Upgrade

00:00:09 ◼   ► From relay, this is Upgrade Episode six hundred and thirty-seven for September September 14th,

00:00:15 ◼   ► 2026.

00:00:16 ◼   ► Today's show is brought to you by Fitbod, Shippaton from Revenue Cat and Notion.

00:00:21 ◼   ► My name is Mike Hurley, and I'm joined by Jason Snow.

00:00:24 ◼   ► Hi, Jason.

00:00:25 ◼   ► Hi, Mike.

00:00:26 ◼   ► Happy birthday to us.

00:00:28 ◼   ► Happy birthday

00:00:30 ◼   ► to us.

00:00:31 ◼   ► Well, it's in a cup we're we're we're a day or two away from

00:00:35 ◼   ► the anniversary of the first episode of Upgrade, which was in twenty fourteen.

00:00:39 ◼   ► So it's twelve years of upgrade.

00:00:41 ◼   ► Wow.

00:00:41 ◼   ► Happy birthday upgrade.

00:00:42 ◼   ► Yes, September sixteenth.

00:00:44 ◼   ► Wow.

00:00:44 ◼   ► September sixteenth.

00:00:45 ◼   ► Yeah, I mean I guess it's always around the time the iPhone comes out,

00:00:49 ◼   ► right?

00:00:49 ◼   ► Like is the is the thing and the iPhone comes out on Friday.

00:00:52 ◼   ► It's like it's always around this time.

00:00:54 ◼   ► It is, it is, because we dropped that episode when I had an embargo

00:00:57 ◼   ► drop for the iPhone six.

00:00:58 ◼   ► iPhone six.

00:01:00 ◼   ► I know.

00:01:01 ◼   ► That just doesn't even feel like it could be bad.

00:01:02 ◼   ► I mean, that's the that's the iPhone that really kind of strapped a rocket

00:01:05 ◼   ► engine to the iPhone and and and made it uh huge and we were

00:01:08 ◼   ► we were right on you could say it was us.

00:01:11 ◼   ► Upgrade.

00:01:11 ◼   ► It was us.

00:01:12 ◼   ► We upgraded.

00:01:13 ◼   ► You know?

00:01:14 ◼   ► I I take it I I withdraw my previous comments.

00:01:16 ◼   ► It was totally us.

00:01:17 ◼   ► We did it.

00:01:18 ◼   ► You're welcome, Tim Cook.

00:01:19 ◼   ► We did it.

00:01:19 ◼   ► Wherever you are.

00:01:21 ◼   ► Wherever you are.

00:01:22 ◼   ► I have a snow talk question for you that comes from Darren who says

00:01:25 ◼   ► it's been about five years, Jason, since you were last asked this Snelltalk question.

00:01:30 ◼   ► What screensaver do you use?

00:01:32 ◼   ► Your answer in twenty twenty one was the Aerial screensaver, but since then the

00:01:36 ◼   ► Macintosh screensaver has come out, I think with Sequoia, which shows the imagery from

00:01:40 ◼   ► the classic Mac OS.

00:01:42 ◼   ► Given the recent launch of Design Team California and how it's put Apple and

00:01:45 ◼   ► Mac history into the spotlight Wow, look at us.

00:01:48 ◼   ► Uh I'm wondering if you've tried this screensaver, if you have any thoughts, if

00:01:52 ◼   ► you may have switched to it.

00:01:53 ◼   ► Yeah, when the Macintosh screensaver came out, I switched to it immediately.

00:01:56 ◼   ► Yep.

00:01:57 ◼   ► It's adorable.

00:01:58 ◼   ► Yep.

00:01:58 ◼   ► The truth is in my current setup, I I don't I basically don't have

00:02:02 ◼   ► a screensaver.

00:02:03 ◼   ► The screen just goes off.

00:02:04 ◼   ► I don't but when sometimes it's on and sometimes I forget when I turned

00:02:10 ◼   ► it off.

00:02:11 ◼   ► Um, 'cause I used to come out here and see the little Macintosh things

00:02:14 ◼   ► and they're adorable.

00:02:15 ◼   ► I love them.

00:02:15 ◼   ► I love that screensaver.

00:02:16 ◼   ► It's great.

00:02:17 ◼   ► It's very good.

00:02:18 ◼   ► It's amazing that they did that somebody made the effort at Apple made the

00:02:22 ◼   ► effort to replay all of those classic icons and things and and system elements

00:02:27 ◼   ► from classic macOS.

00:02:28 ◼   ► Uh so I love that.

00:02:29 ◼   ► I fully endorse it.

00:02:30 ◼   ► But currently, just full disclosure, currently when I go to screensaver on my Mac,

00:02:35 ◼   ► it says never.

00:02:36 ◼   ► Right.

00:02:38 ◼   ► Uh I have it on my s uh the Mac that I'm talking to

00:02:41 ◼   ► you from right now, my recording Mac.

00:02:43 ◼   ► I have the Macintosh one.

00:02:45 ◼   ► Um of course I use the Relay for St.

00:02:48 ◼   ► Jude's screensaver as well on my other Macs.

00:02:51 ◼   ► Oh, I see.

00:02:52 ◼   ► But what I like on this one is I have 'cause I have the

00:02:55 ◼   ► two monitors, right?

00:02:56 ◼   ► I don't need my usual wallpaper on two monitors.

00:02:59 ◼   ► Even for me, that's too much.

00:03:01 ◼   ► Um, and so on my second display I have it where the screensaver turns

00:03:05 ◼   ► into the wallpaper, which I really like that.

00:03:08 ◼   ► You know, like it stops and then it's like on the lo it's like

00:03:11 ◼   ► on a frame.

00:03:12 ◼   ► So I have that and it's the Macintosh one in green.

00:03:14 ◼   ► 'Cause I like the it can vary colors or you can choose a color

00:03:17 ◼   ► and and I like it in green.

00:03:19 ◼   ► So right now I'm looking at I don't even know what I'm looking at

00:03:21 ◼   ► over there.

00:03:22 ◼   ► It's it's like a zoomed in dialogue box or something like that.

00:03:25 ◼   ► It's very cool.

00:03:25 ◼   ► It's great screensaver.

00:03:26 ◼   ► Um one of those like weird things where like Apple does a big kind

00:03:30 ◼   ► of song of dance about his history and then like nothing.

00:03:33 ◼   ► You know, like for no reason they did it and then like we don't

00:03:36 ◼   ► talk about it anymore.

00:03:37 ◼   ► But it's good time.

00:03:38 ◼   ► If you would like to send in a Snell Talk question to help us

00:03:41 ◼   ► open a future episode of the show, just go to upgradefeedback.com and you can

00:03:45 ◼   ► send yours in.

00:03:47 ◼   ► Uh let's take a moment to talk about St.

00:03:49 ◼   ► Jude, because over the weekend, Jason, we hit a huge milestone in our fundraising

00:03:55 ◼   ► campaign.

00:03:56 ◼   ► Uh I'm actually happy that we get to be the first show to talk

00:03:59 ◼   ► about this, that we have now passed five million dollars raised since twenty nineteen

00:04:05 ◼   ► for the kids of St.

00:04:06 ◼   ► Jude.

00:04:07 ◼   ► Incredible.

00:04:07 ◼   ► Like we are actually now at five point one million.

00:04:10 ◼   ► It's been a very big weekend.

00:04:11 ◼   ► Uh this year we uh we're up to three hundred and forty thousand dollars

00:04:16 ◼   ► raised on our seven hundred thousand dollar goal.

00:04:19 ◼   ► It's you know, like I I wrote a little thing on my blog It's

00:04:22 ◼   ► this kind of stuff is very hard to talk about, like 'cause the the

00:04:26 ◼   ► numbers are so astronomical.

00:04:28 ◼   ► But it's just it's such a privilege to have

00:04:35 ◼   ► this collection of podcasters and podcast listeners who in such a short amount of

00:04:42 ◼   ► time could raise such a huge amount of money and I'm so proud of

00:04:48 ◼   ► it.

00:04:48 ◼   ► Um and it's incredible.

00:04:50 ◼   ► Absolutely.

00:04:51 ◼   ► Absolutely you know, it's it's it's hard to believe.

00:04:54 ◼   ► Like it's just yeah, we're all we're so grateful that people out there are

00:04:58 ◼   ► um doing this with us because uh yeah, it's I mean what more can

00:05:02 ◼   ► you say?

00:05:02 ◼   ► But we have to say more because it's only September 14th.

00:05:05 ◼   ► Indeed.

00:05:05 ◼   ► As we know, September lasts more than a month.

00:05:08 ◼   ► It does.

00:05:08 ◼   ► It does.

00:05:09 ◼   ► Even longer than ever.

00:05:10 ◼   ► Uh and why do we do this?

00:05:11 ◼   ► Because it is an estimated that four hundred thousand children around the world get

00:05:15 ◼   ► cancer every year.

00:05:17 ◼   ► When St.

00:05:17 ◼   ► Jude opened back in nineteen sixty-two, childhood cancer was something that was considered incurable.

00:05:23 ◼   ► But since then, St.

00:05:24 ◼   ► Jude has helped push the overall survival rate in America from twenty percent to

00:05:29 ◼   ► more than eighty percent.

00:05:30 ◼   ► They flipped it, which is I love that statistic.

00:05:32 ◼   ► I mean, I will love even more when it's a hundred because that's what

00:05:35 ◼   ► everyone's working at here.

00:05:36 ◼   ► Like a hundred percent survival rate.

00:05:38 ◼   ► That is what we want.

00:05:40 ◼   ► But it is a tremendous undertaking and Saint Jude needs our help.

00:05:44 ◼   ► The generosity of donors like you support cutting edge research that save lives and

00:05:49 ◼   ► ensure that families never receive a bill from St.

00:05:51 ◼   ► Jude for treatment, travel, housing or food because every child deserves a chance to

00:05:56 ◼   ► live their best life and celebrate every moment.

00:05:59 ◼   ► And when you support Saint Jude, you can help make cures possible for kids

00:06:03 ◼   ► with cancer because together we can save more lives.

00:06:06 ◼   ► And when I say that to you, when I say those very simple words,

00:06:09 ◼   ► how could you not want to get involved?

00:06:11 ◼   ► Like kids, no one should have cancer.

00:06:13 ◼   ► Kids should not have cancer.

00:06:15 ◼   ► And we can work together to make sure this doesn't exist, but also in

00:06:19 ◼   ► the meantime, can work together to make sure these kids get the life saving

00:06:23 ◼   ► treatment that they need.

00:06:25 ◼   ► You can help support and lead the sorry, the support that you give leads

00:06:30 ◼   ► to more cures for thousands of children.

00:06:33 ◼   ► And we're inviting you as part of the relay community to help us reach

00:06:36 ◼   ► our fundraising goal this year of seven hundred thousand dollars for Childhood Cancer Awareness

00:06:41 ◼   ► Month.

00:06:42 ◼   ► As always, there are multiple ways to support the campaign.

00:06:44 ◼   ► You can make a donation at saintjude.org/slash relay.

00:06:47 ◼   ► Your donation can unlock some fun rewards for you.

00:06:49 ◼   ► And if you make a donation, why not check whether your employer will match

00:06:53 ◼   ► it to essentially double your donation by clicking the blue search employer button on

00:06:57 ◼   ► the donation summary page.

00:06:59 ◼   ► You can find more information on employer employer matching as well as using a

00:07:02 ◼   ► donor advised fund at saintjured.org slash relay because your support is there tomorrow.

00:07:08 ◼   ► Go to Saint Jude.org slash relay to donate or start a fundraiser of your

00:07:12 ◼   ► own today.

00:07:14 ◼   ► So before we I mean, today is going to be a lot of reflection

00:07:18 ◼   ► on last week and also talking about all the new OS releases that were

00:07:22 ◼   ► are probably rolling out as we're recording, I'm expecting.

00:07:26 ◼   ► If that hasn't started already, it will start shortly.

00:07:29 ◼   ► Shortly.

00:07:29 ◼   ► But before that I wanna do a rumor roundup because there's a couple of

00:07:34 ◼   ► items that I want to talk about.

00:07:35 ◼   ► Yeehaw then.

00:07:36 ◼   ► Yeehaw I say.

00:07:37 ◼   ► Yeah, thank you very much for for you hi hiring me.

00:07:38 ◼   ► I'm be I'm western themed, Mike.

00:07:41 ◼   ► Uh that's actually very important.

00:07:42 ◼   ► Um theme Jailbreak Jason now.

00:07:45 ◼   ► Watch out.

00:07:45 ◼   ► Yes, Jailbreak Jason.

00:07:47 ◼   ► Uh I am bringing my Room around Up t shirt uh for the podcast

00:07:50 ◼   ► that's on as a as a secondary um uh uh uh uh item of

00:07:54 ◼   ► clothing.

00:07:54 ◼   ► I have a whole thing planned.

00:07:55 ◼   ► Uh but this is the Room Around Up.

00:07:57 ◼   ► A quick reminder, this is what I'm gonna do, a quick reminder of the

00:08:00 ◼   ► products that we're still expecting that could come this year that we did not

00:08:04 ◼   ► see last week.

00:08:04 ◼   ► Macroom has put together an article.

00:08:06 ◼   ► And I just wanted to give a brief rundown.

00:08:08 ◼   ► 'Cause there was a possibility of some of these things appearing, but also there's

00:08:11 ◼   ► still a possibility of some of these things coming this year.

00:08:14 ◼   ► So that is an OLED iPad mini, updates to the iMac or MacBook Pro,

00:08:19 ◼   ► maybe to M6 generation, touchscreen MacBook Pro.

00:08:23 ◼   ► Who knows what ship that's gonna have in it at this point?

00:08:26 ◼   ► Uh home pod of a screen, home pod updates.

00:08:29 ◼   ► Mini, etc.

00:08:31 ◼   ► And Apple TV updates.

00:08:32 ◼   ► And I wanted to just kind of check in with you now, you know,

00:08:35 ◼   ► like we had that big event.

00:08:36 ◼   ► Do you think we're gonna see any of these products this year?

00:08:39 ◼   ► Do you think it's possible?

00:08:41 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:08:42 ◼   ► It feels to me You know, I generally Apple has done another press event

00:08:51 ◼   ► in late October, early November, sometimes right around Halloween.

00:08:57 ◼   ► This feels like that's what they're gonna do again.

00:09:00 ◼   ► Um they could do it all sorts of different ways and you know, we'll

00:09:03 ◼   ► see if they change their ways because you y they get on a cycle

00:09:06 ◼   ► and you think you expect what's gonna happen and then they change the cycle.

00:09:09 ◼   ► And so you never know.

00:09:10 ◼   ► But like in the past there's been a come, you know, press come to

00:09:15 ◼   ► New York and see our new thing.

00:09:17 ◼   ► And I wonder if they're gonna do that, especially if they've got all these

00:09:20 ◼   ► home products.

00:09:21 ◼   ► We've been talking about this for a while now.

00:09:23 ◼   ► If they've got a home strategy to unveil, having a an event, having a

00:09:28 ◼   ► place where they bring press, having a maybe even a place to show off

00:09:33 ◼   ► their home vision in some way.

00:09:36 ◼   ► Um that is a thing that they absolutely could do.

00:09:41 ◼   ► And it would benefit from them having a platform to kind of explain what

00:09:44 ◼   ► they're doing, even if it's, you know, a press event and a video, whatever

00:09:48 ◼   ► it is.

00:09:49 ◼   ► Um also they often do Mac and iPad updates this time of year.

00:09:55 ◼   ► So they could do both.

00:09:56 ◼   ► They they really could just jam it all together if they wanted to and

00:09:59 ◼   ► do that in late October, early November.

00:10:00 ◼   ► So if we go on what they've done in the past, I think that's

00:10:03 ◼   ► the most likely scenario is a second announcement that will happen in late October

00:10:07 ◼   ► or early November that would have this stuff in there.

00:10:10 ◼   ► I don't but oh the one that I don't know about is the MacBook

00:10:13 ◼   ► Pro because that that story has from the beginning that story has been they'd

00:10:17 ◼   ► really like to ship it this year, but it might slip to next year.

00:10:20 ◼   ► The only reason I think it might not slip is because remember according to

00:10:25 ◼   ► Mark German that new OLED touchscreen MacBook Pro is not going to have new

00:10:30 ◼   ► chips in it.

00:10:31 ◼   ► It's going to be a new laptop with the M5 Pro and Macs chips

00:10:36 ◼   ► in it which is again not unprecedented.

00:10:38 ◼   ► Apple has done

00:10:40 ◼   ► uh, you know, laptop updates or computer updates where the chips aren't new, but

00:10:45 ◼   ► the design is new.

00:10:47 ◼   ► It's happened.

00:10:48 ◼   ► It doesn't very often, but you could do it.

00:10:50 ◼   ► But but my point is, if you're going if you know that the M

00:10:55 ◼   ► sevens are gonna come down the pike next end of next year, maybe,

00:11:01 ◼   ► with Pro and Max versions that are gonna go in the MacBook Pro, wouldn't

00:11:04 ◼   ► you want to start the clock on that MacBook Pro now?

00:11:07 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:11:07 ◼   ► So that it lasts a year.

00:11:09 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:11:09 ◼   ► As as the latest model?

00:11:11 ◼   ► Would wouldn't you wanna not go into 2027 and then have to announce an

00:11:17 ◼   ► M5 laptop?

00:11:19 ◼   ► Also knowing that an M7 laptop is coming later in the year.

00:11:22 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:11:23 ◼   ► So for that reason, I think if and not not knowing anything else about

00:11:27 ◼   ► the details of this, just to say, I think ideally you'd want that laptop

00:11:32 ◼   ► out now, not in in February.

00:11:35 ◼   ► And if that's the case, maybe we'll see it.

00:11:38 ◼   ► But it it just r report wise, it's always been very vague about when

00:11:41 ◼   ► they were going to do it.

00:11:42 ◼   ► Maybe the vagueness, we don't know.

00:11:43 ◼   ► Maybe the vagueness was actually all about the M6.

00:11:46 ◼   ► And that if they were gonna do the M six Pro and Max, it

00:11:49 ◼   ► would be something that would happen early next year.

00:11:51 ◼   ► But maybe maybe that's it.

00:11:53 ◼   ► But if they just stick to the M five, they don't need to wait

00:11:55 ◼   ► around for a new chip.

00:11:56 ◼   ► They could do it in the fall.

00:11:57 ◼   ► We'll see.

00:11:57 ◼   ► But um I I would be shocked if there aren't announcements at some point

00:12:02 ◼   ► between now and middle of November.

00:12:04 ◼   ► And that's when they do it, because they kinda want to clear the decks

00:12:07 ◼   ► and get all that iPhone stuff out.

00:12:10 ◼   ► And in this in this case, the all that iPhone stuff goes into October,

00:12:15 ◼   ► right?

00:12:15 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:12:16 ◼   ► With the with the duo.

00:12:17 ◼   ► So you almost want to be either you do the event and say, This

00:12:22 ◼   ► is a very exciting event.

00:12:23 ◼   ► The duo is shipping.

00:12:24 ◼   ► And here's our new stuff.

00:12:26 ◼   ► Or you ship the duo, you wait a week or two, early November, you

00:12:31 ◼   ► make your announcement.

00:12:31 ◼   ► But so I th I think it's I think it's pretty just based on

00:12:34 ◼   ► history.

00:12:35 ◼   ► Yeah, see I feel like you there there's a real like I think I

00:12:38 ◼   ► mentioned I may mention this last week too, but uh an an easy thing

00:12:41 ◼   ► to be like, we're gonna show the duo again to the media and a

00:12:46 ◼   ► bunch of stuff, right?

00:12:47 ◼   ► Like that that could work as well as you get that out of the

00:12:50 ◼   ► way and then do another thing.

00:12:51 ◼   ► But if like people were going to want to see this again, they may

00:12:54 ◼   ► have more third party apps that they can show.

00:12:57 ◼   ► And like there could be a an interesting story to have like a second

00:13:01 ◼   ► kind of run at this a month later with some select media.

00:13:04 ◼   ► Maybe they put together a video or whatever.

00:13:06 ◼   ► Like there's um Because one of the things that I'm very interested about is

00:13:12 ◼   ► the iPhone Duo is a meme.

00:13:14 ◼   ► Like it happened.

00:13:16 ◼   ► It's broken out.

00:13:17 ◼   ► People know about this.

00:13:18 ◼   ► I've seen multiple different meme formats about the iPhone Duo, right?

00:13:24 ◼   ► Which is like, you know, one is just people using the image and putting

00:13:28 ◼   ► things inside of the image for like kind of no reason, like brands kind

00:13:31 ◼   ► of like jumping on it in that way.

00:13:33 ◼   ► But then also the kind of like a s a a version of the

00:13:37 ◼   ► like the the meme of like I can't believe we got this before we

00:13:40 ◼   ► got GTA six.

00:13:41 ◼   ► There's like a version of that like I can't believe this happened and now

00:13:44 ◼   ► we have a folding iPhone before it kind of I've seen stuff like that.

00:13:48 ◼   ► So this product has got

00:13:51 ◼   ► some juice and I think that is very good for them because what I'm

00:13:56 ◼   ► not seeing a lot of, although I'm sure it's there, but what I'm not

00:13:59 ◼   ► seeing a lot of is I can't believe how expensive this thing is, which

00:14:03 ◼   ► I saw a lot for the Vision Pro, right?

00:14:05 ◼   ► Where it was like I think people could could not conceive of why that

00:14:08 ◼   ► product might cost the money it costs.

00:14:10 ◼   ► 'Cause that that product doesn't exist in a category most people have any reference

00:14:14 ◼   ► for, but this is a phone and people get it.

00:14:17 ◼   ► Imagine if your phone and your iPad was one thing and I think people

00:14:21 ◼   ► l are excited about that and yeah, it's so i I don't know.

00:14:24 ◼   ► I I don't I don't know if they n I don't think they need

00:14:26 ◼   ► to do it, but I could imagine a scenario where they're like, Come and

00:14:29 ◼   ► look at the duo again media and also here's a bunch of other stuff

00:14:32 ◼   ► that we want to show you.

00:14:33 ◼   ► I could see that too.

00:14:34 ◼   ► So I I I am could be basically a long way around of saying

00:14:37 ◼   ► I agree with you that I think some of this stuff's gonna come.

00:14:39 ◼   ► I don't know what, like I do not know what.

00:14:41 ◼   ► Because like look at the the home part and the Apple T V stuff.

00:14:44 ◼   ► Feels like we've been saying that is a month away for a year.

00:14:47 ◼   ► Right?

00:14:47 ◼   ► Like so I like that I don't really feel like I have a sense

00:14:51 ◼   ► of that.

00:14:51 ◼   ► But there definitely feels like there is the possibility of some some other bits.

00:14:55 ◼   ► Um Um on a completely different track.

00:14:57 ◼   ► A couple of interesting tidbits from Mark German's Power On Newsletter.

00:15:01 ◼   ► Uh Apple is preparing to redesign some of its stores with a renewed focus

00:15:06 ◼   ► on the genius bar, new areas for the classes, which honestly seem like they're

00:15:11 ◼   ► kind of shrinking that down a little bit, and a dedicated place to collect

00:15:15 ◼   ► online orders.

00:15:16 ◼   ► I'm so pleased to hear this.

00:15:18 ◼   ► Uh apparently it's something that's going to be rolling out over the next few

00:15:21 ◼   ► years.

00:15:22 ◼   ► New stores will be built with this in mind.

00:15:24 ◼   ► Existing stores are going to be refit.

00:15:27 ◼   ► Um, they're going to be removing the large video walls that are in most

00:15:30 ◼   ► of their stores.

00:15:31 ◼   ► The genius bar is going to go there where they have those.

00:15:35 ◼   ► So that's actually very prime real estate.

00:15:38 ◼   ► And then also they're gonna be shrinking down the class areas, having some screens,

00:15:43 ◼   ► like some T V stuff.

00:15:44 ◼   ► Um I've seen this in in the Comic Garden store.

00:15:47 ◼   ► They have it kind of like Yeah away.

00:15:48 ◼   ► They've done this to some stores, but this report is they're going to do

00:15:51 ◼   ► this to all the stores.

00:15:53 ◼   ► What what Mark Irma said is is accurate to what I've seen too.

00:15:56 ◼   ► They have done elements of this in some of the newer stores, but this

00:16:00 ◼   ► is a bigger thing, like a even in some of the newer ones.

00:16:04 ◼   ► And this is this is an undoing of Angela Arendt's decisions.

00:16:10 ◼   ► Yes.

00:16:10 ◼   ► Basically.

00:16:11 ◼   ► This is yeah.

00:16:12 ◼   ► This is an undoing of that.

00:16:13 ◼   ► So Ron Johnson's book is coming out this month, I think.

00:16:18 ◼   ► And uh I've been thinking a lot about what happened to Apple Retail after

00:16:23 ◼   ► Ron Johnson.

00:16:25 ◼   ► And um I think

00:16:29 ◼   ► It

00:16:31 ◼   ► I I think i at the Apple of the Twenty Tens,

00:16:36 ◼   ► um

00:16:38 ◼   ► kinda

00:16:40 ◼   ► I think they got a little too

00:16:43 ◼   ► high-end luxury brained.

00:16:45 ◼   ► And that goes for Johnny Ive design stuff and also product decisions.

00:16:50 ◼   ► But I think hiring somebody from Burberry and some of the decisions she made,

00:16:55 ◼   ► they're very highfalutin and and on one level, I appreciate that because Ron Johnson,

00:17:01 ◼   ► his whole idea was model the stores after the concierge desk at a luxury

00:17:08 ◼   ► hotel.

00:17:09 ◼   ► Like he wanted hotel service for retail and not what you'd think of as

00:17:14 ◼   ► standard retail service.

00:17:15 ◼   ► And this is a retail guy, but that was their that so they were

00:17:17 ◼   ► always thinking kinda like that.

00:17:19 ◼   ► But Angela Arends, I don't know.

00:17:21 ◼   ► I just wonder if some of those decisions were uh uh a little unmo

00:17:25 ◼   ► untethered from reality of what Apple was trying to do and that they're trying

00:17:30 ◼   ► to walk it back a little.

00:17:31 ◼   ► Like putting the genius bars back at the back of the store instead of

00:17:34 ◼   ► the screens is what a message that is of undo it, undo, undo Let's

00:17:39 ◼   ► go back to where it was in two thousand ten.

00:17:40 ◼   ► I think essentially they were trying to be a luxury brand with mass market

00:17:44 ◼   ► footfall and you can't do both.

00:17:47 ◼   ► Like you can you can make the Apple stores a luxury thing, but then

00:17:50 ◼   ► they're appointment only.

00:17:51 ◼   ► Like people can't come in and look at stuff anymore.

00:17:53 ◼   ► Like if you want to make it a luxury experience.

00:17:56 ◼   ► Or you lean into the fact that Apple stores are always absolutely full of

00:18:01 ◼   ► people needing things, wanting things, trying things, and then you try and build the

00:18:05 ◼   ► store around that.

00:18:06 ◼   ► And I think they tried to have their cake and eat it and that's

00:18:08 ◼   ► where it fell apart.

00:18:09 ◼   ► So like you go into an Apple store and like you can just go

00:18:12 ◼   ► up to anything, buy anything, but also there's a check out because they don't

00:18:16 ◼   ► have that right.

00:18:18 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:18:18 ◼   ► So th they're they're um it's very interesting.

00:18:20 ◼   ► I feel like they were stabilizing after Angela Arendt left for a while.

00:18:23 ◼   ► And then now they're like actually executing on an idea of what the store

00:18:29 ◼   ► should be.

00:18:29 ◼   ► And it does feel like it's going back to basics in some ways, which

00:18:32 ◼   ► is really great.

00:18:33 ◼   ► By the way, Ron Johnson's book, which is called Shop Different, and you can

00:18:35 ◼   ► roll your eyes at that, but that was actually a uh text from a

00:18:39 ◼   ► Wall Street Journal, I think, or or New York Times full page ad that

00:18:42 ◼   ► Steve Jobs wrote when they launched their retail stores.

00:18:45 ◼   ► So like it's uh it's an unapproved phrase.

00:18:48 ◼   ► It's not just a uh trying to take off on think different.

00:18:51 ◼   ► It's like Steve Jobs wrote shop different.

00:18:53 ◼   ► Uh it comes out next week.

00:18:54 ◼   ► I liked it.

00:18:55 ◼   ► I read it.

00:18:55 ◼   ► It's good.

00:18:56 ◼   ► Um I think it gives you a real perspective into Ron Johnson who's a

00:18:59 ◼   ► very interesting guy.

00:19:00 ◼   ► And also like how how Ron Johnson and Steve Jobs envisioned the Apple retail

00:19:05 ◼   ► at a time, not to get too much into Apple history.

00:19:08 ◼   ► There's probably a whole design in California about this.

00:19:11 ◼   ► You say there's probably a and they're like all the there always is.

00:19:15 ◼   ► There definitely is.

00:19:16 ◼   ► There always is.

00:19:17 ◼   ► It was a time when everybody thought that they were crazy for doing this.

00:19:20 ◼   ► But it was a sure, sure disaster.

00:19:22 ◼   ► And it turned out to actually be one of the smartest things they ever

00:19:25 ◼   ► did.

00:19:25 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:19:25 ◼   ► I would argue.

00:19:26 ◼   ► I think that that Apple doing retail was a vital part of their comeback

00:19:30 ◼   ► because Apple brand in places that people could see it and walk in and

00:19:34 ◼   ► experience it was a huge part of the rehab that that brand had to

00:19:37 ◼   ► go through in the two thousands.

00:19:38 ◼   ► So um anyway, Ron Johnson's book uh is out next week.

00:19:42 ◼   ► But it does feel having read that, I really got some vibes that this

00:19:46 ◼   ► is like they're kind of undoing a lot of the Angela Arends era stuff

00:19:53 ◼   ► and going back to some of the stuff that works and the return of

00:19:57 ◼   ► the genius bar, as well as things like a dedicated pickup in store pickup

00:20:02 ◼   ► area.

00:20:02 ◼   ► Oh my gosh.

00:20:03 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:20:03 ◼   ► Where they're going to be able to and the the report is like they're

00:20:06 ◼   ► going to have a cabinet basically, a wood cabinet because of course it's all

00:20:10 ◼   ► made of wood.

00:20:11 ◼   ► Uh a wood cabinet uh full of preloaded with the online orders.

00:20:16 ◼   ► So that when you come in and say I've got an online order, they

00:20:18 ◼   ► actually can just go over there and open the cabinet and go, oh, here

00:20:20 ◼   ► it is and hand it to you which is that's that's great.

00:20:23 ◼   ► Yep.

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00:22:32 ◼   ► So since last week, this is what I want to uh talk about now.

00:22:36 ◼   ► So kind of Thoughts, feelings, information, things that we'd know now and we didn't

00:22:43 ◼   ► know then.

00:22:44 ◼   ► I would like to start by just saying

00:22:47 ◼   ► I

00:22:49 ◼   ► a significant percentage of my brain is occupied by the iPhone duo right now.

00:22:55 ◼   ► I cannot stop thinking about this phone.

00:22:57 ◼   ► I am so excited to use it.

00:23:01 ◼   ► So what you're saying is if we took Mike.

00:23:04 ◼   ► Yep.

00:23:05 ◼   ► And then we kind of like opened my head up.

00:23:09 ◼   ► You can say cut me open, it's fine.

00:23:11 ◼   ► No, no, no.

00:23:11 ◼   ► We well we're not gonna cut you.

00:23:13 ◼   ► We're gonna just open your head up like a book.

00:23:16 ◼   ► Ah revealing a larger brain of Mike inside.

00:23:20 ◼   ► Yep, yep.

00:23:21 ◼   ► It would be iPhone Duo all the way down.

00:23:23 ◼   ► Yeah, I I know.

00:23:24 ◼   ► It's it's a lot.

00:23:25 ◼   ► It is it is one of the most

00:23:28 ◼   ► complex, interesting product launches by Apple in a long time, magnified by the fact

00:23:36 ◼   ► that it's an iPhone and the iPhone is the most important product they make.

00:23:39 ◼   ► I keep coming back to the iPhone ten myself of like the last time

00:23:45 ◼   ► and and one of the things that's really been making me feel this way

00:23:48 ◼   ► is there's they made a they made a a really great video called Introducing

00:23:51 ◼   ► the New iPhone Duo.

00:23:53 ◼   ► It's an ad, and the ad is kind of riffing on the original iPhone

00:23:57 ◼   ► ads.

00:23:57 ◼   ► Like it's it's the same pacing, it's the same look.

00:24:00 ◼   ► It's somebody's using the phone.

00:24:02 ◼   ► But in in this video and and in all the video that Apple's been

00:24:05 ◼   ► putting out, any kind of like promotional stuff, it looks it's like really shiny

00:24:10 ◼   ► and looks really expensive.

00:24:12 ◼   ► And that's what the iPhone ten looked like.

00:24:14 ◼   ► It looked like an incredibly premium thing, like a piece of jewelry as an

00:24:19 ◼   ► iPhone, kind of, and like also futuristic.

00:24:22 ◼   ► And the duo has all of that in spades.

00:24:25 ◼   ► More so even, like because of just some of the incredible stuff that it's

00:24:28 ◼   ► doing.

00:24:29 ◼   ► So yeah, it I'm you know, it's like I don't know I do not

00:24:34 ◼   ► know at this stage if it's the phone I would want to use as

00:24:39 ◼   ► my iPhone.

00:24:39 ◼   ► Like I d I there is no way I can know this right now.

00:24:43 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:24:43 ◼   ► But what I know is I can't stop thinking about it.

00:24:46 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:24:46 ◼   ► I mean, look, I am a big proponent in

00:24:52 ◼   ► you've gotta, you know

00:24:54 ◼   ► go beyond the hype.

00:24:56 ◼   ► You've gotta spend time with it as a reviewer, right?

00:25:00 ◼   ► Like I'm not gonna believe it until I see it, until I experience it.

00:25:06 ◼   ► But Um the potential here is enormous.

00:25:11 ◼   ► I just don't I don't I just don't know.

00:25:13 ◼   ► And and and what what I keep coming back to is not uh this

00:25:17 ◼   ► is the thing that blows me away, and I I probably mentioned this last

00:25:20 ◼   ► week.

00:25:20 ◼   ► What I keep coming back to is that I'm not as interested in the

00:25:23 ◼   ► hardware as I thought I would be.

00:25:26 ◼   ► I'm interested in the hardware.

00:25:27 ◼   ► The hardware is fascinating.

00:25:28 ◼   ► The hardware is a game changer for the iPhone.

00:25:30 ◼   ► It's just unlike any iPhone ever.

00:25:32 ◼   ► How are they doing this?

00:25:34 ◼   ► How how does it work?

00:25:35 ◼   ► How does it feel?

00:25:37 ◼   ► Uh I have no doubt given Apple's credentials when it comes to hardware that

00:25:41 ◼   ► it's gonna be a very impressive piece of hardware.

00:25:43 ◼   ► We've all sort of agreed that on a hardware basis, Apple's kinda on all

00:25:48 ◼   ► cylinders right now.

00:25:48 ◼   ► They are just they're killing it.

00:25:51 ◼   ► The part that that stops me is the software.

00:25:53 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:25:54 ◼   ► Because this gives me those oh it's Apple doing their thing vibes more than

00:26:02 ◼   ► I felt in a while.

00:26:05 ◼   ► Yes.

00:26:05 ◼   ► Like I agree.

00:26:06 ◼   ► The the

00:26:08 ◼   ► the sense that they could have done less, but they just didn't.

00:26:14 ◼   ► But they could have been like, you know, you open it and it opens,

00:26:19 ◼   ► and then the screen is there.

00:26:20 ◼   ► They're like, no, no, we're gonna reformat all the apps and we're gonna have

00:26:24 ◼   ► an opening animation that makes it seem like you're revealing it like a magic

00:26:29 ◼   ► trick and like uh and then we're gonna build in all this stuff where

00:26:34 ◼   ► you can display things on the back while you're running them on the front

00:26:36 ◼   ► so that people who are looking at the back of the of the phone

00:26:39 ◼   ► will see something different than you and it you you know, you can play

00:26:42 ◼   ► a thing for kids there so that the kids are looking at Snoopy and

00:26:45 ◼   ► therefore they're looking at the camera and and and like uh and it may

00:26:50 ◼   ► not be that great, but like the fact that they did an under display

00:26:54 ◼   ► camera for the first time and that's like number eight on the list of

00:26:58 ◼   ► things.

00:26:58 ◼   ► That is an unbelievable thing that they have done, right?

00:27:00 ◼   ► Because I don't know if we would have expected they would do that.

00:27:03 ◼   ► Most companies have moved away from it, etc etc.

00:27:06 ◼   ► But yes, like they've done that and we're just like ah they also did

00:27:09 ◼   ► the the displays on like we're not even really focusing on this.

00:27:13 ◼   ► It's like ah yeah it's under the I keep coming back to that the

00:27:16 ◼   ► software thing and I know we feel for I was just listening to accidental

00:27:20 ◼   ► tech podcast and like three developers lamenting the fact that this is gonna be

00:27:24 ◼   ► an enormous amount of work for for app developers.

00:27:26 ◼   ► And it is.

00:27:27 ◼   ► There's no doubt about it.

00:27:28 ◼   ► But as a

00:27:31 ◼   ► non-iOS app developer, let's say.

00:27:34 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:27:34 ◼   ► Um, but I'm so excited about it like I love that Apple is doing

00:27:38 ◼   ► new uh new interface stuff to s to solve interesting hardware problems and they

00:27:43 ◼   ► seem to have made their best effort.

00:27:45 ◼   ► And again, Jury's still out.

00:27:47 ◼   ► It's gonna be at least a month and probably a lot more than that

00:27:51 ◼   ► before we really get a handle on this.

00:27:54 ◼   ► But I love their ambition.

00:27:56 ◼   ► They seem to have thought and considered a lot of this stuff.

00:28:00 ◼   ► And it just I that's the part that really gets me.

00:28:03 ◼   ► Cause again, the the magic that Apple brings that makes us like Apple products

00:28:07 ◼   ► is generally because they do great hardware and they build software to work specifically

00:28:12 ◼   ► with the great hardware.

00:28:13 ◼   ► And it that's you get that thing where they're working together.

00:28:16 ◼   ► And I r I just really feel it with this product that this is

00:28:19 ◼   ► not

00:28:21 ◼   ► this is not the kind of product where they're like, well, we did the

00:28:25 ◼   ► minimum.

00:28:25 ◼   ► And and Apple should never be the company where the software is like we

00:28:29 ◼   ► did the minimum to support the hardware.

00:28:31 ◼   ► And yet, at a few points in the last 10 years, 15 years, at

00:28:37 ◼   ► a few points, it has felt like that.

00:28:39 ◼   ► Like the hardware is like oh, let me add them.

00:28:41 ◼   ► We're gonna do this thing.

00:28:42 ◼   ► And then the software's like, well, we can't get to all of your ideas.

00:28:45 ◼   ► Like so many times there's been a release where we've all immediately thought, oh,

00:28:50 ◼   ► what about this?

00:28:50 ◼   ► Could it do this?

00:28:51 ◼   ► Could it do this?

00:28:52 ◼   ► Could it do this?

00:28:52 ◼   ► And the answer is, no, not yet.

00:28:55 ◼   ► Maybe later.

00:28:56 ◼   ► Um, you know, Apple was not going to say maybe later, but it's very

00:28:59 ◼   ► clearly like maybe those features will come in a future OS update.

00:29:02 ◼   ► But you're asking too much.

00:29:04 ◼   ► For this version, we just needed to get it to be functional.

00:29:08 ◼   ► And I I I understand that from a practicality standpoint, but I could also

00:29:12 ◼   ► make the argument that if when you release a product, everybody immediately says, but

00:29:18 ◼   ► what about this?

00:29:18 ◼   ► But what about this?

00:29:19 ◼   ► But what about this?

00:29:19 ◼   ► Could you imagine this?

00:29:20 ◼   ► You could do this with it.

00:29:22 ◼   ► And all of those things are untouched,

00:29:25 ◼   ► you could then make that argument that that is

00:29:30 ◼   ► those are those are obvious misses that for whatever reason they chose not to

00:29:34 ◼   ► take on.

00:29:35 ◼   ► Because if they're obvious to us, they were clearly obvious to Apple, but they

00:29:39 ◼   ► didn't or couldn't do it.

00:29:40 ◼   ► And this product, there are a couple of things that people are what-abouting about

00:29:45 ◼   ► that Apple has said nothing about, which makes me suspicious that there is an

00:29:48 ◼   ► answer and they're just not ready to show it to us.

00:29:51 ◼   ► Or it's answer but it's a point one answer.

00:29:53 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:29:54 ◼   ► Like left handedness.

00:29:55 ◼   ► I I I I have to believe that they have a solution.

00:29:58 ◼   ► They said at one point you can run it in any orientation.

00:30:02 ◼   ► I think that meant the inside.

00:30:04 ◼   ► I know, but like I have to believe that they have I think they

00:30:07 ◼   ► don't have something to show now.

00:30:09 ◼   ► I am not in point that the point one version will have this in

00:30:13 ◼   ► the same way that they tweaked the always on display stuff.

00:30:16 ◼   ► Like

00:30:17 ◼   ► I think they would that that all said,

00:30:21 ◼   ► it's telling that so many of the things that we see that we are

00:30:27 ◼   ► things that we would have been like, Oh but what about this?

00:30:29 ◼   ► Could you do this?

00:30:30 ◼   ► Could you do this?

00:30:30 ◼   ► Let's explore because that's our brains exploring the ramifications of the hardware and and

00:30:37 ◼   ► what it means, like the sensors are in different places and it opens and

00:30:40 ◼   ► it partially opens and things like that.

00:30:41 ◼   ► And I just I I continue to be struck by the fact that most

00:30:45 ◼   ► of that stuff is in it, is done.

00:30:48 ◼   ► Because that that's a good sign.

00:30:51 ◼   ► That's a good sign that they really I and

00:30:54 ◼   ► it also shows how important the iPhone is.

00:30:56 ◼   ► Right?

00:30:57 ◼   ► Like iPhone iPhone at Apple, it's like pull out all the stops.

00:31:00 ◼   ► It doesn't mat iPhone at Apple, highest priority.

00:31:04 ◼   ► Highest priority.

00:31:06 ◼   ► So you mentioned something a minute ago about like the the hardware software thing.

00:31:10 ◼   ► I do feel like maybe when we were anticipating this device, we underestimated the

00:31:15 ◼   ► software.

00:31:16 ◼   ► Like it was kind of like, Oh yeah, it will be like a different

00:31:20 ◼   ► shaped iPhone and it will kind of run in split view on the inside.

00:31:22 ◼   ► Like we just kind of like have Ham waived these things and didn't really

00:31:27 ◼   ► we did not think about this to the level that they have thought about

00:31:32 ◼   ► this, right?

00:31:32 ◼   ► I think is is qu very clear, which is why I think we're so

00:31:36 ◼   ► excited and kind of surprised.

00:31:37 ◼   ► You know, like the idea that all of the app controls move to the

00:31:41 ◼   ► side of the screen is like I'm really pleased that that has happened from

00:31:45 ◼   ► a use case perspective because as they say, like it allows for the content

00:31:50 ◼   ► to have a lot more space, right?

00:31:53 ◼   ► That you can see more because they're making the phone squatter, but if you

00:31:56 ◼   ► don't have any buttons on the bottom, you can see more stuff.

00:31:59 ◼   ► And it's like, that's really clever.

00:32:01 ◼   ► I don't think I would have thought that you were gonna do that based

00:32:04 ◼   ► on the models and the rumors, right?

00:32:06 ◼   ► And so it's like I feel like I will say for me, I underestimated

00:32:10 ◼   ► that.

00:32:10 ◼   ► And I am so happy that I did and that I feel this way

00:32:14 ◼   ► now because now it's like, oh baby, they have like they have rethought iOS.

00:32:20 ◼   ► Like iOS is different.

00:32:23 ◼   ► It's not iPad OS.

00:32:25 ◼   ► It's not the iOS that I'm running on my iPhone Pro.

00:32:28 ◼   ► This is a different version of iOS that does different stuff than anywhere else.

00:32:34 ◼   ► And it's like that is a just as someone who loves to use these

00:32:38 ◼   ► devices, that is an incredibly exciting thing to be able to try.

00:32:42 ◼   ► Like and every time I see a video, because it does seem like Apple

00:32:46 ◼   ► gave like a lot of content creators a lot of time with this device.

00:32:50 ◼   ► It feels like more the there was the hands on area, but it seems

00:32:53 ◼   ► like quite a lot of people got to go and spend more time with

00:32:56 ◼   ► it in content capture environments, right?

00:32:58 ◼   ► They did right, which is which is great because that was always the killer

00:33:01 ◼   ► in the hands on area, was that everybody's doing their complete video content capture

00:33:06 ◼   ► in the hands on area, which is bad for all because it takes forever.

00:33:09 ◼   ► It's a terrible experience.

00:33:10 ◼   ► So so yes.

00:33:12 ◼   ► You got to see um MKBHD and uh like I saw several people and

00:33:18 ◼   ► they're in like quiet quiet spaces.

00:33:21 ◼   ► Yes.

00:33:21 ◼   ► It's like there's

00:33:23 ◼   ► a time.

00:33:23 ◼   ► They've got some setups that look like YouTuber setups.

00:33:25 ◼   ► Like they had a very MKBHD setup with like the paper rolls, like the

00:33:29 ◼   ► color paper.

00:33:29 ◼   ► It looked like he just shot it in his studio.

00:33:31 ◼   ► But it's like that's great.

00:33:32 ◼   ► But what like I mentioned that it's just like the more content that's come

00:33:36 ◼   ► out, the more intriguing it all looks to me.

00:33:39 ◼   ► It's like, oh, that's how that app looks.

00:33:41 ◼   ► It looks like this.

00:33:42 ◼   ► It's like, oh, that looks like that.

00:33:44 ◼   ► It's fascinating.

00:33:45 ◼   ► Like it really very much is.

00:33:46 ◼   ► And also they put out some developer videos.

00:33:48 ◼   ► I really recommend one of them.

00:33:50 ◼   ► Um it's called Design for iPhone Duo.

00:33:53 ◼   ► This is a very high level video and it just talks through some of

00:33:57 ◼   ► the thinking and the concepts and like w what good UI will look like

00:34:02 ◼   ► on this device.

00:34:02 ◼   ► It's very approachable for anyone.

00:34:04 ◼   ► I recommend watching that video.

00:34:05 ◼   ► I'll put a link in the show notes to it.

00:34:07 ◼   ► It's like another look at like This is how software works on this.

00:34:10 ◼   ► It's like, oh wow.

00:34:11 ◼   ► There's some other videos they put out a bunch.

00:34:13 ◼   ► I started watching them.

00:34:14 ◼   ► They started coding it, whatever my head, and that's fine, it's not for me.

00:34:17 ◼   ► But just like the pure design stuff was was fascinating to look at.

00:34:23 ◼   ► But they're also doing a really good job communicating it in a way that

00:34:26 ◼   ► I am really happy about because John Turnus gave interviews.

00:34:29 ◼   ► Yes.

00:34:30 ◼   ► He did a few.

00:34:31 ◼   ► There's a two part interview with Tom's Guide and Tech Radar.

00:34:34 ◼   ► They kind of like collabed and split them up.

00:34:37 ◼   ► If you will remember I made a lot of noise last year about a

00:34:42 ◼   ► video of the iPhone Air where Joss threw a phone at Lance Ulonoff and

00:34:48 ◼   ► he dropped it.

00:34:49 ◼   ► Uh this is it's them.

00:34:51 ◼   ► It's it's Lance and Smart Monk.

00:34:54 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:34:54 ◼   ► They they seem to have this like double act thing that they do.

00:34:58 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:34:58 ◼   ► Well they're both that they're both uh it's the same company, I think.

00:35:02 ◼   ► But they they do the future, so it's like a it's like a thing

00:35:04 ◼   ► where it's two publications.

00:35:06 ◼   ► They come together to like to to make these videos.

00:35:08 ◼   ► But anyway, they've done one with John Turnus and Jaws.

00:35:13 ◼   ► They did two videos.

00:35:14 ◼   ► They're great.

00:35:15 ◼   ► And it's I feel like I have been given exactly what I was asking

00:35:20 ◼   ► for, which is the CEO of Apple talking about the products, just talking about

00:35:25 ◼   ► the products.

00:35:26 ◼   ► You can tell.

00:35:27 ◼   ► And I'm not I'm not saying that this is that Tim Cook is bad.

00:35:32 ◼   ► And I'm not saying that this is a key part of the job of

00:35:37 ◼   ► being a good CEO of a giant company like Apple.

00:35:41 ◼   ► It's way more complicated than that.

00:35:43 ◼   ► However, To have the CEO of Apple

00:35:47 ◼   ► talk in detail about their product philosophy that drove a particular product in a

00:35:54 ◼   ► particular direction and the process they went through to build the product and to

00:36:01 ◼   ► understand why the product needed to be the way it was.

00:36:04 ◼   ► Like I know he was the head of hardware when they went through this

00:36:07 ◼   ► whole process.

00:36:08 ◼   ► So he's obviously closer to it.

00:36:09 ◼   ► Now he's the CEO.

00:36:10 ◼   ► I get it.

00:36:11 ◼   ► But I'm just gonna say Tim Cook came in as a VP of operations.

00:36:15 ◼   ► He never had his hands down in products.

00:36:17 ◼   ► He had people who told him, Oh, we're working on a Tim and here's

00:36:21 ◼   ► a thing and all of that.

00:36:21 ◼   ► But like it was not his thing.

00:36:23 ◼   ► And you could tell, and he did a good job at the level that

00:36:27 ◼   ► he was willing to to go.

00:36:31 ◼   ► But Turnus in that interview with Tech Radar and Tom's Guide, like

00:36:37 ◼   ► you can tell he is legitimately able to explain how Apple, not just why,

00:36:46 ◼   ► but how Apple made this product.

00:36:48 ◼   ► So it's how and why and what it's for and why it's not like

00:36:52 ◼   ► the competition and why they approach things differently.

00:36:55 ◼   ► And is it marketing and PR?

00:36:56 ◼   ► Of course it is.

00:36:57 ◼   ► But like doesn't matter.

00:36:58 ◼   ► There's a level of detail there that I just again, as somebody who cares

00:37:02 ◼   ► about product, I love to see it.

00:37:06 ◼   ► I love to see it.

00:37:08 ◼   ► It's confident, comfortable.

00:37:10 ◼   ► See that's the difference.

00:37:12 ◼   ► Tim Cook was a confident man in talking about Apple.

00:37:16 ◼   ► He was not comfortable talking about the products.

00:37:18 ◼   ► I never felt that he was comfortable talking about products.

00:37:23 ◼   ► Which is an

00:37:24 ◼   ► PR disaster, right?

00:37:25 ◼   ► Where we're talking about the magic mouse.

00:37:27 ◼   ► Like it was just

00:37:29 ◼   ► they must have regretted that so much.

00:37:30 ◼   ► It was not his thing.

00:37:31 ◼   ► It was not his thing.

00:37:32 ◼   ► He he The great thing about Tim Cook is that he honored the skills

00:37:36 ◼   ► of the product people and he was not one of them and he did

00:37:39 ◼   ► not pretend to be one of them.

00:37:40 ◼   ► But John Turnus is one of them.

00:37:42 ◼   ► He is.

00:37:42 ◼   ► And and letting him you know brag a little bit about the iPhone Duo

00:37:47 ◼   ► and the decisions they made.

00:37:48 ◼   ► That's the part that I love.

00:37:50 ◼   ► I love the fact it's like, why did you make this product now after

00:37:54 ◼   ► years of having folding phones on the market?

00:37:57 ◼   ► And what, you know, what do you do that is different and that that

00:38:02 ◼   ► offers something different here, a different take on this.

00:38:05 ◼   ► And he had

00:38:07 ◼   ► detailed answers that I that that also I'll say, you know, I think are

00:38:12 ◼   ► true.

00:38:12 ◼   ► Mm-hmm.

00:38:13 ◼   ► But they're detailed answers that that do a great PR job as well of

00:38:17 ◼   ► portraying Apple in the light of being this kind of innovative company that thinks

00:38:22 ◼   ► deeply and is very creative and is uh all the things that they want

00:38:25 ◼   ► to portray.

00:38:26 ◼   ► And there is a comfortableness in him and also that he is the CEO.

00:38:31 ◼   ► He's a little bit he's he c he's kind of relaxed in what he

00:38:34 ◼   ► can say, I think.

00:38:35 ◼   ► 'Cause like he refers to

00:38:37 ◼   ► foldable and foldables.

00:38:39 ◼   ► And I don't feel like That is what Apple marketing would like him to

00:38:44 ◼   ► use that phrase.

00:38:45 ◼   ► But it's like, we're just gonna use it because he's the boss.

00:38:47 ◼   ► Like it was funny to me.

00:38:48 ◼   ► I said this to you when you sent this video to me.

00:38:50 ◼   ► And like, I think it's funny that Jaws is still there.

00:38:54 ◼   ► Right?

00:38:54 ◼   ► Like and I understand it but it's also like, you know, it Jaws acts

00:38:59 ◼   ► as a handler, right?

00:39:00 ◼   ► We see him a lot with Craig and we used to see him with

00:39:03 ◼   ► Turnus, but it's like

00:39:06 ◼   ► Jaws can't tell John what to say.

00:39:08 ◼   ► Like it's like it's still like a funny thing.

00:39:09 ◼   ► And there's some moments in the interview where Joss is really deferring to John

00:39:15 ◼   ► in a really interesting way where you can see the relationship has rightly changed,

00:39:20 ◼   ► right?

00:39:21 ◼   ► Like and yeah, it's just like it's it's as as for as interesting as

00:39:24 ◼   ► it is to hear them talk about the products, we also find it really

00:39:27 ◼   ► interesting to watch just kind of like the cupertinoology of it all.

00:39:32 ◼   ► It's useful to have a PR person there because John Turnus may not be

00:39:36 ◼   ► as up to speed on what the official marketing whatever is on something.

00:39:42 ◼   ► And so you've PR person there.

00:39:44 ◼   ► So you can always turn to them and be like, you know, you you

00:39:47 ◼   ► should take this Jaws because you got this you got the pattern down because

00:39:49 ◼   ► they do absolutely have like these are the words we're using, these are the

00:39:52 ◼   ► phrases we're using, these are our talking points.

00:39:54 ◼   ► And you're right, the CEO can just do whatever.

00:39:57 ◼   ► But like as the CEO, you don't step in it.

00:40:00 ◼   ► So you want your you want to support a PR person.

00:40:03 ◼   ► You don't wanna let down the marketing team, right?

00:40:05 ◼   ► Like you don't wanna don't wanna make them seem foolish or whatever.

00:40:08 ◼   ► You're

00:40:09 ◼   ► and they've spent a lot of time thinking about it.

00:40:12 ◼   ► At the same time you do have latitude to talk about it in ways

00:40:15 ◼   ► that um you know that we in the in the media love where it's

00:40:19 ◼   ► a little off script.

00:40:21 ◼   ► I agree.

00:40:22 ◼   ► Jaws I mean I've I've

00:40:25 ◼   ► I've been working with Jaws on stuff for ages since the nineties.

00:40:29 ◼   ► Like he was the PR, the PR guy for um or product manager for

00:40:32 ◼   ► um product marketing manager for PowerBooks back in the nineties, right?

00:40:36 ◼   ► Like I've known Jobs a long time professionally.

00:40:41 ◼   ► It does the dynamic has changed to the point.

00:40:43 ◼   ► And also there are just a couple of ways the Turnus approached the product

00:40:46 ◼   ► stuff that were that felt new and the way Jaws approached it felt like

00:40:52 ◼   ► old.

00:40:53 ◼   ► Like just just like the way Apple kinda did it.

00:40:55 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:40:55 ◼   ► And I I do kind of wonder if I I I had I had

00:40:58 ◼   ► that same thought that you did, We just I'm not sure Jaws um should

00:41:02 ◼   ► be there for for that kind of an interview.

00:41:04 ◼   ► I get why he's there, but it feels a little bit like the old

00:41:08 ◼   ► and the new are mixing and that the going forward, I mean obviously going

00:41:12 ◼   ► forward, I I don't know how long Greg Joswiak's gonna stay in this role,

00:41:15 ◼   ► but it's not gonna be for the length of the tenure of John Turnus

00:41:19 ◼   ► as CEO.

00:41:19 ◼   ► So it just I I just got that moment of like, Oh, this is

00:41:22 ◼   ► transitional.

00:41:23 ◼   ► That's sort of that's sort of how I felt about it.

00:41:24 ◼   ► It's like it's nice to have Jaws there.

00:41:26 ◼   ► Jaws is supporting John Turnus uh in doing what he wants to do, but

00:41:30 ◼   ► at the same time, it also feels a little transitional, like ultimately this is

00:41:35 ◼   ► not um how the John Turnus era is gonna go, but this is where

00:41:38 ◼   ► we are today.

00:41:39 ◼   ► My favorite exchange, which I think exemplifies the thing that me and you are

00:41:43 ◼   ► so excited about, is Lance Yulinov is talking about the variable aperture on the

00:41:48 ◼   ► 18 Pro and says like you know, like, oh, you know, the fact that

00:41:53 ◼   ► this is actually physical, that's moving parts inside of the iPhone.

00:41:57 ◼   ► I've had people reach out already and they're like, Oh, is this gonna be

00:42:00 ◼   ► a problem?

00:42:01 ◼   ► Like, you know, how is that gonna be reliability wise?

00:42:03 ◼   ► And Turner stops and says, There's always moving parts in the iPhone camera.

00:42:06 ◼   ► We have the sensor that moves, we have like the focus that moves.

00:42:09 ◼   ► Like there's always been moving parts.

00:42:10 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:42:11 ◼   ► But this is what we do.

00:42:12 ◼   ► And it was like, Oh my like it's like, yes.

00:42:15 ◼   ► It's like he knows how it works, he can answer it, and then give

00:42:19 ◼   ► the confidence of like, you don't have to worry about stuff like that with

00:42:22 ◼   ► us.

00:42:23 ◼   ► Like, we've got that under control.

00:42:24 ◼   ► And then Jaws then kind of jumps in and gives Turners all this credit

00:42:29 ◼   ► for product quality.

00:42:30 ◼   ► It's like in the time that John has been here, the product quality has

00:42:33 ◼   ► only gotten better.

00:42:34 ◼   ► It's like that that that was a part where the double act worked well,

00:42:37 ◼   ► but like the thing for me that was just the most impressive was he

00:42:40 ◼   ► could immediately answer back with a deep product knowledge.

00:42:44 ◼   ► Yes.

00:42:44 ◼   ► And just and then also take the confidence into it as well.

00:42:48 ◼   ► It was it was brilliant.

00:42:49 ◼   ► It really was what do you think optical image stabilization is?

00:42:52 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:42:52 ◼   ► But like it's it's easy to forget that because you can't see it, but

00:42:57 ◼   ► we can see the aperture moving, right?

00:42:59 ◼   ► Like you so it's more kind of in your mind.

00:43:01 ◼   ► 'Cause I had had also had that thought of like, oh, that does add

00:43:05 ◼   ► some like risk or complexity.

00:43:07 ◼   ► But it's as you said, they know how to do it.

00:43:09 ◼   ► Brilliant.

00:43:10 ◼   ► Okay.

00:43:10 ◼   ► All right.

00:43:11 ◼   ► Really good.

00:43:12 ◼   ► Really good.

00:43:12 ◼   ► I I really recommend people watch uh these interviews.

00:43:16 ◼   ► Um it's kind of like in two parts.

00:43:17 ◼   ► One's about the products and then there's another part that's kind of just about

00:43:21 ◼   ► like John Turners being CEO.

00:43:23 ◼   ► Like they're they're both really good.

00:43:24 ◼   ► And I'm super pleased because this is exactly what I wanted and I feel

00:43:27 ◼   ► like we're gonna we're gonna get it.

00:43:28 ◼   ► Is there anything else that's been on your mind uh since the event uh

00:43:32 ◼   ► other than just the iPhone duo and say John Turnus?

00:43:35 ◼   ► Hmm, not really.

00:43:36 ◼   ► It's really I mean Don Turnus doesn't fill my mind as much as uh

00:43:40 ◼   ► he does yours, I know.

00:43:41 ◼   ► I know.

00:43:41 ◼   ► I think about him a lot, can't help it.

00:43:43 ◼   ► I know you do.

00:43:44 ◼   ► But um I I I just I've been thinking about the duo and how

00:43:49 ◼   ► it's gonna launch and I guess the thing that I keep coming back to

00:43:54 ◼   ► is there's a lot of people who are the very, very smart people.

00:43:59 ◼   ► You know the the there's that um the marshmallow experiment where you like give

00:44:04 ◼   ► a you give a kid or an animal or whatever a marshmallow, and if

00:44:07 ◼   ► they don't eat the marshmallow for a certain amount of time, they get another

00:44:11 ◼   ► marshmallow.

00:44:12 ◼   ► And it's uh it's it's a self-control measure, right?

00:44:15 ◼   ► Which is like A lot of a lot of kids will just eat the

00:44:19 ◼   ► marshmallow.

00:44:20 ◼   ► I I just want this marshmallow, I have a marshmallow.

00:44:21 ◼   ► But it's like but if you don't eat the marshmallow, you'll marshmallow.

00:44:24 ◼   ► And they're like, I don't care, I want to eat the marshmallow.

00:44:26 ◼   ► Okay.

00:44:27 ◼   ► Um

00:44:29 ◼   ► iPhone Duo is a little like that.

00:44:31 ◼   ► Where like this iPhone Duo is the marshmallow.

00:44:34 ◼   ► The iPhone Duo is a marshmallow

00:44:36 ◼   ► because because it's a it is first generation hardware running, first generation software essentially,

00:44:43 ◼   ► with apps that are going to be not updated or updated a in very

00:44:48 ◼   ► briefly for a few weeks in ways that at the moment those developers get

00:44:51 ◼   ► their hands on it, they're gonna go, oh no, not this.

00:44:55 ◼   ► And it's gonna be a rough ride for a little while.

00:44:59 ◼   ► So, as a tech enthusiast and reviewer who loves riding that cutting edge and

00:45:06 ◼   ► learning what the all the rough spots are, I can't wait to have my

00:45:11 ◼   ► hands on this thing.

00:45:13 ◼   ► But

00:45:14 ◼   ► that's because my job is to eat the marshmallow.

00:45:17 ◼   ► Uh I I think all those people who are like, maybe next year.

00:45:21 ◼   ► I saw I saw a bunch of people were like, this looks really interesting.

00:45:24 ◼   ► I might get it.

00:45:25 ◼   ► Th the second one.

00:45:27 ◼   ► Like, I think it's a really h healthy attitude.

00:45:29 ◼   ► Cause as amazing as this product seems like it's gonna be, make no mistake,

00:45:35 ◼   ► that first year is gonna be wild.

00:45:37 ◼   ► It's gonna be a wild ride.

00:45:39 ◼   ► And and your apps are gonna be all over the place.

00:45:43 ◼   ► Have you seen what non optimized apps look like, like apps built on the

00:45:47 ◼   ► twenty six SDK?

00:45:48 ◼   ► Have you seemed it?

00:45:49 ◼   ► They're just they're pillow boxed.

00:45:52 ◼   ► Well, I mean that's what happened with the iPhone ten, right?

00:45:54 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:45:54 ◼   ► I uh non iPhone ten apps we're you you don't launch them and you'd

00:45:58 ◼   ► be like, Oh no.

00:45:59 ◼   ► So there is an element of that.

00:46:00 ◼   ► Like if you don't I mean all it building with the twenty seven SDK

00:46:03 ◼   ► will stop that, but then the apps might look really weird, like non optimized.

00:46:08 ◼   ► But if the apps built with twenty six, they're just like pillow boxed.

00:46:11 ◼   ► It's incredible.

00:46:12 ◼   ► And so yes, there is going to be Yeah.

00:46:15 ◼   ► A ton of weird stuff.

00:46:16 ◼   ► And I will just say I have I am and have always been a

00:46:19 ◼   ► marshmallow eater.

00:46:20 ◼   ► The reason that we're that I am here is because I have always eaten

00:46:24 ◼   ► the marshmallow.

00:46:25 ◼   ► Uh and that that's that's what I love to do.

00:46:27 ◼   ► So it is, by the way, uh the Stanford marshmallow experiment.

00:46:32 ◼   ► Does that make a difference?

00:46:33 ◼   ► Because like the Stanford Prison Experiment.

00:46:36 ◼   ► Oh God.

00:46:37 ◼   ► Really messed up psychological things happen at Stanford, that's all I'm saying.

00:46:40 ◼   ► Anyway.

00:46:40 ◼   ► Okay.

00:46:40 ◼   ► I feel like there's some some college beef.

00:46:42 ◼   ► Uh I'm I'm unfolding.

00:46:44 ◼   ► Is that the r are they the red shirt people?

00:46:46 ◼   ► Take off that red shirt.

00:46:49 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah.

00:46:50 ◼   ► Fair enough.

00:46:52 ◼   ► This episode is brought to you by Shippaton, the global hackathon for builders launching

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00:48:01 ◼   ► relay.

00:48:03 ◼   ► It's time for the BTAS.

00:48:06 ◼   ► And this is the special one where it's not they're not really betas anymore.

00:48:10 ◼   ► They are actually shipping operating systems because today is the day of the twenty-seven

00:48:17 ◼   ► releases.

00:48:18 ◼   ► I believe that all of that I can say correctly that it is iOS

00:48:23 ◼   ► twenty seven, Mac OS twenty seven, watch OS twenty seven, iPad OS twenty seven,

00:48:27 ◼   ► and TV OS twenty seven.

00:48:29 ◼   ► I don't think I've missed anything.

00:48:30 ◼   ► I don't think so.

00:48:31 ◼   ► That sounds about right.

00:48:32 ◼   ► There will also be, I'm sure, new firmware for AirPods and and stuff like

00:48:36 ◼   ► that that that rolls out today.

00:48:38 ◼   ► Of course.

00:48:40 ◼   ► Actually s I say somebody's reviewing that.

00:48:42 ◼   ► I don't know who, but someone out there is definitely reviewing it.

00:48:45 ◼   ► Talking about reviews, you have reviewed Mac OS twenty-seven for six colors.

00:48:50 ◼   ► Um it mac OS twenty-seven Golden Gate.

00:48:53 ◼   ► Vision OS, I did forget one.

00:48:54 ◼   ► Thank you, Zoe Zoe.

00:48:55 ◼   ► Vision OS 27 is also out today.

00:48:57 ◼   ► How could I forget Vision OS?

00:49:00 ◼   ► I should install Vision OS twenty seven.

00:49:02 ◼   ► Actually, I haven't I haven't played with that.

00:49:03 ◼   ► I didn't better on this time.

00:49:05 ◼   ► Um

00:49:07 ◼   ► overall, how do you feel about Golden Gate?

00:49:11 ◼   ► Well it's funny.

00:49:13 ◼   ► I mean, it's good.

00:49:14 ◼   ► It is right and wrongs, many of which were perpetrated last year.

00:49:18 ◼   ► Yep.

00:49:19 ◼   ► It has some um

00:49:24 ◼   ► like speaking of writing wrongs, one of the one of the wrong that macOS

00:49:28 ◼   ► has had for a while is that they've had two different places where that

00:49:31 ◼   ► you could type things uh in order to do searches and commands and stuff.

00:49:34 ◼   ► There was Spotlight and Siri and they were different and in different places.

00:49:38 ◼   ► And now there's just one place that i is is Spotlight and Siri.

00:49:42 ◼   ► Um they improved Spotlight some more by doing the new indexing that's across all

00:49:47 ◼   ► the twenty-seven operating systems.

00:49:49 ◼   ► And then they obviously um rolled in Siri AI, which works pretty well.

00:49:56 ◼   ► There are places where Serie AI is still a little weird on the Mac,

00:49:59 ◼   ► and I think that that's just gonna be a thing that uh

00:50:04 ◼   ► it's always just gonna be it's for a while it's gonna be a little

00:50:06 ◼   ► bit more.

00:50:06 ◼   ► Yeah, well I think on the Mac the challenge is that the the Mac

00:50:08 ◼   ► you really have a a a wide variety of of file types and your

00:50:12 ◼   ► file, a lot of data on your hard drive.

00:50:15 ◼   ► And sometimes I expect it to do a better job.

00:50:20 ◼   ► Like it feels, and this is, I think, an iOS centric decision, which I

00:50:26 ◼   ► understand because the iPhone is the most important product.

00:50:29 ◼   ► But sometimes it feels like Siri AI is better at searching my messages and

00:50:34 ◼   ► my emails and my calendar.

00:50:36 ◼   ► Than it is searching files on my Mac hard drive.

00:50:38 ◼   ► And when I'm on the Mac, especially, like

00:50:42 ◼   ► I want it, if I ask it a question about something, I don't want

00:50:46 ◼   ► it to search my mail and my messages.

00:50:48 ◼   ► I want it to search my files, right?

00:50:50 ◼   ► And I wanted to look inside my PDFs and my text files and whatever

00:50:55 ◼   ► else it needs to in order to get an answer to my question.

00:51:00 ◼   ► And I don't know, it doesn't seem to be as good at that as

00:51:04 ◼   ► it is at that high-level stuff that is also the stuff that it's good

00:51:06 ◼   ► at on the iPhone.

00:51:07 ◼   ► I understand why, but I wish I wish that was a little bit better.

00:51:11 ◼   ► But the bottom line is like Siri AI works.

00:51:14 ◼   ► I right?

00:51:15 ◼   ► That's an overall twenty seven thing is it works.

00:51:17 ◼   ► It it if you ask it a question that's like a general knowledge question,

00:51:21 ◼   ► it gives you an answer and it's a good answer.

00:51:24 ◼   ► And it's the same kind of thing that you get from Gemini or Chat

00:51:26 ◼   ► GPT or something like that.

00:51:28 ◼   ► Like I I don't think you need to turn to something else.

00:51:30 ◼   ► They did exactly what they needed to do, which is get Siri to be

00:51:33 ◼   ► functional to do that.

00:51:34 ◼   ► So you don't have to turn to a third party tool.

00:51:37 ◼   ► And um and then yeah, I I had a few great moments.

00:51:41 ◼   ► I've mentioned this before, but like after asking it to look through my messages

00:51:45 ◼   ► archive to give me an answer so that I don't have to scroll back

00:51:48 ◼   ► over three months to find out when I said, hey, let's do this uh

00:51:53 ◼   ► to a particular messages group.

00:51:55 ◼   ► And it just finds it and says, this is what you said.

00:51:59 ◼   ► That's great.

00:52:00 ◼   ► Like when that happens, it's really magical.

00:52:02 ◼   ► I just feel like they need to do a little bit more of that.

00:52:06 ◼   ► And on the Mac, what I really wanted to see is like I just

00:52:09 ◼   ► wanted to be more capable of and intelligent at using my files that are

00:52:15 ◼   ► on my Mac, resident on my Mac as part of it too.

00:52:19 ◼   ► Yeah, I've I have not used Golden Gate yet, so I'm intrigued to see

00:52:23 ◼   ► how that kind of feels to me too.

00:52:25 ◼   ► I I think you're you're Your estimation I expect is correct, right?

00:52:28 ◼   ► It's like they they built it for the iPhone and the Mac benefits, but

00:52:32 ◼   ► what that means is files are not a consideration to the same degree, right?

00:52:36 ◼   ► The same yeah.

00:52:37 ◼   ► Um which I mean that is the benefit the Mac has over iOS so

00:52:41 ◼   ► I hope that they can push this further is that on iOS you have

00:52:46 ◼   ► to connect with the applications, right?

00:52:48 ◼   ► Like the you you they Siri AI has to connect with the applications to

00:52:52 ◼   ► get the data.

00:52:53 ◼   ► But on the Mac the majority of the data is just living in the

00:52:56 ◼   ► file system.

00:52:57 ◼   ► So it should in theory be easier for them to do some stuff.

00:53:00 ◼   ► Right.

00:53:00 ◼   ► And it's in Spotlight.

00:53:02 ◼   ► That's the thing.

00:53:02 ◼   ► But I think that the I think that the AI

00:53:06 ◼   ► model is not as focused

00:53:09 ◼   ► this is just a gut feeling.

00:53:10 ◼   ► It it seems like, you know, they trained an AI model to do a

00:53:14 ◼   ► lot of searches in the very specific Apple apps.

00:53:17 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:53:18 ◼   ► And and and then there's like I think that's how you would start.

00:53:21 ◼   ► Right?

00:53:21 ◼   ► That that's how you're gonna start.

00:53:22 ◼   ► And I get it.

00:53:23 ◼   ► The thing is is like this is absolutely a one point oh product.

00:53:26 ◼   ► It is like it is a beta.

00:53:28 ◼   ► It is it is nice completely detached from the series that we heard before.

00:53:33 ◼   ► Like it is not the same thing.

00:53:34 ◼   ► No.

00:53:35 ◼   ► It just shares a name.

00:53:36 ◼   ► They started over, like they really started over and you can feel it.

00:53:40 ◼   ► You can feel it in a bunch of weird ways on on different platforms.

00:53:43 ◼   ► Like you can feel it in that On my Apple Watch, it takes longer

00:53:47 ◼   ► to start a timer than it used to.

00:53:49 ◼   ► It makes me so mad.

00:53:50 ◼   ► Now I have noticed that it got better during the beta process.

00:53:53 ◼   ► But I I think what it's doing, it knows when you asked, and it

00:53:57 ◼   ► it takes a while to start the timer, but it sets

00:54:01 ◼   ► back to the moment that like 'cause there was a time in the beta

00:54:04 ◼   ► where I wasn't doing this very reliably.

00:54:06 ◼   ► And and I'd and I've been doing some timing of this, like with stop

00:54:09 ◼   ► with like stopwatches and stuff.

00:54:11 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:54:11 ◼   ► Uh but it's gotten good at it, but it's slow and you can feel

00:54:15 ◼   ► like, oh okay, it's like there's some stuff that's different here.

00:54:18 ◼   ► But yes, it's like if you imagine this is a one point oh product

00:54:21 ◼   ► to be like, okay, a great one point five would be doing a better

00:54:26 ◼   ► job at search my file system.

00:54:27 ◼   ► You need yeah, that's that's it is is the next steps are obviously other

00:54:31 ◼   ► apps that are contributing data to the spotlight index.

00:54:35 ◼   ► And especially again on the Mac being aware that there's uh I mean there's

00:54:41 ◼   ► a file index on your iPad and your iPhone too, but on the Mac

00:54:44 ◼   ► it's even more important because the Macs tend to be the places where there's

00:54:47 ◼   ► an enormous amount of information that's in the file system and having because f

00:54:53 ◼   ► and because finders at the center of it all.

00:54:55 ◼   ► And being more aware of being able to extract information.

00:54:59 ◼   ► Like I had that happen.

00:55:00 ◼   ► I asked it a question about can like can you find my tax ID

00:55:05 ◼   ► for my business?

00:55:05 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:55:06 ◼   ► And What it ended up doing on the Mac was saying,

00:55:11 ◼   ► Well, I've got some PDFs here.

00:55:14 ◼   ► I mean it was not stupid.

00:55:15 ◼   ► It said, I've got some PDFs here that say tax information that it probably

00:55:22 ◼   ► have it in it.

00:55:24 ◼   ► And I thought, well, this is good in that they do, but it's bad

00:55:30 ◼   ► in the sense that this is a PDF.

00:55:33 ◼   ► Look inside and find the tax information in the PDF text.

00:55:40 ◼   ► You should be able a tax ID, like it's a form.

00:55:44 ◼   ► You should be able to look at the form.

00:55:46 ◼   ► It's got a very specific format of text.

00:55:48 ◼   ► You should be able to look and say, is this like there is so

00:55:52 ◼   ► much more it should be doing.

00:55:54 ◼   ► And instead, what it seems to have done is a file name search.

00:55:57 ◼   ► And again, it was a smart file name search.

00:56:00 ◼   ► And so I applaud that it found a file that did contain my business

00:56:03 ◼   ► tax ID.

00:56:04 ◼   ► Great.

00:56:05 ◼   ► But it's a PDF.

00:56:07 ◼   ► It's not a lockbox.

00:56:08 ◼   ► It is a PDF with text in it that's not password protected or anything.

00:56:13 ◼   ► Like just look.

00:56:15 ◼   ► And that's the stuff where I think, oh, I've hit the wall.

00:56:17 ◼   ► And you're 1.0 beta essentially.

00:56:20 ◼   ► But also it's what are they prioritizing?

00:56:23 ◼   ► Like zipping through a lot of files local to a Mac is not their

00:56:27 ◼   ► priority.

00:56:27 ◼   ► It's very clear.

00:56:28 ◼   ► That's fine, but they need to get there.

00:56:30 ◼   ► Because as a Mac user, you know, the one question is so many of

00:56:33 ◼   ► the 27 features are the same across all operating systems.

00:56:36 ◼   ► Why am I writing a Mac review?

00:56:38 ◼   ► Why is uh Dan Morin writing uh an iOS review?

00:56:41 ◼   ► And in some ways, it's because the Using an iPhone or an iPad versus

00:56:47 ◼   ► using a Mac, those features all manifest a little differently.

00:56:50 ◼   ► And this is a good example where I feel like the Mac

00:56:55 ◼   ► I expect more from my results on the Mac here.

00:56:58 ◼   ► And I'm not really getting them.

00:57:00 ◼   ► Um, but you're right, it is a beta.

00:57:02 ◼   ► It's they're still working it out.

00:57:04 ◼   ► Um since you mentioned Siri AI, I'll mention my most frustrating thing about Siri

00:57:07 ◼   ► AI right now is on my Apple Watch, I have a standard procedure, which

00:57:11 ◼   ► is I have a list called shopping list in reminders and I say put

00:57:14 ◼   ► milk on my shopping list.

00:57:15 ◼   ► And the entire summer that's been broken and it's still broken.

00:57:18 ◼   ► I have a shop a list called shopping list.

00:57:20 ◼   ► And if I ask on my Apple Watch to add an item to my

00:57:23 ◼   ► shopping list, it says, you don't have a list called shopping list.

00:57:27 ◼   ► Would you like me to create one?

00:57:28 ◼   ► And I have a list called shopping list.

00:57:30 ◼   ► And in fact, sometimes if I say yes, please create it, it creates a

00:57:34 ◼   ► new list called shopping list.

00:57:36 ◼   ► And I and I yesterday I actually moved all my things to the new

00:57:40 ◼   ► shopping list list that it created.

00:57:43 ◼   ► And then I did the two and I suspect this is what's happening.

00:57:46 ◼   ► I did the two things that I do with that list, which is I

00:57:48 ◼   ► pinned it to the top and I shared it with Lauren.

00:57:52 ◼   ► And then I said, great, add yogurt to my shopping list.

00:57:55 ◼   ► And you know what?

00:57:56 ◼   ► You don't have a list named shopping list.

00:57:59 ◼   ► Would you like me to create one?

00:58:01 ◼   ► And I'm sorry.

00:58:01 ◼   ► So so the my review, my very brief review of Watch OS 27 is

00:58:07 ◼   ► uh and Siri AI on Watch OS twenty seven is they screwed it up

00:58:11 ◼   ► and they need to fix it and it's bad.

00:58:14 ◼   ► And I would actually say if you rely on Siri commands on your Apple

00:58:18 ◼   ► Watch, don't update to twenty-seven because the thingy we feared, which is by putting

00:58:23 ◼   ► a more complex Siri on the Apple Watch, you're gonna ruin the Apple Watch,

00:58:29 ◼   ► is true.

00:58:30 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:58:30 ◼   ► And so I'm not gonna I'm not gonna pull the punch on that one.

00:58:33 ◼   ► They've blown it with Siri on the Apple Watch.

00:58:36 ◼   ► Fascinated to see how Siri AI feels on the new ones.

00:58:40 ◼   ► And I am worried that it's going to feel good on the new ones.

00:58:44 ◼   ► And terrible on ones.

00:58:46 ◼   ► Because I have an Ultra Two and it's slow.

00:58:49 ◼   ► Like it is slow.

00:58:51 ◼   ► Like sometimes it's fine, but sometimes it is not.

00:58:54 ◼   ► And like there are things that take way longer than they should take.

00:58:58 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:58:59 ◼   ► And so I'm using my Apple Watch less and less for talking to Siri,

00:59:02 ◼   ► which is a shame because I'm trying to talk to Siri more and more.

00:59:06 ◼   ► I don't mind using my Apple Watch to talk to Siri AI and having

00:59:10 ◼   ► it have to be a delay because it's got to go to the cloud

00:59:13 ◼   ► or it's got to go to my phone.

00:59:14 ◼   ► I don't mind.

00:59:15 ◼   ► I don't love it, but I don't mind it.

00:59:17 ◼   ► But the stuff that doesn't, the stuff that used to be really good and

00:59:20 ◼   ► fast on my Apple Watch, that are the some of the primary interactions I

00:59:25 ◼   ► have with my Apple Watch.

00:59:27 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:59:28 ◼   ► If those are all broken and or very slow,

00:59:33 ◼   ► it's a flop.

00:59:34 ◼   ► Like that is a regression that cannot be allowed to exist.

00:59:37 ◼   ► So whoever's doing that needs to work on it.

00:59:40 ◼   ► They need to do better because the the it's bad.

00:59:42 ◼   ► It's It's just bad.

00:59:43 ◼   ► A fascinating detail Syria AI on the watch that people might not have thought

00:59:47 ◼   ► about, right?

00:59:47 ◼   ► So like one of the sh the selling features is you can go back

00:59:51 ◼   ► to your old conversations, right?

00:59:53 ◼   ► So you can open the Siri AI up and you can read the conversations

00:59:57 ◼   ► that you've had on your iPhone and on your watch.

01:00:00 ◼   ► You cannot ask follow-up questions on the watch.

01:00:03 ◼   ► You can only do that on the iPhone.

01:00:05 ◼   ► So like if you go into a previous conversation, you can read it, but

01:00:09 ◼   ► you cannot interact with it further.

01:00:11 ◼   ► And I find that a fascinating decision that I think is saying something, but

01:00:16 ◼   ► I'm not sure what it's saying.

01:00:17 ◼   ► You know what I mean?

01:00:18 ◼   ► It's like, why can't I do this?

01:00:19 ◼   ► I can do this on my iPhone, I can ask things on my Apple

01:00:23 ◼   ► Watch, but once that conversation's over, it is over.

01:00:26 ◼   ► Like you can't uh if there is a way to do it, I can't

01:00:29 ◼   ► find it.

01:00:30 ◼   ► There's no buttons, I've long pressed it.

01:00:32 ◼   ► Like it seems like that's the end.

01:00:34 ◼   ► And you can sometimes press show more so you can read more of the

01:00:37 ◼   ► conversation, but it's like all you can do is read it.

01:00:40 ◼   ► You can't continue to interact with it.

01:00:43 ◼   ► And yeah, I I think that and there was a there was a story

01:00:47 ◼   ► that came out that the new Apple Watches have more RAM in them, which

01:00:51 ◼   ► is fascinating because the prices are the same.

01:00:54 ◼   ► But they've the and I'm I'm really intrigued.

01:00:57 ◼   ► I'm I I have an Apple Watch on order.

01:00:59 ◼   ► So next week, uh yeah, n on Monday's episode next week, I will follow

01:01:04 ◼   ► up on this.

01:01:05 ◼   ► I will I will try it out and I'll follow up on this.

01:01:07 ◼   ► Uh to see like does it feel much different on the series twelve compared

01:01:11 ◼   ► to my Ultra Two?

01:01:13 ◼   ► I believe the Ultra Two and Ultra Three probably have like basically the same

01:01:16 ◼   ► system on a chip.

01:01:17 ◼   ► Like I know that they didn't seem to change them uh very much or

01:01:21 ◼   ► like in not in significant ways.

01:01:23 ◼   ► So I'll follow up on that.

01:01:24 ◼   ► But um Golden Gate got a lot of visual changes that you seem to

01:01:28 ◼   ► to be overall really pleased about.

01:01:30 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:01:30 ◼   ► They fixed a bunch of stuff.

01:01:31 ◼   ► The um

01:01:33 ◼   ► the all the windows feel a little more rectangular.

01:01:37 ◼   ► The the the corner radiuses are consistent and tighter.

01:01:42 ◼   ► Um I guess you texted this to me this morning.

01:01:45 ◼   ► My joke is that the like that there's like the circle king was was

01:01:49 ◼   ► cursing Tahoe the tyranny of the circle king where everything was just really weirdly

01:01:54 ◼   ► rounded.

01:01:55 ◼   ► And the moment you you update to Golden Gate, you notice, oh, my windows

01:02:00 ◼   ► are rectangles now with little curved edges.

01:02:02 ◼   ► Whereas in Tahoe they're like

01:02:05 ◼   ► weirdly curved at the edges in a way that just I didn't, you know,

01:02:10 ◼   ► uh you use Tahoe for a year and you kinda internalize it and then

01:02:12 ◼   ► you go to Golden Gate and you're like, Oh, that's very different.

01:02:16 ◼   ► And the you know, the sidebar there was a lot of liquid glass logic

01:02:20 ◼   ► being applied under Tahoe, where it was like, Well because this is a layer

01:02:23 ◼   ► of glass, the sidebar needs to be another layer of glass on top.

01:02:26 ◼   ► And so that they would like put the sidebar on a window and they'd

01:02:29 ◼   ► inset it because they had to show that there's another layer of glass.

01:02:32 ◼   ► And like it made sense logically for the metaphor, but it was a complete

01:02:38 ◼   ► disaster in terms of how it looked.

01:02:40 ◼   ► And in in Golden Gate, it's like, nope.

01:02:42 ◼   ► Sidebars go to the edge of the window.

01:02:44 ◼   ► Like they're r they're all the way to the edge.

01:02:47 ◼   ► They they have a different background that you can tell they're a sidebar, but

01:02:50 ◼   ► they are no longer like a weird glass panel on floating on top of

01:02:56 ◼   ► a a a gap in the window or something like this.

01:02:59 ◼   ► So th that's a lot better and the icons are colored now so in

01:03:02 ◼   ► the sidebar so they stand out in a way that they didn't.

01:03:05 ◼   ► The toolbars are are bars now in in a lot of apps.

01:03:09 ◼   ► In Tahoe, the toolbars were just buttons.

01:03:11 ◼   ► The toolbars were like a conceptual space, if you will.

01:03:15 ◼   ► Where sort of like imagine that there could be a bar here but instead

01:03:18 ◼   ► there isn't.

01:03:18 ◼   ► But there are still buttons that float there.

01:03:21 ◼   ► And in uh in Golden Gate, uh there's a bar up there.

01:03:24 ◼   ► It may be semi-transparent, but like you can see it.

01:03:28 ◼   ► It's a bar, and then there are buttons that are on it.

01:03:31 ◼   ► And that is uh thumbs up.

01:03:34 ◼   ► It's uh it's very good.

01:03:35 ◼   ► Icons are nicer, they all look better because they changed that way.

01:03:38 ◼   ► Icons are are composited.

01:03:40 ◼   ► Um the stop light buttons are a little glassy now, they're not quite aqua,

01:03:44 ◼   ► but uh they actually I think they're cute.

01:03:46 ◼   ► I think they're nice.

01:03:47 ◼   ► They are well defined.

01:03:49 ◼   ► Um and there's that slider.

01:03:51 ◼   ► So I've been running all summer with it dead center of uh liquid glass

01:03:55 ◼   ► or not liquid glass.

01:03:56 ◼   ► Um to the right it gets more opaque.

01:04:00 ◼   ► I may not now that I take all my review screenshots, I may conduct

01:04:05 ◼   ► a small ceremony later today or perhaps even right now and slow slide the

01:04:09 ◼   ► opacity slider slightly to the right to make it a little more opaque.

01:04:13 ◼   ► Mm-hmm.

01:04:14 ◼   ► Not all the way.

01:04:15 ◼   ► All the way, I think, is too much, but I make my make yeah,

01:04:18 ◼   ► okay.

01:04:18 ◼   ► It is done.

01:04:19 ◼   ► Um there it is.

01:04:20 ◼   ► I feel better already.

01:04:21 ◼   ► Oh, he's done but they've got that

01:04:24 ◼   ► Oh it's good.

01:04:25 ◼   ► Yeah, that was it.

01:04:25 ◼   ► This is it.

01:04:26 ◼   ► This is uh you know, amen.

01:04:27 ◼   ► The the the slider's been slid.

01:04:30 ◼   ► So uh yeah, it's uh it just looks a lot better and it's more

01:04:34 ◼   ► consistent.

01:04:34 ◼   ► And for some people, some people didn't Some people cared a lot.

01:04:38 ◼   ► I I am in the interesting position of having liked Tahoe despite the visual

01:04:44 ◼   ► problems because they added so many productivity features.

01:04:48 ◼   ► And and I complain about like Siri AI rolls out and it seems to

01:04:52 ◼   ► be prioritizing data that's on iPhones and Macs too, but like there's all this

01:04:57 ◼   ► other kind of data on Mac and Siri AI isn't as good at that.

01:05:00 ◼   ► I think as a Mac user, you get used to being a second-class citizen

01:05:04 ◼   ► a little bit.

01:05:06 ◼   ► But like you know, there there are moments where you you want the you

01:05:10 ◼   ► want them to aspire to do more.

01:05:11 ◼   ► You want them to to try a little harder to make this thing.

01:05:15 ◼   ► Show me that you love me.

01:05:17 ◼   ► Yeah, a little bit like it it still matters and you're still not doing

01:05:20 ◼   ► it quite

01:05:22 ◼   ► right.

01:05:23 ◼   ► And and I just I want more of that sometimes.

01:05:27 ◼   ► I'm excited to try Golden Gate.

01:05:29 ◼   ► I am because I I haven't I haven't used it at all yet so

01:05:31 ◼   ► I'm expecting it.

01:05:32 ◼   ► That's the that's the beauty of it is Tahoe, this is sort of the

01:05:37 ◼   ► point I was making.

01:05:37 ◼   ► Tahoe did that in a way that Golden Gate doesn't.

01:05:40 ◼   ► Golden Gate feels like it's mostly, you know, things imported from other operating systems.

01:05:44 ◼   ► Tahoe had a bunch of great stuff that was max stuff.

01:05:47 ◼   ► So if you skip Tahoe because you were so sensitive to it, good news.

01:05:53 ◼   ► You go to Golden Gate, you get all the productivity boosts of Tahoe.

01:05:57 ◼   ► You get the whole new spotlight approach that they did.

01:06:00 ◼   ► You get built-in clipboard history for the first time.

01:06:03 ◼   ► There's other improvements to the menu bar and to and to shortcuts and like

01:06:09 ◼   ► there's a lot of other stuff there that was in Tahoe that was really

01:06:11 ◼   ► nice because it was sort of like doing a solid for Mac users.

01:06:17 ◼   ► And

01:06:18 ◼   ► there's less in Golden Gate, but if you skip Tahoe, you'll those two and

01:06:22 ◼   ► you'll be even happier.

01:06:23 ◼   ► So those people are gonna be, you know, John Gruber, John Syracusa, people like

01:06:26 ◼   ► that are gonna be uh into it because there's a like I think for

01:06:30 ◼   ► a Mac user, Tahoe was a great release, except the fact that it was

01:06:33 ◼   ► uh incredibly ugly.

01:06:34 ◼   ► And I would make the argument that even there I think Mac users dodged

01:06:37 ◼   ► a bullet because if they had really worked hard to implement liquid glass, it

01:06:41 ◼   ► would have been worse.

01:06:42 ◼   ► So maybe the halfway implementation was the best case scenario, but they've backed out

01:06:48 ◼   ► a lot of that stuff and it just it it looks a lot better

01:06:50 ◼   ► too.

01:06:50 ◼   ► It does feel like Golden Gate has gotten some of the treatment that you

01:06:54 ◼   ► wanted Mac OS to get for twenty six.

01:06:57 ◼   ► Right.

01:06:57 ◼   ► Like when we were leading up to that, the idea of there being a

01:07:00 ◼   ► redesign, you kept saying like you hope that that someone actually sits down and

01:07:04 ◼   ► like thinks about how do you apply this to the Mac.

01:07:07 ◼   ► And it didn't really feel like that was the case.

01:07:10 ◼   ► It was just like, we're just gonna take this and put it on.

01:07:12 ◼   ► We're gonna think about it.

01:07:14 ◼   ► We're just gonna do it.

01:07:15 ◼   ► And it feels like this one.

01:07:17 ◼   ► They've they've straightened some stuff out, but they've also added things that are not

01:07:21 ◼   ► in like like the the stoplight controls, right?

01:07:24 ◼   ► Like they've got a fun st they they've tr they've tr done something with

01:07:28 ◼   ► it, which is extra.

01:07:29 ◼   ► It's not needed, but it's like well if we have this liquid liquid glass,

01:07:32 ◼   ► why don't we make this look more fun and and and hark them back

01:07:36 ◼   ► to OS ten, right?

01:07:37 ◼   ► Like they're doing something with it.

01:07:40 ◼   ► It's it's almost kinda aquay in its way.

01:07:42 ◼   ► And yeah, I think they have had another year and I think this has

01:07:47 ◼   ► been a year where they've been spending time wondering about all the things that

01:07:51 ◼   ► liquid glass did wrong.

01:07:52 ◼   ► And any redesign is gonna be like that.

01:07:54 ◼   ► Like bottom line, this was inevitable.

01:07:57 ◼   ► There'll be like, oh, there was a backlash to liquid glass.

01:07:59 ◼   ► And And that's why they did it.

01:08:01 ◼   ► Friends, there was always gonna be a backlash to liquid glass because there's always

01:08:06 ◼   ► a backlash to redesigns.

01:08:07 ◼   ► Always a hundred percent of the time, there's always a backlash to redesigns.

01:08:11 ◼   ► And what happens in the next year is you try to deal with all

01:08:15 ◼   ► of the issues and fix your redesign to be better than it was a

01:08:21 ◼   ► year ago.

01:08:22 ◼   ► And that is what the 27 OS do.

01:08:25 ◼   ► Part of that process clearly was was realizing all of those limitations on the

01:08:30 ◼   ► Mac side that didn't really get the attention that they they needed in the

01:08:34 ◼   ► moment in in Tahoe and applying a bunch of those now.

01:08:39 ◼   ► So some of that stuff's picked from iOS and some of that stuff is

01:08:41 ◼   ► very Mac specific in nice ways.

01:08:44 ◼   ► So yeah, it's good.

01:08:45 ◼   ► It's it's a lot better.

01:08:48 ◼   ► Um I I just wanted to touch on this.

01:08:51 ◼   ► It was like a funny thing 'cause I'd kind of mostly forgotten that this

01:08:55 ◼   ► was a twenty seven thing, which is the photo stuff.

01:08:58 ◼   ► Just the like the Apple intelligence editing features.

01:09:01 ◼   ► I don't really feel like there's anything to say that we haven't said before.

01:09:06 ◼   ► But is there anything you wanted to touch on with these?

01:09:09 ◼   ► You know, like extend and reframe and um cleanup.

01:09:14 ◼   ► They haven't changed a lot in the betas.

01:09:16 ◼   ► Um I would say cleanup is better than it was, right?

01:09:20 ◼   ► That's the nice thing.

01:09:21 ◼   ► Cleanup is better than it was.

01:09:22 ◼   ► And it was pretty good, but it's better at I mean the problem with

01:09:26 ◼   ► cleanup is you need to replace whatever you clean up with a better background

01:09:29 ◼   ► and the the AI model it uses now is better.

01:09:32 ◼   ► There's actually two models that'll let you use the old model.

01:09:34 ◼   ► I I forget what they even call the the two modes.

01:09:37 ◼   ► One of them is like this will run locally and be okay.

01:09:39 ◼   ► And the other one is this we're gonna send a private cloud compute and

01:09:41 ◼   ► it's gonna be way better.

01:09:42 ◼   ► And it is way better.

01:09:43 ◼   ► Um, extend

01:09:46 ◼   ► it's great, but you should use it judiciously and it makes things up.

01:09:49 ◼   ► So like don't overextend.

01:09:51 ◼   ► Also, sometimes you're I need to extend this down a little bit, and it's

01:09:54 ◼   ► like no, I won't go down.

01:09:55 ◼   ► I'm like, why?

01:09:56 ◼   ► I like I need a little more of these people's legs right now.

01:09:59 ◼   ► And they're like, no, not gonna do it today.

01:10:01 ◼   ► I'm like, I don't know why it does that.

01:10:03 ◼   ► I don't know why sometimes it just refuses that.

01:10:06 ◼   ► And then the other thing is it will confabulate.

01:10:08 ◼   ► I, you know, I took a bunch of pictures from my son's graduation and

01:10:11 ◼   ► I'm like, they're standing in front of Odson Stadium and I I I make

01:10:14 ◼   ► it a little taller and suddenly the stadium has this like weird roof on

01:10:18 ◼   ► it that wasn't there before, that doesn't exist in reality.

01:10:20 ◼   ► And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no no.

01:10:22 ◼   ► I like you need to watch because it will do weird stuff sometimes.

01:10:27 ◼   ► But if you do a little bit just because you need a little more

01:10:29 ◼   ► headroom or whatever, it's good.

01:10:31 ◼   ► It does a good job with that.

01:10:32 ◼   ► And the and the repositioning thing I would say look, every every tick you

01:10:36 ◼   ► do to reposition

01:10:39 ◼   ► uh that image,

01:10:42 ◼   ► it's it's gotta render more fake stuff.

01:10:46 ◼   ► And the more you move it, the faker your image gets.

01:10:49 ◼   ► And it gets really fake and weird after a while.

01:10:52 ◼   ► So that feature, I don't love it.

01:10:55 ◼   ► If you really need it, card it out, give it a try.

01:10:58 ◼   ► This is true for all the features, but especially that one.

01:11:00 ◼   ► Give it a try.

01:11:02 ◼   ► But you may end up just saying, forget it.

01:11:05 ◼   ► And and that that that's just the truth of it is it's not that

01:11:07 ◼   ► good because it has to make up things it can't see.

01:11:09 ◼   ► What would be really great?

01:11:11 ◼   ► No to Apple and everybody else who works on this kind of stuff.

01:11:15 ◼   ► You know what happens when I shoot pictures of my family in front of

01:11:18 ◼   ► the stadium after the graduation ceremony?

01:11:21 ◼   ► I take 50 pictures.

01:11:25 ◼   ► A really nice photo alteration algorithm would be able to look at the whole

01:11:32 ◼   ► group, identify pictures that were from the same location at the same time, and

01:11:37 ◼   ► maybe somehow, I'm not a scientist.

01:11:42 ◼   ► Use the other photos to inform what's in the photos, right?

01:11:46 ◼   ► Like the idea, like there's another photo that shows what ha what the roof

01:11:50 ◼   ► is like of the stadium maybe you could use that knowledge.

01:11:54 ◼   ► These algorithms, at least the ones Apple's using, they're not good enough for that

01:11:58 ◼   ► right now.

01:11:58 ◼   ► But maybe someday they'll be good for that.

01:12:00 ◼   ► Anyway, I clean up is way better.

01:12:02 ◼   ► That cloud cleanup is really good and um not perfect, but good.

01:12:05 ◼   ► And the extend again I think extend is good.

01:12:08 ◼   ► I just wish it was well, it's not even that.

01:12:11 ◼   ► It's be careful.

01:12:12 ◼   ► Be careful.

01:12:13 ◼   ► Don't overuse it because

01:12:16 ◼   ► the more you use it on an image, the further you extend, like the

01:12:21 ◼   ► less reality is attached to the image, the further you get away from the

01:12:24 ◼   ► frame.

01:12:25 ◼   ► But it can do some amazing work.

01:12:26 ◼   ► It really can.

01:12:28 ◼   ► One last thing before we move on.

01:12:31 ◼   ► Describe a shortcut and describe an extension are new features.

01:12:37 ◼   ► These are Apple dipping its toe into user vibe coding of functionality in Mac

01:12:44 ◼   ► OS and iOS.

01:12:46 ◼   ► And I just want to say, they're limited, but they totally work.

01:12:52 ◼   ► That the idea that you can say every morning at six AM, um, look

01:12:59 ◼   ► at my, you know look at my email or or or check the weather

01:13:03 ◼   ► and t and tell me what the weather's gonna be like today.

01:13:07 ◼   ► And it will build you a shortcut that will run on a schedule that

01:13:10 ◼   ► will do exactly that.

01:13:11 ◼   ► And if it doesn't quite right, you can literally put in the box and

01:13:15 ◼   ► say, No, it needs to do this too, or whatever.

01:13:17 ◼   ► And then it'll rewrite that shortcut and do it again.

01:13:21 ◼   ► It doesn't use third party actions.

01:13:23 ◼   ► It's very, you know, kind of simple, but it works.

01:13:26 ◼   ► And it's a great like hint at what you could do to ultimately wire

01:13:32 ◼   ► it into Siri AI and say, I I don't even need to go into

01:13:35 ◼   ► shortcuts.

01:13:36 ◼   ► I can just tell my phone I want to do this and it knows

01:13:38 ◼   ► that that actually is a feature in shortcuts and it will build it for

01:13:41 ◼   ► you and all of that.

01:13:42 ◼   ► That is where we're And that's great.

01:13:43 ◼   ► Like you should be able to treat your phone as an agent, I guess,

01:13:47 ◼   ► and say, Build this, do this thing for me.

01:13:49 ◼   ► And it builds it in the background for you.

01:13:51 ◼   ► That's great.

01:13:51 ◼   ► And then describe extension.

01:13:53 ◼   ► I spent all summer uh with this feature thinking, like, how am I gonna

01:13:56 ◼   ► use this?

01:13:57 ◼   ► And I And the thing is, if there's a thing that annoys you on

01:14:00 ◼   ► a web page, you could describe an extension to make it go away or

01:14:04 ◼   ► add something that isn't there.

01:14:05 ◼   ► And so I did this for a couple different websites where on the title

01:14:09 ◼   ► bot we use for for um for relay to suggest titles in the Discord

01:14:14 ◼   ► for members.

01:14:15 ◼   ► Um there's an archive page.

01:14:17 ◼   ► So if you're looking at the what titles were suggested for this show, but

01:14:20 ◼   ► it's rolled off because there's another show that's on the air.

01:14:23 ◼   ► There's a link you can use to get to the archive.

01:14:27 ◼   ► And every time I need to get to the archive, I can't remember what

01:14:29 ◼   ► the link is.

01:14:30 ◼   ► And it's not linked to anywhere on the page.

01:14:32 ◼   ► So I described an extension that said in the in the titles on this

01:14:36 ◼   ► on this page, the titles page, titles.relay.fm

01:14:40 ◼   ► Add an item at the top that links to the archive.

01:14:44 ◼   ► And here's the link.

01:14:45 ◼   ► And it was like great.

01:14:47 ◼   ► Here's an extension.

01:14:48 ◼   ► And now that page for me has that link in it.

01:14:52 ◼   ► That's awesome.

01:14:53 ◼   ► And then I did that with uh Straw Poll, which I use for scheduling.

01:14:56 ◼   ► They're they do two different kinds of scheduling for pot for uh Straw poll.

01:14:59 ◼   ► And I only use one for podcasts and I always click on the wrong

01:15:02 ◼   ► one.

01:15:02 ◼   ► 'Cause they're like like schedule meeting or tick a poll or whatever and like

01:15:06 ◼   ► the one I want to do to schedule a meeting is take a poll,

01:15:09 ◼   ► not schedule a meeting, which is very frustrating to me because what I'm doing

01:15:11 ◼   ► is scheduling a meeting.

01:15:12 ◼   ► But if I click schedule a meeting, I get the wrong thing.

01:15:15 ◼   ► And so I described an extension that said, hide that link that I don't

01:15:22 ◼   ► I always click on and I don't want.

01:15:25 ◼   ► And anytime any link on this page links to that, redirect it to the

01:15:31 ◼   ► other one because I want the other one.

01:15:33 ◼   ► And it took a minute.

01:15:35 ◼   ► And And now my straw poll experience is way better.

01:15:39 ◼   ► So anyway, people should try those features.

01:15:42 ◼   ► If you ever if you update here, think about it.

01:15:45 ◼   ► Like if you're ever frustrated and you're like, I wish this thing did this

01:15:48 ◼   ► webpage behaved differently, it doesn't have to to be a big grand plan.

01:15:52 ◼   ► It could be something as simple as hide this item or show this item

01:15:55 ◼   ► or rewrite this item.

01:15:57 ◼   ► Um but that that's really great.

01:15:59 ◼   ► So it's a it's a toe in the water.

01:16:02 ◼   ► Uh but I feel like it they're both encouraging signs of Apple saying, What

01:16:07 ◼   ► if we let and ultimately wire them up to Siri AI, right?

01:16:10 ◼   ► And say, What what if ultimately you just ask your device, can you fix

01:16:13 ◼   ► this?

01:16:13 ◼   ► And it'll fix it for you.

01:16:15 ◼   ► And it's not wired up right now, but it will be and it'll get

01:16:17 ◼   ► better and it'll extend to other areas and I'm excited by that.

01:16:21 ◼   ► So you mentioned Siri AI again.

01:16:23 ◼   ► Yes.

01:16:23 ◼   ► And so I'm gonna do what I've been doing, I think, for the whole

01:16:26 ◼   ► beta cycle so far, which is to keep telling people things that I'm with

01:16:30 ◼   ► Siri AI that are surprising to me because I I want to encourage people

01:16:35 ◼   ► to try it because I do think that it it can surprise you.

01:16:38 ◼   ► And like and I I'm still in this phase where I'm convincing myself to

01:16:42 ◼   ► ask questions of it because I think to myself, I would like to know

01:16:46 ◼   ► this piece of information.

01:16:47 ◼   ► I should ask Siri.

01:16:48 ◼   ► Siri's not gonna know, but then I ask and Siri knows.

01:16:50 ◼   ► And so like I want to give you a couple more examples of things

01:16:54 ◼   ► that it has given me in the last few days that I think have

01:16:57 ◼   ► been really great.

01:16:58 ◼   ► So one of the things that I've really tried to start getting into my

01:17:01 ◼   ► head is that Siri AI is almost like an enhancement to my memory because

01:17:07 ◼   ► there is information that I know I have been told, but I don't know

01:17:12 ◼   ► what it is and I don't know where to find it.

01:17:14 ◼   ► Like this is an experience that I have a lot.

01:17:16 ◼   ► And I don't have other people are like this, but I know it's like

01:17:19 ◼   ► I know I had a conversation, I know I had an email, but it's

01:17:22 ◼   ► like I don't know I don't even know where to begin looking for this

01:17:25 ◼   ► information but I know I have been told this information via my iPhone.

01:17:30 ◼   ► So it's like wouldn't it be great if my iPhone could do this?

01:17:32 ◼   ► So one of these is my brother changes jobs a lot and has done

01:17:37 ◼   ► it the last few years, has been doing different roles in different places.

01:17:40 ◼   ► And I was seeing him this weekend and I couldn't remember the details of

01:17:44 ◼   ► his newest job.

01:17:45 ◼   ► Now maybe I'm a bad brother.

01:17:47 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:17:48 ◼   ► But I was able to ask Siri AI to give me this information and

01:17:52 ◼   ► it did.

01:17:52 ◼   ► And what I liked is it found different pieces of information from different family

01:17:58 ◼   ► group chats and was able to put that into one view of like, it's

01:18:03 ◼   ► this, he does this, and he started at this point.

01:18:05 ◼   ► It's like brilliant.

01:18:06 ◼   ► That is everything I needed to know.

01:18:08 ◼   ► But I could get more if I wanted because I could have the conversation,

01:18:11 ◼   ► right?

01:18:11 ◼   ► Another a couple of years ago, I bought some new sneakers and I couldn't

01:18:16 ◼   ► remember the name of the model of the of this sneaker from the brand,

01:18:21 ◼   ► the color that I bought or the size.

01:18:24 ◼   ► Like and the reason I say this is because I bought a bunch of

01:18:28 ◼   ► different ones at the same time.

01:18:29 ◼   ► Size is easy to get.

01:18:30 ◼   ► That was in my shoe, but I was wearing my shoe at the time.

01:18:34 ◼   ► So I didn't want to take my shoe off to look.

01:18:37 ◼   ► But there was other parts of information that I needed.

01:18:39 ◼   ► So I asked Siri to go and find like what was and I didn't

01:18:43 ◼   ► even give it the brand.

01:18:44 ◼   ► I was like, what was the the what were the details of the last

01:18:47 ◼   ► pair of sneakers that I bought?

01:18:49 ◼   ► And it gave me the information that I needed and was also able to

01:18:54 ◼   ► tell me, because I bought three pairs in different sizes and one of them

01:19:00 ◼   ► was a different brand.

01:19:01 ◼   ► And it could say you returned this one and you returned this one, but

01:19:05 ◼   ► you kept this one.

01:19:06 ◼   ► And the reason it knows this is because it can see all the emails,

01:19:10 ◼   ► right?

01:19:10 ◼   ► So it's you bought this, this and this, and then I can see you

01:19:13 ◼   ► had returns for this and this, so you kept this one.

01:19:16 ◼   ► It's like that is a complex series of searches, right?

01:19:20 ◼   ► Like for me to do myself, I'm sitting there, I'm searching new balance, right?

01:19:25 ◼   ► And I'm looking through like six emails, maybe more, because they're gonna send me

01:19:29 ◼   ► twenty emails for every pair of shoes that I buy, right?

01:19:33 ◼   ► So like I'm having to click through all of this.

01:19:35 ◼   ► I do these kinds of searches a lot.

01:19:37 ◼   ► But it's able to give you that information quickly.

01:19:40 ◼   ► And sometimes, yes, you have to give it a second go at a question,

01:19:45 ◼   ► right?

01:19:45 ◼   ► Because it fully understand what you're asking.

01:19:48 ◼   ► But like you just treat Siri like a large language model now and you

01:19:52 ◼   ► will get to where you need to go.

01:19:53 ◼   ► Like you sometimes have to give it a little bit more information that maybe

01:19:57 ◼   ► you have, but you didn't give it on the first time.

01:19:59 ◼   ► And you can kind of help it narrow it down and you're gonna get

01:20:02 ◼   ► to where you wanna go.

01:20:03 ◼   ► So I would say like in general, Siri AI is helping rebuild for me

01:20:08 ◼   ► the habit of feeling comfortable kind of talking to my devices because I feel

01:20:12 ◼   ► like it is a fruitful endeavor rather than a fruitless endeavor, which is how

01:20:16 ◼   ► it been for years and years and years, right?

01:20:19 ◼   ► That they'd be like, hey, we've made Siri better now.

01:20:22 ◼   ► It's doing more stuff on device.

01:20:23 ◼   ► That and you're like, great, I'll try it.

01:20:25 ◼   ► Nope.

01:20:25 ◼   ► Just the same.

01:20:26 ◼   ► Like it's just the same.

01:20:28 ◼   ► It maybe just answers incorrectly faster.

01:20:31 ◼   ► That's how it's been for years and years, but it really is getting better

01:20:35 ◼   ► now.

01:20:35 ◼   ► Now, today, as we're third party apps are rolling out, right?

01:20:40 ◼   ► And so this is the in the second part, this is like the second

01:20:42 ◼   ► shoe to drop.

01:20:43 ◼   ► What can Siri access?

01:20:45 ◼   ► Well, it turns out Siri can access information, make changes in different apps, but

01:20:50 ◼   ► it seems like, at least for my testing, haven't had a lot of of

01:20:54 ◼   ► opportunity to test this yet, it kind of always wants you to include the

01:20:58 ◼   ► name of the third party app in the query, which is not what I

01:21:02 ◼   ► want, right?

01:21:03 ◼   ► Like that is not natural.

01:21:04 ◼   ► Like if I'm if I want to ask what tasks I have today or

01:21:07 ◼   ► what meetings I have today, I don't want to say interdoist.

01:21:11 ◼   ► In Fantastical.

01:21:12 ◼   ► Like my iPhone should be intelligent enough to know what I'm using.

01:21:17 ◼   ► And I'm concerned that the system is not gonna be smart enough and that

01:21:22 ◼   ► the system is not smart enough or it's not been designed to go out

01:21:26 ◼   ► and grab all the information I want.

01:21:28 ◼   ► 'Cause I know the retrieval in Apple's apps is really good.

01:21:33 ◼   ► And I know it could do the same thing for third party apps.

01:21:36 ◼   ► It's just as if they're going to.

01:21:38 ◼   ► And so if it doesn't now, I hope they will get better at this,

01:21:41 ◼   ► like but I do feel like for the vast majority of stuff that I

01:21:45 ◼   ► wanna ask my iPhone, it's able to give me a decent answer.

01:21:47 ◼   ► And also the world knowledge the world knowledge stuff is just as good as

01:21:50 ◼   ► you would want it to be.

01:21:51 ◼   ► I feel like like it's it does a good enough job.

01:21:54 ◼   ► I I think they could get even better at real time.

01:21:57 ◼   ► I think we've spoken about that in Rumor Roundup that they seem like they're

01:22:00 ◼   ► trying to by doing publisher deals.

01:22:02 ◼   ► So yeah, I've been very impressed with it and and uh really encourage people

01:22:06 ◼   ► to try it.

01:22:07 ◼   ► Like keep trying it, second guess yourself, like when you have something that pops

01:22:11 ◼   ► into your head, like actually ask and see if you can can get there.

01:22:15 ◼   ► So that's my thoughts on Siri AI.

01:22:19 ◼   ► This This episode is brought to you by Notion.

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01:24:39 ◼   ► It's time for some ask upgrade questions.

01:24:43 ◼   ► Very iPhone Duo.

01:24:44 ◼   ► Uh lots lots of iPhone duo questions today because we've got the we uh

01:24:48 ◼   ► can't stop thinking about it and neither can the audience.

01:24:51 ◼   ► No.

01:24:51 ◼   ► Matt wants to know will the iPhone duo support a mouse or trackpad or

01:24:57 ◼   ► pointing device?

01:24:58 ◼   ► Now, this is one of those questions where me and Jason have no idea

01:25:02 ◼   ► of knowing the answer, but I can give you a pretty good pretty good

01:25:05 ◼   ► guess guess.

01:25:06 ◼   ► Because iOS does very well.

01:25:08 ◼   ► Like it's in the accessibility settings.

01:25:10 ◼   ► It's been in there for a long time.

01:25:12 ◼   ► It predates the iPad OS cursor.

01:25:14 ◼   ► It's how iUT used to use a mouse on iPad OS before Apple added

01:25:18 ◼   ► the kind of magic trackpad support.

01:25:21 ◼   ► It's very good.

01:25:22 ◼   ► And I use it um one of the things that I do at CrossFord

01:25:26 ◼   ► for widget smith is I make the videos that go in the help screens,

01:25:30 ◼   ► which is this very funny thing of more people hear my voice in those

01:25:33 ◼   ► help videos in like a few weeks than I've I ever heard a voice

01:25:38 ◼   ► on podcast.

01:25:39 ◼   ► It's obscene.

01:25:40 ◼   ► Uh but I make the videos and the way that I do this is

01:25:44 ◼   ► I connect a mouse to my iPhone to simulate the clicking.

01:25:48 ◼   ► So you could there's like a pointer that appears on the screen and I'm

01:25:50 ◼   ► clicking around as how I make the videos so people can see this is

01:25:53 ◼   ► where you tap, this is where you tap.

01:25:55 ◼   ► So it will do what you need.

01:25:57 ◼   ► It doesn't exactly the same as the iPad OS cursor, but it's more than

01:26:01 ◼   ► good enough.

01:26:01 ◼   ► And you actually get some fun customization stuff that you can do if you

01:26:04 ◼   ► wanna do that.

01:26:05 ◼   ► You can uh do transparency, you can put a little ring around the cursor.

01:26:09 ◼   ► So if you wanna use a mouse with your uh uh i iPhone duo,

01:26:12 ◼   ► you will be able to do it.

01:26:13 ◼   ► I feel very confident in that.

01:26:14 ◼   ► Yeah and I do wonder if they will maybe not at first, but if

01:26:19 ◼   ► they will allow

01:26:22 ◼   ► that pointing device to be the iPad OS style pointing device over time, 'cause

01:26:27 ◼   ► I don't know why they wouldn't on Honestly, since they've got that code and

01:26:32 ◼   ► it works really well, um, and it doesn't, you know, you don't have the

01:26:37 ◼   ► iPhone iPad multitasking in order to have the iPad uh pointer.

01:26:42 ◼   ► So I I wonder if they will allow that on the duo at some

01:26:45 ◼   ► point.

01:26:45 ◼   ► But you're right there's accessibility regardless.

01:26:47 ◼   ► Yep.

01:26:49 ◼   ► Hmm asks, if there's no face ID on the iPhone Duo, why do you

01:26:53 ◼   ► think the pinhole camera on the outer screen is an also an under display

01:26:57 ◼   ► camera like the one inside.

01:27:00 ◼   ► I don't know, because they

01:27:02 ◼   ► they don't I mean the dynamic island and they got limited space up there.

01:27:06 ◼   ► People are used to the dynamic island and because when you don't have a

01:27:09 ◼   ► screen in front of your camera you can have a higher quality camera.

01:27:12 ◼   ► I think that is it.

01:27:13 ◼   ► The the the the camera on the under display is not very good.

01:27:16 ◼   ► Like it's a ten eighty camera.

01:27:19 ◼   ► It's y yeah.

01:27:20 ◼   ► Like they they don't even give it any specs, the one on under the

01:27:23 ◼   ► screen.

01:27:23 ◼   ► No, it's the old MacBook Air camera from a few years ago where where

01:27:27 ◼   ► it we were all like, Come on, really?

01:27:29 ◼   ► We're still doing this?

01:27:30 ◼   ► And it's like, Yeah, well it's a big thing.

01:27:32 ◼   ► And it's even worse because it's under the display.

01:27:34 ◼   ► Like there's there's a yes, right i i it makes the picture worse because

01:27:38 ◼   ► it's having to look through the pixels.

01:27:40 ◼   ► Like it essentially that is a very functional camera.

01:27:43 ◼   ► It exists that if you have your phone open and someone calls you on

01:27:46 ◼   ► FaceTime, you can answer it, right?

01:27:48 ◼   ► You haven't got to close your phone to pick up a FaceTime call, which

01:27:50 ◼   ► would be super weird.

01:27:51 ◼   ► But as you also enable people to take selfies with the camera without having

01:27:56 ◼   ► to open the phone to take a selfie.

01:27:58 ◼   ► Like it makes a lot of sense to me that the outside screen The

01:28:03 ◼   ► like the closed part of the iPhone duo should feel like an iPhone.

01:28:07 ◼   ► Like it should just feel like you're using an iPhone.

01:28:10 ◼   ► Right?

01:28:10 ◼   ► Like so that means having a camera on it.

01:28:12 ◼   ► And you take selfies to post on Instagram or send to your friends.

01:28:15 ◼   ► Like it should feel like you're using an iPhone like as close as you

01:28:18 ◼   ► can get to it.

01:28:19 ◼   ► So yeah.

01:28:20 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:28:21 ◼   ► I think it makes sense.

01:28:22 ◼   ► Even though there is also a camera on the outside if you open it.

01:28:25 ◼   ► Uh but that's how you they even show that off.

01:28:26 ◼   ► You get higher quality selfies that way because you can take a selfie You

01:28:30 ◼   ► get the best selfie you can get on an iPhone on the iPhone Duo.

01:28:35 ◼   ► Essentially because because the good back camera can be facing toward your face that

01:28:40 ◼   ► you can also see the screen that is facing toward your face.

01:28:45 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:28:47 ◼   ► All right.

01:28:48 ◼   ► Next question comes from Hunter.

01:28:50 ◼   ► With the iPhone Duos outer display having completely new aspect ratio, is there a

01:28:55 ◼   ► potential future where we see at least one non folding iPhone that is more

01:28:59 ◼   ► similar to the iPhone duel's outer display in shape than the current iPhones?

01:29:04 ◼   ► I don't think so.

01:29:06 ◼   ► Unless it is unbelievably popular in some way.

01:29:09 ◼   ► You know what I mean?

01:29:10 ◼   ► Right?

01:29:10 ◼   ► Like it would have to be uh which I don't think is going to

01:29:14 ◼   ► be the case.

01:29:14 ◼   ► Right?

01:29:15 ◼   ► That like if people were like, oh man, the iPhone duo is amazing, but

01:29:19 ◼   ► you know what the best part of it is?

01:29:21 ◼   ► Using it closed.

01:29:22 ◼   ► And like this somehow really catches on with people, which I don't think is

01:29:25 ◼   ► gonna be the case, right?

01:29:26 ◼   ► I don't think that's gonna be the case either.

01:29:28 ◼   ► By the way, the the uh David Smith posted a thing about like the

01:29:32 ◼   ► market share of within widget smith of the iPhone iPhone 17 generation and it's

01:29:37 ◼   ► like the iPhone Air is like two percent or whatever.

01:29:40 ◼   ► Um which is very much like the it's not two percent.

01:29:43 ◼   ► No, it is of the of the of the iPhone seventeen generation.

01:29:47 ◼   ► You gotta take out not the total user base.

01:29:49 ◼   ► David posted percent percentages that don't have to add up to a hundred because

01:29:52 ◼   ► he's got a lot of users who aren't on seventeen.

01:29:54 ◼   ► One point five percent.

01:29:54 ◼   ► I don't find that useful.

01:29:55 ◼   ► It's one point five percent.

01:29:57 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:29:57 ◼   ► Okay.

01:29:57 ◼   ► I mean, okay two percent.

01:29:59 ◼   ► Um folding phones are two percent of the global folding phone market.

01:30:03 ◼   ► So like the question of what percentage of the iPhone duo is even gonna

01:30:07 ◼   ► be of of iPhone sales is a r i it it's gonna be more

01:30:11 ◼   ► than that because people are gonna buy this thing because they're interested in it.

01:30:13 ◼   ► But how much more?

01:30:14 ◼   ► I mean it may still be like four percent or five percent of iPhone

01:30:18 ◼   ► sales.

01:30:19 ◼   ► Uh, maybe.

01:30:20 ◼   ► So um yes, it seems unlikely that one of the great selling points will

01:30:24 ◼   ► be it kind of looks like an iPhone duo, but you can't open it.

01:30:27 ◼   ► But you never I mean, you never know.

01:30:29 ◼   ► But my guess is no.

01:30:34 ◼   ► Uh Rafael asks, do you think there's room in the market for an iPhone

01:30:38 ◼   ► Duo Max, or will there only ever be a single size for the foldable?

01:30:43 ◼   ► Depends on I mean the problem is the aspect ratio, they want it to

01:30:48 ◼   ► be wide and that means that it has to be wide when it's folded.

01:30:52 ◼   ► And if they make it taller, it makes the whole thing taller, which changes

01:30:55 ◼   ► the aspect ratio.

01:30:57 ◼   ► I think they will look at user feedback and they will consider, but um

01:31:01 ◼   ► it will need to be a larger a much larger percentage of Apple's overall

01:31:07 ◼   ► iPhone sales for them to do two of them.

01:31:10 ◼   ► No time soon.

01:31:12 ◼   ► Yeah, I it kind of ever?

01:31:15 ◼   ► I think I think they could, right?

01:31:16 ◼   ► I think it's like I don't think it's gonna be like 10 where the

01:31:20 ◼   ► next year there's a 10 S max, right?

01:31:23 ◼   ► Um but again if if it catches on, there's a lot of there's a

01:31:26 ◼   ► lot of question about if this catches on.

01:31:28 ◼   ► If it catches on And they sell lots of them, why would you not

01:31:31 ◼   ► make another one that's in a different size, right?

01:31:33 ◼   ► Like it's like the old model.

01:31:35 ◼   ► But it's there's no way of knowing at this point.

01:31:37 ◼   ► That's the ev the ever here.

01:31:39 ◼   ► Like I I I think okay, I'm gonna get a little philosophical for a

01:31:42 ◼   ► second.

01:31:42 ◼   ► And I I appreciate that um John Turnus and Jaws in that interview we

01:31:46 ◼   ► talked about earlier talked about this.