Upgrade

00:00:09 ◼   ► From relay, this is Upgrade episode 633 for August 18th, 2026.

00:00:16 ◼   ► It is Relay's 12th birthday today.

00:00:18 ◼   ► Happy birthday, Relay.

00:00:19 ◼   ► This episode is brought to you by Shipatun from Revenue Cat, Scribe, Keeper, and

00:00:24 ◼   ► Squarespace.

00:00:24 ◼   ► My name is Mike Hurley, and I am joined by Jason Snell.

00:00:27 ◼   ► Hi, Jason.

00:00:28 ◼   ► Hi, Mike.

00:00:29 ◼   ► Happy birthday to Relay.

00:00:30 ◼   ► Indeed.

00:00:31 ◼   ► Happy birthday to my son who is 22 years old.

00:00:34 ◼   ► I always forget that that happens.

00:00:35 ◼   ► Happy birthday to Julian.

00:00:36 ◼   ► Do you think Julian would like to be called out by name like Jamie

00:00:39 ◼   ► does?

00:00:39 ◼   ► Uh he's never gonna hear it.

00:00:42 ◼   ► Probably doesn't care.

00:00:43 ◼   ► He's never gonna hear it.

00:00:44 ◼   ► Jamie only hears it because she gets paid to hear it.

00:00:47 ◼   ► And she was just briefly, she was just briefly sad because Julian's name was

00:00:51 ◼   ► mentioned and not hers, and then immediately then her name was mentioned, so it's

00:00:54 ◼   ► fine.

00:00:54 ◼   ► That's how it works.

00:00:55 ◼   ► You gotta you gotta level these things up.

00:00:57 ◼   ► I have a Snelltalk question, one of the classics.

00:01:00 ◼   ► I'm playing the hits today, actually.

00:01:02 ◼   ► Summer of fun, it's all hits today.

00:01:04 ◼   ► Summer of fun, all segments, all hits.

00:01:07 ◼   ► Yep.

00:01:08 ◼   ► Marcello Marcello asks, what is Jason's favorite tea?

00:01:13 ◼   ► Oh, uh well, I was just traveling over the weekend and you know, you

00:01:16 ◼   ► order tea, and then and and they're like, Well, we have a selection of

00:01:19 ◼   ► tea, what do you want?

00:01:19 ◼   ► And in a couple of places they're like, Well, we have our old gray,

00:01:22 ◼   ► we have English breakfast, and I'll be like, basically, black tea is my favorite,

00:01:27 ◼   ► English breakfast is my favorite.

00:01:29 ◼   ► Um, I have the tea that I buy in a giant packet of loose

00:01:34 ◼   ► tea is from the New Mexico Tea Company, a former sponsor of mine on

00:01:37 ◼   ► The Incomparable, and uh I They sponsored this show a l a very long

00:01:41 ◼   ► time ago.

00:01:42 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:01:42 ◼   ► Yeah, they're the the guy who does that is a big fan.

00:01:45 ◼   ► Um, and uh I like that tea.

00:01:48 ◼   ► It's a I think I'm doing their I forget what it is now, uh,

00:01:51 ◼   ► um but it's it's just black tea.

00:01:52 ◼   ► That's that's what it is.

00:01:54 ◼   ► I think I think I have like an organic Assam that I get now,

00:01:56 ◼   ► but it's I mean, in the end, uh all that matters is I like

00:02:01 ◼   ► uh black tea.

00:02:03 ◼   ► And I drink it, yeah, some breakfast, I think is what I have now

00:01:59 ◼   ► in it, which is organic.

00:02:07 ◼   ► Um and I drink it black.

00:02:09 ◼   ► I used to put honey in it.

00:02:10 ◼   ► It was a honey delivery mechanism, and I decided with the advice of my

00:02:13 ◼   ► doctor that perhaps a a daily enormous honey shot in the morning was not

00:02:18 ◼   ► uh conducive to a healthy lifestyle, and I just cut it out, and so

00:02:22 ◼   ► now it's and and now what I've discovered now is that when people say,

00:02:25 ◼   ► Would you like something in your tea?

00:02:26 ◼   ► And I say no, oftentimes they say, Oh.

00:02:30 ◼   ► It's like what's wrong with you?

00:02:31 ◼   ► I'm like, I just need the tea.

00:02:33 ◼   ► Give me the tea.

00:02:33 ◼   ► It's hot caffeine thing into me.

00:02:36 ◼   ► I want it.

00:02:37 ◼   ► Did you say it was the breakfast tea you have?

00:02:40 ◼   ► Yeah, I I have the Assam breakfast.

00:02:44 ◼   ► Yep.

00:02:44 ◼   ► I found it.

00:02:45 ◼   ► Organics if people want it.

00:02:46 ◼   ► If they want to if you want to drink, yep.

00:02:50 ◼   ► Um, my friend David Laura, who I saw this weekend, he uh has been

00:02:54 ◼   ► spending a bunch of time out in Albuquerque um dealing with some family stuff,

00:03:00 ◼   ► and um he went into the New Mexico tea company, and they and he

00:03:04 ◼   ► says that that the moment he spoke and they heard his voice, they're like,

00:03:07 ◼   ► Oh, you're from the incomparable.

00:03:09 ◼   ► Oh, that's so funny.

00:03:11 ◼   ► So yeah, I bet they would love that.

00:03:12 ◼   ► I bet he loved that.

00:03:14 ◼   ► Yeah, I uh you are pretty hardcore with your tea, I think.

00:03:18 ◼   ► Just just pure black tea.

00:03:19 ◼   ► That is that is relatively hardcore.

00:03:21 ◼   ► Just give it to me.

00:03:22 ◼   ► Yeah, it just wants it.

00:03:23 ◼   ► Well, it started so I have a friend who did that.

00:03:25 ◼   ► Um my friend John Seth, who works at Apple now, who worked at Macworld.

00:03:29 ◼   ► Um, John and I were the tea drinkers at Macworld, and um we both

00:03:35 ◼   ► enjoyed having honey in our tea.

00:03:37 ◼   ► And so I had honey and he had honey, he had a little honey

00:03:39 ◼   ► bear, and I had a little honey bear squeeze bottle.

00:03:42 ◼   ► And we created what I enjoyed calling the honey sharing accord, okay, which was

00:03:46 ◼   ► an agreement that if if one of us was out of honey, they could

00:03:50 ◼   ► come and use the other person's honey for their tea.

00:03:52 ◼   ► Yep.

00:03:52 ◼   ► Because it was sort of like a nobody should go without honey in their

00:03:55 ◼   ► tea.

00:03:56 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:03:56 ◼   ► And then one, and then all of a sudden he said, My doctor told

00:04:00 ◼   ► me I gotta get my I don't know, triglycerides down or whatever it was,

00:04:03 ◼   ► and so I don't put honey in my tea anymore.

00:04:05 ◼   ► And I remember doing a double take, like, what?

00:04:08 ◼   ► How?

00:04:09 ◼   ► No.

00:04:10 ◼   ► And then, you know, but then I did the same.

00:04:13 ◼   ► And no one's taking my honey.

00:04:15 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah.

00:04:16 ◼   ► I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

00:04:18 ◼   ► Um, but then uh many years later I was like, well, John did it,

00:04:20 ◼   ► I could probably do it.

00:04:21 ◼   ► And I did it.

00:04:22 ◼   ► And and I don't, I mean, I I wouldn't say I don't miss it.

00:04:25 ◼   ► Sometimes in the like the late morning or early afternoon, I will I will

00:04:30 ◼   ► make a cup of tea.

00:04:31 ◼   ► Uh, and sometimes that's the special cup of tea, and there's some honey in

00:04:34 ◼   ► it.

00:04:35 ◼   ► But it's a special treat now.

00:04:36 ◼   ► That's a treat.

00:04:37 ◼   ► Uh, if you would like to send in a question to help us open

00:04:40 ◼   ► a future episode of the show, just go to upgradefeedback.com and send in your

00:04:44 ◼   ► Snell Talk.

00:04:45 ◼   ► Uh, I actually did have an item of follow-up that I've now moved to

00:04:49 ◼   ► a segment.

00:04:50 ◼   ► So today's episode will actually be all segments, because why not do that?

00:04:53 ◼   ► You know?

00:04:54 ◼   ► Great.

00:04:54 ◼   ► Oops, great.

00:04:55 ◼   ► It really is oopsal segments now, because I didn't realize that until I opened

00:04:59 ◼   ► the document again.

00:05:00 ◼   ► Uh, because I actually wrote most of this document yesterday because we were recording

00:05:03 ◼   ► on Tuesday because you were traveling.

00:05:05 ◼   ► Um so I opened it up today, added a few bits, and then realized

00:05:08 ◼   ► oh, it's all segments, and uh truly is all segments, and the first one

00:05:12 ◼   ► of those, well, the second one I should say, is upstream.

00:05:15 ◼   ► Apple has told Deadline that the premiere of Ted Lasso season four drew 296.6

00:05:21 ◼   ► million viewing minutes in the United States on August the 5th and the 4th

00:05:25 ◼   ► and 5th, per Nielsen data.

00:05:28 ◼   ► This makes this Apple TV's biggest ever launch episode.

00:05:32 ◼   ► That was the reason that they spoke to Deadline and shared that information because

00:05:36 ◼   ► Apple is actually quite notorious for not sharing information with anyone unless it suits

00:05:41 ◼   ► them, which we're not surprised by.

00:05:43 ◼   ► I mean that's that's PR.

00:05:44 ◼   ► That's marketing, that's how it works.

00:05:45 ◼   ► Yep.

00:05:46 ◼   ► You put out the good news, but they put out the code.

00:05:48 ◼   ► I mean, I hear people talk about this and reference it on podcasts and

00:05:51 ◼   ► stuff, that they don't even tell the creators of the shows very much of

00:05:54 ◼   ► what's going on, which is actually quite rare.

00:05:57 ◼   ► Yeah, exactly.

00:05:58 ◼   ► Uh and then Eddie Q told Screen Ran in a red carpet interview that

00:06:02 ◼   ► quote, I think there's plenty of stories to go on to go on will

00:06:06 ◼   ► show up.

00:06:07 ◼   ► So essentially what people are taking this to mean is there will be more

00:06:11 ◼   ► seasons of the show, even though a season five renewal has not been announced

00:06:15 ◼   ► officially.

00:06:16 ◼   ► But we do know that the uh c return in cost signed for three-year

00:06:22 ◼   ► deals.

00:06:22 ◼   ► So that could have been an optionality, but you never know.

00:06:25 ◼   ► Yeah, well, I generally that's what it is.

00:06:27 ◼   ► I I would say in portions.

00:06:29 ◼   ► So, like when they said they were gonna come back, they probably signed a

00:06:33 ◼   ► one-year guarantee, but a three-year deal so that they know that they could make

00:06:37 ◼   ► the show in another three-year block and then they can reassess then if they

00:06:40 ◼   ► want to do even more, they could do that, take some time off, they

00:06:43 ◼   ► could do that.

00:06:44 ◼   ► And they did and they didn't do a three-year order, but they probably did,

00:06:47 ◼   ► and I've we've heard this about a lot of Apple shows, a soft, a

00:06:51 ◼   ► soft order.

00:06:52 ◼   ► Sometimes it's uh we are ordering two years, but we're not gonna talk about

00:06:57 ◼   ► it.

00:06:57 ◼   ► Sometimes it's we're not gonna order two years, but we're gonna order two years

00:07:01 ◼   ► of scripts.

00:07:02 ◼   ► So after you're done with year one, don't shut down the writer's room, get

00:07:06 ◼   ► the writer's room spun up for a season two, and then we'll and and

00:07:10 ◼   ► that's a stalling technique to let them have some initial ratings data.

00:07:14 ◼   ► Uh uh some initial numbers to know whether they really want to go on,

00:07:17 ◼   ► and occasionally they may rescind that.

00:07:20 ◼   ► Um but so that's a little bit softer, and then I think there are

00:07:23 ◼   ► some shows where they just do one season and then they're like, let's just

00:07:26 ◼   ► see how it goes.

00:07:27 ◼   ► And uh, you know, Severance, I think was like that, and Pluribus, I think

00:07:31 ◼   ► was like that, and as a result, those shows are gonna take forever to

00:07:35 ◼   ► come back.

00:07:36 ◼   ► And but I think with Ted Lasso, yeah, my guess is that if they

00:07:40 ◼   ► didn't already know they were coming back for season two, they looked at these

00:07:43 ◼   ► numbers and said, Yeah, yeah, you know, or see, sorry, season five two of

00:07:46 ◼   ► the new season five, season two of the new era.

00:07:49 ◼   ► Um, so yeah, it's not too surprising.

00:07:52 ◼   ► I can't imagine that Sudakis wouldn't have made that part of the deal.

00:07:56 ◼   ► You know, it's like if you want this so bad and you're gonna make

00:08:00 ◼   ► me do this, like I want to do whatever I want to do, the

00:08:03 ◼   ► story I want to tell.

00:08:05 ◼   ► Like it is rumored.

00:08:06 ◼   ► I was reading about this.

00:08:07 ◼   ► There, the rumor is that uh that Sudeikis has another three three season arc

00:08:12 ◼   ► to tell with this show.

00:08:13 ◼   ► I think that's probably the plan, and I think that um I think that

00:08:17 ◼   ► that they I mean, Jason Sudakis may have very much been given a we'll

00:08:21 ◼   ► pay you per season, and also we will pay you a fee if we

00:08:24 ◼   ► don't go forward, right?

00:08:25 ◼   ► That's part of it too.

00:08:27 ◼   ► But I I I think, yeah, but Apple tends to prefer announcing the renewal

00:08:31 ◼   ► of a show to happen either, you know, a couple weeks after it premieres

00:08:36 ◼   ► or right as it's finishing its season.

00:08:39 ◼   ► They like to do so.

00:08:40 ◼   ► There's a renewal announcement that ends up being again sort of PR.

00:08:44 ◼   ► It's drama.

00:08:44 ◼   ► It's uh you know, they wanna they want to place that in the right

00:08:47 ◼   ► moment to get people to to talk and to reassure viewers.

00:08:50 ◼   ► In general, it does feel like they've actually they're it's working now.

00:08:54 ◼   ► Like Apple TV feels like it's working now.

00:08:56 ◼   ► Like I hear their shows mentioned in media where I don't expect it, right?

00:08:59 ◼   ► Like obviously I expect you know everyone in tech to be talking about it,

00:09:06 ◼   ► but like the gaming podcast that I talk about, they talk about how much

00:09:09 ◼   ► they love uh Severance and Pluribus and Widow's Bay and all of these shows.

00:09:14 ◼   ► Like it comes up.

00:09:16 ◼   ► Um and so yeah, I you know they I think they've done it now.

00:09:20 ◼   ► Uh I actually just heard I haven't watched it, but apparently I heard uh

00:09:23 ◼   ► uh uh saying Dink is very good.

00:09:25 ◼   ► Um the movie that they just released.

00:09:28 ◼   ► The um and and it's been a while, but uh last time I heard

00:09:32 ◼   ► the stats of them uh letting Amazon resell Apple TV Plus into the Amazon

00:09:37 ◼   ► channels ecosystem had had gone well for them in terms of sort of like

00:09:41 ◼   ► unearthing another um place where people might say, Oh sure, I'll add Apple TV

00:09:45 ◼   ► here.

00:09:46 ◼   ► So I can imagine there are a lot of people who are like I'm

00:09:49 ◼   ► not spending 200 pounds to spend fifteen pounds or whatever, right?

00:09:53 ◼   ► Like people think that you need an Apple TV for the Apple TV, but

00:09:56 ◼   ► then when they see it in their Amazon Prime, it's like, oh, I actually

00:10:00 ◼   ► want to watch it.

00:10:03 ◼   ► So exactly, yeah.

00:10:04 ◼   ► Last week Apple added a selection of classic movies to Apple TV Plus, which

00:10:08 ◼   ► are free for subscribers.

00:10:09 ◼   ► Uh these movies differ from territory to territory, but they include stuff like The

00:10:14 ◼   ► Martian Arrival, Loop of the Proposal, Jurassic Park is on uh the UK.

00:10:19 ◼   ► Uh they're calling this collection Great Movies Available Now on Apple TV.

00:10:24 ◼   ► I don't know why they're doing this.

00:10:26 ◼   ► I mean, I kinda do, but I also don't make like th it's such

00:10:30 ◼   ► a small amount of movies and they're not really making that much of a

00:10:34 ◼   ► deal about it.

00:10:35 ◼   ► And they have so many of their own movies now.

00:10:37 ◼   ► Why do you think they're doing this?

00:10:39 ◼   ► I think it's a I think it's an experiment.

00:10:41 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:10:42 ◼   ► They've done some of this before.

00:10:43 ◼   ► This isn't new.

00:10:44 ◼   ► Often it's theme based and it's around a show or or something that they're

00:10:49 ◼   ► doing.

00:10:50 ◼   ► Um, but they I think they are exper they got a deal, right?

00:10:55 ◼   ► They got some sort of a deal for a package and thought this is

00:11:01 ◼   ► I mean, either it was a throw-in with some other deal, and they're like,

00:11:04 ◼   ► okay, whatever.

00:11:04 ◼   ► But I think I think they like to experiment and look with the look

00:11:08 ◼   ► at the data.

00:11:09 ◼   ► Um it has some interesting knock on effects too, by the way, which I

00:11:12 ◼   ► I think that is what another thing that they're probably watching, which is if

00:11:17 ◼   ► you are sir if you are browsing the Apple TV thing and you go,

00:11:21 ◼   ► oh, what movies do they have?

00:11:22 ◼   ► The Martian, oh let's watch that.

00:11:23 ◼   ► Great.

00:11:24 ◼   ► But also a side effect of this is if you are on your Apple

00:11:29 ◼   ► TV app and you search for the Martian, it just says play.

00:11:35 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:11:35 ◼   ► And so you can capture people just when they w are curious about a

00:11:42 ◼   ► movie and say, Yeah, you can just watch that right now and and not

00:11:47 ◼   ► even think about that it's because of your Apple TV subscription.

00:11:50 ◼   ► So I think it's a I think it's an experiment.

00:11:52 ◼   ► I think they um I don't think they're opposed to catalog content because i

00:11:58 ◼   ► it it it it bulks up the service a little bit.

00:12:01 ◼   ► I don't think it's a strategy for them yet, but I think that they're

00:12:04 ◼   ► looking at data and maybe thinking if a strategy makes sense.

00:12:07 ◼   ► You know, it made me wonder if they should have tried to buy Warner

00:12:10 ◼   ► Brothers.

00:12:11 ◼   ► Like I I know they're maybe they'll get the chance after all.

00:12:15 ◼   ► I was this is this was the other thing that made me wonder, right?

00:12:17 ◼   ► Like I know that they they had early talks but did not go to

00:12:21 ◼   ► a deal, right?

00:12:22 ◼   ► They were one of the people when when Zaslov was like, I'm selling this

00:12:25 ◼   ► thing.

00:12:25 ◼   ► Yeah, they sniffed around it, but it was not Zaslav's original plan, just to

00:12:29 ◼   ► be while we're in upstream, yeah, to be clear.

00:12:32 ◼   ► His original plan was unless somebody sweeps in and offers us for everything, we're

00:12:37 ◼   ► gonna split the company in two, and we're gonna have the studio over here,

00:12:41 ◼   ► and we're gonna have the cable TV operations over here.

00:12:44 ◼   ► And he because he felt like they would probably be worth more money separately.

00:12:50 ◼   ► And part of that rationale was he knew that the streamers didn't want the

00:12:53 ◼   ► cable TV channels.

00:12:55 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:12:55 ◼   ► So he was he was gonna he thought Amazon and Apple were more likely

00:12:59 ◼   ► to come in.

00:13:00 ◼   ► But then Netflix and Paramount, Skydance came in and just wanted the whole kit

00:13:06 ◼   ► and caboodle.

00:13:07 ◼   ► And so that's that's where they are right now.

00:13:10 ◼   ► Although just the for people who haven't been paying attention, there's a there's a

00:13:13 ◼   ► lawsuit from a bunch of uh state attorney generals trying to stop it.

00:13:17 ◼   ► Um that is not gonna go to trial until next year.

00:13:20 ◼   ► Um it depends on who you listen to, but a lot of the analysts

00:13:24 ◼   ► say that this may that that either David Ellison of Paramount Skydance is going

00:13:30 ◼   ► to have to make some major concessions, which probably might even involve divesting some

00:13:36 ◼   ► of the things that he said he wants to buy, or risk the whole

00:13:40 ◼   ► deal falling apart.

00:13:41 ◼   ► And part of that is that David Zaslav of Warner Brothers uh instituted this

00:13:45 ◼   ► idea called the ticking fee, which is basically like every day that this deal

00:13:49 ◼   ► doesn't close, uh there's an extra penalty that it would just come out.

00:13:53 ◼   ► Skydance has to pay.

00:13:54 ◼   ► Yeah, and it it could become, and that starts this fall.

00:13:57 ◼   ► Yeah, and that could become untenable and the whole deal could fall apart.

00:14:02 ◼   ► Maybe the trial has been set to hurt them, right?

00:14:05 ◼   ► So that the ticking fee could kick in.

00:14:07 ◼   ► Yeah, because it's gonna be spring, so it's gonna it it the trial won't

00:14:10 ◼   ► even start.

00:14:11 ◼   ► I think that trial was not necessarily set to hurt them, but to encourage

00:14:14 ◼   ► them to make a deal.

00:14:15 ◼   ► But right now, the California attorney general who is leaving this case, it seems

00:14:14 ◼   ► to be uninterested.

00:14:21 ◼   ► He's at least positioned himself as uninterested in making a deal.

00:14:24 ◼   ► And then uh he's uh Ellison's threatening to leave California, right?

00:14:28 ◼   ► Like that's his that's his threat back is like we're gonna leave California.

00:14:32 ◼   ► That that's his next move.

00:14:33 ◼   ► And a lot of the analysis there is that he you know he he's

00:14:37 ◼   ► also basically intractable at this point, and somebody's gonna have to give here.

00:14:41 ◼   ► Yeah, uh both sides are gonna have to give, or um because there's a

00:14:44 ◼   ► scenario here where Larry Ellison, David Ellison's dad, ends up spending uh like ten

00:14:49 ◼   ► billion dollars on nothing.

00:14:51 ◼   ► Yes, at a time when Oracle stock is going down.

00:14:54 ◼   ► Yes, and worse than that, Paramount is then left as a company that is

00:14:59 ◼   ► frankly too small to survive.

00:15:01 ◼   ► So it's a it's a fascinating uh kind of thing going on.

00:15:05 ◼   ► But yeah, should could Apple be interested in a studio and a bunch of

00:15:09 ◼   ► catalog?

00:15:10 ◼   ► I I think it absolutely could.

00:15:12 ◼   ► I think that what we've seen with Apple TV shows that that if they

00:15:14 ◼   ► wanted a little more reach and a little more content, they could absolutely do

00:15:19 ◼   ► that.

00:15:19 ◼   ► And do I think that Apple would be a perfectly decent home for a

00:15:23 ◼   ► lot of that content?

00:15:24 ◼   ► Sure, it would be weird, but you know, Apple TV is weird.

00:15:27 ◼   ► Like I I I'm always surprised uh people might not remember, but when we

00:15:32 ◼   ► were talking about Apple launching a streaming service, people are like, that can't exist.

00:15:35 ◼   ► It doesn't make any sense.

00:15:36 ◼   ► Apple's making TV shows, they've got like dramas and comedies and people saying bad

00:15:41 ◼   ► words on TV and people having you know sexual situations.

00:15:44 ◼   ► Like, that's not Apple, they're not gonna do it.

00:15:46 ◼   ► Well, guess what?

00:15:46 ◼   ► They hired some guys from Sony and they've built a whole thing and they

00:15:50 ◼   ► have done it.

00:15:50 ◼   ► And they've had movies been nominated and won Best Picture, and they've won a

00:15:54 ◼   ► zillion Emmys.

00:15:55 ◼   ► So like Apple running a studio is not actually that far-fetched uh when you

00:15:59 ◼   ► consider how far they've come already.

00:15:59 ◼   ► Talent seem to really like working with them too, because they they get it.

00:16:05 ◼   ► Well, that that's the other thing is like the other thing going on with

00:16:09 ◼   ► David Ellison, and honestly with David Zaslav and Warner doing what he did, is

00:16:14 ◼   ► they are both seen as being incredibly antagonistic to the creative community.

00:16:19 ◼   ► The creative community hates these guys.

00:16:20 ◼   ► Which is not ideal.

00:16:21 ◼   ► And and you know, it's it's part of it is just about money, you

00:16:25 ◼   ► know, who's aslav was canceling projects and and uh but they don't like and

00:16:29 ◼   ► they certainly don't like David Ellison's politics.

00:16:31 ◼   ► But I also would say um, you know, a company like Apple that seems

00:16:36 ◼   ► to be committed to quality and happy to spend money, they like that.

00:16:41 ◼   ► They like that a lot.

00:16:42 ◼   ► Yep.

00:16:42 ◼   ► So I I don't know.

00:16:44 ◼   ► We'll see.

00:16:44 ◼   ► Yeah, we'll see.

00:16:45 ◼   ► It seems unlikely, but not important.

00:16:47 ◼   ► But like, you know, some pieces of the studio would be good for them,

00:16:50 ◼   ► right?

00:16:50 ◼   ► IP, the lots, right?

00:16:52 ◼   ► Like studio having space, like all the some of these parts would be nice,

00:16:55 ◼   ► and as parts they don't want HBO and all of that catalog and all

00:16:59 ◼   ► those creative people.

00:17:00 ◼   ► Like there is yeah, there's something to be said.

00:17:03 ◼   ► I I'm not surprised that they looked at it, and I wonder if they

00:17:05 ◼   ► would look at it again if it comes back around again.

00:17:08 ◼   ► Oh, I think they would.

00:17:09 ◼   ► I think they would.

00:17:11 ◼   ► Either either Paramount, but again, it's gotta be the pieces.

00:17:14 ◼   ► Like Apple doesn't want to buy CBS.

00:17:17 ◼   ► Yep.

00:17:17 ◼   ► Apple doesn't want to buy CNN, right?

00:17:20 ◼   ► No.

00:17:20 ◼   ► Um, but there are parts of both of those companies that I'm sure Apple

00:17:25 ◼   ► would love to buy.

00:17:25 ◼   ► The lots, the IP, um, but not like broadcast or or cable TV.

00:17:31 ◼   ► And and I know I said HBO, HBO is a channel, but like the

00:17:34 ◼   ► way you structure that deal is the HBO is straight.

00:17:37 ◼   ► It's all the intellectual property and it's the streaming services, and then the the

00:17:40 ◼   ► channel is like a thing you licensed for cable and it's not a like

00:17:44 ◼   ► to the other company, maybe even as a as a uh a deal.

00:17:44 ◼   ► Like it's not, it would not be treated.

00:17:51 ◼   ► HBO is not going to be treated as a cable channel.

00:17:53 ◼   ► It's not now.

00:17:55 ◼   ► Essentially, it's a streaming and intellectual property concern now.

00:17:59 ◼   ► This episode is brought to you by Shippaton, the global hackathon for builders launching

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00:19:05 ◼   ► all of Relay.

00:19:07 ◼   ► Time to lawyer up, Jason Snell.

00:19:10 ◼   ► Klunk clunk.

00:19:11 ◼   ► Apple has found its new vice president of government affairs, Nate Gatton will be

00:19:16 ◼   ► taking the post on August 31st.

00:19:19 ◼   ► This was after Lisa Jackson's retirement last year, who then turned the role over

00:19:24 ◼   ► to Catherine Adams, who was previously general counsel, but was planned that she would

00:19:29 ◼   ► be retiring this year too, right?

00:19:31 ◼   ► So it was kind of like a staged effect to get to move all

00:19:29 ◼   ► the people around that they needed.

00:19:35 ◼   ► Gatton is joining the company from American Airlines.

00:19:39 ◼   ► Bloomberg reports that he is a Republican, and Apple was specifically looking for someone

00:19:44 ◼   ► who can more closely align with the Trump administration.

00:19:46 ◼   ► But apparently Apple does believe he can quote work constructively with policymakers on both

00:19:52 ◼   ► sides of the aisle, and that quote, Gatton serves on the board of the

00:19:56 ◼   ► Faith and Politics Institute, a Washington-based organization founded in 1991 that seeks to promote

00:20:03 ◼   ► productive and civil discourse across party partisan lines.

00:20:06 ◼   ► Sounds like he fits a very specific box.

00:20:10 ◼   ► I was gonna say he's Apple's kind of Republican, I guess.

00:20:16 ◼   ► Um, this is look, this is diplomacy, essentially.

00:20:21 ◼   ► If you want to consider Apple a uh its own kind of sovereign state

00:20:25 ◼   ► and the U.S.

00:20:25 ◼   ► government is a different one.

00:20:27 ◼   ► We've talked about Tim Cook, and Tim Cook is still um the implication here

00:20:31 ◼   ► is very strong that of course Tim Cook is a huge part of this.

00:20:34 ◼   ► You're not gonna have somebody reporting, like Gatton is gonna report to the general

00:20:39 ◼   ► counsel, but like who are we kidding?

00:20:40 ◼   ► There's a dotted line to Tim.

00:20:42 ◼   ► To Tim Cook.

00:20:43 ◼   ► That's right.

00:20:43 ◼   ► Who's the chairman of the board, you're gonna be the chairman of the board,

00:20:46 ◼   ► but we know we know what he's doing, and this is a part of

00:20:49 ◼   ► that.

00:20:49 ◼   ► And this is, you know, this is this is politics 101 here, which is

00:20:53 ◼   ► they want somebody who can speak to the people who are in power.

00:20:56 ◼   ► I'm surprised it took this long.

00:20:57 ◼   ► We're halfway through the Trump administration, are we now?

00:21:01 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:21:01 ◼   ► It feels it seems so long.

00:21:03 ◼   ► But um, I I feel like, you know, what took them so long here?

00:21:07 ◼   ► Like you you need you you you want to speak to somebody who can

00:21:09 ◼   ► speak to the people in power and ideally speak to the people who might

00:21:12 ◼   ► be in power if there are some changes on the con congressional side after

00:21:14 ◼   ► the elections this fall that that you know they need people like this to

00:21:20 ◼   ► talk uh we we you know it's politics it's kind of dirty but like

00:21:24 ◼   ► this is how it is and so and this is uh you know somebody

00:21:27 ◼   ► who's got connections and also seems to have been maybe what took them so

00:21:30 ◼   ► long is somebody who's got connections and also is palatable to the people who

00:21:33 ◼   ► work at Apple.

00:21:34 ◼   ► Like not not like the rank and file even but like the people in

00:21:37 ◼   ► the executive somebody who's gonna get it somebody who knows you know knows that

00:21:41 ◼   ► their their loyalty is to Apple and that we they need to be able

00:21:43 ◼   ► to speak this language but they can't just agree with everything that the government

00:21:47 ◼   ► does like that's a it's a it's a diplomatic position is what it is.

00:21:50 ◼   ► Yep.

00:21:51 ◼   ► Uh the Wall Street Journal is reporting that US commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick has

00:21:56 ◼   ► advised Apple not to buy any RAM from Chinese manufacturers.

00:22:00 ◼   ► Lutnik shared this opinion with the journal directly as part of a uh tour

00:22:06 ◼   ► that Apple was giving a manufacturing facility in Houston uh he says the Trump

00:22:11 ◼   ► administration is not in favor of that in regards to Chinese RAM.

00:22:15 ◼   ► They there have to be other solutions to the memory issue but it's not

00:22:19 ◼   ► great American companies using Chinese memory and he told the Wall Street Journal that

00:22:24 ◼   ► he has said the same to Apple.

00:22:27 ◼   ► So well what are those other solutions, Howard?

00:22:30 ◼   ► Exactly.

00:22:30 ◼   ► Yeah I don't know what are they what what what they are what like

00:22:33 ◼   ► the idea is like I'll just build it in America.

00:22:35 ◼   ► Okay, so that will be done next week, right?

00:22:38 ◼   ► That's how long that takes.

00:22:39 ◼   ► So as we said before if Apple want to buy RAM from Chinese manufacturers,

00:22:44 ◼   ► there is nothing stopping them from doing it other than the ire of US

00:22:49 ◼   ► government.

00:22:50 ◼   ► The thing that they need would need legal approval for specifically I I I've

00:22:54 ◼   ► didn't know this part.

00:22:55 ◼   ► Like you know, when the policy said, like, oh, they can do it and

00:22:58 ◼   ► they can sell it in China in Chinese phones, but the government will just

00:23:02 ◼   ► be really mad at them.

00:23:04 ◼   ► Um, but there is another part where if they wanted to customize the chips

00:23:09 ◼   ► in any way, they have to share proprietary information, and that they need legal

00:23:15 ◼   ► approval for.

00:23:16 ◼   ► Now, I'm not saying that's what Apple wants to do, but it was the

00:23:18 ◼   ► part that was interesting.

00:23:19 ◼   ► However, COO Sebi Khan, Apple COM, told the Wall Street Journal, quote, there isn't

00:23:25 ◼   ► a lot of customization for memory, meaning we were just gonna buy it, uh,

00:23:30 ◼   ► and says, and he while declining to comment on specific plans, he reiterated that

00:23:36 ◼   ► they quote, have to look at all options.

00:23:39 ◼   ► So even when pressed on the specific issue that Lutnik has clearly shared, Apple

00:23:45 ◼   ► is not backing down from this idea, right?

00:23:47 ◼   ► Like, this is the same thing that Cook said.

00:23:50 ◼   ► This we have to look at all options suggests that they're continuing to look

00:23:56 ◼   ► at it.

00:23:56 ◼   ► So, a couple things here.

00:23:57 ◼   ► I do believe that there is something the US government could do that they

00:24:01 ◼   ► haven't done that would preclude Apple from using this supplier.

00:24:04 ◼   ► Okay.

00:24:05 ◼   ► There they could classify, I think there's a classification they could do that would

00:24:08 ◼   ► basically say this is not a company that American companies can do business with,

00:24:12 ◼   ► and they haven't done that.

00:24:13 ◼   ► And what what has given Apple hesitation is technically they could do it, yeah,

00:24:19 ◼   ► but at any point the US government could say, no, now stop.

00:24:23 ◼   ► And that would be they what they want is kind of an assurance that

00:24:26 ◼   ► they can go on.

00:24:27 ◼   ► I'm starting to wonder if this is all just a ploy interim in in

00:24:33 ◼   ► in the hopes of getting something else out of the US government, right?

00:24:37 ◼   ► If this is like a little bit of a head fake, a little bit

00:24:40 ◼   ► of a help us, help us somehow.

00:24:43 ◼   ► Yeah, like because at first it felt like, oh, they're trying to do some

00:24:46 ◼   ► kind of deal, right?

00:24:48 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:24:48 ◼   ► Quid pro quo to make this work.

00:24:44 ◼   ► But now at this point, it's like it now feels like there, as you

00:24:53 ◼   ► say, there's like a reverse psychology deal going on here.

00:24:57 ◼   ► Because why it why do they continue to keep pushing it?

00:25:01 ◼   ► Yeah, I I well, especially since now we have that reporting that says that

00:25:05 ◼   ► actually the Chinese memory manufacturers are also booked up, obviously, because everybody is.

00:25:12 ◼   ► So what's the what's going on here?

00:25:14 ◼   ► And so now I'm wondering if there's a an expected outcome that Apple is

00:25:19 ◼   ► hoping to get here that's favorable for them that might be something like increased

00:25:23 ◼   ► attention.

00:25:24 ◼   ► You know, I I don't know.

00:25:26 ◼   ► We don't just spit I'm just spitballing here, but like what if Apple has

00:25:31 ◼   ► tried to lean on company memory companies to get more factories built, maybe even

00:25:38 ◼   ► in the US, and that there's been some resistance to that.

00:25:41 ◼   ► Right.

00:25:42 ◼   ► And I wonder if one aspect of this is them saying all of this

00:25:46 ◼   ► and then going to Howard Lutnick and Donald Trump and saying, you know, the

00:25:51 ◼   ► solution to this is that so and so company is resisting building more American

00:25:56 ◼   ► manufacturing food.

00:25:57 ◼   ► We've been trying to work with these big meanies and they're just not they're

00:26:00 ◼   ► just not helping us.

00:26:01 ◼   ► And they're not committed to American manufacturing and they're not gonna help us.

00:26:04 ◼   ► So can you help us there?

00:26:06 ◼   ► Because you can see what kind of a thing.

00:26:07 ◼   ► We don't want don't don't make us go to China for RAM.

00:26:10 ◼   ► We don't want to go to China.

00:26:12 ◼   ► But what what options do we have?

00:26:14 ◼   ► They've really they really got us in a quandary here.

00:26:17 ◼   ► Help us out.

00:26:17 ◼   ► And uh and hope that that something shakes out where then there's some saber

00:26:22 ◼   ► rattling that happens, and then suddenly Mike Ron kind of like drops out of

00:26:25 ◼   ► a bush and says, Oh yeah, we're we're gonna build a a new plant

00:26:28 ◼   ► in Nebraska.

00:26:29 ◼   ► What are you talking about?

00:26:31 ◼   ► It'll be great.

00:26:31 ◼   ► Apple's gonna yeah, great.

00:26:34 ◼   ► I do wonder, because um I'm I'm not a memory industry analyst, but like

00:26:39 ◼   ► there's a lot of there's probably a lot of politics here uh uh involved,

00:26:44 ◼   ► and that's probably an understatement, but also there's the I wonder about the mindset

00:26:49 ◼   ► of the companies that make memory because they're a it's a little like an

00:26:54 ◼   ► oil cartel, where like right now they're riding so high that do you want

00:26:59 ◼   ► to make more capacity?

00:27:01 ◼   ► Because you can increase your supply, and as long as there's demand, you can

00:27:05 ◼   ► increase your supply and keep making money.

00:27:07 ◼   ► But if you cre increase your supply too much, then the prices will fall

00:27:13 ◼   ► because the demand will be out of balance.

00:27:15 ◼   ► And so maybe you want to keep everything it's the classic.

00:27:18 ◼   ► I mean, I mentioned oil cartel.

00:27:19 ◼   ► It's the classic like OPEC has decided to reduce oil production.

00:27:22 ◼   ► And why do they do that?

00:27:24 ◼   ► Because it keeps the prices up uh when they decide to do that.

00:27:27 ◼   ► Because if you flood the market with oil, then the price goes down.

00:27:30 ◼   ► That's economics one on one.

00:27:31 ◼   ► So um I want I wonder if that is part of this too, that

00:27:36 ◼   ► the memory companies are actually a little hesitant to um and maybe a little

00:27:40 ◼   ► worried about a bubble.

00:27:41 ◼   ► Yep.

00:27:41 ◼   ► Um, and they're like, well, we don't want to invest three billion dollars in

00:27:44 ◼   ► this plant or four billion dollars.

00:27:46 ◼   ► And if the prices go down, now we've kind of ended up in a

00:27:49 ◼   ► worse situation because we spend all this money and now the prices go down.

00:27:52 ◼   ► I mean, that's obviously what what they're resisting, right?

00:27:55 ◼   ► Right.

00:27:55 ◼   ► So if you're Apple and you have a line to the US government, and

00:27:59 ◼   ► the US government is making life hard for a lot of companies in terms

00:28:02 ◼   ► of they want to encourage American manufacturing.

00:28:05 ◼   ► Maybe there's a play here where you're like, these guys don't want to build

00:28:09 ◼   ► enough factories in America, lean on them.

00:28:12 ◼   ► And we'll we'll put in the money, but you gotta lean on them to

00:28:14 ◼   ► commit to do it.

00:28:16 ◼   ► Maybe that's a game that's being played here.

00:28:18 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:28:14 ◼   ► That's just a guess.

00:28:19 ◼   ► There has to be a game, and I've I've stopped being able to understand.

00:28:22 ◼   ► I thought I really understood it, and now I don't now I don't understand

00:28:25 ◼   ► it.

00:28:26 ◼   ► Because it's like the the part of this story that makes me think there

00:28:28 ◼   ► is still a game being played is why is Sobe Khan going on the

00:28:31 ◼   ► record with the Wall Street Journal?

00:28:33 ◼   ► They don't do this, right?

00:28:34 ◼   ► It's like when when Cook made I think it was in the journal as

00:28:37 ◼   ► well, or the Financial Times, it was surprised me that he wanted to give

00:28:41 ◼   ► this interview and said all the stuff he said.

00:28:44 ◼   ► They're trying to get a result and you know, and it may it may

00:28:48 ◼   ► be as simple as uh the you know, money from the US government, but

00:28:51 ◼   ► I do sometimes I wonder if it's not really money from the US government,

00:28:54 ◼   ► it's the US government leaning on somebody else to spend money.

00:28:57 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:28:57 ◼   ► Um, but whatever it is, we'll you know, we'll we'll we'll keep an eye.

00:29:02 ◼   ► We'll keep an eye on it.

00:29:02 ◼   ► But there's there's a lot going on here.

00:29:04 ◼   ► I I am coming around to the idea that Apple doesn't actually really want

00:29:07 ◼   ► to buy these chips that are not available from this Chinese manufacturer that nobody

00:29:11 ◼   ► wants them to buy chips from, and instead they're kind of making a point

00:29:15 ◼   ► to get something else, right?

00:29:17 ◼   ► Whatever that is.

00:29:18 ◼   ► Speaking of Apple and China, Reuters is reporting that Apple trained a custom AI

00:29:23 ◼   ► model for China in collaboration with Alibaba.

00:29:26 ◼   ► So previously they were using models from Chinese companies to power integrations like ChatGPT

00:29:31 ◼   ► in iOS.

00:29:32 ◼   ► But this from the reporting that I've read, it feels closer to what they

00:29:37 ◼   ► have done with Google in the rest of the world, but for China.

00:29:42 ◼   ► Uh this makes Apple the first foreign company to receive approval from the Chinese

00:29:47 ◼   ► government to offer a proprietary model to Chinese users.

00:29:52 ◼   ► So it's the only it's an important market for them, and it's the only

00:29:54 ◼   ► way they can go in.

00:29:56 ◼   ► So this is what is this is it.

00:29:59 ◼   ► I just thought it was interesting.

00:30:01 ◼   ► Like there isn't much to say about this, but it was it was interesting

00:30:03 ◼   ► to me that because we we knew they were going to do something like

00:30:07 ◼   ► this, but that detail of they're the first non-Chinese company to be involved.

00:30:12 ◼   ► And they're training with Alibaba's model is is yes, very much like the Gemini

00:30:17 ◼   ► kind of thing, which is like it's not Gemini, it's being it's using Gemini,

00:30:21 ◼   ► they're distilling Gemini basically.

00:30:22 ◼   ► And so it may be that how do you make a model that passes

00:30:25 ◼   ► muster in China?

00:30:27 ◼   ► And one of the ways you do is you distill it from a model

00:30:30 ◼   ► that's officially approved in China.

00:30:32 ◼   ► Yep.

00:30:34 ◼   ► Alright, settle in for this one.

00:30:35 ◼   ► Because this is something where I've read a bunch of stuff and I don't

00:30:38 ◼   ► fully understand what's happening.

00:30:40 ◼   ► But we're gonna we're gonna do our best.

00:30:42 ◼   ► So lean back.

00:30:43 ◼   ► In the ongoing fight between Apple and Epic, Apple have now proposed the structure

00:30:47 ◼   ► that they would like for companies that want to offer payments outside of the

00:30:50 ◼   ► App Store.

00:30:51 ◼   ► So this was after Judge Yvonne Gonzalez Rogers ruled that Apple did not willfully

00:30:55 ◼   ► comply with her ruling back in April 2025, one of my favorite stories in

00:30:59 ◼   ► a long time, because it was just so fantastic the way it all fell

00:31:02 ◼   ► apart.

00:31:03 ◼   ► This is what allowed companies like Epic to push users outside of the App

00:31:07 ◼   ► Store and pay nothing to Apple in return, right?

00:31:09 ◼   ► And then Apple and Epic have been stuck in this limbo where everyone's appealing

00:31:13 ◼   ► to courts and no one's getting anywhere.

00:31:15 ◼   ► Well, Apple eventually got someone to take their appeal, which is the Ninth Circuit

00:31:20 ◼   ► Court of Appeals.

00:31:22 ◼   ► They asked Apple to uh so they said that Apple should be able to

00:31:27 ◼   ► charge a commission for quote necessary costs, right?

00:31:31 ◼   ► But they said that Apple needs to say what they are.

00:31:34 ◼   ► What are the necessary costs?

00:31:37 ◼   ► Apple was proposed as something that should not surprise anyone.

00:31:41 ◼   ► What they would like to charge is 15% for standard apps, which is subject

00:31:44 ◼   ► to a 30% in at purchase commission.

00:31:47 ◼   ► So if you're subject to the regular 30% and you want to uh have

00:31:50 ◼   ► payments outside, they want to take 15% of that.

00:31:53 ◼   ► They want to take 10% for anybody in the programs like the video partner

00:31:57 ◼   ► program, the news program, the mini apps partner program, and for subscription renewals.

00:32:02 ◼   ► And they want to take 5% for small business apps.

00:32:05 ◼   ► That's what they want.

00:32:06 ◼   ► However, Apple have said that necessary costs are essentially zero.

00:32:13 ◼   ► But based on expert analysis, it believes that quote, large numbers of US developers

00:32:18 ◼   ► collectively accounting for the lion's share of App Store revenue will be able to

00:32:22 ◼   ► link out profitably under the proposal that they would like.

00:32:25 ◼   ► And this would allow them to then recoup compensation for tools and technologies that

00:32:30 ◼   ► they provide developers.

00:32:31 ◼   ► They are arguing that the necessary costs definition is much too narrow, and are

00:32:36 ◼   ► saying it doesn't cost them anything directly to deliver this stuff, but that's not

00:32:41 ◼   ► the argument they are making.

00:32:43 ◼   ► Which is this is very funny to me because it's like you finally got

00:32:46 ◼   ► someone to take your appeal, but you're like, but no, you've you didn't take

00:32:51 ◼   ► it the right way.

00:32:53 ◼   ► You're doing it wrong.

00:32:55 ◼   ► Um as well as this, Apple has asked Judge Gonzalez Rogers to order both

00:33:01 ◼   ► company uh companies, so Apple and Apple to a settlement conference to reach a

00:33:05 ◼   ► resolution.

00:33:06 ◼   ► Epic's response to all of this is essentially saying all they've ever wanted to

00:33:10 ◼   ► do is settle it, but do not believe that Apple will settle anything that

00:33:14 ◼   ► will create fair competition.

00:33:15 ◼   ► They will participate if asked.

00:33:17 ◼   ► Sure.

00:33:18 ◼   ► So we'll see where it goes next.

00:33:21 ◼   ► Yeah, I mean, I guess I you gotta admire Apple for just sticking to

00:33:27 ◼   ► their story.

00:33:29 ◼   ► I'm not sure any of this is necessary costs, right?

00:33:29 ◼   ► Which is what they're saying, which is hilarious, really.

00:33:34 ◼   ► I I love that they still they can't find an argument.

00:33:38 ◼   ► I'll tell you, Apple thinks it's necessary for them for them to make big

00:33:44 ◼   ► profits on this.

00:33:45 ◼   ► That's what they think is necessary.

00:33:46 ◼   ► Apple, I I I really believe that Apple is just like, but what are

00:33:49 ◼   ► you talking about?

00:33:50 ◼   ► We deserve a big percentage of everything that happens in our platform.

00:33:54 ◼   ► That it's necessary for us to get that because we say it is.

00:34:31 ◼   ► But what I have read, because I I was reading the settlement to try

00:34:34 ◼   ► and kind of get their language, it just it it kind of feels to

00:34:38 ◼   ► me that they know they're not gonna win this argument, right?

00:34:41 ◼   ► Because it's they have answered it accurately.

00:34:45 ◼   ► There are no necessary costs if they are not facilitating the transaction.

00:34:51 ◼   ► So if if you think about how this case has progressed, Judge Rogers said,

00:34:58 ◼   ► you need to, you need to fix this, but I'm not gonna tell you

00:35:01 ◼   ► how to fix it.

00:35:02 ◼   ► It's a cla it's this classic legal maneuver, which is like, I'm not gonna

00:35:05 ◼   ► tell you what to do, which on one level is admirable, it's admirable.

00:35:08 ◼   ► It's like, I know you I don't know your business like you do.

00:35:11 ◼   ► You tell me, now that I've given you the guidelines here, which is that

00:35:14 ◼   ► we need to have competition, this needs to be fair on the people who

00:35:17 ◼   ► are building apps on your platform.

00:35:18 ◼   ► You come up with a solution that solves this.

00:35:21 ◼   ► And Apple came back with its solution that was so laughable that it absolutely

00:35:25 ◼   ► did not solve it.

00:35:26 ◼   ► And Judge Rogers was like, Well, that's so bad, you're in contempt, so it's

00:35:30 ◼   ► now zero, right?

00:35:32 ◼   ► Like now there's nothing, right?

00:35:34 ◼   ► And Apple's like, oh, but that's not fair, and you know, contempt, you know,

00:35:39 ◼   ► is it like just because we didn't like understand?

00:35:42 ◼   ► Is that contempt?

00:35:43 ◼   ► And again, I don't really buy it, but but you're you're seeing Apple kind

00:35:48 ◼   ► of like going up, going down.

00:35:50 ◼   ► And by making this proposal that is again not interesting, and not, I would

00:35:55 ◼   ► say, in line with what Judge Gonzalez Rogers wants, and then also saying, Can

00:36:00 ◼   ► we talk?

00:36:01 ◼   ► Can we can we can we talk?

00:36:04 ◼   ► It does make me wonder if what Apple's sort of doing is saying, Look,

00:36:08 ◼   ► tell me, tell me what you want.

00:36:10 ◼   ► Like, let what do you want?

00:36:12 ◼   ► What what do we have to do?

00:36:14 ◼   ► It's almost like a settlement conference that's really with the judge, and Epic can

00:36:18 ◼   ► also be there, which is like because Epic's gonna be like nothing.

00:36:21 ◼   ► Like, okay, and Apple's like, everything.

00:36:24 ◼   ► And then they both look at the judge, and the judge is like, you

00:36:26 ◼   ► guys.

00:36:27 ◼   ► Uh, and then she'll be like, How about this?

00:36:31 ◼   ► How do people feel feel about this?

00:36:32 ◼   ► And and in some ways, it really may be a conversation between Apple and

00:36:37 ◼   ► the judge about like what will she feel fulfilled by?

00:36:40 ◼   ► That that's like, okay, this is a this is the way to do it.

00:36:44 ◼   ► Because I think in the end, Apple knows they Apple has learned the hard

00:36:47 ◼   ► way that no compromise can lead to no money, right?

00:36:51 ◼   ► Like, okay, you don't want to compromise, then you are uh not allowed to

00:36:54 ◼   ► take anything.

00:36:55 ◼   ► That's not good.

00:36:56 ◼   ► They don't want that.

00:36:57 ◼   ► So I I and I've seen I think we've seen this in some other

00:37:00 ◼   ► parts of the world that Apple finally comes around to sort of like, what

00:37:06 ◼   ► can we do?

00:37:07 ◼   ► What's the least we can do, right?

00:37:09 ◼   ► Cause the maximalist approach that they've taken is not it.

00:37:14 ◼   ► So what do they want to do?

00:37:16 ◼   ► It's like what what's the least they can do?

00:37:18 ◼   ► They should have started there, maybe.

00:37:21 ◼   ► Like that's a good place to start negotiation, is this is the least we

00:37:24 ◼   ► could do.

00:37:24 ◼   ► But they started at Mac, okay, but at some point you've got to say,

00:37:27 ◼   ► okay, let's let's make a deal.

00:37:28 ◼   ► So I think that that's what's going on here Apple's trying to find a

00:37:33 ◼   ► way to settle.

00:37:34 ◼   ► Um my problem with that is that I don't think Epic is gonna ever

00:37:40 ◼   ► accept terms that Apple would suggest.

00:37:42 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:37:43 ◼   ► So that leaves the judge in the middle.

00:37:46 ◼   ► And I think in the maybe she's gonna have to make a ruling about

00:37:50 ◼   ► it.

00:37:51 ◼   ► And there is also this the Supreme Court did say they would hear the

00:37:55 ◼   ► argument as well.

00:37:56 ◼   ► Like I'm I'm not exactly sure why it was appealed to both a Ninth

00:38:00 ◼   ► Circuit Court and the Supreme Court.

00:38:02 ◼   ► Like it I'm not I don't fully understand why that happened.

00:38:07 ◼   ► The the way it works is you say, hey, hey, um, you can't go

00:38:13 ◼   ► straight to the Supreme Court.

00:38:13 ◼   ► Okay.

00:38:14 ◼   ► You can try, but you basically can't.

00:38:15 ◼   ► And the Trump administration tries that.

00:38:17 ◼   ► But so basically what they say is, um, we don't like the the district

00:38:21 ◼   ► court ruling.

00:38:22 ◼   ► You go to the circuit court, you say, we don't like this.

00:38:24 ◼   ► And the circuit court's like, it's fine.

00:38:26 ◼   ► You're like, oh, well, then we have to go to the Supreme Court.

00:38:28 ◼   ► That's that's your next step.

00:38:30 ◼   ► Okay.

00:38:30 ◼   ► The Supreme Court, in this case, was like, yeah, that's interesting.

00:38:37 ◼   ► Um, but the but the Ninth Circuit also I think has their ruling, which

00:38:43 ◼   ► is sort of like, well, we could talk about necessary costs.

00:38:46 ◼   ► So those things are happening in parallel.

00:38:44 ◼   ► Okay.

00:38:48 ◼   ► Um, and then it ends up the way the s legal system often works

00:38:51 ◼   ► is it ends up getting referred back to Judge Rogers because they the they

00:38:55 ◼   ► don't retry the case.

00:38:57 ◼   ► They just give some instructions about how the judge should rule.

00:38:59 ◼   ► So I think we've got two things going on in parallel, which is a

00:39:02 ◼   ► little bit weird.

00:39:03 ◼   ► Well, it's almost like three things going on in parallel, right?

00:39:05 ◼   ► We've got the Ninth Circuit Court, we've got the Supreme Court, and then we've

00:39:08 ◼   ► got the settlement conference now.

00:39:10 ◼   ► Well, right, right, which is trying to preempt the rest of it from happening.

00:39:14 ◼   ► Um, because I think the the best result, we talked about it a little

00:39:17 ◼   ► bit.

00:39:17 ◼   ► Um, the best result of the Supreme Court for Apple is going to be

00:39:20 ◼   ► uh them saying, Oh, yeah, she can't she can't rule you in contempt for

00:39:26 ◼   ► something that she didn't give you sp specific instructions about.

00:39:29 ◼   ► So we will refer it back to her to give you specific instructions.

00:39:33 ◼   ► Like that I think that's the best they can get is that Judge Rogers

00:39:35 ◼   ► will once again tell you what to do, which is not good for Apple,

00:39:40 ◼   ► really, because she's not gonna say you're fine.

00:39:43 ◼   ► She's gonna say, do better, which is so I it actually feels like all

00:39:48 ◼   ► of this is kind of converging in the same place, which is they need

00:39:50 ◼   ► to make a deal and they need to step off of their box, step

00:39:54 ◼   ► off of their their high horse and say, Okay, what could this look like

00:39:59 ◼   ► where we get our money and you get your money and everybody makes more

00:40:05 ◼   ► money and it's more fair and there's more competition, but not too much, and

00:40:09 ◼   ► we all walk away.

00:40:11 ◼   ► And that's I guess what they'll try to do, which we've all been saying

00:40:14 ◼   ► that from the beginning.

00:40:15 ◼   ► It's like Apple could avoid a lot of this and if they had been

00:40:19 ◼   ► more reasonable with their their dealings, but I think Apple's counter might be, yeah,

00:40:23 ◼   ► but if you add up what we paid the lawyers and what we ended

00:40:28 ◼   ► up getting instead of what we would have prepared, we made more money.

00:40:31 ◼   ► Like, right?

00:40:32 ◼   ► If it if it ends up with a plan that's better than the one

00:40:35 ◼   ► they would have been stuck with, then maybe it's worth it for them to

00:40:38 ◼   ► go through all of this just to be obstinate and save some money in

00:40:41 ◼   ► the end.

00:40:41 ◼   ► It's unfortunate though.

00:40:43 ◼   ► Yep.

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00:43:22 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:43:24 ◼   ► The beta for Mac OS 26.7 Tahoe accidentally revealed a lot of things.

00:43:31 ◼   ► Mac Rumors has a great list where they've been able to work out some

00:43:35 ◼   ► products from code names and references, including this there's a lot here, two home

00:43:41 ◼   ► hubs, which they expect is one with a base and one to be mounted

00:43:44 ◼   ► on a wall, a new home pub mini, a set of home accessories of

00:43:50 ◼   ► some kind, some feature sets or sensors, one maybe with a camera, sorry, right?

00:43:54 ◼   ► So it's like their home smart home stuff.

00:43:57 ◼   ► References to something called Pebble, which has been previously reported as home OS for

00:44:01 ◼   ► the home hub.

00:44:02 ◼   ► AirPods with cameras.

00:44:04 ◼   ► Then there was a separate report that shows a video of someone using them

00:44:09 ◼   ► to scan a book with the with the audio in the video saying with

00:44:13 ◼   ► visual intelligence, your world becomes saveable.

00:44:16 ◼   ► See something you like, just ask me to save it for later.

00:44:19 ◼   ► So it's like a help video of some kind.

00:44:21 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:44:22 ◼   ► Um there's also a note that's this is from the Macromus article.

00:44:26 ◼   ► If hair is covering the AirPods, you receive an alert, which is to get

00:44:30 ◼   ► the most accurate information about things in your environment.

00:44:32 ◼   ► Make sure your AirPods are not covered.

00:44:35 ◼   ► So that's how they deal with it.

00:44:36 ◼   ► They just say don't do it.

00:44:39 ◼   ► Don't cover them.

00:44:40 ◼   ► Uh so when we'll probably come back to this.

00:44:42 ◼   ► I'll just finish this list.

00:44:43 ◼   ► AirPods Pro 4, all of the 18 lines of iPhones are referenced to their

00:44:48 ◼   ► codes.

00:44:49 ◼   ► Uh like they're they're just like code names.

00:44:51 ◼   ► Uh a series of Macs, including two iMac models, something that they expect to

00:44:55 ◼   ► be the M16 14, uh the M6 14-inch MacBook Pro, three other MacBook Pro

00:45:02 ◼   ► models with the expectation that OLED's in there somewhere, a new iPad mini, and

00:45:07 ◼   ► a reference to a headset that's not the Vision Pro.

00:45:09 ◼   ► So much stuff, which is pretty rough.

00:45:15 ◼   ► Hey Mike.

00:45:15 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:45:16 ◼   ► Do you remember when in 2012 when Tim Cook said Apple was gonna double

00:45:19 ◼   ► down on secrecy?

00:45:20 ◼   ► I mean, you know.

00:45:21 ◼   ► Do you think John Turnus is gonna like half up on secrecy?

00:45:24 ◼   ► It's not what's happening here.

00:45:26 ◼   ► Like they told anyone about it.

00:45:28 ◼   ► They just they just didn't do it.

00:45:30 ◼   ► Well, but secrecy, secrecy is like not putting things in the beta, you know.

00:45:35 ◼   ► I think maybe maybe uh so you know you got like loose lips sync

00:45:40 ◼   ► ships.

00:45:41 ◼   ► You could have like loose code sink sinks boats, we can go with that,

00:45:45 ◼   ► something like that.

00:45:46 ◼   ► We'll get in there somewhere.

00:45:44 ◼   ► Okay, it's uh it it's it's congratulations to Mark German.

00:45:52 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:45:52 ◼   ► Because we already know about all of these things because Mark German has reported

00:45:56 ◼   ► them.

00:45:57 ◼   ► But these are all confirming things we already had reported by Mark German, which

00:46:00 ◼   ► is a very strong correlation that these things are happening and that they are

00:46:05 ◼   ► coming soon.

00:46:07 ◼   ► So um the home strategy, clearly.

00:46:11 ◼   ► AirPods with cameras, which I I I'm glad at least that we know now

00:46:15 ◼   ► what AirPods with Cameras is supposed to be for, because it never really seemed

00:46:19 ◼   ► to make a lot of sense to me.

00:46:20 ◼   ► The idea that it's uh there I mean we'll see how the world views

00:46:25 ◼   ► it.

00:46:25 ◼   ► We'll see how the world views it and if they think it's like creepy

00:46:28 ◼   ► specs or or whether Apple will get away with it.

00:46:30 ◼   ► But if you're trying to frame it as visual intelligence and you're you're not

00:46:34 ◼   ► using it to creep, then maybe, but what we'll see.

00:46:37 ◼   ► And the hair alert is pretty good too, right?

00:46:40 ◼   ► Like you're too hairy.

00:46:41 ◼   ► Fix it.

00:46:44 ◼   ► I s so people were posting this on social media, right?

00:46:48 ◼   ► And I was just looking at the responses, and there's so many people who

00:46:51 ◼   ► are like, I don't want cameras, get these cameras out of here, which is

00:46:54 ◼   ► how people are going to react to this product.

00:46:56 ◼   ► I don't I don't know how they're going to deal with this.

00:46:59 ◼   ► I think if you say there's a camera of any kind, I don't think

00:47:03 ◼   ► anybody will care enough to learn about exactly how it works and how it

00:47:07 ◼   ► doesn't.

00:47:07 ◼   ► Uh and so uh we will see, I guess, uh how they want to

00:47:11 ◼   ► deal with that.

00:47:12 ◼   ► But yeah, there's a lot of stuff in here.

00:47:13 ◼   ► As you say, there's not a lot that we didn't know about, but it's

00:47:16 ◼   ► interesting if it's in twenty six point seven, we would expect a lot of

00:47:22 ◼   ► these things are coming relatively soon, right?

00:47:25 ◼   ► So because why would you need to put them in point seven?

00:47:30 ◼   ► It's I I think I think a a lot of the stuff might be

00:47:33 ◼   ► in the iPhone event, really.

00:47:35 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:47:35 ◼   ► I think the uh iPhone event may be shaping up to be, you know,

00:47:40 ◼   ► home watch iPhone Pro, iPhone fold.

00:47:47 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:47:48 ◼   ► I mean, because if you think about it, they're saving time because then they

00:47:51 ◼   ► have they're not gonna have all the iPhones in the September event.

00:47:55 ◼   ► So there's definitely space within the game.

00:47:57 ◼   ► Well, they're taking two out and putting one in, so Yeah.

00:48:01 ◼   ► Or I guess taking three out and putting one in.

00:48:03 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:48:04 ◼   ► So like that, you know, they have a they potentially have a bit of

00:48:07 ◼   ► extra time if they cared about such a thing.

00:48:09 ◼   ► Uh I don't expect two outs.

00:48:12 ◼   ► Two outs, two out and one in, but yeah, sure.

00:48:13 ◼   ► Sure.

00:48:14 ◼   ► I don't expect Macs though, right?

00:48:15 ◼   ► Like at this point.

00:48:17 ◼   ► I can't I I feel like the Macs are completely unhinged from this and

00:48:20 ◼   ► they'll be elsewhere in there.

00:48:21 ◼   ► Like 'cause we don't even know because of I mean, unhinged is the wrong

00:48:24 ◼   ► word, except it is Macs are unhinged right now because of the RAM stuff.

00:48:27 ◼   ► It's like what why are they gonna release like we're happy to release these

00:48:32 ◼   ► to announce these Macs?

00:48:33 ◼   ► We have no idea when we'll make them, but um they'll come eventually.

00:48:36 ◼   ► Good luck, bye.

00:48:37 ◼   ► You know what?

00:48:38 ◼   ► Like I don't even know what's going on with those, right?

00:48:40 ◼   ► That that's a real struggle for them.

00:48:42 ◼   ► So I I can't envision uh Mac content at this event.

00:48:45 ◼   ► Uh that's you do you either do a later event or no event.

00:48:48 ◼   ► I I and now that feels that that's got strong New York event energy

00:48:52 ◼   ► to me.

00:48:52 ◼   ► October New York event energy, I would say.

00:48:55 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:48:57 ◼   ► I feel like late, late October, early November, New York, here's some new Macs,

00:49:01 ◼   ► bye bye, that kind of thing.

00:49:03 ◼   ► Yeah, because I feel like if they're gonna do the OLED specifically, that's not

00:49:07 ◼   ► just gonna be a press release, right?

00:49:09 ◼   ► They're gonna want people to have some kind of curated experience uh around that.

00:49:14 ◼   ► If well, because it's not just OLED, it's a touch screen, right?

00:49:16 ◼   ► Is the rumor.

00:49:17 ◼   ► Like I I can't imagine that they just drop a touch screen at OLED

00:49:20 ◼   ► MacBook Pro or brand new design in a press release.

00:49:23 ◼   ► Like it I think you're right, it sounds like uh an event of some

00:49:26 ◼   ► description, somewhere one of these like little ones where they have a few different

00:49:30 ◼   ► things going on at once, that kind of thing.

00:49:34 ◼   ► No.

00:49:34 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah.

00:49:35 ◼   ► It's it's I don't know.

00:49:38 ◼   ► Really interesting.

00:49:39 ◼   ► Um it's all in the details.

00:49:42 ◼   ► This is the beauty.

00:49:43 ◼   ► I know people are like, oh, Mark Riman, he's spoiling the element of surprise.

00:49:46 ◼   ► But you know, for me, I think, and I think for all of our

00:49:50 ◼   ► dear upgradians out there, it's in the details.

00:49:53 ◼   ► It's the storytelling.

00:49:54 ◼   ► I I I I know I reinforce this every time, but like for me,

00:49:57 ◼   ► always the most interesting thing about an Apple product rollout is the storytelling around

00:50:01 ◼   ► the product because that's Apple.

00:50:03 ◼   ► That's Steve Jobs' secret sauce, and it remains Apple's magic.

00:50:07 ◼   ► Is they they build this interesting technology, but you know, there's a lot of

00:50:11 ◼   ► interesting technology, but like what's the story about it?

00:50:14 ◼   ► How do they intend?

00:50:15 ◼   ► Because the story about it is not just a marketing and PR spin, it's

00:50:18 ◼   ► how they envision the product.

00:50:20 ◼   ► This is why when you look through history uh of Apple products, you see,

00:50:23 ◼   ► like, wait a second, the product marketing people are involved in the creation of

00:50:26 ◼   ► the products.

00:50:27 ◼   ► It's like to a certain extent, yeah.

00:50:28 ◼   ► Phil Schiller helped, you know, create aspects of the iPod, right?

00:50:32 ◼   ► It's like, well, yeah, because part of the the making of the product is

00:50:36 ◼   ► the idea of how it gets used.

00:50:38 ◼   ► The story of how it gets used is part of the product.

00:50:41 ◼   ► You don't, if you make a product without a story around it, you've got

00:50:44 ◼   ► a product that doesn't have a reason to exist, and they want it to

00:50:47 ◼   ► have a reason to exist.

00:50:48 ◼   ► So always look at the storytelling, always look at um what they what they

00:50:56 ◼   ► call it, what they price it, what they name it, the examples they give.

00:50:59 ◼   ► And that's why I'm excited about these products, is because especially in new categories.

00:51:03 ◼   ► I mean, the folding phone is a good example of an a new product.

00:51:06 ◼   ► It's like it's not just a folding fold.

00:51:08 ◼   ► We've seen some folding phones, but an iPhone, and how does Apple spin it

00:51:11 ◼   ► differently?

00:51:11 ◼   ► But the home stuff, like what are they gonna say about that?

00:51:14 ◼   ► That uh yeah, I cannot wait to see what they say.

00:51:18 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:51:19 ◼   ► You know, you mentioned Mark German being the spoiler.

00:51:21 ◼   ► If you'll allow me to do some follow-out, uh it's probably by the end

00:51:26 ◼   ► of this week, the next episode of Cortex will be out on Mark is

00:51:29 ◼   ► my guest.

00:51:30 ◼   ► And I ask him this, I ask him specifically about this.

00:51:33 ◼   ► How do you feel about being called the spoiler?

00:51:35 ◼   ► Um, so he's Mark's uh it's a very interesting conversation that I think listeners

00:51:39 ◼   ► of this show especially will appreciate.

00:51:42 ◼   ► So you can look out for that in the Cortex feed sometime this week.

00:51:46 ◼   ► Speaking of Mark German, uh who I said to him, you are the uh

00:51:50 ◼   ► the star of a segment on upgrade, which he knows about.

00:51:53 ◼   ► Um Mark German reports in Bloomberg that Apple is still on track to release

00:52:00 ◼   ► a quote glass-centric 20th anniversary phone next year.

00:52:05 ◼   ► This report counters an analyst report from Edison Lee at Jeffries, who said that

00:52:11 ◼   ► the device had been cancelled.

00:52:13 ◼   ► According to Mark, this phone is uh to use glass, quote, on the front

00:52:18 ◼   ► and back, and will curve into the sides of a metal band in the

00:52:22 ◼   ► middle.

00:52:23 ◼   ► I was I read this and I was like, I don't understand what you're

00:52:27 ◼   ► trying to tell me.

00:52:28 ◼   ► Right?

00:52:29 ◼   ► Like, what is a g glass on both sides of a metal band?

00:52:32 ◼   ► Like that I've seen that lots of times, right?

00:52:34 ◼   ► Like I don't understand that.

00:52:36 ◼   ► Uh so I was looking around a little bit more.

00:52:38 ◼   ► According uh to Mac rumors, uh, they um they were reporting on Weibo Leaker

00:52:44 ◼   ► Digital chat station, who gives a little more information, at least, says the two

00:52:48 ◼   ► new displays have increased in physical size while retaining the same aspect ratio.

00:52:52 ◼   ► The rationale for this is that Apple's borderless four curved edge design uses a

00:52:58 ◼   ► flat 2D display combined with a glass cover, and that takes advantage of the

00:53:03 ◼   ► glass's optical refraction and shape to create the visual effect of a display lacking

00:53:09 ◼   ► borders.

00:53:11 ◼   ► So it's what it's what they're doing with the glass that makes the phone's

00:53:17 ◼   ► screen look different more than the fact that it's made of glass.

00:53:21 ◼   ► Right.

00:53:21 ◼   ► It's curving off the edges.

00:53:23 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:53:23 ◼   ► It's falling off the edges.

00:53:25 ◼   ► So it feels like it could be an entirely piece of glass, but there

00:53:28 ◼   ► is a metal band in the middle.

00:53:31 ◼   ► Which I think is the source of Edison Lee's report.

00:53:33 ◼   ► Because Mark what Mark German said is there was also a model that they

00:53:37 ◼   ► were uh, you know, a design they were trying that would be sort of

00:53:41 ◼   ► like all glass on the outside, yeah, and they couldn't get it right.

00:53:45 ◼   ► So they went up forward with this design, and he's like, ah, they they

00:53:48 ◼   ► failed at their thing.

00:53:49 ◼   ► And Mark German's like, that was a long time ago, and they have it

00:53:53 ◼   ► was one of the iterations, and they're still going forward with this.

00:53:56 ◼   ► But yeah, it's the it's the almost illusion that the device is all glass

00:54:01 ◼   ► and all screen, and that's what they're going for.

00:54:05 ◼   ► And I wonder if it's like this is something they learned from the Apple

00:54:08 ◼   ► Watch, because that was one of the one of the Apple Watch models, right?

00:54:11 ◼   ► Where they created the like the they had like a watch face that was

00:54:15 ◼   ► kind of made it look like it was going over the sides.

00:54:18 ◼   ► Because there was one year where they did the kind of refraction thing to

00:54:21 ◼   ► make the screen look bigger.

00:54:22 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:54:22 ◼   ► And there are some other phones that have done stuff like this and to

00:54:25 ◼   ► varying degrees.

00:54:26 ◼   ► Um and yeah, I think I think that's what they're going for here.

00:54:29 ◼   ► Is they they want to build something that really gives the sense that I

00:54:33 ◼   ► believe has been I know I said this about the iPhone 10, but I'd

00:54:37 ◼   ► say that that this is another step along that journey, which is I I'm

00:54:40 ◼   ► sure Johnny Ives' initial conception for the iPhone was the ideal iPhone is just

00:54:45 ◼   ► a piece of glass with that that is nothing but screen.

00:54:47 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:54:48 ◼   ► And they keep moving toward that idea.

00:54:51 ◼   ► Like, and and with Johnny Ive, it's like no home button.

00:54:54 ◼   ► Okay.

00:54:55 ◼   ► No um charger.

00:54:57 ◼   ► Ultimately, it's like no cutouts for photo for cameras.

00:55:00 ◼   ► Yeah, just screen.

00:55:02 ◼   ► And if you need cameras, the cameras are invisible under the screen or whatever.

00:55:06 ◼   ► Like nothing else.

00:55:07 ◼   ► I think that is their goal.

00:55:10 ◼   ► What do you think they're gonna call this iPhone?

00:55:14 ◼   ► iPhone 20.

00:55:16 ◼   ► 20.

00:55:18 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:55:19 ◼   ► They're not gonna do double X, right?

00:55:21 ◼   ► No.

00:55:22 ◼   ► That was a mistake, I think.

00:55:23 ◼   ► Right?

00:55:24 ◼   ► I think in hindsight, very quickly they should they probably realize that the 10

00:55:29 ◼   ► was a mistake.

00:55:30 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:55:31 ◼   ► Name it.

00:55:32 ◼   ► That's fine.

00:55:32 ◼   ► You can get away with it.

00:55:33 ◼   ► You can get away with it.

00:55:34 ◼   ► But um, I'm sure that's Elon Musk's favorite iPhone of all time.

00:55:37 ◼   ► Oh my god, uh, that guy.

00:55:39 ◼   ► Uh so double X, I yeah, I think it seems unlikely that that they'll

00:55:42 ◼   ► do that.

00:55:43 ◼   ► They could, but there's no doubt.

00:55:44 ◼   ► They Apple's had a lot of X branding, they haven't a lot of double

00:55:47 ◼   ► X branding.

00:55:47 ◼   ► What about it?

00:55:48 ◼   ► I think it's yeah, I think it'll be 20.

00:55:49 ◼   ► What about the 20th anniversary iPhone?

00:55:51 ◼   ► No.

00:55:52 ◼   ► I think it'll be on the iPhone 20.

00:55:53 ◼   ► Or or or or iPhone 20 Pro, maybe.

00:55:57 ◼   ► We'll see.

00:55:58 ◼   ► Right.

00:55:58 ◼   ► They might still do a 20, right?

00:56:00 ◼   ► If is there a is there a what else is there?

00:56:03 ◼   ► Is there a 19 Pro and a 20?

00:56:06 ◼   ► Right?

00:56:06 ◼   ► That I mean they history suggests yes, right?

00:56:10 ◼   ► Because when the iPhone 10 came out, they brought out the eight alongside it.

00:56:14 ◼   ► Yeah, but there were no there were no non-pro iPhones at that point.

00:56:20 ◼   ► So you could do the iPhone 20 Pro and then in the spring do

00:56:24 ◼   ► the iPhone 20, that's just the non pro.

00:56:27 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:56:28 ◼   ► Or you could call it the iPhone 20, keeping in mind that this would

00:56:31 ◼   ► be so this fall we're gonna have the iPhone 18.

00:56:36 ◼   ► So you could next year have the iPhone 20 and the iPhone 19 if

00:56:39 ◼   ► you really wanted to, but 19 Pro, but I think it would be confusing.

00:56:43 ◼   ► So I if I had to guess right now, just on the spur of

00:56:46 ◼   ► the moment, I would say it's probably just iPhone 20 or iPhone 20 Pro.

00:56:51 ◼   ► Probably iPo iPhone 20 Pro, in fact.

00:56:53 ◼   ► And they just skip 19.

00:56:55 ◼   ► Or the 19 Pro is alongside.

00:56:56 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:56:57 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:56:58 ◼   ► Because I could imagine a scenario where they bring out a 19 Pro and

00:57:01 ◼   ► then a 20, and a 20 is more expensive.

00:57:03 ◼   ► It's like an and maybe they get rid of the air at that point.

00:57:07 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:57:08 ◼   ► The 20 is like it's like on top of the 19.

00:57:11 ◼   ► Right.

00:57:11 ◼   ► And then that spring they come out with a 19, and then what, the

00:57:14 ◼   ► next year they come out with the 21 and the 21 and they skip?

00:57:18 ◼   ► Because you've got to skip numbers.

00:57:19 ◼   ► Yeah, you gotta skip them at some point, haven't you?

00:57:21 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:57:22 ◼   ► But that I mean that and that is valid, that the next year the

00:57:24 ◼   ► iPhone 20 becomes the 21 Pro and the and then the following spring you

00:57:29 ◼   ► get an iPhone 21 regular.

00:57:31 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:57:33 ◼   ► The 20 was a one mile deal.

00:57:35 ◼   ► Is definitely not made any easier by the fact they're splitting the release.

00:57:39 ◼   ► Right.

00:57:40 ◼   ► It is totally, totally not.

00:57:42 ◼   ► But that's that's my guess.

00:57:44 ◼   ► I I guess the other the other option would be that this is iPhone

00:57:48 ◼   ► Ultra, if they don't name the folding phone that.

00:57:51 ◼   ► And the advantage of that is they get to start the numbering again.

00:57:56 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:57:57 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:57:58 ◼   ► Because then it's ultra ultra too.

00:57:59 ◼   ► Yeah, I wonder if they call the air the air to or if they

00:57:59 ◼   ► just call it the air.

00:58:03 ◼   ► I don't I want I wouldn't be surprised if they just called it the

00:58:06 ◼   ► air and they didn't number it.

00:58:07 ◼   ► Maybe.

00:58:09 ◼   ► Speaking of, actually, um, Mark reiterates in that report that the plan obviously is

00:58:14 ◼   ► still to release the second waves of iPhone line in the spring, and notes

00:58:18 ◼   ► that the air will indeed get a second camera, better processor, and more battery.

00:58:23 ◼   ► Right.

00:58:23 ◼   ► That are gonna have a good second crack at that product.

00:58:27 ◼   ► Yeah, it does it does sort of feel like maybe the air will then

00:58:30 ◼   ► be subsumed by this.

00:58:32 ◼   ► I think so.

00:58:33 ◼   ► I think again, it's like that cursed fourth iPhone.

00:58:37 ◼   ► What if you actually just went all the way to the very tippy top?

00:58:40 ◼   ► You think people would dig that more than the air, which is like that's

00:58:44 ◼   ► a really interesting phone, but you're you're losing some stuff and maybe not gaining

00:58:49 ◼   ► enough, where like, you know, with the folding phone, you're gonna lose some stuff,

00:58:52 ◼   ► but you're you're gaining something quite unique, which is better than just it's slim,

00:58:57 ◼   ► which is lovely.

00:58:57 ◼   ► Like the slimness of the nights of the air is amazing, but that is

00:59:01 ◼   ► not as good as there's a tablet inside.

00:59:04 ◼   ► What about um what about iPhone Tippy Top?

00:59:07 ◼   ► iPhone Tippy Top?

00:59:08 ◼   ► That's what they should call it.

00:59:10 ◼   ► Yep.

00:59:10 ◼   ► And you could, yeah, I love it.

00:59:12 ◼   ► Anyway, uh the Wall Street Journal.

00:59:13 ◼   ► iPhone 20 tippy top.

00:59:15 ◼   ► There you go.

00:59:16 ◼   ► Why not?

00:59:16 ◼   ► I mean, they just keep adding names to everything.

00:59:18 ◼   ► Uh the Wall Street Journal is back again reporting that Apple is in talks

00:59:22 ◼   ► to pay publishers to give Siri AI better access to news and current events.

00:59:27 ◼   ► According to the journals, some of these figures are reading into the hundreds of

00:59:31 ◼   ► millions of dollars over multiple years.

00:59:33 ◼   ► Quote, Apple has published a variable compensation plan with payments made to partners, partner

00:59:39 ◼   ► publishers with their where their content is used, some of the people said.

00:59:42 ◼   ► The company has discussed a possible nine-figure budget for the payments.

00:59:46 ◼   ► Assumedly, these deals would stop any potential litigation between these publishers and Apple because

00:59:52 ◼   ► many AI companies are seeing this, as well as giving Siri good source information

00:59:56 ◼   ► to pull from a point to.

00:59:57 ◼   ► Yeah, you want to create a subsystem here that is if you ask about

01:00:01 ◼   ► current events.

01:00:02 ◼   ► I have a database of newspapers and other news sources from which I can

01:00:05 ◼   ► draw directly and say this is what's happening, and then I can spin out

01:00:08 ◼   ► links.

01:00:08 ◼   ► And you kind of need to have this, right?

01:00:10 ◼   ► Because your model is old is trained on old news.

01:00:12 ◼   ► So you need your model to have um current events content and uh you

01:00:17 ◼   ► know, license it from sources and have good and have a good search engine

01:00:21 ◼   ► that hits that that gives you content that you're allowed to index and search

01:00:26 ◼   ► and and recite and maybe even read content from.

01:00:29 ◼   ► I mean, that's good.

01:00:30 ◼   ► That's good.

01:00:31 ◼   ► You should do that.

01:00:32 ◼   ► And you should pay those people who are generating that content.

01:00:34 ◼   ► I mean, this is essentially a search engine deal where the search engines are

01:00:39 ◼   ► paying for it the content that they're indexing, which is um that not what

01:00:43 ◼   ► happened with web search engines back in the day.

01:00:46 ◼   ► I like it.

01:00:47 ◼   ► And also hasn't happened with the creation of even you know Apple's Apple Intelligence

01:00:51 ◼   ► models where they just scrape the web to the code.

01:00:53 ◼   ► Of course, right?

01:00:53 ◼   ► Of course.

01:00:54 ◼   ► Um but this is different in that it's not training a model.

01:00:57 ◼   ► Yes.

01:00:57 ◼   ► What we're here, what we're saying is it's basically letting Apple's AI query this

01:01:03 ◼   ► particular essentially search index for current events content.

01:01:07 ◼   ► And then and and so it's a it's licensing that index they're gonna build

01:01:11 ◼   ► a news index, which is great.

01:01:13 ◼   ► That's that's good.

01:01:14 ◼   ► I like it.

01:01:15 ◼   ► This is this story is funny to me because it's like some of the

01:01:17 ◼   ► Apple news stuff of like, where or where did the Wall Street Journal get

01:01:21 ◼   ► this information?

01:01:22 ◼   ► Who I was told though who could it be?

01:01:26 ◼   ► Was it around the water cooler, maybe?

01:01:28 ◼   ► Someone found this out.

01:01:30 ◼   ► And according to the ILAC, Apple has made the decision earlier this year to

01:01:35 ◼   ► start keeping OLED panels in reserve for a six-week period instead of a four-week

01:01:39 ◼   ► period.

01:01:40 ◼   ► This appears to be a way for them to make better purchasing decisions when

01:01:44 ◼   ► pricing pricing is preferable.

01:01:46 ◼   ► And while this component is not seeing the issues that the RAM and storage

01:01:49 ◼   ► are, it is a it's a belief that this is an indication of them

01:01:53 ◼   ► trying to do things in their operational pipeline to alleviate some of the overall

01:01:58 ◼   ► costs of their products.

01:01:59 ◼   ► And so I expect that this is just an example of other things that

01:02:02 ◼   ► they are doing, which is like a break from the norm for them for

01:02:05 ◼   ► holding on to inventory of anything, but maybe they're doing more fine-grained deals and

01:02:13 ◼   ► um kind of expanding these timelines on some of their products to kind of

01:02:17 ◼   ► try and get them the best margins they can get overall in EchoCode.

01:02:20 ◼   ► If if you see some volatility, if you can expand your your buying horizon

01:02:25 ◼   ► so you you you know, you're not holding you can hold on to those

01:02:27 ◼   ► parts for six weeks and not just four weeks.

01:02:30 ◼   ► That means that, you know, there's enough volatility there that it I'm sure somebody

01:02:34 ◼   ► basically said, Did you see this?

01:02:36 ◼   ► Like pointing at a spreadsheet, probably.

01:02:38 ◼   ► Did you see this?

01:02:40 ◼   ► If we if we went out to if we went out to six weeks,

01:02:42 ◼   ► like there was a really low price and we could have bought six weeks

01:02:45 ◼   ► worth of inventory and instead we could only buy four and we knew the

01:02:48 ◼   ► price was gonna go up.

01:02:49 ◼   ► And why didn't we buy six weeks worth of inventory here?

01:02:51 ◼   ► And they're like, you know, I I think even though I know there's a

01:02:56 ◼   ► Tim Cook dogma of like, you know, you don't want to keep a lot

01:02:58 ◼   ► of parts on hand and everything is sort of just in time, um, if

01:03:03 ◼   ► you are saving money by keeping some more parts on hand in the bins.

01:03:06 ◼   ► And they're gonna and they're increasing their use of OLED, right?

01:03:09 ◼   ► It's only going up for them.

01:03:10 ◼   ► Uh yeah.

01:03:11 ◼   ► Um interesting little vision into how complex these uh supply chains are, too.

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01:03:58 ◼   ► You control who has access to what, share login securely, and keep data protected

01:04:02 ◼   ► without adding extra work to anyone's day.

01:04:05 ◼   ► This is so important to me to be able to share passwords with team

01:04:09 ◼   ► members and family.

01:04:10 ◼   ► It's and having a password manager like keeper to help you do that is

01:04:14 ◼   ► really great because it takes the effort out.

01:04:16 ◼   ► You don't actually have to be sharing the passwords in other means, which is

01:04:20 ◼   ► like not what you want, because that kind of defeats the purpose.

01:04:22 ◼   ► So being able to have like teams inside of the keeper app and you're

01:04:26 ◼   ► able to share with individuals is super cool.

01:04:29 ◼   ► Uh it doesn't feel like extra security, right?

01:04:31 ◼   ► And that's the point.

01:04:32 ◼   ► Auto fill, face ID, fingerprint login.

01:04:35 ◼   ► It's fast enough that protection happens in the background, whether you're at your desk

01:04:39 ◼   ► or on your couch.

01:04:40 ◼   ► From individuals to families to growing companies, keeper's the password manager, millions turn to

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01:04:49 ◼   ► Uh, they make it super easy to generate passwords and save them and access

01:04:53 ◼   ► them from wherever you are, which is great.

01:04:54 ◼   ► I love that they have access and support for two factor codes built right

01:04:58 ◼   ► in, so you can have that extra layer of security and manage it easily

01:04:59 ◼   ► they also have autofill taken care of with their keeper field technology on every

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01:05:10 ◼   ► 60% off personal and family plans at keepersecurity.com slash upgrade this amazing offer is

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01:05:28 ◼   ► if you're running a team at work check out keeper's business plans just make

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01:05:34 ◼   ► that is keepersecurity.com slash upgrade our thanks to keeper security for their support of

01:05:40 ◼   ► this show and all of relay it's time for the B tails so when

01:05:48 ◼   ► I wrote the show document yesterday this started with we're now on beta five

01:05:54 ◼   ► and now I can say well we're now on beta six so wait in

01:05:57 ◼   ► a day yeah makes a difference big difference there was a three week wait

01:06:00 ◼   ► for beta five which is abnormal I've actually put a link in the show

01:06:05 ◼   ► show notes to think they um I think it's this Will Haynes I think

01:06:09 ◼   ► uh they uh are yeah I was correct in that they've tracked beta releases

01:06:15 ◼   ► and actually just iOS releases all the way back from history how long between

01:06:19 ◼   ► each release and a three week wait for a beta is very rare um

01:06:26 ◼   ► for the kind of the point for the the the point oh releases but

01:06:29 ◼   ► that was interesting, but then within a within less than a week, beta six

01:06:33 ◼   ► came along.

01:06:33 ◼   ► Um, in beta five, we got some refreshed app icons, British English now being

01:06:38 ◼   ► an option in the enhanced voice for Siri, which I'm very happy about.

01:06:42 ◼   ► Oh.

01:06:42 ◼   ► And selection, a selection of smaller tweaks.

01:06:44 ◼   ► There were also some bugs introduced that for me that were fixed in beta

01:06:48 ◼   ► six.

01:06:48 ◼   ► Like I had this really weird, it seemed like quite prevalent.

01:06:51 ◼   ► Uh a bug in messages where I I couldn't access the top row.

01:06:55 ◼   ► Yeah, can't scroll to the top row, everyone scroll down and then back up.

01:06:58 ◼   ► So they fixed that.

01:06:59 ◼   ► My my big on my iPad, Spotlight no longer showed results.

01:07:05 ◼   ► Oh.

01:07:06 ◼   ► It only it in the top, it would show you the top result because

01:07:09 ◼   ► that's auto-completed when you search.

01:07:12 ◼   ► Yes.

01:07:12 ◼   ► But the box below it, and I discovered just how much I rely on

01:07:17 ◼   ► Spotlight to launch apps.

01:07:19 ◼   ► Yes.

01:07:19 ◼   ► Because I I would type, I wanted to watch the Apple TV app, and

01:07:22 ◼   ► I typed TV and it said television time.

01:07:25 ◼   ► And I love television time, but it's not the Apple TV app.

01:07:28 ◼   ► Or what was the other one?

01:07:29 ◼   ► I I oh there was another one.

01:07:31 ◼   ► Home.

01:07:31 ◼   ► I typed in the home app, and it was like, oh, you want home

01:07:34 ◼   ► assistant, or and I'm like, no, I won the Apple Home app.

01:07:37 ◼   ► And uh and yeah, I could swipe over to App Library and search there,

01:07:40 ◼   ► and that's what I did for a week, like a sucker.

01:07:44 ◼   ► Yep.

01:07:44 ◼   ► But um I had something similar in one of the earlier bases where I

01:07:50 ◼   ► would pull down on my iPhone to search, and just some of the apps

01:07:55 ◼   ► were just invisible with no name.

01:07:56 ◼   ► Oh yeah, no icons or name.

01:07:58 ◼   ► So it's like I guess I'll just press this one.

01:08:00 ◼   ► Actually, I really like I really like that because it's like which of these

01:08:04 ◼   ► invisible icons is most likely to be the top, you know, is is the

01:08:07 ◼   ► thing I was searching for the top hit, or is there something else like

01:08:10 ◼   ► it?

01:08:10 ◼   ► And I did a lot, it was very like very Google, I'm feeling lucky.

01:08:13 ◼   ► Yes, where I'd be like, that's probably it, and tap it.

01:08:17 ◼   ► And it usually was.

01:08:18 ◼   ► Uh, but yeah, it all all the icons seem to be there.

01:08:21 ◼   ► And yeah, so I went from some icons are invisible to all icons are

01:08:25 ◼   ► invisible.

01:08:27 ◼   ► It's like, okay, all right.

01:08:28 ◼   ► Well, I I got to use app library search, which I I I only

01:08:29 ◼   ► have one page of apps on my iPad.

01:08:33 ◼   ► So the next so it was swipe over and search instead of uh pull

01:08:37 ◼   ► down and search.

01:08:38 ◼   ► So it wasn't that big a deal.

01:08:40 ◼   ► I actually filed, yeah, last week was rough.

01:08:42 ◼   ► I I filed three different feedbacks last week about bugs that I found.

01:08:46 ◼   ► Um the the a bug that I used to get in 26 and it's

01:08:50 ◼   ► back, or it was back in the last beta.

01:08:52 ◼   ► I don't know if it's in this one, where the iPad software keyboard.

01:08:55 ◼   ► Sometimes if you type on a letter that has a bunch of um, you

01:09:00 ◼   ► know, diacriticals accents underneath it, it would stick like and so I would be

01:09:06 ◼   ► typing and and and and I would keep typing letters, but that letter, none

01:09:10 ◼   ► of the other letters would be typed.

01:09:12 ◼   ► Yeah, because it was stuck, and then it would sit there doing nothing, and

01:09:17 ◼   ► then like a second later, the little diacritical thing would come up, be selected,

01:09:22 ◼   ► and go down again, and I'd get a weird accented character.

01:09:25 ◼   ► Yep.

01:09:25 ◼   ► And it's like, what are you doing?

01:09:27 ◼   ► It's very funny for a software keyboard to stick.

01:09:30 ◼   ► Right?

01:09:30 ◼   ► Yeah, it feels like something any hardware keyboard should do.

01:09:33 ◼   ► So and that and like literally the only way to get out of that

01:09:37 ◼   ► is to restart and because otherwise it's just sort of, oh, it started to

01:09:40 ◼   ► stick, now we're out of here.

01:09:41 ◼   ► It's the equivalent of blowing canned air into a physical keyboard.

01:09:45 ◼   ► So uh that we'll see if that bug is gone.

01:09:47 ◼   ► But there were definitely several bugs that I filed last week uh in five.

01:09:51 ◼   ► But um, but yeah, so um I guess Mike.

01:09:55 ◼   ► Yep, we gotta get to it.

01:09:57 ◼   ► Yeah, all right, so page a six bug fixes animation tweaks, new icons on

01:10:00 ◼   ► wallpapers with Mac OS, some of the icons matching the icons that they uh

01:10:04 ◼   ► brought to iOS.

01:10:05 ◼   ► One of the biggest ones is preview.

01:10:06 ◼   ► Preview has a really nice new icon.

01:10:08 ◼   ► Yeah, and out of the colour.

01:10:09 ◼   ► Preview a an F tier icon by per upgrade standards, I believe.

01:10:14 ◼   ► Much higher now.

01:10:14 ◼   ► In our in our tier list.

01:10:18 ◼   ► The classic shot glass icon that previously was there has been replaced.

01:10:23 ◼   ► And we now have.

01:10:25 ◼   ► Out of nowhere.

01:10:28 ◼   ► Redesigned spotlight window control on Mac OS.

01:10:32 ◼   ► So your little traffic lights at the top of your windows, they have now

01:10:36 ◼   ► been liquid-glassed.

01:10:37 ◼   ► Why do you call that spotlight?

01:10:38 ◼   ► That's not spotlight.

01:10:39 ◼   ► Did I say oh, I meant stop light.

01:10:42 ◼   ► Stop light.

01:10:43 ◼   ► Stop light, not spotlight.

01:10:44 ◼   ► You see how close?

01:10:45 ◼   ► Spotlight is totally different.

01:10:47 ◼   ► It doesn't even have a light light.

01:10:48 ◼   ► It's a different kind of light.

01:10:49 ◼   ► But stop lights, red amber green.

01:10:52 ◼   ► Yes.

01:10:52 ◼   ► That's what I meant.

01:10:54 ◼   ► Good.

01:10:55 ◼   ► So I'll put a link in the show notes to Stephen Hackett's article.

01:10:58 ◼   ► Because Steven also has all of the historical uh uh looks of this.

01:11:03 ◼   ► What do you think?

01:11:04 ◼   ► Is this worthy of a drama?

01:11:06 ◼   ► Are we in controversy town or not?

01:11:08 ◼   ► I don't I don't know why there's any drama here.

01:11:10 ◼   ► Um I mean there's always drama.

01:11:11 ◼   ► If I touch anything on the Mac Jason, people are gonna get mad.

01:11:14 ◼   ► All right.

01:11:15 ◼   ► It I think it I think they look nice.

01:11:17 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:11:18 ◼   ► I think they're um I do have a take.

01:11:21 ◼   ► Here's my take.

01:11:22 ◼   ► There you go.

01:11:23 ◼   ► I think the deactivated state is not right.

01:11:26 ◼   ► Okay.

01:11:26 ◼   ► The deactivated state in some windows, it almost fades to oblivion.

01:11:34 ◼   ► I don't like how they look.

01:11:35 ◼   ► I I I wish there was, I think the deactivated state I would like

01:11:38 ◼   ► to be a little different.

01:11:39 ◼   ► I don't know quite what.

01:11:40 ◼   ► But like my Slack window, the background there is gray, and so it's like

01:11:44 ◼   ► gray on gray, and they're like little deformations in the window.

01:11:48 ◼   ► On my browser window, um, that's with a white background, they're they're okay, but

01:11:54 ◼   ► like I I I wonder if the deactivated state could be a little bit

01:11:57 ◼   ► better.

01:11:57 ◼   ► Um, maybe even a little darker um and maybe even with a little, I

01:12:03 ◼   ► don't know.

01:11:59 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:12:04 ◼   ► But I like it because it is more aqua-y, for those who know the

01:12:08 ◼   ► old days, and more liquid glassy, but you know, in a good way.

01:12:12 ◼   ► I think it I think they look nice.

01:12:14 ◼   ► We're we are exiting the era of flat design.

01:12:16 ◼   ► I think uh I think they look nice.

01:12:18 ◼   ► Um in a post on Mastodon, Jeff Nado, I I would assume works in

01:12:24 ◼   ► design uh Apple because of the way they were talking about it.

01:12:29 ◼   ► Shows us off with an with an animation that doesn't exist currently, where like

01:12:33 ◼   ► if you press and hold and pull them, they do a little bit of

01:12:35 ◼   ► a of a jiggle.

01:12:36 ◼   ► I hope they they ship that.

01:12:38 ◼   ► That would be fun.

01:12:39 ◼   ► Um overall, I'm a fan.

01:12:44 ◼   ► I think I think this is lovely.

01:12:45 ◼   ► I think they look really fun, and I think it makes this is like

01:12:50 ◼   ► a perfect part of Mac OS to give the liquid liquid glass treatment to,

01:12:54 ◼   ► in my in my opinion.

01:12:56 ◼   ► Well, as I think um, as Gruber said, like every change that they seem

01:13:01 ◼   ► to have made in Golden Gate has been um for the best progress.

01:13:05 ◼   ► Yeah, and one way you could do that.

01:13:07 ◼   ► We talk about remember the tough compare.

01:13:09 ◼   ► Um, you know, Tahoe is an easy compare.

01:13:11 ◼   ► Yep.

01:13:12 ◼   ► Right?

01:13:12 ◼   ► They it's like, well, you know, if we want an OS version that everybody

01:13:15 ◼   ► praises every d design decision we make, why don't we ship a version where

01:13:19 ◼   ► everybody hates the design decisions we made?

01:13:21 ◼   ► Because that lowers the bar so low that we can now fix it and

01:13:25 ◼   ► ever and get praise for fixing our own disastrous decisions.

01:13:29 ◼   ► But the here's where we are.

01:13:30 ◼   ► That's where we are.

01:13:33 ◼   ► So we're about a month away now, I think, from the release of the

01:13:37 ◼   ► 27 um versions.

01:13:41 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:13:42 ◼   ► How are we feeling?

01:13:43 ◼   ► How are you feeling about them all?

01:13:45 ◼   ► I mean, less than a month away, probably.

01:13:47 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:13:48 ◼   ► Um, pretty good.

01:13:50 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:13:50 ◼   ► I think they're in pretty good shape.

01:13:53 ◼   ► I'm yes, I'm much more concerned about the work I have to do in

01:13:57 ◼   ► the next month than I am in What are you doing?

01:14:02 ◼   ► You you're reviewing Mac OS, I assume.

01:14:04 ◼   ► Yeah, Mac OS review, probably an iPad OS review, and I gotta finish my

01:14:07 ◼   ► uh update to my Photos book.

01:14:09 ◼   ► Plus, we got a lot of design in California.

01:14:11 ◼   ► Have you heard of this new podcast that we're doing?

01:14:12 ◼   ► Yeah, design in California.

01:14:14 ◼   ► Oh, and by the way, all new iPhones.

01:14:17 ◼   ► The iPhone.

01:14:18 ◼   ► Yeah, I mean, there's there's a lot.

01:14:19 ◼   ► Actually, one of the things that I I like is that the relay fundraising

01:14:24 ◼   ► uh our live podcast event is not until the end of the process.

01:14:28 ◼   ► Yeah, it's gonna be in a it used to be that like four or

01:14:30 ◼   ► five days of my busiest time of the year was blown out by the

01:14:34 ◼   ► podcast a thon, and now that's gonna happen later in the month, and that

01:14:37 ◼   ► is very, very good for me.

01:14:39 ◼   ► That decision has not been taken uh without that exact thing in mind.

01:14:44 ◼   ► It's it's it's gonna be good for all of us.

01:14:46 ◼   ► But um, but yeah, there's a lot going on.

01:14:47 ◼   ► I think the beta's are good.

01:14:48 ◼   ► I mean, I've been using them since the beginning, and I think they're solid.

01:14:51 ◼   ► I I think the Golden Gate has always all along been an improvement over

01:14:54 ◼   ► everybody who's on Tahoe or not on Tahoe, because you know, if you haven't

01:14:58 ◼   ► used Tahoe, you missed all the great features in Tahoe that they added, and

01:15:02 ◼   ► now they're here.

01:15:03 ◼   ► And they they hooked like one of my favorite Tahoe features is they added

01:15:06 ◼   ► a bunch of automation stuff that then broke.

01:15:09 ◼   ► Um, but it's back.

01:15:10 ◼   ► It all it works now.

01:15:12 ◼   ► They rehooked, they plugged that back in, whatever they did.

01:15:15 ◼   ► Um, yeah, and the iOS has been solid and iPad OS has been solid.

01:15:18 ◼   ► I've been pretty, I've been pretty happy.

01:15:20 ◼   ► I think it's a good solid set of updates.

01:15:22 ◼   ► That's my uh that's my short review.

01:15:24 ◼   ► And so I'm I, you know, I'm looking forward to it.

01:15:27 ◼   ► And I think their trajectory to go back to that grouber point, I think

01:15:29 ◼   ► that it's positive.

01:15:32 ◼   ► I think that they are making good decisions, and I think they are not

01:15:36 ◼   ► afraid to keep in adding incremental improvements over time, and I hope we see

01:15:40 ◼   ► that all fall and and next winter and spring, too, is just kind of

01:15:45 ◼   ► keep making this stuff nicer as we go.

01:15:49 ◼   ► But I think it's pretty good.

01:15:51 ◼   ► I have two things for you today about the base.

01:15:53 ◼   ► So one, I vibe coded one of those Safari extension things that they have.

01:15:58 ◼   ► You know, you can do your describe an extension to route X links to

01:16:03 ◼   ► the X cancel service.

01:16:05 ◼   ► Oh, that's nice.

01:16:06 ◼   ► I like that.

01:16:07 ◼   ► I have an app that does that that I use because I I subscribe

01:16:12 ◼   ► to a chain newspaper's local site for me that has a lot of links

01:16:16 ◼   ► that I get inbound from another paper in the chain, and I'm not logged

01:16:21 ◼   ► in to the other paper because I subscribe to paper A.

01:16:24 ◼   ► And so it takes all the Mercury news links and puts them at the

01:16:27 ◼   ► Marin independent journal instead because their URL structure is identical.

01:16:31 ◼   ► And uh so I love re so that that's that's uh I'll just mention

01:16:36 ◼   ► it since people uh like to know it.

01:16:38 ◼   ► That is an app called redirect web that is a safari extension that just

01:16:43 ◼   ► uses pattern matching redirects, so you can build that.

01:16:46 ◼   ► But you built your own.

01:16:47 ◼   ► Yeah, and when I did it, it said like, oh, you can go and

01:16:51 ◼   ► get this app that does it.

01:16:52 ◼   ► Like that it showed it issues.

01:16:53 ◼   ► Right, it does do that.

01:16:54 ◼   ► But I wanted to see um what the process was like, yeah, and it

01:16:59 ◼   ► was so easy.

01:17:00 ◼   ► So I I did it with um, so we use uh especially for incomparable,

01:17:04 ◼   ► I think call uh a site called Straw Pole, which is great.

01:17:07 ◼   ► You may have heard Merlin back in the day talked about Doodle a lot.

01:17:10 ◼   ► Doodle kind of got junked up with stuff and is headed in a was

01:17:13 ◼   ► headed in a direction that like I didn't want to go.

01:17:15 ◼   ► Straw poll is like a I think it's like one developer.

01:17:18 ◼   ► It's great.

01:17:18 ◼   ► And I sub I I pay for the subscription version, but it's cheap and

01:17:21 ◼   ► it's good.

01:17:22 ◼   ► Um however, Straw Pole has two modes.

01:17:26 ◼   ► It has like schedule meeting and it has like schedule um I I I

01:17:33 ◼   ► forget what the other one is, but um one of them is not what

01:17:38 ◼   ► I do, because I only ever schedule meeting where you pick a bunch of

01:17:42 ◼   ► times, not people, and you say, and then you hand out a link to

01:17:46 ◼   ► everybody and say, This is how we schedule incomparable.

01:17:49 ◼   ► How do you get a huge panel of people who may or may not

01:17:51 ◼   ► be interested in the subject and may or may not have any common times?

01:17:54 ◼   ► How do you schedule a podcast with them?

01:17:56 ◼   ► It's bad.

01:17:56 ◼   ► We used to do it in email, it was very bad.

01:17:59 ◼   ► Um a poll.

01:18:00 ◼   ► You feel the poll, and like if you're interested in the subject matter, uh

01:18:03 ◼   ► and the only availabilities that are on option are the ones that I'm available

01:18:07 ◼   ► for, those are the ones I put in there.

01:18:09 ◼   ► And then we find a common time with a common group of panelists.

01:18:11 ◼   ► If there's like 10 panelists who say yes, I do some producing and pick

01:18:16 ◼   ► the panelists, pick the panel I want.

01:18:19 ◼   ► Sometimes I don't get to pick.

01:18:20 ◼   ► There's only three people who will do it, and we're the panel.

01:18:23 ◼   ► Um they have these two different modes.

01:18:26 ◼   ► So I vibe coded a Safari extension that hides the tab that offers the

01:18:33 ◼   ► other mode, because I always click it and I'm like, no, not this one.

01:18:36 ◼   ► Uh-huh.

01:18:38 ◼   ► And if I and if there are other links to that option, it redirects

01:18:43 ◼   ► them.

01:18:44 ◼   ► So it does two things.

01:18:45 ◼   ► It hides that tab.

01:18:46 ◼   ► Yep.

01:18:46 ◼   ► And if I go to that URL, it just redirects it to the other

01:18:49 ◼   ► one because that's the one I want.

01:18:51 ◼   ► And it's so great.

01:18:51 ◼   ► Cause it's and I was like, this is what this is for, which is

01:18:55 ◼   ► I have a website that does not behave the way I want.

01:18:58 ◼   ► So I will make it behave that I want.

01:19:00 ◼   ► It's great.

01:19:01 ◼   ► I love it.

01:19:01 ◼   ► Really nice feature.

01:19:02 ◼   ► Very nice feature.

01:18:59 ◼   ► Yeah, and not tech.

01:19:04 ◼   ► I didn't have to say like find the CSS that does the web.

01:19:07 ◼   ► I I just said there's there's this item in the in the menu bar

01:19:11 ◼   ► on this site.

01:19:12 ◼   ► Hide it.

01:19:13 ◼   ► And it links to this URL.

01:19:16 ◼   ► Every time anything links to this URL, link it to this other URL.

01:19:19 ◼   ► And it was like, got it, Chief.

01:19:21 ◼   ► Done.

01:19:21 ◼   ► Amazing.

01:19:22 ◼   ► Uh and oh, I want there was a fix that they did uh in

01:19:25 ◼   ► one of the betas that I'm very happy about, and I think they've done

01:19:28 ◼   ► it in a clever way.

01:19:29 ◼   ► So I was frustrated that by combining Spotlight and Siri into that UI where

01:19:35 ◼   ► you pull down, that autocorrect was then turned off for requests you were making

01:19:40 ◼   ► from the home screen, which made it hard to ask Siri questions because you

01:19:44 ◼   ► make lots of mistakes.

01:19:46 ◼   ► But now after you've typed a few characters and it realizes that what you

01:19:52 ◼   ► want is to ask Siri, they just turn autocorrect on.

01:19:55 ◼   ► It's like you can pay attention as you're typing, and you'll see the first

01:19:59 ◼   ► few characters, there's no quick type suggestions at the top.

01:20:02 ◼   ► And then once it does that thing where it's like ask Siri, you know,

01:20:05 ◼   ► it says like it has that little like icon you can see that it's

01:20:08 ◼   ► going to do that, then autocorrect gets turned on and your auto-correct is done.

01:20:11 ◼   ► That was a very clever way of dealing with that problem.

01:20:14 ◼   ► Um but then I also wanted to share another excellent Siri AI interaction that

01:20:19 ◼   ► I had.

01:20:20 ◼   ► So for the designing California poster prints, we want to have some nice packaging

01:20:26 ◼   ► for people, like strong packaging to send them with.

01:20:29 ◼   ► And when Gray and I did a poster print a few years ago, we

01:20:32 ◼   ► did all the packaging at home and Adina did some research into finding like

01:20:37 ◼   ► a good strong envelope and like a little um like sh clear poly wallet

01:20:43 ◼   ► to put them in, like like mail a wallet thing, and then also like

01:20:44 ◼   ► a backing board into the envelope.

01:20:44 ◼   ► And so they they we wanted them to arrive safely.

01:20:51 ◼   ► And so I was like, right, I want us to have similar stuff that

01:20:55 ◼   ► when we do the signing, we can put them in these envelopes and then

01:20:57 ◼   ► we'll send them off to the fulfillment company and they will put them in

01:21:00 ◼   ► like a bag or whatever and send them, but then we'll feel good, you

01:21:03 ◼   ► know, we've done the best we can to protect them.

01:21:05 ◼   ► So I said to Adina, I was like, we need to start looking or

01:21:08 ◼   ► ordering some of that kind of stuff so it can be ready for when

01:21:11 ◼   ► we start signing them uh in September.

01:21:15 ◼   ► And she was like, okay, I I know we spoke about it somewhere.

01:21:19 ◼   ► And she said, Why don't you ask your friend to find it for me?

01:21:22 ◼   ► That's what she calls Siri AI.

01:21:24 ◼   ► She calls Siri A my friend.

01:21:26 ◼   ► And I thought to myself, this was in 2021.

01:21:28 ◼   ► There's no way it goes back that far.

01:21:30 ◼   ► Like I was just like, I just didn't think it would be able to

01:21:32 ◼   ► do it.

01:21:32 ◼   ► But I was like, you know what?

01:21:34 ◼   ► I'll try.

01:21:35 ◼   ► So I asked to look for a conversation between me and Adina in September

01:21:40 ◼   ► 2021 to find the you know, us having this conversation.

01:21:44 ◼   ► And it couldn't find anything.

01:21:46 ◼   ► So I broadened it to ask any time in 2021, and it found the

01:21:51 ◼   ► email because it wasn't in September.

01:21:53 ◼   ► The conversation actually happened in October.

01:21:55 ◼   ► Right.

01:21:56 ◼   ► So that was like mistake number one for me is I thought the only

01:21:59 ◼   ► way it's gonna work this out is if I try and be really refined.

01:22:02 ◼   ► But no, I just 2021 was enough.

01:22:05 ◼   ► It found the email that Adina was hoping to find.

01:22:08 ◼   ► She was sitting there on her phone trying to find this email searching in

01:22:11 ◼   ► the mail app, but it found it immediately.

01:22:13 ◼   ► And it had like she'd sent me a list as I could there's this

01:22:16 ◼   ► options and these options.

01:22:18 ◼   ► So there was two different routes.

01:22:20 ◼   ► And I didn't remember which one I chose.

01:22:22 ◼   ► So I said, Can you find an order email that indicates which of these

01:22:26 ◼   ► options I chose?

01:22:27 ◼   ► And it said, Yeah, here you go, from this company, from his packaging company.

01:22:29 ◼   ► Here's the options that you chose.

01:22:33 ◼   ► And then Adina remembered that she wanted to make an adjustment like to add

01:22:37 ◼   ► something into the package but couldn't remember the specifics.

01:22:40 ◼   ► So I asked and it said yes a week later I can see that

01:22:45 ◼   ► the two of you discussed having a thicker card divider being needed but I

01:22:49 ◼   ► can't but it could not find what we chose.

01:22:51 ◼   ► So for whatever reason maybe I didn't order it or Adina didn't send me

01:22:55 ◼   ► the email.

01:22:56 ◼   ► But I was you had that conversation in real life instead.

01:22:59 ◼   ► Yes.

01:22:59 ◼   ► I guess because it but it was funny it was like it showed the

01:23:02 ◼   ► text where it said you said hmm we probably need to get the divider

01:23:06 ◼   ► I was like yeah I did that's right so it reminded me that you

01:23:11 ◼   ► kinda one you got to give this system a shot because I thought it

01:23:14 ◼   ► wouldn't be able to do this and it absolutely did it.

01:23:16 ◼   ► And also to be prescriptive but not too prescriptive and I kind of feel

01:23:21 ◼   ► like let the computer be your memory like that's what it's supposed to do.

01:23:24 ◼   ► So exactly I was very impressed by this exp by this because it it

01:23:28 ◼   ► it solved something like I don't know how long it would have taken for

01:23:32 ◼   ► the two of us to try and find that by searching for different emails

01:23:36 ◼   ► in the email app and it was like immediate you know I asked like

01:23:39 ◼   ► two questions and it gave me the answer.

01:23:41 ◼   ► So very impressive.

01:23:43 ◼   ► Nice.

01:23:44 ◼   ► Nice.

01:23:44 ◼   ► Yeah yeah I've been I've been pretty impressed with what it does.

01:23:48 ◼   ► Again not perfect but um pretty good pretty good.

01:23:52 ◼   ► It's kind of funny to see Apple's promises from two years ago actually kind

01:23:55 ◼   ► of happen.

01:23:56 ◼   ► But yeah.

01:23:57 ◼   ► But it's like you know I've been saying this and I keep saying this

01:23:59 ◼   ► and I'm going to keep saying it, you've got to leave your existing feelings

01:24:03 ◼   ► about Siri at the door.

01:24:05 ◼   ► Yes.

01:24:06 ◼   ► You have to just start again and just keep asking it questions.

01:24:10 ◼   ► Um, and and I think you'll start getting more answers.

01:24:13 ◼   ► But you've you've got to like even I was reminded again like I thought

01:24:14 ◼   ► this would be too complex for the system, but I was wrong.

01:24:20 ◼   ► Like something that happened five years ago, it found it immediately.

01:24:24 ◼   ► So it has it has what it needs.

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01:26:19 ◼   ► It is time for some ask upgrade questions.

01:26:24 ◼   ► Dennis asks, Jason, you mentioned you use the television time app to keep track

01:26:29 ◼   ► of the shows that you're watching.

01:26:31 ◼   ► Do you share any of these lists with your wife on her phone?

01:26:34 ◼   ► If you do, how do you sync the data between the two of you?

01:26:36 ◼   ► If you don't, how is that?

01:26:38 ◼   ► Like, do you have any kind of system where you're talking about what's what

01:26:42 ◼   ► you're watching?

01:26:43 ◼   ► We don't.

01:26:44 ◼   ► I am the keeper of I am the keeper of this data that she

01:26:46 ◼   ► would probably not care to keep.

01:26:47 ◼   ► We did have a moment last night where she's she said, you know, there's

01:26:50 ◼   ► a show that I was wondering if we finished watching, and I don't think

01:26:53 ◼   ► we did, but maybe we did.

01:26:54 ◼   ► Um and she said, Did we watch all of season two of the four

01:26:57 ◼   ► seasons on Netflix?

01:26:58 ◼   ► And I said, I said no.

01:26:59 ◼   ► Well, she didn't say on Netflix because she doesn't know where anything is.

01:27:02 ◼   ► But um, and I said, No, it's on there.

01:27:04 ◼   ► I just I haven't gone back to it, but it's on and I was

01:27:06 ◼   ► like, I know it's I didn't need to look.

01:27:08 ◼   ► I'm like, no, we're we're like halfway through that.

01:27:09 ◼   ► We'll we'll get back to that.

01:27:10 ◼   ► There's been a there's a a big list, but we don't share it.

01:27:13 ◼   ► Um we could.

01:27:15 ◼   ► She's expressed no interest.

01:27:17 ◼   ► I think she's not interested in logging our TV viewing, but and I think

01:27:21 ◼   ► I think there's a good case of she is happy that her husband is

01:27:24 ◼   ► the one who's gonna be the repository.

01:27:27 ◼   ► You would take advantage of the fact that he knows what TV to watch.

01:27:31 ◼   ► You know?

01:27:31 ◼   ► Yeah, I mean, I take advantage of the fact that you know what TV

01:27:34 ◼   ► to watch.

01:27:35 ◼   ► Her opinion matters, but she's not gonna log stuff.

01:27:38 ◼   ► She's not gonna log stuff.

01:27:39 ◼   ► She doesn't care.

01:27:40 ◼   ► That's my job to do.

01:27:41 ◼   ► I have taken that on.

01:27:42 ◼   ► So after, yes, after 31 plus years of marriage, we are um she we

01:27:44 ◼   ► have with that role has been assigned to me.

01:27:50 ◼   ► And I don't by me with her approval, really, basically, because who else is

01:27:55 ◼   ► gonna do it?

01:27:55 ◼   ► I'm gonna do it.

01:27:56 ◼   ► Um, but I'm still doing it, which is good.

01:27:59 ◼   ► Ryan writes in and says, you know what product would take zero gigabytes of

01:28:03 ◼   ► RAM to redesign?

01:28:05 ◼   ► The Apple Magic mouse.

01:28:06 ◼   ► What's even the point of having a nerdy hardware guy as CEO if we

01:28:10 ◼   ► don't get an updated design within his first 100 days?

01:28:13 ◼   ► If you can make a foldable iPhone, surely you ought to be able to

01:28:18 ◼   ► move the charging port on the mouse, right?

01:28:23 ◼   ► Okay.

01:28:24 ◼   ► This one goes out to all you mouse lovers out there.

01:28:28 ◼   ► The Mac is a small percentage of Apple's business.

01:28:34 ◼   ► Macs with mice attached is a small percentage of Apple's Mac business.

01:28:39 ◼   ► Yeah, but just make one charge of with MacSafe.

01:28:42 ◼   ► You know, come on now.

01:28:44 ◼   ► I'm sure they'll get around to it.

01:28:46 ◼   ► Well, this is it, right?

01:28:47 ◼   ► Who's gonna get around to it?

01:28:49 ◼   ► The safe.

01:28:50 ◼   ► John Turnis is John Turnus is your boy, he's gonna do it.

01:28:52 ◼   ► He's not gonna do it in the first hundred days, probably.

01:28:55 ◼   ► But like, sure, sure.

01:28:57 ◼   ► I'm surprised it's taken this long just because Apple got so much crap for

01:29:00 ◼   ► having the charging port on the bottom that I I I'm surprised they didn't

01:29:05 ◼   ► just do it in embarrassment, but they didn't.

01:29:08 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:29:09 ◼   ► But yeah, I mean, it'll it'll happen.

01:29:11 ◼   ► But it's this it's low priority, it's just low priority.

01:29:14 ◼   ► I honestly I think it's incredible that they actually still offer a mouse.

01:29:19 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:29:20 ◼   ► Why it surprises me they're not like max combo track pads.

01:29:23 ◼   ► If you want a mouse, look at our friend's logite tech.

01:29:27 ◼   ► You know, many mice are available.

01:29:28 ◼   ► Well, I honestly, I think, oh, let's start a rumor, right?

01:29:29 ◼   ► Maybe they're just gonna not sell mice anymore.

01:29:35 ◼   ► I think that is more like it's a third-party opportunity.

01:29:38 ◼   ► Yeah, I mean, lots of people make the best mice.

01:29:41 ◼   ► So and that there are no good trackpads out there because as we discovered

01:29:46 ◼   ► when um I was trying a bunch of third-party iPad trackpads before there was

01:29:50 ◼   ► that like Apple has spent so much time optimizing their trackpad firmware, like it's

01:29:54 ◼   ► so much better than any other trackpad out there.

01:29:57 ◼   ► That and it's integral to their laptops as well.

01:30:01 ◼   ► So they're not gonna stop making the magic trackpad.

01:30:03 ◼   ► But the magic mouse, I mean, it's the lowest of priorities for them, obviously.

01:30:08 ◼   ► They could just stop, but they probably won't.

01:30:12 ◼   ► They'll probably keep it around.

01:30:13 ◼   ► It's just gonna be the lowest priority ever.

01:30:16 ◼   ► Logan says, I have a time tracking question.

01:30:19 ◼   ► It's been a while since I heard Mike talk about time tracking, so I

01:30:22 ◼   ► thought he might enjoy the opportunity.

01:30:24 ◼   ► Logan, you know who well.

01:30:25 ◼   ► Uh I work as a dispatcher and often my job rotates between five or

01:30:29 ◼   ► six different tasks in the span of a few minutes.

01:30:32 ◼   ► All things are intermingled and happening simultaneously.

01:30:35 ◼   ► Would time tracking and having work just be a solid at-work block, still be

01:30:39 ◼   ► beneficial.

01:30:40 ◼   ► I have high hopes it'll help me motivate me in my after-work hobbies and

01:30:44 ◼   ► aspirations.

01:30:45 ◼   ► So I think it would be difficult to track your work granally, right?

01:30:50 ◼   ► As Logan mentioned, because you're moving around a bunch.

01:30:52 ◼   ► So for me, I'll just tell you how I do this.

01:30:55 ◼   ► I time track whatever the dominant activity is.

01:30:58 ◼   ► Because, you know, as I'm working, things are popping in.

01:31:00 ◼   ► I don't switch timers if someone sends me a Slack message or whatever and

01:31:03 ◼   ► I just answer to it and go back.

01:31:05 ◼   ► But I have projects, all of my dominant work is projects.

01:31:09 ◼   ► Like this would be podcast editing, uh, cross-forward marketing, um, podcast recording.

01:31:14 ◼   ► I have these as projects.

01:31:16 ◼   ► And then I use tags for specific shows.

01:31:20 ◼   ► So if I'm doing anything podcast related, I have a tag which is all

01:31:23 ◼   ► my podcast names, and I link them together.

01:31:26 ◼   ► I would say that you know maybe you could try and break it up

01:31:29 ◼   ► into a couple of projects, possibly.

01:31:31 ◼   ► If but if you're pulled around a lot, maybe you can find a dominant

01:31:35 ◼   ► activity.

01:31:35 ◼   ► But you mention one of the reasons you want to do this is for

01:31:40 ◼   ► your hobbies.

01:31:41 ◼   ► Well, what you could do is you could just track your work time as

01:31:45 ◼   ► at work, then track your hobbies.

01:31:48 ◼   ► So if you were to have something, let's say you want to play Dungeons

01:31:51 ◼   ► and Dragons or you want to do puzzles or whatever.

01:31:55 ◼   ► This can time tracking can help motivate you in other things you want to

01:32:00 ◼   ► do in your life that's not just work, because you have this thing and

01:32:04 ◼   ► you can be like, all right, I'm gonna press start on the timer, and

01:32:06 ◼   ► now I'm doing it.

01:32:07 ◼   ► It helps me mode shift a lot.

01:32:09 ◼   ► It's like, all right, I'm in this mode now, like I'm doing this thing.

01:32:12 ◼   ► You're sitting down, you hit the timer, you focus on what you want to

01:32:15 ◼   ► do, and then the data that comes from time tracking is the is the

01:32:19 ◼   ► real benefit.

01:32:20 ◼   ► So I have found in the many years that I have tracked my time,

01:32:25 ◼   ► it is so much more revealing to what you're actually doing than what you

01:32:29 ◼   ► think you're doing, because we are very bad at estimating time, especially when we

01:32:35 ◼   ► have emotions that go along with the activities.

01:32:37 ◼   ► If you're doing something you don't like doing, you always feel like you spend

01:32:42 ◼   ► more time on it than you actually do.

01:32:44 ◼   ► So I love that I can then get reports about what I'm doing with

01:32:47 ◼   ► my time, and it helps me make important decisions when I need to.

01:32:51 ◼   ► Like I if you want to see what some of this looks like and

01:32:53 ◼   ► kind of how I think about it, I did just write about like what

01:32:57 ◼   ► it's been in like in the last six weeks since we launched since the

01:32:59 ◼   ► design in California Kickstarter ended, kind of how I spent some of my time.

01:32:59 ◼   ► And I was able to go in and get an answer.

01:33:07 ◼   ► And I was like, oh, okay, that is a significant portion of my podcast

01:33:11 ◼   ► related time is on this podcast right now, which is what I expected, but

01:33:14 ◼   ► it was interesting to see how much that percentage was.

01:33:18 ◼   ► So I really value that because it can then help you make further decisions.

01:33:22 ◼   ► So Logan, give it a go.

01:33:23 ◼   ► I recommend the app timery.

01:33:25 ◼   ► Um that is what I use.

01:33:27 ◼   ► Timery requires a subscription to a service called Toggle, but you can use their

01:33:31 ◼   ► free subscription.

01:33:32 ◼   ► Um go and check that out.

01:33:35 ◼   ► It's super good.

01:33:36 ◼   ► I'm a big fan.

01:33:37 ◼   ► So go check it out.

01:33:38 ◼   ► Time tracking everybody.

01:33:40 ◼   ► So it's an amazing thing.

01:33:42 ◼   ► I I appreciated your enthusiast post, and I had the opposite because I'm on

01:33:47 ◼   ► the inside when you were like, look at what it is.

01:33:50 ◼   ► Enormous percentage of my time on podcasts has been designed in California.

01:33:54 ◼   ► And my response was so little.

01:33:58 ◼   ► Well, as I so I'll say to I'll say a few things to you

01:34:00 ◼   ► now.

01:34:01 ◼   ► So one, I think it should indicate to you how much time I spent

01:34:03 ◼   ► on upgrade.

01:34:04 ◼   ► Because the other is that is 36% of time that didn't exist.

01:34:10 ◼   ► Ah you've created new time.

01:34:13 ◼   ► So this is added time.

01:34:15 ◼   ► The 36% of my time that was going that is going on design in

01:34:18 ◼   ► California for podcast work.

01:34:20 ◼   ► I haven't stopped doing anything.

01:34:22 ◼   ► Right.

01:34:23 ◼   ► Which I'm sure you can.

01:34:24 ◼   ► So like it's actually I was surprised that it uh I have spent as

01:34:28 ◼   ► much time on design in California in the last six weeks that I have

01:34:33 ◼   ► on upgrade and connected combined.

01:34:35 ◼   ► I and again, I say I am not surprised.

01:34:39 ◼   ► Not even a little.

01:34:43 ◼   ► It is it is uh a lot of work that only is a lot

01:34:44 ◼   ► of work, but a lot of it only needs to be done once, which

01:34:50 ◼   ► I'm very happy about.

01:34:51 ◼   ► Um and I'm I'm keen to see what happens uh to my time tracking

01:34:56 ◼   ► once designed in California is actually just like an ongoing project as opposed to

01:35:00 ◼   ► a project in a law setup.

01:35:02 ◼   ► Steve says, I want to upgrade to a new Pro Phone this year, but