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Upgrade

622: It's Doing It!

 

00:00:00   From Relay, this is Upgrade, episode 622. This show is brought to you by Sentry, Decagon,

00:00:17   and ExpressVPN. My name is Mike Hurley, and I'm joined by Jason Snell. Hi, Jason.

00:00:22   Hello, from the great state of Oregon.

00:00:25   Hello. So you're still traveling. I'm back in Megastudio.

00:00:30   Something I found very funny, so we were very kindly hosted by Apple last week.

00:00:34   Multiple people said that they didn't know it was me starting the show on Monday,

00:00:39   which I found fascinating.

00:00:40   My throat was a little sore because we'd been kind of out the night before,

00:00:45   like a restaurant bar mixer thing, and I guess different...

00:00:49   Yeah, it was very loud.

00:00:50   Yeah, it was very loud.

00:00:51   As you noted, we had weird posture in the chairs

00:00:54   because we're not sitting up straight in our usual office chairs.

00:00:57   They're more like lounge chairs, and I wasn't using my regular microphone.

00:01:00   And I don't like how I sound on any mic other than the one that I use,

00:01:04   but it's definitely me today.

00:01:05   It's definitely me.

00:01:06   So thank you to Apple.

00:01:08   Yeah, it's you, official.

00:01:08   Mike OG.

00:01:09   It's super helpful to actually have that studio to record in

00:01:13   rather than trying to work out whatever on earth we would do.

00:01:16   Yeah, for sure.

00:01:17   We got out hours and hours earlier than we would have.

00:01:20   Yeah, so we're very appreciative of that.

00:01:22   But I have a Snow Talk question for you, Jason,

00:01:24   and it comes from Joey, and Joey wants to know,

00:01:27   are you watching the World Cup?

00:01:29   I am.

00:01:30   I am watching the World Cup as much as I can

00:01:33   because, you know, we've been busy.

00:01:34   This has been a busy time for all of us.

00:01:36   But yes, I watched the World Cup.

00:01:41   I actually didn't watch the U.S. match

00:01:43   because I was in a car driving to Oregon.

00:01:45   But I watched most of,

00:01:48   there were four matches, I think, on Saturday,

00:01:51   and I watched most of those.

00:01:53   But, you know, we're up here for my son's graduation from college,

00:01:57   so there's a lot of other stuff going on

00:01:59   that is going to preclude it.

00:02:00   But yes, I try to catch World Cup action when I can.

00:02:03   That's my answer.

00:02:03   And I can report this.

00:02:05   I don't know.

00:02:05   It's not exclusively,

00:02:06   but I can report this here that

00:02:07   when we speak again,

00:02:10   I will have been to a World Cup match

00:02:12   because I'm going on Friday.

00:02:14   Which one is that?

00:02:15   Which match?

00:02:16   It's a real showdown with two teams that are hungry

00:02:19   because they lost their first group stage matches.

00:02:21   It's Turkey versus Paraguay,

00:02:23   the classic matchup.

00:02:25   Oh, those are two countries that don't like each other.

00:02:27   I think they call it a long rivalry.

00:02:30   That one is a bit of a derby there.

00:02:32   Oh, man.

00:02:33   There's two storied teams.

00:02:35   The fighting Turks against the fighting Guays.

00:02:37   Yes, the Guays.

00:02:38   Yep.

00:02:38   That's cool, though, to go to a World Cup match.

00:02:42   Where is it?

00:02:42   Yeah, absolutely.

00:02:43   Where are you seeing it?

00:02:43   In San Francisco.

00:02:44   I don't have to go far from home.

00:02:46   I can just go down and see from presumably the last row,

00:02:52   the upper deck.

00:02:53   I think it's the cheapest, worst seats that still cost a fortune.

00:02:56   But if there's empty seats, I'll move down.

00:02:59   It's interesting.

00:03:02   I noted this to a D&E yesterday that I know that the World Cup is happening,

00:03:07   but I don't feel it the way that I normally do.

00:03:12   I feel like usually I feel the effect of the World Cup happening in and around my life

00:03:21   more than I'm feeling it right now.

00:03:23   She did note to me that maybe it's just like the NBA is sucking up all the discourse on the internet,

00:03:28   but that's now over, so maybe the World Cup can take over.

00:03:31   Yeah, it's just getting started.

00:03:33   I mean, the World Cup is even longer than the Olympics.

00:03:36   It is a long, long run of a month.

00:03:38   Unfortunately for me.

00:03:40   Because they make it bigger and bigger every time.

00:03:42   So we've got, there's time for it to gain momentum.

00:03:45   Because as we know, Jason, the world keeps getting bigger.

00:03:47   So physically larger, more countries.

00:03:50   Like a balloon, it just keeps getting expanded in all sorts of ways.

00:03:53   So you've got to increase the time of the World Cup.

00:03:54   I think this time, logistically, it's maybe a bit more complicated than your typical World Cup, right?

00:03:59   Because you're moving all over that continent of yours.

00:04:03   Also, we have to say, because, you know, we said it's a busy time.

00:04:09   What time is it?

00:04:11   What time of year is it now, Mike?

00:04:13   I think you'll find, Jason, it is the Summer of Fun!

00:04:17   Welcome to the Summer of Fun, everybody.

00:04:20   We did it.

00:04:20   We've officially inaugurated the Summer of Fun.

00:04:23   Thank you to Joey for that snow talk question.

00:04:25   It is the Summer of Fun.

00:04:26   What does the Summer of Fun mean?

00:04:27   It means that it's time for us to have fun in the summer.

00:04:30   That's what it means.

00:04:32   And here we are, we're doing it.

00:04:34   So this goes back, I don't know, a long, long time in the show now,

00:04:38   where essentially during the summer months, we realized there was no news.

00:04:42   This has changed over time, and there's just much more news in the summer now than there used to be.

00:04:47   Things are still happening.

00:04:48   So often in the summer, we have to come up with topics and special kind of evergreen one-off episodes

00:04:55   to kind of help us continue to produce the show every week and for it to be the best that it can be.

00:05:01   So we crown this entire period Summer of Fun.

00:05:04   Summer of Fun runs from the week after WWDC to the week before the iPhone draft, which seems, when you say it like that,

00:05:12   like a really long way away, it's not a long way away.

00:05:15   No, it happens real fast.

00:05:16   I would say it's not just the lack of news, because there is news, and we'll cover it.

00:05:21   But also, the other thing that happens is scheduling issues in the summer because people are traveling.

00:05:28   So like you and I had a, while I was driving up here, actually, we had a back and forth about some travel that you're doing.

00:05:35   I was trying to work that one out.

00:05:36   Yeah.

00:05:36   It was, yeah.

00:05:37   We had to, like, it's like we would swap this over here and then do this here and pre-record this.

00:05:42   But one of the things that happens for us to do those episodes, sometimes there are guests,

00:05:46   and that can be fun, depending on who the guest is.

00:05:49   But also, it is a time where we sometimes do a pre-record, where we'll record maybe a week early,

00:05:57   at which point, you know, there's no way to do it to be newsy.

00:06:02   And it has to be something fun and evergreen so that we can hang on to it and run it late because one of us is traveling.

00:06:10   Like even today, we're pre-recording a day early.

00:06:12   A day early, that's true.

00:06:14   That's true.

00:06:14   Because I'm going back, there was no other time to record it because I was traveling up here and then I'm traveling back.

00:06:21   And so it pretty much had to be today because my son's graduation is literally at the time of upgrade.

00:06:25   So congratulations to Julian on graduation.

00:06:29   So that's why we're recording a day early today.

00:06:33   We have some follow-up, Jason Snell.

00:06:36   Joseph wrote in and said, Jason mentioned on Six Colors that he took notes in a traditional reporter's notebook at WWDC this year.

00:06:44   I'm curious why he chose that over a laptop, how well it worked in practice, and whether he'd do it again.

00:06:49   Given his famously fast typing speed, I was surprised.

00:06:52   Is he secretly a shorthand expert too?

00:06:55   I am not a shorthand expert.

00:06:57   I'm terrible at handwriting.

00:06:58   I don't know.

00:07:00   I thought I would try it.

00:07:06   I thought, so there's a thought process here, which is like sitting and typing in notes.

00:07:12   I feel like I can do it and I end up with a document that can be turned into what I referenced during the podcast we do about the event.

00:07:23   I can certainly type more things.

00:07:25   I'm not sure typing more things is helpful.

00:07:29   Whereas when I was doing it on pen and paper, I had to write fewer things, right?

00:07:36   I had to write fewer things because there were just – there's no way I was going to get more down on paper.

00:07:41   And so I had to kind of pick my spots and also do the thing where like something happens and you do a circle around it or you underline it or like put an arrow next to it and say, this is actually really interesting.

00:07:52   And I've done this throughout my career, but, you know, it has become more common to just sit there with a laptop.

00:07:58   And I just – I thought maybe this time I would try that out to not over note it and see if I could do the pen and notebook thing.

00:08:11   I, you know, again, it was more of an experiment than anything else, although I'm pretty happy with it.

00:08:18   It's different because I don't have that notes document that I can refer back to directly.

00:08:24   Instead, like I was writing my story about this, which I called emptying the notebook because I got to literally empty the notebook.

00:08:31   And, you know, I was writing it and I had to go get the notebook and bring it out because like iCloud doesn't sync the pages of the notebook.

00:08:38   I guess I could scan them or something.

00:08:39   But I just flipped through the notebook and did it that way.

00:08:42   And I think it worked fine.

00:08:43   I'm not, you know, I'm not ready to extol the virtues of one over the other.

00:08:48   They're different.

00:08:48   But I think it was a pretty good experiment.

00:08:50   I didn't mind it.

00:08:52   I'm sure I missed some stuff.

00:08:54   But I also kind of was forced to choose the stuff that I found was most interesting.

00:09:00   I peeped that you were using the Field Notes front page.

00:09:04   I think you were either using the original one or they ended up producing it as a regular product.

00:09:12   But you were using their one, which is a traditional reporter's notebook.

00:09:15   It's a very long reporter's notebook.

00:09:18   Yeah, with a little fold on the cover and all of that.

00:09:21   I was.

00:09:22   I like that.

00:09:23   I have a bunch of Field Notes.

00:09:25   And you were using your own brand, which I also have, which I thought about.

00:09:29   I thought about.

00:09:30   But I've got these reporter's notebooks.

00:09:31   I bought a three-pack of them.

00:09:33   I figure I should use them because that's what they're for.

00:09:36   You want to promote your notepad?

00:09:38   Yeah, I was using the sidekick pocket.

00:09:41   So basically, I brought my notebook and I also brought my laptop.

00:09:46   And I wasn't going to take laptop notes.

00:09:50   Now, that's what I do when I am at home watching any Apple event.

00:09:56   I will take notes in Apple Notes.

00:09:58   When I'm at Apple Park, I want to kind of soak in the feeling of being there a little bit more

00:10:04   and sitting there with a laptop is not what I want to do.

00:10:09   There was somebody in front of me who was continually taking photos with their iPad,

00:10:13   which was really annoying throughout the entire presentation.

00:10:16   But, you know, that's just how some people do these things.

00:10:19   And I wasn't sure if I was going to take any notes at all.

00:10:25   But I was sitting next to you and John Gruber and you both pulled out your notebooks.

00:10:28   And I was like, you know what?

00:10:29   I'm going to do it.

00:10:29   And so I took a bunch of notes.

00:10:31   And I referenced this very quickly on the recording.

00:10:34   But I then left my notebook in my bag and put my bag behind my chair while we were recording the last episode.

00:10:41   And I didn't want to get up because I was going to have to move all the microphone and everything.

00:10:46   And so I ended up then just not having the notes.

00:10:48   But as field notes say, I don't write things down to remember them later.

00:10:53   I write them down to remember them now.

00:10:55   And I do agree with that process that sitting and making a note about something actually kind of enforces it in your brain a little bit more.

00:11:01   It does. It's definitely a different process.

00:11:04   And I find value in both.

00:11:05   There's, you know, as with everything in our world, there's this big narrative about like, oh, you should never take notes on computers.

00:11:12   And, you know, you should only use handwriting or back and forth.

00:11:15   And it's like, look, they're just different.

00:11:17   They're just different.

00:11:18   They have different uses.

00:11:19   They have different values.

00:11:19   They're both equally valid.

00:11:21   I'll shout out also, I mean, Grouper is a great example because he, I've always said publicly that I am fascinated by his choice because it says, I'm here, I'm not here to break news.

00:11:36   I'm here to think and analyze and ponder.

00:11:39   And I've always admired that, but there was a long stretch in my career where I was there to cover the breaking news and feed things out to people and all of that.

00:11:47   And I, I don't need to do that.

00:11:50   I can do it in a notebook now.

00:11:52   And so I did it.

00:11:53   And also I will shout out Studio Neat because I used their Mark II with clip.

00:11:58   So it's a really nice pen with a clip that's small that can clip to the little rings inside the reporter's notebook and then pull it out and magnetically attach it.

00:12:08   And it's, yeah, very nice.

00:12:11   Great pen.

00:12:11   Yeah.

00:12:12   So we mentioned, uh, there's a couple of little bits I wanted to talk about.

00:12:16   So we mentioned in the keynote that Apple showed some tools for letting you dynamically resize your apps to different window sizes.

00:12:22   Like it's got a particular shout out obvious what that's going to be for, which is for the folding iPhone.

00:12:29   So they want you to kind of start getting ready to have your, uh, iPhone apps being able to be shown in different sizes.

00:12:35   Um, it turns out that one of the things coming to Mac OS Golden Gate is the ability to also resize iPhone mirroring windows.

00:12:45   And so like, this is a thing you can do now in Golden Gate.

00:12:48   Um, like some of apps, I think the weather app is one of them where you can just stretch it out.

00:12:53   So that is actually a nice thing you can do to test this, I think, uh, in, if you want to test it, but I've already seen some developers kind of playing around with these new tools in Xcode and kind of like stretching their app UIs out a little bit.

00:13:06   Um, so I think it's good that they're providing some of this stuff now rather than providing it in September, which is definitely a thing they could do, but, you know, would just be like, Hey, and now it's also for developers to get ready for this phone.

00:13:18   You've got three weeks, uh, at least this way people can start to get the basics of what their UI might want to be.

00:13:24   So they can be available for the folding iPhone on day one.

00:13:27   Exactly.

00:13:28   Um, makes sense to do it now.

00:13:30   And they have multiple ways that they can expose this without saying, Hey, everybody, we're doing a folding phone.

00:13:36   And iPhone mirroring is one of them.

00:13:39   And you, you're supposedly, I haven't done it.

00:13:41   Um, you should be able to resize iPhone app windows in iPadOS too.

00:13:45   Yeah, that is a, yeah, that's a, that's a feature in iPadOS.

00:13:48   So, so that's whether it's in the beta or not.

00:13:51   I don't know.

00:13:51   I, that one, I haven't, I'm not on the iPad beta.

00:13:53   We're going to talk about betas in a minute, but, um, but yeah, it's, it's, this is the classic Apple thing, right?

00:13:58   This is where you look and you say, ah, Apple is prepping without actually saying that they're prepping, but we all know that they're prepping for the folding phone.

00:14:06   And, uh, I, you know, I always love it when we see that.

00:14:10   Um, the other one, did we mention this last week?

00:14:13   I'm not sure, but, uh, they also are adding support for higher resolution and better, uh, capabilities for, uh, for, for webcams that use the HomeKit secure video.

00:14:25   Yeah.

00:14:25   And I had somebody point out to me, 4k up to 4k support now.

00:14:29   Yeah.

00:14:29   And somebody pointed out to me, that would be a good feature to have if Apple's going to do a webcam, which is again, rumored.

00:14:34   Do you mean like a home camera, a home, not a web, not a webcam.

00:14:37   Sorry, not a webcam, a home security camera or a, or a, or a doorbell cam.

00:14:42   And that is a rumored product.

00:14:43   And it's just like, yeah, I don't think Apple put that in there just for a car, a sake, right?

00:14:48   Like, cause it's years and years and years that they should have done this.

00:14:51   No, I know that this is the, the year of like, you know, performance updates or whatever, but that feels like something a little bit different because it's like, this is also for up for third parties to use.

00:15:04   So yeah, that makes a lot of sense, I think, I think, because of that.

00:15:07   Those are the two games we play.

00:15:08   Those are the two games we play at WWDC.

00:15:10   One is what features are laying groundwork for products that we know that are coming that Apple is not going to announce.

00:15:16   And the other game is what longstanding features got improved because Apple needed them to be improved for other features that they're doing, which there was a lot of this year because they needed to update Spotlight and shortcuts and all sorts of stuff so that their features could use those things better, even though we'd been asking for those things for a long time.

00:15:35   Number one customer of Apple is Apple, other parts of Apple, then sometimes they can get them, not all the time, sometimes they can't, but sometimes they can't.

00:15:43   No, no, they're like, oh, hey, App Store, we want to do this, this suite.

00:15:46   And the App Store is like, sorry, no, but Spotlight, we need you to redo the Spotlight.

00:15:51   Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, we'll do that.

00:15:52   One of the stories leading up to WWDC was wondering what Apple's developer story for AI would be.

00:16:00   And, you know, one of the things is that the foundation models now are significantly better than the foundation models that they're replacing.

00:16:07   But there was also private cloud compute, like what was going to happen to private cloud compute.

00:16:12   And there is a developer story.

00:16:13   So Apple has made private cloud compute available to developers.

00:16:17   However, if you as a developer have any app in your account that has amassed more than 2 million downloads, you cannot use private cloud compute at all.

00:16:27   And Apple have announced no way around this, even for money yet.

00:16:32   Now, it would feel to me, like, so I'll put a piece from Darren Fireball about this.

00:16:38   John kind of breaks it down.

00:16:39   It feels to me like they just haven't got their ducks in a row with exactly how to charge yet.

00:16:47   Because this makes no sense to me for them not to charge for this.

00:16:52   It's either that they don't have their ducks in a row for charging or that they are deathly afraid of how much compute they're going to need.

00:17:06   And that until they get a really better gauge on what that looks like, they're reluctant to open the gates wide to popular apps, basically.

00:17:17   But, yeah, I agree.

00:17:18   The most logical thing here is to treat this like weather kit and say, you pay per use.

00:17:23   As a developer, you pay per use and do it that way.

00:17:26   That makes complete sense.

00:17:28   It's like, you want to use our AI infrastructure.

00:17:29   It's an API just like any other AI infrastructure.

00:17:33   And maybe it's competitive.

00:17:35   It's Apple only.

00:17:36   I don't know.

00:17:37   Because there are others out there.

00:17:39   And so developers, why do they want to use this one?

00:17:43   It's like, well, because it's from Apple.

00:17:44   Is it because they thought it would be cheap or free?

00:17:47   Because Apple can't do that.

00:17:49   Apple can't play that game.

00:17:50   So Apple is trying to navigate this a little bit.

00:17:53   But I agree.

00:17:54   It would be kind of nice if developers of Apple only apps especially had access to that in a way that it's easier,

00:18:03   but also that they can compensate Apple for use.

00:18:07   It's not unreasonable.

00:18:07   If you're a developer, you can kind of feel comfortable from the privacy perspective, right?

00:18:14   And there are API tools at the system level that you can hook into.

00:18:18   That's true.

00:18:18   There are a lot of benefits.

00:18:19   It's all private cloud compute.

00:18:20   Sure.

00:18:21   So I really hope that they do.

00:18:22   Like, I really hope that there is a story.

00:18:24   I imagine that they will.

00:18:26   It's just a matter of when.

00:18:28   So, Jason, we are halfway through the Kickstarter campaign for our new podcast designed in California that will launch later this year.

00:18:37   So I wanted to just touch on a couple of bits and actually answer some frequently asked questions that we've been getting.

00:18:44   We have a Qs.

00:18:45   Yeah.

00:18:45   We're going to Q some As.

00:18:47   I always want to say Q some Fs, but that's not right.

00:18:50   We're not going to question some Frequentlys.

00:18:52   We're going to A some Qs.

00:18:53   There you go.

00:18:54   We're not going to question some answers either.

00:18:55   You provide the Qs.

00:18:56   We provide the A's.

00:18:57   So as of recording, we're over $170,000 raised.

00:19:02   And once we get to $175,000, we're going to have more art, more music for the show.

00:19:09   We're looking forward to showing off the artwork that we're working on, but that's still very much under work right now.

00:19:15   And then we mentioned this a little bit already, but if we hit $200,000, we're going to commit to two live events, one in San Francisco, one in London.

00:19:24   What was a framework of live event TBA?

00:19:28   We're not exactly sure what they will be yet, but we will do something in both cities, which we're excited about.

00:19:34   I wanted to just reference the bonus episodes that we're putting out on the show so far.

00:19:40   People seem to really be enjoying them, so thank you so much to everybody that is listening to them.

00:19:46   The last episode, so the one that came out last week, was about Jobs and Wozniak traveling to the computer show PC76 and the beginnings of the breakdown of their relationship, which unbelievably happened before the Apple II even came to be.

00:20:00   And then in our next episode, the one that's coming out this Thursday, we're going to dig into exactly what the Apple II is, like functionally, how Woz put it together, and then how all of the other components that were needed to bring that computer to the market.

00:20:18   So that's a really good one.

00:20:21   The last two are my favorite of the four.

00:20:23   The episode three is the one where, and this is, I had somebody ask me, like, well, you know, you're doing all the writing.

00:20:28   What's Mike there for?

00:20:30   What is he there for?

00:20:31   Well, I need somebody to talk to.

00:20:32   He's producing, he's doing a lot of behind-the-scenes work as well.

00:20:35   Yeah.

00:20:36   But one of the important parts of the show is us having a back-and-forth.

00:20:39   I mean, you helped me get to a really interesting point at the end of episode three about how the Apple II is the first glimpse, I think, of what we've come to think of as Steve Jobs.

00:20:50   Like, oh, that's Steve Jobs doing Steve Jobs stuff right there with Apple's second product.

00:20:57   So Graham asked, will Designed in California have video versions?

00:21:03   I see that you've been doing them so far, but I wasn't sure if it's just because they're episodes of Upgrade.

00:21:09   Yeah, we actually invisibly passed our video stretch goal, which was at 1.50, and we couldn't post it in time that we went over 1.50.

00:21:17   But yes, we are going to do video episodes.

00:21:19   What you've been seeing in the Upgrade feed on YouTube, those are being produced in the same method that we produce Upgrade,

00:21:26   which is they're not tied to the audio edit.

00:21:30   They're simpler edits because we're editing it separately based on the same notes.

00:21:34   And so it's not as tightly edited.

00:21:36   I would say it's not the finished Designed in California product, but as a video version on YouTube, as a sample, we're both okay with it.

00:21:45   But the answer is yes, we are going to do it.

00:21:48   We're going to use a different workflow that we've been working on.

00:21:52   We're not 100% sure where all it's going to go.

00:21:55   There's a lot of complexity there about, is it going to be on YouTube?

00:21:58   Is it going to be a member version?

00:22:00   Are we going to put it on Spotify?

00:22:02   Are we going to make it a video version in Apple Podcasts?

00:22:05   How do we get all of that stuff connected?

00:22:08   And there's a bunch of technical challenges.

00:22:10   The beauty of this is, because it's a Kickstarter, we can say we're going to do it, and then we've got until the show launches to figure out exactly how we're going to do it.

00:22:18   But we are going to do it.

00:22:20   We figured out how to do it.

00:22:21   I have a proof of concept of episode two that we looked at this week that matches the audio edit perfectly, which is, that was the big question, is could we do that?

00:22:32   And there was a way.

00:22:33   And would it be watchable?

00:22:34   And would it be watchable, which I think it very much is.

00:22:38   So now we're constructing a plan, and yes, I hope that part of that will actually be that it will be more so that the video version will have, like if we're referencing products or events and there are photos that will, which is not something we have time for with Upgrade, because Upgrade is all about being timely.

00:22:54   And I had somebody sort of snidely comment that if we really wanted our YouTube version of Upgrade to be better, it would have a bunch of annotations and photos and stuff.

00:23:02   It's like that's Upgrade.

00:23:03   The goal is to get it out as fast as possible, because it's timely.

00:23:05   That's the goal.

00:23:06   Design in California, we're going to have a multi-week production process, and part of that process is going to be making the video.

00:23:12   And we are hoping to do way more in terms of seeing if we can get imagery in there.

00:23:19   But again, I will also emphasize we are treating it as an audio podcast, first and foremost, and that's how the edit starts.

00:23:26   But we will add, I would say, image annotation for the video version.

00:23:32   I actually think that will enhance the audio version as well, because if we're going to do all that image research and license images and do whatever we need to do, we'll probably pop those in to the show notes or even to the chapter art for the audio podcast as well.

00:23:46   So that's all because we passed 150, a stretch goal we didn't even get time to announce.

00:23:50   So yes, is the answer.

00:23:51   We are going to do video.

00:23:52   Details to come.

00:23:55   This has been one of the great things, I'd say one of the hidden great things for us of doing this Kickstarter campaign is that, you know, really we did this because we wanted to see if there was an audience for the show.

00:24:08   And it turns out that there is one, and that audience is very happy to pay for it.

00:24:13   And so as we've been raising more money, we're able to commit to more complicated things because we can.

00:24:22   So when the show launches, it's going to be so much better than if we would have launched it on its own.

00:24:30   At the bare bones, we picked a bare bones figure.

00:24:32   It was like, this will allow us to do the show, but I would say at its most basic level.

00:24:37   And we're not talking about adding a lot of frills here.

00:24:39   It's like, oh, we have a little room to breathe to do things like get images.

00:24:44   And, you know, if it's a Getty Images image or something, you know, license the image so we're not ripping off images or, you know, like, I don't want to make those choices.

00:24:51   We can do that.

00:24:52   We can have the ability to say we're going to do this and we're going to do it right in a bunch of different ways that are, again, it's a little bit, it's almost invisibly making the show better, which we always would have done if we had been capable of it.

00:25:05   But now we know we are capable of it.

00:25:07   And that's just really good, good feeling to have.

00:25:09   Rob asked, will it be possible to buy membership to Designed in California after the Kickstarter has ended?

00:25:14   Yes.

00:25:16   So we're discounting it right now.

00:25:18   So on the Kickstarter campaign, you can get a membership for $60 for a year.

00:25:22   It will become $70 for a year once the show begins.

00:25:27   And it will be a little bit before then.

00:25:30   We're going to kind of, like, get the feed ready.

00:25:32   I'll talk about that in a second, actually, because someone had a question about that.

00:25:35   But, yes, you will be able to buy.

00:25:37   We have regular Relay Show, right?

00:25:39   Yeah, it'll be a Relay Show when those are $70 a year.

00:25:42   And we do monthly for that.

00:25:44   So you could actually get it monthly if you wanted to and pay even more.

00:25:47   But if you want to save, the Kickstarter is the way to save because you can get it for $60 for a year.

00:25:51   And Sriram asked, it would be awesome if you were to include the Origin of Apple episode of Upgrade in the Designed in California feed for continuity when it launches.

00:26:04   Way ahead of you, Sriram.

00:26:06   The plan from the beginning has been, we are going to launch a Designed in California feed, not Designed by California.

00:26:12   Yeah, Designed in California.

00:26:13   Yeah, that's what Stephen called it, Unconnected.

00:26:16   All California voted, and they said, yes, design it.

00:26:21   The plan always has been, we actually had Jim Metzendorf, our editor, hold on to the Applet 50 edits.

00:26:30   And we're going to generate a Designed in California, now I'm going to say Designed by California.

00:26:38   Jim's going to generate a Designed in California version of Applet 50 that will be Episode 0, basically.

00:26:44   And then the ones that we've been putting in the feed this month will be Episodes 1, 2, 3, 4.

00:26:49   And we'll go from there.

00:26:51   So yeah, we're going to preload, before the episodes that you haven't heard launch, we will preload that feed with Applet 50 and the four parts of the Rise of the Apple 2.

00:27:02   So when the feed goes out, it'll already have that extra long episode and the four episodes that we've been putting in the Upgrade feed.

00:27:11   So there'll be a complete Designed in California RSS feed for members and for the general public with the free version.

00:27:18   And that will all be available a few weeks before the show begins.

00:27:21   Yeah, so we'll prime the pump.

00:27:23   We'll have that out there before we start dropping brand new episodes, which we, somebody asked me about that.

00:27:30   And I'm like, you know, I think we would like to start doing that maybe beginning of September, but we'll see.

00:27:37   I think that's the plan right now.

00:27:39   Yeah, because we want to, obviously, we have to start the production process for the next set.

00:27:44   We both also have some travel coming up.

00:27:46   So we're trying not to rush it as such.

00:27:49   We want it to, we want it, you know, essentially we have to launch the show again as well.

00:27:53   So there is a benefit in us stopping talking about it for a little while because we have, because we then need to launch the show to everyone for free.

00:28:02   Yeah.

00:28:02   And so that will give us some space to do that.

00:28:04   But once we started, we're in the flow.

00:28:06   But at the moment, we're kind of estimating a like 10 week, probably production process for each episode.

00:28:13   But once it's going, it's kind of going.

00:28:16   I've been thinking more like seven or eight weeks, but yeah, it's going to be.

00:28:18   Is that including your writing though?

00:28:20   Yeah.

00:28:21   Oh, okay.

00:28:22   So there you go.

00:28:22   Yeah, I think so.

00:28:23   I think, I think week seven and eight are, are my writing weeks.

00:28:26   But yeah, this is a, it's the opposite of upgrade, which is so we're trying to be as timely as possible.

00:28:33   And it means we have time to build a whole production process, which will be interesting.

00:28:37   It reminds me of magazines back in my magazine days, because really you're going to, we're moving cards across a Kanban board and they're going to be episodes in different stages of production.

00:28:46   But that's the way to do it.

00:28:48   Yep.

00:28:48   And that's, that's, you know, we have, we have the luxury, which we generally, you and I never have of having a, building a production process that includes me writing a script and you giving notes and other people giving notes.

00:29:02   And then me finishing the script and then we do a record and then there's like the edit pass and then there's another edit pass.

00:29:09   And like, we, we got, we got time to build the show up.

00:29:12   Also keeping in mind that when we release, if we do a four episode block about something, the release date is not episode one and then a week later, episode two, and then a week later, episode three, because all of those will drop for members right at once.

00:29:26   Yes.

00:29:26   That's our deadline.

00:29:27   So we have to have all four episodes ready on that day.

00:29:30   So, um, we have to build that into a process.

00:29:33   It's actually, I'm really excited about it because this is a different kind of structure.

00:29:36   I've never done anything.

00:29:37   All the other podcasts I do.

00:29:38   Yeah, it's great.

00:29:39   To this degree.

00:29:40   I mean, Cortex has a pretty chunky production timeline, but it's nowhere near what this will be.

00:29:46   There's going to be more people involved with this one.

00:29:48   Absolutely.

00:29:48   For sure.

00:29:49   Uh, in a good way.

00:29:50   But also like, you know, you're saying like a magazine, also that there will be a lot of movement too.

00:29:56   Like I had the thought the other day that, you know, maybe we would work on a one shot of Snow Leopard, right?

00:30:02   That we would want to put in, like, because Snow Leopard's on everybody's lips right now.

00:30:06   We're going to talk about it in a minute.

00:30:08   Yeah.

00:30:08   So like, there's also that kind of feeling too.

00:30:10   Like we may be in production of a series, but like, you know what?

00:30:13   Let's actually pause this.

00:30:15   Drop in a timely angle.

00:30:17   Yeah.

00:30:18   So that kind of stuff is available to us.

00:30:21   So I'm excited about that process.

00:30:22   So if you want to go and support the campaign, you still can.

00:30:28   You still can for the next couple of weeks.

00:30:29   Please go to designed.fm.

00:30:32   You can check it out.

00:30:33   We have so many tiers.

00:30:34   Check them out.

00:30:35   And we're excited to share more of you over the next couple of weeks.

00:30:38   And look in the show notes if you're an Upgrade Plus member for special links.

00:30:42   It'll let you save some money.

00:30:43   Yeah.

00:30:45   This episode is brought to you by our friends over at Sentry.

00:30:49   Building with AI is exciting until something breaks and then you have no idea why that happened.

00:30:56   Which LLM call failed?

00:30:58   Which tool timed out?

00:30:59   How much did that agent run truly cost?

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00:31:47   But when you're letting something else into your code, it can introduce more issues, which is exactly not what you want.

00:31:55   So I think it's amazing that Sentry will allow you to pull these tools in and then also observe them alongside all of the other stuff that Sentry is giving you about bugs, about issues, about crashes, things that are slowing your apps down, which are making it not great for your users.

00:32:09   And everybody knows, like I know, you want your app to run well, smoothly, and first time for everybody that uses it.

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00:32:35   Our thanks to Sentry for their support of this show and Relay.

00:32:39   So I wanted to kind of reflect a little bit on last week.

00:32:46   You know, we've had a week now to think more about WWDC.

00:32:49   We both have briefings of presentations.

00:32:51   We've both read and heard many more thoughts now and had conversations while in California.

00:32:56   You mentioned that you wrote your piece where you emptied the notebook.

00:33:00   So I wanted to kind of see where are you, what are you feeling right now about what we saw last week?

00:33:06   You know, it's so weird, right?

00:33:12   Because it is, I keep coming back to like, it's like sand running through your fingers.

00:33:17   That there's like the big picture issue, which is so big, in fact, sometimes that I think that because of all the drama about Apple intelligence, we've missed some of the big picture.

00:33:27   And then there's all the little things, which are a challenge that is the sand running through your fingers.

00:33:36   Adam Angst at Tidbits wrote a piece where he actually like tried to very intelligently catalog all the things that are in that big slide.

00:33:46   And it's like, and I really, when the public data comes out, I'll get a PDF from Apple PR of like, here's what the new features are.

00:33:54   And I'm wondering how, I do not envy the person who has to put that together because there's so many things that are little and they're all important or potentially very important.

00:34:04   But how do you get your hands around them?

00:34:07   Because it's just like, this is better and this is better and this is better and trying to find trends and all that.

00:34:11   The big picture that I keep coming back to, that I just want to remind people, like, we don't know.

00:34:16   It's early.

00:34:17   There's a lot more to be done.

00:34:20   But it's not just Apple makes good on their promise of two years ago, which I think is part of this.

00:34:28   And it's funny because it's also Apple not changing its approach to AI, right?

00:34:36   Like, the way it described its approach to AI hasn't changed in two years.

00:34:39   It's just that they got a model that actually works and they replaced all of Siri with, you know, Mike Rockwell said in that post-kenote thing.

00:34:47   To me, that's the quote of the week was, we tore Siri down to the ground and rebuilt it a year ago because it just didn't do it good enough.

00:34:56   It almost felt like he was excited to say it.

00:34:58   Oh, he was super.

00:34:59   We know the backstory there, right?

00:35:01   Which is, according to Mark Gurman, that, like, Rockwell thought that Siri was going to be a cornerstone of Vision OS and it couldn't be because it just was bad.

00:35:09   And that's the bigger picture that I wanted to say is, just step back for a second and say, how long has it been that we've all been talking about how Apple needs to do a new Siri because Siri is bad?

00:35:21   Apple needs to fix Siri, do a new Siri, whatever it is.

00:35:24   This isn't just about kind of like making good on the Apple intelligence promises from two years ago.

00:35:29   So it is literally, if they did it right, like they did it, everybody, they did a new Siri that is good, or at least certainly the bar is so low, certainly is viable.

00:35:43   And that's amazing.

00:35:45   Unto itself, that part of it is amazing if it's true, because we've been waiting for that a lot longer than two years, right?

00:35:51   That's been, you know, 10 years, eight years that we've been all sort of like looking at our watches and waiting for a new Siri to appear.

00:35:57   So I think that that's one of the things that stuck with me is, like, it really is not just Apple intelligence.

00:36:06   It's imagine a Siri that works for you.

00:36:09   Yeah, I was thinking it was on the Vergecast, even David O'Neill said, if Apple two years ago would have said, this is our plan, we're going to rebuild Siri.

00:36:21   It's going to dig into your personal contacts, your messages, your emails, but it's going to take us two years to do it.

00:36:28   I think we would have been like, huh, okay, that sounds really good.

00:36:32   You know, and it's like, it's essentially what they did without meaning to, right?

00:36:37   And it's like, it's going to, they had an idea, they're now executing on that idea, but it took two years of work to get to this point.

00:36:45   And talking about Mike Rockwell saying that somewhat gleefully, I mean, you could really make the argument that it was Apple's complete failure in 2024 that gave him the latitude to say what they've never, I think, been able to say before, which is always like, let's patch Siri, let's fix Siri, let's change this part of Siri.

00:37:05   Because they so abjectly failed two years ago, it let Rockwell say, tear it all down, you know, tear it all down.

00:37:13   Siri just can't, can't be saved as it is.

00:37:17   We need to tear it down completely.

00:37:19   He had the ability to do that a year ago, right?

00:37:22   Because it's like, they can't get it wrong.

00:37:24   And they already, you know, they already blew it in 24 and had to skip it in 25.

00:37:28   So it's like, okay, let's just make sure that in 26, we are there with the new thing.

00:37:32   And, you know, it, I'm reminded of like, when they redid the Bay Bridge, like they said, well, we can fix the Bay Bridge in six months if we shut down the Bay Bridge for six months, but we need the bridge to remain open.

00:37:45   Like, construction projects are way more complicated when you can't just knock down the old thing and build a new thing.

00:37:51   You've got to keep the new, the old thing there while you build the new thing next to it and then figure out a way to move them, switch from one to the other.

00:37:57   And it's like, that is way harder.

00:37:59   Well, Rockwell had the, the, the latitude because it got so bad to just knock down Siri.

00:38:05   I mean, I, I know it's still running, but it's, this is the metaphor is he didn't, he didn't have to sort of like make piecemeal improvements to the existing Siri.

00:38:12   He got to just tear it down to the studs or, or down to the ground.

00:38:15   He said, tear it down to the ground.

00:38:16   I think that's a, so it's a, they, they should have done that.

00:38:21   Obviously they should have done it before, but it does seem like this was the final straw where he finally got the ability to say, let's just rip it apart and good for him.

00:38:29   One of the things that I thought was really interesting from the article that you wrote kind of when talking about Apple's AI ambitions is saying that you would like to see them have more.

00:38:41   throughout the 27 cycle, like new features.

00:38:44   Yeah.

00:38:45   I was, I was talking to Ina Fried from Axios as we were walking up to the Steve Jobs theater and she was saying how she's not like, both of us were agreeing that like out, the question is like, is Apple cut out for the AI pace?

00:39:02   And I, I just kept thinking about that, that I think their challenges that culturally Apple has for a long time been on this annual cycle.

00:39:14   And I think one of the reasons for it is because of the gravity of the iPhone, right?

00:39:18   Just like they got into a groove where like the iPhone comes out every fall, the OS versions need to come out for the iPhone because the new iPhone runs the new OS version because it's got new features in it that the new iPhone needs.

00:39:29   It's like, okay, fair enough.

00:39:31   So they get on this annual pace because it used to be like Mac OS came out kind of randomly, right?

00:39:36   Like every, you know, year and a half or whatever.

00:39:40   So, okay, great.

00:39:41   The problem is AI doesn't move like that.

00:39:44   AI moves faster than that.

00:39:45   And, and, and even if you say, well, we're going to, we, we, we've got a year's worth of work that we're going to work on over the next year, but six months in, there's a trend in AI and you need to adjust, right?

00:39:56   And since Apple, since 2024 happened, has been, I think more focused on announcing features at DubDub that ship in the fall, ship by the end of the year, because they don't want to make that mistake again of over promising things that are too far out.

00:40:13   I think it actually gives them an opportunity to think about what's coming in the spring and adjust based on what they see in the AI world.

00:40:24   Is there a new thing we should be doing or that, that we're going to get behind on?

00:40:28   Because the judgments they made, I don't know, in January about what was going to be in 27 may not be judgments they would make in September about what was going to be in 27.3 or 27.4.

00:40:39   And so that's, that's why like, and you know, the 26 cycle added some stuff in the spring.

00:40:46   The iPhone is no longer going to be released at one time.

00:40:49   As far as we can tell, it's going to be released in two blobs.

00:40:52   There are lots of things pointing toward the idea that Apple can spread their cycle out a lot more and have it be okay.

00:40:58   And I think that's good because I think Apple needs to have the flexibility to sense the trends in AI and adjust their strategy for the second half of the 27 cycle instead of setting it and then not touching it for a year, which is, I think, what Apple was very comfortable doing back in the 24 and before era.

00:41:23   Yeah. And, you know, you referenced about the speed.

00:41:27   I don't think Apple is going to work at the speed of AI companies, nor should they really, but there should be more than just once a year because they should be developing their technology more quickly than that.

00:41:45   Yeah. And maybe it's stuff that they're working on and they decide to prioritize something that otherwise was going to wait for the next cycle.

00:41:53   And they're like, no, actually, this is the time to do it.

00:41:55   That strike when the iron is hot.

00:41:56   The idea, yeah, they're not going to be like super nimble and they don't need to be, but they need to have the ability.

00:42:03   Like I said, if there's a trend in AI and there's a project they're working on and they have a moment where they're like, actually, this is kind of becoming big.

00:42:10   Like OpenClaw is an example.

00:42:12   Yeah.

00:42:12   And that's something that there's not a lot of agentic stuff in the 27 announcements.

00:42:18   But if I were them, I would think, okay, we can't get a lot more agentic stuff or more help for people who are running things like OpenClaw in 27.0.

00:42:30   So we're not going to announce it.

00:42:32   But maybe there's a decision that's made in the spring sometime of this year that says that actually needs to be a higher priority.

00:42:39   We were going to wait for 28.

00:42:40   Let's bring it up to 27.3.4 and do it in the spring.

00:42:44   That's the kind of stuff I'm talking about.

00:42:46   I'm not talking about drop everything and we're going to ship a new feature in a month.

00:42:50   More like keep your eyes on the horizon, see what's going on, and don't make it a cycle where you don't have the ability to steer the ship a little bit mid-cycle in a way that maybe you didn't plan.

00:43:04   I think that's what they need to do.

00:43:05   They don't need to be at the pace of AI, but they need to get used to making those decisions and phasing in features that were not, you know, there should be something in 27.4 that they didn't think was going to be in the 27 cycle, but that they moved it up because it felt like they needed to do that.

00:43:24   Because also they should be continually improving their models, and those should bring with them improvements on new features, capabilities that are now available.

00:43:35   And even something like making a big deal out of improving the Apple intelligence model in May, because now it can enable you to produce better images.

00:43:46   You can do more with your photos, you can do more with your photo edits, you can, you know, Genmoji is better.

00:43:51   Like, these things should be doable, and they can talk about those even if they want to hold big features for WWDC.

00:44:01   You can still, they should still be making, banging the drum for what they're doing.

00:44:07   And I'll say this, you know, we'll talk about it in much more detail later.

00:44:11   They should be doing this because Siri AI is really good.

00:44:14   Like, I think it's really good.

00:44:16   So they should continue to keep making it better all the time, which is one of the reasons why I thought that they would have an app in the App Store,

00:44:23   because it would give them kind of the ability to be nimble with just that component.

00:44:28   But it seems like, you were pointing this out, you're clearly right, it's embedded so deeply into the operating system.

00:44:33   I'm not actually sure that that's really feasible.

00:44:35   But also there's so much stuff that's on the server as well, right?

00:44:39   So they can be continually making improvements across the whole thing.

00:44:43   Kind of parking AI for a moment.

00:44:44   I went to kind of talk about the Snow Leopard of it all.

00:44:47   So I was in a briefing.

00:44:49   I think you had a similar briefing.

00:44:50   And Apple brought up the word Snow Leopard before anybody else in my room could do it.

00:44:55   Snow Leopard and iOS 12.

00:44:56   There's like, think of this as a Snow Leopard and iOS 12 kind of situation.

00:44:59   I'm like, yeah, okay.

00:45:00   It's like, yeah, we were all thinking about it.

00:45:02   It's also funny.

00:45:02   It's like, I didn't remember iOS 12 was that.

00:45:05   It wasn't in my memory that iOS 12 was performance improvement year.

00:45:09   And so I started looking through Wikipedia today.

00:45:11   And iOS 12 did actually have a lot of features.

00:45:14   They weren't huge with a lot of features.

00:45:15   But it reminded me of how terrible iOS 11 was.

00:45:19   And that was why they had to do this.

00:45:22   Because iOS 11 was rough.

00:45:24   Yeah, yeah, this is, and Snow Leopard, I actually got, I found Stephen Hackett in 2009 linked

00:45:32   to my story about Snow Leopard at Macworld, my review.

00:45:35   But the Macworld review was gone off the web.

00:45:38   So I actually asked, and it was in the CMS, and it just didn't, so I asked my editor at

00:45:43   Macworld to put it back live, which he did, which is great.

00:45:45   Stephen updated his story from 2009, which is great.

00:45:48   And I was able to link to that Snow Leopard review in a couple of places.

00:45:51   And that was so long ago now, it was back when Apple charged for software updates.

00:45:55   I had to give buying advice about, like, is it worth it to pay for Snow Leopard?

00:45:58   What?

00:45:58   But it was famously a, very much this release, in the sense that people, over time, started

00:46:08   to refer to it as no new features.

00:46:10   But there's loads of new features in Snow Leopard.

00:46:12   It's just they were all little.

00:46:13   They're all little new features.

00:46:15   Hundreds of little changes and fixes and stuff.

00:46:18   And it's good.

00:46:19   It's good to have a year like that.

00:46:21   I think I was thinking about this from the standpoint of how our reaction to the 27 announcements

00:46:31   explains why we don't get bug fix updates.

00:46:36   And actually, I thought Joanna Stern, who was on the talk show on Tuesday night, the latest

00:46:43   live on stage version of the talk show with John Gruber.

00:46:46   She was on there with Nilay Patel.

00:46:48   I think she said it best because she said it was boring.

00:46:53   The keynote was boring.

00:46:54   And then she said, like, but in a good way.

00:46:57   And that, I think, that shows you what the difficulty is with doing a bug fixes and improvements update.

00:47:05   Is that it's hard to describe what they are because there's a bunch of little things and they're

00:47:09   not that interesting mostly.

00:47:10   It's the sand running through your fingers.

00:47:13   And a barrage of, like, little things is super boring because they're all just these little

00:47:21   random things.

00:47:22   And that's why that segment was only 15 minutes long.

00:47:24   It's because, like, it was actually incredibly meaningful and will drive huge amounts of

00:47:30   improvements in the lives of people who use Apple's platforms.

00:47:32   But as a stage production, it was a snooze.

00:47:36   And here, this is why I'm saying we are our own worst enemies because we look at the thing,

00:47:43   we get the thing we've been asking for, which is please slow down and just make things run

00:47:48   faster and work better.

00:47:49   And then when Apple does that, we shout, boring, because we want to be excited.

00:47:54   See, I didn't think it was boring, but I agree with what you're saying.

00:47:58   It's hard to market it.

00:48:00   It's hard to market little stuff.

00:48:02   Flashy one.

00:48:02   So I actually asked about, like, along these lines, right?

00:48:06   Like, because my assumption was one of the reasons they could do this was because they

00:48:12   had the AI stuff, right?

00:48:14   So they could, you know, say, look over here while they're doing some of the stuff.

00:48:17   There was a tentpole feature.

00:48:19   It was AI and Siri AI.

00:48:20   But it's not the platform stuff, right?

00:48:22   You can see how a lot of that is kind of, like, on top or, like, there's things going

00:48:26   on in the back.

00:48:26   And it's like, I was, what I wanted to try and understand is if, because I was really

00:48:31   surprised about all of the, this is faster, this is faster, this is faster, so many things

00:48:36   faster.

00:48:36   And so it's like, well, did something happen at Apple that allowed things to go faster?

00:48:44   Or was it just because people were allowed to do it?

00:48:48   And the sense that I got was, even though they have things like the CPU scheduler that helps

00:48:52   a lot of things in a lot of places, the impression I got was that so many of these games were

00:48:58   possible because the engineers were given the freedom to tackle them.

00:49:01   And so they, people were like, if you can make something faster, make it faster.

00:49:06   And that was, you were, they were allowed to do it rather than, hey, you need to create

00:49:11   an iMessage app store or you need to add writing tools to pages or whatever.

00:49:17   And so when you give them, when it's like, hey, we're going to do, we're going to do a

00:49:22   snow leopard on this gang.

00:49:24   And then everyone's like, great.

00:49:25   Now let me go and fix these 50 things that I've been wanting to fix.

00:49:28   They know those things are there, but they're too busy.

00:49:31   And this is, I do think having a few tentpole features allows everybody else time to look

00:49:37   at everything else and figure it out.

00:49:40   And I think that's good.

00:49:41   I think you should do it.

00:49:42   Maybe not every time.

00:49:43   I mean, more of that every time would be great, but certainly every so often what you

00:49:49   do is you say, we still have a huge thing or two.

00:49:52   And then also this is a year where we're going to, you know, make everything faster and better

00:49:57   and, and fix bugs and stuff.

00:49:59   And I think that's, I think it's good, but I just, I'm reminded that this is the, this

00:50:04   is why companies are driven to do tentpole features and not prioritize things like performance

00:50:10   and bug fixes is because they're hard to market.

00:50:15   They're hard to get your users excited about.

00:50:17   And, you know, it's a little bit of us taking our medicine, but like, it's going to be great,

00:50:24   right?

00:50:24   It's going to, it's already the, the, the reports about developer beta one are very positive.

00:50:28   I was thinking about the fact that, um, of course, developer beta one is stable.

00:50:34   Stability was a feature that they focused on.

00:50:38   So they've been trying to get it stable for months now.

00:50:42   This should be as stable as any beta one could have possibly been, right?

00:50:46   Because the whole point of the operating system is stability.

00:50:49   So stability, you should be, even in your least stable state, you should still be stable.

00:50:54   You would hope.

00:50:56   I had like two big picture thoughts that I wanted to share one, like when thinking about

00:51:01   everything from the week, I feel like Apple has some confidence about it right now.

00:51:08   Like, so, you know, in that the keynote was slim, they focused on what they wanted to focus on.

00:51:14   They could have spent more time talking about the platform improvements if they wanted to,

00:51:18   because there's so many of them.

00:51:19   They could have made a few more of these things feel like features.

00:51:23   They could have done some demos of some stuff and like, you know, if they wanted to kind of, uh, make the keynote longer.

00:51:28   But I think they really wanted to just do what they wanted to do and keep it as, as like slim as possible.

00:51:34   Yeah.

00:51:35   The operating system quality is at a level that they really want to shout about, right?

00:51:40   Like I, I, I got that sense talking to people at Apple last week.

00:51:44   They are very proud of the system and also the systems right now.

00:51:49   And they seem excited about it.

00:51:51   And also the response to Siri AI has been very positive and they want people in the media to use it.

00:52:00   Like, yeah, I got the sense of like, like, Hey, you know, why don't you try beta one?

00:52:04   And like, in a way that I'm not sure that really gets across as much, but they seem very keen, very keen for people to try it.

00:52:14   This feels like a very different company to the last two WWDCs where 24, they were kind of on the back foot because it seemed like they had to get some things together quickly.

00:52:23   25, they started with an apology.

00:52:26   And now in 26, I think they've got their ducks in the room.

00:52:30   Yeah.

00:52:31   Real attitude adjustment, a bunch of changes in personnel.

00:52:34   I think that all helps.

00:52:35   Like, look, I don't know if I said this last week, but like the, the thing I talk about, about how when you're riding high, there's no reason to change.

00:52:47   Like, if you're, if you're succeeding at everything and you think there's, and somebody comes to you and says, well, there's this one area where we're not doing as well as we could.

00:52:55   There's almost a, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

00:52:58   It's like, listen, we'll look, we're on a roll.

00:52:59   Let's just keep doing what we're doing.

00:53:01   And once you have a moment where you hit a bump, where, you know, something happens that's bad, you finally get an opportunity to revisit and question and have open the conversation about what we could do differently.

00:53:14   And Apple has been on such a role as a business for so long that it feels like it really took them, you know, a punch in the gut, like 24 failing.

00:53:27   And for them to actually say, you know, we need to make changes.

00:53:33   People need to go.

00:53:34   New people are going to be put in.

00:53:35   We're going to change the structure.

00:53:36   We're going to change our priorities.

00:53:38   It's a great opportunity to make something positive out of a negative situation.

00:53:42   Yep.

00:53:42   I also had another theory on why parental controls took up so much time.

00:53:47   So the screen time stuff and the parental control stuff has apparently been broken for a long time.

00:53:54   I know screen time's been broken for a really long time.

00:53:57   Basically, since it shipped, you know, I would often get like 24 hour screen time days because a web page on a Mac, for some reason, was counting as 24 hours in complete use.

00:54:08   And then also, you know, I said this to you, but somebody wrote in like a week before the keynote and was like, if you speak to anyone at Apple this next week, please ask them to fix parental controls because they're so broken.

00:54:20   And it seems like, you know, people that are using this stuff, they've been having issues with it.

00:54:26   So in their year of wanting to improve OS stuff, I would assume they realized, similarly to Siri, the only way to fix the bugs in these features was to start over again with the underlying architecture, which turned into a big job.

00:54:41   So I figure this maybe was one of the things that got the most complete reworking.

00:54:47   So then they just kind of, at that point, was like, you know what, let's go all the way, right?

00:54:52   Let's start consulting people, making some points.

00:54:55   We're going to have a point of view and a stand on this now.

00:54:58   And then it kind of just balloons to being in the keynote.

00:55:01   To combine also the government issues around this and realizing, I wonder if they had a moment where they realized governments were going to ask things and screen time was totally broken.

00:55:11   Yeah.

00:55:12   And they're like, we can't even comply because our feature doesn't work right.

00:55:16   And they have no good answer for why it doesn't work, you know?

00:55:19   Yeah, you could argue that this portion of the keynote was very much just like the Apple intelligence portion, where it was, we actually have to make good on a promise that we kind of failed to deliver on.

00:55:31   But Apple's never going to say, we're sorry, we know screen time has been busted and we fixed it.

00:55:36   They're going to say, hey, we have a new focus and some great new features in screen time that we're even calling, not even mentioning the word screen time because it's so embarrassing, which I thought was also kind of funny.

00:55:45   Yeah.

00:55:46   Yeah, yeah.

00:55:47   Oh, this is a little tangential, but I wanted to mention, I talked to somebody who used to work with John Gianandrea.

00:55:53   Okay.

00:55:54   And I just wanted to say that I got confirmation from them that our theory that he was always a more academic, big thinking kind of guy who was about research and development.

00:56:11   And that he was the wrong person to be in a suddenly having to rapidly iterate and ship products to customers role.

00:56:23   That when Apple hired him, he was hired as a deep thinker about AI development.

00:56:28   Then he got turned into a product manager.

00:56:30   That he was fundamentally miscast in the role of shipping products to customers at Apple, which Apple suddenly found itself in.

00:56:39   And I just thought that was kind of funny that we were extrapolating all of that.

00:56:44   But I talked to somebody who used to work with JG and he was like, oh, yeah, that's that.

00:56:48   Yeah.

00:56:48   He was very much kind of academic guy.

00:56:51   Which really would show that Apple leadership failed him, right?

00:56:54   They hired him for a certain thing.

00:56:55   He was doing that work.

00:56:57   And then they turn around and say, no, you have to lead a product walk.

00:57:00   And it's like, maybe somebody else should do that part.

00:57:02   And build some features that are not the features that you like or are interested in building.

00:57:07   And, you know, you may be poo-pooed.

00:57:09   And now they're the ones that are the most important.

00:57:11   Anyway, there's a new head of AI and ML now who also came from Google and worked on Gemini.

00:57:15   And I imagine that that guy is more, I forget his name, but he was on stage at the Tech Talk.

00:57:22   So Amar Sabramania.

00:57:24   Yeah.

00:57:25   I would imagine that he came in well aware of the focus.

00:57:29   He was a very good presenter.

00:57:30   The focus.

00:57:31   He was.

00:57:31   Yeah, that was a great crew up there on stage.

00:57:34   That was a really great set of people explaining what their strategy was.

00:57:38   So, yeah.

00:57:39   Obviously, we all took great pictures sitting right behind the two CEOs.

00:57:43   Speaking of which, actually, I wanted to just point people to something Federico wrote just because it's so beautiful.

00:57:49   So Federico wrote an article.

00:57:52   Me and you both called it an essay in the links that we – because it was much more of an essay on Mac Stories called Between Seasons.

00:57:59   It's just really, really, really good.

00:58:01   Like a reflection on where Apple is and also where Federico is in his career.

00:58:06   It's really worth reading.

00:58:08   So I'll put that in the show notes.

00:58:09   Yeah, he was reflecting on his 10 years covering WWDC, which I thought was, like, that's very impressive.

00:58:17   And also, it was 30 for me.

00:58:18   Yeah.

00:58:19   Yeah.

00:58:19   Yeah.

00:58:20   Let's not even talk about that.

00:58:21   We often say you're like three Federicos.

00:58:23   We do say that.

00:58:24   Yeah.

00:58:25   So it's good that you're, you know, you put the numbers.

00:58:27   Yes, it's the try Federico theorem.

00:58:29   There's also – I want to talk about – I want to get into the details and talk about some of our experiences.

00:58:35   But I do want to note there is some drama brewing about the Apple, the EU, and the DMA all over again.

00:58:41   I want to try and get into that maybe next week because just in reading this morning, it's like, oh, there's like 17 different points of view on this one.

00:58:50   And so I'm hoping that maybe if we give it a few more days, maybe it will become a bit clearer.

00:58:56   But I also do want to dig into it.

00:58:59   So hopefully next week, some point in the next couple of weeks, we'll get into this a bit more.

00:59:04   But it's more than we have time for in today's episode, I think.

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01:00:58   It's time for the details.

01:01:01   It has returned, everybody.

01:01:05   We're happy to have it back.

01:01:06   Jason, what betas are you running?

01:01:09   And on what devices?

01:01:11   Oh, I am currently running, I have a, I have a loaner MacBook Pro that is running Golden Gate.

01:01:22   I have a loaner iPhone Air that is running 27.

01:01:26   And the Vision Pro loaner, actually, an M5, is running 27.

01:01:33   And I don't have it on an iPad yet.

01:01:35   However, hearing all the positive response, you know, I'm starting to already get the, you know, get the itch to use this with real hardware that I actually rely on.

01:01:47   I had the realization the other day that I am currently not, I've been planning on doing something with it, but I haven't put those plans into effect yet.

01:01:57   I still have my M1 Mac Studio just sitting unplugged, and I thought, that may give me the strength to update to Golden Gate on my Mac.

01:02:08   Yeah.

01:02:09   Because if I need to record podcasts, and something is bad in a beta, I can always, I can use that for the podcast side of it while living with the beta.

01:02:21   So that's where I am, is I have not used them very much.

01:02:24   I spent time doing some Siri stuff on that iPhone, because the iPhone has all my data on it.

01:02:30   It's a migrated version of my other phone from last fall, so it is not up to date like my main phone, but it's got most of my data on it, so it was usable.

01:02:41   So that's where I am.

01:02:43   It's early days yet.

01:02:43   What do you have?

01:02:45   Where are you?

01:02:45   The only beta that I'm running right now is iOS on my iPhone.

01:02:51   So I put beta 1 on my 17 Pro.

01:02:56   I did it a day that I got home.

01:02:58   I did not want to do it before I left, just in case of disaster.

01:03:02   Yeah.

01:03:03   And this is, I have never, I don't think I have ever done this.

01:03:09   I don't think I have ever put beta 1 on my iPhone before.

01:03:12   I usually wait to about 3, but I was hearing people over the few days, you know, like, talking about the beta, feeling pretty strong, and I realized I really wanted to try out Siri AI, and realized, you know, if I'm going to do this, it has to be on a device that I'm using every day that's got all my stuff on it.

01:03:35   And I was thinking, well, I could put it on my iPad, but I don't have my iPad with me all the time, and I want to get into the habit of thinking of and asking questions of it.

01:03:44   So it's like, the answer for all of this is I have to put it on my iPhone.

01:03:48   I've been very happy that I have, honestly.

01:03:51   I've found the beta to be very strong.

01:03:53   I've not found an app that isn't working.

01:03:55   Overall, battery life feels as good.

01:03:59   My phone's been getting hot, but it's also doing that indexing, which apparently I've heard can last, like, weeks, depending on how much stuff you have on your phone, and maybe in your iCloud.

01:04:10   I don't know what exactly it's indexing.

01:04:12   It took about 24 hours for the indexing thing to show up for me.

01:04:16   I also had to do a bunch of tweaking to get Siri AI to show up.

01:04:20   I don't know if I needed to do any of these things, but I did them, like setting my region to America and doing that kind of stuff.

01:04:27   I think it kind of helped kick it all into gear, so don't ask for a tutorial because I don't know how to do it.

01:04:32   But I've been spending a lot of time using Siri AI, and this has been for different types of things.

01:04:40   So I've just been asking some questions just to see what the answers would be like, right?

01:04:45   Like, what does Jason need from me?

01:04:47   And it will go and tell me.

01:04:48   I asked it, like, what do I need to catch up on right now?

01:04:52   And it said, you've got these messages, and you've got these two emails.

01:04:55   They weren't the most recent emails, but they were the ones that it deemed most important.

01:05:00   And one of the emails that it gave me was a contract, like a sponsor contract.

01:05:05   And I said, okay, tell me more about that contract and compare it to the last three deals.

01:05:12   And it went through, found the last three contracts over the last year, put them in a table, and then gave me a summary about how the budgets have changed over that period of time.

01:05:23   This was like maybe the second thing I did.

01:05:25   And I was like, oh my God, it's doing it!

01:05:29   And it's not perfect yet, and maybe never will be.

01:05:34   Like, earlier today, I asked it to find me a message that I knew had been sent a couple of years ago, but couldn't exactly remember the details of it.

01:05:42   It couldn't find it.

01:05:44   But I found it by searching manually, unbelievably, in the Messages app.

01:05:48   It's still indexing, so I don't want to pass fault judgment, right?

01:05:52   So, like, I'm waiting until that's done before I say, like, you can really, like, say, like, one way or another how good it is at mining that personal context.

01:06:00   But it's doing it, and it's doing it well.

01:06:03   Like, another example of a thing, you know, I know that Adena sends me shopping lists sometimes.

01:06:08   And so I was like, well, let me just see if it can do this.

01:06:11   And I said, find the last shopping list that Adena sent me.

01:06:14   And it did.

01:06:15   And then I said, add all those to reminders.

01:06:17   And it did.

01:06:17   It put them all in as individual items in my grocery list.

01:06:20   Yesterday, Adena sent me three iMessages that were a plan for the day.

01:06:24   So she took the day out because, you know, she's looked after the baby for a week.

01:06:30   So it's like, you go take the day, but just let me know some things that you want me to do.

01:06:34   Because taking a week away from a baby of this age, she's a different baby now.

01:06:40   She has completely different needs.

01:06:42   And so it's like, if you have things you want me to do at certain times in a day, you let me know what they are.

01:06:46   She sent me three iMessages, right, separate iMessages of things.

01:06:49   And I just said to Siri AI, grab the three most recent iMessages from Adena, add them to an Apple note for me.

01:06:57   And it did.

01:06:58   And then I was like, can you take these bullets and turn them into checklists?

01:07:02   And it said, I can't do that.

01:07:04   But let me tell you how to do it.

01:07:06   And I thought that was actually pretty good.

01:07:08   Like, for whatever reason, it couldn't turn a bullet list to a checklist.

01:07:12   But it said, just select all the text and just hit the little icon.

01:07:16   You know, they explained the process of turning it from one to the other.

01:07:20   And I was like, hey, I like that.

01:07:22   If you can't do it, tell me how to do it.

01:07:24   You know?

01:07:24   So I thought that was pretty good.

01:07:26   The first thing I tried was something it has never been able to do.

01:07:31   Siri has never done this for me.

01:07:32   I said, what is the time in Cupertino right now?

01:07:36   And it gave me the accurate answer.

01:07:39   This is when I'm in London.

01:07:40   And I asked.

01:07:40   And then I said, and what's the weather?

01:07:43   And it did it.

01:07:44   It gave me, it's like, did it correctly.

01:07:46   It's like, these are just simple things.

01:07:47   And it just does them.

01:07:49   Yeah.

01:07:51   So I've been very happy.

01:07:52   But also, the world knowledge queries are really good as well.

01:07:57   Like, stuff that's not to do with my personal context at all.

01:08:00   I'm just asking it questions.

01:08:02   I'm asking it questions about network attached storage,

01:08:06   because I'm back into that world again,

01:08:07   where I'm realizing that I now have a whole set of new needs

01:08:12   that I didn't have the last time that I looked into the network attached storage world,

01:08:16   which was only a couple of months ago.

01:08:18   But now, Jason, I'm about to hit the max of my four terabyte Dropbox.

01:08:24   Yeah.

01:08:25   And I can't increase it.

01:08:27   Yeah.

01:08:28   I think, I still believe what you might want to do is just get a RAID or something

01:08:32   and attach it to that Mac mini instead of a mass.

01:08:35   This is what I'm, well, I'm going to do something, right?

01:08:38   But you need storage at the studio.

01:08:41   I was asking Siri AI, like, what does it think?

01:08:43   And it was basically the experience, a lot of the experiences I've had

01:08:47   are as good as any chatbot experience I've had.

01:08:51   Yeah.

01:08:51   No, I see what's happening.

01:08:52   I mean, you don't need my advice.

01:08:53   You've got your new friend to give you that advice.

01:08:55   I mean, yeah.

01:08:57   Yeah.

01:08:57   I have my AI now.

01:08:58   What do I need from you, Mike?

01:09:00   I need you to need me.

01:09:03   Oh, God.

01:09:04   That's what I need.

01:09:04   Don't put me aside for Siri AI.

01:09:07   Please.

01:09:08   I'll try not to.

01:09:08   Please.

01:09:08   I'll try not to.

01:09:09   I beg you.

01:09:09   Well, okay.

01:09:12   I'm currently considering a Synology.

01:09:16   One of the key reasons for this is like, at first, I was like, oh, I might just get like

01:09:21   a RAID or just some kind of driving closure, but I need to be able to share files with other

01:09:28   people directly.

01:09:30   Yeah.

01:09:31   And so I don't think something that is just like drives attached to my Mac is going to

01:09:39   easily let me do that.

01:09:40   Right.

01:09:41   Whereas Synology has got some sharing stuff built into it.

01:09:45   You would have to find some sort of app.

01:09:46   I'm sure there's some utility or something.

01:09:48   Synology has this stuff.

01:09:49   Yeah.

01:09:49   I've been looking into it.

01:09:50   Synology has it all.

01:09:50   It has these things.

01:09:51   And so it's like, ah.

01:09:52   So this is, I'm dealing, this is like a whole separate topic.

01:09:56   Yeah, yeah.

01:09:57   But I've been asking Siri AI.

01:09:59   And interestingly, like I also had asked ChatGPT about this a couple of weeks ago.

01:10:05   And Siri AI gave me different recommendations.

01:10:08   And I actually think they were better.

01:10:10   Like I gave it, I've been doing this thing where I've been copying requests that I've given

01:10:15   to other chatbots and asking them to Siri.

01:10:17   And it doesn't, they don't give the same answer because these systems never do.

01:10:21   But I have been consistently impressed with the answers that it is giving me.

01:10:26   So I don't know, man.

01:10:30   Like I think, I think this might, I think they've done it.

01:10:34   I think they've made a good system.

01:10:36   And all of this is actually, I had a shower thought.

01:10:39   I actually think in the end, Siri AI is a good name.

01:10:44   Like it's always been this question of, should they rebrand Siri?

01:10:48   Should they come up with something else, et cetera, et cetera.

01:10:51   And one of the reasons that we said like, don't is because they've built brand awareness, right?

01:10:56   People know what Siri is.

01:10:57   So now they are benefiting from that.

01:11:00   And by putting AI at the end, they are saying this is smart.

01:11:03   Like that's what they're trying to say to the world.

01:11:05   Like Siri is smart now.

01:11:08   And I think that this name kind of gives that off, especially because in my experience so

01:11:14   far over the last four or five days or whatever, it is.

01:11:20   And so I think it's gonna, I think it might work out for them.

01:11:23   Like I've been very impressed.

01:11:24   I'm going to continue using it.

01:11:26   I am increasingly in, I'm going to put a link in the show notes to Stephen Robles' video.

01:11:32   He did a video kind of showing off a bunch of things that he had done.

01:11:36   And so you can see kind of more of this stuff in action.

01:11:39   He did a really good job with that.

01:11:40   I think it's, I think it's good.

01:11:43   I think it's good.

01:11:44   By the way, we were talking about indexing.

01:11:46   Yeah.

01:11:47   If we, if you haven't heard this advice, here's the advice.

01:11:50   If you're not ready to go to the betas yet for 27, go to the 26.6 beta.

01:11:55   It's available as a public beta.

01:11:56   26.6 isn't out yet, but word on the street is the 26.6 starts the indexing process in the

01:12:03   background.

01:12:03   That's why they said to do that then.

01:12:05   Okay.

01:12:05   Yeah.

01:12:05   That's the, that's the word on the street, which is that Apple very cleverly is going

01:12:11   to push 26.6 out to people this summer and their devices are going to be able to very

01:12:15   slowly do the initial spotlight index for 27 when you don't have 27 so that when you get

01:12:21   27, the index is there and you don't have to wait, which is super smart, super clever.

01:12:26   Because, you know, I'm, I'm expecting this is going to take a really long time.

01:12:32   And it's a very intense re-indexing and they have to start from scratch because it's a new spotlight

01:12:36   and all of that.

01:12:37   And so it sounds like they're priming the indexer in 26.6, which is super, super clever.

01:12:45   Also my, my one moment of, of Siri AI kind of like appreciation.

01:12:52   I do this silly podcast with David Lohr and Philip Michaels where we watch old episodes

01:12:57   of Magnum PI and we do it.

01:12:59   It's, it's like summer of fun in a, it's summer of Magnum instead.

01:13:02   We just have fun, TV show, detectives, 80s, Hawaii, it's great.

01:13:07   And what we do is we record two at a time and at the end of our recording, we have to decide

01:13:14   what the next two episodes are.

01:13:15   Yeah.

01:13:15   And we have a little group chat and it goes way back and we, you know, throw other silly

01:13:20   stuff in there too.

01:13:22   And I was thinking I need to watch one of those too.

01:13:27   I need to do my homework.

01:13:28   And I was like, ah, this is a thing I do all the time.

01:13:31   I do all the time.

01:13:31   I switch over to the Magnum podcast, uh, text chat and scroll back until I can find the episodes

01:13:37   that we're doing.

01:13:38   And I said, Siri AI, what are the next two episodes of Magnum podcast that we're doing?

01:13:44   And it said, you're doing this episode, which is season three, episode 14.

01:13:48   And this episode, which is season seven, episode eight.

01:13:52   And it was totally right.

01:13:53   And I was like, ah, right.

01:13:55   Like it, it knew enough to do the right search, to find the right information, to give me the

01:14:00   answer without me having to go and do a thing I could do, but like go to messages, find that

01:14:06   thread, scroll and look at all the text in the thread until I found the one where I said,

01:14:10   this is what we're doing.

01:14:11   And that was my moment of like, okay, this is something this, I like this.

01:14:16   I, you know, my, my challenge is going to be third party apps.

01:14:21   Like is fantastical going to supply its calendars to spotlight or am I going to have to add all

01:14:28   my calendars to calendar?

01:14:30   Is MimeStream gonna, is there a way for MimeStream to even offer search stuff in spotlight or is, can it not?

01:14:40   And if it can't, does that mean I also just need to run mail in parallel so that, that, uh, Siri AI knows about my email?

01:14:48   I don't, I don't know the answers to all of those questions.

01:14:51   These are things that we're going to have to figure out this summer, but, um, but it, it, right now it looks like this feature is useful enough that if I have to build parallel workflows just for spotlight, to feed spotlight information, I will, if the benefits are like this.

01:15:06   One of the features that is only coming to the new phones, because, so the, the newest phones, the 12 gigabyte of Ram phones, they get access to a, I think a bigger model, right?

01:15:18   Like there are a couple of different model sizes.

01:15:21   Um, I think it's been a bit confusing, but I know one of the features that they're, that the newer phones are getting is a new dictation system.

01:15:32   And it's in beta one, but you have to enable it explicitly and it's in a weird place.

01:15:38   It's in the keyboard settings.

01:15:40   It's called advanced dictation preview.

01:15:42   I have had very good experiences with this system so far.

01:15:47   I am able to talk faster and more naturally.

01:15:50   I'm not speaking like I'm, like I'm dictating.

01:15:53   Like if I, if I tried to dictate a message, I talk very carefully, you know, like it kind of slowed down and enunciate,

01:16:01   but I'm able to speak way more fluidly and it sent, and it's doing a much, much better job.

01:16:07   So I've been impressed with that too.

01:16:09   I am incredibly unsure about the new photos features.

01:16:14   So they work really well, which I think is what makes me so uncomfortable about them.

01:16:22   You know, like I've done a few of the extending things and it just adds in stuff, obviously, that's not there.

01:16:29   Right.

01:16:30   So I took a picture of me at Apple Park and I extended it and it put me in shorts and I wasn't wearing shorts.

01:16:36   I was wearing chinos that day.

01:16:39   I took a picture of Adina and it cut her arm off and I extended it and it put her arm in and gave her a round analog watch, which is not a thing that she owns.

01:16:51   And it's like, of course, it's going to do this because what else is it going to do?

01:16:55   But it does it really well.

01:16:58   And so then it's like, it needs to do it well if it's going to do it.

01:17:03   But the fact that it does it well, I think, makes it much more complicated.

01:17:08   The way I've been thinking about it is extend is really cool.

01:17:13   But the further you extend, the more problem I have with it.

01:17:18   Yes.

01:17:19   Just because the more opportunity there is for kind of confabulation.

01:17:22   I think it's very different.

01:17:24   What you said, like if you're extending somebody's pants and it turns out they're wearing shorts, even though they weren't.

01:17:33   You know, if the context doesn't matter, then maybe it doesn't matter.

01:17:38   But you can't rely on that as the memory of what actually happened because it didn't actually happen.

01:17:42   So I just kept thinking this would be a great feature to use judiciously.

01:17:47   You know, use it judiciously.

01:17:49   You know, the further out you go, the weirder it's going to get.

01:17:53   And so just be aware of that.

01:17:55   But if I want to give a photo more headroom to use it as a lock screen.

01:18:00   Or I do a lot of stuff where it's I needed a little bit wider to put it on six colors and it's just not quite wide enough.

01:18:08   Or the example Apple gave is when you rotate a photo, you have to crop it because there's a portion.

01:18:14   There's a little wedge that has been revealed in the rotation, top and bottom, that don't have anything in them.

01:18:21   So then it snaps closed and now your photo is not as big as it was.

01:18:26   And you can generatively fill those little wedges now and keep your photo the same size.

01:18:34   Like, this is all good.

01:18:36   I just keep coming back to the fact that, like, you could really overdo it.

01:18:40   Yes.

01:18:41   And that's true, it's true of cleanup as well.

01:18:43   Like, you know, this is one of those things, just because we give you these tools, you still need to think about how you want to use them and what you get out of it.

01:18:49   Which is not, you know, not saying these tools are bad.

01:18:52   It's saying just you need to think about it.

01:18:55   I did have a really good conversation with a photographer.

01:18:59   I think you, I don't know if you were there for that conversation or not.

01:19:03   I think maybe you were.

01:19:04   I was.

01:19:04   At WWDC.

01:19:05   I don't know if we should say who it was because he was talking to us privately, but a photographer who pointed out that the challenge with the spatial reframe is when you're using the spatial photos in Vision Pro, you know, there's a base photo that's real and then you're just kind of moving your head.

01:19:23   But with spatial reframe, you're moving your head essentially to do the low resolution sort of like set.

01:19:30   And then you press the button and it goes out to private cloud compute and renders the image for you.

01:19:36   And as a result, what you're getting back is based on the original photo, but it's not quite the original photo.

01:19:43   And he pointed out like faces don't always look right.

01:19:49   Like it's okay as a kind of like a cheap parallax effect, but when you're actually doing a full render, it can look uncanny because you're taking a, also you're taking a fairly rudimentary depth map.

01:20:02   That's been created by machine learning on your device, which is how they do the spatial stuff.

01:20:07   And it's very impressive as a trick, but like that depth map is not the contours of that face.

01:20:13   I think, I think it's lower resolution than that.

01:20:15   And then it's moving the face and then it's re-rendering it.

01:20:18   And it's again, it's using the pixels that were there, but it has to generate new ones in order to fill it in.

01:20:23   And I can't disagree.

01:20:25   It didn't look quite right.

01:20:28   No.

01:20:28   No, I feel like these features, they're good for utility, but bad for memories.

01:20:35   And then it's like, what's the picture for in the first place?

01:20:39   And so like, you know, you, you gave some examples of some great utility things, right?

01:20:43   You, you want your lock screen.

01:20:45   So you, you know, you extend it up and a tree appears that wasn't there or the top part of an airplane.

01:20:50   You know, you're, you're on an airplane and now like the roof of the airplane is there.

01:20:54   It's like an image that I did.

01:20:55   Or you want a bit of extra space for a podcast coverup for an image.

01:20:59   Cause it's not square.

01:21:00   It's, it's a rectangular image or, or whatever.

01:21:02   And you're, you know, you're doing this stuff for utility and that's great.

01:21:05   You're extending backgrounds and stuff.

01:21:07   But anytime that, that important things, i.e. people, pets, all this kind of stuff are any way involved in this, you've broken the memory of it.

01:21:17   Like it, now it doesn't feel right.

01:21:19   It doesn't look like the person.

01:21:21   And it's like, so if I do one of these things and then save this effect and then look back in two years time, now I've altered the memory of that situation.

01:21:30   And I think at that point, that's not a good use of an image.

01:21:33   So speaking of image generation, Genmoji is really good.

01:21:38   Oh, I haven't tried it.

01:21:39   That's great.

01:21:40   I love Genmoji.

01:21:41   The output is good and the system is way better.

01:21:43   So now, well, one thing it does is make suggestions when you send messages.

01:21:49   So I sent a message today to someone and it recommended, like, do you want to make a Genmoji of this phrase?

01:21:56   And I did it and it was a good Genmoji.

01:21:58   But when you go to create your own, the UI is quite different now.

01:22:03   You give it a prompt, essentially, and it creates one.

01:22:07   And it doesn't do that thing where you swipe through to get others.

01:22:10   It says, describe a change.

01:22:12   And so if you want something to change, you describe that change.

01:22:16   So that is a much, that is a better system, I think, than what they were doing before, where it would only take a couple of words or a couple of emoji or whatever.

01:22:25   I have combined two emoji and it looked terrible.

01:22:28   So, like, it still has the ability to look terrible.

01:22:30   But the quality of the images is better, even if the output isn't always great.

01:22:34   It can also take images and create Genmoji of images.

01:22:41   And it also suggests you prompt it with different styles.

01:22:45   Like, I gave it an image of me and you at WWDC and it said, why don't you ask for pixel art?

01:22:53   And so I made what I think is a very good pixel art version of me and you.

01:22:59   And in the clothing that we were wearing, but it gave us emoji heads, which is an odd choice, but that's what it did.

01:23:05   But I've done other ones where it didn't give emoji.

01:23:07   Anyway, it's still doing its thing, right?

01:23:09   It's still, like, imagining things.

01:23:11   But this version of Genmoji is better than the version that came before.

01:23:17   And also, you can do more with it and the UI makes more sense.

01:23:20   So, yeah, I think that is better.

01:23:24   That's great.

01:23:25   I wanted to mention, because we got some feedback about this, our dislike of image playgrounds.

01:23:29   Yeah.

01:23:30   And, you know, somebody called us Luddites for not, like, just for criticizing image playgrounds.

01:23:36   It's like, just get with the program.

01:23:37   It's here.

01:23:38   It's great.

01:23:38   It's all settled.

01:23:39   And I just wanted to say, like, somebody sent me an image that they used and they said they'd never used image playgrounds before and they used it on the beta.

01:23:46   And it was, like, line art for, like, an invitation for a home backyard barbecue with, like, a pig and, like, text in it.

01:23:54   And, like, I don't really have a problem with it.

01:23:56   A thing that, you know, is just, I need some simple imagery here and it's just kind of text in a shape and all that.

01:24:04   It's like, as a utility, I think that's perfectly reasonable.

01:24:08   My biggest issue is that Apple is even using as examples the idea that you're taking a friend's image without consent and posing them somewhere.

01:24:18   Yeah.

01:24:18   And I don't like it.

01:24:19   I don't like the idea of using people's images without their consent.

01:24:21   I don't think to completely glide over it and be like, yeah, here's your friend and you're going to put him in a chef's outfit and put him baking a cake.

01:24:30   Like, if a friend of mine did that and then sent that to me, I'd be like, that's really kind of gross.

01:24:37   And reasonable people can differ, but I don't like the idea that, like, you're just making images of me and then sending them around and it's not me.

01:24:43   I don't love that.

01:24:45   There are also lots of other issues involving, like, training and are they knocking off artists' styles so that you can replace the artists and not use the artists and not pay the artists, but we've stolen all of their work and used it to train.

01:24:58   I don't know what the training set is here, but I'm just saying it can be an issue.

01:25:03   And so I would just say, you know, officially for the record, we don't like it, but there are aspects of it that I think are actually fine and there are aspects of it that I think are kind of gross.

01:25:14   And there's plenty of room for debate, disagreement, but what I would say is certain is that it isn't just a settled issue that this is fine and that anybody who has issues with Image Playground is just fighting against the tide and a Luddite

01:25:31   and opposed to a settled problem because it is not settled.

01:25:36   I don't know what world that person is in, but in the world of people that I'm around, including a lot of creative people, it is most definitely not a settled issue.

01:25:45   And personally, the one that bugs me the most is the consent issue.

01:25:50   It's like using somebody else's image, even if they're your friend, like, it doesn't matter.

01:25:54   Like, you are appropriating their face for your art project, and I don't like it.

01:26:01   It makes me really uncomfortable.

01:26:02   Yeah.

01:26:03   While we were talking, I just sent you a Genmoji pixel art version of yourself.

01:26:08   So that's something for you to have.

01:26:11   I think that these are better, though, where you're creating these, like, things that aren't supposed to look like a person if you're going to do it.

01:26:19   But I still stand by the, like, you shouldn't be picking people from images and creating, like, brand new things.

01:26:28   So, like, one of the things in Genmoji now, the thing that I just did is I gave it an image that I had of you, and it made a version of that image.

01:26:36   I don't like that, but what I really don't like is what you were talking about, which is we're going to take someone's face, and you're going to create them in an environment that they were never in.

01:26:45   Like, you know, we do.

01:26:47   Photorealistic.

01:26:48   Because we all hate this so much, we also do this to each other to troll each other.

01:26:53   And so the day after the keynote, Stephen sent me an image of myself juggling.

01:26:58   It's like, oh, it's so bad.

01:27:01   And, like, I know why we do it, and we did it two years ago, and I know it's going to continue to happen, but I'm just going to be honest.

01:27:09   I don't even like those.

01:27:11   No.

01:27:12   I don't even like those.

01:27:14   Even those make me uncomfortable, and I think that's why we're doing it to each other.

01:27:17   But, like, somebody sends me a photorealistic generated image of me, and I am repelled by it, right?

01:27:23   Like, no, I don't know.

01:27:24   I mean, that's exactly why we make them and send them to each other.

01:27:27   But, like, doesn't that say that maybe this isn't right if, like, the response people are having to the image tools that you're giving them is that they feel uncomfortable by it?

01:27:37   Like, not great, you know?

01:27:39   Yeah, I really don't like it.

01:27:41   I don't like, I now like it even less because they've decided photorealism is where they want to go, you know?

01:27:49   Like, I would prefer it, if they're going to do this, make it full cartoon, right?

01:27:55   Like, let's make cartoons.

01:27:57   Not even the Memoji things that are trying to look like people in a little bit.

01:28:01   Actually, no.

01:28:02   More Memoji than the weird thing in the middle that they had before, right?

01:28:07   Right.

01:28:07   The Pixar characters or whatever.

01:28:10   Yeah.

01:28:10   Look, and I can see the utility of it, and, like, I get it, and people are going to do it, but I don't love it, and I don't love that Apple enables it and makes it very easy and demos it and doesn't seem to even give consideration to the fact that taking your friend's image and putting him in different clothes doing a thing and then mailing it to all of your friends might be problematic in some way.

01:28:36   Like, the example that they gave in the keynote, right, I think, or an example that was given was, like, here, you know, it's Frank's birthday party and Frank likes to bake.

01:28:46   So let's make an image of Frank baking.

01:28:50   It's like, if Frank likes to bake that much, you probably have a photo of Frank.

01:28:54   Just use the photo of Frank on the flyer or whatever.

01:28:58   Are you going to give an invitation you're giving to your friends?

01:29:00   I don't know.

01:29:01   It's just not for me.

01:29:02   I only ever use image playgrounds to make fun of my friends directly to them, and I just don't think that is a good use of software.

01:29:13   Yeah.

01:29:14   Right?

01:29:14   Because the reason we do it is because it's not good.

01:29:18   Like, now it's, like, quote, unquote, good, but not right, I would say.

01:29:25   A couple of extra parts I want to mention.

01:29:28   I want to finish on some highs.

01:29:29   A few little things that I've been very pleased about.

01:29:33   These are the little details in the details.

01:29:34   If you copy a screenshot to your clipboard and go to iMessage, a button pops up on the top of the keyboard that says paste from screenshots.

01:29:44   Amazing.

01:29:44   So, because that's what you're usually doing, at least for me, I'm usually taking a screenshot and sending it to someone, and it knows that.

01:29:52   You now have the ability to set independent volume levels for ringtones and alarms.

01:29:58   For some reason that I will never understand, every few weeks, my ringtone level gets set to zero, and so my alarm doesn't make any noise.

01:30:10   I've never understood what I'm doing.

01:30:11   I don't have change of buttons turned on.

01:30:14   I don't know what is going on in there, but now you can set these things independently, which I think is awesome.

01:30:18   And in 26, they made the Apple Pay card selector, when paying online, significantly worse.

01:30:28   And they kind of, there used to be a button that you could tap to change cards, and you can still do that, but they moved where the button went, and it stopped making any sense.

01:30:38   The UI now is amazing.

01:30:40   It's a big image of the card that you're using, and you have a big button that you can tap.

01:30:48   It shows you a visual of all of the cards that you have in your Apple Pay, and you can select any of them.

01:30:54   And when you first open Apple Pay, it shows you the card that you selected, but then has the other ones kind of stacked behind it, like CoverFlow, and they disappear.

01:31:03   So you can immediately know, I can change my card, and then it's incredibly clear for which card you're going to use.

01:31:10   Love it.

01:31:11   That was a big annoyance of mine that they fixed, and they've actually made the UI so much better.

01:31:17   And these are little things I'm noticing throughout the system.

01:31:20   Things that didn't feel right, or were buggy, or whatever, have been fixed, and been made better.

01:31:25   Like, 27 is on one.

01:31:28   Like, it's a good operating system.

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01:33:19   This time for some Ask Upgrade questions.

01:33:23   Jason writes in and says,

01:33:26   Apple has announced that the new, more advanced on-device models for Siri AI for more expressive voices and improved transcription require devices running the most recent silicon with 12 gigabytes of RAM.

01:33:40   It would be disappointing if the base iPhone 18 and maybe iPad mini revision would be locked out of these features.

01:33:47   Do you think this likely means that this year's A20-based processor will also meet the requirements for these features?

01:33:54   I mean, it is a good question.

01:33:57   I'm sure Apple, I mean, look, those features still work.

01:34:01   They're just not as good.

01:34:02   That's the way that they've handled this, right?

01:34:04   Is that there's better, better processors get the better model.

01:34:07   And then, and well, and yeah, it's like in these features exist, but they're not as good.

01:34:12   So you get transcription, but not the really good new transcription.

01:34:15   It's not like the Apple intelligence features where it's like you don't get it.

01:34:20   It's, it's that we are entering a world where we're going to have multiple models and you will get a better model if you've got a more powerful processor.

01:34:28   That's where, that's where we're going.

01:34:30   And this will go into the future where they will have new models that are cutting edge that don't come to older devices.

01:34:35   And it'll be almost like a hardware feature where you'll be like, what do you mean?

01:34:39   It's just a software update.

01:34:41   It's like, yeah, but it's, it's about the hardware.

01:34:43   You don't have the hardware capable of doing this whizzy thing.

01:34:46   So you'll do it worse or it'll go to the cloud or you don't get it.

01:34:50   So I think Apple has a motivation to make new iPhones get these features, but I would also say, I don't feel like it's Apple intelligence where they feel like they have to put it in every single product.

01:35:02   So maybe they would try to get the chip that's running to support it.

01:35:09   But the bottom line is like, I think the chip design precedes the existence of these features, right?

01:35:15   Yeah.

01:35:15   And it's not, it is not like Apple intelligence version one, where it was like, you just get nothing if you don't have the base chip level is there are just certain features that aren't the big ones.

01:35:29   On the cheaper devices, older devices, you just don't get the, the as good to transcription as good of a voice on whatever else features they might use in the future with those models that, that, so I think there's, I think it get, again, gives them some pressure to try and have more devices work with the latest and greatest cool models because it kind of, it raises the bar for new models.

01:35:55   But I don't think it's like a, all hands on deck kind of thing like it was with Apple intelligence.

01:36:01   And I think that there will be new products, there will very likely be new products that come out that just don't support this, right?

01:36:08   That aren't brand new, but just don't support it.

01:36:11   Maybe, you know, the low end iPad doesn't support it.

01:36:14   Maybe the iPad mini doesn't support it.

01:36:16   I don't know.

01:36:17   It depends on what the processor is.

01:36:18   Maybe the MacBook Neo never supports this model because it's just not there.

01:36:24   I don't know.

01:36:26   I, but I, so I think there's a motivation, but I don't think it's enough for them to say future, you know, every product after we make this announcement must support this newer on device model.

01:36:35   I don't think that's practical, but I do think that there's a little bit of pressure like to, to make it work.

01:36:40   If they can, for as many new products as they can, but if they can't, I think they're going to be okay with it because you're not, not getting that feature.

01:36:48   You're just not getting as good a version of it.

01:36:51   Simon says, one of the reported challenges of AI-ing Siri was to add the open world LLM functionality without breaking the more prosaic Siri turn off the kitchen lamp component.

01:37:03   Has Apple addressed this at all when talking about Siri AI?

01:37:07   Do we know yet how successful they have been in integrating the two?

01:37:11   You've provided in our, in our document, they, they put this on stage at the tech talk.

01:37:17   Yeah. So they, they showed us essentially a flow chart of what happens when a request is made and like how it can go down the stack.

01:37:25   And at the very top is something they called system experience, which has inside of it at a box called assistant experience.

01:37:34   And what, what I think they're getting at is when you ask for a thing to the system, it is then starting to decide the, where is this being kicked onto?

01:37:44   And it feels like from what I can remember and what I worked out from this image, essentially, if you request something like that, the system is going to say, Oh, I can just handle this and do it because it's a basic on device thing.

01:37:57   And if you can't, then you start going out to what they called later, the system orchestrator, which then starts to work out how complex of a thing is this?

01:38:06   Is this something that I need on screen awareness for?

01:38:09   Do I need to start querying the spotlight index?

01:38:12   And then do I need to kick it out to the on device models or actually does it need to go to the cloud?

01:38:17   So there's like a bunch of things going on here and it feels like the very, very top level is can I just do this thing?

01:38:26   So set a timer, check the weather, you know, this kind of stuff or turn on the system.

01:38:34   I think it's, I think it is like volumes and timers and a bunch of stuff that's just very simple local requests that need to just happen immediately.

01:38:45   And this is the stuff that they've been doing forever.

01:38:47   And that's how they built it.

01:38:49   Yeah, that's the idea.

01:38:50   Paul asked, did Apple make a mistake to include an AI subscription within the existing iCloud subscription?

01:38:58   Should it have taken the opportunity to create a new subscription service?

01:39:02   Or is there more value from defending the iCloud price point?

01:39:06   I don't think they've got a product here.

01:39:09   I really don't.

01:39:10   Yeah.

01:39:11   I think iCloud Plus is a great example of Apple gating things behind, do you give us money already?

01:39:18   So that there's the money, the features you get, the functionality you get from buying our product.

01:39:24   And then you get a little bit more if you're also paying us on an ongoing basis.

01:39:29   And I just don't see how it needs to be more than that.

01:39:32   That they need to work their business model so that using an iPhone is something you do, you can do freely.

01:39:41   Without adding more subscription.

01:39:43   Like, do you want more Siri AI you have to pay?

01:39:46   I don't think it's a thing they want to do.

01:39:48   And then you want more times of doing image generation or whatever, then iCloud Plus is a nice way to just kind of throw it in the box.

01:39:57   It's like, literally, do we have an ongoing services business relationship with you?

01:40:01   Well, then, that's good enough.

01:40:03   It doesn't preclude them from saying, if you want to buy more, although at this point, they don't really want to even make that a product.

01:40:07   But I like them doing it like this.

01:40:11   I think that this is their system-level way of selling kind of enhanced access to existing customers who are obviously generating more revenue for them.

01:40:21   Which means that it pencils out that the added cost of AI queries will basically be covered.

01:40:28   And then everything else ends up being wrapped in a product, right?

01:40:32   So, like, there's AI query stuff happening in the creative studio.

01:40:38   But that's a different subscription.

01:40:41   But that's a very specific.

01:40:42   It's features happening in apps that you are paying a subscription price for.

01:40:46   So, that's how they handle it there.

01:40:48   I don't think there needs...

01:40:50   I just don't think there's a product here.

01:40:51   I think it is difficult to suggest you should pay...

01:41:00   Like, you should...

01:41:01   There should be a specific plan or subscription available for something that is showing to be a core operating system feature.

01:41:11   Yep.

01:41:11   Yeah, I don't...

01:41:13   I mean, I got some...

01:41:15   iCloud Plus gave me pause.

01:41:17   But I do understand that for features that are above and beyond and have incremental cost, that having it be that way.

01:41:25   But what I like about iCloud Plus, it is the lightest touch.

01:41:28   It's like literally, what?

01:41:30   If you pay 99 cents a month for a little more storage, I think you're iCloud Plus at that point, right?

01:41:35   Yeah.

01:41:36   I don't know.

01:41:36   I mean, you basically have to be giving Apple some money.

01:41:39   And then Apple's like, okay, you're good.

01:41:42   You're good.

01:41:42   And that's the way to do it, I think, for stuff like this.

01:41:46   I wouldn't want them to go down the path of, here are a bunch of features that are in our operating system, but you don't get them until you pay us.

01:41:55   I just...

01:41:56   I'm really reluctant to do that.

01:41:59   Yeah.

01:42:00   I don't even know what iCloud Plus includes because I just do the Apple One thing.

01:42:06   And so it gives you all that.

01:42:08   It's literally...

01:42:08   It's literally if you pay them for something.

01:42:11   So if you pay them for 99 cents a month for 50 gigs of storage, you are iCloud Plus or anything above that.

01:42:18   If you've got more iCloud storage, if you're in the bundles, you've got that too, then you're in.

01:42:26   Then you're in.

01:42:27   Like, basically, it's do you pay Apple for some subscription that includes iCloud in some way?

01:42:34   You're good.

01:42:35   And you get stuff like private relay, custom email addresses, hide my email, and more storage and stuff like that.

01:42:44   Yeah.

01:42:45   Yeah.

01:42:45   And as Zoe points out, I think there are levels of iCloud Plus where you get more.

01:42:51   But they seem to have just gated this as iCloud Plus, which means that, yes, you could pay $1 a month and you would be there.

01:42:58   Well, unless they tier it, right?

01:43:00   So different plans give you certain amounts.

01:43:03   Maybe give you more limits?

01:43:04   Maybe.

01:43:05   But they haven't communicated that and I don't think they're there yet.

01:43:07   Yeah.

01:43:08   Ian says, you've mentioned a few times in prior episodes to look for canaries in the coal mine at WWDC for features that foreshadow future hardware launches.

01:43:18   There's been a lot of talk about how the ability to change the simulator widths of precursor to the folding iPhone.

01:43:24   But there has been little talk, as far as I've seen, about pull-to-refresh being a precursor to a touch MacBook Pro.

01:43:31   So, yes, Safari is getting pulled-to-refresh.

01:43:34   But there is also support for drawing and free-from on the Mac that they say use the trackpad for.

01:43:40   Come on.

01:43:41   As well as touch support for sidecar displays.

01:43:43   The real canary in the coal mine here is sidecar is a feature that lets you use an iPad as a Mac monitor and they had like pencil support in it and stuff so that you could do things like draw in Photoshop and it was like you were using a graphics tablet.

01:43:57   Now they are adding a whole set of APIs where you can add touch support for sidecar to apps, to like AppKit apps, to like Mac apps.

01:44:07   You can add touch support now.

01:44:09   And come on.

01:44:11   Right?

01:44:11   Like for all those sidecar heads out there.

01:44:14   But we know what it is.

01:44:16   That's like really the message that they can't say but that everybody knows is use sidecar as a way to experiment with how touch interactions will work on your Mac when we do a touchscreen MacBook.

01:44:27   We all know it.

01:44:28   This is how they roll it out.

01:44:31   It's nice that they've got that feature that they – it's perfect for this.

01:44:34   Perfect.

01:44:35   But that's very clearly there.

01:44:37   And then like I mentioned earlier in this episode, the 4K cameras thing feels very much like they're going to have a security camera or a doorbell camera.

01:44:49   And that's why they added that.

01:44:50   Because they want it down the road.

01:44:54   If you would like to send us in a question for a future episode of the show, please go to UpgradeFeedback.com.

01:44:59   You can send in your AskUpgrade, your SnowTalk, your feedback, your follow-up, all by going to UpgradeFeedback.com.

01:45:07   Please go and check out our Kickstarter at design.fm.

01:45:10   Stay tuned for our second preview episode on Thursday as we continue the Road to the Apple II series.

01:45:18   Thank you to our members and supporters of Upgrade+.

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01:45:24   You can find us on YouTube by searching for Upgrade Podcast.

01:45:28   I would like to thank our sponsors of this week's episode.

01:45:31   That is Sentry, Decagon, and ExpressVPN.

01:45:33   But most of all, thank you for listening.

01:45:36   Until next time, say goodbye, Jason Snow.

01:45:38   Goodbye, Mike Hurley.

01:45:52   Bye, Mike Hurley.