ATP

00:00:00 ◼   ► Oh, you got that colored bullet, Casey.

00:00:02 ◼   ► Oh, it's so hard.

00:00:03 ◼   ► I didn't have to deal with it.

00:00:03 ◼   ► It's so hard.

00:00:03 ◼   ► You don't appreciate what I do to edit this document.

00:00:05 ◼   ► Now what are you going to do?

00:00:07 ◼   ► Now are you going to style that bullet?

00:00:08 ◼   ► What are you going to do?

00:00:09 ◼   ► Nope.

00:00:09 ◼   ► I'm just going to live with it.

00:00:10 ◼   ► Wait, how do you?

00:00:11 ◼   ► Casey doesn't know.

00:00:12 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:00:12 ◼   ► Neither do I.

00:00:13 ◼   ► You're a Google Docs whiz, John.

00:00:15 ◼   ► I'm not a Google Docs whiz.

00:00:16 ◼   ► What I am is I am a victim of decades of word processing programs that do not make this task easy.

00:00:24 ◼   ► That's what I am.

00:00:27 ◼   ► Hey, so let's go into what I've decided to call immersive inlet.

00:00:31 ◼   ► Let's just cruise right into immersive inlet.

00:00:33 ◼   ► Yeah, you love it.

00:00:35 ◼   ► What?

00:00:35 ◼   ► You love it.

00:00:36 ◼   ► It used to be a corner.

00:00:37 ◼   ► What happened?

00:00:38 ◼   ► No, because everyone uses a corner.

00:00:39 ◼   ► I figured-

00:00:40 ◼   ► You were copying everybody else.

00:00:41 ◼   ► Yes, and now I'm trying to branch out on my own.

00:00:43 ◼   ► Well, in the immersive world, there is no corner.

00:00:46 ◼   ► Well, that is true.

00:00:47 ◼   ► There's no corners in an immersive world, and thus it is an inlet.

00:00:50 ◼   ► We have no boundaries, no attachment to physical spaces whatsoever.

00:00:54 ◼   ► We're just floating.

00:00:56 ◼   ► Except for where the video ends.

00:00:57 ◼   ► Except for-

00:00:58 ◼   ► The fuzzy edge where the video ends, because it's not 360.

00:01:00 ◼   ► Exactly.

00:01:01 ◼   ► All right.

00:01:02 ◼   ► So there is, as we record this, it is Wednesday, the 20th of May, 2026.

00:01:06 ◼   ► On Friday will be the official debut of Real Madrid, The Weight of Greatness, which is a 20-minute documentary about the, I will call it soccer.

00:01:15 ◼   ► You're going to have to deal with it.

00:01:16 ◼   ► Soccer team slash club, Real Madrid, which I presume is based in Spain or something.

00:01:22 ◼   ► I don't even know.

00:01:23 ◼   ► I don't know anything about soccer, but-

00:01:24 ◼   ► Sounds like Ohio.

00:01:25 ◼   ► Yeah, right.

00:01:25 ◼   ► I did watch this 20-minute documentary, and I just wanted to briefly point out that, A, I think it's worth noting whenever there's new immersive stuff, not only because it shows everyone the pace, or lack thereof, of immersive releases on Apple Vision Pro, but for the six of us that do have a Vision Pro, I thought it's worth mentioning for them as well.

00:01:44 ◼   ► And what this is, is like I said, a documentary about Real Madrid.

00:01:47 ◼   ► I was talking, I was speaking with a friend of mine, Justin, who said that this is very kind of timely, because I guess Real Madrid is like imploding at the moment, and this was all filmed, I believe, late 2025.

00:01:56 ◼   ► But they talk about, you know, the team and how important it is and the history behind it.

00:02:02 ◼   ► And a couple of things I wanted to call out as highlights, they did a lot of like moving the camera, but they are getting better at doing it very slowly.

00:02:11 ◼   ► Still gives me a little bit of like, what's happening?

00:02:14 ◼   ► But it's better than it used to be.

00:02:17 ◼   ► Still a lot more cuts than I think they need.

00:02:19 ◼   ► However, there was one time where the ball was like on the right side of my field of view, and it was kicked to the goal, which was on the left side of my field of view.

00:02:27 ◼   ► And rather than whipping the camera around or like cutting to a different view, they just let you do the thing that you can do in a Vision Pro.

00:02:35 ◼   ► I turned my head and watched the ball go by, which sounds silly, but a lot of these immersive things, they're like, cut, cut, cut, cut, cut.

00:02:42 ◼   ► You know, they're all these, I guess, you know, sports directors or editors or what have you that are used to doing that all the time.

00:02:47 ◼   ► They, at one point, they showed what I think was a sped up film, but it was so preposterous.

00:02:55 ◼   ► I almost wonder if it was CGI in the sense of, in the scale of it all.

00:02:59 ◼   ► But what, apparently the stadium for Real Madrid, it's, it has like a turf, all this grass, I almost said turf, the grass, I guess, can get like sucked down into the basement of the stadium.

00:03:13 ◼   ► And the mechanism to do this is ridiculously large.

00:03:17 ◼   ► And they just sit you, I guess, on what I would call as an American football person, the 50-yard line or the midfield or whatever.

00:03:23 ◼   ► And they let you look at this happening at probably like 10x speed.

00:03:26 ◼   ► The scale of this, I cannot verbalize how big this was.

00:03:30 ◼   ► And I think this is like such a great use of immersive video because you can look around and everywhere you look, you're seeing the entire pitch, field, whatever, like rising up what appeared to be like 100 feet, way more than seemed necessary.

00:03:44 ◼   ► Which is why, again, I'm wondering if this was like all faked and I'm just ignorant and don't realize it.

00:03:47 ◼   ► But it was very, very cool.

00:03:50 ◼   ► And I also enjoyed, and they've been doing this more and more in different videos, they showed a bunch of stills.

00:03:55 ◼   ► And so it's like a dark room, like 2D stills, right?

00:03:58 ◼   ► So it's a dark room that you're in and they're showing a still dead center in your field of view.

00:04:02 ◼   ► But they've done the like, well, I forget the term for it on iOS, but the thing where they add depth to it.

00:04:08 ◼   ► And remember, everything is 3D, right?

00:04:09 ◼   ► So it looks like these are 3D stills.

00:04:12 ◼   ► And the other thing I really enjoyed, I've said this in the past, is they have like light coming from over your right shoulder.

00:04:17 ◼   ► So it looks like there's a projector over your right shoulder or something like that, which I thought was really neat.

00:04:22 ◼   ► And then finally, because a lot of this was spoken, you know, Spanish, I believe, they had subtitles.

00:04:27 ◼   ► But what happens if you twist your head?

00:04:29 ◼   ► Well, the subtitles were just a floating pane that followed your gaze, which I thought was really neat.

00:04:34 ◼   ► But yeah, this is, even as someone who does not particularly care about soccer, this was very worth the 17 or 18 minutes of my time.

00:04:42 ◼   ► And as someone who does love sports quite a lot, this is a great example or investigation.

00:04:50 ◼   ► I can't think of the word I'm looking for.

00:04:52 ◼   ► A case study in how wonderful sports can be and how it can really bring a group of, a disparate group of people together.

00:04:59 ◼   ► And I know that not everyone who listens to this program enjoys sports ball, but I do enjoy sports ball.

00:05:04 ◼   ► And this was a great, like, makes you feel good, kind of gives you, you know, gives you goosebumps about, oh, all of these people are enjoying something together.

00:05:11 ◼   ► And it was really fun.

00:05:12 ◼   ► So, Real Madrid, The Weight of Greatness, we will put a link in the show notes for the six of you that have a Vision Pro.

00:05:17 ◼   ► You should check it out.

00:05:18 ◼   ► I think it's worth your time.

00:05:19 ◼   ► We have a new member special.

00:05:22 ◼   ► I believe on the episode, I credited it to John, which was erroneous.

00:05:27 ◼   ► It was actually Marco that brought this idea to us.

00:05:29 ◼   ► So, Marco, would you like to describe it?

00:05:31 ◼   ► Yeah. So, it turns out there's this movie called Her a long time ago that everyone saw except me.

00:05:37 ◼   ► And, you know, that alone isn't anything new.

00:05:39 ◼   ► But then what happened is people kept talking about it over and over again.

00:05:42 ◼   ► And then the world that we live in started getting more and more like what I thought the movie Her was about.

00:05:47 ◼   ► And so, I thought it would be a good idea for us to actually watch it.

00:05:51 ◼   ► And so, we did.

00:05:52 ◼   ► And we talked about it.

00:05:53 ◼   ► And I think it went pretty well.

00:05:54 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:05:55 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:05:55 ◼   ► This is a 2013 movie with Joaquin Phoenix and Scarlett Johansson.

00:06:00 ◼   ► And it's all about falling in love with AI, basically.

00:06:04 ◼   ► Which, in 2013, was reasonably far-fetched.

00:06:08 ◼   ► But in 2026, it's all too real.

00:06:10 ◼   ► So, I really think the movie was very good.

00:06:14 ◼   ► It is not for youngsters.

00:06:15 ◼   ► And we talk about that on the cover special.

00:06:17 ◼   ► But it is a very good movie.

00:06:20 ◼   ► Viewer discretion is advised.

00:06:20 ◼   ► Viewer discretion is very much advised.

00:06:22 ◼   ► It is a good movie, though.

00:06:24 ◼   ► And I think the discussion was really interesting, like Marco said.

00:06:27 ◼   ► And I really enjoyed it.

00:06:28 ◼   ► So, John, anything to add?

00:06:30 ◼   ► It was just, it's very timely.

00:06:31 ◼   ► Marco was good to think of it for us to talk about.

00:06:33 ◼   ► And it's even more timely based on what we're going to talk about as the main topic of this show,

00:06:37 ◼   ► as we'll see in a little bit.

00:06:38 ◼   ► But, yeah, it's definitely, if you haven't revisited the movie,

00:06:41 ◼   ► if you saw it when it was released like I did and you just haven't thought about it since then,

00:06:43 ◼   ► re-watch it.

00:06:44 ◼   ► Because you definitely look at it with different eyes today than you did in 2013.

00:06:48 ◼   ► Very much so.

00:06:49 ◼   ► All right.

00:06:50 ◼   ► Let's do some follow-up, as we always do.

00:06:51 ◼   ► Let's talk cut, copy, and paste with files in the Finder.

00:06:55 ◼   ► And the whole of the internet wrote to us to say,

00:06:58 ◼   ► after you copy a file with Command-C in the Finder,

00:07:01 ◼   ► you can press or use the key combination Command-Option-V,

00:07:05 ◼   ► which will move item here.

00:07:07 ◼   ► This is in contrast with Command-V without the option,

00:07:10 ◼   ► which will paste here.

00:07:11 ◼   ► And so the internet wanted us to know that, and now we do.

00:07:14 ◼   ► But we did say that on the show, just to be fair.

00:07:17 ◼   ► I know it went by quickly, but when Casey was reading the question from the listener,

00:07:21 ◼   ► the question contained that information by saying,

00:07:25 ◼   ► I know you can do this and that or whatever,

00:07:27 ◼   ► and Command-Option-V was in there.

00:07:28 ◼   ► So just tell you what, you can't do Command-X in current versions of macOS,

00:07:32 ◼   ► but if you want to move a file using a tortured version of the cut, copy, and paste metaphor,

00:07:37 ◼   ► you can do so.

00:07:38 ◼   ► You just Command-C to copy and Command-Option-V to move.

00:07:41 ◼   ► I suggest not doing that.

00:07:43 ◼   ► I am super against move commands because I feel like bugs in,

00:07:46 ◼   ► any bug during the process can leave you with a totally deleted file

00:07:50 ◼   ► that you can't even get out of the trash.

00:07:52 ◼   ► But people seem to like it.

00:07:53 ◼   ► So if you want to do it, it's there for you.

00:07:54 ◼   ► All righty.

00:07:56 ◼   ► John, can you refresh my memory, or perhaps you haven't talked about this,

00:07:59 ◼   ► but refresh my memory with what's going on with your terminal and state restoration, please?

00:08:03 ◼   ► We, in fact, talked about it last episode, Casey.

00:08:05 ◼   ► You were there.

00:08:06 ◼   ► I thought so, but, you know, I never trust myself anymore.

00:08:08 ◼   ► Yeah, we're talking about, like, terminal emulators.

00:08:10 ◼   ► It was like an Ask ATP question, like, what theme do you use for your terminal emulators?

00:08:13 ◼   ► And we all got into the whole thing of, like, trying different terminal apps and stuff.

00:08:16 ◼   ► And I had mentioned that one of the things that frustrated me about Apple's terminal,

00:08:20 ◼   ► which was the app that I continued to use despite many alternatives that I have tried over the years,

00:08:25 ◼   ► is I've had sporadic luck with getting Apple's terminal to restore its state to the way I want it

00:08:34 ◼   ► when I launched the app.

00:08:35 ◼   ► I want it to restore all my windows and all my tabs, because, of course, I do.

00:08:38 ◼   ► And at various times, I've also gotten it to restore the current working directory of all the tabs

00:08:45 ◼   ► to where they were when I quit terminal.

00:08:47 ◼   ► But, like, that broke, or, like, it would work, and then it would break, then it worked, then it'd break,

00:08:53 ◼   ► and it's currently in a broken period.

00:08:54 ◼   ► And I was like, oh.

00:08:55 ◼   ► I was mentioning this because, like, third-party terminal applications do better in that sometimes

00:09:00 ◼   ► because they have more sane preferences, and it makes more sense to me.

00:09:02 ◼   ► You can just say, yes, restore everything.

00:09:04 ◼   ► And it's like, great, it works.

00:09:05 ◼   ► But terminal settings are Byzantine and confusing.

00:09:08 ◼   ► And so lots of people wrote in and say, you should try X, Y, and Z.

00:09:11 ◼   ► A lot of people wrote in to say, here's what I do.

00:09:13 ◼   ► But, of course, all those people are using, like, they're either using Bash,

00:09:16 ◼   ► because Bash is an extremely popular shell, and it used to be the default on macOS,

00:09:20 ◼   ► or they'll say, do this, and it's with the current macOS default shell, which is ZSH.

00:09:25 ◼   ► I don't use either one of those shells.

00:09:26 ◼   ► None of those solutions are going to work for me.

00:09:28 ◼   ► The shell scripting in my shell doesn't look like those shells.

00:09:32 ◼   ► It's totally different.

00:09:33 ◼   ► I use TCH.

00:09:34 ◼   ► It's super old.

00:09:35 ◼   ► No one should ever use it.

00:09:36 ◼   ► Do not.

00:09:37 ◼   ► It's bad.

00:09:38 ◼   ► It's old, and it's bad.

00:09:39 ◼   ► It's like me using PHP.

00:09:42 ◼   ► Why do I use it?

00:09:43 ◼   ► Because it was the default shell on the first Unix system I used in 1993.

00:09:48 ◼   ► That is the answer.

00:09:49 ◼   ► I remember that, you saying that.

00:09:50 ◼   ► I really, truly do.

00:09:51 ◼   ► Yeah, that's what I use.

00:09:52 ◼   ► But anyway, seeing people say, here's what I use in ZSH, I was like, oh, yeah.

00:09:56 ◼   ► Yeah, I remember that.

00:09:58 ◼   ► That was part of the solution when I did this.

00:10:00 ◼   ► And then, of course, I just Googled for, you know, a TCSH version of the ZSH thing.

00:10:05 ◼   ► Like, I'm sure there's an equivalent.

00:10:06 ◼   ► And I found a web page, and it's like, yeah, you need to put this in one of your .files.

00:10:10 ◼   ► I go into my relevant .file, and there is that code staring me in the face, which I'm

00:10:15 ◼   ► sure I wrote 20 years ago in that exact spot.

00:10:17 ◼   ► So, yeah, I had whatever that.

00:10:21 ◼   ► It was like, I've got it.

00:10:21 ◼   ► This is it.

00:10:22 ◼   ► This is the solution.

00:10:23 ◼   ► I'll just add this to my, oh, it's already there.

00:10:24 ◼   ► So that was a humbling experience.

00:10:27 ◼   ► But they did get me on the trail.

00:10:30 ◼   ► Like, well, why wasn't it working?

00:10:31 ◼   ► Why was it working sporadically?

00:10:32 ◼   ► It turns out at some point, I don't know, let's say in the past five years, I made some

00:10:38 ◼   ► kind of edit to one of my .files that was silently causing certain code in it not to run due

00:10:43 ◼   ► to, like, a mismatch conditional thing somewhere in it.

00:10:46 ◼   ► Because I had conditionals.

00:10:47 ◼   ► Don't ask.

00:10:48 ◼   ► It's complicated.

00:10:48 ◼   ► Anyway, the code that I had there was correct, but it wasn't running or wasn't running all

00:10:53 ◼   ► the time or it was only running in, like, the first login shell.

00:10:56 ◼   ► Anyway, it was complicated.

00:10:57 ◼   ► But once I was on the trail, I figured it out.

00:10:59 ◼   ► So I figured I would just, at the very least, document how, you know, what I got to work

00:11:05 ◼   ► here.

00:11:05 ◼   ► Not that anyone out there is wondering, how do I get this worked in TCSH?

00:11:08 ◼   ► But maybe just for, maybe this is just for me so that when I look for it later, I'll find

00:11:11 ◼   ► this ATP episode and the transcripts that we'll have by then.

00:11:15 ◼   ► So here's the solution.

00:11:18 ◼   ► We'll put in the show notes the code that's in my, it's not in my CSHRC.

00:11:23 ◼   ► But anyway, if you put it in your CSHRC, TCSH reads the CSHRC.

00:11:26 ◼   ► It's just a bunch of stuff that basically says, if you're in Apple Terminal, before each command,

00:11:33 ◼   ► run this thing.

00:11:35 ◼   ► And it prints a bunch of VT, you know, VT100 escape sequences combined with some more modern

00:11:41 ◼   ► stuff with a file URL and blah, blah, blah.

00:11:44 ◼   ► That basically talks to the terminal and tells it what directory you're in.

00:11:49 ◼   ► So it can be restored.

00:11:50 ◼   ► But, um, and the interesting thing is I believe, I'm not entirely sure about this.

00:11:54 ◼   ► Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the way the restoration works is that you tell

00:11:57 ◼   ► Apple Terminal, yeah, restore the scroll back to what it was before.

00:12:00 ◼   ► And when it restores the scroll back, because these escape codes are in the scroll back, they

00:12:05 ◼   ► essentially change the current working directory because they are text content in the scroll

00:12:09 ◼   ► back that the terminal interprets as a please change this directory thing.

00:12:12 ◼   ► I think that's how it works.

00:12:13 ◼   ► Anyway, um, the other part of it and the part I struggle with the most, even after rediscovering

00:12:18 ◼   ► this and even after fixing my dot files was what do I change all the stupid settings in

00:12:22 ◼   ► Apple's terminal app to be?

00:12:23 ◼   ► And so I'll put screenshots in the show notes of that.

00:12:26 ◼   ► The answer is, even though the terminal application can do lots of fancy stuff related to, uh,

00:12:33 ◼   ► window and tab titles, you don't want any of it.

00:12:36 ◼   ► Uncheck everything.

00:12:37 ◼   ► Uncheck the, the, the working directory or document or path in both the tab and the window.

00:12:43 ◼   ► There's two separate tabs.

00:12:44 ◼   ► There's the tab for tab and there's a tab for window.

00:12:46 ◼   ► Um, and there is a little thing, a little, some blue text that says escape sequence that

00:12:51 ◼   ► even if you didn't know about this has a little tooltip popover thing that explains or tries

00:12:57 ◼   ► to explain, does a bad job, but it tries to explain the escape sequences that you need to

00:13:00 ◼   ► do.

00:13:01 ◼   ► Uh, you guys can see that, uh, popover.

00:13:03 ◼   ► If you read that, would that have helped you at all with this problem?

00:13:07 ◼   ► No, probably not.

00:13:08 ◼   ► Like in hindsight, now that I, you know, if I look at my dot file, because I'm familiar with

00:13:13 ◼   ► escape sequences or back in the day, like I can see what they're getting at, but nobody

00:13:16 ◼   ► who doesn't already know the answer is ever going to look at this popover and get it.

00:13:19 ◼   ► But at the very least you could like copy and text, uh, copy and paste the text from

00:13:23 ◼   ► the popover into Google and find better solutions.

00:13:26 ◼   ► Anyway, that's how I got my stuff working the way I want it.

00:13:30 ◼   ► And the way I want it, by the way, is this.

00:13:31 ◼   ► I want my tab titles to be settable by me manually.

00:13:36 ◼   ► I have a command line thing that would have set the tab title by printing an escape sequence

00:13:40 ◼   ► and never change, but I want the current working directory to be whatever it was when I quit

00:13:46 ◼   ► the application.

00:13:47 ◼   ► So if I have a tab title that says like home, but I'm not in my home directory, doesn't matter.

00:13:52 ◼   ► That's reminding me that this is the tab that is normally in my home directory and I may have

00:13:56 ◼   ► changed out of it, but now if I want to go back to where it should be, I will go back to

00:14:00 ◼   ► the home directory and blah, blah, blah.

00:14:01 ◼   ► Anyway, that's the way I want it.

00:14:02 ◼   ► It's a weird way to want things.

00:14:03 ◼   ► Lots of people, most people want it so that when you change in directory, the tab title

00:14:07 ◼   ► changes to reflect the directory.

00:14:09 ◼   ► And I don't want that.

00:14:10 ◼   ► So if you want that, you can achieve that with various settings, but I, I'm glad that I figured

00:14:14 ◼   ► this out and now I have documented it at least in a podcast so that when I forget this in

00:14:19 ◼   ► 20 more years and I'm still using Apple terminal, I can look it up.

00:14:22 ◼   ► All right.

00:14:23 ◼   ► And then with regard to terminal apps for Mac OS with text-based config files, I think you were

00:14:29 ◼   ► lamenting this idea, if I'm not mistaken.

00:14:31 ◼   ► I remember us talking about it.

00:14:32 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:14:32 ◼   ► I don't like it.

00:14:33 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:14:33 ◼   ► I don't like it.

00:14:34 ◼   ► All right.

00:14:34 ◼   ► But maybe it's not so bad.

00:14:35 ◼   ► Tell me why.

00:14:36 ◼   ► Oh, everyone said, Hey, yeah.

00:14:37 ◼   ► Text-based config files.

00:14:38 ◼   ► This can be confusing.

00:14:39 ◼   ► You know, to be clear, these are GUI Apple terminal applications for the Mac.

00:14:43 ◼   ► They're GUI apps.

00:14:45 ◼   ► But when you hit command comma for, for preferences, it opens a text file on your text editor.

00:14:51 ◼   ► And then, you know, it's just like a config file.

00:14:53 ◼   ► It's like, all right, well, you kind of just opted out of the whole GUI thing there.

00:14:57 ◼   ► And it's like, no, it's not so bad.

00:14:58 ◼   ► You just tell an LLM to, to set the configuration the way you want it.

00:15:02 ◼   ► So you just basically decide, I want the cursor to be right.

00:15:04 ◼   ► I want this, blah, blah, blah.

00:15:05 ◼   ► And the LLMs, you know, read the documentation and understand the config file and set it for you.

00:15:10 ◼   ► And it's like, I would prefer to have checkboxes, you know, like, yes, that will sort of work.

00:15:15 ◼   ► Although I can tell you that, uh, sometimes you just can't get what you want.

00:15:20 ◼   ► Like lots of people were suggesting ghost TTY, which I, I think installed that back when it was released.

00:15:24 ◼   ► And I tried to get, that's another one of the applications that I tried to get to look like Apple terminal,

00:15:28 ◼   ► but I could not get the title bar to look right.

00:15:30 ◼   ► So I'm like, all right, all right, Claude and Codex, you take a crack at it.

00:15:33 ◼   ► And they just told me to do things that I had already done that did not work.

00:15:36 ◼   ► And so that was it for them.

00:15:37 ◼   ► They could not help.

00:15:39 ◼   ► Uh, it could be that you just can't configure it the way I want.

00:15:41 ◼   ► But, um, but anyway, that's the suggestion.

00:15:43 ◼   ► I think that is not the path forward for a good Mac application.

00:15:46 ◼   ► Talk about Mac as some applications, which we may someday talk about at length, maybe in a member special.

00:15:51 ◼   ► This ain't it.

00:15:52 ◼   ► Don't give me a text config file and tell me to use an LLM set the preferences.

00:15:55 ◼   ► You have to actually make a GUI for that.

00:15:58 ◼   ► So I can click on little checkboxes and pop up menus.

00:16:00 ◼   ► You got to do it.

00:16:01 ◼   ► Sorry.

00:16:01 ◼   ► Yeah, I was just looking, I use a visual studio code for, uh, tracking what becomes the external,

00:16:08 ◼   ► external show notes for the show, the things that are, you know, embedded in the, the RSS

00:16:12 ◼   ► feed.

00:16:12 ◼   ► And it used to be that when you hit command space, it would drop you in a text file, basically

00:16:16 ◼   ► say, go, you know, go pound sand.

00:16:17 ◼   ► Uh, but now there is a very not native, but large and luminous, uh, preferences window

00:16:24 ◼   ► in here.

00:16:25 ◼   ► Uh, so you can go and click checkboxes and so on and so forth.

00:16:29 ◼   ► All right.

00:16:29 ◼   ► Uh, we also got, uh, recommendations for fancy shell prompts in including, uh, Adam Brown,

00:16:34 ◼   ► who suggested starship.rs, which I, I, maybe I'm just a dummy, but I was failing to totally

00:16:42 ◼   ► understand what the, the pitch is here.

00:16:45 ◼   ► It seemed like it's like a get aware thing that'll tell you what, what get branch you're

00:16:49 ◼   ► in and on what version and stuff like that.

00:16:51 ◼   ► But I'm sure it's more than that.

00:16:51 ◼   ► Cause you're so old.

00:16:52 ◼   ► You don't do what the kids do.

00:16:53 ◼   ► Or maybe you do.

00:16:54 ◼   ► Tell me about your prompt Casey.

00:16:55 ◼   ► Oh, it's just the path and little else.

00:16:57 ◼   ► I think actually fish gives you what branch you're in.

00:17:00 ◼   ► If you're in a get friendly or get aware subdirectory.

00:17:04 ◼   ► But the first question about your prompt is you say, Oh, it's just the path and little

00:17:07 ◼   ► else.

00:17:07 ◼   ► Am I to assume that that path appears on the same line as your insertion point?

00:17:12 ◼   ► Yes.

00:17:12 ◼   ► Well, now you're an old man because that's not what the cool kids do.

00:17:16 ◼   ► Oh, my mistake.

00:17:18 ◼   ► They use multi-line prompts, which have existed for decades and starship.rs is a fancy way,

00:17:23 ◼   ► you know, that people have encapsulated, like, here's how to make a cool multi-line prompt.

00:17:27 ◼   ► It's a wherever you get repo and this and that and the other thing.

00:17:29 ◼   ► Right.

00:17:30 ◼   ► And starship is just sort of like, we've packaged that up for you.

00:17:32 ◼   ► So you don't have to like find tutorials and stuff like that.

00:17:34 ◼   ► But the thing, the reason I noted it is here is because I go to these things and they're

00:17:38 ◼   ► like, yeah, we've, we've got this cool shell feature.

00:17:40 ◼   ► Look at all these fancy smart completions for this thing or whatever.

00:17:44 ◼   ► And they never work with anything except for bash and maybe ZSH and fish.

00:17:48 ◼   ► Right.

00:17:49 ◼   ► This one actually says, Oh yeah.

00:17:51 ◼   ► And if you use TCSH, just do this.

00:17:52 ◼   ► I'm like, are you kidding me?

00:17:53 ◼   ► So kudos to the starship people.

00:17:55 ◼   ► I'm never going to use this because I am not a multi-line prompt person because I'm old.

00:17:58 ◼   ► But if you like a multi-line prompt and you use ZSH, bash, fish, TCSH, apparently, who knows

00:18:07 ◼   ► what else?

00:18:08 ◼   ► Maybe the corn shell with a K.

00:18:09 ◼   ► Yeah, it's, you should check it out.

00:18:12 ◼   ► So I did not try it.

00:18:13 ◼   ► I'm not interested in it, but multi-line prompts are definitely a thing.

00:18:17 ◼   ► And the whole point with multi-line prompt is your prompt can be as wide as your window

00:18:20 ◼   ► because your insertion point is not there.

00:18:22 ◼   ► And it can contain lots of fancy information.

00:18:24 ◼   ► What branch am I in?

00:18:25 ◼   ► What files have been modified?

00:18:28 ◼   ► What's the current date and time?

00:18:30 ◼   ► What is the uptime?

00:18:31 ◼   ► What is the CP?

00:18:31 ◼   ► Like people put so much stuff there.

00:18:33 ◼   ► This one has like a special font that lets you put like your battery health in there, like

00:18:36 ◼   ► a little battery symbol with a part of the battery to be filled.

00:18:39 ◼   ► Like it's, anyway, I thought it was neat and I was excited that it used TCSH.

00:18:42 ◼   ► So you can check that out.

00:18:43 ◼   ► I am so old looking at the, looking at the features of this and seeing how far this is

00:18:48 ◼   ► from my like default bash shell prompt.

00:18:51 ◼   ► Like, oh boy.

00:18:52 ◼   ► I remember when people first started doing this several decades ago when it became popular

00:18:57 ◼   ► in my workplaces where I'd go to someone's desk and they would have a multi-line prompt

00:19:00 ◼   ► and they're like, it's so amazing.

00:19:01 ◼   ► You can do it.

00:19:02 ◼   ► They were just like rolling their own in a bash or whatever.

00:19:04 ◼   ► Like there was no packaged up stuff for it.

00:19:05 ◼   ► I was like, uh, nah, nah, nah, not interested.

00:19:09 ◼   ► And I'm still not interested, but people love it.

00:19:12 ◼   ► So I'm also very disappointed to learn now in Wikipedia that apparently corn shell has

00:19:16 ◼   ► nothing to do with the band.

00:19:18 ◼   ► No, it does not.

00:19:19 ◼   ► It predates them substantially.

00:19:20 ◼   ► Oh, that's funny.

00:19:23 ◼   ► All right.

00:19:24 ◼   ► And then, uh, continuing in the, uh, terminal in shell area, uh, Derek wrote in to say,

00:19:30 ◼   ► I just came across this explanation of the inner workings of the terminal, which is the

00:19:34 ◼   ► terminal, the TTY and the shell, which is in turn from the Linux field guide by Uros

00:19:39 ◼   ► Popovich.

00:19:40 ◼   ► Um, and we will link all this in the show notes and I know basically nothing about how all this

00:19:46 ◼   ► works.

00:19:46 ◼   ► So at some point when I have a minute, I'm going to be checking this out too.

00:19:49 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:19:50 ◼   ► And I have a suggestion in that area, which is, uh, the secret rules of the terminal by Julia

00:19:54 ◼   ► Evans.

00:19:54 ◼   ► Um, it's one of, uh, her wizard zines.

00:19:57 ◼   ► If you have never read wizard zines, it's wizardzines.com.

00:20:00 ◼   ► Um, you should check them out.

00:20:02 ◼   ► It's basically, it's, it's a reminder to me every time I see them go by and I've purchased

00:20:05 ◼   ► several of them every time I see them go by that basically people learn in different

00:20:09 ◼   ► ways.

00:20:09 ◼   ► And if you learn in the way that is catered to by wizard zines, it is just a godsend to

00:20:15 ◼   ► you.

00:20:16 ◼   ► So it's basically like, you know, multi-panel comic strips telling you about technical details

00:20:23 ◼   ► of, uh, you know, Unix-y nerdy stuff, programming parts of Unix, stuff like that.

00:20:28 ◼   ► Um, and it's not telling you like the basics it's telling, it's trying to get you at like

00:20:34 ◼   ► to understand fundamentally how they work and also to like demystify the technical nerdy

00:20:39 ◼   ► inner workings.

00:20:40 ◼   ► But of course it's a, it's a short, they're short comic strips.

00:20:42 ◼   ► So they can't, it's not like pages and pages of text.

00:20:44 ◼   ► So it can't go into a ton of detail, but that doesn't mean it's surface level.

00:20:47 ◼   ► It goes deep on a few specific things and tries to describe them in casual ways, but

00:20:53 ◼   ► the things that describe it, describing it are incredibly nitty gritty.

00:20:56 ◼   ► So the secret rules of the terminal is like, Hey, all that escape sequence stuff and the

00:21:00 ◼   ► VT codes or whatever, it doesn't go into like an extensive 200 page history of it and where

00:21:04 ◼   ► it came from and glass teletypes and blah, blah, blah.

00:21:06 ◼   ► But it basically says there's, there are mechanisms under there and here's how they work.

00:21:10 ◼   ► And it gives you like practical advice.

00:21:11 ◼   ► And, uh, you know, it basically lets you to know, know where to look to, to find, to find

00:21:16 ◼   ► out more information, it lets, you know, what you don't know.

00:21:19 ◼   ► And also, uh, sort of laser targets is a few specific things.

00:21:22 ◼   ► So I think they're a great way.

00:21:24 ◼   ► If that's how you learn, if you don't, if you're not one of those people, it's like,

00:21:27 ◼   ► I need top down, tell me just the broad strokes, or I need bottom up, start from the ones and

00:21:32 ◼   ► zeros and the bits in the history.

00:21:33 ◼   ► This is somewhere vaguely in the middle.

00:21:36 ◼   ► Uh, and I find, I find them fascinating.

00:21:38 ◼   ► There's tons of them on tons of topics.

00:21:40 ◼   ► It's a great one on DNS.

00:21:41 ◼   ► Um, there's the ones on how Git works.

00:21:44 ◼   ► Uh, Julie has also contributed to the Git, uh, the actual official Git user manual written

00:21:48 ◼   ► substantial portions of it, I believe.

00:21:49 ◼   ► So check out wizardzines.com.

00:21:51 ◼   ► If you haven't already there, the, these things, zines are well worth the money.

00:21:54 ◼   ► You can find lots of, um, free samples.

00:21:59 ◼   ► She posts them herself on social media and stuff and free samples on the pages.

00:22:02 ◼   ► And you can learn a ton just by following her on social media.

00:22:05 ◼   ► And by the way, she's not, this is not a sponsorship.

00:22:07 ◼   ► She's not sponsoring.

00:22:07 ◼   ► This is entirely just because I think it's a cool thing.

00:22:09 ◼   ► And it just so happened.

00:22:10 ◼   ► She recently wrote one about the exact weird nitty gritty terminal escape sequence.

00:22:16 ◼   ► Like what is the relationship between the terminal, you know, the application, Apple terminal,

00:22:21 ◼   ► the shell, the TTY, what even is a TTY, uh, you know, like when you hit control C, what

00:22:29 ◼   ► catches that keystroke and what chooses to take action on it?

00:22:32 ◼   ► Uh, these are like terrifying questions.

00:22:34 ◼   ► If you've ever asked them in an interview, because nobody knows this stuff anymore, because

00:22:37 ◼   ► it's so old and it's also steeped in history, but this will, uh, give you a handle on some

00:22:42 ◼   ► of it.

00:22:43 ◼   ► We are sponsored this episode by Cotypist.

00:22:46 ◼   ► Cotypist is smart autocomplete for the Mac.

00:22:49 ◼   ► It predicts your next words as you type in any app and the AI runs entirely on your own

00:22:55 ◼   ► machine.

00:22:55 ◼   ► Now I tried out Cotypist to do this ad and I was blown away by a few things.

00:23:00 ◼   ► First of all, I love the idea of a better autocomplete because it can save so much time

00:23:06 ◼   ► and so much typing.

00:23:07 ◼   ► Now, you know, autocompletes in the past, I haven't used them that much because they usually

00:23:10 ◼   ► are not predicting what I actually wanted to say.

00:23:12 ◼   ► Cotypist is way smarter because it uses modern AI technologies, but it does it all locally

00:23:17 ◼   ► on your Mac.

00:23:18 ◼   ► So the suggestions are better than previous techniques, but also it's private.

00:23:23 ◼   ► It's not sending your data to some cloud service, to some big model to be trained on or anything

00:23:27 ◼   ► like that.

00:23:28 ◼   ► It's all local using the power of your Mac locally.

00:23:31 ◼   ► So it's super private and it's super fast and you're not hitting some token limits or anything

00:23:35 ◼   ► like that.

00:23:36 ◼   ► So here's how it works.

00:23:37 ◼   ► You start typing and it suggests and you can hit tab to accept its suggestion or not.

00:23:41 ◼   ► And it just goes word by word.

00:23:43 ◼   ► So if it's four words, you hit tab, tab, tab, tab, you accept the whole thing and it's saving

00:23:47 ◼   ► you all this time typing.

00:23:48 ◼   ► Now, if you don't want to accept a word, you just start typing whatever you were going to

00:23:52 ◼   ► type and it in real time will update its suggestions based on what you're typing.

00:23:57 ◼   ► So a lot of times you just type like the first letter or two of what you wanted and it figures

00:24:01 ◼   ► out, oh, you wanted this word instead.

00:24:02 ◼   ► And it offers that up next.

00:24:03 ◼   ► So you can hit tab and accept that.

00:24:04 ◼   ► So it saves you tons of time.

00:24:06 ◼   ► Check it out because what you're getting is a faster version of you and what you're typing,

00:24:11 ◼   ► not like AI garbage.

00:24:13 ◼   ► It's actually what you are already writing just faster.

00:24:16 ◼   ► Get a free 30 day trial of Cotypist plus 25% off your first bill at cotypist.app slash

00:24:24 ◼   ► ATP.

00:24:24 ◼   ► That's Cotypist spelled C-O-T-Y-P-I-S-T.

00:24:28 ◼   ► Cotypist.app slash ATP.

00:24:32 ◼   ► Thanks to Cotypist for sponsoring our show.

00:24:34 ◼   ► Then let's talk about Dropbox and other cloud, you know, syncing providers and ignoring node

00:24:43 ◼   ► modules.

00:24:43 ◼   ► It seems like this is the story that never ends.

00:24:46 ◼   ► We've been talking about it for years.

00:24:47 ◼   ► Hunter Hillegas writes, Dropbox has a rule system that can be used to omit stuff like NPM

00:24:52 ◼   ► output, et cetera.

00:24:53 ◼   ► We'll put a link in the show notes to their documentation about this.

00:24:57 ◼   ► And from there, ignore rules will not apply to files already synced online.

00:25:01 ◼   ► These files need to be manually removed from Dropbox.com.

00:25:04 ◼   ► Cool.

00:25:04 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:25:05 ◼   ► So I tried this.

00:25:07 ◼   ► They basically say, make a text file in your Dropbox and here's the format of the text.

00:25:10 ◼   ► I'm like, great.

00:25:11 ◼   ► This is great.

00:25:11 ◼   ► This will solve my problem because it has like rules kind of like get ignore rules where

00:25:14 ◼   ► you can basically say, hey, any directory that is named node underscore modules, no matter

00:25:18 ◼   ► where it is, just ignore it.

00:25:19 ◼   ► And so I did that and I was like, oh, it didn't work.

00:25:21 ◼   ► And then it said, oh, well, the rules won't apply if the files already synced.

00:25:24 ◼   ► I'm like, oh, maybe I have to go to Dropbox.com and like delete them.

00:25:26 ◼   ► So because obviously they had previously synced and I went to Dropbox.com and they

00:25:31 ◼   ► weren't there.

00:25:31 ◼   ► I'm like, well, but did it work?

00:25:33 ◼   ► And so I kept doing a series of experiments.

00:25:36 ◼   ► Basically, I would empty out a node modules directory, right?

00:25:39 ◼   ► And when I emptied it out, you know, r minus rf, the contents of that directory, I would

00:25:43 ◼   ► see in the little menu bar like the, you know, the Dropbox popover would be like spinning.

00:25:48 ◼   ► And if you click on it, you'd see a progress bar where it's like syncing, you know, syncing

00:25:52 ◼   ► 8,500 files, right?

00:25:54 ◼   ► And this progress bar would go because I just deleted 8,500 files and the progress bar would

00:25:58 ◼   ► go and march along and it would be like done.

00:25:59 ◼   ► All right.

00:26:00 ◼   ► Now I'll put these ignore rules in.

00:26:02 ◼   ► I try like every possible variation.

00:26:03 ◼   ► Maybe I don't understand the syntax.

00:26:05 ◼   ► Maybe I should try every variation.

00:26:06 ◼   ► Maybe I should try an absolute path.

00:26:08 ◼   ► I just tried every possible ignore rule you could put for like totally, you know, Dropbox,

00:26:11 ◼   ► you're going to totally ignore this directory.

00:26:13 ◼   ► And then I would run NPM install and I'll run NPM install and it would, it would create

00:26:16 ◼   ► 8,500 files, right?

00:26:18 ◼   ► And Dropbox would show progress more syncing 8,000, but it wouldn't actually sync any of

00:26:23 ◼   ► them.

00:26:23 ◼   ► It would just show the progress bar.

00:26:24 ◼   ► And I guess it would, for each file, it would say, oh, this file appeared.

00:26:27 ◼   ► Oh, that's on my ignore list.

00:26:28 ◼   ► Oh, this file appeared.

00:26:28 ◼   ► Oh, that's my ignore list.

00:26:29 ◼   ► But it would still take time.

00:26:30 ◼   ► It would still essentially delay the syncing of other files as it looked at each one of those

00:26:37 ◼   ► files, presumably, you know, drinking from the FS events fire hose and just say, got to ignore

00:26:41 ◼   ► this one, got to ignore this one, got to ignore.

00:26:43 ◼   ► And it's like, that's not what I want, Dropbox.

00:26:45 ◼   ► I want you to just not touch them at all.

00:26:47 ◼   ► Or at the very least, don't tie yourself up and don't show up.

00:26:49 ◼   ► And the progress bar was slow.

00:26:50 ◼   ► It wasn't like the progress bar went zip.

00:26:52 ◼   ► Now it's so much faster.

00:26:52 ◼   ► Like I timed the progress bar when I was ignoring them, when I was not ignoring them.

00:26:57 ◼   ► And they weren't that different.

00:26:58 ◼   ► Like it was in the margin of error, both directions, because they're small files and have a fast internet

00:27:02 ◼   ► connection.

00:27:02 ◼   ► So this is a super weird feature.

00:27:05 ◼   ► Like I left it in there.

00:27:06 ◼   ► I'm like, all right, well, I guess I bother.

00:27:08 ◼   ► I don't need them to actually be synced.

00:27:10 ◼   ► But it's not solving my problem, which is when I do lots of activity in node modules,

00:27:15 ◼   ► the actual files that I want to sync have to contend with the processing of the node module

00:27:20 ◼   ► files.

00:27:20 ◼   ► And that still seems to be the case.

00:27:21 ◼   ► And I'm using a non-file provider version.

00:27:23 ◼   ► So maybe it's different for file provider.

00:27:24 ◼   ► But I have to give a thumb sideways to this feature from Dropbox.

00:27:27 ◼   ► Noted.

00:27:30 ◼   ► Good to know.

00:27:30 ◼   ► All right.

00:27:31 ◼   ► And then speaking of Dropbox, you can also use, what is the correct verbal pronunciation

00:27:36 ◼   ► for this thing, John?

00:27:38 ◼   ► Just Markham.

00:27:39 ◼   ► Enum.

00:27:41 ◼   ► I say x-adders or extended attributes.

00:27:44 ◼   ► Zatras.

00:27:45 ◼   ► You can use zatters or shatters.

00:27:48 ◼   ► And maybe it's shatters.

00:27:50 ◼   ► Anyways, you can use x-a-t-t-r-s.

00:27:52 ◼   ► You can use those things to tell Dropbox that a file or folder should be ignored.

00:27:57 ◼   ► Baz Bandalo writes, solving, ignoring node modules and other folders from syncing on a

00:28:02 ◼   ► Mac.

00:28:03 ◼   ► And this is a Medium post.

00:28:04 ◼   ► God help me.

00:28:05 ◼   ► Every time I open a Medium post, I get angry because of the stupid popovers and how hostile

00:28:10 ◼   ► it is to reading.

00:28:11 ◼   ► But that's neither here nor there.

00:28:13 ◼   ► Anyway, this post is actually pretty good and talks about how you can accomplish this

00:28:16 ◼   ► using...

00:28:16 ◼   ► And of course, there's two sets of extended attributes, one for file provider and one for

00:28:19 ◼   ► not file provider.

00:28:20 ◼   ► And of course, you have to remember to set them on the files in the Dropbox.

00:28:22 ◼   ► It's kind of like the time machine ignoring thing.

00:28:24 ◼   ► You can set extended attributes on files to have time machine ignore them.

00:28:27 ◼   ► So now you need some mechanism to make sure every time you make a new node modules directory,

00:28:31 ◼   ► you always make sure you set the correct x-adder for your version of Dropbox on it.

00:28:34 ◼   ► Yada, yada.

00:28:34 ◼   ► But just suffice it to say, you can do the x-adder approach or the Dropbox rules file thing.

00:28:40 ◼   ► All right.

00:28:41 ◼   ► And then with regard to time machine, as we had just mentioned a moment ago, Paul Gallo

00:28:46 ◼   ► writes, regarding John's issues with node modules and time machine, I found that switching

00:28:50 ◼   ► to PNPM helped a lot.

00:28:52 ◼   ► PNPM stores all package files in a single content addressable store on disk and hard links them

00:28:58 ◼   ► into each project's node modules.

00:28:59 ◼   ► So identical packages across projects only occupy space once.

00:29:03 ◼   ► And this saves disk space and speeds up installs when packages are already in the store.

00:29:07 ◼   ► For time machine specifically, the big win is that the project level node modules

00:29:10 ◼   ► these folders shrink down to mostly symlinks.

00:29:12 ◼   ► The stored stealth still gets backed up, but it's only a single directory.

00:29:16 ◼   ► Also, PNPM recently introduced more reasonable defaults to protect against supply chain attacks.

00:29:20 ◼   ► This sounds very neat to me, but I'm always terrified of running anything other than the

00:29:24 ◼   ► bog standard stuff in node.

00:29:26 ◼   ► So I didn't actually try it.

00:29:27 ◼   ► But kudos to them for coming up with a cool way to make things faster and save space.

00:29:33 ◼   ► Moving completely sideways, the 20th anniversary iPhone's curved display is going to get better

00:29:39 ◼   ► a year after the 20th anniversary iPhone is released, which this always cracks me up when

00:29:44 ◼   ► we have news about like current iPhone plus two or three or whatever.

00:29:50 ◼   ► But nevertheless, Tim Hardwick at MacRumors writes, Apple's already planning a second version of

00:29:54 ◼   ► the, quote, four edge bending display that is rumored to debut on next year's 20th anniversary

00:29:59 ◼   ► iPhone claims a new report out of Korea.

00:30:01 ◼   ► ET News reports that Apple's planning a two stage rollout for the new OLED display technology that

00:30:06 ◼   ► the commemorative iPhone will use.

00:30:09 ◼   ► With a more advanced version said to be coming a year later.

00:30:11 ◼   ► For the 2027 variant, Apple will reportedly rely on OLED technology that uses a magnesium silver

00:30:16 ◼   ► alloy in the cathode layer.

00:30:18 ◼   ► This implementation can cause image distortion and brightness loss in curved areas, but Apple

00:30:22 ◼   ► is apparently willing to live with the compromise for the 20th anniversary iPhone, while more

00:30:26 ◼   ► advanced technology scales.

00:30:28 ◼   ► Apple then plans to address the issue in the 2028 iPhone by transitioning to next generation

00:30:33 ◼   ► transparent electrodes.

00:30:34 ◼   ► Apple will reportedly switch to indium zinc oxide cathode materials.

00:30:40 ◼   ► And because IZO is more transparent, it should reduce distortion, uneven brightness and heat

00:30:45 ◼   ► issues around the curved edges when enabling even narrower bezels.

00:30:49 ◼   ► So this is relevant to Marco wondering whether the 20th anniversary phone would be like the

00:30:54 ◼   ► 20th anniversary Mac and be like a one and done special model.

00:30:56 ◼   ► But if they're planning a second variant the next year, it seems like they're at the very

00:31:02 ◼   ► least of this rumors to be believed, hoping that the curved screen is not a disaster.

00:31:06 ◼   ► And it turns out that people mostly like it and eventually all phones will look like that.

00:31:09 ◼   ► But we'll see.

00:31:11 ◼   ► All right.

00:31:11 ◼   ► So long, long time ago, I don't know, it was like 10, 15 episodes ago, Marco was talking

00:31:17 ◼   ► about reminders and had some very reasonable gripes about it.

00:31:20 ◼   ► I don't even remember what iOS version we were on.

00:31:22 ◼   ► I think it was 26 dot something.

00:31:24 ◼   ► And at the time, the whole of the Internet, the same entire Internet that spoke to us earlier,

00:31:28 ◼   ► wrote in to ask if Marco had tried the alarm style reminders.

00:31:33 ◼   ► And we'll put a link in the show notes to what exactly this means.

00:31:35 ◼   ► This is a post for Mac rumors that explains how you can set alarm style iPhone reminders

00:31:40 ◼   ► in iOS 26.2.

00:31:43 ◼   ► So, Marco, were you aware of this at the time or perhaps now?

00:31:46 ◼   ► Have you messed with this?

00:31:47 ◼   ► At the time, I don't think I knew about it.

00:31:50 ◼   ► I do know about it now and I have messed with it because I am building an app that, you know,

00:31:56 ◼   ► at least so far for myself, but I will probably end up releasing it at some point.

00:31:59 ◼   ► But I'm building an app called Tentatively Reminder that I've mentioned on the show before.

00:32:04 ◼   ► And it reads and writes the reminders database.

00:32:09 ◼   ► And I had what I wanted to make sure of, like, how how much of the built in reminders features

00:32:16 ◼   ► am I covering and how many of those features would my app either, you know, have to re-implement

00:32:22 ◼   ► to support them or how many of the features are not even available in the API for me to detect

00:32:27 ◼   ► or set.

00:32:28 ◼   ► So, therefore, will I clobber those features on those reminders if my app edits them?

00:32:33 ◼   ► And the alarm reminder is one of these, one of the latter things where the reminders API

00:32:41 ◼   ► does not contain anything about the alarm reminders whatsoever.

00:32:46 ◼   ► If you edit those in the API, if you edit their alarm objects at all, those just get blown

00:32:51 ◼   ► away.

00:32:51 ◼   ► I have not used them, but, you know, except in testing.

00:32:55 ◼   ► But I did find in testing an alarm reminder is exactly what you think it is.

00:32:59 ◼   ► It's a reminder that at a certain time makes the iPhone alarm function happen.

00:33:05 ◼   ► So, you know, it's it'll it'll break through, do not disturb.

00:33:08 ◼   ► It'll you know, it'll make noise no matter what.

00:33:10 ◼   ► It's that kind of thing.

00:33:11 ◼   ► So I suppose there are reasons people would want that.

00:33:15 ◼   ► You know, that's it's a it's a big world.

00:33:17 ◼   ► But but I can't imagine a reason why I would personally use that.

00:33:20 ◼   ► I like I like reminders and I like alarms.

00:33:24 ◼   ► And I think from in my life, those are two separate things.

00:33:28 ◼   ► So I am now aware of these.

00:33:31 ◼   ► My reminder app will not and cannot support them.

00:33:34 ◼   ► And and I I don't really see a need for them myself, but I'm sure people like them.

00:33:40 ◼   ► Yeah, they were suggested to you because this was so long ago when you were talking about

00:33:44 ◼   ► why am I making reminders out for myself?

00:33:46 ◼   ► Why am I unsatisfied with current solutions?

00:33:47 ◼   ► And it was like, well, maybe this will solve the problem.

00:33:50 ◼   ► I think you were talking about like how a reminder will come up and you'll dismiss it

00:33:53 ◼   ► and then forget that it existed and everyone has suggested do and blah, blah, blah.

00:33:56 ◼   ► And that's right around when alarm reminders are coming out then and people were thinking

00:33:59 ◼   ► this will solve your problem.

00:34:00 ◼   ► Like these are harder to ignore because there are literally alarms, but you don't want it.

00:34:04 ◼   ► No, well, because the reality is here's what I would do.

00:34:08 ◼   ► I would hit OK or snooze.

00:34:10 ◼   ► I would be angry because it like made noise and then I would forget it again.

00:34:15 ◼   ► Now, I think I think I have a swipe now, don't you?

00:34:18 ◼   ► You can't just hit a button.

00:34:19 ◼   ► Yeah, now they do like when you test one of these out, it does have a different dismissal

00:34:25 ◼   ► UI than a regular alarm does.

00:34:27 ◼   ► It has like a live activity and it's a whole it's a whole thing.

00:34:30 ◼   ► You have to like, you know, tell it that it's done.

00:34:32 ◼   ► So it is a little bit more involved.

00:34:35 ◼   ► So I can see why people suggested it to me, but it's not for me.

00:34:40 ◼   ► All right.

00:34:41 ◼   ► And then this all was spoken about a long time ago, like I said, but you were very confused

00:34:46 ◼   ► and justifiably.

00:34:47 ◼   ► Oh, no, I was not confused.

00:34:48 ◼   ► I was angry.

00:34:49 ◼   ► OK, fair.

00:34:50 ◼   ► You were angry about the way that snoozing works in reminders.

00:34:55 ◼   ► And Rob Howard wrote in to say the labels in particular.

00:34:58 ◼   ► This is what this is what drove me nuts.

00:35:01 ◼   ► Because so to recap, the problem was, you know, I've been using reminders forever because

00:35:05 ◼   ► that's how I get anything done and the notifications for Apple reminders would say things, you know,

00:35:11 ◼   ► it would be like 8 a.m.

00:35:13 ◼   ► And I get a reminder and I would go to snooze and it would say, remind me this morning.

00:35:16 ◼   ► It's 8 a.m.

00:35:17 ◼   ► What it is this morning.

00:35:19 ◼   ► So it turns out those actually mapped to exact times.

00:35:24 ◼   ► They just didn't want to say.

00:35:25 ◼   ► Exactly.

00:35:26 ◼   ► So Rob Howard writes in the snooze options and reminders are actually pretty consistent.

00:35:30 ◼   ► But Apple being Apple, you have to figure it out for yourself.

00:35:34 ◼   ► Remind me in the morning means it will go off at the next 9 a.m.

00:35:38 ◼   ► Remind me in the afternoon means it will go off at the next 3 p.m.

00:35:42 ◼   ► Remind me this evening means it will go off at the next 6 p.m.

00:35:46 ◼   ► Remind me tomorrow will go off at the originally scheduled time, but tomorrow.

00:35:50 ◼   ► So Rob writes, yes, this does mean if a reminder goes off at 2.57 p.m.

00:35:55 ◼   ► and you say, remind me this afternoon, it will go off three minutes later.

00:35:58 ◼   ► Yeah, this like, and can I just say, morning being 9 a.m.

00:36:03 ◼   ► And afternoon being 3 p.m., you're California showing Apple.

00:36:07 ◼   ► Yeah, very true.

00:36:09 ◼   ► All right.

00:36:10 ◼   ► And then with iOS 6, why do I keep saying iOS 6?

00:36:13 ◼   ► iOS 26.5.

00:36:16 ◼   ► There we go.

00:36:16 ◼   ► We got there, everyone.

00:36:17 ◼   ► There were a bunch of changes around this.

00:36:19 ◼   ► And Ryan Christoffel writes for 9 to 5 Mac, as discovered by Aaron Paris, Apple has updated

00:36:23 ◼   ► the language for its snoozing options in iOS 26.5 to make very clear what time a reminder

00:36:28 ◼   ► will pop back up.

00:36:29 ◼   ► For example, here are the snoozing options I saw this morning in iOS 26.5.

00:36:34 ◼   ► Remind me in one hour, remind me at 3 p.m., or remind me tomorrow.

00:36:37 ◼   ► Additionally, Ryan writes, the second option changes based on the time of day.

00:36:42 ◼   ► So you'll see the 3 p.m. language change if it's not currently morning.

00:36:45 ◼   ► For example, in the evening, you'll see an option that snoozes until tomorrow at 9 a.m.

00:36:49 ◼   ► See, was that so hard, Apple?

00:36:51 ◼   ► It only took, what, five, six years?

00:36:53 ◼   ► I don't know how long these options have been this bad.

00:36:55 ◼   ► I think much longer.

00:36:56 ◼   ► Like, it's been so long, and like, you just wonder, like, the original, you know, they

00:37:00 ◼   ► came up with this, maybe in the first version of Reminders that had this feature, and they

00:37:03 ◼   ► said, well, what should the text say?

00:37:05 ◼   ► And it's like, well, we don't want to be so precise, and people might be picky about it.

00:37:08 ◼   ► So let's just say morning, afternoon, evening, and tomorrow, and we'll just pick times, and

00:37:11 ◼   ► it will be fine.

00:37:12 ◼   ► And how many years does it take of literally billions of people using this feature, and all

00:37:18 ◼   ► of them having no idea what these things, no one would guess the behavior, because the behavior

00:37:22 ◼   ► is bad and doesn't make any sense.

00:37:25 ◼   ► And you would think, like, after the years and years of confusion, they would like, why

00:37:28 ◼   ► don't we just say when it's going to, I mean, we have limited options.

00:37:32 ◼   ► Obviously, it might be better to have more flexible options, and I know there's a way to customize

00:37:35 ◼   ► it.

00:37:35 ◼   ► You can go into it like there are, but like, we're going to give some quick options.

00:37:37 ◼   ► Why don't we just say what they are?

00:37:39 ◼   ► Remind me one hour.

00:37:40 ◼   ► Remind me at 3 p.m.

00:37:41 ◼   ► Remind me tomorrow at 9 a.m.

00:37:42 ◼   ► See, was that so hard?

00:37:44 ◼   ► And by the way, look, I, you know, I'm a very humble person.

00:37:49 ◼   ► I'm taking full credit for this.

00:37:51 ◼   ► We did a podcast, and then two weeks later, iOS 26.5 fixed it.

00:37:56 ◼   ► Well, because I've been complaining about this for months, and no, I've never heard anybody

00:37:59 ◼   ► else complain about this, and I've complained about it very aggressively for the last couple

00:38:02 ◼   ► of months.

00:38:03 ◼   ► I've complained about it within my household.

00:38:05 ◼   ► That's for sure.

00:38:06 ◼   ► I mean, look, the whole world has been subject to these terrible labels forever.

00:38:10 ◼   ► I'm sure people have complained about it just idly to themselves, but yeah, but I, because

00:38:15 ◼   ► this is like my one of one of my reasons for making my own reminder app was that those snooze

00:38:19 ◼   ► notification options drove me so nuts because I just never knew what they meant.

00:38:23 ◼   ► And it would always seem like, again, it would be like, you know, it would be 2 30 p.m.

00:38:27 ◼   ► It would say, remind me this afternoon.

00:38:28 ◼   ► What does that mean?

00:38:29 ◼   ► You know, and it turns out it meant 3 p.m.

00:38:31 ◼   ► You have to pause and think about it.

00:38:33 ◼   ► Like it just has like a, it's like a thinking hitch, you know?

00:38:35 ◼   ► Right, exactly.

00:38:37 ◼   ► So I am still happy that I'm making my own reminding app because I'm finding lots of

00:38:42 ◼   ► other nice little customizations that make my life, that make it work the way it fits me.

00:38:47 ◼   ► And I don't know if anybody else will ever use this app.

00:38:50 ◼   ► I do plan to release it, as I said, but I'm making it to fit me.

00:38:54 ◼   ► And it's pretty opinionated in certain ways as a result to surprise nobody.

00:39:00 ◼   ► So we'll see about that.

00:39:03 ◼   ► But anyway, I'm glad to see Apple is, is like kind of like swallowing a little bit

00:39:09 ◼   ► of their like design purity pride and just giving us like concrete options that tell you

00:39:15 ◼   ► times so that this, so it is more predictable.

00:39:17 ◼   ► I don't think it's design purity.

00:39:19 ◼   ► I think it's neglect.

00:39:20 ◼   ► I think no one has even considered the badness that has existed for many years because it's

00:39:25 ◼   ► just like, well, we're not working on that feature now.

00:39:26 ◼   ► Why would I ever look at it or think about it?

00:39:28 ◼   ► And like, I'm sure Apple employees were annoyed by it too, but it's like, well, that's not on the

00:39:31 ◼   ► schedule. It's not what we're doing.

00:39:32 ◼   ► It's not prioritized.

00:39:33 ◼   ► And it just takes a certain amount of like, can we just actually get any human being ever

00:39:38 ◼   ► to look at this and find the one obvious problem and fix it?

00:39:41 ◼   ► And it's like, especially in this case, it's not just a matter of changing some strings, but

00:39:45 ◼   ► in the grand scheme of things, it's not a huge change.

00:39:47 ◼   ► I mean, I know it's got to be localized and everything, but like on the scale of a company

00:39:51 ◼   ► the size of Apple, I feel like this change did not need to wait the vast number of years

00:39:56 ◼   ► that we had to wait for it.

00:39:57 ◼   ► Yeah. It's one of those things like, I think you're right. It is. I think it is most likely

00:40:01 ◼   ► the result of neglect, but there's so many areas in the common system apps. Like I believe it was

00:40:08 ◼   ► John Gruber was just talking about like how like the contact app is like so ancient and basic,

00:40:13 ◼   ► but you look at, you know, all of Apple's built-in apps, like the ones that the ones that kind of

00:40:17 ◼   ► have like not a lot of attention, like contact is a great example. Certainly reminders, calendar,

00:40:24 ◼   ► I would say, no, it seems to have a pretty good amount of effort, but like the other,

00:40:28 ◼   ► those other ones, they, it just seems like much of the time they have a staff of literally zero

00:40:34 ◼   ► people on them. Maybe in like, in, as Apple is, you know, considering it's, you know, certain

00:40:39 ◼   ► leadership changes and restructurings and things. I would love, one thing I would love is just like

00:40:44 ◼   ► a little bit more of an ability to multitask. And they already look, they have a lot of platforms,

00:40:50 ◼   ► they have a lot of products, like they're, they're multitasking way better now than they used to,

00:40:53 ◼   ► but there still seems like there's so many areas of their products and software that just go years

00:40:59 ◼   ► with seemingly no one touching them. And we've actually heard from people inside that that is

00:41:05 ◼   ► literally the case that like certain things have like literally no staff, or there's like one engineer

00:41:10 ◼   ► who solely by themselves manages like 16 different system apps that are all...

00:41:15 ◼   ► That was my joke about Terminal having 0.15 people on it.

00:41:18 ◼   ► Right. Like that's, we've heard multiple times over the years, that is literally the situation for a lot of

00:41:23 ◼   ► these apps, that there really isn't anybody working on them, because it seems like, you know,

00:41:28 ◼   ► for whatever reason, the internal structures, that, that is where the intent, the incentives,

00:41:32 ◼   ► that's what they create, is that kind of situation. And I would love for, for that to change over time.

00:41:37 ◼   ► It's like, imagine, imagine how much better the basic system apps, like Reminders and Calendar and

00:41:43 ◼   ► stuff like that, like, imagine how much, how much better they could be if they had even one full-time

00:41:49 ◼   ► person each. Because it seems like they don't.

00:41:52 ◼   ► Whose only job was to make that app better, and not by implementing the new feature of the month,

00:41:57 ◼   ► not by adding AI to it, but instead, you know, whatever the existing functionality is,

00:42:02 ◼   ► find the parts of it that didn't work so well last year, fix the bugs, speed it up, blah, blah.

00:42:07 ◼   ► And in this case, like, in the case of Contacts on macOS,

00:42:10 ◼   ► I almost wish there were zero people on it, because whatever fraction of a person

00:42:14 ◼   ► did mess with Contacts for Tahoe, just made it worse.

00:42:18 ◼   ► Like, it's almost worse to, like, understaff it, and then require them to make changes

00:42:22 ◼   ► to, like, liquid glassify it. Like, the Contacts app got worse in Tahoe.

00:42:25 ◼   ► It is uglier, it is harder to use, and it has either the same number of features

00:42:29 ◼   ► or fewer features, depending on how you look at it.

00:42:31 ◼   ► That's not good. Like, it would have been better if they just left it untouched.

00:42:34 ◼   ► But it would be even better if every year it got a little bit better.

00:42:37 ◼   ► Like, we like to, I mean, this is weird, because I don't know if the economics of everything works,

00:42:41 ◼   ► but we like to think of, like, these apps, like, well, if that was an indie app,

00:42:44 ◼   ► the indie would be busting their butt every year to keep up with the OS changes,

00:42:48 ◼   ► and to implement new features, and to fix bugs, and to find the parts that their users are confused about,

00:42:52 ◼   ► and improve them, and blah, blah, blah.

00:42:53 ◼   ► If you have a solo indie developer for every app, would that break the bank at Apple?

00:42:58 ◼   ► Because that's how we conceptualize it. But that's, as you just pointed out, Marco,

00:43:01 ◼   ► that's not how they do it.

00:43:02 ◼   ► They don't put one indie developer per small app on each OS, I guess,

00:43:07 ◼   ► because they just think it's a poor use of resources.

00:43:09 ◼   ► And I would argue that it would be an amazing use of resources if everything got better everywhere

00:43:14 ◼   ► every year in small ways.

00:43:15 ◼   ► And then you have a separate team.

00:43:16 ◼   ► I'm like, okay, well, the big feature this year is you got to do Apple Intelligence integration.

00:43:20 ◼   ► That would be separate from the single indie app developer who's just there fixing bugs,

00:43:25 ◼   ► improving performance, and finding the parts of the app that are confusing,

00:43:28 ◼   ► and making them less confusing.

00:43:29 ◼   ► Yeah, like, you know, you look at something like I saw Flexibits,

00:43:33 ◼   ► who makes Fantasticality, just celebrated, I believe, their 15th birthday.

00:43:36 ◼   ► Look at something like Fantasticality, this amazing calendar app that was made,

00:43:40 ◼   ► I don't know how big they are now, but certainly originally they were a pretty small company.

00:43:43 ◼   ► I think it was like, you know, just a few people.

00:43:46 ◼   ► You know, that's an amazing app, tons of amazing features, loved by so many people,

00:43:51 ◼   ► really hits so many needs better than Apple's app.

00:43:54 ◼   ► And that was made by like a few people, you know, forever ago.

00:43:57 ◼   ► I believe the same company.

00:43:58 ◼   ► Don't they also make Cardhop?

00:44:00 ◼   ► Is that their account, their contacts app?

00:44:02 ◼   ► I believe that's right.

00:44:02 ◼   ► Also, it's like a better contacts app.

00:44:05 ◼   ► You know, that's another big thing.

00:44:07 ◼   ► Look at how many people make, believe me,

00:44:09 ◼   ► As I'm finding, just as a quick aside here,

00:44:13 ◼   ► I've been trying to come up with a backup name for my Reminder app,

00:44:18 ◼   ► because I'm pretty sure Apple probably won't let me call it Reminder.

00:44:21 ◼   ► Trying to come up with a name for a to-do app in the App Store in 2026.

00:44:28 ◼   ► There's only a few of them.

00:44:29 ◼   ► It is comical.

00:44:31 ◼   ► Like, every name is taken.

00:44:34 ◼   ► Or I'll go down like a route in my head.

00:44:38 ◼   ► I'll be like, like, I was driving home the other day from picking up my kid,

00:44:40 ◼   ► and I, oh, let's see.

00:44:42 ◼   ► What about an app that helps you remember?

00:44:43 ◼   ► What animals help you remember?

00:44:46 ◼   ► Oh, elephants.

00:44:46 ◼   ► Oh, I just reinvented Evernote.

00:44:48 ◼   ► No one's ever thought of that before.

00:44:50 ◼   ► Yeah, like, literally every idea I have,

00:44:52 ◼   ► it leads me right into an app that already exists.

00:44:55 ◼   ► Because as it turns out,

00:44:57 ◼   ► there are many Reminding and to-do and productivity apps.

00:44:59 ◼   ► You've got to use the, you know,

00:45:00 ◼   ► the passphrase, password strategy,

00:45:03 ◼   ► and go with, you know,

00:45:03 ◼   ► corrects horse battery staple,

00:45:05 ◼   ► because as you add more words,

00:45:06 ◼   ► the combination becomes less and less likely to already exist.

00:45:09 ◼   ► I mean, honestly,

00:45:10 ◼   ► that's what I'm going to have to do,

00:45:12 ◼   ► is like, you know,

00:45:13 ◼   ► some kind of just like totally unrelated word

00:45:16 ◼   ► or word pairing,

00:45:17 ◼   ► you know, one of those hipster brands

00:45:19 ◼   ► like Oak and Moss or whatever,

00:45:20 ◼   ► you know, just something,

00:45:21 ◼   ► just totally non-sequitur words

00:45:24 ◼   ► because everything is taken.

00:45:25 ◼   ► Or you could go the Amazon approach

00:45:27 ◼   ► and just put like a random collection of consonants

00:45:30 ◼   ► with nowhere near enough vowels in there

00:45:33 ◼   ► and just go with that.

00:45:34 ◼   ► Yeah, all caps.

00:45:35 ◼   ► Or you could do the Alexa approach

00:45:37 ◼   ► and just prefix everything with your name,

00:45:39 ◼   ► Marco Reminders.

00:45:40 ◼   ► Yeah, I don't know.

00:45:43 ◼   ► Yeah, anyway, that's,

00:45:44 ◼   ► that's, that's, I hope they just let me call it Reminder

00:45:46 ◼   ► because it's such a good name.

00:45:48 ◼   ► They won't.

00:45:48 ◼   ► They won't.

00:45:49 ◼   ► No, they definitely won't.

00:45:50 ◼   ► And they honestly probably shouldn't.

00:45:51 ◼   ► But it's,

00:45:52 ◼   ► I understand why that's going to be challenging.

00:45:55 ◼   ► Also, you shouldn't call your app that either.

00:45:56 ◼   ► That's also a bad name.

00:45:58 ◼   ► It's a terrible name,

00:45:59 ◼   ► but also an amazing name

00:46:00 ◼   ► because that's what it does.

00:46:01 ◼   ► It reminds you.

00:46:02 ◼   ► It's a great name.

00:46:03 ◼   ► It really isn't, Marco.

00:46:05 ◼   ► I love you.

00:46:05 ◼   ► This is the reverse of the Aliens movie

00:46:07 ◼   ► with the dollar sign for the S.

00:46:08 ◼   ► You're just like,

00:46:09 ◼   ► what if Reminders,

00:46:10 ◼   ► but take off the S.

00:46:11 ◼   ► What if I make a magazine

00:46:12 ◼   ► and call it The Magazine?

00:46:14 ◼   ► Drop the the.

00:46:17 ◼   ► It's cleaner, right?

00:46:18 ◼   ► Or maybe that's the answer.

00:46:19 ◼   ► The Reminders.

00:46:20 ◼   ► That's what you got to do.

00:46:22 ◼   ► The Reminders.

00:46:23 ◼   ► The Reminder.

00:46:24 ◼   ► It's singular.

00:46:25 ◼   ► I like that.

00:46:26 ◼   ► Actually, that's true.

00:46:26 ◼   ► Yeah, The Reminder.

00:46:27 ◼   ► That sounds like a bad

00:46:28 ◼   ► Jason Statham movie.

00:46:29 ◼   ► He doesn't track people down.

00:46:32 ◼   ► He just sends people notifications.

00:46:34 ◼   ► Do you want to be reminded again

00:46:38 ◼   ► this afternoon?

00:46:38 ◼   ► Oh, my gosh.

00:46:41 ◼   ► We are sponsored this episode by Claude.

00:46:44 ◼   ► I've actually used Claude,

00:46:46 ◼   ► I think, seven or eight times today so far.

00:46:48 ◼   ► Claude is the AI for minds

00:46:51 ◼   ► that don't stop at good enough.

00:46:52 ◼   ► It's the collaborator

00:46:53 ◼   ► that actually understands

00:46:55 ◼   ► your entire workflow

00:46:56 ◼   ► and thinks with you.

00:46:57 ◼   ► Whether you're debugging code at midnight

00:46:59 ◼   ► or strategizing your next business move,

00:47:01 ◼   ► Claude extends your thinking

00:47:02 ◼   ► to tackle the problems that matter.

00:47:04 ◼   ► So today,

00:47:05 ◼   ► I was using Claude

00:47:05 ◼   ► in a number of different ways.

00:47:07 ◼   ► First,

00:47:07 ◼   ► I was using Claude code.

00:47:09 ◼   ► Now, this is,

00:47:10 ◼   ► look,

00:47:10 ◼   ► you've probably heard about it already,

00:47:11 ◼   ► let's be honest,

00:47:12 ◼   ► but it runs in your terminal,

00:47:13 ◼   ► it reads your code base,

00:47:15 ◼   ► and it can take on tasks

00:47:16 ◼   ► like writing tests,

00:47:17 ◼   ► which I love

00:47:18 ◼   ► because I don't want to write those myself,

00:47:19 ◼   ► refactoring code,

00:47:21 ◼   ► or here's what I use it for a lot,

00:47:22 ◼   ► debugging.

00:47:23 ◼   ► And you don't have to be

00:47:25 ◼   ► hand-holding it

00:47:26 ◼   ► and walking it through every step

00:47:27 ◼   ► or copying things

00:47:27 ◼   ► and pasting things

00:47:28 ◼   ► back between different windows

00:47:29 ◼   ► or everything.

00:47:30 ◼   ► It's all right there

00:47:30 ◼   ► working in your code with you.

00:47:32 ◼   ► I have found Claude code

00:47:34 ◼   ► can really help me

00:47:35 ◼   ► figure out edge case bugs on things.

00:47:37 ◼   ► Like some algorithm I've written

00:47:38 ◼   ► that like,

00:47:39 ◼   ► I, you know,

00:47:39 ◼   ► I was trying to align

00:47:40 ◼   ► the ad break detection

00:47:42 ◼   ► for overcast

00:47:43 ◼   ► so the transcripts

00:47:44 ◼   ► would line up

00:47:44 ◼   ► with different ads inserted.

00:47:46 ◼   ► I got the algorithm mostly right,

00:47:48 ◼   ► but Claude code found some edge cases

00:47:50 ◼   ► and it fixed them for me.

00:47:52 ◼   ► And I was able to review

00:47:53 ◼   ► all the code it changed.

00:47:54 ◼   ► It wasn't even that much code,

00:47:55 ◼   ► but it's still,

00:47:55 ◼   ► and it made a bunch of tests for me.

00:47:57 ◼   ► It was amazing.

00:47:59 ◼   ► I love using Claude code

00:48:00 ◼   ► for stuff like that

00:48:00 ◼   ► because it's the debugging partner

00:48:02 ◼   ► and the very diligent tester

00:48:04 ◼   ► that I've never had.

00:48:05 ◼   ► And it does it all for me.

00:48:07 ◼   ► So I strongly recommend

00:48:09 ◼   ► check out Claude.

00:48:10 ◼   ► There's so much else

00:48:11 ◼   ► you can do with it.

00:48:11 ◼   ► That's just one example.

00:48:12 ◼   ► There's so many great reasons

00:48:14 ◼   ► to use Claude.

00:48:15 ◼   ► So for problems worth solving,

00:48:17 ◼   ► get started with Claude

00:48:18 ◼   ► at claude.ai slash ATP.

00:48:21 ◼   ► That's claude.ai slash ATP.

00:48:24 ◼   ► And check out Claude Pro,

00:48:26 ◼   ► which includes access

00:48:27 ◼   ► to all the features

00:48:28 ◼   ► that I mentioned,

00:48:29 ◼   ► claude.ai slash ATP.

00:48:32 ◼   ► Thank you so much to Claude

00:48:33 ◼   ► for helping me out

00:48:34 ◼   ► and for sponsoring our show.

00:48:35 ◼   ► Hey, John,

00:48:40 ◼   ► why does everyone hate AI?

00:48:42 ◼   ► This is a topic

00:48:43 ◼   ► that The Verge

00:48:44 ◼   ► has been covering a lot lately

00:48:45 ◼   ► and they're covering it

00:48:47 ◼   ► for a reason.

00:48:47 ◼   ► Like it's in the zeitgeist

00:48:49 ◼   ► and particularly

00:48:49 ◼   ► there's a couple of events

00:48:50 ◼   ► that happened recently

00:48:51 ◼   ► that are just adding

00:48:52 ◼   ► on the pile here.

00:48:53 ◼   ► But I thought we would

00:48:53 ◼   ► just go through

00:48:54 ◼   ► some of the bullet points.

00:48:55 ◼   ► I will preface this

00:48:56 ◼   ► by saying,

00:48:56 ◼   ► I mean,

00:48:58 ◼   ► we're going to talk

00:48:58 ◼   ► about other people's opinions

00:48:59 ◼   ► because there's a lot

00:49:00 ◼   ► of like surveys

00:49:01 ◼   ► and what other people,

00:49:01 ◼   ► mostly Americans,

00:49:02 ◼   ► think about it.

00:49:03 ◼   ► Okay?

00:49:03 ◼   ► And people have their reasons

00:49:05 ◼   ► and they have their opinions

00:49:06 ◼   ► or whatever

00:49:06 ◼   ► and you can't really argue

00:49:07 ◼   ► with their opinions.

00:49:08 ◼   ► It's what they think.

00:49:08 ◼   ► It's interesting for us

00:49:09 ◼   ► to talk about

00:49:10 ◼   ► because we were like,

00:49:10 ◼   ► why do we think

00:49:11 ◼   ► they think that?

00:49:11 ◼   ► and that's what I'm sure

00:49:12 ◼   ► we'll discuss.

00:49:13 ◼   ► But I would say

00:49:14 ◼   ► for myself personally,

00:49:15 ◼   ► I think there are

00:49:16 ◼   ► a huge number

00:49:17 ◼   ► of what I think

00:49:19 ◼   ► are extremely valid reasons

00:49:20 ◼   ► to hit AI.

00:49:21 ◼   ► Despite what we all talk about,

00:49:23 ◼   ► all the things that we like about it

00:49:24 ◼   ► and the things that it's good at

00:49:25 ◼   ► and the things people do.

00:49:26 ◼   ► We just had the last episode

00:49:27 ◼   ► of the Overtime

00:49:27 ◼   ► about non-app developers

00:49:28 ◼   ► making apps

00:49:29 ◼   ► and we've got so much feedback

00:49:30 ◼   ► from other people doing that.

00:49:31 ◼   ► Like just because good exists

00:49:32 ◼   ► doesn't mean it's not also bad exists.

00:49:34 ◼   ► And then the question is,

00:49:34 ◼   ► okay, given the view of the world,

00:49:37 ◼   ► like obviously the things

00:49:38 ◼   ► that loon large in our mind

00:49:39 ◼   ► as developers is like

00:49:40 ◼   ► we're talking about development topics,

00:49:41 ◼   ► which happens to be something

00:49:42 ◼   ► that this AI technology

00:49:43 ◼   ► is actually pretty good at.

00:49:44 ◼   ► But that's not the only thing

00:49:46 ◼   ► people are doing with AI.

00:49:47 ◼   ► And then what about the people

00:49:49 ◼   ► who aren't even using it at all

00:49:50 ◼   ► but just have an opinion on it

00:49:51 ◼   ► based on what they experience

00:49:52 ◼   ► in the world and hear about?

00:49:53 ◼   ► So that's this broader topic.

00:49:55 ◼   ► So even though this is

00:49:56 ◼   ► opinions of other people

00:49:57 ◼   ► and even though we have talked recently

00:49:59 ◼   ► about the useful or fun things

00:50:01 ◼   ► that we're doing with AI

00:50:02 ◼   ► in the particular narrow realm

00:50:03 ◼   ► of programming,

00:50:04 ◼   ► which I think is,

00:50:04 ◼   ► I don't know,

00:50:06 ◼   ► maybe this is a narrow view

00:50:07 ◼   ► because I'm just a developer.

00:50:08 ◼   ► In my opinion,

00:50:09 ◼   ► it's the thing that AI

00:50:10 ◼   ► is the best at,

00:50:11 ◼   ► like LLMs are the best at maybe.

00:50:12 ◼   ► But maybe I'm wrong

00:50:13 ◼   ► because I just have a narrow view.

00:50:14 ◼   ► But either way,

00:50:15 ◼   ► the world of AI

00:50:16 ◼   ► is so much bigger

00:50:17 ◼   ► and lots of people

00:50:19 ◼   ► have negative opinions

00:50:20 ◼   ► about it as we'll see.

00:50:20 ◼   ► Righto.

00:50:21 ◼   ► So Pew Research did a study

00:50:24 ◼   ► and wrote a post about it,

00:50:25 ◼   ► how Americans view AI

00:50:26 ◼   ► and its impact

00:50:27 ◼   ► on people and society.

00:50:29 ◼   ► We'll put a link to this

00:50:30 ◼   ► in a bunch of different graphs

00:50:32 ◼   ► in the show notes.

00:50:33 ◼   ► I'm going to read out

00:50:34 ◼   ► some bullets that John

00:50:35 ◼   ► has extracted from that post.

00:50:37 ◼   ► 50% of U.S. adults

00:50:38 ◼   ► are more concerned

00:50:40 ◼   ► than excited

00:50:40 ◼   ► about the increased use

00:50:42 ◼   ► of AI in daily life.

00:50:44 ◼   ► This is an increase

00:50:45 ◼   ► which is up from 37 to 50

00:50:48 ◼   ► in 2021.

00:50:49 ◼   ► So a lot more people

00:50:51 ◼   ► are saying,

00:50:51 ◼   ► I'm not so sure about this.

00:50:53 ◼   ► Additionally,

00:50:54 ◼   ► about half of U.S. adults

00:50:56 ◼   ► say AI will worsen

00:50:58 ◼   ► people's ability

00:50:59 ◼   ► to think creatively

00:51:00 ◼   ► and form meaningful relationships.

00:51:01 ◼   ► And let me remind you

00:51:03 ◼   ► about our member special.

00:51:04 ◼   ► The vast majority

00:51:05 ◼   ► of U.S. adults

00:51:06 ◼   ► think it is important

00:51:07 ◼   ► to be able to tell

00:51:08 ◼   ► the difference

00:51:08 ◼   ► between AI

00:51:08 ◼   ► and human-generated content,

00:51:10 ◼   ► but few feel confident

00:51:11 ◼   ► that they can.

00:51:12 ◼   ► When I was reading this

00:51:13 ◼   ► and when I was preparing

00:51:14 ◼   ► for the show this morning,

00:51:15 ◼   ► I read that line

00:51:17 ◼   ► and felt like,

00:51:17 ◼   ► I don't think I'm terrible

00:51:19 ◼   ► at figuring out

00:51:20 ◼   ► what's AI and what's not,

00:51:21 ◼   ► but I wouldn't say

00:51:22 ◼   ► I feel particularly

00:51:22 ◼   ► confident about it.

00:51:23 ◼   ► So I'm right there with it.

00:51:25 ◼   ► And decreasingly confident

00:51:26 ◼   ► as days pass.

00:51:27 ◼   ► Yeah, very much so.

00:51:28 ◼   ► Because it doesn't

00:51:29 ◼   ► stay the same.

00:51:29 ◼   ► Yep, absolutely.

00:51:31 ◼   ► All right.

00:51:32 ◼   ► About half of U.S. adults

00:51:34 ◼   ► are highly concerned

00:51:35 ◼   ► that people's ability

00:51:36 ◼   ► to do things on their own

00:51:37 ◼   ► will get worse

00:51:37 ◼   ► because of AI use.

00:51:38 ◼   ► The majority of U.S. adults

00:51:41 ◼   ► rate the risks of AI

00:51:42 ◼   ► for society as high.

00:51:44 ◼   ► Fewer rate the benefits

00:51:45 ◼   ► of AI as high.

00:51:46 ◼   ► And finally, from Pew,

00:51:48 ◼   ► young adults are more likely

00:51:49 ◼   ► than adults 65 and older

00:51:51 ◼   ► to say they've heard about

00:51:52 ◼   ► or interact regularly

00:51:53 ◼   ► with AI.

00:51:55 ◼   ► that makes sense.

00:51:55 ◼   ► Young people using it more.

00:51:57 ◼   ► Again, these are just

00:51:58 ◼   ► people's opinions.

00:51:58 ◼   ► You don't know how informed

00:51:59 ◼   ► their opinions are

00:52:01 ◼   ► or what their opinions

00:52:01 ◼   ► are based on,

00:52:02 ◼   ► but this is just what

00:52:03 ◼   ► they're thinking and feeling.

00:52:04 ◼   ► They're thinking that,

00:52:05 ◼   ► you know,

00:52:06 ◼   ► it seems like it might

00:52:07 ◼   ► cause people to be

00:52:09 ◼   ► de-skilled is the word

00:52:10 ◼   ► that they're throwing

00:52:10 ◼   ► around these days for this

00:52:11 ◼   ► and that it's making

00:52:13 ◼   ► things worse instead of better

00:52:14 ◼   ► and that the potential

00:52:15 ◼   ► downsides are not as good

00:52:17 ◼   ► as the potential upsides.

00:52:18 ◼   ► And again, it's, you know,

00:52:20 ◼   ► if you were in this industry,

00:52:21 ◼   ► which we are not really,

00:52:22 ◼   ► it would be worth thinking

00:52:24 ◼   ► about why people have

00:52:25 ◼   ► these opinions

00:52:26 ◼   ► because part of the problem,

00:52:27 ◼   ► part of the angle

00:52:28 ◼   ► that The Verge has been

00:52:28 ◼   ► taking on this is like,

00:52:29 ◼   ► oh, but they're wrong.

00:52:32 ◼   ► They don't know X, Y, and Z.

00:52:33 ◼   ► And it's like,

00:52:33 ◼   ► it doesn't matter

00:52:34 ◼   ► that they're wrong

00:52:35 ◼   ► if they're wrong,

00:52:36 ◼   ► even if they are wrong.

00:52:37 ◼   ► It matters that they think this

00:52:38 ◼   ► and they're thinking this

00:52:39 ◼   ► for a reason.

00:52:40 ◼   ► Like they're not coming

00:52:41 ◼   ► with these opinions

00:52:41 ◼   ► out of thin air.

00:52:42 ◼   ► They're just so consistent

00:52:43 ◼   ► that there's something

00:52:44 ◼   ► happening in their lives

00:52:46 ◼   ► related to AI

00:52:47 ◼   ► that is giving them

00:52:48 ◼   ► these opinions

00:52:48 ◼   ► in vast numbers

00:52:49 ◼   ► and it just gets worse.

00:52:50 ◼   ► But anyway,

00:52:50 ◼   ► with young people

00:52:51 ◼   ► being more likely

00:52:53 ◼   ► than older adults

00:52:54 ◼   ► to say that they've heard

00:52:55 ◼   ► about interacting

00:52:55 ◼   ► regularly with AI

00:52:57 ◼   ► makes total sense.

00:52:58 ◼   ► Like, yeah,

00:52:58 ◼   ► young people are more

00:52:59 ◼   ► hip to technology.

00:52:59 ◼   ► I'm sure young people

00:53:01 ◼   ► are probably much more

00:53:03 ◼   ► into AI than older people.

00:53:04 ◼   ► Well, they use it more,

00:53:05 ◼   ► but...

00:53:06 ◼   ► Right.

00:53:07 ◼   ► So The Verge,

00:53:08 ◼   ► as you said,

00:53:08 ◼   ► have been banging

00:53:09 ◼   ► this drum for a while.

00:53:10 ◼   ► And so a post

00:53:11 ◼   ► from the end of April

00:53:12 ◼   ► of this year,

00:53:12 ◼   ► Janice Rose

00:53:13 ◼   ► at The Verge writes,

00:53:14 ◼   ► far from the stereotype

00:53:16 ◼   ► of lazy young people

00:53:16 ◼   ► looking for shortcuts,

00:53:17 ◼   ► Gen Zers

00:53:18 ◼   ► have had some of the loudest

00:53:20 ◼   ► and most detailed

00:53:21 ◼   ► objections to generative AI use.

00:53:23 ◼   ► Their attitudes

00:53:23 ◼   ► also reflected

00:53:24 ◼   ► much wider backlash

00:53:25 ◼   ► against AI

00:53:26 ◼   ► and the tech industry

00:53:27 ◼   ► in general,

00:53:28 ◼   ► which has recently resulted

00:53:29 ◼   ► in a nonpartisan movement

00:53:30 ◼   ► against data centers

00:53:31 ◼   ► across the country

00:53:32 ◼   ► and threatened both CEOs

00:53:33 ◼   ► and politicians

00:53:34 ◼   ► supportive of Silicon Valley's

00:53:35 ◼   ► AI frenzy.

00:53:36 ◼   ► According to a recent

00:53:38 ◼   ► Harvard-Gallup study,

00:53:39 ◼   ► 74% of young adults

00:53:41 ◼   ► surveyed in the United States

00:53:43 ◼   ► said they use a chatbot

00:53:43 ◼   ► at least once a month.

00:53:45 ◼   ► At the same time,

00:53:46 ◼   ► 79% of those surveyed

00:53:48 ◼   ► by Gallup,

00:53:48 ◼   ► quote,

00:53:48 ◼   ► expressed concern

00:53:49 ◼   ► that AI makes people lazier.

00:53:51 ◼   ► And 65% said

00:53:54 ◼   ► that using chatbots,

00:53:55 ◼   ► quote,

00:53:55 ◼   ► promotes instant gratification,

00:53:57 ◼   ► not real understanding,

00:53:58 ◼   ► and prevents people

00:53:59 ◼   ► from engaging with ideas

00:54:00 ◼   ► in a critical

00:54:01 ◼   ► or meaningful way.

00:54:02 ◼   ► And in a more recent

00:54:04 ◼   ► Gallup poll,

00:54:04 ◼   ► Gen Z's opinion

00:54:05 ◼   ► of AI tools

00:54:06 ◼   ► hit a new low.

00:54:07 ◼   ► Only 18% now say

00:54:09 ◼   ► they are hopeful

00:54:09 ◼   ► about the technology,

00:54:10 ◼   ► down from 27%

00:54:11 ◼   ► last year.

00:54:12 ◼   ► And only 22%

00:54:13 ◼   ► say they are excited,

00:54:14 ◼   ► down from 36%.

00:54:15 ◼   ► The number of Gen Z workers

00:54:17 ◼   ► who think AI's risks

00:54:18 ◼   ► outweigh its benefits

00:54:19 ◼   ► has also increased

00:54:20 ◼   ► over the past year

00:54:21 ◼   ► by 11 points

00:54:22 ◼   ► to almost 50%.

00:54:23 ◼   ► I think the deltas

00:54:24 ◼   ► are as important here.

00:54:24 ◼   ► This is from April 2026,

00:54:26 ◼   ► this article.

00:54:27 ◼   ► So it's not as if,

00:54:28 ◼   ► like,

00:54:28 ◼   ► the headline here

00:54:30 ◼   ► is young people

00:54:31 ◼   ► are using AI more,

00:54:32 ◼   ► they hate it more.

00:54:33 ◼   ► Like,

00:54:34 ◼   ► AI use is increasing.

00:54:35 ◼   ► Like,

00:54:35 ◼   ► we all see that

00:54:36 ◼   ► young people

00:54:36 ◼   ► are using it

00:54:37 ◼   ► more than old people

00:54:38 ◼   ► and year over year

00:54:38 ◼   ► more young people

00:54:39 ◼   ► are using it

00:54:40 ◼   ► and they're using it more.

00:54:41 ◼   ► And of a one-year gap,

00:54:43 ◼   ► they went from

00:54:44 ◼   ► 20% saying

00:54:45 ◼   ► they're hopeful

00:54:45 ◼   ► about the technology,

00:54:46 ◼   ► which is already not great.

00:54:47 ◼   ► That's last year.

00:54:48 ◼   ► And then it goes down

00:54:49 ◼   ► more to 18.

00:54:50 ◼   ► Only 18%

00:54:51 ◼   ► they're hopeful

00:54:52 ◼   ► about the technology.

00:54:53 ◼   ► These are rough numbers

00:54:56 ◼   ► for the public perception

00:54:58 ◼   ► of AI.

00:54:58 ◼   ► Among the group

00:54:59 ◼   ► that you would think

00:55:00 ◼   ► would be the most receptive

00:55:01 ◼   ► to it,

00:55:02 ◼   ► young people

00:55:03 ◼   ► who are using it

00:55:03 ◼   ► more than other people.

00:55:04 ◼   ► But they super don't like it.

00:55:06 ◼   ► The fear that chatbot tools

00:55:08 ◼   ► will lead to a permanent

00:55:09 ◼   ► loss of critical thinking skills

00:55:10 ◼   ► ranks high among the worries

00:55:12 ◼   ► held by young people

00:55:13 ◼   ► about the technology.

00:55:14 ◼   ► It's also backed up by data.

00:55:15 ◼   ► A recent study

00:55:16 ◼   ► from the MIT Media Lab

00:55:17 ◼   ► found that EEG scans

00:55:19 ◼   ► of the human brain

00:55:19 ◼   ► showed decreased activity

00:55:20 ◼   ► in people who have been

00:55:21 ◼   ► writing essays

00:55:22 ◼   ► using AI tools.

00:55:23 ◼   ► Other research has found

00:55:24 ◼   ► that this process,

00:55:25 ◼   ► known as cognitive offloading,

00:55:27 ◼   ► has a wide range

00:55:28 ◼   ► of negative impacts

00:55:29 ◼   ► on humans,

00:55:29 ◼   ► including diminishing

00:55:30 ◼   ► people's skepticism

00:55:31 ◼   ► and their ability

00:55:32 ◼   ► to discern truth

00:55:33 ◼   ► from deception,

00:55:34 ◼   ► leading to heightened

00:55:35 ◼   ► manipulation

00:55:36 ◼   ► and weakened

00:55:37 ◼   ► democratic decision-making

00:55:38 ◼   ► processes.

00:55:39 ◼   ► The fact that so many

00:55:40 ◼   ► young people are well aware

00:55:42 ◼   ► of these dangers

00:55:42 ◼   ► even as they make use

00:55:43 ◼   ► of the tools

00:55:44 ◼   ► shows that they aren't

00:55:45 ◼   ► buying the hype

00:55:45 ◼   ► of AI boosters

00:55:46 ◼   ► like OpenAI's

00:55:47 ◼   ► Sam Altman.

00:55:47 ◼   ► There's one other

00:55:49 ◼   ► explanation for Gen Z's

00:55:50 ◼   ► stance on AI tools

00:55:51 ◼   ► that isn't measured

00:55:52 ◼   ► in data points.

00:55:52 ◼   ► AI use has become

00:55:53 ◼   ► culturally toxic

00:55:54 ◼   ► and many young people,

00:55:55 ◼   ► like their older counterparts,

00:55:56 ◼   ► won't admit to using it

00:55:58 ◼   ► out of social shame.

00:55:59 ◼   ► Yeah, this is one of those

00:56:01 ◼   ► things where, like,

00:56:01 ◼   ► if, speaking of Sam Altman

00:56:04 ◼   ► and OpenAI,

00:56:05 ◼   ► and we'll get to them,

00:56:06 ◼   ► I'm sure,

00:56:06 ◼   ► as we discuss this

00:56:07 ◼   ► a little bit more,

00:56:08 ◼   ► but, like,

00:56:08 ◼   ► for the people

00:56:10 ◼   ► in the industry

00:56:10 ◼   ► who are announcing

00:56:12 ◼   ► products

00:56:12 ◼   ► and giving speeches

00:56:14 ◼   ► and doing interviews

00:56:15 ◼   ► about their current

00:56:17 ◼   ► technology

00:56:17 ◼   ► and the promise

00:56:18 ◼   ► of their future

00:56:18 ◼   ► technology

00:56:19 ◼   ► and everything,

00:56:19 ◼   ► it's really easy

00:56:21 ◼   ► for them

00:56:22 ◼   ► to not have

00:56:24 ◼   ► their finger

00:56:24 ◼   ► on the pulse

00:56:25 ◼   ► of what the world

00:56:26 ◼   ► broadly,

00:56:26 ◼   ► what impression

00:56:28 ◼   ► the world is broadly

00:56:29 ◼   ► getting from their tech

00:56:30 ◼   ► because

00:56:31 ◼   ► at this point

00:56:32 ◼   ► in their growth,

00:56:33 ◼   ► it's like,

00:56:33 ◼   ► we need to get funding,

00:56:34 ◼   ► we need to scale,

00:56:35 ◼   ► we need to fiercely

00:56:36 ◼   ► battle with our competitors,

00:56:37 ◼   ► we've got to have

00:56:38 ◼   ► the best model,

00:56:38 ◼   ► we've got to add this feature,

00:56:39 ◼   ► we've got to do this thing,

00:56:40 ◼   ► and it's easy for them

00:56:41 ◼   ► to also focus on the realms

00:56:43 ◼   ► where they've got customers,

00:56:45 ◼   ► they're collecting money,

00:56:46 ◼   ► people love it,

00:56:46 ◼   ► like the coding agents

00:56:47 ◼   ► and everything,

00:56:48 ◼   ► and Anthropic

00:56:49 ◼   ► and Claude Code

00:56:49 ◼   ► and all their government

00:56:51 ◼   ► contracts and the battles,

00:56:52 ◼   ► like,

00:56:52 ◼   ► there's so much for them

00:56:53 ◼   ► to focus on,

00:56:53 ◼   ► it's easy in this stage

00:56:55 ◼   ► in their development

00:56:56 ◼   ► to not really be thinking about,

00:56:58 ◼   ► but what does everyone

00:56:59 ◼   ► think of us?

00:57:00 ◼   ► because it's almost

00:57:01 ◼   ► like not relevant to them

00:57:02 ◼   ► and they just assume,

00:57:03 ◼   ► well,

00:57:03 ◼   ► everyone loves technology

00:57:04 ◼   ► and like,

00:57:05 ◼   ► if old people are scared of it

00:57:06 ◼   ► because they're like,

00:57:06 ◼   ► oh no,

00:57:07 ◼   ► it's going to,

00:57:07 ◼   ► you know,

00:57:07 ◼   ► do something bad,

00:57:08 ◼   ► it'll be fine,

00:57:09 ◼   ► the young people

00:57:09 ◼   ► will pick it up

00:57:10 ◼   ► or whatever,

00:57:10 ◼   ► but like,

00:57:11 ◼   ► I feel like

00:57:12 ◼   ► the older people

00:57:13 ◼   ► and the industry people

00:57:14 ◼   ► are failing

00:57:16 ◼   ► to see what's happening

00:57:18 ◼   ► as evidenced

00:57:19 ◼   ► by two coincidentally

00:57:21 ◼   ► very recent events

00:57:22 ◼   ► where some adults

00:57:24 ◼   ► totally did not,

00:57:26 ◼   ► as we say,

00:57:26 ◼   ► read the room

00:57:27 ◼   ► in a catastrophic way.

00:57:29 ◼   ► So,

00:57:30 ◼   ► 404 Media reported

00:57:31 ◼   ► both of these stories

00:57:32 ◼   ► on May 11,

00:57:33 ◼   ► speaking to graduates

00:57:34 ◼   ► of the University

00:57:35 ◼   ► of Central Florida,

00:57:35 ◼   ► commencement speaker

00:57:36 ◼   ► Gloria Caulfield,

00:57:37 ◼   ► vice president

00:57:38 ◼   ► of strategic alliances

00:57:39 ◼   ► at the Tavistock Group,

00:57:40 ◼   ► told graduating humanity

00:57:42 ◼   ► students that AI

00:57:42 ◼   ► is the next industrial revolution

00:57:44 ◼   ► and was met with

00:57:45 ◼   ► thousands of booing graduates.

00:57:47 ◼   ► So,

00:57:47 ◼   ► this is,

00:57:47 ◼   ► this is such a weird,

00:57:49 ◼   ► like,

00:57:49 ◼   ► phenomenon,

00:57:50 ◼   ► like,

00:57:50 ◼   ► as far as I'm aware,

00:57:53 ◼   ► this is not a,

00:57:55 ◼   ► like,

00:57:55 ◼   ► a hot button political issue

00:57:56 ◼   ► where students

00:57:57 ◼   ► arranged a protest

00:57:58 ◼   ► because they knew

00:57:58 ◼   ► the speaker was coming

00:57:59 ◼   ► and was going to say this

00:58:00 ◼   ► and we're going to protest

00:58:01 ◼   ► because they're talking about,

00:58:02 ◼   ► like,

00:58:03 ◼   ► I don't know,

00:58:03 ◼   ► some,

00:58:03 ◼   ► some,

00:58:04 ◼   ► like,

00:58:04 ◼   ► selling arms to people

00:58:05 ◼   ► or whatever

00:58:05 ◼   ► and they're going to protest

00:58:06 ◼   ► against,

00:58:06 ◼   ► right?

00:58:06 ◼   ► Like,

00:58:06 ◼   ► it's not like,

00:58:07 ◼   ► you know,

00:58:08 ◼   ► we,

00:58:09 ◼   ► we,

00:58:10 ◼   ► a group of students

00:58:11 ◼   ► are against this thing.

00:58:12 ◼   ► You invited a speaker

00:58:12 ◼   ► who's about this thing

00:58:13 ◼   ► and they're going to come here.

00:58:14 ◼   ► If you watch the video

00:58:15 ◼   ► and listen to the audio,

00:58:16 ◼   ► it seems to me

00:58:18 ◼   ► to essentially be

00:58:19 ◼   ► a mostly spontaneous thing

00:58:22 ◼   ► where a couple of people

00:58:23 ◼   ► who are against AI

00:58:23 ◼   ► started booing

00:58:24 ◼   ► and then everyone

00:58:25 ◼   ► just joined in

00:58:25 ◼   ► but they're like,

00:58:26 ◼   ► you know what?

00:58:26 ◼   ► Yeah,

00:58:27 ◼   ► screw AI.

00:58:27 ◼   ► And this person,

00:58:28 ◼   ► to be clear,

00:58:29 ◼   ► like,

00:58:29 ◼   ► I don't,

00:58:30 ◼   ► like,

00:58:30 ◼   ► I don't think

00:58:31 ◼   ► they were an AI booster.

00:58:32 ◼   ► They were just mentioning

00:58:33 ◼   ► it offhand

00:58:33 ◼   ► because they're like,

00:58:34 ◼   ► this is the thing

00:58:34 ◼   ► I'm talking about.

00:58:34 ◼   ► It's the new thing

00:58:35 ◼   ► in technology

00:58:35 ◼   ► and these are graduating kids

00:58:37 ◼   ► and they're probably like,

00:58:37 ◼   ► they didn't give it a,

00:58:38 ◼   ► probably didn't give it

00:58:39 ◼   ► a second thought

00:58:40 ◼   ► to their offhanded

00:58:41 ◼   ► mention of AI

00:58:42 ◼   ► as like,

00:58:43 ◼   ► oh,

00:58:43 ◼   ► it's an up and coming thing.

00:58:44 ◼   ► Like,

00:58:44 ◼   ► everyone agrees with that,

00:58:45 ◼   ► right?

00:58:45 ◼   ► And I'm giving you

00:58:46 ◼   ► a commencement address.

00:58:47 ◼   ► Like,

00:58:47 ◼   ► like,

00:58:48 ◼   ► I don't think anyone

00:58:49 ◼   ► would have flagged that

00:58:55 ◼   ► understand how AI

00:58:56 ◼   ► is currently being

00:58:57 ◼   ► perceived and received

00:58:58 ◼   ► by the public.

00:59:00 ◼   ► And so they get up

00:59:01 ◼   ► in front of a bunch

00:59:01 ◼   ► of students

00:59:02 ◼   ► and you can see

00:59:03 ◼   ► the speaker,

00:59:03 ◼   ► like,

00:59:04 ◼   ► she's just

00:59:04 ◼   ► did not expect this.

00:59:06 ◼   ► And so I feel like

00:59:07 ◼   ► it was a genuine response.

00:59:09 ◼   ► It was essentially

00:59:10 ◼   ► spontaneous.

00:59:10 ◼   ► The booing grew

00:59:12 ◼   ► because it tapped

00:59:13 ◼   ► into something

00:59:13 ◼   ► that people were feeling

00:59:14 ◼   ► but not saying.

00:59:15 ◼   ► And the speaker was like,

00:59:16 ◼   ► what the,

00:59:17 ◼   ► what's going on?

00:59:18 ◼   ► I didn't think,

00:59:18 ◼   ► this is not a controversial

00:59:19 ◼   ► section of my talk.

00:59:23 ◼   ► Right-o.

00:59:24 ◼   ► And then,

00:59:25 ◼   ► so again,

00:59:25 ◼   ► that was on May 11th.

00:59:26 ◼   ► So May 17th,

00:59:28 ◼   ► former Google CEO

00:59:30 ◼   ► Eric Schmidt

00:59:31 ◼   ► was booed

00:59:32 ◼   ► throughout his

00:59:33 ◼   ► commencement speech

00:59:33 ◼   ► at the University

00:59:34 ◼   ► of Arizona

00:59:34 ◼   ► for his praise of AI.

00:59:35 ◼   ► This comes just a week

00:59:36 ◼   ► after another

00:59:37 ◼   ► commencement speaker

00:59:38 ◼   ► who also mentioned AI

00:59:39 ◼   ► was booed

00:59:39 ◼   ► at a school in Florida.

00:59:40 ◼   ► So there's a lot

00:59:41 ◼   ► of reasons to boo

00:59:42 ◼   ► Eric Schmidt,

00:59:43 ◼   ► to be fair.

00:59:43 ◼   ► like,

00:59:44 ◼   ► because,

00:59:45 ◼   ► but just,

00:59:46 ◼   ► I mean,

00:59:46 ◼   ► this is one where

00:59:47 ◼   ► you know the guy

00:59:47 ◼   ► is going to come

00:59:48 ◼   ► and he's going to

00:59:48 ◼   ► talk about AI.

00:59:49 ◼   ► So maybe these people

00:59:50 ◼   ► were prepared

00:59:50 ◼   ► and obviously

00:59:51 ◼   ► they probably saw

00:59:51 ◼   ► the video on the

00:59:52 ◼   ► internet of the other

00:59:52 ◼   ► person being booed

00:59:53 ◼   ► but the kids

00:59:55 ◼   ► are like,

00:59:55 ◼   ► yeah,

00:59:56 ◼   ► we should do that.

00:59:57 ◼   ► We should boo them

00:59:58 ◼   ► because we want them

00:59:58 ◼   ► to know

00:59:59 ◼   ► we don't like

01:00:00 ◼   ► what's going on.

01:00:01 ◼   ► It's not,

01:00:02 ◼   ► we are not hopeful

01:00:03 ◼   ► about the,

01:00:03 ◼   ► 18% of us

01:00:04 ◼   ► are hopeful

01:00:05 ◼   ► about the technology.

01:00:06 ◼   ► That's a low percent.

01:00:07 ◼   ► So don't talk about it.

01:00:09 ◼   ► We don't want to hear

01:00:09 ◼   ► about it.

01:00:10 ◼   ► We don't want to hear

01:00:10 ◼   ► about your stupid AI.

01:00:11 ◼   ► Even though they're

01:00:12 ◼   ► all using it

01:00:13 ◼   ► and like they realize

01:00:14 ◼   ► it is like a thing

01:00:15 ◼   ► but like they don't

01:00:16 ◼   ► like it.

01:00:17 ◼   ► They're not happy

01:00:17 ◼   ► about it

01:00:18 ◼   ► and I think probably

01:00:19 ◼   ► Eric Schmidt was

01:00:20 ◼   ► surprised that he

01:00:20 ◼   ► shouldn't have been

01:00:20 ◼   ► because again,

01:00:21 ◼   ► there are many reasons

01:00:21 ◼   ► that dislike him.

01:00:22 ◼   ► So maybe he should

01:00:23 ◼   ► have expected

01:00:23 ◼   ► to be booed

01:00:24 ◼   ► but this was just

01:00:26 ◼   ► such an amazing

01:00:27 ◼   ► coincidence of events

01:00:29 ◼   ► where I just

01:00:31 ◼   ► went to my son's

01:00:32 ◼   ► commencement address

01:00:33 ◼   ► where there was

01:00:33 ◼   ► no booing by the way

01:00:34 ◼   ► but mentions of that

01:00:36 ◼   ► technology and things

01:00:37 ◼   ► that got reactions

01:00:38 ◼   ► from the crowd

01:00:38 ◼   ► is a good way

01:00:39 ◼   ► to gauge

01:00:40 ◼   ► how are the kids

01:00:41 ◼   ► feeling about

01:00:42 ◼   ► what the industry

01:00:43 ◼   ► is doing

01:00:44 ◼   ► and they don't

01:00:44 ◼   ► feel good about this.

01:00:45 ◼   ► Yeah, seemingly not.

01:00:47 ◼   ► And then Joanna Stern

01:00:48 ◼   ► has recently left

01:00:49 ◼   ► the Wall Street Journal,

01:00:50 ◼   ► is that right?

01:00:51 ◼   ► And started

01:00:52 ◼   ► The New Things

01:00:53 ◼   ► and there is

01:00:54 ◼   ► a post about this

01:00:55 ◼   ► that she put up today

01:00:56 ◼   ► as well as a YouTube video

01:00:57 ◼   ► which we will link

01:00:57 ◼   ► in the show notes as well.

01:00:58 ◼   ► And in there,

01:01:00 ◼   ► she apparently talked,

01:01:02 ◼   ► I don't know,

01:01:02 ◼   ► John, you were the one

01:01:02 ◼   ► who took a look at this.

01:01:03 ◼   ► She talked to a recent

01:01:04 ◼   ► UCF journalism grad,

01:01:06 ◼   ► is that right?

01:01:06 ◼   ► Yeah, it was just like

01:01:07 ◼   ► let's grab one person

01:01:08 ◼   ► who's a student of

01:01:09 ◼   ► who had recently graduated

01:01:10 ◼   ► and talked to them

01:01:11 ◼   ► about how they feel as AI

01:01:12 ◼   ► to give like a human face

01:01:13 ◼   ► to this type of opinion.

01:01:14 ◼   ► You can watch

01:01:14 ◼   ► just like a YouTube short

01:01:15 ◼   ► or whatever.

01:01:16 ◼   ► This is just an excuse

01:01:16 ◼   ► to link to Joanna Stern's

01:01:17 ◼   ► new thing that you should

01:01:18 ◼   ► subscribe to.

01:01:19 ◼   ► The domain is

01:01:20 ◼   ► newthings.thenewthings.com.

01:01:22 ◼   ► I think the actual

01:01:24 ◼   ► branding of the newsletter

01:01:25 ◼   ► is New Things

01:01:26 ◼   ► with Joanna Stern.

01:01:26 ◼   ► But anyway,

01:01:27 ◼   ► if you want to see

01:01:28 ◼   ► what she's up to,

01:01:29 ◼   ► you can subscribe

01:01:30 ◼   ► to her newsletter again.

01:01:31 ◼   ► Not sponsored,

01:01:31 ◼   ► I just think she's

01:01:32 ◼   ► a fun person to watch

01:01:33 ◼   ► and she makes fun content.

01:01:34 ◼   ► Additionally,

01:01:35 ◼   ► there's things like

01:01:37 ◼   ► the AI Friend Necklace

01:01:39 ◼   ► on The Daily Show,

01:01:39 ◼   ► which I haven't seen

01:01:42 ◼   ► The Daily Show

01:01:42 ◼   ► in a long time.

01:01:42 ◼   ► I know their reporters

01:01:45 ◼   ► are, you know,

01:01:46 ◼   ► obviously comedians

01:01:47 ◼   ► and whatnot,

01:01:47 ◼   ► but were the other

01:01:48 ◼   ► two numbskulls on this,

01:01:49 ◼   ► were those actors

01:01:51 ◼   ► or these real honest people?

01:01:52 ◼   ► That's great

01:01:54 ◼   ► that you have to ask that.

01:01:55 ◼   ► It was so unbelievable.

01:01:57 ◼   ► I thought they were

01:01:58 ◼   ► real people

01:01:58 ◼   ► and then it was so ridiculous.

01:02:00 ◼   ► I was like,

01:02:00 ◼   ► they must be actors.

01:02:01 ◼   ► So yeah,

01:02:02 ◼   ► we talked about

01:02:03 ◼   ► The Friend Necklace

01:02:03 ◼   ► on a past episode,

01:02:04 ◼   ► I believe.

01:02:04 ◼   ► It's one of those

01:02:05 ◼   ► like pendants

01:02:05 ◼   ► that goes around your neck

01:02:06 ◼   ► that's going to be

01:02:07 ◼   ► like your AI friend.

01:02:07 ◼   ► I'm pretty sure

01:02:10 ◼   ► the people they're talking to

01:02:11 ◼   ► are the actual

01:02:11 ◼   ► like, you know,

01:02:12 ◼   ► founders or whatever

01:02:13 ◼   ► are representatives

01:02:14 ◼   ► of this company

01:02:14 ◼   ► and they're just,

01:02:15 ◼   ► obviously it's a comedy show

01:02:16 ◼   ► so they're making fun of them

01:02:17 ◼   ► saying why don't you

01:02:17 ◼   ► get a real friend

01:02:18 ◼   ► and stuff like that.

01:02:18 ◼   ► But like,

01:02:18 ◼   ► the fact that you can

01:02:19 ◼   ► make a comedy sketch

01:02:20 ◼   ► out of this,

01:02:21 ◼   ► I mean,

01:02:21 ◼   ► obviously the product

01:02:22 ◼   ► is ridiculous

01:02:22 ◼   ► and these people

01:02:23 ◼   ► should not have gone

01:02:24 ◼   ► on the show

01:02:25 ◼   ► but they probably thought

01:02:26 ◼   ► it was worthwhile

01:02:27 ◼   ► for the free publicity

01:02:28 ◼   ► even though they're

01:02:28 ◼   ► mercilessly ridiculed

01:02:29 ◼   ► for the entire thing

01:02:30 ◼   ► but like,

01:02:31 ◼   ► stuff like this

01:02:32 ◼   ► where there's some company

01:02:33 ◼   ► that somehow got funding

01:02:34 ◼   ► that thinks,

01:02:35 ◼   ► you know,

01:02:36 ◼   ► your friend should be

01:02:36 ◼   ► a thing that hangs

01:02:37 ◼   ► around your neck

01:02:38 ◼   ► and we're going to

01:02:38 ◼   ► make that a product

01:02:39 ◼   ► and make all these ads

01:02:39 ◼   ► for it

01:02:40 ◼   ► and then they become

01:02:41 ◼   ► comedy fodder

01:02:42 ◼   ► on the Daily Show

01:02:42 ◼   ► to just rip them

01:02:44 ◼   ► a new one

01:02:44 ◼   ► and say let's laugh

01:02:45 ◼   ► at these people.

01:02:45 ◼   ► Now,

01:02:45 ◼   ► that's not,

01:02:46 ◼   ► you know,

01:02:47 ◼   ► again,

01:02:47 ◼   ► people's opinion

01:02:49 ◼   ► and what currently

01:02:49 ◼   ► gets laughed at now

01:02:51 ◼   ► doesn't necessarily

01:02:51 ◼   ► say what things

01:02:53 ◼   ► are going to be

01:02:54 ◼   ► successful in the future.

01:02:55 ◼   ► I'm sure you can find

01:02:56 ◼   ► probably things

01:02:57 ◼   ► specifically from

01:02:58 ◼   ► the Daily Show

01:02:58 ◼   ► where they took

01:03:00 ◼   ► some new technology

01:03:01 ◼   ► and made a very funny

01:03:02 ◼   ► sketch about it

01:03:02 ◼   ► and that technology

01:03:03 ◼   ► later went on

01:03:04 ◼   ► to dominate the entire

01:03:04 ◼   ► culture and we all love it

01:03:05 ◼   ► but where we're at

01:03:07 ◼   ► right now

01:03:08 ◼   ► is the get the

01:03:09 ◼   ► startup founders

01:03:10 ◼   ► on the Daily Show

01:03:11 ◼   ► and mercilessly mock them

01:03:12 ◼   ► for what we perceive

01:03:13 ◼   ► to be their extremely

01:03:14 ◼   ► silly product

01:03:15 ◼   ► and their,

01:03:15 ◼   ► as you put it over to Casey,

01:03:17 ◼   ► ridiculous statements about it,

01:03:18 ◼   ► ridiculous overblown

01:03:19 ◼   ► statements about it

01:03:20 ◼   ► because that's where we are

01:03:21 ◼   ► in the hype cycle

01:03:22 ◼   ► for this.

01:03:23 ◼   ► Yeah,

01:03:24 ◼   ► this video was

01:03:25 ◼   ► incredible

01:03:26 ◼   ► in both excellent

01:03:28 ◼   ► and not so excellent ways.

01:03:29 ◼   ► Like,

01:03:29 ◼   ► it was just astonishing.

01:03:30 ◼   ► And then relevant

01:03:32 ◼   ► but tangentially related

01:03:34 ◼   ► to all this,

01:03:35 ◼   ► Americans really,

01:03:36 ◼   ► really,

01:03:36 ◼   ► really do not like

01:03:37 ◼   ► AI data centers

01:03:38 ◼   ► in their area.

01:03:39 ◼   ► We can point to our friend

01:03:40 ◼   ► Stephen Hackett

01:03:41 ◼   ► about this

01:03:42 ◼   ► but there was a Gallup post

01:03:43 ◼   ► that came out recently

01:03:44 ◼   ► as well.

01:03:45 ◼   ► Let me read from that.

01:03:45 ◼   ► Seven in ten Americans

01:03:47 ◼   ► oppose constructing

01:03:48 ◼   ► data centers

01:03:48 ◼   ► for artificial intelligence

01:03:49 ◼   ► in their local area

01:03:50 ◼   ► including nearly half

01:03:51 ◼   ► or 48%