00:00:00 ◼ ► from relay this is upgrade episode 608 today's show is brought to you by delete me century the pets table and nerd wallet my name is mike hurley and i'm joined by jason snell hi jason snell hi mike hurley big show today i'm very excited for today's episode busy busy busy i have a snell talk question for you okay comes from
00:00:29 ◼ ► seb and seb wants to know jason if you were to appear on the uk game show mastermind what would you choose as your
00:00:37 ◼ ► specialist subject now i'll ask you jason do you know about mastermind is it do you familiar with the show
00:00:43 ◼ ► i am vaguely familiar with the show this is a show where you choose the category and then they give
00:00:48 ◼ ► you a bunch of hard trivia questions about your category essentially yes yeah you are you're going
00:00:53 ◼ ► on and saying i have a specialist subject and it can be super specific as a subject you know
00:00:59 ◼ ► uh-huh uh the band oasis from the years 2000 to 2006 or whatever sure and then they will go away
00:01:05 ◼ ► and create a set of questions that are tailored to the knowledge of that subject yeah so what would
00:01:13 ◼ ► you choose as your specialist subject well it's funny um because you think about like i can think
00:01:20 ◼ ► of lots of generalist areas because when you're playing a game show uh when you're playing jeopardy
00:01:25 ◼ ► especially one of the things you think of is what are the categories that i would like to see come up
00:01:29 ◼ ► in the game board and what are the ones that i would not like to see come up in the game board
00:01:32 ◼ ► but mastermind strikes me as being a little bit different because i am not the kind of person who
00:01:39 ◼ ► like for example like star trek i know a lot about star trek but like i don't want to answer star trek
00:01:44 ◼ ► trivia because they're going to be like in this episode what was the name of the ship that did this and
00:01:47 ◼ ► i don't know that my brain doesn't work that way so um apple is the answer i think i think it would
00:01:54 ◼ ► have to be right i think it would have to be apple yeah if i was to do it i would also pick apple within
00:01:59 ◼ ► a very specific time frame sure because it's the thing that i figure i have devoted the majority of
00:02:06 ◼ ► my thinking to in my professional career so i figure that would also probably be my answer even though i
00:02:14 ◼ ► don't actually think i would be very good at that i've heard i've heard you know various shenanigans
00:02:20 ◼ ► unconnected and it is apple trivia is hard but like what is my other specialist subject what other
00:02:26 ◼ ► i am literally an apple specialist so i think it would have to be that i think you would have to pick
00:02:31 ◼ ► like the mac though yeah right like you wouldn't want to pick all of apple like it would be right
00:02:37 ◼ ► like i would probably pick the iphone just like iphone don't give me iphone trivia and i reckon i
00:02:43 ◼ ► could probably do a decent job of that maybe yeah i think i think that's right and i think you're
00:02:48 ◼ ► right i probably would end up just saying something like the mac yeah because that you'd be like
00:02:52 ◼ ► macintosh so hard if they were like even in the last you know even say 20 years or whatever that's so
00:03:00 ◼ ► much stuff it's like so we have a question about apple news it's like oh no yeah who's the name what's
00:03:06 ◼ ► the name of this fitness plus trainer it's like ah here's the question here's a question about snow
00:03:11 ◼ ► leopard oh no what if you'd like to send in a snow talk question of your own to help us open
00:03:22 ◼ ► we have some follow-up in today's show so we're recording this episode a little bit early a few
00:03:28 ◼ ► days early uh because i think you're traveling uh and today so which is friday march the 20th
00:03:34 ◼ ► tim cook posted on x to say that the mac had quote its best launch week ever for first time mac
00:03:42 ◼ ► customers and said that we love seeing the enthusiasm now while this this feels to me very much like an f1
00:03:51 ◼ ► stat so in f1 there's obviously a lot of statistics like there are in any sport and like you can draw
00:03:56 ◼ ► enough rings around any scenario to make a stat out of it right so like yes at the history of this
00:04:02 ◼ ► racetrack with this race team this person's the first to do yz and so like there is like first week ever
00:04:10 ◼ ► for first time mac customers this is the best launch week but that is still significant that
00:04:17 ◼ ► there was some kind of record broken with you would assume the mac neo is is the reason for this the
00:04:24 ◼ ► mac yes you would think so what do you think about this about them talking about this even i mean it
00:04:30 ◼ ► feels like they were primed to say this they talk about new to mac all the time they're probably doing
00:04:34 ◼ ► some some post post sales surveys uh probably even specifically targeting getting this reaction
00:04:43 ◼ ► this result so that they could talk about it this is a thing that they do so i i don't think they're
00:04:48 ◼ ► wrong but i think that maybe this was anticipated and so they were kind of uh they're priming it you
00:04:53 ◼ ► know yeah and figure figuring out that this was where they were going to go this is part of the
00:04:56 ◼ ► narrative of this so they're going to do some research and they know they're going to get this
00:04:59 ◼ ► right i think that that's the other thing is that they're already they're already doing pretty well
00:05:03 ◼ ► at new to mac in general and they figure the macbook neo would probably uh raise the bar there and so
00:05:08 ◼ ► you know they said let's measure that so that we can make some claims and it is all you know it is also
00:05:14 ◼ ► apple's typically vague like uh here's a thing that we think and is there anything to back it up it's
00:05:21 ◼ ► like no you just have to take us on our word that we have stats that say this like okay all right i mean
00:05:26 ◼ ► i believe it but um i think they were anticipating yeah and planning this statement but i mean you can
00:05:32 ◼ ► plan as much as you like but people actually have to care about it and you can miss and so it's true
00:05:36 ◼ ► it is at least notable that they hit right that this product here it hit with what they were looking for
00:05:41 ◼ ► this is clearly meant to be a new to mac product and they were very successful in new to mac like there
00:05:48 ◼ ► is a scenario where they could say one of the best launch weeks ever right and you'd still say oh great
00:05:53 ◼ ► like good for them there might also be a superlative above this that they didn't hit and
00:05:57 ◼ ► we'll never see that one right the best week ever for the mac yeah right that that right that's what
00:06:02 ◼ ► you know they would love to have done you know but unlikely like and again it's like you would
00:06:08 ◼ ► expect this is units sold not revenue right yeah i mean presumably because they just said best
00:06:16 ◼ ► cool best awesomeness um it just feels like to hit revenue would be hard right like and and my question
00:06:23 ◼ ► is like what is how do they get that first that new to mac number is that um are they doing a special
00:06:28 ◼ ► program where they're like in stores asking people or are they doing a fast did they choose to like a
00:06:33 ◼ ► fast follow-up like whenever anybody buys a computer the next day they're like saying you know please take
00:06:39 ◼ ► the survey now so that they can get these numbers this this quickly because like there's a whole strategy
00:06:43 ◼ ► that goes with that too but i'm sure that we spoke about this before and someone did write in to tell
00:06:48 ◼ ► us how they do this and i and i feel bad for having forgotten we know we talked about it and then i
00:06:53 ◼ ► actually reached out to somebody who used to work in apple marketing who said yeah it's it's absolutely
00:06:58 ◼ ► um you know they do these post sales surveys and that's how they get those numbers and they're the
00:07:04 ◼ ► numbers are you know vague like they're intentionally vague they're like more than about half more than half
00:07:11 ◼ ► didn't they also say or maybe we got somebody else tell us this that there is also an element of apple
00:07:16 ◼ ► data which helps them equate this as well as phone calls that like they they have some like level of
00:07:22 ◼ ► awareness for new customers uh yeah well i i think i think it's primarily the post sales survey where
00:07:29 ◼ ► you get an email that says thank you for registering your apple product or here's a new apple but we would
00:07:33 ◼ ► like to know more and then they they do a follow-up survey and that's where they get that data
00:07:36 ◼ ► surveys are what they are but nevertheless this is i think this is notable and i think is a
00:07:43 ◼ ► achievement that zoe makes a point too that there could be some data involved if you're looking at
00:07:47 ◼ ► an apple id that's being associated with a mac for the first time that's not quite the same right but
00:07:52 ◼ ► like it could be it could be a signal especially if it's a new mac that was just sold all of these
00:07:56 ◼ ► things can only be signals right because like yeah you can you can make a bunch of phone calls but
00:08:01 ◼ ► only the people that answer are the ones that give the results what is knowledge anyway what does
00:08:07 ◼ ► anybody really know that's a great question what is true nobody knows truth and knowledge and why why
00:08:13 ◼ ► would you even can ever construct uh some sort of a game where people needed to test their knowledge
00:08:17 ◼ ► that would be pointless why would you bother sounds horrible if you ask me it sounds like horrible
00:08:23 ◼ ► it's spending afternoon uh mark german is reporting that the head of hardware engineering for apple's home
00:08:28 ◼ ► division brian lynch has left the company to go to smart ring maker ura uh lynch has been in charge
00:08:35 ◼ ► since 2022 before this he was working on the car project um so it seems like he was working on ipods
00:08:46 ◼ ► before so he hasn't only ever worked on things that never shipped uh but lynch has been in charge of a
00:08:52 ◼ ► couple of divisions at the hardware parts of these divisions uh that have struggled in recent years i mean
00:08:57 ◼ ► it is worth noting there is um there is a level of management between lynch and john turnus so like
00:09:03 ◼ ► it's not like complete management but this is hardware engineering for the home products to me when i read
00:09:09 ◼ ► this story i felt very much like maybe he's a bit annoyed look i mean we the narrative is and this is
00:09:18 ◼ ► also based on mark german reporting that the hardware has not been the problem with these products it's been
00:09:22 ◼ ► that they've been let down by software and they've been ready to ship so there could be frustration here
00:09:27 ◼ ► i would also say there was that report um i think from mark german who said that um john turnus is
00:09:33 ◼ ► getting more involved in home hardware which i i will say if you've got a reporter reporting in separate
00:09:41 ◼ ► stories that this uh new head of hardware uh or head of hardware who might be the new ceo
00:09:47 ◼ ► is now getting more involved in home hardware and a separate story that says the guy in charge of home
00:09:52 ◼ ► hardware is left um are these connected i mean we don't we don't we don't know and which direction
00:09:59 ◼ ► is it yes you know uh that that that john turnus is uh more engaged in this and sees it as a real
00:10:06 ◼ ► priority and he's pushing harder and and somebody like brian lynch is like i don't want to deal with
00:10:11 ◼ ► this or maybe he felt like he was not being respected it's also possibly the reverse that john turnus is
00:10:15 ◼ ► more involved because the guy who's in charge of it is leaving and so they're going to have to
00:10:20 ◼ ► rejigger it either one could be true it's very hard to judge from the outside but like we've been
00:10:25 ◼ ► saying a lot about apple executive shifts sometimes little power shifts can have effects like this just
00:10:32 ◼ ► because there's a new boss or you know the new boss or once or the boss wants to do it differently or
00:10:38 ◼ ► whatever and you get kind of mad because you're like look i've been doing everything right it's not my
00:10:42 ◼ ► problem this is not and and and stuff like this happens i i was amused by the fact that mark german
00:10:48 ◼ ► thinks that every person who leaves apple is a tragedy for apple and i think that's i think that's
00:10:53 ◼ ► interesting because maybe maybe but like i have been in this situation sometimes you let people go
00:11:00 ◼ ► because you think you know what you got another opportunity that's great we're gonna let you go
00:11:04 ◼ ► there we're not gonna try to stop you from leaving and he doesn't say they didn't try but he they
00:11:08 ◼ ► didn't succeed he left to go to aura from apple so i i just i want to inject a little skepticism
00:11:14 ◼ ► because i'm not sure every departure from apple is a loss for apple i'm not i'm not sure i buy that
00:11:21 ◼ ► it could be it might not be um and i know we talked about this a lot with alan die but this is a great
00:11:28 ◼ ► example of that too is like not every person who leaves apple is a tragedy for apple and yet i think
00:11:34 ◼ ► that's how mark wants to to tell the story i don't know if it's you know i'm not saying you're not
00:11:41 ◼ ► saying i think this that's more a it's good for bloomberg than it is necessarily what mark thinks
00:11:46 ◼ ► that i could be if this feels very much like the type of reporting that does well for bloomberg
00:11:54 ◼ ► is like sure sure company in trouble company in the narrative building that's that's the narrative here
00:11:59 ◼ ► is people are people are leaving apple and mark german's obviously got some very good sources in i
00:12:03 ◼ ► don't know where hr or every company that hires somebody away from apple knows to contact mark german
00:12:09 ◼ ► and say hey mark we hired somebody from apple and he's like i'm on it um i don't these are the things
00:12:15 ◼ ► that i do not know about this information again just to reiterate what what i say about mark german
00:12:20 ◼ ► all the time he's a really good reporter he's the best at what he does he is he absolutely is um
00:12:25 ◼ ► but there's also the question of like what does it mean and uh what are the narratives and all of
00:12:32 ◼ ► that and that that one you know i like to take a step back a little bit but but i also feel for this
00:12:36 ◼ ► guy because it's very clear he's been put in some difficult situations with products that have kind of
00:12:40 ◼ ► like not happened for things that may have been out of his control um and very much both seem you know
00:12:47 ◼ ► from what we know about these things like there's the car project which was just a disaster from the
00:12:53 ◼ ► beginning it should honestly should never have been started um and then you know the the smart home
00:12:58 ◼ ► stuff which is like apparently the hardware is really interesting but we just have yet to see it
00:13:03 ◼ ► uh barclays analyst tim long has published a report informed by supply chain sources on the upcoming
00:13:10 ◼ ► iphone slate there are two details in this um that are interesting one is that he expects uh based on
00:13:17 ◼ ► you know way that production lines are being spun up that the foldable iphone will not be shipping until
00:13:22 ◼ ► december which is similar to the iphone 10 right that was it was announced and didn't ship till november
00:13:29 ◼ ► but the the other iphones when i sound as september as nor was normal he also says that alongside the iphone
00:13:35 ◼ ► 18 in march he expects apple to ship both the 18e and either an air 2 or 18 plus now all of that part
00:13:45 ◼ ► is interesting to me we're gonna get the 18e in march right i guess we know that yeah because we just
00:13:53 ◼ ► got the 17e that makes sense this is march next year but then either the air 2 or an 18 plus and to me
00:13:59 ◼ ► it seems a little bit late to be having either conversations right like we're not that we're a year
00:14:04 ◼ ► away but that's not that far away for building and choosing an iphone but yeah i i don't i also don't
00:14:11 ◼ ► know if it i don't know what i think makes sense in this scenario do you do you give the air another
00:14:16 ◼ ► shot or do you go back to the plus it's a good question like either either is the part that that
00:14:22 ◼ ► makes me wonder it's also possible that they're planning on on doing both of these and then they
00:14:28 ◼ ► can say let's kick this one down the line because you could i see a scenario where you could say
00:14:33 ◼ ► we're gonna alternate i mean they could kill the air if they if they're unhappy with sales or not
00:14:37 ◼ ► with it i don't know um and go back to the plus if they think that that's a more reliable thing they
00:14:42 ◼ ► could also alternate and say we're gonna do the 18 plus and then you can see air 2 in the fall or the
00:14:48 ◼ ► following year and it's on the different cadence and they could do that as well i don't know it's
00:14:52 ◼ ► going to be really interesting to see what um what they do here because it's it's unclear i mean we've
00:14:58 ◼ ► we've heard reports that the air has just not sold that well yeah which is not super surprising in some
00:15:04 ◼ ► ways because it is a niche product but like that's a niche product slot like that's not a mainstream it's
00:15:10 ◼ ► never been the big selling iphone so why would why would this be any different i think it's going to
00:15:16 ◼ ► be interesting to see if what apple comes to realize is if you want another iphone slot to sell while it
00:15:25 ◼ ► actually has to be at the top not in the middle price wise because that will be the fold right like
00:15:30 ◼ ► the fold will also be occupying yes and and outside of the mainstream three spot which is that that has
00:15:38 ◼ ► always been a problem no matter where they put it whether it's the cheapest whether it's in the middle
00:15:42 ◼ ► or whatever it's just not seeming to work and it'll be interesting to see if the fold does work
00:15:48 ◼ ► yeah i don't know i don't know they could also reconceptualize the air to to be you know i don't know
00:15:56 ◼ ► different from the air to sort of explore that and see is there a is there a different price or
00:16:03 ◼ ► screen size or whatever that would appeal to people or or not i don't know don't know i think if
00:16:10 ◼ ► i think it would be interesting to see how the air could perform if you removed its major downsides
00:16:18 ◼ ► if you could give it increased battery life and a second camera what would happen because then you
00:16:24 ◼ ► remove the downsides of the product a lot of them a lot of the downsides and then what then what would
00:16:29 ◼ ► it do they give you so be interesting to see or all or or all of those people going to just buy a pro
00:16:34 ◼ ► or a fold instead probably probably i think they would lose i think they would potentially lose a lot
00:16:42 ◼ ► of air customers to the pro to the folding phone honestly i think that i do think that that's possible
00:16:48 ◼ ► the other thought that i had i mean i like the idea of having a range of iphones and if the air
00:16:54 ◼ ► stays around like again it doesn't have to sell it has to sell enough to justify its existence but
00:17:00 ◼ ► if you're trying to create a spread of products they're not all going to be your best selling
00:17:04 ◼ ► iphone because that's not possible like you have to provide lesser selling iphones but they want to
00:17:09 ◼ ► they want to hit those spots right and maybe they'll decide that the air is not going to ever hit that
00:17:13 ◼ ► spot and it's just kind of an alternative that's never going to win the battle between maybe i
00:17:18 ◼ ► should get this or a different model and so it's not worth doing the other thing i wanted to throw out
00:17:22 ◼ ► there is this this expectation that this analyst has that the foldable phone won't ship until december
00:17:33 ◼ ► yeah i mean i can see it i i don't know enough about his track record to say whether he's right or not i
00:17:42 ◼ ► look forward to seeing maybe if there's some corroborative evidence from other reporters down the road
00:17:47 ◼ ► i at some point i have to say if it's gonna slip this much maybe it should just get announced in march
00:18:06 ◼ ► fall fall is the best time to do it but then if it's not going to ship for two months i don't know
00:18:10 ◼ ► maybe maybe not yeah still if you can get out in december and if you can take a lot of pre-orders and
00:18:15 ◼ ► you can ship it to people and they've got it in everybody's hands before christmas it's worth doing
00:18:18 ◼ ► but like i i just i would love more detail about this this delay and how they're feeling about it
00:18:24 ◼ ► i do hope for our sakes the fold does ship separately though oh yes oh yes i loved having
00:18:35 ◼ ► the ability to review the iphone 10 separate yeah that would be lovely lovely that would be really
00:18:43 ◼ ► nice if you're happy about that yes thanks this takes me back to that classic moment where i told
00:18:48 ◼ ► somebody in apple pr that we'd really like at mac world we'd really like if they just released one
00:18:52 ◼ ► photogenic new product every month to put on our cover that would be that would be the product
00:18:58 ◼ ► cadence that we would like because the product issues with the new apple product on the cover always were
00:19:04 ◼ ► the best issues of the year so it's just please just do that one you just did 12 ipods and just did
00:19:09 ◼ ► one every month it'd be awesome yeah really good oh man that's great that's great well that that's
00:19:13 ◼ ► actually that's the true tragedy of the tenure of brian lynch at apple is that you said you know
00:19:29 ◼ ► didn't work out for them it was the u2 ipod shuffle it was coming out in july and it just yeah it was
00:19:35 ◼ ► it was the it was just the yeah it was the ipod february and it was the color of of february sorry
00:19:41 ◼ ► sorry about that poor guy this episode is brought to you by delete me delete me makes it easy quick
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00:21:34 ◼ ► i have been so excited to talk to you about this because jason last week you were on jeopardy
00:21:42 ◼ ► it's true this is jeopardy yeah i was on thursday the 19th congratulations thank you for being on the
00:21:52 ◼ ► show i know how long uh you've wanted to do this what is your background with jeopardy uh why did
00:21:58 ◼ ► you want to be on the show and how long have you tried to get on the show honestly i i think it doesn't
00:22:02 ◼ ► align with a lot of the people who play the game i started watch i mean i was aware of it for sure um
00:22:07 ◼ ► throughout my life but it was um really lawrence parents who watched jeopardy every night and so
00:22:16 ◼ ► we would go down and visit them and we would watch jeopardy and i would you know shout out answers and
00:22:20 ◼ ► all of that and i i you know played trivia games and other other things and always thought like oh
00:22:26 ◼ ► maybe i could do jeopardy like i mean it was just a vague thought it was really just a vague thought
00:22:30 ◼ ► and it wasn't until so there was a period where we had who wants to be a millionaire mania in the u.s
00:22:37 ◼ ► where which ironically the executive producer of that is the executive producer of jeopardy now
00:22:43 ◼ ► um michael davies and uh at mac world offices that was like a uh everybody was like everybody was like
00:22:54 ◼ ► i forget what you did you called in or you or you went to their website or i don't even know what it
00:22:59 ◼ ► was and there was like a quiz you could take and it was like how do you get on who wants to be a
00:23:02 ◼ ► millionaire and like my friend phil michaels did it and people were people doing that and i remember
00:23:07 ◼ ► doing that and it was just like kind of a fun idea of what if you you know went on a a game show like
00:23:21 ◼ ► said that he would he had always tried to get on jeopardy and he hadn't i knew a couple other people
00:23:27 ◼ ► who tried in those days it was really hard to get on you had to like go to an audition or wait in the
00:23:34 ◼ ► line or whatever and and and glenn fleischman got on and my friend jeff duncan got on um and i thought
00:23:40 ◼ ► that was really interesting but again it was just kind of remote but when dan was trying and they
00:23:44 ◼ ► they instituted the anytime test where you could just go to the web and take a test and and if you
00:23:49 ◼ ► did well they might call you basically um that was when i started to think oh maybe i should do that
00:23:57 ◼ ► sometime but it was so it was just idly maybe i should do that sometime and i honestly couldn't tell
00:24:01 ◼ ► you what tipped me over other than that it was i think in the pandemic after so i mean really after
00:24:07 ◼ ► alex trebek died alex trebek was the longtime host of jeopardy the stage they record on at sony pictures
00:24:13 ◼ ► and uh in culver city is now um it's uh it's the trebek it's now the alex trebek stage yeah yeah
00:24:21 ◼ ► um when alex died because he had so he had cancer and um fought it for a year plus i forget and when he
00:24:28 ◼ ► died they they um it was like a moment where uh and and and this was sort of pandemic era too
00:24:34 ◼ ► where um we just started watching jeopardy um we watched his last games that he had recorded
00:24:40 ◼ ► and then into the guest hosts and all of that um and so in that era we picked it up and started
00:24:46 ◼ ► watching it every day um and that was really the impetus for me to say well maybe i should try
00:24:53 ◼ ► the anytime test so um also you know you watch you watch tv shows and you think yeah could i be on that
00:25:00 ◼ ► or not and the one that makes me laugh is that in there's always a an ad break in survivor where
00:25:06 ◼ ► jeff probst will be like hey you should be on survivor and i think jeff i should not don't speak
00:25:12 ◼ ► to me don't speak to me jeff this is not for me i i should i should not 20 years ago 25 years ago when
00:25:19 ◼ ► i started watching your show i should not have been on then i really should not be on it now but um
00:25:25 ◼ ► but jeopardy i was like you know i could i could try that but it was just you know it was a lark i was
00:25:30 ◼ ► like sure i'll take the test that'll be a fun thing and and and all the way through it was really like
00:25:34 ◼ ► wouldn't it be a fun experience that's literally all it was was wouldn't that be a fun experience so
00:25:41 ◼ ► um so two and a half years ago uh almost three years ago now actually i took the anytime test
00:25:50 ◼ ► and then things got weird because two weeks later i got an email from jeopardy that said we'd like you
00:25:58 ◼ ► to take the test again and you they take you take it on zoom with your camera on and all they're all
00:26:10 ◼ ► it's you taking the test so it's a proxy test that's basically there to make sure you didn't
00:26:15 ◼ ► cheat or have somebody else take the test for you yeah and then they're like great thanks and again
00:26:21 ◼ ► it's just i mean when you finish taking the test it's not like they tell you how many you get right
00:26:23 ◼ ► either of them they just say great you took the test that's it that's it and you're like okay
00:26:28 ◼ ► and if you don't hear from us do it again next year literally you don't know if you get it right or wrong
00:26:33 ◼ ► no just do it do it again next year yeah yeah so so uh after the proxy so so it's a a couple weeks
00:26:42 ◼ ► later and it's literally it's june of 2023 and i know this because i got the email while i was
00:26:48 ◼ ► sitting in ottson stadium at the university of oregon waiting for jamie's graduation oh wow
00:26:56 ◼ ► jamie had two graduations they were both in the stadium so we were there all day between the the like
00:27:02 ◼ ► the main graduation uh ceremony and the the graduation for her school uh within the university
00:27:10 ◼ ► of oregon so we just stayed there um and i got this email and it was like we would like you to be
00:27:16 ◼ ► on a zoom to audition to be on jeopardy what what what and they wanted the day we were driving back
00:27:22 ◼ ► and i said i'm sorry i'm driving back my daughter's blah blah blah and they're like it's not a problem
00:27:25 ◼ ► we have a slot the next day you want to do the next day and i said sure and that was that was a zoom
00:27:31 ◼ ► where you they tell get a pen so you can pretend it's a clicker a buzzer and we're gonna play a kind
00:27:39 ◼ ► of simulated game and people are gonna step in you know we'll pick three people from this group of like
00:27:43 ◼ ► nine people or ten people who are on this zoom and and we'll play little mini games and they want to see
00:27:49 ◼ ► you like buzz in they want to see you call for a category they want to see you answer questions
00:27:53 ◼ ► it's an audition in fact what they said is you're already qualified to be on jeopardy this isn't about
00:27:58 ◼ ► that this is for casting we want to see will you be interesting on television can you can you hold it
00:28:04 ◼ ► together are you fine what do you yeah what do you sound like i mean it's it's tv casting what do you
00:28:09 ◼ ► sound like what do you look like um and then they know about your demographics they really do want
00:28:14 ◼ ► to create a show that shows a broad spectrum of people they they really do broad spectrum in every
00:28:19 ◼ ► possible way including things like age and geography even right and and and i would say uh job and like
00:28:28 ◼ ► it's lots of different things um and it's casting right they want they want to get the right people and
00:28:34 ◼ ► they want to get the right mix of people on the show yeah so this is great so i do this and they're like
00:28:40 ◼ ► great thanks everybody you're in the pool um and wait to hear from us that was it that's it that's
00:28:45 ◼ ► it that's all there is um two and a half years pass in the intervening time dan takes the test he gets it
00:28:52 ◼ ► he does the proxying uh he does the zoom audition and he gets on jeopardy and wins and wins and i i hear
00:29:03 ◼ ► nothing and i'm like well i guess they didn't like me um and then in january i i got a text on like
00:29:09 ◼ ► january 10th or something from john barra one of the content uh contestant producers at jeopardy
00:29:14 ◼ ► saying um would love to talk um can you call can we set up a call for tomorrow yep and i after a check
00:29:23 ◼ ► of is this legit which it seemed to be i said sure and that call was we'd like you to be on jeopardy
00:29:29 ◼ ► february 11th in about a month basically yep we'd like you to be on jeopardy that was it 11th and 12th
00:29:35 ◼ ► hold two days for it um kind of anticlimactic in one way because it was just like yes there was no
00:29:43 ◼ ► like build it was just like yes that's it didn't get a box in the mail that had confetti in it when
00:29:47 ◼ ► you opened it it's just like there's no puzzle to solve it was a text and a phone call where they said
00:29:53 ◼ ► you can be on jeopardy yep of course i had not been even playing and practicing for the last like year
00:29:59 ◼ ► because i was like i you know i figured okay they're not i'm not going to be on i'm not going
00:30:04 ◼ ► to worry about it so much and then so so yeah so that that was that was it and so um and i'll tell
00:30:10 ◼ ► you my because again a lot of people talk about it being like their dream um one of the questions
00:30:17 ◼ ► in the audition was if you win a lot of money on jeopardy what would you do with the money
00:30:24 ◼ ► and i'm telling you i had never even considered anything about that that's not why i did it i
00:30:33 ◼ ► didn't say i would like to go on a game show to win money that was not my motivation at all it was
00:30:37 ◼ ► literally wouldn't that be a great experience to be on jeopardy which i mean yeah that that's pretty
00:30:43 ◼ ► much how it worked out so that's fine but um but that was that was the point the point was the
00:30:48 ◼ ► wouldn't it be interesting to do this more than anything else and i would just advise everybody if
00:30:54 ◼ ► your goal if you need a lot of money if your goal is well here's what i'm going to do here's my plan
00:30:59 ◼ ► step one get on a game show step two win a lot of money like that is a real low percentage chance
00:31:04 ◼ ► that you got there so yeah so i mean and that was it so i had a i had a month warning and lauren
00:31:11 ◼ ► brought a bunch of uh children's books home from the library because children books are pretty good
00:31:19 ◼ ► some stuff about classical music and about first ladies and about presidents and stuff like that and
00:31:24 ◼ ► geography and things that might be helpful um but uh yeah yeah also i had to read david
00:31:33 ◼ ► poke's 600 page book that same time that was my entire hawaii vacation was studying for jeopardy
00:31:38 ◼ ► and reading did that help did the apple book help at all i mean neither of them helped really
00:31:48 ◼ ► yeah so that was pretty wild um and they let you have three guests there so lauren and her parents
00:31:54 ◼ ► obviously were the people that to come and and be and be there but but yeah it's funny i so i don't
00:32:00 ◼ ► have that story of like it was a lifelong dream it was more like i think this would be you know one of my
00:32:04 ◼ ► secret things that i do is i just say yes to things like because once i agree to something i will do it
00:32:10 ◼ ► i'm a committer so um this was like that which is like this would be fun and then once it happened i'm
00:32:16 ◼ ► like well i can't say no no right like let's do it it'll be a great life experience so so that was it
00:32:24 ◼ ► so i want to know a little bit about what the day was like before you step onto the stage so like what
00:32:29 ◼ ► happens when you arrive at the studio like what are you what are you doing how are you being prepared
00:32:34 ◼ ► for the day so uh so we're staying at a hotel that's not too far away we didn't even rent a car i just
00:32:39 ◼ ► took a lift up uh and the the call for contestants was 7 45 a.m the audience can get to get there at like
00:32:45 ◼ ► 9 30 that's the early start 7 45 a.m so i get dropped off at the gas station across the street from the
00:32:51 ◼ ► sony lot and i'm waiting at the uh at the uh crosswalk to cross the the big street to get to
00:32:58 ◼ ► the lot and the there's another guy there and he looks at me and he says jason it's john barra who
00:33:04 ◼ ► texted me and he knows my face because they've got the faces of all the contestants yeah because he's a
00:33:10 ◼ ► contestant producer so he he said i was just looking at your file yesterday um and so he walked me over
00:33:16 ◼ ► and and and pointed me the way to go and you basically you and you and the other contestants
00:33:20 ◼ ► gather at the you know beforehand in the it was it was kind of damp because it had rained the day
00:33:25 ◼ ► before this this uh it's not basement it's the first level of the sony parking garage by the elevator
00:33:30 ◼ ► there's like some folding chairs set up there not glamorous and and and places to hang your garment
00:33:35 ◼ ► bag because you got to bring a bunch of changes of clothes in case you're on the show for multiple
00:33:40 ◼ ► days um and there were there were uh 13 of us who showed up okay um because they're shooting many
00:33:48 ◼ ► episodes in a day right yeah so you show up at 7 45 because they will shoot an entire week of shows
00:33:53 ◼ ► in a day you you'll shoot three in the morning take a lunch break at like one or two in the afternoon
00:33:57 ◼ ► and then shoot two more yeah and um so it's a full day and and so they've got all those contestants
00:34:05 ◼ ► there um and we learned that the the champion because you always are wary that there's going
00:34:12 ◼ ► to be like a super champion on a run who's going to get you i hate poor suckers that don't know that
00:34:16 ◼ ► for people that don't know jeopardy what does it mean to be a champion uh when you win a game you play
00:34:21 ◼ ► the next day right so it is essentially a a knockout competition jeopardy right you just keep going until
00:34:28 ◼ ► you lose it it is always two new challenges it used to be you could win five and then they would
00:34:33 ◼ ► replace you and you just be a champion at five um but they don't do that anymore because they have
00:34:39 ◼ ► had great success with including ken jennings who is now the host and is the all-time record holder
00:34:43 ◼ ► he won like 70 80 games in a row like just crazy how many um 70 or 80 i forget exactly what the
00:34:50 ◼ ► number is yeah yeah yeah i interviewed ken jennings a very very very very long time ago on one of my
00:34:56 ◼ ► interview podcasts 2014 uh episode of command space called a bit of a know-it-all with ken jennings
00:35:03 ◼ ► that's amazing well seeing now we have we have a little cross i got to meet ken um and glenn
00:35:08 ◼ ► fleischman has met ken uh you would not be surprised to hear so um so yeah the the so you what you want
00:35:15 ◼ ► what you don't want to do because there are legendary stories of this is you get there in the morning and
00:35:18 ◼ ► then they're like oh there's the champion and it's like somebody who's won 20 games in a row and you're
00:35:23 ◼ ► like oh we're all doomed but great news everybody the champion was this uh perfectly unassuming guy
00:35:28 ◼ ► named jamie ding who had only won on friday he was which was yesterday right he won the day before the
00:35:34 ◼ ► last game so he's a one-day champion not a big deal that was not true um and because you know for those
00:35:42 ◼ ► who have seen the first four games of this week uh the eight of those 12 people in that parking lot
00:35:49 ◼ ► were dispatched by jamie ding it didn't go well um but uh so yeah you show up in the parking lot once
00:35:57 ◼ ► everybody's there and they're ready they take you back into the studio into the green room which is
00:36:01 ◼ ► just a room with circular tables that you can sit at and there's two bathrooms and you can
00:36:06 ◼ ► and then then they said in it's tv right so the wardrobe lady comes and she's looking at what you
00:36:12 ◼ ► brought and she's looking at what you're wearing and they have to camera test stuff because they're
00:36:16 ◼ ► like well the sweater sort of has a pattern let's see what it looks like on camera i was wearing a
00:36:21 ◼ ► a kind of a a burgundy or a kind of uh sweater quarter zip and she's like oh the knit has a little
00:36:30 ◼ ► pattern and she and lauren also bought me a a green sweater she's like wear the green sweater and i'll
00:36:36 ◼ ► camera test this um and that's what i ended up wearing for my game um and so they're doing they're
00:36:42 ◼ ► checking everybody's wardrobe they're gonna put everybody through makeup um they're gonna look at
00:36:47 ◼ ► your hair there they there's a bunch of compliance stuff where it's like here are the rules you know
00:36:51 ◼ ► you're not allowed to cheat there's federal you will violate federal law if you try to cheat in this
00:36:55 ◼ ► game they have to read all that to you yeah turn off your smartphones take off your smart watches i
00:37:01 ◼ ► wore my dad's watch that he got in the 60s and gave to me because um i thought i that would be nice and
00:37:08 ◼ ► also i couldn't wear my apple watch yeah um so they do all of that kind of thing um and then they take
00:37:14 ◼ ► you out and this is a thing that they started actually while ken jennings was on his run they
00:37:17 ◼ ► wanted to be fair to new contestants to have them not be surprised when they got on stage so
00:37:21 ◼ ► the whole crew does a does a rehearsal show just a rehearsal but it's full with cameras and
00:37:28 ◼ ► everything and uh they rotate all of the contestants up onto the stage during that rehearsal in groups of
00:37:35 ◼ ► three to play parts of the game and the goal there is i mean they make sure if you're short or tall
00:37:41 ◼ ► they'll like they have little risers behind the the lecterns so if you're short they will they will
00:37:45 ◼ ► find a right height for you and then they they mark that down so they know when you come and play
00:37:50 ◼ ► they're going to raise the lectern to that or raise the the podium the pedestal behind the lectern to
00:37:54 ◼ ► that height um and you get to use the buzzer and you get to try to feel how the the buzzer works and
00:38:01 ◼ ► which i i was really bad at they they and they will give you feedback if they said to me you were both
00:38:07 ◼ ► too late and too early which was the worst i i was like i'm gonna this is gonna be this is gonna be
00:38:11 ◼ ► awful it turned out not to be because the the rehearsal is not done by ken jennings and i keyed off of
00:38:16 ◼ ► ken jennings voice so once i was out on stage with ken it wasn't a problem but during the rehearsal it
00:38:21 ◼ ► was it was bad you were used to it based on hearing how ken speaks you knew how to buzz in so when you
00:38:28 ◼ ► when he presented you were good at that i see yeah when he stops when he's done with the question the
00:38:33 ◼ ► light comes on there's a producer who's called the enabler um you can't buzz in until the question's been
00:38:38 ◼ ► completely read and then the enabler boom enables the buzzing and you can buzz in and the light goes on
00:38:44 ◼ ► but everybody there have been studies about this the amount of time it takes your brain to process
00:38:49 ◼ ► that the light goes on and press the button is too late what you need to do is anticipate because you
00:38:54 ◼ ► can see what he's reading the text of the clue is up on the screen you can see what ken's reading
00:38:59 ◼ ► um and so the way to do it is internalize his own rhythm have a little virtual ken jennings in your
00:39:06 ◼ ► head you know how he's going to finish reading that clue and so get ready to buzz in at the moment that
00:39:15 ◼ ► da da da da da buzz that's how you have to do it not wait for the light and that worked pretty well
00:39:21 ◼ ► except that when jimmy mcguire was reading clues in the in the in the rehearsal it was a disaster for me
00:39:27 ◼ ► and i was really worried about that until i got out there and literally answered the buzzed in on
00:39:35 ◼ ► um so anyway you do this rehearsal and the whole idea is just to get you comfortable on stage
00:39:39 ◼ ► and then you go backstage and they load the audience in and then it starts and there's a cycle where
00:39:45 ◼ ► basically they're like they call two names that's who's going to play against the champion
00:39:49 ◼ ► they uh they pick that you draw a lot to see who's who's in the center and who's at the far right
00:39:54 ◼ ► um you let they they do they check your hair um they touch up your makeup if necessary they have
00:40:01 ◼ ► you line up in the order you're going to go out and they go out and the rest of us sit in the green
00:40:06 ◼ ► room and watch on the tv you do see you watch the games unfold we are we are watching jeopardy
00:40:12 ◼ ► except live which is weird because they stop it occasionally and ken jennings has to reread clues
00:40:17 ◼ ► that he got wrong like he said wrong it's not to affect the outcome but it's like if he's like
00:40:22 ◼ ► if he flubs a line at the next commercial break he'll go back and they'll he'll reread those again
00:40:28 ◼ ► okay so he won't say the question twice in full he'll no he'll say it so you understand it if he
00:40:35 ◼ ► says something wrong he'll quickly restate it but yes he won't say it and then you you you'll have to
00:40:40 ◼ ► answer it when he gets it wrong yeah yeah but they'll flag he won't get it wrong if they if he got it
00:40:45 ◼ ► wrong and affect the game they would throw it away but like but what some producers listening to what
00:40:49 ◼ ► he's saying is like he didn't really read that as clearly as we'd like and they'll flag it and they
00:40:53 ◼ ► give him that list and then he rereads those clues immediately at the commercial break so that it's you
00:40:59 ◼ ► know as we know from podcasting so it's the same voice and it's completely seamless in that moment so
00:41:04 ◼ ► there's it's a little different when you're watching it because he's doing some of that so the game but
00:41:07 ◼ ► otherwise yeah i mean they take breaks between the commercial breaks to reset and all of that and
00:41:11 ◼ ► and uh and then the game ends and um and then they the contestants chat with ken a little bit
00:41:19 ◼ ► afterward and sometimes they post some of that on uh social in various places sometimes they don't
00:41:24 ◼ ► but there's like a little segment where ken talks to them and the audience hears them and that's kind
00:41:29 ◼ ► of fun um and then they get sent back we all kind of like applaud everybody for doing a good good job
00:41:35 ◼ ► you know even though two of them a lot have lost and are very sad we're like good job everybody and
00:41:39 ◼ ► you did a great job and we're trying to be very supportive in the green room ken does a little
00:41:43 ◼ ► q a with the audience in between episodes okay uh we watch a little bit of that and then it gets cut
00:41:47 ◼ ► off because when it gets cut off it's they call the next two names and the cycle repeats and you play
00:41:53 ◼ ► three games and then it's lunchtime and then you come back and you play two more and you wait for your
00:41:58 ◼ ► name to be called so in my case i waited through lunch and then for thursday it's game four that was
00:42:06 ◼ ► um after lunch and they called my name and the name of jordan who is somebody i've been talking to all
00:42:11 ◼ ► day who is a an episcopal priest from edmonton alberta canada who plays dungeons and dragons and does
00:42:17 ◼ ► curling and is a podcaster i'm like no wonder we chatted all day no wonder i am not an episcopalian but
00:42:26 ◼ ► otherwise i'm gonna jump back as a forwards here between like because i have some questions about that
00:42:30 ◼ ► because i've seen it um don't ask me how i've seen it i've seen the game it's not available here but i hooked
00:42:35 ◼ ► you up we don't have to worry about that but i've seen the game and when jordan is talking like you
00:42:42 ◼ ► know doing her introduction it feels to me that like does jeopardy attract just the same people
00:42:47 ◼ ► like the same kinds of nerds no no but that was a funny one it just so happened to be a really funny
00:42:55 ◼ ► connection no in fact it can be the knowledge base can be pretty diverse there were definitely a lot of
00:43:00 ◼ ► cases where we're in the green room watching and people and then nobody answers on stage and we are
00:43:04 ◼ ► shouting in the green room we're like come on oh really uh so yeah some people know and some people
00:43:09 ◼ ► don't and that's just sort of how it is it is so it's different it's different kinds of nerds all all
00:43:14 ◼ ► over the case but in this case yeah jordan and i had a bunch of things in common which was pretty funny
00:43:17 ◼ ► although you know she she's better bible questions you'll be shocked to discover because as a as a
00:43:22 ◼ ► priest she knows the bible stuff better than i do and leprosy questions but i guess there's a lot of
00:43:27 ◼ ► those in the bible i mean leprosy it is it is bible adjacent why was there a category about leprosy of
00:43:34 ◼ ► all things why wasn't there i mean great question interesting right great question yeah so i want to
00:43:39 ◼ ► talk about the game itself a little bit yes you got the first answer so you buzzed in got the first
00:43:44 ◼ ► answer that must have felt good at that moment lauren said that's when she relaxed i mean it did feel
00:43:48 ◼ ► good in the moment but lauren was like a feel felt relieved that i was able to buzz in an answer
00:43:53 ◼ ► yeah because she had watched the whole she stayed been there all day and and a little bit of context
00:43:58 ◼ ► here i told people they should watch all week because it there's a it's a real ride um jamie that
00:44:04 ◼ ► unassuming one game winner um well he he went out monday and demolished the opposition one woman didn't
00:44:12 ◼ ► get to the end she finished below zero and you don't get to even play in final jeopardy it was a runaway
00:44:18 ◼ ► which means he was more than double the the score of the next player so he couldn't be beaten uh on the
00:44:26 ◼ ► second day tuesday he uh set at two he tied one and set one all time all time since 1984 jeopardy record for
00:44:36 ◼ ► performance and episode money right uh well so it was it was not about money he he set a record
00:44:43 ◼ ► on monday for the most money in a season or in that season in that season but on tuesday he set the record
00:44:50 ◼ ► for or tied the record for the most correct answers in a game tied with ken jennings and set the record for
00:44:58 ◼ ► something that's super oblique it's called the coriat score it's basically how much how much money did you
00:45:05 ◼ ► earn separate from daily doubles because daily doubles are random and they're it's a betting thing
00:45:09 ◼ ► and so it's different it's more just like efficiency right and uh he had the best coriat score of all
00:45:15 ◼ ► time so he kept he kept answering the highest value questions which are the hardest questions he answered
00:45:21 ◼ ► most of those right basically in that game he answered everything right i mean it was really brutal he he
00:45:26 ◼ ► because he he answered so many questions correctly and the green room gets really quiet because everybody's
00:45:31 ◼ ► like oh no what's good like he what he didn't come in as a super super player but he is a super player
00:45:36 ◼ ► it's very clear and there was he he ran through a category about fairy tales and i was like oh no this
00:45:40 ◼ ► guy knows everything i was like okay he knows this kind of stuff and that kind of stuff i can kind of
00:45:44 ◼ ► see he's a law student uh he's a bureaucrat i i can see what he's going for here and then in this
00:45:50 ◼ ► other category i'm like yeah let's see how he does with folklore he killed it and i'm like oh no he knows
00:45:54 ◼ ► everything this is going to be a problem it's interesting because you had told me this right and
00:45:57 ◼ ► obviously i've seen some of the stats he didn't seem that strong against the two of you well
00:46:03 ◼ ► yeah i mean there is so there's a common thought uh that that after lunch uh people sag um although we
00:46:09 ◼ ► we we we also were after lunch but we weren't playing all day we were we were stressful but not quite the
00:46:15 ◼ ► same and it was his second day he had to sit all through the previous tape day and only played the
00:46:20 ◼ ► last game and then he had to go back to the hotel and try to get some sleep and then do it all again
00:46:25 ◼ ► so high high degree of difficulty when glenn was on um he won two games thursday friday had to go
00:46:31 ◼ ► back to the hotel slept came back in the next day and he was like i i i can't answer it he lost i've
00:46:36 ◼ ► run out of all my and he lost right so very impressive uh but we will i mean i suppose they
00:46:43 ◼ ► might have some reaction time stats um is i would like to say that it's because jordan and i
00:46:48 ◼ ► are good players i think you were both great jordan was a great player you were both good but very
00:46:53 ◼ ► good players i think i think i think the difference might be that in the other games that jamie was
00:46:59 ◼ ► playing one other person rang in a bunch and the other person i felt really bad there was a second
00:47:05 ◼ ► player who didn't and in our game both of us were getting in on the buzzer and so i think that made a
00:47:12 ◼ ► difference it's a lot harder to beat a player like jamie ding when um it's just you and the and the other
00:47:20 ◼ ► person there is just not buzzing or is just not buzzing in um but whatever the reason yeah without
00:47:26 ◼ ► the context like again i want to point people to tuesday is like i had to face that i had to face a
00:47:30 ◼ ► guy who a couple hours earlier had set an all-time all-time record for jeopardy and um and so yes
00:47:38 ◼ ► buzzing in i mean okay first off watching jamie totally recalibrated our expectations it wasn't like
00:47:44 ◼ ► hey maybe i'll go out there and win it was like we want to give our best yeah and leave it all out
00:47:50 ◼ ► on the floor yeah and make him sweat and if we win we win but like the expectation of winning kind of
00:47:55 ◼ ► dropped away and it was more like let's fight let's fight i think jordan and i both felt that way it's
00:48:00 ◼ ► like let's give him our best and so yeah buzzing in on the first question and getting it right first
00:48:05 ◼ ► off it's like oh right it's jeopardy and second it's like oh i can buzz in he he's gonna let me in
00:48:12 ◼ ► i'm not gonna just sit here while jamie answers questions which is what everybody been doing all
00:48:18 ◼ ► all week up to that point yeah so um that it did feel good and lauren like i said lauren in the audience
00:48:23 ◼ ► was like relieved because she'd watched all of this and she was really relieved that like oh look he buzzed
00:48:29 ◼ ► in and got in now i'll tell you the funniest thing about this is when you watch jeopardy on your couch
00:48:34 ◼ ► you just play along with the players right there's a question you shout out the answer if you know it
00:48:39 ◼ ► and whatever the one the one thing you never do when you're playing on the couch when you get a question
00:48:45 ◼ ► right you get to choose what question gets asked next from a category and a dollar value you don't do
00:48:51 ◼ ► that on the couch no so i get that first question right and then i'm like oh i'm in control now
00:48:57 ◼ ► yeah i guess that is a bit like well now what yeah i'll take i'll take that for for 800 ken uh like
00:49:06 ◼ ► i just what and it was a very funny i think they maybe tightened it up a little bit honestly i'm not
00:49:11 ◼ ► sure i didn't get the impression that you were flustered so they they helped you know in my memory
00:49:16 ◼ ► it took me longer to to i did a lot of like uh let's do this ken and i don't know if i actually
00:49:23 ◼ ► did that or if that was just in my mind but it's not in the show yeah i'm like uh do i have to pick
00:49:29 ◼ ► now jason hello pick hello uh anyway so that that was but then we're just playing the game and what
00:49:36 ◼ ► they tell you when you're trying to prepare is is get couch brain which is you're just playing jeopardy
00:49:40 ◼ ► like you are on your couch so just focus and the focus mike the focus so the board is like this big
00:49:46 ◼ ► blue box with text in it and and they have a giant screen so when they when they reveal a clue the
00:49:52 ◼ ► whole giant wall screen fills up with this blue background with white text on it and i'll tell you
00:49:59 ◼ ► if you if you ask me my memory of the entire taping day other than the breaks my memory is it's like i
00:50:05 ◼ ► just was inside a blue box for half an hour like a blue box where white text flew at you it was just
00:50:11 ◼ ► sensory overload but also focus right you're trying to focus and and like literally you're
00:50:17 ◼ ► playing jeopardy there's lights you're on a stage it's all unnatural the text comes up ken starts
00:50:23 ◼ ► reading it but you can see it and the way your brain has to work is you've got to look at the text
00:50:36 ◼ ► and look at the end of the word and the last few words of the clue to time it right right to hit
00:50:44 ◼ ► right when he finishes that all has to happen yeah you have to read ahead not listen while he's talking
00:50:54 ◼ ► it's a lot is an elite type of person it's well and as a sidebar i'll just say if you go back and
00:51:01 ◼ ► look at old games jeopardy jeopardy didn't used to be this competitive when they went to the internet
00:51:06 ◼ ► and they let anybody take the test and all of that they really and also people talking about
00:51:11 ◼ ► jeopardy strategy and stuff on the internet it totally changed the aspect of the game it is much
00:51:17 ◼ ► harder now the clues are harder the players are better it's it's a different it's hard i mean it's hard
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00:53:09 ◼ ► so there were there were two kind of i would say because i know you so well absolute jason moments
00:53:22 ◼ ► in this tell me about it your the final jeopardy you did not know the answer i could tell by looking
00:53:29 ◼ ► at your face you had no lauren lauren says that she actually saw it's not in the show but she actually
00:53:33 ◼ ► saw when they revealed the clue she saw me go oh no which i don't remember but i was feeling it
00:53:40 ◼ ► because because here's the thing mike there are nightmare categories i joke about this they're the
00:53:44 ◼ ► categories you want to get science sports these are things that i'm always shocked that how many
00:53:49 ◼ ► jeopardy people don't understand science or don't understand sports and it's like i i'm great at that
00:53:54 ◼ ► give me those and then there's the nightmare categories which for me are like the bible
00:53:58 ◼ ► um uh kings with numbers uh french stuff and uh and classic classical music and opera i don't know
00:54:07 ◼ ► these things i just don't know these things so the in final the category was composers and i was like
00:54:11 ◼ ► oh no oh no and i'll tell you nor under normal circumstances i would not bet anything in final jeopardy
00:54:17 ◼ ► but the way final jeopardy works is you've got the score you've earned over the course of the whole game
00:54:21 ◼ ► and then you place a final bet and everybody answers the questions the only time everybody answers the
00:54:26 ◼ ► question together you write it down on a wacom tablet that that displays and um and so that's your moment
00:54:35 ◼ ► and i was in third place with ten thousand dollars and there's math i looked it up before i went on the show
00:54:42 ◼ ► though though and there was there's a website called the jeopardy fan that uh that posted you know yesterday
00:54:49 ◼ ► it was like what what you each of the players should wager i wagered exactly what i was supposed to wager
00:54:54 ◼ ► because what you do is you try to imagine what if you get it right and they both get it wrong and so
00:54:58 ◼ ► you're like well if you're in second place what do you have to bet to be in first place and if you're
00:55:02 ◼ ► in first place what do you have to bet to protect against the person who's going to bet to be in first
00:55:07 ◼ ► place because she could go past you so you've got to protect if you're in third place you want to bet
00:55:12 ◼ ► knowing what they're betting or guessing what they're betting you want to bet so that if you're the only
00:55:17 ◼ ► one to get it right you end up ahead and i couldn't bet zero because the way they were going to bet
00:55:22 ◼ ► that they were going to if they got it wrong they were still going to end up ahead of me so i had to
00:55:27 ◼ ► make some money and so my only scenario which against jamie was really unlikely and again this is all what
00:55:34 ◼ ► you have to do while you're standing on a stage it's it's bizarre they do give you a piece of paper and
00:55:38 ◼ ► they give you a sharpie and they let you do the math in the commercial break and you can have as much
00:55:43 ◼ ► time as you want so i did that math and i was like okay i guess i gotta bet whatever i bet four
00:55:47 ◼ ► thousand forty five hundred dollars forty six hundred dollars i don't know what the number was
00:55:50 ◼ ► but i assure you composers i i don't want that category i i just i'm like i'm not gonna get this
00:56:00 ◼ ► but i had i but you got to play to win right you got to try to win i it would have been imagine if i
00:56:05 ◼ ► had known it and they didn't and i didn't bet anything because i didn't like the category and i lost
00:56:10 ◼ ► like that would be the worst you got to try to win and i could have i could have played it safe and i
00:56:14 ◼ ► actually would have gotten second place if i had um i could have bet zero and gotten second place and
00:56:19 ◼ ► made a thousand more dollars but like you got to play to win right you want to win you want to win the
00:56:23 ◼ ► game so so i go in with 10 000 which i thought was unfair because you didn't get a double jeopardy
00:56:29 ◼ ► and i that that annoyed me it's true we were searching for him and and uh and jordan got two and and
00:56:35 ◼ ► jamie got one and i didn't get any and i i think that made a massive difference to to the to wait to
00:56:40 ◼ ► you being in third it's a huge difference daily double that's it not daily double is what i was
00:56:45 ◼ ► looking for i am very proud of having 10 000 having not hit a i i got i think 15 answers 15 right one
00:56:52 ◼ ► wrong i think was my stat yes you got 15 correct one incorrect so you were second in correct answers
00:56:58 ◼ ► and if you look at the box score i i had the best buzz in percentage which is which is pretty cool too
00:57:05 ◼ ► so i i i did pretty well there so so that your your jason thing was there was just seeing that it was
00:57:13 ◼ ► very obvious that i i had no idea what was going on there is a moment when you get if your answers you
00:57:18 ◼ ► raise your hands that hand raise i've seen you do a thousand times the hand raise i love it it's great
00:57:25 ◼ ► it's a great moment so i i what i found very funny is in watching the show um jordan also did it
00:57:34 ◼ ► you two are the same person it's ridiculous jordan also did it both i mean i wrote down a random
00:57:41 ◼ ► composer because it was like i don't know who this composer is but i'm gonna write a a random i'm
00:57:46 ◼ ► gonna write down you got her she didn't write down anything which i don't understand just pull
00:57:49 ◼ ► any composer out and you might be right um but i did find it very funny that both of us were just like
00:57:54 ◼ ► well i don't know like because absolutely i had no no idea but there's another idea which i think is
00:58:02 ◼ ► more true to your soul which is you answer a question and it's like pop and lock is the answer
00:58:10 ◼ ► right yes and you make a face which is very much like how did i know this and it's just very quick
00:58:20 ◼ ► reaction that you made it's like and you knew it somehow and you i think you surprised yourself that
00:58:26 ◼ ► you knew it it was that was my favorite moment i like rewound that like five times it was a little
00:58:32 ◼ ► more um yeah that was like almost apologetic it's like i mean i know i was in the 80s i know enough
00:58:41 ◼ ► about breakdancing to know that the phrase is pop and lock right yeah and that that for that to be the
00:58:46 ◼ ► question i'm like well i mean it's lock so but i i but in in because then you have to present it right
00:58:51 ◼ ► and so i was like what is lock i mean it's it's very much like uh i i i'm sorry i do know this answer
00:58:57 ◼ ► my favorite answer watching it back because again it's all a blur to me my favorite answer is there's
00:59:01 ◼ ► a question that was they had to recall this csi game for kids because the the powder you used to
00:59:09 ◼ ► to dust for these contained asbestos and i rang in and i was like and instead of just saying what
00:59:16 ◼ ► what are fingerprints i said what is dust for prints i did it like like the detective and ken laughed and
00:59:24 ◼ ► said yeah you don't want to give your kids asbestos that's a bad idea and we moved on but that was a so
00:59:30 ◼ ► that was a kind of a fun a fun moment of um of uh personality shining through but it is so weird
00:59:37 ◼ ► because i mean you're not there to be funny you're there to get the question right you don't want to
00:59:42 ◼ ► mess around but moments there were moments that i couldn't help it right um and you're just reacting
00:59:48 ◼ ► um in the moment and and what's funny is is like afterward ken asked me about one of my answers
00:59:56 ◼ ► because during he was like oh good like he was impressed yeah it was a two thousand dollar
01:00:00 ◼ ► question about the ocean uh deep ocean and uh what what's the word they use for the deep ocean
01:00:06 ◼ ► and i just buzzed in and i was like what is pelagic and ken's like oh good afterward the first thing he
01:00:13 ◼ ► asked me the only thing he really asked me in the post-game interview was jason pelagic where did that
01:00:19 ◼ ► come from and you know what i think what i said there is it came from the deep right it just i don't know
01:00:25 ◼ ► can it came out of the deep ocean of my brain i don't it literally just popped in there although
01:00:31 ◼ ► talking to uh some friends last night uh who are like well yeah like pelagic whales pelagic fish i'm
01:00:36 ◼ ► like well that's literally what went through my brain is like pelagic whale that's a thing
01:00:42 ◼ ► pelagic we'll do it um and but it's a good example of like where does it come from i don't know it just
01:00:49 ◼ ► it just pop and lock just like that so so yeah in the in the stats on uh on the jeopardata website
01:01:11 ◼ ► which meant that i got in 62 of the time which was the highest score for the match um jordan got
01:01:20 ◼ ► in 55 of the time but she only tried 20 um jamie got in 54 of the time he tried 39 and that shows you
01:01:27 ◼ ► how many times he he had an answer he had 39 times where he had an answer but we beat him out 18 of those
01:01:34 ◼ ► times so um so yeah i'm pretty happy with that but um i don't know man like the the you want to give
01:01:44 ◼ ► a good performance but in that moment you you aren't performing you're just trying to play jeopardy and so
01:01:47 ◼ ► i'm i'm very happy that i did dust for prince because like and honestly that came out of um
01:01:54 ◼ ► me saying like dust for these and i'm like well i don't want to leave it out like i do i say prince
01:01:59 ◼ ► do i say fingerprints they probably would say and so i just did the phrase right dust for prince that's
01:02:04 ◼ ► what they would do on csi is dust for prince um but in a moment like it's not calculated like all
01:02:11 ◼ ► this happens so fast reacting to the question like i said parsing it he's reading you're reading the text
01:02:16 ◼ ► do i know this do i have a guess the text is written with clues in it so that like there's two
01:02:22 ◼ ► ways in to get the answer just it's a lot happening all at once so you have an anecdote that you give
01:02:31 ◼ ► during uh jeopardy like ken will come over and he'll like you know get to know the contestant kind of
01:02:39 ◼ ► thing yes your anecdote was having you got to to touch the iphone right yeah listeners to this show
01:02:47 ◼ ► notice you had i linked to it on six colors yesterday the piece i wrote for mac world about
01:02:52 ◼ ► yes i've touched it and and and and that briefing where i i was supposed to ask probing questions of
01:02:59 ◼ ► apple executives and also simultaneously put my hand on and touch the iphone for the first time when
01:03:05 ◼ ► nobody else was going to touch it for six months and like my memory of that and so i wrote it down
01:03:11 ◼ ► as a possible anecdote is is that i'm supposed to be doing an interview and i i i hold this thing in
01:03:16 ◼ ► my hand and i like uh i i have trouble forming sentences because i'm trying i mean really i'm
01:03:22 ◼ ► overwhelmed because this thing is so new and so interesting and i'm supposed to be observing it
01:03:27 ◼ ► this is my only chance and i'm supposed to be asking questions i probably i mean the right thing
01:03:31 ◼ ► to do and probably what i did was say can i just play with this for a minute before we talk but
01:03:34 ◼ ► anyway so i told i told that story what were the other anecdotes that you gave as possible
01:03:40 ◼ ► right i have as our youtube viewers will see here i have the card they give you the card afterward ken
01:03:44 ◼ ► signs it and gives it to you so i have the card that's cute so this is a card that he has that has
01:03:51 ◼ ► your anecdotes and he will choose the one that he wants to talk to you about so that you fill out a
01:03:55 ◼ ► you fill out a pdf before you go that is uh you suggest anecdotes and then there's a questionnaire that
01:04:02 ◼ ► asks you a bunch of leading questions and this is obviously for people who don't come up with good
01:04:07 ◼ ► anecdotes they have other ways in and then the contestant producers come up with a list of five
01:04:12 ◼ ► you know basically after rehearsal i think they pull you aside one by one and um walk through them
01:04:26 ◼ ► with you okay and basically they're like okay tell me this story about the iphone and i tell her the
01:04:32 ◼ ► story she's great and then she asked she asked me again she's like what about um and so the others are
01:04:38 ◼ ► has been writing about apple for over 30 years um hosted a podcast game show based on reading the
01:04:44 ◼ ► back of a trivia card she had me explain that one because the joke there is like hey asking the
01:04:49 ◼ ► answer and getting trying to find a question is harder than it looks ken i don't know if you know
01:04:53 ◼ ► that um uh the incomparable 800 plus episodes of a podcast that spawned the whole network she didn't
01:05:00 ◼ ► even ask about that one and the last one is in college started an online magazine when they basically
01:05:03 ◼ ► didn't exist and i told that story and and then uh she circled the top one about the iphone she says i
01:05:08 ◼ ► think ken will like that one and that was it so the game show is that the relay 10 is that is that
01:05:14 ◼ ► the one you're talking about or is that something else no uh there's a thing that i've done
01:05:18 ◼ ► like three times on incomparable game show called trivial retreat where it's various games based on
01:05:24 ◼ ► reading the back of a trivial pursuit card with the oh sorry and some of it's like make a funny
01:05:28 ◼ ► question uh what do you think the real question is what category is this and there's a bunch it's it's
01:05:34 ◼ ► a it's a tough one because they are you know you're trying to make fun out of a thing where you're really
01:05:38 ◼ ► just looking at a list of answers so which is not actually how jeopardy is constructed but it's
01:05:43 ◼ ► theoretically how jeopardy is constructed anyway so they so the producers circled the first one
01:05:47 ◼ ► it's a do this one now it's ken could have chosen something else but that's what he chose
01:05:51 ◼ ► and we had a little chat so when the game's over how did you feel felt great felt great also so when
01:06:01 ◼ ► you when you go out you go out uh the green room is in the hallway and the audience gets a chance to
01:06:05 ◼ ► take a break between tapings as well so i went out toward the green room to go back to the green room
01:06:10 ◼ ► and lauren was there so she hugged me and she said you did a great job and then and then literally
01:06:16 ◼ ► members of the audience are the studio audience are going by and they see me that i was one of the
01:06:22 ◼ ► players who just played and they all were like you did a great job congratulations which was very sweet
01:06:27 ◼ ► because i finished third but but i feel great and the reason why i felt great even in the moment
01:06:32 ◼ ► was like i said playing jamie ding who qualified for jeopardy's tournament of champions with his fifth
01:06:45 ◼ ► i felt very happy with my performance and jordan's performance and what i have said i said to her
01:06:53 ◼ ► and i've said to my family afterward that on that day was we gave him all we got we were landing punches
01:07:03 ◼ ► we were making him sweat we gave him a good game and he won but we made him work and we played well
01:07:12 ◼ ► both of us i would say as a as a viewer of jeopardy if you get to final jeopardy and all three players
01:07:19 ◼ ► are 10 000 or more dollars that's a good game of jeopardy it felt like that's both of you would have
01:07:27 ◼ ► won on different days with the performance that you put in who can say um because they were both
01:07:32 ◼ ► excellent performances there's some very nice people on the reddit on the jeopardy subreddit
01:07:36 ◼ ► who who said yesterday i think i think under other circumstances jason and jordan both would have
01:07:43 ◼ ► been winners and it's just a tough opponent and that's very kind of them to say we will we'll never
01:07:49 ◼ ► know there is a second chance tournament and sometimes they do pluck people who get destroyed
01:07:54 ◼ ► by a champion and they bring them back um and they look at their stats and maybe they'll judge one of us
01:07:59 ◼ ► to be worthy of playing again i wouldn't count on it but you never know but i i am very happy with
01:08:06 ◼ ► both of our performances it's i mean um it's you said you know jordan and i are so similar gosh she rang in
01:08:13 ◼ ► in front of me so many times jamie did too but like i knew it and she got it and i was like oh jordan you
01:08:20 ◼ ► know so much about this stuff i mean we all knew jamie knew it but yeah i i just again if you had told me
01:08:26 ◼ ► going in bad news jason you're going to finish last you're going to be in final jeopardy but
01:08:30 ◼ ► you're going to finish last i'd be like oh that's kind of a bummer but you know whatever i'm here for
01:08:34 ◼ ► the experience but after that game i feel pretty pretty good about the performance my corey out was
01:08:41 ◼ ► 10 000 i earned 10 000 and didn't get a double a daily double i uh i had the best buzz in i answered 15
01:08:51 ◼ ► right and only one wrong because i decided to get all british about the segue personal transporter and
01:08:56 ◼ ► call it a personal transport that annoyed me by the way i was really annoyed about that because
01:09:02 ◼ ► there was another question where jamie didn't give the full answer and ken let him say i don't know
01:09:08 ◼ ► what the rules are but like he said like one name of a person and he wanted the full name that it really
01:09:14 ◼ ► annoyed me because you were so close that he didn't say yeah that's it there's some literal like
01:09:20 ◼ ► yeah there's rules that i was annoyed until i was ruled wrong i could have said er transporter and it
01:09:25 ◼ ► would have been fine they leave they leave you with a moment but i just i had in that moment i
01:09:30 ◼ ► guessed that it was transport instead of transport it's literally that's actually another one thing
01:09:33 ◼ ► i'm happy about i only got one wrong um at home i say a lot of stupid stuff on the couch because i
01:09:38 ◼ ► answer questions i don't know the answer and i'm just guessing on stage i didn't do that if i didn't
01:09:43 ◼ ► know it i didn't buzz in i i just decided to be very conservative about that maybe that was a
01:09:47 ◼ ► mistake but i think in the end it would have just cost me because i wouldn't have known um
01:09:51 ◼ ► and that's just how it is so um so yeah the it's all about perspective um given that we were going up
01:09:58 ◼ ► against a guy who was who was about to win his fifth game and had set records earlier in the week
01:10:03 ◼ ► i am very happy with my performance because i got 15 right i got a good buzz percentage i answered a
01:10:10 ◼ ► bunch of questions on jeopardy the worry worry was always like you just do badly you don't buzz in
01:10:17 ◼ ► very much you get a bunch of things wrong you say a bunch of stupid stuff on tv you miss and i didn't
01:10:23 ◼ ► feel that way you know you drop some real clangers and miss some real obvious ones or whatever right
01:10:28 ◼ ► yeah yeah i i didn't do that want that i was very proud of you watching it i thought you did an
01:10:33 ◼ ► incredible job and i was i was really disappointed that someone was doing so well because i just thought you
01:10:38 ◼ ► did so well and i think you should be very proud of yourself and i think you did such a great job
01:10:43 ◼ ► i think it's so awesome thank you thank you yeah i had a good time that's the other thing in the end
01:10:47 ◼ ► to back up to what i said before about like don't do it for the money like i i was doing it for the life
01:10:55 ◼ ► experience the whole point of the journey was the life experience yeah it was the friends who made
01:11:00 ◼ ► along the way well i mean i i was not i i woe to that person who's like i would really like to earn
01:11:06 ◼ ► some money i will go on game shows again it's like that was not it i just wanted to have a good time
01:11:10 ◼ ► and feel good about my performance and i do and i met a bunch of i haven't even said this i said this
01:11:14 ◼ ► on another podcast but like being in a room also this this world this world is kind of dark
01:11:22 ◼ ► and if you're somebody who believes in the importance of knowledge and truth it's a tough
01:11:39 ◼ ► all sorts of ages incredible different professions one of the guys aiden who is on they put the irish
01:11:47 ◼ ► guy on saint patrick's day which i loved aiden is a sewer maintenance worker in las vegas
01:11:53 ◼ ► he told a story about how when you're lowered into the sewer and you see the walls glistening
01:12:01 ◼ ► you know that it's bugs but you just don't pay attention to it oh god uh so so my point is
01:12:08 ◼ ► such a great group and these people were smart and interesting and and just like and and there is
01:12:15 ◼ ► truth in the fact that you are a bunch of people put in a high stress situation together and there
01:12:21 ◼ ► is some bonding that happens among that group like those people were awesome i have nothing bad to say
01:12:26 ◼ ► about any of them it was so great to spend a day with them it was very sad when some of them lost and
01:12:31 ◼ ► they were visibly upset and some of them didn't come back after lunch because they just couldn't
01:12:35 ◼ ► anymore um because you know everybody reacts so much to them and and yeah and everybody barely a
01:12:42 ◼ ► lifelong dream for some of them and and everybody reacts different to stress but like i just it was
01:12:47 ◼ ► a moment where i was with a whole bunch of very smart people from all over north america who care
01:12:53 ◼ ► about like knowledge and facts in an environment that's all about knowledge and facts and reality
01:13:00 ◼ ► and that was really special because there's it's a it was a special little zone where that mattered
01:13:05 ◼ ► in our world and so it was a it was a great experience and that's why i went into it was for the experience
01:13:11 ◼ ► it's been fun since i taped it i've gotten to enjoy the jeopardy part as we've approached tape day
01:13:17 ◼ ► uh going into it i had trepidation right i was trying to enjoy it but i also had to i wanted to do well
01:13:31 ◼ ► i finally got that full enjoyment out of it this last month um and in the week leading up to and
01:13:36 ◼ ► being able to talk and pop it into the the jeopardy subreddit to give details about the week since i was
01:13:42 ◼ ► an eyewitness to it i got to like talk about that a little bit my knowledge of jeopardy ends tonight
01:13:46 ◼ ► i don't know what how i know what happens tonight because i was in the audience but i don't know after
01:13:50 ◼ ► that um although i know who i'm rooting for in the tournament of champions i am jamie ding all the way
01:13:55 ◼ ► now i want to lose to a legend yeah if i'm gonna lose i want to lose to a legend but um yeah so
01:14:04 ◼ ► great experience and that was what i was going for right you know like great item on my on my life
01:14:09 ◼ ► list to say that i did it and i feel like i held my head up high and uh and in other circumstances
01:14:14 ◼ ► would it have been great to win it sure i i i'll leave you with this i i asked elliot calen from
01:14:20 ◼ ► the flop house for advice he was on and got a really bad board and lost and i said do you have
01:14:25 ◼ ► any advice for me as a jeopardy player and he said uh yeah don't um don't face a returning 15 day
01:14:32 ◼ ► jeopardy champion and after i was done i emailed elliot and i was like well about that but uh great
01:14:39 ◼ ► experience fantastic but is it a problem now that forever dan moron can hold over you that he won
01:14:47 ◼ ► is this an issue dan and well how many jeopardy champions do i know because it's dan and glenn
01:14:53 ◼ ► glenn yeah and my friend jeff duncan they all were multi-day champions uh it's okay because i have a
01:14:59 ◼ ► champions text thread now that you're not allowed probably that i'm not going to get in but i would
01:15:04 ◼ ► say i would say like they say when you show up for the show getting on the show is the biggest
01:15:11 ◼ ► accomplishment everything else is a bonus and i think if you i'm sure dan is very happy that
01:15:18 ◼ ► that he's got that over me i i think he was rooting for me but i think that that's a good thing
01:15:28 ◼ ► yeah that guy was a really tough guy to play i'm glad i didn't have to play i mean i talked to dan
01:15:34 ◼ ► about it it's that it's very much the i'm uh uh you know he he there was a uh a recurring champion
01:15:41 ◼ ► who got beat and then dan beat the person who beat that person and it's like that's the luck of the
01:15:45 ◼ ► draw some of it is luck i'm happy with my scores i wish i had won um but i'm happy to give dan and
01:15:51 ◼ ► glenn the uh the two-day champion i will just remain forever a jeopardy producer and or a jeopardy
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01:18:37 ◼ ► so we are planning basically from now until the end of april a whole series of coverage around apple's
01:18:50 ◼ ► 50th anniversary um we're both pretty excited about some of the stuff that we've got planned but we're
01:18:56 ◼ ► starting it today uh with a special interview jason do you want to talk about this yeah i got to talk to
01:19:02 ◼ ► david poge whose book i reviewed for the wall street journal and he was surprised by that um
01:19:06 ◼ ► and we i just wanted to talk to him about his book apple the first 50 years which just came out is
01:19:11 ◼ ► available everywhere and uh i go way back with david because he wrote for mac world when uh before i
01:19:17 ◼ ► worked there and then when i worked there and he wrote some stories for me and all of that um and so
01:19:22 ◼ ► we got the opportunity he's been making the rounds he was just on the talk show he's he's he's he's
01:19:27 ◼ ► gonna be on mac break weekly he's getting around he's doing how he uses as well he was i uh i feel
01:19:33 ◼ ► like we went to some places that other podcasts maybe didn't go with him and uh it was a great
01:19:37 ◼ ► conversation so here it is david thank you so much for being here how weird we go back a long way i mean
01:19:48 ◼ ► i was i was gonna say so i i reviewed your book for the wall street journal and we were saying before we
01:19:52 ◼ ► got started like did they ask about disclaiming prior relationship and it's like i did tell them that
01:19:57 ◼ ► i edited you wrote a many feature stories for me included as a features a young features editor
01:20:03 ◼ ► you wrote about the palm pilot are you actually older than me are you are you a senior editor
01:20:10 ◼ ► qualified i am i am i i guess i could join i could live in my mom's 55 plus community as of last year
01:20:17 ◼ ► so how old are you 55 you're 55 i am you were my editor and i was older than you yeah oh yeah yeah
01:20:26 ◼ ► yo no you were mr backpage columnist in mac world at that point um i was talking about it to andy and
01:20:31 ◼ ► not co about this and you uh and he was like yeah i took over when david for the new york times i'm
01:20:36 ◼ ► like oh yeah that's right i saw that mac break weekly podcast that was a great that's right i'm gonna
01:20:40 ◼ ► listen to that segment every time i ever get depressed because that was you three guys were like
01:20:44 ◼ ► oh he was such a good guy yeah right and then we were so happy when you when you got the so you
01:20:49 ◼ ► worked at the new york times and uh and you do you've done like a bunch of pbs nova and cbs sunday
01:20:55 ◼ ► morning uh many books along the way missing manuals this is this is not apple the missing manual though
01:21:00 ◼ ► it is apple the first 50 years and one of the things that struck me while i was reading it
01:21:06 ◼ ► as i said before we started on the beach in hawaii because i got assigned this review right before i went
01:21:11 ◼ ► on vacation and your book is very long david i 50 years deserves length i guess it's not a like a
01:21:19 ◼ ► short history before i cut it down to 600 pages did they come literally we can't make books this large
01:21:25 ◼ ► that's not possible there was a crisis moment at simon and schuster when in last uh late last summer
01:21:32 ◼ ► where there's like you're gonna have to cut a third oh my god now it turns out they were they were
01:21:39 ◼ ► wrong about that they had they they assumed they knew there was 350 color illustrations but they assumed
01:21:46 ◼ ► that there would be no text wrap around some of them so it actually turned out to be much uh
01:21:52 ◼ ► not i didn't have to cut nearly as much you saved a little bit there but i will say this i will say
01:21:58 ◼ ► this and only to you only to this to this podcast do not tell anyone in the audiobook version of this
01:22:28 ◼ ► nice very nice i i you say three 23 and a half hours and my first thought is what david you
01:22:33 ◼ ► couldn't go for the full 24 i know my day with david and apple i didn't know so one of the things
01:22:42 ◼ ► that that struck me while i was reading it in hawaii and that i put in my review is the fact that so much
01:22:48 ◼ ► that we get about tech is about products and people it's these big egos and these big characters
01:22:57 ◼ ► including many who worked at apple and it's the products as they come out and you you know that
01:23:02 ◼ ► as well as anybody that that those are the two sort of paths of this did you go in to this book thinking
01:23:09 ◼ ► this isn't this is about this is a biography of the company because that's how it felt to me is like
01:23:15 ◼ ► we don't see that very often where this is this is not about steve jobs and it's not about the ipod
01:23:21 ◼ ► it is a biography of this 50 year old which means that we're both older uh 50 year old company is that
01:23:29 ◼ ► sort of what you were thinking uh it is it's very much a biography but i i thought that most of the
01:23:37 ◼ ► existing books which were written by business journalists right uh focused almost exclusively
01:23:44 ◼ ► uh including walter isaacson's book focused almost exclusively on the scandal the people the illegitimate
01:23:51 ◼ ► daughters the adoption blah blah blah and to me this book was going to be like severance you know
01:23:58 ◼ ► everything that happens after you leave the workplace i don't care about i want to know about the products
01:24:04 ◼ ► i wanted this to be a lot of origin stories um how did they come up with x and what were the products
01:24:12 ◼ ► that didn't cross the finish line and what were the cultural effects of the product so of course there
01:24:19 ◼ ► is the usual you know steve jobs battled with scully and some of that stuff but the focus is not
01:24:25 ◼ ► corporate backstabbing and who's jockeying to be the new ceo um if i had one critique of your critique
01:24:32 ◼ ► uh you were absolutely right in your wall street journal um article that uh they did give me
01:24:39 ◼ ► exclusive access to all the current executive team and they had been media trained to the hilt not to
01:24:46 ◼ ► say anything uh scandalous um there was a pr person in the room for all of these interviews um and they
01:24:54 ◼ ► said we will retain the right to strike things from the record but in all those interviews four entire
01:25:01 ◼ ► days of our block interviews at apple park they only struck one thing and that was that was when
01:25:08 ◼ ► someone said when i met steve jobs and he told me that he wanted to make the company a consumer
01:25:13 ◼ ► electronics company i said what the f are you smoking and that was probably and all they cared about was
01:25:22 ◼ ► they wanted me to take the f word yeah that's anyway so um but but what i did get out of it
01:25:29 ◼ ► was the origin story stuff that that i wanted you know that the making of face id that the apple watch
01:25:37 ◼ ► stuff i mean i i had never read that for a year they walked walked around with little ipod nanos
01:25:44 ◼ ► the little square one yeah with with a screen that all the fans were making his watches right
01:25:49 ◼ ► yeah that's right that's right so they they walked around with velcroed apple nanos uh ipod nanos on
01:25:56 ◼ ► the wrist while they were trying to work out what the apple watch was going to be so yeah i i found value
01:26:01 ◼ ► in the in the stuff they did tell me but but you're right you're not going to find you know john turnus
01:26:08 ◼ ► naked in a hot tub right like well there's going to be like there's going to be a wild maybe maybe
01:26:13 ◼ ► not maybe apple is a different company now but my thought was like there's probably a wide wild story
01:26:17 ◼ ► to be told about the invention of the apple watch um and those people still work at apple and they're
01:26:22 ◼ ► not going to tell that story for another 20 years and that's i mean as i'm so it is a sweeping book
01:26:27 ◼ ► um and one of the things that i noticed in the grand sweep of it is early on there are lots of
01:26:34 ◼ ► stories because that those stories have been told and told again and there are other books that have
01:26:38 ◼ ► been written about them and then as you move toward the present obviously just because of time there
01:26:43 ◼ ► are fewer of them and so when you get in the last portion of the book yeah those people still work
01:26:48 ◼ ► at apple in large in large part and so i could feel maybe it's me because i've been inside the
01:26:54 ◼ ► apple pr spin cycle as well but i could tell that these are things people are saying with a pr handler
01:27:00 ◼ ► in the room i think it's amazing i have to say i think it's amazing that they cooperated with you
01:27:05 ◼ ► right because they i i was surprised when i saw not that you did a bunch of interviews but you did a
01:27:10 ◼ ► bunch of interviews with apple employees which means that this is not an authorized biography or anything
01:27:15 ◼ ► but apple cooperated with you and up to the point where you have a full tim cook interview that was
01:27:22 ◼ ► posted on uh sunday morning's youtube channel right like so how did that did you expect that or did
01:27:28 ◼ ► you ask sort of hoping but not expecting them to participate the latter i i was really i was just
01:27:35 ◼ ► sick to my stomach because i had lots of source material for everything until the last 15 years
01:27:41 ◼ ► and they're all still there i mean apple executives stay for decades they won't leave i was just talking
01:27:47 ◼ ► to greg jazwiak and and and uh phil schiller both of whom i had conversations with at macworld in the 90s
01:27:54 ◼ ► right and they're still there still there don't leave um yeah so i just um you know i pitched them
01:28:02 ◼ ► on the book and they you know they said uh you know we don't really uh let current employees talk to
01:28:10 ◼ ► journalists i'm like i know but think of this as a like a 50-year biography a retrospective it's it's
01:28:17 ◼ ► going to be and i said i'm you know this isn't a uh a backstabbing like like one of those apple books
01:28:23 ◼ ► i read the subtitle literally was inside the scheming and backstabbing of america's biggest
01:28:31 ◼ ► yeah i have that book like it's a pretty good book but that's what the angle is for that also and there's
01:28:36 ◼ ► one there's like a jobs biography that's called icon but you can read it as i con and i'm like what
01:28:43 ◼ ► what are you doing okay so they they i also get the sense because they've mentioned this a couple
01:28:47 ◼ ► times and tim cook mentioned it in his interview with you is it possible that your queries about
01:28:53 ◼ ► this made them realize they were going to have to come up with a strategy for the 50th anniversary
01:28:57 ◼ ► i mean who knows but i think yes because you were in advance right because you're writing a book so
01:29:03 ◼ ► you're well in advance but it must have been a red flag like oh that's next year oh no right what are
01:29:08 ◼ ► we gonna do well that was part of the answer is we don't look backward we look forward as a company
01:29:15 ◼ ► that's why we're not going to help you and that's why we're not sure it sounded like they weren't going
01:29:19 ◼ ► to do it and and and they did confirm that there would not be a book um so there was that um so yeah
01:29:26 ◼ ► it was just six months of back and forth and haranguing uh i sent them a sample chapter um so they could
01:29:32 ◼ ► get a taste of the tone and i don't know why they changed their mind but in the end they finally
01:29:39 ◼ ► said okay we're going to set you up with some interviews and we will get you in touch with our
01:29:46 ◼ ► archivist that's great so anything you need so there are some to me incredible photos in the book of you
01:29:53 ◼ ► know original documents and and oh yeah ancient ads and user manuals and and and these like like
01:29:59 ◼ ► if i asked you could you describe the first ceo mike scott could you tell me what he looked like oh my
01:30:05 ◼ ► god no one knows i would think of the old houston astros pitcher that's who i'd think of mike scott
01:30:10 ◼ ► is it the same guy it was not the same guy scotty they called him and how about this he was one of
01:30:18 ◼ ► four people who died during the or or developed um dementia during the writing of the book he died
01:30:26 ◼ ► last fall does anybody know that apple's first ceo just died was there a press release nothing nothing
01:30:35 ◼ ► nothing nothing that happens it's funny i was listening to john gruber's interview a few months
01:30:39 ◼ ► ago with um i think i wrote the apple and china book really good book i did a little sidebar in the
01:30:43 ◼ ► wall street journal where they're like how about other books and i was like well that one is i feel like
01:30:47 ◼ ► at this point the definitive tim cook era book because that's so much of what tim is about anyway
01:30:52 ◼ ► they they were they were having the same conversation right which is you learn something for a book and
01:30:58 ◼ ► the deadlines are so long and you're like surely someone else will notice this and he said that in
01:31:05 ◼ ► several cases no one did and so he got to break news in a book which is very hard to do so i like because
01:31:12 ◼ ► who else who else is scrutinizing at that level right david like you were scrutinizing things that
01:31:16 ◼ ► all the rest of us are writing our apple at 50 stuff like this month and you were thinking you
01:31:21 ◼ ► were living there last year so you got it i do think you were the red flag you were the canary in
01:31:27 ◼ ► the coal mine where they realized there's going to be enormous media interest here and we need to have
01:31:31 ◼ ► a strategy of what we're going to do in 2026 because people are going to keep on talking about this
01:31:37 ◼ ► and that maybe you were the test case or maybe you were just the flag i'm glad that they um they work
01:31:42 ◼ ► with you and that they opened up so i don't know if you know this or remember this but when the mac
01:31:47 ◼ ► turned 20 i interviewed steve jobs it's the only one-on-one interview i ever had with steve jobs
01:31:52 ◼ ► it lasted about three minutes he didn't want to be there it was a phone interview and um the ground
01:31:59 ◼ ► rules were you can't ask about future products because we'll never talk about it and you can't
01:32:04 ◼ ► talk about the past i was like well what are we left with at that point it was the most
01:32:10 ◼ ► profound we printed every word he said in mac world because he said very little and but but that was his
01:32:17 ◼ ► attitude right which was next next thing and and apple university which they have built to kind of keep
01:32:24 ◼ ► the culture alive that's one of the things they teach right is focus on what's next so this is a big
01:32:29 ◼ ► gearshift for them to even remotely deal with the past it is and as you probably know from uh you know
01:32:38 ◼ ► german's amazing leak column in bloomberg uh just uh three weeks ago tim cook announced to the company
01:32:46 ◼ ► not publicly but internally that that we're going to do some stuff yeah yeah and my guess is that it's
01:32:53 ◼ ► you know videos and podcasts that kind of thing yeah and cooperating with you and your book which
01:32:58 ◼ ► is great what what do you think so one of the things that i've been pondering especially in the framing of
01:33:03 ◼ ► of your book as a biography um obviously you know we anybody who's been thinking about apple a long time
01:33:09 ◼ ► has these thoughts which is and you talked to was it's in the sunday morning piece actually which i
01:33:15 ◼ ► really liked um of what remains like are there aspects of what apple was in the 70s when it was
01:33:23 ◼ ► this tiny operation that emerged from the homebrew computing scene in an era of silicon valley where
01:33:30 ◼ ► there were still fruit trees everywhere does something even now remain that was sort of part of the
01:33:38 ◼ ► culture in the early days is there a trace of that left a through line i i think an incredible amount
01:33:44 ◼ ► astonishing for a 50 year old company that's had six ceos i mean absolutely amazing um i as i am fond
01:33:53 ◼ ► of repeating samsung started out as a dried fish vendor and nokia was originally a paper mill right
01:34:07 ◼ ► but apple its mission statement has never changed it's take advanced complex technology
01:34:15 ◼ ► and make it pretty and simple enough for everyday people to use that's still the mission and i mean
01:34:22 ◼ ► there's also as you know from the book there's a whole chapter just on the through lines that have
01:34:27 ◼ ► not changed that are all things that jobs started you know the obsession with secrecy um the small teams
01:34:34 ◼ ► on tight deadlines working in isolation um they i don't hear this talked about a lot but apple
01:34:41 ◼ ► makes a lot of acquisitions of other company but there are other companies but they're little
01:34:45 ◼ ► tiny targeted no namo companies you know meta and microsoft and google they buy three four billion
01:34:52 ◼ ► dollar you know they buy whatsapp you know they buy instagram but apple has never done that except for
01:34:56 ◼ ► the the beats acquisition um rounded rect rounded corners rounded corners right round rex every window
01:35:03 ◼ ► every key every power brick every laptop watch even though polishing cloth for 19 dollars it has rounded
01:35:10 ◼ ► corners that was a steve jobs thing um let's see uh oh the debate culture was really interesting so many
01:35:19 ◼ ► people told me how much ranting and screaming goes on in those apple meetings um but the rule is you got
01:35:28 ◼ ► to do all your screaming within the confines of these planning meetings and once the doors open and you leave
01:35:35 ◼ ► you're agreed and no one's allowed to say yeah i used to i told you you know right so uh it's why even even
01:35:42 ◼ ► cook said that in in the interview last week so throw down in the meeting get it all out it's going
01:35:48 ◼ ► to lead to the best result once we agree on the results we're all aligned and we walk out of the
01:35:52 ◼ ► meeting agreed you said it better than i did that's that's exactly right that's a real i mean jobs like
01:35:59 ◼ ► i think i feel like steve jobs simultaneously can be understated and overstated when it comes to apple's
01:36:04 ◼ ► history because like he he gets so much of the attention and obviously there's so many you talk to so
01:36:12 ◼ ► so many people who are involved in key things that happened in the history of apple and yet at the same
01:36:16 ◼ ► time i i i think a lot of us said like apple park was apple was steve jobs's like final product in some
01:36:24 ◼ ► ways i do think that steve jobs thought that apple was his product and when he came back and saw how it
01:36:31 ◼ ► had drifted and i want to talk to you about the time at the interregnum but when he saw how it drifted
01:36:36 ◼ ► that's one of the reasons i think apple university happened is he was like how do i stop culture drift so
01:36:40 ◼ ► that the culture we can build here will will not drift and sustain it'll sustain and not fall apart
01:36:46 ◼ ► and and and sometimes that's for the better and i would argue sometimes it's for the worst because
01:36:51 ◼ ► conditions change and the culture is trying to fight against change but i do think that that provides a
01:36:58 ◼ ► bit of a through line because steve created a culture then it drifted he came back and he built like
01:37:05 ◼ ► reinforcing material to try and keep that culture going and and you can see even today that that
01:37:12 ◼ ► he's largely done that which is funny because the big story that tim cook tells about jobs is dying
01:37:18 ◼ ► advice don't ask what steve would do just do what's right right every thought in their heads every day
01:37:25 ◼ ► is what would steve do don't do don't do what's right do what is or do what's right as defined in
01:37:30 ◼ ► apple's corporate culture which was laid down by steve jobs by the way i i do think there as as i watch you
01:37:36 ◼ ► know we talk about this week on week on upgrade um apple behaving from a position of strength that it never
01:37:42 ◼ ► had really ever under steve jobs that there comes a time where you wonder are parts of your playbook out of
01:37:48 ◼ ► date because you're now the big you're the bully and not the underdog anymore and i i wonder if
01:37:55 ◼ ► we have new leadership at apple in the next few years if one of the things they're going to need
01:37:59 ◼ ► to do is go back to that touchstone of do what's right and and are all of the precepts of the corporate
01:38:06 ◼ ► culture still um do they fit when you're no longer the plucky underdog that apple was for the first
01:38:13 ◼ ► 25 30 years of existence i don't know um but it's a it's a it's an interesting question
01:38:19 ◼ ► the other so the other through line that i thought is um i do think jobs is obsession with the computer
01:38:27 ◼ ► for the rest of us was there from the very beginning and that's what you said about packaging technology
01:38:32 ◼ ► in a way that people could understand it even the those stories that you've got about the original apple
01:38:36 ◼ ► 2 and trying to find out somebody who would make a plastic case and trying to get the paint right
01:38:42 ◼ ► and they didn't but they eventually did but that whole putting a computer in a plastic case like
01:38:48 ◼ ► seems real obvious but the the previous ones like the apple 2 apple ones you see are all like screwed
01:38:54 ◼ ► down to wooden frames and stuff and or or that wasn't there like a cabinet maker who made a wood box to
01:39:00 ◼ ► put your apple that's right i i interviewed him yeah like what it's a great story but also you're like
01:39:05 ◼ ► what that was what it was like and so that that moment when steve jobs hears from the computer store
01:39:10 ◼ ► that they'd like them pre-assembled please and the idea that maybe you could put it in a case
01:39:16 ◼ ► and then so they go to the west coast computer fair with this beige apple 2 in a case the productizing
01:39:23 ◼ ► of it like we we talk about the mac being the computer for the rest of us but you can see it in steve jobs's
01:39:27 ◼ ► brain with the apple 2 like we need to make this a product people will buy who are not gonna install their own
01:39:34 ◼ ► chips and screw it to a wood frame we just want it to be a product people can buy and that through line
01:39:41 ◼ ► does follow all the way to the you know the ipod and the ipad but also i think you're bringing up a
01:39:46 ◼ ► bigger point that people totally miss and totally take for granted which is that this is one of the
01:39:52 ◼ ► ways jobs is underrated he decided that computers should be attractive i mean it's a tool you don't
01:40:01 ◼ ► care what your wrench looks like you don't care what your power drill looks like when he came along
01:40:07 ◼ ► computers were those they were metal boxes with sharp corners yeah and lights and switches and
01:40:13 ◼ ► ugly and they had vents and fans and it was he who decided why can't these be beautiful it just
01:40:21 ◼ ► hadn't occurred to anyone before and then the magical thing which i think also is kind of a through line
01:40:26 ◼ ► it's not it's not with was anymore right was was was there in the early days and then and then he left
01:40:31 ◼ ► and has not really been back since but the through line remains which is you have to couple that with
01:40:36 ◼ ► some technical brilliance and the that that magical partnership that got it started right well because
01:40:41 ◼ ► was i think is there anybody who would deny that that he's a genius like there are so many stories
01:40:46 ◼ ► in the early parts of your book about his invention of the apple one and the apple two where he really
01:40:51 ◼ ► did invent it and even when he didn't invent it like the disk drive which really put the apple two over
01:40:56 ◼ ► the top there was a mechanism out there and they're like we don't want the whole thing we just want
01:41:00 ◼ ► part of it and was will take care of the rest and like that differentiated the apple two is that was was
01:41:05 ◼ ► just he was able to make steve jobs's dream kind of real by being able to do these incredible things
01:41:12 ◼ ► with the the low level technology of hardware and software right yeah and and there's a through line
01:41:18 ◼ ► of jobs there too that unfortunately didn't occur to me until after the book was done but jobs's greatest
01:41:24 ◼ ► eras three times were when he glommed on to a mentor or glommed on to a talent a collaborator
01:41:32 ◼ ► and like he became you know soulmates and best friends with was he became soulmates and best
01:41:39 ◼ ► friends with scully i mean those guys were like super bonded they and johnny at conference they
01:41:45 ◼ ► would share a hotel room on conference yeah and then it was johnny ive you know yeah and i think and
01:41:51 ◼ ► and they made each other better because they filled each other's weaknesses right like that was the idea
01:41:55 ◼ ► there and jobs and scully maybe they were a little too closely aligned because jobs turned out to be a ceo
01:42:01 ◼ ► himself and he thought he was and he wasn't ready but like i can see it and with with with was and with
01:42:06 ◼ ► johnny i'd never really thought about that too you're absolutely right that there's this alignment of
01:42:10 ◼ ► of uh they've got these kind of interleaved skill sets where i would argue after steve died johnny kind
01:42:17 ◼ ► of was unmoored a little bit because he didn't have steve there to say no not that johnny uh who's going to
01:42:22 ◼ ► say no to sir johnny ive well steve jobs would uh but johnny i would also push on on steve and and and
01:42:28 ◼ ► the and the steves in the early days like like what a what a great combination the other thing i thought
01:42:33 ◼ ► about reading your book that i thought was um taking me back to the 70s right i was a kid in the 70s
01:42:38 ◼ ► i remember first time i saw a personal computer you know in the in that area everybody was like you
01:42:43 ◼ ► got to show kids computers because computers are the future and they weren't wrong it was very vague but
01:42:48 ◼ ► like they weren't wrong computers are the future we are surrounded by computers now but a through line
01:42:53 ◼ ► that i hadn't considered before is the idea that in the early days of computers everybody had their own
01:42:59 ◼ ► thing they were all incompatible with you with each other you built the hardware you built the software
01:43:05 ◼ ► maybe they all ran basic but they ran different versions of basic maybe they had some of the same
01:43:09 ◼ ► chips but you know you couldn't actually run the same programs on them they had to be ported to the
01:43:14 ◼ ► different systems and what happened in the 80s is everything else got monolithic all the trs 80s the
01:43:21 ◼ ► commodore pets and and 64s all of that stuff kind of fell away and all that was left was wintel right
01:43:29 ◼ ► all of those left was dos and windows and intel uh ibm pc compatible computers except for apple right like
01:43:37 ◼ ► apple is still doing today what they did in 1978 which is what everybody did in 1978 make the
01:43:43 ◼ ► hardware and the software as an integrated unit it's not compatible with anything else too bad it's a
01:43:48 ◼ ► it's a single product and i hadn't thought about that before that like the rest of the industry used
01:43:54 ◼ ► to do that and then it all burned away in the pc era except for apple yeah i mean jobs was freakishly
01:44:01 ◼ ► right about so many things i mean he really could see around corners and and we can talk about that
01:44:07 ◼ ► that there's a thousand examples but he also made some whopping mistakes he made some huge wrong bets
01:44:14 ◼ ► oh yeah and one of them was you know the ipod he said over my dead body will we make that for windows
01:44:22 ◼ ► that's going to be a mac at a time when the mac had three percent market share yeah he said this is going to
01:44:28 ◼ ► be for mac only and you know a year later his you know schiller and and the other guys uh rubenstein
01:44:35 ◼ ► persuaded him no no you got to do it and then the second was with the iphone again the first iphone was
01:44:41 ◼ ► an okay seller for the first year when all you had was 16 apps yep that apple gave you and that was it
01:44:49 ◼ ► there were no games there was no banking certainly was no uber doordash tinder airbnb none of those social
01:44:55 ◼ ► media um and then the following year they opened it up to an app store over jobs's great unhappiness
01:45:03 ◼ ► and so one of the through lines of apple is closed systems from the very beginning of of the two steves
01:45:11 ◼ ► arguing about whether or not the apple 2 should have slots and jobs was like okay two modem and printer
01:45:17 ◼ ► but that's it and was was like no no eight man and and was who is like truly the gentlest sweetest teddy
01:45:26 ◼ ► bear of a person yeah who never wanted to start a company didn't care about making money literally
01:45:31 ◼ ► gave away all his riches from apple gave it away um he said for the one and only time that i know in
01:45:38 ◼ ► their history if you want a two-slot computer go find yourself another collaborator and jobs had to
01:45:45 ◼ ► to capitulate but but the jury is kind of out on the closed versus open right jobs's argument was that if
01:45:52 ◼ ► we open it up to app developers it'll be overrun by porn and hate and crud and stuff that doesn't work
01:45:59 ◼ ► well now google was much more open with the android store and that's kind of what they got and you know
01:46:06 ◼ ► microsoft with its with its windows that was you know jerry-rigged to work on every different hardware company's computers
01:46:13 ◼ ► um so apple won with its closed policies right it's the dominant tech company in terms of hardware
01:46:21 ◼ ► um but android won globally with the market share of the android phone so no one's really sure who was right on that issue
01:46:30 ◼ ► yeah and and we've seen like google it's a great example where google has and they've run in some legal issues
01:46:36 ◼ ► because of it after they launched the play store they have tried to crank up the control a little bit
01:46:42 ◼ ► because they realized they wanted a little more control and they wanted to make some money
01:46:45 ◼ ► and the epic lawsuit one of the reasons that epic won that and they settled ultimately was because google
01:46:52 ◼ ► google set out the door that they were open and then they tried to close the door whereas apple
01:46:59 ◼ ► never said that they were open and that has been a harder harder case to make legally than google but
01:47:04 ◼ ► you could see google looking over at apple and saying actually that's kind of not a bad idea to be more
01:47:08 ◼ ► like apple um but i i think yeah in the end jobs just jobs thinks jobs always thought about the product
01:47:20 ◼ ► i want to keep it simple i want to have that control and and you you do see that it is obviously
01:47:24 ◼ ► successful with them i would say there's that story about how they make more profit in the smartphone
01:47:29 ◼ ► industry than anybody even though they don't have the market share i think that is really illustrative of
01:47:35 ◼ ► of what their goal was is not everybody's going to want to spend more money on what apple considers
01:47:40 ◼ ► the better and more refined product that's just not reality and apple's kind of okay with it
01:47:45 ◼ ► as long as they can stay alive and and they they make so much money that they're they're doing fine
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01:49:48 ◼ ► for their support of this show and all of relay another thing i wanted to ask you about because
01:49:55 ◼ ► you cover these distinct eras and it is funny they have i suppose again a biography of a human being we
01:50:01 ◼ ► all have our distinct eras too probably right not just taylor swift all of us have those distinct
01:50:05 ◼ ► terrorists but i wanted to talk to you about the interregnum when jobs was gone because i mentioned
01:50:11 ◼ ► this in my review it's so much history just gets flattened and and and you can flatten the interregnum
01:50:19 ◼ ► to it was a disaster and they almost died and then jobs came back and saved the day but that covers like
01:50:28 ◼ ► almost it's like more than a decade and what you and i entered in the mac world in those
01:50:35 ◼ ► early-ish days that's after jobs was gone jobs was kicked out so quickly from the mac and like he
01:50:43 ◼ ► didn't want you talk about slots he didn't want there to be a mac with slots but they did the two
01:50:47 ◼ ► and the two c and the and all of those systems and the se and they they like there were a bunch of
01:50:55 ◼ ► great things in the early days of the mac that jobs was gone and probably would have fought against and
01:51:00 ◼ ► then you throw in the power book which was such a huge success and defined what a laptop would be and
01:51:07 ◼ ► that's long job is long gone by that point and then even the newton is i think i had not really
01:51:15 ◼ ► thought about this until i read your book from the perspective of 2026 it's really easy to look at the
01:51:20 ◼ ► newton and say well they weren't wrong they were just way too early and too ambitious to to do that
01:51:26 ◼ ► product when they did um is that did you did your thoughts when you looked at it closely change about
01:51:33 ◼ ► what the role of that interregnum was in apple's history a hundred percent and um as you know at
01:51:39 ◼ ► the end of the last chapter of that there's an outline of all these things that apple accomplished
01:51:44 ◼ ► and did during the dark years again as you say the power book sold a billion dollars worth of laptops
01:51:50 ◼ ► the first year and redefined the layout of laptops for forever yeah um quick time they developed quick
01:51:58 ◼ ► time they had speech recognition um as you say the the newton led to developments that paid off on
01:52:06 ◼ ► on the the iphone um there was a lot that that happened during that time there you you must know
01:52:13 ◼ ► who chris espinosa is of course i bet chris the employee number seven yeah he's the only person who
01:52:21 ◼ ► has been at apple for all 50 years and he's still there yeah and which which made it awkward when i
01:52:27 ◼ ► sought help from him fortunately the man has a steel trap mind he's a great storyteller and he has
01:52:34 ◼ ► so much detail about everything everything in his head and he was just a god he just opened himself up
01:52:43 ◼ ► to questions day or night technical things well what exactly happened with the apple three why did it
01:52:49 ◼ ► overheat or everyone keeps talking about the bub campus what's the bub camp you know he would make maps for
01:52:55 ◼ ► me he would do diagrams the guy the the book opens by the way as you know with a two-page right inside
01:53:03 ◼ ► the cover two-page color full bleed map of cupertino and what's astonishing talk about through lines this
01:53:12 ◼ ► company in 50 years has not moved more than two miles yeah from its very first office it's it's really
01:53:20 ◼ ► amazing but that was because i kept asking uh chris espinosa like where was the city center building
01:53:27 ◼ ► and so finally he just took a screenshot of apple maps and with his stylus or his finger he just put
01:53:33 ◼ ► arrows and i thought that should be a nice version of that in the book but anyway he is the one when i
01:53:39 ◼ ► interviewed him on the record who who made this point and he rattled off all these great developments that
01:53:46 ◼ ► happened during the dark times i mean yeah they lost a ton of great talent yeah and the market share sank
01:53:52 ◼ ► and they got into this ludicrous business of making a different set of max for each retailer right like
01:54:01 ◼ ► performa 61 15 cd was for sears yeah and the performa 475 b was for tart you know um and i mean it turned
01:54:10 ◼ ► turned into fiefdoms and infighting and and duplication at one point they had 12 different
01:54:16 ◼ ► ad campaigns going on some of which contradicted each other and of course i think my favorite story
01:54:21 ◼ ► in the entire book is the day two apple lawyers showed up in trademark court to sue each other
01:54:28 ◼ ► that is it is a good story but you're right like yeah it just the context collapse always surprises
01:54:37 ◼ ► me that but they were in bed look i started at mac user in 1993 i want to say and like it was starting
01:54:48 ◼ ► to spin out of control um the newton was introduced that fall scully was fired you know the next year
01:54:55 ◼ ► um it was starting to spin out but like the reason i was there is because i fell in love with the mac
01:55:01 ◼ ► mac in 1990 1989 so there was a good era but yeah it did decay and i think that went into steve jobs
01:55:10 ◼ ► is thinking about like how do i prevent that from happening again um and i get that but also i'm struck
01:55:16 ◼ ► by when steve came back he said he expected it to just be all bozos and he found that there were a lot
01:55:24 ◼ ► of people this is why my site is called six colors he said i found a lot of people still bleed six colors
01:55:28 ◼ ► here it turns out um and they believe in apple um and he was so so they didn't like they let a lot of
01:55:37 ◼ ► people go and they made a lot of changes but i think it's also unfair to say that apple had completely
01:55:42 ◼ ► fallen apart and steve and his next people came in and just threw everything over there were a lot of
01:55:47 ◼ ► people there who got what apple was even johnny ive right who got what apple was but were trapped in this
01:55:53 ◼ ► in this dysfunctional company that needed new new leadership and and and they got it but like i didn't
01:56:00 ◼ ► expect to come out of this defending the scully era at all but your book points out like the power book
01:56:05 ◼ ► that i that everybody fell in love with that's not a steve jobs product at all no in fact so that that's um
01:56:14 ◼ ► the the power book story is is a great one because um it indicates a brilliant breakthrough that could
01:56:21 ◼ ► not occur today so i i found this guy john krakauer who was not a designer he was a systems integrator his
01:56:29 ◼ ► job was to fit the different components onto the circuit board right and he worked on the mac portable
01:56:34 ◼ ► the 16 pound disaster of a first i got one back here yeah yeah oh really it is a disaster
01:56:40 ◼ ► and he was on a press tour in new york and it was getting terrible reviews and he was really bummed
01:56:47 ◼ ► because he worked so hard on it and they had these tag board brochures like nine by twelve color brochures
01:56:54 ◼ ► for the portable with a photograph almost life-size of the portable and he took a pair of scissors and he cut
01:57:02 ◼ ► apart the components the keyboard the track ball the screen and he started rearranging them and he's
01:57:08 ◼ ► like dude if you pushed the keyboard away from the front lip of the laptop which all laptops were at the
01:57:16 ◼ ► time why because people were used to typewriters the original laptops were meant to resemble typewriters
01:57:22 ◼ ► with the keys right up front if we push that up against the screen a you get palm rest space b you
01:57:29 ◼ ► can put the track pad in the middle of the palm rest where your thumbs can be on them even while
01:57:33 ◼ ► you're typing c now you can move the the stuff that used to be up against the screen inside the hard
01:57:40 ◼ ► drive the the battery this the heavy stuff you can move that to the front edge under your palms which
01:57:46 ◼ ► changes the center of gravity so that when it's on your knees and you're typing it doesn't want to flip
01:57:50 ◼ ► off exactly so he when he got back to apple he built a mock-up of this it had no guts it was wired to a
01:57:59 ◼ ► to a actual macintosh off off camera and he had 45 different friends come in after hours when apple was
01:58:06 ◼ ► dark and the lights were out and everyone had gone home he'd sneak them in to do impromptu test sessions
01:58:12 ◼ ► to see how big should the track ball be where should the enter key be and so on and finally
01:58:17 ◼ ► he presented this to robert bruner who is the the predecessor of johnny ive everybody thought it looked
01:58:24 ◼ ► really weird because they were used to what laptops looked like at the time and a lot of the executives
01:58:29 ◼ ► were like oh god that's that's awful but bruner immediately got it and he's like this is going to be our new laptop
01:58:35 ◼ ► one guy working by himself not just unauthorized in secret and he said that would never happen today
01:58:44 ◼ ► because of security and badges and cameras and like the designers do the design now but that's also the
01:58:51 ◼ ► through line of the people and having brilliant people and it's not just like steve jobs came up
01:58:56 ◼ ► with an idea you get you get brilliant people who get what apple is about and think like what apple would
01:59:02 ◼ ► do and that's what happened there right is he's obviously emulating apple's sense in his mind in
01:59:06 ◼ ► that moment and and i do think i mean you say that would never happen now i do think having things emerge
01:59:14 ◼ ► from technical people is an important part of the process so there needs to be that's some would argue
01:59:19 ◼ ► that one of the issues that apple has had recently with design stuff is that they became a little too
01:59:23 ◼ ► disconnected from the reality of the other part of banking a product and that good designers maybe
01:59:29 ◼ ► wouldn't do that but you could you can risk becoming disconnected and listening to somebody who
01:59:34 ◼ ► understands how this stuff goes together is maybe a good idea um not not not with to the exception of
01:59:43 ◼ ► everything else but but that's a great example that's a great story um i say in my review that
01:59:50 ◼ ► the sweet spot in your book is i mean it's in the middle it's the iphone and the ipod a little bit
01:59:55 ◼ ► especially the iphone because i feel like the beauty of that not only is it incredibly important
01:59:59 ◼ ► i think historically but the beauty of that is it's enough people are willing to tell stories about
02:00:06 ◼ ► the iphone now and it's and it's not as as heavily trodden as some of the books that were written about
02:00:13 ◼ ► the early days of the mac it is it is right in that moment where you've got some people at apple and people
02:00:18 ◼ ► who've recently left apple and you can tell those stories and the one that i pulled out that was my
02:00:23 ◼ ► favorite is about the keyboard and obviously kink ashenda wrote a whole book about it but like you
02:00:28 ◼ ► have the receipts of these terrible keyboard designs that if people think that the iphone keyboard is bad
02:00:34 ◼ ► now you should have seen what they tried first but jobs is like we got to do a software keyboard we
02:00:41 ◼ ► cannot have a blackberry for this and and and put it on all of these smart people to try and figure
02:00:46 ◼ ► it out and in your book you get to see all the tries that did not go so well it's just i i laughed so
02:00:52 ◼ ► hard when i read that line in your review it's like i think you called it horrifying i mean like it's a
02:00:59 ◼ ► key but it's got many letters on it and you're just supposed to figure it out just and and i mean
02:01:04 ◼ ► part of the mystery of apple and i think steve jobs really liked the black box and the mystery of it but
02:01:09 ◼ ► i think part of the brilliance of it is seeing that really smart people had to work really hard to try
02:01:13 ◼ ► to figure this out and it didn't just magically appear steve loved the magic appearance but like
02:01:19 ◼ ► in reality they had those knock down drag out arguments and a bunch of bake-offs and a bunch of
02:01:24 ◼ ► all of this stuff about something that like if they didn't get that keyboard right the whole product
02:01:29 ◼ ► really would have failed and and you detail like they did not get it right for a long time
02:01:35 ◼ ► no they didn't i mean i can see some of those designs working one of those key one of those
02:01:40 ◼ ► layouts proposed had only six keys yeah and each key was a triangle and there's a key a letter at the
02:01:47 ◼ ► top and let now hear me out yeah yeah i get it a letter at each corner and you would just swipe your
02:01:54 ◼ ► finger in the direction of the of the letter that you wanted or or if you just hit it dead center you'd get
02:01:59 ◼ ► the top letter i mean i could see p like like remember what what people learn to do with flip
02:02:04 ◼ ► phones right they learned that t9 system oh yeah i i still remember uh palm graffiti symbols oh yeah
02:02:10 ◼ ► where you had to you could write but you had to write weird shapes that were like kind of like part of
02:02:15 ◼ ► the letter but that was pretty successful i mean people dug it yes i i i agree some of those that look
02:02:22 ◼ ► terrible might have actually been fine but i think it's really interesting that where we got to
02:02:26 ◼ ► it was a it's a really it's interesting to think so the the keys with lots of letters on them the idea
02:02:32 ◼ ► there was that it would they would function like our current iphone keyboard does in the sense that
02:02:36 ◼ ► you would just type and as you typed it would figure out what word you almost certainly meant
02:02:41 ◼ ► but there there was a moment where there was a leap where it's like well if we do why don't we just
02:02:46 ◼ ► do a keyboard and underneath do that auto correct kind of thing and that was that was the the insight
02:02:52 ◼ ► of like let's make people feel comfortable with this as a keyboard but what's happening underneath is not
02:02:58 ◼ ► quite it's not a one-to-one because they're changing the sizes of the targets as they intuit what word
02:03:03 ◼ ► you're trying to spell which is and that was that was the brilliant yeah and kashenda like like break
02:03:08 ◼ ► like originally he had a dictionary in there so whatever word you would started you would type
02:03:14 ◼ ► um it would compare what you'd done against the dictionary and put the word in that fell apart
02:03:18 ◼ ► when it was an a word that wasn't in the dictionary like someone's last name right so that's eventually
02:03:23 ◼ ► they wound up with this idea that the keys are actually invisibly to you changing sizes so if i type
02:03:31 ◼ ► t-i-m you know the next net letter is not going to be a q right it's going to be an e for time right
02:03:37 ◼ ► or a b for timber so so the e and b keys invisibly to you get giant um and ken said ken told me that
02:03:45 ◼ ► uh it's not just one size like the probability determines the size of the key it's going to get
02:03:51 ◼ ► so it lets you be sloppy as you type and that's what we have today and that was that was a great
02:03:55 ◼ ► insight i have a couple more things before we go before i let you go um one of them i i jumped over
02:04:00 ◼ ► the ipod but i want to come back to the ipod and i meant i mentioned this this is one of those
02:04:04 ◼ ► they're like we need an anecdote in there in the review what's a good anecdote and i said it's got
02:04:11 ◼ ► to be when they go to japan for like a goodwill tour i mean it's it's really not important at all
02:04:18 ◼ ► and they and they get to it's is it toshiba and and toshiba the toshiba executive says oh well i've got
02:04:29 ◼ ► you here i made we made this little hard drive and we don't know what to do with it nobody wants it
02:04:35 ◼ ► and i mean i'm sure it was a little more than this but like in the movie in my head john rubenstein
02:04:43 ◼ ► and jeff williams right look at each other and are like we'll we'll buy them all we'll lock you up for
02:04:50 ◼ ► as many as you can make and you said it's a hard drive the size of an oreo um which is such a great
02:04:55 ◼ ► that's what i quote i'm like that is so good but like that's the ipod they literally saw this hard
02:04:59 ◼ ► drive and said we can do something with this and then went back to cupertino and said music player
02:05:04 ◼ ► out of this thing a thousand songs in your pocket and in months they made the ipod but what a what an
02:05:11 ◼ ► example of just not only being ready to spring in a moment like that and think about what you might do
02:05:17 ◼ ► but just luck at the same time too that that the the hard drive maker had made this amazing thing and
02:05:23 ◼ ► it's like won't somebody in industry please apply our technology to something because we can make it
02:05:31 ◼ ► but we don't know what it's for and apple said we'll buy them all we want them all but see this is the
02:05:36 ◼ ► thing even in the comments of of i i did a story this this sunday march 8th uh for cbs sunday morning
02:05:43 ◼ ► about apple's first 50 years and the comments in the youtube were all like steve jobs wasn't an engineer
02:05:50 ◼ ► he just coasted on the back of better people like you are missing the importance of steve jobs's taste
02:05:58 ◼ ► no he didn't invent any of this stuff no they weren't his ideas but what he was was this unbelievable
02:06:05 ◼ ► taste maker he knew right away if this thing had potential he knew right away how it could be made better
02:06:12 ◼ ► and that's a classic and i would argue that's just as important as being an engineer because
02:06:18 ◼ ► you gotta make a product in the end right you gotta make a product and that's always been the case
02:06:25 ◼ ► that was the era that was like peak wintel era and a new standard or or or thing would emerge from
02:06:32 ◼ ► a from a factory somewhere and what you would see is every pc would add it and no one knew what it was
02:06:37 ◼ ► for no one had any idea what it was for but we all had to add it because it's the new thing and we can
02:06:42 ◼ ► sell new computers with this new whatever it is and and apple would be like no and then like three and
02:06:49 ◼ ► people write articles like why is apple not ahead on the widget b revolution widget b is new why do
02:06:57 ◼ ► they not do it and then three years later apple's like hey we got widget b now and we're doing this
02:07:01 ◼ ► thing and everybody's like oh you could use it for that great and then they would pick it up and that
02:07:06 ◼ ► was always their game it's like they were thinking product like what user need does this serve in a way
02:07:13 ◼ ► that a lot of the tech industry just completely lost the plot about they they were just like about
02:07:18 ◼ ► integrating new technology in and then whatever and that's apple to me yeah that's right i mean it's
02:07:25 ◼ ► that that jobs thing about you say no to a thousand things before say before you say yes to one thing
02:07:31 ◼ ► and if that hard drive comes across your desk you're like this is interesting right yeah we'll buy them
02:07:38 ◼ ► that's right and and the um and it was it was rubenstein who said we're gonna do a new version
02:07:45 ◼ ► every year um which they maintain to this day with the iphones and everything um which was brutal
02:07:53 ◼ ► on the employees i mean the to this day they're thinking two years out for what the next thing is going to be
02:08:06 ◼ ► that sony the master of consumer audio the walkman and all that was gonna have their version that
02:08:14 ◼ ► christmas and they that then the ride would be over but sony did not come out with one that christmas
02:08:20 ◼ ► or the next christmas or the next christmas yeah and then the fourth christmas they came up with an mp3
02:08:26 ◼ ► player that could not play mp3s only it only did like their weird drm that's right and so apple like
02:08:34 ◼ ► got away with murder because of because of sony's incompetence yeah and and just one more thought on
02:08:40 ◼ ► on jobs is sitting around the corner the most amazing thing to me was they were selling for the first time
02:08:47 ◼ ► in apple history hundreds of millions of something and it was the ipod mini it was that little one
02:08:54 ◼ ► everybody loved that thing it came in colors and up came this idea for the next version which would be
02:09:01 ◼ ► the ipod nano it would be thinner and flatter but it wouldn't hold as much it would cost the same but it
02:09:08 ◼ ► wouldn't hold as much and jobs told his team we're going to kill the mini and put all our chips on the
02:09:15 ◼ ► nano it was insane no executive should kill your most popular product at the peak of its popularity
02:09:23 ◼ ► hundreds of millions and he's going to cancel it for the sake of a completely untried thing with
02:09:30 ◼ ► worse specs and he had his way they shut down the mini and the nano multiplied its success tenfold it
02:09:41 ◼ ► became an even bigger like how does he know that's the definitive business school case you know is that
02:09:49 ◼ ► story about you know just leave leave the old product behind go to the new but you're right nobody else would
02:09:55 ◼ ► make that decision i tim cook wouldn't make that decision i would argue right like tim cook is big
02:09:59 ◼ ► and keeping the old things around at a lower price but he knew also like you went from a spinning hard
02:10:04 ◼ ► drive to flash memory there so even though it was worse it didn't you didn't risk when you're running
02:10:09 ◼ ► right that was a big issue is they could buffer a little bit there are technical reasons to do it and
02:10:14 ◼ ► also you could fit it in a jeans pocket the little tiny the little tiny jeans pocket and that little
02:10:18 ◼ ► coin pocket i'm sure he loved i think that's i'm sure that was a directive is it needs to fit in this
02:10:23 ◼ ► pocket okay um wrapping up you've you've spent a enormous amount of brain power surveying 50 years
02:10:30 ◼ ► of apple and talking to all these people including some amazing interviews with people who are no
02:10:35 ◼ ► longer with us as you said my friend you you posted that that you like you've interviewed bill atkinson
02:10:39 ◼ ► before he passed for the project and and that several people had died since you interviewed them
02:10:43 ◼ ► which led my friend randy who i went to college with to to say to you on twitter or blue sky what did
02:10:49 ◼ ► you say to them why did you how did you kill them amazing what did i say that made them die yeah
02:10:56 ◼ ► right like this shocking pogue statement that killed apple veterans uh so having having had that you've got
02:11:04 ◼ ► the historical perspective probably in your mind more than you ever have before what does it make you
02:11:09 ◼ ► think about where apple is and where it's going man it's it's a tough call clearly they don't do
02:11:15 ◼ ► a new revolutionary platform every three years like like the golden years of jobs and ive so that's the
02:11:22 ◼ ► typical you know the typical critique is they you know tim cook is all about money he just you know it's
02:11:29 ◼ ► all about services with 75 profit margin and i miss the old days i miss the old days too it was exciting
02:11:36 ◼ ► but remember it also came out during a critical uh conflagration of two forces there was miniaturization
02:11:45 ◼ ► coming from asian components you know processor power was going up and the wave of people who felt
02:11:53 ◼ ► intimidated by technology that it that began when computers came along has had ebbed so young people
02:12:00 ◼ ► were coming along and they were comfortable with technology for the first time and so that made possible the
02:12:04 ◼ ► ipad the imac the iphone i'm i'm not sure that there is still low-hanging fruit like that to be plucked
02:12:13 ◼ ► no other company has come up since steve jobs died with something like that i mean maybe that that era is
02:12:20 ◼ ► over and that we shouldn't blame tim cook because nobody could do it of course there's a parallel universe
02:12:26 ◼ ► where steve jobs is still alive and he kept up that pace of of new invention we'll we'll never know
02:12:32 ◼ ► but there are two different ways of looking at it you know it it's it's perfectly plausible that the
02:12:37 ◼ ► world is moving into software and services which is exactly what tim cook has done and he's quadrupled
02:12:43 ◼ ► the earnings and the stock and the revenue yeah that's what that's what people don't know is and i say
02:12:49 ◼ ► this um especially as we think about like tim cook's long tenure now as ceo the company he took over was so
02:12:55 ◼ ► much smaller the the company that steve jobs operated was so much smaller in revenue in the number of
02:13:01 ◼ ► products that they're selling and yeah there is a is it that tim cook said aha i will flip all these
02:13:06 ◼ ► switches and make our company enormous probably not right like instead it was more he is i think the
02:13:12 ◼ ► right person for that time because he's the operations guy but ultimately what he took over was a company that was
02:13:18 ◼ ► poised to grow at a massive rate and how do you deal with that and and and you know he has managed
02:13:25 ◼ ► them through it but but that is the question is like do it seems unlikely that they're going to keep
02:13:31 ◼ ► growing at anything resembling that rate so what is the next move and how will they react to to what ai
02:13:37 ◼ ► does in terms of distorting how we use devices like not not necessarily replacing them but changing
02:13:43 ◼ ► them and how do you respond to that and and whether that's tim cook or a future ceo it is interesting to
02:13:49 ◼ ► think about that i i would imagine the through lines that you've identified are going to be a touchstone
02:13:55 ◼ ► for them of like these are you know apple apple seems to want to be apple period right they want to be
02:14:03 ◼ ► apple and do they don't ask what steve jobs would do they ask what apple would do right yeah i agree
02:14:10 ◼ ► and and i think a big question hovering over this conversation is the ai question obviously
02:14:16 ◼ ► they're way late but as i said in the book people forget apple does not like to release products
02:14:24 ◼ ► that sort of work like like would we really be happy with something that is as accurate as chat gpt
02:14:31 ◼ ► meaning 80 of the time it's right um we don't know supposedly soon they're going to unveil this new
02:14:39 ◼ ► ai based siri that knows about your files and your messages and your email with complete privacy
02:14:45 ◼ ► i mean that demo in 2024 made me my hands clammy with desire work right where she says what time
02:14:52 ◼ ► do i need to pick up my mom and it knew that you meant her flight home for thanksgiving it knew what
02:14:58 ◼ ► flight it was from a text message it consulted with flight aware to look at the flight it consulted google
02:15:03 ◼ ► maps to see the traffic and just said 120 right that's the that's the product dream they just couldn't
02:15:08 ◼ ► build it and i think and i think what happened is that they got they felt so worried about being
02:15:12 ◼ ► behind that they that they promised things that they couldn't actually deliver but you could see
02:15:18 ◼ ► even in their failure that they were trying to deliver something that was the complete product that made
02:15:24 ◼ ► sense that fulfilled the consumer desire they just right the state of ai they they couldn't i mean
02:15:30 ◼ ► it sounds like even now that they've switched horses to gemini they still are not satisfied that it's
02:15:35 ◼ ► good enough and that's i think that's really interesting yeah but but the point i was going
02:15:40 ◼ ► for is that that could be the next post services post right cook cook thing if if you had ai that really
02:15:48 ◼ ► worked i mean it could be in the it could be like the movie her it could be like in your earpiece
02:15:53 ◼ ► it could be it could be in your watch it could be independent whatever um and and the other point i was trying
02:15:59 ◼ ► to make in the book that has totally crept up on people is that apple has become a medical device
02:16:04 ◼ ► company right in i mean this thing on your wrist can now detect diseases in your brain and your heart
02:16:10 ◼ ► and your lungs like how does it do that that is such advanced technology detecting sleep apnea high blood
02:16:16 ◼ ► pressure um i i i there's a rumor there it'll be detecting snoring soon like buzz you awake that's
02:16:23 ◼ ► really smart but they've been working on glucose monitoring right 15 years if they can master that
02:16:35 ◼ ► yeah yeah i'm sure that they're thinking about all of that in through that lens right it is through
02:16:40 ◼ ► that lens of how do we take technology and make it something that people will find useful um that
02:16:44 ◼ ► comes from steve jobs and now comes from apple university and is in their culture david it was
02:16:49 ◼ ► great to catch up with you and so great to read your book i did read it as an assignment but it didn't feel
02:16:55 ◼ ► like homework i swear it was a lot of fun and um and and you covered like i said i love that there's
02:17:01 ◼ ► a biography of apple and and i i'll say this this is the highest compliment i think i can pay you which is
02:17:06 ◼ ► as i was reading the book i thought to myself this is the definitive book about apple like there are
02:17:12 ◼ ► lots of books about apple but and i could feel you writing like you you were sweating the details and some
02:17:18 ◼ ► of those things where you could have said you know there's a whole book about this and you did not
02:17:23 ◼ ► because you wanted your book to be the one people could point to and say is there a definitive history
02:17:27 ◼ ► of apple and you know yeah there are hundreds of books about apple but if you have to point to
02:17:31 ◼ ► at one i think this is it and and good for you for putting in all of that lots of leg work i could
02:17:38 ◼ ► see it as a writer i'm like oh my god he did so much work to make this book happen but it does let me
02:17:45 ◼ ► point at it and say this is the one if you want to know about the history of apple this is it and maybe
02:17:49 ◼ ► like my review says maybe in 20 years we'll get some good you know dirt on some of the things that
02:17:55 ◼ ► have happened the last 15 but you know for now like this is the one that i tell you if you want
02:18:00 ◼ ► to know the history of apple there's you know you got it here the whole sweep of it 50 years so so
02:18:05 ◼ ► thank you for writing it if you say so editor then uh it was all worth it that's right now give me 1200
02:18:20 ◼ ► i'm so happy that we had david on the show obviously the apple at 50 book i think is actually
02:18:28 ◼ ► quite an important part of the overall thing that we've got going on right now right like it's
02:18:34 ◼ ► a definitive story um and you know we mentioned this on the show before like the unprecedented access
02:18:40 ◼ ► that he got is clearly an important thing here so i'm really happy that as part of and beginning
02:18:44 ◼ ► really our coverage we got to have david on the show so thank you to you for setting that up jason
02:18:49 ◼ ► and for doing the the interview yeah absolutely i uh you know i i didn't expect david poke to be
02:18:54 ◼ ► one of the first people to drop a an f-bomb on upgrade but that's what happens that's just how
02:19:01 ◼ ► it happens it happens it's gonna happen so i think that's it for this week's episode bumper
02:19:07 ◼ ► episode uh i hope that you've enjoyed it if you like to send us in your questions your feedback
02:19:12 ◼ ► your follow-up if i've asked up your questions we'll try and get to some next week always go to
02:19:16 ◼ ► upgrade feedback.com i'd like to thank our members to support us of upgrade plus this week on upgrade
02:19:21 ◼ ► plus we're going to talk about jason's watch party for his episode of jeopardy and what it was like to
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