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00:00:00   There is in the show notes document, um, there is something that's pre-show colon. Casey has something that's about 60 seconds barring tangents. Now this is us, right? Well, no, I think Casey's talking about himself. He causes his own tangents in the middle of his own thought and that leads to a long digressions.

00:00:20   You know, that reminds me, no, I'm just kidding. Um, so I, I have to bring us to our favorite, our mutual, the three of us, our collective favorite corner, which is, uh, anniversary corner, because today as we record is March 11th of 2026.

00:00:35   Can you, I think we should, you should force us both to guess. Cause I have no idea what this is the anniversary of Marco. You have any idea?

00:00:40   Is it, I mean, it could be our show. We started at some time in the early part of the year, so it could be the show. I'm going to say the show.

00:00:48   I thought it was February.

00:00:49   Well, uh, neutral was January 11th or something like that. Maybe 17.

00:00:55   I'm going to go look it up, but I'm, I'm forcing myself not to, but I honestly have no idea what this is the anniversary of Casey. Please tell us.

00:01:00   All right. So, uh, I will put a link in the show notes. Uh, but this is a tweet from the 11th of March, 2013 from Casey Liss.

00:01:08   Listen to Marco Armand, Syracuse and I talk tech. If cars, isn't your thing, the accidental tech podcast at ATP.FM.

00:01:15   So we are 13 years in as of today, gentlemen, look at us.

00:01:20   Very nice. That was the publication of episode one.

00:01:22   I believe that's right. I'd have to look. I think that's right. Yeah. Hold on. We have really good URLs, so it won't be too long.

00:01:29   Yes, we do.

00:01:30   Oh, but that was, no, it wasn't episode one.

00:01:31   No, see, look, I was right.

00:01:33   Yeah, you were right.

00:01:34   February 7th.

00:01:35   All right. My bad. So, but that was, it was an easy URL. It was atp.fm slash one. You never double checked it.

00:01:42   Well, no, because if you recall, the first few were actually on SoundCloud or something like that.

00:01:48   Yeah, we didn't have our own website yet.

00:01:49   And we didn't have our own website.

00:01:51   Yeah, check out my SoundCloud. We should have said that.

00:01:52   That's right. But anyway, episode four was released the 11th of March, 2013, and is a scant one hour, 18 minutes and 47 seconds.

00:02:02   Yeah, well, yeah. Episode one is 14 minutes.

00:02:07   Can you imagine?

00:02:07   Never did that again.

00:02:08   It was accidental.

00:02:09   I don't think we've done a pre-show in 14 minutes until maybe, maybe today.

00:02:15   This is the 60-second one with no tangents. We're going to do it.

00:02:17   You had talked last week about one of your post-breaking containment. I don't know if we would go so far as to say it went viral, but it certainly got some attention.

00:02:28   And Thomas Dixon was, I guess, the first person of many to point out, oh, people probably don't know that the Mac Pro exists and assumed you were talking about the MacBook Pro, which starts at $1,700.

00:02:39   And I think Thomas is right.

00:02:41   Yeah, this is my post that broke containment, being seen by an audience that has no context for me or my deal or anything.

00:02:48   And so when I posted about comparing the MacBook Neo's performance to the Mac Pro's performance in a single-threaded and the price of the two of them and yada, yada, people misinterpreted it in various ways.

00:03:00   And I got a lot of people correcting me on the price because I said that Neo is whatever, $600, and the Mac Pro is, what is it, $7,000 or something?

00:03:09   I don't know, whatever it was.

00:03:09   I looked up the prices.

00:03:10   I put them in there.

00:03:11   The prices were correct.

00:03:11   The product names were correct.

00:03:12   And people were like, oh, I'm sorry.

00:03:13   It's $1,700.

00:03:14   You got the price wrong.

00:03:16   And I thought most of them were confused because when I wrote MacBook Neo, they were reading MacBook Pro because $1,700 is the price of the MacBook Pro.

00:03:24   Lots of people wrote in telling me they thought people were confused, not that MacBook Neo was being misread as MacBook Pro, but rather that Mac Pro was being misread as MacBook Pro.

00:03:36   Because some people call the MacBook Pro the Mac Pro because I touch, you know, people will just, and it's no confusion for them because they have no idea that a computer called the Mac Pro exists.

00:03:46   So some people did confirm.

00:03:48   Some of the confused people, when I corrected them, did confirm.

00:03:50   They said, oh, I misread Mac Pro to be MacBook Pro.

00:03:53   I think some people also misread MacBook Neo to be MacBook Pro.

00:03:58   Anyway, misreadings go in both directions.

00:03:59   But two people did say specifically that they read Mac Pro and thought I meant MacBook Pro.

00:04:06   And I think I have heard people in real life say, oh, I don't have a Mac Air or I don't have a MacBook Air or whatever.

00:04:13   I have a Mac Pro.

00:04:14   And they mean MacBook Pro.

00:04:16   I have definitely heard people say that.

00:04:17   Yeah.

00:04:18   And a couple of people pointed out that one thing that certainly doesn't help, even for people who are kind of into Apple, is that at this point, Apple stores just do not have the Mac Pro at all anymore, like on display.

00:04:28   So you would never encounter one.

00:04:29   Yeah, that's true.

00:04:30   I mean, I think if you showed most people a picture of the current Mac Pro, they would be like, what is that?

00:04:35   Like, they wouldn't recognize it.

00:04:36   Space Eater, yeah.

00:04:37   All right.

00:04:38   And then with regard to the MacBook Neo, we have a bunch of follow-up, of course.

00:04:41   John, you had some thoughts about color and whatnot.

00:04:43   Can you tell me about that, please?

00:04:44   Yeah.

00:04:45   I had lots of discussions on other podcasts and YouTube channels and stuff about the colors, about, you know, that people were happy that you could see the colors on, like, on the MacBook Air.

00:04:53   It was clear which one you got.

00:04:56   But some people wanted them to be sort of more saturated, more forceful, and a lot of the discussion centered around the things that Apple has rumored to have said or whatever they're like.

00:05:05   Maybe they tested it, and when the colors are really bold, that it just gets tiring to look at that all the time.

00:05:12   And I get where people are coming from, and I get the idea that, you know, maybe you might think you want, like, a bright red laptop, but after a while, it'll become wearing on you.

00:05:24   But I never heard anyone mention this, and it's my immediate thought when I saw these, and I understand why they didn't do it, which I'll get to in a second.

00:05:30   Apple has done this with the iMac, where they use bold, saturated colors on the back, but on the front, in the chin, where you can see it, decidedly more muted.

00:05:43   So they went with extremely bold, saturated colors in the iMac, so it's great, and product shots look great from behind.

00:05:48   But if Apple is concerned that staring at a bright red or bright green or whatever thing is going to wear on your eyes, don't worry.

00:05:54   When you're looking at the front of your iMac, you don't see that saturated red or green or whatever.

00:05:59   Well, with a laptop, you could make the thing bold and saturated on the top and bottom.

00:06:05   Oh, but then when you open it up inside, it would be more muted.

00:06:08   Now, one of the reasons they probably didn't do that is that would be more expensive to do, like, two different anodizations on a single solid chassis.

00:06:15   So I kind of understand why they don't do that on their cheapest laptop.

00:06:17   But for future reference, Apple, on perhaps a more expensive laptop, if you ever do decide to do colors, make it as bold and as red or as green or as yellow as you want on the outside.

00:06:28   And then when you open it up, have it be a more muted color so it's not screaming in our face.

00:06:32   That's my idea.

00:06:32   Yeah.

00:06:33   I appreciate it.

00:06:34   All right.

00:06:35   Pierre-Luc Agnier writes, I'm so sorry, Pierre-Luc.

00:06:38   And there were others that said the same thing, but here we are.

00:06:41   The M1 MacBook Air deal at Walmart has always been U.S. only.

00:06:45   Even in Canada, where we have Walmart, we never got that deal.

00:06:49   So it's huge that the Nioh is hitting worldwide.

00:06:51   That's a really good point that because we're Americans and tend to think only about America, I don't think any of the three of us considered.

00:06:56   Yeah.

00:06:57   The rest of the world is real excited about the Nioh because we were comparing it to the M1 MacBook Air Walmart for 650, which is still a great deal, especially if you like that design.

00:07:05   Because as we noted in the last show, it comes to lots of stuff that the Nioh doesn't.

00:07:09   But if you never had that deal because you don't have a Walmart, then the Nioh is great.

00:07:13   Finally, you get access to an inexpensive Apple laptop as well.

00:07:16   Yeah.

00:07:16   And this could really help open it up to a lot more markets.

00:07:19   I mean, in a lot of different countries around the world, the idea of spending, even for the base model MacBook Air all these years, which is always like around $1,000, maybe $900 through certain channels are on sale.

00:07:35   You know, maybe at the absolute lowest, maybe you'd see something for like $8,000 or $8,500.

00:07:39   In a lot of places, either that amount of money directly or what the price ends up being after all the, you know, import duties and taxes and everything.

00:07:50   It was just out of reach for a lot of people in a lot of countries.

00:07:53   And so this will open and, you know, by cutting it roughly in half, this will open up a lot more customers to Macs that were just that they were just inaccessible before.

00:08:05   That's a really big deal as the Nioh reviews have come out and more people are doing analysis and more people are chiming in with their thoughts and their opinions and, you know, what's going on in different markets.

00:08:16   The more we hear about it, the more I think this is a really big deal.

00:08:21   And, you know, the reviews, which we'll go through, we'll bear this out.

00:08:24   But like, this is a big deal because it expands the market a lot for the Mac.

00:08:30   And as Mac fans and Mac users, that's only good news for the platform.

00:08:35   So this is, you know, we'll keep going.

00:08:38   But so far, MacBook Neo seems like a home run.

00:08:42   I mean, not to get ahead of ourselves, but can you imagine if the iPhone company suddenly became the iPhone and Mac company again?

00:08:49   Like, that would be amazing.

00:08:51   Let's not go crazy.

00:08:52   I know, I know, I know.

00:08:53   But still, it would be cool.

00:08:54   But think about it.

00:08:54   Like, there's nothing else they could have done in the modern market.

00:08:58   No other change they could have made to significantly boost the market share of the Mac from where it already was.

00:09:06   Like, they already cover the high end pretty well.

00:09:10   I know, John.

00:09:10   But, you know, they already cover the high end.

00:09:12   It's not going to expand the market.

00:09:13   Yeah, exactly.

00:09:14   Like, high end customers, high budget customers are covered very well by the Mac.

00:09:19   And the Mac does well among those groups.

00:09:22   You know, where Apple had never really served very well is low cost.

00:09:25   And they still, you know, low cost is relative.

00:09:29   You know, what we mean as low cost as privileged people in the U.S. is very different from what many places around the world and what many markets need for their low cost.

00:09:39   But all that being said, Apple has never really served low cost that well.

00:09:43   But with this, they're going way further into it than they were before.

00:09:48   And that's huge.

00:09:51   And if anything, you know, I think Apple's marketing angle of like, look at what PC laptops give you for similar prices.

00:09:59   That's a smart play because when you look at what PC laptops give you for similar prices, it's not good.

00:10:07   And, you know, certainly Chromebooks and other PC laptops are available for less, but not that much less.

00:10:15   And they're not that usable.

00:10:16   So this, again, like nothing else they could have done could have expanded the market the way this did.

00:10:22   But by roughly cutting the price in half by going to, you know, a $600 entry price, that's really good.

00:10:30   And I think when you compare the NIO to other things in that price range, it's going to compare really well for a lot of people's needs.

00:10:40   Very much so.

00:10:41   Going back to Pierre, does the NIO run Rosetta 2?

00:10:44   There were all these statements that the M chips provided silicon that simplified the job of Rosetta.

00:10:49   Is that silicon in an A-class chip?

00:10:51   I don't have any idea.

00:10:52   But we're going to talk about this among other things in overtime this week as it turns out.

00:10:56   But, John, what's the answer here?

00:10:58   Yeah, I'm pretty sure that, you know, I remember that when Apple was talking about that, like with the M1, that it had stuff that the phone chips don't.

00:11:04   But we're a long way from the M1.

00:11:05   And, you know, they really beat things up.

00:11:08   So whatever thing might have been missing.

00:11:09   I talked about last episode that, like, it's kind of clear that Apple didn't build the A18 Pro with the Mac in mind based on how difficult it was to add a second really slow USB port.

00:11:20   It's clear that Apple wanted to add a USB port, but it had, you know, it had limited options.

00:11:24   It needed a cheap chip.

00:11:26   The A18 Pro was the chip.

00:11:27   It didn't support two USB.

00:11:28   They could have just included one.

00:11:30   It would have been like, well, we always only wanted one.

00:11:32   This was actually made for Mac.

00:11:33   But it wasn't.

00:11:33   They wanted two, and they had to hack it in.

00:11:35   So it's clear that the A-chips, at least the A18 Pro anyway, are not ideal for the Mac in terms of the, you know, peripherals and stuff.

00:11:43   But I'm betting whatever things that it needed for Rosetta are there.

00:11:46   I haven't seen anyone say, oh, and by the way, the MacBook Neo doesn't run Intel apps.

00:11:50   And, yeah, we'll talk more about this on Overtime.

00:11:51   So I'm going to assume that it does, and whatever it needs to have for it, it has.

00:11:55   I wonder if it doesn't support virtualization at the hardware level.

00:11:58   That would be a question.

00:11:59   But I think if it didn't, we would have heard about it by now.

00:12:01   Well, yeah.

00:12:02   It'll be interesting to see when people start stress testing these things.

00:12:06   But the thing is, like, all those differences between the M and A were emphasized when the M first appeared.

00:12:11   But we've had so many A's since then, I feel like most things have trickled down, except for stuff that is really of no use to the phone.

00:12:18   Because, you know, two USB ports on the phone is not a useful thing.

00:12:21   And that's where the Neo got hamstrung.

00:12:24   But all the other stuff, I think, probably is useful.

00:12:26   Whatever things are needed for Rosetta and so on.

00:12:28   Actually, you know what?

00:12:29   Remember, we heard back when we were first discussing the rumors of what became CarPlay Ultra, we had heard that the way that was implemented was basically a virtualization layer on the phone that ran the, like, gauge cluster version of CarPlay in, like, a virtualized real-time OS.

00:12:53   And then the rest of the iOS platform ran on its slice of whatever.

00:12:58   I don't think we ever got good confirmation on that.

00:13:00   But if that was true, then recent iPhones would have had to support hardware virtualization on the processor.

00:13:07   And, you know, assuming that was all true.

00:13:10   But anyway, even if that's not true, if that was, like, the direction they might have gone or a direction they were experimenting with, they would have added that support if it wasn't already there.

00:13:19   So it is probably there.

00:13:21   And I'm assuming this stuff that Rosetta needs is, like, you know, some instructions that make certain things faster or whatever.

00:13:26   And as the ARM instruction set version has crept up since the M1, you know.

00:13:31   Anyway, we'll find out if someone gets these in their hands or someone discovers, I tried to run an Intel app on my MacBook Neo and it didn't run at all.

00:13:37   But, yeah, anyway, see you over time.

00:13:39   I'll talk more about this.

00:13:40   I would bet that if it is supported, I bet most Intel apps run faster on the Neo than they did on the last Intel Macs.

00:13:50   Yeah, that's always, that's the way it's been on Rosetta for a while.

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00:15:59   Andrew Larson writes,

00:16:04   The keyboard case for the iPad Air, and I think also for the regular iPad, has a moving trackpad and no backlight, just like the MacBook Neo.

00:16:09   The keyboard case for the iPad Pro has a haptic trackpad and backlit keyboard.

00:16:13   Actually, that's not 100% true.

00:16:15   I think it's 98% true.

00:16:17   My iPad Pro, which I'm using the original Magic Keyboard, the original cantilevered Magic Keyboard from way back when,

00:16:24   and I'm almost certain I've never bought a second one.

00:16:27   So, I had this from, you know, whenever it came out originally sometime during the pandemic.

00:16:31   That trackpad is not haptic.

00:16:34   I am 99% sure.

00:16:35   Now, the current ones, I think Andrew's right, the current ones are haptic.

00:16:39   But it's an interesting point that they're, maybe not literally, but kind of sort of recycling the iPad keyboards in trackpads for the...

00:16:46   I don't actually know if they're physically the same.

00:16:48   It's just pointing out that Apple, I think I had said in the last episode that Apple hadn't shipped a physical moving trackpad in a while.

00:16:53   But they have, just not on the Mac.

00:16:54   It had been on those iPad keyboards.

00:16:56   Yeah.

00:16:56   Jason Snell actually mentioned exactly this on Upgrade yesterday.

00:17:00   Pretty much the same parts from that first Magic Keyboard.

00:17:04   The Verge has a review, which is worth reading.

00:17:07   But among other things in their review, they talk about SSD speeds.

00:17:10   And, John, you've been kind enough to put a table in here for us, which is in our internal show notes.

00:17:15   The long and short of it is MacBook Neo, the 256-gig version anyway, will read and write 1.7 gigabits per second.

00:17:24   Gigabytes.

00:17:25   That's what I said.

00:17:26   Gigabytes per second.

00:17:27   The M1 MacBook Air with a half terabyte is 3.4 gigabytes per second.

00:17:33   The M5 MacBook Air with a one terabyte drive does double that.

00:17:38   So we're basically doubling each step.

00:17:39   Does double that at seven gigabytes per second.

00:17:42   And the M5 Max MacBook Pro with four terabytes will do 13.6 gigabytes per second.

00:17:47   So it's basically, maybe not literally, but effectively doubling each step of the way.

00:17:51   And this is getting to what I was asking last time.

00:17:53   It's like, okay, well, what are the SSD speeds going to be like?

00:17:55   Because people tend not to benchmark the quote-unquote SSD speeds on phones.

00:18:00   And this is a phone chip.

00:18:01   And it turns out it's about half the speed of the M1 MacBook Air, which is a shame and not ideal for a Mac.

00:18:06   But it's fine for the Neo.

00:18:07   But I think it's another place where the 18 Pro is not really designed for a Mac because the bandwidth we expect out of a Mac and the size of the SSDs and how much IO goes on and so on and so forth, the expectations are different on a Mac.

00:18:20   So I do wonder if that will change in the A19, A20, or whatever, you know, as the Neo evolves, I'm going to keep an eye on this because this is, you know, quite a regression in SSD speed from the Walmart M1 MacBook Air, which had twice as fast speeds.

00:18:35   And then also to note, I mean, we didn't make much of this when we talked about it, but like when the M5 MacBook Pro came out, the plain non-suffix M5 MacBook Pro came out a while ago, it was noted that the SSD speeds basically doubled because I guess they doubled the bus width or whatever they did.

00:18:51   Anyway, the M5 MacBook Air benefits from that as well, as does the M5 Max and M5 Pro MacBook Pro.

00:18:57   SSD speeds are just getting better and better.

00:19:00   So that's great.

00:19:01   Peter Puglio writes, with regard to John talking about the cost savings for the embossed Apple logo on the MacBook Neo and the more expensive inlaid alternative, Peter writes, I wonder if he was actually, if John was actually thinking about the iPhone 5 intro video where Johnny Ive explains how they used high-powered cameras to determine which glass cutouts best fit the inlay of the device body.

00:19:23   I did not remember this until I watched the video, and either Peter or John was kind enough to put a timestamp link in the show notes, which we will put in our show notes.

00:19:30   But yeah, I do remember this having seen it, and that is pretty bananas.

00:19:34   Yeah, that's the technology involved.

00:19:35   I swear I saw one for the Apple logos as well, but who knows, I could have been mixing it up with this.

00:19:40   But Jason has some more info on this topic.

00:19:43   So with regard to our dear friend Jason Snell over at Six Colors, he writes, the Apple logo on the top has changed too.

00:19:49   It's still a separate part, but made of anodized aluminum rather than polished steel with a slightly different color shade than the rest of the device's body.

00:19:56   So this answers the question I saw a lot of posts saying, oh, the MacBook Neo, it's not a separate piece.

00:20:01   It's just like carved into the surface, so it's just one big piece of aluminum.

00:20:04   They kind of carve out a recessed area of its Apple logo.

00:20:06   No, it's still a separate piece.

00:20:08   It's just not polished steel anymore.

00:20:10   It's aluminum.

00:20:10   I don't know if that saves any money because I was saying the embossed logo is a money-saving thing because it's cheaper to just carve a little apple shape in it than it is to, you know, have those computer-controlled cameras match up the parts and do the inlays.

00:20:21   No, they still did the inlay.

00:20:22   The only difference is it's not two different materials.

00:20:24   Maybe that makes it easier because they expand and contract at the same rate because they're both aluminum or something, but Apple going to Apple, they could not bear to not have their extremely precisely inlaid Apple logo.

00:20:36   Next time you're looking at the top of your laptop, when you're cleaning the fingerprint smudges off the shiny Apple logo on the back of your laptop, look how well it fits.

00:20:44   Look how well it fits in the aluminum.

00:20:46   Try to find like a place where it's like doesn't fit or there's a gap or something.

00:20:49   It's pretty amazing.

00:20:50   And I guess the Neos are just as amazing as just aluminum in both places.

00:20:53   Yeah, and speaking of that fingerprint magnet polished Apple logo on the other laptops, I wouldn't mind if that, you know, got a different finish in a future design because it's a fingerprint magnet and any little tiny scuff or scratch, you will see that there forever.

00:21:07   Something a little bit more brushed or textured like what they did on the Neo, I think that would be a welcome change for future redesigns.

00:21:15   Dave2D, the YouTuber, did a pretty good and relatively short review of the Neo, but among other things, Dave took off the back cover.

00:21:22   So we got a view of the back cover or what's under the back cover, I should say.

00:21:26   Additionally, Dave mentioned that the Neo takes up to 30 watts from a charger, although it only comes with a 20 watt charger in the box.

00:21:34   Whoopsie doopsies.

00:21:35   But under the back cover, you can see that there's a bunch of different like components, but it's not nearly as jam packed.

00:21:44   Well, maybe it's jam packed.

00:21:45   I don't know how to describe this, but it's not jam packed.

00:21:47   The battery, as we noted, is so much smaller.

00:21:50   It's like a third smaller than the MacBook Air.

00:21:52   So normally when you open these things up, it's like battery everywhere.

00:21:55   This has battery in the middle and then, of course, the trackpad in front of that.

00:22:00   But then to the left and the right of the trackpad, instead of there being more battery, there is...

00:22:05   Speakers!

00:22:06   Plastic space fillers, I'm going to say, because there's no way the speakers are filling all that space.

00:22:11   I wouldn't be so sure.

00:22:12   If you look at the design of modern iPads with good speakers, this is kind of similar to what they do, where they have like a big internal cavity that works as like a speaker, you know, sound channel.

00:22:25   So I think, obviously, like I think the priority here was, of course, it was cost.

00:22:30   And I'm sure one of the biggest reasons the battery does not fill the whole thing is cost.

00:22:35   So I think they had space and I think they chose to use that space of like, let's make good speaker acoustic channels in here.

00:22:44   So that is almost certainly what those are.

00:22:46   Or do the best they can with it.

00:22:47   We should open that up to see if like the speaker port is like...

00:22:50   I know there's lots of different ways you can make sort of a winding tube inside a speaker body to enhance space and stuff like that.

00:22:56   But this is excessive.

00:22:58   If you look at how the much better speakers in the MacBook Pros, how little space they take up.

00:23:03   And you're right that the iPad ones do take more space.

00:23:05   But like, I feel like that's the same issue, especially on the big iPads.

00:23:09   It's like, well, we've got the space.

00:23:10   We might as well use it for something.

00:23:12   But the point is, on all Apple's other laptops in recent years, every ounce of space is filled with battery.

00:23:18   But not on the Neo for cost-saving reasons.

00:23:20   You know, it has a smaller battery because it can get away with a smaller battery and still have comparable battery life.

00:23:25   And less battery costs less money.

00:23:28   That's what it comes down to.

00:23:29   I was looking at a teardown.

00:23:32   It wasn't the iFixit teardown.

00:23:33   I'll put a link in the show notes.

00:23:34   It was somebody I didn't recognize, but some Australian.

00:23:36   And they took apart the entire MacBook Neo.

00:23:40   Now, granted, they accelerated some parts.

00:23:42   Like, there were literally, I think, 15 screws or something like that around the battery.

00:23:46   But what was fascinating about this teardown was there was almost no adhesive anywhere in this thing.

00:23:52   It was pretty much all screws top to bottom, which is extremely unlike any other Apple product teardown I've ever seen, which is very cool.

00:24:00   So I'm really into that.

00:24:02   This person was concluding, this is likely the most repairable Apple laptop ever.

00:24:06   Oh, and speaking of the trackpad, the Day 2D video shows some of that as well, if you're wondering how it works.

00:24:11   Basically, there is a button underneath the trackpad, dead center.

00:24:16   And then there is a little pin in the trackpad that presses that button.

00:24:20   And that little pin or nubbin is attached to a sideways H-shaped piece of metal.

00:24:26   And so wherever you press on the trackpad, it presses down the entire metal H, which presses down the center thing, which presses the buttons in the center.

00:24:36   And then there's these two kind of leaf springs on the left and right in the spaces of the H to push the thing back up.

00:24:41   So he shows how it works.

00:24:42   Again, I don't know if that's also how it works on the iPad ones, but Jason says it is.

00:24:48   And Dave also tested the speakers.

00:24:50   If you look at the, what do you call it, frequency response lines, this shows the MacBook Pro versus the MacBook Air versus the Neo.

00:24:58   Suffice it to say that what you actually want to see here is essentially a straight line from left to right.

00:25:04   And the less it is straight, the worse it is.

00:25:08   And yeah, the Neo is not as good as the Air, which is significantly worse than the Pro.

00:25:12   So that's what you would expect for the price.

00:25:16   And then he also did battery tests, which I thought was interesting.

00:25:18   I'm not sure how he did them, but he divided it up into heavy load and light load.

00:25:22   And it demonstrates a few things.

00:25:23   Obviously, it demonstrates that the Neo does have less battery life than the MacBook Air, which has a battery that's one third bigger.

00:25:31   So that makes sense.

00:25:32   And then the MacBook Pro, this is the M5 Max version, gets worse battery life than the Air, which you would expect because of the bigger power demands.

00:25:43   And also you can see the thing that we've talked about in the past, where if you max out the max chip, it will use a huge amount of power and drain your battery very quickly.

00:25:54   So the heavy load time, the M5 Max gets the slowest heavy load time because it has the most machinery to use energy.

00:26:02   I think it can get like 70 watts or something when you go all out on it.

00:26:07   So, yeah, that really demonstrates, although it's kind of not a fair fight because what they're doing is we're going to run you under heavy load until you run out of battery power.

00:26:14   Whereas if you have a fixed workload, the M5 Max will use more power, but it will get it done more quickly, you know, and then be idle again, the race to sleep phenomenon.

00:26:23   So keep that in mind.

00:26:25   It doesn't mean that you will get worse battery life from your M5 Max than either the other computers doing a specific task.

00:26:30   But it does mean if you just run a benchmark and leave it running until the battery drains, it'll drain first on the M5 Max.

00:26:38   Also, before we leave the Neo, going back to the repairability angle and the design of the repairability, I think that is also like more important than ever for this type of price category.

00:26:51   Because when you have a less expensive product, you're going to sell it to, first of all, like kind of fleet users, you know, think like, you know, schools and stuff like that, that have a whole bunch of them.

00:27:01   And those need to be repairable oftentimes like, quote, in the field, like the school IT department sometimes does that themselves and they need to be able to make simple repairs.

00:27:12   And so that's, you know, that's important for that.

00:27:15   But then also when you look at different markets around the world that these are sold, there's a lot of places out there that rely on much like lower, like less equipped or lower cost repair networks.

00:27:29   So when you think about like if there's a country that doesn't have Apple stores or that doesn't have a lot of Apple stores or if you live many hours from one or, you know, you're relying on a network of third party repair shops or, you know, kind of more local options.

00:27:43   As a result of that, the simpler the product is to repair, you know, first of all, you know, you need the product to be cheaper usually to sell to a lot of those markets.

00:27:51   But then the simpler is to repair also over time that makes it more accessible to more people.

00:27:56   It makes it last longer for the people who need it and people, people who use it.

00:28:00   So all of that goes in like repair and cost go hand in hand.

00:28:04   And this is, again, like a huge step forward for making Macs more accessible to more places around the world.

00:28:12   That's a huge deal.

00:28:14   Yep, couldn't agree more.

00:28:15   For what it's worth, I did go to the Apple store earlier today in order to look at the Neo and the displays.

00:28:21   And I don't have that much to say about any of them, but I will say I did like the colors.

00:28:25   I don't love the color matched keyboards personally, but that's because I'm a bit of an old man.

00:28:32   But I like the colors.

00:28:34   I thought they looked really great for what it's worth.

00:28:35   See, I love that they matched the color, the keyboards to it because like that's, again, like when you're, when you look at like what brought us all to Apple in the first place, it was little delightful attention to detail kind of things like that.

00:28:49   And even if you don't like the, you know, the, the P color keyboard or whatever it is, like, you know, even if you don't like the colors they chose, I'm glad they did exactly that.

00:28:58   You know, that when apparently also like they, they pre-configure Mac OS by default to use the tint color of the, of the hardware, like of the case, like that's a great idea.

00:29:09   You know, little accents like that, that matters, that adds up.

00:29:13   And that's how you win over new people to like, oh, I'm so delighted by this Apple product.

00:29:17   You know, people who've never had a Mac before, if they go for this, all those little delights, they're going to be seeing those for the first time.

00:29:23   That's how you build loyalty and that's how you build a customer base.

00:29:26   And again, this is why we're all here is for stuff like that.

00:29:30   Little delights over time that at one point it was our first time seeing that.

00:29:34   And again, broadening the market.

00:29:36   It's such a nice thing that this is, this is a hit as far as I can tell.

00:29:39   Also, before we leave the, you know, the Neo too much here, I wanted to briefly mention, briefly comment on like, there's been a couple of videos out here and there.

00:29:48   Our friend Tyler Stallman did a great one about basically like pushing what the Neo can do.

00:29:55   You know, people often assume that low-end computers can't do, you know, some kind of perceived to be high-end task.

00:30:04   Whether that is stuff like software development, running Xcode.

00:30:07   The most common thing people always cite is video editing.

00:30:11   Then this has been a thing that we've been, we've been saying that, you know, oh, we, you need a, you know, insert high-end model here to do video editing.

00:30:21   But we've been saying that for a long time.

00:30:24   The Neo has approximately the performance of the M1 in many ways or better.

00:30:32   It's like M1 or better in most, in almost every performance metric.

00:30:36   But when the M1 came out, it, when it was the high-end chip, you know what people did on their computers?

00:30:45   They edited 4K video.

00:30:48   That was a common task that you would advertise the capability of doing on high-end computers of the time.

00:30:56   Edit 4K video.

00:30:58   So today, when the M1 is the low-end model, it didn't become less able to edit 4K video in the intervening time.

00:31:06   Also, you know what else edits 4K video all the time?

00:31:11   The iPhone.

00:31:13   Well, this is a chip from the iPhone.

00:31:15   From the good iPhone, too.

00:31:17   And iPhones have been shooting and editing 4K video for many years now.

00:31:23   So the iPhone processor can, of course, do that.

00:31:26   I think we often get lost in our perception of, like, what we need hardware-wise.

00:31:32   And, like, our kind of, you know, hardware-needs-Overton window shifts forward as hardware gets better.

00:31:38   We always look at the current product line and say, oh, well, we are professionals.

00:31:43   So we need the MacBook Pro.

00:31:45   We need the M-whatever Pro chip.

00:31:47   And we need the Pro resource levels for everything.

00:31:50   But what that means shifts up over time.

00:31:52   Now, granted, so does software.

00:31:53   Like, software will use more resources over time as they are available.

00:31:56   But I think it is wise for us to not assume or state that a product can't handle some high-end application unless we've tried it.

00:32:06   Or unless we've seen somebody who's tried it and seen the results and actually compared them.

00:32:11   Actually look at benchmarks or actually look at tests that actually do exactly that thing.

00:32:16   The MacBook Neo is not right for a lot of people.

00:32:18   That's fine.

00:32:19   But it can do almost everything that almost everyone wants to do with their computer.

00:32:26   It might do it more slowly.

00:32:27   It might not, you know, I think the RAM is probably the most limiting factor for a lot of those things.

00:32:33   But again, this is a Mac.

00:32:34   So we have swap and it's fine.

00:32:37   Like, most things can be done that most people will want to do, including photo editing, video editing, all those things that we think of as high-end that you need a big computer for.

00:32:49   Big computers will do it faster, better, and nicer maybe.

00:32:52   But you don't necessarily need it.

00:32:54   So I think it's, again, it's wise to keep that in mind.

00:32:56   Like, even low-end hardware these days is so good that it can do almost everything, just maybe more slowly.

00:33:05   My Tahoe dev machine is an M1 MacBook Air.

00:33:09   Runs Xcode.

00:33:10   I open as many things as I want.

00:33:12   No problem.

00:33:14   We are sponsored this week by Claude.

00:33:16   So let me tell you a true story.

00:33:18   This really, really is true.

00:33:19   Earlier this week, I thought to myself, you know, Claude has sponsored the show in the past.

00:33:24   They're sponsoring this week.

00:33:25   They were kind enough to give us a little bit of credit for Claude Pro.

00:33:30   Let me see if I can find a problem that I've really wanted to tackle and I've never been able to.

00:33:35   And that problem was intense.

00:33:37   The system by which an iOS app can vend actions to shortcuts.

00:33:44   And for the life of me, I've bounced off of this API like five times.

00:33:47   I just, it's so inscrutable to me.

00:33:49   I don't know if I'm a dummy or if the documentation is awful.

00:33:51   But one way or another, I just could not get my hands around it.

00:33:55   And so I thought, let me see if Claude can do it.

00:33:57   And so let me tell you that Claude is the AI for minds that don't stop at good enough.

00:34:02   It's the collaborator that actually understands your entire workflow and things with you.

00:34:05   Whether you're debugging code at midnight or strategizing your next business move,

00:34:08   Claude extends your thinking to tackle the problems that matter.

00:34:10   So my problem that mattered was building an intent.

00:34:14   I asked Claude by way of Xcode because it's all integrated.

00:34:16   And I said, hey, can you generate an intent for me to get information about a movie or a show or a person?

00:34:24   And it said, sure.

00:34:24   What next?

00:34:25   And I said, okay, well, can you make another intent for me?

00:34:28   And as the kids say, it effectively said, bet.

00:34:31   And so next thing I knew, I have a small suite of intents ready to go on test flight, all thanks to Claude.

00:34:38   This is an API that I could not get my head around, and Claude did it lickety-split.

00:34:42   It was incredibly cool and genuinely eye-opening.

00:34:45   But there's other things that Claude does.

00:34:46   It'll do deep research.

00:34:48   It has connectors, you know, via MCP, which is very, very in vogue right now.

00:34:52   You can have it build artifacts.

00:34:53   You can do, like I was describing, agentic coding.

00:34:55   There's a learning mode where you can see exactly how it thinks and debugs and so on and so forth.

00:35:00   All sorts of incredible stuff.

00:35:02   So if you're ready to tackle bigger problems, then get started with Claude today at claude.ai.atp.

00:35:07   That's C-L-A-U-D-E dot A-I slash A-T-P.

00:35:10   And check out Claude Pro, which includes access to all of the features that I just talked about.

00:35:14   Claude.ai slash A-T-P.

00:35:16   Thank you to Claude for sponsoring the show.

00:35:18   Speaking of CPUs, then, let's talk about performance cores versus super cores.

00:35:27   Brendan Shanks writes that's new in Xcode 26.4 beta 3, CPU family ARM Sotra, which is H17S, that contains P cores and M cores.

00:35:38   Now there's a cluster type M enumeration to go with type E and type P.

00:35:44   John, can you translate all that for me, please?

00:35:45   Yeah, so H17S is the codename for the M5 Pro that was missing.

00:35:51   And I remember that rumor was like, oh, there's a bunch of these codenames in a new version of whatever OS it is.

00:35:56   But there's no H17S.

00:35:57   Where is the M5 Pro?

00:35:58   Well, I don't know why it wasn't in there.

00:36:00   But it's in there now.

00:36:01   And the M type is the, you know, it's medium.

00:36:06   It's between the E efficiency cores and the P, which are not the performance cores, but are the super cores now.

00:36:12   This is, can we just like, I'm just going to adopt this, the nomenclature of just like small, medium, and big.

00:36:18   Because that's what they are, like, there's the big cores and, you know, they call them super now.

00:36:22   The big cores are super cores.

00:36:24   Okay.

00:36:24   The smallest cores are what are called efficiency cores in the base chips.

00:36:29   Okay.

00:36:31   And then the Pro and Max now have a new medium core.

00:36:35   The base chip has small and big.

00:36:38   The Pro and Max have medium and big.

00:36:41   And it is indeed a new core.

00:36:43   Yeah.

00:36:44   And they used M probably.

00:36:45   I mean, I don't know if they meant medium or whatever, because it's not like it's large and small.

00:36:48   But anyway, M is a lot easier to remember.

00:36:51   We'll see if the E cores ever gets phased out, because the plane M5 has them, but maybe, like, the plane M6 won't.

00:36:56   But we'll see.

00:36:57   Yeah.

00:36:59   So, that simplifies the nomenclature a little bit more.

00:37:03   And then Quinn Nelson had some more info on this.

00:37:05   Right.

00:37:05   So, as per Quinn, the M5 Pro and M5 Max are on N3P, while the M5 plane was on N3E.

00:37:16   Additionally, citing Baidu leakers with regard to the cores, the super cores are 4.61 gigahertz with 10 wide decoding.

00:37:23   John, what does that mean?

00:37:24   That means that when you're decoding instructions, you can do 10 at the same time.

00:37:28   It's like, how wide is the superhighway running through the chip, sort of?

00:37:33   Gotcha.

00:37:33   The performance cores, which are M cores, are 4.38 gigahertz with 7 wide decoding.

00:37:39   So, about 70% of the performance of a super core.

00:37:43   They also inherit the dual operating mode of the efficiency cores, which is to say that they can drop to a low power state for background tasks.

00:37:50   Then the efficiency cores are 3.05 gigahertz with 6 wide decoding.

00:37:55   Yeah.

00:37:56   So, I mean, that's small, medium, large, like Margaret was saying.

00:37:59   10 wide, 7 wide, 6 wide.

00:38:01   So, the width is not that much wider than the efficiency core, but the clock speed, it can go up to 4.38 instead of 3.0.

00:38:07   So, it seems like the clock speed increase alone is the main source of, you know, what makes an M core faster than an E core.

00:38:13   It's just, it goes up higher.

00:38:15   It's just clocked higher.

00:38:16   And it is a little bit more wide.

00:38:17   And you can see how it's within, you know, shouting distance of the 4.6 gigahertz of the big super cores.

00:38:26   Then, Andrew Cunningham at Ars Technica has some more differences between the chips.

00:38:30   With regard to L2 cache, the super or P core has 16 megs.

00:38:34   The performance or M core has 8.

00:38:36   And the efficiency or E core has 6.

00:38:39   It's interesting that in cache, the medium is closer to the small than it is because it's the largest twice as much.

00:38:46   So, that's like, what makes a super core super, one of the things is they just spend more transistors and more space on cache.

00:38:51   The minimum clock speed, we were just talking about maximums, but the minimum clock speed for performance, or super, excuse me, is 1,300 megahertz, 1,308 megahertz.

00:39:03   The performance is 1,344 megahertz, and the efficiency is a scant 972 megahertz.

00:39:09   Yeah, so the medium ones don't go as slow as, they actually don't even, the big cores actually go slower than the medium cores, and they don't nearly go as slow as the efficiency cores.

00:39:18   Although, I do wonder if this is the thing that Quinn posted about inheriting the dual operating mode to go to a low power state.

00:39:25   I wonder if there's actually a lower clock speed below the 1,300, but who knows?

00:39:29   Then, Frederick Orange writes,

00:39:31   Fusion architecture in one slide.

00:39:33   This slide is not the reality, it's just to show the main IP blocks.

00:39:36   I think the green surface is probably smaller, so we'll put a link to this in the show notes.

00:39:41   But suffice to say, it appears to me that the CPU die is pretty much the same across the M5 Pro and M5 Max,

00:39:49   but the GPU die is quite a bit different, and there's some sort of interposer-like thing connecting the two.

00:39:54   Well, so that's the thing about this drawing.

00:39:55   I put this in here because I wanted to, you know, someone was just coming up with like,

00:39:59   maybe it looks like this inside the chip because we haven't seen a real die shot.

00:40:02   And so this is kind of just, you know, I think the GPU thing is accurate.

00:40:05   It's clear that like when they just chop off half the GPU, that's, it's going to look like half the GPU is chopped off.

00:40:09   We've seen that before with the M1 and M2 Max and Pro.

00:40:11   But I don't think there is a, you know, those green strips, those interposer things, I don't think that's how they're doing it.

00:40:18   The whole point with the new TSMC process of the 2.5D stacking thing, SOIC MH, is that it doesn't have that.

00:40:27   But I don't know enough to know.

00:40:28   So we'll wait to see an actual die shot.

00:40:30   But if you want to get an idea of like what kind of stuff is in the chip, even if this is not how it's arranged or how it's connected to each other, this, which is basically a repurposing of die shots of earlier M series chips, gives you an idea of what the difference is between these two chips and how, and the relative sizes of the parts.

00:40:47   We also need to perform a correction from last week.

00:40:51   Richard Allen writes, MacBook Pro storage upgrades didn't actually get any cheaper.

00:40:54   It only looks this way because the base storage was doubled across the lineup.

00:40:58   For the M5 or M5 Pro, this was accompanied by a 100-pound increase to the base models, previously a 200-pound build-to-order.

00:41:06   In effect, this means that the price for storage is 100 pounds cheaper across all storage configs than the last gen, but the gaps between storage tiers remains the same.

00:41:14   Yeah, I asked how he was figuring this out because when I was trying to get this info for the review, I made the mistake of missing the deadline to check Apple's website for the upgrade prices.

00:41:25   Like they do the thing where the store goes down.

00:41:27   Anyway, I couldn't go to apple.com and actually use the configurator for the old things.

00:41:34   So I did what I usually do, which is go to archive.org to use the configurator as it existed before the new products came out.

00:41:40   But archive.org cannot handle whatever JavaScript redirect stuff the Apple Store does, and I could not get to the screen where I could choose the storage size options.

00:41:50   And so I asked Richard, what are you basing this on?

00:41:53   Is it just based on your memory?

00:41:54   And he said it was based on the Mac Studio storage prices, which you can still go and configure because that hasn't been updated to the M5 yet.

00:42:01   And also his memory of what it used to be.

00:42:03   And obviously this is in pounds because he's in the UK.

00:42:05   But yeah, it's tracking the price delta changes across generations is made extremely difficult when archive.org fails me.

00:42:13   The next time I'll have to remember to get all of the upgrade prices before the machines come out.

00:42:18   All right.

00:42:19   There's also new keyboards on the MacBook Pros, at least here in America.

00:42:23   Dan Morin writes, interesting change between the M4 and M5 generations of MacBook.

00:42:28   Apple's replaced some of the keyboard labels with glyphs alone.

00:42:30   Tab, caps lock, shift, delete, and return.

00:42:33   Function, control, option, command, and escape all retain their labels.

00:42:37   So let me repeat that.

00:42:38   Now there are just glyphs for tab, caps lock, shift, delete, and return.

00:42:42   The following remain as words, function, control, option, command, and escape.

00:42:47   Also, we are aware, as Dan writes, that this has been the case outside the United States for some time, but it's also the case here now, too.

00:42:54   Yeah, it's kind of weird because there's only a few keys.

00:42:56   It's not like, you know, it's like they're saving money by not having to localize those or whatever.

00:43:00   But it's, you know, most of the keyboard is the same.

00:43:03   But they're just standardizing.

00:43:04   I don't know.

00:43:06   I think it's fine.

00:43:07   I think it's useful because the menus use these same symbols.

00:43:11   Like, they use the up arrow for shift.

00:43:13   They use the little returnee glyph for return and the thing, you know.

00:43:16   So if someone is looking in the menu and seeing a keyboard shortcut, they're like, what key is that telling me it is?

00:43:21   It is good to see those same symbols on the keyboard.

00:43:23   I'm not sure you had to remove the word because, you know, command and option and stuff have both the symbol and the word.

00:43:29   But that's because command, option, and so on and so forth are sometimes spelled out in Apple's own documentation.

00:43:35   They don't just use the symbols.

00:43:37   They actually usually use the word.

00:43:40   So, you know, I'll get used to it, I guess.

00:43:43   And the rest of the world's been used to it for a while, I suppose.

00:43:45   We got a lot of questions about what are third-party alternatives to Apple's displays?

00:43:51   You know, say I want something akin to the studio display or even the XDR, but I don't want to pay Apple pricing.

00:43:57   What should I get?

00:43:59   John, what are your thoughts on this?

00:44:00   Yeah, we've talked about a lot of alternatives in many, many past episodes.

00:44:04   And I'm sure we'll revisit this topic in a future episode.

00:44:07   But at this point, it's best to wait until all the CES announced displays are actually shipping and have been reviewed.

00:44:13   We talked about some of those displays on past episodes, but they're not out yet.

00:44:16   So, rather than, you know, sort of go through a list of good alternatives now and say this information will be out of date in a month, we might as well just wait until all the displays that were announced at CES are released and then we'll come back to it.

00:44:29   All right, and then Dan Boyle writes, I'm listening to the studio display XDR discussion, and there was a comment about third-party monitors missing integration features that Apple monitors have.

00:44:38   I've been using a Mac as my primary computer since around the turn of the millennium and haven't used an Apple-branded standalone display for probably two decades.

00:44:46   What have I been missing on the integration side, aside from not burning a couple hundred extra dollars with each purchase?

00:44:51   I mean, I haven't used – I've used the studio display and I have these LG 5Ks.

00:44:58   I think what you're missing is that it's – everything is just a touch better.

00:45:02   So, like, the panel on the studio display – this is the OG studio display – is better than the panel on the two LG 5Ks that I have.

00:45:09   The LG 5Ks like to occasionally wake up slightly dimmed.

00:45:14   Why?

00:45:15   I don't know.

00:45:15   They just do.

00:45:16   The speakers on the LG 5Ks are absolutely terrible.

00:45:20   Now, I haven't used any of my computer monitor speakers in, like, a year, thanks to my Sonos setup.

00:45:25   But the studio display was reasonable and, allegedly, the new ones are much better.

00:45:29   The LG 5Ks were truly terrible.

00:45:31   Additionally, by and large, I don't really long for having buttons.

00:45:37   I did at the very beginning when the studio display had a little bit of software quirks to it.

00:45:41   But I haven't thought about the software in the studio display in, like, three years.

00:45:45   After the first six months or so, they got that under control.

00:45:48   So, I think what you're missing is just having a nicer version of everything.

00:45:53   But I don't know.

00:45:54   What am I not thinking of?

00:45:55   I think you're missing some integration stuff.

00:45:57   So, the Apple monitors, everything works on them.

00:46:00   So, there are keys on your keyboard to adjust brightness.

00:46:02   Those are going to work with an Apple monitor.

00:46:04   If the monitor has built-in speakers, those are going to work with macOS.

00:46:08   If I have a built-in camera, that's going to work with macOS.

00:46:10   Now, all of that is true of my LG 5Ks, but what I didn't consider is stuff like True Tone and Night Shift and all that sort of junk.

00:46:17   Yeah, all that stuff.

00:46:17   If there's adjustments in system settings that adjust things like when should the monitor dim, when should it not, should we use Night Shift, should this, should that.

00:46:24   That's all going to work.

00:46:26   Also, macOS knows about all of Apple's monitors.

00:46:29   So, they will come out of the box when you plug them in.

00:46:32   Your Mac knows about them, knows what color profile to run on them.

00:46:35   Like, they're calibrated at the factory, and so are a lot of third-party displays.

00:46:39   But if you get Apple displays, I mean, again, like the Asus advertising was talking about at CES, if you open up your Mac laptop screen and look at that screen, and then you connect an Apple screen to the laptop, the external screen is going to match the built-in screen on the laptop in terms of color and all that other stuff.

00:46:57   And Asus was advertising that they can do the same thing because they have a color profile that matches it.

00:47:02   All this is to say is that they're calibrated to be accurate out of the box.

00:47:05   I'm not even sure if the studio display actually has a different panel than your LG, but it's clear that it looks better than your LG, possibly just because it's calibrated better and has more sophisticated circuitry driving it.

00:47:16   But it's mostly stuff like, like you were saying, does it wake up when my Mac wakes up?

00:47:20   Do I have to plug and unplug it?

00:47:22   Do I have to turn it on and off?

00:47:23   Does the brightness feature work?

00:47:24   Does it default to maximum brightness when I reboot my computer for some reason?

00:47:27   Do the brightness keys on my keyboard not work?

00:47:29   Do the sound keys on my keyboard not change the volume of the speakers that are in the thing?

00:47:34   All of that integration stuff, like the hardware-software integration.

00:47:38   And like you said, if there's a camera built in, you said your LG has a camera and it works with macOS, but maybe a new version of macOS doesn't support it and you have to install a third-party driver.

00:47:47   It's that type of stuff, that type of hardware-software integration.

00:47:50   It's not to say you can't get it to work with a third-party monitor.

00:47:52   The problem is most third-party display makers do not care enough about the Mac to support the features in their monitor in macOS.

00:48:01   Or maybe they support the features in their monitor in macOS when the monitor was released.

00:48:05   And then as years go on, they're like, oh, we're never going to make new drivers for that.

00:48:08   And the drivers stop working in a new version of macOS or something.

00:48:10   So it's not really a technical hurdle.

00:48:12   It's that Apple cares enough about the Mac to make sure all the features in its monitor work when you buy it and continue to work when future versions of macOS come out.

00:48:23   Imphaz asks, would you recommend getting a new studio display XDR or a used 32-inch Pro display XDR for around the same price?

00:48:31   I am going to give you the correct answer to this question, and then these two knuckleheads will give you the wrong answer.

00:48:36   The correct answer is you get a new one.

00:48:38   And yes, I understand that 32 is more than 27, but get a new one.

00:48:42   Everything about that screen is better with the exception of size.

00:48:45   So get the new one.

00:48:46   Now, gentlemen, what's the incorrect answer?

00:48:48   I would say you are correct for one reason.

00:48:51   We don't know if there will ever be a good first-party Apple 6K option again.

00:48:57   So what John was just saying about how, you know, third-party monitors and what Casey was just saying, like all the things that make third-party monitors not very good with, you know, of an experience using with Macs, you are better off having an Apple monitor.

00:49:13   But if you, once you go 6K, once you expand your monitor, going up in monitor size is glorious.

00:49:19   Going down in monitor size is painful.

00:49:22   So if you never use a 6K monitor, you'll never get used to a 6K monitor.

00:49:28   So stick with your 27-inch 5K size and get the best one that now exists, which is Apple's new studio display XDR.

00:49:37   Get that while you still can.

00:49:39   Don't become a 6K addict like me.

00:49:41   You can never go back.

00:49:42   I don't know what I'm going to do if I ever have to go back.

00:49:45   I mean, look, the answer is I would suffer through, you know.

00:49:48   But if you never try 6K, you will never know 6K.

00:49:52   And in every other way, the new Studio XDR is the better choice.

00:49:58   So go with that.

00:49:59   I replied to this person of Mastodon, and I said, I would get the used 6K display.

00:50:04   But if you've never used a 6K display, get the Pro Display XDR.

00:50:07   For the reasons Marco said.

00:50:09   Like, if you've never, if you've never gotten used 6K, don't do it.

00:50:12   Like, just like, you're fine.

00:50:13   You don't know what you're missing.

00:50:14   Get the, like, like Casey said, the Pro Display XDR is a better looking, the, sorry.

00:50:18   The Studio Display XDR is a better looking monitor.

00:50:22   And if you've never used 6K, you don't know what you're missing.

00:50:25   So that's what you should get.

00:50:26   All right.

00:50:27   Let's talk about the Studio Display RAM and storage.

00:50:30   Apparently, as per MacRumors, the Studio Display has an A19 with 8 gigs of RAM and 128 gigabytes of storage.

00:50:40   Why?

00:50:40   Who knows?

00:50:41   The Studio Display XDR, the A19 Pro, has 12 gigs of RAM and 120 gigs of storage as well.

00:50:48   Yeah, it's kind of a shame that you can't boot macOS on these things because, let's be honest, like, as someone was saying, like, this is vastly more powerful than the 5K iMac was.

00:50:56   It is, it is a powerful computer.

00:50:58   It's more powerful than the MacBook Neo, obviously.

00:51:00   Like, now I know that that A19 Pro in there is doing, presumably doing stuff for the monitor.

00:51:07   But I kind of feel like it could do the stuff for the monitor and also run macOS.

00:51:12   Imagine if you, I mean, you're paying three grand for a Studio Display XDR anyway.

00:51:17   Shouldn't it also just be a Mac if you wanted it to?

00:51:19   And, yeah, 128 is tight, but it's kind of cool that your monitor could be a Mac.

00:51:23   I'm sure some will figure out some way to hack it someday, maybe when these things are old.

00:51:27   But, yeah.

00:51:28   And why does it have that much storage?

00:51:30   Probably because it's just those are the chips they had left over that didn't work in phones or something, and they just came with 128.

00:51:38   Like, I don't even know, like, is it, is it less, is it less expensive to get 128 than it would be to manufacture a 64 or whatever?

00:51:45   Because remember the, you know, these are phone chips with like integrated storage, not integrated, but like it's, they're manufactured with, with, for use in phones.

00:51:55   And they have the storage that they have.

00:51:57   You don't need 128 to hold the OS, that's for sure.

00:51:59   And I don't think it's actually storing any data at all there.

00:52:01   And if it was, it wasn't going to, it's not going to be filling 128, but that's what's in there.

00:52:06   A fairly powerful Mac caliber chip that is more powerful than, and has more RAM in the case of the Studio Display XDR than the MacBook Neo.

00:52:15   And speaking of the XDR, I went to the Apple Store today, as I said briefly earlier, and I checked out the Neo and I checked out the Studio Display and the Studio Display XDR.

00:52:31   Interestingly, the Studio Display was mated to a MacBook Neo.

00:52:35   The XDR was mated to a Mac Studio.

00:52:38   And I got to tell you, they were, I don't know, two feet apart from each other.

00:52:44   And there weren't that many people in the store at like two o'clock in the afternoon on a Wednesday.

00:52:48   I went back and forth looking at the two of them.

00:52:50   I used the UFO test website that we used for something in the past.

00:52:54   I don't remember when it came up, but we used it for something.

00:52:56   And I used that website to try to like see what the ghosting and blooming looked like.

00:53:02   And I kept looking back and forth between the two monitors.

00:53:05   And honestly, to my eyes, in a bright Apple store on a very sunny day in Virginia on a Wednesday afternoon, the only way I could tell that the XDR was the XDR was that the 120 hertz scrolling.

00:53:19   I can tell immediately in the same way that, you know, people who believe in Celsius say, oh, you can't tell one degree of Fahrenheit difference.

00:53:26   I can tell.

00:53:27   So can John.

00:53:27   So can Marco.

00:53:28   In the same way, I can tell the scrolling, even just using Safari, I could see the difference in scrolling between the 120 hertz studio display XDR and the 60 hertz studio display.

00:53:40   That being said, for my admittedly crap eyeballs, in terms of like blooming and stuff like that, I really couldn't tell the difference.

00:53:51   I mean, there's no blooming.

00:53:52   There's no blooming on the plane studio display because there's one big backlight.

00:53:54   What you should have just done is like run a movie in Letterboxd.

00:53:57   And so you can see the black bars above and below.

00:53:59   That's true.

00:54:00   That's true.

00:54:00   Then you would notice that the black bars are gray on the studio display.

00:54:02   And by the way, this brings up another aiming problem, a naming problem that we're going to have.

00:54:06   We have been referring to my and Marco's 6K monitor as the XDR for short, and that doesn't work anymore because there's two Apple displays that have XDR at the end of them.

00:54:18   So this is going to be tough.

00:54:19   But I guess as our displays have been discontinued and fade from history, XDR will start to mean the studio display XDR.

00:54:24   But yeah, you'll notice if anything that has to do with black levels.

00:54:28   And remember also we talked about that Safari, there's some setting in Safari that makes it only do 60 hertz unless you flip the setting and let it go higher.

00:54:37   Yes.

00:54:37   And I tried to do that, and I think I succeeded on the XDR.

00:54:41   Obviously, it didn't really make a difference on the non-XDR studio display on the studio display plane.

00:54:45   But again, I could absolutely tell.

00:54:48   Even just scrolling my own website, you can see the difference.

00:54:51   Yeah, because to be clear, that extra setting was only to update the content of the web page at more than 60 hertz.

00:54:58   The scrolling of the web page, which I think is where you notice it the most, is already 120 hertz.

00:55:03   I was talking about the Blurbusters UFO thing.

00:55:05   That's where you needed that.

00:55:06   Which I did try to set.

00:55:08   I'm not saying, this was a very unscientific test.

00:55:11   I didn't think I would even have time to go to the Apple store today had I realized I was going to have time.

00:55:15   And I had a short window of time with which to do it.

00:55:18   So if I had had the time, I would have better prepared for this experience and I would have, like, you know, figured out some video to watch or, like, figured out a good YouTube example, whatever the case may be.

00:55:27   So don't take this, you know, don't hear what I'm not saying.

00:55:30   I'm not saying don't buy a studio display XDR or anything like that.

00:55:34   But I was not as impressed by the mini LED portion of it as I expected in my extremely unscientific test.

00:55:42   You didn't watch it.

00:55:42   You should have pulled up an HDR photo.

00:55:44   Like, that's the other thing you should have done.

00:55:45   Because you're not used to even doing that because you don't have any HDR monitors.

00:55:48   But, like, you'll notice it immediately.

00:55:50   Yeah, that's true.

00:55:51   I didn't think about that.

00:55:52   Again, I should have done more research, but John wouldn't let me.

00:55:55   That's how the song goes, right?

00:55:56   Yep, totally.

00:55:57   All right.

00:55:58   So there are some videos of the studio display XDR, video reviews of the studio display XDR.

00:56:03   MKBHD notes that the power cable remains non-removable, just like the OG studio display.

00:56:09   Although I have to think, I haven't looked this up, but I have to think it is non-removable,

00:56:12   just like the quote-unquote non-removable power cable on the big HomePod.

00:56:16   It's totally removable.

00:56:17   No, I think you can.

00:56:19   In fact, I thought, was it Panzerino that ripped it out of the studio display?

00:56:23   Yeah, I think we talked about it when they first came out.

00:56:24   Like, what they mean is it's not a plug.

00:56:26   It's not a standardized plug that you can plug and unplug.

00:56:29   So they're like, oh, if the power cable fails, you've got to throw out the homeowner.

00:56:31   No, you can yank it out.

00:56:33   It's just not a standard connector, and it's very difficult to get out, but it can actually

00:56:37   be removed and replaced, just not by the end user.

00:56:39   In theory, but having yanked the power cable out of a big HomePod, I can tell you it is

00:56:44   possible to pull it out and put it back in.

00:56:46   It's just way harder than you think it's going to be.

00:56:49   Kevin Sleich writes that the studio display XDR technology white paper goes into a lot of

00:56:54   detail on all the new technologies into Apple's best desktop monitor.

00:56:58   And I completely meant to read this earlier today, and it slipped my mind.

00:57:02   So I have not done my research.

00:57:03   Again, five demerits for Casey.

00:57:05   But John, you did do the homework that this song asked you to do.

00:57:09   So tell me about what's going on in here, please.

00:57:10   Yeah, there's just a few things I pulled from the document that I thought were interesting.

00:57:13   First, Apple is touting the super wide viewing angle.

00:57:16   This is quoting from the document.

00:57:17   So when Apple puts stuff like this in here, they're always like, this part of the monitor

00:57:29   is Apple designed.

00:57:30   I'm like, all right, well, obviously Apple didn't make the panel.

00:57:33   They're not a panel maker.

00:57:34   They got a panel from somebody else.

00:57:36   The panel makers often offer various options for things they can put on in front of the

00:57:41   panel.

00:57:42   But it's like, well, no, Apple designed this polarizer.

00:57:44   It's a special Apple.

00:57:45   Like, did they just make a bunch of requests?

00:57:47   Did they just give a bunch of specs and say, we want a polarizer that does X, Y, and Z?

00:57:50   But suffice it to say that Apple claims that the thing on the front of their monitor that

00:57:55   spreads the light out so it has a good viewing angle is an Apple designed thing.

00:57:59   And it is quote unquote industry leading.

00:58:01   So take that for what you will.

00:58:02   Again, as another potential thing of like what makes a difference between an Apple on a third

00:58:05   party one, Apple will tell you that their polarizer leads to better viewing angles.

00:58:10   I'm not sure this has been measured, but it's a thing they claim.

00:58:12   And speaking of Apple claiming things that they made that they're super proud of,

00:58:16   you may remember the abbreviation acronym T-CON, which stands for timing controller, which is

00:58:24   very strange because the T is for timing and the C-O-N is for controller.

00:58:29   They were touting their T-CON in the 5K IMAX.

00:58:31   We made a special timing controller that because you have to basically run two displays and

00:58:36   we combine them into one with our special timing controller.

00:58:38   Well, they're at it again.

00:58:40   As they say in the document, timing controllers are used to control the timing and display of the pixels on an LCD panel.

00:58:45   Studio Display XDR introduces an advanced new Apple designed T-CON.

00:58:49   They love designing T-CONs.

00:58:50   With four processing pipelines, five embedded microcontrollers and a local frame buffer.

00:58:55   The T-CON controls the LED and LCD layers of the display separately, treating them as two distinct displays with custom algorithms to seamlessly synchronize them into the final image.

00:59:03   So what they're saying is like, there's the LED backlight, which has like whatever, 2,300 little LEDs.

00:59:09   And that is the LCD layer, which has the millions of colored pixels.

00:59:13   And those two things are controlled independently.

00:59:15   Continuing from the document, it also stores and applies calibration data to the pixels and the individual light characteristics for each of the 2,304 LED zones.

00:59:24   Local dimming is controlled at eight times the display's maximum refresh rate to ensure seamless synchronization between the LCD pixel switching and LED modulation.

00:59:32   So I think what they're saying is that they can turn on and off the backlight at eight times the refresh rate.

00:59:40   So eight times 120, which in theory would make sure that the backlight isn't ever lagging behind the LCD.

00:59:47   I'm not sure why it has to be 8X, but that's what they say.

00:59:49   Anyway, continuing the T-Con continuously monitors the brightness histogram and performs machine learning based content analysis to understand the content's blooming potential on the display, then adjust the lighting to minimize bloom.

01:00:01   The T-Con also detects certain patterns that may be difficult for the LCD panel to display and optimizes the display at the pixel level to minimize artifacts.

01:00:09   This is the kind of crap that you have to do when you have, you don't have per pixel lighting control.

01:00:14   The TV makers have been doing this forever, which is like, I've got all these backlights.

01:00:18   I've got 2,000 backlights.

01:00:19   I've got millions of pixels.

01:00:20   How do I decide which backlights to turn on and how bright to make them?

01:00:25   Because I want to minimize blooming, but I also want to have those bright brights.

01:00:28   You know, it's a very difficult thing to do.

01:00:31   And they're coming up with, always coming up with better and better algorithms to figure out what is the right at any given moment at apparently eight times the screen's refresh rate.

01:00:39   Which LEDs should be on and how bright should they be based on what I know is coming in the screen that's going through our T-Con controller?

01:00:46   So, I mean, that's reason number a million why I'm always in favor of pro pixel lighting control because all these problems go away when you don't have to do this.

01:00:55   Which parts of the backlight should we turn on?

01:00:58   You just turn on the pixels, right?

01:00:59   There are other problems that go with that.

01:01:00   It's hard enough just to figure out just turning on the pixels, but now you've got to add this into the mix.

01:01:03   It makes it more difficult.

01:01:04   So, they have had to do, and I'm sure they did this on the MacBook Pros as well, so I'm not sure why they didn't tout it there.

01:01:10   But, like, any mini LED backlight screen has to do this type of stuff to figure out how to minimize blooming, essentially.

01:01:17   And the early, very primitive mini LED backlit TVs did, like, a really primitive job of this.

01:01:25   They would just look at the image and say, okay, well, based on the brightness of the image, this is where it should be.

01:01:29   And they had awful blooming.

01:01:30   And it's not like, like, what has changed?

01:01:32   Have we gotten better at milling the LED backlights?

01:01:34   Mostly, we've gotten better at controlling the backlights to minimize blooming based on what's on the screen.

01:01:38   But challenging situations, like, say, star fields, are always going to be challenging because you want pinpricks of light on a fully black background.

01:01:45   And that's tough to do when you have millions of pixels and thousands of backlights.

01:01:51   On the topic of calibration, they're touting this, Apple displays undergo a state-of-the-art calibration process.

01:01:56   However, as new display technologies, including KSF LED backlight, I don't know what the KSF stands for, QD conversion sheet, that's quantum dot conversions, and OLED have emerged,

01:02:06   even displays calibrated to identical targets using current standards can exhibit significantly different appearances.

01:02:13   This has revealed limitations in the standard colorimetric system derived from CIE-1931 color matching function, or CMF, widely used in the industry for display calibration.

01:02:23   Apple has developed Apple CMF 2026 to aggress the limitations of CIE-1931 CMF.

01:02:30   And the Studio Display XDR is the first Apple display to support it.

01:02:33   So, basically, they're saying, the standards that we use for calibrating monitors aren't sufficient anymore to, because if you calibrate two monitors using it,

01:02:42   and they're like, oh, okay, they're both calibrated, then you just look at both monitors, they're not the same.

01:02:45   And so they've come up with their own calibration standard that is presumably better and takes into account all these new technologies,

01:02:50   like the variable backlighting and OLED and so on and so forth.

01:02:53   And, of course, they named it after themselves, the Apple CMF 2026, and that's what they'll be using on their displays going forward, I would imagine.

01:03:00   To be fair, the CIE-1931, I'm pretty sure 1931 is the year in which it was concocted.

01:03:07   So, it's probably about time for something new.

01:03:10   Is it, actually?

01:03:10   I think that's right.

01:03:12   I may have that wrong, but I believe that to be true.

01:03:15   Anyway, it is an older standard, that's for sure.

01:03:17   And I'm sure it's a standard that predates mini-LED backlighting and OLEDs and quantum dot conversion of colors.

01:03:23   And finally, and I think most interestingly or strangely, they talk about display optimization modes.

01:03:30   Studio Display XDR can optimize performance for the needs of different workflows.

01:03:34   The default mode optimizes for lower latency to balance image quality and responsiveness, resulting in performance similar to other local dimming LCDs from Apple.

01:03:44   So, the default mode is basically it will behave like your MacBook Pro's mini-LED display.

01:03:49   Reference modes optimize for higher quality, prioritizing temporal image quality and frame timing precision over maximum responsiveness.

01:04:00   In this mode, incoming frames are delayed by a small amount to perfectly synchronize the LCD with the backlight.

01:04:06   This eliminates temporal artifacts that can occur with local dimming displays.

01:04:09   You know all these problems you get when you don't do OLED?

01:04:11   This added delay is also used to reduce the stutter that can occur from maintaining front of screen quality as the refresh rate varies.

01:04:19   So, they give a diagram to try to explain this.

01:04:22   Like, the default mode is it just works like your MacBook Pro one.

01:04:25   But they have this reference mode where it's trying to avoid situations where the screen isn't behaving quite the way you want, especially in situations where the refresh rate is changing because the adaptive refresh can go up to 120 and down to, like, 47 and everything in between.

01:04:40   But if you're watching, if you're, like, using it for video and you want to see 24 frames per second video, you want it to refresh at 24.

01:04:45   So, the diagram they give is trying to show, like, here's when frame one is ready, here's when frame two is ready, and here's when frame three is ready, and then here's what's actually put out on the display.

01:04:54   And the optimized for lower latency one, you can see that in the little timeline in the diagram, if you love the document, it shows a one, a two, and a three.

01:05:03   And they're equally spaced in the timeline.

01:05:05   But you can see, oh, frame two didn't get displayed when it was ready.

01:05:09   Frame two couldn't get displayed because when it was ready, it's too late.

01:05:13   The system had already re-displayed frame one again because frame two wasn't ready yet.

01:05:18   So frame two had to wait a little bit before it could go in.

01:05:20   So now the actual gap between when frame one is displayed and when frame two is displayed is longer than the gap between two and three.

01:05:27   And that's a stutter.

01:05:28   You want your frames to be 124th, 124th, 124th, and now that's not the case.

01:05:32   But it's optimized for a lower latency, which is like, look, as soon as it's ready, put it out as ASAP.

01:05:37   The optimized for higher quality one shows one, two, and three equally spaced.

01:05:42   And it shows them being spaced out such that two becomes ready, but it's like, oh, you're ready, but we're not going to display you.

01:05:48   We're going to delay you so you're equally spaced between one, two, and three.

01:05:51   And it re-displays frame one again.

01:05:52   Anyway, the diagram is very confusing, but it's basically like a tradeoff that I think would only be important to, like, I guess, video or anything else where it is really important that you see the actual frame rate and not get any weird stuttering that is a result of the display changing refresh rates or the display.

01:06:11   It's not the same as V-Sync, where it's like, I won't display this frame until the electron beam goes back to the top, but it's similar in a similar idea.

01:06:20   Like, I don't think either mode has tearing because that's not a thing.

01:06:22   There's no electron beam here, but it's like deciding, should I display this frame ASAP or should I delay it to make an equal cadence?

01:06:32   I don't know how you pick between these modes.

01:06:34   I don't know if the application tells the OS that it wants this mode or if it only works in full screen or something like that, but it does remind me a lot of the modes that are possible in gaming displays, which have different goals, obviously.

01:06:47   But there's a million modes and technologies to try to make games look better and play better, and this seems more about fidelity to media.

01:06:55   But this is apparently only a feature on the Studio Display XDR, and like the calibration stuff, only of interest to people who are willing to spend $3,000 on a monitor because they want the highest color quality and the highest possible fidelity.

01:07:08   And also, this whole thing is dealing with, as they say, temporal artifacts that can occur with local dimming displays.

01:07:15   Those OLED displays can't come soon enough, and by soon enough, I mean, I guess in another six years?

01:07:21   Oh, gracious.

01:07:22   I mean, we're not holding our breath, right?

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01:09:26   All right, so I thought I would take over the show for the next little bit.

01:09:33   I don't think I need either of you two anymore.

01:09:35   Let's talk F1.

01:09:36   So, John, what do you think about the Mac Pro?

01:09:39   Oh, God.

01:09:40   See, there's been so many hours of Mac Pro content.

01:09:43   You owe me like 20 minutes of F1 content.

01:09:45   Thank you very much.

01:09:46   Go ahead.

01:09:47   But anyways, so Formula 1 is, you know, a bunch of pretty rich people spending money going around the world racing pretty big, you know, pretty and fast cars.

01:09:58   But I really enjoy it.

01:10:00   I've gotten into it over the last several years.

01:10:01   And there's been a lot of F1 news, particularly for Americans, over the last month or two, because Apple has taken over rights to broadcast all of the Grands Prix.

01:10:12   I think I have that right, basically all the races here in America through Apple TV, which is super-duper exciting.

01:10:19   And I think we talked about it very briefly when that news had first landed here on the show.

01:10:23   But now the season has begun.

01:10:26   We had our race in Melbourne or Melbourne, if you're Australian.

01:10:29   And that was this past weekend as I record this.

01:10:33   This coming weekend as I record this is the Chinese Grand Prix.

01:10:36   And so I have done a little bit of Formula 1-ing, if you will.

01:10:40   I've gone racing through Apple TV, and I wanted to talk about it a bit.

01:10:44   First of all, right before the season started, I think it was early last week, there was genuinely bombshell news that Apple had arranged with Netflix, of all people, to do kind of a content exchange where Netflix is going to air a couple of the Grands Prix or races.

01:11:02   I think the Montreal Grand Prix in particular, which obviously is in Canada.

01:11:06   There might be a couple others.

01:11:08   I forget off the top of my head.

01:11:09   But they're going to air that on Netflix as well as on Apple TV.

01:11:13   But interestingly, Apple TV, you can now use your Apple TV or Apple One or what have you account to play the Netflix show Drive to Survive, which is fascinating and extremely cool because Drive to Survive is basically like a drama documentary about the prior Formula One season.

01:11:35   They have a new five to ten episode run every year, typically coming out shortly before the season starts.

01:11:42   And it is an incredible way to get into F1.

01:11:44   If you are curious about F1 and really want to get into F1, I cannot recommend Drive to Survive enough.

01:11:51   And you can now watch it on Apple TV, which is really cool because I canceled Netflix like three years ago.

01:11:55   And so I was really excited to be able to watch it.

01:11:59   And as it turns out, for reasons that are not exceedingly important, last season was very, very interesting and very, very exciting.

01:12:06   And actually, this season that just started is also interesting and exciting.

01:12:10   And we'll probably talk about or hopefully get to get to talk about why here in a second.

01:12:15   Drive to Survive is a great way to do a recap of last season and kind of understand who the players are and the drivers are, I should say.

01:12:22   But also, you know, the team principal, which is kind of like the coach and all the different teams and understand what made last year so interesting.

01:12:31   And I got to tell you, it is weird whiplash going into the Apple TV app, which I rarely use to begin with, going into Drives to Survive, and then immediately being presented with a Netflix dun-dun, like from the Apple TV app.

01:12:45   It melted my brain, fellas.

01:12:47   It was so weird.

01:12:48   And there's nothing wrong with it.

01:12:50   It was just the weirdest feeling that somehow I'm watching Netflix via the Apple TV platform.

01:12:56   Very, very weird.

01:12:57   Apple has also provided a bunch of previews for the 2026 season.

01:13:02   I'll put a link to a, like, I think it's a 20-minute video that they've created or perhaps Formula One has created that you can watch on Apple TV.

01:13:09   Just to give a very quick pitch for the 2026 F1 season, every five to ten years, I think it's like five-ish years, there's a set of regulation changes that define how you build your race car.

01:13:22   And this year, in 2026, we have a new set of regulations around not only the car, but the power unit, which is a combination of a gasoline and electric motor.

01:13:32   And so the cars are smaller, and they're not as long, they're not as wide, which means on certain tracks, there's likely to be more passing just from a space perspective.

01:13:44   Wait, so they define a formula to make all the cars?

01:13:49   Yes, they define one formula for all the cars.

01:13:52   That's exactly right.

01:13:53   Honest question.

01:13:54   Is that why it's called that?

01:13:55   You know, truth be told, I'm not a big enough F1 fan to know.

01:13:58   I'm sure we're going to get a million pieces of feedback about this.

01:14:00   I'm honestly not sure.

01:14:01   I believe that to be true, because there's Formula 2, Formula 3, etc.

01:14:04   Oh, I don't think I knew that.

01:14:06   Okay, yeah, they're like, you know, in the same way that there's, you know, Double-A baseball, Triple-A baseball, etc., which probably doesn't matter anything.

01:14:13   Margaret doesn't know that either.

01:14:14   Yeah.

01:14:14   No, honestly, I didn't know about Double-A.

01:14:17   I did know about Triple-A because the Columbus team, the Columbus Clippers, when I was growing up, was a Triple-A baseball team.

01:14:23   There you go.

01:14:24   As somebody who likes, you know, hot dogs and having fun, but doesn't care about professional sports, that was a great combination, because you could go to a baseball game, which we did all the time, like on school trips and stuff.

01:14:36   You could get great seats for not that much money.

01:14:39   Everything was easier.

01:14:41   You know, it's not nearly as hard for, like, you know, parking and tickets and, you know, all the prices of everything and, you know, the crowds.

01:14:47   Like, it's like baseball, but fun.

01:14:49   Oh, gracious.

01:14:51   You can send an email to Marco about that.

01:14:54   But anyways, so the new season, they have different regulations with regard to aerodynamics, different regulations with regard to basically the engine.

01:15:01   Everything is turned upside down and inside out, not literally, of course.

01:15:05   And so this is an incredibly good time to get into F1 because all of the people that have been winning for years, it is unlikely they will keep winning.

01:15:14   Basically, every time they do regulation changes of either aerodynamics slash body styles or power units, usually the entire grid gets switched up and the people who sucked suddenly become good.

01:15:25   The people who were good suddenly start to suck.

01:15:27   But now we're getting a switch of everything, the power units and the aerodynamics.

01:15:31   So if you were even lightly interested in F1, I cannot stress enough, now is the time to jump in, particularly if you're American, because you can get F1 for quote-unquote free as long as you're an Apple TV subscriber.

01:15:44   They made a lot of noise, Apple did, about how there will be quad box, which is Jason Snell's favorite thing.

01:15:50   I like it as well, which is to say, when you're watching an F1 race, when you're watching it live, and we'll get there in a second, you can do like one main feed and a trio of feeds off to the side.

01:16:01   So let's say you have the main race feed, kind of front and center, and then off to the side you have maybe your three favorite drivers.

01:16:08   Or maybe you have a map of the racetrack and two of your favorite drivers.

01:16:11   Or maybe you have a map of the racetrack and the state of the tires and one of your favorite, you know, your absolute favorite driver.

01:16:17   And allegedly, there's also, in actually reading from Jason Snell's coverage, there are 30 extra feeds, including a racetracker, driver data, podium channels as well, that show the video of whichever cars are in the first, second, and third places, which is very clever.

01:16:31   And all 22 driver cameras.

01:16:33   So every single one of these cars has telemetry.

01:16:35   Every single one of these cars has a camera strapped to it.

01:16:37   Well, maybe not literally strapped to it, but you get what I mean.

01:16:39   And so you can watch the race from the perspective of your favorite driver, if that's what you want to do.

01:16:44   All of this is really incredible.

01:16:46   And I've been living this world over the last couple of years, which we talked about, you know, several episodes ago, through the really genuinely excellent F1 TV, which is Formula One's first party TV package that they use everywhere else in the world.

01:17:01   And is available here in America, but you can't pay for it anymore directly with F1 as you used to be able to do, and as I did, to the tune of like $120 a year.

01:17:11   But now, if you're an Apple TV subscriber, you can link, and I'll put a link in the show notes of how to do this, you can link up your F1 TV account with your Apple account, and then you get the super mega ultra baller version of F1 TV with full 4K feeds and the whole rigmarole for quote-unquote free, which is really great.

01:17:29   And this is incredibly important right now for Americans, because the Melbourne Grand Prix was at like, I think, 11 p.m. local time, so I stayed up to watch the first like three laps that I passed out.

01:17:40   The Chinese Grand Prix, I think it's at like one in the morning this coming Sunday or something like that, I forget exactly when.

01:17:45   Obviously, as they move to Europe and then to America, these races become a much more tenable time of day for Americans, but it's not great right now.

01:17:53   Well, I decided to watch the race replay on Apple TV on Sunday morning after I'd woken up, and I quickly realized that on Apple TV, you can't do multi-view when you're doing the replay.

01:18:08   And in fact, you can't choose any other audio feed.

01:18:13   So a lot of people really like the Sky Sports Crew, which is a British TV channel, I guess a cable channel, if I'm not mistaken.

01:18:20   And when we got these things on ESPN, we would get their commentary, which was hilarious, as has been mentioned on Upgrade many times, because you'll hear these commentators say,

01:18:29   and on your Sky Sports box, hit the red button to do blah, blah, blah, blah, sysboomba.

01:18:33   And this is being broadcast on ESPN, where we don't have Sky Sports.

01:18:38   It's very unusual.

01:18:39   But a lot of people really like those commentators, despite the fact that they're deeply, deeply biased for anyone British.

01:18:45   Not that I'm grumpy about it.

01:18:46   So anyways, so you can't switch to the Sky Audio in the replay.

01:18:51   You can't get any other cameras.

01:18:52   You can't switch to Sky Audio.

01:18:53   The replays kind of suck on Apple TV, which is really surprising to me.

01:18:59   And perhaps they'll get better, and I'll follow up in the future if they do.

01:19:02   But they really kind of suck right now.

01:19:05   And it's funny, because you can switch over to the F1 TV app, which is genuinely pretty good.

01:19:10   And you can get the replay with multicam, with the Sky Sports commentators, and the whole rigmarole.

01:19:14   The other fascinating thing, and I would love for anyone who's listening to try this, even if you could not possibly care less about F1.

01:19:21   When I did the race replay, first of all, it included like an hour of pre-show, which in the F1 TV app is separated into its own thing.

01:19:30   And I didn't really love that.

01:19:32   But the very first thing I saw was a f***ing ad for American Express.

01:19:36   That was the first thing I saw when I started the replay.

01:19:39   What are we doing?

01:19:40   What are we doing?

01:19:42   The whole value ad for Apple TV is not to see any f***ing ads.

01:19:45   And now I'm seeing an ad for American Express front and center immediately.

01:19:49   Sorry, John.

01:19:49   Front and center.

01:19:50   Well, I mean, I think Apple has been very, very clear that Apple will put ads that it wants to put wherever it wants on all of its products, on all of its services, usually for its services.

01:20:04   I mean, this is usually, this is a little bit.

01:20:05   That's the thing.

01:20:05   But Apple has already, you know, by their actions over and over again over many years, has already said, eh, we don't care about showing people ads.

01:20:15   It's fine.

01:20:16   We will take that trade off.

01:20:18   Like, they have already sold out that part of the user experience many years ago.

01:20:22   And that is, I don't like that.

01:20:25   I don't accept that.

01:20:26   But that is true.

01:20:27   That they don't care about showing you ads and promos as much as they want when it suits them.

01:20:34   Yeah, and I don't love it.

01:20:36   I really don't love it.

01:20:37   Oh, yeah.

01:20:37   Neither do I.

01:20:37   Now, to be fair, I have not seen a live race yet.

01:20:41   And this coming week is not going to be that week either.

01:20:43   So, I would presume, well, certainly the multi-view thing will get better in the live race.

01:20:47   I don't know if there's going to be a, like, pre-roll ad or something like that in the live race.

01:20:52   I really have no idea.

01:20:52   But the other thing that's kind of chapped my bottom is that in the upper right-hand corner, on and off throughout the race, it said in, like, a little, like, half opaque, you know, fade, not faded,

01:21:04   but, for lack of a better word, faded display in the upper right-hand corner, broadcast presented by American Express, Pipe, Apple TV.

01:21:10   What are we doing?

01:21:12   What are we doing?

01:21:13   That's not shown on F1 TV.

01:21:15   I don't have to see any of this bullshit on F1 TV, but I have to see it on the, oh, the special Apple.

01:21:21   We believe in design.

01:21:22   We believe in nice shit.

01:21:23   And I'm seeing this on Apple TV.

01:21:25   Like, what are we doing here?

01:21:27   I don't get it.

01:21:28   I don't get it.

01:21:29   Are there ads on the cars?

01:21:30   Oh, God, yes.

01:21:33   But, I mean, that's just noise at this point.

01:21:35   I'm sure there's infinite ads in the video.

01:21:37   Yes.

01:21:38   You're watching a bunch of billboards traveling 200 miles an hour.

01:21:40   That is true.

01:21:41   You're not wrong.

01:21:42   You are not wrong.

01:21:43   I mean, that's every sport.

01:21:44   I'm a little annoyed.

01:21:45   I didn't think of it that way until just now.

01:21:46   But you're not wrong.

01:21:47   But I don't know.

01:21:48   On that topic, though, I have a question, technical question.

01:21:50   I know you haven't been watching F1 that long, but you were talking about the driver cameras and how you couldn't switch through them in the replays and so on and so forth,

01:21:56   and how they have a camera on every driver's car.

01:21:58   I can't think of any other sporting event where such an integral part of the broadcast is attached to the competitors.

01:22:09   I know in other sports, like, they have the camera that flies over the football field and the NFL and the wires.

01:22:14   And in other sports, they have a thousand cameras around the stadium.

01:22:17   But those aren't – they're not physically attached to the competitors.

01:22:20   Like, I don't – I think maybe in the NFL they put, like, helmet cams on for something.

01:22:24   But they're not literally on every player.

01:22:25   No, certainly not.

01:22:26   They're not an integral part of the broadcast where if – especially if people get used to this, the expectation – first of all, it's the expectation of the producers of the show that they can choose any driver to show at any given time to build the broadcast.

01:22:36   But second, with these apps, now the viewer also gets to choose, I want to see my favorite driver or whatever, right?

01:22:43   So this leads me to think, all right, what happens if the camera on whoever, like, the first or second place person is fails in the middle of the race?

01:22:54   Do they treat it like, you know, whatever, like accident on the track, everyone goes slow, and they, like, fix the cameras or something?

01:23:00   No, no, no, no.

01:23:01   Or do they say, well, tough luck.

01:23:03   The camera broke, but we're not like we're going to tell him to stop because that would really screw up the race because, you know, he's in the lead now.

01:23:09   And, I mean, I guess – I mean, all I know about F1 is from the F1 movie with Brad Pitt, so God knows what I know.

01:23:14   But, like, there are things that can happen on the track that can really mess things up for you if you're in the lead because, like, if there's a crash, it's a safety concern.

01:23:21   Everyone has to, like, stop racing, essentially.

01:23:24   And same thing with, you know, people going to the pit stops or whatever.

01:23:27   So has this ever happened?

01:23:28   My question is, what happens when the camera breaks?

01:23:31   Surely this has happened at one point or another.

01:23:33   What do they do?

01:23:33   Well, so as an example, when I've been watching the F1 TV app, there will often be a crash.

01:23:39   And there was a couple of years ago before I was an F1 TV subscriber where Roman Gross John, his car caught on fire.

01:23:46   It was awful.

01:23:47   I genuinely thought that the children and I had just watched this man die live on air.

01:23:52   It turns out he was fine.

01:23:54   It's an incredible story.

01:23:56   It's worth looking into if you're interested in that sort of thing because you know that it worked out all right.

01:24:00   But before I realized how dire it was when they were still assessing the situation, or I guess it wasn't that crash.

01:24:07   It was a different crash.

01:24:08   But you could go back and look at the perspective of that driver as they're about to crash.

01:24:13   And again, in the four or five years I've been watching F1, this Gross John one was the only time that I genuinely thought this man is either dead or severely injured.

01:24:24   All these other crashes, they're usually up and out of the car almost immediately.

01:24:27   It's a surprisingly safe sport given the danger involved with it.

01:24:30   So anyways, when a crash happens, what you can do is you can flip over to that camera and watch their perspective of the crash.

01:24:38   And then you'll see the driver get out of the car because the camera's like over their shoulder.

01:24:44   And then they'll show like the crane picking up the car.

01:24:48   And then at some point, one of the directors or whatever for F1 TV will be like, well, that's enough.

01:24:52   And then they'll just put up a logo of the team.

01:24:54   And that's that.

01:24:54   And that's the entire rest of the race.

01:24:56   If you go to that camera perspective, you just see a logo for like Red Bull or whatever.

01:25:00   So they do not stop the show if the camera goes bad.

01:25:03   Now with that's for a car that crashed, I'm saying the car is racing.

01:25:05   The person's in first place, but oh, their camera broke.

01:25:08   A wire got loose.

01:25:09   Yeah.

01:25:09   No, I totally, I totally understand.

01:25:11   I've never seen that happen.

01:25:13   I'm not saying it hasn't happened.

01:25:14   I wonder if they have backup cameras, like they have a second one or whatever.

01:25:17   The reason I'm thinking about it is because like, oh, who team could sabotage their own

01:25:22   camera and, you know, make it break at an opportune time for them such that blah, blah.

01:25:28   Anyway, again, all I know is the stupid Brad Pitt movie.

01:25:30   So who knows how realistic this is?

01:25:31   But it is a challenge because if you're a viewer and the person who's in first place, like first

01:25:36   and second place are dueling and you want to see through their camera and their camera

01:25:39   breaks, you miss out on that part of the bra.

01:25:41   You're never going to get that footage back.

01:25:42   So it's like it's, you know, and every sport is like that, you like, you know, if it's

01:25:46   a dramatic play at the end of the Super Bowl or something, which rarely happens.

01:25:49   But anyway, there's a thousand cameras in that stadium.

01:25:52   And if one of those cameras break, don't worry, there's plenty of other cameras like they'll

01:25:55   get the angle.

01:25:56   They'll get the play like this.

01:25:57   It's their job.

01:25:58   They'll get you the content.

01:25:59   But if it's in a car like you can't the car is going zoom, you can't sort of hop onto

01:26:05   the car like a little droid and fix it for them.

01:26:07   They're too busy racing.

01:26:08   So anyway, that's my question about cameras.

01:26:11   If what do they do when it breaks?

01:26:12   To answer that a little bit, I've forgotten that as you're talking, it reminded me that

01:26:18   I believe all the cameras have or excuse me, all the cars have three cameras.

01:26:20   They have the standard camera, which is over the shoulder of the driver.

01:26:24   They have one that's really down low on the front wing of the car and one that's pointed

01:26:28   behind the car.

01:26:29   And so I would assume that if one of the three of those cameras fails, they would just lock

01:26:34   in, for lack of a better word, on one of the other cameras.

01:26:36   I don't know that for certainty, but that's what I would assume they do.

01:26:39   Yeah, well, I've watched too many YouTube videos about plane crashes.

01:26:42   Like, what about when all three cameras?

01:26:44   That will never happen, right?

01:26:46   Don't watch YouTube videos about plane crashes.

01:26:48   It's not healthy.

01:26:48   Not a good idea.

01:26:50   But yeah, I mean, as negative as I am about the advertising, which obviously I'm a touch

01:26:55   negative, I do think that this is, on the whole, really great for Americans, really great to

01:27:02   make the sport more accessible to Americans.

01:27:04   Now, admittedly, ESPN is not that hard to come by.

01:27:07   You know, basically anyone with a cable subscription had ESPN or has ESPN.

01:27:11   But I do think that it's really neat that this is something that Apple is exploring.

01:27:15   I bet you that whenever the time comes in a couple of weeks that there's a race that I

01:27:19   can watch live, I suspect I'm going to be very enthusiastic about the live experience.

01:27:25   I also didn't mention that on the Vision Pro, I think you get five camera angles instead of

01:27:29   four, which is exciting.

01:27:31   But again, maybe they'll make the replays better as well.

01:27:35   I mean, I'm not certain that that's going to happen, but I presume it will at some point.

01:27:39   But sitting here now, I'm kind of meh on the experience, but I do think it has incredible

01:27:45   potential, and I'm really excited for them to realize that potential.

01:27:49   Or in their defense, I guess they have realized it.

01:27:51   It's just I can't tell because I'm here in America where, you know, the races are on in

01:27:55   the middle of the night so far.

01:27:56   But again, I can't stress enough for the two of you and for anyone listening, if you're even

01:28:02   vaguely interested in technology, in engineering, in cars going fast, in the drama of, you know,

01:28:10   these incredibly big, loud personalities, I really do think F1 is worth a look.

01:28:15   And another thing that the F1 TV app does, and I'm pretty darn sure, yes, Apple TV does

01:28:19   do it as well.

01:28:20   They'll also do a race in 30.

01:28:22   So if you wanted to dip your toes in several hours after the race ends, they'll do a 30-minute

01:28:26   cut of the race where, you know, they show all the exciting bits.

01:28:30   And I can tell you the first race of this year, the first half, the first, you know,

01:28:33   30 or so of the 50-ish laps that they raced were really good and really, really exciting.

01:28:39   The back half was kind of a snooze.

01:28:40   But this is such a good time to jump into it.

01:28:42   There's plenty of content out there, both within Apple TV and elsewhere, where you can check

01:28:47   out, you know, what is F1 about?

01:28:49   How does it work?

01:28:49   Et cetera.

01:28:50   This is a great time to do it.

01:28:52   And if you are an American Apple TV subscriber, you really owe it to yourself to just give it

01:28:56   a shot and just see, if nothing else, how are they handling these things?

01:28:59   Especially when I can tell you at some point, multi-view is good, or excuse me, replays

01:29:04   are good now when they have multi-view.

01:29:05   So even if you don't do it now, you should do it later.

01:29:07   But I think you should check it out.

01:29:09   And I think the two of you, I don't know if you have the attention span for a two-hour

01:29:12   race, either of you.

01:29:13   But I think especially the race in 30 might be interesting enough to you to give it a shot

01:29:18   and see what you think.

01:29:19   I'll watch the F1 sequel movie.

01:29:21   Fair enough.

01:29:23   So in the last week or two, I forget exactly when it was, Samsung had their big announcement

01:29:28   for their new phones, or I guess the new Galaxy line of phones, if nothing else.

01:29:31   And they announced the Galaxy S26.

01:29:35   And it has a feature.

01:29:36   I didn't put this in the show notes because I kept forgetting.

01:29:39   I'm assuming John did.

01:29:40   But I'm really glad that which John or whoever put this in the show notes because I really

01:29:43   wanted to talk about this.

01:29:45   The S26 has something called the privacy display.

01:29:48   If you're listening to this in a situation where you can watch a video for a few minutes,

01:29:52   I strongly suggest you pause me for a moment and go watch Samsung's announcement video starting

01:29:57   at 31 minutes and 10 seconds.

01:29:59   We'll put a link in the show notes that hopefully will have a timestamp on it.

01:30:02   But one way or another, we'll have a link in the show notes for you.

01:30:05   This is incredible.

01:30:08   So I have some friends, some dear friends that live locally, you know, right around the corner

01:30:12   from me, basically.

01:30:13   And the husband and wife, they both have these privacy screens on their phones.

01:30:17   I'm sure you've seen this before, where you can only see what's on the screen, basically

01:30:21   if you're looking at it dead on.

01:30:22   And if you're looking at it off, you know, on an angle of any sort, the screen is just

01:30:26   like a deep gray or even black.

01:30:28   It is annoying as hell when they show me their phone because they want me to see something

01:30:33   on their phone.

01:30:34   But if they're not tilted exactly right, I can't see a damn thing.

01:30:38   Yeah, it basically makes the phone unusable in many common situations.

01:30:42   And that's, you know, that's not even taking into account the fact that the color is all

01:30:48   like weird and, you know, everything looks kind of milky, for lack of a better word.

01:30:52   It's not for me.

01:30:54   Not my color.

01:30:54   And these are, I'm not familiar with this.

01:30:57   I've seen them, of course.

01:30:58   But I always assume it's a thing that you attach, that you lay on top of your screen, like a

01:31:02   screen protector.

01:31:02   Are there any phones that have a privacy display like that built into the phone?

01:31:07   Or is it always an aftermarket thing that you stick to the front of your display?

01:31:11   So it's always an aftermarket thing until now.

01:31:14   So the Galaxy S26 has what they call privacy display.

01:31:18   And I'm very unclear on how this works.

01:31:20   They did try to explain it.

01:31:21   I can explain it to you.

01:31:22   It's in the video.

01:31:22   Yeah, well, and I watched the video and it went right over my head.

01:31:25   So we'll come to how in a second.

01:31:27   But what the net effect is, is that you have software control over whether or not the privacy

01:31:33   display, the screen is in privacy mode or not.

01:31:35   So you can control via software on the Samsung Galaxy S26, or I presume there's maybe a subset

01:31:41   of the S26s, but whatever.

01:31:42   I think it's the S26 Ultra.

01:31:43   I forget.

01:31:43   There you go.

01:31:44   You get the idea.

01:31:45   So you can control via software whether or not the screen is visible off axis, right?

01:31:51   Which in and of itself, I think is super freaking cool.

01:31:55   But then they went all Apple on it.

01:31:58   You can, with software, say, hey, anytime I open the Wells Fargo app, blank the screen,

01:32:04   or not blank the screen, you know, make the whole screen privacy mode so that anytime you

01:32:09   open your banking app, the whole screen goes into privacy mode.

01:32:12   So presumably the only person that can see what's going on is you.

01:32:15   But then it gets even freaking better.

01:32:17   Then they have, I don't know the specifics about it, but they showed like a notification

01:32:22   coming down from the top of the screen where only the notification is in privacy mode.

01:32:28   So a subset of the screen is in privacy mode.

01:32:31   That's the coolest part.

01:32:32   This is so freaking cool.

01:32:34   And I want it on my iPhone yesterday.

01:32:36   I'm not sure you do.

01:32:38   But first, let me say one thing about this.

01:32:39   We're calling it privacy mode.

01:32:41   And what it means is you can only look, you have to be looking dead on at it.

01:32:45   It has to, the screen has to be like perpendicular to your eyeballs, right?

01:32:50   If someone is shoulder surfing you, it is very possible for them to be pretty much as perpendicular

01:32:56   as you are and see the screen.

01:32:58   It doesn't make your screen invisible to other people.

01:33:01   It just makes it way harder to shoulder surf you because you have to get right.

01:33:05   You know, you have to be similar angle to the person viewing it.

01:33:09   So if you think this is like, now only I can see the screen.

01:33:13   Well, not true.

01:33:14   Especially like, I mean, if you've ever spied at someone's computer or phone screen, like

01:33:19   on a, for example, on a plane where often you have a view that is fairly direct angle at

01:33:24   the thing because you're right behind them.

01:33:25   And you're looking through like the crook of their, their ear and their shoulder and their

01:33:29   neck at their phone screen.

01:33:30   And they're holding their phone in their left hand and it's actually facing you just

01:33:34   as much as it's facing them.

01:33:35   So just don't, uh, if you get a privacy display, you know, like a, a stick on thing or this

01:33:41   technology, don't assume it literally makes it invisible because people can still shoulder

01:33:45   surf your, you know, passcode.

01:33:48   If you have a numeric passcode or something like that, or see your messages or whatever.

01:33:50   So there is that.

01:33:52   But the other reason you probably don't want this is how it's implemented.

01:33:55   And I, I, that's the reason I looked at this video and got the timestamp out because

01:33:58   I wanted to know how they implemented it.

01:34:00   And they implemented it in a clever way, but also a kind of way that makes you go,

01:34:03   uh, tell me more.

01:34:06   So what they've done, if you, the video is to be believed, the video is, you know, computer

01:34:10   graphics.

01:34:11   It's not, it's not showing like microscopic images of the screen, which I have, I haven't

01:34:14   seen yet, but conceptually they've taken the screen filled with pixels and each pixel

01:34:20   has an RG and a B sub pixel in it.

01:34:22   According to this video, who knows if that's true and it's more complicated, but anyway, every

01:34:27   pixel has an RGB sub pixel and they basically checkerboarded it like a, like a checkerboard,

01:34:32   uh, where every other square, red, black, red, black, red, black.

01:34:36   So the picture, the whole display, every square on the checkerboard is a pixel.

01:34:41   And each one of those squares has an R, G and a B.

01:34:43   OK, hat, let's say the red squares on the checkerboard are regular pixels with huge wide

01:34:50   viewing angles.

01:34:51   The black squares on the checkerboard have RGB sub pixels, but then they have in front

01:34:57   of them a, like a pushed away from them, a little screen with tiny little holes in it.

01:35:03   And that means that the only light that leaves those pixels is the light that is going straight

01:35:08   because any light that's going on an angle hits the little screen thing.

01:35:12   So basically 50% of the pixels are normal pixels and 50% of the pixels are quote unquote privacy

01:35:19   pixels.

01:35:19   When they enable privacy mode, what they do is turn off all the pixels that are not privacy

01:35:25   pixels.

01:35:26   So 50% of the pixels turn off for the regions of the screen that are privacy pixels.

01:35:32   You can imagine that might have some problems.

01:35:34   For example, some of the reviews said, hey, when I turn on privacy mode for the whole screen,

01:35:39   the screen gets a little dimmer because you're literally turning off half the pixels.

01:35:44   Now they probably drive the remaining half higher to try to counteract that.

01:35:48   But that's how it works.

01:35:50   And when you see that it works that way, like, OK, now I totally make this.

01:35:53   And by the way, it also essentially halves the effective resolution or whatever, however

01:35:57   you want it to do.

01:35:58   Again, it's a checkerboard.

01:35:58   Half the pixels are turned off.

01:36:00   So the PPI is cut in half for any region of the screen that is in privacy mode, because

01:36:06   some pixels are the regular wide angle pixels are just plain turned off and only the privacy

01:36:11   pixels are turned on.

01:36:12   And the way they show it in the video is literally the privacy pixels are a regular pixel, but

01:36:16   then floating over it is a screen with four little holes in it for the art or three little

01:36:20   holes for the RGB.

01:36:21   I think there might have been a white sub pixel.

01:36:22   I forget.

01:36:22   So it's just like shining a flashlight and the flashlight has a really wide angle.

01:36:26   But if you put a huge piece of paper in front of it and cut a tiny little hole, now the

01:36:31   only light that comes out of that piece of paper is the light that's going straight through

01:36:34   that little hole and all the rest of the light just hits the piece of paper and bounces back.

01:36:39   So it's very clever.

01:36:40   And that's how you get per pixel control.

01:36:42   But there's nothing, you know, there's no moving parts.

01:36:44   There's no, you know, thing that is switching on and off.

01:36:48   They're just turning off half the pixels for the regions that are in privacy mode.

01:36:53   And I think that may become feasible if you have like a 4x density thing, because like

01:36:57   you don't need the extra density or whatever.

01:36:59   And if we can eventually drive the pixels bright enough.

01:37:01   And by the way, when you're in regular mode, the privacy pixels are on.

01:37:05   So in the regular mode, half of your pixels have a wide viewing angle and half your pixels

01:37:09   have a narrow viewing angle.

01:37:11   So even that I feel like has got to hurt the viewing angle of regular mode because you're

01:37:15   losing some of the light is not spread as wide as it should be.

01:37:18   But the worst, obviously, is privacy mode where half of your pixels are literally turned

01:37:21   off.

01:37:21   So very clever, very cool.

01:37:23   But I'm not sure I'd want an iPhone with this feature because I don't think I first of all,

01:37:28   I don't need the protection it provides.

01:37:30   Second, if I didn't the protection it provides, I'd think very hard about whether I should be

01:37:35   using my phone at all, because I think this type of feature gives some people a false sense

01:37:41   of security, because if someone really wants to shoulder surf you, they just need to move

01:37:45   to a different angle to catch what you're doing.

01:37:47   And granted, it makes it way harder.

01:37:48   It is way better than not having it for privacy.

01:37:50   But if you really need privacy, try not.

01:37:53   If you can possibly avoid doing things that need to be private in a public place, do that

01:37:57   instead.

01:37:57   All right.

01:37:58   Thank you to our sponsors this episode, Squarespace, Claude and Quince.

01:38:03   And thanks to our members who support us directly.

01:38:05   You can join us at atp.fm slash join.

01:38:08   One of the many perks of membership is ATP Overtime, our weekly bonus topic.

01:38:13   This week on Overtime, we're going to be talking about the future of x86 instructions running

01:38:17   in Mac OS.

01:38:19   Join us to hear it at atp.fm slash join.

01:38:22   Thank you so much, everybody.

01:38:23   And we'll talk to you next week.

01:38:25   And you can find the show notes at atp.fm.

01:38:54   And if you're into Mastodon, you can follow them at

01:39:00   A few episodes back.

01:39:30   I, in the pre-show, gave a big rant, which you agreed with, Casey, about the workout

01:39:35   app changes in watchOS 26.

01:39:38   It's driving me batty.

01:39:40   It's really bad.

01:39:41   And I mentioned, I'm like, oh, I'm kind of eyeing a Garmin.

01:39:45   I don't know.

01:39:46   I had never explored the world of third-party smartwatches for iPhones before.

01:39:53   Well, let me give a bit of background.

01:39:56   For the last few months, I have been training for a very large walk.

01:40:04   There is an event that takes place every spring in Manhattan.

01:40:09   This group called the Shorewalkers arranges something called the Great Saunter, which is a 32-mile walk around the perimeter of Manhattan in one day.

01:40:19   Oh, that sounds awful and awesome all at the same time.

01:40:23   Yeah.

01:40:24   I've been getting into longer-distance walking.

01:40:27   It kind of started as a tribute when I lost my dog this past summer and, you know, kind of walking in his honor.

01:40:34   And then it just kind of grew from there into, oh, I want to do this crazy thing, which happens in May.

01:40:40   And so, you know, you don't go from, you know, a routine of one or two-mile dog walks to be able to walk 32 miles in one day without, hopefully, you know, some intervening steps in the middle of, you know, training for longer walks.

01:40:55   And so, what I've been doing is, over the last couple of months, like, slowly ramping up, you know, the amount I've been able to walk.

01:41:02   And so, what that means is taking a lot of long walks.

01:41:06   But, you know, of course, being the nerd, I'm like, obviously, I need to optimize the gear for this.

01:41:11   And, you know, I've optimized, like, the shoes.

01:41:13   I use the toe socks, which look stupid, the Injinji toe socks.

01:41:17   They look ridiculous.

01:41:19   They are a pain in the butt to put on and take off.

01:41:21   But you don't get blisters at all.

01:41:23   And it's amazing.

01:41:24   And thanks to a tip from our friend underscore David Smith, I've been using those toe socks, the thin version of those toe socks with an outer sock so that you get even more cushioning in a nice wide shoe.

01:41:36   I've been having great luck with the Altra Torrin 8 wide shoe.

01:41:40   And it's great.

01:41:41   Okay.

01:41:41   All that stuff aside, I hope that's useful to somebody.

01:41:44   But, of course, I'm optimizing the gear.

01:41:46   And the first thing I think is, well, can an Apple Watch go that long?

01:41:49   Because I want to track the entire walk.

01:41:52   Now, there are breaks.

01:41:54   You know, no one's going to walk 32 miles without taking a break.

01:41:57   It takes, like, 13 hours.

01:41:58   You know, so it's a long time.

01:42:00   But you can stop here and there.

01:42:03   You know, over the course of the day, you have time for maybe an hour and a half total of breaks throughout the day.

01:42:09   You have to stop at every pizza place and have one slice.

01:42:12   Oh, my God.

01:42:12   Yeah.

01:42:14   Anyway, so, you know, I can stop and, you know, top off an Apple Watch with a charger, you know, a couple times throughout the day if I need to.

01:42:23   But, of course, I'm like, well, what if I had a smartwatch that was better for it?

01:42:28   And literally, like, two days after I had said on our show that I was annoyed at the Apple Watch's workout redesign, I went on a very long, like, a 17-mile practice walk.

01:42:41   We did north to south of Manhattan.

01:42:45   And I was using the Apple Watch Ultra.

01:42:53   And at one point, I had, like, you know, I'd gone into, like, a coffee shop to get some coffee in the morning.

01:42:58   And I paused the workout because, of course, it yells at you.

01:43:03   And then, I know you can turn that off, but every so often, the Apple Watch resets all of my notification settings, and I don't know why.

01:43:09   And so I start to get reminded to, like, stand every so often, which is fun when you're on a flight.

01:43:15   Or, you know, you get the notification saying, like, it looks like you've been walking.

01:43:20   Do you want to start a workout?

01:43:21   It's like, I'm just walking, like, you know, across the street.

01:43:23   Like, you know, it's fine.

01:43:24   Or it'll say, you know, if you stop for a second while you're on a walk, you should pause the workout.

01:43:30   That's what I did in the coffee shop.

01:43:32   I forgot to unpause it.

01:43:33   And I only realized that, like, a mile and a half later in the walk.

01:43:38   And so I just lost that mile and a half of recorded progress on the Apple Watch.

01:43:42   And this, you know, the Apple Watch, it's very much like the Apple TV.

01:43:49   This is a product that is kind of half-assed by Apple.

01:43:53   It could be so much better if they put more effort into it, but they seem like they're fine mostly not doing that.

01:44:01   Like, they don't seem like, like, they're not stepping on the gas on this product.

01:44:04   It's fine.

01:44:05   It does fine.

01:44:07   You know, it does well for them, like, in the market.

01:44:09   And they don't seem like they need to try very hard.

01:44:11   They don't think they need to try very hard on this product.

01:44:15   And that's, look, and for the three of you inside Apple who get to work on the Apple Watch and who are trying very hard, more respect to you.

01:44:21   But I think the company's not giving you the resources this product deserves.

01:44:23   Anyway, so I was annoyed at the Apple Watch.

01:44:27   And I'm like, you know what?

01:44:28   Let me see what else is out there.

01:44:30   So, later that night, I ordered a Garmin to try.

01:44:35   Now, I should disclaim.

01:44:37   I probably got the wrong one for me.

01:44:40   So, the one I got was the Venue 4 because it came in a small 41mm size.

01:44:46   And because that size has dual-band GPS support, which I'll get to in a second.

01:44:51   In retrospect, that model was probably a little too small for this particular use, like, battery life-wise and feature-wise.

01:45:00   I probably should have gotten one of the 4Runner models.

01:45:03   The Phoenix 8 is also, like, their flagship thing, and that comes in a 43mm size.

01:45:09   But when I see these watches on other people, they're so big, and they're so bulky.

01:45:14   And they're big and bulky to achieve goals that I don't necessarily need.

01:45:19   Like, you know, certain, like, durability.

01:45:21   Like, I'm not going to be climbing a mountain face, slamming my watch against a rock.

01:45:25   Like, that's not me.

01:45:26   And to Garmin's credit, they serve a huge range with their products.

01:45:32   Like, they have so many different models.

01:45:35   But what I was looking for was something that was small enough to be comfortable and not look too ridiculous on my wrist.

01:45:42   And also, good battery size.

01:45:46   And what I was especially looking for was dual-band GPS.

01:45:50   This is what I thought was only on the Apple Watch Ultra in the Apple world.

01:45:57   So, the reason why this is important is for, you know, most GPS receivers that we grew up with over time, with most phones and most smartwatches until relatively recently, was single-band GPS.

01:46:08   More recent, advanced ones.

01:46:11   Apple first started talking about it with the Apple Watch Ultra, which is the only Apple Watch that has support for dual-band GPS.

01:46:19   When you have dual-band GPS, you generally get more accurate GPS and faster locks and faster and better tracking, especially in places like Lower Manhattan, where you have very tall buildings that are very close to the street.

01:46:35   Like, the streets aren't that wide.

01:46:37   So, the buildings are close to each other and very tall.

01:46:39   And it's hard for GPS signals to get properly recognized and received by little receivers, you know, on your wrist or in your pocket.

01:46:47   So, dual-band GPS was very important to me.

01:46:50   Now, I thought it was only in the Apple Watch Ultra.

01:46:53   And I even had a thought, like, why don't apps like Google Maps on the phone use the GPS in Apple Watch Ultra when you have it on to get dual-band support?

01:47:04   And then I did a bit of research and quickly learned that, actually, iPhones also now have dual-band GPS.

01:47:11   And, in fact, most modern smartphones do.

01:47:14   So, the iPhone Pros have had it since the 14 Pro.

01:47:18   The non-pro iPhones got it this year in the 17, and the Air also has it.

01:47:23   So, all current 17-ish model iPhones, I don't know about the E, actually, I didn't look that up.

01:47:29   But, at least the 17 Air and 17 Pro all have dual-band GPS.

01:47:34   If you have a Pro from the 14, you have it.

01:47:36   And even, like, Google Pixels have had it since the 8 Pro or all 9s and 10s.

01:47:41   I didn't look up Samsung because there's too many of them.

01:47:43   But, anyway, dual-band GPS, I thought it was a requirement.

01:47:47   The Ultra is the only one in the Apple product line that has it.

01:47:51   Other brands, including Garmin, also Suunto was another brand I looked at.

01:47:56   They have lots of options that have dual-band GPS.

01:47:59   So, anyway.

01:48:00   So, I got the Venue 4, the Garmin Venue 4.

01:48:03   Again, I probably should have gone with the 4Runner 570 or the Fenix 8, but oh well.

01:48:08   And the experience of trying a non-Apple smartwatch for the first time.

01:48:13   First of all, there are just paper cuts everywhere.

01:48:18   Like, the whole, like, so first of all, the experience of managing a Garmin in particular.

01:48:23   Garmin has, like, two or three different apps that you have to use for different things.

01:48:30   Like, there's one that connects to the watch, but there's a different one that you use if you want to buy watch faces and stuff and apps.

01:48:35   Oh, my God.

01:48:35   So, it's already, like, off to a rough start.

01:48:38   When you put the watch on, you know, you quickly notice, oh, Apple Watch bands are really nice.

01:48:46   These bands are not.

01:48:48   And it's, like, it's something that, like, if you had never worn an Apple Watch, you would think other smartwatch bands were fine.

01:48:57   But Apple, like, one thing the Apple Watch has gotten right since the start, they have really good bands compared to the entire rest of the watch business.

01:49:08   Their Apple Watch bands are really nice.

01:49:10   They're comfortable.

01:49:11   They're functional.

01:49:12   They don't necessarily always look the best, but they are very nice bands.

01:49:18   Especially their rubber is really nice.

01:49:20   Back when they made leather, their leather was really nice.

01:49:22   Like, they're great bands.

01:49:23   Okay.

01:49:24   So, Garmin watch has a really cheap, crappy-feeling strap.

01:49:27   Now, you can replace it with any standard, you know, that one was an 18mm strap.

01:49:31   Most of them are 20 or 22, whatever.

01:49:33   You can get those on Amazon for nothing.

01:49:34   So, you can put third-party bands on it from the rest of the watch world, but you're missing out on the nice Apple straps.

01:49:40   The charging situation, it has a proprietary charger, again, just like the Apple Watch.

01:49:44   It looks like an old phone charger, like, before phones had USB.

01:49:48   Like, one of those, like, kind of custom, like, couple of prongs on the end of a black thing.

01:49:52   Like, you know, just kind of an elegant charger.

01:49:54   Eh, small thing, but again, little paper cut.

01:49:57   All right.

01:49:58   So, I start to use the watch.

01:50:00   And, first of all, it's very Android-y in the way everything works and flows.

01:50:05   I don't know if it actually runs Android.

01:50:06   I assume it might.

01:50:06   But little things about Android that bother iPhone users, like there's no scroll bounces on the end of a scroll view, that kind of thing.

01:50:15   Those are everywhere because, of course, it's a different platform.

01:50:17   And you don't realize when you're not used to, you know, when you're used to the Apple Watch.

01:50:21   And also, watches have very small screens relative to other computing devices and relatively few buttons, but they usually have some kind of buttons.

01:50:30   And so, you have to kind of learn to navigate a watch.

01:50:34   And you don't realize how much, like, muscle memory you have for navigating the Apple Watch until you have to try a different kind of watch.

01:50:40   And when you go from an Apple Watch to a Garmin, the navigation of everything works differently.

01:50:47   From simple stuff to, like, you know, what direction you, like, do you swipe up or down?

01:50:51   Do you swipe left or right to navigate certain things?

01:50:53   How do you go back?

01:50:54   What do the buttons do?

01:50:55   Where are the buttons located?

01:50:57   Like, all of that stuff is different.

01:50:59   So, there's a pretty steep learning curve.

01:51:02   And most of it, I don't think, was better.

01:51:05   It was just, oh, I just have to learn this thing that's different.

01:51:08   And at this point, I will say, I'm sorry, Casey.

01:51:12   Round is not the right choice for a smartwatch screen.

01:51:17   Really?

01:51:18   I was going to say this when this came up, when we talked about it before, but we moved on to something else.

01:51:22   But, like, round is totally the Apple shape for a smartwatch because it is impractical.

01:51:29   And some designer would insist upon it because of the circular.

01:51:32   Because it's circular and it's so perfect and it's round.

01:51:35   And it's just, like, the most inside area for the least outside area.

01:51:39   And, you know, mathematically perfect circle.

01:51:42   But Apple didn't do that.

01:51:44   Apple was pragmatic.

01:51:45   Apple made it rectangular because they knew that most of the content besides the watch face was going to be, like, text and buttons and other stuff that's used to being a rectangular screen.

01:51:53   So, despite YouTube both complaining, oh, do you believe, you know, Apple doesn't make a round display or whatever.

01:51:57   If Apple had made a round display, all three of us would be saying, why didn't they just make a rectangular?

01:52:01   So, we're a tough crowd out here.

01:52:03   Yeah.

01:52:04   And really, like, and that's a good point, John.

01:52:06   Because, like, when you think about when the Apple Watch was designed, this was, like, peak, you know, Johnny Ive had the least editing and had his head furthest up his own butt at that time.

01:52:18   That's how we got a gold one.

01:52:20   He did get no ports on the watch.

01:52:22   Right.

01:52:22   Yeah, no ports.

01:52:23   To the point of the Garmin thing, which is a port.

01:52:25   Yeah, sort of, yeah.

01:52:26   But, yeah, like, if there was a time when Apple would have done something totally over the top for the sake of design, you know, purity,

01:52:34   the Apple Watch, the original Apple Watch design was the time for Johnny Ive to do that.

01:52:39   And even then, he didn't.

01:52:40   And it took only a couple of minutes of using the round watch for me to say, oh, yeah, this is the wrong choice.

01:52:49   Now, Garmin does actually sell a square model, but it doesn't have dual-band GPS.

01:52:53   So, I didn't consider that one.

01:52:56   As you're looking at anything, scrolling anything, going through lists of anything, reading text from notifications, which I'll get to in a second, like, doing all of those actions, everything you would commonly use a smartwatch for, a round screen was worse than a rectangular screen.

01:53:15   I wish that wasn't the case because I think round watches look nicer as watches.

01:53:20   Like, as a thing that you wear, round does look better.

01:53:23   But it doesn't work better for a smartwatch.

01:53:26   And any time there's any text, it just hurts because you just feel like you're fighting the hardware just to do the most basic thing of reading text on the screen.

01:53:36   Because you have to scroll everything to see everything in every list.

01:53:40   I would say otherwise, like, the available watch faces, they're a little loud visually, for my taste.

01:53:50   The screen was nice.

01:53:52   It was fine.

01:53:52   But, like, the watch faces were, eh.

01:53:54   The way their complications worked, the complications kind of sucked, if I'm honest.

01:54:01   There are third-party watch faces that look all right.

01:54:06   I didn't explore it much because I decided this watch was not, for me, a spoiler.

01:54:11   But, so I decided I wasn't going to, like, you know, start buying watch faces for two bucks each to look at them.

01:54:15   But the experience of using a non-Apple smartwatch on iOS is also pretty restrictive.

01:54:23   And this is almost entirely Apple's fault.

01:54:26   You know, this is not Garmin's fault.

01:54:27   This is entirely on Apple.

01:54:29   And we'll see if some of, like, the, you know, the regulatory stuff, especially in the EU, we'll see if this changes things much.

01:54:35   But the biggest things you notice when you don't have an Apple watch, when you have a third-party watch, are you don't have watch access for Siri, which is, it turns out I do that a lot.

01:54:48   A lot of times, the reminders that I create for myself through Siri, a lot of those I do from the watch.

01:54:54   Like, I'll just hold it up and say, hey, remind me to whatever.

01:54:56   Also, speaking of reminders, another restriction is you can't respond to notifications, including you can't, like, use the extra buttons that show up on a notification.

01:55:09   So, when I get a reminder alert and I want to hit snooze, I can't do that on a third-party watch.

01:55:15   Only Apple watches have access to do that.

01:55:17   So, this is not necessarily, it's not Garmin's fault, but it is Garmin's problem.

01:55:24   So, that just, it makes the experience much worse.

01:55:28   And there were, basically, every part of it was full of more paper cuts to me.

01:55:34   Like, I realized, like, I would take it off, but if I didn't turn, if I didn't power it off, if it was just off my wrist, like, sitting on my desk, you know, if I wasn't using it, every notification that came out of my iPhone, the Garmin watch would buzz, it would vibrate.

01:55:51   And it's sitting on the desk, so it's, you know, it's very, you know, loud, inelegant.

01:55:55   And literally every, even though it is off my wrist, so it knows, you know, it has a sense, like the Apple Watch, it knows I'm not wearing it, but it still chooses to vibrate on every single one.

01:56:05   Maybe there was a setting somewhere to change that.

01:56:06   I didn't get that far with it, but it just became very obvious to me, oh, yeah, this is, this is not, this is not working for me.

01:56:14   Like, I had to decide, like, how much do I hate the Apple workout app?

01:56:19   Do I hate it so much to put myself through all of that?

01:56:25   You know, just, just to, like, how many paper cuts am I going to tolerate on this other platform that is really optimized for very different things than what I care about?

01:56:34   How many paper cuts will I endure there to spite the Apple workout app for that one big paper cut of how, you know, starting a workout is clunky now?

01:56:43   Like, it was, it was too far in the other direction.

01:56:46   It was too clunky for me.

01:56:48   So, instead, I, I went back to the Apple Watch and for, I did, let's see, one or two more practice walks since then.

01:56:59   And I, there was a couple, there's an app, people were, obviously, you know, there's third-party apps that you can use.

01:57:05   There's third-party workout apps.

01:57:06   And I first asked our friend, David Smith, I said, hey, should I be using Workouts++ for this?

01:57:11   And he informed me that that no longer exists.

01:57:12   Whoops.

01:57:13   But, because I still have it on my phone.

01:57:16   Like, that's how I view my workouts.

01:57:17   He's got hiking features in Pedometer++ these days, right?

01:57:20   Yeah, exactly.

01:57:21   So, first, other people online recommended that I try an app called Workout Doors.

01:57:26   Workout Doors, I, I tried it out.

01:57:28   It is hyper-customizable.

01:57:31   I would say if you are looking for something like Workouts++ that is still being made, that's something to look at.

01:57:38   It's more like a workout app construction kit.

01:57:40   I found it too much for, like, too, a little too nerdy for me.

01:57:46   If you remember, like, old Downcast, like, back before I made Overcast, the podcast app I used on my phone was Downcast.

01:57:54   I don't know if it still does.

01:57:55   I haven't looked at it in a long time.

01:57:56   It's still around, but I don't know if it's still like this.

01:57:58   But it has, like, every option under the sun.

01:58:00   And that's part of what I liked about it was, like, it had the options I wanted, but it was an intense app in terms of, like, settings configuration.

01:58:07   That's, that's the vibe I got from Workout Doors.

01:58:11   If you want something super custom, you can probably build it with Workout Doors' options and stuff.

01:58:16   But that was, it was way too much for what I was looking for.

01:58:20   And then I remembered, oh, yeah, underscore added a whole bunch of, like, long hike options to Pedometer.

01:58:26   Maybe, you know, Pedometer++.

01:58:28   Maybe that's the app I should be looking at here, especially since I already have it.

01:58:31   I just, and I had it on my watch.

01:58:33   I just didn't, like, there's a whole, like, like, walking mode, like, a hike mode of it that I just hadn't really explored before.

01:58:39   And so I tried that on my last practice walk a couple days this past weekend.

01:58:45   And it was great.

01:58:47   It was, I downloaded the offline map to it.

01:58:51   So as I was walking around Manhattan this past weekend, I was able to, it showed a little arrow on the screen.

01:58:57   I was able to, you know, go around all nice.

01:58:59   When the screen was in, like, dim mode on the Apple Watch, it shifts to red, which probably saves somewhat on energy, but at least looks cool.

01:59:08   It was, like, the experience of using Pedometer++ as my walk tracking app was way nicer than the built-in Apple Workouts app.

01:59:22   It was way nicer than any other apps I tried.

01:59:25   And it was way nicer than the Garmin's built-in stuff.

01:59:27   I recognize that, like, the Garmin and that world, again, they have a lot of needs they cover that Apple doesn't cover.

01:59:34   You know, if you're going to be on a hike somewhere for multiple days, you don't want an Apple Watch.

01:59:40   You want something like a Garmin.

01:59:41   And you want one of the big ones that has, like, you know, the eight-day battery.

01:59:44   Like, you want that.

01:59:45   You know, or if you're going to be doing some kind of extreme sports that need that kind of physical characteristics that the Garmin's have, that's going to be better for you.

01:59:55   But for me, where I'm mostly just doing walks and, you know, I do my other workouts.

02:00:00   Like, you know, I have, like, a kind of a strength training kind of set up over here.

02:00:04   I have a trainer that, you know, I do over FaceTime.

02:00:06   You know, but, like, that's any Apple Watch can do that.

02:00:09   It's one hour mixed workout.

02:00:11   Like, Apple Watches do that just fine.

02:00:13   For these long walks, I'm using the Ultra, you know, for battery life and for that dual-band GPS.

02:00:19   And for that purpose, I think Pedometer++ with the Apple Watch Ultra is going to be my, you know, my ongoing setup now.

02:00:29   And when I do the real Great Saunter, the real 32-mile walk in a couple of months, I'm going to use that, I think.

02:00:36   So all of this to say you just needed a different app on your Apple Watch.

02:00:42   Yeah, basically.

02:00:42   Yeah, that's...

02:00:43   All right, good deal.

02:00:44   Yeah, yeah, yeah.

02:00:47   Do you have any desire to try any of the other Garmin's?

02:00:51   I don't know, whatever.

02:00:53   Well, so I think the...

02:00:55   From what I have heard from people in this world, I think the next thing I would try would probably be the Suunto.

02:01:00   Like, they have a model called the Race S that looks like it would be a reasonable size and it would have the dual-band GPS that I'm looking for.

02:01:10   But it also just seems to me like the experience of using a non-Apple smartwatch with an Apple platform just has too many paper cuts and limitations that I don't think any of them will be necessarily worth it for me.

02:01:24   Now, again, if I had like a need for some of their physical differences that the other brands offer, I would consider that.

02:01:32   But the reality is the Apple Watch Ultra will serve this need just fine for me.

02:01:37   I will, based on what people are saying, if I want like, you know, full GPS and full heart rate for the entire walk, which I might not necessarily need the full heart rate, but if I want that for the entire walk, the Ultra might not last long enough.

02:01:51   I might have to charge it like at one of the stops, but it's fine.

02:01:54   I'm sure I can, you know, charge it at the halfway point when I stop for like, you know, a drink of water and a meal for a few minutes.

02:01:59   And I'm sure that will be fine.

02:02:01   Well, I'm glad you went on this experiment so I didn't have to.

02:02:05   Yeah, you were on the, you were right on the verge.

02:02:06   Yeah, I really was.

02:02:08   But yeah, I think you would, I think you would, you would hit all the same paper cuts and I think they would, they would irritate you just as much.

02:02:14   And, and I think you'd be very disappointed in the reality of using a round screen smartwatch.

02:02:18   Yeah, I think you're probably right.

02:02:20   And I, I do freaking hate the workouts app.

02:02:25   I hate it.

02:02:27   Just today, I was scrolling through the workouts app and I found the workout I wanted, which was not dead center.

02:02:33   It was one off from dead center and I tapped on that workout and started the actual workout that was dead center because as I went to tap it, the stupid play button came up.

02:02:42   Oh my God, I hate it.

02:02:44   God, I hate it so much.

02:02:46   When we had that rant, a few people did write in and be like, it's not that bad.

02:02:48   It's fine for me.

02:02:49   It's not that bad if you always do the same type of workout.

02:02:51   Like if every day you wake up and you, and you do outdoor run and you, and you do an outdoor run every morning and that's all you do with it.

02:02:57   It's a lot less bad.

02:02:59   It's when you have to, when you change between, like I mentioned, you know, I do my workouts with my trainer.

02:03:02   So that's, I do indoor other for that, but then I'm on these walks, so outdoor walk.

02:03:06   So, or I might do an indoor, indoor row if I'm using the rowing machine.

02:03:10   So like I will frequently switch between two or three different workout types.

02:03:14   I almost never do the same one twice in a row.

02:03:16   And so almost every time I'm using the Apple workouts app, I am changing.

02:03:21   Like the first thing I'm doing is navigating to a different type, but even that like, and, and, oh, and people also have mentioned, including people in our chat are saying now, like you can just also start workouts via Siri.

02:03:31   You can also do it via shortcuts.

02:03:32   That's fine.

02:03:34   That also works kind of frustratingly slowly and about 80% of the time in my experience, but not a hundred percent.

02:03:42   So like, it's not that much better.

02:03:44   Like I usually just, I keep the workout complication on the face as, as one of my main complications.

02:03:50   I could just tap it and, you know, go from there.

02:03:51   But, um, there is no like, you know, good, reliable, fast option that is anywhere near as fast as just older versions of the workout app were.

02:04:00   Um, also, you know, I mentioned earlier the thing where, where the, I got mad because it, it, you know, I forgot to resume it when I left the coffee shop and I lost a mile of my workout, you know, from being tracked.

02:04:11   The Apple watch, when it started out a thousand years ago, it had to be really careful with battery.

02:04:18   Now it still has to be careful, but it has to be a lot less careful because we have way bigger batteries.

02:04:23   Now that's how we can have things like always on screens, cellular modems.

02:04:27   Like, you know, we can have all that in there because the battery has gotten bigger.

02:04:30   And especially when you look at something like the ultra, it's way bigger.

02:04:33   Um, what I wish they would do is be a little more forgiving about the workout app.

02:04:41   So one thing they do, for instance, is when you, when you have the feature enabled that it prompts you to start workouts.

02:04:47   If it, if it detects that you're doing one, if you leave your house and start walking on the block and a half a block later, it says, Hey, it looks like you're walking.

02:04:56   Do you want to start a workout?

02:04:57   If you say yes, it includes the data from that first half block.

02:05:01   Once it figured out that it looks like you're working out, it starts recording that data.

02:05:05   That's great because what that means is if you mess up in some way, like if you start a walk without starting the workout, you have like an, like an undo.

02:05:14   You have like a, like a save there.

02:05:15   Like, Oh, I didn't lose that progress.

02:05:17   You saved it for me.

02:05:19   Thank you.

02:05:19   I would like to see that extended.

02:05:22   So first I think anything, any pause, it should like, once you start, like if I have a walk and I pause the walk because I have stopped moving.

02:05:34   Once I leave the location I am at, it should be smart enough to say, Hey, you know what?

02:05:39   Maybe I should prompt you because you just left where you were.

02:05:41   Maybe I should prompt you and maybe I start recording this information.

02:05:44   So when you say, yes, I did in fact leave, you, you can patch that data in or stop or keep recording it in the first place.

02:05:54   Um, you know, obviously with limits over time for battery life, but like if I'm only pausing it for a few minutes and I forget to unpause it, like you could record that for an hour afterwards and be fine, especially on the larger model watches.

02:06:07   So I would love to have like a little bit of more forgiveness there, like spend some of the power budget to build in forgiveness so that people don't, so people have more of those opportunities to save themselves from their own mistakes.

02:06:19   Secondly, every single thing in the workout app should be undoable.

02:06:23   And right now I think none of it is, for instance, I am terrified that on this walk, I will accidentally end the workout early and I want it to be one big one.

02:06:32   I know that's stupid.

02:06:33   I can just do another one, but right now, like you can't, like, I guess maybe some app might exist that can take two workouts and merge them, but Apple's doesn't do that.

02:06:42   Uh, and I don't know if it's possible.

02:06:43   And, you know, so like the workout app right now, if you accidentally end the workout, you can't undo that.

02:06:48   If you pause the workout, you can't undo that.

02:06:50   If you accidentally hit some button that adds like a segment or something, you can't undo that.

02:06:54   There is so much about the workout app that's incredibly unforgiving.

02:06:58   And I wish it wasn't because it's a computer and we have the technology to do that.

02:07:02   So there's so much about it that I, that I, I wish was, this is true of the whole Apple watch platform.

02:07:08   It is the best, I think, of its category for most people.

02:07:13   And again, I can say the same thing about the Apple TV.

02:07:16   The Apple TV compared to its competitors is the best of its category for most people, but it could be so much better if they just put more effort into it.

02:07:27   And it seems like they took their foot off the gas with the Apple TV because it's fine.

02:07:31   And I think the Apple watch is not that much better.

02:07:34   The Apple watch is for most people, the best smart watch for them.

02:07:39   Certainly for iPhone users.

02:07:41   I think it is, it is the best smart watch for almost all iPhone users needs, but it could be so much better if Apple just put more effort into it.

02:07:52   They just seem to think they don't need to, or they, or like the things they do to it are things no one's asking for and things that we keep asking for, they just ignore.

02:07:59   One of the many things that can make it better is just some attention to some of those workout mechanics.

02:08:04   Like, first of all, obviously fix the horrible UI regressions that made it much harder to use and more error prone and take longer to start up.

02:08:12   But also consider fixing some of those problems of just like, yeah, let's make this thing a little more humane and a little smarter.

02:08:19   And let's give people opportunities to do what they want, to save themselves from mistakes, to prevent mistakes in the first place and to save their data.

02:08:28   Because that stuff matters.

02:08:29   Like, if you track your workouts and you just lose some of it, that is very demotivating to a lot of people.

02:08:36   That can make somebody like, you know, quote, fall off the wagon or whatever and like stop working out.

02:08:39   Or if, you know, if you lose a streak, if you break a streak, like those have real psychological, you know, implications for a lot of people.

02:08:47   Those have really measurable, you know, drops in, in things you want to optimize.

02:08:53   Like you want people to keep working out.

02:08:54   You want people to feel good about their working out.

02:08:56   You want them to like, to be consistent with their routines.

02:08:58   So if you, if they like have some kind of discouraging problem, like losing a workout or losing progress somewhere, that can make them stop doing that or, you know, can really demotivate.

02:09:09   So anyway, that's what I want to see with the Apple Watch is like, we, we are in a new era now with the Apple Watch where you have so much more power available to you because the hardware is so much better than it used to be.

02:09:23   I want to see them move some things forward.

02:09:24   And that's, that's one of the big ones.

02:09:26   Yeah.

02:09:27   So I'm going to do this live and Marco will cut it out if it isn't right.

02:09:31   But one of the things that drives me freaking crazy and is just another perfect example of how broken the workouts app is, is that on the weekends, Aaron and I will go on walks of our neighborhood together.

02:09:44   As it turns out, our neighborhood is like almost to the, to the meter, a 5k walk.

02:09:51   If we go through all the cul-de-sacs and so on and so forth, it's like a 5k.

02:09:54   And so typically Aaron and I will, for the weekends, you know, for our exercises of the weekend, we'll go on a walk together and, you know, the kids will come for at least a portion of it and we'll do the full 5k, about three miles.

02:10:06   And if it's raining or if it's extremely cold, instead, what we'll do is we'll use our elliptical that we have in the house.

02:10:12   That's a very unremarkable, very not impressive elliptical, but it does the job, right?

02:10:16   And depending on how much time I have and whether or not I've been fairly active already during the day, I might go anywhere between 20 and 30 minutes on the elliptical.

02:10:24   And in order to do that, I need to open the workouts app in here.

02:10:29   I'm going to do a live.

02:10:30   I open the workouts app and I'm presented and I scroll down to elliptical.

02:10:33   And if you just tap on the icon for elliptical, which is what I would do by default in order to get more details about the workout I'm about to do, it does nothing.

02:10:43   It just sits there.

02:10:44   Great.

02:10:44   Okay.

02:10:45   So in the northeast corner, there is, or at least on my watch right now, there is something that looks like a timer.

02:10:52   And so, okay, fair enough.

02:10:53   So I hit that.

02:10:54   Great.

02:10:54   All right.

02:10:55   So it says your workouts time 25 minutes.

02:10:58   Well, I don't want to do 25 minutes.

02:11:00   So I guess what I need to do is I need to edit this 25 minute thing.

02:11:04   Okay.

02:11:04   Fair.

02:11:05   So in the corner of this little button that says time 25 minutes, there's a little pencil icon.

02:11:11   So I tap on that.

02:11:12   Okay.

02:11:12   Fair enough.

02:11:13   So then there, it says time 25 minutes, start workout, share workout, delete workout.

02:11:17   Okay.

02:11:18   Well, I don't want 25 minutes.

02:11:19   So the time 25 minutes, I tap that.

02:11:21   So now I'm presented with hours and minutes.

02:11:23   So I'm going to go back to 20 minutes, let's say, and I'm presented with the two spinners for hours and minutes.

02:11:30   On the bottom, there's a giant yellow button that says done.

02:11:34   In the upper left, there's a back Chevron.

02:11:36   So I'm going to change from 25 minutes to 20, and I'm going to hit done.

02:11:41   And I'll give you one guess what is on the prior screen because it goes, you know, navigates, pops, pops up to the prior screen.

02:11:48   And I'm now looking at the time, start workout, share workout, delete workout.

02:11:53   Would you like to guess after I hit the done button, after changing the spinner to 20 minutes, what this prior screen shows?

02:12:01   Still f***ing shows 25 minutes.

02:12:02   So what I need to do is instead, I need to go back in and I make this mistake every time.

02:12:09   So I've gone back in, I've hit the same button I just hit.

02:12:11   Now I've got the two spinners again.

02:12:13   Instead of hitting the giant button that says done, I need to hit the back Chevron.

02:12:20   And now the prior screen says 20 minutes.

02:12:23   In what way does this make sense?

02:12:25   In what way does this make sense?

02:12:27   Do the people that work on this app ever work out ever, ever?

02:12:32   I don't understand.

02:12:33   I don't understand.

02:12:35   See, that overall feeling, a lot of times, a lot of the details about the Apple Watch, I think like, you know, Apple historically has had really talented people who have really great taste.

02:12:48   You know, I started with Steve, and then of course, you know, he instilled that culture among the company and people who had that kind of great taste were attracted to work there.

02:12:55   So you have all these people who have really great sensibilities for like what a good experience is, what good design is, how things should work in clever, delightful, useful, helpful ways.

02:13:07   And every single Apple employee that I have ever seen outside of the company wears an Apple Watch.

02:13:14   So I know they're using it.

02:13:16   But it's like, I don't get the impression when I'm using the Apple Watch that a lot of those people in Apple who have those opinions, who like, are they being listened to with the Apple Watch?

02:13:31   Do they have the resources that they need to make the Apple Watch that good of an experience?

02:13:36   Because it just seems just like a solid, all-around, B-plus kind of product.

02:13:43   And Apple strives to not make B-plus products.

02:13:47   They strive for better than that.

02:13:48   And again, in some ways, the Apple Watch is great.

02:13:52   But overall, it could be so much better.

02:13:56   It's a computer.

02:13:59   It can do everything.

02:14:01   And they just don't do it.

02:14:05   They don't let it do it.

02:14:06   They don't put in the resources to do it.

02:14:07   They don't put in the flexibility to do it.

02:14:09   The faces are still a disaster.

02:14:11   They're still like, I still, when I look around the built-in complications for so many things that just aren't there, like, why is there no, like, sunrise and sunset complication for this certain size?

02:14:24   Why does the one that's there always have text all over it?

02:14:28   Like, there's so many little things, like, when you try to, when you look around what complications are available from Apple for their built-in apps and features, they're just so half-assed and limited.

02:14:40   And the watch faces themselves, like, that's a whole thing, where that's a whole half-assed situation as well.

02:14:45   And it's just like, are they, do all those people who care and see these problems and limitations, like, what do they need to make the Apple Watch better?

02:14:58   Because whatever it is, the company's not providing it to them.

02:15:01   And I wish they would.

02:15:02   Because this platform, it is the best of its category for most people.

02:15:06   But it doesn't mean they can take their foot off the gas.

02:15:10   It doesn't mean that they can't make it better.

02:15:12   Apple's ethos, in so many ways, has always been, like, don't just be satisfied.

02:15:18   You know, once you are dominating a category, like, that doesn't mean you should stop making good stuff.

02:15:23   I mean, I know more recently there's been a lot more exceptions to that.

02:15:26   But I wish they would push a little harder on the Apple Watch.

02:15:31   Because it has so much potential.

02:15:33   And it has a pretty good foundation.

02:15:35   Like, you can do a lot with what they've built here.

02:15:37   But they're not doing a lot.

02:15:40   And they could.

02:15:41   Get in line behind the Mac.

02:15:43   Speaking of platforms that are best in category, but that Apple is not improving at the rate we wish it was.

02:15:49   And in some ways, making it worse.

02:15:51   Sound familiar?

02:15:52   I think the Mac is in a way better starting place, though, than the Watch.

02:15:56   Like, you know, the Mac is, like, a mature platform that already does everything we want it to do.

02:16:01   Like, it's already built.

02:16:03   It's already great.

02:16:04   The Apple Watch.

02:16:05   Like, you know, the Mac is able to have questionable leadership and resources now because in the past, it had all the resources.

02:16:17   Like, it was the main focus of the company for so long.

02:16:20   And that's when all this stuff was being built.

02:16:21   It's when it built this foundation of awesomeness.

02:16:23   The Apple Watch never had that.

02:16:26   It was never the focus.

02:16:27   It was never, like, the golden child.

02:16:29   It was never getting all of the attention from the company.

02:16:32   It was always kind of this, like, side division, seemingly, that always got what appeared to be very little resources from the company.

02:16:40   And so it doesn't have that basis of laurels to rest on.

02:16:45   Beep, beep, beep.