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594: Featuring Crimes

 

00:00:00   Hello, welcome to my lecture.

00:00:30   Yeah, it gets weird after this.

00:00:31   Or it gets special.

00:00:32   It gets special.

00:00:33   There you go.

00:00:34   We've got the holiday special next week.

00:00:36   Yeah.

00:00:36   The upgrade is the week after that.

00:00:38   Yeah.

00:00:39   We'll talk about it.

00:00:40   But I want to do some snow talk with you to start today's show, as we always do.

00:00:44   And Adi wrote in and said, Jason, do you have a favorite snack?

00:00:48   I don't know.

00:00:50   I mean, I don't know if I have an answer to this question.

00:00:53   That's my favorite kind of snow talk.

00:00:55   Favorite snack?

00:00:57   Yeah, if I said to you, you know, go to the supermarket.

00:01:00   You can buy whatever you want.

00:01:01   Or you're going on a road trip.

00:01:03   You can eat whatever you like.

00:01:04   What are you going to grab?

00:01:05   Get some Doritos?

00:01:06   You're going to get some Skittles?

00:01:09   Well, I mean, Doritos are good.

00:01:12   That's like a perfectly engineered food.

00:01:14   Yep.

00:01:14   Nacho cheese Doritos.

00:01:15   Yeah.

00:01:16   Oh, yeah.

00:01:18   I like the honey mustard Snyder's of Hanover pretzel pieces.

00:01:24   They're like super, super intense.

00:01:27   Yeah, I like those.

00:01:28   Like you can taste them all day after you have them.

00:01:30   During the pandemic, Adina and I bought a Philly cheesesteak box.

00:01:34   You know, I remember all those boxes, like, because restaurants were just trying to do their best to survive.

00:01:40   And they included some of those honey mustard Snyder's pretzel pieces.

00:01:44   And, like, that is a high we have been chasing ever since.

00:01:47   They're not easy to find here.

00:01:49   It's dangerous.

00:01:50   That's incredible.

00:01:51   And that's the, yeah, favorite snack.

00:01:53   Yeah, I guess what made me pause there is it's a question of, like, is it all-time favorite or is it the thing that I use as my go-to, like, if I need a snack during the day?

00:02:04   And, honestly, the answer to that is probably, like, boring, like, peanut butter.

00:02:09   I've been known to just eat a spoon of peanut butter as a snack.

00:02:15   Nice.

00:02:16   Or almonds, or we have a trail mix that's got almonds and cashews and, like, dried cranberries or something in it.

00:02:23   And it's stuff like that.

00:02:24   But, yeah, I would, those pretzels, the nacho cheese Doritos are a good one.

00:02:29   What else would we take on a road trip?

00:02:32   That's a really good question.

00:02:34   I mean, yeah, we try not to, you know, try not to invest a lot in junk food, but for special occasions, maybe that.

00:02:40   Actually, the funny thing is, and this is a perfect segue into our next segment, which is, the funny thing is, our Friday Night Curling League has a tradition of you try to bring in an unusual snack.

00:02:51   So, you go to the store and you stand at the snack aisle and you try to find the weirdest new promotional flavor of Oreo.

00:03:00   Amazing.

00:03:01   Yep.

00:03:02   Or chips with weird flavors.

00:03:05   Some people live near various, like, a Korean grocery or a more generic, like, Asian grocery in the East Bay, and they will bring in unusual for Americans chip flavors from elsewhere in the world.

00:03:20   So, that's been a lot of fun.

00:03:22   So, we buy a bunch of those weird snacks, and those are also fun.

00:03:25   I will say, I think it's actually a lot of fun to try all the different weird Oreos.

00:03:31   Some of them are good, most of them are not.

00:03:34   Did you try the Coca-Cola ones?

00:03:35   I don't think I tried those.

00:03:38   Okay.

00:03:38   That's particularly strange to me.

00:03:40   Coca-Cola flavored Oreo, but they did that.

00:03:42   They also did Oreo flavored Coca-Cola, if you can imagine such a thing.

00:03:45   Oh, yeah.

00:03:46   Well, that's a thing they do.

00:03:47   Yeah.

00:03:48   That's a thing they do, because I had something else that was like that, that was the two different things where it's like, we're here, and also we made the opposite of this in the other thing, too, right?

00:04:00   A few days ago, I was at the train station, and I saw an ad of KFC that says, featuring gingerbread Pepsi, and I was like, no.

00:04:09   Yeah.

00:04:09   No, I don't want that.

00:04:11   Yeah, why?

00:04:11   I really don't want that.

00:04:13   It's featuring crimes.

00:04:16   What's that?

00:04:17   Who wants gingerbread flavored Pepsi?

00:04:19   So the Oreo flavor, the weird Oreo flavor that I had, it's actually pretty good, is Selena Gomez.

00:04:25   I'm not kidding.

00:04:28   What?

00:04:28   There's a Selena Gomez flavor Oreo.

00:04:30   It's basically chocolate and cinnamon.

00:04:32   It's basically horchata, but it's Selena Gomez flavor Oreo.

00:04:38   That is truly bizarre.

00:04:41   It is.

00:04:42   It is.

00:04:42   We're like, what does Selena Gomez Oreo taste like?

00:04:45   I get it.

00:04:47   And you bite into it, and you have to say, mmm, Selena Gomez.

00:04:49   Right?

00:04:49   Like, I get it.

00:04:50   It's the Selena Gomez Oreo.

00:04:53   But also, like, the problem is, and I guess they're probably leaning into it in that way,

00:04:56   of, like, that Oreo do lots of different things, you know, flavored things, right?

00:05:02   So it's like, oh, you're essentially saying this is the flavor of Selena Gomez.

00:05:06   Yeah.

00:05:07   Well, if that is true, perhaps she leaves a cinnamon chocolate scent in her wake.

00:05:14   I could imagine, actually.

00:05:15   I could imagine.

00:05:16   The packaging is odd, because it's a pair of Oreo beets on the packaging, and I'm not sure

00:05:21   that I get that.

00:05:22   I don't know if Selena is known for music these days.

00:05:25   I don't.

00:05:27   She's got the headphones on in the Only Murders in the Building opener and stuff.

00:05:31   Like, that's sort of a character trait of that.

00:05:33   Maybe it goes from that.

00:05:35   I don't know.

00:05:35   Anyway, that was a surprise.

00:05:37   There are, most of them are disappointing, but some of them are good.

00:05:40   And, yeah.

00:05:41   So most of my junk snack intake is actually Friday nights after curling.

00:05:46   You know, this is one of those classic ones where it starts with, I don't know how

00:05:51   how to answer that, and we end with Selena Gomez flavor.

00:05:54   You know, that's just sometimes how the show begins.

00:05:56   If you would like to send in a Snell Talk question of your own, please go to

00:06:00   UpgradeFeedback.com and send one in.

00:06:03   We have some follow-up.

00:06:04   You referenced curling.

00:06:05   Last week, we spoke about curling media, songs, movies, and the like.

00:06:10   Yeah.

00:06:10   And a surprise podcast.

00:06:12   Indeed.

00:06:12   Yeah, I was quite surprised.

00:06:14   I was quite surprised.

00:06:15   Curling Skittle.

00:06:16   Two different curling song recommendations.

00:06:20   Yeah.

00:06:21   Andrew wrote in with Curl by Jonathan Colton.

00:06:25   This is one of the Thing A Day songs that Colton did forever ago.

00:06:28   Yeah, I like Colton, and I had never heard this song.

00:06:30   It's good.

00:06:31   Yes.

00:06:32   So the story is he wrote it during or right before one of the Winter Olympics in

00:06:37   like 2004 or something, 2006, I guess, about like, and it's basically like the skip, it's

00:06:44   a skipper, wakes up, and he's got to do this and stand in the cold.

00:06:48   It's cold outside, but it's colder inside, and they're going for gold, and then they have

00:06:54   to balance their lives with trying to do this on the ice, and it's nice.

00:07:00   And the trivia bit is that the skipper of the U.S. team at the time was John Schuster,

00:07:06   who did eventually win the first gold medal in U.S. curling history at the Olympics in like

00:07:13   20, whenever that was, 16, 14.

00:07:16   I can never remember the Olympic years.

00:07:19   Anyway, so that's a fun song and a very Jonathan Colton song.

00:07:24   And this is also back when, like, you know, the kids don't remember this, but when Jonathan

00:07:28   Colton was the original, like, I'm going to do, I'm going to make a song every single day

00:07:32   person on the internet.

00:07:35   I mean, eventually this music went to YouTube, but originally it was just on his website,

00:07:39   which was where I first went to find this song, but all the links were dead, but then I found

00:07:44   it on YouTube.

00:07:45   On YouTube.

00:07:46   And then also The Curling Song by Bowser and Blue.

00:07:50   Yeah, it's not, not really stylistically my, my choice, but it's certainly very knowledgeable.

00:07:54   And I think the point, I think the point made in the lyrics is actually really good, which

00:07:58   is it's, uh, it's Canadian, which makes sense because it's big in Canada.

00:08:02   And it basically says, um, you, it's highlighting the fact that curling is a recreational sport

00:08:11   that people, that regular people can play.

00:08:13   So I think the song ends that you can, more people curl in Canada than play hockey because

00:08:19   it's harder to play hockey.

00:08:20   Um, but, uh, yeah, so I appreciate it.

00:08:23   Not, not, you know, it's really my cup of tea, but I appreciate the, the lyrics to it.

00:08:27   Jeff Williams has joined the board of Disney, which I was surprised to see this.

00:08:35   It's not surprising that a big executive at a company would join a board.

00:08:41   Um, but I guess this is what Jeff wants to do in his retirement, do a little bit of board,

00:08:45   board work, still take, it's nice salary, you know, it's nice, nice, nice way to retire.

00:08:50   Yeah.

00:08:51   Cause it's not, you know, he's not going to be in the, in the Disney mines every day and he'll

00:08:55   get compensated to do this.

00:08:57   I think this is a, strikes me as a fairly common way, uh, you find directors.

00:09:02   And in this case, it's two companies that are kind of linked together in a lot of ways.

00:09:06   Um, and so having a senior executive at Apple, um, retire and then become a board member at

00:09:12   Disney does not, it doesn't surprise me at all.

00:09:15   And also it feels like as well that like typically when you're at that level, you, you know, you,

00:09:20   you do this for companies you're interested in.

00:09:22   Maybe Jeff is a Disney guy and like, this is the thing that he wants to do, right?

00:09:26   Cause you've got like Eddie Q is on the board at Ferrari.

00:09:28   Is Tim on the board at Nike or was that, is that somebody else?

00:09:32   That might be, I don't know.

00:09:33   I think he is on the Nike board.

00:09:35   I believe he is.

00:09:36   Um, but this is the thing that happens, uh, a lot.

00:09:40   And, uh, but I was surprised.

00:09:42   I was surprised to see this.

00:09:43   I had just because of the way that Jeff, uh, uh, retired, I kind of got the sense that he

00:09:49   was just like done, done, but no, taking a, taking a board, board roles.

00:09:52   That's not, that's, that's a nice retirement.

00:09:54   And Tim is on the board at Nike, by the way.

00:09:55   Good memory, Mike Harley.

00:09:56   Uh, Apple and Google have announced that they are working together on creating a set of features

00:10:01   that will make easier to switch devices.

00:10:03   Uh, these features are shipping in the Android beta for pixels now, and will come in a future

00:10:09   beta of iOS 26.

00:10:10   So nobody's actually really sure what's in there because you can't, you can't test it.

00:10:14   It's like, oh, it's in, it's in the Android beta, but Apple have not shipped it.

00:10:17   So, you know, I was doing a bunch of reading today, like for sites to say like, oh, what

00:10:22   is in there?

00:10:23   And well, nobody knows exactly yet what the process is like, because you can't do what it's meant

00:10:28   to be done because on the Google have put their part forward.

00:10:31   Uh, yeah, it's going to be focused on helping you move your data essentially between these

00:10:35   devices.

00:10:36   The EU have claimed victory on this saying it is quote, an example of how the DMA brings

00:10:41   benefits to users and developers.

00:10:43   I will read from, uh, the, the EU press release on this because it, they go into some detail

00:10:49   of what this stuff could include.

00:10:51   Uh, the operating system portability solution, which is a terrible name, uh, will allow users

00:10:56   to easily transfer data from iPhone to Android and vice versa.

00:11:00   So when they set up a new device, it will support many types of data, including contacts, calendar

00:11:04   events, messages, photos, documents, wifi networks, passwords, and even data from third party apps.

00:11:09   It will also work wirelessly.

00:11:11   These are major upgrades compared to the currently limited data transfer solutions.

00:11:16   So it seems somewhat like some of the data that would move from iPhone to iPhone, uh, Android

00:11:22   phone to Android phone will now be able to move between the two somehow.

00:11:27   Now I'm fascinated to see how some of this stuff will work.

00:11:31   Um, but interestingly, if this is related to the DMA, which I mean, it clear, I mean, I

00:11:36   don't know why else Apple and Google would decide to do this.

00:11:39   It's actually a worldwide thing.

00:11:40   This is not like a European thing.

00:11:42   Um, this is going to be available to people all over the world.

00:11:45   So this is a benefit, I think.

00:11:47   Well, they, both sides have tried to do like move to iPhone apps for Android and move to Android

00:11:53   from iPhone and things like that.

00:11:55   Right.

00:11:55   They've tried to do things like that.

00:11:57   But that's hostile, right?

00:11:58   Those were hostile apps where this is the two companies have actually had to have had to

00:12:03   work together on creating some kind of portability between file structures, right?

00:12:08   Yeah.

00:12:08   Like moving all your photos is probably essentially been an impossible thing to do until now, um,

00:12:15   without uploading them to a cloud service in between in the middle.

00:12:18   Right.

00:12:19   Um, and so, yeah, I think this is fantastic.

00:12:21   Uh, we'll see, we'll see, but it's good for, good for the users.

00:12:25   Good for consumers.

00:12:25   Absolutely.

00:12:26   And also, I mean, if you're confident, it's good for the companies, right?

00:12:31   Like for Apple, if Apple's confident that it will be able to win over more Android users

00:12:36   in time, then this is good for them, right?

00:12:38   It makes it easier for people to switch.

00:12:39   Um, but also the reverse is true.

00:12:42   Uh, Apple have announced that Pluribus is their most watched show ever.

00:12:48   Yeah.

00:12:49   How about that?

00:12:49   I mean, that's, that's more than Ted Lasso, more than Severance.

00:12:53   More than the studio.

00:12:54   I mean, you know, these are shows that will be successful for them.

00:12:57   I think, you know, there are a few things going on here.

00:12:59   One, this show has a lot of interest and intrigue and people want to watch it because it comes

00:13:03   from Vince Gilligan.

00:13:04   And also, you know, this is the effect of Apple being better and better over time.

00:13:09   They have more subscribers now, um, than they've had before.

00:13:14   I think that's probably true.

00:13:15   Um, we've seen, there's some numbers that suggest that they've actually had quite a bit of success,

00:13:19   I think in Amazon channels.

00:13:22   Yes.

00:13:22   I think they're in Amazon channels now.

00:13:24   And that allows people who, in some ways it may be even like takes a little bit of the

00:13:30   fear away.

00:13:31   I think that some people who are not in the Apple ecosystem look at Apple TV and are like,

00:13:35   well, I can't do that.

00:13:36   Yes.

00:13:37   Um, but if you're in the prime video app, you can do it that way and you still get all

00:13:41   the stuff.

00:13:41   And yeah, I think it's a, it's a service that's growing.

00:13:43   And so obviously there's more of a user base from which to get, uh, higher viewing numbers.

00:13:51   So, I mean, good.

00:13:52   It's a great show.

00:13:53   I love it.

00:13:53   No spoilers.

00:13:54   All right.

00:13:54   But I'm just letting Jason know this.

00:13:56   I have started watching it now.

00:13:57   We're a couple of episodes in and I'm enjoying it a lot.

00:14:01   It's a, it's a fascinating, I feel like where I am at least genre bending show, I think is

00:14:08   how I would describe it.

00:14:09   Like there are things you think are happening that aren't happening.

00:14:13   It's good.

00:14:13   It is very weird and very good and very high concept.

00:14:16   Um, there is a second season that had been greenlit.

00:14:21   Um, and that's all there is so far.

00:14:22   Yeah.

00:14:23   It's, they were, it was a two season or I, I mean, I don't know if Apple's going to go

00:14:26   and announce on the day of the finale that it's, you know, season two is coming in a year or

00:14:33   a year and a half or something like that.

00:14:35   But, um, because they like to, the theater, the theater of that, but it was a two season

00:14:39   pickup and I believe they've already written season two and they're going to shoot it in

00:14:44   the spring or they're in the process of writing season two.

00:14:46   I don't know.

00:14:47   But like they, they, it was always intended to be, um, a two season pickup.

00:14:52   Maybe, I mean, I assume at this point, given the ratings as long as Vince Gilligan wants

00:14:57   to do it, but certainly there's, there'll be a second season and they're shooting it in

00:15:01   the spring.

00:15:01   So we might see that same time next year.

00:15:04   It feels like one of those shows that like, I don't know how long you could do it unless

00:15:10   you had a real distinct plan for how you would do it.

00:15:14   Yeah.

00:15:15   I think there's a plan.

00:15:16   I do believe that, um, I think it's going somewhere and I think there are plenty of

00:15:20   things that could be loaded.

00:15:21   I mean, obviously everybody who's been watching it has been thinking of, but what about this?

00:15:25   What would this be?

00:15:26   What would this?

00:15:27   And I can imagine that there are going to be some things that set it off in some very different

00:15:31   directions, which would also be really interesting.

00:15:34   Yeah.

00:15:34   um, but you know, I'm sure Vince Gilligan knows how much story he's got.

00:15:38   And if he, if he, you know, if he only has two seasons of story, he'll do two seasons and

00:15:44   be done.

00:15:44   If he's, if he's got more, um, then I'm sure he'll do more.

00:15:49   Yep.

00:15:50   Because Apple's happy.

00:15:51   Yeah.

00:15:52   I mean, well, they would be, wouldn't they?

00:15:53   Yeah.

00:15:55   I think they've had a good run of buzzy shows this year.

00:15:57   Yeah.

00:15:57   Like they've had three buzzy shows this year.

00:16:01   If you think of the HBO model, the goal with HBO was always to give you something to prevent

00:16:05   churn essentially.

00:16:06   Because HBO, before the world of streaming, HBO was kind of like a streaming service in that

00:16:12   it was an add-on to your cable system.

00:16:15   It was, you had to pay an extra, however much money to get HBO and you could drop HBO.

00:16:20   And even if you were locked in and trapped in your cable company, HBO was still optional.

00:16:24   So they did have churn of subscribers.

00:16:26   So the HBO model was always on Sunday night.

00:16:29   I mean, movies, they want the headlining movies brought a lot of people in.

00:16:33   And then they were also like, we can do TV series on Sunday nights and we can have those

00:16:39   be buzzy.

00:16:40   And that increases the stickiness because you're going to have to stay to watch all of

00:16:45   The Sopranos or Sex and the City or these kind of shows that have some buzz.

00:16:51   And I think the ideal was you would have several of them across the year.

00:16:55   And that is the thing that keeps people, in this case, opening the app, finding it valuable,

00:17:02   finding the service valuable, and then maybe exploring the catalog.

00:17:05   And I feel like Apple this year got pretty close to that kind of platonic ideal of the

00:17:11   always something buzzy coming.

00:17:13   Yeah.

00:17:13   And if you really can try and back them up against each other, right?

00:17:17   I think Severance ended and Silo started, Silo ended and Studio started.

00:17:22   Because I think if you can really like, I don't know if the Studio and Silo might have overlapped

00:17:28   a bit, but I remember it was like Severance ended and then season two of Silo began immediately.

00:17:31   And it's like, if you can kind of really start squeezing those shows together.

00:17:38   Or Saro's before Severance is O.

00:17:40   That's their strategy.

00:17:41   That's their strategy.

00:17:42   You can see it.

00:17:43   That when one big ticket item goes off, they've got another one going on.

00:17:47   And that's the idea.

00:17:49   There's always something.

00:17:50   It may not all be the big zeitgeist buzzy show that some of them have been, but that is

00:17:56   what they're trying to do.

00:17:56   I actually wonder.

00:17:57   So, you know, there's that, what is it?

00:18:00   Jessica Chastain show that got delayed.

00:18:02   Yes.

00:18:03   And it still doesn't have an air date.

00:18:04   I actually, my theory is that they want to redo the press launch and they want to slot

00:18:11   it in at a time when, you know, it fits in their release schedule.

00:18:16   Maybe they're just holding it because they're cowards or something, but they may just want

00:18:22   to re-rack it and put it in there because they do seem to have very much a content strategy

00:18:26   of overlapping content.

00:18:27   And maybe that will get dropped back in overlapping some other stuff.

00:18:31   I don't know.

00:18:32   We'll see.

00:18:33   It is time to remind you about the Upgradeys.

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00:22:01   Rumor roundup time, Jason Snell.

00:22:05   Yeehaw!

00:22:06   MacRumors is reporting from a leak found on Weibo that the iPhone 18 Pro may feature

00:22:13   underscreen face ID next year.

00:22:15   Apparently, they will utilize, quote, spliced microtransparent glass to make this work.

00:22:22   So I assume that just means a really thin piece of glass, right?

00:22:25   Like that would be my expectation for what that means.

00:22:28   The invitation, the invitation, different website.

00:22:32   The information.

00:22:33   You are virtually invited to learn about Apple.

00:22:36   The information have previously reported that the iPhone 18 Pro would have no dynamic island

00:22:46   and feature a, quote, pinhole camera cutout at the upper left side of the display.

00:22:51   Mark Gurman has says that there will be a dynamic island as we know it, but it would be slimmed down.

00:22:56   So one of the things to remember here is what we're talking about.

00:23:01   What hardware is in the sensor stack that they might be trying to hide under the glass.

00:23:07   And I think the way this works, Apple doesn't want to talk about it, but looking at teardowns and all that.

00:23:13   I believe the way it works is there's the selfie camera.

00:23:16   Yep.

00:23:17   Right.

00:23:18   And then separately, there is the face ID system, which includes a dot projector of infrared dots.

00:23:26   And I think an IR flood, although I'm not 100% sure if that's still there or not.

00:23:30   But basically there's a thing that beams out infrared on your face when you do face ID.

00:23:35   And then there's a low resolution, actually, infrared camera in there that is how face ID works, separate from the selfie camera.

00:23:45   I figure there are also other sensors in there, right?

00:23:48   Like there used to be a, I mean, there still is somewhere in the phone.

00:23:51   The sensor for if you, you know, you hold your phone to your face that the screen turns off.

00:23:55   Yeah, proximity sensor.

00:23:57   Yeah, I think they're in there, although I think those may be already integrated.

00:24:00   Maybe like the sensors that they use for brightness detection are also in that part of the phone.

00:24:06   Yeah, although they might just use the camera for that.

00:24:09   I don't know.

00:24:10   Yeah.

00:24:10   I don't know.

00:24:10   Maybe, maybe.

00:24:12   Anyway, so there, if we think about those things, these reports might make more sense that the, if we're talking about face ID, they may be specifically talking about some aspects of that.

00:24:24   Like the IR emitter and the IR camera could maybe get buried, but the selfie camera can't.

00:24:30   And that's the pinhole that you have.

00:24:33   Yeah.

00:24:33   I think these can all be kind of accurate that, that you, you could put a bunch of stuff underneath, which allows the one thing that you can't yet put underneath maybe to be much smaller.

00:24:44   Yeah, the, see, there's a few things going on here as well, where there is a, there was a rumor that we've spoken about in the past that there was an underscreen camera that might have been in the folding phone.

00:24:58   So we'll see.

00:25:00   I don't, you know, I don't know.

00:25:01   I think I wouldn't want to see them get rid of the dynamic island.

00:25:05   Like I, I quite like the UI that comes from that.

00:25:09   I think they've turned that into quite a clever system, but also from talk, you know, from what you're saying, I guess, from what Mark Gurman is saying, you could get rid of some of it, make it smaller.

00:25:18   Right.

00:25:19   And that, you know, maybe it's just a camera and, you know, something else.

00:25:24   And that kind of, there's still a kind of cut out in the screen, but yeah, over time, you would hope that some of the stuff is just not going to need to, to, to be completely visible.

00:25:34   Uh, in the way that it is.

00:25:36   I mean, my gut feeling is that they're not going to get rid of the dynamic island and that it's a feature of iOS now.

00:25:41   And that, um, if you think about it, the dynamic island is a live activities feature.

00:25:47   So if there's a future phone that doesn't have the cut out at all, I think if you start a live activity, the dynamic island will appear right with your live activity running in it.

00:25:58   Even if it doesn't need to be there all the time, covering up a, a dot or a hole or a notch or whatever, like, I think that they can keep the, they can keep the dynamic island on the iPhone if they like it.

00:26:10   And I find, I think it's nice to have a live activity view floating there and have that option for your interface.

00:26:16   Yeah.

00:26:17   Yeah.

00:26:18   I mean, and as you say, like, it could even just like bubble up, right?

00:26:23   Like it doesn't, it doesn't have to be something black on the screen that it must emit from.

00:26:28   Like it can just pop up and just appear or something.

00:26:32   Yeah.

00:26:32   Just animate.

00:26:33   If I will say, if they do this, if they put the face ID under the screen, I will be even more upset if then the folding phone is touch ID.

00:26:42   Like if they have found a way to put the face ID stuff under the screen completely on the 18 pro and I'm going to play like double the price and then you have to use touch ID.

00:26:51   I'm going to be so mad because I'm, you know, I'm already angry about the possibility of me paying $2,000 for touch ID.

00:26:59   I like knowing one of the talking points of one of our episodes next September is going to be Mike gets angry about touch ID.

00:27:04   It's just not as good.

00:27:06   So like I have touch ID on my iPad mini, right?

00:27:09   That we use in the nursery and like it fails like often and it's really annoying.

00:27:17   And like, I, you know, I want face ID on that phone and it feels like I'm not going to get it.

00:27:25   Fili Pespasito at Macworld is reporting on some rumors on a new studio display that were found in a build of iOS 26.

00:27:31   This studio display would feature a 120 hertz panel, HDR.

00:27:36   So it says we could potentially be getting something at least mini LED and an A19 chip.

00:27:43   So the HDR thing.

00:27:45   Yeah, because it has an A13.

00:27:47   The current studio display has an A13 in it.

00:27:48   This will get an A19 in it.

00:27:50   It doesn't do anything other than power to display and the stuff that needs to go into that, I guess.

00:27:56   HDR and mini LED would be because the LCD panel that they have cannot do good HDR.

00:28:03   Obviously, it cannot do HDR.

00:28:05   It's not the technology for it.

00:28:06   So mini LED or OLED is what I guess would be the options on the table.

00:28:12   Feels less likely to be OLED just based on price and availability of display.

00:28:18   Yeah, I agree.

00:28:18   I think it's almost certainly not that.

00:28:21   But I mean, great.

00:28:23   Bring it on.

00:28:24   I use a studio display.

00:28:26   I think having a ProMotion HDR studio display is great.

00:28:31   I mean, I'm not sure I sit in front of my Mac thinking, oh, man, I wish I had a ProMotion HDR display here.

00:28:41   And I do have a ProMotion HDR display.

00:28:45   It's my laptop screen when I open it.

00:28:48   But unlike the iPhone, where I think I notice it a lot more on my Mac, I don't scroll through things and I'm not sad that they aren't smoother at scrolling for whatever reason.

00:29:02   So, like, personally, I'm not sure I would rush out as a studio display owner and buy the studio display, too.

00:29:09   But it's so old that it needs to be brought up to modern specs.

00:29:13   And these are modern specs.

00:29:14   Yeah.

00:29:15   I would be very excited about this because it will be interesting to me to see device compatibility and, like, what that looks like.

00:29:29   Like, can a MacBook Air drive a 120 hertz display?

00:29:32   I would expect so.

00:29:34   But, like, I just don't know how Apple think about this stuff.

00:29:36   Well, you could.

00:29:37   I mean, those are in the specs.

00:29:38   You should be able to look in the specs and see.

00:29:40   I should be able to know now, shouldn't I?

00:29:42   Yeah.

00:29:43   Right, because it's just external display specs.

00:29:46   But I'm excited about this.

00:29:47   I'm very excited about this.

00:29:49   Similarly, similarly, similarly, Felipe found, just mixed, similarly, what is, I'm off on one today.

00:29:58   Not been sleeping great, Jason, you know, for reasons of baby.

00:30:02   So, I think that's coming out in today's show.

00:30:05   Felipe found reference to HomePod Mini and AirTag updates as well.

00:30:10   The HomePod Mini will be upgraded from the Apple Watch S5 chip to the current S10.

00:30:15   Today, it was when I was reminded that the HomePod Mini runs on an Apple Watch processor.

00:30:20   I had forgotten that piece of information.

00:30:22   And that the new AirTag will apparently get an improved pairing process, enhanced precision finding, even while the device is in motion.

00:30:32   So, you'll be able to be better at finding it even if it's on the move.

00:30:35   And more, a detailed battery reporting.

00:30:38   Okay.

00:30:38   So, just better.

00:30:39   I mean, sometimes updates are not, a lot of times we judge updates by the Delta, right?

00:30:44   As tech nerds especially.

00:30:45   We're like, well, what's new?

00:30:46   Why did they put it?

00:30:47   Why did, what motivated Apple to make a new AirTag?

00:30:50   What motivated Apple to make a new studio display?

00:30:52   And I think it's fair sometimes to just say they wanted to stop using all the old parts that are running out for the old thing.

00:31:02   And it's embarrassing that that thing is still for sale.

00:31:04   And so, why don't we do a new one with modern parts?

00:31:07   And so, the AirTag, it may literally be that, right?

00:31:10   Which is, whatever, five years ago, they made their first engineering cut at an AirTag.

00:31:15   They've learned a lot and tech has improved over the years.

00:31:18   Why don't we stop making that AirTag and start making a better one?

00:31:22   Even if it isn't, again, isn't the case that if you've got an, you know, AirTags, throw them all away and get the new AirTags.

00:31:28   I don't think that's necessarily what most people will think.

00:31:31   It just means that if you go in an Apple store and buy an AirTag, it'll be better than it was.

00:31:35   That's it.

00:31:36   So, HomePod Mini is probably similar.

00:31:38   Yeah.

00:31:39   Yes.

00:31:39   I mean, the HomePod Mini is just like, we're just updating it.

00:31:42   But I think with the AirTag, I mean, Apple clearly considered privacy with the AirTag, but not to the level that privacy advocate groups wanted.

00:31:53   So, they made a bunch of changes to the software of the product, right, over time.

00:31:58   And I expect that the second generation AirTag will have been developed in a world where they were like, what if we went even stronger?

00:32:07   And there were rumors previously of you not being able to tamper with the speaker, like they were going to build a tamper-proof speaker.

00:32:18   And it's like stuff like that, right?

00:32:20   And so, that's what I expect to see in some of this stuff that is given as a customer selling thing, like precision finding or whatever.

00:32:31   Sure.

00:32:32   I mean, you talk about what's improved about it, and that can be part of your marketing.

00:32:35   But I think that sometimes we give that too much weight.

00:32:38   And it really is that, you know, they did this whatever, however many years ago they designed the original.

00:32:43   They've learned a lot since then because it's been out in the market.

00:32:46   Yep.

00:32:47   And the tech has advanced.

00:32:50   I mean, that's the thing with a lot of stuff is you've just got to – it's not like a piece of furniture.

00:32:54   It's a tech product.

00:32:55   And in five years, you have completely new processes that may make that product much better or cheaper to make or whatever.

00:33:04   And I think also you run – you talk about the processor and the studio display.

00:33:08   At some point, they're not making those processors anymore, right?

00:33:12   And so, it's like you want to get off of that processor and get to something that you've got in abundance that you're making at scale right now.

00:33:19   And then you can commit to that for the next five years.

00:33:21   So, I think that's a lot of what's going on here.

00:33:23   So, they'll make claims about the AirTag.

00:33:25   I just wanted to say sometimes we get focused on that when I think it's more like it's just a better AirTag that they're selling now.

00:33:32   And, you know, maybe there will be reasons to upgrade, but it seems to me that it's not entirely about that and it's more about we really should sell it.

00:33:42   I mean, they're still selling the Mac Pro, right?

00:33:44   Like, we should really sell a modern one of these and not just keep selling the old one.

00:33:50   I would like an AirTag with a rechargeable battery, I think.

00:33:54   You know, when they announced it and it was a watch battery, I was like, that's great.

00:33:57   I don't like that I have to keep changing these batteries and then I have to deal with the batteries.

00:34:01   I would love an AirTag that I could put on an Apple Watch charger and in 45 minutes it's back to full again.

00:34:06   Like, I think I would like that product.

00:34:08   I don't think they're going to do that, but I would like them to.

00:34:11   I think that that would make me happy because I don't like having to deal with all these batteries all the time.

00:34:16   I have a lot of AirTags in my house and, you know, I think that would be nice.

00:34:21   Tim Hardwick at MacRumors has put together a list of the MacBook models that we're expecting to see in 2026 and I thought as we're also approaching the end of the year, it would be nice to reflect and look forward as to what we may be expecting to see in 2026.

00:34:36   I'll start off with the kind of the boring, especially expected stuff.

00:34:40   M5 update to the MacBook Air and M5 Pro and M5 Max MacBook Pros.

00:34:46   We're expecting to see.

00:34:47   The M5 is a product lineup that now has begun rolling out.

00:34:51   We only have it on the, in the laptops, we only have it on the base MacBook Pro.

00:34:57   We would expect to see that start rolling out in other places.

00:35:00   That would be interesting to see what the Pro and Max chips are like there.

00:35:04   But then also we have the low cost MacBook, which as a quick refresher, 13 inch display, thin and light, LCD display, A18 Pro chip, USB-C, maybe some colors.

00:35:16   That is the kind of amalgamation of the rumors.

00:35:19   Right.

00:35:19   Performance similar to an M1 MacBook Air, maybe a little bit better than that, but using more modern parts and, you know, shape to be determined.

00:35:30   I'm still thinking it's going to look a lot like the M1 MacBook Air, but we'll see.

00:35:34   Yeah.

00:35:34   I mean, I think that is the story for me of this product is how much does it cost and what does it look like?

00:35:41   Like those are the things that I'm really interested in.

00:35:43   The other details, they are interesting, but I feel like I understand them.

00:35:49   You know, like the first time I heard MacBook powered by an iPhone processor, I was like, oh, I don't know about that.

00:35:55   But the A18 Pro, I know, can handle it.

00:35:57   Right.

00:35:57   Like at this point.

00:35:58   So that's not a concern anymore.

00:36:00   But like, you know, when you hear it at first, you're like, that doesn't sound right.

00:36:04   But I guess that was how we also felt about Apple Silicon in general.

00:36:08   Yes, it is.

00:36:10   Very similar feeling.

00:36:10   Yeah.

00:36:11   It's like, what about Macs powered by iPad chips?

00:36:13   But hang on a minute.

00:36:14   How are they going to run macOS?

00:36:15   Turns out really good.

00:36:17   So, you know, the idea of it going to the iPhone chip, especially at this point, as you say, like, I guess you would know this.

00:36:27   The A18 Pro is more powerful than an M1 by quite a margin, right?

00:36:30   Well, I did the research on that and it's more powerful.

00:36:36   What is it?

00:36:37   More powerful in single processor because it's, I did charts at Six Colors about this.

00:36:44   It's more powerful at single processor because it's using a modern core, but it's, it's, it's just about the same in multiprocessor because you're going from an M chip with its cores to an A chip with its cores, but like perfectly respectable.

00:37:00   And in graphics, I think it was very similar, um, perfectly respectable, uh, difference.

00:37:06   So definitely, that's why I keep saying sort of like, think of it as an M1 profile, um, even if the truth is it's so yeah, yeah, here, here are the numbers.

00:37:17   So just using the geek bench numbers as a rule of thumb, um, A18 Pro is, uh, in single core is faster than the M3, right?

00:37:27   Because it's using a modern, more modern core than that in multi-core.

00:37:32   It's about as fast as the MacBook Air was, um, at, in its, you know, eight core existence.

00:37:41   It's, it's about the same because although I think it has fewer cores in the, in the A18 Pro, they're also better cores.

00:37:48   So that makes that that way.

00:37:50   And then in terms of graphics, again, it's better than the M1, but not as good as the M2.

00:37:56   So it's, it's, I would say it is M1 class for everything except individual, you know, single core performance.

00:38:03   But a lot of stuff is just, if you're doing one thing, a lot of stuff is just single core performance and that will make it feel snappy enough.

00:38:11   And the M1 Air feels pretty good.

00:38:14   So I think it will not be a problem, but we'll see.

00:38:17   And then the M6 MacBook Pro is also expected to launch either towards the end of 2026 or early 2027.

00:38:27   So this will feature, and the M6 chip generation, um, I would expect this will probably be the Pro model is what we would see here because of everything else in this, uh, computer.

00:38:41   So I wouldn't expect them to launch the M6 base with this, um, the M6 line is a new TSMC process, which will be two nanometers.

00:38:51   Um, and it incorporates all of the, the, the different components more closely together.

00:38:56   So we could see some performance boosts there.

00:38:59   Um, the big win for this device would be a, or the big feature is a touchscreen OLED display, uh, thinner and lighter.

00:39:07   So they're going to redesign it.

00:39:09   Um, apparently Apple are looking to make it thinner and lighter without compromising on battery and they will get gains from the display because the OLED display will use less power.

00:39:18   They will get battery, um, uh, improvements there.

00:39:21   And maybe they'll make some gains with the M6.

00:39:23   I don't know.

00:39:24   Um, we'll be looking at a hole punch camera instead of a notch, kind of like a small dynamic island is more what they're looking to do.

00:39:30   Um, because of these advancements, it'll be a little bit more expensive.

00:39:34   Yeah, I think so.

00:39:36   So, and German said it might slip into early 2027, although there, there's definitely precedent for it, for them shipping to MacBook Pros in the same year.

00:39:42   Cause they already did that.

00:39:43   They, they did that a few years ago, so they could do it again if they want to.

00:39:47   But the big thing is this is a new generation of MacBook Pro, um, so the big step forward where they change the, the case and they change the display and all of those things and not just kind of the internals.

00:39:59   So, um, and yes, I imagine it will only be the high end models.

00:40:02   I, I don't imagine, even if there is an M6 low end MacBook Pro, I imagine it will look just like the M5 low end MacBook Pro.

00:40:12   I don't think it's going to get all of these improvements because they're going to hold it down on price.

00:40:16   And then it'll get these improvements in, you know, M7 or M probably M8.

00:40:21   Like, I feel like Apple is, likes to withhold this on that low end model because, you know, they're trying to keep the price down on that.

00:40:30   And then, and that's the point of that product.

00:40:32   And then eventually it will slowly catch up.

00:40:34   So this will be, this will be a big step forward.

00:40:37   Yeah.

00:40:37   This might be kind of like what they did when they did the redesign, the Apple Silicon redesign, right?

00:40:43   Where we had the, what was the touch bar model, right?

00:40:47   Still kicking around at the, at the base of the MacBook Pro.

00:40:52   Exactly.

00:40:52   It's exactly that, that the, you know, it lags the, the bottom configuration of MacBook Pro Apple has decided is important.

00:41:00   Even though it's not always that great.

00:41:04   Right now it is great.

00:41:05   Right now it's come all the way back up where, in fact, it exists on a new chip that the higher end models don't even have yet.

00:41:11   But when we reset the clock, when there's a brand new design, I don't think it'll get it.

00:41:19   It'll hang back for a while.

00:41:20   And with the two in a year, I mean, it seems like realistically the M5 Pro and M5 Max have gotten delayed a little bit, right?

00:41:27   Like that did not happen in 25.

00:41:30   And so, you know, we may see early 25 for these and then late 26 for this MacBook Pro, which was maybe always expected to be a 2026 product.

00:41:38   Early 25 for the M5 and we already are in 25.

00:41:43   So it'd be early 26 and late 26.

00:41:45   I want to get our years right here.

00:41:47   Thank you so much.

00:41:48   What year is it?

00:41:49   Because we're right at the end of 25.

00:41:51   I haven't worked it out.

00:41:52   I'm still writing 2022 on my chest.

00:41:54   This is what I'm saying is that it's so weird that we're talking about this MacBook Pro and I have to say it may be 27, right?

00:42:01   It may be early 27 and not late 26.

00:42:03   And I don't know how much of that is the design and how much of that is the pace of Apple Silicon.

00:42:07   And like, I don't know whether it was always the plan to ship the M5 Pro and Max chips in the spring or whether they wanted them in the fall and they weren't really ready.

00:42:19   And so those products have been delayed.

00:42:21   I don't know which one of those is true.

00:42:24   I suspect that only Johnny Scrooge knows for sure.

00:42:27   But in any event, yeah.

00:42:31   So we might get them both in the same year.

00:42:33   That's going to be a big upgrade for a lot of people to drive a lot of MacBook Pro upgrades because it'll have a bunch of new, you know, it looks different.

00:42:41   It has some new hardware features on the outside.

00:42:44   It's got OLED touchscreen.

00:42:46   Like that will be a big leap.

00:42:48   And then they'll iterate on that for, you know, whatever, three or four years.

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00:43:58   They will go through the, I expect, pretty laborious process of trying to get your data removed.

00:44:03   And then they make it happen for you.

00:44:05   They're out there in your corner.

00:44:06   They're doing the good work.

00:44:08   Take control of your data and keep your private life private by signing up for DeleteMe with a special offer for listeners of this show.

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00:44:34   One last time, that is joindeliteme.com slash upgrade20 with the code upgrade20.

00:44:39   Our thanks to DeleteMe for their support of this show and Relay.

00:44:43   It's time for the details, Jason Snow.

00:44:48   Ooh.

00:44:48   Because this isn't really a beta, but we're going to do it anyway.

00:44:52   26.2 is out.

00:44:54   This comes with a bunch of different changes across the, well, it's 26, it's all the .2s, right?

00:45:01   So it's 26.2 on iOS, iPadOS, I guess, watchOS and macOS as well.

00:45:08   Yeah, everybody.

00:45:09   I want to start by talking about iPadOS because iPadOS has had to continue to see more big change.

00:45:15   So in 26.1, we got slide over, but now split view has returned.

00:45:20   So you can drag apps from the dock and spotlight onto each half of the display.

00:45:25   It will fill that half.

00:45:26   You can also drag windows to each side and it will do the same.

00:45:30   And then you have kind of infinite resizing of those two split apps.

00:45:34   Also, slide over gets, basically it's dock improvements.

00:45:37   Because in addition to making it easy to drag out two things and make the equivalent of split view, you can drag out of the dock and make a slide over.

00:45:47   And then for people who like to switch apps in slide over, you can drag out of the dock onto your slide over and it'll switch to that app.

00:45:55   So you can be like running notes and want to put mail and slide over and you just drag the mail icon out of the dock and drop it on where the notes app is running and slide over and it switches to mail.

00:46:06   So you're getting a bunch of stuff.

00:46:08   If you liked dragging things out of the dock to do multitasking on the iPad, they put that back.

00:46:14   And I've seen people say, you know, I wonder if they're reacting to feedback and all of that.

00:46:19   And I'm sure there's some aspect of that, but I also kind of wonder if this was just, we can't do that for people.

00:46:25   0.0 and we'll get to this in 0.1 and we'll get to this in 0.2, that they just couldn't have it all there.

00:46:30   But regardless, they put a bunch of that stuff back and that's great.

00:46:33   So, you know, we've come to here to the end of the year and we have a very complex system, not complicated, but complex system on iPadOS now.

00:46:45   Like, yeah, there are a lot of ways to manage your windows now, which I think is very good.

00:46:50   I think that they've added a good level of flexibility into the system.

00:46:55   I like having all of the options available to me.

00:46:58   I would say that this addition has kind of made it easier to manage windows in general.

00:47:05   Like, it kind of felt like you had to, you know, you drag something out of the dock before.

00:47:10   You had to, like, I would see people do this.

00:47:12   You flick it over to one side with a level of aggression that didn't make sense to me.

00:47:16   But now, kind of wherever you're dragging it, it makes a square in the shape, essentially, like a rough shape of what the window is going to look like.

00:47:25   And I like that.

00:47:26   It'll tell you whether it's going to snap it to half or whether it's just going to put a window on the screen, depending on the feedback you get.

00:47:33   So, if you're running in horizontal mode, in landscape mode, you'll see it change from a wide rectangle, which is like a window, and then you kind of move over to the left or the right far enough.

00:47:46   And it goes to, like, a more square because it's going to be that shape.

00:47:51   It's subtle, but, like, it's there.

00:47:53   And so, if you use it regularly, you'll know, oh, this is where I drop it, and now it'll go straight into that left half.

00:48:00   It's like a left half tile.

00:48:02   So, with a couple gestures, you can get two apps split viewed.

00:48:05   Have you been using this yourself other than, like, just for testing?

00:48:08   Like, have you been using it much?

00:48:10   I use the multi-window features, honestly.

00:48:13   I have, I used old slide over really seldomly.

00:48:17   Every now and then, I would be doing something on the iPad, and I'd be like, you know what I should do is put this in slide over so I can just kind of refer to it.

00:48:26   But mostly, I've just been using the windows as they are.

00:48:29   And I was never a big split view user either.

00:48:33   I kind of like my windows where I want them.

00:48:35   I mean, that makes, that's the Mac user in me, right?

00:48:38   I don't tile on the Mac either.

00:48:40   I just generally let the windows be where I want them to be, and whatever layers I want them to be, and whatever place on the display I want them.

00:48:49   So, I haven't used these features other than for testing purposes.

00:48:54   Although, I will say, dragging things out of the dock is a thing I like to do with iPad multitasking.

00:49:00   So, I like that aspect of it.

00:49:02   Did they mess up your keyboard shortcuts again, by the way?

00:49:04   Well, they messed them up, but didn't put them back.

00:49:08   So, this happened during the 0.2 beta cycle.

00:49:11   They made some changes to the way that some of the keyboard shortcuts work.

00:49:15   Like, if you're a stage manager user like me, somebody asked, by the way, that they want to hear about how I use stage manager.

00:49:22   At some point next year, I will do a segment on the show where I talk about how and why I use stage manager on my devices.

00:49:30   I think people don't understand it.

00:49:32   So, I do want to talk about that, but I want to kind of really map it out and talk about it properly and what I like about the system.

00:49:39   But, like, for example now, if you press Command-W to close a window, it just sends it over to the stage view.

00:49:50   Like, it doesn't actually close it, which I find a very – that just feels like a bug.

00:49:54   But the one that I don't like is that Command-H used to take you home.

00:50:00   It now hides your window.

00:50:02   And Globe-H takes you home.

00:50:05   That just feels wrong to me.

00:50:08   I think hide as a command on iPadOS just doesn't need to be there because Command-W is fine.

00:50:14   Like, it just – the apps don't close.

00:50:16   You're just hiding it.

00:50:17   Like, where is it going, right?

00:50:19   Otherwise, like, just Command-W will do the job.

00:50:22   I mean, they're doing it because that's what it is on the Mac, and they kind of want these to be the same in both environments, I think, is why.

00:50:29   But they don't work the same – you know what?

00:50:31   I know what you said, but they don't work the same way.

00:50:33   Because my issue is Globe isn't used for any of the other windowing things in this way.

00:50:43   Like, it's not Globe-W to close a window or whatever.

00:50:46   I'm constantly pressing Command-H, which I had internalized, and it's just hiding it where previously it used to take me to the home screen.

00:50:53   And it has done that for years.

00:50:54   I don't know exactly.

00:50:56   I'm going to have to look.

00:50:56   And I'm not using Stage Manager, so the behavior may be different.

00:50:59   But the way I would expect, as a Mac user, for it to work on iPad is, if I do Command-H, the window goes away.

00:51:07   But either it's retrievable somewhere, or if I open that app again, the window comes back where it was.

00:51:14   And Command-W, the app closes, essentially.

00:51:20   Or that window closes, and if there are no other windows open, then it's gone.

00:51:23   And then if I bring that back, it's like I'm launching the app, and that window doesn't come back unless – it behaves like an iPad app.

00:51:29   It comes back to what other state is the launch state.

00:51:32   Because in window management, the difference on the Mac anyway between Command-H and Command-W is Command-H is, I don't want to see you right now, but when I bring you back, you come back right where you were.

00:51:44   And Command-W is you're gone, right?

00:51:47   And I don't care, you can exit that state.

00:51:49   So if you're in a text editor and you've got a file open, and you do Command-W, the file is not open anymore.

00:51:55   When you open the app again, it's going to say, let's open a file.

00:51:59   Versus Command-H, which is like, stay right there.

00:52:04   But I don't want to see you, but when I come back, I want you right where I had you.

00:52:09   And I don't know if it does that or not.

00:52:11   I could say, I don't know about the window in mobile, but with Stage Manager, it doesn't work like that.

00:52:17   They're just the same, I think.

00:52:18   They're just the same.

00:52:19   With Stage Manager, if you then say select, say Slack, I've said Command-H on Slack, it will then just open it in a new stage again.

00:52:30   Because I can see that what they've actually done is minimize it to the stage view, which just is not at all either of the things that you're looking to do in that scenario.

00:52:40   And they also added Command-Q, which is fascinating to me.

00:52:45   Like, there was a quick command.

00:52:47   You know, honestly, I think that's all about Mac user muscle memory.

00:52:52   That, like, if Command-Q is what you do when you're done with your work, then maybe it should just say, okay, I know what you want here.

00:53:00   I'm going to make this app go away.

00:53:02   And I would imagine that unless you have multiple windows open, Command-Q in the same app, Command-Q and Command-W are identical, and Command-H also may be identical, right?

00:53:14   They may all do the same things, or they may be subtly different.

00:53:17   I'm not sure, but...

00:53:20   I would just like a Command-based keyboard shortcut to take me to the home screen.

00:53:27   Put it on any letter.

00:53:28   Because it's, like, it's very strange, because all of the other windowing shortcuts are launched...

00:53:35   Well, not all, but most of these ones, they're in the Command.

00:53:38   Like, you're starting with Command, not Globe.

00:53:41   And so, like, I'm used to doing the window management stuff with Command.

00:53:44   I don't know.

00:53:46   I guess if you're doing...

00:53:47   Because I don't use the keyboard to do the moving around.

00:53:51   I know that some of that is on the Globe key, but I'm not doing that.

00:53:54   That is on the Globe key as well.

00:53:55   Like, I'm moving them around with my cursor, because, like, that just makes the most sense to me.

00:54:00   I think our discussion here shows you the challenges that Apple is trying to work through.

00:54:05   And I think they definitely feel pressure from people who are thinking of the iPad desktop environment, essentially, as similar to the Mac desktop environment.

00:54:13   And so, they kind of want it to behave the same way, or at least seem more familiar.

00:54:17   And if you're...

00:54:18   Especially if you're going back and forth, having the keyboard shortcuts kind of behave the same way is preferable to having them be different.

00:54:27   Like, that's why the Command Q would be there at all, because that concept is sort of pointless.

00:54:31   And I don't think it's, like, force quitting the app.

00:54:34   I think it's just closing it like you would if you switched apps in full screen mode, right?

00:54:39   I think it's just going away.

00:54:40   And then it will come back.

00:54:42   But you've got the added complexity of Stage Manager and the whole concept of, like, what is this thing?

00:54:48   What do we mean when we say we're closing or hiding an app?

00:54:51   Does that mean it goes into the Stage Manager view?

00:54:54   Does that mean it...

00:54:55   And conceptually, the problem is, conceptually, that's a little different than it is on the Mac.

00:55:00   So, I think they're still working through it.

00:55:03   So, I think there's maybe some hope that some of your complaints might lead or might be realized in the future, just because this seems like it's still in flux.

00:55:13   Absolutely.

00:55:13   And one of the most interesting things to me, for obvious reasons, is the changes in the podcast app in 26.2.

00:55:21   So, there's kind of two key areas that they're changing, but both are being enabled by the transcripts that Apple Podcasts make.

00:55:31   So, one is AI-generated chapters for podcasts that do not support them.

00:55:38   So, Apple is encouraging people to add chapters via the many ways in which you can do it, via MP3 metadata, which is what we do for this show.

00:55:48   Or you can put them in the RSS feed, in text, or in the description, in text, like you put time codes or whatever.

00:55:54   Sort of like YouTube.

00:55:55   Yeah, like YouTube chapters.

00:55:56   They're encouraging that people do this.

00:56:00   For those that don't, they are creating their own chapters based on the topics.

00:56:08   And what is also interesting, I was kind of poking around, you can tell what Apple thinks is a chapter, even for shows like ours.

00:56:16   Because the transcripts that Apple makes, they break up with their own headings.

00:56:22   Yeah, they have subheads for the transcripts.

00:56:25   So, like, for example, last week's Snell Talk discussion in Apple Podcasts' transcript of the episode says, curling media question.

00:56:35   And so that, if we did not provide our own transcripts, that is what the chapter would have been.

00:56:42   Sorry, our own chapters.

00:56:44   Yes, the transcripts would have created that chapter.

00:56:46   And that's what the chapter would have looked like.

00:56:47   So, I have some podcasts that I listen to that don't have chapters in them, which is upsetting to me.

00:56:53   Because some of them are tech-focused podcasts, like the Vergecast, for example.

00:56:57   But in Apple Podcasts, now they do.

00:56:59   And one of the reasons that a lot of podcasts don't is because they use dynamic ad insertion.

00:57:04   That is what the Vergecast does.

00:57:05   And that is the reason that they do not have chapters.

00:57:08   They could add some basic ones, even if they're just using, like, text timecodes or whatever in the description.

00:57:15   But they're not doing that, probably for some CMS reason, because there are stacks and stacks of issues that can result in people doing things in interesting ways.

00:57:23   But this is, like, part one of it.

00:57:25   And I think this is great.

00:57:26   Of course, this is only for shows that are public, right?

00:57:31   So, if you listen to a show, like a membership show, like, so I, again, I pay for the Verge, so I get the ad-free version of the Verge.

00:57:41   If I listened to that feed in Apple Podcasts, I would be able to get the transcripts, but in Overcast, I can't, you know.

00:57:48   But if there's a membership show like ours, they won't make the transcripts for them.

00:57:53   So, you're not going to get those automatic chapters, because the transcripts are only available in shows that are publicly available.

00:58:01   And my frustration is, there is an RSS standard that Apple uses.

00:58:05   If you want to supply your own transcript, instead of having Apple do it, you can actually put in the RSS feed.

00:58:10   Here is the VTT file, which is a subtitles file that we're going to use as the transcript for this episode, and it's timecoded and all of that.

00:58:19   You can supply that in the RSS feed.

00:58:23   And frustratingly, even though Apple won't transcribe a private podcast, a member edition, and we can do a transcript, and we could put it in the RSS feed, Apple Podcasts won't show it, which frustrates me a lot.

00:58:41   Pocket Casts, I think, does, because I do it for the Incomparable Special Edition for members.

00:58:47   I generate a transcript file embedded in the RSS, and I think Pocket Casts uses it.

00:58:52   But that's the thing that frustrates me is like, okay, you don't have to transcribe my member podcast.

00:58:58   You could probably figure out that it's identical across all these different subscribers and do that.

00:59:03   But if you don't want to do it, I did it, maybe let my people see it, but they don't do that.

00:59:10   So that's frustrating.

00:59:12   But then with the transcripts, so you've got the chapters, also with the transcripts, they're starting to pick out things that you mention and put links to those things.

00:59:22   So the key one is if you mention another podcast in your show, in line with the transcript, they will highlight the podcast that is mentioned, which I think is awesome.

00:59:35   And then you can just press a button to go to the show or press the plus and you can follow the show.

00:59:41   So, for example, in last week's episode, we mentioned the rest is history, and the show was in the transcript.

00:59:50   It's like right there at the moment that we mention it in the chapter where we're talking about them winning the podcast of the year, which the Apple transcript named that one Apple of the Year, which is hilarious.

01:00:00   Doing a great job.

01:00:01   Apple of the Year.

01:00:02   Congratulations to Tom and Dominic.

01:00:05   You're the Apple of the Year.

01:00:06   Apple of the Year.

01:00:07   And, you know, AI is doing its thing, I guess.

01:00:10   But I think this is great.

01:00:12   And then also they're in line, but also on the episode page, it mentions there's like a section like things mentioned in this episode.

01:00:18   And there's other podcasts that are mentioned in the show will get added in there as well.

01:00:23   So I think this is a really great discovery thing that they're using.

01:00:28   And I think it's incredibly clever, however on earth they're doing this, that I can just say the rest is history.

01:00:35   And it just puts that link right there.

01:00:38   That is very impressive.

01:00:40   You did it.

01:00:41   And I've done it again.

01:00:42   This is, well, I guess we have to see.

01:00:44   So the talk show with John Gruber is also a podcast that's available.

01:00:48   As is Cortex and Connected and Mac Power.

01:00:51   I can just keep doing this.

01:00:53   Yeah.

01:00:53   Be sure to listen to The Incomparable Mothership available where you get your podcasts.

01:00:58   I'm going to have to check now to see what the transcript looks like.

01:01:01   Who knows what we're just, we're hacking Apple Podcasts now.

01:01:04   We're breaking through.

01:01:05   We're going to be in the matrix.

01:01:06   Apple Podcasts.

01:01:07   It's not going to work anymore.

01:01:08   If nobody gets their shows tomorrow, now we know why.

01:01:10   Uh-huh.

01:01:11   There is also going to be some level of automatic linking via the transcripts that you can...

01:01:19   This is fascinating to me because I've yet to see this work yet.

01:01:23   But apparently, if you mention stuff that is on Apple's services, so Apple News, Apple TV, that kind of stuff.

01:01:32   So when we mentioned Pluribus earlier, theoretically.

01:01:35   It should show up.

01:01:37   I don't think it's going to show up in line, but it should show up at the bottom.

01:01:40   I checked the TV draft episode.

01:01:43   I was like, well, if it's going to be in there, it's going to be, you know, in there.

01:01:47   Didn't pick out any of them.

01:01:49   And it is possible, if you go into the Apple Podcasts backend, you can manually link these things.

01:01:55   And you can even put timestamps to them, I think.

01:01:57   So you can go in and add them, and so things that you've mentioned will show up.

01:02:01   But I have yet to see an example of it being in the transcript or seemingly based upon the conversation.

01:02:08   It may not be turned on.

01:02:10   I do wonder, for all of these things, if one of the things that's going on here is it's trying to judge if it's a substantial mention.

01:02:17   Uh-huh.

01:02:18   Right?

01:02:19   Yeah.

01:02:19   And so for the podcast, we talked about the rest is history for a while.

01:02:23   Yes.

01:02:23   You talked about the subject and mentioned upgrade on Connected.

01:02:27   And there's an upgrade link in there.

01:02:29   So I wonder if, you know, right, if we spam it like we did a few minutes ago, if it's like, well, yeah, but those are all just in passing.

01:02:36   And they're not really about this.

01:02:37   And I'm not going to put the links in.

01:02:38   Or there are too many of them or whatever.

01:02:40   There are probably a lot of rules like that that they're trying to use.

01:02:43   But we spent a lot of time talking about those Apple TV shows, right?

01:02:47   And they're not.

01:02:48   Yes.

01:02:48   They don't link or even reference them in there.

01:02:51   It may not be turned on yet for that or wasn't when they transcribed that episode.

01:02:56   I don't know.

01:02:57   Who knows?

01:02:58   I think this is very interesting.

01:03:01   And I think it's showing the potential power that you have available to you once you have a tech complete transcript and an understanding of what is in the transcript to do stuff with it.

01:03:18   I think this is very, very clever.

01:03:20   So I will say I've just gone back to the Apple TV draft episode and it has pulled out the podcasts that we mentioned in the episode downstream.

01:03:30   The rest is history and Cortex, but none of the TV shows.

01:03:33   Yeah.

01:03:34   Yeah.

01:03:35   But I think it's their intent to do that, but they're obviously not doing it or not doing it for all podcasts yet.

01:03:40   Yeah.

01:03:40   And that's fine.

01:03:41   You're right.

01:03:42   This is a consequence of them turning on this feature where they are going and transcribing every, you know, popular or semi-popular and ultimately every podcast.

01:03:52   They're throwing lots of cloud CPU time at a transcription engine to build these things out and put them in their database.

01:03:59   The nice thing is since they, since they know what the podcast is, they transcribe it once and then everybody gets it right.

01:04:06   Like everybody who subscribes to the rest is history gets the one transcript of that episode and the same for us.

01:04:11   And they do some ad sensing stuff, which is really amazing for, um, things that have dynamic ads in them.

01:04:16   They can kind of map where the content is so that like, if you get a different ad and then they come back to the host, the transcript picks up where the host speaks.

01:04:27   Even if it's 30 seconds later on your version than on your neighbor's version.

01:04:32   So that's really impressive.

01:04:34   But, um, a while ago, it might've been a WWDC or even longer.

01:04:38   I was talking to somebody who was involved with Apple podcasts and this, you know, they're not talking about future features, but the implication I got from that conversation about the transcripts was that Apple was viewing the transcripts as a feature that unlocks a lot of other features.

01:04:57   Because now they kind of understand the content of the podcast, and this is a great example of them trying to do that.

01:05:04   We spoke about this before, and I've had some conversations with people inside of Apple about some of the clever stuff that they're doing.

01:05:10   Like how they're using, like their model is trying to make decisions about the transcript based on information that it can glean.

01:05:21   Like, for example, it always puts my name as M-Y-K-E when I say it.

01:05:27   And something I find fascinating, I don't know how they've done this, but so that, you know, I shared some images of you just so you could see what I was looking at.

01:05:35   So in last week's episode of Connected, I said the line, I had to immerse myself in all of this news for Upgrade this week.

01:05:44   It capitalized the U and put the link in.

01:05:47   Now, like, how does that transcript system know what I'm talking about?

01:05:55   Now, there are obvious ways that it can know, and they're clearly doing some of that work to link me to these two shows that when I say Upgrade on Connected, I am probably referencing this show.

01:06:10   And like, I'm sure that they have to do more work to be like, because obviously I can say the word Upgrade and I'm not talking about this show.

01:06:16   So I think that that is really quite impressive what they're managing to do.

01:06:21   Yeah, there's some sophisticated context being put in here, I suspect.

01:06:26   Yeah, my gut feeling when I first saw that it gets Mike Hurley right almost all the time.

01:06:32   Although when I say goodbye to you at the end of the show, Jamie pointed out that it almost always transcribes as my Curley.

01:06:39   In Apple Podcasts?

01:06:41   No, in our editor, in our Riverside editor, which also does a transcript.

01:06:46   Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:06:47   It says goodbye Mike Hurley.

01:06:48   Goodbye Mike Hurley.

01:06:49   And MYKE instead of MIKE.

01:06:52   But the thing is, they're probably, when they run the transcript, they're probably passing a load of metadata, including the description of the show, which includes our names in it.

01:07:00   Yep.

01:07:00   The RSS feed includes our names as well.

01:07:03   They have a thing that they do where they're like people in Apple Podcasts, where there's like, they're identifying who hosts are, which probably also allows them to cross-reference with other shows and put that in there.

01:07:14   And there might even be a bio block where it's like, Mike Hurley is also the host of Connected or whatever, or also the host of Upgrade.

01:07:21   But whatever they're doing, it's super clever.

01:07:23   They are getting that context and then running the transcript and the chapter engine and the extraction of media for links.

01:07:33   And that's, they got to be doing all of that because it's, you're right.

01:07:37   Otherwise, that context wouldn't make any sense.

01:07:39   Because you can't, you can't use the word upgrade on a random podcast to talk about a software upgrade and have it linked to the Upgrade podcast.

01:07:47   It doesn't make sense, right?

01:07:48   It would be nice though.

01:07:49   So they have to know.

01:07:49   If that happened.

01:07:50   It would be great.

01:07:51   It would be great.

01:07:52   But then there's going to be a lot of podcasts with really common words.

01:07:55   So let's not do that.

01:07:59   Don't spam the podcast.

01:08:00   Like many relay shows.

01:08:02   So if that is the case, we're really going to benefit from this.

01:08:05   It's great.

01:08:06   It's awesome.

01:08:06   Well, we'll talk about this more downstream.

01:08:10   I love it.

01:08:11   I love it.

01:08:11   I love it.

01:08:12   I love it.

01:08:12   This episode is brought to you by Gusto.

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01:09:47   A thanks to Gusto for their support of this show and all of Relay.

01:09:53   We had an ask upgrade question that I thought would actually fit quite nicely in this discussion.

01:09:57   So Logan wrote in and said, considering the advancements in 26.2 in the podcast app, it got me thinking, why hasn't Apple focused on video podcasts?

01:10:05   YouTube and Spotify are eating their lunch on this.

01:10:08   While it technically supports video, no major podcast is releasing through Apple podcasts.

01:10:13   Will Apple address this?

01:10:16   I want to know what you think.

01:10:17   I think this is a great question and I think maybe video podcasts doesn't fit Apple's strategy.

01:10:27   Yeah, the irony is that Apple podcasts has supported video podcasts since the beginning.

01:10:30   But what Spotify has done, for people who don't know, I mean, we post our podcast to YouTube, right?

01:10:35   Everybody's posting their podcast to YouTube.

01:10:36   That's fine.

01:10:37   We do a video version.

01:10:38   It goes to YouTube.

01:10:39   Spotify has an interesting thing where they allow you to overlay your video version.

01:10:45   on your audio version.

01:10:47   But it's weird.

01:10:49   And this is why we don't do it.

01:10:51   Because Spotify expects that the audio that goes with your video version is essentially identical to your audio version.

01:11:03   So if we were to upload upgrade in video format to Spotify, you wouldn't get the audio edit that is carefully being done by Jim Metzendorf.

01:11:14   If you would be getting the audio from the video edit that Jamie is doing, which is more cheap, you know, it's not on Jamie.

01:11:22   It is.

01:11:23   Hi, Jamie.

01:11:24   We are more focused on just having it be kind of expediently make sure the cuts happen where the cuts happen.

01:11:31   But like she's not and we don't expect her to do like dialogue trimming, take out this little bit of crosstalk.

01:11:38   Like she might do a little of that.

01:11:39   The audio doesn't sound as good either.

01:11:41   And that is just a function of the system that we're using.

01:11:43   Because it's coming from Riverside, which does a decent job considering, but it's not our local recordings that Jim Metzendorf is using.

01:11:50   Which are completely uncompressed audio.

01:11:52   So right now the way it works on Spotify, just so people understand this, if we uploaded upgrade to Spotify, you wouldn't hear, even if you're not using video, you wouldn't hear our audio edit.

01:12:03   You would hear our video edit, which we are not going to do to the level of our audio edit because we are primarily an audio podcast.

01:12:14   So Spotify basically says, if you do video, you're a video podcast and we'll just use the audio of your video.

01:12:19   And that's why we don't do it.

01:12:21   I think Spotify have made what I consider to be a perfectly fair assumption.

01:12:25   Like, I think if you're producing video, you're probably just pulling the audio out of the edit and you're publishing that audio.

01:12:33   The reason they do this is because they have an incredible feature where you can seamlessly switch between the audio and the video at any time.

01:12:44   You toggle.

01:12:45   Which I think is very cool.

01:12:45   You could toggle video on and off.

01:12:47   Very cool.

01:12:48   But it does require this.

01:12:50   If you're listening to a show and then someone mentions something, you can just jump back 10 seconds, turn the video on, see what they said, and then just turn it off again.

01:12:57   Which I think is a very cool thing.

01:12:58   But yes, it doesn't work for shows that produce in a way that is considered to be odd today.

01:13:04   Genuinely, I would imagine you could say this to an engineer at Spotify and they were like, never even considered it.

01:13:10   Because it's just not how their partners are producing their shows.

01:13:14   Because they want that feature.

01:13:16   And if we uploaded our video and we didn't have that feature, you couldn't toggle back and forth because the audio wouldn't track because it would be off because the edits are different.

01:13:23   We tried it on an episode.

01:13:24   That's how we know this.

01:13:25   Like, I recommended we do it and it was bad.

01:13:28   I know some people who edit.

01:13:30   Erica, our podcast editor for a bunch of stuff on The Incomparable.

01:13:33   Erica edits in a video editor.

01:13:35   Mm-hmm.

01:13:35   In whatever Sony's video editor is called.

01:13:39   Vegas.

01:13:42   And she does Total Party Kill, which is great because it's got video with it.

01:13:47   So she does her audio edit with the video edit.

01:13:49   Wow.

01:13:49   But that is what would be required.

01:13:51   Yeah.

01:13:51   Which means that if we really wanted to go down that path with Spotify, we would have to get an editor who is comfortable editing audio and video simultaneously.

01:14:01   It would take longer.

01:14:02   It would be more expensive.

01:14:04   We'd probably need to do a bunch of, like, download the video files, which would take longer.

01:14:09   The show would get out later.

01:14:11   And we're not willing to do that.

01:14:12   So, okay.

01:14:14   So Apple now.

01:14:15   What does Apple do?

01:14:16   Mm-hmm.

01:14:16   Mike, you are a podcast expert, so I want to hear what you say.

01:14:21   My gut feeling is that Logan is right and that Apple has kind of fallen asleep at the switch.

01:14:27   And that there is this big trend toward having podcasts with video versions, and they're just kind of not there.

01:14:33   And I get why podcast app is different than YouTube, but Spotify shows that you can also say, actually, podcast and video are now kind of the same for some podcasts.

01:14:48   And maybe we should just let you switch on the video if we want to, and that Apple is kind of leaving a trend in podcasting behind by ignoring it.

01:14:57   What do you think?

01:14:58   So, with an asterisk, Apple don't host podcasts.

01:15:02   And I think that is the key difference.

01:15:04   The asterisk is if you do a membership through Apple Podcasts, they do host the member version.

01:15:12   You can upload the files there.

01:15:14   Yeah.

01:15:14   So, let's say this.

01:15:15   So, we post our podcast on YouTube.

01:15:17   YouTube serves it.

01:15:18   We don't have to pay bandwidth charges for every video view on YouTube.

01:15:21   It's free.

01:15:22   Yeah.

01:15:22   Spotify consumes your content and resurves it.

01:15:28   Well, but for video, you have to upload it manually, too.

01:15:32   Yeah.

01:15:33   You have to upload that video, and then it's served by Spotify.

01:15:36   And they'll do whatever they need to do to compress it and alter it dynamically or whatever it needs to do.

01:15:43   Apple doesn't serve anything but those member podcasts.

01:15:45   So, yes, that would be number one, which would be...

01:15:47   This is, for me, the reason they are not in this business is because they are not willing to do the hosting.

01:15:54   To host the video.

01:15:55   It has always, you know, I think that there is part of this is that they do decide to kind of stay out of it.

01:16:03   Part of it is they just, I don't think, could get the internal sign-off to be able to turn themselves into a hosting platform.

01:16:12   Because it's going to cost them a lot of money.

01:16:14   A lot of money.

01:16:14   Yeah.

01:16:15   And it doesn't make sense for their business in the way that it makes sense for YouTube and Spotify's business.

01:16:21   Because YouTube and Spotify will let you do this and will take the cost because they want to put ads on that content.

01:16:28   And that's just not Apple's model.

01:16:30   So, they would essentially be taking on what could be a massive cost for no revenue coming in for them as a business.

01:16:37   Like, it would just be pure cost.

01:16:39   And at the moment, Apple works in a very simple, we sit in the middle scenario.

01:16:45   So, like, video is supported in Apple Podcasts.

01:16:48   If you subscribe to a video RSS feed, of which there are very few now, but used to be many.

01:16:54   And Comparable offers one.

01:16:55   There you go.

01:16:56   We have, for total party kill, we have total video kill for members.

01:17:00   Amazing.

01:17:01   Right?

01:17:02   But it's for members because, and this is the other part of this, if you host it yourself, it is incredibly expensive to host video.

01:17:09   Yes.

01:17:10   Especially since you're not scaling at YouTube levels.

01:17:13   And so, that's why podcasts, even if they offered this feature, podcasters, I mean, probably if they offered this feature, there would be a host out there that would have it.

01:17:21   They do offer it.

01:17:21   You can watch video podcasts in Apple Podcasts.

01:17:24   But people just don't do it.

01:17:26   If Apple merged podcasts together and said, upgrade can have a video feed, but you have to serve the video.

01:17:34   No one's going to do that.

01:17:36   Yeah.

01:17:37   I mean, I imagine they would go out with a partner like Libsyn or somebody like that and say, we've got a video plan for you.

01:17:43   That you can upload to, but it's extra expense because it's a huge amount of data that's getting transferred at that point.

01:17:49   So, you're right.

01:17:51   But at the same time, it does, it is not strategic for Apple, other than the sense that maybe Apple Podcasts then feels like it's missing the zeitgeist of podcasts.

01:18:03   Yeah, I mean, but yes, I don't know if they care to that degree.

01:18:09   I'm not sure.

01:18:10   I'm not sure that they do.

01:18:11   I think that they are perfectly happy being, you know, the main place that people get audio podcasts.

01:18:17   I think they're perfectly happy with that.

01:18:19   My other idea was that they do something like, you can tell where the YouTube video is for your podcast and they'll put in a player in a WebKit view or something like that.

01:18:31   But no, you're right.

01:18:32   You're right.

01:18:32   It is.

01:18:33   What do they want to be?

01:18:34   Do they want to be, you know, definitive wherever podcasting goes, including into video?

01:18:41   Or are they more narrowly focused for a lot of Apple reasons?

01:18:46   And I think they, right, the reason makes sense.

01:18:48   I would just say, though, that it does, the danger there is that podcasting shoots off in this other direction and Apple never goes there.

01:18:54   I mean, I think it already has happened.

01:18:56   I think podcasting has shot off in another direction.

01:18:58   YouTube is now the number one place to get podcast content, I think.

01:19:03   Now, there are many reasons that people produce video versions of their podcasts, which, again, is not Apple.

01:19:11   Apple don't care about building an algorithmic suggestion engine to that degree, right?

01:19:15   I think that's why people make video versions of it.

01:19:19   One of the main reasons that people make video versions of their shows.

01:19:23   From my perspective, this will not continue anyway.

01:19:28   Like, this kind of, like, push to video, people think that this is, like, the new way and the only possible way that podcasting can be successful into the future.

01:19:36   And I think that that is going to retreat.

01:19:38   It's just, this industry has found so many weird and wonderful ways that it goes to as people are trying to unlock that next $10 million, right?

01:19:49   And, you know, for a while, it was just bundle up a bunch of shows, put some celebrities on them, and someone will buy your podcast company.

01:19:56   Then that stopped.

01:19:58   And now, everyone's, like, panic, panic.

01:20:00   The industry's failing.

01:20:02   We've all got to abandon ship.

01:20:04   And then Netflix came into the conversation.

01:20:06   And now it's, like, oh, hey, we can license again.

01:20:10   And so, like, people just get, the podcasting industry, people just get very excited because everybody wants it to be bigger than it is.

01:20:16   And, like, everyone should really just be happy with the size that it is because it is a business that works really well for a bunch of very specific reasons.

01:20:24   And the more we give away from the RSS underpinning of this industry, the more we will lose, not gain, is my kind of overall thesis.

01:20:34   I agree.

01:20:36   I'll throw out another idea here, which is, I think that what's one of the things that's happening is that, especially for, like, celebrities, is that podcast is now a synonym for a talk show you distribute yourself.

01:20:54   Yeah.

01:20:55   Right.

01:20:55   Remember when podcasts were all heavily edited and scripted podcasts about murders?

01:20:59   Mm-hmm.

01:20:59   Because it's serious.

01:21:01   We've been podcasting through all of it.

01:21:02   But there was a time when, like, every podcast was a very expensive scripted podcast about true crime or whatever.

01:21:08   Mm-hmm.

01:21:08   And now, I think the hot podcast format is conversations like we have, which is awesome, actually, because we are not making the money and do not have the audience that the rest is history has.

01:21:23   But I will tell you, their video strategy is our video strategy.

01:21:26   Yeah.

01:21:27   It's identical.

01:21:27   Yeah.

01:21:28   It's identical what you see.

01:21:30   Yeah.

01:21:30   Now, Conan O'Brien's strategy, you know, he's got multiple cameras in the studio, but, you know, it's cameras around a table in a studio.

01:21:38   It's a talk show with a talk show host that's distributed on the internet.

01:21:43   Stephen Colbert, when it was announced that CBS was going to cancel him at the end of next year's season in the spring, everybody was immediately saying, well, you know, do a podcast.

01:21:57   It's like, I mean, it's do a show on the internet, but now the context for that is do a podcast because that's, I think, so I think that's where it is right now as people think of it that way.

01:22:08   The good thing is, and there is a good thing here, is I believe that so many people love podcasts because they're trapped in their cars or trapped somewhere where they can't watch TV, but they can listen to the radio.

01:22:26   And that aspect of podcasting doesn't transform when everything's on YouTube.

01:22:31   I still listen to the rest is history.

01:22:33   I don't watch their YouTube videos.

01:22:34   I do watch some clips of, like, Conan's podcasts and stuff like that, and watching that stuff on YouTube is fun, but, like, it's not just the only way that people consume podcasting, and I think that's good.

01:22:46   I think having the video is fine, but, so what I like about it is Conan O'Brien has a podcast, and he may be comfortable.

01:22:56   With the video, like, this is like when I'm on Twit, you know, Leo comes from a TV background, and so he, I think, feels that the video version is the definitive version, but a whole lot of people never see the video version.

01:23:08   And so I like the idea that Conan O'Brien has a podcast.

01:23:11   He doesn't have a YouTube video show, even though he does.

01:23:15   He also has a podcast you can just listen to.

01:23:18   Amy Poehler's podcast, you can just listen to it, and it's very popular.

01:23:23   So, you know, I don't know what that means for the future of podcasting, but I think what I like about it is it shows that conversational podcasting in audio form is viable, even if some of the big stars with big budgets also do video at a much higher level than we do.

01:23:41   So that's, it's an interesting idea, but I think Logan, Mike got to the big, the big issue here is it's not aligned with Apple strategy, and Apple doesn't host video files or podcast files of any kind other than some membership files.

01:23:56   This episode of Upgrade is brought to you by Factor.

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01:25:12   Jason, can you imagine how Factor could help you during a time when there's otherwise treats all over the house?

01:25:19   Oh, I mean, well, you get a good meal in you, and then you're not drifting toward the treats or the snacks, as we said earlier.

01:25:25   Yep.

01:25:26   I visited my mom recently.

01:25:27   I mean, she doesn't cook anymore, basically.

01:25:29   She was like, oh, I feel terrible.

01:25:31   I don't cook anymore.

01:25:32   But, you know, she lives alone.

01:25:33   She's 86.

01:25:33   She doesn't want to cook anymore, and she shouldn't have to.

01:25:36   But we're worried about what food she is eating.

01:25:39   And so one of the things we did is send her Factor meals.

01:25:42   I consult with her, and I pick the meals myself, actually, and send them to her.

01:25:47   And that's been useful, and we just got a box last week, and Lauren's been taking them to work, and she works on Thursday nights.

01:25:54   And, again, making a meal for one is not fun.

01:25:57   So I had dinner on Thursday night, and I had a Factor meal, chicken.

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01:26:11   It actually tasted really great.

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01:26:17   Like, because it can taste weird.

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01:27:02   Whoa, I didn't even get to say it's time for some ask-up-break questions.

01:27:07   These are already firing off the lasers.

01:27:09   Lasers are ready.

01:27:10   The lasers are always ready.

01:27:11   Sometimes they're too ready.

01:27:12   If anything.

01:27:13   I would like to mention, you know, we're going to be doing the holiday special next week.

01:27:17   So I think I would love to do some holiday ask-up-grade questions.

01:27:21   So if you have any specific holiday questions you'd like us to answer on next week's show,

01:27:26   go to upgradefeedback.com and send us your ask-up-grade questions.

01:27:30   Roy asks, Jason mentioned during episode 593 that Apple tried to hire him a decade ago.

01:27:37   In my three or four years of listening to Upgrade, I don't think I've ever heard this story.

01:27:42   What was the position?

01:27:43   Did they approach him out the blue?

01:27:44   Did he apply?

01:27:45   Why did he turn them down?

01:27:47   I would love to hear more about it.

01:27:48   This is not the only part.

01:27:49   I've heard this from a few people, Jason.

01:27:51   It was just a throwaway comment.

01:27:53   We have spoken about some point, but a long time ago, I think.

01:27:56   Yeah, a long time ago.

01:27:58   And I think maybe I went into more detail on other podcasts about it.

01:28:01   But I've been in the funnel, the hiring funnel for Apple a couple of times.

01:28:05   One was back when I worked at IDG, and they approached me about something, and that didn't go very far.

01:28:11   I think I decided it wasn't really a great fit, and we didn't do it.

01:28:15   And then after I left in that first year that I was out on my own, you go out on your own, and I don't know about anybody else.

01:28:22   But for me, every time somebody mentioned a job opening in that first year, I was like, hey, a job.

01:28:30   I don't have one of those.

01:28:31   Maybe I should have one of those.

01:28:32   And I don't do that anymore, but I did that for a little while.

01:28:36   I got approached by a person who works in editorial, which is very funny, thinking about Apple as an editor and a journalist, that they have an editorial group.

01:28:49   But the editorial group does things like App Store content, App Store features.

01:28:57   When they have picks of featured apps, they work with developer relations, but there's a separate group that is doing content for the App Store.

01:29:08   And this is as they are about to launch or just had launched the Mac App Store.

01:29:13   And so I think the concept there was, we want a lead editor for the Mac App Store to do the content for the Mac App Store.

01:29:22   Yeah.

01:29:23   And work with other people and all of that.

01:29:26   And they approached me because you can kind of see why they might do that.

01:29:31   I had left Macworld, but I'd been the editor at Macworld for a decade.

01:29:36   And they're thinking Apple, you know, Mac content.

01:29:39   And he worked at Macworld.

01:29:41   And so maybe he will be the person.

01:29:43   And I talked to them.

01:29:44   I talked to the guy.

01:29:46   I remember at WWDC, actually, that year, the first WWDC, I was there on my own instead of with Macworld.

01:29:53   I talked to the guy who was the hiring manager.

01:29:56   I talked to him on the phone.

01:29:57   We met in person, said hello.

01:30:00   And I definitely seen a lot of my colleagues get hired away by Apple already.

01:30:03   And I'm like, well, I'm going to be open to this because I don't know how this independent thing is going to go.

01:30:06   And we'll just see.

01:30:07   And honestly, I was kind of expecting it was useful.

01:30:10   I think I talked about this on Free Agents back in the day that I did with David Sparks.

01:30:16   Yeah.

01:30:17   Because part of it is measuring your worth.

01:30:19   And so what I did was I tried to calculate out what did I, what would it take for me to go to a corporate job

01:30:29   and leave my independent life?

01:30:31   And keep in mind, at this point, it would take almost, at some point in the last 10 years,

01:30:37   that number has increased beyond a point that any reasonable company would hire me, right?

01:30:42   Because I just want to, which means essentially I'm unhirable.

01:30:45   Because like you would, to leave all of this behind for a corporate job would take an enormous sum of money

01:30:53   because I'm doing fine here and I don't want to do that.

01:30:57   So they would need to blow me away.

01:30:59   Um, what I found out with this job, which was early on, was, um, they having done it for having,

01:31:06   having been in this job for six months or a year, what they were going to offer was less

01:31:13   than I was already producing.

01:31:15   It's not ideal.

01:31:17   And they, and they had like options, right?

01:31:19   It was like, but there's also stock compensation and all of that.

01:31:22   But I was looking at it and thinking, and I don't even know if Lauren had a full-time job at this point.

01:31:28   I think she didn't, she was still looking for a full-time job so that we could get benefits and stuff like that.

01:31:32   I had this thought of like, do I want to do this?

01:31:36   Um, when it's not going to benefit me financially, it's just going to be back in the maw of a, of a corporation.

01:31:43   And since it's Apple, it means that I essentially would need to cease all of my other stuff that I do, which I didn't like.

01:31:50   And we didn't get that far, but I knew that would be the matter.

01:31:53   And then upgrade listeners may know my opinion about, um, remote work.

01:31:58   I had a great staff of people at Macworld, many of whom did not work in our office and it didn't matter.

01:32:03   Cause what we did could be done on the internet just fine.

01:32:05   Um, this was a job that involved sitting at a computer doing content.

01:32:11   Um, and they wanted it five days a week in Cupertino and I had kids in school.

01:32:16   And I was like, that was the deal breaker for me.

01:32:18   It was like, you're not blowing me away here.

01:32:21   If you know, if you, I had a brief, I was going to, uh, I'll drop another thing here.

01:32:26   I was going to do a job interview at Amazon.

01:32:28   And this is also in those early days.

01:32:29   And I had somebody I used to work with at IDG who worked at Amazon and he suggested in a meeting somewhere about creating a new position to do content in the context of, of, of Amazon and the homepage of Amazon.

01:32:45   I'm like, we need somebody who's got real editorial mind here.

01:32:49   And he suggested me and we lined up an interview or a series of interviews in Seattle for me.

01:32:53   I was going to fly into Seattle for a day on Amazon's dime, do a bunch of interviews and then fly home.

01:32:59   And, um, literally the day before they called and said, we're canceling, which I think, I think my friend's suggestion got to somebody who was like, I don't want that job to be hired.

01:33:09   Let's not do that.

01:33:11   Um, and so that all, that all went away, but it again made me think of my worth.

01:33:15   And it was like, they are going to need to pay me so much money for me to leave my career behind and move my family to Seattle.

01:33:26   And not that there isn't a price, but like I said, I feel, I, I, I rapidly came to realize that my price was so high again, that nobody should pay it.

01:33:40   Right?

01:33:41   Like you could pay me a million dollars a year and I would probably do it probably depending on what it was, but you shouldn't pay me a million dollars a year.

01:33:53   You should hire somebody else who you can pay a fraction of that to get the same thing.

01:33:58   Right.

01:33:59   And my, my skills are very specialized in many ways now in terms of my areas of expertise.

01:34:03   So anyway, so that's the story.

01:34:05   So we didn't go further than that, but it was definitely that.

01:34:08   And the earlier one that I had, it was a long drawn out experience.

01:34:11   The good news is, um, I told the hiring person at Apple, um, I know somebody who'd be perfect for this role because Dan Frakes got laid off from Mac world and he did Mac gem.

01:34:23   Which was all about Mac software and utilities and things like that highlighting Mac software, literally what the job of the Mac app store is.

01:34:31   I said, Dan would be great.

01:34:33   And good news.

01:34:34   He lives 10 minutes away from infinite loop, which is where their offices are.

01:34:38   So, so guess who has that job?

01:34:40   Yeah.

01:34:41   Guess who has that job?

01:34:42   Dan Frakes still has that job.

01:34:43   Yeah.

01:34:44   So a perfect fit.

01:34:45   And so I'm glad.

01:34:46   And I don't know if my recommendation led to that or if it happened completely independently, but like, it was very funny.

01:34:52   I was like, I can tell you who you should hire to do this job.

01:34:55   And they did hire that person.

01:34:55   So great.

01:34:56   Perfect fit.

01:34:57   I remember this being a very stressful time for me because I didn't want Jason to, to leave, uh, and, and go to Apple.

01:35:04   Um, and I'm happy.

01:35:05   Remember when I was, I remember when I was talking about maybe teaching at the graduate school of journalism at UC Berkeley.

01:35:10   I do not remember that.

01:35:12   Oh yeah.

01:35:13   Yeah.

01:35:13   And that would have been a time commitment where we would have had to like change when we do upgrade and a whole thing.

01:35:18   And then, and then it's very similar situation where I was talking to them and, uh, the problem was that they had had an instructor drop out.

01:35:25   And the, the kind of content it, uh, was going to cover was not in my area.

01:35:32   It was much more of a specific beat, uh, which I could, I could do it.

01:35:35   But if I was building the focus of the class, it would have been a little different.

01:35:40   Um, but because somebody fell out, they were really trying to replace it.

01:35:43   And then, and then they got this person who literally did that job.

01:35:48   And I was like, well, you should hire that person to do this.

01:35:52   I mean, it's not even higher.

01:35:52   It's like part-time, but that was the perfect fit for that.

01:35:55   Um, early days.

01:35:57   I mean, that's the, that's the truth of it is when you go out on your own scary early days, I don't know if this is for you.

01:36:02   It is scary and you, and I think there is always a calculus, which is I can build this on my own, but if somebody comes with a better opportunity, maybe I'll do that.

01:36:13   And then after a while, it just kind of fades away.

01:36:16   And I'm like, that's the, those kinds of opportunities I'm not really interested in.

01:36:19   Yeah.

01:36:20   I mean, I, I would, I was starting a podcast every two weeks.

01:36:24   It felt like at some point, right.

01:36:25   Cause it was like just trying things, right.

01:36:29   And seeing what stick, like that was kind of my version of it.

01:36:32   Um, but I was building something slightly different in your scenario.

01:36:36   I probably would have been doing the same kind of thing.

01:36:39   Jim writes in and says right now, Ram prices are increasing wildly.

01:36:44   Do you think Apple will be affected by this in the near future?

01:36:47   Do you think they could have set themselves up differently to other companies to mitigate this issue?

01:36:51   Apple does a lot.

01:36:55   I mean, Apple was asked this question in the quarterly and they said they weren't worried about it.

01:36:58   Yeah.

01:36:59   Um, because I think Apple has long-term contracts with Ram suppliers.

01:37:04   Um, they still have memory on their chips, right?

01:37:06   They, they, they don't have like a separate memory chip, but they, they still have to have the memory chips.

01:37:10   Yeah.

01:37:11   They still have to have those and they build them in.

01:37:13   Um, but Apple traditionally has spent a lot of time with long-term contracts where they're basically locking in prices in, in, in exchange for guaranteeing volume to the supplier.

01:37:25   And, um, they said they weren't really worried about it, about the volatility in it because they had, they had taken care of it.

01:37:32   Eventually, it could be, right?

01:37:35   Like, at some point, you know, there will be a term limit on those guarantees.

01:37:40   It's not going to be forever.

01:37:41   Of course.

01:37:42   Right?

01:37:42   And if this situation does not resolve itself, I've put a link in the show notes in case you, if you want to know more about it.

01:37:50   But like, very, it's just one of those things that reminds me of like COVID stuff where it's like a bunch of things have come together and have resulted in an issue.

01:37:59   Um, right.

01:38:00   If you want to remember, you can.

01:38:01   If, if it turns out that over the course of five years, the price of Ram goes from 10, whatever's to 20.

01:38:13   Like, it's just, it's fundamentally, this thing used to cost X, it costs 2X now.

01:38:18   Apple will have to grapple with that over time.

01:38:21   Yeah.

01:38:21   That, that is true.

01:38:23   But fluctuations where like, oh, suddenly Rams are expensive.

01:38:27   And then what usually happens is if it's so expensive, everybody kind of rushes in to fulfill demand, to lower the price, because that's kind of how the market dynamic works.

01:38:39   And if, if that's the case, then Apple could ride it out.

01:38:43   If there's a fundamental thing that happens that changes the world, of course, they'll have to deal with it.

01:38:48   They do have margins.

01:38:49   They have different calculations.

01:38:50   They can strike a bargain here and there.

01:38:53   But yeah.

01:38:53   So I think if the question is about fluctuations, I think Apple has said, we'll ride it out.

01:38:59   We're not worried about it.

01:39:00   Um, and then long-term will be a fun, I'd say long-term will be fundamental for everybody, right?

01:39:05   Like in the long term, if something doubles in price, every single supplier, every, of every single device that has RAM or whatever in it will have to deal with it.

01:39:14   And of course, Apple already charges a lot of money for RAM anyway.

01:39:17   So I'm sure they're building some level of flexibility.

01:39:20   Their margins are pretty good.

01:39:21   Yeah.

01:39:22   I mean, that, that, that is true.

01:39:23   That's absolutely true.

01:39:25   And James wrote in and says, you've mentioned not wanting to speculate too much about Apple employees, personal lives, their health or careers.

01:39:32   Where do you think the line is between gossip or unfounded speculation and reporting on current Apple news and rumors?

01:39:40   Is speculation more okay since executives are kind of like public figures?

01:39:44   I cannot decide my own position on this.

01:39:47   No, my feeling is what's public and what's private.

01:39:50   And I think we view it from the corporate angle.

01:39:54   So we might say Tim Cook, you know, seems like a person who might stick around, but also Tim Cook's in his mid sixties and things like that.

01:40:01   But the truth is, I think we approach a lot of this stuff from the angle of what does this mean for Apple going forward?

01:40:08   What does this mean for the structure of Apple?

01:40:10   How is Apple going to react to people leaving?

01:40:12   What, who are the new people coming in in positions of power?

01:40:16   But it's not, it's not like, I would say gossipy in the sense of, did you hear that so-and-so is doing this thing or going to this place?

01:40:26   Like, I want to approach it from a, what does it mean for Apple?

01:40:30   Because the people come and go, but Apple as a corporation stays.

01:40:33   And that's kind of what we're here to talk about.

01:40:36   And I think as well, this, this came up because of the report from Mark Gurman about a tremor, right?

01:40:41   For Tim Cook.

01:40:42   And I think we kind of touched on it because it was in the news, but like specifically so, but that we did not want to go into detail on it or speculate on it ourselves.

01:40:50   Like, but it is a thing that was in an important report and feels like something that should be mentioned if it's in that report.

01:40:56   And I would argue the CEO, the health of the CEO of Apple is relevant to a certain point, right?

01:41:01   This is, this goes back, there was a scandal about Steve Jobs's health.

01:41:05   There was literally a scandal about Steve Jobs's health, about if Apple had lied or hidden away the details of his health.

01:41:16   And the feeling was that at some level, a public company has to disclose the status of their, especially their CEO, co-founder and CEO.

01:41:29   And it's tough because health is a personal private thing.

01:41:36   But there is that moment where it's like, but this is relevant in ways to the operation of the company.

01:41:42   Especially Steve Jobs, right?

01:41:44   Yeah, but if you're, and so yes, HIPAA, right?

01:41:47   Like it's private, but at the same time, if you are an executive at a publicly traded company, I'm sorry, your whole life is not private.

01:41:54   Parts of it are public because you are an executive at a publicly traded company.

01:41:59   And so things you would otherwise say it's none of your business, it is kind of your business.

01:42:04   Things that could impact your ability to be able to do your job need to be disclosed because it could affect the stock price, which could affect people's savings, right?

01:42:16   Like there are, there are just things that you have to understand and go along with.

01:42:22   But like, you know, we're not going to sit here on this show and we don't and talk about what we think about Tim Cook's love life, right?

01:42:28   Because it's like, it's not important in any world.

01:42:31   Also, what I think we do, and you can see it from when we report, when we do like rumor roundup and all of that,

01:42:39   is we discuss things that get reported about things that might be coming from Apple.

01:42:47   But I feel like we do a pretty good job of trying, trying to diagnose that report, right?

01:42:56   Like, where did it come from?

01:42:58   And we've done this a lot.

01:42:59   Consider the sources behind it.

01:43:01   Who's giving Mark Gurman information?

01:43:03   But we also say Mark Gurman is generally right.

01:43:06   Like, I believe him and his sources because his track record is very, very good.

01:43:11   If there's a weird report from somewhere, Ming-Chi Kuo, we're like, his sources in the supply chain are good.

01:43:16   And so we lay, there's more credence to that than there is for some like random rumor posted on a Chinese social media site

01:43:22   that got screenshotted and translated and all of that.

01:43:25   We will disclose like this, some stuff is not worth mentioning, first off.

01:43:30   And second, if it is worth mentioning, it is worth mentioning with the details of where it came from.

01:43:34   And I think that's important too, as part of it is, you know, does this, does this stuff hold water basically?

01:43:43   And then you can judge, we will discuss it, but I want to always bring to the table like our level of trust or confidence in it.

01:43:53   And I think that's part of the conversation too.

01:43:56   And I think that's something that needs to come along with it.

01:43:58   Yep.

01:43:59   But also, just really quickly about personal lives and making it personal.

01:44:04   The other thing I would say is, I, the other place that this comes into effect is, you know,

01:44:11   it's kind of like mockery about irrelevant things and discussion of irrelevant things.

01:44:16   Just, I said, some things are relevant about people who are employees.

01:44:19   The things that are not about their role as an Apple person, uh, rapidly, that, that's when I feel like it's rapidly getting it personal.

01:44:27   It's like, first off, you don't know who made the decision.

01:44:30   So if you decide to write a thing that says someone, Phil Schiller made this decision, you better know for a fact that it's Phil Schiller.

01:44:36   Otherwise you're wrong.

01:44:37   And, uh, so you shouldn't say that.

01:44:39   You should say Apple made this decision and Phil Schiller rolled it out or whatever it is.

01:44:42   Somebody at Apple made this decision.

01:44:43   We don't know.

01:44:44   Um, that's important.

01:44:45   And then also it's the, it's the getting too personal about like Alan Dye's Instagram, right?

01:44:50   Like Alan Dye's Instagram is full of super fashion stuff.

01:44:54   And I get a sense that people are using Alan Dye's interest in the fashion industry as a way to get at him.

01:45:02   Like, oh, he's not one of us, or he's, he's interested in all this stuff that, and you don't have to be interested in fashion,

01:45:08   but like, I think it's irrelevant to his job as a designer at Apple and now meta it get, it got a little too personal in my opinion.

01:45:17   So, you know, think about them as people at a public company who have roles and may be visible.

01:45:22   And that is stuff we could talk about, but I would not go beyond that.

01:45:27   If you would like to send in a question for us to answer on the show, please go to upgradefeedback.com.

01:45:32   Especially if it's a holiday question, get it in.

01:45:34   We'll talk about it next week.

01:45:36   If you would like to support this show, there's an easy way to do that.

01:45:39   Go to getupgradeplus.com and you can sign up and become a member.

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01:45:48   If you'd like to actually see the video version of this show that we spoke about earlier on, you can go to YouTube.

01:45:54   Don't look at Spotify.

01:45:55   Don't look at Spotify.

01:45:56   Go to YouTube, search for the Upgrade Podcast, and you'll find us.

01:45:59   I'll put a link in the show notes too.

01:46:00   If you would like to watch us there, you can.

01:46:03   Thank you to Factor, Gusto, DeleteMe, and Squarespace for their support of this episode.

01:46:09   But most of all, thank you for listening.

01:46:11   Until next time, say goodbye, Justin Snow.

01:46:14   Goodbye, Mike Curley.