ATP

00:00:00 ◼   ► So, this week, we had something happen in Richmond, which does not typically happen in December.

00:00:06 ◼   ► And what we had happen was...

00:00:08 ◼   ► Good bagels?

00:00:09 ◼   ► Oh, really? This is the energy you're going to bring to the show tonight.

00:00:14 ◼   ► Please take note of who's antagonizing.

00:00:15 ◼   ► Yes, I am. You're still on my poo-poo list, but now it's both of you. Both of you are on my poo-poo list, darn it.

00:00:20 ◼   ► I mean, how do I not try that?

00:00:22 ◼   ► Well played, well played.

00:00:24 ◼   ► I'm the chief derailer in chief.

00:00:27 ◼   ► In any case, we had something very unusual happen. We got snow.

00:00:32 ◼   ► And what is so funny to me...

00:00:35 ◼   ► So, I haven't lived in Connecticut. I'm sure I've made this speech before on the show.

00:00:39 ◼   ► It's sometime in the last 10, 11 years, whatever.

00:00:40 ◼   ► But I haven't lived in Connecticut since I graduated high school in 2000.

00:00:44 ◼   ► Went to Virginia Tech for four years.

00:00:47 ◼   ► Briefly went back to Connecticut in the summertime for a couple of months while I was looking for work.

00:00:50 ◼   ► And then I was down in central Virginia, a different part of central Virginia after that.

00:00:55 ◼   ► So, it's been 21 years that I've been in Virginia. Far and away the longest I've ever lived anywhere.

00:00:59 ◼   ► And I really do not miss the snow. I'm good not having snow anymore.

00:01:06 ◼   ► And if Virginia, or at least Richmond, gets snow, typically that happens for whatever reason.

00:01:10 ◼   ► Like the January, February, maybe March timeframe.

00:01:14 ◼   ► But it is very unusual to get it in December.

00:01:17 ◼   ► But the thing that makes me laugh so much is that Richmond, for better and for worse, has approximately, let me do the math, zero ability to deal with snow.

00:01:27 ◼   ► And so, it was, I believe, Sunday night.

00:01:31 ◼   ► And they were calling for, prepare yourselves, Northeasterners.

00:01:35 ◼   ► They were calling for, I believe, three inches of snow.

00:01:40 ◼   ► And by 4 p.m. on Sunday afternoon, they had already canceled school for one day.

00:01:46 ◼   ► And intellectually, I get why that is.

00:01:50 ◼   ► Because as I said, we just don't have the plows and the salt and the whatever in order to deal with it.

00:01:56 ◼   ► I mean, we have some, but not nearly to the level that, you know, Massachusetts or New York has or Connecticut.

00:02:01 ◼   ► But as someone who spent his formative years in Connecticut, where my recollection, probably incorrect, but my recollection was we were under a foot of snow between October and April.

00:02:12 ◼   ► It's so funny to me that there had not been a single snowflake coming out of the sky by 4 p.m. on Sunday.

00:02:20 ◼   ► And they had already canceled school for Monday.

00:02:22 ◼   ► And then they canceled school for Tuesday.

00:02:23 ◼   ► And then today.

00:02:25 ◼   ► What?

00:02:25 ◼   ► Wait a second.

00:02:26 ◼   ► They canceled school for Tuesday on Sunday or on Monday?

00:02:30 ◼   ► Oh, no, I'm sorry.

00:02:30 ◼   ► On Monday afternoon.

00:02:31 ◼   ► I'm sorry.

00:02:32 ◼   ► That was ambiguous of me.

00:02:32 ◼   ► My apologies.

00:02:33 ◼   ► And what was happening on the ground Monday afternoon that they canceled school for Tuesday?

00:02:36 ◼   ► So they just hadn't been able to clear anything.

00:02:39 ◼   ► So it was the same three inches of snow?

00:02:41 ◼   ► Yeah, pretty much.

00:02:42 ◼   ► Two days off from school?

00:02:44 ◼   ► I think that's excessive.

00:02:44 ◼   ► I understand you can't get rid of it.

00:02:46 ◼   ► We're not going to have time to follow the rules.

00:02:47 ◼   ► No, I'm sorry.

00:02:47 ◼   ► My timeline's wrong.

00:02:48 ◼   ► Wait.

00:02:48 ◼   ► My timeline's wrong.

00:02:49 ◼   ► It was Friday and Monday.

00:02:50 ◼   ► I'm sorry.

00:02:50 ◼   ► My timeline is all wrong.

00:02:51 ◼   ► I should have taken notes.

00:02:51 ◼   ► So it was Friday.

00:02:53 ◼   ► They got canceled.

00:02:54 ◼   ► I think I have this right now.

00:02:55 ◼   ► So they canceled Thursday into Friday.

00:02:57 ◼   ► That was the first batch.

00:02:58 ◼   ► And then we got more snow on Monday.

00:02:59 ◼   ► That's what it was.

00:02:59 ◼   ► We were going to get more snow on Monday.

00:03:01 ◼   ► So they canceled Monday.

00:03:03 ◼   ► So what is time?

00:03:04 ◼   ► When the kids don't go to school, what is time?

00:03:06 ◼   ► I don't know how you, John, I don't know how you keep track of what day to record because

00:03:09 ◼   ► you have no kids there to keep you on track.

00:03:11 ◼   ► But anyways, so yeah, it's just so funny to me, our inability to deal with snow, or if you

00:03:16 ◼   ► believe these two jerks make bagels.

00:03:17 ◼   ► But anyway, our inability to deal with snow, it will never stop being funny to me.

00:03:21 ◼   ► And honestly, it is reasonable that they canceled school both of these days.

00:03:26 ◼   ► But to do so before there was a flake of snow on the ground, it will never stop making

00:03:32 ◼   ► me laugh.

00:03:33 ◼   ► I just find it to be the funniest thing in the world.

00:03:35 ◼   ► Canceling when there's no snow on the ground is reasonable if there's going to be like

00:03:38 ◼   ► three feet or something.

00:03:39 ◼   ► It's going to be like a loser.

00:03:40 ◼   ► Well, right.

00:03:40 ◼   ► That's the thing.

00:03:40 ◼   ► No, three inches, John.

00:03:41 ◼   ► Three inches.

00:03:42 ◼   ► I don't know what the metric conversion is.

00:03:43 ◼   ► But they don't have like plows and salt there.

00:03:45 ◼   ► Like that's, you know, the reason why, like, you know, you, John, up there in the Arctic,

00:03:50 ◼   ► you wouldn't cancel for three.

00:03:51 ◼   ► Like up there, it snows three inches.

00:03:53 ◼   ► No one even mentions it because you're equipped for it.

00:03:55 ◼   ► Everything is so commonly covered in snow up there that everyone, like that, you know,

00:03:59 ◼   ► the towns are prepared with plows and salt and everything.

00:04:02 ◼   ► Everyone knows how to drive in the snow.

00:04:03 ◼   ► And, you know, down, you know, in the south, in the deep south where Casey lives.

00:04:08 ◼   ► Yeah, in the deep, deep, deep south where I am.

00:04:10 ◼   ► No one there has ever seen snow before.

00:04:12 ◼   ► It's like the way the British people have never realized they need air conditioning.

00:04:16 ◼   ► Like even though like every summer, it's obvious that everyone in Britain needs air conditioning,

00:04:21 ◼   ► but like, oh, it's not usually like this.

00:04:23 ◼   ► And then, of course, every summer they say it's not usually like this.

00:04:26 ◼   ► And they obviously need air conditioning.

00:04:27 ◼   ► You know, Virginia, like it does snow sometimes.

00:04:31 ◼   ► And so you do probably need like a plow or two in town.

00:04:35 ◼   ► That's what I was saying.

00:04:36 ◼   ► Like maybe you get the one day, but like by that day being off,

00:04:40 ◼   ► the one plow that you have should drive over all the roads that are important.

00:04:43 ◼   ► You know what I mean?

00:04:44 ◼   ► Well, I think part of the problem is a lot in a lot of cases,

00:04:47 ◼   ► it's not the main roads or even like the second tier roads.

00:04:51 ◼   ► It's the neighborhood roads that are often either not maybe not impassable, but not great.

00:04:57 ◼   ► Well, you know, everyone in America has these gigantic SUVs now.

00:05:00 ◼   ► No matter where they live, I feel like, okay, so your local roads haven't been plowed.

00:05:05 ◼   ► I think your giant, you know, gnarly SUV with the big tires and 12 inches of ground clearance

00:05:11 ◼   ► can make it over three inches of snow to get onto the highway.

00:05:14 ◼   ► No, it can't because first of all, they don't have all the good tires and ground clearance.

00:05:19 ◼   ► They're large vehicles that have like, you know, racing slicks and 25 inch rims.

00:05:25 ◼   ► They have racing slicks, but okay.

00:05:26 ◼   ► They are also often like, you know, most SUVs now,

00:05:29 ◼   ► the most common trims sold are not off-road trims.

00:05:33 ◼   ► They're like, you know, lower to the ground, lower suspension, bigger wheels, smooth tires.

00:05:37 ◼   ► And, you know, they're made to look pretty.

00:05:38 ◼   ► Are they more than three inches off the ground?

00:05:40 ◼   ► Sometimes not.

00:05:41 ◼   ► But then, you know, and then also they are being piloted by people who not only have never driven

00:05:48 ◼   ► in any kind of condition, but think that their SUV will allow them to drive however they would

00:05:53 ◼   ► like in such conditions.

00:05:54 ◼   ► And so it's a combination of, you know, a lot of confidence in a vehicle that seems like

00:06:00 ◼   ► it would be good, but might not be as good as you think.

00:06:02 ◼   ► And that oftentimes results in problems.

00:06:06 ◼   ► That reminds me, I never gave my daughter her snow driving lesson because we just like the

00:06:11 ◼   ► timing didn't line up.

00:06:12 ◼   ► Like when my son was getting his license, there was a day when it snowed.

00:06:15 ◼   ► I think school was canceled or something.

00:06:16 ◼   ► And we raced over to the school parking lot, which was not plowed.

00:06:20 ◼   ► And it just had like a foot of snow in it and did all sorts of like snow shenanigans

00:06:24 ◼   ► to learn how to drive in snow.

00:06:25 ◼   ► But my daughter, you know, we've had a very, you know, fingers crossed.

00:06:30 ◼   ► We've had very light snow here, like where it would just be like, you know, an inch or

00:06:33 ◼   ► two, and then it just, you know, sort of settles in and then another inch or two.

00:06:36 ◼   ► It's like very, very light snow for the past several winters, not enough to go high school

00:06:41 ◼   ► parking lot, you know, skidding in the snow.

00:06:44 ◼   ► And so she's never, I've never gotten a chance to do that with her.

00:06:46 ◼   ► So maybe, maybe when she's home over the holidays, we'll have a chance to do that.

00:06:49 ◼   ► But we'll see.

00:06:50 ◼   ► It's the, that's the tricky thing about having plows.

00:06:52 ◼   ► So you want to teach your kid how to drive in the snow?

00:06:55 ◼   ► You have a very narrow window of time where you can get to an unplowed parking lot.

00:07:00 ◼   ► before the plows come and plow the parking lot.

00:07:02 ◼   ► That's so true.

00:07:03 ◼   ► The only thing that this reminds me of, it's not apples to apples, but years ago, again,

00:07:07 ◼   ► I'm sure I've told this story before, but years ago, many, many years ago, like 10 plus

00:07:11 ◼   ► years ago, I was doing a lot of work in the LA area.

00:07:14 ◼   ► And there was one day that we were, it was an evening and we were catching a flight back

00:07:18 ◼   ► east.

00:07:19 ◼   ► I believe it was a red eye and we were driving to LAX and there was rain in Los Angeles.

00:07:26 ◼   ► And it was, if I'm, if I'm honest, it was a genuine rain.

00:07:30 ◼   ► It wasn't just a little spittle.

00:07:31 ◼   ► Like it was an honest to goodness rain.

00:07:33 ◼   ► And if I wasn't there, I would not believe the words that are about to come out of my

00:07:37 ◼   ► mouth.

00:07:37 ◼   ► But I kid you not, people in Los Angeles don't understand what weather is.

00:07:42 ◼   ► I think most of coastal California don't understand, don't get what weather is.

00:07:45 ◼   ► And so anyways, these cars were spinning off the road, pew, pew, pew, left and right.

00:07:51 ◼   ► And it was rain, like just rain, but they never get weather.

00:07:56 ◼   ► So they didn't know what to do.

00:07:57 ◼   ► And it was scary, but also freaking hilarious because nobody understood what to do when the

00:08:04 ◼   ► weather wasn't absolutely perfect.

00:08:06 ◼   ► It was incredible.

00:08:07 ◼   ► All right, let's do some follow-up.

00:08:10 ◼   ► Speaking of the Los Angeles area, if I'm not mistaken, that's where this is all filmed.

00:08:13 ◼   ► Apple Fitness Plus, and I would like to state for the record, I did not write this.

00:08:17 ◼   ► I believe this was John.

00:08:18 ◼   ► From our internal show notes, Apple Fitness Plus is doing better than the Mac Pro.

00:08:21 ◼   ► Kind of wish I came up with that burn.

00:08:23 ◼   ► Very well done, John.

00:08:25 ◼   ► Very well done.

00:08:26 ◼   ► And like I said, I believe that their studio is in Santa Monica.

00:08:29 ◼   ► Anyway, there was an announcement a couple of days back that Apple Fitness Plus will be

00:08:35 ◼   ► expanding to 28 new markets.

00:08:36 ◼   ► Reading from the announcement, Apple Today, which was December 8th, announced Apple Fitness

00:08:40 ◼   ► Plus is expanding to 28 new markets on December 15th with Japan launching early next

00:08:43 ◼   ► year.

00:08:44 ◼   ► As part of the service's latest expansion since it was unveiled five years ago, hundreds

00:08:48 ◼   ► of Fitness Plus workouts meditations will be digitally dubbed with a generated voice in

00:08:52 ◼   ► Spanish, German, and Japanese with more dubbed episodes added every week.

00:08:55 ◼   ► The dubbed workouts meditations feature a generated voice based on the actual voice of each of

00:08:59 ◼   ► the 28 Fitness Plus trainers.

00:09:01 ◼   ► Fitness Plus is also introducing a new music genre to the service, K-pop.

00:09:05 ◼   ► I thought that this was interesting for a few reasons.

00:09:07 ◼   ► First of all, we just recently had an article, I think, from Gurman saying that basically Fitness

00:09:12 ◼   ► Plus was circling the drain.

00:09:13 ◼   ► I'm paraphrasing heavily.

00:09:14 ◼   ► It was under review.

00:09:15 ◼   ► There you go.

00:09:16 ◼   ► Seems like I got a pretty good review.

00:09:17 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:09:17 ◼   ► And on that topic, and the reason I wrote that it's doing better than the Mac Pro, it might

00:09:21 ◼   ► still be under review.

00:09:22 ◼   ► This might be like a, you know, an effort to get more, you know, maybe people, maybe we

00:09:27 ◼   ► can get more customers because it's all in English.

00:09:29 ◼   ► How do we deal with that?

00:09:30 ◼   ► I'll use these AI dub voices, blah, blah, blah.

00:09:32 ◼   ► Right?

00:09:32 ◼   ► It still might be under review, but it's doing better than the Mac Pro because at least they're

00:09:37 ◼   ► doing stuff with it.

00:09:40 ◼   ► Not that we're better.

00:09:41 ◼   ► But anyways, so this whole story is interesting in that regard.

00:09:45 ◼   ► But I think the thing that's most interesting to me is the part in, as you just mentioned,

00:09:49 ◼   ► John, the part about the voices.

00:09:51 ◼   ► Let me read just that quick, that subject one more time.

00:09:53 ◼   ► The workouts and meditations will be digitally dubbed with a generated voice in Spanish, German,

00:09:59 ◼   ► and Japanese with more dubbed episodes, blah, blah, blah.

00:10:01 ◼   ► The generated voice based on the actual voice of each of the 28 Fitness Plus trainers.

00:10:05 ◼   ► I think that's fascinating.

00:10:07 ◼   ► And if I'm to base how this will go on Workout Buddy, which I don't know if you recall this,

00:10:13 ◼   ► I think it was new this year.

00:10:14 ◼   ► I don't think it was last year.

00:10:15 ◼   ► But the idea is as you're doing a workout with your watch, there will be a workout buddy that

00:10:21 ◼   ► will chime in periodically and say something along the lines of, great job in your outdoor

00:10:25 ◼   ► walk.

00:10:26 ◼   ► You've walked 340 million miles so far this year.

00:10:29 ◼   ► You have 28 minutes left in your exercise ring.

00:10:32 ◼   ► And now back to Metallica or whatever you're listening to.

00:10:35 ◼   ► And the voice that I use is very clearly, if I'm not mistaken, it's Sam, which is one of

00:10:40 ◼   ► the trainers on Fitness Plus.

00:10:41 ◼   ► They don't name who it is, but that's pretty clear who it is.

00:10:44 ◼   ► I'm pretty sure I have that right.

00:10:45 ◼   ► But anyways, it's really good.

00:10:47 ◼   ► And again, she, it, whatever, will even announce the music or whatever that you're listening to.

00:10:53 ◼   ► I don't think it does anything for podcasts.

00:10:55 ◼   ► But for music, when I'm using Apple music anyway, it'll say now back to, you know, Metallica

00:10:59 ◼   ► or Goose or what have you.

00:11:00 ◼   ► Um, and it really is.

00:11:02 ◼   ► I mean, it's clear that it's not a human, but as generated voices go, it's really, really,

00:11:09 ◼   ► really good.

00:11:09 ◼   ► So I presume and assume that they're using similar technology for workout buddy as they are for

00:11:15 ◼   ► these dubbed, uh, dubbed episodes.

00:11:17 ◼   ► But I just think that's super duper cool and a very fascinating approach.

00:11:21 ◼   ► Yeah, this is, uh, becoming more popular.

00:11:24 ◼   ► There was actually a recent controversy in one of the video games that I'm playing now where

00:11:28 ◼   ► the voice actors that voiced the lines of the various characters in the video game, um, were

00:11:34 ◼   ► depending on who you asked, forced or railroaded into signing a contract that said, you give us

00:11:39 ◼   ► the right to essentially generate, you know, generate, uh, speech from your voice.

00:11:43 ◼   ► Like I'm the same way these, I'm assuming these fitness trainers did you work as a fitness

00:11:47 ◼   ► trainer for Apple plus and part of their contract probably says we are allowed to synthesize your

00:11:52 ◼   ► voice so that we can, you know, make you speak German, even though you don't speak German or

00:11:55 ◼   ► whatever, W and a different language.

00:11:57 ◼   ► Um, and people don't like that because people are mad about AI and they're like, well, that

00:12:02 ◼   ► was part of their contract.

00:12:03 ◼   ► Those voice actors or those fitness trainers signed it or like, yeah, but they were forced into

00:12:06 ◼   ► it because you can't get a job in this industry because they all make you sign away your rights

00:12:10 ◼   ► to X, Y, and Z.

00:12:11 ◼   ► So, uh, anyway, people are mad at the video game because the video game, you know, has lines

00:12:15 ◼   ► of dialogue that are generated by, you know, AI trained on the actual voice actors' voices.

00:12:21 ◼   ► So I don't know how this is going to turn out.

00:12:23 ◼   ► It seems like another one of those things where like, if there have to be like a better contract

00:12:28 ◼   ► negotiations, kind of like before the contracts dealt with streaming and everything like that,

00:12:32 ◼   ► better contract negotiations to get a better deal that if you are going to sign away

00:12:35 ◼   ► your AI voice rights, that you are fairly compensated for it in some way.

00:12:40 ◼   ► So I wonder if the fitness plus trainers are kind of feeling the same way of like, Hey,

00:12:44 ◼   ► wait a second.

00:12:45 ◼   ► Did you just kind of replace me?

00:12:47 ◼   ► Like rather than paying me to read all those lines in German.

00:12:49 ◼   ► And the second thing is, okay, so they trained it on your voice in English, but there are sounds

00:12:54 ◼   ► in other languages that don't exist in English.

00:12:57 ◼   ► So it's really interesting, like for native speakers of those languages to say, does this

00:13:01 ◼   ► person, does this sound right?

00:13:03 ◼   ► You know, does this person speaking Korean sound correct?

00:13:06 ◼   ► Or are there sounds that are Chinese?

00:13:08 ◼   ► Like, or are there sounds that sound weird because nothing in the training data included

00:13:12 ◼   ► that sound?

00:13:13 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:13:14 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:13:14 ◼   ► I don't know how that's going to work out, but I do think it's fascinating one way or the

00:13:17 ◼   ► other.

00:13:17 ◼   ► And if ATP listener, if you, you know, try one of these in a week or so when it comes

00:13:23 ◼   ► out and you have feedback, please, you know, send me a toot on Maston or something.

00:13:27 ◼   ► I'd be interested to hear what you think.

00:13:28 ◼   ► Especially if you speak a language, if you're listening to a dub in a language that doesn't,

00:13:32 ◼   ► that has sounds that are not in English.

00:13:33 ◼   ► Or just if you're a native speaker of the language dubbed into, like, let us know, like, how

00:13:37 ◼   ► good are these dubs?

00:13:38 ◼   ► How, like, how does it, does it sound natural?

00:13:40 ◼   ► Can you tell it's AI generated?

00:13:42 ◼   ► Or, you know, like how, how good does it sound basically?

00:13:45 ◼   ► Right.

00:13:45 ◼   ► One other quick piece on this.

00:13:47 ◼   ► Later on, I hadn't read this part yet.

00:13:49 ◼   ► There's a, there's a quote and reading from the announcement through its seamless integration

00:13:53 ◼   ► across Apple devices, Fitness Plus has helped inspire users to live a healthier day, said

00:13:57 ◼   ► Jay Blahnik, Apple's vice president of fitness technologies.

00:13:59 ◼   ► I call this out.

00:14:00 ◼   ► I think it's interesting that they're quoting Jay Blahnik.

00:14:03 ◼   ► Not necessarily bad, but certainly interesting because if you recall just a few months back,

00:14:08 ◼   ► I think it was like summertime or something like that, there was a big controversy where he

00:14:12 ◼   ► was accused of really, Jay Blahnik, that is, was accused of really toxic workplace culture

00:14:17 ◼   ► and mild to severe harassment and so on and so forth.

00:14:21 ◼   ► And Apple seemed to just kind of want to sweep this under the rug.

00:14:24 ◼   ► And I'm not here to pass judgment as to whether or not any of those accusations were true, but

00:14:28 ◼   ► they usually are from what I can tell.

00:14:30 ◼   ► So anyways, I just thought it was interesting that they actually came out and quoted him

00:14:35 ◼   ► specifically, a named quote in the newsroom announcement.

00:14:39 ◼   ► File this under the same thing as people getting a press release saying how wonderful they are

00:14:43 ◼   ► when they get forced out of a company for not doing their job.

00:14:46 ◼   ► But if you're a high enough level executive and you do terrible things and everybody hates

00:14:49 ◼   ► you, they will fly cover for you and allow you to continue to have a job and sweep that

00:14:54 ◼   ► stuff under the carpet.

00:14:55 ◼   ► And I agree with you, Casey.

00:14:55 ◼   ► Usually when a store like that actually gets out into the public, it has to be so bad that

00:15:01 ◼   ► we actually hear about it.

00:15:03 ◼   ► There's plenty of bad managers doing bad things in positions where that doesn't get out to

00:15:07 ◼   ► the public.

00:15:08 ◼   ► When it does, it's really almost always like a weather smoke, there's fire situations.

00:15:13 ◼   ► So maybe a little bit more corporate dysfunction at the high levels of Apple.

00:15:17 ◼   ► We are sponsored by Aura Frames.

00:15:21 ◼   ► Now we've all been there.

00:15:23 ◼   ► We've all been kind of desperate for a gift at the last minute and just gotten somebody like

00:15:27 ◼   ► a gift card or something.

00:15:28 ◼   ► Skip the panic.

00:15:29 ◼   ► Give somebody an Aura Frame.

00:15:30 ◼   ► It's so much more personal.

00:15:32 ◼   ► You know, when you're buying gifts for adults, like, you know, your parents, your grandparents,

00:15:36 ◼   ► nobody wants more stuff.

00:15:38 ◼   ► Everyone has enough stuff.

00:15:39 ◼   ► You want personal, meaningful gifts.

00:15:42 ◼   ► And Aura Frames help you get that.

00:15:43 ◼   ► They're really good digital picture frames.

00:15:46 ◼   ► High quality hardware, great looking screens.

00:15:49 ◼   ► And there's this great ecosystem around them.

00:15:51 ◼   ► So here's what you do.

00:15:52 ◼   ► You give a digital picture frame to, say, your parents.

00:15:55 ◼   ► And you can have it show pictures of your family, like your kids, your dog, whatever you want

00:16:01 ◼   ► to do, in your parents' house on this picture frame.

00:16:04 ◼   ► And it's unlimited free photos and video hosting.

00:16:06 ◼   ► You can just download the Aura app.

00:16:08 ◼   ► You connect it to Wi-Fi.

00:16:09 ◼   ► And you can add photos anywhere, anytime.

00:16:12 ◼   ► So the second you take a great photo of your kid or your cute puppy or whatever, you can send

00:16:17 ◼   ► it to the digital picture frame that you gave as a gift to your family or whatever.

00:16:21 ◼   ► And you can even preload photos on it before it ships to them.

00:16:25 ◼   ► You can add a gift message.

00:16:26 ◼   ► So as soon as, so you can have it shipped directly to them, preloaded with your family photos.

00:16:31 ◼   ► They open it up.

00:16:32 ◼   ► It's already set up.

00:16:33 ◼   ► It's already there.

00:16:34 ◼   ► It's already ready to go.

00:16:36 ◼   ► And you can share whenever you want, effortlessly, right from your phone, all year long after that.

00:16:41 ◼   ► Every frame comes packaged in a premium gift box.

00:16:43 ◼   ► There's no price tag on it.

00:16:44 ◼   ► So it's really optimized for gift giving.

00:16:47 ◼   ► You can't wrap togetherness, but you can frame it.

00:16:50 ◼   ► So for a limited time, save on the perfect gift by visiting AuraFrames.com to get $35

00:16:55 ◼   ► off Aura's best-selling Carver Matte Frames, named number one by Wirecutter, by using promo

00:17:00 ◼   ► code ATP at checkout.

00:17:02 ◼   ► That's AuraFrames, spelled A-U-R-A, frames.com.

00:17:06 ◼   ► Promo code ATP.

00:17:07 ◼   ► This deal is exclusive to listeners, and frames sell out fast for the holidays.

00:17:10 ◼   ► So order yours now to get it in time.

00:17:12 ◼   ► Support the show by mentioning us at checkout.

00:17:14 ◼   ► Terms and conditions apply.

00:17:15 ◼   ► Thank you so much to Aura Frames for sponsoring our show.

00:17:18 ◼   ► All right, let's talk Cloudflare.

00:17:24 ◼   ► If you recall, there was a Cloudflare outage in mid-November, I believe it was.

00:17:28 ◼   ► We talked about it.

00:17:28 ◼   ► What was it?

00:17:28 ◼   ► Last week, I think.

00:17:29 ◼   ► And John, you had moved your, or excuse me, not moved.

00:17:34 ◼   ► You had put Cloudflare in front of your website to handle certificates and whatnot.

00:17:37 ◼   ► And Jay Ramskov writes, good timing with the switch to automatic SSL certificate updates

00:17:42 ◼   ► since they will soon start expiring quite quickly.

00:17:44 ◼   ► And we will link to, and Jay Ramskov linked to, TLS certificate lifetimes will officially

00:17:49 ◼   ► reduce to 47 days.

00:17:51 ◼   ► And there's a post on DigiCert that talks about this.

00:17:54 ◼   ► So Stephen Davidson at DigiCert writes, on May 16th of this year,

00:17:58 ◼   ► the CA browser form has officially voted to amend the TLS baseline requirements to set

00:18:02 ◼   ► a schedule for shortening both the lifetime of TLS certificates and the reusability of

00:18:06 ◼   ► CA-validated information in certificates.

00:18:09 ◼   ► The first user impacts of this ballot takes place in March 2026.

00:18:13 ◼   ► The new ballot targets certificate validity of 47 days, making automation essential.

00:18:19 ◼   ► And if you read this link, and John, correct me whenever you're ready, but my executive

00:18:22 ◼   ► summary, as the chief summarizer-in-chief, is that it's going, the current timeline is

00:18:27 ◼   ► I think something like 400 days, and over the next few years, it's going to shorten and shorten

00:18:30 ◼   ► and shorten.

00:18:31 ◼   ► And what I found fascinating was the 47-day number wasn't actually arbitrary.

00:18:35 ◼   ► It was one, and now I'm sort of reading from the article, one maximal month, which is 31 days,

00:18:42 ◼   ► plus half of a 30-day month, which is 15 days, plus one day of wiggle room.

00:18:47 ◼   ► So that's how you get to 47, which I thought was very interesting.

00:18:49 ◼   ► But all of this came from Apple.

00:18:51 ◼   ► They didn't say it this way, but I kind of read it as Apple railroaded everyone into,

00:18:56 ◼   ► look, this should be automated.

00:18:57 ◼   ► We should force people to automate it.

00:18:58 ◼   ► It's not safe to do it by hand.

00:19:00 ◼   ► Let's make it so incredibly short that it's frustrating not to.

00:19:04 ◼   ► And apparently it was Apple that really banged this drum really hard and started this whole process.

00:19:09 ◼   ► Yeah, this is an interesting human factors type thing where, I mean, if you've been in

00:19:15 ◼   ► the web world or worked on server-side stuff or even just been a customer for long enough,

00:19:20 ◼   ► I'm sure you've encountered a situation where, oops, someone forgot to renew their SSL certificate

00:19:26 ◼   ► on this very popular website.

00:19:28 ◼   ► And you're like, how can that possibly happen?

00:19:29 ◼   ► Like, this is an incredibly popular website.

00:19:31 ◼   ► It's the yahoo.com, whatever, like some really popular website.

00:19:35 ◼   ► That's an incredibly popular website.

00:19:36 ◼   ► I'm saying back in time, like back, you know, a long time.

00:19:40 ◼   ► You're like, you'd go to a website and like there'd be some security error and you can't

00:19:43 ◼   ► bring it up.

00:19:43 ◼   ► You're like, how did they, don't they have a person on staff whose job it is to, and let

00:19:48 ◼   ► me tell you, having worked for a lot of big companies that make a lot of money and have

00:19:50 ◼   ► a lot of employees, when certificates last for five years, it's really easy to miss that

00:19:57 ◼   ► five-year anniversary renewal time when you have to refresh the certificate and only find out

00:20:03 ◼   ► about it when like alarms start going off at like 1am when the certificate expires and nobody

00:20:07 ◼   ► noticed because the person who had set up, who had done it and then set a calendar reminder

00:20:11 ◼   ► five years, like left the company two and a half years ago and you know, no one else was

00:20:14 ◼   ► on top of that.

00:20:15 ◼   ► And then the first time that happens at every company, there's this big meeting and everyone

00:20:18 ◼   ► gets together.

00:20:18 ◼   ► Oh, we're not going to let this happen again, blah, blah.

00:20:20 ◼   ► But the point is when things are done manually, I mean, there's a long time between them.

00:20:24 ◼   ► It's easy to forget.

00:20:25 ◼   ► So I think Apple's point here is like, if you make the time short enough, there's no

00:20:30 ◼   ► way any sane company you hope is going to do this manually.

00:20:33 ◼   ► There are lots of other dangers of doing it manually too, of secrets leaking out and copying

00:20:37 ◼   ► and pasting things into the wrong window and crap like that.

00:20:39 ◼   ► You want it to be automated.

00:20:40 ◼   ► All that said, I had no idea this was happening and it is just a happy accident that there's

00:20:45 ◼   ► no way I'd want to do the thing that I had to do like all those sites manually every

00:20:49 ◼   ► 47 days.

00:20:50 ◼   ► So if I hadn't done the Cloudflare stuff that I'd done, I definitely would have done

00:20:55 ◼   ► it once I learned that they're going to keep shortening the thing until it gets to 47 days.

00:20:58 ◼   ► So automation is good.

00:20:59 ◼   ► Wes Doman writes, John should look into GitHub Pages for a static site.

00:21:03 ◼   ► It's free and can be built from Markdown using GitHub Actions and also includes SSL.

00:21:06 ◼   ► I've been running my blog site on it for years now and I've seen zero performance or uptime

00:21:10 ◼   ► issues, no server costs, no renewals, et cetera.

00:21:12 ◼   ► I think this is interesting, but you're not a Markdown fan, if I'm not mistaken, right?

00:21:16 ◼   ► No, and I wouldn't hitch my wagon to the GitHub stuff.

00:21:19 ◼   ► I mean, it's Microsoft owned and they're doing some weird stuff and they're not primarily

00:21:22 ◼   ► a web host.

00:21:23 ◼   ► So it's fun for like a cute little thing and it's great that it works, but I wouldn't want

00:21:27 ◼   ► to put my site there.

00:21:28 ◼   ► Fair enough.

00:21:29 ◼   ► And then an anonymous Cloudflare employee wrote, you can use Cloudflare Workers, Pages, or even

00:21:34 ◼   ► R2 to host static sites there directly.

00:21:36 ◼   ► No need to run your own origin for this, all free.

00:21:39 ◼   ► Workers started as a serverless offering, but is now able to host static assets too and thus

00:21:43 ◼   ► do what Pages does.

00:21:45 ◼   ► So Workers are certainly the way to go for new stuff.

00:21:47 ◼   ► Beyond static assets, Workers can be used to build insanely scalable full stack web applications

00:21:51 ◼   ► without issues.

00:21:52 ◼   ► Would have been perfect for the overcast chapter image back end, for example.

00:21:55 ◼   ► The Workers plus R2 plus KV, which I believe is key value storage, plus durable object stack

00:22:00 ◼   ► is very powerful and scalable.

00:22:02 ◼   ► So I actually looked into this, um, Pages, it seems like it's kind of deprecated, even

00:22:07 ◼   ► if it's not really deprecated, they're like, you know, workers is the new thing.

00:22:10 ◼   ► It can do everything that Pages did, but Pages was very, uh, aligned towards letting you make

00:22:15 ◼   ► static sites.

00:22:16 ◼   ► Uh, R2 is just like S3.

00:22:18 ◼   ► It's just like a bucket or whatever.

00:22:19 ◼   ► But I think R2 has some interesting features in terms of URL rewriting, like just on the

00:22:24 ◼   ► bucket that S3 doesn't have.

00:22:26 ◼   ► So you can really serve a static site and not have like .html extensions on all your URLs

00:22:30 ◼   ► because I think R2 will do stuff.

00:22:31 ◼   ► I haven't entirely looked into that, but what I did look into is workers.

00:22:35 ◼   ► Workers has a way of saying like, you have static assets and put them in a directory and

00:22:40 ◼   ► then, you know, deploy your worker and you can run it locally or you can run it on the

00:22:44 ◼   ► Cloudflare servers and you point it to a domain and it's real easy.

00:22:47 ◼   ► And I set that up on my website and then I tried to do my first deployment.

00:22:51 ◼   ► I was just using a different scratch domain.

00:22:53 ◼   ► I tried to do the deployment and it's like, oh, it looks like you have a file that's more

00:22:56 ◼   ► than 25 megabytes and assets can't be more than 25 megabytes.

00:22:59 ◼   ► I'm like, oh, that really puts a damper on workers.

00:23:02 ◼   ► And they're like, well, you know, you can, you can put the files that are bigger than 25

00:23:06 ◼   ► megabytes in R2 and then you can route, you can, in your worker config, you can say,

00:23:09 ◼   ► if a request comes in for this, route it to the R2 bucket instead of the secure assets

00:23:14 ◼   ► thing.

00:23:14 ◼   ► But I was like, oh, I don't want to have to figure out all the 25 meg files that are over

00:23:18 ◼   ► here and do all this routing.

00:23:19 ◼   ► So let me just do pure worker in front of R2 because the worker, you get to actually write

00:23:24 ◼   ► like Node.js code or whatever, where you can do any routing you want and do all your redirects.

00:23:29 ◼   ► You just write code instead of having to do like a server config.

00:23:31 ◼   ► And I got that set up and this is everything I'm describing took place today.

00:23:36 ◼   ► So this was, I was able to explore a lot of this pretty quickly.

00:23:38 ◼   ► And I have basically my website up with workers on all backed by R2 using a different domain.

00:23:45 ◼   ► And it seems fine.

00:23:46 ◼   ► I might move the real site there.

00:23:48 ◼   ► Again, this is all entirely free, which is great.

00:23:51 ◼   ► Like you can run code.

00:23:53 ◼   ► Like, you know, the, the quote unquote code is like a JavaScript file.

00:23:58 ◼   ► So it's like a page of code, like just, you know, when a request comes in, what should

00:24:01 ◼   ► I do with it?

00:24:02 ◼   ► And you get to implement all of your routing logic, however you want to do it.

00:24:06 ◼   ► And my routing logic is not complicated.

00:24:07 ◼   ► I'm basically just move, removing that HTML file extensions.

00:24:10 ◼   ► I also get to set all my cache expiration headers and do all the stuff that you would do in a

00:24:14 ◼   ► typical web server config.

00:24:15 ◼   ► So I'm pretty impressed by it, but I haven't decided whether I am going to move, fully move

00:24:20 ◼   ► the site there right now.

00:24:21 ◼   ► So I'm still just putting Cloudflare and it's caching in front of my crappy shared hosting

00:24:25 ◼   ► thing.

00:24:26 ◼   ► I may actually just leave the crappy shared hosting to Mulder and move all the actual pages

00:24:32 ◼   ► to Cloudflare.

00:24:33 ◼   ► Tune in next week for an update.

00:24:34 ◼   ► And as for using it for overcast images, two reasons why I don't, I haven't done this.

00:24:41 ◼   ► Number one, when you actually look at the number of images I would have to host, a lot of times

00:24:47 ◼   ► any kind of like managed image service is priced per source image.

00:24:52 ◼   ► And even if you try to like kind of make your own and you look at like what the scale would be

00:24:57 ◼   ► for me to do this for every podcast and every podcast's individual episodes of episode art.

00:25:03 ◼   ► We're talking millions of images.

00:25:06 ◼   ► The small versions of which at least get a lot of traffic and the big versions get some traffic.

00:25:09 ◼   ► So it's a very large number.

00:25:12 ◼   ► And usually the economics of it are way out of whack for, you know, what that would be.

00:25:17 ◼   ► But secondly, I also don't like relying on a proprietary service in the hosting world that

00:25:24 ◼   ► nothing else can replicate.

00:25:25 ◼   ► You know, right now I've been with Linode for a while.

00:25:29 ◼   ► I just use the basic, you know, Linode compute instances, which used to be called VPSs.

00:25:33 ◼   ► And these are just little Linux servers.

00:25:35 ◼   ► And if Linode goes bad, which it has been, I'm able to, you know, move to other hosts, which

00:25:42 ◼   ► I'm looking at, that can also host any kind of Linode computing instance.

00:25:47 ◼   ► And everyone can host that.

00:25:49 ◼   ► AWS can host that.

00:25:50 ◼   ► There's, you know, DigitalOcean.

00:25:51 ◼   ► There's, you know, different other hosts.

00:25:53 ◼   ► I'm looking at Hetzner now because they're apparently in the U.S. now, which I didn't realize.

00:25:58 ◼   ► And so there's, you know, if that host goes bad, whatever host I'm on, I can move without

00:26:04 ◼   ► rewriting my entire stack.

00:26:05 ◼   ► Now, moving hosts is not fun, but I can do it.

00:26:08 ◼   ► When I was using S3, as I was describing, and then using Linode object storage, those are

00:26:13 ◼   ► just, that's the same, like, standard compatible service.

00:26:16 ◼   ► It was no big deal to move from S3 to Linode objects.

00:26:20 ◼   ► And then when Linode objects, for some reason, was limited to 50, 500 million, whatever it

00:26:23 ◼   ► was, entries, it was no big deal to then move out of Linode objects into Cloudflare R2,

00:26:28 ◼   ► which I'm just talking about.

00:26:30 ◼   ► Because these are all, like, plug-in compatible, identical functioning services, basically.

00:26:35 ◼   ► When you get into anything that's more specialized, that's more managed by one of these, or, like,

00:26:41 ◼   ► that, you know, a capability that only Cloudflare has, that means if Cloudflare goes bad, I can't

00:26:45 ◼   ► move very easily.

00:26:46 ◼   ► And the kind of decisions I make for my hosting, I look at the long term, because moving hosts

00:26:53 ◼   ► is terrible, dealing with server code more than you have to is terrible.

00:26:57 ◼   ► I don't love dealing with servers at all.

00:26:59 ◼   ► I do it to achieve its means to an end.

00:27:01 ◼   ► So I want my servers to be as low-maintenance as possible.

00:27:04 ◼   ► The last thing I want is, for anything I choose today, to be different or discontinued or merged

00:27:12 ◼   ► with something else in three or five years.

00:27:15 ◼   ► And you might think, oh, you won't have to worry about it.

00:27:17 ◼   ► Well, Overcast is 11 years old.

00:27:19 ◼   ► I do have to worry about things like that.

00:27:21 ◼   ► And so I've been burned in the past of, you know, anytime I've relied on some kind of,

00:27:25 ◼   ► like, new managed thing that, oh, you can just, you've run this other cloud service thing

00:27:31 ◼   ► by this provider, and you automatically get this, you know, capability that it's just managed

00:27:36 ◼   ► for you.

00:27:38 ◼   ► And, yeah, usually within, you know, five years, if you're looking at that kind of time

00:27:42 ◼   ► span, a lot of those services are no longer there, or they jack up the prices really high,

00:27:47 ◼   ► and they're no longer affordable.

00:27:49 ◼   ► Or when you get to Overcast scale, they weren't affordable to begin with.

00:27:52 ◼   ► Like, there's all sorts of reasons why I do very boring things in the hosting world.

00:27:59 ◼   ► Mostly, it's because it's a lot cheaper.

00:28:02 ◼   ► And at my scale, that matters.

00:28:04 ◼   ► And then secondly, it is because of the longevity concerns.

00:28:08 ◼   ► This is a rapidly moving industry, and anything too specialized, I don't like to rely on.

00:28:14 ◼   ► Yeah, and on that front with my little dinky static site, as it turns out, doing something

00:28:20 ◼   ► like this, I mean, again, R2 is just like an S3 replacement.

00:28:22 ◼   ► I'm using S3 compatible commands, like the R clone command and stuff.

00:28:27 ◼   ► Like, you know, that's kind of a plug-in thing, because the S3 API has become the de facto API.

00:28:31 ◼   ► But the amount of, like, custom code that I have to essentially port from my Apache config

00:28:39 ◼   ► on my crappy shared host to my worker.js file, it's basically the same.

00:28:45 ◼   ► Like, there's like a page of code you've got to write in Apache for, like, redirect rules

00:28:49 ◼   ► and expires headers or whatever.

00:28:51 ◼   ► And then there's like a page of JavaScript that you have to write that does the same thing.

00:28:55 ◼   ► That's around the range of stuff that you want to change.

00:28:57 ◼   ► No matter what you have, so I have a static host, I can take it, a static site, I can take

00:29:00 ◼   ► it anywhere.

00:29:00 ◼   ► What if I took it to somewhere that uses Nginx?

00:29:03 ◼   ► Then I would have to write a page of Nginx config somewhere, probably.

00:29:06 ◼   ► Like, you're always, there's, it's impossible to move things without changing anything, anything.

00:29:10 ◼   ► Like, you're always going to have to do something.

00:29:11 ◼   ► But if it's like a page of code, and you might think, well, that's just configuration.

00:29:15 ◼   ► Now you have to write code.

00:29:16 ◼   ► The, like, index.js file that I wrote is not any more complicated than having to look up

00:29:21 ◼   ► what the directors for Nginx or Apache are.

00:29:23 ◼   ► So if you have a static site, don't think you're not going to have to do some kind of thing when

00:29:28 ◼   ► you move your stuff.

00:29:29 ◼   ► But it's the difference between like, all right, so I ported a one page of config to one page

00:29:34 ◼   ► of JavaScript versus Marco's thing where it's like, oh, you wrote something for workers,

00:29:38 ◼   ► but now you've got to get it to work in AWS Lambda and all the APIs are different because

00:29:41 ◼   ► the worker API thing that talks to R2 and everything is nothing like the API set for,

00:29:46 ◼   ► you know, talking to S3 and Lambda or whatever.

00:29:48 ◼   ► Even though R2 and S3 are both compatible, the JavaScript interface to that and to the request

00:29:53 ◼   ► response and everything is different.

00:29:55 ◼   ► I don't think there's a de facto standard for sort of like serverless worker type things,

00:30:01 ◼   ► but I might be wrong about that.

00:30:02 ◼   ► But anyway, that's the thing to keep in mind.

00:30:03 ◼   ► And yes, I kind of agree with Marco's thing of like, look, if you just give me a server

00:30:07 ◼   ► with the CPU and memory and disk and let me run software on it, that's probably the most

00:30:10 ◼   ► portable thing.

00:30:11 ◼   ► So coming back to Cloudflare, we spoke about this, I think it was last week.

00:30:15 ◼   ► And then shortly after the episode was released, we got some feedback.

00:30:19 ◼   ► Tony Denke writes, guys, please don't talk about Cloudflare again and conveniently included

00:30:24 ◼   ► a 500 internal server error Cloudflare image.

00:30:27 ◼   ► And then Landon wrote, the irony of listening to John talk about the next Cloudflare outage and

00:30:31 ◼   ► experiencing it at the same time.

00:30:33 ◼   ► So as it turns out, on the 5th of December, there was another Cloudflare outage.

00:30:36 ◼   ► Starting at 847 universal time, a portion of Cloudflare's network began experiencing

00:30:42 ◼   ► significant failures.

00:30:43 ◼   ► The incident was resolved at 912, or about 25 minutes of total impact, when all services

00:30:48 ◼   ► were fully restored.

00:30:48 ◼   ► A subset of customers were impacted, accounting for approximately 20% of all HTTP traffic served

00:30:53 ◼   ► by Cloudflare.

00:30:54 ◼   ► The issue was triggered by changes being made to our body parsing logic while attempting to

00:30:58 ◼   ► detect and mitigate an industry-wide vulnerability disclosed this week in React server components.

00:31:03 ◼   ► Yeah, as I noted last week, my, you know, wrong-headed notion that I was like, oh, Cloudflare.

00:31:09 ◼   ► Yeah, I always meant to move to Cloudflare.

00:31:10 ◼   ► And they just had an outage, right?

00:31:11 ◼   ► So they probably won't have another one soon.

00:31:12 ◼   ► That's not how outages work.

00:31:14 ◼   ► I was hoping this one would be caused by them trying to mitigate the problems of the first

00:31:18 ◼   ► outage.

00:31:18 ◼   ► It just turns out it was caused by something else.

00:31:20 ◼   ► But they did mention some of the changes they were making for the other outage, yeah.

00:31:23 ◼   ► Anyway, bad luck.

00:31:25 ◼   ► But this one didn't affect every site.

00:31:27 ◼   ► In fact, my site stayed up the entire time.

00:31:29 ◼   ► So lucky me.

00:31:30 ◼   ► But it was funny that I talked about moving to Cloudflare right after they had a big outage

00:31:35 ◼   ► and they immediately had another one.

00:31:37 ◼   ► All right.

00:31:37 ◼   ► With regard to the dingus and saying one's name, Jonathan Golbranson writes, uh, regarding

00:31:43 ◼   ► whether Siri answers in voice, text, both, et cetera, this is configurable in settings and

00:31:47 ◼   ► then Apple intelligence in Siri.

00:31:48 ◼   ► And there is a knowledge-based article that we will link.

00:31:51 ◼   ► And additionally, an image of this, and it says in Siri responses, spoken responses is

00:31:56 ◼   ► the header.

00:31:56 ◼   ► And the three options are prefer silent responses, automatic, or prefer spoken responses.

00:32:00 ◼   ► And the footer reads, Siri will always speak responses in certain circumstances, like when

00:32:04 ◼   ► you appear to be driving or, or using headphones with the screen off.

00:32:07 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:32:07 ◼   ► So I did figure that out with the screen off thing.

00:32:09 ◼   ► I don't know if the automatic is the default, but that's what mine was set to.

00:32:13 ◼   ► And honestly, I left it on automatic.

00:32:15 ◼   ► It's good to know if I ever want to demand that it say my name out loud, I can switch

00:32:19 ◼   ► it to prefer spoken responses, but I guess automatic normally works fine, except for that one time

00:32:24 ◼   ► when I really, really needed it to speak to me and it wouldn't.

00:32:26 ◼   ► Yep.

00:32:27 ◼   ► Orin Aydin writes, after hearing episode 668, I tried getting Siri to say my name and it

00:32:33 ◼   ► wouldn't work.

00:32:33 ◼   ► Then I had the idea of trying with my AirPods while the phone was in my pocket and it actually

00:32:37 ◼   ► worked.

00:32:37 ◼   ► Siri said my name.

00:32:38 ◼   ► As a side note, I also tried getting Siri to call my daughter, but it couldn't find her

00:32:42 ◼   ► no matter what I did.

00:32:42 ◼   ► I added her as my daughter in the contacts app and tried telling Siri her name, but nothing

00:32:46 ◼   ► helped.

00:32:47 ◼   ► What finally worked was opening her contact page and telling Siri to set this contact as my

00:32:50 ◼   ► daughter.

00:32:51 ◼   ► Also be grateful that your native language is English.

00:32:53 ◼   ► I once tried using Siri in Hebrew and let's just say it wasn't very pretty.

00:32:55 ◼   ► Wow.

00:32:56 ◼   ► Is that Apple intelligence?

00:32:57 ◼   ► You can go to a page on the screen and say this and it knows what it is.

00:33:00 ◼   ► It's a miracle.

00:33:01 ◼   ► That is a miracle.

00:33:02 ◼   ► I would never have thought to try that because I would think it was one of those things they

00:33:05 ◼   ► hadn't added to Siri yet.

00:33:06 ◼   ► Right?

00:33:07 ◼   ► Sad.

00:33:07 ◼   ► Well, Siri's been able to do things like when you say this in the past, you could say things

00:33:12 ◼   ► like, remind me about this tomorrow at one.

00:33:15 ◼   ► And what it would do is whatever the like, you know, the current like NS user activity

00:33:20 ◼   ► was.

00:33:20 ◼   ► So you could actually, I don't think it ever worked well in third party apps.

00:33:23 ◼   ► I never actually tried it much.

00:33:24 ◼   ► But, you know, if there was like a web page that you wanted to be reminded of, you could

00:33:28 ◼   ► say, remind me of this tomorrow.

00:33:29 ◼   ► If there's a phone call and it would actually create a reminder that would link to that thing.

00:33:34 ◼   ► Uh, it's still, that still does work, but I don't know how that will change in the era

00:33:40 ◼   ► of Apple intelligence, which is supposed to be a lot more aware of stuff like that.

00:33:43 ◼   ► Then we had a couple of people, a handful of people write in, uh, about a little bit

00:33:46 ◼   ► of an oops.

00:33:47 ◼   ► That was kind of our fault.

00:33:48 ◼   ► Uh, Sean Santry writes, I was listening to ATP episode 668 via CarPlay.

00:33:52 ◼   ► And when you said, dingus, say my name, my dingus answered.

00:33:56 ◼   ► Then since the podcast had briefly paused, Overcast helpfully rewound exactly to the point where

00:34:00 ◼   ► you said, uh, dingus, say my name, lather, rinse, repeat.

00:34:03 ◼   ► Reed Sorenson writes, thanks to the handy smart resume feature in Overcast, the Siri discussion

00:34:07 ◼   ► in, in episode 668, threw my phone into a five second time loop of dingus, say my name

00:34:13 ◼   ► while I was driving in conditions too snowy to hit the skip button.

00:34:15 ◼   ► Hey Siri, buy Overcast premium, confirm, confirm.

00:34:18 ◼   ► Lots of people wrote in with this.

00:34:21 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:34:21 ◼   ► As I said on the header here, it's kind of a team effort, me saying it and Marco making

00:34:25 ◼   ► an app that will rewind just long enough to make it say that over and over again.

00:34:28 ◼   ► And I was like, the person who is speaking of snow, Casey and Richmond, who couldn't fix

00:34:32 ◼   ► the situation because they were driving in the snow and they had to keep their hands on

00:34:34 ◼   ► the wheel.

00:34:35 ◼   ► Good job.

00:34:35 ◼   ► It's more important to keep your hands on the wheel.

00:34:37 ◼   ► Just, you know, eventually we'll get through this, but yeah, it wasn't just like one person

00:34:41 ◼   ► this happened to.

00:34:41 ◼   ► Uh, we had a bad coincidence of timing and speech that caused a lot of

00:34:45 ◼   ► people to go into a loop with Overcast.

00:34:47 ◼   ► That made me, every time I saw it, I felt bad, but I also, every single one of them

00:34:51 ◼   ► made me giggle.

00:34:52 ◼   ► All right.

00:34:53 ◼   ► We have a, uh, update from front of the show, underscore David Smith.

00:34:56 ◼   ► Uh, we were talking last episode about Alan's departure, Alan Dye's departure and the reaction

00:35:01 ◼   ► to the, you know, iOS 26 or all the 26 OS's.

00:35:04 ◼   ► And John, you had made some passing reference, I think, to Underscore's post about the slower

00:35:08 ◼   ► than expected rollout.

00:35:10 ◼   ► So building on that, uh, Dave in the, in 20th of November wrote last year around a week before

00:35:16 ◼   ► Thanksgiving was when Apple hit the go wide everyone button for iOS 18 updates resulting

00:35:20 ◼   ► in a rapid uptick in adoption over the following weeks.

00:35:22 ◼   ► And we'll include a link to this, uh, with the picture in the show notes.

00:35:25 ◼   ► Uh, this year we didn't get the big jump in iOS adoption right before Thanksgiving.

00:35:30 ◼   ► And again, that's in David's tweet.

00:35:32 ◼   ► And then, uh, on the 8th of December, Dave writes, aha, someone at Apple hit the update

00:35:37 ◼   ► everyone button over the weekend.

00:35:38 ◼   ► So now I'm seeing the more rapid uptick in adoption of iOS 26 that I've been hoping for.

00:35:43 ◼   ► We'll probably hit the majority mark in the next couple of days.

00:35:45 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:35:45 ◼   ► We got that feedback after we published the episode.

00:35:47 ◼   ► I, I, when we recorded it, I said, uh, the underscore hadn't seen the uptick, but as soon

00:35:52 ◼   ► as we published it, people were like saying, I'm, I'm seeing the iOS 26 getting pushed more

00:35:56 ◼   ► aggressively.

00:35:56 ◼   ► And sure enough, Underscore is like, yep, it's happening.

00:35:58 ◼   ► The line is bending.

00:36:00 ◼   ► So yeah, I don't know why they waited longer this year, maybe because the 26.0 was buggier

00:36:04 ◼   ► or whatever, but, uh, you know, or, or caution about people being cranky about the OS,

00:36:10 ◼   ► but it seems like it's happening.

00:36:12 ◼   ► So, uh, I guess, uh, over the Christmas holidays or the end of year holidays, uh, ask your relatives

00:36:18 ◼   ► what they think of iOS 26 and did they enjoy getting it pushed onto their phone?

00:36:22 ◼   ► Fun fact, it's because we brought it up.

00:36:25 ◼   ► That's why they flipped the button.

00:36:26 ◼   ► They, they heard ATP and said, Oh shit, we forgot.

00:36:29 ◼   ► And so, uh, that's why, that's why the switch got flipped.

00:36:32 ◼   ► You're welcome, everyone.

00:36:32 ◼   ► I think there was something up with, I mean, obviously we all know like 26.0 had a lot of

00:36:37 ◼   ► bugs.

00:36:37 ◼   ► Um, I, I had an overcast update that I shipped that would crash like on one or two of the

00:36:44 ◼   ► early betas of 26.1 or two.

00:36:48 ◼   ► I forget which point really, I think, I think 0.1 is 0.1.

00:36:50 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:36:51 ◼   ► So some of the early betas of 26.1, it would crash because they had added an API that I was

00:36:55 ◼   ► calling in the shipping version.

00:36:57 ◼   ► Um, but the, like the first two betas didn't have that API.

00:37:00 ◼   ► Anyway, um, what I learned from feedback emails about that and from digging in with certain

00:37:04 ◼   ► people, like trying to figure out why it was crashing for them is that it sounded like,

00:37:08 ◼   ► like their company that manages OS releases and like their IT department that approves, uh,

00:37:15 ◼   ► OS releases for their, for their phones.

00:37:17 ◼   ► Their company had mandated one of those early beta versions of 26.1.

00:37:23 ◼   ► Now I also heard the same story from at least five or six different people about like, oh,

00:37:30 ◼   ► their company approved version was this 26.1 beta and that's why they were on it.

00:37:35 ◼   ► So it seems like some big company or some, you know, standards and practices followed by some

00:37:41 ◼   ► group of companies actually had their employees installed 26.1 beta and like lock them on that

00:37:47 ◼   ► until I guess, uh, you know, a better version could be approved or whatever.

00:37:50 ◼   ► Um, so that I think is really interesting, uh, that like maybe, you know, rumor out there of

00:37:55 ◼   ► 26.0 was so bad that they, they forced their users onto this beta and then just haven't

00:37:59 ◼   ► updated it yet.

00:38:00 ◼   ► I bet it was a, I doubt it was a rumor.

00:38:01 ◼   ► It's probably because it didn't work with some part of their like, you know, intranet or whatever.

00:38:06 ◼   ► And they basically couldn't use 26.0.

00:38:08 ◼   ► So they had to stop people from using 26.0.

00:38:10 ◼   ► I mean, they could have just stopped them from using any of the 26 OSes, but maybe it was

00:38:13 ◼   ► too late and people who had upgraded.

00:38:15 ◼   ► So they forced everyone to 26.1 beta to basically stop the bleeding of whatever problem they had

00:38:20 ◼   ► with 26.0, but yeah, not an ideal situation.

00:38:23 ◼   ► Well, I mean, it could have even just been as simple as like they're buying new iPhones.

00:38:26 ◼   ► They come with 26.0.

00:38:27 ◼   ► They got it.

00:38:27 ◼   ► I got it.

00:38:28 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:38:28 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:38:28 ◼   ► They can't, they have no choice.

00:38:29 ◼   ► They can't downgrade them, but 26.0 like doesn't work with their, you know, corporate

00:38:33 ◼   ► VPN or some other has some other bug that they're like, we can't let people run this.

00:38:36 ◼   ► We have to mandate.

00:38:37 ◼   ► They use 26.1 beta and you know, guess what?

00:38:39 ◼   ► Betas are beta.

00:38:40 ◼   ► Although, but apparently still may be better than 26.0.

00:38:44 ◼   ► It was, although, can I, can I give a little, just a tiny little complaint here?

00:38:49 ◼   ► I know we're on a roll.

00:38:50 ◼   ► I just want to just a really quick complaint.

00:38:53 ◼   ► Tethering is still totally broken on my iPhone 17, bro.

00:38:56 ◼   ► It's to the point where like, I actually, I'm trying to turn it off and disable it because

00:39:01 ◼   ► I'm now just carrying around a standalone 5G hotspot.

00:39:05 ◼   ► And sometimes my laptop will attach a tethering on the phone without me realizing it instead

00:39:09 ◼   ► of joining the hotspots wifi network.

00:39:10 ◼   ► And I will, you know, be on the train and stuff will just slow down and stop working.

00:39:14 ◼   ► Oh, that's weird.

00:39:15 ◼   ► Are we in a bad reception area?

00:39:16 ◼   ► Oh no.

00:39:17 ◼   ► I see the little chain link icon.

00:39:18 ◼   ► Oh, I'm on tethering.

00:39:20 ◼   ► Why does it keep going to tethering?

00:39:21 ◼   ► So I spent all of the last few years trying to get my laptop to please automatically connect

00:39:26 ◼   ► to tethering whenever you can.

00:39:27 ◼   ► Now I have to get it to stop, please stop automatically getting to tethering because

00:39:31 ◼   ► it's so bad.

00:39:32 ◼   ► It's completely broken.

00:39:34 ◼   ► I have no idea what's up.

00:39:37 ◼   ► If it's my phone, if it's AT&T, I've never had this problem with any other phone and I've

00:39:42 ◼   ► been on the same AT&T setup for a very long time, but tethering is completely broken for

00:39:47 ◼   ► me and not, not in a way that like I could ask for support because yeah, it'll work for

00:39:53 ◼   ► a while.

00:39:53 ◼   ► So like, it's not like it's not working at all.

00:39:55 ◼   ► It works for a bit and then eventually just connections start failing and timing out and

00:40:01 ◼   ► nothing happens.

00:40:02 ◼   ► And I don't know what to do about this.

00:40:04 ◼   ► I've never had an iPhone that had this problem.

00:40:07 ◼   ► And I did some quick research the other day and I found like some Reddit threads about it.

00:40:11 ◼   ► So like, I think it might be other people as well, but it didn't seem like a massively

00:40:15 ◼   ► widespread thing.

00:40:16 ◼   ► So if anybody knows what the heck am I supposed to do about this?

00:40:19 ◼   ► Please let me know.

00:40:20 ◼   ► Thanks.

00:40:22 ◼   ► We are sponsored this week by Lisa.

00:40:24 ◼   ► All right, folks, I'm going to go a little off script here.

00:40:27 ◼   ► Kind of a lot off script.

00:40:28 ◼   ► So when we get an ad read, we're told, here's the sorts of things we'd like you to talk about.

00:40:32 ◼   ► And we're often told, well, you can talk about your own experience and that's okay too.

00:40:36 ◼   ► Well, we're going to test the limits of that because let me tell you a story.

00:40:39 ◼   ► This is a 100% true story.

00:40:40 ◼   ► Like 15 years ago, Aaron and I bought a mattress at a local place here in Richmond.

00:40:44 ◼   ► It's a place that not only did they sell mattresses, but they manufactured the mattresses themselves.

00:40:47 ◼   ► I love this mattress.

00:40:49 ◼   ► However, this place went out of business.

00:40:51 ◼   ► And for like five or 10 years now, Aaron has said to me, I'd really like a new mattress.

00:40:56 ◼   ► It's time.

00:40:56 ◼   ► And even though intellectually, I know she's right.

00:40:58 ◼   ► Emotionally, I'm not ready because in part, I haven't found a mattress that I think is at

00:41:03 ◼   ► least equivalent, if not better.

00:41:04 ◼   ► Well, as part of the ad sponsorship, Lisa sent us a mattress to try and we got one sized for

00:41:10 ◼   ► Michaela's bed and I slept on it for, we slept on it for a couple nights and genuinely, this

00:41:15 ◼   ► is the first mattress I've found in 15 years that I thought, you know what?

00:41:19 ◼   ► I could sleep on this every day.

00:41:20 ◼   ► That's honest to goodness truth.

00:41:22 ◼   ► So Lisa has a lineup of beautifully crafted mattresses tailored to how you sleep.

00:41:27 ◼   ► Each mattress is designed with specific sleep positions and feel preferences in mind.

00:41:31 ◼   ► They have a litany of different options.

00:41:33 ◼   ► It's really, really great.

00:41:34 ◼   ► They have natural options, different options, hybrid options, all sorts of different stuff.

00:41:38 ◼   ► Lisa mattresses are meticulously designed and assembled in the United States of America

00:41:41 ◼   ► for exceptional quality.

00:41:42 ◼   ► Plus they back it up with free shipping, easy returns and a 120 night sleep trial.

00:41:48 ◼   ► Lisa has been tested and awarded the best hybrid mattress by New York Times' Wirecutter and

00:41:52 ◼   ► is exclusively featured by West Elm as their go-to mattress partner.

00:41:55 ◼   ► So if this sounds appealing to you and it should, what are you going to do?

00:41:58 ◼   ► You're going to go to Lisa.com for 25% off mattresses.

00:42:02 ◼   ► Plus get an extra $50 off the promo code ATP, exclusive for our listeners.

00:42:06 ◼   ► That's L-E-E-S-A.com, promo code ATP for 25% off mattresses, plus an extra $50 off.

00:42:13 ◼   ► Support our show and let Lisa know that we sent you after checkout.

00:42:16 ◼   ► So what do you do?

00:42:17 ◼   ► Like I said, you go to Lisa.com, use promo code ATP.

00:42:20 ◼   ► Thank you to Lisa for sponsoring the show.

00:42:26 ◼   ► All right, so Intel might be making chips for Apple.

00:42:30 ◼   ► We talked about this a little bit, but it's more than what we initially thought.

00:42:33 ◼   ► And also we have some feedback about it.

00:42:36 ◼   ► Tambourine Man writes,

00:42:37 ◼   ► One thing I didn't think you guys emphasized enough on the Intel-made M-series topic is that

00:42:42 ◼   ► Intel could still be a potential competitor.

00:42:44 ◼   ► Apple will be providing them with state-of-the-art chip schematics with stopping Intel from learning

00:42:49 ◼   ► a few tricks and implementing them in their x86 offerings.

00:42:51 ◼   ► That's something no TSMC customer has to worry about, and it seems like a major competitive

00:42:56 ◼   ► advantage that TSMC has.

00:42:58 ◼   ► Yeah, presumably Intel and entering the foundry business cleanly separates the foundry business

00:43:04 ◼   ► from their own chip designs, but it is a thing that you should worry about.

00:43:07 ◼   ► And also, like, obviously, you know, you can learn a lot about your competitor's chips without

00:43:11 ◼   ► them giving you the designs just by chopping the top off of them and examining them and stuff.

00:43:14 ◼   ► But yes, the schematics probably help as well.

00:43:17 ◼   ► That's, I think a lot of companies do walk that line.

00:43:21 ◼   ► I mean, Apple itself, you know, how well it does.

00:43:24 ◼   ► Like, Apple has its own apps, and yet it also accepts third-party apps.

00:43:27 ◼   ► Now, granted, it doesn't get the source code to them, but it is an advantage to know what

00:43:31 ◼   ► third parties are doing because you can see their apps in development or whatever.

00:43:34 ◼   ► And lots of other companies do this.

00:43:35 ◼   ► Microsoft has their own first-party games, as do other console developers and stuff,

00:43:40 ◼   ► and yet they also solicit third-party games.

00:43:42 ◼   ► So I don't think this is an impossible thing for Intel to deal with, but it is a much cleaner

00:43:46 ◼   ► relationship with TSMC.

00:43:47 ◼   ► It doesn't have any chips of its own, and you don't have to worry about them making them,

00:43:51 ◼   ► at least right now.

00:43:51 ◼   ► Didn't Samsung manufacture Apple's chips for a little while?

00:43:55 ◼   ► Yeah, for a long time.

00:43:56 ◼   ► Next item.

00:43:57 ◼   ► Yeah, there you go.

00:43:58 ◼   ► David Beck writes, Apple split the manufacturing for the A8 between Samsung and TSMC before switching

00:44:04 ◼   ► entirely to TSMC.

00:44:05 ◼   ► Oh, there's a graph I meant to put in here.

00:44:07 ◼   ► Maybe I'll put it in next week or whatever.

00:44:09 ◼   ► It was showing the number of manufacturers for a particular transistor or process node or

00:44:17 ◼   ► whatever, starting way back in the day of like, you know, I don't know, it's like 90 nanometers.

00:44:22 ◼   ► And, you know, they were much larger than now.

00:44:24 ◼   ► And the number of companies who manufacture the different process node sizes goes down dramatically

00:44:31 ◼   ► from like 15 to 20.

00:44:33 ◼   ► And we're currently at like two, maybe three.

00:44:36 ◼   ► And that is TSMC, Samsung.

00:44:38 ◼   ► And then on the graph, Intel was in gray, like it was grayed out.

00:44:40 ◼   ► It's like, well, technically, they might kind of sort of be doing it.

00:44:43 ◼   ► But yeah, so Samsung is is one of the last fabs standing still a little bit behind TSMC.

00:44:51 ◼   ► And Intel is maybe in the race.

00:44:53 ◼   ► But there used to be so many more, even though there was a big lead, the other ones would

00:44:57 ◼   ► eventually get on board and, you know, they weren't on at all at the same time.

00:45:00 ◼   ► But the graph is just showing who has ever made a 90 nanometer chip and had a huge list.

00:45:04 ◼   ► Who has ever made a three nanometer chip?

00:45:07 ◼   ► Way smaller list.

00:45:08 ◼   ► Gafrito Marocci writes, didn't Apple's chip boss talk about packaging being the thing to watch out for?

00:45:16 ◼   ► And that is something we talked about in the past.

00:45:20 ◼   ► We talked about it in episode 562.

00:45:23 ◼   ► And this was based on Johnny Sruji and an interview that he had.

00:45:26 ◼   ► And John has been kind enough to find a timestamp to the timestamp link for the video on YouTube.

00:45:31 ◼   ► So thank you, John.

00:45:32 ◼   ► So why are we talking about packaging in the first place?

00:45:34 ◼   ► Because on November 18th, and Alexander K. in TechPowerUp writes,

00:45:40 ◼   ► Apple Broadcom and Qualcomm are considering Intel Foundry for its advanced packaging technologies,

00:45:44 ◼   ► which could allow Intel to significantly increase its foundry revenue without manufacturing the actual silicon.

00:45:50 ◼   ► Job listings from Apple Broadcom and Qualcomm highlight Intel's Embedded Multi-Die Interconnect Bridge, or EMIB,

00:45:56 ◼   ► as a key requirement for packaging engineer positions.

00:46:00 ◼   ► Qualcomm's CEO recently stated that Intel is not an option today.

00:46:05 ◼   ► He noted that Intel's current foundry node, likely 18A, is not suitable for their mobile chips.

00:46:09 ◼   ► The main focus of the 18A node is not on mobile low-power SoCs, but rather on mid-range and high-power solutions.

00:46:15 ◼   ► However, the 18A node is seemingly not what is attracting customers like Qualcomm.

00:46:19 ◼   ► It is the packaging that Intel offers.

00:46:21 ◼   ► Last year, Broadcom tested the 18A node, but expressed disappointment.

00:46:24 ◼   ► However, now Intel's advanced packaging is emerging as a promising alternative to TSMC's COWOS and other packaging types.

00:46:31 ◼   ► Intel's Foundry advanced packaging portfolio enables designers to utilize 2D, 2.5D, and 3D building blocks to optimize cost, power, and bandwidth.

00:46:39 ◼   ► EMIB is a substrate-embedded silicon bridge that offers localized high-density die-to-die routing without the cost and area drawbacks of a full-size silicon interposer.

00:46:48 ◼   ► So this is an interesting twist on the rumor of like, oh, Intel's going to make chips.

00:46:52 ◼   ► So this is a November story.

00:46:53 ◼   ► And like, oh, actually, people are interested in Intel, not because of 18A, which some customers or at least two customers here are saying, eh, we didn't like it.

00:47:01 ◼   ► It's not great.

00:47:02 ◼   ► 18A is not what we need for mobile chips or for low-power chips.

00:47:05 ◼   ► But they have their own packaging thing, sort of like, you know, I know we've talked about these weird abbreviations that TSMC has, like COWOS and all the other ones.

00:47:13 ◼   ► Basically a way of taking a bunch of smaller dies and putting them together in an efficient manner.

00:47:18 ◼   ► It's easier to make a bunch of small dies because you have a higher chance of a small die coming out with no defects than a bigger one, right?

00:47:24 ◼   ► So if you can make a bunch of small ones and connect them, AMD has been doing that with its chiplets or whatever.

00:47:28 ◼   ► And the SOIC is a thing that TSMC is supposedly using for the M5 Pro and M5 Max.

00:47:33 ◼   ► We'll see when those are released early next year.

00:47:35 ◼   ► Intel has its EMIB thing, which is a way of stacking a bunch of dies together.

00:47:39 ◼   ► So maybe Apple is going to fab the silicon for the M6 or M7 at TSMC and then give those little dies to Intel for it to package with the EMIB thing.

00:47:51 ◼   ► And maybe that's the source of the rumor of saying, oh, Intel is going to be fabbing the M-series chips for Apple.

00:47:57 ◼   ► Maybe they're not going to be fabbing them.

00:47:58 ◼   ► Maybe they're going to be packaging them.

00:48:01 ◼   ► Lots of rumors swirling around this, but I can, you know, I'm not sure which way this will go.

00:48:05 ◼   ► But like having both Qualcomm and Broadcom say 18A fast, but not good for low power doesn't make me think, oh, that means, you know, is Apple going to make the base M-series chip on a process that's not good for low power?

00:48:19 ◼   ► Or are they just not interested in 18A?

00:48:20 ◼   ► It's really going to be 14A if Intel ever even builds those things.

00:48:24 ◼   ► So keep an eye on that.

00:48:25 ◼   ► Packaging, as Sergei says, is the place of it.

00:48:27 ◼   ► It's interesting.

00:48:28 ◼   ► I mean, the real packaging thing is like the SOIC is a packaging innovation that I'm assuming Apple will tout when the new M-series chips comes out.

00:48:35 ◼   ► We'll see if they tout that.

00:48:36 ◼   ► But everybody's trying to do something with packaging, and this is Intel's take on it.

00:48:42 ◼   ► All right, and then finally, reading from MacRumors from a few days back and Joe Rosignal over at MacRumors.

00:48:48 ◼   ► In a research note with the investment firm GF Securities this week obtained by MacRumors, analyst Jeff Poo said he and his colleagues now expect Intel to reach a supply deal with Apple for at least some non-pro iPhone chips starting in 2028.

00:49:01 ◼   ► The non-pro iPhone chips would be manufactured with Intel's future 14A process, according to Poo.

00:49:07 ◼   ► The research note did not provide any other details about these potential plans, but based on the standard time frame, Intel could start supplying Apple with the A22 chip for devices like the iPhone 20 and the iPhone 20E in around three years from now.

00:49:19 ◼   ► More rumors, not for Mac chips now, for phone chips, which are even smaller and even lower power, but this is about 14A and not 18A.

00:49:27 ◼   ► So I guess all these rumors only take place at Apple, or I keep saying Apple, if Intel actually builds and ramps up 14A and 18A to actually be able to manufacture chips.

00:49:36 ◼   ► But I would keep an eye on this.

00:49:37 ◼   ► It's pretty interesting that Apple is supposedly in talks for not just Mac stuff, which are way lower volume than the phone, but like, I guess it's not the pro chips, not the flagship flagship.

00:49:49 ◼   ► But even the non-pro phones, they sell a lot of those.

00:49:51 ◼   ► So to be talking to Intel about that is something.

00:49:53 ◼   ► All right.

00:49:54 ◼   ► And finally, for follow-up today, we had a fascinating article, actually a couple of articles from our good friend, John Gruber.

00:50:01 ◼   ► One of them is entitled Bad Die Job, which is very good.

00:50:05 ◼   ► I'm going to read a fair bit of it because a lot of it is pertinent, but it is worth, if you are not driving or whatever, it is worth having a read of this entire article.

00:50:17 ◼   ► It's a little bit on the longer side for Gruber's stuff, but it is very, very good and absolutely fascinating.

00:50:21 ◼   ► Yeah, and the reason I'm reading, put these long passages in here, because like, you just summarize it like, Gruber, not a fan of Alan Dye.

00:50:27 ◼   ► Like, that would be the quick summary.

00:50:29 ◼   ► Why do we need to have all this stuff?

00:50:30 ◼   ► I thought it was notable, and again, Casey will read some excerpts here so you get a feel for it so you don't have to read the whole thing.

00:50:36 ◼   ► Exactly how much Gruber trashes Alan Dye.

00:50:40 ◼   ► Like, he's not above, like, calling it like he sees it or whatever and being blunt, but he spent a long time saying a lot of terrible things about Alan Dye.

00:50:50 ◼   ► And we'll talk about it when you finish reading things, but just, I mean, I think in some places maybe he's a little bit unfair, but either way, this is sort of the most, I don't know, the most angry, the most vitriol I've seen from Gruber in a long time.

00:51:05 ◼   ► Right, so again, this isn't the whole article, but it gives you the general gist.

00:51:08 ◼   ► Everyone I've spoken to at Apple is happy, if not downright giddy, at the news that Stephen LeMay is replacing Dye.

00:51:15 ◼   ► LeMay is well-liked personally and deeply respected talent-wise.

00:51:18 ◼   ► Said one source in a position to know the choices, quote, I don't think there was a better choice than LeMay, quote.

00:51:23 ◼   ► The sentiment within the ranks at Apple is that today's news is almost too good to be true.

00:51:28 ◼   ► People had given up hope that Dye would ever get squeezed out, and no one expected that he'd just up and leave on his own.

00:51:33 ◼   ► If you care about design, there's nowhere to go but down after leaving Apple.

00:51:36 ◼   ► What people overlooked is the obvious.

00:51:38 ◼   ► Alan Dye doesn't actually care about design.

00:51:41 ◼   ► Shots fired.

00:51:42 ◼   ► I see the construction there in the snark.

00:51:44 ◼   ► I'm sure he does care about design.

00:51:46 ◼   ► He's just bad at it.

00:51:47 ◼   ► Or maybe the kind of design that he is better at is not software UI design.

00:51:52 ◼   ► Maybe like laying out ads in magazines.

00:51:56 ◼   ► I mean, look, he rose to a high level at Apple when he was doing the print and packaging and marketing.

00:52:02 ◼   ► He rose to a high level for a reason.

00:52:04 ◼   ► He probably is a good designer in certain ways.

00:52:07 ◼   ► And maybe he's a good designer in different types of design.

00:52:11 ◼   ► Maybe he's a good designer when working in different teams or with different people around him or above him, maybe.

00:52:17 ◼   ► But, you know, he got to a point in Apple where he was not a good designer.

00:52:21 ◼   ► And I don't necessarily blame him personally for that.

00:52:25 ◼   ► I blame Apple for putting him in that position that he shouldn't have had.

00:52:29 ◼   ► Yeah. So continuing with Gruber, the oddest thing about Alan Dye's stint leading software design is that there are effectively zero design critics who've been on his side.

00:52:37 ◼   ► The debate regarding Apple's software design over the last decade isn't between those on Dye's side and those against.

00:52:42 ◼   ► It's only a matter of debating how bad it's been and how far it's fallen from its previous remarkable highlights.

00:52:47 ◼   ► Excuse me, heights.

00:52:48 ◼   ► It's rather extraordinary in today's hyper-partisan world that there's nearly universal agreement amongst actual practitioners of user interface design that Alan Dye is a fraud who led the company deeply astray.

00:52:57 ◼   ► I'm sorry. I'm trying to get through this with a straight face.

00:52:59 ◼   ► It was a big problem inside the company, too.

00:53:02 ◼   ► I'm aware of dozens of designers who've left Apple out of frustration over the company's direction.

00:53:05 ◼   ► From the stories I'm aware of, the theme is identical.

00:53:07 ◼   ► These designers are driven to do great work.

00:53:10 ◼   ► And under Alan Dye, doing great work was no longer the guiding principle at Apple.

00:53:14 ◼   ► Designers chose to work at Apple to do the best work in the industry.

00:53:16 ◼   ► That has stopped being true under Alan Dye.

00:53:18 ◼   ► The most talented designers I know are the harshest critics of Dye's body of work and the direction in which it's been heading.

00:53:23 ◼   ► Yeah, this also echoes what we've heard elsewhere.

00:53:26 ◼   ► And we've seen some people like Louis Mantia, a great designer.

00:53:30 ◼   ► He's been blogging about it, but there's also people who don't want to speak out publicly because it's bad for career moves for a lot of people.

00:53:39 ◼   ► But we've heard from a lot of people that this is the case that it seemed, you know, during the Dye era at Apple, which did not seem like it was going to end anytime soon, it seemed like there was not a place there anymore for people who cared about user interface design the way that we all knew Apple for years ago.

00:54:01 ◼   ► Like, why do we all come to the Mac?

00:54:03 ◼   ► Why do we all love these products so much?

00:54:05 ◼   ► And why do we stick around through, you know, some of the more difficult times?

00:54:09 ◼   ► Let's be honest.

00:54:10 ◼   ► There are.

00:54:10 ◼   ► It isn't all roses.

00:54:12 ◼   ► And it's because of details and priorities and values that Alan Dye's design in user interface just didn't really practice or outright had disregard for or outright despised, it seemed.

00:54:27 ◼   ► So, and this is why, like, you know, yeah, Gruber is being pretty harsh here.

00:54:30 ◼   ► What got under Gruber's skin probably is all the years of Alan Dye's software organization or software design organization doing things that were pretty antithetical to the reason why we all love this platform and these platforms.

00:54:48 ◼   ► Especially the Mac, there's, you know, very few people besides John Syracuse maybe who love the Mac as much as John Gruber.

00:54:55 ◼   ► And, you know, to Alan Dye's design style on the Mac was really rough and outright dismissive and kind of, you know, just going through with a wrecking ball and not understanding any of it and not caring and just plowing through.

00:55:10 ◼   ► So, yeah, Gruber got fired up and, yeah, some of this, I think some of this is a little, a little harsh, but I was reading it with, you know, with popcorn, honestly.

00:55:20 ◼   ► I'm not incredibly proud of that, but I just, I loved, I love this.

00:55:27 ◼   ► It felt like an amazing expression of a lot of the frustration that I've been feeling for years.

00:55:34 ◼   ► So, I was very happy to see all of this.

00:55:36 ◼   ► Oh, goodness.

00:55:38 ◼   ► All right.

00:55:38 ◼   ► So, continuing with the other post, Alan Dye was in Tim Cook's blind spot.

00:55:42 ◼   ► I'd have thrown OpenAI in that list of companies where it would have been surprising but not shocking for Dye to leave Apple for.

00:55:48 ◼   ► But that simply wasn't possible given Johnny Ives' relationship with Sam Altman, Love Frum's collaboration with OpenAI with the IO project,

00:55:55 ◼   ► and Ives' utter disdain for Dye's talent, leadership, and personality.

00:55:59 ◼   ► Citation needed, but woof.

00:56:02 ◼   ► Yeah, I believe this is the first we are hearing about this.

00:56:05 ◼   ► I believe, I'd never heard before that, you know, what Gruber is saying that he, I guess he's heard that Johnny Ives really does not like Alan Dye or his work,

00:56:13 ◼   ► which is surprising because it seems from what we were, I think from what we were told or what was reported,

00:56:20 ◼   ► it seems like Johnny Ives is the person who put Dye in that role.

00:56:24 ◼   ► Maybe that's not true, or maybe Ives used to like him and, you know, didn't like where he went with the job.

00:56:30 ◼   ► Who knows? But that's, that's interesting news.

00:56:33 ◼   ► And that would be, you know, certainly the first time I've seen it.

00:56:36 ◼   ► Yeah. So, like I said, the reason I think this post is notable is, first, Gruber does have connections to people inside Apple.

00:56:47 ◼   ► So, I'm not, he tends not to cite his sources or do the people said like they do in Bloomberg and other things or whatever.

00:56:53 ◼   ► But suffice it to say that he does know people at Apple, people at Apple do talk to him.

00:56:58 ◼   ► So, I take seriously when he's stating as fact that like everybody he's heard from has said they didn't like Dye.

00:57:06 ◼   ► Oh, no, absolutely.

00:57:07 ◼   ► Right. And it's not just like the five people like he talks to on his podcast, but like I'm sure he's getting sources there.

00:57:12 ◼   ► Like no defenders are coming from Apple there.

00:57:16 ◼   ► And the Johnny Ive thing is another example of just dropping that in there as if it's a fact with no sourcing.

00:57:20 ◼   ► But presumably he's not basing that. He's not pulling that out of thin air.

00:57:22 ◼   ► That's coming from somewhere.

00:57:24 ◼   ► And I can imagine, you know, I was kind of having his foot out the door for a while at Apple and trying to leave.

00:57:28 ◼   ► And Tim was making him stay.

00:57:29 ◼   ► And at a certain point, you don't really get to pick who succeeds you.

00:57:32 ◼   ► You're on your way out the door.

00:57:34 ◼   ► You can give your opinion.

00:57:35 ◼   ► But the fact is you're leaving.

00:57:36 ◼   ► And so, once he's gone, maybe he didn't want Dye to be his successor.

00:57:39 ◼   ► But once you leave the company, you don't get to have a, your opinion doesn't matter anymore.

00:57:43 ◼   ► You're out of there.

00:57:44 ◼   ► They get to pick who replaces you.

00:57:46 ◼   ► So, maybe he's always been mad about that.

00:57:49 ◼   ► The other reason I think this is interesting is because I felt like I've been sort of internally flipping out,

00:57:54 ◼   ► as with a couple other selected people who I follow on Mastodon, about how, about the poor choices in the 26OS.

00:58:03 ◼   ► It's not that they're terrible.

00:58:04 ◼   ► As I've always said in the show, like, they're fine.

00:58:06 ◼   ► You'll get through it.

00:58:06 ◼   ► It's not the worst thing in the world.

00:58:07 ◼   ► It could have gone much worse, right?

00:58:08 ◼   ► But the things that are bad about them are so, like, they're like, you know, the canary in the coal mine.

00:58:15 ◼   ► And so, such glaring mistakes for no good reason that are indefensible that, yeah, they don't ruin the whole OS.

00:58:21 ◼   ► It doesn't make it super terrible.

00:58:22 ◼   ► But, like, if you, if you, the more you know about user interface design, the more you say, someone who could have done that, someone who made this decision here.

00:58:31 ◼   ► No, it doesn't ruin the OS, but it shows that they have no idea what they're doing.

00:58:34 ◼   ► And I've been just flipping out about it.

00:58:36 ◼   ► And everyone else I've seen, including Gruber, has been like, oh, the 26OSs are out there here.

00:58:40 ◼   ► They're not that bad.

00:58:41 ◼   ► It's or whatever.

00:58:41 ◼   ► And I'm like, maybe I'm the only one.

00:58:44 ◼   ► Maybe it's just me and those two other people I follow in Mastodon who just cannot believe what they've done with these OSs.

00:58:50 ◼   ► Again, not because it's so hard, terrible, it makes them unusable.

00:58:53 ◼   ► But just because, like, these mistakes are indicative of just a complete lack of understanding of what good user interface design is.

00:59:01 ◼   ► And they're just lucky that they've been made in areas that doesn't really impact the usability as much as it, you know, as it could.

00:59:08 ◼   ► Like, and I wondered why I wouldn't see more stuff from Gruber saying, I can't believe that they made these mistakes.

00:59:15 ◼   ► But I guess he was saving it all up because, I mean, some of the stuff we cut out here is, like, his opinion of, you know, in particular Tahoe and that design is just as harsh as mine and the other people.

00:59:25 ◼   ► He just hasn't been saying it.

00:59:26 ◼   ► And if you're thinking, like, what is this Alan Dye?

00:59:29 ◼   ► Everyone all of a sudden hates him, but I never heard anything about him.

00:59:31 ◼   ► Well, I'm going to say if you've listened to ATP over the last, like, several years, you've heard the name Alan Dye a lot.

00:59:38 ◼   ► Usually Marco saying he hates his guts and me saying, well, we don't know if Alan Dye is responsible for this.

00:59:43 ◼   ► I'm not that mean.

00:59:44 ◼   ► I don't, because look, I don't, I don't know the guy personally.

00:59:46 ◼   ► I don't like his work.

00:59:47 ◼   ► I know, but you were just using, you were using it as a placeholder of, like, Alan Dye's design or whatever.

00:59:52 ◼   ► And I was like, well, it's Apple's design.

00:59:54 ◼   ► How much is Alan Dye responsible for it?

00:59:56 ◼   ► But now that he's left, people are coming out of the woodwork and saying, yeah, it was totally him.

00:59:59 ◼   ► Like, it makes sense.

01:00:00 ◼   ► He was in charge of it.

01:00:01 ◼   ► But, like, it's, you know, again, it's difficult to know what's going on inside the company.

01:00:04 ◼   ► But, like, I feel like this is people who would now feel free to speak, essentially, that everyone sort of had this opinion.

01:00:13 ◼   ► And maybe Marco was free with his opinion in the past several years.

01:00:16 ◼   ► But other people were more kind of like saying, oh, you know, maybe, you know, it's just, we don't know what goes inside Apple.

01:00:22 ◼   ► I know Alan Dye is in charge, so on and so forth.

01:00:24 ◼   ► But for me, it was when he was, you know, at WDC introducing liquid glass stuff.

01:00:28 ◼   ► I was like, well, he's the face of it.

01:00:29 ◼   ► He's the public face of it now.

01:00:30 ◼   ► And shortly after, he just leaves the company.

01:00:33 ◼   ► And then everybody comes out of the woodwork and is like, no, I totally hated that guy and everything he did.

01:00:37 ◼   ► It was like, you know, it's just shocking to me.

01:00:41 ◼   ► Like, granted, this is a tiny little inside baseball world.

01:00:44 ◼   ► And the regular public thus far has not had a very strong reaction.

01:00:48 ◼   ► But as Gruber pointed on the articles I've said in the past, the more you know about this, the more you know about what makes good user interface design, the more concerning the recent changes have been.

01:00:57 ◼   ► Not because they have destroyed the products, but because they reveal the decision making to be flawed in a way that is embarrassing for a company with the history and reputation of Apple.

01:01:08 ◼   ► And so hopefully that will change.

01:01:09 ◼   ► We are sponsored this episode by Factor.

01:01:13 ◼   ► Eating well during this time of year can be really difficult because you're surrounded by temptations and all these delicious holiday foods.

01:01:20 ◼   ► And no one has time for anything because it's super busy.

01:01:23 ◼   ► So Factor is great for this.

01:01:25 ◼   ► They have chef prepped, dietician approved meals to help you stay more balanced and energized throughout the most indulgent and busy time of year.

01:01:32 ◼   ► So unlike meal kits that require a lot of prep time and stuff, Factor delivers fully prepared, ready to eat meals that you heat up and they're ready in just two minutes.

01:01:42 ◼   ► And they have a huge variety to choose from.

01:01:44 ◼   ► There's a wider selection than ever of weekly meal options, including things like premium seafood choices like salmon and shrimp at no extra cost.

01:01:50 ◼   ► They also have things like GLP-1 friendly meals, Mediterranean diet options packed with protein and healthy fats.

01:01:57 ◼   ► So when you're surrounded by holiday temptations, you can actually have really good food as your meals.

01:02:02 ◼   ► That's what Factor is great at.

01:02:03 ◼   ► They've sent me some samples over time and I've actually become a customer because I love how fast and easy Factor meals are to make.

01:02:10 ◼   ► And they go over really well with the family too.

01:02:12 ◼   ► You know, wife, kid, everyone loves the Factor meals.

01:02:15 ◼   ► They've gotten great reviews in the Armored household.

01:02:17 ◼   ► You can have all sorts of wonderful meals with Factor.

01:02:21 ◼   ► 97% of customers say that Factor helped them live a healthier life.

01:02:25 ◼   ► Real people, real results, staying on track even during this season of indulgence.

01:02:30 ◼   ► So, eat smart at factormeals.com slash ATP50off and use code ATP50off to get 50% off your first box plus free breakfast for a year.

01:02:42 ◼   ► That's code ATP50off at factormeals.com for 50% off your first box plus free breakfast for one year.

01:02:51 ◼   ► This exclusive holiday offer won't last, so lock in your savings before the new year rush.

01:02:56 ◼   ► Offer only valid for new Factor customers with code and qualifying auto-renewing subscription purchase.

01:03:01 ◼   ► Thank you so much to Factor for sponsoring our show.

01:03:07 ◼   ► And speaking of departures, moving out of follow-up and into topics, Apple has announced more executive transitions.

01:03:15 ◼   ► Tis the season.

01:03:15 ◼   ► Tis the season to be lonely.

01:03:18 ◼   ► Apple today, on December 12th, announced that Jennifer Newstead will become Apple's general counsel on March 1, 2026,

01:03:24 ◼   ► following a transition of duties from Kate Adams, who has served as Apple's general counsel since 2017.

01:03:28 ◼   ► She will join Apple as senior vice president in January, reporting to CEO Tim Cook.

01:03:33 ◼   ► In addition, Lisa Jackson, vice president for environment policy and social initiatives, will retire in late January, 2026.

01:03:39 ◼   ► The government affairs organization will transition to Adams, who will oversee the team until her retirement late next year, after which will be led by Newstead.

01:03:48 ◼   ► Newstead's title will become senior vice president, general counsel in government affairs, reflecting the combining of the two organizations.

01:03:55 ◼   ► The environment and social initiatives teams will report to Apple chief operating officer, Sabi Khan.

01:04:00 ◼   ► Newstead was most recently the chief legal officer of Meta, whoops, and previously served as legal advisor of the U.S. Department of State,

01:04:07 ◼   ► where she led the legal team responsible for advising the secretary of state on legal issues affecting the conduct of U.S. foreign relations.

01:04:14 ◼   ► She held a range of other positions in government earlier in her career as well, including as general counsel of the White House Office of Management and Budget,

01:04:20 ◼   ► as a principal deputy assistant attorney general in the Office of Legal Policy at the Department of Justice,

01:04:25 ◼   ► as associate White House counsel, and a law clerk to somebody.

01:04:29 ◼   ► She also spent a dozen years at some law firm where she advised global corporations on a wide variety of issues.

01:04:35 ◼   ► She got her undergraduate at Harvard and her law degree at Yale, so not a dummy.

01:04:40 ◼   ► Gurman writes,

01:04:42 ◼   ► Jennifer Newstead helped oversee Meta's successful antitrust battle with the U.S. Federal Trade Commission,

01:04:46 ◼   ► experience that's likely to prove useful in Apple's own legal fight with the Justice Department over alleged anti-competitive practices.

01:04:52 ◼   ► Anonymous writes,

01:04:53 ◼   ► Apple's corporate values were supposedly the environment and privacy.

01:04:57 ◼   ► Today, Apple eliminated the VP of Environment position and hired as SVP someone who not only worked at Facebook,

01:05:04 ◼   ► but also helped write the U.S. Patriot Act,

01:05:06 ◼   ► which is one of the most egregious violations of privacy among other civil rights in U.S. history.

01:05:10 ◼   ► Cool, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool.

01:05:12 ◼   ► So this change here,

01:05:14 ◼   ► all right,

01:05:15 ◼   ► so more people leaving.

01:05:16 ◼   ► Lisa Jackson,

01:05:16 ◼   ► you've seen her in videos increasingly as her career went on at Apple.

01:05:20 ◼   ► She was on the roof.

01:05:21 ◼   ► Was she on the roof of the building?

01:05:22 ◼   ► I forget.

01:05:22 ◼   ► Anyway,

01:05:23 ◼   ► her face has been in keynotes more and more as her career has gone on,

01:05:27 ◼   ► and she's the environment person leading that whole initiative.

01:05:30 ◼   ► She is retiring,

01:05:31 ◼   ► not leaving for another company,

01:05:32 ◼   ► and she's having someone else take over her position,

01:05:35 ◼   ► but then that person is going to retire,

01:05:36 ◼   ► and then all that environmental stuff is getting sort of wrapped up and split up,

01:05:40 ◼   ► and then the general counsel,

01:05:40 ◼   ► as Jennifer Newstead,

01:05:41 ◼   ► is taking over from the,

01:05:42 ◼   ► as the new general counsel in this new combined position,

01:05:46 ◼   ► blah, blah, blah.

01:05:47 ◼   ► Jennifer Newstead is making a lot of people angry

01:05:50 ◼   ► because she worked on the Patriot Act,

01:05:52 ◼   ► which people don't follow U.S. politics,

01:05:54 ◼   ► is some panic legislation that our legislature passed

01:05:58 ◼   ► when everyone was scared of terrorists to say,

01:06:01 ◼   ► the government should be allowed to look at all your crap.

01:06:03 ◼   ► Terrorists.

01:06:05 ◼   ► It's either terrorists or like children are in danger.

01:06:07 ◼   ► Anyway,

01:06:07 ◼   ► incredibly,

01:06:08 ◼   ► why it's relevant to Apple is,

01:06:10 ◼   ► it's a privacy type thing.

01:06:11 ◼   ► like the Patriot Act was,

01:06:13 ◼   ► it's named,

01:06:14 ◼   ► it's right out of a movie,

01:06:15 ◼   ► the Patriot Act,

01:06:16 ◼   ► Eagle Screech,

01:06:17 ◼   ► you know,

01:06:18 ◼   ► it's got a name that,

01:06:19 ◼   ► who can be against the Patriot Act

01:06:21 ◼   ► where the government gets to,

01:06:22 ◼   ► you know,

01:06:22 ◼   ► pry into all your information and crap.

01:06:25 ◼   ► It was,

01:06:25 ◼   ► it was the perfect George W.

01:06:27 ◼   ► Bush era law name.

01:06:28 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:06:29 ◼   ► And so anyway,

01:06:30 ◼   ► she was part of that.

01:06:32 ◼   ► She's worked for the Trump administration.

01:06:33 ◼   ► She worked for Meta for a long time.

01:06:35 ◼   ► She defended Meta in the FTC case,

01:06:38 ◼   ► successfully defended antitrust against the FTC.

01:06:40 ◼   ► So people were like,

01:06:41 ◼   ► do we want to be,

01:06:42 ◼   ► why is Apple hiring someone for Meta,

01:06:44 ◼   ► which Apple hates,

01:06:46 ◼   ► who worked for these Republican administrations

01:06:49 ◼   ► who worked on legislature that was privacy invasive

01:06:51 ◼   ► that Apple would not like,

01:06:53 ◼   ► you know,

01:06:53 ◼   ► because Apple is usually fighting the government

01:06:55 ◼   ► when they ask for information.

01:06:56 ◼   ► And Lisa Jackson,

01:06:59 ◼   ► everybody loved Lisa Jackson

01:07:00 ◼   ► and she's doing environment stuff.

01:07:01 ◼   ► And now they're like,

01:07:02 ◼   ► essentially eliminated that position.

01:07:03 ◼   ► Now they don't have an environment person.

01:07:05 ◼   ► It's just all going to be like,

01:07:06 ◼   ► put those responsibilities pushed elsewhere.

01:07:09 ◼   ► And we'll talk about more about that in overtime.

01:07:11 ◼   ► My take on this is like,

01:07:13 ◼   ► general counselor,

01:07:15 ◼   ► like the big lawyer at a hojillion dollar company,

01:07:19 ◼   ► like Apple,

01:07:20 ◼   ► I should just say trillion.

01:07:21 ◼   ► It's a big enough number and it's actual real.

01:07:23 ◼   ► Correct.

01:07:23 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:07:24 ◼   ► It's a real thing.

01:07:25 ◼   ► multi-trillion dollar company like Apple.

01:07:26 ◼   ► I do think that her relevant experience

01:07:32 ◼   ► defending giant companies against government action

01:07:36 ◼   ► and succeeding

01:07:37 ◼   ► overrides any of Apple's concerns about her having worked for Meta

01:07:42 ◼   ► or Republican administrations

01:07:44 ◼   ► or worked on the Patriot Act.

01:07:45 ◼   ► Because if you're looking for the general counsel,

01:07:50 ◼   ► the big lawyer at your company

01:07:52 ◼   ► to provide moral clarity,

01:07:55 ◼   ► that's,

01:07:56 ◼   ► you're probably looking in the wrong place.

01:07:58 ◼   ► People hire lawyers because they have experienced knowledge and win cases.

01:08:03 ◼   ► You kind of want,

01:08:05 ◼   ► it's like everyone,

01:08:05 ◼   ► everyone hates everyone else's lawyer,

01:08:06 ◼   ► but everyone's their lawyer to be the biggest,

01:08:08 ◼   ► you know,

01:08:09 ◼   ► jerk in the entire world.

01:08:10 ◼   ► Because,

01:08:11 ◼   ► you know,

01:08:12 ◼   ► that's true of people,

01:08:15 ◼   ► but it's like doubly true of corporations.

01:08:17 ◼   ► Like,

01:08:18 ◼   ► do you know the issues involved?

01:08:20 ◼   ► Can you win these cases?

01:08:22 ◼   ► And Apple has

01:08:23 ◼   ► plenty of cases

01:08:24 ◼   ► where governments

01:08:25 ◼   ► are trying to apply regulations on them

01:08:28 ◼   ► and fining them

01:08:29 ◼   ► and suing them.

01:08:29 ◼   ► like for what you,

01:08:31 ◼   ► for however much you might hate Meta or whatever,

01:08:33 ◼   ► Apple,

01:08:33 ◼   ► I mean,

01:08:34 ◼   ► maybe it's just we talk about them so much in the show.

01:08:35 ◼   ► Like every government in the world is on their case

01:08:38 ◼   ► for a lot of legitimate reasons

01:08:40 ◼   ► and maybe some less ones or whatever.

01:08:43 ◼   ► So I kind of think,

01:08:45 ◼   ► yeah,

01:08:46 ◼   ► if there's one person

01:08:47 ◼   ► you're going to hire in your company

01:08:49 ◼   ► where you don't really care

01:08:51 ◼   ► like what kind of other bad things they worked for,

01:08:56 ◼   ► I mean,

01:08:56 ◼   ► you can say Facebook is,

01:08:57 ◼   ► you know,

01:08:58 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:08:58 ◼   ► I get,

01:08:59 ◼   ► she worked for like the first Trump administration,

01:09:01 ◼   ► but not the second,

01:09:01 ◼   ► I think.

01:09:02 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:09:02 ◼   ► She worked for George W. Bush.

01:09:03 ◼   ► She's on the Patriot.

01:09:04 ◼   ► Like,

01:09:04 ◼   ► I get why people are mad.

01:09:06 ◼   ► We would prefer a lawyer

01:09:08 ◼   ► who is a wonderful person

01:09:10 ◼   ► who,

01:09:10 ◼   ► you know,

01:09:10 ◼   ► helps small children and the elderly

01:09:12 ◼   ► and also wins cases against the government

01:09:15 ◼   ► when they sue big,

01:09:16 ◼   ► big companies.

01:09:18 ◼   ► But I think this is just the nature of the beast

01:09:20 ◼   ► that for,

01:09:22 ◼   ► for any,

01:09:22 ◼   ► for employees that you're hiring,

01:09:23 ◼   ► this particular role,

01:09:25 ◼   ► the biggest,

01:09:26 ◼   ► baddest lawyer in your company,

01:09:27 ◼   ► it seems like you would have to sort of

01:09:31 ◼   ► look aside of the fact,

01:09:34 ◼   ► of the fact they worked at Meta

01:09:35 ◼   ► versus,

01:09:35 ◼   ► for example,

01:09:36 ◼   ► let me hire,

01:09:37 ◼   ► you know,

01:09:38 ◼   ► a new head designer

01:09:39 ◼   ► and let me get it from

01:09:40 ◼   ► one of Gruber's favorite punching bags,

01:09:41 ◼   ► Amazon,

01:09:42 ◼   ► which I think in his article he described

01:09:43 ◼   ► as a company that has no interest

01:09:44 ◼   ► in design whatsoever.

01:09:45 ◼   ► Like,

01:09:45 ◼   ► if Apple brought in a new head of design

01:09:48 ◼   ► and brought,

01:09:48 ◼   ► pulled them from Amazon,

01:09:49 ◼   ► we'd be saying,

01:09:50 ◼   ► why are you pulling a new designer

01:09:51 ◼   ► from there?

01:09:51 ◼   ► But Apple pulling a new general counsel

01:09:54 ◼   ► from Meta?

01:09:55 ◼   ► Meh.

01:09:57 ◼   ► That's my take.

01:09:57 ◼   ► Yeah,

01:09:58 ◼   ► I mean,

01:09:59 ◼   ► I don't really have strong feelings

01:10:01 ◼   ► about it.

01:10:02 ◼   ► I don't have strong feelings

01:10:03 ◼   ► about the lawyer

01:10:04 ◼   ► rejiggering.

01:10:06 ◼   ► I have somewhat strong feelings

01:10:08 ◼   ► about Lisa Jackson retiring.

01:10:10 ◼   ► I don't like that

01:10:11 ◼   ► we're just kind of letting

01:10:13 ◼   ► that role fizzle.

01:10:14 ◼   ► I get it.

01:10:15 ◼   ► I get it.

01:10:16 ◼   ► Maybe it's like that

01:10:17 ◼   ► because there's no one else

01:10:18 ◼   ► who can do what she's done.

01:10:20 ◼   ► Like,

01:10:20 ◼   ► that's such a weird position.

01:10:21 ◼   ► I think she was so uniquely

01:10:22 ◼   ► suited for it.

01:10:23 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:10:24 ◼   ► I mean,

01:10:24 ◼   ► it is weird and concerning,

01:10:26 ◼   ► though.

01:10:26 ◼   ► And again,

01:10:27 ◼   ► we'll talk about this more

01:10:28 ◼   ► in overtime,

01:10:28 ◼   ► but like,

01:10:28 ◼   ► because we're going to talk

01:10:30 ◼   ► about Apple and the environment,

01:10:31 ◼   ► but that's another thing

01:10:32 ◼   ► people are upset about.

01:10:33 ◼   ► Yeah,

01:10:33 ◼   ► because wasn't the position

01:10:34 ◼   ► created for her?

01:10:35 ◼   ► Like,

01:10:35 ◼   ► wasn't she the first person?

01:10:36 ◼   ► Yes,

01:10:37 ◼   ► exactly.

01:10:37 ◼   ► It was basically to get her

01:10:38 ◼   ► to work at Apple,

01:10:39 ◼   ► you're going to be this new thing.

01:10:40 ◼   ► And now when she's leaving,

01:10:41 ◼   ► the position is going with her.

01:10:42 ◼   ► So we'll see how that turns out.

01:10:43 ◼   ► Yeah,

01:10:43 ◼   ► I mean,

01:10:44 ◼   ► you know,

01:10:44 ◼   ► people are trying to,

01:10:45 ◼   ► you know,

01:10:46 ◼   ► ascribe it to,

01:10:46 ◼   ► you know,

01:10:47 ◼   ► in Trump era America,

01:10:49 ◼   ► you know,

01:10:49 ◼   ► where Apple's trying to get rid

01:10:51 ◼   ► of environmental stuff.

01:10:51 ◼   ► I don't think this says that.

01:10:53 ◼   ► And you know,

01:10:54 ◼   ► like,

01:10:54 ◼   ► I'd be the first person

01:10:56 ◼   ► to,

01:10:56 ◼   ► you know,

01:10:57 ◼   ► throw Tim Cook under the bus

01:10:58 ◼   ► for that kind of thing.

01:10:59 ◼   ► But I don't think this means that.

01:11:01 ◼   ► But,

01:11:02 ◼   ► you know,

01:11:02 ◼   ► we'll see.

01:11:03 ◼   ► Like,

01:11:03 ◼   ► what I suspect

01:11:05 ◼   ► is that

01:11:06 ◼   ► she

01:11:07 ◼   ► wanted to retire

01:11:08 ◼   ► for whatever her reasons were.

01:11:10 ◼   ► There's,

01:11:11 ◼   ► you can guess.

01:11:12 ◼   ► There's plenty of reasons

01:11:13 ◼   ► why somebody

01:11:14 ◼   ► who works for,

01:11:15 ◼   ► you know,

01:11:15 ◼   ► works on environmental issues

01:11:17 ◼   ► in a prominent role

01:11:19 ◼   ► in America right now

01:11:20 ◼   ► might say,

01:11:21 ◼   ► you know what,

01:11:21 ◼   ► enough is enough

01:11:22 ◼   ► and just retire.

01:11:23 ◼   ► But,

01:11:24 ◼   ► I think

01:11:25 ◼   ► there's enough

01:11:26 ◼   ► of environmental care

01:11:29 ◼   ► built into Apple

01:11:30 ◼   ► that,

01:11:31 ◼   ► like,

01:11:32 ◼   ► I'm not that worried

01:11:33 ◼   ► about this

01:11:33 ◼   ► indicating anything

01:11:34 ◼   ► either way.

01:11:34 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:11:36 ◼   ► So,

01:11:36 ◼   ► all right,

01:11:37 ◼   ► that's not the only news.

01:11:38 ◼   ► On December 6th,

01:11:40 ◼   ► reading from Mark Gurman,

01:11:42 ◼   ► Johnny Shruji,

01:11:43 ◼   ► the Senior Vice President

01:11:44 ◼   ► of Hardware Technologies

01:11:45 ◼   ► and one of Apple's

01:11:46 ◼   ► most respected executives,

01:11:48 ◼   ► recently told Tim Cook

01:11:49 ◼   ► that he is seriously

01:11:50 ◼   ► considering leaving

01:11:51 ◼   ► in the near future,

01:11:51 ◼   ► according to people

01:11:52 ◼   ► with knowledge of the matter.

01:11:53 ◼   ► Shruji,

01:11:53 ◼   ► the architect of Apple's

01:11:55 ◼   ► prized in-house chips effort,

01:11:56 ◼   ► has informed colleagues

01:11:57 ◼   ► that he intends to join

01:11:58 ◼   ► another company

01:11:59 ◼   ► if he ultimately departs.

01:12:00 ◼   ► Cook has been working

01:12:01 ◼   ► aggressively to retain him,

01:12:02 ◼   ► an effort that included

01:12:03 ◼   ► a substantial pay package

01:12:04 ◼   ► and the potential

01:12:05 ◼   ► of more responsibility

01:12:06 ◼   ► down the road.

01:12:06 ◼   ► One scenario floated

01:12:07 ◼   ► internally by some executives

01:12:09 ◼   ► involves elevating him

01:12:10 ◼   ► into the role

01:12:10 ◼   ► of Chief Technology Officer.

01:12:11 ◼   ► But that change

01:12:13 ◼   ► would likely require

01:12:14 ◼   ► John Ternus

01:12:14 ◼   ► to be promoted CEO,

01:12:15 ◼   ► a step the company

01:12:16 ◼   ► may not be ready to take.

01:12:17 ◼   ► And some people within Apple

01:12:18 ◼   ► have said that Shruji

01:12:19 ◼   ► would prefer not to work

01:12:20 ◼   ► under a different CEO,

01:12:20 ◼   ► even with an expanded title.

01:12:22 ◼   ► If Shruji does depart,

01:12:24 ◼   ► the company would likely

01:12:24 ◼   ► tap one of his two

01:12:25 ◼   ► top lieutenants

01:12:26 ◼   ► to replace him.

01:12:27 ◼   ► Then, two days later,

01:12:29 ◼   ► on December 8th,

01:12:30 ◼   ► a new article,

01:12:31 ◼   ► Apple chip chief

01:12:32 ◼   ► tells staff

01:12:33 ◼   ► he's not leaving

01:12:34 ◼   ► anytime soon.

01:12:34 ◼   ► Johnny Shruji

01:12:35 ◼   ► told staff on Monday

01:12:36 ◼   ► that he'll stay

01:12:37 ◼   ► at the iPhone maker

01:12:38 ◼   ► for now.

01:12:38 ◼   ► Quote,

01:12:38 ◼   ► I know you've been reading

01:12:40 ◼   ► all kinds of rumors

01:12:40 ◼   ► and speculations

01:12:41 ◼   ► about my future at Apple

01:12:42 ◼   ► and I feel that you need

01:12:43 ◼   ► to hear from me directly,

01:12:43 ◼   ► he said in a memo

01:12:44 ◼   ► to his division.

01:12:45 ◼   ► I love my team

01:12:46 ◼   ► and I love my job at Apple

01:12:47 ◼   ► and I don't plan on

01:12:48 ◼   ► leaving anytime soon.

01:12:49 ◼   ► That's also Gruber,

01:12:50 ◼   ► by the way.

01:12:50 ◼   ► So Gruber,

01:12:51 ◼   ► not Gruber,

01:12:52 ◼   ► Gurman,

01:12:52 ◼   ► Gurman on December 6th

01:12:53 ◼   ► says,

01:12:53 ◼   ► oh,

01:12:53 ◼   ► Suruji might be leaving

01:12:54 ◼   ► and then on December 8th,

01:12:56 ◼   ► Gurman also then follows up

01:12:58 ◼   ► and says,

01:12:58 ◼   ► never mind.

01:12:59 ◼   ► You know,

01:13:00 ◼   ► Suruji sent this memo

01:13:01 ◼   ► and said that he's not leaving.

01:13:03 ◼   ► so good on Gurman for correcting

01:13:05 ◼   ► himself quickly,

01:13:06 ◼   ► although again,

01:13:07 ◼   ► I'm not necessarily sure

01:13:08 ◼   ► this is a correction

01:13:09 ◼   ► because I don't think

01:13:09 ◼   ► these stories are contradictory.

01:13:10 ◼   ► When you get information

01:13:12 ◼   ► like this,

01:13:13 ◼   ► it may be about the past.

01:13:15 ◼   ► It may be that Suruji

01:13:17 ◼   ► did express a potential desire

01:13:19 ◼   ► and Cook did work aggressively

01:13:20 ◼   ► to retain him

01:13:21 ◼   ► and succeeded in retaining him.

01:13:23 ◼   ► And then when the story breaks,

01:13:26 ◼   ► this is all in the past

01:13:27 ◼   ► and Suruji writes a memo

01:13:29 ◼   ► and says,

01:13:30 ◼   ► I'm not going anywhere.

01:13:31 ◼   ► I'm staying here.

01:13:31 ◼   ► I love you all.

01:13:32 ◼   ► Everything's great

01:13:33 ◼   ► because it is.

01:13:33 ◼   ► It's true

01:13:34 ◼   ► because Tim Cook retained him

01:13:35 ◼   ► by giving,

01:13:36 ◼   ► you know,

01:13:37 ◼   ► convincing him to stay.

01:13:38 ◼   ► Tim Cook reportedly

01:13:40 ◼   ► convinced Johnny Ive to stay

01:13:41 ◼   ► way longer than we all wish he did.

01:13:42 ◼   ► And so maybe that's a thing

01:13:43 ◼   ► that he's good at

01:13:44 ◼   ► and maybe that's a thing

01:13:45 ◼   ► that happened.

01:13:45 ◼   ► I,

01:13:47 ◼   ► I,

01:13:48 ◼   ► what I've heard

01:13:49 ◼   ► is that everyone's saying,

01:13:50 ◼   ► oh,

01:13:50 ◼   ► Gurman was the first person

01:13:51 ◼   ► to break this.

01:13:52 ◼   ► Johnny Suruji

01:13:52 ◼   ► might be leaving story.

01:13:53 ◼   ► And I,

01:13:54 ◼   ► I seem to recall

01:13:55 ◼   ► seeing it multiple times,

01:13:56 ◼   ► probably also from Gurman.

01:13:57 ◼   ► So this may have been

01:13:58 ◼   ► a thing that was

01:13:59 ◼   ► sort of,

01:14:00 ◼   ► you know,

01:14:00 ◼   ► and I think

01:14:02 ◼   ► maybe we talked about it

01:14:02 ◼   ► on the show

01:14:03 ◼   ► and I was like,

01:14:03 ◼   ► oh,

01:14:03 ◼   ► if he's going to,

01:14:04 ◼   ► oh no,

01:14:04 ◼   ► it was in a Slack channel

01:14:05 ◼   ► somewhere.

01:14:05 ◼   ► I'm sorry.

01:14:05 ◼   ► Anyway,

01:14:06 ◼   ► my online world

01:14:08 ◼   ► is mixed together

01:14:09 ◼   ► very much these days.

01:14:11 ◼   ► the idea was like,

01:14:12 ◼   ► oh,

01:14:12 ◼   ► Suruji might be leaving.

01:14:13 ◼   ► But if he left,

01:14:15 ◼   ► would he really go

01:14:16 ◼   ► to another company

01:14:17 ◼   ► or wouldn't he just retire?

01:14:18 ◼   ► Because again,

01:14:18 ◼   ► all these people

01:14:19 ◼   ► at a high level

01:14:20 ◼   ► at Apple

01:14:20 ◼   ► who've been there for years,

01:14:21 ◼   ► they're all fabulously wealthy

01:14:22 ◼   ► because the salaries

01:14:23 ◼   ► are high at that level

01:14:24 ◼   ► and they have Apple stock

01:14:25 ◼   ► and Apple stock

01:14:26 ◼   ► has been going up.

01:14:26 ◼   ► So all these people

01:14:27 ◼   ► can retire easily.

01:14:29 ◼   ► And Suruji is of the age,

01:14:30 ◼   ► you're like,

01:14:31 ◼   ► oh,

01:14:31 ◼   ► you probably want to retire,

01:14:32 ◼   ► right?

01:14:32 ◼   ► You got your money,

01:14:33 ◼   ► enjoy,

01:14:33 ◼   ► you know,

01:14:34 ◼   ► you don't have to wait

01:14:35 ◼   ► until you're like

01:14:36 ◼   ► super duper old to retire.

01:14:37 ◼   ► Why would he go work

01:14:38 ◼   ► at another company?

01:14:40 ◼   ► And as Gruber pointed out

01:14:41 ◼   ► in the recent episode

01:14:41 ◼   ► of Dithering,

01:14:42 ◼   ► where would he go

01:14:43 ◼   ► that's more exciting

01:14:44 ◼   ► in terms of chip design

01:14:45 ◼   ► than Apple?

01:14:45 ◼   ► Because Apple is

01:14:46 ◼   ► one of the leaders

01:14:48 ◼   ► in the kind of chip design

01:14:50 ◼   ► that he's doing,

01:14:51 ◼   ► unless he wants to do

01:14:51 ◼   ► a different kind of chip design

01:14:52 ◼   ► that Apple doesn't do.

01:14:53 ◼   ► And everyone keeps saying,

01:14:56 ◼   ► you know,

01:14:56 ◼   ► this is,

01:14:56 ◼   ► he's,

01:14:57 ◼   ► talk about someone

01:14:58 ◼   ► who's successful.

01:14:58 ◼   ► Part of the Apple,

01:15:00 ◼   ► part of the company,

01:15:00 ◼   ► part of Apple

01:15:01 ◼   ► that's been doing really well

01:15:02 ◼   ► is the chip design

01:15:03 ◼   ► and he's the head of that.

01:15:04 ◼   ► So he's been knocking

01:15:06 ◼   ► it out of the park.

01:15:06 ◼   ► Why would he,

01:15:07 ◼   ► you know,

01:15:07 ◼   ► is he leaving at top?

01:15:09 ◼   ► Where would he go?

01:15:09 ◼   ► where he thinks

01:15:10 ◼   ► he's going to top himself?

01:15:11 ◼   ► And to that,

01:15:12 ◼   ► I would say,

01:15:12 ◼   ► yeah,

01:15:13 ◼   ► Apple's chip design

01:15:13 ◼   ► has absolutely been

01:15:14 ◼   ► knocking it out of the park.

01:15:15 ◼   ► I think Gruber said,

01:15:16 ◼   ► no one would have

01:15:17 ◼   ► anything bad to say

01:15:18 ◼   ► about his work.

01:15:19 ◼   ► And I was like,

01:15:19 ◼   ► well,

01:15:19 ◼   ► there is one area

01:15:21 ◼   ► where the Johnny

01:15:23 ◼   ► Shuruchi regime

01:15:25 ◼   ► has failed to produce.

01:15:27 ◼   ► Oh no.

01:15:27 ◼   ► And it was a thing

01:15:29 ◼   ► that they were trying

01:15:30 ◼   ► to do when they

01:15:31 ◼   ► switched from Intel

01:15:33 ◼   ► to Apple Silicon.

01:15:33 ◼   ► They had plans

01:15:34 ◼   ► to replace

01:15:35 ◼   ► all the Intel chips

01:15:36 ◼   ► with even better ones

01:15:38 ◼   ► made with Apple Silicon.

01:15:39 ◼   ► And they did that

01:15:40 ◼   ► for every chip

01:15:41 ◼   ► except for the ones

01:15:41 ◼   ► in the Mac Pro.

01:15:42 ◼   ► And they had planned it.

01:15:43 ◼   ► There was rumors,

01:15:44 ◼   ► there was designs,

01:15:44 ◼   ► there was diagrams,

01:15:45 ◼   ► they were going to do it

01:15:46 ◼   ► and they've just never,

01:15:47 ◼   ► ever,

01:15:47 ◼   ► ever done it.

01:15:48 ◼   ► Nobody cares about that.

01:15:49 ◼   ► I get it.

01:15:50 ◼   ► I get nobody cares.

01:15:51 ◼   ► And yes,

01:15:51 ◼   ► Johnny Shuruchi

01:15:52 ◼   ► is a champion

01:15:53 ◼   ► of the world

01:15:54 ◼   ► and he's done

01:15:54 ◼   ► some amazing things

01:15:55 ◼   ► for the chips

01:15:55 ◼   ► that actually matter

01:15:57 ◼   ► to Apple.

01:15:57 ◼   ► So he gets an A plus

01:15:59 ◼   ► first place gold medal.

01:16:00 ◼   ► I give it to him,

01:16:02 ◼   ► but it is not true

01:16:03 ◼   ► to say that there

01:16:04 ◼   ► is nothing bad

01:16:04 ◼   ► you can say

01:16:05 ◼   ► about Johnny Shuruchi's

01:16:06 ◼   ► time at Apple.

01:16:06 ◼   ► There is one tiny little thing

01:16:08 ◼   ► that I personally

01:16:08 ◼   ► can say about it.

01:16:09 ◼   ► You are the only human

01:16:10 ◼   ► that has anything bad to say.

01:16:11 ◼   ► I mean,

01:16:11 ◼   ► here's the thing.

01:16:12 ◼   ► They plan to do it,

01:16:13 ◼   ► right?

01:16:13 ◼   ► It's not just like me

01:16:14 ◼   ► on the outside wishing a thing.

01:16:15 ◼   ► It's a thing that was

01:16:16 ◼   ► on their roadmap

01:16:17 ◼   ► and they just never did it.

01:16:18 ◼   ► So it's not like

01:16:19 ◼   ► they decided

01:16:20 ◼   ► we're not going to do this.

01:16:21 ◼   ► They wanted to do it.

01:16:22 ◼   ► They tried to do it.

01:16:23 ◼   ► They have not been able to do it.

01:16:24 ◼   ► So in that way,

01:16:25 ◼   ► it is one of those

01:16:26 ◼   ► very, very minor

01:16:27 ◼   ► sort of internal failures.

01:16:28 ◼   ► Kind of like

01:16:29 ◼   ► making their own modem chips,

01:16:30 ◼   ► which they wanted to do

01:16:31 ◼   ► for a long time

01:16:32 ◼   ► and for a long time

01:16:33 ◼   ► they failed to do

01:16:34 ◼   ► and it took them,

01:16:34 ◼   ► they took them a while

01:16:35 ◼   ► but they eventually did do it.

01:16:36 ◼   ► It's a thing they wanted to do.

01:16:37 ◼   ► I think Apple still potentially

01:16:40 ◼   ► wants to do something like this

01:16:43 ◼   ► to make a higher power chip

01:16:44 ◼   ► or whatever,

01:16:44 ◼   ► but like,

01:16:45 ◼   ► and you know,

01:16:45 ◼   ► again,

01:16:45 ◼   ► the rumors were

01:16:46 ◼   ► that it's not anywhere

01:16:46 ◼   ► on their own map

01:16:47 ◼   ► until like the M7

01:16:48 ◼   ► or something,

01:16:48 ◼   ► which we were rapidly approaching

01:16:49 ◼   ► because time passes.

01:16:51 ◼   ► So that's why I think

01:16:54 ◼   ► it's fair to put

01:16:55 ◼   ► a tiny little ding

01:16:56 ◼   ► on the otherwise

01:16:58 ◼   ► sterling record

01:16:59 ◼   ► to say,

01:16:59 ◼   ► this is a thing

01:17:00 ◼   ► you were actually tasked with

01:17:02 ◼   ► that the company wanted to do

01:17:03 ◼   ► that it makes sense

01:17:05 ◼   ► for you to want to do

01:17:06 ◼   ► because you're transitioning

01:17:07 ◼   ► from one set of chips

01:17:08 ◼   ► to a new one

01:17:08 ◼   ► and you want to have

01:17:09 ◼   ► replacements that are better

01:17:10 ◼   ► than all the ones

01:17:11 ◼   ► you had before

01:17:11 ◼   ► in all possible ways

01:17:12 ◼   ► and this one little area

01:17:13 ◼   ► that doesn't even matter.

01:17:14 ◼   ► I know it's an area

01:17:16 ◼   ► where it failed.

01:17:16 ◼   ► But anyway,

01:17:17 ◼   ► I would have expected

01:17:18 ◼   ► him to retire.

01:17:19 ◼   ► Like,

01:17:20 ◼   ► why would you go

01:17:21 ◼   ► to another company?

01:17:22 ◼   ► Where are you going to go?

01:17:22 ◼   ► What have you got left to prove?

01:17:23 ◼   ► You could same thing

01:17:25 ◼   ► could be said of Johnny Ive,

01:17:26 ◼   ► but some people

01:17:26 ◼   ► just want to keep working,

01:17:27 ◼   ► right?

01:17:28 ◼   ► And so,

01:17:28 ◼   ► I mean,

01:17:29 ◼   ► who knows if that rumor is true,

01:17:30 ◼   ► but the rumor was

01:17:31 ◼   ► he was going to leave Apple

01:17:32 ◼   ► and go somewhere else

01:17:33 ◼   ► and I just,

01:17:33 ◼   ► I just can't imagine

01:17:34 ◼   ► where he would have gone.

01:17:35 ◼   ► But apparently,

01:17:35 ◼   ► according to his

01:17:37 ◼   ► intended to be leaked memo,

01:17:39 ◼   ► he loves everything there.

01:17:41 ◼   ► he's staying in Apple.

01:17:42 ◼   ► He has no plans

01:17:43 ◼   ► to leave.

01:17:44 ◼   ► But of course,

01:17:45 ◼   ► plans change every day,

01:17:46 ◼   ► so we'll keep an eye out.

01:17:47 ◼   ► All right,

01:17:48 ◼   ► going back to his

01:17:49 ◼   ► December 6th,

01:17:50 ◼   ► so the first post.

01:17:51 ◼   ► The recent shifts

01:17:52 ◼   ► are already reshaping

01:17:53 ◼   ► Apple's power structure.

01:17:54 ◼   ► More authority

01:17:55 ◼   ► is now flowing

01:17:55 ◼   ► to a quartet of executives.

01:17:57 ◼   ► Ternus serves

01:17:58 ◼   ► as chief at EQ,

01:17:59 ◼   ► software head

01:18:01 ◼   ► Craig Federighi,

01:18:02 ◼   ► and new COO Subicon.

01:18:03 ◼   ► Apple's AI efforts

01:18:05 ◼   ► have been redistributed

01:18:06 ◼   ► across its leadership

01:18:07 ◼   ► with Federighi

01:18:07 ◼   ► becoming the company's

01:18:09 ◼   ► de facto AI chief.

01:18:10 ◼   ► Ternus is also poised

01:18:11 ◼   ► to take a starring role

01:18:12 ◼   ► next year

01:18:13 ◼   ► in the celebration

01:18:13 ◼   ► of Apple's 50th anniversary,

01:18:14 ◼   ► further raising his profile.

01:18:16 ◼   ► And he's been given

01:18:16 ◼   ► more responsibility

01:18:17 ◼   ► over robotics

01:18:18 ◼   ► and smart glasses

01:18:18 ◼   ► to areas seen

01:18:20 ◼   ► as future growth drivers.

01:18:21 ◼   ► Further reorganization

01:18:22 ◼   ► is likely.

01:18:23 ◼   ► Deirdre O'Brien,

01:18:24 ◼   ► head of retail

01:18:24 ◼   ► and human resources,

01:18:25 ◼   ► has been with Apple

01:18:26 ◼   ► for more than 35 years,

01:18:27 ◼   ► while marketing chief

01:18:27 ◼   ► Greg Joswiak

01:18:28 ◼   ► has spent four decades

01:18:29 ◼   ► at the company.

01:18:30 ◼   ► Apple has elevated

01:18:31 ◼   ► the key lieutenants

01:18:32 ◼   ► under both executives,

01:18:33 ◼   ► preparing for their

01:18:34 ◼   ► eventual retirements.

01:18:35 ◼   ► Yeah, this is kind of

01:18:36 ◼   ► the story this week.

01:18:37 ◼   ► Continuing executive exodus

01:18:40 ◼   ► and reshuffling at Apple,

01:18:41 ◼   ► which I agree with

01:18:42 ◼   ► what everyone else has said.

01:18:43 ◼   ► I don't find this

01:18:44 ◼   ► as a concerning thing.

01:18:46 ◼   ► As Gruber said,

01:18:47 ◼   ► many people are giddy

01:18:47 ◼   ► about some of the departures.

01:18:50 ◼   ► But it's just an age-based turnover

01:18:52 ◼   ► and it makes sense for them

01:18:54 ◼   ► to sort of, you know,

01:18:55 ◼   ► kind of all transition

01:18:57 ◼   ► around the same time.

01:18:58 ◼   ► You know,

01:18:59 ◼   ► Tim Cook being the big departure,

01:19:00 ◼   ► which will eventually happen,

01:19:01 ◼   ► you know, whenever.

01:19:02 ◼   ► People get old.

01:19:04 ◼   ► People want to retire.

01:19:05 ◼   ► People want to move on.

01:19:06 ◼   ► People have been

01:19:06 ◼   ► in the company for decades.

01:19:07 ◼   ► It's a changing of the guard.

01:19:08 ◼   ► And I think it's all good.

01:19:11 ◼   ► Like, as I've written about,

01:19:14 ◼   ► I think there needs to be turnover,

01:19:15 ◼   ► both at the top

01:19:16 ◼   ► and everybody else underneath them.

01:19:17 ◼   ► I think it's healthy

01:19:18 ◼   ► for that to happen.

01:19:19 ◼   ► It's been great to have

01:19:20 ◼   ► the continuity of like

01:19:21 ◼   ► the old school Apple folks

01:19:24 ◼   ► sort of keeping that culture alive.

01:19:26 ◼   ► But we've seen how that can fail

01:19:29 ◼   ► in terms of maybe blind spots

01:19:32 ◼   ► for newer technologies

01:19:32 ◼   ► and not making the right moves on AI.

01:19:34 ◼   ► But also at how like

01:19:37 ◼   ► those old school people

01:19:38 ◼   ► who have been to the company

01:19:39 ◼   ► for decades being unable

01:19:41 ◼   ► to stop something like Alan Dye

01:19:43 ◼   ► ruining the user interface

01:19:44 ◼   ► to all their products, right?

01:19:45 ◼   ► So like, what is the point of like,

01:19:46 ◼   ► oh, it's great.

01:19:47 ◼   ► We have these people.

01:19:47 ◼   ► We have this continuity of leadership.

01:19:48 ◼   ► We have this leadership team

01:19:49 ◼   ► that like this page hasn't changed

01:19:51 ◼   ► in a real long time.

01:19:51 ◼   ► It's very stable.

01:19:52 ◼   ► These people have been with the company.

01:19:53 ◼   ► They really know the spirit of Apple.

01:19:54 ◼   ► The spirit of Apple

01:19:55 ◼   ► doesn't do anybody any good

01:19:57 ◼   ► unless it manifests

01:19:58 ◼   ► in preventing the company

01:20:01 ◼   ► from doing things

01:20:02 ◼   ► that are clearly against

01:20:03 ◼   ► the spirit of Apple.

01:20:03 ◼   ► And in many, many ways recently

01:20:05 ◼   ► that has not been happening.

01:20:06 ◼   ► So that's when you say,

01:20:07 ◼   ► okay, your spirit of Apple,

01:20:09 ◼   ► you know, sort of reason

01:20:11 ◼   ► for you being in your job 40 years,

01:20:13 ◼   ► that no longer flies.

01:20:15 ◼   ► So probably you should retire

01:20:17 ◼   ► because you're kind of retirement age

01:20:18 ◼   ► and let someone else have a chance

01:20:19 ◼   ► and let's see a changing of the guard.

01:20:21 ◼   ► Let's see some Apple turnover.

01:20:22 ◼   ► Ha ha.

01:20:23 ◼   ► And it's happening.

01:20:25 ◼   ► I mean, even when people

01:20:26 ◼   ► like Lisa Jackson leave

01:20:26 ◼   ► that everybody loved,

01:20:27 ◼   ► like, you know, again,

01:20:28 ◼   ► people move on,

01:20:29 ◼   ► get old, retire.

01:20:30 ◼   ► you know, good luck to them.

01:20:32 ◼   ► I'm happy to see a lot of turnover.

01:20:34 ◼   ► And, you know,

01:20:35 ◼   ► as great as Johnny Cerugi is,

01:20:37 ◼   ► it's, you know, if he left,

01:20:39 ◼   ► I don't think it would be

01:20:39 ◼   ► the end of the world.

01:20:40 ◼   ► I think what's much more concerning

01:20:41 ◼   ► are those rumors

01:20:42 ◼   ► that we talked about,

01:20:43 ◼   ► you know, many months ago

01:20:44 ◼   ► about Apple's Silicon team under him,

01:20:47 ◼   ► those people leaving

01:20:48 ◼   ► to go work for other companies.

01:20:50 ◼   ► That's way more concerning

01:20:51 ◼   ► than the head of that thing.

01:20:53 ◼   ► Because I think that organization

01:20:54 ◼   ► is very functional.

01:20:55 ◼   ► And I think, you know,

01:20:56 ◼   ► if he were ever to leave,

01:20:57 ◼   ► there are probably people under him

01:20:58 ◼   ► who could take over his role.

01:21:00 ◼   ► And perhaps his biggest expertise

01:21:02 ◼   ► was sort of like,

01:21:02 ◼   ► we're going to make

01:21:04 ◼   ► all our own chips now.

01:21:05 ◼   ► Get that effort rolling from zero,