ATP

00:00:00 ◼   ► I think we should figure out a way to do some sort of completely legal betting on how long it takes me to ruin a phone, because I've gone from never ruining phones to doing it like it's going out of style.

00:00:12 ◼   ► You've got to have one of those signs that says it has been X days since someone dropped their phone on ATP, and it'll just take the number.

00:00:18 ◼   ► We had to reset it to zero for Marco, and now it had gone up to, I don't know, 1520, but it sounds like we're going to have to reset that number again.

00:00:25 ◼   ► Well, actually, you don't.

00:00:26 ◼   ► What happened?

00:00:28 ◼   ► I'm exaggerating for comedic effect, but sometimes since we last recorded, I forget what day it was, I have to back up a half step.

00:00:37 ◼   ► So we have a two-car garage, and although it does fit both cars, there is a lot of superfluous stuff around the cars, and we do park both cars in there every night.

00:00:46 ◼   ► But there's bikes, there's a wagon, there's a stroller.

00:00:51 ◼   ► Some of these things we don't really use anymore because our children are older.

00:00:54 ◼   ► There's a garage refrigerator, there's our hot water heaters in the garage.

00:00:59 ◼   ► It used to be that our furnace was in the garage.

00:01:01 ◼   ► It's not anymore.

00:01:02 ◼   ► There's a lot of stuff in there.

00:01:03 ◼   ► And when we need to get to the outdoor fridge, because of uninteresting reasons, the door basically opens into the passenger side of Aaron's car.

00:01:15 ◼   ► And there's a little bit of room to open the door, but not a lot.

00:01:19 ◼   ► And it so happened that one morning, I want to say it was like Friday morning or something like that, I needed to get something that was kind of deeper within the outdoor fridge.

00:01:27 ◼   ► And so I decided, okay, what I'm going to do is I'm going to move Aaron's car out of the garage because she inevitably has some errand to run at some point.

00:01:34 ◼   ► So you were talking about the door to the fridge.

00:01:36 ◼   ► Yes, I'm sorry.

00:01:37 ◼   ► Was that unclear?

00:01:37 ◼   ► My apologies.

00:01:38 ◼   ► So I thought you meant the door from the house into the garage.

00:01:42 ◼   ► Oh, no, no, no.

00:01:42 ◼   ► I'm sorry.

00:01:43 ◼   ► I'm sorry.

00:01:43 ◼   ► That is a fair interpretation, but that is not at all what I meant.

00:01:46 ◼   ► The door, the garage is below the house by a couple of feet because, you know, the house is sitting on a crawl space and the garage is just, you know, concrete on the ground.

00:01:57 ◼   ► So, yeah, so there's no issue with the people door.

00:02:00 ◼   ► There's an issue with the refrigerator door.

00:02:01 ◼   ► My apologies.

00:02:02 ◼   ► Thank you for jumping in.

00:02:03 ◼   ► So I move Aaron's car out and I'm doing this in my pajamas.

00:02:06 ◼   ► And my pajamas in the summertime and I've since switched for unrelated reasons, actually.

00:02:11 ◼   ► But in the summertime, my pajamas are basically like really oversized, not exactly boxer shorts.

00:02:16 ◼   ► I guess they're more like athletic shorts and a T-shirt.

00:02:19 ◼   ► And my shorts have pockets in them.

00:02:22 ◼   ► And so I'm in Aaron's car and I'm moving the car out of the garage.

00:02:26 ◼   ► And I go to get out of the car and I hear clunk, clunk, clunk.

00:02:29 ◼   ► Never trust soft shorts pockets to hold a phone securely.

00:02:35 ◼   ► You've said this before.

00:02:36 ◼   ► You've said this before.

00:02:37 ◼   ► And yet I don't listen.

00:02:38 ◼   ► Did the phone fall all the way out of the car?

00:02:41 ◼   ► Did it just fall into like the crack between the seat on the.

00:02:44 ◼   ► John, it fell all the way onto the concrete screen down.

00:02:48 ◼   ► Oh, God.

00:02:49 ◼   ► And then I went and grabbed it.

00:02:51 ◼   ► There's a little teeny tiny dent by the camera control.

00:02:56 ◼   ► Otherwise, it's fine.

00:02:57 ◼   ► No damage.

00:02:57 ◼   ► You like it out.

00:02:58 ◼   ► Do you have a case on your phone or no?

00:03:00 ◼   ► I do not.

00:03:00 ◼   ► It yeeted the pop socket halfway across the damn driveway.

00:03:04 ◼   ► But otherwise, no damage.

00:03:06 ◼   ► I couldn't believe it.

00:03:07 ◼   ► So I don't know if it was absurdly good luck, which it may have been.

00:03:11 ◼   ► Or it could be that this phone really and truly is not casey proof.

00:03:16 ◼   ► I'm not going to tempt fate that way, but casey resistant.

00:03:19 ◼   ► It's not that high, though.

00:03:20 ◼   ► You were from a seated position in your car to the concrete versus Marco standing similar, you know, from his shorts pocket to the concrete.

00:03:28 ◼   ► I hear you.

00:03:30 ◼   ► But remember that the iPhone 16 Pro got damaged or got shattered right after I got back from St. Jude.

00:03:38 ◼   ► And this was the whole thing with the express replacement because I was getting out of the passenger side of Aaron's car with my exercise shorts on, which is also, to Marco's point, soft shorts.

00:03:46 ◼   ► Soft shorts.

00:03:47 ◼   ► But nevertheless, it was effectively the same thing and it was onto concrete just like it was the last time and it survived with almost no damage.

00:03:56 ◼   ► So either I got incredibly lucky, which I'm happy with, or these phones really are more reliable or durable, I should say, durable.

00:04:03 ◼   ► You're making the same mistake over and over again as giving us some good statistical data.

00:04:08 ◼   ► You just got to keep doing this with every phone.

00:04:09 ◼   ► I'm sure that won't be a problem.

00:04:12 ◼   ► Right?

00:04:12 ◼   ► Yeah, I've got that one covered.

00:04:15 ◼   ► All right.

00:04:16 ◼   ► Speaking of having things covered, this is your final warning, your last chance.

00:04:22 ◼   ► This is it.

00:04:23 ◼   ► To go to ATP.fm slash store.

00:04:26 ◼   ► This is your chance to go and get your winter merchandise.

00:04:31 ◼   ► So, John, do we have any news?

00:04:33 ◼   ► Is there anything you want to tell us?

00:04:35 ◼   ► Or can you just do a quick rundown of all the merch, please?

00:04:38 ◼   ► Well, the chicken hat is sold out, so I'm excited about that.

00:04:41 ◼   ► We're not going to be...

00:04:42 ◼   ► I did not know this.

00:04:43 ◼   ► I really, truly did not know this.

00:04:45 ◼   ► This is excellent news.

00:04:45 ◼   ► I never expected that.

00:04:47 ◼   ► I thought we were going to hold on to these for as long as the mugs.

00:04:48 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:04:48 ◼   ► Apparently, they ordered more or less the right amount.

00:04:51 ◼   ► We will not be burdened with chicken hats.

00:04:52 ◼   ► Remember, the mugs sold out a while ago.

00:04:54 ◼   ► Now, the chicken hats are sold out.

00:04:55 ◼   ► So, congratulations to everybody who got a chicken hat 2.0.

00:04:59 ◼   ► That's the only stock items we have.

00:05:02 ◼   ► Everything else is sort of created on demand.

00:05:04 ◼   ► So, yeah.

00:05:05 ◼   ► This is your last chance to get any of this new stuff.

00:05:07 ◼   ► The quarter zip has been very popular among people who don't like their zippers to go all

00:05:11 ◼   ► the way down to the bottom.

00:05:13 ◼   ► And if you want to get one of the ATP T568A or B Ethernet shirts, those are all available.

00:05:18 ◼   ► We got the Ugly Tahoe Icon shirt.

00:05:20 ◼   ► We got some M5 stuff.

00:05:22 ◼   ► We got Mac Pro Believe.

00:05:23 ◼   ► Mac Pro Believe had really had a hell of a time during the sale.

00:05:26 ◼   ► We've been selling the shirt.

00:05:28 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:05:28 ◼   ► How many sales?

00:05:29 ◼   ► The past four or five.

00:05:30 ◼   ► We've been selling the shirt for a long time because, you know, Apple hasn't done anything

00:05:34 ◼   ► with the Mac Pro.

00:05:36 ◼   ► So, I want people to be out there, right?

00:05:37 ◼   ► But obviously, at this point, like anyone who's interested in the Mac Pro Believe thing probably

00:05:41 ◼   ► already has it.

00:05:41 ◼   ► Although, we have been adding more varieties.

00:05:43 ◼   ► Like this time, we have like a pullover hoodie and other stuff.

00:05:45 ◼   ► Anyway, there's like a minimum threshold for the products to be printed.

00:05:50 ◼   ► You have to get at least like 10 orders or something.

00:05:52 ◼   ► Otherwise, it's not enough of them to be worthwhile to print them.

00:05:55 ◼   ► And for a while there, it was close on the Mac Pro Believe stuff, whether they were going

00:05:59 ◼   ► to sell enough to actually be printed.

00:06:01 ◼   ► But I think they both just barely crossed the line of 10 people out there who didn't have

00:06:05 ◼   ► any Mac Pro Believe stuff got it.

00:06:07 ◼   ► So, those will be printed as well.

00:06:08 ◼   ► And of course, we have our plain ATP stuff.

00:06:11 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:06:12 ◼   ► So, this is it.

00:06:13 ◼   ► Sunday, November 9th is the last day you can buy this stuff.

00:06:16 ◼   ► So, if you're listening to this and it is not Sunday, November 9th, or if it is Sunday,

00:06:23 ◼   ► November 9th or earlier, go to the store and buy your stuff because once it's gone, it's

00:06:27 ◼   ► gone.

00:06:27 ◼   ► You'll always be able to get ATP gift memberships, but this merchandise is not long for this world.

00:06:33 ◼   ► So, and like I said, we don't have anything like mugs or hats that are going to be left

00:06:36 ◼   ► over.

00:06:37 ◼   ► Once the sale ends, this stuff goes away.

00:06:39 ◼   ► So, do your holiday shopping early for that nerd in your life or give somebody a link to

00:06:43 ◼   ► get you something here.

00:06:44 ◼   ► atp.fm slash store until Sunday, November 9th.

00:06:48 ◼   ► Marco, is there a way that one could save money on this?

00:06:51 ◼   ► Yes.

00:06:52 ◼   ► Actually, if you join to become a member at atp.fm slash join, you get a discount on merchandise.

00:07:00 ◼   ► Now, John will tell you that you can join, buy stuff, and then cancel.

00:07:05 ◼   ► I will tell you that you can join and buy stuff.

00:07:08 ◼   ► And it's a really good idea.

00:07:10 ◼   ► So, I suggest you join ATP membership because then you're a member.

00:07:14 ◼   ► Then you get all the other cool member stuff.

00:07:16 ◼   ► You get all the exclusive content, the bonus episodes.

00:07:18 ◼   ► You get to say you're a member, which itself is very cool.

00:07:22 ◼   ► And you get custom artwork.

00:07:26 ◼   ► You get the bootleg, the ad free.

00:07:28 ◼   ► Overtime in every episode.

00:07:29 ◼   ► Yep.

00:07:30 ◼   ► Bonus content in every single episode.

00:07:33 ◼   ► And if you join now as a member, you get access to all of the past member content also.

00:07:39 ◼   ► So, it isn't like you're starting just from the point that you join and only getting it from them.

00:07:44 ◼   ► You can go back and listen to hours and hours and hours more of us, which is such an amazing selling point, I'm sure, for everybody out there.

00:07:53 ◼   ► Especially any partners who are sharing a car with one of our listeners right now, kind of being supportive of their love of our show, but not necessarily into our show as much themselves.

00:08:05 ◼   ► Imagine how this sounds to them.

00:08:07 ◼   ► You can pay some money, possibly out of a joint finance arrangement that you have with this person, to have hours more of us.

00:08:15 ◼   ► That is such an incredible proposition.

00:08:17 ◼   ► So, please, atp.fm slash join.

00:08:19 ◼   ► And you can also save money on your t-shirts.

00:08:21 ◼   ► Yeah, and the overtime stuff.

00:08:23 ◼   ► We have a lot of good stuff in overtime.

00:08:24 ◼   ► And sometimes something will come up and I'm like, oh, that was on a past episode.

00:08:28 ◼   ► And I have to go look it up.

00:08:29 ◼   ► I'm like, oh, I was in an overtime.

00:08:30 ◼   ► Overtime is different than the after show.

00:08:32 ◼   ► Like, the after show, we're more casual and might talk about personal stuff or whatever.

00:08:36 ◼   ► Overtime is still a tech topic, but it's usually a little bit weirder because it's stuff that normally wouldn't even make it to the show.

00:08:41 ◼   ► See past explanations of what overtime it is.

00:08:44 ◼   ► But anyway, we have a chapter marker in every episode for overtime.

00:08:47 ◼   ► So, if you want to go back and listen to overtimes, it's easy just to start an old episode and immediately jump to the overtime chapter.

00:08:53 ◼   ► And if you want to know what the overtimes are, just go look at the website or look in your podcast client.

00:08:57 ◼   ► Look at the show notes.

00:08:58 ◼   ► You'll always see what the overtime topic is.

00:09:00 ◼   ► We describe it in the show.

00:09:03 ◼   ► It's in the chapter title.

00:09:04 ◼   ► It's on the website.

00:09:05 ◼   ► So, there's no mystery of, you know, what overtimes are you interested in?

00:09:08 ◼   ► You can just scroll through the old episodes and find overtime topics that you think you might be interested in and go back and listen to them with the chapter marker.

00:09:15 ◼   ► And if you have a podcast client that doesn't support chapter markers, change that because chapter markers are good.

00:09:20 ◼   ► There's actually news on that front.

00:09:21 ◼   ► I mean, I'm not really prepared to talk about it yet.

00:09:23 ◼   ► But Apple Podcasts did just announce that they are going to be doing AI chapter marks, which I believe, I think Spotify Podcasts did that a few months ago, where they're basically, like, taking the transcripts they're generating for podcasts and then making chapters based on, like, hey, what topics are they talking about and when?

00:09:46 ◼   ► Which, honestly, I think it's an interesting feature.

00:09:49 ◼   ► I'm investigating it myself for Overcast.

00:09:53 ◼   ► I'm, you know, I'm not, I have nothing really to show for it yet, but it's kind of, I think this is starting to significantly change the listening experience of podcasts.

00:10:05 ◼   ► And I think what we all look, how we all navigate our podcasts in, like, a year or two might look very different than how we do it now.

00:10:14 ◼   ► I think it's kind of interesting news.

00:10:16 ◼   ► You know, Spotify did it.

00:10:18 ◼   ► I didn't really hear about it.

00:10:19 ◼   ► But, you know, for Apple Podcasts to be doing it, I think that's kind of a big deal.

00:10:22 ◼   ► Yeah, I have a link in it for next week's episode, but since we're talking about it now, I believe they won't do it if you have manually created chapters.

00:10:30 ◼   ► And I kind of know what AI-generated chapters are like, because Merlin makes them a lot of the times for Rectif stuff just to sort of organize his thoughts about the show or whatever.

00:10:38 ◼   ► And I can tell you, especially for a show like ours, manually created chapters are much more accurate and succinct because we know exactly what we're talking about.

00:10:47 ◼   ► This is the overtime topic we have a snappy line for.

00:10:49 ◼   ► We have a, we can be very precise, whereas an AI-generated description would be like, they're talking about some kind of Apple and technology stuff again.

00:10:56 ◼   ► Like, I didn't make it a little bit more specific like that.

00:10:58 ◼   ► And vests for some reason.

00:11:00 ◼   ► Yeah, I really do hope that my recollection of what I read today is correct, that if you have manually created chapters, that Apple Podcasts will not try to auto-generate its own.

00:11:11 ◼   ► Or rather, if it did, like, I'm happy for it to do both.

00:11:14 ◼   ► Here's the manually created chapters and here's the auto-generated ones.

00:11:17 ◼   ► But what I don't want to see is, oh, now we're just ignoring the manual created ones and we'll just show you the auto-generated ones.

00:11:22 ◼   ► Because manuals are always going to be more precise, better, like, you know, we know what we're going to talk about.

00:11:28 ◼   ► We can put a one-liner description instead of a bunch of vague stuff.

00:11:32 ◼   ► So, yeah, I think this is a good feature and it'll be very useful for people who listen to podcasts that don't have chapters at all.

00:11:37 ◼   ► But I really hope it doesn't mess up our good thing that we have going here, which is a podcast with very good chapters and all the episodes.

00:11:43 ◼   ► I mean, in all fairness, like, we'll be fine because most of our listeners don't use Apple Podcasts.

00:11:47 ◼   ► And, you know, so we'll be fine.

00:11:49 ◼   ► But, and I think the listeners, most listeners who listen to shows that put in manual chapter markers, I think are much more likely to use third-party apps for their podcast listening.

00:12:04 ◼   ► Chapter markers are pretty nerdy for certain, certain audiences, typically, like, you know, tech people and Germans and, and especially German tech people.

00:12:13 ◼   ► And so, you know, that, that community tends to not use Apple Podcasts proportionally as much as everyone else.

00:12:20 ◼   ► But certainly, again, I think, I think this is very interesting.

00:12:24 ◼   ► Like, it basically makes podcasts more navigable and more accessible if it works well.

00:12:31 ◼   ► And that's a big if, and there's a lot of challenges to overcome, but, like, that could be really, really, I think, experience changing for the medium.

00:12:40 ◼   ► And, you know, in some ways good, in some ways not so good, we'll find out.

00:12:44 ◼   ► But I think it's, it's kind of interesting, like, there, you know, that we're, you know, the rise of cheap transcripts, basically, is going to dramatically change what podcasts are doing.

00:12:56 ◼   ► And, credit to Apple, Spotify entering the podcast game made Apple finally start working on Apple Podcasts in a meaningful way.

00:13:06 ◼   ► Like, before Spotify really challenged them in podcasts, Apple Podcasts, I could always depend on them to not do much of anything.

00:13:14 ◼   ► Like, no offense to the podcast team, but, like, they didn't move much at all.

00:13:17 ◼   ► They didn't move quickly, which I considered a feature or a bug for me being in the alternative app business.

00:13:22 ◼   ► I was fine with that.

00:13:23 ◼   ► Apple Podcasts really has not done much of anything for most of the last, like, you know, 15 years.

00:13:30 ◼   ► But then, ever since Spotify started competing with them pretty well, pretty effectively, Apple is now, like, matching Spotify feature for feature in podcasts and sometimes getting ahead of them and sometimes falling behind.

00:13:42 ◼   ► But they're, like, they're moving again.

00:13:43 ◼   ► They're doing big features.

00:13:45 ◼   ► As an app developer who has to compete with them, I'm kind of, like, you know, grumbly, you know.

00:13:49 ◼   ► But as a fan of podcasts, like, that's great because they're still the biggest podcast player by a pretty good margin, depending on – it's kind of questionable whether you should count YouTube or not.

00:14:00 ◼   ► That's arguable.

00:14:01 ◼   ► But, you know, Apple Podcasts is huge.

00:14:03 ◼   ► And so for them to be, like, really putting in some pretty innovative features recently, like, that's noteworthy.

00:14:10 ◼   ► And it kind of shows, too, like, when Apple has competition in an area that they've been complacent in for a long time, they usually rise to the challenge and do pretty good work.

00:14:21 ◼   ► So more areas of competition for Apple tends to be better for Apple and its customers.

00:14:27 ◼   ► Hmm.

00:14:28 ◼   ► What were we talking about?

00:14:30 ◼   ► ATP Store.

00:14:31 ◼   ► Yes.

00:14:31 ◼   ► ATP.fm slash store.

00:14:34 ◼   ► Check out your member page to get your bespoke discount code if you are a member.

00:14:37 ◼   ► If you're not, do ATP.fm slash join.

00:14:40 ◼   ► Thank you very much for indulging us.

00:14:42 ◼   ► This is the last time you will hear about merch, as far as we plan anyway, until 2026.

00:14:46 ◼   ► And good luck with that, Chapter Marker Apple Podcasts.

00:14:49 ◼   ► Right?

00:14:50 ◼   ► Seriously.

00:14:51 ◼   ► What were we talking about?

00:14:52 ◼   ► We can't even keep track.

00:14:53 ◼   ► Good luck, AI.

00:14:53 ◼   ► All right.

00:14:55 ◼   ► Let's do some follow-up.

00:14:56 ◼   ► And we have to start with a correction about the current MacBook Pro design.

00:15:00 ◼   ► John, which one of us said this wrong?

00:15:02 ◼   ► And do we have to fire them?

00:15:03 ◼   ► That was me.

00:15:03 ◼   ► I was trying to think of how long the M1 was in the various parts.

00:15:11 ◼   ► What was it?

00:15:12 ◼   ► No.

00:15:12 ◼   ► How long the current hardware design for laptops existed?

00:15:15 ◼   ► Like the boxy kind of, I don't know what you call it.

00:15:18 ◼   ► We don't have a good name for it.

00:15:19 ◼   ► But the way the MacBook Pros look.

00:15:21 ◼   ► And I said that it was like M2 through M5.

00:15:24 ◼   ► And I was wrong.

00:15:24 ◼   ► As Ben Madison points out, the MacBook Pro got its current form factor.

00:15:27 ◼   ► In the M1 generation, not the M2, I was remembering the plain old MacBook, which came in the Intel form factor.

00:15:35 ◼   ► The same one the Intel chips came in.

00:15:37 ◼   ► But when they released the MacBook Pros, there was, in fact, an M1 Pro and M1 Max version of that.

00:15:42 ◼   ► So thank you for the correction, Ben.

00:15:44 ◼   ► All right.

00:15:46 ◼   ► We need to really sell, apparently, some more Mac Pro Believe shirts because things are not looking good in Mac Pro land.

00:15:54 ◼   ► John, I'm sorry.

00:15:55 ◼   ► Tell me what's going on here.

00:15:56 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:15:57 ◼   ► Last episode, there was a – I forget who posted it.

00:15:59 ◼   ► Brendan, somebody had posted something about – and to the credit of that person, they didn't imply that this meant that there was Mac Pro stuff coming.

00:16:07 ◼   ► But they posted the name of a constant that they found in Xcode 26.1 Beta 3.

00:16:13 ◼   ► And it was CPU family arm Hydra, H-I-D-R-A, and we had talked about that in the past as a possible code name for a Mac Pro level chip.

00:16:20 ◼   ► Luna is here to throw some cold water on that idea.

00:16:23 ◼   ► They write, Apple's internal chip code nomenclature dictates that the H-1-7-G, which was the number associated with that constant,

00:16:32 ◼   ► is, in fact, the base M5, not some hypothetical M5 extreme.

00:16:37 ◼   ► The nomenclature is as follows.

00:16:39 ◼   ► It's H, then a generation, and then a variant.

00:16:42 ◼   ► The generation is the same as the A-series year minus 1.

00:16:45 ◼   ► And the variant is P for the A-series chips, G for the A-something X, A-something Z, and M-something chips.

00:16:52 ◼   ► S for the M-something Pro, C for the M-something Max, D for the M-something Ultra, and X for the M-something Pro, Max, and Ultra.

00:17:00 ◼   ► Yes, they've reused some letters from multiple chips.

00:17:02 ◼   ► Can you imagine the AI transcribing this?

00:17:05 ◼   ► So, for some examples, the A11 is H10P because it's the A number minus 1 and P for the A blank chips.

00:17:13 ◼   ► A12X is H11G.

00:17:15 ◼   ► A14 is H13P.

00:17:18 ◼   ► M1 is H13G.

00:17:20 ◼   ► M2 Pro is H14S.

00:17:22 ◼   ► Those are how, that's how the codenames go.

00:17:24 ◼   ► And the GPUs use the same naming, except say prefix with G instead of H.

00:17:28 ◼   ► I looked up some more chip codenames and stuff.

00:17:31 ◼   ► At the time I did this, Xcode 26.1RC is out.

00:17:36 ◼   ► Now, 26.1Full is out, which we'll talk about in a second.

00:17:38 ◼   ► But we'll put in the show notes the path to some files that are part of Xcode that you can look at if you have Xcode 26.1.

00:17:45 ◼   ► And you will find some more constants and codenames here.

00:17:50 ◼   ► So, to give some examples, H17G Hydra is seemingly the plain M5.

00:17:54 ◼   ► There's also one called T-U-P-A-I, 2Pi, that I think is the A18, according to this nomenclature.

00:18:00 ◼   ► And then there is H18P Thera, which I think is the A19 Pro.

00:18:05 ◼   ► It's tricky.

00:18:07 ◼   ► We'll put another link to an Apple codenamed wiki page that has a bunch of chip names in it.

00:18:15 ◼   ► It's sad that there's still no Mac Pro caliber chip codename rumor anything anywhere ever for this year or for next.

00:18:24 ◼   ► But that's the way it is.

00:18:26 ◼   ► I did see the M5 Ultra rumor.

00:18:29 ◼   ► But again, the Ultra will be in the Mac Studio, presumably.

00:18:32 ◼   ► And that's not a Mac Pro caliber chip.

00:18:35 ◼   ► So, yeah.

00:18:36 ◼   ► At this point, we will stop selling the Mac Pro Believe shirts simply because nobody wants them anymore.

00:18:41 ◼   ► And still, Apple will not have done anything about the Mac Pro.

00:18:45 ◼   ► That's the sad state of affairs.

00:18:46 ◼   ► They stop believing.

00:18:47 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:18:48 ◼   ► You're supposed to not.

00:18:49 ◼   ► The song says don't.

00:18:50 ◼   ► It's clear as day.

00:18:52 ◼   ► That's just the way it is, John.

00:18:54 ◼   ► Things will never be the same.

00:18:55 ◼   ► All right.

00:18:56 ◼   ► You have some more bad news.

00:18:57 ◼   ► Tell me about Xcode 26.1.

00:19:00 ◼   ► Yes.

00:19:00 ◼   ► Bad on me for not paying attention to the Xcode betas.

00:19:03 ◼   ► I'm like, oh, well, whatever.

00:19:04 ◼   ► There's nothing wrong with the Xcode 26.0.1 that I've been using.

00:19:08 ◼   ► Xcode 26.1 comes out.

00:19:09 ◼   ► I'm sure it'll be fine.

00:19:10 ◼   ► Whatever.

00:19:10 ◼   ► Nope.

00:19:10 ◼   ► I'd forgotten all about this stupidity with the icons in Tahoe and apparently also in

00:19:16 ◼   ► iOS, from what I hear.

00:19:17 ◼   ► To review, when Tahoe came out, Apple insisted that everybody make Tahoe-style icons that can

00:19:25 ◼   ► be tinted and turn dark and light, and they want you to make them this new Icon Composer

00:19:30 ◼   ► app where you sort of make a bunch of layers, and you can use bitmaps or vector graphics in

00:19:34 ◼   ► the layers and apply glassy effects to them and do all sorts of stuff, and it's so that

00:19:38 ◼   ► you can do different icon styles across all their OSs.

00:19:41 ◼   ► You can make the icons look clear.

00:19:43 ◼   ► You can have dark mode and light mode, and you don't have to draw all these separate icons.

00:19:46 ◼   ► You just kind of make this vector definition file with bitmaps and vectors, and it makes

00:19:51 ◼   ► the icons out of it.

00:19:51 ◼   ► And with my apps, I begrudgingly made these stupid ugly icons for Tahoe for all my apps.

00:19:59 ◼   ► But on pre-Tahoe versions of macOS, I wanted all my old icons to be there because the Tahoe

00:20:04 ◼   ► icons, in addition to being ugly, look very different than the pre-Tahoe icons.

00:20:07 ◼   ► So I wanted the Tahoe icons if you're running on Tahoe, but that very same app, if you put

00:20:13 ◼   ► it on a pre-Tahoe version of macOS, I wanted it to look like how it used to, with the old

00:20:16 ◼   ► icons.

00:20:17 ◼   ► And it was very painful for me to figure out a way to do that.

00:20:20 ◼   ► I didn't actually figure it out.

00:20:21 ◼   ► Someone figured it out online, and I just copied what they did.

00:20:23 ◼   ► But a bunch of developers were struggling with this problem because it seemed like an obvious

00:20:27 ◼   ► thing that we want to do.

00:20:28 ◼   ► Again, the WWDC session where they're like, adopt these new icons for Tahoe.

00:20:31 ◼   ► I fully expected them to say, here's how you get these new icons on Tahoe, and of course

00:20:35 ◼   ► you want your old icons to appear on earlier versions.

00:20:37 ◼   ► Nope, they never said that.

00:20:39 ◼   ► They did not provide a way to do it.

00:20:40 ◼   ► Someone found an undocumented flag to some command line tool that's part of Xcode that

00:20:44 ◼   ► could do it with some weird workaround.

00:20:46 ◼   ► And that's what I did, and that's how I shipped my apps.

00:20:48 ◼   ► Xcode 26.1 broke that.

00:20:50 ◼   ► So that system that we were all using that some clever person figured out to make it so that

00:20:54 ◼   ► our icons look like the old icons of the old OS and the new icons of the new OS doesn't

00:20:58 ◼   ► work anymore, both on macOS and according to people who have written to me on Mastodon.

00:21:03 ◼   ► Also, iOS is the same exact deal.

00:21:05 ◼   ► We were all using the same workaround, and now it just plain doesn't work anymore.

00:21:10 ◼   ► I filed bugs against it.

00:21:11 ◼   ► Apple said, working as designed.

00:21:13 ◼   ► I filed an enhancement request.

00:21:14 ◼   ► It says it would be great if you provided us with an official supported way to show the

00:21:18 ◼   ► new icons of the new OS and the old icons in the old OS.

00:21:21 ◼   ► No reply.

00:21:22 ◼   ► And so now I'm kind of stuck not being able to upgrade Xcode.

00:21:26 ◼   ► I'm just sticking with Xcode 26.0.1, and I will keep using that until I can't anymore,

00:21:31 ◼   ► because if I build my app with 26.1, it will break all my icons on the old OS and make them

00:21:38 ◼   ► all look like the new ugly ones.

00:21:39 ◼   ► I'm sad about this.

00:21:40 ◼   ► This is dumb.

00:21:41 ◼   ► Squircle jail is dumb.

00:21:43 ◼   ► This OS will go down in history as one of the most user hostile and developer hostile icon

00:21:49 ◼   ► experiences in the history of Apple.

00:21:51 ◼   ► Bad show.

00:21:52 ◼   ► Yeah, I can also say, too, like the position it puts you in as a developer in this context,

00:21:56 ◼   ► users that are not upgrading to the 26 OSes don't want these icons.

00:22:02 ◼   ► They actually oftentimes hate this icon style.

00:22:05 ◼   ► And they don't fit.

00:22:06 ◼   ► Like, whether you like it or not, they don't fit with the old OS.

00:22:09 ◼   ► The old OS doesn't look like that.

00:22:11 ◼   ► Right.

00:22:11 ◼   ► And it forces you, like, and it's worse on iOS, honestly.

00:22:14 ◼   ► But it certainly is not great on the Mac either.

00:22:16 ◼   ► On iOS, we never had a choice.

00:22:18 ◼   ► Like, if you had a 26 icon, you had to make a, you had to let iOS 18 and earlier use, like,

00:22:26 ◼   ► a statically rendered version of your 26 icon that had, like, a, like a baked in gloss on

00:22:32 ◼   ► certain corners to the point where all fall, I was, I've been fielding, like, emails from

00:22:38 ◼   ► people saying that my icon is broken and it looks like a rendering error on iOS 18.

00:22:42 ◼   ► I don't, I only know about this from what people said, but the reason people were reporting to

00:22:46 ◼   ► me that 26.1 broken on iOS is I believe the hack that I was using and that James Thompson

00:22:50 ◼   ► uses and that everyone else is using did work on iOS.

00:22:54 ◼   ► You could, with this special flag and configuration change, you could make it so that when you

00:22:59 ◼   ► ran on iOS 18, it showed the old icon and you ran on 26, it showed the new one.

00:23:02 ◼   ► That's my understanding.

00:23:03 ◼   ► I don't have personal experience with it, but that's what I believe I am told by people who

00:23:08 ◼   ► have written to me.

00:23:08 ◼   ► Oh, that would have been great.

00:23:09 ◼   ► Cause I'm still like, I have so many problems.

00:23:12 ◼   ► Like, frankly, I can't wait until I can drop iOS 18 support because the testing burden between

00:23:17 ◼   ► the two, because they're so different.

00:23:19 ◼   ► And like every screen, like when I've changed anything, I have to do so much testing and

00:23:25 ◼   ► custom layout for one or the other OS.

00:23:27 ◼   ► Cause like the size of the controls are all different.

00:23:29 ◼   ► Like the metrics, the behaviors of controls are different between the two.

00:23:32 ◼   ► So like, I can't wait to drop support for 18 just because it's so much work doing anything.

00:23:38 ◼   ► But the reality is I still have to support 18 cause it's still, I think something like

00:23:43 ◼   ► a third or maybe 40% of my users are on 18.

00:23:47 ◼   ► So we're still in this like, you know, dual OS world for a while, probably for at least a

00:23:53 ◼   ► few more months, if not longer.

00:23:55 ◼   ► And Apple could do a few small things to make that much easier.

00:24:00 ◼   ► And they just don't cause they don't care.

00:24:02 ◼   ► Like, you know, Apple's internal developers don't face these problems.

00:24:05 ◼   ► They have, you know, different setups, different tooling, different situations.

00:24:09 ◼   ► And their apps don't have to, are never going to run on an older version of West.

00:24:13 ◼   ► So like the calendar app that comes with a Tahoe, that calendar app is never going to run on

00:24:19 ◼   ► Sequoia, right?

00:24:21 ◼   ► It's because it's like that Sequoia comes with its own calendar app.

00:24:24 ◼   ► So they don't face this problem.

00:24:25 ◼   ► But not only do they not face this problem, someone has apparently decided inside Apple

00:24:28 ◼   ► that they don't want developers to be able to do this.

00:24:31 ◼   ► And the fact that we found a workaround, then they just broke it like that when I filed

00:24:34 ◼   ► it as a bug, they said, nope, that's how we want it to behave.

00:24:37 ◼   ► Essentially, they closed it as behaves correctly, which is why I filed an enhancement request.

00:24:40 ◼   ► After that, it said, I would like a way to do this.

00:24:42 ◼   ► And Apple's like, nope, we don't want you to have a way to do this.

00:24:46 ◼   ► We don't want you to be able to show the Tahoe icon on Tahoe and the pre-Tahoe icon on pre-Tahoe.

00:24:51 ◼   ► Why the hell they don't want that?

00:24:52 ◼   ► I have no freaking idea.

00:24:53 ◼   ► It doesn't make any sense to me.

00:24:55 ◼   ► It seems like they'd want like their apps to look like they fit in with the old OS and

00:24:59 ◼   ► the new OS.

00:25:00 ◼   ► But some person is making a very bad decision and enforcing it.

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00:26:49 ◼   ► All right.

00:26:53 ◼   ► Tell me about your Tahoe experience, John, with regard to Electron apps.

00:26:57 ◼   ► Talked about that in an earlier episode.

00:26:59 ◼   ► We're asking, is it safe to upgrade to Tahoe?

00:27:01 ◼   ► And we mentioned that there's a bug in Electron where they were using a private API and it was

00:27:05 ◼   ► slowing things down and a new version of Electron came out that fixed that.

00:27:08 ◼   ► But of course, every app that embeds Electron, which is like a web rendering engine, lots of

00:27:12 ◼   ► Mac apps use, um, would have to be updated.

00:27:15 ◼   ► And there was this, uh, detector app that we linked to that will, it's like an Apple script

00:27:19 ◼   ► that will just search your system and find all the apps that use Electron and check the

00:27:23 ◼   ► version of Electron they're using and tell you here are all the apps that have the bug

00:27:27 ◼   ► that you have installed.

00:27:28 ◼   ► And when I ran it, um, I'm still, I'm still running, uh, the earlier version of Mac OS.

00:27:33 ◼   ► Um, when I ran it, it found 23 apps that I had on my Mac that had the bad version, a non-fixed

00:27:39 ◼   ► version of Electron.

00:27:40 ◼   ► So were I to upgrade to Tahoe, which to be clear, I have not, but were I to upgrade to

00:27:43 ◼   ► Tahoe, I'd have 23 apps that if I was running any of them, it could cause this slowdown,

00:27:47 ◼   ► system-wide slowdown.

00:27:48 ◼   ► So I went through and I updated all the apps.

00:27:52 ◼   ► I went through all 23 of those apps and tried to get the latest version, make sure I had the

00:27:55 ◼   ► latest version of everything.

00:27:56 ◼   ► Some of them were already updated because they're like Mac app store apps or whatever.

00:28:00 ◼   ► And I have auto update on, but other ones I had to go download after that, here's what

00:28:03 ◼   ► I'm left with.

00:28:04 ◼   ► And I deleted some apps too, that were just like old stuff.

00:28:06 ◼   ► And I was kind of surprised that this has been, you know, going on since, uh, last, the

00:28:11 ◼   ► early last month.

00:28:11 ◼   ► And here we are in November and still it's a problem.

00:28:15 ◼   ► Um, here's the apps in my system that, uh, I have the latest version and they still have

00:28:20 ◼   ► the bug discord, which is a pretty popular app and uses Electron pretty extensively.

00:28:24 ◼   ► I can't believe they haven't fixed it Dropbox, which I mean, I don't know how much Dropbox

00:28:29 ◼   ► even uses Electron.

00:28:30 ◼   ► Maybe it wouldn't come up because it's used in some screen that I don't have on the, on

00:28:33 ◼   ► the, you know, some dialogue that I don't have on the screen a lot.

00:28:36 ◼   ► Who knows?

00:28:36 ◼   ► Keybase, which is an encryption thing.

00:28:38 ◼   ► Postman, which is like a thing that does HTTP requests, HTTP IE, which I think is another

00:28:43 ◼   ► HTTP proxy thing.

00:28:44 ◼   ► Microsoft Teams classic.

00:28:47 ◼   ► Not that I'm even using that, but come on, Microsoft.

00:28:49 ◼   ► Um, that thing that, uh, analyzes your messages that I talked about on Rectus that you probably

00:28:54 ◼   ► shouldn't run because it could leak all your messages to, uh, to whoever.

00:28:57 ◼   ► But anyway, that app is not updated.

00:28:59 ◼   ► And finally Macintosh.js, which is a web-based, uh, JavaScript old classic Mac OS emulator.

00:29:05 ◼   ► Macintosh.js.

00:29:07 ◼   ► I, whatever.

00:29:08 ◼   ► I, that person, who knows if that person's ever going to update that app again, but discord

00:29:12 ◼   ► and Dropbox, come on.

00:29:13 ◼   ► And, and Microsoft Teams.

00:29:15 ◼   ► So, yeah, not that I was planning on upgrading to Tahoe, but certainly I'm not upgrading until

00:29:19 ◼   ► these apps update.

00:29:21 ◼   ► Because again, it, it, you know, Electron fixed the bug, but these apps that use Electron need

00:29:25 ◼   ► to put out a new version that builds with the fixed version of Electron.

00:29:29 ◼   ► Uh, so not a great situation.

00:29:30 ◼   ► However, we finally have to turn these rounds upside down.

00:29:34 ◼   ► And in Mac OS Tahoe 26.1, you get more clipboard history options.

00:29:39 ◼   ► Uh, reading from Mac rumors in system setting spotlight in Tahoe 26.1, there are new clipboard

00:29:44 ◼   ► history controls, allowing users to decide how long copied items remain accessible.

00:29:47 ◼   ► Previously, Spotlight could optionally retain clipboard contents for up to eight hours, but

00:29:51 ◼   ► the latest update expands that flexibility with three options, 30 minutes, eight hours, or seven

00:29:54 ◼   ► days.

00:29:55 ◼   ► There's also a new clear clipboard history button.

00:29:58 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:29:58 ◼   ► That's a nice enhancement.

00:29:59 ◼   ► Like I, I, I continue to think the main downside to the built-in clipboard manager is that it

00:30:04 ◼   ► takes more keystrokes than third-party ones.

00:30:06 ◼   ► Uh, I'm continuing to use Pacebot, but, um, I love that the, this is built into the OS and

00:30:12 ◼   ► I wish it was built into iOS as well.

00:30:13 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:30:14 ◼   ► I'm still using launch bars, clipboard history.

00:30:16 ◼   ► And like, I don't like launch bar itself.

00:30:19 ◼   ► The rest of it, I, I use almost none of the features of these launcher apps.

00:30:23 ◼   ► And they can do a million different things.

00:30:25 ◼   ► All of them can.

00:30:25 ◼   ► Um, and for me, like all of the app launching stuff, like I'm, I mainly use it as, you know,

00:30:32 ◼   ► a very basic version of what Quicksilver used to do of just like the name of the app, even

00:30:37 ◼   ► spotlight has been able to do that for years.

00:30:39 ◼   ► Like let me type the first few letters of, of an app and launch it and clipboard history.

00:30:43 ◼   ► Um, and it's wonderful for that, but like the ergonomics of launch bar clipboard, uh,

00:30:49 ◼   ► clipboard history are so built into my fingers.

00:30:52 ◼   ► Like whenever I've tried to use anything else, just like minor differences, just get me and

00:30:58 ◼   ► I can't do it.

00:30:59 ◼   ► So I'm, I'm still happy to stick with launch bar until, you know, there's some reason why

00:31:03 ◼   ► I can't.

00:31:04 ◼   ► Um, I also love using launch bar to type, uh, emoji into messages and stuff because you

00:31:09 ◼   ► can like, you can have it index emoji names and then you can just, you know, hit command

00:31:12 ◼   ► space and, you know, grimace and enter like there, bam, grimace face.

00:31:16 ◼   ► Like you can, I know there's other ways to do that, but without having like an Apple keyboard

00:31:21 ◼   ► with the emoji button, it's not super convenient to do in most other ways.

00:31:24 ◼   ► Um, so I'm still happy with launch bar and that that's, I'm glad Tahoe was bringing this

00:31:29 ◼   ► to the mainstream.

00:31:30 ◼   ► And I think Tahoe bringing clipboard history, like first party is probably also a good sign

00:31:36 ◼   ► for iOS, John, in the sense that like maybe in the next couple iOS releases, maybe Apple

00:31:41 ◼   ► brings it at least to the iPad and maybe to the phone in some way.

00:31:45 ◼   ► I don't know how that would work, but I bet it will come to the iPad pretty soon.

00:31:49 ◼   ► I'm, uh, still on Alfred and I don't have any particular compulsion to leave Alfred

00:31:54 ◼   ► behind and it's very much, you know, similar to what Marco was saying.

00:31:56 ◼   ► I use a little bit of Alfred's, you know, fancy bits, but not a ton.

00:32:00 ◼   ► And certainly there's a lot of fancy bits that I don't touch.

00:32:02 ◼   ► All right.

00:32:03 ◼   ► Uh, we've got some speed tests that have been done on the M5 MacBook pro.

00:32:07 ◼   ► Uh, we are largely going to be talking about a max tech video about this, which we'll put

00:32:11 ◼   ► in the show notes.

00:32:12 ◼   ► Uh, the black magic disc speed test was fascinating.

00:32:16 ◼   ► The read speeds on the M4 MacBook pro, uh, 2031.

00:32:21 ◼   ► What is this like, uh, megabits per second or something like that?

00:32:24 ◼   ► It's whatever the unit is.

00:32:25 ◼   ► It doesn't really matter.

00:32:25 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:32:26 ◼   ► I forget what the number is, but I think the units is like, um, maybe megabytes per second.

00:32:30 ◼   ► Anyway.

00:32:31 ◼   ► Anyway.

00:32:31 ◼   ► So 2031 for the M4, 6,323 for the M5 MacBook pro.

00:32:37 ◼   ► That is a 3.1 X improvement.

00:32:40 ◼   ► Very, very, very impressive.

00:32:42 ◼   ► The right speed, uh, the M4 3,300, basically the M5 6,100.

00:32:49 ◼   ► So that's about a 1.8 improvement, a multiplier improvement for Geekbench, Geekbench six, the

00:32:56 ◼   ► CPU M4, a single core 3688 M5 4263.

00:33:03 ◼   ► So about 15% improvement multicore on the M4 just shy of 15,000 on the M5, a little shy of

00:33:11 ◼   ► 18,000.

00:33:12 ◼   ► So that's an improvement of about 20% for the GPU using metal, the M4 MacBook pro 57,000,

00:33:20 ◼   ► excuse me.

00:33:21 ◼   ► The M5 MacBook pro 76,000, which is an improvement of about 33%.

00:33:25 ◼   ► The M4 pro MacBook pro is 79,000, which is about 3% faster than the M5, but that's not a like for

00:33:35 ◼   ► chip.

00:33:35 ◼   ► That's the M4 pro against the M5 vanilla.

00:33:39 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:33:39 ◼   ► So, I mean, these are great results, you know, 15 and 20% for single core and multicore, you

00:33:44 ◼   ► know, that's what we expect.

00:33:45 ◼   ► The GPU is a little bit better at 30% improvement, but those disc scores, like I haven't seen anyone

00:33:50 ◼   ► define what has caused this, but I'm assuming it's just basically more bandwidth.

00:33:53 ◼   ► They probably doubled or tripled the bandwidth or whatever.

00:33:56 ◼   ► Uh, that's significant.

00:33:57 ◼   ► And I wouldn't say it as like, oh, it means that the M5 is so incredibly fast because again,

00:34:01 ◼   ► the black magic disc speed test, like, do you have any workloads where you're bottlenecked

00:34:04 ◼   ► by like sequential IO?

00:34:05 ◼   ► Probably not.

00:34:06 ◼   ► But what this is doing is removing, uh, something that used to be lesser about the no suffix M

00:34:13 ◼   ► series, like the plain old M4, the plain old M3, uh, they apparently had a disc subsystem

00:34:18 ◼   ► that was significantly less capable than the, than the pro and the max.

00:34:23 ◼   ► And of course the ultra chips, that's a big jump going, you know, three times faster and

00:34:28 ◼   ► read speeds from the M4 to the M5 shows that they've just removed the bottleneck.

00:34:31 ◼   ► So again, it's not going to make your, anything you do three times faster, but if you ever

00:34:37 ◼   ► do have to do some heavy IO, you will no longer be bottlenecked because you got merely got the

00:34:42 ◼   ► plain, no suffix M thing, which is just going to make the M5 MacBook Air, uh, an even better

00:34:48 ◼   ► machine when that comes out.

00:34:49 ◼   ► And also like these CPU results are awesome.

00:34:53 ◼   ► Like for reference, the M5 MacBook pro compared to my M3 max MacBook pro.

00:35:01 ◼   ► It is like, it's like a 30% faster single core and multi-core.

00:35:07 ◼   ► It's only a little bit slower.

00:35:09 ◼   ► It's like, what about 10% slower multi-core.

00:35:11 ◼   ► That's the base M5 against my M3 max.

00:35:15 ◼   ► So once the M5 gets its bigger chip siblings, I think this is going to be a really strong

00:35:21 ◼   ► generation.

00:35:21 ◼   ► Yep.

00:35:22 ◼   ► Time marches on.

00:35:23 ◼   ► Um, yeah, I, I, I'm, I didn't talk about this with the Mac pro stuff, but like obviously

00:35:31 ◼   ► no Mac pro stuff is happening this year.

00:35:32 ◼   ► Um, I think it's pretty obvious.

00:35:34 ◼   ► Uh, and I know I said I was going to buy a new computer this year.

00:35:37 ◼   ► Uh, but I'm fair.

00:35:38 ◼   ► You're not at that.

00:35:39 ◼   ► I've failed.

00:35:39 ◼   ► It's too late now.

00:35:40 ◼   ► I can't like, it's too late.

00:35:41 ◼   ► The, the, I can't buy an M with knowing that the M, like what you just said, here's the

00:35:46 ◼   ► vanilla M5.

00:35:46 ◼   ► It's the only one we got for reasons we discussed in a past episode.

00:35:48 ◼   ► Like they're using, supposedly using some new TSMC tech for the pro and the max M5, and

00:35:53 ◼   ► it's not ready yet.

00:35:53 ◼   ► So they're coming next year.

00:35:54 ◼   ► Right.

00:35:54 ◼   ► But you see what the base M5 is like, you think I can't buy an M4 base computer now.

00:35:59 ◼   ► Oh, it's too late.

00:36:00 ◼   ► It's too late.

00:36:01 ◼   ► So now I'm, you know, I've got my eye on like an M5 max max studio next year, because I'm

00:36:07 ◼   ► probably not going to want to spend on an ultra, uh, in a studio form factor.

00:36:11 ◼   ► So I'll get an M5 max max studio and it will be amazing and I will like it and be happy with

00:36:16 ◼   ► it, but it's going to be a lot more waiting for me.

00:36:18 ◼   ► Unfortunately, you're getting the ultra.

00:36:20 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:36:21 ◼   ► Why would you not get the ultra?

00:36:22 ◼   ► I don't think I just, I don't know.

00:36:24 ◼   ► I like, I will see what the ultra is like, but like, I don't know if I would, the ultra

00:36:28 ◼   ► is so expensive and it's not going to be.

00:36:31 ◼   ► John, you spent $15,000 on your Mac pro.

00:36:35 ◼   ► There's no ultra that is so expensive.

00:36:36 ◼   ► But when I got it, it was, it was so much faster than any other Mac and GPU for performance.

00:36:42 ◼   ► Just, just tremendous limits.

00:36:44 ◼   ► The Intel age, like the, the Intel max, especially like the laptops and stuff, but they're integrated

00:36:49 ◼   ► or even when they had a screen, they were terrible.

00:36:51 ◼   ► This was the Mac pro was so much faster.

00:36:53 ◼   ► And if the Mac pro was just an ultra in a bigger case, that's goes away.

00:36:57 ◼   ► And I, I don't know.

00:36:59 ◼   ► I'm anyway, that's, that's my current plan.

00:37:02 ◼   ► I failed.

00:37:02 ◼   ► 2024 was a failure for me buying a new computer.

00:37:05 ◼   ► I wanted to, I thought there would be some news that would say, well, I got to give up.

00:37:09 ◼   ► I'm going to get the M4 max max studio.

00:37:11 ◼   ► But I just there at that time, there were still rumors that the Mac pro was going to come

00:37:15 ◼   ► out this year and now it's not.

00:37:17 ◼   ► So M5 max max studio is the tentative plan for whenever the hell that chip comes out

00:37:23 ◼   ► next year.

00:37:24 ◼   ► And by the way, as for the M5, like the single core, people keep touting this as the fastest

00:37:30 ◼   ► single core speed ever measured, which is true within the realm of max.

00:37:33 ◼   ► But if you go to geek bench, you find all these overclockers and stuff who have like whatever,

00:37:37 ◼   ► you know, uh, AMD CPUs with like a liquid nitrogen on top of them that have like five times the

00:37:42 ◼   ► score of this or whatever.

00:37:43 ◼   ► But yeah, I would say for like a consumer level, uh, laptop CPU, the single core score

00:37:50 ◼   ► is the best in the entire world.

00:37:52 ◼   ► And, uh, yeah, it's not this news that they, you know, like 10, 15% every year keeps going

00:37:56 ◼   ► up and up.

00:37:57 ◼   ► Uh, yeah.

00:37:58 ◼   ► Uh, M5 is kind of embarrassing the M3 max.

00:38:01 ◼   ► Uh, but we can't wait for those, uh, M5 suffix chips in, uh, spring of next year.

00:38:06 ◼   ► So I know you won't listen to me, but what you should do is instead of getting like the

00:38:13 ◼   ► absolute amazing ultra Mac pro class thing, like every single, you know, every what, 10

00:38:21 ◼   ► years, nine years, like, well, what year, what year am I on?

00:38:25 ◼   ► I'm, this is 2019.

00:38:26 ◼   ► I got it kind of early 22.

00:38:27 ◼   ► I'm, this is like half that I'm only a five or six years.

00:38:30 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:38:30 ◼   ► And you're, and you're not done yet.

00:38:31 ◼   ► Um, cause you know, no one's saying the Mac studio is coming out in January.

00:38:35 ◼   ► Like it's probably going to be June or something.

00:38:37 ◼   ► Um, so what you should probably do, especially since I should get a Mac mini.

00:38:42 ◼   ► Well, maybe, but like amazing.

00:38:45 ◼   ► I think, I think what might be worth considering for you is instead of getting the most ridiculous

00:38:51 ◼   ► GPU decked out thing every, you know, nine or eight or seven years, get like a more reasonable

00:38:58 ◼   ► configuration every like four or five years or like shorten the timeline and lower the

00:39:04 ◼   ► ceiling because you're not going to be playing PC games on it anymore.

00:39:08 ◼   ► Like that era is over.

00:39:09 ◼   ► I know that's, that's, that's, I told you this would be speculative GPU power.

00:39:14 ◼   ► Uh, and I'm still like, look, it's not for me to buy.

00:39:17 ◼   ► I don't think I'm going to buy an ultra because that doesn't have enough GPU power to even be

00:39:21 ◼   ► worth it is it's so expensive.

00:39:22 ◼   ► And honestly, the real, the real thing where I'm going to spend all my money is a stupid eight

00:39:26 ◼   ► terabyte SSD.

00:39:27 ◼   ► So I'm waiting for whatever, like when the NAND industry does their next like doubling

00:39:30 ◼   ► of density, uh, that makes the, we'll make the eight terabyte one slightly less expensive

00:39:34 ◼   ► or maybe I'll try to go third party.

00:39:36 ◼   ► You can, by the way, you can get the 16 terabyte model now for only 4,600 more dollars.

00:39:42 ◼   ► Yeah, sure.

00:39:43 ◼   ► Yeah, it's great.

00:39:44 ◼   ► Now, like I'm, like I said, when we talked about, I'm looking into the third party ones,

00:39:47 ◼   ► like if those third party companies keep up with like the little modules for the Mac

00:39:50 ◼   ► studio, maybe I'll get third party eight terabyte SSD for a Mac studio.

00:39:54 ◼   ► Although I don't want to open that thing up.

00:39:56 ◼   ► It's so hard to open.

00:39:57 ◼   ► I'm sorry.

00:39:58 ◼   ► You can put a third party SSD in your machine, but I'm not allowed to put third party Ram in

00:40:04 ◼   ► any of my computers.

00:40:05 ◼   ► Well, I mean, when you were doing that, Ram wasn't eight hojillion times the price of

00:40:10 ◼   ► the industry standard.

00:40:11 ◼   ► Like it used to be not this bad.

00:40:13 ◼   ► Apple Ram was always more expensive, but it hasn't been as bad as it is now.

00:40:17 ◼   ► And yeah, it's, I don't know.

00:40:19 ◼   ► We'll see.

00:40:19 ◼   ► I might just buy the Apple eight terabyte.

00:40:20 ◼   ► I'm just, I'm hoping I forget.

00:40:23 ◼   ► I haven't kept up with when the next doubling is, but it's, I think it's coming soon.

00:40:26 ◼   ► By the way, for the record, if you like, if you configure a Mac studio right now with the

00:40:32 ◼   ► highest end processor, 256 gigs of Ram, 16 terabyte storage, you're a little under 12 grand.

00:40:40 ◼   ► How much was your Mac pro?

00:40:41 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:40:41 ◼   ► Similar price.

00:40:42 ◼   ► Although mine was considerably more capable than that Mac studio.

00:40:46 ◼   ► That was also a lot of inflation ago.

00:40:48 ◼   ► I know.

00:40:49 ◼   ► I know.

00:40:50 ◼   ► It's, it was more expensive because of inflation, but like just so much more like easily upgradable

00:40:56 ◼   ► things, things can be swapped in and out of it.

00:40:58 ◼   ► You can, everything can be upgraded.

00:40:59 ◼   ► And the Mac studio is despite those third party modules, it's not even easy to get that stupid

00:41:03 ◼   ► thing open and get in there.

00:41:05 ◼   ► And Apple does not want you to be doing that.

00:41:06 ◼   ► So it's not really what I want, but it's going to probably be end up what I'm going to

00:41:11 ◼   ► get.

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00:43:10 ◼   ► I got sent a new developer strap.

00:43:18 ◼   ► What is the official name for this?

00:43:19 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:43:19 ◼   ► The developer strap Mark 2 or whatever.

00:43:20 ◼   ► And I had the occasion to go to a local library this morning and do my ATP prep that I usually

00:43:27 ◼   ► do on Wednesday mornings instead of going to Wegmans, I went to the library.

00:43:30 ◼   ► And I did that in no small part so I could reserve a study room so I wouldn't be out in

00:43:34 ◼   ► the middle of everything.

00:43:35 ◼   ► So I could try doing a Mac virtual display with the vision pro.

00:43:38 ◼   ► It is incredible with the developer strap.

00:43:42 ◼   ► There is almost no latency.

00:43:44 ◼   ► I feel like the image is great.

00:43:47 ◼   ► I know everyone has conflicting opinions about that.

00:43:49 ◼   ► I'm not here to relitigate it.

00:43:50 ◼   ► But everything went really, really well.

00:43:52 ◼   ► I don't think that the developer strap is absolutely necessary.

00:43:55 ◼   ► And it is quite expensive.

00:43:57 ◼   ► It's something like $400 or something like that, I believe.

00:44:02 ◼   ► But it did work out quite well.

00:44:04 ◼   ► And if you are someone who lives in Mac virtual display, and I've talked to a few people that

00:44:08 ◼   ► are like that, I do not do that personally, but I know that there are people who do, then

00:44:14 ◼   ► I strongly recommend the new developer strap.

00:44:16 ◼   ► It's quite good.

00:44:17 ◼   ► I didn't do any speed tests or anything like that.

00:44:19 ◼   ► I didn't run any performance tests.

00:44:21 ◼   ► I just used it.

00:44:22 ◼   ► And job well done.

00:44:24 ◼   ► The other nice thing is the new strap.

00:44:27 ◼   ► I know everyone is raving about it, and I will repeat what I said a week or two ago.

00:44:31 ◼   ► The new dual-knit band, whatever they call it, is incredible.

00:44:34 ◼   ► It is so, so much more comfortable than any version of strap that I have tried previously.

00:44:41 ◼   ► Really, really good.

00:44:42 ◼   ► One curious thing that I noted, and I'd be curious for the three of you that have Vision Pros

00:44:49 ◼   ► if you could try this.

00:44:50 ◼   ► So I'm on 26.1 on the released version, 26.1.

00:44:53 ◼   ► And for whatever reason, and this is not the point, but for some reason...

00:44:57 ◼   ► As I was playing music and as sound effects were happening and whatnot, I noticed that

00:45:01 ◼   ► the balance was somewhere, I would say, like 60% to 70% to the left channel.

00:45:08 ◼   ► I have no idea why.

00:45:09 ◼   ► I have no idea how.

00:45:10 ◼   ► This is with both the, what do they call them, the audio pods or whatever that are on the stems

00:45:15 ◼   ► or the legs of the Vision Pro.

00:45:17 ◼   ► Again, my terminology is all wrong.

00:45:18 ◼   ► I'm sorry.

00:45:19 ◼   ► Sticks.

00:45:20 ◼   ► Okay, there you go.

00:45:20 ◼   ► So anyway, on the straps, I guess, strictly speaking, if it's a developer strap.

00:45:25 ◼   ► But anyways, it's both those speakers in there and my AirPods Pro Mark III, I was getting

00:45:30 ◼   ► like weird balance issues where, again, it was like halfway between the center and the

00:45:35 ◼   ► left channel.

00:45:36 ◼   ► So I was getting some out of the right, but not a lot.

00:45:38 ◼   ► So I was casting about trying to figure out what I can do about this.

00:45:41 ◼   ► And I went into accessibility, audio and visual balance.

00:45:44 ◼   ► And I thought, oh, I will slide the balance, you know, 60% of the way to the right to kind

00:45:48 ◼   ► of fix this.

00:45:49 ◼   ► I also tried, or I also wondered if maybe this had something to do with spatial audio.

00:45:54 ◼   ► Maybe that is what was happening.

00:45:55 ◼   ► But when I tried to turn the balance to in between center and right, I could only slide all the

00:46:04 ◼   ► way to the right or all the way to the left.

00:46:06 ◼   ► And the little numeral at the top in between L and R showed 1.00.

00:46:10 ◼   ► I don't know what's going on here, but it sure seemed like where it was expecting to have

00:46:15 ◼   ► a float or something, or double or something like that, it was only taking an integer because

00:46:19 ◼   ► my options were zero or one, or negative one, I guess, strictly speaking, which I thought

00:46:23 ◼   ► was very funny.

00:46:24 ◼   ► And I'd be curious for the three of you that have Vision Pros if you run into this.

00:46:29 ◼   ► But the point of bringing this up was just that the developer strap is very good.

00:46:32 ◼   ► And if you have $400 to light a flame, I recommend it.

00:46:36 ◼   ► Additionally, I have upgraded to Tahoe.

00:46:39 ◼   ► I had a conversation with Jason Snell where he basically said to me in a very, very kind

00:46:45 ◼   ► way, what the hell are you doing?

00:46:46 ◼   ► Go ahead and upgrade.

00:46:47 ◼   ► This is literally your job.

00:46:48 ◼   ► And I was like, you know what, Jason, you're right.

00:46:50 ◼   ► So I upgraded.

00:46:51 ◼   ► Well, I don't know if you needed to do it on your main machine.

00:46:54 ◼   ► Can't you do what I did and have it on an alternate machine or an alternate boot disk or something?

00:46:58 ◼   ► What alternate machine?

00:46:58 ◼   ► I have my Mac.

00:46:59 ◼   ► I mean, I have it on my Mac, or I don't have it on my Mac Mini.

00:47:02 ◼   ► I have a Mac Mini, an M1 Mac Mini that I suppose I could have done it on, but I don't use that.

00:47:07 ◼   ► No, Casey, you missed an opportunity to get another laptop.

00:47:10 ◼   ► This was your chance.

00:47:11 ◼   ► The thought crossed my mind.

00:47:12 ◼   ► The thought crossed my mind.

00:47:13 ◼   ► I need this for my work.

00:47:14 ◼   ► Oh, gosh.

00:47:16 ◼   ► Oh, now he's holding out for the M5 MacBook Air, too.

00:47:17 ◼   ► Yeah, right.

00:47:18 ◼   ► Actually, as we record this, I don't recall where I saw it, but apparently the M4 base level

00:47:24 ◼   ► MacBook Air is like $750 or something like that, which is still a lot.

00:47:28 ◼   ► A lot of money, but oh, man, that's tempting.

00:47:30 ◼   ► Yeah, that's still a real, like, that's the thing about, like, the MacBook Air.

00:47:34 ◼   ► Until they fix the screen, like, you know, I know the M5 is going to be better, and if

00:47:39 ◼   ► you're a tech nerd, you're like, oh, why wouldn't I want three times better read speed?

00:47:42 ◼   ► But you're never going to notice that in the MacBook Air.

00:47:44 ◼   ► The M4 MacBook Air and the M3 MacBook Air are like just amazing machines.

00:47:47 ◼   ► Like, that's such a good, just no-nonsense, simple machine.

00:47:51 ◼   ► Its main weakness is that it doesn't have a good screen, but neither will the M5 one,

00:47:54 ◼   ► according to the rumors.

00:47:55 ◼   ► So don't worry about that.

00:47:57 ◼   ► So if you get a good deal on an M4 one, snatch it up.

00:47:59 ◼   ► I will say, though, Casey, like, remember my nanotexture screen?

00:48:02 ◼   ► Remember how nice that looked?

00:48:04 ◼   ► Yeah, it's Marco trying to upsell.

00:48:08 ◼   ► Get out of that MacBook Air class and come up to a machine with a fan.

00:48:11 ◼   ► No, the MacBook Air would be great if it had nanotexture.

00:48:13 ◼   ► Like, I...

00:48:14 ◼   ► And a better screen, HDR, you know, mini LED, blah, blah, blah.

00:48:18 ◼   ► Like, it's...

00:48:19 ◼   ► The MacBook Air is always kind of getting the short end of the stick on screen,

00:48:22 ◼   ► which, again, it's the lowest-end machine.

00:48:23 ◼   ► I get it.

00:48:24 ◼   ► It makes sense.

00:48:24 ◼   ► Although I do wonder what will happen.

00:48:26 ◼   ► We talked about this before.

00:48:27 ◼   ► When they, like, when the low-end laptop with the phone chip in it comes out,

00:48:31 ◼   ► are they...

00:48:33 ◼   ► That one surely will get the cheapest of the cheap screens.

00:48:35 ◼   ► So does that one become the placeholder for, like,

00:48:38 ◼   ► no, you can't have mini LED for the next five years?

00:48:40 ◼   ► And does that allow the MacBook Air?

00:48:42 ◼   ► Remember how long we had to wait for the MacBook Air to get Retina?

00:48:44 ◼   ► I feel like that now with, like, waiting for it to get out of its LCD non-HDR screen.

00:48:48 ◼   ► It's kind of a long wait.

00:48:51 ◼   ► But, yeah, the low-end...

00:48:53 ◼   ► I forget what the rumor was.

00:48:54 ◼   ► A19 Pro, A18 Pro.

00:48:57 ◼   ► I forget what the rumors were.

00:48:58 ◼   ► But, anyway, when that laptop comes out,

00:49:00 ◼   ► I feel like the MacBook Air should have permission to get a good, decent screen.

00:49:03 ◼   ► With including a nanotexture option for $100.

00:49:06 ◼   ► Tell you what, though.

00:49:07 ◼   ► I actually...

00:49:09 ◼   ► I went to an Apple store this morning.

00:49:11 ◼   ► Like, I was breezing through Grand Central, and I stopped at the Apple store there.

00:49:14 ◼   ► And I got to see, for the first time, the iPad Pro nanotexture screen option.

00:49:20 ◼   ► Because they have it on display.

00:49:21 ◼   ► It is so nice.

00:49:24 ◼   ► And now I'm to the point where I'm like, I want nanotexture on all of my screens.

00:49:27 ◼   ► Now, the iPad is, like, my least used Apple device.

00:49:31 ◼   ► And so it does not make sense for me to buy a new iPad.

00:49:34 ◼   ► But just for the sake of it, I looked.

00:49:36 ◼   ► I'm like, well, you know, my iPad Pro is a few years old.

00:49:38 ◼   ► What would it cost me to get a new iPad Pro setup now?

00:49:41 ◼   ► What that would mean is I would also need to get the new Magic Keyboard, because I have the old keyboard folio.

00:49:46 ◼   ► I would need to get a new Apple Pencil Pro.

00:49:49 ◼   ► And because the nanotexture is only available on the 1 and 2 terabyte models, to get the min...

00:49:58 ◼   ► And, of course, I need cellular.

00:49:59 ◼   ► So to get 1 terabyte cellular nanotexture, Magic Keyboard, and Pencil Pro in the 11-inch, it's like $2,300.

00:50:09 ◼   ► I'm like, oh, I don't use my iPad quite that much.

00:50:14 ◼   ► So that, I'm not going to jump on that.

00:50:17 ◼   ► And people always think that, I mean, obviously you're getting killed on the SSD, which is Apple's stupid, you know, shoving all the margins in the SSD.

00:50:23 ◼   ► But I will point out that that weird-ass floppy laptop you have has a better screen than any of Apple's laptops.

00:50:29 ◼   ► Yeah, it's OLED.

00:50:30 ◼   ► And has a processor that is faster in single core than any of Apple's laptops, except for the plain M5 MacBook.

00:50:37 ◼   ► So it's, you know, in the Apple realm, it is not excessively priced.

00:50:43 ◼   ► Because if you were to configure any comparably capable similar machine from Apple, you would get similar prices.

00:50:51 ◼   ► But that's, you know, you don't want all that.

00:50:54 ◼   ► You want to mix and match.

00:50:55 ◼   ► I just want nanotexture.

00:50:56 ◼   ► I don't care if it has a terabyte, give me the lowest possible storage, but that's not a thing they offer.

00:51:00 ◼   ► Yeah, and it's so frustrating.

00:51:02 ◼   ► It's like, nanotexture is so nice.

00:51:05 ◼   ► Like, once you get used to it, you want it everywhere.

00:51:08 ◼   ► I'm so glad I don't like it.

00:51:10 ◼   ► Oh, my God.

00:51:11 ◼   ► Like, I will never buy another non-nanotexture screen if that product is offered with nanotexture.

00:51:17 ◼   ► Well, at the Apple store, they're constantly cleaning those screens, though.

00:51:20 ◼   ► How do you feel about nanotexture with finger spooge all over it?

00:51:23 ◼   ► Well, all of my touch screens are always covered in finger stuff.

00:51:26 ◼   ► I know, but it's harder to clean off nanotexture, and it shows up more.

00:51:30 ◼   ► I'm not a nanotexture fan.

00:51:31 ◼   ► Honestly, I don't think it does show up more.

00:51:34 ◼   ► Like, and, you know, so right now, like, on iPads, like, right now on my iPad, on my kind of older iPad Pro, I have one of those, is it?

00:51:44 ◼   ► Paper-like.

00:51:44 ◼   ► No, I don't use paper-like anymore.

00:51:46 ◼   ► There's, like, an AstroPad cover or something like that that's a little bit easier to apply and has a little bit different finish.

00:51:53 ◼   ► And so, you know, for years now, before that, I used the paper-like ones.

00:51:57 ◼   ► I've used these kind of, like, textured screen covers for the iPad because I like the way that they both feel and the way the pencil feels on them way better than the flat, slick glass.

00:52:10 ◼   ► And so I've used them all the time, and they all like nanotexture.

00:52:13 ◼   ► They all show, you know, smears and fingerprints differently, and they're a little bit harder to wipe off.

00:52:18 ◼   ► But they're not impossible to wipe off.

00:52:20 ◼   ► You just, you know, you wipe them across your pants or whatever you have available.

00:52:22 ◼   ► You take a cloth or whatever it is.

00:52:24 ◼   ► Like, you get it done.

00:52:25 ◼   ► It's fine.

00:52:25 ◼   ► It's like when people say, like, oh, don't buy a white car because it looks dirty all the time.

00:52:30 ◼   ► Like, every car I've ever had looks dirty all the time in every color.

00:52:33 ◼   ► Like, that's just cars.

00:52:35 ◼   ► Like, they just get dirty.

00:52:36 ◼   ► That's how touch screens are.

00:52:37 ◼   ► Tuck screens get fingerprints on them.

00:52:39 ◼   ► And if you look at the wrong angle in the light, you'll see all the fingerprints, no matter what finish it is.

00:52:44 ◼   ► I don't think nanotexture is meaningfully different.

00:52:46 ◼   ► I will say our friend Steve Troughton-Smith recently got an nanotexture iPad Pro and has been posting about it on a Mastodon here and there.

00:52:53 ◼   ► And one thing Steve pointed out was that the pencil texture on it, it feels closer to a remarkable.

00:53:00 ◼   ► And I tested that today in the store.

00:53:03 ◼   ► I was curious about that.

00:53:04 ◼   ► That's part of the reason why I wanted to see it.

00:53:05 ◼   ► So I tested it.

00:53:07 ◼   ► And indeed, like, I had two iPads side by side, one with nanotexture, one without.

00:53:11 ◼   ► And the pencil texture with nanotexture is way better.

00:53:16 ◼   ► Night and day difference.

00:53:18 ◼   ► It wouldn't surprise me if that's why Apple added it to the high-end models.

00:53:22 ◼   ► Not necessarily for, like, you know, video producers, but maybe for people using the pencil, like high-end artists.

00:53:28 ◼   ► It's a huge difference and a huge improvement.

00:53:31 ◼   ► And compared to using a paper-like or this AstroPad thing that I have, compared to using, like, a paper screen protector, it's way more refined.

00:53:43 ◼   ► It doesn't have quite as much, like, friction as a texture, but those screen protectors introduce way more blur to the screen image than the nanotexture itself does.

00:53:54 ◼   ► Nanotexture itself, there's honestly almost no blurring of the image.

00:53:58 ◼   ► And you do get a little bit of that texture that makes a pretty big difference.

00:54:02 ◼   ► So whenever I get a new iPad, that's what I'm getting.

00:54:06 ◼   ► Even though it's going to be, it's going to cost as much as a MacBook Pro.

00:54:08 ◼   ► I just will buy it less often.

00:54:10 ◼   ► Kind of like the opposite of what I just told John to do with his Mac Pro.

00:54:13 ◼   ► But, like, it's, nanotexture is so good, I will absolutely get that whenever it's offered in a product line.

00:54:21 ◼   ► Right.

00:54:22 ◼   ► So back at the ranch, we're going to talk about Tahoe.

00:54:25 ◼   ► Yeah, whoops.

00:54:26 ◼   ► And I have upgraded my MacBook Pro.

00:54:28 ◼   ► The upgrade went fine.

00:54:30 ◼   ► My initial impressions after having used this for about 24 hours.

00:54:35 ◼   ► The transparent menu bar, it's fine.

00:54:38 ◼   ► Like, I don't have any strong feelings about it.

00:54:42 ◼   ► However, what in the actual hell is up with these folder icons?

00:54:47 ◼   ► They are so loud.

00:54:50 ◼   ► What is happening?

00:54:51 ◼   ► You can pick a different color for them that's also loud.

00:54:53 ◼   ► Great.

00:54:54 ◼   ► Great, but it's a different color.

00:54:55 ◼   ► I don't know what I expected, but these are so much more vibrant and in-your-face,

00:55:03 ◼   ► whereas I feel like a folder should, to a degree, not fade into the background,

00:55:07 ◼   ► but certainly be a lot less in-your-face.

00:55:09 ◼   ► Don't love that.

00:55:11 ◼   ► Also, what did they do to our baby?

00:55:14 ◼   ► What is Finder Windows look bananas?

00:55:18 ◼   ► Generally speaking, I actually don't mind the look of this OS as much as I thought I would.

00:55:23 ◼   ► I mostly think it's pretty good, which I know is a relatively hot take.

00:55:27 ◼   ► What did they do to Finder Windows?

00:55:30 ◼   ► There are so many different orbs at different depths, and I can't tell what's where in terms of depth.

00:55:37 ◼   ► I don't care for it.

00:55:39 ◼   ► But Casey, they're spotlighting your content.

00:55:42 ◼   ► Finder demonstrates most of the controls that have their appearance changed radically in Tahoe.

00:55:48 ◼   ► So you've got sidebar, obviously.

00:55:49 ◼   ► You're talking about a sidebar, Finder Windows, because that's the kind of person you are.

00:55:53 ◼   ► You've got toolbars, which also are changed a lot.

00:55:55 ◼   ► You've got tab bars, which also are changed a lot if you have multiple tabs open.

00:56:00 ◼   ► And that's all combined into a single window.

00:56:02 ◼   ► So you get to see how unharmonious all those.

00:56:06 ◼   ► First of all, you see how much those controls change because the sidebar is now inset and it's got rounded corners and the tabs aren't tabs anymore.

00:56:13 ◼   ► They're capsules and the toolbar buttons are different.

00:56:15 ◼   ► And you have a dark mode screenshot here.

00:56:18 ◼   ► I think it's worse than light mode because it looks like everything is overexposed and they have the weird drop shadows that have been toned down a little bit.

00:56:23 ◼   ► Yeah, it really highlights exactly how ugly and not space efficient and not harmonious.

00:56:31 ◼   ► It's just bad.

00:56:32 ◼   ► I don't like it.

00:56:33 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:56:34 ◼   ► And of course, I think part of the reason the folder icons stand out so much is that the rest of the OS has been drained of all color and basically bleached.

00:56:43 ◼   ► Or in this case, I mean, in dark mode, people like it to be dark.

00:56:45 ◼   ► Actually, I think this dark mode looks better than light mode, but switch into light mode and just everything looks like it's bone bleached in the desert and everything is all completely white.

00:56:54 ◼   ► And the only piece of color is your highlight color, whatever color you picked and your folder color.

00:56:59 ◼   ► Completely.

00:56:59 ◼   ► Like I said, I believe you can change the default folder color and you can also pick on a per folder basis the color you want a specific color folder to be with the labeling system, which then the doc will entirely ignore.

00:57:11 ◼   ► Well, and it's funny you bring that up.

00:57:13 ◼   ► So I want to come back to that in just a second.

00:57:15 ◼   ► But for the record, I am a grownup.

00:57:18 ◼   ► And so I use my devices in light mode during the daytime and dark mode at nighttime.

00:57:24 ◼   ► You heathens with the full-time dark mode, I don't know what you're doing.

00:57:27 ◼   ► You're lunatics.

00:57:29 ◼   ► But nevertheless, so yes, the screenshot, which I'm about to discuss, I did happen to take just a few minutes before recording.

00:57:35 ◼   ► It was nighttime, so it's a dark mode screenshot.

00:57:37 ◼   ► But my initial, oh, was because I saw Finder in light mode and I just, I don't like it.

00:57:44 ◼   ► Again, I actually think for the most part, this isn't bad.

00:57:48 ◼   ► Like Safari, it's not stellar, but it's, I was expected to be offended by the entire operating system.

00:57:54 ◼   ► And I'm really not.

00:57:55 ◼   ► I am offended by Finder, though.

00:57:57 ◼   ► Finder's real rough.

00:57:58 ◼   ► But speaking of Finder and speaking of the sidebar, I use Synology Drive.

00:58:04 ◼   ► We've talked about this many times in the past.

00:58:05 ◼   ► Synology Drive is kind of a bespoke Dropbox alike that, among other things, also will sync with Dropbox through other means.

00:58:16 ◼   ► But when I put that in my sidebar, which is where I like it to be because this is effectively my Dropbox, everything in my sidebar looks, you know, muted and black and white, except the Synology Drive folder, which is the icon for Synology Drive in the Squirtle jail.

00:58:38 ◼   ► I don't know if this is something that I have done at some point during my time with this Mac, but I tried going in and doing the, like, customize this folder icon by putting a, even though it's not really an emoji, I think they call it an emoji on it.

00:58:51 ◼   ► And that doesn't seem to matter.

00:58:53 ◼   ► It matters for, like, the main Finder window, but to your point about the dock, it doesn't affect the sidebar in Finder.

00:58:59 ◼   ► So if you have a mechanism by which I can make this not look awful, I would love to hear it because I don't want to remove this from my favorites on my sidebar.

00:59:09 ◼   ► And I know, John, you're about to say just give it to the sidebar, but that's also not happening.

00:59:12 ◼   ► But if I can make this not look awful, that would be great.

00:59:16 ◼   ► Rather than trying to do the thing you were describing is the system in Tahoe where you can just take a folder icon and give essentially a template image that it will stamp and emboss on the folder icon.

00:59:25 ◼   ► And we talked about this a while ago, like, instead of you having to make a custom version of this, the system will do it for you, which is nice.

00:59:29 ◼   ► And presumably it'll stay up to date with, as they change what the folders look like.

00:59:34 ◼   ► But for this case, I would suggest that you copy and paste the folder icon onto it.

00:59:42 ◼   ► You know, like, get info on it and just paste a plain folder.

00:59:44 ◼   ► Not, not like try to emboss it or put a thing or whatever, like, essentially do a custom icon for it.

00:59:48 ◼   ► Like, you would do a custom icon for your hard drives, like my, my hard drive, my, it has a little picture link on it.

00:59:55 ◼   ► Paste on a, but instead of pasting on a custom icon, copy a folder icon and paste it on there.

01:00:01 ◼   ► That, that won't be sort of OS upgrade proof.

01:00:03 ◼   ► So like when the next OS comes out, your drive will look like Tahoe, but you can try that.

01:00:06 ◼   ► But the problem is, as you noted, the sidebar, I can't see if you have any other folders in the sidebar, but things like, um, well, I guess you have a folder called detritus.

01:00:15 ◼   ► That, that, that, that's, that's a regular folder, right?

01:00:18 ◼   ► It's not showing the folder icon, Tahoe folder icons are those dark blue things that you were complaining about.

01:00:22 ◼   ► It's showing essentially a template image.

01:00:24 ◼   ► It's like, I know this is a folder and I'm going to ignore whatever icon this folder has, because God forbid we honor the custom icon stuff that we added our folders anywhere else in the finder.

01:00:34 ◼   ► I'm just going to show, uh, my little, like, it looks like an SF symbol or whatever, like it, like a template image, just out a line art drawing of a folder.

01:00:42 ◼   ► Same thing with desktop.

01:00:43 ◼   ► It's a line art drawing of desktop downloads does not look like your downloads folder.

01:00:46 ◼   ► So if you've customized your downloads folder, finder doesn't care.

01:00:49 ◼   ► It's going to be a downward facing arrow in a circle and it's monochrome and so on and so forth.

01:00:52 ◼   ► Then Synology drive stands out because not only is it not a template image, but as you noted, it's in squircle jail because Apple hates us all.

01:00:59 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:00:59 ◼   ► And so when I, I tried copying and pasting, I tried just deleting a folder icon.

01:01:05 ◼   ► I'd made a new folder, copied and pasted.

01:01:07 ◼   ► It didn't matter.

01:01:08 ◼   ► Uh, as soon as I drag from like the parent, which is my home folder.

01:01:14 ◼   ► So I'm dragging the dry folder onto the sidebar.

01:01:17 ◼   ► When I start the drag, the, the icon that I'm dragging is the standard blue icon.

01:01:23 ◼   ► When I get over to the sidebar, it flips into squircle jail icon and it's driving me crazy.

01:01:29 ◼   ► So please, somebody tell me how to fix this.

01:01:31 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:01:31 ◼   ► I mean, if you, uh, that's what, what is the Synology drive thing?

01:01:34 ◼   ► Is it just a, is it a mount point?

01:01:36 ◼   ► Like what is it?

01:01:37 ◼   ► No.

01:01:37 ◼   ► So it's just a vanilla folder on the file system, but there's client software.

01:01:42 ◼   ► It's think about the way Dropbox used to work.

01:01:44 ◼   ► But, but it's, so it's just a plain folder then.

01:01:46 ◼   ► As far as I know.

01:01:47 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:01:47 ◼   ► I mean, I don't think that's so weird that it would do that.

01:01:50 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:01:50 ◼   ► But I mean, I'm not the only one who filed these books.

01:01:53 ◼   ► Like these, these custom folder features they added are just not honored by other parts of the system.

01:01:57 ◼   ► Like even within the Finder, Finder is the one app that does honor them in some views, but not in the sidebar.

01:02:03 ◼   ► And then the doc has no idea.

01:02:05 ◼   ► And I filed that, but I forget if they closed it as works correctly or if they just ignored it.

01:02:09 ◼   ► But a lot of people filed that.

01:02:10 ◼   ► If I make a folder red and I put it in the doc, why is it not red in the doc?

01:02:13 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:02:14 ◼   ► 26.1 didn't change it.

01:02:16 ◼   ► I think so.

01:02:18 ◼   ► If I put this in the doc, it appears to be just a regular, the, the, the, the correct icon.

01:02:23 ◼   ► Although I haven't, I, I, I, you know.

01:02:25 ◼   ► But if you, I think if you stamped it with the little embossing thing, I'm not sure if the doc shows that either.

01:02:29 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:02:29 ◼   ► So now, now I got to do that.

01:02:30 ◼   ► I'll, I'll, I'll get back to you in a minute.

01:02:32 ◼   ► But, um.

01:02:32 ◼   ► Anyway.

01:02:33 ◼   ► Tahoe, a lot of stuff in Tahoe is half-baked.

01:02:35 ◼   ► And the stuff that's fully baked doesn't taste good.

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01:04:27 ◼   ► Marco, we are too slow, and we missed getting a first right of refusal with regard to something you discussed on Under the Radar, number 330.

01:04:42 ◼   ► I think it was the most recent one, right?

01:04:43 ◼   ► I think so.

01:04:43 ◼   ► Where you and Underscore discussed that you have embraced Reddit.

01:04:48 ◼   ► And I am shook by this.

01:04:50 ◼   ► Can you give us a very, very quick recap of what's going on there?

01:04:54 ◼   ► And if you have anything else to add, I'd love to hear it.

01:04:56 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:04:57 ◼   ► So for the beginning of time until recently, Overcast did not have an official Reddit presence.

01:05:04 ◼   ► I hardly use Reddit.

01:05:05 ◼   ► I still hardly use Reddit.

01:05:06 ◼   ► It just was not a place I hung out.

01:05:09 ◼   ► It was not a community that never really stuck for me.

01:05:11 ◼   ► What happens on Reddit, and we have this for our show too, if you don't create an official community on Reddit, one will be created for you.

01:05:20 ◼   ► You have the right to remain silent.

01:05:23 ◼   ► But one will be created for you.

01:05:25 ◼   ► And if you are not there, what tends to happen is that the one that is created by other people tends to be people who are mad or who don't like you.

01:05:39 ◼   ► It kind of becomes like a place where your biggest haters will gather.

01:05:45 ◼   ► And so whenever I have discovered some subreddit for something that I am a part of, it has not been a good experience to look at any of those posts because it gets very nasty and very personal pretty universally.

01:06:02 ◼   ► And so I always had a pretty negative impression of Reddit and any motivation I would have to possibly be there or to put myself into that.

01:06:14 ◼   ► You know, what I perceived as like subjecting myself to that, like a long time ago, I used to listen to Howard Stern back many years ago.

01:06:23 ◼   ► And in like the early days of Twitter, like he was getting on Twitter and he was – it was kind of interesting, like listening to him as like a kind of an old school celebrity, learning about like how Twitter can like turn against you and how people are like harassing you constantly.

01:06:41 ◼   ► And you have all these haters that just have, you know, all this like, you know, access directly to your attention.

01:06:47 ◼   ► And one thing that he said on the air one day, he's like, why am I giving these people access to me like this?

01:06:53 ◼   ► And that really stuck with me.

01:06:56 ◼   ► And so over the years, I have occasionally wondered, like, why do I give the public so much access to my attention?

01:07:06 ◼   ► Because a lot of times it is very unreasonable, very negative, very like personally attacking.

01:07:13 ◼   ► And so it's – it can be pretty, you know, pretty weighty on your mood, your mental health.

01:07:20 ◼   ► Like it's a tough thing to deal with in the long term, especially when it gets rude or nasty or personal.

01:07:27 ◼   ► And so for a while, my opinion of Reddit was basically this is a place that is best left ignored for me.

01:07:38 ◼   ► Like it is not good for me to go there because the people there all hate me.

01:07:42 ◼   ► And it is not good for my mental health.

01:07:45 ◼   ► It is not good for my focus.

01:07:47 ◼   ► It is not a good use of my time to go there.

01:07:50 ◼   ► Before we move on from this, I'd be curious to hear, John, your two cents about Reddit.

01:07:55 ◼   ► And for what it's worth, I strongly echo what you're saying with regard to things that one is involved in.

01:08:03 ◼   ► Like, you know, I – there was a period of time where I would at the very least lurk and occasionally interact with the unofficial ATP subreddit.

01:08:11 ◼   ► Okay, don't do that.

01:08:13 ◼   ► And it quickly became apparent that that was not a place for me.

01:08:17 ◼   ► And maybe that's – you can take that however you want.

01:08:20 ◼   ► It doesn't really matter.

01:08:21 ◼   ► But it was quickly made clear that this is not a place that I would like to be.

01:08:27 ◼   ► That doesn't mean the place is necessarily bad.

01:08:29 ◼   ► It's just – it's bad for me.

01:08:31 ◼   ► But that being said, over the years, I've actually gotten more into Reddit.

01:08:37 ◼   ► And there's a handful of subreddits that I've lurked in for a while now.

01:08:43 ◼   ► And they're generally pretty good.

01:08:46 ◼   ► And I definitely came down of the opinion that all of Reddit was disgusting and hateful and evil and awful.

01:08:53 ◼   ► And I think that can be true, but it is not, as I had once thought, always true.

01:08:58 ◼   ► And I think that any service that seems to value anonymity, in my personal opinion, you trend quickly towards a-holes.

01:09:07 ◼   ► But not all of Reddit – hashtag not all Reddit – not all of Reddit is that way.

01:09:14 ◼   ► And I will look at the subreddits that I do browse once every day or two.

01:09:18 ◼   ► And sometimes I get really useful and good information from there.

01:09:22 ◼   ► So I think I am up on Reddit broadly.

01:09:26 ◼   ► I am very, very down on Reddit about things that I'm involved in.

01:09:31 ◼   ► So not that different from you.

01:09:33 ◼   ► And that's fair.

01:09:34 ◼   ► Like, they're really cruel to you in that place.

01:09:38 ◼   ► But, you know, what you're saying, though, is very valid in the sense that, like, these social platforms and social networks, they're huge.

01:09:47 ◼   ► You can't generalize and say, like, everyone on this platform is X.

01:09:51 ◼   ► And, like, I remember, like, back when I was at Tumblr, you know, I would occasionally see people say, like, oh, Tumblr's mad today or Tumblr's really down or whatever.

01:10:01 ◼   ► And I'd be like, you know, that's, like, I'm not seeing that from the people I follow.

01:10:05 ◼   ► You're seeing that from the people you follow.

01:10:06 ◼   ► That's a different thing.

01:10:08 ◼   ► Like, when you're in a social platform, what you see is, generally speaking, either what you have chosen to see or what the algorithm is feeding you based on your activity.

01:10:19 ◼   ► But either way, it's like it's you're seeing a very narrow slice of a very big platform.

01:10:25 ◼   ► And you can't just say, like, oh, this entire platform is X because they're bigger than that.

01:10:31 ◼   ► It's the same thing, like, you know, in New York City.

01:10:33 ◼   ► New York City is not like not everyone you see in New York City is involved in the stock market.

01:10:38 ◼   ► It's a big industry.

01:10:39 ◼   ► There's a lot of people who are involved in finance in New York City.

01:10:42 ◼   ► But it's such a big city.

01:10:43 ◼   ► Every industry is huge in the city.

01:10:46 ◼   ► Like, so everyone you see in the street, like, you don't know who they are, what they're involved in.

01:10:51 ◼   ► It's too big of a city to assume that.

01:10:54 ◼   ► That's how social platforms are.

01:10:55 ◼   ► They're so big that there is no one type of person on them.

01:10:59 ◼   ► There is no one type of community.

01:11:00 ◼   ► So, anyway.

01:11:02 ◼   ► Well, on the topic of Reddit, I get what you're saying, but there's a couple of things that are a little bit different on the internet.

01:11:08 ◼   ► One is that there's no geographic boundary, so you can be much bigger than a single city.

01:11:11 ◼   ► And the other is Reddit as a platform is designed to allow people to make sub-communities, sort of like self-governing, self-sustaining sub-communities.

01:11:20 ◼   ► That's what the platform is for.

01:11:22 ◼   ► Now, that being said, Reddit was essentially seeded by a particular type of individual in the early days, people who were attracted to nerdy things like these type of tech platforms,

01:11:34 ◼   ► and also people who continue to be attracted to this form of community building on the internet.

01:11:41 ◼   ► There is – you can generalize a little bit about this sort of stereotypical person who would be interested in being very active in Reddit or being a moderator on Reddit or whatever to some degree.

01:11:53 ◼   ► But Reddit is just so huge now and has been for years and years, and it's made up of sub-communities.

01:11:59 ◼   ► And the sub-communities vary widely.

01:12:01 ◼   ► There's sub-communities that have strict moderation and rules that everyone has to be nice.

01:12:06 ◼   ► There's sub-communities that all they do is scream at each other all day.

01:12:09 ◼   ► It doesn't even matter what the topic is.

01:12:11 ◼   ► There could be seven sub-communities.

01:12:12 ◼   ► There could be the sub-community about model trains where everybody's nice to each other,

01:12:15 ◼   ► and there could be the sub-community about model trains where everybody's mean and has flame wars about model trains.

01:12:19 ◼   ► It's like there's – that's what Reddit supports.

01:12:21 ◼   ► Make your own community that is what you want it to be.

01:12:25 ◼   ► Have moderation.

01:12:26 ◼   ► Don't have moderation.

01:12:28 ◼   ► Whatever your rules are.

01:12:28 ◼   ► There was a blog recently.

01:12:30 ◼   ► There's a Procreate Reddit for like the Procreate program for iPad, like the graphics art application.

01:12:35 ◼   ► Someone made a Reddit for Procreate where the people would share their artwork, and someone shared a picture that they drew of Master Chief from the Halo game with the trans flag behind him.

01:12:45 ◼   ► And the moderators took it down because they said, we don't want politics in here.

01:12:48 ◼   ► And as you would imagine, that blew up into a big thing of saying the existence of people is not political and blah, blah, blah.

01:12:53 ◼   ► And the upshot is people who don't like it left the Reddit and started their own Procreate Reddit that's not filled with bigots.

01:13:00 ◼   ► And that's – Reddit as a platform supports that.

01:13:05 ◼   ► Make the community that you want to have run it the way that you want to have it, which is – so, you know, speaking of like the ATP subreddit or whatever, they're using Reddit correctly.

01:13:15 ◼   ► Whoever wants to form that subcommunity on whatever they want to talk about, however they want to talk about it, there could be five of them, ten of them, one of them, zero of them.

01:13:24 ◼   ► And most of those communities are not for me.

01:13:28 ◼   ► I don't use Reddit much at all.

01:13:29 ◼   ► Most of the time, I'm just getting it as a Google result or whatever for something that I'm searching, in which case I'm glad those communities exist and someone is like figuring out the best way to repair my particular dishwasher and writing a big Reddit post about it.

01:13:39 ◼   ► Like, I love it.

01:13:40 ◼   ► That's great about Reddit.

01:13:41 ◼   ► But I don't personally participate in most of those communities, but I love that it is a platform that provides a way for people to make those communities.

01:13:49 ◼   ► So I view the ATP Reddit or however many ones there are, Overcast Reddit or whatever, as those are people using this platform, which is, you know, kind of like a nested, threaded, indented, text-based, web forum-style community.

01:14:05 ◼   ► They make the communities they want to make and, you know, some of the communities thrive and become popular and big and get lots of structure around them.

01:14:14 ◼   ► Other ones sort of like fizzle out or whatever.

01:14:15 ◼   ► But like, I don't begrudge anybody using that platform to make a community they want to have.

01:14:20 ◼   ► And in the grand scheme of these type of platforms, I think for the most part, there's been some kerfuffles about Reddit doing evil things with moderators or whatever.

01:14:27 ◼   ► But like, it has mostly resisted becoming a terrible parody of itself and being taken over by super-duper evil billionaires.

01:14:38 ◼   ► Maybe they just have like mildly evil billionaires taking over.

01:14:41 ◼   ► Anyway, all this to say is that I don't frequent Reddit, but I am glad that it exists and I don't begrudge anyone to make whatever community they want to make in Reddit.

01:14:50 ◼   ► And if you don't like a particular subreddit, don't read it.

01:14:53 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:14:54 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:14:54 ◼   ► And that's kind of what led me to reevaluate.

01:14:58 ◼   ► So one thing I realized over time recently is like it was not doing me any good to have places where my customers were gathering to talk about how much I sucked and how much I wasn't listening to them.

01:15:14 ◼   ► Because for me to not be there reinforces the fact that I'm not listening to them.

01:15:21 ◼   ► And the reality is those places usually were so negative that I was not in fact listening to them because I decided I was better off ignoring those places and kind of shutting them out because it was too hurtful to read them most of the time.

01:15:34 ◼   ► And so this was not really a good solution.

01:15:38 ◼   ► Like this was not a good situation that I had this like kind of hate sink, almost like a heat sink.

01:15:43 ◼   ► This is like where all the hate gets concentrated and meanwhile at the same time I'm realizing over time that first of all I want to engage more with my customers and I used to have a place for that.

01:15:57 ◼   ► It was Twitter and then Twitter became a Nazi bar.

01:16:01 ◼   ► So that's – you know, I left Twitter and there's – and Mastodon is the most direct replacement for me but it's not even close to a replacement.

01:16:10 ◼   ► You know, Mastodon is a certain type of community very heavily there.

01:16:17 ◼   ► It's very heavily nerds.

01:16:20 ◼   ► It's very heavily men.

01:16:22 ◼   ► It's very heavily white men.

01:16:24 ◼   ► It's not a very diverse community.

01:16:27 ◼   ► It's not a very complete community.

01:16:29 ◼   ► And granted, Reddit does not do amazingly in that area but it's better than Mastodon I think.

01:16:37 ◼   ► It's certainly better than what I've seen on Mastodon.

01:16:39 ◼   ► And Mastodon, it's also just small.

01:16:43 ◼   ► It's a much smaller community than Twitter was.

01:16:45 ◼   ► And there's other things like Blue Sky and Threads but they – I don't think it's a good idea for me to try to spread myself across all those different platforms and try to build a presence on all of them.

01:16:59 ◼   ► It's like, I got work to do.

01:17:00 ◼   ► I don't have time for all that.

01:17:02 ◼   ► And I'm not convinced that the outcome there was very good.

01:17:05 ◼   ► I spent years feeling like I was like addicted to Twitter.

01:17:09 ◼   ► That's why I made quitter.

01:17:10 ◼   ► It was because I was addicted to Twitter and I was running time tracking software and I was seeing, wow, I'm spending like five or six hours a week on Twitter.

01:17:20 ◼   ► Like I tried for years to reduce my dependence on that kind of thing.

01:17:24 ◼   ► Now I finally have because Mastodon doesn't have that much going on and I want to jump right into Blue Sky and Threads.

01:17:31 ◼   ► Like no, that's terrible.

01:17:33 ◼   ► That would be a terrible idea for me.

01:17:34 ◼   ► So I decided like I'm not really going to invest much or anything in those platforms.

01:17:38 ◼   ► But Mastodon is still limited.

01:17:40 ◼   ► I'm like, all right, I need to find other ways to engage with my customers and to engage with – and to find new users frankly and to engage with other people.

01:17:47 ◼   ► So email is one way that I hear from customers.

01:17:51 ◼   ► But email has a lot of limits as well.

01:17:53 ◼   ► Like I definitely hear from the most people via email by far.

01:17:57 ◼   ► But if I respond to an email, which it's hard to keep up first of all.

01:18:04 ◼   ► And if I'm relying on email as my main communication venue, it all comes to me.

01:18:10 ◼   ► So no one else can respond to it except me.

01:18:15 ◼   ► Yeah, I could hire somebody, which maybe I'll – I still might do that at some point.

01:18:19 ◼   ► But I've had negative experiences with that in the past.

01:18:21 ◼   ► So I didn't really want to do that.

01:18:22 ◼   ► So anyway, email doesn't really scale because it's just me seeing it all.

01:18:28 ◼   ► No one else can help respond if they have the same problem or they already know the answer.

01:18:32 ◼   ► And when I respond to somebody, only one person will ever see that.

01:18:36 ◼   ► So I'm not really creating like a knowledge base.

01:18:39 ◼   ► I'm not really creating like support articles or any kind of equivalent – I'm not creating search results for other people to find.

01:18:45 ◼   ► And AI is now here in a big way replacing a lot of help and web search.

01:18:54 ◼   ► Now, when you look at what the AI companies are indexing, what their data sources are for things like obscure questions about apps and technical platforms, Reddit is where all that information is coming from.

01:19:08 ◼   ► That's why Reddit is like locking out search engines and starting to license their data like for money because it's very valuable to AI companies.

01:19:16 ◼   ► And they're one of the only places that has that kind of value at that scale.

01:19:20 ◼   ► So Reddit answers and like Reddit posts are becoming the truth input to AI.

01:19:28 ◼   ► Like when an AI model is being trained on a whole bunch of data, what is it being trained on?

01:19:34 ◼   ► Reddit.

01:19:35 ◼   ► And so if somebody asks ChatGPT, hey, in Overcast, how do I do this?

01:19:40 ◼   ► What is it going to be pulling from?

01:19:42 ◼   ► Reddit.

01:19:44 ◼   ► So I thought this is actually a really good time to reconsider whether I should participate in Reddit or not because it seems like there's a lot of reasons pointing to maybe I should give it a try.

01:19:56 ◼   ► But I had such bad experiences browsing it in the past.

01:20:02 ◼   ► I'm like, all right, well, what do I do here?

01:20:05 ◼   ► You know, I don't want to like invade and do like kind of, you know, join the existing one and say, all right, I'm here, everyone.

01:20:12 ◼   ► You know, like that.

01:20:13 ◼   ► I felt like that would be like walking into a tomato launcher.

01:20:16 ◼   ► Like that's that's not a good, you know, entrance, not a good situation to walk into.

01:20:21 ◼   ► So I thought, let me I will create my own.

01:20:24 ◼   ► And the people who want to hate me can have their own space and they can keep hating me.

01:20:27 ◼   ► I'm not going to invade their space.

01:20:29 ◼   ► You know, that's that's kind of like like one thing I mentioned on under the radar is like back like when Twitter was smaller, we would be able to rant about a company on Twitter and we would just rant to each other and it was fine.

01:20:40 ◼   ► And then as Twitter got bigger and all the companies not only got on Twitter, but then started getting like, you know, search bots that would crawl for mentions of them so they can intervene with their customer service teams.

01:20:50 ◼   ► It became a lot less fun to rant about like, oh, I had a bad flight on United because then like you get a message from United customer support.

01:20:59 ◼   ► Hey, we'd love to help.

01:21:00 ◼   ► Please tell us, please DM us so we can chat and work this out for you.

01:21:03 ◼   ► Carrot XP or whatever the initials were the people personally, you know, and it like once the companies were there responding to you and you knew that if you posted something complaining about them, you knew they would see it.

01:21:17 ◼   ► It kind of toned it down a little bit because it kind of like it kind of sucks the fun out of complaining and it turns it into like, OK, well, I know they're going to see this if I post if I mention them like mention their name.

01:21:29 ◼   ► So maybe I'll be a little bit kinder and maybe I'll consider whether I really want to be posting this rant or not.

01:21:35 ◼   ► Well, that happens on Reddit, too, as it turns out.

01:21:37 ◼   ► So I created my own community on Reddit.

01:21:38 ◼   ► And what happened was, first of all, it was not the old community.

01:21:43 ◼   ► Like I let them be and I created my own space.

01:21:45 ◼   ► And I also publicized to my audience.

01:21:48 ◼   ► Here is my Reddit.

01:21:50 ◼   ► And what that created was a very civilized place because, first of all, it was a lot of my people filling it up.

01:21:59 ◼   ► So good.

01:22:00 ◼   ► OK, you know, it's my it's my existing audience on my my social platforms.

01:22:03 ◼   ► I link to it in the app, you know, so like it's my users filling it up instead of just like, you know, a small handful of people who don't like me very much.

01:22:10 ◼   ► But also I was there showing myself to be there.

01:22:14 ◼   ► I was publicly present and I was I posted a lot.

01:22:18 ◼   ► I'm still posting not as much now because I just got back from a vacation, but I'm posting a lot.

01:22:22 ◼   ► And by me being there, people are automatically kind of instinctively just being a lot more civil.

01:22:29 ◼   ► And part of that is because I'm fixing a lot of problems.

01:22:31 ◼   ► And that's that's always a good idea.

01:22:33 ◼   ► But, you know, part of it also is that they know I'm there.

01:22:35 ◼   ► It's the same way, like when people are in their cars, they will behave with their driving in a more rude manner oftentimes than when then what they would do face to face to somebody.

01:22:46 ◼   ► And because it's like when when you're in your car, like the other people are dehumanized.

01:22:51 ◼   ► They're just other cars.

01:22:52 ◼   ► You don't you don't see them as people driving cars.

01:22:54 ◼   ► Oh, that car is a jerk or whatever.

01:22:55 ◼   ► And then but if you're like standing in line at the bank, you wouldn't like, you know, aggressively ride behind the person in front of you trying to get them to hurry up and write that check.

01:23:04 ◼   ► Like, you know, there's there's certain things that like you would never do in person like humanity gets in the way.

01:23:09 ◼   ► Well, that's what I'm seeing on Reddit, like because I am there now with an official presence and an official subreddit and they know that I'm going to be reading most of these posts.

01:23:19 ◼   ► They're being a lot nicer and it's much more like constructive.

01:23:24 ◼   ► It's and look, it's not all roses.

01:23:25 ◼   ► People are people are reporting problems.

01:23:27 ◼   ► Sure.

01:23:28 ◼   ► I get that.

01:23:29 ◼   ► There are problems.

01:23:29 ◼   ► That's why I'm there to try to help fix these problems.

01:23:32 ◼   ► But they're doing it in a civil way.

01:23:34 ◼   ► Like no one's being unreasonably mean.

01:23:38 ◼   ► A couple of times somebody posted a little bit snarky.

01:23:40 ◼   ► It gets downvoted before I even see it.

01:23:42 ◼   ► Usually like it's it's been a much more productive place.

01:23:47 ◼   ► And I think I think people are appreciative that I am there and I'm appreciative of them because they are bringing things to my attention that like that weren't getting through before.

01:23:57 ◼   ► And then every single time I write an answer to a question, first of all, I don't even have to answer them all because other people are answering them, which is amazing.

01:24:07 ◼   ► But then second of all, when I do post an answer to a question, other people can see it and it gets indexed as a search result.

01:24:14 ◼   ► It gets crawled by AI trainers and then it becomes an AI answer when people ask it to AI engines.

01:24:19 ◼   ► And so I feel like I'm like I'm multiplying my effort here, which as a one person business, you always have to find ways to do that.

01:24:26 ◼   ► Like that's that's always a challenge for one person businesses.

01:24:28 ◼   ► Like how do you how do you multiply yourself?

01:24:30 ◼   ► How do you scale yourself?

01:24:32 ◼   ► And this is way better than trying to solve problems by email because other people can help.

01:24:39 ◼   ► And when I if I do jump in and say something, other people can then find that information later.

01:24:44 ◼   ► So so far, it's been a really positive experience.

01:24:49 ◼   ► Again, like it's not all easy because there are certain hard problems that I have to tackle.

01:24:53 ◼   ► But I found I found I'm just being honest about that.

01:24:57 ◼   ► Like so, you know, I took a vacation last week and before I left, I thought I thought of like whether I should do this or not.

01:25:05 ◼   ► But I I decided, you know, I'm going to tell the Reddit I'm going to be gone for a week.

01:25:10 ◼   ► That way they won't get too mad if I'm not responding for a week to anything that's posted.

01:25:17 ◼   ► And I was also trying and maybe I'll get back to this later.

01:25:19 ◼   ► I was trying not to do any work on this trip because this is also kind of a challenge that I've had, a personal challenge.

01:25:26 ◼   ► I am not good at not working and I've been trying to get better at that.

01:25:30 ◼   ► I'm trying to get better, like being able to take a vacation and not bring work with me and not the whole time feel like, oh, I should be doing work.

01:25:39 ◼   ► So that I posted on the Reddit before I left.

01:25:43 ◼   ► I said, I'm going on a personal vacation after all this.

01:25:46 ◼   ► You know, I was 26 happened.

01:25:48 ◼   ► All this stuff has just happened.

01:25:49 ◼   ► I'm going on a vacation for a week.

01:25:51 ◼   ► And I was really afraid of how that would be received.

01:25:56 ◼   ► And every single comment on it, I think everything was positive.

01:26:01 ◼   ► It was all like, good job, man.

01:26:03 ◼   ► You deserve it.

01:26:04 ◼   ► You know, take as long as you need.

01:26:05 ◼   ► Like, I was like, I was shocked.

01:26:07 ◼   ► The difference in attitude between the responses to that and how I was picturing I'd be received on Reddit all these years was striking.

01:26:19 ◼   ► And I think that's largely because I'm there.

01:26:23 ◼   ► I'm present.

01:26:25 ◼   ► I'm engaging.

01:26:26 ◼   ► I'm actually, like, involved now.

01:26:29 ◼   ► And so that seems to have improved everything.

01:26:34 ◼   ► Actually, being in this discussion, being present in this community, leading my own subreddit.

01:26:39 ◼   ► And, you know, and if people want to go hate me somewhere else, they can do that.

01:26:42 ◼   ► I'm not going to interfere with that.

01:26:43 ◼   ► But having my place that is like, here's where I will see things.

01:26:46 ◼   ► I will respond to things.

01:26:47 ◼   ► People have responded to that incredibly well.

01:26:50 ◼   ► So we'll see how it goes.

01:26:53 ◼   ► I mean, I still, you know, this is still early days.

01:26:55 ◼   ► Things can always go badly.

01:26:57 ◼   ► But I'm optimistic.

01:26:59 ◼   ► I think this will actually be a really good change that I've made.

01:27:05 ◼   ► And I think that this community, you know, it's a small community.

01:27:08 ◼   ► There's not that many people in it so far.

01:27:10 ◼   ► But I think it's going to end up being really good.

01:27:13 ◼   ► And I think I'm heading in the right direction.

01:27:15 ◼   ► And so far, you know, the more I participate, the better it gets.

01:27:20 ◼   ► You may be in a honeymoon period, but we'll see.

01:27:22 ◼   ► But, like, that's kind of the issue with things like Reddit and someone mentioned in the chat room, like,

01:27:26 ◼   ► that we should have, like, a members-only Discord or whatever.

01:27:28 ◼   ► In the beginning, it looks like everything's all upside and isn't this great and everyone's happened to be here.

01:27:36 ◼   ► But running any kind of online community, or not even running it, but just, you know,

01:27:43 ◼   ► participating in an online community and having that community be sustained in a way that pleases you,

01:27:52 ◼   ► especially if you're the one who started the community.

01:27:53 ◼   ► You started it with a purpose.

01:27:55 ◼   ► You want something out of it.

01:27:56 ◼   ► You want it to be different than the existing community.

01:27:58 ◼   ► Ideally, it should do X, Y, and Z for you.

01:28:01 ◼   ► You're like, I did it, and so far it's working great.

01:28:03 ◼   ► It's doing what I want.

01:28:04 ◼   ► But how do communities maintain that?

01:28:07 ◼   ► How do they...

01:28:09 ◼   ► You have a way that you want this community to be.

01:28:11 ◼   ► It is that way now.

01:28:12 ◼   ► How do you make it stay that way?

01:28:15 ◼   ► Inevitably, you run up to the exact same things that anyone who's ever had any kind of community,

01:28:19 ◼   ► online or otherwise, but especially online because it's been done at scale, runs into.

01:28:24 ◼   ► What are the rules of this community?

01:28:26 ◼   ► What are the social norms?

01:28:27 ◼   ► How are they enforced?

01:28:28 ◼   ► Do we need moderators?

01:28:30 ◼   ► What are the rules?

01:28:31 ◼   ► Now, we argue about the rules.

01:28:32 ◼   ► Are we banning people?

01:28:34 ◼   ► What are they...

01:28:34 ◼   ► I mean, look at the Procreate community.

01:28:35 ◼   ► They thought it was great.

01:28:36 ◼   ► We're just here sharing art for years and years until, you know, I think they did some kind

01:28:40 ◼   ► of like vote.

01:28:41 ◼   ► Like, we're going to vote them on the community guidelines are.

01:28:43 ◼   ► And like, this is a subreddit with like 100,000 people in it, right?

01:28:47 ◼   ► 43 people voted in the poll about whether they should allow, quote unquote, politics.

01:28:51 ◼   ► And of the 43 people that voted, the majority of them said, no, we shouldn't have politics

01:28:57 ◼   ► here.

01:28:57 ◼   ► And that little decision slept there until someone posted message for the trans flag.

01:29:02 ◼   ► And now it's like, oh, we didn't realize we were in this community.

01:29:04 ◼   ► And now there's a schism and people are branching off and people are angry.

01:29:07 ◼   ► And what happens to the old community?

01:29:09 ◼   ► And it's a thankless job to try to run a community like that or to try to, you know, make sure that

01:29:16 ◼   ► everybody who is participating understands the rules of that community and gets them

01:29:20 ◼   ► enforced and doesn't get mad about it or whatever.

01:29:21 ◼   ► And in many respects, when a community is small and self-selecting, you don't have to worry

01:29:26 ◼   ► about that.

01:29:26 ◼   ► But if it as time goes on, like outside threats, what if people from the other community come

01:29:33 ◼   ► over and decide they're going to participate in this new community because that's where the

01:29:36 ◼   ► action is happening.

01:29:36 ◼   ► But now they are all mean anything.

01:29:38 ◼   ► Is there some mechanism in place to stop them from doing that?

01:29:41 ◼   ► Would you just leave and start another community?

01:29:42 ◼   ► Would you constantly be fleeing from them?

01:29:45 ◼   ► Would you think that everyone else would shout them down?

01:29:47 ◼   ► Like, and then it becomes a screaming match between the old people and the new people.

01:29:51 ◼   ► Online community is really, really hard.

01:29:52 ◼   ► So I hope that doesn't happen to your Reddit.

01:29:54 ◼   ► But like, you always have to think like, well, what's stopping it from happening?

01:29:57 ◼   ► Just that people have decided not to do that so far.

01:30:01 ◼   ► Right.

01:30:02 ◼   ► And, you know, if it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out.

01:30:05 ◼   ► You leave.

01:30:05 ◼   ► Like, so what?

01:30:06 ◼   ► Like, it was good for a time and, you know, whatever.

01:30:08 ◼   ► And as you noted, the information that is there and getting indexed, that is a value,

01:30:13 ◼   ► even if it only lasts a short period of time.

01:30:15 ◼   ► And presumably you're getting value out of it now with interacting with customers and so

01:30:19 ◼   ► on and so forth.

01:30:20 ◼   ► Like all the things you said are true.

01:30:21 ◼   ► And that doesn't change even if things go south sometime in the future.

01:30:25 ◼   ► Although I will point out two things.

01:30:26 ◼   ► One, it would have that exact same value with that AI.

01:30:29 ◼   ► Like Google search index.

01:30:30 ◼   ► Like half the time I'm finding myself on a Reddit thing is because I'm Googling for how

01:30:33 ◼   ► to fix some dishwasher and I land on a Reddit post or whatever.

01:30:35 ◼   ► Like even the shortcuts thing.

01:30:37 ◼   ► That solution that I found in Reddit about like don't overwrite files.

01:30:40 ◼   ► That was just a Google search, right?

01:30:41 ◼   ► Obviously, AI is another ingredient because so many people are using it now who will never

01:30:47 ◼   ► actually go to Reddit.com, which is why Reddit wants money from them because they're not

01:30:50 ◼   ► actually sending any traffic there.

01:30:51 ◼   ► And yes, it's good that you're participating in that as well.

01:30:55 ◼   ► So that has value no matter how this goes.

01:30:56 ◼   ► But one of the people ask about discords that I mentioned before, one of the reasons we

01:31:00 ◼   ► don't have that is because I think all three of us understand that if we were to run an

01:31:05 ◼   ► official discord, now we're taking on a responsibility for governance in a community of fans.

01:31:10 ◼   ► If ATP fans want to have their own discord, they can do that right now.

01:31:15 ◼   ► Like we're nothing we can like we're not stopping them, right?

01:31:18 ◼   ► It's just that we don't want to run that community because it's a lot of work to run any kind of

01:31:24 ◼   ► community and their significant downside.

01:31:26 ◼   ► If we're seen as the people who are setting the rules for the community and forcing them

01:31:29 ◼   ► and people are angry about it.

01:31:30 ◼   ► And it's like, guys, if you want a community of ATP fans, go make one.

01:31:34 ◼   ► And then you get to run the community and you can see how hard it is.

01:31:37 ◼   ► You can make seven communities.

01:31:39 ◼   ► You can have 10 subreddits.

01:31:40 ◼   ► You can have Slack channels.

01:31:41 ◼   ► You can have hotline channels.

01:31:43 ◼   ► You can have IRC channel.

01:31:43 ◼   ► Like that just but running a community is so difficult.

01:31:47 ◼   ► So that's why we haven't ever done that as an official type thing.

01:31:50 ◼   ► I know some people want it, but it's a subset and running that community becomes like a huge amount of work for a small number of people.

01:31:57 ◼   ► And there's only so many things we can all take on since we have so many plates spinning here.

01:32:01 ◼   ► So I don't know.

01:32:03 ◼   ► I'm wary about your red.

01:32:05 ◼   ► I'm glad it's working out for you.

01:32:07 ◼   ► And another thing you mentioned on Under the Radar, which I thought was a good self-knowledge, but also, you know, is kind of a bummer is, I think, underscore s.

01:32:16 ◼   ► Like, oh, no, you said this yourself.

01:32:19 ◼   ► Like, like you're not creating a knowledge base.

01:32:21 ◼   ► Like you're not like making like an actual repository of information.

01:32:25 ◼   ► You're answering people's questions on Reddit and those get indexed.

01:32:28 ◼   ► And that's the system working the way it intended.

01:32:30 ◼   ► And you said, it's because I know I will never actually sit down and make some kind of like official structured knowledge base.

01:32:36 ◼   ► It's like I know myself.

01:32:37 ◼   ► I haven't done that in the past.

01:32:39 ◼   ► I'm probably not going to do it in the future, but I will do this.

01:32:42 ◼   ► I will answer someone's question on Reddit and allow that to be passively indexed.

01:32:48 ◼   ► My pitch would be having some kind of self-created set of documentation, knowledge base or whatever will make answering people's questions on Reddit easier because you can then give a quick summary and link them to the length of your explanation instead of writing it over and over again.

01:33:03 ◼   ► That's the one of the reasons we have a membership fact on ATP dot FM is because people have membership questions and there's no way in how and lots of people they email for support or whatever, because, again, we don't have a community to do this, which is fine.

01:33:16 ◼   ► But I don't want to write the same email reply seven times.

01:33:18 ◼   ► So that's why I have anchor links to the specific question that they asked in the membership fact that gives a longer explanation.

01:33:25 ◼   ► And if five or six people ask a question that becomes frequently asked, guess what?

01:33:29 ◼   ► It goes into the fact, which is kind of like a knowledge base, which gets indexed, which yada yada.

01:33:33 ◼   ► So I would encourage you to at least if something keeps coming up, consider at overcast dot FM having a fact or something where the most frequently asked questions are and you have a formal longer answer.

01:33:46 ◼   ► And you can still informally answer people's questions there.

01:33:48 ◼   ► But I think what you'll see then is people who are answering questions for you will start linking to your fact.

01:33:52 ◼   ► And the fact is a living document that you control.

01:33:54 ◼   ► So unlike the Reddit post, which you're not going to go back and edit years later, you can keep updating the fact to be more accurate and expanded or whatever.

01:34:02 ◼   ► So that's that's my only pitch.

01:34:03 ◼   ► I know you're not going to write a knowledge base.

01:34:04 ◼   ► I know you're not going to write your own extensive documentation or whatever.

01:34:08 ◼   ► But having something that you control to link to from those discussions is very useful.

01:34:14 ◼   ► Yeah, I mean, you are correct.

01:34:16 ◼   ► That would be great.

01:34:18 ◼   ► But the reality is I won't do it.

01:34:21 ◼   ► And it's not like some kind of, you know, principled stand.

01:34:24 ◼   ► It's I don't have time and posting.

01:34:27 ◼   ► You're just not that type of person.

01:34:28 ◼   ► I get it.

01:34:29 ◼   ► Like you said that in the thing.

01:34:30 ◼   ► It's a self-knowledge.

01:34:30 ◼   ► Like I get that.

01:34:31 ◼   ► I'm just saying, like, I think there's a compromise or maybe like some tiny amount of that you could force yourself to do.

01:34:37 ◼   ► It may again, it may scale you better.

01:34:39 ◼   ► It may it may pay dividends.

01:34:40 ◼   ► You're not committing to like, I'm going to write giant formal documentation for everything.

01:34:43 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:34:44 ◼   ► And it's just like it's a time thing.

01:34:47 ◼   ► Like I I barely have enough time to keep up with reading the feedback, trying to respond to some of it.

01:34:55 ◼   ► Like I barely even can reply to most of it, but I try to respond to some of it to also then go and create all this documentation and everything.

01:35:04 ◼   ► Like it's just it's so much easier to just write stuff in a Reddit field and hit submit.

01:35:08 ◼   ► I know.

01:35:09 ◼   ► But like you never.

01:35:10 ◼   ► But what if someone has the same question two months from now?

01:35:12 ◼   ► It's like, I just answered that.

01:35:13 ◼   ► Well, if you had it in a single place, if it's literally frequently asked, put it in the list of frequently asked questions and then you can just link to the longer answer.

01:35:21 ◼   ► So you don't have to rewrite the longer answer over and over again, because there is some common stuff that is always coming up.

01:35:27 ◼   ► Now, maybe not the way you're using it now, because it's more of kind of like feedback and on the fly and what problems are people experiencing or whatever.

01:35:33 ◼   ► And honestly, like obviously the thing you're much more inclined to do is that if lots of people are being confused about a feature, you'll change it in the app to solve that problem and not write a lengthy explanation of how it's supposed to work.

01:35:42 ◼   ► But as you noted about like priority playlists, certain things, there is no one obvious solution that you all just update the app and this will no longer be confusing.

01:35:49 ◼   ► You have to make certain decisions.

01:35:51 ◼   ► There's there's areas where there is no one right answer.

01:35:54 ◼   ► And sometimes it's good to just have an explanation of the way you have chosen to make it work and why.

01:35:59 ◼   ► And you're currently you're putting that in Reddit.

01:36:01 ◼   ► But, you know, if this community lasts for a long time, three years from now, you're going to get sick of writing that same answer over and over again.

01:36:08 ◼   ► You may be who of you to have a paragraph of text somewhere on a website that you can link to.

01:36:13 ◼   ► Yeah, we'll see.

01:36:14 ◼   ► You might be right over time for now.

01:36:16 ◼   ► Or the whole community could be invaded and your lack of formal moderation and code of contactable, you know, and it's not even that the lack like no one is running this like you haven't like designated moderators.

01:36:28 ◼   ► You're certainly not moderating and banning people.

01:36:30 ◼   ► Right.

01:36:30 ◼   ► So like it's it's a very it's an informal community.

01:36:34 ◼   ► It survives based on norms.

01:36:36 ◼   ► And I don't think you you are not going to certainly invest the time to be like now I'm a full time community manager for this subreddit.

01:36:43 ◼   ► Yes, but also like so, you know, all of your your concerns about like the health of a community like that's all valid.

01:36:51 ◼   ► And, you know, that may come to pass.

01:36:54 ◼   ► So far, I don't think the community is big or broad enough to have that be a high risk.

01:37:01 ◼   ► Like, first of all, you know, you use the example of the procreate community procreate has substantially more users on overcast.

01:37:09 ◼   ► I don't know what their numbers are.

01:37:10 ◼   ► I guarantee you it's way more than me.

01:37:12 ◼   ► Yeah, they've got a reddit with 100,000 people.

01:37:14 ◼   ► So these are the nerdiest of the nerds and there's 100,000 of them.

01:37:17 ◼   ► Yeah, their user base is probably 100 times the size of mine.

01:37:19 ◼   ► Like it is way bigger than mine.

01:37:22 ◼   ► So that's a very different beast already just from size.

01:37:27 ◼   ► And and again, like, you know, when you're talking about like publishing art people have made.

01:37:33 ◼   ► Yeah, that's pretty broad.

01:37:35 ◼   ► No one's publishing art.

01:37:36 ◼   ► They've made an overcast the range of potential controversy or, you know, ways in which the community can become toxic.

01:37:44 ◼   ► It's just a much smaller range for the overcast subreddit because it's way fewer people and it's way more narrowly focused.

01:37:51 ◼   ► It probably won't become a problem.

01:37:53 ◼   ► But again, I think I'm too too inexperienced on Reddit to really be able to say that for sure.

01:37:58 ◼   ► But I think it will probably be fine.

01:38:01 ◼   ► I think the bigger risk is that it would die like just from from a lack of traffic fizzle out due to inactivity like the slack did.

01:38:09 ◼   ► Yeah, like I think that's the much bigger risk of like how this fails is it just dies down and there's not enough volume for people to pay attention.

01:38:17 ◼   ► Even if it does, like I said, you will still have that content that will be indexed.

01:38:21 ◼   ► And like, you know, like it's still has produced value that as long as Reddit stays existing and those pages stay on the web and get indexed and so on and so forth, that value will still be there.

01:38:30 ◼   ► But it no longer it no longer be is a an active community where you're getting like real time feedback.

01:38:35 ◼   ► But we'll see like slack is definitely way more hidden and like difficult to get to the barrier to entry is higher, whereas people can find a Reddit page in a million different ways.

01:38:44 ◼   ► And once they land there, people know how to click on a web page.

01:38:47 ◼   ► Like maybe they don't know how to use red, but like I feel like slack with their stupid login system and everything is just so much harder to get into.

01:38:55 ◼   ► Yeah, it's slack.

01:38:56 ◼   ► Like I had the base like I have since shut it down.

01:38:58 ◼   ► I thought the slack would be like more of that kind of community, but it just never got the volume.

01:39:05 ◼   ► It was and the volume, it was never high and it just got lower and lower over time.

01:39:10 ◼   ► So that that just wasn't going to happen long term.

01:39:13 ◼   ► But and I think you're right.

01:39:15 ◼   ► Like slack is made to be a private walled garden.

01:39:19 ◼   ► And for this kind of community, that's just the wrong model.

01:39:22 ◼   ► Like this needs to like if you're trying to make a community around your app, it can't be a slack.

01:39:26 ◼   ► It has to be like a publicly available website that can be indexed and anybody can join.

01:39:31 ◼   ► Like that's that's the way to that's the way to go.

01:39:33 ◼   ► So, again, we'll see how it goes.

01:39:35 ◼   ► It's still early days.

01:39:36 ◼   ► Maybe we'll listen back to this in a year and it all burned to the ground and I'll laugh at how wrong I was.

01:39:43 ◼   ► But I don't think so.

01:39:44 ◼   ► I think it's probably going to be good.

01:39:45 ◼   ► I think it's it's again, it's either going to, you know, fizzle out and be nothing or it'll be sustained and be pretty good.

01:39:52 ◼   ► And I think honestly, I think the latter is more likely.

01:39:55 ◼   ► My best guess is one year from now, the Reddit will look very similar to how it does now in terms of like the tone, the traffic, the usefulness to everybody.

01:40:05 ◼   ► So hopefully I'm right about that and we'll see how it goes.

01:40:08 ◼   ► Well, at least you didn't make a Facebook page.

01:40:11 ◼   ► Oh, God.

01:40:12 ◼   ► Talk about not having control of your community.

01:40:15 ◼   ► All right.

01:40:16 ◼   ► Thanks to our sponsors this week, Squarespace, Delete Me and Zapier.

01:40:20 ◼   ► And thanks to our members who support us directly.

01:40:22 ◼   ► You can join us at atv.fm slash join.

01:40:25 ◼   ► You will get, of course, as mentioned earlier, that membership discount or the sorry, the merchandise discount.

01:40:30 ◼   ► Whoops.

01:40:30 ◼   ► And as well as all of our exclusive content, including Overtime, our weekly bonus topic this week on Overtime.

01:40:36 ◼   ► We're going to be talking about Neo, the household, quote, robot.

01:40:41 ◼   ► Is it a robot?

01:40:42 ◼   ► John will tell us.

01:40:43 ◼   ► And maybe Joanna Stern will have also told us.

01:40:45 ◼   ► We'll talk about that in Overtime.

01:40:47 ◼   ► Thank you so much for listening, everybody.

01:40:49 ◼   ► We'll talk to you next week.

01:40:50 ◼   ► Now the show is over.

01:40:55 ◼   ► They didn't even mean to begin.

01:40:58 ◼   ► Because it was accidental.

01:41:00 ◼   ► Accidental.

01:41:01 ◼   ► Oh, it was accidental.

01:41:02 ◼   ► Accidental.

01:41:03 ◼   ► John didn't do any research.

01:41:06 ◼   ► Marco and Casey wouldn't let him.

01:41:08 ◼   ► Because it was accidental.

01:41:10 ◼   ► Accidental.

01:41:11 ◼   ► Oh, it was accidental.

01:41:13 ◼   ► Accidental.

01:41:14 ◼   ► And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm.

01:41:19 ◼   ► And if you're into Mastodon, you can follow them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S.

01:41:28 ◼   ► That's Casey Liss.

01:41:30 ◼   ► M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M.

01:41:33 ◼   ► And T-Marco.

01:41:34 ◼   ► Armin.

01:41:35 ◼   ► S-I-R-A-C.

01:41:38 ◼   ► U-S-A-S-Y-R-A-C-U-S-A.

01:41:40 ◼   ► It's accidental.

01:41:42 ◼   ► Accidental.

01:41:43 ◼   ► They didn't mean to.

01:41:46 ◼   ► Accidental.

01:41:47 ◼   ► Accidental.

01:41:49 ◼   ► I've recently gotten into very early days of 3D printing.

01:41:58 ◼   ► Oh, what are you trying to print?

01:42:01 ◼   ► And I think that came out sarcastic or about you.

01:42:04 ◼   ► I don't mean it that way.

01:42:04 ◼   ► I'm genuinely asking.

01:42:05 ◼   ► For a long time ago, Tiff got me as like an experimental Christmas gift.

01:42:11 ◼   ► She got me a 3D printer many years ago.

01:42:13 ◼   ► The company, I believe it's Shindo.

01:42:16 ◼   ► The company went out of business long ago.

01:42:18 ◼   ► They had like proprietary filament, which is the rolls of plastic that you would like

01:42:23 ◼   ► that get extruded to print stuff.

01:42:24 ◼   ► And like nobody, like you had to like hack the microchips in their filament with third

01:42:30 ◼   ► party refills to get it to, you know.

01:42:32 ◼   ► So like maintaining that printer over time is difficult.

01:42:36 ◼   ► And it was a very early model.

01:42:38 ◼   ► Like for the time it was good.

01:42:39 ◼   ► But I mean, that was probably almost 10 years ago.

01:42:42 ◼   ► And printers have come a long way since then.

01:42:45 ◼   ► So our plan was, okay, that printer, you know, we will.

01:42:48 ◼   ► I never really used it that much.

01:42:51 ◼   ► I used it basically to print a few HomePod cord management stands and a coffee filter

01:42:57 ◼   ► holder.

01:42:58 ◼   ► And that's about all I ever made with it.

01:43:00 ◼   ► But what happened was as it was sitting, you know, on a shelf for a while, is that over

01:43:04 ◼   ► time Tiff and Adam would play with it.

01:43:07 ◼   ► And especially around Halloween, Adam would often request a Halloween costume that would

01:43:13 ◼   ► be based on like a video game character or something.

01:43:14 ◼   ► And we would be able to 3D print like, you know, a mask or a helmet or something as part

01:43:20 ◼   ► of that costume.

01:43:21 ◼   ► And then over time, Adam learned, oh, you can also 3D print a bunch of like fun little

01:43:25 ◼   ► toys and doodads and stuff.

01:43:27 ◼   ► And so we would print some of those.

01:43:28 ◼   ► And the old 3D printer, eventually we ran out of first party filament and we got tired of

01:43:34 ◼   ► trying to hack it.

01:43:35 ◼   ► And so we're like, you know what, this Halloween, he had a pretty ambitious costume model to

01:43:41 ◼   ► print.

01:43:42 ◼   ► And like, let's get a new 3D printer for the family.

01:43:45 ◼   ► And my interest in it is much more limited.

01:43:49 ◼   ► My interest in it has basically been like, when I have a need for something to be 3D printed,

01:43:56 ◼   ► I will, I will solve that need.

01:43:59 ◼   ► That need doesn't happen very often for me, but it does.

01:44:02 ◼   ► It's like the Wi-Fi thing at the restaurant that you told us about.

01:44:05 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:44:05 ◼   ► So one, like the first thing I had in a long time was, and this was actually with the old

01:44:10 ◼   ► printer, was my Yolink temperature monitors that I put in the restaurant fridges.

01:44:17 ◼   ► Yolink didn't have any kind of bracket.

01:44:19 ◼   ► So I went on, I think it's, is it Tinkercad?

01:44:23 ◼   ► Is that what the site?

01:44:24 ◼   ► Tinkercad.

01:44:25 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:44:25 ◼   ► I like, I asked ChatGPT, like, what do people use?

01:44:27 ◼   ► Like, what do children use to make 3D models from scratch, basically?

01:44:31 ◼   ► And I came upon Tinkercad, which is this like kind of, you know, simplified web app version

01:44:36 ◼   ► of like that that's sponsored by AutoCAD.

01:44:38 ◼   ► That basically is like a web app to make very simple 3D models.

01:44:41 ◼   ► And so I went on Tinkercad, I figured out how to use it.

01:44:44 ◼   ► I have calipers.

01:44:46 ◼   ► And so I like measured the temperature sensor and I made myself a bracket for the Yolink sensor.

01:44:51 ◼   ► And I printed it out in this like ugly red plastic.

01:44:55 ◼   ► It's the only filament we had left.

01:44:56 ◼   ► It was, but it was, it felt very good to have a problem and to solve that problem myself.

01:45:04 ◼   ► And, and, and, you know, I couldn't just go on Amazon and buy a bracket for $6 because

01:45:08 ◼   ► they didn't exist.

01:45:09 ◼   ► Like no one made them.

01:45:10 ◼   ► And there was no model existing on like Thingiverse or Maker World or anything like that.

01:45:14 ◼   ► And so I couldn't use someone else's model.

01:45:15 ◼   ► I had to make my own model from scratch and solve this problem myself.

01:45:21 ◼   ► And it felt pretty good to be honest.

01:45:22 ◼   ► But like, I'm not, I'm not like a maker.

01:45:26 ◼   ► I'm not constantly thinking about new things to print, new things to make.

01:45:30 ◼   ► That's just kind of not how my brain works.

01:45:33 ◼   ► And so I don't really have a frequent use for it.

01:45:35 ◼   ► But the rest of the time, my family is printing fun stuff all the time.

01:45:38 ◼   ► So we got the new printer and a special thanks to our friend Merlin Mann, who's been talking

01:45:43 ◼   ► about 3D printing for a couple of years now on all his various podcasts as he's gotten really

01:45:48 ◼   ► into it.

01:45:49 ◼   ► And I've been following his posts on Mastodon about it and everything else.

01:45:52 ◼   ► And he, a couple of years ago, I had asked him like, hey, whenever I upgrade my printer,

01:45:57 ◼   ► what should I get?

01:45:58 ◼   ► And he recommended the Bamboo company, B-A-M-B-U, because they basically have like, almost

01:46:06 ◼   ► like an Apple-like integrated system.

01:46:08 ◼   ► They sell the printers, they sell spools of filament.

01:46:11 ◼   ► You can use other filament if you want to, but like, if you, if you stick within their system

01:46:14 ◼   ► and get their stuff, it's very easy.

01:46:17 ◼   ► Everything is like, you know, tagged with RFID.

01:46:21 ◼   ► So like you put in, you put in their filament and it'll, it, it reads it and it knows what

01:46:25 ◼   ► it is.

01:46:26 ◼   ► It knows what color it is.

01:46:27 ◼   ► It knows what material it is.

01:46:28 ◼   ► It knows like how hot to set the nozzle and stuff like that.

01:46:31 ◼   ► All these different variables you need with 3D printing.

01:46:32 ◼   ► So if you are not a 3D printing nerd and just want to like get into it, it's a great solution

01:46:40 ◼   ► for that because it, it takes care of a lot of those details for you if you stick within

01:46:44 ◼   ► their system.

01:46:45 ◼   ► And I don't, who cares if I, if I have to only buy their filament to fine, I'm not a power

01:46:51 ◼   ► user here.

01:46:52 ◼   ► I don't need anyone else's filament.

01:46:53 ◼   ► I'll just stick with theirs.

01:46:54 ◼   ► So it makes it easier.

01:46:55 ◼   ► Anyway, so I can now say with a little bit more experience with it, the, first of all,

01:47:02 ◼   ► the bamboo printers are awesome.

01:47:03 ◼   ► Like they have come, 3D printers have come a long way in the last 10 years.

01:47:08 ◼   ► Like a long way, a mile.

01:47:10 ◼   ► Like, oh my God, it's so much easier now.

01:47:12 ◼   ► It's so much better than it used to be.

01:47:14 ◼   ► Um, but also now like I, because it has gotten easier and better and faster, I'm also now finding

01:47:23 ◼   ► a few more opportunities to use it.

01:47:25 ◼   ► So first of all, I'm having fun just like helping my kid with like stuff he wants to

01:47:29 ◼   ► make, you know, we, I got a roll of, of TPU because that's hard to print, but we now have

01:47:35 ◼   ► a nice printer that can print it.

01:47:36 ◼   ► So like, and TPU can be like a little bit squishy.

01:47:39 ◼   ► So that's kind of fun.

01:47:40 ◼   ► You can make, you know, certain different types of things with different behaviors with that.

01:47:43 ◼   ► So like we figured out how do we print TPU?

01:47:45 ◼   ► We figured it out and we printed a few little things and they're squishy and it's delightful.

01:47:48 ◼   ► Um, also the other day I had this stupid idea.

01:47:54 ◼   ► I'm like, you know what?

01:47:55 ◼   ► I have a 3D printer now for the last, I don't know, year, uh, ever since we remodeled this

01:48:01 ◼   ► house are our bedside lamps.

01:48:03 ◼   ► We've redid the bed area and our bedside lamps are these like sconces on the walls and the switches

01:48:11 ◼   ► to them are those little metal knobs, you know, the ones that are like about as thick as like

01:48:17 ◼   ► a pencil eraser and you, and it's a, and they're three way lamps.

01:48:21 ◼   ► So to turn it off, you might have to turn this thing three clicks and they just have those

01:48:26 ◼   ► little like, you know, ridges on these little knobs and next to your bed, first of all, it's

01:48:30 ◼   ► like, that's, they're annoying.

01:48:32 ◼   ► They're hard to turn.

01:48:33 ◼   ► And then like in the winter, if I just, if I just put moisturizer on my hands before I

01:48:37 ◼   ► went to bed, I can't turn those knobs.

01:48:39 ◼   ► You need also good grips for your, uh, lights or you could have hooked up to a smart thing,

01:48:43 ◼   ► which is I'm sure everyone's going to write it and say, you know, you could just clap like

01:48:47 ◼   ► the clapper and they'll turn off.

01:48:48 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:48:48 ◼   ► I tried those things, but basically the way they're wired, it would be very difficult to

01:48:52 ◼   ► have a smart switch.

01:48:53 ◼   ► Um, so I'm like, all right, that's, that's, that option is out.

01:48:55 ◼   ► Smart light bulb is what people are going to suggest.

01:48:58 ◼   ► But of course they're like, you know, custom fixtures with like little tiny, those like

01:49:02 ◼   ► little tiny round bulbs.

01:49:04 ◼   ► Like not for use in enclosed fixtures that a lot of those smart light bulbs will say.

01:49:07 ◼   ► It isn't enclosed.

01:49:08 ◼   ► It's literally, they won't fit.

01:49:09 ◼   ► Like if you, if I tried to find like a smart bulb, it's like, it's almost like the size

01:49:13 ◼   ► of like an oven bulb.

01:49:14 ◼   ► It's like these little tiny round bulbs that go in these things.

01:49:16 ◼   ► They're, you know, they're made to be pretty.

01:49:17 ◼   ► They're not made to be functional.

01:49:18 ◼   ► So I looked, believe me, I looked for smart bulbs that would fit this.

01:49:22 ◼   ► They don't exist.

01:49:23 ◼   ► So I'm like, okay.

01:49:24 ◼   ► So my option is deal with the switch.

01:49:27 ◼   ► Well, instead I just, you know, for the last year I had like this little like USB lamp next

01:49:31 ◼   ► to my bed.

01:49:32 ◼   ► I would just use that instead.

01:49:33 ◼   ► I just wouldn't even use these lamps and neither would tip like, cause it was so much

01:49:36 ◼   ► of a pain in the ass.

01:49:37 ◼   ► So I finally, I had an idea.

01:49:40 ◼   ► I'm like, I have a 3d printer now.

01:49:42 ◼   ► I wonder if I can just make basically like a, like a wing nut, like a, you know, something

01:49:48 ◼   ► that I could stick on top of these.

01:49:49 ◼   ► It looked like a butterfly.

01:49:50 ◼   ► So it's still decorative.

01:49:52 ◼   ► I could actually, I didn't, but I could, but I'm like, so I, I went into Tinkercad and

01:49:58 ◼   ► I got my calipers.

01:49:59 ◼   ► I measured like, all right, the, the, the metal knob is, you know, whatever it is, like seven

01:50:03 ◼   ► millimeters wide and it's about 12 millimeters tall.

01:50:06 ◼   ► So I'm like, all right, I'll make a shape that can fit over that with a hole and then just

01:50:11 ◼   ► two wings sticking out the sides.

01:50:14 ◼   ► And I'll just make basically, yeah, basically a butterfly or a wing nut.

01:50:18 ◼   ► And I'm like, and I figure like, I'll have to like really shove it on there and it'll, it'll

01:50:24 ◼   ► only fit with friction.

01:50:25 ◼   ► So I'll probably, it'll probably take a bunch of tries to get this right and get exactly the

01:50:28 ◼   ► right size.

01:50:29 ◼   ► And maybe I'll have to use TPU so we can like squish around it.

01:50:32 ◼   ► Who knows?

01:50:32 ◼   ► The very first one I printed worked and I stuck it on and I, you got to really shove it on

01:50:41 ◼   ► there.

01:50:41 ◼   ► Cause this is, again, it's a friction fit, but that's by design.

01:50:43 ◼   ► I really shoved it on there and I printed a second one and I put it on the one on Tiff's

01:50:47 ◼   ► side of the bed and I went to bed that night and I went flip, flip, flip, flip.

01:50:51 ◼   ► And I can just flip it.

01:50:52 ◼   ► So the satisfaction I have had out of this stupid little thing, like I had this problem in my

01:50:59 ◼   ► home and I solved it and I solved it really, really well with this perfect solution, with

01:51:08 ◼   ► this weird plastic that looks like wood.

01:51:09 ◼   ► Wow.

01:51:12 ◼   ► The feeling that gives me like, I don't, again, I don't have a lot of need for custom

01:51:17 ◼   ► printed parts in my life, but the rest of my family can have fun with the printer all the

01:51:21 ◼   ► rest of the time.

01:51:21 ◼   ► And when I do have a need for something like this, oh man, it's so satisfying.

01:51:28 ◼   ► I'm so pleased with myself and I'm probably not going to get into, you know, again, very

01:51:33 ◼   ► frequent needs for this.

01:51:35 ◼   ► But when I have that one specific need, it's a great feeling.

01:51:39 ◼   ► So anyway, if you're out there, if you're a 3D printer curious, go to Bamboo Labs.

01:51:44 ◼   ► Like it makes everything easy for you and I can recommend it.

01:51:48 ◼   ► And thanks Merlin for tipping me off to all this stuff.

01:51:51 ◼   ► You know, it's funny you bring this up.

01:51:52 ◼   ► This morning I woke up absurdly early for no good reason.

01:51:55 ◼   ► I couldn't get back to sleep.

01:51:56 ◼   ► And so I was, you know, looking at YouTube and a friend of mine, Eric Wielander, I've brought

01:52:01 ◼   ► him up from time to time on the show.

01:52:02 ◼   ► He does a lot of really great YouTube stuff about smart home and largely around HomeKit.

01:52:06 ◼   ► And I watched, I'd heard of this kind of obliquely before, but I watched a video of his about

01:52:11 ◼   ► grid affinity.

01:52:12 ◼   ► Are you familiar with this?

01:52:14 ◼   ► So what this is, is, and I'm going to, I don't know anything about 3D printing, so

01:52:19 ◼   ► I'm probably going to get some of the details wrong.

01:52:21 ◼   ► But the idea is you print a like grid, a very, very, not very tall, but a grid thing that

01:52:30 ◼   ► you place in like a drawer, for example, right?

01:52:32 ◼   ► And then you print little containers that snap into that grid.

01:52:37 ◼   ► Does that make any sense at all?

01:52:38 ◼   ► So you have like this base plate, if you will, and then you have these bespoke things that

01:52:42 ◼   ► you snap into the base plate.

01:52:44 ◼   ► So you take a drawer that's, you know, just a garbage drawer full of junk.

01:52:48 ◼   ► And now it's a garbage drawer full of organized junk.

01:52:51 ◼   ► And so with custom plastic parts, with custom plastic parts.

01:52:55 ◼   ► Um, and so I've been looking at this and this is not a need I have in my life, but this is

01:53:00 ◼   ► one of those things where I'm trying to invent a reason to buy a 3d printer.

01:53:04 ◼   ► I have no space.

01:53:05 ◼   ► I have no, I have no idea where I could put one.

01:53:07 ◼   ► I don't have the money.

01:53:08 ◼   ► I don't feel like I have the money to just flush on a 3d printer that I'd probably

01:53:12 ◼   ► never use, especially since our local library will let you do 3d prints.

01:53:16 ◼   ► I've never tried this, but I know that that's a service that they offer.

01:53:18 ◼   ► Um, and I don't think it's very expensive, but all that to be said, I'll put a link to

01:53:23 ◼   ► this video on the show notes.

01:53:24 ◼   ► Uh, this grid affinity thing looks really, really slick and I'm very intrigued by it.

01:53:28 ◼   ► I will say also, let me, let me just check to make sure this company still exists.

01:53:31 ◼   ► Yeah, it does.

01:53:32 ◼   ► Um, Adam had a lot of fun when we were living at the beach.

01:53:35 ◼   ► We got him a little, um, 3d printer called toy box.

01:53:39 ◼   ► I don't know if I ever mentioned on the show.

01:53:40 ◼   ► I probably did years ago.

01:53:41 ◼   ► Um, so toy box makes basically tiny 3d printers for children with really easy rolls of filaments

01:53:49 ◼   ► and really easy iPad app to, uh, to control.

01:53:52 ◼   ► And they can, they can like just draw something on the iPad and it'll like print like a, an

01:53:56 ◼   ► extruded version of that.

01:53:57 ◼   ► Like for, you know, to make it, you draw it in two dimensions and it prints an extra thing.

01:54:01 ◼   ► But also there's like this whole catalog on toy box in their app.

01:54:04 ◼   ► You can print a whole bunch of little, little toys and stuff like that.

01:54:07 ◼   ► And it's very, it's, you know, easy enough for children to use easy enough for adults

01:54:12 ◼   ► to use who aren't 3d printing nerds also, which is nice.

01:54:14 ◼   ► Um, we, and I, I haven't looked at toy box in a while cause we have, we had like the big

01:54:19 ◼   ► printer then, but we, we had a lot of fun with toy box and Adam really enjoyed it.

01:54:23 ◼   ► So if, if you want to get into like, you know, baby 3d printing in a very simple way, um,

01:54:29 ◼   ► and you don't need to print anything very large, uh, toy boxes is something to look

01:54:32 ◼   ► at, um, you know, just make sure it's still good.

01:54:34 ◼   ► It was good years ago, do some research, make sure it's still good, but it probably is.

01:54:38 ◼   ► This maybe is the way that modern children learn their modern modified version of patience.

01:54:44 ◼   ► And, uh, when I was a kid, the way you learned, the way you learned patience was that, uh, you

01:54:49 ◼   ► would save up your money to buy something that you had seen advertised in the back of a magazine

01:54:54 ◼   ► for months and months, like in some terrible low resolution postage stamp size ad at the back

01:54:59 ◼   ► of a magazine that says, get this model plane for just X amount of dollars and you save your

01:55:03 ◼   ► allowance and it's got a little thing and you make a little envelope and you get your parents

01:55:07 ◼   ► to give you a stamp and you mail it or whatever.

01:55:09 ◼   ► And it's supposed to come in four to six weeks and four to six weeks when you're a kid, seems

01:55:13 ◼   ► like a thousand years.

01:55:15 ◼   ► Eventually, usually after, after days and days of waiting for it, you forget that you even

01:55:20 ◼   ► ordered it.

01:55:20 ◼   ► And it seemed, what seems like, you know, years in the future, something arrives in your mail

01:55:24 ◼   ► and you're like, what the hell is this?

01:55:25 ◼   ► You're like, oh, it's that thing I had forgotten entirely about it.

01:55:28 ◼   ► Anyway, that's how my generation learned patience.

01:55:30 ◼   ► The way I think modern children learn patience is they get a toy 3D printer and they're like,

01:55:35 ◼   ► I'm going to have this, this cool toy airplane.

01:55:36 ◼   ► And they're like, okay, and print.

01:55:39 ◼   ► And then they run over to the thing and they're like, where's my airplane?

01:55:41 ◼   ► And they have to wait like three hours for it to come.

01:55:44 ◼   ► And three, three hours is the modern equivalent of four to six weeks.

01:55:47 ◼   ► That's true.