00:00:00 ◼ ► from relay this is upgrade episode 584 for october 6th 2025 it's q4 now can you believe it
00:00:17 ◼ ► this episode is brought to you by squarespace fitbod and delete me my name is mike hurley
00:00:29 ◼ ► and most lucrative of all quarters the holiday quarter who couldn't love the holiday quarter
00:00:35 ◼ ► i have a snow talk question for you put you really puts you in the spirit it really does
00:00:40 ◼ ► when you say it like that discuss the lucrative nature of the holiday quarter luka says where
00:00:45 ◼ ► do you like to sit in a movie theater all the way in the back somewhere in the middle up front like
00:00:50 ◼ ► a weirdo what about apple events assuming you could sit anywhere i will say they didn't luka did not say
00:00:58 ◼ ► weirdo now you've laughed at it i will tell you what luka actually said luka said psychopath which
00:01:03 ◼ ► felt like a little bit aggressive so i changed it to weirdo yeah yeah by the way the psychopaths sit
00:01:09 ◼ ► in the back and ponder who will be their prey oh no um yeah i mean it's just have you seen a movie
00:01:16 ◼ ► with the psychopath that's what they do all right uh i sit in the middle uh in the middle middle middle
00:01:21 ◼ ► is basically it at an apple event i prefer to sit further back because i don't need to get up close
00:01:27 ◼ ► unless uh back in the day when i used to bring a like a camera with a long lens and i took pictures
00:01:31 ◼ ► of people on stage it was different but now there there is very little of interest happens on stage
00:01:35 ◼ ► um other than good morning so i don't but uh back in the day uh that's i i i was happy to sit a little
00:01:43 ◼ ► further back and that was okay but generally middle middle what about you mike yeah middle middle that is
00:01:48 ◼ ► the ideal and i also like movie theaters that have sofas in them rather than individual chests
00:01:52 ◼ ► oh man they just they just retrofitted our um our local movie theater with big recliners with giant
00:02:00 ◼ ► like trays for food and stuff so well and uh and and it's and they're high enough up from the next row
00:02:07 ◼ ► that there's nothing the person in the row below you can do to block the screen and it's really sweet
00:02:12 ◼ ► it's really nice we have not had that before here it was really great if you would like to send in a
00:02:17 ◼ ► question to help us open a future episode of the show just go to upgradefeedback.com and send in
00:02:22 ◼ ► your snell talk question it is time for some follow-up before that happy birthday jason
00:02:27 ◼ ► thank you mike happy birthday jason snell i'm working on my birthday like any other holiday we work
00:02:35 ◼ ► on upgrade yes i will not let him take his birthday off yeah make him work double hard on his birthday
00:02:39 ◼ ► actually sorry jason that's how it goes that's how it goes happy birthday though mean old mike
00:02:44 ◼ ► uh i have a birthday present for you okay i installed os mac os tahoe i installed tahoe
00:02:52 ◼ ► that's what was that going i installed os tahoe 26 well the rest of them are something os 26 mac yes
00:03:00 ◼ ► os 26 os 26 mac os 26 mac tahoe also known as tahoe if you don't think it's called that check
00:03:10 ◼ ► about this mac that's what they call it os 26 mac tahoe um i have some i have some i have some
00:03:17 ◼ ► some comments and concerns if i'm being honest okay i will say that i'm not particularly happy
00:03:22 ◼ ► as a tahoe user um and in in ways that are maybe different to other people like overall the ui is
00:03:30 ◼ ► like fine like it doesn't bother me um but there are things there are decisions that are strange so
00:03:36 ◼ ► one is if you use dark mode your widgets are in light mode unless you have dark icons this was
00:03:45 ◼ ► something that was in one of the ios betas but they fixed it that you could have light icons but dark
00:03:53 ◼ ► mode would make your widgets dark like it's the dark mode that's tied to the light and dark widgets not
00:03:59 ◼ ► whether your icons are light and dark does that make sense so you could have light mode and if you set
00:04:04 ◼ ► your icons to be dark it would change your widgets to dark now that is the wrong thing in my opinion to
00:04:11 ◼ ► change to decide what changes whether widgets are light or dark it should be the system rather than the
00:04:16 ◼ ► icons there was a point i think in the in it was either in ios 18 or ios 26 where that happened and they
00:04:24 ◼ ► they broke they like changed the way the systems work but that did not come to os mac 26 tahoe
00:04:30 ◼ ► tahoe edition yeah i i like to have my system in dark mode and my icons in light mode but now that
00:04:36 ◼ ► means my my widgets are in light mode which is not what i'm looking for um the icon jail is real bad
00:04:44 ◼ ► like i hate it my doc is essentially unreadable in in spots now because you know me i have a lot of
00:04:52 ◼ ► things in my dark i have a lot of apps open all the time yeah and i have it on the right side so now
00:04:57 ◼ ► some of my icons the actual icon is so small i can't even see it anymore uh i don't like a gray square
00:05:04 ◼ ► with a little a little blob of color in there uh i'm a bartender user via setup and the version of
00:05:12 ◼ ► bartender on setup is just completely broken like it just does not work so um i was talking to you
00:05:19 ◼ ► and steven about this and steven said that he had just decided that he was just gonna not use one of
00:05:24 ◼ ► these apps anymore um and i have gone down that route so i just spent some time in system preferences
00:05:29 ◼ ► turning a bunch of stuff off yep um and i think that's just how i'm gonna run now i'm doing that
00:05:39 ◼ ► which steven's response was how do you find it thanks get it together hack it what are you doing
00:05:47 ◼ ► uh a little dad jokes there so uh anyway i did quit out of after i found it i quit out of hidden bar
00:05:54 ◼ ► and uh it's okay i think the big issue is i'm on a studio display now and on a laptop it becomes a
00:05:59 ◼ ► bigger problem yeah with lots of extra stuff but you can tell a lot of stuff can i talk okay
00:06:06 ◼ ► unexpected turn here um i use rocket now to do emoji because i used to use launch bar and that's gone
00:06:14 ◼ ► yeah and i have a real problem with an issue in rocket that i want to address here oh okay uh which is
00:06:25 ◼ ► in the advanced preferences because it it puts a thing up in the menu bar and i don't need the rocket
00:06:29 ◼ ► menu bar i know i i just i i there's no scenario in which i care about it enough to have it be up there
00:06:37 ◼ ► yeah um and at the bottom of the advanced pane it says want to hide rockets menu bar icon
00:06:44 ◼ ► question mark and it's blue so i click on it thinking it's a link to a page that will tell me
00:06:51 ◼ ► what to do the link goes to another app that hides menu bar icons on your mac yeah um i don't i don't
00:07:03 ◼ ► like that the answer is another it is from the same developer but i don't i don't love that and i
00:07:08 ◼ ► don't love that when i installed it it wanted to add a bunch of stuff and then upsell me on the pro
00:07:14 ◼ ► version of that app and i i'm not trying to beat up on this developer but like if you've got an app
00:07:22 ◼ ► that hides things from the menu bar uh you've got code that hides things from the menu bar use it in
00:07:30 ◼ ► use it in your app like just it it makes me feel so bad because it's like a limitation of this app so
00:07:37 ◼ ► great that it's in the settings and all it is is an upsell for a different app that does the thing that
00:07:43 ◼ ► you want it to do i don't i i do not appreciate it uh at all so so rocket is currently in my menu bar
00:07:50 ◼ ► but it may not be for long if you get what i'm saying right and it's not that i'm going to go
00:07:58 ◼ ► install his other app it's it's going to want to find an alternative to it because i i really just
00:08:02 ◼ ► how i don't know that really bugged me that there that it anticipates my problem and then just tries
00:08:07 ◼ ► and literally it's not even like explaining it it's literally just a link to the product page for the
00:08:12 ◼ ► other app like you so what is it is it an ad is it support i don't know i hated it so yeah it's still
00:08:19 ◼ ► up there i can see what i wouldn't know you but most most of the stuff up there you can make
00:08:30 ◼ ► and do that and then over time as um menu bar items become um controls which is a thing apple is pushing
00:08:37 ◼ ► um not only can they live in control center which is a a way that's in the system for you to put
00:08:42 ◼ ► controls under a drop down yeah but everything that's a control is removable from the menu bar
00:08:49 ◼ ► yeah it can it you can choose if you want it in the menu bar or not or in a drop down or not
00:08:54 ◼ ► i would say if the apps that i do want in my menu bar i don't think any or many have adopted the new
00:09:02 ◼ ► controls system oh almost nothing has yet but i feel like over time that will probably happen yeah
00:09:07 ◼ ► all right spotlight okay it's nice but i have some problems with it that i want to relay to you
00:09:17 ◼ ► one is it cannot see my files from dropbox and i know that you explained i believe on a previous
00:09:23 ◼ ► episode in your review that there is a extension to the file provider api that they need to integrate
00:09:28 ◼ ► with but these they exist in finder like i don't understand why they're at dropbox i mean i have
00:09:37 ◼ ► many problems with the way that apple has forced companies like dropbox to adopt the file provider
00:09:43 ◼ ► apis therefore making them way worse than they were before for a from a user perspective but i find that
00:09:50 ◼ ► really annoying but i know that there's a result for it or whatever but the thing i can see files in
00:09:55 ◼ ► dropbox it's not showing me anything like if i search for files or folders so here's the thing
00:10:01 ◼ ► i think something might be wrong because also i cannot find my wife in contact search that doesn't
00:10:09 ◼ ► seem right does it okay you've got something going on there something's going on right i can i can find
00:10:14 ◼ ► i can find files in dropbox in spotlight even if they're not downloaded i can find them on the file
00:10:23 ◼ ► name what they're trying to do is they're adding an extension that allows you to search when you do
00:10:30 ◼ ► a search um the file provider so you know um you know the deal where if it's not if the file isn't
00:10:37 ◼ ► downloaded on dropbox you can't search for the text inside the file because the file's not actually there
00:10:42 ◼ ► right so they they have added an api that theoretically allows you to when you do a spotlight search one of the
00:10:51 ◼ ► things it does is it will it will ask dropbox if it added this feature for files that that match that
00:10:58 ◼ ► and dropbox has all your files so dropbox can do a text search and kick back results that would display
00:11:03 ◼ ► in spotlight which is great because that's one of the weaknesses of having files offloaded is that you
00:11:09 ◼ ► can't do a search like that but what you're seeing is suggest to me that that um drop or spotlight's not
00:11:15 ◼ ► indexing your mac properly love to see it how enough you know what i mean like how am i supposed to fix
00:11:20 ◼ ► this you know like like even uh i searched for contacts and pressed tab right like it's search of
00:11:27 ◼ ► his contacts and i search my wife's name and it's like ah there's nothing there man it's like okay
00:11:31 ◼ ► the old spotlight could do this you know my my uh this is not now we've left i'm not trying to defend
00:11:40 ◼ ► apple here we're in troubleshooting mode here so i will just say in settings under spotlight there are
00:11:45 ◼ ► some things you could toggle you know toggle contacts on and off um and then also under uh
00:11:51 ◼ ► what is it there's somewhere you can do uh search privacy and you can go in there and like drag your
00:11:58 ◼ ► hard drive in and then and then drag it back out again and it it basically erases your index and it
00:12:04 ◼ ► forces a re-index so there's some some things to try from a troubleshooting perspective but it's not
00:12:08 ◼ ► great not great no i'll play around with it i suppose but i like the i like what i have been
00:12:13 ◼ ► able to use so far but yeah some of the kind of some features seem like regressions but these seem
00:12:20 ◼ ► like these weird things where i've got some strange outliers i mean i just i would naturally have assumed
00:12:25 ◼ ► that the new spotlight would would force a re-index anyway but maybe that isn't happening or maybe it
00:12:31 ◼ ► broke for me and i don't know what's going on there but that's something to try out um i also i
00:12:36 ◼ ► the menu bar is fine for me like like visually just like the menu bar looks good um however there i have
00:12:43 ◼ ► had this weird thing where i keep thinking my windows are not correctly sized like because it's like oh my
00:12:47 ◼ ► window's not going to the top oh it is going to the top the top has changed uh and so it's funny
00:12:53 ◼ ► i had a whole section in my i think i took it out of my review but it was in the preview which is
00:12:57 ◼ ► it is i don't have a problem with the transparent menu bar but what it means is if you've got a
00:13:02 ◼ ► a very nice wallpaper behind it when your window is at the top of the screen especially if you don't
00:13:07 ◼ ► have lots and lots of menu bar items there's this little gap between where the menus go over and where
00:13:12 ◼ ► the menu bar items go over yeah that it just shows your your wallpaper but you can't actually
00:13:19 ◼ ► put anything up there it's still the menu bar even though it's invisible so it's like there's a
00:13:23 ◼ ► little force field up there that's like nope nope you can't go up there it's weird it's just weird
00:13:28 ◼ ► it is strange uh but overall you know it's fine i do want to fix the spotlight thing but yeah i'm not
00:13:38 ◼ ► like i think you automations may be a thing that you can do some more of yeah you might like those
00:13:43 ◼ ► yeah you're probably right you're probably maybe i don't know brian wrote in and there's something
00:13:49 ◼ ► interesting and says it seems like a new there is a new feature of camera control in ios 26 where a
00:13:54 ◼ ► user can actually select and reorder what functionality is available to control when utilizing the camera
00:14:00 ◼ ► control this could lead to accidental uh to less accidental changes and make it more useful depending
00:14:06 ◼ ► on the customization and the person whether who light swipe or press after the menu is up interaction
00:14:11 ◼ ► can also be done through touch as well you can find these settings under settings camera control and
00:14:16 ◼ ► then camera control then customize so you can there are a bunch of things like you can turn off the
00:14:22 ◼ ► swipe action completely um you can i've done it now so basically it will just change cameras if i
00:14:28 ◼ ► swipe it it won't do anything else and i can't access anything else and there are also a bunch of other
00:14:34 ◼ ► um but like toggles that i hadn't seen before so because if you're if you're someone who's frustrated with
00:14:40 ◼ ► camera control you may be able to go in and tweak it a little bit to to what you would desire so i
00:14:46 ◼ ► went in and did that and so now i don't have to like swipe through anything else if i don't want to
00:14:51 ◼ ► all right that was interesting uh and also want to just mention the saint jude campaign is now over it
00:14:58 ◼ ► just before we started recording today's show uh this year the relay community has raised
00:15:03 ◼ ► seven hundred and fifty three thousand seven hundred and fifty six dollars for the kids of saint jude
00:15:08 ◼ ► meaning that oh since 2019 we have now raised a total of 4.8 million dollars so pretty good so much
00:15:17 ◼ ► pretty good thank you our goal was 700 we went to 753 756 and um when we hit 700 i i said to you and
00:15:27 ◼ ► steven go for 750 yep and then over the weekend i got the text it was like well we did it there it
00:15:33 ◼ ► is 750 so that's pretty great so thank you everyone for your support to again everybody out there now we
00:15:39 ◼ ► look forward to next september yep just around the corner any day now any day now this episode is
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00:17:43 ◼ ► and you may want to celebrate only only fun stuff right unfortunately not unfortunately i have a i have
00:17:50 ◼ ► a not fun topic only fun stuff right yeah i have a not fun sorry i was doing that star wars meme there
00:17:55 ◼ ► uh and i will just say like i guess to to our listeners who for whatever reason don't want to hear
00:18:01 ◼ ► political style discussions chapter markers are right there for you chapter marker you can jump
00:18:07 ◼ ► ahead if you want to last week apple removed the ice block app from the app store ice block is an app
00:18:14 ◼ ► that is intended to allow users to report the activity and location of united states customs and immigration
00:18:20 ◼ ► offices and allow allowing people to avoid interactions with them this app is no longer available for
00:18:28 ◼ ► download but still operates on phones it has already been installed on but that there is actually an
00:18:33 ◼ ► interesting distinction there apple can do this the latter if they want to like it is possible for
00:18:38 ◼ ► apple to render an app completely useless uh but it is now uh none of non-downloadable from the app
00:18:45 ◼ ► store uh the developer was told by apple it had been removed for quote objectionable content
00:18:50 ◼ ► and the trump administration has taken credit for it saying that they demanded apple remove it
00:18:55 ◼ ► because i pressed on it um you have to remind me because i can never remember this in this scenario
00:19:01 ◼ ► if apple has removed it can it be re-downloaded if somebody gets a new phone i don't believe so
00:19:07 ◼ ► yeah i think if the developer a developer can remove an app for sale and it no longer shows in search
00:19:13 ◼ ► but you can still download it but i think if apple was like hey we're taking this down it's like gone
00:19:19 ◼ ► so yeah i think that's the difference uh apple has done this kind of thing before uh in the past
00:19:26 ◼ ► they removed an app called hkmap.live this helped people uh get together for protests in hong kong
00:19:35 ◼ ► um and apple did this after they were pressured by the chinese government to take it out of the store
00:19:40 ◼ ► i will include a link in the show notes to uh a piece that john guber wrote during fireball
00:19:54 ◼ ► or that they are would be willing to cross like what would have to happen and he kind of references that
00:19:59 ◼ ► apple could have if they wanted to they could have challenged this in court but they have
00:20:04 ◼ ► decided not to well i mean we go even before that this is this was not a formal request
00:20:10 ◼ ► this was this was not a legal request this was the attorney general saying this is bad they should
00:20:16 ◼ ► remove it and they removed it without any legal challenge whatsoever so let me just press on that
00:20:21 ◼ ► a little bit because obviously you understand your system greater than me the attorney general making
00:20:25 ◼ ► that request that wouldn't be kind of like seen to be legal even though it's the attorney general
00:20:31 ◼ ► like it's because no paperwork was filed is that what you're saying yeah that's that's it
00:20:34 ◼ ► it's it's a it's a personal it's basically the attorney general saying i can't believe they got this
00:20:39 ◼ ► out they should take it down and they took it down yeah that that's you know now maybe i don't know
00:20:43 ◼ ► it's possible that there was like a letter that was like if you don't do this we're going to prosecute
00:20:48 ◼ ► you or we're going to take this to a judge or whatever but that's the point is like they didn't
00:20:53 ◼ ► this isn't like they defied a order by a judge to do it they they defied you know they went along with
00:21:00 ◼ ► a you know quote-unquote order that was just a person in the government saying something and and
00:21:05 ◼ ► that that's they decided that that was look so much of what's going on here is about and by that i mean
00:21:20 ◼ ► about what what you do where there are not rules that are hard and fast they're more like everybody
00:21:28 ◼ ► accepts that this is the process you go through and the current administration is not interested in
00:21:34 ◼ ► everybody accepts they just want to do what they want to do and so you end up in a situation where
00:21:40 ◼ ► all sorts of stuff is happening that is unusual let's just say so that's that's the environment
00:21:46 ◼ ► going on here but you're right i mean bottom line is apple apple has generally adhered to an internal
00:21:57 ◼ ► policy or philosophy or however you want to say which is like if the government to at least to a point
00:22:05 ◼ ► if the government of a territory says uh this is this app will harm the security of law enforcement
00:22:15 ◼ ► for example um they just say oh okay you know you're you're the you're the law enforcement so if you say
00:22:24 ◼ ► that this is dangerous to law enforcement officers we're just going to let it go the debate here is about
00:22:30 ◼ ► norms right the debate here is what this app is meant to do is not tell and i mean i guess people
00:22:39 ◼ ► can differ about this but is not to tell vicious criminals where to find cops to attack them it's
00:22:47 ◼ ► about telling people who might get swept up in an immigration raid who may actually be u.s citizens
00:22:55 ◼ ► but that hasn't stopped those people from getting thrown in jail for days and things like that
00:22:59 ◼ ► where the immigration people are it is it is apple's policy at least pretends to have this assumption
00:23:09 ◼ ► that um of course we all agree that we don't want apps that make the world unsafe for our first
00:23:17 ◼ ► responders right it's it's a it's a good faith to a certain point at least argument but the way that
00:23:25 ◼ ► this is being executed the details of who the attorney general is and what she does and what's going on
00:23:31 ◼ ► with the immigration authorities has you know it's a different situation and i think that what's
00:23:36 ◼ ► interesting about apple's response here is that apple has chosen to just go along like it goes along
00:23:42 ◼ ► with requests in other locations and saying look the local authorities say that this is bad
00:23:46 ◼ ► and it very much is a we don't want to get into it so we're just gonna just gonna do this and move
00:23:53 ◼ ► along that it that's that's how i really strongly read it is that attorney general of a territory says
00:23:59 ◼ ► this is dangerous and apple's like sure fine gone and that and as you pointed out this is not a new policy
00:24:04 ◼ ► on their part this is a this is what's different about it is apple does not see this as being the same
00:24:11 ◼ ► as something like decrypting somebody's data on a phone this is the as we all know the squishiest of
00:24:19 ◼ ► realms it's app store policy where there are some written down policies somewhere but basically apple just
00:24:27 ◼ ► kind of can do whatever and they control the platforms so they you know they they are the they're this
00:24:37 ◼ ► they've set up themselves as the ultimate they're the judge and jury they're the legal system for the
00:24:43 ◼ ► app store they can just pull things from the app store and and that's what happened here i'm gonna
00:24:49 ◼ ► ask you some questions get some of your thoughts on this a little bit more because i'm just trying to
00:24:54 ◼ ► like trying to tease apart some of this right so like if apple did had decided to take this to court
00:25:02 ◼ ► is there a scenario where they could have won against the government do you think i honestly
00:25:09 ◼ ► don't well here's the problem i honestly don't know what laws are on the books yeah in terms of
00:25:14 ◼ ► enabling you know if they say this enables violence against police officers is there a law i don't know
00:25:19 ◼ ► i don't know if there is if there is or if there's a again because of the world we live in now or if
00:25:25 ◼ ► there's a judge that they can go to who will basically say yeah sure this law fits um then
00:25:31 ◼ ► apple could theoretically in the in that case could have been forced to do this but yeah um it it it
00:25:38 ◼ ► never got to that and you know i'm i'm skeptical about that like i said i mean you mentioned john
00:25:45 ◼ ► gruber mentioning where where is the line drawn i think clearly app squishy app store policy about
00:25:52 ◼ ► government saying don't do that is not where apple draws the line i would also say that you know
00:25:59 ◼ ► apple is wary apple has got a lot of people in a lot of places telling apple what to do involving the
00:26:04 ◼ ► app store and that apple is also really wary of like keeping its control over the app store by having
00:26:09 ◼ ► policies like this um i i think the real broader question is if it was a if it was a security or
00:26:18 ◼ ► privacy breaking request i i kind of assume that that's where they would draw the line and start
00:26:24 ◼ ► to fight it maybe not but well i just don't know like i just don't i don't think that we that's been
00:26:30 ◼ ► tested it would be interesting to find out because that's where i think you know surely john gruber's point
00:26:39 ◼ ► and the broader point here and the john oliver point made a couple weeks ago on his show
00:26:43 ◼ ► is at what point do you realize that saying yes to the bully never stops the bully yeah and the only
00:26:52 ◼ ► way you can try to stop the bully is to say no um when does apple say no to things that the
00:27:01 ◼ ► administration wants them to do and we saw with the disney thing that disney finally got in a point
00:27:07 ◼ ► so uncomfortable that they couldn't avoid it they had to either bring jimmy jimmy kimmel back or not
00:27:15 ◼ ► and people were going to be angered by one or the other yeah and their delay i mean we did a whole
00:27:22 ◼ ► podcast about this last week on downstream but um the delay allowed other voices to come out and say
00:27:29 ◼ ► oh the fcc commissioner shouldn't have said that and and republican voice is saying that and that
00:27:33 ◼ ► gave disney a little more cover and a little more time to let jimmy kimmel come back but what my point
00:27:39 ◼ ► is they did they were ultimately forced out of you know they couldn't hide anymore they had to make a
00:27:45 ◼ ► decision and that's the decision they made and now they have to live it down and if there are
00:27:48 ◼ ► repercussions for them and there's revenge taken against them they're going to have to fight it
00:27:52 ◼ ► because that's just how it is is there a line for apple i would like to think that there is and my
00:27:58 ◼ ► guess is that that would be the line would be we want actually to break into customer data right or
00:28:04 ◼ ► surveil them in a way that apple is uncomfortable with that that might be the moment where they say
00:28:09 ◼ ► no no because it is too much in conflict with everything else that they've stated but we don't
00:28:14 ◼ ► know but this one this one again it's the squishy app store like this i feel like this was easy for them
00:28:19 ◼ ► because apple arbitrarily removes things in general all the time and certainly at the request of
00:28:25 ◼ ► government officials and and i think part of the clash here is that there are a lot of people out
00:28:29 ◼ ► there who are like yeah but pam bondy as is not like any other attorney general ever and she does lots
00:28:35 ◼ ► of things for political reasons and they're not based on the law at all and you can't listen to her
00:28:39 ◼ ► and i guess what apple uh the people involved in this would probably respond is i know what you're
00:28:45 ◼ ► saying but she is the attorney general of the united states of america and she is making noise
00:28:50 ◼ ► about what she says is a threat against law enforcement and do we want to go down that path
00:28:55 ◼ ► of interpreting this differently and you know the the expedient path which i feel like is what they did
00:29:01 ◼ ► here is just say well it just goes into the invisible app store machine and that app disappears and google
00:29:08 ◼ ► by the way did also remove it from google play the difference there is that you can sideload apps and
00:29:24 ◼ ► being that like you know essentially this is apple kind of you know you talk about law enforcement like
00:29:31 ◼ ► legitimizing ice as a law enforcement agency which it's questionable right like i think it's quite
00:29:37 ◼ ► it is questionable like what they are doing how they are doing it and how this is formed is is
00:29:43 ◼ ► something that is a hot button this is what i mean about norms though this is what i mean might mean
00:29:48 ◼ ► about norms is ice isn't a law ice is a law enforcement agency then we have to debate but is it being used as a
00:29:55 ◼ ► law enforcement agency is it being used properly as a law enforcement agency is it being used in in in bad
00:30:02 ◼ ► ways and apple doesn't want to go there right there's like there's a way that it needs to be
00:30:07 ◼ ► defined a bit more clearly i think because it's like the the customs agency exists and immigration
00:30:14 ◼ ► exists but what is being referred to as ice now it's like something completely seems to be completely
00:30:19 ◼ ► different to what it was before right yeah but this is this is the the the challenge if you're first
00:30:25 ◼ ► off there's there's the world in which these rules were made right and this comes back to the fact that
00:30:30 ◼ ► that that uh in the world where these rules were made police and other law enforcement were being
00:30:38 ◼ ► used differently than they're currently being used yeah but then so so the the this is the breaking of
00:30:42 ◼ ► norms but on top of that is apple not wanting to be bothered because if imagine as a big corporation
00:30:52 ◼ ► you put yourself in the position of saying well i know that the attorney general said this about this
00:30:59 ◼ ► part of the government but we a corporation in this country have decided that the attorney general is
00:31:06 ◼ ► unreasonable and that that arm of the government is not really law enforcement it's bad doing bad
00:31:12 ◼ ► things and so we're going to ignore it not saying that they could do that i'm saying i understand why the
00:31:19 ◼ ► people involved especially in app store policy where it's all about like the letter of these
00:31:25 ◼ ► laws that are made up by apple looks at it and says i don't want to go down that path of starting to
00:31:32 ◼ ► say but if you know we're going to follow government requests unless we decide that they're bad in which
00:31:38 ◼ ► case we won't like they they they don't seem to be the people who do that sort of thing and and and
00:31:43 ◼ ► that's what's going on here but i mean and again i'm not just to be clear because people get really
00:31:47 ◼ ► angry about this yeah i don't endorse this approach but i understand it like i mean i don't endorse the
00:31:54 ◼ ► app store being the only path onto the devices which is at the root of that why this is a problem is that
00:31:59 ◼ ► if apple decides no one can run ice block no one can run ice block because there's no other alternative
00:32:05 ◼ ► to get it on your phone that is not great because it puts all the power in the hands of apple and if
00:32:11 ◼ ► apple decides to act on a request by the attorney general then that's like that's it that's it and
00:32:18 ◼ ► there's there's no there's no court of appeal for that really yeah and you are only like two jumps from
00:32:25 ◼ ► apple endorses ice right yeah apple by making this move has legitimized the attorney general's
00:32:41 ◼ ► valid first responding law enforcement just doing their jobs and i'm sure there are people out there
00:32:47 ◼ ► listening who are like well that's what they are and other people strongly disagree although even then
00:32:52 ◼ ► there's nuance right you could also argue it's not i mean my argument would be i don't think this is
00:32:57 ◼ ► about violence at all i think this is about protest and this is about protecting people who again i i read
00:33:04 ◼ ► a story this weekend about a guy who's a u.s citizen who's been um picked up and imprisoned by ice twice and
00:33:10 ◼ ► he's got a real id which is our biometric authenticated id and they just said it's fake and took him away
00:33:17 ◼ ► for days twice like is ice block not potentially a way for somebody like that to be like i'm not
00:33:23 ◼ ► going over there i'm not gonna i'm not gonna be over there where they those guys are because they're
00:33:27 ◼ ► gonna they're gonna put me in jail uh incorrectly again right like there are lots of i would argue
00:33:33 ◼ ► valid uses for this but is that an argument that apple wants to have the answer is certainly not
00:33:39 ◼ ► not but the broader question is where do they draw the line down the road are they going to draw the line
00:33:43 ◼ ► somewhere else so they're never going to draw the line and and and um all we know from this one is
00:33:48 ◼ ► this sure isn't it yeah i mean i i'm not trying i don't i don't i don't think i am like a doomer in
00:33:57 ◼ ► this scenario but like i just think the further we continue i just don't know if they're going to draw
00:34:02 ◼ ► any lines like i don't that's the question i don't know what these lines are going to be like
00:34:13 ◼ ► consumer privacy because i think if there is a line that apple is going to draw that will be it
00:34:22 ◼ ► i think i think that that is the most likely scenario where apple says because i mean all
00:34:29 ◼ ► the u.s government has to do is come and say you know that thing in the uk where they're spying on
00:34:33 ◼ ► their own people or have the ability to just get all the icloud backups and nobody can say say anything
00:34:38 ◼ ► about it we want that too and i'm not saying they'll say no because i i think they're saying
00:34:45 ◼ ► yes in the uk right right so so just because we have not spoken about this question so this was we
00:34:51 ◼ ► spoke about the fact that the i i u.s official i don't remember who was like hey we told that i don't
00:34:57 ◼ ► know if it's pam bondy maybe it was pam bondy okay pam's all over the news uh she is she was like hey
00:35:03 ◼ ► we we stopped apple from doing this they're not going to do this about like um essentially the uk
00:35:08 ◼ ► government having a backdoor into worldwide data now the uk government good news are saying just uk
00:35:14 ◼ ► citizens then yeah and i'm probably gonna do it here's the here's the thing isn't this what they do in
00:35:22 ◼ ► china yeah so apple doesn't have that line no apple has a long-standing policy of doing what the
00:35:30 ◼ ► government asked them to do and that that for all readings of that statement because they're in china
00:35:37 ◼ ► and that's what they do in china yeah apple except except for the dma they don't do that that's what
00:35:43 ◼ ► well they do do it though they don't like it but they're doing it no they don't like it but they do
00:35:47 ◼ ► it they fight it because there's a mechanism to fight it yeah um yeah it's a mess i i know i think i
00:35:52 ◼ ► think this is the question is where where would apple draw a line um where they would put themselves in
00:35:58 ◼ ► an adversarial position with the u.s government and you're right maybe the answer is nowhere maybe
00:36:05 ◼ ► we don't know but again i come back to this wasn't it this sure wasn't it they just were like yep okay
00:36:11 ◼ ► pam you got it it's out of the app store done like i do want to underscore that point that i made because
00:36:16 ◼ ► it was a joke that you made and i kind of said because i've been seeing people say it's like oh they
00:36:20 ◼ ► keep drawing like they're not drawing lines at the dma they are doing that they don't like it they're
00:36:25 ◼ ► dragging their feet but they are going along with what the eu wants by hook or by crook they're at
00:36:31 ◼ ► least they're trying to fight it but they're doing it they are doing it let's demarcate exactly where
00:36:36 ◼ ► apple has drawn the line historically because i think um i think this is the answer which is
00:36:41 ◼ ► apple like apple's solution to the uk was turning off a feature that added more encryption right yeah i think
00:36:51 ◼ ► apple's policy is more refined than one might think because it's not we're not going to we're not going
00:36:58 ◼ ► to break encryption it's we're not going to build you a back door right it's we're not going to build
00:37:05 ◼ ► you a back door we're not going to task our people to decrypt something by finding a bug in our software
00:37:12 ◼ ► we're not going to that was san bernardino right it's like we're not going to build you a back door
00:37:16 ◼ ► we're not going to we're not going to build a system that breaks encryption because once you break
00:37:20 ◼ ► encryption it's broken for everybody however what they haven't said no to is we're going to put it
00:37:27 ◼ ► on a server where you have a key or we're going to turn in this case we're going to turn off the feature
00:37:33 ◼ ► that means we can't decrypt that data so that that data is always encrypted on our or are always
00:37:41 ◼ ► decryptable on our servers or is always decrypted on our servers that's the kind of stuff where they're
00:37:45 ◼ ► comfortable with it and you can go a long way down that path before hitting a hitting a red line right
00:37:54 ◼ ► because you know and i think the government knows that that's the other part of this is come from
00:37:59 ◼ ► the government side like they are also figuring out sort of like what how compliant apple will be
00:38:06 ◼ ► with them and google and i think the san bernardino case is an interesting example because that was them
00:38:13 ◼ ► saying you build us a build us a back door or break into your own systems to take something that was
00:38:19 ◼ ► encrypted that you promised essentially was private and make it not private and that is that is where they've
00:38:26 ◼ ► drawn the line it is in that very particular case of we've got something uh we're not going to break
00:38:32 ◼ ► our own encryption we're not going to break up the privacy of our of our customers but that's not the
00:38:39 ◼ ► same as what they i mean mike they turned off that feature in the uk right yes and the net effect of that
00:38:44 ◼ ► is those backups are no longer unbreakable so what they did in china because i'm googling around now
00:38:53 ◼ ► because i'm trying to work out chinese law was that you had to put the keys the servers on
00:38:58 ◼ ► so basically your servers had to be on servers owned by essentially chinese companies and controlled by
00:39:04 ◼ ► the government which i believe means they've got the keys yes the backups and the keys are both stored
00:39:08 ◼ ► on icloud servers in china now what does that mean in china i don't know enough about encryption to be
00:39:13 ◼ ► able to tell you what that means it it means that in china the chinese government can use the keys to
00:39:18 ◼ ► to decrypt anything that's encrypted on the server right yeah so why would they not just do this in
00:39:24 ◼ ► other countries why wouldn't they do this like if they got asked by the uk if they got asked by the us
00:39:29 ◼ ► why would they not do this so this is the this is the loophole is is that by turning off that advanced
00:39:33 ◼ ► data protection feature it goes back to the way it was adp the whole point of it was we're going to make
00:39:39 ◼ ► it so we can't get at your stuff and and the reaction is you know if you're in a country
00:39:45 ◼ ► that says no we really want access to that the solution is okay we'll turn off adp in your country
00:39:52 ◼ ► and then what they're doing is reverting to where it was which is a less secure less private um more
00:39:59 ◼ ► readable because everything's in that backup and it means functionally what it means is yes you can you can
00:40:04 ◼ ► make an encrypted backup on your mac of your iphone that apple can't get to but nobody's gonna do it
00:40:12 ◼ ► and so effectively it means everybody's got a backup that the government can get to if they want to
00:40:17 ◼ ► and i that seems to be apple's policy right because they did it in the uk which is if you ask
00:40:23 ◼ ► the first thing we do is we'll just turn off adp and then i mean look i'm sure that they're
00:40:29 ◼ ► they're fighting adp and encrypted aircraft backups are different things yeah but doesn't adp adp encrypts
00:40:38 ◼ ► everything because well there's a lot of there's a lot of end-to-end encrypted stuff that apple can't
00:40:43 ◼ ► get to right and that would be a breakage of it i think adp's big thing is that they they there were
00:40:49 ◼ ► places where apple held the key so that they could also decrypt your stuff and adp throws that key
00:40:54 ◼ ► away correct correct and it also means that your messages are encrypted because if you do use
00:41:01 ◼ ► messages in the cloud anybody who uses messages in the cloud your your messages are no longer fully
00:41:09 ◼ ► encrypted even if even though i message is encrypted it is a very strange weird loophole but if you use
00:41:16 ◼ ► messages in the cloud it means that they're available in your icloud backups and that part of your icloud
00:41:20 ◼ ► backup ipas key for in case you lose your password it's a very strange thing about icloud it's like
00:41:26 ◼ ► technically yes icloud is end-to-end encrypted unless you include messages in the cloud which is a backup
00:41:33 ◼ ► of your messages um so it's messy anyway but i just yeah i i just at this point and i'm not like i don't know
00:41:43 ◼ ► i am of the mind i will read something that uh dan wrote on six colors do not expect corporations to
00:41:50 ◼ ► be your proxy in the fight against authoritarianism they are simply put not designed for it they are
00:41:54 ◼ ► machines designed to return profit to shareholders and that means they fundamentally rely on a stability
00:41:59 ◼ ► that you're not going to get from making waves you will always be disappointed so this is like a
00:42:03 ◼ ► a kind of a sentiment that me and you expressed with the the trophy for uh donald trump right that that
00:42:13 ◼ ► tim cook gave it is so like i i think you could maybe listen to me and be like mike's falling down
00:42:18 ◼ ► into a dark hole but no i have i just don't i don't expect them to fight for me or for anyone i just don't
00:42:26 ◼ ► and so i i feel like i don't feel like where the lines are i i think people that believe that there are
00:42:32 ◼ ► lines i'm just not sure that there are anymore the only reason that a giant profit-seeking corporation
00:42:37 ◼ ► would act in what you view as the best interest of the people is if they view them as the best interest
00:42:42 ◼ ► of them that is the alignment that you seek but that is often usually not aligned so like and that's
00:42:49 ◼ ► why i mentioned the red line about privacy because apple has this very you know decade plus long uh
00:43:06 ◼ ► if there's a moment where they look at a policy request from the government and see that it's going
00:43:11 ◼ ► to eviscerate this thing that they've built up and they decide that there's no way for them to do it
00:43:17 ◼ ► that will not harm them materially in terms of their sales or whatever then they might make a change but
00:43:24 ◼ ► essentially it would require that kind of thing in fact i could go the other way and say like the threat of
00:43:31 ◼ ► tariffs is what brought a bunch of apple execs who probably didn't want to go to the white house
00:43:38 ◼ ► or anywhere else but they did it because that was the expedient thing to do because they feared for
00:43:44 ◼ ► that aspect of their business it works that's just how it works and dan dan's absolutely right i mean
00:43:48 ◼ ► corporations are entirely made of people and the people could change their minds but the truth is it's a
00:43:55 ◼ ► system and a culture and and and uh a machine for generating profit and shareholder value and they
00:44:03 ◼ ► you know and and yeah i mean this is the same thing it's like i'm not defending them i'm saying
00:44:10 ◼ ► we shouldn't expect them to take principled stands because in the end um and we should be disappointed when
00:44:19 ◼ ► they don't but we shouldn't be surprised because in the end money talks and that like they're they're
00:44:24 ◼ ► happy to take stands that look great when they're not threatening their core business but if they
00:44:29 ◼ ► threaten their core business they will abandon those stances immediately and we we've seen this against
00:44:35 ◼ ► again and again remember don't be evil that was a great moment in google's history and then it was
00:44:40 ◼ ► like getting in the way and they're like we're not going to do that anymore we're not going to not be
00:44:43 ◼ ► evil not saying we're going to be evil we are we're going to just not say don't be evil anymore
00:44:48 ◼ ► because the follow the money remember open ai which was a non-profit that was going to do everything for
00:44:54 ◼ ► the good of humanity and not uh become a giant tech company guess what they threw that away and are now
00:44:59 ◼ ► a giant tech company who doesn't really care would you like to make videos for no reason yeah would you
00:45:04 ◼ ► like yeah of real people and all like sure why not like they they decided that so so i guess you know
00:45:12 ◼ ► it's not a happy way to end because i think everybody did expect apple to be at least better
00:45:16 ◼ ► than the others on this but i think the truth is that big big tech companies are big tech companies
00:45:20 ◼ ► and even the ones who might be less inclined to do bad things uh there are moments where they're going
00:45:27 ◼ ► to be put what they feel is put in a corner and they're going to do what they want what they feel is
00:45:31 ◼ ► best for their business and that's the bottom line and i'm not happy relaying this but that is where we are
00:45:38 ◼ ► yeah and again i'll say what i've said before because it's my opinion it's my point of view i i
00:45:42 ◼ ► think that there are lots of reasons why because of the way that the world is they do have to do these
00:45:46 ◼ ► things like they're they are trying to you know people say it's all for the shareholders and i
00:45:52 ◼ ► understand that point of view but also as well there are a lot of people that work at apple
00:45:56 ◼ ► and that some sometimes there are decisions that you have to make because what else are you going to
00:46:00 ◼ ► do uh i would like them to be more principled i don't know if i'm going to get it though and so
00:46:07 ◼ ► it's kind of one of those things i'm just going to be i'm just disappointed that they're not in that
00:46:10 ◼ ► spot but i'm also not really expecting anything else from them to be honest i would love
00:46:21 ◼ ► pushes apple so far that apple feels like now is the moment where we have to stand up to the bully
00:46:30 ◼ ► because we cannot go further i'm not sure that will happen well we're only a year we're not even
00:46:35 ◼ ► a year in yet i'm also not sure i'm also not sure if they will force it yeah i always think about this
00:46:46 ◼ ► when i'm watching uh sports i was watching football over the weekend and you always have
00:46:52 ◼ ► that moment in in a sporting event or and the baseball playoffs too and like if you're rooting for
00:46:58 ◼ ► one team and then there's like a moment of decision and there's a decision and it's like should
00:47:03 ◼ ► they go forward on fourth down or should they should they intentionally walk this guy or whatever
00:47:07 ◼ ► it is and if you're if you're pulling for the other team what's your opinion what which one of these
00:47:13 ◼ ► decisions would make you happier they should do the other one right because you're pulling for this team
00:47:18 ◼ ► so it's like should they go for it or should they kick in football i'm like oh well i think they should
00:47:24 ◼ ► totally kick here well that means they should go for it that means they should go for it because
00:47:28 ◼ ► it means you're afraid that they're going to go for it and make it and it's going to be bad for your
00:47:31 ◼ ► team and you think and and i say this because that's an internal calibration that happens and
00:47:38 ◼ ► i do i'm not sure the trump administration is capable of this but there are people there who
00:47:43 ◼ ► probably have an idea of what buttons to push more readily at apple and what buttons to not push more
00:47:49 ◼ ► readily at apple now i don't think the president is one of those people and i think that the most likely
00:47:53 ◼ ► scenario here is he decides to push a button then everybody else is like oh they're not gonna are they
00:47:57 ◼ ► how they're gonna respond and then we'll see what they do you're right there there are more years of
00:48:02 ◼ ► this to come uh i don't i don't know i would love to see it though because here here i'm gonna end on a
00:48:08 ◼ ► slightly more positive note going back to the disney thing i think a year almost a year in it's not even
00:48:15 ◼ ► close to a year in nine months in i think there are a lot of companies that were thinking trump first
00:48:23 ◼ ► term playbook and we're doing some new president go along to get along yeah and i think we are reaching
00:48:30 ◼ ► a point now i would like to think we are reaching a point now where those companies are realizing that
00:48:37 ◼ ► go along to get along doesn't really work it's always going to be what have you done for me
00:48:42 ◼ ► lately he has a new book like he has a new playbook and in the end if there is and there's a lot of
00:48:50 ◼ ► cowardice out there but in the end i wonder if that with things like the kimmel thing and the overreach of
00:48:56 ◼ ► the fcc chair and even people like ted cruise saying that guy went too far if you end up at a
00:49:03 ◼ ► point where more companies say no to the bully say we're not going to do that you're going to have to
00:49:12 ◼ ► make me and the more that do that the more might do that i i i mean i guess it comes down to that saying
00:49:23 ◼ ► which is they're not as powerful as they think they are and and you need to not give you need to
00:49:28 ◼ ► not grant them the power that they think they have because that's how they get that power is that it's
00:49:34 ◼ ► just granted by people who say well you know what are we going to do to stop it and the answer is
00:49:40 ◼ ► don't grant them that power they shrink back when challenged like a bully and yeah they might punch
00:49:48 ◼ ► in the face they have ways to make it hurt but like in the end is there an alternative it's that
00:49:54 ◼ ► it's that classic like if i say yes does it stop no it doesn't stop it keeps happening well then say no
00:50:00 ◼ ► and so my hope is that maybe we'll see more of that however the evidence for that is thin on the ground so
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00:52:16 ◼ ► membership and thanks to fitbod for their continued support of this show and relay i want to talk about
00:52:23 ◼ ► what is going on with the apple vision pro we will turn to friend of the show the sheriff mark german who
00:52:32 ◼ ► reports at bloomberg that apple has paused their plans to create a cheaper and lighter version of
00:52:39 ◼ ► the vision pro this product was being developed for a potential 2027 release mark says that this
00:52:46 ◼ ► project replaced the idea of doing a stripped down kind of vision air model so i want to catch everybody
00:52:53 ◼ ► up here because i had to spend a little bit of time over the last couple of days reminding myself with
00:52:57 ◼ ► the various twists and turns of the vision pro's development so basically we had the vision pro and
00:53:04 ◼ ► then people were like surely there'll be a lighter one it will be cheaper so apple started working on
00:53:08 ◼ ► that and then we're like no we're not going to do that what we're going to do instead is make a cheaper
00:53:14 ◼ ► lighter version of the vision pro new materials kind of refresh design both of these have now been
00:53:21 ◼ ► shelved so vision pro is not canceled in fact mark in his newsletter this weekend kind of iterated that
00:53:28 ◼ ► because some people have taken this report from him to be like apple has abandoned the vision pro
00:53:32 ◼ ► that is not the case there is currently just no active work on a significant revision all that
00:53:39 ◼ ► there is in the works right now is a quote modest refer refresh of the current vision pro design
00:53:46 ◼ ► of a faster chip that is expected for as early as the end of this year yeah that's the m5 vision pro
00:53:53 ◼ ► yeah probably that will essentially be what we have right now in the hardware and there will be an m5
00:53:59 ◼ ► and there is currently no development of anything more radical than that so right no ongoing
00:54:06 ◼ ► development because the team that was working on something to come out in a couple of years has been
00:54:10 ◼ ► taken off of that to work on a different project yes which we'll get to in a second mac rumors is
00:54:16 ◼ ► reporting as well that they have found referenced in code to a quote jewel knit band for the vision pro
00:54:22 ◼ ► a text description of the jaw knit band suggests that there will be an upper band that spans the top
00:54:27 ◼ ► of the head and another band that fits behind the head so this is something we had heard about before
00:54:32 ◼ ► exactly what we got in the demos we got the demos in something like this and then they didn't ship it
00:54:38 ◼ ► the connected tipster i'll refer to him who goes by the name not mark german who has had a pretty
00:54:43 ◼ ► good track record wrote in about this a little while ago and said it is not that exact one but it is
00:54:49 ◼ ► similar in kind of idea right of course uh because i kept saying it was the exact one and they wanted to
00:54:54 ◼ ► correct me on that yeah i've i've been using the belkin yeah dual band yeah and it's great it's i find it
00:55:01 ◼ ► funny you know a lot of the the conversation about the vision pro is about the comfort and i'll grant you
00:55:08 ◼ ► you know after a while it feels you know it feels heavier and when you take it off it feels like
00:55:13 ◼ ► your face has been mashed against something because it has i have so few problems with it
00:55:19 ◼ ► using the belkin band the belkin band which is which is a dual which is a dual adjustable band that
00:55:24 ◼ ► fits over the top of your head and the back of your head and i use that all the time now and it and it's
00:55:30 ◼ ► great so if they're going to do something and that clearly designed by apple right so if they're going to do
00:55:35 ◼ ► something kind of like that for the the new vision pro that's a positive i agree but yeah so okay we're
00:55:41 ◼ ► going to talk about this in a minute i i want to before we talk about this product and how i feel
00:55:45 ◼ ► about this decision on their part i want to say i i wrote actually last week i wrote my vision os 26 review
00:55:53 ◼ ► um the point of vision os which it actually is really good vision os is really good the issue is
00:56:03 ◼ ► not the operating system they've made an os that's um kind of ipad like with more even more mac flavor
00:56:09 ◼ ► than the ipad although now with ipad os 26 they're more similar um it's got a lot of great stuff in it some
00:56:16 ◼ ► of the features that started out bad have improved so much the the trajectory they they're doing what they
00:56:21 ◼ ► should with vision os which is a product for the future not the present is to push it forward keep
00:56:27 ◼ ► pushing it forward when it stops moving forward then they're in trouble because the whole idea
00:56:32 ◼ ► here is to have a a vision oriented gesture oriented operating system ready for the time when the hardware
00:56:40 ◼ ► is light enough that people are wearing these more whether it's for vr or ar that's the idea here is
00:56:45 ◼ ► that they'll have a whole stack that will be ready for that moment so if we take vision pro to be
00:56:51 ◼ ► essentially you know test hardware that fakes it's not it's not it's not ar it's it's an ar simulator
00:57:02 ◼ ► right it's an ar simulator they've got all those images there because they know that ar is the where
00:57:06 ◼ ► they want to go with this so they've got all these cameras on it because they want to simulate ar but they
00:57:11 ◼ ► can't right now the hardware just isn't there to do what they want to do so they're really like in 10
00:57:15 ◼ ► years what is this going to look like in glasses and that's what the vision pro is it's a a simulator of
00:57:20 ◼ ► that i think it's both because even in a world of ar there's still things in ar with an ar product you
00:57:26 ◼ ► cannot do that you can do with a vr product sure but when i say it's an ar simulator i mean it yes it's
00:57:31 ◼ ► also a vr device yeah it is a vr device it is that but it's that now it's heavy but it's like it's
00:57:37 ◼ ► already that yeah but the ar part of it is i mean apple is not thinking that big heavy thing on your
00:57:43 ◼ ► face is the future they're thinking that uh it's all going to be lighter so they're they're my point is
00:57:49 ◼ ► they're striving forward and i think that's a good sign i think the hardware in this path is years down
00:57:56 ◼ ► the road before it will be something that would be broadly appealing i would love to see it get
00:58:00 ◼ ► better and lighter and cheaper in the next few years but it does feel like that's way out and
00:58:06 ◼ ► i'm less concerned about hardware development right now i think in the long run and we're going to get
00:58:11 ◼ ► to this in a second i think in the long run apple does need to be working hard on hardware development
00:58:15 ◼ ► to get to the end point whatever direction they go they need to get to the end point of having
00:58:22 ◼ ► something relatively light that you can wear on your face that is augmented reality and and and
00:58:27 ◼ ► that's where they need to be going and those hardware people are still doing that they're doing it on a
00:58:31 ◼ ► different product and we'll talk about it in a second on the os side i do think they need to keep
00:58:36 ◼ ► striving forward because i think in the end what we see what we see in vision pro today is not that far
00:58:44 ◼ ► off from what the ideal would be if the that magic set of ar glasses appeared today they could run
00:58:52 ◼ ► vision os on it and it would be pretty great but it's a decade away right so so as long as i just want
00:58:58 ◼ ► vision os to keep progressing because i think it's actually really good it's it the every other apple
00:59:04 ◼ ► product we could argue the hardware is ahead of the operating system vision pro the os is so far ahead
00:59:10 ◼ ► of the hardware yeah this is the far ahead of the hardware this is the problem so like it's good
00:59:14 ◼ ► david in the discord is is is kind of like saying like oh they will drop the vr stuff no but i think
00:59:20 ◼ ► that is a fundamental misunderstanding of what a vision os is as a product because vision os would
00:59:26 ◼ ► not today vision os what are we 26 would not be able to run on hardware for like 10 years right like
00:59:33 ◼ ► the complexity of that system the amount of power that it needs and all of the sensors to
00:59:40 ◼ ► work on ar glasses is like 10 years back on your face so yeah you can't say that like oh like they're
00:59:46 ◼ ► just they'll get rid of the vr part whenever no because vision os will always be significantly ahead
00:59:52 ◼ ► of what an ar product could do just because of the form right because it's because it's approaching it
00:59:57 ◼ ► from the other direction right you'll always be able to do more with something more either apple stops
01:00:03 ◼ ► work on vision os and they put it on ice for a significant portion of time or they end up with both
01:00:09 ◼ ► products which is where i think they're going where vision os will will have a version that runs on the
01:00:17 ◼ ► vision pro and then also on the i guess the vision probably now could just be ar glasses right like
01:00:24 ◼ ► and and that's that or vision air would be ar glasses the and and without getting ahead of ourselves
01:00:30 ◼ ► here because we're about to get into it i would say we don't what you're talking about is details
01:00:36 ◼ ► like we don't know where the convergence happens or what i think i would say that apple's ideal is that
01:00:43 ◼ ► there are glasses that you can wear that you can use in ar mode or vr mode and and and and it does
01:00:52 ◼ ► everything you want i think what you're saying is practically speaking converging those two products will be
01:00:58 ◼ ► very hard like converging a laptop with a desktop i don't think it's not that it can't happen you can't
01:01:04 ◼ ► but i think it would be very hard you can't do vr on a pair of eyeglasses i mean maybe maybe i'm just
01:01:10 ◼ ► i'm just gonna say i'm open to it but i would also say whatever whatever they learn about this is the ar
01:01:16 ◼ ► part of vision pro it's their playground for what ar behavior should be in an operating system yeah and
01:01:22 ◼ ► i have to believe that in the long run the investment they make in vision os is going to
01:01:29 ◼ ► mean that the software they run on ar glasses they make down the road is going to be better because
01:01:36 ◼ ► they made this investment and they've learned a lot of lessons about how it works yes we will see because
01:01:41 ◼ ► i think in the short run they're not going to use anything like vision os i think they're going to be
01:01:45 ◼ ► doing things like projecting widgets onto some glasses from your phone yeah but in the long run it
01:01:50 ◼ ► they need to be smarter than that yeah like vision os has in it a selection of elements that would be
01:01:57 ◼ ► good in an ar product that anybody that has used vision os would know that that interface always in
01:02:05 ◼ ► your vision is way too much it's an entire operating system it's like imagine running mac os on your apple
01:02:13 ◼ ► watch that's essentially what we're talking about right right i'd say that i'd say that the the
01:02:18 ◼ ► long-term ideal is that when you're walking around you are in you know a focus mode essentially and
01:02:24 ◼ ► you're just seeing the world but then you could also sit down with that same device and use it as
01:02:27 ◼ ► your computer but again that may not be possible or it may not be possible for a long time
01:02:32 ◼ ► maybe this is just my kind of concern about this type of product is that i i absolutely do not want
01:02:40 ◼ ► a vision pro like experience available to me everywhere always 24 7 oh i agree it's too much
01:02:46 ◼ ► it's way way way too much like i don't want notifications in my eyeglasses yeah all right i i think
01:02:54 ◼ ► you're getting hung up on a little bit because in the end they there will be different if they can
01:02:59 ◼ ► even if it's not full vr there are going to be different levels of um presentation in an ar product
01:03:08 ◼ ► and i would imagine you will be able to set what those levels are like we can now with things like
01:03:12 ◼ ► focus modes and preferences right to like what do you want to see and what do you not want to see
01:03:16 ◼ ► um because like apple watch is a great example some people want all their notifications on
01:03:21 ◼ ► their apple watch and other people don't yeah and there's a setting for that okay let's talk about
01:03:26 ◼ ► this what what those hardware developers are actually working on yeah so apple are moving the team that
01:03:31 ◼ ► was working on the vision pro over to a smart glasses project as this has become a bigger priority for
01:03:37 ◼ ► apple uh because they want to be able to push forward more quickly on a project like that so as a
01:03:43 ◼ ► reminder apple is working on two products in the smart glass world a vision that is folk of sorry a
01:03:49 ◼ ► version of vision if that is focused around audio cameras and siri set for 2027 uh mark german also
01:03:57 ◼ ► says there there there will be some kind of health focus there okay that's air pods basically yeah it'd be
01:04:04 ◼ ► interesting to see i don't know what what health sensors could could you work from like being on my nose and
01:04:10 ◼ ► temples i mean i i have no idea right but i also i also wouldn't have imagined you could take my heart rate from my ears but you can
01:04:18 ◼ ► that apparently um it's then also a pair of glasses that includes a display of some kind targeting for
01:04:26 ◼ ► 2028 however it seems apple is trying to beat their initial time frames now and are doing this with a
01:04:33 ◼ ► shift of resources remember we we talked we talked about this like more than a year ago yeah because i know i
01:04:40 ◼ ► i said i said i feel like it was spring of last year i said or maybe it was just this year i i basically said
01:04:46 ◼ ► at one point if i am a manager at apple i'm gonna throw as many people as i can to ship uh you know
01:04:53 ◼ ► meta ray-ban style airpod glasses asap yeah because it was it was very clear and and then we you know maybe
01:05:02 ◼ ► they were doing that then but we had to wait till now for for a lot of this from from mark german no
01:05:08 ◼ ► it was probably a year ago because i mean the meta orion was a year ago right so they did investigate
01:05:15 ◼ ► this and i think that their investigations have led to the go ahead to pull people off of that vision pro
01:05:20 ◼ ► team and build this product too which you know i think so i think the vision pro is a cool product
01:05:29 ◼ ► although i think nobody should buy it because it's too expensive and it's too early i think vision os is
01:05:32 ◼ ► actually a good operating system that apple's done some really great work with yep and so i had this
01:05:38 ◼ ► feeling like people expect me to say oh no i'm worried about the vision pro this is absolutely the
01:05:44 ◼ ► right thing for them to do because first off meta is doing this and second i think you do need to
01:05:52 ◼ ► approach this from bottom up and top down i think that if all you ever do is say we're going to make
01:05:57 ◼ ► a big vision pro smaller and smaller and lighter and lighter you are missing out on all it's like saying
01:06:04 ◼ ► i'm not going to make the original mac i'm just going to keep it in the lab and it'll come out in five
01:06:09 ◼ ► years it's like the products from the coming from the bottom up are happening now they get people used to
01:06:14 ◼ ► the idea of having connected devices that are glasses you should be there because that is even
01:06:21 ◼ ► if you and i disagree a little bit on whether they meet in the middle or not they get close to each
01:06:26 ◼ ► other in the middle because the glasses become more functional and the vr stuff becomes lighter and
01:06:31 ◼ ► lighter and lighter those two things have to happen and apple has been approaching this only from top down
01:06:38 ◼ ► and they need to go bottom up they they absolutely 100 need to they are behind meta here and just as my
01:06:43 ◼ ► i argue you got to ship vision pro because you got to learn how that product works and and progress
01:06:49 ◼ ► it toward where you want to go shipping glasses is important because it makes you go through the
01:06:57 ◼ ► crucible of miniaturizing and of what do you need to learn to get things on those glasses and to get it to
01:07:05 ◼ ► talk to your iphone and to get the battery life to be decent and and to deal with uh sensors that can
01:07:12 ◼ ► fit on those things and input via something like an apple watch because meta's got that wristband that
01:07:17 ◼ ► they're doing like all of that those are all lessons that are required to get to your destination and i don't
01:07:25 ◼ ► think that uh vision pro is the platform to learn some of those lessons so i think this is actually kind of
01:07:31 ◼ ► i mean it's it's it's overdue news for apple that they should be working on this and retasking
01:07:37 ◼ ► vision pro people i don't love it i mean i kind of wish they were doing both full speed but um yeah in
01:07:42 ◼ ► this instance if you could only pick one going bottom up and building uh first those glasses and then the
01:07:49 ◼ ► other you know first the ones that are basically air pods and then one that's more like what meta has
01:07:53 ◼ ► shown which is kind of like a basic display which like i said earlier i feel like fits into again a lot of
01:07:58 ◼ ► tech that apple already has it's probably things like widgets it's probably similar to that um home
01:08:05 ◼ ► device that they haven't shipped yet because their siri ai stuff is a disaster but if they can fix that
01:08:11 ◼ ► part of it um they've got the i feel like they've got a lot of the hardware pieces to make this happen
01:08:16 ◼ ► and they need to because this is another area for them to learn and to get the public ready to accept
01:08:22 ◼ ► this is a beachhead right to get to accept smart glasses because it's going to take people i think
01:08:28 ◼ ► it's going to be a harder fight than the watch because the glasses are so personal i think it's
01:08:34 ◼ ► going to be hard so i think they need to start working on it and and they let meta get ahead of them
01:08:37 ◼ ► meta are way ahead too which is yeah that's that's the embarrassing part right like let's just say that
01:08:44 ◼ ► that they got to this timeline that mark's suggesting 2027 for a product meta shipped like
01:08:52 ◼ ► two years ago yeah that's not great that's why i said they had to pull forward the thing that kills
01:08:58 ◼ ► me here mike is that they have all the pieces yeah they have all this tech they've had all this tech
01:09:04 ◼ ► they decided that this was not a product that was worth building and it was beneath them or something
01:09:10 ◼ ► or that it was a novelty this is this is one of those things they spent all that money on the car
01:09:14 ◼ ► and yet they poo-pooed at uh ai chatbots and they poo-pooed uh these these wearable glasses they're
01:09:23 ◼ ► like no no no we'll come from the top down and like they made a mistake but you then you need to react and
01:09:28 ◼ ► maybe they are finally reacting here but you're right it feels really late and the frustration is other than an
01:09:34 ◼ ► intelligent siri which hasn't stopped them from shipping airpods they have on the hardware side
01:09:41 ◼ ► i have 100 confidence that apple can make these products in because most of these features already
01:09:50 ◼ ► exist in apple products but they just chose not to try for a long time and so they're behind i think
01:09:59 ◼ ► they can catch up but like they gotta they gotta scramble which is probably why they're pulling
01:10:03 ◼ ► people off of other projects to do it because they just uh they they just let it sit there it is
01:10:09 ◼ ► supremely strange to think that like they wanted to make air glasses so they started with a vr headset
01:10:18 ◼ ► and didn't do anything else well they were i think the story has been partially told but the idea there is
01:10:27 ◼ ► that people including johnny i very strongly felt like a that that ar was the future i think tim cook
01:10:34 ◼ ► still has internalized a lot of that but they obviously went through a bunch of tests and decided
01:10:39 ◼ ► that they and here's my theory based on some of this stuff that that has been reported is they decided
01:10:46 ◼ ► that they couldn't do it then to do pure ar they looked at what they could do with ar and it was again it
01:10:52 ◼ ► was meta ray bands or something like that it was a very it was it was nothing they had this vision of
01:10:58 ◼ ► the future that was going to be amazing and and at some point they won the argument of well let's just
01:11:04 ◼ ► build a big heavy thing so that we have a platform for our operating system and we'll then we'll just kind
01:11:09 ◼ ► of keep trying to make it lighter and and again i don't think that's a mistake i think the mistake is saying
01:11:16 ◼ ► why don't we also use all of the skill we have in building airpods and apple watch and build an
01:11:24 ◼ ► accessory from the bottom up i do wonder if the existence of airpods led them astray where they
01:11:30 ◼ ► thought airpods are really successful doesn't this just repeat airpods we've heard mark german's
01:11:34 ◼ ► reports that they've been trying to put cameras on airpods which sounds to me very much like what if
01:11:38 ◼ ► they're not glasses what if they're airpods and uh and that put them i think i think it's a confluence of
01:11:45 ◼ ► those things that put them behind yeah and i by the way i am not a believer i know we've talked
01:11:50 ◼ ► about it before but i'm not a believer in cameras on on airpods because i don't believe that they can
01:11:57 ◼ ► see what you need them to see and i don't believe that they don't have huge um mismatches with people's
01:12:03 ◼ ► like ears and hair in a way that you can i mean what are they going to stick out like antenna out out of
01:12:10 ◼ ► your ear like it's just nobody would wear that and i think close into the ears it's not going to
01:12:14 ◼ ► work i i you know i i prepare to be proven wrong but i think like glasses is the platform that you
01:12:19 ◼ ► have to use here yeah if they are cameras to take pictures right because there have been varying
01:12:23 ◼ ► reports about what these cameras are for right whether it's like infrared gestures or actual
01:12:29 ◼ ► camera cameras if it's cameras to take pictures putting them on glasses is a vastly superior product
01:12:35 ◼ ► than cameras on on airpods if it's cameras to augment your view if it's cameras to have your ai model look
01:12:42 ◼ ► out and see what's going on around you having them facing forward where your eyes are is probably
01:12:46 ◼ ► important and people wear hair over their ears and if your hair's over your ears you can't like you
01:12:52 ◼ ► can't it's just not it's might be a solution like i could see cameras on airpods helping you with like
01:13:00 ◼ ► precision location and things like that but like it is not the solution the only solution offered by apple
01:13:07 ◼ ► it can't be there is nothing that cameras on airpods could do that it wouldn't be better to put when if
01:13:12 ◼ ► you just put them on glasses like it would always be better to put them on other than see behind you
01:13:18 ◼ ► i guess but even then you could really in the long run you put cameras on the end of the yeah if i don't
01:13:23 ◼ ► know why you would need that but if you needed that yes you could also put them behind you in case your
01:13:27 ◼ ► enemies are coming up behind you i don't know what i guess it's like when i was a kid and you'd have
01:13:31 ◼ ► those like spy glasses that just have mirrors in them it's like those apple wants to build spy airpods
01:13:36 ◼ ► yeah head on a swivel good idea mark german talks about how the upgraded siri will also be a crucial
01:13:41 ◼ ► part of this product and my word if this ends up being blocked because that siri doesn't ship like
01:13:47 ◼ ► the home part of a screen like i mean i get it that like if you're doing this it would be important but
01:13:54 ◼ ► please don't let it be like integral to the product because jason i really i just don't think
01:14:01 ◼ ► they're shipping it like i don't think it's that it has to be i mean they they they have to get this
01:14:06 ◼ ► right uh because everything they're lining up requires it so they have to get it right here's
01:14:13 ◼ ► what i say is like yes it should be crucial if you've shipped it right like yeah don't right build this
01:14:22 ◼ ► product relying on that to exist on any particular time frame yeah i i think i think that's right i
01:14:30 ◼ ► mean i think that this is all about what their vision for the product is i and you know airpods
01:14:34 ◼ ► ship now our airpods pro 3 didn't ship didn't didn't wait because the new siri wasn't out they
01:14:41 ◼ ► shipped and they used the old siri and then when the new siri comes they'll use the new siri that's
01:14:44 ◼ ► what's going to happen with this stuff it's the same thing they'll use whatever siri is there
01:14:49 ◼ ► but their their vision for it is like that well by 2027 we certainly will have a good siri they
01:14:54 ◼ ► better i mean that that's a larger issue they sure better i could imagine the display version of
01:15:02 ◼ ► this product needing app intents right that like maybe that is what would power the ui that would exist
01:15:10 ◼ ► in that screen right of like a really light ui kind of thing that is app intent powered i could see
01:15:18 ◼ ► that but yeah either way like don't don't be like we'll ship it after the upgrade to siri like because
01:15:28 ◼ ► history has proven that that is not a project that appears to be going super swimmingly well let me tell
01:15:37 ◼ ► you if they if they can't make that work they're in deep oh i know i i agree with you they have to
01:15:42 ◼ ► make it work but i just think tying anything more to the success of that product is probably a bad idea
01:15:50 ◼ ► i agree in a sense that like i said airpods ship with bad siri and so you just you just use it and
01:15:59 ◼ ► it's going to be what it's going to be regardless um but also like they gotta they gotta ship it and
01:16:05 ◼ ► that's got to be like they gotta ship it they gotta ship it that's so i think if you're if you're
01:16:11 ◼ ► building this product you really need to be focused on just tying in with whatever siri is provided to
01:16:16 ◼ ► you on the phone yeah that you're paired with i sure what a wild time we're in like it is
01:16:24 ◼ ► truly bananas to me that we're in a world where there is a product category that of hardware that meta is
01:16:32 ◼ ► leading yeah okay so i'll give i want to give my very small um anti-meta case please do
01:16:43 ◼ ► which is first off i don't like them i don't like them as a company taste closed they're bad
01:16:49 ◼ ► your honor i rest my case they suck i don't like it boo you i don't like them i don't like them there
01:16:57 ◼ ► are some reasons why i don't like them yeah and i have i have a meta quest it's fine it's not as good
01:17:03 ◼ ► as the vision pro but it also costs a fraction of it and it has controllers hey remember those sony
01:17:07 ◼ ► controllers that are coming to the vision pro i haven't seen those um meta okay this is this is my
01:17:14 ◼ ► little mini version of my thing about meta which is corporate culture and identity are extremely hard
01:17:25 ◼ ► hard to change and while meta has put a lot of effort into its hardware including the ray-bans
01:17:44 ◼ ► is what it is which is a company that makes money on ads and by knowing who you are and not only does
01:17:53 ◼ ► that i think make over the long run i think make a bunch of people more reluctant about their relationship
01:18:00 ◼ ► with meta but i think at a purely cultural level meta is not a product company or if they are the product
01:18:10 ◼ ► is the ads that are served personalized to people and this is i'm not trying to say i'm not this is
01:18:17 ◼ ► not a hot take where i'm like this is why meta is doomed to fail with this stuff because they're ahead
01:18:21 ◼ ► they are totally ahead what i will say is i've seen meta get derailed before mark zuckerberg is great
01:18:28 ◼ ► at derailing yep he has a short attention span and the power to do whatever he wants and he can do
01:18:34 ◼ ► whatever he wants and that company's culture is not about making great products it's about selling ads
01:18:44 ◼ ► to you as personalized as possible and you see it again and again in facebook in instagram it's it's not
01:18:53 ◼ ► their core and can they change maybe but what i would say is the reason even though apple is behind
01:19:02 ◼ ► that i don't believe that like meta it has an irretrievable lead here part of that is that
01:19:10 ◼ ► apple has most of the tech that's in those products they just have chosen not to make them and i think
01:19:14 ◼ ► that was a mistake it's that this is what apple's good at and it's not what that is good at and maybe
01:19:22 ◼ ► meta will get better at it but again again i'm i'm saying having a hardware project inside meta is nice and
01:19:30 ◼ ► they've done a good job but it's not at its core what meta is and so i'm going to remain skeptical
01:19:39 ◼ ► that meta suddenly has become an apple level product company in the glasses space because i don't believe
01:19:50 ◼ ► it i will say i'm not saying that i just want to say that i don't think you're saying i'm saying that but
01:19:55 ◼ ► i'm just saying just because i made a point i am not saying that they're apple no no i'm just saying
01:20:00 ◼ ► they released a product and eviterated on it and they are very ahead they're they're ahead um i i'm not
01:20:07 ◼ ► i'm not debating you i'm just saying i'm not a i'm not a believer in meta as a company because i just don't
01:20:15 ◼ ► think this is who they are and i and i know from personal experience that it's so hard to change
01:20:24 ◼ ► the culture of a company from what it what it believes itself to be and i think that google
01:20:30 ◼ ► has struggled with it and i think meta struggles with it i think apple in many ways the reason apple's
01:20:39 ◼ ► behind here is because apple like has its own separate issues because apple could the products
01:20:45 ◼ ► that meta is shipping are products apple could have shipped several years ago they chose not to
01:20:51 ◼ ► and we say that's a mistake can they catch up i think they can i the the the real thing holding apple back
01:20:59 ◼ ► is that is that i think they've they don't get ai culturally um but anyway so that that's my
01:21:08 ◼ ► that's my i don't like meta personally and and that probably colors my judgment a little bit i cannot
01:21:14 ◼ ► envision whenever i hear them extolling the virtues of these glasses which look really interesting and
01:21:19 ◼ ► they're like connect them to our array of services like whatsapp and instagram and i'm like right meta
01:21:26 ◼ ► like i just i don't like them i think they're gross i think their products are bad uh even their
01:21:31 ◼ ► good products get worse all the time because they can't help themselves and i guess that's what i'm
01:21:35 ◼ ► saying about this is i think this product that they've got is really interesting but i think that there
01:21:39 ◼ ► is plenty of room for other companies that are good at hardware samsung is good at hardware too
01:21:44 ◼ ► culturally they their culture is super weird but they're really good at hardware i i think there's room
01:21:50 ◼ ► to be skeptical of meta because even though they got a head start and they are a tech giant i don't
01:21:54 ◼ ► think this is what they're good at so other companies that are good at this should be able
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01:23:47 ◼ ► and wrote in and says i'm a little behind on my podcasts and i've just listened to last week's episode
01:23:54 ◼ ► of connected please can i recommend that jason finds a way for mike to attend laser sounds university
01:24:00 ◼ ► in the way that jason had to attend coin flip university mike i love everything you do but
01:24:06 ◼ ► they were terrible lasers although not as bad as jason's original coin flipping okay i'm bad at laser sounds
01:25:22 ◼ ► Brent says, I've been to Disney World, including Galaxy's Edge, before, but I'm going to be
01:25:31 ◼ ► Is there anything specifically there or at Disneyland in general that I should be looking forward
01:25:37 ◼ ► You know, I read these business articles about Disney and about how their parks chief is like
01:26:28 ◼ ► The idea that you're walking around inside a world, like you go to Star Wars and you're
01:26:41 ◼ ► I mean, there is like the, there's the Spider-Man thing, which don't, Mike's got notes here that
01:27:10 ◼ ► The best time I had in, in Avengers campus is there's the, the Pym test kitchen where I
01:27:34 ◼ ► It was, or maybe it was a mid afternoon snack, but you know, you, you got to sit down, take,
01:27:55 ◼ ► Um, and there'll be characters running around and there's like a, uh, uh, iron man, like
01:28:12 ◼ ► I thought that the, I think the Radiator Springs ride, the whole Cars Land is actually pretty
01:28:20 ◼ ► Especially when like the 60%, 70% life-sized Lightning McQueen starts driving around in the
01:28:32 ◼ ► And, and, uh, my pro tip for you is, uh, even if you're with other people do the singles
01:28:43 ◼ ► And then after, it doesn't matter if you're with them during, and the singles line moves
01:29:06 ◼ ► What I'll say about Avengers campus, if you are a big Marvel fan, like I am just walking
01:29:17 ◼ ► It's just, it's just when I left, I was like, yeah, there was a, is that all there is feeling?
01:29:26 ◼ ► And, and what they're starting to do with Avengers campus, what they have actually done with
01:29:31 ◼ ► the Avengers campuses is what they should have done with the Galaxy's Edges is that in different
01:29:45 ◼ ► But then for Disney, that's a problem because it means that people don't feel like they need
01:29:54 ◼ ► Like the Paris Avengers campus has, it's called Avengers Flight Force, which is a ride I did
01:30:03 ◼ ► It is very, very fast and like quite an aggressive ride, but it was, I would do it again, but I
01:30:11 ◼ ► What I'll say, like the Avengers campus, it has like the Spider-Man thing is also, the Spider-Man
01:30:23 ◼ ► Oh man, that is, that is the, they have a, they have an animatronic Spider-Man who leaps
01:30:56 ◼ ► Um, the, one of my favorite rides is kind of, it feels like it's kind of co-opted a little
01:31:02 ◼ ► bit by Avengers Campus, which is Guardians Mission Breakout, which was like, it's Tower of Terror,
01:31:15 ◼ ► Um, what, and I would give just a couple of other recommendations for just for Disneyland
01:31:38 ◼ ► Uh, uh, Big Thunder is actually my favorite roller coaster there, but Space Mountain is
01:32:00 ◼ ► Eric writes in and says, what lesson, if any, do you think Apple will learn with the first
01:32:08 ◼ ► If, if the orange sells well, they will do a good color every year along with boring colors.
01:32:17 ◼ ► I don't think it'll be like, oh, we should do lots of colors and give people lots of choices.
01:32:28 ◼ ► Even if that's all I get, like, I'm going to be really sad to lose the orange next year.
01:32:42 ◼ ► Martin says in the September Apple event, Apple used the terms, Apple intelligence and machine
01:32:57 ◼ ► So I think they rolled all their machine learning into Apple intelligence and AI last year because
01:33:11 ◼ ► And they're going back to machine learning because it's a different term and they think
01:33:17 ◼ ► I think right now, Apple intelligence is a very specific set of features that are generative
01:33:24 ◼ ► And they have walled those off and they're no longer doing like, I'll tell you, I bet that
01:33:32 ◼ ► cleanup feature in photos was forced into the Apple intelligence bucket because they wanted
01:33:40 ◼ ► And I bet if, if that happened again, now they would have just called that a machine learning
01:33:48 ◼ ► Because now, you know, they were all in on Apple intelligence and trying to tell you that
01:33:53 ◼ ► And so everything went in that bucket and now it's become a little bit of a, they're ashamed
01:33:59 ◼ ► of it a little bit and they're like not talking about it as much with other features that are
01:34:08 ◼ ► But I think Apple intelligence is a particular set of features that are based on their foundation
01:34:13 ◼ ► If you would like to send in a question for us to answer on a future episode of the show,
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