ATP

00:00:00 ◼   ► John, something occurred to me, I was listening to directives earlier today, and it was very funny to me that you two talked about Das Boot, because there is a forthcoming and comparable episode that I was on where we talked about it. I also had never seen Das Boot before.

00:00:15 ◼   ► But it occurred to me as you were talking about this and talking about your graduation results, that you two are going to be empty nesters real freaking soon, which I think I knew, but I never really thought about it. You are almost there. And how are we feeling about that?

00:00:30 ◼   ► Does it count as empty nester if your kids are still living at home, they're just at school? I thought it was like when they move out.

00:00:36 ◼   ► And I think strictly you are correct. I think it's only when they move out permanently that you are officially an empty nester, but you're an effective empty nester in a couple of months, and that's wild. How are we feeling?

00:00:45 ◼   ► I don't know. I feel like I just haven't looked that far yet, still trying to always get over the next hurdle, and it's just like getting the kids off to school, getting my daughter settled in her first college dorm, getting my son off for his senior year, figuring out what he's going to do.

00:01:01 ◼   ► Like, it just feels like there's still a lot of stuff to overcome. But once they're settled in, and I've stopped doing the 15 trips back and forth to ferry all the things they inevitably forgot, I don't know, maybe ask me then.

00:01:12 ◼   ► And see what it's like. But mostly, I think it'll be good for everybody involved, and it'll be a fun change. But we'll see how it goes. Maybe I'll just be bored.

00:01:21 ◼   ► Let's do some follow-up. Tahoe is apparently dropping Firewire support, and we should pour one out. Did we talk about this already?

00:01:30 ◼   ► We did. We sure did. Wow, I jogged your memory. I was waiting for the little gears to kick in.

00:01:34 ◼   ► It was like three days ago.

00:01:35 ◼   ► It was so long ago when we recorded that episode.

00:01:37 ◼   ► This is a thing. This is a thing we've done. But we have more information about it. That's why I brought it up. See, I'm a professional, I swear.

00:01:43 ◼   ► That might be in follow-up, you know, because it's a thing we talked about on the previous show.

00:01:48 ◼   ► Well, with you, you never know. Everything that's ever been thought about in the last 30 years is somehow follow-up.

00:01:54 ◼   ► No, no, no. I mean, this was literally two days ago, so I'm going to say this one is pretty valid as follow-up.

00:01:59 ◼   ► It is. It is. I'm trying to blame you, even though this is 100% on me.

00:02:03 ◼   ► All right. So anyways, Timo Hetzel writes,

00:02:06 ◼   ► I was shopping for audio interfaces about 10 years ago.

00:02:08 ◼   ► I found a box in the store with a sticker on it that read,

00:02:10 ◼   ► Now with Thunderbolt!

00:02:12 ◼   ► Turns out they just added a free Firewire to Thunderbolt adapter to the existing Firewire-based model.

00:02:18 ◼   ► The World of Audio is one that came up when we were discussing Firewire support going away.

00:02:23 ◼   ► They're very conservative over there, to the point where if they have a device that works,

00:02:27 ◼   ► you want to make a version of it with Thunderbolt?

00:02:30 ◼   ► Just put an adapter in the box.

00:02:31 ◼   ► And it made me wonder, like, if they do that, though,

00:02:33 ◼   ► does that get around the lack of Firewire support?

00:02:36 ◼   ► Because as far as the computer is concerned, it's not Firewire, it's Thunderbolt.

00:02:39 ◼   ► I think it does, right?

00:02:40 ◼   ► I would assume, but you would be the one to know that.

00:02:42 ◼   ► The way Thunderbolt works is basically, it's like PCI Express over a cable.

00:02:49 ◼   ► It's like the simplified version of how it works.

00:02:51 ◼   ► And so it's almost like you're plugging in a PCI Express card with a Firewire controller on it, I think.

00:02:57 ◼   ► Like, you know, logically for the computer.

00:02:59 ◼   ► So if the computer drops support for Firewire as a host protocol,

00:03:04 ◼   ► I think any way you connect it through Thunderbolt would also not work,

00:03:08 ◼   ► because all Thunderbolt is doing is exposing the Firewire controller to the computer,

00:03:12 ◼   ► saying, here, here's a Firewire controller.

00:03:13 ◼   ► And so if the computer has no idea what to do with that...

00:03:16 ◼   ► I was thinking that it would just expose the device as if it's connected directly to the PCI bus.

00:03:20 ◼   ► You know what I mean?

00:03:20 ◼   ► Yeah, but does Tahoe drop support?

00:03:23 ◼   ► Like, if you have a Mac Pro with card slots,

00:03:25 ◼   ► and if you put a Firewire card in one of those PCI slots,

00:03:28 ◼   ► I bet that'll also stop working.

00:03:29 ◼   ► Well, I don't know.

00:03:30 ◼   ► I mean, I guess this is one of those things I feel like,

00:03:33 ◼   ► well, someone obviously who knows the technical details could just tell us.

00:03:36 ◼   ► But failing that, when Tahoe does actually ship with no Firewire support,

00:03:43 ◼   ► I'm sure someone will either accidentally or on purpose get upgraded

00:03:48 ◼   ► and realize that Firewire stuff doesn't work,

00:03:50 ◼   ► and then try to find ways to make it work, and then we'll find out.

00:03:52 ◼   ► We shall see.

00:03:54 ◼   ► I'm sure someone will be kind enough to do an experiment for us.

00:03:57 ◼   ► If you wanted to install Tahoe Betas without installing Xcode Beta,

00:04:01 ◼   ► I feel like we've definitely covered this at least thrice at this point,

00:04:04 ◼   ► but that's all right.

00:04:04 ◼   ► Anonymous writes,

00:04:06 ◼   ► there's a specific device support package you can install

00:04:08 ◼   ► that doesn't require installing the entire Xcode Beta.

00:04:11 ◼   ► Device support for macOS 26 Beta 2.

00:04:14 ◼   ► You can install device support for macOS 26 Beta

00:04:16 ◼   ► if installing the macOS seed in a virtual machine fails on a host Mac.

00:04:21 ◼   ► You can get this from developer.apple.com download,

00:04:24 ◼   ► but we will also put in a direct link,

00:04:26 ◼   ► although I do believe you get challenged for login

00:04:28 ◼   ► when you click the direct link.

00:04:30 ◼   ► Yeah, you need to be logged into a developer account,

00:04:32 ◼   ► but it's interesting that, like,

00:04:33 ◼   ► so all these requirements that I didn't know

00:04:34 ◼   ► because I had never done this before,

00:04:35 ◼   ► that you need the Xcode Beta,

00:04:36 ◼   ► but actually you don't need the Xcode Beta

00:04:38 ◼   ► because you just need the device support,

00:04:39 ◼   ► and actually they distribute that separately.

00:04:41 ◼   ► It's one of the things that annoys me

00:04:43 ◼   ► about Apple's developer website.

00:04:44 ◼   ► Finding anything on there in terms of downloads

00:04:47 ◼   ► is just always such a puzzle

00:04:49 ◼   ► because they don't,

00:04:50 ◼   ► they have this weird,

00:04:51 ◼   ► they divide it up into, like,

00:04:52 ◼   ► three different tabs.

00:04:53 ◼   ► It's like OSS applications and other,

00:04:55 ◼   ► or there's, like, a more thing,

00:04:56 ◼   ► and then sometimes there's an additional download section,

00:04:58 ◼   ► and what if you want some older stuff?

00:05:00 ◼   ► Is that still available somewhere?

00:05:01 ◼   ► That's why all these little websites pop up,

00:05:02 ◼   ► basically saving the URLs of where things were

00:05:06 ◼   ► when they were first put up somewhere

00:05:07 ◼   ► on some CDN that Apple controls,

00:05:09 ◼   ► and even when it goes off their website,

00:05:10 ◼   ► as in it's no longer linked from a webpage,

00:05:12 ◼   ► the download is still there,

00:05:13 ◼   ► and you can get it if you can,

00:05:15 ◼   ► and if it's not one of those things

00:05:16 ◼   ► that Apple needs to sign or something.

00:05:17 ◼   ► Anyway, yeah, all things that could have benefited me,

00:05:20 ◼   ► but many different ways to skin this cat,

00:05:23 ◼   ► and apparently device support for macOS 26 beta 2

00:05:27 ◼   ► is one of them.

00:05:28 ◼   ► I wonder if that's going to be updated

00:05:29 ◼   ► with device support for macOS 26 beta 3,

00:05:32 ◼   ► or if it's not beta specific.

00:05:33 ◼   ► We'll find out.

00:05:34 ◼   ► We shall see.

00:05:35 ◼   ► A friend of the show, Guy Rambeau,

00:05:36 ◼   ► with regard to putting older OSs on newer Macs,

00:05:40 ◼   ► so if you buy a Mac that comes with Tahoe

00:05:42 ◼   ► in a couple of months,

00:05:43 ◼   ► and you wanted to put Sequoia on it,

00:05:45 ◼   ► so Guy writes,

00:05:46 ◼   ► on the subject of running an older OS

00:05:48 ◼   ► than the one that a given Apple Silicon Mac

00:05:50 ◼   ► was originally shipped with,

00:05:51 ◼   ► the short answer is that it is effectively impossible.

00:05:54 ◼   ► Even if you patch the restore image

00:05:56 ◼   ► by copying the missing components

00:05:57 ◼   ► from a newer release,

00:05:58 ◼   ► you'd end up with iBoot components

00:06:00 ◼   ► that don't match the kernel cache,

00:06:01 ◼   ► or a kernel cache that doesn't match

00:06:03 ◼   ► the DYLD cache in the root file system.

00:06:05 ◼   ► It would be a mess.

00:06:06 ◼   ► Regardless of the above issues,

00:06:08 ◼   ► you wouldn't be able to get such a restore image

00:06:10 ◼   ► to be flashed onto a DFU Mac,

00:06:12 ◼   ► because Apple's online signing service

00:06:14 ◼   ► would refuse to sign the firmware components

00:06:16 ◼   ► for a board that's not allow-listed

00:06:19 ◼   ► for that OS release,

00:06:20 ◼   ► and that signing is mandatory

00:06:22 ◼   ► when restoring an Apple Silicon Mac from scratch,

00:06:24 ◼   ► even with a lower security configuration.

00:06:26 ◼   ► The only way I could think of

00:06:28 ◼   ► that could potentially be used

00:06:31 ◼   ► to achieve such a thing

00:06:32 ◼   ► would be to hand-assemble

00:06:34 ◼   ► the entire volume scheme

00:06:35 ◼   ► that's required by a Mac OS installation

00:06:37 ◼   ► on Apple Silicon

00:06:37 ◼   ► using the file system components

00:06:38 ◼   ► from the older OS

00:06:40 ◼   ► and the firmware or kernel cache

00:06:42 ◼   ► from the newer OS.

00:06:43 ◼   ► Doing that is far from trivial,

00:06:45 ◼   ► and even then,

00:06:46 ◼   ► the result would likely be a machine

00:06:47 ◼   ► that kernel panics very often,

00:06:48 ◼   ► even if not before it even finishes booting up.

00:06:51 ◼   ► Yeah, so basically,

00:06:52 ◼   ► if you're thinking like,

00:06:54 ◼   ► should I attempt some kind of Mac OS hack

00:06:58 ◼   ► to get something working,

00:06:59 ◼   ► if Guy Rambeau says

00:07:00 ◼   ► that's going to be really difficult,

00:07:01 ◼   ► don't.

00:07:03 ◼   ► Just don't.

00:07:03 ◼   ► It's not going to happen

00:07:04 ◼   ► for the rest of us.

00:07:06 ◼   ► Basically, it's impossible.

00:07:07 ◼   ► All right, and then we talked last episode

00:07:10 ◼   ► about uninterruptible power supplies,

00:07:13 ◼   ► I believe this was NASC-ATP,

00:07:15 ◼   ► and how they deal in volt amps,

00:07:17 ◼   ► and the two or three of us,

00:07:20 ◼   ► but particularly John and I

00:07:21 ◼   ► probably should have known this

00:07:22 ◼   ► or did know this at some point,

00:07:23 ◼   ► kind of shrugged.

00:07:24 ◼   ► Well, Marshall C. writes,

00:07:26 ◼   ► I have my Bachelor's of Science

00:07:27 ◼   ► in Electrical Engineering,

00:07:28 ◼   ► and I'm a licensed professional engineer

00:07:29 ◼   ► in the EE power discipline.

00:07:31 ◼   ► EC power is tricky,

00:07:32 ◼   ► but here's my layman's explanation.

00:07:34 ◼   ► Real power, or P,

00:07:36 ◼   ► which is measured in watts,

00:07:37 ◼   ► this is the electric power

00:07:39 ◼   ► used to run your computer,

00:07:39 ◼   ► heat up your toaster,

00:07:40 ◼   ► and what your utility bill bills you for.

00:07:43 ◼   ► Reactive power,

00:07:45 ◼   ► which is represented by Q or V-A-Rs,

00:07:47 ◼   ► is often called fake power.

00:07:49 ◼   ► This is the electric power

00:07:50 ◼   ► used to form the necessary magnetic fields

00:07:53 ◼   ► for the transmission of AC power.

00:07:55 ◼   ► Then finally, there's apparent power,

00:07:57 ◼   ► which is represented by S,

00:07:59 ◼   ► and that's volt amps,

00:08:00 ◼   ► a combination of real and reactive power.

00:08:02 ◼   ► Imagine an X-Y axis

00:08:03 ◼   ► where the real power is on the X axis

00:08:05 ◼   ► and the reactive power is on the Y axis.

00:08:06 ◼   ► Apparent power is the distance

00:08:09 ◼   ► from the origin to the coordinate.

00:08:10 ◼   ► Non-utility people will never need

00:08:13 ◼   ► to think about reactive power

00:08:14 ◼   ► unless their job involves industrial equipment

00:08:15 ◼   ► like electric arc furnaces,

00:08:17 ◼   ► furnaces,

00:08:18 ◼   ► I can get there, I swear,

00:08:19 ◼   ► large motors, etc.

00:08:21 ◼   ► and they're responsible

00:08:22 ◼   ► for the engineering or bills

00:08:23 ◼   ► to the power company.

00:08:24 ◼   ► Apparent power is how devices

00:08:25 ◼   ► that generate power

00:08:26 ◼   ► have to be rated

00:08:27 ◼   ► because they're responsible

00:08:28 ◼   ► for providing the real

00:08:29 ◼   ► and reactive power for the system.

00:08:30 ◼   ► For most consumer situations,

00:08:32 ◼   ► you can assume that the watt rating

00:08:34 ◼   ► will be roughly the same

00:08:35 ◼   ► as your V-A rating.

00:08:36 ◼   ► Look, AC power is insanely complicated.

00:08:40 ◼   ► Like what I said last,

00:08:41 ◼   ► DC power, fairly simple to conceptualize.

00:08:44 ◼   ► AC power, it's so complicated.

00:08:46 ◼   ► One thing,

00:08:48 ◼   ► I went to a family member's house once

00:08:51 ◼   ► and they had plugged into the wall

00:08:53 ◼   ► these like things

00:08:55 ◼   ► that claim to be energy savers

00:08:57 ◼   ► and they like lit up

00:08:57 ◼   ► and I was curious

00:08:58 ◼   ► so I looked it up

00:08:59 ◼   ► and it's basically like

00:09:02 ◼   ► it's some weird Amazon device

00:09:04 ◼   ► from God knows where in China

00:09:06 ◼   ► that bridges the two AC prongs

00:09:09 ◼   ► with a capacitor.

00:09:10 ◼   ► I think it was the gist of it

00:09:11 ◼   ► and at first I was like

00:09:13 ◼   ► there's no way that could possibly work

00:09:14 ◼   ► and I was mostly right

00:09:17 ◼   ► but not entirely right.

00:09:19 ◼   ► Like I looked up like you know

00:09:22 ◼   ► how do these purport to work

00:09:24 ◼   ► and does it actually achieve

00:09:25 ◼   ► some kind of power savings

00:09:26 ◼   ► somehow magically

00:09:27 ◼   ► and the answer basically is like

00:09:29 ◼   ► it plays a trick

00:09:30 ◼   ► with the way those AC like phases

00:09:34 ◼   ► and pulls and induction motor loads

00:09:37 ◼   ► like it pulls some kind of trick with that

00:09:39 ◼   ► that like if it did a really big version of it

00:09:43 ◼   ► it might slightly save you some

00:09:45 ◼   ► of your billing of your power

00:09:47 ◼   ► but of course these little tiny things

00:09:49 ◼   ► were scams

00:09:50 ◼   ► and didn't actually do anything

00:09:51 ◼   ► like notable

00:09:52 ◼   ► but like the principle

00:09:53 ◼   ► upon which they claim to work

00:09:55 ◼   ► was not entirely BS

00:09:57 ◼   ► it was just mostly BS

00:09:58 ◼   ► but yeah they are regardless scams

00:10:01 ◼   ► but I thought that was interesting

00:10:02 ◼   ► it's like oh

00:10:02 ◼   ► there's other weird complexity

00:10:04 ◼   ► to AC power

00:10:04 ◼   ► that like

00:10:05 ◼   ► it's sort of

00:10:06 ◼   ► kind of

00:10:08 ◼   ► might enable weird tricks

00:10:10 ◼   ► to happen

00:10:10 ◼   ► on a much larger scale

00:10:12 ◼   ► I mean

00:10:13 ◼   ► tampering with your electrical meter

00:10:15 ◼   ► will also save you money

00:10:16 ◼   ► yes

00:10:17 ◼   ► probably counts as fraud

00:10:18 ◼   ► and so does

00:10:19 ◼   ► definitely

00:10:19 ◼   ► modifying the electrical system

00:10:20 ◼   ► at your house in some way

00:10:21 ◼   ► to make the electrical meter

00:10:22 ◼   ► or read incorrectly

00:10:23 ◼   ► so yeah

00:10:24 ◼   ► all right

00:10:25 ◼   ► Jared Nichols writes

00:10:27 ◼   ► with regard to smoke alarm

00:10:28 ◼   ► remote notifications

00:10:29 ◼   ► so Marco

00:10:31 ◼   ► I believe you were talking

00:10:32 ◼   ► last episode

00:10:33 ◼   ► about how

00:10:34 ◼   ► you've got your

00:10:35 ◼   ► you know temperature sensors

00:10:36 ◼   ► and we were talking about

00:10:37 ◼   ► leak sensors

00:10:38 ◼   ► but then what about

00:10:39 ◼   ► smoke detecting

00:10:42 ◼   ► and so Jared writes

00:10:43 ◼   ► listen to Overtime

00:10:44 ◼   ► and Marco mentioned

00:10:45 ◼   ► smart smoke alarms

00:10:46 ◼   ► by Yolink

00:10:46 ◼   ► if you've got HomePods

00:10:48 ◼   ► in the house

00:10:48 ◼   ► you've effectively now

00:10:49 ◼   ► got smart smoke alarms

00:10:50 ◼   ► I've got regular

00:10:51 ◼   ► residential smoke alarms

00:10:52 ◼   ► and when my son

00:10:53 ◼   ► home from college

00:10:53 ◼   ► burns bacon

00:10:54 ◼   ► while my partner

00:10:55 ◼   ► and I are not home

00:10:56 ◼   ► we get a home app alert

00:10:57 ◼   ► about the smoke alarms

00:10:59 ◼   ► going off

00:10:59 ◼   ► burn the bacon again

00:11:00 ◼   ► yeah

00:11:01 ◼   ► and then back to normal business

00:11:02 ◼   ► yeah so

00:11:04 ◼   ► I thought this was interesting

00:11:05 ◼   ► so I actually

00:11:05 ◼   ► I have gotten one of these alerts before

00:11:07 ◼   ► because I do have HomePods

00:11:08 ◼   ► and one time

00:11:10 ◼   ► the smoke alarms

00:11:11 ◼   ► did go off

00:11:11 ◼   ► and I was

00:11:12 ◼   ► I was not home

00:11:13 ◼   ► but my wife and son were

00:11:14 ◼   ► and I

00:11:16 ◼   ► and it comes in

00:11:16 ◼   ► as one of those

00:11:17 ◼   ► like high priority alerts

00:11:18 ◼   ► that breaks through

00:11:19 ◼   ► do not disturb

00:11:19 ◼   ► and so like

00:11:20 ◼   ► it will sound

00:11:21 ◼   ► no matter what

00:11:22 ◼   ► like it's one of those

00:11:23 ◼   ► kind of you know

00:11:23 ◼   ► urgent alerts

00:11:24 ◼   ► on the iPhone

00:11:25 ◼   ► and it sounds

00:11:26 ◼   ► you know like

00:11:27 ◼   ► it sounds like

00:11:27 ◼   ► an urgent alert

00:11:28 ◼   ► you know it's like

00:11:28 ◼   ► a very alarming sign

00:11:29 ◼   ► like oh god

00:11:30 ◼   ► and you look

00:11:30 ◼   ► and it's like

00:11:30 ◼   ► you know

00:11:31 ◼   ► it gives you a notification

00:11:32 ◼   ► saying like oh yeah

00:11:33 ◼   ► there's

00:11:33 ◼   ► it sounds like a smoke alarm

00:11:34 ◼   ► is going off in your house

00:11:35 ◼   ► and like oh my god

00:11:36 ◼   ► and in that case

00:11:39 ◼   ► it turned out

00:11:39 ◼   ► they had burned something

00:11:40 ◼   ► in the oven

00:11:40 ◼   ► but I have seen

00:11:42 ◼   ► these notifications

00:11:42 ◼   ► and so it is better

00:11:44 ◼   ► than nothing

00:11:44 ◼   ► in the sense that like

00:11:45 ◼   ► if you want to be

00:11:46 ◼   ► remotely notified

00:11:47 ◼   ► of your smoke alarm

00:11:47 ◼   ► going off

00:11:48 ◼   ► that's good

00:11:49 ◼   ► that's one way to do it

00:11:50 ◼   ► another way

00:11:51 ◼   ► is to just get a smoke alarm

00:11:52 ◼   ► like nests

00:11:53 ◼   ► or you know

00:11:54 ◼   ► or these Yolink ones

00:11:55 ◼   ► or there's a bunch

00:11:55 ◼   ► of weird Amazon brand ones now

00:11:56 ◼   ► and the reason why

00:11:59 ◼   ► I kind of smiled

00:12:00 ◼   ► when I got this

00:12:01 ◼   ► when we got this feedback email

00:12:02 ◼   ► is like yes

00:12:03 ◼   ► the HomePod can do it

00:12:05 ◼   ► but do you trust

00:12:08 ◼   ► your HomePod

00:12:08 ◼   ► to do anything important

00:12:11 ◼   ► reliably

00:12:11 ◼   ► like I like as much

00:12:14 ◼   ► I'm glad I had it

00:12:15 ◼   ► and it did indeed

00:12:16 ◼   ► work for me once

00:12:16 ◼   ► but my HomePod

00:12:18 ◼   ► does not reliably do

00:12:21 ◼   ► literally any of the things

00:12:22 ◼   ► that it is marketed

00:12:23 ◼   ► as doing

00:12:23 ◼   ► like it doesn't do

00:12:24 ◼   ► a single one reliably

00:12:26 ◼   ► I would say

00:12:27 ◼   ► I have

00:12:27 ◼   ► maybe a 60%

00:12:29 ◼   ► success rate

00:12:30 ◼   ► with the things

00:12:30 ◼   ► I try to have happen

00:12:32 ◼   ► on my HomePod

00:12:32 ◼   ► so it kind of points out

00:12:35 ◼   ► like if Apple wants

00:12:36 ◼   ► these features

00:12:37 ◼   ► to be taken more seriously

00:12:38 ◼   ► there's so much work

00:12:40 ◼   ► to do with the reputation

00:12:41 ◼   ► and the reliability

00:12:42 ◼   ► of Siri

00:12:43 ◼   ► of these products

00:12:44 ◼   ► of their backing services

00:12:45 ◼   ► it has to be

00:12:47 ◼   ► way better than this

00:12:48 ◼   ► like right now

00:12:48 ◼   ► the idea

00:12:49 ◼   ► that I would rely

00:12:50 ◼   ► solely on this

00:12:51 ◼   ► it literally made me

00:12:53 ◼   ► laugh out loud

00:12:54 ◼   ► earlier today

00:12:54 ◼   ► when I saw this email

00:12:55 ◼   ► so it's nice to have it

00:12:57 ◼   ► as a backup

00:12:58 ◼   ► like oh that's

00:12:58 ◼   ► that's cute Apple

00:12:59 ◼   ► nice job

00:13:00 ◼   ► you know that's nice

00:13:00 ◼   ► but I'm not going

00:13:02 ◼   ► to rely on this

00:13:02 ◼   ► I would rather

00:13:03 ◼   ► also have smart smoke

00:13:04 ◼   ► alarms that notify me

00:13:05 ◼   ► through any

00:13:06 ◼   ► literally any other means

00:13:07 ◼   ► besides hoping a HomePod

00:13:09 ◼   ► will do one of its

00:13:10 ◼   ► many accessory jobs

00:13:12 ◼   ► I had the same thought

00:13:13 ◼   ► when I saw this email

00:13:14 ◼   ► I got the original HomePod

00:13:17 ◼   ► when it was first released

00:13:18 ◼   ► and had it for a long time

00:13:20 ◼   ► recently Marco sent me

00:13:22 ◼   ► two of his original HomePods

00:13:24 ◼   ► like the big ones

00:13:25 ◼   ► the original big HomePods

00:13:26 ◼   ► because he just didn't

00:13:27 ◼   ► want them anymore

00:13:28 ◼   ► and around that time

00:13:30 ◼   ► my original HomePod

00:13:31 ◼   ► started being a little bit wonky

00:13:32 ◼   ► like it wouldn't do OS updates

00:13:34 ◼   ► it would

00:13:35 ◼   ► if you saw the

00:13:36 ◼   ► in the Home app on the phone

00:13:37 ◼   ► it would show the little spinner

00:13:38 ◼   ► for an OS update

00:13:38 ◼   ► but then it would just disappear

00:13:39 ◼   ► and it kept saying

00:13:40 ◼   ► we're having trouble

00:13:41 ◼   ► signing into your Apple ID

00:13:42 ◼   ► bring your phone close

00:13:43 ◼   ► to the HomePod

00:13:44 ◼   ► and do blah blah blah

00:13:45 ◼   ► and I refactory reset it

00:13:47 ◼   ► and reset it up

00:13:48 ◼   ► a million times

00:13:49 ◼   ► did all sorts of stuff

00:13:50 ◼   ► and it was just

00:13:50 ◼   ► it just wasn't working

00:13:51 ◼   ► and eventually

00:13:53 ◼   ► it stopped showing up

00:13:54 ◼   ► as an airplay target

00:13:56 ◼   ► I was like

00:13:56 ◼   ► well whatever

00:13:57 ◼   ► I'll swap it down

00:13:58 ◼   ► for as the other two

00:13:59 ◼   ► were in the basement

00:13:59 ◼   ► I'll swap it down

00:14:00 ◼   ► for one of the

00:14:00 ◼   ► Marco's ones in the basement

00:14:02 ◼   ► so I put mine down

00:14:03 ◼   ► into the basement

00:14:04 ◼   ► it was in like

00:14:05 ◼   ► a stereo pair

00:14:07 ◼   ► but mine was like

00:14:07 ◼   ► just dead

00:14:07 ◼   ► so I just put it there

00:14:08 ◼   ► brought one up

00:14:09 ◼   ► from the basement

00:14:10 ◼   ► put it upstairs

00:14:10 ◼   ► it started doing

00:14:12 ◼   ► the same thing

00:14:12 ◼   ► swapped it again

00:14:13 ◼   ► for the third one

00:14:14 ◼   ► and now

00:14:15 ◼   ► the situation I'm in

00:14:16 ◼   ► is the third

00:14:17 ◼   ► and last one

00:14:17 ◼   ► that still

00:14:18 ◼   ► somewhat functions

00:14:20 ◼   ► and somewhat does

00:14:20 ◼   ► something like

00:14:21 ◼   ► you can talk to it

00:14:22 ◼   ► and turn the lights off

00:14:22 ◼   ► still tells me

00:14:24 ◼   ► that I was having

00:14:25 ◼   ► trouble shining

00:14:25 ◼   ► to my Apple ID

00:14:26 ◼   ► still won't do

00:14:27 ◼   ► an OS update

00:14:28 ◼   ► I think

00:14:30 ◼   ► sometimes it appears

00:14:31 ◼   ► as an airplay target

00:14:32 ◼   ► for audio

00:14:32 ◼   ► sometimes doesn't

00:14:33 ◼   ► and then my

00:14:34 ◼   ► original HomePod

00:14:35 ◼   ► now when you plug it in

00:14:37 ◼   ► doesn't do anything

00:14:39 ◼   ► doesn't turn on

00:14:40 ◼   ► nothing lights up

00:14:41 ◼   ► like you know

00:14:41 ◼   ► that's all you can do

00:14:42 ◼   ► with these HomePods

00:14:42 ◼   ► is plug them in

00:14:43 ◼   ► there's no on and off

00:14:44 ◼   ► switch

00:14:44 ◼   ► so my original HomePod

00:14:45 ◼   ► is dead dead

00:14:47 ◼   ► because there's that

00:14:47 ◼   ► whole issue that

00:14:48 ◼   ► you can find YouTube's

00:14:49 ◼   ► videos about

00:14:49 ◼   ► where there's some

00:14:50 ◼   ► component on the board

00:14:51 ◼   ► that burns out

00:14:52 ◼   ► because they have these

00:14:52 ◼   ► people who just repair

00:14:53 ◼   ► them anyway

00:14:53 ◼   ► so what I'm saying is

00:14:55 ◼   ► I have three first

00:14:56 ◼   ► generation HomePods

00:14:57 ◼   ► and they're all sort of

00:14:59 ◼   ► on their way out

00:14:59 ◼   ► I feel like that was

00:15:00 ◼   ► just a flawed hardware

00:15:01 ◼   ► product

00:15:02 ◼   ► and I considered

00:15:04 ◼   ► you know like maybe

00:15:04 ◼   ► I should just get a

00:15:05 ◼   ► HomePod mini

00:15:05 ◼   ► if I just want to use

00:15:06 ◼   ► it to turn the lights

00:15:07 ◼   ► on and off

00:15:07 ◼   ► and use it for my

00:15:09 ◼   ► testing against other

00:15:10 ◼   ► things or whatever

00:15:10 ◼   ► but reading this

00:15:12 ◼   ► thing of like using

00:15:12 ◼   ► it as a smoke alarm

00:15:13 ◼   ► like I have that

00:15:14 ◼   ► feature enabled

00:15:14 ◼   ► on all these things

00:15:16 ◼   ► just because why not

00:15:17 ◼   ► but absolutely would

00:15:18 ◼   ► not use it as my

00:15:19 ◼   ► primary means of

00:15:20 ◼   ► anything

00:15:21 ◼   ► I don't even use it

00:15:22 ◼   ► as my primary means

00:15:22 ◼   ► of turning the lights

00:15:23 ◼   ► on and off

00:15:23 ◼   ► because there's a

00:15:24 ◼   ► Google device in the

00:15:25 ◼   ► same room and most

00:15:25 ◼   ► of the family uses that

00:15:26 ◼   ► one because it works

00:15:27 ◼   ► every time

00:15:27 ◼   ► all right so Dion

00:15:30 ◼   ► Garrett writes with

00:15:30 ◼   ► regard to the limits

00:15:31 ◼   ► of LLMs and LRMs

00:15:33 ◼   ► the app paper

00:15:34 ◼   ► discussed in the

00:15:35 ◼   ► overtime segment of

00:15:36 ◼   ► ATP 643 mentioned

00:15:37 ◼   ► LRMs complete collapse

00:15:39 ◼   ► on out of distribution

00:15:41 ◼   ► problems this is not

00:15:43 ◼   ► the same as outside

00:15:44 ◼   ► of the training data

00:15:45 ◼   ► which is what we had

00:15:46 ◼   ► said a few times

00:15:47 ◼   ► neural nets generalize

00:15:49 ◼   ► really well on inputs

00:15:50 ◼   ► that are not in the

00:15:51 ◼   ► training data but are

00:15:52 ◼   ► drawn from the same

00:15:52 ◼   ► distribution as the

00:15:54 ◼   ► training data I think

00:15:55 ◼   ► you know this already

00:15:56 ◼   ► but there's a huge body

00:15:57 ◼   ► of people who believe

00:15:58 ◼   ► that LLMs cannot

00:15:59 ◼   ► reproduce anything that

00:15:59 ◼   ► wasn't literally in the

00:16:00 ◼   ► training data that's

00:16:02 ◼   ► certainly not true

00:16:03 ◼   ► yeah so that is a

00:16:04 ◼   ► fine distinction it's

00:16:05 ◼   ► worth making although

00:16:06 ◼   ► the fact that LLMs can

00:16:08 ◼   ► reproduce things that

00:16:09 ◼   ► were not in the

00:16:10 ◼   ► training data but just

00:16:11 ◼   ► are in the distribution

00:16:11 ◼   ► of the training data

00:16:12 ◼   ► that's where hallucinations

00:16:14 ◼   ► so-called hallucinations

00:16:15 ◼   ► come from like all of

00:16:16 ◼   ► it is just statistical

00:16:17 ◼   ► stuff based on the

00:16:18 ◼   ► training data so there's

00:16:19 ◼   ► the distribution of

00:16:20 ◼   ► the stuff in the

00:16:21 ◼   ► training data and

00:16:22 ◼   ► there's the things that

00:16:22 ◼   ► can be reproduced and

00:16:24 ◼   ► yeah it'll it'll put

00:16:26 ◼   ► so if it looks like

00:16:27 ◼   ► something would fall

00:16:27 ◼   ► naturally within the

00:16:28 ◼   ► distribution it will

00:16:29 ◼   ► produce that is that

00:16:30 ◼   ► valid or true or

00:16:32 ◼   ► or you know or

00:16:33 ◼   ► are the things in the

00:16:34 ◼   ► training data true or

00:16:35 ◼   ► are the things that like

00:16:36 ◼   ► it synthesizes because

00:16:37 ◼   ► they're within the realm

00:16:38 ◼   ► of the stuff that's in

00:16:39 ◼   ► the training data that

00:16:40 ◼   ► may not necessarily be

00:16:41 ◼   ► true either and that's

00:16:41 ◼   ► you know that's why you

00:16:42 ◼   ► will get LLMs to say

00:16:43 ◼   ► things that you said

00:16:44 ◼   ► this information this

00:16:45 ◼   ► fact this answer was

00:16:47 ◼   ► not in the training data

00:16:48 ◼   ► no it wasn't in the

00:16:49 ◼   ► training data but it

00:16:50 ◼   ► was apparently in the

00:16:50 ◼   ► quote-unquote

00:16:51 ◼   ► distribution of the

00:16:52 ◼   ► training data and

00:16:52 ◼   ► that's why it got

00:16:53 ◼   ► spat out of the

00:16:54 ◼   ► machine but anyway

00:16:55 ◼   ► important important

00:16:56 ◼   ► distinction this is from

00:16:57 ◼   ► a follow-up from many

00:16:58 ◼   ► episodes ago so we're

00:16:59 ◼   ► sorry for the delay but

00:17:00 ◼   ► WWD kind of sidetracked

00:17:02 ◼   ► it and speaking of

00:17:02 ◼   ► that right so we

00:17:04 ◼   ► talked about that paper

00:17:05 ◼   ► that Apple had put up

00:17:06 ◼   ► the illusion of

00:17:07 ◼   ► thinking understanding

00:17:08 ◼   ► the strengths and

00:17:08 ◼   ► limitations of reasoning

00:17:09 ◼   ► models via the lens of

00:17:10 ◼   ► problem complexity and

00:17:12 ◼   ► there was a rebuttal

00:17:13 ◼   ► about it that made a

00:17:15 ◼   ► bunch of waves and we

00:17:16 ◼   ► again we just didn't

00:17:17 ◼   ► have the chance to talk

00:17:18 ◼   ► about it the rebuttal

00:17:19 ◼   ► was called the illusion

00:17:20 ◼   ► of the illusion of

00:17:21 ◼   ► thinking and it was by

00:17:22 ◼   ► Alex Lawson and

00:17:23 ◼   ► Claude from

00:17:24 ◼   ► Anthropic reading from

00:17:26 ◼   ► there Apple's paper says

00:17:27 ◼   ► that large reasoning

00:17:27 ◼   ► models or LRMs

00:17:28 ◼   ► exhibit accuracy

00:17:29 ◼   ► collapse on planning

00:17:30 ◼   ► puzzles beyond certain

00:17:31 ◼   ► complexity thresholds we

00:17:33 ◼   ► demonstrate that their

00:17:34 ◼   ► findings primarily

00:17:34 ◼   ► reflect experimental

00:17:35 ◼   ► design limitations

00:17:36 ◼   ► rather than fundamental

00:17:37 ◼   ► reasoning failures

00:17:38 ◼   ► then there was a

00:17:39 ◼   ► whole bunch of talk

00:17:40 ◼   ► about that there was a

00:17:41 ◼   ► rebuttal to that

00:17:42 ◼   ► rebuttal by Victor

00:17:43 ◼   ► Martinez Victor writes

00:17:45 ◼   ► putting aside the stunt

00:17:45 ◼   ► of having Claude Opus as

00:17:47 ◼   ► a co-author yes I'm not

00:17:48 ◼   ► kidding the paper is in

00:17:49 ◼   ► itself is a poor

00:17:50 ◼   ► rebuttal for many

00:17:51 ◼   ► reasons we shall which

00:17:52 ◼   ► we shall explore but

00:17:53 ◼   ► mainly for missing the

00:17:54 ◼   ► entire point of the

00:17:55 ◼   ► paper in prior research

00:17:56 ◼   ► by AI researchers such

00:17:58 ◼   ► as professor some K

00:18:00 ◼   ► based name I'm not

00:18:00 ◼   ► going to try to

00:18:01 ◼   ► pronounce because I

00:18:01 ◼   ► will butcher

00:18:02 ◼   ► oh you gotta attempt

00:18:03 ◼   ► it you gotta attempt

00:18:03 ◼   ► it come combahampti

00:18:05 ◼   ► combahampti I'm gonna

00:18:08 ◼   ► say compound potty yeah

00:18:10 ◼   ► I think you're yeah I

00:18:11 ◼   ► think you're closer then

00:18:13 ◼   ► Gary Marcus chimed in

00:18:14 ◼   ► again seven replies to

00:18:16 ◼   ► the viral Apple

00:18:17 ◼   ► reasoning paper and why

00:18:18 ◼   ► they fall short and

00:18:19 ◼   ► we're gonna link all

00:18:20 ◼   ► these in the show notes

00:18:20 ◼   ► of course and then

00:18:22 ◼   ► finally it turns out

00:18:23 ◼   ► that Alex Lawson's

00:18:23 ◼   ► rebuttal was a quote

00:18:24 ◼   ► unquote joke so

00:18:26 ◼   ► reading from Alex

00:18:27 ◼   ► people were treating

00:18:28 ◼   ► my elaborate poopoo

00:18:29 ◼   ► post as real science

00:18:31 ◼   ► and while I'd aim to

00:18:33 ◼   ► point out some real

00:18:33 ◼   ► issues with the post I

00:18:34 ◼   ► hadn't really expected

00:18:35 ◼   ► anyone to take it

00:18:35 ◼   ► seriously look I should

00:18:37 ◼   ► have been more careful

00:18:37 ◼   ► the original version I

00:18:38 ◼   ► uploaded had some

00:18:39 ◼   ► genuinely terrible

00:18:40 ◼   ► sections stuff Claude

00:18:41 ◼   ► had written that I

00:18:41 ◼   ► hadn't bothered to

00:18:42 ◼   ► check properly I had

00:18:44 ◼   ► vibe coded if you will

00:18:45 ◼   ► the whole thing and

00:18:46 ◼   ► quite frequently asked

00:18:47 ◼   ► for an entire rewrite if

00:18:48 ◼   ► I wanted a small

00:18:48 ◼   ► section to be different

00:18:49 ◼   ► there was a

00:18:50 ◼   ► computational

00:18:51 ◼   ► complexity analysis

00:18:51 ◼   ► that was just

00:18:52 ◼   ► complete nonsense

00:18:53 ◼   ► if I'd been doing my

00:18:54 ◼   ► actual job or if I'd

00:18:55 ◼   ► been working on an

00:18:56 ◼   ► actual paper I'd have

00:18:58 ◼   ► been more careful

00:18:59 ◼   ► my thinking was that

00:19:00 ◼   ► the whole point was to

00:19:01 ◼   ► show that even Claude

00:19:02 ◼   ► could find problems with

00:19:03 ◼   ► the original paper I

00:19:03 ◼   ► wasn't trying to write

00:19:04 ◼   ► something good I've

00:19:05 ◼   ► updated the paper to

00:19:06 ◼   ► fix the biggest mistakes

00:19:07 ◼   ► from the first version

00:19:07 ◼   ► but the lesson's been

00:19:08 ◼   ► learned once something's

00:19:09 ◼   ► out there it's out of

00:19:10 ◼   ► your hands

00:19:11 ◼   ► yeah there's kind of

00:19:12 ◼   ► reaction of like boy my

00:19:13 ◼   ► thing kind of went

00:19:13 ◼   ► viral but you know

00:19:14 ◼   ► haha it wasn't serious

00:19:16 ◼   ► so okay I guess lesson

00:19:18 ◼   ► learned but anyway that

00:19:19 ◼   ► all that drama

00:19:20 ◼   ► essentially happened in

00:19:21 ◼   ► the time between when

00:19:21 ◼   ► this uh rebuttal of the

00:19:23 ◼   ► paper was put into our

00:19:25 ◼   ► show notes and then

00:19:25 ◼   ► WWC happened so we

00:19:27 ◼   ► were looped around to

00:19:28 ◼   ► find it and you know

00:19:29 ◼   ► there's Apple's paper

00:19:30 ◼   ► then there was this

00:19:31 ◼   ► thing rebutting it that

00:19:32 ◼   ► turned out to just be a

00:19:33 ◼   ► I love how we're using

00:19:34 ◼   ► vibe coding for things

00:19:35 ◼   ► that are not coding

00:19:35 ◼   ► a vibe coded quote

00:19:38 ◼   ► unquote joke response

00:19:39 ◼   ► that was kind of

00:19:40 ◼   ► serious because it was

00:19:41 ◼   ► like I do think there's

00:19:41 ◼   ► problems but I'll have

00:19:42 ◼   ► Claude help me write it

00:19:43 ◼   ► and won't that be fun

00:19:44 ◼   ► turns out not so fun

00:19:45 ◼   ► Lister Periato wrote

00:19:48 ◼   ► with regard to HDR on

00:19:49 ◼   ► the uh 26 OS's I've

00:19:51 ◼   ► noticed that Apple is

00:19:52 ◼   ► using way brighter HDR

00:19:54 ◼   ► effects on interface

00:19:54 ◼   ► elements in the betas

00:19:55 ◼   ► for iOS 26 but I

00:19:57 ◼   ► haven't read or heard

00:19:58 ◼   ► anyone discussing that

00:19:59 ◼   ► including Apple I think

00:20:01 ◼   ► that they started playing

00:20:02 ◼   ► with this with the new

00:20:03 ◼   ► Siri animations on

00:20:04 ◼   ► iOS 18 and now with

00:20:05 ◼   ► 26 it's sort of

00:20:06 ◼   ► everywhere is this

00:20:06 ◼   ► available for developers

00:20:07 ◼   ► to play around with

00:20:08 ◼   ► well it scratches my

00:20:09 ◼   ► nerdy itch for novelty

00:20:10 ◼   ► more chroma more luma

00:20:11 ◼   ► more power I can see

00:20:13 ◼   ► it risks getting old

00:20:14 ◼   ► and gauche gauche is

00:20:15 ◼   ► that gauche thank you

00:20:17 ◼   ► at least I knew enough

00:20:18 ◼   ► to know it was wrong

00:20:18 ◼   ► uh anyway uh old and

00:20:21 ◼   ► gauche very fast so I

00:20:22 ◼   ► hope Apple's designers

00:20:23 ◼   ► thread carefully it

00:20:25 ◼   ► could be used the same

00:20:25 ◼   ► way that game developers

00:20:26 ◼   ► use lights to guide

00:20:27 ◼   ► players attention or it

00:20:28 ◼   ► could end up blinding

00:20:28 ◼   ► them out of their train

00:20:29 ◼   ► of thought I will

00:20:30 ◼   ► note that we did

00:20:31 ◼   ► mention this when we

00:20:31 ◼   ► were discussing the uh

00:20:32 ◼   ► x86 OS's or I

00:20:34 ◼   ► I keep writing it

00:20:35 ◼   ► xos 26 the OS 26 is

00:20:38 ◼   ► um yeah I think uh

00:20:40 ◼   ► Marco noted it and I

00:20:41 ◼   ► think maybe I did it

00:20:41 ◼   ► when we were talking

00:20:42 ◼   ► about in the past but

00:20:42 ◼   ► yeah I've been noticing

00:20:43 ◼   ► it more and more it's a

00:20:44 ◼   ► thing they're doing um

00:20:45 ◼   ► you know so they did it

00:20:47 ◼   ► with Siri with the if

00:20:49 ◼   ► you've noticed on your

00:20:49 ◼   ► phone when the new

00:20:50 ◼   ► Siri animation came

00:20:51 ◼   ► one of the reasons you

00:20:52 ◼   ► might have noticed it

00:20:53 ◼   ► is that it literally is

00:20:55 ◼   ► brighter if you have an

00:20:55 ◼   ► HDR screen on your phone

00:20:56 ◼   ► which most of us do

00:20:57 ◼   ► these days uh and

00:20:59 ◼   ► they're using it in all

00:21:00 ◼   ► sorts of places like uh

00:21:02 ◼   ► I think like in

00:21:02 ◼   ► tooltips and popovers

00:21:04 ◼   ► on macOS they'll they're

00:21:06 ◼   ► briefly in and when we

00:21:08 ◼   ► say HDR we just mean

00:21:09 ◼   ► brighter than the

00:21:10 ◼   ► brightest white uh that

00:21:12 ◼   ► your screen is set to

00:21:13 ◼   ► display so uh as we

00:21:15 ◼   ► discussed before if you

00:21:15 ◼   ► have a mac with HDR

00:21:16 ◼   ► there is the maximum

00:21:18 ◼   ► brightness that macOS

00:21:20 ◼   ► will let you set the

00:21:20 ◼   ► screen so if you just

00:21:21 ◼   ► make like a window like

00:21:22 ◼   ► a text edit window how

00:21:24 ◼   ► bright will the white in

00:21:25 ◼   ► that window get and it

00:21:26 ◼   ► used to be like three or

00:21:27 ◼   ► four hundred nits and

00:21:28 ◼   ► now I think they'll let

00:21:28 ◼   ► you go up to 700 or

00:21:29 ◼   ► whatever but max with

00:21:31 ◼   ► HDR screens often go

00:21:32 ◼   ► up to as high as

00:21:32 ◼   ► 1600 nits but they

00:21:34 ◼   ► don't draw the text edit

00:21:35 ◼   ► window at 1600 nits

00:21:36 ◼   ► because a they would

00:21:37 ◼   ► draw a lot of power and

00:21:38 ◼   ► b would be blinding in

00:21:39 ◼   ► many environments um so

00:21:41 ◼   ► that's what we say by

00:21:42 ◼   ► HDR brightness something

00:21:43 ◼   ► that is brighter than

00:21:44 ◼   ► the cap on the

00:21:46 ◼   ► brightness of plain

00:21:47 ◼   ► white in just like part

00:21:49 ◼   ► of the user interface

00:21:50 ◼   ► something that's not an

00:21:51 ◼   ► HDR photo or whatever

00:21:52 ◼   ► and what they're doing

00:21:53 ◼   ► in Tahoe and a bunch of

00:21:54 ◼   ► places is making things

00:21:55 ◼   ► like popovers briefly

00:21:57 ◼   ► appear when they first

00:21:59 ◼   ► like pop over when they

00:22:00 ◼   ► first pop up briefly

00:22:01 ◼   ► appear at a much higher

00:22:02 ◼   ► brightness and then fade

00:22:04 ◼   ► back down to like the

00:22:05 ◼   ► full white level

00:22:05 ◼   ► brightness and it's an

00:22:07 ◼   ► interesting effect but

00:22:08 ◼   ► I'm not sure it fits in

00:22:10 ◼   ► because it's so it's not

00:22:12 ◼   ► it's not ubiquitous it's

00:22:13 ◼   ► just a few elements do

00:22:14 ◼   ► this and they do it

00:22:15 ◼   ► briefly so much so that

00:22:17 ◼   ► you might think am I

00:22:18 ◼   ► seeing something you're

00:22:19 ◼   ► not it's it's a real

00:22:20 ◼   ► thing that's happening

00:22:21 ◼   ► but you could go hours

00:22:23 ◼   ► without seeing this

00:22:24 ◼   ► effect and then have it

00:22:25 ◼   ► appear on the phone

00:22:26 ◼   ► obviously the Siri

00:22:27 ◼   ► animation does it every

00:22:28 ◼   ► single time so you kind of

00:22:29 ◼   ► get used to it there

00:22:30 ◼   ► but on the Mac you might

00:22:32 ◼   ► think you're seeing things

00:22:33 ◼   ► you're not it's not a ghost

00:22:34 ◼   ► inhabiting your computer

00:22:35 ◼   ► those things really are

00:22:36 ◼   ► briefly a little bit

00:22:37 ◼   ► brighter than you would

00:22:37 ◼   ► expect them to be

00:22:38 ◼   ► yeah I'm noticing this all

00:22:40 ◼   ► over the iPhone beta as

00:22:41 ◼   ► well even even mostly in

00:22:43 ◼   ► like edges of things like

00:22:45 ◼   ► when you know with with

00:22:46 ◼   ► part of the glass effects

00:22:48 ◼   ► here and there there's a

00:22:49 ◼   ► lot of a lot of controls

00:22:50 ◼   ► have like little glints

00:22:51 ◼   ► you know on the edges of

00:22:53 ◼   ► like oh there's this is

00:22:54 ◼   ► reflecting light and it's

00:22:56 ◼   ► hard to tell whether it's

00:22:58 ◼   ► passing that HDR threshold

00:23:00 ◼   ► or not but I'm pretty sure

00:23:01 ◼   ► it is and it's it's doing

00:23:03 ◼   ► it right now it is doing it

00:23:05 ◼   ► kind of you know occasionally

00:23:07 ◼   ► and subtly and and in small

00:23:09 ◼   ► areas of the of the bit

00:23:11 ◼   ► maps and stuff in small areas

00:23:12 ◼   ► of the of the screen but it's

00:23:14 ◼   ► definitely there like it sure

00:23:16 ◼   ► looks like it's there and I

00:23:18 ◼   ► think this is you know on one

00:23:20 ◼   ► hand it kind of it kind of

00:23:23 ◼   ► feels like cheating because

00:23:25 ◼   ► apps can't really do their

00:23:28 ◼   ► own UI very easily this way

00:23:30 ◼   ► like like in in a custom way

00:23:32 ◼   ► like for apps to use the the

00:23:35 ◼   ► HDR range would require it

00:23:37 ◼   ► requires a lot of hacks and

00:23:38 ◼   ► has a lot of limits and it's

00:23:39 ◼   ► it's not it's not easy for

00:23:41 ◼   ► apps to do so basically what

00:23:42 ◼   ► this will do is it will make

00:23:44 ◼   ► Apple's stock controls and

00:23:47 ◼   ► Apple's built-in system apps

00:23:48 ◼   ► that use this kind of

00:23:49 ◼   ► technique or system features

00:23:51 ◼   ► it'll make them look way

00:23:54 ◼   ► brighter and bolder and

00:23:55 ◼   ► better and easier to notice

00:23:57 ◼   ► than what most apps are

00:23:59 ◼   ► displaying most of the time

00:24:01 ◼   ► so this can be used to a

00:24:03 ◼   ► useful effect like I do think

00:24:05 ◼   ► the Siri animation being

00:24:07 ◼   ► brighter than than 100% you

00:24:09 ◼   ► know like that helps it jump

00:24:11 ◼   ► out and and show like okay

00:24:12 ◼   ► this is a different level of

00:24:13 ◼   ► the system that that is above

00:24:15 ◼   ► what everything else is going

00:24:17 ◼   ► on my screen I also think it

00:24:19 ◼   ► it's yet another way though

00:24:21 ◼   ► like as they're expanding it

00:24:22 ◼   ► now into a lot of these like

00:24:23 ◼   ► you know glass effects that

00:24:24 ◼   ► we can use but we can't

00:24:25 ◼   ► really necessarily you know

00:24:27 ◼   ► customize or make our own

00:24:28 ◼   ► that what that will do is

00:24:31 ◼   ► that will make apps that use

00:24:33 ◼   ► the stock controls stand out

00:24:36 ◼   ► even more than using custom

00:24:37 ◼   ► controls now as talked about

00:24:40 ◼   ► with the introduction of this

00:24:41 ◼   ► stuff the developer ecosystem

00:24:43 ◼   ► around you know custom designs

00:24:45 ◼   ► right now Apple is basically

00:24:47 ◼   ► like putting out putting a

00:24:49 ◼   ► shot out there that says

00:24:50 ◼   ► like look we're gonna make

00:24:51 ◼   ► some really cool stuff and if

00:24:53 ◼   ► you use our stock controls

00:24:54 ◼   ► mostly unmodified your stuff

00:24:57 ◼   ► will look like our stuff and

00:24:58 ◼   ► it'll look cool and it'll look

00:24:59 ◼   ► different and now it'll look

00:25:00 ◼   ► even you know even better with

00:25:02 ◼   ► these like little you know

00:25:02 ◼   ► little specular highlights on

00:25:03 ◼   ► the edges of glass and stuff

00:25:04 ◼   ► that are even brighter than what

00:25:05 ◼   ► you can do in your app very

00:25:06 ◼   ► easily but that's not what most

00:25:09 ◼   ► apps do most apps are made by

00:25:10 ◼   ► big companies who want all

00:25:11 ◼   ► their apps look the same and

00:25:12 ◼   ► they use something like

00:25:13 ◼   ► electron or you know some

00:25:14 ◼   ► kind of cross-platform toolkits

00:25:16 ◼   ► and stuff so that all their

00:25:17 ◼   ► apps you know look the same

00:25:18 ◼   ► everywhere and the same on the

00:25:19 ◼   ► web and everything is flat and

00:25:21 ◼   ► everything will look old

00:25:21 ◼   ► forever after this that's the

00:25:24 ◼   ► ecosystem they're playing into

00:25:25 ◼   ► so I think it's really it's it's

00:25:27 ◼   ► a bold move and it's it might

00:25:30 ◼   ► be a little bit of hubris but I

00:25:31 ◼   ► think it's kind of in the best

00:25:32 ◼   ► way that like Apple is gonna be

00:25:34 ◼   ► like you know what if you want

00:25:35 ◼   ► to do your own custom thing good

00:25:37 ◼   ► it's gonna look drab and flat

00:25:40 ◼   ► compared to what we are doing

00:25:41 ◼   ► it's an interesting you know

00:25:44 ◼   ► carrot to bring people over to

00:25:45 ◼   ► using stock controls I don't

00:25:48 ◼   ► think it will work for big

00:25:49 ◼   ► companies at all I don't think

00:25:51 ◼   ► the big companies care I don't

00:25:52 ◼   ► even know how much Apple cares

00:25:53 ◼   ► about them caring but I think

00:25:55 ◼   ► for for you know for the built-in

00:25:57 ◼   ► apps and for developers who use

00:26:00 ◼   ► the built-in you know UI widgets in

00:26:03 ◼   ► a less customized way I think it'll

00:26:05 ◼   ► be a nice little polish and it'll

00:26:06 ◼   ► it'll make our apps stand out

00:26:07 ◼   ► even more for the for those of

00:26:09 ◼   ► us who do you know stick to the

00:26:10 ◼   ► stick to the stock stuff I feel

00:26:13 ◼   ► like it's kind of like using

00:26:14 ◼   ► exclamation point important in a

00:26:15 ◼   ► CSS document in style sheets

00:26:18 ◼   ► that's a way for you to get a

00:26:20 ◼   ► property to take precedence over

00:26:22 ◼   ► one that would otherwise override

00:26:23 ◼   ► it due to like selector

00:26:24 ◼   ► specificity or something but you

00:26:26 ◼   ► only get one of those you get

00:26:28 ◼   ► one exclamation point important

00:26:29 ◼   ► there's no like exclamation point

00:26:31 ◼   ► important X2 X3 X4 all those I'm

00:26:34 ◼   ► sure there's CSS acts to get that

00:26:35 ◼   ► so the analogy may not be

00:26:37 ◼   ► perfect but anyway how many

00:26:39 ◼   ► chances do you get to say now

00:26:42 ◼   ► there's a new layer of the UI and

00:26:44 ◼   ► we're going to make that one

00:26:45 ◼   ► brighter probably only the one or

00:26:48 ◼   ► maybe two because there's only so

00:26:50 ◼   ► much of a brightness delta that

00:26:52 ◼   ► eyes can comfortably tolerate and

00:26:54 ◼   ► it's great that screens are getting

00:26:55 ◼   ► brighter but they're still kind of

00:26:57 ◼   ► like the regular brightness and

00:26:58 ◼   ► then the maximum brightness and

00:27:00 ◼   ► may like I said maybe you go with

00:27:01 ◼   ► the regular brightness a medium

00:27:02 ◼   ► one and then the highest one if we

00:27:04 ◼   ► get something and do like 4000 nits

00:27:05 ◼   ► on a phone or something but I'm

00:27:07 ◼   ► not sure that's the best way to add

00:27:11 ◼   ► emphasis to a user interface it is

00:27:14 ◼   ► possible to make a visual and

00:27:17 ◼   ► functional and conceptual hierarchy

00:27:19 ◼   ► without relying on large brightness

00:27:23 ◼   ► deltas as a differentiator I'm not

00:27:25 ◼   ► saying it's a bad idea to do it but I

00:27:26 ◼   ► am saying that Apple should you know

00:27:29 ◼   ► think twice about making this a

00:27:32 ◼   ► foundation of its visual hierarchy I

00:27:34 ◼   ► think it's fine for like we have a

00:27:35 ◼   ► new design and this is a flourish that

00:27:37 ◼   ► we can add to it but you really don't

00:27:39 ◼   ► like they like this is why I keep

00:27:40 ◼   ► going back to dollar sign important

00:27:41 ◼   ► you really can't only get to do this

00:27:42 ◼   ► once and you should maybe for the

00:27:46 ◼   ► next big redesign I guess you could

00:27:47 ◼   ► keep doing this but maybe it's better

00:27:49 ◼   ► to think of another way to show this

00:27:52 ◼   ► layering again we've done it in

00:27:54 ◼   ► computer interfaces for years and

00:27:56 ◼   ► years without HDR so it's you know

00:27:58 ◼   ► now that we have HDR this is another

00:27:59 ◼   ► tool that we can put in the tool belt

00:28:00 ◼   ► but I feel kind of like this is a an

00:28:02 ◼   ► exuberant explosion based on like well

00:28:06 ◼   ► now we have this new tool in our

00:28:07 ◼   ► quiver we've never had this before we

00:28:08 ◼   ► can use HDR to differentiate things

00:28:10 ◼   ► differentiate things in the

00:28:11 ◼   ► interface it's not great for battery

00:28:13 ◼   ► life it is sometimes a little bit

00:28:15 ◼   ► jarring I think it will be fun in the

00:28:17 ◼   ► short term but I hope this does not

00:28:19 ◼   ► last more than 10 years this is the

00:28:22 ◼   ► mindset I'm like probably only have to

00:28:24 ◼   ► worry about this for like 10 years

00:28:25 ◼   ► it'll be okay yeah if Apple still

00:28:26 ◼   ► around then which it probably will be

00:28:28 ◼   ► so I'm not a giant fan of this I think

00:28:30 ◼   ► it will be fun for a short period of

00:28:31 ◼   ► time but I think there are better ways

00:28:34 ◼   ► to do what it's trying to do with

00:28:36 ◼   ► regard to iPad OS 26 John Edwards

00:28:39 ◼   ► right my hypothesis on the 12 window

00:28:42 ◼   ► limit in iPad OS 26 is that it is a

00:28:44 ◼   ► safeguard against unresponsiveness on

00:28:46 ◼   ► the Mac if the window server stops

00:28:48 ◼   ► responding you can still move the mouse

00:28:49 ◼   ► cursor itself around even if it's

00:28:51 ◼   ► beach balling which is an indicator that

00:28:52 ◼   ► the system isn't completely hosed if

00:28:55 ◼   ► window drag is slow like John

00:28:56 ◼   ► encountered when more than one user

00:28:58 ◼   ► was logged in a few months back too

00:29:00 ◼   ► soon too soon the cursor stays locked

00:29:02 ◼   ► to the drag it just feels like pulling

00:29:04 ◼   ► the window through molasses on a

00:29:06 ◼   ► touch-first device there's no

00:29:07 ◼   ► guaranteed analogous affordance if

00:29:09 ◼   ► the windows on screen aren't

00:29:11 ◼   ► responsive to touch the system feels

00:29:12 ◼   ► broken as Marco pointed out even on

00:29:14 ◼   ► the latest and greatest iPhone

00:29:15 ◼   ► hardware liquid glass and the overall

00:29:16 ◼   ► performance of the current beta feel

00:29:17 ◼   ► slow beginning with the last few

00:29:19 ◼   ► releases of iOS 18 my iPhone mini

00:29:21 ◼   ► locks up in Apple's own apps and

00:29:22 ◼   ► becomes unresponsive to touch I can

00:29:24 ◼   ► tell you from firsthand experience

00:29:25 ◼   ► that this behavior sucks this is an

00:29:27 ◼   ► answer that Federighi and others

00:29:28 ◼   ► actually gave when asked the same

00:29:30 ◼   ► question I forgot the timing on this

00:29:31 ◼   ► one know whether John Edwards said

00:29:32 ◼   ► this before those interviews were

00:29:33 ◼   ► released or after or if he'd seen

00:29:35 ◼   ► them or not but either way we're like

00:29:37 ◼   ► they weren't talking about the 12

00:29:38 ◼   ► window limit which they didn't talk

00:29:39 ◼   ► about too much where they were

00:29:39 ◼   ► mostly talking about like why is it

00:29:41 ◼   ► taking so long to get windowing on

00:29:43 ◼   ► iOS and they gave the power as a

00:29:45 ◼   ► possible thing and then we talked

00:29:46 ◼   ► about the 12 window limit and said

00:29:47 ◼   ► well maybe that's why they're doing it

00:29:48 ◼   ► because as Federighi said in his

00:29:50 ◼   ► interviews like we want it to always be

00:29:51 ◼   ► responsive to touch because if it

00:29:53 ◼   ► isn't it feels broken and I'm here

00:29:56 ◼   ► to say the Mac also feels broken when

00:29:59 ◼   ► stuff stops working I know what he's

00:30:00 ◼   ► saying about like oh but like if the

00:30:01 ◼   ► drag is slow both the cursor that the

00:30:04 ◼   ► mouse is controlling and the place

00:30:05 ◼   ► where it is on the title bar will stay

00:30:07 ◼   ► together so it'll be slow together it

00:30:09 ◼   ► still feels awful first of all and

00:30:10 ◼   ► second of all there are plenty of

00:30:12 ◼   ► ways that the Mac OS can and has

00:30:14 ◼   ► locked up such that you can't drag

00:30:17 ◼   ► windows or the mouse doesn't move

00:30:19 ◼   ► anymore if you look back to the classic

00:30:21 ◼   ► Mac OS days and even if that's not

00:30:24 ◼   ► true even if like oh I'm as long as

00:30:26 ◼   ► the the cursor stays on the thing I'm

00:30:27 ◼   ► dragging I'm fine that it's updating

00:30:29 ◼   ► at three frames every 10 seconds no

00:30:31 ◼   ► you're not fine it feels totally

00:30:32 ◼   ► broken like there are just so many

00:30:33 ◼   ► ways or like the beach ball the beach

00:30:35 ◼   ► ball appears and now you can't click

00:30:37 ◼   ► anything you're like well these the

00:30:38 ◼   ► beach ball is still spinning I guess

00:30:39 ◼   ► the computer is all right no so this

00:30:41 ◼   ► notion that like and Federighi was

00:30:42 ◼   ► pointing out it's like well these touch

00:30:43 ◼   ► devices they always have to feel

00:30:45 ◼   ► responsive the Mac should also

00:30:46 ◼   ► always be responsive why is the bar

00:30:48 ◼   ► lower from the Mac like when terrible

00:30:50 ◼   ► things happen to the Mac user

00:30:51 ◼   ► interface it also feels terrible it's

00:30:53 ◼   ► not like we're fooled by like well

00:30:54 ◼   ► it's just a Mac it's fine if this

00:30:55 ◼   ► was an iPad I'd be annoyed and so I

00:30:58 ◼   ► you know there's I don't think this

00:30:59 ◼   ► is a you know I was discussing past

00:31:02 ◼   ► episodes about exactly how much power

00:31:04 ◼   ► modern iPads have compared to Macs

00:31:06 ◼   ► that ran Mac OS 10 with no window

00:31:07 ◼   ► limit on them I still feel like the

00:31:09 ◼   ► main reason for the limit has to be

00:31:11 ◼   ► either RAM limits and their refusal to

00:31:13 ◼   ► go to swap without a again I don't

00:31:15 ◼   ► know the details of what the

00:31:16 ◼   ► situation is like or just the plain

00:31:18 ◼   ► fact is it's a small screen and

00:31:20 ◼   ► they're trying to keep it simple I do

00:31:21 ◼   ► wonder if this limit will increase as

00:31:24 ◼   ► as time marches on but you know 10

00:31:26 ◼   ► years from now when iPads come with

00:31:28 ◼   ► 64 gigs of RAM standard to be like

00:31:29 ◼   ► well they can't handle more than 12

00:31:30 ◼   ► windows and to be like really Mac

00:31:32 ◼   ► was 10 ran 128 megabytes but this 32

00:31:34 ◼   ► gig RAM iPad Pro can't have more than

00:31:36 ◼   ► 12 windows on screen at once so that's

00:31:38 ◼   ► iPad OS for you it's moved by leaps

00:31:42 ◼   ► and bounds this year but it is still

00:31:44 ◼   ► holding itself back from being the

00:31:46 ◼   ► unlimited bonanza that is Mac OS for

00:31:49 ◼   ► some good reasons because again that's

00:31:51 ◼   ► the selling proposition it is simpler

00:31:52 ◼   ► it has it gives you less ability to get

00:31:55 ◼   ► yourself into trouble and making lots

00:31:56 ◼   ► of one windows is one way you can do

00:31:58 ◼   ► that but 12 feels weird and somewhat

00:32:01 ◼   ► arbitrary maybe in iPad OS 27 we'll get

00:32:04 ◼   ► a baker's dozen Wow all right then

00:32:08 ◼   ► John you had asked for not really asked

00:32:10 ◼   ► for but had talked about the idea of a

00:32:12 ◼   ► glass iPhone can you recap what that

00:32:14 ◼   ► was about please yeah listener actually

00:32:15 ◼   ► sent this in we were talking about

00:32:16 ◼   ► like the rumors of liquid glass and the

00:32:18 ◼   ► rumors of like using the the light

00:32:20 ◼   ► sensors or the camera to figure out

00:32:21 ◼   ► where the glint should be on the UI this

00:32:23 ◼   ► is back when we just had the rumors of

00:32:24 ◼   ► what it's supposed to look like we

00:32:25 ◼   ► didn't know yet and the listener wrote

00:32:26 ◼   ► it and said well you know I'm also

00:32:29 ◼   ► talking about it making an OS that

00:32:30 ◼   ► would fit for the rumored all glass

00:32:32 ◼   ► iPhone and the rumors the patent they

00:32:33 ◼   ► had for making a thing literally

00:32:34 ◼   ► entirely out of glass including the

00:32:36 ◼   ► case the front the back everything

00:32:38 ◼   ► just all glass and Alyssa wrote and

00:32:40 ◼   ► say well you could have a the

00:32:42 ◼   ► equivalent of that today if you just

00:32:44 ◼   ► turned on the back camera and had the

00:32:46 ◼   ► back camera show what was behind the

00:32:48 ◼   ► phone on the phone screen so when you

00:32:50 ◼   ► were looking at your phone any area

00:32:52 ◼   ► that wasn't content you'd see quote

00:32:54 ◼   ► unquote through the phone to

00:32:55 ◼   ► whatever's behind it and guess what

00:32:57 ◼   ► somebody did it artisanal asparagus

00:33:00 ◼   ► water on Mastodon has a cool demo movie

00:33:04 ◼   ► they just mocked up an app doing this

00:33:06 ◼   ► exact thing which is turn on the back

00:33:09 ◼   ► camera and show the image but then put

00:33:10 ◼   ► some UI on top of it it's really hard

00:33:12 ◼   ► to do this you know this makes you

00:33:14 ◼   ► appreciate Vision Pro but also

00:33:15 ◼   ► understand why Vision Pro has to

00:33:16 ◼   ► strap itself to your face you can't

00:33:19 ◼   ► actually do this press in a

00:33:21 ◼   ► perspective correct way without

00:33:22 ◼   ► knowing where your eyes are all the

00:33:24 ◼   ► time so the illusion is broken if you

00:33:26 ◼   ► were not lined up it's kind of like

00:33:28 ◼   ► the what are called the volume that

00:33:30 ◼   ► big LED screen that wraps around

00:33:33 ◼   ► actors that they use at IOM to do

00:33:35 ◼   ► like the Mandalorian and a bunch of

00:33:36 ◼   ► other shows that only looks good from

00:33:38 ◼   ► the perspective of the camera if

00:33:40 ◼   ► you're standing not where the camera

00:33:41 ◼   ► is the background looks all wonky

00:33:43 ◼   ► same deal with this like it does it's

00:33:45 ◼   ► not perspective correct but anyway if

00:33:46 ◼   ► you want to see what that looks like

00:33:47 ◼   ► there's a video we will link it in the

00:33:48 ◼   ► show notes kudos to artisanal

00:33:50 ◼   ► asparagus water for mocking this up

00:33:52 ◼   ► also like isn't it weird if you're

00:33:55 ◼   ► simulating the idea of the phone being

00:33:57 ◼   ► transparent isn't it weird that you

00:33:58 ◼   ► don't see your hand yeah I mean well

00:34:01 ◼   ► they don't have a camera they can

00:34:02 ◼   ► show that but they could they could

00:34:03 ◼   ► do a 3d model of the hand like they

00:34:04 ◼   ► do like the what are you the

00:34:05 ◼   ► personas there you go see you can't

00:34:08 ◼   ► see your face but we you just put

00:34:09 ◼   ► your hand in front of it'll model your

00:34:10 ◼   ► hand and then yeah it'll show your

00:34:12 ◼   ► fingers yeah we scanned your hand and

00:34:13 ◼   ► now here is a hand that looks almost

00:34:14 ◼   ► like your hands nobody will notice

00:34:16 ◼   ► probably asterisk and then finally for

00:34:19 ◼   ► tonight Joseph Humphrey writes the

00:34:21 ◼   ► name of the app you mentioned in an

00:34:23 ◼   ► earlier episode that can translate

00:34:24 ◼   ► natural language terminal commands is

00:34:26 ◼   ► sub stage and it's made by me who

00:34:29 ◼   ► Joseph self self proclaims himself as

00:34:31 ◼   ► friend of the show Joseph Humphrey to

00:34:34 ◼   ► be honest that's not really how that

00:34:35 ◼   ► works but I appreciate the hustle to be

00:34:37 ◼   ► honest I get where you're coming from

00:34:38 ◼   ► when you express doubts about using it

00:34:40 ◼   ► as I was saying to my wife the other

00:34:41 ◼   ► day if someone else other than myself

00:34:42 ◼   ► had made the app I genuinely don't

00:34:44 ◼   ► know if I'd trust it and want to

00:34:45 ◼   ► install it either the thing that makes

00:34:47 ◼   ► the difference for me is that one I

00:34:48 ◼   ► made it so I know exactly what it's

00:34:49 ◼   ► doing and two I added risk assessment

00:34:51 ◼   ► as a feature so it assesses commands

00:34:53 ◼   ► instead of blindly running them and

00:34:55 ◼   ► three you can inspect and edit the

00:34:56 ◼   ► commands before running them too I'm

00:34:58 ◼   ► also always finding new use cases

00:35:00 ◼   ► daily that let me do things that I'm

00:35:01 ◼   ► not sure I'd even think to do with

00:35:03 ◼   ► chat GPT just because sub stage is

00:35:05 ◼   ► right there for example my most

00:35:07 ◼   ► recently quote trim the sides of this

00:35:09 ◼   ► video to make it 16 by 10 instead of

00:35:12 ◼   ► 16 by 9 quote something like that

00:35:14 ◼   ► would be a huge faff I guess this is a

00:35:16 ◼   ► Brit in after effects and I'm not sure

00:35:18 ◼   ► how how long I'd have to poke around

00:35:20 ◼   ► and handbrake to figure out whether

00:35:22 ◼   ► it's even possible or not there I did

00:35:24 ◼   ► actually I have like I said I have

00:35:25 ◼   ► this app and saw I couldn't remember

00:35:26 ◼   ► the name of it at the time so I wanted

00:35:28 ◼   ► to put this in here so to tell people

00:35:29 ◼   ► what it was called and I have actually

00:35:31 ◼   ► used it recently I don't use it much

00:35:32 ◼   ► because like I said on the show I'm a

00:35:33 ◼   ► little nervous about even assessing the

00:35:36 ◼   ► commands myself by looking at them

00:35:37 ◼   ► like it's just I don't know it's but

00:35:39 ◼   ► anyway I had occasion I forget what I

00:35:41 ◼   ► was using it for but it was something

00:35:42 ◼   ► very straightforward that I trusted it

00:35:44 ◼   ► to do and I you know it was it was

00:35:47 ◼   ► faster than going to my web browser

00:35:49 ◼   ► window that or it was already open to

00:35:51 ◼   ► Gemini or chat GPT or something and

00:35:53 ◼   ► asking it the ffmpeg command and then

00:35:54 ◼   ► copying and pasting it sub stage does

00:35:57 ◼   ► what you wanted to do which is let me

00:36:00 ◼   ► just do all that for you right here

00:36:01 ◼   ► you know in the finder right click the

00:36:04 ◼   ► thing or you know invoke the command or

00:36:05 ◼   ► whatever and then just tell me what

00:36:08 ◼   ► you want I'll do it right here so it's

00:36:09 ◼   ► it's cutting out steps and in the same

00:36:11 ◼   ► way that a lot of these LMs save you

00:36:14 ◼   ► time by doing something that you would

00:36:16 ◼   ► have to do a bunch of web searches for

00:36:18 ◼   ► first they'll just do it right in the

00:36:19 ◼   ► window you can get even faster by

00:36:21 ◼   ► having it integrated directly and the

00:36:22 ◼   ► chat GPT app for mac os does very

00:36:25 ◼   ► similar things but it unfortunately

00:36:27 ◼   ► does not run an Intel Mac so I'm not

00:36:29 ◼   ► running it on my main machine so I don't

00:36:31 ◼   ► get a chance to use it we are sponsored

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00:38:31 ◼   ► all right there was a rumor that broke a

00:38:37 ◼   ► few days ago Apple is planning this

00:38:39 ◼   ► reading from Mac rumors Apple is planning

00:38:41 ◼   ► to launch a low-cost MacBook powered by

00:38:43 ◼   ► an iPhone chip according to Apple

00:38:44 ◼   ► analyst Ming-Chi Kuo in an article

00:38:47 ◼   ► published on X quote complain explain not

00:38:49 ◼   ► complain explain that the device will

00:38:51 ◼   ► feature a 13-inch display and the a18

00:38:54 ◼   ► pro chip making it the first Mac powered

00:38:56 ◼   ► by an iPhone chip the a18 pro chip

00:38:58 ◼   ► debuted in the iPhone 16 pro last year

00:39:00 ◼   ► the more affordable MacBook could come

00:39:02 ◼   ► in silver blue pink and yellow finishes

00:39:04 ◼   ► the new MacBook is expected to hear

00:39:07 ◼   ► Eric to enter mass production late in

00:39:09 ◼   ► the fourth quarter of 2025 or early in

00:39:11 ◼   ► the first quarter of 2026 Apple's

00:39:13 ◼   ► hoping that it will drive MacBook

00:39:14 ◼   ► purchases and account for 20 to 28% of

00:39:16 ◼   ► sales next year additionally a different

00:39:19 ◼   ► post on Mac rumors Mac rumors has

00:39:20 ◼   ► spotted evidence of such a device in

00:39:22 ◼   ► back-end code related to Apple

00:39:24 ◼   ► intelligence last summer and

00:39:25 ◼   ► subsequently confirmed its use of the

00:39:26 ◼   ► a18 pro chip the machine features the

00:39:29 ◼   ► identifier Mac 17 comma 1 so I will talk

00:39:33 ◼   ► about this rumor for in more detail in a

00:39:35 ◼   ► second but the headline here I believe

00:39:38 ◼   ► this is straight from Mac rumors also from

00:39:39 ◼   ► the story yes straight from Ming-Chi Kuo

00:39:41 ◼   ► low-cost is the adjective modifier on

00:39:45 ◼   ► this MacBook Apple is planning to launch a

00:39:47 ◼   ► low-cost MacBook and the only thing we

00:39:50 ◼   ► know about this other than the size of

00:39:51 ◼   ► the screen which is the same as the

00:39:52 ◼   ► current 13 inch MacBook Air and some

00:39:55 ◼   ► colors is that it comes with a phone

00:39:57 ◼   ► chip how much cheaper do you think the

00:40:01 ◼   ► a18 pro is than the m4 hmm not that

00:40:07 ◼   ► much I can't imagine I mean I think it's

00:40:09 ◼   ► cheap I agree that it's probably

00:40:10 ◼   ► cheaper not the least of which is

00:40:11 ◼   ► because they make a bazillion of them

00:40:12 ◼   ► because it's a phone chip and it is

00:40:14 ◼   ► physically smaller so just by going by

00:40:16 ◼   ► the math of like die area like the

00:40:18 ◼   ► bigger you make the chip the more

00:40:19 ◼   ► expensive it is it makes sense to me

00:40:21 ◼   ► that it would be cheaper but I don't

00:40:24 ◼   ► especially on low-end devices I don't

00:40:28 ◼   ► think the SoC is usually the most

00:40:30 ◼   ► expensive component in the machine and

00:40:34 ◼   ► the prices involved here especially since

00:40:36 ◼   ► Apple isn't paying somebody else's

00:40:37 ◼   ► profit margins other than TSMC's on these

00:40:40 ◼   ► chips like I'm thinking like maybe like

00:40:45 ◼   ► 50 bucks 30 bucks less expensive like do

00:40:50 ◼   ► you think that's the ballpark yeah I'm

00:40:52 ◼   ► guessing it is I'm guessing the price

00:40:54 ◼   ► difference is less than a hundred

00:40:55 ◼   ► dollars yeah and so this rumor is that

00:40:58 ◼   ► it's a low-cost MacBook now you you know

00:41:01 ◼   ► we'll get to what Marco has here in a

00:41:03 ◼   ► second you save money lots of different

00:41:04 ◼   ► places but I haven't seen anyone really

00:41:06 ◼   ► mention this is like wow a low-cost you

00:41:09 ◼   ► know a cheaper computer would be a great

00:41:11 ◼   ► idea and you could use a phone chip in

00:41:13 ◼   ► it and that would make it cheaper and

00:41:15 ◼   ► this is great I'm like okay but if that

00:41:16 ◼   ► was the only difference if it's the M4

00:41:18 ◼   ► MacBook Air with the M4 swapped out for

00:41:21 ◼   ► the A18 Pro I'm thinking best case

00:41:25 ◼   ► scenario this is a hundred dollar cheaper

00:41:27 ◼   ► computer which is not nothing because

00:41:28 ◼   ► the thing is a thousand dollars so if you

00:41:29 ◼   ► have one for nine hundred dollars like

00:41:30 ◼   ► that's good but is that enough to

00:41:34 ◼   ► justify this thing's existence or does

00:41:35 ◼   ► this replace the M4 MacBook Air well I

00:41:37 ◼   ► think the the even if it is only 50 or

00:41:40 ◼   ► hundred dollars different cost to Apple

00:41:43 ◼   ► when you multiply that a million times

00:41:46 ◼   ► two million times five million times

00:41:47 ◼   ► that adds up real quick and so I don't

00:41:49 ◼   ► think you're wrong but it wouldn't

00:41:50 ◼   ► surprise me if they wanted to go after

00:41:52 ◼   ► what seems to be a not very large Delta

00:41:54 ◼   ► just because on the scale in which they

00:41:57 ◼   ► operate that can make a huge difference

00:41:58 ◼   ► yeah so that leads to to Marco's idea

00:42:01 ◼   ► for a game here what could be removed or

00:42:04 ◼   ► limited to make this cheaper than a

00:42:06 ◼   ► MacBook Air other than obviously the

00:42:08 ◼   ► A18 Pro versus the M4 so let's just

00:42:11 ◼   ► that just take that as a given because

00:42:12 ◼   ► all the rumors seem to agree that

00:42:13 ◼   ► that's that's the deal with this

00:42:15 ◼   ► including Mac rumors finding a thing

00:42:17 ◼   ► that seemed to identify that chip

00:42:19 ◼   ► number so we've swapped out the M4 for

00:42:21 ◼   ► the A18 Pro how else do you get money

00:42:23 ◼   ► out of this machine let's let's do a

00:42:26 ◼   ► round robin and everyone and you got to

00:42:28 ◼   ► pick you know like a giraffe like until

00:42:30 ◼   ► we don't we run out of things that we

00:42:31 ◼   ► can think of yeah because I have a list

00:42:33 ◼   ► here of like remote the keyboard some

00:42:34 ◼   ► of them are pretty crazy and and you

00:42:36 ◼   ► know and just for context all right the

00:42:38 ◼   ► MacBook Air currently starts at a

00:42:39 ◼   ► thousand dollars isn't like a 900 for

00:42:42 ◼   ► education or something yes something like

00:42:43 ◼   ► that and then there's the Walmart M1

00:42:46 ◼   ► MacBook Air still for sale for 650 yeah

00:42:49 ◼   ► also for reference the cheapest iPad

00:42:52 ◼   ► they sell is 350 and it has a 250

00:42:57 ◼   ► keyboard option so a combined if you want

00:42:59 ◼   ► the cheapest iPad with their keyboard and

00:43:02 ◼   ► trackpad that go with it it's six

00:43:04 ◼   ► hundred dollars and what what chip does

00:43:06 ◼   ► that one come with that's the a 17 I

00:43:08 ◼   ► believe so that so the base model iPad

00:43:11 ◼   ► currently for sale does not run Apple

00:43:13 ◼   ► intelligence the iPad mini has the 17

00:43:16 ◼   ► pro so it can but that's more expensive

00:43:19 ◼   ► but so just the cheapest iPad they make

00:43:21 ◼   ► and I think you can look at some of the

00:43:24 ◼   ► things they do with that cheap iPad to

00:43:26 ◼   ► get that iPad down to 350 without the

00:43:27 ◼   ► keyboard and I think we're looking at a

00:43:30 ◼   ► similar likely product here now obviously a

00:43:35 ◼   ► laptop requires a keyboard and a trackpad

00:43:37 ◼   ► so I'm guessing I'm guessing this laptop

00:43:41 ◼   ► includes you know it the rumor already

00:43:44 ◼   ► says a 13 inch screen so a 13 inch screen

00:43:46 ◼   ► keyboard and trackpad now the details on

00:43:49 ◼   ► those can matter so who'd like to go

00:43:50 ◼   ► first I'll go first and this is the thing

00:43:53 ◼   ► that I hope they don't do I seriously

00:43:55 ◼   ► hope they don't do but you can't rule it

00:43:58 ◼   ► out remove RAM

00:43:59 ◼   ► at the Apple 8 gigs Apple just bumped all

00:44:03 ◼   ► of its max 16 gigs and we celebrated how

00:44:06 ◼   ► can Apple screw that up you know how oh our

00:44:08 ◼   ► new low-cost model and of course because

00:44:09 ◼   ► it's the lowest cost model only comes to

00:44:11 ◼   ► the 8 gigs I really hope they don't do

00:44:12 ◼   ► that but that would save them at least

00:44:14 ◼   ► five dollars yeah and look when you're

00:44:17 ◼   ► trying to hit a low probably because you

00:44:19 ◼   ► know like you know you look at the maybe

00:44:21 ◼   ► they're trying to replace the Walmart

00:44:22 ◼   ► MacBook Air like and to with like a newer

00:44:25 ◼   ► product that can actually run Apple

00:44:26 ◼   ► intelligence and that they can you know

00:44:27 ◼   ► keep making new models of over time but

00:44:31 ◼   ► still so like if they're trying to come in

00:44:33 ◼   ► around you know 650 600 700 range they're

00:44:38 ◼   ► gonna have to cut a decent amount of stuff

00:44:40 ◼   ► because here's the one thing they will

00:44:42 ◼   ► never cut is margin you know that Apple

00:44:44 ◼   ► will never cut margin so they're gonna

00:44:47 ◼   ► make the same margins they're making on

00:44:49 ◼   ► that $1,000 MacBook Air so how how do

00:44:53 ◼   ► they get there how do they shave off like

00:44:55 ◼   ► a third of the price well one of you go

00:44:57 ◼   ► so I did Ram what's the next one Casey

00:44:59 ◼   ► what about the the fidelity and of the

00:45:03 ◼   ► display and I don't just mean going

00:45:05 ◼   ► non-retina worse well no I'm serious

00:45:08 ◼   ► like not even just non-retina but what

00:45:10 ◼   ► if the backlight gets worse and weaker

00:45:12 ◼   ► what it only does RNG not be hey that's

00:45:15 ◼   ► it you got it save savings of one-third

00:45:18 ◼   ► no like a like a crummier backlight or

00:45:20 ◼   ► again maybe non-retina I would be stunned

00:45:23 ◼   ► if they went non-retina but it is a

00:45:24 ◼   ► possibility you have to pick you have to

00:45:26 ◼   ► pick one I wouldn't go with non-retina

00:45:28 ◼   ► but a cheaper screen yeah like and I'm

00:45:30 ◼   ► specifically thinking about like you know

00:45:31 ◼   ► one of the things they tout in the

00:45:33 ◼   ► MacBook Pros is oh it's 11 billion nits

00:45:36 ◼   ► well what if this is three nits right to

00:45:39 ◼   ► speak you know well the current MacBook

00:45:41 ◼   ► Air screen and the M1 MacBook Air

00:45:43 ◼   ► screen are also already worse this could be

00:45:46 ◼   ► you know one thing to consider is that

00:45:47 ◼   ► that cheap iPad lacks P3 wide color and an

00:45:53 ◼   ► AR coating anti-reflective coating yeah when

00:45:55 ◼   ► you get down to these low-end screens it's

00:45:57 ◼   ► difficult to like but yeah cheaper screen

00:45:59 ◼   ► is yeah is reasonable but I think I think

00:46:01 ◼   ► the way they would do that would not be

00:46:02 ◼   ► resolution because resolution is not that

00:46:04 ◼   ► expensive these days like I think it would

00:46:06 ◼   ► be no display P3 but should probably save

00:46:08 ◼   ► them on some you know calibration also and

00:46:11 ◼   ► you know some certain like you know chip

00:46:12 ◼   ► support good call so no P3 and then you know

00:46:15 ◼   ► different coatings or enclosure so maybe it

00:46:17 ◼   ► doesn't have the AR coating because again

00:46:18 ◼   ► like that's what they did to make that

00:46:20 ◼   ► cheap iPad screen well the thing about

00:46:22 ◼   ► screens and a cheaper screen is that given

00:46:25 ◼   ► the age of like let's just say again the

00:46:27 ◼   ► M1 MacBook Air given the age of that

00:46:29 ◼   ► machine at a certain point or even just

00:46:32 ◼   ► the M4 one like the cost of the the screen

00:46:35 ◼   ► that's in the M4 MacBook Air is going down

00:46:38 ◼   ► all the time because it is so old and just

00:46:40 ◼   ► like so far away from the cutting edge it's

00:46:43 ◼   ► kind of like I don't know this shows a name

00:46:44 ◼   ► for this parts curve but like we've joked

00:46:46 ◼   ► about it many times in the past but it's a

00:46:47 ◼   ► real thing something that's like older

00:46:49 ◼   ► technology gets cheaper and cheaper as

00:46:51 ◼   ► it's supplanted by newer technologies but

00:46:53 ◼   ► then all of a sudden it starts getting more

00:46:54 ◼   ► expensive again because it's so old that

00:46:55 ◼   ► nobody wants it and people stop making it

00:46:57 ◼   ► and I do wonder if Apple walks that line

00:46:59 ◼   ► with their screens but like yeah they get

00:47:01 ◼   ► cheap because the the the machine they sell

00:47:04 ◼   ► doesn't get cheaper and cheaper over time

00:47:06 ◼   ► but the parts that go into it do and so I do

00:47:08 ◼   ► wonder if when the a18 pro MacBook whatever

00:47:12 ◼   ► comes out it might have a better screen

00:47:14 ◼   ► than the M1 MacBook Air simply because you

00:47:16 ◼   ► can't buy screens that are as bad as the

00:47:18 ◼   ► MacBook Air anymore and it will still be

00:47:20 ◼   ► cheaper just like Casey saying it will

00:47:22 ◼   ► actually be a cheaper screen than the M1

00:47:24 ◼   ► MacBook Air screen was when that machine

00:47:26 ◼   ► was introduced but now a cheaper screen

00:47:28 ◼   ► actually ends up better so that I could

00:47:30 ◼   ► see them saving costs there Marco what's

00:47:32 ◼   ► your what's your pick all right my my I have

00:47:35 ◼   ► a lot of others but my first pick is you

00:47:37 ◼   ► got to think like in addition to using

00:47:40 ◼   ► the low-end iPad as inspiration for some

00:47:42 ◼   ► of these changes you also got to think

00:47:44 ◼   ► how do they keep people who just want the

00:47:47 ◼   ► cheapest MacBook who from buying this

00:47:50 ◼   ► instead of like they want to preserve

00:47:52 ◼   ► MacBook Air sales to no SSD so how do

00:47:56 ◼   ► they most importantly how do they keep

00:47:59 ◼   ► businesses from buying this one they want

00:48:02 ◼   ► businesses to keep buying the Airs and

00:48:03 ◼   ► the pros so my number one pick is no

00:48:07 ◼   ► external monitor support and also think

00:48:11 ◼   ► about it the a18 Pro probably doesn't

00:48:14 ◼   ► support external monitors it might but

00:48:16 ◼   ► yeah that's that's a good call that you

00:48:17 ◼   ► know I'd just be part of the if it's just

00:48:19 ◼   ► part of the SoC then they kind of get that

00:48:21 ◼   ► for free and it's not really a cost

00:48:22 ◼   ► savings but yeah I don't I'm not not

00:48:24 ◼   ► sure that would save them that much

00:48:26 ◼   ► money I don't know if it would save the

00:48:27 ◼   ► money but I could see them doing it on in

00:48:29 ◼   ► software because the 18 Pro absolutely

00:48:31 ◼   ► does support an external monitor because

00:48:33 ◼   ► you can do that with your phone right I

00:48:34 ◼   ► mean I'm sure I've done this yeah I think

00:48:36 ◼   ► so oh I'm pretty darn sure you can and

00:48:39 ◼   ► so I don't think that that would be a

00:48:40 ◼   ► savings but I do agree with you they

00:48:42 ◼   ► would absolutely I could see them doing

00:48:44 ◼   ► this as a feature gate just to get people

00:48:46 ◼   ► to upgrade like you had said yeah because

00:48:48 ◼   ► they they want no businesses to buy this

00:48:50 ◼   ► computer they want businesses to keep

00:48:51 ◼   ► buying the Airs and the pros all right

00:48:54 ◼   ► John I mean I don't this is kind of in

00:48:56 ◼   ► the same spirit as what you were saying

00:48:58 ◼   ► with your thing but use an existing like

00:49:01 ◼   ► use the M1 case design like I'm assuming

00:49:04 ◼   ► the M1 case design is cheaper than the

00:49:05 ◼   ► M4 one but like use a case design they've

00:49:07 ◼   ► been doing for so long that it's just

00:49:09 ◼   ► incredibly cheap for them to do that they

00:49:10 ◼   ► have all the machines to do it you know

00:49:12 ◼   ► so no new case design and it would also

00:49:14 ◼   ► differentiate it from the M5 MacBook Air

00:49:17 ◼   ► because it would literally still be the

00:49:18 ◼   ► wedge shape like that older thing so yeah

00:49:20 ◼   ► use use the M1 case design and you think

00:49:23 ◼   ► they would do that instead of making a

00:49:24 ◼   ► new cheap case oh yeah because like

00:49:26 ◼   ► mate there's no such there's no such

00:49:28 ◼   ► thing as that when it comes to cheap like

00:49:29 ◼   ► a new cheaper to make case yeah maybe

00:49:31 ◼   ► cheaper to make but the cost of of

00:49:34 ◼   ► developing that new thing it would take

00:49:36 ◼   ► a while to recoup that I've the Tim

00:49:38 ◼   ► Cook way is take some existing thing

00:49:40 ◼   ► that we've already been making for I

00:49:41 ◼   ► mean that's part of the reason the

00:49:42 ◼   ► Walmart one still uses the wedge it's

00:49:44 ◼   ► like look we already we already know how

00:49:45 ◼   ► to make that case we've mastered it we

00:49:47 ◼   ► have the machines for it and

00:49:49 ◼   ► presumably it is cheaper to make them

00:49:50 ◼   ► the newest and latest and greatest

00:49:52 ◼   ► case so yeah I think they would just

00:49:53 ◼   ► keep using that one well what if like

00:49:55 ◼   ► you know there there are cases of all

00:49:57 ◼   ► in in you know the last for a decade or

00:49:59 ◼   ► more they've all been unibody case

00:50:00 ◼   ► designs where you basically have like

00:50:02 ◼   ► you know big blocks of aluminum and

00:50:04 ◼   ► you have these machines that like carve

00:50:06 ◼   ► out sections of it a cheaper way to

00:50:09 ◼   ► make metal cases is to have them be in

00:50:11 ◼   ► different like flat sheets that are

00:50:13 ◼   ► like screwed together or something what

00:50:15 ◼   ► if like if they're actually designing a

00:50:16 ◼   ► case from scratch to be inexpensive I

00:50:19 ◼   ► would think that maybe that might

00:50:21 ◼   ► have some significant savings of going

00:50:22 ◼   ► like a multi-part case I think I know

00:50:25 ◼   ► what you're talking about because they

00:50:25 ◼   ► used to make that before the original

00:50:27 ◼   ► MacBook Air came out yeah I think

00:50:28 ◼   ► that's actually more expensive to

00:50:30 ◼   ► manufacture due to the fastening issue

00:50:33 ◼   ► like I really do feel like the M1

00:50:34 ◼   ► MacBook Air case given how slim it is

00:50:37 ◼   ► and how long they've been making it may

00:50:39 ◼   ► actually be the cheaper option cheaper

00:50:41 ◼   ► in terms of repairs even cheaper in

00:50:42 ◼   ► terms of manufacturability for all the

00:50:44 ◼   ► parts don't have to be aligned and

00:50:45 ◼   ► connected and precision made it's just

00:50:47 ◼   ► one top and one but you know what I

00:50:49 ◼   ► mean like you know there's there's

00:50:50 ◼   ► there are pieces but there's so there's

00:50:52 ◼   ► far fewer pieces and far fewer

00:50:53 ◼   ► fasteners so I I do wonder if that

00:50:55 ◼   ► would actually be a cost savings and I

00:50:57 ◼   ► think honestly I think they would

00:50:58 ◼   ► never do that they've been they've had

00:50:59 ◼   ► unibody again since the original

00:51:01 ◼   ► MacBook Air I don't think they're ever

00:51:02 ◼   ► going back until there's a new

00:51:03 ◼   ► materials breakthrough and they start

00:51:04 ◼   ► making them out of like transparent

00:51:06 ◼   ► aluminum or graphite or something

00:51:08 ◼   ► all right Casey what's next back on the

00:51:11 ◼   ► chopping block here we go

00:51:12 ◼   ► uh may this might be silly but it's

00:51:15 ◼   ► one of the first things that jumps to

00:51:17 ◼   ► mind is what about crappier radios

00:51:19 ◼   ► crappier bluetooth radios older

00:51:21 ◼   ► bluetooth radios older wi-fi radios

00:51:23 ◼   ► they already do that for all their

00:51:23 ◼   ► computers yeah yeah you know what I

00:51:26 ◼   ► mean but you know where where the

00:51:28 ◼   ► MacBook Pro the newest MacBook Pro

00:51:30 ◼   ► maybe has wi-fi seven I don't even

00:51:31 ◼   ► know if that's true anymore I can't

00:51:32 ◼   ► keep up but it doesn't yeah I think

00:51:34 ◼   ► we're still on 6e although funny you

00:51:37 ◼   ► mentioned this Casey the base model

00:51:38 ◼   ► iPad does not have wi-fi 6e it has

00:51:41 ◼   ► wi-fi 6 there you go and so you know

00:51:44 ◼   ► could you go even older would that be

00:51:46 ◼   ► an advantage I don't know but you know

00:51:48 ◼   ► some sort of crippled bluetooth radio

00:51:51 ◼   ► wi-fi radio something along those lines

00:51:54 ◼   ► where it's just not a modern chip it's

00:51:57 ◼   ► sufficient but not stellar all right my

00:52:01 ◼   ► next pick the ports one USB-C port and a

00:52:06 ◼   ► headphone jack and that's it Casey will

00:52:09 ◼   ► love it oh stop it so no thunderbolt

00:52:12 ◼   ► support no mag safe no HDMI because

00:52:15 ◼   ► again we have no external monitor

00:52:16 ◼   ► support in my theory here so one USB-C

00:52:19 ◼   ► port and a headphone jack just like the

00:52:21 ◼   ► old MacBook yeah actually the jumping

00:52:24 ◼   ► slightly ahead here Stephen Hackett

00:52:25 ◼   ► wrote about this and he was musing about

00:52:28 ◼   ► the possibility of an 18 pro and a Mac and

00:52:30 ◼   ► he says the immediate downside to the

00:52:32 ◼   ► 18 pro is that only supports USB 3 at

00:52:34 ◼   ► 10 gigabits per second yep not

00:52:35 ◼   ► thunderbolt that would make any Mac

00:52:37 ◼   ► with an 18 at its heart only capable of

00:52:38 ◼   ► USB-C and that's fine that's just that's

00:52:41 ◼   ► what they used to do with their long

00:52:42 ◼   ► computers all the time anyway I think

00:52:43 ◼   ► then there yeah I think I mean yeah

00:52:46 ◼   ► having one port is crappy but having

00:52:48 ◼   ► no thunderbolt I think is a given and so

00:52:50 ◼   ► the 18 is not a limiting factor there

00:52:52 ◼   ► mine I expected I thought you're gonna

00:52:53 ◼   ► steal this from me is a pretty easy

00:52:56 ◼   ► one smaller battery mmm smaller

00:52:58 ◼   ► batteries cost less money yeah I was

00:52:59 ◼   ► about to say the same thing you're

00:53:00 ◼   ► stealing all mine y'all think of the

00:53:01 ◼   ► iPad the iPad has a smaller battery

00:53:04 ◼   ► and the phone certainly has a smaller

00:53:06 ◼   ► battery like can't how small a battery

00:53:09 ◼   ► can you get away with and still have

00:53:10 ◼   ► accessible battery life because for

00:53:12 ◼   ► every amount that you make that

00:53:13 ◼   ► battery smaller first of all makes the

00:53:14 ◼   ► laptop lighter but second of all makes

00:53:15 ◼   ► it cheaper because smaller batteries

00:53:17 ◼   ► cost less money yeah that's pretty

00:53:18 ◼   ► good all right Casey I'm out of any of

00:53:22 ◼   ► the ones that I brainstormed when we

00:53:23 ◼   ► started the game but I think did we

00:53:25 ◼   ► already talk about a teeny tiny SSD did

00:53:27 ◼   ► somebody no we did not we did I said

00:53:28 ◼   ► remove the SSD I think a teeny tiny

00:53:32 ◼   ► SSD to find that as you will I think

00:53:33 ◼   ► you know 128 gigs or something like

00:53:35 ◼   ► that I don't even know what the we're

00:53:36 ◼   ► just making the world's most terrible

00:53:38 ◼   ► computer here because I mean this is

00:53:39 ◼   ► what happens if your job is to remove

00:53:41 ◼   ► costs you can remove costs when it's

00:53:43 ◼   ► like we're rapidly getting to the

00:53:44 ◼   ► point now where we would not

00:53:45 ◼   ► recommend this computer I think we

00:53:47 ◼   ► may have passed the point where we

00:53:48 ◼   ► would not recommend it oh and

00:53:49 ◼   ► actually come to think of it a

00:53:50 ◼   ► corollary to what I just said is

00:53:52 ◼   ► whether or not the SSD is is smaller

00:53:55 ◼   ► in terms of capacity what about

00:53:57 ◼   ► making it considerably slower you know

00:54:00 ◼   ► where SSDs are still lightning fast

00:54:02 ◼   ► even crappy SSDs by and large are

00:54:03 ◼   ► lightning fast it might cost them more

00:54:05 ◼   ► money to get a slower SSDs it's fair but

00:54:09 ◼   ► I mean again I'm just brainstorming

00:54:10 ◼   ► what if what if it's either smaller or

00:54:12 ◼   ► slower and that that low-end iPad does

00:54:15 ◼   ► start with a 128 gig model and so yeah

00:54:18 ◼   ► like and I did I looked for for instance

00:54:21 ◼   ► though like as a point of comparison

00:54:23 ◼   ► like what are the cheapest PC laptops

00:54:25 ◼   ► like in this price range like you know

00:54:27 ◼   ► in like the 600 ish dollar price range

00:54:29 ◼   ► what do you get on a PC laptop these

00:54:30 ◼   ► days and you get 16 and 512 like

00:54:33 ◼   ► that's that's a pretty pretty

00:54:35 ◼   ► universal across the board yeah I know

00:54:37 ◼   ► yes Apple lives in a different

00:54:38 ◼   ► universe that's the other thing about

00:54:39 ◼   ► this cheap laptop I know we're like

00:54:41 ◼   ► talking about in the context of the

00:54:42 ◼   ► Walmart one which I think has no

00:54:43 ◼   ► configuration options but like can you

00:54:45 ◼   ► imagine them making a low-cost

00:54:47 ◼   ► MacBook like it's like you said with

00:54:48 ◼   ► the minis the lower cost of Apple makes

00:54:50 ◼   ► a Mac you'll double the price when you

00:54:53 ◼   ► try to add RAM to it if that's even an

00:54:54 ◼   ► option like if there are any options to

00:54:56 ◼   ► configure the RAM or the SSD and this

00:54:58 ◼   ► thing is cheaper than any existing Mac

00:55:01 ◼   ► you will literally double you almost

00:55:02 ◼   ► double it on the Mac mini you said it's

00:55:04 ◼   ► like a $600 computer add RAM it adds

00:55:06 ◼   ► $400 to a $600 thing so if there was a

00:55:10 ◼   ► $400 Mac mini adding any amount of

00:55:12 ◼   ► additional RAM that Apple offers you

00:55:13 ◼   ► would double the price of this so it's

00:55:15 ◼   ► they're they're getting real close

00:55:16 ◼   ► there with their obsession with you

00:55:18 ◼   ► know ridiculous margins I mean so one

00:55:21 ◼   ► idea I had is what if they don't offer

00:55:24 ◼   ► any options except color I was you to

00:55:27 ◼   ► keep stealing all my ideas that's the

00:55:30 ◼   ► nature of the nature of a draft yeah