Upgrade

00:00:00 ◼   ► From Relay, this is Upgrade episode 570 for June 30th, 2025. Today's show is brought to you by Ecamm and Sentry. We are halfway through the year, which is wild to consider. My name is Mike Hurley. I'm joined by Jason Snell. Hi, Jason Snell.

00:00:26 ◼   ► Hello, Mike Hurley. How are you? I'm good. I'm good. I have a snow talk question for you.

00:00:30 ◼   ► Oh, of course you do. Comes in from Sims who wants to know. The viewers on YouTube know that you both wear sunglasses, eyeglasses day to day. What is your strategy for sunglasses when you're out on the summer of fun?

00:00:42 ◼   ► Oh, interesting. Yes. On YouTube, you can see we wear glasses because we wear glasses. You know, the glasses I wear on YouTube are not the glasses I wear in regular life. These are my computer glasses.

00:00:54 ◼   ► Oh, they are because they're they're like they're less powerful because I don't need to see far. I need to see near. So they're they're like several steps. I don't know. I'm not an optometrist. Less powerful.

00:01:11 ◼   ► I have a pair of prescription sunglasses that I wear when I'm out having the summer of fun. They're actually from Enchroma, which is so I have to say I'm an influencer and they sent me a pair of their sunglasses for this moment, I guess.

00:01:29 ◼   ► But they make they make they make sunglasses that and glasses, I think, but sunglasses for sure that are color enhancing for people who are colorblind.

00:01:41 ◼   ► And so I wear the Enchroma sunglasses out in the world and all of those greens. They're so they're so green.

00:01:47 ◼   ► It's what like and occasionally I'll be like, oh, look at that. Those are purple flowers. Those red, those little red trees over things that I would never say without those.

00:01:56 ◼   ► So I have them and they're really great.

00:01:59 ◼   ► I have seen this happen in person.

00:02:01 ◼   ► I have been with you where you remarked on the color of something because you're wearing your sunglasses.

00:02:07 ◼   ► And it really I mean, I'm not going to I'm not a scientist. I'm not a doctor.

00:02:11 ◼   ► I'm not going to tell you how they do it and whether what they do is real or fake or anything like that, other than to say that I feel like I notice color more.

00:02:20 ◼   ► If you think about it, Jason, you're already wearing AR glasses, right?

00:02:25 ◼   ► They are. In a way, they are augmenting my reality in a way.

00:02:28 ◼   ► That is true.

00:02:29 ◼   ► I do. My sunglasses are AR glasses.

00:02:32 ◼   ► I wear the Meta Ray-Bans. They're my actual sunglasses.

00:02:36 ◼   ► They're the first sunglasses I've ever had with transition lenses because obviously I need I need eyeglasses and I like them.

00:02:44 ◼   ► It's interesting, really.

00:02:45 ◼   ► So I went with the transition lenses because I don't like having to carry sunglasses and regular glasses when I go somewhere.

00:02:54 ◼   ► But the problem is the Ray-Ban frames are not the frames style that I would like to wear.

00:03:04 ◼   ► Like my eyeglasses are very thin metal frames.

00:03:07 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:03:08 ◼   ► So I'm still kind of like sometimes I decide to not take my sunglasses somewhere because I don't want to sit in a restaurant wearing the Ray-Ban frames.

00:03:19 ◼   ► But I still am happy with whatever sunglasses I get, prescription sunglasses, right?

00:03:26 ◼   ► I think having transition is the right call for me because I get the option of like if I'm going on holiday or I'm going out for the day, like I don't have to carry a glasses case with me.

00:03:37 ◼   ► I do.

00:03:38 ◼   ► I like that.

00:03:39 ◼   ► I like that, that barb.

00:03:40 ◼   ► They're my sunglasses now.

00:03:41 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:03:42 ◼   ► I don't do that.

00:03:43 ◼   ► I actually have a pair of clips for my regular prescription glasses that I will also wear if I'm going to be going in and out.

00:03:50 ◼   ► And I prefer to wear the Enchroma sunglasses.

00:03:53 ◼   ► But, you know, if I'm going inside and outside and inside and outside, I'm not going to be like for an extended period of time out in the sun.

00:04:03 ◼   ► I will bring the clips that just clip right on to my regular glasses and do it that way.

00:04:07 ◼   ► If you would like to send in a snow talk question for us to open a future episode of the show, summer related questions are very welcome during the summer of fun.

00:04:15 ◼   ► We love them.

00:04:16 ◼   ► Go to upgradefeedback.com and you can send them in.

00:04:19 ◼   ► Jason, I'm going to start with the details today.

00:04:22 ◼   ► Yes, let's do it.

00:04:24 ◼   ► Because it's kind of follow up, but I thought listed the details.

00:04:26 ◼   ► Beta 2 is out now.

00:04:28 ◼   ► And there's a smattering of tweaks and features, but by and large, it feels like across the platforms, the majority of changes in the second developer betas are for readability.

00:04:40 ◼   ► So clearing up some stuff with Liquid Glass to make it a little more readable, notably Control Center, Notification Center, and the menu bar on the Mac, which while isn't Liquid Glass as part of the new design, you can kind of put a bit of translucency behind it.

00:04:56 ◼   ► Do you have any particular thoughts on Beta 2?

00:05:00 ◼   ► No, I'm running, I updated to all of them.

00:05:05 ◼   ► They still seem fairly stable to me.

00:05:08 ◼   ► They have their little quirks, but they're usable.

00:05:09 ◼   ► One of the funny things about some of these tweaks, like putting the translucency behind the menu bar is, since I'm going to preview and then ultimately review Mac OS,

00:05:23 ◼   ► part of my job is to try it the way it is, not put it back to the way it was.

00:05:28 ◼   ► So like, my menu bar is still transparent.

00:05:30 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:05:31 ◼   ► Because I need to experience that and have an opinion about it and not just go back, right?

00:05:35 ◼   ► Like, how do I review a new version of Mac OS if the first thing I do is toggle all the new features off?

00:05:42 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:05:43 ◼   ► Like, it's nonsense.

00:05:44 ◼   ► So, um, so that's where I am, right?

00:05:49 ◼   ► Like, that would be, that would be, I mean, I think this is why John Syracuse retired from reviewing Mac OS.

00:05:55 ◼   ► Yeah, he couldn't, he couldn't break from his, like, urges of wanting to change things.

00:06:00 ◼   ► Oh, right?

00:06:00 ◼   ► I mean, they feed, to be sure, they feed into what he wrote, right?

00:06:04 ◼   ► Like, well, I isn't doing it this way.

00:06:06 ◼   ► But I have to subject myself to whatever they do because I have to write about it, even if I say it's bad.

00:06:13 ◼   ► When you started this train of thought, I thought you were going to say something that I heard, uh, Federico and One True John say, which is, um, in, in a beta cycle like this, when you're reviewing them, you have to leave your screenshots to the absolute end.

00:06:27 ◼   ► Oh, for sure.

00:06:29 ◼   ► Because things keep changing.

00:06:30 ◼   ► Well, like, some years you can kind of get away with it, you know, some sort of, but like, if you've got a visual change, like, because Federico was talking about, like, that, was it iOS 15 where they changed all the Safari stuff?

00:06:40 ◼   ► And, and, like, they changed the design in, like, the final beta.

00:06:45 ◼   ► Right, right up to the last.

00:06:46 ◼   ► It's true.

00:06:46 ◼   ► I, I did a bunch of screens, because I, in late summer, I start to work on the photos book and, uh, take control of photos.

00:06:55 ◼   ► And, um, I, I will sometimes start taking some screenshots then of things I know, but I have absolutely been bitten with that, where I've taken the screenshots and then there's a new beta.

00:07:07 ◼   ► I'm like, oh, God, they moved that thing.

00:07:09 ◼   ► Okay, well, well, it's, yeah, you got to leave them to the end.

00:07:11 ◼   ► That's true.

00:07:11 ◼   ► But you also have to live with it.

00:07:12 ◼   ► If you're going to write about a new thing, you can't just turn it off and say, it's bad, I turned it off.

00:07:17 ◼   ► You need to talk, you need to live with it.

00:07:19 ◼   ► And even if you come to hate it, you, you need to live with it.

00:07:22 ◼   ► So, I'm doing that, and I've started, I started writing my Mac OS, uh, preview, which will drop with, you know, around when the public beta is, whenever that is, I don't know, July, which is tomorrow.

00:07:33 ◼   ► Tomorrow, but probably not tomorrow, tomorrow, I hope not.

00:07:36 ◼   ► It won't be right when, if it's tomorrow, I'll put it that way.

00:07:40 ◼   ► Because unless you want to read a review that's entirely a thousand words about the menu bar, because I've written that part, but that's it.

00:07:46 ◼   ► Um, I'll be releasing my, my preview in segments, because, uh, if, if they, if they release the beta on July 1st, they're not going to do it.

00:07:53 ◼   ► You haven't written a thousand words about the menu bar, have you?

00:07:55 ◼   ► I have, I, I, on Saturday, I wrote a thousand words about the menu bar.

00:07:58 ◼   ► You wrote a thousand words about the Tahoe menu bar?

00:08:00 ◼   ► A thousand words about the menu bar, in Tahoe, yes.

00:08:02 ◼   ► Did John Syracuse die and, like, his ghost fight into you?

00:08:07 ◼   ► What happened?

00:08:07 ◼   ► No, no, no, no, no, no.

00:08:08 ◼   ► John would have written 4,000 words about the menu bar.

00:08:11 ◼   ► I only wrote a thousand words about the menu bar, because I keep it succinct, folks.

00:08:17 ◼   ► Uh, there's a lot to say about the menu bar.

00:08:19 ◼   ► There's a lot going on in the menu bar.

00:08:20 ◼   ► I mean, I don't want to get, I mean, this is the details, I guess I could say.

00:08:23 ◼   ► Um.

00:08:24 ◼   ► This is the place.

00:08:25 ◼   ► I'll, I'll give you my little thesis about the menu bar.

00:08:26 ◼   ► There's a little preview of what I'm going to write about.

00:08:28 ◼   ► Upgrade, I mean, this is the cycle, right?

00:08:30 ◼   ► You hear people talk about it, they write about it, whatever.

00:08:32 ◼   ► Mm-hmm.

00:08:33 ◼   ► Apple has a vision for the menu bar on the Mac.

00:08:36 ◼   ► A new vision for the menu bar on the Mac.

00:08:39 ◼   ► Leaving the transparency aside, Apple, so for years we've had these things called menu extras that apps can put up there.

00:08:46 ◼   ► And if you've ever, you know, used, had to use bartender or hidden bar or something like that, it's because all of these apps kind of poop their little icons up into the menu bar.

00:08:54 ◼   ► And you're like, why are there?

00:08:55 ◼   ► I'm looking right now because bartender kind of doesn't work right in Tahoe.

00:08:59 ◼   ► I'm looking right now.

00:08:59 ◼   ► It's like one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, eight, just sort of random app icons in my menu bar before it gets to the stuff that I actually care about.

00:09:09 ◼   ► Those are generally, I think they're called menu extras or menu bar items.

00:09:14 ◼   ► But anyway, they're the Mac OS X, you can put an icon in the menu bar and do stuff with it kind of thing.

00:09:20 ◼   ► And four years ago, five years ago, something like that, they introduced Control Center on the Mac, right?

00:09:26 ◼   ► But it was like a hardwired kind of like simple Control Center.

00:09:29 ◼   ► The Control Center in Tahoe is like a full-blown Control Center, kind of like what they've done on iOS and iPad OS.

00:09:36 ◼   ► It's fully editable.

00:09:37 ◼   ► There's an API for apps to write their own controls.

00:09:42 ◼   ► So all of these apps that currently write menu extras, they can write controls.

00:09:46 ◼   ► And controls can be in Control Center.

00:09:50 ◼   ► Controls can be in the menu bar.

00:09:52 ◼   ► Every item that's in Control Center, you can say, put this in the menu bar, or you can take it out of the menu bar, and it still is in Control Center.

00:09:58 ◼   ► So I could put a little shortcut up there and just like hit it, and it will do its thing?

00:10:02 ◼   ► I don't know if you can put a shortcut or if it's just showing shortcuts.

00:10:07 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:10:07 ◼   ► I haven't tried that yet.

00:10:08 ◼   ► The menu bar section just got longer, Mike.

00:10:10 ◼   ► Good job.

00:10:11 ◼   ► 1,020 words.

00:10:13 ◼   ► No, it's 1,000.

00:10:14 ◼   ► Probably 1,200 words now.

00:10:16 ◼   ► Thanks.

00:10:16 ◼   ► Good job.

00:10:17 ◼   ► Good job.

00:10:17 ◼   ► Now my goal is by the time you're finished talking about this, can I get you to 4,000 words?

00:10:24 ◼   ► So yeah, you can do the full Syracuse.

00:10:26 ◼   ► All right, it is, you know how last year they introduced pages for Control Center, right?

00:10:34 ◼   ► You can have like multiple pages full of controls in Control Center.

00:10:37 ◼   ► On the Mac in Tahoe, there aren't pages.

00:10:41 ◼   ► Instead, you can literally add more menu bar dropdowns with more controls in them.

00:10:50 ◼   ► So basically what Apple is doing is it's building a completely extensible framework for controls in the menu bar that can live in the menu bar or they can live in submenus.

00:11:02 ◼   ► They're basically, I don't want to say they're Sherlocking bartender, but they're kind of Sherlocking bartender.

00:11:07 ◼   ► They're doing it in a different way, right?

00:11:10 ◼   ► Where it's like, hey, instead of this just going across, it's coming down now.

00:11:14 ◼   ► It's, well, you can do either, right?

00:11:15 ◼   ► You can put them, you can say, put this in the menu bar, or you can say, I'm going to add this control to this.

00:11:20 ◼   ► And you give them, you can't choose any icon, but those additional pages of Control Center that are icons in the menu bar, you can choose from like 12 custom icons that they provide.

00:11:30 ◼   ► I could grab all of my iStat menu items that I have, and I could collect them up and put them in a dropdown on their own.

00:11:40 ◼   ► Only if they're a control.

00:11:41 ◼   ► See, and this is the thing why it's a transition, right?

00:11:44 ◼   ► Is that menu extras, things, menu bar apps, things that run in the menu bar using the old APIs don't go in Control Center, but controls can.

00:11:53 ◼   ► So iStat menus is an example where they might not want that.

00:11:56 ◼   ► I mean, you can probably set iStat menus to be, yeah.

00:11:59 ◼   ► You can set iStat menus to be what it wants, but they're probably, they probably don't want to be a control because they do so many kind of weird things.

00:12:05 ◼   ► But like, I've got so many of these things that it's just like, we're just being present in your menu bar to remind you that we're running.

00:12:13 ◼   ► I'm like, I don't need that, right?

00:12:15 ◼   ► Like, that could be a control.

00:12:16 ◼   ► You could put that.

00:12:17 ◼   ► So to my knowledge, you can't add non-control items, menu bar items, to Control Center.

00:12:24 ◼   ► I don't think you can go that far.

00:12:26 ◼   ► So this is a long range plan by Apple.

00:12:28 ◼   ► But I would say that with Tahoe, it's very clear what Apple wants to do with the menu bar going forward on the Mac.

00:12:35 ◼   ► And it's controls API and Control Center and multiple pages if you want them in Control Center in the menu bar and items on the menu bar from Control Center if you want them.

00:12:46 ◼   ► That's a fully functional, understandable concept for how the Mac menu bar can work.

00:12:53 ◼   ► And that multi-page thing is great because you don't want a gigantic Control Center with everything in it.

00:12:58 ◼   ► But at the same time, if you've got a relatively small laptop screen with a notch and then an app with lots of menu items, you're going to run out of space really fast.

00:13:08 ◼   ► So having the ability to say, you know what, don't put Wi-Fi in the menu bar.

00:13:12 ◼   ► But now my Control Center is a little cluttered, so I'm going to create a now playing or a connectivity page of Control Center that's a separate icon, you know, in the menu bar.

00:13:23 ◼   ► For that stuff, like all of that is out there.

00:13:25 ◼   ► So it's really interesting.

00:13:26 ◼   ► I like, again, there are some details that have to be worked out and it's it feels like a very much a transition because everybody's already got like menu extras.

00:13:36 ◼   ► But I think you can just look at it and say, oh, this is what Apple wants the future of the menu bar on the Mac to be.

00:13:42 ◼   ► And I think that's pretty cool.

00:13:43 ◼   ► That's the equivalent of like a thousand words right there.

00:13:47 ◼   ► So yeah, congratulations, everybody.

00:13:48 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:13:48 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:13:49 ◼   ► I mean, for me, like the tweaks that they've made, fine.

00:13:53 ◼   ► Really, the only issues that I have with readability with iPadOS is Notification Center.

00:14:00 ◼   ► And it's still they've made changes to it, but the notifications are still just too hard to read.

00:14:05 ◼   ► And this might be a wallpaper problem, but their system needs to be better at working around educators' wallpapers.

00:14:14 ◼   ► It's funny, too, because like I don't I don't actually have a problem with the menu bar transparency.

00:14:18 ◼   ► Maybe it's the wallpapers I tried, but in the Mac menu bar, it reads OK.

00:14:22 ◼   ► It's not glass, right?

00:14:23 ◼   ► It's not a glass menu bar.

00:14:24 ◼   ► It's like just not there.

00:14:26 ◼   ► But yes, on iPhone and iPad, you get into these weird situations where it's this light glass and they're not doing like I expected them to be doing more to put like to to add a blur effect around the edges of the text so that the text edges are more defined so that they're more readable or to add a little like all the things that we do when we're trying to work in like Photoshop to do visibility issues.

00:14:51 ◼   ► Like you put a stroke around the text, do you put a shadow around the text, maybe like a sharp drop shadow around the text?

00:14:57 ◼   ► What do you do to do you have an algorithm that like I have seen this?

00:15:02 ◼   ► I think Apple in some places is noting a lack of contrast between the text and what's behind it.

00:15:08 ◼   ► And it does some very limited local dimming of what's behind it.

00:15:13 ◼   ► Yeah, it gets a little hate.

00:15:15 ◼   ► It's like a little shadow is cast from nowhere behind it.

00:15:19 ◼   ► And you and you almost go, are my eyes playing tricks on me?

00:15:23 ◼   ► Because it's that subtle.

00:15:23 ◼   ► But I think they are in some places actually doing that.

00:15:27 ◼   ► So I'm surprised on one level that it's in places as unreadable as it is.

00:15:32 ◼   ► But on another level, I feel like this is a solvable problem, you know, and it may be that Apple knew that this wasn't quite right yet, but they haven't come up with their official solution.

00:15:43 ◼   ► I absolutely believe it's a solvable problem.

00:15:45 ◼   ► But I think it's just going to take time and testing and feedback to get it to, you know, where it needs to be.

00:15:53 ◼   ► Because you mentioned, right, like anyone that's ever made any kind of visual stuff knows there is always a problem in this kind of thing.

00:16:02 ◼   ► And there are so many solutions for it.

00:16:03 ◼   ► So, like, I'm confident they'll get there.

00:16:05 ◼   ► And I'll say again, and part of this is Apple's fault because they come out with their announcements and they're like super confident because why would they not be their Apple?

00:16:13 ◼   ► It's great.

00:16:13 ◼   ► It's all going to be amazing.

00:16:14 ◼   ► Truth is somebody designed this design and then somebody else had to implement it.

00:16:21 ◼   ► And, you know what, I know you want, I know that some people are like, well, they should have implemented the entire thing for developer beta one.

00:16:29 ◼   ► It's like, well, they didn't.

00:16:30 ◼   ► They didn't.

00:16:32 ◼   ► What we have now is not, I would argue, is not even entirely what the designers want it to be, let alone what they're going to get feedback on and realize that they've made some mistakes and they need to change.

00:16:45 ◼   ► Part of what's going on this summer clearly is stuff like it's hard.

00:16:48 ◼   ► It's very hard to look at Mac OS and not think that stuff just hasn't been implemented yet because it doesn't look right.

00:16:54 ◼   ► It's very weird and like it's an ongoing process and I'm willing to give them some slack now because it's not shipping.

00:17:02 ◼   ► But you need to ship, you need to implement the design and get all your changes covered by the time you ship it to regular people in the fall.

00:17:12 ◼   ► But right now, I like right now I have to do things like say, OK, this probably isn't how they intended it.

00:17:18 ◼   ► And I can even I can see some ways forward for them to address this.

00:17:22 ◼   ► So let's file a feedback.

00:17:24 ◼   ► Let's let's talk about those issues and and hopefully they're they're on it.

00:17:29 ◼   ► I think that's all we can do.

00:17:30 ◼   ► I know that these kinds of like personal anecdoty things don't really mean anything, but it was just interesting to me.

00:17:37 ◼   ► So I thought I would share a couple of days ago.

00:17:39 ◼   ► Dina was using my iPad like that that has the beta on it.

00:17:42 ◼   ► And she was just like, oh, is this that liquid glass?

00:17:45 ◼   ► I was like, yeah, she's like, it's pretty fun.

00:17:47 ◼   ► And I was like, I agree with you like she'd like the way that things were lighting up, like, you know, like the luminance thing.

00:17:53 ◼   ► And so I went to show her I said, I want to show you the thing that I think is the most fun, which is the text selector.

00:17:58 ◼   ► You know that if you, you know, move your finger around, it's like this water droplet that's she's like, oh, that's really cool.

00:18:04 ◼   ► And I was like, I agree.

00:18:06 ◼   ► It is really that's what they're going for.

00:18:07 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:18:08 ◼   ► And I I do believe that I do believe I have believed this and I now believe it even more just based on one interaction.

00:18:17 ◼   ► That the majority of people will think this is cool and it's not going to be the disaster that people think it's going to be.

00:18:22 ◼   ► That's where I put my money down on.

00:18:24 ◼   ► I think the challenge when you're talking about this stuff, especially trying to try to be critical about it.

00:18:30 ◼   ► And, you know, whether it's during when it's shipped or when it hasn't shipped yet is there are two things going on here.

00:18:36 ◼   ► One of them is, does it look cool?

00:18:38 ◼   ► And the other is, is it frustrating to use?

00:18:43 ◼   ► And that's our challenge.

00:18:45 ◼   ► Our challenge is to talk about the usability issues where they exist and ways that it should probably be better.

00:18:53 ◼   ► But also, I would say, not fail to acknowledge the fact that part of the reason, if not mostly the reason Apple's doing this is because they want to have a new look on their devices.

00:19:05 ◼   ► I just don't know why people are upset about that, like, that, like, you can't just want to redesign because it will look cool.

00:19:14 ◼   ► That is a great reason to do a redesign.

00:19:16 ◼   ► The last few weeks on Accidental Tech Podcast, we've already talked about John Syracuse, so we might as well mention the whole podcast.

00:19:24 ◼   ► You know, Marco, Marco Armit is extremely critical of so much of what Apple does in terms of design.

00:19:32 ◼   ► And he has some very sharp criticism for some of the details in the implementation of this design.

00:19:37 ◼   ► But I think it's telling that even somebody who is coming at it from that perspective, a spectacularly skeptical person about Apple's design people says, look, it's cool.

00:19:51 ◼   ► Don't be afraid.

00:19:52 ◼   ► And his issue is that Apple is, like, trying to dress it up as, well, we really did this because we wanted to send important, you know, guidelines for whatever in that PR thing they did during the video.

00:20:04 ◼   ► It's okay to just say, we did this because we wanted it to be cool.

00:20:08 ◼   ► And he's right.

00:20:11 ◼   ► And it is.

00:20:12 ◼   ► It is a fun thing.

00:20:13 ◼   ► The challenge of this summer and the challenge of the designers going forward with this design is,

00:20:20 ◼   ► how do you make it cool but not frustrating for users?

00:20:25 ◼   ► That's the important thing, right?

00:20:27 ◼   ► It's like that droplet effect is amazing, but if you can't read your texts, it's bad.

00:20:34 ◼   ► So you just have to, like, and that's, I think, where we come from.

00:20:38 ◼   ► But I'm okay saying I think it's cool.

00:20:40 ◼   ► I think there's, I don't think there's a right design.

00:20:43 ◼   ► I do get the vibe from some people, and you may have seen this too, that some people have the opinion, like, well, this is just the wrong design.

00:20:49 ◼   ► I don't think there's a right design.

00:20:50 ◼   ► There are lots of designs you could do.

00:20:51 ◼   ► And, again, I will say, I think you can make a very functional, easy-to-use design that was ugly.

00:20:57 ◼   ► And I don't think that's good.

00:20:59 ◼   ► I don't think that's acceptable.

00:21:00 ◼   ► I think that you need to try to do both.

00:21:02 ◼   ► And Apple is starting with cool, but we can't let them off the hook for usable.

00:21:07 ◼   ► I do think it's fun and cool.

00:21:09 ◼   ► Not so much on the Mac yet, although I occasionally find a thing on the Mac that I'm like, oh, that is fun.

00:21:15 ◼   ► But it's harder to find those things because I think it's not all there, and maybe it was never really meant to be super fun on the Mac.

00:21:23 ◼   ► And so it's not, but I don't know.

00:21:26 ◼   ► I think it's important to keep those two impulses in mind, that part of the goal here is for this to be fun and cool and so that people react positively this fall.

00:21:36 ◼   ► And right now, part of what's going on is we all need to be putting a critical eye to the usability of this because we don't need to take away the fun.

00:21:44 ◼   ► But we need to make sure that we put the fun in functional.

00:21:48 ◼   ► Is that a thing I can say?

00:21:49 ◼   ► Anyway, I said it.

00:21:49 ◼   ► There it is.

00:21:50 ◼   ► This episode is brought to you by Ecamm.

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00:22:56 ◼   ► For Six Colors and for Total Particle on the incomparable, we use Ecamm Live.

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00:24:51 ◼   ► Rumor roundup time.

00:24:54 ◼   ► Yee-haw!

00:24:55 ◼   ► This first rumor, I...

00:24:59 ◼   ► It's a returning rumor.

00:25:00 ◼   ► It's a rumor rebound.

00:25:02 ◼   ► It's a rumor-rang.

00:25:03 ◼   ► Oh, rumor-rang.

00:25:04 ◼   ► I don't understand it, and I want to talk to you about it.

00:25:08 ◼   ► I'm excited to talk to you about it because I'm kind of at a loss with it.

00:25:11 ◼   ► So Ming-Chi-Kuo...

00:25:12 ◼   ► I understand it.

00:25:13 ◼   ► I understand it.

00:25:14 ◼   ► This is, I mean, again, we've been here before.

00:25:16 ◼   ► He's taken, like...

00:25:17 ◼   ► He pulled open a drawer and moths flew out, and then this rumor came out.

00:25:21 ◼   ► Maybe.

00:25:21 ◼   ► That's what happened.

00:25:21 ◼   ► There's a detail that's weird.

00:25:24 ◼   ► All right.

00:25:24 ◼   ► Ming-Chi-Kuo is reporting that Apple is working on a new entry-level MacBook.

00:25:28 ◼   ► I was like, okay, yeah.

00:25:29 ◼   ► Powered by the A18 Pro.

00:25:32 ◼   ► Excuse me?

00:25:34 ◼   ► So, Quo is saying that this is set to go into production around the end of this year with

00:25:40 ◼   ► a 13-inch screen, the same that's on the MacBook Air, potentially with colorful cases.

00:25:45 ◼   ► Now, the colorful cases part on a MacBook, we've been here before, right?

00:25:50 ◼   ► We thought we were going to get that.

00:25:51 ◼   ► We didn't get that.

00:25:52 ◼   ► It just never happened.

00:25:53 ◼   ► It just never happened, right?

00:25:54 ◼   ► It's like it was the obvious thing.

00:25:55 ◼   ► It's like, hey, look.

00:25:56 ◼   ► Buy a Mac.

00:25:58 ◼   ► Imagine the message being sent to people who want a colorful Mac laptop that you can get

00:26:04 ◼   ► it, but only if you use an iPhone chip in your Mac.

00:26:08 ◼   ► All right.

00:26:08 ◼   ► So, here's the thing.

00:26:09 ◼   ► I don't understand.

00:26:12 ◼   ► I don't understand what this product is.

00:26:17 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:26:18 ◼   ► I mean, it's the MacBook, right?

00:26:19 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:26:20 ◼   ► Right?

00:26:20 ◼   ► But why is it 13 inches?

00:26:23 ◼   ► This is the rumor that started with...

00:26:28 ◼   ► Apple's making a Chromebook, remember?

00:26:31 ◼   ► That was what the rumor started.

00:26:32 ◼   ► And I think what we all decided is that if this is true in any way, what Apple is doing,

00:26:40 ◼   ► I would say at this point, again, we can say Apple seems to be...

00:26:44 ◼   ► Ming-Chi Kuo knows enough that I'm willing to say Apple seems to be exploring what they

00:26:49 ◼   ► need to do to make a cheaper laptop.

00:26:51 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:26:51 ◼   ► Right?

00:26:52 ◼   ► How do they get below the $999 MacBook Air?

00:26:56 ◼   ► Now, one, do they want to do that?

00:26:58 ◼   ► Two, is this an opportunity, especially in the current economic environment, to slide

00:27:04 ◼   ► a new computer in at $999 or $899 when the MacBook Air may be going up in price?

00:27:10 ◼   ► Interesting.

00:27:10 ◼   ► Right?

00:27:11 ◼   ► If everything goes up in price.

00:27:12 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:27:13 ◼   ► This might not be cheaper.

00:27:14 ◼   ► It might not be, or it might only be slightly cheaper.

00:27:17 ◼   ► But like, how do you do that?

00:27:19 ◼   ► Also, I got to say, given that Apple took the MacBook Pro and did like a totally weird

00:27:26 ◼   ► other MacBook Pro at the low end, which now resembles the regular MacBook Pro, but for

00:27:32 ◼   ► several years, they did that low end MacBook Pro that was basically like not a MacBook Pro,

00:27:38 ◼   ► but they called it that.

00:27:39 ◼   ► I wouldn't put it past them that this could actually be a MacBook Air, just not as good.

00:27:49 ◼   ► But they'd still call it a MacBook Air and it would have an A18 Pro in it.

00:27:53 ◼   ► But if they did it in a bunch of like iMac colors, wouldn't that be like really weird?

00:27:58 ◼   ► It would be, although it's possible that they could have those colors on the MacBook Air too,

00:28:01 ◼   ► right?

00:28:01 ◼   ► Like it's possible that they could do that.

00:28:03 ◼   ► But another possibility is this is a MacBook and it's going to be whatever, $799 or future

00:28:08 ◼   ► equivalent of a couple hundred dollars under the MacBook Air.

00:28:11 ◼   ► And I don't think it's unreasonable.

00:28:13 ◼   ► I think the MacBook Air is Apple's most popular laptop.

00:28:17 ◼   ► And I think the fear is if you offer people a cheaper laptop, they'll buy that one instead.

00:28:23 ◼   ► And you've just lost $200 on every sale that you would have gotten otherwise.

00:28:28 ◼   ► I think that's a possibility here.

00:28:30 ◼   ► But again, we don't know what the environment is going to be, the sales environment.

00:28:34 ◼   ► And they may feel like there's a product to be put under the M5 MacBook Air, which would

00:28:41 ◼   ► seem, or even the M4, which would seem like overpowered in a lot of ways that would be usable.

00:28:48 ◼   ► And I'm sure that the A18 Pro, it would be usable as a low end Mac.

00:28:53 ◼   ► Part of the problem with Apple Silicon right now is that even their lowest end computer is

00:28:57 ◼   ► incredibly powerful.

00:28:58 ◼   ► And that suggests to me that you could make a slower chip version and it would still be

00:29:03 ◼   ► fine for a lot of uses.

00:29:05 ◼   ► So this seems to be, to me, this seems to be a, how cheap could we make a MacBook that

00:29:12 ◼   ► would still be decent?

00:29:14 ◼   ► Because we don't, look, the M1 MacBook Air is still decent and at Walmart, right?

00:29:20 ◼   ► And like we've said before, we said, when we talked about this rumor before, it can't

00:29:24 ◼   ► stay around forever, right?

00:29:26 ◼   ► It's an M1.

00:29:26 ◼   ► It can't stay around forever.

00:29:28 ◼   ► Well, maybe this is the replacement for that.

00:29:30 ◼   ► It is like, how do we make something really cheap that we can sell at Walmart and elsewhere,

00:29:36 ◼   ► but like really cheap.

00:29:38 ◼   ► And so that's like a 13 inch screen, but not a great one.

00:29:41 ◼   ► You know, although the MacBook Air one isn't great, it's fine, but it's not great.

00:29:45 ◼   ► And, you know, other ways that they would probably reduce, does it have Thunderbolt at

00:29:50 ◼   ► all or does it have old Thunderbolt?

00:29:52 ◼   ► Maybe it's just USB-C.

00:29:53 ◼   ► I mean, there are lots of things they could do to decontent what we think of as a MacBook

00:29:58 ◼   ► Air.

00:29:58 ◼   ► And like, I mean, honestly, I could make the argument that the base model 999 MacBook Air

00:30:03 ◼   ► is too good.

00:30:05 ◼   ► Like, that's why it's such a great deal is that it's 999 and it's a pretty great computer.

00:30:09 ◼   ► But if you're Apple, you could basically say we are, our computers are so good now that we

00:30:16 ◼   ► could make a much cheaper model and it would still be, it would still meet our quality bar

00:30:22 ◼   ► to coin a phrase.

00:30:23 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:30:24 ◼   ► And I wonder if that's all what's going on here.

00:30:26 ◼   ► I think the thing that I just am stuck on, and obviously they know they wouldn't do it.

00:30:31 ◼   ► I just don't understand why not an M1 or an M2.

00:30:36 ◼   ► Like, is the A18 cheaper?

00:30:38 ◼   ► Like, is it just the Pro chip?

00:30:41 ◼   ► Well, I think some of it has to do with how many of those chips are they making anymore,

00:30:46 ◼   ► process-wise.

00:30:47 ◼   ► And if the A18 Pro is in volume and works fine and is faster than an M1 or an M2, which they're

00:30:55 ◼   ► not making anymore.

00:30:56 ◼   ► And they're putting the A18 Pro into other products, right?

00:30:59 ◼   ► Doesn't the iPad mini have the A18 Pro?

00:31:02 ◼   ► I think it does.

00:31:04 ◼   ► As A17 Pro.

00:31:05 ◼   ► So, but like a similar thing, right?

00:31:07 ◼   ► Like, because I remember there was like a, maybe like the A14, like that chip stuck around

00:31:12 ◼   ► forever because they're putting it in the Apple TV and they're like putting it everywhere.

00:31:16 ◼   ► So maybe they're trying to find like an iPhone chip that can go into a bunch of products to

00:31:21 ◼   ► help them out.

00:31:22 ◼   ► I think it just, I don't know.

00:31:25 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:31:26 ◼   ► Do they need to do like a ton of work to get macOS running on that?

00:31:30 ◼   ► Or is it just like, does it not matter?

00:31:31 ◼   ► Like, I don't know.

00:31:32 ◼   ► I suspect not.

00:31:34 ◼   ► We should say also that today Mac rumors reported that they saw backend code that suggests that

00:31:44 ◼   ► Apple is developing a MacBook with an A18 Pro chip.

00:31:47 ◼   ► Okay.

00:31:47 ◼   ► So there's more than.

00:31:48 ◼   ► It's not just for Macs anymore.

00:31:49 ◼   ► Oh, wait.

00:31:51 ◼   ► I just.

00:31:51 ◼   ► What did you just say?

00:31:52 ◼   ► A MacBook.

00:31:54 ◼   ► Oh, sorry.

00:31:54 ◼   ► Sorry.

00:31:55 ◼   ► I thought you said MacBook Pro.

00:31:56 ◼   ► I was like, wait, what?

00:31:57 ◼   ► No.

00:31:57 ◼   ► MacBook with A18 Pro.

00:31:58 ◼   ► Okay.

00:31:59 ◼   ► There you go.

00:32:00 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:32:00 ◼   ► No, it's very confusing.

00:32:01 ◼   ► It's Macs, but not Macs, but Macs with A18 Pro, but not Pro, but MacBook.

00:32:07 ◼   ► See, that is, I mean, I know they're already doing this, but it is weird that Pro chips are

00:32:11 ◼   ► going in non-Pro products.

00:32:13 ◼   ► Like that's a naming problem you've got there.

00:32:15 ◼   ► It is a problem, but so my guess is what are the impulses here?

00:32:21 ◼   ► Potentially trying to hedge against rising prices, pressure from education, success, maybe

00:32:31 ◼   ► down market of something like the Walmart MacBook Air, a feeling like their lowest, like they

00:32:40 ◼   ► could lower the bar, that their bar is set too high.

00:32:43 ◼   ► I guess I'd put it that way, that the base model MacBook Air now is so good that there's

00:32:48 ◼   ► probably room for a product below that.

00:32:50 ◼   ► And what is that product?

00:32:52 ◼   ► And the older, and because of, and this would be my next issue, chip issues, right?

00:32:57 ◼   ► Because of chip issues, I think there are some previous chips that are not available

00:33:02 ◼   ► to them anymore, right?

00:33:04 ◼   ► Because of the transitions with the three nanometer process and older legacy nodes going offline,

00:33:09 ◼   ► that they may have some issues around, simply around that.

00:33:13 ◼   ► And we don't have a lot of visibility into that, but I do think that to a certain degree,

00:33:17 ◼   ► Apple makes decisions based on how, you know, how many chips they've got, what their profiles

00:33:23 ◼   ► are and where they're coming from.

00:33:24 ◼   ► And so you put all of that together and this investigation makes sense.

00:33:27 ◼   ► Now, does this product make sense?

00:33:29 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:33:30 ◼   ► I mean, this report from Ming-Chi Kuo suggests that maybe they've decided it is something that

00:33:34 ◼   ► makes sense.

00:33:35 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:33:36 ◼   ► Again, we can make an assumption that this is just going to be called MacBook and it's

00:33:40 ◼   ► going to be cheaper than the MacBook Air and it's going to be not as good because it's

00:33:43 ◼   ► got not as good a processor.

00:33:45 ◼   ► I think that is the most likely scenario.

00:33:47 ◼   ► But again, it's also possible that this is just going to be the new low-end MacBook Air

00:33:53 ◼   ► because they did this with the MacBook Pro, right?

00:33:57 ◼   ► They had that weird MacBook Pro.

00:33:58 ◼   ► So I just, I want to put that out there too.

00:34:00 ◼   ► I like the idea.

00:34:02 ◼   ► I do wonder, I imagine the argument inside Apple was we sell so many of base model 999 MacBook

00:34:08 ◼   ► Airs that are we going to undercut ourselves?

00:34:10 ◼   ► But I think the counter argument would be, yeah, but we also sell a what, 699 M1 Air and Walmart

00:34:16 ◼   ► and it's fine.

00:34:16 ◼   ► Like it's reaching an audience we can't reach and maybe our education partners will be really

00:34:23 ◼   ► happy about it too.

00:34:24 ◼   ► And if they can make it with similar margins, it doesn't really matter, right?

00:34:28 ◼   ► Like if you've got a 999 product and a 799 product, but the margins are closer together,

00:34:34 ◼   ► then maybe it doesn't matter.

00:34:35 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:34:35 ◼   ► I think, you know, I think you've come around on a point that I wanted to make too, which

00:34:40 ◼   ► is that I don't think they have a problem with cannibalization because they have that cheap.

00:34:47 ◼   ► There is a cheap Mac that exists out in the world in a very easy to get place, right?

00:34:52 ◼   ► In Walmart.

00:34:52 ◼   ► And so I think that maybe they've seen such success with that, or they've seen enough success

00:34:57 ◼   ► with that, where they're like, why are we giving Walmart any of this money?

00:35:00 ◼   ► We'll make a computer that is that price or fits that area and we'll sell it and we'll

00:35:06 ◼   ► make all the margin.

00:35:07 ◼   ► Oh, oh, oh, oh, I've got another one for you.

00:35:10 ◼   ► Yep.

00:35:10 ◼   ► I don't know enough about this.

00:35:11 ◼   ► This is a shot in the dark, but I'll throw this in there too, which is.

00:35:16 ◼   ► They might be able to make a lot of this product in the USA.

00:35:19 ◼   ► You know, I had this thought and I wanted to make it as a joke, but yeah, maybe, right?

00:35:25 ◼   ► Like, yeah, maybe.

00:35:26 ◼   ► I don't know about the A18 Pro, but if you can get, I'll just say that the reason I thought

00:35:31 ◼   ► this is I know that TSMC in Phoenix, Arizona is not going to be on a cutting edge node, right?

00:35:38 ◼   ► But it's going to make older chips that Apple can use in some of its products.

00:35:42 ◼   ► And I thought, well, so maybe not the A18 Pro.

00:35:46 ◼   ► Maybe that is premature because that is on a cutting edge node, I think.

00:35:50 ◼   ► At least it's cutting edge right now.

00:35:51 ◼   ► But like, I could see that this products made on older chip technologies are more likely to

00:35:59 ◼   ► source chips from the US than they are to source chips on the cutting edge from TSMC.

00:36:05 ◼   ► And you might be able to build them at least in part for the US market in the US.

00:36:10 ◼   ► So I'll throw that out there.

00:36:11 ◼   ► That's just a wild idea.

00:36:12 ◼   ► I don't know if that's actually borne out by anything, but there's a lot of weird stuff

00:36:16 ◼   ► going on.

00:36:17 ◼   ► And I do think it all comes back to the fact that Apple's lowest bar for the Mac is probably

00:36:25 ◼   ► there's probably inefficiency there, right?

00:36:27 ◼   ► Like it's too much computer, even at $9.99.

00:36:30 ◼   ► It's kind of, I mean, it's not too much computer for computer nerds and pros and stuff like that.

00:36:35 ◼   ► But like for regular people who need a laptop, it's an overkill.

00:36:39 ◼   ► I mean, it is.

00:36:40 ◼   ► The M4, that's why it's such a great deal.

00:36:42 ◼   ► So maybe if you're Apple, you're like, oh, maybe we could make a lower end computer than

00:36:47 ◼   ► the low end MacBook Air.

00:36:48 ◼   ► Maybe that bar is set a little too high and we could lower it and it would still meet our

00:36:52 ◼   ► standards.

00:36:53 ◼   ► I think if they do this, it should be a MacBook.

00:36:55 ◼   ► I know that saying the MacBook Air is the most popular.

00:37:00 ◼   ► There's a reason for that, right?

00:37:01 ◼   ► Like it's a great computer and the MacBook that they tried to make, the 12 inch MacBook,

00:37:06 ◼   ► was a failure for a bunch of reasons.

00:37:07 ◼   ► It was not enough.

00:37:08 ◼   ► And there is nothing wrong with the brand MacBook.

00:37:11 ◼   ► It's a good brand.

00:37:12 ◼   ► And so I think that they could do this.

00:37:15 ◼   ► It could be called the MacBook.

00:37:16 ◼   ► People would understand what that means, right?

00:37:19 ◼   ► It's not like, oh, well, I don't want the MacBook.

00:37:21 ◼   ► I want the MacBook Air.

00:37:22 ◼   ► Like, no, I don't think that that would be a thing.

00:37:24 ◼   ► I think people would be like, people like Apple laptops.

00:37:27 ◼   ► Apple laptops are great.

00:37:29 ◼   ► This one is a good price.

00:37:30 ◼   ► It comes in pink.

00:37:31 ◼   ► Like, I'll go for that.

00:37:32 ◼   ► Because the problem with the MacBook wasn't the brand.

00:37:36 ◼   ► And it was that it was like $1,300 or something starting price.

00:37:40 ◼   ► And underpowered.

00:37:42 ◼   ► And not good.

00:37:43 ◼   ► But the underpowered part meant something to us.

00:37:47 ◼   ► But the price was what would have stopped people buying it.

00:37:50 ◼   ► The price was also bad.

00:37:51 ◼   ► No, I mean, it was a double whammy, right?

00:37:52 ◼   ► The price was bad and the quality was bad.

00:37:54 ◼   ► Even though the shape of it was cool.

00:37:57 ◼   ► And that's what we all dream of.

00:37:58 ◼   ► I don't think this would be the 12 inch, right?

00:38:01 ◼   ► The rumor is the 13 inch.

00:38:02 ◼   ► I don't think this would be a super thin light.

00:38:04 ◼   ► I don't think they want to do that.

00:38:05 ◼   ► Maybe eventually they want to do that with the Air again.

00:38:08 ◼   ► But not with this.

00:38:09 ◼   ► I think you would purposefully make this not as thin and light as the MacBook Air.

00:38:12 ◼   ► So the MacBook Air still makes sense.

00:38:14 ◼   ► It might even look more like the M1 MacBook Air.

00:38:18 ◼   ► Who knows?

00:38:21 ◼   ► Maybe.

00:38:22 ◼   ► Although, or it might, I mean, honestly, it might look a lot like the MacBook Air.

00:38:26 ◼   ► But maybe it's a little thicker.

00:38:27 ◼   ► You know, who knows?

00:38:29 ◼   ► Who knows what they would do?

00:38:30 ◼   ► Because that's the new design language.

00:38:31 ◼   ► But these are all the decisions.

00:38:33 ◼   ► I think one of the probably least exciting decision making processes at Apple would be

00:38:37 ◼   ► what technologies did we consider base for the Mac that we now are going to rip out of this thing to get it down in price?

00:38:45 ◼   ► That would be kind of a soul crushing kind of thing.

00:38:47 ◼   ► But that's the argument of like, we could lose Thunderbolt.

00:38:49 ◼   ► And people are like, oh, lose Thunderbolt.

00:38:52 ◼   ► And you're like, you know what?

00:38:53 ◼   ► If you want Thunderbolt, don't buy a computer for $6.99.

00:38:56 ◼   ► And fair enough.

00:38:58 ◼   ► People would be like, but you could get a PC laptop with Thunderbolt for $6.99 or whatever.

00:39:02 ◼   ► And it's like, so what?

00:39:04 ◼   ► You can't do it on the Mac.

00:39:05 ◼   ► If you want that, pay $9.99.

00:39:06 ◼   ► Get a MacBook Air.

00:39:07 ◼   ► Look, I've got to tell you, this customer doesn't care about Thunderbolt.

00:39:11 ◼   ► They want USB-C.

00:39:11 ◼   ► They want USB-C.

00:39:12 ◼   ► And it will have USB-C.

00:39:14 ◼   ► And they'll get everything they need from USB-C.

00:39:16 ◼   ► It will be fine.

00:39:16 ◼   ► And maybe not MagSafe.

00:39:18 ◼   ► Maybe it just does regular charging with USB-C.

00:39:21 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:39:21 ◼   ► And it'll be just, you know, basic.

00:39:24 ◼   ► But the fact is, a lot of people, that'll be enough.

00:39:28 ◼   ► Ming-Chi Kuo also published what he sees as the timeline for Apple's various AR and VR products.

00:39:34 ◼   ► I'm going to list all this off.

00:39:35 ◼   ► Some of this seems way too far out into the future, where I feel like Kuo's really got a good handle on it.

00:39:42 ◼   ► Like, I'm inclined to think that his reporting is correct on this MacBook, even though it seems weird to me,

00:39:48 ◼   ► because he's saying it will go into production soon.

00:39:50 ◼   ► But there's stuff in here multiple years away.

00:39:52 ◼   ► So, M5 Vision Pro spec bump for 2025.

00:39:56 ◼   ► Okay.

00:39:58 ◼   ► Vision Air, lower spec, entering production in Q3 of 2027, 40% less weight, using plastic and magnesium instead of titanium and glass.

00:40:10 ◼   ► It will have fewer sensors and be powered by a pro iPhone chip.

00:40:14 ◼   ► Maybe the A18 Pro, you know what I mean?

00:40:17 ◼   ► Sure, why not?

00:40:17 ◼   ► We'll find out.

00:40:17 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:40:18 ◼   ► Second generation Vision Pro in production in the second half of 2028 with a new design.

00:40:24 ◼   ► It will have a, quote, Mac class processor.

00:40:27 ◼   ► I don't, I think they currently do anyway.

00:40:29 ◼   ► Cheaper and significantly lighter.

00:40:32 ◼   ► Then, smart glasses, first set in production in Q2 2027.

00:40:40 ◼   ► Bad news.

00:40:42 ◼   ► Yeah, I know, right?

00:40:43 ◼   ► That was supposed to be late 2026.

00:40:45 ◼   ► Yes, bad.

00:40:45 ◼   ► Multiple frame options, voice control, gestures with the cameras and cameras and audio.

00:40:52 ◼   ► If that is true, if that is true, that's not good.

00:40:54 ◼   ► Because then, and then I don't understand this.

00:40:56 ◼   ► Smart glasses with a display, 2028.

00:40:59 ◼   ► Now, I don't know how we get all the way out to 2027 before anything, and then we have a display the next year.

00:41:05 ◼   ► Like that, I don't understand.

00:41:08 ◼   ► It does seem weird to do it that way.

00:41:10 ◼   ► Because I just, I feel like at that point, don't even release them in 2027.

00:41:13 ◼   ► Just don't do it.

00:41:14 ◼   ► Like, don't even bother.

00:41:16 ◼   ► I like, so what I like about this is the gestures thing, because that suggests that Apple's going to do, even with glasses that don't have displays,

00:41:28 ◼   ► Apple's going to import some of the gesture recognition technology that it's got from Vision Pro, and I kind of like that.

00:41:35 ◼   ► I like that idea, that you could actually, like, tap your fingers together or, you know, whatever it is, things you could do that would allow you to control those devices without talking to it or tapping on the side of your head or something.

00:41:49 ◼   ► That's interesting.

00:41:51 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:41:52 ◼   ► I, yes, I agree.

00:41:53 ◼   ► The most disappointing thing here is get your AirPods glasses out sooner.

00:41:58 ◼   ► You know, I feel like they should have had them out, I mean, already, but then, like, by the end of the year.

00:42:04 ◼   ► But then the rumors from Mark Gurman were, like, more like the end of next year.

00:42:08 ◼   ► And now Ming-Chi Kuo is like, no, how about the middle of the following year?

00:42:13 ◼   ► It's so disappointing.

00:42:17 ◼   ► And on the Vision Pro front, I mean, all I can do is continue to nod at the Vision Pro stuff.

00:42:22 ◼   ► It's like, you just, look, everybody's impatient, but you just got to work through it.

00:42:25 ◼   ► It's hard.

00:42:26 ◼   ► The software is progressing.

00:42:27 ◼   ► The hardware is really cutting edge, and it's hard to, it's hard to improve it.

00:42:31 ◼   ► So taking that M2 version out of production and putting an M5 in, fine, great.

00:42:37 ◼   ► But, like, what you need is the two things that they are apparently, according to Kuo, working on, which is a cheaper, lighter, lower spec version and a second-gen version that will also be cheaper and lighter, right?

00:42:52 ◼   ► Because that's what you really want is you want in 25, later this year, whatever, like, yeah, well, we just swapped in the M5 for the M2 and the Vision Pro.

00:43:00 ◼   ► It's like, okay, whatever.

00:43:01 ◼   ► But, like, if in 27, they're like, here's the Vision Air, it's $1,000, and it's not as good as the Vision Pro, but it's way cheaper and lighter.

00:43:13 ◼   ► And then in the next year, they're like, and here's Vision Pro 2, and it's $1,500 or something, $1,750, whatever it is, and also lighter.

00:43:25 ◼   ► Then they're headed in the right direction, right?

00:43:28 ◼   ► That's all I want to see with the Vision products is make them cheaper, make them lighter, and ideally make them better or keep them as good as they are now, but for way cheaper and lighter.

00:43:39 ◼   ► Like, find a good mix there.

00:43:41 ◼   ► So that's all good.

00:43:43 ◼   ► It's just on the smart glasses front, I'm just disappointed that they got so, it's like with ChadGBT, it's like they got so caught flat-footed at the success of the Ray-Bans, I think because they were scoffing about the Meta specs or the Snap specs, that they're like, ha-ha, those are dumb.

00:43:58 ◼   ► And then Meta did theirs, and oh, they're not dumb, and that maybe they had to overcome that, and now they're way behind.

00:44:06 ◼   ► And again, it's not a mission-critical product.

00:44:08 ◼   ► The frustration is they have all the pieces to make that product already, and they just haven't made it.

00:44:15 ◼   ► And then now they've got the Oakleys too, like, you know.

00:44:18 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:44:19 ◼   ► Meta just keeps pushing it out there.

00:44:22 ◼   ► Mm-hmm.

00:44:24 ◼   ► This episode is brought to you by Sentry.

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00:45:25 ◼   ► I know that what developers want to be doing is working on new features.

00:45:29 ◼   ► Like, that's where the fun is, right?

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00:45:33 ◼   ► You don't want to be drowning in bug reports.

00:45:35 ◼   ► And also, as well, there is a creative work to it, right?

00:45:38 ◼   ► Where you ship to thing and you want it to work, and if it doesn't work for people, it's like, ah, that hurts.

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00:46:11 ◼   ► You can find the information in the show notes and click the link there if you want to.

00:46:14 ◼   ► Our thanks to Sentry for their support of this show and Relay.

00:46:21 ◼   ► It's time to lawyer up.

00:46:22 ◼   ► Clunk, clunk.

00:46:24 ◼   ► I'm so sad.

00:46:25 ◼   ► Summer of fun.

00:46:26 ◼   ► I'm so sad that we're back here.

00:46:28 ◼   ► But here we are.

00:46:30 ◼   ► It's DMA time, everyone.

00:46:32 ◼   ► Here we go.

00:46:32 ◼   ► You can't spell summer without EU.

00:46:34 ◼   ► This is a great point.

00:46:36 ◼   ► This is a really, really great point.

00:46:39 ◼   ► I'm going to start off by saying this may be the most complicated set of rules that Apple

00:46:47 ◼   ► has produced in relation to the DMA, which is truly saying something.

00:46:52 ◼   ► Apple issued a post on their developer site that includes at the end links to several PDFs,

00:46:59 ◼   ► including lengthy legal terms.

00:47:02 ◼   ► And then the last link is, if you would like to talk to Apple for 30 minutes about how this

00:47:08 ◼   ► affects your business, click here to schedule it.

00:47:10 ◼   ► And I thought, anything that ends with the offer of a 30-minute long consultant to talk about

00:47:18 ◼   ► what it all means is complicated.

00:47:22 ◼   ► So what I start by saying, we are undoubtedly going to get some details wrong.

00:47:28 ◼   ► Because we're going to try.

00:47:29 ◼   ► This is the best we can understand it right now.

00:47:31 ◼   ► It's developing and changing.

00:47:33 ◼   ► And there, I did a lot of work today, like two hours work going through articles and links

00:47:41 ◼   ► and finding FAQs.

00:47:44 ◼   ► And honestly, I changed the show document multiple times because it was like, I thought I found

00:47:50 ◼   ► a thing that said it was this way.

00:47:52 ◼   ► And then I found another thing that said it was a complete opposite thing.

00:47:54 ◼   ► So we're going to try our best.

00:47:57 ◼   ► And we'll touch on this later on when we have more details.

00:47:59 ◼   ► So last week, Apple announced another complete new set of rules for European developers.

00:48:05 ◼   ► There will now be tiers of App Store fees available to developers in the EU.

00:48:11 ◼   ► And like, this is point one.

00:48:14 ◼   ► Is this just for developers in the EU?

00:48:16 ◼   ► Or is it if you distribute in the EU?

00:48:19 ◼   ► Good question.

00:48:20 ◼   ► I think it's for apps.

00:48:22 ◼   ► I just thought of that.

00:48:22 ◼   ► I think it's specifically for app distribution in the EU.

00:48:25 ◼   ► So can an American developer, yes, I think this is the same with the last year, May.

00:48:29 ◼   ► An American developer can opt into their EU distribution.

00:48:32 ◼   ► Yes.

00:48:32 ◼   ► So this will count that way too, I assume.

00:48:34 ◼   ► Developers using the App Store as it is today start off by paying 13% to Apple instead of 30.

00:48:45 ◼   ► Or 10% on the small business program.

00:48:48 ◼   ► That's just the starting point.

00:48:49 ◼   ► More comes later.

00:48:49 ◼   ► Or you can opt in to something called Tier 1, which sees Apple taking just 5%.

00:49:00 ◼   ► Fantastic.

00:49:01 ◼   ► Right?

00:49:02 ◼   ► Ah, just give Apple 5%, I got 25% back.

00:49:05 ◼   ► But if you do this, you lose a lot of App Store features.

00:49:09 ◼   ► I think things we didn't necessarily think were features of the App Store, but here they are.

00:49:14 ◼   ► You lose, for example, automatic app updates.

00:49:19 ◼   ► Yep.

00:49:20 ◼   ► App Store promotion.

00:49:22 ◼   ► Of course.

00:49:23 ◼   ► Which wasn't a thing you could guarantee anyway.

00:49:25 ◼   ► So placement in search.

00:49:28 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:49:29 ◼   ► Ratings and reviews.

00:49:31 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:49:32 ◼   ► Ratings and reviews.

00:49:33 ◼   ► This is a bit of a mixed bag.

00:49:34 ◼   ► I think some developers wouldn't mind to get rid of their reviews.

00:49:37 ◼   ► So Tier 1, Tier 1, I immediately thought, oh, it's the Spite tier.

00:49:42 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:49:43 ◼   ► And the Spite, why is it the Spite tier?

00:49:45 ◼   ► It's the Spite tier because Apple has argued forever that the 30%, now 13%, whatever, that the cut it takes of app revenue is not, don't think of it as just credit card processing and server fees.

00:50:05 ◼   ► It's an array of services that Apple provides to developers and that it has value.

00:50:13 ◼   ► That has always been their argument.

00:50:15 ◼   ► So Tier 1 is Apple basically saying, here's what we mean.

00:50:24 ◼   ► Because here's your cut rate bargain basement App Store where we don't help you.

00:50:30 ◼   ► And, you know, you want to go down from 13 or 10 to 5, great.

00:50:35 ◼   ► You'll lose all of this stuff.

00:50:37 ◼   ► And we look at it and think, well, wait a second.

00:50:40 ◼   ► Like, automatic app updates, right?

00:50:44 ◼   ► I mean, I understand, like, promotion maybe of apps and having them, you know, ratings and reviews or a service that goes into your, you know, a big chunk of money that you kick back to Apple.

00:50:55 ◼   ► I'm sure it has costs, but, like, it's hard not to view this as being Apple sort of, like, showing the argument that they've been making all along, which is that, oh, the App Store fee, that 30% that's increasingly dwindling here, is actually covering so much that we do for you.

00:51:14 ◼   ► You don't even understand how much we do for you.

00:51:16 ◼   ► And so now they're showing it and saying, all right, here's your cheap plan if you want it to be totally crappy.

00:51:21 ◼   ► And, like, nobody's going to use this tier, although I would argue maybe, like, super high-level apps that are not – their users aren't coming from the App Store.

00:51:38 ◼   ► They're coming from where they are to the App Store to get the app, possibly even by a direct link from the company.

00:51:44 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:51:45 ◼   ► Could do this, right?

00:51:46 ◼   ► They're like, we don't have an audience in the App Store.

00:51:49 ◼   ► We don't care if we have reviews in the App Store.

00:51:51 ◼   ► We don't care about App Store promotion.

00:51:53 ◼   ► People aren't discovering us through the App Store.

00:51:55 ◼   ► They're discovering us because of us, and they have this ability to go down to 5%.

00:51:59 ◼   ► But, like, I just – I want to point out that, like, tier one, it strikes me as being something that is done, one, because they feel like the EU is pressuring them to do something like this.

00:52:09 ◼   ► And, two, though, very importantly, because Apple is trying to make a point about the value incumbent in App Store features that is where they've been taking all that revenue from.

00:52:19 ◼   ► Now, my argument would be I see what you mean, but I don't think it adds up to the classical 30%.

00:52:27 ◼   ► Well, it actually adds up to 8.

00:52:30 ◼   ► 8, yeah.

00:52:32 ◼   ► Right?

00:52:33 ◼   ► It does.

00:52:34 ◼   ► It adds up to 8.

00:52:34 ◼   ► So, where's the rest of the justification?

00:52:35 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:52:36 ◼   ► Right?

00:52:37 ◼   ► Yeah, I know.

00:52:38 ◼   ► But that's what they're trying to do here, and that's, like, my first thought when I saw it was, oh, they're just trying to reinforce the case they've been making all along about the fundamental value of these App Store features.

00:52:47 ◼   ► Well, they're actually now trying to make the case.

00:52:50 ◼   ► It is a case they have not even attempted to make.

00:52:53 ◼   ► No, they just say it.

00:52:55 ◼   ► They just say it.

00:52:55 ◼   ► And now, it's like, these are the things.

00:52:57 ◼   ► And, like, as you say, there are certain types of apps.

00:52:59 ◼   ► This is, like, fine.

00:53:00 ◼   ► And, like, even the automatic app updates thing, that is, like, just, that one is the funniest one to me.

00:53:05 ◼   ► My assumption is you can still update your app, but you would, as a developer, prompt people to go to the App Store.

00:53:15 ◼   ► And some apps do this anyway.

00:53:17 ◼   ► Yeah, you do maybe even a push notification, but you have a notification in the app that says, oh, it's like on the Mac.

00:53:23 ◼   ► Oh, this needs to be updated.

00:53:25 ◼   ► Tap here to go to the App Store to update.

00:53:27 ◼   ► And then you'd tap there, and then you'd do update.

00:53:28 ◼   ► And that's what you would do.

00:53:31 ◼   ► All right, moving on.

00:53:33 ◼   ► The Core Technology Fee is being replaced by the Core Technology Commission.

00:53:38 ◼   ► All developers selling goods via external payment will pay 5% of sales.

00:53:45 ◼   ► Now, that is the line that I have changed multiple times today because some readings of this suggest all developers will pay this.

00:53:55 ◼   ► But I don't think that's accurate.

00:53:58 ◼   ► It's all developers selling goods via external payments.

00:54:02 ◼   ► Whether in or out of the App Store.

00:54:04 ◼   ► Whether in or out of the App Store is, I think, how I read it, too.

00:54:08 ◼   ► Of course, if you're a nonprofit or whatever, you're not charging, and so you aren't covered by any of this.

00:54:13 ◼   ► But this is the old rule was 50 euro cents per install above a million per year.

00:54:20 ◼   ► And what they've done is they've taken that Core Technology Fee tax away.

00:54:25 ◼   ► And that's for everybody because January 1st, people who are on the Core Technology Fee will go through this calendar year on it.

00:54:32 ◼   ► But as of January 1st, they will be moved to this new commission program, which honestly, just from a top level, actually looks more fair.

00:54:42 ◼   ► This makes way more sense.

00:54:43 ◼   ► In the sense, it's no longer a tax on volume.

00:54:46 ◼   ► It's a tax on revenue.

00:54:49 ◼   ► And even there, it's a tax on external and internal revenue based on, like, it's based on the money you generate in your app or outside of your app.

00:55:00 ◼   ► We're back to now we're undermining the previous argument.

00:55:03 ◼   ► The argument of the Core Technology Fee is you were paying for access to Apple's work.

00:55:08 ◼   ► It's API, right?

00:55:12 ◼   ► But if you're a free app, you get it for free now?

00:55:16 ◼   ► So what, I mean, yes.

00:55:17 ◼   ► I think Apple has been inconsistent about this, but I think they've had it both ways.

00:55:24 ◼   ► Because I think Apple has also said from the very beginning, you know, if your app is free, we don't care.

00:55:29 ◼   ► Right?

00:55:30 ◼   ► They don't charge people in the rest of the world for a free app that gets a zillion downloads.

00:55:33 ◼   ► But then they wanted to.

00:55:37 ◼   ► I know.

00:55:37 ◼   ► I know.

00:55:37 ◼   ► Well, I mean, over a million.

00:55:39 ◼   ► And so the argument there is that that's kind of like a proxy.

00:55:42 ◼   ► This feels to me like the EU basically said the Core Technology Fee is untenable.

00:55:48 ◼   ► It does not meet our requirements.

00:55:49 ◼   ► Right?

00:55:50 ◼   ► They said that it's illegal, basically.

00:55:52 ◼   ► It's like you can't do this.

00:55:53 ◼   ► So they're like, okay, it's out.

00:55:54 ◼   ► And the Core Technology Commission, which is based on revenue and not on downloads, is in.

00:56:00 ◼   ► Now, I have found nothing in my research about exactly how this is calculated and reported.

00:56:08 ◼   ► Are we back to you self-report and Apple can audit you?

00:56:12 ◼   ► Yes.

00:56:13 ◼   ► The one of those things linked to, one of those agreement documents linked in the Apple Developer

00:56:18 ◼   ► Post says, you will report and pay this and Apple has, and you must retain all of your

00:56:24 ◼   ► books for three years and Apple has the right to audit you.

00:56:28 ◼   ► So there is this overlap period.

00:56:30 ◼   ► The overlap period is, again, making it hard to work out the numbers in all of this because

00:56:35 ◼   ► some documents still refer to these new terms and the Core Technology Fee because it hasn't

00:56:43 ◼   ► been implemented.

00:56:44 ◼   ► So that's complicated.

00:56:45 ◼   ► But yes.

00:56:45 ◼   ► Because it'll be grandfathered for the next six months and then it's sunset.

00:56:51 ◼   ► Oh my God, stop with these words.

00:56:53 ◼   ► They kill.

00:56:53 ◼   ► So basically, everybody's going to be on the CTC.

00:56:55 ◼   ► But if you're on the CTF now, you can stay on it for six months.

00:56:58 ◼   ► And then, but January 1st, you're on this new thing.

00:57:00 ◼   ► I think there are some weird things going on here.

00:57:03 ◼   ► So one of the things that you pointed out in our notes is one of the real limitations to

00:57:08 ◼   ► free apps leaving the app store and opting into the new EU standards was the Core Technology

00:57:15 ◼   ► Fee could kill them.

00:57:17 ◼   ► And now that won't be the case.

00:57:18 ◼   ► Which is great.

00:57:20 ◼   ► Which means that, yeah, you can put your free apps in app marketplaces.

00:57:24 ◼   ► Also, it's the suggestion here.

00:57:27 ◼   ► And I'm not 100% on this, but it seems like what everybody's reporting is that this is doing

00:57:36 ◼   ► the thing that we thought that they would do all along and that they didn't because they

00:57:40 ◼   ► wanted to erect this kind of like barrier.

00:57:42 ◼   ► Because all of this is about Apple erecting barriers so people don't bother.

00:57:45 ◼   ► One of the barriers was you got to have an app marketplace.

00:57:48 ◼   ► That app marketplace has to have a bank account with a million euro available and all these

00:57:58 ◼   ► things, right?

00:57:59 ◼   ► It seems like now you can also just put your app on the web.

00:58:06 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:58:06 ◼   ► I think you still have to show that you're a business in good standing who's been on the

00:58:11 ◼   ► app store for a while.

00:58:12 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:58:13 ◼   ► But if you do that...

00:58:14 ◼   ► I think you still have to have the line of credit thing.

00:58:15 ◼   ► And you have to have the line of credit.

00:58:16 ◼   ► But what it does mean is you don't have to create a cockamamie app marketplace in order

00:58:21 ◼   ► to directly sell or distribute your app in the EU.

00:58:25 ◼   ► That is dropped.

00:58:27 ◼   ► You don't need to do that.

00:58:28 ◼   ► Which you used to have to do.

00:58:30 ◼   ► It used to be literally the solution to an app store monopoly was an app store duopoly.

00:58:37 ◼   ► Or, you know, basically it was like, well, now you don't have to be in our app store,

00:58:39 ◼   ► but you still have to be in an app store.

00:58:41 ◼   ► And that seems to be wiped away now as well, which I think is great.

00:58:44 ◼   ► Good riddance.

00:58:45 ◼   ► OTJ at MacStore is developers in the EU will be able to offer their apps, not only through

00:58:50 ◼   ► marketplaces, but also their websites.

00:58:52 ◼   ► You have to be a developer in good standing for two consecutive years and obtain a 1 million

00:58:57 ◼   ► euro standby letter of credit and have an app that has more than 1 million first annual

00:59:02 ◼   ► installs on iOS and iPadOS in the prior calendar year.

00:59:07 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:59:08 ◼   ► Which is basically, look, I don't love all of those rules, but one of the things it's trying

00:59:13 ◼   ► to do is prevent fly-by-night scam apps from being available for direct download because

00:59:19 ◼   ► that's scary.

00:59:19 ◼   ► And so they're like, we need to verify that these companies are legit.

00:59:26 ◼   ► And I think most legitimate companies will be able to handle that.

00:59:29 ◼   ► All right.

00:59:31 ◼   ► Developers need to pay a 2% fee for digital goods and services purchased by new users for the

00:59:38 ◼   ► first six months after a user downloads an app.

00:59:42 ◼   ► I don't understand this part either.

00:59:45 ◼   ► So like, this is everyone?

00:59:49 ◼   ► I think it is.

00:59:51 ◼   ► And like, so some language that I've found suggests that some of these fees start over if somebody

01:00:03 ◼   ► deletes and reinstalls your application.

01:00:05 ◼   ► And again, I don't know some of it seemed to, but like, I'm not a hundred percent sure if that

01:00:13 ◼   ► is the core technology commission and this or one or the other, or if it differs, but I don't

01:00:22 ◼   ► know first six months fine.

01:00:26 ◼   ► This is Apple.

01:00:27 ◼   ► So this, this one is Apple saying, if we helped you, you know, our presence with our technology

01:00:34 ◼   ► and our app store and all of that, if we helped you acquire a customer, we, we want to cut

01:00:39 ◼   ► of digital sales, but not forever, just for the first six months, because we consider that part of

01:00:46 ◼   ► your acquisition fee.

01:00:47 ◼   ► I think this is instead of the, you, you know, you will track every transaction.

01:00:53 ◼   ► And like, I think it's a slightly different attempt to claw back some money that they feel

01:00:59 ◼   ► that they're owed.

01:00:59 ◼   ► This feels very, I mean, I'm sure they're trying to plug what they view as a loophole here, but

01:01:03 ◼   ► this feels very petty to me.

01:01:05 ◼   ► The idea that like, oh, well, we're going to charge you because your presence around our

01:01:10 ◼   ► aura granted you money and we want 2% of it back.

01:01:14 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:01:15 ◼   ► Okay.

01:01:16 ◼   ► But all of this means if you are a developer in the app store, right?

01:01:25 ◼   ► Just in the app store.

01:01:26 ◼   ► And you want all of the things the app store can give you by my math, you are now paying

01:01:32 ◼   ► Apple between 18 to 20% per transaction, depending on where that transaction is in the flow.

01:01:40 ◼   ► So somebody becomes an in-app purchase subscriber, you'll pay 20% on that for the first six months

01:01:47 ◼   ► and then 18% on that thereafter.

01:01:49 ◼   ► I can't find the last 10%.

01:01:54 ◼   ► It doesn't seem to exist to me.

01:01:56 ◼   ► Here's what I would say is if you are, I believe, and again, we're trying to parse this too.

01:02:03 ◼   ► And I would, um, I would love to know more about this and we will eventually.

01:02:07 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:02:08 ◼   ► I, I, I didn't get a briefing on this from Apple.

01:02:10 ◼   ► So I, I'm, I'm kind of groping around for information now, but, um, if you are a, a developer

01:02:19 ◼   ► who's got an app in the EU that uses Apple's in-app purchase system, I think it's 13%.

01:02:28 ◼   ► I think, because I think, I think the 2% fee for digital goods or services purchase, oh,

01:02:36 ◼   ► it's new users.

01:02:37 ◼   ► For new users and the, and the, it's all developers selling goods via external payment will pay

01:02:43 ◼   ► 5% of sales.

01:02:44 ◼   ► So, okay.

01:02:46 ◼   ► It's between 13 to 20%.

01:02:48 ◼   ► It's somewhere in there.

01:02:50 ◼   ► It's all over the place, but I think, yeah, basically what they're trying to do is say,

01:02:53 ◼   ► we have set a level that is based on the services we provide.

01:02:57 ◼   ► And then above that, we have a set of optional services.

01:03:01 ◼   ► You can choose or choose not to use.

01:03:04 ◼   ► And the calculations are different, which reads to me again, very much like this seems, this

01:03:11 ◼   ► seems to be more in this, in the spirit of what the EU is trying to get them to do all

01:03:16 ◼   ► along, which is to say, you could choose 5%, you can choose 20%.

01:03:20 ◼   ► It depends on how you want to go.

01:03:23 ◼   ► We're not going to make you choose.

01:03:25 ◼   ► If you want to stay with Apple, we'll have these terms.

01:03:28 ◼   ► If you want to sell somewhere else, the terms are different.

01:03:31 ◼   ► You choose, which is, I think, one of the key arguments that the EU is trying to make is

01:03:37 ◼   ► giving developers choice about what business model they want to use, about what payment system

01:03:42 ◼   ► they want to use, while allowing Apple at least some leeway in terms of the value provided

01:03:48 ◼   ► by their product and their services.

01:03:50 ◼   ► Now, whether that will work or not, and whether the EU is like, no, you're still playing a real

01:03:54 ◼   ► weird game here, I don't know.

01:03:55 ◼   ► But as complex as all of this is, I'm not sure it's any more complex than the regulations it's

01:04:03 ◼   ► trying to match, right?

01:04:04 ◼   ► I feel like this is the complexity that is kind of also inherent in the DMA.

01:04:09 ◼   ► But if we are reading it correctly, there is no situation where you get back to 30%.

01:04:17 ◼   ► I don't think so.

01:04:19 ◼   ► I think this is, I'm hesitant because it seems hard to believe.

01:04:24 ◼   ► But when I first saw all of this, I thought, oh, this boils down to, it's a, it's a, it's

01:04:31 ◼   ► a cut in Apple's cut.

01:04:32 ◼   ► And it varies, but it's not what it was like for everybody, I think is also the way I read

01:04:38 ◼   ► this is for everybody, whether you're in or out of the store.

01:04:41 ◼   ► Cause I think that was one of the things was that they said that like, I think it's like

01:04:45 ◼   ► in January or something, like these new rules get applied to everyone.

01:04:50 ◼   ► Like, yeah, just apply to everyone.

01:04:53 ◼   ► I think so.

01:04:54 ◼   ► Which means that, um, I think that was one of the issues was Apple was holding your, uh,

01:05:00 ◼   ► your Apple account, developer account in the EU hostage by saying, um, you, you keep the

01:05:08 ◼   ► existing terms unless you opt into these new terms, which have a lot of issues with them.

01:05:14 ◼   ► And it seems like, again, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me like now there's

01:05:20 ◼   ► just one set of terms for everybody in the EU when they sell apps there, there's no like

01:05:26 ◼   ► mortal sin you have to commit in order to then sell your app.

01:05:31 ◼   ► Like now it's just like, these are the terms, whether you're in or the out of the app store,

01:05:34 ◼   ► these are the terms.

01:05:35 ◼   ► And if you want to be out, there are some other terms.

01:05:38 ◼   ► By January 1st, 2026, Apple plans to move to a single business model in the EU for all

01:05:44 ◼   ► developers, all developers.

01:05:45 ◼   ► And then it goes on to talk about when we do that, we get rid of the CTF, which is why

01:05:51 ◼   ► you wouldn't have wanted it before.

01:05:52 ◼   ► Cause that was what happened to you.

01:05:53 ◼   ► If you took it, we get rid of that or in the CTC, the CTC applies to goods or services sold

01:05:59 ◼   ► by apps distributed from the app store, web distribution and or alternative marketplaces.

01:06:03 ◼   ► Right.

01:06:04 ◼   ► So the CTC is where Apple has a sliding scale based on in-app purchases, essentially.

01:06:10 ◼   ► Right.

01:06:10 ◼   ► Or digital goods or services.

01:06:15 ◼   ► So basically what it also means is your app price.

01:06:20 ◼   ► If you're selling an app is cut a lot, if you're selling an app direct.

01:06:24 ◼   ► And then if you're doing digital unlocks, even if you're in the app store, like that's where

01:06:30 ◼   ► Apple adds on.

01:06:30 ◼   ► So, so, which again, I think is part of the regulations is basically like, if you want to

01:06:34 ◼   ► use Apple's transaction engine, you pay a fee.

01:06:37 ◼   ► If you don't want to use Apple's transaction engine, you pay a fee.

01:06:42 ◼   ► So we'll see how that goes.

01:06:45 ◼   ► So let me see if this, this question and answer helps or I don't know if it will, but I'm just

01:06:50 ◼   ► trying to give as much as we can here.

01:06:51 ◼   ► Some of the FAQs on this.

01:06:54 ◼   ► Will I need to pay an acquisition fee, an initial acquisition fee or store services fee on subscriptions

01:06:59 ◼   ► that began before I added the entitlement to my app?

01:07:03 ◼   ► No, auto renewals or subscriptions that began before you included, if any, no, this isn't

01:07:10 ◼   ► helpful.

01:07:10 ◼   ► I'm just sort of stopping.

01:07:11 ◼   ► No, I mean, there is, there is some of that, that things, the existing customer relationships

01:07:15 ◼   ► count and aren't, aren't taxed.

01:07:17 ◼   ► You know, if you've got an app already installed, you don't, the clock doesn't start again.

01:07:22 ◼   ► They're not considered a new, new install.

01:07:24 ◼   ► They are an existing install.

01:07:26 ◼   ► There's a lot of detail here that I don't really want to get down in.

01:07:28 ◼   ► It's complicated.

01:07:31 ◼   ► It looks like at a high level, it looks like the terms are better for everybody in the

01:07:37 ◼   ► EU now.

01:07:38 ◼   ► And then there are, there is a complexity that is going to have to be picked through in terms

01:07:44 ◼   ► of, is it?

01:07:46 ◼   ► Cause at the end, what the EU wants is they want developers to be able to choose how they

01:07:52 ◼   ► sell stuff in their apps and Apple offering a deal for using Apple is fine, but Apple can't

01:08:02 ◼   ► make it so, uh, tilted toward Apple's deal that there's no reason not to use Apple's deal,

01:08:10 ◼   ► that Apple's deal is the only one that pencils out.

01:08:12 ◼   ► So that's the, going to be the question is as app developers look through this, the real

01:08:18 ◼   ► question is, does it make sense to use an external payment processor in your app in the EU or does

01:08:23 ◼   ► it not?

01:08:24 ◼   ► Yeah, but because you might not need to anymore cause you're going to get the haircut on like,

01:08:29 ◼   ► you know what?

01:08:29 ◼   ► Like if, if you're going to be paying less, which we think they are, forget it.

01:08:35 ◼   ► You just got yourself a bonus, you know, like, well, I think that's why that, yeah, I don't

01:08:40 ◼   ► know.

01:08:41 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:08:41 ◼   ► I think that's the question.

01:08:42 ◼   ► And then the other question I'd ask, which, um, which came up in our, our discord as well,

01:08:46 ◼   ► which is the, the spite tier is like, are there apps that would just say, yeah, that's

01:08:51 ◼   ► what we want is the spite tier.

01:08:52 ◼   ► Like does Netflix want the spite tier?

01:08:54 ◼   ► Does Spotify want the spite tier?

01:08:57 ◼   ► Because they're like, look, we just don't want to be involved with you.

01:09:00 ◼   ► Um, we, we, you provide no value to us other than we want our

01:09:05 ◼   ► apps on your platform.

01:09:06 ◼   ► Um, maybe, maybe, I don't know, but that, cause I feel like beyond what we've already

01:09:12 ◼   ► outlined here, it really is going to come down to individual developers wondering about

01:09:17 ◼   ► how it affects them and, and seeing how they react to it.

01:09:20 ◼   ► Um, it's an interesting idea.

01:09:24 ◼   ► Uh, it feels more in the spirit of the DMA than the old one, even though it's incredibly

01:09:29 ◼   ► complex.

01:09:30 ◼   ► The DMA is incredibly complex too.

01:09:32 ◼   ► It leads to more complex behavior.

01:09:34 ◼   ► Beyond that, I, I can't tell right now whether an average developer, uh, of an app in the

01:09:41 ◼   ► EU would say, oh, great.

01:09:43 ◼   ► We should say something that, uh, that I don't think we mentioned is all of those steering

01:09:47 ◼   ► things that happened in the U S seem to basically be baked in here too.

01:09:50 ◼   ► Like links aren't like one link with a scare sheet that doesn't impart any data.

01:09:54 ◼   ► You can have tracking parameters.

01:09:56 ◼   ► You can have more than one URL.

01:09:57 ◼   ► Like all that stuff is in there too.

01:09:59 ◼   ► So, um, well that means that they could use that same thing in the EU that they have to

01:10:04 ◼   ► use now in the U S.

01:10:06 ◼   ► I don't know though, if the core technology commission applies to linking out.

01:10:10 ◼   ► I think it does.

01:10:13 ◼   ► So that's not exactly the same as America, right?

01:10:15 ◼   ► Cause currently in the States, there's nothing.

01:10:17 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:10:17 ◼   ► You get, you have to pay them anything.

01:10:19 ◼   ► Right.

01:10:20 ◼   ► Um, so it's not exactly the same, but they've made that part better that if you do choose

01:10:25 ◼   ► to use alternate payments, so you can actually do it in a way that makes sense, which you

01:10:30 ◼   ► kind of couldn't under the previous DMA rules.

01:10:32 ◼   ► So I see the argument that this is very complex and confusing.

01:10:35 ◼   ► It is.

01:10:36 ◼   ► I, I, what I would say is the important thing is how it, how it works in practice for users.

01:10:46 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:10:46 ◼   ► Like business is complex and confusing.

01:10:49 ◼   ► Multinational, you know, international markets, business is complex and confusing.

01:10:55 ◼   ► I don't think, and because of the EU regulations, you know, the EU regulations don't say, Hey,

01:11:01 ◼   ► Apple, just, just lower your rates.

01:11:03 ◼   ► That's not what they say.

01:11:04 ◼   ► They say you need to create an environment where you are treated fairly, but you also allow

01:11:09 ◼   ► other players to give you competition.

01:11:11 ◼   ► It's actually quite complicated.

01:11:13 ◼   ► And Apple's first, first pass at this, I would argue.

01:11:18 ◼   ► And I think a lot of us would argue was a little disingenuous.

01:11:21 ◼   ► They were really trying to sort of like be spiteful and say, we're going to follow the letter

01:11:26 ◼   ► of the law, but not the spirit of the law.

01:11:27 ◼   ► And the EC said, sorry, that's not, you need, you need, you know, what we actually are asking

01:11:33 ◼   ► you to do.

01:11:34 ◼   ► You need to do that.

01:11:35 ◼   ► And this seems to be much closer.

01:11:36 ◼   ► If not that it's closer to that.

01:11:38 ◼   ► Yep.

01:11:39 ◼   ► Um, so what in the long run, I'm not concerned so much about developers dealing with the

01:11:45 ◼   ► complexities of this.

01:11:46 ◼   ► Cause that's like cost of doing business stuff.

01:11:48 ◼   ► It's not great, but it happens.

01:11:49 ◼   ► My question is in the end, does this make, make the user have better outcomes, better choice?

01:12:00 ◼   ► Is that part of this better?

01:12:01 ◼   ► And part of that is also like, do the, do the developers, does this help the developers

01:12:08 ◼   ► business model by creating competition or does it not?

01:12:11 ◼   ► And these are things I, I think we have to wait and see.

01:12:14 ◼   ► And I don't know how long we need to wait.

01:12:18 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:12:19 ◼   ► I don't know what we're waiting for.

01:12:21 ◼   ► Next year.

01:12:22 ◼   ► I don't, I don't know.

01:12:23 ◼   ► There's a lot.

01:12:23 ◼   ► Are we going to get more guidance?

01:12:24 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:12:25 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:12:25 ◼   ► Do we have to wait for someone to cross their fingers and walk into this?

01:12:28 ◼   ► I mean, I think people are going to do that and I think we'll get some stories out of

01:12:33 ◼   ► it and then we'll start to understand this.

01:12:34 ◼   ► Cause I, I think you really need to see an array of developers of different sizes making decisions

01:12:39 ◼   ► to see what's going on here.

01:12:41 ◼   ► And, and, and again, the complexity of the rules isn't what concerns me.

01:12:46 ◼   ► It's the outcome of the decision-making because if all developers say, nope, it still doesn't

01:12:53 ◼   ► make sense.

01:12:54 ◼   ► We're going to just stay with Apple.

01:12:55 ◼   ► Then I think Apple failed.

01:12:57 ◼   ► Apple actually needs to craft this in a way where there is competition and that Apple

01:13:01 ◼   ► is competing on things like its feature set, uh, and the features that it provides.

01:13:06 ◼   ► And that, and I don't know if that's the case or not.

01:13:09 ◼   ► Um, we'll, we will have to watch and see.

01:13:13 ◼   ► And I, the thing that I have, I've mentioned a bunch of times is just the thing that I'm

01:13:17 ◼   ► most interested about is like, if my calculations are correct and the maximum amount that they're

01:13:24 ◼   ► charging is like 20%, well then what?

01:13:30 ◼   ► Right?

01:13:31 ◼   ► Like, what about everywhere else?

01:13:33 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:13:34 ◼   ► So this is like, if, if Apple have been asked to put a value on their services and they have

01:13:40 ◼   ► come to that number, then what?

01:13:43 ◼   ► We'll find out.

01:13:46 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:13:46 ◼   ► Or maybe we won't.

01:13:47 ◼   ► I have no idea anymore.

01:13:48 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:13:49 ◼   ► Here is a recurring theme of the lawyer up segment that, that is a great way to end for

01:13:53 ◼   ► this is never forget that every other region, every other country, every other regulator in

01:13:59 ◼   ► the world is extremely aware of what Apple has built for various laws or court rulings.

01:14:09 ◼   ► In the case of the U S out, everybody else is extremely aware of that.

01:14:14 ◼   ► And although the EU is sort of pioneering this, another thing to say, like Apple may not ever

01:14:19 ◼   ► do this voluntarily, but it would be fairly easy for other countries to say, yeah, do that

01:14:27 ◼   ► here.

01:14:27 ◼   ► Right now that there's a model, because one of Apple's arguments was always, oh, it's like,

01:14:32 ◼   ► it's complicated and technical and it's going to take us a year and please give us time.

01:14:36 ◼   ► And now they can point at the EU and say, I want that.

01:14:40 ◼   ► It's also true that they could point at what's going to happen over the next year in the EU

01:14:43 ◼   ► and say, well, actually, I don't want that.

01:14:45 ◼   ► That's confusing.

01:14:46 ◼   ► And we'll see.

01:14:47 ◼   ► But like, never forget that, that this is a pilot program in a lot of ways for what other

01:14:52 ◼   ► regulation could be.

01:14:53 ◼   ► And so like, if you're Apple, you just leave it at 30% right now, knowing that, you know,

01:14:57 ◼   ► eventually you've got that as a fallback.

01:14:59 ◼   ► And as well as regulators now, because of the way they're doing this, their other constituents,

01:15:06 ◼   ► their developers, they're going to see how much money they could make under these rules

01:15:11 ◼   ► in the EU.

01:15:11 ◼   ► It's true.

01:15:12 ◼   ► And say, well, I would like that everywhere now.

01:15:14 ◼   ► I would like that everywhere.

01:15:15 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:15:16 ◼   ► I mean, it's a possibility.

01:15:17 ◼   ► It's a possibility.

01:15:18 ◼   ► We'll see.

01:15:19 ◼   ► You know, I, I, one question I would have for developers as well is, you know, we talk a

01:15:25 ◼   ► lot about like, oh, the onerous, that percentage and all that.

01:15:28 ◼   ► But the developers we know, a lot of them are like, I just want to stick with Apple.

01:15:33 ◼   ► It's just easy.

01:15:34 ◼   ► I know they take 30% or, or 15%, depending on the size of their business, but it's just

01:15:38 ◼   ► easy.

01:15:39 ◼   ► Their stuff is all integrated with the platform.

01:15:41 ◼   ► I don't have to deal with anything separately.

01:15:42 ◼   ► They handle the, the taxes, like they handle all these things.

01:15:45 ◼   ► Like it's just easier to stay with them.

01:15:47 ◼   ► Um, so I think that's part of this too, is like who wants more complexity and who would

01:15:58 ◼   ► prefer not to have, who would prefer to pay Apple in exchange for not having it be complicated.

01:16:03 ◼   ► And I, I think ultimately that's the competition we want is we want competition where like apples

01:16:10 ◼   ► is better and easier, or you can opt out of apples, go to somebody else's, save some money,

01:16:16 ◼   ► but it'll also be more complicated and harder.

01:16:19 ◼   ► And then everybody can decide what they want and, and depending on your business and depending

01:16:24 ◼   ► on your needs and depending, I mean, honestly on your feeling about whether you as a business

01:16:29 ◼   ► want to handle that additional overhead and complexity, you can decide we're going to go

01:16:35 ◼   ► with the hard way because we want more money or we're going to go with the easy way and pay

01:16:38 ◼   ► Apple what it wants because it's just easier that way.

01:16:41 ◼   ► Because that's, that's value when Apple makes it easy for you, that's not empty.

01:16:44 ◼   ► That's value.

01:16:45 ◼   ► When, when somebody, uh, says, I just want to use Apple's payment system because I just don't

01:16:53 ◼   ► want to be bothered going through the complexity of implementing something else and in certain

01:16:57 ◼   ► markets, et cetera, like, I just don't want to be bothered.

01:16:59 ◼   ► Like that's not a phantom that is value, actual value that Apple is adding by, because they built

01:17:05 ◼   ► this thing up and they've, they've taken care of all of these details and it's easy.

01:17:11 ◼   ► And, um, and so some developers are probably going to opt for that, but, um, we'll see

01:17:17 ◼   ► in the EU how it makes them feel.

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01:18:32 ◼   ► We're going to finish out today with something fun.

01:18:37 ◼   ► Because it is the summer of fun.

01:18:40 ◼   ► Despite all...

01:18:42 ◼   ► I will not have it any other way.

01:18:45 ◼   ► It is the summer of fun.

01:18:46 ◼   ► It is.

01:18:47 ◼   ► I went to the movies.

01:18:48 ◼   ► I went to the movies.

01:18:49 ◼   ► Yay.

01:18:50 ◼   ► For this show.

01:18:51 ◼   ► Spoiler free thoughts and reviews of F1, the movie.

01:18:55 ◼   ► I just wanted to talk about it.

01:18:58 ◼   ► I wrote a little review on the train home after going to see the movie.

01:19:03 ◼   ► I saw it in the IMAX in London, which is just one of those absolutely behemoth-sized screens.

01:19:11 ◼   ► It's one of the cinemas where they can show the 70mm prints.

01:19:15 ◼   ► I saw Oppenheimer there.

01:19:17 ◼   ► I will see The Odyssey there when that comes.

01:19:22 ◼   ► Sure.

01:19:23 ◼   ► One, I prefer...

01:19:25 ◼   ► There's a cinema chain here called Everyman, which is the closest we have to the Alamo experience.

01:19:32 ◼   ► This is not a great cinema.

01:19:34 ◼   ► The concessions and the seats and stuff are not great at this IMAX, but the screen, the sound system is incredible.

01:19:41 ◼   ► And seeing this movie, huge screen, huge loud sound system, that's the way to see this movie.

01:19:47 ◼   ► If you're going to go see it, I would say try and go to the biggest, loudest screen that you can.

01:19:52 ◼   ► You will appreciate it because this is just straight up action movie.

01:19:57 ◼   ► It is like action movies that they don't make anymore.

01:20:01 ◼   ► You know what I mean?

01:20:02 ◼   ► Well, unless they're made by Tom Cruise.

01:20:03 ◼   ► That's who makes these movies.

01:20:06 ◼   ► This is not your big, heady Oscar contender.

01:20:12 ◼   ► This is straight up action star in a fast car going fast and sometimes crashing them.

01:20:21 ◼   ► And that's what you're getting.

01:20:23 ◼   ► And you know what, Jason?

01:20:25 ◼   ► It's just what I wanted.

01:20:26 ◼   ► This movie, I loved it.

01:20:30 ◼   ► I loved it.

01:20:31 ◼   ► I will start off by saying, you may say to me, Mike, I'm not a fan of F1.

01:20:35 ◼   ► I don't understand it.

01:20:36 ◼   ► You don't need to.

01:20:38 ◼   ► They do a really great job of giving you everything you need.

01:20:42 ◼   ► You get all of the context, right?

01:20:44 ◼   ► Like, do you understand how, if you've watched Top Gun, you don't need to know how fighter planes work.

01:20:52 ◼   ► You don't need to know that before you see the movie.

01:20:53 ◼   ► Good point.

01:20:54 ◼   ► You don't need that for F1.

01:20:55 ◼   ► Like, they do a really good job of explaining in dialogue and in commentary and in, like, TV reports, right?

01:21:05 ◼   ► Of what is happening.

01:21:06 ◼   ► It's very well done.

01:21:08 ◼   ► They learned this from Drive to Survive, I think.

01:21:11 ◼   ► Where, like, Drive to Survive gives people enough context to learn how the sport works.

01:21:15 ◼   ► And they brought some of that mentality into this movie.

01:21:18 ◼   ► What you get is fast cars shot with great cameras.

01:21:24 ◼   ► It's incredible.

01:21:26 ◼   ► The story, so simple.

01:21:28 ◼   ► It's ham-fisted.

01:21:29 ◼   ► It doesn't do a great job of representing everyone.

01:21:32 ◼   ► It does a bad job of representing some people.

01:21:34 ◼   ► But it gets the job done.

01:21:35 ◼   ► Like, for what they're attempting to do with a story, it gets the job done.

01:21:39 ◼   ► The performances from everyone are good.

01:21:41 ◼   ► You know, everyone does a good job.

01:21:43 ◼   ► There are, of course, things that if you're an F1 fan, that just aren't correct.

01:21:47 ◼   ► Or, like, they stretch reality.

01:21:49 ◼   ► But I expected that.

01:21:51 ◼   ► But what I got as a fan of the sport is they treat you with respect.

01:21:54 ◼   ► Like, the sport is revered and treated with respect.

01:21:57 ◼   ► And that I really appreciated.

01:21:59 ◼   ► I love this movie.

01:22:02 ◼   ► I really recommend you go see it because it's just a good time.

01:22:05 ◼   ► And it's performing well so far.

01:22:07 ◼   ► It had $144 million open in weekend.

01:22:09 ◼   ► So it's doing well, right?

01:22:12 ◼   ► Which is great.

01:22:13 ◼   ► Now, all of the, you know, you'll see lots of reports, right?

01:22:16 ◼   ► That, like, okay.

01:22:17 ◼   ► But it's still got to make, like, $700 million to break even.

01:22:21 ◼   ► Like, with the way that they think about these things.

01:22:24 ◼   ► You take your budget, which is anywhere between $250 and $300, depending on what you're asking.

01:22:27 ◼   ► And you double it.

01:22:28 ◼   ► And then some for the marketing.

01:22:30 ◼   ► And Apple have done a lot of marketing.

01:22:31 ◼   ► But I've seen some other point which makes perfect sense to me.

01:22:34 ◼   ► Like, well, you're judging Apple with, like, the existing film model.

01:22:38 ◼   ► Which is not, you can't, right?

01:22:41 ◼   ► They don't need it, right?

01:22:42 ◼   ► Like, if Universal were putting out this movie, if it didn't do $700 million, they'd be in trouble.

01:22:51 ◼   ► That would be bad for them.

01:22:52 ◼   ► Because that, they put, it would have been a huge investment, this movie, right?

01:22:56 ◼   ► Massive investment, huge budget.

01:22:57 ◼   ► This isn't so important to Apple.

01:22:59 ◼   ► I think if this movie makes back its budget, just like its production budget, great.

01:23:04 ◼   ► Because it goes on the service.

01:23:05 ◼   ► They've done their thing.

01:23:06 ◼   ► That marketing is also marketing for Apple TV, eventually, as well, right?

01:23:10 ◼   ► So, like, it's multi-channel.

01:23:12 ◼   ► It's making Apple look cool.

01:23:13 ◼   ► There's a bunch of pictures of Lewis Hamilton and Brad Pitt standing with Tim Cook.

01:23:17 ◼   ► Like, everyone's having a good time.

01:23:18 ◼   ► This opening to $144 million is great.

01:23:22 ◼   ► Because there was a real concern that this was going to bomb.

01:23:25 ◼   ► All the experts say this is a good opening.

01:23:27 ◼   ► And they also suspect that it'll have legs.

01:23:29 ◼   ► And the reason for that is, it's a spectacle.

01:23:31 ◼   ► And it was very busy in week one.

01:23:34 ◼   ► But that means that some people couldn't get a good seat, couldn't get a ticket to IMAX,

01:23:37 ◼   ► couldn't get a ticket to 70mm.

01:23:39 ◼   ► And have decided they'll wait because they want the experience.

01:23:43 ◼   ► So, the feeling, the perception, at least, among analysts of box office is that this will probably have legs.

01:23:49 ◼   ► Because, like, there are other movies that have performed like this.

01:23:53 ◼   ► I think Oppenheimer is a good example of that.

01:23:55 ◼   ► Yes.

01:23:55 ◼   ► There are, when you pack them in at IMAX, what ends up happening is you don't lose that viewer.

01:24:02 ◼   ► They just get a ticket for the next week or whatever because they want to see it in the spectacle.

01:24:06 ◼   ► And they're willing to wait to see it in a good theater.

01:24:08 ◼   ► And so, I think that'll be part of the effect here.

01:24:10 ◼   ► And I think people that are talking about it, like me right now, talk about it in those terms of, like, go to a premium format theater and see it.

01:24:19 ◼   ► Like, the best that you can get.

01:24:20 ◼   ► Like, I have friends, like Stephen, for example, he is not seeing it until this week because he wanted to get to a good theater and he couldn't get tickets.

01:24:27 ◼   ► Right.

01:24:27 ◼   ► So, like, I think that is, like, the way that people are treating this movie.

01:24:31 ◼   ► Again, like you say, just like Oppenheimer.

01:24:33 ◼   ► And Oppenheimer made a ton.

01:24:34 ◼   ► It's not going to make Oppenheimer money.

01:24:36 ◼   ► But, like, it made a lot of money over a long period of time because people wanted to see it in the best screen that they could see it in.

01:24:42 ◼   ► And this film warrants that.

01:24:45 ◼   ► I think it's, you go into it wanting to see a fun kind of dumb action movie with a lot of, like, heart racing, adrenaline pumping moments.

01:24:55 ◼   ► It's exactly what you, like, this movie delivers on the exact premise it's set up.

01:25:01 ◼   ► Right.

01:25:01 ◼   ► You took the director of Top Gun Maverick, you put him with Brad Pitt, and actually filmed cars going around tracks.

01:25:10 ◼   ► It delivers on all of that.

01:25:12 ◼   ► Like, it's a great movie.

01:25:14 ◼   ► I loved it.

01:25:14 ◼   ► I was very happy.

01:25:15 ◼   ► Awesome.

01:25:15 ◼   ► Thank you for the report.

01:25:17 ◼   ► I recommend people go see it.

01:25:19 ◼   ► Let's finish out with a couple of Ask Upgrade questions before we finish today's show.

01:25:23 ◼   ► Matt wants to know, what would be your use case for the iPad mini?

01:25:28 ◼   ► And is it a good buy in 2025?

01:25:31 ◼   ► I'm struggling with whoever to get the 13-inch iPad Pro, with its display technology and everything good.

01:25:36 ◼   ► But I primarily, but primarily use it docked in the Magic Keyboard.

01:25:42 ◼   ► You're the iPad mini user, you tell me.

01:25:45 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:25:46 ◼   ► So, okay.

01:25:47 ◼   ► What Matt's saying, and I don't think I did a very good job of reading that question, is that Matt uses the 13-inch iPad Pro and loves it, but uses it in the Magic Keyboard all the time.

01:25:56 ◼   ► And so I have this problem too, right?

01:25:58 ◼   ► Like, now I ended up, I got the Magic Keyboard from my iPad, and now it's in the Magic Keyboard all the time because you don't want to keep, I don't want to keep switching cases all the time.

01:26:07 ◼   ► I know you do that, Jason, but I find that annoying.

01:26:09 ◼   ► And so then you've kind of, like, made your iPad a laptop, what would be the case for the iPad mini?

01:26:14 ◼   ► The iPad mini is, like, the best iPad, just for what an iPad is, that I think exists, in the sense of content consumption device.

01:26:27 ◼   ► Like, it is fantastic for reading and watching because the screen is nice, it's, like, what, seven, eight inches is big enough for all of those things, for, like, personal use, and it's tiny.

01:26:39 ◼   ► So I think, like, for reading books, for watching video, all that stuff, like, if you just want an iPad to consume media, I think it is a great pick.

01:26:51 ◼   ► Then, anything bigger, you maybe want to do a bit more of it.

01:26:54 ◼   ► Like, you know, you could even say, like, the iPad Air would work.

01:26:57 ◼   ► It's like, yeah, sure, but it's a bit bigger, which might be good, but also becomes awkward, right?

01:27:02 ◼   ► Like, if you want to read a lot on your iPad, I feel like the iPad mini is probably the best one because it's the easy, you can hold it in one hand, like, really easily, where the other iPads, not as comfortable, right?

01:27:13 ◼   ► Like, it's the size of a Kindle, basically, right?

01:27:15 ◼   ► So, like, I think if you just want an iPad, purely for media, this is the one, so I have an iPad mini, and we're now using ours on a stand in the nursery, and it's perfect.

01:27:27 ◼   ► So, like, you're sitting in the nursery, sitting on the nursing chair in the nursery, but, like, you know, as you know, I might be nursing, I might be trying to get the baby to go to sleep, or might be contact napping, and I can watch things on the iPad.

01:27:38 ◼   ► We use it as a white noise machine.

01:27:40 ◼   ► Like, it's just, like, a very simple device, but because it's small, it's easy to move around.

01:27:44 ◼   ► It's, like, a great iPad.

01:27:45 ◼   ► I don't think you could work on an iPad mini.

01:27:47 ◼   ► I'm sure some people do, but I don't think it'd be a very comfortable experience.

01:27:51 ◼   ► I think this is purely, like, if you just want an iPad, just to watch, read, that kind of stuff, this one's, like, it's perfect, I think, for that.

01:27:59 ◼   ► That sounds about right.

01:28:00 ◼   ► I mean, I do all those things on an iPad Pro.

01:28:03 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:28:03 ◼   ► Not in a keyboard case.

01:28:05 ◼   ► I don't switch all the time, I should say, between the cases.

01:28:08 ◼   ► I leave it in the cover.

01:28:11 ◼   ► Yes.

01:28:12 ◼   ► And if I want to enter, you know, typing, which is basically writing mode for me, then I put it in the Magic Keyboard.

01:28:20 ◼   ► And then I'm in laptop mode for a while.

01:28:22 ◼   ► And then when I'm done, I take it back out.

01:28:24 ◼   ► Like, it doesn't live in there, generally.

01:28:28 ◼   ► And that's how I've chosen to do it.

01:28:30 ◼   ► And that means that I get that thin and light iPad, and even though it's the 13, it's pretty great doing that.

01:28:36 ◼   ► But I totally understand if you're getting a second one.

01:28:39 ◼   ► The media consumption angle is the best angle.

01:28:41 ◼   ► Like, it's just little, and it's the size, yeah, it is.

01:28:44 ◼   ► It's the size of a Kindle, and it'll do whatever an iPad can do.

01:28:47 ◼   ► That's pretty cool.

01:28:49 ◼   ► And Greg asks, I'm traveling from London to Denmark soon.

01:28:52 ◼   ► I'm curious what power adaptors or converters you use.

01:28:55 ◼   ► I'm traveling with my family, so we will have iPhones, a MacBook Air, iPads, and a couple of battery banks.

01:29:01 ◼   ► Do you have travel charging?

01:29:05 ◼   ► Do you have, like, travel charging recommendations?

01:29:07 ◼   ► So most of the chargers you've got in your house are, and you can look and see, but they handle international power.

01:29:21 ◼   ► And that's so that they only have to make one.

01:29:23 ◼   ► The plug might be, if Greg's in the U.S., the plug might be a U.S. plug.

01:29:29 ◼   ► But they make that same charger or, you know, charging block for the whole world.

01:29:37 ◼   ► And then there's just a different cord on the end for whatever you're in.

01:29:43 ◼   ► So if your charger supports international power, just get some plug adapters.

01:29:49 ◼   ► That's all you need to do.

01:29:51 ◼   ► And so when I travel internationally, I bring our chargers that we have with plug adapters, and that's it.

01:29:58 ◼   ► Because it used to be that there were a lot, and there's still a few out there.

01:30:02 ◼   ► Like, remember, the Apple made the little teeny tiny, the teeny tiny charging plug for the iPhone with the U.S. plugs on it, just the two sticks.

01:30:10 ◼   ► Like, that doesn't work anywhere else in the world, right?

01:30:13 ◼   ► That old one.

01:30:13 ◼   ► Because it was made to be teeny tiny and only work in the U.S. on the U.S. plugs.

01:30:17 ◼   ► But most, and check before you do this, but almost any modern tech products charger is going to be international.

01:30:27 ◼   ► And all you need to do is, like, go on Amazon and buy a three-pack of little plastic plug adapters for wherever you're going, and it all works fine.

01:30:35 ◼   ► That's the beauty of modern stuff is it all just works fine.

01:30:40 ◼   ► And once it's like a USB charger, it's just USB at that point, and it's all fine.

01:30:44 ◼   ► So we bring a couple of USB-based chargers.

01:30:48 ◼   ► I've got one that I can't even remember the name of it now, but it's, like, it comes with a little suction cup block, too, because the last one we had, you plug it into an outlet and plug all your cables in, and then it would fall out of the outlet.

01:31:02 ◼   ► Especially if it's on a plug adapter, sticking out, hanging in space.

01:31:06 ◼   ► So there's stuff like that.

01:31:08 ◼   ► But, like, basically, I'm a real believer in plug adapters for international travel.

01:31:13 ◼   ► And beyond that, like, if your home setup isn't conducive to travel, think about upgrading.

01:31:22 ◼   ► You know, you can get something just for travel, or you could get something that upgrades your current use at home, and then you could use it when you travel, and then bring it back to home.

01:31:32 ◼   ► And that might be nice, too, because then you've upgraded your home charging, and it's appropriate for travel.

01:31:37 ◼   ► But, like, we literally, I charge, I travel with one, maybe two chargers, really depending on if I'm bringing my laptop or not.

01:31:46 ◼   ► And Lauren travels with one.

01:31:49 ◼   ► And if we're traveling internationally, I bring the plug adapters, and I keep those in a drawer.

01:31:53 ◼   ► I've got the Europe plug adapters.

01:31:55 ◼   ► I've got the UK plug adapters.

01:31:56 ◼   ► I've got the New Zealand plug adapters.

01:31:58 ◼   ► It's fine.

01:31:59 ◼   ► It's all good, because almost everything out there is going to handle international, you know, electrical standards.

01:32:06 ◼   ► I'm going to make a specific set of recommendations for, like, a travel kit, but I do want to add on what you're saying.

01:32:13 ◼   ► One thing that I will suggest to people traveling to the US is if your country has larger plugs, like we do here in the UK, using, like, the adapters that you can buy in the airport sometimes doesn't work for you because the plug's going to fall out the wall because it becomes too heavy.

01:32:35 ◼   ► Right.

01:32:35 ◼   ► So in that scenario, you want to try and get one of the charger-type things that Jason's mentioning where you can pop the heads off.

01:32:42 ◼   ► Because if you take, say, like, the UK plug and put it into, like, one of the, like, international converters that you might get in an airport and then plug that into the wall, often they will fall out.

01:32:53 ◼   ► They'll fall right out, yeah.

01:32:54 ◼   ► Because they become too heavy and they get unweighted.

01:32:57 ◼   ► So I recommend...

01:32:58 ◼   ► You get something with, like, a suction cup thing or you can get...

01:33:00 ◼   ► What really would be useful is a little cord that was a plug adapter, but I don't know if they make those.

01:33:07 ◼   ► Some companies do where you just change the cord.

01:33:11 ◼   ► But my recommendation is twofold.

01:33:13 ◼   ► It starts with a charger from a company called Minix or Mini-X.

01:33:21 ◼   ► They make a tiny 100-watt charger, like, a power adapter.

01:33:28 ◼   ► It comes in the box with a selection of international plugs.

01:33:34 ◼   ► It just comes with it.

01:33:36 ◼   ► And you get three USB-C ports, two that can do up to 100-watt, one that does up to 20, and a USB-A port.

01:33:45 ◼   ► You take one of the USB-C ports and you plug into it something like the Mophie 3-in-1 travel charger.

01:33:54 ◼   ► The Mophie 3-in-1 travel charger will charge your iPhone, your Apple Watch, and your AirPods.

01:34:01 ◼   ► Then you have another three USB ports available to you to charge other devices.

01:34:09 ◼   ► So when I travel, I take this one thing, and I can charge everything.

01:34:15 ◼   ► Because you can have this one little bedside thing where you put your three main devices.

01:34:20 ◼   ► Then you've got two other USB-C ports that you could have to charge an iPad, to charge a laptop.

01:34:25 ◼   ► And then you also have a USB-A port to charge something else.

01:34:29 ◼   ► These two products are my recommendation for any travel.

01:34:33 ◼   ► So you should check them out, because I think they're good.

01:34:36 ◼   ► All right?

01:34:38 ◼   ► If you would like to send in your question for us to answer in a future episode of the show,

01:34:42 ◼   ► or you also want to send in some feedback or follow-up, go to upgradefeedback.com.

01:34:47 ◼   ► Thank you to our members who support us at Upgrade+.

01:34:49 ◼   ► We're going to talk about the F1 push notifications, I think.

01:34:53 ◼   ► I think so.

01:34:54 ◼   ► A little bit more in Upgrade Plus today.

01:34:56 ◼   ► Go to getupgradeplus.com.

01:34:58 ◼   ► If you want to find us on video, you want to see what eyeglasses we're wearing,

01:35:02 ◼   ► just go to YouTube and search for the Upgrade Podcast.

01:35:04 ◼   ► I would like to thank Ecamm and Sentry for their support of this week's episode.

01:35:09 ◼   ► But most of all, thank you for listening.

01:35:11 ◼   ► Until next time, say goodbye, Jason Snow.

01:35:14 ◼   ► Goodbye, Mike Hurley.

01:35:23 ◼   ► Bye.

01:35:24 ◼   ► Bye.