ATP

00:00:00 ◼   ► We should dive right in, and we should cover something really important.

00:00:03 ◼   ► John, how do you like your new Switch 2?

00:00:05 ◼   ► Oh, it's nice.

00:00:07 ◼   ► That's all you have to say for it, is it's nice?

00:00:10 ◼   ► Well, interestingly, I had a little bit of excitement on the delivery that I was supposed to,

00:00:14 ◼   ► I think I was supposed to get a day of, but I didn't because Target is bad,

00:00:18 ◼   ► and they felt bad about it and then refunded all of my shipping, so it was nice.

00:00:22 ◼   ► Oh, that's good.

00:00:23 ◼   ► Anyway, yeah.

00:00:25 ◼   ► I mean, the only thing I've done with it is fiddled around in the updated versions of the Zelda games

00:00:30 ◼   ► and then, of course, played Mario Kart World, and I don't know.

00:00:33 ◼   ► The jury's still out of Mario Kart World.

00:00:35 ◼   ► I'm not sure about the new jumping on stuff and grinding mechanics,

00:00:38 ◼   ► but maybe just because I'm bad at it so far.

00:00:40 ◼   ► Yeah, I had the exact same reaction on both counts.

00:00:42 ◼   ► Like, I don't know about this, but I bet it's because I suck at it, and that's the real issue.

00:00:47 ◼   ► Yeah, I'm very much used to the much more traditional Mario Kart 8 courses

00:00:53 ◼   ► that are much more like the earlier 3D Mario courses, whereas these,

00:00:57 ◼   ► it's not the fact that it's open world.

00:00:59 ◼   ► I just feel like the courses are designed a little bit differently.

00:01:01 ◼   ► Like, there shouldn't be water on Rainbow Road.

00:01:03 ◼   ► I'm going to go out and say that.

00:01:04 ◼   ► No water on Rainbow Road.

00:01:06 ◼   ► Why?

00:01:07 ◼   ► Like, what's, why?

00:01:08 ◼   ► Because it's supposed, Rainbow Road is supposed to be a Rainbow Road,

00:01:11 ◼   ► and it's like, okay, but in Mario Kart World, every track has a water section.

00:01:16 ◼   ► I'm like, no, Rainbow Road should not have a water section.

00:01:18 ◼   ► Okay, why?

00:01:21 ◼   ► I saw, I don't know, tradition.

00:01:22 ◼   ► Somebody had noted that it's not Rainbow Road anymore or something like that.

00:01:25 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah.

00:01:25 ◼   ► I haven't seen this myself.

00:01:26 ◼   ► Is this, is this a political kowtowing?

00:01:29 ◼   ► Because if so, I'm not here for it.

00:01:31 ◼   ► No, like, I just think everything, they said like everything's different in this one or whatever.

00:01:34 ◼   ► Anyway, I mostly like it, but yeah, the hardware is nice.

00:01:36 ◼   ► I actually have a, we should, we'll talk about Switch 2 at some point in a future show,

00:01:40 ◼   ► because I have a lot of things to say about the hardware and setup experience,

00:01:43 ◼   ► and I'm sure you do too, but we don't have time for that today.

00:01:45 ◼   ► Yeah, that's fine.

00:01:46 ◼   ► I will say, so we got ours on launch day, and the Switch 2 entered the house,

00:01:52 ◼   ► and then it was basically, Declan basically said, well, this is mine now, and ran away.

00:01:58 ◼   ► Did you expect otherwise?

00:01:59 ◼   ► No, I didn't.

00:02:00 ◼   ► And I'm exaggerating.

00:02:01 ◼   ► He didn't actually say that, but that was kind of the net effect of what happened.

00:02:05 ◼   ► And I can tell you, when I was 10 years old, and I saw a new Nintendo enter the house,

00:02:08 ◼   ► I did the exact same thing, to Marco's point.

00:02:10 ◼   ► But anyways, my, I've only had maybe half an hour, an hour of playtime with it.

00:02:14 ◼   ► I love the hardware.

00:02:17 ◼   ► I feel like it fixed pretty much any wrong with our original Switch.

00:02:20 ◼   ► I have not, we had never upgraded past the original 2017 Switch.

00:02:24 ◼   ► So I never had an OLED Switch or anything like that.

00:02:27 ◼   ► We never had any of the ones that doesn't mount in the dock.

00:02:30 ◼   ► What is that, a Switch Lite or something like that?

00:02:32 ◼   ► So this is quite an upgrade.

00:02:35 ◼   ► I feel like the graphics fidelity, again, as someone who only has a Switch in the house,

00:02:40 ◼   ► is great.

00:02:41 ◼   ► I am really digging that.

00:02:43 ◼   ► Everything looks awesome on Mario Kart World, and that's basically the only thing I've played.

00:02:46 ◼   ► And then this is the first time that anyone in the house, including me,

00:02:50 ◼   ► has done gameplay with online and live chat.

00:02:54 ◼   ► And so the Switch 2 has game chat where you can connect with a friend and play with a friend

00:03:00 ◼   ► and so on and so forth.

00:03:01 ◼   ► And I've been listening to Declan doing Mario Kart World with a friend of his,

00:03:05 ◼   ► who's also a rising fifth grader.

00:03:06 ◼   ► And hearing, if nothing else, this Switch was worth the cost to hear the ridiculous vocabulary

00:03:13 ◼   ► that he uses.

00:03:14 ◼   ► And I don't mean like colorful expletives or anything like that.

00:03:16 ◼   ► But, and I can't even think of a specific example, but there's, I've never heard Declan

00:03:19 ◼   ► say the word bro more times.

00:03:21 ◼   ► Oh, God, yeah.

00:03:22 ◼   ► Welcome to that era.

00:03:23 ◼   ► Right?

00:03:24 ◼   ► And so it is hilarious witnessing this happen.

00:03:28 ◼   ► But no, so far, so very, very good.

00:03:30 ◼   ► I am really, really impressed with it.

00:03:32 ◼   ► Really, really dig it.

00:03:33 ◼   ► And, and I am excited that we should talk about it more another time.

00:03:39 ◼   ► So then we start with the, uh, cheesy Apple video that leads us into WWDC.

00:03:44 ◼   ► So I was setting myself up.

00:03:47 ◼   ► I was bracing myself for this.

00:03:49 ◼   ► I thought it was going to be an utter disaster.

00:03:52 ◼   ► And oftentimes they're cutesy and silly and they win me over just barely the, the, uh,

00:03:59 ◼   ► parachuting out of the plane example, which I believe was last year that won me over more

00:04:03 ◼   ► than just barely, but not by a lot.

00:04:04 ◼   ► This one starts with hair force one, Craig Federighi driving an F one car around the top

00:04:09 ◼   ► of Apple park.

00:04:10 ◼   ► And I was sold from frame three.

00:04:12 ◼   ► I was all in, I was loving every second of it, which really pains me to admit.

00:04:17 ◼   ► Cause I know I should be all, man, that's dang, but, uh, I loved it.

00:04:21 ◼   ► And when he took off the helmet at the end and his like, uh, his ridiculous hair, well,

00:04:26 ◼   ► his hair isn't normally ridiculous, but in this context, his hair was like a foot and

00:04:29 ◼   ► a half tall and it was so stupid.

00:04:33 ◼   ► And I loved every second of it.

00:04:34 ◼   ► I thought it was hilarious.

00:04:35 ◼   ► I'm guessing though, that I am the only one that felt that way.

00:04:38 ◼   ► Well, I mean, I think it was so, okay.

00:04:41 ◼   ► Going into this, I did feel a little, you know, a little conflicted, you know, cause like

00:04:47 ◼   ► part of me going into this is all of my angst about Apple's relationship with developers

00:04:52 ◼   ► right now.

00:04:52 ◼   ► Part of it was, you know, my kind of disappointment as a, as an Apple commentator in the state of

00:04:58 ◼   ► Apple intelligence leading into this.

00:05:00 ◼   ► But also I am a developer and WBC is exciting.

00:05:04 ◼   ► And because there's always like, there's always stuff that allows me to make my app better or

00:05:08 ◼   ► make my life, make my life as a developer easier or, you know, opens up new markets or whatever.

00:05:13 ◼   ► So it's always exciting.

00:05:15 ◼   ► And by the end of this, I was very excited, but at the beginning, I still was kind of like,

00:05:20 ◼   ► Oh, I don't know how this is going to go today.

00:05:22 ◼   ► No, I'm sorry.

00:05:22 ◼   ► At the beginning of the whole event or the beginning of the video?

00:05:25 ◼   ► The beginning of the whole event.

00:05:25 ◼   ► Okay.

00:05:26 ◼   ► When this video played.

00:05:27 ◼   ► Just making sure.

00:05:29 ◼   ► And, you know, and so, so it was, I feel like they had to set the tone.

00:05:35 ◼   ► And one thing we said last week is, you know, we, we did not expect them to set the tone

00:05:39 ◼   ► with anything but projecting a hundred percent confidence.

00:05:44 ◼   ► So they were not going to set the tone by addressing court cases or the developer relationship

00:05:49 ◼   ► or Apple intelligence being delayed from last year.

00:05:52 ◼   ► They were going to, they were not going to set the tone from any of that.

00:05:55 ◼   ► They were going to set the tone the way they always do.

00:05:58 ◼   ► And that's what this video did.

00:05:59 ◼   ► They set the tone with a cheesy, like ridiculously over the top, insanely overproduced and probably

00:06:07 ◼   ► very expensive video showing off Craig and Tim doing something kind of dumb and kind of funny.

00:06:15 ◼   ► And that's, that's what they always do.

00:06:17 ◼   ► They succeeded.

00:06:18 ◼   ► I liked it as much as I always like it, which is like, I guess that was, you know, a good opportunity

00:06:26 ◼   ► to like set up my notes window and resize windows on my desktop.

00:06:29 ◼   ► You know, before I actually had to start paying attention more closely.

00:06:31 ◼   ► But, you know, they had fun with it.

00:06:33 ◼   ► It's almost like, you know, oh, how cute.

00:06:36 ◼   ► Good for you.

00:06:36 ◼   ► You guys had fun.

00:06:37 ◼   ► It was well executed, but I feel like I was kind of in the same place.

00:06:41 ◼   ► Not that I was expecting anything, you know, conciliatory or any recognition whatsoever

00:06:46 ◼   ► that there's any problem with the relationship between Apple and developers.

00:06:48 ◼   ► But they could have gone in another direction to at least do something developer focused.

00:06:54 ◼   ► And I think the thing that bothered me the most about this, it certainly isn't the execution,

00:06:58 ◼   ► which is really good.

00:06:58 ◼   ► It was clever and it was well done.

00:06:59 ◼   ► And I liked how they integrated their products with the loud noise and stuff.

00:07:02 ◼   ► It was the fact that it was an ad, essentially a side door ad for their new movie.

00:07:07 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:07:07 ◼   ► And there's just, there's so much Apple TV media promotion in WWDC already for the opening video

00:07:15 ◼   ► to be like advertising their F1 movie.

00:07:18 ◼   ► That has nothing to do with, I give it to, you can put it in the keynote, you can put

00:07:22 ◼   ► it in the keynote in the Apple TV section, but the intro movie, it basically, if there was

00:07:27 ◼   ► no F1 movie, I think I wouldn't have, wouldn't have had this complaint.

00:07:29 ◼   ► Cause I would have been like, oh, a fun thing where imagine driving a car on top of a park,

00:07:32 ◼   ► isn't that funny?

00:07:33 ◼   ► But it's, it's a movie tie-in.

00:07:35 ◼   ► So anyway, I wasn't too grumpy about it, but that's the one, the one thing that bothered

00:07:39 ◼   ► me about it surprisingly is that it was an ad for a movie.

00:07:41 ◼   ► And we'll see more ads later, but that's all right.

00:07:43 ◼   ► So we start with Apple intelligence where they say we are looking forward to sharing

00:07:47 ◼   ► more about high quality Siri.

00:07:49 ◼   ► That's not how they said it, but whatever they meant, you know, the, the new Siri in the coming

00:07:52 ◼   ► year.

00:07:53 ◼   ► And they quickly announced they're opening up access for any app to tap directly into the

00:07:57 ◼   ► on-device LLM that's core to Apple intelligence.

00:08:00 ◼   ► Actually, before we move on from that first part, this is the one thing that I did have time

00:08:03 ◼   ► to, to grab down.

00:08:05 ◼   ► This is as close as they got to acknowledging that a lot of the stuff they announced at last

00:08:13 ◼   ► year's WWDC, they did not ship a fact that we all know.

00:08:15 ◼   ► So it's not like, you know, they need to say, we all know, they know, and we know, we know

00:08:19 ◼   ► that you're like, whatever.

00:08:20 ◼   ► Right.

00:08:20 ◼   ► So, but this is as close as they got to acknowledging that.

00:08:25 ◼   ► And this is direct quote from, I believe it was Federighi saying this, uh, he said, and as

00:08:32 ◼   ► we've shared, there's that, as we've shared part to say, we've already told you this.

00:08:36 ◼   ► So you already know this.

00:08:37 ◼   ► So this is not new information, but we are actually going to remind you, which I think this

00:08:42 ◼   ► is the, the one concession to reality that Apple is going to remind you of a thing that

00:08:46 ◼   ► you already know just because not to say anything out of it would be weird.

00:08:50 ◼   ► So anyway, and as we've shared, we're continuing our work to deliver the features that make Siri

00:08:55 ◼   ► even more personal.

00:08:56 ◼   ► This work needed more time to reach our high quality bar.

00:08:59 ◼   ► And we look forward to sharing more about it in the coming year.

00:09:01 ◼   ► That's it.

00:09:02 ◼   ► That's as close as you're going to get this whole presentation to acknowledging the fact

00:09:06 ◼   ► that last year's, the Apple intelligence announcement on those features in particular, the ones that

00:09:11 ◼   ► everybody wanted, like making Siri better, did not ship.

00:09:13 ◼   ► That's as close as you get in the whole presentation.

00:09:15 ◼   ► Even later when they start talking about Swift assist and everything, I don't think you get

00:09:19 ◼   ► any closer than that to saying, yeah, isn't it a shame that we talked about this last year

00:09:23 ◼   ► and just couldn't ship it?

00:09:23 ◼   ► Well, anyway, here we are again.

00:09:25 ◼   ► So, uh, the rest, for the rest of the presentation, the reality that they didn't ship all that stuff

00:09:31 ◼   ► is no longer acknowledged or relevant, but I do give them props for, you know, putting Apple

00:09:37 ◼   ► intelligence at the front, kind of getting it over with, with their enhancements that we're going to

00:09:41 ◼   ► talk about in a second and adding two sentences of reality recognition to say, we both know that we

00:09:49 ◼   ► screwed up, but we also know that we're not going to say that to you.

00:09:51 ◼   ► So anyway, let's go.

00:09:53 ◼   ► Right. So then we quickly launch into design and they had a brief, uh, cover flow.

00:09:59 ◼   ► Oh, wait, that, that's it for Apple intelligence. You're not going to talk about the things.

00:10:01 ◼   ► We're going to get there.

00:10:02 ◼   ► I'm trying to go chronologically. Have you ever been on the show before?

00:10:06 ◼   ► No, but that was the Apple intelligence part.

00:10:08 ◼   ► Okay. So obviously like John mentioned earlier, like there was a lot more elaboration in state

00:10:13 ◼   ► of the union about what the foundation models API is, but it is, you know, first of all,

00:10:19 ◼   ► it is exactly what was rumored and it was exactly what we expected. However, that is not a bad

00:10:25 ◼   ► thing. And that is not an underwhelming thing because what was rumored and what we expected

00:10:29 ◼   ► was also what me and many other developers were also hoping for. It looks really good. Like,

00:10:37 ◼   ► so what they have, what they have announced, um, is direct access to the foundation model on the

00:10:46 ◼   ► device, the foundation LLM or, or multiple models for all sorts of different tasks, you know, text

00:10:52 ◼   ► manipulation, things like summarization recommendations. Um, there's also what I was hoping for, which was

00:10:59 ◼   ► the, uh, speech transcription, uh, model that also appears. I haven't had time to play with it yet to

00:11:04 ◼   ► really confirm its abilities, but that also appears to be very promising. Um, they basically

00:11:10 ◼   ► opened up all of their local AI processing to developers to use locally for free. Um, there

00:11:19 ◼   ► is not seemingly a way to use private cloud compute all the way. It's, it's too early to know a lot of

00:11:23 ◼   ► the details yet. Cause this literally just was announced and we haven't had time to like build

00:11:26 ◼   ► stuff and dive too much into the examples and code yet, but, um, and then also most of the sessions

00:11:31 ◼   ► hadn't happened yet. So, uh, we, we will probably have a bunch of follow-up maybe correcting some of

00:11:35 ◼   ► these things, but basically it looks very much like an awesome opening up of the foundation models that

00:11:42 ◼   ► are on the device for developers to use for free. That is incredible. You know, we, we, we focus a lot

00:11:49 ◼   ► on like the, the flashier features here and there, but like what will actually make a day-to-day difference

00:11:56 ◼   ► in a lot of apps is underlying tech getting better. And this piece is incredibly powerful

00:12:03 ◼   ► because this is like what the story of Apple and, and, you know, being a developer platform,

00:12:09 ◼   ► if you, if you ignore or set aside all of the financial BS that they pull, if you, if you just

00:12:16 ◼   ► look at like the story of being an Apple developer, the reason we're all here, oh, there's two. Number

00:12:21 ◼   ► one, we have, we use Apple devices ourselves and developers tend to want to develop software for

00:12:25 ◼   ► the devices they use themselves. Also though, Apple gives really good APIs to do really complex things

00:12:34 ◼   ► easily in your apps. They've done this for, you know, for the entire history. And this is what,

00:12:38 ◼   ► this is what good developer platforms do. They aren't the only people in the universe to do this,

00:12:41 ◼   ► but I think Apple tends to be pretty class leading and a lot of the APIs they offer in terms of like

00:12:47 ◼   ► the capabilities and how good they are and how well they perform, you know, versus how,

00:12:52 ◼   ► how little effort it takes to use a lot of them. And so what they've done here is, you know, it's,

00:12:58 ◼   ► it sounds fast in a keynote and now you can access our models locally. That sounds like a single

00:13:03 ◼   ► sentence thing. That's a very big thing because so many apps will now be able to do basic AI type

00:13:12 ◼   ► stuff in what seems like a, you know, fairly unrestricted local fashion to just make the apps

00:13:20 ◼   ► a little bit nicer or a little bit more capable, or maybe a lot more capable depending on what they

00:13:25 ◼   ► are. Like, you know, for instance, various things like I could do with this in my app. Like if the

00:13:31 ◼   ► speech transcription API is as good as I hope it is, and I don't know yet, but it looks promising,

00:13:35 ◼   ► I can offer transcriptions for podcasts.

00:13:38 ◼   ► Now there's a lot of hoops to jump through to do that. Like for instance, every podcast copy that

00:13:43 ◼   ► is downloaded can be different because of dynamic ad insertion. So there's a bunch of hoops to jump

00:13:48 ◼   ► through, you know, to, or technical realities to overcome. But I can have transcriptions if I use

00:13:53 ◼   ► that transcription API, you know, obviously again, asterisk, asterisk, you know, complications,

00:13:58 ◼   ► but that could be the, if I'm given a transcription, I can maybe offer summaries,

00:14:03 ◼   ► or I can maybe try to detect where do topics change in the podcast and maybe insert automatic

00:14:09 ◼   ► chapter marks. Like there's all sorts of things that you can do once you have access locally

00:14:13 ◼   ► to cool AI features like this, because then you don't need to worry about your costs or network

00:14:20 ◼   ► connectivity or network speed or running your own servers because it's happening locally in the

00:14:24 ◼   ► device. The same way I don't pay to access airplay because it's just something that the devices do.

00:14:29 ◼   ► I can just offer airplay and it's, you know, free to me to offer that for AI features to be built in

00:14:37 ◼   ► and, you know, local and free unlocks a lot of potential. You know, as I mentioned last episode,

00:14:44 ◼   ► like any app that offers a list of things that you drill into, which is, I don't know if you've

00:14:49 ◼   ► noticed a lot of apps, maybe they can offer text summaries of the things in that list. I don't know

00:14:53 ◼   ► how fast the API is yet, but, you know, maybe they can, certain things they can do offline or

00:14:57 ◼   ► they can do in advance or whatever. So like maybe they can offer text summaries of things you drill

00:15:01 ◼   ► into in a list. Basic usability improvement there. Yeah, they're not always perfect. You know, we see

00:15:06 ◼   ► like, see it like in mail, you know, it's not always perfect, but it's pretty useful a lot of the

00:15:10 ◼   ► time. And in a lot of contexts that will provide value. So I think there's, I think we're, we are not

00:15:17 ◼   ► fully appreciating yet what a difference this is going to make to have access to local AI for free.

00:15:23 ◼   ► I think this is going to, I think in retrospect, a year or two from now, we're going to look back on

00:15:27 ◼   ► this as a very, very big deal. And we'll talk about the technology behind it probably next week's

00:15:33 ◼   ► episode when we talk about State of the Union, because it actually is interesting the way they've,

00:15:37 ◼   ► they're exposing this, not just the individual APIs, but just in general, how you can talk to models

00:15:42 ◼   ► and get results back from them with a little Apple flavored, Swift flavored twist to it.

00:15:47 ◼   ► Yeah. And also like, you know, looking at some of the stuff in State of the Union about

00:15:50 ◼   ► the way the APIs are, it's not just a very, very simple, like you provide text and it gives you

00:15:58 ◼   ► back an answer. It's way more powerful than that. There's all these like, you know, structured data

00:16:02 ◼   ► responses. You can like hook in intermediate steps that it can like, it can ask your app for more

00:16:07 ◼   ► information in certain ways or to provide certain data sources. Like there's a lot in this API that

00:16:12 ◼   ► looks incredibly promising guardrail features to try to make it not be awful. You can add your

00:16:17 ◼   ► own guardrails because they know theirs won't be enough. Yeah. Well, we'll, we'll dive into more

00:16:20 ◼   ► detail next week probably. Yeah. But this, again, this, the foundation models thing that, that alone,

00:16:26 ◼   ► if that, if there was no redesign, if there was nothing else, no fancy iPad app, you know, windowing,

00:16:31 ◼   ► if there was none of the other stuff we saw today, that alone is such a big deal that that could keep

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00:18:29 ◼   ► Uh, so we moved on to the design and we start with a cover flow rendition of the processors,

00:18:40 ◼   ► I think a six three 18 or thereabouts. Um, and they seem to be hinting that they used their own office

00:18:47 ◼   ► for a lot of the inspiration for this. Like Apple Park itself. Yeah, that was, that was the theme of

00:18:52 ◼   ► look at all this glass in Apple Park. You think we could be inspired by all this glass?

00:18:56 ◼   ► Yeah. That's, that's a choice, but here we are. Uh, then when they brought out Marco's best friend

00:19:01 ◼   ► forever, Alan dies.

00:19:03 ◼   ► Is this his first appearance? No. When has he, when has he been in stuff before?

00:19:07 ◼   ► I think it's his third or fourth. Yeah, it's like three or four, something like that. Maybe it's just the new glasses

00:19:10 ◼   ► they're throwing me, but anyway, there he is. So anyway, so he says there's going to be a more harmonious

00:19:16 ◼   ► experience. And yeah, they use that word a lot. Right. And inspired by the physicality and richness of

00:19:22 ◼   ► vision OS. And I don't, I don't know what to make of this because like on the one side,

00:19:27 ◼   ► if those are the words that make the most sense, then use the words that make the most sense. But I

00:19:31 ◼   ► don't know, they have this like air of like hoity toitiness and they just seem Apple design.

00:19:37 ◼   ► I know. Right. What a surprise. I mean, I think them trying to explain their inspiration makes

00:19:43 ◼   ► sense. Like the most interesting thing to me and all these videos, uh, they've done a couple of times

00:19:46 ◼   ► now is the, uh, so this is, he's standing, someone told me he's standing in like a cafeteria or

00:19:51 ◼   ► something. He's not standing in a design studio. Uh, but anyway, they have some tables set up and on

00:19:55 ◼   ► the tables are, it's hard to tell. Are these objects that the design team created when exploring

00:20:03 ◼   ► the sort of idea space, as they would say, to think of the next design, or are these sort of

00:20:08 ◼   ► after the fact objects that they created after they had decided on the design to try, let's make

00:20:14 ◼   ► physical objects to convey to the public. This is the feeling that we want the design to give you.

00:20:20 ◼   ► And the objects are various, uh, rectangular solids of colored glass. And also a bunch of, uh,

00:20:30 ◼   ► clear, uh, well, I don't know what that glass, clear glass or clear plastic things that have

00:20:34 ◼   ► semicircular rounded edges on them. So you've got kind of hockey puck discs with rounded edges and

00:20:40 ◼   ► lozenges with rounded edges. And those things are sitting on top of flat things that are like,

00:20:47 ◼   ► that have pictures on them or whatever. So if you watch, watch the video, they showed them a couple

00:20:50 ◼   ► of times. My guess is that these are sort of finished products to say these, these convey the spirit

00:20:58 ◼   ► of the interface that we made. Maybe they made objects like that when they were exploring it,

00:21:02 ◼   ► but they look so finished. Um, and I think this is like a sensible way for designers to try to tell

00:21:10 ◼   ► people the thing you say in your screen should evoke the same feelings as this stuff. And also they go

00:21:18 ◼   ► through later trying to explain how like these things are supposed to be like on top of your UI.

00:21:22 ◼   ► So here is a thing on a table where there's like a placemat that is like your content. And then

00:21:27 ◼   ► there are these clear plastic things that is our UI we're putting on top of it. That's what we're

00:21:32 ◼   ► trying to make. I like, I like that. I like the idea of physical objects to, to, to, uh, introduce what

00:21:39 ◼   ► is a non-physical interface because it's pixels on a screen. Um, but now we get into, okay, so that,

00:21:46 ◼   ► is that a good inspiration? Is that a good girl goal? Should an interface be inspired by those

00:21:50 ◼   ► things that are on the table? And I think that is, uh, maybe up in the air. Yeah. I think I'm guessing

00:21:56 ◼   ► this was all just created for, for the video. And like after the fact, like not, not while they were

00:22:01 ◼   ► developing it. Yes. This is design marketing, not design, not design design. Yeah. And I'm guessing

00:22:07 ◼   ► there's no way those are all glass. I'm guessing that's acrylic because glass would like chip and be

00:22:10 ◼   ► heavy. And you'd never know with Apple. You're right. It should absolutely be like, you know,

00:22:15 ◼   ► Lexan or, or acrylic or acrylic is actually hard to make without bubbles and everything. I honestly

00:22:20 ◼   ► don't even know. Maybe those are all made of diamond, don't you? It's just a gigantic man-made

00:22:26 ◼   ► flawless diamond, the size of a, of a sub sandwich. Yeah. So, well, it's the video that, the idea that

00:22:34 ◼   ► they're showing and you just have to watch the video to see this, but like, think about if you had

00:22:38 ◼   ► like, um, a hockey puck with semi-circular rounded edges made entirely of clear glass.

00:22:44 ◼   ► And you put that hockey puck on top, I'm so old, on top of a newspaper.

00:22:49 ◼   ► What's a newspaper? Anyway, put it on top of a piece of paper with text. You've probably done

00:22:54 ◼   ► this. Have you ever had like a big chunky, like Sherlock Holmes magnifying glass when you were a

00:22:58 ◼   ► kid, right? Like the big one with the handle. It's just a big sort of lens of glass. And if you lay

00:23:03 ◼   ► that on the table, on top of a piece of print, and then you move that magnifying glass around or move

00:23:07 ◼   ► that clear hockey puck around, what you see is the thing that's right underneath it being magnified,

00:23:12 ◼   ► racing by the lens and sort of distorting around the edges. That is their inspiration for a lot of

00:23:17 ◼   ► the UI. Oh, a clear thing. And when it either, it moves on top of a surface or the thing that's

00:23:23 ◼   ► underneath, it moves underneath the thing. You see the details of the thing that is whirring by

00:23:28 ◼   ► underneath, distorted and warped and rapidly moving somewhat magnified through the clear thing. Which is a

00:23:35 ◼   ► cool, interesting effect for like an art gallery. But in terms of user interface, the most interesting

00:23:40 ◼   ► thing to me, and I think the thing I didn't expect from the rumors and the thing I think everyone who was

00:23:45 ◼   ► doing mock-ups, including like Sebastian DeWitt's that we talked about last time, didn't think about was that

00:23:51 ◼   ► Apple has spent years and years making translucent things like, you know, just look at your dock right

00:23:58 ◼   ► now if you're not on Tahoe or like any other sort of clear thing on your iPhone or whatever, making things

00:24:02 ◼   ► that reflect, not reflect, that convey what is behind them without causing the details of that thing

00:24:09 ◼   ► behind them to impair legibility. They don't just mean legibility in terms of text, but legibility in terms

00:24:16 ◼   ► of like, can I see the shape of the button or the icon or whatever? So you want the thing behind

00:24:22 ◼   ► to quote-unquote show through or influence it, but it should look really smeared and frosted. And even

00:24:27 ◼   ► Sebastian's thing last week with the physicality thing, very frosted, very frosted over, very smoothed out

00:24:32 ◼   ► because that's what Apple has always done. And that is a sensible choice when you need to be able to

00:24:41 ◼   ► see the stuff that is in that clear thing. And Apple was like, actually, we really want a lot more

00:24:49 ◼   ► of the contrasty details of the things below to show through, including the motion. So if you scroll

00:24:56 ◼   ► something behind like a current generation frosted glass thing, yeah, the frosted glass will change

00:25:01 ◼   ► based on the average brightness and color space of the thing that's behind it. But if you scroll

00:25:06 ◼   ► something behind one of these clear lozenges, either the physical things on the table or the interface,

00:25:11 ◼   ► elements, boy, it's like moving that Sherlock Holmes magnifying glass over a magazine page.

00:25:15 ◼   ► You see lots of stuff flying by, lots of contrasty edges, lots of details, lots of motion back there.

00:25:22 ◼   ► A lot, a lot, shows through a lot more. And with a lot more, I'm not going to say animation,

00:25:27 ◼   ► but with a lot more of the motion visible, it's like, you know, shower glass. Okay. So if you have

00:25:33 ◼   ► a shower, there have been over my lifetime, at least many different generations of fads for how do we

00:25:40 ◼   ► make shower glass that is somewhat privacy preserving? When I was a kid in the 70s, you probably remember

00:25:45 ◼   ► this, the kind of like scalloped things that have like these little scalloped things. It was like,

00:25:49 ◼   ► it would make everything wavy and distorted. So it's like, well, light goes through it, but you can't

00:25:53 ◼   ► really see anything because it just becomes like a, you know, an impressionist painting. There's also

00:25:59 ◼   ► a frosted glass that's flat. There is just the trend of like 100% clear glass where you can see

00:26:03 ◼   ► everything and there is no privacy except for the soap scum that you're supposed to scrape off each

00:26:06 ◼   ► time, but nobody ever does. Apple has gone through a bunch of those in its UI. And in this generation,

00:26:13 ◼   ► they're saying, we mostly want to see the person in the shower. Like we want, we want to see a lot more

00:26:19 ◼   ► of the person in the shower than we have in the past. So their, their shower door is not leaving as much

00:26:24 ◼   ► to the imagination as their passwords. It's worth, if you are able to, it's worth installing this on

00:26:30 ◼   ► a test device to actually see how it works in practice. Can I interrupt you right there, please?

00:26:34 ◼   ► Don't put this on your carry phone for the love of everything that is good and holy. Do not put this

00:26:40 ◼   ► on your carry phone or your main Mac, please. Or your main Mac, an iPad or something expendable,

00:26:46 ◼   ► whatever that's different. And I actually have put it on my iPad because I don't need my iPad to get work

00:26:51 ◼   ► done. But in order to survive, I need a functional phone and a functional Mac and anything that you

00:26:56 ◼   ► think you need to survive. Don't even start sniffing around at betas until at the very least,

00:27:03 ◼   ► the public betas. And even then I wouldn't do it. We have to go through this every year. It's probably

00:27:08 ◼   ► too late for all of you, but I'm telling you, do not put the beta on any device that you consider

00:27:15 ◼   ► important. Don't do it. Learn from Marco and Mai's mistake from iOS 5. Learn from probably both of our

00:27:22 ◼   ► mistakes in iOS 7, especially when it comes to a redesign because everything tends to look a little

00:27:27 ◼   ► wonky. Don't do it. Don't do it. Sorry, Marco. Please continue.

00:27:32 ◼   ► That being said, I did it. It's really rough, by the way.

00:27:37 ◼   ► Right?

00:27:37 ◼   ► It's really, there are a lot of little UI glitches throughout the system apps and it's rough.

00:27:46 ◼   ► I will say though, if you are a developer, you might want to do it. So, okay, don't do it,

00:27:53 ◼   ► but you might want to do it because it is. So using this UI on the phone is, first of all,

00:28:00 ◼   ► very informative. When you compare to the videos and everything we saw, you know, the videos,

00:28:05 ◼   ► everything is like zoomed way in and it shows everything in slow motion and look at how amazing

00:28:12 ◼   ► this is. And it's all about content, which, oh my God, I have so much to say about that, but

00:28:16 ◼   ► your content, we're getting out of the way for your content. You need to see more of your content.

00:28:21 ◼   ► It's like, what if the app's functionality is the app's content? Okay. Anyway, so a lot of zooming in

00:28:29 ◼   ► and looking at the things, you really should see it on the way it works on a real phone. And you

00:28:34 ◼   ► should actually use it to get, to get a sense of what this design is like, what things look and feel

00:28:40 ◼   ► correct, what things look and feel, you know, wrong or old. My entire app with a one year old design

00:28:49 ◼   ► looks ancient in this system.

00:28:52 ◼   ► Just wait till you see what they did on macOS because I made an app last year too with,

00:28:56 ◼   ► that requires the previous, the current version of macOS, literally requires the very latest version

00:29:02 ◼   ► of macOS and the buttons don't even look right. The buttons.

00:29:06 ◼   ► We have a lot of work to do, but, um, you know, so a couple of things. So first of all,

00:29:11 ◼   ► John was right about like, you know, the glass and everything and, you know, the, the way it kind

00:29:15 ◼   ► of warps things around it. And I think some of that hopefully will be turned, will be tuned down a

00:29:21 ◼   ► little bit, um, throughout the summer as they get feedback the same way, like iOS seven beta one,

00:29:26 ◼   ► the fonts were way thinner than what ended up shipping, which was still thin, but it was less

00:29:31 ◼   ► crazy thin. Um, because it like the very first beta, which was the design department's, you know,

00:29:36 ◼   ► baby, it just like, it was so illegible in so many ways because the fonts were so thin everywhere,

00:29:43 ◼   ► that, you know, they, they, before it shipped, they, they kind of increased the Helvetica weight

00:29:48 ◼   ► there a little bit. Although on that topic, which has come up a few times in the past,

00:29:51 ◼   ► we've gotten questions about it. The idea that they come up with a new design and they go too far

00:29:55 ◼   ► and then they scale it back, which is what happened with iOS seven. And it's happened with a couple

00:29:59 ◼   ► other things they've done as well. Um, sometimes it's frustrating to people, some listeners have

00:30:05 ◼   ► expressed this to say, well, why do they have to overshoot and fix it? Why don't they

00:30:10 ◼   ► overshoot and fix it themselves before they show it to us? Right. Um, and sometimes I think of that

00:30:18 ◼   ► as well. It's like, don't ship something that you obviously know has problems just hoping you can like

00:30:22 ◼   ► get away with it or something because you think it's cool and then scale it back. Why not, why not do

00:30:26 ◼   ► that yourself before you show it to us? Um, I mean, there is actually one reason to like you want one

00:30:33 ◼   ► reason to actually try to overshoot by a tiny bit. You shouldn't try to overshoot by a lot. And I think a

00:30:38 ◼   ► lot of, in a lot of the cases they have overshot by a lot and they shouldn't have done that.

00:30:41 ◼   ► But the reason you want to overshoot by a little bit is because if you under, if you go to, don't

00:30:46 ◼   ► go far enough, if you're not as daring as you thought you will end up, it's pretty easy to do

00:30:51 ◼   ► that. Let's ship something that doesn't go so far. All right. Is there any place where we're hurting

00:30:54 ◼   ► legibility? Is there any place where we think someone might find this objectionable? Let's turn it down,

00:30:58 ◼   ► turn it down, turn it down, turn it down, turn it down. What you end up shipping is something that

00:31:02 ◼   ► doesn't actually look that different than what you had before, because you're afraid to be too different

00:31:06 ◼   ► because the current thing that's out there is the status quo. And anytime you deviate from that,

00:31:09 ◼   ► you're afraid people won't like it. Um, so if you overshoot, but just a tiny bit and then turn it

00:31:16 ◼   ► back, you can sort of dial it in. But if you undershoot, you have no idea how much to turn it

00:31:20 ◼   ► up. And so you, you, you're, and it's very difficult to turn it up and say like, well, let's make it more

00:31:24 ◼   ► extreme and more extreme. And then you're like waiting for people to yell about it. And by the time you get

00:31:28 ◼   ► close to it, maybe it's the last beta and then people start yelling. So do you back it off a notch from

00:31:32 ◼   ► there? Or are you just hearing residual yelling? So like that, I, I have some sympathy for the idea

00:31:38 ◼   ► that it's easier to overshoot slightly and tile it back than it is to undershoot because you could

00:31:42 ◼   ► undershoot by a huge amount and then not know how to, how much turned up. And it will, it will

00:31:47 ◼   ► basically make you timid. You'll end up coming out with something that's like, this looks exactly the

00:31:51 ◼   ► same as the current thing, because you already had translucency that showed through the background

00:31:55 ◼   ► that was very frosted over. And you've continued to do that. That said, I think if you ship something

00:32:01 ◼   ► that, you know, makes a legible text in a bunch of places in your UI and you're like, oh, don't worry,

00:32:06 ◼   ► we'll turn it down. Turn it down before you ship it. Like stuff like that, where it's like, this is

00:32:09 ◼   ► obviously legible. We cannot ship this. I don't need to see that. You don't need to put that out

00:32:14 ◼   ► and say, oh, we're just going to, we're just going to back it off a little bit now. Back that off

00:32:18 ◼   ► internally because a legible text or too low contrast and stuff are things that you should

00:32:23 ◼   ► be able to detect behind the scenes. And I think a lot of this, a lot of this redesign suffers from that.

00:32:30 ◼   ► I would argue that maybe even the thin text is like, well, maybe this will be okay because it's

00:32:34 ◼   ► not as obvious as some of the worst appearances in this. If I was still doing Mac OS 10 reviews and

00:32:38 ◼   ► we haven't gotten to Mac OS yet, but if I was doing Mac OS 10 reviews or whatever the hell it's called

00:32:43 ◼   ► these days, Mac OS reviews, I, for this OS, I would just be lining up screenshot after screenshot of

00:32:49 ◼   ► areas where this design falls on its face, where the old design did not. And those are easy to find

00:32:55 ◼   ► everywhere. Obviously in the first beta, it's going to be easy to find, but I think they've got a lot of work to do

00:32:59 ◼   ► to shape this up.

00:33:00 ◼   ► Yeah. I think in particular, like, so some of the, some of the, the super clear glass, like, so there,

00:33:07 ◼   ► there are actually multiple like glass translucency effects in play here, which is similar by the way,

00:33:14 ◼   ► like the, the, you know, last few OS releases have had kind of like translucent material APIs that you

00:33:21 ◼   ► could use that did a similar thing of like, you know, the way like stuff could, could scroll under

00:33:27 ◼   ► navigation bars and toolbars and you get like those kind of blurred, you know, colors. They do that now.

00:33:32 ◼   ► They have multiple materials in the new design. And some of them appear to be basically, you know,

00:33:38 ◼   ► the, the, the maybe slightly evolved version of that. And it looks kind of like, you know, thin frosted

00:33:45 ◼   ► glass. And when stuff goes under it, it gets a little bit blurred and a little bit, you know,

00:33:49 ◼   ► smeary, but not, it doesn't like jump out at you. And it, and it maintains pretty low contrast under

00:33:55 ◼   ► it. So the text on top of the surface doesn't need, you know, super bold contrast to be legible.

00:34:02 ◼   ► Then they have what looks like, you know, the clear gumdrop of acrylic moving over something

00:34:08 ◼   ► where it warps like crazy on the, on the edges of it with whatever's behind it. What, what goes behind

00:34:15 ◼   ► it gets so bright with like vibrancy that they, what they call the effect, like the vibrancy is,

00:34:21 ◼   ► is cranked way up. So as you scroll something colorful behind one of these, it almost looks

00:34:27 ◼   ► like there's an led behind it, lighting it up into the, into the blob of material. Like those look

00:34:34 ◼   ► kind of nuts. Um, and that where the shows up the most in the UI so far is tab controllers,

00:34:42 ◼   ► previously known as tab bars. They look like unhinged. Like when you move around a tab, like you pick a

00:34:51 ◼   ► tab and like the, it like moves it over like the blob of liquid and it's like, it wiggles the whole,

00:34:56 ◼   ► the whole thing wiggles and shakes and scales. Like it's like, you thought that the dynamic island was

00:35:00 ◼   ► goopy. Now just picking a different item on a bottom bar, forget about like the, even just like the,

00:35:05 ◼   ► you know, the clear piece of water that you're moving from the left to the right. That's there.

00:35:10 ◼   ► And that's ridiculous. And it warps everything. And it, but then after you pick the new thing,

00:35:13 ◼   ► the whole thing goes wong, wong, wong. Yeah. It's, it's nuts. Or like, you know,

00:35:17 ◼   ► like in the mail app, for instance, you open up a message. So it pushed it, you know,

00:35:21 ◼   ► you have, you have a, you have a navigation stack. It pushes something in from the right.

00:35:24 ◼   ► You go back to the route to the list and the list bounces a little bit.

00:35:28 ◼   ► Yeah. They did this with messages. Like in the current version of messages does that.

00:35:31 ◼   ► Have you noticed when you scroll and messages, all the little bubbles shake around,

00:35:34 ◼   ► like they're loosely attached to the background.

00:35:35 ◼   ► Oh, that was added since iOS seven, I think, because that was part of the,

00:35:39 ◼   ► like the Springs kind of gravity.

00:35:40 ◼   ► Yeah. Maybe I'm just noticing more because it's on macOS now and it really bothers me

00:35:43 ◼   ► where things shake around like that, but it's just, yeah, they, they love things for things

00:35:46 ◼   ► to look like they're loosely attached to whatever they're attached to. And I'm not sure that's the

00:35:50 ◼   ► look they want to go for. Cause it reminds me of shoddy workmanship.

00:35:52 ◼   ► There are places where that's a good thing. Like it can be used well.

00:35:57 ◼   ► Like the dynamic Island.

00:35:58 ◼   ► Yeah. And I think, you know, or things like scroll bouncing, which is great.

00:36:02 ◼   ► But, but, but with scroll bouncing though, the thing, the pain, the virtual paper scroll that

00:36:09 ◼   ► you are scrolling that springs what doesn't happen and what shouldn't happen is all the

00:36:14 ◼   ► text on the page also slides within the container of the page to go back and forth to get like

00:36:19 ◼   ► closer and farther from the edge of the paper. So the paper, the thing you're scrolling feels

00:36:23 ◼   ► solid. It just shakes as if it's on a spring, but the stuff inside it is firmly attached to

00:36:28 ◼   ► the background. And that is the, I, that adds an air of solidity to like pull and refresh

00:36:33 ◼   ► and spring scrolling. That is not the case when you have things like your interface elements

00:36:37 ◼   ► shaking around on their background, like the tab bar or the, uh, the bubbles and messages.

00:36:42 ◼   ► Yeah. Like the, the tab bar here is so over the top and it's kind of, it's annoying because

00:36:49 ◼   ► the animation is also, it also just takes a while. Like you have to wait for it to stop jiggling.

00:36:54 ◼   ► Why? Like it, it just, and I mean, yeah, maybe I'm sure you can keep using the app and I'm sure

00:36:58 ◼   ► it'll register your touches and respond before it's done animating that. But like, why is animation

00:37:01 ◼   ► so long for something that is literally like switching tabs in an app? But that's, it's such a common

00:37:06 ◼   ► thing. So it just, the tab controller, it just, it looks totally ridiculous. It's also completely

00:37:13 ◼   ► illegible. Like when you have anything behind it that uses the super clear glass effect, it is

00:37:19 ◼   ► comically illegible. So I, I, this is exactly the kind of thing they are likely to dial back a little

00:37:26 ◼   ► bit over the summer. We'll see if they do. I hope they do. Because if, if this design ships the way it

00:37:33 ◼   ► is in 1.0, like in this, we're going to have a lot of people using whatever the accessibility settings

00:37:39 ◼   ► are to like reduce motion, reduce transparency. And I feel like if, if many people use those settings,

00:37:47 ◼   ► just because the new design dropped legibility so much that they have to, that is a design failure.

00:37:54 ◼   ► Like people who use the accessibility tweaks to the design should do so for accessibility reasons,

00:38:00 ◼   ► not because the new design goes so far that way more people all of a sudden need those accommodations.

00:38:07 ◼   ► And so I hope, like I was hoping this design, I was hoping they would take the opportunity here

00:38:14 ◼   ► with this new design to make a design that works better for more people without using special flags

00:38:21 ◼   ► to turn stuff off. And they definitely did not do that. In fact, they've gone the opposite direction.

00:38:26 ◼   ► I think more people will have to use the flags to turn stuff off with this new design. And, and that,

00:38:32 ◼   ► that just, I mean, this design is not about legibility at all, like, and maybe it doesn't matter, but

00:38:38 ◼   ► certainly legibility is not what they were going for, or unless they, unless they really don't know how

00:38:45 ◼   ► to do it. But I think they just don't care. Like, I think what we've seen, we've seen Alan Dye's style

00:38:49 ◼   ► over time. His style is all about minimizing and hiding controls as much as possible to make room for

00:38:58 ◼   ► content to bleed through behind stuff. I don't think that's super effective, but it does look nice in certain

00:39:05 ◼   ► marketing shots. That's obviously what he knows how to design for. That's obviously what he cares about the

00:39:10 ◼   ► most, way more above actual usability. And there's nothing inherently wrong with trying to make stuff that looks

00:39:16 ◼   ► really cool. I just think it is of course a balance and there are parts of the do look really cool and

00:39:21 ◼   ► parts of it that are perfectly usable. And there's also a lot of parts that really sacrificed legibility

00:39:27 ◼   ► and usability for looks that is Alan Dye style. So congratulations. He succeeded. But, and, and to be

00:39:34 ◼   ► clear, I am overall, I am excited to get into this design and to start wrapping my app around it

00:39:40 ◼   ► basically. But it is, it's, it's certainly very opinionated. And I also wonder like the outgoing

00:39:49 ◼   ► design of iOS 7 through 18 is largely defined by its lack of personality. Like it had all the

00:39:58 ◼   ► personality stripped out of it. And what that created was basically a blank slate for all the app developers

00:40:06 ◼   ► and big companies and big companies and everything out there to define their own styles in apps pretty

00:40:11 ◼   ► effectively. And, and so you go to different apps now, you know, on the outgoing era or the outgoing

00:40:16 ◼   ► design, you go through different apps and you can figure out how to use them just fine, but they do have

00:40:21 ◼   ► their own styles and they're, and you know, you know, companies have their own like visual language and

00:40:27 ◼   ► branding and it mostly works and it's mostly fine because the system does not impose a strong opinion.

00:40:33 ◼   ► Now with this new design, the system is suddenly imposing a very strong opinion. So in this

00:40:41 ◼   ► environment though, again, this is not iOS 6 anymore. Like this is not, you know, 2007 or whatever

00:40:47 ◼   ► anymore. Like this is now an environment where we have this entire ecosystem built up from a decade of

00:40:54 ◼   ► the system being fairly neutral and bland, which let the apps develop their own visual vocabularies.

00:41:01 ◼   ► Now the new system UI design is going to much more significantly clash with everyone else's visual

00:41:08 ◼   ► vocabularies they've built up. And so what you're going to see, I think is a pretty big,

00:41:12 ◼   ► maybe a bifurcation of like, you're going to have a lot of like indie developers like us who try to use

00:41:17 ◼   ► the new design, but then you're going to have all the big company apps that just totally snub it and

00:41:23 ◼   ► basically disable the, all of it or fight against it or re-implement stuff from scratch, which is terrible

00:41:27 ◼   ► for lots of reasons, including accessibility. So I think there's what Apple did here was they took a

00:41:33 ◼   ► really big, bold stance to kind of grab back design authority from their ecosystem. But I don't know if

00:41:42 ◼   ► the ecosystem is going to, going to follow suit. And I don't know if they have the position to do that

00:41:47 ◼   ► from. Additionally, the super roughness of beta one has me a little bit concerned, like about, about

00:41:55 ◼   ► Apple's own UI quality here. Like, are they going to be able to polish this up and ship it to, to, to like

00:42:00 ◼   ► a finished relatively bug-free state in their own apps, in their own system by September? Like maybe,

00:42:07 ◼   ► maybe, but it's, it's a tall order. It's a very aggressive move.

00:42:11 ◼   ► So we've kind of shaded into the iOS section of this was when you're talking about this design,

00:42:16 ◼   ► you're mostly talking about in the context of iOS. And we will get to that in a second,

00:42:19 ◼   ► but two things first on the accessibility front, which you just mentioned again.

00:42:22 ◼   ► I saw, again, there's some people debating this as the keynote was going by and they're like,

00:42:27 ◼   ► oh, how is this accessible? You can't read any of the text, blah, blah, blah. It's terrible

00:42:30 ◼   ► accessibility. And people are like, oh, actually Apple's really good with accessibility. Look

00:42:32 ◼   ► at all the options they have to reduce transparency, increase contrast, you know, like reduce animations.

00:42:39 ◼   ► They have like tons and tons of accessibility options and all their OSs. And they're, they're

00:42:42 ◼   ► one of the best companies in the world about accessibility. But Marco, you made the point

00:42:47 ◼   ► that like, well, if everybody needs to enable certain accessibility options for it to be legible

00:42:52 ◼   ► or almost everybody, maybe you're like, who is using your default design. And the way I like

00:42:57 ◼   ► to think about it is coming from the other angle. If you turn on a bunch of the accessibility

00:43:01 ◼   ► options, which I've experimented with turning on, for example, on Mac OS, I think it makes

00:43:06 ◼   ► everything uglier. And why should, uh, the accessibility out? Why, if you have an, you

00:43:13 ◼   ► need accessibility options, why should you sacrifice beauty? Why should beauty only be for young people

00:43:18 ◼   ► with perfect eyes who can tolerate low contrast and can pick out text? Like why, why do you have

00:43:23 ◼   ► to give that up? I think that a good design would be both accessible and beautiful. Why, why do you

00:43:30 ◼   ► not get to have that if you need literally any accessibility options? Because yeah, the accessibility

00:43:35 ◼   ► options, if you enable them do the things they say, they do reduce transparency. They do reduce

00:43:40 ◼   ► motion. They do increase contrast, but they do so in an extremely strong way. Some of them have

00:43:45 ◼   ► adjustability, but not all of them have adjustability. And it's so clear that the designers design it the way

00:43:52 ◼   ► they want it to work and then design accessibility options to like, look okay. No one is sitting there

00:43:59 ◼   ► saying, let's sweat over the 75 possible combinations of these accessibility settings, making sure every

00:44:05 ◼   ► combination of these settings, you need A and C, but not B, you need B and C, you need B and D, whichever

00:44:10 ◼   ► combination of accessibility settings you like or need. No one is sitting there saying, well, we need

00:44:16 ◼   ► every combination of these accessibility settings to also look beautiful. They do not look beautiful.

00:44:20 ◼   ► Turning on even a one of these usually makes everything uglier. And you get the feeling that

00:44:25 ◼   ► nobody cares what it looks like when any of those accessibility options are turned on other than

00:44:29 ◼   ► measuring, is the contrast better now? Okay, good job done, right? Is the transparency reduced? Okay,

00:44:34 ◼   ► job done. But no one cares what it looks like. Why should I have to give up beauty for accessibility?

00:44:39 ◼   ► I feel like that's, I mean, I don't, maybe I've picked up like this animosity towards Alan Dye

00:44:45 ◼   ► from Marco over the years, but like I look at him in this thing, I'm like, can't you make an OS

00:44:50 ◼   ► that is beautiful and accessible and as accessible as possible out of the box? Obviously that you're

00:44:56 ◼   ► still going to need to have options. Like you're not going to make it so it's perfect for everyone,

00:44:59 ◼   ► but like that's the lesson of like OXO Good Grips, that if you design something for accessibility,

00:45:03 ◼   ► if you do a really good job, you don't have to change anything about it to sell it to people who

00:45:08 ◼   ► don't need any accessibility options, they're like, oh, this is just a better peeler. Like, you know,

00:45:12 ◼   ► they don't know it was designed for people with arthritis. They're just like, this is just the

00:45:16 ◼   ► best peeler that I've ever used. That's success. Success is not, I've made this peeler that young

00:45:21 ◼   ► people with perfect skin and amazing dexterity can use, but anyone else you need to buy the

00:45:25 ◼   ► accessibility handle and stick it on. And by the way, the accessibility handle is big and ugly and

00:45:30 ◼   ► loose and doesn't come on the color you want and doesn't match your kitchen and doesn't fit in your

00:45:35 ◼   ► drawers. That's kind of how I feel about the accessibility options in this thing.

00:45:38 ◼   ► I think they are too far away from legibility, accessibility, readability. Um, like their,

00:45:47 ◼   ► their default is too, is not good enough. And the options, the accessibility options that you turn

00:45:54 ◼   ► on, uh, make everything just look so much worse. And that that's a shame. Um, and then the second

00:46:00 ◼   ► thing is we're shading into iOS stuff. You mentioned the floating toolbars at the bottom. I don't know if I

00:46:06 ◼   ► need to draw diagrams about this for future shows or something. I've complained about it before,

00:46:09 ◼   ► but it's hard to explain visually. Um, but one of the things that they're doing across all of their

00:46:14 ◼   ► OSs, but including on, on iOS is, and they showed it in the keynote, uh, a thing that used to be just

00:46:20 ◼   ► the bottom centimeter of the screen with a bunch of options on it. Um, like the tab bar or whatever,

00:46:25 ◼   ► that thing will now be a floating lozenge that floats over your content. That's the whole thing on

00:46:30 ◼   ► the tables. You got to like a clear plastic, acrylic or plastic. It floats over your stuff.

00:46:33 ◼   ► But what that means, and they talk about in the keynote is now you can see your content

00:46:37 ◼   ► behind and around that. It doesn't go edge to edge, but it's like, Oh, our devices have curved edges now.

00:46:42 ◼   ► So now this lozenge correctly matches the curved edge. So this floating lozenge is floating. It's not

00:46:48 ◼   ► touching the bottom of your screen. It's like, you know, I don't know, a few millimeters up from the

00:46:52 ◼   ► bottom of your screen. It's a few millimeters from the left of your screen. It's a few millimeters

00:46:56 ◼   ► from the right of your screen. It is floating with margins around it. That like, I don't know

00:47:02 ◼   ► why they're so in love with that because like now you can see more of your content. Well, first of all,

00:47:05 ◼   ► no, I can't. If, if I have a webpage and there's a footer with links in it, now that footer with links

00:47:10 ◼   ► is behind the toolbar. And yes, there is a Safari option that they added back when they tried to

00:47:15 ◼   ► redesign a Safari in this way a few OSs ago. That's like, Oh, your, your web cage can sense how much

00:47:20 ◼   ► of the bottom of it we're covering up. And you could essentially set safe area insets for your

00:47:24 ◼   ► webpage. So you draw your footer above that bar. Well, if I'm drawing my footer above the bar,

00:47:29 ◼   ► what the hell good is the rest of the quote unquote content down there? Because I can't put anything

00:47:34 ◼   ► there. I can't put anything for people to read because the bar is covering it. Can I put something

00:47:38 ◼   ► in the two millimeter sliver at the bottom? Maybe. Can I put something in the two millimeter sliver

00:47:42 ◼   ► on the right and the left? Maybe, but probably not like that space is not mine. My content cannot go

00:47:49 ◼   ► there. Even if I'm displaying a photo, even if I'm displaying a photo, what this photo has some

00:47:53 ◼   ► text at the bottom, or I want to see what's at the bottom of the picture. I have to like yank the

00:47:58 ◼   ► picture up. So it springs like I'm, Oh, I got to hold up. Can I get, can I get it? Can I get the photo

00:48:03 ◼   ► entirely out from behind that thing? Or will the thing shrink out of the way and get a little bit

00:48:07 ◼   ► smaller? That's not my content area. You're putting your floating glass thing over it. And I know you

00:48:12 ◼   ► love it when like my content shows through your floating glass thing and makes it look cool or

00:48:16 ◼   ► whatever. But what if I want to see what's there? What if I want to draw on what's there? Do I have to move

00:48:21 ◼   ► your little thing out of the way so I can draw on that section in my drawing app? That is not my

00:48:25 ◼   ► content area. It is much better when it's just a bar because then, you know, your content begins at

00:48:31 ◼   ► the top of that bar. So not only does my content actually begin at the top of that bar because that

00:48:36 ◼   ► area is useless to me, but it doesn't really begin there because it's going to display it there by

00:48:40 ◼   ► default. And if I try to yank my content up so I can see the actual bottom of my content obscured,

00:48:45 ◼   ► then what goes behind your floating toolbar? What gets put there? This interface, I find

00:48:51 ◼   ► maddening because I can't think of a single situation in which it benefits me as the user in

00:48:57 ◼   ► any way. I'm only, there are only situations where I'm lucky enough that I don't care what's in that

00:49:02 ◼   ► bottom centimeter. And so I can sacrifice all of that content and I don't have to try to stretch it up so

00:49:06 ◼   ► I can see it. I'm very angry about this because there's a, they tried this with Safari and backed off

00:49:11 ◼   ► and now they're like, nope, we decided we're just going to force it on everybody. And I mean,

00:49:15 ◼   ► I haven't seen the WTC sessions yet, but I don't think there's a solution to this. All of these sort

00:49:19 ◼   ► of safe area ends, that's another crap that you can do is just ways for you to try to work around this.

00:49:23 ◼   ► But as soon as you work around it, you're left with two problems. One, what the hell do you put

00:49:26 ◼   ► behind that clear bar? And two, how is this any better than what came before, which is when you had a

00:49:31 ◼   ► clean separation between content and bar rant over. But like, this is, this is my least favorite feature of

00:49:36 ◼   ► this entire redesign. It's not the glassy stuff. It's this floating bar concept because I think it

00:49:41 ◼   ► is just like bankrupt from a user interface perspective. Yeah. Because like what happens

00:49:46 ◼   ► is, you know, you're right. Like what are you gaining? Like they, they talk all about, they,

00:49:49 ◼   ► they kept saying over and over again in this design, by the way, this design doesn't seem to have a name.

00:49:54 ◼   ► It's referred to in a lot of different ways with generic terms, like Apple's new universal design

00:49:59 ◼   ► language, liquid glass. No, it's liquid glass. No, liquid glass is the material. The actual design

00:50:05 ◼   ► does not have a name. But I think people will just call it liquid glass because what else are

00:50:10 ◼   ► you going to call it? Right. But everything. So, you know, they, they constantly talk about

00:50:12 ◼   ► freeing up space for your content, even more focus on your content. And these are terms that have been

00:50:18 ◼   ► around since Johnny I was there. Like this is not, you know, a new design vocabulary. It's all about

00:50:23 ◼   ► like get out of the way for your content. But the problem is how much of your content are you

00:50:27 ◼   ► actually gaining by this? And again, John's right. Like you look at like, you know, the new tab bar area

00:50:31 ◼   ► or bottom bar area for most apps and what you're getting, first of all, you're not getting usable

00:50:37 ◼   ► content. You're getting a blurred background version of the content. You can't, it's actually

00:50:42 ◼   ► blurred with the way most of these toolbars are designed. So like, you know, you go to something

00:50:46 ◼   ► like mail. It's blurred and distorted. It's not just blurred. It's like warped. Yes. It's blurred and warped.

00:50:50 ◼   ► Yeah. But most it's mostly just blurts. Like you're not actually able to use that space. It's just a

00:50:56 ◼   ► visual design. But the problem is, you know, and this is one thing I think we're going to see

00:50:59 ◼   ► iOS 7 and the resulting iterations of that design language were fairly easy to design for.

00:51:06 ◼   ► Translucency is very difficult to design for because it's easy to come up with, again, marketing shots. It's

00:51:14 ◼   ► easy to come up with like ideal, you know, hand, hand selected example content or example designs

00:51:21 ◼   ► that show up nicely and you can scroll them to the right position. You can have like all these like

00:51:26 ◼   ► big, beautiful, full bleed images as your quote content that, you know, images where you don't

00:51:32 ◼   ► care what is being obscured because you are obscuring the bottom of it. Right. Yeah. Images where you've

00:51:36 ◼   ► shot them way wider than you actually needed them. Yeah. There's nothing down there in grass. Don't

00:51:39 ◼   ► worry about it. I'll never show you a picture where someone has a t-shirt on that you want to read

00:51:42 ◼   ► that's under there. Right. Exactly. But like, so when, when these designs hit the real world though,

00:51:47 ◼   ► it's very, very hard to design using translucency. We've, this is what, you know, Windows Vista tried

00:51:54 ◼   ► this a thousand years ago. Like this is why the computer industry is obsessed with designing with

00:51:59 ◼   ► translucency because it looks really cool in demos and marketing, but then you actually get to trying

00:52:04 ◼   ► to use it in a software design and it's very difficult and it doesn't, it's, it's very, it does not,

00:52:10 ◼   ► it's not very versatile. It does not adapt itself well to a lot of different circumstances.

00:52:15 ◼   ► And by the way, I will add to this that if, even if these floating bars were a hundred percent

00:52:19 ◼   ► opaque, you'd still have the content problem of like, you're letting my, you're forcing my content

00:52:23 ◼   ► to go behind a thing that obscures it. So even if it was a hundred percent opaque and what you're

00:52:28 ◼   ► getting to is they're not, so on top of it, not being a hundred percent opaque. Now there's

00:52:30 ◼   ► this problem of the translucency destroying the legibility of the actual controls that are floating,

00:52:36 ◼   ► but the content itself, the root problem is that you are forcing my content to go to the

00:52:40 ◼   ► bottom of the phone screen and then you're laying those acrylic things or whatever they are. You're

00:52:44 ◼   ► laying them on top of my content that I can no longer see. The bottom of my content is the bottom

00:52:48 ◼   ► of the phone, but you just lay your crap on top of it. And I can't, if there's no more place for me

00:52:52 ◼   ► to scroll, I can't ever see that part unless I stretch it up.

00:52:55 ◼   ► So what ends up happening in the designs when, when you design the stuff, like, first of all,

00:52:59 ◼   ► it's so hard to design legible text areas this way. And so you end up, you know, basically having two

00:53:05 ◼   ► different worlds of design on the phone. You have like the idealized version of the design, which seems

00:53:10 ◼   ► to be only designed to look good with scrolling lists of full, of large full bleed photos, which

00:53:19 ◼   ► admittedly that is a lot of apps people use. That is a lot of Apple's apps, but that's not all apps.

00:53:24 ◼   ► And when you, when you define a new systems design language, you have to accommodate all apps.

00:53:28 ◼   ► So again, there's a question of like, you know, where, how does this work with, you know, maybe

00:53:34 ◼   ► more boring apps? So again, you look at something like mail. I always love looking at mail because

00:53:37 ◼   ► mail is like the average app. It is a, you know, a list, it's, it's a table view or a list of text

00:53:44 ◼   ► entries and you tap them and you go in and like, what is, what is the content in mail? It's text,

00:53:50 ◼   ► it's lists of texts. So it's like, it's kind of like marketing proof in a way. Like you kind of,

00:53:56 ◼   ► you can see how a design works and doesn't work by opening up mail. And you can see like, okay,

00:54:01 ◼   ► here's, here's like how this hits the real world. The apps that many of us have to use on a regular

00:54:05 ◼   ► basis or design on a regular basis. Like how, how does mail work? And Safari is also a great example

00:54:11 ◼   ► because in Safari, you have to accommodate for not having any control over the content that's being

00:54:17 ◼   ► displayed. It's because if you're going to say, we're going to make room for all your content has

00:54:21 ◼   ► spotlight your content. Okay. What content example content designed by Apple designers or real world

00:54:27 ◼   ► content for this actually out there and uncontrolled and uncontrollable. And so, and mail and Safari are

00:54:33 ◼   ► these perfect examples of like their, their stress tests for designs because in Safari, you have like,

00:54:40 ◼   ► again, when John was saying like, you know, but when they tried years ago, that weird floating bar,

00:54:43 ◼   ► well, guess what? The new bar is way worse. Um, also closing a tab is now an extra tap. Hope,

00:54:49 ◼   ► hope you enjoy that. Um, yeah. Then the Safari thing, by the way, their solution back then was,

00:54:53 ◼   ► oh, we'll just add some new properties that, you know, new web kits, Safari on iOS specific properties

00:54:59 ◼   ► and just the whole world will just update their webpages. It's like, no, they won't, they won't just

00:55:03 ◼   ► won't be able to see the links that are at the bottom of a page. So many pages, when you scroll

00:55:07 ◼   ► them, the links are close enough to the bottom of the webpage that they will be obscured by the bar.

00:55:12 ◼   ► And what are people supposed to, they might not even know they're there. Maybe with a translucent

00:55:15 ◼   ► thing, they'll see some blurry thing behind there, but they'll be saying, how do I tap on that? It's

00:55:18 ◼   ► being blocked. Do I stretch it up with one finger and then tap on it? What if I can only, because you

00:55:22 ◼   ► can only like pull the page up so far before it's, before it like stops moving. It's just a bad idea.

00:55:27 ◼   ► That's why they didn't do it. And here we are. We're back here again.

00:55:30 ◼   ► We, we, we really should move on from the design and I know we're not going to be successful in it,

00:55:34 ◼   ► but I'm going to try to make us move on. And I'm going to offer my two cents, which is,

00:55:38 ◼   ► and I need you to hear me out. I hate it right now, but, but, but I genuinely think I'm going to love

00:55:46 ◼   ► it by the time they get themselves under control. And I know we just talked about this, so I'm not

00:55:51 ◼   ► going to belabor it, but I really think they way overkicked, you know, over in indulge themselves.

00:55:58 ◼   ► But I really do think that a lot of this in principle does work. I don't particularly disagree

00:56:05 ◼   ► with anything that you two said, to be honest with you, but that being said, I think that there's a

00:56:12 ◼   ► lot of potential here. And I feel like this is when it presents well, which admittedly is on Apple

00:56:20 ◼   ► slides and Apple demos and not as much anywhere else, or at least not today. Anyway, when it presents

00:56:25 ◼   ► well, it presents really well. And I really, really dig the direction they're going. I think

00:56:30 ◼   ► the magnitude is way too much right now. And I think they need to dial it back, but I'm enthusiastic

00:56:35 ◼   ► about it in principle. I think it's going to be really great. I ran call sheet against iOS 26 and

00:56:43 ◼   ► immediately wondered if I'm going to be able to get anything done this summer because, oh man,

00:56:48 ◼   ► there's a lot to do. But yes, that being said, I think modernizing the OS's is good. I think bringing

00:56:56 ◼   ► them together tastefully in principle is good. I think we could definitely go on a three hour rant

00:57:03 ◼   ► between the three of us as to where they went too far, where they didn't go far enough, mostly where

00:57:07 ◼   ► they went too far. But in general, I like the direction where all this is going. I think I'm

00:57:12 ◼   ► probably most enthusiastic about the three of us. And that's fine. And I'm really excited to see how

00:57:18 ◼   ► this turns out. And I hope by the end of the summer, I will be standing on top of your two carcasses

00:57:23 ◼   ► laughing, saying, ha ha, I was right, even though I'm not so confident that's what's going to happen.

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00:57:34 ◼   ► that this was going to be a wreck and they would never fix it. And it turns out they did. So we'll see

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00:59:37 ◼   ► Let's carry on with the keynote.

00:59:42 ◼   ► iOS 26.

00:59:43 ◼   ► Actually, yeah, well, on the topic of

00:59:45 ◼   ► iOS 26, and actually

00:59:46 ◼   ► touching on design, we were all scared they were going to make

00:59:49 ◼   ► the icon circles. They didn't.

00:59:50 ◼   ► Yay!

00:59:51 ◼   ► No, that is very good, actually.

00:59:52 ◼   ► Thumbs up for that. We were all scared they were going to change

00:59:54 ◼   ► the Squircle. I don't think they did.

00:59:57 ◼   ► Casey, can you confirm the Squircle is the same?

00:59:59 ◼   ► I think it's the same, but I don't have a discerning enough

01:00:02 ◼   ► eye to be able to tell you with certainty, but I believe you're correct.

01:00:04 ◼   ► Well, it doesn't matter. We all have to make new icons anyway.

01:00:06 ◼   ► You're right. And so the thing they did do

01:00:08 ◼   ► is they have an app for making icons,

01:00:11 ◼   ► which is nice. It's part of Xcode now,

01:00:12 ◼   ► Icon Composer. And their

01:00:14 ◼   ► idea for icons, which I think they've done

01:00:17 ◼   ► with all their icons, but it's not mandatory,

01:00:19 ◼   ► but it seems like the direction they want to go

01:00:20 ◼   ► is conceptual, again, with their little

01:00:22 ◼   ► physical toys, conceptualize

01:00:24 ◼   ► the icon as a layer of frosted glass pieces,

01:00:26 ◼   ► each of which is essentially a solid

01:00:28 ◼   ► color, solid filled vector

01:00:30 ◼   ► image. And then it's just like Photoshop

01:00:32 ◼   ► layers. You take three

01:00:34 ◼   ► vector images or like

01:00:36 ◼   ► I think the one they showed was like for the weather

01:00:38 ◼   ► app, blue background, white cloud,

01:00:40 ◼   ► yellow sun, and you just have dials.

01:00:42 ◼   ► How frosted do you want them to be? How translucent

01:00:44 ◼   ► do you want them to be? They put on little edges and glows,

01:00:46 ◼   ► all the things that you would do in Photoshop layers.

01:00:48 ◼   ► But your icon is essentially three

01:00:50 ◼   ► vector and three vector template

01:00:52 ◼   ► images that you combine or four or five or six.

01:00:54 ◼   ► However many layers you want to put

01:00:56 ◼   ► an icon composer will turn them into a frosted

01:00:58 ◼   ► glass looking icon. Apple's on it with a bunch of

01:01:00 ◼   ► their icons. And I think those icons

01:01:02 ◼   ► look pretty cool. They look like little pieces

01:01:04 ◼   ► of frosted glass. To Marco's point

01:01:06 ◼   ► earlier, it's a very opinionated style.

01:01:08 ◼   ► They say this is what we think icons should

01:01:10 ◼   ► look like. It's like, well, if you decided

01:01:12 ◼   ► your icon should look like a bunch of stack pieces of frosted

01:01:14 ◼   ► glass, that's cool. There is a functional

01:01:16 ◼   ► component to it because iOS and all

01:01:18 ◼   ► the other iOS is essentially let you say, oh,

01:01:20 ◼   ► but now that your icons are essentially a stack

01:01:22 ◼   ► of template images that we're applying effects

01:01:23 ◼   ► to, we can really easily make

01:01:26 ◼   ► you a dark mode version and we can

01:01:27 ◼   ► make you a clear version for our

01:01:29 ◼   ► 20th anniversary phone. It's going to be a clear

01:01:31 ◼   ► sheet of glass like because there's

01:01:34 ◼   ► nothing inherent like it's just data.

01:01:35 ◼   ► It's like vector shape color component

01:01:38 ◼   ► and for the clear one, we just

01:01:39 ◼   ► desaturate all the color component and make them very

01:01:41 ◼   ► transparent like it's a flexible way to

01:01:43 ◼   ► make variants of your icon because they are

01:01:45 ◼   ► structured icons. It's not just a grid

01:01:47 ◼   ► of pixels that you uploaded various sizes.

01:01:49 ◼   ► That is clever. It's interesting.

01:01:51 ◼   ► It does give you the ability to do

01:01:53 ◼   ► a lot of new things with your icons and

01:01:55 ◼   ► also every single icon that exists that is not

01:01:57 ◼   ► Apple icons is not one of those icons right now.

01:01:59 ◼   ► So how many, how many

01:02:01 ◼   ► apps are there on the app store? How many

01:02:03 ◼   ► icons quote unquote need to be

01:02:05 ◼   ► converted to this or what, you know, because we saw

01:02:07 ◼   ► before we have tinted icons today. We have dark mode

01:02:09 ◼   ► light mode. Not everybody did it and

01:02:11 ◼   ► not everyone's going to do this. And I feel like what they're

01:02:13 ◼   ► doing is producing the sort of sedimentary

01:02:16 ◼   ► layers of icon

01:02:17 ◼   ► design errors as they keep

01:02:19 ◼   ► introducing new and different ways to make icons.

01:02:21 ◼   ► I'm glad they didn't change the shape.

01:02:23 ◼   ► I'm glad they're still squircles. I think the

01:02:25 ◼   ► style is actually cool and interesting,

01:02:27 ◼   ► but now it's going to be

01:02:29 ◼   ► like, oh, I can see that is an icon

01:02:31 ◼   ► from this era in history. It's a Taylor Swift

01:02:33 ◼   ► error store, but it's the iOS icon

01:02:35 ◼   ► error store. It's just like

01:02:36 ◼   ► all these different icons made over the years

01:02:39 ◼   ► with different styles and

01:02:41 ◼   ► only the very newest ones will be

01:02:43 ◼   ► made of a bunch of layers of stuff. Like Casey,

01:02:45 ◼   ► your thing is the clapperboard for

01:02:46 ◼   ► call sheet. You could make that

01:02:49 ◼   ► out of a bunch of pieces of translucent

01:02:51 ◼   ► things, but like how many layers

01:02:53 ◼   ► is it? Is the clapperboard just one layer?

01:02:55 ◼   ► Do you make a bunch of the little stripes

01:02:57 ◼   ► individual pieces or

01:02:58 ◼   ► like, do you like, do you

01:03:00 ◼   ► deconstruct and then reconstruct your icon

01:03:02 ◼   ► from frosted glass or you just say, screw it, I'm keeping my icon the way

01:03:04 ◼   ► it is. It's fine. Yeah, I don't know.

01:03:06 ◼   ► And that's the thing is that there's

01:03:08 ◼   ► how many apps and then in any app

01:03:10 ◼   ► that's worth its salt, weight in gold,

01:03:12 ◼   ► I don't know what euphemism I'm looking for.

01:03:14 ◼   ► Any app that's any good is going to have a

01:03:16 ◼   ► bunch of alternative

01:03:18 ◼   ► icons. And so, yeah, this is a lot of work

01:03:20 ◼   ► for icon designers. Yeah. And again, like a lot

01:03:22 ◼   ► of big companies are just not there. Like most,

01:03:24 ◼   ► I'd say most big companies are just not going

01:03:26 ◼   ► to do this. Most, I mean, look, most

01:03:28 ◼   ► the thing is like iOS app

01:03:30 ◼   ► development for most companies

01:03:32 ◼   ► is not like the main thing they do.

01:03:34 ◼   ► They have, you know,

01:03:36 ◼   ► a whole, if they're a big company, they have a

01:03:38 ◼   ► mobile team and like

01:03:40 ◼   ► the specific like making

01:03:42 ◼   ► a perfect, you know,

01:03:44 ◼   ► icon that fits into iOS

01:03:46 ◼   ► is low on their priority list because they want the

01:03:48 ◼   ► same icon to be used everywhere

01:03:50 ◼   ► across all of their properties and all of their

01:03:52 ◼   ► apps and all of their platforms and everything else.

01:03:54 ◼   ► And then for small companies,

01:03:56 ◼   ► usually they can't afford

01:03:58 ◼   ► full-time iOS developers.

01:04:00 ◼   ► They might contract out the building of an app.

01:04:02 ◼   ► And then, then it's like, well,

01:04:04 ◼   ► you know, we, we had this app made

01:04:06 ◼   ► for us three years ago.

01:04:08 ◼   ► We have to call them back in now and spend

01:04:10 ◼   ► even more money to now remake

01:04:12 ◼   ► this app for the new theme and the new icon.

01:04:14 ◼   ► So a bunch of them will never update or will

01:04:15 ◼   ► take years to do it because they can't afford to.

01:04:17 ◼   ► And so then it's like, I think what we're going to have

01:04:20 ◼   ► is a very like split.

01:04:22 ◼   ► Look, we had the same thing with iOS 7,

01:04:24 ◼   ► the exact same problem with iOS 7.

01:04:26 ◼   ► Or dark mode icons.

01:04:27 ◼   ► Or, you know, like, is that like the current version

01:04:29 ◼   ► of iOS, it'll tint your icons.

01:04:31 ◼   ► You'd have no choice.

01:04:32 ◼   ► Like whatever your icon is,

01:04:33 ◼   ► they're going to try to tint it.

01:04:34 ◼   ► Then they'll do something.

01:04:36 ◼   ► And if you are, if you don't like how your icon looks,

01:04:37 ◼   ► then change it.

01:04:38 ◼   ► Tough luck.

01:04:38 ◼   ► Dark mode icons that are custom,

01:04:40 ◼   ► you'll do if you care about it.

01:04:42 ◼   ► And now it's like one more thing.

01:04:43 ◼   ► It's like, oh, well, if you really care,

01:04:44 ◼   ► you'd make these layered frosted glass template icons

01:04:46 ◼   ► that can look, that will look good in clear,

01:04:49 ◼   ► in tinted, in light mode, and in dark mode.

01:04:51 ◼   ► All right.

01:04:52 ◼   ► So speaking of,

01:04:53 ◼   ► they also are offering all clear app icons.

01:04:56 ◼   ► I'm trying to be positive on this episode,

01:04:57 ◼   ► so I'm not going to talk about those anymore.

01:04:59 ◼   ► They're going to go great with a 20th anniversary

01:05:01 ◼   ► complete sheet of glass phone.

01:05:03 ◼   ► I guess so.

01:05:04 ◼   ► The camera app did get simplified as we expected.

01:05:07 ◼   ► I like this in principle.

01:05:10 ◼   ► I don't love that in order to get to, say,

01:05:13 ◼   ► Pano or anything like that,

01:05:15 ◼   ► you just need to know where to swipe,

01:05:16 ◼   ► which is not great.

01:05:18 ◼   ► But, I mean, I don't really know what the alternative is.

01:05:21 ◼   ► Again, this is, this is Allen Dye design.

01:05:23 ◼   ► Like, the previous camera app

01:05:25 ◼   ► was a huge amount of complexity,

01:05:28 ◼   ► much of which was buried behind gestures.

01:05:30 ◼   ► The new camera app is a huge amount of complexity,

01:05:34 ◼   ► much of which is buried behind gestures.

01:05:37 ◼   ► It didn't really get easier.

01:05:38 ◼   ► It just got different.

01:05:39 ◼   ► It got glassier.

01:05:41 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:05:42 ◼   ► Like, okay, fine.

01:05:44 ◼   ► But, like, that's, you know, again,

01:05:46 ◼   ► he is the junk drawer theory of design.

01:05:48 ◼   ► Just sweep all the complexity into the junk drawer

01:05:50 ◼   ► and it's easy.

01:05:51 ◼   ► It's well designed now.

01:05:53 ◼   ► It's like, well, no.

01:05:54 ◼   ► You know, good design can adapt to

01:05:58 ◼   ► and reduce complexity,

01:05:59 ◼   ► not just hide it under the rug.

01:06:02 ◼   ► But this is hiding under the rug.

01:06:04 ◼   ► So, okay, I mean, it looks nice.

01:06:06 ◼   ► I think they added some hierarchy.

01:06:07 ◼   ► Like, it seems like they're surfacing more controls

01:06:09 ◼   ► that used to be more buried based on usage.

01:06:10 ◼   ► So I give a thumbs up to that.

01:06:11 ◼   ► Either way, I'm really am mixed about this

01:06:16 ◼   ► because I think the good news is

01:06:17 ◼   ► unsophisticated users are going to have a better time with it

01:06:22 ◼   ► until they want to do anything but the norm.

01:06:25 ◼   ► If they want to do anything but a photo or a video,

01:06:27 ◼   ► then they're going to be very confused very quickly.

01:06:29 ◼   ► But that's actually one of the things that argues

01:06:31 ◼   ► for hiding everything in junk drawers in the camera app

01:06:33 ◼   ► because so many people use it

01:06:34 ◼   ► and them accidentally tapping something

01:06:36 ◼   ► and not realizing it

01:06:37 ◼   ► is probably half the problems that they get.

01:06:38 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah.

01:06:39 ◼   ► We talked about, excuse me, photos

01:06:42 ◼   ► where they said many of you missed using tabs

01:06:44 ◼   ► in the photos app, which...

01:06:46 ◼   ► Unfortunately, we've totally ruined tabs

01:06:48 ◼   ► from this point on.

01:06:48 ◼   ► So sorry about that.

01:06:49 ◼   ► Oh, calm down.

01:06:50 ◼   ► We already covered it.

01:06:51 ◼   ► So anyway, so that's the thing.

01:06:53 ◼   ► That looked good to me.

01:06:54 ◼   ► Safari is the tab bar thing we already discussed.

01:06:58 ◼   ► The FaceTime, they talked about FaceTime a bit

01:07:00 ◼   ► and then they talked about CarPlay.

01:07:02 ◼   ► And I got to tell you, I'm really excited

01:07:05 ◼   ► about the look of new CarPlay

01:07:06 ◼   ► and perhaps the best couple of features.

01:07:08 ◼   ► Number one, tapbacks in CarPlay.

01:07:11 ◼   ► I don't know what the UI affordance is for that.

01:07:13 ◼   ► They showed it for a flash.

01:07:14 ◼   ► So I don't know how I could do a tapback in CarPlay.

01:07:17 ◼   ► You can go, hey, dingus, give that a thumbs up.

01:07:18 ◼   ► Maybe, I don't know.

01:07:19 ◼   ► Pin conversations and messages is really nice

01:07:22 ◼   ► because there's occasions.

01:07:23 ◼   ► I mean, obviously Aaron and I send texts

01:07:25 ◼   ► back and forth all day long,

01:07:26 ◼   ► even though we're in the same house together,

01:07:27 ◼   ► but there's occasions I'll be in the car

01:07:29 ◼   ► and she has fallen off the most recent,

01:07:31 ◼   ► like 10 conversations or whatever.

01:07:32 ◼   ► And it's much more burdensome to say,

01:07:36 ◼   ► hey, dingus, send a message to my wife.

01:07:38 ◼   ► What do you want it to say?

01:07:39 ◼   ► Well, tell her, blah, blah, blah.

01:07:40 ◼   ► And so anyways, having her always at the top is excellent.

01:07:43 ◼   ► Widgets and live activities are,

01:07:46 ◼   ► I am in full support of this,

01:07:48 ◼   ► although I don't know that that's a need

01:07:50 ◼   ► that I have in the car specifically, but I dig it.

01:07:54 ◼   ► iPhone widgets work in CarPlay, which is cool.

01:07:56 ◼   ► They also plugged CarPlay Ultra.

01:07:59 ◼   ► They said the first vehicles with CarPlay Ultra

01:08:03 ◼   ► just launched last month.

01:08:04 ◼   ► I presume they're more than one Aston Martin SUV.

01:08:06 ◼   ► I think they just mean that there's more than one copy

01:08:09 ◼   ► of the Aston Martin that has been sold.

01:08:11 ◼   ► I genuinely think.

01:08:12 ◼   ► They have sold three of them.

01:08:13 ◼   ► Right, exactly.

01:08:14 ◼   ► So weird, but yeah.

01:08:15 ◼   ► Anyway, and when they showed the interior

01:08:17 ◼   ► with the new look with CarPlay,

01:08:19 ◼   ► I think it has a better chance

01:08:22 ◼   ► of matching more cars interiors.

01:08:24 ◼   ► We talked about that when we talked about CarPlay Ultra,

01:08:26 ◼   ► like this sort of Fisher-Price candy-colored

01:08:28 ◼   ► iOS 7 CarPlay next to the,

01:08:30 ◼   ► you know, the punch-through of the seat adjustment

01:08:34 ◼   ► in the Aston Martin.

01:08:34 ◼   ► They didn't match styles.

01:08:35 ◼   ► This kind of glassy translucency,

01:08:38 ◼   ► the companies that design their own car interfaces

01:08:41 ◼   ► love this stuff.

01:08:42 ◼   ► They love gradients.

01:08:43 ◼   ► They love translucency,

01:08:44 ◼   ► so maybe this will be a better match

01:08:46 ◼   ► for more other manufacturers' UI.

01:08:49 ◼   ► Yeah, and it's funny because they said,

01:08:50 ◼   ► and this should be an almost verbatim quote,

01:08:53 ◼   ► this is just the start of the CarPlay Ultra journey

01:08:55 ◼   ► with many more brands around the world

01:08:56 ◼   ► looking to bring this experience to market.

01:08:58 ◼   ► Combining the marquees or, you know,

01:09:00 ◼   ► the manufacturers' unique look and feel

01:09:02 ◼   ► with the power of iPhone,

01:09:03 ◼   ► which here again, I think what they're nodding

01:09:05 ◼   ► in the direction of,

01:09:06 ◼   ► you don't have to make it look 100% like Apple.

01:09:08 ◼   ► You can do your own thing.

01:09:09 ◼   ► Just 50%.

01:09:10 ◼   ► Just 50%.

01:09:11 ◼   ► And before we move on,

01:09:12 ◼   ► I just wanted to point out

01:09:13 ◼   ► that they did say,

01:09:14 ◼   ► and I didn't get a chance to write down the quote,

01:09:16 ◼   ► but they said that when a call comes in,

01:09:18 ◼   ► for example,

01:09:18 ◼   ► it doesn't take over the entire friggin' screen

01:09:22 ◼   ► because that's the most annoying thing in the world

01:09:24 ◼   ► is when you're driving

01:09:25 ◼   ► and you have the map view up

01:09:27 ◼   ► and you're trying to, you know,

01:09:29 ◼   ► navigate and then somebody calls you

01:09:31 ◼   ► and you can't see your map anymore.

01:09:32 ◼   ► It's infuriating.

01:09:34 ◼   ► And now they have like a little toast-style thing

01:09:36 ◼   ► that pops up.

01:09:36 ◼   ► I am here for that.

01:09:39 ◼   ► Then Darren Adler came in

01:09:41 ◼   ► to discuss communication and whatnot.

01:09:42 ◼   ► They talked about how they did change

01:09:44 ◼   ► the look of the phone app.

01:09:46 ◼   ► There's now call screening,

01:09:47 ◼   ► which I presume is opt-in,

01:09:49 ◼   ► but it can automatically answer calls

01:09:50 ◼   ► from unknown numbers

01:09:51 ◼   ► and it'll like triage that

01:09:53 ◼   ► and it will ring through to your phone.

01:09:55 ◼   ► Like the phone won't actually ring

01:09:56 ◼   ► until the caller has identified themselves

01:09:59 ◼   ► and tells the phone why they're calling,

01:10:02 ◼   ► which I'll believe that if I see it,

01:10:05 ◼   ► but in principle, I dig it.

01:10:06 ◼   ► I mean, don't you all kind of do that today?

01:10:08 ◼   ► When I'm curious, I'll do the thing

01:10:09 ◼   ► where like you let it pick up the voicemail

01:10:11 ◼   ► and you see the little text going, right?

01:10:12 ◼   ► This is just more like automating

01:10:13 ◼   ► that process even further for you.

01:10:14 ◼   ► Hold assist, which again,

01:10:17 ◼   ► tentatively very excited.

01:10:19 ◼   ► We'll see what it's like in reality,

01:10:21 ◼   ► but the theory here is that

01:10:23 ◼   ► if you're on hold,

01:10:24 ◼   ► the iPhone will detect the Muzak that's playing

01:10:28 ◼   ► and it will let you do other things

01:10:30 ◼   ► and even effectively hang up the phone,

01:10:32 ◼   ► not literally hang up the phone,

01:10:33 ◼   ► but effectively hang up the phone.

01:10:35 ◼   ► And then once a lot,

01:10:36 ◼   ► and this is now a quote,

01:10:36 ◼   ► once a live agent becomes available,

01:10:38 ◼   ► we'll ring you to return to the call

01:10:39 ◼   ► and let the agent know you'll return shortly.

01:10:41 ◼   ► This is kind of really obnoxious

01:10:43 ◼   ► and I'm so here for it

01:10:44 ◼   ► because oh my gosh,

01:10:45 ◼   ► when you have to wait on hold for an hour,

01:10:47 ◼   ► it's infuriating.

01:10:49 ◼   ► And you know what?

01:10:50 ◼   ► I think this is a pretty great idea.

01:10:52 ◼   ► All right.

01:10:52 ◼   ► Well, so now, I mean,

01:10:53 ◼   ► this is maybe a wonderful moment in time

01:10:55 ◼   ► where we'll have this tool that will help us,

01:10:57 ◼   ► but you realize this is an arms race

01:10:58 ◼   ► because now,

01:10:59 ◼   ► so what this is doing is like,

01:11:00 ◼   ► there'll be a computer voice saying

01:11:01 ◼   ► just a moment,

01:11:03 ◼   ► Casey Liss will be back here in a moment.

01:11:05 ◼   ► We're ringing him now

01:11:06 ◼   ► because you've left him on hold for an hour.

01:11:08 ◼   ► It'd be great if they said that to the person,

01:11:10 ◼   ► but those people won't.

01:11:10 ◼   ► But anyway,

01:11:11 ◼   ► those people can also deploy a system

01:11:13 ◼   ► that's like,

01:11:13 ◼   ► well, we're not going to bother our operators

01:11:15 ◼   ► until we know that we have a live person.

01:11:16 ◼   ► So it's their robot talking to your robot

01:11:18 ◼   ► about who's going to be back when

01:11:19 ◼   ► and who's going to be called when.

01:11:21 ◼   ► You're hoping at some point,

01:11:22 ◼   ► both of them will agree

01:11:23 ◼   ► to ring the actual humans

01:11:24 ◼   ► and connect them on the call.

01:11:25 ◼   ► It's not,

01:11:28 ◼   ► yeah,

01:11:29 ◼   ► this is,

01:11:29 ◼   ► but anyway,

01:11:30 ◼   ► I endorse this

01:11:31 ◼   ► because this is a tool

01:11:32 ◼   ► for the world that we live in.

01:11:33 ◼   ► The world that we live in,

01:11:33 ◼   ► sometimes you got to be in hold for a long time

01:11:35 ◼   ► and you can't just be sitting there

01:11:36 ◼   ► listening to their terrible,

01:11:38 ◼   ► like overdriven clipping music

01:11:41 ◼   ► from whatever decade

01:11:42 ◼   ► interspersed with a message

01:11:44 ◼   ► that says your calls are important to them,

01:11:45 ◼   ► blah, blah, blah.

01:11:45 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:11:46 ◼   ► Messages get some new treats.

01:11:49 ◼   ► I'm an old,

01:11:49 ◼   ► so I don't care.

01:11:50 ◼   ► They get backgrounds.

01:11:51 ◼   ► They get group chats,

01:11:53 ◼   ► including polls,

01:11:53 ◼   ► which actually could be kind of cool.

01:11:55 ◼   ► Yeah, polls will be useful.

01:11:55 ◼   ► Requests send and receive cash.

01:11:57 ◼   ► Again, that could be useful.

01:11:58 ◼   ► What I'm really digging

01:11:59 ◼   ► is typing indicators for group chats,

01:12:01 ◼   ► including who is typing.

01:12:02 ◼   ► I'm here for that.

01:12:03 ◼   ► You could also screen unknown senders

01:12:06 ◼   ► when it comes to messages,

01:12:06 ◼   ► which is cool.

01:12:07 ◼   ► Then we've got Leslie Okamoto

01:12:10 ◼   ► who comes out

01:12:11 ◼   ► who talks about images

01:12:12 ◼   ► and how you can mix emoji

01:12:13 ◼   ► and make images using chat GPT

01:12:15 ◼   ► within the image playgrounds app.

01:12:17 ◼   ► Yeah, this is a theme of the

01:12:19 ◼   ► sort of sprinkle

01:12:20 ◼   ► throughout the rest of the thing

01:12:21 ◼   ► is we have a feature

01:12:22 ◼   ► that we introduced last year

01:12:23 ◼   ► that it's not that great.

01:12:24 ◼   ► We've slightly improved it.

01:12:25 ◼   ► Hopefully it's better.

01:12:25 ◼   ► But by the way,

01:12:26 ◼   ► we know we suck.

01:12:27 ◼   ► So just let chat GPT do this

01:12:29 ◼   ► because honestly,

01:12:30 ◼   ► image generation,

01:12:31 ◼   ► like if you've tried

01:12:32 ◼   ► to use their image playgrounds

01:12:34 ◼   ► or Genmoji

01:12:34 ◼   ► and tried to get it

01:12:36 ◼   ► to do something,

01:12:37 ◼   ► you either luck out

01:12:38 ◼   ► and it's one of the easy things

01:12:39 ◼   ► that it can do

01:12:40 ◼   ► or it's hopeless.

01:12:41 ◼   ► You will never get it

01:12:42 ◼   ► to do what you want.

01:12:43 ◼   ► But chat GPT

01:12:44 ◼   ► image generation

01:12:45 ◼   ► is amazing

01:12:46 ◼   ► and hopefully

01:12:47 ◼   ► they're exposing

01:12:48 ◼   ► the latest

01:12:48 ◼   ► and greatest version

01:12:49 ◼   ► of that.

01:12:49 ◼   ► Don't even bother

01:12:51 ◼   ► asking image playgrounds

01:12:52 ◼   ► to make your image

01:12:53 ◼   ► for you.

01:12:53 ◼   ► If you want

01:12:54 ◼   ► a Studio Ghibli-ified version

01:12:56 ◼   ► of a picture of yourself,

01:12:57 ◼   ► just ask chat GPT.

01:12:58 ◼   ► It'll do it in two seconds.

01:12:58 ◼   ► Setting aside

01:13:00 ◼   ► all of the intellectual property

01:13:01 ◼   ► and artistic concerns,

01:13:02 ◼   ► which are beside the point

01:13:04 ◼   ► in terms of just the quality,

01:13:06 ◼   ► chat GPT

01:13:07 ◼   ► can do this better

01:13:07 ◼   ► and Apple

01:13:08 ◼   ► everywhere

01:13:09 ◼   ► in their OS

01:13:09 ◼   ► is like,

01:13:09 ◼   ► we will not be able

01:13:10 ◼   ► to get better enough

01:13:11 ◼   ► to do at doing this

01:13:13 ◼   ► to announce this

01:13:14 ◼   ► this is WWC25.

01:13:15 ◼   ► So please add a

01:13:16 ◼   ► backdoor,

01:13:18 ◼   ► side hatch,

01:13:18 ◼   ► escape hatch

01:13:19 ◼   ► so that they can use

01:13:20 ◼   ► chat GPT.

01:13:21 ◼   ► And I hope they do this

01:13:22 ◼   ► in a way

01:13:22 ◼   ► where you're not getting

01:13:23 ◼   ► some baby-ified

01:13:24 ◼   ► ancient version

01:13:25 ◼   ► of chat GPT

01:13:26 ◼   ► that's not really good at it

01:13:27 ◼   ► or there are tons

01:13:27 ◼   ► of guardrails

01:13:28 ◼   ► or whatever

01:13:28 ◼   ► because we've seen that

01:13:30 ◼   ► before where asking

01:13:30 ◼   ► chat GPT correctly

01:13:31 ◼   ► produces an amazing result

01:13:32 ◼   ► but asking through

01:13:33 ◼   ► Apple's intermediary

01:13:34 ◼   ► does not.

01:13:35 ◼   ► And I think

01:13:37 ◼   ► what they said

01:13:37 ◼   ► on this

01:13:38 ◼   ► and all the other features

01:13:39 ◼   ► is like,

01:13:39 ◼   ► yeah,

01:13:39 ◼   ► when you do this,

01:13:40 ◼   ► we're sending your query

01:13:42 ◼   ► to chat GPT

01:13:42 ◼   ► and if you upload

01:13:44 ◼   ► an image,

01:13:44 ◼   ► we're sending that image

01:13:45 ◼   ► to them

01:13:46 ◼   ► and like,

01:13:46 ◼   ► they didn't make

01:13:46 ◼   ► as strong a privacy thing,

01:13:48 ◼   ► they just said,

01:13:48 ◼   ► look,

01:13:48 ◼   ► you have to opt into this.

01:13:49 ◼   ► So you are choosing

01:13:50 ◼   ► to do this

01:13:51 ◼   ► but there's kind of

01:13:52 ◼   ► no getting around

01:13:53 ◼   ► the fact that you

01:13:53 ◼   ► will be sending

01:13:54 ◼   ► your data to OpenAI

01:13:55 ◼   ► and if you don't

01:13:56 ◼   ► want to do that,

01:13:57 ◼   ► don't use this feature.

01:13:57 ◼   ► Yep.

01:13:58 ◼   ► They made mention

01:14:00 ◼   ► of the fact

01:14:00 ◼   ► that you can do

01:14:01 ◼   ► different image styles

01:14:02 ◼   ► like oil painting,

01:14:03 ◼   ► realistic image,

01:14:04 ◼   ► et cetera,

01:14:04 ◼   ► which they did not,

01:14:05 ◼   ► explicitly did not allow

01:14:06 ◼   ► in the prior version

01:14:07 ◼   ► of the image playgrounds.

01:14:08 ◼   ► And additionally,

01:14:09 ◼   ► there's an image

01:14:10 ◼   ► playground API,

01:14:11 ◼   ► which I thought

01:14:11 ◼   ► there was at least

01:14:11 ◼   ► a modicum of it

01:14:12 ◼   ► in the past

01:14:12 ◼   ► but apparently

01:14:13 ◼   ► there's either more

01:14:13 ◼   ► or new API this year.

01:14:15 ◼   ► Live translation,

01:14:16 ◼   ► which I really dig.

01:14:17 ◼   ► You can translate

01:14:18 ◼   ► conversations on the fly.

01:14:19 ◼   ► This is integrated

01:14:20 ◼   ► into messages,

01:14:20 ◼   ► FaceTime,

01:14:21 ◼   ► phone,

01:14:21 ◼   ► et cetera.

01:14:22 ◼   ► It's 100% on device.

01:14:23 ◼   ► The words are translated

01:14:24 ◼   ► as you talk

01:14:25 ◼   ► and they're spoken out loud

01:14:26 ◼   ► for the call recipient.

01:14:27 ◼   ► They did some demos

01:14:28 ◼   ► of this

01:14:29 ◼   ► and to their credit,

01:14:29 ◼   ► it did not appear

01:14:30 ◼   ► to be sped up

01:14:31 ◼   ► because the latency

01:14:32 ◼   ► looked like crap

01:14:33 ◼   ► if I'm honest with you

01:14:34 ◼   ► but I respect that.

01:14:35 ◼   ► To their credit,

01:14:36 ◼   ► yeah,

01:14:36 ◼   ► because if they were

01:14:38 ◼   ► going to speed it up,

01:14:39 ◼   ► they would have

01:14:39 ◼   ► sped it up from that.

01:14:40 ◼   ► They would have,

01:14:41 ◼   ► because it looks slow.

01:14:42 ◼   ► Here's the thing about this.

01:14:43 ◼   ► I love this.

01:14:43 ◼   ► I love this being

01:14:44 ◼   ► like a system level thing

01:14:45 ◼   ► that's everywhere

01:14:45 ◼   ► and being on device,

01:14:48 ◼   ► you know,

01:14:49 ◼   ► like the latency

01:14:50 ◼   ► is not network latency.

01:14:51 ◼   ► It is just like,

01:14:52 ◼   ► look,

01:14:52 ◼   ► this is how long it takes.

01:14:53 ◼   ► But the thing about

01:14:54 ◼   ► live translation models

01:14:56 ◼   ► is the gigantic ones

01:14:58 ◼   ► that you can't run

01:14:59 ◼   ► on your phone

01:14:59 ◼   ► are just better.

01:15:01 ◼   ► and this is the type

01:15:02 ◼   ► of like natural language

01:15:03 ◼   ► of real-time translation

01:15:04 ◼   ► is the type of thing

01:15:05 ◼   ► that I really wish

01:15:06 ◼   ► I would actually love

01:15:07 ◼   ► to year after year

01:15:10 ◼   ► get just the most

01:15:12 ◼   ► monstrous model

01:15:13 ◼   ► to do the translation

01:15:14 ◼   ► for me

01:15:14 ◼   ► that's not running

01:15:15 ◼   ► on my phone

01:15:16 ◼   ► because the data

01:15:16 ◼   ► you're sending back

01:15:17 ◼   ► and forth,

01:15:17 ◼   ► it's low volume of data.

01:15:19 ◼   ► It's latency sensitive,

01:15:20 ◼   ► so that's true,

01:15:21 ◼   ► but you're sending text

01:15:22 ◼   ► like the only thing

01:15:25 ◼   ► you care about

01:15:25 ◼   ► is like the round trip time,

01:15:26 ◼   ► but there's not going

01:15:27 ◼   ► to be sort of any upload

01:15:27 ◼   ► or download time.

01:15:28 ◼   ► It seems to me

01:15:30 ◼   ► that Google is

01:15:30 ◼   ► way ahead on this

01:15:32 ◼   ► in terms of the sophistication

01:15:33 ◼   ► of the translation.

01:15:34 ◼   ► We've already seen

01:15:34 ◼   ► a couple people

01:15:35 ◼   ► posting online

01:15:36 ◼   ► about how

01:15:36 ◼   ► people who spoke

01:15:38 ◼   ► both of the languages

01:15:39 ◼   ► saying this translation

01:15:40 ◼   ► isn't that great,

01:15:42 ◼   ► but like

01:15:42 ◼   ► the fact that it's there

01:15:44 ◼   ► at all is the important thing.

01:15:45 ◼   ► If you need it in a pinch

01:15:46 ◼   ► if you're in a foreign country,

01:15:47 ◼   ► if you're talking to somebody

01:15:48 ◼   ► who you don't understand

01:15:49 ◼   ► their language,

01:15:50 ◼   ► you want them to understand you,

01:15:51 ◼   ► you'll take anything

01:15:52 ◼   ► that kind of gets

01:15:53 ◼   ► the point across,

01:15:54 ◼   ► and so I love

01:15:55 ◼   ► that this is there,

01:15:56 ◼   ► but like

01:15:57 ◼   ► doing it all on device

01:15:58 ◼   ► really feels like

01:16:00 ◼   ► one of the things

01:16:01 ◼   ► I would look for

01:16:01 ◼   ► from Apple is like

01:16:02 ◼   ► I want the best

01:16:04 ◼   ► translation in the world,

01:16:05 ◼   ► and if I have a good

01:16:06 ◼   ► network connection,

01:16:07 ◼   ► do that.

01:16:07 ◼   ► Fall back to your local

01:16:08 ◼   ► model if you have to,

01:16:09 ◼   ► but just give me the best.

01:16:11 ◼   ► Like I would even

01:16:11 ◼   ► consider paying for that

01:16:13 ◼   ► because of the gap

01:16:13 ◼   ► between like

01:16:14 ◼   ► not particularly

01:16:16 ◼   ► sophisticated auto translation

01:16:17 ◼   ► and the world's best

01:16:18 ◼   ► is pretty big at this point.

01:16:20 ◼   ► Nevertheless,

01:16:20 ◼   ► I respect that they're doing it.

01:16:22 ◼   ► I respect that they didn't

01:16:23 ◼   ► speed it up, etc.

01:16:23 ◼   ► Then we get Kathy Lynn

01:16:24 ◼   ► to talk about Apple Music.

01:16:26 ◼   ► There's lyrics translation,

01:16:27 ◼   ► lyrics pronunciation,

01:16:28 ◼   ► which is cool

01:16:29 ◼   ► if you're listening to

01:16:30 ◼   ► something in a foreign language.

01:16:31 ◼   ► There's automix,

01:16:32 ◼   ► which also sounded pretty cool,

01:16:34 ◼   ► where it'll seamlessly go

01:16:35 ◼   ► from one song to the next,

01:16:36 ◼   ► you know,

01:16:37 ◼   ► similar to what a DJ would do,

01:16:38 ◼   ► including using time stretching

01:16:40 ◼   ► and beat matching.

01:16:40 ◼   ► I think that's neat.

01:16:41 ◼   ► Music pins for things

01:16:43 ◼   ► you want to listen to frequently.

01:16:44 ◼   ► I like that.

01:16:46 ◼   ► Maps gets to learn

01:16:47 ◼   ► your preferred routes

01:16:48 ◼   ► and it'll let you also

01:16:50 ◼   ► search visited places.

01:16:51 ◼   ► That sounds really useful to me.

01:16:53 ◼   ► Like, oh,

01:16:53 ◼   ► where did I get a bagel

01:16:54 ◼   ► a few weeks ago?

01:16:55 ◼   ► And I don't remember

01:16:56 ◼   ► the name of that place was,

01:16:57 ◼   ► but I know I went there.

01:16:59 ◼   ► If this works,

01:17:00 ◼   ► then I think that would be

01:17:01 ◼   ► really great.

01:17:02 ◼   ► Both of these things,

01:17:03 ◼   ► by the way,

01:17:04 ◼   ► music pins and visited places.

01:17:05 ◼   ► It amazes me how long

01:17:06 ◼   ► it has taken to Apple

01:17:07 ◼   ► to get around to these things,

01:17:08 ◼   ► but I'm so glad they have.

01:17:09 ◼   ► Like most third-party apps

01:17:10 ◼   ► are much better about this.

01:17:11 ◼   ► Recognizing,

01:17:13 ◼   ► kind of like you recognize

01:17:14 ◼   ► that not every button

01:17:15 ◼   ► on the face of a controller

01:17:16 ◼   ► is used with equal frequency.

01:17:18 ◼   ► Recognizing when you're in an app,

01:17:19 ◼   ► like you're probably

01:17:21 ◼   ► going to use one of your

01:17:22 ◼   ► top two or three playlists

01:17:24 ◼   ► way more often than the others.

01:17:25 ◼   ► You're probably in messages

01:17:26 ◼   ► going to message

01:17:26 ◼   ► the same handful of people

01:17:28 ◼   ► way more than all the other words.

01:17:29 ◼   ► The UI should reflect that.

01:17:30 ◼   ► Same with them

01:17:31 ◼   ► with visited places.

01:17:32 ◼   ► Yes, there's a search field

01:17:33 ◼   ► and you can search for stuff,

01:17:34 ◼   ► but what you're probably

01:17:36 ◼   ► interested in is someplace

01:17:37 ◼   ► you might have been before.

01:17:38 ◼   ► So privilege that in the UI.

01:17:40 ◼   ► Allow someone to pin

01:17:42 ◼   ► the things that they use frequently.

01:17:43 ◼   ► Give a special place

01:17:45 ◼   ► of privilege to

01:17:46 ◼   ► places that people

01:17:46 ◼   ► have been before

01:17:47 ◼   ► because they're highly likely

01:17:48 ◼   ► to go there again,

01:17:49 ◼   ► more likely than say

01:17:50 ◼   ► every other place

01:17:51 ◼   ► on the earth

01:17:51 ◼   ► that they haven't been.

01:17:52 ◼   ► And that's just basic,

01:17:54 ◼   ► obvious information hierarchy

01:17:56 ◼   ► and customization.

01:17:56 ◼   ► And yet it's taken

01:17:58 ◼   ► 26 versions of iOS,

01:18:00 ◼   ► not really,

01:18:01 ◼   ► to get to that point.

01:18:02 ◼   ► So kudos for them

01:18:04 ◼   ► for finally adding it,

01:18:05 ◼   ► but it's like,

01:18:06 ◼   ► oh, geez,

01:18:06 ◼   ► I'd forgotten even,

01:18:07 ◼   ► I'd almost given up

01:18:09 ◼   ► even wanting to,

01:18:10 ◼   ► and there is a way

01:18:11 ◼   ► it's up to pin playlists now,

01:18:12 ◼   ► but like more prominently

01:18:13 ◼   ► have a giant button up there

01:18:15 ◼   ► that's like,

01:18:15 ◼   ► yes,

01:18:15 ◼   ► this is the playlist

01:18:16 ◼   ► I use all the time.

01:18:17 ◼   ► Top left.

01:18:17 ◼   ► Love it.

01:18:18 ◼   ► Add it to every app,

01:18:19 ◼   ► please.

01:18:19 ◼   ► Then we've got wallet.

01:18:22 ◼   ► What do they talk about?

01:18:23 ◼   ► Car keys,

01:18:23 ◼   ► driver's licenses,

01:18:24 ◼   ► et cetera.

01:18:24 ◼   ► Apparently boarding passes

01:18:25 ◼   ► are getting better,

01:18:26 ◼   ► which I'm excited about.

01:18:28 ◼   ► They,

01:18:29 ◼   ► this was the first

01:18:30 ◼   ► share locking that I saw.

01:18:31 ◼   ► They said they're going

01:18:32 ◼   ► to be live,

01:18:32 ◼   ► shareable live flight statuses.

01:18:36 ◼   ► I joked in the show,

01:18:37 ◼   ► in our internal show notes,

01:18:38 ◼   ► RIP flighty.

01:18:39 ◼   ► Flighty is an amazing app

01:18:40 ◼   ► that does a lot more

01:18:41 ◼   ► than just this,

01:18:42 ◼   ► but it is a shot

01:18:43 ◼   ► across the bow.

01:18:44 ◼   ► Nevertheless,

01:18:44 ◼   ► what it is,

01:18:45 ◼   ► it's raising the bar for the,

01:18:46 ◼   ► like the Friday is for people

01:18:47 ◼   ► who really care about

01:18:48 ◼   ► and either fly a lot

01:18:50 ◼   ► or really care about the details

01:18:51 ◼   ► because it is just

01:18:51 ◼   ► best in class.

01:18:52 ◼   ► But what this does

01:18:53 ◼   ► is someone who is never

01:18:55 ◼   ► going to pay for flighty,

01:18:56 ◼   ► it gives them a baseline

01:18:57 ◼   ► level of functionality

01:18:58 ◼   ► that people aren't getting now,

01:19:01 ◼   ► like live activities

01:19:02 ◼   ► for your flight,

01:19:03 ◼   ► shareable flight status,

01:19:04 ◼   ► like every flight tracking app

01:19:06 ◼   ► has that in it,

01:19:07 ◼   ► but now this is something

01:19:08 ◼   ► that just comes with the OS

01:19:09 ◼   ► and I think that's appropriate.

01:19:10 ◼   ► Like what comes with the OS

01:19:12 ◼   ► should be baseline level

01:19:14 ◼   ► of pretty good

01:19:15 ◼   ► and if you are a quote unquote

01:19:17 ◼   ► pro user of flying

01:19:18 ◼   ► or whatever,

01:19:19 ◼   ► like then you step up

01:19:20 ◼   ► to a third party app

01:19:21 ◼   ► and so I don't think

01:19:23 ◼   ► it's a Sherlocking at all

01:19:24 ◼   ► and like I honestly

01:19:25 ◼   ► for people who like

01:19:26 ◼   ► fly very rarely,

01:19:27 ◼   ► it's almost impossible

01:19:28 ◼   ► to convince them

01:19:29 ◼   ► to pay for something

01:19:29 ◼   ► like flighty

01:19:30 ◼   ► because it is kind of like

01:19:30 ◼   ► a premium expert level product.

01:19:32 ◼   ► They just want the basics

01:19:33 ◼   ► and now it's built

01:19:34 ◼   ► into their phone.

01:19:35 ◼   ► I think I give this

01:19:35 ◼   ► a big thumbs up.

01:19:36 ◼   ► Yep.

01:19:37 ◼   ► And then they talked

01:19:38 ◼   ► about Apple Pay

01:19:39 ◼   ► where you can use

01:19:40 ◼   ► like point redemption

01:19:41 ◼   ► not only or installments

01:19:43 ◼   ► and I guess you could

01:19:44 ◼   ► already do that online

01:19:45 ◼   ► which I've done.

01:19:45 ◼   ► But now you can do it

01:19:46 ◼   ► when you pay, yeah.

01:19:47 ◼   ► But now you can do it

01:19:47 ◼   ► in person.

01:19:48 ◼   ► Additionally,

01:19:48 ◼   ► they're getting order tracking

01:19:49 ◼   ► beyond just Apple Pay orders

01:19:52 ◼   ► and I got to tell you

01:19:53 ◼   ► I have only seen this myself

01:19:55 ◼   ► like once or twice so far

01:19:57 ◼   ► but with stuff

01:19:58 ◼   ► that I've ordered

01:19:58 ◼   ► with Apple Pay

01:19:59 ◼   ► where you get the order

01:20:01 ◼   ► tracking information

01:20:02 ◼   ► in the wallet app.

01:20:03 ◼   ► I almost never see this personally

01:20:04 ◼   ► but apparently

01:20:05 ◼   ► this is going to go beyond

01:20:06 ◼   ► just Apple Pay orders

01:20:07 ◼   ► and they're going to sniff

01:20:08 ◼   ► through your email

01:20:09 ◼   ► and try to find

01:20:09 ◼   ► that sort of information

01:20:11 ◼   ► which I think is cool.

01:20:12 ◼   ► So again, jokingly

01:20:14 ◼   ► I said RIP parcel

01:20:15 ◼   ► in our internal show notes

01:20:17 ◼   ► and here again

01:20:18 ◼   ► I don't think it's quite

01:20:18 ◼   ► that simple

01:20:19 ◼   ► but it's still

01:20:21 ◼   ► quasi-Sherlocking

01:20:23 ◼   ► to a small degree.

01:20:23 ◼   ► The complication here

01:20:25 ◼   ► with any of these things

01:20:26 ◼   ► is like okay

01:20:27 ◼   ► we'll go through your email

01:20:28 ◼   ► to figure this out.

01:20:28 ◼   ► Where do you think

01:20:29 ◼   ► my email is Apple?

01:20:30 ◼   ► It's not an Apple mail.

01:20:31 ◼   ► Oh, well, never mind then.

01:20:33 ◼   ► You know, like it really

01:20:34 ◼   ► like all these things

01:20:35 ◼   ► like the Google

01:20:36 ◼   ► Google's been uploading

01:20:37 ◼   ► this feature for years

01:20:38 ◼   ► but they want your mail

01:20:39 ◼   ► to be in Gmail

01:20:40 ◼   ► otherwise they can't see

01:20:41 ◼   ► your mail as easily

01:20:42 ◼   ► or at all

01:20:43 ◼   ► and so yeah

01:20:44 ◼   ► this is

01:20:44 ◼   ► these sort of

01:20:46 ◼   ► context-aware things

01:20:46 ◼   ► I wish they weren't

01:20:47 ◼   ► so siloed

01:20:48 ◼   ► but it's just the nature

01:20:49 ◼   ► of the beast these days.

01:20:50 ◼   ► Yeah, there's a whole bunch

01:20:51 ◼   ► of features like this

01:20:52 ◼   ► that Apple adds every year

01:20:53 ◼   ► that are like

01:20:54 ◼   ► you know, kind of

01:20:55 ◼   ► boil the ocean problems

01:20:56 ◼   ► of like well

01:20:57 ◼   ► if we can get

01:20:58 ◼   ► a whole bunch of

01:20:59 ◼   ► you know, different people

01:21:00 ◼   ► and companies

01:21:00 ◼   ► and sometimes governments

01:21:01 ◼   ► and some of these features

01:21:02 ◼   ► on board

01:21:03 ◼   ► with our system

01:21:05 ◼   ► this will be great

01:21:06 ◼   ► and they have

01:21:07 ◼   ► you know, a mixed track record

01:21:09 ◼   ► of actually doing that

01:21:10 ◼   ► sometimes the things

01:21:11 ◼   ► they do that way

01:21:12 ◼   ► do work out

01:21:13 ◼   ► usually there has to be

01:21:14 ◼   ► a decent incentive

01:21:15 ◼   ► for the other party

01:21:16 ◼   ► you know, or parties

01:21:17 ◼   ► to do it

01:21:18 ◼   ► and a lot of the things

01:21:20 ◼   ► they're like

01:21:20 ◼   ► we have a new

01:21:21 ◼   ► a brand new

01:21:21 ◼   ► like you were saying earlier

01:21:22 ◼   ► John about the web stuff

01:21:23 ◼   ► like you know

01:21:24 ◼   ► we're going to declare

01:21:25 ◼   ► a new CSS property

01:21:25 ◼   ► to fix this layout bug

01:21:26 ◼   ► on the iPhone

01:21:27 ◼   ► every web page

01:21:27 ◼   ► will update

01:21:28 ◼   ► right

01:21:28 ◼   ► it's like

01:21:29 ◼   ► you know

01:21:29 ◼   ► if it's like

01:21:30 ◼   ► we've declared

01:21:31 ◼   ► a new standard

01:21:32 ◼   ► it's superior

01:21:33 ◼   ► to all the other standards

01:21:34 ◼   ► because it's private

01:21:34 ◼   ► and it's secure

01:21:36 ◼   ► and it only works

01:21:37 ◼   ► on our devices

01:21:38 ◼   ► but it's

01:21:39 ◼   ► it's going to be great

01:21:40 ◼   ► as long as we get

01:21:40 ◼   ► all these different companies

01:21:41 ◼   ► or whatever

01:21:42 ◼   ► to participate

01:21:43 ◼   ► those have

01:21:44 ◼   ► a much higher

01:21:45 ◼   ► miss rate

01:21:46 ◼   ► so it's great

01:21:47 ◼   ► when they hit

01:21:48 ◼   ► or

01:21:48 ◼   ► it's great

01:21:49 ◼   ► like if they hit

01:21:50 ◼   ► in a way

01:21:51 ◼   ► that like

01:21:51 ◼   ► the app

01:21:52 ◼   ► or service

01:21:53 ◼   ► or whatever

01:21:53 ◼   ► that you use

01:21:54 ◼   ► happens to work

01:21:55 ◼   ► with it

01:21:56 ◼   ► great

01:21:56 ◼   ► but

01:21:57 ◼   ► a lot of these features

01:21:58 ◼   ► we kind of have to view

01:21:59 ◼   ► through the lens

01:22:00 ◼   ► like well

01:22:00 ◼   ► that might be great

01:22:02 ◼   ► like in 10 years

01:22:03 ◼   ► when it gets adoption

01:22:04 ◼   ► if ever

01:22:04 ◼   ► but you know

01:22:06 ◼   ► maybe not necessarily

01:22:07 ◼   ► anytime soon

01:22:08 ◼   ► my impression

01:22:09 ◼   ► with the order tracking

01:22:10 ◼   ► is they're doing

01:22:10 ◼   ► what Google does

01:22:11 ◼   ► which is

01:22:11 ◼   ► we will look

01:22:12 ◼   ► at your entirely

01:22:13 ◼   ► unstructured

01:22:14 ◼   ► probably HTML email

01:22:15 ◼   ► and we will rummage

01:22:16 ◼   ► through it

01:22:17 ◼   ► and try to find things

01:22:17 ◼   ► that we think

01:22:18 ◼   ► are information

01:22:18 ◼   ► about orders

01:22:19 ◼   ► and we will extract

01:22:20 ◼   ► that information

01:22:20 ◼   ► from totally unstructured

01:22:22 ◼   ► text data

01:22:22 ◼   ► and turn it into

01:22:24 ◼   ► a parcel

01:22:24 ◼   ► alert type thing

01:22:26 ◼   ► Google's been doing

01:22:27 ◼   ► again for years

01:22:27 ◼   ► Google does a pretty

01:22:29 ◼   ► good job

01:22:29 ◼   ► of looking at

01:22:30 ◼   ► any old email

01:22:31 ◼   ► and these

01:22:31 ◼   ► these companies

01:22:32 ◼   ► that are sending

01:22:32 ◼   ► you messages

01:22:33 ◼   ► about your orders

01:22:34 ◼   ► aren't in cooperation

01:22:35 ◼   ► with Google

01:22:35 ◼   ► in fact many of them

01:22:36 ◼   ► like Amazon

01:22:37 ◼   ► intentionally started

01:22:37 ◼   ► omitting information

01:22:38 ◼   ► from their email

01:22:39 ◼   ► so they didn't want

01:22:40 ◼   ► Google to know

01:22:40 ◼   ► what you were ordering

01:22:41 ◼   ► because they used

01:22:41 ◼   ► that to sell ads

01:22:42 ◼   ► against and there was

01:22:42 ◼   ► this whole battle

01:22:43 ◼   ► and blah blah blah

01:22:43 ◼   ► I'm assuming

01:22:46 ◼   ► that's what Apple

01:22:46 ◼   ► is doing

01:22:47 ◼   ► that there is no

01:22:47 ◼   ► standard that anyone

01:22:48 ◼   ► needs to comply to

01:22:49 ◼   ► Apple will just

01:22:49 ◼   ► rummage through

01:22:50 ◼   ► your email

01:22:50 ◼   ► which is totally

01:22:52 ◼   ► unstructured

01:22:52 ◼   ► and they'll figure it

01:22:53 ◼   ► out

01:22:53 ◼   ► and I trust

01:22:55 ◼   ► Google much more

01:22:56 ◼   ► than Apple

01:22:56 ◼   ► to successfully

01:22:57 ◼   ► extract order

01:22:58 ◼   ► information from

01:22:59 ◼   ► unstructured emails

01:23:00 ◼   ► just because they've

01:23:00 ◼   ► been doing it for

01:23:01 ◼   ► years and years

01:23:01 ◼   ► and it's not

01:23:02 ◼   ► Apple's strength

01:23:03 ◼   ► but it does

01:23:04 ◼   ► I think it does

01:23:04 ◼   ► rely on you

01:23:05 ◼   ► using Apple Mail

01:23:06 ◼   ► because otherwise

01:23:06 ◼   ► Apple doesn't have

01:23:07 ◼   ► access to your mail

01:23:08 ◼   ► so there's that

01:23:09 ◼   ► and then we move

01:23:12 ◼   ► and then we move on

01:23:12 ◼   ► to gaming

01:23:14 ◼   ► with Ann Tai

01:23:15 ◼   ► apparently over

01:23:17 ◼   ► half a billion

01:23:17 ◼   ► people play games

01:23:18 ◼   ► on the iPhone

01:23:19 ◼   ► and they've

01:23:20 ◼   ► announced a new

01:23:20 ◼   ► games app

01:23:22 ◼   ► which is the new

01:23:22 ◼   ► destination to help

01:23:23 ◼   ► you get more out

01:23:24 ◼   ► of your games

01:23:24 ◼   ► apparently the app

01:23:26 ◼   ► itself works with

01:23:26 ◼   ► the controller

01:23:27 ◼   ► if I understood

01:23:27 ◼   ► the keynote right

01:23:28 ◼   ► which is kind of

01:23:29 ◼   ► cool and they

01:23:30 ◼   ► talked a lot about

01:23:31 ◼   ► how you can play

01:23:32 ◼   ► games together

01:23:33 ◼   ► including first player

01:23:34 ◼   ► games but I kind

01:23:35 ◼   ► of zoned out

01:23:35 ◼   ► during this portion

01:23:36 ◼   ► so I didn't catch

01:23:37 ◼   ► the specifics

01:23:38 ◼   ► I don't know

01:23:38 ◼   ► if either of you

01:23:38 ◼   ► did but in

01:23:40 ◼   ► principle it sounds

01:23:41 ◼   ► good so this is

01:23:42 ◼   ► a boil the oceans

01:23:42 ◼   ► thing like Marco

01:23:43 ◼   ► was talking about

01:23:43 ◼   ► as long as game

01:23:44 ◼   ► developers use our

01:23:45 ◼   ► new APIs and it's

01:23:46 ◼   ► like you can't even

01:23:46 ◼   ► get them to get

01:23:47 ◼   ► make games for

01:23:48 ◼   ► your platform that

01:23:49 ◼   ► aren't just ports

01:23:50 ◼   ► like to use the

01:23:51 ◼   ► custom phone

01:23:53 ◼   ► platform APIs to

01:23:54 ◼   ► do things like

01:23:55 ◼   ► challenges and

01:23:55 ◼   ► leaderboards if

01:23:56 ◼   ► there's any kind

01:23:57 ◼   ► of game that has

01:23:58 ◼   ► that that wasn't

01:23:59 ◼   ► it's not iOS only

01:24:01 ◼   ► they already have

01:24:01 ◼   ► their own system

01:24:02 ◼   ► for that they're

01:24:02 ◼   ► not going to

01:24:03 ◼   ► incorporate your

01:24:03 ◼   ► thing like it's

01:24:05 ◼   ► just it's more so

01:24:06 ◼   ► on the Mac that

01:24:06 ◼   ► it's like pulling

01:24:07 ◼   ► teeth to get them

01:24:07 ◼   ► to port the game

01:24:08 ◼   ► at all but in

01:24:09 ◼   ► iOS even though a

01:24:10 ◼   ► lot of games are

01:24:10 ◼   ► made for iOS so

01:24:11 ◼   ► many games they're

01:24:12 ◼   ► made for the very

01:24:13 ◼   ► least iOS and

01:24:14 ◼   ► Android and some

01:24:14 ◼   ► of them are just

01:24:15 ◼   ► across every platform

01:24:16 ◼   ► and those games are

01:24:17 ◼   ► never going to use

01:24:18 ◼   ► these Apple APIs

01:24:19 ◼   ► because if they want

01:24:21 ◼   ► this feature it has

01:24:22 ◼   ► to work on PC on

01:24:23 ◼   ► game consoles on

01:24:25 ◼   ► iOS on Android and

01:24:26 ◼   ► they're never going

01:24:26 ◼   ► to port to the Mac

01:24:27 ◼   ► I mean some of this

01:24:28 ◼   ► so okay the games

01:24:29 ◼   ► app like so one

01:24:32 ◼   ► thing that struck me

01:24:32 ◼   ► about it is that it

01:24:33 ◼   ► actually is useful

01:24:35 ◼   ► even like you know I

01:24:35 ◼   ► I just launched it

01:24:36 ◼   ► on my beta phone

01:24:37 ◼   ► which is full of

01:24:38 ◼   ► games that don't

01:24:39 ◼   ► support it because

01:24:39 ◼   ► it just came out

01:24:40 ◼   ► and these games

01:24:41 ◼   ► haven't updated yet

01:24:41 ◼   ► of course because

01:24:42 ◼   ► they can't yet

01:24:43 ◼   ► and it actually does

01:24:45 ◼   ► have value in the

01:24:47 ◼   ► sense that like it

01:24:48 ◼   ► is basically like a

01:24:49 ◼   ► games launcher and

01:24:51 ◼   ► games promotion area

01:24:53 ◼   ► the question for me

01:24:54 ◼   ► so okay it's designed

01:24:55 ◼   ► a lot like the TV

01:24:56 ◼   ► app where okay

01:24:58 ◼   ► here's the latest

01:24:59 ◼   ► games you can

01:24:59 ◼   ► continue playing the

01:25:00 ◼   ► games you played

01:25:01 ◼   ► most recently

01:25:02 ◼   ► is that buried

01:25:03 ◼   ► three screens down

01:25:03 ◼   ► to continue playing

01:25:04 ◼   ► the game you played

01:25:05 ◼   ► but here's some new

01:25:05 ◼   ► games you might want

01:25:06 ◼   ► to play instead

01:25:06 ◼   ► yeah it is I mean

01:25:08 ◼   ► you know they're

01:25:08 ◼   ► going to do that but

01:25:09 ◼   ► no I mean no right

01:25:10 ◼   ► now it is on it is

01:25:11 ◼   ► above the fold but

01:25:12 ◼   ► it's near the bottom

01:25:13 ◼   ► of the fold and