00:00:40 ◼ ► So I read that that blue tax or whatever emulator where I ran Android to sign up for the family
00:00:52 ◼ ► I feel like I and I obviously I was a YouTuber for like 10 minutes several years ago and I
00:00:58 ◼ ► don't recall one way or the other what what amount of control the people who make the video
00:01:17 ◼ ► It is well since crossed the Rubicon from, OK, you know, I'm going to watch an ad or two
00:01:23 ◼ ► Not unlike this very program to, oh, my gosh, can I go 15 seconds without getting interrupted
00:01:38 ◼ ► It's like once you have it's like like mice, like once you have two ads, there will become
00:01:58 ◼ ► and play hide and go screw themselves because reading from The Verge, an appeals court has
00:02:14 ◼ ► Coming back to The Verge, the court has said it was not persuaded that blocking the order
00:02:22 ◼ ► whether Apple would irreparably be harmed and whether other parties would be hurt if the
00:02:32 ◼ ► To nobody's surprise, Apple was not able to prove that allowing people to link to a website
00:02:49 ◼ ► You know, this story is not over and it won't be over for probably another few years, I would
00:02:54 ◼ ► But it's looking like for the time being, probably because, you know, with just a system, it's
00:03:03 ◼ ► But for now, for the time being, it probably looks like Apple will be forced to allow people
00:03:24 ◼ ► You know, if you want to temporarily do this and view it as a temporary thing for now that
00:03:32 ◼ ► This is something that can be changed or taken away abruptly in the future as soon as Apple
00:03:51 ◼ ► So treat it as a a temporary situation that you might be able to use and that might bear
00:03:59 ◼ ► Like, for instance, like, you know, I don't think I'm going to be doing anything with this
00:04:05 ◼ ► But second of all, like, if you have this in your app, Apple might make your app reviews
00:04:13 ◼ ► Every time you start to submit an update, you might get held up an app review for a long
00:04:16 ◼ ► Like, maybe Apple introduces a new API and they say, you aren't allowed to use this API if
00:04:22 ◼ ► Like, there's all sorts of ways that they can and probably will retaliate against apps that
00:04:27 ◼ ► So if you are choosing to use this, you have to bear in mind that kind of risk is also part
00:04:36 ◼ ► But, you know, they're the advantage of being able to link out to the web for payments is
00:04:42 ◼ ► that a lot of types of businesses just become possible that weren't really possible before.
00:04:50 ◼ ► But like also entire business models or payment structures or, you know, types of products
00:04:57 ◼ ► and services offered entire things that weren't possible under Apple system can now be possible.
00:05:08 ◼ ► But keep in mind, if you go in, like there are there are potential risks and downsides.
00:05:16 ◼ ► Nathaniel writes, in the after show of episode 641, Marco was recommending a DeWalt LED work
00:05:27 ◼ ► They're cheap as anything, look dumb and would probably die or break with any level of frequent
00:05:32 ◼ ► But they are a game changer when working in weird spaces where your arms or hands are going
00:05:38 ◼ ► I've used them while working in awkward parts of my car, messing with cables behind TVs and
00:05:47 ◼ ► I don't think that Nathaniel is claiming that the particular example that he cited, which will
00:06:07 ◼ ► Yeah, I definitely took a look and I'm like, I would only wear these in jobs where nobody
00:06:14 ◼ ► But also, part of the reason why headlamps are amazing and part of the reason headlamps
00:06:30 ◼ ► Like if you turn your head for a second, maybe you don't want the light source to change.
00:06:33 ◼ ► I think I would have a similar minor paper cut annoyance with these, but maybe even a more
00:06:39 ◼ ► major version of it of like, if I move my hands at all, the angle of the light will change.
00:06:56 ◼ ► The use case that got me here was like the messing around with stuff behind TVs because
00:07:09 ◼ ► My, you know, I can't get my head down to being two inches off the ground to shine my headlamp
00:07:17 ◼ ► hands are down there, you know, messing around with the cables or even if you're just trying
00:07:26 ◼ ► You put a work light on the floor, you got your headlamp on your head and you got these
00:07:29 ◼ ► things on your gloves and the ones in the picture are it's like one light on your thumb, one light
00:08:02 ◼ ► You can, you know, browse social feeds and those are mostly just ads and stuff that makes you
00:08:18 ◼ ► It's the only streaming platform where you can learn and grow with over 200 of the world's
00:08:24 ◼ ► And, you know, instead of doom scrolling, you can spend that time accessing all of Masterclass's
00:08:29 ◼ ► insights anytime, anywhere on your phone, on your computer, even your smart TV or audio
00:08:36 ◼ ► For still only $10 a month billed annually, a membership with Masterclass gets you unlimited
00:08:47 ◼ ► I guarantee you look through their catalog and you will find lots of stuff that you probably
00:08:58 ◼ ► You can do things like bring your dream home to life on any budget with Joanna Gaines, improve
00:09:02 ◼ ► your physical and mental well-being with leading gut and brain health experts, turn your passion
00:09:18 ◼ ► So for every challenge and interest you might have, Masterclass offers essential insights and
00:10:07 ◼ ► Wait, is the idea that like, is homing like a missile and honing is like sharpening something?
00:10:18 ◼ ► into fashion, but homed is the earlier one and the other one is derived from it because
00:10:28 ◼ ► Mark Gurman writes, I'm told that the company is homed with an M in on Lake Tahoe as its
00:10:36 ◼ ► It's a famous resort area and a vacation destination and second home site for many Apple employees.
00:10:46 ◼ ► The most West Coast thing I think I've heard, a really Silicon Valley thing I've heard in a
00:11:09 ◼ ► No, you had the right logic too, which I think I agreed with, which is like, oh, rich people
00:11:52 ◼ ► So continuing from Mac rumors, according to individuals familiar with the matter cited by Apple Insider,
00:12:00 ◼ ► The MacBook Pro 2018, the iMac 2019, beloved, dear, dear departed friend from Marco and myself,
00:12:22 ◼ ► Yeah, I went back and reviewed our many past discussions about the moment we thought a Mac OS would drop Intel support.
00:12:29 ◼ ► And I think Apple is past like all of our predictions at this point, because if you just did the straight math about like comparing Power PC to Intel and 68K to Power PC, they're past that date for sure.
00:12:52 ◼ ► And then you've got that that one year to run out until 2027 when it's not supported anymore.
00:12:55 ◼ ► And anyway, I'm just glad my Mac Pro is still supported, which lets me potentially continue to delay my new Mac decision, depending on what is announced.
00:13:02 ◼ ► But again, my goal, as discussed in a couple episodes ago, my goal is in 2025 to make a decision and purchase a new Mac.
00:13:21 ◼ ► Like, yes, it's great that my Mac Pro is supported and lots of Intel Macs aren't supported.
00:13:43 ◼ ► Johnny Ive and Laureen Powell Jobs have given a rare joint interview to the Financial Times addressing their collaboration, their concerns about technology, social impact, and OpenAI's mysterious hardware device.
00:14:21 ◼ ► Ive deftly dodges my attempts to get him to tell me what it is, but hints that he was motivated by a disillusionment with how our relationship with devices has evolved.
00:14:34 ◼ ► He says, whatever the device is, driving its design is, quote, a sense of we deserve better.
00:14:45 ◼ ► Again, from the article, Ive says the collaboration with Altman and OpenAI has revived his optimism in technology.
00:14:52 ◼ ► Quote, when I first moved here in 1992, I came because it was characterized by people who genuinely saw that their purpose was in service to humanity, to inspire people, and to help people create.
00:15:09 ◼ ► Quote, we now know unambiguously that there are dark uses for certain types of technology.
00:15:13 ◼ ► You can only look at the studies being done on teenage girls, non-anxiety, and young people, and the rise of mental health needs to understand that we've gone sideways.
00:15:19 ◼ ► Certainly, technology wasn't designed to have that result, but that is the sideways result.
00:15:24 ◼ ► So, both of these things is like, oh, technology used to be better, and people were more optimistic.
00:15:33 ◼ ► We've talked about it on the show, various angles, and I just said, that sounds like you guys, too.
00:15:37 ◼ ► But very often in the larger technology community, I feel like that feeling is centered a lot on the AILM stuff, don't you?
00:15:47 ◼ ► Maybe I'm wrong about that, but my impression is that a lot of people who are grumpy about technology are grumpy about, quote-unquote, AI stuff,
00:15:57 ◼ ► Instead of you doing it yourself, you just get the computer to do it, and the whole issue is over using other people's work to make these things or whatever.
00:16:08 ◼ ► He always says, I'm disillusioned with technology, and the thing that I made, I'm disillusioned with what I made, and the ill effects, and so on and so forth.
00:16:15 ◼ ► It's like, okay, I get to see that people are on their phones too much or whatever, but he always tries to connect that, too, and that's why I'm doing this new thing.
00:16:25 ◼ ► And I'm like, please make that connection for me better, because I don't quite see, especially since you're not going to say exactly what you're doing,
00:16:31 ◼ ► but it's not as if it's like, well, of course, now I don't need to mention that what we're doing now will not fall into that trap.
00:16:39 ◼ ► And Pal Jobs saying specifically about, like, teenage girls and mental health and anxiety is, you know, they're on their phones all the time and Instagram or whatever.
00:16:50 ◼ ► Just coincidentally, that very day, I had read something about OpenAI, a company involved in this thing,
00:17:01 ◼ ► It was like the number six chatbots on this, like, leaderboard or whatever of chatbots people are using is some looks-maxing GPT.
00:17:13 ◼ ► It's telling people to feel bad about yourself and to have, you know, surgery to make yourself look better and saying mean things to people.
00:17:19 ◼ ► This is OpenAI's, like, it's not OpenAI's specific thing, but this is OpenAI's own page that they're promoting this chatbot,
00:17:25 ◼ ► which is based on LLM technology, which is doing almost exactly the thing that Lorraine Pal Jobs was complaining about.
00:17:51 ◼ ► I think AI is the, you know, crypto of today in that a lot of people are like, what the what is this about?
00:17:59 ◼ ► I have very complicated thoughts with AI and I actually had another Vibe coding session, which is not worth talking about today.
00:18:15 ◼ ► And I'm just saying I feel I feel that pushback a lot in a lot of circles that people don't like the AI stuff.
00:18:21 ◼ ► I'm I am not on one strongly on one side of the other, because, as you know, like we've all said that we found it very useful.
00:18:28 ◼ ► And I don't think it's like crypto because AI LMS have tons of obvious uses that people are using it for and are willing to pay for it.
00:18:40 ◼ ► And one of them is the thing of like, let's just make a chatbot and let people talk to it.
00:18:46 ◼ ► Even when like Fortnite added the Darth Vader thing with the James Earl Jones licensed voice or whatever, and it started cursing at people like there is no it's so cool that you can make this look, we made a chatbot.
00:18:55 ◼ ► But like sometimes this looks maxing thing looks like it's maliciously made to begin with is trying to make people feel bad about themselves, which is terrible, which is why it shouldn't be on open eyes page.
00:19:03 ◼ ► But even when you're not trying to do that, the Fortnite people are trying to have a fun Darth Vader in a game that's fun to play with.
00:19:09 ◼ ► Surely they don't want it to start saying bad things, but it does because this technology is immature and not entirely under the control of the people that make it.
00:19:19 ◼ ► And so what I see like, oh, I'm disillusioned with technology and these unintended ill side effects.
00:19:23 ◼ ► It's like, well, if you want unintended ill side effects, have I got a technology for you?
00:19:28 ◼ ► Apparently it's going to be the basis for this great new product that you're working together on.
00:19:32 ◼ ► There's a couple of quick points of clarification on my own part, because I don't think I was being clear at all.
00:19:51 ◼ ► And then secondly, I think I distracted myself earlier, but I think other than AI, a lot of people have been saying that, look, our relationship with our phones and, you know, we never look up anymore.
00:20:00 ◼ ► We're all addicted to social media to some way, to some degree, generally speaking, that's probably not healthy.
00:20:05 ◼ ► Certainly my understanding of, you know, teenage and young-ish women, my understanding is they are in particular, as was mentioned earlier, in a real bad spot because of the peer and societal pressure that's put on them.
00:20:18 ◼ ► So there's a lot to be grumbly about with regards to technology, but I think, nevertheless, I agree with you wholeheartedly that I am not getting from A to B here.
00:20:30 ◼ ► The more we hear from Johnny Ive about what he's doing, it keeps sounding more and more like betting against the smartphone.
00:20:45 ◼ ► You know, we've had a number of attempts over the last few years, people like, you hate your phone, right?
00:20:55 ◼ ► And the problem is, most people don't hate their phones, or at least they don't only hate their phones.
00:21:03 ◼ ► They might hate part of what their phones do or mean to them, but need other parts, or love other parts, or both.
00:21:24 ◼ ► And there's a lot of modern life and modern utility in life that has been built with the assumption that everybody will have a smartphone,
00:21:33 ◼ ► So people who are like, I hate my phone, I'm just going to carry this, like, you know, this weird e-ink nothing phone or whatever.
00:21:39 ◼ ► It's like, yeah, those, no one actually buys those, and no one actually uses those as a gadget reviewers.
00:21:44 ◼ ► Because the actual experience of living life is everyone loves their phones and wants them constantly.
00:21:48 ◼ ► And so when people try to make a product saying, we need to make it so you don't use your phone as much,
00:22:04 ◼ ► And for the most part, if people want to use their phone less, or if you want to avoid things like, you know, social media toxicity and stuff,
00:22:14 ◼ ► that's generally a problem with specific apps that you use and participate in, not the phone itself.
00:22:21 ◼ ► Like, the ones who do say, oh, I want to use my phone less, or I'm spending too much time on my phone,
00:22:26 ◼ ► that can almost always be dramatically improved by things like, delete your account on Instagram and then delete the app.
00:22:41 ◼ ► If that's really what you want, if you want to get away from that, that is really what you want.
00:22:46 ◼ ► And then you have a phone, still, that can do things like, look up, you know, GPS directions to where you're going for your doctor or whatever.
00:22:56 ◼ ► You know, when I think about, like, the idea of Johnny Ive making some kind of Washington Monument that sits in your desk and listens to your AI.
00:23:13 ◼ ► Like, if my phone had this ability, and, you know, obviously, maybe we'll hear some stuff next week.
00:23:19 ◼ ► But, like, if my phone had the ability of things like the Humane Pen or Johnny Ive's, you know, Pyramid, like, whatever it is, can't the phone just have that?
00:23:28 ◼ ► And more, maybe a better question is, if the phone adds that, which I don't know what Apple's going to do, but Google sure is, if the phone adds that, does this product stop being relevant at all or necessary at all?
00:23:41 ◼ ► Like, can Apple or Google totally obviate this product in one product cycle by adding some features to their phones?
00:23:52 ◼ ► Yeah, the ways they would do it would be ways they probably won't do, or the ways they could do it, rather.
00:23:57 ◼ ► Anyway, also to say, like, so when I initially was excited about what Johnny Ive was saying, and I thought it might be a cool smartwatch, in part that's because I think the smartwatch has a better chance of success because people can swap out their watch pretty easily, but they're still wearing a watch and it's fine.
00:24:15 ◼ ► The more he talks, the more it seems like he wants to make some blob you put on your desk that you also have, along with your phone and your watch and your laptop and maybe an iPad.
00:24:37 ◼ ► It's starting to sound more like, kind of like the modern version of those, remember the Starphones?
00:24:42 ◼ ► I don't know, Casey might remember them, but whatever that company is that first made a kind of like starfish-shaped black plastic phone that you put in the middle of conference tables for work.
00:24:51 ◼ ► And I forget the name of the company, but they, and of course, everyone copied them after that or whatever.
00:24:55 ◼ ► Anyway, when you go to a meeting room, it's sitting in the middle of the table, and when you used to call people on regular landline phones, it's how you did business, but you could have meetings with multiple people.
00:25:02 ◼ ► And it was a speakerphone with mics and speakers facing in all directions, and the people on the other end had another one, and this was before FaceTime and before you could do video over the internet, before Google Meet, before Hangouts, before any of that stuff, these Starphone things exist.
00:25:17 ◼ ► Like, I guess everyone could be on their desk on their phone, or like you could put one phone on someone's desk on speakerphone, but here was a purpose-built device that was a hardware thing that it's like, it's not doing anything new, but boy, isn't it way better than all the alternatives using the same technology?
00:25:33 ◼ ► I hated those so, so much, because all it produced was a bunch of really distant, terrible conference calls.
00:25:53 ◼ ► Like I said, the early ones were bad, but they got better real fast, and eventually it was vastly superior.
00:26:02 ◼ ► Eventually, it was vastly superior to the alternatives, because it did have multiple microphones for noise canceling eventually, and multiple speakers pointing in multiple directions.
00:26:11 ◼ ► And it was just vastly preferable to people being at their individual desks or around an old-style speakerphone, where it was just a part of the handset thing.
00:26:23 ◼ ► Because I think of it with the egg thing of being like, can't your phone, can't you just put your phone down on the table, and can't it just listen to everything you're saying, and see everything that's on all your screens, and throw it all into ChatGPT, so that it has all the context, so that when you ask it a question, it has, it knows everything that went on during this meeting.
00:26:40 ◼ ► Especially since I would imagine Johnny Ive, like, his career and life pretty rapidly became being a very important person in a very important meeting with a small number of people.
00:26:50 ◼ ► And wouldn't it be nice if something was there, like, taking notes and processing it all, when you had a question, you could just say something?
00:27:03 ◼ ► But I see their disillusionment they're talking about, and how humanity deserves better, but I'm like, what role, Johnny, do you have specifically in making this product better for humanity?
00:27:19 ◼ ► So, I don't know, I don't know what he's going to be doing here other than making a really, really nice looking egg.
00:27:23 ◼ ► Yeah, I don't know, like, it's starting to feel a lot like one of those, like, you know, rich people problem devices.
00:27:31 ◼ ► It's like, I have too many phones, and therefore, and I have too many people trying to set up meetings with me, and I just want to be able to speak to a thing and say, book me a trip to Tahoe.
00:27:39 ◼ ► It's starting to sound like it might be more in that direction, and I really hope it's not, because that doesn't work in the world.
00:27:47 ◼ ► Yeah, but I agree that this seems like it's rich people solving rich people problems, but whatever.
00:27:54 ◼ ► But anyway, coming back to the article, I've acknowledged his own role in the products that have changed our relationship with technology.
00:28:00 ◼ ► Quote, while some of the less positive consequences were unintentional, I still feel responsibility, and the manifestation of that is a determination to try and be useful.
00:28:19 ◼ ► That's why I think it's just not such a slam dunk that, like, oh, there's this problem, disillusionment, and unintended consequences, and Johnny feels responsible.
00:28:27 ◼ ► And that's why we're working on a thing that is totally unknown, and we're not clear which direction it's headed.
00:28:37 ◼ ► I'm also not clear whether the thing you're doing will nudge us in further in the right direction or further away from it.
00:28:47 ◼ ► But hey, if they're going to do these interviews filled with vague and mysterious statements about regret and disillusionment with technology,
00:28:53 ◼ ► I really feel like I was looking for them to better connect, and that's why I'm doing this thing, which will help in these ways, and that's not there so far.
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00:31:08 ◼ ► And we have the crossover event that everyone's been waiting for, the combination of Vision Pro Corner and John Syracuse Corner.
00:31:29 ◼ ► I did the whole 30-minute thing at the Apple Store without getting motion sick, but yeah, my motion sickness is a problem for me, and so that is certainly a barrier to entry for any product like this, not just the Vision Pro.
00:31:38 ◼ ► If there's nothing for me to do with the Vision Pro next week, I'm mailing mine for the summer.
00:31:45 ◼ ► So anyway, so the reason this is at the Vision Pro and John Syracuse Corner is because the Bono film Stories of Surrender was released on Apple TV+.
00:32:00 ◼ ► It runs about 90 minutes long, which is far and away the longest immersive video that Apple's produced.
00:32:27 ◼ ► I wouldn't say I actively dislike them, but I would self-describe as someone who will listen and not be grumbly about it, but I never, ever, ever seek out U2, which is in contrast to John.
00:32:40 ◼ ► And jump in and interrupt whenever you're ready, but I would say this is or was at least your favorite band.
00:32:49 ◼ ► And that encompasses the fact that right now I'm probably more excited by, like, the new Churches album or something, but my all-time favorite band is U2.
00:33:07 ◼ ► I need to get, like, a PR, a brand marketing person to just follow Casey around, smacking the the out of his mouth.
00:33:20 ◼ ► I want to get it on the record on the show, kind of like the—what do the markings mean on the bootleg artwork?
00:33:36 ◼ ► I was about to say, every time I hear you say the iPhone, John, I'm going to correct you from now on.
00:33:44 ◼ ► I don't have to listen to that, but I feel like you as a member of the show should be on board with what the name is.
00:33:48 ◼ ► You're kind of like the people who—you're like the people who work at Apple who say, we believe iPhone is whatever.
00:34:06 ◼ ► And this hour-and-a-half-long thing was a just—well, it was a single-person stage show, I guess,
00:34:16 ◼ ► where it's him telling stories of his childhood that he thinks are relevant with occasional performances of Stripped Down,
00:34:32 ◼ ► I get that Bono is influential and whatever, but really, an hour-and-a-half about Listen to Me and My Life,
00:35:03 ◼ ► I really came in—I'm with as open a mind as I could, given my priors, but I was expecting to be like,
00:35:19 ◼ ► So before I talk about the differences, I'd like to hear your perspective on just the movie itself,
00:35:39 ◼ ► But first, I'd prefer, if you don't mind, to get a feel of what you thought of it in general.
00:35:52 ◼ ► because this is based on a one-man show, which is based on a book, which is based on the person,
00:36:02 ◼ ► When I first got into U2 when I was in middle school, I think I've said this story before,
00:36:17 ◼ ► And that's when I was in school, and it just continued on with the age of the internet.
00:36:31 ◼ ► I went in this hoping maybe, maybe this would be like stuff that I hadn't heard before,
00:36:49 ◼ ► It was aptly named, not just because of the tennis pun and the open era and all that other stuff,
00:36:54 ◼ ► but also because he opened up his life in a way that was extremely unflattering to himself.
00:37:08 ◼ ► Like, you know, only people who ever do that is like someone who you know, like, I don't know,
00:37:15 ◼ ► It's just become like a womanizing, drug-addicted, alcoholic, and flames out in the 80s,
00:37:24 ◼ ► Like, it's not a surprise that you were on drugs and womanizing, doing terrible things.
00:37:54 ◼ ► But when you're writing about yourself, you're like, maybe I'll leave out the worst things
00:38:02 ◼ ► If there's already a story about me doing this thing, maybe I'll tell that story because
00:38:09 ◼ ► But if you've never heard about this other thing that I did, I'm not going to mention it.
00:38:16 ◼ ► The amount of himself that he's willing to put out there is the same amount he's always
00:38:27 ◼ ► But he chose to say, I'm going to tell you about myself in this book and in this stage.
00:38:30 ◼ ► So and what he tells you is theatrically performed versions of stories and things that he's told
00:38:40 ◼ ► I was impressed with how well the old guy, after all he's gone through, I mean, he mentioned
00:38:51 ◼ ► Like in various times on tours, his voice has failed him because he, especially in the beginning,
00:39:29 ◼ ► Maybe if you've never heard all this stuff or didn't know anything about Bono, it would
00:39:37 ◼ ► So I feel like there's very little public information that I don't already know about this band.
00:39:42 ◼ ► And honestly, I did miss the other band members because they balance him out as he tries to
00:39:58 ◼ ► And so I feel like that was missing a little bit, even though he tried to bring it back
00:40:07 ◼ ► It's I don't think I would recommend this as somebody who's like, I don't know what you
00:40:12 ◼ ► Like I would maybe rack around even rattle and hum over this, which is a very narrow slice
00:40:27 ◼ ► But with that said, you and I, as I mentioned earlier, did not watch the same show movie.
00:40:37 ◼ ► It was very much like a portions filmed in IMAX movie where for a lot of it, I was in an all
00:40:55 ◼ ► And so I was able to get some press shots that Apple provided because I can't take a screenshot
00:41:04 ◼ ► They'll be in the show notes and I'm putting them in the chat room for the people that are
00:41:08 ◼ ► But there, as this performing is happening, both, you know, the verbal only performances
00:41:17 ◼ ► as well as the musical performances, a lot of times, especially the non-music parts were
00:41:26 ◼ ► But what was fascinating is, and I didn't realize this until I scrubbed through the 2D version
00:41:30 ◼ ► of the program, there were illustrations and like adornments and annotations that I think
00:41:39 ◼ ► But I spent a lot of time looking at the writing and going, is that a handwriting font?
00:41:47 ◼ ► I also, I read somewhere, which I can't place, so I might be lying to myself and to you, but
00:41:52 ◼ ► I thought I read that he used Procreate to draw it all so they could like replay the brush
00:41:59 ◼ ► So anyways, but what was interesting was, so a lot of the show, he, because it's just him,
00:42:05 ◼ ► he represents other people that he's speaking about and allegedly speaking with as just
00:42:11 ◼ ► So when he talks about the other members of U2, he has three chairs that are on stage, one
00:42:26 ◼ ► And there was actually a joke in the show about Pavarotti not remembering the bass player's
00:42:32 ◼ ► But there was a lot of times when he was describing being in a room in a pub in Dublin, I believe,
00:42:41 ◼ ► And he has this like kind of cushy chair instead of just like a wooden chair next to him.
00:42:49 ◼ ► And so he'll lean over and look to the left-hand side of the frame, which is his right, and
00:42:57 ◼ ► And then he'll lean there, you know, look the opposite direction to mimic or explain what
00:43:15 ◼ ► There was, like, I'm looking at these screenshots and some of these things I recognize from
00:43:26 ◼ ► So when he was talking to his dad, who he had like three different versions of dad, daddy,
00:43:33 ◼ ► But anyways, when he was talking to his dad, there was an illustrated version of his dad
00:43:46 ◼ ► And behind him was an illustrated bar with an illustrated barkeep, like working on, like
00:44:05 ◼ ► And the other thing that I thought was fascinating was on in a way that I can't say I've ever
00:44:12 ◼ ► experienced before the transitions between immersive and non-immersive were, I wouldn't
00:44:24 ◼ ► And there were times that I could tell, like in the example, it was the middle example.
00:44:35 ◼ ► And I believe you saw this illustration in the 2D version, if I'm not mistaken, but it's
00:44:46 ◼ ► as you're watching the movie, you can see the border of the 2D screen, if you will, that
00:44:54 ◼ ► And then, you know, all the illustration is around that, but then that eventually fades
00:45:04 ◼ ► And I was so blown away by how well they handled this, whether or not one likes these adornments
00:45:14 ◼ ► I thought I, I mean, I liked it, but if, if one didn't, if you didn't, John or whoever's
00:45:20 ◼ ► But I thought it was incredibly fascinating and incredibly cool the way in which they approach
00:45:32 ◼ ► And, you know, here I'm, I'm hearing, um, some of these incredibly popular U2 songs whose
00:45:41 ◼ ► know, some of these songs I'm actually getting like, yeah, as I'm watching this, I'm actually
00:45:46 ◼ ► Like I know this song, this is an incredibly good song, um, in the name of love, which probably
00:45:57 ◼ ► That's something different entirely, but I actually got like a little choked up by this and that's
00:46:05 ◼ ► I don't know if I was just having a very vulnerable moment when I watched it, but again, I was
00:46:09 ◼ ► really, really impressed because here it was, I went into this thinking, I don't care what
00:46:23 ◼ ► And even though it was pretentious and kind of self-centered and whatever, I actually really,
00:46:28 ◼ ► And again, as a technical experience, if you happen to have a vision pro, or if you have
00:46:33 ◼ ► the time to go to the Apple store, I presume that what you watch a few minutes of it, I suggest
00:46:36 ◼ ► Marco, I know you're kind of allergic to the vision pro at this point, but if you happen to
00:46:48 ◼ ► If you've never heard these stories before it is, he does have a moving story and the story
00:46:52 ◼ ► of the band and the fact that they're still together and his, you know, his dad dying and
00:46:58 ◼ ► Well, just because I've heard it before, it doesn't mean it's not worth hearing for the
00:47:02 ◼ ► I know I've said it two times or three times already, but as an example of how to do immersive,
00:47:20 ◼ ► And so I got an email from them, like a marketing email, and I already long since deleted it,
00:47:26 ◼ ► but it was like, Hey, just FYI, we're going to, you know, ask you to opt out of, or not even
00:47:31 ◼ ► ask you, we're going to offer to you to opt out of some stuff if you're interested in that.
00:47:38 ◼ ► And so if you go to plex.tv slash vendors hyphen us, or at least that's where I get redirected
00:47:54 ◼ ► And they do, uh, once you're logged in, they do have an, I think like an all no button at
00:48:03 ◼ ► Um, this is probably not something that any of the listeners of the show would be interested
00:48:11 ◼ ► Uh, on the flip side of this though, my understanding from those in the EU, after I had posted about
00:48:17 ◼ ► this on Mastodon is pretty much everyone in the EU said, or I'm already opt out, opted out,
00:48:28 ◼ ► And I assumed it's because we've actually talked about this before and I opted out at that time,
00:48:38 ◼ ► So either I had forgotten to do it, which tracks when it originally happened or, uh, or maybe
00:48:44 ◼ ► not, but either way, uh, um, maybe I'm attributing to the EU something that wasn't the EU
00:48:54 ◼ ► If you don't mind, uh, I probably should not be shining a light on a bug in my own app,
00:49:00 ◼ ► Uh, sometime I only started getting reports about this in the last couple of months, but
00:49:04 ◼ ► sometimes semi-recently, I noticed that people were starting to report that if you go to,
00:49:12 ◼ ► um, a particularly long, like cast list, be that, or, or, or particularly long, um, uh,
00:49:23 ◼ ► If you do this in call sheet and you, and you scroll to the bottom, especially if you do it
00:49:27 ◼ ► super duper duper quickly and then scroll back and go kind of go back and forth a couple of
00:49:31 ◼ ► times, what can end up happening is you can get a bunch of empty cells in the table view
00:49:38 ◼ ► And so instead of seeing the entire filmography or the entire cast list, you just see blanks.
00:49:46 ◼ ► This is a Swift UI list behind the scenes, and maybe I'm bending it to the point of breaking
00:50:06 ◼ ► And I probably will do that after WWDC if I, um, if I don't get any good answers, but I'm
00:50:37 ◼ ► But if you happen to be in on the Swift UI team at Apple, which is probably nobody, but
00:50:43 ◼ ► Uh, I will put a link in the show notes to, uh, my toot about this and to, uh, the bug that
00:50:51 ◼ ► Now I will say, if you look at the toots, uh, that I posted on Mastodon, what you think
00:50:55 ◼ ► I'm complaining about is a bunch of log messages, which is kind of true, but that I actually
00:51:02 ◼ ► Uh, in the logs, it says list failed to visit cell content, returning an empty cell, uh, blah,
00:51:11 ◼ ► Uh, but what I'm actually complaining about, like, I don't really care that this stuff is
00:51:57 ◼ ► Well, one way or another, uh, please, if you're an Apple person, I beg of you, uh, do what
00:52:07 ◼ ► I will be happy to sing your praises and, or send you accidental, not the, but accidental
00:52:23 ◼ ► Cause like I, you know, the lower and mid-level people at Apple seems like it's just fine.
00:52:35 ◼ ► Um, but yeah, if there's anything you could do, I would, I would really, really appreciate
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00:54:35 ◼ ► WWDC time as we sit here on Wednesday night, the 4th of June, WWDC keynote is Monday coming
00:54:54 ◼ ► Uh, I had booked a bunch of refundable travel in this past weekend, uh, refunded myself, uh,
00:55:00 ◼ ► because it was clear that I was not getting an invite this year, uh, take it out whatever
00:55:03 ◼ ► you will, I don't know, but, um, let's talk about hopes and predictions and it starts, I
00:55:09 ◼ ► think perhaps with this animation and tweet that was put up by Greg Joswiak, uh, earlier
00:55:15 ◼ ► today, where it has WWDC, DC 25 with an Apple logo, a rainbow, like the rainbow thing and the
00:55:28 ◼ ► Oh, there was also the thing from their webpage where it says WWDC 25 and they added this slogan.
00:55:51 ◼ ► The prediction is, as we've discussed in the past, Apple's redesigning all their operating systems
00:56:05 ◼ ► Um, and so there's artwork and these animations that like, it's basically like looks, I would
00:56:13 ◼ ► Would you say like frosted glass stuff that as Casey pointed out, reflects the colorful
00:56:40 ◼ ► big redesigns are, are dangerous and tricky, but like there's lots of things about the current
00:56:44 ◼ ► Mac OS in particular, the current Mac OS UI, both the look and the design of it that I don't
00:56:49 ◼ ► And so here now a week before WWDC is my last chance to have the hope that, Hey, maybe those
00:56:56 ◼ ► things that I don't like will be made better because, you know, I, I didn't think the whole
00:57:01 ◼ ► OS needs to be redesigned or anything, but you know, if you're going to redesign everything,
00:57:10 ◼ ► The fear is that all the ones that I like just fine will get worse, but we'll see how it goes.
00:57:16 ◼ ► So, you know, and, and, and as I said, when we first discussed this, even if it's not to
00:57:21 ◼ ► my personal liking some, you know, if it just looks cool, you get a little bit of a high
00:57:27 ◼ ► out of that of like, cause a lot of things that Apple's put out, maybe they end up being
00:57:40 ◼ ► And I'm trying to be optimistic about it because it's not like I'm saying everything's perfect
00:57:48 ◼ ► I didn't think necessarily, this was the year to change all the OSs, but it's what they're
00:58:03 ◼ ► And of course, talented artists and designers can not just make predictions, but they do mock-ups
00:58:07 ◼ ► essentially based on like the artwork that we see from Apple and everything saying, this
00:58:17 ◼ ► Like I think that flat design has gone too far and we need more dimensionality and physicality.
00:58:23 ◼ ► I think, uh, Sebastian made a couple, I think it was, uh, made a couple of good points about
00:58:27 ◼ ► like one of the things that Apple can do that its competitors would find more difficult to
00:58:32 ◼ ► copy is make a look that requires like tremendous, like precision and consistency because Apple
00:58:42 ◼ ► They can, uh, of all these different platforms, they can very precisely ensure that this particular
00:58:47 ◼ ► effect, which anybody could do, but it would be like other designers and other platforms
00:58:51 ◼ ► like Android would say, well, we would never do that because it would just be such a pain
00:58:54 ◼ ► to try to make that look consistent everywhere and not be ugly across the vast range of Android
00:58:59 ◼ ► But Apple can do that because they are targeting a smaller amount of hardware and they control
00:59:05 ◼ ► And so one of their potential advantages is do things that their competitors would essentially
00:59:12 ◼ ► Now that doesn't mean Apple's ideas are going to be good ideas or that people will like them
00:59:16 ◼ ► or that they will improve things, but it is an advantage that they can, they can tackle
00:59:24 ◼ ► So I hope they take advantage of that and do make something that looks cooler than we expect
00:59:32 ◼ ► Honestly, I forget when that was, cause I'm not a windows expert, but there was a time when
00:59:36 ◼ ► Microsoft many years ago was super heavily into all the windows are going to be clear and
00:59:40 ◼ ► glassy because that's what Apple did with Aqua kind of, but we're going to take that to
01:00:25 ◼ ► Um, I think, you know, when you look at, you know, look at the last couple of years of Apple's
01:00:37 ◼ ► you have a huge, you know, AI revolution going on in, you know, the rest of the tech business.
01:00:49 ◼ ► You have them launching a new platform in vision pro that seems to have gone nowhere, but
01:00:56 ◼ ► Do I trust them in that state to have delivered a sweeping redesign of all of their platforms
01:01:08 ◼ ► I, it seems like that's a lot to ask of a company to do that now in this environment, like on that
01:01:25 ◼ ► disrupted everything, you know, kind of unwisely or at a bad time or as a distraction, you know,
01:01:35 ◼ ► And I'm sure they leaned into it a little bit, but like, I don't know if I trust any company
01:01:46 ◼ ► know, somebody else, but like, I also don't know if I trust Apple to do that and today's
01:01:50 ◼ ► And I also, I'm not sure I trust today's Apple, you know, led by the Allen Dye design team
01:01:55 ◼ ► I don't think I trust them to make great decisions with the UI, like design wise either, because
01:02:09 ◼ ► This, what we have been using is their designs, the system settings app on the Mac, which is
01:02:23 ◼ ► So I want to be excited because a UI redesign, if done well, can be really invigorating to the
01:02:32 ◼ ► It can be really cool, but I don't know that I trust those people at this time to have executed
01:02:41 ◼ ► The UI redesign is actually what I am most excited about, even though that one single thing will
01:02:53 ◼ ► Like, you know, if it's that, if it's that significant of a redesign, which we don't know
01:02:56 ◼ ► how significant it is, but if it's that significant of a redesign, it will be the only thing we can
01:03:05 ◼ ► And also, that raises the question of like, what is Apple's position with developers right now?
01:03:17 ◼ ► Now, there's always going to be, you know, small developers who are big Apple fans who will do
01:03:24 ◼ ► But then there's also, you know, medium and big companies where it's like Apple's relationship with
01:03:38 ◼ ► I wouldn't, I don't think anyone's going to be jumping at it from medium size and large companies.
01:03:57 ◼ ► Because if it doesn't pay off big, it's going to be a huge distraction and pain in the butt for
01:04:12 ◼ ► With regard to the redesign, I think I feel similarly to Marco, but far more extremely.
01:04:20 ◼ ► And so far as if you ask me as a user, I'm really excited because I think that, you know,
01:04:27 ◼ ► if you take Sebastian's mock-ups, which obviously, who knows if they're going to be right or not,
01:04:48 ◼ ► So anyways, when I put on the Vision Pro, and obviously we were just talking about it a
01:04:52 ◼ ► few minutes ago, whatever my or our qualms about whether that thing should exist, whether
01:04:58 ◼ ► it has achieved the goals it set out to do, putting all that aside for a second, the hardware,
01:05:21 ◼ ► You know, a lot of these same affordances that we're allegedly going to be getting on the
01:05:29 ◼ ► And granted, it's different because Vision OS has a real strong concept of depth that no
01:05:46 ◼ ► And I get that there's not a lot that I feel like I can get done efficiently in Vision OS,
01:05:59 ◼ ► And I looked, you know, I opened up the Invites app again for the first time since we talked
01:06:22 ◼ ► But nevertheless, I think it could be a really fun and interesting time to be an Apple fan.
01:06:29 ◼ ► And goodness knows, I and I think the three of us would love to have fun nitpicking icons
01:06:56 ◼ ► If you're not a developer, you're like, you've made things so they look correct with the current
01:07:00 ◼ ► And you may think, well, if Apple will just make those same widgets look different, the
01:07:08 ◼ ► And you're going to have to revisit every screen and say, does this still look okay in the
01:07:13 ◼ ► Or do I have to branch and say, well, when you're on this OS or newer, adjust the metric so it
01:07:19 ◼ ► But if they don't, if this ends up not being, you know, if the metrics don't change that much,
01:07:25 ◼ ► if the, if the widgets, if the particular options we choose for each controls don't radically
01:07:34 ◼ ► And same deal for big developers, like Marco said, that aren't really going to update their
01:07:39 ◼ ► If we can at least persuade them to build against the new SDK, will they just say like, ah, well,
01:07:52 ◼ ► Unfortunately, especially on the phone, if the rumors are to be believed in, uh, Sebastian
01:07:57 ◼ ► also like essentially incorporated those rumors, like for example, uh, whatever they called
01:08:06 ◼ ► about this in past shows floating again as, so it's not stuck against the bottom of the
01:08:20 ◼ ► It changes the height of the available content, but you have to draw the content that's going
01:08:26 ◼ ► But that's super annoying and not great in an example of a, of a change that will require
01:08:48 ◼ ► And that change didn't require Mac developers to do much of anything except for, like I
01:08:55 ◼ ► said, look at their, how does my dialogue that I carefully designed for the old layout look
01:09:16 ◼ ► and in a clever way, the amount of actual work required to update to it shouldn't be that
01:09:21 ◼ ► Now, the real thing they have to deal with is hopefully people like this, like forget about
01:09:30 ◼ ► The whole rest of the world who's not Apple or developers, which is pretty much everybody.
01:09:41 ◼ ► get like, in that way, like just changing it is an important task because like they went
01:09:53 ◼ ► So now all the industry looks very similar to that Apple going off in a different direction,
01:09:58 ◼ ► which is, you know, seemingly based on their concept art is actually kind of a back to the
01:10:09 ◼ ► What it will do, I think, is make the iPhone look different than Android, make it look more
01:10:16 ◼ ► Even though Android's going, not that they went into frosted glass, but they're, they're
01:10:24 ◼ ► Differentiation and hopefully differentiation in a way where we won't be talking about three
01:10:31 ◼ ► is refusing to upgrade to iOS 26, just like they refused to upgrade to iOS 18 because the
01:10:48 ◼ ► So in that capacity, in differentiation and saying Android and Apple have been too similar to each
01:11:05 ◼ ► And now you've been able to tell, oh, I know that's an iPhone because iPhone looks like
01:11:30 ◼ ► Now, if this looks as great as I hope it does, and I think it might, then it won't feel as
01:11:37 ◼ ► I think it was Marco that said a minute ago, uh, that, you know, this is asking a lot at
01:11:41 ◼ ► this particular time with the vibes, the way they are right now, but hopefully it won't
01:11:53 ◼ ► And John, your, your, uh, latest stuff is Swift UI and certainly call sheets pretty much
01:12:18 ◼ ► And just, if you're new to this, if you're new to caring about Apple as much as the three
01:12:22 ◼ ► of us do just remember that, or let me inform you that back when iOS seven landed, the betas
01:12:34 ◼ ► What's the little thing on your desk with the line of balls and about the balls bounce back
01:12:52 ◼ ► Um, and so anyway, so they way over swung and then the other pendulum, if you will, came
01:13:01 ◼ ► And I mean, whether or not you like the flat look, I do think that where they landed was a
01:13:05 ◼ ► far better place than where they started because where they started was rough and that's okay.
01:13:26 ◼ ► I think, I mean, first of all, for the betas, I think this is one that I'm going to install
01:13:37 ◼ ► Um, but also like one of the, one thing that also happens a lot with a redesign is developers
01:13:59 ◼ ► And if it is merely a re-skinning and everything, you know, basically works the same way, that's
01:14:06 ◼ ► Basically, we're never that lucky because, you know, frankly, that would be kind of boring.
01:14:11 ◼ ► Um, you know, whenever Apple does design tweaks, also like new behaviors are introduced, new
01:14:22 ◼ ► Um, you know, navigation mechanics, like there's going to be a lot that we need to adopt.
01:14:27 ◼ ► Beta one for me is like, I need to start learning this new design from whatever Apple has done
01:14:34 ◼ ► Um, so it's going to be, it's going to be a buggy summer with terrible battery life, but
01:14:44 ◼ ► If we have that, you know, that level of redesign, which maybe we do, maybe we don't, maybe it's
01:14:48 ◼ ► somewhere in the middle, but with iOS seven, like it was pretty difficult to adopt the new
01:14:59 ◼ ► It was a lot easier to make your app require iOS seven and launch it, you know, pretty soon
01:15:14 ◼ ► Um, but if this is really a sweeping redesign, there's going to be a lot of apps that want
01:15:30 ◼ ► There will be a big compatibility break if this, if this happens the way that it's rumored
01:15:36 ◼ ► A lot of apps will realize, Oh no, we, we need to adopt the new design in order to stay,
01:15:42 ◼ ► you know, trendy and relevant to our customers and to avoid one-star reviews for not updating.
01:15:49 ◼ ► So I think there's going to be a lot of, you know, aggressive requirements where you require
01:16:03 ◼ ► And then on launch, like if you're running iOS 26, launch this entirely separate storyboard
01:16:11 ◼ ► Um, so we're going to see a lot, a lot of like hoop jumping by developers and apps, um, to
01:16:17 ◼ ► recognize the fact that like, we're going to have to basically require this right up front.
01:16:21 ◼ ► So to bridge the gap between this and what I think Marker was going to say earlier about
01:16:30 ◼ ► I think when we was originally rumored, uh, one of the things I said about it was like,
01:16:37 ◼ ► AI thing that you're not doing well on that you're behind, uh, is now the time you really
01:16:50 ◼ ► delay this for a year or two until you get your feet under you with the AI thing or whatever.
01:16:56 ◼ ► But on the other hand, all of the rumors have been leaning towards, Hey, this is not going
01:17:01 ◼ ► to be the year that Apple comes out and says, yeah, you remember all that Apple intelligence
01:17:06 ◼ ► But this year we're coming roaring back and we got all these great Apple intelligence features
01:17:11 ◼ ► And we're going to ship them and they're available today and you can try them out yourself.
01:17:18 ◼ ► So if you're going to do like, let's say in sports analogy, this is not sports specific,
01:17:23 ◼ ► Marco, a rebuilding year, like this is kind of a rebuilding year for Apple and AI, according
01:17:33 ◼ ► It seems like they're not ready with this blockbuster bucket of amazing AI powered things
01:17:53 ◼ ► Redesign like, you know, like maybe maybe like in some I used to think the timing was terrible
01:18:05 ◼ ► Like, I feel like the pressure is on them less to be like, you've got to catch up to AI because
01:18:28 ◼ ► Unfortunately, including Apple while we wait for them to to to to do that rebuilding, you
01:18:42 ◼ ► They did a bunch of shuffling or whatever, but that all that stuff they did is not going
01:18:52 ◼ ► And the rumor is that Marco will finally get his wish and be able to use models that come
01:19:00 ◼ ► I'm very much looking forward to, you know, the rumors are strong enough around that now
01:19:23 ◼ ► What are we allowed to do in background refresh and processing tasks like stuff like that?
01:19:30 ◼ ► And I think, you know, for in terms of like how do what we expect for Apple and their AI
01:19:38 ◼ ► story next week, I think, first of all, there will be no apology, no negativity whatsoever
01:19:49 ◼ ► They will probably dodge mentioning them at all, or they'll mention them only in a positive
01:19:53 ◼ ► They'll talk about like, here's all the cool stuff people are doing with image playground
01:20:03 ◼ ► It's like, please, Apple, show us what cool things people are doing with your terrible image
01:20:10 ◼ ► I feel like what they're going to say is we're still working real hard on these things and
01:20:17 ◼ ► No, I bet there's going to be just like papering over like, you know, we've always been at
01:20:29 ◼ ► I expect that we will see, you know, they'll talk about a lot of like kind of incremental
01:20:38 ◼ ► I don't expect to see like major deep progress on them, but you know, an incremental year
01:20:46 ◼ ► I expect one possibility that they might use to kind of, you know, try to paper over the,
01:20:53 ◼ ► If you recall a few years back, they started in it for like one or two years, they started
01:21:00 ◼ ► calling machine learning features, Siri, like even things that were not like invoking the
01:21:06 ◼ ► They were using the Siri as a brand name to be like, you know, Siri, organize your photos
01:21:12 ◼ ► I think we might see that kind of thing for like Apple intelligence or AI being used as
01:21:23 ◼ ► And it's not actually like Apple intelligence or LLM type models or things that it's actually
01:21:36 ◼ ► So I'm guessing there's going to be a lot of that kind of like, you know, papering over
01:21:40 ◼ ► a lot of, you know, let's polish up these, you know, kind of small things into something
01:21:46 ◼ ► that sounds like a big overall picture because we don't really have anything bigger to show
01:21:53 ◼ ► I'm expecting it will be like when they do that, it will not be as long a segment as the
01:21:58 ◼ ► I think they're going to lean heavily on it, honestly, because it's like, this is what the
01:22:04 ◼ ► This is what, you know, the investors and the markets and all the pressures are on them
01:22:13 ◼ ► And so I think they're going to try to shine up the term that they have as best as they
01:22:16 ◼ ► can and just, and just act like this is look, this, look at this, all this amazing stuff
01:22:23 ◼ ► Like we've seen areas like this before where they're like a little behind in something.
01:22:26 ◼ ► And so they kind of just, you know, they, they really, you know, put a big grin on and,
01:22:35 ◼ ► So I can see them talking about incremental progress and the features that they've shipped
01:22:38 ◼ ► If they have the Google deal to announce like Gemini being incorporated, I think that will
01:22:43 ◼ ► And that'll actually be something that like sort of people are interested in seeing because
01:22:47 ◼ ► the chat GPT integration for all its problems has been a little bit of an escape hatch for
01:22:52 ◼ ► people to not deal with Apple's progress, but instead to be able to use one of the industry
01:22:56 ◼ ► leaders and Apple's been hinting at the Gemini deal since, since like WWE, since the day of
01:23:03 ◼ ► WWDC 2024, like even that day they were saying, and you know, it might be looking at other people
01:23:16 ◼ ► Now would be the time if you finally can strike a deal with Google on the Gemini thing, having
01:23:21 ◼ ► not just one choice for a thing that Siri delegates do when it can't do the thing, but two choices
01:23:25 ◼ ► would be great because I think that I've been playing with the latest Gemini a little bit
01:23:32 ◼ ► And that would also get some heat off them a little bit because it's kind of like while
01:23:36 ◼ ► we fail to do things ourselves, we should start fulfilling the promise that we were trying
01:23:43 ◼ ► to say last time and it's like, and for the things that we can't do, we'll work with third
01:23:55 ◼ ► of a platform thing because there's this place where a thing can plug in and they, you can
01:23:59 ◼ ► plug in chat GPT or when you are, maybe you can do them both or Gemini or you can do both
01:24:04 ◼ ► So I think that could absorb a lot of time that second, but honestly, I don't expect their
01:24:14 ◼ ► I just, I put it this way, I think they shouldn't spend a long time dwelling on whatever they
01:24:38 ◼ ► You know, the problem with the iOS 18 chat GPT integration is not that we need another model
01:24:46 ◼ ► The problem is the integration is very limited and sucks and Siri is not good at delegating
01:24:57 ◼ ► The iPhone is not letting chat GPT do enough and is not, you know, calling upon it enough
01:25:04 ◼ ► So if the Gemini deal is just plugging in Gemini where chat GPT is now, that's not enough.
01:25:12 ◼ ► Hopefully, what Apple has done is some kind of better and or deeper integration that people
01:25:25 ◼ ► Like right now, you can use the chat GPT integration with Siri, you know, and it's, I mentioned, you
01:25:31 ◼ ► I can, you know, ask, I ask, hey, you know, Dingus, ask chat GPT this question that I know
01:25:41 ◼ ► using the phone is just open the chat GPT app because it's just way better in every possible
01:25:46 ◼ ► way because the integration from Apple is so limited and kind of bizarre in certain ways.
01:25:51 ◼ ► Yeah, that could be an example of the integration, not so much as like a thing that Siri delegates
01:26:00 ◼ ► I'm not sure that what form that would take, but maybe some kind of privacy preserving context
01:26:05 ◼ ► awareness that Apple was touting for Apple intelligence to basically like Apple's whole
01:26:09 ◼ ► deal is we have tons of information about you on your phone and we're going to feed that
01:26:14 ◼ ► into our AI thing so it can answer intelligence questions without taking all your private
01:26:21 ◼ ► It would be interesting and really cool if they said, and now we have a way for third party
01:26:31 ◼ ► is have access to all your local information in a privacy preserving way with these brand
01:26:41 ◼ ► That hasn't even been rumored, but that's an example of an integration that doesn't require
01:26:53 ◼ ► It's better, like maybe not better than it is on Android, but that is well integrated with
01:26:59 ◼ ► the OS that it has more access than it currently does because that's kind of the problem.
01:27:13 ◼ ► Make sure you use the memory feature to let it know about you and what kind of app you're
01:27:20 ◼ ► into the app so that when you go and ask it a question, it kind of like has a head start
01:27:26 ◼ ► You should already know everything about me, but that is scary from a privacy perspective.
01:27:39 ◼ ► But I really think the the big redesign, because remember, the redesign will probably have like
01:27:55 ◼ ► But like it's I feel like the redesign is going to absorb a lot of time and a lot of screen
01:28:01 ◼ ► One of the reasons why I like your idea of like making just APIs for the Gemini and ChatGPT
01:28:23 ◼ ► These companies are just churning out update after update, massive new product features like
01:28:35 ◼ ► And for Apple to only be able to update its integration, you know, once a year is not good
01:28:49 ◼ ► So if they make it API based, the apps can update whenever they can, whenever they feel
01:28:56 ◼ ► But, you know, whenever they can feel like it, they can update and keep adding stuff over
01:29:05 ◼ ► And because at this point, like issuing anything about AI, issuing it once a year is just death
01:29:21 ◼ ► I mean, look, Apple's full of very smart people with, you know, they're in the same tech business
01:29:28 ◼ ► They can see hopefully, hopefully some of them see the writing on the wall here of like,
01:29:37 ◼ ► And they have an amazing set of platforms that people like, for the most part, developing
01:29:47 ◼ ► They can enable these apps to operate on their platform if they, you know, just give a little
01:29:53 ◼ ► like give some integration APIs, like just give a little bit and they can be an amazing
01:30:10 ◼ ► The basically Swift Assist, which never appeared on the Anthropic deal, basically like Xcode.
01:30:19 ◼ ► Last year, they touted a bunch of features that would help you code better using LLMs that
01:30:30 ◼ ► In the year since then, boy, have there been a lot of tools and IDEs and integration with
01:30:38 ◼ ► I know they have that one model that they have in there for like better completion, which
01:30:42 ◼ ► But it's a far cry from what is available at the cutting edge of help me write code with
01:30:49 ◼ ► And so that would be another good AI thing that would actually make that segment actually
01:30:59 ◼ ► I know they're essentially partnering with Anthropic, but whatever you got to do, like, you know,
01:31:15 ◼ ► But the point is typing in Xcode should have the access to better LLM based code features.
01:31:27 ◼ ► Like we're not saying just like, oh, I just go to Xcode and I talk to it and writes the
01:31:40 ◼ ► And I think that would go in the Apple intelligence section of the talk, even though it is.
01:31:56 ◼ ► Like, why are we not expecting them to like, I know because they fell on their face last
01:32:02 ◼ ► But I'm saying like, you know, why are we why are we instantly lowering our expectations?
01:32:07 ◼ ► Like, well, we know Apple won't be the best at this, but we hope they do something like
01:32:16 ◼ ► Well, we're lowering our expectations because we don't think they're going to have it ready.
01:32:27 ◼ ► But like, yeah, I have I have zero faith in Apple's AI efforts being remotely competitive
01:32:48 ◼ ► I think they just rearranged their senior leadership around this because they want to do better.
01:33:05 ◼ ► So, OK, let me go through a little bit of negativity and then we'll get back to positivity because I just I want to say expectations accordingly.
01:33:12 ◼ ► I don't think there will be any acknowledgement of the relationship with developers, courts, ongoing lawsuits, regulations around the world.
01:33:33 ◼ ► But like, you know, what I expect is like, you know, they will project pure confidence.
01:33:39 ◼ ► They will have some puffy videos showing how amazing the app store is for customers and how it has enabled all these diverse groups of developers to succeed and do amazing things and save people's lives and cure cancer.
01:33:53 ◼ ► We're going to see a video of all these happy developers that just have been enabled by Apple's generosity.
01:33:59 ◼ ► Thank God they let us develop on this platform because we are saving children with our work on this platform.
01:34:16 ◼ ► We're not going to see any major opening up of things that were previously locked down.
01:34:27 ◼ ► A lot of people, like, on Masteron and stuff have been asking, like, oh, do we expect that?
01:34:37 ◼ ► Like, we will see a bunch of puffy videos about how the way they have been doing things and have always been doing things is awesome.
01:34:48 ◼ ► And it's going to be marketing to the world and to regulators and courts saying, look at how great the app store is.
01:34:58 ◼ ► What this event will be is showing off what Apple is doing in the tracks they were already on.
01:35:07 ◼ ► You know, this is not going to be, you know, giving developers everything they want with policies.
01:35:13 ◼ ► This is going to be giving us a really cool, hopefully, UI redesign for the platforms that will set the tone of how we do the rest of our work this summer, fall, and probably winter.
01:35:30 ◼ ► I'm hoping to see what tends to make the most, like, day-to-day life improvements for developers is kind of the less flashy but, like, maybe more important progress that happens every year.
01:35:43 ◼ ► Stuff like, you know, SwiftUI, having, you know, certain limitations lifted or having new capabilities or cool…
01:35:51 ◼ ► Like, you know, having, you know, maybe, like, a SwiftUI web view has been rumored for a while.
01:36:04 ◼ ► Like, you know, so much of UIKit and Foundation and, you know, all these APIs that have been built over time, so much of those are not quite playing nicely with modern Swift in a couple of ways.
01:36:21 ◼ ► Async APIs make so many types of things so much easier to write these days and nothing shows off how great async is than when you run into something that's not async that you have to, like, convert in or, you know, work around with some kind of callback or delegate and it's, you know, cumbersome and buggy.
01:36:47 ◼ ► Yeah, like, just to give an even more boring example that I think has come up in your past conversations about Overcast, like, the multiple selection support in LIS.
01:36:57 ◼ ► Like, no one's going to, it's going to be in one obscure, it's not going to be in the keynote, probably.
01:37:00 ◼ ► Maybe it'll be on a bento box thing, but it's, like, that one thing, like, that's one of the beautiful things about WWDC is you watch some random obscure session somewhere and they get to a slide and you're like, oh, my God, I wanted that for five years.
01:37:12 ◼ ► And it will make a material difference to your app in a way that is, that only you as the developer need to know about.
01:37:30 ◼ ► Like, that's what I look forward to every year is, like, nowadays it's a little bit more complicated because of the weird way, like, you know, modifiers are added to SwiftUI.
01:37:38 ◼ ► But I used to love, like, going through the API diffs on that first day and just seeing, like, oh, my God, they added this method to UITableView.
01:37:49 ◼ ► Oh, this one little paper cut that I've had because of some limitation in the API, that's now lifted.
01:37:59 ◼ ► Like, that's the kind of stuff that I really benefit from every single day for the whole year.
01:38:05 ◼ ► Like, you know, when you have some kind of flashy new API, that can be great or you might not have a use for it.
01:38:13 ◼ ► You know, but stuff like making more of the foundation APIs, like, making more of them async and making their callbacks sendable and all this stuff.
01:38:26 ◼ ► And by far, my favorite part of the new software releases every year is that kind of stuff.
01:38:32 ◼ ► And it's usually that kind of stuff that makes me want to require the new OS for my app at some point in the future.
01:38:49 ◼ ► So, you know, in other versions or other areas of the API, I expect to see some improvements here and there.
01:38:56 ◼ ► You know, I expect, like, they're probably going to keep pushing app intents pretty heavily because that's how the Apple intelligence features that were delayed might come soon.
01:39:10 ◼ ► Hopefully, like, maybe stuff like the widget system, you know, gets a few little improvements here and there.
01:39:27 ◼ ► What looks to be standby widgets showing up in CarPlay Ultra, that is also apparent, looks like just widgets to me.
01:39:34 ◼ ► CarPlay itself, like, I spent all morning this morning trying to work around a CarPlay animation bug that's just in Apple's frameworks.
01:39:42 ◼ ► And CarPlay, like, developers have very little ability to do much of anything in CarPlay.
01:39:48 ◼ ► Like, it's a very limited API for various, like, safety and regulatory reasons for what's displayed in cars.
01:39:55 ◼ ► So, when you run into, like, an animation bug in Apple's frameworks, like, well, I kind of can't work around this one.
01:40:07 ◼ ► Well, am I still going to be using this, you know, ancient API that I'm using to write CarPlay apps?
01:40:19 ◼ ► But, like, I kind of felt when I was writing on my CarPlay code over in the last couple weeks, I'm like, should I really be doing this right now?
01:40:31 ◼ ► Because whatever the company does with its politics and its relationship with developers, like, that's its own thing off to the side.
01:40:37 ◼ ► I try to keep it off to the side for most of my life because I don't want to, you know, keep focusing too much on stuff I can't control.
01:40:43 ◼ ► What I get out of bed for is, well, first of all, my old dog is not sleeping in as well anymore as he used to.
01:40:52 ◼ ► And Apple tends to deliver a lot of good improvements every year that are less flashy than the big headlining features usually.
01:41:01 ◼ ► But that enable me to make better software or that enable my software to be a little bit nicer or do a few more things than I could do before or make my life a little bit easier as the author of that software.
01:41:37 ◼ ► And speaking of looking forward to things, time was, it doesn't seem that long ago, where one of the most important rumors slash potentially leak things that would happen before WWDC was setting expectations for hardware announcements.
01:41:54 ◼ ► So much so that when, when it was a year where it was like, somehow it would be made clear by Apple through a strategic leak to the Wall Street Journal or something that you shouldn't expect any hardware just so people didn't get disappointed.
01:42:04 ◼ ► But these days it seemed like the expectation of any hardware WWDC is so remote that Apple doesn't even need to set the expectation.
01:42:20 ◼ ► I haven't seen any hardware rumors, even people saying like, well, what about the HomePod with the screen thing?
01:42:27 ◼ ► But despite that, the fact that there is not a strong, like, somewhat plausibly leaked by Apple to some important publication message that says, don't expect any hardware WWDC.
01:42:40 ◼ ► Despite the fact that doesn't exist, I'm allowed to be out here thinking, you know, maybe there'll be a hardware announcement.
01:43:03 ◼ ► It's like, look, if you're going to update the Mac Pro with the M3 Ultra, God knows why you didn't do it when the studio was done.
01:43:18 ◼ ► Just do it and just be like, let's rip off the Band-Aid and so I can set my sights on next year.
01:43:22 ◼ ► Because that would let me know, hey, this year, if you're going to buy a new Mac, it's not going to be a Mac Pro.
01:43:28 ◼ ► Or, you know, if you have like an M4 Ultra or an M5 something, like whatever, you know, super secret thing.
01:43:39 ◼ ► It's so obscure that like, it's plausible that it wouldn't leak because who the hell cares?
01:44:04 ◼ ► With the redesign stuff and all of the other stuff, there's certainly not going to be any hardware.
01:44:07 ◼ ► But, you know, throw me a Mac Pro-shaped bone or a Mac Pro-shaped dagger in the form of an M3 Ultra Mac Pro.
01:44:25 ◼ ► I'm going to be sitting there going, come on, one in a million odds for Mac Pro anything.
01:44:40 ◼ ► I can't, I can't decide if it would be more funny if they canceled the Mac Pro or if they just said, oh, here's a new rev with the M3 Ultra.
01:44:50 ◼ ► It would be, it's going to be a disaster being around you for months if either of those things happen.
01:45:03 ◼ ► Like, I just, I'd like to have some kind of, not knowing, like, just being like, it could be Mac Pro.
01:45:21 ◼ ► And I think a justification for that could be that they're trying to distract from the AI disaster of, you know, the last year.
01:45:54 ◼ ► Like, is this redesign for some reason setting up for some sort of future hardware, especially if we get the alleged iPad, like, more robust windowing situation?
01:46:08 ◼ ► Are we in a situation like many years ago now, I forget what year it was, where all the phones were the exact same size, but they were like, hey, you should be able to support other sizes.
01:46:34 ◼ ► They built this entire engine to, like, recognize the light in the room and have it affect all the stuff in the UI.
01:46:43 ◼ ► What if they use the front camera on the iPhone to figure out what direction light sources are coming from among what it can see and actually add specular highlights to the glass in the UI based on the lighting in the room and how you move the phone around?
01:47:02 ◼ ► That's kind of like when I was talking about translucency where they use the back camera to allow, like, the desk underneath it to translucently show through the UI.
01:47:10 ◼ ► Yeah, I'll say the same thing to your crazy idea as I did to my own crazy idea back then.
01:47:21 ◼ ► Yeah, or at least for your thing, you just have to, like, glance at the camera every once in a while.
01:47:25 ◼ ► Like, they could do it, like, part of the rumor is that there actually will be glints, but any kind of glints like that across the UI that try to even just have a fake light direction, let alone a real one, I'm not sure how far they'll go in that direction.
01:47:37 ◼ ► Because that's problematic to implement in a bunch of ways, even ignoring the whole camera angle.
01:47:45 ◼ ► I don't want them to show through the, at least that was the whole day of, like, it's like a transparent phone.
01:47:53 ◼ ► It'll see right through your hand, and it's a, yeah, I don't like, please don't do that, Apple.
01:47:59 ◼ ► Not the least of which, because it will kill your battery, but, and for Casey's question about reflecting the hardware, like, it just kind of takes me back to the notched back books year where they made the menu bar taller.
01:48:11 ◼ ► We're like, oh, they're preparing macOS for touch when really they were just preparing it to have a taller menu bar because of the notch on the laptops.
01:48:21 ◼ ► And if you're just redesigning everything now, now would be a good time to set it up for touch.
01:48:25 ◼ ► Not that there's any particular rumors about touch-based Macs or anything, but, like, you're in there anyway.
01:48:32 ◼ ► Like, it just, this may be another one of those things that you'll need a leadership change to make happen.
01:48:40 ◼ ► But touch-based Macs will require, not require, but will benefit from some changes to the macOS UI.
01:48:48 ◼ ► I'm glad you brought that up because, like, in the redesign, everyone will be kind of squinting at it and saying, huh, why did they choose to do this thing?
01:48:59 ◼ ► One of the consequences of portrait orientation dialogues on macOS is that the buttons got way bigger, like, when they become full width and they stack vertically.
01:49:20 ◼ ► I thought we were here to say, also, Casey, is like, you remember when, you know, Aqua came out, the original Aqua?
01:49:26 ◼ ► Well, you don't remember, but the original Aqua had pinstripes, which are an homage to the stripes in the classic macOS windows, right?
01:49:37 ◼ ► Do you remember when there was, like, a synergy between how the OS looked, how macOS 10 looked, and how the iMac looked?
01:50:12 ◼ ► I don't think they need to do anything to iOS to make it expand to folding phone proportions.
01:50:17 ◼ ► But it will be interesting to look in the new APIs and, like, the symbols they forget to strip out to see if you can find ones that are referencing the alleged in-development Apple folding phone.
01:50:27 ◼ ► Because even though I think most iOS apps will be able to handle it without too much change because they're used to changing size a lot now and they also have the iPad code path for people who really want to take advantage of it, surely there will also be new APIs and new things to detect whether you're in that mode.
01:50:43 ◼ ► To make your app, Apple folding phone savvy, next year's WWDC or whatever, or the year after that.
01:51:07 ◼ ► Like, the modifier with, like, the on-drop or on-move or whatever, it already gives you an index set.
01:51:25 ◼ ► In Switchglass, I would love to have used lists because the list supports reordering automatically, but no.
01:51:31 ◼ ► Yeah, because Switchglass goes back to, like, 10.12, and SwiftUI and macOS is way behind where it still is, way behind where it is in iOS.
01:51:38 ◼ ► I had to implement all that myself, and I didn't do a good job, so be thankful you have what you have.
01:52:01 ◼ ► You can hear it every week, plus all the other member-exclusive content we've released, like a bunch of specials and everything, by joining.
01:52:07 ◼ ► This week on Overtime, we've been talking about Sky, a new AI app for macOS from the creators of Shortcuts.
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01:53:35 ◼ ► Well, why not? On the 29th of May, which was this past Thursday, as we record, there was a very brief post on Daring Fireball. It was brief enough that I will read the prose portion of it. The title is The Talk Show Live from WWDC 2025, Tuesday, June 10. You know, same location we're used to, same showtime, et cetera, et cetera.
01:53:57 ◼ ► And John Gruber wrote, ever since I started doing these live shows from WWDC, I've kept the guests secret until showtime. I'm still doing that this year, but in recent years, the guests have seemed a bit predictable. Senior executives from Apple. This year, I again extended my usual invitation to Apple, but for the first time since 2015, they declined. I think this will make a fascinating show, but I want to set everyone's expectations accordingly. I'm invigorated by this. See you at the show, I hope.
01:54:24 ◼ ► Well, uh, it's hard. It's hard to think of this. It's hard for me to think of this as a good look for Apple. I think it's in a lot of ways, a good look for John, but it's, it's hard for me to see how this is a good look for Apple. And it's hard, you know, as, as, as a person, as a human being, it's hard for me not to assume that they're just grumpy with the community right now.
01:54:51 ◼ ► And, and I don't know what to make of this, but, uh, Marco, you had some thoughts. You had enough thoughts that miracle of miracles. You actually did this thing. You posted to your blog. I don't even know what to do with myself that this happened.
01:55:19 ◼ ► But it was a great, great post. It really was. And actually, uh, since I'm blowing smoke up your butt, I, I reread the post that you had linked to your own post, um, live with Phil from June of 2015, which was also great and all, and had some really great photography as well. But, uh, both of these posts I thought were excellent, but do you want to talk through what you wrote? Uh, what a couple of days, a few days ago now?
01:55:39 ◼ ► Yeah. Um, you know, I had a lot of mixed feelings about this. Um, it's, it's hard not to assume a fairly cynical outcome here that like John Gruber published a pretty scathing critique of Apple's handling of the, uh, Apple intelligence, uh, debut last fall and the features they didn't ship and, and the kind of vaporware demos and promises they made, which was very unlike them. Um, and I, and I think, you know, rereading,
01:56:09 ◼ ► writing his something is rotten in the state of Cupertino posts, like, I don't see anything in that that was unfair, um, or, or untrue. You know, Apple screwed up pretty badly and he called him out on it. And it's, it's hard, you know, it was definitely the most critical he has been of Apple in a long time. And so it's hard not to draw a line between that and say, oh, he publishes that it lands like it's a bombshell when, when it lands.
01:56:39 ◼ ► Later, Apple doesn't want to go on stage with them. Like, it's possible. Like, they could have other reasons. You know, they, they're in the midst of all these, you know, court cases and, you know, disputes with regulators around the world. And like, they're in, they're at war with everybody, basically. And so it would be hard to get through an interview like that, if anybody's senior at Apple, without at least some difficult questions. Like, it would be weird.
01:57:08 ◼ ► It would be weird if there weren't questions about some of these things in an interview context. And so maybe Apple just decided they don't want to face those questions.
01:57:16 ◼ ► Now, Gruber was a pro. He would never ask something that they wouldn't be likely to answer. Like, you know, if you, when you're, when you're doing some kind of interview in this context or you have some Apple people or an Apple person that you're interviewing, you know, like, you're not going to ask them like, hey, what's the next iPhone look like? Or whatever. You know, they're, they're not going to tell you that kind of stuff.
01:57:38 ◼ ► At certain topics because you know that if you ask head on, they won't really be able to respond or they won't give you, they won't give you a useful response and everybody's time will just be wasted.
01:57:49 ◼ ► And John Gruber is really good at navigating those politics. I, I'm not worried that he would not be able to navigate the difficulty of interviewing Apple at this time. It seems like Apple just didn't want to.
01:58:04 ◼ ► And, you know, I, I, when I read back to, you know, I also read back what I wrote 10 years ago when, when Phil came on, what a moment that was.
01:58:16 ◼ ► And not only because Phil called me out from the stage, but partly because of it, like that, it was such a great moment.
01:58:23 ◼ ► And it started this, this 10 year run of Apple, you know, giving executives, you know, to, to Gruber to interview on stage for an hour every year.
01:58:37 ◼ ► And it gave amazing, like back, you know, back of the stage kind of commentary of like, here's, here's why we're doing some of the things we're doing.
01:58:45 ◼ ► And here's, here's some more, you know, detail, like one of my favorite dynamics that, that always took place there or the frequently took place there was you get Craig Federighi up there.
01:58:58 ◼ ► He was always there either with Phil or later with Greg Joswiak or other people, but like he was, so you get Federighi up there and Federighi is a nerd's nerd.
01:59:06 ◼ ► Like you could always tell, like, this is not somebody who was just like, he, he didn't rise through the ranks of just being a manager.
01:59:28 ◼ ► He kind of looks down in his lap for a while until you activate his nerd energy by asking a nerdy question.
01:59:36 ◼ ► Then he lights up and gives you an enthusiastic, honest, but still PR safe answer to what you asked that always shows in, you know, with, with care.
01:59:50 ◼ ► Like he, he was never like, you know, leaking secrets, but always kind of shows with like a little bit of seasoning of like, here's a little bit extra for you.
02:00:02 ◼ ► Here's a neat little trick of what we're doing that we, that we didn't announce in the keynote.
02:00:08 ◼ ► Here's a little technical detail or here's why this was hard or here's some of the challenges we face.
02:00:13 ◼ ► It was so humanizing and it was, it was such a gift to our community of enthusiasts and fans and nerds and developers and nothing bad ever came from those.
02:00:26 ◼ ► There was like every day, every time I would go the next day and look on, you know, Mac rumors or whatever, or the New York times or, you know, watch it.
02:00:47 ◼ ► There was usually only a small amount of good press and it was therefore kind of just like, here's a nice thing Apple does for the community.
02:01:04 ◼ ► The keynotes and the entire content of modern WBDC is severely lacking in human connection to the developers because as Apple has gotten bigger, these things have gotten more corporate, the video, like the keynote videos have had all humanity stripped out of them.
02:01:29 ◼ ► We're getting all these like produced, sanitized, like polished videos that might as well be AI generated.
02:01:44 ◼ ► There is zero humanity in those videos, except for the parts where they show all the developers who cured cancer, but like the actual like Apple people, when they speak about their products and whatever, like there is just no humanity left.
02:01:56 ◼ ► And so I feel like this was a rare outlet to see some of that, to get some of that, because these are all humans.
02:02:04 ◼ ► These are, they're, you know, they're good people trying to do good things, you know, and, and it's good to see that for them to stop doing this.
02:02:15 ◼ ► Maybe they saw what I was saying a minute ago of like, well, it never generated that much press.
02:02:22 ◼ ► But I think it, it was worth it because, you know, one thing that, one of the best compliments that I've ever gotten, and you've, I think the two of you have heard this as well.
02:02:32 ◼ ► Is that we've heard before that even though our show doesn't have like the biggest numbers in the world, like we're not Joe Rogan or anything close.
02:02:53 ◼ ► We have an audience that maybe, maybe we are more influential or we reach in influential places more so than average.
02:03:01 ◼ ► We've been told that over the years a few times and it seems, you know, not to toot our own horns.
02:03:07 ◼ ► It seems correct based on what we have, you know, been able to pick up, you know, from our very little information that we have.
02:03:12 ◼ ► And I think the talk show, first of all, serves a very similar audience, probably a bigger one.
02:03:18 ◼ ► But second of all, I think that the value of the execs doing that every year, it's not so much that they're not reaching as many people as like some YouTuber.
02:03:36 ◼ ► For whatever reason, whether it's a good reason, I don't quite know what that would be.
02:03:44 ◼ ► Or whether it's a cynical reason, like they're mad at Gruber for something as Ron and Cupertino.
02:03:52 ◼ ► I think they have, I think they're ending something that didn't need to end, that had value that maybe they are not accounting for.
02:04:07 ◼ ► What I suspect, honestly, based on how trends have been going, I suspect we are not going to see anything where Apple's being asked, like, kind of, you know, arbitrary free-form questions by people who are not, like, really soft interviews.
02:04:25 ◼ ► Like, what they did last year, they had this weird iJustine kind of fake talk show that they hosted on campus.
02:04:48 ◼ ► And it was Apple-hosted on Apple's campus, and it was basically iJustine being John Gruber, but, like, with Apple execs on stage before the real talk show.
02:05:00 ◼ ► Like, there was, like, no – it was basically, like, the interview equivalent of, like, hey, everything you just did in the keynote, tell me more about that.
02:05:10 ◼ ► And then, you know, the interviewees, you know, the Apple execs, well, as a matter of fact, we took privacy very seriously.
02:05:17 ◼ ► Like, it was just – it was almost as stripped of humanity as their keynote videos are.
02:05:25 ◼ ► Like, it didn't give any additional insight into the people and how they made these decisions and cool stuff we didn't know about, like we always got from the talk show.
02:05:41 ◼ ► It seemed like it was really the format and the situation were responsible for that, not the interviewer in particular.
02:05:57 ◼ ► We see, like, the people at Apple, you know – again, you can't ask them really, really, you know, direct, hard questions.
02:06:09 ◼ ► You kind of have to, like, you know, let Craig kind of smile at you and not answer the question and everybody in the audience laughs and everyone kind of knows what he's saying.
02:06:29 ◼ ► I think what we will see instead is a whole bunch of kind of, like, softball, you know, quick hits on YouTubers, and that's probably going to be it.
02:06:40 ◼ ► There's going to be, you know, nothing will really be said that wasn't already said in the keynote.
02:06:44 ◼ ► We will get no meaningful insights or it will be, like, little PR hand-selected anecdotes.
02:06:57 ◼ ► And that's a shame because Gruber's talk shows were never bland and they were very humanizing and I'm going to miss them.
02:07:03 ◼ ► I feel like this year, like, it's actually one of the most important years in a long time for Apple to speak to its developers at its developer conference.
02:07:33 ◼ ► Even so, it's the most important time for a PR perspective for Apple to get a chance to talk to developers, quote unquote, directly to make their case for whatever their case is.
02:07:51 ◼ ► They're just like, when there's dissatisfaction, one of the ways you can mitigate that is,
02:08:02 ◼ ► Like, again, we're not announcing anything or whatever, but, like, let's talk about it.
02:08:09 ◼ ► It was essentially giving the most enthusiastic of your developers access to your executives by proxy,
02:08:17 ◼ ► by having, quote, one of them up on stage talking to the people about some of the things that you would talk about if you were on stage with them.
02:08:28 ◼ ► It is literally an audience of people who would go to WWDC in person, which was, you know, a few thousand people, right?
02:08:38 ◼ ► That's one of the reasons the iJustine thing was so ill-considered, because, like, iJustine's audience is a mass audience.
02:08:58 ◼ ► Millions and millions of regular people are never going to watch her talk to a bunch of Apple executives whose names they don't know.
02:09:26 ◼ ► We want to see John Gruber asking questions because we are this weird little narrow slice of people.
02:09:31 ◼ ► So, choosing this year to not go on John Gruber's show and have him ask you questions can go one of you in two ways.
02:09:46 ◼ ► That is an unfortunate reality of dealing with companies and access and blah, blah, blah.
02:10:03 ◼ ► But what you would hope is that, like, that they would still feel like, all right, we're going to talk to MKBHD.
02:10:13 ◼ ► Well, like, they got their list of, like, these executives are going to know these people.
02:10:17 ◼ ► It's like, oh, yeah, and we'll send some people to talk to these super nerds who actually come to WWDC.
02:10:21 ◼ ► And historically, they had done that by letting John Grimber ask them questions for the past 10 years.
02:10:25 ◼ ► But maybe like, oh, instead of John this year, we're going to go with somebody else or whatever.
02:10:34 ◼ ► But if they still do that, if they still feel the need, like, we need to talk directly to our most hardcore developers and to do all the stuff that you just said, Marco, to humanize the people behind the decisions and the things.
02:10:45 ◼ ► And like, maybe there's someone else who fills that role that someone else cannot be like MKBHD.
02:10:50 ◼ ► His he talks to a mass audience of people who are not Apple developers like that's not his audience.
02:10:56 ◼ ► You're already talking to him to reach his people, which is like the vast majority of customers in the world who buy your products.
02:11:07 ◼ ► And I get that the talk show audience is the tiniest slice of a tiny little pie of this little obscure corner or whatever.
02:11:14 ◼ ► But I think the reason they did it for 10 years is like you were saying about our show.
02:11:17 ◼ ► It's like, OK, so the audience may be tiny, but it is actually a disproportionately important audience to you.
02:11:30 ◼ ► but the developers who care so much that they're going to fly from wherever they are in the world to California to at this point,
02:11:46 ◼ ► especially when that base has some dissatisfaction with you is an important thing to do.
02:11:51 ◼ ► And so if they're not going to do it through John, I really hope they're just not going to do it, period,
02:12:18 ◼ ► And like when they get dissatisfied, that's I would think that if I worked in PR on Apple,
02:12:29 ◼ ► I'm going to convince them that all the things that they're grumpy about aren't actually as bad as they are.
02:12:39 ◼ ► Like, oh, people are mad, but I'm going to I'm going to explain it in a way that makes them less mad.
02:12:49 ◼ ► We're just not going to talk to those people at all, because that is not going to make the relationship better at all.
02:13:04 ◼ ► Somebody who speaks to the people who are at the talk show live are an even narrower subset of the people who are at WWDC, which is a very narrow subset of all the developers.
02:13:27 ◼ ► And so I really hope that I mean, it's bad for John if they just swap him out for somebody else.
02:13:35 ◼ ► And because of the circle we travel in, we'd flatter ourselves to say, well, if they do talk to someone like that, wouldn't we know who it is?
02:13:44 ◼ ► Like, not every YouTuber is MKBHD or iJustine with, like, millions and millions of regular people watching.
02:13:57 ◼ ► And it's not even to say that, you know, that MKBHD or iJustine or any of those people couldn't ask more pointed and technical questions.
02:14:05 ◼ ► They just tend to focus their content on a broader audience, which is wise when you have such a big audience.
02:14:11 ◼ ► You know, if they did, oh, you get 10 minutes with Tim Cook and they talk about some really obscure technical thing that millions of people watch and go, why the heck did he ask those questions?
02:14:19 ◼ ► But anyway, I hope I don't know anything about what is actually happening, but I hope we see some of those same Apple executives that we normally see talking to somebody who is not an anchor on CNBC, who is not the New York Times reporter, who is not even, you know, Joanna Stern.
02:14:37 ◼ ► Like she could ask amazing questions, too, but she's probably going to focus a little more broadly because the Wall Street Journal is not, you know, a technical paper.
02:14:47 ◼ ► So, boy, I hope I hope they just don't stop talking to this group entirely, because I think that's not tenable.
02:15:05 ◼ ► We were sad that we couldn't do the talk show this year, but maybe we'll see you next year because it's so like it is so important for this relationship for them to come out and have a chance to.
02:15:17 ◼ ► I don't know if I explain themselves, but have a chance to reengage, like to stay engaged, to stay engaged with their most hardcore developers, because there's a little bit of bad blood there.
02:15:29 ◼ ► And one, even if not, even if no one changes their position and no one changes any policies, no one does anything.
02:15:42 ◼ ► I mean, certainly, like you said, we've heard no rumblings or rumors or anything like that, that there's any, you know, stand in or de facto John Gruber that's taking over.
02:15:53 ◼ ► I'm really sad that this is no longer a thing because I really obviously John is a friend, but I genuinely believe that he did an impeccable job of riding the line between.
02:16:05 ◼ ► You know, asking interesting and to a degree, challenging questions, but not asking the ones, as you said, Marco, that that they're never going to answer.
02:16:16 ◼ ► And so I miss I feel like John was uniquely qualified to interview these executives because he really did strike an incredible balance.
02:16:27 ◼ ► And I feel like every single WWDC for the last 10 years, I watched the talk show, often lucky enough to do so in person.
02:16:34 ◼ ► And I always got a tidbit that I didn't know before and that I found to be genuinely fascinating.
02:16:52 ◼ ► Yeah, the big thing that John had going for him from our perspective is that many of the things that we are interested in and concerned about, he's also interested and concerned about.
02:17:06 ◼ ► Like you want someone up on stage to ask about the thing that I want to know about, even if it's really weird and obscure.
02:17:14 ◼ ► And that would tend to happen with John and not to say that we're representative of all developers, because I bet there are a bunch of developers who are like, let's say, game developers who John never asked the questions that they wanted to hear asked.
02:17:28 ◼ ► But still, it's good to have somebody who you feel like is your proxy who gets to interact with executives who maybe has a chance of asking a thing that you're interested in hearing the answer to.
02:17:43 ◼ ► Back when there was more in-person things and in-person sessions, you could find people who worked on the framework that you're interested in and talk to them.
02:17:51 ◼ ► But going all the way up to the top, it is good to extend that not just to the rank and file people in labs and stuff, but all the way up to the big executives, because some questions are the bigger questions that an executive should address.
02:18:03 ◼ ► And some of the smaller questions like when is multiple selections coming to list in Swift UI and WWC should cover that whole range.
02:18:11 ◼ ► And it'll it'll be a shame to see it'll be a shame for us to see the like that we can talk to the engineers and stuff in labs, but that the things that we care about will never be asked again to executives because Apple just doesn't see any benefit in answering those questions and doesn't value our relationship enough to to to like the intangibles.
02:18:31 ◼ ► That Marco was talking about to like go up there and appear human and show that, you know, show enthusiasm interest and say, we're we're not so you know, we're actually what's the what's the cliche that I'm blowing your case.