Upgrade

00:00:00 ◼   ► Hello, welcome to my lecture.

00:00:30 ◼   ► And maybe what I want to say is nope, but yeah, I mean, maybe they did offer, uh, cause

00:00:36 ◼   ► I usually do Mac break weekly on Tuesday and they're pushing it back and they said, you

00:00:40 ◼   ► guys, uh, you know, you can come early if you want and just talk about Google IO and

00:00:44 ◼   ► to that I gave a resounding, nope, I'm not going to commentate on it, but I, I pay vague

00:00:50 ◼   ► attention.

00:00:50 ◼   ► I do that.

00:00:50 ◼   ► I do that second level.

00:00:52 ◼   ► It is a tech keynote that I get to enjoy through the reflection of people who are paying attention

00:00:56 ◼   ► to it rather than having to pay attention to it myself.

00:00:59 ◼   ► I like that.

00:01:00 ◼   ► It's not one I expect to watch live, but I will watch, I plan to watch it later.

00:01:03 ◼   ► I would definitely watch one of the chopped up verge things that they do.

00:01:08 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:01:08 ◼   ► The verge edited down.

00:01:09 ◼   ► That's the, those are the good ones.

00:01:10 ◼   ► Cause I, Google IO, I mean, I watched the, they did their Android show thing, right?

00:01:16 ◼   ► That where they, they just said stuff in Android.

00:01:18 ◼   ► I watched all of that cause that was like 15 minutes long, but Google IO is like three

00:01:22 ◼   ► hours and it's like just full of every team.

00:01:25 ◼   ► We'll find out.

00:01:26 ◼   ► I mean, I don't know.

00:01:26 ◼   ► It's obviously all Gemini all the time.

00:01:28 ◼   ► It's the expectation.

00:01:28 ◼   ► We'll find out what it's all about.

00:01:30 ◼   ► Maybe we'll talk about it next week, but probably not.

00:01:32 ◼   ► We'll talk about it on connected though.

00:01:34 ◼   ► Anyway, I have a snow talk question for you.

00:01:35 ◼   ► It comes from Colin who wants to know, Jason, do you ever fill out a scorecard when you go

00:01:40 ◼   ► to the baseballs game?

00:01:42 ◼   ► Uh, thank you.

00:01:43 ◼   ► Yes.

00:01:44 ◼   ► The baseballs game when they roll the baseballs around.

00:01:46 ◼   ► Open the gates.

00:01:47 ◼   ► Uh, I, I, now that I feel, you know, this is happening like, like Mike is not a, a real

00:01:52 ◼   ► baseball fan, but we know that Mike and Adina came to a Giants game.

00:01:55 ◼   ► They buy the Giants jerseys.

00:01:56 ◼   ► They are, they are full blown Giants fans now.

00:02:00 ◼   ► They're Giants maniacs.

00:02:01 ◼   ► There's not a day that goes by that Mike isn't sending me a text saying, Jason, what's

00:02:05 ◼   ► going on with the Giants?

00:02:05 ◼   ► And then I say, let's go Giants.

00:02:07 ◼   ► Because baseball news doesn't, isn't available, it's blocked by the UK government for some

00:02:12 ◼   ► reason.

00:02:12 ◼   ► It's trying to protect cricket or something.

00:02:13 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:02:14 ◼   ► I mean, most of these websites genuinely are GDPR blocked because it's like, no one could

00:02:19 ◼   ► ever be bothered to, to hire a consultant.

00:02:22 ◼   ► So like, like the SF Chronicle website, I just can't go to and I've like never been able

00:02:26 ◼   ► to go there.

00:02:26 ◼   ► So I can't get my Giants news.

00:02:27 ◼   ► Yeah, that's true.

00:02:29 ◼   ► That's true.

00:02:29 ◼   ► What's funny about, um, about all of this is that there is a, a John, they do a series,

00:02:34 ◼   ► a major league baseball series in London every year.

00:02:37 ◼   ► The tickets are so hard to buy.

00:02:38 ◼   ► They're trying to do that.

00:02:38 ◼   ► They're so hard to buy those tickets.

00:02:41 ◼   ► Oh my God.

00:02:41 ◼   ► I've tried before.

00:02:41 ◼   ► Yeah, because they only do a couple of games there, which is, um, as opposed to the NFL,

00:02:45 ◼   ► which is doing like, I don't know, six games in London this year.

00:02:49 ◼   ► Something like that.

00:02:50 ◼   ► They're doing them everywhere.

00:02:50 ◼   ► It's a lot.

00:02:50 ◼   ► They're doing them absolutely everywhere.

00:02:52 ◼   ► And Berlin and Madrid.

00:02:55 ◼   ► Brazil, I think?

00:02:56 ◼   ► And Sao Paulo.

00:02:57 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:02:58 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:03:00 ◼   ► Oh yeah.

00:03:00 ◼   ► That's the sign of the league that thinks that it can conquer the world and it might be able

00:03:05 ◼   ► to.

00:03:05 ◼   ► It's got the money for it.

00:03:06 ◼   ► Um, anyway, baseball.

00:03:09 ◼   ► So I was at the Giants game on Saturday night.

00:03:12 ◼   ► I sent Mike, as I often do when I go to a baseball game, I sent Mike a picture of the

00:03:17 ◼   ► baseball field from the stands.

00:03:19 ◼   ► And, uh, this time since it was a night game, I knew that it would be brightening Mike's Sunday

00:03:23 ◼   ► morning.

00:03:24 ◼   ► Definitely.

00:03:25 ◼   ► And he replied with go Giants.

00:03:26 ◼   ► Uh, let's go Giants.

00:03:27 ◼   ► So answer to your question, Colin, do I ever fill out a scorecard while you're at a baseball

00:03:33 ◼   ► game?

00:03:33 ◼   ► Well, Colin, this is one of those things where I'm going to top you and say, actually, no,

00:03:38 ◼   ► I don't fill out a scorecard at a baseball game because I own my own scorebook that I bring

00:03:43 ◼   ► to every baseball game I attend.

00:03:46 ◼   ► And this is going to lead to the inevitable podcast follow-up question, which is Jason,

00:03:50 ◼   ► what scorebook do you bring?

00:03:52 ◼   ► Which I think I have covered on at least one podcast recently, but I'll just mention it again.

00:03:55 ◼   ► It is the Ephus Halfliner.

00:03:57 ◼   ► We'll put a link in the show notes.

00:03:58 ◼   ► This is really good looking.

00:03:59 ◼   ► It's great.

00:04:00 ◼   ► It's really well done.

00:04:01 ◼   ► You would, yes, you would appreciate it from a, uh, a standpoint of it being very carefully

00:04:07 ◼   ► designed.

00:04:08 ◼   ► The paper is good.

00:04:09 ◼   ► The, the, the heavier, uh, cover board is really good.

00:04:13 ◼   ► Needed.

00:04:14 ◼   ► Just on your lap, right?

00:04:15 ◼   ► Really, really well made.

00:04:17 ◼   ► Uh, previously I used a, uh, the, what's the score scoreboard scorecard that I got a couple

00:04:22 ◼   ► copies at Cody's books in Berkeley, which is out of business.

00:04:25 ◼   ► And when I got through those two book cards that I bought books that I bought, I thought,

00:04:29 ◼   ► what am I going to do?

00:04:30 ◼   ► And some, one of the sports writers I follow on, uh, on back then it was Twitter actually

00:04:34 ◼   ► recommended the Halfliner and I love it.

00:04:37 ◼   ► It's very good.

00:04:37 ◼   ► And it's got some cute touches, like what's the current weather conditions.

00:04:41 ◼   ► And, uh, one of them is it's on television, which I like if you're scoring a game on TV

00:04:47 ◼   ► instead, you can just put it's on television.

00:04:49 ◼   ► And, uh, it's also got, who are you rooting for?

00:04:52 ◼   ► Which I also find just kind of adorable, like home or visitor and, uh, and yeah, it's, it's

00:04:57 ◼   ► great.

00:04:57 ◼   ► So I do, I do take score, keep score at baseball games.

00:05:00 ◼   ► I really enjoy it.

00:05:01 ◼   ► It, uh, not only sort of focuses and gives you something to do that also makes you pay attention

00:05:06 ◼   ► to the game.

00:05:07 ◼   ► It leads to amusing moments where I need to go to the bathroom and I tell Lauren to preserve

00:05:11 ◼   ► statistical integrity, which is not, I mean, I actually told her on Saturday, I'm like,

00:05:16 ◼   ► don't, don't worry about it.

00:05:17 ◼   ► Like it's on the scoreboard.

00:05:18 ◼   ► What happened?

00:05:18 ◼   ► I can just fill it in later.

00:05:19 ◼   ► It's not a big deal, but, uh, I like it and it does become a souvenir.

00:05:23 ◼   ► I was just looking through, we were, we were wondering if, have they won every game we've

00:05:26 ◼   ► gone to this year?

00:05:27 ◼   ► I can answer that question.

00:05:29 ◼   ► I've got my visits to Arizona where we go to the Diamondbacks games with my mom.

00:05:33 ◼   ► I've got those in there.

00:05:34 ◼   ► I was just looking the other day, John Oliver did a piece about minor league baseball teams

00:05:39 ◼   ► with, uh, silly, uh, promotional names and I've got the, uh, Eugene, uh, exploding whales

00:05:47 ◼   ► promotional game that he talked about.

00:05:49 ◼   ► We were there.

00:05:50 ◼   ► Uh, I've got that in there.

00:05:52 ◼   ► And then I actually noticed that there's a current San Francisco giant who played in one

00:05:55 ◼   ► of those games and they're written down in the scorebook too.

00:05:57 ◼   ► So I, I, there are a lot of reasons why I do it and, uh, it's fun.

00:06:01 ◼   ► So that's, that's my long Snell Talk answer.

00:06:04 ◼   ► Yes, indeed.

00:06:05 ◼   ► I keep scoring every single game and I use, uh, Brad Dowdy's spoke pen.

00:06:10 ◼   ► Mm-hmm.

00:06:11 ◼   ► His Kickstarter collab.

00:06:13 ◼   ► I use the, that, that spoke pen in orange, giant's orange, uh, to do the scoring because

00:06:22 ◼   ► it, it, it rides along.

00:06:23 ◼   ► It's got the neat little magnetic top and it rides along perfectly fits in the little

00:06:28 ◼   ► rings of the scorebook, which is nice.

00:06:31 ◼   ► So I don't lose my pen and have nothing to write with.

00:06:33 ◼   ► Very good.

00:06:34 ◼   ► If you would like to send in a Snell Talk question for us to open a future episode of the show,

00:06:38 ◼   ► please go to upgradefeedback.com and send in your Snell Talk.

00:06:42 ◼   ► As you can also send in follow-up to which some people do.

00:06:45 ◼   ► Uh, one of those people was Joey who wrote in to say, Mike said something about the final

00:06:50 ◼   ► episode of this season at the studio on last week's show, but there were two more episodes

00:06:54 ◼   ► left.

00:06:55 ◼   ► I was very happy to get this feedback.

00:06:57 ◼   ► I don't know, I don't know why I thought that was the end.

00:06:59 ◼   ► It did feel like the end, uh, episode 10.

00:07:02 ◼   ► Um, but then last week's episode, episode 11, another banger, just, oh my God, the show

00:07:08 ◼   ► continues to absolutely crush it.

00:07:10 ◼   ► Uh, great cameo from Matt Bellany in the episode, which is wonderful for listeners of the town.

00:07:16 ◼   ► Uh, just to, just to, oh my God, I love the show so much.

00:07:21 ◼   ► I think it's my show of the year.

00:07:22 ◼   ► I think I'm two episodes back now, but it's great.

00:07:25 ◼   ► I love it.

00:07:25 ◼   ► I just, there's been so much.

00:07:27 ◼   ► And then I was traveling and when I'm traveling, we sort of don't watch the shows that we watch

00:07:31 ◼   ► together.

00:07:31 ◼   ► And so, um, we're like way behind now, but, uh, we did just watch episode, I don't know,

00:07:38 ◼   ► seven or eight last eight, maybe last night.

00:07:40 ◼   ► So we're, we'll, we'll get there.

00:07:42 ◼   ► We'll get there.

00:07:42 ◼   ► I said it before.

00:07:43 ◼   ► I'll say again, though, like the, what's one of the things that's so great about this show

00:07:47 ◼   ► is the pacing.

00:07:48 ◼   ► They cram so much stuff into 30 minutes.

00:07:51 ◼   ► Like it's truly astounding.

00:07:53 ◼   ► Like the show feels so much longer each episode than it is, but not in a bad way.

00:07:58 ◼   ► It just feels like so much happens.

00:07:59 ◼   ► And I think a lot of that is just because of the production.

00:08:01 ◼   ► It's like, it's all as many one shots as they can do they're doing.

00:08:06 ◼   ► And so you're kind of like in the moments for longer than you would normally in a TV

00:08:10 ◼   ► show.

00:08:10 ◼   ► Like there's actually quite a lot of just watching characters walk places like, and like get ready

00:08:14 ◼   ► for a moment, which you would not normally say it's, it's very, it's a very, very, very

00:08:18 ◼   ► good show.

00:08:19 ◼   ► If you have not watched the studio, you should, you should watch the studio.

00:08:23 ◼   ► Like don't just think like, Oh, it's just for people that love movies.

00:08:26 ◼   ► Like you'd say people who really care about the film business.

00:08:28 ◼   ► It really rewards people who do, but otherwise it is also just a very funny show, like kind

00:08:34 ◼   ► of like a situation comedy kind of show.

00:08:36 ◼   ► So I recommend it.

00:08:37 ◼   ► Last week, President Trump said to the media, and I'm going to read this, so I'm quoting

00:08:45 ◼   ► here.

00:08:45 ◼   ► All right.

00:08:46 ◼   ► So, you know, it can be a bit, uh, I had a little problem with Tim Cook yesterday.

00:08:50 ◼   ► He's building all over India.

00:08:52 ◼   ► I don't want you building in India.

00:08:53 ◼   ► I said to Tim, I said, Tim, look, we treated you really good.

00:08:56 ◼   ► We put up with all the plants you build in China for years.

00:08:59 ◼   ► Now you got to build us.

00:09:00 ◼   ► We're not interested in you building in India.

00:09:03 ◼   ► India can take care of themselves.

00:09:04 ◼   ► We want you to build here.

00:09:05 ◼   ► Uh, Trump also said Apple were quote upping their production in the United States.

00:09:11 ◼   ► That last part doesn't mean anything.

00:09:12 ◼   ► Uh, but the first part is like, whoops, there goes the tariff dodging plan.

00:09:17 ◼   ► Whoopsie.

00:09:18 ◼   ► Does it, does it though?

00:09:21 ◼   ► Maybe.

00:09:21 ◼   ► Does it?

00:09:22 ◼   ► I mean, I, I think the game Apple is playing and this is the game that everybody's playing

00:09:26 ◼   ► right now, which is you're, you're, you're, there's reality and then there's Trump reality

00:09:30 ◼   ► and Trump reality isn't, it's related to, but not actually anchored to reality.

00:09:36 ◼   ► And so what they want to do is find a way to allow the president to declare success in getting

00:09:43 ◼   ► Apple to do what he wants while also being able to manage their business and be a decent

00:09:49 ◼   ► business.

00:09:49 ◼   ► And, uh, and so you end up, you know, there will be pirouettes, there will be smoke screens,

00:09:57 ◼   ► there will be a hall of mirrors, they will make declarations of things.

00:10:03 ◼   ► And, you know, the goal is for Apple to be able to one, execute its business like it

00:10:09 ◼   ► wants and to not get the president to, uh, make their business harder and give him, give

00:10:17 ◼   ► him opportunities to declare victory.

00:10:20 ◼   ► And in fact, like as much as that's like, I got a little problem with Tim cook, but then,

00:10:26 ◼   ► then he says, but Apple's upping their production in the United States.

00:10:29 ◼   ► And I think this is the game they're playing.

00:10:31 ◼   ► And I think behind the scenes, this is the message that they're sending, especially to

00:10:34 ◼   ► the people, you know, underneath him who they talk to probably more often, which is, you

00:10:39 ◼   ► know, we're weak.

00:10:40 ◼   ► It's impossible for us to just open an iPhone plant in the U S so we have to be find ways

00:10:45 ◼   ► to ship the products now while we're also building for the future.

00:10:48 ◼   ► And, you know, you want to be able to kind of steer it, but the problem is that the guy

00:10:53 ◼   ► at the top is just going to do whatever he is going to do and say whatever he's going to

00:10:56 ◼   ► say, and if the eye of Sauron comes on you, you just, you, you know, in that moment, you're

00:11:01 ◼   ► like, yeah, we are building plants in India, but we love you.

00:11:04 ◼   ► And we're building 500,000 billion, billion, whatever is in the U S and it's great.

00:11:09 ◼   ► And, and just hope that the eye moves elsewhere.

00:11:12 ◼   ► And then you can just sort of sigh, a sigh of relief.

00:11:15 ◼   ► That's how that's life for businesses in the United States right now.

00:11:18 ◼   ► That's it.

00:11:19 ◼   ► So we'll see.

00:11:20 ◼   ► I think my, my point, I just, the Apple had a plan, right?

00:11:25 ◼   ► Which was just, Oh, we'll just move to India.

00:11:27 ◼   ► We're still paying tariffs.

00:11:28 ◼   ► We'll just move to India.

00:11:29 ◼   ► I don't think that they expected him to be like, you know, I don't think this was part

00:11:36 ◼   ► of the plan.

00:11:36 ◼   ► I mean, he says it, but does that mean he's actually raising tariffs in India?

00:11:40 ◼   ► You know, are they going to strategically increase tariffs wherever Apple is just to spite

00:11:44 ◼   ► Apple, or is he just expressing off the top of his mind, his dissatisfaction with this

00:11:49 ◼   ► thing, which is probably there's somebody inside the administration who said, sir, we've

00:11:54 ◼   ► already told you, you know, they can't do it right now, but they are working on it and 500

00:11:57 ◼   ► billion and et cetera, et cetera.

00:11:59 ◼   ► But they also need to ship iPhones this year and they can't do that there.

00:12:03 ◼   ► And then, you know, he, he, maybe he hears that and maybe some of that plants in his brain

00:12:08 ◼   ► and other stuff doesn't.

00:12:09 ◼   ► And that's just, that's, that's, that's the deal.

00:12:12 ◼   ► That's the deal.

00:12:14 ◼   ► The thing that I'm, I'm wondering here, like in the longterm, like is, is what plays

00:12:18 ◼   ► out because I am unsure if I'm unsure of what the Trump administration actually thinks tech

00:12:29 ◼   ► companies are capable of or willing to do, or like any kind of manufacturing, like, do they

00:12:35 ◼   ► actually believe at any level that say, let's say Apple could manufacture iPhones in America?

00:12:43 ◼   ► Like I, like I genuinely don't know the answer to that question because we all say they can't,

00:12:48 ◼   ► I mean, technically, technically they could, but you wouldn't, right?

00:12:52 ◼   ► Like they could try, but it's not going to work, right?

00:12:55 ◼   ► Or they could pour in the trillions of dollars to make the $4,000 iPhone, right?

00:13:00 ◼   ► Like you could in theory with absolute brute forcing, you could do it in some period of time,

00:13:08 ◼   ► say, right?

00:13:08 ◼   ► And I just wonder like, what is the end game like to all of these tech companies saying

00:13:14 ◼   ► they're going to do this?

00:13:15 ◼   ► Like, is the expectation ever at any point that any company is going to increase their U.S.

00:13:21 ◼   ► manufacturing?

00:13:23 ◼   ► I think, I mean, the cost to do it in the U.S. is so great that I don't think that there's

00:13:29 ◼   ► a tariff regime possible that would make it worth it, honestly.

00:13:33 ◼   ► No, for sure, there isn't.

00:13:34 ◼   ► It would take the cutting off of all supplies or something.

00:13:38 ◼   ► You would laugh at the 145% tariff at that point, right?

00:13:42 ◼   ► For like what the cost of the iPhone would be.

00:13:44 ◼   ► If you had an assembly plant ready to go, you would have to import all the parts, right?

00:13:50 ◼   ► Almost all the parts, maybe not all, but many of them.

00:13:53 ◼   ► So I think we've seen it with the Mac Pro.

00:13:57 ◼   ► I think there are going to be gestures toward assembling some lower volume products in the U.S.

00:14:06 ◼   ► I think there will be some gestures toward propping up suppliers that are based in the U.S.,

00:14:13 ◼   ► which already exist.

00:14:14 ◼   ► And that's been going on for 10 years, at least, if not longer.

00:14:17 ◼   ► And, you know, it's Apple boasting about Corning building, you know, doing Gorilla Glass in the U.S.

00:14:22 ◼   ► It's now, despite the fact that Trump is against it, I guess because it's a Joe Biden thing,

00:14:27 ◼   ► like the Chips Act and the fact that they're building TSMC plants that are legacy nodes, right?

00:14:34 ◼   ► But they are TSMC chip plants in the U.S., that is going to allow them to source those chips from the U.S.

00:14:44 ◼   ► So, you know, you may, it's going to be a combination of some, I would guess, low volume products that can be built in the U.S.

00:14:52 ◼   ► And also the game Apple's been playing for a while now, which is look at all of the, this is an international business,

00:15:00 ◼   ► but there are so many parts of it that are from the U.S. that we can, you know, we're creating jobs in the U.S.

00:15:05 ◼   ► Because I think the truth is Apple can't play the game of we're just going to assemble the iPhone in the U.S.

00:15:10 ◼   ► It's not possible.

00:15:11 ◼   ► So instead they are playing this other game and, you know, you risk Trump's wrath, but they're playing the game,

00:15:17 ◼   ► which is look at all of the jobs we create in the U.S. that are great jobs that are because of our product that we create.

00:15:27 ◼   ► And even though it is assembled in China, which they could argue is like, that's not even a great job.

00:15:31 ◼   ► Don't worry about it.

00:15:32 ◼   ► Like, but look at this, these chips and look at this, this glass and look at the, you know, the, and, and of course,

00:15:40 ◼   ► all the app developers and all the people who work at Apple and that like Apple is, is an international company,

00:15:46 ◼   ► but it's also got a huge amount of jobs that it's creating in the U.S.

00:15:49 ◼   ► However, if the president of the United States becomes focused entirely on that, the iPhones

00:15:54 ◼   ► are coming in on boats from China or India, then, I mean, I don't know what you do at that point.

00:16:02 ◼   ► Like there's nothing they can do really.

00:16:04 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:16:05 ◼   ► I mean, I think it's just, I, I just wonder if at any point the chickens are coming home to roost,

00:16:13 ◼   ► right?

00:16:14 ◼   ► Like every come, all of these companies are talking about the investment, the, oh, we're

00:16:18 ◼   ► going to invest in America.

00:16:19 ◼   ► We're investing in American manufacturing.

00:16:21 ◼   ► But like, no one's really doing it in the way that anyone wants it to be done.

00:16:26 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:16:26 ◼   ► Right.

00:16:27 ◼   ► And I just wonder what is the long game on that?

00:16:29 ◼   ► If, and if there is one, maybe there isn't one.

00:16:31 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:16:32 ◼   ► I say, think of it like, like you're filling up a glass of water or like, or just basically

00:16:36 ◼   ► like a gradient, you know, at the bottom is the easy stuff to do.

00:16:40 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:16:41 ◼   ► And that starts with, actually that starts with the stuff that's already here.

00:16:44 ◼   ► That's, that's Corning, right?

00:16:46 ◼   ► Corning is like, we make our glass here.

00:16:47 ◼   ► You just pay more money for the thing you're already doing.

00:16:50 ◼   ► Corning decided, I don't know the history of Corning, but like Corning decided that at

00:16:57 ◼   ► least some portion of their glass manufacturing, if not all of it is here.

00:17:00 ◼   ► And my uncle used to work for a glass and plastic manufacturer and they had lots and lots of plants

00:17:05 ◼   ► in the United States.

00:17:06 ◼   ► And I think they still do.

00:17:07 ◼   ► So you start with those and then you're like, all right, definitely people want stuff built

00:17:12 ◼   ► in America.

00:17:12 ◼   ► We're an American company.

00:17:13 ◼   ► We feel the pressure.

00:17:14 ◼   ► And I would say probably legitimately the responsibility.

00:17:17 ◼   ► I think, I think that they do feel some level of responsibility as an American company.

00:17:21 ◼   ► I would say Apple very much is like, what do you mean?

00:17:24 ◼   ► The best jobs that we create in America are the people who work at Apple in America.

00:17:30 ◼   ► And there are lots of them, right?

00:17:31 ◼   ► Like they'll, they'll say that, but okay.

00:17:33 ◼   ► So you start to fill up that glass of water, you start to go up that gradient.

00:17:37 ◼   ► And what you're doing is it's, it's stuff that is less low hanging fruit.

00:17:42 ◼   ► It's a little more difficult.

00:17:44 ◼   ► It's, it's an old plant.

00:17:46 ◼   ► You've got to reactivate.

00:17:47 ◼   ► It's a, uh, it's a new plant you have to build.

00:17:50 ◼   ► The margins aren't as good, but you can, you can kind of get away with it.

00:17:54 ◼   ► And, or to throw in another metaphor, you could say it's like boiling the frog, but either

00:17:58 ◼   ► way, right?

00:17:58 ◼   ► Like as you go up that line, as you fill that glass of water, you are, every step you

00:18:05 ◼   ► make is harder as you move up that gradient, every step is harder.

00:18:09 ◼   ► And so I feel like what's happening is all these companies are pushing further up, right?

00:18:15 ◼   ► This is a harder decision.

00:18:17 ◼   ► The return on investment is less, but we need to do it.

00:18:21 ◼   ► At some point there has to be a break, right?

00:18:26 ◼   ► Like at some point you can't go further up because going further up will either destroy

00:18:33 ◼   ► your business or can't possibly be better than the alternative.

00:18:40 ◼   ► Right.

00:18:41 ◼   ► And that's, that, that's the point with which like, there's probably no tariff short of breaking

00:18:46 ◼   ► Chinese imports entirely, right?

00:18:48 ◼   ► Like there's no tariff that is going to make it more likely that you'll build an iPhone

00:18:55 ◼   ► in the, assemble an iPhone in the U S than in China, probably, right?

00:18:58 ◼   ► Not, not for the next 15 years, maybe in the long run, because standards, a thing that has

00:19:03 ◼   ► been pointed out in a few different places that I think it's worth talking about, like standards

00:19:07 ◼   ► in China are rising.

00:19:09 ◼   ► Work standards are rising.

00:19:11 ◼   ► Pay standards are rising.

00:19:13 ◼   ► The economy in some ways is improving in ways in China that changed the dynamic.

00:19:18 ◼   ► And I read a piece, I can't, I don't know who it was.

00:19:21 ◼   ► Was it Ben Thompson?

00:19:21 ◼   ► Was it linked to from him?

00:19:22 ◼   ► I read a piece that said, it's a mistake to think that things are cheaper to make in China

00:19:29 ◼   ► and that people make them in China because everybody's paid badly and it's, they're mistreated

00:19:34 ◼   ► and all of that.

00:19:35 ◼   ► A lot of it is that China has built sophisticated, automated assembly facilities and the jobs are,

00:19:43 ◼   ► are, are sophisticated and, um, hard to come, hard to come by and you need to educate people

00:19:50 ◼   ► to do them.

00:19:50 ◼   ► And that that's hard to replicate in the U S we just don't have those kinds of factories

00:19:54 ◼   ► here.

00:19:54 ◼   ► So like there's a scenario there where over the course of 10 or 20 years, as economies

00:20:01 ◼   ► change, that if the U S has a really concerted effort to, to build up some stuff in America,

00:20:08 ◼   ► you could get it.

00:20:09 ◼   ► So probably not so that it's your first choice, but that it's, it's not at the top of the glass

00:20:14 ◼   ► of water that you could actually go, all right, we could do it.

00:20:17 ◼   ► And, you know, we could assemble some things here and you could do it, but I don't think

00:20:21 ◼   ► we're there yet.

00:20:21 ◼   ► So I don't know.

00:20:22 ◼   ► I mean, this is, this is the fundamentally, Mike, I think the problem here is that the

00:20:27 ◼   ► president of the United States wants a, wants something to be real.

00:20:30 ◼   ► That is impossible.

00:20:31 ◼   ► Um, not the first time.

00:20:33 ◼   ► And we'll see how companies that are in his site react to that.

00:20:40 ◼   ► I think the idea there is you're trying to manage up, you're trying to show him what you

00:20:43 ◼   ► can do and how those are wins.

00:20:45 ◼   ► And that the, the thing that he thinks is, is the ultimate win for him is not.

00:20:51 ◼   ► And that there's something, some other way to declare victory and say, look at what

00:20:54 ◼   ► Apple did.

00:20:55 ◼   ► They brought this thing back and they did this thing there.

00:20:57 ◼   ► But you know what, if he, if he refuses to believe that, then Apple's just going to have

00:21:02 ◼   ► to deal with it because at some point they're, they're not going to be able to succeed with

00:21:07 ◼   ► whatever he wants them to do.

00:21:08 ◼   ► So you just got to manage it.

00:21:10 ◼   ► That's, that's why diplomacy and trying to be close to Trump and explain the business to

00:21:15 ◼   ► him because like, he doesn't understand Apple's business really, but he does fancy himself

00:21:20 ◼   ► a businessman.

00:21:20 ◼   ► So I think that that's the most important thing about, I talked to Tim last week is Tim can

00:21:26 ◼   ► like, let him in on the business secrets and the tough business decisions and make him feel

00:21:31 ◼   ► like, ah, yes, I understand what Apple's going through here.

00:21:33 ◼   ► And those are the decisions I would make too and get him on your side.

00:21:37 ◼   ► And you know, what happens is he's on your side for a while and then he goes offside and

00:21:42 ◼   ► Tim has to come back to the white house and be like, let's talk about this some more.

00:21:46 ◼   ► And, uh, you know, that's Tim's next four years.

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00:24:08 ◼   ► So, I think on last week's episode, we were talking about if we thought that Fortnite would be accepted

00:24:15 ◼   ► or rejected into the App Store.

00:24:17 ◼   ► We kind of put bets on that.

00:24:18 ◼   ► You said rejected.

00:24:20 ◼   ► I said accepted.

00:24:21 ◼   ► It's kind of nothing.

00:24:22 ◼   ► The answer is it isn't.

00:24:25 ◼   ► Is it in there?

00:24:27 ◼   ► No.

00:24:28 ◼   ► It's, what is it, like, what's the, Schrodinger's app?

00:24:34 ◼   ► Yeah, it's like Schrodinger's app is where we are at the moment.

00:24:36 ◼   ► I'm going to try and abridge this because the problem with the Fortnite story really is Tim Sweeney

00:24:44 ◼   ► in that he just says things and then people report it that way.

00:24:49 ◼   ► And so, like, a thing is reported and then it takes, like, 24 hours for the situation to actually make sense.

00:24:56 ◼   ► So, I'm going to try my best to give an abridged version of what happened.

00:24:59 ◼   ► So, they submitted the app last week, late last week, like Friday.

00:25:02 ◼   ► Then they were super unhappy that it hadn't been approved by Monday.

00:25:06 ◼   ► It's like, okay, dudes.

00:25:07 ◼   ► They submitted it.

00:25:09 ◼   ► Apple hadn't approved it.

00:25:10 ◼   ► Fortnite is now unavailable worldwide because it has not been approved.

00:25:16 ◼   ► even in Europe, even on the Alt Store and on the Epic Game Store because Epic tied the submissions together.

00:25:25 ◼   ► I found out from Riley Tester of Alt Store.

00:25:28 ◼   ► He's posted about this on Masterland.

00:25:30 ◼   ► You cannot submit an app for both App Store and notarization.

00:25:34 ◼   ► You kind of have to choose.

00:25:36 ◼   ► And what Epic wanted to do was they wanted to have one app rather than what they could have done,

00:25:42 ◼   ► which was a European version of Fortnite and an American slash worldwide version of Fortnite.

00:25:47 ◼   ► But Epic decided not to do this.

00:25:49 ◼   ► They submitted one app and this has kind of frozen it in place.

00:25:54 ◼   ► And Epic, I think, have also taken down Fortnite worldwide.

00:25:58 ◼   ► They're saying, and I understand this to a point,

00:26:01 ◼   ► that they're saying that if this app includes the information that's needed for the current season of Fortnite,

00:26:08 ◼   ► and so the one that is currently existing can't support that.

00:26:11 ◼   ► I don't know if that's true, but I know they're saying it.

00:26:13 ◼   ► And I could also imagine a world in which that was true.

00:26:16 ◼   ► But Epic say that they just want to submit one.

00:26:20 ◼   ► They have to just submit one version of every market that they're in if it's going to be available.

00:26:24 ◼   ► So essentially, at the moment, it's stuck.

00:26:27 ◼   ► Apple gave a statement and said,

00:26:29 ◼   ► we asked that Epic Sweden resubmit the app update without including the U.S. storefront on the App Store

00:26:36 ◼   ► so as not to impact Fortnite and other geographies.

00:26:38 ◼   ► We did not take any action to remove the live version of Fortnite from alternative distribution marketplaces.

00:26:43 ◼   ► That's a big signal to the European Union there from Apple.

00:26:47 ◼   ► Apple have also since sent a letter to Epic, which is, I think, Epic published,

00:26:51 ◼   ► stating that they're not willing to review the app until the litigation is over.

00:26:56 ◼   ► I think Apple referenced that they've told Epic this.

00:26:59 ◼   ► So as you would imagine, Epic have now gone to ask Judge Yvonne Gonzalez-Rogers

00:27:05 ◼   ► to force Apple to approve them worldwide.

00:27:08 ◼   ► Epic say that Apple in court have said they would welcome Fortnite back to the store

00:27:14 ◼   ► if they complied with Apple's guidelines.

00:27:16 ◼   ► Epic say they're complying with the guidelines.

00:27:19 ◼   ► Not having the transcript.

00:27:23 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:27:24 ◼   ► And not really wanting to take Epic at its word because Tim Sweeney says a lot of things.

00:27:31 ◼   ► As you pointed out, there's a lot of credulous reporting of things Tim Sweeney says.

00:27:36 ◼   ► Because I understand why.

00:27:38 ◼   ► He says exciting things and people who are writing paid very little to write on blogs

00:27:44 ◼   ► are like, oh, man, this is sweet.

00:27:46 ◼   ► And then they take it on face value instead of saying the Epic guy said another crazy thing

00:27:50 ◼   ► about Apple.

00:27:51 ◼   ► They say, Apple's going to do the, Epic guy says Apple is doing this thing.

00:27:56 ◼   ► And it's like, well, he says a lot of things.

00:27:57 ◼   ► So it is like, if they stood in court and said, we will welcome you back.

00:28:06 ◼   ► Because remember, they're banned because they broke the rules.

00:28:10 ◼   ► They misled Apple.

00:28:11 ◼   ► And Apple basically says, well, we're the law.

00:28:14 ◼   ► And if you break the rules, we'll kick you out of the app store.

00:28:17 ◼   ► That's what they said.

00:28:18 ◼   ► And they're only, the Swedish subsidiary is only in there because the EU basically protected

00:28:26 ◼   ► them and said, you have to let them in so you can sideload and all of that.

00:28:30 ◼   ► Like, okay, okay.

00:28:30 ◼   ► So, I mean, on one level, you could argue that they can ban them forever because Apple

00:28:39 ◼   ► is the law and they control everything.

00:28:41 ◼   ► We've seen how that's gone for them, but they could try that.

00:28:44 ◼   ► I think if they did say in court, oh, no, no, no, when this is all said and done, we'll let

00:28:50 ◼   ► them back in when they comply with all of our guidelines.

00:28:52 ◼   ► Then if they said that, then they kind of need to do that, right?

00:28:56 ◼   ► Like that, that's the bottom line here.

00:28:58 ◼   ► And if the version of Fortnite that's in the U.S. follows the U.S. rule and the places

00:29:07 ◼   ► it's elsewhere follow the rules elsewhere, they could do that.

00:29:10 ◼   ► But I will also say, is that what's going on here?

00:29:13 ◼   ► Or are they trying to have this thing go everywhere, right?

00:29:17 ◼   ► Like, or is it just in the EU and in the U.S.?

00:29:19 ◼   ► Are they trying, are they doing in-app purchases everywhere else?

00:29:22 ◼   ► Are they not releasing it everywhere else?

00:29:24 ◼   ► I don't know those details.

00:29:26 ◼   ► And again, they're sneaky.

00:29:28 ◼   ► Picks said that it was U.S.

00:29:29 ◼   ► It was for the U.S.

00:29:30 ◼   ► And then they said that they would then roll it out.

00:29:33 ◼   ► Well, this is originally when, when the thing happened, that they encouraged Apple to do

00:29:37 ◼   ► this worldwide so that they could release Fortnite worldwide.

00:29:39 ◼   ► Oh, sure.

00:29:40 ◼   ► Sure, sure.

00:29:41 ◼   ► Apple changed its policy everywhere to the U.S. policy.

00:29:43 ◼   ► That's what they want, which is, I believe they should do that too, but nevertheless.

00:29:46 ◼   ► Honestly, if they said it in the, I would go, if they said it in court, I would go to

00:29:51 ◼   ► the judge and say, they said they would do this.

00:29:52 ◼   ► We're complying.

00:29:53 ◼   ► Why are they not allowing it?

00:29:56 ◼   ► And see, take a flyer and see if she'll say, yeah, I ordered them to put it back in the

00:30:00 ◼   ► store.

00:30:00 ◼   ► Because it's, it's another case where Apple is being kind of petulant here.

00:30:05 ◼   ► But, you know, from Apple's standpoint, it's very much like, look.

00:30:08 ◼   ► A post on Darian Fireball from September 2021, which references an Apple statement to the

00:30:15 ◼   ► website protocol, which now no longer exists, but we're just going to take it as John did

00:30:19 ◼   ► the copy paste correctly.

00:30:20 ◼   ► As we said all along, we would welcome Epic's return to the App Store if they agree to play

00:30:25 ◼   ► by the same rules as everyone else.

00:30:26 ◼   ► Epic has admitted to breach of contract.

00:30:29 ◼   ► And as of now, there's no legitimate basis for the reinstatement of their developer account.

00:30:34 ◼   ► So, like, I have some vague memory of them saying something in court that was what Epic

00:30:40 ◼   ► is saying.

00:30:41 ◼   ► I actually can't find it.

00:30:42 ◼   ► But I'm going to take that as a, like, this is the kind of thing they're referring to.

00:30:45 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:30:46 ◼   ► But this is very much, this is very much Apple's, like, we can't do this because our rules that

00:30:53 ◼   ► we control and define preclude us from doing this.

00:30:55 ◼   ► It's very much their argument there, right?

00:30:57 ◼   ► Which is like, well, you know, our hands are tied by ourselves and, you know, we're handcuffed,

00:31:02 ◼   ► but we own the keys and the keys are in our hands and we can unlock the handcuffs.

00:31:06 ◼   ► But look, we're in handcuffs.

00:31:07 ◼   ► That's a little bit of what's going on here, too.

00:31:09 ◼   ► So, yeah, they can let him back in.

00:31:11 ◼   ► Of course they could.

00:31:12 ◼   ► I think that they're just being, their argument right now is, look, we're trying to overturn

00:31:17 ◼   ► this rule.

00:31:18 ◼   ► So, what we don't want to do is let Epic in and then have the rule be overturned and

00:31:23 ◼   ► then we kick Epic back out.

00:31:24 ◼   ► But the fact is, if Epic wants in and they said they'd let him in, the judge is probably going

00:31:30 ◼   ► to say, well, no, let him in.

00:31:32 ◼   ► And if, in the, because you can't, what the judge would probably say is, my guess is, you

00:31:38 ◼   ► can't delay, like, my thing, my ruling is immediate.

00:31:42 ◼   ► You can't delay behavior on the hope that you will eventually get a reversal somewhere

00:31:49 ◼   ► because legally we passed that point and I ruled and I restricted your behavior and that's

00:31:55 ◼   ► the rule in the U.S. right now.

00:31:56 ◼   ► So, you got to let him in.

00:31:58 ◼   ► It wouldn't surprise me if that ends up happening.

00:32:01 ◼   ► I, this is like one of these things where I don't even know where I stand on it anymore

00:32:09 ◼   ► because it's like, I understand where Apple's coming from, which is like, look, we told

00:32:15 ◼   ► you not to do this.

00:32:16 ◼   ► You did it, right?

00:32:18 ◼   ► We told you don't do it.

00:32:19 ◼   ► And the reason we told you don't do it is because we're not gonna have your app come back only

00:32:26 ◼   ► for us to be back in this situation again because Apple, you would assume, believes they can win

00:32:31 ◼   ► the appeal, right?

00:32:32 ◼   ► I guess.

00:32:33 ◼   ► Otherwise, why file the appeal?

00:32:35 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:32:35 ◼   ► Well, maybe you just do it for grandstander or gesture.

00:32:38 ◼   ► At least they want to win, right?

00:32:39 ◼   ► They're trying to win.

00:32:41 ◼   ► Yes.

00:32:42 ◼   ► And so, I understand from a point of like, well, we, you know, we're not going to let the app

00:32:47 ◼   ► back in on the grounds of this litigation while we're still going through this litigation.

00:32:53 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:32:54 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:32:54 ◼   ► That would be my argument if I was Apple's lawyer in responding to Epic's request to the judge

00:33:00 ◼   ► would be, while this is still being litigated, we would rather not.

00:33:04 ◼   ► And then the question is, does she say, let's just wait and see the result?

00:33:07 ◼   ► Or does she say, look, I ruled.

00:33:08 ◼   ► It's over.

00:33:09 ◼   ► Just as with my ruling, you can change your behavior about this if you win an appeal.

00:33:16 ◼   ► But in the meantime, it's settled.

00:33:18 ◼   ► This is a done deal.

00:33:19 ◼   ► Yes.

00:33:19 ◼   ► Make it happen.

00:33:20 ◼   ► And if Epic wants to, and if I were the judge, I'd probably say something like, if Epic wants

00:33:26 ◼   ► to take the risk that on appeal, this model will be removed and they're going to have to

00:33:31 ◼   ► remove their app from the app store, then they should be allowed in.

00:33:34 ◼   ► But they should be aware that that is, you know, this is still being contended at least,

00:33:38 ◼   ► even though it's the rule right now.

00:33:39 ◼   ► And, you know, you could, you could see that the, I think, I think ultimately I understand

00:33:44 ◼   ► that Apple kicked them out because they broke the rules.

00:33:46 ◼   ► I think the challenge now is that the rules have changed, not on Apple's, you know, choice,

00:33:52 ◼   ► but they've changed.

00:33:52 ◼   ► And what Epic wanted in this very specific case is the law right now.

00:33:58 ◼   ► And so you probably need to let them in.

00:34:02 ◼   ► I do think personally, they should just let, they should just let it go and just let them

00:34:08 ◼   ► back in and tell them whole story in a nutshell, though, Mike, I know personally, I think they

00:34:13 ◼   ► need to let it go.

00:34:14 ◼   ► Yes.

00:34:15 ◼   ► Yes.

00:34:15 ◼   ► I mean, yeah, we can apply that across the board to this.

00:34:18 ◼   ► I just think, I think it is perfectly valid for Apple to say fine.

00:34:22 ◼   ► But if we change these rules, you're changing it immediately.

00:34:27 ◼   ► Like, and we're, we're going to get you to agree to that because that is the rules, right?

00:34:31 ◼   ► We're, because like you're in, you cannot break the rules anymore.

00:34:34 ◼   ► You broke the rules and we kicked you out.

00:34:36 ◼   ► We'll let you back in.

00:34:37 ◼   ► But unlike other apps, okay.

00:34:40 ◼   ► Other apps that are doing this Kindle, right?

00:34:43 ◼   ► You can go to the Kindle book.

00:34:45 ◼   ► I bought a Kobo book from the, from the iOS app and it's using the old rules still.

00:34:51 ◼   ► Oh, it's using, I got a scare screen and then I was put to a generic page.

00:34:55 ◼   ► Although I admire, I admire the way they got around Apple's thing.

00:34:59 ◼   ► I got to a generic page, but the generic page, because I'm logged in has, here are books that

00:35:05 ◼   ► you've looked at recently.

00:35:06 ◼   ► And so of course the page I just came from is the number one book and then I can tap and

00:35:10 ◼   ► I can buy it.

00:35:11 ◼   ► But Amazon has already implemented this in the U S so you can tap and you go to the book page

00:35:18 ◼   ► and you say buy.

00:35:18 ◼   ► And then you go, you close the, the, or you switch back to a Kindle app and it's there.

00:35:23 ◼   ► It's, it's, it's, it's great.

00:35:24 ◼   ► I mean, it could be better because it could be an app, but it's great.

00:35:27 ◼   ► But that's just in the U S and so everywhere else in the world where this rule does not

00:35:33 ◼   ► apply, Kindle app doesn't do that.

00:35:36 ◼   ► It's written in the code.

00:35:37 ◼   ► It's like, if you're in the U S you can do this.

00:35:39 ◼   ► Otherwise do that.

00:35:40 ◼   ► The problem with Fortnite is Fortnite doesn't have a fallback mode for this, right?

00:35:47 ◼   ► They don't, they're not in any other store.

00:35:50 ◼   ► They're just in their alternative EU marketplace.

00:35:52 ◼   ► And that means there isn't a version of Fortnite right now.

00:35:55 ◼   ► I mean, there was back in the day, but like, do we think that, that they have built Fortnite

00:36:01 ◼   ► so that there's a switch they can easily flip to go from the thing that they've fought all

00:36:06 ◼   ► this time for, to the thing that they hate and tried to get around?

00:36:09 ◼   ► I don't believe so.

00:36:11 ◼   ► And that is a quandary for Apple, right?

00:36:14 ◼   ► Because everybody else, if, if the day comes where they say some, some court somewhere overturns

00:36:19 ◼   ► or, or, or stays this ruling, Amazon can just flip the switch in the U S and it'll go back

00:36:25 ◼   ► to the old behavior.

00:36:26 ◼   ► But, but, but, but Epic can't do that.

00:36:29 ◼   ► Epic doesn't have a, a prior mode to go back to is my guess.

00:36:34 ◼   ► And so what happens then, right?

00:36:37 ◼   ► Like what, what is Apple's assurance?

00:36:39 ◼   ► And that goes to what your point is, which is Apple would basically need to say the moment

00:36:45 ◼   ► this rule is not in a, in effect, you, you either switch it to, uh, comply or we remove

00:36:52 ◼   ► you from the store.

00:36:54 ◼   ► That's it.

00:36:54 ◼   ► You have to understand that that's what's going to happen because there's no trust between

00:36:58 ◼   ► these two companies.

00:36:59 ◼   ► So maybe, maybe Epic will be willing to do it because they certainly, certainly being in

00:37:04 ◼   ► the U S app store with the new rules would be a, uh, the clearest victory Epic has ever

00:37:10 ◼   ► gotten in this case.

00:37:12 ◼   ► We will see.

00:37:14 ◼   ► CarPlay ultra is a thing that is now, now exists.

00:37:20 ◼   ► So next generation of CarPlay, which was unbelievably at WWDC 2022, which I cannot believe was that

00:37:30 ◼   ► long ago, but it was, this was the version of CarPlay where essentially CarPlay was going

00:37:36 ◼   ► to take over every screen in the car.

00:37:40 ◼   ► So that would not just be the entertainment, but would also include the navigation cluster,

00:37:45 ◼   ► uh, like sort of the dial cluster, you know, showing your speed and stuff like that.

00:37:49 ◼   ► Everything kind of software that you could see in the car would be provided by Apple.

00:37:54 ◼   ► Um, when they announced this, it was like, Hey, here's a bunch of things that's happening.

00:37:59 ◼   ► It's coming soon.

00:38:00 ◼   ► And it's taken this amount of time and it seems to have been some tumult in the middle.

00:38:03 ◼   ► Um, it is next generation CarPlay is now CarPlay ultra ultra is finally launched in a shipping

00:38:09 ◼   ► car.

00:38:09 ◼   ► The Aston Martin DBX has it and previous Aston Martins within the last few years, uh, owners

00:38:16 ◼   ► can go to a dealer and have CarPlay ultra put into their car.

00:38:20 ◼   ► Like I think it's like a firmware update.

00:38:22 ◼   ► I'm expecting that has to happen to be driving your Aston Martin to your Aston Martin.

00:38:27 ◼   ► I mean, who are we kidding?

00:38:27 ◼   ► You're probably driving it there to be serviced at some point in the next week anyway.

00:38:31 ◼   ► So just go ahead and do that.

00:38:33 ◼   ► Doesn't seem like this is a, uh, uh, a product that launched the way that Apple wanted it to.

00:38:39 ◼   ► So I, I think it's closer because remember they were so light on specifics back then.

00:38:44 ◼   ► And I remember, I don't know if you remember this, you were, maybe this was when you were

00:38:48 ◼   ► traveling or maybe I just did this for the summer of fun, but we did the verticals.

00:38:53 ◼   ► And I did a segment with Sam Abu El-Samid, who's a car journalist about this three years

00:38:59 ◼   ► ago, almost.

00:39:00 ◼   ► And at the time, if you go back and listen to that interview at the time, we're like, how

00:39:05 ◼   ► is this going to work?

00:39:06 ◼   ► Because he said like the low level stuff that is like your tachometer and your speedometer

00:39:13 ◼   ► and stuff like legally that has to be running on a real time operating system.

00:39:19 ◼   ► And Apple's not building a real time operating system and loading it in partner cars, right?

00:39:23 ◼   ► Like that's not happening.

00:39:24 ◼   ► They have their own systems on there.

00:39:26 ◼   ► And I think if you go back to that conversation, one of the things that we speculated is, is this

00:39:33 ◼   ► going to be theming where the, the car firmware can accept a theme from the iPhone and say, okay,

00:39:42 ◼   ► now we're using red or whatever.

00:39:44 ◼   ► And now we're using this, you know, like not, and, and sophisticated theming of like, here's

00:39:49 ◼   ► what the, the needle looks like.

00:39:50 ◼   ► And here's what the dial looks like.

00:39:52 ◼   ► And here's how you want to do it.

00:39:54 ◼   ► And that was actually one of the theories back then because Apple's announcement was

00:39:58 ◼   ► so broad and it was like, oh, look, everything is car play.

00:40:02 ◼   ► And Sam was like, they can't do that.

00:40:05 ◼   ► Like how, how would they do that?

00:40:07 ◼   ► So this, to me, this, it feels like this Aston Martin demo that we got, and there's a great

00:40:13 ◼   ► top gear video that everybody should watch.

00:40:15 ◼   ► It was so good.

00:40:16 ◼   ► It gives you all the details about it.

00:40:17 ◼   ► As you watch a man, a British man sweat in a car that's in Palm Springs with the AC

00:40:23 ◼   ► off because he's recording a video, just a little side note.

00:40:26 ◼   ► I thought that was amazing.

00:40:27 ◼   ► He's like, oh, I can't turn on the AC right now.

00:40:29 ◼   ► Cause, and he's dying.

00:40:31 ◼   ► Uh, but it's great video, but like this feels like that highfalutin next generation car play

00:40:38 ◼   ► announcement of three years ago, meeting reality.

00:40:40 ◼   ► And what's happened over the last three years is Apple's ambitions meeting reality.

00:40:44 ◼   ► And it is things like what Sam said, it's, it's theming where you're, you're not able

00:40:49 ◼   ► to take complete control.

00:40:51 ◼   ► So you're, you're, some of the screens look like car play and may actually have some car

00:40:57 ◼   ► play in them, but the other parts of it legally have to be supplied by the car's operating system.

00:41:03 ◼   ► So they're like, there's an example on the top gear video where he's got the speedometer

00:41:06 ◼   ► and the tachometer and in the middle is Apple maps.

00:41:10 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:41:10 ◼   ► It's like, that's clearly something where there's a cutout where like this stuff is

00:41:14 ◼   ► coming from the car and this stuff is coming from, uh, the, from car play directly.

00:41:20 ◼   ► Whereas in other places you get like a setting for what is it?

00:41:24 ◼   ► The sound settings and, or the backup camera is a good example of this where there's what

00:41:30 ◼   ► they call punch through where Apple basically says, uh, we're not going to do that.

00:41:34 ◼   ► You know, your car interface goes here, right?

00:41:36 ◼   ► Like we're not doing this.

00:41:37 ◼   ► You do it.

00:41:38 ◼   ► Things are too specialized.

00:41:39 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:41:40 ◼   ► So it looks like what, what Apple and Aston Martin have done is like, it's bringing down

00:41:46 ◼   ► Apple down to reality of like what they're, what they're kind of doing is it's a little

00:41:50 ◼   ► more bespoke with a car manufacturer, which I think Sam Abu-El-Samid would probably have

00:41:55 ◼   ► said that that was always going to have to be the case where, you know, you can change the

00:41:59 ◼   ► themes, but like, I don't know if you noticed in the top gear video, he's like, well, first

00:42:03 ◼   ► time you connect a car to your phone, it takes a little while.

00:42:07 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:42:07 ◼   ► And what it's apparently doing is it's like saying, okay, this is an Aston Martin.

00:42:11 ◼   ► Here are the theme files, send the theme files into the Aston Martin so that we're all on

00:42:17 ◼   ► the same page.

00:42:17 ◼   ► And then he switches themes and the look like there's that one that looks very, very appley

00:42:22 ◼   ► where all of the needles are replaced with like little progress bars.

00:42:25 ◼   ► Cause that what you want is progress bars.

00:42:27 ◼   ► We love a progress bar when we're driving.

00:42:29 ◼   ► Sure.

00:42:30 ◼   ► Great.

00:42:30 ◼   ► Uh, instead of like the circular radial kind of interface, there's a, like a speedometer

00:42:35 ◼   ► that's more like a progress bar.

00:42:37 ◼   ► Okay.

00:42:37 ◼   ► But it's still like, they've still had to come to Aston Martin and work on the themes

00:42:43 ◼   ► together.

00:42:44 ◼   ► And the look is a combination.

00:42:46 ◼   ► I mean, the way, look, I saw somebody comment on that video and said that video is a pitch

00:42:51 ◼   ► to car makers is what that video is saying.

00:42:53 ◼   ► And they talk to the guy from Aston Martin, the designer who's like, Oh, it was such a great

00:42:58 ◼   ► opportunity to work with Apple because we have so much respect for Apple and having them work

00:43:02 ◼   ► with our brand to make beautiful things in our car is something that we really valued.

00:43:06 ◼   ► And I could see like, it's totally the message is come on.

00:43:11 ◼   ► Apple will work with you.

00:43:13 ◼   ► They're your partner.

00:43:14 ◼   ► They're making your thing more awesome.

00:43:16 ◼   ► And you still have some degree of control.

00:43:19 ◼   ► And it's just like three years later, I know that the car industry moves slowly and that's

00:43:23 ◼   ► part of it.

00:43:23 ◼   ► But it also feels like we're, we're getting down to the, the nitty gritty details of reality,

00:43:30 ◼   ► which is like some of the stuff Apple kind of dreamed about doing it.

00:43:34 ◼   ► It can't do, it has to work.

00:43:36 ◼   ► It has to get down and dirty with the people who built, who built the cars.

00:43:39 ◼   ► I think that's the difference between what Apple showed in 2022 and what we have now is I

00:43:45 ◼   ► genuinely believe that what Apple thought they were going to do was just download their chosen

00:43:53 ◼   ► UI onto cars.

00:43:55 ◼   ► And that was that.

00:43:56 ◼   ► But what they've had to actually end up doing is work independently and directly with car

00:44:02 ◼   ► makers to design something that feels good for the brand and include co-brand even on the

00:44:09 ◼   ► startup screen between the car manufacturer and Apple.

00:44:13 ◼   ► And you know what?

00:44:14 ◼   ► That is exactly how it should be.

00:44:15 ◼   ► That is exactly how it should be because the hubris to assume that the car makers would just

00:44:21 ◼   ► be like, go for it, you know?

00:44:23 ◼   ► Go for it.

00:44:24 ◼   ► This is like a thing, like Nilay Patel has been very focused on this with executives.

00:44:29 ◼   ► He gets car executives on his podcast, Dakota, and he asked them point blank and don't do it.

00:44:33 ◼   ► And I think it was Mercedes who said, why would we have another company take over our offerings?

00:44:40 ◼   ► Like, you know, our visuals.

00:44:41 ◼   ► Like, why would we give that to another company?

00:44:44 ◼   ► And that is the case.

00:44:45 ◼   ► And so you're right.

00:44:46 ◼   ► I think they were able to work with, like, to work directly with Aston Martin for whatever

00:44:55 ◼   ► reason they could get Aston Martin on board to do it first.

00:44:59 ◼   ► And they have decided that they're working with Aston to market this to other companies,

00:45:06 ◼   ► essentially, to be like how good this was.

00:45:08 ◼   ► I suspect some of it is that they were willing and that they're a pretty low volume, right?

00:45:14 ◼   ► And probably nimble in a way, right?

00:45:17 ◼   ► Just because they're so low volume that there's not a scope.

00:45:21 ◼   ► Like, these big car manufacturers, the scope is ridiculous.

00:45:23 ◼   ► But Aston Martin was like, yeah, yeah, we'll do it.

00:45:26 ◼   ► We'll be your pilot program.

00:45:27 ◼   ► And, you know, we'll take advantage of, I mean, what the designer said, we'll take advantage

00:45:31 ◼   ► of Apple being really hands-on with us.

00:45:33 ◼   ► And Apple probably learned a lot of stuff, too.

00:45:36 ◼   ► And they're very clearly marketing this to everybody else.

00:45:38 ◼   ► It does seem reasonable.

00:45:41 ◼   ► Like, again, if I'm a car manufacturer, the question is, do I want this?

00:45:47 ◼   ► And strangely enough, I think the answer is, it depends on how much you fancy yourself an

00:45:56 ◼   ► interface design company as a car maker, right?

00:45:59 ◼   ► Like, obviously, GM, don't get me started, GM has decided that they want complete control

00:46:08 ◼   ► and that their stuff is going to be better than Android phones or iPhones and that people

00:46:14 ◼   ► aren't going to want to connect CarPlay or Android Auto because they're going to make this

00:46:19 ◼   ► amazing thing that you're going to have to pay a monthly on-star fee for and that they're

00:46:23 ◼   ► not going to put those other things in their cars.

00:46:25 ◼   ► Okay.

00:46:25 ◼   ► I think there are a lot, I suspect strongly that there are a lot of car manufacturers who

00:46:29 ◼   ► are like, yeah, we have to do it, but we don't like it and we don't really care.

00:46:34 ◼   ► And we don't really think that our customers are buying our cars for our infotainment system.

00:46:39 ◼   ► So like if Apple wants to come and make a spiffy infotainment system that we can show

00:46:45 ◼   ► off that all iPhone users are going to blow, you know, be blown away by and like, great.

00:46:52 ◼   ► Like, and we can use their designers.

00:46:54 ◼   ► So we don't have to just lean on our designers because we, you know, we do it, but we don't

00:46:57 ◼   ► love it.

00:46:57 ◼   ► Like there are, because today car interfaces are full of touchscreens and, and, and screens.

00:47:03 ◼   ► Right.

00:47:03 ◼   ► I think there are a lot of car makers are like, they do it, but they don't like it and they

00:47:08 ◼   ► don't feel a point of pride and it's not what they focus on.

00:47:11 ◼   ► That's where Apple will have sway.

00:47:14 ◼   ► Right.

00:47:14 ◼   ► And, and, and, and example.

00:47:16 ◼   ► So they listed a whole bunch of partners back in the day.

00:47:19 ◼   ► They have not relisted them.

00:47:21 ◼   ► They, they said, and I've seen this misreported where people are like, oh, well they listed

00:47:26 ◼   ► Hyundai, Kia, and Genesis.

00:47:27 ◼   ► So I guess that's all that's left.

00:47:28 ◼   ► But the press release is very clear.

00:47:30 ◼   ► They're like, those are new partners in addition to partners previously announced.

00:47:34 ◼   ► So.

00:47:34 ◼   ► But the problem is the, the partners previously announced list includes companies that are

00:47:39 ◼   ► definitely not doing it.

00:47:40 ◼   ► That are definitely not doing it.

00:47:41 ◼   ► Right.

00:47:41 ◼   ► And that's why Apple's not releasing that list.

00:47:44 ◼   ► That's why.

00:47:45 ◼   ► That's why.

00:47:46 ◼   ► But, but what I would say is the Korean manufacturer is there and, and, and, you know, Hyundai and

00:47:53 ◼   ► is Genesis is the luxury Hyundai line and Kia is like 35% owned by Hyundai, but those, so it's,

00:48:00 ◼   ► it's kind of like, they're obviously kind of, of a, of a thought about this.

00:48:04 ◼   ► They're, they're of a kind.

00:48:05 ◼   ► They seem to be one of these companies.

00:48:08 ◼   ► I mean, I've seen some of those, those Hyundais and Kias, like they went all in on screens,

00:48:13 ◼   ► but having driven some of them as rental cars, I can tell you the interfaces on them, you know,

00:48:18 ◼   ► their car interfaces, they're, they're from a car manufacturer.

00:48:21 ◼   ► They're, they're not great.

00:48:22 ◼   ► They're fine, but they're not great.

00:48:24 ◼   ► I don't think they're a point of pride for Hyundai and Kia.

00:48:27 ◼   ► So if you're Hyundai and Kia and you say, oh, Apple wants to roll in and make our experience

00:48:33 ◼   ► on iPhones, like super awesome.

00:48:36 ◼   ► And Apple II for everybody who owns an iPhone, you say, yes, maybe, especially if, if you

00:48:41 ◼   ► get the guy from Aston Martin's like, no, no, it's good.

00:48:43 ◼   ► It's good.

00:48:44 ◼   ► We worked on them.

00:48:45 ◼   ► They know the score.

00:48:46 ◼   ► Now they've learned what we control and what they control.

00:48:49 ◼   ► So that's where I think this is, is that you're going to see car, car companies that find value

00:48:56 ◼   ► in partnering with Apple, probably because they don't find a lot of value in spinning up a giant

00:49:03 ◼   ► team to design, you know, world-class, like GM fancies itself capable of doing saying, well,

00:49:10 ◼   ► why would we not work with Apple?

00:49:11 ◼   ► Like the Aston Martin guys, like, why would we not work with Apple?

00:49:13 ◼   ► People love their products and people love, you know, are familiar with their interfaces

00:49:17 ◼   ► and why don't we just work with them and they want to work with us?

00:49:19 ◼   ► So great, let's do it.

00:49:21 ◼   ► And iPhone users get a better interface.

00:49:23 ◼   ► I think the problem though is you still have to, though, as the car company, right?

00:49:27 ◼   ► You still have to.

00:49:28 ◼   ► And so like, you've got to do all the work and then you've also got to hand over it to

00:49:33 ◼   ► Apple if you want to.

00:49:34 ◼   ► Now, I, as a customer, I would want this because I watched the Top Gear video.

00:49:38 ◼   ► It's like, yeah, that's what I want.

00:49:40 ◼   ► I want the car UI to look like that because I like that UI.

00:49:43 ◼   ► I mean, I use Apple's products because I like the way that their software looks.

00:49:46 ◼   ► That looks like good software.

00:49:48 ◼   ► It looks well thought out.

00:49:50 ◼   ► Like the way they, I really liked the screen that they had where it was like all map with

00:49:54 ◼   ► like a bunch of overlays, like that you could see through.

00:49:56 ◼   ► It's like that looks fantastic for the like the screen that's above the steering wheel.

00:50:01 ◼   ► Like just all of it looked really good to me.

00:50:04 ◼   ► And they're adding a bunch of things in.

00:50:06 ◼   ► It looks like standby widgets are in CarPlay Ultra.

00:50:09 ◼   ► They're not in regular CarPlay, I don't think.

00:50:12 ◼   ► And yeah, it looked really nice.

00:50:15 ◼   ► Like I would want this, but it is, I understand why some car companies are a bit hesitant to

00:50:22 ◼   ► it because like, well, we've got to do this anyway.

00:50:24 ◼   ► Why do we then just give it all over?

00:50:26 ◼   ► And I think this was a much better showing of this product than anything Apple has done

00:50:32 ◼   ► previously on their own.

00:50:34 ◼   ► Like being able to show, like have this product shown in an Aston Martin show, the co-branding

00:50:39 ◼   ► and get Aston Martin to talk about it.

00:50:41 ◼   ► This would have been a really good WWDC session, you know, like to have a car company come out

00:50:48 ◼   ► and be like, hey, look, this is what this is.

00:50:51 ◼   ► We're why are we doing this?

00:50:52 ◼   ► We think it looks really good, et cetera, et cetera.

00:50:55 ◼   ► Like, yeah.

00:50:56 ◼   ► And it goes down to we spoke about the punch out punch UI for some stuff.

00:50:59 ◼   ► But like Apple have designed and are designing like bespoke climate control screens.

00:51:04 ◼   ► Like they are doing as much.

00:51:06 ◼   ► They're doing a lot.

00:51:07 ◼   ► Like it's not just like, you know, Speedos and CarPlay stuff.

00:51:11 ◼   ► Like they're trying, it seems, to do as much as they can.

00:51:14 ◼   ► And it even still, like if you have like a, they show it in the Aston Martin, right?

00:51:19 ◼   ► You have a physical dial that you turn and Apple UI comes up on the screen and shows the, say,

00:51:24 ◼   ► the volume going down or whatever.

00:51:26 ◼   ► Like it's, it's well integrated.

00:51:28 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:51:28 ◼   ► All the stuff that doesn't require legally to be instantaneous from the car, like climate control

00:51:34 ◼   ► and volume and stuff like that.

00:51:36 ◼   ► Apple's built a UI for it.

00:51:38 ◼   ► My favorite thing when I was watching that video is you're looking at a CarPlay screen

00:51:42 ◼   ► that's got the temperature, the setting in the, in the little sidebar.

00:51:46 ◼   ► And I'm like, oh, CarPlay now knows what the, like, it's like, ah, good.

00:51:51 ◼   ► Right?

00:51:51 ◼   ► Like all that stuff is in there in this CarPlay and it's good.

00:51:53 ◼   ► So, I mean, you're right.

00:51:55 ◼   ► Like Kia has to still, Hyundai still has to build their own UI, but is it a point of pride

00:52:01 ◼   ► for them?

00:52:01 ◼   ► Yeah, of course.

00:52:02 ◼   ► I, I, I think that that's, I think that's it.

00:52:05 ◼   ► And I think a lot of those car makers having been in those cars, they're doing it because

00:52:09 ◼   ► they have to.

00:52:09 ◼   ► I think, I think Kia and Hyundai, their point of pride is that they're putting big screens

00:52:12 ◼   ► in a bunch of these cars and it looks awesome, but the software is not their thing.

00:52:17 ◼   ► And Apple comes in and says, we'll make it, we'll help you make it look even more awesome

00:52:21 ◼   ► for all of our, you know, pointed, all the research, all of our wealthier drivers who

00:52:28 ◼   ► are much more inclined to buy a car with CarPlay than not.

00:52:32 ◼   ► I think a bunch of car makers will be like, yes, let's do it.

00:52:35 ◼   ► And a bunch won't.

00:52:36 ◼   ► And that's where we'll be.

00:52:38 ◼   ► And, and you're going to end up with three things.

00:52:39 ◼   ► You're going to end up with CarPlay ultra cars.

00:52:41 ◼   ► You're going to end up with CarPlay cars and you're going to end up with no CarPlay cars.

00:52:45 ◼   ► And that's where we're going to be.

00:52:46 ◼   ► And, you know, but, but I looked at this and I look, Joe Steele, our friend pointed out,

00:52:52 ◼   ► like it, there's still a bunch of really bad CarPlay screens just in general, like the settings

00:52:57 ◼   ► app where, where it's like just a horizontal bar where like on the far right is on or off

00:53:03 ◼   ► and on the far left is what it is.

00:53:05 ◼   ► And it's like, yeah, CarPlay needs a, a refresh in general.

00:53:10 ◼   ► A lot of those controls are like just ported in from the iPhone and they're not good and

00:53:14 ◼   ► they're not great on a car touchscreen and they should be better.

00:53:16 ◼   ► Absolutely grant you that.

00:53:18 ◼   ► But with that said, I'll say I looked at this and thought this looks pretty cool.

00:53:22 ◼   ► I like the idea of having my iPhone be a, a key participant in what my car interface looks

00:53:28 ◼   ► like, even if it's not controlling at all, it's a key player in it because my iPhone is

00:53:33 ◼   ► very important to my life and I have lots of apps on it that I care about.

00:53:36 ◼   ► And GM saying, forget it, you're going to use our software and you're going to like

00:53:40 ◼   ► it.

00:53:40 ◼   ► It's like, well, no, because you don't have overcast and you're never going to get overcast.

00:53:44 ◼   ► And I, I like, I just don't, I just don't want that.

00:53:47 ◼   ► I want my iPhone matters more to me than your software, but you know, a lot of car companies

00:53:54 ◼   ► are going to do this.

00:53:54 ◼   ► And I, as an iPhone person, I look at it and I think that's pretty cool.

00:53:58 ◼   ► I like it.

00:53:58 ◼   ► I mean, I, could it be better?

00:54:00 ◼   ► Yes, but I like it.

00:54:01 ◼   ► It looks good.

00:54:02 ◼   ► It's a nice proof of concept.

00:54:03 ◼   ► I don't know because of the internal politics, how this will play at other car makers, but

00:54:07 ◼   ► I'm interested in the fact that that top gear video lets Apple and Aston Martin make their

00:54:13 ◼   ► case about why it's actually pretty nice and is not, it's not a complete abdication of your

00:54:20 ◼   ► role.

00:54:21 ◼   ► Like they put the design by Aston Martin, like on the speedometer and they've got the dual

00:54:25 ◼   ► branding when CarPlay connects.

00:54:27 ◼   ► And like, it, that is clearly a message sent to automakers that like, we want to work

00:54:32 ◼   ► with you.

00:54:33 ◼   ► We want to build the themes based on your design specs.

00:54:36 ◼   ► So there are some Apple-y themes, but there are also some very Aston Martin-y themes.

00:54:39 ◼   ► Like, I bet they make those designers feel so good.

00:54:42 ◼   ► They're like, come out to Apple Park.

00:54:44 ◼   ► Like, we'll spend some time together.

00:54:47 ◼   ► And you can scale it.

00:54:48 ◼   ► There aren't that many car makers, right?

00:54:51 ◼   ► So you, that is a, we don't see, oh, app developers are out there going, God, these

00:54:55 ◼   ► guys.

00:54:56 ◼   ► But it's true.

00:54:56 ◼   ► Like there are so few car makers.

00:54:58 ◼   ► There's like 20, you know, like that realistically going to do this.

00:55:00 ◼   ► So like literally come out to the coast.

00:55:03 ◼   ► We'll get together.

00:55:04 ◼   ► Have a few laughs.

00:55:05 ◼   ► Like, we'll drive together.

00:55:07 ◼   ► We'll go.

00:55:08 ◼   ► Send, yeah.

00:55:09 ◼   ► Send your whole team to Cupertino and we'll work on, or wherever they want to do this.

00:55:15 ◼   ► And we'll work on this together.

00:55:17 ◼   ► And then, and then we will go for a drive or we will send our people to you.

00:55:21 ◼   ► We'll, we'll send our people to Germany, to Volkswagen or BMW.

00:55:24 ◼   ► Oh no, that's not as enticing, surely, right?

00:55:27 ◼   ► Whatever they like, whatever they like.

00:55:28 ◼   ► You want to come to California and then do a California CarPlay road trip?

00:55:31 ◼   ► Let's do it.

00:55:32 ◼   ► We're going to go down the coast.

00:55:33 ◼   ► We're going to go on highway one.

00:55:34 ◼   ► We're going to, we're going to go out to Palm Springs where, you know, turn off the AC

00:55:39 ◼   ► and you'll die in the car.

00:55:40 ◼   ► So keep it on.

00:55:40 ◼   ► This is where Apple can play.

00:55:42 ◼   ► This is where, you know, the stuff that we'd hoped they would do more, right?

00:55:46 ◼   ► Play to your strengths, which are every designer in the world looks to you as of interest, right?

00:55:53 ◼   ► And that you are able to say to designers, just why don't you want to come hang out with

00:55:59 ◼   ► us for a week, two weeks, three weeks?

00:56:02 ◼   ► And it's like, yeah, they do.

00:56:04 ◼   ► Like that, that is a thing, right?

00:56:06 ◼   ► Like the designers will want to come to Apple Park.

00:56:09 ◼   ► Yes.

00:56:09 ◼   ► And, and, and it will be an ongoing relationship that you have with Apple designers.

00:56:14 ◼   ► Because Apple so often is viewed as like, you do our work for us, right?

00:56:20 ◼   ► By developers in general, right?

00:56:22 ◼   ► It's like, you're, you're lucky and they do stuff.

00:56:24 ◼   ► They have, they go out and they do outreach and all that, but it's very much generally not

00:56:29 ◼   ► thought of as Apple courting you.

00:56:31 ◼   ► In this case, Apple is going to court car makers and they're going to make them feel wanted.

00:56:38 ◼   ► And, and it's, if I have one thing that I walked away with from that, that, um, Top Gear video,

00:56:44 ◼   ► it's the guy, the designer from Aston Martin saying, it was such a privilege to work with

00:56:52 ◼   ► all the brilliant people at Apple who are thinking a lot about car design, like we are.

00:56:58 ◼   ► And we got to collaborate on something that used Apple's incredible design skills there, you

00:57:04 ◼   ► know, his words, but it was a sales pitch.

00:57:05 ◼   ► Apple's incredible legacy of, of user experience design and us who know exactly what our car

00:57:13 ◼   ► brand is and what it stands for and who our users are, our customers.

00:57:16 ◼   ► And we work together to make this thing happen.

00:57:20 ◼   ► And it's beautiful.

00:57:20 ◼   ► Like that is, I would say a powerful sales pitch to those who want to hear it, right?

00:57:26 ◼   ► Like it is, it, we'll see how it works.

00:57:30 ◼   ► But like, I thought that it was a pretty great sales pitch because it honors the expertise of

00:57:35 ◼   ► the car maker, but it also sells the most popular, you know, highest profile consumer brand in the

00:57:43 ◼   ► world that's packed with fairly wealthy users who care about car play.

00:57:48 ◼   ► It is a pretty good pitch, right?

00:57:51 ◼   ► Which is like, we're not asking you to throw your stuff away, but work with us.

00:57:55 ◼   ► And we're going to make an awesome experience in your cars that you're going to love and be

00:58:00 ◼   ► happy with and be proud of.

00:58:01 ◼   ► It's not just going to be what Apple does.

00:58:03 ◼   ► And I think if there's one thing that we could, we could contrast with 2022, right?

00:58:08 ◼   ► Mike is that was sort of like Apple's going to solve your car by throwing it away and

00:58:13 ◼   ► replacing it with Apple.

00:58:14 ◼   ► And although Sam that summer was like, I don't know how they could do that.

00:58:19 ◼   ► I think that's what's changed is the pitch is not Apple's going to throw out your car and

00:58:25 ◼   ► turn it into an Apple car.

00:58:26 ◼   ► Now it's Apple is amazing and wants to work with you to make a team up, a collab where we

00:58:33 ◼   ► make the most awesome thing that is your brand plus Apple, this beloved brand working together.

00:58:38 ◼   ► That's the sales pitch.

00:58:39 ◼   ► It's like Aston X Apple, you know, like Aston by Apple.

00:58:43 ◼   ► That's what we're doing here.

00:58:44 ◼   ► Do you not think, I mean, that's, that's what I thought of when that boot screen, it was

00:58:47 ◼   ► like Aston Martin plus Apple.

00:58:49 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:58:49 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:58:50 ◼   ► That's it.

00:58:50 ◼   ► That's what they're doing.

00:58:51 ◼   ► That's, and that's what they're trying to do.

00:58:53 ◼   ► So I think, you know, I, I think although some companies have probably fallen off that

00:58:58 ◼   ► list as their, as their, uh, they got the details or as their priorities changed, their

00:59:02 ◼   ► strategy, strategy changed.

00:59:04 ◼   ► I think them adding Hyundai, Kia and Genesis, Genesis to the list is interesting because that's,

00:59:09 ◼   ► that suggests to me that that's a done deal, that they have a, they have a software update

00:59:13 ◼   ► coming to a platform update.

00:59:15 ◼   ► These are cars that have gone through the same treatment that Aston has gone through.

00:59:18 ◼   ► Like these are, these are companies that have actually done it rather than it just be the

00:59:22 ◼   ► existing list of carpline companies, which is not all.

00:59:25 ◼   ► No.

00:59:26 ◼   ► And we don't even know what it's an old list and we don't even know who's still on it.

00:59:30 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:59:30 ◼   ► But that would be, you know, if, if you can get, and, and here's the bottom line, like

00:59:34 ◼   ► I hear a lot of people really like the Ionic, right?

00:59:36 ◼   ► EV line.

00:59:37 ◼   ► Right.

00:59:37 ◼   ► Well, throw in there that now it's going to also do carplay ultra and those giant wide screens

00:59:44 ◼   ► that are on there, which are not on the Aston Martin, right?

00:59:46 ◼   ► The Aston Martin's a little more conservative than that, but like, and that all gets like

00:59:50 ◼   ► taken over by carplay and it, and for, as a driver, it doesn't get taken over by carplay

00:59:56 ◼   ► in like a weird way where Apple doesn't really understand your car.

00:59:59 ◼   ► Every car is going to be laid out by Apple and Kia or Hyundai or Genesis to be like right for

01:00:08 ◼   ► that screen configuration and all that.

01:00:11 ◼   ► I think that's really appealing to turn to like take a, to, you elevate the existing

01:00:16 ◼   ► experience with this extra experience.

01:00:19 ◼   ► I think that that could be really interesting.

01:00:20 ◼   ► So it's been a joke for the last three years, but, uh, carplay ultra, I think it's got some

01:00:28 ◼   ► real potential, but I think it's not going to be as big as Apple, uh, hoped it would be.

01:00:34 ◼   ► And that Apple has had to probably scale back their, uh, their objectives or potentially

01:00:40 ◼   ► the people who are working on this always knew this is how it was going to be.

01:00:42 ◼   ► But the marketers went a little overboard.

01:00:45 ◼   ► That also is a thing that Apple has been doing lately.

01:00:49 ◼   ► We have some real-time follow-up on, uh, Apple and Epic.

01:00:53 ◼   ► Thanks to Jack and Discord, uh, Judge Yvonne Gonzalez-Rogers has issued a, I don't, a letter,

01:00:59 ◼   ► I don't know what they call them, a brief, I don't know, saying, Apple is fully capable of

01:01:03 ◼   ► resolving this issue without further briefing or hearing.

01:01:05 ◼   ► However, if the parties do not file a joint notice that this issue is resolved and this

01:01:09 ◼   ► court's intervention is required, the Apple official who is constantly responsible for

01:01:14 ◼   ► ensuring compliance shall personally appear at the hereby, at the hearing hereby set for

01:01:18 ◼   ► Tuesday, May 27th at 9 a.m.

01:01:20 ◼   ► You know, I'm going to, I'm just going to say that somebody is going to show up for that

01:01:25 ◼   ► hearing and they're going to say, the reason we're doing this is not your ruling.

01:01:28 ◼   ► It's because of their prior behavior in the store and that they, they violated agreements

01:01:32 ◼   ► and we don't have trust with them.

01:01:34 ◼   ► Uh, I hope they don't because I think they should probably just, like we said, let it go.

01:01:40 ◼   ► But, um, their behavior currently suggests that they're going to show up.

01:01:45 ◼   ► And let me tell you, that judge is going to be real mean to them.

01:01:49 ◼   ► Eat your Wheaties that day, Apple guy.

01:01:53 ◼   ► Eat your Wheaties.

01:01:54 ◼   ► Get ready.

01:01:55 ◼   ► If somebody responsible at Apple is listening to the show, I think that'd be a good idea.

01:01:59 ◼   ► Look what's already happened.

01:02:00 ◼   ► Do you want more, uh, things entered into the legal system?

01:02:06 ◼   ► Don't, don't do this.

01:02:07 ◼   ► Just say, fine.

01:02:09 ◼   ► Okay.

01:02:10 ◼   ► It can come back.

01:02:11 ◼   ► The risk is maybe if you let them in, if you're ordered to put them in, maybe you can't kick

01:02:18 ◼   ► them out later.

01:02:18 ◼   ► Right.

01:02:20 ◼   ► I mean, if, if, if it's judge, this is the lesson that Apple didn't learn for this last

01:02:25 ◼   ► thing, which is if you fight it, you, you were given the opportunity to set more reasonable,

01:02:30 ◼   ► uh, guidelines.

01:02:32 ◼   ► And when you refused, the judge just turned off all your guidelines.

01:02:36 ◼   ► Do you want that to happen again?

01:02:38 ◼   ► Basically six months later, Apple app store review is destroyed.

01:02:44 ◼   ► It doesn't exist anymore.

01:02:46 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:02:46 ◼   ► Do you want that?

01:02:48 ◼   ► That seems like a, about, so yeah, step one, it would be just let this go because you'll

01:02:54 ◼   ► still be able, if you win your appeal, you'll still be able to deal with it.

01:02:56 ◼   ► Why are you dragging your feet on this?

01:02:58 ◼   ► Just let it go.

01:02:59 ◼   ► What's the harm.

01:02:59 ◼   ► And if you get, if you, you know, if on appeal, this gets stayed or overturned, you get to

01:03:06 ◼   ► just say to Epic, turn it off in the next 24 hours or you're out.

01:03:09 ◼   ► Right.

01:03:10 ◼   ► Like you get to do that.

01:03:11 ◼   ► If you fight this, you could be making it even worse for yourself.

01:03:14 ◼   ► And the tone of this judge's letter is very clear.

01:03:16 ◼   ► Um, she does not want any of your, more of your BS.

01:03:21 ◼   ► She's, you know, she's tired of your BS.

01:03:24 ◼   ► You know, she's done with you.

01:03:25 ◼   ► So like, it really is in your best interest now to just find a way, get right.

01:03:32 ◼   ► A piece of paper that everybody signs, right.

01:03:34 ◼   ► That like you're fine.

01:03:36 ◼   ► As long as the rules are this way, if they change, you need to change.

01:03:39 ◼   ► Cause this, I just, I think it behooves Apple to not ever go.

01:03:44 ◼   ► Go back into a room with that judge.

01:03:45 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:03:47 ◼   ► You don't make her more angry.

01:03:49 ◼   ► She already is.

01:03:50 ◼   ► She is big time mad.

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01:05:41 ◼   ► Rumor round up time.

01:05:44 ◼   ► Mark Ehrman is reporting that vision OS three could see a feature that allows users to scroll

01:05:50 ◼   ► content with their eyes.

01:05:52 ◼   ► I have no idea how this works when I tracking is a thing.

01:05:56 ◼   ► It sounds uncomfortable too.

01:06:01 ◼   ► Like what am I like flicking with my eyes?

01:06:03 ◼   ► Like, no, I, I don't know what this is.

01:06:06 ◼   ► I'm intrigued to see what I have.

01:06:09 ◼   ► I have, I have some degree of faith in Apple's designers, interface designers on vision OS too.

01:06:16 ◼   ► Cause I think they've done a pretty good job that this is probably better than the description

01:06:23 ◼   ► would make it appear.

01:06:24 ◼   ► because I saw this and I, I mean, Mike, I literally rolled my eyes and then was worried that it would

01:06:32 ◼   ► go up, down, back and forward, I guess, in that scenario.

01:06:38 ◼   ► Like you're, you're moving.

01:06:40 ◼   ► So my guess, my guess is it has something to do with like a, a, a scroll, a scroll region.

01:06:46 ◼   ► Like, you know how you got like scroll bars and like little scroll arrows back in the day

01:06:51 ◼   ► before you had a, like a two, like, like a, a scroll wheel or, or trackpad scrolling.

01:06:56 ◼   ► That's my guess is that there is a scroll target somewhere.

01:07:00 ◼   ► And if you look at it, it scrolls and that's what it is.

01:07:05 ◼   ► Cause what I do not want is some weird gesture where I'm reading a webpage and I'm going,

01:07:09 ◼   ► just moving my eyes up while I'm touching.

01:07:14 ◼   ► I don't want that.

01:07:15 ◼   ► I don't want that.

01:07:16 ◼   ► So that's my guess off the top of my head here is that there'll be like a little set of arrows

01:07:22 ◼   ► somewhere or, you know, on the, on the scrollable item where you'll be able to look.

01:07:26 ◼   ► And it'll like light up and, and, and scroll it a little bit.

01:07:29 ◼   ► Maybe it's even like page down or maybe it's, uh, you know, attention-based where you look

01:07:35 ◼   ► at it and it starts to scroll and then you look, although the problem there is that you

01:07:38 ◼   ► don't know how much to scroll if you're not looking at the content.

01:07:41 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:07:43 ◼   ► Or right.

01:07:44 ◼   ► Cause the way it should be is like, it is on the Mac and the iPad, right?

01:07:47 ◼   ► It's like on the Mac with a trackpad, I should be able to do something or make a gesture

01:07:52 ◼   ► while I'm looking at content and go, you know, and, and just kind of like move it and scroll

01:07:56 ◼   ► it.

01:07:56 ◼   ► That's the way to do that.

01:07:57 ◼   ► So I struggle with this one, like moving my eyes to move content.

01:08:01 ◼   ► Just.

01:08:02 ◼   ► I'd wondered if maybe there was like some kind of hand movement that you make and then the

01:08:09 ◼   ► eyes are in control, but I don't even know if that makes any sense.

01:08:12 ◼   ► Like I, I don't, just cause I can't conceive of it.

01:08:15 ◼   ► I, I, I know what you're, I agree with what you're saying.

01:08:17 ◼   ► That's the way to do it.

01:08:17 ◼   ► I just don't know if that's the way they're going to do it.

01:08:20 ◼   ► And I, and I just can't get it in my head.

01:08:21 ◼   ► I don't like the idea of my eyes picking up something and my eyes picking up something

01:08:26 ◼   ► and moving it somewhere else.

01:08:27 ◼   ► Like I, I, I don't know.

01:08:31 ◼   ► Well, okay.

01:08:31 ◼   ► Again, but again, I think that I've learned is that sometimes the descriptions are not doing

01:08:38 ◼   ► justice to the feature.

01:08:39 ◼   ► And I would like to have a little more faith.

01:08:41 ◼   ► I mean, and that's just a vision OS problem in general, right?

01:08:44 ◼   ► That like, it is a hard operating system to explain.

01:08:47 ◼   ► Yes, that's right.

01:08:48 ◼   ► And I can't imagine that the people who designed vision OS, which is a pretty impressive piece

01:08:52 ◼   ► of work would build something that requires bizarre eye movements, right?

01:08:57 ◼   ► Like I have a hard time believing that.

01:08:59 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:08:59 ◼   ► Over the weekend, Mark Gurman and Drake Bennett at Bloomberg published a huge story that details

01:09:06 ◼   ► kind of the history of Apple intelligence and how we ended up where we are.

01:09:10 ◼   ► I want to get some key details from the article, but I recommend reading it.

01:09:14 ◼   ► There's a lot going on in there that is just, it's like interesting, kind of like soap opera-y

01:09:20 ◼   ► kind of feel.

01:09:21 ◼   ► Feature-y.

01:09:21 ◼   ► It's a business week feature.

01:09:23 ◼   ► So it's a lot of details that we've already heard Mark Gurman report, but it's being put

01:09:28 ◼   ► in a kind of a feature story context.

01:09:30 ◼   ► And then there's more kind of soapy individual, right?

01:09:34 ◼   ► Like a lot of what Mark reports generally is like, this feature is being worked on and

01:09:39 ◼   ► this thing is going to be built and revealed next year and all of that, the people said.

01:09:43 ◼   ► Where there's stuff like John, Gene, Andrea didn't get on with the rest of the executives,

01:09:47 ◼   ► right?

01:09:48 ◼   ► Which is like, I believe that that's true, but like, it's not really a thing that he talks

01:09:52 ◼   ► about otherwise.

01:09:53 ◼   ► That's right.

01:09:53 ◼   ► Right.

01:09:54 ◼   ► The personal stuff is less forward in his normal reporting, but it comes out in this feature.

01:10:00 ◼   ► But I'll break down a few things.

01:10:01 ◼   ► A lot of this is like, yeah, of course.

01:10:04 ◼   ► Right.

01:10:04 ◼   ► But it's in here.

01:10:05 ◼   ► So it's interesting that it's in here in some form of record.

01:10:08 ◼   ► Apple intelligence wasn't even an idea before ChatGPT launched.

01:10:13 ◼   ► And John, Gene, Andrea believed that customers were not looking for chatbots.

01:10:16 ◼   ► I feel like that alone, like that could have been his downfall of like, oh, you really didn't

01:10:23 ◼   ► see this, right?

01:10:24 ◼   ► Like, you know, you are our guy.

01:10:25 ◼   ► And I'm expecting, was advocating inside of Apple that they shouldn't build something,

01:10:31 ◼   ► right?

01:10:31 ◼   ► And like, he's absolutely wrong.

01:10:34 ◼   ► This story makes it clear that he looked at chatbots and listed all the negatives, right?

01:10:42 ◼   ► He said, they're dumb.

01:10:44 ◼   ► They get it wrong.

01:10:45 ◼   ► There's questionable value.

01:10:48 ◼   ► Like, and you can list them all off because they're still true.

01:10:53 ◼   ► Like all the liabilities of chatbots are still true.

01:10:57 ◼   ► There are lots of things that are wrong with chatbots, but the fatal mistake was there

01:11:02 ◼   ► was no anticipation of the upside.

01:11:04 ◼   ► And I think it goes back to if you worked in machine learning for a long time and you see

01:11:09 ◼   ► these chatbots, when you've been working on these bespoke models that do various things

01:11:14 ◼   ► and somebody else is just like, yeah, we just did a whole, just, you just type to it and

01:11:18 ◼   ► it gives you responses.

01:11:19 ◼   ► You probably look down on it, right?

01:11:21 ◼   ► You're probably like, come on, we're doing all this highfalutin stuff over here and you're

01:11:26 ◼   ► just building a chatbot that is wrong a bunch of the time.

01:11:29 ◼   ► That seems stupid.

01:11:30 ◼   ► And was like, we're not interested in that.

01:11:33 ◼   ► That's not a thing we want to pursue.

01:11:35 ◼   ► And that was the mistake because as true as it is that all of those things about chatbots

01:11:40 ◼   ► are bad, people still were like, oh, this is really interesting.

01:11:45 ◼   ► And they did dumb stuff with them, but they also did great stuff with them.

01:11:49 ◼   ► And the right approach at that moment, easy for us to say with hindsight, but the right approach

01:11:53 ◼   ► was to say, how do we use this technology?

01:11:57 ◼   ► Which is interesting.

01:11:58 ◼   ► Are there ways we could apply this in what we do?

01:12:02 ◼   ► And like, it could, somebody could have probably, somebody probably did say, this would actually

01:12:08 ◼   ► really be great for, for Swift programming for Xcode because people were, that's one of the

01:12:13 ◼   ► things that, that LLMs are actually really great for, you know, vibe coding, et cetera.

01:12:17 ◼   ► But like, they just poo-pooed it, but they're like, oh, it's not good enough for Siri.

01:12:21 ◼   ► It's not good enough for Siri.

01:12:23 ◼   ► It makes mistakes.

01:12:23 ◼   ► It's not good enough for Siri.

01:12:24 ◼   ► Well, the system that's so reliable, you know?

01:12:27 ◼   ► I know.

01:12:28 ◼   ► Well, this, yeah, but the, the, it required the illusion organizationally that Siri was

01:12:33 ◼   ► not terrible, right?

01:12:34 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:12:34 ◼   ► Because they were busy swimming to Hawaii or whatever.

01:12:38 ◼   ► Anyway, I'll give a quote from the article, according to employees, the chatbot that the

01:12:41 ◼   ► company has been testing internally has made significant strides over the past six months

01:12:45 ◼   ► to the point that some executives see it on par with recent versions of ChatGPT.

01:12:49 ◼   ► Don't know if I necessarily buy that, but I'm happy to hear that they are advancing it.

01:12:56 ◼   ► I've got to think, I mean, one of the things that I'm skeptical of is people who have bought

01:13:02 ◼   ► into the, into the narrative that Apple, because Apple is behind on AI, Apple doesn't get it and

01:13:10 ◼   ► can't get it because everything that I see is that it's actually, there are so many players

01:13:14 ◼   ► in AI because you can spin up a group and build.

01:13:19 ◼   ► And, you know, I keep bringing, bringing up DeepSeek, but like, I feel like DeepSeek really

01:13:22 ◼   ► showed that the bar is not high, that, that there's not a big barrier here to entry.

01:13:28 ◼   ► And that if Apple has the will and the money and the people, which is, those are ifs, that

01:13:34 ◼   ► I think that, that them building pretty good models is not an impossibility.

01:13:40 ◼   ► It's not like, oh, well, Apple missed it and they're never going to be able to get there.

01:13:44 ◼   ► Now, this story suggests that there are lots of other cultural problems that there are

01:13:48 ◼   ► people who don't really believe in it and that people that, you know, hiring people

01:13:52 ◼   ► who want to do this is, is, is a challenge.

01:13:54 ◼   ► And there are lots of issues culturally, which we could all guess, right?

01:13:57 ◼   ► It's, we could all guess that from observing what has been happening on the outside.

01:14:01 ◼   ► But I, I am not willing to write off Apple's ability to say we actually need a really good

01:14:09 ◼   ► LLM and put a lot of effort into building a good LLM.

01:14:14 ◼   ► I think it's possible.

01:14:16 ◼   ► Like, I think it's possible they could do a good image generator.

01:14:19 ◼   ► It's not what's in image playgrounds.

01:14:21 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:14:21 ◼   ► I think it's possible.

01:14:22 ◼   ► I just don't know if I buy the speed.

01:14:24 ◼   ► I just don't know if I buy the speed.

01:14:26 ◼   ► Oh yeah.

01:14:27 ◼   ► Is it like it now?

01:14:28 ◼   ► And also on par with recent versions of chat B2, that's one of the problems, right?

01:14:32 ◼   ► Is that all of these LLMs are moving so quickly.

01:14:35 ◼   ► Like, is that recent version like six months ago or a year ago or is it today?

01:14:40 ◼   ► And also like if you, if you are building something internally that is of that quality,

01:14:45 ◼   ► you are not taking into account what OpenAI is building internally, which is superior to

01:14:51 ◼   ► what is currently shipping.

01:14:52 ◼   ► But yeah, I would say, I would say I like that line about it being better because one

01:15:03 ◼   ► of the things that I think is not being talked about enough is one of the things Apple needs

01:15:08 ◼   ► to talk about at WWDC is that their, their models are better, right?

01:15:14 ◼   ► Everybody's so focused on Apple announcing new features.

01:15:16 ◼   ► And I know that this is weird because we haven't been in an Apple intelligence world before,

01:15:20 ◼   ► but like one of the ways Apple intelligence gets better is that they use new models that

01:15:25 ◼   ► are better, right?

01:15:26 ◼   ► Like that's part of this is standing up on stage and saying, look at how much better our

01:15:30 ◼   ► model is now.

01:15:31 ◼   ► And maybe even making a commitment that we're going to ship, you know, we're going to ship

01:15:35 ◼   ► a new updated model every three months or every six months.

01:15:37 ◼   ► Like you're going to keep on seeing the benefit of this.

01:15:39 ◼   ► That would go a long way to at least expressing that you're, you're on the case here, right?

01:15:44 ◼   ► Because, because right now there, we're, I think on iPhone still using a model that was

01:15:51 ◼   ► built last summer, right?

01:15:53 ◼   ► So I, I, there's some hope there, but I think, I think the truth is it's going to take a look.

01:16:00 ◼   ► I wrote a piece on, on six colors last week where I likened it.

01:16:04 ◼   ► And I know I've done this on a podcast, maybe even this podcast.

01:16:07 ◼   ► That scene in Apollo 13, where they're, they're dealing with the explosion on the spaceship

01:16:11 ◼   ► and to get a handle on it, Ed Harris's character says, okay, let's look about this.

01:16:19 ◼   ► Let's consider this from a perspective of status.

01:16:22 ◼   ► What do we have on the spacecraft?

01:16:23 ◼   ► That's good.

01:16:24 ◼   ► Which is like a real shocker moment.

01:16:26 ◼   ► Cause it's like, look, we need to stop behaving as if this is a normal situation.

01:16:30 ◼   ► This is a potential disaster.

01:16:32 ◼   ► Let's list our assets, right?

01:16:34 ◼   ► Let's, what do we have that's working?

01:16:36 ◼   ► And that's, I wrote that piece because like, that's what's happened when, you know, Craig

01:16:42 ◼   ► Federighi walks in, when they reorg, when they put Rockwell in charge of Siri, like their first

01:16:50 ◼   ► step is to be like, well, what, what can we even announce at WWDC?

01:16:54 ◼   ► And, and some of the stuff that they're doing, it is going to take a year or two.

01:16:58 ◼   ► They have to do, they have to reorg.

01:16:59 ◼   ► They have to change culture.

01:17:01 ◼   ► It's not all going to be there at WWDC.

01:17:03 ◼   ► It's not.

01:17:04 ◼   ► And, and if Apple ever even has a chance of catching up in AI, it's going to take a year

01:17:08 ◼   ► or two at least, right?

01:17:09 ◼   ► It is.

01:17:10 ◼   ► That's just it.

01:17:10 ◼   ► But they can show some positive developments.

01:17:13 ◼   ► And one of them really is like, is your model better?

01:17:17 ◼   ► Have you made improvements on your model?

01:17:19 ◼   ► Are you committed to making more improvements on your model?

01:17:21 ◼   ► Because the problem with Apple sort of announcing a feature in June and then shipping it in September

01:17:26 ◼   ► and then it doesn't, it stays unchanged for a year is, uh, AI models are not, are moving

01:17:33 ◼   ► too fast for that.

01:17:34 ◼   ► You need to, you need to be able to say we're committed to improving our models.

01:17:38 ◼   ► So we'll see, we'll see what they say about that.

01:17:40 ◼   ► Cause I think that that could be a big thing is it's not just like we have new features of

01:17:43 ◼   ► Apple intelligence.

01:17:44 ◼   ► It's also our models are better.

01:17:46 ◼   ► Now we are, we have spent a year making our models much better and we'll also let you use

01:17:52 ◼   ► other people's models, right?

01:17:53 ◼   ► That, that, that's what I want to see them say.

01:17:55 ◼   ► I want them to be like, our model is better and you can now use Gemini and ChatGPT and

01:18:01 ◼   ► Claude or what, you know, whatever, whatever.

01:18:03 ◼   ► Well, this report says that the focus of WWDC this year is to show upgrades to the existing

01:18:09 ◼   ► currently shipping set of features, adding in some smaller new features like an AI optimized

01:18:14 ◼   ► battery management tool and a virtual health coach into the fitness app.

01:18:19 ◼   ► It is not expected that we see pretty much anything of the delayed features, even though they

01:18:25 ◼   ► continue to work on them.

01:18:27 ◼   ► Because as Bloomberg are saying, Apple is shifting focus internally now to only really talk about

01:18:33 ◼   ► and show off features that they're confident will ship within a few months.

01:18:38 ◼   ► This is to me, the most important sentence in this entire feature, because what this says

01:18:44 ◼   ► is, this is the fallout from Apple intelligence being over-promised.

01:18:49 ◼   ► And this is the argument I think I would have probably made internally as well, which is

01:18:54 ◼   ► we're Apple.

01:18:55 ◼   ► We can announce things whenever.

01:18:57 ◼   ► So why are we shooting ourselves in the foot?

01:19:01 ◼   ► Like announce a bunch of stuff that you're confident you can ship by the end of the year

01:19:05 ◼   ► or, or by September or October.

01:19:09 ◼   ► And then if you've got that snazzy new feature ready to go in your 0.3 update or whatever,

01:19:16 ◼   ► you know what?

01:19:17 ◼   ► You, you do a press release.

01:19:20 ◼   ► You make a big thing.

01:19:21 ◼   ► People talk about it.

01:19:22 ◼   ► You know, the day you drop the developer beta, everybody's talking about it.

01:19:27 ◼   ► when the iPhone comes out, ship it in December.

01:19:29 ◼   ► Yeah, show it off at the iPhone event.

01:19:29 ◼   ► Like you've got to give me yourself more time.

01:19:31 ◼   ► And say, this is coming in December.

01:19:31 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:19:32 ◼   ► And then in January, say, here's an amazing thing we're doing in March or whatever.

01:19:37 ◼   ► Especially if you start shipping, having two different iPhone events, it gives you an

01:19:41 ◼   ► opportunity to do that as well.

01:19:42 ◼   ► So like you don't need to, you don't need, if you've got something that's not going to

01:19:47 ◼   ► come until March, just don't talk about it.

01:19:49 ◼   ► You can talk about it later.

01:19:50 ◼   ► People pay attention when Apple announces new features.

01:19:53 ◼   ► They, they do.

01:19:54 ◼   ► It's okay to do it that way.

01:19:56 ◼   ► And, and, and it won't blow up in your face like it did last year.

01:20:00 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:20:00 ◼   ► I mean, and you know, you can, you can sit here and be like, well, this is how it always

01:20:04 ◼   ► goes, right?

01:20:05 ◼   ► That Apple show off in June and it ships in September.

01:20:08 ◼   ► Well, increasingly over the years, less and less actually ships in September.

01:20:11 ◼   ► And, and I think, as you say, this is the, I mean, we're all wondering it, right?

01:20:17 ◼   ► All of us that pay any attention to this, especially those of us in the media are wondering

01:20:21 ◼   ► like, what is, what is the result of Apple essentially lying to the media, right?

01:20:27 ◼   ► Like in some form or like deceiving or misleading, at least some people did.

01:20:31 ◼   ► Well, the result is we can't be caught doing that again because every, you know, everyone's

01:20:38 ◼   ► expecting it.

01:20:40 ◼   ► Everyone is going into WWDC this year and every briefing, there will be at least one

01:20:44 ◼   ► person that says, can you show me that?

01:20:46 ◼   ► Right.

01:20:46 ◼   ► Everything that happens.

01:20:47 ◼   ► Sure.

01:20:48 ◼   ► Can you show me?

01:20:49 ◼   ► Do you want to show me?

01:20:49 ◼   ► And you may see them say, this will ship this year, which is not something that they did

01:20:55 ◼   ► before.

01:20:56 ◼   ► Right.

01:20:56 ◼   ► They'll say, this will ship later this year.

01:20:57 ◼   ► This will ship in the fall.

01:21:00 ◼   ► And that's, that's them sending a message saying, we have confidence this is going to

01:21:03 ◼   ► ship.

01:21:04 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:21:04 ◼   ► Whereas before it was sort of like, come like that series section.

01:21:08 ◼   ► Remember, even as I'm watching it, I'm like, wow, there's a lot of future tense here, right?

01:21:13 ◼   ► Like, oh, we will do this in the future.

01:21:15 ◼   ► And it's like, well, when, when, when?

01:21:17 ◼   ► So if they're more specific about when they're planning to ship stuff, which they, they do that

01:21:22 ◼   ► all the time.

01:21:23 ◼   ► They say later, you know, later this year or this fall or this winter, they can be specific

01:21:29 ◼   ► and then they also need to show things.

01:21:30 ◼   ► But I think it's the right thing to do, especially with something where you're not clear.

01:21:34 ◼   ► I mean, AI already is really uncertain.

01:21:37 ◼   ► And then on top of that, you've got the uncertainty of Apple's AI group going through dramatic changes

01:21:45 ◼   ► and new management and making new decisions with different policies and all of that.

01:21:50 ◼   ► So like, it's not the right time to have great confidence in what you're going to be doing

01:21:56 ◼   ► next spring.

01:21:56 ◼   ► So maybe just be a little more constrained.

01:22:00 ◼   ► That's it's okay.

01:22:01 ◼   ► People will be disappointed that there isn't a giant vision of the future at WWDC for Apple

01:22:08 ◼   ► intelligence.

01:22:09 ◼   ► But I think everybody would understand if you stand on stage and say, we launched the last

01:22:14 ◼   ► year, we learned a lot.

01:22:15 ◼   ► There was some stuff we couldn't ship.

01:22:17 ◼   ► We're working on it.

01:22:19 ◼   ► We've got confidence in the stuff we are shipping.

01:22:21 ◼   ► We improved our model.

01:22:22 ◼   ► We've got some new deals with third party providers.

01:22:26 ◼   ► Like, I think people will understand that.

01:22:28 ◼   ► And then it lets you, if you have some amazing feature that's going to blow people away for

01:22:32 ◼   ► next spring, you announce it next spring.

01:22:35 ◼   ► That's fine.

01:22:36 ◼   ► It's okay.

01:22:37 ◼   ► I think it could be interesting to hear them say like, you know, like they go through a

01:22:40 ◼   ► bunch of things like, and we're going to have another AI event later in the year.

01:22:45 ◼   ► Right.

01:22:45 ◼   ► Like an app intelligence event later in the year, you know, like set it up.

01:22:50 ◼   ► And I think they will, they will find some way to set up the fact that they are continuing

01:22:56 ◼   ► to work on this stuff without showing us what they're working on because they can't show

01:23:02 ◼   ► us what they're working on because they'll get into that trap again.

01:23:06 ◼   ► So they have to kind of like signify that there's more than just, we've made image

01:23:11 ◼   ► playgrounds a little bit better.

01:23:12 ◼   ► We've made notification summaries a bit better, you know, et cetera, et cetera.

01:23:17 ◼   ► Right.

01:23:17 ◼   ► Like Gemini is here now, you know, that kind of thing.

01:23:21 ◼   ► So going back to this report, going back to the beginning, kind of the beginning of this

01:23:25 ◼   ► pre-last year, Apple had immediately tried to fit generative AI features into Siri, but

01:23:30 ◼   ► it wasn't working.

01:23:31 ◼   ► The old infrastructure did not play well with new stuff, which is like, oh, because a lot

01:23:36 ◼   ► of the things that we're seeing, they're kind of like outside, right?

01:23:39 ◼   ► Like image playgrounds is outside.

01:23:41 ◼   ► You don't ask for that.

01:23:42 ◼   ► It's its own thing where like, if you think about it, shouldn't it all be in the thing?

01:23:46 ◼   ► And then similarly, I find this interesting, Apple is now trying to separate Apple intelligence

01:23:51 ◼   ► and Siri in their marketing.

01:23:52 ◼   ► Now, the way that Bloomberg sets it up is that like Siri is about marketing Apple intelligence.

01:23:58 ◼   ► I think it works both ways at the moment.

01:24:00 ◼   ► Works both ways.

01:24:00 ◼   ► Like they're both, both brands are undermining the other thing.

01:24:05 ◼   ► Apple has an AI infrastructure team based in Zurich that are working on a new LLM to power

01:24:11 ◼   ► Siri.

01:24:11 ◼   ► I don't know if this is, I don't know if the result of that is the thing that we mentioned

01:24:15 ◼   ► earlier, right?

01:24:16 ◼   ► The chat bot thing.

01:24:17 ◼   ► I don't know about that.

01:24:19 ◼   ► It doesn't make, I don't know.

01:24:20 ◼   ► And then I think maybe the biggest little piece of information I think that got the biggest

01:24:25 ◼   ► play is that it is possible that in the EU, customers will be able to have a choice of

01:24:30 ◼   ► voice assistant, which is interesting, but that feels rough.

01:24:36 ◼   ► I think that is the thing that could genuinely have the bigger impact, like more than like of

01:24:44 ◼   ► customers actually doing it, right?

01:24:46 ◼   ► Like you could imagine, like if you think of the, let's say tens of millions of people

01:24:51 ◼   ► that are using ChatGPT, that it would, you'd open the app and it'd prompt like, hey, would

01:24:56 ◼   ► you like to be able to access ChatGPT by just asking your iPhone?

01:25:01 ◼   ► That is a compelling thing that I could imagine people doing.

01:25:04 ◼   ► And I also wonder what the implementation of that is.

01:25:07 ◼   ► Well, I mean, I can't imagine this is the case, but would these systems be able to do things

01:25:12 ◼   ► that are on the iPhone?

01:25:13 ◼   ► Probably not, right?

01:25:14 ◼   ► You just be like, what is that?

01:25:16 ◼   ► So be interested to see if or what that is.

01:25:19 ◼   ► Yeah, if they can build the model a little bit better, one of the things that this describes

01:25:23 ◼   ► is that there's sort of two parts of Siri.

01:25:25 ◼   ► There's like the information content part, and then there's like the basic tasks on the

01:25:29 ◼   ► device part.

01:25:29 ◼   ► That's your timers and volume and stuff like that.

01:25:32 ◼   ► I wonder, because you can already, it already is trying to judge whether it should send that

01:25:38 ◼   ► to ChatGPT or not.

01:25:39 ◼   ► If you have that setting turned on, you actually, and have it, it'll either ask you or you can just

01:25:45 ◼   ► say, don't even ask me.

01:25:46 ◼   ► And I've definitely, I've set that up and sometimes it just chooses really badly about

01:25:52 ◼   ► what it thinks it can handle.

01:25:54 ◼   ► But like, if you partner with more third parties and you improve the, or really like reduce the

01:26:02 ◼   ► scope of what Siri thinks it can do, you're kind of there.

01:26:07 ◼   ► It's not quite the same as just running the ChatGPT app or whatever, but it would allow

01:26:15 ◼   ► allow Apple to sort of let the third party AIs handle the world knowledge and give it a

01:26:24 ◼   ► chance.

01:26:25 ◼   ► Then as it improves Siri, it could like take more of that stuff over.

01:26:29 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:26:30 ◼   ► It's a tough question, you know, and, and, and yeah, and it's not great for Apple if you

01:26:35 ◼   ► can just throw it out completely.

01:26:36 ◼   ► But also it's not great for customers depending on how it's implemented.

01:26:39 ◼   ► Cause you do also want to just set a timer and have it be the timer in the clock app.

01:26:43 ◼   ► Right.

01:26:43 ◼   ► You don't want it to be like, I don't know, a ChatGPT timer.

01:26:48 ◼   ► Like you don't, you don't really want that.

01:26:50 ◼   ► So I don't know.

01:26:51 ◼   ► That's, that's the, one of the challenges of this is that voice assistants are used for

01:26:55 ◼   ► lots of different things.

01:26:56 ◼   ► Yep.

01:26:57 ◼   ► And yeah, yeah.

01:26:59 ◼   ► I can imagine a company like perplexity doing a decent job of it if they, cause you know,

01:27:03 ◼   ► they just did that thing where they're tying into a bunch of like device stuff, right?

01:27:08 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:27:08 ◼   ► Maybe everybody does it that way.

01:27:10 ◼   ► And, and honestly, the Siri, uh, intense stuff, app intense, the whole idea is that assistants

01:27:19 ◼   ► can control your apps, right?

01:27:22 ◼   ► Like, so in the long run, this might be less of an issue, but yeah, even in the short run,

01:27:26 ◼   ► there are things that the perplexity app can do on your system.

01:27:31 ◼   ► Should we finish up with an Ask Upgrade question?

01:27:33 ◼   ► We've run a bit long again today.

01:27:35 ◼   ► There's so much stuff going on.

01:27:36 ◼   ► So let's finish up with an Ask Upgrade question, but we've got to get some lasers if we're going

01:27:40 ◼   ► to do that.

01:27:40 ◼   ► Because this one felt somewhat related and I thought it was an interesting thing to touch

01:27:46 ◼   ► on.

01:27:46 ◼   ► It comes from John who says, with all of the tumult happening with Siri, AI, and the constant

01:27:51 ◼   ► failure in Apple software across all of its platforms, with holding back the, uh,

01:27:55 ◼   ► tribalizing hardware, which we spoke about last time, why does nobody question Craig Federighi's

01:27:59 ◼   ► culpability and leadership at the company?

01:28:01 ◼   ► Tim deserves a lot of blame for company priorities and issues, but shouldn't Craig, a potential

01:28:06 ◼   ► future CEO, also feel the heat for the years of misfires related to the operating system and

01:28:11 ◼   ► app development, uh, organizations such as slow underdeveloped features, bugginess, and

01:28:16 ◼   ► delays?

01:28:16 ◼   ► All right.

01:28:18 ◼   ► Not to question the questioner, but, um, first off, I, I'm not sure Craig Federighi is seen

01:28:25 ◼   ► as a possible future CEO.

01:28:27 ◼   ► I mean, you could make an argument in that he's been there for a long time and he's important.

01:28:31 ◼   ► Right.

01:28:32 ◼   ► So they're getting everyone kind of, everyone in the C-suite falls into the bucket, potentially.

01:28:37 ◼   ► I guess.

01:28:38 ◼   ► And then, and then second, I know what John is getting at here, but why does no one question

01:28:45 ◼   ► Craig Federighi's, like no one, it happens.

01:28:48 ◼   ► It happens a lot.

01:28:49 ◼   ► I feel like we've answered this question before, by the way, but I'm just going to say it again.

01:28:52 ◼   ► It does happen.

01:28:53 ◼   ► People do bring it up.

01:28:55 ◼   ► Nobody really knows what is his responsibility and not, uh, for example, some of the AI stuff,

01:29:01 ◼   ► it turns out maybe it was John G and Andrea's issue and not really Craig's issue after all.

01:29:06 ◼   ► And I think a broader issue is that in our community, people like Craig Federighi because it's, he's

01:29:13 ◼   ► perceived as being one of us in a lot of ways that he is kind of nerdy.

01:29:17 ◼   ► He understands computers and computer programming at a level that many other Apple executives

01:29:23 ◼   ► do not.

01:29:24 ◼   ► He can speak the same language as a lot of the people who are, who are listening to this podcast

01:29:29 ◼   ► and who read Apple blogs and all of that.

01:29:31 ◼   ► He's sort of one of us in that way.

01:29:33 ◼   ► And so, and, and he also has, you know, a gift of bonding with the people at events.

01:29:41 ◼   ► You see lots of pictures with him.

01:29:42 ◼   ► He's very charismatic.

01:29:44 ◼   ► He's charismatic.

01:29:45 ◼   ► He's also, he comes across as being kind of aw shucks and modest, like he's just a regular

01:29:49 ◼   ► guy.

01:29:49 ◼   ► There are lots of those things that make, I think our community predisposed to give him

01:29:54 ◼   ► a pass and assume that it's other stuff.

01:29:56 ◼   ► Also, it's a black box and we don't really know.

01:29:58 ◼   ► He could be terrible at his job or he could be great at his job or he could be simply doing

01:30:03 ◼   ► his best at a difficult job that there's really nobody else to do it.

01:30:07 ◼   ► And he stepped up and done it and he's done okay, even though he's got his strengths and

01:30:12 ◼   ► weaknesses, right?

01:30:12 ◼   ► There are lots of different ways it could be true inside.

01:30:15 ◼   ► I think if he was a disaster, we would have heard about it from the inside.

01:30:18 ◼   ► And I think that that's part of it too.

01:30:20 ◼   ► But I do think he gets a shield because he's, he's perceived as being kind of like somebody

01:30:25 ◼   ► who gets us or who's kind of like us.

01:30:27 ◼   ► And also when we first met him, he was terrified on stage.

01:30:32 ◼   ► And I think people were rooting for him.

01:30:34 ◼   ► And I think as he's gotten better on stage, I think there's like a factor of it.

01:30:38 ◼   ► That's I knew that guy when he was nervous on stage.

01:30:40 ◼   ► I think that's a little bit of it too.

01:30:42 ◼   ► So, but, but definitely he, he needs to be part of the criticism.

01:30:46 ◼   ► The challenge is like with the AI thing.

01:30:49 ◼   ► You don't actually know, like how, what's he trying to do?

01:30:52 ◼   ► What's he allowed to do?

01:30:54 ◼   ► Um, I think you, given how the software is behind the hardware, he, he deserves some criticism

01:31:02 ◼   ► because he's ultimately responsible for the software.

01:31:06 ◼   ► I just, I, I, I, I come back to the fact of like, it's the question, it's the, it's the

01:31:12 ◼   ► Luca Maestri and the GPUs question, which is how much of this is Craig make doing the best

01:31:18 ◼   ► with what he's given to, to work with.

01:31:21 ◼   ► Like if you ask Craig Federighi, could you really hire more people so that your software

01:31:27 ◼   ► is less buggy?

01:31:28 ◼   ► He might say, no, we like who we've got.

01:31:30 ◼   ► He might privately say, yeah, it kills me that I can't hire more people.

01:31:35 ◼   ► We don't know.

01:31:36 ◼   ► We don't know.

01:31:37 ◼   ► But, uh, so I, I think we're predisposed to like him and it's hard to tell details about

01:31:43 ◼   ► any, everybody wants to single out people and say like, you fire that guy.

01:31:47 ◼   ► Um, but as stories like that Bloomberg story show you, we don't know the details on the inside.

01:31:54 ◼   ► And I, I do legitimately believe that if somebody was a nightmare, especially somewhere on the

01:31:58 ◼   ► software side, it would have gotten back through the grapevine.

01:32:02 ◼   ► And I don't think it has.

01:32:05 ◼   ► No, my, my kind of feeling on this is going back to what I said a couple of weeks ago.

01:32:08 ◼   ► Like I never get into that, like fire this person, fire that person.

01:32:13 ◼   ► Cause I think ultimately it's, it's kind of a silly thing to, to suggest from the outside.

01:32:19 ◼   ► It's very soap opera-y.

01:32:21 ◼   ► You don't, you don't know the details.

01:32:22 ◼   ► You're just having fun with the soap opera.

01:32:23 ◼   ► It's really hard to do this stuff.

01:32:25 ◼   ► Like it's really hard.

01:32:26 ◼   ► Software is really hard.

01:32:27 ◼   ► Hardware is really difficult.

01:32:28 ◼   ► It's all difficult because anyone that makes things knows how delays occur, knows how

01:32:34 ◼   ► things can go wrong.

01:32:36 ◼   ► Like it's just anybody that makes anything like it, this is a very, this is a thing that

01:32:42 ◼   ► happens a lot.

01:32:43 ◼   ► My current thing on questioning Tim Cook is essentially crimes is the, is the problem.

01:32:53 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:32:53 ◼   ► Well, it's high level leadership stuff that we can see.

01:32:56 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:32:57 ◼   ► Right.

01:32:57 ◼   ► That is visible.

01:32:58 ◼   ► It's when a company gets to the point of all of that stuff spilling out in court and like,

01:33:06 ◼   ► it's the, the cultural shift that I feel like Apple has been on comes from one person, right?

01:33:13 ◼   ► Like again, it's like the one person thing of like, you know, you never know, really know what

01:33:19 ◼   ► any of these people want to do.

01:33:21 ◼   ► And the CEO has to be the, like the person who makes the ultimate, we're going this way,

01:33:25 ◼   ► we're going that way.

01:33:25 ◼   ► You've got this, you've got that.

01:33:26 ◼   ► Like it does kind of go back and comes from the CEO.

01:33:30 ◼   ► But like my feeling is just, it just appears to me from the documents that came out in the

01:33:35 ◼   ► court case that like, there is a cultural leadership problem that is at Apple and it takes huge cultural

01:33:47 ◼   ► change to fix that.

01:33:51 ◼   ► That kind of change is most felt if the actual leader of the business changed like that, that

01:33:58 ◼   ► would see the biggest change.

01:34:00 ◼   ► I am not really suggesting that Tim Cook should be fired.

01:34:04 ◼   ► I just now have my own personal case for, and we went through it, I think in really good

01:34:10 ◼   ► detail, like, oh, it might be a good idea to start making public shifts and like suggestions

01:34:19 ◼   ► that somebody else is coming and like, we're going to work, like kind of what Bob Iger's

01:34:23 ◼   ► doing really of like, hey, I'm leaving at some point.

01:34:28 ◼   ► And so I'm, I'm bringing up my person and you know, Iger's out there and he's stirring these

01:34:34 ◼   ► three people left, right and center and they're having bake-offs and seeing who wins.

01:34:38 ◼   ► Right.

01:34:38 ◼   ► But like that might be the right move for Apple now, if they're going to attempt to try and

01:34:44 ◼   ► culturally change things.

01:34:45 ◼   ► But that's where I come from anyway, but I just think that all of that stuff that came

01:34:50 ◼   ► out in the court case was just too ugly for me to suggest that the company isn't going

01:34:55 ◼   ► through some kind of like crisis right now.

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01:35:08 ◼   ► We always want your questions.

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01:35:36 ◼   ► This week, we're going to talk about Formula One, Monaco, and Apple Maps,

01:35:40 ◼   ► which is a really interesting, weird thing to occur in the world of Apple.

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01:35:59 ◼   ► Until then, say goodbye, Justice Snow.

01:36:01 ◼   ► Goodbye, Mike Hurley.