00:00:00 ◼ ► from relay this is upgrade episode 561 for april 28th 2025 today's show is brought to you by fitbod
00:00:17 ◼ ► and vitally my name is mike hurley i'm joined by jason snell hi jason snell from my garage this
00:00:24 ◼ ► is jason snell brought to you this week by tea like like every week i would say i just wanted to start
00:00:31 ◼ ► off the show by saying thank you for all the nice messages people who wrote and to tell me
00:00:34 ◼ ► that they're happy that i'm back and i thought it was very sweet but we don't have time for all that
00:00:57 ◼ ► in san francisco i'll tell you that they are everywhere in san francisco uh i think that's
00:01:02 ◼ ► somebody else no no i think i think they are in phoenix too um my mom lives so far outside their
00:01:09 ◼ ► range that it's not an option there okay um and you know i don't live in san francisco and so when i
00:01:15 ◼ ► drive in san francisco we just went to a giants game on saturday and you know you can't you can't
00:01:19 ◼ ► see you know can't go through san francisco without seeing a waymo it's funny um lauren and i were
00:01:24 ◼ ► talking about how obviously these waymos are pretty good because they have to deal with the worst uh
00:01:33 ◼ ► because in san francisco i mean you've got people who don't know not only is it just regular city
00:01:37 ◼ ► driving but you've got a lot of people who are not from san francisco with like tourists or people
00:01:41 ◼ ► from the outlying area who've come into the city and they don't know where they're going or what
00:01:45 ◼ ► they're doing we had people going across like multiple lanes to like oh i'm in the far right
00:01:51 ◼ ► lane but i need to go to fisher and swarth so i need to be in the left lane and then they're making
00:01:54 ◼ ► this diagonal and and as we watch one of those bad drivers uh lauren said well you know the waymos
00:01:59 ◼ ► handle it and they and they do the waymos handle it i feel like san francisco is an interesting
00:02:05 ◼ ► test bird because i think it might be a like a relative an interesting rarity in a city of its
00:02:12 ◼ ► like connectedness i think people want to drive there because it's like exciting to drive in san
00:02:18 ◼ ► francisco in certain parts of it where the hills are where you might not otherwise drive if you're a
00:02:23 ◼ ► tourist i don't know i don't know i don't recommend it but uh but uh the answer is no i would love to try
00:02:30 ◼ ► it sometime but that would require me to be somewhere in the city wanting to go somewhere
00:02:34 ◼ ► else in the city and generally since i don't live in the city i and i i am not like that i'm going to
00:02:40 ◼ ► a giants game um midweek in a few weeks and i wonder if i might get off the bus a little early or something
00:02:46 ◼ ► and then take a you should do that take you should do it for the show just do it for the show about it
00:02:51 ◼ ► so i'll i'll look at that i've also thought about um i thought about in phoenix like taking a waymo as
00:02:57 ◼ ► far as it'll go and then like calling a a lift to take me the rest of the way or something but um haven't
00:03:05 ◼ ► done that either so uh yeah i anyway that's i i would be interested in it um i've seen them in action from
00:03:10 ◼ ► the outside they seem like they know what they're doing right like they they are and and honestly
00:03:16 ◼ ► they would be stuck at turns forever if they didn't like drive like a normal person like they
00:03:23 ◼ ► can't be super tentative um and i've seen them around the ballpark after a game and they they seem
00:03:29 ◼ ► to figure it out so i don't know how they're doing it obviously you know please don't write in to tell
00:03:34 ◼ ► me about the one time one got lost somewhere like of course this happened oh yeah yeah yeah but yeah
00:03:38 ◼ ► there are things that have happened it's a system generally generally it has been a positive thing
00:03:44 ◼ ► even the horror stories there are very few of them and most of them involve people um like standing in
00:03:51 ◼ ► front of a waymo uh that was that was an infamous one to block a because somebody was asking somebody
00:03:55 ◼ ► for a date it was really gross and uh very bad uh but she pressed the button and to like alert waymo
00:04:01 ◼ ► that there was a problem and there's the legendary story that i know i've mentioned probably on this
00:04:07 ◼ ► podcast about the parking lot we used to use for giants games that became the parking lot that was being
00:04:11 ◼ ► live stream and at two in the morning the waymos were all honking at each other yes um i i'm happy
00:04:16 ◼ ► to report that's a it's a parking lot again i parked there for giants games again so the waymo
00:04:20 ◼ ► parking experiment on second street in san francisco in front of the webcam seems to be over yeah yeah
00:04:27 ◼ ► they seem pretty bad for them pl wise i think that was a bad place where there's an apartment building
00:04:32 ◼ ► uh looking down on them that can live stream the waymo so they're they're out of there but anyway i would
00:04:36 ◼ ► love to try it sometime i'm interested in it i think um it's hard not to drive around san francisco and
00:04:42 ◼ ► think that maybe this is the future that um whether all cars get replaced by self-driving things you know
00:04:49 ◼ ► is a debate that will play out over many years but the idea that you could just have free roaming
00:04:56 ◼ ► taxis that drive themselves and it is something you know you pull up next one there's nobody driving it
00:05:03 ◼ ► like there's nobody in there except the passenger or if it doesn't have a passenger there's literally
00:05:07 ◼ ► nobody in the car it's just doing things it's pretty wild but um it's just it's becoming it's
00:05:14 ◼ ► becoming routine and that's what i've heard from people who have taken the waymos is the first time
00:05:18 ◼ ► you do it it's amazing and you're like whoa this is so futuristic the fifth time you do it it's just
00:05:23 ◼ ► a cab ride that's it yeah somebody who relies on public transport to the level that i do i have no
00:05:30 ◼ ► problem with the idea of getting in a car driven by a computer because i why do i have faith in anything
00:05:38 ◼ ► that drives me or moves me around from place to place you know like it's it is either a human or it's
00:05:44 ◼ ► a system or like whatever yeah i've never been in a waymo but i would totally do it i would totally do
00:05:49 ◼ ► it yeah if you would like to send in a question of your own to help us open a future episode of the
00:05:55 ◼ ► show please go to upgradefeedback.com and send in your own snell talk i have a follow-up i am jason
00:06:01 ◼ ► we've spoken about nest in the past we were uh-huh this is in the context of them not adding matter
00:06:09 ◼ ► support to some of their older thermostats um they have announced this week that the first
00:06:14 ◼ ► and second generation nest thermostats are going to lose access to most of their connected features
00:06:19 ◼ ► including the app in october of this year um the thermostat will still act as a thermostat in your
00:06:26 ◼ ► home but you won't be able to do any of the smart stuff with it except anything you can do on the
00:06:31 ◼ ► screen itself i think i think they're doing a decent thing and they're giving a really good discount to
00:06:37 ◼ ► customers in the u.s to upgrade their thermostats to a newer model the problem for me which is why i'm
00:06:42 ◼ ► mentioning this they are no longer going to be bringing any products to europe so i have a second
00:06:51 ◼ ► gen nest thermostat in my home it was there when we moved in so i was like great uh we use the app so
00:06:59 ◼ ► this is really i'm sure that you have some stuff to say in a minute but i just want to say if if
00:07:05 ◼ ► listeners have recommendations for a smart thermostat in the uk please write into the feedback form and let
00:07:12 ◼ ► you know um upgrade feedback dot com because i need to do something about this yeah so i guess i guess
00:07:20 ◼ ► the question i have and i don't know if people have an answer in the various forums and all that would be
00:07:25 ◼ ► i i wonder what form this kind of bricking will take um because if it's still on your local network
00:07:34 ◼ ► could you control it with home bridge or similar right those tools that let you connect the nest to
00:07:43 ◼ ► home kit will those still work or do those also require api access that's a great question yeah also
00:07:49 ◼ ► this just sucks google you know google sucks they they cancel all these products that people rely on
00:07:56 ◼ ► they use their i mean we complain about apple sort of lack being very lackadaisical about some of the
00:08:01 ◼ ► products that they roll out but this is the worst they just roll things out they they buy things they
00:08:06 ◼ ► kill whole categories where people have to compete with this giant company google and then they just
00:08:10 ◼ ► toss it off and say forget it by the way you you were incorrect in saying they weren't going to do matter
00:08:16 ◼ ► support on old products they they weren't going to bring matter support to their currently shipping
00:08:20 ◼ ► premium thermostat and when they when they made that announcement it's like we're not going to bother
00:08:25 ◼ ► which is just amazing they do have i think some new stuff now it's not as good as the old stuff they've kind of
00:08:30 ◼ ► decontented the nest and it's just like a crappy round thermostat there are other options i'm sure
00:08:36 ◼ ► that there will be something good in the uk uh i used a nest for a long time um before i i dumped it
00:08:42 ◼ ► for an ecobee which i had for like nine months and then got a new hvac system that can't use third-party
00:08:47 ◼ ► thermostats so i'm out of this business now but it just i i appreciate that they're giving people on a
00:08:52 ◼ ► discount but like they're not and they're not bricking the thermostat really right it will still work as a
00:08:59 ◼ ► thermostat and you could still presumably program it on the device you can do that it's not great
00:09:05 ◼ ► but it's really disappointing that they uh that they've that they've done this and what really bugs
00:09:12 ◼ ► me and i think it's a really important note is the attitude i think the verge wrote a story about this
00:09:17 ◼ ► where the attitude is very much like um these thermostats have been around for 10 12 years which
00:09:23 ◼ ► is a pretty good run for a tech product and i thought yeah but not for a thermostat like not for
00:09:29 ◼ ► a home product home product you know those tech products that are that are thermostats thermostats
00:09:34 ◼ ► should last forever right and that's the problem is if if you have to replace something that's in your
00:09:41 ◼ ► home every five years because it becomes obsolete the smart home thing is not going to work like
00:09:47 ◼ ► there there needs to be an expectation of more longevity for this stuff and you know it's not
00:09:52 ◼ ► like google can't afford to keep the servers up that's the other galling thing here is that they're
00:09:56 ◼ ► like they're not getting any more money out of those people so they're just going to kiss them off
00:10:00 ◼ ► i mean they could i'm sure charge for it they could have a separate technology stack that is a legacy
00:10:05 ◼ ► technology stack right that is maintained that just operates the old stuff if they want to stuff
00:10:11 ◼ ► obviously don't want to do that they don't want to they could why should they bother right they could
00:10:14 ◼ ► what do they care they work now so like obviously the reason they're not going to work is they want
00:10:20 ◼ ► to do something right or they just they want to change something on their systems that would
00:10:24 ◼ ► necessitate the killing of these products but that means that there is a system that exists
00:10:29 ◼ ► that could support these products if they decided they wanted to do that but look i i i want to have a
00:10:36 ◼ ► thermostat that integrates into the home app and i'm hoping that this will be an opportunity for me to
00:10:41 ◼ ► make that switch and they're just going to push me to do it there's a company called hive in the uk
00:10:46 ◼ ► which has seemed to be backed by british gas and i think that they do what i'm looking for which is
00:10:52 ◼ ► a decent enough thermostat that i believe they say has home kit access and support but the documentation
00:11:10 ◼ ► recommendations is your heat like boiler boiler and radiator kind of stuff yeah yeah okay so it's a it's
00:11:18 ◼ ► we have a combi boiler yeah it's appreciably different from how most americans heat their
00:11:23 ◼ ► houses so it's an issue but um it just if what look here's what i'll say though about this too right
00:11:28 ◼ ► look i just think that to me this suggests that maybe this isn't a good product to invest in in
00:11:35 ◼ ► your home no matter where you live because google's decided that they can't be bothered to support an
00:11:40 ◼ ► entire continent of customers which is quite a lot of people um and so it it would suggest to me that
00:11:48 ◼ ► they're not serious about this product category because they have done it it's not impossible they did it
00:11:55 ◼ ► for many years so they just don't want to do it anymore with their new products and that that would
00:12:01 ◼ ► indicate to me a lack of seriousness so my only hope is that there is going to be the right way to do this
00:12:09 ◼ ► if you're google and you're killing these products the right way to do this is to park it in a state and
00:12:15 ◼ ► i've heard about this from from some other companies that they've talked about this that like if the
00:12:19 ◼ ► worst happens it won't be a brick if the worst happens you can have it in a state where it doesn't need
00:12:25 ◼ ► to phone home like um my metric time that is my little clock that i have under the tv um they
00:12:30 ◼ ► finally put in a feature that is like a local um local plug-in local data source kind of thing
00:12:36 ◼ ► and that made me feel better because if those those people go out of business their device now has a mode
00:12:42 ◼ ► where basically i can feed it data from my server and they don't need to be involved so the right thing
00:12:48 ◼ ► for for google to do is place those nests in some sort of a state where they're on the network locally
00:12:54 ◼ ► and things like homebridge plugins and things like that will work with them i my fear is that everything
00:13:01 ◼ ► is going through their authentication api and once it's turned off they just won't work anymore it doesn't
00:13:06 ◼ ► matter and that that's a shame right because you should be able to let people kind of like keep those things
00:13:11 ◼ ► alive and functioning even if you're not using the actual nest uh app anymore so uh yeah it's a real
00:13:18 ◼ ► bummer by the way as an aside because i'm going to use the power of upgrade here i still have my my ecobee
00:13:24 ◼ ► smart thermostat premium uh it's sitting in a drawer if somebody would like me to make it would like to
00:13:30 ◼ ► make a decent offer for me to send it to them you'll you won't just be using an ecobee thermostat premium
00:13:36 ◼ ► with two sensors you'll be using mine oh i'm turning into marco here i'll sign it for you
00:13:42 ◼ ► if you want like i don't care i just uh i realized i should probably sell that and i don't make me go
00:13:47 ◼ ► to ebay people anyway find a way to get in contact to jason directly do not send these requests to the
00:13:51 ◼ ► upgrade feedback no don't do that no don't send it to the feedback form find jason and offer it to him
00:13:57 ◼ ► i don't want 25 different requests to field in the feedback form uh this is part of the the i don't
00:14:05 ◼ ► know the game here is you've got to find jason and contact him and then you can get to get the what is
00:14:10 ◼ ► an ecobee ecobee premium yeah it's good it's a good thermostat i just can't use it anymore that's another
00:14:15 ◼ ► company that does interesting products but they don't make versions uh outside of the u.s but never
00:14:21 ◼ ► mind yeah well you know google google especially it's like it's not a really an international
00:14:25 ◼ ► company yeah it's true it's really very very just just very small local california company
00:14:32 ◼ ► it's time to lawyer up jason snell clunk clunk thank you uh it's happened the time has come
00:14:40 ◼ ► apple and meta are the first two companies to be hit with fines in relation to the dma from the
00:14:47 ◼ ► european union the digital markets act uh meta has been fined 200 million euros this is uh for as much
00:14:53 ◼ ► as i can understand it because it's all very confusing to me on a red ad maybe i don't track
00:14:58 ◼ ► meta enough closely but it seems like in europe they offer a product i think where you can pay meta and
00:15:04 ◼ ► you don't have to see ads in facebook or instagram um but the eu is unhappy about that like they want
00:15:11 ◼ ► there to be a middle ground where you give more limited private information um honestly i can't see
00:15:18 ◼ ► what the problem is here but maybe what bugs me about it is that it seems to be that they set
00:15:23 ◼ ► lay down some rules and meta said okay we'll build this product we don't want to build and then the ec is
00:15:29 ◼ ► like actually we want you to build it differently which i'm sorry this is one of the things that really
00:15:34 ◼ ► does set me off about some of this ec regulation is they're basically telling companies uh they're
00:15:40 ◼ ► dictating products for companies to build in order to be compliant um instead of saying here what the
00:15:47 ◼ ► rules are follow the rules because they're like oh we didn't mean it like that well make your rules
00:15:50 ◼ ► better then but stop designing yes new versions of facebook for facebook to implement for you
00:15:56 ◼ ► it's bananas i think it's incredible that they built it i think it's actually an interesting idea i think
00:16:01 ◼ ► it's also maybe not a bad business for for matter if they can get it right you know like everybody you
00:16:05 ◼ ► know so many companies and have like pay or get ads but the idea that they're like no we actually meant
00:16:11 ◼ ► uh we want you to make your advertising this effect no i don't agree with this but anyway it's amazing
00:16:17 ◼ ► uh they also find apple 500 million euros and for apple we're back to anti-steering rules uh so the
00:16:25 ◼ ► european commission does not like the way that apple has set up alternative app stores for all of the
00:16:30 ◼ ► reasons that i guess we don't like how they set up alternative app stores uh the core technology fee
00:16:35 ◼ ► is being considered a it's a key sticking point of theirs because it makes developers it disincentivizes
00:16:41 ◼ ► uh developers to go down this route because they're worried they could get i don't know like
00:16:46 ◼ ► absolutely obliterated financially and it also adds complexity or additional cost to customers because
00:16:52 ◼ ► apps that could be free that have to charge to make sure that they can cover the fees this is we see this
00:16:59 ◼ ► in all sorts of spots um the ec also believes that the eligibility requirements for alternative
00:17:05 ◼ ► distribution are too strict and that the method of installing alternative app stores is considered
00:17:11 ◼ ► too complicated and burdensome i don't disagree with any of this uh i really like these points that
00:17:18 ◼ ► there are many more but like these are kind of the key points and these were all of the things that
00:17:26 ◼ ► so apple's response to this they did the typical i'm outraged outraged by the believe this but one of
00:17:35 ◼ ► the things that they mentioned and this is going to keep coming up and i remember when we hit on this a
00:17:39 ◼ ► few years ago they're going to say the the ec wants us to give things to people for free that's what
00:17:45 ◼ ► what they're going to say what they mean is apple's defense of them keeping as much revenue as possible in
00:17:54 ◼ ► their platform is that it's a proxy for uh paying for developer tools now i would argue that that's a lie
00:18:05 ◼ ► that it's never been a proxy and it's just a sort of a legal fig leaf that they're trying to put over
00:18:12 ◼ ► this but that's their argument is we provide apis and developer tools for developers and we should be
00:18:18 ◼ ► compensated for that in some way now i i'm open to that argument although i do not have a lot of
00:18:25 ◼ ► patience for it i feel like apple's benefit is that they have a strong platform and they can sell a lot of
00:18:30 ◼ ► phones for a lot of money and make huge profits and that taking you know charging for developer tools
00:18:36 ◼ ► is not you know if they want to do that i guess they could charge up front or something but like
00:18:41 ◼ ► no they benefit from having this model because uh it creates a rich ecosystem that benefits them when
00:18:47 ◼ ► they sell all of their things also the ec isn't saying don't compete the ec is saying don't force all of
00:18:55 ◼ ► your app developers to hide the existence of the web from users and honestly again i am not a lawyer
00:19:05 ◼ ► i cannot uh go into the details of this but just as a person who understands how apple works i look at
00:19:12 ◼ ► this and i i would not i would not accept their argument either i would say you can compete all you
00:19:19 ◼ ► want but you cannot make developers pretend the web doesn't exist yeah and and and and say how dare you
00:19:27 ◼ ► you use anything and then when they finally build it they build it in such a limited way such a
00:19:35 ◼ ► non-functional way behind all of the scare alerts because again remember one of the the key things here
00:19:41 ◼ ► is danger danger danger you are going to a website gasp which is again just it that's not how people
00:19:51 ◼ ► are that's not how the world works it's it's bananas that apple thinks that oh iphone users don't use
00:19:58 ◼ ► like the internet or anything they're just inside the warm embrace of apple it's it's they make safari
00:20:04 ◼ ► it's wild so i have very little time for this um i understand apple sort of saying we want to be
00:20:09 ◼ ► compensated in some way but even then i kind of roll my eyes at that um and and yeah this is this is one
00:20:16 ◼ ► of the the truth is this is one of the easy ones this is one of the easy ones this anti-steering stuff
00:20:21 ◼ ► like apple apple is asking developers to say that the sky is green essentially it it it does not it does
00:20:29 ◼ ► not map to reality it's such an easy one to say no you know if you are an app developer and you've got a
00:20:34 ◼ ► website where people can log in and do things you can tell people about that and apple's like no no no no
00:20:38 ◼ ► no you can't you can't it's too dangerous to share that information with them because they might choose
00:20:44 ◼ ► something outside of our control it's like well they might they might not but like they might
00:20:49 ◼ ► just deal with it like it's it's the like um it's like a pretend competition is what they create
00:20:56 ◼ ► it's like we're going to allow you to compete with us but we're going to draw the rules of competition
00:21:00 ◼ ► in such a way that it's incredibly hard for you to win right like it's just like very very unfair
00:21:08 ◼ ► rules i mean we've been calling this for the whole time right uh yeah the the european commission
00:21:13 ◼ ► that says that apple has 60 days to comply with this new ruling uh and i guess i just say
00:21:19 ◼ ► what now then so this fine is large right 500 million euros is large but it's not as big as
00:21:26 ◼ ► it could have been they can that the european commission has the ability based on the rules
00:21:31 ◼ ► to to levy fines of up to 10 percent of global revenue for a year so i think it's something like
00:21:37 ◼ ► 40 billion euros they could have asked for they've asked for half a billion which is still an incredible
00:21:42 ◼ ► amount of money but it's nowhere near as much so maybe they're leaving themselves some room
00:21:46 ◼ ► maybe they're a little bit nervous now i don't know what the situation is they've this is the
00:21:50 ◼ ► decision that they have made and they levied this fine if apple does not comply even those 60 days my
00:21:56 ◼ ► understanding is they can find them again and just keep doing it um i think the thing that has
00:22:01 ◼ ► potentially has changed is the u.s government now has an opinion uh under joe biden there was zero opinion
00:22:08 ◼ ► seemingly given about the dma stuff um it has been called an economic extortion that will not be
00:22:15 ◼ ► tolerated i don't know what that means nobody knows what that means but it has created a different
00:22:22 ◼ ► scenario uh i think than than where we find ourselves before there is it is a different scenario and there
00:22:29 ◼ ► is more stuff about this later on in the show about kind of like apple and the government but uh for
00:22:38 ◼ ► yeah it's a saber rattling going on there i mean what are they gonna do more tariffs i mean
00:22:45 ◼ ► it's i don't know it i i think if if i were the ec i'd be like all right let's see what you got right
00:22:53 ◼ ► like because that's the kind of thing that gets that gets negotiated but what they're trying to do now
00:22:57 ◼ ► is just get them to tone it down or stop it and i don't think they will so uh i you know we'll just
00:23:04 ◼ ► have to keep our eye on it but um i neither of us are surprised that they looked at what apple did
00:23:10 ◼ ► with their very limited implementation and said no that's not good enough because it does feel very
00:23:17 ◼ ► much like apple was trying to adhere to the minimum possible by the letter of the law even though it
00:23:24 ◼ ► didn't actually fulfill the point of the law and so of course the ec was like no that's not good
00:23:31 ◼ ► enough so here we are but i think it does on the pin another point that we were talking about the whole
00:23:36 ◼ ► time of like there was a there was an easier way to do this there was a better way to do this and
00:23:42 ◼ ► nobody wanted to do it right like yeah we shouldn't have gotten this far that apple built this whole
00:23:47 ◼ ► system and then it's deemed to be uh illegal right there should have been something between
00:23:53 ◼ ► these two entities that got them to a point where they were happy with rather than this dance right
00:23:58 ◼ ► but i guess i guess that is wishful thinking that it's not how the world works but it's how i would
00:24:03 ◼ ► like the world to work takes takes two to dance right and and i would say yes we can be frustrated
00:24:09 ◼ ► that what the look if the ec puts down rules yeah and says follow these rules they get criticized for
00:24:17 ◼ ► not being not providing enough detail but if the ec gives all the detail they will get criticized for
00:24:22 ◼ ► creating forcing people to create products right which is what sort of happened with meta so and the
00:24:28 ◼ ► other side of it is there could be a give and take where apple says okay we're thinking of doing it this
00:24:32 ◼ ► way what do you think and you know clearly they don't like it right clearly they don't like it and
00:24:38 ◼ ► yes you're right there should have been a back and forth where they said if you implement this you will
00:24:41 ◼ ► be fined and for all we know there was but they're like you know what that probably go ahead and find
00:24:46 ◼ ► us yeah go ahead and find us they i have no doubt there's so much back channeling going on during a
00:24:50 ◼ ► scenario yes i what i mean i just wish that they could have been i wish that everyone could have taken
00:24:56 ◼ ► this and this is again it's unrealistic i just wish that in this scenario everybody went into it with an
00:25:01 ◼ ► open mind and like that everyone went into it and be like we can do something here that will benefit
00:25:05 ◼ ► our customers and us but obviously they're not going to do that but i just wished yeah i just wish
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00:27:35 ◼ ► of this show and relay rumor round up time yeehaw known leaker i wish there was a better phrase for
00:27:44 ◼ ► this uh i i searched for this last week and i ended up with purveyor of apple rumors yeah it's just like
00:27:52 ◼ ► i don't know what to say it's hard to like i don't this is just the the word right so i think i just have
00:27:57 ◼ ► to go for it but i just i it feels derogatory to the person but like like because why do we not call
00:28:03 ◼ ► mark german a leaker we don't do that but like i think leaker has become like this phrase which is
00:28:09 ◼ ► like used in youtube and stuff it's like cool anyway but uh my jimboo is reporting that ipad os 19
00:28:17 ◼ ► the ipad will gain a menu bar when it is connected to a magic keyboard and also shared that stage
00:28:25 ◼ ► manager improvements will be a big part of the ipad os 19 update saying that it will quote
00:28:30 ◼ ► make managing apps and windows smoother and more productive than ever what do you make of all of
00:28:37 ◼ ► this um well i this is the detail we did not get from mark german when he said hey it will be better
00:28:43 ◼ ► at productivity multitasking and window management like a mac like a mac the people will be happy i
00:28:49 ◼ ► think is the other part he said those people will be happy and that was all he got um but major boo
00:28:54 ◼ ► is here is to say yeah it's gonna be you know plug in and get a menu bar i will just point out because
00:29:00 ◼ ► it made me laugh when i saw this story because i thought oh i literally wrote this in 2021 yeah i said
00:29:07 ◼ ► look they got all the pieces because if you hold down the command key uh when you're using a an ipad with
00:29:11 ◼ ► a keyboard it brings up the the menu shortcuts and it's literally in some apps it's literally
00:29:18 ◼ ► organized by the mac menu because of catalyst uh you can build a whole menu bar in catalyst and it
00:29:25 ◼ ► also sort of shows up in this one view it is just a matter of will for apple to put that in as a feature
00:29:31 ◼ ► and john gruber wrote about this the other day and and i i agree wholeheartedly one of the greatest
00:29:37 ◼ ► innovations in the mac and one of the things that still makes the mac great is the menu
00:29:41 ◼ ► bar is the fact that all of your computer programs have unlike back when we had to like type in
00:29:47 ◼ ► things in commands back in the day like all of the features of your programs are in the menu bar
00:29:54 ◼ ► uh it lists them you can get them from there you can uh use that you can see the keyboard shortcuts that
00:30:01 ◼ ► you can use instead uh in the system you can assign keyboard shortcuts there's so much richness there
00:30:06 ◼ ► that you see any ipad app that is trying to be complicated you know complex powerful you see them
00:30:15 ◼ ► struggle with like how do i make sure that somewhere here in the ui this feature is exposed when on a mac
00:30:25 ◼ ► you just say put it in the menu bar and the problem is it's actually appreciably worse because a lot of
00:30:31 ◼ ► those contexts where it's in the ui are in very specific contexts where you would never it's like
00:30:36 ◼ ► where where is it whereas i can go up to the help menu and type a string on the mac and find that menu
00:30:42 ◼ ► bar command and where it lives and even run it right from there so i think this is a great idea and and on
00:30:48 ◼ ► top of that just more broadly you know we talk about stage manager we talked about ipad multitasking we've
00:30:55 ◼ ► talked about how one of the huge problems that apple faces is making an ipad os that is friendly
00:31:00 ◼ ► to people who just use it as a tab and they don't want to they don't want to accidentally drag a tab
00:31:05 ◼ ► out of safari and suddenly end up in split view they just want to use it the way they want to use it and
00:31:09 ◼ ► then there are the people who are like well no i kind of want it to be mac like it's like how in the
00:31:13 ◼ ► world do we do both well one of the ways is to detect when a keyboard or other device similar
00:31:19 ◼ ► is attached to the ipad and enter a different mode because then you've got a keyboard so probably
00:31:27 ◼ ► you want a different kind of interface you've got a keyboard and a trackpad you probably want something
00:31:31 ◼ ► different it it makes so much sense and all i can say so i wrote about that in 2021 all i can say is
00:31:37 ◼ ► the only reason we haven't gotten this is because of dogma within apple right it's apple saying no no no
00:31:44 ◼ ► that's a bridge too far and i will just say i i wrote that piece in 21 because in in uh 20 and 19
00:31:51 ◼ ► they started adding pointer support and they add and then they shipped a keyboard with a trackpad
00:31:57 ◼ ► and like the horse is out of the barn like all those arguments about like oh the ipad can't it's not
00:32:03 ◼ ► like that and all i it's like they sell a thing that makes the ipad a laptop now so embrace it just i
00:32:09 ◼ ► mean just you know just do it and make it good and i actually think this is great for people who don't
00:32:14 ◼ ► ever buy ipad pros and don't buy keyboards and stuff because it it walls that stuff off it's like you
00:32:20 ◼ ► want to use it like a laptop go ahead we've got a laptop mode now um so i think it's a good idea i
00:32:26 ◼ ► just again i thought it was a good idea four years ago too and i it's oh it's just i'd say it's baffling
00:32:32 ◼ ► but it's more like entirely expected for the ipad that there's a weird tug of war inside apple about
00:32:37 ◼ ► what the ipad should be and they build all they lay all the groundwork and then they just don't
00:32:42 ◼ ► they just don't do it for years afterward so um great sounds great this would have been a great
00:32:48 ◼ ► feature in 2022 it still might be but like they could have done this three years ago or two years
00:32:53 ◼ ► ago or last year why now i don't know i don't know yeah this kind of thing for me i know that this is
00:33:01 ◼ ► the problem with rumors right where i'm just like okay let's see because i i don't yeah i don't see
00:33:08 ◼ ► realistically how this makes any material change to the ipad experience like great there's a menu
00:33:15 ◼ ► bar now like i i don't then imagine that the majority of ipad app developers are going to make
00:33:22 ◼ ► significant changes that are applications that make them better like i i will you know i don't know say
00:33:30 ◼ ► google see a google gonna put stuff in the menu bar like no that's the worst example because google's a
00:33:35 ◼ ► terrible app developer but that's the point though in in general yeah well this is this is the thing is
00:33:41 ◼ ► it's all about execution it's all about how developers respond to it um we haven't even mentioned like
00:33:47 ◼ ► making managing apps and windows smoother and more productive like what is it it's all about the
00:33:54 ◼ ► details because we heard that about how many times have we heard this story right that's what it comes
00:33:58 ◼ ► down to is how many times have we heard this story and of course like i said when german's thing came
00:34:03 ◼ ► out what goes in those windows that you're managing what goes in them because that's the that's one of
00:34:08 ◼ ► the big problems with the ipad is the functionality uh of apps isn't there i had somebody ask me last week
00:34:15 ◼ ► what based on this story it's like what do i personally consider an impediment to doing
00:34:24 ◼ ► my work on an ipad and i always just come to like what would make me bring not bring my macbook pro with
00:34:32 ◼ ► me to arizona division my mom the answer is all the audio stuff we've talked about the inability for
00:34:38 ◼ ► multiple apps to you know run at the same time and access the audio subsystem recording all my podcast
00:34:42 ◼ ► stuff stuff stuff that keyboard shortcuts that are global so you could assign shortcuts anywhere and
00:34:50 ◼ ► use them anywhere um it's a clipboard manager or support for apps to do things like that in the
00:34:56 ◼ ► background uh the ability for apps like audio and video editors to run in the background and not be
00:35:01 ◼ ► killed or other apps that you've got like the the whole like not things that aren't killed in the
00:35:06 ◼ ► background or the ability to have multiple media streams playing at once and they just over
00:35:10 ◼ ► overlap each other like on the mac instead of pausing one thing while i'm doing another there's nothing
00:35:16 ◼ ► like watching a video and scrolling through a web page and the web page tries to play a video and
00:35:21 ◼ ► the video you're watching pauses and that happened to me last week so there's a lot of things that are
00:35:26 ◼ ► functional about ipad os so like they can they look i think a menu bar adding a menu bar is good there
00:35:32 ◼ ► are a lot of apps that will support it and they will in fact already support it and that that apple can lead
00:35:38 ◼ ► away there and that it will add some usability but there are you know it's not it's not going to cure
00:35:44 ◼ ► it right there's a lot that needs to happen uh and a lot of that is on apple because like if if the os
00:35:51 ◼ ► refuses to let apps behave in a mac-like way making the interface more mac-like doesn't help because also
00:35:59 ◼ ► like how how how far can you go interface wise when it only becomes mac-like when you connect the magic
00:36:10 ◼ ► keyboard i think that is a question right which is if you care about your app when it's just a touch app
00:36:17 ◼ ► then you have to still put all the ui everywhere when it's a touch app yeah but at least you could
00:36:24 ◼ ► expose it in the menu bar afterward and again it'll be like i think more pro apps maybe things
00:36:30 ◼ ► that are targeted more at this at this kind of semi-mythical high-end ipad but like apple believes
00:36:36 ◼ ► that that that user exists because they make an ipad pro and a keyboard right like they they act as if
00:36:40 ◼ ► that user exists and they make final cut and logic right like i think i think there are some apps that
00:36:46 ◼ ► will take advantage of this and and we'll see you know we'll see how that goes yeah there have been
00:36:53 ◼ ► so many times where apple has said like desktop class apps right desktop class apps and i just
00:37:00 ◼ ► they have features that that you can get you there but i just they're not used no and there's still
00:37:08 ◼ ► fundamentals i mean again it comes down to the details because like when when this person asked me
00:37:12 ◼ ► you know what was an impediment i was trying to imagine working in stage manager on my ipad pro
00:37:18 ◼ ► and a lot of it is things like window management window management isn't just moving a window around
00:37:25 ◼ ► on screen although it does really bug me that like on an ipad you have to click multiple times in order
00:37:30 ◼ ► to do something with a window on a mac you can just click the close box but also like on the ipad you
00:37:36 ◼ ► you can't just do like command n to open a new window in an app because the apps don't think like
00:37:42 ◼ ► mac apps they're like oh a new window do you mean to replace this or add a tab or it's like no i just
00:37:47 ◼ ► want a new window i'm in multi-window mode and the app's like oh i don't know i can't i can't really do
00:37:52 ◼ ► that and it gets so frustrating and you know it's stuff like that that it's just uh or expose or like
00:38:00 ◼ ► there are so many of these details that the ipad just doesn't offer that that get in your way and
00:38:06 ◼ ► and that's that's it is like is this a revolutionary set of detailed changes or is it three new features
00:38:13 ◼ ► that get tossed in the mix and then they walk away again and you know that's that's what we have to
00:38:19 ◼ ► wait and see about is the details of how they do this i'm just gonna be really annoying and i'm just
00:38:23 ◼ ► gonna say it like i like my ipad as an ipad when i connect it to a magic keyboard just give me mac os
00:38:28 ◼ ► like i don't i just what i want like just give me mac os like you don't need to do all this like
00:38:35 ◼ ► just give me that i'll have that right then that would be amazing because i know i know these machines
00:38:40 ◼ ► can run it i know it can my my ipad pro has a more powerful chip than my macbook air but my macbook air
00:38:47 ◼ ► is infinitely more capable than my ipad pro there's nothing stopping apple from building a uh a classic like
00:39:02 ◼ ► in ipad os not reboot into mac os but it's like mac os is back there or aspects of mac os are back
00:39:09 ◼ ► there they could try that too i just think that's i think this is the push and pull at apple which is
00:39:14 ◼ ► some people are like let's make the ipad more mac like but not the mac and then other people are like
00:39:18 ◼ ► we'll just do a mac then or you know whatever because because i think i've heard several people
00:39:22 ◼ ► talk about this in this latest wave of ipad despair that we've all been going through which is you know
00:39:28 ◼ ► is the answer that what people really want is better um and more flexible hardware on the mac side
00:39:34 ◼ ► and and you know the answer is yes to both like one way or another having a little tablet that you can
00:39:41 ◼ ► also attach and make into a laptop is a pretty cool thing and right now apple doesn't let you do both
00:39:46 ◼ ► you you either get a tablet that runs a tablet os that can sit in a laptop shape or you have a laptop
00:39:54 ◼ ► but that's it like there's no in between and i think that is probably at the core of apple
00:40:00 ◼ ► having this real ambivalence because what they you know what they really like is selling ipad pros
00:40:06 ◼ ► and selling ipad pros with magic keyboards and showing them off but what they don't seem to like
00:40:10 ◼ ► is making it a little you know crossing that line and making it a little more like the mac um which
00:40:17 ◼ ► yeah it would be if i could take an m3 or m4 ipad pro with me and know that i could do everything i
00:40:23 ◼ ► could do on my mac and the rest of the time it's just an ipad so i don't need to bring two two devices
00:40:28 ◼ ► that'd be great that'd be great and we know they could federico said this and i'll say it too
00:40:33 ◼ ► i will pay you the price of both machines i will do it give me an ipad that is a thousand dollars more
00:40:40 ◼ ► but has mac os i'll pay it because then i only need one thing right where currently and it could
00:40:46 ◼ ► do both i'm carrying both things because i love both things this is what i'm saying like this is not me
00:40:51 ◼ ► being down on the ipad this is me being more pro ipad than most people i want it to do what it does
00:40:58 ◼ ► i love it i i don't own a magic keyboard for my ipad pro because i don't want that like i just want
00:41:06 ◼ ► the best ipad experience that i can have and like i don't want it to be confused and like further by
00:41:14 ◼ ► being like oh and now there's a menu bar sometimes like i don't want that i just want the ipad to be
00:41:20 ◼ ► the ipad because i think the ipad is amazing at that but if you were going to say we need to make
00:41:27 ◼ ► it more professional and more capable then let me run mac os on it and just like forget ipad os like
00:41:33 ◼ ► just ipad os is just like just make it this like in between thing it's bigger than an iphone it's and
00:41:41 ◼ ► it you know because it has a bigger screen it can do some other stuff we don't need to try and like
00:41:46 ◼ ► make it like a mac and you know what as well apple proved me wrong right wwdc this year please i'm just
00:41:51 ◼ ► i've been burned too many times to assume that we're about to get the mac on on you know again
00:41:56 ◼ ► i get it but i also want to point out that what you said is i don't attach a keyboard to my ipad
00:42:03 ◼ ► i don't want that and this whole thing is saying you would never get that but the people who choose
00:42:07 ◼ ► to attach a keyboard to their ipad would get it yeah yeah but i just don't think it's one says i just
00:42:11 ◼ ► don't think i can't imagine a scenario where it's really going to be that great that's what i'm saying
00:42:16 ◼ ► of like and again that's what i'm saying prove me wrong but like if all you're doing is taking
00:42:21 ◼ ► the stuff that's behind keyboard shortcuts and putting them up in a menu bar like is that really
00:42:25 ◼ ► worth doing like is it really worth doing like i don't know if it is because i just don't what i'm
00:42:30 ◼ ► saying is like you can do all of that but i just don't think most app developers are going to get on
00:42:34 ◼ ► board with you and put this into their applications and so i'm just saying just give me the mac on it
00:42:39 ◼ ► instead well that that attitude's a little bit defeatist but i would say that i think the truth is
00:42:44 ◼ ► jason i've been defeated so many times i know you've been defeated so many times i was like yeah
00:42:49 ◼ ► well this is this is it i think the core question here has always been what is the high-end use of
00:42:57 ◼ ► the ipad really yeah and the problem is apple has changed it's seemingly has either changed its mind or
00:43:06 ◼ ► can't decide and i firmly believe in the mid-2010s the idea was that the ipad would continue to evolve
00:43:12 ◼ ► until it could replace the mac and they put in a mac compatibility layer for legacy mac apps but that
00:43:19 ◼ ► it would be like os 10 replacing os 9 that the ipad os would eventually be a thing you could run
00:43:24 ◼ ► on desktops and on laptops and everything else and it would be able to support that plus it would run
00:43:29 ◼ ► on tablets and convertibles and stuff like that and then the mac was being put out to pasture and then
00:43:34 ◼ ► they changed they changed their mind and they built these apple silicon macs and they sold a zillion of
00:43:38 ◼ ► them and the mac is doing better than it ever has and now you look at the ipad and you go huh um
00:43:43 ◼ ► what's this for again yeah and you're right as as much as i have enjoyed because i really love my ipad and
00:43:49 ◼ ► it is the computing device i use the most but the truth is that the ipad pro feature thing with the high price tag and
00:43:59 ◼ ► all that like you could argue that it's really like the stuff with apple pencil like there are some specific
00:44:06 ◼ ► use cases that are up at the high end but that most of what you're trying to do is kind of make a mac that's not as good as a mac
00:44:12 ◼ ► and and and so to your point the question would be at that point do you just give up and say no
00:44:20 ◼ ► just use the mac and when a user says well yeah but i i want a convertible that's a tablet most of the
00:44:27 ◼ ► time and then sometimes as a mac right now apple with all its hardware prowess that we talk about
00:44:31 ◼ ► is like oh we can't do that we can't make that well they can make it they have made it they just don't
00:44:37 ◼ ► want to allow it because it it would be too you know you're mixing your chocolate into your peanut
00:44:41 ◼ ► butter or whatever and you know you can't you can't do that it's too weird to mix those two things and
00:44:47 ◼ ► and so that you know this is this is what happens when a company hasn't decided what it wants to do
00:44:53 ◼ ► and that there are different parts of that organization that are pulling it in different
00:44:57 ◼ ► directions because there are i get that it's complicated but it's one of the reasons it's
00:45:03 ◼ ► complicated is that apple keeps building this amazing hardware and then erecting these very
00:45:09 ◼ ► weird barriers between their operating systems and while trying to ape one of their operating systems
00:45:15 ◼ ► with the other one and i kind of agree with you i'd be okay if an m3 m4 ipad pro just turned into mac
00:45:22 ◼ ► mode when you snapped it on a magic keyboard i think that would be okay also with all the rumors about
00:45:27 ◼ ► touchscreen macs coming down the pike this gets even weirder it's like okay what's that or that
00:45:33 ◼ ► foldable uh laptop slash ipad that's supposedly in the works for the next couple of years
00:45:38 ◼ ► how does that work what is that product does and and so my hope is that those products are being
00:45:46 ◼ ► developed because they've figured out how to bridge the gap here and we just can't see it yet and i hope
00:45:52 ◼ ► that's the case but as you said we've been defeated so many times that it's hard to think optimistically
00:45:57 ◼ ► about it again really like i wanna i want them to prove me wrong right like i want i want to believe
00:46:04 ◼ ► yes like i really want it but i just won't get my hopes up because again that's what i'm saying like
00:46:19 ◼ ► however majin bu also shared the iphones of a usb c port will also be able to show this new stage
00:46:27 ◼ ► manager when connected to a monitor quote while not a full desktop mode it will allow users to extend
00:46:32 ◼ ► their screen space great for presentations editing or enhanced viewing i don't know what this means like
00:46:39 ◼ ► i think i think i know what this is but the description that that boo gives does not help
00:46:51 ◼ ► ipad os in a way that like ipad os shows but but not a full desktop mode like but isn't that
00:46:57 ◼ ► i'm very confused by it but all of this you know everyone's saying this and i agree all of this feels like
00:47:04 ◼ ► can potentially even everything we've just been speaking about maybe they're doing all of this to
00:47:08 ◼ ► prepare for the folding iphone maybe that's what this is all for like improvements to stage manager
00:47:13 ◼ ► windowing you know it's all to prepare for the folding iphone which then brings a folding
00:47:19 ◼ ► tablet in the future potentially too right like this is hopefully the beginning groundwork that is
00:47:26 ◼ ► required to get to that next thing you know like the story we told before but like hey you should
00:47:31 ◼ ► build size classes into your iphone app what is a size class what does that mean and then oh because
00:47:38 ◼ ► we have split screen multitasking on the ipad coming right yeah and bigger phones are coming
00:47:42 ◼ ► bigger phones are coming and all this kind of stuff like apple have done this multiple times where they
00:47:46 ◼ ► ask you to do a thing and the reason they're asking you to do it is because there's a product coming
00:47:50 ◼ ► certainly a possibility that both of these stories are all are not as much about existing hardware as they
00:47:57 ◼ ► are about hardware that is coming and we're going to get the weird mode where it's like
00:48:00 ◼ ► well this is good but you know it's got all these limitations and everybody that apple's like
00:48:04 ◼ ► right they know that they're actually there for the product that's coming next year or the year after
00:48:10 ◼ ► but they've gotta they gotta start work it's a little like that um iphone air which i firmly believe
00:48:16 ◼ ► was you know is going to be designed as a stepping stone to a folding iphone and you got to make a thing
00:48:22 ◼ ► you got to make a thin plane of technology so that you can then make it uh foldable so i i i can see
00:48:29 ◼ ► that here too also i mean people have talked about this for a long time i know that apple has this
00:48:34 ◼ ► well you know buy why buy one product when you can buy three from us but like our phones are the most
00:48:40 ◼ ► important device that most of us have and they're the most popular apple product right the iphone is the
00:48:45 ◼ ► most popular apple product there are lots of people who have an iphone and do not own another apple product
00:48:49 ◼ ► just do the math there have to be so if the if and and if apple silicon is so powerful and apple's got a
00:48:59 ◼ ► real advantage in apple silicon and they've already built this operating system so that it can expand to
00:49:04 ◼ ► larger screens this is again this is one of those dogma things it's like why not let people plug their
00:49:11 ◼ ► iphone into a screen and a keyboard why not and and let them have so many people around the world use
00:49:19 ◼ ► their iphone as their primary computer already and like what if what if you could could kind of lead
00:49:25 ◼ ► them down the path a little bit and say the iphone is you can charge it and use it on a screen with a
00:49:29 ◼ ► keyboard when you're at your desk and then unplug it and take it in your pocket and like
00:49:33 ◼ ► that's actually pretty cool right like why not why not see where it goes and i think that for too long
00:49:40 ◼ ► when i talk about this kind of apple dogma it's very much like no this far no further we can't go
00:49:44 ◼ ► it's just an iphone isn't isn't that way and the other way to approach it would be like you know what
00:49:49 ◼ ► we don't think a lot of people are going to do this but we're going to let them try and we're going to
00:49:53 ◼ ► learn from it and they could do that because the truth is not a lot of people are going to attach
00:49:58 ◼ ► their iphone to a monitor and a keyboard and a trackpad right that's not going to happen but some
00:50:03 ◼ ► people will try it and apple will learn things from it and they'll learn and app developers will learn
00:50:08 ◼ ► and maybe we'll get something out of that that is a good lesson for whatever the future of computing is
00:50:14 ◼ ► and finally mark garman is reporting that apple's secret robotics unit will now be under john turnus's
00:50:21 ◼ ► organization marking another area of responsibility taken from john gianandria after the executive shifts
00:50:27 ◼ ► from the apple intelligence fallout um it's being said that this will allow for gianandria to
00:50:34 ◼ ► put more efforts into running apple's ai efforts which is not siri this is actually no it's the
00:50:40 ◼ ► foundational models and stuff and the research and all that kind of stuff the robotics team itself
00:50:46 ◼ ► continues to be run day to day by kevin lynch but now is in the john turnus hardware group aka the
00:50:53 ◼ ► john turnus taking over the company group which it increasingly feels like is going to happen
00:50:59 ◼ ► apple built these silos to work on stuff and it's a very unapple thing to do and they seem to have
00:51:05 ◼ ► finally just decided we're not going to do it bad anymore we're not going to have these separate groups
00:51:08 ◼ ► hardware group will work on hardware software group will work on software software we're not going to
00:51:13 ◼ ► have a robotics team we're not going to have a or like a a robot group there's going to be a hardware
00:51:18 ◼ ► group with robot people in it um and the we're going to have you know we're not going to have a
00:51:24 ◼ ► vision pro group we're going to have hardware people working on vision pro and we're going to have
00:51:26 ◼ ► software people working on vision os and that is the apple way of doing it and i know you put those
00:51:31 ◼ ► groups together when it's a skunk works project or when it's early days but at some point you you um
00:51:36 ◼ ► there are advantages um you know we'll just call it the way it is i mean this is like when i was in
00:51:41 ◼ ► second grade there was a kid who uh who didn't come with us to third grade and what he told us is
00:51:45 ◼ ► that um that the teacher asked him to stay behind and help her next year oh no well i mean that kid
00:51:51 ◼ ► got held back right that kid that kid got held back that kid couldn't go to third grade yeah look
00:51:55 ◼ ► jan andrea has been pushed out or they're carving something for him or or whatever but the argument is
00:52:02 ◼ ► that what he's good at is this you know more academic and research into ai developments and building ai
00:52:10 ◼ ► models that are then turned into products by the software team but they're they're at the higher
00:52:16 ◼ ► level of research and experimentation but as german points out the other reason you do all of this
00:52:21 ◼ ► is that when janji and andrea reacts to having most of his responsibility taken away by looking for a new
00:52:27 ◼ ► job you have the ability then to there will be fewer people that you need to move when he quits so
00:52:34 ◼ ► that's also true but i think i think it's also true that like having a research group looking into
00:52:38 ◼ ► foundational ai models that's a very different job than than what the the os group is doing
00:52:44 ◼ ► the the software group is doing and so that's fine like it's fine to have a group that does that that's
00:52:49 ◼ ► good if apple wants to build its own model it needs a group to do that whether janji and andrea is in
00:52:54 ◼ ► charge of it or it ultimately is just craig federighi or something like that so be it but that that group
00:53:00 ◼ ► does need to exist but um well yeah they're also prepping for him to be held back because there was that
00:53:05 ◼ ► report a couple of weeks ago right that that craig federighi is like hey just use open source models
00:53:10 ◼ ► to train stuff so yeah yeah maybe maybe but i mean yeah i mean we'll see i think there's too much pride
00:53:18 ◼ ► at apple to say we're just going to lift other people's stuff but who knows you never know what
00:53:22 ◼ ► it is i mean maybe but maybe they they've just decided they don't need the foundation anymore and
00:53:28 ◼ ► they can build their models on top and they feel like they have the people for that i don't know i mean
00:53:32 ◼ ► if i were tim cook i would still want to fund ai research right i'd still want to do that i'd still
00:53:37 ◼ ► want to have a team that funds ai research that that is there monitoring what's going on and trying
00:53:42 ◼ ► to give us advantages or allowing us to keep pace and that's they've got the money they should do it
00:53:47 ◼ ► the situation is though jason that if you're tim cook you can fund everything like it you know you
00:53:53 ◼ ► can just keep funding all i know but you've been burned here you got it you got a i think you got to
00:53:57 ◼ ► keep going i think i think saying oh ai is so important that we're not going to do it anymore we're just
00:54:01 ◼ ► going to pick up the scraps that are on the ground is a bad decision so i don't think he's going to make
00:54:06 ◼ ► that decision i agree and i don't think apple is capable of saying that right saying oh we give up
00:54:10 ◼ ► they're not they're not gonna they're not going to do that but the guy the big hire you brought in
00:54:15 ◼ ► who's now only in charge of that yeah i i could see he thought he was building an empire and in fact
00:54:20 ◼ ► he's just been put away on an island somewhere doing this so you know he seems not long for the company
00:54:25 ◼ ► but um but the that work will continue and then as for robotics like oh mark german loves the word
00:54:31 ◼ ► robotics and he keeps talking about he keeps talking about humanoid robots that apple might be working
00:54:37 ◼ ► on in the future look there's research speaking of research we we saw that one video about the the
00:54:42 ◼ ► thing that was handing you know pushing the water cup on the desk and all of that like apple
00:54:46 ◼ ► is doing research because there's you know hardware especially in the home but in general like
00:54:51 ◼ ► having the ability to do things like pivot a thing that's on a tabletop like maybe right and and like
00:54:59 ◼ ► you said they've got all the money like being really good at hardware and looking at how machine learning
00:55:05 ◼ ► models and uh allow you to do things in the real world in terms of interaction as well why not do that
00:55:13 ◼ ► now we'll see i am skeptical that much is going to come of this anytime soon but you never know
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00:56:33 ◼ ► meeting a thanks to vitally for their support of this show and relay the financial times is reporting
00:56:41 ◼ ► that apple has set a goal to produce the entirety of their u.s iphone production in india by the end of
00:56:47 ◼ ► 2026 that is next year this would be about 60 million iphones across the whole range if they were producing
00:56:54 ◼ ► the u.s uh stock but would probably be more than that right because they obviously produce iphones in
00:57:00 ◼ ► india for many places around the world so they would need to increase it significantly this would be
00:57:04 ◼ ► double the amount that they're currently producing if they were just producing net 60 million in the
00:57:09 ◼ ► short term now you take some short-term thinking on it uh this would be better for potential tariffs
00:57:14 ◼ ► whatever they may end up being and in the long term this is a further diversification supply chain which
00:57:19 ◼ ► apple have been kind of marching towards for a long time mark german doesn't think this would be
00:57:25 ◼ ► possible uh considering that the 2026 iphone lineup could be quite radically new with a folding iphone
00:57:31 ◼ ► and a quote more glass centric pro model as the 20th anniversary iphone um mark says apple has never
00:57:40 ◼ ► produced a major new product design outside china for the first go around so basically mark thinks that it
00:57:46 ◼ ► would be difficult and maybe apple wouldn't feel comfortable with the work needed to get these
00:57:51 ◼ ► products exactly right trusting new supply chains and new factories there are plants in india that
00:57:57 ◼ ► are currently being built that would be necessary to increase volume of production that can meet this
00:58:02 ◼ ► 60 million unit goal let alone the new infrastructure required to produce say a folding iphone
00:58:09 ◼ ► so first off i wanted to mention one of the ways you do this is the the places that india's india built
00:58:18 ◼ ► iphones are shipping to start getting china built iphones instead so you can move the production around
00:58:23 ◼ ► because they don't have necessarily the tariffs that the united states has so that's part of what you
00:58:27 ◼ ► could do so you don't necessarily need to you can move that there's a shell game there where you move
00:58:31 ◼ ► those into china and then take the india phones and then you ship them to the u.s and you do it like
00:58:35 ◼ ► that i i appreciate that that this seems this seems like a big ramp up uh so yeah you you you've got to
00:58:44 ◼ ► wonder um how much of this is real how much of this is sending messages to the u.s and china about what
00:58:54 ◼ ► apple's trying to do china and india by the way are kind of adversaries right like that's interesting
00:59:00 ◼ ► and there was that story i think you've got a do you have a link to this in there that the uh
00:59:04 ◼ ► the idea that that a lot of the equipment that is required to build these factories comes from china
00:59:11 ◼ ► yep and that they're the information right had had that report that that they set up somebody foxconn
00:59:17 ◼ ► maybe somebody set up like a fake company in vietnam who took import of all of the manufacturing
00:59:24 ◼ ► things and then just turned it around and sent it to the fox on cap apple factory chinese so got
00:59:30 ◼ ► quote foxconn has seen approval times from chinese authorities for exporting iphone making equipment
00:59:34 ◼ ► from its factories to those in india rise from two weeks to as long as four months they're also
00:59:39 ◼ ► rejecting some export applications of our explanation so they've been creating these fake companies to move
00:59:44 ◼ ► the stuff around right which is now the jig is up sort of on that and we'll see but but this is
00:59:49 ◼ ► the point here is that that this is the first step of chinese resistance to apple manufacturing
00:59:55 ◼ ► outside of china is that the parts that you need to build the factories also need to come from china at
01:00:02 ◼ ► this point and that's the this is the story of all the tariffs and about supply chains and things like
01:00:07 ◼ ► that is you're like oh just built a factory in the u.s but it's like way more complicated than this and
01:00:12 ◼ ► this is a great example is well we need to get out of china let's build a factory somewhere else
01:00:16 ◼ ► okay how do we build a factory somewhere else well first you need all the equipment from china
01:00:21 ◼ ► okay uh then so so you know this is look this is the tim cook thing right this is why tim cook is still
01:00:30 ◼ ► the ceo of apple is this is his job his job is how do you benefit apple in and try to hedge against
01:00:40 ◼ ► whatever is going to happen in the future and get the u.s to do what you want and get china to do what you
01:00:46 ◼ ► want and and and get india to do what you want and get china not to be mad at india and the u.s to make
01:00:52 ◼ ► it impossible for you to get what you want like all of these things are in play and and the good news for
01:00:59 ◼ ► apple i guess is that the tariffs and things like that allow it to have an excuse to try to expand where
01:01:06 ◼ ► it produces and what it's not trying to do is get out of china and i think that that's important it's
01:01:11 ◼ ► trying to supplement production elsewhere because of the issues between the u.s and china in terms of
01:01:17 ◼ ► trade but still if you're china you're like yeah but we like it better when it's all here so you drag
01:01:23 ◼ ► your feet you slow it down you make it difficult um to it's i mean yeah this is this is international
01:01:29 ◼ ► intrigue is what this is yeah i my my conspiracy theory on this is that this is not real um and
01:01:36 ◼ ► that this is apple trying to spook china on behalf of the u.s government to come to the table and
01:01:42 ◼ ► negotiate the post-tariff stupidity that china and america are now in because china's not backing down
01:01:49 ◼ ► america looks like it's kind of backing down a little bit now against the tariffs because china's
01:01:54 ◼ ► kind of refusing to back down and i have no doubt i know the fact that apple is trying to diversify
01:02:00 ◼ ► but this significant this quickly and publicly suggests to me that something's going on here
01:02:07 ◼ ► yeah at a time when it's also being asking elizabeth warren right as written to tim cook
01:02:14 ◼ ► to say like hey how'd you get that exemption uh which i don't know if like it's just i don't think
01:02:22 ◼ ► it's just tim cook here but nevertheless like he is obviously we know when he's clear that he has been
01:02:27 ◼ ► having conversations with the administration i would not be surprised if this is a bit a part of of a
01:02:35 ◼ ► leverage that's being placed it just seems to me to be very quick out of nowhere to like well to do this
01:02:43 ◼ ► when the uh not the only way this is not the only way to deal with this the key way for apple to deal
01:02:50 ◼ ► with this problem is to get the u.s to not do it right that's actually where they maybe have the biggest
01:02:56 ◼ ► leverage right to say don't do these tariffs in this way and and work that rather than being like
01:03:02 ◼ ► we're now going to make every single iphone in india instead of china it feels it feels very
01:03:10 ◼ ► very significant incredibly fast and also as we've just spoken about unbelievably difficult to try and
01:03:17 ◼ ► pull off so so i think given that you have people who follow apple much more closely like mark german
01:03:25 ◼ ► and wayne ma saying basically this can't happen like not the way it's described right and i that was my
01:03:33 ◼ ► initial reaction is like i there is no way that they can reply supplant all of that and german makes
01:03:38 ◼ ► the good point too a lot of their manufacturing is focused on kind of like the trailing models models
01:03:44 ◼ ► that we're fairly familiar with and not the cutting edge where they have to build whole new techniques
01:03:49 ◼ ► and and so like a folding phone you know is not is probably not going to be built in india right away
01:03:55 ◼ ► right that's probably not going to happen like the most complex iphone maybe ever like that you're just
01:04:01 ◼ ► yeah like hey we'll just use the new factory like oh yeah exactly it's there's some real problems there
01:04:06 ◼ ► i so you combine that with the fact that this was a financial times report and a financial times is a
01:04:13 ◼ ► absolutely legitimate upstanding publication it known throughout the business world kind of like
01:04:20 ◼ ► the wall street journal i'll just say a lot of reports about apple that come in in those sorts of
01:04:26 ◼ ► places are put there by apple right i don't know that for sure but like i think we've seen it before
01:04:32 ◼ ► that when apple wants to set a story this often is where they go to a respectable business source and
01:04:41 ◼ ► whether it's a a very targeted leak or whether it's a kind of surreptitious like it wouldn't be so bad if
01:04:49 ◼ ► you just mentioned this to this person at the financial times but like that's certainly this is too big a
01:04:55 ◼ ► decision to be leaked this kind of decision right now is happening at the top of the company nobody's
01:05:03 ◼ ► leaking it up from from up there no this is this is the kind of thing if somebody somebody probably was
01:05:08 ◼ ► given permission to leak this yes and and especially since it seems a little outlandish it that's right
01:05:15 ◼ ► that's how we i think should probably read this is apple wants the world to know that apple is willing
01:05:21 ◼ ► to move all its iphone production for the u.s to india um at for a reason right and and that reason
01:05:30 ◼ ► probably has to do with china you know and the u.s and then again we're back to international intrigue
01:05:36 ◼ ► it's saying like even to me and you and to everybody else that's writing about this that is not the
01:05:41 ◼ ► financial times this doesn't seem plausible right that if somebody came to you and said this
01:05:46 ◼ ► you would write it in such a way to be like i heard this but i don't know but if someone of note
01:05:58 ◼ ► tim cook it's not tim cook but like i don't know who it would be right but like if you had
01:06:03 ◼ ► someone of craig videregi's level say or say it was um what is this jeff williams jeff williams
01:06:10 ◼ ► comes to you at the financial times and says we're doing this then you write about it because
01:06:14 ◼ ► jeff williams just told you it right but if you've heard it from someone of a signal i don't know if
01:06:19 ◼ ► i'm writing that story because it doesn't it just seems impossible but if it's come from the right
01:06:26 ◼ ► source you'll write it because they've told you it and so if they're telling you it they either
01:06:33 ◼ ► believe it or they want you to write the story and it's you know it's i get it is what i'm saying
01:06:38 ◼ ► it's like there are different levels that you would then write the story because it just it just
01:06:42 ◼ ► doesn't it doesn't pass the sniff test to me that this could happen in the way it's been described
01:06:49 ◼ ► that by the end of next year where a factory is still being built right it is being built right now
01:06:57 ◼ ► that by the end of next year every iphone in america is made in this new facility it just doesn't
01:07:03 ◼ ► seem plausible to me it's also possible that this is something that's going down in the production
01:07:08 ◼ ► group at apple where they have again it's set a goal it's set a goal so you tell everybody here's
01:07:13 ◼ ► our goal and then it's in the financial times and like you know we can do like yada yada yada it's in
01:07:20 ◼ ► the financial times but like that that is it this so we'll say we don't know but i would say this report
01:07:27 ◼ ► seems to serve a broader apple interest in making this the context of you know not quite we'll take our
01:07:34 ◼ ► ball and go home but like we are all in on producing iphones in india for the united states market
01:07:41 ◼ ► which again is not pulling out of china it's pulling united states production out of china
01:07:46 ◼ ► and yes that sends a message and changes the discussion that is presumably being had between
01:07:55 ◼ ► if this story was six months ago i would feel differently about it to how i feel about it right
01:08:03 ◼ ► now like the fact that this story is right now is what makes me so kind of like conspiratorial about it
01:08:10 ◼ ► or if this was just a thing that happened uh uncoupled from big news cycles then i would maybe
01:08:17 ◼ ► be like oh maybe they are doing this maybe this has come from a project manager somewhere but it just
01:08:22 ◼ ► feels too perfect of a story to be happening right now for me not to think that there's something going
01:08:28 ◼ ► on with it you know like that's that's the whole thing about conspiracy theories there has to be that
01:08:33 ◼ ► like little thing in there that makes you think you could believe it and for me i saw this story and
01:08:38 ◼ ► immediately my mind went to political drama like that's where i went to yeah also i would say
01:08:45 ◼ ► i think it serves apple like this moment because what if we don't know what's going to happen but what
01:08:53 ◼ ► if this tariff thing resolves in a way that's favorable for apple in the end or not too unfavorable
01:08:59 ◼ ► well great but you missed a moment the moment now is it's a crisis moment it's an oh no moment and when
01:09:08 ◼ ► we talk about apple like in our in our member discord there was just a comment about how you know apple
01:09:13 ◼ ► should have diversified years ago it's like well yeah everybody knew that but the financials make
01:09:18 ◼ ► it hard the supply chain makes it hard and the politics makes it hard because you're telling china
01:09:23 ◼ ► where we we we love you but not that much and we're going to build stuff elsewhere and so apple has used
01:09:29 ◼ ► brazil and india to build factories under the excuse of protectionism in those countries and that they
01:09:35 ◼ ► need to have they need to diversify because of that i i don't know whether china what you know how china
01:09:41 ◼ ► buys this if they buy it at all but i would say i think there's probably an advantage today to saying
01:09:47 ◼ ► we have to build in india it's not because we don't love you it's because the u.s government is
01:09:53 ◼ ► tariffing you and if they wait until the storm maybe blows over then they can't use that excuse so use it now
01:10:09 ◼ ► we have to it's not that we don't love you and we will keep using you but you know it's not you
01:10:14 ◼ ► it's not me either it's that guy but it's that you gotta understand you gotta understand we gotta
01:10:21 ◼ ► we gotta do this for you know for reasons political reasons i just i'm just saying it's easier to it's
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01:11:25 ◼ ► additional content every week uh this week i want to ask jason how he uses his terminal e-ink screen
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01:12:08 ◼ ► imitiaz asks jason has mentioned a few times about his photo collection being backed up locally does he
01:12:17 ◼ ► recommend any settings in particular for photos to do this or is it fairly straightforward like what do
01:12:23 ◼ ► you do for local backup for of your photos i have a mac with a big hard drive that's set to um download all
01:12:32 ◼ ► um and then i back that up using backblaze and time machine okay that's so you're doing it you're doing it in the
01:12:43 ◼ ► photos apps in the photos app you're like download everything don't just download all stuff and then in i guess in
01:12:50 ◼ ► finder you're you're you're making sure that the photos library is photos library is just a file um so i have that set you know that's in that
01:13:01 ◼ ► backs up um and it backs up to backblaze and also i have a couple of giant external drives that i plug in
01:13:07 ◼ ► every so often and run a backup on um that backs them backs all those files up onto the external hard drives
01:13:15 ◼ ► so i've got it plus it's an icloud so and you don't feel the need to i don't know somehow back up the files
01:13:23 ◼ ► outside of the photo library container like i don't know they're all in the photo they're all in the photo
01:13:29 ◼ ► library container yeah i'm not i don't have any any desire to do that now yeah i guess that's what i'm
01:13:36 ◼ ► doing without the super duper part i guess it just it all goes i have a time machine and i have backblaze
01:13:43 ◼ ► and i have uh yeah that's how i backup mine and i i also have all of my photos downloaded to my iphone
01:13:53 ◼ ► i'm taking a lot more pictures yeah it's a lot of space i've taken thousands of pictures in the last
01:13:59 ◼ ► couple of weeks but i bought the one terabyte iphone this year for that reason uh because i knew that my
01:14:03 ◼ ► photos library was about to exponentially grow yep an anonymous question oscar wrote in and said
01:14:10 ◼ ► i am considering purchasing an m4 max max studio by the end of the year is it anticipated that apple
01:14:16 ◼ ► will increase the prices of its recently launched max should i make a purchase immediately
01:14:21 ◼ ► i think if you've made a decision if you have the money available i i think i think i i i am still of the
01:14:32 ◼ ► mind that the world is too complicated right now to assume what prices will be in two months and that if
01:14:40 ◼ ► you know what you want if you can afford to do it now i would i would do it now i don't know why you
01:14:50 ◼ ► i mean easy for me to say i i think it's going to be less likely that apple updates the prices of
01:15:04 ◼ ► existing shipping products versus introduces new products at higher prices but hard to predict
01:15:13 ◼ ► anything in the world right now so i i think i agree with mike also that max studio is brand new
01:15:21 ◼ ► yeah it just came out yeah now's the best time to buy it there's not going to be another one for at
01:15:26 ◼ ► least a year and probably more so if you have the the wherewithal to do it now instead of at the end of
01:15:32 ◼ ► the year i just go ahead and do it yeah i i mean i'm also the mind of like if you've made the decision
01:15:38 ◼ ► i don't know why you haven't just done it already i don't know what i'm waiting for anyway it's not in
01:15:42 ◼ ► the budget and they're waiting for next year yeah but if you're like i get it if you feel confident
01:15:47 ◼ ► that you will be able to get there if you're able to do something you know maybe there's some kind of
01:15:51 ◼ ► financing option which is good for you or whatever i mean i would make that i would do it but because i
01:15:59 ◼ ► just i know what you're saying about shipping products and i know that they would love to avoid
01:16:03 ◼ ► it but let's just imagine that the 140 tariff comes into play they're not eating that now's a good time
01:16:10 ◼ ► i mean again last fall max studio came out which like i it's it's a great time to get it if you if you can
01:16:17 ◼ ► buy it and if not now then when you as soon as you can afford it i would probably buy it just because
01:16:25 ◼ ► this is kind of related to what we're talking about earlier but let's get a stake in the ground
01:16:30 ◼ ► on it sean asks do you believe we will one day see a touchscreen computer running mac os
01:16:35 ◼ ► i do because mark german said there's a macbook pro with a touchscreen in the works and i believe
01:16:40 ◼ ► mark german sources i think that there is and i think that the the features that we're seeing and
01:16:45 ◼ ► the design stuff that's going to happen is all probably going to point toward that product that they
01:16:50 ◼ ► they it would be it would seem unlikely that apple would do design and development work now
01:16:56 ◼ ► not thinking of the fact that they were going to have a touchscreen enabled macbook pro in a year or
01:17:01 ◼ ► two i think the next macbook pro like the next design change of the macbook pro yeah is going to have a
01:17:08 ◼ ► touchscreen oled and it will have cellular support i think they're gonna go big with it i think that's
01:17:14 ◼ ► a pretty good bet i think that's what it will get so yeah i i absolutely think that they will do this
01:17:18 ◼ ► um i think it is way overdue i mean you don't this doesn't have to be ipad os like it's just nice to
01:17:26 ◼ ► have a touchscreen like in a laptop like it is actually a nice thing if you've never used it i
01:17:31 ◼ ► know why you could think why would i do that but i've used touchscreen laptops and i really like that
01:17:35 ◼ ► experience but again it's like if you've ever used an ipad in a keyboard case it's a touchscreen laptop
01:17:41 ◼ ► so like you know it's nice to be able to sometimes reach up and swipe on the screen or tap something on
01:17:45 ◼ ► the screen rather than move a mouse cursor like sometimes it's much faster to just go because
01:17:51 ◼ ► you have direct motor control as opposed to like go down here move the thing so you know that you know
01:17:58 ◼ ► that uh that phrase every day new children are born who don't who've never seen the flintstones yeah
01:18:03 ◼ ► you know that same of the idea that like time marches on well every day new children are born who
01:18:09 ◼ ► think that touching a screen is the primary way you interact with technology yeah every year there
01:18:15 ◼ ► are more and more adult iphone users iphone buyers uh who who have they love their iphones and then they
01:18:23 ◼ ► get a computer and they expect we already see this but it's only going to be more that they expect that
01:18:29 ◼ ► you could touch that screen and so you know you need to do it and apple not doing it to now i mean
01:18:35 ◼ ► i i think again there's some dogma there but yeah i um because we had a touchscreen chromebook for a while
01:18:42 ◼ ► and like being able to reach up and just scroll because you're not your hands aren't on the keyboard
01:18:48 ◼ ► and you're just sitting there and you just scroll you know i never used it as a primary interaction
01:18:53 ◼ ► but it was nice to have and it also opens up the ability to do things like fold the keyboard back
01:18:59 ◼ ► go into a tablet mode use an apple pencil there's lots of other things i'm sure that they've they
01:19:03 ◼ ► if apple's going to do this apple's going to have some magic you know secret apple stuff that they do
01:19:08 ◼ ► as a part of it too so it's a that's a yes i understand the desire to want to do some work to mac os
01:19:15 ◼ ► rather than just put a touchscreen on it like i understand the desire to do that which might be
01:19:19 ◼ ► one of the reasons that this project has not come to fruition yet but i i do think they'll do it and
01:19:34 ◼ ► jason who is not me wants to know since you're such a fan of open wheel racing in the form of formula
01:19:41 ◼ ► one how do you feel about indycar and specifically the indianapolis 500 i live in indianapolis see i
01:19:47 ◼ ► told you it wasn't me and the race is getting ready to take over the city for the entire month with all
01:19:51 ◼ ► of its activities do you watch or care about the race i don't know much about indycar uh in in
01:19:58 ◼ ► getting this question i did some googling and found out that something that i thought was the case was
01:20:04 ◼ ► which is that all indycar tracks were ovals like nascar um and that is based on me knowing about
01:20:12 ◼ ► the indianapolis 500 because i know how big of a spectacle that is and yes the indianapolis motor
01:20:18 ◼ ► speedway raceway um i think it's just an oval and i'm not interested in that personally but it's not
01:20:25 ◼ ► the case for indycar that there are there are some simple track layouts but there are also more
01:20:30 ◼ ► complicated track layouts which may be a little more interested in it actually because i was wondering
01:20:33 ◼ ► like what are those races like from and how the cars are built to be able to be interesting and fast
01:20:41 ◼ ► and competitive in kind of like very simple track layout but also tracks that are closer to formula one
01:20:48 ◼ ► tracks all of this to say though i do not have time in my life for another sport because i spend quite a
01:20:54 ◼ ► lot of time focused on formula one um i'm more interested in it than i was before but i'm i don't
01:21:01 ◼ ► have the time for it right now but this i was happy to get this question because i was able to to get rid
01:21:07 ◼ ► of some preconceived notions i had about indycar there there was a time when the indianapolis 500 was
01:21:13 ◼ ► the number one thing like number one auto race in america and nascar rose to eclipse it um as a kid
01:21:23 ◼ ► i always watched the indy 500 um and i still if i'm around on memorial day weekend i will make an effort
01:21:32 ◼ ► to watch it it's literally mike you found it it's the one car race i will watch a year yeah it's the only
01:21:38 ◼ ► one i will watch and some of that is absolutely tradition uh i i watch it and it's fun and i am
01:21:44 ◼ ► also reminded that i don't actually want to ever watch more of it of more motorsports than that but
01:21:51 ◼ ► it but it is a thing that i enjoy watching i think the indy 500 is still gets the largest audience of
01:21:56 ◼ ► any like for a single thing i think it's like they get like 350 000 people go there to watch it oh yeah
01:22:02 ◼ ► certainly in person that's a that's a that's a real thing and uh yeah it's it's i i think it's fun um
01:22:09 ◼ ► the technology is really as you know from formula one right the technology has has really um transformed
01:22:14 ◼ ► that sport um it is yeah it's it's it's it's fallen sort of indycar has sort of fallen on hard times
01:22:22 ◼ ► because yeah nascar sort of eclipsed it and also i think there's this thing where f1 has become much
01:22:27 ◼ ► more popular yeah in america it's a little bit like the challenge of losing out it's good i think
01:22:31 ◼ ► it's good for football or soccer that uh we can americans have access to like i just watch premier
01:22:38 ◼ ► league games and it's not a problem and the buddhist league is on and like there are there are and uh
01:22:42 ◼ ► uh syria is on like you can get european football leagues in america now and just watch those and
01:22:49 ◼ ► that's good it does make it harder if you're mls because mls you know is trying to do american soccer
01:22:58 ◼ ► but they have to compete on tv with the best soccer in the world and it's a little like that where the
01:23:06 ◼ ► success of formula one in america has been uh rough for uh indycar in america so you know that but anyway
01:23:15 ◼ ► i will i will uh i'll turn it on it's a it's a fun uh it's a fun thing to to have on on a memorial
01:23:21 ◼ ► day weekend if i'm not doing something else absolutely if you would like to send in your
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