ATP

00:00:00 ◼   ► So I mentioned last week that I had to go to the bank to get cash for the restaurant because I had never had to deal with cash before. Turns out I did, in fact, do that wrong.

00:00:12 ◼   ► Did you get Monopoly money?

00:00:14 ◼   ► I would like to state for the record that Marco put into our internal show notes, pre-show, Marco went to the bank wrong. How did you go to the bank wrong?

00:00:25 ◼   ► What do you think I might have forgotten exists?

00:00:28 ◼   ► You did not pass go and did not collect $200?

00:00:30 ◼   ► Withdrawal slips or something equivalent?

00:00:33 ◼   ► Coins.

00:00:34 ◼   ► Oh.

00:00:36 ◼   ► I got no change.

00:00:39 ◼   ► So I had to go back today a second time like, oh, I also need coins to fill the drawers.

00:00:46 ◼   ► Did you get pennies?

00:00:47 ◼   ► I thought about it, but like, you know, to get pennies, what that means, like a roll of pennies is 50 cents.

00:00:53 ◼   ► So what that means is I spent $2. I got four rolls of pennies. Like, we'll see if I ever actually use them.

00:00:57 ◼   ► So we'll see.

00:00:59 ◼   ► But, you know, maybe they'll be illegal or banned by the time I actually, you know, open for full service.

00:01:04 ◼   ► Who knows? We'll find out.

00:01:06 ◼   ► But yes, I did indeed get pennies because it turns out because coins are generally worth so little, getting anything but quarters costs basically nothing.

00:01:14 ◼   ► And even the quarters aren't that expensive, especially once you get down to like, you know, dimes, nickels, pennies.

00:01:19 ◼   ► These are very inexpensive.

00:01:22 ◼   ► Like, I spent less than $100 to fill all the change that we are probably going to need for a long time.

00:01:27 ◼   ► Can you clarify your, your, uh, the semantics of that statement?

00:01:30 ◼   ► Don't the coins cost the amount indicated by their denomination?

00:01:35 ◼   ► Yes, but it turns out since coins are worth so little relative to rectangles of paper and cotton and stuff, it turns out like you can, you can get, you can have a lot of change for like $70.

00:01:46 ◼   ► Right, so you can get like four quarters by just paying a dollar, right?

00:01:49 ◼   ► Yeah, it's amazing how that works.

00:01:51 ◼   ► I think we're following your math here.

00:01:52 ◼   ► What did you end up carrying the cash and coinage in?

00:01:56 ◼   ► Did you just put it in like a Peak Design, well, maybe not a Peak Design backpack, that's a little canceled right now.

00:02:00 ◼   ► But did you put it in some sort of backpack or did you take a duffel or what?

00:02:04 ◼   ► Here's the funny thing.

00:02:04 ◼   ► So when I went to get cash, I had brought my, yes, Peak Design everyday backpack.

00:02:09 ◼   ► You know what?

00:02:09 ◼   ► I'm not going to let one murderer ruin my backpack.

00:02:13 ◼   ► It's a great backpack, okay?

00:02:16 ◼   ► They're all good dogs, Brian.

00:02:17 ◼   ► It wasn't really a backpack-centric murder either, so I feel like the backpack is fine.

00:02:21 ◼   ► No, and like, you know, what kind of shoes was the guy wearing?

00:02:24 ◼   ► Are those ruined too?

00:02:25 ◼   ► Like, no, it doesn't matter, right?

00:02:26 ◼   ► Was he wearing Hanes underwear?

00:02:27 ◼   ► Now you can't wear Hanes underwear anymore?

00:02:28 ◼   ► Right, he was wearing a cotton t-shirt.

00:02:30 ◼   ► You can't wear cotton.

00:02:31 ◼   ► Anyway, so no, I'm not going to let that ruin my backpack.

00:02:34 ◼   ► It's a great backpack.

00:02:35 ◼   ► So I went in there with a giant backpack to get what was not a giant amount of cash, as it turns out, volume one.

00:02:42 ◼   ► Today, I went in there to get change and I had nothing.

00:02:45 ◼   ► I'm like, I'm just getting changed.

00:02:46 ◼   ► Coins are heavy.

00:02:48 ◼   ► It turns out.

00:02:49 ◼   ► Yes.

00:02:49 ◼   ► So I walked out.

00:02:50 ◼   ► It's like they're made of metal.

00:02:51 ◼   ► I walked out with like, I just put them in like, you know, I was wearing like a light jacket.

00:02:55 ◼   ► I just put them in my jacket pockets and I'm like, you know, lumbering out the door.

00:03:01 ◼   ► Like, I'm doing every part of this wrong.

00:03:02 ◼   ► Oh my gosh.

00:03:04 ◼   ► You're jingling like a school janitor with a too big key chain.

00:03:07 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:03:08 ◼   ► Like I had my kid with me and as we're walking out, he's like, it looks like we're robbing

00:03:11 ◼   ► the bank.

00:03:12 ◼   ► I'm like, don't joke about that.

00:03:13 ◼   ► You're the world's worst bank robbers.

00:03:15 ◼   ► Don't ask for change.

00:03:16 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:03:16 ◼   ► We rob the bank for 70 bucks worth of coins.

00:03:19 ◼   ► You can't escape quickly because you're too weighed down.

00:03:22 ◼   ► That's gracious.

00:03:25 ◼   ► All right.

00:03:26 ◼   ► So you've made, you've, you've had some learnings as, as the business people say, you've learned

00:03:30 ◼   ► some lessons, uh, and hopefully you won't need to get cash at least for a little while.

00:03:34 ◼   ► I presume.

00:03:34 ◼   ► I have no idea.

00:03:36 ◼   ► We'll find out.

00:03:37 ◼   ► We'll find out.

00:03:37 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:03:38 ◼   ► Take a penny, leave a penny.

00:03:39 ◼   ► All right.

00:03:41 ◼   ► Let's do some follow-up.

00:03:42 ◼   ► We have a lot of follow-up to get through.

00:03:44 ◼   ► In fact, I, uh, asked John to cut some of the follow-up and he was very gracious about

00:03:48 ◼   ► it.

00:03:48 ◼   ► Um, so we'll see, maybe if we can plow through it, we'll, we'll make John's night by, by getting

00:03:52 ◼   ► through all of it, but we'll see what happens.

00:03:53 ◼   ► Uh, and I'm going to start by ruining.

00:03:55 ◼   ► John's night by doing vision pro corner.

00:03:57 ◼   ► Uh, we have a few quick pieces of, uh, information to talk about.

00:04:01 ◼   ► First of all, there's a new adventure episode.

00:04:02 ◼   ► Adventure is one of the series, like it's kind of sort of TV series that, uh, Apple has put

00:04:08 ◼   ► together for vision pro and there's a new adventure episode called deep water solo.

00:04:12 ◼   ► This is about a, uh, rock climber, mountain climber fellow who is climbing up the side of

00:04:18 ◼   ► a cliff in somewhere in Spain.

00:04:21 ◼   ► I forgot already.

00:04:21 ◼   ► Um, but it is very well done.

00:04:23 ◼   ► And it's again, like eight to 10 minutes, something in that neck of the woods.

00:04:26 ◼   ► And I really enjoyed it.

00:04:27 ◼   ► I like these ones that have a bit more of a story to them.

00:04:30 ◼   ► Uh, the rodeo one from a few weeks back, I don't remember if that was an adventure episode

00:04:34 ◼   ► or something else, but, um, that one, I feel like they tried to put a story on it, but it

00:04:38 ◼   ► didn't really land.

00:04:39 ◼   ► Uh, this one, they, they did a pretty good job of the story.

00:04:41 ◼   ► And one of the things I really liked about it.

00:04:42 ◼   ► So, I mean, that's not really much of a spoiler.

00:04:44 ◼   ► This guy's trying to scale a cliff.

00:04:46 ◼   ► And one of the fun things about the vision pro is what with it being 3d, they're, they're

00:04:51 ◼   ► doing like an animation or like a, an overlay on, uh, it might've been a rendering.

00:04:56 ◼   ► Maybe it was a photo of the rock cliff and showing where he's going to scale the rock cliff.

00:05:01 ◼   ► And you can see that these renderings, like it's very obvious they're three, they're in

00:05:05 ◼   ► 3d space, right?

00:05:06 ◼   ► Like there's a path, a line going up the rock cliff that's jiggy, jaggy and a dashed line

00:05:10 ◼   ► where he needs to jump somewhere.

00:05:12 ◼   ► And, uh, in, in, you can see that that's floating above the rock face.

00:05:15 ◼   ► And is that a big deal?

00:05:16 ◼   ► No, absolutely not.

00:05:17 ◼   ► But is it neat?

00:05:18 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:05:18 ◼   ► It's kind of neat.

00:05:19 ◼   ► Uh, so you can check that out if you're interested, uh, Marco, I know you're going to be pausing

00:05:22 ◼   ► the show in order to put on your vision pro that you probably haven't touched in

00:05:25 ◼   ► three months in order to try it.

00:05:26 ◼   ► Well, I might touch it for the next item.

00:05:29 ◼   ► Uh, well, the, uh, maybe not the next item, but the one after.

00:05:31 ◼   ► So, uh, spatial gallery is our next item.

00:05:33 ◼   ► That is the vision OS exclusive app that is, uh, only in the beta for now.

00:05:39 ◼   ► It was not in the first beta.

00:05:40 ◼   ► It is in the second.

00:05:41 ◼   ► And I think we're on the third beta now.

00:05:42 ◼   ► Um, I wanted to very briefly talk about it.

00:05:44 ◼   ► This is, it was billed as Apple giving us more spatial content.

00:05:49 ◼   ► Now I know I do this every time, but it's important to understand the difference.

00:05:52 ◼   ► Immersive is what we were just talking about where you look around and the perspective of

00:05:56 ◼   ► the camera is changing.

00:05:57 ◼   ► You're kind of controlling the camera, if you will, because you're looking around a

00:06:01 ◼   ► 180 degree scene, right?

00:06:03 ◼   ► Spatial is when you have a rectangle with depth and it's honest to goodness depth as far as

00:06:09 ◼   ► you can tell, but it's just a rectangle with depth.

00:06:11 ◼   ► If you look around, you're looking away from that rectangle that with depth.

00:06:15 ◼   ► And so anyway, the spatial gallery app, my two second review, it really is just a gallery.

00:06:21 ◼   ► There's almost no Chrome to the app whatsoever.

00:06:23 ◼   ► It's just a series of videos and images, all of which have at least some amounts of spatial

00:06:27 ◼   ► content.

00:06:28 ◼   ► Some of the individual, so there's these pains that you swoop through the air, right?

00:06:33 ◼   ► There are individual pains for each of the different gallery items, pictures, videos,

00:06:38 ◼   ► whatever, but some of these pains are actually kind of like Instagram stories where they'll

00:06:44 ◼   ► show one photo for a little bit and then another photo for a little bit, and then it'll automatically

00:06:47 ◼   ► advance to the next photo for a little bit.

00:06:48 ◼   ► So as an example of that, they had some behind the scenes stills from Severance, which by the

00:06:55 ◼   ► way, I am now caught up on and is real good.

00:06:57 ◼   ► No spoilers, no spoilers.

00:06:58 ◼   ► No spoilers, no spoilers.

00:06:59 ◼   ► It's real good though.

00:07:00 ◼   ► So they had some behind the scenes stills from Severance.

00:07:05 ◼   ► They were neat, like nothing dramatic, but it was still neat to see.

00:07:10 ◼   ► There's no playback controls that I could tell.

00:07:13 ◼   ► Like even when you're watching a short video, it's just, that's it.

00:07:15 ◼   ► That's the whole thing.

00:07:17 ◼   ► It's also kind of funny because the audio changes if you're looking at it full screen versus in

00:07:22 ◼   ► like a pane, you can blow these up to be more full screen and the audio sounds different.

00:07:27 ◼   ► This is similar to being on like a FaceTime call when you're in an environment or rather

00:07:30 ◼   ► than just, you know, looking at floating heads.

00:07:32 ◼   ► I loved that there were some basically advertisements, like one of the first things in the list is

00:07:39 ◼   ► a video for Red Bull.

00:07:40 ◼   ► And at the top, there's a little pill that says, you know, open the Red Bull app or download

00:07:44 ◼   ► and open the Red Bull app or whatever the case may be.

00:07:46 ◼   ► And I just think it's kind of funny.

00:07:47 ◼   ► It's like, it's like Price is Right all over again.

00:07:49 ◼   ► Like the, you know, the greatest trick the devil ever played was convincing, convincing

00:07:52 ◼   ► us that Price is Right wasn't an hour long commercial.

00:07:54 ◼   ► Well, it's a similar thing, right?

00:07:56 ◼   ► Where this is, it's, it is cool, new, interesting content.

00:08:00 ◼   ► And yet it's still also advertisements in part.

00:08:04 ◼   ► Uh, there was a really good one on Porsche where they had, I forget the model, but like

00:08:08 ◼   ► a particular, uh, early, early, early race car.

00:08:11 ◼   ► And they showed a couple of videos of that, which was really neat.

00:08:14 ◼   ► All of this was dated the 3rd of March, if I'm not mistaken.

00:08:17 ◼   ► And the impression that Apple gave was that they would be doing regular content updates,

00:08:23 ◼   ► just like they gave in February of 2024.

00:08:26 ◼   ► When we got our vision pros, it is now the 12th of March and there's nothing new.

00:08:31 ◼   ► I mean, I respect that they're trying in theory, but come on, you got a new app for it.

00:08:36 ◼   ► Let's do it.

00:08:36 ◼   ► Let's move more stuff, more stuff.

00:08:38 ◼   ► We'll see.

00:08:39 ◼   ► That being said, and now I have Marco's attention.

00:08:41 ◼   ► Uh, they have just announced either earlier today or yesterday, I forget as we record,

00:08:45 ◼   ► but it doesn't matter.

00:08:46 ◼   ► Uh, there's going to be a roughly 30 minute Metallica immersive special, uh, reading from,

00:08:53 ◼   ► I believe their press release, this project marks a new foray into immersive technology

00:08:57 ◼   ► using ultra high resolution, 180 degree video in spatial audio to give fans unprecedented access

00:09:02 ◼   ► from vantage points as close up as the snake pit to wide angle views.

00:09:05 ◼   ► It brings the live show to a whole new level.

00:09:08 ◼   ► And to achieve this Apple built a custom stage plot featuring 14 immersive video cameras using

00:09:14 ◼   ► a mix of stabilized cameras, cable suspended cameras, and a remote controlled camera dolly

00:09:19 ◼   ► system that moved around the stage.

00:09:22 ◼   ► Hello, sign me up.

00:09:24 ◼   ► It continues filmed during our final M 72 stop.

00:09:27 ◼   ► Oh, I'm sorry.

00:09:27 ◼   ► This is from Metallica's website, isn't it?

00:09:29 ◼   ► Uh, filmed during our final M 72 stop of 2024 Mexico city.

00:09:32 ◼   ► It features, uh, full performances, whiplash one and hello, Hokies enter Sandman all captured

00:09:38 ◼   ► exclusively in Apple immersive video.

00:09:41 ◼   ► Holy pants.

00:09:42 ◼   ► I want this in my life.

00:09:44 ◼   ► I want it now.

00:09:45 ◼   ► And as it turns out, it will be here this coming Friday as we record this.

00:09:47 ◼   ► I am excited.

00:09:48 ◼   ► Can we pirate it?

00:09:49 ◼   ► Deep cut.

00:09:50 ◼   ► I know.

00:09:51 ◼   ► Yeah, I, I, this is great.

00:09:54 ◼   ► I think like, you know, we'll see what it, what I have some reservations.

00:09:57 ◼   ► I mean, first of all, like, you know, okay, I'm not a huge Metallica fan, but like, fine.

00:10:01 ◼   ► I actually want to see this because what I've been saying for months is concerts and events

00:10:06 ◼   ► and theater and stuff like that in vision pro would be great.

00:10:09 ◼   ► My, so on one hand, I'm very happy to see this.

00:10:13 ◼   ► I am a little concerned about like, what choices did they make for production?

00:10:18 ◼   ► Like how much jumping between cameras are we going to get?

00:10:21 ◼   ► How much movement of the camera are we going to get?

00:10:23 ◼   ► What I think I want is basically a fixed camera.

00:10:28 ◼   ► Like from the perspective of being a little bit above a really good seat in the audience,

00:10:33 ◼   ► like a, like a, you know, near the front of the stage, a little bit higher than the audience.

00:10:37 ◼   ► So no one's heads in your way, but like, basically I want the experience of being there.

00:10:43 ◼   ► And I think what they will probably end up doing for the most part is overproducing everything.

00:10:49 ◼   ► Cause that's Apple style.

00:10:50 ◼   ► Apple's very overproduced.

00:10:51 ◼   ► Um, and I don't know, you know, how much creative control Metallica had versus Apple's usual

00:10:56 ◼   ► production team.

00:10:57 ◼   ► Who knows?

00:10:57 ◼   ► You know, we don't know the details, but I think this is a good step.

00:11:01 ◼   ► It is, I laughed when I read that it was just three songs.

00:11:05 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:11:05 ◼   ► I'm like, Oh, you're like another content snack, another demo, another trial.

00:11:10 ◼   ► Like, come on, like do the whole concert.

00:11:14 ◼   ► You set all that up for three songs.

00:11:17 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:11:17 ◼   ► I could not agree more.

00:11:18 ◼   ► That's a content snack is such a great turn of phrase for it.

00:11:21 ◼   ► It's so incredibly true.

00:11:22 ◼   ► After three songs, the audience actually wanted to see the show.

00:11:25 ◼   ► They said, get these cameras out of here.

00:11:26 ◼   ► It could be, but I just want to reiterate what Marco said though.

00:11:30 ◼   ► Like some of my favorite stuff that I've seen in the vision pro is the, um, the, uh,

00:11:37 ◼   ► concert for one, like the Alicia keys thing.

00:11:39 ◼   ► And, uh, I think it was Raya Reva.

00:11:41 ◼   ► Forgive me.

00:11:41 ◼   ► I forget the, the artist's name, but, um, there was to, to Marco's point earlier, there

00:11:46 ◼   ► was a little bit of hopping around with different camera angles and whatnot.

00:11:50 ◼   ► However, what I really like about being immersive where you can pitch the camera for all intents

00:11:55 ◼   ► and purposes is that if they're focusing on the drummer, but the bassist is just

00:12:00 ◼   ► barely outside where you're looking right now, you know what you can do?

00:12:03 ◼   ► You can turn your head.

00:12:04 ◼   ► And as you turn your head, you can now look at the basis.

00:12:07 ◼   ► You know what I mean?

00:12:07 ◼   ► And so this is, as someone who is a concert film aficionado, one of the things that drives

00:12:13 ◼   ► me bananas about concert films is that a lot of times either somebody's soloing or maybe

00:12:18 ◼   ► some, and you want to focus on them or maybe, you know, the guitarist is soloing, but actually

00:12:23 ◼   ► quietly in the background, that bassist is killing it.

00:12:26 ◼   ► And I'd rather look at the bassist for a minute.

00:12:27 ◼   ► You know what I mean?

00:12:28 ◼   ► And this is where like the old DVD technology with like different camera angles.

00:12:31 ◼   ► Do you remember that way back in the day?

00:12:33 ◼   ► Did anybody ever actually use that besides the adult film industry?

00:12:36 ◼   ► Uh, yeah.

00:12:37 ◼   ► Phil Collins had, or I think it was Phil Collins.

00:12:39 ◼   ► I want to say it was Phil Collins.

00:12:40 ◼   ► People used it by accident probably by hitting a button on the remote.

00:12:42 ◼   ► They didn't know what it did.

00:12:43 ◼   ► Exactly.

00:12:44 ◼   ► That's so true.

00:12:44 ◼   ► Uh, but anyways, but DVDs way back in the day, kids ask your parents, uh, DVDs way back in

00:12:48 ◼   ► the day, a handful of them allowed for you to actually change the camera angle.

00:12:52 ◼   ► And it was really neat.

00:12:53 ◼   ► And so you kind of sort of get this, that same sort of thing here.

00:12:56 ◼   ► And again, like Marco said a few moments ago, a live performance, be that music or stage or

00:13:03 ◼   ► what have you, that is just screaming.

00:13:06 ◼   ► May we please see this immersive video.

00:13:09 ◼   ► And I don't know if I would go so far as to say, I agree with Marco on just give me a stationary

00:13:13 ◼   ► camera and never move it.

00:13:14 ◼   ► I think it's neat to be able to move or see different perspectives from time to time.

00:13:18 ◼   ► But I wholeheartedly agree with Marco's implied point, or maybe you said it explicitly that

00:13:21 ◼   ► I don't want to cut every three seconds.

00:13:23 ◼   ► And some of the early Apple stuff, that's what it was, was a cut, cut, cut, cut.

00:13:28 ◼   ► And by the time you get your bearings as to where your body feels like it is in 3D space,

00:13:32 ◼   ► then suddenly you're on something else.

00:13:33 ◼   ► You have to reorient yourself in a way that is kind of true in 2D, but much more dramatic

00:13:39 ◼   ► in 3D.

00:13:39 ◼   ► And so all of that to say, I'm super duper excited.

00:13:42 ◼   ► One of the first things I plan on doing Friday morning as someone who enjoys, I'm not a humongous

00:13:47 ◼   ► Metallica fan, but I like Metallica a fair bit.

00:13:49 ◼   ► And as a graduate of Virginia Tech, I need to love Enter Sandman.

00:13:53 ◼   ► And if you're not familiar, don't worry about it.

00:13:55 ◼   ► But suffice to say, I am real excited to try this on Friday.

00:13:58 ◼   ► And I'm excited that, Marco, you might actually dust off your Vision Pro and try it too.

00:14:02 ◼   ► I also, like I watch a lot of concert broadcasts, usually Fish, occasionally Goose,

00:14:06 ◼   ► occasionally somebody else, but usually those two.

00:14:08 ◼   ► And by the way, Goose is on fire on this tour.

00:14:14 ◼   ► They've had some staffing changes in their percussion section over the last year, and I

00:14:19 ◼   ► think they have ended up in a very good spot where not only, like, so the new drummer just

00:14:25 ◼   ► is working his, but he never stops moving.

00:14:29 ◼   ► You look at this guy in the video and you're like, how is he doing that for three hours?

00:14:34 ◼   ► It's amazing.

00:14:36 ◼   ► So, you know, this is like Taylor Swift level of athleticism required, like, you know, for

00:14:41 ◼   ► this drummer to be doing what he's doing for as long as he's doing it.

00:14:43 ◼   ► It's really impressive.

00:14:45 ◼   ► So Goose, oh my God, they're on fire right now.

00:14:47 ◼   ► Anyway, so when I watch a concert broadcast or a concert video, they do like switch around.

00:14:53 ◼   ► You know, they'll usually be like, you know, live switching, like somebody will be directing

00:14:58 ◼   ► the live broadcast, just like, you know, like a sports broadcast would be.

00:15:00 ◼   ► There's like a director saying, all right, take camera three, take camera two.

00:15:04 ◼   ► I don't think they ever go back and like really edit, you know, what switches they made for

00:15:09 ◼   ► like the published video.

00:15:09 ◼   ► So, you know, they're just kind of guessing, hey, right now the bass player is doing something

00:15:13 ◼   ► fun.

00:15:13 ◼   ► We'll switch to him for a few, you know, a few seconds here and there.

00:15:15 ◼   ► And now we'll go back to the guitar.

00:15:17 ◼   ► Okay, let's take a wide shot to show the lights, whatever.

00:15:19 ◼   ► So what you see is a bunch of like really close ups of the musicians that even if you

00:15:24 ◼   ► were there in a front row seat, you wouldn't have that good of a view.

00:15:27 ◼   ► And especially you'll see things like right behind the drummer or you'll see like a shot

00:15:33 ◼   ► down to see like into the keyboard player where normally the keyboard player's keyboards are

00:15:37 ◼   ► usually blocking the view from the audience of really seeing what the keyboard is doing.

00:15:41 ◼   ► That kind of concert, that kind of concert filming technique with multiple cameras and

00:15:46 ◼   ► switching between is actually very different and in some ways better than a view in person

00:15:52 ◼   ► when you're actually there in a great seat for the concert.

00:15:54 ◼   ► It's a really interesting thing and it's almost a different thing than being there in person.

00:15:59 ◼   ► But when you are there in person, you are getting the experience that the band is actually

00:16:05 ◼   ► creating and that their artistic team around them is creating like the lighting, the staging

00:16:09 ◼   ► and if there's any background decoration or movement or screens or animations, you're

00:16:15 ◼   ► getting that.

00:16:15 ◼   ► Like in the sphere, you're getting that whole thing.

00:16:18 ◼   ► That's a whole different thing.

00:16:19 ◼   ► When you have a multi-cam live directed switched between kind of format that's being broadcast,

00:16:26 ◼   ► that is a good thing in certain ways, but it is a different thing than attending the concert.

00:16:31 ◼   ► And when you are just looking at your fixed view from the audience, you are getting the entire

00:16:37 ◼   ► experience that they were trying to create at that time.

00:16:40 ◼   ► You're getting the cool light show.

00:16:42 ◼   ► You're getting like a little bit, you know, trippiness if you're in a jam band situation.

00:16:47 ◼   ► Like you're getting, if there's, you know, if you're watching some kind of over-the-top

00:16:51 ◼   ► rock band, there's like fire on the background.

00:16:52 ◼   ► You're seeing that like as it's full-scale spectacle that it was meant to be seen at.

00:16:58 ◼   ► I think if I'm watching something in an immersive video like this, I would rather have the audience

00:17:05 ◼   ► experience because that's something that, you know, the multi-cam situation where you're

00:17:10 ◼   ► seeing a quick close-up of the guitar, then quick close-up of the keyboard, then quick

00:17:13 ◼   ► close-up of the drums.

00:17:14 ◼   ► That, I think, is optimizing for what TV screens and computer screens are good at.

00:17:20 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:17:20 ◼   ► Small, high-resolution screens that are not super immersive, that are not taking up your

00:17:25 ◼   ► whole field of view, but they can display really, really great content at a smaller size.

00:17:29 ◼   ► So you can zoom in.

00:17:30 ◼   ► You can see, oh, look at that, like the way the light's reflecting off those strings.

00:17:33 ◼   ► That's pretty cool or whatever.

00:17:34 ◼   ► Oh, wow.

00:17:34 ◼   ► I didn't realize those fingers were moving that fast or, you know, whatever it is.

00:17:37 ◼   ► In the Vision Pro, the immersive format, what it can offer, is the full experience of being

00:17:45 ◼   ► there, and that's something that other screens can't do, and the Vision Pro can.

00:17:51 ◼   ► Like, if you wanted to simulate what it's like to actually be in the sphere watching those

00:17:55 ◼   ► cool animations at the ridiculous scale that they're at, you can largely do that with the

00:18:00 ◼   ► Vision Pro.

00:18:00 ◼   ► You can't even come close.

00:18:01 ◼   ► Like, I watched the videos later of some of the Phish shows that I saw at the sphere,

00:18:07 ◼   ► and the videos were great, but it was nothing like being there, not even close, because they're

00:18:12 ◼   ► trying to show what was an immersive performance in a rectangle in front of me, and it's just

00:18:18 ◼   ► not possible.

00:18:18 ◼   ► Like, it doesn't communicate it well.

00:18:20 ◼   ► I hope that Apple will take advantage of what the Vision Pro can uniquely do here, which is

00:18:26 ◼   ► show an immersive experience.

00:18:29 ◼   ► Whatever, you know, Metallica snack they've made here, it sounds like it's probably going

00:18:33 ◼   ► to be closer to, you know, the multicam kind of style.

00:18:37 ◼   ► We'll see how it goes.

00:18:39 ◼   ► I do think there's a place for that, but I hope that's not all they ever do.

00:18:43 ◼   ► I hope what they really offer also is the audience perspective.

00:18:48 ◼   ► Just give me a fixed perspective.

00:18:50 ◼   ► There's so much potential there, because people go to live events because they're going to get

00:18:56 ◼   ► that perspective when they go, and there's so many people who would love to enjoy live

00:19:00 ◼   ► events who can't go, or the events already happened in the past, or whatever.

00:19:04 ◼   ► Like, there's a huge market there.

00:19:07 ◼   ► And so, again, I will again urge Apple, this is good.

00:19:11 ◼   ► This is a start.

00:19:13 ◼   ► There is so much more here to be taken advantage of, and I hope they do.

00:19:19 ◼   ► We are sponsored this episode by Terminal.

00:19:21 ◼   ► This is the wonderful e-ink display that I was talking about back in December that I bought

00:19:25 ◼   ► myself before they were a sponsor.

00:19:27 ◼   ► Now they're sponsoring our show.

00:19:29 ◼   ► So this is what Terminal is.

00:19:30 ◼   ► This is basically a small e-ink display with a nice white case or a black case that you can

00:19:36 ◼   ► just stick on your desk or on your wall or in your kitchen or whatever, and it just displays

00:19:41 ◼   ► ambient information.

00:19:42 ◼   ► Now, because it's e-ink, it's not a glowing screen, so it looks great anywhere.

00:19:46 ◼   ► It's very, you know, kind of, you know, non-intrusive visually, and it can display whatever you want.

00:19:52 ◼   ► They have an entire gallery of what they call recipes for displaying stuff from different

00:19:56 ◼   ► services.

00:19:56 ◼   ► So, of course, you can have the basics, clocks, weather, calendars.

00:20:00 ◼   ► I have a countdown to the day the restaurant's opening, plus weather, and plus quotes from the

00:20:04 ◼   ► office online.

00:20:05 ◼   ► All of those were already in their recipe gallery for that, like, there's thousands of

00:20:09 ◼   ► things people have made for this.

00:20:10 ◼   ► So you probably don't even have to make your own.

00:20:12 ◼   ► But if you want to make your own, you can.

00:20:14 ◼   ► There's a whole open, easy API for this, and it's super easy to use.

00:20:19 ◼   ► I personally haven't, but I know Casey was looking at that.

00:20:21 ◼   ► And it's just, there's so much going on here.

00:20:23 ◼   ► They have an unbrickable pledge, which means if they ever go out of business, they open source

00:20:27 ◼   ► all their code.

00:20:28 ◼   ► You don't even have to use their infrastructure if you don't want to.

00:20:30 ◼   ► Like, they have a really great setup there.

00:20:32 ◼   ► And I love that it looks nice enough to pass the historical commission restrictions in most

00:20:39 ◼   ► households, I would say, at least according to data from the ATP hosts here.

00:20:43 ◼   ► So I love the Terminal.

00:20:45 ◼   ► It's a great looking product.

00:20:46 ◼   ► It works well.

00:20:47 ◼   ► You can hack it a bunch, or if you don't want to, or you don't have time, you can just use

00:20:51 ◼   ► what they have built in, and it's fantastic.

00:20:53 ◼   ► So check it out today.

00:20:54 ◼   ► It's $129.

00:20:56 ◼   ► And with this promo code, use code ATPFM for $15 off.

00:21:02 ◼   ► Terminal, it's T-R-M-N-L.

00:21:04 ◼   ► So basically, Terminal with no vowels in it.

00:21:06 ◼   ► Delete all the vowels.

00:21:06 ◼   ► So the domain name is useterminal.com and use code ATPFM for $15 off.

00:21:13 ◼   ► Thank you so much to Terminal for just being awesome and for sponsoring our show.

00:21:21 ◼   ► All right, let's talk iPad Air.

00:21:22 ◼   ► Apparently, the 2x base thing was a false alarm.

00:21:27 ◼   ► Tell me about this, John.

00:21:27 ◼   ► Yeah, that was something I mentioned.

00:21:29 ◼   ► The Mac rumors had said that the iPad Air 13-inch is missing the 2x base feature that the previous

00:21:34 ◼   ► version had.

00:21:34 ◼   ► But apparently, that story has been pulled.

00:21:36 ◼   ► I don't know why they didn't just update it and put a retraction on it on Mac rumors or

00:21:40 ◼   ► something.

00:21:40 ◼   ► But it seems like it was just a false alarm.

00:21:42 ◼   ► So in case anyone was worried that the 13-inch Air has a regression in this way, it seems like

00:21:46 ◼   ► no.

00:21:46 ◼   ► Additionally, we had some feedback with regard to the appeal of the iPad Air because, you

00:21:50 ◼   ► know, the three of us were kind of scratching our heads saying, why?

00:21:53 ◼   ► And John Spurlock wrote in and said, one reason I'm glad the iPad Air exists and just ordered

00:21:59 ◼   ► one is the larger screen size.

00:22:00 ◼   ► I use mine mostly for music, like sheet music, and the 13-inch makes a huge difference, as does

00:22:05 ◼   ► the $550 savings versus a similar iPad Pro.

00:22:09 ◼   ► It's because there is no 13-inch regular iPad.

00:22:11 ◼   ► That's the point there.

00:22:12 ◼   ► If you want a 13-inch, it's great that the Air exists because otherwise you'd have to buy

00:22:16 ◼   ► a Pro and they're really expensive at any size, and the 13-inch one even more so.

00:22:20 ◼   ► Ryan Manley writes, I was a big iPad Pro guy.

00:22:23 ◼   ► I've had three big ones and one small one.

00:22:25 ◼   ► I went to the M2 iPad Air last year mostly because I wanted the blue one.

00:22:28 ◼   ► I'm literal proof that colors drive buying decisions.

00:22:32 ◼   ► And yes, Face ID is the biggest thing I miss.

00:22:34 ◼   ► Are you listening, lack of colors are, at Apple?

00:22:37 ◼   ► Can we please, please have colors, please, pretty please?

00:22:41 ◼   ► Yeah, especially, man, like now that we're seeing all the iPad or the MacBook Air reviews

00:22:45 ◼   ► of Sky Blue, which is just bluish silver.

00:22:48 ◼   ► Like, oh man, what a missed opportunity.

00:22:52 ◼   ► Oh, like an actual Sky Blue one?

00:22:54 ◼   ► That would be amazing.

00:22:55 ◼   ► I currently drive a Sky Blue car.

00:22:57 ◼   ► Like, that would be great.

00:22:58 ◼   ► That would look awesome.

00:22:59 ◼   ► And it seems like they just didn't do it.

00:23:03 ◼   ► I don't know why.

00:23:04 ◼   ► I wish, oh, please, Apple, sometime soon, maybe the M5 generation, give me cellular nanotexture

00:23:12 ◼   ► and a color that's actually a color.

00:23:15 ◼   ► That would be amazing.

00:23:16 ◼   ► And again, and I think this is an important feedback from Ryan here.

00:23:19 ◼   ► Like, people often make buying decisions based solely or significantly on visual appeal, colors,

00:23:28 ◼   ► styles.

00:23:30 ◼   ► I, we know, we know people, sometimes we have been people who have bought a new Apple

00:23:35 ◼   ► thing, mostly because, you know, we wanted it.

00:23:39 ◼   ► And why do we want it?

00:23:39 ◼   ► Sometimes we wanted it because it was a cool color or a new color.

00:23:43 ◼   ► Like, you know, something cool, like anything, just give us anything.

00:23:47 ◼   ► A, it doesn't, I'm not saying every color has to be bold.

00:23:51 ◼   ► I'm saying make any color bold.

00:23:53 ◼   ► Give us one.

00:23:54 ◼   ► Seriously.

00:23:56 ◼   ► You know, I, I, you know, we bought Aaron's car like nine months ago or something like that.

00:24:01 ◼   ► And we were trying to find a car that we wanted.

00:24:03 ◼   ► And I will give you one guess.

00:24:05 ◼   ► And we worked with several different dealers during the time.

00:24:07 ◼   ► And I'll give you one guess what each dealer's first question was, you know, at, well, after,

00:24:11 ◼   ► you know, what are you looking for in terms of like what model, what color do you want?

00:24:15 ◼   ► Which shade of silver do you want?

00:24:17 ◼   ► Pretty much.

00:24:18 ◼   ► But that is almost always the first question.

00:24:20 ◼   ► And then a friend of mine was looking for an F-150 Lightning, actually, and he ended up just

00:24:25 ◼   ► getting one.

00:24:25 ◼   ► It's a really nice truck, although I'm not a truck person.

00:24:27 ◼   ► But anyways, you know, as I was kind of living vicariously through him and because I enjoy buying

00:24:32 ◼   ► cars with other people's money.

00:24:33 ◼   ► And, you know, oftentimes the question was, what color do you want?

00:24:36 ◼   ► And I feel like it's not an apples to apples comparison between a car and a computer.

00:24:42 ◼   ► Well, unless you're John buying a $15,000 computer.

00:24:44 ◼   ► But nevertheless, you know, it's still important to your point, Marco, that it makes a big difference.

00:24:51 ◼   ► And, you know, my M3 Max MacBook Pro that I'm talking to you through right now, I feel like

00:24:57 ◼   ► it was time for me to upgrade and update anyway last year, two years ago, whatever it was.

00:25:01 ◼   ► But I definitely insta-bought when I saw that there was that, you know, deep, deep black, which

00:25:06 ◼   ► granted is not a bold, vibrant color, but it just had such nostalgia for that black book that I wanted

00:25:11 ◼   ► so badly back in 2008 or thereabouts that I had to have it.

00:25:15 ◼   ► And granted, I'm kind of, you know, taking the wind out of my own sails when I'm talking about black.

00:25:18 ◼   ► But the same thing would be true.

00:25:20 ◼   ► If there was like a vibrant blue, I'd probably rock one.

00:25:23 ◼   ► And certainly, if not in the Mac, which maybe I'd be a little more conservative with the

00:25:27 ◼   ► computer, you bet your bottom that I would 100% rock a very bold blue iPhone.

00:25:33 ◼   ► And a few years ago, I think it was 13 or thereabouts, we had a reasonably decent blue iPhone Pro.

00:25:40 ◼   ► And I recently gave that to Declan as a, you know, phone without service to use as like

00:25:45 ◼   ► a noisemaker at night and whatnot.

00:25:46 ◼   ► And man, everything, every time I look at that thing, I'm just, oh man, I miss that blue.

00:25:50 ◼   ► I miss that blue so much.

00:25:51 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:25:52 ◼   ► And in defense of the, you know, the current black color on the MacBook Pros, the reason

00:25:58 ◼   ► why people went nuts for that is because it was new and it was, and it was extreme or it

00:26:06 ◼   ► was more extreme than like before that we had silver.

00:26:10 ◼   ► And silver is, you know, aluminum, great.

00:26:15 ◼   ► That's the color I usually get.

00:26:16 ◼   ► Space gray was just darker.

00:26:18 ◼   ► It was just like, do you want light gray or medium gray?

00:26:23 ◼   ► The new, you know, whatever they're calling this gray is a much darker gray.

00:26:28 ◼   ► It's not black, but it's very, it's much closer to black.

00:26:31 ◼   ► And so it was, for the first time, it was like, oh, finally, like a, a bold, a more bold

00:26:36 ◼   ► choice exists besides these two kind of just lukewarm, do you want this kind of lukewarm

00:26:43 ◼   ► thing or that kind of lukewarm thing?

00:26:45 ◼   ► The MacBook Air is now available in one bold color, which is that the super dark navy blue,

00:26:51 ◼   ► almost black.

00:26:53 ◼   ► And then three just total bland, milquetoast, Tim Cook roommates chat kind of colors, like

00:27:01 ◼   ► just the most boring, bland, like we are afraid to express anything whatsoever with our color

00:27:07 ◼   ► schemes.

00:27:07 ◼   ► Like just, and there's three of them.

00:27:09 ◼   ► Like I understand as, as I think we'll get to many people want to and choose to buy the

00:27:15 ◼   ► boring colors.

00:27:16 ◼   ► That's why the iMac is offered in silver, even though it's also offered in all those

00:27:20 ◼   ► other colors, but they offer it in other colors too, for people who want color in their life.

00:27:27 ◼   ► Why would a company whose logo was a rainbow for so long, why would they want to offer color

00:27:35 ◼   ► in their products?

00:27:35 ◼   ► Because it's nice and people buy them and people love it.

00:27:40 ◼   ► And it makes people happy and it adds some emotional appeal to what is otherwise your work

00:27:45 ◼   ► computer or whatever.

00:27:46 ◼   ► Like it gives people some fun in these tools that are just machines.

00:27:50 ◼   ► Otherwise, Apple has not shied away from colors across their product lines forever.

00:27:56 ◼   ► They're actually really good at colors.

00:27:58 ◼   ► When they choose to do real colors, they do a great job.

00:28:03 ◼   ► And doing colored aluminum, they've been doing it since the iPod mini.

00:28:10 ◼   ► Like it's been a long time.

00:28:12 ◼   ► They've, they know how to make good colored aluminum in all sorts of different colors, saturated

00:28:18 ◼   ► colors, pastels.

00:28:19 ◼   ► I think they can, they do a really good job when they do it.

00:28:22 ◼   ► So they have the resources, they have the ability, they have the talent to pick good colors.

00:28:29 ◼   ► Use it, give us something, some option, because we keep hearing from people who could buy the

00:28:38 ◼   ► more expensive pro version of an iPhone or a Mac and they don't, they get the smaller,

00:28:43 ◼   ► you know, more consumer branded one or whatever because it's available in more colors than gray,

00:28:48 ◼   ► gray and gray.

00:28:49 ◼   ► Use that enthusiasm and you can actually upsell people.

00:28:53 ◼   ► You could even like Apple and they actually have done this in the past.

00:28:57 ◼   ► They could even have like, you know, the cheapest configuration only available in silver, gray,

00:29:03 ◼   ► gray and gray.

00:29:04 ◼   ► And then they can have like the next step up.

00:29:06 ◼   ► That's, I think the iMac used to be this way.

00:29:08 ◼   ► I think it, I'm not sure if the current generation is, but the M1 generation was like this.

00:29:11 ◼   ► Then the step up, like the mid, the mid tier specs, that one's available in three more colors

00:29:16 ◼   ► or whatever.

00:29:17 ◼   ► Like they can do stuff like that.

00:29:18 ◼   ► There's so many ways to do this that would work out better for everybody.

00:29:22 ◼   ► So just come on, color, bring color back to the world.

00:29:25 ◼   ► We, trust me, we need it right now.

00:29:27 ◼   ► Like the world could use some, please, for the love of God, bring color back.

00:29:32 ◼   ► Matt Ripito writes with regard to your question, Marco, about portrait only iPad apps.

00:29:38 ◼   ► Would you actually, would you mind just recapping what the query was from, from you last week?

00:29:43 ◼   ► Yeah, so basically I'd said last week, one of the things I'd gone through with the restaurant

00:29:45 ◼   ► was I had an iPad set up to play music and, and run the app for the mixer to control volume

00:29:50 ◼   ► and stuff.

00:29:51 ◼   ► And the mixers app would only run in portrait on iOS.

00:29:56 ◼   ► It's, it's not an iPhone only app.

00:29:57 ◼   ► It was an iPad native build, but it would only run in portrait.

00:30:00 ◼   ► And the problem was, I'm like, I, I couldn't find any way for iPad OS on any sized iPad, even

00:30:07 ◼   ► on a big one to run two portrait only apps side by side with the iPad physically in landscape.

00:30:13 ◼   ► But I figured by this point, like the screens are so big now, maybe they can do that.

00:30:16 ◼   ► And it turns out I could not find a way.

00:30:18 ◼   ► Well, Matt Ripito and many other people have actually written in to point out that it turns

00:30:24 ◼   ► out you can actually run two portrait only iPad apps in landscape side by side using stage

00:30:32 ◼   ► manager, which is something I didn't even think of.

00:30:35 ◼   ► I figured stage manager would have the same restrictions, but it turns out it doesn't.

00:30:39 ◼   ► So this is both helpful in the sense that great, I can actually do this.

00:30:43 ◼   ► I think I haven't actually tried it, but I can do it.

00:30:46 ◼   ► Apparently a lot of people are going to say this, but I don't think I will do it because

00:30:51 ◼   ► this is an iPad that's that again, this is being used by all the bartenders, all the staff

00:30:56 ◼   ► who are working back there.

00:30:57 ◼   ► They're not all going to be iPad experts.

00:30:59 ◼   ► I think the stage manager environment and the little like, what if it gets swapped or

00:31:06 ◼   ► what if it gets disabled or what if, you know, a different app gets pulled up and then that

00:31:11 ◼   ► scene is messed up?

00:31:12 ◼   ► Like, can I trust people who are not iPad power users to be able to use stage manager and like

00:31:19 ◼   ► put it back?

00:31:20 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:31:21 ◼   ► I don't know if I want to take that risk.

00:31:23 ◼   ► I wonder if you could automate this with shortcuts.

00:31:25 ◼   ► I genuinely don't know.

00:31:27 ◼   ► Let's make it even more complicated.

00:31:29 ◼   ► Well, didn't you already buy the iPad mini though?

00:31:32 ◼   ► Like, isn't this kind of the ship is going to sail there?

00:31:33 ◼   ► Yes.

00:31:34 ◼   ► So you'd have to like return the iPad mini or find another use for it to buy a bigger

00:31:37 ◼   ► one.

00:31:37 ◼   ► But like, yeah, this is, you know, this is the problem with iPad OS.

00:31:40 ◼   ► We've talked about it many times.

00:31:41 ◼   ► You really want to build something complicated out of a set of understandable building blocks.

00:31:47 ◼   ► Like if I asked you on your Mac, can you put two windows side by side?

00:31:50 ◼   ► You'd say, yeah, because you learned long ago how to move windows around on your Mac and

00:31:54 ◼   ► how to resize them.

00:31:54 ◼   ► And using those basic tools of like window controls and resizing and moving and dragging,

00:31:59 ◼   ► despite the fact that Mac apps continue to try to make the title bar disappear or make

00:32:04 ◼   ► it difficult, like try grabbing the top of your Chrome window.

00:32:06 ◼   ► But anyway, because the fundamental building blocks of manipulating windows on the Mac are

00:32:13 ◼   ► simple to understand and learn and are incredibly flexible.

00:32:16 ◼   ► Almost anybody can take two windows and put the side by side.

00:32:19 ◼   ► Maybe they don't know about the cool shortcuts with like where you can tile them and blah,

00:32:22 ◼   ► blah, blah.

00:32:22 ◼   ► But they don't need to know those shortcuts.

00:32:24 ◼   ► They know what windows are.

00:32:25 ◼   ► They can see them.

00:32:26 ◼   ► They can move them.

00:32:27 ◼   ► Chances are good to be able to recover.

00:32:29 ◼   ► But the instructions for doing it in stage manager highlight how that is not the case

00:32:34 ◼   ► on the iPad.

00:32:34 ◼   ► First of all, Marco couldn't discover it, which I mean, granted, he didn't even think of stage

00:32:37 ◼   ► manager, which is itself its own problem of this weird mode.

00:32:40 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:32:40 ◼   ► But second, even if you had said, let me try stage manager, would you have tried this?

00:32:44 ◼   ► Fabian wrote in with an example video.

00:32:46 ◼   ► He says, here's an example with Monument Valley 3, which is an iPad native portrait only app

00:32:51 ◼   ► and Nintendo music and iPhone app running in iPad compatibility mode.

00:32:54 ◼   ► After activating stage manager, launch app A, locate app B via the dock app library or spotlight,

00:33:00 ◼   ► hold down the shift key and tap on app B.

00:33:02 ◼   ► If you don't have a keyboard, hold down the icon of app B and drag it onto the quote stage.

00:33:07 ◼   ► Like, no one's going to figure this out.

00:33:08 ◼   ► It's way too complicated.

00:33:09 ◼   ► And for what?

00:33:10 ◼   ► To what end?

00:33:11 ◼   ► What does this complexity give you the ability to do?

00:33:14 ◼   ► It gives you the ability to do a very finite, limited subset of what you can do by simply

00:33:19 ◼   ► moving windows around.

00:33:21 ◼   ► Like, it's just, it's madness.

00:33:22 ◼   ► So, we don't want to rehash everything about iPad or us being a problem, but it's a problem.

00:33:26 ◼   ► All right.

00:33:27 ◼   ► Going back to colors for a minute, Yossi Kanner writes,

00:33:30 ◼   ► tech pundits love to complain that Apple doesn't make devices with real colors, yet it seems

00:33:34 ◼   ► people actually buy the plain black or silver option.

00:33:37 ◼   ► I had an iPhone 12 mini and a 13 pro in blue colors.

00:33:40 ◼   ► They came in and hated them.

00:33:42 ◼   ► Since then, I've gone back to the more neutral colors and much happier.

00:33:44 ◼   ► Now, granted, there isn't much color in Apple's current lineup, but choosing to get a

00:33:47 ◼   ► colorful iPhone or iPad is a much bigger decision than, say, getting a colorful case.

00:33:51 ◼   ► I think Apple's making the right choice here.

00:33:53 ◼   ► Yossi, I appreciate you, your feedback, but you are wrong.

00:33:56 ◼   ► I want a colorful phone.

00:33:58 ◼   ► Well, no.

00:33:58 ◼   ► So, this is, this is a, it's not a, this is not a either or situation.

00:34:02 ◼   ► No, you're right.

00:34:02 ◼   ► You're right.

00:34:03 ◼   ► In every case, everyone out of Kanner for Color says, of course, they should continue

00:34:07 ◼   ► to make a neutral color or maybe multiple neutral colors because that is probably,

00:34:11 ◼   ► he's right.

00:34:11 ◼   ► That's what most people will buy, right?

00:34:13 ◼   ► But that's like, again, not, not every product will be your best selling product.

00:34:17 ◼   ► Not every color will be your best selling color, right?

00:34:19 ◼   ► You put the color in for excitement, right?

00:34:21 ◼   ► A lot of, you know, cars are the best example.

00:34:23 ◼   ► I mean, you guys were talking about a bunch of things, but like cars are like the second

00:34:26 ◼   ► most expensive things most people will ever buy next to their house if they ever own a

00:34:29 ◼   ► house, right?

00:34:29 ◼   ► And cars are purchased massively based on their appearance, which doesn't make sense.

00:34:35 ◼   ► You're like, oh, with something so as expensive as a computer, do I care how it looks?

00:34:37 ◼   ► Are you kidding?

00:34:38 ◼   ► The two most expensive things people buy, cars and homes, are purchased so much based on their

00:34:44 ◼   ► appearance.

00:34:45 ◼   ► It's ridiculous.

00:34:45 ◼   ► It's almost as if the more expensive things get, the more we buy based on how it looks,

00:34:50 ◼   ► not less, right?

00:34:51 ◼   ► So there's no argument to be made that you shouldn't, you know, make these fancy colors

00:34:55 ◼   ► because people will just pick the neutral ones.

00:34:56 ◼   ► Fine.

00:34:57 ◼   ► It gets them in the showroom, right?

00:34:59 ◼   ► Like they're not even going to buy that car, but they want to come and see it because it's

00:35:02 ◼   ► shiny and red or the car they're going to get is silver, but they want to look at the

00:35:04 ◼   ► cool red one, right?

00:35:05 ◼   ► Or you want to go into the neighborhood with the fancy houses, even though you're not going

00:35:08 ◼   ► to buy one of those, but you want to buy one next to it so you can look at the

00:35:10 ◼   ► fancy house.

00:35:11 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:35:12 ◼   ► Most people are going to buy the neutral colors.

00:35:13 ◼   ► They should always offer the neutral colors.

00:35:15 ◼   ► Look at the iMac.

00:35:16 ◼   ► It comes in a huge range of really nice colors and there's just one neutral color and that

00:35:20 ◼   ► one neutral color is enough because that neutral color is fine.

00:35:23 ◼   ► And if you want an iMac that is neutral and won't clash with your decor, there's one for

00:35:28 ◼   ► you to buy.

00:35:29 ◼   ► Like it's, this is not, this is not a problem that needs to be solved.

00:35:32 ◼   ► It's not like they shouldn't offer colors because most people will not buy them.

00:35:35 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:35:35 ◼   ► That's why they should offer them.

00:35:36 ◼   ► Most people won't buy them, offer them anyway to get people in the door and to get people

00:35:40 ◼   ► excited.

00:35:40 ◼   ► Well, and also like I, I, we hear this argument a lot whenever, whenever we are basically advocating

00:35:46 ◼   ► for something that is not going to be Apple's largest seller of its category or whatever.

00:35:51 ◼   ► And we always hear people trying to excuse Apple's logistics and be like, well, look, they

00:35:56 ◼   ► don't want to keep that many SKUs or like, well, no, not, not, not a lot of people buy

00:36:00 ◼   ► that one.

00:36:01 ◼   ► You know, there, there's a lot of degrees of, of precision or ratios here that matter.

00:36:06 ◼   ► Like, okay, not a lot of people.

00:36:08 ◼   ► What does that mean?

00:36:08 ◼   ► Like, do more people buy a theoretical, you know, orange MacBook air than would buy the

00:36:14 ◼   ► Mac pro probably, but they still have the Mac pro.

00:36:19 ◼   ► I was going to say, well, you were talking about like, Oh, bring us color in your life.

00:36:22 ◼   ► I'm thinking, well, you know, the next product due to be updated is ever ready for a, you know,

00:36:26 ◼   ► a lime green gigantic cheese grater.

00:36:29 ◼   ► I mean, but, but seriously, like if you look at, if you use that logic of like, well,

00:36:34 ◼   ► they shouldn't, they shouldn't make things that most people won't buy or that most people

00:36:39 ◼   ► don't need, you know, quote need.

00:36:41 ◼   ► Well then they should only make the silver MacBook air and no other max.

00:36:45 ◼   ► Like by that logic, why do any of these other models exist?

00:36:49 ◼   ► Most people use the silver MacBook air.

00:36:51 ◼   ► Okay.

00:36:52 ◼   ► Then just make that by these, like that, of course the logic makes no sense.

00:36:56 ◼   ► You, you have more options for lots of reasons and enough people buy them to make them worth

00:37:02 ◼   ► making.

00:37:02 ◼   ► Like it doesn't take that many people to buy something at Apple scale for it to be worth

00:37:07 ◼   ► making in a certain configuration.

00:37:08 ◼   ► And even if it isn't worth making on its own, you still have to make it the same reason they

00:37:12 ◼   ► make all those other computers and stuff, because you need to have a diversified product line

00:37:16 ◼   ► that people feel confident in.

00:37:17 ◼   ► So even if they're going to buy the silver MacBook air, they feel more comfortable buying that

00:37:21 ◼   ► knowing that there's an entire line of Mac laptops that covers all their needs, as opposed

00:37:26 ◼   ► to like, Oh, I was going to buy a laptop, but that company only makes one.

00:37:29 ◼   ► And I'm worried about getting entrenched in the Apple ecosystem considering they only make

00:37:32 ◼   ► one laptop.

00:37:33 ◼   ► And what if my needs ever don't fit within that one laptop doesn't make you confident.

00:37:36 ◼   ► Like you have to diversify your product lines.

00:37:38 ◼   ► We've talked about how diversified should they be, you know, with respect to the iPhone, how

00:37:42 ◼   ► many iPhones is enough iPhones to cover the market and the same thing with Macs or whatever.

00:37:46 ◼   ► But the answer is never just make the one or two that are the most popular.

00:37:50 ◼   ► That's even, even if every single one, except for the one or two most popular loses money,

00:37:54 ◼   ► you should still do it because overall you will make more money by having a full featured product

00:37:58 ◼   ► line that gives people confidence.

00:37:59 ◼   ► Speaking of the MacBook air, the M4 MacBook air has a new mute button icon.

00:38:04 ◼   ► The F10 key, instead of being the outline of a speaker, it's now the outline of a speaker

00:38:10 ◼   ► with a slash through it.

00:38:11 ◼   ► And I may sound like I'm snarking, but actually I do think this is an improvement.

00:38:15 ◼   ► This is definitely an improvement.

00:38:16 ◼   ► I very frequently find myself like having to double take to make a second glance because

00:38:20 ◼   ► I have the same key caps on my keyboard.

00:38:22 ◼   ► I think all the Apple ones do to make a second glance to see like the F11 has got the little

00:38:27 ◼   ► the little sound wave coming out, distinguish it from, you know.

00:38:30 ◼   ► So anyway, hopefully this is a trend that will ripple across all their keyboards.

00:38:33 ◼   ► But yeah, good improvement.

00:38:35 ◼   ► Yep.

00:38:36 ◼   ► It gets my stamp of approval.

00:38:38 ◼   ► All right.

00:38:39 ◼   ► With regard to the quote unquote Hydra chip in ATP 562.

00:38:43 ◼   ► Do you have a dragon?

00:38:44 ◼   ► Apparently we discussed and linked to, I do remember actually this interview, a Johnny

00:38:48 ◼   ► Surugi interview from July, 2023, in which he was asked in so many words, what are the

00:38:53 ◼   ► next challenges and processors that Apple should tackle to get to the real next generation of

00:38:58 ◼   ► processors?

00:38:58 ◼   ► His answer after disclaiming about future products and blah, blah, blah, was basically one of the

00:39:03 ◼   ► things that is going to be important is packaging.

00:39:06 ◼   ► So this relates to the Hydra H-I-D-R-A chip because some people think that it should be pronounced

00:39:12 ◼   ► Hydra.

00:39:13 ◼   ► And then people like to remind you that the mythical beast, the Hydra from mythology is a

00:39:17 ◼   ► multi-headed creature.

00:39:18 ◼   ► I think if you caught off one of the heads to grow back or whatever.

00:39:21 ◼   ► Oh, doesn't this sound like packaging is interesting, multi-headed beast, M4 Extreme chip, it's not

00:39:27 ◼   ► going to be an M4 Ultra for the Mac Pro, could use one of TSMC's various new technologies for

00:39:32 ◼   ► doing what AMD calls chiplets or whatever, various like multiple independently manufactured chips

00:39:39 ◼   ► combining into a larger thing for a super mega chip for the Mac Pro.

00:39:44 ◼   ► That all sounds well and good and I'm certainly rooting for the M4 Extreme type thing to come

00:39:50 ◼   ► in the Mac Pro, but I don't actually know if H-I-D-R-A is an alternate spelling of the mythical

00:39:57 ◼   ► Hydra because that Hydra is with an H-Y every place that I've seen it.

00:40:00 ◼   ► And also there is at least one thing called H-I-D-R-A, which is an island in Norway or something.

00:40:06 ◼   ► So codenames are weird.

00:40:08 ◼   ► This codename could be about the island in Norway.

00:40:13 ◼   ► It could be about the multi-headed beast.

00:40:14 ◼   ► It could be an intentionally misspelled version of the multi-headed beast or it could be something

00:40:17 ◼   ► else entirely.

00:40:18 ◼   ► But I just want to throw that out there because so many people said, you dummy, Hydra, it's

00:40:23 ◼   ► a multi-headed beast, M4 Extreme confirmed.

00:40:25 ◼   ► I hope you're right, but I don't know if the codename has anything to do with that.

00:40:28 ◼   ► Yep.

00:40:29 ◼   ► All right.

00:40:31 ◼   ► Mark Gurman writes with regard to the M4 Ultra and Hydra, Apple's Ultra processors have always

00:40:38 ◼   ► been developed by fusing two Macs chips together to double the performance across the

00:40:42 ◼   ► system that requires a so-called Ultra fusion interconnect system.

00:40:46 ◼   ► The M3 Max has that feature while the M4 Max does not.

00:40:49 ◼   ► Let's pause a second here.

00:40:51 ◼   ► This is the second thing that I've read, one translated for French that is flat out stated

00:40:56 ◼   ► that the M4 Max does not have an interposer on it.

00:40:59 ◼   ► What are they basing this on?

00:41:01 ◼   ► Does Gurman have a D-lidded M4 Max that he's looking at?

00:41:05 ◼   ► Does someone have die shots of the M4 Max that shows it's not there?

00:41:08 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:41:10 ◼   ► It's frustrating me that this has just been, and now it's just like asserted as truth.

00:41:13 ◼   ► And second, the M4 Max has it?

00:41:16 ◼   ► Last time I saw any die shots of the M3 Max, sorry, the M3 Max, any die shots of the M3 Max,

00:41:21 ◼   ► it was in the context of a story of someone saying, hey, look, no interposer on the M3 Max.

00:41:25 ◼   ► And again, I said, did they just crop the picture and it's there or is it not there?

00:41:30 ◼   ► No answer, please.

00:41:31 ◼   ► I wish I could fix this myself.

00:41:32 ◼   ► I can't.

00:41:32 ◼   ► I don't have these chips.

00:41:33 ◼   ► I don't have the equipment.

00:41:34 ◼   ► I can't do it.

00:41:34 ◼   ► Somebody out there, like, and I Google search for it so much, but just try Google searching

00:41:40 ◼   ► for M3 space M-A-X, die shot, like, but just, it's impossible.

00:41:45 ◼   ► Like, I can't, it's all just so much garbage in the search results.

00:41:48 ◼   ► I can't find it anywhere.

00:41:49 ◼   ► So please, I would love for someone to actually determine if any of this is true.

00:41:53 ◼   ► Gurman, you can't just say the M4 Max doesn't have an interposer.

00:41:55 ◼   ► Did Apple confirm that?

00:41:57 ◼   ► Then tell me that Apple confirmed it to you.

00:41:59 ◼   ► And, and again, I will reiterate, even if the M4 Max doesn't have an interposer, maybe

00:42:03 ◼   ► the M3 Max didn't either.

00:42:04 ◼   ► But when they manufactured the ones that are going to do for the Ultra, they put it on there

00:42:08 ◼   ► because it's a different chip because it's got Thunderbolt 5 and all sorts of other stuff.

00:42:11 ◼   ► Anyway, this just annoys me.

00:42:13 ◼   ► So, sorry.

00:42:14 ◼   ► Continue.

00:42:14 ◼   ► Gurman continues, though I previously speculated that Apple might have used the M3 Ultra to differentiate

00:42:20 ◼   ► from a future M4 Ultra Mac Pro.

00:42:23 ◼   ► That now seems less likely given the lack of Ultra Fusion development.

00:42:27 ◼   ► An M3 Ultra refresh for the Mac Pro or a future M5 Ultra, if that generation gets this interconnect

00:42:32 ◼   ► capability, is more plausible.

00:42:34 ◼   ► The main benefits of the Mac Pro are PCIe expandability and extra ports, hardly enough to be a true

00:42:39 ◼   ► differentiator for 99.99% of people.

00:42:42 ◼   ► Apple knows this and its marketing team was dismayed when a higher end extreme chip with double the

00:42:47 ◼   ► performance of the Ultra processors was nixed years ago.

00:42:49 ◼   ► That would have given the premium price more of a justification.

00:42:52 ◼   ► I put this part in here because I like the idea of the marketing team at Apple having so much

00:43:00 ◼   ► influence over the company and sway over the products that it's a disappointment that there

00:43:05 ◼   ► was no good chip in the Mac Pro could actually influence product design.

00:43:08 ◼   ► And that may sound ridiculous if you're from a company where you're like, well, we make the

00:43:11 ◼   ► product and the marketing team sells it.

00:43:13 ◼   ► But my vague impression with the little knowledge I have about inside of Apple is that actually

00:43:18 ◼   ► the marketing team or the product marketing team is surprisingly powerful within the company.

00:43:23 ◼   ► So I really hope this is true.

00:43:25 ◼   ► I really hope the marketing team was dismayed.

00:43:28 ◼   ► I was dismayed.

00:43:29 ◼   ► A lot of people were dismayed.

00:43:30 ◼   ► I hope the marketing team is like, how are we going to sell this?

00:43:32 ◼   ► It's a Mac mini in a giant case.

00:43:34 ◼   ► And, you know, everyone just shrugs.

00:43:36 ◼   ► So, again, fingers crossed M4 Extreme WWDC 2025.

00:43:40 ◼   ► What did you call it last week, Marco?

00:43:42 ◼   ► A breakout box for the studio?

00:43:44 ◼   ► It's not even a breakout box.

00:43:45 ◼   ► It's in the same box.

00:43:46 ◼   ► Yeah, it's a PCI Express enclosure for the Mac Studio.

00:43:50 ◼   ► I mean, it's a PCI Express hotel.

00:43:52 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:43:53 ◼   ► And certainly, you know, if the plan is indeed for the Mac Pro to get some kind of extreme chip

00:43:59 ◼   ► that the studio doesn't get or can't fit or whatever, that would kind of explain.

00:44:05 ◼   ► Because, like, when you look at the Mac Pro now, it does kind of look like a seat filler.

00:44:10 ◼   ► It's like this is a role that Apple wants to, ostensibly wants to keep serving.

00:44:16 ◼   ► And here is a computer that sort of serves it.

00:44:19 ◼   ► That exists and is not Intel.

00:44:21 ◼   ► Right.

00:44:22 ◼   ► Which is an important feature.

00:44:23 ◼   ► It sort of serves this role.

00:44:24 ◼   ► But, like, it does kind of, like, the current Mac Pro does not differentiate itself enough

00:44:30 ◼   ► from Mac Studio except for a very, very, very small market of people who happen to use PCI

00:44:36 ◼   ► slots but not GPUs in those PCI slots.

00:44:39 ◼   ► Like, so, like, that is a market, but it's not a very big market.

00:44:42 ◼   ► And so, if they also are able to, you know, have a bigger extreme chip that could then presumably

00:44:51 ◼   ► also not only have better performance and maybe, you know, better GPU grunt, but also presumably

00:44:56 ◼   ► could address more RAM and have, you know, higher resource ceilings, more Thunderbolt bandwidth

00:45:00 ◼   ► and, you know, all the other things that you get from having more of these chips, that would

00:45:05 ◼   ► help differentiate it.

00:45:06 ◼   ► Because then people like John, who just need a bunch of processor or GPU grunt, who won't

00:45:13 ◼   ► fill the PCI slots, you know, that becomes served.

00:45:16 ◼   ► And now there's only one John, and even he wouldn't buy this because it'll probably be

00:45:19 ◼   ► $25,000.

00:45:20 ◼   ► But there's, like, scientific computing.

00:45:22 ◼   ► There's AI research and training and stuff like that where, like, anything where you're

00:45:27 ◼   ► working with huge amounts of memory, huge data sets, big throughput.

00:45:30 ◼   ► Like, there are industries and uses for what would be a theoretical, like, extreme quad chip

00:45:38 ◼   ► and the resources that would presumably go along with it.

00:45:40 ◼   ► Again, these are not massive markets, but they're profitable, and certainly Apple itself would

00:45:47 ◼   ► probably use them.

00:45:49 ◼   ► So, you know, there's lots of reasons for them to make a computer like that.

00:45:52 ◼   ► And again, it does seem like the current Mac Pro is basically a benchwarmer waiting for

00:45:56 ◼   ► a better one to come out that is more differentiated above the studio.

00:46:00 ◼   ► If that is the case, granted, this is wishful thinking.

00:46:03 ◼   ► You know, this is wishful rumor casting, like, we, or wish casting, I guess people call it.

00:46:08 ◼   ► Like, we want this to be true.

00:46:10 ◼   ► So it kind of makes us believe the rumors more.

00:46:12 ◼   ► But I do hope that the Mac Pro isn't just what we see today.

00:46:17 ◼   ► I hope that they do actually make the extreme version at some point.

00:46:21 ◼   ► And maybe not every CPU generation, you know, we'll see about that.

00:46:24 ◼   ► I will say, though, when it comes to that performance, when we get into the next item

00:46:30 ◼   ► about the M3 Ultra benchmarks, I'm a little concerned.

00:46:35 ◼   ► No, actually, before we go on to that, I just want to say that it's not just wish casting.

00:46:39 ◼   ► It is the thing that often gets us into trouble when it comes to the Mac Pro, because it is

00:46:43 ◼   ► like, yes, people want this and it's, you know, desirability or whatever.

00:46:47 ◼   ► And but the real downfall is like, well, how would what Apple is doing make any sense if

00:46:53 ◼   ► not for X?

00:46:54 ◼   ► And that leads you to things like this kind of hope, because, for example, why in the world

00:47:00 ◼   ► would they not revise the Mac Pro with the M3 Ultra at the same time as the studio?

00:47:06 ◼   ► It only makes sense.

00:47:07 ◼   ► The only reason they wouldn't do that is because, you know, based on what they said, there might

00:47:12 ◼   ► not be an Ultra in every generation.

00:47:13 ◼   ► There's not going to be an M4 Ultra.

00:47:15 ◼   ► They're not revising the Mac Pro at the same time as the studio.

00:47:18 ◼   ► Therefore, it only makes sense that the Mac Pro is not getting the M3 Ultra and it's not

00:47:23 ◼   ► getting the M4 Ultra because Apple has hinted that doesn't exist.

00:47:26 ◼   ► M4 Extreme WWC confirmed, right?

00:47:28 ◼   ► And yet when we do that and try to try to make sense of what Apple has said and what they

00:47:32 ◼   ► have done, very often we find ourselves foiled by like, oh, here we are, WWC 25.

00:47:37 ◼   ► And guess what?

00:47:37 ◼   ► They just announced the new Mac Pro with the M3 Ultra.

00:47:40 ◼   ► And then we all just smack ourselves in the forehead and say, but that doesn't make any

00:47:44 ◼   ► sense.

00:47:44 ◼   ► And Apple will be like, we know, like the things they've been doing with the Mac Pro have not

00:47:51 ◼   ► made a lot of sense recently.

00:47:52 ◼   ► And so we have to be careful not to fall into that trap.

00:47:56 ◼   ► But of, because that's just, that's, you know, I'll be there in my belief cert.

00:48:01 ◼   ► If they put a Mac Pro with M3 Ultra months after the studio got the M3 Ultra, like what in the

00:48:06 ◼   ► world is the point?

00:48:07 ◼   ► What are they even doing?

00:48:08 ◼   ► But anyway, yes, M3 Ultra benchmarks.

00:48:10 ◼   ► Next item.

00:48:10 ◼   ► Right.

00:48:11 ◼   ► So this is from Geekbench 6.

00:48:13 ◼   ► I mean, I'm happy to read off all these numbers and whatnot.

00:48:16 ◼   ► What's the best way to...

00:48:18 ◼   ► I can characterize it for you, right?

00:48:20 ◼   ► So here's the deal.

00:48:21 ◼   ► So I've looked these things up.

00:48:22 ◼   ► Now, some caveats to start.

00:48:23 ◼   ► This is super early.

00:48:25 ◼   ► I don't know if people even have the M3 Ultra studio now.

00:48:28 ◼   ► I think the embargo's lifted, but I think a few people have them.

00:48:30 ◼   ► But anyway, the thing about Geekbench, it's just a benchmark.

00:48:33 ◼   ► Anyone can submit scores to it.

00:48:35 ◼   ► Very early in the life of any model of computer, there are few reported scores.

00:48:40 ◼   ► At the time I gathered these numbers, there was only a handful of purported M3 Ultra scores

00:48:46 ◼   ► being reported.

00:48:47 ◼   ► You know, you get the app and you just, it reports your scores over the network to their

00:48:50 ◼   ► server, right?

00:48:52 ◼   ► When they show the scores for computers they've been out for a while, they're showing an average,

00:48:56 ◼   ► which I would argue is also maybe not the best because people could like super cool and overclock

00:49:00 ◼   ► them and throw off the average and do all sorts of weird stuff.

00:49:02 ◼   ► But anyway, that's why in some cases we have multiple scores here for like, here's the best

00:49:08 ◼   ► or here's the best score I could find for this.

00:49:11 ◼   ► And here is the average score of the few ones they have attached there.

00:49:14 ◼   ► So, and then the final caveat is, of course, how exactly representative is Geekbench of

00:49:19 ◼   ► anything that you care about?

00:49:20 ◼   ► And we'll link it in the show notes to an artist technical article where they try to do a few

00:49:23 ◼   ► more different benchmarks, try to be more representative.

00:49:25 ◼   ► But here's the upshot.

00:49:27 ◼   ► In GPU, which honestly is the main thing I was looking at the M3 Ultra for because the number

00:49:33 ◼   ► of CPU cores isn't that different.

00:49:34 ◼   ► The cores themselves are M2 versus M3.

00:49:37 ◼   ► It's not that big of a deal.

00:49:38 ◼   ► But in GPU, maybe they've done something big here.

00:49:41 ◼   ► And based on the Metal scores, and Metal is the API you care about if you're in the Apple world,

00:49:45 ◼   ► it is 10% faster than the M2 Ultra, than the M2 Ultra's Mac Studio's best score.

00:49:53 ◼   ► And it's 20% faster than the M2 Ultra's average score.

00:49:57 ◼   ► So, you know, the M2 Ultra's Mac Studio's been out for ages, so the average is probably accurate.

00:50:01 ◼   ► But I wanted to give it the best chance here.

00:50:03 ◼   ► Like, the M2 Ultra's best score is within 10% of the M3 Ultra.

00:50:07 ◼   ► The M2 Ultra, the M2 Ultra, Mac Studio, was released in June 2023.

00:50:12 ◼   ► So here we are in 2025, and Apple's releasing a computer that is 10% to 20% faster in GPU.

00:50:19 ◼   ► That's not a big boost in that many years, right?

00:50:24 ◼   ► It's not encouraging, especially since you can get more Metal score, at the very least,

00:50:32 ◼   ► by just putting in more GPU.

00:50:34 ◼   ► Maybe it was a cooling issue.

00:50:36 ◼   ► Maybe it's literally a die size issue, because they really are running up against the reticle limit,

00:50:40 ◼   ► even when doing the two maxes stuck together type of thing.

00:50:44 ◼   ► But it seems like only a month or two ago, when we were talking on the show about all these people

00:50:49 ◼   ► who have these grand fantasies of Apple putting out a GPU that's going to rival a 4090 and stuff.

00:50:55 ◼   ► And instead, they put out a GPU that is a low double-digit percentage faster than the one they put out in 2023.

00:51:02 ◼   ► Still, people will say, and they're right in that regard, well, it's actually extremely expensive to try to get something with this much GPU power with fast access to 512 gigs of RAM, right?

00:51:15 ◼   ► But it's just further narrowing the use case and making, you know, as if I wasn't attracted to the M3 Ultra anyway.

00:51:23 ◼   ► But certainly, if you're buying this thinking, well, I just want to get the best GPU Apple sells, this is it.

00:51:28 ◼   ► But it's not the best by much.

00:51:29 ◼   ► Extremely disappointing.

00:51:30 ◼   ► And then the single-core score, of course, is not great.

00:51:33 ◼   ► 10% faster than the M2 Ultra.

00:51:35 ◼   ► Again, the 2023 computer.

00:51:36 ◼   ► 20% slower than the M4 Max.

00:51:39 ◼   ► That's not a small number.

00:51:41 ◼   ► Single-core is, I mean, we know that.

00:51:43 ◼   ► Like, we know the M4 is amazing in single-core.

00:51:45 ◼   ► We know this uses M3 cores.

00:51:47 ◼   ► It is what it is.

00:51:49 ◼   ► And then the multi-core, 24% faster than the M2 Ultra.

00:51:52 ◼   ► 24% since 2023 in multi-core?

00:51:57 ◼   ► Meh.

00:51:57 ◼   ► 9% faster in multi-core than the M4 Max.

00:52:00 ◼   ► 9% faster than, like, the Max of the current generation, right?

00:52:06 ◼   ► That's supposed to be half the chip.

00:52:08 ◼   ► It's not half the chip because it's two M3 Maxes for the M3 Ultra.

00:52:11 ◼   ► It's not great in multi-core.

00:52:15 ◼   ► Like, if he's like, well, if you want the fastest multi-core, you got to get the M3 Ultra.

00:52:18 ◼   ► Yeah, by 9%.

00:52:19 ◼   ► Now, one, I will say one more time, Geekbench is not reality.

00:52:23 ◼   ► Geekbench is a benchmark.

00:52:24 ◼   ► Benchmarks are not particularly representative.

00:52:27 ◼   ► If you look at the Ars Technic article, you will find some real-world things that it can

00:52:30 ◼   ► do much better than that.

00:52:31 ◼   ► You'll find some real-world things that can do much worse.

00:52:33 ◼   ► So, as always, if you care about how long it takes to do a thing, export a Final Cut

00:52:38 ◼   ► project, you know, do text-to-speech, run an AI model, do those things, measure those

00:52:43 ◼   ► things, and say, how much faster is it and how much am I getting?

00:52:46 ◼   ► But M3 Ultra does not look like a particularly compelling upgrade from the M2 Ultra.

00:52:53 ◼   ► And the M4 Max, Max Studio, looks really attractive unless you really need that extra 10% to 20%

00:53:00 ◼   ► GPU and an extra 9% of multi-core.

00:53:03 ◼   ► And if you don't need that, you get 20% faster single-core.

00:53:06 ◼   ► So, yeah, M4 forever.

00:53:08 ◼   ► Yeah, it seems like the Ultra here, again, what I was saying earlier, like, the Ultra is

00:53:14 ◼   ► really about the other, like, higher RAM limits, more Thunderbolt bandwidth.

00:53:19 ◼   ► Like, if those kinds of things are what's holding your work back, then maybe this is for you.

00:53:24 ◼   ► Otherwise, like, look, you know, if there's a way for me to spend money to get more performance,

00:53:30 ◼   ► I will often be prone to that, I would not in a million years choose the Ultra for my

00:53:35 ◼   ► needs because the Max is actually doing a better job, you know, for it would be better for my

00:53:42 ◼   ► needs by a mile.

00:53:43 ◼   ► And it would cost half as much on the processor.

00:53:46 ◼   ► But, you know, so, but, you know, it's, again, it's not to say there's nobody who this is

00:53:48 ◼   ► for, but this is not probably for people for whom CPU performance is critical.

00:53:56 ◼   ► Like, this is probably mostly for people who need more RAM or maybe who need that extra

00:54:02 ◼   ► GPU.

00:54:03 ◼   ► But, again, like, the GPU does not compare that well because, you know, also what we're

00:54:08 ◼   ► seeing, and this is kind of what worries me about the rumors about the Mac Pro getting

00:54:11 ◼   ► getting an extreme, you know, quote, extreme chip with, you know, double the Ultra or whatever.

00:54:16 ◼   ► These chips don't seem to be scaling that well past the max core counts.

00:54:23 ◼   ► Like, we've seen this from all the generations so far that have gotten the Ultra chip.

00:54:27 ◼   ► Or was there an M1 Ultra?

00:54:29 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah, there was.

00:54:30 ◼   ► And I was going to say that when you were talking about the other thing that, like, even though

00:54:35 ◼   ► you said quad and we keep talking about it in that context, I continue to think and hope,

00:54:39 ◼   ► I thought this was what the M3 Ultra was going to be, but anyway, I continue to think that

00:54:43 ◼   ► they're better off making a chip that is bigger and badder than the Macs and putting two of

00:54:48 ◼   ► those together rather than trying to put four of anything together because they've never

00:54:52 ◼   ► been able to do it.

00:54:53 ◼   ► And you're right.

00:54:53 ◼   ► Like, just if their overhead's killing them on the two-chip ones, and it was killing them

00:54:57 ◼   ► on some of the earlier two-chip ones, don't try to go.

00:55:00 ◼   ► There's a reason they didn't do the four, right?

00:55:01 ◼   ► So I'm just hoping they make two really big chips and stick them together rather than trying

00:55:07 ◼   ► to take four of any of the existing chips and stick them together.

00:55:09 ◼   ► Yeah, because as we're seeing, we saw this with all the Ultra so far, the Ultra being

00:55:14 ◼   ► two Macs stuck together does not give you twice the performance.

00:55:18 ◼   ► On the GPU, it sometimes can come close.

00:55:21 ◼   ► On the CPU, it's way off.

00:55:23 ◼   ► And because, again, there's different bottlenecks, there's different trade-offs, there's different,

00:55:27 ◼   ► you know, things don't scale perfectly because they're complicated and that's not how things

00:55:32 ◼   ► work.

00:55:32 ◼   ► And they screwed up the GPU.

00:55:33 ◼   ► So the GPU gets close.

00:55:34 ◼   ► I forget which generation.

00:55:36 ◼   ► One of the generations, they actually screwed up the GPU part real bad and it was way worse

00:55:39 ◼   ► than it needed to be.

00:55:40 ◼   ► I think that was the M1 where they messed it up and they fixed it in the M2.

00:55:42 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:55:43 ◼   ► There's all these different, you know, bandwidths and caches and things that just make it more

00:55:46 ◼   ► complicated than just doubling everything.

00:55:48 ◼   ► So what you're getting is, you know, you get twice the cost, at least on the manufacturing

00:55:54 ◼   ► side.

00:55:54 ◼   ► You know, certainly the retail price reflects, you know, definitely twice the cost, but you're

00:55:59 ◼   ► not getting twice the performance.

00:56:00 ◼   ► And in many cases, you're getting a lot less than twice the performance.

00:56:04 ◼   ► So it does seem like, again, you will know if you need this and odds are if you don't know

00:56:13 ◼   ► that you need this, you don't need this.

00:56:14 ◼   ► Like if you don't, if you're not hitting the RAM limits on your maxed out max chip computer,

00:56:22 ◼   ► you probably don't need this.

00:56:24 ◼   ► If you're not like absolutely maxing out the GPU total speed all the time, you probably don't

00:56:31 ◼   ► need this.

00:56:31 ◼   ► Like this is, this is for certain people, not for us.

00:56:35 ◼   ► And if you just want a really fast general purpose computer, an M4 max based computer is

00:56:41 ◼   ► most likely going to give you a better and possibly even faster overall performance, whether that's

00:56:48 ◼   ► the MacBook pro or the Mac studio, you can have it in both.

00:56:51 ◼   ► And it seems to be the same chip in both.

00:56:52 ◼   ► And that's great.

00:56:53 ◼   ► So you want a laptop that's the fastest computer for you.

00:56:55 ◼   ► Great.

00:56:56 ◼   ► You want a desktop version.

00:56:57 ◼   ► You have that option too.

00:56:58 ◼   ► You want one with slots too bad, but.

00:57:01 ◼   ► But right now, like the M4 max is the place to be and the M4 ultra or the M3 ultra is

00:57:07 ◼   ► for almost no one.

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00:58:59 ◼   ► So, a few years ago now, on March 10th of 2022, there was an exchange that was had on this

00:59:10 ◼   ► very program, on episode 473, Fan Boats and Coattails.

00:59:15 ◼   ► And I believe Marco is going to play that exchange right now.

00:59:21 ◼   ► Eventually, the iMac screen is going to be larger than 24 inches.

00:59:24 ◼   ► And when it does, the 27-inch iMac will come back.

00:59:26 ◼   ► That's all I'm saying.

00:59:27 ◼   ► I'm not saying like that tomorrow there's going to be a 27-inch iMac despite this hole in the

00:59:31 ◼   ► lineup or whatever.

00:59:31 ◼   ► It's just the 24, like it went up from 21.

00:59:34 ◼   ► The low-end iMac used to be 21.

00:59:35 ◼   ► So, they made 24, which is a nice in-between size.

00:59:37 ◼   ► But eventually, two or three years from now, they're going to be like, 24, really?

00:59:41 ◼   ► Everyone else is so much bigger and they'll work their way back up to 27 and 5K.

00:59:47 ◼   ► You really just infinite timescaled us on this?

00:59:49 ◼   ► It's not infinite.

00:59:50 ◼   ► Totally infinite timescaled us.

00:59:51 ◼   ► I'm going to say within three years, there'll be a 27-inch iMac.

00:59:54 ◼   ► You really just finite timescaled us on this?

00:59:56 ◼   ► All right.

00:59:57 ◼   ► That's the bet.

00:59:57 ◼   ► Three years from now, I'll bet you a dollar.

01:00:00 ◼   ► My $1 bet.

01:00:01 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:00:01 ◼   ► All right.

01:00:04 ◼   ► So, it's been three years.

01:00:05 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:00:05 ◼   ► For all the people who sent this in by Mastodon and other means, don't you all know I had this

01:00:11 ◼   ► on my calendar?

01:00:11 ◼   ► Like, I think I put it on the calendar on that show.

01:00:15 ◼   ► I always put these things on my calendar because I would never remember them otherwise.

01:00:17 ◼   ► Yeah, I should have gone with five years.

01:00:19 ◼   ► I should have stuck to my instincts, but...

01:00:22 ◼   ► Double or nothing?

01:00:22 ◼   ► Double or nothing?

01:00:22 ◼   ► Yeah, I was going to ask.

01:00:23 ◼   ► So, well, so here's the thing.

01:00:26 ◼   ► Here's the other thing that I didn't think about when we were making that.

01:00:28 ◼   ► So, first of all, I still say that they're going to make a larger iMac for the reason

01:00:33 ◼   ► that I was trying to articulate in that clip, which is like, look, even if they never add

01:00:38 ◼   ► a larger iMac to the line, the one and only iMac that exists, assuming the iMac continues

01:00:44 ◼   ► to exist at all as a product, which is not guaranteed, but continue to exist at all, that

01:00:48 ◼   ► one and only iMac will itself get bigger just as it got bigger from 21-inch to 24.

01:00:52 ◼   ► But my three-year timeline was not asking for that.

01:00:54 ◼   ► My three-year timeline is saying they're going to add a bigger iMac.

01:00:57 ◼   ► Here's what I didn't anticipate.

01:00:58 ◼   ► The iMac is close enough to being a monitor that you got to add the gigantic Apple monitor

01:01:05 ◼   ► timescale modifier to all of your calculations, which means Apple producing a new screen?

01:01:11 ◼   ► That only happens once every 15 years or whatever.

01:01:15 ◼   ► So, yeah, I blew it.

01:01:17 ◼   ► It's three years have gone by.

01:01:19 ◼   ► There's no bigger iMac.

01:01:20 ◼   ► Honestly, I would not double or nothing for an additional two years because that's how...

01:01:26 ◼   ► I mean, since then, what has happened with the Mac Studio display?

01:01:30 ◼   ► Not anything.

01:01:32 ◼   ► What has happened with the XDR?

01:01:35 ◼   ► Nothing.

01:01:36 ◼   ► What has happened with the iMac?

01:01:38 ◼   ► Very little.

01:01:39 ◼   ► So, I still think there will be one, but I don't think it will be in two years.

01:01:44 ◼   ► And so, just...

01:01:46 ◼   ► I mean, I hope we don't have to wait until the 24-inch just to become, you know, inconvenient

01:01:52 ◼   ► and inexpensive.

01:01:52 ◼   ► And they kind of like a 25 or a 26-inch just like kind of like bumped up from...

01:01:56 ◼   ► So, I hope we don't have to wait that long.

01:01:58 ◼   ► But related to that, ever since Apple came out with the 24-inch and then said to everybody

01:02:02 ◼   ► who would listen, we're totally not making 27-inch, so buy this 24.

01:02:06 ◼   ► No sense waiting for 27.

01:02:07 ◼   ► We're not going to make it.

01:02:08 ◼   ► We're not doing it.

01:02:09 ◼   ► Buy the 24, right?

01:02:10 ◼   ► Which is true.

01:02:11 ◼   ► They didn't make a 27.

01:02:12 ◼   ► You should have bought the 24, right?

01:02:13 ◼   ► But ever since then, shortly after that, there have been persistent rumors about a larger iMac,

01:02:18 ◼   ► which has been frustrating to me in this bet.

01:02:20 ◼   ► So, German in August 2024 says, a larger iMac remains something Apple is exploring as well,

01:02:27 ◼   ► but it's unclear if that will be an M4 product or something that comes the following year

01:02:30 ◼   ► or later.

01:02:31 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:02:31 ◼   ► February 2025, from German again, Apple will also probably eventually get around to offering

01:02:38 ◼   ► a larger iMac.

01:02:39 ◼   ► I just want to reread that beautiful piece of German pros again.

01:02:42 ◼   ► Apple will also...

01:02:44 ◼   ► No, sorry.

01:02:44 ◼   ► I screwed it up.

01:02:45 ◼   ► I'm adding my own thing to it.

01:02:46 ◼   ► Let me try again.

01:02:46 ◼   ► Apple also will probably eventually get around to offering a larger screen iMac.

01:02:52 ◼   ► At least he hyphenated its larger screen, although that's debatable.

01:02:56 ◼   ► Golly, that's good.

01:02:57 ◼   ► Like, the rumors of larger iMacs have never gone away, and not just like vague, wishful

01:03:03 ◼   ► thinking, but like from people like German who usually have sources, and yet one has not

01:03:07 ◼   ► shipped, so Marco gets $1.

01:03:08 ◼   ► Yep.

01:03:09 ◼   ► Correct.

01:03:10 ◼   ► Which I can apply towards the price of the iMac that I bought a month ago for the restaurant.

01:03:14 ◼   ► What color was that one?

01:03:16 ◼   ► Green.

01:03:16 ◼   ► There you go.

01:03:17 ◼   ► See?

01:03:18 ◼   ► There you go.

01:03:18 ◼   ► I would just like to point out that the Pro Display XDR, which, while from what I gather

01:03:24 ◼   ► from you two, still a very good monitor, release date as per Wikipedia, 10th of December 2019,

01:03:30 ◼   ► which was almost 2,000 days ago.

01:03:34 ◼   ► Woof.

01:03:36 ◼   ► And if you made $1 a day since then, you could buy less than half of one.

01:03:39 ◼   ► You could buy two stands.

01:03:42 ◼   ► John, I think our long national nightmare may be over with regard to threads and your timeline

01:03:49 ◼   ► setting.

01:03:49 ◼   ► Can you tell me more about this?

01:03:50 ◼   ► More digging back from the archives.

01:03:52 ◼   ► As discussed on ATP 616, I Have No Grippers, which was actually a reference to this very

01:03:57 ◼   ► thing, The Verge reported on November 25th, 2024, that, quote, threads will now let users

01:04:03 ◼   ► decide what feed they want to be their default when opening the app.

01:04:05 ◼   ► And I was complaining on that show that they announced this as if it's like a feature.

01:04:09 ◼   ► They're like, here you go.

01:04:10 ◼   ► You asked for it, and you got it.

01:04:12 ◼   ► And I didn't get it.

01:04:14 ◼   ► It's like, oh, we're rolling this out to people.

01:04:15 ◼   ► You'll probably get it eventually.

01:04:16 ◼   ► And I've been patiently waiting and launching the Threads app and looking for my little grippers,

01:04:20 ◼   ► which are the little three lines that let you know that you can drag reorder the order

01:04:24 ◼   ► of the feeds.

01:04:25 ◼   ► And you just put the one you want, the following feed on the top, and it becomes your default

01:04:29 ◼   ► feed so that every single time you launch the Threads app, it doesn't revert you back to

01:04:34 ◼   ► the feed you don't want to see.

01:04:35 ◼   ► You can change the default.

01:04:36 ◼   ► They announced that in November, 2024, as if it's just a thing, but it wasn't a thing.

01:04:40 ◼   ► It was a thing in an article.

01:04:41 ◼   ► It was a thing that some people have, but it was not a thing that I had.

01:04:45 ◼   ► So exactly 100 days later, on March 5th, 2025, I got the feature, the gripper.

01:04:51 ◼   ► I've been checking.

01:04:53 ◼   ► The grippers were there.

01:04:53 ◼   ► I'm like, yay, I can rotate it up.

01:04:55 ◼   ► I don't use Threads as much as the other services, so it's not that big of a deal.

01:05:00 ◼   ► But I was just annoyed that they announced this feature as if it was a thing they did,

01:05:04 ◼   ► and it just totally wasn't.

01:05:05 ◼   ► And that was going to be the story, except for that was on March 5th.

01:05:10 ◼   ► Today is March 12th, and I just looked at my Threads app, and the grippers are gone.

01:05:13 ◼   ► Oh, no.

01:05:14 ◼   ► Other people are texting me and sending me images and saying, hey, look, I got it, too.

01:05:18 ◼   ► It's rolling out for everybody.

01:05:19 ◼   ► It did roll out to me for seven days, and now it's gone.

01:05:23 ◼   ► That's so cruel.

01:05:25 ◼   ► That is cruel.

01:05:26 ◼   ► So stupid.

01:05:26 ◼   ► Like, look, are you going to honor my preferences or not?

01:05:30 ◼   ► Are you going to always put me on the thing I don't want to see because you think that's

01:05:33 ◼   ► better for engagement or whatever the hell?

01:05:34 ◼   ► Or are you just going to let me put it the way I want?

01:05:37 ◼   ► And they just can't decide, how much study does this feature need?

01:05:40 ◼   ► Either let me pick what my default feed is or don't.

01:05:43 ◼   ► But don't pretend like you're letting people pick and then just, like, randomly, haphazardly

01:05:46 ◼   ► roll it out.

01:05:47 ◼   ► Like, are they just making sure it's not going to destroy their business to allow people to

01:05:51 ◼   ► have a preference setting?

01:05:52 ◼   ► So annoying.

01:05:53 ◼   ► Finally, for follow-up this week, we got some feedback with regard to mostly me popping off

01:05:59 ◼   ► about feedback in the Apple world.

01:06:02 ◼   ► This is, you know, formerly known as Radar.

01:06:05 ◼   ► We got a fairly long piece of feedback from an anonymous person, but I'd like to read

01:06:09 ◼   ► it because I think there's a lot of good stuff here.

01:06:11 ◼   ► This person writes, I was an Apple engineer for almost two decades and a third-party Apple

01:06:16 ◼   ► developer for more than a decade.

01:06:17 ◼   ► I heard Casey's rant against Apple's feedback assistant, and I can sympathize.

01:06:20 ◼   ► As a third-party developer, I also got the impression that my bug reports were ignored.

01:06:24 ◼   ► Let me tell you what it's like to be an Apple engineer.

01:06:27 ◼   ► So, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

01:06:28 ◼   ► Then come third-party bugs.

01:06:30 ◼   ► During beta season, I may be assigned hundreds of bugs each week.

01:06:33 ◼   ► Obviously, I can't possibly fix that many, so I triage.

01:06:36 ◼   ► Well-written bug reports with clear instructions to reproduce the problem are first.

01:06:40 ◼   ► If you've attached a small Xcode project that demonstrates the bug, even better.

01:06:43 ◼   ► Unfortunately, there are lots of bugs without a clear problem description or instructions on

01:06:47 ◼   ► how to reproduce it.

01:06:48 ◼   ► Even worse are bugs so poorly written I can't even understand what's wrong.

01:06:51 ◼   ► Unfortunately, these bugs will probably be ignored.

01:06:53 ◼   ► All right.

01:06:54 ◼   ► So, so far, I think this makes sense.

01:06:56 ◼   ► I mean, it's not what I want to hear, but there's only so much time in a day and in a week,

01:07:00 ◼   ► and you do the things that you think are the easiest to accomplish.

01:07:03 ◼   ► Fair enough.

01:07:04 ◼   ► All right.

01:07:05 ◼   ► So, back to the anonymous person.

01:07:06 ◼   ► If I have a question for the developer, I'm prohibited from just contacting them.

01:07:11 ◼   ► I have to send the question to Apple Developer Support.

01:07:13 ◼   ► They contact the developer and eventually send me the reply.

01:07:16 ◼   ► But I have occasionally contacted developers directly for people I know.

01:07:22 ◼   ► Multiple reports of the same bug are grouped together.

01:07:24 ◼   ► The clearest is tagged as the original bug.

01:07:26 ◼   ► The rest are listed as duplicates.

01:07:28 ◼   ► Okay.

01:07:29 ◼   ► This is fine.

01:07:29 ◼   ► Duplicates are like votes.

01:07:31 ◼   ► Oh, God.

01:07:31 ◼   ► Duplicates are like votes that this is an important bug.

01:07:34 ◼   ► A bug with hundreds of duplicates is important since lots of people are hitting it.

01:07:37 ◼   ► I'm supposed to fix high-priority bugs first.

01:07:40 ◼   ► Crashes and data loss are the highest priority, then features that don't work,

01:07:43 ◼   ► eventually working your way down to annoying malfunctions and UI glitches.

01:07:45 ◼   ► The problem is many annoying but non-serious bugs don't get fixed this way.

01:07:50 ◼   ► So experienced engineers also work on the most annoying non-serious bugs.

01:07:53 ◼   ► We also use Apple products and we want them to work well.

01:07:56 ◼   ► Bugs reported during the official beta period have the highest chance of being fixed,

01:08:00 ◼   ► since I'm supposed to be fixing third-party bug reports.

01:08:02 ◼   ► The rest of the year, I'm assigned to work on new features in next year's release,

01:08:06 ◼   ► not old bugs in last year's release.

01:08:07 ◼   ► I mean, this stands to reason given Apple's behavior, but oof.

01:08:11 ◼   ► One thing that drives me crazy is Apple ignoring old bugs.

01:08:15 ◼   ► New features get lots of attention and their bugs are fixed.

01:08:17 ◼   ► New bugs that appear in old features, regressions, are also fixed.

01:08:20 ◼   ► But bugs that have existed for years are ignored.

01:08:22 ◼   ► If a bug somehow slips through QA and ships, the system ignores it.

01:08:26 ◼   ► There's no incentive for engineers or teams to go back and fix old bugs.

01:08:31 ◼   ► None of this is surprising.

01:08:33 ◼   ► And some of it I genuinely do get, especially working at the vast volume that Apple works at.

01:08:40 ◼   ► But, oof, having basically zero incentive to go back and fix things that are broken,

01:08:45 ◼   ► that's not a great look.

01:08:48 ◼   ► It stands to reason given behavior, but it's not a great look.

01:08:51 ◼   ► When people do stuff like this, it's like they're explaining, like, you don't understand.

01:08:55 ◼   ► This is the situation.

01:08:56 ◼   ► It's like, all you're doing is explaining from a different side the exact same problem.

01:09:00 ◼   ► We're both saying it's bad, but you're trying to say, like, on the outside, we think it's terrible.

01:09:05 ◼   ► On the inside, it's like, well, here's all the reasons.

01:09:07 ◼   ► Like, yeah, those are the reasons it's terrible.

01:09:09 ◼   ► Those are not justifications for it being terrible.

01:09:13 ◼   ► And nor are they unmovable, intractable things that can never change, and therefore it must be terrible.

01:09:18 ◼   ► And the reason we know that it doesn't have to be terrible is because other companies do similar things at, yes, similar volumes,

01:09:26 ◼   ► and they do it better.

01:09:27 ◼   ► There are companies that get more customer support feedback than Apple does, you know,

01:09:31 ◼   ► in industries where that is more common, right?

01:09:34 ◼   ► There are companies that also have technical platforms.

01:09:37 ◼   ► Just it is possible to do this better,

01:09:40 ◼   ► as evidenced by this big explanation of all of the dysfunction that's going on inside the company.

01:09:45 ◼   ► If you fix some of that dysfunction, then it won't be as terrible.

01:09:48 ◼   ► That's what we're saying.

01:09:50 ◼   ► So I think, and I'm not saying that this anonymous feedback is trying to justify it or whatever,

01:09:55 ◼   ► just like, because sometimes two people do get indignant and say, you don't understand.

01:09:58 ◼   ► It has to be that way because reasons X, Y, and Z.

01:10:01 ◼   ► I don't think that's what the person is saying.

01:10:02 ◼   ► I think they actually are just giving a different perspective of like,

01:10:04 ◼   ► here's how terrible it looks on the inside of the company as well.

01:10:08 ◼   ► But yeah, like this, the only thing that needs to change about making this better is someone

01:10:13 ◼   ► inside Apple in a position of power needs to decide that is something they want to improve

01:10:18 ◼   ► and actually put resources towards it.

01:10:20 ◼   ► And thus far, that has not happened to a large enough degree to really make a big impact.

01:10:24 ◼   ► All right.

01:10:25 ◼   ► I think we only have time for one topic today because this is likely to be a doozy.

01:10:29 ◼   ► And this is a report from Bloomberg from the 10th, as we're sitting here now.

01:10:33 ◼   ► It is the 12th.

01:10:34 ◼   ► This is a report from Bloomberg.

01:10:36 ◼   ► Like I said, I believe this was German.

01:10:37 ◼   ► And they write,

01:10:39 ◼   ► Apple Inc is preparing one of the most dramatic software overhauls in the company's history,

01:10:43 ◼   ► aiming to transform the interface of the iPhone, iPad, and Mac for a new generation of users.

01:10:47 ◼   ► The revamp will fundamentally change the look of the operating systems and make Apple's various

01:10:53 ◼   ► software platforms more consistent.

01:10:55 ◼   ► That includes updating the style of icons, menus, apps, windows, and system buttons.

01:10:59 ◼   ► As part of the push, the company is working to simplify the way users navigate and control

01:11:03 ◼   ► their devices.

01:11:04 ◼   ► The design is loosely based on the Vision Pro software.

01:11:07 ◼   ► The changes are coming as part of iOS 19 and iPadOS 19, codenamed Luck, and macOS 16,

01:11:13 ◼   ► which is dubbed Cheer.

01:11:16 ◼   ► They go well beyond a new design language and aesthetic tweaks.

01:11:20 ◼   ► The software will mark the most significant upgrade to the Mac.

01:11:23 ◼   ► Upgrade is doing a lot of work there.

01:11:24 ◼   ► To the Mac since the Big Sur operating system in 2020.

01:11:27 ◼   ► For the iPhone, it will be the biggest revamp since iOS 7 in 2013.

01:11:31 ◼   ► A key goal of the overhaul is to make Apple's different operating systems look similar and

01:11:35 ◼   ► more consistent.

01:11:36 ◼   ► Still, Apple is stopping short of merging its operating systems, a step other tech giants

01:11:40 ◼   ► have taken.

01:11:40 ◼   ► The company believes it can make better Macs and iPads by keeping their operating systems

01:11:44 ◼   ► separate.

01:11:45 ◼   ► So there's a little bit of editorializing in there.

01:11:48 ◼   ► And I know on a recent episode, we talked about the potential for an iOS 19 overhaul to

01:11:54 ◼   ► look like Vision OS.

01:11:55 ◼   ► But at the time we were discussing that, it was purely in the context of, does iOS need an

01:12:00 ◼   ► overhaul?

01:12:00 ◼   ► Is it going to look like Vision Pro?

01:12:01 ◼   ► Is it going to look like the imitation app or whatever?

01:12:04 ◼   ► This new story this week is something so much more than that.

01:12:09 ◼   ► Because making a change to the visual look of iOS 19 would be significant, especially if

01:12:14 ◼   ► it's like, you know, looking like the Vision Pro or Glass or Crew or whatever.

01:12:17 ◼   ► But this, this, and this story is not just government.

01:12:19 ◼   ► Other people have had this story as well.

01:12:21 ◼   ► I don't know if they're just parroting him or have their own sources, but this is like

01:12:25 ◼   ► a overhaul of the look and feel of all of Apple's major platforms.

01:12:32 ◼   ► The iOS, the Mac and the iPad to, and again, I don't know how much of this is government editorializing

01:12:40 ◼   ► with the goal of making them more consistent with each other or having more of a family

01:12:45 ◼   ► resemblance.

01:12:47 ◼   ► Let's do a little, you know, germinology here and say, what do we think about this

01:12:53 ◼   ► sentence?

01:12:53 ◼   ► Uh, the, uh, what is it?

01:12:56 ◼   ► The update includes updating the style of icons, menus, apps, windows, and system buttons.

01:13:03 ◼   ► And with the fundamental change, the look of operating systems to make the software platforms

01:13:06 ◼   ► more consistent, right?

01:13:07 ◼   ► Icons, menus, apps, windows.

01:13:09 ◼   ► How, how in the world could you make the look of icons, menus, apps, and windows consistent

01:13:19 ◼   ► across the phone, the iPad, and the Mac?

01:13:23 ◼   ► Let's talk about icons.

01:13:25 ◼   ► Icons on the Mac and on the iPad and on the phone are already.

01:13:33 ◼   ► I mean, am I wrong?

01:13:34 ◼   ► They're already consistent.

01:13:35 ◼   ► They're squircles.

01:13:36 ◼   ► We talked about, we talked about the squircle.

01:13:38 ◼   ► They're, they're squares with rounded corners.

01:13:40 ◼   ► Oh, no, no, no.

01:13:41 ◼   ► Not on vision pro.

01:13:42 ◼   ► Vision OS, they're all circles.

01:13:43 ◼   ► Right.

01:13:43 ◼   ► I didn't say vision pro.

01:13:44 ◼   ► I just listed the ones German listed iOS, iPad OS, and Mac OS, right?

01:13:48 ◼   ► Well, and, and icons also includes like the design of the symbols within the icons, which

01:13:54 ◼   ► they've already made consistent.

01:13:55 ◼   ► SF symbols.

01:13:56 ◼   ► Right.

01:13:56 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:13:57 ◼   ► They do a really good, there's a huge library of consistently styled icons that they expand

01:14:01 ◼   ► all the time.

01:14:02 ◼   ► When Apple designs their own icons that are not NSF symbols, they also match that style.

01:14:07 ◼   ► So already icons are pretty consistent.

01:14:11 ◼   ► And, you know, what you're talking about is the app launch icons, but like even those,

01:14:15 ◼   ► you're right, are already mostly the same across most platforms.

01:14:19 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:14:19 ◼   ► I mean, are they saying that like the, the, the, the male icon on the Mac has to be literally

01:14:24 ◼   ► pixel or pickles, the same as the male icon on the phone and the iPad?

01:14:27 ◼   ► I, I mean, maybe it already is pretty close, but like, so there's that windows, the phone

01:14:32 ◼   ► doesn't even really have windows.

01:14:34 ◼   ► It's got sheets and cards and whatever, but it really doesn't have windows.

01:14:37 ◼   ► The iPad kind of sort of has windows, but not really.

01:14:42 ◼   ► So, and you know, I'm not quite sure what they're aiming at there.

01:14:45 ◼   ► Menus again, the Mac has a menu bar.

01:14:48 ◼   ► The other jobbering systems do not, but they both have kind of pop-up menu things.

01:14:52 ◼   ► And those things do look a little bit different.

01:14:53 ◼   ► I can't, I can't tell.

01:14:56 ◼   ► This story is so insistent that the goal of this is to sort of unify and make them more

01:15:01 ◼   ► consistent with each other.

01:15:02 ◼   ► I can't tell if that is a real thing or not, right?

01:15:06 ◼   ► It's not like sources.

01:15:08 ◼   ► I think, I think I cut out most of the people said or whatever.

01:15:10 ◼   ► I can see them in any kind of redesign, any kind of like cross OS redesign.

01:15:16 ◼   ► I can see someone looking at it and saying, oh, it looks like one of the goals of this redesign

01:15:21 ◼   ► was to make the platforms look more similar to each other.

01:15:24 ◼   ► But I feel like if you do any redesign, of course, there's going to be a, like the redesign

01:15:31 ◼   ► will span multiple operating systems.

01:15:33 ◼   ► It will, the same ideas will be appear in all of them.

01:15:36 ◼   ► I don't think that means they're trying to make them look more like each other.

01:15:39 ◼   ► I just think it means when, if you do all three at once, of course, there's going to be a family

01:15:43 ◼   ► resemblance.

01:15:43 ◼   ► Like, so anyway, I'm, I can't tell what, how big the consistency angle is.

01:15:48 ◼   ► And that is one of the things that I'm going to be looking at.

01:15:50 ◼   ► If this story turns out to be true, was the consistency angle, just someone looking at

01:15:54 ◼   ► it and saying, oh, they all look similar because they were all redesigned at the same time.

01:15:59 ◼   ► Or is Apple going to get up on stage and say, we really felt it was very confusing that pop-up

01:16:04 ◼   ► menus on your phone look different than pull-down menus on the Mac menu bar and users were really

01:16:09 ◼   ► tripping up on that.

01:16:10 ◼   ► And it was really impairing the usability and functionality of our software.

01:16:13 ◼   ► So now a pop-up menu on your phone looks exactly the same as a pull-down menu on your Mac.

01:16:19 ◼   ► And we feel like that, that makes our platforms better.

01:16:21 ◼   ► Or we just want there to be a family resemblance.

01:16:24 ◼   ► So the icons already looked almost exactly the same, but now they literally are exactly

01:16:28 ◼   ► the same.

01:16:28 ◼   ► And you can tint icons on your phone and you can tint icons on your Mac.

01:16:31 ◼   ► I don't know what to make of that.

01:16:34 ◼   ► And then as for the circular icons, which Casey just brought up, let's just, let's just throw

01:16:38 ◼   ► that out there as like a part of the doomsday scenario that we'll, we'll surely spiral into

01:16:41 ◼   ► briefly icons on vision power circles, not squircles, literal circles.

01:16:47 ◼   ► How, you know, how can you decide with an iOS 19 release that now iOS icons on your phone

01:16:57 ◼   ► are also circles.

01:16:57 ◼   ► Apple can do that because they have noticed and they can redraw all their icons.

01:17:01 ◼   ► So they fit in a circle, but you can't just take a third party icons and, and put them in

01:17:06 ◼   ► a circle shape, you'll cut off half of people's icons because they don't expect that to happen.

01:17:10 ◼   ► So I don't see any way where you can have a transition to circular icons on the phone

01:17:18 ◼   ► without just massive upheaval and some kind of transition period where some of them are squircles

01:17:24 ◼   ► and some of them are circles.

01:17:26 ◼   ► Again, to what end people were real confused that the icons on vision power circles, but

01:17:31 ◼   ► they're squircles on their phone.

01:17:32 ◼   ► They had no idea what to do.

01:17:33 ◼   ► No, everyone's fine.

01:17:34 ◼   ► They know what I got.

01:17:36 ◼   ► There's nothing.

01:17:37 ◼   ► This reminds me of that, uh, Bruce Tognizini, uh, thing that I put it in my Mac was tender

01:17:41 ◼   ► use a few times from the original, like Apple human interface guidelines.

01:17:44 ◼   ► There was a, a section of that book, uh, that emphasized an important idea and interface

01:17:50 ◼   ► design using the example of extension icons for classic Mac OS extensions were things that

01:17:55 ◼   ► could like modify the system because they had no memory protections.

01:17:58 ◼   ► You could just do whatever the hell you wanted.

01:17:59 ◼   ► Anyway, um, those were extensions.

01:18:01 ◼   ► And, uh, in, and the later versions of classic Mac OS, you would see the icons of the extensions

01:18:06 ◼   ► that loaded during the, the, the startup process.

01:18:08 ◼   ► You'd see them march across to the bottom of your screen from left to right.

01:18:11 ◼   ► And the extension icon that Apple defined when they rolled out system seven with extensions

01:18:16 ◼   ► and stuff was a puzzle piece.

01:18:18 ◼   ► So it was, you know, just picture like a rectangle, but it's like a puzzle piece, kind of a squashed

01:18:21 ◼   ► puzzle piece because you don't have that much room for the little, I don't know

01:18:24 ◼   ► what you call them, the little things that stick out.

01:18:25 ◼   ► The little notches, but it was a puzzle piece.

01:18:27 ◼   ► But the thing is there was like four different puzzle piece icons that were possible with

01:18:32 ◼   ► different arrangements of the little bulges and holes.

01:18:35 ◼   ► No one was ever confused by that because a puzzle piece is a puzzle piece is a puzzle piece.

01:18:41 ◼   ► If I throw four puzzle pieces in front of you, you're like, well, one of those is a puzzle

01:18:43 ◼   ► piece, but I have no idea what the other ones are.

01:18:45 ◼   ► Like it's, they showed, the other thing that they showed was the home icon for hypercard.

01:18:51 ◼   ► You go to the home button to go back to the home of your hypercard stack for old people.

01:18:54 ◼   ► There was seven different versions of that.

01:18:56 ◼   ► They all look like little houses, little, little square houses with a little triangular

01:18:59 ◼   ► roof.

01:19:00 ◼   ► Again, anyone said, oh, click on the home icon, click on the little picture of the house.

01:19:05 ◼   ► No one said, well, I see one picture of a house, but that other one looks different.

01:19:07 ◼   ► Is that also a house?

01:19:10 ◼   ► You can trust people to recognize a bunch of different puzzle pieces, a bunch of different

01:19:15 ◼   ► house icons.

01:19:16 ◼   ► And yes, you can trust people to recognize this is an icon on your phone, and this is an icon

01:19:22 ◼   ► in Vision Pro, and this is an icon on your iPad, and this is an icon on your Mac.

01:19:25 ◼   ► Even if they're not all squircles, it'll be fine.

01:19:28 ◼   ► So I really hope that part of it is just family resemblance and not, you know, everybody.

01:19:35 ◼   ► I mean, we're already at everybody squircle.

01:19:37 ◼   ► Maybe they should make Vision Pro squircle.

01:19:38 ◼   ► Again, this rumor doesn't mention Vision Pro at all.

01:19:40 ◼   ► So I don't know what the hell, or at least not the part that I snipped out of it.

01:19:43 ◼   ► But setting that aside, how do you feel about this OS-spanning rumor as compared to how you

01:19:52 ◼   ► felt about the iOS 19 rumor?

01:19:53 ◼   ► I mean, this is a much larger, like, so what we heard of with iOS 19 earlier, and we did

01:19:59 ◼   ► that after show, or the overtime about it, it sounded like, you know, there was that mock-up

01:20:05 ◼   ► of the camera app that somebody, was it Jon Prosser who did the mock-up?

01:20:08 ◼   ► Somebody.

01:20:09 ◼   ► That's right.

01:20:10 ◼   ► And it sounded like, okay, well, maybe this is something that they're doing, like, for

01:20:15 ◼   ► certain apps.

01:20:15 ◼   ► Like, you know, the point I made was that Apple has always had multiple design languages depending

01:20:20 ◼   ► on the app type, and there were different styles your app could be, whether it was, like, a

01:20:25 ◼   ► content viewing app, or, like, a single view app, versus a document app, versus a productivity

01:20:30 ◼   ► app, and they've always kind of had, they've been juggling multiple styles.

01:20:33 ◼   ► And so my thought at that time was, maybe this is just a new style they're going to, you

01:20:38 ◼   ► know, add and make easy in the APIs and everything, and maybe adopt for some of their apps.

01:20:42 ◼   ► This is a pretty bold claim that it's much bigger than that, that this is more about, like, the

01:20:49 ◼   ► default look of the UI widgets, and the styles and everything.

01:20:53 ◼   ► And that's a bigger thing.

01:20:55 ◼   ► Now, it sounds like echoes of iOS 7, but I think we're in a very different world now than

01:21:03 ◼   ► we were back then.

01:21:04 ◼   ► First of all, this is a much larger and more established and more entrenched world of apps

01:21:13 ◼   ► now, and all the stuff that runs in Apple's ecosystems is much bigger now, much more entrenched,

01:21:18 ◼   ► and it's much bigger companies now having a lot of influence and a lot of usage in their

01:21:23 ◼   ► apps.

01:21:23 ◼   ► So, for Apple to do something like iOS 7 today, I don't even think they're in a position to

01:21:32 ◼   ► really do it very strongly, for lots of reasons.

01:21:35 ◼   ► Like, number one, I don't think they have the support from developers to, on a large scale,

01:21:44 ◼   ► adopt a new design language, because, like, the small developers like us, they have, you

01:21:49 ◼   ► know, done a pretty good job of straining that relationship, first of all.

01:21:54 ◼   ► Like, that's, number one is, like, we, you know, we are largely, we've been strained, let's

01:22:00 ◼   ► say, and that's, you know, they keep doing that, and that's going to keep being a thing

01:22:03 ◼   ► with their, you know, policy decisions and behavior and everything like that.

01:22:08 ◼   ► So, there's already, like, that relationship with small developers is strained.

01:22:12 ◼   ► That relationship with big company developers is not only differently and maybe more strained,

01:22:18 ◼   ► but big company developers have largely not stuck with Apple's stock look for anything.

01:22:25 ◼   ► Big companies develop their own styles and their own looks for their apps, and they use

01:22:30 ◼   ► them across platforms.

01:22:32 ◼   ► They want their style of their app to look the same on Android and on iOS and maybe on PCs

01:22:39 ◼   ► or the web or whatever the other platforms might be, but especially Android and iOS.

01:22:42 ◼   ► So, they are already saying, like, you know what?

01:22:45 ◼   ► That's nice, Apple.

01:22:47 ◼   ► You have your default, you know, widget looks and whatever else.

01:22:50 ◼   ► We're not going to use them, or we're going to override them to look like us.

01:22:52 ◼   ► So, the big companies, when you think about, like, what, how would this actually play out?

01:22:58 ◼   ► The big companies are going to be hostile or neglectful.

01:23:03 ◼   ► Like, they're going to actively fight against it, or they're going to, they're going to just, like,

01:23:08 ◼   ► never update to the new styles or whatever.

01:23:10 ◼   ► So, all the apps that you use on your phone for big companies, like, they're out.

01:23:15 ◼   ► They're not going to do any of this stuff.

01:23:16 ◼   ► They're going to do their, they're going to keep doing their own stuff.

01:23:18 ◼   ► Small developers like us, this kind of thing is usually a pretty huge workload on us.

01:23:27 ◼   ► It's a huge request and a huge burden to put on third-party developers when the system theme significantly changes.

01:23:36 ◼   ► Because huge amounts of, huge, like, you know, UI chunks of our app will not work right, will not look right.

01:23:44 ◼   ► They'll have visual glitches, or it won't work in the new format.

01:23:48 ◼   ► And so, for us to adopt it, it's a huge amount of work.

01:23:52 ◼   ► Oftentimes needing a pretty significant redesign of the app to adopt it.

01:23:57 ◼   ► And on that front, by the way, I've seen a lot of people reacting to this story by saying,

01:24:01 ◼   ► well, SwiftUI to the rescue, because SwiftUI is declarative,

01:24:05 ◼   ► and you can be less precise about exactly how things look.

01:24:08 ◼   ► Therefore, it'll be much easier for people who have fully adopted a SwiftUI to accommodate the new look.

01:24:13 ◼   ► There is a tiny, very, very small amount of truth to that.

01:24:18 ◼   ► But mostly, what I think Marco's getting at from someone who has experience with doing this is,

01:24:25 ◼   ► it's not like your app won't work when they change the default look of everything, no matter what API you use.

01:24:31 ◼   ► Like, unless you're really unlocking, you're doing custom controls and stuff like that.

01:24:34 ◼   ► But if you're along the straight and narrow, it's like, your app will work.

01:24:36 ◼   ► But when they change the default look, you have to go through every single screen,

01:24:41 ◼   ► every single button, every single widget, because anybody who actually pays attention to their app,

01:24:45 ◼   ► like in any developer who doesn't budget their time the same way a big company would,

01:24:50 ◼   ► has tweaked everything within an inch of its life.

01:24:52 ◼   ► Even if it's just micro-adjusting padding, or using a particular thing because of the way it happens to look

01:24:59 ◼   ► in the default widget set, and it looks nicer that way,

01:25:01 ◼   ► when they change all the default widgets,

01:25:03 ◼   ► you've got to go through every single thing that appears in your app,

01:25:07 ◼   ► and make sure it still looks okay and good.

01:25:11 ◼   ► Because it will, like, the choices you made to use this style of picker versus that style of toggle,

01:25:16 ◼   ► and you're using overlay here, and ZStack there, and background here,

01:25:21 ◼   ► and why did you make those choices?

01:25:22 ◼   ► Because they make the best appearance and behavior with the widget set that you developed it with.

01:25:27 ◼   ► And if they change all the default widgets,

01:25:29 ◼   ► you are going to have to go back and revisit all that stuff,

01:25:32 ◼   ► even if you use SwiftUI from top to bottom.

01:25:34 ◼   ► So that's the burden we're talking about here.

01:25:36 ◼   ► Not that, like, all of a sudden my app crashes, or it doesn't load,

01:25:38 ◼   ► or you can't hit a button anymore, it just starts to look like

01:25:41 ◼   ► this was clearly developed with a different widget set, because it was.

01:25:45 ◼   ► What this does to the developer community is it just drops a huge bomb.

01:25:51 ◼   ► This will be all we can do this year with our apps.

01:25:54 ◼   ► Because, like, what happens is when Apple does a new theme,

01:25:58 ◼   ► usually what happens is if you don't build with a new SDK,

01:26:02 ◼   ► so your app that's not updated yet in the store will continue running on the old theme.

01:26:07 ◼   ► So people will launch your app, and if you haven't built it with a new SDK,

01:26:11 ◼   ► which you can't do usually until, you know, the week before release for public,

01:26:14 ◼   ► and maybe for TestFlight you can do it a little bit earlier,

01:26:16 ◼   ► but anything built with the old SDK will still look old.

01:26:20 ◼   ► Did that happen with iOS 7, by the way? I don't remember.

01:26:22 ◼   ► I think so, yeah.

01:26:24 ◼   ► What will then happen is all of your users, when they update their phones,

01:26:31 ◼   ► which might be day one with the beta, or at least it'll be, like, you know,

01:26:36 ◼   ► certainly in the fall when the OS releases,

01:26:37 ◼   ► your app will look very, very old to them.

01:26:41 ◼   ► And they will complain.

01:26:43 ◼   ► They will, first of all, they'll accuse you of being abandoned.

01:26:46 ◼   ► And they, you'll start getting one-star reviews.

01:26:48 ◼   ► And as I learned last summer, one-star reviews in small numbers,

01:26:53 ◼   ► okay, that's life.

01:26:55 ◼   ► In big numbers, that can destroy your business.

01:26:57 ◼   ► Like, that can be a pretty substantial, like, your business is on fire problem.

01:27:01 ◼   ► So, what developers have to do when the system theme changes like this?

01:27:05 ◼   ► See also when Dark Mode was added.

01:27:07 ◼   ► That was a smaller version, but of a similar thing.

01:27:09 ◼   ► We have to address that with our app.

01:27:12 ◼   ► We have to adopt it, because the reviews will kill us if we don't.

01:27:16 ◼   ► And they'll kill us starting on day one at large scale.

01:27:21 ◼   ► And even before that, we'll start getting killed in the summer during the betas.

01:27:24 ◼   ► But we will get killed if we aren't there with the new redesign.

01:27:28 ◼   ► So, it's imperative.

01:27:30 ◼   ► This is not, like, some optional thing we can adopt at our leisure or if we like it or not.

01:27:34 ◼   ► We have to do it.

01:27:36 ◼   ► And what that means, that's such a huge thing.

01:27:38 ◼   ► As John was just saying, it's so big, because it touches, like,

01:27:40 ◼   ► potentially every screen, every control.

01:27:43 ◼   ► That means that we really can't do any other features this fall.

01:27:47 ◼   ► Like, that's why it's such a huge burden.

01:27:51 ◼   ► It's an incredibly expensive lever for Apple to pull.

01:27:54 ◼   ► Keep in mind, also, it is similarly expensive for Apple,

01:27:58 ◼   ► for all of their apps, all of their software, all of their UI.

01:28:02 ◼   ► So, if this is true, this is a huge deal for the software community,

01:28:09 ◼   ► both inside Apple and for all of us outside of Apple.

01:28:12 ◼   ► And it has to really be worth it.

01:28:15 ◼   ► Like, because it's so, again, it puts such a burden.

01:28:18 ◼   ► It's so expensive.

01:28:20 ◼   ► And that will mean that all of the other features that we might want to add this fall

01:28:25 ◼   ► are not going to happen.

01:28:26 ◼   ► Like, that's how, like, that's how, I can't possibly express enough

01:28:31 ◼   ► how much of a burden this places on the community.

01:28:33 ◼   ► You see this, because if you recall, with the previous big redesign with iOS 7,

01:28:38 ◼   ► it took a long time before a lot of the apps on your phone,

01:28:42 ◼   ► or before most of the apps on your phone, were translated over.

01:28:45 ◼   ► And in fact, apps that are not made by enthusiasts,

01:28:49 ◼   ► and that don't care how many one-star reviews they have,

01:28:52 ◼   ► often never get updated.

01:28:54 ◼   ► Like, you know, the app for my mixer at the restaurant,

01:28:56 ◼   ► that doesn't even work in landscape mode,

01:28:57 ◼   ► that's never going to get updated for it.

01:28:59 ◼   ► Never.

01:28:59 ◼   ► Like, there's not a chance.

01:29:00 ◼   ► You know, how many apps on your phone are there from, you know,

01:29:03 ◼   ► like, that are just part of some hardware that you bought,

01:29:05 ◼   ► or that, you know, for, like, your dentist's booking software or whatever.

01:29:09 ◼   ► Like, none of that stuff's ever going to get updated.

01:29:11 ◼   ► So you enter this era of just, like, transitional, crappy user experiences

01:29:16 ◼   ► that are kind of blended old world, new world,

01:29:18 ◼   ► or they can force the new theme on all the old apps that aren't updated,

01:29:23 ◼   ► which will break them all.

01:29:24 ◼   ► So there's no...

01:29:26 ◼   ► I don't know if it'll break them all,

01:29:27 ◼   ► but visually they might look unexpected, let's say.

01:29:30 ◼   ► Because, like, again, I don't think it will literally break most things.

01:29:33 ◼   ► A new look will just cause things to look extremely awkward.

01:29:36 ◼   ► Maybe some text will be truncated where you didn't think...

01:29:38 ◼   ► Especially if they try to keep the metrics the same.

01:29:40 ◼   ► But I want to recall back to something that you said, Marco,

01:29:43 ◼   ► and I think a show or two ago,

01:29:45 ◼   ► which I think people might be remembering

01:29:47 ◼   ► and thinking it conflicts with what you're saying,

01:29:48 ◼   ► but it actually doesn't.

01:29:49 ◼   ► You had mentioned how iOS 7 was a gift to you

01:29:52 ◼   ► when you were developing Overcast

01:29:54 ◼   ► because it was so much simpler and required

01:29:56 ◼   ► with less, like, pixel-perfect, you know,

01:29:58 ◼   ► photorealistic artistic skills

01:30:00 ◼   ► and more just to be able to lurk with, like, text and white space

01:30:03 ◼   ► and solid colors and stuff.

01:30:05 ◼   ► That was a gift to you

01:30:06 ◼   ► because you were in the midst of developing an application

01:30:09 ◼   ► that was not out yet.

01:30:10 ◼   ► Yes.

01:30:11 ◼   ► It's a different situation when you already have an app

01:30:13 ◼   ► and they change...

01:30:14 ◼   ► They pull the rug out from under you

01:30:15 ◼   ► and change the look of every single thing.

01:30:16 ◼   ► So you built your app based on the widget set

01:30:18 ◼   ► from, you know, iOS, whatever you were doing

01:30:21 ◼   ► when you developed it,

01:30:21 ◼   ► and now here comes iOS 19

01:30:22 ◼   ► and everything looks different.

01:30:23 ◼   ► That's going to be true of this redesign as well.

01:30:26 ◼   ► It will actually be an advantage

01:30:28 ◼   ► for people who are just starting their app

01:30:30 ◼   ► at the right moment

01:30:31 ◼   ► because they will be the first

01:30:32 ◼   ► to be able to adopt this look and feel

01:30:34 ◼   ► because they don't...

01:30:35 ◼   ► They're not converting a legacy app.

01:30:37 ◼   ► They're, like, they're there from day one.

01:30:38 ◼   ► They hop right on board.

01:30:39 ◼   ► Their app is designed with this look in mind

01:30:41 ◼   ► from the start.

01:30:42 ◼   ► It is optimized and tweaked

01:30:44 ◼   ► and made to look correct

01:30:46 ◼   ► with the iOS 19 widget set, right?

01:30:49 ◼   ► And everybody who has an older app

01:30:51 ◼   ► has to go and convert theirs

01:30:53 ◼   ► and decide,

01:30:54 ◼   ► oh, what do I do with this screen?

01:30:55 ◼   ► I picked this because in the old look,

01:30:57 ◼   ► this looked best,

01:30:57 ◼   ► but the new one,

01:30:58 ◼   ► it doesn't look good at all.

01:30:59 ◼   ► Do I have to use...

01:31:00 ◼   ► Do I have to add another screen?

01:31:01 ◼   ► Can I use a different widget here?

01:31:04 ◼   ► Can I use a sheet instead of this thing?

01:31:06 ◼   ► So that's true of any of these changes

01:31:09 ◼   ► and what you said before, Marco, is so true.

01:31:11 ◼   ► And what I keep saying with...

01:31:13 ◼   ► To what end?

01:31:13 ◼   ► Like, if you're going to make a big change like this,

01:31:16 ◼   ► why?

01:31:16 ◼   ► What's...

01:31:17 ◼   ► What is the benefit

01:31:18 ◼   ► on the other side of this pain, right?

01:31:20 ◼   ► You know, what is it that is about your systems

01:31:24 ◼   ► that needs to be...

01:31:24 ◼   ► That demands this kind of overhaul?

01:31:26 ◼   ► And this is where we kind of

01:31:29 ◼   ► get a little bit into the spiraling,

01:31:31 ◼   ► but, like, before we get to that,

01:31:32 ◼   ► which I will soon,

01:31:34 ◼   ► I first want to say

01:31:36 ◼   ► the tiny optimistic part of this story

01:31:39 ◼   ► for me, personally.

01:31:40 ◼   ► And that is

01:31:41 ◼   ► that I have been

01:31:43 ◼   ► unhappy

01:31:45 ◼   ► with the direction

01:31:46 ◼   ► that the macOS UI

01:31:47 ◼   ► has been going in

01:31:48 ◼   ► for many years now.

01:31:49 ◼   ► We've talked about system settings

01:31:51 ◼   ► many times.

01:31:51 ◼   ► I'm currently making an app

01:31:53 ◼   ► using a bunch of the new

01:31:54 ◼   ► SwiftUI and macOS widgets

01:31:56 ◼   ► and buttons

01:31:57 ◼   ► and controls

01:31:58 ◼   ► and forms

01:31:59 ◼   ► and labels

01:31:59 ◼   ► and text fields

01:32:01 ◼   ► and all the things, right?

01:32:02 ◼   ► And I don't think

01:32:04 ◼   ► they're an improvement

01:32:05 ◼   ► over what AppKit

01:32:06 ◼   ► looked like a decade ago.

01:32:08 ◼   ► I think they're worse.

01:32:08 ◼   ► I think they're uglier.

01:32:09 ◼   ► I think they don't work as well.

01:32:10 ◼   ► So, on the Mac,

01:32:12 ◼   ► the answer to the question

01:32:14 ◼   ► to what end

01:32:15 ◼   ► could be,

01:32:17 ◼   ► in best case scenario,

01:32:18 ◼   ► hey, all those things

01:32:19 ◼   ► you don't like

01:32:20 ◼   ► about how the Mac

01:32:20 ◼   ► is looking and working,

01:32:21 ◼   ► now is an opportunity

01:32:23 ◼   ► to fix that,

01:32:25 ◼   ► to say,

01:32:26 ◼   ► we're going in the wrong direction.

01:32:27 ◼   ► We shouldn't have text fields

01:32:28 ◼   ► with no borders

01:32:29 ◼   ► with right-aligned text

01:32:30 ◼   ► in the passwords, right?

01:32:31 ◼   ► Like,

01:32:32 ◼   ► the toggle switches

01:32:34 ◼   ► and settings

01:32:34 ◼   ► and labels

01:32:35 ◼   ► 20 yards away

01:32:36 ◼   ► from the things

01:32:37 ◼   ► that they're labeling,

01:32:38 ◼   ► that's not good.

01:32:39 ◼   ► Let's come up

01:32:42 ◼   ► with a better look for that.

01:32:43 ◼   ► Let's just make

01:32:44 ◼   ► some more contrast

01:32:45 ◼   ► and more visual hierarchy

01:32:46 ◼   ► and not just have everything

01:32:47 ◼   ► to be dark gray everywhere.

01:32:48 ◼   ► On the Mac,

01:32:50 ◼   ► there is,

01:32:51 ◼   ► I think,

01:32:51 ◼   ► a need,

01:32:53 ◼   ► a problem

01:32:53 ◼   ► that needs to be solved.

01:32:55 ◼   ► that the current notion

01:32:57 ◼   ► of modern Mac OS UI

01:32:59 ◼   ► is ugly

01:33:00 ◼   ► and works worse

01:33:00 ◼   ► than it used to.

01:33:01 ◼   ► That's my optimistic take

01:33:04 ◼   ► is like,

01:33:05 ◼   ► you know,

01:33:05 ◼   ► I don't think

01:33:07 ◼   ► iOS and iPad OS

01:33:08 ◼   ► are dying

01:33:09 ◼   ► for a UI overhaul

01:33:11 ◼   ► and obviously

01:33:12 ◼   ► it's so much more important

01:33:12 ◼   ► than the phone

01:33:13 ◼   ► because it's such

01:33:13 ◼   ► a more popular platform.

01:33:14 ◼   ► But the Mac

01:33:15 ◼   ► kind of has felt at sea

01:33:17 ◼   ► for a while now

01:33:18 ◼   ► with any new UI

01:33:20 ◼   ► they were allowed

01:33:20 ◼   ► basically being met

01:33:22 ◼   ► by the Mac's biggest fans

01:33:23 ◼   ► with either a shrug

01:33:24 ◼   ► or a frown.

01:33:26 ◼   ► Whereas in the early days

01:33:27 ◼   ► of,

01:33:27 ◼   ► especially the early days

01:33:28 ◼   ► of Mac OS X,

01:33:29 ◼   ► Aqua had everybody jazzed

01:33:31 ◼   ► even though it had tons

01:33:32 ◼   ► of detractors as well

01:33:32 ◼   ► but it was certainly exciting

01:33:34 ◼   ► and over the years

01:33:35 ◼   ► they have refined

01:33:36 ◼   ► the Mac interface

01:33:36 ◼   ► and there were good years

01:33:37 ◼   ► and bad years.

01:33:38 ◼   ► Sometimes the dock

01:33:38 ◼   ► was really shiny,

01:33:39 ◼   ► sometimes it wasn't.

01:33:40 ◼   ► Sometimes they added

01:33:42 ◼   ► stitched leather

01:33:43 ◼   ► to the calendar app,

01:33:44 ◼   ► you know,

01:33:45 ◼   ► but like there's been

01:33:46 ◼   ► ups and downs

01:33:46 ◼   ► but always I feel like

01:33:47 ◼   ► we're sort of,

01:33:48 ◼   ► you know,

01:33:48 ◼   ► driving an unwinding road

01:33:51 ◼   ► towards improvement

01:33:51 ◼   ► except for in the last,

01:33:53 ◼   ► let's say,

01:33:54 ◼   ► five to ten years

01:33:54 ◼   ► where a bunch of,

01:33:56 ◼   ► even just forgetting

01:33:57 ◼   ► the widgets,

01:33:57 ◼   ► a bunch of things

01:33:58 ◼   ► that happened

01:33:58 ◼   ► like do you remember,

01:33:59 ◼   ► I don't even remember

01:33:59 ◼   ► which OS update this was,

01:34:00 ◼   ► we've already established

01:34:01 ◼   ► that we can't remember

01:34:01 ◼   ► the names of the OS S's

01:34:02 ◼   ► but I think long time

01:34:05 ◼   ► Mac users will have this feeling

01:34:07 ◼   ► that it used to be easier

01:34:09 ◼   ► to tell which window

01:34:11 ◼   ► was active,

01:34:12 ◼   ► which window was in front.

01:34:13 ◼   ► Like they made an OS change

01:34:15 ◼   ► where like the front window

01:34:17 ◼   ► was not as much more prominent

01:34:19 ◼   ► than the windows behind it.

01:34:21 ◼   ► like they used to,

01:34:22 ◼   ► you know,

01:34:22 ◼   ► in the old days

01:34:23 ◼   ► they'd have like,

01:34:24 ◼   ► the windows would be,

01:34:25 ◼   ► the background windows

01:34:26 ◼   ► would be lighter

01:34:27 ◼   ► and the front window

01:34:27 ◼   ► would be darker.

01:34:28 ◼   ► Sometimes the foreground window

01:34:29 ◼   ► would have more detail

01:34:30 ◼   ► than the background windows.

01:34:31 ◼   ► The foreground window

01:34:31 ◼   ► has always had a bigger shadow

01:34:33 ◼   ► and still does

01:34:33 ◼   ► but they made some changes

01:34:34 ◼   ► in recent years

01:34:35 ◼   ► that really just kind of

01:34:37 ◼   ► flattens out the UI

01:34:38 ◼   ► a little bit

01:34:38 ◼   ► and makes foreground

01:34:39 ◼   ► and background windows

01:34:40 ◼   ► look much more like each other.

01:34:42 ◼   ► They have taken away borders

01:34:44 ◼   ► on things,

01:34:44 ◼   ► things like text fields.

01:34:46 ◼   ► There are things

01:34:47 ◼   ► in the Mac OS UI

01:34:48 ◼   ► that you can't tell

01:34:49 ◼   ► our controls

01:34:49 ◼   ► in sort of an iOS 7 style.

01:34:51 ◼   ► There are problems,

01:34:53 ◼   ► UI problems

01:34:54 ◼   ► to be solved on the Mac

01:34:55 ◼   ► and in theory

01:34:57 ◼   ► this could be

01:34:58 ◼   ► a way to fix them.

01:34:59 ◼   ► Now,

01:35:00 ◼   ► now it's time to spiral.

01:35:01 ◼   ► How much confidence

01:35:03 ◼   ► do we have

01:35:03 ◼   ► that literally

01:35:05 ◼   ► anything they do

01:35:06 ◼   ► to any of these

01:35:07 ◼   ► operating systems

01:35:07 ◼   ► will be an improvement?

01:35:08 ◼   ► Yeah,

01:35:09 ◼   ► that,

01:35:09 ◼   ► so,

01:35:09 ◼   ► that's the bigger concern

01:35:12 ◼   ► for me

01:35:12 ◼   ► is like what they have

01:35:13 ◼   ► demonstrated

01:35:14 ◼   ► on the Mac

01:35:15 ◼   ► for the last,

01:35:16 ◼   ► you know,

01:35:16 ◼   ► decade or whatever.

01:35:17 ◼   ► pick any platform really.

01:35:18 ◼   ► No,

01:35:19 ◼   ► but especially,

01:35:19 ◼   ► see,

01:35:20 ◼   ► the Mac I think

01:35:21 ◼   ► is the most in danger

01:35:23 ◼   ► with this

01:35:24 ◼   ► because

01:35:24 ◼   ► I'm in danger.

01:35:25 ◼   ► What they have shown

01:35:26 ◼   ► with the Mac

01:35:27 ◼   ► is that

01:35:28 ◼   ► they currently

01:35:29 ◼   ► do not have

01:35:31 ◼   ► enough resources

01:35:32 ◼   ► devoted to the Mac

01:35:33 ◼   ► or possibly enough talent

01:35:35 ◼   ► left in the company.

01:35:36 ◼   ► Enough expertise.

01:35:37 ◼   ► They don't,

01:35:38 ◼   ► they don't know

01:35:39 ◼   ► what to do.

01:35:39 ◼   ► Yeah,

01:35:40 ◼   ► like what we've seen

01:35:41 ◼   ► is that

01:35:41 ◼   ► whenever they

01:35:42 ◼   ► change the Mac UI

01:35:44 ◼   ► recently,

01:35:45 ◼   ► it's usually worse.