00:00:30 ◼ ► I am joined by my first in a cavalcade of all-star co-hosts. It's Casey Liss. Hi, Casey.
00:00:37 ◼ ► Hello, Jason. I am so thankful to be here. I am so very lucky to be the first one. It's
00:00:43 ◼ ► a bold strategy for you going with me first because it's only downhill from here, but I
00:00:47 ◼ ► Let's see if it works out for me. The truth is I was kicking off with Steven and then Mike
00:00:56 ◼ ► said, no, no, no, no, no. I'll be there that week. And that was last week. And so you're
00:01:00 ◼ ► going to be second track, which I would argue if you're making a mixtape or a mixed CD or
00:01:04 ◼ ► a playlist, as High Fidelity would tell you that number two, the second track, it's very
00:01:15 ◼ ► You end up being number one. And that's okay too. So we're going to start this episode with
00:01:20 ◼ ► a Snell Talk question. This question comes from me, Jason Snell, to all of us, including
00:01:29 ◼ ► you, Casey, because the question on everybody's mind is, did Mike and Adina have the baby yet?
00:01:34 ◼ ► And I am happy to reveal that they did. It was a question. Mike was like, I'm not sure if
00:01:40 ◼ ► that's going to be public by the time you do upgrade. But about an hour ago, he was like,
00:01:43 ◼ ► yeah, okay, you could do it. Yes. Please welcome to the world, baby Sophia. My understanding
00:01:48 ◼ ► is that everybody in the Hurley family is doing okay. There's an Instagram post. There's a picture
00:02:01 ◼ ► And Mike posted on Instagram, Feb 22, which made me laugh because that's how not English he is.
00:02:08 ◼ ► He didn't do 22 February. He did February 22. But congratulations to the Hurleys. That's so great.
00:02:15 ◼ ► It was unexpected and sudden, according to Mike. They were not due until later this week. This was
00:02:23 ◼ ► going to be his padding week. See, getting used to it already that nothing goes as planned with
00:02:30 ◼ ► children, both in the good and the bad ways. Getting used to it from the start. But no, incredible
00:02:35 ◼ ► congratulations from me as well to all three of the Hurleys. This is incredibly good news. I haven't had
00:02:40 ◼ ► the chance to ask him all the questions because all I know is, like you said, it was unexpected. And I
00:02:46 ◼ ► don't know, other than the obvious, I don't know what that means. So I'm very excited and curious to
00:02:51 ◼ ► hear what the birth story is to the degree that the two of them are willing to share, which may or may
00:02:55 ◼ ► not ever be public, to be clear. But I'm excited to hear it. And I'm very, very happy for them.
00:03:00 ◼ ► And like you said, to the best that I've been told, everyone's doing great. Obviously, everyone is
00:03:10 ◼ ► Yeah. No, it's great. It's great news. I'm really excited about it. I'm so happy for them. I do. I
00:03:14 ◼ ► will say, I always, when I have, I talked to a friend who's had a baby and they say that it went
00:03:19 ◼ ► really fast. They're saying it like, oh man, it went really fast. Like they're, they got the thousand
00:03:24 ◼ ► yard stare and they're like, it went so fast. I can't even. And I just, it makes me mad because
00:03:36 ◼ ► Lauren was in labor with Jamie for more than a day, I think into a second day. And they were
00:03:42 ◼ ► like, you know, this isn't progressing. I mean, it was, it was, uh, and, and with Julian was
00:03:46 ◼ ► very similar. It went on and on and on and on. And so I do have a friend who like literally,
00:03:52 ◼ ► um, she, she took a, a taxi to the hospital and, um, they got her into her, her room and
00:04:00 ◼ ► she went into the bathroom of her room before she'd ever been in the bed. And she just had
00:04:04 ◼ ► the baby in the bathroom hospital room. And that's like, that's fast. Right. And I'm like,
00:04:10 ◼ ► that seems horrible for you, but also kind of good for you. Cause it just happened and then
00:04:15 ◼ ► it was over. Attracted is not good. Anyway. So yes, congratulations to Hurleys. The paternity
00:04:20 ◼ ► clock already had started, but now it starts for real, real. Uh, don't know when Mike will
00:04:28 ◼ ► I've got, I've lined up. I have one slot, I think, unless he comes back early cause the
00:04:31 ◼ ► baby was early, but probably not. Um, I think it's more likely he'll come back later rather
00:04:35 ◼ ► than earlier where he'll say, I'm not ready yet, but I've got a long list of people lined
00:04:41 ◼ ► up starting with Casey to fill in for Mike. So I hope everybody enjoys that. And then of
00:04:50 ◼ ► I already can tell you that because this is his way of reminding me all the work he does
00:04:55 ◼ ► on upgrade. Right. Thank you, Mike. Uh, now I would like to turn to a brand new segment on
00:05:00 ◼ ► upgrade. That's right. Does Mike know about it? No, he doesn't. Uh, it is a new segment that
00:05:05 ◼ ► we're inaugurating right now and it's called fatherly advice, where I turn to my co-host who
00:05:12 ◼ ► is a father himself. And, and we provide Mike with up here at the top of the show where Mike
00:05:18 ◼ ► might still might actually listen to it with a little story or a tidbit about being a parent
00:05:23 ◼ ► advice, uh, whatever you want. And Casey, it's your turn. Do you have some fatherly advice
00:05:34 ◼ ► Even better. That's the best kind. Uh, yeah. So coincidentally, I'm going to, I'm going to plug,
00:05:39 ◼ ► uh, our show, Mike in my show. Uh, we are doing an episode of analog that Mike had mostly coordinated
00:05:45 ◼ ► on his side. Uh, that'll be out in the month of March where he's collecting fatherly advice from all
00:05:51 ◼ ► of his co-hosts, I presume, including you, Jason. Um, and so there's going to be a lot in there,
00:05:55 ◼ ► but I'm going to, I don't recall exactly what I had told him, uh, when we spoke about this and
00:05:59 ◼ ► collect, he collected my two cents, uh, a week or two back. But what I'm going to go with is
00:06:03 ◼ ► that it's important. So many things are important when being a parent, but it's important among many
00:06:10 ◼ ► other things to be incredibly flexible and understand when you need to pick your battles.
00:06:16 ◼ ► That's true of pretty much any relationship in life, but especially with parenting and you definitely
00:06:20 ◼ ► know, need to know which battles to pick and you'll learn over time. And as a silly anecdote
00:06:26 ◼ ► for this, which is kind of actually tangentially related. I remember before I was a dad that I would
00:06:32 ◼ ► look at new parents in, this is when I still went to an office and whatnot. I would look at new parents
00:06:36 ◼ ► that came in with like, uh, baby stuff all over their shirts. I don't want to be any more graphic
00:06:41 ◼ ► than that, but you know, typically on the shoulder area, there's baby stuff all over their shirts.
00:06:45 ◼ ► Who knows where it came from Casey? Honestly, nobody knows. That's the thing. Uh, they would come in
00:06:49 ◼ ► with this like stuff all over their shirt. And I'd be like, what are you doing? You couldn't
00:06:53 ◼ ► spend the time to just change before you got to work. And I think once I went back after Aaron had
00:06:58 ◼ ► Declan and Aaron had very long labor for both Declan and Michaela, uh, I think it was within a week or so
00:07:04 ◼ ► of going back to work that I looked down and I saw a stain on one of my shoulders and I realized,
00:07:10 ◼ ► Oh, yep. I get it now. I get it. The things that I thought mattered, they don't matter and new things
00:07:17 ◼ ► matter now and that's okay. And so you got to be flexible and you got to know when to choose your
00:07:21 ◼ ► battles somewhat within yourself. Do I, do I really need to change the shirt or not? But often and
00:07:27 ◼ ► usually with your children. And I don't mean that that sounds negative to say, pick your battles.
00:07:30 ◼ ► I don't mean it that way at all, but you have to figure out when to be flexible and when to not.
00:07:35 ◼ ► And, you know, I don't have any specific advice with regard to that. You know, obviously each
00:07:39 ◼ ► situation is different. Each parenting style is different. Um, but it's important to realize
00:07:44 ◼ ► that, Oh, you know what, even though this is not what I prefer, it'll be fine. It'll be fine.
00:07:49 ◼ ► You know? And, and I, I don't think that being a helicopter parent and, you know, steering the child
00:07:55 ◼ ► every second of every day and telling them exactly what to do when is not personally my, my approach
00:08:00 ◼ ► to parenting. And so that implies that you're going to have to let them do something that's maybe
00:08:05 ◼ ► a little bit more dangerous than you want, because that's part of learning is screwing up and getting
00:08:10 ◼ ► hurt and allowing them to pick themselves up and helping them pick themselves up. Uh, so be flexible
00:08:15 ◼ ► and pick your battles is I think what I'm going to go with for today. I mean, you're, you strike me as
00:08:18 ◼ ► somebody knowing you a little bit about who likes it the way he likes it, right? Like I like it a
00:08:23 ◼ ► certain, you have your opinion, like this is the way to do it. This is the way I like it. And boy,
00:08:27 ◼ ► does having kids disabuse you of that really rapidly because you just on the priority list,
00:08:33 ◼ ► do you realize that that you thought that was priority number one and it's actually priority
00:08:36 ◼ ► number 100 and that your kids have the top 99 priorities. So you just have to roll with the
00:08:41 ◼ ► punches and, and that's just the truth of it. I love what you said about letting them fail. Um,
00:08:47 ◼ ► I, and learn, right. Or, or make a mistake and learn. And, and there was a point where one of our
00:08:53 ◼ ► kids had, had gotten way behind. I don't even remember which one now, honestly, it's been so long.
00:08:57 ◼ ► I got behind on their homework and the teacher was like, they need to, they've not turned in
00:09:03 ◼ ► all this homework and it's going to be not, it's not going to count and they need to do it and all
00:09:07 ◼ ► these things. And Lauren got really kind of upset about it and said, they're going to get a bad grade
00:09:12 ◼ ► and all this stuff. And I said, okay, first off it's sixth grade or fifth grade, the grade they get
00:09:18 ◼ ► has no impact on their life at all, will not affect their life trajectory in any way. And I said,
00:09:23 ◼ ► we can, we, we can give them feedback, but maybe having a whole bunch of the work that they didn't
00:09:30 ◼ ► do get marked as a zero and they get a bad grade in the midterm report card in fifth grade when it
00:09:37 ◼ ► doesn't matter is a good learning experience for them. And it was one of those things that like,
00:09:42 ◼ ► oh yeah. And I don't think Lauren necessarily agreed with me because I think she's like, no,
00:09:46 ◼ ► it's a bad grade. You shouldn't get them. And I was like, I know you shouldn't get them.
00:09:50 ◼ ► I know, but maybe getting them is that little shock that that kid needs to go. Oh, oh no,
00:09:56 ◼ ► I can't let that slide. And better to do it now when the grades don't matter than for them to do it in
00:10:02 ◼ ► high school where it's going to kill their, you know, a list of colleges because they messed up when
00:10:08 ◼ ► it, uh, you know, when somebody is looking. No, I couldn't agree with you more. Just a very quick
00:10:13 ◼ ► anecdote about my own life. I was a relatively decent student and I like to think of myself as
00:10:18 ◼ ► reasonably bright. I was never, you know, a valedictorian or anything like that, but I was a
00:10:22 ◼ ► pretty good student. And this was all through elementary school, middle school, high school.
00:10:25 ◼ ► I went to a very small high school. Um, and I don't recall where I graduated within our like a hundred
00:10:30 ◼ ► person graduating class, but ultimately I didn't really have to try that hard growing up. And that
00:10:36 ◼ ► sounds like a flex, but it actually ended up being very much to my detriment because then I got to
00:10:41 ◼ ► college and suddenly not only did I need to try, I needed to try real freaking hard. And so it ended
00:10:48 ◼ ► up that I really had wished for failures in the past, as silly as that may sound, because that would
00:10:54 ◼ ► have better equipped me. This is exactly what you were saying. That would have better equipped me for
00:10:58 ◼ ► when I really needed it, you know, here at 18 years old, just arriving at Virginia Tech and realizing,
00:11:04 ◼ ► oh no, I don't know how to study. I thought I did, but I don't. Yeah. This is going to be a problem.
00:11:09 ◼ ► Yeah. And you're, and you're now you're surrounded with a bunch of people who were also the same
00:11:14 ◼ ► student that you were. And you used to be surrounded with people where you're like, you could get by
00:11:17 ◼ ► because everybody else, oh, those guys all have to work, but I don't. And now guess what? Those guys
00:11:21 ◼ ► aren't in your college with you. They're, it's, it's all people with better grades than you who are in
00:11:26 ◼ ► your college with you. Yep. Yep. So true. Uh, yeah, yeah. Well, that is fatherly advice. Thank you,
00:11:32 ◼ ► Casey. And, uh, and, uh, yeah, I'm going to try to do that with many of my, uh, there's a,
00:11:37 ◼ ► I might be inviting lots of fathers onto the podcast. I'm just saying it may happen that way.
00:11:43 ◼ ► And so, yeah, it, uh, it's a fun time for us to think about Mike and everything. Mike, uh,
00:12:04 ◼ ► Yeehaw. Thank you. Uh, a couple items in rumor roundup. Uh, by the way, it is actually, there's
00:12:11 ◼ ► only one item, Mark Gurman's, uh, newsletter, which very kindly generates itself on Sunday,
00:12:15 ◼ ► uh, for us to pick apart on Monday. Didn't really have any rumors in it this week, but there is a,
00:12:20 ◼ ► but yet Casey list came through and texted me this morning when I was having my tea in the morning
00:12:24 ◼ ► saying, here's a story. Uh, we'll link to the article on the verge reporting about these leaks
00:12:30 ◼ ► from a leaker named Majin Boo, who says, uh, this is what the iPhone 17 is going to look like.
00:12:37 ◼ ► And I would say if you're following along with upgrade and you're following along with iPhone 17
00:12:42 ◼ ► rumors, you will not be surprised at this. Uh, it is what we've been talking about, but this is just
00:12:48 ◼ ► saying again, reinforcing the idea that what Apple's doing with the industrial design of three of their
00:12:53 ◼ ► phones this fall is they're taking, uh, the, I guess, what is John Syracuse to call it on ATP,
00:12:59 ◼ ► the camera Mesa, uh, and extending it, uh, all the way across. So it's like the, the, the Mesa is now
00:13:08 ◼ ► just a full bar at the top of the iPhone, which is a very different look. Even if the, the, the camera
00:13:16 ◼ ► bump is so large now that you might as well just embrace that it's going all the way across. Um,
00:13:22 ◼ ► and, and of course Mesa Spanish for table. And I would say, if I had to describe this to people
00:13:26 ◼ ► who haven't seen it, uh, it used to be a table for four up there, but now it's going to be a table
00:13:30 ◼ ► for six. It's so true. And that's what's, that's what's going on here. I don't, I mean, we tend to
00:13:36 ◼ ► get used to everything, but I look at this and I'm like, Hmm, I don't, I mean, I know Google pixel does
00:13:41 ◼ ► this. I, I, I, I don't know how I feel about the, the industrial design of the bar going all the way
00:13:47 ◼ ► across. But honestly, I was, uh, on a zoom call with my, uh, with my family last night with Lauren's,
00:13:54 ◼ ► uh, mom and dad and siblings. And we do those in the living room on, um, on Apple TV. And I use
00:14:00 ◼ ► continuity camera and I was looking at the camera bump on my iPhone 16 and thinking, yeah, they're all
00:14:06 ◼ ► ugly. Like it's not, it's not like this is going to make it uglier. In fact, this might make it a little
00:14:10 ◼ ► more consistent in that it's, it's pretending, right. It's pretending that it's not going all
00:14:16 ◼ ► the way across the phone, but at this point it's going almost all the way across. Why not embrace
00:14:19 ◼ ► it? Yeah, I, I think you're right that a familiarity is what's making me familiarity with the current
00:14:26 ◼ ► Mesa, the table for four, the four top, um, the familiar familiarity with the four top, if you will,
00:14:32 ◼ ► is what makes this very distasteful to me at first glance. And visually it's not doing a lot for me.
00:14:38 ◼ ► And there's a lot of empty space in the span between the, the triangle O cameras and the dual,
00:14:49 ◼ ► And there's just a lot of the flash. I think it's the flash and the lidar on the, on the far side.
00:14:57 ◼ ► Right. Exactly. And, and I presume that's because they need the two cameras next to each other for,
00:15:03 ◼ ► um, spatial video, but I'm not entirely sure. I mean, maybe they could have made like a Cyclops
00:15:08 ◼ ► looking thing by putting the other camera dead center. I don't, maybe that would have been worse,
00:15:11 ◼ ► but that being said, even though visually this doesn't do a lot for me, the thought of having
00:15:18 ◼ ► a more consistent back, especially with which to set my phone down, that sounds very appealing.
00:15:29 ◼ ► if I understand this, right, it looks like that the metal there's metal for the camera Mesa and the
00:15:37 ◼ ► surround around the edge of the phone. I'm having a hard time painting a word picture here, but
00:15:42 ◼ ► the surround around the edge of the phone is metal. And then there's a large glass section that is
00:15:47 ◼ ► within the metal that permits presumably not only cellular radio, wifi radio, but also, uh,
00:15:52 ◼ ► Qi charging and MagSafe charging. And so the key here is that if I'm understanding this, right,
00:15:57 ◼ ► that, and if you look at the photo, if you're looking at this show art or what have you,
00:16:01 ◼ ► if you look at the photo, it's like this maroony red section. Um, and if that is glass,
00:16:06 ◼ ► then that means there's a layer, if you will, of metal around it, which is incredibly important.
00:16:13 ◼ ► I presume for more robust drop survivability. You know, if you drop your phone that I've shattered
00:16:19 ◼ ► a couple of back glasses on iPhones and it's infuriating every time because you feel like,
00:16:24 ◼ ► why is this all glass? Why is this all glass? Couldn't we put something around this? And that's
00:16:30 ◼ ► what these renders seem to indicate is that they're putting a little sliver of metal around the whole
00:16:34 ◼ ► thing in order to presumably help with, um, you know, how the strength and robustness for lack of a
00:16:41 ◼ ► better word. I don't know. I don't know. It's, it's right. They, they only know, I think the truth
00:16:46 ◼ ► is that a lot of this is coming from case leak where they know, um, they, they, all they can do
00:16:50 ◼ ► is intuit what it looks like based on the dimensions of, and the shapes that they've been given. And so
00:16:55 ◼ ► there's a real question about, you know, what is in that cutout area? Is that raised? Is it just a
00:17:00 ◼ ► different material? Um, and, and then what happens when you drop it? And you would think that that big
00:17:06 ◼ ► table would capture many of the drops and the edges at that point, because it's raising it up.
00:17:11 ◼ ► And honestly, what is it like to use it on a table? Does that stabilize it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right.
00:17:16 ◼ ► Because that would be, I was, I was tapping on my iPhone, uh, on the, on the tabletop the other day
00:17:21 ◼ ► and being like, yep, that's right. Don't tap in the bottom right corner. Everything just wiggles.
00:17:24 ◼ ► Uh, maybe this would be better for that. I don't know, but I don't love the look, but I guess what I'm
00:17:30 ◼ ► saying is I don't love the look, but I don't really love the look. When I look at it and think about it,
00:17:34 ◼ ► the existing camera thing is not particularly attractive either. It's just necessary. And what
00:17:42 ◼ ► they're doing is they're, they're making it so that the phone is thinner, except for the part
00:17:47 ◼ ► that's not. Um, and this is, this is just like kind of embracing that and that, that, that reality of
00:17:52 ◼ ► it. And hopefully those cameras on it are not themselves sticking out, but that's what happens
00:17:58 ◼ ► currently. So maybe so. Yeah. Yeah. I was thinking about that too, that it would bum me out if the Mesa
00:18:04 ◼ ► continues to have even more depth. I mean, that's to your point on the peaks in the Mesa. Yeah. And
00:18:10 ◼ ► to your point, that is the way it is now. And it's like, it's not that big a deal, but I don't know
00:18:13 ◼ ► having it be completely flush would be such an improvement. I think both aesthetically and, you
00:18:18 ◼ ► know, in terms of sitting it down and so on and so forth. So I would love it if these were sitting
00:18:23 ◼ ► flush. It doesn't give me vibes that they are flush said differently. I think you're correct that
00:18:28 ◼ ► they do protrude a little bit more, which is too bad, but you know, I'll take what I can get.
00:18:33 ◼ ► And even though, again, aesthetically, this is doing very little for me, I think in terms of
00:18:44 ◼ ► Oh, nice. I like what you did there. All right. We're going to move on to yet another segment.
00:18:50 ◼ ► That's right. All before the first ad break, no less. Yet another segment that I have art
00:19:03 ◼ ► I know. It's weird. Just a real quick one. Vision OS 2.4, developer beta one, was released
00:19:10 ◼ ► by Apple. This is the thing that basically Mark Gurman reported about a week ago because
00:19:17 ◼ ► somebody who got the Apple briefing obviously talked to him. I mean, just as somebody who
00:19:22 ◼ ► got the Apple briefing, I can just tell you now somebody who got that briefing talked to
00:19:28 ◼ ► Presumably whoever got it had their own channel that they could have done a story for under
00:19:34 ◼ ► embargo and instead just decided to just what the heck, just give it to Mark Gurman and see
00:19:38 ◼ ► what he does with it. Anyway, so it's everything that was already reported. But anyway, Apple
00:19:41 ◼ ► intelligence is in there now. And then there's a bunch of stuff that's not in there now,
00:19:45 ◼ ► but will be there at some point that they told us about, which kind of frustrates me because I
00:19:49 ◼ ► installed the beta on my iPhone and on my Vision Pro in order to do this. So the Apple intelligence
00:19:54 ◼ ► stuff is what you'd expect, right? It's writing tools and image playground and all that stuff is
00:19:58 ◼ ► there now. And, you know, one of the things when they mentioned Apple intelligence and they
00:20:03 ◼ ► introduced it back last June is they didn't mention the Vision Pro. And we were told, I don't
00:20:08 ◼ ► know if you heard this, Casey, but I heard from sort of behind the scenes, somebody was like,
00:20:12 ◼ ► oh, it'll come to the Vision Pro. Don't worry about that. But it wasn't on the record. Wasn't
00:20:15 ◼ ► official and there was no timeframe. Well, here it is, right? So here it is. They say it's
00:20:19 ◼ ► going to ship in April. It's in beta now, but there are other things that I think are way
00:20:35 ◼ ► but we got a briefing, uh, the same, I think it was the same day. And, uh, they, they spoke
00:20:40 ◼ ► about a spatial gallery app, which they basically said, this is my interpretation anyway, that there's
00:20:46 ◼ ► going to be spatial content. And I don't believe it's immersive. Is that correct? To the best of
00:20:53 ◼ ► your knowledge, it's simply spatial content. It's not immersive, right? That's this is spatial
00:20:57 ◼ ► spatial means not immersive basically. So 3d, um, stuff, pictures, right? And also panoramas,
00:21:05 ◼ ► which aren't panoramas are in here and they're not 3d panoramas. I don't think, I think they're
00:21:10 ◼ ► just panoramas that wrap around you, but it's like, this is the other stuff. That's not immersive
00:21:14 ◼ ► video basically. Right. So again, and I have a lot of trouble describing this to people that don't have
00:21:20 ◼ ► a lot of time with the vision pro, but if you think about it, there's, you know, you're, you're
00:21:28 ◼ ► regular video. Then you're looking at a rectangle or a square in space and there's depth within
00:21:32 ◼ ► that rectangle or square and that's spatial. That's what we're talking about. And then immersive
00:21:37 ◼ ► is when you can actually tilt your head and look around and see different, you know, a different
00:21:42 ◼ ► perspective. It's a 480 degree filling your vision, uh, and 3d kind of thing. And that's the,
00:21:58 ◼ ► wrapping around you to give you that kind of full thing. These are the other, yeah, the
00:22:09 ◼ ► sort of in the sense that it's sort of like, here's some stuff we want to show you. It's
00:22:29 ◼ ► the demo, they showed that there's some, um, there's some third party 3d content that they're
00:22:35 ◼ ► highlighting, which is nice. Um, but also there, um, there's Apple stuff. And my question is,
00:22:49 ◼ ► the little clapboard in front of him from shrinking that, uh, so like, okay, but what I don't know
00:22:57 ◼ ► is, and they, and they say that they've got severance content too, although I don't think
00:23:00 ◼ ► I saw that, but what I don't know is, is this what that rumor was about Monarch where they
00:23:07 ◼ ► said Apple was, had a 3d camera on set for behind the scenes stuff, but we never saw it.
00:23:12 ◼ ► And because, because what I'm afraid is that this is like a picture of Jason Siegel behind
00:23:20 ◼ ► the scenes. And that's all it is that like, here's our extra content in the spatial gallery.
00:23:25 ◼ ► It's a photo that's in 3d that somebody took with an iPhone or whatever on the set. And it's
00:23:30 ◼ ► like, that's sort of interesting, but like I, what I'm hoping is that this will actually
00:23:36 ◼ ► contain some 3d video content as well, but that, that, that, that maybe, cause we've been
00:23:42 ◼ ► frustrated all of us who are kind of fans of this immersive stuff that there hasn't been
00:23:47 ◼ ► any immersive stuff. That's been like behind the scenes on an Apple show or something is,
00:24:01 ◼ ► My fear is that it's like, Hey, it's like looking through a view master or something that's a throwback
00:24:06 ◼ ► where it's like, Hey, here's Jason Siegel in 3d. Yep. Yep. And then you're like, okay. And then
00:24:11 ◼ ► you swipe to the next one. So we'll see what's in the spatial gallery, but, um, but it could be
00:24:16 ◼ ► interesting because that is the idea is they want to also highlight third-party apps that have
00:24:20 ◼ ► interesting content. So you could imagine the IMAX app might show up in here and the, the, the,
00:24:27 ◼ ► some other there, I have had, uh, some other people send me links to like other 3d content apps on
00:24:32 ◼ ► vision pro. And this is a way for Apple to sort of like float that stuff up. So if you're a vision pro
00:24:37 ◼ ► user, you can see that stuff. And then there are links off to like those apps and stuff, which is
00:24:42 ◼ ► it's, I don't, so I'm, I'm afraid the spatial gallery is not going to really kind of like be earth
00:24:47 ◼ ► shattering, but, um, but it is the answer to the question. Why is Apple not trying to push more of
00:24:52 ◼ ► this stuff to, to, and show off what the vision pro can do? I think this is them trying.
00:24:57 ◼ ► Yeah. Agreed. And what I like about the spatial gallery gallery is not only is it giving us more
00:25:04 ◼ ► unique content, you know, it's not immersive as we discussed, but at least it's stuff that's
00:25:09 ◼ ► if depending on how you classify it, you could argue is unique to the vision pro or certainly within
00:25:14 ◼ ► the Apple ecosystem anyway, is unique to the vision pro. And what I love is that the, the
00:25:19 ◼ ► implication here, if not the direct statement from Apple is that it will be updated regularly.
00:25:24 ◼ ► And I mean, to their credit, they're doing more immersive. There's Steve, it seems like they're
00:25:28 ◼ ► picking up a little steam on the immersive stuff, but still not as much as I would like. And I think
00:25:32 ◼ ► I speak for you in saying that. Um, and so here at least it's not immersive, but at least we're
00:25:37 ◼ ► getting more unique stuff for the vision pro. And the other thing that I really like about this,
00:25:41 ◼ ► and they did not say this to be clear, this is me now, uh, wish casting is if you have a mechanism
00:25:47 ◼ ► by which there, there is a place that people could, or that, that companies or, you know, uh, people that
00:25:53 ◼ ► Apple have a relationship with can send their content and then it can be shown to users.
00:25:59 ◼ ► I could imagine them opening this up to anyone and saying, Hey, if you just happen to be a very
00:26:04 ◼ ► skilled amateur photographer and you take, you know, a really great panorama of something,
00:26:09 ◼ ► submit it to Apple and maybe it'll get featured again. This was not stated. This is just me
00:26:13 ◼ ► I would go further and say, I wouldn't be surprised if there is a shot spatially on iPhone contest or
00:26:25 ◼ ► Um, that, that might be a way that they might structure all that. Um, there is also like there
00:26:30 ◼ ► is for the Apple watch. There is now going to be a vision pro app on the, on iOS, on iPhones and
00:26:35 ◼ ► iPads, uh, vision pro app. Um, not, you know, vision pro stands alone, unlike the watch, which
00:26:41 ◼ ► sort of doesn't stand alone and you need it for maintenance. But what they're trying to do here,
00:26:44 ◼ ► it actually reminded me a lot of, um, the app that meta makes for the quest, um, where you sort of
00:26:56 ◼ ► browse what's going on, browse what's in the app store. And my understanding is you can send,
00:27:02 ◼ ► you basically can get apps and they will be queued up and downloaded by your vision pro
00:27:07 ◼ ► when you're not, I think when you're not using it, as long as it's awake. Um, and that is,
00:27:12 ◼ ► and media as well, that you'd be able to like take media and say, put that on my vision pro
00:27:18 ◼ ► and it will be there when you put it on later, which is, again, I've done that on the quest
00:27:22 ◼ ► a lot where I have bought, I've heard, I've heard about apps and then I've, I've sent them
00:27:27 ◼ ► to the, the meta quest from the meta quest app. So, um, uh, it's just another like laying,
00:27:34 ◼ ► laying more foundational work. And I think this shows how, what a, uh, early stage product this
00:27:40 ◼ ► is, right. And to be, to be kind about it, like this is, this is something that they could
00:27:44 ◼ ► have shipped day one, but there was no way they, it was too early for them to do it, but they
00:27:48 ◼ ► are now putting in the work to get something like a vision pro app on iOS. Yeah. And I think the key
00:27:55 ◼ ► difference, if I understood correctly from the briefing, the key difference here though, is
00:27:58 ◼ ► at least the way it used to be when the Apple watch was new was that the Apple watch app only showed up.
00:28:04 ◼ ► If I recall correctly, once you, you made it an Apple watch, I think I have that right. I might be
00:28:09 ◼ ► lying to you. Um, where either way, even if I'm wrong, the vision pro app, my understanding is you
00:28:13 ◼ ► absolutely can get that as just a regular, you know, iPhone user. We don't know because it's not in
00:28:18 ◼ ► developer beta one of iOS, but, um, it is that the idea is if you have a vision pro on your account,
00:28:25 ◼ ► the app shows up. If you don't have a vision pro on your account, you can still go to the app store
00:28:30 ◼ ► and download it. And it's, you know, there's a lot of marketing stuff in that app too. So there's a lot
00:28:34 ◼ ► of, isn't this cool? You can dream on your future vision pro from the vision pro app if you want to.
00:28:41 ◼ ► Um, and then, you know, I, I, when, so I wrote a piece, um, a few weeks ago about the first
00:28:46 ◼ ► anniversary of vision pro. And I wanted to make the point that even though we complain about,
00:28:52 ◼ ► especially like how slow they've been to roll out immersive video stuff, and it's really been a
00:28:56 ◼ ► surprise. What's also been a surprise and a good surprise is Apple has not stopped updating and
00:29:08 ◼ ► spatial personas is a great example that Mac virtual display getting improved. These are major
00:29:14 ◼ ► things that make the vision pro much, much better at what it does. And they, they have been rolling
00:29:20 ◼ ► those out over the course of the last year. Well, here's one that was a complaint that we had from day
00:29:26 ◼ ► one about vision pro, which is that guest mode was bad, right? Yep. And they've already improved guest
00:29:32 ◼ ► mode a little bit because it'll remember your most recent guest settings, which is nice. But this new,
00:29:38 ◼ ► uh, 2.4 is going to have an improved guest mode where you can, uh, on your iPhone, you can approve
00:29:48 ◼ ► what your guest is doing, add apps for your guests to use. And it's got a workflow where you can tap
00:29:55 ◼ ► through and get your airplay automatically. So you can see what they're seeing in the vision pro.
00:30:01 ◼ ► So this is very clearly from feedback for people being frustrated who want to show this to other
00:30:06 ◼ ► people and they can't. Absolutely. And to back up just a half step, the way it works today is on 2.3
00:30:13 ◼ ► or whatever the current version shipping version is. What I would have to do is I would have to put
00:30:16 ◼ ► the vision pro on. Then I would have to go into control center and say, I would like to do guest
00:30:20 ◼ ► mode. And then it'll ask me, okay, well, what, what apps do you want to permit? Or do you want to
00:30:24 ◼ ► permit all of them? Do you want to turn on airplay, et cetera, et cetera. Then I say, okay, go. And then
00:30:28 ◼ ► I take the vision pro off. And then the next person has five minutes to put it on and start the, the,
00:30:34 ◼ ► start the, um, like, uh, eye tracking calibration process, which I get, I mean, there's nothing
00:30:38 ◼ ► inherently wrong with that, but, but what Jason just said, and it's important to see the difference
00:30:42 ◼ ► is that in this new world, you know, let's say Aaron wanted to try the vision pro on or do something
00:30:47 ◼ ► in the vision pro. She just puts it on her head. And then, and then the, my phone will say,
00:30:52 ◼ ► Oh, hold on somebody. That's not you. Just put the vision pro on. It's not even in the app. It's
00:30:56 ◼ ► actually like one of these things like continuity camera or something like that, where it, where it
00:30:59 ◼ ► like slides up and says, Hey, vision pro is in guest mode. What do you want to do? And then you go
00:31:05 ◼ ► through and give it, uh, you know, your authority, which is so much better than having to put the
00:31:10 ◼ ► thing on, put the helmet on yourself and then hand the helmet to a friend, right? Like much better,
00:31:14 ◼ ► so much better. Now we haven't tried this because again, correct. Although I installed betas on my
00:31:20 ◼ ► phone days before going on vacation, uh, it's none of it is there. I actually don't know if the guest
00:31:27 ◼ ► mode is there. I haven't tried that one yet, but the, uh, the other stuff isn't there yet, but,
00:31:30 ◼ ► but it will get there eventually. Um, and, and then also having it be any, I mean, you can get
00:31:37 ◼ ► a view into what they're watching, but like to have it be a kind of grease the skids for getting,
00:31:43 ◼ ► uh, air plate up and running so that you can just see what they're seeing on your iPhone is great as
00:31:48 ◼ ► well. So, uh, I think, or iPad, I think most of this stuff is iPhone or iPad. Yeah. I mean, I've,
00:31:54 ◼ ► I've done a guest mode like, you know, months ago I did guest mode where I had the vision pro,
00:32:00 ◼ ► um, mirroring to a TV in the living room and that, that, that worked. And it's nice to have
00:32:05 ◼ ► like a more group experience. This was like in February of last year when everyone was trying
00:32:08 ◼ ► it for the first time and everyone else wants to see what the person in the vision pro is doing,
00:32:11 ◼ ► et cetera, et cetera. So, um, and that is great. The one, the one crutch or crux or issue with this,
00:32:16 ◼ ► with the, which the chat room is talking about is that DRM stuff is, is hidden. And I have every
00:32:23 ◼ ► reason to believe it will remain because it's airplay. It strips anything that's protected content gets
00:32:28 ◼ ► pulled out of airplay. That's just in screenshots, which is, which is annoying to begin with, but I
00:32:33 ◼ ► get, but the real crummy thing is if you're trying to like talk a person through a demo, like, Hey,
00:32:39 ◼ ► I want you to go do the dinosaur experience. And then I want you to go watch a little something in
00:32:43 ◼ ► Disney plus. And then I want you to go do something else. The problem is not only is that blacked out
00:32:48 ◼ ► when you're looking at the airplay version, it's actually blacked out. If I recall correctly in
00:32:53 ◼ ► the vision pro itself, which is inferior. I'm pretty sure that's true. That's not great. And so,
00:32:59 ◼ ► and so this would be one thing if I just can't follow along watching somebody watch Avengers in
00:33:03 ◼ ► 3d fine. No, no worries, but it's, everything is black. And when it, with an immersive experience,
00:33:08 ◼ ► I think literally you're just staring into empty into the void because it's just all black.
00:33:12 ◼ ► Yeah. I, I sent you a screenshot cause I was actually using call sheet in vision pro last
00:33:16 ◼ ► week. And the moment that I took the screenshot, the movie I was watching with call sheet to the
00:33:25 ◼ ► movie. And I thought, Oh no. And I sent you the screenshot. And I was like, look at me watching
00:33:29 ◼ ► a black rectangle with call sheet there. Which I mean, again, I get that 100%, particularly
00:33:36 ◼ ► from the airplay perspective, but I wish there could be some middle of the road where what's
00:33:41 ◼ ► reflected in airplay is black, you know, that that's fair, but whatever seen within the
00:33:45 ◼ ► goggles, within the vision pro them itself, that was still, you know, this regular full
00:33:52 ◼ ► Yeah. Well, uh, good to see more vision pro updates on the way, right. That by, by the time
00:33:57 ◼ ► we get to WWDC vision pro will already be up there with the iPhone, the iPad and the Mac in
00:34:04 ◼ ► terms of supporting Apple intelligence. And that's, that's good. Cause that was not a given.
00:34:09 ◼ ► Um, so definitely not. It's a nice, nice to see them. They are continuing to move ahead
00:34:13 ◼ ► and address some of the big issues. You know, I have a very quick question for you related
00:34:20 ◼ ► pro? Does it have eight gigs or whatever the magical minimum is for Apple intelligence?
00:34:23 ◼ ► I don't know. It obviously has enough to do Apple intelligence cause it does it, but I don't
00:34:29 ◼ ► know if they've disclosed that off the top of my head. I don't know. Uh, but it's a, it's
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00:36:11 ◼ ► Let's lawyer up clunk clunk. Thank you. I appreciate that. Apple is turning off advanced data protection in
00:36:19 ◼ ► the UK. I would just say as foretold in a previous episode of upgrade. Um, we're not saying it's good,
00:36:26 ◼ ► but we're saying we saw it coming. This is of course due to changes in UK laws that demand access
00:36:33 ◼ ► to end-to-end encrypted data. And so they said, Apple, you got to give us a way to access it. And,
00:36:39 ◼ ► and what Apple did was not do what the UK government seemed to be asking, which is create a system with a
00:36:45 ◼ ► back door. Instead, they said, we're going to turn off ADP advanced data protection. We're going to
00:36:51 ◼ ► turn it off in the UK. And, and when they made that announcement, before they made that announcement,
00:36:56 ◼ ► they had actually changed the software configuration on Apple devices. So you couldn't turn it on if you
00:37:01 ◼ ► were in the UK. And, uh, so that's the case. Now you can't turn it on. If you're in the UK,
00:37:05 ◼ ► if you do have it on, they, Apple says they will have to disable it in the near future. Apple actually
00:37:15 ◼ ► advanced data protection. But I've seen lots of speculation about this. It seems like the most
00:37:20 ◼ ► logical thing will be that at some point access to cloud services will probably get cut off if you
00:37:26 ◼ ► keep it on right. In order for Apple to remain within the letter of the law, they'll be like your
00:37:32 ◼ ► iCloud, um, will not update anymore. They haven't said any of this, but that's, I think, reasonable
00:37:38 ◼ ► speculation that that will be the stick. I thought they did. I thought they did say that. I don't
00:37:42 ◼ ► know if I'll be able to cite my source quickly while we're recording, but I could swear that they did say
00:37:46 ◼ ► at some point it will, you will lose iCloud access if you don't turn it off. I mean, what I've seen is
00:37:52 ◼ ► that you will have to disable it and we will provide future guidance, but it's logical that that's what
00:37:56 ◼ ► will happen is that the stuff that is covered by ADP will stop working until you turn it off if
00:38:02 ◼ ► you're in the UK. Right. Again, check my math on that. I can't cite a source off the top of my head,
00:38:08 ◼ ► but I'm pretty sure it's common sense is the source regardless of whether Apple said it or not. I think
00:38:12 ◼ ► it's clear. Now I want to, I want to be clear about what ADP does because Apple has a bunch of different
00:38:16 ◼ ► products that do sort of similar things here. There's ADP, um, there's lockdown mode, which is
00:38:21 ◼ ► different. ADP, the whole point of it is there was a, a selection of Apple services that Apple held
00:38:27 ◼ ► a key to, which meant that Apple could, uh, well, first off, Apple could respond to your help from
00:38:33 ◼ ► you where you're like, Oh no, I lost my password and now I'm locked out of all my stuff. And Apple's
00:38:38 ◼ ► like, ah, that's okay. We have a key for that. So we can go through a password reset system,
00:38:43 ◼ ► ID reset, you know, flow, and we can get you back into your account. Um, but also it allows Apple to
00:38:50 ◼ ► respond to legal requests from law enforcement to unlock the contents that you've got on their servers
00:38:57 ◼ ► and let law enforcement look at them. Um, so what ADP did was take a bunch of those services and create a
00:39:09 ◼ ► new version where Apple doesn't hold the key, which means that if you lose your access, if you lose your
00:39:17 ◼ ► login or one of the other, you know, a device that's got access to a key that will unlock it, which does
00:39:23 ◼ ► include, it's not just your devices and it's not just like your Apple ID. It can be a device password.
00:39:28 ◼ ► And actually, if you have a, uh, if you have a backup, uh, contact, I forget, is it the legacy
00:39:33 ◼ ► contact? I forget that you can, you can basically give a friend and say, you can unlock in an emergency.
00:39:39 ◼ ► You can unlock my Apple ID. Um, they can do that, but Apple doesn't have a key and those services are
00:39:45 ◼ ► free form wallet passes, voice memos, Siri shortcuts, Safari bookmarks, reminders that aren't
00:39:52 ◼ ► on a Cal dev server reminders to iCloud. Basically notes, photos, iCloud drive, and most importantly,
00:39:59 ◼ ► iCloud backup because iCloud backup includes device backup and messages backup. So this is the famous
00:40:08 ◼ ► San Bernardino example, for example, uh, for instance, and there are others like this where you're like,
00:40:14 ◼ ► Oh, it's all encrypted. All their messages are encrypted. Their devices are encrypted. But if you've got
00:40:20 ◼ ► Apple's key to iCloud backup, you've got their device backups and their messages backup and Apple can
00:40:27 ◼ ► decrypt the backups, even if the stuff that's on the, on the cloud server is end-to-end encrypted.
00:40:33 ◼ ► So it's this specific set that, um, that is covered by ADP and Apple introduced this while it was feeling
00:40:41 ◼ ► pressure, right? From governments about like snooping. I feel like they built this feature to basically say,
00:40:47 ◼ ► look, now we, now we don't even have the key. You just go away and don't come to us. And what the UK
00:40:52 ◼ ► government has done and said, actually legally now you can't not have the key and therefore they're
00:40:58 ◼ ► going to turn ADP off. Yeah. I mean, it makes sense. And it's a bummer that this is happening. Like I,
00:41:04 ◼ ► I find it very frustrating that the UK has decided that not only do they get the data of their citizens,
00:41:12 ◼ ► which in and of itself is kind of gross, but given Mike's not here to defend himself, uh, given that
00:41:18 ◼ ► the UK loves themselves a security camera and loves to watch on their citizens. Um, I'm not entirely
00:41:24 ◼ ► surprised that they wanted this, but the thing that really grinds my gears about it is that the way the
00:41:28 ◼ ► law is written. Well, two things. First of all, the way the law is written is that they can get
00:41:32 ◼ ► access to any user worldwide, which no, right. I don't love that. I don't love that at all.
00:41:38 ◼ ► And, um, and secondly, Apple isn't allowed to say anything about it, which is also really gross.
00:41:45 ◼ ► Like I kind of understand where they're coming from on that one, but I find that very, very gross.
00:41:49 ◼ ► And so yeah, country that loves to surveil their citizens wants to be able to surveil their citizens
00:41:56 ◼ ► news at 11, like in and of itself, this is not that surprising, but the fact that they try to reach
00:42:00 ◼ ► into other countries citizens, I find really an, a dramatic and gross overstepping of what is really
00:42:07 ◼ ► agreeable and acceptable. And that's one part of this story that we'll have to play out, right?
00:42:12 ◼ ► Because what Apple didn't do is turn off ADP for everyone in the world. And so there's a, there's
00:42:17 ◼ ► a scenario here where the UK government basically comes to Apple and says, you need to, I mean,
00:42:23 ◼ ► first of all, they could come to Apple and say, this isn't what we asked for. Um, which would,
00:42:27 ◼ ► even though it effectively is, it isn't exactly what they asked for, but they could also say,
00:42:31 ◼ ► no, I want to get that guy in Singapore. You know, I want to get that person in the, in Saudi Arabia.
00:42:40 ◼ ► I want their data and they're not in my country and they haven't been in my country, but it doesn't
00:42:46 ◼ ► matter. We have reasons to get their data, give us their data. And if they have ADP on and they go to
00:42:54 ◼ ► Apple, what happens then? Because Apple would be in violation of this law. And I think that, you know,
00:43:00 ◼ ► I don't know enough about, um, international treaties and, you know, but it is, and the
00:43:08 ◼ ► question is, would they push it that far? Or is this enough? Cause they're basically, Apple is
00:43:12 ◼ ► basically just reverting off of a feature. This is not new. I, there are a lot of, um, I would say
00:43:19 ◼ ► mostly from people who make a living making people upset and frightened. That's just my take on it. I think
00:43:24 ◼ ► there are a lot of people out there who really make a living frightening people. That's what they
00:43:28 ◼ ► do. Uh, who, who say, Oh, Apple has completely caved into the UK and this is terrible. Um, but the truth
00:43:35 ◼ ► is, um, this is actually Apple reverting to the previous system where this stuff is, you know, the key
00:43:45 ◼ ► is held and that's not great, but it's not Apple building a whole new system to hand all your data to
00:43:51 ◼ ► the UK. It's literally the, uh, if the metaphor is like the back, this is not the back door, it's the
00:43:56 ◼ ► front door, which is what I think Tim Sweeney said. It's like the, the house never had a door. And a
00:44:01 ◼ ► couple of years ago when people were sniffing around the front door, Apple built a door. And then one of
00:44:07 ◼ ► those people, this metaphor is getting out of hand said, no, actually, if this house is in the UK, you
00:44:12 ◼ ► need to leave that door open. But the door was, there was never a door before that. That's the point
00:44:17 ◼ ► here. So it's not great. I want to read Apple's part of Apple's statement that they released,
00:44:21 ◼ ► because I think this is an interesting choice that they made. They said, we are gravely disappointed
00:44:25 ◼ ► that the protections provided by ADP will not be available to our customers in the UK given the
00:44:30 ◼ ► continuing rise of data breaches and other threats to customer privacy. As we have said many times
00:44:34 ◼ ► before, we have never built a back door or master key to any of our products or services. And we never
00:44:40 ◼ ► will. Now they don't mention the UK law in particular because legally they're not allowed to.
00:44:46 ◼ ► That's not great. I don't love that. But I do. That last sentence is really interesting,
00:44:52 ◼ ► right? Because that's Apple putting a stake in the ground saying, no master keys. We're not going to
00:44:57 ◼ ► make a master key for you. And, you know, first off, great. And secondly, if they stop saying that,
00:45:04 ◼ ► pay attention, right? Like if they stop saying, oh no, no master keys, that means something very bad has
00:45:11 ◼ ► happened. Yep. It's a heck of a canary for sure. And what's also interesting about this is
00:45:16 ◼ ► the implication there, or at least the way I read it is that, okay, your move. And if the UK compels
00:45:24 ◼ ► them to build a back door or master key or what have you, this is Apple pretty much saying, we're going
00:45:30 ◼ ► to leave the UK, or at least that's how I read it, which I can, I find it hard to imagine that they
00:45:35 ◼ ► would actually get to that point. But this is one of the only things that I think Apple might
00:45:41 ◼ ► actually grow a backbone and put their heels in the sand and say, nope, I'm sorry. We're not going to do
00:45:46 ◼ ► it. I think this is an interesting game that the UK government is playing because obviously, and this
00:45:52 ◼ ► is the weird thing about talking about Apple these days, right? One of the weird things about it, I know
00:45:56 ◼ ► Mike and I have talked about it a lot. I know you've talked about it on ATP. Like Apple's the,
00:46:01 ◼ ► Apple's bigger than lots of countries at this point. And, and so the, the balance of power is
00:46:09 ◼ ► interesting. Like the UK government obviously has a culture, as you mentioned, it's a culture of
00:46:16 ◼ ► surveillance and we're protecting you by watching everywhere and all of that in some ways that some
00:46:21 ◼ ► of the laws in the US, as long as they're being enforced anyway, are, are, are opposed to.
00:46:26 ◼ ► Um, but this is one of those cases where I do wonder about the politics of it because it is
00:46:33 ◼ ► politics, right? The, if the UK government, if somebody in the UK law enforcement says, you know,
00:46:40 ◼ ► we're going to push Apple on this and we're going to demand something and we're going to hold them in
00:46:43 ◼ ► violation of this and all of that. At some point, if you're a politician who is in charge of those
00:46:50 ◼ ► people, if you're Keir Starmer or one of the people in his cabinet in the UK government,
00:46:54 ◼ ► and you consider the risk that what Apple's going to do is say, put out a press release that doesn't
00:47:02 ◼ ► explain why, but says Apple to cease operation in the United Kingdom, Apple to lay off all of the
00:47:08 ◼ ► thousands of people. This is similar to the inverse of a story we're going to talk about a little bit
00:47:11 ◼ ► later. Apple to remove billions of pounds of investment from the UK, relocate jobs out of the
00:47:17 ◼ ► UK, uh, and, and say, we can't tell you why, but we deeply regret and we'll miss the UK, but we can't be
00:47:24 ◼ ► there anymore. Like that's what Apple has over the UK government. And I got to say, like, we can't pretend that
00:47:32 ◼ ► that wouldn't matter, right? Like if you're Keir Starmer, do you want that? Because there's somebody
00:47:39 ◼ ► down in your law enforcement or intelligence group somewhere who has gravely overreached with their
00:47:46 ◼ ► demands of Apple. And personally, I don't think he can make that choice. I don't think a politician
00:47:54 ◼ ► is going to tell the people in this country that one of the major tech companies in the world is going to
00:48:01 ◼ ► pull all of its sales and all of its jobs out of your country because somebody says, well, it'd be
00:48:08 ◼ ► easier for us if we could tell them to unlock this guy's phone in Saudi Arabia, right? I don't, I don't
00:48:15 ◼ ► actually believe that that's a winning and that's bizarre, right? First, right. It's bizarre that Apple
00:48:19 ◼ ► could like overpower people inside the UK government, but I think that's where we are. Honestly, I do think
00:48:25 ◼ ► that that would be a really bad moment for the UK government if they pushed them that far.
00:48:31 ◼ ► I couldn't agree more. And, you know, we're not really in a position to throw stones given that we barely
00:48:38 ◼ ► I like to talk about other governments, you know, Casey right now, I like to talk about them.
00:48:42 ◼ ► Anyone but us, good grief. But, um, but no, I think this feels to me like the UK vastly overplaying their
00:48:51 ◼ ► hand because I really do believe that for all of Apple's many faults these days, particularly in the
00:48:57 ◼ ► last several months, I really think, like I said a minute ago, that they will stick to their guns on
00:49:03 ◼ ► this. I really do believe it. And I think it would be ruinous for both, um, ruinous, maybe a
00:49:09 ◼ ► little bit dramatic for an entire government, but go with what I'm the vibe of what I'm trying to say
00:49:13 ◼ ► here, that it would be ruinous for the UK to actually compel them to do this. And I think that
00:49:18 ◼ ► Apple would at the very least, you know, start pulling out features or, or perhaps entire products
00:49:23 ◼ ► or stop selling products in the UK. And I think Apple is of the belief that if they really do play this
00:49:29 ◼ ► game of chicken and if the, if the UK really doesn't flinch first. And so Apple has to say,
00:49:34 ◼ ► okay, we're pulling out, you know, that beautiful thing at Battersea, which I haven't seen, but I've
00:49:38 ◼ ► understood to be just phenomenally pretty that office of Battersea and all of those jobs, as you mentioned,
00:49:43 ◼ ► I really do think Apple would start to say, okay, we're going to wind all this down unless you guys,
00:49:49 ◼ ► you know, find you folks find a solution that's, that's more agreeable. And I don't see the UK
00:49:55 ◼ ► winning that game of chicken. I really don't. And as a potentially former world leader, as a resident
00:50:01 ◼ ► of a potentially former world leader at this point, uh, I think that the UK is playing this hand as
00:50:06 ◼ ► though they still own half the planet and they don't. And so I don't think this is going to end
00:50:11 ◼ ► well for the UK. If they, if they decide to stick their heels in a very reasonable approach to this
00:50:21 ◼ ► That's the real politic here, right? Is declare victory. This is, this is the truth. As I, as I
00:50:26 ◼ ► get older, I realized that a lot of this is in politics is about the appearance of success
00:50:32 ◼ ► more than it is success. So with a hundred percent, with this, if they want to, the UK government can
00:50:39 ◼ ► declare victory. They made one of the tech giants change their policy because of them and move on
00:50:48 ◼ ► without pushing it because they know that if they push it much further, it could actually go
00:50:53 ◼ ► sour on them. Now, not to say they won't try it. They could try it, but, but I feel like there's a lot
00:50:58 ◼ ► of this, and this is actually, I think true for a lot of stuff happening in the U S right now that we'll
00:51:02 ◼ ► get to, uh, and, and stuff we will not get to, but there's a lot of that aspect, which is, you know,
00:51:07 ◼ ► sometimes it's not about doing the thing. It's about saying, you're going to do the thing,
00:51:12 ◼ ► declaring victory and then not talking about it ever again and moving on because you get to just
00:51:17 ◼ ► the, the, and I know that this is kind of cynical, but there is some truth to the fact that if you're
00:51:21 ◼ ► a politician and you can say, yep, check that box moving on, nobody goes back and says, wait,
00:51:27 ◼ ► that I, in fact, I'll get to this a little bit later too. There's a related story about this.
00:51:32 ◼ ► Nobody goes back and says, wait, you check that box, but then nothing happened. It's like,
00:51:35 ◼ ► I don't know. I checked the box. What do you mean? Let's move on. Uh, so there's some of that.
00:51:40 ◼ ► I have one more lawyer up item I want to get to really quickly and it's silly, but it's fun,
00:51:45 ◼ ► which is, um, remember Casey, you remember when, uh, they did that thing where, uh, the porn app went
00:51:53 ◼ ► on alt store pal, the alternative app store in the, the EU. And they said, it's the first porn app
00:51:58 ◼ ► approved by Apple. And Apple got very angry, very angry because Apple was so angry. I mean,
00:52:04 ◼ ► they were going to scold that porn app regardless, but like, uh, alt store just amped it up a little
00:52:09 ◼ ► bit by saying Apple approved, Apple approved. Apple's like, we do not approve of this app.
00:52:13 ◼ ► And he's like, I didn't say you approved of it. I said, you approved it. Well, good news,
00:52:19 ◼ ► everybody, because Riley tested of alt store has posted that Apple has changed their form email
00:52:27 ◼ ► for approval slash, uh, what is it? Uh, approval slash readiness for apps that have been notarized
00:52:35 ◼ ► for use in the EU. It used to say the following app has been approved for your distribution.
00:52:44 ◼ ► It's so petty. It's so petty. Honestly, it's petty on every side. And it makes me so happy because
00:52:53 ◼ ► ultimately it's such a silly thing. And it's one of those, like, you know, Michael Jackson eating
00:52:56 ◼ ► popcorn gifts, you know what I'm saying? It's just like, there's no real stakes here. Everyone will be
00:53:01 ◼ ► fine, but it's just so funny. And it's, you know, as Merlin says, a lot of times, you know,
00:53:05 ◼ ► words have meaning. And even though I think Riley took a little bit of creative license, like strictly
00:53:11 ◼ ► speaking, what, what was said was true that, you know, Apple approved it. Yes. But nevertheless,
00:53:16 ◼ ► it is funny to me how quickly a company as big as Apple can move when they have a little bit of egg on
00:53:22 ◼ ► their faces. I like, I like to think that somebody, it went down a large chain of managers to whoever is in
00:53:29 ◼ ► charge of the email templates for developers. Like, who's that person? And they're like,
00:53:35 ◼ ► which intern is that? Right. Yeah. Who's got to do the email templates. Anyway, that's okay. Now things
00:53:40 ◼ ► are not, they're no longer approved. Future porn apps in, in alternative app stores will merely be
00:53:47 ◼ ► ready. So didn't that solve a problem? Um, okay. I, I've, I've promoted this twice. So I'm going to
00:53:54 ◼ ► just jump to it now, which is, uh, uh, not we're leaving lawyer up sort of, but we're still in kind
00:54:00 ◼ ► of a political sphere, which is, um, on Monday as right before we record this, Apple put out a newsroom
00:54:06 ◼ ► post. Uh, so basically a press release, uh, saying that it's investing $500 billion in the USA,
00:54:13 ◼ ► USA, USA, USA. Oh God. I can't even say that. I know, I know, I know. Apple today announced its
00:54:20 ◼ ► largest ever spend commitment. That is a bad phrase and you should feel bad for writing it
00:54:25 ◼ ► with plans to spend and invest more than $500 billion in the U S over the next four years.
00:54:30 ◼ ► What an interesting increment of time. Yep. Um, Apple and partners will open a new advanced
00:54:36 ◼ ► manufacturing facility in Houston to build servers for private cloud compute and Apple will also double
00:54:41 ◼ ► its U S advanced manufacturing fund, create an academy in Michigan to train the next generation
00:54:46 ◼ ► of U S manufacturers and grow its research and development investments in the U S to support
00:54:50 ◼ ► cutting edge fields like Silicon engineering. It's really weird reading stuff like this in front
00:54:55 ◼ ► of you, Casey, cause you are the one who reads this stuff on ATP. It's strange. And, and it talks
00:55:02 ◼ ► about how it look, here's the thing about this. This isn't new. And a lot of people I predict,
00:55:07 ◼ ► cause it just came out, are going to point to this and they see, see, see what Apple's doing with, uh,
00:55:11 ◼ ► Trump administration. See Apple's been doing this for a while now, folks. Apple has been talking
00:55:15 ◼ ► about how many jobs it creates and listing a bunch of States where Apple has business prominently like,
00:55:20 ◼ ► Oh, we're in Texas and Oregon and, and, and, uh, and California and Utah and New York and North
00:55:26 ◼ ► Carolina and all these things. This is entirely precedented. Uh, it, it at least started in 2018,
00:55:33 ◼ ► which yes, was the first Trump administration and, and they announced the $5 billion advanced
00:55:40 ◼ ► manufacturing fund. It came right after they repatriated a bunch of money back from overseas
00:55:44 ◼ ► due to tax breaks that they got to bring it back into the U S if you remember back then they announced
00:55:49 ◼ ► what is now their Austin campus. But I will say this is, this is a political game. Apple has been
00:55:55 ◼ ► playing since then, including during the Biden administration, because in 2021, they did this
00:56:01 ◼ ► and put out a press release with a whole bunch of stuff, including $430 billion in U S investments
00:56:06 ◼ ► and another new campus in North Carolina. Now video editor of the show, Chip Sutterth has been sending me
00:56:13 ◼ ► these links for a while now that remember the thing about checking the box and then nobody checks what
00:56:19 ◼ ► happened to the box after it was checked that North Carolina hub three years later is basically
00:56:27 ◼ ► on hold. And Apple has not talked about whether they will actually build it or not. And they talked
00:56:32 ◼ ► about investment in, in Raleigh, Durham area schools and all this stuff. And it's like, it's unclear
00:56:37 ◼ ► what's going on there, but just to be just as a note, it's not something that I've really brought up
00:56:42 ◼ ► on the show, but I just want to point out, like sometimes these things get promised. And then there's a
00:56:46 ◼ ► question about if they ever get delivered, but they get promised. And, and so I I'm curious how
00:56:52 ◼ ► you feel about this Casey, but I look at this and I say, this is modern Apple doing what it feels is now
00:57:01 ◼ ► from, you know, in the last eight or 10 years, necessary relationship maintenance with the U S
00:57:08 ◼ ► government to point out how much it loves the United States, even though it does things in other
00:57:13 ◼ ► countries. It puts a lot of money into the United States. It's got campuses and it's, it's a little
00:57:18 ◼ ► bit like how they spread everything in the Apollo program over all 50 States. It's like, look how many
00:57:23 ◼ ► States we're in. We impact all of these jobs in all of these States. And it is in some ways, the inverse
00:57:29 ◼ ► of what I described about the UK stuff. It's, it's Apple saying, look how much money we put into the U S
00:57:35 ◼ ► and how many jobs we put into the U S and doesn't that mean that you American government, like, like us,
00:57:41 ◼ ► a great American company. And, uh, I, I could argue that investing in America for a big American company
00:57:48 ◼ ► is not, is not bad. In fact, it's good. Um, the fact that they have decided to make it a press release
00:57:55 ◼ ► item every few years does suggest that they feel they have to do this in order to please anybody
00:58:02 ◼ ► with power in Washington. Yeah. You know, for me, I'm just happy that at least this grift is happening
00:58:09 ◼ ► in the traditional way rather than in the slimy way of, you know, of the former Trump administration
00:58:16 ◼ ► and this Trump administration. Uh, no, I kid slightly, but I mean, I think I, you know, I'm going to have to
00:58:21 ◼ ► read all those letters now, Casey. So thank you for sending them. You're welcome. You're welcome.
00:58:25 ◼ ► Yeah. Uh, no, you can send them to me. It's fine. Um, but no, I, I think this, this feels particularly
00:58:32 ◼ ► gross to me right now because it's not my team. That's that's on the field, if you will. And so
00:58:38 ◼ ► I'm more sensitive because you know, when it, when, when it was my team, it was like, oh yeah, you know,
00:58:44 ◼ ► they're just go America. Right. Why, why not? But now it's like, oh, this feels gross for years.
00:58:48 ◼ ► That's awfully conspicuous as you said earlier. Um, but ultimately what I'm trying, what I've been
00:58:54 ◼ ► wrestling with a lot lately, and we've talked about this on ATP, you guys have talked about it quite a
00:58:57 ◼ ► bit here on upgrade. Um, I, I think my view, my mental model of Apple is very different than the
00:59:07 ◼ ► reality of Apple. And I think that's always been true, but it's been particularly stark to me anyway,
00:59:12 ◼ ► very recently as it seems like Apple in some or Apple as a whole. And sometimes Tim individually
00:59:18 ◼ ► is, you know, getting on one knee and kissing the ring and doing a lot of things that I find
00:59:24 ◼ ► in, in, in contrast to what I think Apple stands for. It would be like if Apple said to the UK,
00:59:31 ◼ ► oh yeah, you're right. Let's put that back door in. Totally. I would find that super gross in this.
00:59:36 ◼ ► it's not apples to apples, but it feels similarly gross. Now I'm glad that you, you went back and
00:59:42 ◼ ► looked at how this has been for the last almost 10 years, because that makes me feel a lot better
00:59:47 ◼ ► about it. And, and what I think this is, and I think you said this a moment ago is this is Apple
00:59:52 ◼ ► maintaining their relationship with the U S government. And I think it's a little grosser at sometimes than
00:59:58 ◼ ► others, both irrespective of what team you're on or whatever the case may be. But it seems that Apple
01:00:04 ◼ ► being as big as they are. And you mentioned earlier, you know, as big as bigger than a lot of countries,
01:00:09 ◼ ► they have to play politics and Tim has to play politics. And even though I find a lot of their
01:00:17 ◼ ► actions, particularly of late to be pretty gross, ultimately at the end of the day, it is Tim's job
01:00:25 ◼ ► and Apple's job to continue it to exist in whatever climate they happen to find themselves in and
01:00:30 ◼ ► hopefully push forward and push for what they think is right. And what they think is best for example,
01:00:36 ◼ ► you know, going carbon neutral and things in, in products where they can, but ultimately it's,
01:00:41 ◼ ► it's their, it's not their job to change governments. It's their job to do whatever they need
01:00:47 ◼ ► to, to work within the government of the day. And intellectually, I get that, but my heart that
01:00:53 ◼ ► kind of hurts at the moment. And I know that that's unfair, but that's just kind of how it feels.
01:00:57 ◼ ► Yeah. I think this is the truth. And the reason that I mentioned that it's happened multiple times
01:01:01 ◼ ► before is that I do think that this is more about, it's less about who is president and more about the
01:01:08 ◼ ► scrutiny that, that tech companies now undergo. Like there was an era where American tech companies
01:01:15 ◼ ► standing astride the world and being incredibly powerful was not considered particularly political.
01:01:20 ◼ ► in the U S it was just considered a win hooray U S companies are powerful. And then there was a turn
01:01:25 ◼ ► where it was like, Oh, now we're going to investigate these tech companies. And while Apple has missed a
01:01:30 ◼ ► lot of that drama, it hasn't missed all of it. And I, I keep saying this on this podcast, but it is just
01:01:37 ◼ ► like that dynamic with the, with Keir Starmer, you know, not wanting to tell the citizens of the UK
01:01:55 ◼ ► but they're our enemy and we're going to destroy them. Right? Like it's not really what they would
01:02:00 ◼ ► really want to do is say, yay, USA number one. That's what they want to do. But there, there,
01:02:06 ◼ ► there are increasingly, if not quick, quick pro quotes. And sometimes there are the sense that
01:02:11 ◼ ► Apple needs to put out press releases talking about how many jobs it creates, talking about how much
01:02:16 ◼ ► money it's committing, even if it was already going to open that factory, even if it was already going
01:02:20 ◼ ► to build that campus or, and I think to a certain extent, they, they lean into doing a little more of
01:02:25 ◼ ► that because they know it looks good. And they, the, the cost of not doing it is going to be more
01:02:31 ◼ ► than the, you know, the savings that they would get by putting it in a different country. And so they,
01:02:37 ◼ ► they just, let's just do it. Let's build that, that thing at the, at the triangle in North Carolina.
01:02:42 ◼ ► There's a lot of great college graduates there. It's a great place to have a campus. Let's build
01:02:44 ◼ ► one there maybe eventually sometime. And so that's just sort of regardless of American politics right
01:02:52 ◼ ► now, I think that that is where tech companies are and where Apple and Tim Cook are trying to do this,
01:02:58 ◼ ► which is navigate a way to show their value to not just Donald Trump, but to America and all the
01:03:05 ◼ ► people in power to say, we are a good American company that does things in America for Americans,
01:03:10 ◼ ► even if they were doing most of it already. Uh, it changes the narrative a little bit about,
01:03:15 ◼ ► Oh, all Apple does is outsource everything to China and say, no, no, no, that's not true.
01:03:19 ◼ ► We do so much here in America. And I think a lot of that was true before, but in 2018, what Apple felt
01:03:25 ◼ ► they needed to do was say it out loud, right? To say, we get all our glass from Corning in Kentucky
01:03:30 ◼ ► or wherever. I think it's Kentucky. Um, like they need to, they feel they need to say that cause they
01:03:35 ◼ ► need to say, okay, we're going to show our work about how we're a good American company so that we don't
01:03:39 ◼ ► get regulated and we don't get treated badly. And part of that is cause I know, um, people out there who
01:03:45 ◼ ► have seen this will know that the president of the United States has already posted a thing in all caps on his
01:03:51 ◼ ► social media site, taking full credit while misspelling a word. Um, part of the quid pro quo,
01:03:57 ◼ ► part of the reason you do this is you are allowing whoever is in power to take credit for what you're
01:04:02 ◼ ► doing. And that's part of what this is. And that was true in 2018. It's true in 2021 and it's true
01:04:08 ◼ ► today. You don't have to like it, but I think that, I think that that's, that's what's going on here.
01:04:13 ◼ ► And it's sort of the, the bigger picture of, of we live in an era where Apple is so huge
01:04:18 ◼ ► that it, it, it, and it's under enough scrutiny because its category is under such scrutiny that
01:04:23 ◼ ► it needs to prove to provide enough cover to people in power that they can say, Oh, see, like,
01:04:32 ◼ ► like Donald Trump did today. See Apple is investing in the USA. Isn't that great? And that's like,
01:04:43 ◼ ► a complimentary read of this is, and you, you implied this or kind of sort of said it a second
01:04:47 ◼ ► ago, and you definitely were talking about this a little while ago. A very complimentary read of this
01:04:52 ◼ ► is, well, you know what? This was already in the works anyway. And we didn't know that. And perhaps
01:04:57 ◼ ► they wouldn't have made such a stink about it, but it was already in the works anyway. Who cares?
01:05:01 ◼ ► Let's just get ourselves a win. Let's cozy up with the people in power and say, look at us and look at
01:05:06 ◼ ► all the great things we do for our country. And it, the complimentary read is that the, okay, yeah,
01:05:10 ◼ ► I guess they're making a big, you know, a big festoosh about it for arguably no true real reason,
01:05:16 ◼ ► but all this stuff was art maybe already in the works anyway. And either way, whether or not that's
01:05:22 ◼ ► true or not. Another thing I think that's worth noting is that Apple's under a lot of regulatory
01:05:28 ◼ ► scrutiny in a lot of countries around the world, but including America and granted the political
01:05:34 ◼ ► atmosphere now is a lot different than when this regulatory scrutiny really started to, you know,
01:05:38 ◼ ► take a monocle to them, if you will. But, um, but no, I think it to curry favor with the American
01:05:44 ◼ ► government broadly is a very good idea for Apple. And so if you take my emotions away from it for a
01:05:50 ◼ ► second, and if you take away the fact that I don't, I don't like this from an emotional standpoint,
01:05:54 ◼ ► if you look at the brass tacks from a business standpoint, it is very much an Apple's best interest
01:06:01 ◼ ► and Tim's best interest for the government to like Apple. And so by that metric, Tim and Apple
01:06:07 ◼ ► are doing exactly what they're supposed to be doing, even though I personally find it to be a
01:06:11 ◼ ► little bit gross. I will say, um, I believe this press release would exist even if Kamala Harris was
01:06:17 ◼ ► president because it existed when Joe Biden was president. And I think the reason is the atmosphere
01:06:22 ◼ ► wouldn't be that different in terms of tech under scrutiny. And if, uh, Harris was president and it
01:06:29 ◼ ► was a Republican Congress, maybe, I mean, first off, as we saw with Keir Starmer, who is a member of the
01:06:34 ◼ ► labor party in the UK and, and, and yet they are still pressing this, like the Democrats would also still
01:06:39 ◼ ► be saying, Oh, you know, big tech danger, et cetera, et cetera. They don't want to get, uh, beaten on that
01:06:45 ◼ ► on, on like national security by the Republicans. And then the Republicans in Congress would have their
01:06:49 ◼ ► committees where they're looking at big tech and what is Apple doing and all of that. Like it would be the
01:06:54 ◼ ► case regardless. It's the, it is not necessarily about the specific players. It's about where we
01:07:01 ◼ ► are with big tech and politics and how these big tech companies are reacting to it. But I'm going to
01:07:07 ◼ ► say this again and then we can move on, which is, I think that ultimately there is not enough credit
01:07:14 ◼ ► given to the idea that some of these dominant countries around the world or companies around the world
01:07:19 ◼ ► are American and that as an, and that the U S government is going to give them leeway because
01:07:26 ◼ ► you don't really want Apple, Google, Microsoft, Facebook to be enemies. You want them to be
01:07:33 ◼ ► examples of American reach in the world. Now that may have consequences for those companies elsewhere in
01:07:40 ◼ ► the world. And we've seen that, but I do think that, that it, it just feels unlikely to me that any American
01:07:45 ◼ ► government is going to attempt to destroy one of the great American companies, just like I think
01:07:52 ◼ ► Keir Starmer is going to have a hard time trying to call Apple's bluff about Apple potentially leaving
01:07:58 ◼ ► the UK. I think, and that says something about the power of tech companies, I guess, but you never
01:08:03 ◼ ► know. You never know what politicians might do. You never know. All right. We are going to take
01:08:14 ◼ ► This episode of upgrade is brought to you by Google Gemini. I tried Gemini a couple of days ago,
01:08:22 ◼ ► the Gemini live where you can just talk to it. And it really is wild to have a full on conversation
01:08:28 ◼ ► with this thing. I was messing around and asked it to give me a few ideas for hosting during the
01:08:36 ◼ ► but what about something low key for a smaller group? And then it will adjust to that. So you
01:08:40 ◼ ► could just keep going until you get an idea that you want. I think that's what I would use it for the
01:08:45 ◼ ► most brainstorming things. It's so good. If you don't know where to start or you hit a wall, you just go
01:08:50 ◼ ► to Gemini. It helps you get the ball rolling, but you can use it for all kinds of stuff. If you want to
01:08:55 ◼ ► learn something new, you can have it give you advice, ask it to explain Bitcoin in simple terms, or you
01:09:00 ◼ ► can have it quiz you on microbiology. Imagine being a student and you've got this personal
01:09:05 ◼ ► tutor on hand. It's hard to explain. You really have to play around a bit. See how it listens to
01:09:10 ◼ ► you, responds, adapts to your style of conversation. Just try it out. It's free. Our thanks to Google
01:09:19 ◼ ► Okay. Let's talk about phones now. Casey, how about that? Yes, please. Let's talk about computers and
01:09:26 ◼ ► computer phones. Uh, the, I, the iPhone 16e was announced last week. Um, and, uh, and I, I called
01:09:36 ◼ ► it that it wasn't the SE. I feel good about that. I feel in our, in our paternity draft. I, I got a
01:09:41 ◼ ► couple of points. That was, that makes me feel nice. It's a weird phone, right? I mean, it's got,
01:09:50 ◼ ► about what they said. Likewise. Was worth putting in your SE successor, your low-end phone. What
01:09:57 ◼ ► features it's worth putting in and what features it's not. So like the hit list is it's got an
01:10:02 ◼ ► action button. It's got an OLED screen with face ID and the notch. So it's basically like the iPhone
01:10:06 ◼ ► 10 screen, which was seven years ago. It's got a ceramic shield on the glass, but they make a point
01:10:12 ◼ ► of saying it's not the new ceramic shield that's on the latest models. It's the previous generation
01:10:16 ◼ ► ceramic shield. So it's not as shieldy as it was. It's got USB-C instead of lightning. It's got Apple
01:10:22 ◼ ► intelligence and an A18 processor. That's all great. What it doesn't have is it doesn't have the new
01:10:26 ◼ ► photographic styles. It doesn't have MagSafe. It doesn't have colors. It comes in black and white.
01:10:30 ◼ ► Uh, it doesn't have millimeter wave, doesn't have ultra wide band. Um, curious, right? Like it's,
01:10:35 ◼ ► it's just fascinating to see. I'm sure there is a very specific manufacturing reason why all of these
01:10:42 ◼ ► choices were made, but I am fascinated about what gets left out and what gets put in a phone like
01:10:48 ◼ ► this. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. We spoke about this on ATP last week because in a very rare, uh,
01:10:53 ◼ ► lucky break for us, it was announced on a Wednesday before we recorded. And at the time I didn't have a
01:10:58 ◼ ► lot of, uh, I didn't have a lot that I'd read about it. I didn't have a lot of time to think about it.
01:11:02 ◼ ► And now that I've had a little bit of time to process, I, and, and hear some input from others,
01:11:08 ◼ ► the things that make the most sense to me are, I think a combination of two things. Um, a lot of
01:11:14 ◼ ► people have spoken about and written to ATP and potentially to upgrade as well to say, look,
01:11:20 ◼ ► this isn't the, yeah, on the surface, this is a consumer phone, but this isn't really a consumer
01:11:25 ◼ ► phone. What this is, is a bulk purchase phone. So as an example, uh, here in Richmond, Virginia,
01:11:32 ◼ ► a capital one is one of the largest employers. They're a large credit card company. Um, in fact,
01:11:37 ◼ ► they're merging with discover card as we speak, as far as I know, um, really big, really, really big
01:11:43 ◼ ► bank effectively. And most of their employer employees, excuse me, get issued phones. And I
01:11:49 ◼ ► think most of them get issued iPhones. And so I bring this up to say, I could imagine a place like
01:11:54 ◼ ► capital one buying hundreds, thousands of iPhone 16 ease or 16 E as, uh, connected, called it that
01:12:02 ◼ ► was 16. Uh, anyways, I could see them buying, you know, hundreds or thousands of these. And if you're
01:12:08 ◼ ► buying this as a corporate device, do you really care if there's MagSafe? Do you really, does the
01:12:13 ◼ ► colors are need to be, need to approve a corporate device? Do you care if you don't have millimeter
01:12:18 ◼ ► wave? Does anyone care other than me? If they don't have millimeter wave, I can make an argument
01:12:27 ◼ ► if you look at it through that lens, and I don't know if this is true or not, this is just a guess.
01:12:31 ◼ ► If you know, you could even say that it's a 16 enterprise edition. Um, again, that that's not
01:12:37 ◼ ► factual, but you could squint and you could see how that could be the case. And the other thing is you
01:12:42 ◼ ► got to remove a bunch of stuff in order to hit a particular price point. And, uh, as we record,
01:12:47 ◼ ► it was earlier today that Ben Thompson at Stratechery put up a post about the 16 E and what
01:12:53 ◼ ► his, and what his point was among other things was look, phones have effectively gotten cheaper
01:12:59 ◼ ► because they've stayed the same price. And I always forget that, that everything in life has so much
01:13:05 ◼ ► more expensive now, but except iPhones. Now this one is a, is like, well, what is it? 130 bucks or
01:13:10 ◼ ► 170 bucks more than the 40% more in actual dollars. Uh, like today's dollars from the one that was for
01:13:16 ◼ ► sale yesterday, but not right. Cause it's 599 instead of 429. But, um, but yes, Ben did the
01:13:23 ◼ ► calculations and it's true. Like if you look at the March over time of buying power and inflation and
01:13:29 ◼ ► all of that, right. It's still, I mean, this is the thing is I'm sure he went into it thinking it's
01:13:33 ◼ ► actually not more expensive. And what he found was, no, it's, it's still more expensive. This is that
01:13:38 ◼ ► thing, right? Casey, where you want the black and white clarity, like the iPhone 16 E, you want it in
01:13:42 ◼ ► black and white. Uh, but, but it's actually in shades of gray, like an iPhone 16 pro. So sorry,
01:13:49 ◼ ► I'm not that I'm bitter about it, but, um, it's, it's complicated, right? Like it's, it is more
01:13:56 ◼ ► expensive, but it's not hugely more expensive. And, and Ben says like, and also like, if the idea was
01:14:04 ◼ ► that the cheap phone really helped Apple in emerging markets, it's not really like that clear that it has
01:14:10 ◼ ► very much. So it is, it's complicated, right? But they did. I mean, you have to say they made a
01:14:17 ◼ ► decision. I feel like a lot of this ends up being, uh, about margins and about, I mean, they're probably
01:14:23 ◼ ► on the iPhone 14 production line. Uh, Dan Warren made that point last week on the six college podcast.
01:14:29 ◼ ► I think he's right. Like they, they took the iPhone 14 off sale. The iPhone 16 E seems really iPhone 14 E
01:14:36 ◼ ► in a lot of ways, uh, but it's not. Uh, and so like, you know, it's, it's Tim Cook's Apple. I'm sure some
01:14:43 ◼ ► degree of this is literally, they looked at the, they're going to a much more expensive, uh, product
01:14:48 ◼ ► line, right? They, the, those face ID sensors are not as expensive as they used to be when the iPhone
01:14:52 ◼ ► 10 came out, but they're still expensive. And the OLED screen is, it's not the new one with the dynamic
01:14:56 ◼ ► island, but it's still expensive. And they did the math and they said, well, you know, I, I took the
01:15:02 ◼ ► MagSafe and the colors away and it still needs to be five 99. And Tim Cook was like, fine, that's fine.
01:15:07 ◼ ► And that's, it's not very dramatic to say that somebody with a spreadsheet somewhere looked through
01:15:12 ◼ ► the parts bin and looked at the cost, but that's probably what happened. Yep. No, I think that's
01:15:18 ◼ ► exactly it is. It was a combination of what is the ultimate goal. If you take my theory as fact,
01:15:25 ◼ ► what in that, this was the 16 enterprise edition, you know, if, if we keep that lens, if we look at
01:15:31 ◼ ► everything through that lens, what are the things that we can drop? Because unquestionably
01:15:35 ◼ ► you can't have it all at this price point. It's not a cheap phone. I'm not trying to say it's a cheap
01:15:40 ◼ ► phone by any stretch, but you can't have it all. So what are you going to drop? And you're going to
01:15:42 ◼ ► drop the things that maybe a corporate or, you know, like educational customer won't care about.
01:15:48 ◼ ► And I'm not, again, I can't stress enough. This is not factual. I don't know. I have no birdies,
01:15:52 ◼ ► but this is the most logical interpretation I can find because otherwise some of these,
01:15:57 ◼ ► some of these removals or some of these things that have been left behind, if it really is a
01:16:02 ◼ ► consumer phone, like why not have the photographic styles? MagSafe is freaking great. I love MagSafe.
01:16:08 ◼ ► I would desperately miss MagSafe. I would probably miss MagSafe more than ultra wide band. And so,
01:16:13 ◼ ► you know, a lot of these, these things that are left behind look really weird if you look at it from
01:16:19 ◼ ► a consumer's perspective, but looking at it from a corporate perspective, they make at least some
01:16:23 ◼ ► modicum of sense. Right. And you end up with people who are just like, I just want an iPhone. I mean,
01:16:27 ◼ ► I might buy one of these for my mom because yeah, long story short, my, you know, her phone broke
01:16:31 ◼ ► while my sister was visiting her. And so she bought her an SE. And the problem is my mom has really
01:16:35 ◼ ► struggled in the desert with kind of wrinkly fingers. She can't get touch ID to work. And my sister bought
01:16:40 ◼ ► her another touch ID phone. I'm like so mad because like, no, she can't do touch ID. We need to get
01:16:46 ◼ ► her a face ID phone. So she still has to put in her password every time. It makes me so mad. I might
01:16:52 ◼ ► get her one of these. I told this to Mike, by the way, over the weekend. And he said, you're a good
01:16:56 ◼ ► son. That was very nice. Thank you, Mike. And there's, there's a marketing product line thing
01:17:01 ◼ ► too. I mean, it creates this $599, $699, $799, $899, $999, right? And then $1199 for the big one. But
01:17:09 ◼ ► like it, it, it does that where you can get an Apple intelligence model for $599. The $699
01:17:15 ◼ ► phone is not an Apple intelligence model. Um, there's, and then over time, I, I do think
01:17:21 ◼ ► that they'll probably update this phone every two or three years and that's good enough.
01:17:24 ◼ ► Right. And they'll, and they'll increment the number to whatever the latest is. I, you know,
01:17:29 ◼ ► it is not, look, it's probably not for anybody who listens to this podcast. Although I have been
01:17:34 ◼ ► surprised. There are a lot of people who just don't care about their iPhone and it's all,
01:17:43 ◼ ► fine. Like it's fine and you buy it and then you use it for seven years and it's fine. And
01:17:48 ◼ ► who cares? And I think that other than the people who want a small phone, and unfortunately the
01:17:52 ◼ ► truth is small phone era is just over Apple. If enough people bought it, Apple would make
01:17:57 ◼ ► one, not enough people buy it. It's sad. RIP iPhone mini, but that's just how it is. Uh,
01:18:03 ◼ ► but a lot of people don't really care about all these super powerful features. So I, I consider
01:18:10 ◼ ► MagSafe curious and I wonder if it, there was just simply an engineering decision where it's
01:18:14 ◼ ► like, we can't put that in and do this other thing that we need to do because you know, all
01:18:19 ◼ ► the accessories and now you've got this weird outlier that's a 16, but it's not compatible with
01:18:27 ◼ ► MagSafe accessories. It's not great. Not great. But you know, Apple, we've seen it with the Apple
01:18:32 ◼ ► pencil. We've seen it in a bunch of other areas. If it comes down to a little confusion in the
01:18:43 ◼ ► Every time, every time it's like, Oh, you got four Apple pencils there. And they're like, sorry,
01:18:46 ◼ ► I can't hear you. I'm counting my money right now. Because I do think that that's the, you know,
01:18:52 ◼ ► there's a lot of us on the outside are like, but Oh, but your product line could be much cleaner and
01:18:56 ◼ ► nicer. And then there's somebody with a spreadsheet inside of Apple. It was like, Nope. Right. Like
01:19:01 ◼ ► that simple. Um, always moving toward perfection, but never, ever, ever reaching it because reasons.
01:19:07 ◼ ► And, and that, that feels like that's part of the iPhone 16 e story. You know, the big story though,
01:19:11 ◼ ► is the C one, right? Like this is, we we've been talking to six years. We've been talking about
01:19:16 ◼ ► Apple building its own cellular chip, right? It bought Intel's modem business. Actually,
01:19:20 ◼ ► it's longer than that because I believe there were rumors that Apple was trying to build a cellular chip
01:19:24 ◼ ► themselves and they, and they were very frustrated. So it's probably more like eight years or 10 years
01:19:30 ◼ ► that this has been going on. But six, nearly six years ago, Apple bought Intel's modem business for a
01:19:36 ◼ ► billion dollars and then hired a bunch of people and it's taken them this long, but they've got
01:19:44 ◼ ► the C one, which is their first beachhead in not having to pay Qualcomm for chips, still had to pay them
01:19:50 ◼ ► for licensing patents probably for a long time, but not chips anymore in some of these products. Uh, I don't
01:20:00 ◼ ► know. We don't know enough about it. The product is not like we out yet. We don't have the details I have
01:20:05 ◼ ► predicted in the draft that there will be some scandal that comes out that Apple probably already
01:20:10 ◼ ► knows is true about the specs of this thing, but that they haven't talked about it. And then somebody
01:20:14 ◼ ► will find it and go, Oh no, the C one doesn't do this. And there'll be a, you know, tempest in a
01:20:19 ◼ ► teapot and then everybody will forget about it. But like, I feel like this is what this phone is going
01:20:22 ◼ ► to be remembered for. Cause this is the first step into a new world where I assume, you know, we are now
01:20:27 ◼ ► on the path where eventually every Apple product, please, please, please, including lap Mac laptops,
01:20:36 ◼ ► Yep. No, it's obvious that this was coming at some point. I mean, you don't have to be a talking head
01:20:42 ◼ ► like the two of us to look at Apple and realize this is a fundamental technology in so many of their
01:20:47 ◼ ► products, please, including the Mac books, please. And so they're going to want to control this.
01:20:51 ◼ ► I forget the quote, you know, exactly what quote I'm thinking of, but you know, it's in our best
01:20:55 ◼ ► interest to, you know, control all the stuff that our products rely on. It was said much more eloquently
01:20:59 ◼ ► than that, but you get the point. And, um, and so it is clear that they've been working. I mean,
01:21:04 ◼ ► obviously we've known it, but even if we didn't know it, it would be clear that they've been working
01:21:07 ◼ ► toward this for a long time. And it makes a lot of sense to take a phone that's, I don't think a lot
01:21:13 ◼ ► of, a lot of consumers are going to buy. Some certainly will. I'm not trying to say no, but none of them
01:21:25 ◼ ► Exactly. And so you take this, what presumably may not be in certainly in terms of like,
01:21:33 ◼ ► you know, your average consumer is not going to be the most popular phone and you experiment there
01:21:38 ◼ ► and it makes perfect sense. And one of the interesting things that this phone does have,
01:21:43 ◼ ► which we have not mentioned yet is of all the 16s I blur, no, it was all the 6.1 inch phones. I forget
01:21:48 ◼ ► the, the, the, um, asterisk they put on the statement, but it has better battery life than
01:21:54 ◼ ► most of its contemporaries. Yeah. If not all. Yeah. And there's 26 hours of constant video
01:22:01 ◼ ► playback. That's pretty good. That's pretty good. And the reason I bring this up in the,
01:22:06 ◼ ► in the context of the C1 is that they said during their presentation that this is the most power
01:22:12 ◼ ► efficient modem on the market. And so you can imagine, and you know, you can see how these two
01:22:17 ◼ ► are related. And we had at ATP, a handful of people that wrote in and said, look, the only thing I care
01:22:22 ◼ ► about in my phone is battery life. Everything else is secondary to that. So you know what I'm going to
01:22:26 ◼ ► be buying myself and iPhone 16 E and you know, I, I get that. And as a quick aside, another thing that
01:22:32 ◼ ► a handful of people said was that I guess MagSafe can interfere with pacemakers, um, which, which means
01:22:37 ◼ ► that if you have a phone without MagSafe, that's a great thing if you also have a pacemaker. So that's
01:22:41 ◼ ► another example. Um, but anyways, coming back to C1, this is extremely exciting and I am really happy and
01:22:49 ◼ ► curious to see how this rollout goes because I remember years ago, and I'm sure you do, you do too,
01:22:54 ◼ ► Jason. There was several years ago now, I don't recall which phone it was, but there was a lot
01:22:59 ◼ ► of brouhaha, some of which may have been invented. Some of which, some of which was probably real,
01:23:03 ◼ ► but Oh, if you have a Qualcomm modem, then your phone is faster or better. I forget the details,
01:23:09 ◼ ► but if you have one of the Intel modems, then yours is like, you know, hamstrung from the factory. And I
01:23:14 ◼ ► forget if it was speed or power, there was some issue. I don't recall what it was. I think it was top
01:23:19 ◼ ► data data rates. I think it was, and it was not a huge difference, but it was enough for nerds to notice
01:23:27 ◼ ► Exactly. And so I'm very curious to see, as you said a moment ago, what's going to be the drama
01:23:33 ◼ ► here. We already know some of the drama is no millimeter wave, but again, I think the only
01:23:36 ◼ ► person in the entire planet that cares about that is me because I happen to have a spot where,
01:23:41 ◼ ► which is millimeter wave. And I haven't been there in a long time, to be honest with you,
01:23:45 ◼ ► even though it's right around the corner from me, but it is incredibly cool. And sorry,
01:23:49 ◼ ► I should back up a half step. If you are, if you have service that supports millimeter wave,
01:24:00 ◼ ► Oh, is that right? Okay. My mistake. Either way, if you happen to be within, I think it's literally
01:24:05 ◼ ► eye shot of a tower that supports millimeter wave, you can. And I personally, with my own
01:24:13 ◼ ► telephone have gotten two and a half gigabits per second over the freaking air. Like it's incredible
01:24:22 ◼ ► It's got very, very low range and doesn't go through walls very well. So it's kind of like
01:24:28 ◼ ► wifi, but if you were in, so I did this over at the, um, at the palace of fine arts in San Francisco
01:24:36 ◼ ► at their, uh, their little duck pond and all of that. And the first Apple device that supported
01:24:41 ◼ ► millimeter wave, which I think was an iPad I took over there and it was the exact same thing,
01:24:46 ◼ ► which is like, Oh my goodness. It is incredibly fast, but it's not very popular because yeah,
01:24:51 ◼ ► the range is terrible on it. It's, it's fast, but the range is terrible on it. And it's essentially
01:24:55 ◼ ► like a hotspot from your wireless carrier. Uh, it really is just like a 5g tech demo, right? Like
01:25:02 ◼ ► it doesn't seem like it's very practical, but it's, it's cool, but it's not very practical. And it's
01:25:07 ◼ ► like, I totally see why Apple in building the scene one was like, Nope, but there'll be some other
01:25:14 ◼ ► quirk. I feel like it's almost certain. Maybe not, maybe not, but it feels like there'll be
01:25:18 ◼ ► some other quirk about it. Now Apple didn't talk about this a lot. And I know some people have said
01:25:22 ◼ ► like, aha, they didn't talk about it a lot. That means something. I was like, I don't know. I was
01:25:26 ◼ ► unsure if they were going to even mention that it's in there, but they did. Agreed. They, they mentioned
01:25:30 ◼ ► it and there's like a paragraph from Johnny Shroogey and somebody did a like brief interview with Johnny
01:25:35 ◼ ► Shroogey about this, the Apple chip chief, chief, chip, chief, uh, that guy, you know, uh, Mr. It's,
01:25:43 ◼ ► it's Johnny who y'all know, not that one, the other one. Uh, and that's it. So they did a little,
01:25:49 ◼ ► I would say part of the reason they did a little is because the goal is not for you to notice,
01:25:56 ◼ ► right? The goal is to ship it and have it just be fine. What they're not doing. And Mark Gurman has
01:26:03 ◼ ► talked about them building the C2 and the C3. Of course that like, we know that the, this group works
01:26:07 ◼ ► many generations ahead of reality, right? Like we know that. And, and I think Gurman's report said
01:26:14 ◼ ► they expect to match or exceed Qualcomm. You don't know what Qualcomm is going to do in the intervening
01:26:19 ◼ ► time with the C3 or something like that. So like, it's not like they can boast, ah, we've beaten Qualcomm.
01:26:25 ◼ ► It's really just like, look, we're in the game. Yes, we built this. Let's not make a big deal out of it.
01:26:31 ◼ ► I don't think that's because there's a scandal coming or something like that. I think there'll
01:26:38 ◼ ► it's not something to boast about. And so they're both, they're, they're doing the minimum boast,
01:26:43 ◼ ► right? Which is like, yeah, we made it and that's it. No, I couldn't agree more. You know,
01:26:47 ◼ ► just to tug on that thread just a little bit, if the C3 is the one that just really sticks it to
01:26:54 ◼ ► Qualcomm, could you call it maybe like, I can imagine like C3 performance optimized. And then you
01:27:00 ◼ ► would have the Apple C3PO. I can just see it now. Oh no. See, I thought you were going to say it's
01:27:05 ◼ ► really going to happen with the C4, which offers explosive speeds. Even better. This is all going
01:27:11 ◼ ► to happen. Everybody get ready for all the Star Trek memes next year or later this year when the M5
01:27:16 ◼ ► comes out, because the M5 was the ultimate thinking AI computer in a Star Trek episode. And at least
01:27:22 ◼ ► John Maltz and I are going to be flooding the internet with the ultimate computer episode of TOS memes
01:27:29 ◼ ► One other quick thing to mention before we move on is that I saw a video from a YouTuber,
01:27:34 ◼ ► Andrew Edwards. And as far as I know, he was the only one that got invited into Apple's lab and
01:27:41 ◼ ► was with Johnny Sruji that we were speaking about earlier. And he didn't have any interviews on camera
01:27:46 ◼ ► or anything like that. But a little bit into the video, let me see if I can grab a timestamp here
01:27:52 ◼ ► after my YouTube ad. I'll vamp while that's going on. In the YouTube video, at about five minutes and
01:27:59 ◼ ► 15 seconds or thereabouts, he kind of casually mentions that the A18 and C1 working in concert
01:28:06 ◼ ► supports dynamic traffic management. And the example he used was, you have just sent a photo to somebody.
01:28:12 ◼ ► I just sent Jason a picture from the UVA football game or what have you. And even though I'm sitting
01:28:20 ◼ ► there and also trying to refresh scores on ESPN or something like that, it knows that my priority is
01:28:26 ◼ ► likely to get that photo to Jason as quickly as possible. So that if I understand this and what
01:28:31 ◼ ► Andrew was saying correctly, the A18 and C1 can work in concert to say, yes, the user, me, does want to
01:28:37 ◼ ► look at ESPN. But the very first thing you need to do is get that photo to Jason as quickly as
01:28:41 ◼ ► possible. And it can make that kind of quality of service determination behind the scenes. This is
01:28:46 ◼ ► not something that I'm doing personally. It's doing on my behalf, but that's really cool. And this is
01:28:50 ◼ ► when Apple is at its finest is doing these little tweaks and doing these little things in order to
01:28:55 ◼ ► make the whole, the whole experience that much better. And I'm really excited to see where this goes,
01:29:02 ◼ ► if this is the case. And certainly if indeed these chips are that much power friendly, which I have no
01:29:09 ◼ ► reason to believe they aren't, you know, think of any time that your phone is in a spot with crummy
01:29:14 ◼ ► service and there's not a whole ton Apple can do about this. I don't reckon, but what your phone does
01:29:18 ◼ ► is it tries even harder to reach the near cell phone tower. So it will power up those radios even more.
01:29:26 ◼ ► But what if those radios are inherently more power sufficient? And I'm talking well out of my comfort zone.
01:29:32 ◼ ► I don't know if that's even realistic, but I can see how if this thing, which is arguably one of the
01:29:38 ◼ ► most power hungry things in your, in your phone, especially when the screen is off, if we can make that more
01:29:45 ◼ ► power efficient, we could see tremendous battery gains across the entire, maybe iPhone 17 lineup. And let me tell
01:29:50 ◼ ► you, I am here for battery gains. First, I would like you to be hired as the colors are, but after that, I would
01:29:56 ◼ ► be here for power gains. I would love it. I'd like somebody who is not colorblind to be the colors
01:30:00 ◼ ► are. I just want there to be one. Yeah. So, so the thing about that, that I, I saw that video
01:30:06 ◼ ► and it's very interesting, but it is marketing, right? Like I don't know enough about cellular chips to
01:30:12 ◼ ► not to know, like for all I know, Qualcomm has a system that allows their customers who are building
01:30:20 ◼ ► phones to prioritize certain kinds of traffic. They, they may have their own, you know, uh, QoS,
01:30:26 ◼ ► uh, quality of service kind of plan where you're like, this is a priority. Now this is a priority.
01:30:31 ◼ ► So one way you do marketing is you claim, here's a great thing that we built. Your competitor also
01:30:36 ◼ ► does that, but you don't mention that. Another thing is though, and what strikes me about this is
01:30:41 ◼ ► I was thinking like, even if Qualcomm does offer this sort of thing, it may be that they don't
01:30:49 ◼ ► offer it in the way that Apple would like them to. Right. And this, this takes us back to the bigger
01:30:54 ◼ ► point. And it's sort of like, if you think back to the Intel Mac era, for example, is Qualcomm
01:31:01 ◼ ► cellular chips like Intel processors are made for a market, right? Like they talk to their customers,
01:31:10 ◼ ► they'll do things for special customers, but basically like Intel made a chip and like PC makers
01:31:18 ◼ ► could use it and Apple could use it. And maybe Apple talks to them and says, could you please do this?
01:31:21 ◼ ► And occasionally that like they did that MacBook air chip, but then they did turn around and start
01:31:26 ◼ ► selling it to everybody else as well. Right. Like, and I'm sure Qualcomm does that too. Again,
01:31:30 ◼ ► I don't know enough about the cellular chip market, cellular motive market to know, but I imagine it's
01:31:36 ◼ ► very similar where Qualcomm has got parts and they talk to their partners about what they need, but in
01:31:41 ◼ ► the end they make a part that is productized. It is for anybody to buy on their price list, more or less.
01:31:46 ◼ ► And that is not what Apple does with Apple Silicon. And I think it, that's why it has so much
01:31:53 ◼ ► interesting potential is that the look, I have over the last few years had a chance at some of these
01:31:59 ◼ ► product launches to talk at least briefly with people who are involved in the Apple Silicon
01:32:03 ◼ ► process and what they keep impressing on me. And again, this is also marketing, but I do believe
01:32:09 ◼ ► that this is how they think, which is every Apple Silicon chip, they know what products it goes in,
01:32:15 ◼ ► right? Like they, they build it for specific products. The M4, they're like, they know it's going in
01:32:23 ◼ ► the iPad Pro and the MacBook Pro and the MacBook Air. And like they, they could tick off every product
01:32:30 ◼ ► it's designed for. And that gives Apple some special powers to do what Apple wants for the products that
01:32:39 ◼ ► it's building. And so when I look at the C1, that's what I think is maybe they're talking a good game
01:32:44 ◼ ► about this stuff, but Qualcomm does something similar. But what it means is that Apple can now
01:32:50 ◼ ► control, especially going forward, when this is everywhere, it can, it can build in stuff that is
01:32:57 ◼ ► optimized only for them because they don't make that product for anyone else. It doesn't need to do
01:33:02 ◼ ► anything right. And therefore it's more efficient because they don't need to do anything that is
01:33:07 ◼ ► some other customer of Qualcomm's needs that Apple doesn't need, or a specific thing that Apple would
01:33:12 ◼ ► really, really, really like Qualcomm to have done five years ago and Qualcomm just won't do it.
01:33:16 ◼ ► Like they can just do all that stuff now. And that's, that's why the C1 is exciting to me
01:33:20 ◼ ► is because it suggests that Apple by taking complete control over it is going to get, is going to get
01:33:27 ◼ ► benefits in terms of functionality and in terms of optimization, because they're just making it for
01:33:31 ◼ ► themselves. Yep. I couldn't agree more. It's a very astute point. And, and again, like that's where
01:33:36 ◼ ► this gets really interesting is seeing Apple, you know, working on both sides of the table,
01:33:42 ◼ ► so to speak in that, you know, instead of asking Qualcomm, may we have it now it's just, okay,
01:33:49 ◼ ► we need go build it. You know, and it's hard to say no to your coworkers, you know? And, and so I think
01:33:57 ◼ ► this could be very interesting. And, and, and I, I think C1 that it's, it's interesting in of itself,
01:34:02 ◼ ► for sure. But it's that at this point, we're just trying to get to table stakes. And again,
01:34:06 ◼ ► we don't even have millimeter wave and whether or not you think that matters personally,
01:34:10 ◼ ► factually speaking, it's not table or it is table stakes, I guess I should say. And we don't have
01:34:15 ◼ ► it yet, but maybe the C2 does have millimeter wave. And maybe the C3 is where we start to get really
01:34:21 ◼ ► interesting and exciting stuff. And I am very, very excited to see how this goes. And you made a very
01:34:27 ◼ ► good point earlier that this is one of those like kind of flies under the radar sort of things that
01:34:32 ◼ ► we probably won't hear all that much about, but I think this is where a lot of the interesting stuff
01:34:39 ◼ ► with iPhones and hopefully max, God help us. I hope so. That's where a lot of the interesting stuff is
01:34:47 ◼ ► Yeah. I hope this is the thing that leads to cellular max because we're not going to get into it here.
01:34:53 ◼ ► You can listen to a recent episode of ATP where they, they went through it again about why
01:35:02 ◼ ► You know, very quickly, you can, you can tether, but it's not great. And we like it better if you
01:35:08 ◼ ► don't have to, but it'd be better if you don't have to just very, very quickly. Uh, I forget how this
01:35:12 ◼ ► came up, but we were talking, I think a friend of mine was over who was also an Apple nerd like me.
01:35:17 ◼ ► And we were talking about this briefly and, and he had made a joke that, Oh, I'm going to have to
01:35:22 ◼ ► upgrade my laptop recently or soon. And Aaron was like, I'm sorry, what? And he was like, no, no,
01:35:27 ◼ ► no, because he might have cellular MacBooks. And she was like, what are you talking about? And I said,
01:35:30 ◼ ► Oh, well, you know, we might be able to get an internet connection on my MacBook, blah, blah, blah.
01:35:32 ◼ ► And let me tell you, I have not, I have no interest in upgrading my M3 max MacBook pro. I genuinely
01:35:38 ◼ ► don't like it's great. Yeah. But if there is a cellular MacBook pro, I will insta buy it at any
01:35:44 ◼ ► cost. Like I don't care. It will be immediately purchased at any cost whatsoever. I am that excited
01:35:51 ◼ ► for it. Yeah. And it's fine if you don't get it. But, um, uh, my problem is when people don't get why
01:35:58 ◼ ► we want this and therefore say it shouldn't exist because you're basically saying, look, I know you
01:36:03 ◼ ► like it, but no, you can't have it. And like, we can, we can talk until we're blue about why we
01:36:08 ◼ ► think cellular in a Mac laptop would be great because I think cellular and iPads is great.
01:36:13 ◼ ► And I don't buy non-cellular iPads anymore because it's great, but we're not going to get into that
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01:38:35 ◼ ► of relay Casey. It's gadget time. Oh, I'm excited. It's gadget time. I wanted to having you on, I wanted
01:38:46 ◼ ► to do a little home gadget check-in because I am a big believer in home gadgetry, especially I would say
01:38:55 ◼ ► ambient information. I know you recently, I don't know if you want to give people a little update. You did,
01:39:00 ◼ ► you recently did a project where you basically have this super stealthy thing in your light switch
01:39:07 ◼ ► that gives you ambient information with, which is like, I love, I tell, tell people what you did.
01:39:18 ◼ ► Sure. So I somehow, for some reason, I don't really know why I got it in my brain that I wanted to be
01:39:25 ◼ ► able to know a couple of things about the state of my like house and world. And I wanted to be able to
01:39:29 ◼ ► know that as you said, ambiently ambient is the perfect word for it. And we had in our kitchen,
01:39:35 ◼ ► a former telephone Jack that I took away because we haven't had a home phone in years. And I put just
01:39:41 ◼ ► a blank there and it occurred to me, wait a second, what if I got like programmable LEDs and I could
01:39:46 ◼ ► turn on LEDs or turn them off based on the state of certain things. And that did not pass. As I like
01:39:53 ◼ ► to joke, the historical commission, which is to say my beloved wife, Erin said, I don't know if I'm
01:39:57 ◼ ► really in love with that idea, but we were able to reach a compromise, which is there's a, like this
01:40:03 ◼ ► odd manufacturer of smart home stuff, which I'd never heard of previously called HomeSeer,
01:40:07 ◼ ► H-O-M-E-S-E-E-R. And they make light switches, which are the standard paddle light switches that
01:40:13 ◼ ► you'll see in most homes in America anyway. But what's interesting about them is that they're
01:40:18 ◼ ► dimmers. And on the side, there's a series of seven LEDs that by default indicate how powered the
01:40:25 ◼ ► fixture is, you know, is it very dim or very, or very bright, but you can tell it not to do that.
01:40:31 ◼ ► And instead give you full control over how those LEDs are lit, what color they are, which ones are lit,
01:40:37 ◼ ► et cetera. And we're probably going to talk about in a minute or, uh, or maybe we'll talk about it next.
01:40:42 ◼ ► Uh, I've become one of those home assistant, uh, zealots slash, uh, you know, people that won't stop
01:40:49 ◼ ► talking about home assistants. And now I'm talking to you about it rolling my eyes. Yep. Yeah, I know.
01:40:53 ◼ ► And it's fair because we are the worst. It's just like CrossFit, you know, as soon as you start
01:40:57 ◼ ► CrossFit or as soon as you start home assistant, all you can talk about is CrossFit or home assistant.
01:41:00 ◼ ► And so in any case, what I've done is I've set up with home assistants such that there's a, there,
01:41:07 ◼ ► again, there's seven lights. I'm only using three of them at the moment. One of them will turn red
01:41:11 ◼ ► when the garage door is open and it, when it will, it will turn itself off when the garage door closes.
01:41:16 ◼ ► One of them will turn white when the Volvo, Aaron has a plug-in hybrid Volvo. And when it's charging,
01:41:21 ◼ ► it'll turn white when it's charged, it'll turn off. And then, uh, John Syracuse and my cohost on ATP
01:41:26 ◼ ► turned me on to these, uh, long range, uh, but very low power, uh, smart home gadgets by a company
01:41:33 ◼ ► called Yolink Y O L I N K. And so I installed one of these, like a contact sensor. That's one of those
01:41:39 ◼ ► things where it knows if things are closed or open. And I installed one on my mailbox. So when the
01:41:43 ◼ ► mailbox is opened, it's a little more complicated than this, but the short of it is when the mailbox is
01:41:47 ◼ ► opened, then a blue light will appear on this light switch that is in the kitchen. And they're
01:41:52 ◼ ► very physically small LEDs. They're only a millimeter or two across. So if you're looking at it, you 100%
01:41:59 ◼ ► can see them very easily. But if you're just kind of passing by, you might not even notice. And this has
01:42:04 ◼ ► been such a delight for me, not because any of this is really useful, like in particular, whether or not
01:42:11 ◼ ► the car is charging, is that really actionable? No. Am I going to postpone a trip somewhere on account
01:42:22 ◼ ► But the ambient thing, it makes you know, like, Oh, did I forget to plug in the car? Oh no, it's
01:42:26 ◼ ► charging. And, and, and that's it. Right. It's like you otherwise would have to go outside and look
01:42:30 ◼ ► or go in the garage and look and see whether the car is charging or not. But now, you know,
01:42:34 ◼ ► Oh yeah, no, I did it already. I don't need to worry about it, which is, is right. You know,
01:42:38 ◼ ► that's, that's what, that's, what's great about this ambient stuff is, you know, it lets you know
01:42:43 ◼ ► at a glance, whether something is going on that previously would have required you to either go
01:42:47 ◼ ► somewhere or bring up a computer to look right. Or a phone or whatever. And instead, you're just like
01:42:52 ◼ ► the lights on. And like, imagine, I think this is a real thing. Like the, the, a light in your house
01:42:59 ◼ ► lets you know if you left the garage door open, like that's great. That is, that should be a feature
01:43:04 ◼ ► of houses. Right. Exactly. And it's, it's just silly things like that. And more than anything else,
01:43:10 ◼ ► it was like, I, I nerd sniped myself and I just, I wanted to see if I could do this and I was able to,
01:43:16 ◼ ► and it, and I honestly believe that it looks pretty reasonable. This is a, a manufactured, uh, you know,
01:43:24 ◼ ► a smart light switch. It's not me drilling holes into like a blank outlet cover or anything like that,
01:43:31 ◼ ► which as, as hard I would, as I may have tried, it would have looked janky. And so the historical
01:43:35 ◼ ► commission was right to veto it, but, uh, I think it looks pretty good, but I got to tell you,
01:43:40 ◼ ► there's another ambient thing in my life that I'm really enjoying that I know is also entering your
01:43:45 ◼ ► world or has actually been in your world for a long time. So I, I, Marco brought, talked about this
01:43:50 ◼ ► thing called terminal. Now full disclosure, they are going to sponsor ATP in the future, but I had never
01:43:55 ◼ ► heard of this. Marco bought it of his own volition with his own money, et cetera, et cetera. Uh,
01:44:04 ◼ ► e-ink thing that you can put all sorts of interesting stuff on. So for me, I have it at the
01:44:11 ◼ ► moment split in half and the left-hand side shows the agenda, if you will, for the family for the next
01:44:18 ◼ ► few days. And then the right-hand side is split in half again. So there's, uh, there's the weather in
01:44:24 ◼ ► the upper right, as I look at this. And then speaking of ambient computing on the bottom,
01:44:29 ◼ ► right, um, we've been having some problems with both our indoor, our main refrigerator and our,
01:44:34 ◼ ► uh, garage refrigerator. And we got different yield link devices. I actually haven't spoken about this
01:44:39 ◼ ► on ATP. We got different yield link devices that'll tell you temperature. And we were trying to figure
01:44:45 ◼ ► out, are these fridges really broken or not? And so what I did was I used terminal. Now to be clear,
01:44:56 ◼ ► which we'll talk about more, I'm sure in a second. And I actually have now granted it doesn't update
01:45:00 ◼ ► very frequently, but I have the current temperature of both the indoor fridge, the indoor freezer,
01:45:05 ◼ ► the outdoor free fridge and the outdoor freezer on here, just because we were trying to keep an eye
01:45:09 ◼ ► on it. As it turns out, we're getting a new set of fridges on Friday. So that'll go away.
01:45:13 ◼ ► But the point is I can, because I'm a dork and because I can write a little bit of code and
01:45:19 ◼ ► because of home assistant, I can put something like that. The temperature of a refrigerator inside
01:45:25 ◼ ► my house, I can put that on this little e-ink thing that will probably live on our refrigerator
01:45:31 ◼ ► at some point, but currently it's just sitting on the windowsill in front of the kitchen sink,
01:45:34 ◼ ► which is also pretty central to the kitchen. It is so delightful. And I love this thing and
01:45:40 ◼ ► the battery life, especially if you get the extended battery, which is not very expensive. And that's
01:45:47 ◼ ► really good stuff. That's the beauty of e-ink. So this is actually shockingly similar to my existing
01:45:51 ◼ ► e-ink calendar that I wrote about a few years ago that I still use that's in my kitchen.
01:45:56 ◼ ► The big difference, it's the same, it's basically the same screen. I think mine has a second color,
01:46:00 ◼ ► but otherwise it's basically the same. Black and white screen, e-ink, doesn't use power except when
01:46:07 ◼ ► it's drawing. Otherwise there's no power. And my thing is a Raspberry Pi. So it's got power all the
01:46:12 ◼ ► time and no battery. This not only does it have a much better case because mine's a 3D printed case.
01:46:16 ◼ ► It's got the battery, which is great. And it's an ESP32, which is like this other thing. I've got
01:46:22 ◼ ► the ink plate six color, which I have been experimenting with lately. And it's battery life
01:46:27 ◼ ► is also bananas. And the reason is these ESP32s are super low power. They've got a sleep mode. You
01:46:32 ◼ ► basically tell it to wake up every so often and check a remote server via your wifi. And then they
01:46:39 ◼ ► check and then they write to the e-ink screen and then they go back down and use essentially no power
01:46:44 ◼ ► until they wake up again. And this is why you can have them last forever and ever and ever. Cause you
01:46:48 ◼ ► know, a phone screen, you've got to power it and backlight it and all those things. You don't do any
01:46:53 ◼ ► of that with e-ink. It doesn't have any backlights or anything. It's just natural light on it like
01:46:58 ◼ ► anything else, like a piece of paper, but, um, it's great. I'm exploring the terminal stuff because
01:47:03 ◼ ► again, um, I want to, I love the idea that somebody made a product of this and it's a nerdy product,
01:47:10 ◼ ► but it is a product. And, and that is in contrast to my thing where I bought a, a screen and a raspberry
01:47:17 ◼ ► pie and, and, and took a GitHub project that was written in Python. That was like a German guy who wrote a,
01:47:24 ◼ ► it was like a portal themed desk calendar. It was, and I, I, you know, I tore apart most of his code,
01:47:31 ◼ ► uh, and made what I wanted and I've used it for a few years now. This is like that, but turned into
01:47:37 ◼ ► a product. The case is so nice. It's so well done because it's not a 3d printed case. It's a mass
01:47:43 ◼ ► produced case. Um, you know, they're using injection molding or something to do it. It's got that battery in
01:47:49 ◼ ► it. And, and then they put a web interface on it. So basically you go to their website and there are
01:47:54 ◼ ► apps that you can get, and there are plugins that you can write yourself. It's basically using HTML
01:47:59 ◼ ► technology for the display and the way it works in order to keep it all sort of server side is it uses
01:48:06 ◼ ► all that. And then it renders it into an image. And the image is what gets downloaded by your terminal
01:48:11 ◼ ► at your house. Right? Like, so all the brains are on the server. They are not in the terminal. The
01:48:15 ◼ ► terminal knows enough to wake up and ask when it asks, what image do you have for me? And it asks,
01:48:21 ◼ ► when should I wake up next? And that's it. Right. Exactly. That's, that's all it does. So I love,
01:48:27 ◼ ► I love this. I have played with this. I have it, um, in my kitchen right now, right next to my other
01:48:31 ◼ ► thing. And what I've ended up with is I've got a couple of boxes that are generated by,
01:48:42 ◼ ► I've already got some JSON files on my web server. That's my server in my house. And so I can have a,
01:48:48 ◼ ► I can have a custom plugin for terminal that just looks at my JSON files on Snell zone. Uh,
01:48:53 ◼ ► because that's what it is. Snell zone. It's a real, it's a real web server in my house. So, um,
01:48:59 ◼ ► and displays those. So I've got, um, basically I'm caching Apple's weather kit data locally because
01:49:09 ◼ ► I can, I can load it a lot, but if I had lots of devices loading it a lot, it might be a problem.
01:49:15 ◼ ► So I have my server every 10 minutes or 15 minutes or whatever. I don't even remember what it is.
01:49:20 ◼ ► 30 minutes. It, it goes and pulls weather kit data from Apple and just writes it on my server
01:49:25 ◼ ► so that all my other scripts just look at my server instead of making an API call. It's easier.
01:49:31 ◼ ► And it's just a JSON file. So I was able to get that up and running where I have a little thing
01:49:35 ◼ ► with, uh, with, uh, the high for the next six days or something. And a little graphic of what the,
01:49:41 ◼ ► you know, conditions are going to be a rain cloud or a sun or whatever. Um, and then on the left side,
01:49:47 ◼ ► what I ended up doing, I was using their, their calendar plugin. Um, but I found it hard to read.
01:49:51 ◼ ► And the thing is I solved this problem. I have a, I have a Python script that outputs an image
01:49:56 ◼ ► with my calendar and Lauren's calendar on it already. So I actually just have it loading that image.
01:50:03 ◼ ► That's super cool. That I love that. I genuinely love that. I'm not trying to be sarcastic. That is
01:50:08 ◼ ► really genuine. Yeah. I mean, cause I'm reusing. So here's the truth of it. I suspect that in the end,
01:50:12 ◼ ► I'm going to like the, uh, the case and battery of it so much. And, and the web stuff is okay. Although
01:50:21 ◼ ► you've got to learn somebody else's web framework in order to get the layout right. And the problem I
01:50:26 ◼ ► have with a terminal is that I already solved this problem myself. Yeah. But this is the thing is most
01:50:31 ◼ ► people haven't. And, and I love that they are making this. It's still a super nerdy product,
01:50:35 ◼ ► right. But it is a level, a level down from having your own raspberry PI and your own Python script
01:50:42 ◼ ► that you have hacked to connect to various APIs in order to get it to work. Right. Like I already did
01:50:48 ◼ ► that. If you gave me a terminal now, I wouldn't do that because yeah, exactly. Why, but I've already
01:50:54 ◼ ► done it. So I suspect that in the end, what my terminal is going to end up being is just displaying
01:51:00 ◼ ► images generated on my server by my scripts, because then I have like, we have, it's like your
01:51:05 ◼ ► ambient lights. I have, if it's going to, if Apple weather says it's going to rain today,
01:51:09 ◼ ► it puts a, an umbrella on the screen of my calendar. Nice. And this actually happened last
01:51:15 ◼ ► week where Lauren was going to walk out the door and she said, Oh, the umbrella is up. I
01:51:17 ◼ ► better bring an umbrella or a raincoat because it was, it wasn't raining, but it was going to
01:51:41 ◼ ► of boxes. Right. And, and it's great. Cause I don't need to look it up. It's just right
01:51:47 ◼ ► there. It's like, Oh, it's paper tonight. And then I'll take out the right one. A little
01:51:50 ◼ ► ambient thing. It's fun to do that in terminal. Like then you're dealing with logic, which
01:51:56 ◼ ► it doesn't really want to do. And like, I was just like, I'm not like, this is why I probably
01:52:01 ◼ ► am just going to keep doing this myself because I've gone too far. Like I, some people said
01:52:06 ◼ ► he should have stopped before he went too far, but he went too far. Um, but for, for people
01:52:12 ◼ ► who listen to shows like this, I think this is a great sort of starter kit for doing ambient
01:52:17 ◼ ► devices to forgetting a great, what's great about having a low power e-ink display into your
01:52:23 ◼ ► life. Because while it's actually not great for stuff like your, your, uh, fridge temperatures,
01:52:28 ◼ ► because like I've got current, I've got a, uh, electric time that shows like the current time
01:52:33 ◼ ► and temperature. And it's a not an e-ink device. It's a different device. Like I can show, I can use
01:52:39 ◼ ► that feed and show current temperature on the e-ink thing, but it only updates every half hour or
01:52:43 ◼ ► whatever. So it's not actually the current temperature. And so it's not for that. It's not
01:52:48 ◼ ► going to, you could have it show whether your garage door is open or not, but it would actually
01:52:55 ◼ ► Exactly right. It's, and coincidentally, I did do that. I very briefly integrated like home
01:53:00 ◼ ► assistant terminal and whatnot, and it wasn't that terribly difficult to do. Uh, but then I realized,
01:53:05 ◼ ► cause I didn't realize how infrequently the terminal updates, which to your point is something
01:53:09 ◼ ► like half an hour by default. And they're working on bringing that down, but it'll kill the battery
01:53:19 ◼ ► you want to put this on magnets on your, on your, uh, on your fridge, you really want it
01:53:22 ◼ ► to last three months or whatever, which it probably will. I've got, uh, I've got that little ink
01:53:28 ◼ ► plate six color. Um, and it's been running for a couple of weeks now. Um, checking my calendar
01:53:33 ◼ ► again, a version of my calendar image every three hours or something, uh, which is all I need
01:53:41 ◼ ► for my calendar really. And it's, it's two weeks and going strong. I don't know how long
01:53:45 ◼ ► it's going to last, but it's like one of those examples of it. Once you've got a device that
01:53:50 ◼ ► will go for weeks or months without a charge, you can just put it without a cord on your fridge
01:53:55 ◼ ► or wherever. Exactly. And you don't need a cord dangling. You don't need anything like that.
01:53:59 ◼ ► And then every so often you take it off and plug it in for a couple hours and then it's good
01:54:03 ◼ ► for another few months. It's awesome. That's why I do recommend, um, if people are interested
01:54:09 ◼ ► in this, that they try the terminal, um, not a sponsor here. I don't think it's even a future
01:54:15 ◼ ► sponsor here, but like it, what this is, this is, it is a lot of times I write about this stuff and
01:54:20 ◼ ► people are like, Oh, but raspberry pie and Python. And I have to write a script that is writing images
01:54:25 ◼ ► on onto a, an image file that then gets put on, you know, like it's too much. It's just too much.
01:54:30 ◼ ► And, and most people don't have Dr. Drang like I do, who, where I can say, Hey, Dr. Drang,
01:54:35 ◼ ► I need your help with some Python. Uh, true, true story. There's a, there's a couple of posts on Dr.
01:54:41 ◼ ► Drang's, uh, uh, site, which I guess I need to link to now, uh, where he helped me out with part of this
01:54:46 ◼ ► project. Um, and so most people don't have that. My point is that's okay. Terminal is an attempt to
01:54:53 ◼ ► make something that again is not, it's super nerdy, right? It's just not so super nerdy that
01:55:00 ◼ ► you need to be writing your own custom Python script. Um, and that's, I think that's good.
01:55:05 ◼ ► I also like the fact that they are open sourcing their firmware and there's a way to get it to not
01:55:10 ◼ ► use their servers. And they have a commitment that if they go out of business, they, you know,
01:55:14 ◼ ► you can basically make it run without using their servers at all. You can use their software on your
01:55:20 ◼ ► server. You can like, there's so many other ways to do it, but also they're trying to put a nice UI
01:55:27 ◼ ► on this so that more regular people can say, can I just add the Google calendar widget and put in my
01:55:32 ◼ ► calendar or, or the iCloud calendar widget and put in my calendar and then put a weather forecast in
01:55:38 ◼ ► with my zip code and get something that is nice and updates every three or six hours. And is, is all
01:55:45 ◼ ► the things that are good about using an e-ink display for this kind of ambient information where
01:55:50 ◼ ► like now you've got, imagine a piece of paper, except it's your Google calendar or your iCloud
01:55:55 ◼ ► calendar. That's awesome. That's kind of awesome. Yeah. And that's what this is. And the genesis of
01:56:00 ◼ ► this, part of the reason I was so excited about it was we, we literally at the end of the very last day
01:56:07 ◼ ► of the month, I will go into my Apple calendar on my Mac and are into the calendar app and I will print
01:56:12 ◼ ► the family calendar because at this point it's just Aaron and me for all intents and purposes.
01:56:17 ◼ ► You know, the kids aren't old enough to have their own real calendars and we'll, I'll print the Apple
01:56:22 ◼ ► calendar and I will, you know, put that on magnets on the fridge. And that's great because our, our lives
01:56:29 ◼ ► are not that busy that the calendar changes all the time, but you know, what's great than a calendar
01:56:33 ◼ ► that never changes is a calendar that will change and will update itself. And so this thing, even if to
01:56:39 ◼ ► your point earlier, even if it only updates every three or six or nine hours, it's still better than
01:56:44 ◼ ► one that only updates when you go upstairs and print a new copy and then bring that back down.
01:56:48 ◼ ► Like that is a much preferred version of, of all of this than, uh, than, than the piece of paper,
01:56:54 ◼ ► you know, that's just stuck on your fridge. So I am really enthusiastic about this. Uh, once we get our
01:56:58 ◼ ► new fridges, hopefully Friday, I will be able to re repurpose that corner of the terminal and I will
01:57:03 ◼ ► probably mount this on the, uh, incoming fridge, you know, at that point. And I'm, I'm really excited
01:57:08 ◼ ► about it. Very, very nice. Well, we're going to talk about home assistant and upgrade plus. So
01:57:15 ◼ ► yes, I love this. Hang on for that, but this is going to be the end of the regular episode. You
01:57:19 ◼ ► can send us your feedback, follow up on questions. I have to read it. So be nice. Upgradefeedback.com.
01:57:24 ◼ ► Just please, I beg you. Uh, but, uh, thank you to our members who support us with upgrade plus. We
01:57:32 ◼ ► will be talking about some other Casey stuff, home assistant. Maybe we'll talk about call sheet a
01:57:35 ◼ ► little bit, get upgrade plus.com. If you want to buy a gift for Mike and his baby, um, upgrade plus
01:57:41 ◼ ► is a great way to support Mike and his growing family. How about that? That is a, that is a thing
01:57:46 ◼ ► that Mike wrote, but I am just going to keep on saying it. Uh, you can obviously find us on YouTube
01:57:52 ◼ ► by searching for upgrade plus thanks to our sponsors vitally Google Gemini and express VPN. But most of all,
01:57:59 ◼ ► thank you all for listening. And most, most of all, thank you, Casey Liss for guesting for Mike,
01:58:04 ◼ ► the new dad. You're doing your friend a solid and you're doing me a solid too. Thank you so much for
01:58:09 ◼ ► being here. No, the pleasure is all mine. It is such a pleasure to, to be on the show with you. And
01:58:14 ◼ ► if you'll permit me to blow a little smoke here, upgrade is such an impossibly good program. And I
01:58:19 ◼ ► get more annoyed at upgrade than I think I do at any other show because you guys make such good points.
01:58:24 ◼ ► So often in every single episode, there's at least one of you that at least once I say,
01:58:28 ◼ ► Oh, I wish I thought of that. And so I know I'm preaching to the choir since you're listening to
01:58:32 ◼ ► me say this on upgrade, but for what it's worth, you can extract this and use it elsewhere. I love
01:58:37 ◼ ► this show so much. I love this show so much. And you two are so great together. And even though it's
01:58:41 ◼ ► fun to have a little diversion, nevertheless, uh, I am really excited for Mike, for Mike to come back
01:58:52 ◼ ► I know. Right. I can. I can think about it, but that idiot Casey that never got anything
01:58:57 ◼ ► right. Yeah. What's wrong with upgradefeedback.com, I guess. Um, you can send your own feedback in
01:59:02 ◼ ► about yourself if you really want to. Uh, yeah, no, I, I really appreciate it. Thank you so much
01:59:06 ◼ ► for being here next week. Mike will be back because we prerecorded an episode because I'm on vacation
01:59:12 ◼ ► next week and Mike is on paternity leave. And like what happens to the podcast then? And the answer
01:59:16 ◼ ► is we prerecorded something that I think is really super fun and I hope you will all like, and I hope
01:59:21 ◼ ► nothing enormous happens in the news in the next week because we're not going to cover it next week.