ATP

00:00:00 ◼   ► I am happy tonight because I just got on the phone with us. That's what happened.

00:00:04 ◼   ► Of course. That's, that's obviously the reason. It's definitely not that I finally found decent barbecue brisket on Long Island.

00:00:12 ◼   ► Ah, you know, you, you now sort of kind of owe me a visit. I think you visited, no, actually you might be even up in, in lifetime visits, but, uh, you should come, you should come visit me at some point.

00:00:23 ◼   ► And we have several barbecue spots in Richmond that I genuinely think are quite, quite good. Not to say they're better than what you've got or anything like that, but they're, they're very good.

00:00:32 ◼   ► They're almost certainly better than what we've got.

00:00:34 ◼   ► Oh, all right. Well, I'm trying.

00:00:35 ◼   ► Barbecue tends to get better the further south you go in the United States.

00:00:38 ◼   ► Well, that is true, but I'm trying to be inclusive here, but.

00:00:41 ◼   ► It's the opposite of coffee.

00:00:43 ◼   ► In any case, I'd love to take you to a couple of local, local haunts that I don't think I was aware of the last time you were here.

00:00:50 ◼   ► Cause it's been a, it's been a minute since you've been down here.

00:00:52 ◼   ► So if you're looking for a barbecue adventure, you let me know, you can come visit here.

00:00:56 ◼   ► And now at this point, all the North Carolinians and Tennesseans are all getting angry and saying Virginia is not for barbecue and you're wrong.

00:01:04 ◼   ► It's better than New York.

00:01:05 ◼   ► I'll tell you that.

00:01:06 ◼   ► I bet you there's some really good spots in New York city, for example, and you're not that far from New York City.

00:01:11 ◼   ► The problem with barbecue is it takes so much time and space to do right that it really, that it doesn't, it doesn't really fit into like a, lots of things you can do if you just have like a hole in the wall and, you know, a place to do it and just someone who's dedicated to it.

00:01:26 ◼   ► But barbecue is just such, there's so much, I mean, so much time and smoke.

00:01:32 ◼   ► Like it just doesn't fit well in the city.

00:01:34 ◼   ► It's a specialty.

00:01:34 ◼   ► Like you, you need special equipment.

00:01:36 ◼   ► You need, like it is, it's a very like specialized, dedicated stuff just to make this kind of product.

00:01:44 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:01:44 ◼   ► It doesn't fit in an urban environment that well, like because of all the time and the smoke and the heat and the, just the, just.

00:01:50 ◼   ► I mean, people do it, just not a lot of people and it's not very good.

00:01:53 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:01:54 ◼   ► I mean, it's the type of thing, it's the same thing with like, oh, why can't we get good pizza outside of New York?

00:01:58 ◼   ► And so people would, who knew how to make good pizza would go to other parts of the country and you can, like, you don't need that much space for it.

00:02:03 ◼   ► You can just, you know, get a little restaurant and get the right ingredients and do it right.

00:02:07 ◼   ► But I think barbecue is more difficult.

00:02:08 ◼   ► Uh, and also I don't think the market for it's that big.

00:02:11 ◼   ► Like people like pizza everywhere, but barbecue is more of a specialized taste.

00:02:16 ◼   ► I feel like.

00:02:17 ◼   ► Any person that likes tasty food could enjoy barbecue, but I will agree with you.

00:02:21 ◼   ► I'm not saying they wouldn't like it.

00:02:22 ◼   ► They just don't know that they, you know what I mean?

00:02:24 ◼   ► Like they don't know that they, they don't seek it out because they think what barbecue is, is whatever.

00:02:28 ◼   ► I don't even know what they think it is, but they don't know what it actually is.

00:02:31 ◼   ► So they have no reason to seek it out.

00:02:32 ◼   ► They think it's just a cookout.

00:02:34 ◼   ► Like most people think barbecue is meat cooked on a grill, which is not.

00:02:38 ◼   ► We're talking about like slow smoked meat.

00:02:41 ◼   ► This is not, not even, it's not even the same food.

00:02:44 ◼   ► Like it, but I mean, it's probably like barbecue.

00:02:47 ◼   ► Barbecue is really unhealthy for lots of reasons.

00:02:49 ◼   ► Like, you know, all the wood smoke is full of carcinogens and you're eating huge amounts of fatty meats.

00:02:54 ◼   ► So like it, it's not something that you should have like as easy.

00:02:57 ◼   ► I mean, I know pizza is no gem in the health realm either, but I think it's less bad than barbecue.

00:03:03 ◼   ► That's the one you, it's going to kill you.

00:03:05 ◼   ► You're going to die of cancer.

00:03:06 ◼   ► Barbecue is probably worse.

00:03:07 ◼   ► If you're going to die of a high cholesterol, pizza is probably worse.

00:03:09 ◼   ► Right, exactly.

00:03:11 ◼   ► Neither one should be a huge part of anybody's diet.

00:03:14 ◼   ► All right, let's do some follow-up.

00:03:17 ◼   ► Very, very quickly, a service I provide to you, the audience, is that I mentioned the once a year, I'm sorry, once a month or two, that Apple releases new immersive content.

00:03:29 ◼   ► On the Vision Pro, there is a new immersive video, Man vs. Beast.

00:03:31 ◼   ► This is about rodeo.

00:03:33 ◼   ► Speaking of things that are perhaps Southern or maybe that the three of us are not very familiar with, I was thinking about it.

00:03:39 ◼   ► We don't need to belabor this, but I think one of the things I really love about this series and the videos that Apple's put out, immersive videos that Apple's put out,

00:03:46 ◼   ► is that a lot of them are exposing me to different activities and sports and whatnot that I'm just deeply unfamiliar with, which I think is really neat.

00:03:54 ◼   ► And this was, again, rodeo.

00:03:56 ◼   ► It was filmed a lot at night, which, to my recollection, not a lot of what we've seen so far was filmed at night.

00:04:02 ◼   ► A lot of it was in very bright daylight, which obviously lends itself to be filmed pretty well and pretty easily.

00:04:07 ◼   ► But this was really good.

00:04:08 ◼   ► It was 10 minutes, not, you know, do or die, but it's worth checking out.

00:04:12 ◼   ► So if you have a Vision Pro or have access to one, a friend with one, or whatever the case may be, go have a look.

00:04:16 ◼   ► Man vs. Beast.

00:04:17 ◼   ► We'll put a link in the show notes.

00:04:18 ◼   ► I don't remember where this came from.

00:04:22 ◼   ► I don't think this was an original composition of mine.

00:04:24 ◼   ► But last episode, we were talking about my LED project, which is sort of kind of but not really on hold.

00:04:29 ◼   ► I think I'm going to have more news about that in the future, but not tonight.

00:04:32 ◼   ► But that being said, I referred to the fact that the Historical Commission had denied my application for modifying my home.

00:04:39 ◼   ► And there were several people that wrote in.

00:04:42 ◼   ► John T. wrote, Casey mentioned a historical commission had prevented him from adding three LEDs to an existing blanked-off outlet.

00:04:48 ◼   ► Did he also mention his house is late 1990s?

00:04:51 ◼   ► I'm confused about the historical commission involvement.

00:04:53 ◼   ► To be absolutely clear, I'm talking about Aaron.

00:04:55 ◼   ► I was trying to be kind about it, but I'm talking about Aaron.

00:04:57 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:04:57 ◼   ► This is a long-running joke on our show that the historical commission approving things in our house is just our spouses being okay with them in our house.

00:05:04 ◼   ► In fact, I might have stolen it from you, Marco.

00:05:06 ◼   ► I think you might have been the genesis.

00:05:07 ◼   ► No, you totally did.

00:05:08 ◼   ► It was a Marco thing.

00:05:09 ◼   ► It was originally when he was talking about potentially getting a low-profile Marantz receiver for his entertainment center, I believe.

00:05:15 ◼   ► How do you remember that?

00:05:17 ◼   ► Well, that's where it came from.

00:05:18 ◼   ► I assumed you remembered too.

00:05:19 ◼   ► Because John listens to the show.

00:05:21 ◼   ► Yeah, because John listens back to the show.

00:05:23 ◼   ► That's the difference.

00:05:23 ◼   ► Yeah, no.

00:05:24 ◼   ► It was many, many years ago.

00:05:26 ◼   ► If Marco got it from somewhere, I don't know.

00:05:29 ◼   ► But I heard it first from Marco referring to his wife as the historical commission because she had specific demands about what kind of electronic products were and were not allowed in the entertainment center.

00:05:39 ◼   ► And Casey has adopted that and then quickly forgot where it came from.

00:05:41 ◼   ► So, no, there is no actual historical commission.

00:05:44 ◼   ► Oh, no.

00:05:44 ◼   ► I redeemed myself.

00:05:45 ◼   ► Well, I halfway redeemed myself.

00:05:47 ◼   ► Thank you very much.

00:05:48 ◼   ► All right.

00:05:48 ◼   ► I award myself half credit.

00:05:49 ◼   ► And actually, sort of tangentially speaking of, my terminal has shipped.

00:05:54 ◼   ► I will state for the record that Marco paid with his own dollars for his terminal, but the terminal people were kind and offered to send John and myself units.

00:06:03 ◼   ► So, I did not pay for this.

00:06:04 ◼   ► We will probably talk about it in the future on the show.

00:06:07 ◼   ► But mine has shipped.

00:06:08 ◼   ► And I think, I believe I told Aaron that there is something forthcoming, but I haven't said too much about it.

00:06:15 ◼   ► I think I described it as an auto-updating version of the calendar that we have on our refrigerator.

00:06:19 ◼   ► So, I'm curious to hear what the historical commission has to say about this when it shows up.

00:06:25 ◼   ► We shall see.

00:06:26 ◼   ► All right.

00:06:27 ◼   ► We had talked.

00:06:28 ◼   ► I think I had brought this up last episode when we were talking about Sonos.

00:06:31 ◼   ► I had parroted something that I had heard many, many, many times.

00:06:34 ◼   ► But I couldn't tell you where I first began hearing this.

00:06:37 ◼   ► And honestly, it might have been Reddit, which is not a good sign.

00:06:40 ◼   ► But I had said that in the new version of the app, which I had colloquially dubbed S3,

00:06:46 ◼   ► the volume changes, when you change volume in a speaker, it has to round-trip across the internet

00:06:51 ◼   ► to some central warehouse at Sonos or something like that,

00:06:53 ◼   ► and then come back to your house in order to affect your speakers.

00:06:56 ◼   ► An anonymous listener wrote in and said,

00:06:59 ◼   ► that's a rumor that won't die because it feels right to people when they see that volume changes are slow.

00:07:03 ◼   ► There are things that do go through cloud services that didn't before,

00:07:06 ◼   ► like account management and some other stuff, but not volume.

00:07:08 ◼   ► So, I am dead wrong about that, apparently.

00:07:10 ◼   ► I tried to save you last show, but I couldn't definitively do it.

00:07:13 ◼   ► So, I just waved you off as best I could.

00:07:15 ◼   ► But now we have a definitive answer.

00:07:16 ◼   ► Volume changes do not go to a server and back.

00:07:19 ◼   ► Then they should be faster.

00:07:20 ◼   ► But that's neither here nor there.

00:07:21 ◼   ► I actually did also get an explanation of why they're slow, and it's not satisfying.

00:07:25 ◼   ► But suffice it to say, there's not a server involved.

00:07:27 ◼   ► So, this was sent privately to you then?

00:07:30 ◼   ► Because I don't remember seeing this feedback.

00:07:31 ◼   ► Okay.

00:07:32 ◼   ► Well, feel free to privately forward that to me, because I'm curious now.

00:07:35 ◼   ► But that's okay.

00:07:37 ◼   ► Deep Seek Censorship.

00:07:39 ◼   ► Matthew Cave writes,

00:07:40 ◼   ► It's not really running locally that removes the Chinese political correctness.

00:07:44 ◼   ► It's running a sufficiently abbreviated model.

00:07:46 ◼   ► The models that you would run locally have reduced numbers of parameters.

00:07:49 ◼   ► I can only assume that the rules enforced by the Chinese government have sufficiently low

00:07:53 ◼   ► priority that they are eliminated somewhere between the 70 billion parameter model and the

00:07:56 ◼   ► 32 billion parameter model.

00:07:58 ◼   ► I am not an expert on how these things work.

00:08:00 ◼   ► My vocabulary is very likely wrong.

00:08:02 ◼   ► And pausing there for a second, I'm not an expert either, but I also don't, I'm not sure

00:08:07 ◼   ► that reducing the number of parameters would so radically change the behavior.

00:08:10 ◼   ► But anyway, continuing.

00:08:11 ◼   ► Continuing from Matthew, if you ask the 32 billion parameter model politically sensitive

00:08:16 ◼   ► questions, you get remarkably astute and well-thought-out answers.

00:08:19 ◼   ► If you supply the exact same prompt to the 70 billion parameter model, you get the roadblocks.

00:08:23 ◼   ► Quote, Taiwan has always been an inalienable part of China.

00:08:26 ◼   ► Quote, or let's talk about something else.

00:08:28 ◼   ► Or we have always been at war with East Asia.

00:08:31 ◼   ► I don't know who looks like Winnie the Pooh.

00:08:32 ◼   ► For local, right?

00:08:34 ◼   ► For local machines with sufficient RAM, I found the 32 billion model to be or to run acceptably

00:08:39 ◼   ► fast and to be surprisingly complete.

00:08:41 ◼   ► 70 billion is even more capable if you have the RAM to run it, but is significantly slower

00:08:45 ◼   ► and, as mentioned, has the roadblocks in place.

00:08:48 ◼   ► You can also spot answers that are short-circuited by one of these override-type rules as they have

00:08:52 ◼   ► no think blocks, or rather, the think block is completely empty.

00:08:57 ◼   ► This is the block at the top of most answers that exposes the quote-unquote reasoning of the model.

00:09:02 ◼   ► For the overrides, it's a hard-coded answer.

00:09:04 ◼   ► There's no reasoning.

00:09:05 ◼   ► Again, these overrides seem to be eliminated in the 32 billion model and smaller.

00:09:09 ◼   ► So I confirmed with Matthew that he did actually run both the 32 billion and the 70 billion locally

00:09:14 ◼   ► to discover this, and it seems super weird to me because, like, Daniel Jalkin, I guess,

00:09:17 ◼   ► ran the 32 billion one and he's like, hey, if you run it locally, you don't get these things.

00:09:20 ◼   ► And I was surmising that it was a layer they put on the server, but I guess somehow it's

00:09:24 ◼   ► in the 70 billion parameter model, but not the 32.

00:09:28 ◼   ► It's so weird.

00:09:29 ◼   ► Like, again, I don't—trying to censor this is a losing battle, but, you know, they'll—they

00:09:35 ◼   ► do what they can, but it's just weird that they're distributing the weights and one—the

00:09:39 ◼   ► smaller set of them either doesn't have the political censorship or it's, like, malfunctioning,

00:09:44 ◼   ► but the big one does.

00:09:45 ◼   ► Anyway, there you have it.

00:09:47 ◼   ► Censorship.

00:09:47 ◼   ► It's weird and futile.

00:09:49 ◼   ► And although people will say, that's what everyone said about the Great Wall of China—like,

00:09:53 ◼   ► not the actual wall, but the Great Firewall of China—like, it would be impossible to keep

00:09:56 ◼   ► the internet out and somehow the Chinese government does it.

00:09:58 ◼   ► Eh, I guess they sort of kind of do.

00:10:00 ◼   ► But anyway, they're trying to do the same with their model, but when you run it locally,

00:10:04 ◼   ► I guess if you use the smaller model, you don't have to deal with that.

00:10:07 ◼   ► We got a bunch of feedback with regard to Marco's question about Docker, which I was very—I don't

00:10:12 ◼   ► think I said this on the show last week, but I was very proud of you for asking that question.

00:10:14 ◼   ► And even if you ignore all of the feedback, I'm pleased that you're investigating, so that

00:10:19 ◼   ► makes me happy.

00:10:19 ◼   ► But Brian Ryder writes in, you can indeed use Rosetta on Docker on Apple Silicon.

00:10:24 ◼   ► There are some gotchas.

00:10:25 ◼   ► Some technologies that themselves use a VM will crash, specifically some versions of Lua and

00:10:30 ◼   ► I think LaTeX stuff.

00:10:31 ◼   ► Also, older versions of SQL Server on Linux.

00:10:34 ◼   ► However, by and large, the whole thing works astonishingly well.

00:10:37 ◼   ► Consider the horrifying case of SQL Server on x86-64 Linux on Docker on an M3 Max.

00:10:42 ◼   ► This is notably faster than my sad and idle Intel i9 dev machine, with no downside that

00:10:47 ◼   ► I have experienced.

00:10:48 ◼   ► Under the hood, there's a very minimal Linux virtual machine running in the hypervisor.framework

00:10:54 ◼   ► that hosts the Docker stuff, and a bunch of magic to obscure this.

00:10:57 ◼   ► You may need to twiddle resources allocated to the VM to make stuff go, such as overcoming

00:11:01 ◼   ► the Linux OOM killer, or for performance reasons.

00:11:04 ◼   ► Yeah, there's something a bunch of people wrote in, probably either Windows or Linux

00:11:09 ◼   ► users, saying, Docker is not a VM.

00:11:11 ◼   ► There's no VM involved.

00:11:13 ◼   ► That's true if you're running Docker on Linux.

00:11:15 ◼   ► Like, that's part of the magic of it, is it just kind of, like, exposes the actual Linux

00:11:19 ◼   ► kernel you're running on, but fences off the processes, so they think they're in their own

00:11:22 ◼   ► machine and can't see other stuff, yada, yada.

00:11:24 ◼   ► But of course, when you're on the Mac, even though it's Unix-based, it's not Linux.

00:11:28 ◼   ► So, Docker on the Mac does have to run a, I think, just one minimal Linux

00:11:34 ◼   ► VM under the covers, and then it runs all the containers on top of that VM.

00:11:38 ◼   ► In practice, it's all transparent.

00:11:40 ◼   ► You don't have to worry about this.

00:11:41 ◼   ► But it's just an implementation detail, because macOS may be officially certified Unix, if

00:11:46 ◼   ► they ever, if they still have that certification.

00:11:48 ◼   ► But Linux is not Unix, and GNU is not Unix.

00:11:52 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:11:52 ◼   ► Lots of recursive acronyms in there.

00:11:54 ◼   ► But yeah, Linux is a little bit different.

00:11:56 ◼   ► Indeed.

00:11:56 ◼   ► Then, additionally from Brian Ryder, with regard to Docker versus something else, having used

00:12:04 ◼   ► Docker Desktop for several years, I recently switched to OrbStack.

00:12:08 ◼   ► And quick aside, we've heard a lot of feedback with regard to OrbStack, all positive.

00:12:12 ◼   ► Literally everyone has told us.

00:12:14 ◼   ► And I don't mean everyone who's written in, or everyone who, you know, we heard from this

00:12:19 ◼   ► week.

00:12:19 ◼   ► I literally mean everyone in the world has told us about OrbStack.

00:12:22 ◼   ► So, thank you, literally everyone.

00:12:24 ◼   ► And by the way, we did discuss OrbStack on a show a while ago.

00:12:28 ◼   ► I remember, because I tried it, because I think I had mentioned Docker ages ago, and someone

00:12:31 ◼   ► said, you should try OrbStack.

00:12:32 ◼   ► So, I did.

00:12:33 ◼   ► And it was fine.

00:12:35 ◼   ► At the time, I decided it was not better enough for me to forego Docker Desktop, but

00:12:41 ◼   ► I'm sure it's gotten better since then.

00:12:43 ◼   ► And yeah, lots of people recommend it.

00:12:44 ◼   ► Man who compiles from source is unimpressed with a layer on top of Docker.

00:12:48 ◼   ► That's not why.

00:12:49 ◼   ► I'll finish reading Brian's feedback, and I'll explain my reasoning.

00:12:51 ◼   ► All right.

00:12:52 ◼   ► Let me just start it over, since we got ourselves sidetracked.

00:12:54 ◼   ► So, having used Docker Desktop for several years, I recently switched to OrbStack.

00:12:57 ◼   ► While not free, it is much more well-integrated with the macOS experience in Finder.

00:13:01 ◼   ► It automatically creates an HTTPS reverse proxy for any container that listens on TCP port 80.

00:13:05 ◼   ► It has a very useful debug shell for containers.

00:13:08 ◼   ► And finally, it has a way to pick one or more Linux distributions to integrate with your shell

00:13:13 ◼   ► in the style of Windows subsystem for Linux.

00:13:15 ◼   ► While I'm using Mac ports, this feature is probably a viable drop-in replacement for Mac ports

00:13:20 ◼   ► or homebrew to give you your preferred full Linux environment for ad hoc CLI stuff instead

00:13:25 ◼   ► of installing native Unix packages on macOS.

00:13:27 ◼   ► Yeah, I think the idea is, like, instead of, you know, like I said, instead of installing,

00:13:31 ◼   ► like, whatever your favorite command line tool is using some Mac package manager, you

00:13:37 ◼   ► can install it inside Linux and just use it from your Mac command line as if it was installed

00:13:42 ◼   ► on your Mac.

00:13:42 ◼   ► But it's not.

00:13:43 ◼   ► It's all, all the evil is confined to containers.

00:13:46 ◼   ► That's something you'll see with Docker.

00:13:48 ◼   ► We always talk about, like, oh, Docker, it's like a little, a little virtual machine or,

00:13:51 ◼   ► you know, a little imaginary machine, if not an actual virtual machine.

00:13:56 ◼   ► But you can distribute single command line things as Docker containers.

00:14:00 ◼   ► They're lightweight enough where you might say, like, oh, I don't want you to have to figure

00:14:04 ◼   ► out all the Python crap that you have to have installed to run my Python script.

00:14:07 ◼   ► So I've just made a container with my little Python script and all the stuff, and you can

00:14:11 ◼   ► run it as a command, and it will run it from the container.

00:14:15 ◼   ► The reason I didn't go with OrbStack back in the day was, I mean, the features that it

00:14:20 ◼   ► had, like this way of running commands inside the Linux thing or integration with the Mac,

00:14:25 ◼   ► with the automatic listening and stuff like that, I didn't need at that point because I'd

00:14:29 ◼   ► already done all that with plain old Docker.

00:14:31 ◼   ► And my philosophy was with stuff like this is, like, when possible, stick to the official

00:14:37 ◼   ► thing.

00:14:38 ◼   ► Because if I ever have any problems, which I have occasionally, when I, like, Google

00:14:42 ◼   ► for an answer, it's easier to find answers for just plain Docker or the official Docker

00:14:47 ◼   ► on macOS than it is to find answers for OrbStack.

00:14:50 ◼   ► It's just one more layer between me and figuring out what's broken, right?

00:14:54 ◼   ► And like I said, I'd already done everything I needed to do with Docker Desktop.

00:14:59 ◼   ► And I haven't regretted that decision.

00:15:01 ◼   ► I've just, you know, Docker Desktop updates frequently.

00:15:03 ◼   ► And, you know, it's presumably they're fixing bugs and improving performance.

00:15:06 ◼   ► And sort of, as far as I'm concerned, I just run the auto updates and it just continues

00:15:09 ◼   ► to work.

00:15:09 ◼   ► So I've been fine with it.

00:15:11 ◼   ► But just please know that everyone who has tried OrbStack seems to love it, except for

00:15:14 ◼   ► me.

00:15:14 ◼   ► Then you had mentioned, somewhat offhandedly, John, sending email from Docker.

00:15:21 ◼   ► And we got some fascinating feedback.

00:15:23 ◼   ► I had no idea this was a thing, although it makes perfect sense.

00:15:25 ◼   ► We got a triplet or a trio of different pieces or different suggestions.

00:15:30 ◼   ► Matt Barlow writes, last episode, John mentioned not having worked out how to send emails

00:15:34 ◼   ► from his Docker setup yet.

00:15:35 ◼   ► I've found MailHog to be a great way to deal with this.

00:15:37 ◼   ► And we'll put a link in the show notes.

00:15:38 ◼   ► Stand it up alongside your PHP and MySQL containers.

00:15:41 ◼   ► And then you can send email to it as if it were any other SMTP server.

00:15:45 ◼   ► It then exposes a Gmail-style web front end to view the emails.

00:15:47 ◼   ► Very cool stuff.

00:15:49 ◼   ► John Caruso writes, I've been using a tool called MailPit.

00:15:52 ◼   ► And again, put a link in the show notes for when I don't actually want to send mail to

00:15:56 ◼   ► anyone.

00:15:56 ◼   ► But I do want to verify that it's still working and looks correct.

00:15:59 ◼   ► Finally, Yves Severano writes, for mail testing, I use mail dev, excuse me, I use a mail dev

00:16:04 ◼   ► container in my Docker Compose stack.

00:16:07 ◼   ► Link in the show notes.

00:16:08 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:16:09 ◼   ► These are all ways to essentially not send mail.

00:16:11 ◼   ► Like it just, you want to send somewhere so you can look at it, but it's not actually

00:16:15 ◼   ► sending email to an address.

00:16:16 ◼   ► So if you send mail to like, you know, johnsmith at gmail.com, whatever you send the two address

00:16:22 ◼   ► to, it's all going to go into the MailHog or the MailPit or whatever.

00:16:26 ◼   ► Like it's not going to actually go to johnsmith at gmail, right?

00:16:28 ◼   ► It's going to go to these, and then you can just look at it using a web interface.

00:16:32 ◼   ► Or you can do what I did and just print it to the error log and look at it there.

00:16:35 ◼   ► Very John answer.

00:16:38 ◼   ► Bram Esposito writes, the easiest way to have configurable and reproducible environments

00:16:43 ◼   ► for PHP is using ddev.com.

00:16:45 ◼   ► It runs on top of OrbStack, there we go, and is very easy to extend.

00:16:49 ◼   ► It has HTTPS certificates, networking mail pit, and all pre-configured so you can just start

00:16:53 ◼   ► using it right away.

00:16:55 ◼   ► Sounds like a good fit for what Marco's looking for, not having tried it myself.

00:16:58 ◼   ► Well, so many people have also pointed out, which I believe you also did, Casey, that, you

00:17:05 ◼   ► know, to go fully into the Docker lifestyle, I would really want to have the advantage of

00:17:09 ◼   ► also running these same containers on the servers.

00:17:11 ◼   ► And so I think the more I dive into like these specialized tools, and to be fair, I don't know

00:17:17 ◼   ► if this tool does this or not, but like I don't want necessarily something that is just

00:17:20 ◼   ► going to optimize for a dev environment or just going to optimize for like Mac-ness.

00:17:24 ◼   ► What I want ideally is closer to what John was saying of like as much of like the big official

00:17:30 ◼   ► tools as possible.

00:17:31 ◼   ► And ideally, if I can ship the same dock to the server container, if I can ship the same

00:17:38 ◼   ► thing to the servers, then that's really interesting to me.

00:17:41 ◼   ► Here's the thing, like I said last time, the whole idea behind Docker is that, you know,

00:17:45 ◼   ► if it works on my computer, fine, we'll ship your computer.

00:17:47 ◼   ► Like that's what we'll run is how the place here you develop it is the thing that we deploy

00:17:50 ◼   ► it on.

00:17:52 ◼   ► But I think what might appeal to you, Marco, is the easier, more straightforward debuggability

00:18:00 ◼   ► of a plain production server that you presumably already have.

00:18:03 ◼   ► You know what I mean?

00:18:04 ◼   ► You're not starting from zero, right?

00:18:05 ◼   ► If there's something wrong in your production server, the ability to hop in there and just

00:18:08 ◼   ► mess around and do stuff without having to worry about Docker is probably more straightforward

00:18:14 ◼   ► to you than learning how to correctly hop into a Docker container and figure out what it's

00:18:18 ◼   ► like.

00:18:18 ◼   ► It's again, it's another layer of stuff to deal with.

00:18:20 ◼   ► If you were starting from zero, I'd say, well, then, and you're willing to learn Docker

00:18:23 ◼   ► stuff, then fine.

00:18:23 ◼   ► But I think probably the path of least resistance is to leave your production servers the way

00:18:29 ◼   ► they are, just plain old servers with files in them that you know how to deal with.

00:18:33 ◼   ► And if there's a problem there, you can tackle it the way you always do.

00:18:36 ◼   ► And then make your dev environment look as much like that as possible.

00:18:40 ◼   ► And no, you don't get the advantage of like, well, I'm sure it's exactly the same because

00:18:44 ◼   ► my dev environment is my production environment.

00:18:46 ◼   ► It's just my container and I run my container and that is a better way to do it overall.

00:18:49 ◼   ► But the specific situation you're in where you already have a production server that's

00:18:54 ◼   ► already not Docker, it's not that hard to make a Docker container that looks pretty much exactly

00:18:59 ◼   ► like that.

00:18:59 ◼   ► That still gives you the easy debug ability.

00:19:02 ◼   ► And by the way, OrbStack mentioned they have like a debug shell or whatever.

00:19:04 ◼   ► That's stuff like that is stuff that the official Docker desktop has added recently.

00:19:08 ◼   ► What they mean is like, you don't have to install all your debug tools in your Docker container

00:19:13 ◼   ► because it's like, what should I put in my container?

00:19:14 ◼   ► Well, I want Emacs in there and I want S-Trace and I want it.

00:19:17 ◼   ► Like you think like, I need all these tools, but then you're making your container bigger

00:19:20 ◼   ► and bigger because they're just like, when I'm in that container, I want all my stuff.

00:19:23 ◼   ► Well, you can make the container very slim and then also make it so you can hop into the

00:19:28 ◼   ► container and debug it and bring with you a bundle of your debugging tools just when you're

00:19:31 ◼   ► debugging it.

00:19:33 ◼   ► Um, but if this sounds complicated to you, this is why I'm suggesting it's probably less

00:19:38 ◼   ► fraught, especially for production stuff.

00:19:41 ◼   ► If you're not going to, if you're not totally on board of learning this to just leave your

00:19:44 ◼   ► production server the way it is, emulate it, like, you know, make a dev environment that

00:19:49 ◼   ► matches that and then just do it that way.

00:19:52 ◼   ► So your Mac stays clean.

00:19:53 ◼   ► You have a repeatable dev environment.

00:19:55 ◼   ► Your dev environment is exactly matched to your server.

00:19:57 ◼   ► You control both of them because the server is not going to update to PHP 8 unless you do it.

00:20:01 ◼   ► And if you update the server to PHP 8, you can update your container to PHP 8.

00:20:04 ◼   ► Now, if you're willing to go on board and say, I'm going to do Docker everywhere, you can

00:20:09 ◼   ► do that, but just know that there is a learning curve to how do I run and debug Docker containers

00:20:15 ◼   ► versus how do I run and debug a bunch of files in the file system on my Linux server, which

00:20:19 ◼   ► is, I'm assuming, what you're used to.

00:20:20 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:20:21 ◼   ► Finally, with regard to Docker, Dvault Renecki writes, if you're only going to use Docker

00:20:27 ◼   ► images for development, you should have a look at development containers.

00:20:30 ◼   ► or dev containers, which is at the URL containers.dev because yeah.

00:20:35 ◼   ► Anyways, it adds a JSON file to your repo, but the best part is the integration with many

00:20:40 ◼   ► editors.

00:20:40 ◼   ► I use Visual Studio Code and it works great or use the CLI tool.

00:20:43 ◼   ► The editor will detect the dev container setup in your repo, build the images, link up the

00:20:47 ◼   ► source files on your Mac to the container, map the ports, run all your setup commands, scripts,

00:20:52 ◼   ► et cetera, and all of that.

00:20:53 ◼   ► My repos are all set up with this.

00:20:55 ◼   ► On a brand new Mac, I simply need Docker desktop installed.

00:20:57 ◼   ► And then when I open the local folder or repo in my locally running editor, it builds and

00:21:00 ◼   ► runs everything.

00:21:01 ◼   ► So slick.

00:21:02 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:21:02 ◼   ► There's lots of these things that are integrated with like Visual Studio Code in particular,

00:21:06 ◼   ► which again, is not going to help Marco if he wants to use TextMate or whatever, but lots

00:21:09 ◼   ► of these things are like, uh, you know, we'll put some files in there and your IDE will see

00:21:14 ◼   ► the files and figure out that it wants to run stuff in containers and run them all.

00:21:17 ◼   ► We didn't mention this last time, but like people keep mentioning Docker Compose, which

00:21:20 ◼   ► is a way to make like a set of Docker containers that together make your app because you've

00:21:26 ◼   ► got one for a database server and one for a load balancer and one like you're trying to

00:21:29 ◼   ► like, you know, if you're going to deploy seven different containers to production because

00:21:33 ◼   ► you have all these different components, you also have them as containers on your dev machine

00:21:36 ◼   ► and you don't want to kind of orchestrate them all yourself.

00:21:38 ◼   ► So you can bring them all up as a unit.

00:21:41 ◼   ► So they're all talking to each other, which is another complication that I think I don't

00:21:46 ◼   ► I don't know how like overcast web situation goes, but the ATP web stuff is so simple that

00:21:50 ◼   ► everything is in one container and I don't have to deal with this at all, but know that

00:21:53 ◼   ► Docker can do it with Docker Compose and there are other systems that can also run containers

00:21:58 ◼   ► that get increasingly complicated.

00:21:59 ◼   ► But yeah, a lot of people just assumed like, well, if you've got a web server and database,

00:22:03 ◼   ► surely you're running two different containers.

00:22:05 ◼   ► Nope.

00:22:05 ◼   ► They're both in the same container.

00:22:06 ◼   ► They're also both in the same machine.

00:22:08 ◼   ► Where do you think the ATP server setup script came from?

00:22:11 ◼   ► Yeah, I know.

00:22:12 ◼   ► I'm just saying like, everyone assumes that like everything is like big fancy production

00:22:17 ◼   ► where you've got a fleet of servers and I've been in that world, but in, you know, to run,

00:22:22 ◼   ► for example, ATP.fm, you don't need that, right?

00:22:26 ◼   ► To run rovercast.fm, maybe you do.

00:22:28 ◼   ► You tell me, but like...

00:22:30 ◼   ► I mean, yeah, I have, I usually maintain like eight to 12 web servers, but it's, they're

00:22:35 ◼   ► all each very simple and...

00:22:36 ◼   ► They're all, yeah, they're all simple, yeah.

00:22:38 ◼   ► It's like the complication of quote-unquote real production web development at scale

00:22:45 ◼   ► is so, it's huge.

00:22:48 ◼   ► There's just a huge amount to know and do.

00:22:50 ◼   ► It's extremely complicated.

00:22:53 ◼   ► And I think people who are in that world think like, well, surely for ATP.fm, you're running

00:22:57 ◼   ► Kubernetes and it's like, no, not like it's just nothing.

00:23:01 ◼   ► Whatever you think we're doing, it's not that.

00:23:03 ◼   ► You don't need to do that for simple scenarios.

00:23:06 ◼   ► And it really does simplify things like the amount of stuff I no longer have to worry about working

00:23:11 ◼   ► on a tiny website versus the massive one that I was working on at my jobby job is just so

00:23:16 ◼   ► refreshing and so nice.

00:23:17 ◼   ► And I would not give that up in exchange for being able to say that I use some cool new technology

00:23:22 ◼   ► and open up a fleet of Docker containers that all coordinate with each other to run what is

00:23:27 ◼   ► mostly a static website.

00:23:28 ◼   ► All right.

00:23:31 ◼   ► Unrelated to Docker, we have feedback with regard to Marco's mostly offhanded comment about your TV

00:23:37 ◼   ► audio being completely out of sync.

00:23:39 ◼   ► We have a listener named Marco Arment who wrote,

00:23:42 ◼   ► If you're having trouble with audio sync from your Apple TV to an external soundbar sound system,

00:23:46 ◼   ► turn on the match format and match dynamic range in the Apple TV's video settings.

00:23:50 ◼   ► I don't know why this makes a difference on my LG C7 OLED, but it really, really does.

00:23:54 ◼   ► In particular, the Apple TV slash LG C7 combo appears to have different audio output delayed

00:23:59 ◼   ► depending on whether the output is Dolby Vision, HDR or not.

00:24:02 ◼   ► So if you calibrate it for one format, it'll be wrong for the other.

00:24:05 ◼   ► Except if the Apple TV is set to match content, match dynamic range,

00:24:10 ◼   ► which for whatever reason suddenly makes the sync perfect.

00:24:12 ◼   ► Yeah, this has been driving me nuts.

00:24:15 ◼   ► Ever since we upgraded, when we moved to Long Island,

00:24:19 ◼   ► we upgraded that TV sound system from a Sonos amp with giant floor speakers

00:24:25 ◼   ► that I have since given away to other family members.

00:24:28 ◼   ► Wanted like a smaller setup here.

00:24:31 ◼   ► So I, and I got a Sonos Arc soundbar and it has been a nightmare trying to get the Sonos Arc soundbar

00:24:40 ◼   ► to line up with anything that the TV was doing with audio.

00:24:43 ◼   ► And I've, and I mentioned in the past, like I was, I'd asked John about apps to look at TV audio sync and stuff.

00:24:49 ◼   ► And no matter what I did, I could not, and I tried the built-in Apple TV wireless audio sync thing.

00:24:55 ◼   ► I tried the function built into the TV itself.

00:24:57 ◼   ► I tried using both in combination with each other.

00:25:00 ◼   ► And nothing I did could get the audio sync right on every video format.

00:25:05 ◼   ► So instead, a few days ago, I tried that setting.

00:25:11 ◼   ► And I still couldn't get it right on the Sonos Arc.

00:25:14 ◼   ► I still, no matter what, I could not get it right.

00:25:18 ◼   ► And I thought, you know, in the old setup from the old house, I never had sync problems.

00:25:23 ◼   ► Let me try bringing out that Sonos amp from my closet and just plug in some regular passive speakers to it and see if that works.

00:25:34 ◼   ► And with those settings, and only with those settings, it is flawless.

00:25:39 ◼   ► I'm surprised you have such problems with the Arc.

00:25:42 ◼   ► Because my Arc, I think I did have to tweak the delay once in settings.

00:25:47 ◼   ► But regardless of if I'm using the Switch or the Apple TV, it's always been consistent for me.

00:25:54 ◼   ► Now, I have an LG, shoot, it's a C3, no, C9, C9.

00:26:00 ◼   ► It was a 2019 model.

00:26:01 ◼   ► Yeah, yours was two years newer.

00:26:02 ◼   ► Yeah, so maybe, like, the problem is, like, every combination of, like, input device and TV could have different sync problems and soundbar.

00:26:11 ◼   ► Like, all three of those are all, and maybe we'll get to this later, like, all three of those are trying to give you one coherent experience with a video and audio lineup.

00:26:20 ◼   ► And it's a hard problem, especially with the complexity of all these devices these days and all the different processing they're doing at all the different stages.

00:26:26 ◼   ► But the result was I could not get the Sonos Arc to be in sync with my oldish LG TV at all.

00:26:34 ◼   ► Whereas the Sonos amp, which is a kind of a simpler product, the Sonos amp did it just fine.

00:26:41 ◼   ► And it's flawless with speakers, with passive speakers, only with those settings turned on.

00:26:47 ◼   ► So there we go.

00:26:49 ◼   ► Yeah, as I said on the Mastodon when you post this, you should have those settings on anyway because I highly recommend them because they mean that your television is showing the content the way the content is.

00:26:58 ◼   ► So if the content is 24 frames per second, your television should be refreshing at some multiple of 24 frames per second and not converting it from 24 to 30 so then it can display it at 60 or whatever.

00:27:07 ◼   ► Basically, you don't want your TV messing with it, right?

00:27:09 ◼   ► If the content is HDR, your TV should be HDR.

00:27:12 ◼   ► If the content is SDR, your TV should be SDR.

00:27:14 ◼   ► And that's what match content and match dynamic range in those settings do.

00:27:18 ◼   ► Now, the reason people don't like those settings, as everyone said when they replied to you on Mastodon, is because they cause sometimes horrendous delays when changing from one piece of video to another or when changing from video back to the menu.

00:27:32 ◼   ► Because no matter what you pick, like your Apple TV menu to be in, and you can pick, like I want my menus to be in, you know, 30 frames per second, HDR, don't be like that's just like, what do you want the way you see the little squares?

00:27:42 ◼   ► What do you want that to be shown in whatever you pick for that?

00:27:44 ◼   ► If you watch anything that is not exactly that, your TV's like, oh, time to match dynamic range, time to match content, and it makes your screen black, and you have to count one, two, three, however many seconds, then it comes back.

00:27:56 ◼   ► And people are particularly annoyed, like, with YouTube, like, I don't know if it's a YouTube app that's built into TVs or the official YouTube app on Apple TV.

00:28:03 ◼   ► But if you're watching YouTube TV stuff, whenever there's an ad, the ad might be in a different dynamic range and frame rate than the thing you're watching.

00:28:12 ◼   ► So every time there's an ad, your screen goes black, and you wait a few seconds, and it shows the ad, and then you wait a second, and it's just, it's untenable, right?

00:28:18 ◼   ► Back in November of 2022, on ATP episode 507, we talked about, I think, for the first time, QMS.

00:28:26 ◼   ► John's bringing receipts, y'all.

00:28:27 ◼   ► Yeah, QMS or quick media switching, which was supposed to solve this, but at the time, it wasn't out on a lot of televisions.

00:28:34 ◼   ► And also, this technology only helps you when the thing that changes is just frame rate.

00:28:40 ◼   ► So if you change from SDR to HDR, you're still screwed.

00:28:42 ◼   ► But if you're just changing frame rate, it uses the televisions of VRR variable or refresh rate capability to not black out the screen and wait five seconds.

00:28:51 ◼   ► And finally, someone posted, someone named Knit on Mastodon posted a YouTube video of quick media switching in action on their TV.

00:28:59 ◼   ► It's great.

00:29:00 ◼   ► Totally seamless.

00:29:01 ◼   ► There's no blackout.

00:29:02 ◼   ► It's real nice.

00:29:03 ◼   ► I wish it did it for SDR versus HDR, too, but I would love to have this.

00:29:08 ◼   ► I don't think it's on my TV.

00:29:09 ◼   ► I don't think there's been a firmware update or whatever.

00:29:11 ◼   ► I just deal with the blackouts just because, like, for me, I switch content way less frequently than I watch content.

00:29:18 ◼   ► So, you know, to watch a thing, yes, I have to watch a black screen.

00:29:22 ◼   ► I wait.

00:29:23 ◼   ► The thing comes on.

00:29:23 ◼   ► But then I watch a show for an hour or half an hour.

00:29:25 ◼   ► Right.

00:29:26 ◼   ► So that three seconds of switching and blackness is worth it for the hour I get to watch the show correctly in the correct format.

00:29:32 ◼   ► Other people have different tradeoffs, especially if you're watching YouTube TV and has ads in it that's driving you up a wall.

00:29:36 ◼   ► So I believe, speaking on both these issues, I believe the new version of HDMI has a bunch of new features related to, certainly related to trying to wrangle audio sync better than the current standards do.

00:29:51 ◼   ► Like, you'll see on lots of devices, they have some feature that says automatically manage audio sync using, like, HDMI 2.1s or 2.0s features.

00:29:58 ◼   ► Those don't always work that well, as Marco found out.

00:30:01 ◼   ► Hopefully, whatever they're doing in HDMI 2.2 does a better job of that.

00:30:05 ◼   ► And then the other thing is, I don't know if HDMI 2.2 brings anything to help with quick media switching or if it enhances it to deal with HDR versus SDR.

00:30:15 ◼   ► But at the very least, if you were to buy a TV today, chances are very good that it will support quick media switching and will save you at least from frame rate switches.

00:30:24 ◼   ► This week, we are brought to you by Wild Grain.

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00:30:32 ◼   ► Wild Grain's boxes are fully customizable to your tastes and dietary restrictions.

00:30:36 ◼   ► So they have their classic variety box, which is what we got sent, but they also have a gluten-free box.

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00:30:52 ◼   ► Like I said, they sent us a whole bunch of stuff, and we've been working through it over the last few weeks.

00:30:57 ◼   ► Yesterday, we had some tonarelli, which I guess is like spaghetti or something.

00:31:02 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:31:04 ◼   ► I'm sorry, Italians, but it was very good.

00:31:05 ◼   ► And we had it with meatballs, and I loved it.

00:31:07 ◼   ► And then this morning, Aaron was kind enough to surprise the family by baking some croissants in the toaster oven while we were all sleeping.

00:31:15 ◼   ► So we came down to this delicious smell and were treated to these incredibly delicious, warm croissants.

00:31:22 ◼   ► I got to tell you, in my personal opinion, you know when a croissant is good, when it's super flaky, just ridiculously flaky.

00:31:30 ◼   ► And that's what these were.

00:31:31 ◼   ► They were super-duper flaky and delicious.

00:31:33 ◼   ► Declan put his favorite hazelnut chocolate spread on it and was in love.

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00:32:14 ◼   ► Or you can just use promo code ATP at checkout.

00:32:16 ◼   ► Thank you to Wild Green for sponsoring the show.

00:32:18 ◼   ► May I invite you to join me on this endeavor?

00:32:25 ◼   ► Yeah, so there is a new app called Apple Invites, obviously written by Apple.

00:32:31 ◼   ► And let me read to you from Apple's official announcement.

00:32:35 ◼   ► Or excuse me, is this from The Verge?

00:32:37 ◼   ► What is the providence for this, John?

00:32:38 ◼   ► I think that's the press release, right?

00:32:41 ◼   ► Is it the press release?

00:32:42 ◼   ► All right.

00:32:42 ◼   ► Moving on.

00:32:44 ◼   ► All right.

00:32:44 ◼   ► So Apple today, on the February 4th, introduced Apple Invites, a new app for iPhone that helps

00:32:49 ◼   ► users create custom invitations to gather friends and family for any occasion.

00:32:53 ◼   ► With Apple Invites, users can create and easily share invitations, RSVPs, contribute to shared

00:32:58 ◼   ► albums, and engage with Apple Music Playlists.

00:33:00 ◼   ► Starting today, users can download Apple Invites from the App Store or access it through the

00:33:04 ◼   ► web at iCloud.com.invites.

00:33:06 ◼   ► iCloud Plus subscribers can create invitations, and anyone can RSVP, regardless of whether they

00:33:10 ◼   ► have an Apple account or Apple device.

00:33:12 ◼   ► Participants can easily contribute photos and videos to a dedicated shared album within

00:33:16 ◼   ► each invite to help preserve memories and relive the event.

00:33:19 ◼   ► And collaborative playlists allow Apple Music subscribers to create curated event soundtracks

00:33:24 ◼   ► that guests can access right from Apple Invites.

00:33:27 ◼   ► So first, we just have to acknowledge that it really annoys some people, that invite, which

00:33:33 ◼   ► is a verb, has been nouned instead of saying invitations, because invitations is too long.

00:33:38 ◼   ► They say, oh, invites.

00:33:40 ◼   ► That's the name of the app.

00:33:42 ◼   ► It's not Apple Invitations.

00:33:43 ◼   ► It's Apple Invites.

00:33:44 ◼   ► Language changes.

00:33:46 ◼   ► Just got to deal with it as much as it pains me in some other instances.

00:33:50 ◼   ► So this one I can tolerate, but it does look better underneath an app icon.

00:33:56 ◼   ► The second thing is, why is Apple doing this?

00:34:00 ◼   ► I feel like there's two interns at Apple who get to build an app every three or four years.

00:34:07 ◼   ► And that's how you get stuff like Clips or Music Memos and now Invites.

00:34:13 ◼   ► And it's like, these are all apps that could serve a purpose and could take off in the market,

00:34:18 ◼   ► but they never put any follow-through behind these apps.

00:34:23 ◼   ► They always get like one or two updates and then die forever and just never, they just

00:34:27 ◼   ► get memory hold.

00:34:27 ◼   ► They never get mentioned again.

00:34:29 ◼   ► No one ends up using them.

00:34:31 ◼   ► They get no traction.

00:34:32 ◼   ► So, you know, like, I think Apple's record with apps like this is even worse than like Google's

00:34:38 ◼   ► record of killing all their web service experiments.

00:34:41 ◼   ► It's like, this is, I'm sure this is a wonderful app, maybe, but why would anyone assume this would

00:34:49 ◼   ► still be here in six months?

00:34:50 ◼   ► Based on Apple's traffic record, I have no idea.

00:34:52 ◼   ► Yeah, this is some anonymous snark that we got regarding this is, can't wait for this

00:34:56 ◼   ► to wither on the vine, just like journal and clips.

00:34:57 ◼   ► Right.

00:34:58 ◼   ► Yeah, exactly.

00:34:59 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:34:59 ◼   ► So, setting that aside, I've actually used the app and it doesn't look like it was made

00:35:05 ◼   ► by interns.

00:35:06 ◼   ► It is fairly fancy and sophisticated.

00:35:08 ◼   ► It looks a lot like if you watch a lot of WWC videos where they do demo apps, imagine

00:35:13 ◼   ► the type of app that would be an Apple demo app at WWDC, but like completed and polished,

00:35:20 ◼   ► right?

00:35:21 ◼   ► very much in the same kind of style and vibe where they would describe like, let's do this

00:35:25 ◼   ► and let's make this here and show this and let's have a nice background.

00:35:28 ◼   ► Backyard birds.

00:35:29 ◼   ► Right.

00:35:30 ◼   ► Everything is a rounded rectangle and everything has pretty backgrounds on it or whatever.

00:35:33 ◼   ► And I have to say, like, as an example of, I mean, it's hard to pin this all on that,

00:35:38 ◼   ► but like Apple makes so few new apps.

00:35:40 ◼   ► As an example of like, this is what Apple thinks a good iOS app should look like.

00:35:45 ◼   ► Kind of like with system settings in the Mac.

00:35:47 ◼   ► I'm not sure I agree with them.

00:35:49 ◼   ► It is pretty and polished, but having used it for its intended purpose, I made a fake Super

00:35:58 ◼   ► Bowl party and invited people to it.

00:36:00 ◼   ► That's exactly what I did.

00:36:01 ◼   ► And then, you know, it's the time of year.

00:36:03 ◼   ► It's why it's a good time, right?

00:36:04 ◼   ► To try the app out.

00:36:06 ◼   ► I feel like just the information architecture and visual hierarchy makes it more difficult

00:36:14 ◼   ► than it needs to be to use the app in a utilitarian way.

00:36:19 ◼   ► Like when it comes to stuff like this, you just want it to work and you want just the facts

00:36:25 ◼   ► and you don't want anything getting in the way.

00:36:26 ◼   ► And as cute as it is to have a nice background and a playlist and all these shading and rounded

00:36:33 ◼   ► rectangles, I found it to be visually noisy in something that I want to be straightforward.

00:36:39 ◼   ► Like consider the difference between an app like this and something like Apple's calendar

00:36:45 ◼   ► or Google calendar or something like that.

00:36:46 ◼   ► Calendars are don't really go whole hog into this because like I want to see the days.

00:36:50 ◼   ► I want to see the events.

00:36:51 ◼   ► I want to see like I don't need everything to be shaded or floating or have borders around

00:36:57 ◼   ► it or be inset on a rounded rectangle or have fancy backgrounds or anything like that.

00:37:02 ◼   ► I just I don't think this app.

00:37:05 ◼   ► Functionally, I think people would find it harder to both use this app to set up a thing

00:37:11 ◼   ► and make invitations and also more difficult to accept or reject an invitation or look at

00:37:18 ◼   ► it to figure out when the invitation is like just the basic functionality of like I think

00:37:22 ◼   ► this app works way better in screenshots and WWDC demos than it does in real life for its

00:37:29 ◼   ► intended purpose.

00:37:29 ◼   ► And it's not bad.

00:37:31 ◼   ► There's nothing like bad or wrong with it.

00:37:33 ◼   ► I just feel like sometimes it's, I don't know, too much, too much missing the forest for the

00:37:41 ◼   ► trees.

00:37:41 ◼   ► Like I want the info.

00:37:42 ◼   ► It's too cute by half.

00:37:44 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:37:44 ◼   ► I mean, it's not even that cute.

00:37:45 ◼   ► It's not like they're shredding papers like the wallet thing or whatever.

00:37:48 ◼   ► It's just I'm not sure they've it's just it's kind of like it's kind of like visually like

00:37:53 ◼   ► really busy wallpaper like on a house, right?

00:37:55 ◼   ► It's just too too much, right?

00:37:57 ◼   ► I just need to know the event who's coming who's not.

00:38:00 ◼   ► How do I reply?

00:38:01 ◼   ► How do I set?

00:38:02 ◼   ► Like and I felt like the app was kind of visually and interface wise fighting me.

00:38:07 ◼   ► I found a lot of time searching for stuff that was just like beautifully inset and like

00:38:12 ◼   ► text on a colored background or whatever.

00:38:14 ◼   ► It's too much for me.

00:38:16 ◼   ► Yeah, I agree with you.

00:38:18 ◼   ► It is very pretty to look at.

00:38:20 ◼   ► I think it's a very good showy example of what an iOS app can be.

00:38:26 ◼   ► But the thing of it is, is that I feel like a lot of the conventions and maybe affordances,

00:38:32 ◼   ► but the way it works is so dissimilar from standard iOS apps that I feel it's almost off

00:38:40 ◼   ► putting.

00:38:40 ◼   ► Maybe that's because I'm getting older.

00:38:41 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:38:42 ◼   ► But I feel like a really good iOS app to my eyes is one that has the same conventions as

00:38:53 ◼   ► most other apps on the platform, but does it in a very unique style.

00:38:56 ◼   ► And I think, Marco, you know, your work over your entire iOS career has been a really good

00:39:01 ◼   ► example of this where I think generally speaking, you take the kind of gist of what an iOS app

00:39:09 ◼   ► is put, but put something or several somethings on top.

00:39:13 ◼   ► A simple example of this may be a custom font.

00:39:15 ◼   ► And I actually don't think that that's particularly necessary these days.

00:39:18 ◼   ► And you've said the same in years past, but, but as a silly example, you know, take a standard

00:39:23 ◼   ► table view, but put a custom font on it or, you know, something along those lines.

00:39:27 ◼   ► So you can still look and you don't have to squint to say, oh yeah, this is a table just

00:39:31 ◼   ► like I'm used to.

00:39:31 ◼   ► You immediately say, oh, this is a table, but it's a pretty table.

00:39:34 ◼   ► And I feel like this app, while unquestionably very pretty, it's cumbersome on account of

00:39:42 ◼   ► it breaking the conventions that you're used to.

00:39:45 ◼   ► The other thing I didn't love about it is, so I set up a Superbowl party for myself.

00:39:50 ◼   ► That's a euphemism for something.

00:39:52 ◼   ► It's going to be a real exciting party, y'all.

00:39:54 ◼   ► I copied the link to it, which I did approve, or I approve of the fact that you don't need

00:40:00 ◼   ► to send it to an email or phone number or what have you.

00:40:03 ◼   ► And then I opened up a Chrome incognito window to go to that link and see what happens.

00:40:09 ◼   ► And it was very off-putting, not because it required me to create an account or anything

00:40:16 ◼   ► like that, which would have been a non-starter immediately, but it wanted to do the, like,

00:40:20 ◼   ► let's verify this email dance.

00:40:22 ◼   ► And, you know, so let's verify the email by sending you a six-digit code, then you got

00:40:26 ◼   ► to type it in.

00:40:26 ◼   ► And I'd set my invite to require permission to say, you know, you're attending or what have

00:40:32 ◼   ► I guess it was maybe even to answer the question, you know, at all.

00:40:35 ◼   ► And so once I went through with this anonymous user and said, okay, I would like to be a part

00:40:42 ◼   ► of this, please, then the me that's the invite owner, you know, I put that hat on again, so

00:40:47 ◼   ► back on my iPhone, I guess you could say, I then need to approve the fact that this person

00:40:52 ◼   ► even wants to see what's happening, which I get why they do that because, you know, my home

00:40:56 ◼   ► address was on this invite, you know, as an example, but it's a little bit cumbersome.

00:41:01 ◼   ► And then once the anonymous user back in Chrome goes to accept, you know, the invitation or

00:41:07 ◼   ► decline or say maybe or what have you, it's got to do that whole login dance again or not

00:41:12 ◼   ► login, but like, okay, I'd like to do this now.

00:41:14 ◼   ► Okay.

00:41:14 ◼   ► What's the six-digit code?

00:41:17 ◼   ► Okay.

00:41:17 ◼   ► It's one, two, three, four, five, six, you know, and it's just a little bit off-putting

00:41:21 ◼   ► and I approve generally of the fact that they're trying to do this in such a way that, you know,

00:41:27 ◼   ► you don't have to full-on create an account, but it's, it's, it's kind of a lot of work.

00:41:31 ◼   ► And if you are not in the Apple ecosystem, it's certainly workable.

00:41:36 ◼   ► I'm not saying it's impossible.

00:41:37 ◼   ► And to be honest with you, in my experience with the, with Evite, oh my word, this is

00:41:42 ◼   ► so much nicer, so much nicer.

00:41:44 ◼   ► Um, but I saw somewhere, and unfortunately I didn't think to write it down, but I saw

00:41:47 ◼   ► somewhere that somebody had, uh, had offered an alternative app that does this.

00:41:52 ◼   ► I think it started with a P, but the name is escaping me.

00:41:54 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:41:54 ◼   ► The, the app that's complaining that Apple essentially copied.

00:41:57 ◼   ► Yes.

00:41:57 ◼   ► Yes.

00:41:57 ◼   ► Yes.

00:41:57 ◼   ► Yes.

00:41:57 ◼   ► They cited the part of like the app store guidelines that said, uh, don't upload copycat apps.

00:42:02 ◼   ► Don't just take someone else's app and modify the interface a little.

00:42:05 ◼   ► So they're real bitter that their app, this apparently looks and works a lot like their app.

00:42:09 ◼   ► But I think Evite is a good example because I mean, maybe there's no avoiding this, but

00:42:15 ◼   ► like if you are not Apple, if you do not own a platform and you are trying to make an app

00:42:20 ◼   ► for people to make invitations to events, you're going to make sure that it is platform agnostic

00:42:28 ◼   ► because you don't want anyone not to use your app because someone in their family doesn't

00:42:32 ◼   ► use the same platform or some friend doesn't use the same platform.

00:42:34 ◼   ► You're like, look, it doesn't matter what you use.

00:42:36 ◼   ► If you want to invite people to a thing, use Evite.

00:42:39 ◼   ► We don't care what you, what computer you're on, what device you're on, what OS you're

00:42:43 ◼   ► on.

00:42:43 ◼   ► We need to make it good and the same everywhere for everybody.

00:42:47 ◼   ► Apple does not work that way because they are a platform owner and I think it hurts the

00:42:52 ◼   ► app like that.

00:42:53 ◼   ► So this is from, uh, you should read the next thing from the verge about Apple's ecosystem

00:42:57 ◼   ► integration.

00:42:57 ◼   ► Sure.

00:42:58 ◼   ► So from the verge, the experience has some hiccups for those not fully in the Apple ecosystem,

00:43:03 ◼   ► which isn't surprising.

00:43:06 ◼   ► Uh, the, for starters, where an iPhone user can go straight to the invitation using your

00:43:10 ◼   ► link, assuming they're already signed into iCloud, Android users have to enter their email address

00:43:13 ◼   ► and then get a verification code to get in.

00:43:15 ◼   ► This is what I was talking about a minute ago.

00:43:16 ◼   ► They'll also need to sign up for an Apple account to look at a photo album if you had one.

00:43:20 ◼   ► And, and Android user or not, your friends need an Apple music subscription to hear your

00:43:25 ◼   ► playlist.

00:43:25 ◼   ► Otherwise, they'll only get a preview of it.

00:43:26 ◼   ► I mean, that I do kind of get, but it's all, I get both sides of that.

00:43:30 ◼   ► Like, it's kind of crummy, but what is Apple really supposed to do there?

00:43:32 ◼   ► Anyway, coming back to the verge, none of that will keep Android users from seeing key details

00:43:37 ◼   ► about your event or RSVPing to it, but it'll be obvious that they aren't getting the whole

00:43:41 ◼   ► experience.

00:43:42 ◼   ► It's kind of like with Apple and like Apple TV plus or whatever, they just have to get

00:43:46 ◼   ► over the idea that like, imagine if Apple TV plus was only available if you had an Apple

00:43:50 ◼   ► TV hardware puck, like that would be ridiculous.

00:43:52 ◼   ► Right.

00:43:53 ◼   ► And I feel like they're in the same spot.

00:43:54 ◼   ► It's like, well, what else can we do?

00:43:56 ◼   ► Of course the playlist is going to be in Apple music.

00:43:58 ◼   ► And if you want to see the photo album, everyone knows there's no way to share photos without

00:44:01 ◼   ► having an iCloud account.

00:44:02 ◼   ► So of course we have to make them have an iCloud account.

00:44:04 ◼   ► Like if you were Evite or something, you'd be like, share a Spotify playlist, share a title

00:44:08 ◼   ► playlist, share a YouTube music.

00:44:10 ◼   ► You'd support them all because you don't want any reasons for someone to not use your

00:44:13 ◼   ► thing.

00:44:14 ◼   ► You want to make like the best experience for everybody involved.

00:44:17 ◼   ► Right.

00:44:18 ◼   ► And Apple is kind of trying to do that, but it's so heavily weighted.

00:44:22 ◼   ► Jason, at one point, Jason Snell thought that you had to have an iCloud account to do it simply

00:44:26 ◼   ► because if you try to use an email account on an Apple device that it knows you have, that

00:44:32 ◼   ► it knows it belongs to an iCloud account, it forces you to sign into iCloud.

00:44:35 ◼   ► So he thought it was just impossible not to do it.

00:44:37 ◼   ► Like they're just so heavily hurting you towards things.

00:44:39 ◼   ► And it's like, in the end, sending an invitation to an event and accepting an invitation does

00:44:44 ◼   ► not require any kind of Apple thing.

00:44:47 ◼   ► You can do it without it.

00:44:49 ◼   ► Companies do it without it.

00:44:50 ◼   ► But of course, Apple integrates with it and makes that the happy path.

00:44:53 ◼   ► And I feel like it's going to have to make people feel like left out.

00:44:56 ◼   ► And then I feel like this whole experience doesn't pass the very difficult, I was going to call

00:45:01 ◼   ► it a sniff test, but more like the very difficult trial that is using any technology product with

00:45:08 ◼   ► people who are not technology enthusiasts.

00:45:10 ◼   ► Like say you're planning like your parents' 50th wedding anniversary and you being a tech

00:45:15 ◼   ► nerd is like, I know, I'll set up an Apple invitation for it.

00:45:18 ◼   ► And everyone's like, what is this?

00:45:22 ◼   ► What do I have to do?

00:45:23 ◼   ► Is this a thing?

00:45:24 ◼   ► Like, like what benefit?

00:45:25 ◼   ► Like maybe they would humor you, but they're like, is this helping at all?

00:45:28 ◼   ► Or is this just like now another thing we have to deal with?

00:45:30 ◼   ► And oh, Aunt Sue has an Android phone.

00:45:33 ◼   ► How is she going to like, and in the end, they'd be like, what benefit are we getting?

00:45:37 ◼   ► Why don't we just use an Evite?

00:45:38 ◼   ► Everyone knows how to use Evite.

00:45:39 ◼   ► We use that for Timmy's birthday party last month.

00:45:42 ◼   ► Like just the sort of the, the disappointment and sigh you get from trying to foist any kind

00:45:48 ◼   ► of sort of like new shiny proprietary Apple.

00:45:51 ◼   ► And, but look, and you say, but look how beautiful, look how beautiful this invitation looks on my

00:45:54 ◼   ► phone.

00:45:55 ◼   ► See how the background is color themed to the transparent buttons with a, with a bright out.

00:45:59 ◼   ► And they're like, I don't care.

00:46:00 ◼   ► Just people need to know in like very high contrast, bold, simple text.

00:46:06 ◼   ► It's easy to find where and when the event is, who's going and whether they've already RSVPed

00:46:11 ◼   ► it.

00:46:11 ◼   ► Like, and that's where stuff like this falls down.

00:46:13 ◼   ► Like I don't, I don't fault the people making the app.

00:46:15 ◼   ► I think it's a beautiful app.

00:46:16 ◼   ► I think it makes for great demos, but like this approach to making apps is a poor fit for

00:46:23 ◼   ► what this app does.

00:46:24 ◼   ► Maybe it's a good fit for food trucks or backyard birds, but it's a poor fit for.

00:46:29 ◼   ► It's inviting people to an event because that activity has nothing to do with Apple platforms.

00:46:35 ◼   ► Nothing.

00:46:35 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:46:36 ◼   ► A party full, by the way, real time follow up part party full, which we'll put a link in

00:46:40 ◼   ► the show notes is the app that I was thinking of, which was mentioned actually in this Verge

00:46:43 ◼   ► article.

00:46:44 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:46:45 ◼   ► I mean, I respect the, the idea.

00:46:48 ◼   ► I think it's a good idea.

00:46:49 ◼   ► I think that certainly by Apple standards, they have far more affordances for other platforms

00:46:55 ◼   ► than they typically would.

00:46:57 ◼   ► I feel like Apple forgets that Android exists a lot of the time.

00:47:00 ◼   ► Oh, they don't forget.

00:47:01 ◼   ► They just don't care.

00:47:02 ◼   ► Well, okay.

00:47:03 ◼   ► Fair.

00:47:04 ◼   ► Um, but yeah, I mean this, it is visually very impressive from a usability standpoint.

00:47:10 ◼   ► I didn't love it.

00:47:11 ◼   ► It wasn't actively bad, but it was just a little bit too different for my taste.

00:47:16 ◼   ► Uh, if you haven't actually participated in it, seen it, what have you, uh, a friend of

00:47:20 ◼   ► the show, Steven Robles has a good video on it that we'll put a link in the show notes

00:47:23 ◼   ► for that.

00:47:24 ◼   ► Um, it's, it's, it's good.

00:47:25 ◼   ► It's worth trying.

00:47:26 ◼   ► And certainly if I had a situation where I knew everyone involved was in the Apple ecosystem,

00:47:31 ◼   ► this is where I would probably turn.

00:47:33 ◼   ► But I think perhaps for me, the best thing to come from this is I learned about party full,

00:47:37 ◼   ► which is a alternative to Evite, which I freaking hate.

00:47:40 ◼   ► And thankfully I almost never have to do that, but still I don't like Evite at all.

00:47:45 ◼   ► And to contrast this, like when can the, like all the same kind of philosophy, when can

00:47:51 ◼   ► that, uh, when is that a good fit?

00:47:53 ◼   ► An example would be something like, well, maybe this is not a great example.

00:47:57 ◼   ► It's an example that for my life is a good example.

00:47:58 ◼   ► Flight tracking flighty on the iPhone is amazing and it's amazing.

00:48:04 ◼   ► This can be isolated to the iPhone and still benefit you because yes, there's like, Oh,

00:48:10 ◼   ► what if I want to share the flight with other people, blah, blah, blah.

00:48:12 ◼   ► But in the, in the use case where like, cause parties are always sharing with everybody unless

00:48:15 ◼   ► you're having a party by yourself, like Casey, right?

00:48:17 ◼   ► Events, events always involve multiple people, but flight tracking sometimes.

00:48:22 ◼   ► In fact, I would say frequently just involves one person, right?

00:48:26 ◼   ► Or maybe two people, but not like a huge number of people.

00:48:29 ◼   ► And so the goodness of flighty being confined to the iPhone, I'm assuming it doesn't exist

00:48:34 ◼   ► in other platforms being totally confined to the iPhone does not hurt that application when

00:48:38 ◼   ► you're using it solo to deal with your flights or a flight of one of your loved ones.

00:48:42 ◼   ► And you're picking them up at the airport.

00:48:44 ◼   ► You know what I mean?

00:48:44 ◼   ► Like then you can go whole hog, do whatever you want, require whatever proprietary platform

00:48:50 ◼   ► stuff or whatever, because it's just me and my iPhone.

00:48:53 ◼   ► And there, I'm not like, I'm not foisting this and other people, if I was taking a family

00:48:58 ◼   ► vacation and it was people in extended 25 of us were going to Europe or something, I would

00:49:02 ◼   ► not say everyone buy an iPhone and get flighty because we're all going to share our flights

00:49:08 ◼   ► together.

00:49:08 ◼   ► And it's like, that's, that's too much.

00:49:09 ◼   ► I mean, like for technology stuff, if you're trying to make other people do something so

00:49:15 ◼   ► they can use the technology thing that you like, because you think somehow this is going

00:49:18 ◼   ► to benefit everybody, I can tell you, most people do not agree that that is going to benefit

00:49:22 ◼   ► them.

00:49:23 ◼   ► And to the extent they humor you, you should be thankful.

00:49:25 ◼   ► But in general, it's not a benefit.

00:49:28 ◼   ► So yeah, I just, I think this is just the wrong approach.

00:49:30 ◼   ► So it's a good thing this app will wither and die at some point.

00:49:33 ◼   ► Brutal.

00:49:34 ◼   ► I mean, you're not wrong, but brutal.

00:49:36 ◼   ► Speaking of brutal, did you try it on the iPad yet?

00:49:39 ◼   ► Yeah, I just saw, I use it with Instagram.

00:49:42 ◼   ► It's great.

00:49:43 ◼   ► Yeah, exactly.

00:49:44 ◼   ► Zero for three on new apps on iPad.

00:49:47 ◼   ► No iPad app for sports journal or invites as we record this in February of 2025.

00:49:51 ◼   ► Yeah, I'm so annoyed, continue to be annoyed that Instagram has no iPad app.

00:49:55 ◼   ► Maybe I should just stop using Instagram, but that hasn't happened yet.

00:49:58 ◼   ► But anyway, uh, it's been how many years, but then you look at Apple and Apple not putting

00:50:04 ◼   ► its own small apps.

00:50:06 ◼   ► Like they say, push so hard.

00:50:07 ◼   ► It's like, make your app with this.

00:50:08 ◼   ► Use Swift UI.

00:50:09 ◼   ► You can deploy it on every platform and use the same, same code base for Mac, for iOS, for

00:50:14 ◼   ► iPad, iOS, for Apple TV.

00:50:15 ◼   ► It's great.

00:50:15 ◼   ► And then they come out with three apps in a row, sports journal and invites that are like

00:50:20 ◼   ► small apps.

00:50:21 ◼   ► And it's like, no, of course there's forget about an Apple TV version of it.

00:50:24 ◼   ► Forget about a Mac version of there's not even an iPad version of it.

00:50:28 ◼   ► Not a good advertisement for the amazing cross platform ability of their UI frameworks when

00:50:33 ◼   ► they just like, yeah, no, these are just on the iPhone.

00:50:35 ◼   ► That's it.

00:50:35 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:50:36 ◼   ► It's not great.

00:50:37 ◼   ► It's not great, Bob.

00:50:38 ◼   ► If Apple can't be bothered to make its own apps be on the iPad, what kind of leg do they

00:50:42 ◼   ► have to stand on to say, well, you're not the second or third biggest company in the

00:50:47 ◼   ► world, but you independent developers working by yourself, make sure you have a version of

00:50:51 ◼   ► this for all of our platforms.

00:50:53 ◼   ► I mean, see, also Vision Pro.

00:50:55 ◼   ► I mean, most, a large subset of Vision Pro apps that are pre-installed, you know, that come

00:51:01 ◼   ► with the OS are just iPad apps rather than Vision Pro apps.

00:51:05 ◼   ► You know, it's the same problem.

00:51:06 ◼   ► It's, I don't know, snakes all the way down.

00:51:08 ◼   ► At least Vision Pro, like, you know, if you make an iPhone app, making a Vision Pro, a good

00:51:13 ◼   ► Vision Pro version of that is much harder than making a good iPad version of an app.

00:51:18 ◼   ► I mean, like, even if it's, even if you don't make a good iPad version, just make a version

00:51:23 ◼   ► that doesn't require you to run the phone version and then zoom it to 2x.

00:51:27 ◼   ► It was like, like, just minimal bait.

00:51:29 ◼   ► Like, again, maybe it is two interns doing this.

00:51:31 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:51:32 ◼   ► Again, the app is well implemented.

00:51:33 ◼   ► It is a nice app.

00:51:35 ◼   ► It is a good app.

00:51:35 ◼   ► They should release the source code.

00:51:37 ◼   ► I was just thinking that.

00:51:39 ◼   ► You stole it from me.

00:51:40 ◼   ► It's probably way more complicated than we think it is because all real apps.

00:51:42 ◼   ► It's even better.

00:51:43 ◼   ► All real apps are way more complicated and do weird stuff and they're not going to release

00:51:47 ◼   ► it, but, you know.

00:51:48 ◼   ► They won't, but I think it would be an interesting case study.

00:51:50 ◼   ► Well, we got the MacPaint source code now, so, you know, fast forward that number of years

00:51:56 ◼   ► and we'll have the Sports Journal Invites source code on archive.org.

00:52:01 ◼   ► Anything you feel like is missing from it, John?

00:52:03 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:52:03 ◼   ► So, even just within the world of Apple stuff, so forget about this.

00:52:07 ◼   ► It's you and your Apple-using family.

00:52:08 ◼   ► No worry about cross-platform stuff.

00:52:10 ◼   ► You love the interface.

00:52:11 ◼   ► You don't care that it doesn't, that it's hard to find stuff or that it looks weird or

00:52:14 ◼   ► whatever.

00:52:14 ◼   ► You just love it.

00:52:15 ◼   ► It's great.

00:52:15 ◼   ► Even then, this app doesn't do everything that it should because one of the most frequently

00:52:24 ◼   ► requested things that people want when there's some event is a place to talk about that event

00:52:28 ◼   ► in real-time-ish, a Slack channel or like a message group or whatever.

00:52:33 ◼   ► And guess what?

00:52:34 ◼   ► Apple has a messaging platform.

00:52:35 ◼   ► It's called Messages.

00:52:37 ◼   ► There could be a group message thread that would auto-add everybody who accepts the invitation

00:52:41 ◼   ► and you could discuss, hey, who's bringing potato chips?

00:52:43 ◼   ► Who's bringing this?

00:52:44 ◼   ► But nope, the app doesn't do that.

00:52:46 ◼   ► Now, granted, it's just 1.0.

00:52:47 ◼   ► Whatever.

00:52:47 ◼   ► I understand.

00:52:48 ◼   ► But it's just like you have to go in one direction or the other.

00:52:51 ◼   ► Either this is an app for Apple users who use all Apple stuff and love Apple things and

00:52:55 ◼   ► everyone's all Apple integrated or it's cross-platform.

00:52:58 ◼   ► And this is like half Apple integrated but doesn't even integrate with all the Apple stuff

00:53:02 ◼   ► and doesn't even have a way to do one of the most frequently requested things.

00:53:07 ◼   ► Like, I think more people want to discuss who's bringing potato chips in a message thread than

00:53:12 ◼   ► want to make a playlist for your party.

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00:54:56 ◼   ► All right.

00:54:58 ◼   ► Hey, parents, if you are listening with young ones nearby, we're going to talk about that

00:55:04 ◼   ► news that's been going around the Apple world recently.

00:55:06 ◼   ► So maybe pause the program if you have little ears.

00:55:10 ◼   ► I mean, we're going to be talking about an app that shows people in it that just happen

00:55:14 ◼   ► to not be wearing anything.

00:55:14 ◼   ► I don't think we need to get more hardcore than that.

00:55:17 ◼   ► I agree.

00:55:18 ◼   ► But in case you have sensitive and very young ears nearby, just be aware.

00:55:22 ◼   ► So what am I talking about?

00:55:24 ◼   ► Yes.

00:55:24 ◼   ► So according to AltStore, Apple has approved their first porn app for the iPhone.

00:55:31 ◼   ► And so reading from The Verge, the first, quote, Apple-approved, quote, porn app for iPhone

00:55:36 ◼   ► is rolling out in Europe via AltStore's PAL alternative to the iOS app marketplace.

00:55:41 ◼   ► AltStore PAL developer Riley Testit says that Hot Tub, which describes itself as an ad-free

00:55:47 ◼   ► adult content browser, has made it through Apple's notarization review for fraud, security threats,

00:55:51 ◼   ► and functionality, and will be available for AltStore PAL users in the EU to download starting

00:55:56 ◼   ► a couple of days ago.

00:55:58 ◼   ► So AltStore had a post on Threads, which we will link in the show notes.

00:56:03 ◼   ► And there's an image on there that says, introducing Hot Tub, the first Apple-approved porn app.

00:56:07 ◼   ► Download now on AltStore PAL.

00:56:09 ◼   ► Apple was not happy about this at all.

00:56:13 ◼   ► So Apple issued a statement to several different outlets.

00:56:16 ◼   ► We are deeply concerned about the safety risks that hardcore porn apps of this type create

00:56:20 ◼   ► for EU users, especially kids.

00:56:22 ◼   ► This app and others like it will undermine consumer trust and confidence in our ecosystem that we

00:56:27 ◼   ► have worked for more than a decade to make the best in the world.

00:56:29 ◼   ► Contrary to the false statements made by the marketplace developer, we certainly do not approve

00:56:33 ◼   ► of this app and would never offer it in our app store.

00:56:36 ◼   ► The truth is that we are required by the European Commission to allow it to be distributed by

00:56:39 ◼   ► marketplace operators like AltStore and Epic, who may not share our concerns for user safety.

00:56:43 ◼   ► Sick burn.

00:56:44 ◼   ► Riley tested, again, reacted with a toot of his own.

00:56:49 ◼   ► It reads as follows.

00:56:50 ◼   ► My response to Apple's statement on Hot Tub.

00:56:53 ◼   ► There are two screenshots, the first of which is a post from 9to5Mac.

00:56:58 ◼   ► Riley has highlighted the following passage.

00:57:02 ◼   ► Contrary to the false statements made by the marketplace developer, we certainly do not approve

00:57:05 ◼   ► of this app.

00:57:05 ◼   ► The second screenshot is App Store Connect saying, and I am quoting,

00:57:11 ◼   ► the following app has been approved for distribution.

00:57:14 ◼   ► App name, Hot Tub, video player.

00:57:16 ◼   ► Riley, or AltStore broadly, then had a later on response.

00:57:22 ◼   ► That response reads, Apple is claiming we made false statements about the approval of Hot Tub.

00:57:27 ◼   ► This is not true.

00:57:29 ◼   ► All apps distributed with AltStore Pal must be submitted to Apple for notarization.

00:57:33 ◼   ► Unlike macOS, iOS notarization involves a human review process where Apple employees

00:57:36 ◼   ► manually review apps before they are either, quote, approved or, quote, rejected for distribution,

00:57:42 ◼   ► in Apple's own words.

00:57:43 ◼   ► Unfortunately, Apple has rejected several apps from our store in the past for dubious reasons.

00:57:48 ◼   ► So the phrase Apple approved in our marketing is a reference to the fact that Hot Tub was

00:57:51 ◼   ► approved, not rejected, by Apple for notarization.

00:57:53 ◼   ► To be perfectly clear, Apple has not endorsed Hot Tub in any way.

00:57:56 ◼   ► However, they did approve it.

00:57:58 ◼   ► Yeah, I mean, that's, this is, this is the stupid situation that Apple has gotten themselves

00:58:03 ◼   ► in.

00:58:03 ◼   ► That, well, let me just repeat what you just said, because it's important that Apple has

00:58:08 ◼   ► gotten themselves in.

00:58:10 ◼   ► Right, because they are the ones who made notarization editorial for the EU.

00:58:17 ◼   ► Again, we've gone over this before, so I'll be quick.

00:58:20 ◼   ► What the notarization process has been for years before this was a process on the Mac that software

00:58:27 ◼   ► was run through only automated checks.

00:58:30 ◼   ► And it was mainly to look for, like, known malware signatures.

00:58:35 ◼   ► And then the main, the main thing about notarization is that if an app was found to contain malware, to

00:58:40 ◼   ► be malware, that was notarized.

00:58:43 ◼   ► Apple could then revoke that signature server side, and then all Macs would eventually, I

00:58:47 ◼   ► guess, get that revocation and not allow that, not allow the binary to run.

00:58:52 ◼   ► So, that was an automated process that did not involve Apple having human reviewers look

00:58:58 ◼   ► at each app.

00:58:58 ◼   ► They used the same word to describe a very different process with the alternative app stores in the

00:59:06 ◼   ► EU.

00:59:06 ◼   ► They used that same word to ostensibly do the same thing of, like, we're just going to give

00:59:12 ◼   ► it a cursory check to make sure it doesn't, it isn't literal malware for security reasons.

00:59:17 ◼   ► But then they started rejecting apps that were not malware, like the VMAC emulator, which they

00:59:25 ◼   ► rejected on trademark rounds.

00:59:26 ◼   ► Now, I actually understand why they did that, because trademarks need to be defended.

00:59:32 ◼   ► And if you don't defend your trademark, and if there's evidence that you're not defending

00:59:36 ◼   ► your trademark, somebody could try to get it invalidated.

00:59:38 ◼   ► Well, you can defend, when they say defending your trademark, they mean, like, suing people,

00:59:42 ◼   ► which they still could have done, while still allowing it through, you know what I mean?

00:59:45 ◼   ► Oh, yes, of course.

00:59:46 ◼   ► But they could, you know, but if they decided that this is going to be a human review process

00:59:51 ◼   ► on iOS, because here's the thing, Apple hates that they have to allow the EU ad, like,

00:59:56 ◼   ► they hate it so much, and Apple is not a good loser, like, they're not, they're a very

01:00:02 ◼   ► sore loser when they lose an argument about something.

01:00:05 ◼   ► They hate it.

01:00:06 ◼   ► They cannot deal.

01:00:08 ◼   ► And so they decided to, you know, be Apple about it and have, you know, no flexibility and try

01:00:17 ◼   ► to be as weaselly and prickly as possible to try to make the alternative app stores fail

01:00:23 ◼   ► as much as possible.

01:00:24 ◼   ► And so they put themselves in it.

01:00:26 ◼   ► They injected themselves into this process that is ostensibly only for automated security

01:00:31 ◼   ► checks everywhere else, but they made it a human review.

01:00:34 ◼   ► So now, anything that actually gets, quote, approved through notarization on the EU alternative

01:00:41 ◼   ► app stores, yes, a human at Apple definitely did look at that and definitely did decide this

01:00:48 ◼   ► is okay.

01:00:48 ◼   ► And then it is approved.

01:00:51 ◼   ► That is very different from passing a scan or being digitally signed.

01:00:55 ◼   ► Those are very different things.

01:00:57 ◼   ► That's what notarization was.

01:00:58 ◼   ► This is approval.

01:00:59 ◼   ► Now, fewer of the rules are being enforced compared to their, you know, the Apple official app store,

01:01:06 ◼   ► but it's still a human approval.

01:01:08 ◼   ► It didn't need to be.

01:01:09 ◼   ► Apple injected themselves into that role because they couldn't deal.

01:01:14 ◼   ► So they put themselves there and now they have to bear the consequences of that.

01:01:17 ◼   ► And those consequences include if they let something through that infringes their trademarks,

01:01:21 ◼   ► they could be held liable for that in a bad way.

01:01:23 ◼   ► Or in the case of approving a porn app, yeah, Apple did approve a porn app.

01:01:28 ◼   ► They could have set up the system differently.

01:01:30 ◼   ► They still can.

01:01:30 ◼   ► It's not too late to change it, but they could have set the system up differently in a way

01:01:34 ◼   ► that was more straightforward, but they refused to.

01:01:37 ◼   ► They created this problem 100% themselves and they deserve all of the press that it generates.

01:01:44 ◼   ► Yeah, they don't have to defend their trademark in this thing.

01:01:46 ◼   ► As they say in their statement here, the truth is we are required by European Commission to

01:01:50 ◼   ► allow it to be distributed by marketplace operators like All Star, right?

01:01:53 ◼   ► So there's like, first of all, it's rich for Apple saying suddenly now they care about what

01:01:57 ◼   ► the European Commission allows that it requires them to do by law.

01:01:59 ◼   ► They just ignore it where they feel like it, right?

01:02:01 ◼   ► Yeah, if that's if that's required by law, then what happened to VMAC?

01:02:03 ◼   ► Yeah, exactly.

01:02:04 ◼   ► When it's something they want to do, oh, we just have to follow the law.

01:02:08 ◼   ► But something they don't want to do is like law schmaw.

01:02:10 ◼   ► But anyway, court wise, they could absolutely allow things that infringe their copyright

01:02:16 ◼   ► through and then deal with it the way you deal with all copyright, which is you sue the people

01:02:19 ◼   ► out of existence, you send them a cease and desist, you bring them to court.

01:02:21 ◼   ► Like that's defending your trademark.

01:02:23 ◼   ► You don't need to, even if you have introduced yourself as a human element, allowing that thing

01:02:28 ◼   ► to go through, you can say, well, but we have to do this because the European Commission,

01:02:32 ◼   ► as we read many shows ago, says here's what you can stop apps for.

01:02:35 ◼   ► And intellectual property is not one of the things.

01:02:38 ◼   ► So they're saying, look, this is the law in the EU.

01:02:41 ◼   ► We are following the EU law.

01:02:42 ◼   ► No court is going to say, well, now you didn't defend your trademark, so you don't own Mac

01:02:45 ◼   ► anymore.

01:02:46 ◼   ► Like they're fine.

01:02:47 ◼   ► That is not an excuse for them doing this.

01:02:48 ◼   ► They can they could have 100 percent human review of every single thing that goes to the

01:02:52 ◼   ► EU app store.

01:02:53 ◼   ► Let sail through a bunch of stuff that infringes their own copyright.

01:02:56 ◼   ► And no court is going to say, oh, you didn't defend your copyright because the law is clear

01:03:00 ◼   ► on this.

01:03:00 ◼   ► But anyway, yeah, they're just they're just trying to have it both ways.

01:03:02 ◼   ► And this argument is so ridiculous because anybody who is a speaker of the English language

01:03:08 ◼   ► understands the difference between we approve of this as in philosophically, we think this

01:03:13 ◼   ► is the right thing to do versus we have approved this, which means there is a process and we

01:03:17 ◼   ► can reject or approve.

01:03:18 ◼   ► Those are two different things.

01:03:20 ◼   ► Every Apple knows there are different things.

01:03:21 ◼   ► Alt star knows there are different things.

01:03:23 ◼   ► They're just talking past each other.

01:03:25 ◼   ► And it's very silly.

01:03:26 ◼   ► And, you know, maybe, you know, I think the all star people like it sued because of like

01:03:31 ◼   ► the laws where you can't make it in an advertisement.

01:03:33 ◼   ► You can't make it look like some company endorses something when they don't, because despite the

01:03:37 ◼   ► silly difference, saying the first Apple approved porn app, that is probably going to not win

01:03:42 ◼   ► in court if Apple decides to fight them.

01:03:44 ◼   ► Because in those two definitions of approved, a casual person looking at this ad would absolutely

01:03:50 ◼   ► think that they're using the other definition, which is Apple philosophically thinks this is

01:03:54 ◼   ► appropriate.

01:03:55 ◼   ► They would not say, oh, it's so clear that this is part of a process that Apple had to do for

01:03:59 ◼   ► the EU.

01:04:00 ◼   ► Like, so this ad by alt store is probably extremely ill advised doing anything to anger

01:04:06 ◼   ► Apple around this is ill advised because Apple has a lot of money and they're mean, as Jason

01:04:13 ◼   ► wrote in a good story that we'll link in the show notes, alt store pokes the bear doing anything

01:04:18 ◼   ► to antagonize Apple seems like not a great idea unless you're trying to pull an epic epic and

01:04:24 ◼   ► go like, we're going to antagonize them because we know they will crush us.

01:04:27 ◼   ► And then when we, when they crush us, we'll be like, see, look, Apple's crushing us.

01:04:31 ◼   ► Uh, it's, I don't know, they're picking, they're picking a silly fight here, but if they want

01:04:36 ◼   ► to be the standard bearer for Apple's hypocrisy, when it comes to the following EU laws and dealing

01:04:41 ◼   ► with the alt store, you know, more power to them.

01:04:43 ◼   ► But, and this is not even getting to the whole thing of like Apple's Apple statement makes

01:04:49 ◼   ► it seem like, uh, any kind of like sex based thing, we would never allow that on the app

01:04:55 ◼   ► store.

01:04:55 ◼   ► In fact, Apple humans don't have sex.

01:04:57 ◼   ► We don't even know about sex, right?

01:04:59 ◼   ► Versus, versus the harmful, the actual harms involved in pornography.

01:05:04 ◼   ► And it is a complicated issue, but like it, it's kind of as a given and all these things,

01:05:09 ◼   ► sort of the Disney vacation of like, uh, of course Apple would never do or say such a thing.

01:05:14 ◼   ► And no one at Apple has ever had sex or seen anyone else have sex or anything like that.

01:05:18 ◼   ► And it's, it's very kind of like prudish and silly on the flip side though.

01:05:22 ◼   ► Do you want your store to be filled with hardcore porn apps?

01:05:24 ◼   ► And every time you open up the app store app on your phone, it's just, you know, hardcore

01:05:28 ◼   ► pornography blinking in your face.

01:05:29 ◼   ► No, you don't want that either.

01:05:30 ◼   ► Right.

01:05:30 ◼   ► So it actually, there actually is some nuances issue that neither side of this is really,

01:05:34 ◼   ► uh, willing to tackle.

01:05:36 ◼   ► They're not even willing to deal with the thing they both understand, which is the two

01:05:40 ◼   ► different contexts for the word approved in here.

01:05:42 ◼   ► Uh, but I, anyway, I don't see this ending well for anybody.

01:05:47 ◼   ► It's already not ending well for Apple because they're just making themselves look stupid and

01:05:50 ◼   ► even more hypocritical.

01:05:51 ◼   ► And I'm not sure it's going to end well for all store either.

01:05:55 ◼   ► I know they have Epic backing them with the big, big, uh, big, uh, money bags, Epic, helping

01:05:59 ◼   ► them not have to pay the core technology fee or whatever, but just, this is,

01:06:06 ◼   ► this is another message is entertaining to see people poking at each other like this.

01:06:11 ◼   ► But like Jason says, don't poke the bear.

01:06:13 ◼   ► Like, I wish I could come up with an animal analogy that was more appropriate.

01:06:17 ◼   ► Maybe if you were, um, a cheese mite, I don't know.

01:06:20 ◼   ► People don't know what cheese mites are.

01:06:21 ◼   ► Cheese mites are very, maybe you're one of those mites that lives in your eyelashes.

01:06:25 ◼   ► No, people don't want to think about that.

01:06:26 ◼   ► There are mites in your eyelashes.

01:06:27 ◼   ► No, these are terrible examples.

01:06:28 ◼   ► This is getting worse.

01:06:29 ◼   ► Stop.

01:06:30 ◼   ► It's like a microscopic thing.

01:06:31 ◼   ► Like a, you know, a tiny thing that's so small you can't see it with the naked eye versus,

01:06:36 ◼   ► versus the sun that is all store versus Apple in terms of how much money they both have

01:06:41 ◼   ► to wage, uh, punitive, uh, lawsuits.

01:06:44 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:06:46 ◼   ► It's, it's, I mean, it's not a stellar look for anyone involved, but I really think that

01:06:52 ◼   ► this would have been so much more cut and dry if, as Marco had started, you know, or had

01:06:57 ◼   ► said when we first started talking about it, if Apple didn't use notarization for, you know,

01:07:02 ◼   ► editorializing and, and just wielding it as a weapon, you know, when, when, when we saw

01:07:07 ◼   ► that notarization was going to be involved with the DMA and, or not, not the DMA, whatever

01:07:12 ◼   ► this is, this stuff is called.

01:07:13 ◼   ► Um, when we saw that they were going to use notarization, you know, all of us thought,

01:07:17 ◼   ► okay, yeah, that should be fine.

01:07:19 ◼   ► It may not be fine, but it should be fine.

01:07:21 ◼   ► It's been fine on the Mac.

01:07:22 ◼   ► It shouldn't be a big deal.

01:07:23 ◼   ► They're just going to make sure it's not actively hurting your device.

01:07:26 ◼   ► And then it should go straight.

01:07:28 ◼   ► Everything should go straight on through.

01:07:29 ◼   ► Right.

01:07:30 ◼   ► Right.

01:07:31 ◼   ► Right.

01:07:33 ◼   ► And it quickly became obvious that no, since Apple didn't have any other weapons to use,

01:07:39 ◼   ► they use notarization and I, it's just, I didn't like it then.

01:07:43 ◼   ► I don't like it now.

01:07:44 ◼   ► And honestly, they are reaping what they sowed and I don't have a lot of sympathy for Apple

01:07:49 ◼   ► on this one.

01:07:49 ◼   ► It's, it's, they, they've made this bed.

01:07:51 ◼   ► Now they get to sleep.

01:07:52 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:07:52 ◼   ► They, they deserve no sympathy because there were so many easily avoidable problems here

01:07:57 ◼   ► and they chose not to avoid them.

01:07:58 ◼   ► So this is, this is the kind of thing, this is the kind of messiness that their approach

01:08:02 ◼   ► is going to keep creating.

01:08:03 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:08:04 ◼   ► I'm not sure Apple even sees this as messiness because this is an opportunity for them to,

01:08:08 ◼   ► as Gerber was pointing out, to like, to gloat and say, see, this is what we told you

01:08:11 ◼   ► would happen.

01:08:12 ◼   ► See, if you let other people sell things, someone's going to sell a porn app.

01:08:15 ◼   ► I told you what happened.

01:08:16 ◼   ► Look, it's happening.

01:08:16 ◼   ► A porn app.

01:08:17 ◼   ► Oh my God.

01:08:18 ◼   ► Oh my God.

01:08:18 ◼   ► Oh my God.

01:08:18 ◼   ► Getting into all the things of like, well, how many different ways you can get porn on your

01:08:22 ◼   ► phone through web apps or through like the Reddit app or whatever.

01:08:24 ◼   ► And it's just, the world is a complicated place.

01:08:26 ◼   ► But the hypocrisy is clear to anyone looking, but I think, I feel like Apple feels like this

01:08:30 ◼   ► is a PR win for them because they're like, surely everyone hates porn just like we do.

01:08:33 ◼   ► Now we're saying, see, now you see the violence inherent in the system, right?

01:08:36 ◼   ► Like these people, we let the European Union, let them do things and now they're putting out

01:08:40 ◼   ► porn apps.

01:08:40 ◼   ► Now the world's going to end because prior to this, no one could get porn, but now they'll

01:08:44 ◼   ► be able to.

01:08:45 ◼   ► I want to read from Jason's article because I thought this was a good little bit.

01:08:49 ◼   ► Apple claims that their hands are tied by the European commission and yet the company has

01:08:54 ◼   ► used its lever before to protect users from checking my notes here.

01:08:57 ◼   ► Emulators are very old Mac's models.

01:08:59 ◼   ► Seems dangerous.

01:09:00 ◼   ► So which is it?

01:09:01 ◼   ► Is notarization a tool that Apple can use to bypass all European regulations of whatever

01:09:07 ◼   ► Apple feels like it's preventing users from running Mac paint on an iPad or something out

01:09:10 ◼   ► of Apple's hands.

01:09:11 ◼   ► If Apple chose to exercise notarization powers to kill the UTM and mini V-Mac emulators, well

01:09:17 ◼   ► then let Hot Tub through.

01:09:18 ◼   ► Doesn't Alt-Star have a point?

01:09:20 ◼   ► It's hard for Apple to argue its hands are tied if it's used those hands in the recent past.

01:09:24 ◼   ► And then he says, parenthetically, I've contacted Apple's PR representatives and asked if they

01:09:28 ◼   ► can explain the disparity in policies to me and I'll update the stories if they reply.

01:09:32 ◼   ► Last time I checked, they hadn't replied, but not sure what their response is.

01:09:35 ◼   ► But yeah, he gets right to the heart of it.

01:09:37 ◼   ► I think Apple thinks that this is like a triumph for them and really just anyone who cares

01:09:43 ◼   ► about this issue at all looks at it and says, this is not a good look for you, Apple.

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01:11:51 ◼   ► All right, let's do some Ask ATP.

01:11:53 ◼   ► Matthew Fenslow writes, I recently got an ATP membership.

01:11:56 ◼   ► Thank you.

01:11:57 ◼   ► ATP.fm slash join.

01:11:58 ◼   ► And have been going back through past episodes to listen to the bonus content.

01:12:02 ◼   ► One recurring theme is that Marco and Casey's number one wish for Mac is cellular.

01:12:06 ◼   ► I'm really surprised by this.

01:12:07 ◼   ► I travel for work both domestically and internationally frequently and work outside my office several

01:12:12 ◼   ► days a week.

01:12:13 ◼   ► These days, I rarely find it hard to access decent Wi-Fi, and on the rare occasion I do,

01:12:17 ◼   ► I just fall back to phone tethering, which works much better than a few years ago.

01:12:20 ◼   ► Most of my fellow road warriors do the same.

01:12:22 ◼   ► My understanding is that cellular Windows laptops are not super popular.

01:12:26 ◼   ► I would love to know what are the use cases that make the guys so desirous of cellular Macs,

01:12:31 ◼   ► especially since they don't seem to be big travelers.

01:12:33 ◼   ► Is there something specific for being a software developer?

01:12:35 ◼   ► This is one of those things that John rightfully brings up.

01:12:39 ◼   ► Oh, we need to answer this question every year.

01:12:40 ◼   ► And I say that, I probably sound like I'm complaining.

01:12:44 ◼   ► I'm not trying to.

01:12:44 ◼   ► It seems that we're getting enough new listeners that people either forget, like me, or have

01:12:50 ◼   ► never heard the answer before.

01:12:51 ◼   ► And so let's cover it again.

01:12:53 ◼   ► For me, I want to have a Mac that I know can, you know, asterisk, dagger, double dagger,

01:13:01 ◼   ► can always get on the internet.

01:13:02 ◼   ► It doesn't need anything else.

01:13:03 ◼   ► Don't need to wait for tethering.

01:13:05 ◼   ► Don't need to worry about tethering.

01:13:07 ◼   ► Don't need to destroy the battery of two devices simultaneously, only the one.

01:13:10 ◼   ► It can always get online.

01:13:13 ◼   ► Again, if you're in a plane or whatever, it doesn't, you know what I'm saying?

01:13:15 ◼   ► And a great example of this is, I would love to be able to use my Mac in the car easily and

01:13:22 ◼   ► whenever I want.

01:13:23 ◼   ► And I can do that.

01:13:25 ◼   ► Yes, I certainly could do that.

01:13:27 ◼   ► And I could tether.

01:13:28 ◼   ► But it's so nice with my cellular iPad, if I have it in the car, and I'm talking about

01:13:32 ◼   ► it as a passenger, in case I wasn't clear.

01:13:34 ◼   ► If I'm a passenger in the car, you know what I do to get on the internet on my iPad?

01:13:39 ◼   ► I open my iPad.

01:13:41 ◼   ► That's what I do.

01:13:42 ◼   ► Because it's already on the internet, because it has a cellular connection.

01:13:46 ◼   ► Yes, 100% there are ways around this.

01:13:49 ◼   ► And to be fair, to be fair, they've gotten far less egregious over the years.

01:13:55 ◼   ► You know, you can have your Mac connect to your phone, and it will magically just start

01:14:01 ◼   ► personal hotspot on your phone, usually.

01:14:03 ◼   ► Often, but not always.

01:14:05 ◼   ► And yes, Wi-Fi does exist in a lot of places, but A, I don't particularly trust most Wi-Fi

01:14:12 ◼   ► that isn't my own, and that's why I have some sort of VPN, in my case, past Pons or TailScale.

01:14:17 ◼   ► But even still, oftentimes, Wi-Fi is not stellar.

01:14:21 ◼   ► In fact, I go to places where the Wi-Fi is actually not as robust as my Verizon cellular connection.

01:14:27 ◼   ► And that's kind of an indictment of the places that I sometimes go, but it is what it is.

01:14:34 ◼   ► And so, for me, I want to be able to open my laptop and immediately be on the internet.

01:14:39 ◼   ► And if I can't be on the internet immediately, then it's an annoyance.

01:14:45 ◼   ► And it's not so much of an annoyance that, you know, I can't get my work done or whatever.

01:14:49 ◼   ► But if I had my druthers, I would 1,000% spend the extra $130, or in all likelihood, because

01:14:55 ◼   ► it's a Mac, $260 in order to get a cellular modem in it.

01:14:59 ◼   ► I don't know, Marco, tell me where I'm wrong, or what did I leave out?

01:15:03 ◼   ► Zero parts of what you just said are wrong.

01:15:04 ◼   ► Go team.

01:15:05 ◼   ► So here's some other considerations that I have.

01:15:08 ◼   ► So I think what matters a lot is, like, when you open your laptop, if you're almost always

01:15:15 ◼   ► using it in places that have known Wi-Fi networks, you've got no problem.

01:15:20 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:15:20 ◼   ► If you're taking your laptop from home, and you put it in a bag, and you go to work, and

01:15:25 ◼   ► you open it up, and in both cases, you're on the Wi-Fi, then I understand why you don't

01:15:31 ◼   ► think cellular is that necessary.

01:15:32 ◼   ► And for most people, that is their use pattern.

01:15:35 ◼   ► So I get it.

01:15:35 ◼   ► You know, you go to your coffee shop, you open it up, you're on their Wi-Fi already because

01:15:39 ◼   ► you've been there before, fine.

01:15:41 ◼   ► For most people, that is a totally fine use case.

01:15:45 ◼   ► And so they wouldn't want to spend, you know, 50, 60 bucks a month on a data plan for their

01:15:49 ◼   ► laptop or whatever it would be because they don't need it that often.

01:15:53 ◼   ► But some people need it a lot.

01:15:55 ◼   ► I take the train a lot.

01:15:59 ◼   ► Trains don't usually have Wi-Fi.

01:16:03 ◼   ► At least New York trains don't.

01:16:04 ◼   ► Or if they do, at least here in the States, they are so overloaded because it's, you know,

01:16:10 ◼   ► hundreds of people on, like, a single cellular modem, and it's just garbage.

01:16:14 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:16:14 ◼   ► Also, your beloved park bench that you like to work at.

01:16:17 ◼   ► Mm-hmm.

01:16:18 ◼   ► There's probably no Wi-Fi there, right?

01:16:20 ◼   ► Because it's outdoors.

01:16:20 ◼   ► Correct.

01:16:22 ◼   ► And so there are places where if you frequently want to use a laptop in a place that is away

01:16:29 ◼   ► from good Wi-Fi coverage or any Wi-Fi coverage, then this need comes up a lot more.

01:16:34 ◼   ► I think one of the reasons it came up a lot for, like, business laptops in the early aughts

01:16:40 ◼   ► and mid-aughts, like, you see it as an option on ThinkPads and stuff, is because business people

01:16:45 ◼   ► who use laptops are often business travelers.

01:16:48 ◼   ► And business travelers might be going to all different, you know, they might be going to

01:16:52 ◼   ► a new hotel every week or a new city or a new airport or whatever.

01:16:55 ◼   ► And sometimes you don't want to, like, every one of those Wi-Fi networks that you join by

01:17:01 ◼   ► going through their dumb captive portal where you got to, like, type in your room number and

01:17:04 ◼   ► your last name, you are exfiltrating personal data.

01:17:07 ◼   ► Every time you do that, you are granting yet another company access to whatever, you know,

01:17:12 ◼   ► whatever data they can figure out about you by, you know, your internet traffic and everything

01:17:17 ◼   ► else.

01:17:17 ◼   ► And yeah, VPNs can help with some of that.

01:17:19 ◼   ► But it's just, it's an annoyance.

01:17:20 ◼   ► It's a privacy exfiltration.

01:17:22 ◼   ► And then the biggest thing to me is when I open my laptop, everything's out of date.

01:17:28 ◼   ► All the data's out of date.

01:17:29 ◼   ► Oh, good point.

01:17:30 ◼   ► And when you're opening a laptop and you're connecting to Wi-Fi, both Wi-Fi itself is very

01:17:36 ◼   ► fast, typically, or can be.

01:17:38 ◼   ► And also, the laptop instantly connects to the Wi-Fi.

01:17:42 ◼   ► Like, you don't even, if you, when you open up your laptop after going from your home to

01:17:45 ◼   ► your work or your coffee shop, you don't even notice it connecting most of the time.

01:17:48 ◼   ► It's just on.

01:17:49 ◼   ► It's so fast to reconnect to Wi-Fi and everything loads so quickly that when things like pop

01:17:55 ◼   ► in here and there, you barely even have a chance to notice it.

01:17:58 ◼   ► That is not the experience using tethering for cellular.

01:18:01 ◼   ► Using tethering for cellular, you have to open the laptop up.

01:18:04 ◼   ► The laptop has to realize that it can't find any Wi-Fi networks.

01:18:07 ◼   ► Then, if you're lucky, it will prompt you with a notification thing in the corner saying,

01:18:12 ◼   ► do you want to connect to Marco's iPhone?

01:18:14 ◼   ► And there is, as far as I can tell, no way to make it automatically always connect to

01:18:19 ◼   ► your tethering on your phone when you can't find Wi-Fi.

01:18:21 ◼   ► As far as I can tell, there is no setting.

01:18:23 ◼   ► And I looked, when we last talked about this a couple of weeks ago, I looked, I dug through

01:18:27 ◼   ► the support articles.

01:18:27 ◼   ► There doesn't seem to, there's a setting that kind of sounds like it does this, but it doesn't.

01:18:31 ◼   ► I don't know what is going on.

01:18:33 ◼   ► But as far as I can tell, there is no such setting to say, always connect to my phone for

01:18:38 ◼   ► tethering when you don't see a known Wi-Fi network.

01:18:40 ◼   ► So the result is, when you're in these situations and you have a laptop and you open it up,

01:18:44 ◼   ► the result is, you're just looking at out-of-date data.

01:18:47 ◼   ► And you'll be looking at it for probably at least 20 to 30 seconds.

01:18:51 ◼   ► At least.

01:18:51 ◼   ► And that's when you have good coverage and good speeds and everything.

01:18:54 ◼   ► So it's just, it's this huge paper cut.

01:18:58 ◼   ► Every time you open your laptop on a train or whatever, you want to get work done.

01:19:00 ◼   ► And you just have to wait and wait and wait.

01:19:05 ◼   ► Do you want to use your connection?

01:19:06 ◼   ► Yes.

01:19:06 ◼   ► Tap, join, wait, wait.

01:19:09 ◼   ► Maybe it'll join.

01:19:10 ◼   ► Maybe it'll work.

01:19:11 ◼   ► Sometimes it'll say, refuse connection, sorry.

01:19:13 ◼   ► And then you got to try it again.

01:19:14 ◼   ► And then once it does connect, you got to wait and you got to wait.

01:19:17 ◼   ► And then stuff might then start coming in.

01:19:20 ◼   ► And that whole time you're looking at outdated data.

01:19:22 ◼   ► And maybe you like accidentally, you know, hit something in a, hit a keystroke in a note

01:19:27 ◼   ► or move an email and then you create a merge conflict when it does finally load.

01:19:30 ◼   ► Like it's, there's so many paper cuts about that experience.

01:19:33 ◼   ► So if you are somebody who that doesn't happen to very often because you're almost always

01:19:37 ◼   ► using your laptop on known Wi-Fi networks, then fine, you don't need this.

01:19:41 ◼   ► And that's why most people don't need this.

01:19:43 ◼   ► But some of us do.

01:19:45 ◼   ► And for the few of us that would use this frequently, the experience of having a connection built in,

01:19:52 ◼   ► like you have on your phone and every iPad ever, the experience of having that option

01:19:58 ◼   ► versus having to tether to your phone is night and day.

01:20:02 ◼   ► Tethering to your phone feels like dial-up.

01:20:05 ◼   ► It feels like, okay, I've opened the computer up, but it's not on the internet, of course.

01:20:10 ◼   ► I have to tell the computer, go to the internet, connect to the internet, log on.

01:20:15 ◼   ► You have to say, and then you wait and you wait.

01:20:20 ◼   ► And then maybe if you're lucky, welcome, you've got mail.

01:20:24 ◼   ► Like it takes a while.

01:20:25 ◼   ► And it's just, it's just, it's, it's such a like back in time experience.

01:20:30 ◼   ► And with all of our amazing technology that we have these days, it feels ridiculous to

01:20:34 ◼   ► have that experience with like the latest Apple laptops, the latest iPhones.

01:20:39 ◼   ► We have tethering.

01:20:41 ◼   ► It's a service that we pay for.

01:20:43 ◼   ► Like we're allowed to do it.

01:20:45 ◼   ► We're not doing a trick.

01:20:45 ◼   ► We're allowed, this is a built-in feature.

01:20:47 ◼   ► It just is really half-assed and the experience of using it is, is not amazing.

01:20:52 ◼   ► What would be much more amazing.

01:20:54 ◼   ► Oh, I know you're also draining your phone battery doing this by the way.

01:20:57 ◼   ► So like usually when I'm on the train doing this, if I'm taking the train to the city,

01:21:01 ◼   ► usually I will have to then plug my phone in to a battery pack or the laptop or the cable

01:21:07 ◼   ► just to keep the phone topped up.

01:21:08 ◼   ► So I don't arrive at the city with a phone at 60%.

01:21:11 ◼   ► So like, it's just, it's everything about it is a compromise.

01:21:16 ◼   ► And that compromise is fine for people who hardly ever need it, who it's just an occasional

01:21:21 ◼   ► need.

01:21:21 ◼   ► But when it's a regular need, it sucks.

01:21:24 ◼   ► And there are so many better ways to do this.

01:21:26 ◼   ► So what would be great, which I hope we get this someday, you know, pray to, you know,

01:21:31 ◼   ► the spirit of Mark Gurman or whatever, hopefully we can have built-in cell modems in laptops.

01:21:37 ◼   ► How would this work?

01:21:39 ◼   ► The same way it works on your iPhone and your iPad.

01:21:42 ◼   ► It would just always be connected.

01:21:45 ◼   ► And every so often in the background, it could wake itself up while keeping the screen off

01:21:51 ◼   ► and download data.

01:21:53 ◼   ► There have been features to do this in macOS for a very long time, just not over cellular.

01:21:58 ◼   ► So that's what has to happen.

01:21:59 ◼   ► There are downsides to this.

01:22:00 ◼   ► The laptop would be more expensive.

01:22:02 ◼   ► You'd have to buy a data plan.

01:22:04 ◼   ► If you leave cellular on and you leave the laptop unplugged for a week, it will probably

01:22:08 ◼   ► drain itself.

01:22:08 ◼   ► That's all a trade-off that many of us would make because the utility of opening that laptop

01:22:17 ◼   ► and having it just be on the same way your phone is just on.

01:22:22 ◼   ► Like your phone is online.

01:22:23 ◼   ► When you pull it out of your pocket and wake it up, it's online already.

01:22:26 ◼   ► You don't have to tell it, go online and update your data.

01:22:28 ◼   ► It's already online.

01:22:29 ◼   ► And a few minutes ago, it did update its data.

01:22:31 ◼   ► So it's already there.

01:22:32 ◼   ► Such a different experience.

01:22:35 ◼   ► Why can't the Mac do that?

01:22:37 ◼   ► And there are no good reasons left.

01:22:40 ◼   ► So please, hopefully, Apple, if you can forgive me for all my comments earlier about your stupid

01:22:45 ◼   ► notarization thing.

01:22:46 ◼   ► Please, to the love of God, please give me a cellular laptop.

01:22:48 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:22:50 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:22:50 ◼   ► I don't even travel that much.

01:22:52 ◼   ► But having used a cellular iPad while traveling, that's all it takes to convince you.

01:22:56 ◼   ► Like, it sounds academic.

01:22:58 ◼   ► It sounds like, oh, whatever.

01:22:59 ◼   ► I'm sure it's better.

01:23:00 ◼   ► But does it really make a difference?

01:23:01 ◼   ► If you just use a cellular iPad when you're on the go, once you get used to that, it's

01:23:06 ◼   ► hard to go back to the other way.

01:23:08 ◼   ► Because it's just, and it's, the phone doesn't convince people.

01:23:11 ◼   ► It's like, well, of course, phones are always like that.

01:23:12 ◼   ► But computer things, like, but a cellular iPad is such a great, like, well, it's not really

01:23:16 ◼   ► a phone.

01:23:17 ◼   ► It's big.

01:23:17 ◼   ► And you're doing, maybe you have a keyboard connected to it or whatever.

01:23:20 ◼   ► And you look at it and you're like, oh, I see why tethering sucks now.

01:23:24 ◼   ► Because I don't have to think about it at all with my iPad.

01:23:26 ◼   ► It's just like my phone.

01:23:28 ◼   ► It's always on.

01:23:28 ◼   ► And, you know, once you, once you experience that, or I mean, maybe it's worse on PC laptops.

01:23:33 ◼   ► Some people say that, hey, if PC laptops are cellular, it's not good.

01:23:35 ◼   ► But I can tell you cellular on the iPad works as well as it does on the phone.

01:23:40 ◼   ► And if you have, if you use a cellular iPad, where you're actually using the cellular part

01:23:45 ◼   ► of it, it is a pretty strong convincer that you would want this on a Mac.

01:23:48 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:23:48 ◼   ► And by the way, like the argument that it's not very good on PC laptops, nothing is very

01:23:53 ◼   ► good on PC laptops.

01:23:53 ◼   ► So that's not a valid argument.

01:23:55 ◼   ► No argument here.

01:23:58 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:23:59 ◼   ► I mean, it's just, I would love it.

01:24:00 ◼   ► I would absolutely love it.

01:24:01 ◼   ► I would order one, you know, immediately if possible.

01:24:04 ◼   ► I would, you know, if I had just bought a MacBook Pro, which I did, what, two years ago?

01:24:08 ◼   ► It's an, I have an M3, so I think it was two years ago.

01:24:10 ◼   ► It doesn't matter.

01:24:11 ◼   ► Even if I've just bought one, I would immediately, you know, sell that to somebody or trade it

01:24:16 ◼   ► in and buy another if I could suddenly get a cellular on it.

01:24:18 ◼   ► But that's just me.

01:24:19 ◼   ► Also, like they already have a computer named MacBook Air.

01:24:24 ◼   ► The air prefix used to mean cellular in lots of different products, like, because you're using

01:24:29 ◼   ► waves over the air for your connectivity.

01:24:32 ◼   ► Like, it's a perfect name for a cellular laptop.

01:24:35 ◼   ► Come on.

01:24:36 ◼   ► That's all right.

01:24:38 ◼   ► Now, Stephen Swift writes, in episode 620, he mentioned issues when users do iPhone mirroring

01:24:43 ◼   ► on corporate computers, which made me wonder, how are people doing that?

01:24:46 ◼   ► Are they signing in with their personal iCloud accounts and their corporate Macs?

01:24:48 ◼   ► I've long wanted to take advantage of iPad Sidecar or iPhone mirroring, but my Mac is a corporate

01:24:53 ◼   ► machine.

01:24:53 ◼   ► Is it safe to log in with my personal iCloud account on my work Mac if I don't want my employer

01:24:58 ◼   ► to have access to my personal data?

01:25:00 ◼   ► My employer doesn't want their IP on my personal devices?

01:25:03 ◼   ► Do you know of any workarounds to use iPad Sidecar or universal controller or iPhone mirror across

01:25:07 ◼   ► iCloud accounts?

01:25:08 ◼   ► I wish Apple would set up some authorization mechanism that didn't rely on devices signed

01:25:13 ◼   ► into the same account.

01:25:14 ◼   ► I do agree with Stephen there.

01:25:16 ◼   ► Like, some sort of alternative auth would be nice, although I understand why Apple does

01:25:20 ◼   ► it the way they do.

01:25:21 ◼   ► For me, my last couple of jobby jobs, they were small firms that I trusted, which, yes,

01:25:28 ◼   ► everyone's starting to fire up their email clients and tell me why I should never trust

01:25:31 ◼   ► my employer.

01:25:31 ◼   ► That's true.

01:25:32 ◼   ► In the most recent one, the IT guy was a really good friend of mine, so I really, really trusted

01:25:39 ◼   ► him.

01:25:39 ◼   ► But if I was working at traditional corporate America, where I'm one cog in a machine that's

01:25:46 ◼   ► 30,000 cogs big or whatever, I would definitely feel very differently about it.

01:25:51 ◼   ► Another thing to consider is that, and I don't know how long this has been true, and it's

01:25:55 ◼   ► definitely true on the iPhone, and I think it's true on the Mac.

01:25:58 ◼   ► If your device is employer-owned, they can absolutely, without your permission, if they set it up to

01:26:07 ◼   ► allow this, they can wipe that machine, and you have nothing you can do about it.

01:26:12 ◼   ► You know, all your data is just gone.

01:26:15 ◼   ► And I get why that is.

01:26:16 ◼   ► Again, I don't really think that that's necessarily unreasonable.

01:26:19 ◼   ► But again, that would give me pause to log into anything personal on it.

01:26:24 ◼   ► So I don't know what I would say.

01:26:27 ◼   ► And I'm curious, John, as the one with the most recent corporate experience, and corporate

01:26:31 ◼   ► experience with a much bigger corporation than I was used to, how did you handle this?

01:26:36 ◼   ► Was I nuts to do this when I was in my little baby jobs?

01:26:39 ◼   ► Well, to answer your master's question, are people signing in with their personal Apple

01:26:42 ◼   ► IDs at work?

01:26:43 ◼   ► Yes, they are.

01:26:44 ◼   ► People do that all the time.

01:26:45 ◼   ► It's not a good idea.

01:26:46 ◼   ► You shouldn't do it.

01:26:48 ◼   ► But people do it because it's convenient.

01:26:50 ◼   ► It's not a good idea for so many reasons.

01:26:51 ◼   ► Casey just outlined some of them.

01:26:53 ◼   ► There are many more reasons.

01:26:54 ◼   ► It's probably even against your company's policy if you're at a big company.

01:26:57 ◼   ► But people want their stuff, and they want access to their stuff.

01:27:01 ◼   ► And so they do this, and it's not a good idea.

01:27:04 ◼   ► They might do it to get access to universal control or sidecar or whatever.

01:27:07 ◼   ► And it is kind of annoying that Apple's handling of, we keep saying Apple IDs.

01:27:14 ◼   ► It's Apple account now.

01:27:15 ◼   ► Apple's handling of Apple accounts is so primitive.

01:27:20 ◼   ► Like, Apple accounts slash Apple IDs are not new.

01:27:24 ◼   ► They've been around for, I believe, decades at this point.

01:27:27 ◼   ► Multiple decades, probably.

01:27:28 ◼   ► And yet, the ability to deal with them in any reasonable fashion is just so limited.

01:27:37 ◼   ► Can you merge two Apple accounts?

01:27:39 ◼   ► Can you transfer things from one Apple account to another?

01:27:42 ◼   ► Can you be signed into multiple Apple accounts at a time?

01:27:45 ◼   ► And you would be saying, well, these are complications.

01:27:46 ◼   ► They should never do that.

01:27:47 ◼   ► It's too complicated.

01:27:48 ◼   ► No, you don't do that the first year or the fifth year or the 10th year.

01:27:52 ◼   ► But the 25th year, maybe you should have the ability to merge Apple IDs, right?

01:27:57 ◼   ► Or maybe you should have the ability to authenticate with some of your services without an Apple ID.

01:28:02 ◼   ► Like, in some respects, they do.

01:28:03 ◼   ► Like, I believe they still support VPN with password instead of, like, screen sharing through Apple ID stuff.

01:28:08 ◼   ► But they love the simplifying assumption of everything's on the same Apple ID.

01:28:13 ◼   ► It drives me bananas here just within this room, within this physical room.

01:28:17 ◼   ► I've complained about this before, trying to airdrop things.

01:28:20 ◼   ► I walk over to my wife's computer, and I want to airdrop something.

01:28:23 ◼   ► It's like, oh, I can't airdrop it from my phone because she's on her account on her computer, and I'm on my account on my thing.

01:28:27 ◼   ► And I try to airdrop it, and for some reason, it doesn't see her or whatever.

01:28:30 ◼   ► And it's just like, I've got to be logged into this, my account to get the thing.

01:28:34 ◼   ► It's just, that's why apps like, I saw this go by recently.

01:28:37 ◼   ► I forget who originally suggested this.

01:28:38 ◼   ► Somebody, but Gruber posted about it.

01:28:40 ◼   ► Like, essentially an app that does what airdrop does.

01:28:42 ◼   ► Yeah, it was Underscore that brought it up, then Gruber picked it up.

01:28:44 ◼   ► There you go.

01:28:45 ◼   ► But it's not Apple.

01:28:46 ◼   ► It is a thing that says, we don't care what your Apple ID is.

01:28:50 ◼   ► We have our own system for doing it.

01:28:51 ◼   ► Airdrop, it's like, oh, isn't airdrop great?

01:28:54 ◼   ► It's like, yeah, sure.

01:28:55 ◼   ► If you live in a world where every one of your devices is signed into your Apple ID, it's great.

01:28:58 ◼   ► But I don't live in that world, and so it sucks.

01:29:01 ◼   ► And I know you don't have to be on the same Apple ID to airdrop.

01:29:05 ◼   ► You should just, they're in your contacts, and it should work.

01:29:07 ◼   ► Oh, should, yeah, it should work, but it doesn't.

01:29:10 ◼   ► I don't know why it doesn't.

01:29:11 ◼   ► It just doesn't, and it drives me insane.

01:29:14 ◼   ► So, this is another example of that.

01:29:17 ◼   ► I want to use this cool feature, you know, universal control or sidecar.

01:29:21 ◼   ► These features that you think of these as like, the Mac has this feature.

01:29:24 ◼   ► The iPad has this feature.

01:29:26 ◼   ► It's like, no, this is all threaded through Apple IDs.

01:29:28 ◼   ► And if you're not on the same Apple ID and all these devices, it's like, nope, sorry, you don't get to use this.

01:29:34 ◼   ► And I understand it's a simplifying assumption for the implementation,

01:29:36 ◼   ► but I feel like Apple should set the bar a little bit higher for itself and say,

01:29:40 ◼   ► in version 2, in version 3, in version 17, maybe think about the complication of, you know, people having different accounts.

01:29:49 ◼   ► Even so simple as like a feedback that I filed, I think, a couple years ago.

01:29:51 ◼   ► My complication of, my difficulty trying to do simple file sharing in the finder between two computers that are, you know, seven feet from each other.

01:30:01 ◼   ► But, oh no, I want to sign into my wife's computer where I do have an account, but I want to sign in with her account.

01:30:09 ◼   ► And I want to have like an alias that will correctly pull the password for her account that's in my keychain from it.

01:30:14 ◼   ► Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope.

01:30:17 ◼   ► You're going to type in that password every time.

01:30:18 ◼   ► It will not remember it.

01:30:20 ◼   ► There's a checkbox that says put this into the keychain, but that checkbox does nothing.

01:30:24 ◼   ► Because every time you want to open that alias or double click that thing or mount that thing or whatever, it's going to reprompt you.

01:30:29 ◼   ► And I filed the bug out there like, oh, you should just leave the username out of the SMB URL you're connecting to,

01:30:35 ◼   ► and then it will pull from the keychain.

01:30:37 ◼   ► It's like, yeah, it'll pull my password on my account from the keychain, but I want to log into her account.

01:30:41 ◼   ► Like, they can't get it through their idea of like, why in the world would you log into someone else's account on their Mac when you mount that share?

01:30:48 ◼   ► It's like, because I want to put like...

01:30:49 ◼   ► I want to go to a good video store.

01:30:50 ◼   ► I want to put my 1099s into her tax folder.

01:30:54 ◼   ► That's what I want to do, right?

01:30:55 ◼   ► It's in her account.

01:30:56 ◼   ► It's in her documents folder.

01:30:57 ◼   ► Oh, my God.

01:30:59 ◼   ► Like, these are complications.

01:31:02 ◼   ► These are things you don't do when you first roll stuff out, but you should eventually get to them, and Apple just never gets to them.

01:31:08 ◼   ► And so, for this situation, I don't specifically know.

01:31:11 ◼   ► I think...

01:31:11 ◼   ► What's the Sidecar one?

01:31:12 ◼   ► There is some app that, like, Sidecar was inspired by that I can no longer remember the name of that you might be able to try that I think is not tied to Apple ID.

01:31:20 ◼   ► Oh, yeah, they sold little dongles.

01:31:21 ◼   ► What did I forget the name?

01:31:22 ◼   ► Oh, God bless you.

01:31:24 ◼   ► Chat room will tell us what it is in a second.

01:31:25 ◼   ► Luma, Luma, Fusion, something like that?

01:31:27 ◼   ► Yeah, maybe that is, right?

01:31:28 ◼   ► And Universal Control, there are...

01:31:31 ◼   ► Before Universal Control, there were a bunch of things from, like, the Linux world that also worked on Mac that did something similar to let you, like, move your pointer from one machine to the other.

01:31:40 ◼   ► None of those things, with the exception of maybe that Sidecar alternative, like, none of those old things, especially, like, the cursor control stuff or the KVM things or whatever, they don't have, in theory, the polish that the Apple stuff supposedly has when everything is perfect and just right in a demo, but...

01:31:54 ◼   ► Yeah, Luna Display.

01:31:55 ◼   ► Thank you, long form in the chat.

01:31:56 ◼   ► Sorry.

01:31:57 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:31:57 ◼   ► Luna Display.

01:31:58 ◼   ► There we go.

01:31:58 ◼   ► We'll try to find a link for that.

01:32:01 ◼   ► They don't have the polish that Apple stuff does in the best case, but a lot of times, as people, as Undersore was discovering and Gruber was discovering, with, like, the thing that does AirDrop but does it in a way that actually always works reliably, you realize how finicky AirDrop is when you get a third-party app with no specific integration that you have to manually launch, but you know what?

01:32:20 ◼   ► It just works every time.

01:32:22 ◼   ► That kind of reliability has been absent from a lot of these services.

01:32:25 ◼   ► Someone was just talking in another one of my Slacks about the ongoing inability of screen time to track the time that you spend on your devices.

01:32:34 ◼   ► The thing that it's supposed to do, as Steve Jobs would say, well, why the F doesn't it do that?

01:32:38 ◼   ► Right?

01:32:39 ◼   ► I know what it's supposed to do, but in practice, if you look at your screen time stats on all your different devices, A, they never agree with each other, and B, none of them match anything having to do with reality.

01:32:51 ◼   ► Like, they might as well just be random numbers in bar charts.

01:32:54 ◼   ► Like, and forget about, like, across, like, oh, well, let me see what my screen times my kids have been using.

01:32:59 ◼   ► I can tell you that never matched reality or across multiple devices either.

01:33:02 ◼   ► Like, I think screen time is just a random number generator.

01:33:05 ◼   ► It's just a bunch of random numbers and a bunch of bar charts based on those random numbers because anybody who has ever tried to look at it and glean information and match it up with their experience of what they actually did with their device says, wait a second.

01:33:16 ◼   ► A, these numbers don't match what I did, and B, they don't even add up.

01:33:20 ◼   ► It doesn't make any sense.

01:33:21 ◼   ► I wouldn't be surprised if it would say you had, like, 36 hours of screen time during a single day.

01:33:25 ◼   ► Like, stuff like that.

01:33:28 ◼   ► Like, you can roll out the feature and advertise it and put a name on it and have a screen on it, but, like, if it doesn't actually work, people just start ignoring it and it just becomes noise.

01:33:36 ◼   ► This is what I think about the invite apps, too.

01:33:38 ◼   ► It's like, it's good for Apple to have a first-party app in its ecosystem to let people do invitations.

01:33:42 ◼   ► It's bad for them to roll one out and then lose interest in it.

01:33:46 ◼   ► So, anyway, sorry, Stephen, we couldn't help you more other than the chat room remembering Luna Display.

01:33:51 ◼   ► There are third-party things that you can probably do some of this stuff in.

01:33:55 ◼   ► I do not suggest signing up with your Apple ID on your work computer.

01:33:58 ◼   ► I know you want to.

01:33:59 ◼   ► Everybody wants to.

01:34:00 ◼   ► Don't do it.

01:34:01 ◼   ► Oh, actually, the chat room, who is Chris Vanazzo, also brings up Synergy, which I used to use ages ago.

01:34:07 ◼   ► There you go.

01:34:07 ◼   ► That's the one I was thinking of.

01:34:08 ◼   ► That predates universal control.

01:34:10 ◼   ► Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:34:11 ◼   ► So, this is, you know, using the same keyboard and mouse across multiple different devices.

01:34:15 ◼   ► And they can be different platforms, the hologram or all.

01:34:17 ◼   ► It works pretty well the last time I tried it, which, again, hasn't been for years.

01:34:22 ◼   ► But that's another option if you wanted to do something that isn't quite as built-in and seamless as universal control.

01:34:29 ◼   ► That doesn't go to an iPad, though, right?

01:34:31 ◼   ► Because I'm assuming you can't even run Synergy on an iPad.

01:34:33 ◼   ► That might be true, actually.

01:34:35 ◼   ► I think I only had used it with, like, full-on computers.

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01:34:49 ◼   ► One of the many perks of membership, besides our exclusive content and other fun stuff, is ATP Overtime.

01:34:55 ◼   ► This is a bonus topic every week.

01:34:57 ◼   ► This week on Overtime, we're going to be doing some more Sonos discussion.

01:35:00 ◼   ► There was an article that came out, I think, this morning or yesterday about Sonos and their codenamed Pinewood Video Player.

01:35:08 ◼   ► It sounds like it might be a high-end competitor to the Apple TV.

01:35:11 ◼   ► So that sounds real interesting.

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01:35:19 ◼   ► Thank you so much, and we'll talk to you next week.

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01:35:50 ◼   ► And if you're into Mastodon, you can follow them at

01:35:56 ◼   ► I am happy for more than you.

01:36:02 ◼   ► I am happy for more than you.

01:36:04 ◼   ► I am happy for more than one reason tonight.

01:36:13 ◼   ► In part, I am happy because I had the barbecue brisket earlier and it was delicious.

01:36:23 ◼   ► In part, because you're here talking to your two best friends.

01:36:34 ◼   ► Yes, definitely that.

01:36:35 ◼   ► Yes.

01:36:35 ◼   ► That's true.

01:36:37 ◼   ► Thank you.

01:36:37 ◼   ► So three reasons.

01:36:38 ◼   ► Okay.

01:36:39 ◼   ► The third reason is that I spent this past weekend wiring the restaurant.

01:36:47 ◼   ► Oh, this is our first restaurant update, if I'm not mistaken.

01:36:50 ◼   ► It is.

01:36:50 ◼   ► And more importantly, unwiring the restaurant.

01:36:54 ◼   ► This is, you know, it's a small bar restaurant that is, you know, on Fire Island.

01:37:00 ◼   ► Everything on Fire Island is kind of, you know, slapdash, you know, because you can't always get supplies.

01:37:05 ◼   ► And it's, you kind of just got to deal with what you have.

01:37:08 ◼   ► And everything is, like, small and old.

01:37:10 ◼   ► The environment is highly corrosive.

01:37:12 ◼   ► Like, the air is salty from being near the ocean.

01:37:14 ◼   ► And so, like, nothing lasts, you know, there.

01:37:17 ◼   ► And it's a very hostile environment for electronics and wires and things like that.

01:37:23 ◼   ► This restaurant also, sometimes, like, on weekend nights, will have DJs come in and, like, plug into the sound system.

01:37:29 ◼   ► And really get it bumping for late night bar business.

01:37:32 ◼   ► I got in there and the DJ system, the music system in general, you know, there's, like, regular speakers for playing music during, you know, regular, you know, dining hours.

01:37:41 ◼   ► Like, you know, small speakers.

01:37:42 ◼   ► And then there's, like, the big DJ speakers.

01:37:44 ◼   ► And I get in there and, like, I'm looking at this mess of wires.

01:37:49 ◼   ► Oh, and, of course, over time, the restaurant has had various point-of-sale systems.

01:37:54 ◼   ► And so there's, like, you know, various network wires running around.

01:37:59 ◼   ► Every single network wire I see is, like, the thinnest of thin Cat 5e cable where – and the ends are, like, a little bit pulling out of the connectors and, like, a little bit fraying.

01:38:10 ◼   ► And I'm, like, that's not amazing.

01:38:13 ◼   ► And then the audio cables are just a massive – like, there's a thick bundle of cables running throughout the entire – like, running along the ceiling for half the restaurant because, like, that's where the DJ cables plug in from across the way.

01:38:29 ◼   ► But then, you know, over time, some cable would flake out or get static or, you know, just the connectors would rust or whatever or it would get crushed.

01:38:37 ◼   ► And so the cable would kind of stop working.

01:38:39 ◼   ► So they would just run another one.

01:38:40 ◼   ► But because of the rule of audio systems, like, once it works, don't touch it, nobody ever removed the old wires.

01:38:47 ◼   ► So what I have inherited here is just an absolute mess of tons of wires everywhere, almost all of them what I would consider legacy wires.

01:38:59 ◼   ► And there is a security camera system.

01:39:02 ◼   ► There are 16 cameras.

01:39:04 ◼   ► It's an old coax system, which means there are 16 wires.

01:39:10 ◼   ► Oh, my.

01:39:10 ◼   ► There's one for each camera.

01:39:12 ◼   ► And they all go to, like, the main box, like, the DVR thing that records them.

01:39:18 ◼   ► And so there are these huge wire bundles.

01:39:22 ◼   ► Like, just over time, this has been there for, like, 40 years.

01:39:26 ◼   ► And over time, you know, when stuff breaks in a restaurant, you don't have a ton of time to, like, let me look at Amazon and find the best option and order it and wait for it to arrive on the island, which could be a few days.

01:39:38 ◼   ► Like, no.

01:39:38 ◼   ► If something breaks in the middle of service, you kind of slapdash fix it however you possibly can because you don't have time.

01:39:44 ◼   ► Like, so I get here.

01:39:46 ◼   ► I had the DJ who's been there.

01:39:48 ◼   ► He's a friend of mine.

01:39:49 ◼   ► He's been DJing there for, like, 20 years.

01:39:51 ◼   ► I had him come and, like, explain the system to me.

01:39:53 ◼   ► It's a rack.

01:39:54 ◼   ► There's, fortunately, you know, like a standard equipment rack, but it was, you know, full of DJ gear.

01:39:58 ◼   ► There's, like, you know, a little mixer and some compressor and a limiter and a bunch of big DJ speaker amps.

01:40:04 ◼   ► And the DJ comes, explains the system to me.

01:40:06 ◼   ► And he's like, well, that doesn't work.

01:40:08 ◼   ► That doesn't work.

01:40:08 ◼   ► He's like, but you got to be careful because this is your business, not your home.

01:40:14 ◼   ► And if it's your home, you'd be tempted to, like, buy all new stuff.

01:40:17 ◼   ► And I'm like, yeah, that sounds like me.

01:40:19 ◼   ► He's like, but here, you got to be careful with the business.

01:40:23 ◼   ► You can't just do that because you'll eat into all your profit and you won't make any money.

01:40:27 ◼   ► And I was like, that's good.

01:40:28 ◼   ► Thank you.

01:40:29 ◼   ► I'll try to have that self-control.

01:40:30 ◼   ► Thank you.

01:40:30 ◼   ► And he's like, all right.

01:40:31 ◼   ► So, you're going to be tempted to tear all this stuff out, but don't do it.

01:40:34 ◼   ► I'm like, all right, all right.

01:40:35 ◼   ► So, over the next, you know, half hour, he's walking me through the system.

01:40:39 ◼   ► He's like, all right, here's what these speakers do.

01:40:40 ◼   ► I would suggest, you know, replacing this subwoofer here.

01:40:43 ◼   ► You should move this if you can.

01:40:45 ◼   ► You know, this wire, this, I strung this up 15 years ago for a temporary thing.

01:40:49 ◼   ► We don't need it anymore.

01:40:50 ◼   ► That one doesn't work anymore.

01:40:51 ◼   ► That one doesn't work anymore.

01:40:52 ◼   ► Within a half hour, he was saying, you know what?

01:40:56 ◼   ► Replace it all.

01:40:57 ◼   ► Cut it.

01:40:57 ◼   ► Just tear it all.

01:40:58 ◼   ► Get all new stuff.

01:41:00 ◼   ► Replace it all.

01:41:01 ◼   ► So, anyway, some of the processes are replacing some of it.

01:41:06 ◼   ► Not all of it.

01:41:07 ◼   ► This past weekend was when I decided, let me tackle network wiring and any wires that are

01:41:14 ◼   ► currently not in use.

01:41:15 ◼   ► And I wanted to rewire.

01:41:17 ◼   ► I wanted to run all new CAT 6A and CAT 6 wiring, you know, all new throughout the place.

01:41:23 ◼   ► Get rid of all of the many old wires that are not in use.

01:41:27 ◼   ► There's like old phone wires that aren't in use anymore.

01:41:30 ◼   ► There's old coaxial cable wires that aren't in use anymore.

01:41:32 ◼   ► Like, so many.

01:41:34 ◼   ► I filled a garbage can.

01:41:35 ◼   ► Like, a restaurant.

01:41:37 ◼   ► I filled a restaurant garbage can with wires that I had pulled out of the walls and down from

01:41:42 ◼   ► the zip ties.

01:41:43 ◼   ► And I must have cut 200 zip ties to, you know, to take their wires down and, like, replace

01:41:48 ◼   ► them over the course of the weekend.

01:41:50 ◼   ► Let me tell you, as a nerd, this was the most satisfying thing I think I've ever done.

01:41:56 ◼   ► Because it's like deleting code, but in real life.

01:41:58 ◼   ► Like, just being able to take down, like, old crappy or obsolete or unused cables and replace

01:42:05 ◼   ► huge wire bundles with, like, one new wire that's the right length and high quality and

01:42:12 ◼   ► have it just work.

01:42:13 ◼   ► Like, oh, what a pleasure this has been.

01:42:15 ◼   ► I'm having so much fun.

01:42:17 ◼   ► Like, and I even, this is, so there's this one, there's a huge cable run that runs from

01:42:24 ◼   ► where the TV system starts, like, behind the bar.

01:42:28 ◼   ► And then the whole bunch of stuff runs, like, around the side of the restaurant to where

01:42:31 ◼   ► the DJs plug in and where there's another TV on the other side.

01:42:35 ◼   ► And there's this big, thick bundle of, like, nine cables that goes across that.

01:42:40 ◼   ► And I think I have a way to convert those nine cables to zero cables.

01:42:45 ◼   ► Like, everywhere else, I'm getting reductions.

01:42:47 ◼   ► But this, I think I'm going to remove this entire thing.

01:42:49 ◼   ► I've known for a while, and this is going to get everybody writing in, I've known for

01:42:55 ◼   ► a while, there's a system called Dante for audio that basically routes audio signals over

01:43:01 ◼   ► your network.

01:43:02 ◼   ► So Dante adapters have, like, you know, XLR plugs on one end and a network hole on the

01:43:07 ◼   ► other.

01:43:07 ◼   ► And then you run this software that's, like, Dante controller software on a computer somewhere

01:43:11 ◼   ► and that you can, like, route things across the network.

01:43:14 ◼   ► And all this time, I thought, like, I had heard about Dante audio systems and I thought it

01:43:20 ◼   ► was just for, like, big, like, professional mixers installed in venues and stuff.

01:43:25 ◼   ► But it turns out, I think, I mean, I'm going to find out in a couple days, it turns out

01:43:30 ◼   ► that, like, you can just get, like, a $200 adapter and run the apparently free software

01:43:36 ◼   ► on a computer and that's it.

01:43:38 ◼   ► So that means I can run the audio signals from the DJ area over the network to the speaker

01:43:47 ◼   ► amps and the mixer that are, like, on the other side of the restaurant.

01:43:49 ◼   ► So right now there are, like, seven XLR cables that are snaked all over the restaurant.

01:43:56 ◼   ► And I think I can run that over the network, which will mean there will be zero cables in

01:44:02 ◼   ► a huge area where there used to be a lot because I can just, like, have a network drop down from

01:44:06 ◼   ► the ceiling for that.

01:44:07 ◼   ► So I am having so much fun with, like, deleting wires and deleting old, like, you know, brackets

01:44:15 ◼   ► and mounts and, you know, running, of course, you know, POE powered as much as possible.

01:44:20 ◼   ► So I'm getting rid of power adapters in a lot of places, too.

01:44:22 ◼   ► Like, this is glorious.

01:44:24 ◼   ► I know running a restaurant is going to be really hard, but this is, like, I can do this

01:44:31 ◼   ► part.

01:44:31 ◼   ► This is my comfort zone.

01:44:33 ◼   ► Like, the rest of it, yeah.

01:44:35 ◼   ► But also the rest of it I have, like, there are four people running this restaurant.

01:44:38 ◼   ► There's me, Tiff, manager, and assistant manager.

01:44:41 ◼   ► So there's four people who can do the day-to-day operations.

01:44:45 ◼   ► But I can do the wiring, and I'm really good at wires.

01:44:48 ◼   ► So I'm just, I'm so happy doing this stuff so far.

01:44:54 ◼   ► And it's, like, like, I just figured out the Dante thing, like, yesterday.

01:44:57 ◼   ► So I'm, like, oh, my God.

01:44:58 ◼   ► Now I can go back there and, like, delete five more wires, and especially, like, five of the

01:45:02 ◼   ► biggest wires.

01:45:03 ◼   ► And so I'm going to play with this stuff and see how it goes.

01:45:05 ◼   ► But as, like, an area of tech, like, I play with a lot of tech for myself.

01:45:13 ◼   ► And some of it I have to, like, use for, quote, my work.

01:45:16 ◼   ► You know, like, when I get a microphone or sound gear to do podcasting, like, that's, I'm doing

01:45:21 ◼   ► that for my work, right?

01:45:21 ◼   ► But for the most part, I mostly don't apply tech to many applications besides tech for its

01:45:30 ◼   ► own sake or recording podcasts or programming.

01:45:33 ◼   ► So when I have this opportunity now that I have an opportunity to apply tech and actually

01:45:40 ◼   ► use it for, like, useful work that is not one of those areas that I've always been doing,

01:45:45 ◼   ► it's actually, it's very fulfilling.

01:45:47 ◼   ► It's like, oh, I can fix this.

01:45:49 ◼   ► Like, they've always complained that the Wi-Fi coverage in the restaurant was terrible because

01:45:53 ◼   ► the way it's arranged, there's, like, the kitchen on one side, the dining room on the other, and

01:45:57 ◼   ► between the kitchen and dining room are giant walk-in freezers and fridges, which are giant

01:46:03 ◼   ► metal boxes.

01:46:04 ◼   ► So there's almost no way to cover the entire area with one or even two access points.

01:46:11 ◼   ► And, you know, they've been struggling because they weren't nerds like me, and they would just

01:46:15 ◼   ► get whatever the POS vendor would give them, like, some weird Cisco Meraki thing, and they,

01:46:19 ◼   ► you know, it was never well placed because they're not experts in placing them, and they would never

01:46:22 ◼   ► have had enough of them.

01:46:23 ◼   ► So I get in there, and I install a Ubiquiti system.

01:46:26 ◼   ► Thank God.

01:46:28 ◼   ► Thank, thank Ubiquiti.

01:46:30 ◼   ► Like, it is so nice and so easy and relatively inexpensive compared to other professional quality

01:46:36 ◼   ► gear, like, and I can put an AP wherever I want, and I can run these network drops, and

01:46:40 ◼   ► I can have, like, you know, these POE switches to power everything with, like, the one UPS in

01:46:46 ◼   ► the rack that's powering all my APs and keeping them up.

01:46:48 ◼   ► It's so much fun doing this part.

01:46:52 ◼   ► I know the rest of it's going to be less fun in different ways, but this part is really

01:46:55 ◼   ► frickin' fun, and I'm really enjoying it.

01:46:57 ◼   ► That's awesome.

01:46:58 ◼   ► No, I'm very excited, and I would love to see photos, even if you can't share them publicly.

01:47:05 ◼   ► Sorry, everyone.

01:47:06 ◼   ► I would love to see photos of everything when it's all installed.

01:47:09 ◼   ► What's your timetable?

01:47:11 ◼   ► When does the restaurant open for the summer?

01:47:13 ◼   ► We basically, we have, like, about a month before, like, a soft open.

01:47:18 ◼   ► It's a soft open for St. Patrick's Day and then a full open in late April.

01:47:22 ◼   ► Oh, I didn't realize it was for my birthday.

01:47:24 ◼   ► That's very kind of you.

01:47:24 ◼   ► Am I coming up for that?

01:47:26 ◼   ► Are you?

01:47:26 ◼   ► I don't think so, but thank you for offering.

01:47:30 ◼   ► Please make sure you have plenty of green beer.

01:47:32 ◼   ► No, that's super fun and super awesome.

01:47:35 ◼   ► And, you know, it is, you said it just a moment ago, and it's so true.

01:47:40 ◼   ► So much of what I do with my computer and with my home assistant tinkering is just to scratch an itch and just to give myself an outlet for my nervous energy.

01:47:50 ◼   ► But it is just deeply satisfying when you can use your skills, which you've either honed professionally or because of, you know, your own hobbies or what have you, to actually improve something or someone's life.

01:48:04 ◼   ► And it is such a satisfying thing.

01:48:06 ◼   ► And we nerds, I would argue we don't get it as often as we should.

01:48:10 ◼   ► And it's so great to be able to have that moment.

01:48:14 ◼   ► So I'm having a lot of fun living vicariously through you, at least for this part.

01:48:18 ◼   ► Once the summer rolls around, I'm not so sure I want to live vicariously through you anymore.

01:48:21 ◼   ► But for now, it's very fun.

01:48:23 ◼   ► I'm even finding other areas like, I mean, you know, it turns out I have opinions about restaurants because I go to restaurants.

01:48:29 ◼   ► So, you know, I'm finding other areas that I'm able to, like, you know, provide some useful feedback or a good idea here and there.

01:48:35 ◼   ► You know, like earlier today, I had to replace two coffee machines.

01:48:40 ◼   ► I have like a little espresso, like an espresso kind of pod maker for because some of the cocktails, like, you know, espresso martinis, some cocktails use espresso.

01:48:47 ◼   ► So I had to replace that and I had to get a new one of those, like, big bun commercial, you know, coffee brewers for the back for mostly for staff.

01:48:56 ◼   ► And, like, I knew because, you know, the old one's broken.

01:48:59 ◼   ► The manager, quote, wants to throw it in the bay.

01:49:02 ◼   ► So I said, all right, you can throw the old one in the bay because the old one, the old coffee maker, is one of those that you see in every diner.

01:49:09 ◼   ► It has, like, you know, the bun machine with the round hot plates that you put the coffee pots on after they're brewed.

01:49:16 ◼   ► And you have this big glass coffee carafe, you know, the orange ones for decaf and, you know, those things.

01:49:22 ◼   ► And I know from being a coffee nerd that when you have a hot plate keeping the coffee warm, it makes it taste horrific.

01:49:29 ◼   ► And so I'm like, if we're replacing that, they make ones that have thermal carafe, which it just brews into, like, an insulated carafe that keeps the coffee warm.

01:49:39 ◼   ► And by insulation, not by continuous heat.

01:49:41 ◼   ► And so I asked the managers, like, hey, you know, would this work for our needs?

01:49:46 ◼   ► And they said yes.

01:49:48 ◼   ► I'm like, great.

01:49:48 ◼   ► I'll get a better coffee machine, like, because I know about coffee.