Upgrade

00:00:00 ◼   ► [Music]

00:00:08 ◼   ► From Relay, this is Upgrade, episode 546.

00:00:13 ◼   ► Today's show is brought to you by Ecamm, Oracle, and ExpressVPN.

00:00:18 ◼   ► It is January 13th, 2025.

00:00:21 ◼   ► My name is Mike Hurley, and I'm joined by Jason Snow. Hi, Jason.

00:00:25 ◼   ► Mike Hurley, it's amazing that this is episode 546,

00:00:28 ◼   ► and just to let people in on a little behind-the-scenes secret,

00:00:31 ◼   ► the document said 545, and Mike said 546,

00:00:35 ◼   ► and I got really freaked out and had to go to relay.fm/upgrade

00:00:39 ◼   ► to make sure that it was indeed, but we already did 545.

00:00:43 ◼   ► That one's in the can. This is 546, baby.

00:00:46 ◼   ► Well, I would take it further behind the scenes and say,

00:00:49 ◼   ► if you thought my energy was strange during the intro there,

00:00:52 ◼   ► it's because I was clicking around tabs

00:00:53 ◼   ► to make sure it was episode 546 or 545, so, you know, that's how it works.

00:00:58 ◼   ► I hope you're feeling better. You sound better.

00:01:02 ◼   ► Yeah, I feel much better. I feel much, much better this week,

00:01:05 ◼   ► but we haven't got time for that.

00:01:07 ◼   ► If people... I've just got one little follow-out here,

00:01:10 ◼   ► which is if people would like to enjoy a podcast

00:01:12 ◼   ► in which two-thirds of the hosts are sick,

00:01:14 ◼   ► and therefore the non-sick host has to take over an unaccustomed role

00:01:20 ◼   ► as the lead host, I recommend last week's episode of Connected.

00:01:23 ◼   ► Also, if you like reading rules. Reading rules, there's a lot of those.

00:01:26 ◼   ► Reading rules and not fully understanding them.

00:01:28 ◼   ► I think that's last week's episode of Connected.

00:01:31 ◼   ► Well, a ringing endorsement.

00:01:32 ◼   ► I mean, who wouldn't want to listen to a podcast episode

00:01:34 ◼   ► where two-thirds of the people are sick

00:01:36 ◼   ► and the other person was taken on a job that you hadn't taken on before?

00:01:38 ◼   ► I appear on that episode from a phone call from my Apple Watch

00:01:44 ◼   ► while walking the dog.

00:01:45 ◼   ► You do. That was very helpful.

00:01:47 ◼   ► That was one of those things which I see this in other podcasts

00:01:50 ◼   ► and TV all the time.

00:01:51 ◼   ► I was talking to you.

00:01:52 ◼   ► You couldn't hear me because you were on the phone to Steven,

00:01:55 ◼   ► but I kept addressing you, but that wasn't helpful.

00:01:58 ◼   ► No. No.

00:02:00 ◼   ► Now it is time for Snell Talk.

00:02:02 ◼   ► No, now it is time for Snell Talk.

00:02:03 ◼   ► I've already started.

00:02:04 ◼   ► Sriram wants to know, "Do you guys like to hear your own voice

00:02:08 ◼   ► when editing podcasts?

00:02:10 ◼   ► I do not like the sounds of recordings which I host."

00:02:13 ◼   ► Okay.

00:02:15 ◼   ► I like that Sriram says when editing podcasts

00:02:19 ◼   ► and not like when recording podcasts,

00:02:20 ◼   ► because obviously we like that because we do podcasts.

00:02:23 ◼   ► The answer is I actually was in...

00:02:26 ◼   ► We had a radio station in my high school,

00:02:28 ◼   ► and so I did a radio class,

00:02:31 ◼   ► and then I hosted a radio show weekly for a year,

00:02:35 ◼   ► my junior year in high school.

00:02:37 ◼   ► And between those things and your recording promos

00:02:40 ◼   ► and you're learning how to read like voiceovers

00:02:43 ◼   ► and cold reads and all those things,

00:02:46 ◼   ► which I never thought would be a major part of my career.

00:02:49 ◼   ► I think about it literally every time I do an ad read.

00:02:52 ◼   ► I think about that class.

00:02:54 ◼   ► Anyway, it got me over listening to my voice real fast.

00:02:57 ◼   ► And then I also made a lot of videos in high school.

00:02:59 ◼   ► I was doing video for years

00:03:01 ◼   ► and doing lots of editing of videos.

00:03:02 ◼   ► And I just, I got over it.

00:03:05 ◼   ► Even before the era of podcasting, I was over it.

00:03:08 ◼   ► And I find it almost charming now when people say,

00:03:11 ◼   ► "Oh, I just don't like to listen back

00:03:13 ◼   ► 'cause I don't like the sound of my own voice."

00:03:14 ◼   ► And I just, I mean, I left that behind so long ago now

00:03:18 ◼   ► that I just, I'm just over it.

00:03:20 ◼   ► - It's not so far from me, but it is far, right?

00:03:23 ◼   ► Like it's, I don't know.

00:03:24 ◼   ► I think I got used to it like 13 years ago.

00:03:27 ◼   ► I've actually come all the way around on it now though,

00:03:30 ◼   ► where I am now very sensitive

00:03:33 ◼   ► to my voice sounding different.

00:03:36 ◼   ► So I am so used to the sound of my own voice

00:03:39 ◼   ► from editing myself and that kind of thing.

00:03:41 ◼   ► That if either like last week when I sounded sick

00:03:45 ◼   ► or if my audio, like from a podcast

00:03:48 ◼   ► that has been compressed in a way,

00:03:50 ◼   ► I am very sensitive to that.

00:03:52 ◼   ► I have a very good sense now of how my voice should sound

00:03:57 ◼   ► that I get very freaked out if I hear it done differently.

00:03:59 ◼   ► Similarly, I don't particularly like hearing to my voice

00:04:02 ◼   ► sped up in any way, like if you were to listen

00:04:05 ◼   ► to a podcast in high speed, 'cause it just sounds wrong.

00:04:09 ◼   ► - Sounds wrong.

00:04:09 ◼   ► That's right.

00:04:10 ◼   ► So last week must've been really rough for you.

00:04:12 ◼   ► - It was.

00:04:12 ◼   ► It was pretty bad.

00:04:14 ◼   ► Didn't enjoy it.

00:04:16 ◼   ► - If you would like to send in a question of your own

00:04:18 ◼   ► for us to answer on a future episode of the show,

00:04:20 ◼   ► please go to upgradefeedback.com.

00:04:22 ◼   ► And thank you to Sreeam for this question.

00:04:25 ◼   ► We have some followup.

00:04:26 ◼   ► We have lots of followup.

00:04:27 ◼   ► We have a response from the Bebonic company, the BBC.

00:04:30 ◼   ► - Oh yes.

00:04:31 ◼   ► - They shook a response out of Apple

00:04:33 ◼   ► over Apple Intelligence notification summaries.

00:04:36 ◼   ► - They did, of sort.

00:04:37 ◼   ► - I'm gonna read Apple's response they gave to the BBC

00:04:41 ◼   ► over the ongoing concerns that the BBC have

00:04:43 ◼   ► about the way that Apple Intelligence is summarising

00:04:46 ◼   ► the headlines of articles.

00:04:49 ◼   ► "Apple Intelligence features are in beta

00:04:51 ◼   ► and we are continuously making improvements

00:04:53 ◼   ► with the help of user feedback.

00:04:55 ◼   ► A software update in the coming weeks will further clarify

00:04:58 ◼   ► when the text being displayed is summarisation

00:05:00 ◼   ► provided by Apple Intelligence.

00:05:02 ◼   ► We encourage users to report a concern

00:05:04 ◼   ► if they view an unexpected notification summary."

00:05:07 ◼   ► So, I mean, we'll come back to the actual text of this

00:05:12 ◼   ► and what they're saying in a second,

00:05:13 ◼   ► but I will say hats off to the BBC.

00:05:15 ◼   ► They have really, they've, I think,

00:05:17 ◼   ► taken the charge on this.

00:05:18 ◼   ► I mean, I know there's been lots of reporting

00:05:20 ◼   ► all over the internet about having issues with this,

00:05:23 ◼   ► but the BBC, they gotta be in their bonnet over this

00:05:25 ◼   ► and they have rattled their sabre

00:05:27 ◼   ► until Apple has provided this.

00:05:29 ◼   ► - Right, so they have bonnets off to them, really.

00:05:32 ◼   ► - Yeah, bonnets off, bonnets off.

00:05:33 ◼   ► I don't know how this is gonna do anything more

00:05:36 ◼   ► than what Apple are currently doing.

00:05:38 ◼   ► Like, what is this label?

00:05:39 ◼   ► Where is it gonna be?

00:05:40 ◼   ► What is it actually gonna suggest?

00:05:42 ◼   ► And if you have to show the label,

00:05:44 ◼   ► like a label that's like, "Hey, this might not be right.

00:05:47 ◼   ► "Is it even worth doing it in the first place?"

00:05:49 ◼   ► Is like the bigger, more existential question.

00:05:52 ◼   ► - It's funny 'cause we talked about all this

00:05:53 ◼   ► and then that on upgrade last week,

00:05:55 ◼   ► and then just mere, I think like an hour

00:05:57 ◼   ► after we posted the episode,

00:05:59 ◼   ► there was this response from Apple.

00:06:01 ◼   ► And I thought, "Oh no, this whole story."

00:06:03 ◼   ► And then I read the response and I thought, "Oh, okay."

00:06:05 ◼   ► Because this is the biggest non-answer answer,

00:06:09 ◼   ► non-response response that you could give.

00:06:11 ◼   ► It reminded me a little bit of Steve Jobs saying,

00:06:14 ◼   ► if you want a bumper case, you can have one.

00:06:16 ◼   ► It's a just sort of begrudging comment

00:06:19 ◼   ► that somebody felt they were forced to make.

00:06:21 ◼   ► 'Cause here's what they said.

00:06:22 ◼   ► First off, emphasizing beta at the beginning and the end.

00:06:27 ◼   ► I read that as them kind of saying,

00:06:31 ◼   ► "What do you expect?

00:06:32 ◼   ► "This is a beta.

00:06:33 ◼   ► "You should know that this is a beta.

00:06:35 ◼   ► "If you have a problem with it in a beta,

00:06:37 ◼   ► "file a feedback essentially, right?

00:06:39 ◼   ► "File a radar.

00:06:41 ◼   ► "We encourage users to report a concern 'cause it's a beta."

00:06:44 ◼   ► Which I don't love because it's a beta,

00:06:49 ◼   ► final version of software that's shipped out to customers,

00:06:52 ◼   ► that's advertised and that they send out notifications,

00:06:57 ◼   ► to offer, "Turn on this feature,

00:07:01 ◼   ► "turn on Apple intelligence."

00:07:02 ◼   ► So it's a beta.

00:07:04 ◼   ► It's a beta as a shield to allow them

00:07:06 ◼   ► to make statements like this saying,

00:07:07 ◼   ► "Oh, don't blame us, it's just a beta.

00:07:09 ◼   ► "And we're not gonna apologize for anything

00:07:10 ◼   ► "that happens in a beta."

00:07:12 ◼   ► Which shows a lack of basically taking ownership

00:07:17 ◼   ► of your own features that I find kind of breathtaking.

00:07:21 ◼   ► So don't love that.

00:07:22 ◼   ► And then the other thing I don't love in this statement

00:07:24 ◼   ► is what you mentioned,

00:07:25 ◼   ► which is the software update in the coming weeks,

00:07:27 ◼   ► which will put a warning label on it saying,

00:07:29 ◼   ► "This might be wrong."

00:07:31 ◼   ► Or saying, Guy English suggested that perhaps

00:07:33 ◼   ► they should just put an Apple logo next to all of them

00:07:35 ◼   ► and put their own brand on the line

00:07:37 ◼   ► and see how they feel about that.

00:07:38 ◼   ► That would be really powered by Apple intelligence.

00:07:42 ◼   ► Yeah, you can trust us, but don't trust us.

00:07:46 ◼   ► I don't know, 'cause the solution needs to be,

00:07:49 ◼   ► we mentioned some of this last week,

00:07:50 ◼   ► but there are ways Apple could work

00:07:52 ◼   ► to make this more reliable or to de-emphasize it.

00:07:56 ◼   ► And the number one thing that I take away

00:07:59 ◼   ► from this whole thing is not that LLMs are unreliable

00:08:03 ◼   ► because they can be unreliable in specific circumstances

00:08:06 ◼   ► like trying to summarize a summary, a headline,

00:08:10 ◼   ► but it points out to me that the rush

00:08:12 ◼   ► to integrate these features led to them putting something in

00:08:16 ◼   ► without maybe considering the best way

00:08:21 ◼   ► to get the best output to users for news summaries.

00:08:25 ◼   ► And that's because they rushed it.

00:08:26 ◼   ► So it's the, they rushed to integrate Apple intelligence

00:08:30 ◼   ► everywhere they could in the OS.

00:08:32 ◼   ► And this came up as like, yeah, yeah, yeah, summaries,

00:08:34 ◼   ► let's do it.

00:08:35 ◼   ► I'm really good at summarizing notifications.

00:08:36 ◼   ► Let's make it happen.

00:08:38 ◼   ► And I don't think anybody was saying

00:08:40 ◼   ► I would really like my news summaries to be,

00:08:42 ◼   ► or news notifications to be summarized.

00:08:44 ◼   ► I'm not sure anybody was actually saying that,

00:08:46 ◼   ► but it was an opportunity to put in Apple intelligence,

00:08:49 ◼   ► but then they just kinda slammed it in there

00:08:51 ◼   ► and they probably could do a more careful job of doing it.

00:08:54 ◼   ► And they didn't, and this is the result.

00:08:56 ◼   ► So the question is, what now, right?

00:08:59 ◼   ► Like is the warning label the extent

00:09:02 ◼   ► of what Apple's going to do here?

00:09:04 ◼   ► They're not saying anything more than that.

00:09:06 ◼   ► They probably aren't happy with it internally,

00:09:08 ◼   ► I would imagine.

00:09:09 ◼   ► - They can't be. - But I find it funny.

00:09:11 ◼   ► But I find it funny that they resort to lashing out

00:09:14 ◼   ► about the fact that it's, come on, it's just in beta.

00:09:16 ◼   ► It's like how many Apple intelligence ads are on the TV?

00:09:19 ◼   ► How many ways are they trying to push this feature to users

00:09:21 ◼   ► and use it to sell iPhones and then to hide behind,

00:09:24 ◼   ► oh, well, that is just a beta, come on.

00:09:26 ◼   ► - I mean, I can tell you what's gonna happen here.

00:09:29 ◼   ► They're gonna ship this and within a week,

00:09:32 ◼   ► the BBC is gonna write another story.

00:09:34 ◼   ► 'Cause this is not going to solve the problem

00:09:38 ◼   ► that they have with this.

00:09:41 ◼   ► The problem that the BBC and other people,

00:09:43 ◼   ► like users and other outlets have with this,

00:09:47 ◼   ► is it often enough gives wrong or misleading information.

00:09:52 ◼   ► - I think the way I put it in my piece last week was,

00:09:57 ◼   ► for a certain percentage of the time,

00:10:00 ◼   ► it turns information into misinformation.

00:10:02 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:10:03 ◼   ► - And I think this is the story of the AI era,

00:10:06 ◼   ► which is for the BBC,

00:10:08 ◼   ► the threshold of turning information

00:10:10 ◼   ► to misinformation is zero.

00:10:13 ◼   ► What is it for Apple?

00:10:15 ◼   ► And it seems to be maybe none, right?

00:10:18 ◼   ► Maybe they just don't care, but that's a problem, right?

00:10:21 ◼   ► That's a problem that the summaries

00:10:22 ◼   ► are turning information into misinformation.

00:10:24 ◼   ► And again, there are ways around it.

00:10:27 ◼   ► I wrote a whole piece follow-up on Tuesday

00:10:30 ◼   ► about just the issue of summarizing headlines.

00:10:34 ◼   ► Because what I don't want this to turn into,

00:10:36 ◼   ► people will do it anyway, right?

00:10:38 ◼   ► Is just have it be about LLMs being bad.

00:10:41 ◼   ► 'Cause it's not about LLMs being as bad as this anyway.

00:10:45 ◼   ► Maybe they, look, they make mistakes, they do.

00:10:48 ◼   ► But it's a summary of a summary.

00:10:51 ◼   ► That's the biggest problem here,

00:10:52 ◼   ► is the way it's implemented is poor.

00:10:54 ◼   ► Because you're taking six or seven words

00:10:57 ◼   ► written by somebody summarizing an article,

00:10:59 ◼   ► and then your LLM is turning it into five words,

00:11:02 ◼   ► or four words.

00:11:03 ◼   ► And if you, so there's this app Artifact

00:11:06 ◼   ► that went out of business,

00:11:07 ◼   ► and you could mark any headline as clickbait,

00:11:09 ◼   ► and have it rewrite the headline.

00:11:11 ◼   ► What it did was it read the story,

00:11:13 ◼   ► and then wrote a headline.

00:11:14 ◼   ► And I spent half an hour on Tuesday

00:11:18 ◼   ► pasting the text of news articles into ChatGPT,

00:11:22 ◼   ► and saying, "Write me a headline with these specs,

00:11:25 ◼   ► "based on this story."

00:11:27 ◼   ► And you know what?

00:11:28 ◼   ► None of them were wrong.

00:11:31 ◼   ► All of them, I would say, were okay as headlines.

00:11:34 ◼   ► I'd say that a couple of them got the emphasis

00:11:38 ◼   ► of the story wrong.

00:11:39 ◼   ► And as a headline snob, as a newspaper and magazine editor

00:11:43 ◼   ► for many years, as a headline snob,

00:11:45 ◼   ► I always rewrote the headlines.

00:11:46 ◼   ► I was like, "No, no, no, no, these headlines."

00:11:48 ◼   ► I have very particular ideas about headlines.

00:11:51 ◼   ► And so a couple of those ChatGPT headlines,

00:11:53 ◼   ► I looked at and go, "No, that's not what the story is about.

00:11:55 ◼   ► "You missed it."

00:11:56 ◼   ► But the fact is, none of the ones I tried

00:11:59 ◼   ► got it factually wrong.

00:12:01 ◼   ► And that's because they had the whole story to consume.

00:12:05 ◼   ► And that's part of the problem with what Apple built here,

00:12:08 ◼   ► is that there's not enough data to summarize headlines.

00:12:11 ◼   ► 'Cause headlines have no context,

00:12:13 ◼   ► because they're headlines.

00:12:14 ◼   ► The context is the story you're supposed to read

00:12:16 ◼   ► based on the headline, and they just messed it up.

00:12:19 ◼   ► - Yes, because as you said in your article

00:12:21 ◼   ► that I really liked,

00:12:22 ◼   ► humans aren't good at headlines either,

00:12:24 ◼   ► because there are external forces now

00:12:26 ◼   ► that push people to write bad headlines,

00:12:28 ◼   ► where the headlines are just to make you click.

00:12:31 ◼   ► And so if you're starting with clickbait,

00:12:34 ◼   ► you're not starting with a good spot anyway.

00:12:37 ◼   ► - Right, well, that's the worst scenario, right,

00:12:38 ◼   ► is that the headline is also bad.

00:12:40 ◼   ► And different organizations have different,

00:12:43 ◼   ► some news organizations are good at writing good headlines,

00:12:45 ◼   ► and some are very bad at it.

00:12:46 ◼   ► The thing that I find distressing,

00:12:48 ◼   ► and again, I come across, I'm like an old man,

00:12:50 ◼   ► but the fact is, I was rewriting people's headlines

00:12:52 ◼   ► in the early '90s, right?

00:12:53 ◼   ► So okay, yes.

00:12:54 ◼   ► I think there's a whole generation of people,

00:12:58 ◼   ► these kids today, no, a whole generation of people

00:13:00 ◼   ► who were brought up, basically,

00:13:02 ◼   ► they were forced to write clickbait headlines,

00:13:04 ◼   ► because that was, the journalism in that era,

00:13:07 ◼   ► in the web, the 2000s, 2010s era, so much of it,

00:13:11 ◼   ► especially in the period where everybody's

00:13:12 ◼   ► just trying to drive traffic,

00:13:13 ◼   ► and now we've got more paywalls and things like that.

00:13:16 ◼   ► But in that era, you had to write clickbait headlines.

00:13:20 ◼   ► And so people were trying to write them.

00:13:21 ◼   ► And so I see, even today, on sites

00:13:23 ◼   ► that are subscription-driven with paywalls,

00:13:27 ◼   ► that they write clickbait headlines.

00:13:29 ◼   ► And it drives me crazy, 'cause it's like, I'm paying you,

00:13:33 ◼   ► your headline should tell me whether the story

00:13:35 ◼   ► is of interest to me or not,

00:13:38 ◼   ► not to bait me into tapping,

00:13:40 ◼   ► realizing it's not relevant to my life at all,

00:13:42 ◼   ► and then tapping back.

00:13:43 ◼   ► You don't actually get more out of that.

00:13:45 ◼   ► I mean, I guess they have some ads on their pages too,

00:13:47 ◼   ► most of the time, but it's like,

00:13:48 ◼   ► really, if I'm a paying customer,

00:13:51 ◼   ► you gotta give me more.

00:13:51 ◼   ► You gotta actually tell me what's going on in the story,

00:13:54 ◼   ► and then that should intrigue me and make me wanna read more.

00:13:56 ◼   ► But you shouldn't be trying to deceive me,

00:13:58 ◼   ► but leaving out all that information.

00:14:00 ◼   ► So it's the classic example of like,

00:14:02 ◼   ► this place is going to kill you if you go there.

00:14:07 ◼   ► And you're like, uh-oh, I better click.

00:14:09 ◼   ► And then you click, and it's like,

00:14:10 ◼   ► this place is in New Zealand.

00:14:12 ◼   ► Inside of a volcano.

00:14:13 ◼   ► All right, yeah, it's in space.

00:14:15 ◼   ► It's space, it's Jupiter.

00:14:18 ◼   ► And you're like, wait a second, I'm not going to Jupiter.

00:14:20 ◼   ► Why did I click it there?

00:14:22 ◼   ► And that's the problem with it.

00:14:24 ◼   ► So yes, that magnifies this whole situation.

00:14:27 ◼   ► Sometimes the headlines are really bad.

00:14:30 ◼   ► But if you read the article,

00:14:31 ◼   ► and that's what I keep thinking,

00:14:32 ◼   ► is there is a way forward here,

00:14:34 ◼   ► which is providing Apple's summarization system

00:14:38 ◼   ► with more content.

00:14:39 ◼   ► But if you're going to summarize a short headline.

00:14:44 ◼   ► So here's one example.

00:14:46 ◼   ► The San Francisco Chronicle,

00:14:47 ◼   ► a paper, newspaper and website devoted to Northern California

00:14:51 ◼   ► wrote a headline last week.

00:14:54 ◼   ► And everybody knows about this news story now,

00:14:56 ◼   ► which is "Destructive California Windstorm.

00:15:00 ◼   ► Here's Where the Risk is Highest."

00:15:03 ◼   ► This is to Northern California readers.

00:15:06 ◼   ► Well, of course, when you tap on it,

00:15:07 ◼   ► you find that these are the Santa Ana winds

00:15:09 ◼   ► in Southern California, in Los Angeles,

00:15:11 ◼   ► hundreds of miles away.

00:15:12 ◼   ► And they were destructive.

00:15:14 ◼   ► As we know, it's a terrible situation

00:15:16 ◼   ► in Los Angeles right now.

00:15:18 ◼   ► The ChatGBT rewrite of that headline, by the way,

00:15:20 ◼   ► is Southern California braces for extreme Santa Ana winds,

00:15:23 ◼   ► which is what the story is about.

00:15:26 ◼   ► But the San Francisco Chronicle is like,

00:15:28 ◼   ► "What if we make all the Northern Californians afraid

00:15:31 ◼   ► that they're going to get a windstorm

00:15:32 ◼   ► so that they tap on our headline,

00:15:34 ◼   ► even though it's a paywall,

00:15:35 ◼   ► so they have to already be giving us money

00:15:37 ◼   ► so that we can deceive them into loading a few crappy ads?"

00:15:40 ◼   ► Again, it's bad.

00:15:42 ◼   ► But ChatGBT did a fine job with rewriting that headline.

00:15:45 ◼   ► So I think the issue here is not just the pure badness

00:15:50 ◼   ► of LLMs, which some people want to talk about.

00:15:52 ◼   ► The issue is, this is a bad feature,

00:15:54 ◼   ► implemented badly by Apple.

00:15:56 ◼   ► That's what it is.

00:15:57 ◼   ► Apple has a tool, which is an LLM,

00:15:59 ◼   ► and they applied it to a place where it doesn't belong.

00:16:02 ◼   ► That's the problem.

00:16:03 ◼   ► - Because you've mentioned it, I will say.

00:16:06 ◼   ► I don't know how helpful it is that your favorite tech

00:16:10 ◼   ► podcast talks about things that are happening--

00:16:11 ◼   ► - Expresses concern.

00:16:13 ◼   ► - In the wild.

00:16:13 ◼   ► - For me, obviously, I think anyone that pays any attention

00:16:17 ◼   ► to me and my life obviously knows how much I love LA County

00:16:22 ◼   ► and how much time I've spent there in the last five years.

00:16:26 ◼   ► And I am just, I'm devastated by the fires.

00:16:30 ◼   ► It's so horrific and so upsetting.

00:16:33 ◼   ► And I know people who have been moved from their homes

00:16:37 ◼   ► or have lost homes, just people I'm friendly with.

00:16:42 ◼   ► Everyone that is in our--

00:16:43 ◼   ► - Circle is fine, that I'm aware of at least.

00:16:46 ◼   ► And yeah, it's just, oh my God, it kills me.

00:16:50 ◼   ► And I feel so bad. - No, it's terrible.

00:16:52 ◼   ► - And that it's not even done.

00:16:54 ◼   ► - No, no, the pattern continues.

00:16:58 ◼   ► It's absolutely terrible.

00:17:00 ◼   ► Lauren's from Southern California.

00:17:02 ◼   ► And in fact, when she was in elementary school,

00:17:07 ◼   ► she lived in that area.

00:17:10 ◼   ► She actually lived just north of Sunset Boulevard

00:17:14 ◼   ► on Curson, so in the evacuation warning area, I guess.

00:17:19 ◼   ► And you could literally walk up into those hills right there

00:17:21 ◼   ► where there was fire.

00:17:24 ◼   ► So it's definitely affected.

00:17:26 ◼   ► Obviously, so many people as a Californian,

00:17:30 ◼   ► these things happen and it's terrible.

00:17:34 ◼   ► And it has to do with all the things that make us

00:17:36 ◼   ► love California and want to live here

00:17:38 ◼   ► are also things that can do terrible things.

00:17:42 ◼   ► We had a fire like this, we had a few fires like this,

00:17:46 ◼   ► one very close to us up in Santa Rosa in Sonoma County.

00:17:51 ◼   ► And yeah, suffice it to say that in our house,

00:17:55 ◼   ► there's been a lot of, we already have a go bag.

00:17:59 ◼   ► And we tested it out because we got that tsunami warning

00:18:02 ◼   ► a few weeks ago.

00:18:03 ◼   ► We were like, all right, well, let's use this as practice

00:18:05 ◼   ► 'cause it looked like the tsunami was not gonna happen.

00:18:07 ◼   ► We're like, well, where are the cat carriers

00:18:09 ◼   ► and where's the go bag and what's all that?

00:18:12 ◼   ► And this is another reminder of how tenuous life

00:18:17 ◼   ► in California can be because we are at the whim

00:18:20 ◼   ► of our wonderful climate.

00:18:21 ◼   ► It is also our terrible climate.

00:18:23 ◼   ► Both of those things go together.

00:18:24 ◼   ► So nobody's talking about, I mean, this is the truth

00:18:27 ◼   ► that it's January and it's sunny and pleasantly warm

00:18:31 ◼   ► in LA this week.

00:18:32 ◼   ► That's why the fires are happening.

00:18:33 ◼   ► And they haven't had any rain this winter,

00:18:36 ◼   ► which we've had a lot of.

00:18:38 ◼   ► So a lot of terrible things, but it's like, yeah.

00:18:40 ◼   ► So, and I mean, what do you do?

00:18:42 ◼   ► It's also, it's nature, but obviously all of us

00:18:45 ◼   ► feel terrible for all of our friends

00:18:47 ◼   ► and really everybody else in LA who's affected by this.

00:18:50 ◼   ► It's awful.

00:18:51 ◼   ► - Yeah, like just on that, like I saw Lucas Short Bloomberg

00:18:53 ◼   ► in his newsletter wrote something.

00:18:55 ◼   ► I just felt so perfectly encapsulated.

00:18:57 ◼   ► I wanna read it.

00:18:58 ◼   ► It says, "What makes LA so magical also makes it vulnerable.

00:19:02 ◼   ► The dry desert climate exposes fast areas

00:19:04 ◼   ► to the risk of fire.

00:19:05 ◼   ► The tectonic plates underneath our feet

00:19:07 ◼   ► mean semi-frequent earthquakes.

00:19:09 ◼   ► Living in Los Angeles has always meant compromise.

00:19:11 ◼   ► You accept the heightened risk of natural disaster

00:19:14 ◼   ► to reside in paradise."

00:19:15 ◼   ► I was just like, oh my God, how beautiful.

00:19:17 ◼   ► Like how beautifully written in it encapsulates it so much.

00:19:20 ◼   ► So I just wanted to mention it because it came up

00:19:22 ◼   ► and just, you know, obviously we both have a connection

00:19:26 ◼   ► to that area.

00:19:27 ◼   ► And so it felt like I wanted to say something.

00:19:31 ◼   ► - For sure.

00:19:32 ◼   ► - This episode is brought to you by Ecamm.

00:19:35 ◼   ► Ecamm is the leading live video production

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00:19:43 ◼   ► Someone builds these tools for the Mac?

00:19:44 ◼   ► Yes, they do.

00:19:46 ◼   ► Ecamm does.

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00:19:59 ◼   ► just about anything you want with video.

00:20:01 ◼   ► The Ecamm app lets you do it all,

00:20:03 ◼   ► whether you're streaming, recording, podcasting, presenting,

00:20:07 ◼   ► you know, maybe you're presenting something over zoom

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00:20:12 ◼   ► everything is there in Ecamm.

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00:21:07 ◼   ► Before I found Ecamm Live,

00:21:11 ◼   ► I may have used Ecamm products for years,

00:21:13 ◼   ► but before I found Ecamm Live,

00:21:15 ◼   ► it just wasn't possible for me to stream from my Mac.

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00:21:20 ◼   ► Macs just couldn't do it.

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00:22:42 ◼   ► of this show and Relay.

00:22:43 ◼   ► Let's get back into some follow-up.

00:22:47 ◼   ► - Ah, yes.

00:22:48 ◼   ► - I saw this going around.

00:22:49 ◼   ► I saw some 9to5Mac.

00:22:50 ◼   ► - Semiconductor analyst, analysisist, Tim Colpen

00:22:55 ◼   ► is reporting that TSMC in Arizona

00:22:59 ◼   ► is now producing the S9 chip for the Apple Watch

00:23:02 ◼   ► or they're just about to.

00:23:04 ◼   ► This Arizona plant is currently making the A16 processor

00:23:08 ◼   ► which is going into the older phones that Apple is selling.

00:23:10 ◼   ► But this is a, you know, for right now,

00:23:13 ◼   ► a chip that they need and maybe will continue to need

00:23:16 ◼   ► in new products and they're looking to make it in America.

00:23:20 ◼   ► So there are less sophisticated production lines

00:23:23 ◼   ► than the cutting-edge three nanometer stuff

00:23:25 ◼   ► that's in Taiwan, right?

00:23:27 ◼   ► In fact, Mike, you might call these legacy nodes.

00:23:31 ◼   ► - Oh, you know what, Jason?

00:23:33 ◼   ► I would, I would call them that.

00:23:35 ◼   ► - You should call them legacy nodes.

00:23:36 ◼   ► But the fact is that this is part of a much larger story

00:23:38 ◼   ► about TSMC being given money, encouraged strongly by the US

00:23:43 ◼   ► to build up some chip supply chain in the United States

00:23:49 ◼   ► because there's a great fear

00:23:51 ◼   ► that if all of the chip supply chain is in Taiwan

00:23:54 ◼   ► and China attacks Taiwan, that that would be extremely bad

00:23:59 ◼   ► for, I mean, and the only reason I would disagree with that

00:24:03 ◼   ► is that I think it might be extremely bad in so many ways

00:24:05 ◼   ► beyond can computers be purchased?

00:24:08 ◼   ► - Yes.

00:24:09 ◼   ► - I think it may not matter, right?

00:24:11 ◼   ► Like, but anyway, and so what would they make

00:24:16 ◼   ► at the Arizona plant?

00:24:17 ◼   ► And here is a great report about that,

00:24:19 ◼   ► that they're making Apple Watch chips,

00:24:21 ◼   ► they're making A16s, and I'm sure, you know,

00:24:25 ◼   ► it may be the case that it's always the more

00:24:28 ◼   ► of the legacy nodes that get built,

00:24:30 ◼   ► obviously the cutting-edge stuff gets built in Taiwan

00:24:32 ◼   ► and then they kind of roll it down to the stuff in the US.

00:24:35 ◼   ► But still, I also wanted to mention actually,

00:24:38 ◼   ► since you brought this up,

00:24:39 ◼   ► there's a great New York Times story,

00:24:42 ◼   ► we'll put it in the show notes,

00:24:43 ◼   ► about the people who've come from Taiwan

00:24:47 ◼   ► to help set up the factories in Phoenix,

00:24:50 ◼   ► and how that has transformed the area around the plant,

00:24:53 ◼   ► and there are people who are like from Taiwan

00:24:56 ◼   ► who lived in other parts,

00:24:57 ◼   ► where there was like a Taiwanese community

00:24:59 ◼   ► in a far off part of Phoenix, 'cause Phoenix is enormous,

00:25:02 ◼   ► who have come to this area to set up businesses

00:25:06 ◼   ► and to help make those people feel more at home and adapt.

00:25:10 ◼   ► - Tiny Taipei in the desert, they call it,

00:25:12 ◼   ► which is a beautiful phrase, I like that.

00:25:15 ◼   ► - Yeah, right, and the goal is,

00:25:17 ◼   ► I mean, obviously the goal is not to have

00:25:19 ◼   ► just a bunch of people from Taiwan come to Phoenix

00:25:21 ◼   ► and make chips, 'cause the goal is to have

00:25:23 ◼   ► American workers working on it too,

00:25:25 ◼   ► but the challenge is that the TSMC people

00:25:27 ◼   ► are the people who know how to do this,

00:25:29 ◼   ► and so there's this, the mixture of the people from Taiwan

00:25:33 ◼   ► who are working for TSMC and then the people from America,

00:25:35 ◼   ► it's just a great little story,

00:25:37 ◼   ► I thought it was really well reported

00:25:39 ◼   ► about all the cultural issues that go involved,

00:25:42 ◼   ► that are involved with moving from somewhere very far away

00:25:44 ◼   ► with a very different culture,

00:25:46 ◼   ► and plopping down in the desert,

00:25:47 ◼   ► and what does that mean, and how do you live your life,

00:25:50 ◼   ► and it's just, it's a really interesting story,

00:25:52 ◼   ► so we'll link to it in the show.

00:25:53 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, and this is, you're saying,

00:25:55 ◼   ► like, you know, TSMC, they get a lot of benefits

00:25:58 ◼   ► to doing this, and then companies like Apple

00:26:00 ◼   ► can ride that benefit, like, this benefits Apple,

00:26:03 ◼   ► because they can say, look what we're doing in America,

00:26:05 ◼   ► we're back into that again.

00:26:07 ◼   ► But I don't disagree with the premise anyway,

00:26:10 ◼   ► like, even if you take out the we're worried

00:26:13 ◼   ► about Taiwan part, I do think that there is a benefit

00:26:17 ◼   ► to if you can do it, having these things around the world

00:26:20 ◼   ► in different places, creating jobs for different people

00:26:23 ◼   ► who might not be otherwise working these kinds of fields,

00:26:25 ◼   ► like, I have no problem with that, I think it's a good idea.

00:26:28 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:26:30 ◼   ► - This morning, you sent me a YouTube video

00:26:33 ◼   ► for the Gemmoji ad.

00:26:35 ◼   ► - Yes, 'cause you said you hadn't seen it.

00:26:37 ◼   ► - Yeah, I had not seen it, so I saw it

00:26:39 ◼   ► for the first time this morning.

00:26:41 ◼   ► It's a good ad.

00:26:42 ◼   ► - It's a good ad, very catchy, catchy.

00:26:44 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's a good ad, it's a catchy ad.

00:26:46 ◼   ► I would love to know, and I don't know if anybody out there

00:26:52 ◼   ► can tell me the answer to this.

00:26:55 ◼   ► I'm not convinced that these are all actually Gemmoji.

00:26:59 ◼   ► - So there is a disclaimer on the ad.

00:27:03 ◼   ► - Okay.

00:27:04 ◼   ► - And I think it says, "Gemmoji animated by human animators,"

00:27:09 ◼   ► or something like that.

00:27:11 ◼   ► - Okay.

00:27:12 ◼   ► - But that is a question, right,

00:27:14 ◼   ► is are those really Gemmoji at all?

00:27:17 ◼   ► Did they start as Gemmoji,

00:27:19 ◼   ► or did they kind of get there later?

00:27:24 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:27:25 ◼   ► - It doesn't matter to me.

00:27:26 ◼   ► I'm not like, "Oh, this is like a scandal,"

00:27:29 ◼   ► but like, 'cause some of them do genuinely look like

00:27:31 ◼   ► what stuff that I have made from Gemmoji.

00:27:34 ◼   ► - Yeah, so it's a static Gemmoji's,

00:27:37 ◼   ► comma, professionally animated.

00:27:39 ◼   ► - Cool, I'll buy that then.

00:27:40 ◼   ► - I don't know if they used a higher resolution

00:27:44 ◼   ► Gemmoji pipeline in order to get them to look better for TV,

00:27:48 ◼   ► but I think the implication is that they are Gemmoji.

00:27:51 ◼   ► Now, how many thousands of them they had to generate

00:27:53 ◼   ► before they got the ones that were good enough

00:27:55 ◼   ► to then have them professionally animated.

00:27:58 ◼   ► But I think it's a really effective ad.

00:28:00 ◼   ► We've been talking a lot about Apple Intelligence

00:28:03 ◼   ► and the ads and that it's a beta and all those things.

00:28:05 ◼   ► I think this ad is the best endorsement

00:28:08 ◼   ► of Apple Intelligence that I've seen.

00:28:11 ◼   ► - Yeah, well, 'cause Gemmoji is the best feature.

00:28:13 ◼   ► (laughs)

00:28:14 ◼   ► That's why.

00:28:15 ◼   ► - Yeah, fun.

00:28:16 ◼   ► (laughs)

00:28:17 ◼   ► And the song is an earworm, gets stuck in your head

00:28:20 ◼   ► and it's all just, you're gonna be thinking about

00:28:21 ◼   ► Bukatini with some peas, Socrates on mountain skis

00:28:24 ◼   ► for a long time after you watch that ad.

00:28:27 ◼   ► And I watch football, so I see it every commercial break.

00:28:30 ◼   ► - This song, I can only imagine there was two briefings,

00:28:35 ◼   ► which was, can you make a song which is kind of part,

00:28:40 ◼   ► we didn't start the fire, if that's the name of the song.

00:28:43 ◼   ► Right, is that the name of the song?

00:28:45 ◼   ► We didn't? - Yep, yep.

00:28:46 ◼   ► - And part Technologic by Daft Punk.

00:28:48 ◼   ► And then just smushed them together

00:28:51 ◼   ► and you came out with this song.

00:28:52 ◼   ► Like that's what this song is.

00:28:53 ◼   ► I think it's a bit more Daft Punk than anything else.

00:28:57 ◼   ► But yeah, this is like, oh, what if we made

00:29:00 ◼   ► our own version of Technologic

00:29:03 ◼   ► and then just made Gemmoji for that?

00:29:05 ◼   ► I think that's what they're doing there.

00:29:06 ◼   ► And I like it, it's fun.

00:29:07 ◼   ► It's a good song.

00:29:08 ◼   ► And I'm actually happy that they made an original song

00:29:11 ◼   ► to do this.

00:29:12 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's a band called The Dare,

00:29:14 ◼   ► which is actually a guy.

00:29:16 ◼   ► It's a guy whose band name is The Dare.

00:29:19 ◼   ► - That's fun.

00:29:20 ◼   ► - But he has actually, he is like from New York

00:29:23 ◼   ► club musician and DJ, I think.

00:29:27 ◼   ► And that's cool, right?

00:29:28 ◼   ► Like I think they did, what it doesn't feel like

00:29:30 ◼   ► is a kind of like silly commercial jingle.

00:29:33 ◼   ► It has the vibe of all of those cutting edge songs

00:29:36 ◼   ► that Apple does.

00:29:38 ◼   ► - They make a Gemmoji that looks like this guy at the end.

00:29:42 ◼   ► - Oh yeah, see, there you go.

00:29:43 ◼   ► - That's fun, that's fun.

00:29:45 ◼   ► But yeah, he obviously wrote this song

00:29:47 ◼   ► for Apple for Gemmoji, right?

00:29:49 ◼   ► Like there's no way that he made this before.

00:29:53 ◼   ► - Actually, I was thinking if you did make this song

00:29:56 ◼   ► and then somebody at Apple heard it,

00:29:57 ◼   ► they'd be like, oh my God, that's perfect for Gemmoji.

00:29:59 ◼   ► But I was like, probably not, probably not, right?

00:30:01 ◼   ► It's still an earworm and the ad is fun.

00:30:05 ◼   ► And it's like, oh yeah, you can make like ridiculous things.

00:30:09 ◼   ► A horse wearing a tie, sure, you can do that.

00:30:12 ◼   ► - Okay, this is pretty great, Jason.

00:30:14 ◼   ► In the description for the YouTube video,

00:30:18 ◼   ► they have the prompts.

00:30:20 ◼   ► - Oh, look at that.

00:30:22 ◼   ► - You know what, Apple, whoever made this video,

00:30:27 ◼   ► whoever made this, bravo, you thought of everything.

00:30:31 ◼   ► I'm like, oh, did this work?

00:30:32 ◼   ► It's like, no, they have got,

00:30:33 ◼   ► all you have to do is find the pieces.

00:30:35 ◼   ► They put it all out there for us, right?

00:30:37 ◼   ► Like, oh, I'm like, oh no, no way.

00:30:38 ◼   ► But Eggman was fried egg with arms and legs,

00:30:41 ◼   ► poodle shopper, pink poodle holding multicolored

00:30:43 ◼   ► shopping bags, sunglasses, walking.

00:30:45 ◼   ► Like it's the actual prompts,

00:30:47 ◼   ► 'cause like they don't make any sense in English,

00:30:49 ◼   ► some of them, right?

00:30:50 ◼   ► Tomato face emoji wearing long body trench coat,

00:30:52 ◼   ► hat, glasses, legs, red hands.

00:30:54 ◼   ► Bravo, gotta say, bravo.

00:30:58 ◼   ► Handsome horse in black suit and tie with flowing mane.

00:31:01 ◼   ► - So I guess you could try and make them yourself, right?

00:31:05 ◼   ► Based on these prompts and just to see how it comes out.

00:31:08 ◼   ► I really like this ad, I think it's a good ad.

00:31:10 ◼   ► And it really is, in my opinion, the only ad they should,

00:31:15 ◼   ► about Apple intelligence, 'cause the rest of them,

00:31:17 ◼   ► they've not engendered kind thoughts, I think,

00:31:21 ◼   ► from people in general on the internet.

00:31:23 ◼   ► But I think, but look, this is like gemmoji,

00:31:26 ◼   ► 'cause gemmoji is basically fun and harmless.

00:31:31 ◼   ► - Yes.

00:31:32 ◼   ► - Where a lot of the other stuff,

00:31:33 ◼   ► there's a lot more quibbles to be had by it.

00:31:36 ◼   ► And this is a good ad to show off what it can do.

00:31:39 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:31:40 ◼   ► - You wanted to talk about script debugger.

00:31:43 ◼   ► - Yeah, just really quickly, I wrote about this last week.

00:31:46 ◼   ► This is long-term follow-up for upgrade, like really long,

00:31:51 ◼   ► like episode 338 of upgrade,

00:31:54 ◼   ► which for those who do not remember that far back,

00:31:58 ◼   ► I can tell you that is the episode

00:32:00 ◼   ► where we stopped using call recorder.

00:32:02 ◼   ► By sponsor Ecamm, they moved on to better things

00:32:05 ◼   ► with Ecamm Live.

00:32:06 ◼   ► - Well, they didn't have a choice.

00:32:07 ◼   ► - Well, they were getting pinched by Skype on one side

00:32:11 ◼   ► and by the operating system on the other side.

00:32:14 ◼   ► And they decided that it was over and they shut it down.

00:32:18 ◼   ► And that prompted me to write an article as well,

00:32:21 ◼   ► which was called "The Mortality of Software,"

00:32:23 ◼   ► which contained a meme that I had forgotten existed,

00:32:26 ◼   ► which is Simone Durochevar, who used to be a relay host.

00:32:31 ◼   ► It's a Thanos and child Nebula meme

00:32:36 ◼   ► where it's, "Did you drastically reduce export times

00:32:39 ◼   ► with Apple Silicon?"

00:32:40 ◼   ► "Yes."

00:32:41 ◼   ► "What did it cost?"

00:32:42 ◼   ► "Everything."

00:32:44 ◼   ► And it's a picture of call recorder.

00:32:46 ◼   ► This call recorder couldn't make it.

00:32:48 ◼   ► Couldn't make it to Apple Silicon,

00:32:49 ◼   ► was getting squeezed by Skype.

00:32:51 ◼   ► So we gave it up.

00:32:52 ◼   ► And my piece was basically like, okay,

00:32:55 ◼   ► apps come and go, and it really sucks

00:32:59 ◼   ► when an app you rely on gets discontinued.

00:33:02 ◼   ► It happens, but it stinks.

00:33:04 ◼   ► It's a lousy thing to have happen.

00:33:06 ◼   ► But I thought at the time,

00:33:07 ◼   ► and this came up again this week,

00:33:08 ◼   ► and what prompted me to write that article,

00:33:10 ◼   ► is there are also a lot of apps I rely on and love,

00:33:14 ◼   ► and that a lot of Mac users rely on and love,

00:33:15 ◼   ► that are indie apps.

00:33:16 ◼   ► And they are the product of one or two or three people,

00:33:19 ◼   ► a single person or a small team.

00:33:22 ◼   ► And those people are human beings.

00:33:25 ◼   ► Not only are there all the risks,

00:33:27 ◼   ► I mean, very sadly,

00:33:28 ◼   ► remember there were those great shortcuts utilities

00:33:32 ◼   ► that were written by Alex Hay,

00:33:34 ◼   ► and he passed away.

00:33:36 ◼   ► And in that case, they actually,

00:33:39 ◼   ► the group that picked them up,

00:33:41 ◼   ► including our friend Rosemary,

00:33:43 ◼   ► worked with his family.

00:33:46 ◼   ► But a very difficult situation to even do that.

00:33:49 ◼   ► A lot of times I think that in situations like that,

00:33:51 ◼   ► it's just over, right?

00:33:52 ◼   ► The code just disappears and is gone.

00:33:55 ◼   ► That's a rare kind of success story

00:33:57 ◼   ► of being able to pick up Alex's legacy.

00:33:59 ◼   ► I mentioned all this because script debugger

00:34:02 ◼   ► from late night software has been around for 30 years.

00:34:05 ◼   ► It is what it sounds like,

00:34:06 ◼   ► which is if you were somebody who wrote AppleScript scripts,

00:34:09 ◼   ► like I did, it gave you a debugging platform

00:34:11 ◼   ► that was incredibly useful.

00:34:12 ◼   ► You could put, you could stop, you know,

00:34:14 ◼   ► and check the variables at any point.

00:34:16 ◼   ► It gave you output of where all the variables were

00:34:20 ◼   ► and what they were so you could figure out

00:34:22 ◼   ► why AppleScript wasn't working right,

00:34:24 ◼   ► which boy, that is required

00:34:25 ◼   ► 'cause it's often so impenetrable.

00:34:28 ◼   ► Just an incredibly useful utility.

00:34:31 ◼   ► And the fact is that its authors are retiring,

00:34:35 ◼   ► which they should.

00:34:37 ◼   ► Like if they can retire, they should retire.

00:34:40 ◼   ► But it means the app is gonna not be updated anymore.

00:34:42 ◼   ► And they're doing a very nice thing

00:34:44 ◼   ► where they're gonna, they promise updates

00:34:45 ◼   ► for any issues in the next six months.

00:34:47 ◼   ► And then at that point they will,

00:34:49 ◼   ► and they've announced that they're gonna stop selling it.

00:34:51 ◼   ► They'll stop selling it in six months.

00:34:53 ◼   ► And then they will actually post like all the versions

00:34:56 ◼   ► back to version five or something

00:34:58 ◼   ► with serial numbers on their website.

00:35:00 ◼   ► And basically say, if you've got a compatibility issue

00:35:03 ◼   ► for a past, you know, you really need a version

00:35:06 ◼   ► that runs on this version of Mac OS or whatever,

00:35:08 ◼   ► you can have it, which is great.

00:35:10 ◼   ► Like this, so the right way to do it.

00:35:11 ◼   ► But the bottom line is that the next time

00:35:14 ◼   ► there's an OS update that breaks Scriptabugger,

00:35:17 ◼   ► you can't use it beyond that point.

00:35:19 ◼   ► That's just the truth of it.

00:35:20 ◼   ► And look, if AppleScript was a thriving world

00:35:25 ◼   ► that Apple was putting lots of like time and money into,

00:35:28 ◼   ► and it was a major part of Apple's strategy going forward,

00:35:31 ◼   ► it would probably be a viable reason

00:35:33 ◼   ► for somebody to buy this business and move it forward.

00:35:35 ◼   ► But it's not, it is also kind of fading away.

00:35:40 ◼   ► I haven't even used Scriptabugger

00:35:41 ◼   ► like a fraction of how much I used to

00:35:43 ◼   ► because I've moved so much of what I do

00:35:45 ◼   ► to shortcuts and to Python.

00:35:47 ◼   ► But I still, ironically, I used Scriptabugger

00:35:51 ◼   ► the very day before this announcement came across my timeline

00:35:56 ◼   ► because I was being frustrated by something in AppleScript.

00:36:00 ◼   ► I was like, what is happening here?

00:36:01 ◼   ► Let's go into Scriptabugger

00:36:02 ◼   ► and figure out what I need to do.

00:36:04 ◼   ► So it's a bummer, but again, it just reminds me

00:36:08 ◼   ► of that whole mortality of software thing,

00:36:10 ◼   ► which is I worry that the Mac as a platform

00:36:13 ◼   ► has a lot of go-to apps that were built

00:36:15 ◼   ► in the early days of Mac OS X,

00:36:18 ◼   ► or maybe even the later days of classic Mac OS.

00:36:20 ◼   ► And they're indie apps, and they've been put together

00:36:23 ◼   ► by small teams or individuals.

00:36:25 ◼   ► And the danger is that all of those apps

00:36:27 ◼   ► are of a certain age,

00:36:29 ◼   ► and their developers are of a certain age.

00:36:32 ◼   ► And if something happens to them,

00:36:36 ◼   ► or they just say, I'm going to retire now,

00:36:38 ◼   ► which they have every right to do,

00:36:40 ◼   ► the fear is that that's the end of those apps.

00:36:43 ◼   ► And my larger fear is that so many apps on the Mac

00:36:46 ◼   ► date from that period,

00:36:48 ◼   ► that the Mac has kind of gotten along

00:36:51 ◼   ► with a lot of developer support

00:36:54 ◼   ► from kind of the gray hairs of development.

00:36:59 ◼   ► And they have provided a continuity.

00:37:02 ◼   ► My counter-argument would be the only people

00:37:03 ◼   ► who care about those old apps are old people,

00:37:05 ◼   ► and they'll all fade away together.

00:37:07 ◼   ► We'll all retire together, and none of us

00:37:09 ◼   ► will need BBEdit anymore or whatever.

00:37:10 ◼   ► But I would say that's not necessarily true.

00:37:12 ◼   ► James Thompson is a year younger than me,

00:37:17 ◼   ► and lots of people use PCALC of various ages.

00:37:20 ◼   ► It appeals to all sorts of ages,

00:37:21 ◼   ► but he's just one person writing that code.

00:37:25 ◼   ► So I think when you have a platform as old as the Mac,

00:37:30 ◼   ► 41 years old and 25 years, as we said last week,

00:37:33 ◼   ► for Mac OS X, this becomes a risk.

00:37:36 ◼   ► And also I worry about just the sort of like,

00:37:38 ◼   ► it's like an old car or something like that,

00:37:39 ◼   ► where the miles add up.

00:37:43 ◼   ► And I don't think Apple, right?

00:37:46 ◼   ► Apple is not even that focused on it, the truth, right?

00:37:50 ◼   ► 'Cause Apple has been focused for the last decade plus

00:37:54 ◼   ► on, you know, gosh, 15, 18 years on iOS platform software,

00:37:59 ◼   ► more than Mac software, for good reasons.

00:38:01 ◼   ► But the Mac has been able to kind of get by.

00:38:03 ◼   ► So anyway, it's just another one of those signs out there

00:38:07 ◼   ► that I was struck by that it wasn't,

00:38:09 ◼   ► we're shutting this down

00:38:10 ◼   ► 'cause we can't make any money at it.

00:38:12 ◼   ► It was not, we're shutting this down because we, whatever,

00:38:15 ◼   ► because Apple's made it untenable.

00:38:16 ◼   ► It was, we're shutting this down 'cause we're retiring

00:38:19 ◼   ► and we can't open source it

00:38:20 ◼   ► 'cause it's got a lot of stuff in it

00:38:22 ◼   ► that can't be open sourced.

00:38:23 ◼   ► So it just has to go.

00:38:24 ◼   ► A little like how in a different context,

00:38:26 ◼   ► James Thompson made dragfang go away.

00:38:32 ◼   ► That was because of a technical issue,

00:38:33 ◼   ► but this is not really a technical issue.

00:38:36 ◼   ► It's just, we can't do it.

00:38:39 ◼   ► We're retiring, we're over.

00:38:40 ◼   ► So something to keep an eye on,

00:38:42 ◼   ► and it's just something that fills me

00:38:44 ◼   ► with slight existential dread for being a Mac user

00:38:47 ◼   ► is other software that I rely on that has a developer.

00:38:51 ◼   ► Again, they don't need to work until the day they die

00:38:54 ◼   ► in their 90s in order to please me, right?

00:38:57 ◼   ► They don't need to do that.

00:38:58 ◼   ► They need to do what's right for them.

00:38:59 ◼   ► And if they can retire, they should retire.

00:39:01 ◼   ► But still, what does that mean for everybody else?

00:39:05 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:39:06 ◼   ► - Big feelings for a follow-up item, you know?

00:39:10 ◼   ► - You know, that's what happens.

00:39:12 ◼   ► You go deep, you go back to 3.38 of upgrade that far back.

00:39:16 ◼   ► - Big emotions. - Feelings deepen.

00:39:17 ◼   ► Big, big feelings.

00:39:19 ◼   ► You go deep, you get the big feels.

00:39:21 ◼   ► That's just how it is, Mike.

00:39:22 ◼   ► - I understand.

00:39:23 ◼   ► This episode is brought to you by Oracle.

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00:40:35 ◼   ► of this show and all of Relay.

00:40:38 ◼   ► So last week on the show, we gave our feelings

00:40:44 ◼   ► about what Apple should and could do in 2025.

00:40:48 ◼   ► Well, now it's Mark Gurman's turn to do the same.

00:40:52 ◼   ► So Mark published his first kind of newsletter for the year

00:40:57 ◼   ► in which he broke down what he is expecting

00:41:00 ◼   ► to be the entire year's worth of stuff.

00:41:04 ◼   ► And I want to go through the big highlights here

00:41:07 ◼   ► 'cause there's some reporting we've heard before,

00:41:09 ◼   ► some stuff, little tidbits that are new,

00:41:11 ◼   ► but it's always interesting to kind of look at

00:41:14 ◼   ► what is your feeling on this

00:41:16 ◼   ► if you know a bunch of stuff, right?

00:41:18 ◼   ► Well, we're giving our vibes, right?

00:41:21 ◼   ► Like this is what we think,

00:41:23 ◼   ► but what happens if you actually know?

00:41:25 ◼   ► So we're going to do this kind of chronologically.

00:41:29 ◼   ► The first updates that we're expected to see this year

00:41:31 ◼   ► would be new versions of the MacBook Air

00:41:33 ◼   ► featuring M4 chips.

00:41:34 ◼   ► Mark spoke about this and actually made me think about,

00:41:38 ◼   ► me and Steven were talking, I think over the weekend

00:41:40 ◼   ► about like the M2 MacBook Air.

00:41:43 ◼   ► Does that replace the M1 MacBook Air,

00:41:45 ◼   ► like in Walmart and stuff?

00:41:47 ◼   ► Like is the M1 going to go away?

00:41:48 ◼   ► 'Cause Mark talks about like the M4

00:41:52 ◼   ► probably will replace the M3

00:41:54 ◼   ► and the M2 he thinks will remain,

00:41:57 ◼   ► not that the M3 will shuffle down.

00:41:59 ◼   ► And I think that makes sense.

00:42:00 ◼   ► - Yeah, I sent you and Steven a link

00:42:03 ◼   ► because you guys were having that conversation

00:42:05 ◼   ► about how the M3 MacBook Air was $899 at Amazon.

00:42:10 ◼   ► Like what?

00:42:13 ◼   ► So I feel like the question of what happens

00:42:17 ◼   ► with a MacBook Air line is really interesting

00:42:18 ◼   ► but I think their margins have gotten to the point

00:42:20 ◼   ► where yeah, they could kick the M1 and M3

00:42:24 ◼   ► out of the product line if they wanted to,

00:42:26 ◼   ► make the M2 cheap and then introduce an M4 and be fine.

00:42:31 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:42:32 ◼   ► Some new products are likely to come in the spring.

00:42:36 ◼   ► The iPhone SE is expected to be the highlight of that

00:42:40 ◼   ► with the modern design, with Face ID

00:42:41 ◼   ► and Apple Intelligence support.

00:42:43 ◼   ► Mark mentions that he thinks that the new design

00:42:46 ◼   ► and some of the new features could push the price up

00:42:49 ◼   ► and says that they could maybe keep the old device around.

00:42:52 ◼   ► And I just think this is a terrible idea.

00:42:54 ◼   ► - So if you look at the way he worded that,

00:42:57 ◼   ► I think he shifts from knowledge to punditry

00:43:00 ◼   ► in the middle there. - Yes, he does.

00:43:02 ◼   ► - Where he's like, "I think they should keep

00:43:03 ◼   ► the old device around and push it down to $200

00:43:05 ◼   ► for some markets."

00:43:06 ◼   ► And it's like, okay, well, you can think that

00:43:07 ◼   ► but are they gonna do that or not?

00:43:09 ◼   ► - Yeah, I don't think so.

00:43:11 ◼   ► - Well, I mean, a device that doesn't run

00:43:13 ◼   ► Apple Intelligence that's got a lightning port on it,

00:43:15 ◼   ► I mean, I don't know.

00:43:18 ◼   ► - Here's the thing, here's what I'll say.

00:43:20 ◼   ► I could imagine a scenario where like,

00:43:22 ◼   ► what we were just talking about with the Walmart MacBook Air

00:43:25 ◼   ► that there are some parts of the world

00:43:27 ◼   ► where they keep the old iPhone SE around

00:43:30 ◼   ► and it's sold through certain partners

00:43:32 ◼   ► at a really cheap price.

00:43:34 ◼   ► - Yeah, you definitely don't see it on Apple's website

00:43:37 ◼   ► and it's not part of their marketing,

00:43:38 ◼   ► but you can still get it in certain markets at a low price

00:43:42 ◼   ► because that market needs to have an entry iPhone

00:43:45 ◼   ► at that price.

00:43:46 ◼   ► Yes, I agree, that could happen.

00:43:48 ◼   ► - And also, at this point, if they have not found a way

00:43:52 ◼   ► to make like a Face ID design phone for this price,

00:43:55 ◼   ► I don't know what's going on, right?

00:43:57 ◼   ► Because there was a time where a Touch ID based phone

00:44:01 ◼   ► cost a lot of money and they did it for a long enough time

00:44:03 ◼   ► that they got the price down.

00:44:04 ◼   ► - Face ID started in 2017, okay, right?

00:44:09 ◼   ► So that's seven years ago, well, six plus years ago

00:44:14 ◼   ► 'cause it was in the fall with the iPhone X.

00:44:17 ◼   ► Okay, you should be able to get that

00:44:19 ◼   ► in your base model phone now, right?

00:44:21 ◼   ► You should be able to do that.

00:44:23 ◼   ► There's gotta be a way.

00:44:24 ◼   ► The first, I mean, have they upgraded all the specs

00:44:27 ◼   ► in the latest Face IDs?

00:44:28 ◼   ► Well, maybe they go back to the cheaper,

00:44:30 ◼   ► more readily available, not quite as great version

00:44:33 ◼   ► that they can put in this version.

00:44:35 ◼   ► But yeah, that seems to make a lot of sense to me.

00:44:38 ◼   ► Just, they could do it, they could do it.

00:44:40 ◼   ► They may have to forego, as with any hardware redesign,

00:44:43 ◼   ► you have to forego some of your really sweet margins

00:44:45 ◼   ► on the product that's been in the line forever.

00:44:48 ◼   ► I get it, but that's why you waited seven years.

00:44:52 ◼   ► - And also, this is a product that you know

00:44:55 ◼   ► is gonna be around for a super long time.

00:44:57 ◼   ► So could you not, is it not possible to think about

00:45:01 ◼   ► the profit margin in the long term

00:45:03 ◼   ► rather than just in the short term?

00:45:05 ◼   ► - And it's an important product for them.

00:45:07 ◼   ► It really is important for them.

00:45:08 ◼   ► And keep in mind too that they can't sell,

00:45:11 ◼   ► the current model's not on sale in the EU, for example.

00:45:15 ◼   ► It can't be, because it has lightning on it.

00:45:17 ◼   ► So they need to get it out there,

00:45:18 ◼   ► having a base model iPhone to get people in the store,

00:45:21 ◼   ► to get people to become iPhone customers

00:45:24 ◼   ► who might otherwise not be in the ecosystem.

00:45:26 ◼   ► There's so many reasons to do it.

00:45:27 ◼   ► And so yeah, it's time.

00:45:29 ◼   ► - I really look forward to only partly

00:45:34 ◼   ► all of the moratoriums for the home button

00:45:36 ◼   ► that will be written on that day.

00:45:38 ◼   ► - Oh, the memorials of like, RIP home button.

00:45:42 ◼   ► It's like, somebody will work up an AI-generated image

00:45:47 ◼   ► of a tombstone where the home button has been laid to rest

00:45:51 ◼   ► in the family plot next to the headphone jack.

00:45:53 ◼   ► - Well, I always think about the Verge article

00:45:56 ◼   ► about the MacBook Air design

00:45:58 ◼   ► and how they were sad that it was gone.

00:46:03 ◼   ► In a way that I just don't understand.

00:46:06 ◼   ► The MacBook Air's wedge is truly gone and I miss it already.

00:46:10 ◼   ► That article didn't make any sense to me.

00:46:11 ◼   ► I know it's all about opinion.

00:46:12 ◼   ► - Nope.

00:46:14 ◼   ► - It's written by Victoria Song,

00:46:15 ◼   ► who is one of my favorite reporters at the Verge,

00:46:17 ◼   ► but you can't agree on everything.

00:46:19 ◼   ► And I don't agree on this one.

00:46:20 ◼   ► (laughs)

00:46:21 ◼   ► - Also, let's be clear.

00:46:23 ◼   ► A Verge piece has a weight,

00:46:26 ◼   ► and a piece by Victoria Song has an extra weight to it.

00:46:28 ◼   ► And that is, that post, that story was a classic blog post,

00:46:32 ◼   ► which is, look, I know that it doesn't make sense,

00:46:35 ◼   ► but I'm just sharing some vibes here,

00:46:38 ◼   ► which is, boy, I loved that wedge-shaped MacBook Air

00:46:40 ◼   ► and this is the end.

00:46:42 ◼   ► And to frame it as the Verge decries

00:46:44 ◼   ► the elimination of the wedge.

00:46:46 ◼   ► - Sure, sure.

00:46:47 ◼   ► - I'm sure they didn't mean it,

00:46:48 ◼   ► but I rolled my eyes at it too.

00:46:50 ◼   ► I'm like, come on, that's just progress.

00:46:52 ◼   ► That's just the world moving.

00:46:54 ◼   ► But again, I think the point was just,

00:46:56 ◼   ► hey, things move on.

00:46:57 ◼   ► Scriptabugger gets discontinued.

00:47:00 ◼   ► It happens.

00:47:01 ◼   ► - I will say though, there is somebody in my house

00:47:03 ◼   ► who I know feels this way.

00:47:05 ◼   ► So I guess I can't say too much.

00:47:08 ◼   ► And it is a point of contention in my home

00:47:11 ◼   ► that Adina really does not want to update her

00:47:13 ◼   ► M1 MacBook Air 'cause she much prefers that design

00:47:17 ◼   ► to mine in a way that I just,

00:47:19 ◼   ► I cannot get my head around it,

00:47:21 ◼   ► but she prefers it. - I completely disagree.

00:47:23 ◼   ► - And I don't understand it.

00:47:25 ◼   ► - I was the world's biggest MacBook Air fan,

00:47:27 ◼   ► but I love the new design so much.

00:47:29 ◼   ► - It's the best.

00:47:30 ◼   ► - I rolled it down.

00:47:31 ◼   ► So this is part of the story,

00:47:32 ◼   ► that just a little sidebar here.

00:47:35 ◼   ► Now that I've got my MacBook Pro,

00:47:36 ◼   ► Lauren's got my M2 Air and Jamie's got the M1 Air

00:47:40 ◼   ► that Lauren had that I had previously.

00:47:41 ◼   ► So that's gone down to another one.

00:47:43 ◼   ► She was on an Intel MacBook Air so bad, so bad.

00:47:46 ◼   ► Oh my God, it was the computer we got

00:47:47 ◼   ► when she went to college.

00:47:48 ◼   ► And oh, if you can just imagine a MacBook Air

00:47:51 ◼   ► of that vintage, a six-year-old, seven-year-old MacBook Air,

00:47:54 ◼   ► Intel, going to an M1, huge, huge jump for her.

00:47:58 ◼   ► It's great.

00:47:59 ◼   ► But I was struck by the sentimentalism, I guess,

00:48:04 ◼   ► that came out in this moment when I was migrating computers,

00:48:08 ◼   ► because first, Lauren says to Jamie,

00:48:12 ◼   ► you take good care of that thing.

00:48:14 ◼   ► That was my computer.

00:48:15 ◼   ► I really loved it.

00:48:17 ◼   ► And I thought, well, that's, I mean, come on, that's silly.

00:48:19 ◼   ► And then Lauren sat down on the couch

00:48:21 ◼   ► like a couple of days ago with my old M2 MacBook Air,

00:48:24 ◼   ► midnight MacBook Air, and was doing something.

00:48:26 ◼   ► And I was like, oh, I have those feelings too.

00:48:28 ◼   ► You better take care of that thing.

00:48:31 ◼   ► I love that thing so much.

00:48:32 ◼   ► - I have such a strong attachment

00:48:34 ◼   ► to my M2 MacBook Air.

00:48:35 ◼   ► Like, I love that computer so much.

00:48:37 ◼   ► And then I probably mentioned this in the show,

00:48:39 ◼   ► but like I put stickers on that laptop.

00:48:42 ◼   ► I've not done that in a long time,

00:48:44 ◼   ► but I'm just like, no, I'm good.

00:48:46 ◼   ► Like this computer's moved in with me.

00:48:48 ◼   ► Like we're not going anywhere.

00:48:50 ◼   ► Like I genuinely, like I can imagine,

00:48:53 ◼   ► like I will use this MacBook Air

00:48:56 ◼   ► until Apple takes a big jump with the MacBook Air again.

00:48:59 ◼   ► Like, you know, they have to make a big jump

00:49:02 ◼   ► for me to want to move 'cause I just,

00:49:04 ◼   ► for what I am doing on that computer,

00:49:06 ◼   ► it's like, it's perfect.

00:49:10 ◼   ► - So just also as a little note,

00:49:13 ◼   ► as part of this computer exchange process,

00:49:15 ◼   ► I went to Etsy as I do and bought a rainbow Apple logo

00:49:22 ◼   ► sticker and affixed it to the Apple logo on my MacBook Pro.

00:49:27 ◼   ► And in a quiet ceremony, while the migration was going on,

00:49:31 ◼   ► the Apple rainbow decal was removed from the M2 MacBook Air

00:49:36 ◼   ► because you need to tell those two things apart

00:49:38 ◼   ► and the rainbow one is mine.

00:49:40 ◼   ► So that's how we did it.

00:49:42 ◼   ► - And also you're probably the only person in the house

00:49:44 ◼   ► that has such a strong affinity for the rainbow logo.

00:49:48 ◼   ► - Of course, it's just that, you know,

00:49:49 ◼   ► it's more that that was a midnight

00:49:50 ◼   ► and I've got the space black and they're close enough

00:49:54 ◼   ► in color and shape at this point

00:49:56 ◼   ► that we need to be able to identify who's is who's.

00:49:59 ◼   ► And so I get the rainbow and I de-rainbow the other one

00:50:02 ◼   ► and Lauren can put stickers on it if she wants to.

00:50:05 ◼   ► But I actually was shopping.

00:50:08 ◼   ► There was a surprising lack of Apple,

00:50:11 ◼   ► well, I guess because it's the Apple logo,

00:50:13 ◼   ► but like the people on Etsy who do the rainbow Apple logo,

00:50:16 ◼   ► I'm really surprised that there aren't more

00:50:19 ◼   ► just like colored Apple decals that will go on

00:50:23 ◼   ► the shape of the Apple logo on a Mac laptop

00:50:25 ◼   ► because I'd get Lauren, I found one,

00:50:28 ◼   ► but they didn't have models.

00:50:30 ◼   ► They didn't go to the trouble of,

00:50:32 ◼   ► the good Etsy shops as somebody who's done this

00:50:35 ◼   ► like 10 times now have measured the exact measurements

00:50:38 ◼   ► of every Mac model and the Apple logo on it.

00:50:41 ◼   ► And they just put the model in your picker

00:50:44 ◼   ► when you're ordering your decal.

00:50:46 ◼   ► And the one that I found that had like a purple

00:50:48 ◼   ► or an orange or whatever, they just had dimensions.

00:50:51 ◼   ► And I was like, oh my God, I have to go measure the Apple

00:50:53 ◼   ► and see, I don't wanna do that.

00:50:55 ◼   ► But anyway, that would be cool because that's a fun way

00:50:58 ◼   ► that even if you don't love stickers, you could,

00:51:01 ◼   ► and Apple won't let you buy computers in fun colors,

00:51:03 ◼   ► you could just put a fun color on the Apple logo.

00:51:06 ◼   ► You could do that.

00:51:08 ◼   ► - Going back to Mark's report.

00:51:10 ◼   ► - Yes.

00:51:10 ◼   ► - Kind of also in the spring,

00:51:13 ◼   ► probably along with the iPhone SE,

00:51:15 ◼   ► a new versions of the iPad and the iPad Air,

00:51:19 ◼   ► these will both get faster chips.

00:51:21 ◼   ► So the regular iPad would probably get an A17 Pro

00:51:25 ◼   ► for Apple intelligence.

00:51:26 ◼   ► And Mark believes that the iPad Air could go to an M4,

00:51:30 ◼   ► which I guess makes sense.

00:51:32 ◼   ► I mean, it's powerful,

00:51:33 ◼   ► but it's gonna stick around for a while.

00:51:36 ◼   ► - Yeah, and I know that the thought is always,

00:51:38 ◼   ► well, why would you do that?

00:51:40 ◼   ► 'Cause that makes it less differentiated with the iPad Pro.

00:51:43 ◼   ► I think Apple has shown

00:51:44 ◼   ► that they kind of don't care that much.

00:51:45 ◼   ► And there are so many other things about the Air

00:51:49 ◼   ► in terms of compatibility with Magic Keyboard

00:51:52 ◼   ► and in terms of the OLED screen, right?

00:51:55 ◼   ► Like the Pro has, there's enough there.

00:51:57 ◼   ► If the Air ends up with the M4, it's fine.

00:52:00 ◼   ► - It's vastly differentiated at the moment.

00:52:02 ◼   ► And also as well, don't forget that the M3

00:52:05 ◼   ► was a bit of an ugly duckling kind of chip.

00:52:07 ◼   ► - And Apple's making so many M4s, right?

00:52:12 ◼   ► And they're gonna make even more with the MacBook Air

00:52:14 ◼   ► when it goes to M4.

00:52:15 ◼   ► M4 is the right thing to put in there.

00:52:18 ◼   ► And then at some point, the iPad Pro will get a M5 or M6,

00:52:23 ◼   ► and it'll differentiate again.

00:52:24 ◼   ► But until then, there's plenty to differentiate

00:52:26 ◼   ► those two products other than the processor.

00:52:28 ◼   ► - The thinness is a big one too.

00:52:32 ◼   ► - Thinness, OLED, new keyboard.

00:52:34 ◼   ► Although he says they might update

00:52:37 ◼   ► the 2020 Magic Keyboard, right?

00:52:39 ◼   ► Which is what the Air currently uses.

00:52:41 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:52:42 ◼   ► - That's interesting.

00:52:44 ◼   ► - He just says Magic Keyboard updates.

00:52:46 ◼   ► So what they will be, not entirely sure.

00:52:49 ◼   ► - Yeah, that's weird. - But something.

00:52:53 ◼   ► A home hub device.

00:52:55 ◼   ► So as a refresher of the specs,

00:52:56 ◼   ► seven inch screen can be wall mounted

00:52:58 ◼   ► or placed on the counter.

00:53:00 ◼   ► Mark Gorman was originally expecting a March release,

00:53:02 ◼   ► but this could take a bit more time.

00:53:04 ◼   ► A quote from his article,

00:53:05 ◼   ► the device's operating system, code named Pebble,

00:53:08 ◼   ► is heavily tied to AppIntents,

00:53:11 ◼   ► features coming in iOS 18.4 and iOS 19.

00:53:15 ◼   ► So it's plausible that the hardware itself

00:53:17 ◼   ► will ship a bit later.

00:53:19 ◼   ► So there you go, there's a little detail

00:53:21 ◼   ► of how does this thing work?

00:53:23 ◼   ► It's somehow going to use AppIntents.

00:53:27 ◼   ► - Right, which is a question,

00:53:29 ◼   ► 'cause there's a whole it can't run apps,

00:53:30 ◼   ► but like, does it run AppIntents

00:53:32 ◼   ► and does it run them remotely?

00:53:33 ◼   ► Or what's exactly going on there?

00:53:34 ◼   ► There's a lot of mystery here.

00:53:35 ◼   ► This also is a suggestion that

00:53:37 ◼   ► as the last remaining big WWDC features,

00:53:42 ◼   ► the personal context and the AppIntents

00:53:45 ◼   ► that are still not shipping,

00:53:47 ◼   ► that you build a piece of hardware

00:53:49 ◼   ► that's tied around them and you're like,

00:53:51 ◼   ► okay, can't ship it.

00:53:53 ◼   ► Can't ship it until you've got that stuff shipping

00:53:56 ◼   ► in a product, which is going to be, again, 18.4.

00:53:59 ◼   ► And the way he words this, first off, I think,

00:54:02 ◼   ► well, one of two things is probably true here.

00:54:03 ◼   ► Either AppIntents is coming in 18.4 in a limited fashion,

00:54:08 ◼   ► and then they're going to kick the rest of it into iOS 19.

00:54:11 ◼   ► And I do wonder about that.

00:54:13 ◼   ► The other way to read this is it'll be in 18.4,

00:54:17 ◼   ► unless it slips to 19,

00:54:20 ◼   ► which may be.

00:54:21 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's a little unsight,

00:54:22 ◼   ► 'cause I mean, this is always a thing

00:54:23 ◼   ► that we knew was going to be limited in 18.4,

00:54:26 ◼   ► 'cause I think it's just certain types of apps, right,

00:54:28 ◼   ► and then expected to expand.

00:54:30 ◼   ► But any of the above could be true,

00:54:34 ◼   ► because, I mean, it's January now,

00:54:37 ◼   ► and there is not currently a shipping beta

00:54:41 ◼   ► that includes any of this stuff.

00:54:44 ◼   ► So-- - Nope, nothing.

00:54:45 ◼   ► - How far do we go?

00:54:47 ◼   ► - Yeah, that's a good question.

00:54:50 ◼   ► By the way, I wanna back up for a second.

00:54:52 ◼   ► I do wonder if, when there's a new version

00:54:54 ◼   ► of the low-end iPad and the iPad Air,

00:54:56 ◼   ► I do wonder if they will try something to get the iPad

00:55:00 ◼   ► and the smaller iPad Air to be the same size

00:55:03 ◼   ► so they can have a single keyboard accessory for both.

00:55:07 ◼   ► - Yeah, why not?

00:55:09 ◼   ► - Maybe. - Yeah, why not?

00:55:10 ◼   ► - 'Cause right now they've got that kickstand thing

00:55:13 ◼   ► on the one, and then they've got the old 2020 keyboard

00:55:16 ◼   ► on the other.

00:55:17 ◼   ► I wonder if they might go to a single accessory

00:55:19 ◼   ► that works with both of the small sizes at least,

00:55:22 ◼   ► even if the large size remains using the existing.

00:55:25 ◼   ► They could also change the iPad Airs

00:55:27 ◼   ► to use the new Magic Keyboard instead,

00:55:31 ◼   ► but they would have changed the dimensions

00:55:33 ◼   ► in order to match.

00:55:34 ◼   ► And actually, they're too thick, right?

00:55:35 ◼   ► I think that they actually can't do that, but we'll see.

00:55:38 ◼   ► We'll see, but that's a thought,

00:55:39 ◼   ► is that maybe they're trying to sync up.

00:55:40 ◼   ► The reason there's a Magic Keyboard update

00:55:42 ◼   ► is they're trying to sync up the shape

00:55:43 ◼   ► of their low-end iPads

00:55:45 ◼   ► so that they can use the same accessories.

00:55:47 ◼   ► - Yeah, 'cause we've got a 10.9-inch and an 11-inch.

00:55:50 ◼   ► They're the screen sizes,

00:55:51 ◼   ► and so with that comes slightly different.

00:55:54 ◼   ► I think, yeah, just going to 11-inch on the iPad

00:55:57 ◼   ► would be a good move if they can make it work.

00:56:00 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, even if it's just the shape of the hardware

00:56:02 ◼   ► and not the size of the screen would be a way they could do it.

00:56:05 ◼   ► Well, we'll see, we'll see.

00:56:06 ◼   ► - MacStudio will get an update to the M4 generation

00:56:11 ◼   ► due in the first half of 2025.

00:56:14 ◼   ► The Mac Pro, as well as expected,

00:56:16 ◼   ► but the timing is not clear.

00:56:18 ◼   ► I don't think it's gonna happen.

00:56:20 ◼   ► - He, yeah, he really equivocated about this.

00:56:22 ◼   ► Like, there might be a Mac Pro.

00:56:24 ◼   ► What he's not saying is the Mac Pro

00:56:25 ◼   ► will ship with the MacStudio.

00:56:26 ◼   ► Now he's certain the MacStudio

00:56:28 ◼   ► is going to update in the first half,

00:56:29 ◼   ► but the Mac Pro is just a cloud with a question mark in it.

00:56:34 ◼   ► And when I read that newsletter,

00:56:37 ◼   ► I thought it sounds to me like summer or fall,

00:56:41 ◼   ► and that's interesting.

00:56:44 ◼   ► That's interesting.

00:56:45 ◼   ► But yeah, they might skip it.

00:56:47 ◼   ► I still am not entirely convinced

00:56:50 ◼   ► that there isn't like a Mac Pro strategy

00:56:53 ◼   ► hiding in the background

00:56:54 ◼   ► where they actually do have a plan

00:56:55 ◼   ► to differentiate the Mac Pro.

00:56:57 ◼   ► But to me, it's just as likely that the Mac Pro is a,

00:57:00 ◼   ► you know, we designed this case,

00:57:01 ◼   ► so we might as well update the chips in it,

00:57:03 ◼   ► but no, it doesn't make sense for anybody.

00:57:05 ◼   ► We'll see.

00:57:05 ◼   ► - As much as it hurts people,

00:57:07 ◼   ► I just don't understand the business case

00:57:10 ◼   ► for the amount of development that it would take

00:57:13 ◼   ► to make an effective Mac Pro

00:57:15 ◼   ► and how much it would have to add to macOS

00:57:18 ◼   ► and Apple Silicon to make that work.

00:57:20 ◼   ► And I'm just not sure that I see the business case for it.

00:57:25 ◼   ► - I could see a partner too.

00:57:28 ◼   ► They could do their little partner thing

00:57:29 ◼   ► where they design something

00:57:30 ◼   ► and then have somebody else sell it,

00:57:33 ◼   ► where they say, "You know, it's the MacStudio,

00:57:35 ◼   ► "and if you need those cards,

00:57:36 ◼   ► "here's our mega thunderbolt connection kit thingy

00:57:40 ◼   ► "that is being sold by Belkin or whoever."

00:57:44 ◼   ► (laughs)

00:57:45 ◼   ► And you can put the cards in there, and then they work.

00:57:47 ◼   ► I don't know, I don't know, we'll see, we'll see.

00:57:49 ◼   ► I wonder if they're holding out for a future

00:57:52 ◼   ► where they actually do decouple,

00:57:54 ◼   ► optionally decouple the GPUs

00:57:57 ◼   ► and do something very different in the Mac Pro.

00:57:59 ◼   ► But again, nobody buys the Mac Pro.

00:58:01 ◼   ► Sorry, fans of the Mac Pro.

00:58:03 ◼   ► Essentially, nobody buys the Mac Pro.

00:58:05 ◼   ► So it's a tough one.

00:58:08 ◼   ► - Quite more conversational Siri would be debuting in 2026,

00:58:12 ◼   ► but if we're following this chronologically,

00:58:14 ◼   ► we will see it at WWDC.

00:58:16 ◼   ► So this would be kind of around the middle of the year.

00:58:18 ◼   ► - Right, right.

00:58:19 ◼   ► They'll announce something for next year

00:58:21 ◼   ► about Siri being better.

00:58:22 ◼   ► - Yeah, and this will probably also tie up.

00:58:25 ◼   ► I was thinking when we were talking earlier,

00:58:27 ◼   ► I could imagine genuinely that we might,

00:58:31 ◼   ► I mean, we spoke about this before,

00:58:32 ◼   ► but just thinking about it now,

00:58:33 ◼   ► we will still be getting Apple intelligence features

00:58:36 ◼   ► from iOS 18 post WWDC.

00:58:38 ◼   ► - That could be.

00:58:41 ◼   ► - Right.

00:58:42 ◼   ► - That could be.

00:58:42 ◼   ► - Because there are a few big stuff left

00:58:44 ◼   ► and we may still see that. - I kind of doubt it.

00:58:47 ◼   ► I feel like 18.4 will probably ship in maybe May

00:58:51 ◼   ► and we'll be like at last, the last bill of goods from.

00:58:54 ◼   ► - We'll see.

00:58:55 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:58:56 ◼   ► - And then in June, but you're right.

00:58:57 ◼   ► It could slip.

00:58:58 ◼   ► It could slip.

00:59:00 ◼   ► It's possible.

00:59:01 ◼   ► And the question, I wonder if what they're doing right now

00:59:03 ◼   ► to go back to that app intense statement that he made,

00:59:06 ◼   ► I wonder if the debate right now inside Apple is like,

00:59:09 ◼   ► what can we ship now?

00:59:12 ◼   ► I mean, 18.4 as a way to say, yeah, yeah, yeah,

00:59:15 ◼   ► we shipped this feature we promised.

00:59:17 ◼   ► And what do we boot out of this feature?

00:59:21 ◼   ► Like app intense is an interesting one

00:59:23 ◼   ► where there are whole like classes of app intense

00:59:27 ◼   ► for different kinds of apps.

00:59:29 ◼   ► And I really do wonder if they're like,

00:59:31 ◼   ► if we're gonna ship this, we can only focus on

00:59:33 ◼   ► these limited sets of classes

00:59:35 ◼   ► and potentially some of the ones that they said

00:59:37 ◼   ► they would support in 18, they just kick it to 19

00:59:40 ◼   ► and say, look, we know we need to do more, but we just can't.

00:59:43 ◼   ► And so they focus on the ones

00:59:44 ◼   ► that the hardware requires maybe,

00:59:47 ◼   ► and the rest of them, they just put it in the keynote again

00:59:51 ◼   ► for June and see what happens in the next cycle.

00:59:54 ◼   ► - Mark calls out one of the things for iOS 19

00:59:59 ◼   ► could be an AI powered health coaching service,

01:00:02 ◼   ► which could potentially--

01:00:05 ◼   ► - He's been talking about that a while, yeah.

01:00:06 ◼   ► - That could potentially, depending on what that means,

01:00:09 ◼   ► that could potentially solve an issue

01:00:10 ◼   ► that I have with Apple's overall health strategy,

01:00:13 ◼   ► which is they give you information,

01:00:16 ◼   ► but give you zero context of what any of it means

01:00:19 ◼   ► or how any of it works together.

01:00:22 ◼   ► - It's true, it's true.

01:00:23 ◼   ► - I'm not ready to talk about it yet

01:00:24 ◼   ► 'cause I've not given it enough of a college try,

01:00:26 ◼   ► but in the last few weeks,

01:00:27 ◼   ► I've been trying out a Whoop band,

01:00:29 ◼   ► the familiar with this company, W-H-O-O-P.

01:00:32 ◼   ► They're like a-- - No.

01:00:33 ◼   ► - It's just a strap that you wear.

01:00:35 ◼   ► And it's doing a lot of stuff, it's measuring stuff,

01:00:38 ◼   ► and it's even pulling in data from my Apple Watch.

01:00:40 ◼   ► And they actually take multiple pieces of information

01:00:43 ◼   ► and give me suggestions about my day

01:00:45 ◼   ► and how I might wanna use my energy throughout the day

01:00:50 ◼   ► in a way that I wished that Apple Health would.

01:00:52 ◼   ► And maybe this could be a step to that,

01:00:54 ◼   ► but I also feel like I'm being,

01:00:56 ◼   ► I'm hoping too much from it, but nevertheless.

01:01:01 ◼   ► - There's an ad, another effective, actually,

01:01:04 ◼   ► I would say, Apple ad is this ad called Quit Quitting.

01:01:06 ◼   ► That's about you quit your New Year's resolutions

01:01:09 ◼   ► on the second Friday of January on average.

01:01:12 ◼   ► And it's a what if, but what if you didn't,

01:01:14 ◼   ► what if you had, and it's an Apple Watch ad,

01:01:17 ◼   ► and it's all about fitness.

01:01:19 ◼   ► And it's a good ad.

01:01:21 ◼   ► I mean, it's not bucatini with some peas,

01:01:24 ◼   ► but it's a good ad.

01:01:26 ◼   ► But what strikes me about it is,

01:01:30 ◼   ► I get the aspirational aspect of it,

01:01:32 ◼   ► which is like the Apple Watch will help you

01:01:35 ◼   ► stick with your fitness regimen, it'll measure and all that.

01:01:38 ◼   ► But when you talk about the AI powered health coaching

01:01:41 ◼   ► and all of that, it strikes me that this is an area

01:01:45 ◼   ► where Apple with all of its data

01:01:48 ◼   ► does not really lend you a helping hand to,

01:01:53 ◼   ► I mean, they'll do like,

01:01:54 ◼   ► "Yeah, you closed your rings," and stuff like that.

01:01:56 ◼   ► Or, "Oh, you're a little behind on your rings.

01:01:58 ◼   ► Maybe you should go for a walk," or something like that.

01:02:00 ◼   ► But it's dumb.

01:02:01 ◼   ► And there's something better to be done with this.

01:02:05 ◼   ► And if you look at that ad, you think of Apple's,

01:02:08 ◼   ► what Apple wants the Apple Watch to be,

01:02:10 ◼   ► which is a companion that helps you get over the hump,

01:02:14 ◼   ► not quit your goals, fulfill your goals.

01:02:18 ◼   ► That's a health coach, basically.

01:02:21 ◼   ► So they do need a feature like this, AI powered or not,

01:02:23 ◼   ► they do need a feature like this

01:02:26 ◼   ► to fulfill what their clear aspirations are.

01:02:28 ◼   ► - Talking about the Apple Watch,

01:02:31 ◼   ► the Apple Watch SE will get a redesign.

01:02:34 ◼   ► Interested to see what this is.

01:02:37 ◼   ► I really want them to just make a plastic Apple Watch,

01:02:39 ◼   ► right, but I don't think they're gonna do it,

01:02:42 ◼   ► but I think it would be fun.

01:02:44 ◼   ► And the Ultra, the Series 11 and the Ultra 3,

01:02:47 ◼   ► is it Series 11 or Series 12?

01:02:51 ◼   ► It'd be Series 11?

01:02:53 ◼   ► Yeah, I'm gonna go with that. - Oh, that's this year,

01:02:55 ◼   ► would be a Series 11. - Yeah.

01:02:57 ◼   ► Series 11 and the Ultra 3

01:02:59 ◼   ► will get high blood pressure detection,

01:03:02 ◼   ► and the Ultra 3 will get satellite connectivity.

01:03:05 ◼   ► - So high blood pressure detection is interesting.

01:03:07 ◼   ► So you can have hypertension and get medicated and all that,

01:03:10 ◼   ► but also what will happen is this is gonna be more like,

01:03:13 ◼   ► not we're gonna take your blood pressure

01:03:15 ◼   ► and give you your details and send it to your doctor.

01:03:18 ◼   ► It's more like if it detects

01:03:21 ◼   ► that you've got high blood pressure,

01:03:23 ◼   ► you're having a high blood pressure event,

01:03:24 ◼   ► it's like having an AFib event or something like that,

01:03:27 ◼   ► they will send you an alert

01:03:28 ◼   ► and say you need to talk to your doctor.

01:03:30 ◼   ► And I have a friend that this happened to,

01:03:32 ◼   ► he ended up having a very high blood pressure incident

01:03:37 ◼   ► and went to the hospital

01:03:39 ◼   ► and was in the hospital for a few days.

01:03:41 ◼   ► I'm like, it's a whole thing.

01:03:42 ◼   ► And so the idea that people who are,

01:03:44 ◼   ► again, if you're maintaining,

01:03:47 ◼   ► that's not what this feature is.

01:03:48 ◼   ► This is one of those classic Apple features in a way

01:03:50 ◼   ► where they're turning the weakness of the Apple Watch

01:03:52 ◼   ► into a benefit, which is, okay,

01:03:53 ◼   ► we can't act as your blood pressure cuff,

01:03:57 ◼   ► but we can throw a warning

01:03:59 ◼   ► when your blood pressure seems high.

01:04:01 ◼   ► And for some people, most of us, I think,

01:04:04 ◼   ► are oblivious of lots of aspects of our health

01:04:07 ◼   ► to be told by the Apple Watch, you have a problem,

01:04:10 ◼   ► talk to your doctor now, tell them this.

01:04:12 ◼   ► That's good.

01:04:13 ◼   ► That's great.

01:04:14 ◼   ► Yeah, even if the answer is, yeah, you have hypertension

01:04:17 ◼   ► and you need to go on this medication

01:04:18 ◼   ► and you need to check your blood pressure every day,

01:04:21 ◼   ► your Apple Watch is not necessarily gonna do that part of it

01:04:24 ◼   ► but it could do the warning part,

01:04:26 ◼   ► which is, then there's a montage at WWDC about,

01:04:30 ◼   ► or sorry, at the Apple Watch launch

01:04:31 ◼   ► about how it saved more lives.

01:04:33 ◼   ► And that's the goal.

01:04:35 ◼   ► - Put one of those in every one.

01:04:36 ◼   ► - I know, but that's the goal.

01:04:37 ◼   ► That's what they're trying to do.

01:04:38 ◼   ► Literally, if you ask the Apple Watch people

01:04:40 ◼   ► and the watchOS people what they're trying to do,

01:04:42 ◼   ► they'll say, "Sell products and save lives."

01:04:45 ◼   ► Those are the two things.

01:04:45 ◼   ► - I mean, and that kind of rules.

01:04:47 ◼   ► I mean, I have that thing, it's a very minor thing,

01:04:49 ◼   ► but the vitals widget that's on my home screen,

01:04:53 ◼   ► I mean, I could see that I was sick.

01:04:55 ◼   ► The device knows, it knows,

01:04:59 ◼   ► because like, hey, look, something's wrong here.

01:05:01 ◼   ► And it was right, I was sick last week.

01:05:03 ◼   ► And my Apple Watch knew that

01:05:06 ◼   ► in the level in which it can know that,

01:05:08 ◼   ► which is like, it could see that there were a couple of things

01:05:10 ◼   ► that were out of line.

01:05:12 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:05:14 ◼   ► - The iPhone line, really the only thing of note

01:05:16 ◼   ► is the iPhone 17 Air.

01:05:19 ◼   ► It will be thin, it will feature Apple's own modem,

01:05:23 ◼   ► an A19 chip and a single camera.

01:05:27 ◼   ► This is the thing I've been wondering about.

01:05:30 ◼   ► Like, there's been lots of rumors back and forward,

01:05:33 ◼   ► but Marc's saying this, makes me like,

01:05:34 ◼   ► "Okay, that phone's gonna have one camera."

01:05:36 ◼   ► That is gonna be complicated for people, I think,

01:05:39 ◼   ► especially in our sphere,

01:05:42 ◼   ► who might like the idea of a super thin iPhone,

01:05:45 ◼   ► but with one camera.

01:05:47 ◼   ► And Apple are betting that this will outsell the Plus,

01:05:50 ◼   ► but won't outsell the Pro,

01:05:51 ◼   ► which I think is the right way to think about it.

01:05:53 ◼   ► - I think that this will be a winner

01:05:55 ◼   ► in the way that the Mini and the Plus were not.

01:05:58 ◼   ► I imagine that they will put one of their versions

01:06:01 ◼   ► of a 48 megapixel with the bin pixels

01:06:03 ◼   ► so that they can do a full 48,

01:06:05 ◼   ► or you can do a 24 megapixel with binning,

01:06:08 ◼   ► or you could set it to a 2X zoom, essentially,

01:06:11 ◼   ► which is just using the center portion,

01:06:13 ◼   ► which gives you a zoom,

01:06:14 ◼   ► even though it's not a camera with zoom.

01:06:17 ◼   ► I think that that's all good.

01:06:20 ◼   ► They said, he said that it'll be about as thin

01:06:23 ◼   ► as the iPad Pro, right?

01:06:26 ◼   ► So that's thin, that's really thin.

01:06:28 ◼   ► - There was another rumor, Meng Qiquo rumor,

01:06:32 ◼   ► that at its thinnest part, this will be 5.5 millimeters.

01:06:36 ◼   ► The 11 inch iPad Pro is 5.3.

01:06:39 ◼   ► So yeah, that is genuinely,

01:06:43 ◼   ► that five millimeter range, at the moment,

01:06:47 ◼   ► technology of this ilk cannot be thinner than this.

01:06:51 ◼   ► Like it can't, because there are factors like buttons,

01:06:56 ◼   ► if you're gonna have any buttons,

01:07:01 ◼   ► there is just a thickness level

01:07:03 ◼   ► that they literally have to be at.

01:07:05 ◼   ► So that five millimeter range seems like the absolute,

01:07:10 ◼   ► like thinnest piece of technology can be.

01:07:13 ◼   ► And I will say that that iPad is so thin,

01:07:17 ◼   ► and a phone that thin would be quite special.

01:07:20 ◼   ► - It would be, and that's the thing is,

01:07:22 ◼   ► tech nerds who want all the things will get the Pro.

01:07:28 ◼   ► But a lot of people, regular people,

01:07:31 ◼   ► and also some tech nerds, I would say,

01:07:33 ◼   ► will say that the iPhone is so advanced now,

01:07:36 ◼   ► that giving up some of those features

01:07:40 ◼   ► in order to get this super thin, awesome new thing

01:07:44 ◼   ► is worth it for them.

01:07:45 ◼   ► So I'm looking forward to seeing this product.

01:07:48 ◼   ► I definitely think it will do better

01:07:50 ◼   ► than the Plus and the Mini,

01:07:52 ◼   ► because it's offering something more substantial

01:07:56 ◼   ► than screen size differences.

01:07:59 ◼   ► And I know it's like, well, wait,

01:08:01 ◼   ► it's just a different dimension that's getting thinner.

01:08:02 ◼   ► But like, yeah, I know, but I don't know.

01:08:05 ◼   ► It's gonna feel like no iPhone before it,

01:08:07 ◼   ► and that has some value.

01:08:08 ◼   ► - I'm gonna make a mic prediction here, Jason.

01:08:10 ◼   ► Are you ready?

01:08:11 ◼   ► - Ready.

01:08:13 ◼   ► - Steven Hackett, Federico Vittucci, and Marco Ammann

01:08:16 ◼   ► will all buy this phone.

01:08:17 ◼   ► Not one of them will be using it

01:08:19 ◼   ► before the iPhone 18 comes out.

01:08:20 ◼   ► That is my prediction.

01:08:23 ◼   ► - I love it.

01:08:25 ◼   ► I love the prediction. - Those three guys

01:08:26 ◼   ► are like in this realm, and they will want it,

01:08:30 ◼   ► and I understand it,

01:08:31 ◼   ► but they're all gonna struggle

01:08:34 ◼   ► with the problems that it has over time.

01:08:37 ◼   ► - I agree.

01:08:38 ◼   ► I think, I wanna say that one of them won't,

01:08:41 ◼   ► but I think you're right.

01:08:42 ◼   ► I think that that's exactly what's gonna happen,

01:08:44 ◼   ► is they'll all buy it,

01:08:45 ◼   ► and they'll all get a replacement for it

01:08:46 ◼   ► before the cycle is up.

01:08:49 ◼   ► Yeah. - Yep.

01:08:49 ◼   ► Apple is working on adding heart rate monitoring

01:08:53 ◼   ► to the AirPods Pro 3.

01:08:54 ◼   ► It's something that Marc has reported about previously

01:08:57 ◼   ► that we haven't gotten to yet, and mentions in this again.

01:09:01 ◼   ► They're also working on temperature sensing

01:09:03 ◼   ► and other physiological measurements in general.

01:09:06 ◼   ► I find this to be an interesting one.

01:09:09 ◼   ► Like it would, I guess it would set apart

01:09:11 ◼   ► the Pro models again, right?

01:09:13 ◼   ► Like, so it has an extra feature

01:09:14 ◼   ► that regular AirPods don't,

01:09:16 ◼   ► but I really, for me, I'm not sure

01:09:20 ◼   ► who this customer is.

01:09:23 ◼   ► - I think that the AirPods base is broader

01:09:27 ◼   ► than the Apple Watch base.

01:09:29 ◼   ► - And that there is also a certain percentage of them

01:09:31 ◼   ► who do not overlap.

01:09:33 ◼   ► And I think this is a way for Apple

01:09:35 ◼   ► to basically start getting health data

01:09:37 ◼   ► from people who are not using Apple Watch.

01:09:42 ◼   ► So it's not a huge selling point, I would say.

01:09:45 ◼   ► I feel like it's more that Apple,

01:09:50 ◼   ► as you buy these because you want a new pair of AirPods,

01:09:52 ◼   ► one of the things that it's gonna get you

01:09:54 ◼   ► is more data in the health app,

01:09:56 ◼   ► and that they want that to happen.

01:09:57 ◼   ► But I don't think a lot of people are like,

01:09:59 ◼   ► "Oh man, take my temperature in my ear, let's do it."

01:10:02 ◼   ► - It's a nice to have, right?

01:10:04 ◼   ► The heart rate monitoring in AirPods Pro,

01:10:05 ◼   ► it's a nice to have.

01:10:06 ◼   ► I just, I don't see it as like a potential,

01:10:09 ◼   ► like a real selling point.

01:10:10 ◼   ► 'Cause for me, the person that I'm thinking of, right?

01:10:13 ◼   ► Because the difference here is this is only really useful

01:10:16 ◼   ► for when you're working out,

01:10:17 ◼   ► like that's gonna be the pitch for it.

01:10:18 ◼   ► And it's just like, if you really care

01:10:19 ◼   ► about your heart rate monitoring when you're working out,

01:10:21 ◼   ► you probably have an Apple Watch.

01:10:23 ◼   ► - Yeah, but some people might not.

01:10:25 ◼   ► And I think it gives value there.

01:10:27 ◼   ► There's also heart rate monitoring for people

01:10:29 ◼   ► who do not work out, who are like,

01:10:31 ◼   ► where you're walking and your phone

01:10:33 ◼   ► and your AirPods are measuring your exertion,

01:10:34 ◼   ► and they can tell you things about

01:10:36 ◼   ► whether you're getting in better shape or worse shape.

01:10:38 ◼   ► I think there's also some warning stuff.

01:10:40 ◼   ► Like if they can do AFib detection or something like that,

01:10:42 ◼   ► then they're gonna throw an alert.

01:10:44 ◼   ► But it is different in the sense

01:10:45 ◼   ► that it's only when you've got the AirPods in, right?

01:10:47 ◼   ► It's not all the time with your Apple Watch.

01:10:49 ◼   ► So it's less, look, I like this.

01:10:52 ◼   ► I don't think this is a game changer.

01:10:54 ◼   ► I think this is more showing that Apple has realized

01:10:59 ◼   ► that all of its products should have health sensors in them

01:11:01 ◼   ► and contribute to the whole.

01:11:03 ◼   ► I'll also say it's possible that if you've got

01:11:06 ◼   ► an Apple Watch and you've got AirPods Pro 3

01:11:08 ◼   ► with these new sensors, that they are gonna be able

01:11:11 ◼   ► to coordinate because I suspect some of the monitoring

01:11:15 ◼   ► will be more accurate in the AirPods than in the Apple Watch,

01:11:20 ◼   ► believe it or not.

01:11:20 ◼   ► That there might be things that you could measure better

01:11:23 ◼   ► in the ear, like temperature, than you can on the wrist.

01:11:28 ◼   ► But certainly to make it more accurate

01:11:29 ◼   ► by having two different data points.

01:11:30 ◼   ► And I think Apple's goal is ultimately

01:11:32 ◼   ► this constellation of devices thing

01:11:34 ◼   ► where they've got data everywhere.

01:11:36 ◼   ► - I mean, maybe eventually.

01:11:37 ◼   ► I believe Mark Gorman's report is that it wouldn't be

01:11:40 ◼   ► as accurate, at least to begin with.

01:11:42 ◼   ► But that's to begin with, right?

01:11:42 ◼   ► - Okay, and we'll see.

01:11:43 ◼   ► - Maybe it works in the--

01:11:45 ◼   ► - We'll see.

01:11:46 ◼   ► They take temperature in people's ears, so I wonder if--

01:11:48 ◼   ► - He said not far off, though.

01:11:52 ◼   ► So again, it might get better over time.

01:11:54 ◼   ► And look, Upgradients, if you have opened a thing

01:11:57 ◼   ► to write to me to tell me you don't wear an Apple Watch

01:11:59 ◼   ► but you'd love this, great.

01:12:00 ◼   ► I'm not saying nobody wants this.

01:12:02 ◼   ► My point is that it is a, the Venn diagram of like,

01:12:07 ◼   ► would like heart rate monitoring, and does,

01:12:11 ◼   ► like an Apple Watch--

01:12:12 ◼   ► - And doesn't have a tracker of some sort.

01:12:14 ◼   ► - Like that is like a very small market for me.

01:12:19 ◼   ► For features in one of Apple's most popular products.

01:12:24 ◼   ► Like that's kind of what I'm getting at.

01:12:25 ◼   ► - I think Apple has to go into this thinking

01:12:28 ◼   ► it's either additive or they're gonna be able

01:12:30 ◼   ► to reach people who are never gonna,

01:12:32 ◼   ► who aren't tracking, aren't fitness tracking

01:12:35 ◼   ► and aren't doing any of that.

01:12:36 ◼   ► And they can still get some vitals from them

01:12:38 ◼   ► and use it as part of the health app.

01:12:40 ◼   ► I think that's gotta be what their goal is.

01:12:41 ◼   ► But I know, I don't think it's gonna be a selling point.

01:12:43 ◼   ► Like, I don't think that's part of it.

01:12:45 ◼   ► The hearing aid part is a selling point.

01:12:47 ◼   ► This other health stuff is more just like,

01:12:49 ◼   ► comes along for the ride, which is fine.

01:12:52 ◼   ► - And then kind of the last timed thing in the year

01:12:54 ◼   ► is that the MacBook Pro will get an M5 update,

01:12:57 ◼   ► but not expecting much more.

01:12:59 ◼   ► Mark notes that Apple is planning a bigger update

01:13:01 ◼   ► for the MacBook Pro in 2026,

01:13:03 ◼   ► as it marks the 20 year anniversary.

01:13:05 ◼   ► Do you think, would you expect them to make

01:13:10 ◼   ► a big deal product wise at the 20th anniversary

01:13:14 ◼   ► of the MacBook Pro?

01:13:15 ◼   ► - No.

01:13:17 ◼   ► I don't either.

01:13:18 ◼   ► - I don't think anybody cares.

01:13:20 ◼   ► - No, I mean, this is one of these things

01:13:22 ◼   ► which reminds me of like,

01:13:23 ◼   ► remember that rumor of like the Steve Jobs edition

01:13:25 ◼   ► of the Vision Pro?

01:13:27 ◼   ► Like it feels like that kind of thing.

01:13:28 ◼   ► Like, I don't think Apple's making a big deal

01:13:30 ◼   ► of the 20th anniversary of the MacBook Pro.

01:13:33 ◼   ► Like that doesn't, and like making a big change

01:13:35 ◼   ► to the MacBook Pro because of it.

01:13:37 ◼   ► - It's literally just the anniversary

01:13:39 ◼   ► of the Intel transition.

01:13:41 ◼   ► Because it was the PowerBook before that.

01:13:44 ◼   ► That's it, it was the PowerBook.

01:13:45 ◼   ► - So I don't, I'm not sure that I see it.

01:13:46 ◼   ► - PowerBooks existed since the 80s.

01:13:49 ◼   ► So MacBook Pro, it's literally the name.

01:13:52 ◼   ► - Maybe they have some new features next year

01:13:56 ◼   ► for the MacBook Pro, right?

01:13:57 ◼   ► But that doesn't, it's not like,

01:13:59 ◼   ► oh, we're gonna hold them for the 20th anniversary.

01:14:02 ◼   ► Like, I don't know if I,

01:14:05 ◼   ► I don't think those two things match up for me.

01:14:07 ◼   ► - I don't believe it.

01:14:08 ◼   ► But he's talked about this in the past.

01:14:09 ◼   ► Yeah, it's, they will eventually do a MacBook Pro

01:14:11 ◼   ► that's got, you know, super.

01:14:14 ◼   ► - A lidscreen?

01:14:15 ◼   ► - Dual tandem OLED screens and stuff like that.

01:14:18 ◼   ► Sure, I mean, there's room for there.

01:14:20 ◼   ► And cellular would be great, sure.

01:14:22 ◼   ► - 'Cause they got their own modems

01:14:23 ◼   ► chasing any day now, you know, any day now.

01:14:25 ◼   ► - Any day now.

01:14:27 ◼   ► Well, maybe that new iPhone SE or whatever.

01:14:29 ◼   ► So we didn't even mention the fact

01:14:30 ◼   ► that there's some speculation

01:14:31 ◼   ► that they're not gonna call it the iPhone SE.

01:14:32 ◼   ► That they might call it something like the iPhone 16s,

01:14:35 ◼   ► which I think is fine because it says what,

01:14:39 ◼   ► it says what features are in it, right?

01:14:40 ◼   ► It says it's from the 16 line and it's from that era

01:14:42 ◼   ► and it's got that chip and you kinda know what it is.

01:14:47 ◼   ► And it allows it not to be quite as much of an outlier.

01:14:50 ◼   ► And the problem about like 16 sounding data,

01:14:52 ◼   ► it's like, well, in an era where they sell

01:14:55 ◼   ► multiple previous generations of iPhones,

01:14:58 ◼   ► I don't think it's a problem.

01:14:59 ◼   ► - I don't know.

01:15:01 ◼   ► 'Cause I feel like we'll be up to iPhone 20

01:15:03 ◼   ► and they'll still be selling this version of the product.

01:15:05 ◼   ► And I think that that makes it a bit more complicated.

01:15:09 ◼   ► - Maybe, although it might also be

01:15:11 ◼   ► that they're committing to update it

01:15:13 ◼   ► maybe every two or three years instead of more than that.

01:15:16 ◼   ► - Maybe.

01:15:17 ◼   ► Mark also says that throughout the year at least,

01:15:20 ◼   ► we'll get a new AirTag, a better range,

01:15:22 ◼   ► new version of the HomePod mini and the Apple TV

01:15:24 ◼   ► that are quote,

01:15:25 ◼   ► "Built with Apple's new smart home ecosystem in mind."

01:15:29 ◼   ► - Okay, all right.

01:15:31 ◼   ► I still think that there may be an Apple intelligence story.

01:15:33 ◼   ► I got some feedback from somebody who was like,

01:15:35 ◼   ► "What do you mean Apple intelligence

01:15:36 ◼   ► "doesn't really make sense on tvOS?"

01:15:37 ◼   ► I'm like, well, no,

01:15:39 ◼   ► I'm thinking like Apple intelligence on tvOS

01:15:41 ◼   ► is things like it's related to things that tvOS does,

01:15:46 ◼   ► or it's as a home hub

01:15:50 ◼   ► where part of their smart home ecosystem

01:15:52 ◼   ► is tagged with Apple intelligence of,

01:15:55 ◼   ► we're gonna control this or that.

01:15:56 ◼   ► I don't even know.

01:15:57 ◼   ► But like whatever they're doing there

01:15:58 ◼   ► makes sense to get everything kind of up to speed,

01:16:00 ◼   ► thread radios and all those,

01:16:02 ◼   ► and whatever else they're doing

01:16:04 ◼   ► as part of this forthcoming focus on the home

01:16:08 ◼   ► that they've sort of not had up to now,

01:16:10 ◼   ► which is great, like it's past due,

01:16:11 ◼   ► but great bringing on.

01:16:13 ◼   ► I did not love that Mark Gurman referred to the Apple TV

01:16:18 ◼   ► as a laggard.

01:16:19 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:16:21 ◼   ► - I mean.

01:16:22 ◼   ► - 'Cause like technically it's,

01:16:23 ◼   ► so here's the thing, technically it's not a laggard.

01:16:25 ◼   ► Technically it is still by far the best,

01:16:29 ◼   ► most powerful box you can buy for your TV.

01:16:32 ◼   ► It's only a laggard because Apple won't sell

01:16:36 ◼   ► a cheaper version to get their market share up.

01:16:39 ◼   ► Now I would argue that at this point,

01:16:41 ◼   ► again, they should really do that.

01:16:43 ◼   ► You're never gonna really compete with Amazon and Roku

01:16:46 ◼   ► because they're not playing the same game.

01:16:48 ◼   ► They're selling you stuff or getting your data

01:16:53 ◼   ► and they're happy to make a,

01:16:55 ◼   ► some of those things have such a, they're so slow.

01:16:58 ◼   ► It's such a bad interface.

01:16:59 ◼   ► I've tried them.

01:17:00 ◼   ► They're not very good.

01:17:01 ◼   ► Apple stuff is vastly better.

01:17:03 ◼   ► - Apple is a laggard in other ways

01:17:05 ◼   ► and the software is part of the problem.

01:17:08 ◼   ► Like there are parts of tvOS that could do

01:17:11 ◼   ► with a lot of work and there are also things

01:17:13 ◼   ► that tvOS lacks because Apple's unwilling to do deals

01:17:17 ◼   ► that people want them to do.

01:17:18 ◼   ► - Yes, I agree with that.

01:17:19 ◼   ► Although in most cases, if you compare it

01:17:21 ◼   ► to what the state of the art is with the other TV platforms,

01:17:25 ◼   ► it's not, like it's a laggard from the ideal.

01:17:30 ◼   ► - Yeah, that's kind of what I'm saying.

01:17:33 ◼   ► There are very few features of Roku or the Amazon Fire stuff

01:17:37 ◼   ► that I would look at and say,

01:17:39 ◼   ► well, I wish I had that on Apple TV.

01:17:41 ◼   ► In fact, the one that you mentioned, you alluded to,

01:17:43 ◼   ► is some people have made a deal with Netflix

01:17:46 ◼   ► so that Netflix is integrated into their stuff

01:17:48 ◼   ► and Apple just hasn't.

01:17:50 ◼   ► And, you know, somebody needs to,

01:17:52 ◼   ► Apple needs to swallow their pride there

01:17:54 ◼   ► 'cause it really hurts their product.

01:17:55 ◼   ► But in most cases, that stuff on the other side,

01:17:57 ◼   ► there are, there's like a live guide that Amazon,

01:18:00 ◼   ► I think has and like,

01:18:02 ◼   ► look, they need to do more with tvOS.

01:18:05 ◼   ► But just saying they're a laggard is weird to me

01:18:07 ◼   ► because in a lot of ways, they,

01:18:11 ◼   ► like if you use any of the other products,

01:18:13 ◼   ► you realize how much better Apple's hardware is.

01:18:16 ◼   ► Like just it's faster and more capable and more responsive

01:18:20 ◼   ► than the stuff on the other platforms.

01:18:22 ◼   ► But they are also, as Joe Rosenstiel has detailed,

01:18:25 ◼   ► repeatedly on his blog,

01:18:28 ◼   ► there are so many areas of low-hanging fruit for Apple

01:18:31 ◼   ► that they just have not taken off the tree,

01:18:34 ◼   ► like including like a live guide.

01:18:36 ◼   ► That would be one of my number one features is,

01:18:39 ◼   ► Apple TV needs a live section

01:18:41 ◼   ► that is properly like showing everything

01:18:43 ◼   ► that's currently on on anything that you've got that does,

01:18:47 ◼   ► you know, whether it's a free ad supported streaming

01:18:49 ◼   ► or you get Peacock and you get 20 channels with that,

01:18:52 ◼   ► and you've got ESPN, you know, whatever it is,

01:18:56 ◼   ► like, oh, that's such a great trend

01:18:59 ◼   ► and Apple's just sort of like very much living

01:19:02 ◼   ► 15 years ago in that.

01:19:03 ◼   ► So, okay, I guess they're a laggard in some places,

01:19:05 ◼   ► but I laugh 'cause he tossed it off like,

01:19:07 ◼   ► oh, what a laggard, it needs a hardware update.

01:19:09 ◼   ► And it's like hardware update is not Apple TV's problem.

01:19:12 ◼   ► Right, that's not the problem.

01:19:13 ◼   ► 'Cause he was saying it in the context

01:19:14 ◼   ► of there'll be a new Apple TV box and like great,

01:19:17 ◼   ► but like doesn't matter, doesn't matter,

01:19:20 ◼   ► it's the software that's the problem.

01:19:22 ◼   ► - I'll finish this out by reading a quote from Mark Gurman.

01:19:25 ◼   ► It's like that 2025 is ultimately remembered

01:19:28 ◼   ► as a stepping stone towards more revolutionary products

01:19:30 ◼   ► rather than a year of remarkable innovation.

01:19:33 ◼   ► 2025 will set the stage for future years of advancements

01:19:36 ◼   ► in mixed reality, smart home accessories

01:19:38 ◼   ► and foldable devices.

01:19:39 ◼   ► Do you think it's a good way to look at the year maybe,

01:19:41 ◼   ► right, like if it does end up playing out that way,

01:19:43 ◼   ► 'cause obviously, you know,

01:19:44 ◼   ► they're laying some of the groundwork

01:19:46 ◼   ► for some of the stuff they wanna do in smart home,

01:19:47 ◼   ► maybe if that ends up working out for them.

01:19:49 ◼   ► And also if they're gonna get to foldable,

01:19:51 ◼   ► they have to first make off iPhone super, super, super thin

01:19:54 ◼   ► and maybe this is the way they get there.

01:19:57 ◼   ► - So yep, I agree with Mark too.

01:20:00 ◼   ► When I wrote my predictions column in Macworld

01:20:02 ◼   ► for this year, I was like,

01:20:05 ◼   ► that's why the article ended up being

01:20:06 ◼   ► it's the year of Apple intelligence again,

01:20:09 ◼   ► is like, feels like a lot of that is going on.

01:20:10 ◼   ► And then on the hardware side,

01:20:12 ◼   ► it's just gonna kinda be mostly,

01:20:15 ◼   ► other than like that home thing is really interesting, right,

01:20:17 ◼   ► that home gadget, but most of it is gonna be,

01:20:20 ◼   ► the truth is Apple's products

01:20:22 ◼   ► are in pretty good places right now.

01:20:24 ◼   ► They don't need, they'll put the new chips in them

01:20:26 ◼   ► and that'll be great.

01:20:27 ◼   ► Like, I don't think this is a year

01:20:28 ◼   ► where any of these products needs a big overhaul

01:20:31 ◼   ► and I don't expect that they'll get a big overhaul.

01:20:33 ◼   ► They'll have that thin phone,

01:20:35 ◼   ► we have the weird smart home,

01:20:37 ◼   ► whatever thing they're doing with that screen

01:20:39 ◼   ► and accessories and modules or whatever.

01:20:43 ◼   ► And everything else is gonna be Apple intelligence,

01:20:46 ◼   ► Apple intelligence, Apple intelligence

01:20:47 ◼   ► and that's what this year is gonna be, I think.

01:20:50 ◼   ► - Yep.

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