00:00:00 ◼ ► We've been out of town for I think about 12 days. Just got back last night. Everything in my life
00:00:08 ◼ ► is a mess as a result of this. Like obviously, first of all, like my schedule is a mess. Like
00:00:14 ◼ ► that's a given. Like when you take 12 days away from town, when you get back, everything has to be
00:00:20 ◼ ► crammed before and after that. So hence why we're recording in a weird time. Sorry, my fault. My
00:00:26 ◼ ► house is a mess. Like there's boxes everywhere because this was our big like Christmas and New
00:00:31 ◼ ► Year's trip and there was a bunch of family events that we went to while we were gone for different
00:00:35 ◼ ► reasons and so we had all sorts of prep, you know, to prepare for this trip plus Christmas stuff.
00:00:41 ◼ ► There's boxes everywhere. There's a couple of returns stacked up. There's a ton of like unpacking
00:00:46 ◼ ► and laundry. We just got back last night. My car, a mess also. Like covered in dirt and mud and you
00:00:53 ◼ ► know the windshield washer fluid's empty. Like everything, you know, that's a mess. I personally,
00:00:57 ◼ ► like my body is a mess. Like not only have I eaten mostly cookies for the last two weeks,
00:01:01 ◼ ► but like it's the point where like I don't know if either of you have a smart scale, but you know,
00:01:07 ◼ ► one of the great things about a smart scale is that it records, you know, all your entries over,
00:01:11 ◼ ► you can see them over time. One of the bad things about a smart scale is that it records all your
00:01:15 ◼ ► entries and you can see them over time. And so this creates an incentive where if you've just had
00:01:20 ◼ ► a really indulgent week and you get home and you step on the scale for the first time, it can cross
00:01:26 ◼ ► a certain point where you're like, "Whoa!" and you jump off because it only records it once the data
00:01:32 ◼ ► like settles after like a second. So you have a window of time that if the reading is going to be
00:01:37 ◼ ► something you would rather not be in your permanent record, you can jump off the scale and just
00:01:41 ◼ ► revisit in a few days. And so that was, that was this morning's move. You know, like my face also
00:01:48 ◼ ► a mess. Like I'm covered in pimples because I don't have my usual products for the last 12 days.
00:01:52 ◼ ► I'm sitting here at my desk is a disaster. Like there's mail I have to deal with like all over
00:01:57 ◼ ► the place, different projects all over my desk. My computer, like the virtual environment of my
00:02:02 ◼ ► computer, also a mess. Like there's browser tabs open from before Christmas that I'm like, "Well,
00:02:08 ◼ ► if I order this thing, it's going to arrive while I'm gone. So let me wait till after Christmas to
00:02:12 ◼ ► do that." Or, "This thing has to wait till the new year or whatever." So browser tabs everywhere,
00:02:16 ◼ ► files all over my desktop I got to deal with. I can't even find my MacBook Air. I have, for the
00:02:21 ◼ ► first time ever, I have lost a computer. Like I'm sure I'll find it in the next day or two, but like
00:02:26 ◼ ► I currently cannot, it's so thin and light I lost it. Like I- - They should have the thing where it
00:02:29 ◼ ► makes a noise like with your phone where you make the beeping noise. I don't think they have that
00:02:32 ◼ ► for Macs, but they should. - Yeah, I can't even find it in my, find my list. I'm like, "Oh boy."
00:02:37 ◼ ► - Oh, that's alarming. - Yeah, so I'm sure, I'm sure it'll turn up, but I've never lost a computer
00:02:42 ◼ ► or electronics device before ever. And I currently have lost a MacBook Air, but it's fine.
00:02:46 ◼ ► I haven't had that much time to look yet. - Who is it who had the story about the original MacBook
00:02:50 ◼ ► Air was like in a stack of papers and got thrown in the garbage? Was that Merlin? - Well, I hope
00:02:54 ◼ ► that didn't happen to mine. Although I guess they're being replaced soon, but I don't want
00:02:58 ◼ ► that to be the reason I replaced it. - Real-time follow-up, allegedly it was Steven Levy who told
00:03:02 ◼ ► that story. - That's right, yes. Anyway, so every, even like Overcast is a mess. Like right, I decided
00:03:09 ◼ ► right before the Christmas traveling for our family, I decided this would be a good time to
00:03:15 ◼ ► start rewriting the watch app to use the new sync engine. So it's like, you know, there's like parts
00:03:20 ◼ ► all over the floor and then I get up and leave for two weeks. Like that's, so I'm coming back to that.
00:03:24 ◼ ► Everything around me is a mess right now, including me. And oh my God, this, I cannot wait to, you know,
00:03:33 ◼ ► slowly work through all of this and get all this processed and put away and recycled and
00:03:40 ◼ ► hopefully locate my MacBook Air. And this hopefully will all be behind me by next week's show.
00:03:46 ◼ ► - Vacation, all you ever wanted. - How are you? - I would like to hear John's Christmas and birthday
00:03:53 ◼ ► results, but I'd also like to throw in just very briefly, as I sit here, it is what, Friday
00:03:59 ◼ ► afternoon and they are calling, the weather people are calling for as much as 10 inches of snow in
00:04:06 ◼ ► Richmond on Monday. Let me assure you gentlemen, that we can have another argument about whether or
00:04:12 ◼ ► not I'm in the South. And I would argue that getting 10 inches of snow would indicate I'm not in
00:04:15 ◼ ► the South, but that's either here nor there. Let me just tell you that we definitely do not have
00:04:20 ◼ ► the equipment to handle 10 inches of snow. This will be the cluster of all clusters if we actually
00:04:25 ◼ ► get 10 inches of snow dropped on us. Richmond will be shut down for at least a week, probably more. So
00:04:30 ◼ ► I am not currently in a mess Marco, but I am potentially going to be in a very messy mess
00:04:36 ◼ ► sometime in the next couple of days. - Yeah, like places that get regular snow are equipped to
00:04:40 ◼ ► handle it and the people don't treat it as like the apocalypse. Whereas like a place like where
00:04:45 ◼ ► you are, you probably have a lot less salt and plows and stuff and you probably, and the people
00:04:51 ◼ ► I'm sure have like cleared out the grocery store shelves and are treating it like the apocalypse.
00:04:55 ◼ ► - That is 100% true. I actually went out this morning, I've been running around all day myself
00:04:59 ◼ ► and they already put the like stripes of salt on the road. It's currently Friday, snow isn't due
00:05:04 ◼ ► until Sunday at the earliest. They're already striping all the roads with salt to get ready
00:05:08 ◼ ► for it, which is good. But yeah, we will all quote unquote die for the next week if we end up
00:05:16 ◼ ► with 10 inches of snow. Although the way it usually works is it'll cross the mountains west
00:05:20 ◼ ► of Charlottesville, the Blue Ridge Mountains, and then it'll kind of peter out not too long after
00:05:28 ◼ ► possibility. So I think happy thoughts and I'll let you decide if that means think snow thoughts
00:05:32 ◼ ► or think no snow thoughts. That being said, Jon, how are your holiday results and birthday results?
00:05:38 ◼ ► Because happy 50th birthday, you are now 50 in three days. So happy birthday. How are your
00:05:44 ◼ ► results? - 50 and three days, not 50 in three days, just to clarify. - That's what I said.
00:05:48 ◼ ► - I know it just sounds similar for people who are listening. I just want people to know that
00:05:52 ◼ ► my birthday has already passed. I am now the big five-o, really enjoying those retirement catch-up
00:06:00 ◼ ► savings contributions. - Wait, you're talking about the tomato condiment or is this like a...
00:06:07 ◼ ► - It's not catch-up. - Ah, thank you. It was that Boston accent that got... - To certain
00:06:14 ◼ ► retirement accounts, the IRS says you can put in a little extra if you're 50 if you're trying to
00:06:18 ◼ ► catch up for lost time. I actually did that last year because I was 50 last year as well
00:06:22 ◼ ► for one day. But yeah, no, it was fine. Birthday was good. Christmas was good. Everything here is
00:06:30 ◼ ► fine. - All right, let's do some follow-up. We mentioned, was it overtime, I believe, last week
00:06:38 ◼ ► or last episode that we were talking about how Aaron's car is? And Marco was given the hard sell,
00:06:44 ◼ ► understandably, on full battery electric vehicles. And I was saying how I'm really enjoying the
00:06:49 ◼ ► plug-in hybrid. And I think Marco, maybe it was John, brought up a really funny post. That's what
00:06:56 ◼ ► I thought. Every time I think it's you, though, it ends up being John. So this was the one time
00:06:59 ◼ ► I was actually right. - Just do the opposite of what you think. - That's true. - George
00:07:03 ◼ ► Costanza technique. - That's exactly right. - Tune us out on rye. - So Marco brought up this very
00:07:08 ◼ ► funny post of what it would be like if you grew up on electric cars and went and test drove a
00:07:15 ◼ ► gasoline or petrol-powered one for the first time. A friend of the show, Spencer, was able to dig it
00:07:19 ◼ ► up for me. And I will put it in the show notes for this episode. I will say I skimmed it real quick
00:07:26 ◼ ► again. And I remembered really liking this post when I first read it several years ago.
00:07:30 ◼ ► Skimming it now, maybe it's my own priors, as Merlin would say, that I'm bringing to the table
00:07:34 ◼ ► here. But it reads really obnoxious, so maybe it wasn't as good as I thought. - Well, and I actually
00:07:39 ◼ ► am not sure this is it. So I went searching for it with every tool I have. I even tried like ChatGPT,
00:07:46 ◼ ► like what did ATP talk about? Like I tried, I could not find, because the version that I remember
00:07:51 ◼ ► was a blog post on somebody's website. Now I found this version, and I'm not actually sure
00:07:57 ◼ ► it's the same one. I actually don't think it is. But in this version, like if you search for a few
00:08:03 ◼ ► of the phrases in it, like in quotes in Google or whatever, you can find this version is all over
00:08:08 ◼ ► the internet. Like this has been copied from forums and everything else, like it's all over the place.
00:08:12 ◼ ► So this is obviously out there, and this is, you know, there are parts of this that are funny, but
00:08:31 ◼ ► if this is it, it was also copied onto somebody's private blog. And I remember it having like a,
00:08:42 ◼ ► - Yeah. Anyway, but you know, as some minor follow up to your EV-ness, I did want to tell you that
00:08:50 ◼ ► I did just take, you know, all this, my 12 days of travel here was probably a combination of 500
00:08:59 ◼ ► miles maybe, 600 miles. And I actually never had to use a fast charger once because at my in-laws
00:09:06 ◼ ► place, they have like a circular saw 220 volt outlet in their barn. And so whenever I'm there,
00:09:11 ◼ ► I just plug into that. It's about, I can get about 30 amps out of it. So I just plug into that and
00:09:15 ◼ ► my car is full overnight and that's it. And then, so I charged up at my house. I went up there,
00:09:20 ◼ ► I charged there, drove around a lot and then drove home. And I got home with like, you know, 20%
00:09:27 ◼ ► or so. - Nice. - Just to give you some idea of like, you know, all of your range anxiety,
00:09:33 ◼ ► what I'm trying to do is, I mean, look, nothing's going to cure your range anxiety about a full
00:09:39 ◼ ► battery EV until you actually own one. But what I'm trying to do is kind of just give you, you know,
00:09:43 ◼ ► examples of like how much you don't really need to think about it as much as you think you will.
00:10:00 ◼ ► before I need to plug in or want to be at a place where I can plug in. And for different people,
00:10:06 ◼ ► this is different. Like I'm the kind of person where like, I don't even let my phone battery
00:10:10 ◼ ► ever go all the way to zero. I have, like when people say like, my phone died, that kind of
00:10:15 ◼ ► irritates me. That's like saying my kid starved. It's like, that implies some, you know, some like
00:10:21 ◼ ► nothing, this action just happened. It's like, well, you didn't charge it and you used it down
00:10:26 ◼ ► to zero. Anyway, I am, I'm a person who like, my phone has never died. I have, like my, I literally
00:10:32 ◼ ► have never drained a phone battery to zero because I manage it. If it's getting down low, I'll stop
00:10:38 ◼ ► using the phone or I'll put it, you know, in obviously low power mode or if I'm really desperate,
00:10:43 ◼ ► like airplane mode, but I don't think I've ever, outside of like a hike, I don't think I've ever
00:10:46 ◼ ► had to do that. Like a week long hike I'm saying. So where my phone still didn't reach zero. Anyway,
00:10:51 ◼ ► so the point is, so you know, with the car, I'm willing to get it down to, you know, 15% if I'm
00:10:58 ◼ ► arriving somewhere that I know I can definitely charge, like, you know, a known fast charger or
00:11:03 ◼ ► my house or my in-laws house, like I'm willing to let it go that low. And if you are willing to let
00:11:08 ◼ ► it go that low, you can get a lot of places. Cause the thing is like, even after, you know, suppose
00:11:13 ◼ ► you get it down to 15%, well, if your car has like 300 miles of range, that's still plenty of rings
00:11:20 ◼ ► that you could use to drive to the next charger if you really had to, like the next one, you know,
00:11:24 ◼ ► the next closest one. So the reality of owning an EV is you think it's going to be so much worse
00:11:31 ◼ ► and you think you have to like plan every single bit and really the margin of error is pretty big
00:11:37 ◼ ► and the capacities you have are pretty big and this is, and it's getting better all the time as
00:11:41 ◼ ► more stations open up. So like, even if you pull up to a charger and it's broken or full or whatever,
00:11:47 ◼ ► you can probably just go to the next one with the range you have left, or you can probably make it
00:11:52 ◼ ► your entire trip without even using the fast chargers. So this is a problem that is understandable
00:11:58 ◼ ► for you to be all tense about, but again, I think once you get an EV for the first time, which I
00:12:04 ◼ ► think should be soon, I think you're going to be very surprised how little of a problem it really is.
00:12:10 ◼ ► Yeah, and I mean, during the, the way I remember that conversation is, and as we've established
00:12:15 ◼ ► already this episode and many times before, my memory is trash, but the way I remember the
00:12:19 ◼ ► conversation was that during the course of the conversation, I pretty much convinced myself that
00:12:25 ◼ ► there are almost no trips I ever go on that would even necessitate a charging stop. So as an example,
00:12:30 ◼ ► you know, when we go to the beach every summer, the place that we consistently go to, Cape Charles,
00:12:34 ◼ ► on the Eastern shore, 140 miles away and damn near any EV worth its salt, is going to be able to go,
00:12:41 ◼ ► you know, 200 plus miles. So that shouldn't be an issue. Now, I did bring up that we're going to,
00:12:46 ◼ ► we're actually having a second vacation this summer that's like four or five hours away. I forget how
00:12:50 ◼ ► many miles that is off hand, but I think it was far enough that it wouldn't necessitate a stop.
00:12:53 ◼ ► But in the entire lifetime of Erin's Volvo, her prior Volvo, may it rest in peace, we took like
00:13:00 ◼ ► one trip, I think that was more than like two or 300 miles away. So I don't debate that
00:13:07 ◼ ► intellectually you're a hundred percent correct that I would probably almost never need to worry
00:13:12 ◼ ► about stopping at a charger. And even if I did, it would be so infrequent. It would almost,
00:13:16 ◼ ► it would be near as makes no difference to zero, but it's still scary. And for, for the needs that
00:13:22 ◼ ► we have today and easing our toe in the water, I really stand by our choice for PHEV. But we'll see
00:13:27 ◼ ► what happens in the future. And I was actually talking to my father this morning. We just saw
00:13:30 ◼ ► them just a couple hours ago and I was talking to my dad about it. And I was saying to him that,
00:13:34 ◼ ► you know, in, in a way I'm getting a little bit of the itch. You know, I've had my, my Volkswagen
00:13:39 ◼ ► for six years now and actually almost six and a half. And I'm kind of getting the itch to get
00:13:45 ◼ ► something new. And if I do that, I think I would get a battery electric, which is what I said last
00:13:50 ◼ ► episode. Um, but I have a couple of problems. First of all, there's none that I really,
00:13:55 ◼ ► really love right now. There's no BEVs. There's no battery electric vehicles that I really,
00:13:59 ◼ ► really love right now. Um, and even if, even if I went for one of the ones that I really,
00:14:04 ◼ ► that I think I really like, it's like 150% of the cost of my car. You know, my car, when I bought it
00:14:10 ◼ ► six and a half years ago was $40,000 out the door, which is a lot of money, don't get me wrong,
00:14:15 ◼ ► but it's affordable for, for the person that does the sorts of things that I do. It's affordable.
00:14:20 ◼ ► Whereas to get a approximate equivalent, but full electric is like 60, 65, $70,000. And that,
00:14:28 ◼ ► and then you start, if I wanted to go to like the Rivians or the world or the model S's of the
00:14:32 ◼ ► world, now you're talking like 80, 90, 100, 110. And that's just, it's too rich for my blood. Now,
00:14:36 ◼ ► I feel like John, all of a sudden where I, where I'm refusing to spend, you know, any more money
00:14:41 ◼ ► on a car. Um, unlike John, I'll, I'll buy cars from different makes, but that's neither here
00:14:45 ◼ ► nor there. Um, but I just, I, it's so much money. And so not only do I not want to have my left leg
00:14:51 ◼ ► atrophy, but I just don't want to spend that kind of money right now, especially if there's not one
00:14:55 ◼ ► car that I can look at and go, that's the one, that's it. I want to, you know, QRSTUV from such
00:15:01 ◼ ► and such manufacturer. That's the one, it's the only one for me. And, and so because of the
00:15:06 ◼ ► combination of those two things, well, and my car is perfectly fine as I sit here today, I don't
00:15:10 ◼ ► think it's happening anytime soon, but I'm starting to get the edge. Yeah. I think, I mean, first of
00:15:14 ◼ ► all, like I don't, I don't think it's quite fair to compare what you paid six years ago to what
00:15:18 ◼ ► prices are today because I think prices of everything will be higher today. But, but you know,
00:15:23 ◼ ► even setting that aside, of course, yeah, EVs tend to be more expensive because batteries are still
00:15:27 ◼ ► very expensive. So of course that, that is a factor to consider. And of course you can do like,
00:15:31 ◼ ► you know, the Tesla configurator style math where you're like, well, I'm going to actually be saving
00:15:35 ◼ ► this amount of money here and this amount of money, you know, you can, you can BS your way into it,
00:15:39 ◼ ► however you want to do it. But, you know, and again, like if your car is working perfectly fine,
00:15:51 ◼ ► you know, whatever that is for you whether it's like, you know, a big expensive repair,
00:15:56 ◼ ► you know, or whatever, like, you know, next time a motivating event happens that has you,
00:16:01 ◼ ► you know, has you looking, I would say, look at EVs first. And because, you know, there is,
00:16:07 ◼ ► you know, you're going to have some degree of hesitation of like the fear of the range thing,
00:16:13 ◼ ► I think is going to keep, it's going to keep you wanting to stay in your comfort zone. And of
00:16:19 ◼ ► course, you know, you have made a large part of your identity about things like driving stick
00:16:22 ◼ ► shift. Like, so that's, that's a hard thing to change. And I get that. And I'm not saying you
00:16:26 ◼ ► need to change it, but I think you, you will benefit from really examining hard when the time
00:16:32 ◼ ► comes. Am I talking myself out of an EV for good reasons? Or am I talking myself out of an EV for
00:16:37 ◼ ► like, you know, kind of defensive reasons that that might not hold up to scrutiny with my own
00:16:43 ◼ ► standards down the road? And, you know, even like, you know, even, you know, things like the,
00:16:51 ◼ ► you were talking about it very much as like a, like a prepper dad mentality, which was like,
00:16:57 ◼ ► yeah, because, you know, we, I mean, look, we all do this sometimes. But like, it's like, okay,
00:17:01 ◼ ► I charge up my house. And then when I get to where I'm going, I'll be able to plug in to their,
00:17:06 ◼ ► to their, you know, regular 110 outlet. And like, when I, when I got my first Tesla in the trunk,
00:17:11 ◼ ► I, or in the front, I think I carried around like a 50 foot extension cord and all these different
00:17:17 ◼ ► adapters. And I'm like, some time, someday I'm going to be somewhere where I'm going to need to
00:17:22 ◼ ► plug in. So, and what if the outlet is more than 10 feet away? Well, I'm going to need this. I'm
00:17:26 ◼ ► going to need that. And I was, I carried around all this, all these wires and things for the whole
00:17:31 ◼ ► lease, the next car carried it over, carried them again for another three years. And I never used
00:17:38 ◼ ► any of it. I never had to. So now I just carry like the mobile charger, which has, you know, the,
00:17:45 ◼ ► the, the, the 220 plug and the 110 plug. I use it only at my in-laws house in their circular saw
00:17:51 ◼ ► outlet. I've never used it anywhere else because there are, you know, there are charges everywhere.
00:17:56 ◼ ► But when, again, before you know this world, you're thinking like, how can I have everything
00:18:02 ◼ ► I need with me at all times? So it will, so I will always be prepared for every eventuality.
00:18:07 ◼ ► And like, yes, some people need to think that way in some conditions. There are people who like,
00:18:13 ◼ ► if you're going off-roading somewhere on the motorness in a gas vehicle, you bring cans of
00:18:18 ◼ ► gas with you. There are needs for that kind of thing. We don't have those needs. Like the vast
00:18:26 ◼ ► majority of the time when we're living in the suburbs, driving our EVs around, whatever we need
00:18:30 ◼ ► to do, like if you don't have the need to carry around a giant extra tank of gas, we're with you
00:18:37 ◼ ► all the time. You probably don't need to think that much about your EV charging either. You
00:18:41 ◼ ► probably don't need to carry around a 110 volt core because you'll never use it. Cause it's too
00:18:45 ◼ ► slow. Like when you, when you get somewhere that you, that you don't have like a place that's yours
00:18:51 ◼ ► or your family's, like if you're on, you're going on a road trip, when you get somewhere, you know,
00:18:54 ◼ ► what you're going to do? You're going to go to the nearest fast charger, charge for 20 minutes,
00:18:57 ◼ ► then keep going. Like that's what you'll be fine the whole trip. Like all your local driving,
00:19:05 ◼ ► maybe you're down to like 40%, you'll stop again at a fast charger next time you pass one. And
00:19:11 ◼ ► you'll sit there for 20 minutes, get, you know, get a cup of coffee or you won't, you'll get a
00:19:15 ◼ ► cup of water or spill it onto your laptop and then you'll get back in the car and you'll go and it'll
00:19:20 ◼ ► be fine. Like you'll never use all the gear that you think you will need. You will never use that
00:19:24 ◼ ► extension cord. You will never use anybody's 110 volt outlet, including your own. Like you will
00:19:29 ◼ ► just never do that. And it's fine. But again, like until you experience that, like your first EV,
00:19:36 ◼ ► I guarantee you, you will have those giant extension cords somewhere hidden in the front
00:19:40 ◼ ► or whatever. Cause you won't know that yet. And that's fine. We all go through that. But trust me,
00:19:44 ◼ ► you will go through that. You will realize you don't need any of that stuff. And then on the
00:19:47 ◼ ► other side, you'd be like, Oh yeah, it's fine. And this is just better in every other way.
00:19:54 ◼ ► you know, igniting right now, the earlier long trip, the second beach trip that we're taking
00:19:59 ◼ ► this coming summer, the one that I'm presenting as this insurmountably far away trip, because it is
00:20:04 ◼ ► in my defense further away than we have typically traveled by car recently, 320 miles. And I'm
00:20:11 ◼ ► guessing that your BMW could probably either get there on one tank or charge if you will,
00:20:21 ◼ ► And I wouldn't because what I would do is again, like I would look at the map and like, all right,
00:20:29 ◼ ► I would stop at that fast charger, you know, 80% or whatever. Then I'd have my vacation again,
00:20:34 ◼ ► I could drive around freely because I did plenty of range to drive around for local errands. And
00:20:38 ◼ ► then on the way home, I would just go and stop at whatever charger I could hit when the car was near
00:20:44 ◼ ► 20%. Yeah, like, because there's probably multiple ones on the route. Or if there's like, if there's
00:20:50 ◼ ► one that is like, one of my favorites where I know, for instance, like, if I know that, oh,
00:20:54 ◼ ► this one's in the parking lot of a Target, and I can go in there and shop for a while or whatever,
00:20:58 ◼ ► like, you know, there are certainly you get to know the chargers that are that are in your region.
00:21:01 ◼ ► So you know, you'll know like, oh, this one has like a good restaurant next to it, or this one
00:21:04 ◼ ► has a convenient, you know, comedian store, I can pick up some drinks and go to the bathroom. This
00:21:09 ◼ ► one has clean bathrooms, like you learn that stuff. But it's like, it's so much less of a thing
00:21:14 ◼ ► than you think. And it's so much less of a burden than you think. And you net like, if I have to go
00:21:18 ◼ ► on a long trip, it almost doesn't matter at all how far away it is. It just makes it in the same
00:21:24 ◼ ► way like what you know, in a gas car, you don't think in multiples of 350 miles for that's how
00:21:28 ◼ ► much your gas tank holds or whatever, like you don't think that way. You just go and you look
00:21:32 ◼ ► and if you need gas, you look around, say, oh, where's the nearest gas station? Even if you do
00:21:35 ◼ ► the same thing, just like it's a little bit longer to fuel up. And there's fewer of them. But it's
00:21:40 ◼ ► the same kind of mechanic. Like you just go on the trip that you want to go on and you accommodate
00:21:45 ◼ ► what the car needs every so often and it's not that big of a deal. - Yeah, I hear you. I know,
00:21:51 ◼ ► we'll see what happens. Again, I don't plan on buying anything soon, but I have maintained since
00:21:55 ◼ ► before we started talking about it in overtime last week that I do think my next car for sure
00:22:00 ◼ ► will be a full electric. And we'll see with Aaron's. The EX90, I think we talked about this, the EX90
00:22:06 ◼ ► is supposed to be good but not great and that is obviously the most analogous to her current car.
00:22:11 ◼ ► So we'll see what happens. - Also, other thing to point out too on that topic too. Something that
00:22:16 ◼ ► John said a thousand years ago, when you first get your very first EV, it doesn't even have to be a
00:22:21 ◼ ► very good car. EVs are just so good, like when you first experienced them, like just the feeling of
00:22:27 ◼ ► the electric drive. - The SSDs of the car world, I think I called them. - Yeah, like so like, and
00:22:32 ◼ ► that's, I know a lot of people who, mostly for price reasons but also maybe just for like testing
00:22:37 ◼ ► the waters reasons, a lot of people I know, their first EV was something relatively small and
00:22:42 ◼ ► relatively inexpensive. Something like, there's that Kia little box thing, like those are fun.
00:22:48 ◼ ► Even just base model Model 3s are actually fairly inexpensive. And there's all sorts of smallish
00:22:55 ◼ ► EVs that a lot of the brands have that seem pretty fun. Like the IONIQ series from Hyundai.
00:23:12 ◼ ► relatively like smaller, less expensive cars compared to like the flagship that you're talking
00:23:17 ◼ ► about. You're talking about these big flagship SUVs and big flagship sedans. Like that's not
00:23:21 ◼ ► what most people buy. Most people are buying like the smaller, more affordable ones, just like the
00:23:27 ◼ ► rest of the car market. It doesn't have to be a really impressive car in other ways for an EV to
00:23:33 ◼ ► be awesome. Because EVs are awesome. So like you can get like a reasonably inexpensive, you know,
00:23:39 ◼ ► relatively inexpensive one and it's still gonna be amazing. You know, I see so many like the Hondys,
00:23:45 ◼ ► the Mach-Es, like I see so many around that are just like, you know, not super high-end cars.
00:23:50 ◼ ► Just kind of mid-range cars that maybe have a little bit high-end features but are not like
00:23:59 ◼ ► the biggest Rivian SUV out there or like the Model S. Like don't be like, you're looking at like,
00:24:06 ◼ ► would you get a Mercedes S-Class? Like would you get like a Range Rover? Like probably not.
00:24:12 ◼ ► That's what you're comparing these purchases to. Like, you know, look in the mid-range and even the
00:24:18 ◼ ► low-end of the EV world and you'll find a lot of good value there. And you can even, I mean,
00:24:22 ◼ ► I don't know if you'd ever go this route, you can consider the used route as well. Used EVs can be
00:24:27 ◼ ► had for very little compared to I think what they're worth. And you know, you lose some range by the
00:24:34 ◼ ► battery being a few years old but not as much as you think. I mean, again, like I know a lot of
00:24:38 ◼ ► people like our friends at Jason's know, a lot of people like their first EV was something that had
00:24:42 ◼ ► way less range. Like, you know, under a hundred miles a lot of times. And those are still amazing
00:24:53 ◼ ► fine. Oh absolutely. And even then, like it's just like driving around a cool futuristic golf cart.
00:25:00 ◼ ► Like it's so fun. I think you'd have a lot of enjoyment out of that even if it was not a,
00:25:06 ◼ ► like an extremely high-powered one. Yeah, I mean, because on me I would go for the extremely high
00:25:11 ◼ ► powered one. And if I were to buy one today, I think I would buy an IONIQ 5N or an EV6 GT,
00:25:18 ◼ ► which are many ways the same car and in many ways not. But I mean, I'm looking at the MSRPs for each
00:25:24 ◼ ► of them and it's $62,000 for the EV6 GT, which is the one I was leaning toward and $66,000 for the
00:25:30 ◼ ► IONIQ 5N, which is a lot of money. I'm not saying it's unreasonable money. It's just a lot of money.
00:25:35 ◼ ► You don't need the 5N. I guarantee you the regular IONIQ 5 is faster than your car. I don't even
00:25:41 ◼ ► I haven't even looked at the specs. I bet it's faster. I don't know. You might be right. I don't
00:25:44 ◼ ► know. I'm curious now. I don't know if I'll be able to find it while we're recording. Go test
00:25:47 ◼ ► drive one. I'm sure it'll feel faster. Whether or not it is faster is different. By the way,
00:25:52 ◼ ► the regular IONIQ 5, 300 miles of range, 41K. I see that is a lot more affordable. I don't
00:25:58 ◼ ► love the look of the IONIQ 5. I think it looks cool. I don't know. It's a little too quirky,
00:26:03 ◼ ► but then I mean, honestly, the EV6 is also quirky in just very different ways. Yeah. I don't know
00:26:07 ◼ ► how to figure out how quick this is without doing some deep dives. So I'll have to save that for
00:26:11 ◼ ► another time. And also like, you know, certain metrics don't reflect things like, well, when you
00:26:17 ◼ ► step on the pedal, it goes instantly. There is no delay. So like there are different attributes too
00:26:22 ◼ ► of performance where like, you know, maybe it might, you know, if you can find something that
00:26:25 ◼ ► beats it in like the quarter mile, like, well, that might be different from how it actually
00:26:29 ◼ ► feels to you to use it in regular driving. Oh, you're exactly right. By the way, also the Mach-E
00:26:35 ◼ ► 320 miles, $40,000. Just, just put it out there. Some very close friends have a Mach-E. And despite
00:26:41 ◼ ► them choosing a Marco style color from everything I can tell, it's very nice. I haven't been in it
00:26:45 ◼ ► yet, but I've seen it many times and it seems very nice. All right, moving on. Michael Stark,
00:26:53 ◼ ► here's the thing. We were already talking earlier in this very episode about how my memory is trash
00:26:58 ◼ ► and that is true, but there are occasions where I'm right. And I convinced myself that I'm wrong
00:27:03 ◼ ► because I know my memory is trash. I knew that recents was not new, despite what we talked about
00:27:08 ◼ ► last week. I could swear it, but I didn't believe myself. Well, Michael Stark, Stark writes, the
00:27:12 ◼ ► recents item has been there for many, many years and it's even visible in the default installation
00:27:16 ◼ ► of Mac OS. That's what I thought. Additionally, Odin writes, not only is it not new, but unless
00:27:21 ◼ ► I'm misremembering, for years now when setting up a new Mac or new user, it's the default folder
00:27:26 ◼ ► that the finder opens to. I believe that's correct. And then Joe Lyon writes, yes, recents is the
00:27:31 ◼ ► default finder view and icon mode and it's infuriating to me. I'm sure Apple has all of the
00:27:35 ◼ ► market research in the world to show that relatively no one knows how to use the finder, navigate the
00:27:39 ◼ ► file structure, create hierarchies, etc. And I'm sure that they've discovered that most people
00:27:44 ◼ ► don't know and don't care where their files are, like on iOS. So they just gave in and said, fine,
00:27:48 ◼ ► here's a recents list. Change the default view if you want, but we know 90% of you won't.
00:27:52 ◼ ► Eric Juergens writes, with regard to vision pro displays, Samsung in conjunction with Stanford
00:27:58 ◼ ► University has developed a 10,000 DPI screen, or nearly three times the display density of the
00:28:04 ◼ ► current vision pro, which is about 3,300 or almost 3,400 points per inch. For comparison, the earliest
00:28:10 ◼ ► reference I could find of the Sony micro display used in vision pro seems to be an article from
00:28:13 ◼ ► 2022, which notes the display was made in 2021 or about two to three years before the vision pro was
00:28:19 ◼ ► announced. And we'll put a link to that article in the show notes. Given this, perhaps the more
00:28:23 ◼ ► pixel dense vision pro could be released in 2027 or 2028. Yeah, maybe add a year or two
00:28:28 ◼ ► to that. Cause if you look at the article about the Samsung and Stanford screen, this is less a
00:28:32 ◼ ► commercial product, more and more of a research effort, but Hey, if they can figure out how to
00:28:36 ◼ ► manufacture it affordably, maybe this will be the next technology. And so to give a reasonable
00:28:42 ◼ ► timeline for a vision pro with three times the display density, hopefully for the same low, low
00:28:48 ◼ ► price of $3,500 2028, 2029, maybe those are the years, but keep an eye on it. But it's good to see
00:28:54 ◼ ► some story out there about displays that could substantially increase the pixel density of a high
00:29:00 ◼ ► end device. And then here's a PSA for you. This is from a while ago, actually. Here's why you
00:29:07 ◼ ► shouldn't use iPhone mirroring on a corporate Mac writes Mac rumors. According to a blog post by
00:29:11 ◼ ► security firm, SEVCO, the core issue lies in how iPhone mirroring interacts with Mac OS's file
00:29:16 ◼ ► system and metadata. When activated, the feature creates app stubs for iOS applications in a
00:29:21 ◼ ► specific directory on the Mac users, your username, library, daemon containers, data, library caches.
00:29:27 ◼ ► These app stubs contain metadata about the iOS apps, including icons, application names, dates,
00:29:32 ◼ ► versions, and file descriptions. While they don't include the full executable code, they provide
00:29:36 ◼ ► enough information for Mac OS to treat them as installed applications. The problem arises because
00:29:40 ◼ ► many enterprise security and it management tools routinely scan Macs for installed software.
00:29:45 ◼ ► These tools often use Mac OS's built-in metadata system, which now includes these iOS app stubs.
00:29:50 ◼ ► As a result, personal iPhone apps can inadvertently appear in corporate software inventories.
00:29:55 ◼ ► Yeah, it's another one of the great advantages of corporate malware that is constantly scanning
00:30:00 ◼ ► your computer. When something like this comes out, it's not like the people who make this corporate
00:30:04 ◼ ► scanning software are on top of the latest advances in Mac OS. And so when iPhone mirroring
00:30:10 ◼ ► comes out, they're not like, "We've got a new version that accounts for that." They probably
00:30:13 ◼ ► never even tested it. But users are going to find out when they, "Oh, I'd like to use iPhone mirroring
00:30:18 ◼ ► on my work Mac." And they do that, and then suddenly they have essentially revealed every app
00:30:22 ◼ ► that's installed on their iPhone to the corporate scanning thing, which maybe is not what they wanted
00:30:27 ◼ ► to do. Setting aside that even if there's nothing on there that you wanted to hide, now the scanner
00:30:32 ◼ ► is going to say, "Well, look at all these new apps that this person has installed." And maybe
00:30:34 ◼ ► someone comes and pays you a visit and says you shouldn't be installing personal apps on your work
00:30:39 ◼ ► computer and yada, yada. Although I do find it interesting that this is secretly how this is
00:30:43 ◼ ► implementing, these little sort of empty app stubs that are enough of an app to be recognized as an
00:30:49 ◼ ► app and to have an icon and a creator or whatever, but they have no actual executable code in them.
00:30:53 ◼ ► And that's how they implemented the thing where Mac OS is aware of the apps on your phone. Instead
00:30:57 ◼ ► of just communicating over the network, they spray a bunch of files into the file system and say,
00:31:02 ◼ ► "Here's a bunch of apps that are on your phone." Interesting implementation, but be aware of that.
00:31:07 ◼ ► Yeah, this is a little bit older story, but I thought it was worth noting. If you haven't
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00:33:15 ◼ ► iOS 18. It's been out for a while now, and I haven't heard any complaints here in the house
00:33:27 ◼ ► ever since when it first dropped. But a friend of the show, Quinn Nelson, writes, "I don't know of
00:33:31 ◼ ► any iOS update more hated by normal people than the iOS 18 Photos app redesign." I don't love it,
00:33:38 ◼ ► but I also don't hate it. I have a very kind of milquetoasty opinion about this, to be honest
00:33:43 ◼ ► with you. It's fine. I don't love it, but I've gotten used to it, and it's fine. The one thing
00:33:49 ◼ ► I will say is I really genuinely enjoy the trips feature, where it tries to figure out when you've
00:33:54 ◼ ► gone on a trip and it has its own bespoke section for that. That, A plus. Everything else, it's fine.
00:34:00 ◼ ► Quinn's read here. This is a thing. This is the first thing that I heard from normal people in my
00:34:06 ◼ ► life when iOS 18 came out way back when, because I was trying to get people to update on day one,
00:34:11 ◼ ► instead of waiting for that time when Apple pushes the update on everybody. If you look at the sort
00:34:17 ◼ ► of non-tech enthusiast world, what do people know or think about iOS 18? The answer is,
00:34:24 ◼ ► the Photos app is bad. Don't update the iOS 18 because the Photos app is bad. Here's all the
00:34:28 ◼ ► reasons that the Photo app is bad. I put this item in here because I think we in the tech nerd sphere
00:34:34 ◼ ► are not talking too much about that. There was a little bit of news about that back in the betas,
00:34:42 ◼ ► But now that it's been released, I don't hear a lot of people in our circles complaining about it.
00:34:46 ◼ ► My personal opinion is also that it is not, I don't think it's better than the one that came
00:34:51 ◼ ► before, but I don't think it's that much worse. But let me tell you, if you just go to like,
00:35:03 ◼ ► the fact that regular people are saying anything about iOS 18 is probably bad for Apple.
00:35:07 ◼ ► Because what Apple wants is just like, oh, my iPhone got better and they shouldn't know the
00:35:13 ◼ ► number 18. They shouldn't care that there's an iOS update. Maybe they care about the new emoji,
00:35:17 ◼ ► which is a big driver for people actually updating their phone or whatever. Regular people fear OS
00:35:23 ◼ ► updates because they think it's going to break stuff or whatever. So as far as regular people
00:35:28 ◼ ► are concerned, no news is good news for Apple, but that's not what's happening. iOS 18, people know
00:35:33 ◼ ► the number 18 and they know it because everyone seems to hate the Photos app. And I wanted to talk
00:35:38 ◼ ► about here, first of all, to hear what you all think of the Photos app. It sounds like Casey's
00:35:41 ◼ ► kind of where I am, where it's like, I don't hate it, but I don't think it's a big upgrade either.
00:35:46 ◼ ► But second, to figure out what it is that regular people hate so much about the Photos app. I have
00:35:53 ◼ ► some ideas, but anyway, Marco, before we get into what other people think, what do you personally
00:35:57 ◼ ► think about the iOS 18 Photos app, if anything? - I don't really use any of the new customizable,
00:36:05 ◼ ► swipey, exploring rows or anything. So I don't really have a strong opinion. I'm a kind of
00:36:11 ◼ ► Photos app light user. I skim through and I usually am looking at my most recent photos.
00:36:17 ◼ ► Occasionally I'll go back and say, "Oh, what was that thing I did last week? Let me pull up that
00:36:20 ◼ ► picture, my New Year's suit," or whatever. It's usually short timescale. I'm never going into the
00:36:26 ◼ ► Photos app and saying, "Make me a memory for last year." I love they have those features for people
00:36:30 ◼ ► who do that. I'm not one of those people. So all that stuff, it mostly just kind of gets in my way
00:36:35 ◼ ► if it's in the way. But I find for my very light use, it's fine. I don't think it's an improvement
00:36:47 ◼ ► most people dislike, and people in my life, my daughter refused to update iOS 18 for ages
00:36:53 ◼ ► because she had heard that the Photos app was bad. She hadn't even experienced it herself. But by the
00:36:57 ◼ ► time I even mentioned it to her already, and this is two days after it's released already, she'd
00:37:00 ◼ ► heard from her friend Circle, "Don't update iOS 18. The Photos app is bad." I think she's since
00:37:06 ◼ ► updated, and she still maintains that it's bad. She hasn't articulated specifically what it is
00:37:10 ◼ ► about it that she doesn't like it, but I have a few ideas. So first of all, one of the subgenres
00:37:14 ◼ ► you will find in the world of Instagram, TikTok, whatever, or in the teen circles or regular people
00:37:21 ◼ ► circles about, "Here's how you can fix photos on iOS 18 so it's not so bad." And what they're
00:37:27 ◼ ► basically telling you to do with a super secret hack is, "Did you know things are configurable?"
00:37:32 ◼ ► All right? So in iOS 18 Photos, you can configure... I forget where it is probably in settings. You
00:37:36 ◼ ► can configure lots of the stuff to remove things that you don't care about, to change the order
00:37:42 ◼ ► of things, to pin certain collections to the top. If the default setup is not to your liking and
00:37:48 ◼ ► it's showing you things you're not interested in, you can change that. So this is a super secret
00:37:52 ◼ ► hack that there's a million videos about telling you, "Here's how you can fix it," which makes me
00:37:56 ◼ ► think that one of the things about the iOS 18 Photos app that people don't like is they launch
00:38:04 ◼ ► but they just want to launch it to look at some photos they've taken. I think that's what most
00:38:07 ◼ ► people do with the Photos app is, "I took some photos. Let me look at them. Let me show them
00:38:12 ◼ ► to someone else. Let me open it up and grab that one photo." They just want to open the app and get
00:38:17 ◼ ► a photo that they're thinking of from today, from last week or whatever. That's what they're doing.
00:38:21 ◼ ► But the iOS 18 Photos app has other plans. It's like, "You know what? Here's a bunch of carousels
00:38:25 ◼ ► with memories and trips and whatever." And they're like, "What is all this? I just want to get my
00:38:29 ◼ ► photo." And the fact that the iOS 18 Photos app got rid of the bottom tab bar and replaced it with
00:38:34 ◼ ► this half of the screen is this other stuff that's not your photos. Yes, you can see a grid of your
00:38:39 ◼ ► photos, but also, have you considered albums and shared albums and media types and people and pets
00:38:45 ◼ ► and recent days and memories and all that stuff? They're like, "That's not what I want. Why is it
00:38:49 ◼ ► taking up half of my screen?" And then the UI is like, "Well, if you just scroll the grid of photos,
00:38:54 ◼ ► eventually we make that bottom thing disappear and it becomes a floating tab bar at the bottom.
00:39:00 ◼ ► So look, it's just like your old photos." This is one of the things they didn't beta was they said,
00:39:03 ◼ ► "Okay, we're not going to take up half your screen with the stuff that you don't care about.
00:39:06 ◼ ► If you just ignore it and scroll, then you just have a grid of icons like it used to be
00:39:11 ◼ ► and you have this tab bar with years, months, or whatever." But the fact that that big thing is
00:39:16 ◼ ► there annoys people. The fact that they have to scroll and it behaves unlike any other kind of
00:39:23 ◼ ► app. People are kind of used to an app where there's either a top bar and a bottom bar,
00:39:26 ◼ ► like a phone app, and there's a middle region that you scroll. And this whole thing of like, "Well,
00:39:30 ◼ ► the bottom half of the screen is a bunch of stuff and the top half of the screen is some other stuff."
00:39:34 ◼ ► And then if you scroll, the bottom half of the screen resists you, it's like, "I can't push it
00:39:40 ◼ ► down." But if you push down a little bit more, then it's like it surrenders and becomes a floating
00:39:44 ◼ ► toolbar. That's not a paradigm that exists, like is common idiom in the iPhone world. It's something
00:39:51 ◼ ► that Apple made up for iOS, the 18 photos. It's not familiar to people. It's weird that the app
00:39:57 ◼ ► resists you hiding that bottom part. Like you push down, it doesn't go away. You have to push
00:40:03 ◼ ► down a second time. Like try it, go ahead, open up photos now and see the whole bottom white section
00:40:07 ◼ ► below your grid of icons? Push it down with your thumb in a single motion. No matter how far you
00:40:11 ◼ ► push in that single swipe, it will never go away. Like push, push, push, push, push. Your thumb will
00:40:15 ◼ ► go off the end of the phone and it will never go away. Ah, but push a second time and now it
00:40:20 ◼ ► disappears. And so like it's fighting you, right? So I think a whole bunch of the resentments about
00:40:25 ◼ ► iOS 18 photos is there's this white bottom section that is not my photos that I don't want to see
00:40:32 ◼ ► that fights me every time I try to get rid of it. So I think there's a lesson in that for Apple.
00:40:37 ◼ ► And then the second thing of course is what's in that white section? A whole bunch of crap. And the
00:40:41 ◼ ► fact that you can configure it is one of the figures I actually like about the new photos.
00:40:48 ◼ ► Which by the way, just very quickly to interrupt the real time follow up on that is if you scroll
00:40:52 ◼ ► all the way down, scroll, scroll, scroll all the way down, there's a customized reorder button,
00:40:55 ◼ ► which is what lets you do the, you know, what do you want and what order do you want it in
00:41:00 ◼ ► on this bottom section? Yeah, that's a super secret tip that you can learn from all these
00:41:04 ◼ ► TikTok. Anyway, the, like the, with the feedback said about the recent item, most people will never
00:41:08 ◼ ► change the defaults. Like they won't even discover that or whatever. That's why this is a super cool
00:41:12 ◼ ► tip. Obviously anyone listening to the show probably knows that's there and they've already
00:41:18 ◼ ► if I have to endure this white bottom section in the photo screen, at least I'll put the stuff
00:41:23 ◼ ► that I care about on the top and delete the stuff that I don't care about. But that's why I say for
00:41:29 ◼ ► me personally, the iOS 18 photos app, it hasn't, it's not better than the previous one because I'm
00:41:36 ◼ ► like most people going in there just to find photos. The thing I wish my personal wish for
00:41:40 ◼ ► the photos app is first of all, I would get rid of that whole like, Hey, you can't get rid of this
00:41:44 ◼ ► bottom part until you try a second time. Ask me a second time. And then I'll turn into a toolbar.
00:41:47 ◼ ► Like there's nothing wrong with just having a tool bar, just have a tool bar, right? I would love it
00:41:51 ◼ ► if that toolbar is customizable because the main, my main complaint with dealing with photos on my
00:41:56 ◼ ► phone is whenever I'm doing anything with photos, if I am picking photos, like in a photo picker,
00:42:02 ◼ ► like the whatever, the system photo picker, when you're in some other app and it says here,
00:42:05 ◼ ► pick a photo to put here. If I'm picking a photo or if I'm trying to file a photo away,
00:42:09 ◼ ► like put this photo into an album in both of those cases, I am always, almost always pulling from,
00:42:17 ◼ ► or putting into like three albums and in the little white region thing, you can pin them.
00:42:22 ◼ ► So I have pin collections, favorites, recently saved destiny, profile photos, contact photos,
00:42:27 ◼ ► and memes. Those are the ones that I use most frequently. That's where I'm pulling from or
00:42:31 ◼ ► putting into. And that's great for pin collections on the screen, but in the system photo picker,
00:42:35 ◼ ► it's like, here's all your albums, have fun scrolling through them. It's like 500 albums
00:42:40 ◼ ► and they're alphabetical sort of, and there's some at the top if you've used recently. And it's just
00:42:43 ◼ ► like, I wish you could just say, look, these five just always have them be in the top, like kind of
00:42:48 ◼ ► like the, you know, open, save dialog box before you expand everything. It's like, just you always
00:42:52 ◼ ► pick from these, these ones, just these, these will always be at the top. You will never have
00:42:56 ◼ ► to scroll through the list of albums looking for memes or looking for the M section, trying to
00:43:00 ◼ ► remember where the icons, where is my destiny folder, scroll, scroll, scroll D's, I don't pass
00:43:03 ◼ ► the D's, scroll back, just always put them at the top. Photos and iOS 18 does not give me that
00:43:08 ◼ ► experience. I still frequently in other apps find myself scrolling through my gigantic list of
00:43:12 ◼ ► albums, trying to find the destiny album because it's somewhere in the D's and I scroll past it
00:43:16 ◼ ► and it annoys me. So it's not enough. That was same before and it's the same after. So it's not
00:43:20 ◼ ► a change. I do like having pin collections, but I hate the fact that the little white region,
00:43:29 ◼ ► nuances of user interface. They're just like, somebody moved my stuff. I used to know where
00:43:35 ◼ ► things were in the photos app. And now I don't, the tab bar that was at the bottom, isn't there
00:43:38 ◼ ► anymore. This is other thing that I don't understand that turns into a tab bar. Even things
00:43:43 ◼ ► like, I mean, they changed this in the beta. How do I change from showing my personal library or
00:43:47 ◼ ► the shared library? That's a more esoteric feature, but they have that buried before too,
00:43:51 ◼ ► when they fix it in the beta. Still, do you two know where it is? It's pretty well hidden.
00:43:55 ◼ ► If you don't know where to find that you have to get to it. You have to push the white bottom
00:44:01 ◼ ► region away because you don't want that anymore. So one push, no, you didn't make it right. Second
00:44:13 ◼ ► and what does that mean? Like sorting or something. Then you can pick personal library,
00:44:16 ◼ ► shared library, or both libraries. And it used to be in the upper right and now it's in the lower
00:44:20 ◼ ► left. So anyway, everything is moved. And I think the app is fighting people from the main thing
00:44:26 ◼ ► that they want to do, which is just show me all my photos. Now it could help people there. I think
00:44:31 ◼ ► it's trying to say, you have too many photos. If we show you all your photos and never be able to
00:44:35 ◼ ► find anything. What if we put them into a grid where everything, whether we just pick like the
00:44:39 ◼ ► ones that we think are important photos, instead of showing you them all like the grid where they're
00:44:43 ◼ ► all different sizes and stuff. What if we do that? What if we show you collections with what we think
00:44:46 ◼ ► are the good photos and people are like, just get that out of my face. Just the people just want to
00:44:50 ◼ ► scroll their photos, scroll, scroll, scroll. Maybe they want to go to months and years,
00:44:54 ◼ ► and that should still be there, but they just want to do that. Everything else in the app is getting
00:44:57 ◼ ► in their way. And it kind of amazes me that the backlash about iOS 18 is essentially you change
00:45:05 ◼ ► the interface to the photos app. It's not like my photos are gone or there's something worse about
00:45:11 ◼ ► the photos. It's just like when I go to find my photos, I'm now frustrated with my phone. I do
00:45:15 ◼ ► wonder if by the time iOS 20 comes along and they change it again, people are going to be like,
00:45:20 ◼ ► why did they change it? The photos app was fine. They didn't need to change it. Like a new generation
00:45:23 ◼ ► of people get used to the iOS 18 photos and they change it again and it annoys them. But really,
00:45:28 ◼ ► I was really surprised by the backlash against this, the continuing backlash against this,
00:45:33 ◼ ► because it's not like a high profile thing. It's not like controversial or salacious or whatever.
00:45:38 ◼ ► It is just like you change my user interface and it shows how much people treat their phones like
00:45:43 ◼ ► cameras because the things that people use all the time are the messages app and I guess also
00:45:48 ◼ ► the photos app. They take pictures with their phone, they go and look at them, they send them
00:45:51 ◼ ► to people in messages and any change to that app is a problem. So I find this fascinating. And I
00:45:58 ◼ ► think iOS 18 photos, I don't give it a failing grade because I don't think it got much worse
00:46:05 ◼ ► than before. It does some things better to some things worse. I'm going to say it's a wash,
00:46:09 ◼ ► but it is an example of like if you're going to change, fundamentally change how a heavily
00:46:15 ◼ ► used app on iOS works, it better be either way better or it better look and work like the old
00:46:22 ◼ ► one unless you do something. An example would be the messages app when they added the pin things
00:46:25 ◼ ► to the top. If you didn't pin anything, it just looked like the old messages app. And if you did
00:46:30 ◼ ► pin things like I did and you wanted to pin them, it is an improvement. So I think messages app has
00:46:36 ◼ ► improved over time getting more capabilities, but also not ruining it for everybody else. But
00:46:40 ◼ ► iOS 18 photos not doing well. Again, Apple would hope that they would never hear the word iOS 18
00:46:47 ◼ ► on TikTok, but they will. I should have put this in the regular show because we're gonna get feedback
00:46:53 ◼ ► about it. I don't know if you two tried it. And the iOS 18 photos app, that thing where you can't
00:46:58 ◼ ► push the white area down on the first try only happens if after you launch the app, you swipe up
00:47:05 ◼ ► by two millimeters before you swipe down. If you launch it, don't touch the screen at all and
00:47:08 ◼ ► immediately swipe down. You can do it in a single swipe, but if you launch the app, like force quit,
00:47:12 ◼ ► launch the app, pull up two millimeters, let release the screen and then try to pull down.
00:47:18 ◼ ► It will fight you. And we're gonna get feedback about that, but that's my own fault for waiting
00:47:21 ◼ ► too long. I thought you were crazy, but I figured I was just misunderstanding what you were trying
00:47:25 ◼ ► to say. Try what I said now. Say that one more time. So, okay, I've just force quit. I've launched
00:47:30 ◼ ► the app. Scroll, push your finger upward on the screen for two seconds, lift it off. So you see
00:47:35 ◼ ► more of the white area. Now put your finger on the screen and try to push down. You will not be able
00:47:39 ◼ ► to do it in a single swipe. I see. Yep. You're right. No, you're right. But that is not,
00:47:42 ◼ ► I was listening, but that is not what I got from what you were saying earlier. I thought I did it
00:47:47 ◼ ► all the time because I guess when like, if you have the app like running and you're looking at
00:47:50 ◼ ► that white area, I was just like filling around with it. If you've, if you mess with the white
00:47:54 ◼ ► area at all, you're in that mode. But if on a fresh launch before you've done that, if the
00:47:58 ◼ ► first thing you do is swipe down, you can do it in a single swipe. So now we have to endure a week
00:48:02 ◼ ► of that feedback. Thanks, Jon. All right. We have a handful of rumors from Mark Gurman, of course,
00:48:12 ◼ ► and they all kind of interrelate a little bit, but we'll start with Apple's new chip for Wi-Fi and
00:48:18 ◼ ► Bluetooth. Mark writes code named Proxima will replace some components currently supplied by
00:48:23 ◼ ► Broadcom Inc. This wireless chip will launch in some products next year, including this,
00:48:28 ◼ ► I guess that means 2025, including a new Apple TV HomePod mini and the iPhone 17. The component will
00:48:33 ◼ ► then come to other products during 2026. And this is interesting. This is not surprising,
00:48:40 ◼ ► but this is not the cellular modem chip that they've been fighting against for years now,
00:48:45 ◼ ► right? This is something different. Yeah. The cellular modem chip is also coming. And we've
00:48:52 ◼ ► is a little bit different. So one interesting aspect is how much of both of those things can
00:49:04 ◼ ► Bluetooth or cell modem stuff into the SOC? Can you put some of it on die most of the time for
00:49:09 ◼ ► radio frequency reasons or whatever you can't, but could it be in the same package? Like basically,
00:49:13 ◼ ► can you get lower power and smaller footprint by Apple doing this themselves because they can
00:49:18 ◼ ► build into the package? That's a separate question. I'm putting it aside for now. The reason I'm
00:49:23 ◼ ► interested in this particular thing is like Wi-Fi and Bluetooth. Like no one's super excited about
00:49:27 ◼ ► the chips for that. Like you just want it to work or whatever, but Apple doing it themselves,
00:49:33 ◼ ► maybe they save money. You don't have to pay Broadcom for those chips because they have
00:49:39 ◼ ► their own profit margins. So if you do it yourself, you get them cheaper. You can make exactly the
00:49:43 ◼ ► Wi-Fi and Bluetooth chip that you need for your devices that only has the features that you need.
00:49:47 ◼ ► And cons to that already, Apple doesn't put the latest and greatest Wi-Fi standard in all
00:49:51 ◼ ► their devices. I think the phones have Wi-Fi 7, but the Macs don't, for example, right?
00:49:55 ◼ ► If I'm getting that right. And Apple tends to not be a super early adopter and all these things,
00:50:05 ◼ ► we talked just talking about software, but this is a hardware thing. When Apple decides
00:50:16 ◼ ► and do it themselves, how do we feel about that in terms of, are we excited and optimistic about it?
00:50:25 ◼ ► Are we fearful? Because I think that's changed over the years. And especially with hardware,
00:50:32 ◼ ► it's a tough call. I think I was talking about something on Macedon with somebody and they were
00:50:36 ◼ ► like, "Apple's never going to do XYZ because they get all their stuff from this other third party
00:50:43 ◼ ► manufacturer and they're the best." And one of the things I replied was, "Well, Apple used to buy its
00:50:53 ◼ ► Right. But sometimes when Apple decides to do a hardware thing itself, it knocks it out of the
00:50:57 ◼ ► park. Apple Silicon, home run, right? They decided we're going to do the chips ourselves for our
00:51:04 ◼ ► phones, for iPads, and eventually for our Macs. Previously, the phone did not use an Apple chip.
00:51:10 ◼ ► And I think maybe the first iPad probably had Apple Silicon. I forget. What was the first iPad?
00:51:15 ◼ ► All right. Anyway, they used to buy the chips from other people for all their products and they
00:51:21 ◼ ► slowly but surely said, "No, we're going to do that in-house." And they just destroyed it. Amazing
00:51:26 ◼ ► job. So you would think that any time you hear, "Apple's going to stop buying some piece of
00:51:31 ◼ ► hardware, some hardware component from a third party, and they're going to do it themselves,"
00:51:34 ◼ ► you'd be like, "You're an Apple fan. You must be excited about that because Apple's so good
00:51:37 ◼ ► at hardware." And yet, if I would heard, for example, Apple is going to start making its own...
00:51:45 ◼ ► Well, I was going to say SSDs, but that's a complicated issue. We're discussing the best
00:51:49 ◼ ► shows. But for this one, they're going to make their own cellular modem. They're going to make
00:51:52 ◼ ► their own Wi-Fi and Bluetooth chips. My first thought is, "I don't know if I'm optimistic
00:52:01 ◼ ► about that because unlike the CPU and stuff where there's lots of room for innovation and excitement,
00:52:07 ◼ ► you basically just want Wi-Fi and Bluetooth to work and work with the latest standards."
00:52:10 ◼ ► And I worry that the potential for harm is high and the potential for good is low. Because even
00:52:19 ◼ ► if they knock this one out of the park, they saved a few watts of energy and they saved a little bit
00:52:26 ◼ ► of space in their phones. But if they do anything wrong, oh, that's the iPhone 17, that's the one
00:52:34 ◼ ► that can't do Wi-Fi right. That's the one that has even more Bluetooth problems than usual.
00:52:38 ◼ ► The cell modem, they did use Intel cell modems instead of Qualcomm for a while. And it was like,
00:52:43 ◼ ► "Did you get the iPhone with the Intel modem or did yours come with the Qualcomm modem?" Because
00:52:47 ◼ ► the Qualcomm ones were better. That wasn't even Apple. That was just two third parties. And
00:52:51 ◼ ► everybody knew in the nerd circle, you want the one with the Qualcomm modem because it's better
00:52:55 ◼ ► than the one with the Intel modem. And then Apple bought that Intel modem business and is
00:52:59 ◼ ► trying to build that to do their own thing. So I'm looking at this Wi-Fi and Bluetooth chip and I'm
00:53:03 ◼ ► like, "It could be okay, I guess. I see the potential upsides." It's not like they're going
00:53:08 ◼ ► to pass the savings on to us. So don't forget about that. It's just going to increase their
00:53:11 ◼ ► margins. It could be a little bit smaller and lower power. But the downside is that Broadcom
00:53:17 ◼ ► has been making Wi-Fi and Bluetooth chips forever. They're probably really good at it. And the bottom
00:53:23 ◼ ► line is their chips work with everything because everyone knows that Broadcom chips are in
00:53:27 ◼ ► everything. And so if you use a Broadcom Wi-Fi and Bluetooth chip, it's going to work with all
00:53:30 ◼ ► the Blythe, you know what I mean? Whereas Apple does their own thing, there's a potential
00:53:34 ◼ ► interoperability issue there. So I am really nervous about the Wi-Fi and Bluetooth chip.
00:53:42 ◼ ► The cell modem, they said that we're going to debut in the iPhone SE or whatever. They're going
00:53:46 ◼ ► to roll it out and not the flagship products in case it's a disaster, which makes sense to me.
00:53:51 ◼ ► But the fact that they're mentioning this one with the iPhone 17 would have this chip in it,
00:54:02 ◼ ► it better be perfect. It better be perfect or better than the Broadcom chips. And I'm not sure
00:54:07 ◼ ► this one will. How do you guys feel about the prospect of Apple doing this? I think it's changed
00:54:12 ◼ ► over time. We were all there for the bad iPhone 7 with the Intel modem instead of the Qualcomm modem.
00:54:20 ◼ ► We were there for that. I had the bad one. I had the Intel one because it was most of the,
00:54:24 ◼ ► most or all, I think, of the AT&T iPhone 7s. And so we see how this can go wrong. We don't want
00:54:32 ◼ ► there to be a bad one. And we don't want the Apple version of something that is as basic and required
00:54:41 ◼ ► and taken for granted as Wi-Fi or Bluetooth. We don't want that to be bad or buggy. Already today,
00:54:49 ◼ ► I hit a lot of Bluetooth bugs with my iPhone. Now, I don't know whose fault that is. I don't
00:54:55 ◼ ► know if it's hardware or software. It's part of the Bluetooth spec, I believe. There's a special
00:54:59 ◼ ► section of the spec that says, "On flaky problems that customers will never be able to solve." It
00:55:03 ◼ ► tells you what you have to implement. Right. So I don't know if that's the Bluetooth chip,
00:55:09 ◼ ► if it's the iOS software, if it's the stuff between the two. I don't know. On one hand,
00:55:16 ◼ ► you can say, "Well, maybe Apple taking it in-house would give them more control over the process."
00:55:24 ◼ ► And maybe that would allow them to build a more reliable one. On the other hand, you can look at
00:55:30 ◼ ► that and say, "Apple can't even get the software right for someone else's Bluetooth chip. How are
00:55:33 ◼ ► they going to get the software right for their own?" So it can go both ways. But when you look
00:55:38 ◼ ► at Apple's recent efforts, the iPhone 7 was, what, over a decade ago? It was a while ago.
00:55:44 ◼ ► When you look at their recent efforts, their silicon is solid. When they transitioned the Mac
00:56:02 ◼ ► Most people would say, "No. That sounds like a terrible idea. Why would I buy the very first
00:56:07 ◼ ► version of them doing this massive change? It's going to have problems. It's going to be
00:56:11 ◼ ► unreliable. It's going to be buggy." Well, what happened? They switched the entire Mac over to
00:56:16 ◼ ► their own chips, and I was there, and I had the very first one, and it was solid. I don't think
00:56:24 ◼ ► there were any major problems. There were certainly fewer problems than the outbound mature
00:56:28 ◼ ► Intel ones. So they knocked that one out of the park. So I think their current standards and their
00:56:38 ◼ ► recent performance in areas like this, in terms of the Apple Silicon transition, shows a pretty good
00:56:44 ◼ ► track record. Well, you're forgetting their most recent effort in this area because it hasn't
00:56:49 ◼ ► shipped. Their most recent effort is their many years-long effort to make their own cell modems.
00:56:54 ◼ ► They bought Intel's cell modem business, the business that made the cell modem that nobody
00:56:58 ◼ ► wanted on the iPhone 7. They bought that business, and they had plans to make their own cellular chip
00:57:02 ◼ ► that they're going to put in their phones, and they are behind schedule, and presumably that means
00:57:08 ◼ ► because they're not able to do it well. And even though that hasn't shipped, it's unfair to judge
00:57:14 ◼ ► them on that. Like, "Well, when they ship it, it'll be good." But this is very relevant to Wi-Fi and
00:57:18 ◼ ► Bluetooth. It's like they have been trying for years and years to do something very similar,
00:57:23 ◼ ► and they've essentially been internally failing, not shipping what they had, aiming to get a cell
00:57:29 ◼ ► modem with these standards. "Oh, now we can't do it, so now the target is moved. Now we need to
00:57:32 ◼ ► make sure we have 5G, but we're not going to be able to do a millimeter wave," because they're
00:57:36 ◼ ► having trouble with it. Maybe we don't see this internally. Maybe they were working on Apple
00:57:41 ◼ ► Silicon for the max for years and years and kept delaying it or whatever because it was more secret,
00:57:44 ◼ ► but the fact they're doing the cell modem is not secret. Everybody knows they've been doing it,
00:57:54 ◼ ► that's good in that they're not shipping something bad. They're like, "We're going to keep buying
00:57:59 ◼ ► this." They renewed their contract with Qualcomm for several more years just to say, "Look,
00:58:05 ◼ ► we need to cover our bases. We're obviously not ready with our cell modem. Qualcomm still makes
00:58:09 ◼ ► the best one even though we hate each other and have sued each other. Let's sign a deal
00:58:12 ◼ ► and say, 'Okay, we'll keep buying stuff from Qualcomm.'" But everybody knows Apple wants to
00:58:18 ◼ ► stop doing business with Qualcomm. They just can't. They've been failing to get out of that
00:58:21 ◼ ► relationship because their own efforts have been not going well. So that gives me a lot of pause
00:58:27 ◼ ► here. So yes, part of their recent experience is the Mac transition, and they've done that
00:58:36 ◼ ► and they've just done amazingly every time. So they have lots of institutional experience. But
00:58:40 ◼ ► their institutional experience swapping out wireless communication chips I think is far
00:58:50 ◼ ► spottier, and the little information we do have is that they're having trouble. So that is another
00:58:56 ◼ ► reason I'm feeling nervous about it. Well, I think you can frame it two different ways.
00:59:00 ◼ ► Is it that they can't do this well enough yet or that they haven't done this well enough yet?
00:59:08 ◼ ► Look, Apple knows the iPhone is the show. They know. And you can look at how many iPhones have
00:59:17 ◼ ► there been. It's a pretty high number, especially when you include all the non-flagship models.
00:59:23 ◼ ► When you include all the different sub-models and two different sizes of everything a lot of times,
00:59:28 ◼ ► there have been a lot of iPhones. How many of them have had significant hardware flaws?
00:59:34 ◼ ► It's a very short list, and they haven't been that significant. They know how to make really
00:59:41 ◼ ► reliable iPhones. They have shown an incredible... Like, when you consider how complicated iPhones
00:59:47 ◼ ► are, the scale that they are produced, it's remarkable how few hardware problems iPhones
00:59:55 ◼ ► have had. One of them was specifically from the cell modem when they did the Intel one,
00:59:59 ◼ ► and they shipped that. But even that, I still used that phone for a year, and it was still
01:00:03 ◼ ► mostly fine. That wasn't that big of a... They have had little minor things. Yeah, the Intel
01:00:09 ◼ ► cell modem in the iPhone 7 wasn't that good. Yeah, they had the slightly more bendable than usual
01:00:15 ◼ ► iPhone 6 series. There were a couple... The antenna gate forever ago, which was also a minor issue.
01:00:20 ◼ ► They're pretty good at making sure they're not going to ship something really bad, but part of
01:00:25 ◼ ► my nervousness about this is I don't want them to do it and just have it be pretty much the same,
01:00:31 ◼ ► maybe with a few problems. As a consumer, that doesn't benefit me at all. It gives Apple a few
01:00:36 ◼ ► more cents per iPhone, but I don't care. Again, they're not passing that savings on to me.
01:00:39 ◼ ► When I'm looking at this with little side-eye, it's like, "Why are you doing this? What's the
01:00:44 ◼ ► upside versus the potential downside?" The upside seemed like they're all for Apple, and the downside
01:00:48 ◼ ► seemed like they're all... We're exposed to them. I agree with you that they're not like... With the
01:00:53 ◼ ► cell modem that they haven't shipped. If anything that goes into the phone, especially like the
01:00:57 ◼ ► flagship iPhone, they're going to make sure it is at least okay. They're not going to ship something
01:01:01 ◼ ► terrible, we hope, which is why they've not been able to ship anything. But they are doing things
01:01:07 ◼ ► like the rumors for the cell modem of like, "They're going to make one without millimeter
01:01:14 ◼ ► Why would I be excited about a cost savings for Apple that exposes the need to potential risk,
01:01:21 ◼ ► and that they're not even willing to do on their flagship phone because they haven't been able to
01:01:24 ◼ ► do that? With WiFi and Bluetooth, I'm still kind of neutral on that. What's the upside?
01:01:27 ◼ ► One of the things I fear is that it's not going to make it more likely that the Macs have the latest
01:01:34 ◼ ► WiFi standard than the current one. Because, again, someone can confirm this, but I believe
01:01:38 ◼ ► the M4 Macs don't have WiFi 7, but the phones do. If Apple made its own chips, would that make it
01:01:46 ◼ ► a higher chance that when WiFi 8 comes out that it's across all the lines? I don't think it does.
01:01:50 ◼ ► I don't think it increases anything. I'm looking for the silver lining. I'm looking for like,
01:01:54 ◼ ► "What is the upside for me as the consumer?" And I don't see it, and I just see some minor risks.
01:02:00 ◼ ► And I agree with you that the risk of the phone is probably low, but other devices mentioned in
01:02:04 ◼ ► this room are Apple TV HomePod Mini. I don't want my Apple TV to have crappy Bluetooth.
01:02:12 ◼ ► I put this in here because it's notable to myself that I'm not enthused about the potential for
01:02:22 ◼ ► Apple taping over a piece of hardware when, in some respects, I should be because of Apple
01:02:27 ◼ ► Silicon and their recent advances, but when it comes to this specific subgenre, I'm a little iffy.
01:02:33 ◼ ► First of all, there will probably be certain upsides in just things like power efficiency,
01:02:40 ◼ ► small size. So we will see probably some minor advances there. WiFi chips and cell modems are
01:02:48 ◼ ► big. They take up space on the board. If they can make their own and/or integrate it into the
01:02:53 ◼ ► package of the SoC, which I think is more likely, or at least integrate parts of it into that.
01:02:57 ◼ ► Or they can use their TSMC deal to fab it at the good fab size because most of these wireless chips
01:03:03 ◼ ► are fabbed at two-generation old things to be cheaper or whatever. Apple can spend a little
01:03:07 ◼ ► bit more because of their massive deals with TSMC. Right, and given the amount of power,
01:03:11 ◼ ► especially a cell chip uses, that could be substantial savings there. But there's obviously
01:03:17 ◼ ► the physical benefits. If they could integrate it in, put it in package, or at least make it on
01:03:22 ◼ ► their process, yes, there's lots of advantages they could potentially do there. But even if you
01:03:27 ◼ ► think about it too, Apple does a lot of their own custom bolting on of functionality onto existing
01:03:34 ◼ ► open standards like WiFi and Bluetooth. Look at how AirPods pair and work. Look at all the WiFi
01:03:40 ◼ ► stuff they do for peer-to-peer WiFi networks that are temporarily made for things like AirDrop and
01:03:45 ◼ ► stuff like that. There's all sorts of features that Apple builds on top of these standards.
01:03:49 ◼ ► Well, if they controlled the hardware, I bet they could do more and better features like that. Now,
01:03:55 ◼ ► that's kind of a double-edged sword. You know, because you think about, well, is it a good thing
01:04:01 ◼ ► for Apple to have even more proprietary protocols and standards that can even maybe go with the
01:04:07 ◼ ► hardware and radio level? - Don't worry, the EU will make them open up to all third-party developers,
01:04:11 ◼ ► so it'll be fine. - Well, yeah, I'm sure that'll be fine with everybody. So, you know, it could be
01:04:17 ◼ ► a double-edged sword in the sense that they could use it for further extents of lock-in and unfair
01:04:24 ◼ ► competition. So, you know, there will be downsides to this path if they go on it. - Although you're
01:04:30 ◼ ► mentioning like optimistic, like, oh, here's a problem that I currently have and they might be
01:04:33 ◼ ► able to solve it. And like, I see where you're going with that, especially like the H1 chip.
01:04:36 ◼ ► Like, in general, I would say that the AirPods connecting is better than Bluetooth pairing,
01:04:41 ◼ ► like, because Apple added their proprietary thing instead. And I have the same problem,
01:04:46 ◼ ► one of the problems you're describing is like, I try to do AirDrop. I'm in a room with like,
01:04:49 ◼ ► I've got my phone in my hand, I've got a computer in front of me, I got a computer over there,
01:05:05 ◼ ► everyone's in our contacts, I'm doing it among family members. I've even done it in the situation
01:05:09 ◼ ► where I've logged into my account on that computer and I'm on my same Apple ID on my phone,
01:05:13 ◼ ► I'm trying to AirDrop it to the computer I'm sitting in front of, and it just doesn't see it.
01:05:16 ◼ ► It sees the other computer across the room, but not that one. And all sorts of like AirDrop issues
01:05:20 ◼ ► that aren't solved by like banging the phones together with the iOS 18 thing or whatever.
01:05:29 ◼ ► You're thinking like, oh, stuff like AirDrop, they could make that better. I'm thinking,
01:05:34 ◼ ► is that a software issue or is that a hardware issue? Like you can pin a lot of dreams on like,
01:05:38 ◼ ► well, if Apple made the Wi-Fi chip, I wouldn't have that AirDrop problem. But I'm thinking that
01:05:46 ◼ ► hard to know where the blame lies, but like when there's new hardware, the optimistic take is any
01:05:51 ◼ ► problem I'm currently having that involves that hardware could be improved because Apple will have
01:05:55 ◼ ► complete control over it. And I kind of feel, especially when there's software in the mix,
01:06:02 ◼ ► I mean, you're right. Like obviously in most cases, that is kind of a blend of hardware and
01:06:07 ◼ ► software. And those lines are very squishy these days with a lot of these very complex protocols.
01:06:18 ◼ ► keyboard era Apple. And that's not the Apple we have anymore, thank God. Modern Apple, I think,
01:06:24 ◼ ► is showing like they really don't ship bad hardware anymore. They used to ship a decent
01:06:38 ◼ ► They really do not have major hardware problems that ship to customers, and especially in the
01:06:43 ◼ ► iPhone. So I think I am optimistic that probably the reason we haven't seen these things yet,
01:06:50 ◼ ► we'll occasionally see a report that, oh, the cell modem is delayed. I think part of the reason
01:06:53 ◼ ► we haven't seen them yet is because Apple is probably holding them to very, very high standards
01:06:59 ◼ ► and won't release them until they know they're solid. So I'm pretty optimistic. I think this
01:07:05 ◼ ► will go well if and when it ever happens. And I think if it doesn't happen or doesn't happen yet,
01:07:11 ◼ ► it's probably for those reasons. It's probably that they just haven't reached the bar that Apple
01:07:16 ◼ ► knows they need to reach to be good enough to ship in their flagship products. And so I actually
01:07:20 ◼ ► think this, because like if you think too, like how else could this benefit us? Well, how else could
01:07:25 ◼ ► it benefit us if cell modems get smaller and/or more efficient or cheaper for Apple? Huh, maybe
01:07:33 ◼ ► the Mac will finally get cell modems. Stop teasing me. Stop teasing me. That's part of the rumor,
01:07:38 ◼ ► and it's not about cost. It's just about like that Apple will finally do it because part of them
01:07:42 ◼ ► making their own hardware is like, well, let's make it so it works in all our products. And now
01:07:46 ◼ ► Apple will use it as an excuse to be like, we couldn't put cellular in our Macs because
01:07:50 ◼ ► reason's X, Y, but now that we make our own chip, we totally can. It's like, you could have before,
01:07:53 ◼ ► too. But anyway, whatever it takes. Yeah, whatever reasons they give, who cares? We just want it
01:07:57 ◼ ► there. All right. I agree with that, but we're talking about the Wi-Fi and Bluetooth chip,
01:08:01 ◼ ► and they already have Wi-Fi and Bluetooth. Yeah, the cell modem chip, if it actually ships,
01:08:05 ◼ ► and it makes them put it into Mac, I will count that as a huge win. And if it doesn't hose the
01:08:09 ◼ ► iPhone, that's good, too. But Wi-Fi and Bluetooth, Macs already have that. I'm a little nervous.
01:08:13 ◼ ► Well, and what about the Apple Watch? The Apple Watch has optional cellular. All of them have
01:08:20 ◼ ► Wi-Fi and Bluetooth. It is a very tight power situation in the Apple Watch. If you can make
01:08:26 ◼ ► those chips, and it's also a tight space situation, if you can make Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, and cellular
01:08:32 ◼ ► smaller and more power efficient, the Apple Watch will benefit substantially from that,
01:08:44 ◼ ► not only can the Watch possibly get slimmer, lighter, whatever, bigger battery, whatever.
01:08:48 ◼ ► Also, maybe if they can make bigger strides in those areas, maybe the Watch can start using its
01:08:54 ◼ ► networking more. Oh my god, what a concept! Maybe our apps wouldn't be incredibly aggressively
01:09:01 ◼ ► throttled with every single thing they try to do on the Watch. Maybe the cell connection on the
01:09:05 ◼ ► Watch could get reliable, because it wouldn't constantly put itself to sleep. Or it could all
01:09:09 ◼ ► just get so much flakier. No, trust me, the cell connection on the Watch cannot be flakier than
01:09:13 ◼ ► it already is. But maybe the Watch can start using Wi-Fi for more data transfer instead of relying on
01:09:19 ◼ ► slow Bluetooth for as much as possible. Maybe the Watch can do more frequent updates. Definitely
01:09:24 ◼ ► more upsides for the Watch. Yeah, so you can see there's very clear opportunities for if they can
01:09:30 ◼ ► make Bluetooth, Wi-Fi, and cellular smaller and more power efficient and cheaper to them,
01:09:35 ◼ ► that does benefit us in a lot of potential ways. So I'm rooting for this, and I am confident at the
01:09:42 ◼ ► moment that their hardware standards are so high, especially because these things would be going in
01:09:48 ◼ ► the iPhone. And the iPhone standards are so high that I think they're not going to do it until and
01:09:55 ◼ ► unless it's solid. Yeah, I think that's really the key is if it ends up in the iPhone, then I'm
01:10:01 ◼ ► confident. Anywhere else? Maybe? Yeah, like if they put it like only in the Mac, I might be a little bit worried.
01:10:08 ◼ ► Only in the Apple TV. Yeah, only in the HomePod. That's the worst. I mean, that's... Yeah, well, speaking
01:10:14 ◼ ► of your confidence in Apple making hardware, this next item will test your faith. Oh no. Well, so
01:10:20 ◼ ► Mark Gurman writes that Apple's Magic Mouse, which was introduced more than 15 years ago, one five,
01:10:27 ◼ ► 15 years ago, well, they've made some tweaks to it, but only minor ones. It moved from AA batteries
01:10:32 ◼ ► to a rechargeable system, swapped in a lighter case with a smoother glide, and just a month or
01:10:38 ◼ ► two ago switched from a lightning connector to a USB-C port. The good news is there's a new Magic
01:10:43 ◼ ► Mouse in the works. Hooray! I'm told that Apple's design team has been prototyping versions of the
01:10:48 ◼ ► accessory in recent months, aiming to devise something that better fits the modern era. Apple's
01:10:52 ◼ ► looking to create something that's more relevant while also fixing long-standing complaints. Yes,
01:10:56 ◼ ► including the charge and import issue. As for when the mouse will arrive, I wouldn't expect anything
01:11:00 ◼ ► in the next 12 to 18 months. Are you kidding me? What are you doing? It's been 15 years. What's another year or
01:11:07 ◼ ► two? What are you doing, Apple? Here's what I can tell you exactly what they're doing. Do you remember
01:11:12 ◼ ► when the butterfly keyboard finally died? About a year before, a year and a half before that,
01:11:19 ◼ ► there was some rumor that, like, Bono personally called Tim Cook and complained about it,
01:11:25 ◼ ► and then it happened. I do remember that now. You know what I think happened here? The MKBHD question.
01:11:31 ◼ ► Yes, I think, I honestly think that MKBHD asking Tim Cook about the Magic Mouse, I think Tim Cook
01:11:38 ◼ ► went back after that and told somebody, "Hey, fix this." And said, "Did we make a mouse?" Yeah, because
01:11:43 ◼ ► I honestly, I bet that's what happened, because like 12 to 18 months, that's how long it takes to make
01:11:49 ◼ ► a new mouse, like for a new, for Apple, you know, that's how long it takes. So I guarantee you it was
01:11:53 ◼ ► the MKBHD question that, and Tim Cook went to somebody and just said, "Yeah, take care of this," like,
01:11:59 ◼ ► and before that he never thought about it at all. We'll try to find that interview. I think it was
01:12:02 ◼ ► at W3C, but just to be clear, I think he just asked something like, "What do you think of the Magic
01:12:08 ◼ ► Mouse?" or whatever. He didn't say anything bad about it. He didn't say, "Well, it was pointed."
01:12:12 ◼ ► Yeah, Tim Cook, the Magic Mouse sucks. Why? He didn't say it. It wasn't like a, like, it was just merely
01:12:17 ◼ ► like, it was using this example of a product that maybe people don't care about too much, like,
01:12:21 ◼ ► how much do you really think about the Magic Mouse? It's just kind of like an aside, an ulcer in it,
01:12:26 ◼ ► and if I was, you know, if it was not Tim Cook, but if I was in Tim Cook's position, but not Tim Cook,
01:12:30 ◼ ► you can usually say, "Of all the products we make, the Magic Mouse is not one of the most important,
01:12:35 ◼ ► like, it's low on the list, right? It's good that we make it, find whatever, but obviously,
01:12:40 ◼ ► you know, with the iPhone at the top, you gotta go way down that list before you get to the Magic
01:12:43 ◼ ► Mouse, right?" That's the reality. Like, that's why it's been around for 15 years. Nobody really
01:12:47 ◼ ► cares. It's not a big deal. It's not a bad mouse. Some people don't like it because it's low profile.
01:12:51 ◼ ► Some people love it because it's low profile. Marco loves it because you can swipe on it. Like,
01:12:55 ◼ ► I don't have any hatred for the Magic Mouse. I don't think, there's no, like, iOS 18 photos
01:12:59 ◼ ► hatred for the Magic Mouse out there. It's just like, it's not for everybody, but it's fine,
01:13:04 ◼ ► right? And it's been around 15 years, so it's probably due for a redesign. The fact that it
01:13:08 ◼ ► was mentioned at all in such a public forum maybe made him say, "Hey, Magic Mouse, we should update
01:13:15 ◼ ► that once every few decades, right?" And they said, "Oh yeah, no, I guess," or whatever. But
01:13:19 ◼ ► here's the thing. This is why this is like the Wi-Fi chip. I read that very differently, but go
01:13:23 ◼ ► ahead. Right. Well, anyway, like the Wi-Fi chip thing. Okay. How do you feel, confidence-wise,
01:13:31 ◼ ► about today's Apple designing a new mouse? Setting aside the fact that you love the current one,
01:13:36 ◼ ► Marco, just in general, like, do you think they'll do a good job on a mouse? Because I think human
01:13:42 ◼ ► interface devices that are fit in your hand is not one of Apple's strengths currently. Let me,
01:13:48 ◼ ► I'll get to that in a moment, but my interpretation of the MKBHD question of Tim Cook over the Magic
01:13:54 ◼ ► Mouse is that Marquez stated the question, I forget exactly what he said. It was like something like,
01:14:00 ◼ ► you know, what about the Magic Mouse? He stated the question with an implication that it's not
01:14:06 ◼ ► well liked and something is wrong with it. And Tim Cook was caught off guard by that. You could tell,
01:14:11 ◼ ► you can see in his face that he not only was caught off guard, but he didn't know what Marquez
01:14:16 ◼ ► was talking about. Do people hate the Magic Mouse? That's what Tim is thinking to himself. Exactly.
01:14:22 ◼ ► Marquez probably doesn't like the Magic Mouse, but I don't, again, I don't think there's this
01:14:25 ◼ ► iOS 18 photos type hatred out there. There's just, for computer nerds, a lot of people don't like it,
01:14:31 ◼ ► but then you just ignore it and buy a third party mouse and so it's not that big of a deal. No,
01:14:34 ◼ ► but you could, you could see in Tim Cook's face, it dawned on him in that moment that A,
01:14:38 ◼ ► there is something that a lot of people don't like about this and B, I don't know what it is.
01:14:44 ◼ ► And I bet Tim Cook does not like being surprised, especially in public like that. So I bet he went
01:14:50 ◼ ► back after that and that was a like, fix this situation. Here's the thing though, there's not,
01:14:56 ◼ ► there's not a giant movement out there to hate the Magic Mouse. There's just baseline level of
01:15:00 ◼ ► dislike that's been there since they introduced that mouse 15 years ago, mostly only among computer
01:15:05 ◼ ► nerds and other people are like, take it or leave it. And the fact that Tim Cook would be unaware of
01:15:09 ◼ ► that, like, I don't think it's a thing that he needs to be aware of. What he should be aware of
01:15:12 ◼ ► is like, which products have we not updated in a decade and a half? Maybe put them on a list.
01:15:16 ◼ ► But I don't think there's like, can you believe Tim Cook didn't know that everyone hates the Magic
01:15:20 ◼ ► Mouse? I don't think everyone does hate the Magic Mouse. Like, I don't think it's actually,
01:15:23 ◼ ► you know, even if it was incredibly hated, how many Macs even come with the Magic Mouse,
01:15:29 ◼ ► percentage wise of the Mac sold? Like they come with track pads, whose people buy laptops, like,
01:15:38 ◼ ► he should update it because it's 15 years old. What Marques was talking about is what all sort
01:15:42 ◼ ► of like tech nerd people know is like, oh, well, that mouse is not, a lot of enthusiasts don't like
01:15:47 ◼ ► that mouse. They like it more of a logic style, more buttons, higher profile, more, more quote
01:15:51 ◼ ► unquote ergonomic, depending on you. Like it's not well loved in tech nerd circles, but in regular
01:15:55 ◼ ► people circles, they don't know it exists because they all buy laptops. Like that's, that's the
01:15:59 ◼ ► story. Right? So I think the mouse, to be clear, I think the mouse should be updated. It's been
01:16:03 ◼ ► around for a long time. I personally don't like it. I think it should be updated. It's time to,
01:16:08 ◼ ► 15 years is long enough to say, do you have a new idea about how Apple could make a mouse? Because
01:16:14 ◼ ► Apple has done a not too big number of mice in the history of all their computers from the Apple twos
01:16:20 ◼ ► to the max. There haven't been that many Apple mice. There's been some good ones and bad ones.
01:16:25 ◼ ► And there's the hockey puck one. There was the mouse with the little ball that got clogged all
01:16:28 ◼ ► the time on the top, right? The mighty mouse or whatever, but there haven't been that many mouse
01:16:33 ◼ ► shapes. So Apple is not hasty about that, but I think it's time for them to reconsider. And so
01:16:38 ◼ ► again, we're back to today's Apple making a new mouse. How do you feel that's going to go?
01:16:45 ◼ ► All right. So as the magic mouse lover in the, in the group here, what I like about it is the
01:16:52 ◼ ► scrolling swiping. Like that is everything. That's why I switched to it in the first place from my
01:16:58 ◼ ► previous Logitech, you know, good mice. And you know, before this, I was using that Logitech
01:17:02 ◼ ► mouse that one of the first ones, I think it was the MX master that had like the wheel that you
01:17:06 ◼ ► could like flick hard and it would unlock and spin freely for a little while and then latch back in,
01:17:10 ◼ ► you know, and now the whole bunch of them do it now. But you know, scrolling is everything.
01:17:15 ◼ ► It turns out scrolling the way you scroll on touch pads is way better for me and the way I
01:17:21 ◼ ► use computers than the way you scroll with a mouse wheel. The magic mouse gives you touch pad
01:17:27 ◼ ► scrolling on top of a mouse. So that is the good thing about it. Everything else about it, I, you
01:17:32 ◼ ► know, I tolerate or it's fine or whatever. But that's what I like about it. Now, when you look
01:17:38 ◼ ► at the magic mouse, like this was designed in a previous era of Apple and of their hardware
01:17:43 ◼ ► design. Probably almost nobody or nobody who is designed, who was involved in the design of the
01:17:50 ◼ ► magic mouse is likely to still be at Apple today or still be in the design group. Because, you
01:17:54 ◼ ► know, especially the design group has had a lot of turnover in the meantime. But so, you know,
01:17:59 ◼ ► keep in mind, like what we're comparing this to is really a past era of Apple. Like the magic mouse
01:18:06 ◼ ► design, especially if you include the AA version is very old, as you said, like what, 15 years?
01:18:18 ◼ ► other reason, then none of their products are this style anymore. Like this is just a totally
01:18:23 ◼ ► different version of what they make today. So I'm interested to see what that would mean.
01:18:30 ◼ ► I do think that they wouldn't go through the trouble of redesigning it because mice are so
01:18:35 ◼ ► unimportant to Apple, unless they were going to actually do a more substantial change than just
01:18:42 ◼ ► changing the port. So, you know, so obviously I think they're going to try to fix the complaints.
01:18:51 ◼ ► everything was so much better in that one. They gave us back the SD card slot. They gave us back
01:18:58 ◼ ► the HDMI port. You know, they put the headphone jack back on the right side of the computer.
01:19:02 ◼ ► They gave us back, yeah, MagSafe. Like they are capable of going in a less minimal, less
01:19:09 ◼ ► stripped down industrial design direction when customers demand it enough and when it's enough
01:19:13 ◼ ► of a gain. We've seen that now with the MacBook Pro. So we know they can do that. I think the
01:19:20 ◼ ► mouse has a decent chance, not a guarantee, but has a decent chance of going in that same direction.
01:19:26 ◼ ► Because not only have we seen that happen with the MacBook Pro, but also like who uses mice now?
01:19:31 ◼ ► As John said, like it's different than it was 15 years ago. 15 years ago, yeah, laptops were still
01:19:37 ◼ ► dominant then, but I think they're way more dominant now. So the people who actually buy
01:19:48 ◼ ► Apple realized now, you know what, most people have figured out right click, so maybe we can do
01:19:53 ◼ ► something a little bit better there. Another thing to consider, by the way, is that this weird
01:19:57 ◼ ► phenomenon, so obviously all the laptops don't come with mice. They just have the trackpads, right?
01:20:01 ◼ ► But at this stage, I think, was it most of Apple's desktops also don't come with the mouse? The
01:20:07 ◼ ► the the mini doesn't come with one. I guess the iMac comes with one. Oh, that's right. The Mac Pro
01:20:11 ◼ ► does. I forget because I don't use it. Yeah, the iMac and the Mac Pro both come with one and you
01:20:15 ◼ ► can configure them to come with a trackpad instead. Sometimes in addition, but I think usually it's
01:20:21 ◼ ► just instead now. But they don't come in the box. Like the Mac Pro, I had forgotten that the Mac Pro
01:20:25 ◼ ► does come with one in the box. Like of all the computers to not come with a mouse, you would
01:20:28 ◼ ► think of it with the Mac Pro, but it does actually come with a mouse in the actual box, which again,
01:20:35 ◼ ► iMac makes the most sense because it's color matched and like it's all, it's an all, the whole
01:20:39 ◼ ► point is it's all in one. You get everything you need. But Mac Mini and Mac Studio, no mouse, right?
01:20:43 ◼ ► Correct. It's a separate, I mean, you can attach it. You can, during checkout, it will ask you to
01:20:47 ◼ ► buy one, but the Mac Mini and the Mac Studio box do not have a place for a mouse or a trackpad
01:20:52 ◼ ► inside them. So that's, that's half of Apple's laptops. They didn't even put it, put a mouse in
01:20:58 ◼ ► the box because it's bring your own. And arguably the Mac Pro should also be like that. Although,
01:21:02 ◼ ► I guess the box is so big that they have plenty of room to put a mouse or a trackpad inside.
01:21:06 ◼ ► Put it inside the Mac Pro, like in a bay somewhere. But you know, but anyway, it is odd
01:21:12 ◼ ► that like back in the day, if you bought a Mac, you know, that wasn't in a laptop, it came with
01:21:17 ◼ ► a mouse and today 50/50. Yeah. If that, I mean, that's obviously, you know, which one you buy
01:21:21 ◼ ► and which ones sell them more volumes. Obviously when you go into percentages of people who buy
01:21:24 ◼ ► the things, but yeah, it is like, it is interesting. And again, with the option, I don't even know what
01:21:28 ◼ ► the default is, if there is one, but I bet a lot of people do choose the trackpad just because like
01:21:33 ◼ ► Casey, like they like that better. Sure. But you know, I think if they're going to go through the
01:21:38 ◼ ► trouble of designing a mouse now, I do think there is a non-zero chance they will aim it a little bit
01:21:44 ◼ ► more towards like people who actually care about mice and use mice for like, and are experts in
01:21:50 ◼ ► using mice because it is now so often that is like people are choosing to do this who like, who, who
01:21:55 ◼ ► are actually power users now. So, you know, I'm not expecting this to look like the latest MX Logitech
01:22:02 ◼ ► master or whatever with 17 buttons and like, and I'm also not expecting it to be super ergonomic
01:22:07 ◼ ► because one thing I also can't imagine Apple doing is making a left or right sided mouse. Like I think
01:22:13 ◼ ► they're going to make one mouse that is symmetric. So I would not expect the curvature that you get
01:22:18 ◼ ► on like modern ergonomic gaming mice and stuff where it's like made for only a right hand or
01:22:24 ◼ ► only a left hand. So what I can guess is probably going to be largely similar to what we see,
01:22:31 ◼ ► but maybe they'll make it a little bit taller and a little bit boxier to be able to accommodate a
01:22:37 ◼ ► charging port somewhere like on the front. Hopefully that's what I'm guessing they're most
01:22:42 ◼ ► likely to do. So if you really hate the current one for reasons other than the charge port location,
01:22:48 ◼ ► I wouldn't hold your breath that they're going to make a mouse that you like. But if you use the
01:22:54 ◼ ► current one and are inconvenienced by its design in a couple of ways, maybe they'll make that
01:22:59 ◼ ► better. I think there was another rumor report from Korea that actually did make a somewhat
01:23:04 ◼ ► direct comparison to the Logitech mouse saying that Apple's new mouse would be more ergonomic,
01:23:08 ◼ ► more like the Logitech mice. But using the example of the laptops, here's the thing. The fixing what
01:23:14 ◼ ► was wrong with the laptops, yes, it kind of sort of required them to make the laptops a little bit
01:23:21 ◼ ► boxier. They got rid of the, I think, more attractive Johnny Ive design case that had the
01:23:26 ◼ ► shallow curve towards the edges and everything because they just needed a little bit more room.
01:23:30 ◼ ► And that was the change we wanted them to make. But practically speaking, if you show these
01:23:35 ◼ ► laptops to just an average person who doesn't know the minutia of Apple stuff, they're not going to
01:23:41 ◼ ► think they look radically different. They had to change the MacBook Pros in such a subtle way that
01:23:47 ◼ ► is maybe obvious to us because we're obsessed with the fine details of them, but it still basically
01:23:51 ◼ ► looks like a laptop. It's not that much thicker. It's not that much more slab sided. It does have
01:23:56 ◼ ► more holes in the side of it. But other than that, they didn't have to change it a lot.
01:23:59 ◼ ► They can't make a change that fine to the Magic Mouse and make any substantial difference.
01:24:09 ◼ ► they have to make it taller enough that it's going to be uglier, right? And look a little bit more
01:24:18 ◼ ► like I think the problem with the mouse is they want to look like a beautiful object when no one
01:24:22 ◼ ► is using it. The current one does. If you can't just do a change of a few millimeters like they
01:24:29 ◼ ► did in the MacBook Pro and say, "See, we solved it." If they do that, I guess they fix the charging
01:24:34 ◼ ► port location and people stop complaining. But if they do that, they haven't really changed the Magic
01:24:38 ◼ ► Mouse. And the rumors seem to be that they're trying to make it "more ergonomic." So they can't
01:24:44 ◼ ► add one millimeter to it. They have to add substantially. And I think once you start adding
01:24:47 ◼ ► substantially, you're into that situation, you highlighted it very well, you come to this question
01:24:52 ◼ ► real fast, which is symmetrical or not symmetrical. Because once you start making it bigger, you're
01:24:56 ◼ ► making it bigger so it can fit into the negative space of someone's hand. And then you have to ask,
01:25:01 ◼ ► "Which hand?" You could always make a right and a left model. That's a thing Apple could do.
01:25:04 ◼ ► It's not a popular thing that people do, but it's a thing they could do it, right? But once you start
01:25:09 ◼ ► making it bigger, you're like, "What am I raising this mouse up into?" You're raising it up into a
01:25:14 ◼ ► hand and hands are not symmetrical. And so if you make a larger symmetrical mouse, which Apple did,
01:25:26 ◼ ► When they did the ADB mice, they were lower profile. Both the original ADB mouse that was
01:25:31 ◼ ► like two flat surfaces and the rounded one, they were starting to get low because a tall mouse
01:25:38 ◼ ► should fit into the space of a single hand, which means it's going to be... Even if you do like my
01:25:43 ◼ ► Microsoft mouse that I have now, it's mostly symmetrical, but it's got that thing on the
01:25:47 ◼ ► side for your thumb, your right thumb to be on, right? And your fingers of your right hand go...
01:25:53 ◼ ► Like it's not symmetrical. It's very difficult to make a mouse that is both ergonomic and also
01:25:58 ◼ ► symmetrical. So I don't... I feel like they won't have the... They won't be willing to make their
01:26:05 ◼ ► mouse unattractive to make it ergonomically good. And merely making a tall mouse that's symmetrical
01:26:12 ◼ ► will not satisfy anybody because the people who wanted a more ergonomic mouse are going to say,
01:26:17 ◼ ► "Well, this isn't it," because it doesn't even recognize the fact that my hand is not symmetrical.
01:26:20 ◼ ► It's just as big. It's like the original Mac mouse, a big box in my hand. How is this better?
01:26:26 ◼ ► Might as well just go back to the low one because at least when I lay my hand flat and use it,
01:26:30 ◼ ► my hand becomes more symmetrical than when it's gripping. So this is an interesting test of their
01:26:35 ◼ ► industrial design. How ugly will they be willing to make this mouse as an object to make it better
01:26:46 ◼ ► make it like a tiny bit less attractive for a massive functional benefit. And I don't think
01:26:58 ◼ ► you're not getting a massive, massive functional benefit. So my current theory is it'll be almost...
01:27:08 ◼ ► low profile. Otherwise it just becomes unsatisfying to everybody. It'll still be low profile. They'll
01:27:12 ◼ ► just find a better solution to the charging port. My main hope for it, mostly for Marco,
01:27:16 ◼ ► is because I don't even use this mouse, is the things underneath the surface that you swipe
01:27:21 ◼ ► are very low resolution and crude. 15 years later, they can essentially increase the DPI
01:27:26 ◼ ► and sensitivity of the swipey area on top. And I think that will result, especially with like
01:27:31 ◼ ► 120 Hertz screens, I think the improving that resolution will make the mouse better for people
01:27:36 ◼ ► like Marco who like this mouse. And if Apple refuses to give up on this being a beautiful
01:27:42 ◼ ► object as it sits on the table, then the best design continues to be the current low profile
01:27:48 ◼ ► mouse, just with higher DPI of the tracking. Cause that's another thing that Apple is like
01:27:52 ◼ ► decades behind on in terms of like how well it tracks surfaces and how, you know, the granularity
01:27:57 ◼ ► of the updates and how fast it can handle things. You don't have to make it a gaming mouse, but it's
01:28:00 ◼ ► been 15 years. Right. And then the, uh, the sensitivity and resolution of the swiping thing
01:28:06 ◼ ► on top. I don't think they're going to do a second right button, but who knows that? I mean, the magic
01:28:11 ◼ ► mouse has a right button. It's just a weird one. That's like capacitive. And you have to not touch
01:28:14 ◼ ► the left side when you're touching the right side, but that's another thing. Can they bring themselves
01:28:18 ◼ ► to make it to a button mouse as in like a hairline, a hairline split in the top surface making,
01:28:24 ◼ ► you know what I mean? Like, can they do that or will they continue to do make sure your fingers
01:28:27 ◼ ► not touching the left side of the mouse when you push down the right side. Otherwise we're
01:28:30 ◼ ► going to register it as a left click. Are they going to still be doing that? So this is something
01:28:34 ◼ ► I definitely have my eye on. Not because I really care that much, because I have basically zero hope
01:28:39 ◼ ► that they're going to make a mouse that I like, which is fine. I have this third party mouse that
01:28:42 ◼ ► Microsoft no longer makes that I should really have bought eight of, but didn't. And that fails
01:28:46 ◼ ► all the time. And I've already had like three of them die on me. Um, but I'm just interested. It's
01:28:50 ◼ ► like a good test of Apple's industrial design. How do they solve this problem? How, and it's low
01:28:54 ◼ ► stakes because who cares? Like if they mess up their mouse, like nobody cares. Like, you know,
01:28:59 ◼ ► the headline for this item in the notes is save the turtles, save the harpooning the turtle.
01:29:08 ◼ ► the turtles will no longer be harpooned. Surely they will fix that. It wouldn't be amazing if
01:29:12 ◼ ► they have a totally new completely redesigned mouse, but the charging port is still dead center
01:29:16 ◼ ► on the bottom. That'll be an amazing troll. But anyway, this is the thing I'm keeping my eye on.
01:29:26 ◼ ► a good bellwether for, uh, the, the Apple of today. I was going to make the same point about how the,
01:29:36 ◼ ► maybe that's related. Maybe it's not. Uh, but I don't know. You're, you're convincing me with it,
01:29:42 ◼ ► not with being symmetrical, being bad, even if it's taller like that, the argument you made a
01:29:46 ◼ ► moment ago really has convinced me. Maybe this isn't, maybe this isn't so great after all. I
01:29:51 ◼ ► don't know. I was really looking forward to it just in principle because, you know, again,
01:29:55 ◼ ► the magic mouse is not well liked from ergonomic standpoint from a general standpoint because
01:30:00 ◼ ► people aren't using mouse using mice anymore. But now, now you really got me worried about the whole,
01:30:10 ◼ ► I've got a lot of these mice in my attic. If Margot wants to, uh, he needs replacements.
01:30:14 ◼ ► If the new one is not to his liking, although you're probably gonna have to get my, uh,
01:30:17 ◼ ► black Mac pro one because that's still sealed in the box. I think it will probably be fine,
01:30:30 ◼ ► I don't think they're going to change too much. Um, especially, you know, like you were saying,
01:30:37 ◼ ► Their keyboards are all super flat, which is not good ergonomically. It's actually better than
01:30:42 ◼ ► them being tilted up though. Well, they are actually slightly tilted up by like one millimeter.
01:30:52 ◼ ► but tons of people use them happily and they're fine. They could be better. Apple has said,
01:30:56 ◼ ► okay, this is as far as we will go for ergonomics and no further. Um, I, and that's currently
01:31:01 ◼ ► designed at the mouse. That's why I'm thinking like if they do change the mouse, again,
01:31:06 ◼ ► I think it's probably going to be in relatively subtle ways. I'm not expecting a major redesign.
01:31:12 ◼ ► I'm expecting minor tweaks to lift up the front edge just enough that they can put a USB C port
01:31:18 ◼ ► under there and call it a day. And I think that's probably going to be what they do. And honestly,
01:31:23 ◼ ► that would be fine. It would be exactly as ergonomic as their keyboards are and it would
01:31:28 ◼ ► fix an annoyance. And I think that's, that's, that's by far the most likely outcome. Well,
01:31:34 ◼ ► you don't know if you guys remember this, but Apple did actually ship actual Apple mice with
01:31:38 ◼ ► side buttons. Do you remember those? No. The Apology mouse was a mouse with side buttons.
01:31:44 ◼ ► You squeezed it for something. What was that? What was the squeeze gesture? Yeah. There were
01:31:48 ◼ ► buttons on the essential buttons on the side. Every sort of third party mouse, even my Microsoft
01:31:51 ◼ ► mouse has three side buttons has like a, uh, uh, a forward, middle and back type thing. I don't
01:31:56 ◼ ► even know what I have the map to because I never use them, but side buttons on my serve. Definitely
01:32:00 ◼ ► a thing. And Apple did ship a mouse with physical side, multiple mice. I think the Apology mouse had
01:32:05 ◼ ► it. Didn't the one with a little tiny track ball on the top. Didn't that one have a squeeze gesture?
01:32:08 ◼ ► The Mighty mouse. I don't remember if that had it. The Apology mouse definitely did. It was the one
01:32:12 ◼ ► that was a clear thick clear case that they gave to everyone as an apology for the iMac Puck mouse
01:32:16 ◼ ► that had side buttons. They were bad, but I'm saying is Apple his, you know, long ago, Apple
01:32:23 ◼ ► was not above shipping a mouse that had more than one physical button, including a side button,
01:32:28 ◼ ► which is like side button is so kind of like outside the mainstream of what Apple wants to do.
01:32:34 ◼ ► Like they still didn't, that mouse still didn't have a right button on it, like a physical right
01:32:38 ◼ ► button, but it did have side buttons. So I don't know. Maybe there'll be, maybe they'll surprise us
01:32:43 ◼ ► and ship a mouse that has two top buttons and a side button or one top button and two side buttons.
01:32:48 ◼ ► Two turntables and a microphone. They could call it an action button. Yeah, exactly. There you go.
01:32:53 ◼ ► With the innovation. Oh, they should have, they're gonna put the stupid digital crown on it.
01:32:55 ◼ ► They put it on the vision pro for crying out now. Oh my God. Who knows what they'll do. Yeah.
01:33:01 ◼ ► Keep an eye on it. Pretty fluent. Like, you know, hit the button on the side of your mouse,
01:33:06 ◼ ► turn the flashlight on. That'd be awesome. It's the best change I've made was making the action
01:33:11 ◼ ► button, flashlight button. I told you it's great. It's so good. I still use it for the Whole Foods
01:33:16 ◼ ► app. Oh gosh, Jon. All right. Thank you to our sponsor this week, Squarespace. And thank you to
01:33:23 ◼ ► our members who support us directly. You can join us at atp.fm/join. One of the perks of membership
01:33:29 ◼ ► is ATP Overtime, our weekly bonus topic. This week on ATP Overtime, we're talking about,
01:33:34 ◼ ► well, Jon is talking about fast directory sizing and APFS. This is an interesting tidbit of how
01:33:41 ◼ ► APFS, how one of its features works and how it might influence Jon's app that he's building.
01:34:04 ◼ ► Cause it was accidental. Accidental. Oh, it was accidental. Accidental. Jon didn't do any
01:34:11 ◼ ► research. Marco and Casey wouldn't let him. Cause it was accidental. Accidental. Oh, it was
01:34:18 ◼ ► accidental. Accidental. And you can find the show notes at atp.fm. And if you're into Mastodon,
01:34:39 ◼ ► A-N-T-M-A-R-C-O-R-M-E-N-S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-R-A-C-U-S-A. It's accidental. Accidental. They didn't mean to.
01:35:08 ◼ ► So, uh, I don't remember if I said this to you at all, be that privately or on air, but I heard you
01:35:15 ◼ ► talking about your Yolink. Well, how did you describe it? They're like low, long, long range,
01:35:21 ◼ ► maybe low voltage, uh, transmitter. LoRa is the standard. I forget what it stands for. I'll have
01:35:26 ◼ ► to look it up in the show notes for an old rectum. But it's like low frequency radio communication.
01:35:31 ◼ ► It's not Bluetooth. It's not wifi. And so I had asked Aaron for a starter pack from Yolink that
01:35:40 ◼ ► included one of their hubs. This one does not have ethernet, which I don't love. And I think there is
01:35:45 ◼ ► another one that does, but that's neither here nor there. And it has a couple of, I'll call them
01:35:49 ◼ ► contact sensors. I'm sure there's a better name for it, but basically when you have two magnets
01:35:53 ◼ ► that when they're next to each other, the sensors registers is closed. And when you separate the
01:35:58 ◼ ► magnets, it registers as open. These are the same content sensors that I have in the garage door for
01:36:02 ◼ ► my Rube Goldberg garage door alert system. And so I got, I asked for that from Aaron for Christmas.
01:36:08 ◼ ► She got it for me. And since the last time we spoke, I have put one contact sensor on the
01:36:14 ◼ ► stationary port portion of my mailbox, the other contact sensor on the door of the mailbox. And now
01:36:19 ◼ ► I am getting alerted whenever my mail is delivered and it makes me so happy. Aaron has made so much
01:36:26 ◼ ► fun of me for this. She doesn't understand why I need to know this. And honestly, I don't need to
01:36:31 ◼ ► know this, but it makes me happy that I do know exactly when the mail was delivered. Do I need to
01:36:36 ◼ ► go check the mail? Let me look. No, I don't. But you know, 20 minutes later, do I look, I can go
01:36:41 ◼ ► look. Yes, I do need to check the mail. There's no checking actually. I know it's there. It's magical.
01:36:46 ◼ ► Now, the other thing that Aaron has pointed out numerous times, and she is 100% correct,
01:37:00 ◼ ► I should take a picture. I haven't taken a picture. I will. I will. I will take a picture and I will
01:37:08 ◼ ► send it to the boys and we'll put it in the show notes. But imagine, so the contact sensor, the
01:37:13 ◼ ► actual magnet on the part of the sensor that is on the door of the mailbox, the magnet portion
01:37:22 ◼ ► is approximately the same width as the mailbox door itself. However, there's also a little bit
01:37:29 ◼ ► of extra plastic with a couple of screw holes so you can mount it on things, right? Well, the screw
01:37:35 ◼ ► hole section is totally poking out past the end of the mailbox door. And then if you look at the
01:37:42 ◼ ► portion of the mailbox that the mail carrier generally doesn't see because it's after they've
01:37:46 ◼ ► passed, there's definitely the other contact sensor with wires that are going into the place
01:37:52 ◼ ► that the mailbox is mounted on. It's not wood that our mailbox is mounted on. We just so happen to
01:37:58 ◼ ► have like a plastic one and you can take off a little cover and there's just a hole there. And
01:38:03 ◼ ► that's where I stuck the transmitter. It looks shady as hell, gentlemen. It looks so shady.
01:38:08 ◼ ► But the good news is it has been working very well. And for those real nerds, even though I'm
01:38:14 ◼ ► sure I could do this with the Yolink app directly, what I've done is I've added an integration for
01:38:20 ◼ ► Yolink to Home Assistant. And then I have an automation on Home Assistant that will then use
01:38:25 ◼ ► pushover to send me a push notification when the mail arrives with the exact time the mail has
01:38:30 ◼ ► arrived. It makes me so happy. It's so stupid, so unnecessary. And it makes me so happy. And I'm so
01:38:35 ◼ ► glad I'm in the Yolink cult. And now as with all things, when I find something new and exciting,
01:38:39 ◼ ► see also Raspberry Pi, now it's like I'm smacking my arm trying to figure out, okay, what else can
01:38:44 ◼ ► I do? What else do I need a sensor for? Maybe I do care about the fridge. I didn't think I cared
01:38:48 ◼ ► about the fridge. Maybe I cared about the fridge. Maybe I should get a sensor for that. I am already
01:38:51 ◼ ► losing control and it's no good. So John, it's all your fault. Yeah, the refrigerator one is just
01:38:56 ◼ ► going to let you learn how often people stand in front of the refrigerator with the door open and
01:39:00 ◼ ► causing the temperature to go above the safe area. That's me all the time. Yeah. Well, once you have
01:39:05 ◼ ► the sensor, you'll suddenly know that and it's a little bit troubling. In fact, I've had to raise
01:39:09 ◼ ► the threshold of my refrigerator one just to try to say, look, I'm just going to have to accept
01:39:14 ◼ ► that it's going to be 41 degrees in there when people open the door. So maybe I'll set the thing
01:39:18 ◼ ► at 42 or 43. Basically what I want to know is, hey, did someone leave the door open? Like they
01:39:23 ◼ ► went to bed and they left the fridge door open a crack? That's what I want to know. Not did another
01:39:28 ◼ ► person spend 10 minutes in front of the open fridge door on a hot summer day and make the
01:39:31 ◼ ► temperature go up? So I wouldn't necessarily recommend that one unless you have a problem
01:39:35 ◼ ► with it. Well, maybe you as your kids get older, start leaving the fridge open by crack and
01:39:38 ◼ ► destroying everything in your fridge more often or your freezer. Freezer is a little bit easier
01:39:42 ◼ ► because it maintains temperature a little bit better and you just put it at the freezing point
01:39:45 ◼ ► and you probably won't get any bad alerts. But the one thing I will tell you that you might want to
01:39:49 ◼ ► do, well, maybe not, but the water leak detectors. If there's any place in your house that you think
01:39:54 ◼ ► there could ever be a leak that you want to know about it, you won't get any false alarms from that
01:39:58 ◼ ► one. They're like 17 bucks. The batteries last for like three years. I was going to say put it
01:40:02 ◼ ► next to your water heater, but that's in your garage. So if it floods, who cares? Put it like
01:40:06 ◼ ► between every toilet and the wall or under every sink. Like anywhere that you have a trailer. I
01:40:12 ◼ ► don't have any of this stuff, but for insurance reasons, I had to get myself a home alarm system
01:40:19 ◼ ► from SimpliSafe recently, not a sponsorship. It's like pick whatever of these sensors you want. And
01:40:26 ◼ ► they have water leak sensors for some relatively tiny amount of money. So I'm like, all right,
01:40:31 ◼ ► I'll get six of them. I put them everywhere, under each sink and in every bathroom. And also,
01:40:43 ◼ ► where it says low frequency RF thing? Yeah, I believe it's custom because there's like a
01:40:47 ◼ ► SimpliSafe home base thing that all their stuff talks to. Yeah, that's how the YOLN things work
01:40:52 ◼ ► too, by the way. You get a quote unquote smart hub, which gets on your wifi network, but then
01:40:56 ◼ ► also communicates over the proprietary RF thing to the sensors. And that's why the sensors can be so
01:41:01 ◼ ► cheap and last so long because they don't talk wifi. They're not on your wifi. They have no idea
01:41:05 ◼ ► wifi exists. They just talk to the hub from like a quarter mile away or so they claim. And then the
01:41:12 ◼ ► hub talks to your wifi. So you can just put the hub right next to your wifi thing and put the sensors
01:41:16 ◼ ► anywhere in your house. And I'm assuming in three years, they'll start notifying me on the app that
01:41:20 ◼ ► their battery's getting low, but the battery is supposed to last a long time. Yep. So I'm,
01:41:24 ◼ ► I'm digging this. I, like I said, I'm looking for reasons to install this in all the places, but
01:41:30 ◼ ► so far so good. I'm really pleased with this. I had no idea that this was a thing, not only
01:41:35 ◼ ► yelling specifically, but this whole low raw thing, uh, who raw, uh, no, the low raw thing that you
01:41:40 ◼ ► were talking about. Uh, this has made me very happy and is giving me an outlet for evermore
01:41:45 ◼ ► nervous energy, which I'm good with. So, uh, thank you. And also, no, thank you. Cause now I'm gonna
01:41:49 ◼ ► spend a bunch of money on damn water sent water leak sensors too. They're cheap. You can buy it.
01:41:53 ◼ ► They can get another 17 bucks for a water leak detector. Just buy a couple of them. Chuck more
01:41:56 ◼ ► on your house. That's yeah. That's the thing. Like it's like, it's like once you, once you are in the
01:41:59 ◼ ► system, like, you know, once you have their hub and you have their app set up and you have their
01:42:04 ◼ ► alerts set up, you might as well like, you know, cause you're, you're not like, you know, paying a
01:42:07 ◼ ► monthly fee per sensor or anything. So like you might as well spend an extra 17 bucks to get a few
01:42:12 ◼ ► more of them and Chuck them around the house. Like anywhere that that could be useful anywhere that
01:42:16 ◼ ► like, yeah, a water leak or something like that's, that's useful information to know. And it's part
01:42:20 ◼ ► of the advantage of like, I think one of the lessons we've learned with smart home gear so far
01:42:26 ◼ ► is wifi is bad. Home smart home gear can be very useful. The less that's on wifi, the better,
01:42:36 ◼ ► the most reliable and most useful smart home things tend to be ones that have some other
01:42:41 ◼ ► kind of protocol. They speak that is not wifi. And that usually requires a hub somewhere in your,
01:42:48 ◼ ► you know, and, and, and this is part of the promise that thread is trying or purporting to solve
01:42:54 ◼ ► or to unify all these standards into one new standard XKCD style. That's what every single
01:43:06 ◼ ► What good is that doing us someday? Right. So this, this may at some point be a good thing.
01:43:20 ◼ ► but they have it. So I don't know. But anyway, everything that is not wifi smart home is almost
01:43:28 ◼ ► always better. It is usually like, usually the devices themselves are cheaper per device.
01:43:34 ◼ ► Usually they are more reliable. They usually have better battery lives. If they are battery powered,
01:43:39 ◼ ► they usually have longer ranges or, you know, in the case of these things, like if you're not
01:43:44 ◼ ► speaking wifi and going on wifi frequencies, you can probably use lower frequency radio waves,
01:43:50 ◼ ► which penetrate walls better have longer range. So basically getting off of wifi is better in
01:43:56 ◼ ► almost every way for smart home devices that are not cameras. Cameras unfortunately need the
01:44:00 ◼ ► bandwidth of wifi, but everything else usually doesn't. And that's why wifi is bad for home
01:44:05 ◼ ► things. It's not like wifi itself is a bad protocol or anything. It's just designed for
01:44:10 ◼ ► higher and higher data rates for things like computers, but a home device that's telling you
01:44:13 ◼ ► the temperature and humidity has such low bandwidth requirements that using a sophisticated,
01:44:19 ◼ ► complicated high frequency protocol like wifi is just a waste. It's a waste of battery energy.
01:44:24 ◼ ► It's like the standard is not made for that. These other standards that have incredibly low bandwidth,
01:44:29 ◼ ► but can, you know, penetrate walls and go from a quarter mile away on a single double A battery.
01:44:34 ◼ ► Like that's, it's a better fit for the application. So we're not saying like, why did they make wifi
01:44:38 ◼ ► if it's so bad? Wifi is good for what it does. It gives you like wireless data to your phone and
01:44:43 ◼ ► your laptop. And even maybe your Apple TV, it's bad for a thing that's telling you whether there's
01:44:48 ◼ ► been a leak or not. That literally communicates almost nothing. Yeah. It's like, I need to send
01:44:52 ◼ ► this one, it's like, you know, one bite of transfer basically to my home. Has there been a leak since
01:44:58 ◼ ► the last minute I asked yes or no? No. Good. Done. Exactly. Bammoth over. Problem solved.
01:45:03 ◼ ► Anyway. So thank you, but no, thank you because I'm going to go broke putting sensors in a thousand
01:45:08 ◼ ► different places that I don't need them. Yeah. The reason I mentioned the water heater, by the way,
01:45:12 ◼ ► is I already had, before I got the YOLING things, I already had a wifi sensor on my water heater
01:45:17 ◼ ► because twice now living in this house for 20 something years, twice, my water heater has gotten
01:45:23 ◼ ► old enough that it's sprung a leak. Luckily not a catastrophic leak because water heaters, just
01:45:28 ◼ ► hot water tank heater, whatever they eventually corrosion eats away at the inside of them. There's
01:45:31 ◼ ► a big sacrificial anode. See the rectives episode where I talk about this. That gets eaten away.
01:45:36 ◼ ► Once that gets eaten away, guess what? The tank gets eaten away. And if you're not on top of
01:45:40 ◼ ► replacing it exactly when the warranty expires, cause they put the anode in there. That's big
01:45:43 ◼ ► enough. They think as soon as the warranty runs out, the anode will be gone and then it will fail.
01:45:48 ◼ ► They're really good. They really can't, they could just put a bigger anode in. Like I think when they
01:45:52 ◼ ► sell you like a 15 year old one versus a 10 year, the only difference is bigger anode in the 15 one
01:45:57 ◼ ► and they charge you 300 bucks. But anyway, um, when they leak, if they catastrophically leak,
01:46:02 ◼ ► your basement fills water and it's terrible. But usually what happens is corrosion makes a little
01:46:06 ◼ ► tiny hole that starts spraying out or dribbling out water. And it's still an emergency. They'll
01:46:10 ◼ ► be like, Oh, turn off the water and plumber come or whatever. But, uh, it's something you want to
01:46:14 ◼ ► know about ASAP. I've been lucky enough both times to be home. And we go down to the basement enough
01:46:20 ◼ ► because the laundry machines are down there to notice it and say, you know, and that's why I
01:46:24 ◼ ► bought the sensor. Like I don't want to be away from home when that happens because even a small
01:46:29 ◼ ► leak could flood my basement. I should really just replace my water heater more often, but you know,