00:00:08 ◼ ► From Relay, this is Upgrade, episode 542 for December 16th, 2024. This episode is brought to you by
00:00:17 ◼ ► Squarespace and Fitbud. My name is Mike Hurley and I'm joined by Jason Snell. Hi Jason Snell!
00:00:22 ◼ ► Hi Mike Hurley, how are you doing? Oh I'm feeling great. I have a Snell Talk question for you to
00:00:26 ◼ ► start out this week's episode. It comes from Mark. Mark wants to know, Jason regular listeners are
00:00:33 ◼ ► well aware of your opinions about peanut butter, but what are your thoughts on peanut butter
00:00:37 ◼ ► confections such as Reese's Peanut Butter Cups, Peanut Brittle, Peanut Butter Ice Cream, etc?
00:00:43 ◼ ► Peanut butter flavor is good, stuff that tastes like real peanuts is better than stuff that
00:00:49 ◼ ► tastes like fake peanuts. Reese's Peanut Butter Cups are nice, peanut butter and chocolate are
00:00:55 ◼ ► two great tastes that taste great together. Peanut Brittle is great, I don't have it very often.
00:01:01 ◼ ► Notice my dad's favorite candy actually was peanut brittle. Peanut butter ice cream is good. I'll
00:01:07 ◼ ► tell you, there's a frozen yogurt place that we always went when we visited Lauren's Parents and
00:01:12 ◼ ► we actually went, they went, they kind of closed down the store by their house but they've opened
00:01:17 ◼ ► a new one now which we were all very excited about because my kids especially like this was
00:01:25 ◼ ► And most frozen yogurt places, but certainly Golden Spoon, always had a peanut butter flavor.
00:01:30 ◼ ► And what's interesting is there are actually two kinds of peanut butter flavor. Like I said,
00:01:35 ◼ ► there's kind of the one that tastes more like roasted peanuts and then there's the one that
00:01:39 ◼ ► tastes like peanut butter flavor. And the peanut butter flavor is fine, but the roasted peanut,
00:01:46 ◼ ► the actual like real peanut butter sort of flavor is the best. And in fact, if I see peanut butter
00:01:54 ◼ ► on a frozen yogurt menu, I will order it always default. Number one, always what I will get. But
00:02:05 ◼ ► but the frozen yogurt, there's something about it. That's just like a special kind of thing for me,
00:02:16 ◼ ► frozen yogurt. Geez, I've got to try and keep somebody's, you know, we had a family thing at
00:02:20 ◼ ► the weekend and everyone was making fun of me. - Join us. - As they do. - We draw your American.
00:02:25 ◼ ► - You say you American. Anyway, frozen yogurt is closer in consistency to peanut butter than
00:02:32 ◼ ► ice cream is. And I imagine that might make it nicer. - It is. That's true. - Not that I would
00:02:37 ◼ ► know because I'm definitely allergic to peanuts, but in visuals, I can see that it would be,
00:02:42 ◼ ► you know? - Well, I mean, you know the difference between, well, that's true. You can see what
00:02:45 ◼ ► peanut butter is from a distance and probably have tried frozen yogurt before. - I sure have.
00:02:53 ◼ ► If you would like to send in a Snow Talk question to help us open a future episode of the show,
00:02:59 ◼ ► go to upgradefeedback.com and do that. Thank you to Mark for sending that one in. Let's do some
00:03:06 ◼ ► follow-up. This really isn't follow-up, but there isn't really a section to put it, to say I want to
00:03:11 ◼ ► say. - It is follow-up. - It's follow-up, I guess. - It's secret follow-up. - Yes, you know what?
00:03:17 ◼ ► Very secret follow-up to my last couple of years. I'm very happy to share that my wife and I are
00:03:22 ◼ ► expecting our first child in February. Very excited. Edina is doing great. We're having
00:03:28 ◼ ► a baby girl and we could not be happier about it. - I give you my public upgrade. Congratulations
00:03:39 ◼ ► congratulations about it. You kept this on the down low for a long time, which is great. In fact,
00:03:47 ◼ ► funny story, we were over at your house, Lauren and I were over at your house right before the
00:03:52 ◼ ► Relay 10 show over the summer and you were showing us the house. There was one room where you're like,
00:04:04 ◼ ► that was totally the baby's room and they're not telling us that they're having a baby yet,
00:04:14 ◼ ► Edina was pregnant, but it was incredibly early. Still in the very much don't tell anyone phase.
00:04:20 ◼ ► - Right, but I cut your slip and I was like, "I know what's going on here, but we're not
00:04:24 ◼ ► going to say anything. I'm not going to ask. You're going to tell us when you're ready."
00:04:36 ◼ ► Steven taking a month sabbatical, great idea. I'm glad he did it. I do believe was prompted by the
00:04:43 ◼ ► idea that his co-founder was going to be taking paternity leave, but everybody heard about them
00:04:48 ◼ ► in the opposite order. I find that hilarious. - Yes, and me and Steven were on backstage today,
00:04:53 ◼ ► which is a membership show. That's like a monthly membership show. We talk about this of like,
00:04:56 ◼ ► it wasn't like, "Oh, hey, if you're going to do this, then I'm going to take time." But it was
00:05:02 ◼ ► like for him of like, "Oh, you know what? I am able to do this." Because if Mike is able to take
00:05:08 ◼ ► a paternity leave for an extended period of time and that be okay, it means that if Steven wanted
00:05:14 ◼ ► to take leave for some reason, he could do. And so he decided to take his sabbatical, but then
00:05:19 ◼ ► it's ended up being in the inverse as you say. So yeah, I'm going to be away from my shows for
00:05:35 ◼ ► - Great news for all those people who write in when we have a guest host saying the guest host
00:05:38 ◼ ► is great and forget about Mike. - Yeah, those people are going to have a great time. They're
00:05:42 ◼ ► going to be really excited. - Oh man, the listenership on upgrade is going to just shoot up for
00:05:47 ◼ ► six to eight weeks. - Yeah, and then it's going to rocket plummet down to earth in May sometime
00:05:53 ◼ ► when all those people's hearts are broken because I returned to the show. - You triumphantly returned
00:05:58 ◼ ► for the, yep, mm-hmm. - That's planned for sometime in February. - Anyway, I don't have any guest host
00:06:06 ◼ ► announcements to make yet, but I imagine I'm going to rotate through a bunch of people who have guest
00:06:10 ◼ ► hosted on this show before. And so you could pretty much guess who they are. Steven was a great
00:06:14 ◼ ► replacement for you a couple of weeks ago. We'll bring Steven into the mix. I think I've asked,
00:06:19 ◼ ► I guess I am naming names. I asked John Saracusa and he seems up for it. I asked Dan Morin and he
00:06:24 ◼ ► seems up for it. We'll mix through and then... - You need reliable podcasters, right? Like that's
00:06:29 ◼ ► what you need, you know? - Yes, that and also maybe I'll just finally pull the ripcord on the
00:06:34 ◼ ► all kindle episode with Scott McMullen. That'll drive listenership. - Jason, do that the week
00:06:40 ◼ ► before I come back. Everyone will be really happy that I've returned. - You got it. You got it.
00:06:45 ◼ ► Maybe if there's an episode with no ads in it, we'll just pop that one out right then. I don't
00:06:49 ◼ ► know. Anyway, congratulations. - I guess people are asking is that I am going to be away from all
00:06:53 ◼ ► of my shows and I'm only pre-recording Cortex. So we're pre-recording a couple of episodes of
00:06:58 ◼ ► Cortex because otherwise the show won't happen and so we're going to do that and then other than
00:07:02 ◼ ► that all of my co-hosts are being incredible and are going to provide me that time off. So
00:07:06 ◼ ► get ready for a lots of conversation about baby technology because that's going to happen. I will
00:07:12 ◼ ► say send in if you have recommendations for apps or if you have recommendations for baby tech or
00:07:18 ◼ ► just general baby recommendations, send them in. Go to upgradefeedback.com, send them in to me. I
00:07:23 ◼ ► will appreciate it and there will be a whole new realm of content for me to talk about. I will say
00:07:28 ◼ ► before people recommend, there is an app that I've had a bunch of recommendations for right now. I
00:07:34 ◼ ► think it's called Mango Baby and it is made by a solo iOS app developer who's made this app. So
00:07:44 ◼ ► I'm really excited to check that one out because that's exactly what I'm looking for because it's
00:07:54 ◼ ► new stuff every year. I want to get the developer's name because I followed them on Blue Sky today.
00:07:59 ◼ ► - What does it do? - Well okay so this is made by Yile Yang and it is one of these. So maybe,
00:08:06 ◼ ► you know what Jason? This obviously wouldn't have been a thing for you. There is a new thing it
00:08:11 ◼ ► seems that people do where they're tracking things that babies do. You know like you know stuff that
00:08:17 ◼ ► babies do. You track that stuff. - Yeah, yeah. - And share it with partners and things like that.
00:08:23 ◼ ► - We had that too but it was like on a computer or written down. Back then it was like you could
00:08:37 ◼ ► and widgets and everything. That's exactly what I'm looking for. So I'm looking forward to checking
00:08:46 ◼ ► also like to thank everybody for being so wonderful and congratulating us over the last week. It's
00:08:51 ◼ ► been lovely. But now we do have some more follow up. iOS 18.2 featuring Apple intelligence features
00:08:58 ◼ ► is now available. You've written a couple of posts about this and I just wanted to know because you
00:09:02 ◼ ► know obviously I've heard about this in the show but I think I would expect that there are more
00:09:07 ◼ ► people in the Six Colors readership than necessarily Upgrade listenership who maybe tried this out for
00:09:13 ◼ ► the first time and I wondered if you've had any specific feedback. - You know I'm not hearing a
00:09:19 ◼ ► lot about it. I think a lot of people have been on the betas and so they've been trying it out.
00:09:23 ◼ ► Yeah so I have not, it's been relatively quiet. I think that there's a piece we're gonna talk about,
00:09:32 ◼ ► a thing that happened that we talked about later that's the most obvious thing that was ever going
00:09:35 ◼ ► to happen with this and we'll get to that. Definitely it's what you'd expect where some
00:09:42 ◼ ► people are like this isn't very good. They put in pictures of people they know and are horrified
00:09:49 ◼ ► at the results. - Yeah I've been seeing a lot of that. - I did discover after ignoring it the
00:09:54 ◼ ► entire beta that there is this view into creating a generic person. - This blew my mind. I saw this
00:10:02 ◼ ► in Six Colors. I had no idea this existed. - Yeah and it's, I didn't either and you know friend of
00:10:10 ◼ ► the show Griffin from Cult of Mac actually is the one who sent me a note saying oh it's actually
00:10:14 ◼ ► easy to create fake humans. I was like easy except that I didn't know it was there but it's called
00:10:20 ◼ ► appearance. It's in the upper left corner of that thing where it's trying to get you to pick a
00:10:23 ◼ ► person you know not searchable by name which is very frustrating. I mean I guess you can try to
00:10:30 ◼ ► do it typing it in the prompt but that doesn't always work. Anyway you can also choose upper
00:10:34 ◼ ► left corner appearance and then you choose a skin tone and it gives you three buckets that seem to be
00:10:39 ◼ ► more female, assorted and neutral gender and more male. But it's random for every generation of sort
00:10:49 ◼ ► of like what person gets generated so you can't like pick a model and say I want to use this model
00:10:54 ◼ ► in a different setting. You like a model you can't pick it. It's more like you will get this
00:10:58 ◼ ► assortment of generic humans and you can't, you're limited in what you can specify. It's kind of
00:11:07 ◼ ► weird but there is a way to do it. It doesn't work with Image 1 so me trying to draw Abe Lincoln
00:11:17 ◼ ► Image Playground and then for Genmoji you get to pick which of the emoji people if you want a
00:11:26 ◼ ► generic emoji person you can pick male, female or neutral. Yeah because I've made a bunch of those.
00:11:32 ◼ ► I actually made a really great Genmoji today of Adina pregnant which is great which is very funny
00:11:37 ◼ ► and we found it to be very cute. So like Genmoji again I will say is great. Genmoji is such a good
00:11:43 ◼ ► feature. Image Playgrounds not so much but we'll talk more about Apple Intelligence in a minute.
00:11:54 ◼ ► "I generation" that's how I imagine it said. By the way I'm currently listening to the French
00:11:58 ◼ ► Revolution series of The Rest is History. Jason I'm so happy and also sorry that you introduced
00:12:05 ◼ ► this podcast to me. You know when you're on vacation and you get behind on your podcasts
00:12:10 ◼ ► that happened to me and now I'm not catching up on any of them and they're all getting behind
00:12:15 ◼ ► because all I'm doing is just mainlining The Rest is History. The Rest is History. Well it happens
00:12:19 ◼ ► to all of us eventually. Yeah I also I would like to issue my formal apology to all of the podcasts
00:12:26 ◼ ► in the Upgraders category because I think you're going to struggle this year. Probably so. You're
00:12:32 ◼ ► going to struggle but we'll find out anyway. MacRumors is reporting via French publication
00:12:37 ◼ ► "I generation" that from December 28th Apple will no longer be selling any iPhone of a lightning
00:12:43 ◼ ► connector in the European Union. So this is information that has been passed to Apple retail
00:12:48 ◼ ► stores from Apple and it's gotten to "I generation". This is related to the USB-C regulation that
00:12:55 ◼ ► passed in 2022 which I believed was only for new models but it seems that for whatever reason
00:13:08 ◼ ► make new devices but you can sell old devices. Maybe they don't have enough. Maybe they just
00:13:13 ◼ ► can't in it but basically this means the iPhone 14, the iPhone 14 Plus, the iPhone SE and like
00:13:20 ◼ ► Apple Keyboard, a bunch of stuff won't get updated. This makes me think maybe this is why the AirPods
00:13:27 ◼ ► Max was updated with USB-C. This is why the keyboards and trackpads have been updated with
00:13:32 ◼ ► USB-C because they were kittenlies. It's interesting it it looks like maybe it's arguable but the reason
00:13:39 ◼ ► is when when units individual units are placed in the market they must comply which is yeah I wonder
00:13:46 ◼ ► if this reading changed or if this was always it and we just had best read it but either way the
00:13:50 ◼ ► idea here is basically like I think they could import a bunch into the market and dump them
00:13:56 ◼ ► but like once the deadline happens they can't anymore. They can sell what they've got but
00:14:01 ◼ ► that's it. So it sounds like they're just exercising this and this was the plan was to just
00:14:06 ◼ ► cut it off here and they do have a new iPhone SE coming in the spring and they did replace all of
00:14:11 ◼ ► the keyboards and trackpads and mice and so you know here and AirPods and all those things so here
00:14:19 ◼ ► we are. If you enjoy this show you would like Upgrade Plus because you get longer ad-free
00:14:26 ◼ ► versions of the show each and every week and you have just a couple more days to get 20% of a new
00:14:33 ◼ ► annual membership. Go to getupgradeplus.com and use the code 2024holiday on an annual membership
00:14:39 ◼ ► and you'll get 20% off. There will also be a link in the show notes so you can do this or you can go
00:14:44 ◼ ► to giverelay.com to learn more or gift a membership to somebody else. So with Upgrade Plus you get
00:14:50 ◼ ► those longer ad-free versions of the show every week. You get tons of bonus content. I referenced
00:14:55 ◼ ► earlier backstage. Backstage is a monthly show where me and Steven talk about what's going on
00:15:03 ◼ ► Discord which you also get access to. There's tons of great stuff available for Relay members
00:15:09 ◼ ► that you can get as becoming a member of Upgrade Plus. You also help support the show which for
00:15:14 ◼ ► reasons mentioned earlier I would really love more members. That is my key thing because membership
00:15:21 ◼ ► is reliable income for us. Advertising goes up and down. It's uncertain but members, one of the
00:15:27 ◼ ► things that's incredible about Relay members is they become members and they stay members.
00:15:31 ◼ ► Our churn which is where people leave is incredibly low. In fact member for who we work with,
00:15:36 ◼ ► they're always really pleased and surprised about how low our membership churn is so I appreciate
00:15:41 ◼ ► that for our members. But what that means if you're listening to me is people who become
00:15:47 ◼ ► Relay members value that membership. It's a good deal for you. So go to getupgradeplus.com, use the
00:15:54 ◼ ► code 2024holiday and you will get 20% off an annual membership or you can sign up for a monthly
00:15:58 ◼ ► membership at full price or if you miss the deal then you will be able to pay and still get it. But
00:16:03 ◼ ► it will be worth it. In Upgrade Plus this week we will talk more about my upcoming child because I
00:16:09 ◼ ► think that'll be fun for us to talk about in a little bit more detail together today. So
00:16:13 ◼ ► getupgradeplus.com. So let's talk about Apple Intelligence and the British broadcasting company
00:16:21 ◼ ► the BBC. So the BBC have issued a complaint to Apple over an Apple Intelligence summary
00:16:26 ◼ ► that was shared on social media that shows the BBC news app saying that Luigi Mangione, the man who
00:16:34 ◼ ► shot and killed health insurance CEO Brian Thompson which I can't believe is the thing we're
00:16:38 ◼ ► talking about on this show now. It said the BBC news app preview said Luigi Mangione has shot
00:16:45 ◼ ► himself which did not happen. Now in the article that I've included which is the BBC's write-up
00:16:52 ◼ ► about this, the BBC does not share the actual headline of the article in their story that like
00:16:58 ◼ ► was was the article headline. I would like to know what that was and I couldn't find it because I was
00:17:03 ◼ ► just interested like what what did it say that the AI got mixed up with right? And it might not even
00:17:09 ◼ ► be the headline it might be the push notification text right? Yeah that's what it is but like I was
00:17:16 ◼ ► I was intrigued what it said just out of like curiosity but it didn't it didn't say that.
00:17:21 ◼ ► But nevertheless it did do that kind of truncated summary and this is an exact example of the kinds
00:17:29 ◼ ► of things that we knew we were going to see and it's I think probably pretty problematic for Apple
00:17:36 ◼ ► that it's like the BBC is this company you know it's like similarly if it was the New York Times
00:17:40 ◼ ► which I think the New York Times did have one in November but now it's shipping to everyone.
00:17:45 ◼ ► This is and so as well the BBC say that Apple declined to comment on this story and this is
00:17:51 ◼ ► the first in what will be I'm sure a long list of stories like this and I am really intrigued to see
00:17:57 ◼ ► if Apple says anything or does anything about this. Yeah it's interesting I thought was this not a
00:18:04 ◼ ► thing that we predicted and I actually looked at our draft of the ages which were about halfway
00:18:08 ◼ ► through and I predicted actually that Apple would apologize for something generated by AI which
00:18:13 ◼ ► hasn't happened yet but I mean give it time by the way if things hold now in the draft of the ages as
00:18:20 ◼ ► we're about halfway through it's looking bad for me but okay there's time there's time the upgrade
00:18:27 ◼ ► dot cards if you'd like to see the draft of the ages in case people are interested it's in there
00:18:32 ◼ ► but we're that's for 600 where we predict the future from 500 and we're only you know 42 in so
00:18:38 ◼ ► we've got time left shout out to James Thompson we're 42 in so yes what is Apple's policy about
00:18:45 ◼ ► commenting on AI generation from their software are they going to have a standard boilerplate
00:18:51 ◼ ► are they going to say nothing I mean this is the BBC like demanding you know they are complaining
00:18:57 ◼ ► anyway I don't know if they're demanding an apology but they're complaining and Apple is
00:19:01 ◼ ► declining comment so I wonder if they're if they have a strategy if silence is the strategy if
00:19:06 ◼ ► they're going to come up with boilerplate responses that are just like you know you know from time to
00:19:11 ◼ ► time Apple buys companies it'll be you know from time to time Apple's AI generation will be I don't
00:19:16 ◼ ► know something like that or and I do wonder about this or is there going to be a moment where some
00:19:24 ◼ ► executive reads this stuff and says why are we even summarizing that or if is there no way for
00:19:31 ◼ ► us to back off of summarizing something if we're lower if we lower our confidence in it or maybe
00:19:38 ◼ ► we shouldn't summarize those news headlines or I don't know what right like maybe they make a change
00:19:44 ◼ ► to kind of reduce their exposure even if it reduces the utility of this the problem is these
00:19:49 ◼ ► issues are cropping up in all of the summaries right because there's famously that summary
00:19:53 ◼ ► about the the woman who got her mom sent a text that was like oh I took that hike today almost
00:20:00 ◼ ► killed me and the summary was like mom attempted suicide or something like that and it's like
00:20:05 ◼ ► what so bad so I don't know like the problem is that there are fundamental problems with this
00:20:12 ◼ ► technology that it does hallucinate even if you tell it not to and I don't think the technology
00:20:20 ◼ ► exists wouldn't it be nice if it did to add like a scrutiny layer that looks at it and says are we
00:20:27 ◼ ► confident that this is something that would happen or are we you know are there subjects that we're
00:20:33 ◼ ► not gonna summarize and what are those words and then sometimes summary is just because that
00:20:39 ◼ ► happens now with some stuff where the I don't know if you noticed this but there was this one
00:20:43 ◼ ► conversation about how certain llms wouldn't say certain names I don't know if you saw that story
00:20:51 ◼ ► no we're like there are certain names that if if you either mention the name or if you tried to
00:20:57 ◼ ► lead it to say the name it would cause an error and they think this is because these are public
00:21:02 ◼ ► figures who either have complained or asked for their name to be stricken right you know right
00:21:08 ◼ ► to be forgotten or they've threatened lawsuits and it's this sort of like exposure of potentially
00:21:13 ◼ ► like a blacklist of items like it's like we're gonna ban all of the mentions of these people
00:21:21 ◼ ► and and that that would be a pad apple could go down but it's gonna let just lead to the us seeing
00:21:26 ◼ ► the the residue of any ban list that apple makes because they're gonna be like oh no wonder why
00:21:33 ◼ ► didn't this get summarized oh it's about somebody dying or whatever but it like I don't have a a
00:21:40 ◼ ► simple solution here because I don't think there is a simple solution it's like you it's the two
00:21:45 ◼ ► edge sword of using these models is they aren't people you know they are they are llms I wonder
00:21:54 ◼ ► in the long run if what apple might try to do is get more data which is just off the top of my head
00:22:01 ◼ ► like I wonder if they could expand the push notification protocol for example to add like
00:22:06 ◼ ► a rich layer of data that was beyond it so that it could actually like the BBC hands it a a more
00:22:12 ◼ ► complicated summary that it could use to process to make its own little headline I don't I don't
00:22:18 ◼ ► know I don't know what the right answer is here but I I've heard from like I still have my summaries
00:22:25 ◼ ► on partially because I write about this stuff but I totally sympathize with people who've just turned
00:22:29 ◼ ► them off because you basically can't trust them I mean I mostly use them as at a glance did something
00:22:36 ◼ ► happen yeah but it's true that then you need to read the individual things right you can't not
00:22:40 ◼ ► read the individual things so like I'm seeing a lot of people online especially like a blue sky
00:22:45 ◼ ► and stuff like in talking about the story and they say like nobody's asking for this feature this
00:22:50 ◼ ► summary feature and I would just be the person who defends it and say I am asking for it like
00:22:54 ◼ ► I like the notification summary features like I and I I feel like I am present in mind enough to
00:23:02 ◼ ► be able to pull these things apart right from each other but what I do do is turn it off for
00:23:08 ◼ ► certain applications if like for example podcast for overcast I turn it off overcast because it
00:23:15 ◼ ► doesn't make sense for me there but for like message conversations I find it to be very useful
00:23:20 ◼ ► to get six notifications summarized into one quick sentence of course I'm going to read them anyway
00:23:26 ◼ ► but that's the whole point even the notification of a message you see the notification in its full
00:23:31 ◼ ► text you still go to the message and read it again because that's just how we deal with notifications
00:23:35 ◼ ► you're just thinking about them differently I think that it's great that Apple offers the
00:23:39 ◼ ► ability for you to opt in and out or opt into everything and opt out certain applications you
00:23:45 ◼ ► find the ones that work for you but there's certain types of apps where they send notifications
00:23:52 ◼ ► frequently and all you really need is a quick glance at what these things are and I find it to
00:23:58 ◼ ► be personally I find it to be a very useful thing but I know why people don't like it but I think
00:24:04 ◼ ► you can kind of exert your own control over it a little bit and just have the types of apps that
00:24:10 ◼ ► you want rather than everything but I do think that there is a lot of utility in this feature
00:24:19 ◼ ► like it will coalesce yeah it'll coalesce headlines and stuff like that but the one that I really
00:24:26 ◼ ► hoped it would do and this is I wrote a piece about this at Macworld is I wanted to do a better
00:24:31 ◼ ► job processing message notifications because you know you get a chat in messages like a group
00:24:39 ◼ ► thread just pop off yep and that's where I want summaries right that's where I want my family
00:24:45 ◼ ► chat that's Lauren's whole family and there's 18 messages that's where I want a good summary
00:24:52 ◼ ► but it it doesn't do it like instead what I get is every individual message but then I look at
00:24:58 ◼ ► the notification and I get a summary and it's like I want this stuff to be more intelligent I want
00:25:03 ◼ ► this stuff especially for something like messages to be oh or any app that's spamming you like it
00:25:09 ◼ ► I feel like it does a good job with with my camera notifications right but I've not been able to
00:25:15 ◼ ► experience this with messages where what I really want is I want that it to be like oh it looks like
00:25:20 ◼ ► this thread is popping off I'm gonna not bug you about it and just put a thing give you a
00:25:27 ◼ ► notification that says this thread is popping off and it's about this and it's not subtle enough to
00:25:33 ◼ ► do that it's not smart enough to do that and so like I see a lot of utility in doing this
00:25:38 ◼ ► a lot of utility in silencing things and summarizing them but and maybe it's just my settings
00:25:43 ◼ ► but like the one place where I wanted to see it which was in that family chat where like there's
00:25:48 ◼ ► nothing and then suddenly there's 20 messages and in most places I've muted it because I just can't
00:25:55 ◼ ► but even then when I go to my lock screen I you know I get there were 17 messages and not a
00:26:01 ◼ ► summary I don't know what's going on there but yeah I agree with you I think that this is a
00:26:05 ◼ ► feature that has a lot of potential I just don't know how you handle the downside of this in a way
00:26:16 ◼ ► if you're Apple that do you just say nothing and say like from time to time the headlines in your
00:26:22 ◼ ► news headline summary are going to be wrong yeah I just I don't know like this is like a microcosm
00:26:27 ◼ ► of the problems that Apple intelligence has at large which is there is promise here but you may
00:26:34 ◼ ► turn people off of it because you didn't implement it fully enough with the first version and like
00:26:40 ◼ ► and I also think of like that's the danger Siri's not smart or in any possible way exactly they
00:26:44 ◼ ► tried to make you believe that it is but it isn't right and like so yeah I worry that that in doing
00:26:50 ◼ ► all of this and doing it the way that they have done it with the rollout that they have done
00:26:55 ◼ ► that they have ended up harming themselves for later on but maybe this is the only way you can
00:26:59 ◼ ► do something like this because you have to learn from it I don't know I will say before we move on
00:27:03 ◼ ► from this do yourself a favor and just turn off notifications for news apps like I just say this
00:27:08 ◼ ► to everyone in the world you do not need push notifications for your favorite news service in
00:27:13 ◼ ► my opinion like go to the news when you want it the news doesn't have to come to you yes yes
00:27:21 ◼ ► although again I would say there is a revamped notification system here that would allow you to
00:27:32 ◼ ► set your notification for your news to be whenever you glance there's a news summary but that it
00:27:38 ◼ ► doesn't certainly I think that pushing headlines to you is something you should the vacation center
00:27:42 ◼ ► is not a great place for news just in general no matter how you do it in my opinion I agree
00:27:48 ◼ ► other people obviously disagree and they want to get their their breaking news there I think
00:27:55 ◼ ► gonna push notification you here's the issue right there is no such thing as breaking news anymore
00:27:59 ◼ ► right every piece of new information is considered to be breaking news breaking news used to mean
00:28:06 ◼ ► something serious is going on but now everything is breaking because the term breaking has lost
00:28:12 ◼ ► like it's actually been defined it's like it's been reduced to its actual meaning which is here's
00:28:17 ◼ ► some new information but that is not what we thought it was yeah it's coming over the wire
00:28:21 ◼ ► right now yeah so absolutely no you you've got it and and also there's just a structural if you
00:28:27 ◼ ► can talk somebody like even if you are a very important news organization and you say look
00:28:33 ◼ ► we have lots of different notifications you can get from our app but one of them is high priority
00:28:38 ◼ ► it's only the most important things I'll guarantee it somebody's going to look at the metrics and say
00:28:45 ◼ ► too many people have signed up for this thing there's so many people there we really need to
00:28:51 ◼ ► promote this puzzle that we did today yes or we really need to promote the promote this recipe
00:28:56 ◼ ► that we did today and yeah somebody in their editorial group or their tech group can say no
00:29:00 ◼ ► we said that this would only be the most important stuff but I can I will guarantee you there will be
00:29:05 ◼ ► somebody who's got revenue attached to their their compensation who will override them and force
00:29:39 ◼ ► where in the world is Tim San Diego there you go last Wednesday an article went up on the UK
00:29:48 ◼ ► Apple newsroom right I think it's just on the UK Apple newsroom Apple expands UK investment and
00:29:54 ◼ ► doubles local engineering teams this is all respect to the people that put this together
00:30:01 ◼ ► an absolute puff piece where all it's doing is talking about Apple's investments over time like
00:30:07 ◼ ► it's not announcing for what I could like like it's not like oh hey we're about to double it it's
00:30:11 ◼ ► like just just breaking news breaking news to your point about what things aren't breaking news
00:30:16 ◼ ► it begins Apple today announced today there's there's your news angle its investment in the
00:30:21 ◼ ► United Kingdom has grown to exceed 18 billion pounds over the past five years we announced
00:30:26 ◼ ► today that we did a thing before double during that time yes Apple today announced that it's
00:30:31 ◼ ► been a good five years yeah where I also think it's not that they have necessarily employed new
00:30:39 ◼ ► people because they they basically made Battersea the European headquarters so I actually think they
00:30:44 ◼ ► consolidated some roles into London that maybe weren't there before but so this went up and I
00:30:50 ◼ ► was like hang on a minute something's going on here because it was it just felt like a weird
00:31:03 ◼ ► Keir Starmer our Prime Minister posts a picture with Tim Cook sitting together they're talking
00:31:10 ◼ ► for some reason the Prime Minister is advertising Apple intelligence to people as he says good to
00:31:17 ◼ ► meet Tim Cook Apple's investment in the UK and the rollout of Apple intelligence is testament to our
00:31:21 ◼ ► world-leading tech sector which I think is hilarious because it's got literally nothing to do
00:31:25 ◼ ► with us but Keir Starmer is taking credit for Apple intelligence just be sure mention mention
00:31:31 ◼ ► Apple intelligence so that's happened right so and then so it is then I'm like so the sub Mike
00:31:36 ◼ ► Mike the subtext there is it's not launching in Europe right that is that is a labor Prime Minister
00:31:43 ◼ ► making hay with a Brexit thing right but it is true it's like look at us though we've got it
00:31:48 ◼ ► and does the EU have it yet no because we are a good point a lawless you know outside the realm
00:31:56 ◼ ► we're you know we're more like the US basically is what he's saying there but fair enough and so
00:32:00 ◼ ► when I saw this I'm like oh here we go something's happening because one of the pillars of the labor
00:32:06 ◼ ► government is they are trying to get business to invest back in the UK it's like part of trying to
00:32:10 ◼ ► drive our economy and I was talking to Stephen and Federico about this because I was like trying to
00:32:16 ◼ ► piece this together I felt like Charlie from always sunny right with the string of law and Federico
00:32:21 ◼ ► said something that I thought was really interesting and he's like I bet it's I bet there's
00:32:24 ◼ ► going to be an announcement of a data center in the UK and I think something like that might be
00:32:31 ◼ ► coming that some infrastructure product project is going to be announced here now wait a second
00:32:36 ◼ ► were you talking to Stephen and Federico on Wednesday when you were recording connected is
00:32:40 ◼ ► that when you were talking to them yes because the next day yes what happened the king the king
00:32:51 ◼ ► yeah I mean uh just starting a sentence that way the storm clouds of war yeah yeah yeah we love
00:33:01 ◼ ► the king we love we love a king here on the upgrade program we love to hear about a king
00:33:06 ◼ ► this is again in the context of Mike's yarn diagram we've reached the point where the king
00:33:13 ◼ ► appears the king of England appears in the united kingdom because it's united England Scotland
00:33:18 ◼ ► Northern Ireland you yada yada but you get me Charles the third appears with who with Tim Cook
00:33:26 ◼ ► with Tim Cook so this is so this is where it continues for me where this visit appears to
00:33:35 ◼ ► be like hey so like the royal family is like hey the king is at Battersea today and he is visiting
00:33:43 ◼ ► with some local businesses that have set up this market and he's also going to meet apple and apple
00:33:51 ◼ ► have put on the biggest show they got all the employees in the hallways he's meeting with people
00:33:58 ◼ ► they unveil this plaque that commemorates the king's visit Jason something's going on and I
00:34:05 ◼ ► don't know what it is but like something has happened or is happening I'm convinced of this
00:34:10 ◼ ► that like all of these things mean something I just don't know what they are because this was
00:34:16 ◼ ► an awful lot of stuff to occur right in a couple of day period because Tim makes visits here all
00:34:23 ◼ ► the time he's always doing things we've made fun of it in the past he doesn't typically meet with
00:34:28 ◼ ► the two most powerful people in this country within a 24-hour time frame and that is what's
00:34:34 ◼ ► happened so something's yeah I something is going on or it's the we need to maybe it's like the UK
00:34:40 ◼ ► we we want them to not have a not pass something that affects us yeah or we want it we're going
00:34:47 ◼ ► to give another investment in and make an announcement so it seemed right it's it's the
00:34:52 ◼ ► politics too it's like it makes it seem like a win that apple is a friend of the UK that it's not a
00:34:57 ◼ ► scary big tech company that Keir Starmer could be like yay investment and by the way apple
00:35:02 ◼ ► intelligence but I don't believe part of that game gets that photo right without like there's
00:35:08 ◼ ► something's going on and it might not be that they make some big announcement but like I see this and
00:35:13 ◼ ► I'm like something is happening between apple and the United Kingdom which I mean I don't mind I'm
00:35:19 ◼ ► happy about that like I want investment in my country we need it and so this is great then Tim
00:35:25 ◼ ► Quakes takes quite the detour and he's dying with Donald Trump at Mar-a-Lago the next day is
00:35:31 ◼ ► reported that he's going to Mar-a-Lago and I'll say I said this on the show before right like I
00:35:37 ◼ ► seen this we've had some people write into us and they're like what does this mean look look we've
00:35:42 ◼ ► been here before all right we have he has to do this and like I understand that you don't like it
00:35:49 ◼ ► but Americans he's going to be your president in like a month Tim has to have a relationship with
00:35:55 ◼ ► him like I love the idea personally of Tim Cook deciding to shun Donald Trump I think that's so
00:36:02 ◼ ► fun right that would be great but then what happens to all of Tim's employees the thousands
00:36:08 ◼ ► and thousands of people that he is responsible for the company gets harmed and then and then
00:36:13 ◼ ► Tim Cook is replaced by the board is what will happen right and that's the that's the truth is
00:36:16 ◼ ► I know people it's very easy for people to be like well if I were CEO of Apple I wouldn't meet with
00:36:22 ◼ ► Donald Trump it's like well okay you wouldn't be CEO of Apple for very long and that that's like
00:36:28 ◼ ► that's Tim Cook's other option here is just to quit I mean that's his other option but the next
00:36:33 ◼ ► CEO will need to do it too and as we know from what happened you know during the first Trump
00:36:41 ◼ ► administration is they're playing the game it's uncomfortable but it ends up being a way for Apple
00:36:48 ◼ ► to navigate treacherous waters and get you know and maybe get relief from tariffs or other sanctions
00:36:57 ◼ ► to be viewed as an ally in terms of being a conduit to China to being supportive of Taiwan
00:37:04 ◼ ► to maybe building up chip infrastructure in the U.S. right which is which because that that's part
00:37:09 ◼ ► of the story too is things like Trump administration pretty bellicose about China but like the chips
00:37:16 ◼ ► act and TSMC building a factory in Arizona and like to build chips for Apple this is all part
00:37:23 ◼ ► of this global kind of thing and if you can also give Trump a mess a win in saying look at Apple
00:37:31 ◼ ► doing things in America even though Apple's still also doing lots of things not in America
00:37:36 ◼ ► uh you you you go by and like that's that's like again he's a CEO of a giant company this is this
00:37:43 ◼ ► is a corollary and I know we've talked about this before but it's a corollary to that whole thing
00:37:47 ◼ ► about Apple is also not a charity Apple is a profit-making company publicly owned it is all
00:37:54 ◼ ► those things the job of the CEO this is the fiduciary responsibility the CEO is to do stuff
00:37:59 ◼ ► like this and I think Tim Cook has shown that he has actually proved to be a skilled diplomat who
00:38:05 ◼ ► gets what he needs and gives what he needs to to get it without completely selling out and that is
00:38:12 ◼ ► just the he is navigating some treacherous waters that is the the storm clouds are gathering Mike
00:38:17 ◼ ► is what I'm saying and Tim Cook is you know getting his his uh what what are they called
00:38:23 ◼ ► what are rain boots called in in Britain he's getting his wellies on yeah and uh he's got his
00:38:29 ◼ ► he's got his umbrella out he's got his Brawley out I mean look as well it seems like Trump is
00:38:35 ◼ ► calling all the CEOs because there's been like I think Zuckerberg was there Sundar was there
00:38:41 ◼ ► like he's calling them all in and they're meeting with him and talking about whatever it is they're
00:38:47 ◼ ► talking about right but this is the way it has to go like if this is the scenario there is no other
00:38:55 ◼ ► way to deal with it right you can't ignore him it's just you're you're the CEO of a company this
00:39:02 ◼ ► is what you have to do and again yes it's diplomacy and trying to you know trying to make a deal I
00:39:08 ◼ ► mean that's the funny thing about this is Trump you know Trump is a deal guy that's his whole thing
00:39:13 ◼ ► like talking to businessmen first off he loves it he loves talking to businessmen because he's
00:39:17 ◼ ► rubbing shoulders with legitimate businessmen and he he feels like that makes him look good it's
00:39:21 ◼ ► like this is what's great about America is we got all these CEOs and we got all these big companies
00:39:25 ◼ ► their skepticism about big tech that they've had is a threat but at the same time there as I I said
00:39:32 ◼ ► a few weeks ago also these are huge American companies and so there's that aspect of it which
00:39:39 ◼ ► is this is American power extended around the world and that is a thing that that I think as
00:39:45 ◼ ► a U.S. president you have to view positively so all of these CEOs just have to navigate all of this
00:39:51 ◼ ► and it's do you think I'll say this I am sure that there are some of these CEOs who don't mind it and
00:40:00 ◼ ► I'm sure there are some of these CEOs who don't like it and in fact I will say knowing what I know
00:40:06 ◼ ► about Tim Cook's background I don't think he likes it but I think he knows he has to do it and I think
00:40:12 ◼ ► he's good at it and I think that that's actually important is if you can be seen by the president
00:40:19 ◼ ► of the United States as to be in this case but thinking back to 2016 to 2020 as well as an ally
00:40:28 ◼ ► as somebody you can do business with as somebody who has connections in places like in China that
00:40:37 ◼ ► are useful right like that's a good place to be is to be in that position and not be adversarial
00:40:46 ◼ ► and you know just does does Trump know that Tim Cook disagrees with him about lots of stuff
00:40:51 ◼ ► of course he does but when it comes to money and business and maybe international stuff
00:40:57 ◼ ► if you can be seen as somebody who is you know not an adversary then you're gonna you're gonna
00:41:05 ◼ ► be better off and that's what that's the game Tim Cook has has played before and is playing again
00:41:10 ◼ ► now I don't know exactly what that means about the king and Keir Starmer that is still a mystery to
00:41:15 ◼ ► be unraveled by my curly official UK yarn correspondent but on the ground will um well he's
00:41:23 ◼ ► on the ground well he's on the ground and what is on the ground on this one but yeah I'm convinced
00:41:27 ◼ ► something's happening here I just don't know what it is yet but as soon as I find out I'll follow
00:41:32 ◼ ► up on the show okay by the way the tip the tip line is open ask upgradefeedback.com you can send
00:41:40 ◼ ► in your anonymous tips we did break some news retroactively last week so yes that was pretty
00:41:45 ◼ ► funny just as an aside we were a footnote in a daring fireball article that mentioned an anonymous
00:41:49 ◼ ► thing we got about which we had forgotten about from several years ago about how the m4 or m5
00:41:56 ◼ ► ultras weren't going to happen because they had already moved on and this happened two years ago
00:42:05 ◼ ► and posted it and it was just a hilarious moment of upgrade just we're breaking news left and right
00:42:12 ◼ ► this uh this this month yep it's amazing we can't be stopped so now so send those anonymous uh tips
00:42:20 ◼ ► in the anonymous tip line is open if you so happen to hear the king and tim discusses something you
00:42:25 ◼ ► let me know you let me know oh oh man can you imagine it's like I am I am within the government
00:42:33 ◼ ► and I like the anonymous Westminster informant who's like here's what Keir Starmer is up to yep
00:42:39 ◼ ► oh love it can't wait this episode is brought to you by our friends at Squarespace the all-in-one
00:42:47 ◼ ► website platform for entrepreneurs to stand out and succeed online whether you're just getting
00:42:52 ◼ ► started on managing a growing brand you could stand out with a beautiful website engage with
00:42:56 ◼ ► your audience and sell your products services even the content that you create because Squarespace
00:43:01 ◼ ► has everything you need all in one place all on your terms with Squarespace you can make the most
00:43:07 ◼ ► of design intelligence Squarespace has combined two decades of industry leading web design expertise
00:43:13 ◼ ► with cutting edge AI technology to unlock your strongest creative potential design intelligence
00:43:24 ◼ ► tailored to their unique needs helping them craft a bespoke digital identity to use across your
00:43:29 ◼ ► entire online presence I really love what Squarespace has done here because they've been
00:43:32 ◼ ► able to take their literal decades of experience to help you get started really quickly they can
00:43:37 ◼ ► help you in understanding how your website is going to look they can help you in understanding
00:43:41 ◼ ► how your page structure is going to be like what are the things that you would need for the website
00:43:44 ◼ ► that you're building but then like all Squarespace websites is incredibly easy to go in customize and
00:43:50 ◼ ► tweak with drag and drop tools to your heart's content that is the main reason why I have been
00:43:54 ◼ ► using Squarespace for almost nearly two decades at this point because it's so easy for me to be able
00:44:00 ◼ ► to make the website look the way that I want in a way that I can understand then once you've got
00:44:05 ◼ ► everything ready to go and you're out to the world you can get discovered fast with integrated SEO
00:44:09 ◼ ► tools every Squarespace website is optimized to be indexed with meta descriptions and auto-generated
00:44:15 ◼ ► site maps and more so you show up more often to more people in global search engine results
00:44:20 ◼ ► I don't know what the right things are to make my website look best in search engines so I let
00:44:25 ◼ ► Squarespace do that for me that is just another example of the what you get by being a Squarespace
00:44:30 ◼ ► customer they stay on top of all this stuff so you don't have to but then you benefit from it
00:44:39 ◼ ► trial you can build your entire website then when you're ready to launch it to the world go
00:44:43 ◼ ► to squarespace.com/upgrade you will save 10% of your first purchase of a website or domain when
00:44:48 ◼ ► you do so that's squarespace.com/upgrade when you sign up you'll get 10% of your first purchase and
00:44:54 ◼ ► show you support for the show our thanks to Squarespace for their continued support of this
00:44:58 ◼ ► show and all of Relay. Room around up time Jason Stell. Yeehaw! Yeah! Yeah! Mark Gorman has showed
00:45:06 ◼ ► some- yeah! I watched a western movie yesterday and so I'm really feeling the the the roundup
00:45:16 ◼ ► part of it just because I was in that mood by the way as an aside one of the as it came up
00:45:22 ◼ ► the warning label on it was rated R Western Violence and Lauren and I because I my immediate
00:45:28 ◼ ► comment was oh my favorite kind of violence and Lauren and I discussed what other directional
00:45:33 ◼ ► violence we preferred she said she preferred southern violence like angry penguins and I
00:45:38 ◼ ► said my second favorite after western violence is north northwestern violence because that's
00:45:42 ◼ ► somebody trying to kill you with an airplane. Okay I like that I like that well yeehaw maybe it was
00:45:49 ◼ ► rated R for round up did you consider that? Oh for room around up rated R. Rated double R for room
00:45:56 ◼ ► around up. Yeehaw! Mark Gorman has shared some details on where Apple currently stands on foldable
00:46:02 ◼ ► devices so it appears that right now that the device that one of the devices that Apple is
00:46:08 ◼ ► working on would be an iPad that when it's unfolded would be about the size of two iPad pros
00:46:14 ◼ ► side by side. I'm assuming 11 inch iPad pros is what he's talking about. It looks like this project is targeted
00:46:21 ◼ ► for release in 2028. As you can imagine Apple's designers are working very hard to minimize screen
00:46:27 ◼ ► creases and apparently this is something they've had some breakthroughs in and Mark shares that
00:46:32 ◼ ► Mark shares that he is unsure which OS would run on this device so but this feels I'm not sure what
00:46:38 ◼ ► I think about this. Okay I want to read this paragraph okay because this is the paragraph so
00:46:44 ◼ ► Sunday morning comes and I made a mistake of launching social media before I launched my RSS
00:46:52 ◼ ► reader on Sunday morning and so I was spoiled about power on which is funny because I was like
00:46:57 ◼ ► oh boy what is Mark Gorman up to now but this is the as I read it this is the paragraph that blew
00:47:03 ◼ ► my mind. It's not yet clear what operating system the Apple computer will run. Okay that's right so
00:47:12 ◼ ► it's like an iPad but is it an iPad if he's not sure what operating system but my guess is that
00:47:19 ◼ ► it will be iPad OS or a variant of it. Well that's interesting right is there something that isn't
00:47:23 ◼ ► iPad OS but is like iPad OS that runs only on this device still a mystery. He continues I don't believe
00:47:29 ◼ ► it will be a true iPad Mac hybrid comma but the device will have elements of both what does that
00:47:38 ◼ ► mean does that mean it'll have like different ports and is it a Mac or does he truly as he says
00:47:44 ◼ ► it's not yet clear which is a very passive statement of I don't know right is what what he
00:47:51 ◼ ► really is saying there is I don't know but it will have elements of both what does that mean
00:47:57 ◼ ► he continues by the time 2028 rolls around iPad OS should be advanced enough to run Mac OS apps
00:48:04 ◼ ► to run Mac OS apps what what is that just an aside of like oh by 2028 iPad OS will just run Mac OS
00:48:13 ◼ ► apps or what does it mean I mean I could argue that it's advanced enough to run Mac OS apps now
00:48:17 ◼ ► it just doesn't but by 2028 will be even more I he continues but it also makes sense to support iPad
00:48:24 ◼ ► accessories like the Apple pencil which sure if you've got a giant screen like that you'd want to
00:48:27 ◼ ► use the Apple pencil on it I don't know what any of this means it sounds like what he's saying is
00:48:32 ◼ ► it could be an iPad it could be a Mac it could be some other variant of it I think it'll be an iPad
00:48:37 ◼ ► or some other variant of it I don't think it'll be a hybrid but by 2028 iPad OS should be able to run
00:48:43 ◼ ► Mac OS apps should I mean they should be able to run them now but they don't but by 2028 the
00:48:48 ◼ ► advancements will have happened so that they will be able to Mike I don't know what this product is
00:48:54 ◼ ► and the problem is I think Mark Gurman doesn't know either no sure because I think this is literally
00:48:59 ◼ ► not to jump ahead but I think this is literally the same device that was rumored to be a a laptop
00:49:06 ◼ ► foldable that we reported about where we felt baffled about how it could be a Mac given what
00:49:19 ◼ ► iPad like thing that you fold out that's fine but I I find it funny that Mark Gurman is sort of like
00:49:27 ◼ ► saying it could be anything essentially he wants to say it's an iPad he says it's iPad like or it's
00:49:34 ◼ ► basically an iPad but that one paragraph is so full of doubt it's like could be an iPad could
00:49:39 ◼ ► be a Mac could be a hybrid could be an iPad that runs Mac OS apps I don't know probably has Apple
00:49:45 ◼ ► Pencil support and I share his confusion about what this product is because I am also unclear
00:49:51 ◼ ► about it is it just a giant unfoldable iPad or is there more to it than that can you attach a
00:49:59 ◼ ► keyboard to it and have it be a Mac or is it just a big iPad is that doesn't have a kickstand how
00:50:04 ◼ ► does it stand up like I don't know I don't know it's it's a real mystery here Aaron Tilly and Yang
00:50:12 ◼ ► Jia at the Wall Street Journal have also published a report about Apple's foldable and ambitions they
00:50:18 ◼ ► also talk about a 19-inch folding screen which they reference would be quote intended to serve
00:50:26 ◼ ► as a laptop what is this computer what what is this what why as a laptop what does that mean
00:50:33 ◼ ► you use the bottom half of the screen as a laptop or not because Mark talks about it folds right so
00:50:37 ◼ ► it could fold to to laptop shape couldn't it sure and then you could also open it up which is why
00:50:44 ◼ ► you know as a convertible it seems interesting like look I have said for a while now that I want
00:50:50 ◼ ► Apple to try bizarre shapes of computers right I almost said form factor which I don't like
00:50:56 ◼ ► you know I wrote form factor twice in the document and deleted it today but I want weird computers I
00:51:02 ◼ ► want Apple to try weird computers I do I do and this is super weird right like what is it and
00:51:08 ◼ ► I'm sure that if they come out with this thing it's going to have a whole line of accessories and
00:51:12 ◼ ► they're going to be like this is how we expect you to use it like this and all that but like I love
00:51:15 ◼ ► the idea that they seem to be making a convertible essentially it's something that could be used as a
00:51:20 ◼ ► laptop used as a big screen is it an iPad is it a Mac not even Mark Gurman knows for sure maybe it's
00:51:26 ◼ ► both maybe this is the moment you know sometimes Apple likes to roll out major new features attached
00:51:32 ◼ ► to hardware right so the idea is we're going to hold on to trackpad support on iPad until the
00:51:38 ◼ ► Magic Keyboard comes out because then it's got a trackpad and now everybody can use trackpads
00:51:43 ◼ ► and you can pair external ones and whatever but like we didn't we don't roll it out until we've
00:51:47 ◼ ► got that thing I think that's a thing Apple does so is this the moment that Apple says oh yeah you
00:51:51 ◼ ► can run Mac OS or Mac OS apps on iPad OS is this product do they are they are they targeting this
00:51:58 ◼ ► in 2028 I don't know but I like as a laptop it doesn't make as much sense to me that seems really
00:52:09 ◼ ► weird but I don't know I don't know what this product is but I love that it's out here well
00:52:16 ◼ ► this is the issue sometimes with and I don't think his fault this is sometimes the issue with Mark
00:52:23 ◼ ► Gurman's reporting because he is so well sourced right obviously clearly he is the sheriff right
00:52:28 ◼ ► like he is the top game in town yeah he doesn't have vision into this necessarily or his people
00:52:35 ◼ ► don't know but what the point what I'm saying is we don't know right like is this comment should be
00:52:43 ◼ ► able to run Mac OS apps is that his opinion or is that something he knows like that's always the
00:52:51 ◼ ► problem with this stuff right but that is the fun in it too that reads like knowledge to me right
00:52:55 ◼ ► it reads like he knows something about iPad OS in 2028 being advanced enough to run Mac OS apps
00:53:01 ◼ ► 2028 is quite specific but but I will go back to 2028 is when he's saying this product will come
00:53:07 ◼ ► out right and I don't think he's written a story and if this was more he would have a story about
00:53:13 ◼ ► it that Apple has a plan to run Mac OS apps inside iPad OS apps and he hasn't reported that I don't
00:53:19 ◼ ► think well this might be his March report for WWDC right that he does you know he always had that big
00:53:27 ◼ ► report at some point where he's like all right here's what's coming and like this maybe isn't if
00:53:32 ◼ ► he does know this this isn't enough to to do that whole report yet maybe or maybe he's not well
00:53:36 ◼ ► enough source to put it on Bloomberg if you reverse engineer this though it's also possible that there
00:53:42 ◼ ► is a project inside Apple that he knows about that lets iPad OS run Mac apps it certainly exists
00:53:48 ◼ ► well but here's the thing so he's talked to somebody and they're like yeah we've got that
00:53:53 ◼ ► running you know it's probably going to ship in the next couple of years but it's also possible
00:53:57 ◼ ► that they're just going to pull the plug and never ship it because it's very controversial on the on
00:54:02 ◼ ► the inside and we're trying it out but we don't know and that that kind of non-committal information
00:54:08 ◼ ► this is the sort of way that it would get presented right if I'm going to reverse engineer
00:54:12 ◼ ► which is you say it should be you know that there's something going on that if they want but
00:54:17 ◼ ► there's a question of will like will they do it it'll be there if they want it to be there but it
00:54:23 ◼ ► might not be there I I do I really do wonder about that because that is quite a little bomb to drop
00:54:28 ◼ ► like that and I think the reason that's not another story is largely because he doesn't know and this
00:54:35 ◼ ► is how that that comes out is this this whole paragraph is like Mark Gurman sort of trying to
00:54:42 ◼ ► get at what he what he the uncertainty that he's hearing about what's going on here and what he
00:54:49 ◼ ► doesn't know about but it's fascinating to see that because I mean his sources are great which
00:54:55 ◼ ► which the truth is this is a this is a product that we're talking about that's you know four
00:54:58 ◼ ► years out so there's a lot of vagueness about it right there's a lot of vagueness about it
00:55:02 ◼ ► that that was the biggest disappointment to me in this report is that's a long way away
00:55:12 ◼ ► this and they do it right it could be pretty amazing and so I do want them to get it right
00:55:17 ◼ ► but that's a long way especially when Mark also talks in this report that Apple is exploring a
00:55:24 ◼ ► foldable iPhone which he wouldn't expect to see until 2026 and like if they do actually release
00:55:30 ◼ ► a foldable iPhone in 26 which I also think is too far away but nevertheless it would be even
00:55:37 ◼ ► worse that we don't get this iPad Mac thing until 28 right like you got like another two years after
00:55:43 ◼ ► foldables like begin yeah and I'll also say that the Wall Street Journal report also talks about
00:55:49 ◼ ► the iPhone and says that the plan Apple has right now is that it is an iPhone that folds inward so
00:55:56 ◼ ► kind of think more like z flip with a display that would be bigger than a 16 pro max I don't know I
00:56:03 ◼ ► don't know about that don't know about that are they going to put display on the outside I hope
00:56:06 ◼ ► so but I don't know they reference in the article that it's considered but maybe not decided upon
00:56:11 ◼ ► I don't know we'll see uh additionally in the Wall Street Journal report by Aaron and Yang
00:56:18 ◼ ► in this report they also talk about the iPhone 17 air that it will be quote ultra thin with a
00:56:24 ◼ ► simplified camera system with a starting price lower than the pro phones which is not where
00:56:30 ◼ ► I think we thought that this would go it's just literally the replacement for the plus yeah even
00:56:36 ◼ ► in terms of the price slot yeah sounds like I think I'm kind of happy to hear this because
00:56:40 ◼ ► I don't think this is the phone for me it will be really interesting but you know my concern was
00:56:47 ◼ ► like if they if they really went all out with it they could maybe try and make up for some of the
00:56:51 ◼ ► things that it's going to lose but I don't think I would want to simplify camera system and what
00:56:56 ◼ ► would definitely be worse battery life than the phone that I currently have just because it's
00:57:00 ◼ ► thin for sure you know yeah but I do still support this idea because this sounds to be potentially a
00:57:07 ◼ ► more compelling product than the plus phone because at least it's doing something different it has a
00:57:12 ◼ ► point of view and you can see people opting for it instead of the 17th yeah right yeah because it's
00:57:19 ◼ ► really thin and something else you know China going back to Mark Gurman he reported in power on
00:57:26 ◼ ► that apple is redesigning the magic mouse saying that they are quote aiming to devise something
00:57:32 ◼ ► that better fits the modern era and that apple is looking to create something more relevant while
00:57:37 ◼ ► also fixing long-standing complaints of course the way it is charged I find this interesting because
00:57:46 ◼ ► I just I think we spoke about this on the show before I just assumed that the magic mouse would
00:57:51 ◼ ► just go away and that was the end of apple's time with mice well your anti-mouse sentiments are not
00:57:59 ◼ ► shared at apple right now right but the thing is that good mice like the logitech mx master 3s that
00:58:06 ◼ ► I use right now they are best when they are most ergonomic and the the style of ergonomic design
00:58:16 ◼ ► that I think is required for mice is not really apple's style okay let me let me paint you a
00:58:22 ◼ ► picture because I was thinking about this too and I think this also goes back to our previous
00:58:26 ◼ ► statement about uh USB-C in the EU that like everybody got all upset that the magic mouse
00:58:32 ◼ ► didn't change but that was that was a port swap that's all they were trying to do there they
00:58:35 ◼ ► weren't trying to redesign that thing and and they haven't and that's fine here's let me pay my my
00:58:41 ◼ ► word picture for you here which is the last two times I've had a briefing about air pods
00:58:47 ◼ ► apple has boasted about all the work they've done to get biometric data about people's ears
00:58:57 ◼ ► so that they can fit they can build this design that is kind of if you look at have you ever
00:59:02 ◼ ► really looked at an air pod mic they look kind of weird I think but they look kind of weird and the
00:59:07 ◼ ► reason they look weird is they're trying to create a shape that is kind of conducive to the most ear
00:59:16 ◼ ► shapes around in the world of of people and they've said like their first thing was an all
00:59:22 ◼ ► one size fits all that was like just round and they realized that didn't fit a lot of ears so
00:59:26 ◼ ► they made shape changes and then they did it again with this latest version they said that they
00:59:31 ◼ ► changed the shape again based on even more data I asked them about this because I thought it was
00:59:35 ◼ ► compelling the first time when they said you know I got the sense they didn't say this but I really
00:59:39 ◼ ► got the sense that they had just used it people at apple had used it and were like yes it feels good
00:59:45 ◼ ► and that in the world people's ears are not like being represented inside apple like that there's
00:59:51 ◼ ► a broader range of ear shapes out there I say all of this to say I could totally see apple do a new
00:59:57 ◼ ► mouse that's shaped a little weird that apple thinks is like the best ergonomics for the
01:00:04 ◼ ► widest range of people which is not to say it will be like a very specific niche ergonomic mouse
01:00:12 ◼ ► but that they will boast about the ergonomics and the research they did and german suggest this when
01:00:17 ◼ ► he talks about it being ergonomic and that and that they will but it'll be like air pods not
01:00:22 ◼ ► everybody's gonna like it yeah but it will be something that they'll be able to claim is going
01:00:27 ◼ ► to be better for mouse users in general I could totally see them doing that a thing that's sort of
01:00:34 ◼ ► like a mouse but shaped a little bit strangely you grip it a little bit weirdly but it's more
01:00:38 ◼ ► modern I mean they want it to be stylish but they also want it to be you know be able to make some
01:00:43 ◼ ► ergonomic claims I totally can see that story being one that they would tell and finally apple
01:00:49 ◼ ► has made progress on the hypertension detection for the apple watch so rather than a system that
01:00:55 ◼ ► would be able to give you a blood pressure reading on demand say like the ecg on the on the apple
01:01:01 ◼ ► watch this system would warn you of hypertension which is a state of abnormally high blood pressure
01:01:07 ◼ ► and encourage you to have a traditional blood pressure test so this would be more warning thing
01:01:12 ◼ ► like the sinus like so you know you've got like a heart event or if you have sleep apnea you know
01:01:19 ◼ ► like the system can be like hey you should take a look at this and then go and get an actual blood
01:01:24 ◼ ► pressure test done but yeah another another thing that could potentially be coming to the apple
01:01:34 ◼ ► b-tails jason we don't have anything to say on this but as we are recording ios 18.3 is out
01:01:43 ◼ ► it never ends ios 18.3 is out now I am installing it as we speak maybe we'll have something to talk
01:01:51 ◼ ► well we will be able to be talking about this I don't know late probably next year now right
01:01:55 ◼ ► because I guess this is something worth saying next week is the holiday special then it's the
01:02:00 ◼ ► upgrade ease and then we'll be back to regular schedule programming in january january 6th but
01:02:06 ◼ ► i'm expecting in point three more apple intelligence stuff would be the expectation so we'll see here's
01:02:13 ◼ ► my guess i haven't gotten any briefings from this from apple about this yeah which leads me to
01:02:17 ◼ ► believe that maybe it doesn't have any major apple intelligence features or at least not yet because
01:02:21 ◼ ► that's the other thing they could do right they could roll that out in a later beta i think maybe
01:02:26 ◼ ► they just wanted to get this beta out the door to start the beta process but look everybody's going
01:02:30 ◼ ► to be going on vacation and and stuff at apple too for the holiday break yeah so i think i think this
01:02:37 ◼ ► might be more placeholdery than that but we'll see and we will catch you up if there's anything
01:02:41 ◼ ► to be caught up in january this episode is brought to you by our friends at fitbod if you're looking
01:02:50 ◼ ► to change your fitness level and maybe now is the time of year that you might think of it hey maybe
01:02:54 ◼ ► you're thinking of a year of health fitbod is a great place to get started fitbod is an easy and
01:02:59 ◼ ► affordable way to build a fitness plan that is made just for you because everybody has their
01:03:04 ◼ ► own path with personal fitness fitbod makes sure that they customize things to suit you perfectly
01:03:09 ◼ ► it will adapt as you improve so every workout remains challenging pushing you to make the
01:03:14 ◼ ► progress that you're looking for a workout program works best when it is tailored to meet you where
01:03:20 ◼ ► you are your body your experience your environment your goals that's when you'll get the best results
01:03:25 ◼ ► so fitbod takes all of that and they store it in your fitbod gym profile fitbod will then track
01:03:30 ◼ ► your muscle recovery so you can avoid burnout and keep up your momentum and it builds the best
01:03:35 ◼ ► possible workout by combining ai with exercise science they have analyzed billions of data points
01:03:40 ◼ ► that have been fine-tuned by certified personal trainers fitbod wants to make sure that they're
01:03:45 ◼ ► mixing up your workouts for you to keep them fun and engaging but also to design that well-balanced
01:03:52 ◼ ► workout routine because your muscles work best when they're working together overworking some
01:03:58 ◼ ► or underworking others will negatively impact your results so they mix up your workouts with
01:04:02 ◼ ► new exercises rep schemes supersets and circuits and when you're learning these new exercises you
01:04:07 ◼ ► can learn them the right way thanks to more than 1000 demonstration videos their app is really easy
01:04:12 ◼ ► to use you can stay informed to tracking charts weekly reports and sharing cards so you can keep
01:04:17 ◼ ► track of your personal achievements and personal bests but also share them with friends and family
01:04:21 ◼ ► too i really love how fitbod integrates with my apple watch so when i'm doing my workouts i can
01:04:26 ◼ ► see what's coming up and i can do the workout and advance it but i can go to my phone if i want to
01:04:30 ◼ ► watch a video because it's a new workout it also integrates with your wearis smartwatch and other
01:04:34 ◼ ► apps you might use like strava fitbit and apple health personalized training of this quality can
01:04:39 ◼ ► be expensive but fitbod is just $12.99 a month or $79.99 a year but you can get 25% off your
01:04:45 ◼ ► membership by signing up at fitbod.me/upgrade so go now and get your customized fitness plan at
01:04:51 ◼ ► f-i-t-b-o-d.me/upgrade that is fitbod.me/upgrade for 25% of your membership thanks to fitbod for
01:04:59 ◼ ► their continued support of this show and relay it's time for some ask upgrade questions
01:05:07 ◼ ► oh dramatic i loved it will says i loved hearing about jason's recent switch to an all laptop
01:05:16 ◼ ► lifestyle and i'm curious if and how this could impact backups obviously iCloud backups would work
01:05:23 ◼ ► but do you use time machine or super duper or backblaze or anything like that and does the
01:05:28 ◼ ► machine not being always turned on and plugged in to an external storage limit the usefulness of
01:05:34 ◼ ► these backups i'm still working on it but i use time machine to my server and that happens whether
01:05:41 ◼ ► it's awake or not so that one's fine i have been using carbon copy cloner and that will probably
01:05:52 ◼ ► continue because what i do is i have it attached and then at a time during the day it clones and
01:06:00 ◼ ► then it ejects the disc basically it just unmounts the disc so i figure that unless i happen to pull
01:06:07 ◼ ► it the computer off in the middle of a clone it will uh continue to do that i probably will
01:06:14 ◼ ► position a different disc at both places i work okay so that i've got two clones going on yeah
01:06:22 ◼ ► but um i haven't figured that one out quite yet but yeah that will be the end result is that in
01:06:28 ◼ ► addition to time machine uh and i have backblaze running on my server but not on my actual computer
01:06:34 ◼ ► but i do have it backing up the files on my server um so that's that's the answer is time machine plus
01:06:40 ◼ ► the clone does does that back up time machine on the server to backblaze does that work i
01:06:49 ◼ ► don't know i should check that could be interesting that one's a mystery also by the way yes i for
01:06:54 ◼ ► those who are asking i am i am on the macbook pro docked at my desk in the garage right now
01:07:00 ◼ ► how are you feeling about it so far uh i am learning about all of the edge cases like this
01:07:09 ◼ ► question from will that now come up where like here's an example i do podcasts in both places
01:07:16 ◼ ► i have different microphones in both places right well audio hijack doesn't like that doesn't like
01:07:22 ◼ ► that audio hijack doesn't have the ability to say it use this microphone or if not use this
01:07:31 ◼ ► time you start saying i'm one of the microphones in there and i don't want to do that so i i have
01:07:35 ◼ ► had to struggle with like all of these little details of how does this work and when does the
01:07:40 ◼ ► power shut off and all that stuff because you could set it as default audio input but then
01:07:46 ◼ ► you've got to trust mac os to set it correctly which i would not right well i and it's not going
01:07:53 ◼ ► to change my default audio input uh from one microphone to another it's not going to do that
01:07:58 ◼ ► and also there's output right because i also listen and i i this is a detail that i think a
01:08:03 ◼ ► lot of people miss is i listen to our conversation and headphones attached to my interface because i
01:08:08 ◼ ► can also hear my own voice and that's very important i don't use these headphones to listen
01:08:12 ◼ ► to any other sound on my system so i can't set my default audio output to my usb interface that
01:08:19 ◼ ► doesn't make any sense and i'm not moving all of my microphones from room to room that's stupid
01:08:26 ◼ ► i would never do that the whole point here is just the laptop and i have the two setups i don't need
01:08:31 ◼ ► to move my microphones i have the two setups so ends up being things like i what i realize is i
01:08:37 ◼ ► have two different stream decks and stream decks don't sync uh and so i just have the button i
01:08:43 ◼ ► actually i found a uh i found a shell script that you can run that will list all of your usb devices
01:08:50 ◼ ► that are attached to your system and so my shortcuts have been amended to basically say
01:08:54 ◼ ► if this one is there uh this is the name of the audio hijack session to run and if this other one
01:09:03 ◼ ► is there run this other audio hijack session you would have separate set like audio hijack setups
01:09:09 ◼ ► i was thinking i could have different automations on my buttons on my stream deck but i what i
01:09:13 ◼ ► decided to do actually is just have duplicates of my audio hijack setup set to the different
01:09:19 ◼ ► input devices and then the shortcut that i that fires when i press record sees which mic is
01:09:27 ◼ ► attached and runs the appropriate thing now i also did a feature request to rogue amoeba saying
01:09:32 ◼ ► you should probably have like a chain of input devices that are allowed so it's like use a and
01:09:38 ◼ ► if a is not there use b and then if you can't find one then give me that error that you like to give
01:09:44 ◼ ► me that you can't find it that would be uh nice but i'm not gonna you know i'm not gonna wait for
01:09:52 ◼ ► that so that but this is my point is it's stuff like this now that are coming up which is it's the
01:09:58 ◼ ► oh i can move my computer between setups but the the the accessories are different the setup is a
01:10:05 ◼ ► little different how do i deal with that that's the stuff i'm grappling with now but otherwise
01:10:11 ◼ ► i mean it's been pretty great i mean the nice thing is i add things on the computer in the back
01:10:17 ◼ ► and then i move the computer out here and it's the same computer so all those things are still there
01:10:21 ◼ ► that is fantastic but there's a lot more uh a lot more yet to do i guess i would say i just use back
01:10:28 ◼ ► players and don't think about it that's me oh yeah in terms of backup sure i just don't want to i mean
01:10:35 ◼ ► i'm not sure i need to do that all my super important stuff is backed up so many different
01:10:40 ◼ ► ways now including from the server via backblaze that that's what i yeah i'm doing but i don't just
01:10:46 ◼ ► i i've got my time machine and i've got my uh clones and i'm happy with that well my weird thing
01:10:52 ◼ ► is back plays in dropbox because i save literally every file in dropbox and so almost everything
01:10:57 ◼ ► that i have is either in dropbox or icloud it really is just the like the the clones are really
01:11:02 ◼ ► there and even the time machine they're really there for a quick for convenience sake time machine
01:11:08 ◼ ► is there so i can roll back to a file earlier like yesterday if i make a mistake and uh the clone is
01:11:14 ◼ ► there in fact to get to this computer state now um my migration from the max studio stalled out
01:11:22 ◼ ► and uh but my migration from the clone did not so i just use the clone of my max studio to migrate
01:11:29 ◼ ► to the new laptop so it's like for convenience sake more than anything else so i can save all
01:11:34 ◼ ► my preferences and stuff like that but like my important files are on or in the cloud somewhere
01:11:41 ◼ ► probably in multiple places plus in multiple backups etc etc and and i do also i mean i do
01:11:47 ◼ ► also have time a time machine drive attached to the computer that i'm talking to you from right now
01:11:51 ◼ ► that's nice and so even though i so it's like i save everything in dropbox so dropbox is on
01:11:58 ◼ ► backups and then backblaze is backing up my dropbox and then i have time machine also but
01:12:05 ◼ ► you know so like it's distributed in a way so i have it if i ever need it eric says if either of
01:12:12 ◼ ► you were offered a job at apple doing what you do best and didn't have to move would you take it
01:12:17 ◼ ► you'd have to give up your current businesses and go radio silent as a public person on the internet
01:12:22 ◼ ► this is just a version of that dodgers question honestly which is uh if they paid you would you
01:12:30 ◼ ► be a dodger fan it's like everybody's got a price uh i will also say that several of my colleagues
01:12:35 ◼ ► at macworld over the years went to apple and went radio silent at least on you actually don't go
01:12:41 ◼ ► radio silent as a public person but you do go radio silent for technology and things right like
01:12:48 ◼ ► i mean that's gotten better over time like it used to be like no you never speak you don't speak
01:12:53 ◼ ► anymore that's that's right it is it's it's better than it was but it's still true that you you're
01:12:59 ◼ ► giving all that up like chris breen who just retired congrats um but he went to apple that's
01:13:04 ◼ ► the upgrade theme music oliva music exactly um and he could still do that but um but he uh he had to
01:13:14 ◼ ► he was a person on the internet who had opinions about tech and all of that he set aside to go work
01:13:20 ◼ ► inside at apple and that's what i would say is um everybody's got a price i don't know what my price
01:13:28 ◼ ► would be to give it all up and go on the inside it would probably be pretty high because i feel
01:13:32 ◼ ► like once i give it all up there's no going back at least not easily because the damage will be
01:13:37 ◼ ► done i'll have to shut everything down so it would have to be a lot and i i was thinking about this
01:13:48 ◼ ► uh free agents podcast back in the day but i'll just i'll do a quick version of it here which is
01:14:02 ◼ ► was pitching them on a job where they would get an editorial he was a designer on the homepage of
01:14:09 ◼ ► amazon and he said we need editorial for the homepage of amazon we need somebody who is looking
01:14:15 ◼ ► at what we're doing from an editorial and content standpoint to manage it and i know just the guy
01:14:21 ◼ ► and that was me and he set it up and amazon recruiters like set up a flight to seattle and
01:14:29 ◼ ► for me to be interviewed and all of these things and the day before the flight they contacted me
01:14:36 ◼ ► and said we've decided not to do this i was like that's fine like okay uh very funny that you got
01:14:42 ◼ ► to this point and then decided it but i think they rethought it or some inter i don't know what the
01:14:46 ◼ ► internal politics of it are but i was willing to talk to them because amazon and that sounds like
01:14:52 ◼ ► a huge interesting job and it was early on in my time but here's the thing one of the things i had
01:14:58 ◼ ► to do in that period where there were while i was being an independent there were also people coming
01:15:03 ◼ ► to me with job offers and i kept thinking you know i'm new to this is this going to last am i going to
01:15:10 ◼ ► be able to make a living at the very least i need to listen to the job offers but i had been doing
01:15:16 ◼ ► it long enough that i knew how much money i was making and that i had basically replaced my income
01:15:27 ◼ ► and so i started to think of what they would have to pay me i actually because i say everybody's
01:15:33 ◼ ► got a price i started to think what would you have to pay me for me to as eric's scenario
01:15:39 ◼ ► suggests to stay at my house but work somewhere else and do i have to commute like to apple you
01:15:47 ◼ ► know do i have to go ride on a bus for an hour and a half every day and each way like i right
01:15:53 ◼ ► like that's part of it too so do i do i work from home do i have to commute do i have to move do i
01:15:58 ◼ ► have to move out of the region these are all they all change the price right but what i realize the
01:16:03 ◼ ► most important insight of that amazon thing is that i started to think like if they offer me
01:16:09 ◼ ► this job what would it take for me to move to seattle and drop all my stuff and just do this job
01:16:19 ◼ ► and it was a great exercise because i looked at what i make and i look at our life and i look at
01:16:24 ◼ ► at the time it was like in my kids and all of that and i realized that it was the amount of money
01:16:33 ◼ ► people would need to pay me in order to stop what i'm doing which i like and when it's just working
01:16:39 ◼ ► perfectly fine to do something else is always going to be more than anybody should pay me
01:16:47 ◼ ► yes if that makes any sense it's like the amount of money you would need to pay me to stop doing
01:16:52 ◼ ► what i'm doing is not money you should pay me because i'm not worth it right like it would
01:16:57 ◼ ► it would need to be in the scenario of what if they paid you 150 million dollars to be a dodger
01:17:02 ◼ ► fan it would need it's a fun thing to think about but in reality anybody who would be willing to pay
01:17:08 ◼ ► that to me is not thinking straight right like it it doesn't make sense and it's it's mostly about
01:17:15 ◼ ► me now if my if my business was falling apart and i didn't have enough money to support myself and
01:17:21 ◼ ► somebody can well obviously my price is lower then but currently and certainly was the case when i
01:17:27 ◼ ► was a year in or whatever it was just a fun realization so everybody does have a price but
01:17:33 ◼ ► i would say i don't expect anybody this is why i've stopped thinking about it at all is this is
01:17:39 ◼ ► the true reason why i'm unhirable now not only have i done 10 years of being my own boss which
01:17:46 ◼ ► like i'm not i'm sorry i'm not receptive to not being in charge at this point that's just the
01:17:53 ◼ ► truth of it is i have my opinions and and and i i collaborate with people all the time we do it here
01:17:59 ◼ ► but like to just go and be a cog in the corporate wheel at this point like you had to be somewhere
01:18:04 ◼ ► at a certain time be at this meeting that you don't want to go to like when you have no control
01:18:09 ◼ ► over it that kind of stuff is difficult right i'd rather not right i'd rather not and i don't need
01:18:15 ◼ ► to and i can't envision a price that is rational that you would pay and so i realize now this is
01:18:21 ◼ ► why i think i'm essentially unhirable at this point in my career is is that is there's no job
01:18:28 ◼ ► that makes sense that makes sense that would pay me enough for me to take it yep and that's a and
01:18:35 ◼ ► i want to be clear here i'm not boasting about this this is a was a very important personal
01:18:40 ◼ ► insight and i feel very fortunate to be able to make it but right and it could change you know if
01:18:45 ◼ ► my business falls apart great yeah in the next five years i could be in the point where i'm like
01:18:49 ◼ ► huh maybe doing what chris breen did is a good idea because and i think chris was burned out i
01:18:56 ◼ ► mean chris yeah anyway i i'm not and there's no judgment here but it's like maybe a retirement
01:19:00 ◼ ► job where i work there until i retire and they pay me fine and i do and i'm i'm toiling in obscurity
01:19:06 ◼ ► is what is right for me at the time but right now it doesn't make any sense so the answer is to eric
01:19:11 ◼ ► is there everyone has a price but i can tell you in my previous dealings with apple where they have
01:19:18 ◼ ► recruited me before and after i worked at idg or i mean while i worked at idg and after i left i
01:19:23 ◼ ► talked to apple people about their jobs and when it comes to what they'd pay me for the job that
01:19:29 ◼ ► they were thinking of for me like i i gave them a figure i actually did give them a figure and
01:19:34 ◼ ► they're like whoa that's out of our price range but we do have like stock options it's like it
01:19:39 ◼ ► the answer was that even apple could not pay me what i wanted them to pay me so it's unlikely it
01:19:47 ◼ ► would it would take like an executive just like oh man we really want that jason energy it's the
01:19:51 ◼ ► only person at any cost or or to take them off the board there's that scenario too you want to
01:19:57 ◼ ► talk about your conspiracy theory yarn board that's like how much does it pay for jason to not i i
01:20:03 ◼ ► think the reverse is actually true which is that that apple would rather that i i'd be out here
01:20:08 ◼ ► doing what i'm doing than to have me stop it yeah but um anyway so that's the answer is look i am
01:20:16 ◼ ► sure that there is a price that i would be happy to walk away from everything i do because it would
01:20:21 ◼ ► be life-changing money but i don't expect that to exist anywhere except in the realm of fantasy
01:20:26 ◼ ► what about you mike it's not about the money for me um it's about the work because like if we
01:20:33 ◼ ► imagine a scenario it's like apple comes to me now and they're like hey you know that thing you've
01:20:38 ◼ ► been building for like the last 10 years throw it away now and come work for us i have too much
01:20:45 ◼ ► pride in what we've done to let go of that yeah so they would have to so like that i don't i actually
01:20:51 ◼ ► guarantee don't think right there's an amount of money that again would be even close to the realm
01:20:58 ◼ ► of realistic they're even past like realistic level one right it really is for me what is the
01:21:06 ◼ ► work because you're talking about throwing away what you built and are they going to give i would
01:21:11 ◼ ► say also unrealistic is well i'm going to need you can pay me this or you can pay me less but you
01:21:17 ◼ ► have to give me a five-year contract right like that theoretical dodger contract right um and
01:21:22 ◼ ► nobody's going to do that but it's like well i'm not going to shut down my businesses that i've
01:21:26 ◼ ► spent 10 years building to go do a thing that may or may not last a year right like no i'm right
01:21:34 ◼ ► right because you built this thing and you would have to walk away from it but but there are jobs
01:21:37 ◼ ► though like there are jobs that if apple came and said might come do this job i i think i would find
01:21:43 ◼ ► it very very hard to turn them down but they're jobs that they would not give me right they're
01:21:48 ◼ ► jobs that that like they would not give to me but like for for example i don't know what should like
01:21:54 ◼ ► you know i would want to work in the the top design team we're not going to give you that job
01:21:59 ◼ ► because i have no skills in that right like i'm not skilled enough for that or i want to be very
01:22:03 ◼ ► senior at product marketing so they're not going to give me that but like these are the things where
01:22:08 ◼ ► if somebody at apple came to me and said no you're the you're the only one we need we need just your
01:22:16 ◼ ► brain no one else's brain will do the job then then i would i would consider it right but like
01:22:25 ◼ ► and yet in another way it is perfectly accurate because what we're describing those jobs we need
01:22:31 ◼ ► your brain absolutely it has to be your brain those are the jobs we've built for ourselves
01:22:36 ◼ ► yeah exactly yeah yeah so so we're already there yeah they're already there hey mike we need
01:22:42 ◼ ► notebooks but it's not the ones you think you know like we need we need the other notebooks
01:22:47 ◼ ► only you can do it i want to be clear we're both very lucky to have ended up here we also worked
01:22:52 ◼ ► really hard and yeah uh and took risks and you know all of those things too it's all and and
01:22:59 ◼ ► not everybody as i used to say on free agents all the time uh not everybody can do the kinds of jobs
01:23:06 ◼ ► we do in the sense that like it's really hard you have to supply all of the all of the responsibility
01:23:13 ◼ ► like i talked to some people who are like i could never do it if i was my own boss and it's like
01:23:17 ◼ ► some people can't and and we are fortunate to be able to do that and have our projects and
01:23:23 ◼ ► you know and trust me i'm sure you feel this way too i absolutely have those days where i'm
01:23:28 ◼ ► staring at the computer i'm like and it's like there's no boss to set a deadline i have to do it
01:23:33 ◼ ► i just have to do it because it's my livelihood well i mean similarly i have the days where i'm
01:23:39 ◼ ► like man i wished i was just on a salary like that i didn't have to worry about money right now like
01:23:47 ◼ ► you know like i just wished that i knew what my salary was next month now the realistic part of
01:23:53 ◼ ► that is you can always be fired right and like and i know that so like really nobody ever feels
01:23:57 ◼ ► comfortable yeah and in a way classic i at least have a a sense of agency in that like i can do
01:24:05 ◼ ► things you know and but like which is much harder if like you do not have the control to move your
01:24:11 ◼ ► business forward but it's failing exactly exactly yes there's there's the the regular gig this is
01:24:17 ◼ ► i always thought about this um in the context of john seracusa who was sort of reluctant to leave
01:24:21 ◼ ► his regular gig for a long time was a regular gig is secure in a sense because you don't have
01:24:29 ◼ ► to worry about it they just pay you it until they stop paying you and that's the thing is that what
01:24:34 ◼ ► you're really what you really are is insulated from the vagaries of month to month because
01:24:42 ◼ ► they're going to give you your salary regardless whereas if it's your own business you are not
01:24:47 ◼ ► insulated from that and if the money doesn't come in you don't get paid and that's just how that
01:24:53 ◼ ► works and and so it's just different but look everybody's different we're very fortunate to
01:24:57 ◼ ► be able to do this and yes if you're a you know billionaire who wants to just set up jason and mike
01:25:03 ◼ ► llc and give us a lot of money uh we'll talk yeah if if you're a billionaire that would like to buy
01:25:12 ◼ ► relay or upgrade you know like hey if you're a goal hanger and you want and you want sure the
01:25:17 ◼ ► rest is technology you just you just call us we're here call us but what i would say is it's
01:25:24 ◼ ► you know i i'm i'm always if somebody approached me and said jason i want to talk about this job
01:25:31 ◼ ► i'll talk but i no longer feel like there's any uh likelihood that it's going to lead anywhere
01:25:40 ◼ ► yeah but i you know i i will i'm always gonna listen but it's not i think it's not realistic
01:25:48 ◼ ► at this point which is fine yeah it's a great question thank you eric for sending that one in
01:25:52 ◼ ► if you would like to send in a question of your own you can always go to upgradefeedback.com you
01:25:58 ◼ ► can send us your ask upgrade questions or also your feedback or your follow-up at any time you
01:26:03 ◼ ► can check out jason's work at sixcolors.com and you can hear his podcasts at the incomparable and
01:26:08 ◼ ► here on relay you can listen to me here on relay too and check out my work at cortexbrand.com
01:26:13 ◼ ► you can follow us on social media we're both on mastodon blue sky and threads i'm more on threads
01:26:19 ◼ ► than jason is but you know you can you can at least follow in there if you if you want to i've
01:26:24 ◼ ► been enjoying blue sky i you know not for just been enjoying it it's been the one i've been
01:26:29 ◼ ► checking first i had a post that went viral on blue sky oh did you what was it what was it about
01:26:35 ◼ ► um the the cal bears hired as an offensive consultant the former coach at washington state
01:26:45 ◼ ► who was fired for refusing to comply with their vaccination policy okay and my post was next year's
01:26:56 ◼ ► cal offense is gonna be great until the polio sets in and very slowly it gained speed and people
01:27:07 ◼ ► retweeted it or reposted it or whatever you do and uh i thought that was amusing to see a very slow
01:27:13 ◼ ► but viral spread of something on blue sky i hadn't had that happen before so that made me laugh
01:27:18 ◼ ► uh you can watch clips of this show on tik tok instagram and youtube or at upgrade relay
01:27:24 ◼ ► thank you to our members who support us of upgrade plus and thank you to our sponsors fitbod and