Upgrade

00:00:00 ◼   ► [Music]

00:00:08 ◼   ► From Relay, this is Upgrade episode 536 for November 4th, 2024. Today's show is brought to you by DeleteMe, Factor, and ExpressVPN.

00:00:20 ◼   ► My name is Mike Hurley and I had the pleasure of being joined by Jason Snell. Hi, Jason!

00:00:25 ◼   ► Hi, Mike Hurley. Yet another week goes by, another one of these wild, full, Apple things.

00:00:33 ◼   ► It actually feels like it's been longer than a week since we spoke last because last week was so weird and wild.

00:00:40 ◼   ► So many things happening. I think it's really nice. Like, Upgrade got to talk about announcements,

00:00:46 ◼   ► and ATP got to talk about announcements, and connected, and twit, MacBreak Weekly, we got to talk about different announcements.

00:00:52 ◼   ► Every podcast was different last week because there was more information. Yeah, that's true. Every day.

00:00:57 ◼   ► That's true. That's true. If you are a podcast junkie, you got something quite unique, which was...

00:01:04 ◼   ► Each show didn't know where the rest of the week was going to go. But now we're back around again.

00:01:08 ◼   ► That week is done, and so we can now wrap up what we didn't talk about in today's episode.

00:01:12 ◼   ► But first, we must address a Snell Talk question as we always do. I would like to thank Ammar for writing this in.

00:01:19 ◼   ► When you're reading an article, Jason, or a review from a renowned journalist or somebody that you know,

00:01:24 ◼   ► do you read it in their voice or your own voice?

00:01:27 ◼   ► Okay, the truth is I very rarely am subvocalizing when I'm reading. I just read the words.

00:01:35 ◼   ► Ah, lucky.

00:01:37 ◼   ► So, it does sometimes happen, but really it's just in, I guess you would say, it starts in my voice and then just disappears into reading mode,

00:01:48 ◼   ► and I'm not, you know, it's not... When I read an article, I'm not envisioning it as a podcast. I'm just reading it as an article.

00:01:55 ◼   ► There are occasionally exceptions to that, but for the most part, that's the truth of it. Sorry to be boring about it, but that's the truth of it.

00:02:03 ◼   ► No, but that is good because that's interesting. You know, see, I can't read without subvocalizing.

00:02:10 ◼   ► I wish I wasn't this way, but I am this way. And so if I do read an article from somebody that I know, I do hear their voice.

00:02:16 ◼   ► So when I read six colors, I hear you. So I do have to check the bio line just to make sure it's not Dan.

00:02:22 ◼   ► Because I will check and I'll read it in Dan's voice, you know?

00:02:24 ◼   ► Okay, good, good, good. That's good.

00:02:26 ◼   ► Because I would feel like that's not fair to Dan if I read it in yours.

00:02:28 ◼   ► The podcast in your mind. Yeah.

00:02:30 ◼   ► So it specifically works for me. Like I resonate as a reader much more to writers who have a personality in their writing.

00:02:39 ◼   ► Like, I'm not a big fan of like a house, full house style, a website or something. I want to be able to read in the voices that I know, you know?

00:02:52 ◼   ► Oh, absolutely.

00:02:52 ◼   ► That's what I gravitate towards. But not everybody does that, but I like that.

00:02:56 ◼   ► And I think that's the benefit too of like, there being podcasts and stuff, right? Because I get to hear these people's voices a lot and how I know they would turn a phrase, things like that.

00:03:05 ◼   ► So I do like that.

00:03:07 ◼   ► I do like that.

00:03:08 ◼   ► If you would like to send in a question of your own to help us start a future episode of the show, just write in with a Snortalk question at upgradefeedback.com.

00:03:16 ◼   ► Thank you to everybody that does.

00:03:18 ◼   ► We have a couple of items of follow up to get to today.

00:03:21 ◼   ► We have the anonymous Upgrading who writes in with some interesting tidbits every now and then, has written in with a little tidbit for us today, Jason.

00:03:30 ◼   ► They say, "I have news on screen improvements for the next generation of the M3 iPad Air.

00:03:36 ◼   ► Apple is working on a higher refresh rate LCD display with a new liquid motion panel fixer around 90 hertz.

00:03:42 ◼   ► They're also working on expanding it to other models or products like a 24 inch iMac and an Xchange Studio display."

00:03:48 ◼   ► So this is in reference to our conversation about the iPad Mini and kind of about the fact that we want it to be a 90 hertz display.

00:03:55 ◼   ► This person has written in to tell us that there is in the works a 90 hertz kind of like base display.

00:04:01 ◼   ► Ah, yes.

00:04:02 ◼   ► And what I take from this is that Apple is working to the point that I want, which is where ProMotion is not available, it will be a 90 hertz LCD display.

00:04:12 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:04:13 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:04:13 ◼   ► No, that makes sense.

00:04:14 ◼   ► That's good.

00:04:14 ◼   ► That's good news.

00:04:15 ◼   ► That's really good news.

00:04:16 ◼   ► That was my real takeaway from my iPad Mini review is I was looking for jelly scrolling and what I found is stuttery low frame rate scrolling because my iPad Pro that I use every day has promotion and my iPhone has promotion.

00:04:30 ◼   ► So I'm really in that context of an iPad especially I'm used to it and it wasn't there.

00:04:35 ◼   ► It's got some other feedback from an anonymous reader that I will read.

00:04:41 ◼   ► It's gonna be great.

00:04:42 ◼   ► You want me to read this one for you?

00:04:44 ◼   ► You know what?

00:04:45 ◼   ► Why don't you?

00:04:46 ◼   ► All right.

00:04:47 ◼   ► Anonymous says, "I think it's high time you guys get off your high horse.

00:04:52 ◼   ► I just want to point out here that canonically do we have two horses in the room at Roundup Art?"

00:04:57 ◼   ► Ah, yes.

00:04:57 ◼   ► We're on horse each.

00:04:58 ◼   ► We're not. We each have our okay.

00:05:00 ◼   ► I'm going to edit this comment then.

00:05:02 ◼   ► I think it's high time you guys get off your high horses on the image playground thing.

00:05:06 ◼   ► If you're still in your bubble, I hate to break it to you that you are in the minority.

00:05:11 ◼   ► How does it hurt you when you just don't use and leave alone something that you don't like?

00:05:16 ◼   ► Imagine not having certain features just because someone else didn't like it.

00:05:20 ◼   ► Please excuse those who fancy these things and keep your cynicism to yourself, Mike.

00:05:25 ◼   ► So this feedback is funny to me because I don't know why I get hit at the end.

00:05:30 ◼   ► What did I do?

00:05:32 ◼   ► You know, like we're both in this together, I guess.

00:05:34 ◼   ► Or maybe I'm on an even higher horse maybe.

00:05:37 ◼   ► You are on a much higher horse than me about this one.

00:05:40 ◼   ► So I was reading this, rolling my eyes, and I got to the end and I was kind of delighted.

00:05:44 ◼   ► I was like, "Oh, it's really about Mike.

00:05:46 ◼   ► Take that, Mike."

00:05:47 ◼   ► Yeah, I guess.

00:05:47 ◼   ► I'm checking the room around up artwork right now.

00:05:50 ◼   ► Am I higher than you?

00:05:52 ◼   ► Let me see.

00:05:52 ◼   ► Am I actually on a higher horse?

00:05:55 ◼   ► The answer after that is loaded.

00:05:57 ◼   ► Maybe you are.

00:05:58 ◼   ► It's down low.

00:05:58 ◼   ► Nope.

00:05:59 ◼   ► No, we're about level on our horses.

00:06:02 ◼   ► Okay.

00:06:02 ◼   ► So, but when it comes to image playgrounds, yeah, I guess I am on a higher horse.

00:06:06 ◼   ► And I will say Upgrading, who wrote this in Anonymous Upgrading, I'm sorry.

00:06:10 ◼   ► I'm not going to do that.

00:06:12 ◼   ► I am in fact not going to keep my opinions to myself because I am half of this podcast

00:06:18 ◼   ► and this podcast is us giving our opinions.

00:06:20 ◼   ► So I'm going to keep doing that.

00:06:23 ◼   ► Frankly, because so since last week's episode, we both have got access to image playgrounds

00:06:27 ◼   ► now in full.

00:06:28 ◼   ► Image playgrounds, gemmoji, and image wand, which I've not used once because I don't care

00:06:34 ◼   ► about that at all.

00:06:35 ◼   ► Like I don't care about image playgrounds in the sense of me wanting it, but I want

00:06:40 ◼   ► to use it and try it because I think it's interesting.

00:06:42 ◼   ► Image wand is just not really something that I want to try.

00:06:44 ◼   ► I will get around to it, but I just haven't really thought about it.

00:06:47 ◼   ► And so like my thing having used image playgrounds for the best part of a week is that

00:06:53 ◼   ► I think the thing that I have the biggest issue with now is I just and I've said this already,

00:06:57 ◼   ► I just don't think they did a good job.

00:06:59 ◼   ► Like I don't think that this is a good idea to pursue anyway.

00:07:03 ◼   ► Like the creation of AI artwork, especially of the creation of AI artwork of people in

00:07:09 ◼   ► your photo library, which I just think is really bad, which by the way, like, come on,

00:07:13 ◼   ► I can make this up like babies in my photo library.

00:07:16 ◼   ► Like that's just gross.

00:07:17 ◼   ► Like I just think it's gross.

00:07:18 ◼   ► But anyway, I don't think this is a good idea for them to pursue.

00:07:21 ◼   ► But the bigger problem I have is I just don't think the quality of the imagery that they're

00:07:24 ◼   ► producing is good enough.

00:07:25 ◼   ► We generated some really bad stuff.

00:07:28 ◼   ► They just don't look good.

00:07:29 ◼   ► Really ugly stuff.

00:07:30 ◼   ► They just don't look, they're not high quality.

00:07:33 ◼   ► Like the art style just isn't that great.

00:07:37 ◼   ► Like I don't think that image playgrounds is a good enough, a well enough implemented

00:07:43 ◼   ► feature to take what I think will be a reputational hit.

00:07:46 ◼   ► I don't believe, I don't, I'm not on the side of this person who's written in to say

00:07:50 ◼   ► that there is like a majority of people who are so excited and can't wait to use these

00:07:55 ◼   ► features.

00:07:55 ◼   ► Yeah, you're in the minority.

00:07:56 ◼   ► Well, I'd love to see that poll of people who are using a feature that's only in a developer

00:08:02 ◼   ► beta.

00:08:02 ◼   ► Come on, come on.

00:08:04 ◼   ► That's just BS, right?

00:08:06 ◼   ► That's not, you don't know your opinion, you have your opinion, so therefore you're in

00:08:10 ◼   ► the majority.

00:08:11 ◼   ► Come on, get off your horse.

00:08:12 ◼   ► Yeah, but like this person is free to-

00:08:14 ◼   ► Will free whether people use it and like it or not.

00:08:16 ◼   ► Yeah, they're free to write in.

00:08:17 ◼   ► But you are in the minority is just BS and that's not based on anything at all other

00:08:22 ◼   ► than wanting to be right and wanting us to be wrong.

00:08:25 ◼   ► And like we don't, I'll tell you, we'll find out who's in the majority of the minority.

00:08:29 ◼   ► They'll roll this out to everybody.

00:08:30 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:08:31 ◼   ► And in a year will people be using liking image playgrounds or will people have tried

00:08:35 ◼   ► it and gone, eh, this is no good and dumped it.

00:08:37 ◼   ► I guess we'll find out.

00:08:38 ◼   ► That's the beauty of that.

00:08:40 ◼   ► If you are a listener who wants to hear me talk a lot, a lot, a lot about my feelings

00:08:44 ◼   ► on this, you can go listen to Connected.

00:08:45 ◼   ► We spoke about it for a really long time because I just got an access to it.

00:08:48 ◼   ► But I zeroed in on my main thing here.

00:08:51 ◼   ► Like my main point about image playgrounds that I will leave on today is I consider Apple

00:08:58 ◼   ► a company of great taste.

00:09:00 ◼   ► I think this is a tasteless feature.

00:09:02 ◼   ► Like I do not see the taste in the way this has been implemented.

00:09:06 ◼   ► And I will compare that to Genmoji, which I think is brilliant.

00:09:11 ◼   ► Like it's really good.

00:09:13 ◼   ► Fantastic idea implemented well enough.

00:09:15 ◼   ► It doesn't go great.

00:09:16 ◼   ► But in the ways that it goes wrong are just weird and funny.

00:09:20 ◼   ► Not like I've made a grotesque version of Jason.

00:09:23 ◼   ► You know?

00:09:23 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:09:24 ◼   ► I think that this is a, because I've also like, I've made like Genmoji of my friends

00:09:30 ◼   ► and that feels better because they're, they look like emoji.

00:09:33 ◼   ► They look more like me emoji, right?

00:09:35 ◼   ► I just think like that.

00:09:36 ◼   ► They're stylized.

00:09:36 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:09:37 ◼   ► And also like the way in which they create the training set is like, it's their emoji.

00:09:41 ◼   ► You can clearly see that everything is styled in their emoji style.

00:09:45 ◼   ► And I've been having a lot of fun with this.

00:09:48 ◼   ► Like, um, I've been creating loads of like fun little characters, like little ducks and

00:09:54 ◼   ► things that I'm sending to my friends.

00:09:56 ◼   ► Like I think that it is a very good like way of creating AI generated imagery that fits

00:10:04 ◼   ► in with Apple's platforms and fits in with what I think their customers are going to

00:10:07 ◼   ► use.

00:10:08 ◼   ► I think it has been implemented very, very well into the system by like it's in the emoji

00:10:15 ◼   ► area, but also if you just search for an emoji, like you might do and there isn't one, it's

00:10:18 ◼   ► like, Hey, do you want to make this?

00:10:19 ◼   ► Like, this is great.

00:10:21 ◼   ► Like that's what I'm saying.

00:10:22 ◼   ► Like, I think Genmoji is a fantastically well implemented thing.

00:10:26 ◼   ► And it is, and that again shows the stark contrast to image playgrounds for me.

00:10:32 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:10:32 ◼   ► And I would say a high time to get off the high horse.

00:10:36 ◼   ► Um, you know, disagreeing with us is fine, but, um, telling us to shut up because you

00:10:41 ◼   ► don't like what we have to say is not fine.

00:10:43 ◼   ► And so it's like saying it's time you guys got off your high horse about the butterfly

00:10:48 ◼   ► keyboard, or it's time you guys got off your high horse about the touch bar.

00:10:52 ◼   ► Like we get to have opinions and sometimes they're positive and you agree with them.

00:10:56 ◼   ► And sometimes they're negative and you agree with them.

00:10:58 ◼   ► And sometimes it's the reverse and that's fine.

00:11:01 ◼   ► You, you know, this is not meant to beam into your brain and have you walk around like a

00:11:04 ◼   ► zombie agreeing with everything we say.

00:11:07 ◼   ► I love, I would love it.

00:11:09 ◼   ► I would prefer it if that this podcast was about challenging people and making them think

00:11:14 ◼   ► about what they believe and do they agree with us and do they not?

00:11:16 ◼   ► We're not trying to be provocateurs here.

00:11:18 ◼   ► We're just trying to be honest with our opinions, but we can't, this podcast doesn't make

00:11:23 ◼   ► sense if we have a negative opinion about something and we don't share it, we just pretend

00:11:30 ◼   ► that it's fine or tiptoe around it.

00:11:32 ◼   ► That's not going to happen.

00:11:34 ◼   ► So, you know, just get over it and, and spare me.

00:11:38 ◼   ► You're, you're in the minority because that's ridiculous.

00:11:41 ◼   ► And like, you don't have to agree with us, but if we don't like something, we're going

00:11:44 ◼   ► to say so.

00:11:44 ◼   ► And if you like it, great, that's fine, but we're not going to stop talking about it.

00:11:48 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:11:48 ◼   ► It's like, I am a podcast listener, right?

00:11:50 ◼   ► Like, like everybody else is.

00:11:52 ◼   ► And there are podcasts where I listen to every week and sometimes people say anything, say

00:11:56 ◼   ► something.

00:11:56 ◼   ► I was listening to a podcast today, a podcast I listened to twice a week.

00:12:00 ◼   ► And one of the hosts is saying something and I'm like, you have no idea what you're

00:12:03 ◼   ► talking about right now.

00:12:04 ◼   ► Like, they're just saying a thing, like they're like stating it as like, this is what, and

00:12:08 ◼   ► I'm like, no, that is completely wrong.

00:12:10 ◼   ► And I thought about writing in, but I couldn't be bothered.

00:12:12 ◼   ► But you know, but I understand, I understand like this feeling of like, no, you're wrong,

00:12:18 ◼   ► but you know, always send in your follow up, your feedback at upgradefeedback.com.

00:12:24 ◼   ► I read all of it.

00:12:25 ◼   ► So, you know, there you go.

00:12:27 ◼   ► I don't, I don't know.

00:12:29 ◼   ► You don't need to.

00:12:30 ◼   ► Mike is my screener.

00:12:31 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:12:31 ◼   ► Mike is my screener.

00:12:32 ◼   ► Yeah, because usually why it's funny when sometimes Jason does read the feedback and

00:12:38 ◼   ► he gets it, he sends me screenshots.

00:12:40 ◼   ► He's like so mad.

00:12:41 ◼   ► Yep.

00:12:45 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:12:47 ◼   ► It's, it's healthier if I don't, if I don't read it all.

00:12:49 ◼   ► Cause Mike, Mike is like, you don't need to see this one.

00:12:51 ◼   ► I'm like, okay, good.

00:12:52 ◼   ► I've gotten, I've developed, I would say my skin is medium thickness.

00:12:56 ◼   ► Like things get to me, right.

00:12:58 ◼   ► But my, my skin has become thicker over time.

00:13:02 ◼   ► Also, there's no product.

00:13:03 ◼   ► It's not productive.

00:13:03 ◼   ► I've seen it all at this point.

00:13:05 ◼   ► Right.

00:13:05 ◼   ► So it's more like, it's not productive for me to get something that's just being mean

00:13:09 ◼   ► and just rail about, could you get a load of this guy?

00:13:12 ◼   ► What is, what does this even mean?

00:13:14 ◼   ► This is so mean or stupid or whatever.

00:13:16 ◼   ► It's just not like, for me to get upset about some of that.

00:13:21 ◼   ► I know we don't, we don't.

00:13:22 ◼   ► We don't get very much.

00:13:23 ◼   ► Look, anybody who does anything publicly, especially you occasionally get the sack of

00:13:28 ◼   ► poop that gets dropped at your doorstep.

00:13:30 ◼   ► It just happens.

00:13:31 ◼   ► Right.

00:13:31 ◼   ► It just happens and you learn to deal with it.

00:13:33 ◼   ► But one of the pleasures of having Mike read all the upgrade feedback is that that particular

00:13:39 ◼   ► mail slot, that particular deposit area, I don't have to deal with.

00:13:43 ◼   ► I deal with all the others, but that one, I, you know, I deal with the downstream feedback.

00:13:49 ◼   ► I deal with the six colors feedback.

00:13:51 ◼   ► Like I deal with the incomparable feedback.

00:13:53 ◼   ► I don't have to deal with all the upgrade feedback.

00:13:56 ◼   ► I just look at the show doc where Mike has pasted it in.

00:13:59 ◼   ► And on the flip side.

00:14:01 ◼   ► A little vacation.

00:14:02 ◼   ► I get more feedback on this show than any other show that I do.

00:14:05 ◼   ► And I love it because we have so many great listeners who send in so much great stuff.

00:14:08 ◼   ► And like even this, right?

00:14:09 ◼   ► I use this today as an opportunity to be able to talk about the stuff again.

00:14:14 ◼   ► So like it's still beneficial to me.

00:14:16 ◼   ► Haha.

00:14:17 ◼   ► Oh, you turned the tables.

00:14:18 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:14:18 ◼   ► How the turns table.

00:14:21 ◼   ► The request to not talk about something led to you talking about it.

00:14:24 ◼   ► Yes.

00:14:24 ◼   ► I'm just saying.

00:14:25 ◼   ► It sure did.

00:14:26 ◼   ► And I was, for me, the best thing that has happened in, uh, in Elon buying Twitter is

00:14:33 ◼   ► moving away from that as my feedback mechanism.

00:14:35 ◼   ► Like these feedback forms is just like, it's massively changed.

00:14:40 ◼   ► It's a cut above.

00:14:41 ◼   ► For me, like how the quality of feedback that I receive because of our feedback forms, it's

00:14:47 ◼   ► like 20,000 times better than it was before.

00:14:49 ◼   ► Oh yeah.

00:14:50 ◼   ► It's not drive bys.

00:14:51 ◼   ► And they're more like, as much as I disagree with this anonymous note, it is coming

00:14:56 ◼   ► from a point of view that is understandable.

00:14:58 ◼   ► Mm hmm.

00:15:00 ◼   ► And at least by letting this person be anonymous, they got to tell me how they truly feel.

00:15:04 ◼   ► And it's interesting to read sometimes.

00:15:07 ◼   ► I do find that interesting.

00:15:08 ◼   ► But the Twitter stuff is such a drive by.

00:15:11 ◼   ► It takes much more effort to even do an anonymous thing in a form.

00:15:16 ◼   ► And the Twitter stuff, one of the things that I still notice about Mastodon, and there

00:15:20 ◼   ► are definitely reply guys on Mastodon, but I see posts on Mastodon that I think, oh geez,

00:15:25 ◼   ► if I click into the comments here and into the replies, it is going to be a disaster.

00:15:30 ◼   ► And there's nothing.

00:15:31 ◼   ► And I thought, well, on Twitter, this would have been a disaster.

00:15:34 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:15:35 ◼   ► But here, it's just not.

00:15:37 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:15:38 ◼   ► It's just, it's very, and I agree with you, that was some of the worst stuff that I got

00:15:42 ◼   ► was on Twitter.

00:15:43 ◼   ► So I don't mind not interacting with that stuff.

00:15:46 ◼   ► Well, I can tell you that that feeling of like those posts, they're on threads, right?

00:15:52 ◼   ► They are.

00:15:53 ◼   ► I've seen them on threads.

00:15:54 ◼   ► Yeah, because that stuff, it needs, these posts, they need an algorithm to like attract

00:15:59 ◼   ► all of that.

00:16:00 ◼   ► Because people who don't know anything about you or who you are, have any connection to

00:16:04 ◼   ► you can then see them and pop off.

00:16:06 ◼   ► Yeah, exactly.

00:16:07 ◼   ► That's why algorithmic timelines are bad.

00:16:08 ◼   ► Yep.

00:16:09 ◼   ► And it's why quote tweeting shouldn't exist.

00:16:11 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:16:13 ◼   ► I think part of the problem with social media is the dunking.

00:16:17 ◼   ► And I just think...

00:16:18 ◼   ► It's dunking.

00:16:18 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:16:18 ◼   ► Sure.

00:16:19 ◼   ► Actually, one of the things that I have noticed that I do like about some algorithms and

00:16:23 ◼   ► social media is that they're based on my preferences, right?

00:16:27 ◼   ► Like there are algorithmic items that are, you're seeing this because a person you follow

00:16:33 ◼   ► replied to it.

00:16:34 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:16:35 ◼   ► And I do think like for me, threads does a decent job.

00:16:38 ◼   ► Like threads for me is significantly better as an algorithmic timeline than Twitter ever

00:16:44 ◼   ► was, I think.

00:16:46 ◼   ► Yeah, and Twitter's worse now.

00:16:48 ◼   ► Yeah, I would not know.

00:16:49 ◼   ► I have not logged in since what?

00:16:52 ◼   ► The end of 2022?

00:16:53 ◼   ► Don't ask me.

00:16:54 ◼   ► Ask the Wall Street Journal who set up accounts with following nothing but innocuous subjects

00:17:00 ◼   ► and their timeline got blasted with political stuff.

00:17:03 ◼   ► So, I mean, it's gotten worse.

00:17:05 ◼   ► It's intentionally gotten worse.

00:17:07 ◼   ► Yep.

00:17:07 ◼   ► So we do love your feedback.

00:17:10 ◼   ► Yep.

00:17:10 ◼   ► Mostly.

00:17:11 ◼   ► And we want to hear it.

00:17:12 ◼   ► And Mike, I mean, again, send it to Mike.

00:17:14 ◼   ► This episode is brought to you in part by our friends over at Delete Me.

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00:19:39 ◼   ► So the news has now passed in such a way that we can attempt to score the draw.

00:19:46 ◼   ► - Phew, our draft.

00:19:48 ◼   ► Okay, so I have some thoughts about the draft.

00:19:51 ◼   ► - We will do.

00:19:52 ◼   ► - I think that either, well, no, I mean, you and I, I checked some stuff today and I discovered

00:19:59 ◼   ► that it was closer.

00:19:59 ◼   ► I was ready to give this to you and then I thought it was closer than I expected.

00:20:04 ◼   ► However, and I know you've checked in with ZMK, our score keeper and adjudicator while

00:20:12 ◼   ► Steven has been on his sabbatical.

00:20:16 ◼   ► I don't think it's necessary.

00:20:17 ◼   ► I was going to propose to you earlier today that we just waved this one off, in which

00:20:21 ◼   ► case you would continue as draft champion.

00:20:23 ◼   ► We can also accept it and you can continue as draft champion.

00:20:27 ◼   ► Let me tell you what I scored, okay?

00:20:28 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:20:28 ◼   ► - I have it five, five with a tie that our tiebreaker is bad because we did, is it a

00:20:36 ◼   ► traditional event, is it event or newsroom?

00:20:40 ◼   ► And it is a series of newsroom posts, not just one, and also a series of event-like

00:20:46 ◼   ► videos, but not just one and with no pre-invitation.

00:20:49 ◼   ► So I would, so this is one of my arguments is I think our tiebreaker is bad.

00:20:55 ◼   ► I hate that, right?

00:20:55 ◼   ► We need to make it so it can't not, it should have been like, will it be an event or not?

00:21:01 ◼   ► And, or will it be an event with invitation or not?

00:21:05 ◼   ► Something very precise.

00:21:05 ◼   ► - Or something else.

00:21:07 ◼   ► It should have been something completely else.

00:21:09 ◼   ► - Right.

00:21:09 ◼   ► Will Tim appear in a video?

00:21:11 ◼   ► - We did our best.

00:21:11 ◼   ► - Whatever, we did our best, but we failed at it.

00:21:13 ◼   ► And so this is the problem is that we could, what made me sad is like, even if I score

00:21:18 ◼   ► this as a tie, the tiebreaker is something we would have to argue about and I don't like

00:21:23 ◼   ► that.

00:21:23 ◼   ► So here's how I broke it down and it's going to end with you winning.

00:21:26 ◼   ► So we don't have to worry about it.

00:21:28 ◼   ► - Okay.

00:21:29 ◼   ► - Here are the things I got right.

00:21:31 ◼   ► New Mac mini is smaller than ever.

00:21:32 ◼   ► New MacBook Pro is introduced.

00:21:34 ◼   ► New iMac introduced.

00:21:35 ◼   ► New Mac mini starting price remains unchanged.

00:21:38 ◼   ► Took a little risk there.

00:21:39 ◼   ► I got that one.

00:21:40 ◼   ► Space Black comes to the base model MacBook Pro.

00:21:42 ◼   ► Thank you, Russian Black Market.

00:21:44 ◼   ► That's-

00:21:44 ◼   ► - Space Black Market.

00:21:45 ◼   ► - Yep.

00:21:46 ◼   ► You got, well, Russians were first in space, right?

00:21:49 ◼   ► So now they're first in space black.

00:21:50 ◼   ► - Cosmos Black.

00:21:51 ◼   ► - You've got, you got a Roscosmos Black.

00:21:55 ◼   ► You got Mac mini has a new industrial design.

00:21:57 ◼   ► New Mac mini comes with M4 and M4 Pro configurations.

00:22:00 ◼   ► Apple intelligence demo.

00:22:02 ◼   ► I thought you were going to get this wrong, but because they did those videos and because

00:22:07 ◼   ► every video had a lengthy Apple intelligence demo, which is hilarious that they made,

00:22:14 ◼   ► they made the poor lady who has to do Apple intelligence demos do a different one for

00:22:19 ◼   ► each of the three different computers they introduced.

00:22:21 ◼   ► It's that important to them.

00:22:23 ◼   ► So that was a good, that was a good pick that I thought was risky and you nailed it.

00:22:27 ◼   ► New Mac mini removes all USB ports.

00:22:30 ◼   ► Yes.

00:22:31 ◼   ► Pour one out for the USB port.

00:22:32 ◼   ► It's going away.

00:22:34 ◼   ► Once the, once the Pro, once like the Mac studio gets kicked out, are there USBAs on

00:22:39 ◼   ► the back of the Mac Pro too?

00:22:40 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:22:41 ◼   ► But anyway, it'll be gone soon completely.

00:22:43 ◼   ► They'll be gone soon.

00:22:44 ◼   ► It's all, we're almost there.

00:22:45 ◼   ► And a Mac mini has some ports on the front, which you were right about.

00:22:48 ◼   ► In fact, all of them do.

00:22:50 ◼   ► So that's five, five.

00:22:51 ◼   ► Here's what we got wrong.

00:22:52 ◼   ► I said some M4 Pro and Macs model ship later than base M4 models.

00:22:58 ◼   ► I thought it was going to be one of those things where they were going to be like,

00:23:01 ◼   ► there M4 is available Friday, but the Pro or the Macs is available later in November

00:23:06 ◼   ► or something like that.

00:23:07 ◼   ► Nope.

00:23:07 ◼   ► They're all shipping at the same time.

00:23:08 ◼   ► So good for Apple on that.

00:23:10 ◼   ► You said, uh, at least one Mac mini config doesn't have ethernet.

00:23:15 ◼   ► That's not true.

00:23:15 ◼   ► Um, and, and then we have two that I would say are disputable, but I think they're both

00:23:21 ◼   ► wrong.

00:23:22 ◼   ► I think they're disputable, but they're both wrong.

00:23:23 ◼   ► So it's five, five.

00:23:24 ◼   ► Now you said release date given for first Apple intelligence features.

00:23:29 ◼   ► And I have checked the transcript.

00:23:31 ◼   ► Literally all they need to say is yesterday, today, or tomorrow.

00:23:35 ◼   ► And they said now shipping, which is not it.

00:23:38 ◼   ► You can get it now.

00:23:39 ◼   ► It's now.

00:23:41 ◼   ► Not it.

00:23:42 ◼   ► Cause they released it and then they said now.

00:23:45 ◼   ► So I think, I think that's a miss.

00:23:47 ◼   ► And then I said new iMac comes in same colors as before.

00:23:50 ◼   ► What's funny about this one is the names of the colors didn't change, but the shades

00:23:58 ◼   ► did.

00:23:59 ◼   ► And I thought, am I going to make a ridiculous argument that even though it's not the same

00:24:05 ◼   ► shades, they are of the same colors and that since it's still purple, it's still purple.

00:24:11 ◼   ► And then I went to the, I said, you know what?

00:24:13 ◼   ► This is silly.

00:24:14 ◼   ► Let's go to the newsroom post, which has at the S as the subhead in the iMac post new

00:24:19 ◼   ► colors.

00:24:19 ◼   ► Okay.

00:24:21 ◼   ► Okay.

00:24:22 ◼   ► Which, which takes us back around to will the announcement be an event or a newsroom

00:24:25 ◼   ► post?

00:24:26 ◼   ► You said it, you said newsroom post.

00:24:27 ◼   ► I said event.

00:24:28 ◼   ► Uh, I think again, I could argue that it's neither, but it was more of it.

00:24:34 ◼   ► There were newsroom posts and it was not a traditional video event.

00:24:41 ◼   ► And therefore, whether it's, I will, I'm going to give it to you because I don't think I,

00:24:48 ◼   ► as a gentleman participant in the draft can truthfully argue.

00:24:54 ◼   ► I could argue it, but I, my heart wouldn't be in it that it goes the other way.

00:24:59 ◼   ► So I think that, you know, either we could just throw out the tiebreaker and say, forget

00:25:04 ◼   ► it.

00:25:04 ◼   ► We're just, I'm not saying it's a tie.

00:25:05 ◼   ► There is no champion.

00:25:06 ◼   ► Place your pennant sideways.

00:25:08 ◼   ► I'm saying it would just, you would continue as the champion.

00:25:10 ◼   ► You can also just continue as the champion.

00:25:12 ◼   ► It's fine.

00:25:13 ◼   ► So I think this is a tie and I'm going to give you the tiebreaker.

00:25:17 ◼   ► Cool.

00:25:17 ◼   ► Um, but so close, so close, so close.

00:25:20 ◼   ► And also so silly that we did this, but I'm glad we did it.

00:25:23 ◼   ► Yes.

00:25:23 ◼   ► There's a couple of things.

00:25:24 ◼   ► I'm happy we did it.

00:25:25 ◼   ► I'm happy that we did as well as we did.

00:25:28 ◼   ► We've got five out of seven and we've learned something valuable that for the next time

00:25:34 ◼   ► we do this, we need to come up with a tiebreaker that like will be indisputable.

00:25:40 ◼   ► Exactly.

00:25:41 ◼   ► So how we work that out, like my thought was, for example, you know, like if we would have

00:25:47 ◼   ► done something like this, uh, just pick what would be a pick, right?

00:25:50 ◼   ► Like something that seems like an obvious pick and it's just like a yes or no.

00:25:54 ◼   ► Like for example, will there be ethernet on any Mac minis?

00:25:58 ◼   ► Yes or no.

00:25:58 ◼   ► Like that.

00:25:58 ◼   ► I think for something like this, it needs to be like an indisputable thing.

00:26:03 ◼   ► Indisputable.

00:26:04 ◼   ► Yeah, exactly right.

00:26:05 ◼   ► And I thought that we got there and we did not get friends.

00:26:08 ◼   ► No, because they did both.

00:26:10 ◼   ► And also needed.

00:26:13 ◼   ► We decided we wanted to do it.

00:26:14 ◼   ► There weren't even any Ricky's on connected, right?

00:26:16 ◼   ► Like it just didn't even happen.

00:26:18 ◼   ► So I'm glad we did it.

00:26:19 ◼   ► I'm glad we are cornering the market on mini games related to Apple events, but we have

00:26:25 ◼   ► learned some lessons for next time.

00:26:27 ◼   ► And, uh, I will, I will reap my, my pennant fell down.

00:26:30 ◼   ► It's kind of like just sitting with challenger, uh, put forward, but I will re-pin it to the

00:26:38 ◼   ► place where the pennants go.

00:26:39 ◼   ► Uh, congratulations.

00:26:41 ◼   ► I like, I like that this was a tie.

00:26:44 ◼   ► I like that we came real close this time.

00:26:46 ◼   ► I think it was a hard fought thing.

00:26:48 ◼   ► And by the barest of margins of really just sort of interpreting, uh, if I had, if I had

00:26:54 ◼   ► said like, you know, there will be lengthy videos or something, it would have been different,

00:26:58 ◼   ► but I just said event and that's not good enough.

00:27:01 ◼   ► So you get it.

00:27:01 ◼   ► But there are new max, there are more new max, more new max than when we spoke last

00:27:07 ◼   ► time.

00:27:07 ◼   ► And at least one of them was the one that we were really waiting for, which is the Mac

00:27:11 ◼   ► mini.

00:27:12 ◼   ► So we'll start by talking about that.

00:27:14 ◼   ► Um, it is very small.

00:27:16 ◼   ► It is a small computer.

00:27:17 ◼   ► They did the thing.

00:27:18 ◼   ► They made a really tiny Mac.

00:27:19 ◼   ► The imagery is great with like holding it in the hand.

00:27:22 ◼   ► Like that's really cool.

00:27:23 ◼   ► Um, I guess it has the M4 as the M4 Pro there's IO on the front and the back.

00:27:29 ◼   ► I'm just going to run through a couple of bits.

00:27:30 ◼   ► First carbon neutral Mac.

00:27:32 ◼   ► The pro chip has thunderbolt five, the power buttons on the bottom.

00:27:35 ◼   ► It supports a bunch of display options, including up to three 6k displays, 16 gigabytes of Ram

00:27:41 ◼   ► as standard.

00:27:42 ◼   ► Um, and there are lots of upgrades available for the machine.

00:27:46 ◼   ► And oh boy, did I was upgrades make that machine expensive.

00:27:49 ◼   ► It does.

00:27:51 ◼   ► Although if you think about it, the M4 Pro Mac mini starting at whatever it is, 15 or

00:27:57 ◼   ► $1,600.

00:27:58 ◼   ► That's a pretty good buy.

00:28:00 ◼   ► But, but I think as many people have noticed, this is not new, but I think that it's getting

00:28:05 ◼   ► more and more egregious over time, which is, uh, Apple gives and Apple takes away.

00:28:10 ◼   ► Apple's made 16 gigs of Ram, the base everywhere.

00:28:13 ◼   ► That's great.

00:28:14 ◼   ► But if you want more of anything you will pay.

00:28:18 ◼   ► And when it's a cheaper system, I almost said cheap, but like, you know, 5 99 for a Mac

00:28:23 ◼   ► mini base, like an upgrade can double the price easily of that base model.

00:28:31 ◼   ► Just a storage upgrade can, can almost double the price.

00:28:36 ◼   ► And that's where it really hurts.

00:28:37 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:28:37 ◼   ► My favorite thing for this was from friend of the show, Quinn Nelson.

00:28:40 ◼   ► It's Nasi Labs who posted on threads.

00:28:43 ◼   ► You can buy two base model Mac minis for the price.

00:28:45 ◼   ► It costs to upgrade a single Mac mini to 32 gigabytes of Ram or 512 gigabytes of storage.

00:28:51 ◼   ► So like to get the Ram and storage, you could just buy two computers, which is something's

00:28:57 ◼   ► wrong there.

00:28:58 ◼   ► Like something is wrong there.

00:28:59 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:29:00 ◼   ► And then just connect them or anyway.

00:29:03 ◼   ► Yes, this is true.

00:29:04 ◼   ► This is Apple's look.

00:29:06 ◼   ► Apple is keeping their base prices the same.

00:29:12 ◼   ► Which is admirable.

00:29:13 ◼   ► That's great.

00:29:14 ◼   ► This is the, this is the downside of that is by doing that, what they're doing is creating

00:29:21 ◼   ► a buying scenario where you look at the base price and go, Oh great.

00:29:25 ◼   ► And then you start plugging in the numbers and you don't really realize until you're

00:29:28 ◼   ► done.

00:29:28 ◼   ► Like, wait, what, what is it's a thousand dollars.

00:29:31 ◼   ► It's $1,200 now.

00:29:32 ◼   ► I thought this was 5 99.

00:29:33 ◼   ► And the answer is yeah, but you got to take the base.

00:29:36 ◼   ► And the fact is a lot of people can just take the base.

00:29:39 ◼   ► But if you are a more discerning user, you're not going to want to take the base and the

00:29:44 ◼   ► prices are going to get pretty high, pretty fast.

00:29:46 ◼   ► In fact, I, so I have an M1 max max studio base model, I believe.

00:29:54 ◼   ► And I, what I learned in looking at the Mac mini is that I'm probably not going to buy

00:30:02 ◼   ► an M4 max studio when it comes out.

00:30:05 ◼   ► The reason is I priced the Mac mini pro model the way I would configure it.

00:30:12 ◼   ► And it was like $2,500 or $2,600.

00:30:17 ◼   ► And I thought I'm not spending, I'd like, that's a lot of money.

00:30:23 ◼   ► If I'm going to get a new computer, I'm not spending more than that.

00:30:25 ◼   ► And I realized max studio, it's probably going to be more than that or in that ballpark.

00:30:32 ◼   ► So I'm going to wait.

00:30:33 ◼   ► I don't actually need a new computer right now.

00:30:35 ◼   ► The M1 max, here's the, here's the other part of this.

00:30:37 ◼   ► And, and so a little tangent here.

00:30:41 ◼   ► I, I, I definitely saw a lot of people complaining that Apple continues to compare Mac, modern

00:30:47 ◼   ► max to Intel max.

00:30:48 ◼   ► But I also heard from a lot of people who pointed out that there are a lot of people

00:30:52 ◼   ► out there who keep their max for seven, eight, nine years.

00:30:54 ◼   ► They do.

00:30:55 ◼   ► I think it is an absolutely fair thing when they are very clear about what they're comparing

00:30:59 ◼   ► it to.

00:31:00 ◼   ► And in the videos, they compare it to M1 and Intel and they're very clear about that.

00:31:04 ◼   ► And I think that is such a valid thing to do.

00:31:07 ◼   ► Why would they not do that?

00:31:08 ◼   ► I, I, I find it weird when people are like, Oh, exactly.

00:31:11 ◼   ► I think, I think only Intel might be disingenuous, but they're not just doing it only to Intel

00:31:17 ◼   ► anymore.

00:31:17 ◼   ► They're doing only Intel.

00:31:18 ◼   ► They're doing Intel and Apple Silicon.

00:31:20 ◼   ► And that's great because they're, they know, look, they know better than anybody else.

00:31:26 ◼   ► How many Intel max?

00:31:27 ◼   ► What's out there.

00:31:28 ◼   ► They know that.

00:31:29 ◼   ► They know in the install base that it's a lot, maybe more than half.

00:31:34 ◼   ► I don't know, but like a lot, because a lot of people don't buy a computer every two years

00:31:38 ◼   ► or three years or four years or five years, even they're using IMAX from eight years ago.

00:31:45 ◼   ► They're using a laptop they bought in 2016, right?

00:31:49 ◼   ► Eight years ago.

00:31:50 ◼   ► And for them, Apple wants to say, look, it's a no brainer.

00:31:54 ◼   ► You're fine.

00:31:54 ◼   ► You should finally come over to Apple Silicon.

00:31:56 ◼   ► And, and every time they introduce a product, it's a time for them to point out to their

00:32:00 ◼   ► existing customer base that maybe, Hey, there's a new one.

00:32:05 ◼   ► Maybe now's the time for you to finally make that jump.

00:32:07 ◼   ► And you know, we, when we've come a long way, maybe people were reluctant about the whole

00:32:11 ◼   ► Apple Silicon thing.

00:32:12 ◼   ► And now they're, they've seen that it's gone really well.

00:32:14 ◼   ► And, and yes, those numbers are amazing to say a late stage Intel laptop.

00:32:19 ◼   ► That's, you know, from 2019 even.

00:32:22 ◼   ► And you know, it's eight times faster or 12 times faster or something really with, with

00:32:26 ◼   ► 24 hour battery life and all these other things.

00:32:29 ◼   ► Like, I think that's really powerful.

00:32:31 ◼   ► So, so we need to accept that a lot of people are not just upgrading from Apple Silicon.

00:32:35 ◼   ► And then my, my, uh, my tangential point that I was going to make was M one is still great.

00:32:41 ◼   ► I mean, I actually think it's, it's a good idea for Apple to target Intel and talk about

00:32:46 ◼   ► Intel because there are probably a lot of people out there who are still using Intel

00:32:50 ◼   ► max.

00:32:50 ◼   ► And if you already jumped to Apple Silicon, unless you are very specifically needing

00:32:58 ◼   ► something for your work as a, as a pro person, like just to generalize for a moment, if you

00:33:07 ◼   ► have an Apple Silicon Mac, you're good, right?

00:33:10 ◼   ► You're good.

00:33:11 ◼   ► You're good.

00:33:11 ◼   ► It could be better.

00:33:12 ◼   ► It could be faster.

00:33:13 ◼   ► You may have reasons.

00:33:15 ◼   ► You may want that plugin to run faster.

00:33:17 ◼   ► You may like the look of the new laptop and you have an older laptop or the, like I got

00:33:22 ◼   ► an M two air because I really liked how that looked.

00:33:25 ◼   ► And, and I, I handed down my M one air because I really wanted that M two air, but like I

00:33:30 ◼   ► have an M one max, so like really high end, uh, max studio.

00:33:36 ◼   ► And I can look, look, I'm sure that M one pro Mac mini is faster in every dimension than

00:33:43 ◼   ► the M one max max studio.

00:33:44 ◼   ► I'm sure it is.

00:33:44 ◼   ► Oh, sorry.

00:33:46 ◼   ► Yes.

00:33:46 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:33:47 ◼   ► The M four and, and the I'm also sure that the M four max, uh, max studio, when it comes

00:33:55 ◼   ► next year will be incredibly impressive too.

00:33:59 ◼   ► But do I need any of it?

00:34:03 ◼   ► Do we need any of it?

00:34:05 ◼   ► Of course my audio plugins and my video exports would be a bit faster, but like, do I, do

00:34:11 ◼   ► I feel with an M one max that I'm at the point where I need to spend $2,500 to get a new

00:34:16 ◼   ► computer.

00:34:17 ◼   ► And the truth is I don't because Apple Silicon is that good.

00:34:21 ◼   ► So this is my way of saying comparing to Intel is a good idea because there are a lot of

00:34:28 ◼   ► people out there, Apple knows it.

00:34:30 ◼   ► And because Apple Silicon is so good that honestly the upgrade argument from Apple Silicon

00:34:36 ◼   ► is a lot weaker than it is from Intel because the Apple Silicon max are so good.

00:34:40 ◼   ► And that's not saying M four isn't good.

00:34:41 ◼   ► M four seems to have taken some really great strides, especially that, uh, M four pro chip

00:34:46 ◼   ► that's increased its memory bandwidth by like 75% in a single generation.

00:34:50 ◼   ► That's wild.

00:34:50 ◼   ► That's wild.

00:34:51 ◼   ► There are some benchmarks out there that are leaking.

00:34:54 ◼   ► I'm looking forward to seeing all of them and to see how the performance boosted.

00:34:57 ◼   ► But yeah, I think it's safe to say that a mid range M four chip is going to be faster

00:35:03 ◼   ► than relatively recent vintage M four max or M max chips of previous generations.

00:35:09 ◼   ► Right?

00:35:09 ◼   ► Like, so anyway, it's, uh, this is to bring it back to the Mac mini.

00:35:15 ◼   ► I've looked at that M four pro.

00:35:16 ◼   ► I actually think it's a really great deal.

00:35:18 ◼   ► It's not for me because I have a pretty great Apple Silicon system as well.

00:35:22 ◼   ► But what I love about it is with the Mac mini, you've got these options.

00:35:26 ◼   ► You've got a, a really good, like I have the base model of the previous generation,

00:35:31 ◼   ► the M two Mac mini.

00:35:32 ◼   ► And it's amazing.

00:35:35 ◼   ► And that's my server now.

00:35:36 ◼   ► And it's amazing and low power and incredibly powerful and so much better than the Intel

00:35:41 ◼   ► one that I had before that.

00:35:43 ◼   ► And, and this Mac mini being small, like it fits in more places, like physically fits

00:35:48 ◼   ► in more places.

00:35:49 ◼   ► I really love that about it.

00:35:50 ◼   ► And I love that there's a pro model that, um, that will take you to a higher level.

00:35:55 ◼   ► If you're somebody who, who needs more power, like, and I, I cannot tell you how many more

00:36:00 ◼   ► technical people I know who are leaping on the M four pro mini bandwagon.

00:36:05 ◼   ► It's the, it's the computer they want because it gives them just enough that they feel like

00:36:10 ◼   ► it's a little more pro than a base model.

00:36:12 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:36:12 ◼   ► It's the computer I want.

00:36:13 ◼   ► I mean, I'm, I'm saying this is the one that I want.

00:36:15 ◼   ► My, uh, spec is 2,400 pounds, which is expensive.

00:36:21 ◼   ► Actually not as much.

00:36:23 ◼   ► It is as much as I thought it was going to be because leading up to this, like I was

00:36:27 ◼   ► speccing out the M two pro mini and it also got to similar prices.

00:36:33 ◼   ► Like I think it's forgotten.

00:36:35 ◼   ► Like I was surprised that I was speccing out an M two Mac mini just to kind of get an idea

00:36:39 ◼   ► like a couple of weeks ago.

00:36:41 ◼   ► And it was like, Oh, this is basically the same price as the Mac studio.

00:36:44 ◼   ► Once you start actually putting all of the features that you want into it.

00:36:48 ◼   ► So this is a computer that this will be my next computer, but it's probably going to

00:36:53 ◼   ► be something I look at towards the end of this year or early next year.

00:36:57 ◼   ► Like I'm not in a rush because my M one pro I have an M one max MacBook pro is doing great.

00:37:04 ◼   ► I just desperately want to make changes to my desk and using a laptop as my desktop is

00:37:11 ◼   ► like, it's, it's holding me back from being able to do that.

00:37:14 ◼   ► And I want to just move to, I just had this little desktop and I will keep it for like

00:37:18 ◼   ► 10 years because this thing is going to be so powerful.

00:37:20 ◼   ► I'm not going to need it.

00:37:21 ◼   ► Anything else like it's just going to be like this great little box and do its thing.

00:37:24 ◼   ► But I, I'm, I haven't gotten to it yet.

00:37:28 ◼   ► I will get to it.

00:37:29 ◼   ► I know it's out there now.

00:37:30 ◼   ► I know it's what I want.

00:37:31 ◼   ► I will not wait for the Mac studio cause I don't need that.

00:37:34 ◼   ► This is going to be more than enough for me.

00:37:36 ◼   ► But I just, I just haven't gotten around to it yet and I'll trade in this MacBook pro

00:37:41 ◼   ► and like I'll do the whole nine yards, but I'm going to wait.

00:37:44 ◼   ► I'll wait for the reviews to come out too, because why not?

00:37:46 ◼   ► Like I'm not in a, like, I'm not like in a rush, nor am I concerned that this thing is

00:37:51 ◼   ► going to be like unobtainable.

00:37:53 ◼   ► Right.

00:37:54 ◼   ► It's about, yeah, I was just like, ah, if it would have been just a bit cheaper, I would

00:38:00 ◼   ► have bought already.

00:38:00 ◼   ► It's a lot of money.

00:38:02 ◼   ► It is.

00:38:04 ◼   ► It is.

00:38:04 ◼   ► This could be a computer.

00:38:06 ◼   ► I might do financing on it even.

00:38:07 ◼   ► Cause it's just like, it's like a business thing.

00:38:09 ◼   ► I could spread the cost over a few months.

00:38:11 ◼   ► Like I'm going to have this thing forever anyway.

00:38:12 ◼   ► Like I'm going to take a look at stuff like that.

00:38:14 ◼   ► I think.

00:38:14 ◼   ► Cause why not?

00:38:15 ◼   ► Like I might just just be smart with it and kind of treat it for the machine that it is.

00:38:19 ◼   ► I had a couple of things I wanted to pick out, particularly with you though.

00:38:22 ◼   ► Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but from the videos they were making a friend, friend of

00:38:28 ◼   ► the show, Tim Malay, who I love that they always refer to as Tim Malay.

00:38:31 ◼   ► They don't say here's Tim because that would break people's brains.

00:38:35 ◼   ► There's one Tim and then everybody else is Tim Malay.

00:38:38 ◼   ► Says Tim Malay.

00:38:39 ◼   ► Love.

00:38:39 ◼   ► Well, I love seeing Tim Malay.

00:38:40 ◼   ► He's a great guy.

00:38:41 ◼   ► We've spoke to him on the show multiple times.

00:38:43 ◼   ► He's super smart.

00:38:44 ◼   ► Absolutely.

00:38:44 ◼   ► Every time I see him in a briefing, it's like, Hey, I know your brother.

00:38:49 ◼   ► He referenced multiple times that the M4 pros, the core, like the chip is like the CPU chip

00:38:59 ◼   ► is the fastest CPU core of on the market.

00:39:02 ◼   ► Right.

00:39:03 ◼   ► I just found that interesting.

00:39:06 ◼   ► Is that different to the M4?

00:39:09 ◼   ► See, this is, it's a question, right?

00:39:11 ◼   ► It's in the past, the cores have been the same.

00:39:14 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:39:15 ◼   ► So there's a question is, does he mean the core or does he mean that because it's got

00:39:18 ◼   ► many, many cores, uh, but it's like the core of the M4 chip is the fastest CPU core available.

00:39:28 ◼   ► And like, I'm intrigued like what, what that actually means.

00:39:32 ◼   ► Yeah. It may literally just mean all of the M4 CPU single core.

00:39:37 ◼   ► Right.

00:39:37 ◼   ► But we don't, we don't have any benchmark numbers.

00:39:40 ◼   ► So we can't really say, but, um, that's the, that's the question is, you know, what is the,

00:39:48 ◼   ► you know, what's the deal?

00:39:50 ◼   ► I figured it's like, as it always been, but like to, to watching the videos,

00:39:54 ◼   ► they just kept talking about this during the M4 pro part.

00:39:58 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:39:59 ◼   ► And I don't know.

00:40:00 ◼   ► I mean, it could, it could be clock speed.

00:40:02 ◼   ► It could be, I mean, they may be doing something where it's literally the same core,

00:40:05 ◼   ► but running at a different clock speed.

00:40:07 ◼   ► You know, what, looking at the page, like I'm looking at the Mac mini page and it's in the

00:40:12 ◼   ► performance for M4 and M4 pro, and it just says, world's fastest CPU core for incredible

00:40:17 ◼   ► responsiveness. I think it's the M4 in general, but they just kept talking about it in the M4

00:40:22 ◼   ► pro part because obviously like, that's where they want to boast about it.

00:40:26 ◼   ► Cause they up, they update those, you know, the way the M series seems to go is that they

00:40:31 ◼   ► update different components at different times.

00:40:33 ◼   ► So like them three, they updated the GPU is to do like the Ray tracing and all of that.

00:40:38 ◼   ► I think the GPUs and the M4 may just be the GPU cores more or less from the M3.

00:40:43 ◼   ► I think that maybe there are no leaps forward there as much because they were right.

00:40:47 ◼   ► And it's like, they'll do a next generation neural engine, but not every time.

00:40:51 ◼   ► Right.

00:40:51 ◼   ► And it kind of like, they push parts of it forward faster than other parts of it.

00:40:55 ◼   ► So it says here, both chips feature the world's fastest CPU core, but it could be one of the

00:41:00 ◼   ► things that Steve's mentioned in the discord that like the performance might be better

00:41:04 ◼   ► on different chips with the thermal envelope and, or it might be better in the Mac mini

00:41:07 ◼   ► than it is in say the iPad.

00:41:10 ◼   ► Right.

00:41:10 ◼   ► Like, so I'm intrigued to see how that, how that all comes out when we get those numbers.

00:41:14 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:41:14 ◼   ► But it may just be literally they're saying it in those places, but both chips have suggests

00:41:19 ◼   ► that it's, they're just saying the M4 CPU cores, the individual performance cores are

00:41:23 ◼   ► very powerful.

00:41:25 ◼   ► I'm thrilled with the amount of IO that this machine's getting.

00:41:28 ◼   ► I'm very happy that there isn't differences between the M4 and the M4 Pro and the amount

00:41:32 ◼   ► of slots there are.

00:41:34 ◼   ► Three Thunderbolt on the back and two USB on the front, USB-C on the front.

00:41:38 ◼   ► And HDMI and ethernet, and you can get a faster ethernet.

00:41:42 ◼   ► And if you get the pro version, you get Thunderbolt 5 instead of Thunderbolt 4.

00:41:46 ◼   ► Right.

00:41:46 ◼   ► Which is dramatically faster, which is especially important, not just for data transfer, but

00:41:51 ◼   ► for driving monitors.

00:41:53 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:41:53 ◼   ► Thunderbolt 5 will, has more power to drive external monitors.

00:41:57 ◼   ► And the power button's on the bottom.

00:41:59 ◼   ► On the bottom.

00:41:59 ◼   ► I want to just get your feelings about the bottom button.

00:42:02 ◼   ► I feel as somebody who has traditionally shut their computer down every day, my desktop

00:42:07 ◼   ► computer, for reasons I've been exploring my feelings about those reasons this week,

00:42:14 ◼   ► because I view this as a clear message from Apple that the power button is not meant to

00:42:18 ◼   ► be pressed on a regular basis.

00:42:19 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:42:20 ◼   ► I should have gotten that idea every time I have to reach back and press the power button

00:42:25 ◼   ► on my Mac Studio every morning.

00:42:26 ◼   ► That alone is a little bit awkward.

00:42:28 ◼   ► This is going to be even more so, although I can't wait for the 3D printed mounts that

00:42:33 ◼   ► have a little hole for the power button so that you can stick your finger up there and

00:42:36 ◼   ► turn it on.

00:42:36 ◼   ► I saw a 3D printed thing where it's like, it puts like a button that you press on the

00:42:42 ◼   ► top and when you press it, it moves this little arm that would stretch around to the bottom

00:42:46 ◼   ► and press it underneath, which I thought was really funny.

00:42:48 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:42:48 ◼   ► That's a, you just put a hole there.

00:42:50 ◼   ► But, um, and we also, I got a very nice gentleman on Mastodon who was absolutely fishing for

00:42:56 ◼   ► compliments, but, uh, he's, I guess he's going to win it.

00:42:59 ◼   ► Uh, he said to me, I, you know, it's so nice.

00:43:04 ◼   ► So it's, it's Jared Hofferth and he, um, he said a thing that's just a mock-up, but it's

00:43:12 ◼   ► adorable.

00:43:12 ◼   ► It's a, it's a mini Mac Pro enclosure for the M4 Mac mini.

00:43:17 ◼   ► So you put it in sideways and it looks like a Mac Pro.

00:43:20 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:43:21 ◼   ► It's like the, like the, and it was citing the, like the little, uh, external drive that

00:43:26 ◼   ► Steve Jobs had on his desk that looked like a, uh, like a power Mac G5.

00:43:29 ◼   ► Um, anyway, it's adorable.

00:43:32 ◼   ► That's all I want to say about that.

00:43:35 ◼   ► But anyway, I Mike, okay, here's the thing.

00:43:38 ◼   ► This, if I, especially if I get this, I will seriously consider, uh, or if the Mac studio

00:43:43 ◼   ► comes with a power button on the bottom and I choose to get that, whatever I will seriously

00:43:47 ◼   ► consider rethinking my shutdown startup lifestyle.

00:43:50 ◼   ► As I've said before, the reason I, I know almost all Macs are laptops now, so sleep

00:43:55 ◼   ► is the preferred way of doing it.

00:43:57 ◼   ► The, the main reasons I do it, part of it is I feel like my computer does not behave

00:44:02 ◼   ► as weirdly because it has to do start from a fresh boot every day instead of having things

00:44:08 ◼   ► get weird.

00:44:08 ◼   ► And then you restart, uh, cause it's been up for months and now something has gone wrong.

00:44:14 ◼   ► Um, but there are advantages to, to, uh, to putting things to sleep, no doubt.

00:44:18 ◼   ► And it wakes up fast and all those things.

00:44:19 ◼   ► My big issue over time has been the way that it supplies power to USB devices when it's

00:44:26 ◼   ► asleep, uh, which means, you know, one stray bump and the computer wakes up, which I don't

00:44:32 ◼   ► like.

00:44:32 ◼   ► I also don't, I, it makes me uncomfortable.

00:44:34 ◼   ► So for example, I've got my USB pre, uh, uh, USB audio interface.

00:44:40 ◼   ► Like it makes me uncomfortable that it's on all the time.

00:44:45 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:44:45 ◼   ► And I know, I think Steven literally has a USB hub that he has a power switch on.

00:44:49 ◼   ► You have that too?

00:44:50 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:44:50 ◼   ► It's, uh, it's from that company that sounds German, but also sounds like a curse word.

00:44:57 ◼   ► Oh yes, yes, yes, yes.

00:44:58 ◼   ► They made a product to a word, which they don't make anymore.

00:45:02 ◼   ► Like they actually started making it, which is a real shame because I don't know what

00:45:04 ◼   ► I would do, but yeah, it, uh, it allows me to independently cut off the

00:45:09 ◼   ► all the USB power to my audio interface.

00:45:12 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:45:13 ◼   ► So I have thought about, I actually have a, uh, among the other reasons that I shut down,

00:45:18 ◼   ► I have a, an auto switching power strip that when the, uh, device that's plugged into the

00:45:25 ◼   ► key outlet goes below a certain amount of power conception, it turns off all the other

00:45:30 ◼   ► items on the power strip, which is great.

00:45:35 ◼   ► So for example, when I shut down my computer, the, my, the power, my, my max studio, or

00:45:41 ◼   ► sorry, my studio display does not go to sleep.

00:45:44 ◼   ► It's powered off.

00:45:46 ◼   ► It stops drawing power.

00:45:47 ◼   ► My USB hub stops drawing power, a bunch of stuff on my desk that's attached to the

00:45:52 ◼   ► computer.

00:45:53 ◼   ► When the computer shuts down, it all stops drawing power.

00:45:56 ◼   ► And the problem I have is if I go to sleep instead, that doesn't happen.

00:46:00 ◼   ► I don't think, I don't know if I could set it that way.

00:46:03 ◼   ► And then everything's kind of like still around and like, I could do that, but it makes

00:46:08 ◼   ► me uncomfortable.

00:46:09 ◼   ► So, so what it would require for me to switch to this sleeping lifestyle is rejiggering

00:46:16 ◼   ► my desk and maybe making different decisions about what things are plugged into and what

00:46:21 ◼   ► happens when the computer goes to sleep.

00:46:23 ◼   ► And I find that, um, I find that kind of uncomfortable.

00:46:27 ◼   ► Like right now, when I shut down, my stream deck goes off.

00:46:31 ◼   ► Whereas in the back of the house where the stream deck is attached, I think to a hub,

00:46:35 ◼   ► unless I turn a power strip off, the stream deck is always just sort of sleeping all night.

00:46:40 ◼   ► And I don't like it.

00:46:41 ◼   ► I just don't like that.

00:46:42 ◼   ► So that's my, that's my, my challenge in going from the, uh, from the shutdown lifestyle

00:46:47 ◼   ► to the sleeping lifestyle.

00:46:48 ◼   ► I haven't, haven't gotten there yet.

00:46:50 ◼   ► Yeah, I do.

00:46:50 ◼   ► I was sleeping.

00:46:51 ◼   ► Although sometimes I have to put my Mac to sleep twice because I could put it on to sleep

00:46:55 ◼   ► and it comes back on again and I don't know why.

00:46:57 ◼   ► And I have to do it again.

00:46:58 ◼   ► But I will say this, the power button being on the bottom of the Mac mini is a clear signal

00:47:03 ◼   ► for all those out there that Apple thinks that my way of using a Mac is aberrant.

00:47:09 ◼   ► Right?

00:47:10 ◼   ► Clearly this is them saying, look, Macs are meant to be slept.

00:47:14 ◼   ► The power button is like a, an emergency thing.

00:47:18 ◼   ► I did have the thought about, and I don't know if this works or not, but if I shut down

00:47:24 ◼   ► myself and I have the setting to, to start up on power, uh, on the restoration of power,

00:47:31 ◼   ► would that start the computer?

00:47:34 ◼   ► And I think the answer is no.

00:47:35 ◼   ► I think the answer is no.

00:47:37 ◼   ► Cause I think it has to be when there's a power outage and it drops, then it restarts

00:47:42 ◼   ► when the power comes back.

00:47:43 ◼   ► But I don't know.

00:47:45 ◼   ► I mean, I'm just clutching at straws here, so I don't know what's going to happen.

00:47:48 ◼   ► It's time to move on from it.

00:47:50 ◼   ► I mean, my time was done when I started using stage manager because on a restart, your stage

00:47:56 ◼   ► manager configuration does not get completely thrown away.

00:47:59 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:47:59 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:48:00 ◼   ► Incredible that they still have not done anything about that, but that's just the way to do it.

00:48:04 ◼   ► Or I'll build a home automation button pusher that just pushes the button when I switch

00:48:09 ◼   ► it to, you know, just get this little thing, stick it to the button.

00:48:13 ◼   ► Terrible, terrible.

00:48:14 ◼   ► But there was also the MacBook pro got updated.

00:48:19 ◼   ► This is, I think that's interesting, right?

00:48:21 ◼   ► So it's got the M4, the M4 Pro.

00:48:22 ◼   ► Less interesting, but more important.

00:48:23 ◼   ► Yes.

00:48:24 ◼   ► Right?

00:48:24 ◼   ► Because more people use MacBook pros, but not that interesting.

00:48:28 ◼   ► I mean, it's got the chips, right?

00:48:32 ◼   ► M4, M4 Pro and M4 Max.

00:48:35 ◼   ► So we, you know, we get to see the M4 Max as well here.

00:48:40 ◼   ► So even more, although it doesn't seem to have progressed.

00:48:43 ◼   ► We don't know about the benchmarks, but in terms of the, like the memory bandwidth and

00:48:46 ◼   ► all that, like the Max took a big leap from M2 to M3.

00:48:49 ◼   ► It looks like the pro took a bigger leap from M3 to M4, but the Max already had taken a

00:48:54 ◼   ► bigger leap, right?

00:48:55 ◼   ► So it's there.

00:48:56 ◼   ► We'll see, you know, when the benchmark charts come out and people get them in their hands

00:49:00 ◼   ► with the profiles here are, but you know, this is Apple's, it's not Apple's biggest selling

00:49:05 ◼   ► Mac.

00:49:05 ◼   ► That's the MacBook Air, but it is the Apple professional Mac of choice.

00:49:11 ◼   ► And so it's a big deal that base model that used to be the last one with a touch bar.

00:49:17 ◼   ► And before that it was the one with the escape key.

00:49:20 ◼   ► That's always been kind of hanging around where it's like, it's got the same processor

00:49:26 ◼   ► that'll be in the MacBook Air, but it's a MacBook Pro.

00:49:29 ◼   ► It got better, right?

00:49:30 ◼   ► It got better in some appreciable ways that make it more like a real MacBook Pro now.

00:49:37 ◼   ► It already had the nice screen, but now it's got a third port and that port's on the other

00:49:42 ◼   ► side, which means you've got ports on both sides of this thing now, which was a very

00:49:47 ◼   ► MacBook Air kind of thing for it to have before, but now it's got ports on either side.

00:49:52 ◼   ► It's no longer got the sort of like leftover enclosures that were space gray.

00:49:56 ◼   ► It's now got the space black that, or whatever that the other models have.

00:50:01 ◼   ► So it's more a part of the family, even though it's just an M4 than it used to be.

00:50:06 ◼   ► It feels more like a Mac Pro now, rather than this weird like wannabe MacBook Pro.

00:50:11 ◼   ► Like a MacBook Pro, like a fraud MacBook Pro.

00:50:14 ◼   ► It's like a real MacBook Pro now.

00:50:15 ◼   ► It's just, 'cause it's got, not everything, but it's got lots of things.

00:50:20 ◼   ► It's got Thunderbolt 4 instead of Thunderbolt 5.

00:50:21 ◼   ► But again, it's pretty good.

00:50:24 ◼   ► And like, one of the things that I keep thinking is when do you buy that instead of a MacBook

00:50:29 ◼   ► Air?

00:50:29 ◼   ► And part of it is like we've said before, companies don't want to buy a MacBook Air.

00:50:33 ◼   ► They want to buy a MacBook Pro and this gives them that.

00:50:35 ◼   ► - The display, you know, like that is like a genuine thing.

00:50:38 ◼   ► - You get that gorgeous display.

00:50:39 ◼   ► And the trade-off is that it's thicker and heavier, but you know, it's got a fan too,

00:50:46 ◼   ► right?

00:50:46 ◼   ► So it's got that advantage over the Air, which is fanless.

00:50:49 ◼   ► It's really sort of like a personal preference thing more than anything else.

00:50:52 ◼   ► - Do you want HDMI, for example?

00:50:54 ◼   ► Like some people would really want that and you get that.

00:50:57 ◼   ► - Sure.

00:50:58 ◼   ► Yeah, it just feels less compromised compared to its higher end MacBook Pro buddies than

00:51:04 ◼   ► it used to.

00:51:04 ◼   ► And I think that's a good thing.

00:51:05 ◼   ► And then they did a really interesting thing with the screen.

00:51:09 ◼   ► So I think I've said this for a long time.

00:51:10 ◼   ► I think the screen is like the number one feature of the MacBook Pro because it's amazing.

00:51:14 ◼   ► It's bright and promotion and it's just gorgeous.

00:51:16 ◼   ► They updated the screen in a weird way.

00:51:21 ◼   ► So it's not any brighter when you're in HDR mode, but it's brighter in SDR mode.

00:51:27 ◼   ► So basically you can crank up the brightness and leave it at a much at like a thousand

00:51:31 ◼   ► nits.

00:51:32 ◼   ► It's a much higher brightness than it used to be.

00:51:34 ◼   ► So a little bit of a difference there where they're willing to let it go brighter permanently.

00:51:39 ◼   ► That's the difference between HDR brightness and SDR brightness is really like they can

00:51:43 ◼   ► blast that thing, but only briefly.

00:51:45 ◼   ► And then it kind of backs off.

00:51:46 ◼   ► - Yeah, because realistically, this is more useful to more people, right?

00:51:49 ◼   ► The fact that you get like really bright in HDR is like, it's actually, it's not like

00:51:54 ◼   ► useful.

00:51:55 ◼   ► It's just nice like for when you're watching HDR content.

00:51:57 ◼   ► But this is like, you can use your laptop outside easier because like it will be, the

00:52:02 ◼   ► screen will be brighter.

00:52:04 ◼   ► - It'll go brighter.

00:52:04 ◼   ► - Like this is more useful to the people that are actually using the computer, I feel like.

00:52:08 ◼   ► - And like the iMac that we talked about last week, the MacBook Pro also got, they have

00:52:13 ◼   ► clearly finally built a thin enough center stage camera that it can fit in the MacBook

00:52:21 ◼   ► Pro and the iMac where they're using the wide, it's the center stage camera.

00:52:24 ◼   ► It's the one we've, it's not new, right?

00:52:26 ◼   ► I mean, it's basically the one we already know, I think.

00:52:28 ◼   ► 12 megapixel camera, wide screen, so it's cropping and allows you to move around a little

00:52:33 ◼   ► bit and adjust where the camera is going.

00:52:35 ◼   ► I know some people don't love it.

00:52:37 ◼   ► It's not perfect.

00:52:39 ◼   ► You know, you can buy better cameras, but it's, I think center stage is a good feature

00:52:43 ◼   ► to have.

00:52:44 ◼   ► And so I'm glad that they've added it to both of these because that was the question was

00:52:49 ◼   ► like on a super thin laptop screen, can you get a 12 megapixel wide, you know, wide screen

00:52:56 ◼   ► camera, small enough, thin enough to fit in that enclosure as well as the iMac, which

00:53:01 ◼   ► is a little bit thicker.

00:53:02 ◼   ► And the answer is yes, this time they did that.

00:53:04 ◼   ► And I think it's a good thing.

00:53:05 ◼   ► - Yeah, that's cool.

00:53:06 ◼   ► And also this starts at 16 gigabytes of RAM for the 14 or 24 gigabytes of RAM for the

00:53:13 ◼   ► 16.

00:53:14 ◼   ► And then they also upgraded the MacBook Air to start at 16 gigabytes of RAM too.

00:53:19 ◼   ► And the starting prices remain the same.

00:53:21 ◼   ► And this is all to enable better Apple intelligence performance because these machines will still

00:53:28 ◼   ► get Apple intelligence if they don't have that 16 gigabytes of RAM, but this will make

00:53:32 ◼   ► them more, they will make them more future-proofed and they will be better, right?

00:53:36 ◼   ► Like if you have an M whatever Mac that has less than 16 gigabytes of RAM, you can still

00:53:41 ◼   ► run Apple intelligence stuff.

00:53:43 ◼   ► I don't know what effect that will have, but you can still do it.

00:53:46 ◼   ► But I think Apple's being very clear that 16 gigabytes provides a better experience

00:53:51 ◼   ► for this stuff.

00:53:51 ◼   ► - Yeah, I think that's one of the reasons they're doing it.

00:53:54 ◼   ► It's a benefit of the increased memory bandwidth.

00:53:56 ◼   ► Just to get a little more granular here, the 16 gigs of RAM is the starting RAM for M4

00:54:03 ◼   ► models.

00:54:03 ◼   ► And the M4 model is only available in the smaller laptop, the 14.

00:54:07 ◼   ► M4 Pro and M4 Max are available in both sizes and they all start at 24.

00:54:14 ◼   ► It's only the M4.

00:54:16 ◼   ► So that you can get, if you buy an M4 Pro 14, it starts at 24.

00:54:22 ◼   ► It's only the base model that starts at 16.

00:54:24 ◼   ► - Oh, okay.

00:54:25 ◼   ► Okay.

00:54:25 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:54:26 ◼   ► So Pro and Max don't take 16.

00:54:28 ◼   ► Pro and Max chips start at 24.

00:54:30 ◼   ► So the new RAM floor for Pro and Max, is it even new?

00:54:34 ◼   ► I think it might've been the RAM floor before, it was just 24, but that's what it is.

00:54:38 ◼   ► And it's three.

00:54:38 ◼   ► Basically they have three memory chips that are feeding it, which is why it's 24 and not

00:54:43 ◼   ► 16, 'cause they've got three eight gig chips that are feeding it.

00:54:48 ◼   ► - Okay.

00:54:48 ◼   ► - But yeah, so it's good.

00:54:52 ◼   ► And again, pretty boring as an update.

00:54:55 ◼   ► I mean, new chips, which is great, but like they already redesigned this thing a couple

00:54:59 ◼   ► of years ago, so they don't need to do that.

00:55:01 ◼   ► They already did that.

00:55:02 ◼   ► So you get some incremental benefits and the new chips, but it's important because MacBook

00:55:07 ◼   ► Pros are important.

00:55:08 ◼   ► It is the tool of choice for most Mac professionals these days.

00:55:13 ◼   ► - This episode is brought to you by Factor.

00:55:18 ◼   ► I don't know about you, but sometimes when the days get shorter, it feels like to-do

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00:56:22 ◼   ► shrimp and red pepper collie grits.

00:56:25 ◼   ► Man, it's getting too close to dinner time for me to be hearing about this.

00:56:30 ◼   ► Uh, Jason, I know that you speak about, I mean these sound like really great meals,

00:56:33 ◼   ► but what's important is the food has to be, taste good, has to be good quality.

00:56:36 ◼   ► And I know that's something that you've mentioned many times, that the Factor quality of food

00:56:40 ◼   ► is really, really high.

00:56:41 ◼   ► Yeah, many times.

00:56:43 ◼   ► They probably need to send me more food.

00:56:44 ◼   ► But here's what, here's the story.

00:56:46 ◼   ► We get a lot of podcast products, right?

00:56:48 ◼   ► My life is full, your life is full of podcast products.

00:56:50 ◼   ► And Factor has been kind enough to send me a couple of boxes over the time that they've

00:56:54 ◼   ► been a sponsor.

00:56:55 ◼   ► And what happened the first time is I tried them out.

00:56:57 ◼   ► I said to Lauren, you know, you could try them out too, you know, and she goes, she

00:57:01 ◼   ► leaves the house, unlike me, leaves the house and goes to a workplace all day and needs

00:57:05 ◼   ► to bring a lunch every time.

00:57:06 ◼   ► And so she took them.

00:57:08 ◼   ► And what I noticed is then we didn't have any more conversations about it.

00:57:12 ◼   ► She might've said that it was good, but that was about it.

00:57:14 ◼   ► But what happened is she just started taking them after that, which I think is a real endorsement

00:57:19 ◼   ► because, you know, sometimes you get stuff and you're like, all right, well, it was

00:57:23 ◼   ► free, but it's a podcast thing, but whatever.

00:57:25 ◼   ► But when we got the second box, it was, I think I managed to eat one of them because

00:57:30 ◼   ► she took the rest of them to work.

00:57:32 ◼   ► I think this is a huge endorsement.

00:57:34 ◼   ► And like I said, for food that is coming in a box that is in a container that you can,

00:57:40 ◼   ► you know, cook in two minutes in a microwave.

00:57:43 ◼   ► I was deeply skeptical that the ingredients were going to be kind of poor and that it

00:57:47 ◼   ► was going to be rubbery and nothing could be further from the truth.

00:57:50 ◼   ► I don't know how they do it.

00:57:51 ◼   ► Honestly, it must be the quality of the ingredients because the chicken was good.

00:57:55 ◼   ► And the one that I had this last time, the veggies were good.

00:57:58 ◼   ► Like all the ingredients were really good.

00:58:00 ◼   ► So they have, I think that that is the secret sauce here.

00:58:03 ◼   ► And there may also be a secret sauce, but I think the big secret sauce probably so is

00:58:08 ◼   ► just that, which is they're not going to give you, oh yeah, it's a thing you can microwave

00:58:12 ◼   ► for lunch.

00:58:12 ◼   ► And then you, and then you tear into it and you're like, oh, this is kind of gross.

00:58:16 ◼   ► I just, I've had those experiences before and I didn't have them with Factor.

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00:58:57 ◼   ► your next month while your subscription is active.

00:58:59 ◼   ► Our thanks to Factor for the support of this show and all of Relay.

00:59:04 ◼   ► Jason, play me the song.

00:59:06 ◼   ► Money, money, money, money, who has all the money?

00:59:11 ◼   ► Money, money, money, money, who has all the money?

00:59:15 ◼   ► Money, money, money, money, who has all the money?

00:59:19 ◼   ► It's Apple.

00:59:23 ◼   ► It's Apple.

00:59:25 ◼   ► It's Apple.

00:59:28 ◼   ► One time, one quarter, I promised to harmonize with that song.

00:59:32 ◼   ► I'm going to do the whole thing along with Lex.

00:59:34 ◼   ► Thank you to Lex Friedman for providing this jingle.

00:59:37 ◼   ► This jingle was part of our jingle episode that we did during the Summer of Fun and this

00:59:41 ◼   ► one was a standout hit and we decided that four times a year you'll get to hear it when

00:59:45 ◼   ► we do Apple's quarterly results.

00:59:47 ◼   ► It's the perfect time to hear a wonderful song.

00:59:50 ◼   ► I recommend people go to lex.games and try out Lex's collection of wonderful daily games

00:59:56 ◼   ► that you can play.

00:59:57 ◼   ► It puts a ton of work into these and they're a ton of fun and you can go try them for yourself

01:00:01 ◼   ► over at lex.games.

01:00:03 ◼   ► Let me run through some headlines and we can dig into anything that you think might be

01:00:09 ◼   ► relevant because I know that you have obviously paid a lot of attention to this.

01:00:12 ◼   ► Although this came out on Halloween and then I had to go do trick-or-treaters so I didn't

01:00:17 ◼   ► write an article about it this time.

01:00:19 ◼   ► Yeah, you know.

01:00:19 ◼   ► I just, there's too much else going on.

01:00:22 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:00:22 ◼   ► Apple's revenue for the quarter.

01:00:24 ◼   ► This is Q4 which is calendar Q3.

01:00:29 ◼   ► Yeah, which means sometime probably later this week or early next week I get to do my

01:00:33 ◼   ► post where I round up the annuals because they closed their financial year.

01:00:40 ◼   ► I'm going to get to that.

01:00:42 ◼   ► I got a big pile of stuff I got to work on but that's on the list because it is their

01:00:50 ◼   ► fifth, their fiscal fourth quarter because yes it is confusing.

01:00:53 ◼   ► Their big holiday quarter is Q1 of their fiscal year not Q4.

01:00:56 ◼   ► But this is the first quarter where any iPhones from the current, like the new generation

01:01:03 ◼   ► are sold.

01:01:03 ◼   ► Just a couple weeks though.

01:01:04 ◼   ► It's never going to be a really great indicator of iPhone because it's just the first few

01:01:09 ◼   ► weeks so it's nice and this is true every time almost but really that's why again why

01:01:15 ◼   ► the holiday quarter is such a big deal is that the iPhone sales keep rolling through

01:01:19 ◼   ► October, November, December obviously and that's a big part of it.

01:01:23 ◼   ► This was a 94.9 billion in revenue which is up 6% so it is up and the Wall Street people

01:01:32 ◼   ► love to see that.

01:01:33 ◼   ► It is another all-time fourth quarter record again not huge but bigger than last time which

01:01:39 ◼   ► makes it a record.

01:01:40 ◼   ► They did in terms of their profit they are 10.2 billion shorter than they would have

01:01:46 ◼   ► been otherwise because of that European tax case.

01:01:50 ◼   ► That they had to officially write down the 10.2 billion that they had to pay Ireland.

01:01:55 ◼   ► So has that just been accepted now then?

01:01:57 ◼   ► Like they're just paying it now?

01:01:58 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:01:59 ◼   ► Okay so they're not challenging it anymore.

01:02:00 ◼   ► That was the last moment.

01:02:02 ◼   ► It was being held in escrow so it wasn't really in their hands you know exactly and it was

01:02:07 ◼   ► sitting there.

01:02:07 ◼   ► It was on their books though.

01:02:08 ◼   ► That news story was not like initial ruling that might it was final ruling you do have

01:02:13 ◼   ► to pay it and that money goes and is paid so they applied that to this in terms of you

01:02:18 ◼   ► and you only really see that in the profit number more than anything else.

01:02:21 ◼   ► Basically you know to sum this up I would say we can get into some of the details by

01:02:26 ◼   ► product category but flat it is for a for a company that is making enormous amounts of

01:02:31 ◼   ► profit every quarter it was fine right like some things were up a little some things were

01:02:38 ◼   ► down a little but Apple for the last three years has been more or less at this plateau

01:02:44 ◼   ► where they're not really enormously growing but they're also not sliding back and that

01:02:51 ◼   ► that's the thing that I always say about when you look at Apple's numbers they seem to have

01:02:55 ◼   ► these quantum leaps to a new plateau and then they stay there which is you know not necessarily

01:03:01 ◼   ► in every product category but Apple as a whole that seems to happen in the iPhone because

01:03:04 ◼   ► as the iPhone goes so goes Apple.

01:03:07 ◼   ► I think that happens with the iPhone as well and you know there are people who always want

01:03:12 ◼   ► growth growth growth every single quarter but I will say I'm impressed by the fact that

01:03:16 ◼   ► once Apple gains ground they seem to maintain it because the other way to look at this would

01:03:21 ◼   ► be imagine if Apple had a big year three years ago and since then everything had been going

01:03:27 ◼   ► down down down and they needed a new thing to go back up to those heights and that's

01:03:32 ◼   ► not really something that's happened to Apple in the last 15 years once they go up they

01:03:37 ◼   ► kind of stay there.

01:03:39 ◼   ► Yeah and I guess they hit these ceilings right for a period of time which is I think there's

01:03:44 ◼   ► there's it's logical like they sell so many products like there is a there is an effective

01:03:53 ◼   ► maximum that you can hit over a certain period of time and I should say they do increase

01:03:57 ◼   ► it they find ways to increase it but they only increase it to a point and they don't

01:04:02 ◼   ► break that for for a period of time.

01:04:04 ◼   ► To use one of my charts the year over year total revenue change I think this is instructive

01:04:08 ◼   ► about what we're talking about in fiscal 2020 if you go quarter by quarter their revenue

01:04:13 ◼   ► versus the previous year was 9% growth 1% 11% 1% so a couple that grew a little bit and

01:04:21 ◼   ► a couple that grew almost nothing fiscal 21 was 21 54 36 29 huge growth boost the following

01:04:31 ◼   ► year was 11 92 and 8 so a lot less but still some growth 23 minus 5 minus 3 minus 1 minus

01:04:41 ◼   ► 1 and 24 2 minus 4 5 6 so what you see there is huge bounce little bit of progression a

01:04:50 ◼   ► little bit of fallback and then a little bit of progression again and this seems to be

01:04:54 ◼   ► a pattern with them and yes it does sort of coincide with some new iPhones usually that

01:04:59 ◼   ► that spur iPhone sales and iPhone refresh cycle but what they're not doing is going

01:05:05 ◼   ► up 50% and then going down 40% right like that that's not what they seem to be doing

01:05:09 ◼   ► which I think is I mean that's that's what I think one of the strengths of Apple's business

01:05:14 ◼   ► over the last few years has been is when they find a new plateau they tend to stay there

01:05:18 ◼   ► you know what I just I've spoken correctly which I think makes this even more interesting

01:05:22 ◼   ► that 21 was when they were selling a lot of everything of everything yeah for sure and

01:05:30 ◼   ► then the incredible thing is so there was this like oh this is this once in a lifetime

01:05:35 ◼   ► quarter where COVID meant that people need stuff and also people have some a lot of people

01:05:40 ◼   ► have a little bit of extra money in their pocket and Apple Silicon happened at the same

01:05:43 ◼   ► time can happen so everyone's buying everything the next two years it's just they buy the

01:05:47 ◼   ► same amount right and it's like well yeah that's that's the impressive thing right is that

01:05:52 ◼   ► they did all of that and then they just kind of kept going and that that I think is one

01:05:56 ◼   ► of the most impressive things they do some product categories over that time have more

01:06:00 ◼   ► than others right like the Mac in 23 was a bloodbath right yeah so the Mac when I say

01:06:06 ◼   ► like they find a new peak and they stuck to it the Mac was growing and growing and growing

01:06:12 ◼   ► and growing and then in 22 21 22 it had its best run ever and the Mac has never gotten

01:06:20 ◼   ► back to Q4 of 2022 they've never gotten back to two years ago sales have been down since

01:06:27 ◼   ► then and they found a new level now that new level is higher than the level was before

01:06:32 ◼   ► but what they didn't do with the Mac is maintain because that really I think really was a super

01:06:37 ◼   ► buying cycle in late 20 and early 21 which again like you said it's COVID spurring a

01:06:42 ◼   ► lot of replacements it's Apple Silicon spurring a lot of replacements and it's stimulus you

01:06:49 ◼   ► know people having money or stimulus slash people not going on trips and things like

01:06:53 ◼   ► that having money to spend to do those upgrades probably again more of a once in a cycle kind

01:07:00 ◼   ► of thing and we'll see how the Mac goes but even there I feel like the Mac got a boost

01:07:05 ◼   ► they didn't come all the way back down to previous levels they're a little bit up from

01:07:08 ◼   ► that but the Mac is a good example of that yep but let's run through these real quick

01:07:12 ◼   ► so the iPhone this is for this quarter that's just passed 46.2 billion up six percent the

01:07:18 ◼   ► Mac 7.7 billion up two percent the iPad 7 billion up eight percent so that's all good

01:07:25 ◼   ► right that doesn't always happen right iPad you know this is what happens when they release

01:07:30 ◼   ► new iPads yeah is they had two quarters of growth after having five straight quarters

01:07:34 ◼   ► of no growth yep of loss of growth year over year so this is the iPad pro right that has

01:07:39 ◼   ► done this and mostly we would expect right it's like a truly yeah and just continuing

01:07:45 ◼   ► to have refreshed the iPad line in q3 right that the iPad didn't have updates for a year

01:07:50 ◼   ► and now they've got some new machines that are out there new devices that people can

01:07:54 ◼   ► buy and I think that's a winner for them the air and the and the pro wearables home and

01:07:59 ◼   ► accessories at nine billion down three percent yeah that's that's a case of a product category

01:08:05 ◼   ► that was a huge growth driver in through 21 and 22 it you know it hit the wall and now

01:08:14 ◼   ► it's been kind of like flat to a little down since then which is really interesting and

01:08:18 ◼   ► that's not that's that's primarily I think Apple watch and AirPods now AirPods has been

01:08:23 ◼   ► pretty quiet until recently right so we might see that jump up in the q1 results and then

01:08:28 ◼   ► we'll see about Apple watch they keep saying that they're getting a lot of people that

01:08:31 ◼   ► are new to Apple watch I think that they're I think the Apple watch replacement cycle

01:08:34 ◼   ► has also gotten a lot longer remember those early Apple watches got felt really outmoded

01:08:39 ◼   ► and dated really fast and honestly I did finally upgrade my my Apple watch but even for me

01:08:45 ◼   ► a tech person it took me I think three years to do it which is and I didn't need to do

01:08:52 ◼   ► it I fancied the new thinness of it and I wanted to do all of that but like I think

01:08:58 ◼   ► that the Apple watch cycle is just getting wider they do they do keep saying that they're

01:09:01 ◼   ► getting a lot of new people to Apple watch which is great that's good for the long term

01:09:05 ◼   ► installed base even if it's you know even if the longer cycles are hard for them but

01:09:11 ◼   ► wearables yes wearables was a an up-and-coming growth every quarter kind of category and

01:09:17 ◼   ► it's now it's now not so you know o2b whoever is in charge of that area they're feeling

01:09:23 ◼   ► the heat a little bit I would wonder if it's a tough compare like I don't know if

01:09:27 ◼   ► maybe the maybe the introduction of AirPods 4 might like save that and then it'll be like

01:09:33 ◼   ► oh don't worry about it was just when the products were announced who knows I I'm going

01:09:38 ◼   ► to be curious to see how their holiday quarter did because if we think about wearables as

01:09:41 ◼   ► maybe being a little more seasonal than some of other Apple stuff they had a peak at 14.7

01:09:48 ◼   ► billion in 22 and they were down 1% in 23 and down 11% in 24 to 12 billion so the question

01:09:59 ◼   ► is are they where they going to be are they going to be below that 12 billion of last

01:10:03 ◼   ► year they gonna are they going to turn it around and and have some really nice holiday

01:10:06 ◼   ► sales we'll see and services 25 billion up 12% yeah services you know new new services

01:10:16 ◼   ► record because every quarter almost is a new services record I would say there was a period

01:10:21 ◼   ► in there again that same inflationary period the same sort of 21 where they were they were

01:10:26 ◼   ► growing more than 20% every single quarter year over year and before and after that for

01:10:31 ◼   ► a little bit they were in the teens and and and this year has been interesting because

01:10:35 ◼   ► it's it they last year was down in single digits this year has been back up in the double

01:10:41 ◼   ► digits but just barely so this was a up 12% so growing a little bit slower than they did

01:10:49 ◼   ► at their peak but growing a little bit faster than they did last year at this time so you

01:10:54 ◼   ► know services keeps going up it will be quite a thing when it stops going up but that hasn't

01:10:59 ◼   ► happened yet maybe it will never happen I don't know but never say never but it's still

01:11:04 ◼   ► it's still chugging away while we're in earnings let's talk about some M&A knows okay

01:11:10 ◼   ► Apple have invested 1.1 billion into global stars satellite networks this is the company

01:11:17 ◼   ► that provides the satellite SOS stuff for Apple they're also taking an ownership stake

01:11:21 ◼   ► in the company interesting why not right like make this an important part of the of the

01:11:28 ◼   ► puzzle and then this one was actually the shocking one pixelmator the company behind

01:11:36 ◼   ► pixelmator and photomator they've been acquired by Apple.

01:11:39 ◼   ► That is this is what I would say is like it is shocking but not surprising because they

01:11:48 ◼   ► are the most Apple like soft that is I think pixelmator is the most Apple like piece of

01:11:54 ◼   ► software that is made not by Apple like if you just use it it's like oh this really just

01:12:00 ◼   ► feels like and looks like what aperture should be today of our and or a Photoshop by Photoshop

01:12:10 ◼   ► yeah and I I am fascinated to try and work out what the plan here is like are is Apple

01:12:18 ◼   ► building planning to build Photoshop like do they want Photoshop now like is that what

01:12:25 ◼   ► they're looking to do here is final cut logic pro and then pixelmator if it keeps that name

01:12:32 ◼   ► is that their Photoshop competitor is that what they're going for I so yeah what like

01:12:39 ◼   ► what what what could they be doing one is talent I guess right aqua hire you're gonna

01:12:45 ◼   ► get the developers who make this stuff I don't know I mean yes I don't I don't mean to demean

01:12:51 ◼   ► them by saying it that way but like there it's a lot of money to spend when you could

01:12:54 ◼   ► just hire people yeah but they want to get all the code when I first saw this I thought

01:13:02 ◼   ► well you know the photo mater stuff would really help bulk up photos they have been

01:13:10 ◼   ► doing machine learning based adjustments for a long time there there's more to photo mater

01:13:16 ◼   ► than sort of in photos and I could see them kind of using those people in that code to

01:13:20 ◼   ► upgrade the photos editing experience I think that's true but pixel mater is the big one

01:13:26 ◼   ► here and I I if I want to be optimistic I look at it and think pixel mater could become

01:13:34 ◼   ► a thing that joins logic and final cut as an Apple Pro app while they also kind of make

01:13:42 ◼   ► photos better with the photo mater stuff that's my positive outlook my negative outlook would

01:13:50 ◼   ► be sometimes well how should I put this Apple doesn't care how much you like pixel mater

01:13:58 ◼   ► right they don't care they care about whatever matters to them strategically you know so

01:14:04 ◼   ► the the danger here is Apple wants the people they want some of the technology and they

01:14:09 ◼   ► got plans to roll it out and pixel mater as a product doesn't interest them they want

01:14:16 ◼   ► the people and maybe some of the code base and they're going to integrate it into place

01:14:20 ◼   ► is that might frustrate fans of pixel mater users of pixel mater like maybe they're just

01:14:26 ◼   ► going to update photos and the camera app and the photography pipeline of iPhone and

01:14:32 ◼   ► maybe some of their other apps like freeform and you know I don't know pages and keynote

01:14:40 ◼   ► and and that would be fine if they think that that's what they want to do strategically

01:14:46 ◼   ► but if you're a user of pixel mater your your app is eventually going to disappear you know

01:14:52 ◼   ► but but I don't know I mean I hope it's not that I hope it is that Apple has decided this

01:14:59 ◼   ► app is already kind of up to our standards and this other app has been doing stuff that

01:15:04 ◼   ► we're struggling to get into photos even now and that maybe maybe this app should just

01:15:10 ◼   ► be one of our pro apps and we can put it on a you know pro app subscription just like

01:15:14 ◼   ► that maybe start building a bundle and that's that's great like having photos pro or whatever

01:15:20 ◼   ► they want to call it because I don't think pixel mater is going to be the name I could

01:15:24 ◼   ► see that I just I I worry I don't want to be negative about this so much but I do want

01:15:30 ◼   ► to say I worry that we all view it from a customer's perspective which is fine but like

01:15:35 ◼   ► Apple is a big creature that does things for reasons it's like a dragon in Lord of the

01:15:41 ◼   ► Rings or something like it does things that we don't understand like for reasons we mirror

01:15:46 ◼   ► humans do not understand and and that's a bummer but like they have their reasons they

01:15:52 ◼   ► have the reasons that they might want to just take pixel mater and eat it and things from

01:15:58 ◼   ► it go places but pixel mater itself as a product just vanishes so I want to put that out there

01:16:05 ◼   ► as a possibility but my hope is that they do something more than that and that they

01:16:11 ◼   ► do something more like what they did with shortcuts yeah that's that's where my gut

01:16:15 ◼   ► leans at this product that they are act they want this to actually build a product like

01:16:19 ◼   ► that Apple has a product I have two things for I think this thing one I agree like you

01:16:24 ◼   ► know the stuff that they're doing with photo major and stuff like that is great but like

01:16:27 ◼   ► realistically I don't know how different this is to what Apple could just do on their own

01:16:32 ◼   ► right I don't really get much of a sense they would need to build a team to make a pro photo

01:16:37 ◼   ► app and they've got it they can just buy a team and an app I mean it's what they did

01:16:42 ◼   ► with logic and final cut too right those are both purchases but that's kind of what I'm

01:16:45 ◼   ► saying is it's more gonna be more I believe that a product either pixel mate or a photo

01:16:51 ◼   ► mate or I think more likely pixel mater will become the foundation of a product that Apple

01:16:56 ◼   ► is going to make that that's what I think this is because I and I feel like they wanted

01:17:01 ◼   ► pixel major I was like this is a fantastic starting point with some people that know

01:17:05 ◼   ► what they're doing and so I see this as more of a workflow turning into shortcuts than

01:17:10 ◼   ► a somebody someone in the chat I think it was Matt in the chat asked yeah yeah rather

01:17:15 ◼   ► than a dark sky becoming just the like just it's like we just want your algorithm or whatever

01:17:23 ◼   ► to yeah to make I hope so I mean it is not aperture right it's Photoshop aperture was

01:17:30 ◼   ► a little bit different aperture was kind of Lightroom with some Photoshop in it this feels

01:17:34 ◼   ► more like you know Photoshop kind of thing but having it be an Apple Pro app that's good

01:17:40 ◼   ► and it's gonna reach more people because it's from Apple and Apple's marketing is behind

01:17:43 ◼   ► it and they can and and they're gonna reach more people and it's another tool to highlight

01:17:48 ◼   ► for professionals on their platforms I also wonder a little bit this thought just occurred

01:17:52 ◼   ► to me if if in their pro workflows team there were a lot of things emerging from that where

01:17:58 ◼   ► they're like why don't we just have pixel mater pixel mater is so great I 100% believe

01:18:03 ◼   ► that this is where that conversation would have begun right because it fits that team

01:18:07 ◼   ► the only question mark I have on this is why not procreate like if that's the scenario

01:18:15 ◼   ► because I have been told procreate is the most popular iPad app right right right like

01:18:23 ◼   ► the most popular app on the iPad app store is procreate like it is the most used app

01:18:28 ◼   ► on iPad like out of all of the apps that are built specifically for iPad procreate is the

01:18:32 ◼   ► biggest one sure now they use it and they use it a demo fodder constantly and so I just

01:18:39 ◼   ► find that interesting not that I think that it's this instead of that but like maybe they've

01:18:44 ◼   ► already had this conversation with procreate and procreate didn't want to do it you know

01:18:48 ◼   ► yeah Joe Rosenstiel says that that's a different product it's more for illustration yeah but

01:18:52 ◼   ► I'm just saying like companies that Apple would acquire is what I mean right if they

01:18:57 ◼   ► wanted to take on Adobe there are a few ways they could do it I don't know if they want

01:19:00 ◼   ► to take on Adobe or if they felt like this was a missing piece because they're so into

01:19:04 ◼   ► photography right and I wonder if I also wonder if there are times when they're developing

01:19:09 ◼   ► features for the iPhone especially the iPhone pro pro features and then they integrate them

01:19:15 ◼   ► into photos and they're like why do we have to stuff pro features into photos it's not

01:19:23 ◼   ► a pro product and I wonder if that might have been part of this too which is like we really

01:19:28 ◼   ► need a product for our photography our professional photography features that we've got and photos

01:19:35 ◼   ► isn't it because photos is meant to be a consumer photo editing product and the more yes the

01:19:40 ◼   ► more stuff we do the harder it's going to be to jam that stuff into photos where it

01:19:45 ◼   ► doesn't belong why don't we just have a pro photos app and if you're going to do that

01:19:49 ◼   ► what is the best fit and it's pixelmator and I think that makes unless I wanted to go get

01:19:54 ◼   ► like acorn or something like I mean there's there's some choices here.

01:19:57 ◼   ► - Pixelmate is the right move for Apple. - I think it is I think it's a it makes sense

01:20:01 ◼   ► it it feels like an Apple product there's lots of things about it that that fit but

01:20:07 ◼   ► you know if they wanted to take on Adobe which you know they would get you know there'd be

01:20:12 ◼   ► antitrust investigations and all sorts of things but like there are other things they

01:20:15 ◼   ► could do there's serif right but like I that's why I think this feels more targeted like

01:20:23 ◼   ► I could see them doing procreate as well if they really wanted to but I'm not sure their

01:20:31 ◼   ► ambitions are in the procreate illustration painting kind of end but I we all know how

01:20:38 ◼   ► important photography is to Apple because it's important to the iPhone and it's a driver

01:20:42 ◼   ► of iPhone sales and iPhone is number one at Apple by a long shot and so for all of those

01:20:47 ◼   ► reasons bulking up your photography software makes sense.

01:20:52 ◼   ► - So I would just say this is a note this just the serif the company makes affinity

01:20:57 ◼   ► was bought by Canva earlier this year so they couldn't.

01:21:01 ◼   ► - Okay there you go so not for not for sale I don't think they would want them anyway

01:21:04 ◼   ► because I think that that would call too much attention to being that's too much directly

01:21:08 ◼   ► taking on Adobe yeah I don't know who owns procreate or if they're out there on their

01:21:12 ◼   ► own because I could see that but again if we're talking about like what is core to Apple

01:21:18 ◼   ► that would make a notoriously reluctant to do this kind of thing company to do by high

01:21:24 ◼   ► profile third-party software say yes to pixel mater to me it comes back to iPhone photography

01:21:32 ◼   ► is an important differentiator and they keep making pro features on these iPhones that

01:21:37 ◼   ► cost you know more than a thousand dollars and advertising the pro features and they

01:21:42 ◼   ► have final cut and they have photos and and that is what I keep coming back to as as maybe

01:21:48 ◼   ► the rationale for doing this is photos is not what you should be doing if you're trying

01:21:53 ◼   ► to get the pro photography story across.

01:21:56 ◼   ► - They do mention subject to regulatory approval.

01:21:59 ◼   ► - Of course of course it seems like there's so much competition in this area that I don't

01:22:03 ◼   ► think it's gonna be an issue but yeah of course.

01:22:06 ◼   ► - I say genuinely like congratulations to them I think it's amazing I think they deserve

01:22:10 ◼   ► it and I hope that it goes well for everybody involved.

01:22:14 ◼   ► - And photo mater I love so I hope that there's room for that technology in the photos app

01:22:17 ◼   ► because I think that they've done a really good job with some of that stuff and I would

01:22:21 ◼   ► love more friendly photo editing features in in photos but we'll see.

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01:24:32 ◼   ► time for some ask upgrade questions first one comes from Tim this is a complicated question

01:24:40 ◼   ► but I'm allay I don't know I hope not I also hope not considering the question okay all

01:24:46 ◼   ► right planning to replace two older Macs of a single new MacBook Pro I need to consolidate

01:24:52 ◼   ► the data from both of these Macs into one so into the new one can you recommend an approach

01:24:58 ◼   ► for this kind of migration normally I just use migration assistant but I don't sure if

01:25:02 ◼   ► it can handle this particular use case well this is a tough one yeah it's interesting

01:25:08 ◼   ► right you you what I would say is if you've got one Mac that you like better than the

01:25:13 ◼   ► other migrate that one first but you can migrate the other one to a different user which will

01:25:19 ◼   ► get that user data migrated over and so that is that is what I would do and then you may

01:25:27 ◼   ► need to do some manual stuff but that that think about that right you can migrate multiple

01:25:32 ◼   ► times to a Mac and what it'll do is it'll have you create a different if they're the

01:25:36 ◼   ► same username it will have you move that user to a different username but I believe it will

01:25:41 ◼   ► still migrate all your stuff so that's what I would try the alternative is to do it piecemeal

01:25:49 ◼   ► and you're going to be doing that anyway there's no merge concept but what would be nice is

01:25:54 ◼   ► if you've migrated both of those users to your new Mac you can gradually move things

01:26:01 ◼   ► over that are in the other user directory to where you want them and do it that way

01:26:07 ◼   ► that that's one approach the other approach would be to clone the one clone the secondary

01:26:13 ◼   ► Mac to an external drive and keep it around and then over time as you find yourself needing

01:26:19 ◼   ► things from the secondary Mac have that drive available and then copy them over if you if

01:26:25 ◼   ► you depending on how you work you could do it piecemeal and you'll bring over the stuff

01:26:30 ◼   ► you need and not the rest of it it gets complicated if you've got preferences and stuff like that

01:26:36 ◼   ► I have definitely done that thing where I have selected a whole bunch of preferences

01:26:40 ◼   ► in user folder library preference preferences or application support and just like selected

01:26:49 ◼   ► a bunch of stuff and copied it over because the apps didn't have the right preferences

01:26:54 ◼   ► it's a pain but you can do it but to get it all in one place I think that's where I would

01:26:58 ◼   ► start is is do that now Steve in our in our discord suggests an app called file side that

01:27:07 ◼   ► does a that has a merge feature there may be some other features out there I don't think

01:27:12 ◼   ► you need a utility for this I would I would use my other than migration assistant so that's

01:27:17 ◼   ► what I if this were me and I need to go from two to one I'd pick my winner migrate everything

01:27:22 ◼   ► from that first migrate the other user from the other computer second and and then pick

01:27:29 ◼   ► and choose as I need to because it'll all be on my drive as long as it fits yeah I feel

01:27:33 ◼   ► like you've got to pick your canonical to do the migration assistant right so like what

01:27:37 ◼   ► is the machine that's going to have all your preferences do that yeah and then then locate

01:27:41 ◼   ► your data and move that and so like you might I might recommend using a tool like daisy

01:27:48 ◼   ► disk or clean my mac to like where is the data on my machine like and make sure you're

01:27:54 ◼   ► moving it across it's going to take a long time but that's that's what I would do I would

01:27:58 ◼   ► want to do it manually like the first one by migration assistant and then move on your

01:28:03 ◼   ► own yeah there are a bunch of merging utilities I would merge personally I would I would do

01:28:09 ◼   ► it piecemeal I I'm a I'm a big believer in that idea that you know like you do a first

01:28:15 ◼   ► pass and say I'm going to copy all this stuff over these apps these documents whatever you

01:28:19 ◼   ► could do that and that's pretty straightforward yeah but if you're if you're thinking about

01:28:22 ◼   ► like app preferences and things like that I would wait and see when you need those app

01:28:27 ◼   ► preferences and then figure out where you know where they live and again you're going

01:28:31 ◼   ► to be dipping into the library folder and I know that's annoying but like that's how

01:28:37 ◼   ► you do that if you get to that point and I would not yeah wholesale merge by an SSD and

01:28:42 ◼   ► do a clone of the machine that is not the migrated machine yeah and just leave them

01:28:48 ◼   ► and keep it around yeah I think that that's another great way to do it that's I had a

01:28:51 ◼   ► disastrous something computer something a year ago where I did a I did a wipe on my

01:28:58 ◼   ► Mac studio instead and what I ended up having was I had the clone and I just spent about

01:29:04 ◼   ► a week hitting a wall where I'd be like oh that didn't come over and copying it off the

01:29:09 ◼   ► SSD and until after a few weeks I was done and I had everything that I needed and then

01:29:17 ◼   ► I was I was done with that so that's what I'd recommend.

01:29:20 ◼   ► Logan writes in to say do you think that if John Turner succeeds Tim Cook's CEO he will

01:29:26 ◼   ► be more involved with the product development design Tim has reportedly stayed away from

01:29:31 ◼   ► the product group but John has been in charge of hardware engineering and knows these products

01:29:35 ◼   ► on a different level than Cook ever could with John's introduction of the Mac lineup

01:29:39 ◼   ► this week it had me thinking that he would be a better CEO when it comes to products.

01:29:45 ◼   ► What we learned when Tim Cook came up took over from Steve Jobs is Apple CEO needs to

01:29:51 ◼   ► be themselves because nobody can be Steve Jobs and nobody can be Tim Cook Tim Cook mr.

01:30:00 ◼   ► roommates very efficient fellow all about the supply chain.

01:30:05 ◼   ► One changed group chat that I that we have with us two Federico and John is changed to

01:30:11 ◼   ► roommates to roommates makes sense makes sense yeah Tim Cook is uh he's he is he's got his

01:30:18 ◼   ► skills and he his other thing that he's got as CEO is to lean on other people who are

01:30:23 ◼   ► very talented this is a good way to be an executive is you can't do it all even Steve

01:30:29 ◼   ► Jobs couldn't do it all right Steve Jobs had a unique skills but then there was also an

01:30:35 ◼   ► organization supporting all the things that he was not good at and there were a lot of

01:30:39 ◼   ► them involving you know different parts of management and people and business and all

01:30:44 ◼   ► of that including the stuff Tim Cook did yep and the stuff the CFO did yeah so yes I think

01:30:51 ◼   ► if John Ternus became the CEO of Apple he would absolutely be more involved than opinionated

01:30:57 ◼   ► about aspects of product development and technology decisions because that seems to be his thing

01:31:04 ◼   ► that's him good yeah and that he will then rely on if he becomes a CEO he will rely on

01:31:11 ◼   ► an operations person like Steve Jobs did to do and Tim Cook does too right but Tim Cook

01:31:17 ◼   ► has some unique viewpoints into operations that John Ternus might not I I get the feeling

01:31:23 ◼   ► that Jeff Williams no I'm convinced of this Jeff Williams is not as involved in the operations

01:31:31 ◼   ► as Tim Cook was for jobs like I'm I would be convinced that Tim Cook still has quite

01:31:39 ◼   ► a hand in that organization because that's his thing right like there's an argument that

01:31:43 ◼   ► you know Tim Cook is the CEO can't be the COO anymore but he's more COO than Steve Jobs

01:31:50 ◼   ► was and that perhaps Jeff Williams is a little less COO than Tim Cook was because Tim Cook

01:31:58 ◼   ► has a little bit of focus on that and which is not and again it's this is tough this is

01:32:04 ◼   ► management stuff right this is I know all about this but it's your job on one level

01:32:11 ◼   ► yes you need to let them do their job on another level though you may have some unique insights

01:32:16 ◼   ► into that job so you need to get a good shorthand with the person who has your old job where

01:32:23 ◼   ► you can provide your insights while not becoming the COO because it is their job and because

01:32:28 ◼   ► you've got a different job now right so it's there's there's a dynamic there but I do think

01:32:32 ◼   ► that it's true that it that despite the fact that Tim Cook is the CEO and has been for

01:32:38 ◼   ► a long time now Apple's structure has taken on a little bit of the flavor of we have a

01:32:46 ◼   ► CEO who's really good at operations right and that's fine and so if John Ternus is the

01:32:52 ◼   ► CEO or anybody else ideally they will have that kind of flavor and yes would that be

01:32:58 ◼   ► a little more of a Steve Jobs vibe than Tim Cook it would because I think that John Ternus

01:33:04 ◼   ► would be more connected to the products than Tim is but in the end to be a good CEO you

01:33:11 ◼   ► also have to build a team and rely on other people and identify the right people and that's

01:33:17 ◼   ► the part that that anybody who succeeds Tim Cook is going to be tested on but they will

01:33:21 ◼   ► be able to lean on whatever their area of expertise is.

01:33:24 ◼   ► Yeah I absolutely agree like I think it I don't think it's fair to say better I just

01:33:29 ◼   ► think it's different right like that John Ternus would be a more focused a product focused

01:33:35 ◼   ► CEO but realistically are we not assuming that he would have the same input on the products

01:33:42 ◼   ► as he currently does under Tim Cook as the CEO?

01:33:46 ◼   ► And don't forget the legacy of the people who've built the teams around them right I

01:33:49 ◼   ► mean we know we like Johnny all Johnny Ives people have left all right but but let me

01:33:54 ◼   ► a better example like Johnny Ives philosophy is still there Steve Jobs's philosophy is

01:33:59 ◼   ► still there a product design even though Tim Cook's not a product design guy his philosophy

01:34:03 ◼   ► is still there when Tim Cook retires his philosophy that he built that Steve Jobs brought him

01:34:08 ◼   ► in to build when Apple was incredibly undisciplined at the operation side and and and remember

01:34:14 ◼   ► the volume that Apple does now is nothing like when even when Tim Cook took over that

01:34:19 ◼   ► operations machine will continue to run and it's going to be the imprint of Tim Cook these

01:34:24 ◼   ► CEOs and their lieutenants but especially the CEOs leave their imprint on the company

01:34:30 ◼   ► when they go so does that mean that if you had somebody like John Ternus involved that

01:34:36 ◼   ► there might be a little more product forward focus sure I think that you're only human

01:34:45 ◼   ► and that and that you know you could maybe even argue that at different times in Apple's

01:34:50 ◼   ► lifespan it needs a CEO with a different focus but they can't lose sight of the rest of it

01:34:56 ◼   ► a wartime consigliere is what they need like I was thinking you know like it's it's very

01:35:04 ◼   ► like romanticized over time and I think for a lot of good reason that like Jobs I have

01:35:09 ◼   ► was this design powerhouse right and like Bill Apple into this company that's so focused

01:35:14 ◼   ► around design but the Cook-Williams era is this operations powerhouse that as you said

01:35:21 ◼   ► has turned Apple from a medium company a big company into the biggest company right like

01:35:29 ◼   ► it doesn't matter how good the products are if you can't make them at the scale needed

01:35:35 ◼   ► to sell them and that's what Cook and Williams have done yes but what that means is that

01:35:38 ◼   ► if Ternus takes over he has to inherit the operations powerhouse somebody's to do that

01:35:45 ◼   ► because you can't just be like I'm a product CEO so we're not going to make as many products

01:35:49 ◼   ► now no that doesn't that's not how it works in the same way that no matter what you think

01:35:55 ◼   ► about what Apple's products have been like in the last 20 years or whatever I have a

01:35:58 ◼   ► long he's been CEO now it's not 20 years it's 15 I have no idea they still had to inherit

01:36:05 ◼   ► the design philosophy and push that forward they couldn't just be like we're going to

01:36:09 ◼   ► make now the most operationally efficient product no they also had to look good and

01:36:17 ◼   ► sometimes at I'm sure well the disadvantage of trying to make these things as operationally

01:36:23 ◼   ► efficient as they could be so here's a thing that that has stuck with me and forgive me

01:36:29 ◼   ► because we're on the precipice of a presidential election in the u.s. but I'm going to quote

01:36:33 ◼   ► a former president of the why would you why would you invoke that here why would you why

01:36:37 ◼   ► would you do well because it's it's relevant to this because we're talking about CEOs the

01:36:40 ◼   ► whole way no you know no no but but this is this is relevant so but it's it's I'm going

01:36:46 ◼   ► to quote Barack Obama here and it's it's super relevant which is somebody was asking him

01:36:53 ◼   ► about the job of being president and he said every decision that comes to your desk as

01:36:57 ◼   ► president and this is true of Apple CEO too is not well 74 70 30 60 40 like everybody

01:37:06 ◼   ► agrees we should do this but you know but what do you think that's not what happens

01:37:11 ◼   ► when you're president the United States and it's not what happens when you're CEO of Apple

01:37:14 ◼   ► everything Obama said is 59 41 sorry again is boy let's do that again it's Monday morning

01:37:22 ◼   ► Mike sometimes it's hard math is hard everything he said is 51 49 everything is 50.5 49.5 yeah

01:37:32 ◼   ► you come to the boss when there's a decision to be made and there's no clear decision you've

01:37:38 ◼   ► gotta make the decision that's where the buck stops the Oval Office and at whatever they

01:37:44 ◼   ► call Tim Cook's airy well-lit apple pork desk is the I don't know what that's called Tim's

01:37:52 ◼   ► office this is Tim and that that is the thing right so like part of being CEO is to make

01:37:59 ◼   ► the trains run on time get the products going rely on your people who are incredibly talented

01:38:03 ◼   ► make sure they're being paid well making sure they're being treated well a lot of that is

01:38:07 ◼   ► that what it comes down to and I think we ascribe maybe too much in some cases but but

01:38:12 ◼   ► where it comes down to in the end is that person at that desk when it comes time to

01:38:18 ◼   ► do are we going to do this or not and everybody's split it's like this is going to be a big

01:38:22 ◼   ► investment we think it's risky but we think we should do it but these people think we

01:38:27 ◼   ► shouldn't do it what should we do if everybody agrees like it's great let's do it then you

01:38:31 ◼   ► know the CEO doesn't have to do anything it's the hard decisions that matter and that doesn't

01:38:38 ◼   ► that does affect the future of the company it really does and you can't always tell what

01:38:46 ◼   ► it's going to be and it's not and so the the difference from going to Tim Cook versus John

01:38:51 ◼   ► Turness or Steve Jobs or whoever else is going to be in those moments and I do think that

01:38:58 ◼   ► those decisions are informed by their particular knowledge you should be knowledgeable about

01:39:03 ◼   ► the entire business but I do think that there is sometimes a sense that some of the hard

01:39:07 ◼   ► decisions Apple has made during the Tim Cook era were being made by a guy who was aware

01:39:14 ◼   ► of Steve Jobs product legacy and also aware of all the necessities of running a business

01:39:20 ◼   ► at the scale that Apple has become and then Tim Cook has to sit there and think do I want

01:39:26 ◼   ► to do this product do I want to make this decision because I know a lot about the operations

01:39:31 ◼   ► and I'm also putting on faith you know in my trust in my people about the product side

01:39:35 ◼   ► of it and he has to synthesize that and a John Turness would be the other way he would

01:39:41 ◼   ► know more probably about the product side of it and the engineering side of it and would

01:39:47 ◼   ► need to rely on the trust or faith in the people on the operation side or wherever to

01:39:52 ◼   ► make that decision and that's you know at the end of the day that's what we're talking

01:39:57 ◼   ► about is is to be a CEO is to make those difficult decisions and they do reflect you but also

01:40:04 ◼   ► hopefully they reflect the team you've built and the trust that you've engendered across

01:40:09 ◼   ► them so I this is a long non-answer in in some ways because it's like no CEO is going

01:40:15 ◼   ► to come in and say all the pro products are gonna have colors now right they're not gonna

01:40:20 ◼   ► do that they're not gonna do that but it does matter who the CEO is.

01:40:25 ◼   ► - Yeah I'm gonna put a link in the show notes to a video that I actually quite enjoyed from

01:40:29 ◼   ► the Wall Street Journal they have like a series called like the job interview and they they

01:40:35 ◼   ► Tim Cook was on that and it's like an eight minute video and he's talking about a few

01:40:42 ◼   ► few questions he talks about Steve a little bit you know he talks about like kind of his

01:40:46 ◼   ► philosophy and and like how he feels about operations it's a nice video see I like when

01:40:53 ◼   ► people can kind of break him out of the PR answers right because it's just not he's not

01:40:57 ◼   ► really talking about products one of the main reasons I bring this up here is I'm manifesting

01:41:01 ◼   ► a new life goal that I have all right okay this out there and this came up a little bit

01:41:06 ◼   ► unconnected and I'm putting it out there again now I want to interview Tim Cook and talk

01:41:13 ◼   ► to him purely about how he works that's what I want to speak to him about I want to ask

01:41:18 ◼   ► him about how he deals with email how much email does he see I want to know how does

01:41:25 ◼   ► he like to meet with people does he like to meet in person how does that work I had thought

01:41:30 ◼   ► of a question this morning because now this is in my brain now is the thing that I want

01:41:33 ◼   ► a question I had this morning which pops into my mind is how often do you work on your own

01:41:39 ◼   ► do you ever work on your own or are there always people working with you right does

01:41:45 ◼   ► he does Tim Cook ever sit in an office in front of a computer and work on his own and

01:41:50 ◼   ► if he does what work is that you know like these are the questions I want to ask him

01:41:55 ◼   ► because I think it would be fascinating so I'm just putting this out there all right

01:42:00 ◼   ► I just want to talk to him we'll see what happens yeah yeah I have those moments where

01:42:04 ◼   ► I think I think wouldn't it be interesting to talk to somebody about and there's usually

01:42:09 ◼   ► somebody who's a better fit because it's it's it's about a subject where there's specialized

01:42:14 ◼   ► media for that this is an example where we are the specialized media for that so that's

01:42:18 ◼   ► I keep you know dare to dream I would love I would love that maybe we could get if not

01:42:24 ◼   ► from Tim Cook let's let's uh get it from John Turnus or oh I would love to speak to I would

01:42:30 ◼   ► like to speak to anybody at Apple about these specific about how they how they actually

01:42:35 ◼   ► use this because I also genuinely think it would be more interesting than the other types

01:42:42 ◼   ► of interviews that these people have to do yeah because I would just like to understand

01:42:48 ◼   ► if you are the CEO of the world's most powerful company potentially the big come whatever

01:42:53 ◼   ► I think Apple's the most powerful company in the world but if you're the CEO of that

01:42:55 ◼   ► company what do you what is your actual work like I'd be intrigued anyway if you would

01:43:01 ◼   ► like to send in your feedback follow up and questions go to upgradefeedback.com where

01:43:06 ◼   ► you can always send that in we appreciate you you can check out Jason's work at sixcolors.com

01:43:10 ◼   ► you can hear him at the incomparable.com and here on Relay where you'll find me too you

01:43:15 ◼   ► can check out my work at cortexbrand.com you can find us online Jason is @jsnell j s n

01:43:21 ◼   ► e double l i m i m i m y k e you can watch clips of the show on TikTok Instagram and

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01:43:40 ◼   ► the show but most of all thank you for listening we'll be back next week until then say goodbye

01:43:45 ◼   ► Jason Snow goodbye draft champion Mike Hurley oh thank you

01:43:56 ◼   ► You