Upgrade

00:00:00 ◼   ► (upbeat music)

00:00:02 ◼   ► From Relay, this is Upgrade, episode 537

00:00:12 ◼   ► for November 11th, 2024.

00:00:14 ◼   ► Today's show is brought to you by Delete.me,

00:00:17 ◼   ► Ooni Pizza Ovens, Vitaly and SmarterWorld.

00:00:20 ◼   ► My name is Mike Hurley and I have the pleasure, as always,

00:00:22 ◼   ► of being joined by Jason Snell.

00:00:23 ◼   ► Hi, Jason.

00:00:25 ◼   ► Hi, Mike Hurley.

00:00:26 ◼   ► Isn't it nice that we say the date of our recording

00:00:29 ◼   ► at the top of the show?

00:00:30 ◼   ► I like it. I like it.

00:00:31 ◼   ► I think it's a nice, nice addition, a nice addition.

00:00:34 ◼   ► Some podcasts don't seem to want to do it.

00:00:36 ◼   ► I don't understand it at all.

00:00:37 ◼   ► Weird, weird.

00:00:39 ◼   ► It is strange.

00:00:40 ◼   ► I have a Snell Talk question for you.

00:00:41 ◼   ► It comes from John and John wants to know,

00:00:43 ◼   ► Jason, have you ever, or do you ever write fiction

00:00:46 ◼   ► in any form?

00:00:48 ◼   ► Would you like to?

00:00:48 ◼   ► And if so, what kind?

00:00:50 ◼   ► I have, I wrote a lot of short stories

00:00:56 ◼   ► in high school and college.

00:00:59 ◼   ► I wrote three novels for National Novel Writing Month.

00:01:01 ◼   ► They're in a, well, they're not in a drawer.

00:01:03 ◼   ► They're in a folder in my Dropbox called novels.

00:01:06 ◼   ► Kind of a drawer.

00:01:07 ◼   ► But that's, it's like a drawer.

00:01:09 ◼   ► And what I'd like to do is revise one of those.

00:01:13 ◼   ► But what I found is that when you go out on your own,

00:01:17 ◼   ► devoting time, you've got the time to spend,

00:01:19 ◼   ► but devoting the time to a project

00:01:21 ◼   ► that will probably never amount to anything

00:01:23 ◼   ► and not generate any money for your family

00:01:26 ◼   ► is really difficult for me to do.

00:01:28 ◼   ► - Unless you really, really want to, right?

00:01:30 ◼   ► Like maybe you don't really, really want to.

00:01:33 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:01:34 ◼   ► - Even then though, like when I was at IDG,

00:01:36 ◼   ► I would come home in November

00:01:38 ◼   ► and I would just like go sequester myself and write.

00:01:41 ◼   ► Like, but now it's sort of like, I don't know.

00:01:44 ◼   ► Do I, do I expend my writing energy on a project

00:01:48 ◼   ► that will probably not like,

00:01:50 ◼   ► there's always another post I could do.

00:01:52 ◼   ► And this is something I struggle with.

00:01:53 ◼   ► There's always another podcast I could prep for

00:01:55 ◼   ► or post I could write for Six Colors,

00:01:57 ◼   ► or there's a backlog of things at Six Colors.

00:02:00 ◼   ► And I think, well, am I gonna push back?

00:02:01 ◼   ► Like this last two months, right?

00:02:03 ◼   ► Really from August where the betas

00:02:06 ◼   ► are getting close to wrapping up

00:02:08 ◼   ► through the iPhone announcements and the OS releases.

00:02:11 ◼   ► And then we had our Mac releases.

00:02:14 ◼   ► This is the busiest time of the year.

00:02:16 ◼   ► And like, there's never a moment,

00:02:18 ◼   ► even though I've had things on my calendar saying,

00:02:19 ◼   ► you should write, work on the book right now,

00:02:21 ◼   ► that I just haven't done it because I can't,

00:02:25 ◼   ► I feel irresponsible doing it.

00:02:27 ◼   ► That said, I'm hoping that I will actually get back to that

00:02:29 ◼   ► and do at least a draft that I'm happier with.

00:02:34 ◼   ► But I've given myself a little bit of a deadline for that.

00:02:38 ◼   ► But the short version is yes.

00:02:40 ◼   ► And in what form, like I said,

00:02:42 ◼   ► I wrote short stories when I was in high school and college.

00:02:44 ◼   ► I've written three novels

00:02:45 ◼   ► because I started doing that for NaNoWriMo.

00:02:47 ◼   ► And they're genre-wise, they're kind of all over the place,

00:02:52 ◼   ► sci-fi sort of fantasy, young adults, techno thrillers.

00:02:57 ◼   ► There's all sorts of different stuff I've tried.

00:03:00 ◼   ► But yeah, so that's it.

00:03:03 ◼   ► Maybe someday I will follow in the footsteps of Dan Morin

00:03:06 ◼   ► and have a book published.

00:03:08 ◼   ► But I don't know, I wouldn't bet on it

00:03:10 ◼   ► only because it's difficult.

00:03:12 ◼   ► It's become very difficult for me to prioritize that.

00:03:14 ◼   ► And I really admire that about Dan.

00:03:15 ◼   ► Like, Dan has prioritized it.

00:03:17 ◼   ► Like, Dan, that's one of Dan's jobs is writing novels.

00:03:21 ◼   ► And it's a little easier when you've got a contract.

00:03:24 ◼   ► 'Cause there's at least a light at the end of the tunnel,

00:03:26 ◼   ► whereas mine, there may be no light

00:03:28 ◼   ► at the end of the tunnel at all.

00:03:29 ◼   ► But I hope to get back there someday.

00:03:33 ◼   ► - I think it can be hard when you have,

00:03:37 ◼   ► like when the things that we do,

00:03:41 ◼   ► they very closely align with the things that we like to do.

00:03:44 ◼   ► And so then there can be times

00:03:46 ◼   ► where there's something you want to do,

00:03:48 ◼   ► but it's close enough to the thing

00:03:49 ◼   ► that you kind of need to do for your job.

00:03:53 ◼   ► And then it becomes difficult to separate the two

00:03:55 ◼   ► and prioritize one over the other.

00:03:58 ◼   ► - Right, if you work on spreadsheets all day,

00:04:00 ◼   ► I think it's in some ways going home

00:04:04 ◼   ► and writing a novel is an outlet

00:04:06 ◼   ► because it's not a thing you do all day.

00:04:07 ◼   ► And that is something that I struggled with

00:04:09 ◼   ► when I was writing those NaNoWriMo novels at IDG

00:04:13 ◼   ► was if it's a day where I'm like writing all day,

00:04:16 ◼   ► I've got no more words left in the evening, right?

00:04:19 ◼   ► It would have to be a very different kind of day.

00:04:21 ◼   ► And I think it's telling that that was also during a period

00:04:24 ◼   ► where I was less involved in the editorial stuff

00:04:26 ◼   ► and more involved in management.

00:04:27 ◼   ► And that therefore I was using it more as an outlet

00:04:30 ◼   ► where now, again, I sit down at the keyboard and I think,

00:04:33 ◼   ► well, I could rewrite chapter nine,

00:04:37 ◼   ► or I could write my review of the Mac mini

00:04:41 ◼   ► that's due in two days, right?

00:04:43 ◼   ► Like it ends up being like,

00:04:44 ◼   ► well, what are you gonna choose?

00:04:45 ◼   ► And the answer is usually pretty obvious.

00:04:46 ◼   ► So that's a struggle.

00:04:48 ◼   ► - If you would like to send in a snow talk of your own

00:04:51 ◼   ► to help us open a future episode of the show,

00:04:53 ◼   ► just go to upgradefeedback.com and you can send yours in.

00:04:56 ◼   ► Thank you to Jon for doing so.

00:04:58 ◼   ► Jason, it's Upgradies time.

00:05:02 ◼   ► - It is the start, the beginning of the Upgradies process.

00:05:05 ◼   ► - It sure is.

00:05:06 ◼   ► So we're very, very excited.

00:05:08 ◼   ► We've hit that time of year. - Upgradients.

00:05:10 ◼   ► - The Upgradies. - It's time for you

00:05:11 ◼   ► to help us.

00:05:12 ◼   ► - So go to upgradees.vote and you can cast your ballot,

00:05:18 ◼   ► the Upgrading ballot, for your favorite things of the year

00:05:21 ◼   ► to be put into the Upgradies.

00:05:23 ◼   ► So the Upgradies is an award show

00:05:26 ◼   ► that we do at the end of every year.

00:05:28 ◼   ► And we have a bunch of categories.

00:05:29 ◼   ► We've been doing it for 10 years.

00:05:31 ◼   ► And you can go at any point and see our previous winners

00:05:34 ◼   ► of all of our categories over at upgradees.com.

00:05:37 ◼   ► This is like apps and media and technology and stories.

00:05:41 ◼   ► It's all stuff that we talk about on this show.

00:05:43 ◼   ► But me and Jason will make the ultimate award winnings,

00:05:47 ◼   ► the winners. - Right.

00:05:48 ◼   ► - We will cast our votes for the winners

00:05:50 ◼   ► and decide the winners in every category.

00:05:51 ◼   ► But we sometimes struggle in certain categories

00:05:55 ◼   ► or we need like a tiebreaker.

00:05:57 ◼   ► And so we ask for the Upgradients to vote too.

00:05:59 ◼   ► So you can cast your vote over at upgradees.vote.

00:06:02 ◼   ► It's a Google form.

00:06:03 ◼   ► You can fill it in.

00:06:04 ◼   ► You can fill in as much of it as you like and submit it.

00:06:06 ◼   ► And it will help us at the end of the year.

00:06:08 ◼   ► So voting will be open until December 13th

00:06:11 ◼   ► and the 11th annual Upgradies will be broadcasting live

00:06:14 ◼   ► on December the 30th.

00:06:16 ◼   ► So I'm very excited.

00:06:18 ◼   ► - This is a great way for us to also be pointed to things

00:06:21 ◼   ► that we maybe missed that we need to pay attention to.

00:06:24 ◼   ► So I would say very much think of this as

00:06:27 ◼   ► it can be your personal Upgradies list.

00:06:29 ◼   ► It can also be your nominations for things for us

00:06:32 ◼   ► to consider and that is very helpful to us.

00:06:35 ◼   ► And sometimes we'll use it as a tiebreaker

00:06:37 ◼   ► or we'll throw something to the Upgradients.

00:06:39 ◼   ► But it's most useful, I would say, as a way for us to,

00:06:43 ◼   ► at least for me, to have it be a little bit

00:06:46 ◼   ► of a safety net where I will see an app

00:06:49 ◼   ► and I'll say, "What is that app?"

00:06:51 ◼   ► And I will go investigate it

00:06:52 ◼   ► and that can be really helpful too.

00:06:54 ◼   ► So Upgradies.vote, we appreciate your help.

00:06:57 ◼   ► - We do indeed.

00:06:57 ◼   ► So yeah, Upgradies.vote, you can make your nominations

00:07:00 ◼   ► until December 13th, where they will then be closed

00:07:04 ◼   ► and tabulated via a very technical and complicated process

00:07:08 ◼   ► to work out what the Upgradients voted for.

00:07:10 ◼   ► And it's just always fun too, because as Jason says,

00:07:12 ◼   ► sometimes there's stuff like podcasts and movies and TV

00:07:15 ◼   ► that I didn't even really think of or really even know about

00:07:18 ◼   ► especially in the books category,

00:07:19 ◼   ► because I ain't read nothing.

00:07:22 ◼   ► - No, that's my category.

00:07:24 ◼   ► - Yep.

00:07:25 ◼   ► - But it's nice to hear what the, yes.

00:07:26 ◼   ► And then that'll be our, just a very exciting,

00:07:29 ◼   ► not that exciting, scheduling thing.

00:07:31 ◼   ► We're gonna do our holiday special on the 23rd of December

00:07:36 ◼   ► and we're gonna do our Upgradies show

00:07:38 ◼   ► on the 30th of December.

00:07:41 ◼   ► The 30th will even be live on the 30th

00:07:44 ◼   ► if you wanna tune that in.

00:07:46 ◼   ► That one will be live for,

00:07:48 ◼   ► a holiday special will be a pre-record.

00:07:49 ◼   ► But yeah, anyway, so we will be,

00:07:52 ◼   ► we're not letting those Mondays slide on by, we're gonna--

00:07:54 ◼   ► - No way.

00:07:55 ◼   ► - We're gonna keep on publishing episodes of Upgrading

00:07:57 ◼   ► on the last episode of the year, the Upgradies.

00:08:00 ◼   ► - I have a couple of items to follow up.

00:08:03 ◼   ► This one, I saw this, Jason, this is purely for you.

00:08:05 ◼   ► So version 1.4 of Matter is available now to be implemented.

00:08:10 ◼   ► It includes support for solar power, home batteries,

00:08:14 ◼   ► and heat pumps, which I thought maybe

00:08:16 ◼   ► could be good for you in the future.

00:08:18 ◼   ► - Maybe, so this would, in the future,

00:08:20 ◼   ► okay, so here are my thoughts.

00:08:21 ◼   ► First is, this will be good for future products

00:08:24 ◼   ► that are made, that are built to the Matter standard

00:08:26 ◼   ► if those products are made.

00:08:28 ◼   ► My question is, do I think the products

00:08:31 ◼   ► that were installed in my house already

00:08:32 ◼   ► will be given firmware updates to support Matter?

00:08:36 ◼   ► My guess is no, but you never know.

00:08:41 ◼   ► You never know.

00:08:42 ◼   ► I sort of feel like a lot of these home heating systems

00:08:46 ◼   ► and all of that, once they're out the door,

00:08:48 ◼   ► there's basically nothing that gets changed on them.

00:08:50 ◼   ► But I believe my thermostat supports Alexa and Google,

00:08:55 ◼   ► but not Apple Home, which is fine

00:08:59 ◼   ► 'cause there's a Homebridge plugin that supports it.

00:09:02 ◼   ► But it's one of those things where if they did an update,

00:09:05 ◼   ► might they just do it to support Matter

00:09:07 ◼   ► and that gets them everything?

00:09:08 ◼   ► Maybe, but I don't know if I buy it.

00:09:11 ◼   ► But anyway, it's good for future devices.

00:09:13 ◼   ► And then the other thought I had is,

00:09:15 ◼   ► having support for these items in the Home app

00:09:20 ◼   ► means that an app like Homebridge

00:09:23 ◼   ► can support it more directly.

00:09:26 ◼   ► - That's what I was thinking for you.

00:09:28 ◼   ► - Yeah, having used some of this now,

00:09:29 ◼   ► they're like, the solar power.

00:09:32 ◼   ► Here's a good example.

00:09:34 ◼   ► How much power is coming in from the solar panels

00:09:37 ◼   ► right at the moment?

00:09:39 ◼   ► I believe that's implemented as a light with a dimmer.

00:09:42 ◼   ► So you have a fake light in Homebridge,

00:09:45 ◼   ► you have a fake light that is at 40%

00:09:48 ◼   ► and that means it's at 40% of power in the solar system.

00:09:51 ◼   ► And a battery is in the solar system.

00:09:56 ◼   ► Yeah, I know, it's space. - I like that, it's good.

00:09:59 ◼   ► - So here is the thing.

00:10:01 ◼   ► To me, that's the thing that makes me most optimistic

00:10:05 ◼   ► is that it might mean that the Home app

00:10:07 ◼   ► understands other kinds of devices

00:10:09 ◼   ► so that we don't have this thing

00:10:11 ◼   ► that happens a lot in Homebridge

00:10:12 ◼   ► and I assume in other apps that do similar things

00:10:16 ◼   ► where it has to kind of,

00:10:18 ◼   ► it's amazing that it can put it in your Home app at all,

00:10:21 ◼   ► but it puts it in as something weird

00:10:22 ◼   ► 'cause it's sort of like,

00:10:24 ◼   ► well, all this can really be is a fan, so it's a fan.

00:10:28 ◼   ► But it's not a fan at all, why is it a fan?

00:10:31 ◼   ► And it's like, well, you could be a light,

00:10:32 ◼   ► but it's not a light either.

00:10:33 ◼   ► It's like, well, look, all I know about is fans and lights.

00:10:36 ◼   ► So that's my real hope is that at some point

00:10:40 ◼   ► I will be able to use some sort of software

00:10:41 ◼   ► that will bridge into the Home app

00:10:43 ◼   ► that will accurately reflect what this stuff is.

00:10:46 ◼   ► And that'll be great, but until that day, it's great.

00:10:51 ◼   ► This has been one of the challenges with the Home app

00:10:55 ◼   ► and Matter and HomeKit and everything

00:10:57 ◼   ► is that there are a lot of,

00:10:58 ◼   ► sometimes they're slow to add device categories

00:11:02 ◼   ► that are smart.

00:11:03 ◼   ► - Yeah, this probably won't find its way into iOS

00:11:07 ◼   ► maybe until 19, right?

00:11:09 ◼   ► But it's similar to emoji, right?

00:11:12 ◼   ► They approve the emoji standard

00:11:14 ◼   ► and then it has to be implemented by the software man

00:11:16 ◼   ► like the device manufacturers.

00:11:19 ◼   ► So it could find its way into a point update of 18

00:11:21 ◼   ► or you'll wait to 19.

00:11:23 ◼   ► But I thought at least, as you were saying,

00:11:25 ◼   ► even if your stuff doesn't work,

00:11:27 ◼   ► if you can get it on Homebridge,

00:11:29 ◼   ► at least the Home app will have a better interface

00:11:31 ◼   ► for some of these integrations.

00:11:34 ◼   ► And also as well with this,

00:11:36 ◼   ► the thing that seems to be continually worked on,

00:11:38 ◼   ► the underlying technology

00:11:39 ◼   ► they're trying to make better and more reliable

00:11:41 ◼   ► and they've been doing this

00:11:41 ◼   ► since the original version of Matter.

00:11:43 ◼   ► So we're still on the right path.

00:11:45 ◼   ► - Yeah, I think it's good.

00:11:47 ◼   ► - The current shipping beta of VisionOS 2.2

00:11:51 ◼   ► includes support for the ultra wide Mac virtual display.

00:11:55 ◼   ► Now to do this, you have to be running 15.2.

00:12:00 ◼   ► - So I'm not, so I haven't tried this out,

00:12:02 ◼   ► but I believe you have.

00:12:04 ◼   ► - I did, I tried this out with an M4 MacBook Pro,

00:12:09 ◼   ► which I can admit that I possess now.

00:12:11 ◼   ► - Sick.

00:12:12 ◼   ► - And my Vision Pro and it was pretty great.

00:12:18 ◼   ► Although I did notice one quirk,

00:12:19 ◼   ► I'll get the quirk out first,

00:12:20 ◼   ► which is, you know how it's got that amazing new feature

00:12:22 ◼   ► in VisionOS 2 where you can see the keyboard,

00:12:27 ◼   ► that it punches through the keyboard

00:12:29 ◼   ► from your background.

00:12:32 ◼   ► So you can see it, even if you dial up,

00:12:35 ◼   ► Joshua Tree all the way, you can still see your keyboard.

00:12:38 ◼   ► It doesn't work if you're not looking at it.

00:12:40 ◼   ► It needs to be seen while you dial in your environment.

00:12:46 ◼   ► Otherwise, later, if you look down at it,

00:12:51 ◼   ► it doesn't recognize it as a keyboard, it doesn't bother.

00:12:55 ◼   ► So I had that moment where I'm like, where's my keyboard?

00:12:57 ◼   ► And the answer is you gotta look at the keyboard

00:12:58 ◼   ► while you dial it in and then it doesn't hold down.

00:12:59 ◼   ► - I still want them to do what the Quest can do,

00:13:03 ◼   ► where you can, in Horizons at least,

00:13:05 ◼   ► like in the Horizon workroom thing,

00:13:07 ◼   ► you can just draw a part of your desk

00:13:09 ◼   ► that breaks through always.

00:13:10 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:13:11 ◼   ► - So it could just be any keyboard, any mouse.

00:13:13 ◼   ► And they should be able to hold that in position

00:13:15 ◼   ► so I can just put it where I want.

00:13:16 ◼   ► So for me, I could draw out, this is my keyboard,

00:13:19 ◼   ► my mouse and my notepad, just this part on my desk,

00:13:22 ◼   ► and then I can do whatever I want.

00:13:23 ◼   ► I still want them to do that

00:13:24 ◼   ► and I hope that they will at some point.

00:13:27 ◼   ► - But the wide screen, does it look good?

00:13:31 ◼   ► Does it feel like a gimmick?

00:13:32 ◼   ► Like what do you think?

00:13:34 ◼   ► - It looks good.

00:13:34 ◼   ► - Okay.

00:13:35 ◼   ► - It looks good.

00:13:36 ◼   ► It is, so it feels like the whole thing is a little bit,

00:13:40 ◼   ► I mean, I can't tell for sure,

00:13:42 ◼   ► but it feels like it's a little clearer than it was before.

00:13:45 ◼   ► Like they've improved the feature fundamentally.

00:13:49 ◼   ► - I've seen people saying that online too.

00:13:51 ◼   ► And I don't know if this is a,

00:13:52 ◼   ► is Safari snappier thing or not.

00:13:55 ◼   ► - Yeah, exactly, exactly.

00:13:56 ◼   ► I can't, I almost said it feels snappier.

00:13:59 ◼   ► It's one of those things I can't tell, I can't tell.

00:14:02 ◼   ► But the thing that, so floating over the Mac display share

00:14:07 ◼   ► is a little icon showing you what Mac it's from.

00:14:12 ◼   ► And if you tap on that or whatever the right verb is

00:14:16 ◼   ► for that in Vision Pro, you select that,

00:14:19 ◼   ► you get a choice of standard wide and ultra wide.

00:14:23 ◼   ► And I'd say, so it's interesting,

00:14:25 ◼   ► you have to choose the mode

00:14:26 ◼   ► 'cause it's basically refreshing

00:14:28 ◼   ► the size of the virtual display.

00:14:31 ◼   ► The ultra wide is too wide for me,

00:14:33 ◼   ► but anybody like Casey Liss who uses three monitors,

00:14:36 ◼   ► I mean, that's who it's for.

00:14:38 ◼   ► The wide feels like it's more like,

00:14:40 ◼   ► if not two monitors, then more than one,

00:14:45 ◼   ► and it can fill your field of view.

00:14:46 ◼   ► And what I like about it is it's the idea

00:14:49 ◼   ► that you can plop stuff.

00:14:52 ◼   ► Okay, one of the things I really like

00:14:53 ◼   ► about the Vision OS interface in general

00:14:55 ◼   ► is that I can take an app that I'm not really using so much

00:14:57 ◼   ► and I just kind of put it to the side

00:14:59 ◼   ► and it's very glanceable.

00:15:01 ◼   ► And I don't do that, I have one monitor at my desk, right?

00:15:03 ◼   ► I don't do that in my regular Mac life.

00:15:06 ◼   ► But I do like that in the Vision Pro,

00:15:08 ◼   ► the idea that I just got a Vision OS app,

00:15:10 ◼   ► it's playing music, whatever, and it's kind of over there.

00:15:12 ◼   ► It's over on the right side.

00:15:14 ◼   ► What this, in wide and ultra wide mode,

00:15:18 ◼   ► what it does is it absolutely lets you do that

00:15:20 ◼   ► with your Mac workspace.

00:15:22 ◼   ► So then you end up having this workspace

00:15:24 ◼   ► where you've got a big central part

00:15:26 ◼   ► where you can do your work, but you can take that Mac app

00:15:29 ◼   ► that you don't wanna look at right now

00:15:31 ◼   ► and put it over there, and then you're looking to the right.

00:15:33 ◼   ► And it's very, I'm sure this is why people

00:15:35 ◼   ► use multiple monitors.

00:15:36 ◼   ► One of the problems I have with multiple monitors

00:15:38 ◼   ► is that they extend too far out

00:15:40 ◼   ► and you have to fiddle around with aligning them

00:15:43 ◼   ► and all of that.

00:15:44 ◼   ► And that's the beauty of this, is it's a single display

00:15:46 ◼   ► and the wider it gets, the more a curve kind of is introduced

00:15:49 ◼   ► so that it's kind of equidistant from you all around you.

00:15:53 ◼   ► I think it's good.

00:15:54 ◼   ► I know that a friend of the show, Mark Gurman,

00:15:57 ◼   ► basically said this is what he was waiting for

00:15:59 ◼   ► and this makes the Vision Pro far more usable.

00:16:02 ◼   ► And I think that there, and it gives it a reason

00:16:06 ◼   ► for him to use it, use it as a virtual Mac display.

00:16:09 ◼   ► I need to spend more time with it,

00:16:10 ◼   ► but I am also optimistic about it.

00:16:12 ◼   ► It makes me a little more excited about using the Vision Pro

00:16:17 ◼   ► as a really good Mac display in a way that maybe I,

00:16:21 ◼   ► the old version didn't excite me as much.

00:16:25 ◼   ► So I'm optimistic, it looks pretty good.

00:16:28 ◼   ► And I think especially for people

00:16:30 ◼   ► who are multi-display people who don't,

00:16:33 ◼   ► they're like, yeah, okay, but I've already got a MacBook Pro

00:16:37 ◼   ► that I'm traveling with and it's got one screen.

00:16:39 ◼   ► And what I really need is I wanna replicate

00:16:41 ◼   ► my two or three screen experience at my office

00:16:44 ◼   ► and I can't do that.

00:16:46 ◼   ► This is gonna be a winner for those people.

00:16:50 ◼   ► - I assume that the Mac sees it as an ultra wide display.

00:16:53 ◼   ► The Mac that you're attached to.

00:16:56 ◼   ► So yeah, if you move stuff around on that display

00:16:59 ◼   ► and then when you go back to your Mac,

00:17:00 ◼   ► it's all gonna be weird, right?

00:17:01 ◼   ► - It just pushes it all back into the,

00:17:04 ◼   ► whatever the new space is.

00:17:06 ◼   ► It's screen sharing, right?

00:17:07 ◼   ► So it's taking out that window

00:17:08 ◼   ► and making it really wide, the display.

00:17:11 ◼   ► And then as anytime you change display resolution,

00:17:14 ◼   ► if you've got stuff out on the edges,

00:17:16 ◼   ► if you go from more space to bigger,

00:17:20 ◼   ► it does the same thing, right?

00:17:21 ◼   ► On the same monitor, it shoves everything toward the center

00:17:24 ◼   ► 'cause it obviously can't live at the margins anymore.

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00:19:37 ◼   ► Room around uptime, Jason Snell.

00:19:41 ◼   ► - Yeehaw!

00:19:42 ◼   ► According to Mark Gurman at Bloomberg,

00:19:44 ◼   ► Apple has started exploring a smart glasses project

00:19:47 ◼   ► dubbed Project Atlas.

00:19:49 ◼   ► This has only gotten off the ground last week

00:19:51 ◼   ► and is currently at the stage of gathering feedback

00:19:54 ◼   ► and ideas from Apple employees.

00:19:56 ◼   ► A quote from Mark Gurman's newsletter,

00:19:58 ◼   ► "When Apple is considering whether to enter a new category,

00:20:01 ◼   ► often hosts secret focus groups

00:20:03 ◼   ► to understand what people like about existing products."

00:20:06 ◼   ► The more I've settled on this report,

00:20:08 ◼   ► we spoke about it a bit on Connected

00:20:10 ◼   ► and it's been about a week now since this report came out.

00:20:14 ◼   ► The more I kind of feel like,

00:20:18 ◼   ► I'm not sure what I think about this,

00:20:20 ◼   ► like what is this project they're just starting?

00:20:24 ◼   ► Like just starting and how long is that

00:20:26 ◼   ► until there's a project?

00:20:27 ◼   ► Like I don't know what I think about this.

00:20:29 ◼   ► - So I think one of the challenges here is

00:20:31 ◼   ► it could be one of two things.

00:20:33 ◼   ► It could be that Apple has completely written

00:20:35 ◼   ► this entire category off and finally they have said,

00:20:39 ◼   ► oh, gee, I guess there is something here.

00:20:41 ◼   ► Maybe we should talk to people

00:20:42 ◼   ► about what they get out of this thing.

00:20:43 ◼   ► Because in fact, you could imagine,

00:20:45 ◼   ► if you mentioned the internal politics,

00:20:47 ◼   ► it's like, whoever's in charge of wearables and stuff

00:20:49 ◼   ► looks at this and is like, this is stupid.

00:20:51 ◼   ► We're not gonna do something like that.

00:20:52 ◼   ► Why would we bother?

00:20:53 ◼   ► We have AirPods, they're better, whatever.

00:20:55 ◼   ► And then there's a little bit of momentum

00:20:57 ◼   ► and somebody somewhere with more authority is like,

00:21:00 ◼   ► why are you guys not working on this?

00:21:03 ◼   ► And it's possible that the person who's poo-pooed this before

00:21:07 ◼   ► is like, all right, I guess we should talk to people

00:21:10 ◼   ► who like this thing and figure out why they like it.

00:21:12 ◼   ► And it might even be like,

00:21:14 ◼   ► we need to prove why this is a thing that people care about

00:21:19 ◼   ► because obviously our people thought that it was dumb,

00:21:22 ◼   ► but obviously somebody cares about it.

00:21:24 ◼   ► So it's possible that this is a somewhat functional response

00:21:29 ◼   ► to a somewhat dysfunctional situation where somebody,

00:21:33 ◼   ► and I've seen this happen, right?

00:21:34 ◼   ► You've seen this happen too,

00:21:35 ◼   ► where somebody in a position of authority doesn't get it.

00:21:38 ◼   ► And no matter what you do, they just don't get it.

00:21:42 ◼   ► And you know you're right,

00:21:44 ◼   ► but you just can't make them see it.

00:21:47 ◼   ► And that's a possibility here.

00:21:48 ◼   ► And if so, it's not great because it means that Apple

00:21:51 ◼   ► is behind on something that honestly,

00:21:54 ◼   ► with the money and the resources Apple has,

00:21:57 ◼   ► Apple should be investigating all sorts of different shapes

00:22:00 ◼   ► and sizes and product types for things that are wearables,

00:22:03 ◼   ► including something like this.

00:22:04 ◼   ► It's also possible that there was a domain issue

00:22:09 ◼   ► where because their glasses,

00:22:12 ◼   ► I mean, we see this when people discuss this too.

00:22:14 ◼   ► You start talking about the Meta Ray Bands

00:22:16 ◼   ► and everybody starts talking about the Vision Pro.

00:22:18 ◼   ► And it's like those products,

00:22:20 ◼   ► other than that they're on your face,

00:22:22 ◼   ► are completely not alike.

00:22:24 ◼   ► Maybe they will be someday,

00:22:26 ◼   ► but they are entirely different classes of product today.

00:22:29 ◼   ► The Meta Ray Bands and the Vision Pro,

00:22:31 ◼   ► the Meta Ray Bands and the Meta Quest 3, right?

00:22:34 ◼   ► Like they are not the same at all.

00:22:36 ◼   ► They are not even remotely the same.

00:22:38 ◼   ► But it's possible that there's a turf war somewhere

00:22:41 ◼   ► where the Vision Pro people are like,

00:22:42 ◼   ► "No, no, no, ah, ah, ah, all glasses belong to us."

00:22:46 ◼   ► And there's somebody overdoing AirPods,

00:22:47 ◼   ► it's like, "But we just wanna make AirPods and glasses."

00:22:50 ◼   ► And they're like, "Nope, can't do it, not allowed."

00:22:53 ◼   ► So that's a possibility.

00:22:54 ◼   ► Also would be a little bit disturbing, right?

00:22:56 ◼   ► Because that's a dysfunction inside Apple

00:22:58 ◼   ► that made them fail to do this.

00:23:00 ◼   ► However, I will also give the optimistic read here,

00:23:03 ◼   ► which is Mark Gurman only has one view here

00:23:06 ◼   ► into this product, and he is referring to this focus group.

00:23:10 ◼   ► And I would say, I'm not entirely convinced

00:23:13 ◼   ► that the focus group is step one.

00:23:16 ◼   ► What would encourage me is if Apple does have people

00:23:22 ◼   ► doing wearables R&D who've come up with all sorts of things

00:23:26 ◼   ► that are like the Meta Ray Bands,

00:23:27 ◼   ► and it's never really gone anywhere,

00:23:29 ◼   ► 'cause they haven't really cracked it.

00:23:30 ◼   ► What's Apple's take on it?

00:23:32 ◼   ► Why would people like it?

00:23:33 ◼   ► And they're like, "Yeah, we can put AirPods in glasses,

00:23:35 ◼   ► "but why, and how would that work?"

00:23:37 ◼   ► And I would say last week's connected,

00:23:40 ◼   ► a little bit of follow out here.

00:23:41 ◼   ► I think Federico especially did a very good job

00:23:44 ◼   ► of elaborating what an Apple version

00:23:49 ◼   ► of the Meta Ray Bands would be like.

00:23:50 ◼   ► And the answer is, could be really good,

00:23:54 ◼   ► because Apple has some huge advantages there.

00:23:56 ◼   ► Like his point that if you take a photo

00:23:58 ◼   ► with the Meta Ray Bands, you have to go to their app

00:24:01 ◼   ► and then export it to the camera roll,

00:24:03 ◼   ► or the photo library.

00:24:04 ◼   ► And imagine if it was Siri and the Photos library

00:24:08 ◼   ► and Apple intelligence and AirPods

00:24:10 ◼   ► and all integrated like every other Apple wearable.

00:24:13 ◼   ► That would be pretty good, right?

00:24:15 ◼   ► So my hope is that this is not step one.

00:24:20 ◼   ► My hope is that they've been trying stuff out,

00:24:23 ◼   ► but before they lock down exactly what the product is,

00:24:27 ◼   ► there was a feeling like they needed to talk to people,

00:24:29 ◼   ► because they were concerned that they didn't get it.

00:24:32 ◼   ► That they didn't get what exactly

00:24:35 ◼   ► makes this product interesting.

00:24:38 ◼   ► So there is, if you want a positive read,

00:24:40 ◼   ► a potential optimistic read, that's it.

00:24:42 ◼   ► But I agree with you, Mike.

00:24:43 ◼   ► I am concerned that whatever the reason is,

00:24:46 ◼   ► and I just listed a few of them,

00:24:48 ◼   ► that Apple, whether it was a Vision Pro kind of turf war,

00:24:53 ◼   ► or whether it was a lack of imagination

00:24:55 ◼   ► from people who were on the wearables team

00:24:56 ◼   ► or people in positions of authority on the wearables team,

00:25:00 ◼   ► that they've missed the boat on this.

00:25:03 ◼   ► And the concerning thing is,

00:25:06 ◼   ► when you get a report that says,

00:25:07 ◼   ► "Well, we just got a bunch of employees together

00:25:08 ◼   ► and we talked to them."

00:25:10 ◼   ► It's like, that doesn't even sound like,

00:25:13 ◼   ► like look, Apple having launched a crash project

00:25:16 ◼   ► to make glasses for like AirPod style glasses.

00:25:21 ◼   ► Crash program, they're starting,

00:25:23 ◼   ► it'll be out in a couple of years,

00:25:24 ◼   ► would be a disappointing report.

00:25:26 ◼   ► But if it's Apple is talking to employees

00:25:29 ◼   ► to get their feelings about what they might do

00:25:31 ◼   ► to consider starting making a project,

00:25:34 ◼   ► you're not at square one then,

00:25:37 ◼   ► you're at square minus one.

00:25:39 ◼   ► That's the thing that bothers me,

00:25:40 ◼   ► is if this is the beginning of the beginning of the process,

00:25:45 ◼   ► what took them so long?

00:25:47 ◼   ► And it implies a level of kind of cluelessness

00:25:50 ◼   ► and dysfunction.

00:25:51 ◼   ► So what I wanna believe is that they have been playing

00:25:54 ◼   ► around with this category concept

00:25:56 ◼   ► and just are going to people

00:25:59 ◼   ► because they wanna lock it down

00:26:00 ◼   ► and make sure that it's gonna fulfill what they desire.

00:26:05 ◼   ► But that's the most optimistic read I can have here.

00:26:08 ◼   ► The pessimistic read is they blew it

00:26:10 ◼   ► and they're still kind of blowing it.

00:26:12 ◼   ► - So someone wrote into me and said that like,

00:26:15 ◼   ► this report is wrong,

00:26:17 ◼   ► Apple has internally been working on a glasses product

00:26:21 ◼   ► for as long as they've been working on the Vision Pro.

00:26:23 ◼   ► But this person wrote and told me this and I believe it,

00:26:28 ◼   ► but my expectation is that's not the product

00:26:31 ◼   ► I'm thinking it is though.

00:26:32 ◼   ► - That's AR glasses.

00:26:33 ◼   ► - Yes, and I think this is--

00:26:33 ◼   ► - And this is not AR glasses.

00:26:35 ◼   ► - This is a take AirPods but glasses, right?

00:26:38 ◼   ► I think that--

00:26:39 ◼   ► - This is Siri glasses.

00:26:40 ◼   ► This is, yeah.

00:26:41 ◼   ► It's glasses with speakers or bone conduction,

00:26:46 ◼   ► but like basically AirPods and a camera,

00:26:50 ◼   ► which is great for visual intelligence.

00:26:53 ◼   ► And a microphone and you can do Siri with it

00:26:56 ◼   ► and except you wear them as glasses.

00:26:58 ◼   ► That's all this is.

00:27:00 ◼   ► It's not something with a display again.

00:27:03 ◼   ► And that's one of the challenges here is that

00:27:05 ◼   ► what if that tripped people up and they're like,

00:27:07 ◼   ► no, no, no, stay out of this category.

00:27:09 ◼   ► But I have a hard time imagining,

00:27:11 ◼   ► I will say this for the case for optimism here

00:27:13 ◼   ► is I have a hard time imagining that inside Apple,

00:27:16 ◼   ► the people who build AirPods

00:27:18 ◼   ► and the people who are apparently,

00:27:19 ◼   ► according to Mark Gurman,

00:27:20 ◼   ► trying to build AirPods with cameras in them,

00:27:23 ◼   ► that they haven't considered the idea of,

00:27:26 ◼   ► well, you know what would make this a lot better

00:27:28 ◼   ► is if we just made a pair of glasses

00:27:30 ◼   ► that had AirPods in them,

00:27:31 ◼   ► some version bone conduction, whatever it is.

00:27:34 ◼   ► And boy, then we could get the camera position just right.

00:27:38 ◼   ► Like I have a hard,

00:27:39 ◼   ► how could they not have been experimenting with that?

00:27:42 ◼   ► It seems so clear to me,

00:27:44 ◼   ► but that gives me, takes me back to my worry,

00:27:46 ◼   ► which is, is there some person with a lack of vision

00:27:48 ◼   ► or a political something that has led them

00:27:52 ◼   ► to kind of sideline this product?

00:27:54 ◼   ► - I have a couple of thoughts on this.

00:27:55 ◼   ► One is like, I agree with what you're saying,

00:27:57 ◼   ► but I do feel like at the same time that,

00:27:59 ◼   ► you know, the meta Raybans have been around for a while,

00:28:02 ◼   ► the version one, nobody really paid much attention to,

00:28:04 ◼   ► didn't think it was that great of a product.

00:28:05 ◼   ► The version two. - And the snap stuff,

00:28:07 ◼   ► the snap spectacles too. - And still even then,

00:28:09 ◼   ► I think there was a feeling that like,

00:28:10 ◼   ► oh, nobody wants this,

00:28:11 ◼   ► they don't want cameras on their faces.

00:28:13 ◼   ► But then meta made a compelling enough product

00:28:15 ◼   ► that it worked and that's been within the last year or so.

00:28:18 ◼   ► - Right.

00:28:19 ◼   ► So do you dust off the old project at that point

00:28:21 ◼   ► and go, oh geez, we gotta get something out there.

00:28:23 ◼   ► - Well, this is my concern, right?

00:28:25 ◼   ► And I mentioned this in Connected, I'll repeat it here too.

00:28:28 ◼   ► My concern is that there is such a disdain

00:28:32 ◼   ► for meta inside of Apple that they would be blinded

00:28:35 ◼   ► to the fact that meta could create a compelling product.

00:28:37 ◼   ► And so seeing this competitive product out there,

00:28:40 ◼   ► they were just like, well, that's not gonna work,

00:28:41 ◼   ► no one's gonna want that.

00:28:43 ◼   ► And they ignored the category.

00:28:44 ◼   ► That is my concern.

00:28:45 ◼   ► And that if they have ignored the category,

00:28:48 ◼   ► which Mark Gorman's report seems to indicate,

00:28:51 ◼   ► then we are multiple years away

00:28:54 ◼   ► from them producing a product like this,

00:28:56 ◼   ► which at that point I think is a problem.

00:28:59 ◼   ► - It's not great.

00:29:00 ◼   ► And you're right, if there is some institutional arrogance

00:29:02 ◼   ► where they're like, oh, meta,

00:29:03 ◼   ► whatever meta does, don't do it, do the opposite.

00:29:05 ◼   ► And again, I'm sure some people are out there

00:29:08 ◼   ► listening to this like, why is this even a category?

00:29:10 ◼   ► Why are we even talking about it?

00:29:11 ◼   ► But I can tell you, I know people, Mike Federico, others,

00:29:16 ◼   ► who have this product and it's pretty cool.

00:29:18 ◼   ► And Federico, like I said last week,

00:29:20 ◼   ► made the really good succinct point about how,

00:29:24 ◼   ► imagine if this actually was an Apple product,

00:29:26 ◼   ► it would be better integrated and it would be good for Apple

00:29:29 ◼   ► and it would be like a different version of AirPods

00:29:31 ◼   ► that's got a bunch of other stuff in it.

00:29:33 ◼   ► And it's a really interesting idea.

00:29:35 ◼   ► And look, not every product is gonna come out.

00:29:38 ◼   ► And it's possible that, again,

00:29:39 ◼   ► people at Apple have looked at this and have said,

00:29:42 ◼   ► it's not a thing.

00:29:43 ◼   ► The danger is that it is a thing and they made a mistake

00:29:46 ◼   ► and how quickly can they repeat it?

00:29:48 ◼   ► And the other thing that I would say here,

00:29:50 ◼   ► and this is, so I was a little behind the scenes.

00:29:55 ◼   ► I listen to podcasts when I'm walking the dog

00:29:56 ◼   ► and when I'm taking a shower,

00:29:57 ◼   ► I believe this was in the shower,

00:29:59 ◼   ► washing my hair, putting in some conditioner,

00:30:03 ◼   ► listening to Connected.

00:30:05 ◼   ► And I had this thought, which is,

00:30:06 ◼   ► say what you will about how efficient and powerful

00:30:11 ◼   ► and profitable today's Apple is.

00:30:15 ◼   ► If I were Tim Cook, Jeff Williams,

00:30:19 ◼   ► any senior person at Apple,

00:30:20 ◼   ► one of the weaknesses that I would identify in Apple today

00:30:27 ◼   ► is that Apple is so streamlined,

00:30:33 ◼   ► Apple is so efficient,

00:30:35 ◼   ► I wonder if they've lost the ability to move quickly.

00:30:41 ◼   ► And Apple needs to be nimble.

00:30:46 ◼   ► It needs to not be a lumbering colossus, right?

00:30:49 ◼   ► It needs to be nimble.

00:30:51 ◼   ► And I would look at this and say,

00:30:53 ◼   ► we can do a better product than Metas Ray-Bans.

00:30:58 ◼   ► And let's do it.

00:31:02 ◼   ► And I would say something like,

00:31:04 ◼   ► I wanna announce it next fall.

00:31:07 ◼   ► And everybody's gonna be like,

00:31:09 ◼   ► but we can't make a product in a year.

00:31:12 ◼   ► And what I would say is,

00:31:14 ◼   ► well, the iPod came together in a year, year and a half.

00:31:18 ◼   ► The iPhone was a lot of research, right?

00:31:20 ◼   ► Okay, I'll give you that.

00:31:21 ◼   ► But this is an accessory product.

00:31:23 ◼   ► And we have all the pieces.

00:31:25 ◼   ► And if Apple, maybe not a year, maybe it's 18 months,

00:31:29 ◼   ► but this is the thing.

00:31:31 ◼   ► This is my real question here is,

00:31:32 ◼   ► if Apple has realized that this is a thing

00:31:35 ◼   ► that they should make, probably,

00:31:37 ◼   ► they're not quite sure exactly what,

00:31:39 ◼   ► they've got the pieces, but they have to put it together.

00:31:41 ◼   ► They might have some prototypes,

00:31:42 ◼   ► but they're not really right.

00:31:44 ◼   ► How quick can they turn that into a product?

00:31:46 ◼   ► My concern is what you said,

00:31:48 ◼   ► which is it's two, three years away.

00:31:50 ◼   ► This is like all the rumors about those HomePods,

00:31:53 ◼   ► like the HomePod with the screen.

00:31:54 ◼   ► We've been talking about,

00:31:56 ◼   ► I feel like we've been talking about that

00:31:57 ◼   ► for like five years.

00:31:59 ◼   ► And look, not everything is a priority one category,

00:32:02 ◼   ► but I would say, if you have a lack of vision sometimes

00:32:07 ◼   ► in the tech space that moves really fast,

00:32:09 ◼   ► and I understand artificial intelligence

00:32:11 ◼   ► is actually probably the best example here

00:32:13 ◼   ► where Apple intelligence is a moment

00:32:15 ◼   ► where the company has to turn on a dime.

00:32:17 ◼   ► Okay, I'll give you that one.

00:32:18 ◼   ► But on the hardware side, here's an example,

00:32:20 ◼   ► which is you make a lot of money

00:32:23 ◼   ► from wearables, home and accessories.

00:32:24 ◼   ► You have a hot accessory category

00:32:26 ◼   ► that you didn't think was gonna click, and it clicks.

00:32:30 ◼   ► How fast can you get a product out?

00:32:31 ◼   ► I'll tell you, Samsung can get it out real fast.

00:32:34 ◼   ► Can you?

00:32:35 ◼   ► And I'm not saying make it bad.

00:32:37 ◼   ► I'm saying make it real good.

00:32:38 ◼   ► Make it up to Apple's standards.

00:32:41 ◼   ► But how fast can you do that?

00:32:43 ◼   ► And that's my concern about this story writ large,

00:32:48 ◼   ► is I'm a little worried

00:32:49 ◼   ► that politics might make them clueless.

00:32:51 ◼   ► I'm a little worried about all of that.

00:32:52 ◼   ► I'm a little worried about maybe some turf wars

00:32:55 ◼   ► and things like that.

00:32:56 ◼   ► But my biggest concern is you're gonna miss stuff.

00:33:01 ◼   ► How do you react to that?

00:33:02 ◼   ► And my concern is that they're unable to react quickly.

00:33:07 ◼   ► That is the biggest worry to me,

00:33:10 ◼   ► is the broader inability to work quickly.

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00:35:36 ◼   ► Let's move into Lawyer Up

00:35:38 ◼   ► as a way to actually consider this conversation

00:35:41 ◼   ► from a slightly different angle.

00:35:43 ◼   ► Because we haven't, there is some stuff

00:35:45 ◼   ► that I wanted to touch on in Lawyer Up today.

00:35:46 ◼   ► We haven't come back to this in a while,

00:35:48 ◼   ► but there's been some big movements.

00:35:49 ◼   ► But I'll start by saying that iPadOS

00:35:52 ◼   ► is also now under formal investigation by the European Union

00:35:55 ◼   ► in relation to the Digital Markets Act.

00:35:58 ◼   ► It became a gatekeeper, it was classed as a gatekeeper

00:36:00 ◼   ► back in April, which is why Apple brought

00:36:02 ◼   ► alternative app marketplaces to iPadOS 18.

00:36:06 ◼   ► The EU has stated that iPad accessories

00:36:09 ◼   ► like the Apple Pencil and the tight integration

00:36:12 ◼   ► that they have together is gonna be investigated

00:36:16 ◼   ► as part of this device.

00:36:16 ◼   ► They already in September as well,

00:36:18 ◼   ► added to the many things the EU has added on

00:36:23 ◼   ► to Apple's investigation, that they're looking

00:36:25 ◼   ► into interoperability of smartwatches

00:36:29 ◼   ► and Bluetooth headphones, and how they all connect,

00:36:32 ◼   ► and is Apple being fair, similar to what

00:36:34 ◼   ► the Department of Justice is doing.

00:36:36 ◼   ► The reason I wanted to pivot into this now

00:36:38 ◼   ► is I was thinking, when she was talking,

00:36:40 ◼   ► the idea of Apple being so large and stuff like that,

00:36:45 ◼   ► the only product area that they have moved into

00:36:49 ◼   ► in recent times, new one, is the Vision Pro,

00:36:51 ◼   ► which was trying to create this whole new thing.

00:36:54 ◼   ► And this is the beginning of hopefully a long period

00:36:57 ◼   ► of time where they tried to do this.

00:36:58 ◼   ► But realistically, they're never gonna have another iPhone.

00:37:04 ◼   ► - The likelihood of them having a successor

00:37:06 ◼   ► like the iPhone, it just doesn't feel feasible.

00:37:09 ◼   ► - Nobody's gonna have another smartphone.

00:37:13 ◼   ► - Because the world is just so different now.

00:37:16 ◼   ► It's like something, we don't know what it will be,

00:37:18 ◼   ► but it will be something else.

00:37:19 ◼   ► So basically, the best thing Apple can do

00:37:22 ◼   ► is make accessory devices for the iPhone, right?

00:37:27 ◼   ► AirPods have been a success, Apple has been a success.

00:37:29 ◼   ► Why?

00:37:30 ◼   ► Because everybody has an iPhone in their pocket, right?

00:37:33 ◼   ► And so the idea of creating smart glasses

00:37:37 ◼   ► that talk directly to the iPhone should have been,

00:37:42 ◼   ► maybe in retrospect, but should have been a product

00:37:44 ◼   ► that you can buy today.

00:37:46 ◼   ► Because that is Apple's best way

00:37:51 ◼   ► to create something successful,

00:37:53 ◼   ► is to attach it to the iPhone.

00:37:55 ◼   ► - Now, the EU DMA argument about what we talked about

00:38:01 ◼   ► previously about the glasses is,

00:38:04 ◼   ► why does Apple have to make that product?

00:38:07 ◼   ► Why, and what I described, what Federico said,

00:38:12 ◼   ► Federico was essentially saying,

00:38:14 ◼   ► well, what would make the Apple product better

00:38:17 ◼   ► is that Apple would actually integrate it.

00:38:19 ◼   ► But if you read between the lines,

00:38:22 ◼   ► what is also apparent is the metaglasses

00:38:26 ◼   ► aren't as good as they should be

00:38:29 ◼   ► because they don't have that level of access

00:38:32 ◼   ► to Apple's platforms.

00:38:34 ◼   ► They have kind of lower quality Siri

00:38:37 ◼   ► and they have a more limited way of syncing stuff

00:38:42 ◼   ► into the photo library.

00:38:44 ◼   ► Not that it isn't there,

00:38:46 ◼   ► but you know it wouldn't be as good as an Apple product.

00:38:51 ◼   ► And I wanna be clear here,

00:38:53 ◼   ► there are two interesting sides here.

00:38:54 ◼   ► One is, Apple's integration

00:38:59 ◼   ► makes their products better, their accessories better,

00:39:02 ◼   ► in part because they are the platform owner

00:39:04 ◼   ► and they can build the software into the platform

00:39:07 ◼   ► that makes accessories shine.

00:39:10 ◼   ► And that is a secret sauce thing

00:39:12 ◼   ► and they're very, very good at it.

00:39:14 ◼   ► The DMA and the EU would say,

00:39:17 ◼   ► you should do that, but you can't limit it to yourself.

00:39:22 ◼   ► And what they would basically be saying is,

00:39:25 ◼   ► you can make those metaraband competitors Apple,

00:39:28 ◼   ► but the moment you ship them

00:39:30 ◼   ► with the software that you ship,

00:39:32 ◼   ► that software also needs to be available to Meta

00:39:36 ◼   ► so that they can compete with you

00:39:37 ◼   ► with their existing product.

00:39:39 ◼   ► You can't beat them by creating special software

00:39:44 ◼   ► on your platform that only you have access to.

00:39:46 ◼   ► And that's really interesting, right?

00:39:49 ◼   ► 'Cause it means Apple can make that product

00:39:52 ◼   ► but in doing so, they will also make Meta's product better

00:39:56 ◼   ► and they will have to compete

00:39:57 ◼   ► on a more level playing field with Meta.

00:39:58 ◼   ► Now, I would argue as the platform owner, as Apple,

00:40:02 ◼   ► they have so many advantages already

00:40:04 ◼   ► that letting Meta's product be a little bit better,

00:40:08 ◼   ► it's like, just let them, just let them.

00:40:10 ◼   ► You could probably beat them, just let them,

00:40:12 ◼   ► let them compete with you.

00:40:14 ◼   ► What I don't think is happening

00:40:16 ◼   ► but it's a little concerning is

00:40:18 ◼   ► that you might not go into an accessory category

00:40:22 ◼   ► 'cause you don't wanna make that stuff available

00:40:25 ◼   ► to your competitors, right?

00:40:26 ◼   ► Like, oh, well, this gives just let's Meta integrate stuff

00:40:29 ◼   ► with the iPhone without our control.

00:40:31 ◼   ► But you see the two-edged sword here, right?

00:40:36 ◼   ► Which is the secret sauce is all that integration.

00:40:40 ◼   ► But what the EU is saying is that integration is fine

00:40:43 ◼   ► as long as everybody can do that integration, right?

00:40:45 ◼   ► And I don't think the EU is saying you need to build

00:40:49 ◼   ► an entire smart glasses regime into iOS

00:40:53 ◼   ► because Meta wants you to.

00:40:55 ◼   ► But they are saying that if you're going to build

00:40:57 ◼   ► your own smart glasses and do special stuff

00:41:00 ◼   ► in your software to support them,

00:41:02 ◼   ► Meta needs that access too.

00:41:05 ◼   ► - Yeah. - And that is

00:41:07 ◼   ► an interesting place to end up.

00:41:08 ◼   ► - I believe, I'd heard this from somewhere

00:41:10 ◼   ► and I'm trying to find an attribution for it, but I can't.

00:41:12 ◼   ► But I'd heard it on at least,

00:41:14 ◼   ► I think maybe the VergeCast were talking about it,

00:41:16 ◼   ► that Mark Zuckerberg has been lodging

00:41:19 ◼   ► or Meta have been lodging complaints with the EU

00:41:21 ◼   ► about the fact that they can't put photos

00:41:25 ◼   ► in the camera roll on iPhone because they can on Android.

00:41:29 ◼   ► You can just, it just saves them straight to the camera roll.

00:41:32 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's ridiculous.

00:41:33 ◼   ► I mean, I know, I believe that, I haven't used this product,

00:41:37 ◼   ► but I believe that's because there's something involving,

00:41:38 ◼   ► it's like using Google Photos.

00:41:41 ◼   ► If the app's not active, it can't wake up

00:41:44 ◼   ► and put photos in the photo library.

00:41:47 ◼   ► I think it's something like that.

00:41:48 ◼   ► - You have to connect to the device.

00:41:50 ◼   ► It's actually really annoying.

00:41:51 ◼   ► So you open the app and it sees them,

00:41:53 ◼   ► and then you have to connect to the wifi network

00:41:56 ◼   ► of the device to download the images

00:41:59 ◼   ► from the device to the phone.

00:42:02 ◼   ► And then it says into the photo library.

00:42:04 ◼   ► And if they are able to just connect,

00:42:06 ◼   ► have like a constant connection,

00:42:08 ◼   ► they could transfer that over, but they can't do it on iOS.

00:42:10 ◼   ► - Right, and you know that that wouldn't be the case

00:42:12 ◼   ► with Apple stuff.

00:42:15 ◼   ► And that this is, I mean, my counterargument would be,

00:42:18 ◼   ► if Meta's asking for Apple to build them features

00:42:20 ◼   ► that don't exist to prioritize an Apple product,

00:42:25 ◼   ► I'm less interested in listening to that argument, right?

00:42:29 ◼   ► I think it becomes a much stronger argument

00:42:31 ◼   ► when Apple builds a product that has that feature

00:42:33 ◼   ► and doesn't allow Meta access to that feature, right?

00:42:37 ◼   ► I think that's the issue there.

00:42:39 ◼   ► Not saying, well, Android does it.

00:42:40 ◼   ► I think that's not good enough.

00:42:41 ◼   ► But this is a real, it's an interesting issue, right?

00:42:45 ◼   ► Because I'm actually confident

00:42:48 ◼   ► that if Apple were to build those glasses,

00:42:53 ◼   ► they would have to build it with APIs

00:42:58 ◼   ► that were accessible by third-party glasses,

00:43:01 ◼   ► accessory makers, right?

00:43:02 ◼   ► They would have to, if they wanted to ever ship that feature

00:43:04 ◼   ► and that product in Europe,

00:43:06 ◼   ► 'cause that's how it's working.

00:43:08 ◼   ► Now, honestly, a lot of what Apple ships these days

00:43:10 ◼   ► is built with APIs for third parties because of this.

00:43:14 ◼   ► It's already started.

00:43:15 ◼   ► It's already started.

00:43:18 ◼   ► The main reason that I wanted to bring lawyer up

00:43:21 ◼   ► back to this episode is that Bloomberg-

00:43:23 ◼   ► - Clunk, clunk.

00:43:24 ◼   ► - Bloomburg is reporting that Apple is set to receive

00:43:29 ◼   ► the first fine related to the DMA.

00:43:31 ◼   ► It's expected to land later this month

00:43:33 ◼   ► before Margaret Vestager,

00:43:35 ◼   ► the current EU competition commissioner,

00:43:37 ◼   ► is leaving her post.

00:43:38 ◼   ► - They're letting her dunk one.

00:43:41 ◼   ► - I mean, she's pushed this through, right?

00:43:45 ◼   ► So I think for her,

00:43:46 ◼   ► I expect she wants to do this before she moves on, right?

00:43:50 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah.

00:43:51 ◼   ► - Apparently, as well as the fine itself,

00:43:54 ◼   ► which will probably be very big,

00:43:56 ◼   ► like 10% of global revenue or whatever it is,

00:43:58 ◼   ► the EU could also demand periodic penalty payments

00:44:02 ◼   ► until Apple are seen to be fully compliant with the DMA.

00:44:05 ◼   ► It's expected that this fine and the penalties

00:44:08 ◼   ► would be in relation to the ways in which Apple

00:44:10 ◼   ► restricts developers from attempting to steer their users

00:44:13 ◼   ► away from, basically steer their users,

00:44:18 ◼   ► the ways in which Apple are trying to stop developers

00:44:21 ◼   ► from having a direct transaction, right?

00:44:25 ◼   ► So- - Right.

00:44:25 ◼   ► So you don't need to buy this here,

00:44:27 ◼   ► you can buy this on our website.

00:44:28 ◼   ► - Steering is the term, right?

00:44:30 ◼   ► - Right, yeah, right.

00:44:31 ◼   ► And the anti-steering stuff that Apple puts in,

00:44:33 ◼   ► 'cause they don't want you to,

00:44:36 ◼   ► they don't want you going somewhere else.

00:44:37 ◼   ► And so like, you know, don't, it's a classic, right?

00:44:40 ◼   ► Don't admit the web exists.

00:44:41 ◼   ► Don't admit the internet exists.

00:44:42 ◼   ► Don't admit that you have a website.

00:44:43 ◼   ► Netflix, pretend that you don't know how to log into,

00:44:47 ◼   ► how to make a Netflix account.

00:44:49 ◼   ► Just pretend, just act dumb.

00:44:51 ◼   ► And it's stupid.

00:44:51 ◼   ► And this is one of those areas where Apple,

00:44:54 ◼   ► I think that the interpretation of the EU

00:44:56 ◼   ► or the European Commission is that Apple

00:44:58 ◼   ► has paid this lip service,

00:45:00 ◼   ► but has failed to actually implement

00:45:03 ◼   ► what they told them to, which is stop steering people,

00:45:08 ◼   ► stop preventing apps from steering you away

00:45:10 ◼   ► from the App Store and Apple transactions.

00:45:13 ◼   ► They added some very limited functionality that is not,

00:45:16 ◼   ► you know, it's that typical, like not appealing to anyone.

00:45:19 ◼   ► And the EU is basically saying, no, that's not it.

00:45:23 ◼   ► You need to actually do this.

00:45:25 ◼   ► - Essentially, the things that they have done, right?

00:45:28 ◼   ► So developers are able to communicate deals

00:45:31 ◼   ► to their customers.

00:45:32 ◼   ► They're able to offer outside payment links, right?

00:45:34 ◼   ► So they can use alternative payment services,

00:45:37 ◼   ► but you still have the scare screens that pop up, right?

00:45:40 ◼   ► That say like, oh, you know,

00:45:41 ◼   ► can you trust this kind of thing?

00:45:42 ◼   ► You still have to give Apple their cut, right?

00:45:45 ◼   ► They're still gonna take their money.

00:45:46 ◼   ► And to be able to use these things,

00:45:49 ◼   ► you have to join the new payment business terms,

00:45:52 ◼   ► which include the core technology fee.

00:45:55 ◼   ► So I think potentially it's not really seen

00:45:57 ◼   ► as there is actually much of a choice, right?

00:45:59 ◼   ► Like if you're making this decision.

00:46:01 ◼   ► - And this is the process, right?

00:46:02 ◼   ► It's like, they say, here's what you have to do.

00:46:04 ◼   ► Apple does something.

00:46:05 ◼   ► In the end, if Apple's approaches to drag their feet

00:46:08 ◼   ► and say, no, no, we decided that this

00:46:10 ◼   ► is the appropriate determination,

00:46:12 ◼   ► their final recourse is to say,

00:46:14 ◼   ► you're operating outside the law

00:46:18 ◼   ► and we're gonna just keep finding you.

00:46:20 ◼   ► And if you wanna do business in the EU,

00:46:22 ◼   ► you're now gonna, you either follow our rules

00:46:24 ◼   ► or you're gonna pay us billions of dollars.

00:46:26 ◼   ► - So I guess if this happens,

00:46:28 ◼   ► we're at the crossroads, right?

00:46:30 ◼   ► We're here. - Yeah.

00:46:31 ◼   ► - Are they gonna pay the money?

00:46:32 ◼   ► Like this has been the game of chicken, right?

00:46:36 ◼   ► And we're still playing chicken

00:46:38 ◼   ► because Bloomberg got this information, right?

00:46:42 ◼   ► So everyone's still playing chicken here.

00:46:44 ◼   ► There's a lot of conversations,

00:46:45 ◼   ► I'm sure that happening in the last week

00:46:47 ◼   ► between Apple's lawyers

00:46:49 ◼   ► and the European Commission's lawyers.

00:46:51 ◼   ► But if they give them this fine,

00:46:53 ◼   ► and I don't know what the kind of consequences would be,

00:46:57 ◼   ► like if you don't pay the fine, then what?

00:47:00 ◼   ► Like, do you, does Tim Cook go to prison

00:47:03 ◼   ► if he goes to Paris?

00:47:04 ◼   ► Like what happens, right?

00:47:06 ◼   ► We don't know.

00:47:07 ◼   ► But here's my question for you,

00:47:08 ◼   ► and I'm sorry to ask this question, we're gonna ask it.

00:47:11 ◼   ► Do you think this changes

00:47:14 ◼   ► because the president is changing?

00:47:15 ◼   ► Do you think that there is a possibility

00:47:20 ◼   ► that the Trump approach would be different

00:47:22 ◼   ► to the Biden approach?

00:47:23 ◼   ► 'Cause the Biden approach to the EU's DMA

00:47:26 ◼   ► has been, I don't know what you're talking about, right?

00:47:28 ◼   ► They've just done nothing, it seems, right?

00:47:30 ◼   ► They've not really any comment.

00:47:32 ◼   ► Do you imagine a scenario where that is different?

00:47:36 ◼   ► - I have a hard time imagining that the EU

00:47:39 ◼   ► is gonna back down from this approach.

00:47:41 ◼   ► - Yeah, because if they put this fine up

00:47:45 ◼   ► and then immediately back down,

00:47:47 ◼   ► then what was the point of it, right?

00:47:48 ◼   ► Like it's like-- - Exactly.

00:47:49 ◼   ► - They kind of have to stick to this,

00:47:51 ◼   ► but like I just, I can't see how this is playing out, right?

00:47:55 ◼   ► Apple's not gonna give,

00:47:57 ◼   ► I cannot believe that Apple will give the European Union

00:48:00 ◼   ► 10% of their revenue that they have made this year.

00:48:03 ◼   ► I can't imagine it happening.

00:48:05 ◼   ► Apple will, well, look,

00:48:06 ◼   ► Apple just gave 10 billion to Ireland.

00:48:09 ◼   ► - Yeah, but that was a taxi thing, right?

00:48:12 ◼   ► Like that was like a, they shouldn't have done this

00:48:14 ◼   ► and they did it, you know?

00:48:15 ◼   ► - Bottom line, this is, do you wanna do business in the EU?

00:48:18 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:48:19 ◼   ► - And ultimately you either need to pay the fine

00:48:21 ◼   ► or you need to not.

00:48:22 ◼   ► This is not like Russia fining them,

00:48:24 ◼   ► where Apple's like, whatever,

00:48:26 ◼   ► because we're not gonna do business with you.

00:48:28 ◼   ► Apple, and I don't think it's realistic

00:48:30 ◼   ► to say Apple's going to pull out of selling things in the EU.

00:48:33 ◼   ► I don't think that that's gonna happen.

00:48:34 ◼   ► I know there are people who make that comment.

00:48:37 ◼   ► I think it's unrealistic for that to be the case.

00:48:40 ◼   ► - But let me just, if you would allow me

00:48:42 ◼   ► to devil's advocate this, right?

00:48:44 ◼   ► Let's say that Apple have decided

00:48:47 ◼   ► they're not changing the way that the App Store works, right?

00:48:49 ◼   ► That they will not do what Europe wants them to do.

00:48:54 ◼   ► They will be fine forever.

00:48:55 ◼   ► Now, at a certain point,

00:48:57 ◼   ► that fine is going to be more money than they make.

00:49:00 ◼   ► In that scenario, then what?

00:49:04 ◼   ► - Okay, so, well, that's not gonna happen.

00:49:06 ◼   ► It's not gonna happen.

00:49:08 ◼   ► Either, look, either you are following the laws,

00:49:13 ◼   ► which I would argue they have to do,

00:49:15 ◼   ► because it doesn't stop with the EU.

00:49:18 ◼   ► - You don't have to like them.

00:49:20 ◼   ► But you do have to follow them.

00:49:21 ◼   ► - You don't have to like them, but you have to follow them.

00:49:22 ◼   ► That's right.

00:49:24 ◼   ► That's, you know, don't murder everybody.

00:49:26 ◼   ► So, that's a reference, sorry.

00:49:30 ◼   ► Little aside.

00:49:31 ◼   ► The, don't, Mike.

00:49:34 ◼   ► - Don't.

00:49:35 ◼   ► - Real men don't murder.

00:49:36 ◼   ► - Real men don't.

00:49:37 ◼   ► - You either play ball or you don't.

00:49:38 ◼   ► But the problem is if you walk away,

00:49:40 ◼   ► if you take your ball and go home,

00:49:42 ◼   ► you're basically committing to taking your ball

00:49:44 ◼   ► and going home from every region and country

00:49:49 ◼   ► that puts these rules in place.

00:49:51 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:49:52 ◼   ► - And that is a high-stakes game.

00:49:53 ◼   ► - Which could include the USA at some point.

00:49:56 ◼   ► - Right.

00:49:56 ◼   ► - Like, it could include the USA at some point.

00:49:58 ◼   ► - It could, but probably not.

00:50:02 ◼   ► I guess what I would say is you're committing

00:50:05 ◼   ► to a very high-stakes poker game

00:50:06 ◼   ► where you're basically saying to every regulator

00:50:09 ◼   ► in the world, do you want Apple products in your country?

00:50:13 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:50:14 ◼   ► - Because if you do, you can't regulate us like this

00:50:18 ◼   ► or we're gonna walk away.

00:50:19 ◼   ► Personally, I don't think that's gonna happen.

00:50:22 ◼   ► And my number one reason is because Apple

00:50:25 ◼   ► is already playing ball with the European Commission, right?

00:50:29 ◼   ► - Yeah, but are they though?

00:50:29 ◼   ► - They're already changing all of this.

00:50:30 ◼   ► - Right?

00:50:31 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:50:32 ◼   ► - Well, they're doing things, right?

00:50:36 ◼   ► They're not doing what they want them to do.

00:50:39 ◼   ► And we've known this the whole time.

00:50:41 ◼   ► - So I think the fact that they have been doing it,

00:50:45 ◼   ► dragging their feet, fighting it, not trying to overdo it,

00:50:48 ◼   ► do literally the minimum responsible,

00:50:51 ◼   ► I think suggests that they're most likely

00:50:54 ◼   ► going to continue that.

00:50:56 ◼   ► The alternative would be for them to walk away.

00:50:58 ◼   ► Again, the alternative would be we're going to walk away.

00:51:01 ◼   ► And that could even be a negotiating tactic

00:51:04 ◼   ► where they say, all right, we're gonna pull out of the EU

00:51:07 ◼   ► and see if the countries of the EU

00:51:12 ◼   ► and the European Parliament,

00:51:14 ◼   ► 'cause that's the other part of the politics here, right?

00:51:16 ◼   ► I don't know anything about European politics

00:51:19 ◼   ► and European community politics,

00:51:21 ◼   ► European Union politics are weird

00:51:23 ◼   ► because they're elected from the countries

00:51:27 ◼   ► but separate elections from the elections in the countries.

00:51:31 ◼   ► It's a different kind of thing.

00:51:33 ◼   ► You think the electoral college is weird.

00:51:36 ◼   ► There's lots of weird electoral things out there.

00:51:38 ◼   ► And so sometimes the people,

00:51:41 ◼   ► and they don't always function as a block, but anyway,

00:51:44 ◼   ► so I guess my question would be,

00:51:47 ◼   ► one change is that the political desire in Europe

00:51:52 ◼   ► to go down the path of regulating big tech

00:51:56 ◼   ► becomes less.

00:51:58 ◼   ► My understanding is that it's not gonna happen.

00:52:00 ◼   ► But if it were to happen, that would be one thing

00:52:02 ◼   ► where literally the European Parliament could be like,

00:52:05 ◼   ► EC, uh-uh, DMA, it's out.

00:52:09 ◼   ► We're gonna repeal it, it's gone.

00:52:12 ◼   ► We don't wanna do that.

00:52:12 ◼   ► We love big tech companies.

00:52:14 ◼   ► They could do that.

00:52:15 ◼   ► I get the feeling that they won't, but they could do that.

00:52:17 ◼   ► But if Apple wanted to make a stink and say,

00:52:19 ◼   ► we're gonna just leave the EU,

00:52:20 ◼   ► it would be potentially calling them on that point.

00:52:23 ◼   ► It could also be a negotiating tactic where it's like,

00:52:25 ◼   ► okay, do this and we'll waive the fine,

00:52:28 ◼   ► or do this and the final will be lessened or whatever.

00:52:31 ◼   ► I'm not saying it's impossible.

00:52:32 ◼   ► I'm just saying that they already are playing this game,

00:52:35 ◼   ► which leads me to believe

00:52:36 ◼   ► they will continue playing this game.

00:52:38 ◼   ► It would take a real hard liner inside of Apple to say,

00:52:42 ◼   ► no, this is where we draw the line, this far, no further.

00:52:45 ◼   ► And we're doing this not just for Europe,

00:52:48 ◼   ► but for everywhere else.

00:52:49 ◼   ► We're basically going to threaten,

00:52:51 ◼   ► how good does Apple think it is?

00:52:54 ◼   ► We're gonna threaten the world with,

00:52:56 ◼   ► if you regulate us, you don't get our stuff.

00:53:00 ◼   ► - That is an incredible thing to say.

00:53:03 ◼   ► That is like super villain kind of stuff.

00:53:06 ◼   ► - It is, it is.

00:53:08 ◼   ► Well, one way that Apple's getting carbon neutral

00:53:10 ◼   ► is that they found an island in the Pacific

00:53:12 ◼   ► where they're relocating.

00:53:14 ◼   ► Anyway, yes, it is super villain stuff.

00:53:17 ◼   ► And the problem, I mean,

00:53:18 ◼   ► the danger is that Apple is so arrogant

00:53:20 ◼   ► that they believe that withholding Apple's

00:53:22 ◼   ► beautiful greatness from individual regions

00:53:25 ◼   ► will terrify the politicians and the regulators

00:53:27 ◼   ► in those countries.

00:53:28 ◼   ► And they'll be like, no, no, no, Apple, please don't go.

00:53:30 ◼   ► I think the reality is that Apple needs,

00:53:32 ◼   ► in most cases, Apple needs them more than they need Apple.

00:53:37 ◼   ► That's the bottom line is like,

00:53:40 ◼   ► Apple needs money and growth in all these regions.

00:53:43 ◼   ► And if Japan comes and says,

00:53:45 ◼   ► you need to change your app store rules,

00:53:48 ◼   ► like Japan's a big market for Apple.

00:53:50 ◼   ► They're not gonna walk away.

00:53:51 ◼   ► The EU is a big market.

00:53:53 ◼   ► And that's why I don't believe them.

00:53:55 ◼   ► I don't believe they would walk away

00:53:57 ◼   ► because I think that they would be a cascade

00:54:00 ◼   ► of lost markets.

00:54:02 ◼   ► And that is, again, it's a tough one

00:54:06 ◼   ► because it's Apple's desire for money

00:54:09 ◼   ► and Apple's desire for control.

00:54:12 ◼   ► But I believe that in the end,

00:54:15 ◼   ► Apple wants money more than it wants control.

00:54:17 ◼   ► And if it's, let's see,

00:54:20 ◼   ► we could let people link to outside the app store,

00:54:24 ◼   ► or we can't sell products in the European Union

00:54:27 ◼   ► or Japan or Australia or India or whatever,

00:54:32 ◼   ► you start to list them.

00:54:36 ◼   ► Like, come on, you would have to be

00:54:39 ◼   ► the hardest of hardliners to say,

00:54:42 ◼   ► the right thing to do is forego all of that revenue

00:54:45 ◼   ► in order to maintain that control.

00:54:49 ◼   ► The only thing I'll say about the incoming administration

00:54:53 ◼   ► in the US is that it's gonna be super friendly to business.

00:54:57 ◼   ► And I think the only thing there would be,

00:55:02 ◼   ► we go back to politics,

00:55:03 ◼   ► if there is some incredible trade war that happens

00:55:06 ◼   ► where the EU is super disaffected with the United States,

00:55:09 ◼   ► or the US is going to pressure the EU

00:55:13 ◼   ► to lower their restrictions on big tech companies,

00:55:15 ◼   ► and it creates a political environment

00:55:17 ◼   ► where the European Parliament backtracks again,

00:55:21 ◼   ► backtracks on the DMA, that could be a scenario,

00:55:24 ◼   ► but it doesn't seem to me to be as likely.

00:55:28 ◼   ► Nothing is impossible.

00:55:30 ◼   ► I think last week proved that, anything could happen.

00:55:36 ◼   ► But I think it's more that the US will remain

00:55:40 ◼   ► a favorable place for Apple in a lot of ways.

00:55:43 ◼   ► We haven't even talked about,

00:55:45 ◼   ► Apple does a lot of business in China,

00:55:46 ◼   ► and there are a lot of tariffs coming from China,

00:55:47 ◼   ► and tariffs that may be placed in the way

00:55:52 ◼   ► of companies that do business in China.

00:55:54 ◼   ► My quick read on that is, it's an issue for Apple,

00:55:58 ◼   ► but I feel like this is why Tim Cook,

00:56:00 ◼   ► congratulations Donald Trump on being president,

00:56:03 ◼   ► Tim Apple goes to those things,

00:56:05 ◼   ► invites Trump to his factories in the US.

00:56:08 ◼   ► I think the quid pro quo there is,

00:56:11 ◼   ► be visible with the president,

00:56:13 ◼   ► agree to some stuff that gives a surface veneer of USA, USA,

00:56:18 ◼   ► and if you do all of that, we'll find a way

00:56:22 ◼   ► for your business not to be hurt by what we're doing,

00:56:24 ◼   ► 'cause it's more about making people feel good

00:56:27 ◼   ► than it is about, because again,

00:56:29 ◼   ► although the incoming administration

00:56:33 ◼   ► is totally going to be trade war with China focused,

00:56:38 ◼   ► what you don't wanna do is be seen as destroying

00:56:42 ◼   ► one of America's most successful companies,

00:56:45 ◼   ► not just in the US, but worldwide.

00:56:47 ◼   ► You don't want that.

00:56:48 ◼   ► That's not, Apple, I firmly believe,

00:56:50 ◼   ► is not going to be a victim of a trade war with China.

00:56:53 ◼   ► - Well, they weren't last time, right?

00:56:56 ◼   ► - Exactly, and Apple's important.

00:56:58 ◼   ► Apple, and the last thing,

00:56:59 ◼   ► American politicians wanna look tough on trade,

00:57:01 ◼   ► but what they don't wanna do is destroy American companies.

00:57:04 ◼   ► They don't wanna do it.

00:57:04 ◼   ► They wanna make it look like they've convinced

00:57:07 ◼   ► the American companies to be more USA centric, they do,

00:57:11 ◼   ► and that's what Apple did last time.

00:57:13 ◼   ► So that'll happen again.

00:57:14 ◼   ► So unless there's a real schism with the EU.

00:57:16 ◼   ► - It's like where last time,

00:57:17 ◼   ► Tim Cook kind of was getting the moniker

00:57:19 ◼   ► of America's ambassador to China, right?

00:57:22 ◼   ► For these reasons.

00:57:24 ◼   ► Like he has got a phone in each hand.

00:57:27 ◼   ► One of them has the US president,

00:57:28 ◼   ► and one has the Chinese leader, right?

00:57:31 ◼   ► - He uses so many different Apple products at once, yeah.

00:57:34 ◼   ► - I do just wanna read a little bit

00:57:36 ◼   ► from the Bloomberg article, right?

00:57:38 ◼   ► Going back to the money of it all.

00:57:39 ◼   ► "Under the law, EU regulators have powers to find

00:57:42 ◼   ► "the world's most powerful tech firms

00:57:43 ◼   ► "10% of their global annual sales,

00:57:46 ◼   ► "20% in the event of repeated infringement,

00:57:48 ◼   ► "or periodic fines of as much as $5

00:57:51 ◼   ► "of the average daily revenue."

00:57:52 ◼   ► - 5%.

00:57:53 ◼   ► - Oh, sorry, yeah, 5%.

00:57:54 ◼   ► So that would be, right?

00:57:56 ◼   ► To start with, if they do this rule,

00:57:58 ◼   ► that this fine would be $39 billion,

00:58:01 ◼   ► which is 10% of their revenue for this year.

00:58:04 ◼   ► They're going to continue repeatedly infringing it, I expect.

00:58:08 ◼   ► So that will be, I don't know, 20% more of that.

00:58:10 ◼   ► I don't really get that 20% part,

00:58:11 ◼   ► but let's just do the periodic thing.

00:58:13 ◼   ► "5% of their average daily revenue every day

00:58:17 ◼   ► "until they get compliant."

00:58:19 ◼   ► Like, I know what you were saying about Ireland.

00:58:21 ◼   ► Ireland was 13 billion.

00:58:23 ◼   ► The beginning of this is three times that.

00:58:25 ◼   ► - Sure.

00:58:26 ◼   ► - It's gonna be a problem, it's a problem.

00:58:28 ◼   ► It's a problem.

00:58:29 ◼   ► - It is, I'm just saying that I think that in the end,

00:58:33 ◼   ► they will play ball.

00:58:34 ◼   ► - I mean, they're gonna have to.

00:58:37 ◼   ► Because again, it's revenue versus control.

00:58:41 ◼   ► And it's not just the cost of the fine,

00:58:42 ◼   ► it's the cost of abandoning every market

00:58:44 ◼   ► that regulates Apple.

00:58:46 ◼   ► And I don't know what they're gonna do,

00:58:48 ◼   ► because I would say, my impression is

00:58:50 ◼   ► that there are people within Apple who are hardliners,

00:58:53 ◼   ► who really believe like, no, let's just get out of there.

00:58:57 ◼   ► But I think in the end, when Wall Street wants growth,

00:59:01 ◼   ► you can't abandon markets.

00:59:03 ◼   ► And also, it's not just the EU,

00:59:05 ◼   ► it's literally every other market that wants

00:59:07 ◼   ► to regulate Apple, who has the upper hand.

00:59:09 ◼   ► Apple's, what does Apple threaten?

00:59:11 ◼   ► Apple can only threaten leaving.

00:59:14 ◼   ► And if you're a company, or if you're a country or a region

00:59:18 ◼   ► that really believes that big tech is out of control,

00:59:20 ◼   ► I'm not sure that is enough, right?

00:59:26 ◼   ► The threat of Apple abandoning your country is like,

00:59:28 ◼   ► well, yeah, but you're gonna lose access to our market then.

00:59:31 ◼   ► And you want our money, right?

00:59:34 ◼   ► So I think in the end, I mean, we'll see what happens in,

00:59:38 ◼   ► we're back to internal Apple politics,

00:59:40 ◼   ► but at some point, somebody just has to say,

00:59:44 ◼   ► what is obvious and has been obvious since the beginning,

00:59:46 ◼   ► which is, steering people away from the app store

00:59:49 ◼   ► isn't worth this.

00:59:51 ◼   ► It's not worth it.

00:59:53 ◼   ► - Yes, it's not worth a lot of things that they do,

00:59:57 ◼   ► you know what I mean?

00:59:58 ◼   ► It's not worth a lot of it.

00:59:59 ◼   ► - A lot of things they do aren't worth it.

01:00:01 ◼   ► Apple, for all of the times that Apple acts,

01:00:06 ◼   ► confident to the point of arrogance

01:00:08 ◼   ► about the quality of everything they do,

01:00:10 ◼   ► when it comes to competition, sometimes they sure act small.

01:00:16 ◼   ► And this is an example where there are so many advantages

01:00:22 ◼   ► that Apple has on its platforms.

01:00:24 ◼   ► So many advantages in being the easy, already pre-wired,

01:00:27 ◼   ► you can pay for it, whatever.

01:00:30 ◼   ► And yet they're willing to risk billions of dollars

01:00:33 ◼   ► in fines, tens of billions of dollars in fines,

01:00:36 ◼   ► because they're afraid to compete with the outside.

01:00:41 ◼   ► And maybe when nobody is regulating you,

01:00:48 ◼   ► even if it's some millions of dollars,

01:00:52 ◼   ► but not billions of dollars, even if it's money,

01:00:55 ◼   ► why would we give it away when we can keep it?

01:00:58 ◼   ► Once one of your regulators comes to you and says,

01:01:00 ◼   ► "No, if you keep doing that,

01:01:01 ◼   ► "it's not gonna cost you millions,

01:01:02 ◼   ► "it's gonna cost you billions,"

01:01:05 ◼   ► then the conversation changes.

01:01:06 ◼   ► So look, the challenge here is

01:01:11 ◼   ► we don't know what the politics are.

01:01:12 ◼   ► We don't know what Apple's internal politics are.

01:01:14 ◼   ► We don't know what the European Commission's

01:01:16 ◼   ► internal politics are,

01:01:17 ◼   ► and the European Parliament's internal politics are.

01:01:19 ◼   ► Nor do we know about other countries in other regions

01:01:22 ◼   ► that are looking at what's happening in Europe.

01:01:24 ◼   ► And I'm telling you, they're all like,

01:01:26 ◼   ► "Oh, we're gonna do that too,

01:01:27 ◼   ► "if it makes us look good."

01:01:29 ◼   ► Right?

01:01:30 ◼   ► So it's a high stakes gambit here, right?

01:01:34 ◼   ► And if I were at Apple, my gut feeling is

01:01:38 ◼   ► you just got a cave because it's not gonna stop at the EU.

01:01:42 ◼   ► You can't start abandoning categories, right?

01:01:45 ◼   ► You can't do it.

01:01:46 ◼   ► And so you just have to take it.

01:01:49 ◼   ► And they're not gonna like it,

01:01:51 ◼   ► but they're gonna have to take it.

01:01:52 ◼   ► And their strategy so far has been this

01:01:57 ◼   ► passive aggressive resistance strategy, right?

01:02:00 ◼   ► It's the, we'll do what we think the letter of the law is,

01:02:03 ◼   ► but no further.

01:02:05 ◼   ► And maybe these fines will be the thing that forces them

01:02:10 ◼   ► to realize that that is not gonna work.

01:02:12 ◼   ► That's not a winning strategy.

01:02:14 ◼   ► 'Cause they're trying to make it like,

01:02:15 ◼   ► "Oh, well, we did what you said."

01:02:18 ◼   ► And the commission comes back and says, "No, you didn't.

01:02:20 ◼   ► "You interpreted this in the most favorable way for you,

01:02:24 ◼   ► "but you've completely missed the point.

01:02:26 ◼   ► "And we told you you missed the point."

01:02:28 ◼   ► And at this point you either get the point

01:02:31 ◼   ► or you get fined billions of dollars

01:02:34 ◼   ► over again and again.

01:02:38 ◼   ► It's not pay a fine and walk away scot-free.

01:02:41 ◼   ► You will pay a fine and then keep paying it

01:02:44 ◼   ► until you do what we want, until we're satisfied,

01:02:47 ◼   ► because that's the relationship is you need to satisfy us.

01:02:50 ◼   ► And unless there's somebody at Apple who's a hardliner

01:02:53 ◼   ► who's like, "This destroys our business

01:02:54 ◼   ► "and our business model.

01:02:55 ◼   ► "And we can't do business here."

01:02:57 ◼   ► And they choose to walk away.

01:02:58 ◼   ► I would argue even that is probably a negotiation tactic

01:03:01 ◼   ► because I just can't see Apple saying,

01:03:03 ◼   ► "We won't do business in any place

01:03:05 ◼   ► "that dares to regulate us."

01:03:06 ◼   ► I just don't think that's gonna fly.

01:03:09 ◼   ► - Well, I look forward to seeing

01:03:10 ◼   ► how the rest of this month unfolds,

01:03:12 ◼   ► if they're actually gonna do this.

01:03:14 ◼   ► It's gonna be messy and we'll see.

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01:04:29 ◼   ► So the M4 Macs are available now,

01:04:34 ◼   ► and you have over at Six Colors, the whole team,

01:04:37 ◼   ► you and Dan, have been working on reviews.

01:04:40 ◼   ► So you had the Mac Pro and the iMac,

01:04:43 ◼   ► and Dan had the Mac Mini, right?

01:04:45 ◼   ► - Yes, correct.

01:04:46 ◼   ► - Have you used or seen a Mac Mini at all,

01:04:48 ◼   ► or did I just go completely to that?

01:04:50 ◼   ► - I haven't.

01:04:51 ◼   ► I haven't, Dan's got it.

01:04:53 ◼   ► - So I would like to- - It's in the East Coast Bureau.

01:04:55 ◼   ► - East Coast Bureau, I love that so much.

01:04:56 ◼   ► It makes me smile at the bottom of every Dan post.

01:05:00 ◼   ► It's the East Coast Bureau Chief.

01:05:02 ◼   ► Are you the West Coast Bureau Chief?

01:05:04 ◼   ► - No, I'm the Editor-in-Chief.

01:05:05 ◼   ► - Okay, so there is no West Coast Bureau Chief?

01:05:08 ◼   ► - No, there doesn't need to be, 'cause it's me.

01:05:10 ◼   ► - Couldn't you be both, though?

01:05:12 ◼   ► - But I'm not.

01:05:13 ◼   ► - Okay, you can manage yourself.

01:05:14 ◼   ► You know, you can have like one-to-ones.

01:05:15 ◼   ► Anyway. - I do, frequently.

01:05:17 ◼   ► - Takeaways, what are your opinions

01:05:21 ◼   ► on the performance of the M4 chips?

01:05:23 ◼   ► - Yeah, so I got the M4 and the M4 Pro.

01:05:25 ◼   ► Short version is M4 Pro equals M3 Max (laughs)

01:05:32 ◼   ► for some things, other than the GPUs.

01:05:34 ◼   ► I mean, the GPUs, what a Max chip gets you

01:05:37 ◼   ► is maybe a couple more cores, right?

01:05:39 ◼   ► But what it really gets you is, or CPU cores,

01:05:42 ◼   ► but it gets you the option to have lots and lots

01:05:44 ◼   ► of GPU cores that are not in the Pro.

01:05:47 ◼   ► So if you're a GPU-constrained person

01:05:50 ◼   ► and you just want the most GPUs possible,

01:05:52 ◼   ► that's what the Max is for.

01:05:54 ◼   ► But the Pro is for everybody else,

01:05:55 ◼   ► 'cause it's still got a lot of GPU cores,

01:05:57 ◼   ► it's just not as, it's got 10 and not 20,

01:05:59 ◼   ► but like, it's still pretty good.

01:06:01 ◼   ► And performance keeps going up, right?

01:06:04 ◼   ► Like the base M4, that was part of my takeaway, actually.

01:06:08 ◼   ► It's a challenge, 'cause Dan got to review

01:06:09 ◼   ► the new hot thing, and I got to review

01:06:12 ◼   ► the just incremental updated Mac models.

01:06:16 ◼   ► But I will say one of my big takeaways

01:06:18 ◼   ► of this review cycle was that the M4 MacBook Pro,

01:06:23 ◼   ► the base model, which has been a joke for a while, right?

01:06:31 ◼   ► Like it went through the process where it was

01:06:34 ◼   ► like the last touch bar model, and it was like,

01:06:36 ◼   ► why would anybody buy this?

01:06:37 ◼   ► And why is this even called a MacBook Pro?

01:06:39 ◼   ► 'Cause it's basically like a MacBook Air, but with a fan,

01:06:42 ◼   ► but otherwise the MacBook Air is nicer in every way,

01:06:45 ◼   ► and all that, and it's evolved over time.

01:06:48 ◼   ► Got the screen last time, I believe,

01:06:50 ◼   ► and now it's got the screen and it's got an extra port.

01:06:52 ◼   ► And also the M4 is a very capable chip.

01:06:54 ◼   ► And I feel like I've come around to the point

01:06:57 ◼   ► where the M4 MacBook Pro feels like a full fledged member

01:07:01 ◼   ► of the MacBook Pro line, and there are lots of reasons

01:07:04 ◼   ► that you would choose it over the MacBook Air.

01:07:05 ◼   ► I don't know if I would choose it over the MacBook Air,

01:07:07 ◼   ► but there are a lot of reasons one might choose it,

01:07:10 ◼   ► 'cause it is a MacBook Pro.

01:07:12 ◼   ► Yes, it's heavier and thicker and all of that,

01:07:13 ◼   ► but it's also got the fan, so it's gonna run

01:07:15 ◼   ► a little bit faster.

01:07:16 ◼   ► It's got the ports on both sides, which is really nice.

01:07:19 ◼   ► It didn't used to have that.

01:07:19 ◼   ► It comes in the black color that it didn't used

01:07:22 ◼   ► to be allowed to have, 'cause that was only

01:07:24 ◼   ► for the better MacBook Pros.

01:07:25 ◼   ► It's just better in all those ways.

01:07:27 ◼   ► Got the webcam that's new and improved over the old webcam.

01:07:31 ◼   ► So part of that is that the M4 is that much better, right?

01:07:36 ◼   ► It just keeps getting better.

01:07:37 ◼   ► And part of that is that they've upgraded the rest

01:07:40 ◼   ► of the base model MacBook Pro to feel like,

01:07:43 ◼   ► it feels like they're not withholding fundamental features

01:07:46 ◼   ► of the product line from the base model,

01:07:48 ◼   ► which is how it used to be.

01:07:49 ◼   ► Now it's just the one with the M4 chip in it.

01:07:53 ◼   ► And I think that's better.

01:07:54 ◼   ► It feels less like this redheaded stepchild

01:07:57 ◼   ► of the MacBook Pro line and more like an actual

01:08:00 ◼   ► full-fledged member.

01:08:03 ◼   ► So, but yeah, Apple's doing a great job with the chips.

01:08:07 ◼   ► The chips just keep advancing,

01:08:08 ◼   ► and the Pro took a big step forward this time

01:08:11 ◼   ► to the point where I feel like there are a lot of people

01:08:14 ◼   ► out there with older Macs chips who may look at the Pro,

01:08:19 ◼   ► including not just the MacBook Pro,

01:08:21 ◼   ► but also like a Mac Studio versus a Mac Mini,

01:08:25 ◼   ► for whom the extra, we don't know what's gonna be

01:08:27 ◼   ► in the Ultra, right?

01:08:29 ◼   ► But if you're not looking for the Ultra,

01:08:31 ◼   ► and you're just gonna go with the Macs,

01:08:32 ◼   ► we don't know what the specs are gonna be

01:08:34 ◼   ► of an M4 Macs studio.

01:08:37 ◼   ► And they may cross over.

01:08:38 ◼   ► It may be one of those things where you could get either one

01:08:40 ◼   ► and they're both pretty close together.

01:08:42 ◼   ► The build up of an M4 Pro Mac Mini

01:08:46 ◼   ► versus an M4 Macs studio,

01:08:50 ◼   ► there'll be a little bit of a crossover there

01:08:52 ◼   ► and you get more GPU cores and like, I could see that.

01:08:55 ◼   ► But I think for a lot of people,

01:08:57 ◼   ► it's just not worth it, right?

01:08:59 ◼   ► Unless you really need all that extra stuff.

01:09:01 ◼   ► And I'm speaking, when I speak about a lot of people,

01:09:03 ◼   ► I'm including us in this.

01:09:05 ◼   ► Like the M4 Pro is so powerful.

01:09:07 ◼   ► I'm not sure that more is necessary

01:09:10 ◼   ► unless you're in a very stratified, rarefied,

01:09:13 ◼   ► special high-end position where you really need to crank it

01:09:17 ◼   ► on GPU cores or whatever.

01:09:18 ◼   ► - Yeah, I think that Apple have done a good job

01:09:20 ◼   ► of actually naming these chips, right?

01:09:22 ◼   ► That there is the standard one, there's the Pro one,

01:09:24 ◼   ► and then Macs and Ultra.

01:09:26 ◼   ► The names of those, like if you take them out of the context

01:09:29 ◼   ► of the way that Apple uses those names in other places,

01:09:31 ◼   ► which isn't like, it doesn't really, I think, do the job.

01:09:35 ◼   ► Like with these chips at least,

01:09:37 ◼   ► like Macs and Ultra should be scary names to you

01:09:40 ◼   ► because they're scary chips.

01:09:42 ◼   ► Like you don't need that.

01:09:43 ◼   ► Like they are very specific use cases.

01:09:46 ◼   ► - You know if you need it.

01:09:47 ◼   ► And if you don't know if you need it, you don't need it.

01:09:49 ◼   ► - Like genuinely, I really,

01:09:51 ◼   ► probably no one should buy the Ultra.

01:09:53 ◼   ► Realistically, it's too much computer

01:09:56 ◼   ► for basically everyone.

01:09:58 ◼   ► - Yeah, the people who need the Ultra know who they are.

01:10:01 ◼   ► - Yeah, so I would say that the most key takeaway

01:10:05 ◼   ► you've given me there though, is what you said at the start,

01:10:08 ◼   ► which is that the M4 Pro is basically the M3 Max chip.

01:10:11 ◼   ► Like that's pretty impressive, I think.

01:10:14 ◼   ► - Other than that it has fewer GPU cores,

01:10:16 ◼   ► but otherwise, yeah, it's the performance.

01:10:19 ◼   ► It's come a long way.

01:10:20 ◼   ► Like the M4 Pro is, I don't wanna think about

01:10:24 ◼   ► how it performs compared to my M1 Max studio,

01:10:29 ◼   ► but it's faster, right?

01:10:31 ◼   ► Like it's faster.

01:10:32 ◼   ► It just is.

01:10:33 ◼   ► That's just how it is.

01:10:35 ◼   ► And so that's, you know, this is time marches on.

01:10:39 ◼   ► But what it makes me feel again is that for most people,

01:10:43 ◼   ► first off for most people, the M4 is plenty,

01:10:46 ◼   ► which is one of the reasons why I thought,

01:10:48 ◼   ► you know what you want a MacBook Pro

01:10:50 ◼   ► or your corporation only buys MacBook Pros

01:10:51 ◼   ► and won't buy MacBook Airs.

01:10:53 ◼   ► Like the M4 MacBook Pro is great

01:10:57 ◼   ► 'cause the screen is amazing.

01:10:58 ◼   ► And it's got ports on both sides,

01:11:00 ◼   ► which, you know, if you've ever had a situation

01:11:02 ◼   ► where you're like, yeah, but I wanna charge on this side,

01:11:04 ◼   ► or I wanna plug something in on this side,

01:11:06 ◼   ► and on that low end configuration, it's like, nope, you can't.

01:11:08 ◼   ► It's all on the left side, only on the left side.

01:11:11 ◼   ► Great.

01:11:11 ◼   ► So it's got all that, but like the M4 is so good

01:11:13 ◼   ► that like, do you need to pay more money

01:11:16 ◼   ► for an M4 Pro, MacBook Pro?

01:11:17 ◼   ► A lot of people just don't.

01:11:19 ◼   ► They just don't.

01:11:21 ◼   ► I could argue that Apple Silicon is so good

01:11:22 ◼   ► that there are very few people who even need to upgrade

01:11:25 ◼   ► from an M1 to an M4 because the M1 is still so good.

01:11:30 ◼   ► So certainly the M4 as a base chip is great.

01:11:33 ◼   ► And then the Pro is that much more powerful

01:11:37 ◼   ► in a lot of ways in CPU and in GPU.

01:11:41 ◼   ► It does a whole lot more.

01:11:42 ◼   ► It's a really nice leap.

01:11:44 ◼   ► If these are the only two chips Apple made,

01:11:46 ◼   ► it would be pretty good.

01:11:49 ◼   ► The high, high end people would be sad,

01:11:51 ◼   ► but it's an increasingly small amount of people.

01:11:55 ◼   ► They have reasons to be sad that are other

01:11:57 ◼   ► than just the power of the chip.

01:11:59 ◼   ► They do.

01:12:00 ◼   ► I think in fact-

01:12:01 ◼   ► Apple don't really make a computer for them anymore.

01:12:04 ◼   ► If you asked me before Apple Silicon was announced

01:12:06 ◼   ► what Apple strategy was gonna be,

01:12:09 ◼   ► I would basically say, look at the M4 and the M4 Pro.

01:12:12 ◼   ► That's what I thought the strategy would be,

01:12:13 ◼   ► which is we've got a phone chip that does a Mac thing.

01:12:17 ◼   ► And then we've got the like the better one

01:12:19 ◼   ► that is for Pros.

01:12:20 ◼   ► And they write it off then.

01:12:21 ◼   ► The fact that they have a Mac Studio and a Mac Pro

01:12:24 ◼   ► and an M4 Max chip and a forthcoming M4 Ultra presumably.

01:12:29 ◼   ► That's Apple going above and beyond

01:12:32 ◼   ► for the high end of their market,

01:12:33 ◼   ► because that's what they can do.

01:12:35 ◼   ► Like there's all the other things they can't do,

01:12:37 ◼   ► but that is what they can do is scale up that thing.

01:12:39 ◼   ► And that's great again,

01:12:41 ◼   ► but the M4 Pro is so good that I think it will slice away

01:12:46 ◼   ► a whole bunch of users who might have

01:12:49 ◼   ► previously focused on the Max,

01:12:51 ◼   ► both as a MacBook Pro buyer

01:12:54 ◼   ► and as somebody who's choosing between like a Max Studio

01:12:58 ◼   ► or a Mac Mini.

01:12:59 ◼   ► - The laptops that you had, the screen.

01:13:04 ◼   ► - The screen, oh my God.

01:13:05 ◼   ► - Was actually, took up quite a bit of the review.

01:13:09 ◼   ► And while I feel like we understood what,

01:13:12 ◼   ► you know, the idea of that being brighter

01:13:14 ◼   ► and there being the nano display option,

01:13:16 ◼   ► I kind of got the feeling from you

01:13:17 ◼   ► that if you were buying one of these laptops yourself,

01:13:19 ◼   ► that you would want a nano texture

01:13:21 ◼   ► and you would go with the brightness.

01:13:23 ◼   ► Like you'd be happy with that.

01:13:24 ◼   ► So you would lean maybe Mac Pro now, MacBook Pro now.

01:13:27 ◼   ► - I am an inveterate, you know, MacBook Air user.

01:13:30 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:13:31 ◼   ► - I love the little laptops, I always have,

01:13:34 ◼   ► but you know, when I'm writing a review,

01:13:36 ◼   ► I really want to put myself in a neutral position

01:13:38 ◼   ► and understand who the product is for.

01:13:39 ◼   ► And I accept that my gravitation toward the MacBook Air

01:13:43 ◼   ► is in part a very much like,

01:13:47 ◼   ► it's a idiosyncrasy of me.

01:13:50 ◼   ► And I don't want to write, you know,

01:13:53 ◼   ► that's one of the challenges of being a reviewer

01:13:54 ◼   ► is your review is less useful.

01:13:58 ◼   ► Your review needs to be something opinionated,

01:14:00 ◼   ► but it's less useful if you say,

01:14:02 ◼   ► well, I wouldn't want one, so forget it, right?

01:14:04 ◼   ► 'Cause that's not what I'm trying to do here.

01:14:05 ◼   ► I'm trying to understand who it's for

01:14:07 ◼   ► and how it serves those people.

01:14:08 ◼   ► So I might not buy a MacBook Pro, right?

01:14:12 ◼   ► I like the Air, I like how small it is,

01:14:14 ◼   ► I like how thin it is, all of those things.

01:14:16 ◼   ► But boy, first off, the MacBook Pro display,

01:14:21 ◼   ► I don't get to use it every day.

01:14:22 ◼   ► So I have not lost my awe of it,

01:14:26 ◼   ► that MacBook Pro users,

01:14:28 ◼   ► like I have to send my review and it's back, right?

01:14:30 ◼   ► - ProMotion. - And I have a MacBook Air.

01:14:32 ◼   ► MacBook Pro users lose the awe of that display.

01:14:35 ◼   ► It is beautiful, it is big,

01:14:38 ◼   ► it is ProMotion, which is gorgeous.

01:14:41 ◼   ► It is such a good display.

01:14:44 ◼   ► And now it's brighter because even though

01:14:46 ◼   ► they've not changed the max HDR brightness,

01:14:49 ◼   ► they've changed the max SDR brightness,

01:14:51 ◼   ► which is the mode that all of us use most of the time,

01:14:55 ◼   ► to a thousand nits.

01:14:56 ◼   ► This is the second, I think, consecutive generation

01:15:00 ◼   ► that has increased that.

01:15:01 ◼   ► So it's actually, 'cause it was 600,

01:15:03 ◼   ► and then before that, I think it was like 375 or 400.

01:15:07 ◼   ► So like over a couple of generations,

01:15:08 ◼   ► if you're using like an M1 MacBook Pro,

01:15:10 ◼   ► this screen is so much brighter

01:15:12 ◼   ► if you crank it up all the way,

01:15:14 ◼   ► which why would you do that?

01:15:16 ◼   ► The answer is 'cause you're outside.

01:15:18 ◼   ► And I write outside, I use my MacBook Pro outside

01:15:22 ◼   ► all the time, or my MacBook Air outside all the time

01:15:24 ◼   ► and my iPad Pro all the time.

01:15:26 ◼   ► So that, and then the nano texture, right?

01:15:29 ◼   ► Where you're in situations where there's glare.

01:15:33 ◼   ► And yeah, if you're with a laptop, right,

01:15:35 ◼   ► you could like change your angle

01:15:38 ◼   ► and try to get rid of the glare.

01:15:39 ◼   ► But in some circumstances, especially if you're outside,

01:15:42 ◼   ► you can't, or even if you're at a meeting

01:15:44 ◼   ► and there's a window behind you, you can't.

01:15:46 ◼   ► So if you combine the nano texture

01:15:48 ◼   ► with the extra brightness, you've got a computer

01:15:51 ◼   ► that can be used way, way better

01:15:54 ◼   ► in really bad lighting situations,

01:15:56 ◼   ► including maybe especially outside.

01:15:59 ◼   ► And the nano texture is good.

01:16:02 ◼   ► It is noticeable.

01:16:04 ◼   ► If you're in a normal lighting environment,

01:16:07 ◼   ► you will notice that everything is a little diffuse

01:16:10 ◼   ► in a way that, you know what I mean?

01:16:12 ◼   ► Like the contrast goes down a little bit, right?

01:16:14 ◼   ► Like the blacks aren't quite as black

01:16:16 ◼   ► 'cause they're kind of gray

01:16:17 ◼   ► 'cause the light is scattering off of them.

01:16:18 ◼   ► And that's just, that's how it is.

01:16:19 ◼   ► But it looks pretty good.

01:16:22 ◼   ► And your benefit is, it really is,

01:16:26 ◼   ► it does your brain on.

01:16:28 ◼   ► I mean, if you've seen nano texture displays before,

01:16:30 ◼   ► you get that moment where you see the edge around it

01:16:32 ◼   ► that is not nano textured and it's all shiny.

01:16:35 ◼   ► And then as you move, the light source

01:16:37 ◼   ► moves into the nano texture and it just vanishes.

01:16:39 ◼   ► It's like, it's not there anymore.

01:16:41 ◼   ► It's extremely strange and amazing.

01:16:45 ◼   ► So yeah, it's a huge display upgrade

01:16:47 ◼   ► to probably the best Mac display ever made already.

01:16:51 ◼   ► So, you know, let's not sleep on that display.

01:16:54 ◼   ► It's gorgeous.

01:16:55 ◼   ► - When the studio display came out

01:17:00 ◼   ► and it had the center stage camera in it,

01:17:02 ◼   ► you got into a little bit of a controversy,

01:17:06 ◼   ► not like, you know, you were involved

01:17:07 ◼   ► in a lot of reporting around the quality

01:17:09 ◼   ► of the center stage camera.

01:17:11 ◼   ► And it became like a big thing.

01:17:12 ◼   ► The center stage camera,

01:17:16 ◼   ► which is also still a 12 megapixel camera

01:17:18 ◼   ► that is on the iMac and on these laptops,

01:17:21 ◼   ► looks significantly better in the images that you posted.

01:17:25 ◼   ► - It is much better.

01:17:26 ◼   ► Original center stage camera, like in the studio display,

01:17:31 ◼   ► looks, I think part of the consternation about it was,

01:17:36 ◼   ► it looks good.

01:17:39 ◼   ► It looks fine in good light.

01:17:41 ◼   ► But once the lighting conditions get weird,

01:17:43 ◼   ► it starts to look real bad.

01:17:45 ◼   ► - Yep.

01:17:46 ◼   ► - So there's a new sensor.

01:17:48 ◼   ► It's a 12 megapixel ultra wide, right?

01:17:51 ◼   ► Which previously wasn't in either of these products.

01:17:54 ◼   ► They just had a 1080 camera.

01:17:56 ◼   ► - Yes.

01:17:57 ◼   ► - But they've used, in other products,

01:17:58 ◼   ► they've used this 12 megapixel ultra wide.

01:18:00 ◼   ► That was what the center stage camera was.

01:18:02 ◼   ► It's a new sensor, Apple tells me.

01:18:05 ◼   ► And the housing is a little bit different in the iMac

01:18:07 ◼   ► than in the MacBook Pro because of the size, right?

01:18:09 ◼   ► The MacBook Pro is not as thick as the iMac.

01:18:13 ◼   ► So they have to figure that out, the display portion.

01:18:16 ◼   ► But I will tell you,

01:18:18 ◼   ► I was sitting in a badly lit room, the back bedroom here,

01:18:23 ◼   ► like really badly lit, no lights on, afternoon,

01:18:29 ◼   ► a little bit of hazy sunshine coming in through the blinds,

01:18:32 ◼   ► but that was about it.

01:18:34 ◼   ► And I opened Photo Booth on the iMac.

01:18:38 ◼   ► And I'm telling you,

01:18:41 ◼   ► it didn't take more than a fraction of a second

01:18:44 ◼   ► for me to go, "Oh, this is better."

01:18:48 ◼   ► And their reviewers guide says it's new,

01:18:52 ◼   ► but it's new to the product.

01:18:54 ◼   ► It doesn't say it's new to Apple's product line.

01:18:57 ◼   ► So it was unclear.

01:18:58 ◼   ► And I had to actually go to an Apple PR person and say,

01:19:01 ◼   ► "Is this new, new, not the same as in the studio display?"

01:19:04 ◼   ► And I was told yes.

01:19:05 ◼   ► So, okay, great.

01:19:06 ◼   ► But it was obvious.

01:19:08 ◼   ► It's harder to see it in stills.

01:19:11 ◼   ► I had to crop a still for use in my review of the iMac.

01:19:17 ◼   ► But my, and I put them all at the same level

01:19:21 ◼   ► as my studio display that I have back there.

01:19:22 ◼   ► So I had the studio display and then I had the iMac

01:19:24 ◼   ► and then I had the MacBook Pro.

01:19:25 ◼   ► And I think the iMac is a little bit better

01:19:27 ◼   ► than the MacBook Pro.

01:19:29 ◼   ► I don't know why, my guess is that the optics

01:19:31 ◼   ► are a little compromised,

01:19:32 ◼   ► but it's still better than the center stage camera was.

01:19:35 ◼   ► And I like center stage as a feature, right?

01:19:37 ◼   ► Because you wanna be able to choose your angle, right?

01:19:42 ◼   ► It's nice to be able to,

01:19:46 ◼   ► even if you don't use the auto zoom in modern,

01:19:48 ◼   ► you know, current Mac OS in 15 and 14,

01:19:51 ◼   ► you can also select the camera and just choose center.

01:19:54 ◼   ► And it centers it on you.

01:19:55 ◼   ► And that's nice.

01:19:56 ◼   ► And a regular webcam won't do that.

01:19:58 ◼   ► But if you look at the sample,

01:20:00 ◼   ► the studio display webcam in the bad light,

01:20:03 ◼   ► my face is all blotchy.

01:20:04 ◼   ► It's blotchy because it just can't,

01:20:06 ◼   ► it can soften it, it can process it, but it's blotchy.

01:20:10 ◼   ► And the iMac and MacBook Pro camera,

01:20:12 ◼   ► like you can see the specific shadows,

01:20:15 ◼   ► you can see little lines around my eyes,

01:20:18 ◼   ► you can see blemishes on my face.

01:20:20 ◼   ► I mean, it's not like the most flattering picture,

01:20:22 ◼   ► but it's in bad light and it is just clearer in every way.

01:20:27 ◼   ► So Apple, this is totally Apple realizing

01:20:30 ◼   ► that they kind of biffed it with center stage camera

01:20:33 ◼   ► and putting a better sensor in there.

01:20:35 ◼   ► And I'm a fan of center stage as a feature.

01:20:37 ◼   ► Like I said, I think there are a lot of things

01:20:40 ◼   ► that benefit from it.

01:20:41 ◼   ► And the iMac is the most important place

01:20:44 ◼   ► to have something like center stage.

01:20:45 ◼   ► And it was so frustrating when the M1 iMac came out

01:20:47 ◼   ► and they'd already introduced the iPad with center stage.

01:20:49 ◼   ► And then the M1 iMac came out and they're like,

01:20:51 ◼   ► "No, it doesn't have that feature."

01:20:53 ◼   ► What are you doing?

01:20:54 ◼   ► Why did that happen?

01:20:55 ◼   ► But it's finally here, looks great on the iMac,

01:20:57 ◼   ► it looks good on the MacBook Pro.

01:21:00 ◼   ► And I think it's a good feature.

01:21:01 ◼   ► Again, I wish that the center stage algorithm

01:21:03 ◼   ► was a little bit smarter.

01:21:05 ◼   ► It still feels sometimes like it gets confused

01:21:07 ◼   ► about what it's looking at.

01:21:09 ◼   ► But the beauty is that in 14 and 15 of macOS,

01:21:13 ◼   ► you can just click on the little camera icon in the menu bar

01:21:16 ◼   ► and turn off center stage,

01:21:17 ◼   ► and then just like drag the angle around

01:21:19 ◼   ► and zoom in and out, or just click recenter,

01:21:22 ◼   ► and it'll give you exactly the shot you want,

01:21:25 ◼   ► which is really nice,

01:21:26 ◼   ► because you don't have to tilt your laptop display

01:21:29 ◼   ► to a weird angle or tilt your iMac or turn it.

01:21:33 ◼   ► You can just change the view and that's very convenient.

01:21:37 ◼   ► - Why you didn't have the Mac Mini.

01:21:41 ◼   ► Obviously you are aware of Dan's review,

01:21:44 ◼   ► the same way that I am.

01:21:45 ◼   ► So I just wanted to point out a few things

01:21:46 ◼   ► that I thought were interesting.

01:21:49 ◼   ► One of the things I found funny is like Dan was referencing

01:21:51 ◼   ► the reduced weight of the Mac Mini,

01:21:54 ◼   ► which makes it really easy to get to the power button

01:21:56 ◼   ► because you know.

01:21:57 ◼   ► - You just lift it up.

01:21:59 ◼   ► Actually my favorite bit of trivia,

01:22:01 ◼   ► and I had to check is it's the lightest Mac ever.

01:22:05 ◼   ► - What?

01:22:06 ◼   ► No.