00:00:00 ◼ ► recording this, this is the day after election day. We just got Trump for a second term.
00:00:06 ◼ ► None of us are happy. We're going to save our, you know, sadness and wallowing and feelings
00:00:13 ◼ ► about that for the after show. So we're gonna do a regular show. You know, you can go back
00:00:32 ◼ ► you know, the show must go on. We're gonna try to have this be, again, our regular computer
00:00:37 ◼ ► tech show because in challenging times people need normalcy from wherever they can get it.
00:00:51 ◼ ► With that in mind, let's talk about something that I think we can all agree is pretty awesome
00:00:53 ◼ ► and that is the ATP holiday store. You can go to ATP.fm/store and you can see all sorts
00:01:01 ◼ ► of absolutely awesome merchandise. We've got M4 shirts, we've got M4 Pro shirts, M4 Max
00:01:16 ◼ ► Well, you can have monochrome colors as long as it's singular colors each. Like that is
00:01:27 ◼ ► on. We've got tanks, we've got tees, we've got long sleeve, we've got pullover hoodies,
00:01:32 ◼ ► all sorts of different stuff. We have brought back the ATP pixel shirt, which I've had at
00:01:37 ◼ ► least a couple of people say to me or reach out to me and say, you know, I didn't go for
00:01:42 ◼ ► the pixel shirt and then I saw one or I saw another picture of it or something like that
00:01:47 ◼ ► and I messed up. I should have gotten a pixel shirt. So you can, this is your opportunity
00:02:03 ◼ ► see the shirts for the first time. And yeah, when the Pixel 1 showed up, I was like, oh,
00:02:11 ◼ ► We did test prints of the Pixel 1s though, by the way. We did test prints of the original
00:02:18 ◼ ► on sweatshirts and we didn't know if it would work on that. So I saw a picture of a sweatshirt
00:02:30 ◼ ► Yeah, because the Pixel 1 in particular, that takes a lot of, I think, precision and skill
00:02:39 ◼ ► of very small differently colored blocks and have them all line up correctly and have the
00:02:56 ◼ ► The other degree of difficulty on that one is that so, you know, as people know who hear
00:02:59 ◼ ► us complain about this all the time, the more colors you put on a shirt, the more it costs
00:03:03 ◼ ► due to the way screen printing works. So obviously you've got a rainbow stripe colors on the
00:03:07 ◼ ► ATP logo, but the Pixel shirt, all the stripes and all the letters also have shadows, which
00:03:13 ◼ ► is a darker version of the same color. It's brutal. But anyway, Pixels. Yeah. And by the
00:03:26 ◼ ► are you going to sell the insert shirt? We're not currently selling again. And I don't have
00:03:40 ◼ ► is if you see something you like buy it or maybe buy two because who knows when it will
00:03:45 ◼ ► ever come back. Some things we've only sold literally once. Some things we will probably
00:03:48 ◼ ► never sell again since such narrow interests. Some things come back once every three years.
00:03:53 ◼ ► So yeah, don't, uh, don't just assume, ah, I'm not going to get it to sale, get an Excel.
00:04:02 ◼ ► shirt with our plain ATP logo on it, but everything else is a rotating collection. So if you want
00:04:15 ◼ ► interested in, what's going to sell. And generally speaking, the kind of more esoteric stuff,
00:04:21 ◼ ► for example, the ATP polo, which is available right now, I love it. Not everyone else does.
00:04:25 ◼ ► And so that will do every like second, third or fourth sale. So like John said, it's not
00:04:33 ◼ ► promises either. Um, but you should definitely grab at least one, if not a couple, if there's
00:04:45 ◼ ► the mugs that have come back in white and like a deep, deep, deep blueish purpley. What's
00:04:50 ◼ ► the official name for this? John? Thank you. Uh, we've also got the ATP hat. Uh, all sorts
00:04:55 ◼ ► of stuff is available. All of it is available until I believe it's Sunday, November 17th.
00:05:01 ◼ ► Yes. Sunday, the 17th at a basically end of the day, New York time and literally end of
00:05:11 ◼ ► that's just for you, John. But, um, anyways, so you can order until the 17th of November.
00:05:27 ◼ ► Yeah. So if you are a member, you have 15% off discount code, uh, that is on your member
00:05:32 ◼ ► page, go to ATP dot FM and log in and go to your member page. You'll see the code there
00:05:36 ◼ ► and you can copy and paste it into the little promo code field during checkout. Or if you
00:05:45 ◼ ► any of the products, we will auto fill your discount code for you just so you don't forget
00:05:52 ◼ ► uh, totally worthwhile to use that if you are not a member and want to become one, just
00:06:01 ◼ ► that you save. Go to ATP dot FM slash join. You can join for one month and get the discount
00:06:15 ◼ ► you, if you're a member, you'll see a link that lets you send that link to somebody else
00:06:19 ◼ ► and say, Hey, buy me ATP membership for my holiday gift or for my birthday or for whatever.
00:06:43 ◼ ► you can also just redeem them immediately. They just add time to your subscription there.
00:06:47 ◼ ► I think there is like a sane limit where you'll, it'll always just keep adding time, but due
00:06:53 ◼ ► to a limitation in Stripe, if you add like four years of membership or maybe it's longer
00:06:57 ◼ ► than maybe it's like seven years of membership, we can't, we won't continue your membership
00:07:07 ◼ ► handling recurring subscriptions. Anyway, you will always just add time. The only difference
00:07:11 ◼ ► is at the end of seven years, we won't continue your subscription. You don't have to do that
00:07:19 ◼ ► is, we will just add, we will just continue your subscription. You're paying subscription
00:07:41 ◼ ► our visualization exercise that I know all of you love so very much. If you're driving,
00:07:50 ◼ ► can get to the side of the sidewalk or whatever the case may be. Maybe you're biking, you
00:07:53 ◼ ► know, use the little arm signals if you need to, but one way or another pause and go to
00:08:06 ◼ ► will you have some free time later? Visualize that spot. Maybe it's your desk at work. Maybe
00:08:10 ◼ ► it's your desk at home. Maybe it's somewhere else entirely. Maybe you're going to Wegmans
00:08:13 ◼ ► to do work like I do most Wednesday mornings in order to prep for the show. Wherever you
00:08:18 ◼ ► may be heading, think about what it'll be like to go to ATP.fm/store and buy some stuff
00:08:25 ◼ ► when you get there. You can also set a reminder with your voice assistant of choice. You know,
00:08:28 ◼ ► one thing I have learned now that I have CarPlay, which is amazing, is that... Oh wait, are
00:08:49 ◼ ► have to" has gotten smaller. But anyway, one thing I discovered is that when your phone
00:08:57 ◼ ► is connected to CarPlay, you can usually just say into the air in your car, "Hey, thing.
00:09:02 ◼ ► Remind me in two hours to go buy ATP merchandise." And it will almost always pick it up without
00:09:08 ◼ ► any waiting. You don't have to say, "Hey, thing," and then wait for the car to be like,
00:09:12 ◼ ► "Waiting, waiting, bloop. What do you want to say?" You can just say in one phrase, "Hey,
00:09:40 ◼ ► in my pocket and wrist, you know, at a certain time, like, "Oh my God, how did I ever get
00:09:44 ◼ ► anything done?" I mean, the answer is I didn't. But how did I remember anything? I didn't.
00:09:49 ◼ ► How did I get through life? I got in trouble a lot. Like, but now we now we are in a better
00:09:55 ◼ ► place where we can be reminded of things with very little effort by sitting around or pretty
00:10:01 ◼ ► much wherever we are. So it's wonderful. So you can use that ability to say, "Hey, thing,
00:10:08 ◼ ► All right, let's do some follow up. We have some information with regards to the Mac Mini
00:10:13 ◼ ► as is expected and other Macs as well. Let's start with headphone jacks. Where is the headphone
00:10:19 ◼ ► We didn't talk about it last time, but it's in the front, which is interesting. So here's
00:10:36 ◼ ► for the front, you can make an argument for the back, you can probably make an argument
00:10:39 ◼ ► for the side. I bet somebody can make an argument for the top because that thing is so little
00:10:42 ◼ ► you can put it in so many different places. It's, you know, people who want a clean setup,
00:10:48 ◼ ► but they don't want to see that wire. They'd rather have the wire going from the back and
00:10:51 ◼ ► underneath the desk and I don't know, snaking up through some other thing. People want it
00:10:54 ◼ ► on the front because they're constantly plugging and unplugging it. People want it on the top
00:11:01 ◼ ► to the top. If it's underneath your desk all this changes. So they had to pick somewhere
00:11:10 ◼ ► and top are so much more defensible on a giant tower computer because it's just so hard to
00:11:14 ◼ ► reach around the back of a giant tower computer, especially, you know, like, but the Mini is
00:11:22 ◼ ► in choosing the placement, but anyway, they chose the front and I don't think you'll see
00:11:27 ◼ ► a lot of pictures in Apple's PR photography showing a wire connected to the Mac Mini anywhere
00:11:37 ◼ ► Yeah, I think we're lucky that they still have one at all. So, you know, let's not look
00:11:43 ◼ ► at Get Horse in the Mouth too much, but also I think, yeah, if you're going to have a headphone
00:11:47 ◼ ► jack on a desktop computer, the best places for it are either the front or the side. And
00:12:09 ◼ ► So you don't see the wire, it may say like, I never unplug it, I just want something plugged
00:12:18 ◼ ► piece of audio equipment than just headphones. It's like, I don't want to see that wire.
00:12:21 ◼ ► Like imagine if, I don't know, you explained to me they have like headphone amps or something.
00:12:24 ◼ ► I don't even know what kind of things you can connect to that jack. But if it's something
00:12:28 ◼ ► permanently connected and it's not your headphones, like it connects to some other box that connects
00:12:37 ◼ ► want that connected to the front because now you've got to like immediately turn the wire
00:12:40 ◼ ► around and have it go backwards. Like it's just so dependent on what your setup is, what
00:12:56 ◼ ► But it's difficult to choose where to put the ports. And I just think it was interesting
00:12:59 ◼ ► for Apple for so long, really not be pretty against ports on the front of their computers.
00:13:06 ◼ ► Now even the tiny Mac mini is not just the headphone port, but other ports in the front
00:13:25 ◼ ► like the nightmare scenario, having a permanently plugged in cord into the front of your Mac
00:13:28 ◼ ► mini and you hate that it has to sneak around to the back. Let me advise you on something.
00:13:48 ◼ ► that was exactly the right lane so it wouldn't have too much excess and it made a much cleaner
00:13:51 ◼ ► setup. But also, yes, if you really are going to be doing something permanent that, you
00:13:57 ◼ ► know, you always want something at the back and you want a really clean front, odds are
00:14:02 ◼ ► somewhere in this setup you're going to have a place to put a USB audio device and that,
00:14:07 ◼ ► you know, whether you call it a DAC or a speaker amp, these are all the, or a headphone amp
00:14:10 ◼ ► rather, these are all the same things. It's just, you know, a USB audio device that has
00:14:14 ◼ ► a headphone output of some kind and you can, you know, bury that wherever you want to bury
00:14:21 ◼ ► just looking up the weight of the Mac mini is only 1.5 or 1.6 pounds depending on configuration.
00:14:36 ◼ ► going to be a little bit dense but it is possible if you had a headphone jack on the back and
00:14:53 ◼ ► desk. So, that's another consideration like they've made this so small and it's getting
00:14:58 ◼ ► lighter over time so you don't want it like being scooted around the desk needlessly either.
00:15:06 ◼ ► Well, that's the Apple TV problem and I bet it's true of the Mac mini too. If you connect
00:15:10 ◼ ► cables to all the things in the back, power, a bunch of USB, Ethernet, those cables, the
00:15:16 ◼ ► force on those cables, the stiffness of those cables already may be like tilting your entire
00:15:21 ◼ ► Mac mini like on an angle off of the surface or like pulling it to the side. You try to
00:15:26 ◼ ► align it so it's like parallel to the side of your desk and you let go and it just slides
00:15:30 ◼ ► another two degrees because the cables are too stiff. It's so small compared to the strength
00:15:35 ◼ ► of the Apple TV. I have the same problem with Apple TV pucks. Sometimes you can find a place
00:15:38 ◼ ► in your entertainment center where it's just fine but sometimes it just wants to move because,
00:15:47 ◼ ► I don't know, maybe you can just, every Mac mini should come with like a custom made exactly
00:15:53 ◼ ► the same proportions as the top of the case like tungsten slab that you can just put on
00:15:57 ◼ ► top. Probably not good for cooling though. No. Alright, and then Quinn Nelson was perhaps
00:16:07 ◼ ► many times. Quinn writes, "You can buy another base model Mac mini," so this is 16 gigs of
00:16:35 ◼ ► Mac mini for about the same price as it costs to upgrade the original Mac mini with the
00:16:41 ◼ ► same specs." It's bananas. Yeah, well it's one dollar less. Yeah, if you double the RAM
00:16:52 ◼ ► wanted to break down, we talked about this before, and we didn't want to go into numbers,
00:16:56 ◼ ► but here let's go into numbers. How does this work out? So the base model is $599. Okay,
00:17:09 ◼ ► That's adding 16 gigabytes to the base 16 at $25 per gigabyte. And you may be wondering,
00:17:13 ◼ ► how much does that cost for real, not in Apple Fantasyland? I tried to find something comparable,
00:17:23 ◼ ► comparing it in this case to Crucial, which is a name brand 32 gig LPDDR5X 7500 memory,
00:17:31 ◼ ► right? But this Crucial thing, it's an entire printed circuit board with associated like
00:17:42 ◼ ► you upgrade the RAM on the Mac mini, it's just two different RAM chips that are soldered
00:17:59 ◼ ► right? So anyway, this Crucial 32 gig thing is a retail product and it costs $174.99 on
00:18:08 ◼ ► the Crucial.com website, which I'm sure is not the cheapest place you can get it. Doing
00:18:12 ◼ ► the math on that, Apple's RAM upgrades are 6.5 times more expensive than buying a separate
00:18:20 ◼ ► retail packaged printed circuit board complete memory module. And this is one of those LP
00:18:25 ◼ ► low pressure compression attached memory modules for like a laptop or whatever. So this isn't
00:18:42 ◼ ► from 256 to 512. That's a $200 upgrade. And that's adding 256 gigs at 78 cents per gigabyte,
00:18:53 ◼ ► is 12 cents per gigabyte. And again, an extremely fair comparison. A Samsung 990 Pro, 1 terabyte
00:19:00 ◼ ► PCIe 4.0 SSD. The price per gigabyte is 12 cents per gigabyte, which is once again, amazingly
00:19:07 ◼ ► exactly 6.5 times more expensive for the Apple upgrade than a separately packaged retail
00:19:14 ◼ ► product that has its own printed circuit board, a whole bunch of other support chips, a heat
00:19:18 ◼ ► sink, a box, everything associated with it. And when you do an SSD upgrade on a Mac mini
00:19:24 ◼ ► or any of the other Macs, you can see people do them on YouTube. They will de-solder the
00:19:34 ◼ ► they will buy two bare NAND chips and solder them in place. There's a whole bunch of other
00:19:39 ◼ ► stuff you have to do to get the OS to recognize it, whatever. But what I'm saying is the components
00:19:43 ◼ ► that you are getting for this additional $200 are so much more minimal than the components
00:19:54 ◼ ► on it, but a bunch of other stuff from Samsung name brand 990 Pro. It's ridiculous. Six
00:20:17 ◼ ► you could somehow harvest the two NAND chips that come with the second Mac mini and somehow
00:20:25 ◼ ► harvest the SSD, so the stuff that comes with the other Mac mini and then throw away the
00:20:30 ◼ ► rest of it, it would probably be the same price. It's ridiculous. Anyway, yeah. So that
00:20:41 ◼ ► model. That's what we mean when we say Apple's upgraded prices are ridiculous. It's not like
00:20:49 ◼ ► I'm not exaggerating. That's literally what they are in the most generous possible comparison.
00:20:54 ◼ ► If we actually compared like what is the retail price of just those NAND chips? I couldn't
00:21:04 ◼ ► assured that the actual retail difference in price is probably more like seven or eight
00:21:09 ◼ ► when you get down to apples to apples. And then obviously the wholesale price that Apple
00:21:17 ◼ ► It's a lot. It's a lot. And I mean, what are you really going to do? You're not going to
00:21:20 ◼ ► buy a second Mac mini. You're going to upgrade as you need to, but it's going to hurt. It's
00:21:37 ◼ ► the SOC package. So I, like I said, I've seen people do SSD upgrades by desoldering and re-soldering,
00:21:55 ◼ ► All right. So with the iMac things seem mostly okay. However, if you're one of those people
00:22:01 ◼ ► that really loves to have two pointing devices, both a magic mouse and a magic track pad,
00:22:06 ◼ ► well tough nugs, cause Apple apparently has removed the option to buy color match track
00:22:12 ◼ ► pad and mouse together reading from nine to five Mac with the M4 model. You can, you can
00:22:17 ◼ ► no longer get both the magic track pad magic mouse in the past. You could optionally buy
00:22:21 ◼ ► both iMac accessories as part of your purchase. This means that if you want a trio of color
00:22:25 ◼ ► matched magic keyboard, magic mouse, magic track pad, you're simply out of luck or you're
00:22:28 ◼ ► going to eBay or you go into Apple store and like Marco said, give them your iMac serial
00:22:33 ◼ ► number and tell them you lost your track pad when really you didn't. And really you bought
00:22:36 ◼ ► it with a mouse. There's probably some way to do it, but this is just another consequence
00:22:39 ◼ ► of Apple being weird about the color things. And it's kind of sad that you used to be able
00:22:44 ◼ ► to do it, but now you can. There's also been a little bit of grumbling about SSD limits.
00:22:50 ◼ ► So the M4 versus M4 pro and max have different SSD size limits, and they're also different
00:23:09 ◼ ► mini is eight terabytes. What's going on with that, John? So sometimes, uh, it's the case
00:23:14 ◼ ► that Apple is just not offering certain sizes in certain products for whatever reason like
00:23:19 ◼ ► this, you know, too many combinations of products. They decide like, I forgot one of the ones
00:23:29 ◼ ► Uh, but for the storage size, we don't know this for a fact, but it is reasonable to assume
00:23:34 ◼ ► based on the M1 and M2 and M3, the M series SOCs have the SSD controllers on them essentially,
00:23:43 ◼ ► and they have limits on the number and capacity of NAND chips that they can address. And it
00:23:51 ◼ ► is reasonable to assume, assume again, based on the plain M1, M2 and M3 that the M4 actually
00:23:57 ◼ ► can't address more than two terabytes given current NAND sizes and number of chips that
00:24:06 ◼ ► buy a plain M4 Mac mini with eight terabytes. I believe it is probably the case that it
00:24:16 ◼ ► you know, there are plenty of places where Apple subdivides, uh, its product line based
00:24:21 ◼ ► on, you know, capacities that don't really make any sense. And it's just a way of minimizing
00:24:25 ◼ ► skews and finding the ones I think they're going to make the most money on. But the plain
00:24:34 ◼ ► space as the larger ones. And that is almost certainly the case with the plain M4 as well.
00:24:39 ◼ ► All right. And then tell me about performance, uh, specifically with the M4 Pro and M4 Pro
00:24:44 ◼ ► Macs. So some, unlike what we'll talk about in the after show, there is some really good
00:24:50 ◼ ► news in the world of Macs, believe it or not. We talked about it when they had, what was
00:24:55 ◼ ► it Mac week? That's what we could have called it. We could have done a pun on the publication
00:25:03 ◼ ► you know, uh, the iMac, the Mac mini and the new Mac book pros with the new M4 processors.
00:25:11 ◼ ► been sort of preliminary, unconfirmed uploaded, uh, geek bench benchmarks for the M4 Pro and
00:25:19 ◼ ► the M4 Macs and various devices. This time is always so weird because technically these
00:25:24 ◼ ► things shouldn't be in people's hands, although some plain M4s were shipped in Russia a while
00:25:28 ◼ ► ago. But anyway, uh, they're showing up in geek bench. When people get their retail products
00:25:34 ◼ ► in their hands, geek bench sort of incorporates all of the measurements and they end up on
00:25:41 ◼ ► the Mac identifiers, you can find results. We'll put links in the show notes so you can
00:25:45 ◼ ► look at the results for yourself. Again, they are preliminary with a few number of data
00:26:10 ◼ ► it is that you're doing, all you care about is how fast does it do that? But things like
00:26:14 ◼ ► geek bench try to be a representative benchmark for the various parts of the computer. So
00:26:20 ◼ ► you have some way to compare it. So here they are with all those caveats in mind. There's
00:26:24 ◼ ► some amazing stuff going on. We've talked before about the M4's single core performance
00:26:29 ◼ ► being amazing. We only really had measurements of that in the iPad Pro because that was the
00:26:40 ◼ ► same amazing single core performance as the M4, but a little better because it's probably
00:26:51 ◼ ► bench benchmark and has that compared to its processors. That is a 26% increase over the
00:27:02 ◼ ► change. Pro, Max, whatever, like maybe they'll be clock tire or maybe they have better cooling
00:27:10 ◼ ► the Intel days too, by the way. Very often if you wanted to get the fastest single core
00:27:13 ◼ ► performance you would get like an iMac or something with a smaller number of cores because
00:27:17 ◼ ► the big 24 core or 12 core or whatever it was back in the day. The big multi core thing
00:27:22 ◼ ► that was in the Mac Pro had lower single core performance because they couldn't clock those
00:27:38 ◼ ► X Studio and the Mac Pro, the M4 Pro single core performance is 41% faster. Multi core,
00:27:46 ◼ ► now we start to get interesting. Multi core, remember the M4 Pro is 14 cores, it has 10
00:27:56 ◼ ► its predecessor, the M3 Pro. The M3 Pro made some very different choices. It was the 6.6
00:28:03 ◼ ► arrangement, 6 efficiency cores, 6 power cores. So it's bound to not do as well in multi core.
00:28:09 ◼ ► The M3 Pro is just aiming for like, I guess, better low power performance for lots of non
00:28:40 ◼ ► M4 Pro here. This is not the best M4 chip. This is like the middle one. There's M4, then
00:28:45 ◼ ► there's M4 Pro. Its multi core performance is better than the M2 Ultra. That's bad. That's
00:28:52 ◼ ► real bad. That's great. This is a great problem to have. This is what happens when you don't
00:29:05 ◼ ► in our shirt sales. No one wants to buy an M4 Pro shirt. You should. The M4 Pro is crushing
00:29:09 ◼ ► it this generation. It is most improved. And granted, part of that is because the M3 Pro
00:29:15 ◼ ► was so weird and different in how it arranged itself, which is why you get that big jump.
00:29:19 ◼ ► But just forget about the M3 Pro and the 48% jump from the M3 Pro. It's better than the
00:29:24 ◼ ► M3 Max. It's better than the M2 Ultra in multi core. It crushes them all in single core too
00:29:28 ◼ ► by the way, but it's still better in multi core. So what the hell is the M2 Ultra actually
00:29:39 ◼ ► so it's 70% faster than the M3 Pro. Because the M3 Pro actually went down in memory bandwidth
00:29:43 ◼ ► from the M2 Pro I believe. But it is 50% slower in memory bandwidth than the M3 Max. So that's
00:29:54 ◼ ► M2 Ultra. So if memory bandwidth is your concern, the M2 Ultra is still twice as big. And by
00:29:59 ◼ ► the way, the memory bandwidth is 273 gigabytes per second and the M2 Ultra is 819. The metal
00:30:06 ◼ ► score, that's like the GPU benchmark, mostly the GPU benchmark that you care about. I didn't
00:30:27 ◼ ► want an M2 Ultra at this point? Well, really you shouldn't. But if you have one, take heart
00:30:32 ◼ ► to know that you have double the memory bandwidth and you are twice as fast as the M4 Pro in
00:30:46 ◼ ► it's, it's bad when the mid tier M4 is kicking your butt in a lot of ways. All right. So
00:30:52 ◼ ► anyway, we go to the M4 Max. The M4 Max is the first personal computer chip in Geekbench
00:30:57 ◼ ► to break 4,000 on single core. I believe the M4 was already like the top single core performer,
00:31:02 ◼ ► but the M4 Max has a bunch of ratings in there like 3900, 4000. So single core is even better
00:31:08 ◼ ► than the M4 Max. Why is it better? Is it just because it's clock tire? Is it just because
00:31:14 ◼ ► ice pack again, unconfirmed preliminary reports, but just no single core and the M4 is like
00:31:24 ◼ ► And iPads. You can go, you can go search Geekbench for like, what if I want to, you know, buy
00:31:36 ◼ ► answer is no, it's not. It's just, you can, you can search the results. Again, it's just
00:31:40 ◼ ► a benchmark, but single core is amazing. So, you know, the M4 Max is 29% faster than the
00:31:56 ◼ ► the M2 Ultra. And then memory bandwidth, it's 546 gigs a second, 33% faster than the M3
00:32:13 ◼ ► Max is, you know, just a steady upward climb, but because the M3 Pro took that diversion
00:32:18 ◼ ► into not quite being as fast, it's got this huge boost. Yeah. So if you've got an M2 Ultra
00:32:24 ◼ ► and you bought it back when it was new, there are still some things that it does better,
00:32:28 ◼ ► but it has been handily surpassed by the mid tier laptop chip and single and multi-core
00:32:33 ◼ ► performance. That is just, I really hope this whole thing with the Pro series is just an
00:32:40 ◼ ► anomaly and they don't plan on doing this because you can't release a bunch of Pro products,
00:32:47 ◼ ► to get embarrassing things like this. I mean, if they just keep up with this pace, the phone
00:32:51 ◼ ► chips will be faster in every measure as well, but it's a great time to buy a Mac and it's
00:32:56 ◼ ► not a great time to want to buy one of the desktop Pro Max because they have fallen behind.
00:33:08 ◼ ► and the main rumor that we talked about before is about the, the reason I mention this now
00:33:13 ◼ ► is because I hope we'll find this out by next episode. Someone needs to get an M4 Max and
00:33:18 ◼ ► cut the thing open and show us what the die looks like. Because remember on the M3 Max,
00:33:32 ◼ ► because Apple never did make an M3 Ultra and maybe it's because they never planned to and
00:33:45 ◼ ► is there that little strip in the bottom that looks like the Silicon interposer where they
00:33:53 ◼ ► that means is either Apple's never going to make another chip better than the Max or when
00:33:58 ◼ ► the M4 Ultra or whatever comes out, it won't be two Maxes stuck together. But as the rumor
00:34:03 ◼ ► suggests it might be an entirely new chip that is just simply even bigger than the Max,
00:34:13 ◼ ► the past putting two Maxes together, you end up with a lot of wasted stuff that you don't
00:34:16 ◼ ► need doubles of, right? You don't need doubles of all like the media encoders and all the
00:34:24 ◼ ► expensive, much more expensive potentially, but more efficient in terms of bang for your
00:34:34 ◼ ► for your buckets probably worse because the bigger you make the chip, the more expensive
00:34:37 ◼ ► it is to get one out that works. So I'm looking forward to that as soon as someone cuts one
00:34:41 ◼ ► of these open, we'll know if we're in for a surprise, but if someone sees an interposer
00:34:46 ◼ ► and it's just two M4 Maxes stuck together, which to be clear would be great, but boring.
00:34:50 ◼ ► All right. And then a handful of people wrote in to correct us when we said, oh, you can't
00:35:00 ◼ ► M1 Mac with eight gigs of Ram for $700. Although as we record this, it's actually on sale for
00:35:05 ◼ ► 650. But yeah, that still exists. That's still a thing in their lineup. Yeah, I give that
00:35:11 ◼ ► a pass. I mean, like it's amazing that they went back and updated the M2 Air in addition
00:35:15 ◼ ► to the M3 Air to be 16. They could have updated neither of them and just waited for the M4
00:35:20 ◼ ► Air in the spring to go to 16, but it said they went back two whole product lines. They
00:35:24 ◼ ► just didn't go back to the M1 upgraded, which is fine, right? No problem with that whatsoever.
00:35:30 ◼ ► The new USB-C accessories, including those color matched ones that we were talking about
00:35:54 ◼ ► running macOS Sonoma and Ventura who are having issues with the new devices. With the keyboard,
00:36:02 ◼ ► function. In some cases, the accessories are recognized as older devices inhibiting proper
00:36:07 ◼ ► functionality. And this isn't a problem limited to just people running older versions of macOS
00:36:11 ◼ ► because there are also reports from developers who have installed the first macOS Sequoia
00:36:40 ◼ ► that gets enabled by having 15.1. It's like the basic functionality of the input device.
00:36:46 ◼ ► So like if you buy a Magic Mouse and you come home and you're connected to your computer
00:36:49 ◼ ► that's running, let's say Sequoia 15.0 and the scrolling doesn't work, you take it back
00:36:54 ◼ ► to the store and say this mouse is broken. They say, oh, you should have known when you
00:36:57 ◼ ► bought that mouse. It requires 15.1. You need to update your OS. That is super weird to
00:37:02 ◼ ► me. Is it because of the USB control? Backport this, Apple. Provide an update at least to
00:37:19 ◼ ► team not talk to the other? Surely these have been in the works for at least months. Why
00:37:29 ◼ ► Why don't they just work out of the box? It's literally the same keyboard but with a USB-C
00:37:35 ◼ ► thing. I'm sure there are third party USB-C keyboards that you can buy and just plug into
00:37:40 ◼ ► a Mac and they just work. Like through some generic keyboard driver. But the Apple branded
00:37:44 ◼ ► one, that's why I couldn't believe this story and I thought it had to be a mistake or whatever.
00:37:52 ◼ ► other issue or whatever. But this seems ridiculous to me. So be aware, as of the time this story
00:37:59 ◼ ► was written, which is granted, October 31st, people were buying the new keyboards and mice
00:38:14 ◼ ► Daniel Luz writes that the Apple $69 one meter Thunderbolt 5 cable is a passive cable. One
00:38:26 ◼ ► the USB standards group. Thank you. The one meter is the USB IF's limit for passive cables
00:38:32 ◼ ► as is expected. Every compliant passive Thunderbolt 4 or USB 4 cable is compatible with Thunderbolt
00:38:41 ◼ ► appears to be a Gen 3 that works. If you have an old USB 4 cable, you might already have
00:38:46 ◼ ► a Thunderbolt 5 cable as long as it's passive and at most one meter long. So perhaps the
00:38:50 ◼ ► only difference between this new Thunderbolt 5 cable and the one that ships with the studio
00:38:59 ◼ ► tiny light gray five in a square laser etched on the metal part of the USB C connector as
00:39:07 ◼ ► a further eye test of old people. But yeah, last time we said these cables are expensive
00:39:11 ◼ ► because they have little chips on them, but apparently under one meter, no chips. Apple
00:39:15 ◼ ► itself says this is a passive cable. So it was just a very well constructed, well insulated
00:39:36 ◼ ► have 10 gig ethernet. I knew that my beloved CalDigit TS4 has two and a half gig. But Daniel
00:39:47 ◼ ► down the iPad mini A17 Pro to see if there's any physical or hardware reasons for jelly
00:39:54 ◼ ► scrolling improvements. And after watching this like six or seven minute YouTube video,
00:39:59 ◼ ► I can tell you that no, there doesn't appear to be any hardware changes, but they do put
00:40:21 ◼ ► in super slow mo, you'll see it is just much improved, but it still exists. And a lot of
00:40:26 ◼ ► the theories people have with the old ones is like, oh, they need to take the video controller
00:40:29 ◼ ► and attach it to the screen from the top instead of the side, because when they do it from
00:40:33 ◼ ► the side, it ends up driving the display in a way such that one half of it doesn't update
00:40:41 ◼ ► this thing up and said, what do they do to fix the jelly scrolling? Did they do all those
00:40:51 ◼ ► So maybe it was just a hundred percent a software fix or there's something about the fix that
00:40:56 ◼ ► isn't detectable by iFixit, something inside the chips that they can't see or something.
00:41:00 ◼ ► But yeah, what a, what a weird situation like these, this complaint about the iPads was
00:41:18 ◼ ► So the next question, how do you keep your company's data safe when it's sitting on all
00:41:35 ◼ ► those unmanaged apps and devices? One password has an answer to this question. Extended access
00:41:41 ◼ ► management. One password extended access management helps you secure every sign in for every app
00:41:46 ◼ ► on every device because it solves the problem that traditional IAM and MDM can't touch.
00:41:52 ◼ ► Check it out at one password.com/ATP. That's one password.com/ATP. Thank you so much to
00:42:07 ◼ ► Killvor writes in regarding the quote unquote fork in the road for Apple TV, uh, I whether
00:42:17 ◼ ► video so it can play games better. The latest Apple TV is actually worse for games, even
00:42:21 ◼ ► if the chip is better on paper since in practice at thermal throttles a lot earlier. This is
00:42:25 ◼ ► according to an old colleague who was working on an Apple arcade title, absolute monkeys
00:42:33 ◼ ► Apple TV, uh, had a fan that I couldn't hear. And when they got rid of the fan, it's like,
00:42:46 ◼ ► constructed much more cheaply than the much more expensive ones that had the little tiny
00:42:50 ◼ ► silent fan inside it. Uh, yeah, maybe those were the good ones. So yeah, I guess that's
00:42:54 ◼ ► another fork in the road for them. If they want to pursue gaming performance, they probably
00:43:05 ◼ ► platform years ago, they tried to make it everything. They tried to make it, Hey, you're
00:43:09 ◼ ► going to, you're going to browse real estate listings on here. You can do your online shopping
00:43:13 ◼ ► on your Apple TV. You can play games and yeah, you can also watch TV shows. And you know,
00:43:18 ◼ ► similar to the Apple watch, we very quickly realized, okay, all of these things that this
00:43:38 ◼ ► because of hardware reasons. Like I think this is one of the, obviously with the exception
00:43:47 ◼ ► that's hard for nerds like us to get used to is that we can have devices in our computing
00:43:54 ◼ ► lives now that have the computing power to be really good game platforms, but just aren't
00:44:00 ◼ ► for other reasons that seem like insufficient justifications for it not being a game platform.
00:44:06 ◼ ► Like the Apple TV is a terrible game platform for two big reasons. Number one, just, you
00:44:11 ◼ ► know, Apple and gaming, they just, you know, they, they mishandle it in so many ways and,
00:44:16 ◼ ► and what brings so many games to the iPhone does not bring games to the Apple TV. Number
00:44:20 ◼ ► two, it doesn't come with a controller. And also by the way, number three, the weird on
00:44:29 ◼ ► TV, you know, it has the hardware to be a great game platform. There's nothing stopping
00:44:34 ◼ ► it hardware wise from being a great game platform, but it's all those other ecosystem problems
00:44:43 ◼ ► thing. And, you know, we have kind of an embarrassment of riches in computing these days that the
00:44:59 ◼ ► that, especially if you're into emulators. Like that's, that's a great platform for that.
00:45:07 ◼ ► it's pretty good quality games for less than the cost of an Apple TV game controller. So,
00:45:14 ◼ ► you know, we have lots of other ways to play games, but it is frustrating as nerds to see
00:45:18 ◼ ► something like this that can have the ability to play really great games and just for kind
00:45:25 ◼ ► Yeah. And that's, that's the fork on the road that Apple has. Do you want to keep making
00:45:29 ◼ ► the Apple TV have better and better SOCs in it? If so, to one end. And even just taking
00:45:35 ◼ ► away the fan, like maybe, you know, makes it cheaper, fewer parts, you know, no potential
00:45:39 ◼ ► fan knows, though again, the old one was silent, but it makes it a worse gaming platform. Like
00:45:44 ◼ ► I said, last time I tried to play a game on the Apple TV, there are games that play perfectly
00:45:47 ◼ ► fine on the Apple TV. It's surprisingly powerful for its size and cost. And they were taken
00:45:51 ◼ ► away from like, they were no longer available. I had played them on Apple TV before and now
00:45:56 ◼ ► they weren't there anymore. And that's not a great experience. I can't remember the last
00:45:59 ◼ ► time that happened on any other gaming platform or console. Like it's not even, it was like,
00:46:03 ◼ ► it was available on an older version of Apple TV. It was just, it was removed from Apple
00:46:11 ◼ ► you know, I'm not expecting it to play like super duper fancy, you know, triple A games
00:46:19 ◼ ► do run comfortably on it, it's nice that it runs games. I think it should run games and
00:46:24 ◼ ► it can run them comfortably with its current size SOC, but Apple's mishandling of games
00:46:34 ◼ ► reason to double the power of the CPU and GPU because it can already play all your streaming
00:46:39 ◼ ► apps without breaking a sweat. So yeah, what is Apple going to do with this device? I assume
00:46:44 ◼ ► they'll just keep upgrading the SOC just because they don't want to keep manufacturing the
00:46:52 ◼ ► off the, or stop paying for the seven nanometer line to be manufacturing chips and just take
00:46:57 ◼ ► the five nanometer ones or whatever. But you know, I personally hope they steep, they keep
00:47:02 ◼ ► increasing the SOC because I believe there is a potential future in it as a casual game
00:47:08 ◼ ► platform for the television. I prefer it to, I certainly prefer to buying a Raspberry Pi
00:47:12 ◼ ► and hooking it up. And I prefer it to having to log over one of my big game consoles because
00:47:17 ◼ ► right now it's the only gaming thing I have connected to my big TV. And it's just there
00:47:21 ◼ ► for like brief casual game sessions or a few particular games that are available on Apple
00:47:25 ◼ ► TV. But yeah, it's, it's, uh, we'll, we'll find out when they release the next one, find
00:47:30 ◼ ► out what they do. Have they made it more powerful? Have they made it more expensive? Have they
00:47:34 ◼ ► added a fan or is it just status quo? Finally, in follow up a keyboard cleaning corner. Uh,
00:47:39 ◼ ► we were asked about this, I think in an Ask ATP, but basically, you know, how do you clean
00:47:43 ◼ ► your keyboard when powering off the computer and then mashing on any freaking key? We'll
00:47:52 ◼ ► wanted to bring up a friend of the show. Uh, G Rambo writes and makes cleanup buddy. We'll
00:47:57 ◼ ► put a link in the show notes, which is another one of those tools that'll basically disable
00:48:04 ◼ ► believe, uh, wrote in, uh, and said, cleaning the keyboard and our on an arm Mac can be
00:48:21 ◼ ► press the power button for another seven seconds. After that, the computer can only be powered
00:48:25 ◼ ► on by using the power button. I tried this and it didn't work. Then I turned off my computer
00:48:29 ◼ ► and I tried it again and it didn't work. Then I tried it. I turned the computer back off,
00:48:33 ◼ ► tried it for a third time and I'll be damned if it didn't work. And it really does do exactly
00:48:38 ◼ ► what Daniel said. I guess I just screwed it up the first, uh, the first time. And I guess,
00:48:59 ◼ ► sounds like something you might've heard before, it's different. Uh, and Daniel said he tried
00:49:08 ◼ ► it is complicated and it can be done lots of other people like why you have this problem,
00:49:14 ◼ ► lock, the only way you're going to do anything damaging to your computer is if you accidentally
00:49:17 ◼ ► fat finger your password into the lock thing or touch the touch ID thing with your fingerprint.
00:49:36 ◼ ► that's why I was like, Oh no, is this doing an SMC reset? Is it going to reset some firmware
00:49:40 ◼ ► things? Is it going to like turn on the boot chime when the boot chime was off? Have you
00:49:53 ◼ ► as long as you don't touch the power button. And then once you turn the computer back on,
00:49:57 ◼ ► it forgets that this is the mode it was in and it goes back to any, any button can, it's
00:50:05 ◼ ► a permanent setting. Yeah. They should, they should just put this like instead of these
00:50:08 ◼ ► weird, you know, key combo and things that holding stuff, just put it in like the recovery
00:50:18 ◼ ► down the power button or whatever, put this there with a GUI or something or add a feature
00:50:23 ◼ ► to Mac OS. Maybe they'll get to it eventually. That just says, I'm going to clean my keyboard,
00:50:42 ◼ ► to turn off that chime. Uh, and that used to be like a firmware setting, but now there's
00:50:47 ◼ ► actually a GUI for it. That's a perfect example of something like some people don't want their
00:50:51 ◼ ► Mac to make a noise when it boots or restarts or whatever. And some people do, some people
00:51:02 ◼ ► everybody else, put a little tiny switch buried somewhere in system settings. We'll find it
00:51:09 ◼ ► So for topics, uh, we have some somewhat breaking news from a little less than a week ago. Um,
00:51:17 ◼ ► Apple has come out of left field and has bought pixel mater, which I don't think I certainly
00:51:22 ◼ ► didn't see coming. I don't know that anyone really saw it coming, but, uh, there's a release
00:51:26 ◼ ► on pixel maters website. Uh, in part it reads pixel mater, sign an agreement to be acquired
00:51:31 ◼ ► by Apple subject to regulatory approval. There will be no material changes to the pixel meter
00:51:34 ◼ ► per to the pixel meter pro pixel made of our iOS and photo mater apps at this time. Stay
00:51:42 ◼ ► Well, I think a lot, some people did predict this. I'm not in the world of seeing who's
00:51:48 ◼ ► going to get acquired by Apple and image editing apps, but some people in that world said,
00:51:51 ◼ ► Oh yeah, they expected this for a long time. Pixel mater is highly regarded company with
00:51:55 ◼ ► highly regarded products that have received awards from Apple in the past. I don't know
00:52:04 ◼ ► they are Mac apps. I believe at least pixel mater is written with app kit cause it's that
00:52:13 ◼ ► They are Mac apps. Uh, they are award winning. I think I own all of them except for maybe
00:52:18 ◼ ► the iOS one. Uh, cause I mostly do this stuff on my Mac. Uh, and Apple bought the whole
00:52:25 ◼ ► company and Apple being Apple, they're not going to tell you why they bought the company
00:52:30 ◼ ► other than giving you know, or they can statement. They have like a text expanded shortcut that
00:52:40 ◼ ► who like and use, uh, some of these apps, you're immediately worried and saying, what's
00:52:46 ◼ ► going to happen to pixel mater or photo meter or whatever it is that you're doing. Obviously
00:52:51 ◼ ► the press release says no changes are planned at this time, but the big question is did
00:52:56 ◼ ► Apple buy this so they could continue, continue developing, uh, the pixel mater family of
00:53:02 ◼ ► photo editing apps. Did they buy this so they can incorporate that functionality into their
00:53:06 ◼ ► own Apple photos apps or did they buy it just as an Aqua hire where we don't care about your
00:53:11 ◼ ► apps. We just wanted the people because it's really hard to find excellent Mac developers.
00:53:16 ◼ ► Hey, there's a bunch of excellent Mac developers. Let's buy the company as a way of, of, of
00:53:21 ◼ ► hiring all the people in the company and put some golden handcuffs on them that says their
00:53:25 ◼ ► Apple stock doesn't invest until X or Y number of years and then just allow pixel mater and
00:53:35 ◼ ► things is going to happen? I don't know, but I'm kind of not happy about this acquisition.
00:53:41 ◼ ► Yeah, I think if you use the pixel mater family of apps, you probably should be a little wary
00:53:51 ◼ ► you, the customer of these apps is not promising. Now again, who knows what will happen? You
00:53:57 ◼ ► know, this, it's a new situation. They could always do things differently now than they've
00:54:01 ◼ ► done in the past, but it's not a great track record. So, you know, when they say, you know,
00:54:06 ◼ ► nothing will change or no changes to the apps at this time, well that doesn't mean anything.
00:54:12 ◼ ► They posted this few days ago. They could have, they could change it tomorrow like that,
00:54:15 ◼ ► you know, so that, that means nothing. Um, it does, they're very careful to, to not make
00:54:30 ◼ ► it. I do think it's probably like, you know, there have been speculation on how much money
00:54:34 ◼ ► it had to be because they're seeking regulatory approval and everything. It's probably, if
00:54:45 ◼ ► probably going to spend that much money to just get a handful of people to work for them.
00:54:48 ◼ ► That, that doesn't seem like it's worth it to them for that amount. Um, so it is probably
00:54:52 ◼ ► about buying at least the apps as well. But if you look at what are the likely outcomes
00:54:58 ◼ ► here, I think the most likely is that they watered down some of this and integrated into
00:55:08 ◼ ► the photos app. So the, so these apps then go away. That is the most likely in my opinion.
00:55:13 ◼ ► Second most likely is these continue to be standalone apps in some form. And then maybe
00:55:18 ◼ ► Apple, you know, bundles them together with Logic and Final Cut and makes a pro bundle.
00:55:23 ◼ ► Maybe they give it away for free. Maybe it's a $200, you know, new version of Aperture.
00:55:31 ◼ ► separate apps. Those, that's possible. I just don't think that's, that's the most likely.
00:55:35 ◼ ► I think by far, in my opinion, the most likely outcome here is bits and pieces of this get
00:55:42 ◼ ► integrated in possibly a watered down way into the photos app. That I think gives Apple
00:55:51 ◼ ► cares about the existing customer basis of these apps really. They just care about like,
00:55:56 ◼ ► what can we do with this asset? And I think that's the way Apple will get the most bang
00:56:00 ◼ ► for their buck in their view. That, although, you know, that is pretty rough for the customer.
00:56:05 ◼ ► So we can hope, what I'm hoping for is more of an Aperture situation. More of like, they,
00:56:11 ◼ ► they use this to, you know, to continue their own efforts into making, you know, high quality
00:56:30 ◼ ► Yeah, well, we have a couple of examples in a, well, one from recent history and one from
00:56:41 ◼ ► workflow, sorry, singular and incorporated into the OS and continued to enhance it. It's
00:56:54 ◼ ► an essential headlining feature of their operating system. They essentially bought from a third
00:57:07 ◼ ► shortcuts and it's for the people who liked workflow. I think they also like shortcuts.
00:57:12 ◼ ► So that's probably the best it could possibly go. If Apple buys you and decides you're going
00:57:17 ◼ ► to be part of our existing platform, right? You're not going to, we're not going to continue
00:57:21 ◼ ► to sell you as a third party app. You're going to literally going to be a part of iOS or
00:57:27 ◼ ► the best it can go. That's normally not how it happens. Most of the time when Apple buys
00:57:31 ◼ ► small companies, whatever they were making is never seen again. Now the bad story about
00:57:36 ◼ ► pro apps is Apple many, many years ago, went on a series of, uh, you know, buying sprees,
00:57:43 ◼ ► buying up all these pro applications to essentially make its own pro suite of stuff. Final Cut
00:57:56 ◼ ► was purchased. Um, aperture, I forget if that was purchased or they just purchased the people
00:58:05 ◼ ► they were making. I used to sell for a lot of money and one by one, Apple has lost interest
00:58:10 ◼ ► in those pro apps. Aperture went away. Shake went away. I think they sold something called
00:58:15 ◼ ► color as a color correction. Like they sold these things for hundreds of dollars trying
00:58:28 ◼ ► so now when Apple buys an app like Pixelmator, any youngster who's like, wow, they're going
00:58:33 ◼ ► to make a Photoshop competitor. It's like, look, been there, done that. Apple had a brief
00:58:48 ◼ ► money into the development of them and you will never compete with Adobe. If you do that,
00:58:51 ◼ ► Apple will continue to put money into Photoshop. So if you're going to compete with Photoshop,
00:59:01 ◼ ► update it again in six years, but we're not going to tell you like that's not how to compete.
00:59:04 ◼ ► So Apple needs to decide, do you want to make pro applications at all? If so, you could
00:59:17 ◼ ► you do that, anyone who's old enough to remember Aperture and so on will go, eh, no thanks.
00:59:23 ◼ ► Apple doesn't seem like they're really committed to this whole pro app thing. I'm not going
00:59:41 ◼ ► that sort of past trauma of pro apps, which makes anybody over a certain age look at this
00:59:46 ◼ ► and say there's just no way they are going to continue shipping and developing Pixelmator
00:59:56 ◼ ► versions of Pixelmator Pro, improving it over time, adding, you know, when the AI features
01:00:06 ◼ ► something to erase it or whatever. That's one of the first things I bought it for. It's
01:00:10 ◼ ► great at, right? In addition to just being a general purpose photo editor. I cannot imagine
01:00:15 ◼ ► Apple deciding we want to be in that business. We're going to keep developing Pixelmator
01:00:20 ◼ ► Pro. And even if Apple did that, everybody with a memory is looking at them and saying,
01:00:26 ◼ ► I think I'll take a pass. I think I'll stick with insert whatever they're using now, whether
01:00:45 ◼ ► and try to shove them into photos, again, especially with additions of like the cleanup
01:00:49 ◼ ► feature and everything, does that mean Apple's not going to take Pixelmator's AI cleanup
01:00:55 ◼ ► thing? And maybe it spoils for over time. We'll probably talk about some of these features
01:01:06 ◼ ► will they say, okay, well, uh, 90% of these overlap. So which one do we take? Do we throw
01:01:11 ◼ ► away all the photos features for adjusting levels and curves and saturation and brightness
01:01:19 ◼ ► swap them all out for the Pixelmator Pro equivalents? Or do we do 50 50 or do we just delete the
01:01:25 ◼ ► entire code base of Apple photos and replace it with Pixelmator? And how does that work
01:01:36 ◼ ► to become a Pixelmator Pro caliber image editor, I don't want them to take the subset of features
01:01:43 ◼ ► that are in Pixelmator that are in photos and extract them from Pixelmator Pro and shove
01:01:47 ◼ ► them in photos. Because as a user, the result of that is the next version of photos I get
01:01:52 ◼ ► has all the same features, but it's code that was ripped out of another app and shoved into
01:01:58 ◼ ► an existing app. And it's probably buggy because of that. Not because it was buggy, but it
01:02:02 ◼ ► was Pixelmator Pro, but now they're just like ripping the guts out and shoving it in there.
01:02:05 ◼ ► And from my experience, it's not any different. Did you add any new features? Well, no, but
01:02:09 ◼ ► now they're Pixelmator powered. Does that make a difference to me? Are they appreciably
01:02:12 ◼ ► better than they were in photos? Like I don't, I don't understand this, which is why when
01:02:16 ◼ ► I look at it as an aqua hire, you said like they shouldn't, they probably wouldn't have
01:02:31 ◼ ► many times, I'm not sure how many good Mac developers there still are inside Apple, let
01:02:36 ◼ ► alone out there in the world. And so this is just like a unicorn where it's like a group
01:02:40 ◼ ► of dedicated hardcore Mac developers familiar with Apple's platforms who are actually good
01:02:44 ◼ ► at making Mac apps. I think Apple does probably want those people. But yeah, it's probably
01:02:51 ◼ ► to use these apps for. Yeah. I mean, I think the obvious answer is to suck some of particularly
01:03:19 ◼ ► I don't have a whole lot of experience with their stuff, but I will say that the experiences
01:03:24 ◼ ► I've had is that they are, as you said, Mac asked Mac apps like they really, really are
01:03:30 ◼ ► Mac apps. And I could imagine it as an Aqua hire, but I don't know. It seems like a whole
01:03:37 ◼ ► lot of money to pay and a whole lot of effort just to get people to work on your stuff.
01:03:45 ◼ ► I mean, it seems to me like it would be more than that, that this is more of a test. Again,
01:03:49 ◼ ► we don't know the actual numbers. We're just guessing because people are saying like, oh,
01:03:56 ◼ ► amount. Like Apple, to be clear, no one announced how much this acquisition is for. So we don't
01:04:00 ◼ ► actually know. So that is an unknown. Another angle on this is how people are saying is
01:04:11 ◼ ► can anyone, because they were so good at what they did there. You again, award-winning,
01:04:15 ◼ ► they made amazing apps. Everybody loved them and they can't survive as an independent company.
01:04:19 ◼ ► And I don't think that's the case. I think they could survive as an independent company.
01:04:23 ◼ ► But when Apple comes knocking with a giant bag of money, if you want a giant bag of money,
01:04:28 ◼ ► you take it. Like everyone has their price. I don't think Pixelmator was like, at least
01:04:37 ◼ ► they made really good products with a not too big company. They should have been profitable
01:04:41 ◼ ► and sustainable. I think they were profitable and sustainable. But Apple can solve that
01:04:49 ◼ ► I don't think this is a condemnation of the Mac market. It's bad for the Mac market because
01:04:53 ◼ ► I liked them being an independent company that caused Apple to have to compete and cause
01:04:58 ◼ ► Adobe to have to compete and gave me an alternative to an Adobe subscription. Like I loved when
01:05:02 ◼ ► they were independent. So I feel for the people like, oh, that's one of our last great independent
01:05:14 ◼ ► I don't think it says anything about the viability of making good software for the Mac. I think
01:05:23 ◼ ► make money if you do so in a way that doesn't require like 10,000 engineers over the hell
01:05:37 ◼ ► took a great player off the table. It's bad news for Apple's awards because who are they
01:05:45 ◼ ► developers inside Pixelmator. Meanwhile, Apple is still throwing money out the window because
01:05:51 ◼ ► they apparently have put $1.1 billion into Globalstar's satellite network. And that includes
01:06:00 ◼ ► an ownership stake. So reading from six colors, Apple satellite partner Globalstar has disclosed
01:06:09 ◼ ► to capital improvements and $400 million in equity, which gives Apple a 20% stake in the
01:06:17 ◼ ► aren't that many companies around with this, with these kinds of capabilities and by locking
01:06:26 ◼ ► that they use for the satellite texting, satellite emergency stuff, et cetera. This is where
01:06:31 ◼ ► he kept asking, what is Apple going to charge for that? They're like, oh, it's free for
01:06:34 ◼ ► the first year, but now it's free for another year. And now it's like, yeah, we're part
01:06:38 ◼ ► owners of the company. So I guess this will continue to be free. This is one way to resolve
01:06:50 ◼ ► and we came up with all sorts of schemes and how they could charge for it, but retroactively
01:06:53 ◼ ► after you've been saved. So they'll charge you at the time of using it, but if you live
01:06:57 ◼ ► through the thing, they can send you a charge or something. But it's like, actually maybe
01:07:00 ◼ ► we'll just invest $1.1 billion and get a 20% stake in the satellite company. And this is
01:07:10 ◼ ► shop around for somebody who has a bunch of satellites circling the earth or around the
01:07:15 ◼ ► earth if they're stationary. But anyway, there's not a lot of options, right? There's this,
01:07:22 ◼ ► there's Starlink, I guess. How many choices do you have? And if you're Apple and you want
01:07:28 ◼ ► to essentially protect yourself both by making sure that you can continue to offer this feature
01:07:34 ◼ ► on your product, because there's a lot of iPhones out there, and so you need a significant
01:07:37 ◼ ► amount of capacity potentially. So you want to say, we don't want to stop shipping this
01:07:41 ◼ ► feature. We build it into our phones. We want to keep shipping the feature. You can sign
01:07:56 ◼ ► and kicks you out and now you can't make contracts with them or you have to deal with Elon Musk,
01:08:00 ◼ ► which no one wants to do, that's bad for the company. So this seems like a relatively smart
01:08:05 ◼ ► investment. Although I do have to say 1.1 billion seems a lot for a feature that I personally
01:08:11 ◼ ► view as one of those like cool, like off in the corner features of an iPhone. It's great
01:08:26 ◼ ► and for people who find themselves in an area without coverage and they still want to text
01:08:29 ◼ ► people like that's what this is for. So it is a boon for them to put it in their products,
01:08:39 ◼ ► or like a new factory in Arizona that we might talk about in the future or whatever. So it
01:08:49 ◼ ► lot of sense to me and I don't, I don't blame Apple for doing it. And certainly the idea
01:09:02 ◼ ► crummy, not, you know, Apple's not above it, but it seems like it would be crummy to be
01:09:06 ◼ ► like, well, we're perfectly happy to save your life if you're out, you know, boondocking
01:09:20 ◼ ► you retroactively, but the thing is like these satellites as amazing as they are, they're
01:09:25 ◼ ► never going to be a major part of data communications on phones because there's just not enough
01:09:32 ◼ ► bandwidth, right? It's not like, Hey, you won't need a cell provider. You'll do everything
01:09:36 ◼ ► over satellite. I don't think the global star satellite network, even with this $1.1 billion
01:09:48 ◼ ► the speed of light delays and all that other stuff or whatever, which is no small thing
01:10:01 ◼ ► is an investment purely for the types of things that currently doing, there's no future scenario
01:10:06 ◼ ► where this has some amazing new use that we're not even thinking of. It's never going to
01:10:15 ◼ ► Apple TV over to everybody's phones. Like that's just not going to happen. This is purely
01:10:18 ◼ ► for when you absolutely need to connect and there's no other option outer space, right?
01:10:28 ◼ ► to their products, but it is never going to replace any existing thing they do. So maybe
01:10:33 ◼ ► 1.1 billion is just pocket change from Apple. So maybe it's not a big deal, but and again,
01:10:42 ◼ ► do the exact same type of thing, whether it's a car company or you know, Android phone seller
01:10:52 ◼ ► Apple is a part owner in the company, they get a share of that profit as well. So maybe
01:10:57 ◼ ► By the way, real time follow up, they're actually not geostationary. They're actually low earth
01:11:00 ◼ ► orbit satellites from Globalstar. I did not know that and I would not have guessed that,
01:11:03 ◼ ► but that means they can be significantly lower latency than geostationary ones. However,
01:11:14 ◼ ► Yeah, there's just not enough of them. I mean, as many as there are there and there are too
01:11:18 ◼ ► many Starlink satellites, but as many as there are, there are far more cell phone towers in
01:11:23 ◼ ► the United States and they're closer to you. Those cell phone towers are much closer to
01:11:27 ◼ ► you and they're way, way more of them. So that is, it's going to be difficult to compete
01:11:34 ◼ ► It's also, I mean, even with Starlink, like it's still a heck of a lot cheaper to build
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01:13:47 ◼ ► There's been some new rumors and rumors about changed plans for future vision pro hardware.
01:13:54 ◼ ► Apparently Apple hasn't totally given up on it. And according to Ming-Chi Kuo production
01:14:00 ◼ ► of a cheaper vision pro has been delayed beyond 2027. This means Apple's only new head mounted
01:14:06 ◼ ► display device in 2025 will be the vision pro with an upgraded M5 processor. Additionally,
01:14:13 ◼ ► Mark Gurman writes, I also continue to hear that Apple is seriously considering a device
01:14:17 ◼ ► that offloads the computing components to an iPhone and serves as an accessory for watching
01:14:21 ◼ ► movies. That's something that would be roughly akin to the glasses offered by companies like
01:14:25 ◼ ► Xreal. So the Ming-Chi Kuo one, I don't know if this throwing in this aside about the 2025
01:14:37 ◼ ► pro is what we talked about in the past. And that's why this is a change of rumored plans.
01:14:41 ◼ ► Again, this is all rumored, but the plan that we heard about was, oh, they're not going
01:14:45 ◼ ► to make another high end one. First, they're going to concentrate on the cheaper one and
01:14:48 ◼ ► the cheaper one should be coming. And we talked about maybe like $1,500 and how can they make
01:14:52 ◼ ► it cheaper and blah, blah, blah. And the cheaper one will be coming like next year or something.
01:15:01 ◼ ► okay, well, if that was the only rumor when I first read this, I'm like, oh, that's not
01:15:05 ◼ ► good. Cause if they were, if the cheaper one is going to be the next one and the next one's
01:15:08 ◼ ► going to be in 2027, that means we'd be stuck with the original vision pro until 2027 with
01:15:13 ◼ ► no changes. That is grim. Okay. But here comes this other room where it's like, and that
01:15:17 ◼ ► means if the cheaper one is late to 2027, all we have is the 20, 20 fine version, which
01:15:23 ◼ ► is basically today's vision pro upgraded to an M five. And that's not bad, honestly. Like,
01:15:29 ◼ ► you know, the member of the vision of rose M two, uh, upgrade to M five, maybe it'll have
01:15:33 ◼ ► like an R two processor in there or something, presumably with the same screens and probably
01:15:37 ◼ ► around the same price or whatever. But that is a better vision pro. The rumors are that
01:15:42 ◼ ► we'll be able to do Apple intelligence cause it will have more Ram M five is going to be
01:15:45 ◼ ► massively better than the M two same resolution on the screens means that we breaking less
01:15:50 ◼ ► of a sweat while doing all of its stuff. Maybe it'll even get better battery life. Like that's
01:15:54 ◼ ► a second version of the existing vision pro the cheap one being delayed sounds real bad,
01:16:08 ◼ ► basically the minimum expected level of commitment to the product. Again, ask, ask Apple about
01:16:13 ◼ ► the uh, max studio and Mac pro Apple's commitment to its various products, sometimes waivers,
01:16:19 ◼ ► but not having another vision pro product to 2027 is just untenable. People would forget
01:16:32 ◼ ► power. Um, but yeah, an M five version 2095 actually doesn't sound that bad to me. I mean
01:16:48 ◼ ► few tiny tweaks around here and there, that's not going to move the needle on sales. No
01:16:53 ◼ ► one is looking at the current vision pro and saying, well, I would have bought it if it
01:16:56 ◼ ► was faster. Yeah. I mean, I think it's just, if you have to just, just what you have to
01:16:59 ◼ ► do for the people who already want a vision pro to not feel like they should, to not be
01:17:04 ◼ ► repelled by the fact that it still has an M two in it, right. You want it to get better,
01:17:09 ◼ ► you know, on some reasonable schedule. And so this is sort of just it, think of it this
01:17:13 ◼ ► way. It's just maintaining the existing product. It's not making a new vision pro. It's not
01:17:17 ◼ ► making a vision pro successor. It's just like, Hey, the existing vision pro every once in
01:17:20 ◼ ► a while we do need to update these things cause they get old. Right. And more importantly,
01:17:24 ◼ ► it's not going to expand the market at all. Like if I think what, what they have hopefully
01:17:29 ◼ ► by now learned is like if they want to expand the market for their AR VR product, uh, you
01:17:34 ◼ ► know, category, they need to go in a different direction in some way, whether it's a substantial
01:17:39 ◼ ► cheaper design or you know, the glasses or, you know, just some other direction will be
01:17:44 ◼ ► required. But yeah, you're right. It is nice that they will be updating this product eventually.
01:17:48 ◼ ► Maybe. And pushing it out the cheap one out to 2027 to me basically reads like they couldn't
01:17:53 ◼ ► figure out how to make a cheaper one in 2025. Like we talked about where are they going
01:18:02 ◼ ► down and you can rip out all the rip out the eyeballs in the front to make the case out
01:18:06 ◼ ► of plastic, try to put a cheaper SOC in there. But like those screens, if they have screens
01:18:11 ◼ ► don't get cheaper and Apple has limited control over that, like this just, there's not a lot
01:18:16 ◼ ► of components you can totally remove and not a lot of ones that get cheaper. So I think
01:18:27 ◼ ► gonna move the needle at all at this market, you have to do something. And one of the things
01:18:34 ◼ ► it, you know, if I make it $3,000 and 3500, who cares? Like that's, that doesn't do anything.
01:18:39 ◼ ► So hopefully in 2027, they think they have promises from their part suppliers that will
01:18:44 ◼ ► be able to get you screens that are good, that are half the price of the current screens
01:18:48 ◼ ► and you'll get rid of the front facing eyeball screen and you'll put an M5 processor in 2027,
01:18:54 ◼ ► which will be plenty fast, but it'll be like a two year old chip by then. Like, I think
01:18:58 ◼ ► that's what that rumor means. And then Gurman's rumor about glasses that offload their stuff
01:19:02 ◼ ► to the phone, yada, yada, like that will obviously happen eventually. But I have trouble seeing
01:19:08 ◼ ► how unless Apple is just going to like throw another, like dart at the dartboard and say,
01:19:16 ◼ ► it's just like another way to have a screen. Why don't we try that? Sure. You can, I guess,
01:19:24 ◼ ► like screen on face. That thing's not going to be watching your fingers for tapping and,
01:19:28 ◼ ► and doing all it's like, it's not, it's not a vision pro. It is a way to look at movies
01:19:33 ◼ ► on your, on the plane in glasses that are smaller and lighter and cheaper. And I don't,
01:19:49 ◼ ► inside of them, but it's certainly a way lighter weight way to look at a movie on a plane,
01:19:56 ◼ ► for example, then strap it on a gigantic vision pro headset. Like they don't look like glasses,
01:20:01 ◼ ► glasses, but they look like dorky, big computer. They're like, kind of like, remember those
01:20:10 ◼ ► than that, but not much bigger, nothing compared to a vision pro and they're way cheaper and
01:20:14 ◼ ► they look worse. And it's like, okay, that's a product that exists. Seriously considering
01:20:26 ◼ ► Hey, we make this vision pro thing that does all sorts of amazing stuff, but nobody wants
01:20:33 ◼ ► Well, honestly, I mean, I can kind of see the argument there. So, okay, two things we've
01:20:45 ◼ ► we ended up learning it was really good at like two things. And that's enough of a product
01:20:49 ◼ ► right there. What we've learned so far with the vision pro admittedly is not much cause
01:21:06 ◼ ► there's news in the beta there that's apparently better, but you know, we'll see how that plays
01:21:11 ◼ ► out for everybody in practice. But you know, for the most part, a large part of the, of
01:21:17 ◼ ► the, you know, good usage experiences of the vision pro come down to either using it as
01:21:23 ◼ ► a screen for something else or watching movies on it, which is a fancy way of using it as
01:21:27 ◼ ► a screen for something else. So if that, if it turns out that is a huge part of what people
01:21:37 ◼ ► Well, if you can deliver something that gives people those use cases for a lot cheaper,
01:21:44 ◼ ► because again, like, you know, and the rumors that we were saying earlier about like there's
01:21:47 ◼ ► rumors of a cheaper vision pro, that's not to say a cheap vision pro, just a less expensive
01:22:00 ◼ ► getting cheaper over time peg the price at something like 1500 to $3,000 instead of $3,500.
01:22:09 ◼ ► That's still way too expensive for most people to want to buy this thing. But if most people
01:22:18 ◼ ► can do that for a lot less. There's a lot about the vision pro that you don't necessarily
01:22:25 ◼ ► good market for this, I think that's fine. Again, going back to our Apple TV discussion
01:22:36 ◼ ► say this for NDA reasons for, you know, for the lab, but this is something I felt immediately
01:22:44 ◼ ► felt it as well. Using, like trying to compute on the vision pro, getting, you know, using
01:22:50 ◼ ► apps, moving around apps, navigating, trying to get things done or, you know, certainly
01:23:10 ◼ ► a lot of information density in a way that's useful to you with the perspective that you
01:23:15 ◼ ► have. You have these kind of course input methods. You don't have a lot of input precision.
01:23:20 ◼ ► Text input is pretty rough. Certainly you don't want to be doing a lot of like editing,
01:23:24 ◼ ► moving around like fine motor movements. It's not very good at that. It feels like using
01:23:30 ◼ ► apps on an Apple TV. Well, what if it turns out again, like just like I was saying earlier,
01:23:34 ◼ ► the Apple TV has the hardware capability to be a gaming platform, a real estate pricing
01:23:40 ◼ ► platform, a shopping platform, but what people actually end up doing with it, what it's actually
01:24:08 ◼ ► think that's fine. Certainly that will change what the product should be and maybe some
01:24:13 ◼ ► of the things they've invested in won't end up panning out in that way, but that is very
01:24:25 ◼ ► sell much less expensive glasses or headsets that are mostly just being relatively simple
01:24:35 ◼ ► screens, that's still a perfectly fine market. This whole market with AR and VR, obviously
01:24:42 ◼ ► there's been all this news with META's glasses they came out with and the weird Snapchat
01:24:58 ◼ ► investment with AR and VR, but mostly AR now, what are we working towards with all of that?
01:25:06 ◼ ► What demand are we trying to solve with these products? And I think that the tech industry
01:25:36 ◼ ► laptop or my Mac, my portable needs are better done by my phone, my movie watching is better
01:25:56 ◼ ► and hype and time and attention into this dream of when we finally get AR glasses, it'll
01:26:10 ◼ ► as an industry in terms of our expectations and our attention. In the same way that, again,
01:26:24 ◼ ► means that the role of this product was not what everyone expected at first. And everyone
01:26:29 ◼ ► expected it to replace phones, it will never do that. It's kind of not physically right
01:26:33 ◼ ► for that. What if AR and VR glasses are mostly just good for watching movies? That's not
01:26:46 ◼ ► lots of different things that do lots of different roles. But it seems like everybody wants AR
01:27:10 ◼ ► there's the tech there to do something like evolution pro? Not at a reasonable price and
01:27:42 ◼ ► off. So where is the sweet spot with current tech? It's kind of like Palm OS versus the
01:27:46 ◼ ► Newton, right? The Palm was worse, but the Newton was too big, too expensive, too heavy.
01:28:02 ◼ ► "Oh, we introduced this product. It's basically like a little tiny iPhone and it can do all
01:28:12 ◼ ► It still ran Watch OS. Obviously, they changed Watch Kit to whatever the successor was. But
01:28:17 ◼ ► in general, you could still call it Apple Watch and it was fine, right? With them coming
01:28:22 ◼ ► out with something like this, like the Xreal thing, which doesn't watch where your hands
01:28:30 ◼ ► the Vision Pro platform? Does it even run Vision OS? Can you sell that as a vision with
01:28:47 ◼ ► Who cares if it is? Is it this platform that has no content and no software? Who cares?
01:28:57 ◼ ► and computing-wise? Would it even run apps? Or would it just be a screen? I'm not going
01:29:08 ◼ ► "Let's try a different avenue," and that avenue is sufficiently different from the one you
01:29:23 ◼ ► They kind of did that with the home accessories. Granted, they have no screens and people don't
01:29:35 ◼ ► that is running with the screen. Is that a new platform? Or are we going to just pretend
01:29:40 ◼ ► that's the same platform as the HomePod and the HomePod mini, even though that platform
01:29:43 ◼ ► has changed a lot under the covers? The thing with the screen, what platform is that? What
01:29:47 ◼ ► app does it run? With the whole backdoor of, "It's not really another platform. It's just
01:29:52 ◼ ► a thing that runs iPad and/or iPhone apps." Macs run iPad apps. Vision Pro runs iPad apps.
01:30:00 ◼ ► Is the Mac and the Vision Pro an iPad? No, but that's the way for us to take a platform
01:30:03 ◼ ► that actually has apps for it and shove it onto other platforms that don't. It's so weird.
01:30:13 ◼ ► be watching for here. Not so much the product that they roll out, because again, there's
01:30:16 ◼ ► a bunch of existing products on the market like this. I don't think they're setting the
01:30:18 ◼ ► market on fire, but they are certainly cheap enough for someone to buy as just an impulse
01:30:25 ◼ ► purchase for a toy. People seem to like them and they're cool. Is it better than watching
01:30:37 ◼ ► A cheap pair of glasses is honestly not going to have the image quality as my very expensive
01:30:46 ◼ ► OLED iPad does. Then again, it's private and it's smaller than an iPad and it stays with
01:30:51 ◼ ► me wherever I look, so it does have some advantages. I think Apple is going to, if they pursue
01:30:57 ◼ ► this, they're going to have some very difficult decisions to make about what exactly they're
01:31:01 ◼ ► doing. The thing I suggested before of saying, "This isn't a platform. This is a monitor."
01:31:11 ◼ ► update it every six years. It comes with an A13 inside it. It runs a variant of iOS, but
01:31:18 ◼ ► Yeah, exactly. That is saying, "We are not ready to do AR, but we are ready to put screens
01:31:25 ◼ ► A while ago, we floated the idea on this show. I think every time Apple is rumored to update
01:31:30 ◼ ► the Apple Watch SE and then it comes out and the price doesn't go down or it doesn't get
01:31:40 ◼ ► low-end Apple Watch even need to run apps?" If you look at other wearables that compete
01:31:47 ◼ ► with the Apple Watch, obviously there's the Android smartwatches that have feature parity
01:31:56 ◼ ► But then also there's this whole category of things like Fitbits, like smaller wearables
01:32:00 ◼ ► that are mostly just activity trackers that either have no screen, like a ring, or they
01:32:29 ◼ ► the Apple Watch is a hit. It has been successful and has been selling in large volumes since
01:32:35 ◼ ► it was introduced. But what if the only way they could make the Apple Watch as the platform
01:32:40 ◼ ► that they shipped with software and apps and everything, such as they were at the beginning,
01:32:44 ◼ ► but what if the only way for them to do that was for it to be $2,000 and have a bunch of
01:32:56 ◼ ► been more pressure on them to be like, "Okay, listen. If you want to make a smart wearable
01:33:08 ◼ ► That's kind of the situation that Vision Pro is in. They shot for the sky with this thing.
01:33:19 ◼ ► much there. There's engineering, there's amazing hardware, amazing software. The capabilities
01:33:31 ◼ ► it very expensive. Meanwhile, there are industries, if you look at the smaller gaming headsets
01:33:42 ◼ ► that's not a very big industry, but you start to see if there is pressure from down below
01:33:47 ◼ ► in the price curve for these other products that people are choosing instead of the Apple
01:33:54 ◼ ► Vision Pro and Apple has this giant platform built into this thing that's not really working
01:34:10 ◼ ► be a lot cheaper than what the current option is," they're not going to get there by retaining
01:34:28 ◼ ► the hardware to be cheaper, things like different manufacturing techniques, simpler materials,
01:34:32 ◼ ► maybe get rid of the weird external eyeball display, stuff like that. There are ways to
01:34:45 ◼ ► Now granted, Apple is a very patient company, so it would not surprise me if they really
01:34:50 ◼ ► did just want to wait 10 years for those little tiny screens to get cheaper or whatever. That
01:35:21 ◼ ► It's been a week. Spatial computing, that's the term. No one said spatial computing before
01:35:32 ◼ ► Right. But what if the whole concept of spatial computing was not the right direction to go?
01:35:38 ◼ ► That's what I'm saying. If you try to compute in the Vision Pro in regular productivity,
01:35:50 ◼ ► the wrong approach? And what if the right approach is something much simpler, like just
01:35:54 ◼ ► making it mostly about video playback or whatever? I don't think that's unreasonable to consider.
01:35:59 ◼ ► Or the right approach for this time. The right approach for this time and for this current
01:36:05 ◼ ► state of technology. I think Apple should continue to pursue the high end because that's
01:36:15 ◼ ► Again, with this rumor, another thing leaning in the direction of it being more like a monitor
01:36:19 ◼ ► is they're basically saying offload computing to the phone. But you don't want your phone
01:36:31 ◼ ► if you just ask it to project video, if you're watching a TV show or a movie or a YouTube
01:36:42 ◼ ► so it's saving on battery life by not lighting up its screen, right? It's using the battery
01:36:46 ◼ ► that's in your glasses. But it's just, it's doing networking, it's downloading the video
01:36:51 ◼ ► or if it's already downloaded it's streaming it off the SSD, it's decoding the compressed
01:36:54 ◼ ► video, it's sending the image, right? Anything more than that. Where you're asking the phone
01:37:03 ◼ ► floating window in front of you, your phone battery is going to get slaughtered. I mean,
01:37:08 ◼ ► hell, the Vision Pro with a huge battery that's bigger than the iPhone itself, two hours of
01:37:13 ◼ ► battery life. No one is going to want to sacrifice their phone battery life. That's why we're
01:37:15 ◼ ► saying with the Orion glasses where it's a separate puck or whatever, it'll be that way
01:37:24 ◼ ► or Vision Pro type feature set is just too computationally expensive. It will burn your
01:37:30 ◼ ► phone's battery and no one wants to spend their battery on that. But if it's just watching
01:37:38 ◼ ► for that because they literally watch movies on their phone on the plane and that's lighting
01:37:41 ◼ ► up the screen and sometimes they're using the phone's speaker which blows my mind because
01:37:44 ◼ ► you cannot hear anything on planes. But anyway, people do it. You hear them on the subway,
01:37:54 ◼ ► phone battery for. But yeah, a glasses device that uses the phone for compute, I think the
01:38:01 ◼ ► correct balance would be, "Hey phone, all you got to do is networking and video decoding
01:38:06 ◼ ► Yeah, I don't know how I feel about this. I don't think that Apple wants to admit defeat
01:38:21 ◼ ► simplified the Apple Watch, the hardware was largely the same and actually got more complicated.
01:38:26 ◼ ► It was the software that they focused. And I agree that using the Vision Pro as a computing
01:38:34 ◼ ► platform in my personal experience is trash when you don't have a TV, when you don't have
01:38:45 ◼ ► And for me, the only time the Vision Pro was really great as a computing platform was when
01:39:02 ◼ ► Mac's display. It sounds incredible but it requires a beta of Mac OS which I am not going
01:39:13 ◼ ► only time that the Vision Pro has really been a productivity tool for me was as a monitor
01:39:17 ◼ ► for my Mac. And a lot of that is probably because I'm an old man who just prefers using
01:39:21 ◼ ► the Mac. But I think a lot of that is because it's an imprecise tool. It's just not as precise
01:39:37 ◼ ► which is to say a really, really nice screen that you happen to be able to strap to your
01:39:45 ◼ ► completely and totally get rid of basically all the smarts and just have a dumb display.
01:39:50 ◼ ► Which makes me wonder, okay, what's the Apple way of doing a display such that it's smart
01:39:56 ◼ ► but not quite as smart as a Vision Pro? And I don't have an answer for that. That's why
01:40:20 ◼ ► they basically did was, let's just keep making Apple Watches until we can make a cheap one
01:40:28 ◼ ► the advance of technology. The screens are better, the battery life is better, it's thinner,
01:40:36 ◼ ► an Apple Watch SE that didn't have to go like the ex-real rumored saying like, "We gotta
01:40:44 ◼ ► we'll just keep making Apple Watches. We'll just keep plugging away. And Apple Watch is
01:40:48 ◼ ► an Apple Watch. There's no platform bifurcation. There's no limited version. It only does certain
01:40:52 ◼ ► stuff. We'll just patiently sit here." Because as Marco pointed out, the first one wasn't,
01:40:56 ◼ ► with the exception of the gold one, thousands of dollars, right? The first one was in the
01:40:59 ◼ ► ballpark price-wise. And they just did like they did with the iPhone. Mature the product,
01:41:12 ◼ ► would have been amazing if you had taken it back in time to the original Apple Watch introduction.
01:41:16 ◼ ► I think Apple would love to do that with Vision Pro. They're just many years away from getting
01:41:27 ◼ ► is just a vague rumor that Apple is seriously considering it. And Apple was so slowly, even
01:41:42 ◼ ► enough smarts to communicate with the thing that is rendering the video. And that's basically
01:41:45 ◼ ► all I use it for. And for that purpose, Casey, when you're like, "Oh, I want to play and
01:41:49 ◼ ► I want to take out my Vision Pro for my giant backpack and put it on and be that guy." Even
01:41:53 ◼ ► if the video quality, even if the image quality wasn't quite as good as the Vision Pro, I
01:42:04 ◼ ► a plane simply because they're so much smaller and lighter and the thing itself would be
01:42:07 ◼ ► cheaper. And if the image quality isn't quite as good, that's fine. It's still better than
01:42:18 ◼ ► access management. And thank you to our members who support us directly. You can join us at
01:42:28 ◼ ► topic that is exclusive to members. This week in Overtime, we'll be talking about our experiences
01:42:33 ◼ ► so far with what's been released from Apple Intelligence. So you can hear all about our
01:42:38 ◼ ► Apple Intelligence experiences so far in Overtime by joining at www.atp.fm/join. Thanks everybody,
01:43:49 ◼ ► All right. Let me start by reminding everyone, this is going to be group therapy for the
01:43:58 ◼ ► three of us. If you're not interested, that's fine. If you disagree with the way we feel
01:44:11 ◼ ► fine. You can skip this chapter. This is why chapters exist. Just move right along. But
01:44:21 ◼ ► a little cathartic to at least one of you. Last night, I was watching the coverage, and
01:44:30 ◼ ► as early as like 8, 8.30 Eastern, I was like, "This doesn't feel good." And by 9.30 Eastern,
01:44:46 ◼ ► and I looked at each other and we were like, "I don't think I want to stay up for this."
01:44:58 ◼ ► midnight and just ride this baby out and watch it come in. I was mostly excited for it, to
01:45:03 ◼ ► be honest with you. And 9.30, the two of us looked at each other and we were like, "Mm,
01:45:18 ◼ ► no. Oh no." And by the time I actually hauled myself out of bed at like 6.30ish, what was
01:45:25 ◼ ► a theoretical ending became an official in the terms of like the AP called it, CNN called
01:45:47 ◼ ► me, particularly, but I'm worried a fair bit for the women in my life. I'm not too terribly
01:45:59 ◼ ► concerned for Aaron because we are officially done having babies. We are surgically done
01:46:03 ◼ ► with having babies. So short of something very unusual happening, all of the baby-related
01:46:08 ◼ ► stuff, I'm not too worried about. But there's a lot of women's healthcare that is not strictly
01:46:12 ◼ ► about baby-making, despite what many men seem to believe. And that concerns me. And I'm
01:46:17 ◼ ► very concerned for Michaela. She'll be 10 when this, well, she'll be 10 four years from
01:46:23 ◼ ► now. We'll see if that's the end of this term of presidency. I'm worried for her. But the
01:46:31 ◼ ► people I'm really worried for are the people that don't look like me. And I'm very scared
01:46:45 ◼ ► talking with friends about like, how did we get here? And we can talk about that if the
01:46:49 ◼ ► two of you want to. I don't have any strong answers. I have theories, but no strong answers.
01:46:55 ◼ ► But I'm just, I'm really sad. I'm really sad that we as a country have decided that this
01:47:03 ◼ ► is what we want. And you know, even despite our full-throated endorsement last episode,
01:47:09 ◼ ► which I stand behind, I think all three of us could make passionate arguments. And, well,
01:47:20 ◼ ► stellar choice, but it was the choice we had. And so that's the choice I went with. And
01:47:44 ◼ ► at least suggested, if not caused an insurrection on the Capitol of the United States of America,
01:47:49 ◼ ► that, you know, seems to be saying very, very full-throatedly that he would like to prosecute
01:47:58 ◼ ► or otherwise imprison or get rid of the people who are, he considers his enemies, be they
01:48:10 ◼ ► who's cognitively falling apart. How can I look to my kids and say, there are consequences
01:48:17 ◼ ► for your actions when, as far as I can tell, he's never had a consequence for his action
01:48:21 ◼ ► other than failing upwards. And, and how do, how do I, how do I accept that half of the
01:48:29 ◼ ► country is enthusiastic about this? And again, I have some theories, but it's just hard to
01:48:39 ◼ ► episode. Most of it was very positive and I very much appreciate it. Some of it was not
01:48:51 ◼ ► Um, but you know, a couple of the people who wrote us were like, you know, I couldn't believe
01:48:56 ◼ ► that anyone could vote for Joe Biden. I couldn't believe that anyone would vote for him. Like
01:49:18 ◼ ► he bowed out because he was also cognitively falling apart. But I don't think Joe Biden
01:49:30 ◼ ► do we go from here? What do we, what do we tell the women in minorities and in, you know,
01:49:44 ◼ ► This is obviously going to be a much bigger topic than we can cover. My feeling on this
01:49:50 ◼ ► right now is I'm just massively depressed about it. I am fortunate that I don't typically
01:50:01 ◼ ► You know, like, like, you know, I woke up this morning and, and just couldn't do anything
01:50:13 ◼ ► you know, hard to focus on anything, hard to do anything. Um, certainly hard to be motivated
01:50:21 ◼ ► to do anything and hard to think about anything else. Um, you know, I think right now I'm
01:50:27 ◼ ► in coping mode. Um, you know, this is this, this pretty bad thing that has happened. Um,
01:50:44 ◼ ► you much at all. Um, in, in, you know, everyday ways. It will probably affect you in, in kind
01:50:50 ◼ ► of big picture long term ways in lots of ways that are, that are not good. Um, and, and
01:51:01 ◼ ► term ways, you are lucky and you are privileged. Um, because there are a lot of people who
01:51:11 ◼ ► now I'm, I don't want to even try to address that because there is just no way to, to give
01:51:16 ◼ ► it justice. Um, right now I'm in coping mode and everyone copes differently. Um, I would
01:51:23 ◼ ► encourage you as not a licensed psychotherapist, but instead as a person who talks about computers
01:51:31 ◼ ► on the internet, um, so take this with a grain of salt. Uh, I would encourage you to let
01:51:43 ◼ ► to follow what other people are telling you to feel. Whatever you feel, let yourself feel
01:51:48 ◼ ► it. Don't, and I wouldn't, I wouldn't at this point start pointing fingers and saying, this
01:51:58 ◼ ► whatever. Like I, this, this is not a productive time to do that right now. Just let yourself
01:52:04 ◼ ► feel it. If you, if you are mad, be mad. If you're sad, be sad. If you want to be furious,
01:52:10 ◼ ► if you want to be despondent, be despondent. This is the lyrics of a terrible song. Um,
01:52:16 ◼ ► figure out, you know, right now this is, you know, we were just hurt significantly. Deal
01:52:22 ◼ ► with the pain, deal with it. Like don't, don't just try to shove it down and process it later.
01:52:27 ◼ ► No, process it now. Uh, this is, this is what's going on right now for you. Um, you know,
01:52:32 ◼ ► and I, you know, you've got to figure out, you know, what, what is helpful to your feelings
01:52:42 ◼ ► found so far, things that do not help me include reading the news because I know it's bad.
01:52:50 ◼ ► I don't need to keep reading articles telling me how bad it is. I'm very aware of how bad
01:52:55 ◼ ► it is. Uh, we went through this already in 2016 through 2020. We, we went through this.
01:53:09 ◼ ► less of a shock because this happened already and we can expect largely many of the same
01:53:17 ◼ ► things to happen in the second term than what happened as what happened in the first term.
01:53:22 ◼ ► It's probably going to be a lot of similarities. If you are like me in the sense that reading
01:53:26 ◼ ► the news does not help you feel better about anything or move on with your life in a significant
01:53:31 ◼ ► actionable way. What we saw the first time was basically a constant barrage of fire and
01:53:46 ◼ ► was basically a DDoS attack on everyone's attention because there was no like one scandal
01:53:52 ◼ ► for anyone to focus on for more than a few days at a time because after a few days there
01:54:02 ◼ ► kept happening like almost every day. That's going to happen again. We're going to have
01:54:14 ◼ ► after lie, you know, awful unethical or illegal thing he does after an awful unethical legal
01:54:20 ◼ ► thing. It's just going to be a constant parade of those things. That's how he operates and
01:54:31 ◼ ► how you're going to explain to your kids that this person can, you know, commit literal
01:54:42 ◼ ► pay for their, they often don't pay consequences for their actions. Like that's just the
01:54:50 ◼ ► with a lot of very powerful friends and an important lesson to learn is that those people
01:55:03 ◼ ► hold them to those standards. So they like, Republicans do not care what their candidates
01:55:14 ◼ ► above all else, above morals, above religion, above legal, like the laws, certainly above
01:55:44 ◼ ► him even though he lied 14 times in the appearance he made or whatever." No one who is voting
01:55:57 ◼ ► a worldview. Like, they are voting for a worldview. Now, they have been convinced that their worldview
01:56:05 ◼ ► is the correct one. And everyone has different reasons why and most of those reasons, honestly,
01:56:12 ◼ ► are like factually wrong or at least massively distorted. But the reality is they were sold
01:56:28 ◼ ► they knew they were voting for a liar, a fraud, a criminal, a rapist, somebody who did many
01:56:41 ◼ ► I think going to have to cope with the fact that Democrats don't act as a block together.
01:56:48 ◼ ► We never do. And so a huge challenge Democrats always face is how do we get more people who
01:56:56 ◼ ► are already Democrats to vote for our candidate? And that's a problem that the Republicans
01:57:07 ◼ ► that party name because it's all about winning first and anything else is secondary. But
01:57:12 ◼ ► again, that's not how Democrats work. So Democrats need a different strategy. You know,
01:57:21 ◼ ► but we've seen over and over again, you know, how we lose and maybe we can figure out, you
01:57:28 ◼ ► know, new things from there. But, you know, the reality is half the country is not, you
01:57:43 ◼ ► them at all or how we can reach our own people in enough numbers to overcome them. And that's
01:57:48 ◼ ► something to do over the next four years. But in the meantime, you got to find out what
01:58:02 ◼ ► news between 2016 and 2020 because it was just destroying my mental state. It was making
01:58:10 ◼ ► me just angry and stressed and afraid all the time. By the way, you asked earlier, Casey,
01:58:17 ◼ ► why somebody could possibly feel very strongly about Joe Biden. I honestly, I agree. I, you
01:58:23 ◼ ► know, I don't know why people could possibly hate him so much. He seems like a really kind
01:58:29 ◼ ► of neutral person to me. But the reality is that's what they have. People on that political
01:58:35 ◼ ► side of the aisle, they have been fed a constant worldview stream of anger and fear and claims
01:58:45 ◼ ► that make them hate this very neutral, like very milquetoast kind of candidate that makes
01:58:57 ◼ ► like severe worldview. I mean, Trump's entire campaign was basically anger and hate and
01:59:16 ◼ ► awful and it'll get worse if you don't elect me. That was his entire campaign, but that
01:59:28 ◼ ► when we're on the other side of the aisle, but they got there for a reason. And you know,
01:59:34 ◼ ► so anyway, all this is to say, find ways right now, it's a fresh wound. Right now, stop
01:59:41 ◼ ► the bleeding. Find ways to cope. Experience your feelings. If you want to feel a certain
01:59:49 ◼ ► way, let yourself feel that way. If you want to be mad for a while, be mad for a while.
01:59:53 ◼ ► If you want to go into mourning for a while, go into mourning for a while. Figure out what
02:00:02 ◼ ► networks does not help. You'll probably be seeing even less of me on the social networks
02:00:12 ◼ ► help me a lot is I'm a very social person. Being around people helps me a lot. Exercise
02:00:20 ◼ ► and especially spending a lot of time outside. Today I took a big walk. It was a nice weather
02:00:27 ◼ ► day, and I just took a huge walk. Even though I picked the wrong shoes, and they were a
02:00:42 ◼ ► And then finally, I found that when I withdraw from the news cycle and put my time and attention
02:00:59 ◼ ► output, that also helps me a lot. Find whatever that is that helps you. It's not going to
02:01:11 ◼ ► this kind of feeling. But what will probably help, honestly, I think what helps me I think
02:01:35 ◼ ► a starting point. But otherwise, look, we'll get through this. We got through it the first
02:01:46 ◼ ► lot of damage that was done the first time that will not be undone for a long time. That's
02:02:00 ◼ ► the ferry being a boat on Long Island has a giant American flag on the top. They always
02:02:05 ◼ ► do. I was listening to my headphones, listening to music, trying to get my mind off of things
02:02:10 ◼ ► and I happened to look up at the sky and there was the flagpole flying the American flag
02:02:29 ◼ ► America is about democracy. And as I mentioned last time, anything that tries to subvert
02:02:43 ◼ ► this was by everything we know now, it seems like a very clear democratic result that this
02:03:05 ◼ ► has definitely happened right now. And we're going to have to just keep plowing forward
02:03:33 ◼ ► For anyone who's listening to this who is on the opposite side of us and somehow managed
02:03:48 ◼ ► No, they just want to hear the rest of the things you say so they know exactly how much
02:03:55 ◼ ► overblown. You're so sad because your team lost the Super Bowl. Who cares? Get over it.
02:04:04 ◼ ► To try to explain like, you know, we're saying our real feelings here, but you may think
02:04:34 ◼ ► people in your life, you say, like, oh, you're so sad about the president election. Get over
02:04:38 ◼ ► it. Why is it a big deal? Why are you so sad about this? This is worse than it has been
02:05:06 ◼ ► did, and there are many, had sort of minimum baseline level of humanity, and at least an
02:05:18 ◼ ► in the country. And the whole thing with Trump has been is like, there is no floor. He doesn't
02:05:25 ◼ ► know anything. He doesn't want to know anything. He doesn't care about anything. It's like
02:05:34 ◼ ► knows or cares anything about planes, knows what a plane is, has ever flown anything before,
02:05:58 ◼ ► you know, how many millions of our fellow Americans think this is acceptable? And we're
02:06:08 ◼ ► and, you know, and killed and have terrible things happen to them under his administration.
02:06:19 ◼ ► in this country with these millions and millions of people who think this is acceptable for
02:06:33 ◼ ► are on the other side of this? If the Democrats elected somebody who said we should kill all
02:06:38 ◼ ► puppies, it was a big thing on that platform. We should totally kill all puppies. And that
02:06:44 ◼ ► person was a, you know, had murdered their wives and was convicted but got off on a technicality.
02:06:54 ◼ ► not actually killing all puppies, but he thinks we should kill all of them. And we elected
02:07:00 ◼ ► okay that the person who wants to kill puppies and killed his wife should be president? You'd
02:07:04 ◼ ► be like, really? The puppy killing guy? Like, I know he hasn't actually killed any puppies
02:07:15 ◼ ► like, well, forget about the puppy killing. We like the other parts. But like, wouldn't
02:07:19 ◼ ► you be sad thinking that so many of your fellow citizens think that's okay? And I know it's
02:07:26 ◼ ► same type of deal. Like there's just a minimum level of care and humanity and knowledge that
02:07:47 ◼ ► citizens are on board with all that, not on board with it being done, but on board with
02:07:51 ◼ ► saying the guy who says all that, he's my guy. I don't think he's ever going to do that
02:08:02 ◼ ► to know your fellow humans. Forget about citizens. Your fellow humans think this is your guy.
02:08:05 ◼ ► Your fellow humans think this is good. And knowing that you're in the same country with
02:08:23 ◼ ► Bush won, when Reagan won. I was always young then, right? It didn't feel like this at all.
02:08:29 ◼ ► This feels different. This feels worse because it is worse. That's why some people in your
02:08:36 ◼ ► life are really sad right now. Maybe they're special snowflakes and they should just get
02:08:40 ◼ ► over it and not be sad or whatever, but it is worse. We feel worse. So whatever I posted
02:08:53 ◼ ► in any other presidential election when quote unquote my person didn't win. This is different.
02:09:15 ◼ ► and broken down so that what was once a functioning society that tried to raise the standard of
02:09:22 ◼ ► living for everybody and do better over time becomes the domain of dictators and warlords
02:09:27 ◼ ► and I mean it happens all the time throughout history. How do these societies end up in
02:09:32 ◼ ► a situation where there's one super powerful person who's oppressing everybody and doing
02:09:37 ◼ ► terrible things and everyone else is suffering? How do you end up in that situation? And the
02:09:41 ◼ ► whole American experiment is to try to design a system where that's harder to do, but people
02:09:45 ◼ ► are constantly trying to find a way to break down that system, to break away all the things
02:09:51 ◼ ► that are keeping us from becoming a lawless, becoming a mad max, right? A warlord state,
02:09:58 ◼ ► right? And we've made progress. If you look at Casey's reading The Power Broker and learning
02:10:03 ◼ ► all about as a side effect Tammany Hall and all the political corruption machines where
02:10:08 ◼ ► politics was just a way of like, it was basically like street gangs essentially. And when you
02:10:12 ◼ ► got elected you gave money and jobs to the people who supported you and graft and bribery,
02:10:18 ◼ ► like that was the system. And that was a bad system. And we had reformers who said, "Hey,
02:10:28 ◼ ► the political machine, it was like organized crime essentially, but that was the system
02:10:31 ◼ ► of government." That's bad because the citizens suffer and it's the same reason having organized
02:10:38 ◼ ► crime families battle each other is bad. Even if they're not killing each other in the street,
02:10:46 ◼ ► else suffers. Let's reform the system. Let's add laws and ethics and try to have a different
02:10:52 ◼ ► way of governing ourselves. It doesn't involve patronage and graft. And that took years and
02:10:57 ◼ ► years of reformers battling to try to make our system better and go all, that's the example
02:11:03 ◼ ► off the top of my head because I'm listening to The Power Broker podcast too and I've read
02:11:05 ◼ ► the book several times. But like that, that's the history, not just in America, but over
02:11:11 ◼ ► the entire world. It's difficult to make a governing system that is resistant to people
02:11:18 ◼ ► chipping it away. And if you don't constantly resist that, you end up with a small number
02:11:24 ◼ ► of very wealthy, very powerful people living really great lives and everyone else suffering.
02:11:29 ◼ ► And the American system is currently in a regression where we had all these things that
02:11:35 ◼ ► we're trying to be sort of bulwarks against that terrible thing happening that are being
02:11:40 ◼ ► eaten away slowly but surely. Citizens United, all the Supreme Court justices letting the
02:11:50 ◼ ► Roe v. Wade, installing judges who are loyal to Trump instead of the law. All the checks
02:11:56 ◼ ► and balances that we had are being chipped away in service of bringing us back to essentially
02:12:00 ◼ ► Mad Max and warlords, which by the way is not a good system of government for the general
02:12:04 ◼ ► citizens. It's that whole thought experiment of like, if you pick a time in history that
02:12:13 ◼ ► you want to travel, you have a time machine, you can travel back in time to any point in
02:12:29 ◼ ► You are just like a Roman slave." Now do you want to go back to the Roman times? Everyone
02:12:34 ◼ ► wants to be in whatever time in history they glorify, assuming they'll be at the top of
02:12:38 ◼ ► the hierarchy, right? An actual good functioning society is one where you would say, "Yes,
02:12:54 ◼ ► the upper class." And in America, we are unfortunately going in the other direction where we are
02:13:03 ◼ ► of making life better for a small number of people while everyone else suffers. And part
02:13:08 ◼ ► of that is convincing most of the population to vote for you to do that by feeding them
02:13:24 ◼ ► political position, I think of the concept of trying to, speaking of going back in time,
02:13:33 ◼ ► women should have the right to vote. I don't think, if you really want to understand another
02:13:38 ◼ ► depressing thing that people are upset about, do you think you could go and convince somebody
02:13:47 ◼ ► that women should have the right to vote in the 1800s? How difficult would that be? Presumably
02:13:51 ◼ ► you believe it. You're a modern person and you're like, "Of course women should have the right to vote. It's stupid."
02:13:54 ◼ ► Now go back in time to the 1800s and try to convince literally one person that that should
02:13:58 ◼ ► be true. And everything you say, they will have a comeback to and your brain will explode
02:14:05 ◼ ► and you're like, "But, but…" and they'll be like, "It's ridiculous. Women should vote. What's next? Dogs voting?
02:14:09 ◼ ► It doesn't make any sense." That's how a lot of us feel trying to say, "Maybe don't vote
02:14:20 ◼ ► the same way that trying to convince someone in the 1800s that women should vote would explode.
02:14:23 ◼ ► There's nothing you can say to convince them. They have a completely sealed, completely logical,
02:14:29 ◼ ► completely sensible, functioning, like Margo said, worldview that does not include the idea of women voting.
02:14:43 ◼ ► And these days I often think that we would never get a constitutional amendment to give rights to
02:14:49 ◼ ► a minority group just because our current system of government has been so degraded that that will
02:14:54 ◼ ► literally never happen because as long as one side doesn't like it, it's never going to happen.
02:14:58 ◼ ► So, anyway, I've rambled on too long. I just wanted to explain, try to explain to the three people still listening,
02:15:05 ◼ ► why people you know might be sad in a way that doesn't make sense to you and seems dumb.
02:15:10 ◼ ► I understand why it seems dumb, but I want you to know that it's not just people overreacting
02:15:15 ◼ ► or being overly dramatic. For those of us on this side of the aisle, the two Trump elections feel different.