00:00:43 ◼ ► Probably not, and if you would... and I haven't revealed the area code specifically to make it slightly more obscure for people,
00:00:53 ◼ ► My parents don't have that number. My mom's number is a cell phone that she got when they moved into a motor home,
00:00:59 ◼ ► because back then, number portability wasn't a thing, and when I was given my first corporate cell phone,
00:01:05 ◼ ► whenever even that was, I assume at IDG, who knew that the number that they were assigning me randomly at that time
00:01:42 ◼ ► I want a little more cushion than bare feet, so unless it's really hot, I wear socks a lot.
00:01:48 ◼ ► In the winter, and we're not a shoes-off house, so I will also just leave my shoes on sometimes
00:01:56 ◼ ► for logistical reasons, and then my other answer is that I've got these slippers that you told me about.
00:02:21 ◼ ► I used to wear slippers that were like little sheepskin slippers that were really, really nice,
00:02:28 ◼ ► but I wore them so much that they fell apart, and it was very hard to find a replacement.
00:02:33 ◼ ► And all the replacements had soles, like flat soles, instead of it just being a soft bottom, which I didn't like.
00:02:41 ◼ ► But these slippers, and you're going to have to put a link in the show notes to these slippers now,
00:02:47 ◼ ► they are nice, and even though they've got flat soles, they're different because they're slip-ons and all of that.
00:03:01 ◼ ► These have the rubber tips, and they're comfy, so I wear those, and especially I wear those to...
00:03:08 ◼ ► For me, a lot of it is temperature regulations, like in the winter, and it's cold and damp sometimes in my house,
00:03:14 ◼ ► and my feet get cold sometimes, especially if I'm just sitting at my desk, my feet get cold.
00:03:18 ◼ ► So it's nice, like I have them on right now, because I was feeling like it's a little cooler in here than usual,
00:03:23 ◼ ► and my feet are cold, and so why don't I get the slippers out, which I haven't worn in a while.
00:03:34 ◼ ► Always Mojave. I'm wearing Mojave's now in the studio, and I wear Mojave's at home too.
00:03:41 ◼ ► I actually have two pairs of slippers at the studio. So I had an original pair that I bought when I first moved into the studio here,
00:03:54 ◼ ► and I think it's because when I'm sitting at the desk recording, I kind of kick my feet on the ground in a way that I don't...
00:04:01 ◼ ► I move a lot. Anybody that watches the video knows this. I fidget constantly when I'm recording.
00:04:06 ◼ ► I don't know what it is that makes me do that, but I do, and so they were wearing away a little.
00:04:10 ◼ ► So then I was going to buy a new pair, and then saw that Mojave's now make these ones where the rubber goes over the toe, so that wouldn't happen.
00:04:17 ◼ ► So now I have my in the studio pair, and then I also have my like going to the bathroom pair,
00:04:25 ◼ ► because I don't have a bathroom in my studio. I have to go out or like going to fill up my water bottle or whatever.
00:04:30 ◼ ► So I put those ones on to leave, and then I have my good ones for when I'm here. So yeah, lots of slippers.
00:04:36 ◼ ► Oh wow, this is... I just want to say, you are... when you come in to work and you've got slippers to put on there,
00:04:49 ◼ ► Yeah, well that's what I was going to say, is your next thing is that you need to take off your jacket or whatever else you're wearing and put on a nice cardigan.
00:04:55 ◼ ► I actually do do that sometimes, like when it's cold in up here. I have hoodies that are just studio hoodies,
00:05:01 ◼ ► and so like I'll take off whatever I'm wearing and put on the studio hoodie, which could either be a cortex hoodie or an upgrade hoodie, depending on how cold it is.
00:05:22 ◼ ► I really like and I subscribe to the Awesome Socks Club, which is from Hank and John Green,
00:05:29 ◼ ► and I'll put a link to that in the show notes too. They have really weird and fun socks.
00:05:52 ◼ ► and now they seem to have decided that they don't like stripes anymore, and it makes me sad.
00:06:08 ◼ ► So I'm a big fan of finding non-generic socks that come in interesting patterns and stripeys
00:06:36 ◼ ► Lauren, and sometimes a sponsor, Lauren and Julian both love, love, love the Bomba Socks.
00:08:37 ◼ ► which makes sense in context and otherwise does not. Anyway, I hope people listen if they haven't.
00:08:51 ◼ ► This is a quote from MacRumors, which I believe was from Apple, saying, "Users will see fewer
00:08:56 ◼ ► dialogues if they regularly use apps in which they have already acknowledged and accepted the risks."
00:09:17 ◼ ► my understanding is that there's some degree of kicking the can down the road here where
00:09:21 ◼ ► it's like the timer starts, and then you launch it, and it goes, all right, and it resets the
00:09:27 ◼ ► timer. And I don't know if there's ultimately a non-resettable extension of that. I don't know
00:09:33 ◼ ► the details, and it's very hard to tell because this is all about letting things happen over time.
00:09:37 ◼ ► But better, it's a little bit silly, right, that we are at this point. But what it suggests,
00:09:43 ◼ ► truthfully, is that Apple built a new thing and said, this is the new thing, everybody needs to
00:09:48 ◼ ► do it, and we're going to deprecate the old thing and throw up a thing that yells at users because
00:09:52 ◼ ► their developer did something, which is always a bad idea. Throw the developer under the bus, right?
00:09:57 ◼ ► But then they got feedback, which is like, yeah, but you made this decision in error because there's
00:10:04 ◼ ► actually a problem. There's a whole bunch of apps that people use that don't fit into your solution.
00:10:16 ◼ ► forget about it. They said, no, the reasons we're going ahead with this, but since we didn't take
00:10:21 ◼ ► these other things into account, let's mitigate that for now. And the next step is they need to
00:10:27 ◼ ► adjust their trajectory with these features to get those other things to work in a way that works for
00:10:33 ◼ ► users, works for developers, and works for Apple security people. So it's not great because it's
00:10:39 ◼ ► a sign that they weren't paying attention to some of these details early enough and didn't think
00:10:43 ◼ ► them through, but it's good in that they seem to have listened to the criticism. And that's good
00:10:48 ◼ ► for users who have a lot of apps that use these screen recording permissions to do things that
00:10:54 ◼ ► are not sharing windows over Zoom. And so it's better, not ideal and kind of ridiculous that we
00:11:03 ◼ ► got to this point, but, um, at least this happened. I mean, this is, as you say, right? Like if you're
00:11:09 ◼ ► going to, I actually think this is a really good system for dealing with this, like being smart
00:11:15 ◼ ► about what I'm doing. Uh, again, we'll see how it goes, right? Yeah. I wanted to mention something
00:11:22 ◼ ► that I've been really enjoying. Um, just a little change that I noticed with my AirPods Pro. This
00:11:27 ◼ ► either happened in iOS 18 or maybe it's in 18.1. I'm not sure exactly when. Um, but I have noticed
00:11:39 ◼ ► if I'm listening to a podcast and I use a hand dryer, the audio level goes up immediately.
00:11:46 ◼ ► Um, like I've noticed something, something has happened at least with my specific setup in that
00:11:54 ◼ ► the, the kind of what it's supposed to be doing, like increasing the volume when it hears loud
00:11:59 ◼ ► noises just in general, that has been significantly better for me since, uh, I was 18. So I'm really
00:12:06 ◼ ► happy about that. Like it was always pretty good, but now I'm now it's really good. And I think
00:12:11 ◼ ► that's great. Yeah. Um, I wanted to do a little while we're on this subject, I wanted to do a
00:12:16 ◼ ► little follow up, a little follow out rather follow out because there are ATP has been talking about
00:12:25 ◼ ► this a little bit and I've seen it in other places too. I don't want to just say it's ATP,
00:12:29 ◼ ► but I've discovered that I seem to not be looking at the, the, um, different modes of noise canceling
00:12:37 ◼ ► in AirPods Pro the same way other people do. Okay. And I, I'm trying to phrase it that way because
00:12:43 ◼ ► maybe it's me, maybe it's not them, but I use AirPods Pro 2 every day to walk the dog. It's
00:12:51 ◼ ► just me and the dog. And so I've had a chance to try this out. And I, I will admit it is in my
00:12:57 ◼ ► noise, neighborhood noise profile, right? I've got a busy road, a couple blocks away and a freeway
00:13:05 ◼ ► about like five blocks away. And so there's a, there's some background noise as well as busy
00:13:10 ◼ ► road noise at different points in the walk and another points in the walk. It's quieter.
00:13:14 ◼ ► And then I've got cars, you know, I'm, I'm walking on streets, so there are cars going by. There's
00:13:19 ◼ ► a school in the back of my neighborhood. So there are people driving back in the back streets where
00:13:22 ◼ ► I walk the dog to get to the school. So there's some traffic. Anyway, I feel like for what it's
00:13:29 ◼ ► worth, take us for what it's worth. There, there are these three modes that seem to be confusing
00:13:33 ◼ ► people. There's transparency, adaptive, which is new and, and noise cancellation. And the part that
00:13:41 ◼ ► made me wonder if I was going nuts was Casey Liss saying, friend of the show, good friend of the
00:13:50 ◼ ► show, friend of the show, saying he tried to use adaptive mode to mow the lawn. And I just thought,
00:13:58 ◼ ► no, Casey. No, you wouldn't do that. Mowing the lawn is noisy. Put it in noise canceling mode.
00:14:04 ◼ ► Yeah. Adaptive is not that good, right? I don't think it's made for that. So, so here's, here's
00:14:09 ◼ ► how I view it. And maybe this is not how Apple views it, although I think it is, but maybe it's
00:14:14 ◼ ► not. Transparency and noise canceling. The idea there was it's a quick toggle since they've got
00:14:19 ◼ ► microphones on it. They've got a very clever quick toggle. If you're concerned about being able to
00:14:24 ◼ ► hear the world around you while you've got your AirPods in, you put it in transparency mode. And
00:14:28 ◼ ► I know there are people like Steven Hackett who just, that's not good enough. I used to walk down
00:14:38 ◼ ► At one point I actually bought a little box that the Shore made that was like in line with a little
00:14:43 ◼ ► microphone to let you let in some of the noise from outside. But really practically it was too
00:14:53 ◼ ► That's exactly what it was. So for me, AirPods Pro and AirPods in my ears, I feel like they let in so
00:15:03 ◼ ► much audio compared to the in-ear headphones. Okay. So transparency mode is very clever though,
00:15:09 ◼ ► because it lets that stuff go through, which is why I don't really understand Steven not having
00:15:13 ◼ ► one of his AirPods in because I feel like when you've got AirPods in in transparency mode,
00:15:19 ◼ ► unless your stuff is turned up too high or whatever, like you can hear everything. And if you
00:15:23 ◼ ► pause your audio, you can hear everything. It's like being, you know, with nothing in your ears.
00:15:30 ◼ ► That's what transparency is. It's Apple trying to simulate all the audio it's blocking. It's
00:15:41 ◼ ► canceling is we're going to listen to every noise out there in the world and we're going to nullify
00:15:45 ◼ ► it so that you can't hear any of it. And it works pretty well. Not perfectly, obviously,
00:15:49 ◼ ► but pretty well. I believe adaptive is what Apple would like transparency to be. I believe Apple
00:16:01 ◼ ► thinks that adaptive is transparency 2.0. 100%. Yes. Because what adaptive is trying to do is let
00:16:10 ◼ ► through variable noises like a car going by, but smooth out. So in my neighborhood, right,
00:16:18 ◼ ► adaptive takes the freeway hum away because the freeway hum is just a background, you know,
00:16:26 ◼ ► broadband noise. It has no information. It's just a noise in the background that's meaningless
00:16:33 ◼ ► and it takes it out and it's great and it allows more clarity in what I'm listening to.
00:16:40 ◼ ► Whereas transparency lets it through. But when I'm walking and everybody's going to be different,
00:16:44 ◼ ► but when I'm walking with the dog on the streets using adaptive mode, I can hear every car coming
00:16:50 ◼ ► from behind me before it passes me by. I know where all the cars are. I can hear clearly every
00:16:58 ◼ ► kind of random noise that are the noises that I need to hear to be safe. That's why I love
00:17:05 ◼ ► adaptive mode and why when I walk the dog 100%, well no, 98% of the time I'm in adaptive mode.
00:17:12 ◼ ► The other 2% is I'm not on a busy street and there's like a guy with a weed whacker or a guy
00:17:24 ◼ ► with a blower or something like that where there's like noise, like loud noise or there's a bulldozer
00:17:30 ◼ ► or there's a, you know, anything like that. Then I will put it in noise canceling and go past them
00:17:35 ◼ ► and then go back into adaptive. I think adaptive is the best, but the way to think about it is
00:17:40 ◼ ► it's transparency but better because there's some noises in transparency that you don't need to hear
00:17:46 ◼ ► because they're not meaningful. And if the reason that you're letting noise in to your AirPods is to
00:17:51 ◼ ► keep you safe and to hear the world around you, then that's why I think adaptive. I think Apple
00:17:58 ◼ ► nailed it because it gives me everything I need to hear and nothing I don't. And like thumbs up,
00:18:04 ◼ ► that is how that's supposed to work. So I would never use it to mow the lawn. Lawn mowing is a
00:18:09 ◼ ► noise canceling experience. Blowing leaves off of my patio is a noise canceling experience.
00:18:15 ◼ ► But adaptive is great for walking the dog outside. I have my AirPods Pro in adaptive mode as the
00:18:23 ◼ ► default. I never use transparency mode. And then I use noise cancellation for when I'm specifically
00:18:29 ◼ ► trying to get rid of the most amount of noise. So for example, when I'm cooking, we have a hob
00:18:37 ◼ ► fan, like a hood fan. I don't like that noise, so I go into noise canceling and it cuts it out.
00:18:43 ◼ ► No, I cook with noise canceling on because I don't need to hear. I'm not the kind of person
00:18:51 ◼ ► who cooks meals who's like, "Oh, the nature of the sizzle from the pan will tell me." It's like,
00:18:57 ◼ ► no, it's not. I just need to chop some onions and have the fan going and all of those things.
00:19:02 ◼ ► Yeah, absolutely. So anyway, use it how you like it. But the goal of adaptive is to be a better
00:19:09 ◼ ► transparency that it makes it a more pleasant experience to listen to whatever audio you're
00:19:14 ◼ ► listening to while still letting through what's important. That's the whole idea there for what
00:19:19 ◼ ► it's worth. I agree. Don't mow your lawn with it, Casey. Come on. No. Give it a go. You see what
00:19:25 ◼ ► happens, but I wouldn't expect that to be what you... It's not great. It's not going to do the job.
00:19:29 ◼ ► No. I also use conversational awareness to just put that out there. Yeah, I can't do that. We
00:19:37 ◼ ► talked about this on the show before, but I can't do that because I am giving my dog feedback and it
00:19:42 ◼ ► will lower the volume and stuff every time because I'm telling the dog to go... Because she does
00:19:49 ◼ ► things like we come up to a curb and she's supposed to stop. And then I say, "Okay." And then she
00:19:56 ◼ ► crosses the street. And every time I do that, not to mention that her name is Maisie. And if I say
00:20:01 ◼ ► Maisie a certain way, the vowel sounds sound like the name of a certain personal assistant. Maisie
00:20:09 ◼ ► and H-E-Y-S-I-R-I are very similar. And sometimes that triggers something too, which is also bad.
00:20:18 ◼ ► So anyway, yeah, I don't use that. I wish I could because conversational awareness is very clever,
00:20:23 ◼ ► but it doesn't know that I'm talking to a dog. I want to give Apple a challenge. I want to give
00:20:28 ◼ ► the AirPods team a challenge. Okay. Conversational awareness that knows I'm singing. Oh. Right? Like
00:20:37 ◼ ► if I'm wearing my AirPods Pro, I can't sing along to what I'm listening to. Because it dips the
00:20:45 ◼ ► volume. Because it dips the volume and pulls it. That's not what I thought you were going for.
00:20:49 ◼ ► Because I thought you were going for what my challenge is. Here's my challenge to Apple.
00:20:53 ◼ ► Now that we praise them for adaptive, my challenge is conversational awareness should be about
00:21:04 ◼ ► and not worry about it because I can hear me talk. It should detect when someone else talks
00:21:12 ◼ ► in a way that's very clever. I know that's hard, but like in a way that's very clever. Like somebody
00:21:17 ◼ ► else directly nearby who is talking and maybe it's after I've said something, there's a way
00:21:24 ◼ ► to trigger it. But that's what I would like because if I'm just muttering to myself or talking to my
00:21:29 ◼ ► dog or singing along, that's not a conversation. So you need to be more aware that it's a dialogue
00:21:35 ◼ ► and there are other voices present. And then you're like, oh, your little machine learning
00:21:39 ◼ ► algorithm says, oh, there's people around. I'm not sure how it works because like, for example,
00:21:43 ◼ ► sometimes, you know, if I have my AirPods in and I'm brushing my teeth, that can actually lower
00:21:49 ◼ ► the volume. So I'm not sure if it's even, I mean, I don't know. I'm not sure it's actually listening
00:21:59 ◼ ► toothbrush? And you know what? That is a really good point. Brushing your teeth, you're really
00:22:04 ◼ ► just having a conversation with your teeth if you think about it. That's right. It makes a lot of
00:22:09 ◼ ► sense. Yeah, boy, this episode, we haven't even come to the first break yet. My word. This is an
00:22:15 ◼ ► award-winning segment right here. This segment alone would be enough, but no, there's a whole
00:22:19 ◼ ► other podcast to come. We haven't even started yet. No. Next week, the value. Next week, we're
00:22:26 ◼ ► doing a presumptive draft for an October Apple event. We expect there's going to be one. Yeah.
00:22:32 ◼ ► So next week, we're going to do the draft. I mean, it's possible that by the next episode,
00:22:37 ◼ ► we know there's going to be an event anyway. But even if we don't know, we're drafting next week.
00:22:41 ◼ ► Yeah. So that's the idea is that we think there's probably something the week of the 28th. And so
00:22:46 ◼ ► we're just going to go ahead next week and do this. And there are still a couple of ways where
00:22:50 ◼ ► this could trip us up if they decide they're going to do it next week. And they tell us tomorrow,
00:22:54 ◼ ► we might have to do an emergency draft episode. We'll figure it out. But like, I think we've done
00:23:00 ◼ ► this in the past. Actually, if I had thought about this a little earlier, we would have done
00:23:03 ◼ ► it this week because I think that would have been fine, but we didn't have enough time to plan it
00:23:07 ◼ ► that way. But I don't mind. We've been successful so far. In fact, you could argue that doing it a
00:23:12 ◼ ► little bit in advance is better because there's a little more mystery in the draft. So we're going
00:23:19 ◼ ► to do it next week regardless. And I'm looking forward to it. That'll be a fun one. So I'll get
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00:26:16 ◼ ► Remember roundup time, Jason Snow. Saddle up, giddy up. Mark Gurman is reporting that Dan Riccio,
00:26:22 ◼ ► Apple's previous senior vice president of hardware has retired. So a bit of background, Riccio
00:26:30 ◼ ► had been a SVP of hardware for a long time and we'd seen him in tons of iPhone videos, you know,
00:26:36 ◼ ► like the Johnny Ive iPhone videos and lots of other products. He stepped down as senior vice
00:26:41 ◼ ► president of hardware in 2021 and John Ternus took the role since this time. And it was announced
00:26:47 ◼ ► that he was going to be moving to quote a new project that reported directly to Tim. And it
00:26:51 ◼ ► was later learned that this was the Vision Pro. So he was kind of like overseeing the Vision Pro.
00:27:03 ◼ ► Rockwell on a day to day basis reports to John Ternus. So it's kind of like left the special
00:27:09 ◼ ► projects area and it's just part of the overall hardware stuff. Interestingly, the way this
00:27:17 ◼ ► information was found out was Dan Riccio divulged it during a like a presentation that he was making
00:27:24 ◼ ► to an event at MIT. And he was just like, I'm retired and I'm leaving on Friday. That was last
00:27:31 ◼ ► week. So why not? I mean, I love it. Like the guys just live in his life. Like this is kind of how I
00:27:36 ◼ ► believe these should be able to live their lives rather than pretending it's all a secret all the
00:27:40 ◼ ► time. We've talked about this before and I think it's one of my favorite things that we talk about
00:27:45 ◼ ► because there's not a lot of conversation about that in our sphere, which is how Apple deals with
00:27:50 ◼ ► not just things like succession planning, but like dealing with corporate executives who've been
00:27:55 ◼ ► there a long time and have been at a very senior level and it had a lot of stock options and it
00:27:59 ◼ ► basically made so much money that they don't need to work anymore. And what do you do with them? And
00:28:06 ◼ ► I think there's a few, I mean, Bob Mansfield, he retired and then they called them back and
00:28:10 ◼ ► he went back for a little while and then he retired again. Dan Riccio, I think you could
00:28:16 ◼ ► really argue that when he was no longer SVP of hardware, that was part of the path to retirement,
00:28:22 ◼ ► but they're like, no, no, no, don't leave yet, Dan. We've got a problem we'd like you to work on.
00:28:26 ◼ ► Can you do this vision pro thing for a little while and then retire? And he's like, sure.
00:28:34 ◼ ► I'll start building the retirement home now. It's what Johnny did too, right? So like they,
00:28:38 ◼ ► they gave him that new role, which really looked like a big promotion, but it was actually
00:28:44 ◼ ► to give him more freedom in his life and not have to be so hands on. Slowly kind of uncouple from
00:28:50 ◼ ► Apple. Cause you get the sense too, that some of this stuff it's like really high pressure and it's
00:28:54 ◼ ► very intense. And then you get to a point where like, I can't do this intensity anymore. And
00:28:58 ◼ ► that's when I think very intelligently for a company that's got a lot of money, you should
00:29:01 ◼ ► do this, which is you main, like it's, it's a senior executive retention program essentially.
00:29:07 ◼ ► And the idea there is look, you can step off the grind that step off the bus of all of this stuff.
00:29:14 ◼ ► That's super intense as SVP hardware, but we want to keep your mind around. So can we give you kind
00:29:19 ◼ ► of like a special project, a little bit less to do. And I know that sometimes that's perceived
00:29:28 ◼ ► not do anything, but I don't, I don't think that's the intent cause they could just leave then if
00:29:31 ◼ ► that's what they wanted to, but it's more like you can wind down, but we can still tab your expertise.
00:29:37 ◼ ► Maybe I give you a project to work on. Maybe we just keep you around to answer, answer questions
00:29:43 ◼ ► and work on little things and all that. But it's like a, it's, it's a way out the door to
00:29:47 ◼ ► retirement. That is not peak. Everything's super intense. And then boom, it's done. And we never
00:29:54 ◼ ► hear from you again because those people are really valuable. But, but, but the truth is
00:29:59 ◼ ► beyond a certain point, you can't retain them. At least you can't do anything to retain them.
00:30:05 ◼ ► You can retain them. Phil Schiller, it feels like to me is never going to leave Apple. Like they're
00:30:11 ◼ ► going to have to drag him out. Right. Like, but, and he doesn't need the money as far as I can tell
00:30:18 ◼ ► Phil Schiller doing great. He's been, he's been there longer than anybody else except Chris
00:30:23 ◼ ► Espinosa. And if you like as a senior exec, he's been there the longest and he's like an Apple
00:30:28 ◼ ► fellow now, but it's still actively involved in all sorts of parts of what Apple is doing. So like,
00:30:33 ◼ ► but, but this is my point is he wants to be there, otherwise he wouldn't be there. So if you can find
00:30:38 ◼ ► some way to keep somebody who's great around in some role where they want to be there. Great.
00:30:42 ◼ ► But ultimately these people have made so much money that if they want to go, you kind of can't
00:30:48 ◼ ► keep them. Yeah. So you make it easy. It's a, and it's a brain drain, right? So you try to make it
00:30:55 ◼ ► easy on them to stay as long as they're willing to. And then at some point they will still walk
00:31:01 ◼ ► away, but at least you got to disengage and they got to spread, you know, share their knowledge
00:31:05 ◼ ► with others. Cause there's that dangerous moment when like, Oh no, Dan Riccio is the only person
00:31:10 ◼ ► who knows how to do X. It gives them that kind of path to help the people that are going to come up
00:31:15 ◼ ► and replace him. I've told you the story before, but, um, really quickly, my uncle was the SVP of
00:31:22 ◼ ► HR for a fortune 500 company. And at one point his accountant or his financial planner basically
00:31:28 ◼ ► said to him, given your pension system and all of that, uh, you, every year you stay after this year,
00:31:33 ◼ ► you are going to lose money. So he retired and like six months later, the company came to him
00:31:41 ◼ ► and said, can we hire you as a consultant? Cause we don't know how to do these union negotiations.
00:31:46 ◼ ► And he's like, sure. And they paid him more money plus his retirement as a consultant. But like,
00:31:51 ◼ ► that's, it's that thing is you don't want to get, you don't want to have to make that call, right?
00:31:55 ◼ ► Or big Bob Mansfield, please come back. Right? Like, so you do this, you do this kind of glide
00:32:01 ◼ ► path to retirement. I think it's really interesting. I think it's, again, we don't know the
00:32:05 ◼ ► details from the outside, but I think in general, it's really smart for Apple to do this because
00:32:09 ◼ ► first off they can afford it. And second off, this is a real problem for them. They made a lot of
00:32:13 ◼ ► their senior people very, very rich and those people don't need to work anymore. And so what
00:32:19 ◼ ► do you do? You want to develop the next generation of talent, but you also don't want to lose the
00:32:23 ◼ ► people who have this, um, important knowledge. And Apple is unlike, you know, unlike many other
00:32:28 ◼ ► companies, Apple doesn't do a lot of hiring from outside because their culture is so different.
00:32:32 ◼ ► And so you really need to bring people up from within and retain those senior people as long as
00:32:37 ◼ ► you can. So it's really, I mean, it's really interesting. But then at the same time, you can't
00:32:41 ◼ ► keep these people forever because then you can't lose the people that would take those roles
00:32:46 ◼ ► because they will go somewhere else. And so like you have to encourage. And I think, I think what
00:32:51 ◼ ► Tim Cook has actually started to do, I wouldn't be surprised if he is encouraging his senior leaders
00:32:56 ◼ ► to consider these changes because it's happening more and more to go on the glide path. Yeah. Yeah.
00:33:01 ◼ ► No, there's definitely been a lot of retirements lady lately. And I think you're right. I think
00:33:04 ◼ ► that the other part of this is you identify stars that are up and coming within your company.
00:33:09 ◼ ► And you say, and this, I mean, this happens when I was a manager. I mean, you, you identify the stars,
00:33:16 ◼ ► you want to identify the talent, the ones you don't want to lose and the ones that you want
00:33:19 ◼ ► to bring along and give experience to. And, you know, I suspect that is what, you know,
00:33:23 ◼ ► what's been going on with John Ternus as Mark Gurman is reporting is that they think he's a
00:33:26 ◼ ► rising star and they're trying to give him a lot of seasoning regardless of where, you know,
00:33:30 ◼ ► if he ends up as CEO or something else like that, that's what goes on. And that's, that's developing
00:33:35 ◼ ► your people. It's great. But there does come a moment where you say, we got this guy hanging on
00:33:39 ◼ ► and our star needs a new challenge. And that may be the kind that, that may be when you go
00:33:46 ◼ ► to Dan Riccio and say, Dan, we're really, you know, we really need to bump John up. And, you
00:33:53 ◼ ► know, and he may or may not express an interest in retirement, but you're like, let's, you know,
00:33:58 ◼ ► you, you've been here a long time. You're not going to stay here very much longer. You can
00:34:02 ◼ ► stay as long as you want, but we want to put Ternus in this role so that he can, you know,
00:34:06 ◼ ► he can get that. And, and, and so, yeah, some of it could be a little, I mean, you should be active
00:34:12 ◼ ► because I think that there would otherwise be a tendency for somebody to just stay in their role,
00:34:16 ◼ ► even as they're disengaging and getting ready to retire and all of that. And then, yeah, if I'm
00:34:21 ◼ ► Apple and if I'm, I'm Deirdre O'Brien and if I'm Tim Cook, I'm looking at that and saying,
00:34:33 ◼ ► I want to put them in a special magic bin of people that are still here and still working on stuff,
00:34:41 ◼ ► but are not at that pinnacle because the pinnacle needs to be somebody who's a hundred percent
00:34:47 ◼ ► engaged. And I do believe that it's true that you get to a point when you start to think about
00:34:52 ◼ ► retirement, you are not probably a hundred percent engaged at that point. So part of the job here is
00:34:57 ◼ ► to identify those people and say, we don't want you to leave, stay as long as you like, but we
00:35:02 ◼ ► want to give you the opportunity to disengage a little bit and give an up and coming star their
00:35:07 ◼ ► chance to grow into this job. And I mean, different people will react differently to that and all of
00:35:12 ◼ ► that. That's the hard thing about managing people, but I think it's, Apple's got an extra special
00:35:16 ◼ ► challenge because they can't really recruit from the outside. And they've got all these people
00:35:20 ◼ ► who've been made very, very rich by this where if they really just want to go sit on a beach
00:35:24 ◼ ► somewhere in Hawaii for the rest of their lives, they can do that. No problem. So what, you know,
00:35:33 ◼ ► how it's, I don't envy them. This is really tough stuff and it's tougher for Apple than almost
00:35:38 ◼ ► anybody else. I think it is a testament to Tim Cook that these people stay around, honestly.
00:35:44 ◼ ► I think, and the Apple culture in general too. I think that, look Schiller, he believes in it,
00:35:52 ◼ ► right? Phil Schiller, I really, I don't, I've not seen into his finances, but given some of his
00:35:58 ◼ ► his stuff, like his work at, what is it? Boston college, Boston university. I can't forgive me,
00:36:05 ◼ ► Phil. I get the sense given how long he's been there that he's probably financially justified,
00:36:11 ◼ ► right? But he stays. The Schiller Institute is at Boston college. Yeah, Boston college. That's
00:36:17 ◼ ► right. Yes. He's got an institute named for him because of his donations, right? He's doing fine,
00:36:22 ◼ ► right? At BC on the trustee board of trustees. So why does he stay? And he stays because he believes
00:36:29 ◼ ► in it. And I think that there's some, it's about the culture. It's about the sort of the mission
00:36:33 ◼ ► of Apple and yeah, and also about leadership. The idea, look, if I was thinking of retiring
00:36:40 ◼ ► and Tim Cook came to me and said, I know you can retire, but what if we make it easier on you,
00:36:47 ◼ ► but we keep you around. Cause we really like, what can we do to make this something that you
00:36:51 ◼ ► want to do for another five years? Like that there are circumstances where the answer is
00:36:58 ◼ ► there's literally nothing you can do. Goodbye. Thank you. It's been great. I'm going to Hanalei
00:37:03 ◼ ► and I'm going to go to the beach and do some boogie boarding and goodbye. Right? Like that is
00:37:15 ◼ ► him after he committed a multi-year total gift of $25 million. Yeah. So I think he's got more than
00:37:22 ◼ ► that. I think he's got a lot more than that. I mean, obviously give all of his money to the,
00:37:29 ◼ ► I don't think he's a billionaire, but I think he's got hundreds of millions of dollars. Yeah,
00:37:38 ◼ ► And the answer is I quit my job and retire. I don't think I would, but some, I understand that
00:37:43 ◼ ► this is the thing. Some people would, but some people wouldn't, some people would be like, well,
00:37:47 ◼ ► no, I, I like my job. I want to keep doing it. It was like, if I got that kind of money,
00:37:52 ◼ ► I would still do some stuff. I would probably not do the 10 different things I do right now.
00:38:06 ◼ ► everybody's different. So it's just, it's, so I look at this and I think this is, this is an
00:38:11 ◼ ► interesting problem that Apple continues to have where they've got senior people that they have to
00:38:15 ◼ ► deal with retention and retirement and all of that. And so we've got the case now where
00:38:19 ◼ ► they brought in Ternus. He stayed on for a while, um, worked on vision pro and is now kind of like
00:38:25 ◼ ► moving away and funding a program at MIT back to another one back to Boston. Uh, and that's,
00:38:33 ◼ ► that's, I mean, congratulations to him. And again, really interesting problem for Apple
00:38:37 ◼ ► to solve in terms of their brain drain. Nine to five Mac is reporting on some potential details
00:38:43 ◼ ► of the upcoming iPhone se four that we spoke about last week based on some early case designs that
00:38:50 ◼ ► are coming out. Uh, very simple stuff. It include would, it would mean if there's to be a belief
00:38:56 ◼ ► that these are correct. The iPhone se four will have a single camera, a physical mute switch,
00:39:00 ◼ ► not an action button and no camera control. Yeah. And no, and there was a rumor about an action
00:39:05 ◼ ► button, but, but now it looks like no action button. And I don't think this is surprising.
00:39:09 ◼ ► I think that like those are all the bells and whistles. You keep all that stuff off. You,
00:39:14 ◼ ► you save a lot, uh, in terms of not having those parts and the whole idea of the se is to save,
00:39:19 ◼ ► but, and besides which they're putting some of their, their, uh, their price and their margin,
00:39:24 ◼ ► presumably into using a more advanced processor and having more RAM so that they can do Apple
00:39:29 ◼ ► intelligence, which I think is a, is probably a given. So there's the, where we say it was the
00:39:33 ◼ ► notch. It's going to have a notch with face ID sensor. So yeah, you'll probably get a action
00:39:45 ◼ ► eventually. Mark Herman has given a roundup in his newsletter power on of the products in
00:39:52 ◼ ► development in Apple's vision group, which is now being overseen by John Ternus. Um, Mark is aware
00:39:59 ◼ ► of four products that this group is working on. Um, this group is now getting some additional
00:40:06 ◼ ► additional focus and attention inside due to what Matt has been up to, which makes sense. Um, and
00:40:13 ◼ ► also he mentioned that like a lot of people moved to this group from the car team and stuff like
00:40:18 ◼ ► that. Like they've, they've moved a lot of engineers around. So the four products that are on deck
00:40:23 ◼ ► include a cheaper vision headset. We have cheaper materials to lower the price, slower processor,
00:40:30 ◼ ► and no eyesight feature. So it removes that OLED display on the front. This is set to launch as
00:40:35 ◼ ► soon as next year, but they're aiming for a $2,000 price tag, which is like, in our notes, I just
00:40:42 ◼ ► wrote LOL, sorry, because it's like people are thinking and hoping that this cheaper vision
00:40:47 ◼ ► headset mean that there it's going to be within a range that you're, you know, you'd be willing to
00:40:52 ◼ ► buy it. But I don't see that. If we consider the current vision pro kind of a developer kit and a
00:40:58 ◼ ► view of the future, but it's just not here yet, which I think is the only way to view it. It's,
00:41:03 ◼ ► it's, you know, it's, that's the only way to view it. It's, it costs too much and it does too little,
00:41:08 ◼ ► even though what it does is amazing. It costs too much and it does too little. I'll never recommend
00:41:12 ◼ ► it for anybody at this point. So getting it down to 2000, first off, I remember when those rumors
00:41:17 ◼ ► of it costing the original one, costing 2000, me saying it's too much. Now here we are where the
00:41:21 ◼ ► cheaper one will cost $2,000. It, yeah, it just, on one level, yes, there's a line in German's piece
00:41:29 ◼ ► that I really liked, which is with the lower price, Apple is expecting unit sales of the device
00:41:33 ◼ ► to be at least double the level of the vision pro, but that's not saying much. And I think that's,
00:41:39 ◼ ► I think that's exactly nailed it, which is one of the things that this will do if we're lamenting
00:41:45 ◼ ► the state of affairs on the vision pro where there aren't that many developers and there aren't that
00:41:48 ◼ ► many users. And it's like, and we know that it's early days, but it's such a high bar taking it
00:41:54 ◼ ► down to $2,000 lowers the bar. It's still a very high bar, but it's a lot lower. And I think if
00:42:01 ◼ ► you're viewing this as a long game, having a cheaper way into this product line in order to
00:42:07 ◼ ► get some more users and also to get some more developers with their hands on it. Great. Like,
00:42:12 ◼ ► I don't think Apple's plan for vision products needs there to be a $500 vision product. I don't,
00:42:22 ◼ ► because I think that they're trying to keep, maintain a level of quality that also keeps your
00:42:27 ◼ ► eye on like the future where this product category is going. At least not yet. Not yet. Right. Well,
00:42:32 ◼ ► that's true. That's true in the long run. Sure. But we're not anywhere close to that. And so people
00:42:37 ◼ ► who want to judge these things based on like that, their regular Apple products, like they're really
00:42:41 ◼ ► not like they're not, they're not even close. The value proposition is not there. So I look at this
00:42:49 ◼ ► and think, great, like it would be better if it was $1,500, obviously it'd be better if it was
00:42:59 ◼ ► content. So they pick up some more users and developers who are more skeptical can actually
00:43:04 ◼ ► get in and have it be a little bit better. I also think that the HomePod thing is happening here.
00:43:09 ◼ ► One of those bullet points you read out is cheaper materials. And it's like, they made a really nice
00:43:14 ◼ ► luxury headset with the Vision Pro, but a lot of that stuff is not necessary. It's nice, but it's
00:43:20 ◼ ► not necessary. And getting the price down is going to be helpful, even though it doesn't solve the
00:43:26 ◼ ► problem. It's a better place to be with a $2,000 headset than a $3,500 headset. Not great, but
00:43:34 ◼ ► better. I'm sure we said this already, but the idea just popped into my head. So I want to reiterate
00:43:38 ◼ ► again, with the Orion, the Metta Orion, there was so much talk from Metta and then just like spoken
00:43:45 ◼ ► about by everyone where they were like, oh, this costs so much money. It costs $10,000 to make it,
00:43:51 ◼ ► not we would sell it for $10,000. It costs $10,000 to make one. It costs so much money that they were
00:43:57 ◼ ► like, we're just not going to do this. We can't do it. I think with the Vision Pro Apple like this
00:44:03 ◼ ► costs so much money, but we're going to do it anyway. The Orion is their vision of the future.
00:44:12 ◼ ► I think the Vision Pro has some of those elements to it, but Apple just decided to get it to the
00:44:19 ◼ ► point where they could just ship it. Ship it, ship the OS. No, everybody knows that's too much money.
00:44:26 ◼ ► Everybody knows that. They know that. That's the problem I have with reporting that's like, oh,
00:44:30 ◼ ► this is a real flop. It's like, if there's anybody at Apple who thought that the $3,500 headset that
00:44:34 ◼ ► doesn't do a whole lot was going to be an enormous hit, those people should be relieved of their
00:44:39 ◼ ► duties because it's a delusion. It's very clear that this is playing by completely different
00:44:43 ◼ ► rules from other Apple products. And that's fine. Also, I'll point out again, Mark Gurman did a
00:44:49 ◼ ► report last January, January of '23, that said Apple also had an AR glasses project like Project
00:44:55 ◼ ► Orion. And they were like, there's no way we can ship this. It will be too expensive and it'll take
00:45:00 ◼ ► too long. And let's do Vision Pro instead, not thinking, oh, Vision Pro is the solution and
00:45:05 ◼ ► people are going to be wearing these down the street, but thinking this gets us a product in
00:45:09 ◼ ► the market that people can start playing with. Maybe we'll figure out killer apps for it. We'll
00:45:13 ◼ ► experiment with content with the idea that in five years, maybe this is more of a thing. And that is,
00:45:20 ◼ ► we have an ask upgrade question that maybe we'll get to this week that's more about this, but it's
00:45:24 ◼ ► that idea of like, well, which is the better approach to not ship something, but show it to
00:45:28 ◼ ► the public and say it's coming or do what Apple did, which is ship something, but not talk about
00:45:33 ◼ ► the other thing that is where they eventually want to go because Apple never talks about
00:45:37 ◼ ► future products. And that's, it's, you know, anyway, it is, it, it, a $2,000 Vision non-pro
00:45:46 ◼ ► would be welcome, I think would be good for what Apple is doing, but is not the solution to the
00:45:54 ◼ ► problem of why are millions of people not buying Vision Pros, I think, nor is it intended to be,
00:45:59 ◼ ► but it's certainly, certainly like Gurman wrote more people, more than double the people who bought
00:46:05 ◼ ► the Vision Pro would buy a cheaper vision. I think that's true, especially if they can come up with
00:46:09 ◼ ► something that's a killer app for it, whether it's entertainment or sports or, you know, whatever.
00:46:17 ◼ ► something that people get really stuck up on and did is that Apple, when they release the product,
00:46:22 ◼ ► they kind of make as much noise as they would any of their other products, right? Like it got the
00:46:28 ◼ ► whole big launch and like, because they actually cannot do it another way. Like they can't. Apple
00:46:34 ◼ ► cannot release a new product and not do the whole song and dance. Like they have to do that. They
00:46:41 ◼ ► put in probably more budget into like the launch marketing for that than they would have any of
00:46:47 ◼ ► their Macs, any of their iPads, and maybe the iPhone. Like they really went heavy on it because
00:46:52 ◼ ► that's just what they have to do no matter what the end result will be because it's who they are,
00:47:11 ◼ ► - Wearing hardware, Meta can't do this, right? It's easier for them to do this because they're
00:47:18 ◼ ► not the same company. Anyway, moving back to this Mark Gurman report, also speaks of a second
00:47:25 ◼ ► generation vision pro that would have a faster processor to be released in 2026 at the earliest.
00:47:33 ◼ ► There is a version of smart glasses in the form of like meta Ray-Bans in there kind of like function
00:47:39 ◼ ► on deck for 2027, which in my opinion is too far. - I agree and I'm a little, I mean, maybe this is
00:47:48 ◼ ► just because this is the Apple process, but like it feels like this is existing tech that they've
00:47:54 ◼ ► got in a lot of ways in terms of cameras and connections to iPhones and AirPods and all of
00:47:59 ◼ ► those things and that creating AirPods that are glasses essentially is what we're saying here,
00:48:05 ◼ ► right? They're AirPods that are glasses. They've got cameras and they've got speakers or bone
00:48:11 ◼ ► conduction or whatever. And you could use a lot of the same techniques that you use for AirPods
00:48:25 ◼ ► - Yeah, because I'm, I mean, I don't know what they're working on, but like for a product of
00:48:31 ◼ ► this class, I'm not sure that they really will produce something that is so mind blowing,
00:48:36 ◼ ► right? That like it's so significantly better than the company that at this point, you know,
00:48:42 ◼ ► with meta would have been doing this for years, right? Like what is the meta Ray-Ban product in
00:48:48 ◼ ► 2027? You know what I mean? Like what have they gotten it to? - If I were a person at Apple who
00:48:55 ◼ ► believed in this product category, which there must be because they're thinking of doing them,
00:48:59 ◼ ► I would say, how can we get a product shipped by the end of next year? And I know that's really
00:49:04 ◼ ► fast, but I would say, what is that product and how can we do it? Because I think they could do
00:49:08 ◼ ► it, but they've got to actually like, they got to do it. They got to try. - 2026 for a pair of
00:49:16 ◼ ► glasses that have decent speakers in them, which they know how to do even that kind of thing from
00:49:23 ◼ ► the ear pods, whatever they're called, the audio pods on the vision pro, right? Like that kind of
00:49:28 ◼ ► thing of like angling it to you with decent cameras in them and connected to your iPhone,
00:49:33 ◼ ► like an Apple watch is like Apple, I know how hard this is. I 100% believe that you have the ability
00:49:40 ◼ ► to do that within the next 18 months. - Yeah, I think they've got the technology to do it. And I
00:49:45 ◼ ► think the danger, and this is a constant danger with modern Apple. And like I said, I think the
00:49:52 ◼ ► home pod showed this. And I think that the vision pro shows this, which is they need to, especially
00:50:00 ◼ ► with new products, they need to be a little more considerate of what the minimum viable product is
00:50:05 ◼ ► and not what the perfect product is. Because when I see we're going to do smart glasses in 2027,
00:50:13 ◼ ► I think you've over-engineered what you think these smart glasses should be. And I'm thinking,
00:50:19 ◼ ► here's what they should be. They should connect to your phone. They should have a camera. They
00:50:24 ◼ ► should have audio output. They kind of like AirPods. Whatever you're working on with the,
00:50:29 ◼ ► we're about to talk about it, all those rumors of cameras on AirPods, it's the same idea.
00:50:38 ◼ ► You make a connection to your phone. It's a peripheral, it's a wearable. You've got all
00:50:43 ◼ ► the pieces here. Don't overthink this. Just ship something and then iterate because iterating is
00:50:50 ◼ ► what you do best. So ship something, don't overthink it. Don't make it over specked and
00:50:56 ◼ ► overpriced. Get something out the door that's, I'm not saying bad, I'm saying something out the door
00:51:01 ◼ ► that's good, but is not the perfect thing. You have a partnership with an optic company now.
00:51:08 ◼ ► You have the pieces in place to do this. You can work with the opticians that you're working with
00:51:14 ◼ ► to create the Vision Pro lenses to help you create lenses for this product. The pieces are there,
00:51:22 ◼ ► you've got to bring it together because Meta are taking this market. This is theirs now.
00:51:28 ◼ ► They own it and it is a cool product. That is a problem. It's not just like this is a nerdy thing.
00:51:37 ◼ ► They have legitimately created a product that people think is cool. If they continue pushing
00:51:43 ◼ ► down that road, that becomes harder and harder to work against. This is an area they should go in.
00:51:50 ◼ ► You mentioned AirPods or cameras, that's another thing for 2027. For both of these products,
00:51:59 ◼ ► where you can point your iPhone and say, "What's this?" Mark says, "The idea is to salvage the
00:52:08 ◼ ► which can scan the environment around a user and supply useful data." I don't really know
00:52:12 ◼ ► what that means, but fine. I don't know because it doesn't seem very intelligent now, but perhaps
00:52:19 ◼ ► that's a thing that's being worked on. Or it's just not exposed. The Vision Pro is aware of so
00:52:26 ◼ ► much stuff that's around us and it's identifying things, but we don't need to know that, but the
00:52:32 ◼ ► hardware knows. What this sounds like though is that Apple is doing the Apple thing where they're
00:52:37 ◼ ► like, "We are thinking of what if there are cameras on AirPods? What if there are glasses? What if you
00:52:42 ◼ ► have a camera that you can point at things and then you've got a device?" I think one of the
00:52:45 ◼ ► challenges too is it's got to be a device that works with your iPhone, which is fine because
00:52:50 ◼ ► that's Apple's primary thing. I don't think it even needs to be as intelligent as an Apple watch.
00:52:55 ◼ ► I think it could really be a connection to an iPhone and it sends the images back to the iPhone
00:53:02 ◼ ► when you ask or when you're taking a picture or whatever. It basically is an iPhone peripheral,
00:53:09 ◼ ► but they've got the pieces. I think that the AirPods with Cameras project is interesting.
00:53:27 ◼ ► this is the point where you, I think, have enough signal of how that product is being received to
00:53:32 ◼ ► say, "This is a thing and we should be there if you're Apple." It sounds like they do think that
00:53:36 ◼ ► they should be there, but I wonder about the urgency of it. I think this is a product that,
00:53:41 ◼ ► first off, Apple should have probably embraced this idea sooner because it's actually a very
00:53:46 ◼ ► good idea. I'm skeptical of how good AirPods with cameras on them are actually going to be at
00:53:51 ◼ ► capturing the world, whereas glasses make sense. I'm not sure I know what that specifically is for,
00:53:59 ◼ ► but this is the thing. How well is the Meta Ray-Ban's doing? I don't know. They're actually
00:54:05 ◼ ► not even saying, but it is a product that is gaining momentum. I think another three years
00:54:13 ◼ ► from now, where are we at that point? Is that then a much harder challenge to fight against?
00:54:22 ◼ ► We'll see. I mean, who knows what the Department of Justice would have to say by 2027, right?
00:54:27 ◼ ► No kidding. Because if something happens there and Apple is forced to open up to peripherals,
00:54:34 ◼ ► which is a specific thing in the Department of Justice case, then where are the Meta Ray-Bans?
00:54:39 ◼ ► If they have the ability to be able to talk more directly via a set of APIs like an Apple Watch can,
00:54:47 ◼ ► then that makes Apple's job significantly harder, right? Because then you haven't even got...
00:54:53 ◼ ► Depending on... Look, this is a lot of pie-in-the-sky thinking here, but if they're not
00:54:59 ◼ ► able to as easily be like, "Well, get the Apple ones because it connects to all your stuff." If
00:55:04 ◼ ► that becomes a harder sell, this is an even more complicated project for them, I think.
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00:57:57 ◼ ► So we spoke about this a little bit last week when it was announced, but Apple have now released
00:58:01 ◼ ► their first short film shot completely for Vision Pro with all of the immersive technology cameras
00:58:10 ◼ ► that they have. There's a pretty cool making of as well that they put on YouTube that I'll put
00:58:15 ◼ ► in the show notes. You watched it and wrote about it last week. I watched it today. I wanted to
00:58:20 ◼ ► watch it before we recorded so it would be freshest in my mind. This is a very, very effective
00:58:27 ◼ ► piece of media. I think so too. I think I was fascinated by like how it was made, but I also
00:58:34 ◼ ► really enjoyed it and at the end I felt like I would watch more of that, right? Like it was,
00:58:40 ◼ ► it was, I did not have the feeling I'm like, "Whew, we got to the end, it's great." It was
00:58:44 ◼ ► more like, "Oh, I could see how there could be another hour of this movie with intense bits that
00:58:49 ◼ ► are set pieces and also character things that are going on." I was not sure what I was thinking it
00:58:56 ◼ ► would be. I wondered if it would be a little more kind of like, "Aha, it's a submarine. Oh,
00:59:01 ◼ ► there's water." Like very kind of like, I don't know, showing off those details of it and it
00:59:06 ◼ ► wasn't. I think it was really well done, really effectively made. One of the things of this type
00:59:11 ◼ ► of technology, and it's the same for all VR stuff, is balancing movement, like how you handle movement,
00:59:20 ◼ ► physical movement through space. Like video games do this in a lot of ways where you're actually
00:59:24 ◼ ► mostly just fixed on a specific spot and you like kind of teleport between place to place. This is a
00:59:30 ◼ ► very hard thing to do to capture motion sickness. And I think everyone that I've heard or seen,
00:59:36 ◼ ► watched it, including me, had at least one point where it was like, "This is an uncomfortable
00:59:41 ◼ ► feeling right now, like a movement." So Edward Berger, the director who did All Quiet on the
00:59:45 ◼ ► Western Front, which is a good movie, he obviously, like I came away with a lot of respect for him
00:59:52 ◼ ► because he obviously has given a lot of thought to how this is different from a regular movie. But
00:59:57 ◼ ► one of the choices he made, and I was surprised, is how do you do camera movement in a format that
01:00:04 ◼ ► you potentially are giving people motion sickness or vertigo or weird feelings when you move the
01:00:10 ◼ ► camera? And he tried a bunch of things. He's got some slow push-ins that I think work really well.
01:00:15 ◼ ► In fact, there's one where it slowly pushes in and turns a little bit. And I was like, "That's fine."
01:00:20 ◼ ► He's got some slow pullbacks that I thought, "That works pretty well." Most of the movie doesn't,
01:00:26 ◼ ► the cameras don't move. He has some setups where it's like one angle and then there's like a
01:00:30 ◼ ► reverse angle, or there's one angle and then you are at a close-up, but you're in the close-up for
01:00:34 ◼ ► again, a long time. They definitely learned the lesson. You can't do quick takes. They have to be
01:00:39 ◼ ► long takes. The amount of time per cut is very high in this movie. And it's fine. He also does
01:00:49 ◼ ► a couple of fast pushes in and fast pulls back. And for me, the fast push in, I was like, "Oh,
01:00:57 ◼ ► we're doing this. Okay." And the fast pull back, I was like, "I don't know." Where he was a little
01:01:04 ◼ ► more aggressive. And I think that's really an interesting data point of like, "Can you move
01:01:07 ◼ ► the camera? I think maybe you can. Can you move it really fast? Maybe you shouldn't? I don't know."
01:01:13 ◼ ► - There is a level where that movement, provided you do it right, and I'm sure there'll be a lot
01:01:20 ◼ ► of people trying to learn how to do this right, where you can instill a feeling in someone,
01:01:25 ◼ ► right? That maybe you want someone, the viewer to feel uneased by what's happening. There's a
01:01:32 ◼ ► real fine line you've got to walk between that and absolute motion sickness. - I would like the
01:01:39 ◼ ► audience to vomit. - But there is, I'm sure, a level, right? Where like, I don't get motion
01:01:46 ◼ ► sickness, but there were parts of it. I've never really suffered from it. There were parts of it.
01:01:50 ◼ ► I was like, "Whoa, I don't know about this." That was part of it. The behind the scenes stuff is
01:01:58 ◼ ► really interesting too. I've got to hand it to Edward Berger because this was an incredibly
01:02:03 ◼ ► difficult job to be given to do this. He is essentially a pioneer. Nobody's done this before.
01:02:09 ◼ ► - Apple came to him with a bag of money and said, "Would you be interested in doing this?"
01:02:14 ◼ ► And he's like, "Okay, let's do it." - Was that a bag of money? I was having a thought on this,
01:02:19 ◼ ► right? Because they were talking about the sets. The sets were very, very detailed because
01:02:24 ◼ ► they kind of had to adjust because the actual image quality was incredible. I've not seen
01:02:31 ◼ ► something in VR where the camera quality was so good. I think they did the right job in trying
01:02:37 ◼ ► to build this technology with partners because it looked amazing. But because of the fact that
01:02:45 ◼ ► you're able to choose where you want to look, to make it look good, the sets need to be very
01:02:50 ◼ ► highly detailed. - It felt very much like going to Disneyland where they have to build the entire
01:02:59 ◼ ► thing. Whereas on a movie, you only have to build little parts of it. They had to build the entire
01:03:03 ◼ ► thing because you can look around. Just like if you're in a line of an amusement park or you're
01:03:08 ◼ ► on the Star Wars ride or whatever, they're not building a movie set now. They're building an
01:03:13 ◼ ► environment that people are going to stand in and you can't have parts of it that fall down because
01:03:18 ◼ ► people will look wherever they want. That's true here too. That was one of the thoughts I had.
01:03:23 ◼ ► The two things that it reminded me of were, one, being in something like Rise of the Resistance.
01:03:30 ◼ ► It's not just a ride. You exit a portion of the ride and then you're in sets and you move on to
01:03:41 ◼ ► the next part. It reminded me of that. The other thing it reminded me of is theater. The fact that
01:03:50 ◼ ► you have these takes where there's a character or there are two characters and they're just sitting
01:03:54 ◼ ► there, it's a guy getting up out of his bunk and all of that. That felt very much like theater
01:03:59 ◼ ► because it's a long take and so really it's down to the physical performance of an actor.
01:04:04 ◼ ► It's not what we usually see from movies because in movies it's not just the actor. It's the actor
01:04:10 ◼ ► and the director and the editor making a story in individual shots. Whereas this, it's like I'm
01:04:16 ◼ ► sitting in a theater where the set is the bunks on the submarine and I can look wherever I want
01:04:28 ◼ ► is the actor and what he's doing. It's not movie-like at all but it's theater-like. It is
01:04:35 ◼ ► familiar in a way and so this is, I mean, it just struck me like this is a movie but it's also a
01:04:42 ◼ ► bunch of different other things. It's a new thing. It's a new thing. But like one of the things
01:04:47 ◼ ► they were saying like and again about the expense is unlike a regular set they actually can't,
01:04:54 ◼ ► they have to integrate the lighting and the audio into the set and it's like the audio a lot,
01:05:02 ◼ ► the audio is being recorded of the people actually moving which is not typically how you would like
01:05:10 ◼ ► create the audio for. You can't hang microphones up. You can't have any equipment in the front
01:05:15 ◼ ► 180 because they'll be in the shot and that means lighting and all that. I'm reminded of
01:05:22 ◼ ► in Citizen Kane famously there are ceilings and it's like movie sets don't have ceilings
01:05:30 ◼ ► so you very rarely see ceilings in movie sets but in Citizen Kane there are ceilings and how
01:05:35 ◼ ► they did it was they're basically like sheets that are lit to make it look like it's a solid ceiling
01:05:44 ◼ ► but it's not. It's a fake but that's the only way. I mean it's very hard to do it where you don't
01:05:51 ◼ ► have a traditional thing where we can hang lights and all that and they couldn't do it so they have
01:05:57 ◼ ► to have a lot of on-set lighting and also it wouldn't be realistic. It wouldn't look in a 180
01:06:03 ◼ ► degree environment it would not look realistic to have a big light blasting on somebody from
01:06:08 ◼ ► somewhere because that's not what the space would be like so completely changes again it completely
01:06:12 ◼ ► changes the way you have to stage this and yeah it's just very different. But it made me think
01:06:19 ◼ ► there is this like weird I think weird sometimes anti-CGI movement right online where people are
01:06:26 ◼ ► like everything was practical that meant it was better and like well I think well if you are one
01:06:30 ◼ ► of those people this is the format for you right you want more immersive content. I mean yeah
01:06:39 ◼ ► except one way to solve some of these technical issues is to use VFX to clear out things right.
01:06:46 ◼ ► But I just thought it was very funny when I was watching it and like seeing the sets that they
01:06:50 ◼ ► built it was funny to me and but it also I think indicated that I expect it was essentially a blank
01:06:58 ◼ ► check for this project right. It feels like it just like what is let's let's build a floodable
01:07:05 ◼ ► all metal submarine set. It kind of had that feeling to it but like I think for good reason
01:07:11 ◼ ► I think this movie serves to do what we are currently doing right like it is essentially
01:07:20 ◼ ► a marketing piece for people like us who have these and talk about this stuff to share with
01:07:25 ◼ ► people like this is cool right like because this is what we're asking for and have been asking for
01:07:30 ◼ ► for all year right give us cool stuff to talk about and like this is a cool thing a very very
01:07:38 ◼ ► cool thing to talk about. It is also I would say I have to assume that there are a lot of filmmakers
01:07:47 ◼ ► who are watching this thing and going huh yeah like yeah interesting and one of those filmmakers
01:07:54 ◼ ► will be the next person to talk to Apple about making something in this format. Yeah so someone's
01:07:59 ◼ ► going to watch this and be like I would like to play I would like to play in that toy box
01:08:05 ◼ ► for yeah for a nice chunk of change right like yeah there's going to be more short I really hope
01:08:10 ◼ ► but I think this is successful enough in fact I think it is very successful like I found myself
01:08:16 ◼ ► quite emotionally attached to the story by the end of it and it's only like a yeah 15 minute story
01:08:22 ◼ ► but I really wanted everybody to do well and I want to know more about these characters and I
01:08:26 ◼ ► want to know where they go to next because I felt very intimate with these characters like I am very
01:08:33 ◼ ► much with them and that is you mentioned it in your piece it's not just the visuals the audio
01:08:39 ◼ ► as well like that combination really really sells this piece. Yeah also one of the things that
01:08:45 ◼ ► impressed me because I know that some people will say well you know it's good for spectacle and you
01:08:50 ◼ ► can make an action set piece here but I really do believe that one of the things about this that I
01:08:54 ◼ ► like is the range of it that it's a character piece it's a suspense piece and it's an action
01:09:02 ◼ ► piece and the character piece is good because again it's theater. I know a lot of people don't
01:09:07 ◼ ► go to live theater we have a subscription to our local theater company and we go to live theater
01:09:12 ◼ ► you know six seven eight times a year something like that because we'll throw in a couple in San
01:09:15 ◼ ► Francisco. Lauren really likes live theater and I've come to I really like it too it's it's again
01:09:20 ◼ ► a completely different medium and is very interesting so it has some aspects of that that
01:09:26 ◼ ► I really like you do make a connection with those guys you're sitting there watching you know you're
01:09:30 ◼ ► in the room with them as they're eating their like pickles and whatever else the terrible food is
01:09:35 ◼ ► that they've stolen from the from the mess like it's really effective in doing that which is why
01:09:43 ◼ ► when I got to the end I also had that feeling of like I could see a more hunt for red October
01:09:48 ◼ ► or crimson tide or whatever else another you know claustrophobic submarine movie or something like
01:09:55 ◼ ► that I could see that because it would again have the pacing of there's some action set pieces and
01:10:03 ◼ ► there's some character stuff and that you put it all together and does it work I think it does this
01:10:08 ◼ ► is a short short short story because it's very it is limited to a couple of character bits and then
01:10:14 ◼ ► an action set piece and then that's the end of the movie but I came up to up to the surface afterward
01:10:19 ◼ ► uh uh was no longer submerged wondering you know like well where does this go from here and and I
01:10:25 ◼ ► would love to see more like not just I don't need a sequel to submerge but like the idea of like if
01:10:30 ◼ ► this had been longer I would have been in on on the ride and I love so I loved I loved it as an
01:10:35 ◼ ► experience and I also loved it to see a smart director trying to figure out and his team trying
01:10:42 ◼ ► to figure out what is an immersive movie like literally like what do we do here and I think a
01:10:53 ◼ ► particular shots he chooses are very interesting too there's some close-ups and I thought and
01:10:56 ◼ ► there's some shots where the depth of field is very limited so everything in the background is
01:11:00 ◼ ► super blurry and I thought these are really smart film grammar things of saying how do you focus
01:11:05 ◼ ► people's eyes on one thing when they've got a whole 180 degree range and the answer is you move
01:11:12 ◼ ► the camera really close to the actor yeah and there's nothing but blur in the background and
01:11:17 ◼ ► all you can do is look at the actor's face and I thought that's really effective right like that
01:11:22 ◼ ► I'm not distracted I know where to look now and that's a different technique than you'd use
01:11:27 ◼ ► in a regular 16 by 9 you know kind of film but I thought it was effective and so it was it was a
01:11:34 ◼ ► real joy to see all of these decisions being made because you know everybody's learning this and we
01:11:41 ◼ ► learned from the MLS highlights we learned what not to do with sports highlights as an immersive
01:11:46 ◼ ► because they have another sports thing coming right they do they have NBA All-Star Weekend
01:11:52 ◼ ► All-Star Weekend which was again eight months ago and it's just coming out I don't know what's going
01:11:58 ◼ ► on with the production they're just playing here right yeah they're messing around with it and so
01:12:03 ◼ ► we'll see how that looks we'll see how that looks and see if they made some different decisions
01:12:07 ◼ ► over the MLS highlights thing the Super Bowl thing maybe that they did I thought was better I thought
01:12:14 ◼ ► that the Super Bowl thing was was calmer yeah but I don't know I don't know Apple I have a pitch if
01:12:20 ◼ ► you want to bring the money truck to me I have a pitch I would like to make an immersive movie
01:12:27 ◼ ► version of one of my favorite films Glengarry Glen Ross oh wow worked very well because like that
01:12:33 ◼ ► movie you're essentially just in one room it's a play it's a play it's a play it was a play adapted
01:12:39 ◼ ► to a movie and it still uses a play but also I in a lot of places you're just in different parts of
01:12:45 ◼ ► the same office so you have these like set pieces I would say something similar which is I want to
01:12:49 ◼ ► see a theatrical experience here on an immersive it doesn't necessarily have to literally be a
01:12:56 ◼ ► stage show turned into immersive like Hamilton where it's like live from the theater but it
01:13:03 ◼ ► also doesn't need to be a movie what I'm thinking is could you make a play but build the whole set
01:13:11 ◼ ► yeah you don't have to sit in the audience you could just be right of the specific scene you can
01:13:16 ◼ ► just be in that scene ideally in the very small number of sets that are used because plays can't
01:13:22 ◼ ► really change the set that that would be another way to do it I think trying it out just as a play
01:13:26 ◼ ► where you've got the best seat in the house and you're just at a play would be cool but I think
01:13:30 ◼ ► that maybe there is some experimentation to do there but that is one of the takeaways I have
01:13:34 ◼ ► from Submerged is that live theater vibe is real and it's good like it's different but I really
01:13:40 ◼ ► like it I love the the fact that I was watching that guy I was very aware of it but I'm aware of
01:13:45 ◼ ► that when I watch live theater too I'm aware that I'm watching a performance especially when at the
01:13:50 ◼ ► start but I really enjoyed the fact that that actor you know he is just in a short film right
01:13:56 ◼ ► like you wouldn't really make a connection to that actor in film but in theater or in Submerged
01:14:03 ◼ ► it's just like me and that guy and that guy is performing and he's all that's moving on screen
01:14:10 ◼ ► and it's his whole body and he's giving a performance and like that is I really got some
01:14:20 ◼ ► apple and creators explore with this format the way that the format kind of exists and works kind
01:14:27 ◼ ► of allows for a little more mundanity to occur right like things you can kind of sit in the
01:14:33 ◼ ► moment a little bit more yeah I like it I think it's really interesting yep this episode is
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01:15:45 ◼ ► their support of this show and relay so it was announced last week at the i think at the bloomberg
01:15:54 ◼ ► screen time event which is put on by lucas shore at bloomberg that apple tv plus is going to be
01:16:01 ◼ ► made available as an amazon prime channel so this means that you will be able to subscribe for nine
01:16:09 ◼ ► dollars and 99 cents a month via amazon prime to get apple shows yeah why do you think apple would
01:16:19 ◼ ► do this i think apple's strategy okay so originally the strategy was we thought like oh get get people
01:16:31 ◼ ► to buy apple products and use content on apple products but then they extended the tv app to
01:16:36 ◼ ► other other streaming boxes and stuff okay now it's you don't even need the tv app you can just
01:16:42 ◼ ► get it within prime so i think the idea is probably that apple is really tired of having
01:16:48 ◼ ► such a tiny audience for their content and they have enough content now that they're trying to
01:16:55 ◼ ► find more people to watch it because if you look as as i think as well as they're doing creatively
01:17:01 ◼ ► if you look at the numbers from like neilson and other otherwise they are not being viewed
01:17:09 ◼ ► right very except for ted lasso well even even ted lasso right it usually scores pretty well and
01:17:17 ◼ ► has scored well in the streaming chance like i remember yeah anything but right right but that's
01:17:24 ◼ ► for an individual show but if you look at overall like who's watching apple tv it's not plus it's
01:17:29 ◼ ► just the the subscription numbers are just not there yeah so i think what they've decided is
01:17:35 ◼ ► they want more viewers i think that is the bottom line and they're like look if we can get more
01:17:41 ◼ ► viewers via amazon channels let's do it let's just do it and so it's an interesting experiment but
01:17:48 ◼ ► they they want so basically amazon has this thing where you can sign up for other streaming services
01:17:53 ◼ ► inside the prime video app and just watch them there and all the all the shows you can do paramount
01:17:59 ◼ ► plus and you know whatever else and you can just get them right there so we'll see i guess it asks
01:18:05 ◼ ► the question and i think it kind of answers it but it's still an interesting question anyway
01:18:09 ◼ ► as to whether apple at this point truly see tv plus as a standalone service that people
01:18:16 ◼ ► would seek out specifically rather than part of the bundle the apple bundle yeah it's interesting
01:18:25 ◼ ► i think this is a little bit of just realism which is apple apple's making tv plus content for
01:18:32 ◼ ► certain reasons including having content that's associated with its brand having content that's
01:18:38 ◼ ► available in its app having content that's available in its services bundle all of that
01:18:42 ◼ ► is true i think what they've realized is it's not gonna be enough right like like even if it
01:18:53 ◼ ► fulfills a hundred percent of their strategy it's still going to be a tiny percentage of people
01:18:58 ◼ ► and one way you broaden and get more interest in your platform and more interest in your
01:19:05 ◼ ► content is by having it available elsewhere so does this really i would argue putting on
01:19:12 ◼ ► amazon does not cut into potential future bundle sales right apple one sales probably doesn't even
01:19:20 ◼ ► cut into future apple tv sales although part of the challenge here is also like the perception
01:19:25 ◼ ► that apple to use apple tv plus you have to be in apple right you have to be in the apple thing and
01:19:31 ◼ ► it's going to be in prime video so anybody who uses prime video is like oh i can just get apple
01:19:35 ◼ ► here and even though the answer is you could have gotten apple anyway like forget about that forget
01:19:40 ◼ ► about that you can get it you can get it here and you can watch it here and that that broadens their
01:19:45 ◼ ► audience for it so i i think it's that's that it's my take on it at least right now is that they are
01:19:51 ◼ ► they are reaching the audience that they can reach and it's not enough they feel for various reasons
01:19:58 ◼ ► and i i you know maybe it's not enough for the creators it's not enough for the money they spend
01:20:03 ◼ ► and like it's all kind of experimental anyway so why not experiment with this i don't think
01:20:09 ◼ ► apple tv plus was ever meant to be like a brick wall where it's like unless you're in our ecosystem
01:20:13 ◼ ► you can't watch ted lasso i don't think that was ever really the idea was more like to make
01:20:18 ◼ ► the ecosystem shinier and nicer and make everybody feel good about being in it and maybe drawing some
01:20:24 ◼ ► people in and getting them to pay a little more money to apple but i don't think it was ever
01:20:27 ◼ ► really intended as being we're over here and you can't watch this thing um and ultimately they do
01:20:33 ◼ ► want more people to watch apple tv plus and they have gotten to the point that they genuinely can
01:20:40 ◼ ► put up a subscription in other places and be like there is enough good content for you here
01:20:45 ◼ ► like it's not going to be coming as quickly as a netflix but like there is good prestige content
01:20:53 ◼ ► available on this service like without a doubt so yeah they can do it it's a good it's good i mean
01:21:00 ◼ ► it helps now that it's now right now i mean i know it's ten dollars and not five dollars anymore but
01:21:05 ◼ ► like now there's a library they actually have we've been doing this long enough talking about
01:21:11 ◼ ► it that there's a library so now they can actually say you know come and we've got all these seasons
01:21:18 ◼ ► of slow horses and all of ted lasso and all of foundation and two seasons of shrinking and we've
01:21:24 ◼ ► got severance coming back and and amazon you know what amazon's pretty good as a marketer right like
01:21:30 ◼ ► there's advantages to being in the amazon ecosystem because when severance comes back amazon will
01:21:35 ◼ ► promote it because amazon does that amazon doesn't just like hide all these things and only promote
01:21:40 ◼ ► their own stuff because they do promote stuff that's on channels and if you search for for
01:21:45 ◼ ► for severance or ted lasso on amazon when apple's in channels it will come up and say yes it is
01:21:53 ◼ ► available click here to subscribe to tv plus within channels and you get that show and so
01:21:58 ◼ ► there's lots of side benefits because it turns out amazon yeah they're all about the marketing
01:22:02 ◼ ► i saw i think it was benjamin mayo from nine to five mac talking about this and it's just like
01:22:13 ◼ ► that apple wanted to right like i think i don't have everything but like this is what apple wanted
01:22:19 ◼ ► this is what a tv app was supposed to do and there are channels in there but it feels like amazon
01:22:25 ◼ ► has succeeded more with prime yeah i think unsurprisingly i mean it it's a little different
01:22:33 ◼ ► because apple's goal is about i think in the tv app is about data i don't think they need to
01:22:37 ◼ ► sell you a channel although they do have them and i think amazon has been more successful at that
01:22:43 ◼ ► than apple i think the real challenge is that you don't have to be a partner of apple's in terms of
01:22:49 ◼ ► selling reselling your service you just have to be on their platform and share their data and the
01:22:53 ◼ ► problem of course is that nobody netflix doesn't share with anybody and you know you can't buy
01:22:58 ◼ ► netflix inside of of of amazon prime either right because it's just netflix doesn't want
01:23:04 ◼ ► it doesn't need to doesn't need to so that is a challenge netflix wants to just be the be-all
01:23:09 ◼ ► end-all because it's number one but um but it is true like i don't know i don't know how much of
01:23:15 ◼ ► reselling channels was really apple's primary strategy versus just having all the apps remember
01:23:21 ◼ ► like that that's the question right is an app is a channel kind of even if you're paying for max
01:23:25 ◼ ► somewhere else if you've got the max app on your apple tv uh or on your ipad or your iphone in the
01:23:32 ◼ ► tv app it'll you know it works together it all works that the apps are like channels um so it's
01:23:39 ◼ ► okay right um it's okay but yes amazon seems to have done a better job probably in part because
01:23:45 ◼ ► a lot of prime video customers are just there because they got prime and so they have prime
01:23:50 ◼ ► video so they've got the app and then amazon's good at marketing and so reselling services fits
01:23:55 ◼ ► into what amazon does yeah i'm going to mention as well you published your iphone 16 review 16 pro
01:24:03 ◼ ► review yeah um and there were two things i wanted to pull out long last yeah you know it's time to
01:24:08 ◼ ► go sometimes we were busy well after you know the embargo reviews come out and it's like everybody's
01:24:13 ◼ ► had more than a week or you know to deal with them and then what can i add having just gotten it yeah
01:24:19 ◼ ► if i wait a week then i'm i'm giving you a week late what everybody gave you a week ago and so
01:24:24 ◼ ► i end up turning it into what i described on social media as being a series of essays about
01:24:28 ◼ ► aspects of the iphone 16 because that's after you know several weeks that's what i'm left with
01:24:33 ◼ ► no there were two things i want to talk about one was just you know you mentioned that you know
01:24:38 ◼ ► people get a bit bored that or again we get bored of the way the iphone looks but next year
01:24:47 ◼ ► could be the monumental phone you know like whether it's this skinny phone or whether they
01:24:51 ◼ ► do the flip phone or whether that comes a year or two after but like this phone design that we
01:24:56 ◼ ► have now the way that it looks actually might be something akin to the iphone 7 or the iphone 8 of
01:25:02 ◼ ► like hey they're going to look different after this one and that could be interesting um and
01:25:08 ◼ ► that also the idea of the iphone ultra that's gone like we were talking about that right like
01:25:14 ◼ ► are they going to do this ultra phone uh but it doesn't look like that is the case anymore in that
01:25:19 ◼ ► regard of like the most iphone where they might actually be going in a different direction with
01:25:23 ◼ ► this super skinny phone right exactly that the the max has come back to the regular pro and it feels
01:25:31 ◼ ► like based on the reports this is the last year of this potentially of of this very very long cycle
01:25:39 ◼ ► where we are using sort of the same phone um whatever that phone ends up being and and it'll
01:25:46 ◼ ► be expensive and all that but a new look iphone you know it just doesn't come the distance keeps
01:25:51 ◼ ► getting longer um but it may be that in the next couple of years we'll actually have some really
01:25:55 ◼ ► surprising iphones but i feel like basic iphone design apple feels is more or less solved it's it
01:26:01 ◼ ► feels very much like the laptop thing where apple's like no it's a it's a metal laptop in a monochrome
01:26:06 ◼ ► color i mean it's like you know what it is it was the macbook air back in 2011 and now it's basically
01:26:12 ◼ ► all laptops look like that and from apple and they're satisfied with that more or less they
01:26:17 ◼ ► tinker around the edges but nothing huge the generations was like original iphone iphone 4
01:26:23 ◼ ► iphone 6 iphone 10 and 12 like these are like the the ways in which they have changed design
01:26:34 ◼ ► and so it's actually been quite a long time yeah yeah the original iphone and then the 3 and the
01:26:38 ◼ ► 3gs and then the 4 and the 5 were the same yes they are different but i think like there are
01:26:44 ◼ ► there is enough similarities in the original and the 3g that you could kind of just like wrap them
01:26:49 ◼ ► together that's sure that's sure and then you get the four five yeah and then you get the 679
01:26:53 ◼ ► and then and then things get a little bit money because 10 or muddy because 10 is similar to 12
01:27:00 ◼ ► um and the 10 10r went which came out the same year as the 10s is sort of like the the base model
01:27:06 ◼ ► a couple years later so it's a little bit muddied but i feel like from the 10 on you've kind of got
01:27:11 ◼ ► a bunch of phones that are the same yeah but certainly from the 12 on i think i think the
01:27:15 ◼ ► flat side of 12 like it had enough of difference that's when it resolved into like a single product
01:27:21 ◼ ► line after a little bit of muddiness which i think we're about to do again i feel like if if
01:27:25 ◼ ► mark german's reports are right yeah we're about to enter a muddy time where the old design is
01:27:30 ◼ ► available and there's a new design and then there's a the next year there's another design
01:27:34 ◼ ► and then how do those resolve down to being more like a great a a little tighter set of products
01:27:39 ◼ ► that are available probably takes three or four years to get there i think that's where we're
01:27:44 ◼ ► headed give me the mess so this is this is the end of kind of and and again the point i make in
01:27:49 ◼ ► the review is i actually say like here are all the iterations you get if you're coming from a 12
01:27:54 ◼ ► or a 13 or a 14 right like there are a lot of changes that have happened since the iphone 12
01:28:01 ◼ ► and you forget how many of them there are that's the iteration kind of thing and that's why people
01:28:06 ◼ ► don't you know maybe our listeners do but most people don't buy a phone every year it is every
01:28:10 ◼ ► two three four years and they get a nice big upgrade but it's also not as must have as it
01:28:16 ◼ ► used to be because those upgrades are all smaller which is why you wait four years and then you get
01:28:21 ◼ ► a really juicy upgrade the other thing the main thing i think that you focus on in the video
01:28:26 ◼ ► but video in the review uh is the right the radio yeah the righty uh the words is camera control
01:28:40 ◼ ► is bad but just wasn't executed as well as it could have been yeah that's that's exactly it i
01:28:48 ◼ ► like the impulse to do camera control i like the impulse of putting a hardware button on and saying
01:28:53 ◼ ► it works like the button you would have on a camera remember cameras everybody which some
01:28:57 ◼ ► people don't but you know cameras had buttons and if you pushed it all the way down it took a
01:29:01 ◼ ► picture and then a lot of them if you pushed it half the way down it would focus and some of them
01:29:05 ◼ ► had a little ring or a little uh for a mode or a little wheel that you could dial and stuff like
01:29:09 ◼ ► that and so i get what they're trying to go here but it's a couple of things first off what i said
01:29:14 ◼ ► was i think they plussed it too much you know that's that disney concept which is you take a
01:29:18 ◼ ► thing and then you're like let's add a thing and another thing and another thing and now it's
01:29:21 ◼ ► really amazing because we added all these jokes and this little extra whizzy thing and all that
01:29:25 ◼ ► and i think that's a good instinct but i think that sometimes you can go too far and you know
01:29:29 ◼ ► we've been talking about apple's tendency to overdo with something like the home pod or the vision pro
01:29:35 ◼ ► and i would say the camera control got overdone because that is a button it does not need to be
01:29:42 ◼ ► a button with a haptic with a force sensor and with a touch sensitive swipe control on the top
01:29:50 ◼ ► it's a lot and i'm impressed that they do it yes the prowess of the hardware design team is amazing
01:29:55 ◼ ► but is it too much i would say they didn't necessarily need to be all of that but my big
01:30:02 ◼ ► problem too is then on the software side and this is why when we were in memphis i said uh
01:30:08 ◼ ► it had touch bar vibes is i think the software side is really misguided i think that i i think
01:30:15 ◼ ► while you can learn it it's way too complicated it's too easy to get wrong and as a pro feature
01:30:22 ◼ ► great as the default feature for regular people i just think it's a mistake i can't and as i was
01:30:32 ◼ ► writing it i was increasingly like thinking about this and thinking like why is it this way
01:30:37 ◼ ► by default camera button push it halfway down to focus now i know your iphone is smart it
01:30:43 ◼ ► autofocuses but the idea is modern cameras are smart too when they still do this because the
01:30:47 ◼ ► idea is there's like a little crosshair somewhere and you're you're basically telling the camera no
01:30:52 ◼ ► no no i want you to i'm going to put it halfway down i want you to focus on this thing in the
01:30:55 ◼ ► foreground and then i'm going to move it to the background or focus on this thing in the background
01:30:59 ◼ ► or in the midfield and that's the center focus point and it's a it's a metaphor it's like a it's
01:31:04 ◼ ► a it's a very commonly used thing and apple has said that that feature is coming to camera control
01:31:12 ◼ ► in a software update in the future i do not understand why that was not the first feature
01:31:17 ◼ ► i do not understand why flipping around through photographic styles or zooming or switching
01:31:23 ◼ ► cameras is the thing that shipped by default but that the replicating classic camera look and feel
01:31:31 ◼ ► feel was not the first thing to try and then introduce more complexity for people who want
01:31:37 ◼ ► more complexity at the very least though yeah a zoom or what i have it set to is switching between
01:31:43 ◼ ► the cameras yeah which is not not a not which is it's fine um but anyway this is my feeling the
01:31:49 ◼ ► good news is camera control can be fixed in software updates to be better but i do i do
01:31:56 ◼ ► question apple's choices i think that they made some questionable choices love the ambition love
01:32:01 ◼ ► the impulse to build a piece of hardware but fundamentally the more i've thought about it
01:32:07 ◼ ► the more i think the camera control wasn't really executed right because i think by default it's too
01:32:14 ◼ ► fiddly it's too messy it's too hard to learn and while you can learn it and it's a great
01:32:19 ◼ ► ultimately it's a great power user feature that it that should not be in the faces of people who
01:32:27 ◼ ► are using it as a regular person because i think it over complicates it it's too easy to get it wrong
01:32:32 ◼ ► and it's going to turn people off and i think it would be better if it was simple and that normal
01:32:39 ◼ ► people could use it simply and that more advanced people could say oh oh did you read that story or
01:32:47 ◼ ► i guess okay did you see that tick tock about how you can enable this setting that lets you change
01:32:51 ◼ ► the styles as you it's like yes that's what this should be but it's almost like they're so proud
01:32:56 ◼ ► of the fact that they packed all that technology in that button that they're like let's turn it
01:33:00 ◼ ► all on by default and i think it's a mistake i just i do i think that they overdid it and they
01:33:05 ◼ ► made something that should be broadly usable because the whole idea of the button is it's a
01:33:10 ◼ ► button you push down and they made it too much and i think that they i just i think they blew it i
01:33:14 ◼ ► think that it is they they need to do some extra work i and the good news is they can they can
01:33:19 ◼ ► change a lot of the conception of camera control with software because again impulse good some of
01:33:25 ◼ ► the execution bad you can fix the execution and software updates this episode is brought to you by
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01:34:58 ◼ ► first one comes from braden this is a big question but it's a good question okay braden says following
01:35:07 ◼ ► your recent discussion on the meta orion tech demo and not knowing what apple is working on
01:35:13 ◼ ► fully behind the scenes do you think that it would benefit apple to come from a more open approach in
01:35:18 ◼ ► the future i'm not saying they should talk about products in the near-term pipeline but should
01:35:23 ◼ ► maybe do more things like the knowledge navigator demo from 1987 to show how tech could benefit
01:35:28 ◼ ► human life and well-being without revealing specifics about future products um okay i mean
01:35:41 ◼ ► when you're doing something like knowledge navigator i mean it's cool but what does it mean
01:35:48 ◼ ► like it's not real it's more like a this is our vision of the future and this is where you'll be
01:35:56 ◼ ► someday and while that's fun to look back like knowledge navigator like it's fun to look back
01:36:02 ◼ ► it's fun to look back at it but apple of 1987 was not capable of doing anything like it
01:36:09 ◼ ► right and so it ends up being what it's brand marketing yeah and and i see you could make the
01:36:18 ◼ ► argument that it's brand marketing i think what apple would tell you is that companies that need
01:36:22 ◼ ► to show you stuff that's not shipping and might never ship are trying to justify their existence
01:36:29 ◼ ► and they've got nothing to ship and i would say that steve jobs coming back to apple really
01:36:33 ◼ ► intensified that right it's real hard to ship the product is shipping is what matters i i will agree
01:36:40 ◼ ► vision pro is a great example where they would probably have been better off doing a low-key
01:36:46 ◼ ► you know we're working on this thing we're going to make developer kits available they're very
01:36:50 ◼ ► expensive but this is a direction we're going in the future and i feel like given as we said
01:36:55 ◼ ► earlier today given apple stature the focus on apple it's almost impossible for them to
01:36:59 ◼ ► actually do that nothing they do is low-key nothing they can't do can be low-key it will
01:37:04 ◼ ► never be low-key so they just kind of like do what they're going to do i think there's a good
01:37:09 ◼ ► argument to be made potentially that if it hurts you to have meta out there doing orion when you've
01:37:18 ◼ ► got that you've done that work and you've got it internally if it hurts you in some way could you
01:37:25 ◼ ► discuss disclosing it and saying here's here is where we think the future of this products are
01:37:29 ◼ ► going and we're on it but i think i would argue if i was inside apple that if we have it and are
01:37:39 ◼ ► confident that we're going to get there around the same time meta is why do we need to show it
01:37:45 ◼ ► i guess the answer would be if there's a reason if you want to motivate developers if you want to get
01:37:50 ◼ ► give people reasons that to view vision pro differently as a stepping stone to something else
01:37:55 ◼ ► like you could do it but i think always the argument inside apple and i think it's mostly
01:37:59 ◼ ► a good argument is companies don't show products that don't exist out of a position of strength
01:38:07 ◼ ► they do it out of position of weakness now the question is like well was meta showing weakness
01:38:14 ◼ ► when they showed orion and my answer is yes meta was perceived as have wasted money on their entire
01:38:21 ◼ ► vr and ar project it was a mark zuckerberg joke where people are like oh he should have been
01:38:26 ◼ ► spending money on ai and instead he was spending it on the stupid vr stuff that nobody cares about
01:38:30 ◼ ► and he changed the name of the company and it's dumb why did he do it and also meta is perceived
01:38:34 ◼ ► as having lesser products than vision pro all they tried a high-end model right which you bought
01:38:44 ◼ ► vr helmet which is great it's fun those games are fun and all of that but like there's this
01:38:49 ◼ ► perception that they're down in the kind of junk area making a games console and apple is making
01:38:55 ◼ ► this sophisticated thing that's the future and all of that so i think there were some reasons why
01:38:59 ◼ ► meta felt like they were in a position of weakness they said we've got this thing we need to show
01:39:04 ◼ ► people that we actually are on this and we're doing amazing stuff and so they showed it my
01:39:09 ◼ ► question is does apple feel like they're ever in a position that's so weak that they need to
01:39:15 ◼ ► release something or show something that they're working on in order to justify their existence
01:39:20 ◼ ► and i would say the thus far modern rich post steve jobs return apple has never felt that way
01:39:30 ◼ ► and so i i guess that's my argument is it would be fun but i can tell you haven't covered 90s apple
01:39:39 ◼ ► 90s apple was in dire straits they were a mess they were spending money on all sorts of things
01:39:43 ◼ ► that were never going to ship and 1990s apple was great at showing you things from their design lab
01:39:51 ◼ ► and product concepts they did it all the time we put on the cover of mac user they put on the cover
01:39:56 ◼ ► of mac world like mid 90s apple was like sure here are eight max that we're thinking of shipping
01:40:02 ◼ ► someday or not and you know a couple of them looked kind of like what the 20th anniversary
01:40:07 ◼ ► mac ended up being but they just put it out there 90s apple was about to die right like it was not
01:40:12 ◼ ► a good sign it was fun but it was not a good sign so i i i get the how exciting it would be and how
01:40:19 ◼ ► we all want apple to say what their plan is in the long run for vision os and vision pro
01:40:24 ◼ ► but they're not going to do it and if they do it i'd actually be really worried because that that's
01:40:30 ◼ ► bad right because they're coming from a position of weakness they they have to they they can't
01:40:34 ◼ ► dazzle you with what they're doing today and they're afraid you're going to go away and stop
01:40:37 ◼ ► paying attention to them so they're going to show you something shiny even though the shiny thing is
01:40:41 ◼ ► not something that they're going to sell i just i just don't see it aaron asks how does the idea
01:40:47 ◼ ► of products like meta ray bands compared to google glass from 10 years ago is it that we've come far
01:40:56 ◼ ► these things are becoming more socially acceptable like why does the ray band succeed where google
01:41:11 ◼ ► was five or six years out from the first iphone yeah and now it's 2024 yeah we've had a decade or
01:41:23 ◼ ► more where every single person around you has a camera and when their phone is out of their pocket
01:41:31 ◼ ► they are taking pictures basically and so i think culturally it's very different also i would say
01:41:38 ◼ ► meta ray bands especially because they're not ar products at all meta ray bands are sunglasses with
01:41:44 ◼ ► a camera in them what they're not is glasses with like a weird screen thing and a and a and a like
01:41:52 ◼ ► that where you look like a cyborg part of it is that they're they're more stealthy and i know you
01:41:57 ◼ ► could say that's they're sneaky but i'd say they aren't as disruptive to it and on top of that we
01:42:05 ◼ ► are all used to this i mean that's that for me that's certainly my feeling now is back then it
01:42:10 ◼ ► was like who does this guy think he is walking into this meeting and taking video of all of us
01:42:14 ◼ ► and now it's like everybody everybody in this meeting has three different devices that can
01:42:19 ◼ ► record audio and video like it's kind of over but also i think they don't look as disruptive and
01:42:27 ◼ ► that that's part of it and that you know if you were and that's going to be one of the challenges
01:42:31 ◼ ► in the long run with things like orion or whatever apple might want to do is they do need to not look
01:42:37 ◼ ► disruptive if they look if it looks like there's a cyborg coming down the street people are going
01:42:44 ◼ ► to react much worse than if it's somebody with ray bands with a little circle in it like i mean
01:42:49 ◼ ► because people wearing air pods people have a reaction to that right like especially in the
01:42:54 ◼ ► early days people were like oh you're wearing you have these weird things in your ears the apple
01:42:58 ◼ ► watched it was like oh like people you know you're checking your watch a lot you're not paying any
01:43:02 ◼ ► attention i i just we get over it we do the biggest change i agree with you like the what
01:43:08 ◼ ► people think about is their privacy i think on the whole has changed and it has become less about you
01:43:13 ◼ ► in the real world and more your information that's online or in private places like i think the idea
01:43:19 ◼ ► that somebody would have a camera and they can take a picture of you i i think that that we have
01:43:25 ◼ ► passed that like we have passed that line a long time ago now like a long long long time ago right
01:43:31 ◼ ► or wrong yeah right or wrong and i i would argue that yes of course there's still nuance here in
01:43:39 ◼ ► terms of um what's the right behavior what's the etiquette what what is being transgressive versus
01:43:47 ◼ ► being normal and like absolutely they're they're conversations but i feel like it's just more
01:43:54 ◼ ► accepted that your the doorbells have cameras and and houses have cameras pointing out at the street
01:44:04 ◼ ► and everybody's got a camera in their pocket which means any kind of behavior that can happen good or
01:44:09 ◼ ► bad can be captured and and like the world has has just changed where i think probably wrongly in a
01:44:18 ◼ ► lot of cases the perception back in 2013 was that public space was kind of free from that even though
01:44:29 ◼ ► it probably wasn't that much but like if you if you behave like a jerk on the street or in a park
01:44:36 ◼ ► or something guess what there will be dozens of videos of your behavior because that's the world
01:44:43 ◼ ► we live in now that's going to happen like i know there's that there's that video i know people are
01:44:48 ◼ ► going to send it to us and we'll talk about it or just just try and stop it like those uh harvard
01:44:52 ◼ ► students who did that thing where they were wearing meta ray bands and it was streaming
01:44:56 ◼ ► live to an instagram page to instagram detection like yeah that stuff is wild but like also i could
01:45:04 ◼ ► just do it my phone and like i know it's less exactly it's it's less obtrusive when i'm just
01:45:09 ◼ ► doing it with cameras on my face but like the technology that they were using was just coming
01:45:14 ◼ ► to an iphone like that's what was going on yeah their stunt is literally it was not about meta
01:45:21 ◼ ► ray bands it was about how much facial recognition technology exists on the internet and how much
01:45:29 ◼ ► data about every individual person is on the internet yeah the glasses were immaterial because
01:45:33 ◼ ► you could absolutely just do it with your phone or just set a physical camera instead of put a
01:45:37 ◼ ► ring doorbell yeah just there and just have it running exactly like there are so many issues
01:45:42 ◼ ► there but yeah but but yeah that's but that's not it and i i assume right like i just this is this
01:45:48 ◼ ► is the world we live in is it's the panopticon right it is literally everything is being viewed
01:45:54 ◼ ► and recorded or could be and and so i think at that level when you're living in that world
01:46:00 ◼ ► having some glasses that have a camera on it is not that i mean like everything's got a camera on
01:46:09 ◼ ► it and everything's got a microphone on it and that's just how we are and it's only going to
01:46:12 ◼ ► be more because as more of this these ai features take off that's what we're going to get is who is
01:46:18 ◼ ► that person uh you know what was the conversation that that was had like i i feel like we talk about
01:46:25 ◼ ► the companies that have talked about doing like we'll record everything you do and then you can
01:46:30 ◼ ► play back a transcript of everything you do later and it was like oh well that sounds illegal and
01:46:34 ◼ ► bad and all that and it's like yes but i i totally see a future where your personal assistant may not
01:46:41 ◼ ► be able to give you a full transcript of that conversation you had but we'll say at 10 30 you
01:46:47 ◼ ► had a brief conversation with so and so about this thing a summary right and like that stuff's going
01:46:52 ◼ ► to happen it's just it's all going to happen and yeah yeah that's so i'm not making a value judgment
01:47:00 ◼ ► necessarily but just saying i think that's the answer to aaron's question is that the world has
01:47:06 ◼ ► changed in terms of this stuff and cultural acceptance of this stuff has changed at least
01:47:12 ◼ ► a bit plus i i say don't undersell the cyborg thing which is i think google glass looked weird
01:47:18 ◼ ► and ravens don't if you would like to send in a question for us to answer in a future episode or
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01:47:28 ◼ ► there if you want to read jason's review or check out his other work go to sixcolors.com
01:47:34 ◼ ► and you can hear him here on relay and at the incomparable.com as well you can listen to my
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01:47:50 ◼ ► we are at upgrade relay thank you to our members who support us with upgrade plus i think this week
01:47:55 ◼ ► we're going to talk a little bit about some prep for the draft that we're going to do maybe set