Upgrade

00:00:00 ◼   ► [Music]

00:00:09 ◼   ► From Relay, this is Upgrade, episode 525 for August 19th, 2024. Today's show is brought to you by Fitbod, DeleteMe and KRCS.

00:00:19 ◼   ► My name is Mike Hurley, I'm joined by Jason Snow. Hi, Jason.

00:00:22 ◼   ► Hi, Mike. By my calculations, if you do 52 episodes a year, after 10 years of Relay, you should have 520 episodes.

00:00:30 ◼   ► This is episode 525. We're not at our 10th anniversary yet. I just want to point out again how much extra work we do.

00:00:36 ◼   ► How much extra work... No calendar can hold us down.

00:00:39 ◼   ► No, we burst right through. There's like a week and it's like, "Hey, one episode of Upgrade," and we just kind of jam ourselves in there and like, "Nuh-uh! Two this time! Boom! We did it!"

00:00:47 ◼   ► How about that? How about that?

00:00:48 ◼   ► And we high-five and we did that like nine times in 10 years, apparently, so great.

00:00:53 ◼   ► I have a Snow Talk question for you. It comes from Anthony, who wants to know.

00:00:56 ◼   ► Jason, you said on the last episode that you were a long-time U2 fan. I'm curious, what is your favorite album or song from the band U2?

00:01:05 ◼   ► Originally this question said "Lifelong," and I just want to point out I'm not a lifelong U2 fan because they didn't exist until like 1980.

00:01:12 ◼   ► Well, the long lifetime of the band.

00:01:14 ◼   ► And in fact, the... and I was not a fan for the lifetime of the band. In fact, my sophomore year in high school, we had to do like reports about a thing we liked.

00:01:24 ◼   ► I don't even remember what extended project of some sort, and there was a guy in our class who did a thing about U2 and we thought it was dumb.

00:01:32 ◼   ► And then in 1987, "The Joshua Tree" came out and it's a great album and it's my favorite U2 album and I became a U2 fan.

00:01:38 ◼   ► So that's the answer, "The Joshua Tree." And favorite song, I don't know. I had a hard time picking. I don't have one clear favorite.

00:01:44 ◼   ► Maybe one, which is from "Ockton Baby," or "With or Without You," which is from "Joshua Tree." But like, it's great.

00:01:49 ◼   ► I have a playlist called "Best of U2." It's got like 50 songs in it. It's great.

00:01:53 ◼   ► And then there was that time that Apple Music, iCloud, Sync, Thing, whatever, had a little burp.

00:01:59 ◼   ► And I got an additional playlist called "Best of U3."

00:02:03 ◼   ► Oh my God. I was so ready for that.

00:02:06 ◼   ► I nearly just smashed my wall into my microphone. That's going to affect me for the rest of the episode now.

00:02:12 ◼   ► It incremented helpfully when it got a sync failure of some sort and it thought, "Oh no, I don't know which one of these playlists."

00:02:19 ◼   ► There aren't two playlists. It made a mistake, but it does that thing where it's like, "Well, okay, I'm going to add a number onto the end."

00:02:26 ◼   ► But then they've obviously got code that says, "But if there's already a number at the end, just increment it."

00:02:32 ◼   ► And therefore, I got a playlist I have not yet deleted because it's hilarious.

00:02:37 ◼   ► Also, by the way, does not contain the entire contents of the "Best of U2" playlist.

00:02:41 ◼   ► They messed that up too. But the "Best of U3," a great classic playlist that I've never listened to because why would I do that?

00:02:52 ◼   ► Incredible. That's so good.

00:02:55 ◼   ► Some good Apple Music bugs there.

00:02:57 ◼   ► You have to keep it, right? Like, it's too good to get rid of.

00:03:00 ◼   ► I do. "Best of U3." It's "Best of U3," there are only 34 songs. "Best of U2," there's 55 songs.

00:03:08 ◼   ► So who, what? Don't ask. It's U3.

00:03:13 ◼   ► But let me ask you, Jason. Is the "Best of U3" playlist better? Is the curation better? Is it good at it, do you think?

00:03:19 ◼   ► I don't think so.

00:03:21 ◼   ► Okay.

00:03:25 ◼   ► I don't know. It's not just cut off at the end. It's like there's some very weird sync problem. I don't know. Don't ask at Apple Music.

00:03:34 ◼   ► If you'd like to send in a question of your own to help us open a future episode of the show, just go to upgradefeedback.com and send in a snail talk.

00:03:42 ◼   ► We have some follow-up from last week's episode, Jason. We'll start with some stuff on macOS screen sharing.

00:03:49 ◼   ► So I'm seeing from 9 to 5 Mac here, starting in beta 6, the screen sharing prompt now allows you to approve for a month rather than a week.

00:03:57 ◼   ► And the popup says, "App name is requesting to bypass the system private window picker and directly access your screen and audio.

00:04:05 ◼   ► This will allow app name to record your screen and system audio, including personal sensitive information that may be visible or audible."

00:04:12 ◼   ► And you can approve, you can deny, or you can approve for one month. Is this better?

00:04:16 ◼   ► No. Well, yes. It's better but doesn't solve the underlying issue, is what I would say.

00:04:23 ◼   ► Which is asking once a month is better than asking once a week. But not having apparently a way to say, "No, really, I approve this app. Stop asking me," I think is user hostile.

00:04:37 ◼   ► And then I also think the way that this is written, and again it's a beta, but assuming that it ships like this, it's written in a way that shames the developer.

00:04:48 ◼   ► And provides a level of technical detail that no regular user is going to understand.

00:04:55 ◼   ► Bypass the system private window picker and directly access your screen and audio.

00:04:59 ◼   ► I don't actually know what private window picker means. What is that? What are they talking about?

00:05:04 ◼   ► So it's a system thing that they did where there's a more constrained way to grab information off the screen, where you as an app ask the system to have the user pick a window.

00:05:17 ◼   ► It's that thing. And the user picks and it gets shared back to the app so that there's an intermediary.

00:05:23 ◼   ► This is one of the ways that Apple has tried to make things more private and secure, is that there's an intermediary that asks.

00:05:29 ◼   ► Like in iOS, it's the idea that when you select a photo, instead of the app reading your photo library, the app asks Apple to ask the user to select a photo.

00:05:39 ◼   ► And the user selects a photo and Apple hands the photo that was selected back to the app.

00:05:44 ◼   ► Because that's more secure and private that way. The app can't see all the photos.

00:05:50 ◼   ► The problem is, one, that's a very technical API kind of thing going on here.

00:05:55 ◼   ► And two, it doesn't actually solve the larger problem of apps that actually do need to read your screen and are not just screen sharing a window, which is what this seems to be suggesting.

00:06:06 ◼   ► Yeah, so apps that want to see everything, do they get the one month still? Or is it just one week for those?

00:06:13 ◼   ► No, I think they get the one month.

00:06:15 ◼   ► Okay.

00:06:16 ◼   ► I think that's the change here.

00:06:17 ◼   ► This is just an example of the text, one of the prompts.

00:06:21 ◼   ► Yeah, I mean, a month is better than a week, but it's still worse than forever.

00:06:26 ◼   ► Right?

00:06:28 ◼   ► Like, I mean, that's what we're arguing here.

00:06:30 ◼   ► And here's what I say. We got some good feedback from a couple of listeners who wrote in.

00:06:34 ◼   ► And these are things that I hadn't considered. I'm sure you had, but we didn't talk about them on the show specifically.

00:06:39 ◼   ► So first one comes from Adam, who says, "This change that Apple wants to make is going to be a miserable mess for IT professionals.

00:06:46 ◼   ► Services like LogMeIn and Splashtop must have screen recording permissions to allow remote IT support to take control and support remote computers.

00:06:54 ◼   ► Having to accept the permission often would be a disaster for IT departments.

00:06:58 ◼   ► Confused users might disable the software and create more work and frustration."

00:07:03 ◼   ► And Stephen wrote in and said, "I have a Mac mini home server like many people do.

00:07:07 ◼   ► I also work at a church where people are remote every day, but Sunday and remote inter-production machines are set up the weekend.

00:07:14 ◼   ► If you never or rarely see the screen of the machine, how would you re-authenticate so you can continue to have remote access?"

00:07:21 ◼   ► Yeah, I saw a Mastodon post by Luke Van Dahl who does the screens app that was similar, which is,

00:07:26 ◼   ► how do you connect to a remote Mac in order to control its screen so that you can administer it when it's in a data center or something like that,

00:07:35 ◼   ► if the act of connecting to it pops up a dialogue?

00:07:38 ◼   ► Like, you can't use what happens.

00:07:41 ◼   ► At least the second example in that example is like, it's something you're doing to your own computer, right?

00:07:46 ◼   ► So like, you know, maybe you can work it out.

00:07:48 ◼   ► But that first one about IT departments, that feels like a nightmare.

00:07:53 ◼   ► The second one, maybe you can work it out.

00:07:55 ◼   ► If there's a way to do it that doesn't do that prompt, that's fine.

00:07:59 ◼   ► But if I'm on vacation and I need to connect to my server back at my house and it throws up a prompt,

00:08:03 ◼   ► or honestly, if I'm sitting at my desk and I need to connect to my server in the back of the house and it throws up a prompt like that,

00:08:09 ◼   ► and I don't have access to the interface, it's actually an enormous problem because I can't access that computer, if that's the case.

00:08:15 ◼   ► It's a very, very, very bad use case.

00:08:17 ◼   ► That computer doesn't have a monitor attached to it.

00:08:19 ◼   ► And you can't dictate when it's going to show you that prompt either, can you?

00:08:22 ◼   ► And there's that.

00:08:23 ◼   ► Now, I'm not saying that there aren't APIs for a lot of this stuff and there are ways through and all that.

00:08:28 ◼   ► I'm just saying that there are lots of complexities here.

00:08:30 ◼   ► Both of these examples are good.

00:08:32 ◼   ► And we'll come back to what we said last week, which is, I think I'll appreciate Apple trying to protect users.

00:08:38 ◼   ► The issue is protecting the users haphazardly, stumbling around and throwing a bunch of things, a bunch of permission dialogue boxes up there inartfully,

00:08:48 ◼   ► and without thinking through all the use cases is going to break people's workflows and make more work for people.

00:08:55 ◼   ► And they need to consider the whole before doing this.

00:08:59 ◼   ► And that is, see, that's at the root of my criticism of stuff like this is it just doesn't feel very well thought through.

00:09:06 ◼   ► Like the security people, their job is to think things through carefully.

00:09:10 ◼   ► And the reasons that they're choosing, I think, are careful.

00:09:14 ◼   ► And the APIs that they're building to create more secure ways of accessing private information, I think are carefully planned.

00:09:21 ◼   ► And then you get to the point where it meets the user and it does not feel carefully planned.

00:09:26 ◼   ► It feels haphazard. It feels last minute.

00:09:29 ◼   ► It feels like people who are really under the gun to force an interface onto users because this API has been built and the security stuff has been built.

00:09:39 ◼   ► And the last people to meet it where the rubber meets the road are the people doing the interface.

00:09:44 ◼   ► And they're just kind of like tossing things out there.

00:09:47 ◼   ► And as I've read this week from a bunch of people, it also is very piecemeal.

00:09:52 ◼   ► Like that's the other problem is there's no holistic answer here.

00:09:55 ◼   ► There's no, you know, oh, there's three screen recorders that you use.

00:10:01 ◼   ► I'm going to put up a dialogue at an unknown time to you in six or seven days where I say, hey, there are three apps looking at your screen.

00:10:10 ◼   ► Do you care? Let us know.

00:10:12 ◼   ► Instead, you'll just get three popups at three different times, presumably.

00:10:17 ◼   ► And it's just, again, it's just haphazard and frustrating.

00:10:20 ◼   ► And I've discovered in the last week listening to podcasts that I have become the permissions guy, apparently.

00:10:28 ◼   ► And I don't want to be that guy.

00:10:30 ◼   ► But somebody has to say, you can't just go, oh, yes, Apple, thank you.

00:10:34 ◼   ► Thank you for protecting us.

00:10:36 ◼   ► Thank you.

00:10:37 ◼   ► When you get smothered by popups and partly the people who just click yes to get it out of their face, they're not even going to complain.

00:10:47 ◼   ► That's a huge security problem. Right.

00:10:49 ◼   ► And who's going to say, right, who is there to say so if I have to be the one to say this is bad, do better.

00:10:55 ◼   ► I do think that's kind of part of my job.

00:10:57 ◼   ► And unfortunately, the reason I keep coming back to these permissions requests is not because I'm against security and privacy.

00:11:02 ◼   ► It's because this is a place where Apple is failing.

00:11:06 ◼   ► Right. Like they are not doing a good enough job.

00:11:08 ◼   ► So that's that's the reason.

00:11:10 ◼   ► Like, I would rather not.

00:11:12 ◼   ► But that's the reason is my Mac belongs to me.

00:11:15 ◼   ► I need to have a certain level of control over it.

00:11:18 ◼   ► You can get in my way to a certain extent, but then you need to get out of my way when I tell you to.

00:11:22 ◼   ► And that's not happening.

00:11:24 ◼   ► And it's just it's unacceptable.

00:11:26 ◼   ► They need to change how they approach this.

00:11:28 ◼   ► Why can't they just I mean, there already exists a like that little screen sharing thing that pops up in the menu bar that goes purple.

00:11:35 ◼   ► Right. Like, why isn't that enough?

00:11:37 ◼   ► Like, I don't I don't feel like I'm having to reauthenticate my camera usage for applications.

00:11:43 ◼   ► And like my camera, the access to my webcam for an app is as audio is like that's as dangerous, in my opinion, as screen sharing just in different ways.

00:11:54 ◼   ► I got my little orange microphone in my menu bar.

00:11:56 ◼   ► And like there is the purple one, right? Because I remember you had to change some stuff for bartender to get it to work.

00:12:00 ◼   ► So like what? Yeah.

00:12:02 ◼   ► What is not good enough about that system that it can't be adapted?

00:12:05 ◼   ► And like, I don't if if what it takes for me to never see these things is to have another one of those colored icons in my menu bar.

00:12:13 ◼   ► I'll take it fine.

00:12:14 ◼   ► I'm a big boy.

00:12:16 ◼   ► Like I can handle that.

00:12:17 ◼   ► It's not going to upset me that much if I get to do the things on the Mac that I want to do.

00:12:21 ◼   ► And maybe it protects other people.

00:12:22 ◼   ► But like, why does it have to be this this pop up every month?

00:12:26 ◼   ► Like, just give me give me the little purple icon on the menu bar or whatever.

00:12:30 ◼   ► I hope that the sign that they push this to a month is a sign that there has been some understanding inside Apple that this is maybe not the best approach and that hopefully they will continue to make changes here.

00:12:44 ◼   ► Honestly, you know, having to give permission again later is fine for me because it does solve a lot of issues where instead of it,

00:12:55 ◼   ► somebody has access to your system and you give permission in the moment and then they never ask again is not a great situation to be in.

00:13:02 ◼   ► But the next time they ask, or if you go immediately to a particular setting, at some point, you need to be able to say stop asking or notify only.

00:13:13 ◼   ► Right.

00:13:14 ◼   ► Where like that's the other way to go.

00:13:15 ◼   ► Right. Which is instead of having a permission, have a notification, have a thing on the menu bar.

00:13:19 ◼   ► There are other things you could do.

00:13:21 ◼   ► And that's my big point here is I feel like a bunch of smart people at Apple who are experts in user experience could get together and come up with kind of a holistic approach that serves the needs of privacy without getting in the user's faces quite as badly and giving users power to control their Macs when they want to.

00:13:41 ◼   ► It doesn't feel like that has happened and instead it's just another permission thing comes off the conveyor belt and they slap another permission style box into the OS and we're showering in them now and it's just it's too much.

00:13:53 ◼   ► They need to they need to do better.

00:13:55 ◼   ► And that's just and I'm aware of the fact that there are internal Apple issues here.

00:14:00 ◼   ► Right. Like I'm aware of the fact that there are certainly people at Apple who feel exactly the way I do.

00:14:07 ◼   ► They're just not being heard.

00:14:08 ◼   ► And so I don't want to say Apple doesn't get it.

00:14:11 ◼   ► I think there are parts of Apple that do get it and I think even the parts that maybe don't get it kind of get it but they're like they just don't care and they don't think it's important enough and and so all I can do is complain.

00:14:22 ◼   ► I guess so they're sorry I did it again.

00:14:25 ◼   ► Well, you know, we're doing the best we can out here, you know.

00:14:29 ◼   ► I wanted to just do some follow out Jason to a wonderful movie that was put together by a friend of the show Ian Anderson.

00:14:40 ◼   ► Ian was with us at the Relay 10 event and he was going to be making a video and he ended up making this beautiful thing which is kind of like honestly it feels like like a love letter to Relay.

00:14:53 ◼   ► And he spoke to all of the hosts that were there including you and everybody including you had some very lovely, incredible, heartwarming things to say about what we've built together over the last 10 years because Relay is now 10 years old as of yesterday when we're recording.

00:15:10 ◼   ► And it's a 15 minute video.

00:15:12 ◼   ► I've watched it three times.

00:15:14 ◼   ► I cried all the way through all three times.

00:15:17 ◼   ► It's very special to me and I hope that people check it out.

00:15:21 ◼   ► And also if you subscribe to Ian's channel on Friday, I think this coming Friday, he's going to be putting up a two hour interview that he did with me and Steven.

00:15:30 ◼   ► So we both sat down with Ian and spoke to him like an hour about Relay and he's putting that together too.

00:15:36 ◼   ► But he ended up making something I think wholly more heartwarming.

00:15:40 ◼   ► And yeah, everyone that I've seen that's watched it in our Discord and on social media is just like, it was incredible.

00:15:47 ◼   ► So I hope that people will give it a time and again, I would like to thank you in person because I have waited until now to say that it meant so much to me the stuff that you said and I loved it very much.

00:15:57 ◼   ► That's great.

00:15:59 ◼   ► Ian literally just said, "Jason, here's a microphone.

00:16:02 ◼   ► I'm going to ask you a bunch of questions."

00:16:03 ◼   ► And I had to speak extemporaneously.

00:16:06 ◼   ► It was a little before we went on for the show.

00:16:10 ◼   ► So it was a lot.

00:16:11 ◼   ► You got to get those raw emotions baby.

00:16:12 ◼   ► Let's go.

00:16:13 ◼   ► And I remember nothing about anything there.

00:16:15 ◼   ► So yeah, I'm glad.

00:16:17 ◼   ► Very sweet.

00:16:18 ◼   ► It was just super nice to me that so many people said such similar things unprompted from each other.

00:16:25 ◼   ► Which just made me feel real good about this thing that we've all built together over the last 10 years.

00:16:30 ◼   ► And I'm very thankful, feeling very thankful this past weekend.

00:16:34 ◼   ► So I hope people check it out because I think it's worth the 15 minutes.

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00:17:52 ◼   ► Because whenever they show me a new exercise, I want to feel confident and comfortable with it.

00:17:56 ◼   ► So they have instructions that are written but then also videos that are shot from multiple angles.

00:18:00 ◼   ► So I can watch these and I know what's going on.

00:18:02 ◼   ► But then once I've learned them, I don't need to look at that stuff.

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00:19:06 ◼   ► It's time to lawyer up Jason Snow.

00:19:10 ◼   ► Clunk, clunk.

00:19:11 ◼   ► Fortnite is back on iPhone.

00:19:14 ◼   ► Via the Epic Games Store and Alt Store Pal.

00:19:18 ◼   ► So we knew this was coming. It has now happened. The Epic Games Store has launched. Fortnite is on there and a couple of other games as well.

00:19:24 ◼   ► Epic has said that they're going to expand this out as time goes on.

00:19:28 ◼   ► And they're going to be expanding and extending the deals and arrangements they have on the Epic Games Store and other platforms to this.

00:19:36 ◼   ► Namely, Epic's cut is 12% of transaction fees.

00:19:41 ◼   ► So that's one of the things that they'll be extending for other games that want to join.

00:19:45 ◼   ► But there's been loads of interviews with Tim Sweeney talking about how things like the core technology fee makes him think it's probably not going to be a lot of games that want to join.

00:19:53 ◼   ► But nevertheless, Alt Store has also announced that they have received a grant from Epic which they're going to be using to pay the core technology fee for their users.

00:20:03 ◼   ► Alt Store say that this basically no longer means that at the moment you have to give them a fee and it covers development and also covers the CTF.

00:20:12 ◼   ► And it's an annual fee that you pay just for access in Alt Store.

00:20:15 ◼   ► So now no users will have to pay this going forward. This is new customers and no renewals will occur for previous customers.

00:20:22 ◼   ► These two things are epic new business because they're also putting Fortnite on other stores as well.

00:20:28 ◼   ► There's like more stores than just Alt Store. Other stores are going to launch. They're going to put Fortnite there.

00:20:32 ◼   ► Basically, it seems like they're doing everything they can to undermine Apple and increase the desire for sideloading worldwide.

00:20:39 ◼   ► Because all of the headlines that I've seen, which I understand why the headline is this way, the one on the verge, Fortnite is back on the iPhone.

00:20:47 ◼   ► Mhm. Just not your iPhone.

00:20:50 ◼   ► Exactly. Unless you're in the European Union, that's not your iPhone.

00:20:54 ◼   ► But people will want Fortnite back on their iPhone. Especially they have timed this so well, Jason. I don't know how familiar you are with this.

00:21:01 ◼   ► It's their Marvel season just started. It was all timed.

00:21:04 ◼   ► So they know what they're doing. They mean business.

00:21:07 ◼   ► They know what they're doing. I don't particularly like Tim Sweeney and the way he goes about things.

00:21:13 ◼   ► And I think that some of the stunts that they pulled with Apple were counterproductive.

00:21:19 ◼   ► But I appreciate their sticking with this. And this is the great experiment. We'll see where it leads.

00:21:27 ◼   ► But I honestly don't know where it will lead. I think that they're just trying to continue putting pressure on them.

00:21:33 ◼   ► And again, is it self-serving? Of course it is. But I do also think that they are, like they have turned their back on other revenue around the world on iPhone in order to make this point.

00:21:45 ◼   ► And maybe they're playing a long game here, but I think they're also standing up for something that they believe. So good for them.

00:21:52 ◼   ► I can make a catty remark about that there's taking a percentage for games that are in their store because isn't it supposed to be about gatekeeping, et cetera, et cetera.

00:22:00 ◼   ► But if you don't like it, you don't have to go on their store. You can go to a different store because, again, there's different marketplaces in the EU.

00:22:07 ◼   ► The Epic Games Store is quite complicated. There's a lot more to get into, but they are a better partner to their partners.

00:22:16 ◼   ► They frequently fund games and then take a cut. So there's a different scenario going on there.

00:22:24 ◼   ► But I mean, this is the thing. I don't think they said they don't believe Apple should take nothing. But I think what they said. Anyway.

00:22:33 ◼   ► You were talking about putting pressure and it making changes. Starting in iOS 18.1, Apple is going to be allowing developers access to the NFC chip and the benefits of the secure element.

00:22:46 ◼   ► I don't know when this was changed from enclave to element, but Apple refers to it as the secure element.

00:22:51 ◼   ► So what is this going to mean? I'm going to tell you right now, this is quite complicated. I read three articles four times today.

00:22:58 ◼   ► So there's a few things going on here. Financial institutions will be able to offer their own contactless payment options as well as other contactless payments in stores.

00:23:06 ◼   ► Like a supermarket could have its own. I think Walmart, for example, you can pay with a QR code or something and they would be able to basically have their own.

00:23:15 ◼   ► But this will also be for keys, car keys, house keys, that kind of stuff. Hotel keys, transit cards. Like the Oyster card in London is just like an NFC card.

00:23:25 ◼   ► But you can't have it in Apple Pay. But maybe they would do that. Corporate badges, student IDs, loyalty cards, event tickets.

00:23:32 ◼   ► Apple say to incorporate this new solution in iPhone apps, developers will need to enter into a commercial agreement with Apple, request the NFC and SE entitlement and pay the associated fees.

00:23:44 ◼   ► Of course there are fees. But I do like that there is like, not anyone can just like do this. Like you have to like go to them and arrange it because you're really kind of going deep into the system for access to this.

00:23:56 ◼   ► This is going to be available in iOS 18.1 in Australia, Brazil, Canada, Japan, New Zealand, the UK and the US.

00:24:03 ◼   ► Now, I want to read from Apple's developer document the very high level of how this works. Because there is a bunch of things that developers will be able to have access to.

00:24:14 ◼   ► So, first, NFC transactions. Users of eligible iOS apps can initiate NFC transactions from within the app with compatible NFC terminals.

00:24:24 ◼   ► So you can open up an app, go to a terminal, you can hold your phone on it and you can double click and pay.

00:24:29 ◼   ► Default app settings. Users can choose any eligible app as their default contactless app which will enable the app to support field detect and double click features.

00:24:40 ◼   ► These are, field detect is, the default contactless app automatically launches when a user presents their iPhone to a compatible NFC terminal and after user authentication.

00:24:50 ◼   ► So, for example, in transit here in the UK, if you put your iPhone on an oyster card thing, it pops up. It automatically brings up Apple Pay and then you can double click.

00:25:00 ◼   ► And then also double click. The default contactless app automatically launches when the user double clicks on the side button or the home button and does the authentication.

00:25:08 ◼   ► So, a user can choose for any app that is in the kind of NFC, given the NFC entitlement, to just replace Apple Pay if they want to do that.

00:25:18 ◼   ► Replace, I guess, Wallet, right, is what it's replacing.

00:25:21 ◼   ► Yeah, what is the wallet. Good point, good point, good point.

00:25:24 ◼   ► There's also support for non-default apps. Eligible apps running in the foreground can prevent the system default contactless app from launching and interfering with the NFC transaction.

00:25:33 ◼   ► So this is, I guess, if you were in your supermarket and your supermarket had its own thing and you were in the supermarket's app and you held it up, it wouldn't bring up Apple Pay.

00:25:43 ◼   ► Then it could bring up the NFC thing but you don't have to make it as the default.

00:25:46 ◼   ► This is really interesting, really weird, really complicated. I will be intrigued to see what actually this looks like when it launches.

00:25:54 ◼   ► And I desperately hope it does not mean we're going to start seeing banks pulling out of Apple Pay because they want you to use theirs instead.

00:26:01 ◼   ► That is what I worry about in seeing this. Every bank is going to be like, "Great, now we're just going to do this."

00:26:09 ◼   ► So my hope is, and what I think Apple's probably going to do, they're going to price these fees in such a way that it just means that you might as well do both.

00:26:17 ◼   ► But I really hope this isn't the case, man.

00:26:20 ◼   ► So this is what I assume. I assume, and this is just because this is how Apple's been behaving,

00:26:26 ◼   ► I assume that the associated commercial agreement and fees will be the equivalent of what Apple has done with other stuff where they say, "Oh, you want to be outside of our Aegis as the wallet app?

00:26:41 ◼   ► Okay, as long as the reason you want to be outside is not to get around paying us because you're still going to have to pay us, but you can build a separate thing and not be an Apple Wallet."

00:26:56 ◼   ► Which is competition in a sense, right? Which is a developer who wants to build something that doesn't make sense in Apple Wallet or is not supported by Apple Wallet could build it in their app and not worry about Apple Wallet.

00:27:10 ◼   ► But Apple still has to approve that app. Apple still has to sign a commercial agreement with them. So is it really that different? I don't know.

00:27:22 ◼   ► And it does, I agree with you, I am a little concerned as well. I mean, the advantage of having everything be in the Wallet app is everything's in the Wallet app and I don't have to worry about it.

00:27:30 ◼   ► And if this is not the case, then that's less good.

00:27:36 ◼   ► But at the same time, I like the idea that I could open up an app and just do a bunch of NFC stuff in that app. You know, like tickets or hotel keys or even like a badge to get into a building or something.

00:27:51 ◼   ► Like that kind of stuff is good, but I worry about the financial institutions part of it and what might happen to Apple.

00:27:59 ◼   ► Yeah, I don't know.

00:28:00 ◼   ► So all of this, the reason I brought this up is like pushing, all of this is similar to what Apple already announced they were doing for the EU with opening.

00:28:08 ◼   ► But like they have way less information about that, so I'm not sure how exactly they overlap, but I think they overlap pretty close.

00:28:15 ◼   ► But I think there are going to be some separate things that are going on, which is why they're kind of being very restrictive about the countries that this is going to act in.

00:28:24 ◼   ► But this is like, again, the EU made them do something, so now Apple is doing it worldwide and maybe it will bring some good, maybe it will bring some bad.

00:28:32 ◼   ► Yeah, we'll see.

00:28:33 ◼   ► Spotify is now able to show the prices of the various plans that they have available in their iOS app in the European Union as a result of Apple's legal battle with the European Commission, in which the $2 billion fine was proposed against them in March.

00:28:47 ◼   ► As a result of this, something called the Music Streaming Services Entitlement was created. This appears to be able to provide a developer of a music streaming app who opts into this, the ability to add one link out to the developer's website to explain how to purchase these plans.

00:29:03 ◼   ► You cannot do any purchasing in the app itself without also opting into the new developer terms and paying the CTF.

00:29:08 ◼   ► From Spotify's, what they're talking about, it doesn't look like they're actually putting this link in or talking about the link, but you can now go and see how much a Spotify plan costs, which is awesome.

00:29:22 ◼   ► Great.

00:29:23 ◼   ► This is, just think about this.

00:29:27 ◼   ► Spotify has spent years in a legal battle with Apple for the right to list their prices and link to their website.

00:29:36 ◼   ► Kind of.

00:29:37 ◼   ► They can't even link to the normal website.

00:29:39 ◼   ► They can't link to the purchase plan.

00:29:40 ◼   ► They can link to a place which explains how someone could potentially buy something.

00:29:45 ◼   ► Imagine, the money.

00:29:46 ◼   ► The money that has gone into this for years.

00:29:48 ◼   ► Yeah, just for something that, and this is the thing, and I know, I mean, we've talked about it.

00:29:53 ◼   ► I know Jon Gruber's talked about it a lot.

00:29:55 ◼   ► This is one of the most nettlesome things that Apple does because this is like the biggest bit of rent-seeking behavior.

00:30:01 ◼   ► And I just, just to say it again, making people aware of things that happen outside of an app and outside of Apple's control is not a big deal.

00:30:13 ◼   ► And yet Apple treats it like, oh, every link to the internet is a scary thing that you must be warned away from and information needs to not be shared.

00:30:21 ◼   ► And it's the difference between saying, look, buying it in the app using Apple system is super convenient.

00:30:26 ◼   ► And so you should do that.

00:30:28 ◼   ► But if you don't want to, you can also just go to the web because we all do it.

00:30:34 ◼   ► It's fine.

00:30:35 ◼   ► And Apple doesn't want to do that.

00:30:38 ◼   ► And they can say lots of reasons why, but the bottom line is they want all the money.

00:30:43 ◼   ► That's it.

00:30:44 ◼   ► That's the only reason.

00:30:45 ◼   ► I just, I can't believe that Spotify spent all this time and money for something as basic as telling their customers what the prices of their services are and linking to their website.

00:30:55 ◼   ► Like, come on, what are we doing here?

00:30:57 ◼   ► And speaking of wanting all the money, I wanted to get your take on the Apple Patreon thing.

00:31:02 ◼   ► And we mentioned this very briefly.

00:31:04 ◼   ► Money, money, money, who wants all the money?

00:31:06 ◼   ► It's Apple.

00:31:08 ◼   ► It's not a jingle.

00:31:10 ◼   ► No.

00:31:11 ◼   ► That was us singing on a podcast.

00:31:12 ◼   ► It's just us singing.

00:31:13 ◼   ► That's a different thing.

00:31:14 ◼   ► That's a single.

00:31:15 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:31:16 ◼   ► So just a quick disclosure about the thing.

00:31:18 ◼   ► We both work with memberful.

00:31:19 ◼   ► Memberful is owned by Patreon.

00:31:21 ◼   ► I just think that's worth mentioning.

00:31:22 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:31:23 ◼   ► Real AFM, Incomparable, Six Colors are all memberful plans.

00:31:25 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:31:26 ◼   ► And they've also been sponsored on these shows before.

00:31:28 ◼   ► We've had memberful as a sponsor.

00:31:30 ◼   ► So we mentioned this very briefly on the show last week because it happened, it broke last Monday.

00:31:35 ◼   ► But it was too big a thing for us to really think about and digest.

00:31:39 ◼   ► And I've actually, I gave a lot of my own thoughts about SunConnected last week.

00:31:44 ◼   ► But I wanted to know your take.

00:31:45 ◼   ► So essentially, Apple is requiring Patreon to give them a cut of all memberships that are started in the Patreon iOS app from November.

00:31:55 ◼   ► This does not count any existing payments or memberships.

00:31:59 ◼   ► So like if somebody signed up in the iOS app today, Apple's not going to get any money from that person.

00:32:04 ◼   ► It is 30% of all iOS only signups from November of this year onwards.

00:32:09 ◼   ► What do you think about this?

00:32:11 ◼   ► It's also, they changed, they used to have a thing where if you didn't post a thing during a span, you didn't get charged.

00:32:17 ◼   ► And that is not possible with this scenario either.

00:32:19 ◼   ► Yes.

00:32:21 ◼   ► I mean, I don't like this.

00:32:25 ◼   ► I think that there are a couple of ways to look at this.

00:32:27 ◼   ► And one is, what is Apple doing?

00:32:31 ◼   ► Because I've heard, there have definitely been threads about this.

00:32:34 ◼   ► What is Apple's policy about having to offer in-app purchases?

00:32:40 ◼   ► Because I've also heard from people who've developed apps where Apple said, "No, this is based on buying something outside.

00:32:46 ◼   ► And even if you don't tell anybody it exists, it doesn't matter, you need to also make it available for an app purchase."

00:32:51 ◼   ► Apple's rules for the App Store is if you offer a purchase, you must also offer in-app purchase.

00:33:01 ◼   ► So like if someone could buy your thing on the web and it's like a digital good, they want you to offer it also in your app and also offer an in-app purchase for it.

00:33:11 ◼   ► Yeah. It's just, and that's, I think that's ridiculous.

00:33:15 ◼   ► So it doesn't, there's a bunch of things going on here.

00:33:18 ◼   ► First off, I don't actually do any Patreon in the in-app purchase.

00:33:21 ◼   ► It makes me think, was it John Gruber who said this?

00:33:23 ◼   ► Somebody said they should just shut off their iOS app and use the web.

00:33:28 ◼   ► I use the web for Patreon and it's fine.

00:33:31 ◼   ► Clearly it's important to their business, right?

00:33:33 ◼   ► Yeah, I get it.

00:33:34 ◼   ► The iOS app must be important to Patreon or they would have just gotten rid of it.

00:33:38 ◼   ► It lets creators push notifications into iPhones.

00:33:40 ◼   ► I get it.

00:33:42 ◼   ► There are actually like community stuff in it. Like people can have like group chats instead of like a Discord.

00:33:48 ◼   ► I don't, so things I don't like.

00:33:51 ◼   ► I don't like Apple saying, "If you have an app, you have to offer in-app purchases."

00:33:57 ◼   ► Especially since you have to offer in-app purchases and pretend that you don't know where else people can buy this thing because it's against the rules.

00:34:04 ◼   ► That I think is just fundamentally not great.

00:34:07 ◼   ► But I also think that this is Apple trying to insert itself in a product that already has a middleman.

00:34:15 ◼   ► So it's trying to invalidate Patreon's business model like it made it impossible for Amazon to, or ComiXology for that matter, right, to sell in-app.

00:34:25 ◼   ► Because that means two middlemen, they're both taking their cut.

00:34:29 ◼   ► It can't pencil out. It doesn't work that way and so they can't do it.

00:34:33 ◼   ► Not great.

00:34:35 ◼   ► And the whole idea of the creators being taxed for this, like one of the problems is because Patreon rolls everything together into a single account and then pays creators,

00:34:47 ◼   ► they have, they're not eligible for the small business plan even though almost all their creators are.

00:34:52 ◼   ► So it's a 30% cut instead of 15.

00:34:55 ◼   ► So that's the top of it.

00:34:57 ◼   ► It seems to be misguided in the sense that people creating art is not something that Apple should actually take a cut of, I think.

00:35:06 ◼   ► I think it makes, I mean the optics, it makes Apple look bad, but I think also it doesn't really make a lot of sense for them to do it this way.

00:35:12 ◼   ► It doesn't pass the sniff test for logic.

00:35:14 ◼   ► Like in a bunch of ways.

00:35:16 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:35:17 ◼   ► And I think also this is a great example.

00:35:22 ◼   ► I mean, first off, it's Apple's one size fits all approach here, which is Apple doesn't think about the creators at Patreon.

00:35:29 ◼   ► Apple thinks about Patreon.

00:35:30 ◼   ► Apple is focused on taking its cut from this company called Patreon that's making a lot of money.

00:35:36 ◼   ► Apple wants its cut.

00:35:38 ◼   ► Not thinking about the fact, at least not aggressively thinking about the fact that it, Patreon is actually a middleman, a facilitator for a bunch of individual independent creators.

00:35:47 ◼   ► Yeah, but you're just, you're just brainless if, you know what I mean?

00:35:50 ◼   ► I know what you're saying, but that is like such, and I agree with you.

00:35:54 ◼   ► Oh yeah.

00:35:55 ◼   ► But it's a brainless thought.

00:35:56 ◼   ► This is what I'm saying is, is you're looking at it in this certain way because you've decided that that's how you're going to look at the world, even though there's very clearly isn't that kind of thing.

00:36:05 ◼   ► But they've decided, it's like, I'm sorry.

00:36:07 ◼   ► And it's that same thing, right?

00:36:08 ◼   ► Which is, I'm sorry, our hands are tied.

00:36:09 ◼   ► These are the rules.

00:36:10 ◼   ► It's like, you made the rules.

00:36:11 ◼   ► You make the rules.

00:36:12 ◼   ► Your hands are not tied.

00:36:13 ◼   ► You made the rules.

00:36:15 ◼   ► So what are you doing here?

00:36:16 ◼   ► And in the end, just stepping back, what does it look like?

00:36:21 ◼   ► It is Apple muscling into a whole bunch of independent creators who make a small amount of money on the internet and saying, "Hey, we want our money."

00:36:29 ◼   ► And it's like, why do you want the money?

00:36:30 ◼   ► Patreon's doing all the work.

00:36:32 ◼   ► Patreon built our app for us.

00:36:34 ◼   ► Patreon's doing the backend.

00:36:35 ◼   ► We're cutting in Patreon.

00:36:36 ◼   ► What has Apple given us?

00:36:37 ◼   ► And Apple's response is, "Well, we built the platform that the Patreon app runs on."

00:36:44 ◼   ► And it's like, well, okay.

00:36:47 ◼   ► So why aren't you entitled to a portion of what Patreon takes from us?

00:36:51 ◼   ► Why are you entitled to 30% of what people are giving to me as an independent creator?

00:36:57 ◼   ► It just looks bad.

00:36:58 ◼   ► It doesn't pass the sniff test.

00:37:00 ◼   ► You're absolutely right.

00:37:02 ◼   ► And again, this is actually an easy one.

00:37:09 ◼   ► This is a great example of Apple playing by a playbook from when they were down on their luck and desperate for money, and now they're rich and they're still playing by that playbook.

00:37:25 ◼   ► And it makes them look bad.

00:37:27 ◼   ► I would say it's probably as bad a look as the hydraulic press ad was, but it's actually actual harm being done to people.

00:37:43 ◼   ► They're actually doing the thing that people were upset about that time.

00:37:45 ◼   ► They're actually doing it with us.

00:37:46 ◼   ► It is Patreon creators in the hydraulic press now.

00:37:48 ◼   ► Yeah, exactly.

00:37:50 ◼   ► Well, that was just an interpretation before.

00:37:52 ◼   ► I had a thought about this and looking through Patreon's rules, and it clarified something to me, which I feel like I'm going to keep talking about now as people end up going to hit us a lot.

00:38:02 ◼   ► Apple are perfectly happy with their customers paying more for digital goods than everybody else, because they have zero problem with you putting the 30% on top.

00:38:15 ◼   ► And the argument is, if it's so easy to do an in-app purchase, then you pay extra for it, if it makes it super easy.

00:38:26 ◼   ► Like, okay.

00:38:27 ◼   ► Like, all right.

00:38:28 ◼   ► I mean, I think that there's my frustration with Apple's in-app purchase thing is they don't want to compete.

00:38:33 ◼   ► They want to hide and have this 30% and not compete and maybe have to lower their take in order to make it.

00:38:38 ◼   ► But as a platform owner who has built-in payment systems that are just right there in their APIs and everything like that, should Apple offer that and take a cut and say, look, we made it really easy for you.

00:38:48 ◼   ► Just give us our cut, and it's all built in, and it's using their existing credit card, and you don't have to worry about it.

00:38:53 ◼   ► That's not an unreasonable proposition.

00:38:55 ◼   ► It's all the other stuff that's been built around it, which is you can't tell people about the other things.

00:38:59 ◼   ► You can't link to the other things.

00:39:00 ◼   ► There are no other alternatives if you're in our store unless you're in the EU.

00:39:04 ◼   ► This is your only choice.

00:39:05 ◼   ► It's 30%.

00:39:06 ◼   ► That's the total number.

00:39:07 ◼   ► We have very specific rules about it, and you're covered under it, so everybody is going to be covered under it.

00:39:12 ◼   ► That's where it all goes from being not an unreasonable argument about Apple's convenience, the convenience of in-app purchases, to being more like a racket.

00:39:22 ◼   ► It just bums me out, man.

00:39:24 ◼   ► Yep.

00:39:25 ◼   ► It's just bums me out.

00:39:26 ◼   ► This is the feelings part of the podcast where we say we're kind of tired of talking about all this stuff.

00:39:32 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:39:33 ◼   ► Because the bottom line is I didn't get into this, and you didn't get into this, to talk about legal policies and who gets cut of what in big business.

00:39:42 ◼   ► We got into this for enthusiasm about the products and about what people can do with the products and how we use them and how other people use them to make their lives better and have fun and all of those things.

00:39:54 ◼   ► None of this is that.

00:39:55 ◼   ► I think there's value in understanding Apple's business, but it's the summer of fun.

00:40:03 ◼   ► Summer of fun.

00:40:04 ◼   ► This year has reminded me of 2020.

00:40:06 ◼   ► It's just rough.

00:40:08 ◼   ► Just in that, in summer of 2020, there was no break in the news.

00:40:14 ◼   ► It's kept going for the whole summer.

00:40:15 ◼   ► Yes.

00:40:16 ◼   ► This year, there has been no break in the news.

00:40:18 ◼   ► The news has just kept happening.

00:40:21 ◼   ► The thing about this is it's kind of in between a rock and a hard place.

00:40:27 ◼   ► This is, I think, interesting stuff that is happening to Apple.

00:40:33 ◼   ► We cover Apple.

00:40:34 ◼   ► We talk about Apple.

00:40:35 ◼   ► But it's also depressing.

00:40:40 ◼   ► But I wouldn't want to just pretend it didn't exist.

00:40:44 ◼   ► And we just carry on like it didn't exist.

00:40:47 ◼   ► But I don't want to get lost in it either.

00:40:49 ◼   ► So basically, what I've been thinking of, I think once we get through this period,

00:40:56 ◼   ► like getting up to the iPhone, right?

00:40:58 ◼   ► A couple of weeks for that.

00:40:59 ◼   ► Potentially after the iPhone, I might readjust a little bit how much I'm putting in.

00:41:05 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:41:07 ◼   ► But I'm not going to ignore it.

00:41:09 ◼   ► So like this Patreon thing, would have spoke about it, right?

00:41:12 ◼   ► But maybe not the Spotify thing, maybe not the Fortnite thing if I was editing this down.

00:41:18 ◼   ► But I want to complete the threads of the stuff we started talking about.

00:41:21 ◼   ► Yeah, I think we need to talk about it.

00:41:23 ◼   ► And lawyer up, you know, the artwork is beautiful and all that.

00:41:27 ◼   ► I think we're going to continue talking about it.

00:41:29 ◼   ► But I do think that there's a point at which we have to say as the kind of curators of the content of the show,

00:41:33 ◼   ► that it's too much.

00:41:35 ◼   ► And we don't want to do it.

00:41:36 ◼   ► And I can say from personal experience, Stephen Hackett and I did a podcast called "Download."

00:41:41 ◼   ► And the year plus that we did it was the year where every single week was a terrible Facebook story

00:41:48 ◼   ► about how Facebook had done another thing to ruin people's privacy and change election results

00:41:56 ◼   ► and lead to potential genocides.

00:41:59 ◼   ► And just it was one terrible story after another to the point where we added a segment called

00:42:04 ◼   ► "The Fuzzy Puppy Update" because we were so depressed at the end of the segment.

00:42:07 ◼   ► Well, we have "Rumor Roundup" kind of next and that's a lot of fun.

00:42:10 ◼   ► And the number one reason we stopped doing "Download" is because it was dispiriting to cover that terrible stuff all the time.

00:42:16 ◼   ► It's not what we got into this to do.

00:42:18 ◼   ► And we didn't want to do it anymore.

00:42:19 ◼   ► And we have had the luxury of just saying, "Let's just stop this."

00:42:24 ◼   ► And we're not going to stop covering the stuff on "Upgrade," but I do feel like at some point,

00:42:29 ◼   ► we're going to need to recalibrate a little bit because it's a lot.

00:42:33 ◼   ► There's a lot going on.

00:42:34 ◼   ► And we can't not talk about stuff that Apple's doing that we don't agree with or we think is bad.

00:42:39 ◼   ► And we have to talk about it.

00:42:42 ◼   ► But there's so much of it right now and there's a limit to what we can do.

00:42:47 ◼   ► Well, it's like I said last week, right?

00:42:49 ◼   ► And I've been thinking about it a lot.

00:42:51 ◼   ► I think I said it on this show.

00:42:52 ◼   ► I don't remember if I said it on the show.

00:42:53 ◼   ► I'm going to say it again now anyway.

00:42:54 ◼   ► Okay.

00:42:55 ◼   ► Do it.

00:42:56 ◼   ► And Federico had a version of this himself too where he said the two Apples.

00:43:00 ◼   ► But for me, it's just that I'm so happy the products are good.

00:43:04 ◼   ► Yeah, because I was talking about the Mac Molaise time, right?

00:43:07 ◼   ► I'm so happy the products are good right now.

00:43:10 ◼   ► Imagine if the butterfly keyboard was out there now.

00:43:12 ◼   ► Yes, imagine that, right?

00:43:13 ◼   ► Then it would be like, I don't know what I would do.

00:43:16 ◼   ► The products are good right now and the software is good right now by and large.

00:43:23 ◼   ► But the products are good at least.

00:43:24 ◼   ► And they're doing interesting stuff.

00:43:26 ◼   ► So it at least gives some balance.

00:43:29 ◼   ► And basically, just going forward, we're still going to talk about the stuff.

00:43:34 ◼   ► But I think I'm going to start tapering some of these bits off a little bit.

00:43:38 ◼   ► And just try and cover the biggest things.

00:43:41 ◼   ► I don't want to do this every week.

00:43:43 ◼   ► But I don't want to let them off, right?

00:43:47 ◼   ► This Patreon thing, we would have spoke about this no matter what.

00:43:51 ◼   ► It's so unnecessary.

00:43:54 ◼   ► It's so unnecessary.

00:43:55 ◼   ► And I'm going to tell you, having spent decades now understanding Apple's mindset,

00:44:00 ◼   ► I'm sure the mindset here is essentially, "Oh, Patreon hides behind their creators."

00:44:09 ◼   ► But they're the one that's built a big business taking money from the creators.

00:44:13 ◼   ► And we've let them sort of slide and not taken our cut.

00:44:16 ◼   ► But they're taking advantage of us now.

00:44:20 ◼   ► Patreon the corporation.

00:44:21 ◼   ► And we're not going to let them, we're going to put the screws to them.

00:44:24 ◼   ► I guarantee you that's what they're thinking internally.

00:44:27 ◼   ► And let me say, Patreon is not without fault here.

00:44:31 ◼   ► Patreon has chosen a path that they want to go with their business that makes it more than maybe the initial plans of Patreon.

00:44:38 ◼   ► Patreon made changes to the terms that creators are unhappy with.

00:44:45 ◼   ► Patreon is not without fault here at all.

00:44:48 ◼   ► And I do think that part of the reason Apple does this is that Apple perceives Patreon as being a business

00:44:56 ◼   ► that is trying to make a lot of money from creators while skating by Apple and giving Apple its cut.

00:45:03 ◼   ► That said, this is an own goal on Apple's part.

00:45:08 ◼   ► Because in the end, you make your policies and you can adjust them.

00:45:13 ◼   ► And so the argument of like, "Well, but Apple had to do this because if they let Patreon slide, then somebody else is going to slide."

00:45:19 ◼   ► The answer is no.

00:45:20 ◼   ► Apple can make a new entitlement, a new system, a new business term.

00:45:24 ◼   ► They can say, "Oh, if you're passing on something to an independent creator and you have a certain..."

00:45:31 ◼   ► Like, they could build a whole little program around it.

00:45:33 ◼   ► They did it for a different type of creator, the big Hollywood creators.

00:45:36 ◼   ► They created reader apps for them.

00:45:38 ◼   ► Yeah. So they could do it if they wanted.

00:45:41 ◼   ► And maybe they will. Maybe this is phase one.

00:45:45 ◼   ► But the fact is, they should not have done this just unilaterally like this.

00:45:48 ◼   ► It makes them look really bad.

00:45:50 ◼   ► And the fact that it's... I think the most galling thing to me is that it's the 30%.

00:45:54 ◼   ► So they don't even get the discount. They don't even get the half off.

00:45:58 ◼   ► Even though each individual creator probably deserves it, because Patreon doesn't as a whole.

00:46:05 ◼   ► And so they're going to put the screws to Patreon there.

00:46:07 ◼   ► I do think in the end, that's probably what's going on here.

00:46:10 ◼   ► Apple views Patreon as a competitor or as a business partner that is not giving Apple its fair share.

00:46:17 ◼   ► I don't think they're thinking about the creators at all.

00:46:20 ◼   ► Which is obvious, because if you thought about it, you wouldn't do this.

00:46:24 ◼   ► So, anyway.

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00:48:52 ◼   ► Room around up time, partner.

00:48:55 ◼   ► Yeehaw.

00:48:57 ◼   ► Your favourite topic. Mark Gurman has published another robot.

00:49:01 ◼   ► Another robot. Another report about his tabletop robot.

00:49:04 ◼   ► Robot or not.

00:49:06 ◼   ► Robot or not.

00:49:08 ◼   ► You can check out Robot or Not on the incomparable if you have no idea what that is.

00:49:13 ◼   ► Yeah, that's right. All those theme songs we sang by Lex Friedman, maker of Upgrade Jingles.

00:49:17 ◼   ► Indeed. That's what he's best known for.

00:49:20 ◼   ► Oh, man. Jingles.

00:49:22 ◼   ► I'll put a link in the show notes for Robot or Not.

00:49:24 ◼   ► So, Mark Gurman has posted a quite lengthy report about Apple's robotics plans.

00:49:30 ◼   ► So, the first thing is a product that essentially combines the look of an iPad on a robotic limb.

00:49:38 ◼   ► Yes, it's going to look like the iMac G4.

00:49:41 ◼   ► So, I'm going to stop you here.

00:49:44 ◼   ► Why?

00:49:45 ◼   ► I'm going to stop you here because I'm going to say it again.

00:49:52 ◼   ► A kitchen speaker with a base and an arm and a screen that rotates or goes up and down or whatever is not a robot.

00:50:06 ◼   ► It's not a robot.

00:50:08 ◼   ► Are you allowed to give that distinction?

00:50:10 ◼   ► Yes. I allow it.

00:50:12 ◼   ► On this show, you say what the robots are.

00:50:15 ◼   ► Well, I can cite. We had this question for John Saracusa and he said if it just sits on a counter and moves around within itself and it's not skittering around and doing stuff on the counter, it is not a robot.

00:50:29 ◼   ► It is moving automatically, but it is not a robot.

00:50:32 ◼   ► And look, we love Mark Gurman. He gets good scoops. He's very good at scooping.

00:50:39 ◼   ► His insistence on calling this thing a robot is killing me.

00:50:44 ◼   ► It's like a HomePod version of the Amazon show, Echo Show, right?

00:50:54 ◼   ► It's a kitchen speaker that does FaceTime and apparently it will move the screen around, which some other things also do.

00:51:02 ◼   ► I think the Facebook one does it.

00:51:04 ◼   ► Also not a robot. It's just not a robot.

00:51:06 ◼   ► But he's packed it in this narrative of Apple has a lot of robotic things going on.

00:51:10 ◼   ► And there are other robotics things that he talks about in here.

00:51:13 ◼   ► Maybe more robots.

00:51:14 ◼   ► Which make me roll my eyes because I don't think that there are going to be anything we see anytime soon, if ever, probably never.

00:51:19 ◼   ► Sure, sure.

00:51:20 ◼   ► Whereas this seems like it's a real product.

00:51:22 ◼   ► But to call it an iPad on a robotic limb, it feels like this is the very definition of the parable of the blind men and the elephant.

00:51:32 ◼   ► Where it's like you're describing a product that we can all pretty much guess and I would never describe it as an iPad on a robotic limb.

00:51:40 ◼   ► I would call it a kitchen speaker on an arm.

00:51:42 ◼   ► It's more intriguing to call it a robot though, right?

00:51:46 ◼   ► Well, that's why it's narrative building anyway.

00:51:48 ◼   ► It's not a robot.

00:51:49 ◼   ► It's a home pod with a screen that can move around, that can pivot or something.

00:51:57 ◼   ► It's not, like I'll just say, unless it can move around on my countertop, it is not a robot.

00:52:03 ◼   ► That's it.

00:52:04 ◼   ► Quote, "The device is envisioned as a smart home command center, video conferencing machine and remote controlled home security tool."

00:52:12 ◼   ► Gorman says that Apple now has several hundred employees working on the project.

00:52:17 ◼   ► It is expected that there could be a debut of it in 2026 or 2027 at around $1000.

00:52:23 ◼   ► And there has been internal concern about the price of such a device and if it would attract a market.

00:52:28 ◼   ► But Tim Cook and John Turness are in favor of this project, which has now become, quote, "The sole responsibility of Kevin Lynch."

00:52:37 ◼   ► Okay.

00:52:38 ◼   ► Here's a longer quote.

00:52:40 ◼   ► "The idea is for the tabletop product" -- doesn't call it a robot there --

00:52:43 ◼   ► "the tabletop product to be primarily controlled using the Siri digital assistant and upcoming features in Apple intelligence.

00:52:49 ◼   ► The device could respond to commands such as 'look at me' by repositioning the screen to focus on the person saying the words,

00:52:56 ◼   ► say, during a video call. It could also understand different voices and adjust its focus accordingly.

00:53:01 ◼   ► Current models in testing run a customized version of iPadOS."

00:53:05 ◼   ► Okay, first off, that's describing center stage, except you have to tell it to do it.

00:53:09 ◼   ► And I get the idea that center stage has limitations and if you can actually move the camera around, it's better.

00:53:15 ◼   ► Although, again, what a weird example to say, "Look at me" when, like, during a video call, right?

00:53:23 ◼   ► Like, well, during a video call, it should just look at you.

00:53:26 ◼   ► I mean, I'm now the only commandant of my robot.

00:53:29 ◼   ► Just for video calls, though, right?

00:53:31 ◼   ► Like, you know, me and you are in the kitchen and I want the weather and the robot's pointing at you and I'm like,

00:53:36 ◼   ► "Hey, give me the weather."

00:53:37 ◼   ► It's not a robot, but yes, you say, "Look at me" because I want to see the weather.

00:53:40 ◼   ► I get it. I get it.

00:53:42 ◼   ► Robo. HomePod Robo.

00:53:44 ◼   ► Again, this feels very much like somebody is describing it and it's being obfuscated and simplified and it sounds much more complicated than it actually is.

00:53:54 ◼   ► We know all the parts that Apple has for this thing.

00:53:56 ◼   ► A thousand dollars is a lot of money for a device like this, which doesn't mean that Apple won't do it at that price.

00:54:07 ◼   ► But I would say one of my concerns about modern Apple is that they build, they over-engineer their products.

00:54:14 ◼   ► Not that they're expensive because Apple products are always expensive, but that they overshoot and over-engineer their products.

00:54:21 ◼   ► And that if the only way to build a combination smart home command center video conferencing machine and remote controlled home security tool

00:54:30 ◼   ► that moves around in response to your voice commands is by building this amazing thing that costs a thousand dollars.

00:54:36 ◼   ► You know, maybe not.

00:54:39 ◼   ► Let's just not do the arm. How about that?

00:54:41 ◼   ► Just get rid of the arm and it's 500 dollars.

00:54:44 ◼   ► Have a little base that turns.

00:54:46 ◼   ► Don't even do that. Don't even have it move. It doesn't need to move.

00:54:49 ◼   ► It doesn't need to move.

00:54:50 ◼   ► That's really not a robot then.

00:54:52 ◼   ► It doesn't, right?

00:54:54 ◼   ► Just because you can, it doesn't. In fact, you could put very clever sensors on it.

00:54:58 ◼   ► If you wanted to have a 360 view, you could put a camera on the front and a camera on the back.

00:55:02 ◼   ► And then it could see everywhere.

00:55:03 ◼   ► But it doesn't have to move.

00:55:05 ◼   ► It doesn't have to move.

00:55:07 ◼   ► It doesn't have to move.

00:55:08 ◼   ► And that's, sometimes I wonder of what Apple is doing with some of these products.

00:55:11 ◼   ► They're saying, well, there's already those products in the market.

00:55:13 ◼   ► So we can't come in at that level.

00:55:15 ◼   ► We have to make it better.

00:55:16 ◼   ► We got to make it better.

00:55:17 ◼   ► But then they make it a thousand dollars.

00:55:18 ◼   ► It's like, well, no, no.

00:55:20 ◼   ► Make it good and not full of ads and slow and bad like what Amazon and Google have.

00:55:26 ◼   ► And then bring it in at 500 or 750.

00:55:30 ◼   ► But also, yeah, look.

00:55:31 ◼   ► Make a HomePod, put a screen on it, and it can move on a base.

00:55:35 ◼   ► Right?

00:55:36 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:55:37 ◼   ► And that could be 600, say.

00:55:39 ◼   ► But it's not a thousand.

00:55:40 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:55:41 ◼   ► It feels very Vision Pro to me where it's overdone, just over egged.

00:55:46 ◼   ► There's too much in here.

00:55:47 ◼   ► This product is a product I want.

00:55:49 ◼   ► Right?

00:55:50 ◼   ► I do want this.

00:55:51 ◼   ► Yes.

00:55:52 ◼   ► This is that enthusiasm we were talking about in the last segment.

00:55:54 ◼   ► I'm very excited about Apple using all of the tech that it's already got that we all know

00:55:58 ◼   ► to build a product that is like a home speaker that could go in the kitchen that's got a screen

00:56:03 ◼   ► that I can control and that ties into Apple's ecosystem.

00:56:06 ◼   ► It's got all my apps on it.

00:56:07 ◼   ► Sold.

00:56:08 ◼   ► It's got my calendar on it.

00:56:09 ◼   ► Sold.

00:56:10 ◼   ► When I ask for my calendar, it shows me my calendar.

00:56:11 ◼   ► Yeah, I want it.

00:56:12 ◼   ► But they're going to have to tell a real good story, which I think they could, but they

00:56:16 ◼   ► have to tell a real good story for why this needs to be on a robotic arm and cost a thousand

00:56:20 ◼   ► dollars.

00:56:21 ◼   ► Right?

00:56:22 ◼   ► Maybe they can do it and maybe, hey, just maybe it's so beautiful that you're happy

00:56:29 ◼   ► to put it in your kitchen.

00:56:30 ◼   ► Sure.

00:56:31 ◼   ► You're happy to put it in your living room.

00:56:32 ◼   ► Right?

00:56:33 ◼   ► Because, and it's a thousand dollars because this thing is like beautiful.

00:56:36 ◼   ► Maybe it's too beautiful.

00:56:37 ◼   ► You're like, no, no, it can't be in my kitchen.

00:56:39 ◼   ► It's too beautiful.

00:56:40 ◼   ► I can't even bear to look at it.

00:56:41 ◼   ► It's so beautiful.

00:56:42 ◼   ► Because my Amazon Echo show is an ugly duck.

00:56:46 ◼   ► It's, yeah.

00:56:47 ◼   ► Right?

00:56:48 ◼   ► My Google Home is, uh, it's, it's, it's, yeah.

00:56:51 ◼   ► It's not great.

00:56:52 ◼   ► And so maybe this would be really nice.

00:56:54 ◼   ► And so like that, you know, that helps to the thing, but a thousand dollars on a robotic

00:56:58 ◼   ► arm is a lot.

00:57:00 ◼   ► It's a lot.

00:57:01 ◼   ► It's a lot.

00:57:02 ◼   ► It's a lot.

00:57:03 ◼   ► It's a lot.

00:57:04 ◼   ► And again, look, this is what we always say with these things.

00:57:05 ◼   ► We have so many details we don't have, but it's on the face of it as a lot.

00:57:10 ◼   ► And do you remember the HomePod?

00:57:12 ◼   ► How much does the HomePod?

00:57:13 ◼   ► Does that have 500 when it came around the first time?

00:57:15 ◼   ► Something like that.

00:57:16 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:57:17 ◼   ► That was too much.

00:57:18 ◼   ► Right?

00:57:19 ◼   ► But I bought two of those and I prefer one of these.

00:57:20 ◼   ► So maybe I'm the problem.

00:57:21 ◼   ► You know what I'm saying?

00:57:22 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:57:23 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:57:24 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:57:25 ◼   ► It just, and maybe a thousand.

00:57:26 ◼   ► $349 apparently, but still two of those $349.

00:57:28 ◼   ► It seemed like a thousand dollars, but it was $349.

00:57:32 ◼   ► But this is the thing.

00:57:33 ◼   ► This is the thing at a thousand dollars.

00:57:35 ◼   ► I, I, I look at it and I say, whatever we're doing here, it's too much.

00:57:40 ◼   ► But like, and that's the problem I've got is like, what's going on inside Apple that

00:57:45 ◼   ► you make these decisions and you're like, oh no, $3,500 headset.

00:57:49 ◼   ► That's a good idea.

00:57:50 ◼   ► And a thousand dollar kitchen speaker thing.

00:57:52 ◼   ► And it's like, well, yeah, but it'll be so amazing.

00:57:54 ◼   ► It's like, yeah, what would the $700 one look like?

00:57:57 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:57:58 ◼   ► We'd have to take off the legs and the wheels that make it roll around on your countertop.

00:58:01 ◼   ► Oh, well do that.

00:58:03 ◼   ► Cause then it's not a robot.

00:58:05 ◼   ► I think you made a very good point about the, they start with the, we want to do this thing.

00:58:11 ◼   ► How do we make it different?

00:58:13 ◼   ► That's a problem when, when, when you do that.

00:58:15 ◼   ► We got to blow away what Amazon and Google have done by taking it.

00:58:20 ◼   ► Like it'll be next level in so many different ways.

00:58:23 ◼   ► Cause I do think that there's a pride thing where even though again, Apple, they're bad.

00:58:29 ◼   ► The Amazon product, the Google product, they're bad.

00:58:32 ◼   ► They're not up to your standards.

00:58:34 ◼   ► It's the equivalent of Apple TV versus the stuff that's on a TV or, or a Roku or whatever.

00:58:41 ◼   ► Yours is better.

00:58:42 ◼   ► I mean asterisk, but, but it is better.

00:58:45 ◼   ► And the hardware is really nice and you charge a lot for it.

00:58:49 ◼   ► And like it's found an audience.

00:58:50 ◼   ► The remote is great.

00:58:52 ◼   ► The TV app is great.

00:58:53 ◼   ► Like it's all good.

00:58:54 ◼   ► I think so.

00:58:55 ◼   ► Joe Rosensteels in the chat room.

00:58:59 ◼   ► Don't anger him.

00:59:00 ◼   ► No, no, but I'm willing to die on this cross.

00:59:02 ◼   ► Like I think, I think Apple TV is awesome.

00:59:04 ◼   ► I love it.

00:59:05 ◼   ► Having used other, other set top box things.

00:59:08 ◼   ► It's the best.

00:59:09 ◼   ► It's the best.

00:59:10 ◼   ► It's not, it's, it's got lots of issues, but it's still the best.

00:59:13 ◼   ► Okay.

00:59:14 ◼   ► Google and Amazon stuff for this category are awful.

00:59:17 ◼   ► They're awful.

00:59:18 ◼   ► They're not close to Apple standards, but Apple seems to want to well, but we got to

00:59:22 ◼   ► blow them away.

00:59:24 ◼   ► They don't want the glory of entering a category with a product.

00:59:27 ◼   ► That's kind of like what the ones that are already there, but more expensive and better.

00:59:31 ◼   ► And instead it's like, they want to dunk on them and like dunking on them is not a bad

00:59:38 ◼   ► thing, but dunking on them for five times the price of them where nobody's going to

00:59:45 ◼   ► buy it is a bad thing.

00:59:46 ◼   ► So that's the restraint I would like to see if you want to make Apple tabletop home robot

00:59:51 ◼   ► pro and Apple tabletop home, not a robot and sell them both.

00:59:57 ◼   ► That's great.

00:59:58 ◼   ► But you get, you end up in a home pod situation where you do the home pod and it goes over

01:00:02 ◼   ► like a lead balloon.

01:00:03 ◼   ► And then they're like, Oh, home pod mini.

01:00:04 ◼   ► And it's like, Oh yeah, people kind of like that.

01:00:07 ◼   ► Right.

01:00:08 ◼   ► That should have been your first product.

01:00:10 ◼   ► That's what I'm saying here is I'm getting real home pod vibes, real vision pro vibes

01:00:15 ◼   ► where it's like, you're making some decisions to, to blow away the competition when your

01:00:20 ◼   ► basic thing would blow away the competition.

01:00:24 ◼   ► So maybe make that apparently Apple also has a team now that are exploring other robotic

01:00:30 ◼   ► devices, including a humanoid robot.

01:00:32 ◼   ► The actual robot, actual robots.

01:00:36 ◼   ► This team is being run by a robotic expert by the names of Hans Warfum Tapayna.

01:00:43 ◼   ► I will say this person sounds like a robotics expert.

01:00:46 ◼   ► That is the name of someone who knows robots.

01:00:50 ◼   ► Hans Warfum Tapayna.

01:00:52 ◼   ► That person, I don't know anything about them, but I know they're a robots expert and I believe

01:00:56 ◼   ► it.

01:00:57 ◼   ► Tapayna's team consists of a hundred engineers who departed the car project.

01:01:02 ◼   ► They're going from one to the other, you know?

01:01:07 ◼   ► Look I, I think that here's what I think about this.

01:01:12 ◼   ► I like the idea that Apple has people who are experts at this stuff who are just messing

01:01:15 ◼   ► around trying to figure stuff out.

01:01:17 ◼   ► That's fine.

01:01:18 ◼   ► It doesn't need to be a product.

01:01:20 ◼   ► It could lead to a product.

01:01:21 ◼   ► It could accidentally lead to a product.

01:01:23 ◼   ► You will, we'll see.

01:01:24 ◼   ► I'm not sure if this is in Apple's wheelhouse, but, uh, sure.

01:01:28 ◼   ► Why not?

01:01:29 ◼   ► Why not investigate that and experience it?

01:01:31 ◼   ► And if yes, if Apple eventually comes up with a little robot that can vacuum and mop and

01:01:36 ◼   ► sweep and, and I don't know what fold your laundry or whatever, like, great, that'll

01:01:41 ◼   ► be amazing.

01:01:42 ◼   ► But it seems unlikely to me that any of that will actually happen.

01:01:47 ◼   ► Mark Gurman, standby everybody.

01:01:50 ◼   ► Mark is also reporting that Apple continues to explore a larger iMac.

01:01:54 ◼   ► Oh, I hope they find it.

01:01:58 ◼   ► What's what's out there?

01:01:59 ◼   ► What's across the horizon?

01:02:00 ◼   ► Could there be a larger iMac somewhere out there?

01:02:02 ◼   ► They're out there.

01:02:03 ◼   ► They're still developing the idea.

01:02:04 ◼   ► It's like a bigfoot though.

01:02:06 ◼   ► It's like there are pictures that suggest there might be a larger iMac, but you can't

01:02:09 ◼   ► verify them.

01:02:10 ◼   ► I don't want it anymore.

01:02:11 ◼   ► All right.

01:02:12 ◼   ► You told me I couldn't have it.

01:02:14 ◼   ► Now I don't want it.

01:02:15 ◼   ► Don't bring it.

01:02:16 ◼   ► Don't do it.

01:02:17 ◼   ► Honestly, I want them to do a larger display.

01:02:21 ◼   ► Yes.

01:02:22 ◼   ► Give me a big display.

01:02:23 ◼   ► That a Mac studio, a laptop, a Mac mini could be attached to.

01:02:27 ◼   ► I want a big display that is ProMotion.

01:02:31 ◼   ► That's what I want because I have my 14 inch MacBook Pro that I record on here hooked up

01:02:36 ◼   ► to an OG display because like whatever.

01:02:39 ◼   ► But like even if I hooked up to a studio display, it's not getting everything that computer

01:02:43 ◼   ► can do.

01:02:44 ◼   ► That computer can do promotion and I want that.

01:02:47 ◼   ► Give me that in a display, please.

01:02:50 ◼   ► That's fair.

01:02:51 ◼   ► As well as this, Mark is reporting that the next generation of AirPods could get active

01:02:55 ◼   ► noise cancellation.

01:02:57 ◼   ► So currently you can buy two sets of products called AirPods.

01:03:05 ◼   ► AirPods 2, which was the long stem ones and AirPods 3, which was redesigned to be closer

01:03:11 ◼   ► to AirPods Pro in packaging and like its format, but they don't go in your ears, right?

01:03:17 ◼   ► They just don't go directly in, you know, the rubber tips.

01:03:21 ◼   ► So this year Apple is looking to redesign, like repackage these, right?

01:03:29 ◼   ► So there'll be two new sets of AirPods called the AirPods.

01:03:33 ◼   ► They'd be like AirPods 4 basically.

01:03:35 ◼   ► And maybe like they may name them slightly different.

01:03:38 ◼   ► So but what they will do is create a new entry level product that retains the features of

01:03:43 ◼   ► the current AirPods 3.

01:03:45 ◼   ► Yeah, and AirPods 2.

01:03:47 ◼   ► So it like retains those features and then add in a new mid tier AirPods product that

01:03:53 ◼   ► gets noise cancellation, but not all the other features of the AirPods Pro.

01:03:58 ◼   ► Both would get USB-C cases.

01:04:01 ◼   ► I wonder what these will actually look like.

01:04:05 ◼   ► Like are they going to redesign AirPods 2 to be like shorter stem maybe?

01:04:10 ◼   ► And then also is the AirPods 3, I guess it has to have in-ear silicon tips.

01:04:17 ◼   ► Right?

01:04:18 ◼   ► Like how else can you do noise cancellation?

01:04:20 ◼   ► You have to have a seal, don't you?

01:04:23 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:04:24 ◼   ► I mean to do a good one, yeah, because otherwise the sound gets in.

01:04:27 ◼   ► Because then what's the point?

01:04:29 ◼   ► So it looks like what they're going to do is create a regular AirPods set.

01:04:34 ◼   ► And I, you know, I feel bad for the people who AirPods 3 don't fit in their ears because

01:04:38 ◼   ► maybe there won't be any more AirPods that will fit in their ears.

01:04:41 ◼   ► Then create an active noise cancellation cheaper version and then AirPods Pro, I don't know

01:04:49 ◼   ► what it will get.

01:04:50 ◼   ► Like I wonder, I assume that these…

01:04:52 ◼   ► Get that infrared camera.

01:04:53 ◼   ► I guess, but that's not this year.

01:04:56 ◼   ► Like there won't be a new AirPods Pro this year.

01:04:57 ◼   ► That would be next year at the earliest, Mark says.

01:04:59 ◼   ► So I mean I would assume that as well as noise cancellation, it will also get transparency

01:05:04 ◼   ► mode.

01:05:05 ◼   ► I mean it doesn't say that, but I would assume that you would get that.

01:05:09 ◼   ► Intriguing.

01:05:10 ◼   ► I mean, this is the iPad and iPad Pro of it all, right?

01:05:14 ◼   ► Like this is what they do.

01:05:16 ◼   ► The features roll down the line.

01:05:17 ◼   ► Yeah, I think they've got…

01:05:20 ◼   ► One question is, it's like is it a mid-tier or is it essentially an extension of what

01:05:24 ◼   ► we have now where we essentially have a low-end AirPod and a mid-tier AirPod?

01:05:29 ◼   ► And that will these be like…

01:05:32 ◼   ► In other words, is AirPods 2 replaced by something that is also at a similar price, right?

01:05:38 ◼   ► That is very limited in features, but just revised to be a little more modern.

01:05:41 ◼   ► And that AirPods 3 gets replaced with something that is really just kind of in the middle

01:05:46 ◼   ► there so that they've got a good, better, best kind of scenario with the AirPods Pro

01:05:50 ◼   ► on top.

01:05:51 ◼   ► You know, AirPods Air.

01:05:52 ◼   ► No, don't call it that.

01:05:54 ◼   ► It's a bad idea.

01:05:56 ◼   ► AirPods…

01:05:57 ◼   ► And so they put the Air in AirPods in all caps, you know?

01:06:01 ◼   ► Just to let you know that it's the…

01:06:03 ◼   ► Okay.

01:06:04 ◼   ► So yeah, interesting.

01:06:05 ◼   ► I will be intrigued to see where this goes and I know it's going to upset some people

01:06:09 ◼   ► because people get like very…

01:06:10 ◼   ► They're like very specific.

01:06:11 ◼   ► Like some people, AirPods 3 don't fit in their ears and some people don't want in-ear

01:06:17 ◼   ► silicon.

01:06:18 ◼   ► I will just say, you know, people that have…

01:06:21 ◼   ► I didn't want to do in-ear silicon.

01:06:22 ◼   ► I've never liked that before, but I like AirPods.

01:06:25 ◼   ► They work for me.

01:06:28 ◼   ► The next iPhone Pro, we've been talking about a bronze color.

01:06:32 ◼   ► Is it actually going to be brown though?

01:06:35 ◼   ► So there is an image that has come out of potentially what the next iPhone lineup is

01:06:41 ◼   ► going to look like from Sonny Dixon, who has had a pretty good track record with this stuff

01:06:46 ◼   ► in the past.

01:06:48 ◼   ► And the bronze color iPhone Pro, it looks very Microsoft Zuni.

01:06:54 ◼   ► It's very brown looking in this image.

01:06:57 ◼   ► Yeah, I would caution people because based on lighting and cameras, colors can really

01:07:05 ◼   ► be different than reality.

01:07:09 ◼   ► It does look really brown in here, although there is that one thing that suggested it's

01:07:13 ◼   ► like desert titanium or something.

01:07:16 ◼   ► One of the names is suggested is desert titanium, which I think is a translation error, but

01:07:21 ◼   ► nevertheless, that's…

01:07:22 ◼   ► Yeah, well, look, it's iPhone math, okay?

01:07:25 ◼   ► Forget about it.

01:07:26 ◼   ► iPhone math, that's a reference.

01:07:28 ◼   ► What I would say is worst case scenario, Zun phone.

01:07:36 ◼   ► Best case scenario, tan phone?

01:07:40 ◼   ► It's not a great best case scenario.

01:07:43 ◼   ► Yeah, I'm not sure.

01:07:46 ◼   ► So I was intrigued about bronze, but like now I'm like, "I don't know, like was this worth

01:07:51 ◼   ► replacing blue?"

01:07:53 ◼   ► No, as the owner of a blue titanium phone, no.

01:07:58 ◼   ► But the black one looks nice though, you know, in this image.

01:08:00 ◼   ► Of course it does.

01:08:01 ◼   ► The black one looks good.

01:08:02 ◼   ► Something that I've forgotten about, but I saw in another article about this, which was

01:08:08 ◼   ► the rumor that they were going to move from matte rails back to polished again.

01:08:13 ◼   ► And it definitely looks like that in this image.

01:08:16 ◼   ► And I don't know how I feel about that because I actually quite like the matte texture on

01:08:20 ◼   ► the side of the current titanium one.

01:08:21 ◼   ► I don't know if I want to go back to shiny again.

01:08:23 ◼   ► I think that's too soon to go straight back.

01:08:27 ◼   ► I understand the idea of you change things up.

01:08:29 ◼   ► So they're like, you know, you're just setting your own trends and stuff.

01:08:32 ◼   ► But I think one year of the matte rails may not have been long enough to go straight back

01:08:38 ◼   ► to shiny again.

01:08:39 ◼   ► But yeah, I mean, looking at this lineup, I'm probably going to stick with natural titanium.

01:08:45 ◼   ► I bought blue and then at the podcastathon last year, I saw you guys had your natural

01:08:50 ◼   ► titanium models.

01:08:52 ◼   ► And I thought about returning the blue and in the end, I decided the blue is fine.

01:08:57 ◼   ► I like the blue and I don't want to go through the trouble of returning my phone and getting

01:09:00 ◼   ► a new phone.

01:09:01 ◼   ► That said, natural titanium looks real good.

01:09:05 ◼   ► And I might go with that next time.

01:09:08 ◼   ► We'll see.

01:09:09 ◼   ► I'll probably stick with it like that.

01:09:10 ◼   ► I don't think I'm going to change it because I actually do kind of like it.

01:09:14 ◼   ► I want to just say while we're talking about the iPhone real quick.

01:09:17 ◼   ► These things are made of really strong glass.

01:09:20 ◼   ► I've dropped, you've been in my house.

01:09:22 ◼   ► I have concrete floors downstairs.

01:09:24 ◼   ► I dropped my phone twice in the last week because I had like shorts that had, I was

01:09:28 ◼   ► wearing some shorts that I didn't have very deep pockets so it kept falling out my pocket.

01:09:32 ◼   ► I've dropped my phone twice hard onto the concrete.

01:09:35 ◼   ► Perfectly fine.

01:09:36 ◼   ► These phones are strong now.

01:09:37 ◼   ► I know that they break.

01:09:38 ◼   ► I know that they break.

01:09:39 ◼   ► But like in years, you know, going back into the past, I don't know how long, my phone

01:09:43 ◼   ► would have been absolutely done.

01:09:45 ◼   ► Like a couple of little drops here and there where I thought, oh, and it's not going to

01:09:50 ◼   ► work.

01:09:51 ◼   ► Nothing is happening.

01:09:52 ◼   ► It has hit hard.

01:09:53 ◼   ► I had one that hit directly onto the front and then one that hit onto the side and then

01:09:56 ◼   ► the front and they made bad noises.

01:09:58 ◼   ► It was the kind of noise where Adina was like, oh no, when she heard it, right?

01:10:01 ◼   ► Because she knew what it was.

01:10:02 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:10:03 ◼   ► Absolutely fine.

01:10:04 ◼   ► Not a mark on it.

01:10:05 ◼   ► So beautiful.

01:10:06 ◼   ► These phones are strong.

01:10:07 ◼   ► The investments that they've made in glass, like I know that they have that deal with

01:10:11 ◼   ► Corning, right?

01:10:13 ◼   ► To make strong glass, stronger, stronger glass.

01:10:16 ◼   ► It's doing the business.

01:10:18 ◼   ► I got to say, I'm happy with it.

01:10:20 ◼   ► I've got a statement that I want you to think about here, which is you've got to have deep

01:10:24 ◼   ► pockets if you'll use an iPhone without a case.

01:10:28 ◼   ► Bravo.

01:10:29 ◼   ► No, I'm really, Adina is incredible.

01:10:34 ◼   ► And figuratively.

01:10:35 ◼   ► You should be proud of that one.

01:10:36 ◼   ► Genuinely.

01:10:37 ◼   ► Thank you.

01:10:38 ◼   ► I'm putting it on the hall of fame.

01:10:39 ◼   ► Put it on the board.

01:10:40 ◼   ► Yes.

01:10:41 ◼   ► Congratulations to me, everybody.

01:10:42 ◼   ► Let's raise your jersey.

01:10:43 ◼   ► He's going to retire now.

01:10:44 ◼   ► We're done.

01:10:45 ◼   ► Stand up for the champions.

01:10:46 ◼   ► Yes.

01:10:47 ◼   ► Wow.

01:10:48 ◼   ► That's so good, Jason.

01:10:50 ◼   ► You can tell you're a writer, you know?

01:10:52 ◼   ► You have the shallow pockets.

01:10:53 ◼   ► That was your problem.

01:10:54 ◼   ► That was my problem.

01:10:55 ◼   ► Because then, you know, you got to, because you have to shell out for it.

01:10:57 ◼   ► Anyway, I'm not going to explain.

01:10:58 ◼   ► Don't keep doing it because we're going to ruin it.

01:11:01 ◼   ► Yep.

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01:12:19 ◼   ► And it's time for some Ask Upgrade Questions.

01:12:28 ◼   ► First question comes in from Steven, not that one, who asks, "Jason, what was better in

01:12:33 ◼   ► the 90s, Mac user or Macworld?"

01:12:35 ◼   ► Oh, Mac user.

01:12:39 ◼   ► I was a Mac user reader and that's why I wanted to work there and then I worked there.

01:12:45 ◼   ► And we were the upstart, we were a little less formal, we had more fun.

01:12:51 ◼   ► And then they merged us together with Macworld and you know, most of the Macworld people

01:12:57 ◼   ► left and most of the Mac user people stayed and most of the people you see out there writing

01:13:03 ◼   ► about tech or working at Apple or whatever now are almost entirely people who worked

01:13:10 ◼   ► at Macuser and not who worked at Macworld.

01:13:12 ◼   ► And that was the big surprise I had was that Macworld was much, again, I don't wanna say

01:13:19 ◼   ► that everybody was like this, but sort of generalizing is bad, but I felt like most

01:13:24 ◼   ► of the people on the Macworld staff were happy to be in the magazine business and most of

01:13:28 ◼   ► the people on the Macuser staff were excited to write about Macs.

01:13:34 ◼   ► And I think it showed, I think Macworld was very serious and professional and Macuser

01:13:38 ◼   ► was wackier and had more fun and had Chris Breen and Andy Anico and Bob Levitas and I

01:13:45 ◼   ► was a fan, that was the one that I read.

01:13:48 ◼   ► And so, we tried, when we went to Macworld, we tried to kinda make it more like we wanted

01:13:54 ◼   ► to be and that just the effect of everybody for Mac was leaving and most of the Macuser

01:14:00 ◼   ► people who went over there staying and then, you know, turnover and eventually me being

01:14:05 ◼   ► put in charge like Macworld ended up in a very different place in the 2000s than it

01:14:08 ◼   ► was in the 90s, but in the 90s, yeah, Macuser was my thing.

01:14:12 ◼   ► - Peter wrote in to ask, I'm just wondering if the bigger icons on iOS and iPadOS removed

01:14:18 ◼   ► the silly blue dots after you updated an app.

01:14:21 ◼   ► I think Peter is very anti blue dot.

01:14:23 ◼   ► I tried this out today to check for Peter and currently, I would say yes it does.

01:14:27 ◼   ► So I was on my iPad and I updated some apps and I switched the icons to big and the dots

01:14:33 ◼   ► weren't there because the names aren't there so there's nowhere to put the dot.

01:14:36 ◼   ► However, when I then switched my icons back from big to small, the dots were gone even

01:14:41 ◼   ► from my test flight apps.

01:14:42 ◼   ► So, who could tell, you know?

01:14:45 ◼   ► Who could tell 'cause that's not supposed to happen.

01:14:47 ◼   ► But currently, yeah, it does get rid of them.

01:14:50 ◼   ► And I would put a bet on it will actually get rid of them.

01:14:54 ◼   ► So, there you go.

01:14:57 ◼   ► I don't know if I need to know that my apps have been updated, you know?

01:15:00 ◼   ► Like, I don't think I need to know that.

01:15:02 ◼   ► But there you go.

01:15:04 ◼   ► James asked a question.

01:15:08 ◼   ► Jason, you're not gonna like the frame of this question, I can tell you that.

01:15:10 ◼   ► 'Cause I don't like the frame of this question either, but it's an interesting question.

01:15:15 ◼   ► James asks, why does Craig Federighi seem to get a pass from Apple commentators?

01:15:19 ◼   ► See, this is the frame, man.

01:15:21 ◼   ► I don't like everyone being lumped in together.

01:15:23 ◼   ► Like, it's one-

01:15:24 ◼   ► - I called him out on a podcast recently, by the way.

01:15:26 ◼   ► So, I, but continue.

01:15:29 ◼   ► - People are quick to directly excoriate,

01:15:32 ◼   ► that's an interesting word.

01:15:34 ◼   ► Tim Cook for issues with regulation services revenue

01:15:37 ◼   ► in the China supply chain or Phil Schiller for app store rules.

01:15:40 ◼   ► But for all of the complaints about Apple software, paternalism, quality, release cadence,

01:15:46 ◼   ► no one seems to bring up the SVP of software engineering

01:15:49 ◼   ► who's actually in charge of these things.

01:15:51 ◼   ► Can it really be the hair?

01:15:52 ◼   ► - Well, first off, you mentioned Tim Cook and Phil Schiller.

01:15:56 ◼   ► Like, Tim Cook's the boss, stops with him.

01:15:59 ◼   ► And Phil Schiller, he's been there longer than anybody.

01:16:02 ◼   ► And he's kind of the boss when it comes to some of the stuff

01:16:04 ◼   ► that is in his purview.

01:16:06 ◼   ► So, that's why they get brought up.

01:16:08 ◼   ► Even then, we don't know the true dynamics of it.

01:16:11 ◼   ► We don't.

01:16:11 ◼   ► That's the thing about making anything personal at Apple

01:16:14 ◼   ► is you don't actually know the real dynamics going on.

01:16:16 ◼   ► That said, I don't know whether it was on this podcast

01:16:20 ◼   ► or Mac break weekly.

01:16:21 ◼   ► I mean, I do lots of podcasts people,

01:16:23 ◼   ► but I have absolutely in the last week or two

01:16:26 ◼   ► mentioned Craig Federighi.

01:16:29 ◼   ► I think about the permissions thing,

01:16:31 ◼   ► but I think the reason to answer this question directly,

01:16:36 ◼   ► Craig seems to get a light touch from Apple commentators

01:16:40 ◼   ► in part because he feels like he's one of us.

01:16:43 ◼   ► - He's possible.

01:16:44 ◼   ► - He's a friendly guy.

01:16:46 ◼   ► He's nerdy.

01:16:47 ◼   ► He understands about software development.

01:16:50 ◼   ► There's so many things as a character

01:16:53 ◼   ► in interviews and in Apple events and it's lighthearted.

01:16:59 ◼   ► And we remember when he did his first demo

01:17:01 ◼   ► and he was shaking 'cause he was so nervous

01:17:04 ◼   ► and he feels like one of us.

01:17:07 ◼   ► So, that's my answer.

01:17:09 ◼   ► But I will say this.

01:17:11 ◼   ► Absolutely a lot of these issues about Apple software system

01:17:16 ◼   ► and the missteps they make

01:17:20 ◼   ► in terms of their software development

01:17:22 ◼   ► can be laid at the foot of Craig Federighi,

01:17:26 ◼   ► CFED, CFED himself, our buddy, the guy with the hair.

01:17:31 ◼   ► Craig, the buck doesn't stop with Craig.

01:17:34 ◼   ► There are a lot of SVPs at Apple,

01:17:35 ◼   ► but like he's in charge of the software.

01:17:37 ◼   ► If we think that Apple software quality is bad

01:17:39 ◼   ► or that they have misguided priorities

01:17:41 ◼   ► or that the security and privacy people

01:17:44 ◼   ► are bullying the user experience people

01:17:45 ◼   ► and the user experience failed,

01:17:47 ◼   ► ultimately while we can't know who's responsible

01:17:51 ◼   ► and that's why you should never make it personal,

01:17:54 ◼   ► I do know that ultimately Craig is responsible.

01:17:59 ◼   ► And I think a lot of people think, well, he's so likable

01:18:04 ◼   ► and he's gotta be fighting for what's right on the inside.

01:18:07 ◼   ► And he seems like a nice guy.

01:18:09 ◼   ► I think that's all true.

01:18:11 ◼   ► I think it would be fair to say,

01:18:13 ◼   ► is he a good leader of a giant software group or not?

01:18:18 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:18:19 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:18:20 ◼   ► I haven't heard from anybody at Apple about it.

01:18:22 ◼   ► I don't know if he's like,

01:18:23 ◼   ► just because he's a nice guy and we like him

01:18:25 ◼   ► and he seems like one of us,

01:18:26 ◼   ► does that make him flawless?

01:18:29 ◼   ► It does not.

01:18:30 ◼   ► Is it the case that Craig Federighi

01:18:32 ◼   ► is fighting the good fight every day,

01:18:33 ◼   ► but that there's some stuff that he just can't win on?

01:18:36 ◼   ► Sure.

01:18:38 ◼   ► Could it also be true that Craig Federighi

01:18:40 ◼   ► is letting things go that he shouldn't

01:18:43 ◼   ► and not standing up for things.

01:18:44 ◼   ► And as a result, the processes are not as clean

01:18:49 ◼   ► and good as they should be.

01:18:50 ◼   ► Could also be true.

01:18:52 ◼   ► This I don't know.

01:18:53 ◼   ► But I will agree with James

01:18:55 ◼   ► that Craig doesn't deserve a pass

01:19:00 ◼   ► even though we like him.

01:19:02 ◼   ► That ultimately we can't know,

01:19:04 ◼   ► unless somebody wants to tell us,

01:19:05 ◼   ► the details of the inner workings of Apple.

01:19:08 ◼   ► You can never say, oh, this thing happened

01:19:10 ◼   ► that I don't like, who is at fault?

01:19:12 ◼   ► Very hard to say, right?

01:19:13 ◼   ► There's huge organizational dynamics at play here.

01:19:16 ◼   ► But ultimately, yeah, he's the guy in charge of software.

01:19:18 ◼   ► And if software is messing things up,

01:19:20 ◼   ► he's the guy we gotta question.

01:19:23 ◼   ► I mean, not that we can talk to him

01:19:25 ◼   ► other than maybe at the talk show,

01:19:27 ◼   ► John Gruber can ask him a question

01:19:28 ◼   ► that Greg Joswiak reaches out and bats out of the air

01:19:31 ◼   ► before we can reach him.

01:19:33 ◼   ► But other than that, I mean, yeah, I think that's true.

01:19:36 ◼   ► It's just a lot.

01:19:37 ◼   ► He's one of many SVPs

01:19:39 ◼   ► and so it's harder to make that statement

01:19:43 ◼   ► than it is for something like Tim Cook, who's the boss,

01:19:45 ◼   ► or Phil Schiller, who's been there for a million years

01:19:47 ◼   ► and very clearly has had stuff

01:19:49 ◼   ► just sort of delegated to him

01:19:51 ◼   ► that he rules over and that's it.

01:19:54 ◼   ► So that's kind of my answer.

01:19:56 ◼   ► I don't think it's the hair though.

01:19:57 ◼   ► If I had to do armchair psychology,

01:19:59 ◼   ► I would say it's because he's the most like us.

01:20:01 ◼   ► He's like our wish fulfillment character

01:20:03 ◼   ► at Apple a little bit.

01:20:04 ◼   ► And as a result, it's very hard to criticize Craig.

01:20:07 ◼   ► He seems so nice.

01:20:08 ◼   ► And like one of us, I seem to understand him.

01:20:10 ◼   ► And we know that they send people over to his house

01:20:13 ◼   ► when there are bugs, right?

01:20:14 ◼   ► Like that's all sweet, but at the end of the day,

01:20:17 ◼   ► if Apple's messing up at software, he's the boss.

01:20:19 ◼   ► - I don't know if I do a good job of this.

01:20:23 ◼   ► I know how I feel.

01:20:24 ◼   ► And so maybe, I know how it makes me feel,

01:20:27 ◼   ► so I hope I do.

01:20:28 ◼   ► I try my best to never try and ascribe anything

01:20:32 ◼   ► to an individual 'cause I don't know.

01:20:33 ◼   ► - Don't get personal.

01:20:34 ◼   ► - And there's no point, right?

01:20:36 ◼   ► 'Cause I don't know who's making the decision.

01:20:38 ◼   ► Like just because you're the boss,

01:20:40 ◼   ► sometimes you have to make a decision

01:20:42 ◼   ► even though you don't agree with it

01:20:43 ◼   ► because everybody in your organization is asking for it,

01:20:45 ◼   ► but it doesn't mean you agree with it.

01:20:46 ◼   ► - Yeah, but at a certain level, you gotta wear it though.

01:20:49 ◼   ► I'm like, if Tim Cook makes a decision,

01:20:50 ◼   ► he can say that he doesn't like it,

01:20:52 ◼   ► but he made it and he's the CEO.

01:20:54 ◼   ► So he has to take it.

01:20:55 ◼   ► - But you also can't say that he doesn't like it.

01:20:57 ◼   ► Like you can't say that 'cause-

01:20:58 ◼   ► - 'Cause you don't know.

01:20:59 ◼   ► It's true, that's why you should never get personal.

01:21:00 ◼   ► - I mean, like even if he doesn't like a decision

01:21:02 ◼   ► that he makes, he can't say he doesn't like it,

01:21:04 ◼   ► but he has to just take it, just do it

01:21:06 ◼   ► because like what else you can do?

01:21:06 ◼   ► - But he's still the CEO.

01:21:08 ◼   ► So in the end, he's still the CEO.

01:21:11 ◼   ► - But anyway, for me, I would never try

01:21:14 ◼   ► and ascribe blame to someone for something.

01:21:17 ◼   ► Like I don't, I mean, Apple is what Apple is.

01:21:22 ◼   ► Do I think that like the services stuff

01:21:24 ◼   ► is like Tim Cook's fault?

01:21:25 ◼   ► I don't know that.

01:21:27 ◼   ► I don't know that.

01:21:28 ◼   ► - Or Eddy Cue's fault for that matter, right?

01:21:30 ◼   ► - Or anybody's, but they just are where they are.

01:21:33 ◼   ► - This is why I always say the extreme example of this

01:21:38 ◼   ► that I really don't like, but it's a spectrum

01:21:42 ◼   ► is people say this person should be fired, right?

01:21:46 ◼   ► First off, talking about somebody's livelihood

01:21:49 ◼   ► is really, it makes me very uncomfortable.

01:21:53 ◼   ► - It's gross.

01:21:53 ◼   ► - It's yes.

01:21:54 ◼   ► Second, you don't know.

01:21:56 ◼   ► You don't know.

01:21:57 ◼   ► Like you, unless you literally have been working

01:22:00 ◼   ► with these people inside Apple for years

01:22:02 ◼   ► and they can say to me, oh yeah,

01:22:03 ◼   ► he should have been fired years ago, whoever it was.

01:22:06 ◼   ► Yeah, she should get out of there 'cause it's a bad fit.

01:22:09 ◼   ► She got promoted above her level.

01:22:10 ◼   ► Whoever it is, one of these people inside Apple,

01:22:13 ◼   ► unless you're inside there, you don't get to say,

01:22:15 ◼   ► oh, well, you know, the thing is about Craig

01:22:16 ◼   ► is they should fire him because I had a bug in the beta.

01:22:19 ◼   ► And people say that kind of stuff.

01:22:20 ◼   ► And it's like, you don't know.

01:22:22 ◼   ► Like I imagine the pressure on Craig Vetterighi

01:22:24 ◼   ► to run that organization is enormous.

01:22:26 ◼   ► And I imagine that there are very difficult decisions

01:22:29 ◼   ► he has to make.

01:22:29 ◼   ► I'm reminded of something Obama said,

01:22:33 ◼   ► which was like, what is it like being president

01:22:36 ◼   ► that surprised you?

01:22:36 ◼   ► And he said, you know, they don't come to me

01:22:39 ◼   ► with the 98% decisions or the 70, 30 decisions.

01:22:44 ◼   ► They come to me with 49, 51.

01:22:47 ◼   ► Really, they come to me with 50, 50.

01:22:48 ◼   ► Like if it's a decision that's easy,

01:22:51 ◼   ► it never even gets to the president.

01:22:53 ◼   ► Only the very, very hard decisions

01:22:55 ◼   ► where there's no good answer

01:22:56 ◼   ► get to the president's desk, right?

01:22:58 ◼   ► That's sort of the truth of being a leader in general.

01:23:01 ◼   ► But I always remember him saying that

01:23:02 ◼   ► 'cause like Craig Vetterighi,

01:23:03 ◼   ► I'm sure that he has all sorts of forces pushing him

01:23:07 ◼   ► left and right.

01:23:08 ◼   ► And there's the politics

01:23:09 ◼   ► and there's people at his level

01:23:11 ◼   ► who are like, we need this thing.

01:23:12 ◼   ► 'Cause he's got John G and Andrea who's in charge of AI.

01:23:15 ◼   ► That's software, but it's also his own fiefdom

01:23:18 ◼   ► and not Craig's group and how do they interact?

01:23:20 ◼   ► Like it's very hard to say,

01:23:22 ◼   ► oh, this thing happened and it's Craig.

01:23:25 ◼   ► 'Cause like, we don't know.

01:23:26 ◼   ► We don't know.

01:23:27 ◼   ► Maybe he navigated it better

01:23:29 ◼   ► than anyone else could possibly have done

01:23:32 ◼   ► in difficult circumstances.

01:23:34 ◼   ► Or alternately, maybe he totally messed it up.

01:23:38 ◼   ► But we don't know.

01:23:39 ◼   ► We just don't know.

01:23:39 ◼   ► And that's why you should never make it personal.

01:23:43 ◼   ► And while I can say, like I said,

01:23:45 ◼   ► I do believe that I can say something's going on in software.

01:23:48 ◼   ► Craig Vetterighi is in charge of software.

01:23:50 ◼   ► What's going on, Craig?

01:23:51 ◼   ► I'm not gonna say Craig Vetterighi should be fired, right?

01:23:53 ◼   ► Craig, go fire him because like you can't.

01:23:57 ◼   ► 'Cause you don't know.

01:23:58 ◼   ► It's way more complicated than that.

01:24:00 ◼   ► And like, again, I do believe the buck stops here.

01:24:02 ◼   ► We talk about Tim Cook and the Tim Cook era.

01:24:05 ◼   ► It represents he's been presiding over it for a decade.

01:24:07 ◼   ► This is the direction Apple's going in.

01:24:09 ◼   ► We could, there is a nuanced debate to have in there,

01:24:12 ◼   ► but also as the CEO, I would argue like, he's a big boy.

01:24:15 ◼   ► He's the man in charge.

01:24:16 ◼   ► He has to own it regardless.

01:24:19 ◼   ► But even then I wouldn't make it personal

01:24:21 ◼   ► because you are right that like,

01:24:24 ◼   ► there are lots of things I think Tim Cook does

01:24:26 ◼   ► as the CEO of Apple that he's uneasy about,

01:24:29 ◼   ► but he feels that he has to because that's the job.

01:24:33 ◼   ► He gets his wins where he can get them.

01:24:35 ◼   ► - Like when he stood next to Donald Trump

01:24:38 ◼   ► in a Mac Pro factory sometime and just said,

01:24:40 ◼   ► "Oh, he did this."

01:24:42 ◼   ► - Yeah, no, I mean, he gets the wins where he can

01:24:44 ◼   ► and he does the other things.

01:24:46 ◼   ► Yes, I'm pretty sure Tim Cook didn't want to go

01:24:49 ◼   ► to the Mac Pro factory with Donald Trump,

01:24:51 ◼   ► but he was the president of the United States

01:24:53 ◼   ► and he wanted to do it.

01:24:54 ◼   ► And they're like, "Okay, we are gonna do this.

01:24:57 ◼   ► "It makes sense for Apple."

01:24:58 ◼   ► I'm sure he was uneasy about it sitting next to him

01:25:00 ◼   ► at that thing.

01:25:01 ◼   ► But again, he's the CEO of Apple.

01:25:03 ◼   ► He's got to do a whole bunch of stuff

01:25:05 ◼   ► that makes himself uneasy.

01:25:06 ◼   ► And then he's got the places where he says,

01:25:07 ◼   ► "Oh, look at our environmental record.

01:25:08 ◼   ► "We're gonna take the win over here."

01:25:10 ◼   ► And that's just, it's a hard job.

01:25:12 ◼   ► It's easy to throw stones from the outside.

01:25:14 ◼   ► And we can be critical of Apple as a company

01:25:16 ◼   ► because they make bad decisions.

01:25:18 ◼   ► We've talked about them in this episode,

01:25:19 ◼   ► but very hard to say it's that person there

01:25:23 ◼   ► because it's just not that easy.

01:25:26 ◼   ► Even though it would be so,

01:25:28 ◼   ► it would feel so good if it was that easy,

01:25:30 ◼   ► but it's just not that easy.

01:25:31 ◼   ► - And Noah asks, "Now that we're in the summer of fun,

01:25:35 ◼   ► "what is your go-to music, album, or playlist

01:25:37 ◼   ► "for the summer while testing out the betas?"

01:25:40 ◼   ► Noah specifically asks,

01:25:41 ◼   ► "Mike, I remember a few years ago your album of choice

01:25:43 ◼   ► "was Maggie Rogers' 'Surrender'.

01:25:45 ◼   ► "Are you enjoying her album this year?

01:25:47 ◼   ► "Don't forget me."

01:25:48 ◼   ► Now let me tell you real quick,

01:25:50 ◼   ► we'll take a quick Maggie Rogers aside, Jason.

01:25:51 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:25:52 ◼   ► - If you have a different thing.

01:25:54 ◼   ► I was really apprehensive of Maggie Rogers' third album,

01:25:57 ◼   ► Don't Forget Me, because I just didn't think

01:25:59 ◼   ► it was possible she could do it again

01:26:01 ◼   ► because her first two albums

01:26:02 ◼   ► are just absolutely perfect albums.

01:26:07 ◼   ► - They're great.

01:26:08 ◼   ► - And she did it again.

01:26:09 ◼   ► Don't Forget Me isn't just incredible.

01:26:12 ◼   ► As a body of work across three albums,

01:26:16 ◼   ► it is hard to find,

01:26:17 ◼   ► I find it, I struggle to find a comparable artist

01:26:21 ◼   ► where of all the artists that I love

01:26:23 ◼   ► that I consider of my favorites,

01:26:25 ◼   ► to have three albums in a row

01:26:27 ◼   ► and they're all absolutely fantastic.

01:26:30 ◼   ► I mean, she is operating at a different level.

01:26:34 ◼   ► I love that album.

01:26:35 ◼   ► - That new album has grown on me.

01:26:37 ◼   ► First time I heard it, it left me kind of cold,

01:26:39 ◼   ► but it has grown on me over time

01:26:40 ◼   ► and I like it a lot better.

01:26:41 ◼   ► Now, by the way, if you're wondering

01:26:44 ◼   ► where an artist of the caliber of Maggie Rogers might play

01:26:48 ◼   ► when she's in London,

01:26:50 ◼   ► she's got two dates, September 4th and 5th.

01:26:52 ◼   ► You can go see her at London's storied Hackney empire.

01:26:57 ◼   ► - We're all the best perform.

01:26:59 ◼   ► - Only the best and also every Taskmaster contestant,

01:27:02 ◼   ► but also Maggie Rogers.

01:27:04 ◼   ► - It's wild, it's wild.

01:27:05 ◼   ► Yeah, she's doing that.

01:27:07 ◼   ► They were like, I think it was one of those ones

01:27:09 ◼   ► where if you buy a pre-sell album,

01:27:11 ◼   ► you could get a code and they're intimate dates.

01:27:14 ◼   ► Anyway, but yeah, I would say on that album,

01:27:20 ◼   ► So Sick of Dreaming, The Kill and Don't Forget Me,

01:27:23 ◼   ► they're just, those songs are just so good.

01:27:26 ◼   ► So good.

01:27:27 ◼   ► - The summer album that people should listen to

01:27:29 ◼   ► to give them the vibe of the Summer of Fun

01:27:31 ◼   ► is of course exotic themes for the silver screen

01:27:34 ◼   ► by Michael Giacchino.

01:27:35 ◼   ► We mentioned it on a previous episode.

01:27:36 ◼   ► That's where Michael Giacchino, the composer,

01:27:40 ◼   ► took a bunch of his famous movie themes

01:27:42 ◼   ► and turned them all into essentially Summer of Fun music.

01:27:45 ◼   ► It's pretty great.

01:27:46 ◼   ► I also recommend The Best of You Three.

01:27:48 ◼   ► It is an amazing playlist that Album Music made for me.

01:27:51 ◼   ► - It's in the show notes, it's in the show notes.

01:27:53 ◼   ► - Man, just get on that.

01:27:55 ◼   ► Woo, yeah, yeah.

01:27:57 ◼   ► I don't have one thing that I listen to for betas

01:28:01 ◼   ► or anything in the summer.

01:28:02 ◼   ► My music is just, I've got a bunch of different playlists

01:28:04 ◼   ► and Apple Music playlists.

01:28:05 ◼   ► - Do you have anything new this year though

01:28:06 ◼   ► that you've really been enjoying?

01:28:07 ◼   ► - I don't know.

01:28:11 ◼   ► Been listening to a lot of Caroline Polachek,

01:28:18 ◼   ► who's really great.

01:28:20 ◼   ► And a couple of her recent albums.

01:28:24 ◼   ► And then she has an album on a soundtrack.

01:28:28 ◼   ► I forget, I saw the TV light maybe,

01:28:29 ◼   ► that's really great that I've really been into.

01:28:32 ◼   ► Yeah, Maggie Rogers.

01:28:34 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:28:36 ◼   ► It's, let me look, I've got a best of,

01:28:38 ◼   ► see, have they made a best of 2025 playlist

01:28:42 ◼   ► out of my best of 2024?

01:28:44 ◼   ► They haven't.

01:28:45 ◼   ► Or would it be a best of 20, 2042?

01:28:48 ◼   ► Would Apple Music do that?

01:28:50 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:28:51 ◼   ► It's yeah, my best of 2024 is mostly Maggie Rogers,

01:28:56 ◼   ► Beboduby, Caroline Polachek and Holly Humberstone.

01:28:59 ◼   ► So yeah, just the usuals.

01:29:01 ◼   ► - What was that last one, Holly?

01:29:04 ◼   ► - Holly Humberstone.

01:29:05 ◼   ► She's a Brit, she's great.

01:29:06 ◼   ► - Oh, well come on.

01:29:07 ◼   ► - Really, really great.

01:29:08 ◼   ► Yeah, oh, I love her stuff.

01:29:10 ◼   ► She's great.

01:29:11 ◼   ► I did an EP with Maddie from the 1975

01:29:15 ◼   ► 'cause every artist I like apparently has a collaboration

01:29:19 ◼   ► with Maddie from the 1975 at some point in their catalog.

01:29:22 ◼   ► He's out there hunting them,

01:29:23 ◼   ► but Holly Humberstone is great.

01:29:26 ◼   ► Fantastic.

01:29:27 ◼   ► - All right, if you would like to ask us a question

01:29:30 ◼   ► for a future episode of the show,

01:29:31 ◼   ► if you have any feedback or follow up about today's episode,

01:29:34 ◼   ► just go to upgradefeedback.com and you can send that in.

01:29:37 ◼   ► You can check out Jason's work at sixcolors.com

01:29:40 ◼   ► and you can hear him on Relay and at the incomparable.com.

01:29:43 ◼   ► You can also listen to me on Relay too

01:29:45 ◼   ► and check out my work at cortexbrand.com.

01:29:47 ◼   ► You can find us online.

01:29:48 ◼   ► Jason is at Jason L, J-S-N-E-L-L.

01:29:51 ◼   ► I am at i-Mike, I-M-Y-K-E.

01:29:54 ◼   ► You can watch clips of this show on TikTok, Instagram

01:29:57 ◼   ► and YouTube where we are @upgraderelay.

01:29:59 ◼   ► Thank you to our members who support us with Upgrade Plus.

01:30:02 ◼   ► Thank you to our sponsors, KRCS, Delete Me and Fitbud.

01:30:05 ◼   ► But most of all, thank you for listening.

01:30:07 ◼   ► We'll be back next time.

01:30:09 ◼   ► Until then, say goodbye, Jason Stapp.

01:30:11 ◼   ► - Goodbye, everybody.

01:30:13 ◼   ► (upbeat music)

01:30:16 ◼   ► (upbeat music)

01:30:19 ◼   ► (upbeat music)

01:30:21 ◼   ► (upbeat music)

01:30:24 ◼   ► (upbeat music)

01:30:27 ◼   ► [BLANK_AUDIO]