00:00:02 ◼ ► Crap, I didn't even realize I cannot believe Casey didn't know this. I completely forgot
00:00:08 ◼ ► You really didn't know no. Well, I knew like the few days ago and I just hadn't thought about it since then. Oh, man
00:00:26 ◼ ► It's our 600 and some things because we have like, you know, we did the special interview episode
00:00:31 ◼ ► There's all the member specials and so on and so forth even just in the main feed because we did that interview special
00:00:37 ◼ ► Separately, we already passed 600. But anyway, it is the 600th numbered episode of ATP John's gonna John
00:00:43 ◼ ► I'm just saying like it's it what we're celebrating is the roundness of the number that's in front of the title and not necessarily the
00:01:05 ◼ ► Anyone who is listening to us anyone who's a member anyone who's ever listened to us in the past?
00:01:11 ◼ ► 600 episodes because it was something like the 13th of March thereabouts in 2013 that this all officially got started
00:01:32 ◼ ► Getting to spend a bunch of time with you too and all of our wonderful listeners and thank you for being here
00:01:37 ◼ ► It really means a lot to all of us. It's a perfect place to start if you're a new listener episode 600 jump right in
00:01:44 ◼ ► Okay, I do it is I don't want to you know, sap on this too long, but it is really remarkable that like we make a living
00:01:52 ◼ ► Talking to our friends about computers. That's that's incredible. Like I never would have guessed that as a young person
00:01:59 ◼ ► I always I always wanted to be a radio DJ when I was like a young teen and preteen like that was like my dream
00:02:08 ◼ ► Yeah, basically which I mean, you know, if you would have told me that in a number of years ago
00:02:13 ◼ ► That would have been pretty hard to believe but but yeah, you know and they get to be a DJ is actually apparently
00:02:19 ◼ ► Not a very good job. It's it's apparently a brutal business and not not a great career to pursue nor a very particularly
00:02:28 ◼ ► Especially these days as there's basically no radio left and and I would never have made it as a DJ because I don't have the right
00:02:40 ◼ ► I don't speak well enough but to be able to literally make a living talking to my friends in radio form and
00:02:50 ◼ ► That's really that's very special to me. So thank you everybody. Yep. Couldn't agree more
00:02:54 ◼ ► We are incredibly lucky and incredibly thankful and you know as a part of the relay 10 festivities that were
00:03:05 ◼ ► how it's really impressive to have a creative endeavor that has lasted as long as relay has and we are a touch older than relay actually
00:03:23 ◼ ► And again for all of our listeners John any sappy moments that you would like to contribute or shall I move right along to follow?
00:03:35 ◼ ► I gave my pitch of what I thought we were doing here at ATP and I feel like I still feel the same way
00:03:45 ◼ ► My description is in episode 400 if you want to go back and check it out standard Syracuse a response to some sentimentality is a
00:03:54 ◼ ► It's a reference. Yeah, you know, you know dry don't repeat yourself. It's good programming practice
00:04:02 ◼ ► Right enough navel-gazing. Let's do some follow-up. That's what the people are here for. So we have a series of
00:04:08 ◼ ► Several pieces of feedback with regard to the Mac OS permissions alerts to set the stage here it became
00:04:21 ◼ ► Starting with what is it Sequoia? I can never keep the version number straight anymore as we learned in a past episode
00:04:31 ◼ ► Something could be recording your screen a week later. Oh something could be recording your screen. We cool we good
00:04:44 ◼ ► The alerts pop up in the rather crappy notification UI there's no history and there's no centralized view over the alerts
00:04:54 ◼ ► Stream of randomly arriving requirements for user decisions can simply never meet the needed security and privacy objectives of the permission system
00:05:01 ◼ ► Also regarding migration of permission grants to a new system. I personally hope there's an option to turn this off
00:05:10 ◼ ► Centralize the decision-making with as much information as possible about what the thing is that needs permission
00:05:26 ◼ ► I think that that presentation of this information is inadequate and not particularly well organized, right?
00:05:37 ◼ ► I always wish on on all Apple devices that any notification that ever came in and that I dismissed and did something with
00:05:45 ◼ ► Oh, you got this notification at this time and then at this time you took this action on it, right?
00:05:58 ◼ ► The ones that are pending and the ones that I've dealt with within the last n hours, right?
00:06:12 ◼ ► Is missing is a essentially something that Google provides in its web interface in some fashion or another
00:06:19 ◼ ► like a security checkup where you go to this place and say tell me what the deal is with security in my system and
00:06:27 ◼ ► Permission the way things are now like show me all the things with full disk access some of the things with that
00:06:43 ◼ ► I can't think of another permission after I think but something is less severe would be towards the bottom right things everything wouldn't be exactly
00:06:50 ◼ ► You know equal like they wouldn't all be equally important to you. Like I don't know. Let's see
00:07:00 ◼ ► That's that's like, you know, not particularly like media and Apple music maybe would be towards the bottom right or motion is fitness
00:07:08 ◼ ► Whereas like camera microphone and screen recording would be near the top right or reminders would be lower than
00:07:16 ◼ ► Some sort of like centralized report in a nice UI that has organized the information for you and said just so you know
00:07:23 ◼ ► Here are the seven applications that can record your screen or have microphone access or cameras or whatever that have been installed in the last
00:07:30 ◼ ► Whatever months or that permissions have changed in the last like like a report screen like some hey
00:07:40 ◼ ► Like someone like a human would do to give you a one-page report that says here's what you need to know about your system
00:07:46 ◼ ► Here's what's going on on it and it's not like it would be asking you to do anything at this point
00:07:50 ◼ ► It's just saying I just want you to know here's the summary right and what would show up on the summary is
00:07:56 ◼ ► Some kind of time next everything this has had screen recording permission for this amount of time
00:08:07 ◼ ► It's not just a historical list not just a thing subdivided by app or subdivided by a permission but like a report
00:08:30 ◼ ► But if you're not sure or you can't remember or in this you know in this in sleight and something those people when they set up
00:08:38 ◼ ► Or even if they do migrate them they want to say now's a good time. So next on your computer
00:08:49 ◼ ► They could leverage in their report something that they're so hesitant to do we've talked about this for years for the App Store is
00:08:57 ◼ ► Microsoft Office and Adobe Photoshop, I know they're not all Apple Mac App Store or whatever right our
00:09:10 ◼ ► Then some random application that just came out last month from a developer that has never made another application for the Mac
00:09:17 ◼ ► As far as systems concern that's never communicated. So any kind of security report could take that into effect
00:09:27 ◼ ► When's when what version number is it on is this an is this a bundle ID that Apple knows about?
00:09:32 ◼ ► Maybe Apple could have an internal ranking of bundle IDs based on trustworthiness, right? And
00:09:36 ◼ ► I'm sure the security people are flipping out and saying no that's the worst thing you could possibly do everything has to be exactly equally
00:09:41 ◼ ► untrusted everywhere, but that's not a human's work your the goal of this stream would be to say we want a human to look at this and
00:09:47 ◼ ► Have it be like the front page news of their security system with ways to drill down and see all this stuff
00:09:53 ◼ ► Obviously you don't get rid of the full report or whatever and you know, tell them you're not seeing everything here
00:10:00 ◼ ► But without that you're left with people saying well that dialogue came and went and I don't remember what I put on it and either
00:10:09 ◼ ► so see in a bit about every application that I ever said yes to or you're relying on me to go into system settings and
00:10:14 ◼ ► Click into these 50 categories one after the other and scroll through the list and say yes. No, no
00:10:19 ◼ ► Yes, that's looking over every single item that you've ever approved. Really what you care about are the ones that are you know?
00:10:25 ◼ ► Recent or suspicious or have severe permissions or that you didn't ever say allow this forever and ever right?
00:10:40 ◼ ► Like we're getting a new separate passwords app, which is presumably a nicer place to look at passwords than system settings
00:10:45 ◼ ► I think we need the same thing for privacy and security. Yeah, I mean it all adds up to me and
00:10:59 ◼ ► But I don't know it's just it's not necessarily what I want or really in a perfect world
00:11:04 ◼ ► You know, you could say give me all the stuff for this app, which actually can't you do that now that I say that out loud
00:11:11 ◼ ► But like again what they present to people is one particular view that is totally flat and it is organized by permission
00:11:21 ◼ ► But like stuff where we really need for actually humans to have a fighting chance is something that's organized more like a front page of a newspaper
00:11:43 ◼ ► And several people wrote in in this case an anonymous person writes. I have a friend who has survived horrible domestic abuse
00:11:50 ◼ ► Her spouse controlled every aspect of her life including installing software on her computer without her knowledge
00:11:55 ◼ ► Keeping track of her passwords through key loggers and spyware and so forth. She was able to escape and then survived several
00:12:05 ◼ ► Perhaps these are the scenarios that Apple is trying to bring to light. This is a really great point that again
00:12:11 ◼ ► I wish I had thought of and I'm embarrassed that I didn't I don't have a great answer for this because on the one side I
00:12:22 ◼ ► But on the other side then that means other people could and I feel like I had Jason was talking about this somewhere
00:12:28 ◼ ► It might have been the the six colors podcast. I don't recall exactly where it was and you know at some point
00:12:33 ◼ ► His his Jason's point was you know at some point you can't protect everyone from everything but still I mean, I
00:12:42 ◼ ► You know, I don't I don't know I certainly don't want people in this scenario to be put in harm's way
00:12:53 ◼ ► Copy protection to stop people from copying a DVD that they have to be able to watch the movie on
00:12:58 ◼ ► Like in these domestic abuse scenarios very often the abuser has access as the person, you know what I mean?
00:13:13 ◼ ► You know what? I mean, right and that's a very difficult situation and that type of situation
00:13:17 ◼ ► I think what you have to do is I mean what I suggested maybe is insufficient or whatever, but you have to give
00:13:33 ◼ ► So that for example that front page sort of summary of what you should know that's significant and recent
00:13:38 ◼ ► About so the security of your account that's not useful to the abuser it like viewing that doesn't help them, right?
00:13:45 ◼ ► But it does help the person the victim or you know what I mean? It does help the person who is being abused
00:13:49 ◼ ► Every time they feel unsafe or unsure about what's going on. They can go I need to go do a security check-in
00:13:58 ◼ ► I did a check-in I need to see what's important that I need to be notified about because even the weekly thing like this is
00:14:02 ◼ ► the problem when someone has control of like your account even like the weekly check-in an
00:14:06 ◼ ► abuser will just turn off that permission turn it back on get the weekly get the immediately get we get get
00:14:12 ◼ ► Reprompted and say allow and know that they have a week before they have to do that dance again, right?
00:14:19 ◼ ► Like when you're in a situation where someone has that kind of control over your life your computing life or your life or otherwise
00:14:28 ◼ ► Make the system to lock down the system sufficiently because they always find a way in because in the end the person who's being
00:14:41 ◼ ► Lockdown mode is a tool like the Apple has couple lockdown modes like the iOS where it's like certain features are just essentially disabled
00:14:48 ◼ ► Entirely right and again the abuser could re-enable them and do they have that special password for lockdown mode or whatever
00:14:53 ◼ ► But you have to give tools you have to give tools that are not useful to an abuser. I think
00:14:59 ◼ ► Surfacing information that's important or reviewing information that has already gone by here are the things you did approve and when?
00:15:05 ◼ ► Right with dates and everything on them that is useful to someone who's worried about an abuse situation
00:15:10 ◼ ► It is not useful to an abuser. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's just it's a tough balance to strike and you know
00:15:19 ◼ ► Apparently Sequoia will now prompt you monthly not weekly for screen recording permissions
00:15:32 ◼ ► Yeah, it's kind of hard to tell from the betas because people I guess they could set the date forward or whatever and this is
00:15:37 ◼ ► Not in 15.1 by the way or else I would have tested it because that's the beta that I have installed
00:15:43 ◼ ► Even though I still can't because that waitlist thing seems to do nothing. Anyway, if you click allow for one month
00:15:52 ◼ ► Does it give you one last chance and then you say allow forever or does it just prompt you for a month again?
00:15:59 ◼ ► The thing that everyone is railing against is repeatedly asking. I don't think makes anybody any safer does induce alert fatigue
00:16:08 ◼ ► And it's just plain annoying and insulting to the user that they can never be trusted to say allow forever a better system would be
00:16:14 ◼ ► To ask them a few times to be are you sure you sure you sure and then eventually say allow forever and have the allow for
00:16:21 ◼ ► other apps be extreme allow forever screen recording microphone and camera apps be extremely highlighted in the front page newspaper of like
00:16:27 ◼ ► Security check-in like that never go away and just say like these ones are gonna prompt monthly hourly weekly daily
00:16:44 ◼ ► But I'm always wary of doing that because I'm worried that the system is too clever and it knows that I did that and it's not
00:16:49 ◼ ► Going to behave the way it would normally but we'll see one month is definitely better than one week as I said in the last
00:16:53 ◼ ► Episode it's not that I object to even repeated prompting for things that are important because I think that is good but
00:17:00 ◼ ► Repeated too frequently is bad, and I even think repeated on the on a regular interval is also bad
00:17:07 ◼ ► prompt two or three times and space them out a little bit and then give the final allow forever and I think there should be
00:17:14 ◼ ► A power user way to say allow forever immediately for people who don't want to be annoyed
00:17:18 ◼ ► Because that will show up prominently in the security checkup report that does not exist yet. Anyway. These are my suggestions
00:17:25 ◼ ► I'm not a security expert the current version of this dialogue. They're they're trying to
00:17:30 ◼ ► Keep the decision they've made which is these permissions will no longer be available forever, and they're they're trying to say okay
00:17:37 ◼ ► How about a month and that makes it a little less annoying maybe about 4.3 times less annoying, but it's still
00:17:46 ◼ ► because what this is saying is no matter what we're not going to give you forever permission and
00:17:52 ◼ ► Everything you've said about you know the possibility for you know for various malware uses for like
00:18:18 ◼ ► But basically create a massive support burden for them that kind of makes it impossible to really get anybody any traction on this
00:18:25 ◼ ► You know any app is gonna rely on these API's to capture the screen. It's now just gonna have a lot of problems
00:18:31 ◼ ► You know getting new customers retaining customers retaining usage over time like they're just creating problems kind of halfway
00:18:41 ◼ ► Have this strong of an opinion on whether apps should be allowed to capture the full screen
00:18:47 ◼ ► Just remove the API's completely just go all out either do that or have it work for power users like I think if they've decided
00:18:55 ◼ ► These API's are so dangerous and are being abused so much out in the wild that they aren't even aren't even going to allow a
00:19:06 ◼ ► I mean a lot of these things have to exist like being able to use the camera the microphone like they advertise things
00:19:14 ◼ ► You know singing into it and recording stuff in GarageBand, and I know GarageBand is first party app
00:19:27 ◼ ► But it basically means can an application see anything on the screen that is not one of its own windows and lots of applications
00:19:33 ◼ ► Need to do that to perform their functionality. I mean screen shotting applications are an obvious one right well
00:19:44 ◼ ► Which is terribly written says app is requesting to bypass the system private window picker and directly access your screen right now
00:19:56 ◼ ► Something like zoom or teams could use to say like share this window from this app to my call
00:20:06 ◼ ► So that's this this this particular dialogue is trying to get people to use a new API so this one you if you use the new
00:20:17 ◼ ► Do you want to like so there's two different versions of dialogue one is they're using an older API that lets them capture the whole screen
00:20:23 ◼ ► And we wish they would use our new like you know quote-unquote safe system mediated one kind of like the the power box thing that does
00:20:33 ◼ ► And then there's like an Apple framework that kicks in and that Apple framework is allowed to like see the whole disk even when your
00:20:40 ◼ ► There's a system picker for like pick the window that you want to record with your recording application
00:20:50 ◼ ► But your app can't see all the windows because you delegated to the picker right and that works for like zoom
00:20:58 ◼ ► free form sort of like select a region of the screen to do like a screencast like you know I don't forget if a
00:21:08 ◼ ► Work like the Apple one where you can pick any arbitrary region of the screen and record that region of the screen and the system
00:21:15 ◼ ► For Windows won't work that way I think the system picker might also let you pick regions
00:21:18 ◼ ► But anyway there are other applications. Just want to see things that are on the screen like I think
00:21:21 ◼ ► Applications that want to do something graphically I think bartender does this so there's a lot of controversy behind it
00:21:28 ◼ ► But even like a window manager that wants to know where the borders of the windows are and draw things around them and know
00:21:35 ◼ ► There's lots of situations or even like a color picker if you don't use a system color picker
00:21:50 ◼ ► But Maya is this massive cross-platform application that is not going to convert to app kit or convert to the system color picker, right?
00:22:02 ◼ ► They want you to use and also even if you use those frameworks you just get a different wording in this dialogue box
00:22:11 ◼ ► Alerting type thing like as far as again as far as I know and as far as every single story
00:22:18 ◼ ► This is just telling people the news you use newer API's, but then there was an update to that thing
00:22:22 ◼ ► There is no new set of API's that you can use the only hope we have is what we said in the last show
00:22:26 ◼ ► Which is there is an entitlement that some people think will stop you from getting this if you were ever granted this entitlement by Apple
00:22:33 ◼ ► But we don't know if that's true or not because Apple has not said anything one way or the other so I mean
00:22:38 ◼ ► Maybe this is nothing not a big deal and Apple will come up with a big communication and release notes and say here's the deal
00:22:42 ◼ ► Everybody should switch to new API's and this will motivate them to do so or maybe they'll just say nothing
00:22:47 ◼ ► Developers will just figure it out when the OS ships and when they request that entitlement from Apple and see if they get a response
00:22:52 ◼ ► Oh, I want one more thing on this by the way with the one month like how annoying that is versus one week
00:23:00 ◼ ► How about prompt me once a month one time and saying these eight applications have the ability to screenshot?
00:23:07 ◼ ► And they have like you know toggle switches or checkboxes next to them whatever instead of being prompted eight
00:23:12 ◼ ► Individual times once a month like how many applications do you have on your system that have camera access that have microphone access that have screen?
00:23:23 ◼ ► Some kind of decaying check-in interval with the possibility of giving permanent permission if you do it enough times or whatever
00:23:33 ◼ ► It doesn't interrupt your other work or maybe on boot or whatever as opposed to every single
00:23:37 ◼ ► Individual application having to ask once per whatever number of days forever and ever because that is even more annoying
00:23:50 ◼ ► So David writes I worked for a time on the point-of-sale software for gas stations and the sales data says that they're basically in the business
00:24:03 ◼ ► And it doesn't amount to much of their for their bottom line some of the higher-end stores like Wawa or quick trip make a lot
00:24:12 ◼ ► But your typical gas station only cares about those three things next time you're at a gas station take a look at what they're advertising out
00:24:23 ◼ ► But this is also true of lots of businesses like for instance most restaurants the margins on food are very low
00:24:31 ◼ ► And the margins on drinks are very high and so this is just this is kind of just true of lots of things
00:24:43 ◼ ► Here's a quick question do your end users always and I mean always with no exceptions work on company-owned devices and IT
00:24:51 ◼ ► Approved apps yeah, I didn't think so so my next question is how do you keep your company's data safe when it's sitting on all?
00:25:02 ◼ ► Extended access management one password extended access management helps you secure every sign-in for every app on
00:25:09 ◼ ► Every device because it solves the problems traditional I am an MDM can't touch check it out today at one password
00:25:22 ◼ ► Com slash X am our thanks to one password extended access management for sponsoring our show
00:25:35 ◼ ► I guess Sunday whatever day was a few days ago, and we're gonna pick it apart a little bit
00:25:41 ◼ ► It starts with the iPhone 16 alleged camera button, so we've heard rumors for a while that there's going to be a physical button
00:25:52 ◼ ► The way it's been described is that if you hold the phone in landscape such that the lock button is high
00:25:59 ◼ ► Then there'll be a button basically where your right index finger would be where you would expect it to be on a camera
00:26:05 ◼ ► So Mark Gurman writes the new camera control on the right side of the phone on the iPhone 16 Pro models will operate like a button
00:26:19 ◼ ► You can also swipe along the button to zoom in and out while shooting photos and videos well now you have my attention mr.
00:26:29 ◼ ► This I'm surprised this wasn't in the early reports because all the other reports showed this the capture button that we've discussed on many past
00:26:35 ◼ ► Episodes as being pretty long pretty like wide and like almost kind of like the the old like 5g
00:26:46 ◼ ► Much longer than a regular button and that length is like huh, I guess it'll be real prominent
00:26:52 ◼ ► But this makes perfect sense if it's also like a touch sensitive button you can slide back and forth the zoom that would be cool now
00:27:05 ◼ ► Accidentally zooming like bumping out of exactly 1x to be like 1.1 x or something because your finger moved or whatever so I hope
00:27:12 ◼ ► It's implemented well, but that makes a lot of sense because you know on regular cameras you have
00:27:16 ◼ ► So many physical controls for controlling so many aspects of the camera process and the shutter button usually only performs
00:27:25 ◼ ► Maybe initiate initiate focus if you don't do back button focusing or whatever and then sometimes if certain cameras
00:27:31 ◼ ► There's a thing the other thing you can do to zoom or obviously you twist the lens to zoom and on the phone
00:27:36 ◼ ► We just don't have the many buttons exciting to get the action button, and I think it will be cool to get this capture button
00:27:42 ◼ ► But we really are populating size pretty quickly here, so you better make sure the button you know earns its keep
00:27:48 ◼ ► And I think taking pictures one of the most important physical things everybody does with their phone is
00:27:56 ◼ ► I just hope it works without accidental input. I actually have pretty high faith on Apple to do this well
00:28:06 ◼ ► Either adding a button or changing the way a button works or things like that we always kind of freak out
00:28:11 ◼ ► Mmm. I don't know if that's gonna be alright, and then they always release it and it's always fine and or even good
00:28:16 ◼ ► So I have a feeling this will be this will be probably very nice. I wonder if also if this thing says a
00:28:25 ◼ ► Wonder if it will be like press on the left and right edge to go plus and minus because I'm thinking about how this button
00:28:36 ◼ ► Will you be able to shove your finger into that cutout enough to feel like you're swiping?
00:28:53 ◼ ► You know what I mean like they have a cutout that extends all the way to the top of the phone
00:28:59 ◼ ► Maybe those cases become more prominent it definitely throws a monkey wrench into all of the case designs
00:29:03 ◼ ► It's kind of like the action button where people were guessing should we double this button?
00:29:07 ◼ ► You know like my case has its own volume buttons that press the real volume buttons, right?
00:29:19 ◼ ► Can we make it just a hole in the side or do we have to remove the side in that area entirely for the button?
00:29:24 ◼ ► To work and will that you know not protect that part of the phone. It's gonna be tricky
00:29:28 ◼ ► Maybe this will be this is like a part of a grand scheme by Apple to reduce the amount of times people use cases
00:29:36 ◼ ► Thereby increasing the amount of time people break their phones to now boost Apple care services revenue
00:29:45 ◼ ► Do you do you add the phone to make people not wear cases so they break more often answer? No
00:29:49 ◼ ► That was a joke people. It wasn't in there. Yeah, I just want to make sure some listener says that wasn't a document
00:30:01 ◼ ► German writes I'm told that the move to plastic for the Apple watch SC will cut will lower production costs the aluminum case for the SC
00:30:07 ◼ ► Costs Apple about five dollars a unit the plastic shell likely will be about half that I'm told another advantage of plastic
00:30:14 ◼ ► The material allows for bolder colors imagine that than aluminum and is probably more kid-friendly
00:30:21 ◼ ► You can make a little I'm pretty bold as that events by the IMAX the back of the IMAX are incredibly bold
00:30:39 ◼ ► Well, apparently it doesn't cost Apple that much five dollars a unit and now granted that's their their cost or whatever after spending bazillion dollars
00:30:46 ◼ ► on those machining things that machine the aluminum but still and I guess that doesn't also involve like the the finishing steps or whatever but
00:30:56 ◼ ► Which probably translates into like ten dollars of price or whatever depending on how they but the margins are on each individual piece
00:31:06 ◼ ► I guess it costs a little bit less and every little bit counts if you're trying to made a low price phone
00:31:19 ◼ ► that might be used for a watch that might be used by a kid, but I don't think this is necessarily a
00:31:26 ◼ ► Kid focused device. I think adults who want a lightweight watch will also find this appealing especially if it that uh comes in both colors
00:31:37 ◼ ► like I think maybe maybe Apple is selling too many SEs and they want to sell more of the higher models to like
00:31:43 ◼ ► Adults who actually want something that looks nice and maybe this is a way to say this is this is the the kind of you
00:31:52 ◼ ► I think it I think plastic in general has a lot of advantages like John mentioned like weight is a huge advantage of plastic
00:32:00 ◼ ► You know certainly be able to bang it around without too much damage is also a pretty good advantage
00:32:13 ◼ ► Lighter and you know more durable and nicer in certain ways, but I think this is probably gonna make this
00:32:21 ◼ ► Look like a lower end product than it actually is which might be an intentional segmentation move
00:32:36 ◼ ► Eventually Apple will want to squeeze the power of a pro model into the smaller design that feet will likely take until at least
00:32:55 ◼ ► So if we didn't make this as clear last time we talked about the iPhone slim and the fold and everything that the idea that
00:32:59 ◼ ► The slim is the fold was a combination of rumors by a bunch of people essentially speculating
00:33:05 ◼ ► There was no rumor behind that what we have rumors for is Apple's working on a folding phone
00:33:09 ◼ ► Apple's working on a slim phone vague timelines and increasing details about both of them
00:33:17 ◼ ► We know this for a fact the slim is the fold and as Marco said when we talked about this the most likely thing is
00:33:31 ◼ ► There's also a foldable phone and by saying there's also a foldable phone and after telling us about the slim
00:33:35 ◼ ► It's basically saying to me the slim is not folding which was the most likely scenario anyway
00:33:50 ◼ ► Multiple years long right and even the foldable iPad one. It's the type of thing where you're like okay
00:34:02 ◼ ► That's the type of thing you can't find out from like leaks in you know the screen manufacturers
00:34:13 ◼ ► You know kind of iPad like in its capabilities that I think is probably more likely because you know if you look at like what?
00:34:26 ◼ ► Super compelling long term or here to stay for very long then there's the kind of book opening kind
00:34:32 ◼ ► And I think that kind you know Google just released a new one you know and then there in their event that
00:34:58 ◼ ► You know quote fablets back before iPhones got bigger that like the people who bought really big phones back before all phones were really big
00:35:09 ◼ ► But the people who bought them loved them, and I'm kind of getting similar feelings from people now who actually use
00:35:27 ◼ ► Should probably be looking very seriously at it, and it's good to hear that by all accounts
00:35:35 ◼ ► But it seems like the market is buying them anyway, and you know even if things don't have perfect solutions
00:35:40 ◼ ► It seems like the market doesn't care because the utility is so high well the prices are also so high
00:35:45 ◼ ► It's kind of like if you want the super expensive like some of these phones go for like $2,400
00:35:51 ◼ ► Because the most expensive thing on the phone is the screen and this has the fancy ones have
00:35:56 ◼ ► Two screens one that you can see when it's folded and one that you can see when it's unfolded and the one you see the ones
00:36:02 ◼ ► When you see when it's folded and so if you're gonna increase if we're talking about using plastic to decrease the cost of the Apple
00:36:08 ◼ ► Watch SE well if you want to increase the cost of a phone add more screens and add more bigger screens
00:36:13 ◼ ► That's an easy way to do it and remember it because these things fold they tried to be as thin as possible
00:36:19 ◼ ► And so you're losing some battery space because you have case you know you have like case battery case case battery case instead of case
00:36:28 ◼ ► Battery case I don't know. That's I know it doesn't work audio wise visualize it in your head
00:36:35 ◼ ► I definitely think feel like if you fast forward many years as screen technology and battery technology advance
00:36:41 ◼ ► Especially if there's a battery technology breakthrough like solid-state batteries become affordable or whatever
00:36:45 ◼ ► And as screens presumably become less expensive when we sort of start maxing out human perception with screen technology
00:36:52 ◼ ► And you just start making it cheaper, which we haven't quite done yet, but we're getting there
00:37:08 ◼ ► You know better quality screen that you're looking at oh, but by the way if you pry it open inside is twice as big
00:37:18 ◼ ► They're thicker and they have worse battery life and they cost $2,400 or $2,000 or whatever
00:37:23 ◼ ► But yeah if Apple wants to get there eventually they should start experimenting with folding bones and figuring out which form factor do people like
00:37:29 ◼ ► You know they have they have all the market research of all the folding Android phones that have been out for years and years to
00:37:43 ◼ ► We keep reading about it like Apple's obsessed with making the crease not noticeable because when you do have a folding screen
00:37:50 ◼ ► But the substrate they're on can crease and even when it's open you can kind of both see and kind of feel where the creases
00:37:57 ◼ ► And Apple doesn't like that so they're working on that problem. How can we minimize or eliminate the crease?
00:38:25 ◼ ► honestly, I hope Apple gets to that game sooner rather than later because again like the market is
00:38:38 ◼ ► They will start to lose power users because like again like talk to people who actually use these things not gadget reviewers
00:38:45 ◼ ► Talk to actual people who actually own foldable phones if you can find one. They're not that common, but they love them
00:38:57 ◼ ► I really do think Apple really should be taking it very seriously and again by all accounts. It sounds rumor-wise
00:39:08 ◼ ► if it means waiting too long and well in the meantime everyone else is shipping things that are
00:39:16 ◼ ► You know user goodwill and building habits and you know losing power users to a different operating system
00:39:22 ◼ ► That's what they did with the vision Pro though, so maybe we'll get to that in a little bit is it
00:39:25 ◼ ► Yeah, because they use like don't wait until you got the perfect thing everyone else has headsets
00:39:32 ◼ ► Anyway, we have some vision Pro updates first of all there's apparently I didn't even realize this until I showed in the saw it in
00:39:43 ◼ ► This is reading off of record Mac rumors Apple's released a new environment for Apple vision Pro called lake Vrangla
00:39:49 ◼ ► Which is close to Oslo in Norway this release follows Apple's announcement that the Bora Bora environment will be included in vision OS 2 later this
00:39:56 ◼ ► Year its arrival will complete the current environments menu making all 13 listed options fulfilled and usable
00:40:14 ◼ ► There is there will slash our slash are going to be new Apple immersive videos series films concerts and more
00:40:24 ◼ ► Apple's releasing all new series and films captured an Apple immersive video that will debut exclusively in the Apple vision Pro surprise surprise
00:40:36 ◼ ► Recorded in 8k with 180 degree field of view and spatial audio to transport viewers to the center of the action
00:40:42 ◼ ► Boundless a new series that invites viewers to experience once-in-a-lifetime trips from wherever they are premieres July 18 with hot air balloons
00:40:58 ◼ ► I think I think that's right. I watched that one a couple of weeks ago and my memory is garbage
00:41:05 ◼ ► The next installment of wildlife the nature documentary series that brings viewers up close to some of the most
00:41:12 ◼ ► Charismatic creatures creatures on the planet premieres in August. I actually just about an hour or two ago watched episode number two, which was about elephants
00:41:19 ◼ ► Elephants are adorable man. They're so cute and there's some baby elephants. They're so we see it's so cute. Oh my word
00:41:25 ◼ ► I'd like to come back to that in a couple minutes. Let me go through the rest of this list
00:41:30 ◼ ► Elevated an aerial travel series that whisks viewers around iconic vistas from staggering heights will launch in September
00:41:44 ◼ ► Anyways, it's a ride where you kind of fly around through various landmarks and if it's like that
00:41:53 ◼ ► And then later this year special performances featuring the world's biggest artists starting with an immersive experience from the weekend
00:42:04 ◼ ► Behind the scenes and on the court view of the 2024 NBA All-Star Weekend and big waves big wave surfing
00:42:11 ◼ ► The first installment of a new sports series with Red Bull sports series with Red Bull you say even though Max Verstappen is evil
00:42:18 ◼ ► I would love to see some f1 stuff. So I'd like to briefly go back to the wildlife thing
00:42:22 ◼ ► So, like I said, I watched the elephant thing which was you know our video which is about ten minutes
00:42:47 ◼ ► I've had a few occasions to use it and this wildlife video is one of them and I got to tell you I don't know
00:42:56 ◼ ► but if you happen to have one or if you got one second hand on eBay because I saw a report like a week or
00:43:01 ◼ ► Two ago where they're selling for like half price on eBay right now, you know something like a thousand fifteen hundred bucks
00:43:09 ◼ ► Understandable for the sorts of things that you probably would do with the vision Pro, but these immersive videos
00:43:15 ◼ ► They are unlike anything I have seen before and I know that John you and I particularly went around and around the axle trying to
00:43:26 ◼ ► To briefly recap a 3d video is when you're looking at something that doesn't move but it has depth to or by that
00:43:32 ◼ ► I mean if you move your head, you're still looking at a rectangle right that the rectangle is where the motion is
00:43:39 ◼ ► An immersive video is where as you pan you pan your head left and right or tilt it up and down
00:43:45 ◼ ► Your perspective changes because it's like watching an IMAX movie or something like that
00:43:50 ◼ ► So you're looking around and changing the things that you can see and this elephant video is one of the many examples that we just
00:43:58 ◼ ► Talked about but it is really really good and what makes part of what makes it so great
00:44:05 ◼ ► You know, if you recall we complained about the soccer highlight reel because it was like new new new new
00:44:12 ◼ ► So you're always trying to get yourself situated where you are on the pitch field, whatever it was very frustrating
00:44:18 ◼ ► Well, these are not like that. These are very well done and the immersive or the spatial audio was also very well done
00:44:25 ◼ ► They're not zookeepers, but one of the wildlife people is you know, say directly in front of you and talking
00:44:37 ◼ ► Entirely in your right ear because that's the ear that's closest to the person talking. It's really really well done and I had such an eerie
00:44:46 ◼ ► Funny moment when I was watching the elephant thing. It was roughly halfway through the video. So it's like five minutes in and
00:44:53 ◼ ► We were in a field or you know, you know elephant habitat, you know where they're trying to you know
00:44:59 ◼ ► Like care for baby elephants and whatnot. And of course, this is in somewhere in Africa
00:45:17 ◼ ► it was one of those things where it would if it was real it would have like hit you right in the forehead and
00:45:38 ◼ ► I just naturally didn't even think twice about it and kind of shook my head a little bit
00:46:02 ◼ ► Is such a good illustration of how real it can feel and I've been I'd like to briefly bring up one other thing
00:46:15 ◼ ► Myself James Thompson Jason Snell and Mike Hurley all got on an immersive or one, you know, the spatial FaceTime call
00:46:22 ◼ ► So what there was four of us and we were basically arranged such that I was sitting across from Jason
00:46:27 ◼ ► Mike was to my right and then James was to my left and we had like a half an hour 45 minute or something like
00:46:45 ◼ ► It's not the same as that but golly if it didn't feel pretty close like it is in it really does elevate the
00:46:59 ◼ ► But it feels really close and I think also part of that is because the personas have gotten way better in the beta
00:47:06 ◼ ► And so all of that is to say the vision Pro is still kind of goofy and it's still just hilariously expensive
00:47:25 ◼ ► Really start to care and I'm starting to get excited about where where this platform is going in the future
00:47:39 ◼ ► putting them like getting the machine going like what what this is is more promises and samples of
00:47:46 ◼ ► Future things that might be good but here we are like almost seven months into this product and we have so little
00:48:07 ◼ ► Promises and teasers and things that might be good. I don't think this is evidence of enough yet
00:48:14 ◼ ► When next January rolls around and the vision Pro will have been out for one whole year
00:48:19 ◼ ► We're gonna look back and say what did Apple do in this entire year of this new platform?
00:48:24 ◼ ► And I think it's still gonna be a pretty short list and then we're gonna be able to look back and say oh
00:48:31 ◼ ► What what apps exist for it what streaming services for it who else has made content for it?
00:48:48 ◼ ► Here's how many customers are buying it those lines even if you extrapolate them out, you know a year or two down the road
00:48:54 ◼ ► They're still very very low. We need to see this. This is great. We need to see a lot more than this
00:49:01 ◼ ► Yeah, and it's funny you bring all this up because the other thing we wanted to talk about with regard to vision Pro
00:49:06 ◼ ► Is that apparently according to 9 to 5 Mac there are more than two thousand five hundred native apps for the Apple vision Pro
00:49:20 ◼ ► But but hey, there's at least twenty five hundred for vision Pro and that's better than none
00:49:32 ◼ ► 2500 is more than I would have guessed right and obviously every app is not created equal be better if they had a Netflix app
00:49:39 ◼ ► You know like there's since this is a chicken egg situation and Apple controls both the chickens and the eggs
00:49:45 ◼ ► Because they make the vision Pro and also they are making content. They can kind of decide how to resolve that
00:49:56 ◼ ► release first-party content release for the vision Pro to accelerate around the time they release the lower cost one because that's
00:50:06 ◼ ► Don't want to make content till we sell a lot of vision pros and obviously we're not able to sell a lot of these
00:50:19 ◼ ► You spent like Apple TV plus kind of money to make content for the relatively tiny number of people who bought
00:50:25 ◼ ► $3,500 headset that may not be the best use of their time unless all that content is evergreen, right?
00:50:33 ◼ ► Olympics coverage or anything like that because it's just not a big enough audience for that
00:50:36 ◼ ► So they may be holding back and say if we're gonna be spending money for vision Pro stuff
00:50:49 ◼ ► All the things that we just read had launched at the same time as the vision probably like, okay
00:51:12 ◼ ► Even though it is as I keep repeating very frustrating for the people who spent thirty one hundred dollars on this thing
00:51:16 ◼ ► And also like Apple is not like intentionally slow playing this they're pushing it hard
00:51:24 ◼ ► Like I I have gotten three different calls from App Store from Apple Store business reps
00:51:44 ◼ ► Like they are pushing hard for people to adopt it with their apps and for customers to buy it. They're pushing very hard
00:51:51 ◼ ► So they're not intentionally holding back. This is what they have. This is all they have
00:51:56 ◼ ► There's not gonna be I don't think some you know future where all of a sudden a flood of a bunch of stuff comes out
00:52:08 ◼ ► Like so you they're trying to sell you a thirty five hundred dollar headset that you already bought, right?
00:52:11 ◼ ► But that's different than essentially putting money, you know, like like an Apple TV+ content, right?
00:52:21 ◼ ► Record the weekend singing paying the NBA to do the all-star things, you know, like that's production budget, right?
00:52:30 ◼ ► they spent millions and millions of dollars to make TV shows and movies and all that stuff and get Tom Hanks to be in a
00:52:41 ◼ ► But they can choose when and how to spend money on content for this thing and they are spending money for content
00:52:47 ◼ ► But they're not spending, you know, Tom Hanks movie money, right which by the way that movie didn't do it
00:52:57 ◼ ► But saying when we have our schedule over how much money we're gonna spend on content and when that content will be available
00:53:09 ◼ ► Maybe in the beginning like I said before maybe they thought they would sell way more than this than they have
00:53:12 ◼ ► But they couldn't have thought they were gonna sell more than the screens they could get and that was capped at like a million
00:53:16 ◼ ► And so that's like a half a million vision pros worldwide and it seems like they might not even reach that
00:53:26 ◼ ► That would not make sense when the total possible viewership is half a million people, right?
00:53:30 ◼ ► And what you're seeing I think is content that makes sense for a maximum possible viewership of half a million people
00:53:45 ◼ ► You can watch it next year and it'll still be good. It's it's it doesn't age out right but live sports ages out
00:53:52 ◼ ► Little demo reels probably age out because they'll be more impressive stuff. I don't know like we're not inside Apple
00:53:59 ◼ ► I think well, this is not great for people who bought one and it's not great that Apple couldn't sell them at thirty five hundred dollars
00:54:03 ◼ ► But the strategy makes sense to me given what we know about what they released how it sold and the rumors of what's in the pipeline
00:54:20 ◼ ► You would think that they would want to just throw a big old pile of money at this problem and fix it and have people
00:54:27 ◼ ► You would not believe how cool it is to see I don't know say the weekends concert or you know
00:54:32 ◼ ► Whatever the case may be and I'm just a little disappointed that they haven't done more, but you're right
00:54:37 ◼ ► Bear that maybe this is the right amount of content and I both hope they I bet they do think maybe one of these
00:54:43 ◼ ► Hits and will give us a hint about where to really put that money for like the one that you know
00:54:47 ◼ ► The content is gonna come out timed with the cheaper one, right? Is it gonna be concerts? Is it gonna be sports?
00:54:51 ◼ ► Is it gonna be that short film like the things you let off that they're covering a lot of different bases
00:54:56 ◼ ► They're not all just let's take you in a hot air balloon. They've got music. They've got sports
00:55:00 ◼ ► They've got the narrative movie, which is the first thing I've seen, you know announced right like and of course
00:55:05 ◼ ► They have the whole app story, right? I don't think they know which of those things is going to be
00:55:10 ◼ ► The most compelling to people what's gonna make them spend fifteen hundred dollars on the next headset
00:55:33 ◼ ► They don't they are promising to maybe sometime in the future have like one music concert have one sports weekend like
00:55:41 ◼ ► the this all makes sense for them if they didn't need to convince people to buy this and
00:55:49 ◼ ► Well, I mean they don't need to keep you happy if you did buy because they already got your money
00:55:57 ◼ ► This announcement was from July and already some of the things that they announced did come out on the dates
00:56:02 ◼ ► They said they would so I believe that they're actually going to release all this stuff when they say they will because it's not that much
00:56:07 ◼ ► Stuff it's it's a small amount of stuff, but I think what you are basically a test audience
00:56:11 ◼ ► Anyone who has these things and is still actually using it in any way you are the test audience to see
00:56:16 ◼ ► How engaged are you with these things that they release and even though it's a tiny test audience
00:56:27 ◼ ► Which of these things do they do people tell their friends about when their friends go?
00:56:37 ◼ ► We'll see like it's I still think this is a slow burn here and in terms of like OB grade
00:56:44 ◼ ► Well, you know a company's not going to spend tons of money on a thing that it's not even sure
00:56:53 ◼ ► To sell and then to motivate them to make the content and it's up for the content to you know
00:57:01 ◼ ► Well when I'm budgeting all the money we have yes granted Apple has you know effectively infinite money
00:57:09 ◼ ► For example getting out of China takes a huge amount of money in time and maybe a better use of your time than spending
00:57:24 ◼ ► We'll see again frustrating to the people who own them. But so far it makes me think Apple is just
00:57:33 ◼ ► Are they being patient with the home pod or they just not care about it several years and we're like, okay
00:57:37 ◼ ► Well, they don't really care about it, right? Well, yeah, it works out revision Pro right now
00:57:42 ◼ ► How many people right now do you think use vision pro regularly total in the entire market?
00:57:51 ◼ ► Yeah, that's my guess out of out of like maybe 300,000 sold so half of them, right? I would estimate more like maybe
00:57:58 ◼ ► 120,000 only Apple knows I'm just guessing like I don't even know myself so I could not tell you I
00:58:08 ◼ ► Do turn to it from time to time and there are very specific times that I think it's extremely useful to have
00:58:16 ◼ ► Because I have no self-respect. I'm happy to use it on a plane or a train. We've talked about that many times
00:58:30 ◼ ► Effectively doesn't exist like it is amazing this spatial FaceTime. I was talking about was super cool
00:58:41 ◼ ► You've mostly seen it and there's a sum total of what like an hour of immersive video on the entire platform, but it's cool
00:58:53 ◼ ► Interactive storytelling thing. I actually have only done the first like 10 or 20 minutes of it because then I got busy and then forgot about
00:58:59 ◼ ► It but the 10 or 20 minutes despite me sounding blase about it was actually extremely cool
00:59:04 ◼ ► So there are times when I turn to the vision Pro in and there are times when I'm glad I have one
00:59:22 ◼ ► It's definitely I was gonna say an ailing platform. I think that's a little dramatic. It's it's not a platform. That's really you know
00:59:31 ◼ ► But I can squint and I can see several different ways in which it could so I hope it does honestly
00:59:39 ◼ ► I really hope it does because they do have some great engineering in it. There are some really cool ideas
00:59:52 ◼ ► Botched the launch in in really sad and impressive fashion and so there is something to save here
01:00:06 ◼ ► You know potential changes here and there and in both the product and in the ecosystem that they need to jumpstart
01:00:18 ◼ ► It's hard to see it as anything other than a flop and honestly really I honestly genuinely think like John said
01:00:23 ◼ ► 150,000 people he thinks regular the user I honestly think that might be off by a factor of 10 like that's how
01:00:30 ◼ ► This is not like a platform that you see people using you know outside very much because it's not made for that
01:00:35 ◼ ► But like I've seen more Cybertrucks in real life than I've seen vision pros like that's saying something
01:00:42 ◼ ► Cybertrucks you do use outdoors so true and by the way you said you said they were pushing this thing hard if they're really pushing
01:00:48 ◼ ► This thing hard. They'd be giving it to developers that they want to make apps. They'd be giving it no strings attached
01:00:53 ◼ ► They'd be saying you don't have to make an app, but here. We'll just give you one and think about it
01:01:00 ◼ ► Shows that a they're Apple because they don't ever give things away and be that they're still kind of like
01:01:05 ◼ ► We'll just take it slow and steady because I mean honestly they should have been giving them away
01:01:10 ◼ ► That's one good way like give it away to the good developers again using Apple's knowledge of which developers
01:01:18 ◼ ► You know entrust them with free essentially dev kits right, but that's hasn't been the Apple way for a variety of
01:01:26 ◼ ► Cultural reasons that don't make a lot of sense and so if you ever see Apple doing that for Apple
01:01:31 ◼ ► I would say as a sign of desperation for any other company. I'd say it's just good business, but Apple is so
01:01:35 ◼ ► Culturally against that type of thing that's like. We'll make it so good. You'll pay you'll pay for it yourself
01:01:42 ◼ ► Well if you can pull it off great thumbs up, but if you can't pull that off think about giving them away
01:01:52 ◼ ► which they've done before like in very small ways that they if they had a developer purchase program where like a
01:02:02 ◼ ► Or you know something like that like get them in the hands of developers who would appreciate the discount and therefore overlook
01:02:10 ◼ ► Some of the math behind the market and actually get apps out there, but ultimately even that I think that would help a lot
01:02:29 ◼ ► That would be important for it like the like the big streaming services like you know YouTube Netflix
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01:04:59 ◼ ► Let's do some topics and first thing we have to talk about is that apparently the Mac for many will be really many
01:05:08 ◼ ► So this is from Bloomberg Apple's planning a new version of the Mac mini that will be its smallest desktop computer yet
01:05:18 ◼ ► 14 years so a mere three years before we started this program. That's when it was changed last
01:05:24 ◼ ► Device will be far smaller than its presence a predecessor approaching the size of an Apple TV set-top box
01:05:29 ◼ ► Despite the smaller overall design the new Mac mini will may be taller than the current version today's model is about 1.4 inches high the updated
01:05:41 ◼ ► USB C ports on the back of the mini in addition to an area for plugging in the power cable and an HDMI port for
01:05:46 ◼ ► Connecting the device to TV sets monitors people involved in the development of the new Mac mini say it's essentially an iPad Pro in a small
01:05:52 ◼ ► So I wish we had a little bit more information about this my first question is obviously
01:05:55 ◼ ► Internal power supply or not because you can make it real small if you put the power supply in a brick
01:06:00 ◼ ► But that hasn't been Apple's way the Apple TV is really small and it has an internal power supply, and it's pretty cool
01:06:17 ◼ ► This is not a portable as far as I know there's no rumors of this having a battery or anything
01:06:22 ◼ ► What is the smaller size by you I agree that the current mini is too big like we've all made fun of it when the
01:06:28 ◼ ► M1 Mac mini came out and people cracked it open and half the box was empty because they just use the same box from the
01:06:35 ◼ ► Ridiculous power supply there was like two or three times as much power as I needed, but you know
01:06:40 ◼ ► They're just saving money you have the existing case, but they did it with all the M ones
01:06:43 ◼ ► You know devices they just use the existing cases make sense and it makes sense that they would shrink it
01:06:48 ◼ ► But Apple TV size it's getting to the point now where I feel like the cords are gonna pull it off the desk because they weigh
01:06:55 ◼ ► With like I'm all for a smaller Mac mini, but I hope I don't think the size of Apple TV is
01:07:03 ◼ ► I guess that sounds about right, but when I picture an Apple TV size thing and that's my Mac mini
01:07:08 ◼ ► I know it seems weird at that point like maybe make it magnetically attached to the back of the studio display or something like a little
01:07:13 ◼ ► More a whatever like the little sucker fish things. I don't know what they're called, but hey you know
01:07:26 ◼ ► Hope they don't lose too many of the ports like you know the rumor is you know possibly three USB C's
01:07:53 ◼ ► It will be a cost savings for them like to just making it smaller will probably be a lot cheaper
01:07:58 ◼ ► And they will make a higher margin on it, so you know good for them. They need more money
01:08:04 ◼ ► More of them on a shipping shipping container you know to me like all the shipping cost the packaging cost like everything
01:08:09 ◼ ► That's that's in and it's called the Mac mini like it's in the name. This is the one they make small
01:08:19 ◼ ► They will save money whether they will pass it along to us well. They won't but they will save money okay, but also
01:08:25 ◼ ► When you look at the Apple Silicon Series iMacs you know the the new slim colorful ones
01:08:33 ◼ ► Those were desktops that got people excited about a desktop for the first time in a pretty long time
01:08:42 ◼ ► interesting and cool, and they they took it in a different direction that like the kind of got people's attention again and
01:08:51 ◼ ► But it took this one desktop that had already existed and made it cooler and made people like it again
01:09:01 ◼ ► That will happen if they make a very tiny Mac mini that will happen to a smaller degree
01:09:05 ◼ ► But that will happen for the Mac mini, so that's a reason as well, and then I think finally I
01:09:10 ◼ ► Think a lot of Mac minis end up being used in places where space is at a premium things like data centers
01:09:18 ◼ ► Like if you have like a server rack where you have a bunch of Mac minis and some kind of custom mount or something like that
01:09:23 ◼ ► That will actually be you know a substantial upgrade for it for you to be able to fit more of them in a rack
01:09:29 ◼ ► Especially it presumably as they're continuing to be very power efficient and everything like that
01:09:33 ◼ ► That also would be a lot better with an internal power supply as John said so I hope it does keep that and I think it
01:09:41 ◼ ► when you look at how the Mac mini is used like it's used in a bunch of different ways and
01:09:47 ◼ ► Would either benefit or be neutral if it got smaller the only way that would really kill it. I think would be if it
01:09:56 ◼ ► Starts needing dongles for everything that it wouldn't I mean it's not gonna kill the product, but that would start reducing the
01:10:07 ◼ ► Oh, yeah, if a thermal throttle is it that will do so what I'm hoping they don't compromise on is
01:10:12 ◼ ► Thermal throttling good one. I hope it's still internal power supply and again looking at how many of them are being used in like kind of
01:10:28 ◼ ► Apple TV has got got an HDMI port internal power supply Ethernet port like there's no reason it couldn't have all these things not
01:10:35 ◼ ► Well before we get a bunch of feedback not all of them have an HD or excuse me an Ethernet
01:10:47 ◼ ► Ethernet and internal power then it is then it still retains its utility for most of the ways that they are actually
01:10:53 ◼ ► Used so I hope that's what this is. And if they can make it smaller while retaining that utility
01:11:04 ◼ ► I think that's the wrong move, but we'll see so far again so far there the recent history of the Mac Mini has been
01:11:13 ◼ ► It never has it never will but when they have updated it recently it has been pretty good
01:11:32 ◼ ► Assuming we don't lose Ethernet assuming we don't lose at least a decent number of ports like for me
01:11:38 ◼ ► I could totally lose the USB a ports. I know not everyone would agree, but for me, I'd be fine
01:11:47 ◼ ► I concur with both of you that I think an internal power supply is part of what makes it so wonderful
01:11:52 ◼ ► I wouldn't necessarily upgrade specifically because it's so small but I would at least be enticed to do it because
01:11:59 ◼ ► Why wouldn't you oh in thermal throttling? I agree with you John that if it has to aggressively thermal throttle
01:12:08 ◼ ► Would never want that to be my only computer for various reasons about the way I work with computers, but I
01:12:16 ◼ ► Really love the Mac Mini because it is so darn flexible. It can be like a little server
01:12:21 ◼ ► It can be it could be your only computer if you want it to be it could be a server that's co-located somewhere
01:12:26 ◼ ► You know, there's any number of things that can do it can kind of be all things to all people
01:12:29 ◼ ► And if it can get physically smaller, sure man, why not? I I think that sounds really great. So I'm here for this
01:12:36 ◼ ► I don't know if I would buy one, but I certainly love the idea assuming it's not compromised city. It's by the way
01:12:45 ◼ ► Interesting convergence happening between the Mac Mini hardware and the Apple TV hardware
01:13:01 ◼ ► Ethernet port and USB ports rather like two rounded rectangles one's aluminum ones plastic
01:13:12 ◼ ► Ethernet HDMI and then some USB C's on the mini like they both have Apple silicon in them
01:13:20 ◼ ► like is it just is the Mac Mini of that size just like the world's most powerful Apple TV that doesn't run tvOS and
01:13:38 ◼ ► Remember the days when the Apple TV was a thing that ran Mac OS right before it ran tvOS or whatever
01:13:44 ◼ ► There is like we talk about the platform convergence and or lack thereof between iPad and Mac
01:13:51 ◼ ► What is it about tvOS that couldn't just be an app that ran on a Mac Mini because once it gets to be that small
01:13:58 ◼ ► It used to be that people would put their Mac Minis on their next to their TVs before streaming boxes existed before the Apple TV
01:14:04 ◼ ► Is it because you could you know run a Plex server on it connected to your TV so on and so forth and you want to?
01:14:08 ◼ ► Be small because it have to be with your TV junk right that's why the Apple TV is very small and unobtrusive and like
01:14:19 ◼ ► And you know the presumably the Mac Mini won't or will it we'll see but at a certain point Apple making two
01:14:25 ◼ ► puck sized things with Apple silicon SOCs in them at two different prices just starts to look like a
01:14:44 ◼ ► And it just runs everything you see there. It's a full-screen app it takes over everything it
01:14:48 ◼ ► Answers to the remote you know you know I mean like there's I don't think there's any maybe I'm wrong
01:14:52 ◼ ► Maybe there's some part of tvOS that's specifically tailored to have some sort of like real-time feeding of but I feel like everything
01:14:58 ◼ ► That's doing is so within the power of the SOC like it's so not a big deal to the SOC this call
01:15:03 ◼ ► Just be an app. I mean it's not it's not that different in terms of you know technical grunt
01:15:11 ◼ ► The kind of you know like the the realities of hooking it up managing it the capabilities it has so like you know for instance
01:15:18 ◼ ► Try to try to configure a Mac never connecting a keyboard to it. It's it can be difficult
01:15:34 ◼ ► You've run into these complexities before you know this like you you know that it's fairly different also
01:15:50 ◼ ► I'm like it's just it's it's a super super high end, but I'm saying is they're both Apple
01:15:55 ◼ ► So then they both have RAM they both run the same boat base OS right you could have a Mac OS
01:15:59 ◼ ► You know boot into essentially like at ease or whatever you know the thing that works the remotes anyway
01:16:04 ◼ ► I'm just the the hardware at the very least is converging if not the software and the software is close enough to each other that
01:16:10 ◼ ► They could really have one thing that did both of them. I'm not saying they should combine them
01:16:13 ◼ ► I think they should probably remain separate, but it's very interesting that they're there. What is it a?
01:16:20 ◼ ► Congenation I probably pronounced it wrong where so many different animals on earth have essentially evolved into crab shapes
01:16:26 ◼ ► Independently along different lines like they're not actually related to each other evolutionarily, but everyone's ends up at crab well
01:16:39 ◼ ► Rounded rectangle puck shape well, we'll see what happens, but like I said, I'm excited for this
01:16:53 ◼ ► We don't have to actually talk about this that much if we don't want to because I'm also in a good mood
01:17:06 ◼ ► My career that I've made in part by calling on Apple when they've been jerks Apple's being a jerk to patreon again more app store
01:17:13 ◼ ► Bs again Apple is doing horrible things again with the app store commissions again like do we actually
01:17:23 ◼ ► How just terrible this whole thing is and how much they're ruining the reputation especially among creators like my god
01:17:37 ◼ ► They make half their profit is coming from making great products and the other half of their profit is
01:17:54 ◼ ► Slightly different take on this like well, let's just say what the story is first. I was gonna say let's let's set the stage here
01:18:02 ◼ ► All right, so patreon put up a blog post. I think was yesterday as we record it was early in the week
01:18:08 ◼ ► Reading bits and pieces from the blog post as we first announced last year and will link to their original blog post about this
01:18:14 ◼ ► Apple's requiring that patreon use their in-app purchasing system and remove all other billing systems from the patreon iOS app by November 2024
01:18:21 ◼ ► Again, this is patreon patreon zone blog post. This has two major consequences for creators number one
01:18:27 ◼ ► Apple will be applying their 30% app store fee to all new memberships purchased in the patreon iOS app in addition to anything bought in
01:18:40 ◼ ► We'll have to switch over to subscription billing to continue to earning in the iOS app
01:18:44 ◼ ► Because that's the only billing type apples in-app purchase system supports. So patreon just in case you're not aware
01:18:51 ◼ ► Patreon is a way that you can say hey, you're like, let's say ATP was on patreon. We're not let's say we were we could say
01:18:58 ◼ ► You know, hey every time we release an episode you can pledge to give us a dollar ten dollars a hundred dollars
01:19:07 ◼ ► every month on the first of the month you're going to give us, you know, eight bucks or whatever the case may be and
01:19:12 ◼ ► You can do all this to the patrons website and that isn't a possible in iOS in the iOS app store
01:19:22 ◼ ► Apple's fee will not impact your existing members who only affect new memberships purchased in the iOS app from November onward
01:19:29 ◼ ► We've been working closely with creators to figure out the best way to help you avoid earnings disruption
01:19:37 ◼ ► We've built an optional tool that can automatically increase your prices only in the iOS app to offset the cost of Apple's fee
01:19:44 ◼ ► This way you'll continue to earn at least the same amount per membership as you do on all other platforms
01:19:49 ◼ ► Apple's in-app purchase system on the other hand only supports patreon subscription billing model
01:20:03 ◼ ► Apple's also made it clear that if creators on patreon continue to use unsupported billing methods or disabled transactions in their iOS app
01:20:09 ◼ ► We will be at risk of having the entire app removed from their App Store. Are you kidding?
01:20:19 ◼ ► Like the surprising thing is that it lasted this long Apple's entire business model is again selling products and then
01:20:33 ◼ ► Shaking down as many people as possible. They Apple makes a lot of money from hardware and a lot of money from rents
01:20:41 ◼ ► That's what this is. And so they are going like this is a pattern they've been doing for a long time
01:20:45 ◼ ► They're basically scrounging around the couch cushions of every possible app that's in the App Store
01:20:53 ◼ ► Where can we squeeze more money that we haven't been able to squeeze or that we haven't squeezed before they haven't tried to speak before
01:20:58 ◼ ► And they are basically hunting around the App Store looking around saying hey looks like you're making some money
01:21:03 ◼ ► We we need a piece of that and you know, they will a big stick like so that's this is a pattern
01:21:10 ◼ ► They've been doing for a long time and it's not necessarily like that. Somebody was breaking the rules and they go catch them
01:21:20 ◼ ► Usually it's like kind of a vague edge of the rules where like something has been okay for a while and Apple suddenly decides
01:21:45 ◼ ► Alright, so there's this thread on master mastodon from cid rhea and cid rhea writes. It's not clear to me
01:21:53 ◼ ► Why would allow patreon to take 5% above and beyond payment processing when I can just get subscription service from PayPal for the price of payment
01:22:00 ◼ ► Processing Oh God, let me tell you you do not want to use PayPal for subscriptions. Trust me
01:22:13 ◼ ► But my god, you do not want to use PayPal for this if those are your two choices pick patreon. Trust me
01:22:24 ◼ ► If you don't offer me that then I can get what you're selling for much cheaper elsewhere. So
01:22:55 ◼ ► There's lots of edge cases in gray areas during the pandemic people are given like yoga sessions
01:23:00 ◼ ► And they were doing them over the computer instead of in person and apples like is that a digital good?
01:23:11 ◼ ► Is kind of I mean it's not so much in a gray area except that like Apple didn't charge them originally
01:23:17 ◼ ► And they're really big and important and apples like I just let him be because it's kind of a physical thing like oh people are
01:23:24 ◼ ► Trying to fund a cooler and the cooler gets made well as Kickstarter a patreon is like you're gonna
01:23:31 ◼ ► And they're gonna pay you to do it because they're like your patrons patron of the arts or whatever like patreon you get happy
01:23:37 ◼ ► You'll pay for anything literally anything right some of that stuff happens in the physical world some of it happens
01:23:54 ◼ ► Would eventually come for patreon and say well you're kind of like a digital thing or you're more towards a little thing so you want
01:24:05 ◼ ► What are we already getting money from and that we care about let's just say that's our rule right?
01:24:09 ◼ ► What actually makes sense and what a lot of the feedback about patreon has been discussing is?
01:24:14 ◼ ► And link it for the 17th time in the show my art of the possible pose on hypercritical where it's like
01:24:23 ◼ ► Applying business terms to people will make them reshape their businesses to fit the cut that Apple wants
01:24:37 ◼ ► There's not a 30% for you like this is a low margin business that every cent is already accounted for by various people in
01:24:43 ◼ ► The value chain there's not another 30 cents for a 30% for you or 15% or 5% or any percent right like
01:24:54 ◼ ► They're doing and there's just no money left for you and apples like we'll just change the shape of your entire industry and/or business
01:24:59 ◼ ► to make it so that this percentage is available to us because that's the way it should be and
01:25:04 ◼ ► What I wrote in this blog post is like look Apple you can try that but if it turns out that those businesses
01:25:11 ◼ ► Then you just miss out on those and the example that I've seen coming up during this whole kerfuffle is the one that has been
01:25:18 ◼ ► Coming in for years and came up when it was actually relevant was ebooks right you've got authors publishers
01:25:26 ◼ ► Establish royalty and fee structure from publishers to resellers and retailers and everything I was in that business
01:25:33 ◼ ► I know where all the percentages go they're all accounted for right and yes the author kind of gets screwed
01:25:46 ◼ ► For the maker of the phone that you bought the song right that's not part of the value chain and apples like we think we should
01:26:10 ◼ ► That percentage is not becoming available that business has not reshaped itself to fit Apple's desire to get that fee
01:26:19 ◼ ► You know connects people who want to pay for a thing with someone who wants to get paid for doing it
01:26:24 ◼ ► Whatever that thing is you know whether they want it you want to pay them per painting they make or on a monthly basis or?
01:26:31 ◼ ► Do that's between you that's between the the patrons and the person who has the patreon and page
01:26:36 ◼ ► Patreon is the platform that enables that to happen and patreon takes a cut for being the platform that makes that happen
01:26:44 ◼ ► Their fees have a range like if you if you got into patreon like really early like you know when patreon first launched
01:26:56 ◼ ► And there's other fees and they charge for payment processing and currency conversion, and you know there's fees fees fees right?
01:27:02 ◼ ► But the point is if you add up all of patreon fees in the worst case scenario like you know for the privilege of me
01:27:08 ◼ ► Doing this thing for letting people sign up to give you money for collecting the money from them for them paying you out from the money
01:27:27 ◼ ► Patreon is the business that connects people and people who do things and people who want to pay them for it right?
01:27:38 ◼ ► Where the app is that people use your service through and so we want a bigger cut sometimes
01:27:49 ◼ ► We think we provide three times the value that you the actual platform does I can understand patreon saying
01:27:56 ◼ ► There's not really room in our business for someone to make three times as much as we do on every transaction, right?
01:28:04 ◼ ► A lot of people are mad at patreon right now because you know some people are like well patreon rather than saying okay
01:28:12 ◼ ► It's 30% because patreon is a huge company each individual person who has a thing on patreon
01:28:21 ◼ ► Don't they qualify for the small business blah blah blah well patreon does not qualify for the small business blah blah blah
01:28:27 ◼ ► But they make more than whatever million dollars or whatever so patreon has to pay the big amount not the small business program amount
01:28:35 ◼ ► A lot of people are saying patreon how about you just get your app out of the App Store?
01:28:41 ◼ ► That's how a lot of people use patreon is the app so important that you're going to give Apple 30%
01:29:05 ◼ ► But every single person who plays for a patreon is gonna be paying 30% more and that 30% is gonna be going to Apple and
01:29:10 ◼ ► If you told them hey, we're going to you know you subscribe to this patreon for this person
01:29:22 ◼ ► I know where the website is this website does not require the phone to exist it works fine on the web
01:29:30 ◼ ► I don't think I want to give 30% of my money to Apple like if you told someone I'm paying $5 a month
01:29:40 ◼ ► Sorry 30% is going to Apple wait what 8% goes to patreon 30% goes to Apple and the rest goes to the person
01:29:49 ◼ ► They don't get anything which by the way you probably can't even tell them unless you're in the EU, but anyway
01:29:55 ◼ ► Why are you doing this especially the people like that thing you read from the thread of mass on it's like the reason I use
01:29:59 ◼ ► Patreon is because I can let people pay me for every sculpture that I make if I don't make a sculpture
01:30:03 ◼ ► I don't get paid every sculpture. I make this person pledged to pay me $1 right so I put out a new sculpture
01:30:11 ◼ ► In that purchase doesn't support that all right or paying even something as simple as paying on the first of the month
01:30:17 ◼ ► You're like oh month these descriptions exist, but they don't all start in the first of the month
01:30:26 ◼ ► But Apple doesn't support that within that purchase so patreon saying not only will we pass along the 30% cost if you want us
01:30:32 ◼ ► To or not if you and then you can just pay the 30% we don't care who pays it or whatever
01:30:36 ◼ ► But we're eliminating those other two things where you get paid for every sculpture you make and you get paid on the first of the month
01:30:41 ◼ ► Because iOS and that person doesn't support that we're just going to eliminate that for anyone who uses the iOS app only people who use
01:30:47 ◼ ► The web can do that and then furthermore we won't even provide an option in the app that says I
01:30:57 ◼ ► But I don't want to use it to pay because if we did that Apple said apparently they'll take the app off the App Store
01:31:06 ◼ ► But this is I think just another example of a business that Apple wants to insert themselves into that
01:31:11 ◼ ► Just doesn't have that much of money laying around for them. The users don't want to supply it
01:31:20 ◼ ► They're taking 30% of the whole price if you pledge $1 a month 30 cents of that goes to Apple
01:31:25 ◼ ► Right and whatever percent goes to patreon and then the rest, you know goes to the person you're actually trying to pay
01:31:32 ◼ ► Apple simply can insert itself into certain businesses because they're already established and the cut is already, you know
01:31:41 ◼ ► Acceptable to all involved and when Apple power shoots in and say we want a fairly large percentage
01:31:47 ◼ ► sometimes we want the second largest percentage because the person who's who owns the patreon is getting the largest amount still and
01:31:52 ◼ ► Then Apple second and then patreon a distant third that just doesn't make sense to people
01:32:01 ◼ ► Honestly, I don't even know how it makes sense to Apple because I don't feel like patreon is gonna be make them as much money as like
01:32:09 ◼ ► It's yet another, you know, it's kind of like wish casting wouldn't it be great if 30% of this existing business could go to us
01:32:19 ◼ ► I can look at all sorts of businesses and say wouldn't it be great if like how much of a percentage of
01:32:23 ◼ ► Patreons business should the internet service providers have how much should the cellular companies have all those facilitate the transactions that are taking place?
01:32:33 ◼ ► shouldn't they get like 15% and when you if you start doing that and saying everybody along the chain is going to get some big percent that
01:32:40 ◼ ► They're gonna, you know boost their stock price and their earnings reports or whatever. It doesn't work. It's not sustainable
01:32:57 ◼ ► You pay one dollar and three cents of that dollar gets to the person you wanted to pay and the rest goes to
01:33:03 ◼ ► millions of different middle parties that have somehow found their way to into this business and that you have to pay because they're
01:33:16 ◼ ► Especially established business for new parties to come in even if they're part of the value chain and Apple is part of the value chain
01:33:24 ◼ ► How much place is there for them to come in and to demand money for the things that take place there?
01:33:31 ◼ ► I'm kind of surprised that Apple doesn't say well if you use Safari when you go to patreon.com we get 30%
01:33:37 ◼ ► but if you use Safari we get 30% because we're facilitating that transaction by having a web browser that we make and they are
01:33:57 ◼ ► People are mad at Apple people who are on patreon are mad that they have to figure out some other alternative a lot of these shenanigans
01:34:08 ◼ ► But people were asking the chat room don't you guys use patreon? Don't you use memberful?
01:34:11 ◼ ► We are in the privileged position not to have to do that because we're software developers
01:34:20 ◼ ► We use stripe which is a payment processor, which is an extremely difficult thing to do
01:34:25 ◼ ► 3% yeah, they charge what payment processors charge, you know and patreon probably uses stripe behind the scenes and patreon
01:34:34 ◼ ► Charges for payment processing and I get they'd probably have make a little profit and the rest of that money goes to their actual payment
01:34:48 ◼ ► we can do it because we're a bunch of nerd programmers in a nerd podcast and no we're not gonna start a competing business with
01:35:01 ◼ ► End up taking more and more of the money and this point at this point like not taking more of it
01:35:06 ◼ ► But like, you know Apple takes more of the money and patreon allows you to pass it on to your customers or to pay it yourself
01:35:10 ◼ ► It just makes the people who are stranded there people who can't and don't want to write their own membership systems
01:35:19 ◼ ► That's why patreon exists and all of a sudden prices are going up 30% and I'm getting none of that
01:35:23 ◼ ► That's not a good feeling for anybody and honestly, I really you know, Guru wrote about this today
01:35:31 ◼ ► That's the what it's come to right now is that people are so against Apple in this that they're saying
01:35:37 ◼ ► These companies should just not be in the App Store. It's not worth it the vet like that's what people always say
01:35:41 ◼ ► if you just think if you don't think Apple's cut is worth it take your app out of the App Store and now finally we're
01:35:45 ◼ ► Getting a concrete scenario in an app that people are familiar with the saying. Yeah, pull the patreon app
01:35:50 ◼ ► It is not an essential part of the patreon process and maybe patreon knows something that we don't maybe they know that that is their
01:35:58 ◼ ► In which case maybe Apple does deserve some percentage over or whatever, but honestly, we're never gonna find out until someone
01:36:05 ◼ ► Tests that theory because I feel like the web is a perfectly reasonable. We don't have an app
01:36:12 ◼ ► We just have a website ATP at FM slash join every single one of our members went through that at website to join
01:36:18 ◼ ► There is no iOS app you can use to join our membership program. It's only on the web and yet somehow
01:36:58 ◼ ► But the the role they take here is the role of a monopolist and when a monopolist starts having
01:37:16 ◼ ► You know force them to behave differently in certain ways to protect the health of the entire market
01:37:22 ◼ ► There is no question that Apple has reached that status that Apple is abusing that monopoly power to extract things
01:37:49 ◼ ► I think he has done all the good he's going to do and it's time for it's time for a different strategy
01:37:57 ◼ ► I need my own sound effect for this. Yeah we need a sound effect for when a market calls for Apple executives to be fired
01:38:03 ◼ ► But but where where does this end? What is the strategy here? Exactly that the strategy here is begging for regulation
01:38:10 ◼ ► But like if you want to see what Apple's model was like I mentioned the music labels the music labels have established
01:38:16 ◼ ► Established a business where essentially this is the case that the middle party gets most of the money and the artist
01:38:22 ◼ ► Gets like the smallest amount and to some degree the the movie industry has done that a little bit
01:38:30 ◼ ► There are existing businesses that are shaped like that and I bet Apple looks at the music industry and says wow
01:38:38 ◼ ► Whatever pennies are left go to the artist and the most successful artists are still millionaires
01:38:43 ◼ ► But the but the the you know the music labels are billionaires and obviously digital music and streaming and all other stuff is sort of
01:38:50 ◼ ► Put a dent in that business, but that's a business model that a business person could look at and say wow, that's great
01:38:54 ◼ ► We should have that for us, but I don't think you can retroactively make that happen. Like patreon is not a new website or concept
01:39:01 ◼ ► It's been around for a long time and the percentages are what they are and they have competition in this area
01:39:15 ◼ ► We have the best features people like to use our site and we won't take as much of your money as the competitor
01:39:21 ◼ ► But Apple's not competing on that ground. They're just saying there's an existing business and
01:39:25 ◼ ► If you squint it looks like a digital thing and we say we get a part of all digital stuff that goes through our phone
01:39:33 ◼ ► Started from zero and they arrived on our phone and then that purchase made them tons of money or whatever, right?
01:39:39 ◼ ► but existing businesses aren't already shaped like that and they're coming in saying make room for us make room for us and
01:39:55 ◼ ► Obviously, they already sell digital music and do streaming and do all this stuff or whatever
01:40:02 ◼ ► Well, but but they did that they they innovated their way into that by saying we'll find a way to sell your music in a
01:40:06 ◼ ► Way that people will buy it and they did it with the iTunes store and then streaming in most cases streaming
01:40:11 ◼ ► The labels are still getting most of the money. It's not Apple taking the large chunk of the money there, right?
01:40:14 ◼ ► Although I think Spotify would have some dispute with the term competing their way into that
01:40:27 ◼ ► Competition that was partially fair and and also the artists were already getting screwed there, right?
01:40:33 ◼ ► Seriously getting screwed right and so they continue to get screwed. It's terrible, right?
01:40:36 ◼ ► But here arguably the people who use patreon and we're like, they're okay with this deal
01:40:40 ◼ ► They're like I give patreon 8% and it's well worth it because I can't I'm not a programmer
01:40:46 ◼ ► I want the people who give me money to have the least friction possible and people know how to use patreon or whatever
01:40:52 ◼ ► Similar I was that you're using and for that I give them 8% and it's well worth it to me
01:41:01 ◼ ► Starts to be a different deal, right? And again you say well, that's just through the house up
01:41:07 ◼ ► They can continue doing it through the web, right? I don't know what the funnels look like
01:41:10 ◼ ► Maybe Apple is calculating that they are such an important funnel and I keep using that term
01:41:22 ◼ ► What is the split right if iOS is such an important platform for making patreon money that they feel like they can't leave
01:41:35 ◼ ► We are gonna do this and price is just gonna go up from everybody and what this should make people think is getting back to
01:41:54 ◼ ► Is and they are able to take that percentage because they are the funnel because they are a duopoly, right?
01:42:01 ◼ ► It's like well Apple is the funnel the Apple gives you all your customers. You should pay them percentage
01:42:08 ◼ ► To get your app on the iPhone in front of people's faces other than progressive web apps
01:42:15 ◼ ► And that's why like it's not like they're they're the funnel because they do such a great job there except for in the EU
01:42:24 ◼ ► Put apps on people's phones right and Android than the Google Play Store. They're not exclusive, but they are the vast majority, right?
01:42:31 ◼ ► that's that's the the root of this is that they have you know, they can command those prices because they are the funnel because they are
01:42:39 ◼ ► Striking at the heart of that is not saying Apple can't charge patreon money. It's saying
01:42:43 ◼ ► Why should Apple be the exclusive distributor of apps and it gets back to the whole EU DMA thing or whatever
01:42:56 ◼ ► Break the exclusivity of distribution that it is the root of all this stuff over here in the u.s. We're mostly just
01:43:02 ◼ ► Being sad that patreon is going to be charging a lot more money and none of that money is gonna be going to occur to the
01:43:11 ◼ ► Making patreon competitors that don't use the App Store or whatever. All of those are just kind of like hacking away at the leaves
01:43:20 ◼ ► The root of this whole problem is the Android iOS duopoly and maybe the Department of Justice is gonna help with that
01:43:30 ◼ ► How about what if a church has an app you want to take one to take 30% of a church's donations?
01:43:35 ◼ ► What about different charities and nonprofits? Can you take 30% of all their income too if they happen to have apps?
01:43:42 ◼ ► I mean again, why why stop here? Well, you're talking about like, you know, the Apple does make judgments about you know
01:43:54 ◼ ► Like with nonprofits and stuff like that kind of them but that is still the root of that problem. There is still
01:44:04 ◼ ► No, no competitor that can make different decisions to put pressure on Apple other than Android
01:44:12 ◼ ► There's some another fun example of Apple and Android doing very similar things because they're essentially do op lee
01:44:18 ◼ ► and they there's no other way to get on phones and phones are used by everybody and it's
01:44:29 ◼ ► So throw salt over their shoulder whatever and say like thank God the web exists because if it didn't exist Apple would never allow it
01:44:37 ◼ ► You know web the web the platform. Nobody owns not even Google even most times. It seems like they do is
01:44:46 ◼ ► For now, right, but the do op lee is so strong that they could say hey anything you buy using Safari we get 30%
01:44:56 ◼ ► But Apple likes to pretend you live in a world where it's only possible to ever give anyone money using a native app
01:45:04 ◼ ► And buy a membership from us and Apple does not get a cut of that even though you use your phone to do it
01:45:11 ◼ ► You used to be able to do it with computers that Apple would make and you could buy things through them
01:45:14 ◼ ► Apple got no cut of it and somehow the world didn't collapse and Apple didn't go out of business
01:45:24 ◼ ► Steering the anti-steering rule doesn't exist. And yes, I know the EU is basically that alternate universe, but just bear with me here
01:45:44 ◼ ► What's the other pricing you'd tell them the other price or you know, we'll get it for 30% less by clicking on this web link
01:46:06 ◼ ► They'll go to the web the links right there and even better, you know, if Apple actually had to hmm
01:46:13 ◼ ► Compete there it is if Apple had to compete for the business and then in that case you could say, you know
01:46:19 ◼ ► Oh, you can pay a 30% premium to use an app purchase or you can you know not pay that and go to the web
01:46:26 ◼ ► Feel like if that escape hatch was there I would be a tenth as grumpy as I am right now
01:46:45 ◼ ► And so now patreon screwed in in patreon being screwed like that sucks because you know, I feel for them
01:46:51 ◼ ► But the the people I really feel far before which is what you two have also been saying is the creators
01:46:56 ◼ ► These are people who are just trying to eke out a living not different than us, you know
01:47:00 ◼ ► They're just trying to get a little eke out a living doing something creative and they're trying to get rewarded for their efforts
01:47:28 ◼ ► they're a corporation that just wants more money and it's as simple as that and I get that but I
01:47:42 ◼ ► You know trying to do a get as many own goals as they did during the aforementioned butterfly keyboard era
01:47:48 ◼ ► And actually it I would say it's worse now because if you didn't want a butterfly keyboard, you just don't buy a laptop
01:47:52 ◼ ► But here what are you gonna do not use an iPhone like yes, I guess you could go to Android but
01:47:58 ◼ ► So many people are not gonna do that and honestly in Android land is basically the same thing. Yeah, so I just why why?
01:48:24 ◼ ► I don't think it's worth it. And I think what Apple isn't realizing is they're doing damage
01:48:35 ◼ ► I I hate kind of referring to them that way but it's true people are looking at Apple and
01:48:49 ◼ ► Don't know I don't want to be that person that's wishing for the glory days of the years of you know years past
01:48:55 ◼ ► But I can't help but wonder if that's how who I've become when it comes to Apple and I think Marco
01:49:01 ◼ ► It was you that said earlier this very episode, you know, their hardware is incredible and you know what a lot of their software is too
01:49:07 ◼ ► But their policies are just awful and getting worse with every day and I don't really care whose fault it is to be honest
01:49:26 ◼ ► Guess I should do a little introspection about why I'm so worked up about what a corporation does
01:49:31 ◼ ► It's just stinks and I really wish they would choose different options. But anyway now that my rant is over again
01:49:45 ◼ ► Go look at the website or you know or again if Apple will had to compete if the App Store had to compete with the web
01:49:51 ◼ ► Then I feel like this would be a not a nothing burger, but it would be much less of a big deal
01:50:15 ◼ ► So like if you make a thing and you think it's worth X and you set the price way too high
01:50:38 ◼ ► Right and what part do they think is not worth paying for and I think Apple for whatever reason
01:50:44 ◼ ► Inside the company doesn't like they don't not for whatever reason but because they don't have that feedback
01:50:49 ◼ ► They don't realize what part of the things they're providing are valuable and what aren't they just think like we make the platform
01:50:58 ◼ ► The only feedback they get is like the most extreme of like someone pulls patreon pulls their app from the store
01:51:09 ◼ ► The IP that we're providing is worth the percent we're getting and they grumble or whatever they keep paying in
01:51:13 ◼ ► It's like your feedback mechanism can't be if they don't literally stop doing business with us entirely. It must be fine
01:51:20 ◼ ► And so they think like our role in that patreon transaction is worth 30% and no one from from the customers to patreon says
01:51:39 ◼ ► The company that assembled the phone how much of that is the cellular network and like they don't get cuts of all that stuff, right?
01:51:57 ◼ ► Partially because the rules that you made that says people can't even show that hey you could get you could get this for 30% less
01:52:05 ◼ ► People are choosing in-app partners way less than they used to when they see they can get it for 30% off somewhere else
01:52:18 ◼ ► It makes it so they can't tell they can't like I find hard to believe it's like surely they know right but it's increasingly become
01:52:25 ◼ ► My theory that they're they're able to maintain the fiction that these percentages are appropriate
01:52:39 ◼ ► They have captives that it's not a competitive market that it's duopoly and that they set these incredibly anti-competitive rules
01:52:45 ◼ ► And you know, maybe they'll figure that out from the EU but in our long discussion of EU stuff and there'll be more of it
01:52:50 ◼ ► I'm sorry everyone not on this episode, but in the future because it continues to roll on
01:52:56 ◼ ► To make sure that we get all the money that we were getting before and it's just more complicated and that also
01:53:07 ◼ ► I bet tons of people would pay more than payment processing fees to use in-app purchase
01:53:11 ◼ ► But more than payment processing fees and 30% or even 15% there's still a gap there. What is the gap?
01:53:25 ◼ ► Apple is offering these terms and they're all on the same phone and they all have the same access and let's see which business
01:53:34 ◼ ► Everyone will figure out how much we can sure charge for which services and which services people want it which services people don't want
01:53:41 ◼ ► Do you think people would be including me would be so worked up if there were no steering anti steering clause like it
01:53:52 ◼ ► patreon probably wouldn't have used in that purchase to begin with because their business is so sensitive to the cut that anyone takes to be clear
01:54:03 ◼ ► userbase they've already gotten from their own efforts and the and the efforts of the creators that use it mostly they use the native app
01:54:15 ◼ ► Apple is saying you have to start using in-app purchase and of course then pay us by using it
01:54:25 ◼ ► the reason why stripe only charges 3% is because there is competition in that market and we could have chosen any payment processor and in the
01:54:39 ◼ ► And we would switch because it's a competitive market we can do that and you that you the ATP member
01:54:47 ◼ ► Yeah, well they would notice that's a like reenter their credit card details, but like anyway
01:54:51 ◼ ► The whole point is you'd still you'd still go to ATP FM slash join you wouldn't go to a different place
01:54:55 ◼ ► You'd still have the same membership account. You would have to make a new membership account like yeah
01:55:06 ◼ ► But but you know that because that's a competitive market and and ultimately again like this is this is the role of government
01:55:12 ◼ ► I know why Apple is not going to do this because Apple does not show concern for long-term strategy right now
01:55:16 ◼ ► Whether you agree with me that that's Tim Cook's problem, and he should maybe go that's up to you
01:55:20 ◼ ► But right now look at look at where the company is they currently make their biggest revenue driver from deals that are very
01:55:43 ◼ ► It is the role of government to protect markets and and the health of markets and in this case Apple is
01:56:01 ◼ ► you know stepping in to regulate and it's just a matter of time, and I can't wait for that time and
01:56:07 ◼ ► Again, and I say this as an Apple developer who will continue to use in-app purchase and pay the percent in my app because it
01:56:27 ◼ ► You know needs to give Apple 30% and how to be the only option like that's that's nuts if you were patreon
01:56:32 ◼ ► And you launched your app with your own and payment processing and Apple just let you do it
01:56:43 ◼ ► I'm good because you because you already implemented, and it's a much lower percentage, right?
01:56:47 ◼ ► That's that kind of the situation patreon is in where like well Apple finally came for patreon
01:56:53 ◼ ► It makes perfect sense, but they didn't and so they've had years of doing this all themselves
01:56:56 ◼ ► They already wrote that code there, and maybe their code isn't as good as in-app purchase. Maybe it isn't as smooth
01:57:03 ◼ ► I don't know if they do but either way if you had already done that in your app you like you're saying okay?
01:57:13 ◼ ► But what if you already wrote that what if you already use stripe on your back end and wrote your own in-app purchase?
01:57:19 ◼ ► Then Apple comes how about paying us 30% for a better version of what you wrote yourself
01:57:35 ◼ ► And we actually have there actually is a parallel to this Apple podcasts and premium podcast support so Apple podcast in you know
01:57:43 ◼ ► A couple years ago long support for paid podcasts that you could like you could you could you could have people you could as a podcast
01:57:52 ◼ ► Directly an Apple podcast Apple of course takes 30% and as a podcaster you couldn't you could choose to do that however
01:57:58 ◼ ► You are not currently required to do that now. What if Apple made a new policy to say hey
01:58:04 ◼ ► Now that since we have such a large percentage of the podcast player market if your podcast
01:58:10 ◼ ► Offers a paid membership program you now have to offer it through our service, or you will kick your podcast off of Apple podcasts
01:58:23 ◼ ► you know entitlements and extortion pattern you know to its next conclusion like that's the kind of thing they will keep doing and
01:58:32 ◼ ► Very strong power in the podcast market they have you know by most measurements well over 50% of the of the client base
01:58:46 ◼ ► That monopolies be allowed to do that and that's why we have regulation, so I hope our regulation begins to work
01:58:52 ◼ ► Thank you to our sponsors this week tail scale and one password extended access management
01:58:57 ◼ ► Thanks to our members who support us directly you can join us at pj FM slash join where you can use our payment processor and
01:59:02 ◼ ► And we only get charged something like 3% and you can join and you can hear our exclusive content
01:59:18 ◼ ► It'd be over from this week is going to be about the breakdown of max sales by family that was recently published by
01:59:27 ◼ ► We're gonna see kind of talk about the you know what percentage of max are you know different product lines and what that means that's gonna
01:59:34 ◼ ► Be in ATP overtime this week join at a TPM slash join. Thank you very much very much. We'll talk to you next week
02:00:50 ◼ ► vision pro demo that is basically the extent of my VR headset experience until now I'm my
02:00:57 ◼ ► Summer vacation this year my brother brought along the headset that he and his kids use it was
02:01:15 ◼ ► It was exactly what I expected. I mean, maybe it's because I use vision Pro right and you know
02:01:25 ◼ ► I had all the Wow factor I go back to that episode where I was talking about my experience
02:01:35 ◼ ► What was I doing on the quest? Well, honestly, I was mostly playing games. I was playing beat-saver
02:01:40 ◼ ► It's what everybody does with these things. I was playing whatever those other demo type things are
02:01:49 ◼ ► Intellectually with the actual experience and controllers. Guess what? They're really good for games. Everybody knew this
02:01:54 ◼ ► I've said this many times now. I've used one. Yep. Hang controllers. They're really good for games beat saber
02:02:02 ◼ ► Much profound to tell you obviously I'm personally very susceptible to motion sickness and honestly, I'm surprised
02:02:19 ◼ ► Affected my motion sickness. I think it would get justice motion sick if I was playing beat saber in vision Pro
02:02:28 ◼ ► No, there is there's a there's like a different rhythm game. That is I forgot the name of it, but it's not beat saber
02:02:33 ◼ ► Anyway, beat saber is cool game. There's a reason people like it. I thought it was cool. I thought it was fun
02:02:49 ◼ ► But there was table tennis essentially in there some kind of table tennis type game and that was not good. I
02:02:54 ◼ ► Felt like the table that Jason likes I like it the 11 table tennis where you're like in like a like a loft
02:03:01 ◼ ► It's like somebody's bedroom playing. Yeah, I mean, I'm sure all table tennis seems like the same
02:03:05 ◼ ► But I'm sure it was that one because I'm sure it's like comes with some game pack or comes with the headset or something
02:03:24 ◼ ► Like I would I would miss the ball entirely and I'm like, there's just no way I was that ball entirely
02:03:27 ◼ ► It was only for certain motions at certain higher speed the controller John that was totally controllers fall. I didn't miss
02:03:34 ◼ ► The computers cheating it was motion. It was losing motion tracking essentially, right?
02:03:39 ◼ ► The best experience that I've had playing table tennis with motion controllers is the I remember was called the
02:03:48 ◼ ► PlayStation what was it called motion? Maybe you know the PlayStation controllers that have like a pink light-up ping-pong ball on top of them
02:03:53 ◼ ► They're like a black stick with a light-up ping-pong ball, whatever that was called for. I believe the PlayStation 3
02:03:59 ◼ ► anyway, they had like a I think Rockstar or maybe or maybe I think of Xbox when anyway someone made a
02:04:06 ◼ ► Table tennis game with those motion controllers and those motion drawers are very primitive
02:04:11 ◼ ► They were essentially gyros accelerometers and a light-up ball that a camera that was sitting on your TV
02:04:17 ◼ ► The camera would see the light-up ball and that was way more fair in terms of look if you missed the ball
02:04:28 ◼ ► It got flummoxed in a way that I thought beat saber we get flummoxed but beat saber never did and I don't know what the difference
02:04:35 ◼ ► Like they're more like larger motions and less like less space critical because the blocks are so big and beat saber or whatever
02:04:42 ◼ ► Has a sort of client-side prediction thing where it'll be like, I'll just say you hit it. It's fine
02:04:47 ◼ ► But yeah, I was missing stuff and table tennis that I was like, there's no way that I missed that
02:04:53 ◼ ► Whereas the only comparison I have for vision Pro is people have said that they have successfully played
02:04:58 ◼ ► Real table tennis with pass-through on and they were impressed at that work as a demo like look how good pass-through is I can play
02:05:04 ◼ ► Real physical table tennis with someone who's across from me and I'm wearing vision Pro and I'm using pass-through to do it
02:05:09 ◼ ► That was a great demo of how good how low latency how non distorted pass-through is that they wouldn't miss the ball because it was all
02:05:15 ◼ ► Warped or whatever, but I have to say table tennis really did show the limitations of the quest but
02:05:21 ◼ ► Beat saber on the quest it's like Apple you could have this you've got the technology for this what you don't have are
02:05:32 ◼ ► And you know just get the beat saber send the beat table people a bunch of free dev kits and pay them
02:05:45 ◼ ► But it definitely showed me something again that we all already knew people buy these things
02:06:08 ◼ ► Some amount of people and I came away from it saying quest pretty good way to play beat saber
02:06:24 ◼ ► I already thought about what VR headsets can be good for and the money that Apple's leaving on the table by stubbornly refusing to
02:06:32 ◼ ► yeah, like when you when you use the quest 3 like you really see like wow this thing like
02:06:39 ◼ ► 500 bucks that's a really good product compared to the vision Pro like it doesn't do everything the same way
02:06:46 ◼ ► Of course, it doesn't have as high resolution screens. It doesn't have you know, certain specs don't match but
02:06:51 ◼ ► For like a seventh the price. It's a surprisingly good product overall another great compromise is setting aside
02:06:59 ◼ ► Obviously that it's plastic instead of aluminum and it felt fairly lightweight or whatever. I wore my glasses inside it
02:07:04 ◼ ► Oh why because it's not mine. It's not this is not fitted to me. I didn't have the right headset size
02:07:09 ◼ ► This is the one that like my nephews and my brother use a very wide range from like, you know, six years old to
02:07:16 ◼ ► Essentially my age right different head sizes or whatever. It doesn't have special lenses. I'd have to get everything measured
02:07:22 ◼ ► I put my glasses on and I put it over my head and was it comfortable and awesome. No, but it was fine
02:07:32 ◼ ► You just like just do what it takes to get the job done make the thing big enough for people to wear their glasses inside
02:07:40 ◼ ► But boy is it so much easier for me to just pick up put my glasses on put the thing on my head and then
02:07:52 ◼ ► But anyway, I'm just saying like it's just it was so much lower friction than if he had brought a vision Pro with him
02:07:59 ◼ ► I get but everyone thinks they're gonna beat say because I think the game is tuned to make you feel like you're good at it
02:08:03 ◼ ► Because it's actually pretty easy. Yeah, when you wrap up the difficulty you're like, oh, no, I'm not gonna be there
02:08:07 ◼ ► Yeah, it's like rock band. But no, I like I was never good at rock band. I'm pretty good
02:08:11 ◼ ► It's like once you start adding in with the different motions where okay, you can poke it and twist it and pop it