00:00:09 ◼ ► From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 521. Today's show is brought to you by Squarespace,
00:00:16 ◼ ► Vitaly and DeleteMe, and welcome back to the Summer of Fun! I have a #snowtalk, no hashtag,
00:00:25 ◼ ► #snowtalk. Question for you, Jason Snow. How do you like your hot dogs? Cooked, grilled is better,
00:00:32 ◼ ► all beef preferred for me, and then what I think this question is actually asking, I am a super
00:00:44 ◼ ► basic ketchup and mustard, yellow mustard. Okay, ketchup and mustard. That's it. Okay, ketchup and
00:00:51 ◼ ► mustard. I'm more ketchup, I don't mind mustard, but I'm mostly a ketchup guy. I like some crunchy
00:00:59 ◼ ► onions, you know, that's good, that's like fried onions, like I'll have some of that. Grilled onions
00:01:05 ◼ ► are fine, but I'm not going to make any effort for any of the other things. Ketchup is my must-have,
00:01:10 ◼ ► and then yellow mustard is a kind of a nice bonus. At the ball games, I always get it with
00:01:14 ◼ ► yellow mustard if it's there, but at home I will, I have, we have yellow mustard in the fridge,
00:01:20 ◼ ► but I will sometimes just do ketchup and that's fine. I very rarely have a hot dog at home, but
00:01:25 ◼ ► we did have a, there was a period in there where we always had hot dogs at home because it was a
00:01:28 ◼ ► thing that, that my son would eat reliably, and so you stock hot dogs, and then there's a lunch,
00:01:34 ◼ ► and there's nothing to make, but there's a hot dog, and you're like, I guess I'll have a hot dog.
00:01:37 ◼ ► Have you ever had a Chicago-style hot dog? Sure. They're weird, I've had one, they're weird. It's
00:01:43 ◼ ► interesting. Yeah, I like some of it and dislike other parts of it. Yes, I liked it for having had
00:01:50 ◼ ► it, you know what I mean? Like, it's like, I'm gonna have this thing, I had it, it was like,
00:02:00 ◼ ► grilled onions is a good hot dog thing, I've decided. Yeah. I like the idea of a grilled
00:02:06 ◼ ► onion, but some of the stuff that the Chicago hot dogs have, I find bizarre, but that's okay.
00:02:10 ◼ ► The beauty of a hot dog is that you, yeah, I have a hot dog and then you can put whatever you like
00:02:15 ◼ ► on it, and I don't believe there's one true hot dog, I think that it is a blank canvas on which
00:02:20 ◼ ► you can place anything you desire. If you want to put pineapple on it, do it. I don't care. I want
00:02:27 ◼ ► to try that now you've said it, you know? There's a hot dog place in Hawaii that we've been to called
00:02:35 ◼ ► Puka Dogs, and they have the bun that's like, the bun doesn't open, it's just got a hole at the top
00:02:44 ◼ ► that the hot dog goes in, slides in. Oh yeah. And they have one of their specialties is a
00:02:51 ◼ ► like pineapple, I forget what else is in it, but it's like pineapple is one of the flavors,
00:02:57 ◼ ► and it's awesome. That's Puka Dogs, which is sort of near Poipu Beach in on Kauai, so for those
00:03:05 ◼ ► Hawaiian travelers, it's by- It's like a pineapple relishes in their website. That sounds good, man.
00:03:12 ◼ ► It's real good. So yes, I can get pineapple into anything. Yeah, because why not, you know? Why not?
00:03:18 ◼ ► Pineapples, even on your t-shirts. There you go. I can't believe I was going to Puka Dog, but
00:03:24 ◼ ► here we are. Thank you to Matthew for sending in that Snell Talk question. You can send in your
00:03:29 ◼ ► own questions for us to answer on the show right now. We love some summer-themed Snell Talks. Just
00:03:33 ◼ ► go to upgradefeedback.com. Let's do some follow-up, Jason Snell. I'm very excited. Severance is
00:03:42 ◼ ► returning. Not so excited that it's not coming back until January. I was hoping it was gonna be this year. I got so hyped that they were doing a teaser clip, and I'm like, "Oh man," and it gets to the end and it says, "January."
00:03:53 ◼ ► I think, "Oh man." What are you doing to me? So I said to Lauren, "Hey, there's a Severance teaser today,"
00:03:59 ◼ ► and she says, "What? November?" And I said, "Ha ha ha, January." She's like, "Oh, January." I'm just happy it's happening, because
00:04:07 ◼ ► they look like there was a while where it might not happen. It was trouble. It was trouble.
00:04:12 ◼ ► Yeah. I'll look forward to the rewatch before the new season. That's a show I will rewatch,
00:04:19 ◼ ► absolutely. Season one of Severance, for sure. Because I feel like it's a show that you'd
00:04:24 ◼ ► probably want to have had the knowledge of what's happened in your mind for when the new season's
00:04:29 ◼ ► beginning, I feel like. Because it's layered and complex, and I think having some of that
00:04:36 ◼ ► in there is probably for the best. Season one was such a great ride, too. I love the idea of being
00:04:43 ◼ ► able to come into season two fresh. I'm sure they will try to be welcoming to people who don't
00:04:47 ◼ ► remember it all, but that's a show that I enjoyed so much that I relish the opportunity.
00:04:52 ◼ ► Relish, I don't put that on my hot dogs either. The opportunity to rewatch it and then go straight
00:04:58 ◼ ► into season two. Never mind, Phil Schiller will not be filling a seat at the OpenAI board,
00:05:04 ◼ ► after all. This is something we spoke about last week that was being reported by a few outlets,
00:05:08 ◼ ► I think Bloomberg and the Financial Times. Well, now, not only has Apple pulled out or declined
00:05:15 ◼ ► this board seat, Microsoft is dropping their board observer seat as well, due to fear of regulator
00:05:23 ◼ ► scrutiny over the arrangements. However, OpenAI have gone on record to say that they will be
00:05:29 ◼ ► holding regular stakeholder meetings to share progress on their mission and ensure stronger
00:05:33 ◼ ► collaboration across safety and security with their partners, Apple, Microsoft, and others,
00:05:47 ◼ ► to just make Microsoft's life harder. Well, see, I didn't know this until John Voorhees
00:05:53 ◼ ► alluded me to this and I read a little bit about it, The Virtus and Oracle about it. There are
00:06:09 ◼ ► Right, because it's this weird situation where it's this separate organization and yet Microsoft
00:06:14 ◼ ► seems to hold all the purse strings and all the strings, even though it's a non-profit and
00:06:20 ◼ ► it doesn't really operate like one. I do really wonder if the Phil Schiller thing was sort of
00:06:26 ◼ ► brought up a lot of issues that made somebody inside maybe OpenAI be like, "Let's wave it all
00:06:33 ◼ ► off, all of it. Let's just not do this this way. This is making people angry. Let's just go to a
00:06:39 ◼ ► different approach that is going to be, you know, will maybe survive scrutiny." Ben Thompson made
00:06:45 ◼ ► a good point too, which is it sends the wrong message because one of the problems I think Apple
00:06:53 ◼ ► has faced post WWDC is the implication that OpenAI is powering Apple intelligence. Right, which it
00:07:03 ◼ ► isn't, but you're right. Seeing them tied closer, I always thought, you know, it is bizarre, right,
00:07:16 ◼ ► with warning labels, this means he gets to have an observer seat on the board." It felt very much to
00:07:22 ◼ ► me like more of an OpenAI wants to look good thing than an Apple wants to be seen there thing. So
00:07:30 ◼ ► it is absolutely true that people think that Apple intelligence is powered by OpenAI, which is not
00:07:36 ◼ ► the case. So this would just muddy it further. I think that's a very good point. Yeah, I wonder
00:07:42 ◼ ► how this went down and if people just didn't think of it or, you know, it was literally Sam Altman
00:07:48 ◼ ► saying, "Hey, why don't you, Microsoft, you know, Satya sits in on our board meetings. Why don't you
00:07:52 ◼ ► send somebody to sit in on our board meetings too?" And then the adults were like, "No, that's a bad
00:07:59 ◼ ► idea. Let's rethink this." I don't know. Last week we spoke about the potential for a new, well, the
00:08:07 ◼ ► renewed rumors of a HomePod with a screen after MacRumors found some code references to such a
00:08:12 ◼ ► product. Well, 9to5Mac, not to be outdone, have found evidence of a system called Posterboard,
00:08:19 ◼ ► which is hiding inside of tvOS, that will be responsible for some user interface elements
00:08:24 ◼ ► for a design like this. They even have a screenshot of like a wide screen lock screen with a passcode
00:08:31 ◼ ► thing, which is, doesn't, it doesn't exist for anything else. Like this is hidden. It looks like
00:08:37 ◼ ► it's tvOS and it has this kind of like touchable, uh, uh, uh, lock board, uh, lock screen. Um, I said
00:08:45 ◼ ► Posterboard, it's called Plasterboard, sorry, that was a spelling error in the document. Uh,
00:08:53 ◼ ► So many. Plasterboard is the, is the internal code name that Apple have given to this interface,
00:08:59 ◼ ► which I pointed out on connected, uh, that I think actually further indicates the home element of
00:09:05 ◼ ► this because Plasterboard is a material used for walls. It's sheetrock. It's also known as Plasterboard.
00:09:12 ◼ ► Yeah. This is cool to see. Like I love the smoke coming together on this one to give me a fire,
00:09:17 ◼ ► which is a home pod with a home pod with a screen tvOS combo thing. Yeah. That's what I want.
00:09:23 ◼ ► Yeah. Dan Morin and I predicted on the six colors podcast. Uh, I'm going to give this to Dan, but I,
00:09:30 ◼ ► I sign off. He was like next fall for, I think, what'd you say? $550, something like that.
00:09:36 ◼ ► Cause you got to follow the Snell rule, right? Which is what are the competitors and then what
00:09:41 ◼ ► do you think Apple would do? And then you increase it and then you round it up further and make it
00:09:45 ◼ ► hurt. And then you want, you ultimately get to, to a piece that is, uh, much, you know,
00:09:52 ◼ ► five 99 home pod with a screen five 99 next fall. That's, that's Dan's guess. And I think he's
00:09:58 ◼ ► probably not far off that, that feels like it might be a, an iPhone 17 event product. Um, that's
00:10:08 ◼ ► using the same chip that's in the iPhone 16. Um, could be a, could be a mid year thing, but sounds
00:10:16 ◼ ► like a fall thing to me for next year. Yeah. I would sign onto that timeline too. And the
00:10:23 ◼ ► price makes sense because they're not going to skimp out on the screen. Not, not the screen and
00:10:28 ◼ ► not the, the processor and probably Ram, right. Cause this will presumably be an Apple intelligence
00:10:35 ◼ ► device. Right. Yep. Yeah. Yep. Because at this point it really is, it feels kind of like
00:10:42 ◼ ► irresponsible from the product teams to release products that can't run Apple intelligence. Right.
00:10:47 ◼ ► Like even if they're not immediately running it to ship new products that can't support this stuff.
00:10:54 ◼ ► Yeah. If it's possible to do so. Yeah, for sure. Uh, in the spirit of the summer of fun.
00:10:59 ◼ ► Yeah. I don't know if they, this, this is why they chose to do it, but we're talking about it
00:11:04 ◼ ► because it's the summer of fun famed film composer, Michael Giacchino is releasing an album, which
00:11:10 ◼ ► he has re-scored some of his favorite and like most famous, uh, film score and film themes in,
00:11:17 ◼ ► I would say surf rock summer vibes. It's really good. Really good. Yes. It's called exotic themes
00:11:24 ◼ ► for the silver screen volume one. Uh, and it will be on all streaming services and you can also like
00:11:30 ◼ ► buy the CD if you want to. And, uh, it is really fun. There are some previews of some of the tracks
00:11:39 ◼ ► and though I was listening to their track, enterprising young men, which is like the theme
00:11:43 ◼ ► from the JJ Abrams star Trek movie. And like, I started and I was like, is this really chill
00:12:04 ◼ ► And we, I mean, we, this is what we did with the summer fun theme. We said to Chris Breen,
00:12:10 ◼ ► can you do a surf rock chill vibes, uh, version of the upgrade theme? And that's what we use too.
00:12:15 ◼ ► So I love it. He gets it. Love it. Uh, heads up. There's no, there will be no episode of upgrade
00:12:22 ◼ ► next week. Uh, as we're going to be preparing and traveling and all kinds for the relay FM 10th
00:12:27 ◼ ► anniversary live show in London. So Jason's coming over along with a whole host of relay FM hosts,
00:12:34 ◼ ► a whole suite of relay FM host is maybe a better way to put that we're going to be playing a game
00:12:39 ◼ ► of fortunate families in front of an audience over of over a thousand relay FM listeners in the
00:12:46 ◼ ► historic hackney empire in London. Uh, there are some last minute tickets available. If you want
00:12:51 ◼ ► to go to relay.fm/london. Uh, and we really look forward to seeing you all there. Um, I'm so
00:12:57 ◼ ► excited now we're getting so close and so yeah, there'll be no episode next week. We're back on
00:13:01 ◼ ► the 29th. Yes. Thank you for your support. Use, use next week to catch up on other podcasts that
00:13:09 ◼ ► you've gotten behind on it later on in the show. Gonna make some recommendations for shows, but
00:13:16 ◼ ► when we get to ask upgrade, we have some recommendation that someone wrote in and ask for
00:13:21 ◼ ► recommendations. I have some podcasts recommendations. I'm sure you do too. What else could you listen
00:13:24 ◼ ► to while we're not here? You know, and I just want to point out in terms of the value that we provide
00:13:40 ◼ ► and we've released 521 episodes. Look at us go. We're in, we're so clear. So we're going to take
00:13:47 ◼ ► 10 weeks off. We are wide open. Well, cause you know, there were those periods where we were doing
00:13:53 ◼ ► emergency draft episodes. So there's some weeks where we did two episodes in a week. You know,
00:13:56 ◼ ► you say that I know, I know that we're episode 521. Like I know that like, but to hear you say
00:14:10 ◼ ► like a little later on this year, September, the show has been around for a decade, which is
00:14:20 ◼ ► but then there's something about the individual shows. Right. That I still can't get my head
00:14:25 ◼ ► around that me and you have been working together for 10 years, 10 years. Incredible. I don't feel
00:14:33 ◼ ► like I could have been working with anyone for 10 years. And yet, right. And yeah, 513 weeks,
00:14:39 ◼ ► 521 episodes. I would say it's unprecedented, but it's not. I think we have skipped the last
00:14:45 ◼ ► week of the year a few times. Although then we sort of started getting the upgrade and so now
00:15:04 ◼ ► iOS 18 beta 3 is out and there were a couple of things I wanted to note. And I'm assuming you're
00:15:14 ◼ ► using it with some frequency. I've not put iOS 18 on my phone. I have, I have it. I am writing
00:15:22 ◼ ► previews of the Mac and iPad betas for whenever the public betas drop. Uh, Dan's doing iOS. So
00:15:28 ◼ ► I've spent a little less time on the phone, but I do have an, I actually got the watch too. They're
00:15:32 ◼ ► all kind of over my shoulder here. Um, sitting. So I've spent a little time with it, but more time
00:15:37 ◼ ► with iPad than iOS at this point. So in beta three, dark mode is being forced to all icons.
00:15:48 ◼ ► So there are some icons where Apple's doing something to change the colors of the icon,
00:15:54 ◼ ► or they're dimming them if they're kind of like a full color icon, but it's, it's really interesting
00:16:01 ◼ ► to me because it seems like Apple is making some decisions somehow about third party apps.
00:16:09 ◼ ► Like I've seen some screenshots of like the one that stands out to me the most is the Facebook
00:16:15 ◼ ► icon where the Facebook icon is a white F on the blue background and they have a black background
00:16:22 ◼ ► of a blue F and say, Hmm, how do you get to that? So it's very interesting, but it is, you know,
00:16:28 ◼ ► the thing that I was wondering, would Apple do this because brands have their colors and like,
00:16:34 ◼ ► you know, would they force it on people? The answer is yes. So what this will make people do,
00:16:40 ◼ ► which is I think is what Apple wants people to do is to submit like their own dark mode icons and
00:16:47 ◼ ► like, you know, like to submit an icon with the new system where it will, you choose where you
00:16:51 ◼ ► want the tint to be, because if you don't, Apple's going to do it for you. Right. Very aggressive.
00:16:57 ◼ ► I find that intriguing. Yeah. Also, finally, stickers are now, now actually can appear as
00:17:06 ◼ ► emoji. So this is a thing that has long been said, like, you know, these are emoji stickers,
00:17:17 ◼ ► there are stickers and there are emoji, but you can't have like tiny stickers inside of text or
00:17:22 ◼ ► whatever, like you would an emoji. With Beta 3, you can, any sticker can show as an emoji.
00:17:28 ◼ ► You can use them in tap backs, but you can also just use a sticker as part of a text message
00:17:33 ◼ ► and it will appear. So you can now finally, if you want to, use me emoji in place of emoji.
00:17:39 ◼ ► I can't believe it's taken this long for them to do this, but clearly they needed to do this for
00:17:44 ◼ ► the tap back system and also for genmoji, so they've done it here too. Yeah. It's good.
00:17:49 ◼ ► It's good. Finally. Again, it's that in writing a bunch of stuff about, like I was writing about
00:17:54 ◼ ► the calculator app yesterday and I didn't know what to say about it on the iPad other than to
00:17:59 ◼ ► say, I mean, I'm going to talk about math notes, but like the actual app, it's like, I mean, yes,
00:18:04 ◼ ► it's good that it's here. Do I give them credit for finally doing it? I don't know. I mean, like,
00:18:10 ◼ ► it should have been there, but I'm glad it's there. And I feel that way about this too.
00:18:13 ◼ ► It's a, it should have been there, but I'm glad it's there now. It's like, they tempted us with
00:18:18 ◼ ► it so many times and like, here it is. I've only seen it and I've only tested it in messages. I
00:18:24 ◼ ► don't know how it appears in other apps across the system. I expect it's a thing where like,
00:18:35 ◼ ► it's not going to work. Yeah. I think that this is a, yeah, the special thing that Apple's doing
00:18:40 ◼ ► to make these things go in line and treat them as text, even though their images is a thing that's,
00:18:45 ◼ ► yeah. And it's hilarious if you send these messages and then look at an iOS 17 device or,
00:18:57 ◼ ► an older version, uh, because they all just send us individual images, which is very funny.
00:19:03 ◼ ► Beta 3 also introduces a new default wallpaper on the phone that dynamically changes colors
00:19:11 ◼ ► throughout the day, which is a nice touch. Yeah. They've introduced this idea of sort of the
00:19:15 ◼ ► generators for wallpaper and screensavers. I mean, screensavers sort of do this already,
00:19:20 ◼ ► but they're sort of going back and making them wallpapers. This, on Mac OS, they've got the sort
00:19:23 ◼ ► of classic Mac thing that they're doing as well. And it's, um, and it's beautiful. It's really
00:19:28 ◼ ► well done. So whatever they've gotten on the wallpaper train a little bit, and it's a good
00:19:33 ◼ ► thing because these are really interesting and different if you want something, um, more dynamic.
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00:22:06 ◼ ► So Jason, we have something a little bit special today. Do you want to talk about what we're going
00:22:10 ◼ ► to play for our listeners now? A little summer of fun special in this episode. We talked a few
00:22:18 ◼ ► weeks ago about the Vision Pro what if interactive special, interactive story, I guess, experience.
00:22:27 ◼ ► So this was a thing with Marvel and ILM Interactive that they did that's like an interactive story.
00:22:35 ◼ ► We really enjoyed it. There's a part at the end that you really loved. And so we had this nice
00:22:41 ◼ ► chat and I talked with some of the technical people and some of the designers for a little
00:22:45 ◼ ► quick six-huller thing that I did. That was all very nice. And then we heard from, I got an email
00:22:52 ◼ ► from one of the writers of the thing saying it's so awesome that you liked it. Maybe we could come
00:22:59 ◼ ► on and talk about it sometime. And that was really a cool thing. So we talked to the PR people at
00:23:06 ◼ ► ILM Interactive and all that. We set it up. And so we get to have this interview in this episode
00:23:13 ◼ ► where we got to talk earlier last week to Phil McCarty and David Dong, who are the writers.
00:23:22 ◼ ► They come from a screenwriting background, as you'll hear, they writers of this what if
00:23:27 ◼ ► interactive experience, which is, it's not a movie, it's not a game, it's something in between.
00:23:32 ◼ ► And I think it's really interesting to go into how they got involved and what goes into writing
00:23:43 ◼ ► Guys, thank you so much for joining us. We are very excited to talk about this. I am a huge fan
00:23:52 ◼ ► of all MCU projects and especially the what if thing was incredible. I think we'd like to start
00:23:57 ◼ ► at the beginning. How did this project come about and how did you guys get involved in it?
00:24:04 ◼ ► Dave Bouchure came to us and we got involved with him. I believe Phil and I wrote a spec for the
00:24:22 ◼ ► And what's funny about it is our spec was about, it was like a thriller procedural set in VR.
00:25:07 ◼ ► How much of that is sort of like pre-baked or is it more like, because there's obviously
00:25:11 ◼ ► the software and the platform and the story that they want to tell. How much of that comes from
00:25:20 ◼ ► you and how much are you handed kind of elements and saying these are the elements that we need
00:25:32 ◼ ► from Project Inception. There was nothing dictated, if that's what you're asking essentially.
00:25:39 ◼ ► PW; Yeah, that's what's really cool about Marvel Studios. They kind of just let you play and if the
00:25:45 ◼ ► idea is cool, then we're going to do it. I think you'll see some stuff that some characters like
00:25:52 ◼ ► Carol Danvers, Nova Corps, and some certain characters like that, that probably wouldn't
00:25:59 ◼ ► have immediately come to mind, but we pitched them and Marvel's like, yeah, this is cool,
00:26:06 ◼ ► let's do it. From what I understand on our end creatively, this all started just like every other
00:26:15 ◼ ► every other project that starts at Creative. We have to think about what's a story that we want
00:26:22 ◼ ► to tell and then we look towards what is really right for what if. How can this be a plus-up
00:26:31 ◼ ► for people who are big fans of what if, but also kind of turn that and give them something that
00:26:39 ◼ ► they've never experienced before. So it was really the concept was what if and a VR interactive story,
00:26:46 ◼ ► but beyond that it was, you know, come up with some thoughts and pitch this? Yeah, we came up with
00:26:52 ◼ ► a bunch of pitches, yeah, at first. Yeah, it wasn't even what if from the beginning. We landed on what
00:26:58 ◼ ► if. There were some initial iterations that were sort of in like Black Panther space and then, you
00:27:03 ◼ ► know, just various properties. So we ultimately landed on what if, but it could have gone anywhere.
00:27:08 ◼ ► I have to apologize if I'm so used to, I confess, I'm a huge fan of your podcast and I've listened
00:27:14 ◼ ► to both a lot of this and The Incomparable. So I'm having this a little bit like our experience
00:27:18 ◼ ► where you're watching the thing and you're watching and you get to partake and I'm like,
00:27:25 ◼ ► Every podcaster has had this moment where you guest on a show you're used to listening to
00:27:35 ◼ ► and then you realize you haven't said anything. Like the first time that I was on The Incomparable,
00:27:40 ◼ ► I think may or one of the first times it was, I think we were doing Endgame. We did like an
00:27:47 ◼ ► Endgame review episode and I realized I hadn't spoken for like 15 minutes because I was just
00:27:53 ◼ ► listening. It's like, yes, what a great episode. It's me being a bad host too because I'm supposed
00:28:22 ◼ ► where things can kind of be unexpected and strange and weird things are happening. And also the idea
00:28:30 ◼ ► of with the experience of Vision Pro being in a bunch of small sections, like you're dipping into
00:28:36 ◼ ► a lot of character stories, it feels like it fits the anthology style of a what if really,
00:28:41 ◼ ► really well, I think. Having experienced it, it seemed like a very logical place to land on
00:28:48 ◼ ► in the end. AC; Yeah, I wish we could take credit for it. There's also a lot like the fact that it's
00:28:53 ◼ ► not a photorealistic property essentially, right? That we allow for a stylistic environment. It
00:28:58 ◼ ► seems so smart in retrospect, like, yeah, what a great choice that was. We landed there rather than
00:29:03 ◼ ► aimed there, if that makes sense. But yeah, I think that a lot of things made this the ideal
00:29:18 ◼ ► You had to pick some because there are only so many, and there are tech limitations too,
00:29:23 ◼ ► right? There are only so many characters that they're going to build and design in order to
00:29:26 ◼ ► build this thing out. So you can't have a cast of thousands. What drove you to the choices you made
00:29:33 ◼ ► in terms of the characters that are in there? I mean, obviously, what if you're going to get
00:29:36 ◼ ► the Watcher? But Wong is in this a lot, which I always thought was actually an incredibly clever
00:29:40 ◼ ► thing because of the way they build out magic as a hand gesture. And the MCU films and Vision Pro
00:29:46 ◼ ► is all about hand gesture control. What goes into choosing the toys from the toy box? Well,
00:29:51 ◼ ► so for Phil and I, this idea, a lot of this idea started very much as a like simplifying it,
00:29:59 ◼ ► but it's very like, what if the villains you knew were heroes? And what if the, you know,
00:30:04 ◼ ► and what if the heroes weren't who you thought they were? And so when you start there, we
00:30:11 ◼ ► gradually put our guests through, you know, like, well, who's the biggest bad of them all? Thanos,
00:30:17 ◼ ► right? So when you first encounter that, it's emotionally very uncomplicated. You know what
00:30:23 ◼ ► you're doing, even if you've been overwhelmed, this is your first, you know, kind of immersive
00:30:28 ◼ ► spatial thing. You know, this is the big MCU bad guy. So there. Then we wanted to do something,
00:30:45 ◼ ► seventies, eighties, cold war feel. And then that's a couple of iterations in and we came
00:30:51 ◼ ► up with the kind of cool dark man, captain America kind of, kind of story twist on that.
00:30:57 ◼ ► And then finally we wanted your third one to be a character that was very, that you would have
00:31:10 ◼ ► suddenly you shouldn't be so sure that, that these are all villains. So we took like one of my
00:31:17 ◼ ► favorite MCU villains, Hela, that character is so hilarious. And then we, we, we spun her story.
00:31:29 ◼ ► your expectations and, and like maybe, maybe these aren't multiversal villains and maybe I'm not being
00:31:36 ◼ ► led down the right path of, of all this. Yeah. Wong is great as, as magic and all of that stuff
00:31:42 ◼ ► came more to the forefront from interactive, it made more sense to bring Wong in. And then
00:31:48 ◼ ► at a certain level, you realize that, well, Wong now needs to be part of the story in a,
00:31:53 ◼ ► in a big way. He can't just show up and talk and show you tutorials and then leave. So.
00:31:59 ◼ ► So interactive is ILM, right? So the team I'm correct. And it's the team behind like putting
00:32:09 ◼ ► Yep. Great. And how, what was that like that this kind of like the teamwork, because obviously this
00:32:22 ◼ ► during and after, and the experience goes through as you're working with directors and actors,
00:32:28 ◼ ► but in an experience like this, as well as that, you also have brand new technology, brand new
00:32:47 ◼ ► Yeah. ILM was, ILM immersive. They were really good about empowering us for lack of a better word.
00:32:54 ◼ ► You know, we would say, Hey, can we do this? And they would just very cleanly say yes or no.
00:33:02 ◼ ► the Apple vision pro was capable of or not. But I do know that there was a lot of consideration
00:33:08 ◼ ► on their end to determine what was kind of inbound so that they came to the table saying, Hey guys,
00:33:12 ◼ ► yes, this idea is great. Run with it. This might not be feasible, you know, this sort of thing. So
00:33:16 ◼ ► it was mostly us sort of like brainstorming and daydreaming and them kind of giving us a
00:33:22 ◼ ► thumbs up or thumbs down on like what fit within the scope because of the project and the timeline
00:33:41 ◼ ► what both what could be done, what made sense to do, and then dealing with curve balls.
00:33:49 ◼ ► Because I'm sure you guys can imagine even small curve balls can really like force us to take a
00:33:55 ◼ ► story down a different turn. So yeah, it was a lot of that. I mean, it was really such a joint
00:34:03 ◼ ► venture. And even from them to point at creative and be like, well, if this is this, then we have
00:34:12 ◼ ► an opportunity to creatively do this. I know like one of my favorite moments in the thing
00:34:21 ◼ ► came about a really tight partnership. And that was the time stone moment. Yeah, because,
00:34:33 ◼ ► Sharif, Dave, all of us to kind of craft that very specific moment where like this character asked
00:34:41 ◼ ► for help, but as a player, you don't know what to do because we haven't given you the tools to do
00:34:45 ◼ ► it. And then suddenly a portal opens and you hear clink, clink, clink, and we put the time stone
00:34:51 ◼ ► right in your vision. And then it's like, oh, oh, and you start piecing it together. What it is,
00:34:56 ◼ ► right? No one ever tells you how to use the time stone and no one ever really hands you the
00:35:02 ◼ ► solution about how to save Fenris until much longer after most people have already done the motion.
00:35:15 ◼ ► Right. It's set up at the beginning that there's this mechanic. And so when you have that moment,
00:35:22 ◼ ► designers involved in this a while ago, and they said, the challenge here is that it is
00:35:27 ◼ ► an interactive story. It's not quite a video game, right? It's an interactive story. And in part,
00:35:31 ◼ ► that's because if they made, there's a complicated, if you guys made this, a complicated branching
00:35:35 ◼ ► narrative, you would be building out huge sections of story that people would never see.
00:35:39 ◼ ► And so there's one, there's one clear narrative branch, but otherwise it's more of a gentle kind
00:35:47 ◼ ► of like leading you through and letting you participate in what's going on. It strikes me
00:35:50 ◼ ► as being though, writing wise a little bit like working on a video game where there's this
00:35:54 ◼ ► incredible, um, uh, kind of like collaboration between the people who are writing and the people
00:36:00 ◼ ► who are building the technology. Have you guys worked on video games before? Is your background
00:36:05 ◼ ► just in, in like movies and TV and things like that? Um, cause, cause this would seem, unless
00:36:10 ◼ ► you come from a video game background to be a little bit of a, a different kind of collaborative
00:36:15 ◼ ► effort. Both of us, we were like trained, we are film, TV screenwriters. That's kind of our bag.
00:36:20 ◼ ► You're also like everyone on the project, lifelong gamers, right? Like, so everyone has a little bit
00:36:24 ◼ ► of that vocabulary. When I was younger in college, I worked for electronic arts. It's like a game
00:36:28 ◼ ► tester. So I had a little bit in the back of my mind, but how was it not having to do something
00:36:32 ◼ ► that's not quite a game, but it's kind of close. It was really interesting because as a film writer
00:36:37 ◼ ► and a screenwriter, you have like your core utilities for your protagonist to like do and
00:36:42 ◼ ► say things, right? Like they get to do things and say things. And that's how the audience gets to
00:36:46 ◼ ► like, have a feeling about them or like get to know them. We were in a situation where in this
00:36:51 ◼ ► story, you're telling a story and the protagonist, the player can't say a single thing. Like there's
00:36:56 ◼ ► no way for that person to kind of express any sort of emotional agency. There's nothing they can do.
00:37:03 ◼ ► And so on some level, it felt very much like you were kind of like, you know, handcuffed like,
00:37:07 ◼ ► "Oh, our primary tool wasn't available to us." But you know, kind of necessity being the mother
00:37:12 ◼ ► of invention, it encouraged us to like find other ways to have like the watcher or a wang bounce
00:37:19 ◼ ► back emotional responses to kind of an implied emotion from the player, if that makes sense.
00:37:27 ◼ ► we were, you know, a family of gamers essentially. So that shorthand was already like built in. Like
00:37:32 ◼ ► we all knew that that was a limitation, but it was definitely different from our traditional writing.
00:37:38 ◼ ► CB; Yeah. I don't have any professional experience building a game, but I have played enough games in
00:37:45 ◼ ► my life to certainly be able to put myself in the shoes of my audience, which is always really
00:37:50 ◼ ► important to me when I'm writing something. So I know what this is going to look like from the
00:37:55 ◼ ► audience perspective, whatever we're writing or whatever we're working on. And like Phil said,
00:38:00 ◼ ► your tools change when you're in interactive, right? So you no longer have control of the camera.
00:38:06 ◼ ► I took this great course at UCLA about games writing, I think by like John Kaelin. And it
00:38:13 ◼ ► turned me on to a thought that was really interesting where like in interactive writing,
00:38:18 ◼ ► you're not really in control of time, you're in control of place, right? What you're really doing
00:38:24 ◼ ► is you're shuttling your player in this instance from location to location, and they're discovering
00:38:30 ◼ ► the story there on their own terms, of course, within reason. So that really struck me. And that
00:38:38 ◼ ► you can probably see some of that philosophy in the writing and the staging and the structure of
00:38:45 ◼ ► what if immersive. It never really occurred to me the idea that, yeah, you usually are writing
00:38:51 ◼ ► dialogue and instead you've got a whole bunch of characters who can kind of lean in toward the
00:38:55 ◼ ► player, toward the viewer and say, "Oh yes." But they can't respond unless, because this is not one
00:39:01 ◼ ► of those things where they're going to put up like a grid of responses. You don't have a video game
00:39:08 ◼ ► assumptions about like, obviously the character is troubled in this moment. They've just seen
00:39:14 ◼ ► something difficult or they've just done something and they're reacting to that and you can kind of
00:39:18 ◼ ► react to that, but you can't ever have the character who's running the show say anything.
00:39:25 ◼ ► That is quite a challenge. That's amazing. Yeah, and I did like in some of the moments where
00:39:31 ◼ ► I knew there was something to be done, but I could kind of sit with it a little bit and a little bit
00:39:38 ◼ ► more would happen. Like I thought that that was really cool. Like, you know, like I know I'm
00:39:42 ◼ ► supposed to deal with this thing right now, you know, I'm supposed to stop this fight, but if I
00:39:46 ◼ ► let it play out a little bit, I can watch Carol Danvers flying around and like doing the whole
00:39:50 ◼ ► thing and like, you know, they're talking like it was, it's, you know, I can see how that is like a,
00:39:55 ◼ ► also a complicated part of video game writing, which is, as you say, like you, you're encouraging
00:40:03 ◼ ► someone to go do a thing, but they still have to go and do it. And you've kind of, I guess,
00:40:08 ◼ ► got to account for that a little bit that it's not going to just end. There has to be some element of,
00:40:17 ◼ ► Yeah. I mean, so it's, it's like you said, it's a very tricky thing to balance, right? Like you have
00:40:23 ◼ ► to give the player enough agency where they feel like they're not just like on rails completely on
00:40:28 ◼ ► a rollercoaster where if I black out, I'll wake up and this thing will be over. Like you want to,
00:40:32 ◼ ► you know, make them feel like they have to do something, but also you can't give them complete,
00:40:36 ◼ ► well, agency where they can do anything so that the narrative does progress. So yeah. So in that
00:40:41 ◼ ► moment there is like a little bit of looping and in other places, and there are a couple of places
00:40:45 ◼ ► where if the player doesn't do anything, we will kind of like nudge you forward so you don't get
00:40:53 ◼ ► CB; But I would say that's where the bounds of like immersive story and games are being drawn,
00:41:00 ◼ ► right? Like if this were a game, my expectation would be to give a lot more of this freedom into
00:41:06 ◼ ► account for a lot more of this type of thing, but we're not a game, right? We are trying to tell a
00:41:12 ◼ ► story of which you are the protagonist. I always envision the writer's job as being, I'm gonna,
00:41:21 ◼ ► obviously you're interacting, but you're doing your job and there's a whole team of other people
00:41:25 ◼ ► doing their jobs. Did you interact with like the art and design teams or was it much more like,
00:41:31 ◼ ► you know, we have some ideas, here's what we're doing, and then they came back and you didn't
00:41:37 ◼ ► have to worry about that part or was there a lot of give and take on a project like this with the
00:41:46 ◼ ► pieces that go into it. AC; Yeah, there was an ongoing iterative cycle. And so we would
00:41:52 ◼ ► come up with a pitch for a location and then that location would go off to the artist and the artist
00:41:57 ◼ ► would draw a rendering of it. We'd see and go, "Oh, based on this, we can incorporate that into
00:42:01 ◼ ► our writing process." Or, "Here's our take on a couple characters we'd like to use." And they're
00:42:05 ◼ ► like, "Oh, could Hela look like this?" Like, "Oh, maybe she should be younger." "Oh, could
00:42:09 ◼ ► Steve look like this?" "Oh, people, if they see this costume, they're gonna know exactly who this
00:42:14 ◼ ► is. We need to dial down how much Captain America is in." You know what I mean? So there was
00:42:22 ◼ ► I was praising that Cold War bunker location, and they actually said, "So did you know that it was
00:42:29 ◼ ► the Winter Soldier in that pod off to the right?" And I was like, "Well, yeah, but I mean, who else
00:42:34 ◼ ► is it going to be given the context of it?" But they were concerned, right? It was kind of
00:42:39 ◼ ► Easter eggy, but also kind of like, "We do want you to kind of be able to get it. And did you
00:42:44 ◼ ► notice?" And that's a hard... You don't want to be obvious. You don't want to put a spotlight on it
00:42:47 ◼ ► because then it's just super blatant. But at the same time, you want people to notice it. You don't
00:42:52 ◼ ► there's a video game console floating in space that's the last remnant of New York City at one
00:42:58 ◼ ► point that made me laugh. Just little touches, but I can appreciate that it's tricky to get the
00:43:03 ◼ ► balance right there. AC; Yeah. And making it even trickier is we didn't really know who the audience
00:43:09 ◼ ► for this was, right? Because it's people that are gonna buy this headset that doesn't exist yet,
00:43:14 ◼ ► it's coming out shortly. Will they have seen all the movies? Will they have seen none of the
00:43:18 ◼ ► movies? How much can... So you have to write a game that's an experience, excuse me, for a wide
00:43:26 ◼ ► number of people with completely different backgrounds as far as the source material goes,
00:43:30 ◼ ► which is, again, it's all very dicey but fun. This episode of Upgrade is brought to you by
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00:44:59 ◼ ► What did it feel like seeing and being in the story that you had made rather than just watching
00:45:05 ◼ ► it on a screen? It was a little like for almost like the first like third of it, I, you know,
00:45:14 ◼ ► I forgot that I wrote it. Yeah, there was like a good period of time for like the team, like,
00:45:23 ◼ ► you know, turning in the final draft so to speak and then them going off and making magic.
00:45:30 ◼ ► But there was like a chunk. So at first, the first time when the watcher steps out and is really
00:45:37 ◼ ► corporeal, and I'll say like, what an amazing job I did. Because these characters really do feel
00:45:45 ◼ ► like they're there. And it's so weird, right? Because they're cartoons. And so the idea that
00:45:53 ◼ ► these cartoons feel like they have presence and weight was just such an amazing magic trick. But
00:45:58 ◼ ► like the first third of it, I was just humming along and not even remembering that I wrote this.
00:46:04 ◼ ► And it wasn't until like certain turns of phrases that are very much like things me and Phil like to
00:46:09 ◼ ► do that I was like, "Oh, yeah, yeah, that's right. That's why we did this. This was our fault."
00:46:15 ◼ ► AC/BS I had a super weird onboarding to this experience because I'm currently in Portugal.
00:46:23 ◼ ► And I was going through hoops to get my vision pro here. So when it came out, I was watching all the
00:46:28 ◼ ► playthroughs on YouTube first. So I got to watch everyone else kind of play through it before I
00:46:32 ◼ ► got to play through it. And I was like, "Oh, okay, that's enjoy. It looks pretty good. That looks
00:46:36 ◼ ► pretty decent. Oh, that looks fun. That's great. That's cool." And so having written it and then
00:46:42 ◼ ► having watched it from afar, I thought I had a pretty good read on what the experience was like,
00:46:48 ◼ ► essentially. I was like, "All right, I'm a pro at this experience." And I got the headset,
00:46:53 ◼ ► installed it. And again, it felt like an entirely... The sea change shift in reading or watching
00:46:59 ◼ ► something 2D and being immersive is so fundamental that even with all that kind of exposure, it still
00:47:05 ◼ ► felt cool. I was like, "How can I think this is cool when I'm so intimately and familiar with it?
00:47:10 ◼ ► How can I still be wowed by it at all?" And that kind of really... Yeah, I was surprised.
00:47:16 ◼ ► - Well, I think you've quite adequately described the idea of it being immersive and that it is a
00:47:24 ◼ ► different medium and it truly requires experience. To see the footage of this game on a flat screen
00:47:35 ◼ ► does not tell the story of what it is like to be in it when the watcher is making eye contact with
00:47:43 ◼ ► you. - Yeah, while standing in your living room or wherever you are. - Yeah, one of the most
00:47:47 ◼ ► impressive things for me is the fact that the characters are looking at you. And that makes it
00:47:54 ◼ ► feel real because that is what people do. And just lots of little touches like that make it an
00:48:00 ◼ ► experience, which is it's hard to grasp unless you have been in it and it becomes part of your
00:48:10 ◼ ► memories. It's a very strange thing, but it's what makes this medium so exciting, I think.
00:48:16 ◼ ► - Absolutely. - I mean, this is obviously a pretty special and a unique experience to build this.
00:48:24 ◼ ► Seems far away from what you'd done before. Any interesting things you learned along the way
00:48:31 ◼ ► about this? Like, where you came out of it and were like, "Oh, I never really thought about
00:48:34 ◼ ► something like that." Because you would think that this would be kind of a changing experience for
00:48:39 ◼ ► both of you where you'd be like, "Wow, how did we get here?" And you have to solve some problems
00:48:44 ◼ ► you never expected. - A lot of our learnings we kind of ironed out in the initial stages.
00:48:49 ◼ ► Because again, our inclination is to have people say things and do things to tell the story.
00:48:54 ◼ ► And our producer, David Vachor, very much tried to drill this point into our heads early on in
00:49:01 ◼ ► the project, which is that when people put on a headset and there's a new world around them,
00:49:06 ◼ ► their attention and their appetite for dialogue and learning and information wittles to almost
00:49:15 ◼ ► nothing. Because you're just like a kid in the candy, you're just here. There's everything going
00:49:19 ◼ ► - You're sensory overload. And so, we had to kind of internalize a new kind of appreciation for the
00:49:28 ◼ ► ebb and flow of what a player is doing and when they're doing it and when they're receptive to
00:49:32 ◼ ► things and when you can say kind of very heavy plot or story-based information or when you need
00:49:37 ◼ ► to dial it back and say things that it's okay if a person didn't catch. Whereas when you're watching
00:49:43 ◼ ► a movie, you expect that the audience is going to process 95% of the dialogue because you're just
00:49:48 ◼ ► sitting there and you're paying attention, you're watching. In an immersive experience like this,
00:50:03 ◼ ► it's just a nice confirmation that story and emotionally connecting through characters and
00:50:12 ◼ ► theme work. I think most people, even people who are watching on a flat version, kind of really
00:50:20 ◼ ► grasp a lot of the philosophy of what we're really trying to get through with this piece.
00:50:28 ◼ ► And the feelings of it. And so it's rewarding to see that storytelling like that works,
00:50:35 ◼ ► even when you do switch mediums. Secondly, I would say the big learning is that what seems really
00:50:46 ◼ ► obvious to me because I'm writing it, isn't obvious to once people make it. And that's good
00:50:53 ◼ ► and bad. I was howling like a little child at some points about, "No, we're giving too many things
00:51:02 ◼ ► away. People are gonna know." And I was just wrong. People didn't know. And I was shown that,
00:51:12 ◼ ► like, "No, it's okay to put a little bit more of that stuff out there and ultimately ends up
00:51:17 ◼ ► more rewarding than to hold the mysteries of your story super close, super close to your chest."
00:51:23 ◼ ► - Speaking of the mysteries of the story, before we finish, before we wrap up, I want to talk about
00:51:27 ◼ ► the end. The snap moment, one of the coolest things I've ever done in a video game. If you
00:51:37 ◼ ► are a huge MCU fan, like I am, being able to enact that moment is, like, it gave me goosebumps.
00:51:46 ◼ ► It's like, "You're now doing this." And the weight of that moment, like, I know what that means.
00:52:12 ◼ ► - Yeah. - Yeah, the snaps. I mean, I'm so happy to hear everyone respond to it. I don't know that
00:52:20 ◼ ► I would do if people were like, "Eh." But I mean, for me, when this project came to us and we kind
00:52:32 ◼ ► of understood that hand tracking was going to be our main push for interactivity, I was like,
00:52:38 ◼ ► "Well, we got to do it." And it almost pushed the story to be about Infinity Stones because I was
00:52:45 ◼ ► like, "What other chance in my lifetime am I going to get to reenact the Infinity Snap without any
00:52:56 ◼ ► sort of distance?" It's not on a controller. It's not on a... It is literally, "You're doing it."
00:53:04 ◼ ► And I was like, "I may not get another chance in my lifetime to do this." So I really got to push
00:53:13 ◼ ► I didn't even know that the hardware could detect that. So that was also really fun too.
00:53:18 ◼ ► I didn't know. If it was a thing, if Hap was like, "Oh, and one of the ways that you do with
00:53:25 ◼ ► the UI is you snap your fingers," then I would have probably assumed that What If would have
00:53:31 ◼ ► you do that. But getting to that point and kind of, "You're just asked to do it." I was like,
00:53:37 ◼ ► I raised my hand and I'm like, "Oh my God, I get to do it." It was really just an incredible moment.
00:53:43 ◼ ► - It's magic, right? Yeah, because all throughout the process, I remember Ian was like, "We can do
00:53:48 ◼ ► this, right?" Because it has to work and it has to work really well. And Ian was like, "Yeah, yeah,
00:53:52 ◼ ► yeah, we got it, we got it, we got it." And I was like, "Okay," because it's got to be perfect.
00:53:59 ◼ ► - Any little bits in the game? Sorry, it's not a game. It's not a game. I've played this thing.
00:54:05 ◼ ► It is an interactive story. That's the thing about it. It is an interactive story and not a video
00:54:22 ◼ ► that kind of thing. It's becoming more and more of a style of game. But I understand the desire to
00:54:28 ◼ ► call this an interactive story just to expectations. It sets expectations well for people.
00:54:37 ◼ ► as many games I have played. But I get the idea of talking about it as a story. Sorry to interrupt.
00:54:44 ◼ ► - Right. No, no, that's fine. I was the one who said the wrong word. Anything that you got to get
00:54:51 ◼ ► in here that you just... I mean, again, I go back to the toy box. Anything in here that you're just
00:54:56 ◼ ► happy that you were able to slide in a little something here or there that was maybe a favorite
00:55:01 ◼ ► idea of yours, a favorite reference, something that you said, "Can we work this in?" I mean,
00:55:06 ◼ ► you mentioned Carol Danvers and the Nova Corps, which is something that I caught and laughed at
00:55:10 ◼ ► because I used to read Nova when I was a kid. And that character has not appeared in the films,
00:55:16 ◼ ► but the planet and the uniforms had. And so to have that remix where that's where Carol ends up.
00:55:23 ◼ ► But I was just wondering if there were any other... And again, the bubbling Winter Soldier pod was
00:55:27 ◼ ► hilarious. I wonder if there were any little bits in there that you're like, "I don't know if
00:55:31 ◼ ► anybody's going to notice this, but I was happy we got it in." - Oh, I don't know if they're all
00:55:36 ◼ ► super subtle like that because I'm not a very subtle person. But I mean... - Whatever makes you
00:55:44 ◼ ► happy, really. - I was really giddy to be able to fit in someone saying, "What if?" And that cold
00:55:51 ◼ ► open into the Marvel logos gives me chills every time I can watch it, I could do it. - Oh, being
00:55:57 ◼ ► inside the Marvel logo. - It just sounds so great. - So good. - So great. - Brad Winterbaum came to
00:56:05 ◼ ► us about the Star Fox inclusion. And originally I was a little scared about it, but ultimately
00:56:11 ◼ ► I was really happy that we got to play with that character. And so it's not an Easter egg,
00:56:25 ◼ ► - What about you, Phil? - There was just a moment, I was really happy with it because I thought this
00:56:31 ◼ ► was going to get cut. There's a moment where you finally meet the Scarlet Witch and she has
00:56:36 ◼ ► dismissed everyone. She sent everyone off to various places. She's like, "Sealing you all
00:56:42 ◼ ► on the... " And it's like Oprah. It's like, "You're on the Soul Stone. You're on the Soul Stone. You're
00:56:46 ◼ ► on the Soul Stone." And she gets to you, "You're on the Soul Stone." And it's a super low moment.
00:56:51 ◼ ► Like you've essentially lost and you're trapped forever. And I love that Vision, who has been
00:56:56 ◼ ► just trapped in here, who is trying not to die essentially, his wife is wreaking havoc in the
00:57:16 ◼ ► unexpected for Vision. I was like, "They're going to take this away from Vision." But no,
00:57:19 ◼ ► it got in. So I was happy with that one. How about you? What was your... This is kind of...
00:57:26 ◼ ► Because you have such a great purview into both movies and games. I saw a tweet recently that
00:57:31 ◼ ► was so interesting and I feel stupid for never having noticed it. Or someone said that a lot of
00:57:36 ◼ ► the great kind of tech shifts have created a lot of the great IPs. And I forget who tweeted it,
00:57:41 ◼ ► but it was something like 4Color Printing Press gave us Marvel Comics and Sync and Sound gave us
00:57:46 ◼ ► Disney and CG gave us Star Wars... No, Blue Screen Compositing gave us Star Wars, etc., etc.
00:57:59 ◼ ► immersive storytelling opens up the door for a new kind of IP." And you guys both love tech and
00:58:08 ◼ ► story. Do you have thoughts about that? Is there maybe a type of story or a thing that even just
00:58:14 ◼ ► from this small taste of it that sparks your own curiosity, like, "Oh, where else could this go?"
00:58:19 ◼ ► That maybe we couldn't have done in other mediums and other platforms or without this technology,
00:58:24 ◼ ► if that makes sense. PW If we look at what you did here with what if as this is the beginning of
00:58:32 ◼ ► what this kind of storytelling can be, while... And Jason touched on it earlier, the complexity
00:58:40 ◼ ► of branching narrative is always a huge thing. But I can imagine immersive branching narrative
00:58:49 ◼ ► to be much more emotionally effective than in regular video games. Because when you are in
00:59:00 ◼ ► these immersive environments, you feel more active in your participation than when there is a
00:59:07 ◼ ► controller that is the medium for you to participate. And I really wonder what the kind
00:59:15 ◼ ► of morality stories that can be told in these environments, I think could be much more emotionally
00:59:22 ◼ ► effective than the typical types of video games that we have today. And so I can see something
00:59:30 ◼ ► happening there. But of course, it's a big, huge thing to deal with. But I think people are more
00:59:36 ◼ ► likely to be emotionally effective of the decisions that they make if they actually feel like they're
00:59:40 ◼ ► in the world with the people that they're making them with. AC I'm gonna interrupt real quickly,
00:59:44 ◼ ► because we talked about that very specifically and used The Last of Us as a reference point
00:59:49 ◼ ► when we briefly entertained the idea of doing a branching narrative upfront. It's very difficult,
00:59:56 ◼ ► and I'm curious to see how other people balance this themselves. It's difficult to tell a story
01:00:01 ◼ ► with an emotional arc like The Last of Us if you don't know what experiences the player is gonna
01:00:06 ◼ ► have along the way. So if they have free latitude to do whatever and say whatever, they might not
01:00:11 ◼ ► get all of the key pivotal moments that'll make that final decision so emotionally impactful.
01:00:16 ◼ ► So there's an art to giving enough freedom to feel free, but narrowing down freedom enough
01:00:23 ◼ ► so that the story can have all the emotional beats necessary to hit that emotional climax,
01:00:35 ◼ ► narratives, I've always been kind of interested in it, so it's kind of fun to see it get to this
01:00:40 ◼ ► scale. Like oh my god, it's not just, well it's like going from a book to a movie or a video game.
01:00:46 ◼ ► It's just it's a similar concept on a completely different level. I wonder, Mike said, the emotional
01:00:53 ◼ ► connections when you're in an immersive environment. It's not even just the characters.
01:00:59 ◼ ► I keep coming back, this is probably a dumb idea, but I keep coming back to the idea of,
01:01:02 ◼ ► do you remember everybody, there was this fad like 15 years ago, the alternative reality game idea?
01:01:08 ◼ ► Like we're doing a movie, but also you scan a barcode and go to a website. You can download
01:01:13 ◼ ► the thing that you can scan and then it takes you here and all of that. And I wonder in this,
01:01:19 ◼ ► whether it's AR or VR, if there is a way to do narrative that is part of your immersive world.
01:01:30 ◼ ► So the idea that if you're working in an augmented reality environment, there may be aspects of it
01:01:36 ◼ ► that aren't really there, but that if you interact with them, they will lead to other things being
01:01:41 ◼ ► generated later on, almost on an extended kind of narrative. And then the Vision Pro environments
01:01:47 ◼ ► are so spectacular that I also think about that. Like what if things happen in those environments
01:01:52 ◼ ► or something like those environments where you could be in it, but you could get your work done,
01:01:57 ◼ ► but somebody might come walk up to you on the beach or something might wash ashore on that beach
01:02:02 ◼ ► that leads to another kind of thing. Whether it's a super heavy narrative or whether it's just a
01:02:07 ◼ ► little bit of delight that unlocks something somewhere else. Because to me, the difference
01:02:17 ◼ ► is that immersion, that you're somewhere else. And so anything that can take advantage of that,
01:02:24 ◼ ► whether it's an interactive narrative or even the very limited supply of those immersive videos that
01:02:29 ◼ ► Apple has put out so far, you can see it's not like anything else. So what could you do with
01:02:36 ◼ ► that? And I'm not quite sure what, but that was the first thing that came to my mind was what if
01:02:40 ◼ ► they were a little bit more, even lightly more interactive or a narrative. A friend of mine back
01:02:45 ◼ ► in the 90s did a short story that was done by email. So you basically got, you signed up for it
01:02:51 ◼ ► and then you got a series of emails that were supposedly between two people talking to each
01:03:01 ◼ ► experience. The time between the emails was part of the story. And I think about just weird ways of
01:03:08 ◼ ► doing story that you could do in an immersive or an AR environment that you can't do in the real
01:03:15 ◼ ► world, or at least without scanning a barcode that you got on a Mountain Dew can or something.
01:03:20 ◼ ► AC/BS The environments, I don't know if you saw in the latest Vision 2 docs, they kind of released
01:03:27 ◼ ► kind of the guidelines for making your own environments. So there definitely, you can see
01:03:32 ◼ ► that Apple's sort of paving the way for that so that there will be third-party environment kind
01:03:36 ◼ ► of things. I think that the kinds of things that can happen in AR and mixed reality can be like,
01:03:46 ◼ ► it doesn't mean anything to you or someone steps up to you and says hi in a game, it means nothing.
01:03:54 ◼ ► that is a transformative experience for you. It'd be horrifying if you didn't know what's going to
01:03:59 ◼ ► come. But it's very fundamental, basic things get opened up. So yeah, I think that there's almost an
01:04:08 ◼ ► extent to which traditional games have been so hell-bent on sort of becoming photorealistic and
01:04:12 ◼ ► how many frames per second and what's the realest shooting game ever, that now we can sort of maybe
01:04:17 ◼ ► step back to very basic interactions. I think you referred to the Zork and the Sierra online games
01:04:25 ◼ ► earlier. Just walking around a cave and finding a thing can be so much more engaging because of
01:04:43 ◼ ► CB; Yeah, I mean, you got to scan it to get your secret code for that for some movie that's in and
01:04:49 ◼ ► out of theaters for a week and that's got a thing in the credits. That's how you send in a self-addressed
01:04:55 ◼ ► stamped envelope to this address. That's how we had to do it back in the day. It was really slow.
01:04:59 ◼ ► Well, Phil and David, thank you so much for coming on and talking to us about this. I know
01:05:05 ◼ ► like the Mike especially was, I mean, we both really enjoyed it and Mike was like pumped
01:05:12 ◼ ► about this entire, that snap really got him is what I'm saying. So I'm so glad that we got to
01:05:17 ◼ ► talk to you about this very interesting thing that's like outside of your wheelhouse and it's
01:05:22 ◼ ► not like something that we've ever really seen and it was a lot of fun and I hope there's more
01:05:32 ◼ ► Thank you for talking about it with us. JS; Thank you so much for having us. A real honor,
01:05:37 ◼ ► again, surreal to hear you guys and feel able to talk back. Thank you so much for letting us be
01:05:43 ◼ ► a guest on your podcast. CB; Yeah, thank you. Such a pleasure. I'm so glad that it landed.
01:05:48 ◼ ► JS; This episode of Upgrade is brought to you by Delete.me. Have you ever wondered how much of your
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01:07:57 ◼ ► It is time for some Ask Upgrade Questions. So this one was promised and foretold earlier on
01:08:05 ◼ ► in the episode. Zach wrote in and asked "What podcasts should I listen to in your absence?"
01:08:12 ◼ ► So we're not going to be here for a week what should people listen to instead? I think a great
01:08:17 ◼ ► starting point is to go to the website that Zach maintains for us actually which is upgradeys.com
01:08:23 ◼ ► because there is a favorite podcast category so you can go through that list and maybe pick up
01:08:27 ◼ ► something from a previous favorite podcast winner from the upgradeys right that's a good starting
01:08:33 ◼ ► point I think and obviously just the blanket starting points of Relay.fm and the incomparable.com
01:08:40 ◼ ► go pick up a show from those but I wanted to make a couple of I want to make a selection of
01:08:51 ◼ ► upgradey award-winning The Town by Matt Bellamy from Puck. It's just a great entertainment focused
01:08:59 ◼ ► podcast but I just think it's just a very good entertaining enjoyable show. I think Bellamy is
01:09:05 ◼ ► a fantastic interviewer and he just does a great job. There is a video game podcast that I picked
01:09:10 ◼ ► up recently called Into the Aether. This is a show that essentially it is a podcast about video games
01:09:18 ◼ ► but it's not necessarily following the day-to-day happenings of all the latest games and all of the
01:09:24 ◼ ► news and drama around gaming. The episodes that I've actually been listening to they do these
01:09:28 ◼ ► incredibly long episodes where at the start of each season they'll play basically the vast
01:09:35 ◼ ► majority of a back catalog from a retro system and we'll talk about their favorites. They've done
01:09:40 ◼ ► like Gameboy Advance, Nintendo DS and Sega Dreamcast for example. They also do really really
01:09:46 ◼ ► long episodes about Game of the Year. They actually just put out an episode to celebrate a milestone
01:09:52 ◼ ► a couple of days ago Jason. It is Games of the Decade like the last 10 years. It's 15 hours long.
01:09:59 ◼ ► That's our thing which I'm excited to listen to but like I appreciate the commitment that the
01:10:05 ◼ ► Aether hosts have to making podcasts because that is an incredible achievement. I've recently picked
01:10:12 ◼ ► up The Rest is Politics because of everything going on in this country right now which I'm
01:10:19 ◼ ► happy about. I just want to be a little bit more informed about what's going on so I wanted to get
01:10:25 ◼ ► some like election takes and I'd heard of this show partly because of something you're going to
01:10:30 ◼ ► mention in a bit like but I was aware of this show and they did a couple of emergency pods about the
01:10:36 ◼ ► election so I was like yep let me start with those and I really like it. So it's Alistair Campbell and
01:10:42 ◼ ► Rory Stewart who have both been in government and one is typically Labour one is typically
01:10:50 ◼ ► Conservative which I also appreciate because they like talk things out. Yeah it's an interesting
01:10:57 ◼ ► show. I'll also recommend just in general the Kind of Funny podcasts that I love especially Kind of
01:11:04 ◼ ► Funny Games Daily and Kind of Funny Games Cast and Federico, John and Brendan. Brendan is one of the
01:11:11 ◼ ► hosts from Into the Aether. The show Next Portable Console is the new gaming show too. So lots of
01:11:16 ◼ ► gaming content from me. All right yes people should look at the favorites obviously Flop House
01:11:23 ◼ ► still listening still one of my favorites. I mentioned Origin of the Story a while ago.
01:11:29 ◼ ► That's a very interesting podcast British podcast Ian Dunt and Dorian Linsky talking sort of taken
01:11:36 ◼ ► apart kind of terms and where they come from. In terms like lots of terms used in politics and what
01:11:43 ◼ ► they actually mean. You mentioned the rest is politics that is a goal hanger podcast. They have
01:11:49 ◼ ► a bunch of the rest is podcasts but it all started with the rest is history which I mentioned I
01:11:53 ◼ ► think on a previous show and that's the one that I have gotten to. It's a great window into what
01:11:59 ◼ ► our members go through which is that I got into that show and I loved it so much that I started
01:12:03 ◼ ► to be I became a member and then they're like okay well now you get bonus episodes and you get the
01:12:08 ◼ ► discord community and all that stuff and I get to see it from the other side which is really
01:12:12 ◼ ► actually kind of fascinating but I also really enjoy that show. It is to historians a it's
01:12:18 ◼ ► actually interesting because I think their their political views are a little divergent and their
01:12:29 ◼ ► A really great history podcast. They've done so many episodes now that just pick just find a topic
01:12:34 ◼ ► you're interested in. I got into it I said this on when I mentioned them the last time I got into it
01:12:38 ◼ ► because somebody sent me a link to British historians doing a series of podcasts about the
01:12:42 ◼ ► American Revolution and that was just mind-blowing but they're actually just a lot of fun. They're
01:12:47 ◼ ► doing a series about the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand and while I've known
01:13:00 ◼ ► in Sarajevo and it kicked off World War I. I knew no and the Gavilo Princip I think the assassin's
01:13:09 ◼ ► name I think I knew at one point no other details and so that's a great example. The rest is history
01:13:16 ◼ ► is just like six part episode about that which they actually recorded in Sarajevo which is even
01:13:20 ◼ ► it's they don't usually do that but that was kind of a hilarious extra so anyway love it.
01:13:25 ◼ ► That's fun. And the Incomparable Game Show. I'm just going to mention a specific Incomparable
01:13:29 ◼ ► Podcast because people don't know necessarily and it's every other week and it's just various games
01:13:35 ◼ ► that we play that are fun including feuding families and a thing that I just brought back
01:13:46 ◼ ► there's just it's a lot of fun it is the maybe the most ongoing kind of silly fun podcast that
01:13:51 ◼ ► I'm involved with and so people don't know about it they should check it out. What was the name of
01:13:56 ◼ ► the first show that you mentioned? I think like the origin story. Yeah I remember yeah which I
01:14:01 ◼ ► mentioned a couple years ago I think it was one of my upgradey also mentions and it's just Ian
01:14:08 ◼ ► Dunst is a very fun political writer from England that and then he went and did that story. It's not
01:14:15 ◼ ► a goal hanger podcast strangely it's some other British podcast network. I just remember last time
01:14:20 ◼ ► it's the same issue that I've had this time is that it's an incredibly hard show to search for
01:14:30 ◼ ► shows called origin story. Podmasters is the name of their podcast network apparently pod masters.
01:14:39 ◼ ► Podmasters. Nathan writes in and asks do you think the conversation around Apple Intelligence
01:14:45 ◼ ► would have been different if Apple used the old strategy of simply labeling the features as smart
01:14:51 ◼ ► or machine learning by labeling them all as Apple Intelligence it seems to have grouped the criticism
01:14:57 ◼ ► around software design ethics legal reasons use cases etc all under one umbrella. What do you think?
01:15:04 ◼ ► So for me my like issues are twofold image generation and the way in which they acquired
01:15:11 ◼ ► the data set for their LLM which I think they did in an underhanded way and they're trying to
01:15:14 ◼ ► pretend like it doesn't just brush enough. For me these aren't branding things like branding the
01:15:20 ◼ ► branding of Apple Intelligence is not the problem and actually I quite like the brand of Apple
01:15:24 ◼ ► Intelligence I think it's clever like branding these things and collecting them all together
01:15:30 ◼ ► it's not that's not the issue I don't think I think the issue that some people are having is
01:15:34 ◼ ► like the specific things that they've done and how they've done them similar like some people just
01:15:40 ◼ ► like for them like the thing they can't that they draw a line of anything text related right like
01:15:45 ◼ ► even just rewriting or for other people it is the open ai stuff is the issue like I don't think that
01:15:53 ◼ ► the collecting of this altogether makes a difference and I don't think the way they brand
01:15:59 ◼ ► it makes a difference people have particular issues with particular features that's my take
01:16:03 ◼ ► yeah I think I think that's true also I think it's the point the point of collecting it is
01:16:08 ◼ ► Apple Intelligence is to say yes we're doing this because there are some people who felt like
01:16:12 ◼ ► Apple was behind and that Apple products are going to become inferior because they weren't
01:16:17 ◼ ► doing this sort of thing and they wanted to send the signal that they are and in a different way
01:16:22 ◼ ► etc etc but that they are and I think that they they probably did need to the way the world has
01:16:29 ◼ ► gone look sometimes a term that you prefer is not used and a term you don't prefer is used instead
01:16:37 ◼ ► yeah and at some point you've got to stop fighting like didn't Apple for years insist that everything
01:16:42 ◼ ► was a notebook and and now they've given up they call them laptops yeah I mean at some point you
01:16:49 ◼ ► just got to give up and this is a case where Apple Apple fought against calling this ai because it's
01:16:53 ◼ ► inaccurate and they use machine learning which is accurate yeah and then the world said it's ai and
01:17:00 ◼ ► and at some point Apple was like oh geez we're not only are we behind on some of the ai but we've
01:17:05 ◼ ► hidden all the ways that we're not behind because they're using a different term so let's just call
01:17:10 ◼ ► it ai so I think that they they kind of needed to do that whether we like it or not I think they
01:17:15 ◼ ► kind of needed to do that but I agree with you Mike this is the the criticisms are not you know
01:17:21 ◼ ► would not really have been hidden because they they announced that they've got a model running
01:17:26 ◼ ► in the background that's been trained on the internet and like that that is the thing that
01:17:30 ◼ ► is the issue for a lot of people have you seen I can't remember the exact phrase now but there's
01:17:37 ◼ ► now like another name for ai which is like the step between now and the like uh agi I think it's
01:17:48 ◼ ► called super ai or something like that artificial general intelligence right which is the the like
01:17:53 ◼ ► that's well that's the problem right is they've had to invent a new term to for real ai because
01:17:58 ◼ ► ai has been co-opted by this stuff that we've got now and and originally like real ai was it's a
01:18:05 ◼ ► thing that thinks and you know that and then there are these you know crackpots who are like oh it's
01:18:10 ◼ ► thinking now and it's it's not that's not how it works but um you know that that is part of the
01:18:16 ◼ ► naming but again you don't get to control it like I didn't love I didn't love that Steve Jobs was
01:18:22 ◼ ► all about the apps but you know they're apps there's nothing you can do about it like programs
01:18:27 ◼ ► software applications nope they're apps now and at some point you just got to give in because that's
01:18:32 ◼ ► the word that people use and you got to use it remember when Leo Laporte wanted everything to
01:18:35 ◼ ► be a netcast kind of a podcast because she loves people you trust he gave it up because it's it it's
01:18:42 ◼ ► too bad like you can use a word that nobody else uses but eventually you just seem weird and nobody
01:18:47 ◼ ► understands you and and in the interest of clear communication you just have to use the word that
01:18:51 ◼ ► yeah so everybody knows what you're doing yeah like I remember on this show like I put you know
01:18:56 ◼ ► I made my point which is it's not AI it's just machine learning like I got my I got my point out
01:19:02 ◼ ► but I was not going to hold on to it forever but like I do like to mention it every now and then
01:19:06 ◼ ► we're like it is actually just machine learning it's all it's doing which is incredibly impressive
01:19:11 ◼ ► technology and powerful but it is not artificially intelligent like that's not what is happening but
01:19:24 ◼ ► red a thing somebody was commenting on the fact that the magic sparkles emoji has come to just
01:19:28 ◼ ► mean AI yeah and it's like I don't know how that happened but like everybody just puts little
01:19:41 ◼ ► but at some point you just have to say okay I guess that's what we're doing now because
01:19:45 ◼ ► you can you can refuse it but it's not how it works right you can't you can fight against it
01:19:50 ◼ ► but the truth is that at some point as a especially as a communicator you just have to accept that this
01:19:55 ◼ ► is how people communicate and and if you want to communicate you use the tools that people use
01:20:00 ◼ ► so David Eumel who works at MKBHD he's on he actually made a 30-minute youtube video about
01:20:08 ◼ ► how the sparkles emoji became the AI emoji I'll put a link in the show notes if people want to
01:20:14 ◼ ► watch that so if you want to know where that came from and like why that started to happen he does
01:20:18 ◼ ► a deep dive into like how that began Kevin writes in and says what are the chances apple could open
01:20:24 ◼ ► up app vision pro and let it be more like a mac with gatekeeper and an app store but able to load
01:20:30 ◼ ► any software that the user wishes I for one could justify buying it if it offered the openness and
01:20:43 ◼ ► um your answer which I can see in our document yeah and my answer are the same which is no chance
01:20:50 ◼ ► no I don't think apple will ever unless legally forced to by entities ever ever do another
01:20:59 ◼ ► platform like the mac right apple's model how many platforms has apple launched since the iphone many
01:21:06 ◼ ► are all of them using the iphone model yes all of them the mac has been retrofitted to use a
01:21:12 ◼ ► modified version of the iphone model but also accepting the fact that the horse has left the
01:21:17 ◼ ► barn and it's always going to be that way so I would say in terms of like vision pro being a mac
01:21:23 ◼ ► and being open I'm going to say absolutely not zero percent however I have one little caveat
01:21:31 ◼ ► here one little quirk one little aside I'm going to make which is I don't think depending on how
01:21:36 ◼ ► the product goes I don't think it's impossible that at some point vision pro I actually think
01:21:44 ◼ ► it's the most likely of any of apple's products could run mac os in a virtual machine I think
01:21:54 ◼ ► that's possible right like again it could be happen on the ipad it could happen on vision pro
01:22:00 ◼ ► but I did like the vision pro is so good with a mac right like they've got that that pass-through
01:22:06 ◼ ► mode and it's going to get you know widescreen this fall at some point like there are really
01:22:12 ◼ ► interesting applications of using a mac and a vision pro together and I can see a scenario
01:22:17 ◼ ► where that goes on to be so powerful that they decide you know what in a future version of the
01:22:22 ◼ ► hardware they've got enough ram they've got enough processor they could just let you run mac os in an
01:22:29 ◼ ► app in a window in a virtual machine but that's the only scenario I can foresee where there would
01:22:36 ◼ ► be anything like what kevin is asking about and even then it wouldn't be vision pro it would be
01:22:41 ◼ ► mac os running inside of vision pro yep it's funny you know saying about vision pro we're recording
01:22:46 ◼ ► this episode on friday the 12th which is the day that vision pro is available in the uk and it has
01:22:52 ◼ ► been really funny to me to see people in the british media having the same rollout plan that
01:22:59 ◼ ► american media had like yeah i'm seeing pictures of people taken by apple with their hands in the
01:23:05 ◼ ► air you know like sure it's just like funny to me of like we're just gonna do that again but like
01:23:11 ◼ ► now and it's and it's two two years after we we saw it more than two years after we saw it right
01:23:17 ◼ ► or no it's a year it's what 13 months 13 months more than a year sorry it seems so long ago now
01:23:22 ◼ ► but yeah like remember because it shipped this year remember it shipped five months ago or
01:23:28 ◼ ► whatever in the us but 15 months ago we all tried it well and now here it is and people are having
01:23:35 ◼ ► probably very similar experiences now so it's just funny they're having the beginning experience
01:23:39 ◼ ► again i did going back to this question at hand like about you know the mac i believe that there
01:23:46 ◼ ► are many people high up inside of apple that wish wish they could make the mac app store the only
01:23:52 ◼ ► place to get apps on the mac like absolutely it is the outlier through age it is not a strategy
01:23:58 ◼ ► they attempted to make the mac app store a thing and like the mac app store is a thing for what it
01:24:04 ◼ ► does and it's i think it's good that it's there because it is an easy way for developers who want
01:24:10 ◼ ► that to get their apps out like i know lots of developers that want the apple model because it
01:24:15 ◼ ► is easy for them and that makes sense but the idea that there would ever be another platform like the
01:24:21 ◼ ► mac no because they don't want that they really don't want that unless as you say they are forced
01:24:26 ◼ ► to do so right so they've got this kind of ring fence thing where you know they set the default
01:24:32 ◼ ► and and and that's how they do it with the mac and it's actually pretty smart like the mac you
01:24:37 ◼ ► can set the default to mac app store only or you can set the mac to which i think is the default to
01:24:42 ◼ ► it's mac app store and notarized and they've changed i got to check the latest beta but they've
01:24:48 ◼ ► changed sort of how it works when you try to launch a non-notarized app in mac os now where you
01:24:55 ◼ ► at least the last time i checked it like through the first time you do it it throws a security
01:24:59 ◼ ► warning and you have to go to settings and say okay and then if you open it again and then it
01:25:03 ◼ ► puts up a warning and you have to say okay and then it asks for your password which i think is
01:25:08 ◼ ► like a bridge too far here because it's not authenticating anything at that point but but
01:25:14 ◼ ► i've also at wwc and i will i will scream bloody murder if they ever try to do this i don't think
01:25:19 ◼ ► they ever will but at wwc in san jose i think the last year they had it in san jose maybe maybe yeah
01:25:26 ◼ ► 1918 something like that an apple person stood up on stage at wwc and said the mac will you will
01:25:35 ◼ ► never be prevented from running unsigned software on your mac flat out and i believe them i believe
01:25:45 ◼ ► that apple is committed to erecting as many walls as they can and the reason they're doing it is
01:25:52 ◼ ► because if you look at any story about mac malware the way mac malware happens generally is that they
01:26:00 ◼ ► socially engineer a user to turn off those protections and click through those warning dialogues
01:26:05 ◼ ► they're like here's how you have to install it you got to click okay here and then it's going to warn
01:26:09 ◼ ► you and then you say okay and then your great awesome app is installed and then it's actually
01:26:13 ◼ ► spyware or malware of some sort right so apple's trying to create ways to get between the bad stuff
01:26:21 ◼ ► and the user but you know then i'm trying to launch an app that isn't signed and you know i a
01:26:29 ◼ ► couple of which i use and it's yelling at me and making it hard but like that's so so they're going
01:26:34 ◼ ► to keep doing that but that's because they don't they don't like it they they want the default to be
01:26:40 ◼ ► mac app store or mac app star plus notarization they yeah the idea that they would ever allow
01:26:46 ◼ ► something more broad even notarization without being legally forced to like they are in the eu
01:26:52 ◼ ► it's just it will it will never happen they don't want to do it but they may be forced right
01:26:59 ◼ ► and even then the notarization thing like again as we talked about last week unless they're legally
01:27:04 ◼ ► forced to drop notarization or change their notarization policies they will they will use
01:27:12 ◼ ► it as a way to control it as well if you would like to send in a question for us to answer in
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