Upgrade

00:00:00 ◼   ► (upbeat music)

00:00:02 ◼   ► From Relay FM, this is Upgrade,

00:00:12 ◼   ► episode 518 for June 24th, 2024.

00:00:16 ◼   ► This episode is brought to you by Squarespace,

00:00:19 ◼   ► Vitally, KRCS and Ladder.

00:00:22 ◼   ► My name is Mike Hurley and I'm joined

00:00:24 ◼   ► by my fun summer co-host, Jason Snell.

00:00:27 ◼   ► - Hanging loose over here, Mike, woo!

00:00:30 ◼   ► Happy, happy episode 518.

00:00:33 ◼   ► - Get ready to ride the ripcarl of this Snell Talk,

00:00:37 ◼   ► which comes in from Bromwyn and is summer themed.

00:00:40 ◼   ► - Thank goodness.

00:00:41 ◼   ► - Jason, when you enter a body of water

00:00:43 ◼   ► that you suspect may be chilly,

00:00:46 ◼   ► are you a toe tester or are you a jump straight inner?

00:00:50 ◼   ► - Oh, toe tester, for sure.

00:00:51 ◼   ► - Yeah, toe testing.

00:00:52 ◼   ► - Toe tester, and in fact, then if it proves

00:00:55 ◼   ► to be not incredibly warm, I am a gradualer.

00:01:00 ◼   ► I am a gradualer.

00:01:02 ◼   ► I prefer to just very slowly psych myself up

00:01:05 ◼   ► as I get deeper and deeper into the water

00:01:08 ◼   ► until finally I reach a point of no return

00:01:11 ◼   ► and I give up and I completely submerge.

00:01:13 ◼   ► That's just how I do it.

00:01:15 ◼   ► - You're quite different to me, let me tell you.

00:01:18 ◼   ► - Interesting you're a jump straight inner?

00:01:19 ◼   ► - No, I'm actually something in the middle.

00:01:21 ◼   ► I confidently move, right?

00:01:24 ◼   ► So if I'm going to a pool and I get into the steps,

00:01:28 ◼   ► I just go, I just walk through.

00:01:30 ◼   ► - You don't jump in, but you stride at a constant rate.

00:01:36 ◼   ► - I just don't stop, right?

00:01:37 ◼   ► I'm walking down the steps and then as soon

00:01:39 ◼   ► as my feet touch the ground, I'm going under.

00:01:42 ◼   ► That's me, straight under, do a lap and I'm good to go.

00:01:46 ◼   ► Or straight under, this is harder to do in the ocean.

00:01:51 ◼   ► But I will do the same in the ocean to the degree

00:01:55 ◼   ► that I can of just confidently walking through.

00:01:57 ◼   ► That to me is like if I focus on the confident movement,

00:02:02 ◼   ► I don't get so freaked out by the cold.

00:02:04 ◼   ► - Even on the beach in Hawaii, I will get my feet in

00:02:07 ◼   ► and then I will, if I'm going in, I'll just keep going in

00:02:09 ◼   ► and get up to the ankles and the waves will come over you

00:02:12 ◼   ► and that helps 'cause it climateizes you.

00:02:14 ◼   ► - Yep.

00:02:15 ◼   ► - And eventually you're like, all right, that's fine.

00:02:18 ◼   ► And you go all the way down.

00:02:20 ◼   ► And that's a key too, you gotta go all the way down.

00:02:23 ◼   ► Even if it's not depth of your height,

00:02:28 ◼   ► at some point you're like, I just have to get in

00:02:30 ◼   ► because then once you get in, then your skin

00:02:32 ◼   ► is gonna match the water temperature instead,

00:02:36 ◼   ► which is better, so yeah.

00:02:38 ◼   ► - Thank you to Bronwyn for that question.

00:02:40 ◼   ► If you would like to send us in a summer themed snow talk,

00:02:44 ◼   ► it could be a snow talk of any kind,

00:02:45 ◼   ► but right now we are particularly looking

00:02:47 ◼   ► for summer themed questions.

00:02:48 ◼   ► Go to upgradefeedback.com and you can send yours in.

00:02:53 ◼   ► - You know what we do?

00:02:54 ◼   ► We start the show and then we stride right in

00:02:58 ◼   ► to snow talk every time, walking confidently,

00:03:00 ◼   ► like Mike Hurley does into a body of water.

00:03:03 ◼   ► - I was trying to think of a way to bring that in,

00:03:07 ◼   ► but I couldn't do it and you've done it,

00:03:09 ◼   ► so I appreciate that.

00:03:10 ◼   ► - Thank you, it's the service I provide.

00:03:12 ◼   ► - It's a good service.

00:03:13 ◼   ► Let's do some follow up, Jason Snow.

00:03:17 ◼   ► - Sounds great.

00:03:18 ◼   ► - A friend of the show, David Smith,

00:03:20 ◼   ► has a good suggestion, I thought,

00:03:22 ◼   ► that he posted on Mastodon for how Apple could have

00:03:26 ◼   ► a light mode tinting with the home screen.

00:03:28 ◼   ► So at the moment, if you wanna do any

00:03:30 ◼   ► of the new color tinting, you are doing this

00:03:33 ◼   ► with dark icons, dark background icons,

00:03:36 ◼   ► which I don't think should be the only way to do things.

00:03:40 ◼   ► And I think that Underscore did a really good job of,

00:03:44 ◼   ► basically he just inverted a home screen that he made

00:03:47 ◼   ► and everything's light and purple

00:03:48 ◼   ► rather than dark and green,

00:03:50 ◼   ► and I think it looks really nice.

00:03:52 ◼   ► And I think Underscore did a,

00:03:55 ◼   ► I really like this post, so he says,

00:03:58 ◼   ► he talks about this is what I think,

00:04:01 ◼   ► and I think I have my own opinions of this.

00:04:04 ◼   ► He follows it up by saying,

00:04:05 ◼   ► "Of the top five themes in Widget Smith,

00:04:07 ◼   ► "four of them have light backgrounds

00:04:09 ◼   ► "and two are completely white."

00:04:10 ◼   ► And what I like about this post is that,

00:04:12 ◼   ► and then David also follows this up for feedback.

00:04:15 ◼   ► He couldn't have done this in a better way,

00:04:17 ◼   ► in my opinion, of like,

00:04:18 ◼   ► "Oh, by the way, I have millions of users

00:04:22 ◼   ► "and they make these choices."

00:04:24 ◼   ► So I thought this is a good way of putting his case across.

00:04:28 ◼   ► - Yeah, it is, they look good,

00:04:31 ◼   ► and then he's got the numbers to back it up.

00:04:33 ◼   ► It makes me wonder who decides these things at Apple,

00:04:38 ◼   ► and what do they use to decide them, right?

00:04:43 ◼   ► Because Apple is famously like,

00:04:45 ◼   ► "Oh, no, no, no, no, we're not gonna use focus groups.

00:04:47 ◼   ► "We're not gonna," which isn't true, they do research,

00:04:49 ◼   ► but like, "Oh no, but we're gonna just make

00:04:51 ◼   ► "the right decision 'cause the users

00:04:52 ◼   ► "don't always know what they want."

00:04:54 ◼   ► But in this case, David's very popular app

00:04:59 ◼   ► that really kicked this off and was referred to

00:05:01 ◼   ► by executives, right, of the whole customization thing,

00:05:05 ◼   ► the whole making your home screen your own trend

00:05:10 ◼   ► that four years later, they're like,

00:05:12 ◼   ► "Oh yeah, people want that, we should do that."

00:05:15 ◼   ► He's learned, and his stats are, I would say, pretty solid

00:05:20 ◼   ► that the people who want to make an effort

00:05:23 ◼   ► to customize their home screens prefer actually

00:05:27 ◼   ► to customize them in a light mode and not a dark mode.

00:05:30 ◼   ► And I mean, everything Apple showed is in dark mode,

00:05:33 ◼   ► and that's what's on the betas,

00:05:34 ◼   ► which leads me to believe that they think that that's it,

00:05:37 ◼   ► and the job is done, and I just, I wonder,

00:05:41 ◼   ► what are they basing that on?

00:05:42 ◼   ► Why did they choose that?

00:05:44 ◼   ► Was there just a designer somewhere,

00:05:45 ◼   ► or a couple of designers who were like,

00:05:47 ◼   ► "Eh, I kinda like a better dark,"

00:05:48 ◼   ► and they're like, "Okay, we'll ship that."

00:05:50 ◼   ► Or did somebody actually do some research?

00:05:52 ◼   ► Because based on David's statistics,

00:05:55 ◼   ► it would suggest they've made the wrong decision here,

00:05:57 ◼   ► or at least they haven't made a complete decision,

00:06:00 ◼   ► which is to have two options, a light base and a dark base.

00:06:03 ◼   ► So bless David, he did the mock-up,

00:06:07 ◼   ► he shows the different compare and contrasts,

00:06:10 ◼   ► he files a feedback, and he's really trying

00:06:13 ◼   ► to prevent Apple from making a mistake.

00:06:17 ◼   ► So it's up to Apple now to listen to that,

00:06:21 ◼   ► but it troubles me that David's numbers could be so clear,

00:06:26 ◼   ► and that Apple would just do this other thing,

00:06:28 ◼   ► because it makes me think that they're not,

00:06:32 ◼   ► it's not like if the users want it, give it to them.

00:06:35 ◼   ► - I don't believe Apple has the data that David has, right?

00:06:38 ◼   ► So I think David has--

00:06:40 ◼   ► - That may be true.

00:06:40 ◼   ► - Right, because this kind of thing has not existed before,

00:06:44 ◼   ► like they have no way of basing it,

00:06:46 ◼   ► and I expect it was a design decision

00:06:49 ◼   ► that they've made so far,

00:06:50 ◼   ► where they're like, "We think this looks better."

00:06:53 ◼   ► And that is fine, these things are all an element of taste,

00:06:57 ◼   ► but at a certain point, data is important,

00:07:00 ◼   ► and he has that data.

00:07:02 ◼   ► Like for all we know, Underscore's taste are dark taste,

00:07:07 ◼   ► and he was like, "Oh, I would like dark mode,"

00:07:08 ◼   ► but then he was surprised with what his users did.

00:07:10 ◼   ► I mean, frankly, WidgetSmith in and of itself is a surprise.

00:07:15 ◼   ► Like what this app was originally made to do

00:07:18 ◼   ► is not what ended up becoming the thing

00:07:21 ◼   ► that people wanted it for.

00:07:23 ◼   ► Right, like Underscore was thinking,

00:07:24 ◼   ► "How can I make widgets have the most utility

00:07:28 ◼   ► that they possibly can?"

00:07:29 ◼   ► But it turned out people wanted visual customization.

00:07:33 ◼   ► And so these things can be a surprise,

00:07:35 ◼   ► and so maybe like at Apple, they're like,

00:07:38 ◼   ► "Oh, we think dark mode's the way to go here,"

00:07:41 ◼   ► but actually people would like the choice.

00:07:43 ◼   ► And I honestly cannot understand why they didn't do both.

00:07:48 ◼   ► And I also think, for me, I can't see a scenario

00:07:52 ◼   ► why they couldn't change that before release.

00:07:55 ◼   ► This doesn't feel like something

00:07:57 ◼   ► that is massively complicated.

00:07:59 ◼   ► For me, I feel like if you have built the system

00:08:02 ◼   ► to do it in dark mode, how hard could it be really

00:08:07 ◼   ► to also do that in a light mode in the next three months?

00:08:11 ◼   ► I mean, to me, that doesn't seem

00:08:13 ◼   ► like an insurmountable challenge.

00:08:16 ◼   ► - I agree.

00:08:17 ◼   ► It seems like a fairly understandable, limited kind

00:08:21 ◼   ► of concept of there's a light mode and a dark mode option.

00:08:25 ◼   ► And I also just like David's mock-up better.

00:08:30 ◼   ► I mean, I like it better. - Me too, me too.

00:08:31 ◼   ► - I think it looks nice.

00:08:32 ◼   ► I think that there's a reason why people tend

00:08:35 ◼   ► for a light mode and not dark mode on their devices.

00:08:37 ◼   ► - I use my phone in dark mode all the time,

00:08:42 ◼   ► but I want dark mode in app content.

00:08:45 ◼   ► I don't want my home screen to be in dark mode.

00:08:47 ◼   ► That's not something that I am looking for.

00:08:50 ◼   ► - Right, you just want the background.

00:08:52 ◼   ► I had this the other day.

00:08:53 ◼   ► I realized, I had a realization

00:08:55 ◼   ► when I was doing MacBreak Weekly, which is a video show,

00:08:58 ◼   ► that every time I do it, every time I open up

00:09:01 ◼   ► a browser window to read a story, a giant,

00:09:04 ◼   ► I got a 27 inch monitor a few inches away from my face,

00:09:07 ◼   ► and you open up a giant webpage in light mode on the Mac,

00:09:11 ◼   ► and it's like blasting a new light on my face.

00:09:14 ◼   ► And my face lights up on the video.

00:09:16 ◼   ► It's very distracting.

00:09:18 ◼   ► And I realized, oh, you know what?

00:09:19 ◼   ► I need to put my Mac in dark mode for MacBreak Weekly

00:09:23 ◼   ► because I don't actually like dark mode on the Mac,

00:09:25 ◼   ► but I absolutely should do that

00:09:28 ◼   ► because I don't want that effect.

00:09:29 ◼   ► And I feel like that is why,

00:09:31 ◼   ► that is a key reason why you use dark mode in any scenario,

00:09:34 ◼   ► is you don't want the big blast of the white background.

00:09:38 ◼   ► And so I agree with you that there are places

00:09:43 ◼   ► where dark mode for content makes sense,

00:09:46 ◼   ► but on the home screen,

00:09:47 ◼   ► I don't necessarily want it to be that way.

00:09:49 ◼   ► - You know, I'd forgotten if I was using light mode

00:09:52 ◼   ► or dark mode on my Mac,

00:09:54 ◼   ► because I don't, like I'm just looking at it now.

00:09:57 ◼   ► And now I'm looking at it again, I can see that I do,

00:10:00 ◼   ► but I just changed the system to light mode.

00:10:02 ◼   ► And I felt like my eyes were about to explode.

00:10:04 ◼   ► So it turns out I am using my Mac on dark mode.

00:10:08 ◼   ► - And that's fine.

00:10:10 ◼   ► I had to install a Safari plugin too,

00:10:12 ◼   ► because Google doesn't have a dark mode for Google docs.

00:10:15 ◼   ► - No, I wish that they did.

00:10:17 ◼   ► They do on the iPhone.

00:10:19 ◼   ► - Yeah, so I installed Noir on the Mac.

00:10:23 ◼   ► And now when I'm in dark mode for MacBreak Weekly,

00:10:27 ◼   ► my, you know, all the show documents

00:10:28 ◼   ► and everything else also are dark mode and that's better.

00:10:33 ◼   ► It's better.

00:10:34 ◼   ► - It's weird that you can't do it for,

00:10:37 ◼   ► like on the web version,

00:10:39 ◼   ► 'cause they have the technology.

00:10:41 ◼   ► - I know.

00:10:43 ◼   ► - I wanted to talk about an Apple film for a moment.

00:10:48 ◼   ► So Apple, they're making a film about Formula One,

00:10:52 ◼   ► which is obviously of interest to me.

00:10:54 ◼   ► It's starring Brad Pitt

00:10:56 ◼   ► and it's directed by Joseph Kosinski,

00:10:58 ◼   ► who directed Top Gun Maverick.

00:11:01 ◼   ► And Apple have announced a release date

00:11:03 ◼   ► for this movie in theaters starting June 25th, 2025.

00:11:06 ◼   ► It's being distributed by Warner Brothers

00:11:08 ◼   ► as part of Apple's like continued deals that they're doing

00:11:11 ◼   ► with companies to do film distribution.

00:11:14 ◼   ► The budget of this movie is said to be currently

00:11:17 ◼   ► over $250 million, which is a lot of money.

00:11:21 ◼   ► And I think one of the reasons that this movie is costing,

00:11:24 ◼   ► what it is costing is the way in which they are shooting it

00:11:27 ◼   ► in that they are driving real Formula Two cars

00:11:32 ◼   ► that are mocked up to look like Formula One cars

00:11:35 ◼   ► during Formula One race weekends.

00:11:37 ◼   ► They've done it a couple of times last year,

00:11:39 ◼   ► they're doing it a couple of times this year

00:11:41 ◼   ► with the Formula One drivers that currently are driving.

00:11:44 ◼   ► So, and actually Lewis Hamilton is a,

00:11:47 ◼   ► I think a producer in the movie.

00:11:49 ◼   ► So I think like this is part of why you can imagine

00:11:51 ◼   ► the budget is getting higher and higher on this

00:11:53 ◼   ► because they are doing something quite ambitious

00:11:56 ◼   ► in that they are filming these cars

00:11:59 ◼   ► with high quality cameras while real cars are driving

00:12:02 ◼   ► during Formula One race weekends.

00:12:04 ◼   ► You can see how cost will balloon

00:12:06 ◼   ► if that's what you wanna do.

00:12:08 ◼   ► So this made me think what I wanted to talk to you about is

00:12:12 ◼   ► what is the aim here at this point?

00:12:18 ◼   ► A $250 million movie, if it was being released

00:12:23 ◼   ► under regular circumstances, you would need to make

00:12:28 ◼   ► five, six, $700 million for this movie

00:12:31 ◼   ► to be considered successful

00:12:33 ◼   ► in the typical Hollywood environment, right?

00:12:36 ◼   ► That's what I have gone from listening to the town.

00:12:40 ◼   ► Like that's the kind of money you'd need to make

00:12:41 ◼   ► in the box office.

00:12:43 ◼   ► Are Apple actually going to try and make that money

00:12:46 ◼   ► in the box office?

00:12:47 ◼   ► Do they want to distribute this movie in such a way

00:12:51 ◼   ► that it could make half a billion dollars

00:12:53 ◼   ► before they would put it on Apple TV+?

00:12:55 ◼   ► Because if they don't wanna do that,

00:12:56 ◼   ► why are they spending all this money

00:12:58 ◼   ► on the movies that they're making?

00:12:59 ◼   ► Like what is the aim here?

00:13:01 ◼   ► So I just wanted to know what you thought about that.

00:13:03 ◼   ► - Yeah, it is, it's a question of our time.

00:13:06 ◼   ► I would say Apple wants to be,

00:13:10 ◼   ► I mean, just look at that Apple TV+ thing

00:13:12 ◼   ► that they roll at the top of WWDC, right?

00:13:15 ◼   ► Apple wants to be in business

00:13:19 ◼   ► and have good relationships with key people in Hollywood.

00:13:23 ◼   ► They wanna be, they want to win awards,

00:13:28 ◼   ► they want to release movies and TV shows with big stars.

00:13:33 ◼   ► They want to establish that the sort of like Apple's brand

00:13:37 ◼   ► is an entertainment brand as well.

00:13:40 ◼   ► And that look at these, all of these well-known people

00:13:42 ◼   ► and they're using their money to do that.

00:13:44 ◼   ► I think financially the goal is to continue

00:13:49 ◼   ► to burnish Apple TV+'s reputation as well,

00:13:53 ◼   ► because their biggest challenge

00:13:54 ◼   ► is that it's a very small service

00:13:56 ◼   ► and people don't feel that it's essential.

00:13:58 ◼   ► I think it's the same reason why they do some sports stuff

00:14:00 ◼   ► is they're just trying to get people to try it.

00:14:03 ◼   ► Because as we know, the more they go here,

00:14:06 ◼   ► their catalog has actually gotten pretty good

00:14:09 ◼   ► of just originals.

00:14:09 ◼   ► If you're somebody who's never done Apple TV+ now,

00:14:12 ◼   ► you're gonna go, "Oh, well, I always heard good things

00:14:15 ◼   ► about Ted Lasso or For All Mankind

00:14:17 ◼   ► or The Morning Show or Severance."

00:14:20 ◼   ► Right, like you can watch a lot of stuff in Apple TV+.

00:14:23 ◼   ► Plus they've got those movies there,

00:14:24 ◼   ► which drive, I'm sure they drive

00:14:28 ◼   ► a certain amount of engagement, right?

00:14:30 ◼   ► Killers of the Flower Moon

00:14:31 ◼   ► probably drove a certain number of people to be like,

00:14:33 ◼   ► "Okay, I'll get Apple TV+ for that

00:14:36 ◼   ► and then I'll look at the catalog."

00:14:37 ◼   ► And so that's one of the things that they're trying to do

00:14:40 ◼   ► is just be, so some of it is prestige

00:14:43 ◼   ► and some of it is just getting people to consider Apple

00:14:47 ◼   ► either now or in the future as a service

00:14:49 ◼   ► that they wanna subscribe to.

00:14:51 ◼   ► It's a weird game, right?

00:14:52 ◼   ► But that seems to be the game they're playing

00:14:54 ◼   ► as they're going for prestige

00:14:56 ◼   ► and to make Apple TV+ seem like

00:14:59 ◼   ► a more appealing destination for people,

00:15:02 ◼   ► which they can afford to do, right?

00:15:03 ◼   ► They can afford to lose money.

00:15:04 ◼   ► I mean, not a lot of money in the long run.

00:15:07 ◼   ► They don't want to do that because it is still money.

00:15:09 ◼   ► But I think they still view it sort of like strategically

00:15:13 ◼   ► and giving a kind of halo to the whole Apple brand

00:15:16 ◼   ► and the Apple entertainment brand.

00:15:18 ◼   ► I would say that if Apple was a company

00:15:19 ◼   ► that was in difficult straits

00:15:22 ◼   ► and there was a lot of pressure on the executives

00:15:24 ◼   ► to increase profits and cut things that aren't working,

00:15:29 ◼   ► this would get cut almost immediately.

00:15:33 ◼   ► But it's not, it's not.

00:15:36 ◼   ► It's seen as an empire building play here.

00:15:39 ◼   ► - I don't think they should be in the movie making business.

00:15:41 ◼   ► I think they should be in the TV business.

00:15:44 ◼   ► I don't think that these movies

00:15:49 ◼   ► will drive enough long-term engagement.

00:15:53 ◼   ► Like the reason I say that is like with a streaming service,

00:15:57 ◼   ► you need to provide people with a value

00:15:59 ◼   ► that continues to get them to want to stay

00:16:02 ◼   ► as part of the service.

00:16:04 ◼   ► And a TV show that you roll out weekly over three months

00:16:09 ◼   ► does that.

00:16:10 ◼   ► A movie is one day, is like something you watch one day.

00:16:14 ◼   ► - One day, yeah.

00:16:15 ◼   ► - And so you would need lots of movies,

00:16:18 ◼   ► but you can't keep making movies

00:16:21 ◼   ► that cost two, $300 million.

00:16:24 ◼   ► You can't keep doing that

00:16:28 ◼   ► if you're not making money in the box office

00:16:30 ◼   ► is how I look at this anyway.

00:16:32 ◼   ► - This is the argument

00:16:33 ◼   ► about a lot of streamers making movies, right?

00:16:35 ◼   ► Which is, is it wise in the long run

00:16:39 ◼   ► for streamers to bankroll big budget movies?

00:16:42 ◼   ► 'Cause I think it personally,

00:16:45 ◼   ► it might be better if they bankrolled smaller budget movies,

00:16:49 ◼   ► not like super small indies.

00:16:51 ◼   ► But like mid budget movies and had a lot of them.

00:16:55 ◼   ► But they also wanna win Oscars.

00:16:57 ◼   ► - Well, this is what Netflix does.

00:16:59 ◼   ► - Well, Netflix has had a bunch of different strategies

00:17:01 ◼   ► and they've had, they just had recently had a change

00:17:03 ◼   ► in who's in charge of it, right?

00:17:05 ◼   ► And I think Netflix wants to do fewer expensive movies,

00:17:10 ◼   ► Zack Snyder moon movies and things like that, right?

00:17:14 ◼   ► I think they wanna do more.

00:17:16 ◼   ► They wanna kind of spread it out a little bit more,

00:17:17 ◼   ► but what Netflix would tell you is,

00:17:19 ◼   ► if they can do a bunch of hallmark-esque romantic comedy

00:17:24 ◼   ► kind of things and have 10 of those or 15 of those

00:17:27 ◼   ► or 20 of those that cost 10 million or whatever,

00:17:30 ◼   ► it's totally worth it.

00:17:31 ◼   ► And then you have some mid budget sci-fi movies.

00:17:34 ◼   ► And I feel like there is a way to do this

00:17:36 ◼   ► where back in the old days,

00:17:38 ◼   ► they had the concept of the movie of the week,

00:17:40 ◼   ► which was like a TV movie,

00:17:41 ◼   ► TV movie as a concept,

00:17:43 ◼   ► a movie that was never made to be anything but shown

00:17:46 ◼   ► for two hours on a TV network.

00:17:48 ◼   ► And those things had TV budgets.

00:17:51 ◼   ► They were not super ambitious,

00:17:53 ◼   ► but it was a real thing.

00:17:56 ◼   ► And I think that there's room for that.

00:17:57 ◼   ► However, I think that Apple is more concerned

00:17:59 ◼   ► about getting award nominations

00:18:02 ◼   ► and about working with stars and famous directors

00:18:06 ◼   ► and things like that than it is about playing the game

00:18:10 ◼   ► that Netflix is playing.

00:18:11 ◼   ► And I think it's fair to say,

00:18:13 ◼   ► should you really think that way?

00:18:15 ◼   ► I think that's a fair question.

00:18:17 ◼   ► I wouldn't be surprised if they stop doing big movie deals

00:18:22 ◼   ► and start doing maybe some indie movie deals,

00:18:24 ◼   ► but also more just focus on the TV stuff.

00:18:28 ◼   ► I will say one of the places that they're experimenting

00:18:30 ◼   ► that I think is interesting is licensing movies

00:18:32 ◼   ► for a month or two on TV+.

00:18:35 ◼   ► And it appears kind of connecting them

00:18:38 ◼   ► either thematically or demographically

00:18:40 ◼   ► to the movies that they're releasing.

00:18:42 ◼   ► So you end up in this scenario where I would bet you

00:18:45 ◼   ► when Apple's F1 film comes on TV+.

00:18:48 ◼   ► There will be a curated selection of things

00:18:51 ◼   ► that probably scares mail,

00:18:52 ◼   ► might be a little more international.

00:18:54 ◼   ► And if there's anything about racing,

00:18:56 ◼   ► there are a lot of driving movies.

00:19:00 ◼   ► Ford versus Ferrari or Days of Thunder,

00:19:01 ◼   ► that they'll put all of those on there as well.

00:19:03 ◼   ► And the idea there is, you come for the F1 film,

00:19:06 ◼   ► but oh, look, Apple's got a bunch of these movies

00:19:08 ◼   ► that I can stay and watch.

00:19:09 ◼   ► Even if they're not there forever,

00:19:11 ◼   ► nothing on streaming is forever,

00:19:12 ◼   ► but they're there for a month or two,

00:19:14 ◼   ► they can create that kind of experience

00:19:16 ◼   ► that makes you wanna hang on

00:19:17 ◼   ► even though they don't have a huge catalog.

00:19:20 ◼   ► They're just experimenting and they're trying stuff,

00:19:22 ◼   ► but I do think there's an element to it.

00:19:23 ◼   ► And I've seen some reports from people like Matt Bellamy

00:19:26 ◼   ► about this, where there's an element to it

00:19:30 ◼   ► of just Apple likes using its money to have stars around.

00:19:35 ◼   ► - And I think they're doing a great job of that

00:19:38 ◼   ► with the TV shows, right?

00:19:41 ◼   ► Their TV shows are packed full of A-list movie actors.

00:19:45 ◼   ► - Yeah, doing TV.

00:19:47 ◼   ► Gary Oldman doing a TV show, right?

00:19:49 ◼   ► Harrison Ford doing a TV show.

00:19:51 ◼   ► - People in, but I think, so this movie here,

00:19:55 ◼   ► this very particular movie, which doesn't have a name yet,

00:19:57 ◼   ► which is interesting,

00:19:58 ◼   ► it has the potential of making a lot of money in the cinema

00:20:05 ◼   ► provided that they commit, right?

00:20:07 ◼   ► Because what this movie is gonna do

00:20:10 ◼   ► is provide people with a Top Gun Maverick-like experience,

00:20:13 ◼   ► where Top Gun Maverick, I'm so disappointed

00:20:15 ◼   ► I never saw that in cinema, I saw it at home,

00:20:18 ◼   ► because I imagine seeing that movie on an IMAX screen

00:20:21 ◼   ► would be absolutely exhilarating

00:20:24 ◼   ► because they actually put cameras on fighter jets.

00:20:28 ◼   ► And this time they're putting cameras

00:20:30 ◼   ► on essentially the fastest race cars, right?

00:20:34 ◼   ► And so if you get really good footage,

00:20:37 ◼   ► which I'm convinced they are,

00:20:38 ◼   ► this movie is gonna be incredible to watch in a theater,

00:20:42 ◼   ► but they have to actually commit to that.

00:20:45 ◼   ► And I'm not sure that they will,

00:20:46 ◼   ► even though they have, if you know what I mean.

00:20:49 ◼   ► Is this gonna be a full premium format IMAX screen release?

00:20:54 ◼   ► Like, I don't know, but it'd be interesting to see.

00:20:57 ◼   ► - I mean, they're, I think, experimenting with this too,

00:20:59 ◼   ► but it may be, right?

00:21:00 ◼   ► They may have brought Warner Brothers on

00:21:02 ◼   ► as the distribution partner,

00:21:03 ◼   ► thinking this movie costs so much money,

00:21:05 ◼   ► we really need to try to give it a proper theatrical release.

00:21:10 ◼   ► And it does make sense,

00:21:12 ◼   ► I know I talked about this a lot with Julia on downstream,

00:21:15 ◼   ► the idea that releasing a movie in theaters

00:21:19 ◼   ► that you have the streaming rights to is actually helpful,

00:21:22 ◼   ► because most of your potential audience

00:21:24 ◼   ► won't get out to the theaters to see it.

00:21:26 ◼   ► And if they do, you make money.

00:21:29 ◼   ► But if they don't, what you've done is,

00:21:31 ◼   ► the launching of a movie in theaters is marketing.

00:21:33 ◼   ► It creates awareness that that movie exists,

00:21:36 ◼   ► so that when it then, 45 days later

00:21:39 ◼   ► or whatever appears on your platform,

00:21:41 ◼   ► everybody knows about that movie and said,

00:21:42 ◼   ► "Oh yeah, I wanted to see that movie."

00:21:45 ◼   ► So there is a strategy there,

00:21:46 ◼   ► but when it gets to be a very expensive movie,

00:21:49 ◼   ► you're trying to cut your costs,

00:21:52 ◼   ► but I agree with you,

00:21:53 ◼   ► this seems like one of these peculiar,

00:21:55 ◼   ► does Apple wanna be in the business

00:21:57 ◼   ► of making $250 million movies?

00:21:58 ◼   ► Does it really?

00:22:00 ◼   ► Or should it be making $50 million movies?

00:22:03 ◼   ► You could get five, you got a five pack

00:22:05 ◼   ► of $50 million movies for the cost of this one.

00:22:08 ◼   ► But it wouldn't have Brad Pitt in it.

00:22:09 ◼   ► - I want this movie to be successful,

00:22:13 ◼   ► but Apple needs to commit to that strategy,

00:22:16 ◼   ► and it'll be interesting to see if they will.

00:22:18 ◼   ► Speaking of committing and strategies,

00:22:21 ◼   ► Apple have abandoned their Apple Pay Later service.

00:22:25 ◼   ► This is where you could,

00:22:26 ◼   ► as part of an Apple Pay checkout, pay in payments.

00:22:30 ◼   ► You could take a payment, split it into chunks,

00:22:33 ◼   ► and pay it over time.

00:22:34 ◼   ► This was announced at WWDC last year, I think,

00:22:38 ◼   ► but it's available for around a year.

00:22:41 ◼   ► Providing a statement to 9to5Mac,

00:22:43 ◼   ► Apple said, "Starting later this year,

00:22:44 ◼   ► "users across the globe will be able

00:22:46 ◼   ► "to access installment loans offered

00:22:48 ◼   ► "through credit and debit cards,

00:22:49 ◼   ► "as well as lenders, when checking out of Apple Pay.

00:22:52 ◼   ► "With the introduction of this new global

00:22:54 ◼   ► "installment offering, we will no longer

00:22:57 ◼   ► "offer Apple Pay Later in the US."

00:22:59 ◼   ► And I feel like this is them trying to save face

00:23:03 ◼   ► a little bit, because they're offering these features

00:23:05 ◼   ► to third parties, but they are select third parties.

00:23:09 ◼   ► Where if they were, with how they did it,

00:23:11 ◼   ► and how they could have rolled it out themselves,

00:23:13 ◼   ► you could do this no matter who you banked with.

00:23:16 ◼   ► But like, say for example, they mention in the UK,

00:23:18 ◼   ► there are two banks that you can do it with,

00:23:19 ◼   ► and if you're not a customer of those banks,

00:23:21 ◼   ► you can't use this feature.

00:23:23 ◼   ► So, interesting.

00:23:25 ◼   ► - I wrote a piece for Macworld this week,

00:23:28 ◼   ► thinking about all the places where, you know,

00:23:30 ◼   ► Apple has this colossus that's,

00:23:32 ◼   ► that it's a huge company, $3 trillion valuation,

00:23:36 ◼   ► and it acts like it can do anything at once, but it can't.

00:23:41 ◼   ► It can't, and I think it's interesting to see the areas

00:23:43 ◼   ► where it thinks that it can and it can't,

00:23:46 ◼   ► because trying new things is not bad, right?

00:23:49 ◼   ► Trying to enter new areas is not bad.

00:23:51 ◼   ► Apple did it with the iPhone and the iPod, right?

00:23:54 ◼   ► And they were successful with it.

00:23:57 ◼   ► But in some of these areas, Apple sort of said,

00:23:58 ◼   ► "Well, I think there's a little crack here."

00:24:00 ◼   ► Like they did Apple Pay, and I was like,

00:24:02 ◼   ► "The Apple Pay worked."

00:24:03 ◼   ► And they were able to crack the market in a way,

00:24:05 ◼   ► and some of it was timing, but some of it was just

00:24:07 ◼   ► the way that they built it,

00:24:09 ◼   ► and the enthusiasm of their user base.

00:24:12 ◼   ► They cracked it in the US in a way that contactless

00:24:15 ◼   ► had not been done before, and they took advantage

00:24:18 ◼   ► of a moment in time, and they really made a difference.

00:24:22 ◼   ► But since then, they're like, "Ah, yes,

00:24:25 ◼   ► financial is a place where we could go.

00:24:27 ◼   ► Let's do some more financial products."

00:24:29 ◼   ► And if you take a step back, other than Apple Pay,

00:24:32 ◼   ► nothing has worked.

00:24:34 ◼   ► So it's interesting, right?

00:24:37 ◼   ► Like the Apple Card has been out there for years now.

00:24:41 ◼   ► Goldman Sachs is their partner,

00:24:42 ◼   ► 'cause they had to have a partner.

00:24:44 ◼   ► Goldman Sachs wants out, they're trying to get out of it.

00:24:46 ◼   ► Apple apparently, it wants to get them out of it,

00:24:49 ◼   ► and it's trying to find a partner,

00:24:50 ◼   ► but no partner has been announced,

00:24:51 ◼   ► because Apple Card is maybe problematic.

00:24:55 ◼   ► Also, I'll point out Apple Card, US only.

00:24:59 ◼   ► Apple Cash, US only.

00:25:02 ◼   ► So even when Apple has tried to be ambitious with financial,

00:25:07 ◼   ► they can't even get it out of their home market.

00:25:10 ◼   ► So it's an interesting, and you could say,

00:25:13 ◼   ► I mean, in my column, I talk about like,

00:25:15 ◼   ► they have a carplay and they're like,

00:25:16 ◼   ► "Aha, well, maybe we'll build a car

00:25:18 ◼   ► and we'll do this next generation carplay."

00:25:21 ◼   ► And the carmakers are like, "No, thank you, no."

00:25:23 ◼   ► Where, oh yeah, maybe automotive is not actually

00:25:27 ◼   ► as wide open to you as you thought it was.

00:25:30 ◼   ► And then, you know, the big one is obviously regulation

00:25:33 ◼   ► and governments and things like that,

00:25:34 ◼   ► where they're like, "Oh, we can totally do this."

00:25:36 ◼   ► And it hasn't gotten there.

00:25:39 ◼   ► Dan Morin recommended in that category

00:25:43 ◼   ► the whole digital driver's license thing,

00:25:45 ◼   ► which is also just sort of like,

00:25:47 ◼   ► they thought they could do an Apple Pay with that

00:25:50 ◼   ► and it kind of hasn't happened in the US.

00:25:53 ◼   ► But the financial one is like a really great example

00:25:56 ◼   ► where like they set up their own bank

00:25:59 ◼   ► to do short-term loans.

00:26:01 ◼   ► It's like, that's weird.

00:26:02 ◼   ► And they had to do it themselves.

00:26:04 ◼   ► And Mark Gurman wrote the stories a couple of years ago

00:26:06 ◼   ► about their big financial vision.

00:26:08 ◼   ► And they were gonna set up a whole division of the company

00:26:12 ◼   ► that does financial services and all that.

00:26:14 ◼   ► And I know that the Apple Pay later

00:26:17 ◼   ► is a very specific product

00:26:19 ◼   ► and it might not necessarily be representative

00:26:20 ◼   ► of everything else.

00:26:21 ◼   ► But if you look at everything else that they've done

00:26:24 ◼   ► in this area, other than Apple Pay itself,

00:26:27 ◼   ► none of them, I would say, have been successful.

00:26:30 ◼   ► Because like, first off, none of them are outside the US

00:26:34 ◼   ► and none of them have really grown or changed over time.

00:26:38 ◼   ► It's all very limited.

00:26:40 ◼   ► So I think maybe this is just one of those areas

00:26:42 ◼   ► where Apple's, what is it?

00:26:45 ◼   ► Apple's reach exceeded its grasp.

00:26:46 ◼   ► Like it's trying, but it can't get there with this stuff.

00:26:49 ◼   ► And maybe Apple, turns out, maybe having lots of money

00:26:54 ◼   ► does not make you a bank.

00:26:55 ◼   ► (laughs)

00:26:56 ◼   ► It's not the same.

00:26:58 ◼   ► They're not the same.

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00:29:23 ◼   ► Room around uptime, Jason Snow.

00:29:26 ◼   ► - Yeehaw!

00:29:28 ◼   ► - So I wanted to give an abridged outline,

00:29:32 ◼   ► or basically talk about an outline that Mark Gurman

00:29:35 ◼   ► has given for his expected timelines

00:29:38 ◼   ► based on information he's received,

00:29:39 ◼   ► and I think also a little bit of gut feeling

00:29:42 ◼   ► about when Apple intelligence features are likely to ship.

00:29:46 ◼   ► So from his power on newsletter,

00:29:49 ◼   ► in the initial release, most likely in the fall,

00:29:52 ◼   ► we'll see notification, prioritizing, and recapping,

00:29:56 ◼   ► summaries and transcriptions,

00:29:59 ◼   ► Genmoji and image playgrounds,

00:30:01 ◼   ► some of the writing tools to rewrite your text,

00:30:04 ◼   ► the new Siri UI, type to Siri,

00:30:06 ◼   ► and better understanding of speech.

00:30:08 ◼   ► These are the things that are expected to be

00:30:11 ◼   ► probably in 18 and 18.1, something like that.

00:30:15 ◼   ► But the expectation is that these features would make it.

00:30:18 ◼   ► Although, they may not make it in the bay as apparently

00:30:21 ◼   ► until at least some of these things,

00:30:22 ◼   ► until very late in the day.

00:30:24 ◼   ► - Sure, uh-huh, that's a sign.

00:30:26 ◼   ► - Some of these things are targeted to be ready in August.

00:30:31 ◼   ► Which is very light.

00:30:33 ◼   ► Then later in 2024 would be the chat GPT integration.

00:30:37 ◼   ► It's expected that this may not be ready for 18.0.

00:30:41 ◼   ► And then in 2025, we would see features like

00:30:44 ◼   ► Siri being able to find content on your device.

00:30:47 ◼   ► This was the, when is my mom's flight demo?

00:30:50 ◼   ► That is this, like finding content on your device.

00:30:53 ◼   ► Semantic indexing, so this is the understanding of you

00:30:56 ◼   ► based on the data you have on your phone.

00:30:58 ◼   ► The intense based control of apps and actions.

00:31:01 ◼   ► So being able to ask your phone to do something

00:31:05 ◼   ► and it would understand what that is

00:31:06 ◼   ► and function it based on an application and its features.

00:31:09 ◼   ► And also on-screen awareness.

00:31:12 ◼   ► And I'll really quote from Mark Gurman

00:31:14 ◼   ► about what kind of defining this part.

00:31:17 ◼   ► He says, for example, if you're texting with a friend

00:31:19 ◼   ► about LeBron James, you'll be able to ask

00:31:22 ◼   ► how many points did he score last night

00:31:24 ◼   ► and you'd get an answer.

00:31:25 ◼   ► So this is the timeline.

00:31:28 ◼   ► But like that 2025 could be who knows when,

00:31:31 ◼   ► but so that's, you know, I'm happy to hear,

00:31:35 ◼   ► 'cause I was starting to feel like a lot of this stuff

00:31:38 ◼   ► wouldn't ship at all this year,

00:31:40 ◼   ► but the features that he's put in the initial release,

00:31:43 ◼   ► I think there's enough there,

00:31:45 ◼   ► which would be interesting to play with, right?

00:31:47 ◼   ► And that people will be excited about.

00:31:49 ◼   ► And it will give more time for developers

00:31:52 ◼   ► and for Apple to convince more developers,

00:31:54 ◼   ► which has been an interesting theme

00:31:56 ◼   ► that I've been hearing people talk about over the last week,

00:31:58 ◼   ► especially Ben Thompson,

00:32:00 ◼   ► to actually try and get them to come on board

00:32:03 ◼   ► with Apple intelligence,

00:32:04 ◼   ► which could actually end up being

00:32:05 ◼   ► a bit of an Achilles heel for them.

00:32:07 ◼   ► So interesting timeline.

00:32:09 ◼   ► - Obviously they're just doing this as fast as they can.

00:32:12 ◼   ► And there's gonna be the stuff that they feel like

00:32:16 ◼   ► is in better shape or that is more constrained

00:32:18 ◼   ► that they can do.

00:32:19 ◼   ► And then there's gonna be the stuff that's messier.

00:32:21 ◼   ► I also would not be surprised

00:32:23 ◼   ► if some of this stuff slips, right?

00:32:24 ◼   ► I wouldn't be surprised if they say,

00:32:25 ◼   ► "Yeah, Image Playgrounds turns out,

00:32:28 ◼   ► "and we can't ship it, so it'll be later," or whatever.

00:32:32 ◼   ► But at least there are gonna be things, right?

00:32:35 ◼   ► And I think we just have to accept

00:32:37 ◼   ► that this stuff is gonna roll out

00:32:38 ◼   ► over the course of the entire year,

00:32:41 ◼   ► the entire release cycle, right?

00:32:42 ◼   ► From September through next June, basically,

00:32:46 ◼   ► that they're gonna keep adding things.

00:32:48 ◼   ► And then I imagine next June, they'll make an announcement

00:32:52 ◼   ► and those features will take a year to roll out as well.

00:32:55 ◼   ► And that's just how it's gonna be from now on

00:32:58 ◼   ► is that this stuff is gonna roll out over time

00:33:00 ◼   ► because they don't have...

00:33:02 ◼   ► I think they know that they can't just sit on it for a year

00:33:05 ◼   ► and do nothing, right?

00:33:06 ◼   ► I think that they've gotta be ambitious

00:33:08 ◼   ► and then keep shipping throughout the year.

00:33:10 ◼   ► But at least there will be some stuff there,

00:33:12 ◼   ► even if it's not in the betas,

00:33:13 ◼   ► which is, for those of us who write about this stuff,

00:33:16 ◼   ► the most frustrating thing is not having time to spend

00:33:21 ◼   ► with major features of the operating system.

00:33:23 ◼   ► But I think that's just how it's gonna have to be this year

00:33:27 ◼   ► is that it's all gonna be coming...

00:33:30 ◼   ► It's gonna be a real challenge, right?

00:33:31 ◼   ► Because you could review iOS for the fall,

00:33:35 ◼   ► but you're not really reviewing,

00:33:36 ◼   ► you're reviewing the point O release

00:33:38 ◼   ► and there's gonna be a whole bunch of stuff

00:33:40 ◼   ► that's not in there and the stuff that's in there,

00:33:41 ◼   ► you might've only seen it for a couple of weeks

00:33:44 ◼   ► and that's just how it's gonna be.

00:33:45 ◼   ► So yeah, it's an interesting, interesting times.

00:33:49 ◼   ► - Yeah, I would say like, I think as you're saying too,

00:33:52 ◼   ► like as a content creator talking about Apple and technology,

00:33:56 ◼   ► I love the fact that they will be releasing things slowly

00:33:59 ◼   ► over a one year period,

00:34:00 ◼   ► because we get more excuses to talk about a new thing.

00:34:04 ◼   ► Like that's great for us.

00:34:06 ◼   ► And you know, it is, I think,

00:34:10 ◼   ► this is one of these things where it's a symptom

00:34:12 ◼   ► of the situation that they're in,

00:34:13 ◼   ► but it is also something that people

00:34:16 ◼   ► who have been following Apple for a long time

00:34:19 ◼   ► have kind of been begging them to do anyway,

00:34:22 ◼   ► that like we don't need,

00:34:24 ◼   ► and they've been doing more and more of it over time,

00:34:26 ◼   ► but the WWDC should be a roadmap of the next 12 months

00:34:31 ◼   ► and it's not all gonna be in three months.

00:34:35 ◼   ► You know, it's just funny, I saw today like fifth,

00:34:38 ◼   ► there are currently six new beta's for iOS 17,

00:34:43 ◼   ► like 17.6 or something like that is out today,

00:34:46 ◼   ► which is funny that like, all right,

00:34:49 ◼   ► we're still doing 17 beta's,

00:34:50 ◼   ► but that's kind of what it should be, I guess.

00:34:53 ◼   ► - Still fixing stuff or doing compliance for EU

00:34:56 ◼   ► or who knows what.

00:34:57 ◼   ► Yeah, I agree that a feature that can't ship in September

00:35:02 ◼   ► shouldn't have to wait for the next September.

00:35:05 ◼   ► Like that's sort of what we're saying

00:35:07 ◼   ► is under Apple's old model,

00:35:09 ◼   ► either it shipped in September or it didn't,

00:35:12 ◼   ► or October or whatever in the fall,

00:35:14 ◼   ► or it didn't ship until the next cycle.

00:35:16 ◼   ► And now what they do is say,

00:35:17 ◼   ► here's what we're working on for the next year.

00:35:19 ◼   ► And this stuff will ship over the course of the year.

00:35:22 ◼   ► And it's a better model, like it's a better model.

00:35:24 ◼   ► You should not have a feature that just misses

00:35:27 ◼   ► by the skin of its teeth

00:35:28 ◼   ► 'cause they aren't gonna have it ready.

00:35:30 ◼   ► And it's sentenced to banishment for a year, right?

00:35:33 ◼   ► Like that's dumb, that shouldn't be the way you do it.

00:35:36 ◼   ► And it allows Apple to hold features back

00:35:39 ◼   ► that it wants to ship, but aren't quite ready.

00:35:42 ◼   ► It has the freedom to say, it's gonna be out of X.1

00:35:47 ◼   ► and it's gonna slide to X.2.

00:35:49 ◼   ► Like that's good, that's a good thing, I think so.

00:35:51 ◼   ► But with Apple intelligence,

00:35:53 ◼   ► you can also see that they're running

00:35:54 ◼   ► as fast as they can, right?

00:35:56 ◼   ► Again, they're that duck

00:35:57 ◼   ► and it's paddling furiously beneath the surface.

00:35:59 ◼   ► And you can see it, you can see that they're like,

00:36:01 ◼   ► ah, this is just the beginning and we're working on it,

00:36:04 ◼   ► but it's not all gonna be there.

00:36:05 ◼   ► And like, yeah, we get it, we get it, but it's okay.

00:36:08 ◼   ► I'm okay with it.

00:36:09 ◼   ► - But at the same time, we knew this was coming

00:36:11 ◼   ► and we've been working on it for ages.

00:36:13 ◼   ► We just so happened to now be shipping these things

00:36:15 ◼   ► all at once.

00:36:16 ◼   ► - Yeah, in pieces.

00:36:18 ◼   ► - The information is reporting that Apple is shifting focus

00:36:22 ◼   ► away from a Vision Pro 2 towards an entry-level,

00:36:27 ◼   ► quote unquote, vision product.

00:36:29 ◼   ► A cheaper, lighter, pared down version

00:36:31 ◼   ► of the Vision OS headset.

00:36:33 ◼   ► They're aiming for a $1,500 price tag,

00:36:36 ◼   ► although they are apparently struggling to decide

00:36:38 ◼   ► what features would get cut from the Vision Pro

00:36:43 ◼   ► to make a cheaper product.

00:36:45 ◼   ► And they wanna have a product on the market

00:36:47 ◼   ► by the end of 2025.

00:36:50 ◼   ► I'm seeing a lot of people say, ha ha, it failed.

00:36:54 ◼   ► What is your feeling about this news?

00:36:56 ◼   ► - So I cheated a little 'cause I listened to you

00:37:00 ◼   ► on Connected talk about this with Steven.

00:37:02 ◼   ► - It's rare that news gets to be,

00:37:05 ◼   ► I get to talk about connected, like news,

00:37:07 ◼   ► I get to talk about rumor news on Connected first.

00:37:09 ◼   ► That is a rare attack. - On Connected, I know.

00:37:10 ◼   ► It is rare.

00:37:13 ◼   ► My first thought about this as somebody

00:37:15 ◼   ► who has a Vision Pro and thinks it's a very interesting

00:37:17 ◼   ► product is this is absolutely what they should be doing.

00:37:20 ◼   ► When they were talking about, there were reports about like,

00:37:22 ◼   ► oh, Apple's not even trying to make a cheaper version of it.

00:37:25 ◼   ► They're just gonna do another Vision Pro

00:37:27 ◼   ► and it's gonna be another $4,000 headset

00:37:30 ◼   ► that's using the latest and greatest.

00:37:32 ◼   ► I thought that that was delusional

00:37:34 ◼   ► and that their big goal should be,

00:37:37 ◼   ► knowing what they know, having shipped a product,

00:37:41 ◼   ► having learned some lessons, presumably they're gonna learn

00:37:43 ◼   ► some more as they go into international markets,

00:37:45 ◼   ► but they've learned some lessons.

00:37:47 ◼   ► They've had time to think about it.

00:37:48 ◼   ► They've had the time to think about their initial decisions

00:37:51 ◼   ► and whether they were right or wrong.

00:37:53 ◼   ► I think, and there's a narrative about Vision Pro sales

00:37:58 ◼   ► that I think is wrong 'cause somebody pointed out like,

00:38:01 ◼   ► initially the reports were like,

00:38:02 ◼   ► oh, Apple can only make 400,000 of them

00:38:05 ◼   ► and so that limits how many.

00:38:06 ◼   ► And now there are stories that are like,

00:38:07 ◼   ► oh, it's really disappointing.

00:38:08 ◼   ► Apple's only gonna sell about 400,000 of them.

00:38:10 ◼   ► It's like, wait, the numbers are the same.

00:38:12 ◼   ► What happened there?

00:38:13 ◼   ► It is not setting the world on fire,

00:38:14 ◼   ► but it's also a severely constrained product.

00:38:16 ◼   ► But like, I don't know how you look at the Vision Pro

00:38:19 ◼   ► and don't think, oh, this needs to be a lot cheaper.

00:38:22 ◼   ► And how much cheaper is a question?

00:38:26 ◼   ► On "Connected," which is a lovely podcast full of nonsense

00:38:31 ◼   ► and also a tech analysis that I recommend,

00:38:33 ◼   ► the connected program here at Relay FM.

00:38:35 ◼   ► - Thank you, thank you, thank you.

00:38:36 ◼   ► - You said, just a little plug throwing it in there.

00:38:38 ◼   ► You said, to summarize you, you're like,

00:38:42 ◼   ► oh, they really gotta get this down to a Quest price.

00:38:46 ◼   ► 500.

00:38:48 ◼   ► And then the rumor's like an expensive iPhone,

00:38:51 ◼   ► like 1500-ish for it.

00:38:53 ◼   ► On an infinite timescale,

00:38:57 ◼   ► and a reference to another podcast, I agree with you.

00:39:00 ◼   ► I think Apple needs to have a product

00:39:02 ◼   ► that is affordable for people who are like,

00:39:04 ◼   ► yeah, why not?

00:39:05 ◼   ► I'll use it for movies and maybe some games and whatever.

00:39:08 ◼   ► I do agree they need to go there.

00:39:11 ◼   ► They probably can't get there with the next one.

00:39:13 ◼   ► And so I think they just need to strive

00:39:15 ◼   ► to push the price down.

00:39:17 ◼   ► And that's where we absolutely agree is,

00:39:20 ◼   ► wherever they can get,

00:39:22 ◼   ► somebody needs to be looking at Vision Hardware and saying,

00:39:25 ◼   ► what is everything we can do to make this product cheaper?

00:39:29 ◼   ► I would even say lighter, yeah,

00:39:31 ◼   ► I mean, lighter would be nice, make it cheaper.

00:39:34 ◼   ► I think the number one thing with the Vision Pro

00:39:36 ◼   ► is not its weight, it's not its size.

00:39:37 ◼   ► Those would be nice too, sure.

00:39:40 ◼   ► But make it cheaper because I agree with you

00:39:45 ◼   ► that at 1500, you're not gonna sell

00:39:48 ◼   ► a zillion of these things.

00:39:50 ◼   ► But at 1500, I do think a certain segment of the market

00:39:54 ◼   ► that is never ever gonna buy it at 3500.

00:39:58 ◼   ► For 1500, could they find if there is more content,

00:40:02 ◼   ► if there are more apps,

00:40:03 ◼   ► if there are better movie and immersive experiences with it,

00:40:06 ◼   ► maybe better games experiences with it.

00:40:09 ◼   ► At 1500, you'll get more of them

00:40:11 ◼   ► and you'll get a little more momentum.

00:40:13 ◼   ► But really the goal should be,

00:40:15 ◼   ► you can be thinking about the high end

00:40:16 ◼   ► and what you wanna do in the long run,

00:40:18 ◼   ► but just get the price down as far as you can

00:40:21 ◼   ► because every dollar it drops, you will pick up some sales,

00:40:25 ◼   ► but you can't stop at 1500.

00:40:28 ◼   ► You do need to keep driving it down.

00:40:30 ◼   ► It just may be the product is so early

00:40:32 ◼   ► that it's gonna take them five years to get down to $500.

00:40:37 ◼   ► And if so, they should do it as fast as possible.

00:40:40 ◼   ► But I could see this, look, 1500 is not a great price,

00:40:45 ◼   ► but it's less than half of the current Vision Pro.

00:40:49 ◼   ► If they can make their next version cost

00:40:51 ◼   ► less than half of the one that they've got out there now,

00:40:55 ◼   ► my point is it's good.

00:40:56 ◼   ► This is exactly what they should be doing

00:40:58 ◼   ► is reducing the price.

00:40:59 ◼   ► That's the most, the number one priority

00:41:01 ◼   ► is to reduce the price of this thing.

00:41:03 ◼   ► - Yeah, the point that I was making on Connect is,

00:41:05 ◼   ► and I stand by it, but I also agree with you,

00:41:08 ◼   ► is I don't think that a $1500 price tag

00:41:12 ◼   ► is still too high for this product

00:41:17 ◼   ► to make a meaningful impact,

00:41:18 ◼   ► which I think is what Apple realistically need.

00:41:20 ◼   ► They need this product to make a meaningful impact

00:41:24 ◼   ► if they want to continue to invest in it.

00:41:27 ◼   ► And I think that 1500 is still too high.

00:41:29 ◼   ► 1500 is a lot better and they will pick up more people,

00:41:33 ◼   ► but I don't think that this is going to be a product

00:41:37 ◼   ► that is meaningful until it is impulse pricing.

00:41:41 ◼   ► And 1500 is still too much.

00:41:44 ◼   ► The price of an iPhone being a 1500 or what have,

00:41:47 ◼   ► doesn't matter, 'cause an iPhone is an essential

00:41:50 ◼   ► piece of modern life. - Yes, it's in your pocket

00:41:52 ◼   ► all the time.

00:41:53 ◼   ► - It is essential. - This is a novelty.

00:41:54 ◼   ► I agree, I just think, if I disagree,

00:41:58 ◼   ► it's that, first off, I don't think it's realistic

00:42:00 ◼   ► that they're gonna get it to 500.

00:42:02 ◼   ► And second-- - No, it's not.

00:42:03 ◼   ► It's completely unrealistic, but--

00:42:05 ◼   ► - I think it's the right direction to go.

00:42:07 ◼   ► And I do think that they can pick up users

00:42:09 ◼   ► by going from 3500 to 1500.

00:42:11 ◼   ► But I agree with you in the sense that

00:42:13 ◼   ► the goal can't be to make a $1000 headset.

00:42:16 ◼   ► Like the goal can't-- - That can't be the strategy.

00:42:17 ◼   ► - It can't be the goal.

00:42:18 ◼   ► It has to be a $500, 700, it's Apple, right?

00:42:21 ◼   ► So maybe it's a $700, $600.

00:42:23 ◼   ► But it needs to be something like that.

00:42:26 ◼   ► Even at 999, at least you could make the argument,

00:42:29 ◼   ► it would be pricey, but they just need to do everything,

00:42:34 ◼   ► every single aspect of that product

00:42:37 ◼   ► needs to be put under the microscope and said,

00:42:39 ◼   ► do we need this?

00:42:40 ◼   ► Could it be cheaper?

00:42:41 ◼   ► How, does it betray the product?

00:42:43 ◼   ► Or is it just like, let's just get rid of it?

00:42:45 ◼   ► And I'm sure we all have lists of things that are obvious.

00:42:49 ◼   ► I'm sure that the people who build this thing

00:42:50 ◼   ► also could look at it and say,

00:42:52 ◼   ► like something you guys mentioned

00:42:53 ◼   ► that I thought was really interesting is,

00:42:55 ◼   ► if you can improve your machine learning models,

00:42:57 ◼   ► you can drop sensors, right?

00:42:59 ◼   ► Like that's one thing you could potentially do

00:43:01 ◼   ► is if you can have a new sensor

00:43:03 ◼   ► that maybe covers more ground,

00:43:05 ◼   ► but it's a little bit lower resolution,

00:43:08 ◼   ► but the machine learning model is more accurate,

00:43:11 ◼   ► you can save money by shaving sensors off of it.

00:43:14 ◼   ► And there are probably other parts that are like that too.

00:43:16 ◼   ► They don't need to ship it

00:43:17 ◼   ► with the super 3D knitted headband, right?

00:43:20 ◼   ► Like there are lots of things you could take out of it

00:43:22 ◼   ► to get it down.

00:43:24 ◼   ► And they need to, they absolutely,

00:43:27 ◼   ► every, leave no stone unturned.

00:43:30 ◼   ► But I'm gonna mention something else here,

00:43:32 ◼   ► 'cause I was thinking about your conversation with Steven

00:43:35 ◼   ► and thinking about Vision Pro Direction.

00:43:38 ◼   ► You know, like they ship, we've talked about it.

00:43:39 ◼   ► They ship Job Simulator for it, right?

00:43:43 ◼   ► And Vacation Simulator.

00:43:44 ◼   ► And there's some other games that are on it now.

00:43:47 ◼   ► And it's interesting 'cause those are VR games

00:43:50 ◼   ► that are just have been out there for ages

00:43:52 ◼   ► and they ported them to the platform, right?

00:43:54 ◼   ► Also throw out a, before I get to my point,

00:43:56 ◼   ► I'm gonna throw out a shout out for

00:43:58 ◼   ► When Cards Fall by the Gameband and Snowman,

00:44:01 ◼   ► which has been an iPhone and iPad game for a while now,

00:44:05 ◼   ► but there's a Vision Pro version of it.

00:44:06 ◼   ► It's great, it's gorgeous.

00:44:07 ◼   ► It's like Monument Valley-esque puzzler.

00:44:09 ◼   ► And Vision Pro version is spatial.

00:44:13 ◼   ► So, I mean, it's 3D basically is what it is,

00:44:15 ◼   ► but it's gorgeous.

00:44:16 ◼   ► It's really good.

00:44:17 ◼   ► I really love it.

00:44:19 ◼   ► This brings me to my point,

00:44:20 ◼   ► which is while Apple is rethinking things,

00:44:24 ◼   ► its assumptions about the Vision Pro hardware

00:44:26 ◼   ► like do we need to spend that money

00:44:29 ◼   ► on the lenticular external display that shows eyes

00:44:32 ◼   ► and every other thing, I mean, that's the easy shot,

00:44:35 ◼   ► but like every other thing about the product

00:44:37 ◼   ► that there was an assumption like,

00:44:37 ◼   ► well, we have to have this

00:44:38 ◼   ► and they end up with a $3,500 headset.

00:44:41 ◼   ► They also need to rethink some of their assumptions

00:44:44 ◼   ► that are, I think mistaken.

00:44:49 ◼   ► I was gonna insult them more and I'm not going to,

00:44:53 ◼   ► that were mistaken and that were probably based

00:44:56 ◼   ► on some dogma or some, or being too prideful

00:44:59 ◼   ► about the work, the amazing work they've done

00:45:03 ◼   ► on their hand tracking.

00:45:05 ◼   ► This is a long way of me saying they absolutely 100%

00:45:09 ◼   ► need to make hand controllers for the Vision Pro.

00:45:14 ◼   ► Oh, okay.

00:45:15 ◼   ► Or make a hand controller API and let third parties do it.

00:45:18 ◼   ► Because they could pick up one of the problems,

00:45:21 ◼   ► especially if you're going to 1500,

00:45:23 ◼   ► one of the problems with the Vision Pro is

00:45:26 ◼   ► it doesn't play games.

00:45:27 ◼   ► It plays some games, but games you think of as VR games,

00:45:31 ◼   ► the ones they've got are not very good for the most part

00:45:34 ◼   ► because they have to rely on the hand tracking

00:45:36 ◼   ► and the precision you can have with hand controllers

00:45:38 ◼   ► is so much better than what you can do with hand tracking.

00:45:42 ◼   ► Doing Beat Saber or the Darth Vader game, right?

00:45:45 ◼   ► Or like there are so many things you can do

00:45:48 ◼   ► with precision on an Oculus Quest with their hand controllers

00:45:52 ◼   ► and they don't have to be mandatory.

00:45:54 ◼   ► They could be, again, they could be third party

00:45:56 ◼   ► even with an API.

00:45:58 ◼   ► But if you had the ability to, as Apple, unlock ports

00:46:02 ◼   ► of all those VR games that assume that you've got

00:46:06 ◼   ► precision hand controllers and that don't work

00:46:09 ◼   ► when you try to build them with just hand tracking,

00:46:11 ◼   ► it makes the product better.

00:46:14 ◼   ► It makes the product more appealing to have that.

00:46:16 ◼   ► If I could do, okay, maybe I can't do Beat Saber,

00:46:19 ◼   ► but if I could do something like Beat Saber

00:46:21 ◼   ► with the precision of Beat Saber,

00:46:23 ◼   ► which Vision Pro does not have, if I could do something,

00:46:26 ◼   ► if it's not getting Vader Immortal or whatever it is

00:46:29 ◼   ► that I played on Quest, something like it

00:46:33 ◼   ► where you're using the precision to do a lightsaber,

00:46:35 ◼   ► there's a lot of lightsaber, it's a good fit, or whatever.

00:46:39 ◼   ► All of these other VR games that have been done

00:46:41 ◼   ► for other platforms that could potentially be ported

00:46:43 ◼   ► to Vision Pro and they just can't be because Apple said,

00:46:49 ◼   ► no, no, it's like if you see a stylus, they blew it.

00:46:52 ◼   ► Remember that?

00:46:53 ◼   ► This is that, which is, I get them saying

00:46:56 ◼   ► if you see hand controllers, they blew it

00:46:58 ◼   ► because there was a period with the Quest II

00:47:01 ◼   ► when I got it where there was no hand tracking.

00:47:04 ◼   ► And when they did hand tracking, it was bad.

00:47:06 ◼   ► The hand tracking in Quest III is okay.

00:47:08 ◼   ► It's actually okay.

00:47:09 ◼   ► But on the Quest II, it was really bad.

00:47:12 ◼   ► It was an afterthought.

00:47:13 ◼   ► Pass-through was an afterthought.

00:47:15 ◼   ► And Meta has gotten better with that over time.

00:47:19 ◼   ► But like, so I get Apple saying, no,

00:47:22 ◼   ► we want the Vision Pro to be a device

00:47:23 ◼   ► where you don't have to put on your little controllers.

00:47:26 ◼   ► You can literally just slip it on and sit there

00:47:29 ◼   ► and interact with the world.

00:47:30 ◼   ► Great.

00:47:30 ◼   ► Philosophically, 100% agree with that.

00:47:32 ◼   ► But you know what?

00:47:33 ◼   ► Apple still shipped an Apple Pencil

00:47:35 ◼   ► because there are things that are better

00:47:38 ◼   ► with a stylus, with a pencil, things that are better.

00:47:42 ◼   ► And VR is better with hand controllers

00:47:45 ◼   ► 'cause you can play more games with more precision

00:47:47 ◼   ► that your beautiful sensors that are very expensive

00:47:50 ◼   ► and your amazing ML models just can't do the complexity

00:47:55 ◼   ► of pressing a button on a hand controller

00:47:59 ◼   ► instead of having to do a very specific,

00:48:01 ◼   ► like I'm trying to put my fingers together,

00:48:02 ◼   ► but I'm playing a game, I'm moving my hand around

00:48:04 ◼   ► and it can't see that I'm putting my fingers together

00:48:06 ◼   ► or it misreads moving my hand

00:48:08 ◼   ► as putting my fingers together

00:48:09 ◼   ► and the input's all messed up.

00:48:11 ◼   ► Like it's just, there are applications on the Vision Pro

00:48:16 ◼   ► that can't be done because Apple said

00:48:20 ◼   ► we're not doing hand controllers.

00:48:21 ◼   ► So if I was working on this product,

00:48:25 ◼   ► that would be one of the things on my list is,

00:48:27 ◼   ► in addition to working to make a cheaper model,

00:48:30 ◼   ► we've got to add a proper hand controller API

00:48:33 ◼   ► to the operating system.

00:48:34 ◼   ► And either we make a first party set of hand controllers

00:48:37 ◼   ► and they can reinvent the hand controller if they want,

00:48:39 ◼   ► whatever, or if you just find partners or a partner,

00:48:45 ◼   ► maybe you'd even design it for them,

00:48:46 ◼   ► but whatever it is, just say, we need to have it.

00:48:49 ◼   ► 'Cause I just, I feel obviously,

00:48:50 ◼   ► 'cause I've just ranted about it for five minutes,

00:48:52 ◼   ► I feel very strongly,

00:48:53 ◼   ► like they want this thing to be successful.

00:48:55 ◼   ► There's a whole class of fun applications for it

00:48:59 ◼   ► that would make you more inclined to use it or buy it

00:49:03 ◼   ► that they refuse to have on their platform

00:49:05 ◼   ► because they don't deign to have these awful hand controllers

00:49:10 ◼   ► that you shouldn't need to have

00:49:11 ◼   ► to do proper augmented reality or VR.

00:49:14 ◼   ► And they need to get over it.

00:49:15 ◼   ► This product, for this product to be good,

00:49:17 ◼   ► they gotta get over it.

00:49:19 ◼   ► They just, they gotta get over it.

00:49:21 ◼   ► I'll say it, the pride or the arrogance of like,

00:49:23 ◼   ► well, we're just gonna roll in

00:49:24 ◼   ► and we're gonna do our awesome thing

00:49:25 ◼   ► and we don't need this other stupid thing

00:49:27 ◼   ► that Meta is doing.

00:49:28 ◼   ► It's like, they're wrong.

00:49:29 ◼   ► They're wrong.

00:49:30 ◼   ► They can't do it.

00:49:31 ◼   ► You gotta have a hand controller

00:49:33 ◼   ► if you wanna play those games

00:49:33 ◼   ► and you gotta have a catalog of apps for Pete's sake.

00:49:37 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:49:38 ◼   ► Do you agree that it's like a glaring,

00:49:41 ◼   ► like why would you hurt your product by not having it?

00:49:44 ◼   ► - Oh, I mean, I said it from the beginning, right?

00:49:47 ◼   ► The gaming story on Vision Pro will always be hampered

00:49:52 ◼   ► by the fact that most successful games

00:49:56 ◼   ► rely on controllers so can't be ported.

00:49:59 ◼   ► And there are some that work,

00:50:01 ◼   ► like your job simulator or whatever,

00:50:02 ◼   ► you're just emulating your hands, right?

00:50:05 ◼   ► And so that's fine.

00:50:06 ◼   ► - Right.

00:50:07 ◼   ► And they'll say, oh, we could do a PlayStation controller

00:50:09 ◼   ► or something that's like, that ain't it, guys.

00:50:11 ◼   ► PlayStation controller in VR, that ain't it.

00:50:13 ◼   ► That's not--

00:50:13 ◼   ► - No, that's not it.

00:50:14 ◼   ► I mean, unless you somehow make a deal with PlayStation

00:50:17 ◼   ► to use their PSVR controllers, right?

00:50:19 ◼   ► Like that would work.

00:50:21 ◼   ► That would do the job.

00:50:21 ◼   ► But like there are, love more hate.

00:50:24 ◼   ► There are lots and lots of shooting games in VR.

00:50:27 ◼   ► And I've played some,

00:50:28 ◼   ► like one called Superhot is fantastic.

00:50:30 ◼   ► There's another one that I can't remember the name of,

00:50:32 ◼   ► but like they're exhilarating

00:50:34 ◼   ► and really fun and interesting.

00:50:36 ◼   ► And some of them, they deal with like the real life element

00:50:39 ◼   ► by not making people look like people, right?

00:50:42 ◼   ► Like in, you know, is what it is,

00:50:44 ◼   ► but it is a very successful

00:50:46 ◼   ► and there's a lot of zombie games and stuff like that.

00:50:48 ◼   ► There's a very, very well reviewed game

00:50:51 ◼   ► called Asgard's Wrath 2.

00:50:53 ◼   ► I mean, the problem is a lot of these good games now

00:50:55 ◼   ► are being bought up by Meta.

00:50:57 ◼   ► So that poses its own problem,

00:50:59 ◼   ► but it would be easier for more gaming experiences

00:51:04 ◼   ► if there was a more gaming precise input method,

00:51:09 ◼   ► which there isn't.

00:51:10 ◼   ► - Yeah, this is, it's just,

00:51:13 ◼   ► I think about the limited number,

00:51:16 ◼   ► I mean, 'cause the joke that I made

00:51:17 ◼   ► and that everybody else probably made at WWDC

00:51:21 ◼   ► when they put up that image

00:51:23 ◼   ► of all of the icons of Vision OS apps,

00:51:26 ◼   ► I believe I turned to Casey and said,

00:51:29 ◼   ► "That's all of them."

00:51:31 ◼   ► Right? I mean, this is the problem

00:51:33 ◼   ► is there aren't that many Vision Pro apps.

00:51:35 ◼   ► And there are some,

00:51:36 ◼   ► and there aren't like reason to buy a Vision Pro apps.

00:51:40 ◼   ► And I'm not saying playing a game

00:51:42 ◼   ► you could also play on a Quest for $500

00:51:44 ◼   ► is a reason to buy a Vision Pro.

00:51:48 ◼   ► But if I'm looking at that $1,500 product

00:51:50 ◼   ► or that, or a thousand dollar product from Apple,

00:51:52 ◼   ► the low cost one, low cost in quotes, right?

00:51:55 ◼   ► $1,500.

00:51:56 ◼   ► And I think, well, all right,

00:51:58 ◼   ► they're doing some immersive sports

00:51:59 ◼   ► and there are those immersive movies

00:52:00 ◼   ► and there's a bunch of 3D movies.

00:52:01 ◼   ► I'm like, and there's apps.

00:52:02 ◼   ► It's like, it's kind of interesting, but I don't know.

00:52:05 ◼   ► Well, if you've got a game catalog on top of it,

00:52:09 ◼   ► it just makes it more appealing.

00:52:10 ◼   ► It makes it more appealing.

00:52:11 ◼   ► And I would say for existing Vision Pro users,

00:52:14 ◼   ► it would make it more appealing if you used it more.

00:52:17 ◼   ► If I used it more, I would like it more.

00:52:21 ◼   ► And so anyway, yeah, they need to do it.

00:52:23 ◼   ► They need to get over whatever their opinion is.

00:52:27 ◼   ► I mean, and this is just, I don't know for sure.

00:52:30 ◼   ► But my guess is there is a dogma inside Apple,

00:52:34 ◼   ► which is if it can't be done with hand controls

00:52:36 ◼   ► and our amazing sensors and ML models for hand tracking,

00:52:41 ◼   ► it shouldn't be done on Vision Pro.

00:52:43 ◼   ► And it's just wrong, they're wrong.

00:52:45 ◼   ► It shouldn't be mandatory.

00:52:46 ◼   ► And it's not gonna be mandatory

00:52:49 ◼   ► 'cause the Vision Pro does so much so well.

00:52:51 ◼   ► But like, it's not like those games could be ported

00:52:55 ◼   ► to the Vision Pro and work with hand tracking.

00:52:57 ◼   ► It's that there are classes of games

00:52:59 ◼   ► that simply can't be done with hand tracking.

00:53:01 ◼   ► You need a controller and they just need to get over it.

00:53:03 ◼   ► So I don't know.

00:53:05 ◼   ► It's, that's my, I just,

00:53:07 ◼   ► that actually was the thing that I was most shocked by

00:53:09 ◼   ► about the Vision OS 2 announcement in some ways

00:53:12 ◼   ► was that there was not even a nod toward like a third party

00:53:14 ◼   ► or whatever, like there's just zero.

00:53:16 ◼   ► And I don't know, I hope they're not delusional about it.

00:53:21 ◼   ► I hope they know this inside and they're just not,

00:53:23 ◼   ► 'cause that's the thing with Apple is you can't tell.

00:53:25 ◼   ► Do they know, but they're working on it and it's not ready.

00:53:28 ◼   ► So they're not gonna do it

00:53:29 ◼   ► and they're not gonna say anything

00:53:30 ◼   ► and they're gonna do their confident marketing

00:53:32 ◼   ► of like, no, no, we're happy with the way it is,

00:53:34 ◼   ► even though they know in the background

00:53:35 ◼   ► that it's absolutely not okay and they're trying to fix it.

00:53:39 ◼   ► Or are they actually delusional and think it's okay?

00:53:42 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:53:43 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:53:44 ◼   ► I sure hope it's not actual delusion

00:53:46 ◼   ► and that they're working on it.

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00:55:01 ◼   ► and relay FM.

00:55:02 ◼   ► It's time to lawyer up, Jason Snow.

00:55:05 ◼   ► - Hear ye, hear ye.

00:55:08 ◼   ► - Oh, I like the dun dun.

00:55:11 ◼   ► Dun dun dun dun dun dun.

00:55:12 ◼   ► You know, that was good, I liked that.

00:55:14 ◼   ► - Okay, all right.

00:55:15 ◼   ► We're still working it out.

00:55:16 ◼   ► - We're recording this show a few days early.

00:55:19 ◼   ► It's actually Friday, the 21st, when we're recording this.

00:55:22 ◼   ► While we were recording today,

00:55:24 ◼   ► the Discord alerted me to some news.

00:55:27 ◼   ► Gonna read from Mark Gurman here.

00:55:29 ◼   ► Now this is a bit of a longer quote than usual

00:55:31 ◼   ► because I haven't had a lot of time

00:55:33 ◼   ► to digest this information.

00:55:34 ◼   ► Apple has announced that it is withholding

00:55:37 ◼   ► the release of Apple intelligence, iPhone mirroring,

00:55:40 ◼   ► and SharePlay screen sharing from users in the EU this year

00:55:44 ◼   ► because the Digital Markets Act allegedly forces it

00:55:47 ◼   ► to downgrade the security of its products and services,

00:55:50 ◼   ► citing concerns posed by the block's regulatory attempts

00:55:54 ◼   ► to rein in big tech.

00:55:55 ◼   ► Apple said in a statement,

00:55:57 ◼   ► "We are concerned that the interoperability requirements

00:56:00 ◼   ► "of the DMA could force us to compromise the integrity

00:56:03 ◼   ► "of our products in ways that risk user privacy

00:56:06 ◼   ► "and data security."

00:56:08 ◼   ► Now, on first glance of this, one, fascinating,

00:56:14 ◼   ► but two, I don't feel like I understand

00:56:18 ◼   ► what Apple is saying.

00:56:19 ◼   ► Like maybe there's a part here about what the DMA wants.

00:56:26 ◼   ► That means that this, like,

00:56:28 ◼   ► honestly this doesn't even really feel like anything to me

00:56:31 ◼   ► other than Apple is deciding to fire shots back at the EU.

00:56:36 ◼   ► I will just bring in a point here

00:56:39 ◼   ► that prior to this announcement,

00:56:41 ◼   ► EU Competition Commissioner Margaret Vestager told CNBC,

00:56:44 ◼   ► "We have a number of Apple issues.

00:56:46 ◼   ► "I find them very serious.

00:56:47 ◼   ► "I was very surprised we would have such suspicions

00:56:50 ◼   ► "of Apple being non-compliant."

00:56:52 ◼   ► - It's a very I'm not mad, I'm just disappointed

00:56:55 ◼   ► in the kind of statement which I really love.

00:56:57 ◼   ► - Which is a very funny way to do it.

00:56:59 ◼   ► - I have a theory probably between when we record this

00:57:02 ◼   ► and post it, there'll be more details,

00:57:03 ◼   ► but I have a theory here, which is if you're Apple

00:57:06 ◼   ► and you're tired of getting fined and yelled at

00:57:11 ◼   ► about misinterpreting or lightly interpreting,

00:57:14 ◼   ► intentionally, the DMA,

00:57:16 ◼   ► and they won't pre-clear you, right?

00:57:20 ◼   ► They won't pre-clear you theoretically.

00:57:22 ◼   ► Although, but sometimes what happens is Apple says,

00:57:25 ◼   ► "We can't do this because of the DMA."

00:57:27 ◼   ► And the EC says, "Oh no, no, you can do that.

00:57:30 ◼   ► "That's okay."

00:57:32 ◼   ► I wonder if that's what they're doing here.

00:57:33 ◼   ► I wonder if they're just saying,

00:57:34 ◼   ► "Look, this is our way as Apple of announcing

00:57:38 ◼   ► "that we don't think we're allowed

00:57:40 ◼   ► "to do these things in the EU.

00:57:41 ◼   ► "So we're gonna withhold these great features

00:57:44 ◼   ► "from our European customers because,

00:57:46 ◼   ► "but it's not our fault, it's the DMA."

00:57:49 ◼   ► It does give the European Commission the opportunity to say,

00:57:53 ◼   ► "Oh, no, no, no, no, no, you can do that.

00:57:56 ◼   ► "We didn't mean it that way."

00:57:58 ◼   ► I don't know if that's the game being played here,

00:58:00 ◼   ► but I wonder if in part it's to get European customers

00:58:05 ◼   ► to be asking the Commission like, "Why?

00:58:08 ◼   ► "It doesn't make sense.

00:58:09 ◼   ► "Why can't I use iPhone mirroring?"

00:58:11 ◼   ► And for them to say, "No, no, no, we didn't mean that.

00:58:13 ◼   ► "No, no, no, it's fine, Apple.

00:58:14 ◼   ► "You can ship that feature."

00:58:15 ◼   ► Right? - What this reminds me of

00:58:17 ◼   ► is when months ago we were talking about the,

00:58:21 ◼   ► I don't even remember the name of it now,

00:58:22 ◼   ► but the bill that was going through the Parliament,

00:58:25 ◼   ► going through Parliament in the UK.

00:58:27 ◼   ► - Oh, right, about the-- - That would require--

00:58:29 ◼   ► - And then encryption. - Yeah.

00:58:30 ◼   ► And there's more of that kind of stuff

00:58:31 ◼   ► happening in Europe now anyway.

00:58:33 ◼   ► And that Apple kind of started making statements

00:58:36 ◼   ► of like, "Oh, man, it'd be shame

00:58:38 ◼   ► "if something happened to your iMessage."

00:58:39 ◼   ► - If iMessage just got turned off in the UK, yeah,

00:58:43 ◼   ► it'd be a shame. - And other features, right,

00:58:44 ◼   ► that they may have to leave the UK market.

00:58:47 ◼   ► There has been a lot of talk since the DMA was introduced

00:58:51 ◼   ► about if Apple should just leave Europe.

00:58:54 ◼   ► I see this as a talking point.

00:58:55 ◼   ► John Gober brings it up quite a bit.

00:58:57 ◼   ► And I don't really think it's a great argument

00:59:00 ◼   ► that they should just leave Europe

00:59:02 ◼   ► because it just doesn't make sense to me.

00:59:05 ◼   ► This is the way you do it, though.

00:59:07 ◼   ► You say, "We're not, oh, we can't give you

00:59:10 ◼   ► "the nice fancy features

00:59:12 ◼   ► "because we're just too scared of the DMA."

00:59:15 ◼   ► Which is also hilarious that Apple,

00:59:18 ◼   ► who is by all accounts seeming to not care about the DMA,

00:59:23 ◼   ► right, in a lot of instances,

00:59:27 ◼   ► like you linked to this in six colors,

00:59:29 ◼   ► that they're refusing to notarize emulator apps

00:59:32 ◼   ► that would be distributed in alternative app marketplaces,

00:59:35 ◼   ► which by basically all reading of the DMA

00:59:38 ◼   ► is something they are not allowed to do,

00:59:40 ◼   ► but they're doing it anyway.

00:59:41 ◼   ► - But they're doing it anyway.

00:59:42 ◼   ► - And like what Margaret Vestager is saying,

00:59:44 ◼   ► that things like, seemingly,

00:59:47 ◼   ► things like the CTF and stuff like that

00:59:49 ◼   ► are also against the DMA.

00:59:50 ◼   ► But in this instance, Apple's like,

00:59:52 ◼   ► "Oh, we wouldn't dare break the DMA."

00:59:56 ◼   ► - It's existing features versus new features.

00:59:59 ◼   ► And you can see they've got this pincer approach now,

01:00:01 ◼   ► which is drag your feet on changing your existing features.

01:00:05 ◼   ► And then now we get the other part of it,

01:00:07 ◼   ► which is withhold new features for fear.

01:00:12 ◼   ► And it's, I mean, it is a,

01:00:15 ◼   ► this may have truth in it,

01:00:17 ◼   ► but it's also a political calculation.

01:00:20 ◼   ► They are saying, look at everything you're not gonna get

01:00:25 ◼   ► because of the DMA.

01:00:26 ◼   ► And it's going to,

01:00:27 ◼   ► they're trying to motivate people in Europe to say,

01:00:30 ◼   ► "I don't like this DMA.

01:00:31 ◼   ► I want that feature.

01:00:33 ◼   ► Why can't I get it?"

01:00:34 ◼   ► And that's good because they're the ones

01:00:36 ◼   ► who can go to their elected officials and say,

01:00:40 ◼   ► "Stop this, this is bad."

01:00:42 ◼   ► It puts potentially negative press on the commission

01:00:46 ◼   ► and potentially makes the commission more likely

01:00:48 ◼   ► to say to Apple, "Okay, you can, it's fine.

01:00:52 ◼   ► You can do that and be lighter on them."

01:00:55 ◼   ► So it's a game of,

01:00:58 ◼   ► it's like, I was gonna say it's a game of cat and mouse.

01:01:00 ◼   ► It's like a game of chicken.

01:01:01 ◼   ► Like literally they're just like,

01:01:03 ◼   ► barreling down the road saying,

01:01:04 ◼   ► "Nope, you don't get those features.

01:01:06 ◼   ► No Apple intelligence in Europe.

01:01:08 ◼   ► Sorry, Europe, womp womp, sad trombone."

01:01:11 ◼   ► - And there's another statement given to the Financial Times

01:01:13 ◼   ► from another Apple spokesperson who says,

01:01:15 ◼   ► "Due to the regulatory uncertainties brought about

01:01:18 ◼   ► by the Digital Markets Act,

01:01:20 ◼   ► we do not believe that we'll be able to roll out

01:01:22 ◼   ► the three of these new features,

01:01:25 ◼   ► iPhone mirroring, share play, screen sharing

01:01:27 ◼   ► and Apple intelligence to our EU users this year."

01:01:30 ◼   ► - Yeah, right?

01:01:33 ◼   ► - Very strange. - Right?

01:01:34 ◼   ► And maybe the way they phrase that is,

01:01:36 ◼   ► we're concerned that we're gonna get fined

01:01:38 ◼   ► and we're gonna just ship it and see what they say.

01:01:41 ◼   ► It feels very much like a ball is in your court statement.

01:01:44 ◼   ► Which is one, is this okay?

01:01:48 ◼   ► Let us know, but we're worried

01:01:49 ◼   ► that you're gonna knock us for this.

01:01:51 ◼   ► Or two, and this might also be what they're trying to say is,

01:01:54 ◼   ► we can ship this in the rest of the world now

01:01:58 ◼   ► because it's built the way Apple usually builds features.

01:02:02 ◼   ► But if the EU is gonna require

01:02:04 ◼   ► that anytime we do a feature like this,

01:02:06 ◼   ► we have to publish an open API

01:02:09 ◼   ► and we have to have it be accessible

01:02:12 ◼   ► from third parties and all of that.

01:02:14 ◼   ► If that's so, those features will need more work

01:02:19 ◼   ► and we can't commit to shipping those in this cycle.

01:02:22 ◼   ► So that's one way, if you're like,

01:02:25 ◼   ► "Oh, well you can ship a new feature, but you need,"

01:02:27 ◼   ► let's say the iPhone mirroring.

01:02:30 ◼   ► What if they have read,

01:02:31 ◼   ► whether it's aggressively read or not,

01:02:34 ◼   ► a DMA aspect that says,

01:02:40 ◼   ► "If you offer this feature,

01:02:42 ◼   ► "you need to also offer it for other devices

01:02:43 ◼   ► "like Android phones."

01:02:45 ◼   ► And Apple's options are,

01:02:50 ◼   ► what Apple said all along is,

01:02:52 ◼   ► "You roll out a feature and then you expand it."

01:02:54 ◼   ► But they're rolling it out.

01:02:55 ◼   ► They are simultaneously rolling it out

01:02:58 ◼   ► to make iPhones better with Macs.

01:03:00 ◼   ► And because it's a good feature for Mac users.

01:03:03 ◼   ► And both of those things are true.

01:03:05 ◼   ► It makes having an Android phone worse

01:03:07 ◼   ► and makes having an iPhone better.

01:03:09 ◼   ► And so you could argue if you're in Europe,

01:03:13 ◼   ► you could say, "No, no, no, no, no, you can't do that."

01:03:17 ◼   ► Although the Mac's not a gatekeeper, it's very weird, right?

01:03:20 ◼   ► But it's like, "No, no, no, no,

01:03:20 ◼   ► "you also need to make that available," or whatever.

01:03:23 ◼   ► But I'm just saying, whether it's that example or not,

01:03:26 ◼   ► this is one way that Apple can argue

01:03:30 ◼   ► that their shipping features the way they ship features.

01:03:35 ◼   ► And if Europe requires them to ship features

01:03:37 ◼   ► with a bunch of extra stuff on top of it,

01:03:39 ◼   ► they're just not gonna ship those features in Europe,

01:03:41 ◼   ► at least not at first.

01:03:42 ◼   ► Interesting, I mean, it's politics, it's strategy.

01:03:46 ◼   ► - Yeah, my read on this,

01:03:48 ◼   ► because this press release could have come out at any time,

01:03:52 ◼   ► right, whether they just realized this,

01:03:55 ◼   ► like they didn't at any point work this out.

01:03:58 ◼   ► I believe Apple knows, because I think

01:04:03 ◼   ► there is communication that occurs.

01:04:06 ◼   ► They are about to get hit by the EU, again.

01:04:09 ◼   ► They're gonna either get fined or they're gonna,

01:04:11 ◼   ► some, it's been bubbling for the last couple of weeks.

01:04:16 ◼   ► This is them preempting that by saying,

01:04:21 ◼   ► if you're gonna make us do this,

01:04:23 ◼   ► like really make us do this the way you want,

01:04:26 ◼   ► enforce the way you want,

01:04:28 ◼   ► this is what we'll do to your customers.

01:04:30 ◼   ► Like, it's almost like, oh, you want some protection

01:04:35 ◼   ► around it, like it's, but this is what happens

01:04:38 ◼   ► in these kinds of scenarios, right?

01:04:40 ◼   ► This is posturing from all sides, right?

01:04:42 ◼   ► Margaret Vestager is not just like falling into CNBC

01:04:45 ◼   ► and giving a quote, right?

01:04:47 ◼   ► She is doing this similarly,

01:04:49 ◼   ► she's trying to stoke it up, right?

01:04:51 ◼   ► Like before anything is, like, oh, I'm so shocked

01:04:56 ◼   ► and surprised at them, and then Apple's like,

01:04:58 ◼   ► oh man, if only we could give these amazing features

01:05:01 ◼   ► to your customers.

01:05:03 ◼   ► - It's a new weapon for Apple, right?

01:05:04 ◼   ► 'Cause it's been about existing features needing

01:05:06 ◼   ► to be retrofit to meet the rules.

01:05:09 ◼   ► And so Apple's like been dragging their feet and all that.

01:05:11 ◼   ► This is a whole new front in Apple's battle with Europe,

01:05:14 ◼   ► which is withholding features and making note of it.

01:05:19 ◼   ► Like, and you would think, oh yeah,

01:05:22 ◼   ► but they're hurting themselves in the eyes

01:05:23 ◼   ► of people in Europe.

01:05:24 ◼   ► It's like, well, they are,

01:05:26 ◼   ► but what they're really doing is saying,

01:05:28 ◼   ► we can't give you these features because of your bureaucrats.

01:05:32 ◼   ► So they're trying to put pressure on bureaucrats

01:05:36 ◼   ► because in the end, the bureaucrats don't speak for Apple.

01:05:41 ◼   ► We learned that.

01:05:42 ◼   ► They do theoretically speak for the residents

01:05:47 ◼   ► of those countries.

01:05:48 ◼   ► And it puts a little bit of pressure on them to say,

01:05:52 ◼   ► oh, Apple's products are worse in Europe because of you,

01:05:55 ◼   ► not because of them.

01:05:56 ◼   ► Everybody else gets these features, but you don't.

01:05:58 ◼   ► And it's a nice flip side to the positive PR,

01:06:00 ◼   ► presumably of, hey, only in Europe

01:06:03 ◼   ► can you have third-party app stores and all of that.

01:06:05 ◼   ► It's like, okay.

01:06:06 ◼   ► You're like, hey, they're working for me.

01:06:07 ◼   ► We got features nobody else in the world has.

01:06:09 ◼   ► And now it's gonna be only in Europe

01:06:11 ◼   ► can you not have Apple intelligence.

01:06:13 ◼   ► Like, oh, oh, this isn't good for me.

01:06:16 ◼   ► And that's a message that Apple wants to send.

01:06:18 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:06:19 ◼   ► - I love that it's heating up again.

01:06:21 ◼   ► I do, I love it.

01:06:22 ◼   ► I'm sorry, I love it.

01:06:23 ◼   ► I just, I find it so fascinating to watch this play out.

01:06:27 ◼   ► And I expect that for next week's episode,

01:06:32 ◼   ► you're gonna have even more.

01:06:34 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah.

01:06:35 ◼   ► There's gonna be a lot here.

01:06:36 ◼   ► That emulator thing too, just, I miss it when it happened.

01:06:39 ◼   ► It happened like right before WWDC,

01:06:41 ◼   ► but Apple's doing that thing where they're like,

01:06:43 ◼   ► oh well, but there's a security rule.

01:06:45 ◼   ► And they're like, there are a couple rules

01:06:47 ◼   ► that are having when you're in the app store.

01:06:50 ◼   ► But one of those rules also happens

01:06:52 ◼   ► when you're not in the app store.

01:06:53 ◼   ► And it's the rule against a specific,

01:06:56 ◼   ► it seems like it's the rule against like having binaries

01:06:59 ◼   ► that come in from outside and are executed,

01:07:02 ◼   ► which is weird because I think Delta does that

01:07:04 ◼   ► and Delta is allowed everywhere.

01:07:06 ◼   ► Also troubling is that it took them months

01:07:08 ◼   ► to reject that app, which suggests that first off,

01:07:11 ◼   ► this seems to be measured, like Apple had debates about it

01:07:15 ◼   ► and decided to go ahead and reject these things,

01:07:17 ◼   ► even though it seems inconsistent.

01:07:19 ◼   ► And Riley Testa has also said that,

01:07:25 ◼   ► who does Alt Store, that Apple has dragged their feet on

01:07:27 ◼   ► notarizing all sorts of apps for Alt Store as well.

01:07:31 ◼   ► And Apple could argue very specific points here.

01:07:34 ◼   ► And it may be that they have good reasons

01:07:37 ◼   ► for rejecting these that aren't inconsistent

01:07:40 ◼   ► with other approvals.

01:07:42 ◼   ► But from Margaret Vestager's perspective,

01:07:46 ◼   ► this, and from my perspective, honestly,

01:07:50 ◼   ► I'm open to hearing Apple's argument here,

01:07:51 ◼   ► but I feel like Apple broke the seal with this,

01:07:55 ◼   ► where notarization was supposed to,

01:07:58 ◼   ► and has on the Mac meant this all along.

01:08:00 ◼   ► When they did notarization on the Mac,

01:08:02 ◼   ► which you can turn off, but is on by default,

01:08:04 ◼   ► that it wants to see a notarized Mac app to launch it.

01:08:07 ◼   ► Everybody was like, "Oh, geez, they're gonna start approving

01:08:10 ◼   ► or disapproving Mac apps."

01:08:12 ◼   ► And Apple was like, "No, no, no, no, no,

01:08:13 ◼   ► we're not gonna do that."

01:08:14 ◼   ► With the notarization for the app marketplaces,

01:08:17 ◼   ► Apple said, "Well, we're gonna put more into it

01:08:19 ◼   ► than we do on the Mac.

01:08:20 ◼   ► There's gonna be more, you know,

01:08:21 ◼   ► standards are higher here 'cause this platform is secure

01:08:24 ◼   ► and we need to keep it secure."

01:08:26 ◼   ► But this is the moment where you look at it and you say,

01:08:28 ◼   ► "Oh, they have decided to do what they do with the App Store,

01:08:33 ◼   ► which is set some rules that are arbitrary,

01:08:36 ◼   ► enforce them arbitrarily,

01:08:38 ◼   ► and use the notarization process

01:08:41 ◼   ► as a de facto approval process."

01:08:45 ◼   ► And I don't know all of their arguments

01:08:48 ◼   ► that they will have to make about this,

01:08:50 ◼   ► but if I'm Margaret Vessiger,

01:08:52 ◼   ► I look at this and I think,

01:08:55 ◼   ► this is not what you're allowed to do.

01:08:58 ◼   ► Like, you are not allowed,

01:08:59 ◼   ► the point of having external marketplaces

01:09:02 ◼   ► is that they bypass your rules,

01:09:04 ◼   ► except for very specific cutouts for security.

01:09:08 ◼   ► And I would say,

01:09:10 ◼   ► I would approach Apple's arguments that these emulators

01:09:14 ◼   ► are rejected for security reasons

01:09:17 ◼   ► with a great deal of skepticism.

01:09:19 ◼   ► - This is, I did not expect this turn.

01:09:24 ◼   ► Maybe I should have. - No.

01:09:26 ◼   ► - Maybe I should have, but I did not expect it.

01:09:28 ◼   ► And as I said earlier,

01:09:31 ◼   ► like this is clearly a new development for them

01:09:33 ◼   ► because they had a lot of opportunities

01:09:36 ◼   ► over the last couple of weeks

01:09:37 ◼   ► to talk about this in their rollout.

01:09:38 ◼   ► But now all of a sudden, here we are.

01:09:40 ◼   ► - Yeah, this is, it's,

01:09:43 ◼   ► and the danger here, here's the other thing,

01:09:46 ◼   ► 'cause they, I'd like to dash this off as being,

01:09:49 ◼   ► oh yeah, well, somebody didn't get the memo,

01:09:51 ◼   ► but like they took months.

01:09:52 ◼   ► So clearly they had a whole discussion internally

01:09:55 ◼   ► about whether they should notarize this or not,

01:09:56 ◼   ► which I would argue is also not in the spirit of the DMA.

01:10:01 ◼   ► And then they decided they would use the hammer.

01:10:03 ◼   ► They would say, no, no, we're not approving this,

01:10:05 ◼   ► but for good reasons,

01:10:07 ◼   ► which is very much an apt gratitude

01:10:09 ◼   ► that they're now going to apply to this.

01:10:11 ◼   ► So it's a specific act that they're performing here.

01:10:17 ◼   ► And as with so much that they've done,

01:10:20 ◼   ► I look at it and think, you, by doing this,

01:10:25 ◼   ► you risk making this much worse for yourself,

01:10:29 ◼   ► not just in terms of fines,

01:10:31 ◼   ► but in terms of you're calling the EC on how you,

01:10:36 ◼   ► how they interpret what you're allowed to do

01:10:39 ◼   ► with notarization.

01:10:40 ◼   ► And the result might be something you don't like, Apple.

01:10:44 ◼   ► The result might be, you decided to draw a line

01:10:46 ◼   ► right here, which is emulators of old PCs.

01:10:49 ◼   ► Like who cares?

01:10:52 ◼   ► Who really cares?

01:10:54 ◼   ► - What is the difference between old PCs and Game Boys?

01:10:57 ◼   ► Like what's the actual difference?

01:11:00 ◼   ► - So if like, was this worth it?

01:11:04 ◼   ► Because if the EC doesn't think you have a leg to stand on

01:11:09 ◼   ► with your security complaints about this,

01:11:14 ◼   ► they may make it clear about what they mean

01:11:17 ◼   ► by allowing things in for security via notarization,

01:11:21 ◼   ► and it may handcuff you so that something else comes along

01:11:24 ◼   ► that you actually are concerned about,

01:11:27 ◼   ► and you may not be able to reject it

01:11:30 ◼   ► because the rules have narrowed.

01:11:32 ◼   ► Your behavior may have made it worse for you in the future.

01:11:36 ◼   ► And this is something that a lot of Apple's behavior

01:11:39 ◼   ► makes me wonder if it is aware of that concept, right?

01:11:44 ◼   ► The idea that you're making it worse for yourself,

01:11:47 ◼   ► because they're like, "No, we're gonna fight tooth and nail."

01:11:48 ◼   ► And it's like, you know, if you'd gone along,

01:11:50 ◼   ► you might've ended up in a better place,

01:11:52 ◼   ► but like, "No, we're gonna fight a tooth and nail."

01:11:53 ◼   ► All right, it's your funeral, but we'll see.

01:11:57 ◼   ► Like again, I'm open to the idea

01:11:59 ◼   ► that there's some very specific things with UTM and IDOS

01:12:02 ◼   ► that the apps are doing that is beyond

01:12:06 ◼   ► what the other emulators have,

01:12:10 ◼   ► and that Apple thinks it's a security thing,

01:12:12 ◼   ► but even there, even there,

01:12:15 ◼   ► they're allowing the European Commission to come in and say,

01:12:19 ◼   ► "Yeah, that's not good enough," right?

01:12:21 ◼   ► Like the EC, if this is about like a just-in-time compiler,

01:12:24 ◼   ► like a JIT, the EC could just come in and say,

01:12:29 ◼   ► "No, JITs are allowed."

01:12:31 ◼   ► And then what does Apple do?

01:12:33 ◼   ► I mean, Apple can't say no, or they'll get fined.

01:12:36 ◼   ► So why are you bringing this on yourself?

01:12:39 ◼   ► It's so stupid, and it really undermines the whole concept

01:12:42 ◼   ► that notarization is supposed to be kind of a fair deal,

01:12:46 ◼   ► where you're like, "You're outside the store,

01:12:47 ◼   ► so we're really only gonna be,

01:12:49 ◼   ► we're like almost independent,

01:12:51 ◼   ► and we're not doing this to enforce Apple's policies.

01:12:54 ◼   ► We're just trying to keep everybody safe."

01:12:56 ◼   ► And instead, it's like all of the safety things

01:13:01 ◼   ► that are really there to allow Apple to exert control

01:13:05 ◼   ► have gotten imported into notarization.

01:13:07 ◼   ► It is a real shame.

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01:14:56 ◼   ► So considering what we were talking about earlier on,

01:15:01 ◼   ► home screen tinting,

01:15:02 ◼   ► and there's obviously more home screen optimization

01:15:05 ◼   ► coming to the iPhone,

01:15:07 ◼   ► I wanted to get a little like check-in

01:15:10 ◼   ► and like a baseline set right now

01:15:13 ◼   ► of how our home screens are looking.

01:15:15 ◼   ► - Can I just say it, Mike?

01:15:17 ◼   ► - Yes.

01:15:18 ◼   ► - Summer of fun!

01:15:19 ◼   ► - Summer of fun!

01:15:20 ◼   ► Although there was more news breaking in this episode

01:15:22 ◼   ► than we expected, but nevertheless.

01:15:25 ◼   ► - But here we are at the, just to be clear,

01:15:27 ◼   ► the summer of fun means we're gonna do stuff like this,

01:15:30 ◼   ► just kind of, you know, unusual.

01:15:32 ◼   ► So it's our home screen.

01:15:33 ◼   ► So home screen, it's not a competition,

01:15:36 ◼   ► it's not a challenge, it's not a roast probably.

01:15:38 ◼   ► - No, well, I mean, it might be, it depends.

01:15:40 ◼   ► Summer of fun stuff, we usually, you know,

01:15:42 ◼   ► we need topics who bring these things in.

01:15:43 ◼   ► How, and we actually didn't today.

01:15:45 ◼   ► There was more news and other stuff we could've spoken about,

01:15:48 ◼   ► but we just started the summer of fun.

01:15:50 ◼   ► So I felt like we had to start

01:15:51 ◼   ► with a summer of fun like topic.

01:15:53 ◼   ► So here we are.

01:15:54 ◼   ► - Yeah, here we are.

01:15:55 ◼   ► - So I'm gonna take a look at your home screen first.

01:15:59 ◼   ► - All right.

01:16:00 ◼   ► - Do you want to take me on a tour or anything?

01:16:03 ◼   ► - Yeah, just thinking about where we are

01:16:05 ◼   ► and where we might go with iOS 18.

01:16:08 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:16:10 ◼   ► - Yeah, sure.

01:16:11 ◼   ► So in terms of apps,

01:16:13 ◼   ► and I know we've talked about this before,

01:16:14 ◼   ► it hasn't changed a lot.

01:16:15 ◼   ► At the bottom, I have Overcast, Safari,

01:16:17 ◼   ► Fantastic Cal, and Slack in a doc.

01:16:22 ◼   ► Although the doc doesn't really matter

01:16:23 ◼   ► other than they're more reachable

01:16:25 ◼   ► because I only have one page.

01:16:27 ◼   ► - Yeah, just one, that's interesting.

01:16:28 ◼   ► Just one screen.

01:16:29 ◼   ► - Yeah, I'm big search boy.

01:16:33 ◼   ► Like if it's not there,

01:16:34 ◼   ► sometimes I have to realize,

01:16:35 ◼   ► oh, that app is on the home screen.

01:16:36 ◼   ► I don't need to search for it.

01:16:37 ◼   ► 'Cause I just, I do a lot of that.

01:16:39 ◼   ► - Do you not think though,

01:16:40 ◼   ► like you could have a whole widget page over there?

01:16:43 ◼   ► You know, you could have a bunch of widgets

01:16:45 ◼   ► on another page showing you some fun info.

01:16:47 ◼   ► - Like even in the Today View, I could have widgets.

01:16:49 ◼   ► - You could, you could.

01:16:50 ◼   ► You could have them anywhere you like.

01:16:52 ◼   ► - I do have a couple of widgets in the Today View.

01:16:55 ◼   ► I have thought about it.

01:16:58 ◼   ► In particular, like on a vacation or something,

01:17:00 ◼   ► or on a trip, I might add them,

01:17:03 ◼   ► but I tend to not otherwise.

01:17:06 ◼   ► If I was motivated, I would do that.

01:17:11 ◼   ► But I have not been motivated.

01:17:12 ◼   ► I probably just put them in the Today View, right?

01:17:13 ◼   ► Because then I don't even need to add another page.

01:17:17 ◼   ► 'Cause I just swipe the other way.

01:17:18 ◼   ► 'Cause it doesn't really matter, right?

01:17:20 ◼   ► At that point, if you only have one page,

01:17:21 ◼   ► swiping left or right doesn't matter.

01:17:23 ◼   ► You're just going to a page with widgets.

01:17:26 ◼   ► Anyway, so those are my doc apps.

01:17:29 ◼   ► And then I have on my phone, I have the MLB app,

01:17:34 ◼   ► 'cause I'm a baseball fan,

01:17:35 ◼   ► and checking on the scores and bring up live activities.

01:17:39 ◼   ► - Not Apple Sports or anything like that?

01:17:41 ◼   ► You're not?

01:17:42 ◼   ► - No.

01:17:43 ◼   ► - No?

01:17:44 ◼   ► - No.

01:17:45 ◼   ► - What does the MLB app give you that sports doesn't?

01:17:48 ◼   ► - Well, I can listen.

01:17:52 ◼   ► I can put on audio.

01:17:53 ◼   ► - Okay, that's pretty big.

01:17:54 ◼   ► (laughs)

01:17:56 ◼   ► - And I can put on video,

01:17:56 ◼   ► but I mostly don't do that on my iPhone.

01:17:58 ◼   ► But I can put on the game, like the radio broadcast.

01:18:01 ◼   ► Plus it's got box scores.

01:18:02 ◼   ► It's got lots more detail than the Apple Sports app has.

01:18:06 ◼   ► - Okay, yeah, that makes sense.

01:18:08 ◼   ► - I have Slack on my doc,

01:18:10 ◼   ► but I have Discord on my home screen.

01:18:12 ◼   ► Didn't used to,

01:18:13 ◼   ► but all our membership communities are in Discord now.

01:18:16 ◼   ► I have three of them.

01:18:19 ◼   ► Four of them, if you count,

01:18:20 ◼   ► Twit actually, where I'm only on there though,

01:18:22 ◼   ► during the live show.

01:18:24 ◼   ► But incomparable in six colors and relay.

01:18:27 ◼   ► So I've got Discord everywhere now.

01:18:30 ◼   ► Didn't used to.

01:18:32 ◼   ► Carrot is my weather app that's on my home screen.

01:18:37 ◼   ► Other weather apps are available,

01:18:42 ◼   ► but Carrot is the one that I have.

01:18:43 ◼   ► I've got a little orange icon.

01:18:44 ◼   ► Little aesthetic going there.

01:18:47 ◼   ► I chose a custom icon for Carrot.

01:18:49 ◼   ► It's an orange one.

01:18:50 ◼   ► - Is that for giants?

01:18:51 ◼   ► 'Cause they're giants?

01:18:52 ◼   ► - Mm, mostly 'cause I like orange.

01:18:55 ◼   ► - Okay.

01:18:56 ◼   ► - It's a nice color.

01:18:58 ◼   ► It could be for the giants too.

01:18:59 ◼   ► - Let's go giants.

01:19:00 ◼   ► - They're orange.

01:19:00 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:19:01 ◼   ► - Yeah, sure.

01:19:02 ◼   ► I mean, I have the overcast in the light color too,

01:19:04 ◼   ► 'cause I like the orange.

01:19:06 ◼   ► - Well, you can actually set,

01:19:08 ◼   ► you can choose.

01:19:09 ◼   ► So you can choose dark or light

01:19:11 ◼   ► and then also choose the icon,

01:19:12 ◼   ► which I've done.

01:19:14 ◼   ► - Yes, I choose orange.

01:19:16 ◼   ► - The iconic icon.

01:19:17 ◼   ► - It's beautiful.

01:19:18 ◼   ► - I gotta ask about the iRobot app.

01:19:20 ◼   ► I gotta ask about iRobot.

01:19:21 ◼   ► - Just let me go camera, music, notes,

01:19:25 ◼   ► settings, photos, messages, maps, phone.

01:19:30 ◼   ► - Big stock boy.

01:19:33 ◼   ► - Mail and iRobot.

01:19:36 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:19:37 ◼   ► We've got a lot of stock apps.

01:19:39 ◼   ► Actually, before we get to iRobot, settings?

01:19:41 ◼   ► - Okay.

01:19:41 ◼   ► Well, yeah, man.

01:19:44 ◼   ► - What do you mean, well, yeah, man?

01:19:45 ◼   ► How often are you in settings?

01:19:47 ◼   ► - I'm changing settings all the time.

01:19:49 ◼   ► I mean, I don't have it in my dock.

01:19:50 ◼   ► I'm not a monster.

01:19:51 ◼   ► - How often do you change in settings

01:19:53 ◼   ► and what are you changing?

01:19:54 ◼   ► - It's, you know, if I need to get on,

01:19:57 ◼   ► some of this is probably control centerable

01:19:59 ◼   ► and I'm just not doing it there.

01:20:00 ◼   ► - Yes, it really is.

01:20:01 ◼   ► It really, really is.

01:20:03 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:20:04 ◼   ► - You're like, oh, if you turn off the wifi,

01:20:06 ◼   ► I gotta go to settings.

01:20:07 ◼   ► - Well, no, but it's like I gotta find the new wifi

01:20:09 ◼   ► and I can swipe down and do that.

01:20:10 ◼   ► Or I, you know, I don't know.

01:20:11 ◼   ► - Is that a lot?

01:20:12 ◼   ► Is that a lot you're dealing with?

01:20:13 ◼   ► - I find myself going to settings enough

01:20:18 ◼   ► and my home screen is not full, right?

01:20:19 ◼   ► I find myself going to settings enough

01:20:21 ◼   ► that I don't wanna pull down and type S-E-T and then tap.

01:20:25 ◼   ► - Sure, sure, sure.

01:20:26 ◼   ► - I can just tap on settings.

01:20:27 ◼   ► Do I use it a lot?

01:20:28 ◼   ► Probably not, but enough, enough that it makes me,

01:20:33 ◼   ► also honestly, there's a lot of,

01:20:35 ◼   ► hey Jason, can you do this thing on the iPhone?

01:20:37 ◼   ► I'm like, all right, let me see where that is in settings.

01:20:39 ◼   ► It's this and this and this.

01:20:40 ◼   ► I might tell somebody you go here and then here

01:20:42 ◼   ► and then here and then you do.

01:20:43 ◼   ► - I have now realized that there is no home screen topic

01:20:46 ◼   ► that doesn't become a roast.

01:20:48 ◼   ► Like, I feel like that's just-

01:20:49 ◼   ► - It's true.

01:20:50 ◼   ► I was trying to say it might not be a roast as a suggestion.

01:20:52 ◼   ► - There's no way it doesn't become one.

01:20:53 ◼   ► - No, it doesn't.

01:20:54 ◼   ► - There's no way it doesn't become one.

01:20:55 ◼   ► - Explain yourself.

01:20:56 ◼   ► Settings, I don't know.

01:20:57 ◼   ► I find it useful.

01:20:58 ◼   ► It would not be there.

01:20:59 ◼   ► I've removed a lot of things from my home screen

01:21:02 ◼   ► and it's still there,

01:21:03 ◼   ► which means that I must hit it enough for it to matter.

01:21:06 ◼   ► - Sure.

01:21:07 ◼   ► Okay.

01:21:09 ◼   ► - What other questions do you have?

01:21:10 ◼   ► - iRobot, I feel like I cut you off of iRobot.

01:21:12 ◼   ► Are you like often starting the rumor manually?

01:21:18 ◼   ► - You know, it's actually more about stopping the Roomba.

01:21:22 ◼   ► - Okay.

01:21:23 ◼   ► - But yeah, so the fact is,

01:21:25 ◼   ► sometimes the Roomba is set to go most days at,

01:21:29 ◼   ► I think one or two in the afternoon.

01:21:32 ◼   ► And sometimes I, 'cause I work at home, right?

01:21:36 ◼   ► Sometimes I'm doing stuff, I'm watching TV,

01:21:38 ◼   ► I'm working, whatever.

01:21:39 ◼   ► If I'm in the garage, it's okay.

01:21:41 ◼   ► Just happened where Juneteenth was Wednesday.

01:21:45 ◼   ► So Lauren had it off and the robot started to go

01:21:48 ◼   ► and I was able to very quickly say, no robot, go home.

01:21:50 ◼   ► Right?

01:21:51 ◼   ► So some of it is just, I can't do this right now

01:21:55 ◼   ► and I'll pause it or I'll send it home.

01:21:58 ◼   ► Also, it happens sometimes where I'll notice

01:22:02 ◼   ► like cat litter on the hallway carpet

01:22:04 ◼   ► and I'll just be like, send the robot to do the hallway

01:22:07 ◼   ► because there's cat litter that came out of the cat box.

01:22:10 ◼   ► Or we'll be leaving for curling and I'll say,

01:22:13 ◼   ► and Lauren will say, can you run the robot?

01:22:15 ◼   ► And I'll give it a full house run as we leave

01:22:17 ◼   ► so that while we're gone,

01:22:18 ◼   ► the robot is going around and doing its thing.

01:22:21 ◼   ► So I have enough robot control.

01:22:24 ◼   ► Like, could it be replaced with like a widget

01:22:27 ◼   ► or a control center item?

01:22:29 ◼   ► Oh, right down.

01:22:30 ◼   ► Well, I mean, I would hope so.

01:22:32 ◼   ► 'Cause there's only really basic, I don't do a lot of,

01:22:35 ◼   ► oh, let's look at the map or let's change the schedule.

01:22:38 ◼   ► It's not a lot of that.

01:22:39 ◼   ► It's a lot of start or stop that I'm doing

01:22:42 ◼   ► that I could probably do something else.

01:22:45 ◼   ► It might be in home because like one of the home improvements

01:22:49 ◼   ► was support for robot vacuums,

01:22:50 ◼   ► but it does require iRobot doing that.

01:22:54 ◼   ► But they could also just add a control center widget

01:22:57 ◼   ► from the iOS 18 to do it.

01:22:58 ◼   ► Start and stop.

01:22:59 ◼   ► But for now, that's why iRobot is there.

01:23:01 ◼   ► Do I spend a lot of time on my phone going,