ATP

00:00:00 ◼   ► - So this will be a bit of an audio risk for me today.

00:00:03 ◼   ► - Oh no, always a great way to start the show.

00:00:05 ◼   ► Are we all recording?

00:00:06 ◼   ► 'Cause I only started recording during pre-flight,

00:00:08 ◼   ► so are we all recording?

00:00:09 ◼   ► - Yes, that's okay.

00:00:10 ◼   ► We'll eliminate that category of risk.

00:00:13 ◼   ► - Well, my dog is in the room, so there's a second risk.

00:00:15 ◼   ► - All right, well, it's a third risk 'cause I have two,

00:00:17 ◼   ► so risk number one for me is,

00:00:19 ◼   ► in case you haven't heard in my voice yet,

00:00:22 ◼   ► my voice is kind of shot.

00:00:24 ◼   ► So it turns out, in the spring,

00:00:26 ◼   ► my entire head filled with pollen.

00:00:28 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:00:29 ◼   ► - Me both.

00:00:30 ◼   ► - I assume it's allergies, I think it's allergies,

00:00:32 ◼   ► I could be sick, but it feels more like very, very,

00:00:35 ◼   ► very severe pollen and everything.

00:00:37 ◼   ► I also live in Dust House right now,

00:00:40 ◼   ► because not only is my house filled with pollen,

00:00:43 ◼   ► but it's also still being partially constructed,

00:00:46 ◼   ► and so there is some construction happening,

00:00:49 ◼   ► actually literally right now,

00:00:51 ◼   ► and the funny thing is, this is the morning

00:00:54 ◼   ► that they're working on the room directly behind me.

00:00:57 ◼   ► - Cool.

00:00:58 ◼   ► - There was no one here yesterday.

00:00:59 ◼   ► There's, the room behind me has not been worked on in weeks,

00:01:03 ◼   ► but today is the day they're working on the room behind me.

00:01:06 ◼   ► So we have, from my end, the risk of me just sounding

00:01:10 ◼   ► like this the whole episode, which is not amazing,

00:01:13 ◼   ► that's a pretty sure thing.

00:01:15 ◼   ► We also have behind me grinders, saws, people talking,

00:01:19 ◼   ► people possibly dropping things,

00:01:21 ◼   ► so it's gonna be an interesting audio experiment over here,

00:01:26 ◼   ► but I assure you listeners, this normally is not the time

00:01:29 ◼   ► that we record, and I normally don't sound this bad,

00:01:30 ◼   ► so sorry for this one episode where it's gonna sound

00:01:33 ◼   ► a little rough on my end, and hopefully John's dog

00:01:35 ◼   ► will cover up most of the flaws.

00:01:37 ◼   ► - I mean, I gotta say, you don't sound bad to me.

00:01:39 ◼   ► You sound ever so slightly needs me,

00:01:41 ◼   ► ever the tiniest bit. - Yeah, a little tiny,

00:01:42 ◼   ► but stuffy, tiny.

00:01:43 ◼   ► - Oh, I should also disclose that this is also

00:01:46 ◼   ► a new audio environment, because I'm in my new office

00:01:50 ◼   ► in the new house, and it's still partially set up,

00:01:52 ◼   ► but it's a new desk, new audio wiring, new audio device,

00:01:55 ◼   ► and new sound panels behind me that I hung up 12 hours ago,

00:01:58 ◼   ► so it's kind of an untested situation.

00:02:03 ◼   ► - Nothing like saying screw it, we'll do it live.

00:02:05 ◼   ► - Yeah. - Oh, yeah, yeah.

00:02:07 ◼   ► But I will say, though, that John, you sound better

00:02:09 ◼   ► than you did the last time we recorded at roughly this hour,

00:02:12 ◼   ► because last time we did this,

00:02:14 ◼   ► I don't recall what episode it was,

00:02:15 ◼   ► but last time we did this, it sounded like you had rolled

00:02:17 ◼   ► out of bed and then gone immediately

00:02:19 ◼   ► in front of the microphone.

00:02:20 ◼   ► Now you sound mostly like John to me.

00:02:22 ◼   ► - Yeah, I've been up for a few hours.

00:02:24 ◼   ► I think I had up for a few hours last time, too.

00:02:26 ◼   ► Maybe it's 'cause it was closer to winter

00:02:27 ◼   ► and it was dark, and I don't know, who knows?

00:02:29 ◼   ► Anyway, I'll survive.

00:02:31 ◼   ► - Oh, also, I have another, a new update

00:02:34 ◼   ► and a benefit, actually.

00:02:35 ◼   ► I've discovered an undocumented benefit

00:02:37 ◼   ► to having a pollen-colored car.

00:02:40 ◼   ► You can't tell when my car's covered in pollen.

00:02:42 ◼   ► Now, in pollen season, my car turns yellow?

00:02:44 ◼   ► Guess what, it's already yellow.

00:02:45 ◼   ► It looks like nothing.

00:02:48 ◼   ► People talk about how, oh, you get a black car

00:02:50 ◼   ► to hide dirt or whatever.

00:02:52 ◼   ► - I don't think anyone says that about a black car.

00:02:53 ◼   ► - Yeah, no, it's quite the opposite about black cars,

00:02:55 ◼   ► but I'm with you in principle, though.

00:02:57 ◼   ► - Yeah, right, right.

00:02:57 ◼   ► But most of those things are total BS

00:03:00 ◼   ► 'cause every car shows every kind of dirt.

00:03:02 ◼   ► However, a pollen-colored car does not show pollen.

00:03:05 ◼   ► It's glorious.

00:03:05 ◼   ► (electronic beeping)

00:03:07 ◼   ► - Hey, so this is your last chance.

00:03:10 ◼   ► This is your last chance.

00:03:11 ◼   ► I know you're probably listening to this episode

00:03:13 ◼   ► a little earlier in the week than normal.

00:03:16 ◼   ► We recorded it way earlier than normal,

00:03:18 ◼   ► and I also apparently cannot pronounce words anymore,

00:03:20 ◼   ► but nevertheless, it is the last time

00:03:24 ◼   ► we will tell you on the show that the ATP Store is back.

00:03:28 ◼   ► Go to ATP.fm/store.

00:03:30 ◼   ► Seriously, we are not gonna tell you on the program again.

00:03:33 ◼   ► You will probably see this on Mastodon.

00:03:35 ◼   ► You'll probably see it on Threads,

00:03:37 ◼   ► but you will not hear it again.

00:03:39 ◼   ► This is your last chance.

00:03:40 ◼   ► The store closes Sunday the 28th of April.

00:03:45 ◼   ► I forget what time.

00:03:46 ◼   ► It doesn't matter because you're not gonna order on Sunday

00:03:48 ◼   ► because you're gonna be careful,

00:03:49 ◼   ► and you're gonna order right now,

00:03:51 ◼   ► or at the very least, before Sunday the 28th.

00:03:53 ◼   ► You'll order on Saturday the 27th at the very latest.

00:03:57 ◼   ► And what are you gonna order?

00:03:58 ◼   ► You're gonna order all sorts of sweet new merch

00:04:01 ◼   ► from ATP.fm/store.

00:04:02 ◼   ► We've got ATP windows in both color and monochrome.

00:04:06 ◼   ► We've got ATP graffiti.

00:04:08 ◼   ► We've brought back the ATP sport or performance shirt.

00:04:11 ◼   ► We've got monochrome Pro Max.

00:04:13 ◼   ► We've got six colors.

00:04:14 ◼   ► We've got the OG.

00:04:15 ◼   ► We've got a hoodie.

00:04:16 ◼   ► We've got the polo.

00:04:16 ◼   ► We've got the hat.

00:04:17 ◼   ► We don't have glasses anymore.

00:04:18 ◼   ► We finally sold out of glasses,

00:04:19 ◼   ► but we've got everything else.

00:04:20 ◼   ► So, ATP.fm/store, this is your last chance.

00:04:25 ◼   ► John, please tell them now is your last chance.

00:04:28 ◼   ► This is the time.

00:04:29 ◼   ► What should they buy?

00:04:30 ◼   ► - I mean, I think you should buy one of the new shirts

00:04:32 ◼   ► 'cause people tend to like the new ones,

00:04:34 ◼   ► but if you have some old ones that you've been wearing

00:04:36 ◼   ► and you haven't looked in a while,

00:04:38 ◼   ► check to see if they're threadbare.

00:04:39 ◼   ► You know, like every five years, every five, 10 years,

00:04:43 ◼   ► it's good to replace T-shirts

00:04:44 ◼   ► so they don't get too ratty looking.

00:04:45 ◼   ► So, you know, replace that ATP logo shirt

00:04:48 ◼   ► that you bought 10 years ago,

00:04:50 ◼   ► which I think is a thing that could have happened.

00:04:53 ◼   ► And hey, maybe you want a long sleeve this time

00:04:55 ◼   ► or a sweatshirt or a tank top.

00:04:56 ◼   ► We've got lots of varieties.

00:04:58 ◼   ► And yeah, this is the last time

00:05:00 ◼   ► you'll hear us talk about it on the show

00:05:02 ◼   ► because by the next time we record, the sale will be over.

00:05:05 ◼   ► So this is literally your last chance.

00:05:07 ◼   ► Do not wait.

00:05:08 ◼   ► Do not forget, as I have done in the past.

00:05:11 ◼   ► Just do it now.

00:05:12 ◼   ► Or at the very least, hold down the power button

00:05:14 ◼   ► on your phone and say, "Hey, Dingus,

00:05:16 ◼   ► "remind me to buy something from the ATP store

00:05:18 ◼   ► "tomorrow at 9 a.m." or whatever.

00:05:19 ◼   ► - Yep, yep, please do, because I kid you not every time,

00:05:23 ◼   ► oh no, it was me, I'm the one, I forgot.

00:05:25 ◼   ► Don't be that person.

00:05:27 ◼   ► Do it now, ATP.fm/store.

00:05:29 ◼   ► And members, remember,

00:05:31 ◼   ► because I know you're probably listening to me

00:05:33 ◼   ► as you're ordering right now

00:05:34 ◼   ► because you're good, kind people,

00:05:36 ◼   ► but if you're a member, remember that on the 5th of November,

00:05:40 ◼   ► no wait, that's not right.

00:05:41 ◼   ► Remember that you can go to ATP.fm/member

00:05:44 ◼   ► and get your bespoke coupon code for 15% off sales,

00:05:47 ◼   ► time-limited sales like this one.

00:05:49 ◼   ► So ATP.fm/store and go check out the merch.

00:05:53 ◼   ► This is your last chance.

00:05:54 ◼   ► Order by Saturday the 27th,

00:05:56 ◼   ► even though you can really do it on the 28th.

00:05:57 ◼   ► We're not gonna say that.

00:05:58 ◼   ► So the Saturday the 27th, that's your deadline.

00:06:02 ◼   ► Thank you so much.

00:06:03 ◼   ► Let's do some follow-up.

00:06:04 ◼   ► Max Bucknell writes, "I can't believe John

00:06:06 ◼   ► "talked about case sensitivity

00:06:08 ◼   ► "and mounting a separate disk image

00:06:09 ◼   ► "without talking about APFS volumes,

00:06:12 ◼   ► "which make this so much more straightforward.

00:06:14 ◼   ► "I agree with your takes on Unicode normalization,

00:06:16 ◼   ► "but the reality is that if you were deploying code to Linux,

00:06:19 ◼   ► "your local setup should match that behavior

00:06:21 ◼   ► "as much as possible.

00:06:22 ◼   ► "I've watched many a junior on my team

00:06:24 ◼   ► "hit this exact issue with a file import

00:06:26 ◼   ► "and walk them through the steps

00:06:28 ◼   ► "to mount their work in a separate volume.

00:06:30 ◼   ► "Frustratingly, though, our iOS app refuses

00:06:33 ◼   ► "to build on those volumes because library developers

00:06:35 ◼   ► "have been building on case-insensitive file systems

00:06:37 ◼   ► "for three decades, as you said.

00:06:39 ◼   ► "PS, you are going to hear from all of the United Kingdom

00:06:42 ◼   ► "about your pronunciation of address bar."

00:06:44 ◼   ► Address bar?

00:06:45 ◼   ► - Yeah, we didn't hear from anybody on that,

00:06:46 ◼   ► but we did hear from a couple people about this thing.

00:06:49 ◼   ► So what he's talking about is the ability of APFS

00:06:53 ◼   ► to very easily create new volumes on the same disk,

00:06:57 ◼   ► on the same storage group, whatever the hell they call it.

00:07:01 ◼   ► We've talked about this before,

00:07:02 ◼   ► but if you haven't visited disk utility in ages,

00:07:05 ◼   ► you can get a brand new disk out of the box,

00:07:07 ◼   ► like a one terabyte disk,

00:07:08 ◼   ► and you can open it in disk utility,

00:07:10 ◼   ► and you format it as a one terabyte disk,

00:07:12 ◼   ► and then you can add a second one terabyte volume,

00:07:14 ◼   ► and a third one terabyte volume,

00:07:16 ◼   ► and a fourth one terabyte volume.

00:07:17 ◼   ► You can keep adding one terabyte volumes

00:07:18 ◼   ► till the cows come home, and you're like,

00:07:20 ◼   ► "How does that work?

00:07:21 ◼   ► "The disk is only one terabyte.

00:07:22 ◼   ► "How can I add multiple one terabyte volumes?"

00:07:23 ◼   ► Well, they share the space,

00:07:25 ◼   ► and so whoever allocates that space and uses it gets it,

00:07:29 ◼   ► and obviously when the one terabyte of space is gone,

00:07:31 ◼   ► then the disk is full,

00:07:33 ◼   ► but every single one of those volumes

00:07:34 ◼   ► thinks it has the full one terabyte,

00:07:36 ◼   ► and it's just whoever grabs the space first gets it.

00:07:38 ◼   ► You can also limit volumes to be smaller than that.

00:07:41 ◼   ► You can say, "Okay, well, I want to create a volume

00:07:43 ◼   ► "on this one terabyte disk that's half a terabyte,

00:07:46 ◼   ► "and then I want to create another one

00:07:47 ◼   ► "that's a quarter of a terabyte,

00:07:48 ◼   ► "and then I want to create another one

00:07:49 ◼   ► "that's a full terabyte."

00:07:50 ◼   ► Again, they're all sharing space

00:07:52 ◼   ► up to whatever the configured limit is.

00:07:54 ◼   ► So what Max is saying is,

00:07:56 ◼   ► "Hey, if you want a case-sensitive APFS volume,

00:07:58 ◼   ► "just create another volume on your existing APFS disk.

00:08:02 ◼   ► "Don't worry if your current volume is the size of the disk,

00:08:05 ◼   ► "but I already have a one terabyte volume

00:08:06 ◼   ► "on one terabyte disk.

00:08:07 ◼   ► "How can I create another volume?"

00:08:08 ◼   ► Well, like I said,

00:08:09 ◼   ► you can create as many volumes as you want,

00:08:11 ◼   ► and they'll all just share the space,

00:08:12 ◼   ► and that second volume you create can be case-sensitive.

00:08:15 ◼   ► So yeah, you can have the full space

00:08:18 ◼   ► or give it some amount of limited space.

00:08:20 ◼   ► Now, the reason I am not as big a fan of this approach,

00:08:24 ◼   ► well, there's two reasons.

00:08:25 ◼   ► One is that, call it superstition,

00:08:29 ◼   ► but when you create new volumes on APFS,

00:08:32 ◼   ► like you're messing with some essential structures

00:08:34 ◼   ► of the partition map and all or whatever,

00:08:38 ◼   ► and although it is lightweight and easy to do and fast,

00:08:42 ◼   ► if something is going to go terribly wrong with your disk,

00:08:45 ◼   ► especially if it's like your boot disk or whatever,

00:08:48 ◼   ► it's probably gonna happen when you're in disk utility

00:08:49 ◼   ► like adding and removing volumes.

00:08:51 ◼   ► So if you make it a habit of doing this,

00:08:53 ◼   ► I feel like you're tempting fate

00:08:54 ◼   ► for them to be some weird bug or weird problem

00:08:59 ◼   ► with your volume and just screws everything up.

00:09:02 ◼   ► That said, if you know, like Max was saying,

00:09:05 ◼   ► that as part of your work,

00:09:06 ◼   ► you're just always gonna need a case-sensitive volume,

00:09:08 ◼   ► yes, by all means do this.

00:09:09 ◼   ► It's better than a disk image.

00:09:10 ◼   ► I'm not saying like you're gonna create it.

00:09:11 ◼   ► It's just gonna be there forever.

00:09:12 ◼   ► Just make it, make it once, no problem, and just use it.

00:09:16 ◼   ► But if you're constantly creating

00:09:17 ◼   ► and destroying tiny little case-sensitive volumes,

00:09:19 ◼   ► I would still suggest maybe disk images

00:09:21 ◼   ► are the slightly more conservative approach,

00:09:24 ◼   ► maybe also a little bit more annoying,

00:09:25 ◼   ► although it depends if you have volumes

00:09:27 ◼   ► mounted on your desktop and you're sick of seeing

00:09:28 ◼   ► all these volumes mount all the time

00:09:30 ◼   ► and you can mess with etcfs tab

00:09:33 ◼   ► to make it so they don't auto mount

00:09:34 ◼   ► and then you're using a remounting,

00:09:35 ◼   ► like it depends on what you find annoying.

00:09:37 ◼   ► But yeah, it's good to point out this approach.

00:09:39 ◼   ► I am superstitious about it.

00:09:41 ◼   ► Maybe I've been burned by too many years of HFS and HFS+.

00:09:45 ◼   ► But I don't, every time I go into disk utility

00:09:47 ◼   ► and start messing with like the partition map of my drive,

00:09:49 ◼   ► I get a little bit scared,

00:09:50 ◼   ► so I wouldn't make a habit of it.

00:09:51 ◼   ► But if you want a permanent one, this is a great solution.

00:09:54 ◼   ► And like I said, you can limit the space.

00:09:56 ◼   ► So you can say, look, case-sensitive APFS,

00:09:59 ◼   ► you only get to use 100 gigabytes or whatever

00:10:02 ◼   ► of my one terabyte disk.

00:10:03 ◼   ► And remember, that's not actually used until

00:10:06 ◼   ► something goes on a disk to use that space.

00:10:08 ◼   ► So space sharing, it's why you can never tell

00:10:11 ◼   ► how much free space there is in anything in the Finder,

00:10:13 ◼   ► because it's a feature of APFS, not a bug.

00:10:16 ◼   ► - Is it though?

00:10:16 ◼   ► I mean, I know what you're saying, but is it though?

00:10:19 ◼   ► - That's the thing that people complain about.

00:10:20 ◼   ► They're like, there's no actual good solution.

00:10:23 ◼   ► Like, I mean, you just described,

00:10:24 ◼   ► like what if you have a terabyte disk

00:10:25 ◼   ► and you have five one terabyte volumes on it

00:10:27 ◼   ► and they're all sharing space.

00:10:28 ◼   ► That's a great feature.

00:10:29 ◼   ► Now, how do you explain when those disks fill up, right?

00:10:32 ◼   ► Like, how does the Finder say something?

00:10:33 ◼   ► You would have to have like a paragraph,

00:10:34 ◼   ► like look, this disk is full.

00:10:37 ◼   ► And I know it's a one terabyte, this volume is full.

00:10:39 ◼   ► And I know it's a one terabyte volume

00:10:41 ◼   ► and it's only got 200 megabytes on it.

00:10:43 ◼   ► But I want you to know that there are a bunch

00:10:44 ◼   ► of other volumes on that same one terabyte hardware disk

00:10:47 ◼   ► that are using that space.

00:10:48 ◼   ► So that's why your thing is full,

00:10:49 ◼   ► even though it's not anywhere close to the rated capacity.

00:10:52 ◼   ► It's very confusing.

00:10:54 ◼   ► - AD writes, from the handwriting sample,

00:10:56 ◼   ► I wonder whether Casey's left-handed.

00:10:57 ◼   ► If yes, I would love to hear about the experience

00:10:59 ◼   ► of being left-handed.

00:11:00 ◼   ► Hardly hear anyone talk about it.

00:11:02 ◼   ► I am not.

00:11:03 ◼   ► I'm not entirely sure why that conclusion was reached.

00:11:05 ◼   ► I am completely useless with my left hand

00:11:07 ◼   ► in pretty much every measurable way.

00:11:10 ◼   ► My mom is the weird kind of ambidextrous

00:11:12 ◼   ► where she writes left-handed, but like eats right-handed.

00:11:15 ◼   ► I forget how, I think she throws right-handed,

00:11:18 ◼   ► but bats left-handed.

00:11:18 ◼   ► I don't know, it's very unusual.

00:11:20 ◼   ► But yeah, I'm right-handed, I just have crappy handwriting.

00:11:23 ◼   ► But we also got some other feedback.

00:11:25 ◼   ► Jon, do you wanna handle that?

00:11:27 ◼   ► - Yeah, my handwriting sample, I tried to write

00:11:30 ◼   ► that sentence that has all the letters

00:11:31 ◼   ► in the English language in it,

00:11:32 ◼   ► and I forgot that it's, what is it,

00:11:34 ◼   ► Quick Brown Fox jumps with an S,

00:11:37 ◼   ► not the Quick Brown Fox jumped past tense ED.

00:11:40 ◼   ► So I apologize for not including a lowercase S

00:11:43 ◼   ► in my writing sample.

00:11:44 ◼   ► Somehow you'll have to survive.

00:11:45 ◼   ► - Oh my God, that's what that was about?

00:11:47 ◼   ► I saw that feedback and I'm like,

00:11:48 ◼   ► what are they talking about?

00:11:49 ◼   ► Oh my God.

00:11:50 ◼   ► - It took me two or three tries before I realized, yep.

00:11:52 ◼   ► - Yeah, do you know the other, a couple other sentences?

00:11:54 ◼   ► I know there's a really short one that's terrible.

00:11:56 ◼   ► I don't remember what that one is, someone can Google it.

00:11:58 ◼   ► But the other sentences that use all the,

00:12:01 ◼   ► use all 26 characters?

00:12:03 ◼   ► - I do not.

00:12:04 ◼   ► - Yeah, nothing, you don't have a single one?

00:12:06 ◼   ► - No, Quick Brown Fox jumps over the lazy dog.

00:12:08 ◼   ► It's the only one I can think of.

00:12:09 ◼   ► - All right, yeah, no, I think there used to be examples

00:12:11 ◼   ► in Mac OS, there's like a webpage that comes up high

00:12:13 ◼   ► in Google search results that says,

00:12:15 ◼   ► here are the sentences that were used in Mac OS

00:12:17 ◼   ► for various times I remember.

00:12:18 ◼   ► And maybe that's why I know them,

00:12:19 ◼   ► because they were in wherever they were in Mac OS.

00:12:20 ◼   ► I don't know if they were in like the font,

00:12:22 ◼   ► like the thing showing you a sample of a font or whatever.

00:12:25 ◼   ► - The one I remember is how Razorback jumping frogs

00:12:29 ◼   ► can level six peaked gymnasts.

00:12:31 ◼   ► - Yikes, Waltz, bad nymph for quick jigs vex.

00:12:34 ◼   ► 28 letters, baby.

00:12:36 ◼   ► Super easy to remember.

00:12:37 ◼   ► - Yeah, there's some really tight ones.

00:12:39 ◼   ► The six peaks gymnast is pretty long.

00:12:43 ◼   ► - Quick Zephyrs blow vexing daft gym.

00:12:46 ◼   ► These are real bad.

00:12:47 ◼   ► Sphinx of black courts, judge my vow.

00:12:50 ◼   ► - Yeah, there you go, Sphinx of black courts is a good one.

00:12:52 ◼   ► Yeah, this webpage says System 7 used this phrase

00:12:55 ◼   ► to show fonts.

00:12:56 ◼   ► - Wow.

00:12:58 ◼   ► - It may not be the shortest pangram,

00:12:59 ◼   ► but it's decidedly more interesting

00:13:00 ◼   ► than the quick brown fox I'm talking about,

00:13:01 ◼   ► the six peak gymnast thing.

00:13:03 ◼   ► - Today I learned, this is all news to me.

00:13:06 ◼   ► Yeah, 35 letters, quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog.

00:13:09 ◼   ► Ooh, here you go, pack my box with five dozen liquor jugs.

00:13:12 ◼   ► That's my new favorite.

00:13:14 ◼   ► - Wow.

00:13:14 ◼   ► - That's big Casey energy there.

00:13:16 ◼   ► All right, moving along, 'cause we can get lost in this.

00:13:18 ◼   ► Matt Gad has some clarification

00:13:20 ◼   ► with regard to the XZ sabotage.

00:13:23 ◼   ► I think we talked about that a week before last.

00:13:25 ◼   ► Matt writes, "The XZ backdoor wasn't adding

00:13:27 ◼   ► the attacker's key as an authorized key to SSH."

00:13:30 ◼   ► - Which is what I said, 'cause I messed up, sorry.

00:13:31 ◼   ► - Well, I was right there with you.

00:13:33 ◼   ► - By the way, I'm pretty sure this was during overtime.

00:13:35 ◼   ► - Oh, I think you're right.

00:13:35 ◼   ► "It was even more nefarious.

00:13:37 ◼   ► The attacker could send encrypted commands

00:13:38 ◼   ► as part of the SSH handshake,

00:13:41 ◼   ► which were then executed as root by SSH-D.

00:13:44 ◼   ► On the wire, it would appear normal,

00:13:45 ◼   ► which presumably would mean a failed login attempt

00:13:47 ◼   ► in the logs, and so less likely to be seen as a threat."

00:13:49 ◼   ► Very, very clever.

00:13:51 ◼   ► - Yeah, this just goes to, so, you know,

00:13:53 ◼   ► what I had said was, like, you know, if this XZ backdoor

00:13:55 ◼   ► would have actually gotten out there,

00:13:56 ◼   ► that it would have added a root key to SSH-D

00:14:00 ◼   ► that would allow the attacker to log into any Linux system

00:14:03 ◼   ► as root remotely that had this version.

00:14:06 ◼   ► And so it turns out, yeah, this is even better than that.

00:14:09 ◼   ► It would allow that, but because of how it was implemented

00:14:12 ◼   ► as part of the handshake, it would then also not leave

00:14:15 ◼   ► a trace in the logs.

00:14:17 ◼   ► Wow.

00:14:18 ◼   ► Just wow.

00:14:21 ◼   ► - You could say that a mad boxer shot a quick glove jab

00:14:24 ◼   ► to the jaw of his dizzy opponent, 54 letters.

00:14:26 ◼   ► - Oh my god.

00:14:27 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:14:28 ◼   ► And I think, so, if I understand this correctly,

00:14:29 ◼   ► so I think, 'cause it probably wouldn't show up in the logs

00:14:34 ◼   ► as a failed login attempt to a compromised system,

00:14:39 ◼   ► because it wouldn't fail.

00:14:40 ◼   ► So is the idea of this that it wouldn't show up in the logs

00:14:43 ◼   ► in other systems that don't have this version

00:14:45 ◼   ► as they, like, fraud it? - No, it's not log,

00:14:47 ◼   ► as part of the handshake, you could send commands

00:14:50 ◼   ► that would be executed.

00:14:51 ◼   ► So all you would see is an SSH handshake.

00:14:53 ◼   ► What happened after the handshake?

00:14:54 ◼   ► - So you don't even need to be logged in at all.

00:14:55 ◼   ► So it doesn't even count the log.

00:14:57 ◼   ► - I think you could not even try to log in.

00:15:00 ◼   ► You would just do the handshake and it would say,

00:15:01 ◼   ► okay, tell me, like, the user, or I don't know,

00:15:03 ◼   ► maybe the handshake is part of the attempted login.

00:15:06 ◼   ► But worst case, it would show as a failed login

00:15:08 ◼   ► to whatever, you could put whatever you wanted

00:15:10 ◼   ► as the failed login credentials,

00:15:12 ◼   ► because you don't care that logged in during the handshake

00:15:14 ◼   ► is when you essentially get to issue a command

00:15:17 ◼   ► that will be run by root.

00:15:18 ◼   ► Now, obviously, one of the commands that you could issue

00:15:20 ◼   ► that would be run by root would be to, like,

00:15:22 ◼   ► you know, put your key in and then allow you to log in.

00:15:24 ◼   ► Like, but you're just essentially, it's like a remote shell,

00:15:27 ◼   ► please execute arbitrary command on this machine

00:15:30 ◼   ► that will be run by root.

00:15:30 ◼   ► And once you have that ability,

00:15:32 ◼   ► you can do all sorts of things.

00:15:33 ◼   ► But that happens as part of the SSH handshake.

00:15:36 ◼   ► - That is incredible.

00:15:37 ◼   ► I mean, like, you know, one of the really scary aspects

00:15:42 ◼   ► of this XE, you know, infiltration and attack is,

00:15:47 ◼   ► it just shows, like, the level of sophistication

00:15:50 ◼   ► and long-term planning.

00:15:51 ◼   ► I mean, like, this was years in the making.

00:15:54 ◼   ► Like, you know, the bad actor who was trying to get

00:15:59 ◼   ► write access to the repository started doing commits

00:16:02 ◼   ► to their repository something like three or four years ago,

00:16:05 ◼   ► or five, like, it's been this very long-term,

00:16:08 ◼   ► very sophisticated attack.

00:16:10 ◼   ► And so, you know, you gotta think, like,

00:16:13 ◼   ► who would have the motivation and the resources to do this?

00:16:16 ◼   ► And that's why, like, most people,

00:16:18 ◼   ► when you have attacks of this scale,

00:16:19 ◼   ► most people assume it's probably, like, a state-sponsored

00:16:22 ◼   ► or a state intelligence agency-sponsored hack,

00:16:25 ◼   ► because this is not just, like, you know,

00:16:27 ◼   ► some dude having fun in his basement.

00:16:29 ◼   ► This is a much more sophisticated

00:16:32 ◼   ► and longer-term planned attack, and it's really scary.

00:16:35 ◼   ► - I mean, it could be some person in their basement,

00:16:37 ◼   ► because people don't have hobbies,

00:16:39 ◼   ► and they decide this is what they wanna do.

00:16:40 ◼   ► But definitely looks like, you know, especially,

00:16:42 ◼   ► I mean, it could actually just be a single person,

00:16:44 ◼   ► but that's quite an amount of dedication.

00:16:47 ◼   ► And the reason, like, the hack is clever,

00:16:49 ◼   ► but on the other hand, it's going in easy mode,

00:16:51 ◼   ► because if I tell you you're allowed to write code

00:16:53 ◼   ► that runs inside SSH-D, boy, it's really easy.

00:16:56 ◼   ► Like, you don't have to find a clever exploit,

00:16:57 ◼   ► or you just literally write the code.

00:16:59 ◼   ► You're in the binary.

00:17:01 ◼   ► That's what I was trying to get at in the overtime.

00:17:02 ◼   ► Like, you don't have to find an exploit.

00:17:04 ◼   ► You don't have to overflow a buffer.

00:17:05 ◼   ► You don't have to do anything.

00:17:06 ◼   ► It's like, just write your code here.

00:17:08 ◼   ► You're literally inside the SSH-D process

00:17:10 ◼   ► running this route, have fun.

00:17:11 ◼   ► - All right, we have some semi-breaking news.

00:17:14 ◼   ► I believe it was yesterday as we record

00:17:16 ◼   ► that Riley Testa's Delta Game emulator is available

00:17:20 ◼   ► as alt store PAL, or as part of alt store PAL

00:17:24 ◼   ► in the European Union.

00:17:25 ◼   ► - Which is his alternative marketplace.

00:17:28 ◼   ► - By the way, what an amazing name that is.

00:17:29 ◼   ► - It really, really is. - 'Cause it's like,

00:17:30 ◼   ► you know, PAL versus NTSC video stand.

00:17:32 ◼   ► Like, that's the European video stand.

00:17:34 ◼   ► Oh my God, it's so good.

00:17:35 ◼   ► - Yep, it's incredibly good.

00:17:36 ◼   ► And so the alt store PAL requires,

00:17:41 ◼   ► it costs money of some sort, isn't it?

00:17:43 ◼   ► - It's like two euros a year or something.

00:17:45 ◼   ► - Yeah, and that's in theory just to offset

00:17:47 ◼   ► the core technology fee, which, I mean, makes sense.

00:17:50 ◼   ► - Yeah, that's extremely reasonable.

00:17:52 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah, it very much is.

00:17:53 ◼   ► And I also have great news that Delta is also available

00:17:56 ◼   ► in the regular app store.

00:17:57 ◼   ► And as we record right now, it is the number one free app

00:18:02 ◼   ► in the regular global app store.

00:18:04 ◼   ► So how do you like them apples?

00:18:06 ◼   ► - Yeah, of course, the Delta in alt store

00:18:10 ◼   ► is supported by Patreon, and that is not a business model

00:18:14 ◼   ► that the app store allows.

00:18:15 ◼   ► So if you're wondering, like, why did he bother putting it

00:18:18 ◼   ► in alt star or one, I think he wants to do

00:18:20 ◼   ► the alternative marketplace thing, period,

00:18:22 ◼   ► for this and potentially other apps.

00:18:24 ◼   ► But two, you can't, like, send people to Patreon

00:18:28 ◼   ► to pay for your app or whatever.

00:18:29 ◼   ► Like, that's not supported by the app store.

00:18:30 ◼   ► But on the app store, Delta is free.

00:18:33 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah, so why not put it globally?

00:18:36 ◼   ► Like, I mean, I have some theories,

00:18:38 ◼   ► but why not just put it in the app store everywhere?

00:18:40 ◼   ► Isn't it in the app store, or what?

00:18:41 ◼   ► - I didn't think so.

00:18:43 ◼   ► I might have that wrong, but I didn't think so.

00:18:45 ◼   ► - I mean, we can't test this, we're not in the EU.

00:18:47 ◼   ► I don't know if there's a good way for end users

00:18:49 ◼   ► to, like, fake their location or change their region

00:18:51 ◼   ► to EU or whatever, and I certainly wouldn't want to try

00:18:53 ◼   ► with any of my real Apple IDs, given how friendly

00:18:55 ◼   ► the Apple ID system is to change us like that.

00:18:58 ◼   ► - This must be really glorious for all the EU people

00:19:00 ◼   ► who, like, for years have had to manage US IDs and stuff

00:19:03 ◼   ► for, like, streaming services and various Apple stuff,

00:19:06 ◼   ► and they have to have, like, fake US Apple IDs

00:19:09 ◼   ► and stuff like that.

00:19:09 ◼   ► And now finally, we have to go the other direction

00:19:11 ◼   ► and try to figure, how do you make an EU Apple ID?

00:19:14 ◼   ► Where, can we use EU VPNs?

00:19:15 ◼   ► Like, it's, we're finally doing it in the opposite direction.

00:19:18 ◼   ► - ZM Knox in the chat room says Delta is not

00:19:21 ◼   ► in the app store in Europe.

00:19:22 ◼   ► I mean, again, we have no way to test this,

00:19:24 ◼   ► and I didn't see anything in there.

00:19:25 ◼   ► Although, maybe it's, like, doesn't Apple have the rules

00:19:27 ◼   ► that, like, if you choose the--

00:19:29 ◼   ► - Oh, yes, that's right, that's right.

00:19:31 ◼   ► - If you decide you want the different business terms

00:19:33 ◼   ► or whatever, then you can't be in the app store?

00:19:36 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:19:37 ◼   ► - No, I think that's correct, and apparently

00:19:39 ◼   ► it's a Euro 50 per year for Alt Store.

00:19:42 ◼   ► But no, I think you're right, I think that probably is it.

00:19:44 ◼   ► And honestly, like, if I were Riley,

00:19:46 ◼   ► and I wanted to try to encourage people

00:19:48 ◼   ► to get on Alt Store, irrespective of, you know,

00:19:51 ◼   ► anything else, why not put Delta behind it?

00:19:54 ◼   ► 'Cause you know you're gonna get a bunch of installs,

00:19:55 ◼   ► 'cause it's making tremendous news

00:19:57 ◼   ► now that it's available, you know, globally.

00:20:00 ◼   ► And if I was in the EU, you bet your bottom

00:20:02 ◼   ► I would go and download Alt Store Pal

00:20:05 ◼   ► in order to give this a shot.

00:20:07 ◼   ► And I did download, by the way, I did download Delta

00:20:10 ◼   ► yesterday, I'd had it already thanks to TestFlight

00:20:13 ◼   ► from Riley, 'cause we know each other a little bit.

00:20:15 ◼   ► But man, getting it in the app store and then playing,

00:20:18 ◼   ► like, a Nintendo 64 or Game Boy game on it, it's something.

00:20:22 ◼   ► It is really freaking cool, and it's so well done

00:20:25 ◼   ► and so good, it's not shovelware like everything else

00:20:29 ◼   ► we've seen so far has been, it's really, really good.

00:20:33 ◼   ► And I'm not entirely sure why Riley made it free,

00:20:36 ◼   ► but I am thankful that it is, and it works--

00:20:39 ◼   ► - Well, that's the business model, it's supported by Patreon.

00:20:41 ◼   ► Like, it's free in the Alt Store as well.

00:20:42 ◼   ► And by the way, we have a bunch of EU and UK residents

00:20:44 ◼   ► who are looking for Delta in the app store

00:20:46 ◼   ► in the UK and the EU, and they say it's not there.

00:20:49 ◼   ► So there's that real-time answer

00:20:51 ◼   ► from our listeners overseas.

00:20:55 ◼   ► Yeah, so I think the idea is like you get it for free

00:20:58 ◼   ► and then if you pay for the Patreon,

00:20:59 ◼   ► you get early access to betas or something like that.

00:21:01 ◼   ► But either way, like, in the Alt Store,

00:21:04 ◼   ► in Delta, you could say whatever you want

00:21:06 ◼   ► and put whatever screen up you want

00:21:08 ◼   ► and describe the Patreon business model

00:21:09 ◼   ► and provide links to Patreon and do all sorts of things

00:21:12 ◼   ► that Apple doesn't allow.

00:21:13 ◼   ► - Yep, yeah, so we'll put a link in the show notes

00:21:16 ◼   ► to the blog post announcing Alt Store Pal,

00:21:18 ◼   ► and Riley calls out some other things

00:21:20 ◼   ► that are apparently also in the Alt Store,

00:21:23 ◼   ► including UTM, which is a full-featured virtual machine

00:21:26 ◼   ► for iOS and iPad OS, so you can literally run Windows

00:21:30 ◼   ► on your iPad, apparently.

00:21:31 ◼   ► There's also Kotoba by our friend Will Haynes,

00:21:34 ◼   ► which is just the built-in iOS dictionary

00:21:36 ◼   ► as a standalone app, which isn't allowed in the App Store

00:21:39 ◼   ► because it waives hands reasons.

00:21:41 ◼   ► And so there's a bunch of other stuff in there,

00:21:44 ◼   ► in Alt Store Pal that looks interesting.

00:21:46 ◼   ► So you should check it out if you're in the EU.

00:21:49 ◼   ► And again, I mean, regulation works, at least,

00:21:53 ◼   ► or it sure seems to, because here we are with Delta

00:21:56 ◼   ► in the US as well, and I'm really excited for it.

00:21:59 ◼   ► - And can we clarify, is Apple out of business in the EU?

00:22:02 ◼   ► Oh wait, nothing happened.

00:22:04 ◼   ► - No, it doesn't seem so.

00:22:05 ◼   ► - Oh, that's right, there's no downside whatsoever.

00:22:07 ◼   ► - Not yet.

00:22:08 ◼   ► For people who are newer iPhone users, I'll give my advice.

00:22:14 ◼   ► Any time you see a emulator, especially a game emulator

00:22:18 ◼   ► on the App Store, even if you think you have no interest

00:22:20 ◼   ► in it, download it, because these things get pulled

00:22:23 ◼   ► from the App Store so frequently,

00:22:24 ◼   ► but if you've previously purchased or downloaded it,

00:22:27 ◼   ► you still have it on your phone

00:22:28 ◼   ► and it will still run, and Apple doesn't yank it

00:22:31 ◼   ► off your phone, so that's why I have so many

00:22:33 ◼   ► Nintendo emulators that were on the App Store

00:22:36 ◼   ► for like five hours or 24 hours or whatever.

00:22:39 ◼   ► If you download it before they pull it,

00:22:41 ◼   ► you get to keep it as long as you manage to bring it

00:22:43 ◼   ► from one phone to the other.

00:22:44 ◼   ► It might be more difficult now with iCloud restores

00:22:46 ◼   ► and not doing iTunes backups and stuff like that,

00:22:48 ◼   ► but I have had NES emulators on my phone

00:22:51 ◼   ► since before I had a phone, since I had an iPod Touch,

00:22:54 ◼   ► I think, because Apple and App Review are sometimes slow

00:22:57 ◼   ► in removing things when they accidentally allow them

00:22:59 ◼   ► to go through, and then another, speaking of emulation,

00:23:01 ◼   ► another thing someone brought up, I didn't grab it

00:23:03 ◼   ► for the notes in time, but what about emulating,

00:23:07 ◼   ► and there's a question about this in Ask ATP

00:23:09 ◼   ► if we get to it, what about emulating old iPhones,

00:23:12 ◼   ► iPhone OS, iPad OS or whatever, that's another

00:23:15 ◼   ► emulation frontier that obviously is not,

00:23:17 ◼   ► well, I say obviously, I'm gonna assume

00:23:19 ◼   ► it's not allowed on the App Store, but in Alt Store,

00:23:22 ◼   ► if someone comes up with essentially like an iOS emulator

00:23:26 ◼   ► so you can run like iOS 4 and run like your old games

00:23:28 ◼   ► in 32-bit mode somehow, that would be a cool thing.

00:23:31 ◼   ► I don't know if such a thing exists,

00:23:32 ◼   ► but when you mentioned UTM.

00:23:34 ◼   ► - Well, I have some news.

00:23:36 ◼   ► So first of all, real-time follow-up, I misspoke earlier,

00:23:38 ◼   ► UTM and Catoba are not currently on Alt Store.

00:23:41 ◼   ► These are examples of things that could be,

00:23:42 ◼   ► so I misspoke before, I apologize for the error.

00:23:44 ◼   ► The offending party has been sacked.

00:23:46 ◼   ► However, one of the things that is in this blog post

00:23:48 ◼   ► in the same section of things that could be on Alt Store,

00:23:52 ◼   ► I will read from the blog post, or take old OS,

00:23:55 ◼   ► a beautifully made recreation of iOS 4

00:23:57 ◼   ► built entirely in SwiftUI.

00:23:59 ◼   ► I know that's not exactly what you're talking about, Jon,

00:24:00 ◼   ► but the spirit is the same.

00:24:02 ◼   ► Clearly a labor of love that does no one any harm

00:24:04 ◼   ► but is not allowed in the App Store

00:24:05 ◼   ► because it quote, "appears confusingly,"

00:24:07 ◼   ► confusingly, Jon, similar to an existing

00:24:09 ◼   ► Apple product interface or app.

00:24:11 ◼   ► - I'm kind of surprised Switch Glass

00:24:12 ◼   ► was allowed in the Mac App Store.

00:24:13 ◼   ► It's not confusingly like the dock.

00:24:15 ◼   ► - Right?

00:24:16 ◼   ► Don't tempt them, don't tempt them at all.

00:24:19 ◼   ► Anyway, I'm so excited for Riley.

00:24:20 ◼   ► I mean, Riley's been working on this,

00:24:23 ◼   ► depending on your definition, for literally a decade.

00:24:26 ◼   ► It's been forever.

00:24:28 ◼   ► Riley just wants to do the stuff he wants to do,

00:24:31 ◼   ► and it doesn't seem to be hurting anyone,

00:24:32 ◼   ► as far as I can tell.

00:24:33 ◼   ► - Well, I'll see what Nintendo thinks about that.

00:24:34 ◼   ► - Well, I mean, he's not offering ROMs,

00:24:37 ◼   ► but I do take your point.

00:24:39 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah, no.

00:24:40 ◼   ► - I think Nintendo's massive overreaction

00:24:43 ◼   ► to the Switch emulator and the Zelda ROMs,

00:24:47 ◼   ► that was a direct attack on their current system.

00:24:50 ◼   ► And yes, we can say yes, it's very old,

00:24:52 ◼   ► but it is still their current system,

00:24:53 ◼   ► and it was a current new hot game release.

00:24:57 ◼   ► So that really slapped them in the face

00:24:59 ◼   ► in a way that people trading around old ROMs

00:25:02 ◼   ► for the NES and Game Boy,

00:25:03 ◼   ► like nobody really cares that much about those today.

00:25:06 ◼   ► - I mean, Nintendo does sell all those things.

00:25:08 ◼   ► - They do, but I don't think that's a massive source

00:25:11 ◼   ► of money directly for them,

00:25:12 ◼   ► and they also tend to usually roll those

00:25:14 ◼   ► into their monthly service more recently.

00:25:19 ◼   ► And so I don't know how much incremental extra money

00:25:22 ◼   ► they're making from having Mario 1 on the Switch.

00:25:25 ◼   ► I'm sure it's some, but it's probably insignificant.

00:25:28 ◼   ► They care a lot, though,

00:25:29 ◼   ► if you pirate the new Zelda game for Switch.

00:25:31 ◼   ► That's a very, very different beast.

00:25:34 ◼   ► So their reaction to the Switch emulator

00:25:36 ◼   ► and to that I think was more warranted.

00:25:39 ◼   ► Emulators have used it for a very long time, though,

00:25:41 ◼   ► and until that, they seem to not really care.

00:25:44 ◼   ► People who work at Nintendo

00:25:45 ◼   ► and who make Nintendo decisions,

00:25:47 ◼   ► they're not stupid and they're not living in a box.

00:25:49 ◼   ► Like, they knew about emulators beforehand.

00:25:51 ◼   ► This was not how they learned about them.

00:25:53 ◼   ► So I wouldn't expect major crackdowns

00:25:56 ◼   ► on other emulators by Nintendo.

00:25:58 ◼   ► I think they just care a lot about the current ones,

00:26:01 ◼   ► things that emulate their current system

00:26:03 ◼   ► that still has a lot of commercial value.

00:26:05 ◼   ► - We'll see.

00:26:06 ◼   ► I mean, this thing is in the news a lot.

00:26:07 ◼   ► And by the way, I think some of our chat room folks

00:26:10 ◼   ► were a victim to the leisurely, let's say,

00:26:12 ◼   ► CDN propagation of App Store things

00:26:14 ◼   ► because someone said that Delta was not in the App Store

00:26:17 ◼   ► in the UK, and then someone in the UK said,

00:26:20 ◼   ► "No, it is in the App Store in the UK."

00:26:22 ◼   ► So anyway, UK's not in the EU, and that would make sense.

00:26:24 ◼   ► So apparently Delta is in the App Store in the UK,

00:26:28 ◼   ► but not in the EU, as far as we can tell

00:26:30 ◼   ► based on CDN propagation as of this morning.

00:26:32 ◼   ► - All right, Apple will allow the reuse

00:26:37 ◼   ► of iPhone parts for repairs with a notable catch.

00:26:40 ◼   ► Reading from Ars Technica,

00:26:42 ◼   ► "Apple has always had a strong preference

00:26:44 ◼   ► "that only its own parts be used in repairs,

00:26:46 ◼   ► "but only if they're brand new.

00:26:48 ◼   ► "Now, soon after Oregon passed a repair bill

00:26:50 ◼   ► "forbidding devices from rejecting parts

00:26:52 ◼   ► "with software locks or quote-unquote parts pairing,

00:26:55 ◼   ► "Apple says it will allow for used Apple parts

00:26:57 ◼   ► "in future iPhone repairs."

00:26:58 ◼   ► Again, regulations don't work.

00:27:00 ◼   ► Gentlemen, they don't work.

00:27:01 ◼   ► They enforce no change.

00:27:03 ◼   ► They compel no change that doesn't work.

00:27:05 ◼   ► Similarly, you should never run to the press.

00:27:06 ◼   ► That doesn't work either.

00:27:08 ◼   ► Stephen Hackett over at 512Pixels writes,

00:27:11 ◼   ► "Apple lobbied against the Oregon law,

00:27:13 ◼   ► "but in its press release, John Turnus,

00:27:15 ◼   ► "Apple's Senior Vice President of Hardware Engineering,

00:27:17 ◼   ► "says, 'For the last two years,

00:27:19 ◼   ► "'teams across Apple have been innovating

00:27:21 ◼   ► "'on product design and manufacturing

00:27:22 ◼   ► "'to support repairs with used Apple parts

00:27:24 ◼   ► "'that won't compromise user safety, security, or privacy.

00:27:27 ◼   ► "'With this latest expansion to our repair program,

00:27:29 ◼   ► "'we're excited to be adding even more choice

00:27:31 ◼   ► "'and convenience for our customers

00:27:32 ◼   ► "'while helping to extend the life of our products

00:27:34 ◼   ► "'and their parts.'"

00:27:37 ◼   ► - It was a fun dynamic where there's a proposed law

00:27:40 ◼   ► that will make Apple change something

00:27:41 ◼   ► about how they do business.

00:27:42 ◼   ► Apple lobbies against the law

00:27:43 ◼   ► and tries to stop it from happening,

00:27:44 ◼   ► but once it happens, they're so excited to comply with it.

00:27:47 ◼   ► - Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. - Right, sure.

00:27:49 ◼   ► I mean, again, they could've just complied in Oregon

00:27:52 ◼   ► or whatever, but they're complying globally, so I don't,

00:27:54 ◼   ► you know, there is, Apple is okay with these laws

00:27:57 ◼   ► as long as they don't make Apple do the things

00:28:01 ◼   ► that it really doesn't want to do,

00:28:03 ◼   ► and they already have that whole repair program thing

00:28:05 ◼   ► that they've been expanding.

00:28:06 ◼   ► So I think actually probably Apple's lobbying

00:28:09 ◼   ► was sufficient to make this law not as bad

00:28:11 ◼   ► as Apple thought it would be, and then, you know,

00:28:13 ◼   ► they're rolling out this change globally

00:28:15 ◼   ► instead of just doing it in Oregon, which is nice.

00:28:18 ◼   ► - PIRG, the Federation of State Public Interest

00:28:21 ◼   ► Research Groups, pointed to not only the Oregon repair bill,

00:28:24 ◼   ► but also a similar bill in Colorado.

00:28:27 ◼   ► iFixit CEO Kyle Wiens also pinned Apple's announcement

00:28:30 ◼   ► to the Colorado bill.

00:28:32 ◼   ► Wiens, who authored a blog post

00:28:33 ◼   ► shortly after Apple's announcement,

00:28:34 ◼   ► described Apple's new policy as, quote,

00:28:36 ◼   ► "a strategy of half-promises

00:28:38 ◼   ► "and unnecessarily complicated hedges," quote,

00:28:40 ◼   ► "designed to deflect more laws

00:28:42 ◼   ► "that would ban pairing entirely."

00:28:44 ◼   ► Another quote, "Aftermarket parts are key

00:28:46 ◼   ► "to the repair ecosystem, and Apple seems keen

00:28:49 ◼   ► "on continuing to ban those," Wiens wrote to Ars Technica.

00:28:52 ◼   ► - Yeah, so that's one, you know, this is all about,

00:28:54 ◼   ► oh, Apple used to require you use Apple parts

00:28:57 ◼   ► and also that they be brand new.

00:28:58 ◼   ► And now it's like, okay, you can use Apple parts,

00:29:00 ◼   ► but they don't have to be brand new.

00:29:02 ◼   ► And yeah, the people who are totally against parts pairing

00:29:04 ◼   ► are like, that's great and all,

00:29:05 ◼   ► but what we really want is to outlaw the practice

00:29:08 ◼   ► of forbidding parts or preventing parts

00:29:11 ◼   ► from working based on software lockouts, yada, yada, yada.

00:29:14 ◼   ► And Apple's argument is very often

00:29:15 ◼   ► that they really need to know that a part is authentic

00:29:18 ◼   ► and cryptographically paired with server validation

00:29:22 ◼   ► for important stuff like touch ID and face ID

00:29:24 ◼   ► so you can't make compromised phones.

00:29:26 ◼   ► And there's also an angle,

00:29:27 ◼   ► Apple has a lot of angles in this,

00:29:28 ◼   ► where they say this bad thing will happen

00:29:30 ◼   ► if you make us do this, and one of them is like,

00:29:32 ◼   ► well, now people will be buying phones

00:29:33 ◼   ► and harvesting the parts and selling them.

00:29:35 ◼   ► And I mean, I feel like there's still,

00:29:38 ◼   ► it's not like there's not already a lucrative market

00:29:40 ◼   ► for stealing people's iPhones.

00:29:41 ◼   ► And so I don't think this would change

00:29:43 ◼   ► much of anything there, but yeah,

00:29:44 ◼   ► they're trying to strike a balance between,

00:29:46 ◼   ► and we talked about this when we talked about

00:29:47 ◼   ► the security stuff, like a trusted platform module

00:29:49 ◼   ► or whatever, security does have benefits to the user

00:29:54 ◼   ► in terms of being able to be more certain

00:29:58 ◼   ► that the software that your phone is running

00:30:00 ◼   ► is the software that isn't intended to run

00:30:02 ◼   ► and has not been hacked or root kitted or whatever.

00:30:05 ◼   ► And parts pairing for things like face ID

00:30:07 ◼   ► and touch ID sensors, or even cameras or whatever,

00:30:10 ◼   ► are actually part of that chain of trust.

00:30:13 ◼   ► But on the other hand, it's ridiculous

00:30:15 ◼   ► when it becomes too difficult to repair phones

00:30:18 ◼   ► unless you go through Apple.

00:30:19 ◼   ► It's like kind of a way to say,

00:30:20 ◼   ► well, you gotta go through us,

00:30:21 ◼   ► 'cause we're the only ones who have the keys

00:30:22 ◼   ► to the kingdoms of part pairing or whatever,

00:30:24 ◼   ► or you can't buy a third party part,

00:30:25 ◼   ► or if you have two, for example,

00:30:26 ◼   ► if you have two phones and you own both of them

00:30:28 ◼   ► and the camera's good and one and bad on the other,

00:30:29 ◼   ► nope, sorry, you can't swap that at a third party thing

00:30:32 ◼   ► because of parts pairing.

00:30:33 ◼   ► And yeah, I think we are getting closer

00:30:35 ◼   ► to a reasonable compromise.

00:30:37 ◼   ► The old solution was Apple makes all the rules

00:30:39 ◼   ► and they make the rules for their own convenience

00:30:40 ◼   ► and tough luck.

00:30:41 ◼   ► And now we're moving away from that

00:30:45 ◼   ► and towards a little bit more sanity,

00:30:46 ◼   ► but obviously the people who want parts pairing

00:30:48 ◼   ► to go away entirely are not satisfied.

00:30:50 ◼   ► - All right, possibly the most important follow-up

00:30:53 ◼   ► that we've ever had on the show,

00:30:54 ◼   ► I will read from our internal show notes.

00:30:57 ◼   ► It reads as follows,

00:30:58 ◼   ► Marco has important ceiling fan switch follow-up.

00:31:00 ◼   ► I am here for this, please tell me.

00:31:02 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:31:03 ◼   ► So in last episode's after show,

00:31:05 ◼   ► I was discussing my, no, that was in Ask ATP, sorry.

00:31:10 ◼   ► I was discussing my tribulations

00:31:13 ◼   ► with Fanimation smart remotes

00:31:16 ◼   ► and how I only had two wire wiring

00:31:20 ◼   ► going from the switch to the fan in the ceiling,

00:31:22 ◼   ► but the ceiling fans tend to frequently have lights in them.

00:31:25 ◼   ► So if you only have two wire wiring

00:31:27 ◼   ► and you have a fan with a light,

00:31:28 ◼   ► you can't have a wall switch that controls speed of the fan

00:31:32 ◼   ► and the light separately.

00:31:34 ◼   ► I was lamenting this and saying I had to use

00:31:36 ◼   ► their dumb remote and their weird switches.

00:31:38 ◼   ► Well, I realized, we just had these fans installed

00:31:42 ◼   ► like two weeks ago.

00:31:44 ◼   ► We still have the boxes for them and everything.

00:31:45 ◼   ► Like everything is still happening in the house.

00:31:48 ◼   ► I realized, wait a minute, those light kits are optional.

00:31:52 ◼   ► - Oh.

00:31:53 ◼   ► - What kind of fan do you have

00:31:55 ◼   ► if you don't buy the light kit?

00:31:58 ◼   ► And it turns out, since they're sold separately,

00:32:00 ◼   ► the fan, by default, comes with a little plug

00:32:04 ◼   ► that goes in the middle of it

00:32:07 ◼   ► if you don't use the light on it.

00:32:08 ◼   ► Well, I never use the lights on these fans.

00:32:10 ◼   ► They're terrible.

00:32:12 ◼   ► So I went to everyone here, I'm like,

00:32:14 ◼   ► hey, we still have those plugs.

00:32:17 ◼   ► Can we maybe return the light kits and just not use them?

00:32:22 ◼   ► And so now the fan only has one wired function, the fan.

00:32:28 ◼   ► So I can now use good Caseta light switches for the fans.

00:32:33 ◼   ► So finally, I have the best of both worlds.

00:32:36 ◼   ► I have Caseta fan switches at the wall

00:32:38 ◼   ► so the wall switch works like a wall switch.

00:32:41 ◼   ► And I can have a little mini Pico remote on my desk

00:32:44 ◼   ► to control it separately without getting up during the show.

00:32:46 ◼   ► And it turns out those dumb, awful LED lights

00:32:49 ◼   ► that are on the bottom of these fans are totally optional

00:32:52 ◼   ► and it works even better without them

00:32:54 ◼   ► as long as you have other sources of light in the room.

00:32:56 ◼   ► But you should because those lights are terrible.

00:32:58 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, I know we've brought it up several times,

00:33:02 ◼   ► especially in the last couple episodes.

00:33:03 ◼   ► And they did sponsor one or two episodes in the past,

00:33:06 ◼   ► but I am so in the bag for Lutron, Caseta.

00:33:09 ◼   ► It's not even funny, like so incredibly

00:33:11 ◼   ► in the bag for them.

00:33:12 ◼   ► It's up there with like Sonos and probably Apple.

00:33:15 ◼   ► Actually, I'm probably more in the bag

00:33:17 ◼   ► for Sonos and Caseta than Lutron, Caseta

00:33:20 ◼   ► than I am for Apple, but that's okay.

00:33:22 ◼   ► - I don't know, I don't think you're too close

00:33:24 ◼   ► to switching to Windows or anything.

00:33:25 ◼   ► - Fair.

00:33:26 ◼   ► - Speaking of three-way switches,

00:33:28 ◼   ► one small bit of follow-up on that,

00:33:29 ◼   ► we were talking about our various habits

00:33:31 ◼   ► about setting the three-way switches.

00:33:33 ◼   ► And obviously the Lutron switch

00:33:36 ◼   ► that Mark was talking about solves that

00:33:37 ◼   ► because it's stateless, but we were saying,

00:33:39 ◼   ► oh, well, you need some smart to do it obviously

00:33:41 ◼   ► because it's sending a signal to whatever.

00:33:43 ◼   ► There is a non-smart stateless switch solution,

00:33:47 ◼   ► which is switches that essentially have relays in them.

00:33:48 ◼   ► And when you activate the switch,

00:33:50 ◼   ► it just flips the relay from one position to another.

00:33:52 ◼   ► So the physical switch is sometimes it's just a push button

00:33:54 ◼   ► or it could also be a rocker or whatever,

00:33:56 ◼   ► but inside it is like a relay.

00:33:57 ◼   ► So even if you don't wanna do any of the smart home stuff,

00:34:00 ◼   ► you can apparently find switches for your,

00:34:04 ◼   ► confusing three-way setups that just essentially work

00:34:06 ◼   ► like push buttons.

00:34:08 ◼   ► And it's just like every time you push it,

00:34:09 ◼   ► it just toggles it from what it is.

00:34:10 ◼   ► And that way you won't have to worry about

00:34:12 ◼   ► what state any of the switch is in

00:34:13 ◼   ► because all the switches are the same,

00:34:15 ◼   ► they're just push buttons.

00:34:15 ◼   ► - Oh, and it's just one button that you push and that's it?

00:34:18 ◼   ► - Yeah. - Oh, okay.

00:34:18 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, you can imagine you could do a rocker

00:34:20 ◼   ► like that too if you wanted, but it wouldn't matter

00:34:22 ◼   ► because anyway you're right.

00:34:23 ◼   ► Yeah, it's literally just a relay and it's like,

00:34:26 ◼   ► you are essentially turning the switch on and off,

00:34:28 ◼   ► but it's done through a relay.

00:34:29 ◼   ► So it's just one push button.

00:34:30 ◼   ► Sometimes they're big panels,

00:34:31 ◼   ► sometimes they're like a little doorbell button.

00:34:32 ◼   ► There's a whole bunch of different kinds.

00:34:34 ◼   ► - You know, I got a message from a friend of the show,

00:34:36 ◼   ► Ryan Jones, with a link to some Leviton,

00:34:41 ◼   ► which is the other brand that is really good

00:34:43 ◼   ► that's not Lutron, but sounds like Lutron.

00:34:45 ◼   ► Anyways, some Leviton switches,

00:34:47 ◼   ► or no, I'm sorry, it is a Lutron switch, my mistake.

00:34:51 ◼   ► And these are switches that do this sort of thing

00:34:55 ◼   ► with a dimmer, and what I want is a non-dimming version

00:34:57 ◼   ► because the particular lamp that I,

00:35:00 ◼   ► well, ceiling fixture that I have, it doesn't need to dim.

00:35:03 ◼   ► I don't want it to dim,

00:35:04 ◼   ► and I don't know if it supports dimming.

00:35:06 ◼   ► Well, anyways, trying to find a non-dimming version of this

00:35:09 ◼   ► is both exorbitantly expensive and very, very difficult,

00:35:13 ◼   ► which is very weird.

00:35:14 ◼   ► It's pretty cheap to do a dimming version,

00:35:16 ◼   ► or to find a dimming version, but for whatever reason,

00:35:18 ◼   ► a non-dimming version is very, very expensive,

00:35:21 ◼   ► and so I don't know what I'm gonna do.

00:35:22 ◼   ► I might see if maybe this fixture does support dimming

00:35:25 ◼   ► and the bulbs that are in it support dimming,

00:35:26 ◼   ► and maybe I'll just never use the dimming functionality,

00:35:29 ◼   ► but it's literally three or four times the cost

00:35:31 ◼   ► to get a non-dimming one, which makes zero sense to me.

00:35:34 ◼   ► Maybe there's some justification I'm not aware of.

00:35:36 ◼   ► - Well, they make fewer of them.

00:35:37 ◼   ► I mean, that's the-- - I guess that's true,

00:35:39 ◼   ► yeah, yeah. - Or maybe it's not made

00:35:40 ◼   ► at all anymore.

00:35:41 ◼   ► That's the HomeKit feature, by the way.

00:35:43 ◼   ► Among the million features that HomeKit doesn't have

00:35:45 ◼   ► that it should have is the ability

00:35:47 ◼   ► to take a smart switch that is dimmable,

00:35:50 ◼   ► and for you to say in settings somewhere,

00:35:52 ◼   ► you know what, I know it's dimmable,

00:35:53 ◼   ► but just make it a toggle,

00:35:54 ◼   ► because my two lights in my living room,

00:35:56 ◼   ► they're on Lutron switches that happen to be dimmable,

00:35:58 ◼   ► and the lights are dimmable, but I never want to dim them,

00:36:01 ◼   ► 'cause I wanna go into a control center on my phone

00:36:05 ◼   ► to manually turn a light on

00:36:07 ◼   ► if I'm not doing a scene or whatever.

00:36:09 ◼   ► I have to drag the little dimmer bar up to the top

00:36:12 ◼   ► instead of it just being a toggle,

00:36:13 ◼   ► and it'd be so easy in software to just say,

00:36:17 ◼   ► make this not dimmable.

00:36:19 ◼   ► I mean, I know that's like,

00:36:19 ◼   ► oh, but what if someone actually sets it that way,

00:36:22 ◼   ► and now they're confused why they can't dim things?

00:36:23 ◼   ► Like, I know, software's hard,

00:36:24 ◼   ► but I know there's a software solution to this,

00:36:26 ◼   ► and every time I have to drag my phone up

00:36:28 ◼   ► a little progress bar to turn the light on and off

00:36:30 ◼   ► that I just always want to be completely on or completely off

00:36:32 ◼   ► it annoys me.

00:36:33 ◼   ► - Yeah, I don't blame you.

00:36:34 ◼   ► - By the way, and actually, I did that at the beach,

00:36:36 ◼   ► because the bulbs I use in that office

00:36:40 ◼   ► are non-dimmable bulbs,

00:36:42 ◼   ► and I feel like I have to shout these out.

00:36:44 ◼   ► Somehow, I forget, I think it was an ATP listener

00:36:47 ◼   ► who told me about these by email at some point,

00:36:50 ◼   ► but I love these bulbs from this company

00:36:52 ◼   ► called Waveform Lighting.

00:36:54 ◼   ► Not a sponsor, you know,

00:36:56 ◼   ► they're just really good LED bulbs.

00:36:58 ◼   ► Like, the wide CRI, the flicker-free,

00:37:01 ◼   ► all the stuff that you actually want out of LED bulbs,

00:37:04 ◼   ► theirs do it all,

00:37:06 ◼   ► but many of their bulbs are non-dimmable,

00:37:08 ◼   ► and so I actually had this exact requirement at the beach

00:37:11 ◼   ► just for like a regular light switch circuit,

00:37:13 ◼   ► and I can strongly recommend these light bulbs.

00:37:17 ◼   ► If you are a lighting nerd,

00:37:19 ◼   ► which, given our audience,

00:37:20 ◼   ► I'm sure there are many of you out there,

00:37:22 ◼   ► they're very good bulbs.

00:37:23 ◼   ► - Yeah, there's nothing about LED light bulbs

00:37:25 ◼   ► that has always annoyed me.

00:37:27 ◼   ► I mean, you mentioned last time,

00:37:28 ◼   ► like, oh, you buy these lights with the fan,

00:37:29 ◼   ► and it's a custom component,

00:37:30 ◼   ► and they say it's gonna last forever, but it doesn't.

00:37:32 ◼   ► The thing, like, lights have become like electronics,

00:37:36 ◼   ► where the part that will wear out or will annoy you

00:37:39 ◼   ► because it's crappy is the electronics,

00:37:41 ◼   ► not the part that produces the light.

00:37:42 ◼   ► I know they're intimately connected

00:37:44 ◼   ► because of the way LED lights work,

00:37:45 ◼   ► but that electronic part,

00:37:47 ◼   ► that's the little board that's gonna burn out.

00:37:48 ◼   ► That's the part that's not gonna have, you know,

00:37:51 ◼   ► a good circuit to handle dimming without flickering,

00:37:53 ◼   ► and like, it's, they're,

00:37:56 ◼   ► not that they're little computers,

00:37:57 ◼   ► but they're essentially consumer electronics devices

00:37:59 ◼   ► in a way that the, like, tungsten filament bulbs

00:38:02 ◼   ► from my childhood were not.

00:38:03 ◼   ► They were just like a wire with a different element

00:38:06 ◼   ► and a curly little thing,

00:38:07 ◼   ► and you sent electricity through it,

00:38:08 ◼   ► and now, yeah, what happens to all the lights in my house

00:38:10 ◼   ► is like, oh, this LED light bulb

00:38:12 ◼   ► will last you for 20 years.

00:38:13 ◼   ► Like, no way.

00:38:14 ◼   ► The electronics, if you buy it cheap on the electronics,

00:38:16 ◼   ► they're gonna burn out in four years.

00:38:17 ◼   ► - Yep. - It's terrible.

00:38:19 ◼   ► (upbeat music)

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00:39:00 ◼   ► What better time to focus on the craft of writing Swift

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00:39:37 ◼   ► (upbeat music)

00:39:41 ◼   ► - I gotta tell you, I have mixed feelings

00:39:43 ◼   ► about what the DOJ has been up to recently,

00:39:45 ◼   ► but right now they're doing the Lord's work,

00:39:46 ◼   ► because Ticketmaster's Taylor Swift ticketing fiasco

00:39:49 ◼   ► might just have led to a lawsuit from the DOJ.

00:39:52 ◼   ► If there's a bigger group of (beep)

00:39:54 ◼   ► that deserve to be sued, I cannot find them,

00:39:57 ◼   ► because holy God, I haven't bought anything

00:39:59 ◼   ► from Ticketmaster, well, for myself in a while.

00:40:02 ◼   ► I bought for some dear friends of ours.

00:40:04 ◼   ► It's complicated, but I think Verizon was doing a presale,

00:40:07 ◼   ► and they're like T-Mobile people or whatever,

00:40:09 ◼   ► and so they had me buy them two tickets

00:40:11 ◼   ► to a Justin Timberlake concert in North Carolina, I believe.

00:40:15 ◼   ► Granted, a lot of this was the cost of ticket,

00:40:17 ◼   ► but it was something to the order of $750 for two tickets,

00:40:20 ◼   ► and I am still dumbfounded by this,

00:40:23 ◼   ► and I think I bought these two months ago,

00:40:24 ◼   ► and a lot of that, easily $100 plus was bull(beep) fees

00:40:28 ◼   ► that Ticketmaster charges because they can.

00:40:31 ◼   ► So apparently, as per the Verge,

00:40:33 ◼   ► the Department of Justice is preparing

00:40:35 ◼   ► to file an antitrust lawsuit

00:40:36 ◼   ► against Ticketmaster's parent company Live Nation,

00:40:38 ◼   ► according to a report from Wall Street Journal.

00:40:40 ◼   ► The lawsuit could reportedly come as early as next month

00:40:42 ◼   ► and will target the company's alleged monopoly

00:40:44 ◼   ► in the live ticketing industry.

00:40:45 ◼   ► Live Nation drew antitrust scrutiny

00:40:46 ◼   ► when it merged with Ticketmaster in 2010,

00:40:49 ◼   ► but those concerns boiled over in November 2022,

00:40:51 ◼   ► when a Ticketmaster crash blocked thousands

00:40:53 ◼   ► of Taylor Swift fans from purchasing tickets

00:40:54 ◼   ► for the Aerostore due to quote, "unprecedented demand,"

00:40:57 ◼   ► quote, as if they couldn't see that coming.

00:41:00 ◼   ► My God, anyway, the DOJ opened an investigation

00:41:02 ◼   ► to Live Nation shortly after, The New York Times reported.

00:41:04 ◼   ► Again, I cannot find a better group to fall the DOJ's ire.

00:41:09 ◼   ► Like, I am so here for this.

00:41:11 ◼   ► Please, just slag 'em.

00:41:13 ◼   ► Just absolutely destroy them.

00:41:15 ◼   ► - I think it'll be easy to prove monopoly power

00:41:18 ◼   ► for like, this is just such a slam dunk.

00:41:19 ◼   ► Like, Ticketmaster, for people who don't know,

00:41:21 ◼   ► is a company in the United States

00:41:23 ◼   ► that essentially has a stranglehold

00:41:25 ◼   ► on buying tickets to live music events.

00:41:29 ◼   ► They have deals with all the people

00:41:31 ◼   ► who run all the stadiums and all the clubs,

00:41:33 ◼   ► and it's just like, it's like a cartel.

00:41:34 ◼   ► Like, if you read the history of like, Ticketmaster,

00:41:36 ◼   ► and the fact that they merged with their largest competitor,

00:41:39 ◼   ► like, they're just, they're all powerful.

00:41:41 ◼   ► I mean, if you wanna go all the way back to the '90s,

00:41:43 ◼   ► you can see like, Pearl Jam protesting.

00:41:45 ◼   ► The Pearl Jam was way ahead of its time,

00:41:46 ◼   ► basically saying, we are sick of dealing with Ticketmaster.

00:41:48 ◼   ► It's bad for us, it's bad for our fans, we hate them,

00:41:51 ◼   ► so now we're not going to use Ticketmaster.

00:41:53 ◼   ► And Ticketmaster was like, well, now you're never gonna have

00:41:55 ◼   ► any place to play, and there was this whole drama

00:41:57 ◼   ► surrounding that, so go back in the '90s history

00:42:01 ◼   ► and look that up.

00:42:01 ◼   ► - Ticketmaster is close to pure, I guess you can imagine.

00:42:04 ◼   ► And my dog is, here's some other dogs barking,

00:42:06 ◼   ► so as prophecy foretold.

00:42:08 ◼   ► - No, I think really, it's the, you know,

00:42:10 ◼   ► Daisy realizes that Ticketmaster is just awful.

00:42:13 ◼   ► Like, look, that just shows everybody hates Ticketmaster,

00:42:15 ◼   ► even dogs.

00:42:16 ◼   ► - Right, it's true.

00:42:17 ◼   ► - That's the thing, like, you will not find many causes

00:42:20 ◼   ► in the U.S. that will get more people behind you

00:42:23 ◼   ► than trying to, you know, kick Ticketmaster in the crotch.

00:42:26 ◼   ► Like, everyone hates Ticketmaster.

00:42:29 ◼   ► Everyone who has ever worked with them

00:42:30 ◼   ► on from any side of it, everyone who's ever bought a ticket

00:42:33 ◼   ► to anything from them, which is, if you've,

00:42:35 ◼   ► basically if you've attended a concert in the U.S.

00:42:38 ◼   ► from any major band at any major venue in the last 20 years,

00:42:42 ◼   ► you've probably bought a ticket from Ticketmaster.

00:42:44 ◼   ► And when you see those fees on those tickets,

00:42:47 ◼   ► it's like, it makes the App Store look positively generous

00:42:50 ◼   ► by comparison, like.

00:42:52 ◼   ► - That's true, actually.

00:42:52 ◼   ► - And it's just gone up and up, and if you're asking

00:42:54 ◼   ► yourself, if everybody hates Ticketmaster,

00:42:56 ◼   ► then why does everybody still use them?

00:42:58 ◼   ► That's the nature of monopoly.

00:42:59 ◼   ► That's what the DOJ will be saying about Apple,

00:43:01 ◼   ► and that's what is so easy to say about Ticketmaster.

00:43:03 ◼   ► Everyone hates you, and yet they still have to do business

00:43:05 ◼   ► with you, that's because you have monopoly power,

00:43:07 ◼   ► because there's no other choice, and that's exactly

00:43:09 ◼   ► where the DOJ should step in.

00:43:11 ◼   ► - I commend the DOJ for finally doing this.

00:43:13 ◼   ► I don't know what took so long,

00:43:14 ◼   ► but I'm glad they're doing it now.

00:43:15 ◼   ► Thank God, I wish them all the best of luck

00:43:18 ◼   ► in succeeding in this case.

00:43:20 ◼   ► - Yeah, seriously, I mean, just drag 'em.

00:43:22 ◼   ► Whatever you need to do, I'm here for it,

00:43:23 ◼   ► because, oh, it's so, so bad.

00:43:26 ◼   ► And I mean, their website is trash.

00:43:29 ◼   ► The entire experience, everything about it is trash.

00:43:32 ◼   ► Their fees are absolutely astronomical.

00:43:35 ◼   ► It's just out of control, and I cannot begin to overstate

00:43:40 ◼   ► how much I hate that company.

00:43:43 ◼   ► Like, it's just so, so bad.

00:43:47 ◼   ► I don't know, I was trying to find if I could figure out

00:43:51 ◼   ► what the fees were for this, so maybe I'll interrupt

00:43:54 ◼   ► with some real-time follow-up.

00:43:55 ◼   ► - And they've just been increasing the fees slowly,

00:43:56 ◼   ► because they can.

00:43:57 ◼   ► Like, that's, again, an example of monopoly power.

00:43:59 ◼   ► Everyone hates you, and you can keep raising prices?

00:44:02 ◼   ► - Yeah, who's gonna stop 'em?

00:44:02 ◼   ► - Yep, okay, here we go, I got it.

00:44:04 ◼   ► Two tickets, $315 per ticket.

00:44:07 ◼   ► There's nothing that has nothing to do with Tickmaster.

00:44:09 ◼   ► That's all them so far, so that's, what is that, $630?

00:44:13 ◼   ► Then, $4.62 for an order processing fee,

00:44:18 ◼   ► a $5 facility charge times two,

00:44:21 ◼   ► a $3.10 tax times two, but here's the kicker.

00:44:24 ◼   ► A $42.70 service fee per ticket.

00:44:29 ◼   ► $42.70 a ticket, why, why?

00:44:34 ◼   ► What have they done?

00:44:36 ◼   ► - They used to call it a convenience charge thing.

00:44:38 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:44:39 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:44:40 ◼   ► - Convenience fee, service fee, and like,

00:44:42 ◼   ► to just let people, this is a thing that sells you tickets

00:44:45 ◼   ► over the web, like, it's not rocket science.

00:44:48 ◼   ► It is not, it is like an e-commerce site from like Web 1.0

00:44:53 ◼   ► with similar quality in many cases.

00:44:55 ◼   ► Apparently, they were surprised that there was a lot

00:44:57 ◼   ► of traffic for Taylor Swift tickets.

00:44:58 ◼   ► Like, it's not an insurmountable problem.

00:45:00 ◼   ► It's not rocket science.

00:45:01 ◼   ► They're just selling tickets over the internet

00:45:04 ◼   ► and they're bad at it.

00:45:05 ◼   ► - Ah, I'm so mad now, all right.

00:45:06 ◼   ► Let's calm me down and talk about something

00:45:08 ◼   ► that makes me happy.

00:45:09 ◼   ► M4 Macs might be coming later this year.

00:45:11 ◼   ► Well, that makes me mildly happy 'cause I have an M3 Mac,

00:45:13 ◼   ► but you know what I'm saying.

00:45:15 ◼   ► According to MacRumors, all Macs will have an M4

00:45:17 ◼   ► by the end of next year.

00:45:18 ◼   ► Notice, and there's apparently going to be no skipping,

00:45:21 ◼   ► like the iMac, Mac Mini, et cetera.

00:45:22 ◼   ► So here's the launch order according to Mark Gurman.

00:45:25 ◼   ► Around the end of 2024, a low-end 14-inch MacBook Pro

00:45:28 ◼   ► with the M4, a 24-inch iMac with the M4.

00:45:31 ◼   ► Between the end of '24 and early '25,

00:45:33 ◼   ► new 14 and 16-inch high-end MacBook Pros with M4 Pro and Macs,

00:45:37 ◼   ► a Mac Mini with an M4 and an M4 Pro.

00:45:40 ◼   ► Spring of 2025, new 13-inch and 15-inch MacBook Airs,

00:45:44 ◼   ► a Mac Studio with a high-end M4 chip, whatever that means.

00:45:47 ◼   ► Then the second half of 2025,

00:45:49 ◼   ► a Mac Pro with an M4 Ultra, allegedly.

00:45:52 ◼   ► And then Apple is apparently considering allowing

00:45:54 ◼   ► its highest-end Mac desktops to support

00:45:55 ◼   ► as much as a half terabyte of memory.

00:45:58 ◼   ► Current Mac Studio Mac Pro top out at 192 gigs.

00:46:01 ◼   ► - Yeah, so this is the rumors about the M4

00:46:02 ◼   ► and that, you know, this whole AI angle,

00:46:04 ◼   ► like, oh, the M4 is gonna be AI optimized

00:46:06 ◼   ► as if the M3 and M2 and M1 don't have neural engines

00:46:09 ◼   ► to do AI stuff, but whatever.

00:46:10 ◼   ► Part of it's marking, part of it is, yes,

00:46:11 ◼   ► the neural engine keeps getting bigger

00:46:13 ◼   ► and it will continue to do so.

00:46:14 ◼   ► But the interesting part of this rumor is,

00:46:17 ◼   ► like you said at the start,

00:46:18 ◼   ► that every single Mac will have an M4 by the end of next year

00:46:23 ◼   ► which the current situation is kind of like

00:46:25 ◼   ► a motley collection of M3s and things that still have M2s,

00:46:29 ◼   ► including the high-end ones.

00:46:30 ◼   ► So like, you know, skipping, obviously the iMac did skip.

00:46:32 ◼   ► The iMac never had an M2, right?

00:46:34 ◼   ► So we know that skipped.

00:46:35 ◼   ► The Mac Mini hasn't skipped yet, technically,

00:46:38 ◼   ► 'cause it had the M1 and it had the M2.

00:46:40 ◼   ► It could still have the M3 and not skip.

00:46:43 ◼   ► We don't know about the Studio and Mac Pro.

00:46:45 ◼   ► Are they ever gonna get an M3 class chip

00:46:47 ◼   ► or are they going to wait for their M4 variants?

00:46:49 ◼   ► And so that kind of,

00:46:51 ◼   ► like when we imagine Apple taking over control of its chips,

00:46:53 ◼   ► it's like, well, now Apple doesn't have to wait for Intel,

00:46:56 ◼   ► for things and they can get exactly the chips they want

00:46:58 ◼   ► or whatever, but as we've discussed in the past,

00:47:01 ◼   ► a series of things have made that difficult.

00:47:03 ◼   ► Like the global pandemic has really hurt everything

00:47:07 ◼   ► having to do with parts and supplies

00:47:08 ◼   ► and everybody's plans about everything.

00:47:10 ◼   ► So in the middle there, there was definitely some time

00:47:13 ◼   ► when Apple's plans were surely messed up by that.

00:47:16 ◼   ► But what we would like to see happen

00:47:19 ◼   ► is what happens with the iPhone,

00:47:20 ◼   ► which is obviously the iPhone was a more important product,

00:47:22 ◼   ► but like every year the iPhone gets a new chip

00:47:24 ◼   ► and sometimes the chip is not as new

00:47:25 ◼   ► as we thought it would be,

00:47:26 ◼   ► like we didn't get the new GPU last year

00:47:28 ◼   ► or whatever when we thought we would

00:47:30 ◼   ► because it wasn't ready yet.

00:47:31 ◼   ► And there's always the difficulties of TSMC

00:47:34 ◼   ► and whether their process is ready

00:47:35 ◼   ► and M3B and all that stuff, right?

00:47:37 ◼   ► But you would think it's like, okay, Apple has chips.

00:47:40 ◼   ► They have a letter and a number that goes up in them

00:47:42 ◼   ► and they produce new ones every year.

00:47:43 ◼   ► It'd be nice if every year,

00:47:45 ◼   ► oh, this is the year of the M4 Macs

00:47:46 ◼   ► and next year is the M5 Macs and next year is the M6 Macs.

00:47:48 ◼   ► But instead it's like, well, these, you know,

00:47:51 ◼   ► these products that Apple cares less about,

00:47:53 ◼   ► like say the iPad and the Mac,

00:47:55 ◼   ► they just kind of come staggering at an Apple

00:47:57 ◼   ► with whatever chips are available at the time.

00:47:59 ◼   ► And every time we try to find a pattern,

00:48:01 ◼   ► it's like, oh, they do the low end chips

00:48:02 ◼   ► and the high end ones.

00:48:03 ◼   ► And maybe they do the middle end ones

00:48:05 ◼   ► and then save the low end ones for like,

00:48:08 ◼   ► I don't know what the rhyme or reason is,

00:48:09 ◼   ► but it is surely very complicated.

00:48:11 ◼   ► It is obviously not a premeditated strategy

00:48:13 ◼   ► about how to roll out chips.

00:48:14 ◼   ► It's like, what chips can we make?

00:48:16 ◼   ► How many can we make for what price at what time?

00:48:19 ◼   ► And the end result is confusion in Apple's product line,

00:48:25 ◼   ► not so much about what chip is better than which,

00:48:27 ◼   ► because the number going up is a clear sign,

00:48:28 ◼   ► but it's like, well, you know, people keep asking us,

00:48:31 ◼   ► should I buy computer X now,

00:48:34 ◼   ► or should I wait until the next CPU is gonna get,

00:48:36 ◼   ► and we have to say, like, we don't even know

00:48:37 ◼   ► if the Mac studio is gonna get an M3.

00:48:39 ◼   ► If it's not gonna get anything until like next year,

00:48:41 ◼   ► when it gets an M4 at the end of next year or something,

00:48:44 ◼   ► then yeah, by all means get it.

00:48:45 ◼   ► But if an M3 Mac studio is gonna be released to WWDC,

00:48:48 ◼   ► you should wait.

00:48:49 ◼   ► And we just don't know.

00:48:50 ◼   ► There's not enough precedent.

00:48:51 ◼   ► There's not enough of a pattern, right?

00:48:52 ◼   ► So I like that one of my favorite thing about this rumor is

00:48:56 ◼   ► with the M4, no more of that.

00:48:58 ◼   ► Every Mac will get an M4.

00:49:00 ◼   ► Like there's no exceptions.

00:49:01 ◼   ► Nobody's skipping a generation.

00:49:03 ◼   ► There's gonna be one for every computer.

00:49:04 ◼   ► Maybe there'll even be one worthy of the Mac Pro, we'll see.

00:49:07 ◼   ► But that's so much more easy to explain to people

00:49:10 ◼   ► that like all the Macs have M4s.

00:49:12 ◼   ► They're all safe to buy.

00:49:14 ◼   ► And next year all the Macs will have M5s.

00:49:16 ◼   ► Whatever it is, 1.5 years,

00:49:17 ◼   ► whatever the cadence they wanna do,

00:49:19 ◼   ► it'll be so refreshing if this was true.

00:49:20 ◼   ► And even this, like the rollout is a slow rollout

00:49:23 ◼   ► for getting it, but at least at one point,

00:49:25 ◼   ► there will be a point in time where we'll say,

00:49:27 ◼   ► now all the Macs have a chip with an M4 in them.

00:49:30 ◼   ► And that will be refreshing.

00:49:32 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, I'm excited to see Apple untethered

00:49:37 ◼   ► for lack of a better way of putting it.

00:49:39 ◼   ► Like you had said, without having to be beholden to Intel

00:49:42 ◼   ► or IBM and Motorola and days of yore, I'm happy for it.

00:49:47 ◼   ► I wish we had a more concrete set of examples

00:49:53 ◼   ► so we could extrapolate easier, but I'm not complaining.

00:49:56 ◼   ► It's just, it's fun actually to kind of be surprised

00:50:00 ◼   ► and see, oh, we didn't expect this to happen right now.

00:50:02 ◼   ► Like the very MacBook Pro I'm talking to you through

00:50:05 ◼   ► right now, I didn't expect to have this in this past fall,

00:50:08 ◼   ► but here it is and it's great.

00:50:10 ◼   ► - Yeah, and this rumored order is kind of back

00:50:12 ◼   ► to the old thing where it's like you release

00:50:14 ◼   ► the low end chip first.

00:50:15 ◼   ► So you get the, you know, the plain M4 in the iMac

00:50:18 ◼   ► and the low end MacBook Pros.

00:50:19 ◼   ► And then next you get the M4 Pro and Macs

00:50:23 ◼   ► in the MacBook Pros and the Mac mini.

00:50:25 ◼   ► And then finally you get the high end chip.

00:50:28 ◼   ► And of course the MacBook Air is being shoved

00:50:29 ◼   ► next to the high end chip one in spring of 2025.

00:50:32 ◼   ► It's just a slight oddity,

00:50:33 ◼   ► but that is a more understandable cadence.

00:50:36 ◼   ► But on the other hand, I did like it when,

00:50:38 ◼   ► like you said, they rolled out the M3 chip

00:50:39 ◼   ► and it was like, not just the M3, but also the M3 Pro

00:50:42 ◼   ► and the M3 Macs all at the same time.

00:50:44 ◼   ► I'm sure we'll see the M3 Ultra soon after.

00:50:46 ◼   ► And now we sit here waiting.

00:50:48 ◼   ► - There's a pretty interesting point I think

00:50:50 ◼   ► from user My Name Is T in the chat

00:50:52 ◼   ► regarding our previous topic, the Ticketmaster thing.

00:50:54 ◼   ► So My Name Is T says, I'm no Ticketmaster fan either,

00:50:58 ◼   ► but what Casey has demonstrated with the convenience charges

00:51:00 ◼   ► was that Ticketmaster charges a smaller percentage

00:51:02 ◼   ► for selling tickets than Apple charges for selling apps.

00:51:05 ◼   ► They just allow customers to see the itemized price

00:51:08 ◼   ► where Apple doesn't.

00:51:09 ◼   ► Imagine if the app store showed the convenience fee.

00:51:12 ◼   ► - Oh, that's so good.

00:51:13 ◼   ► - What's interesting about this is like,

00:51:15 ◼   ► part of what makes the Ticketmaster situation

00:51:18 ◼   ► so abusive and horrible and such a slap in the face

00:51:21 ◼   ► is similar to the way hotels

00:51:23 ◼   ► and some other things in the US are priced,

00:51:25 ◼   ► even just sales tax, that the advertised price to customers

00:51:28 ◼   ► does not include pretty substantial fees.

00:51:31 ◼   ► And then you see them at checkout.

00:51:32 ◼   ► So we have that with sales tax,

00:51:34 ◼   ► we have that with hotel taxes,

00:51:35 ◼   ► and there's a few other things

00:51:36 ◼   ► in various US dysfunctions that have this.

00:51:41 ◼   ► But I think it's interesting,

00:51:42 ◼   ► what if apps were structured that way

00:51:45 ◼   ► where the price that would show on the IAP

00:51:48 ◼   ► was the post-commission price

00:51:50 ◼   ► that the developer actually received,

00:51:52 ◼   ► and then on the checkout screen

00:51:55 ◼   ► it showed Apple's convenience fee.

00:51:57 ◼   ► That's the kind of thing,

00:51:57 ◼   ► of course Apple would never do that unless forced,

00:52:00 ◼   ► but wouldn't it be cool if they were forced?

00:52:03 ◼   ► - I mean, I don't think it would be cool.

00:52:05 ◼   ► I think the price should just be the price.

00:52:07 ◼   ► In the EU I believe they even have sales tax

00:52:10 ◼   ► put into prices to let people know what the bottom line is.

00:52:13 ◼   ► - Most civilized places don't have the crazy rip-off

00:52:16 ◼   ► all of a sudden at the end fees that we have here.

00:52:18 ◼   ► - You're right, but in general,

00:52:20 ◼   ► I think it's unreasonable to ask

00:52:22 ◼   ► to essentially see people's business model exposed.

00:52:24 ◼   ► When you buy a box of cereal,

00:52:25 ◼   ► do you get to see what portion of that goes

00:52:27 ◼   ► to the manufacturer versus which portion goes to the store?

00:52:29 ◼   ► - That's the problem.

00:52:30 ◼   ► That's why, in practice this would never happen,

00:52:32 ◼   ► and it probably shouldn't happen,

00:52:34 ◼   ► but wouldn't it be cool if it did?

00:52:36 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean the other problem is that

00:52:38 ◼   ► if you took a survey and asked how many people think

00:52:40 ◼   ► that when you buy an app you're buying it from Apple,

00:52:41 ◼   ► like that they think every app is made by Apple.

00:52:44 ◼   ► - Everyone thinks this, everyone.

00:52:45 ◼   ► Every regular person who's not a tech podcast listener

00:52:47 ◼   ► thinks that.

00:52:48 ◼   ► - Yeah, or even if they understand that develop,

00:52:50 ◼   ► even if they understand that developers make the app

00:52:52 ◼   ► that they essentially think that developers work for Apple.

00:52:54 ◼   ► As I, I forget, I probably tweeted it or whatever,

00:52:57 ◼   ► but like one of the most profound moments

00:52:59 ◼   ► that I can remember, like the tectonic shift

00:53:02 ◼   ► in the landscape of the tech world that I'm in

00:53:05 ◼   ► was when Apple announced the App Store

00:53:08 ◼   ► and had like a, you know,

00:53:09 ◼   ► look how much money we paid for developers.

00:53:11 ◼   ► Like even before, it was like essentially developers

00:53:13 ◼   ► who had previously been selling their applications

00:53:16 ◼   ► to customers would receive money from customers.

00:53:19 ◼   ► And as soon as Apple announced the App Store

00:53:21 ◼   ► and it became popular and Apple started bragging about it,

00:53:23 ◼   ► it was so clear that the world has changed.

00:53:25 ◼   ► Developers previously, you would receive money

00:53:27 ◼   ► from your customers.

00:53:29 ◼   ► Now you will never receive money from your customers.

00:53:31 ◼   ► Your checks will be signed by Apple.

00:53:33 ◼   ► So even though we don't actually work for Apple

00:53:36 ◼   ► as developers or whatever, the bottom line is,

00:53:37 ◼   ► hey, when you get money, where does it come from?

00:53:40 ◼   ► Who signs those checks?

00:53:41 ◼   ► The answer is Apple.

00:53:42 ◼   ► Apple gives you your money.

00:53:44 ◼   ► They're not your customers, they're Apple customers.

00:53:45 ◼   ► Apple gives you the money, right?

00:53:46 ◼   ► You don't, and I know it's just like, well, you know,

00:53:49 ◼   ► Cheerios, General Mills gets money from like, you know,

00:53:52 ◼   ► the supermarket or whatever, but like still,

00:53:54 ◼   ► it's just such a profound difference where, you know,

00:53:56 ◼   ► there's a new middle party that came in there

00:53:59 ◼   ► that they deal with the customer, they keep the customer,

00:54:02 ◼   ► they have total control and they give you whatever money

00:54:04 ◼   ► they feel like giving you.

00:54:06 ◼   ► And again, that might just seem like not profound,

00:54:09 ◼   ► that's just the way that retail works,

00:54:10 ◼   ► but it was such a fundamental shift in the,

00:54:12 ◼   ► particularly the Mac developer community,

00:54:14 ◼   ► to no longer be getting money from your customers.

00:54:16 ◼   ► And I feel like the Ticketmaster thing,

00:54:18 ◼   ► like obviously, yes, they wanna advertise the lower price

00:54:21 ◼   ► as it come on or whatever, but the thing to understand

00:54:22 ◼   ► about Ticketmaster is their monopoly power grew over time.

00:54:26 ◼   ► So in the beginning, it was just Ticketmaster

00:54:28 ◼   ► would take whatever their cut is

00:54:29 ◼   ► and that was built into the price, right?

00:54:31 ◼   ► But then they started doing things online

00:54:33 ◼   ► and then you can add the tack

00:54:34 ◼   ► on a little online convenience fee

00:54:35 ◼   ► because online is special somehow

00:54:37 ◼   ► and then Ticketmaster, as it amassed power,

00:54:39 ◼   ► slowly just turned the dial on those fees

00:54:42 ◼   ► to the point where they're so significant,

00:54:44 ◼   ► they're like, well, why is that not included?

00:54:45 ◼   ► Because if we see it as a convenience fee of like $1.50,

00:54:48 ◼   ► we all hate it and it's stupid, but we're like, whatever,

00:54:50 ◼   ► but when it's $40, right,

00:54:51 ◼   ► when the percentage starts going up,

00:54:52 ◼   ► it's like, how did this happen?

00:54:54 ◼   ► How did this cancerous tumor of fees grow?

00:54:57 ◼   ► It's like, well, it used to be small

00:54:59 ◼   ► and that's why they would tack it on at the end,

00:55:00 ◼   ► but now it's a significant portion of the price

00:55:02 ◼   ► because they just keep increasing it

00:55:04 ◼   ► and what are you gonna do?

00:55:05 ◼   ► You can't buy tickets anywhere else

00:55:06 ◼   ► and everyone has to deal with Ticketmaster, so yeah.

00:55:08 ◼   ► - But it is interesting though,

00:55:09 ◼   ► like why aren't ticket prices just advertised

00:55:13 ◼   ► with this fee built in

00:55:14 ◼   ► and why do customers even have to see this?

00:55:17 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, I guess it's probably

00:55:18 ◼   ► to give Ticketmaster flexibility,

00:55:20 ◼   ► like there's probably laws about advertised price

00:55:22 ◼   ► versus whatever and itemization.

00:55:24 ◼   ► There's another law going through Congress,

00:55:26 ◼   ► I forget if it passed or whatever,

00:55:27 ◼   ► about like broadband and how broadband does a similar thing

00:55:30 ◼   ► where they advertise, you pay this number of dollars a month

00:55:33 ◼   ► for this speed or whatever,

00:55:34 ◼   ► then they tack on fees at the end

00:55:36 ◼   ► and the new law is essentially,

00:55:37 ◼   ► what are they calling it, like stupid analogies

00:55:39 ◼   ► that our legislature loves,

00:55:41 ◼   ► the nutrition labels for broadband.

00:55:43 ◼   ► It'll be essentially requirements

00:55:44 ◼   ► where you have to show what all the fees will be upfront

00:55:47 ◼   ► and so you can't advertise a $50 thing

00:55:49 ◼   ► and then when the people get their first bill,

00:55:50 ◼   ► they see 20 fees stuck onto the end at double the price.

00:55:54 ◼   ► You can still have those fees

00:55:55 ◼   ► and they can still be as big as you want,

00:55:57 ◼   ► but you at least need to show the customer

00:55:59 ◼   ► what all those fees are going to be

00:56:01 ◼   ► and so I think that law just passed

00:56:03 ◼   ► or is wending its way through.

00:56:04 ◼   ► So that's progress at least,

00:56:06 ◼   ► like I think it's fine to have all these fees

00:56:09 ◼   ► as long as there is transparency about it.

00:56:11 ◼   ► All you need is actual competition in the market

00:56:14 ◼   ► because that will-- - Imagine.

00:56:16 ◼   ► - 'Cause then Ticketmaster's ability to add $40

00:56:19 ◼   ► to your ticket price would be impaired

00:56:21 ◼   ► if there was another company

00:56:22 ◼   ► that would also sell you tickets online

00:56:24 ◼   ► that only added $30.

00:56:26 ◼   ► - Aye, aye, aye.

00:56:27 ◼   ► I hate Ticketmaster so much.

00:56:29 ◼   ► You know, Michaela who's six has been in a kick of

00:56:32 ◼   ► I hate this, I hate that

00:56:33 ◼   ► and she's normally a very happy, agreeable child,

00:56:35 ◼   ► but you know, she's really emphatic

00:56:37 ◼   ► when she doesn't like something.

00:56:38 ◼   ► I've been trying to break her of I hate.

00:56:41 ◼   ► I don't love phrasing things that way.

00:56:43 ◼   ► It's not very tasteful and it's a bit dramatic.

00:56:46 ◼   ► - Would you say you hate it?

00:56:47 ◼   ► - You wouldn't be the first parent in the world

00:56:49 ◼   ► to try to get your kid not to say hate.

00:56:52 ◼   ► Hate's a strong word.

00:56:53 ◼   ► - Exactly, exactly.

00:56:54 ◼   ► - Are you gonna have her say 80 double hockey sticks?

00:56:56 ◼   ► - Yeah. (laughing)

00:56:58 ◼   ► But I will tell you right now, I freaking hate Ticketmaster.

00:57:02 ◼   ► God, do I hate them so much.

00:57:05 ◼   ► Anyway.

00:57:06 ◼   ► - Setting a good example for your children.

00:57:07 ◼   ► - I mean, do you think, is there any,

00:57:10 ◼   ► like what companies in America do you think

00:57:12 ◼   ► are more hated than Ticket, like maybe like Monsanto?

00:57:14 ◼   ► Like what, like it takes a lot,

00:57:16 ◼   ► like the tobacco companies maybe?

00:57:18 ◼   ► - Like Halliburton used to be back in the day.

00:57:21 ◼   ► Maybe Comcast, Comcast at various times.

00:57:23 ◼   ► - Oh, that's a good one.

00:57:25 ◼   ► - Although I feel like Comcast has gotten better.

00:57:28 ◼   ► - Excuse me, it's Xfinity now, so it's totally different.

00:57:30 ◼   ► - Yeah, I know.

00:57:32 ◼   ► You know when a company has to change its name

00:57:33 ◼   ► so people hate it so much that it's a bad sign.

00:57:35 ◼   ► - Intellectual ventures.

00:57:37 ◼   ► - Yeah, there are more hated companies that are obscure.

00:57:40 ◼   ► Like Intellectual Ventures is probably more hated

00:57:41 ◼   ► but nobody knows they exist, right?

00:57:42 ◼   ► So for big companies like Ticketmaster and Comcast,

00:57:45 ◼   ► if you don't see live music,

00:57:46 ◼   ► you don't probably think about Ticketmaster either.

00:57:48 ◼   ► - Ay yi yi, that makes me so mad.

00:57:50 ◼   ► All right, moving on.

00:57:52 ◼   ► It looks like the iPhone 16,

00:57:54 ◼   ► we are definitely getting into rumor season.

00:57:56 ◼   ► iPhone 16, 16 Plus rumored to feature

00:57:58 ◼   ► increased eight gigabytes of RAM.

00:58:00 ◼   ► This is coming from MacRumors

00:58:01 ◼   ► from actually a few months ago now.

00:58:03 ◼   ► The iPhone 15, the 15 that is available today

00:58:07 ◼   ► has six gigs, 15 Plus six gigs,

00:58:09 ◼   ► 15 Pro and Pro Max eight gigs.

00:58:12 ◼   ► The rumored iPhone 16 will have eight gigs across the board.

00:58:16 ◼   ► 16, 16 Plus 16 Pro and 16 Pro Max.

00:58:19 ◼   ► So that's a difference from 15 and 15 Plus

00:58:22 ◼   ► to 16 and 16 Plus of six to eight gigs.

00:58:26 ◼   ► And I don't have too much to say about this.

00:58:28 ◼   ► I think John, you wanted to say something about it

00:58:30 ◼   ► but I will note very quickly that I have noticed,

00:58:33 ◼   ► particularly on my 15 Pro Max

00:58:35 ◼   ► and the fact that it's a Max is irrelevant in this context,

00:58:37 ◼   ► I see evictions due to memory almost never.

00:58:42 ◼   ► What I mean by that is I will go back to an app

00:58:44 ◼   ► that I haven't run in possibly 48 hours

00:58:47 ◼   ► and it comes up so fast, like either,

00:58:51 ◼   ► maybe it's been, what's the word I'm looking for,

00:58:53 ◼   ► where it's been charged up in the background,

00:58:55 ◼   ► not charged up, you know what I'm,

00:58:57 ◼   ► hydrated, hydrated, that's what I'm looking for.

00:58:58 ◼   ► It's been hydrated in the background

00:59:00 ◼   ► and so maybe that's what I'm seeing

00:59:02 ◼   ► and I'm attributing this to an overabundance of RAM

00:59:05 ◼   ► and really it's just iOS being good at pre-hydrating

00:59:08 ◼   ► and getting things ready in the background.

00:59:10 ◼   ► Or what it feels like anyway is just that

00:59:14 ◼   ► I really have a ton of RAM in this phone

00:59:15 ◼   ► and I don't personally ever hit a scenario

00:59:18 ◼   ► where evictions are happening,

00:59:20 ◼   ► where the phone is saying, oh well,

00:59:21 ◼   ► you haven't run, you know, ivory,

00:59:23 ◼   ► which of course I'm running constantly,

00:59:24 ◼   ► but for the sake of discussion,

00:59:25 ◼   ► you have run ivory in 16 hours,

00:59:28 ◼   ► we're just gonna pump that from memory

00:59:29 ◼   ► 'cause we need that memory for something else.

00:59:31 ◼   ► I feel like I'm seeing that very rarely these days.

00:59:35 ◼   ► - Yeah, so the reason I put this in here

00:59:36 ◼   ► way back in January, I was a bit lurking

00:59:38 ◼   ► and I hoisted it up, is simply to note

00:59:41 ◼   ► that we are at the moment where every,

00:59:44 ◼   ► you know, current model iPhone, the iPhone 16 or whatever,

00:59:47 ◼   ► will come with as much base RAM as the low-end Macs.

00:59:50 ◼   ► Oh my God. - Oh, that's so bad.

00:59:52 ◼   ► - How soon before every new iPhone you can buy

00:59:56 ◼   ► has more base RAM than say a MacBook Air?

00:59:59 ◼   ► - Oh my God. - Because apparently,

01:00:01 ◼   ► Apple will increase the RAM inside its iPhones,

01:00:04 ◼   ► but they will not increase the RAM inside the Macs.

01:00:08 ◼   ► And like you mentioned about, you know,

01:00:11 ◼   ► taking an app that hasn't been running in two days

01:00:13 ◼   ► and seeing that it's basically still in RAM

01:00:14 ◼   ► or still able to come back online real fast,

01:00:17 ◼   ► the thing is, the phones,

01:00:20 ◼   ► because of the way they're designed

01:00:22 ◼   ► and, you know, the size of the screen,

01:00:24 ◼   ► we don't ask them to do as much as we ask a Mac,

01:00:29 ◼   ► simply because on the Mac,

01:00:31 ◼   ► when you have multiple apps running at the same time,

01:00:33 ◼   ► they can all be on the screen at the same time.

01:00:35 ◼   ► You can have five apps on the screen at the same time,

01:00:38 ◼   ► which you expect to update their display or whatever,

01:00:42 ◼   ► like the display is bigger,

01:00:43 ◼   ► the windowing system lets you do that.

01:00:45 ◼   ► And if these two things,

01:00:47 ◼   ► if Apple thinks eight gigs of RAM is appropriate

01:00:49 ◼   ► for the lowest end iPhone 16,

01:00:51 ◼   ► which you can only see one or two or maybe three apps

01:00:54 ◼   ► on the screen at the same time,

01:00:56 ◼   ► depending on the dynamic island and picture in picture

01:00:57 ◼   ► and so on and so forth,

01:00:59 ◼   ► whereas a MacBook Air with a much bigger screen

01:01:02 ◼   ► where you could see five apps on screen,

01:01:04 ◼   ► six apps, eight apps,

01:01:05 ◼   ► like depending on what portion of windows are visible,

01:01:08 ◼   ► like the Mac should have more RAM,

01:01:10 ◼   ► not because it's physically bigger

01:01:13 ◼   ► or because you can do more things at the same time with it.

01:01:17 ◼   ► Like it's multitasking model is different than the phone.

01:01:21 ◼   ► And I think it should be different than the phone.

01:01:22 ◼   ► I wouldn't, to be clear,

01:01:23 ◼   ► I don't want the Mac to go to the phone's multitasking model

01:01:25 ◼   ► where it kills apps in the background and restores them

01:01:27 ◼   ► and transparently and all that.

01:01:28 ◼   ► Oh, Apple has tried to do a bunch of technologies

01:01:31 ◼   ► that help the Mac be more like that.

01:01:33 ◼   ► All I'm gonna say is eight gigs of RAM,

01:01:36 ◼   ► it's time for Apple to bump that.

01:01:38 ◼   ► Do they need to bump it to 16?

01:01:39 ◼   ► Of course, I would love that,

01:01:40 ◼   ► but something more than eight.

01:01:42 ◼   ► Apparently the phone is going onesie twosie,

01:01:43 ◼   ► going from six to eight,

01:01:44 ◼   ► maybe they'll go to 10 next year or the year after, right?

01:01:48 ◼   ► But it's time.

01:01:49 ◼   ► Like there's that graph that I think we talked about

01:01:52 ◼   ► on past shows that somebody said it was like

01:01:54 ◼   ► how much RAM is in the base Apple laptop over time

01:01:58 ◼   ► and it's like the slope that goes up

01:01:59 ◼   ► and as soon as Tim Cook becomes CEO, it flatlines.

01:02:02 ◼   ► And it's not just like,

01:02:03 ◼   ► oh, well, he made the RAM stop or whatever.

01:02:04 ◼   ► Like there are units who made it

01:02:05 ◼   ► like there's a point of diminishing returns.

01:02:08 ◼   ► - Tim Cook stopped the RAM.

01:02:10 ◼   ► You're able to do more in the eight gigs of RAM

01:02:12 ◼   ► or eight gigs was sufficient

01:02:13 ◼   ► for the things that most people do with their laptops

01:02:15 ◼   ► and nothing new has come along to force the change

01:02:17 ◼   ► in that like local AI or something that hasn't really, right?

01:02:19 ◼   ► Like I don't expect the slope

01:02:21 ◼   ► to continue at the same angle forever,

01:02:24 ◼   ► but I also don't expect it to be flat

01:02:26 ◼   ► for 15 years or whatever.

01:02:28 ◼   ► Like the phones certainly haven't been, right?

01:02:31 ◼   ► The phones have been creeping up in the amount of RAM

01:02:33 ◼   ► and those are portable mobile devices

01:02:36 ◼   ► that generally cost less than the MacBooks

01:02:38 ◼   ► that people buy as well, by the way.

01:02:41 ◼   ► It's, Apple needs to increase the RAM on their Macs.

01:02:43 ◼   ► I don't know when it's gonna happen, but yeah,

01:02:44 ◼   ► this is, we're at a possible inflection point here

01:02:48 ◼   ► where the phones will have more RAM than the base model Macs.

01:02:52 ◼   ► - Hey, but you know, there's good news.

01:02:55 ◼   ► Installing rogue Amoeba apps is now a lot easier.

01:02:57 ◼   ► This is wildly unrelated, of course,

01:02:59 ◼   ► but we use the wonderful audio hijack to record our audio.

01:03:04 ◼   ► We were using Piezo or I was using Piezo

01:03:06 ◼   ► many, many years ago.

01:03:07 ◼   ► I use Fission for some things from every now and again.

01:03:11 ◼   ► And one of the only crummy things about using audio hijack,

01:03:15 ◼   ► which generally gets my highest recommendation,

01:03:17 ◼   ► we are friends with several rogue Amoeba people,

01:03:19 ◼   ► but truly it's incredible.

01:03:20 ◼   ► It is an amazing app, but up until very recently,

01:03:25 ◼   ► the dance you had to go through,

01:03:27 ◼   ► particularly on Apple Silicon,

01:03:28 ◼   ► but it was true of even Intel models,

01:03:30 ◼   ► the dance you had to go through

01:03:31 ◼   ► in order to install their audio capture engine,

01:03:33 ◼   ► which is the thing that lets you capture audio,

01:03:36 ◼   ► it was bananas.

01:03:37 ◼   ► You had to reboot not once, not twice,

01:03:39 ◼   ► but I think thrice in order to do it.

01:03:41 ◼   ► It was absolutely out of control.

01:03:43 ◼   ► And as of very, very recently, in fact,

01:03:47 ◼   ► sometime this month, reading from their own blog,

01:03:50 ◼   ► audio hijack has now been updated

01:03:51 ◼   ► to provide our new installer free setup

01:03:53 ◼   ► on Mac OS 14.4 and up.

01:03:55 ◼   ► Just as we showed off last month

01:03:56 ◼   ► with our recent Piezo update,

01:03:57 ◼   ► you can now get started using audio hijack nearly instantly.

01:03:59 ◼   ► There's no need to restart your Mac,

01:04:01 ◼   ► use recovery mode or even enter a password.

01:04:03 ◼   ► I have to assume that Apple provided some new APIs

01:04:05 ◼   ► or something or maybe gave them some sort of entitlement

01:04:07 ◼   ► or something like that, but this is excellent

01:04:10 ◼   ► because it was ornerous and just user hostile.

01:04:13 ◼   ► And it wasn't Rogue Amita's fault,

01:04:14 ◼   ► as far as anyone could tell.

01:04:15 ◼   ► It was Apple's fault.

01:04:16 ◼   ► - No, they were doing the best they could

01:04:17 ◼   ► with what the system threw at them.

01:04:19 ◼   ► - Yep, so I'm very happy for this.

01:04:22 ◼   ► - Yeah, you can see the explanation they put

01:04:23 ◼   ► on their website, but it's not just like,

01:04:25 ◼   ► oh, you only have to do one restart

01:04:27 ◼   ► or you just have to do, you go into accessibility

01:04:29 ◼   ► or permissions and system settings or whatever.

01:04:32 ◼   ► It's like, you don't have to do anything.

01:04:33 ◼   ► It has gone from the most complicated install

01:04:36 ◼   ► that you can imagine that was scary and technical

01:04:38 ◼   ► and require you to change security settings

01:04:40 ◼   ► and reboot seven times, whatever, to,

01:04:42 ◼   ► oh, there's just none of that anymore.

01:04:44 ◼   ► Just load the app.

01:04:45 ◼   ► And I think that's great because surely

01:04:48 ◼   ► that required some cooperation from Apple.

01:04:50 ◼   ► 'Cause if Rogue Amita could have done it before

01:04:52 ◼   ► or was using some weird hack that like, you know,

01:04:54 ◼   ► exploited a security flaw in the operating system,

01:04:56 ◼   ► we would hear about it and it would be closed by now.

01:04:58 ◼   ► So whatever has gone on here, it is such a change

01:05:01 ◼   ► from like the worst install experience

01:05:03 ◼   ► to like the same experience as text edit.

01:05:06 ◼   ► So it's an amazing update and it gives me some faith

01:05:12 ◼   ► that if you wait long enough, like five to 10 years,

01:05:17 ◼   ► that maybe Apple will actually give you APIs that you need.

01:05:19 ◼   ► And we've talked about this about iOS and iPad us forever.

01:05:23 ◼   ► What Audio Hijack does, sort of be able to be

01:05:26 ◼   ► like a switching station slash recorder for audio

01:05:29 ◼   ► that happens on the system is such a useful function

01:05:32 ◼   ► and so essential for people who work with audio

01:05:35 ◼   ► on their devices like we do, that it makes the Mac

01:05:39 ◼   ► so much more powerful than the other device.

01:05:41 ◼   ► And we're like, why aren't there APIs like this

01:05:42 ◼   ► on iOS and iPad OS?

01:05:44 ◼   ► And it was difficult to have optimism because back when,

01:05:48 ◼   ► it's like, well, you can do it on that a Mac, but man,

01:05:50 ◼   ► look at what Rogue Amita has to do.

01:05:52 ◼   ► Do you make that happen on the Mac?

01:05:53 ◼   ► It used to be easy to do on the Mac

01:05:54 ◼   ► because it was less secure and it was more open

01:05:57 ◼   ► to things like this and you can run kernel extensions

01:05:59 ◼   ► and yada, yada, yada, but it just got harder and harder.

01:06:01 ◼   ► We're like, this is going in the wrong direction.

01:06:02 ◼   ► We want these APIs to be on iPad and iOS,

01:06:05 ◼   ► but on the Mac where we have them,

01:06:07 ◼   ► it's getting harder and harder for them to even exist there.

01:06:09 ◼   ► And this is a welcome turn on the other direction,

01:06:11 ◼   ► which is like, now it is way easier to do on the Mac

01:06:16 ◼   ► and also more secure than it was in the past,

01:06:18 ◼   ► thanks to presumably cooperation from Apple.

01:06:21 ◼   ► So this gives me some more hope that maybe they'll realize

01:06:23 ◼   ► that some of the other operating systems they have,

01:06:25 ◼   ► like say an iPad is gonna ship with an M4 in it.

01:06:28 ◼   ► Maybe that should be able to do similar things.

01:06:31 ◼   ► It would be great to see that functionality up here

01:06:34 ◼   ► on non Mac platforms.

01:06:37 ◼   ► - All right, let's do some Ask ATP

01:06:39 ◼   ► and let's start with Scott McCauley who writes,

01:06:43 ◼   ► "As someone who is about to buy an M3 MacBook Air

01:06:45 ◼   ► "to replace a 2019 Intel MacBook Pro,

01:06:48 ◼   ► "I noticed the latest German leak about the AI enabled M4."

01:06:52 ◼   ► That's kind of tangential to what we were just talking about.

01:06:54 ◼   ► "I know new tech is always around the corner

01:06:56 ◼   ► "and I usually don't worry so much about future proofing,

01:06:58 ◼   ► "but in this case, I'm wondering if there's possibly

01:07:00 ◼   ► "something more qualitatively meaningful

01:07:01 ◼   ► "about this next gen release that should cause me

01:07:03 ◼   ► "to hold off another year.

01:07:05 ◼   ► "My two cents, especially if you're coming from Intel,

01:07:07 ◼   ► "hell no, you upgrade and you upgrade now.

01:07:10 ◼   ► "The best I could do is meet you in the middle

01:07:12 ◼   ► "and say wait for WWDC just in case something happens,

01:07:16 ◼   ► "but I doubt it will.

01:07:18 ◼   ► "If it were me, I would upgrade immediately."

01:07:20 ◼   ► Marco, what do you think?

01:07:21 ◼   ► - You know, when we hear things like,

01:07:23 ◼   ► this will be made for AI or this will support AI,

01:07:26 ◼   ► this will be a big upgrade for AI,

01:07:30 ◼   ► that kind of thing doesn't usually happen

01:07:32 ◼   ► within the same product line in one year.

01:07:34 ◼   ► It's generally speaking, that's marketing focus.

01:07:38 ◼   ► When you look at what does it mean for a computer

01:07:41 ◼   ► to support AI or to be good at AI,

01:07:44 ◼   ► I mean, these days it mostly means it has a web browser

01:07:47 ◼   ► because most important AI developments

01:07:49 ◼   ► are happening now remotely on servers.

01:07:51 ◼   ► And so any laptop with a web browser

01:07:53 ◼   ► can access things like ChatGPT

01:07:55 ◼   ► and all the fun models like that.

01:07:57 ◼   ► If you're talking about running models locally,

01:07:59 ◼   ► what you're generally talking about is

01:08:02 ◼   ► having custom acceleration hardware

01:08:05 ◼   ► that is good at running models.

01:08:07 ◼   ► That can be the neural engine, that can be the GPUs,

01:08:09 ◼   ► in some cases it can be both.

01:08:12 ◼   ► It depends on the model, it depends on the AI,

01:08:13 ◼   ► but what we're probably looking at here,

01:08:16 ◼   ► like if somebody says the focus on the M4

01:08:19 ◼   ► is gonna be more AI capability,

01:08:21 ◼   ► what that probably means is more cores

01:08:24 ◼   ► in the neural engine or more advancements in the GPU.

01:08:27 ◼   ► But when you're looking at M3 versus M4,

01:08:31 ◼   ► you're still talking about the same,

01:08:33 ◼   ► probably the same process size in terms of manufacturing

01:08:36 ◼   ► or at least a very similar process to manufacture it.

01:08:39 ◼   ► You're still talking about probably the same

01:08:41 ◼   ► rough physical chip size,

01:08:43 ◼   ► so there's not really a ton of room on the chip

01:08:47 ◼   ► to make massively more GPU cores,

01:08:50 ◼   ► massively more neural engine space and neural engine cores.

01:08:54 ◼   ► This is the best time for all this pounding

01:08:55 ◼   ► to be happening behind me.

01:08:56 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:08:58 ◼   ► This is the most I've said the whole show

01:08:59 ◼   ► and this is when they're pounding stuff into the wall.

01:09:01 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:09:02 ◼   ► - I thought I heard you like mic stand jostling,

01:09:05 ◼   ► so I'm kinda glad you acknowledged it.

01:09:06 ◼   ► - Anyway, so M3 to M4,

01:09:09 ◼   ► you're talking about the same process roughly,

01:09:11 ◼   ► if not exactly the same.

01:09:13 ◼   ► You're talking about the same approximate size

01:09:15 ◼   ► and power usage of the chip.

01:09:16 ◼   ► So you're not gonna have massive differences

01:09:19 ◼   ► that like the M3 just can't do something really important

01:09:22 ◼   ► that the M4 can do,

01:09:24 ◼   ► or the M4's not gonna be three times as fast for AI.

01:09:28 ◼   ► It's not gonna be that level of difference.

01:09:30 ◼   ► The M4 will probably have more of everything,

01:09:33 ◼   ► more CPU power, more GPU power, more neural engine capacity.

01:09:37 ◼   ► Yes, it'll have all those things,

01:09:38 ◼   ► and they will, I'm sure, market it as a big AI thing,

01:09:41 ◼   ► and it will be good at running local AI models

01:09:45 ◼   ► relative to PC hardware in the same performance

01:09:48 ◼   ► and wattage class, I'm sure.

01:09:51 ◼   ► But relative, between the M3 and the M4,

01:09:54 ◼   ► this is not a like,

01:09:55 ◼   ► you must wait for this kind of boundary probably.

01:09:58 ◼   ► It's much more likely to be a nice incremental boundary

01:10:01 ◼   ► like we've had on the other M chips,

01:10:03 ◼   ► going from M1 to M2 to M3.

01:10:05 ◼   ► Each one of those had like a 15%ish,

01:10:07 ◼   ► kind of roughly, this is better,

01:10:10 ◼   ► but it's not like you don't have to hold off

01:10:12 ◼   ► your entire life to get it.

01:10:13 ◼   ► There will always be the next M chip coming out next year.

01:10:18 ◼   ► Like that will always be the case.

01:10:20 ◼   ► So buy the laptop when you need it.

01:10:23 ◼   ► It'll be a, even the M3 today is a massive upgrade

01:10:27 ◼   ► over your 2019 Intel MacBook Pro.

01:10:30 ◼   ► And so enjoy it, and just buy it.

01:10:32 ◼   ► If you need it now, buy it now,

01:10:33 ◼   ► and have it for the next year.

01:10:35 ◼   ► And when the M4 comes out, if I am totally wrong,

01:10:38 ◼   ► and somehow they've defeated physics,

01:10:40 ◼   ► and they've managed to make the M4 be amazing

01:10:44 ◼   ► at some kind of AI thing that the M3 cannot do,

01:10:47 ◼   ► then you will hear me do some follow up,

01:10:48 ◼   ► and I will eat my words, and you can be right.

01:10:50 ◼   ► But I'm pretty sure I'm gonna be right on this,

01:10:51 ◼   ► so in the meantime, just buy the stupid M3 MacBook Air.

01:10:54 ◼   ► It's an amazing computer, you're gonna love it,

01:10:56 ◼   ► and it'll be able to do everything you need to do.

01:10:58 ◼   ► - Yeah, because this person's coming from Intel,

01:10:59 ◼   ► it's a no brainer.

01:11:00 ◼   ► If they had an M2 and were asking,

01:11:02 ◼   ► it would be a different conversation,

01:11:03 ◼   ► but coming from Intel, buy now.

01:11:04 ◼   ► Especially since the rumor is that the M4 MacBook Air

01:11:06 ◼   ► is towards the end of next year, so forget it, buy now.

01:11:08 ◼   ► But that said, I think it is entirely plausible

01:11:11 ◼   ► for the M4 to be three to four times as fast

01:11:15 ◼   ► in some AI task as the M3.

01:11:17 ◼   ► Not because they've suddenly found more room

01:11:18 ◼   ► on the die or whatever, but for typical Apple reasons,

01:11:20 ◼   ► which is basically, you know, the M4 will have

01:11:24 ◼   ► whatever silicon is slightly more advantageous

01:11:28 ◼   ► to do like modern local on-device AI stuff than the M3,

01:11:33 ◼   ► but then also that has library support,

01:11:35 ◼   ► where Apple will, you know, have optimized versions

01:11:38 ◼   ► of whatever algorithms that it's using

01:11:39 ◼   ► for whatever AI features that it's gonna roll out at WWDC,

01:11:42 ◼   ► and those libraries will take advantage

01:11:45 ◼   ► of the different neural engine or whatever

01:11:48 ◼   ► they're gonna end up rebranding it as if they do

01:11:50 ◼   ► inside the M4, and the M3 and M2 and M1

01:11:54 ◼   ► and maybe even Intel will still be able to do all this stuff,

01:11:56 ◼   ► although maybe not Intel, but they'll still be able

01:11:58 ◼   ► to do all this stuff, but will the library for that,

01:12:03 ◼   ► you know, be optimized as much as the one

01:12:06 ◼   ► that's for the new silicon?

01:12:07 ◼   ► That's the way these things tend to happen,

01:12:09 ◼   ► where Apple says that, you know, on the M4,

01:12:12 ◼   ► it's four times as fast as the M3 at this task, yeah,

01:12:15 ◼   ► because they optimized it in their library

01:12:17 ◼   ► for the specific neural engine that's in the M4,

01:12:20 ◼   ► and the M3 just gets like the old code path

01:12:21 ◼   ► that they had before that is, you know,

01:12:23 ◼   ► it was what it was before, right?

01:12:24 ◼   ► It doesn't mean that the M4 has like four times more space

01:12:28 ◼   ► on the die dedicated to it, it simply means

01:12:29 ◼   ► that Apple is going to optimize for whatever new thing

01:12:33 ◼   ► they're rolling out in silicon,

01:12:34 ◼   ► assuming these rumors are true, right?

01:12:36 ◼   ► In a similar way to when Apple rolled out the neural engine,

01:12:39 ◼   ► the first chips that had the neural engine on the Mac

01:12:41 ◼   ► is like, look how much faster it is

01:12:43 ◼   ► than whatever Intel thing that doesn't have a neural engine,

01:12:45 ◼   ► it's not because the Intel thing

01:12:46 ◼   ► couldn't potentially do that,

01:12:47 ◼   ► it's just that Apple didn't spend time optimizing it for,

01:12:50 ◼   ► you know, or spend any new time optimizing it

01:12:52 ◼   ► for the Intel chips, and the neural engine

01:12:54 ◼   ► was specifically designed by Apple

01:12:56 ◼   ► to run whatever exact library that they built,

01:12:59 ◼   ► like it's the hardware and software built together,

01:13:01 ◼   ► whereas Intel, they just had to take what, you know,

01:13:03 ◼   ► Apple had to take what Intel had available to them,

01:13:05 ◼   ► and then make a library that works with it, right?

01:13:08 ◼   ► So that's always going to be the case

01:13:09 ◼   ► when new silicon comes out,

01:13:10 ◼   ► but Apple's not going to have a big AI splash W2C and say,