Upgrade

00:00:00 ◼   ► (upbeat music)

00:00:02 ◼   ► - From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 501.

00:00:13 ◼   ► Today's show is brought to you by Squarespace

00:00:16 ◼   ► and Ooni Pizza Ovens.

00:00:17 ◼   ► It is February 26th, 2024.

00:00:21 ◼   ► My name is Mike Hurley, I'm joined by Jason Snow.

00:00:23 ◼   ► Hello, Jason.

00:00:25 ◼   ► - Happy February 26th, Mike.

00:00:27 ◼   ► - To all who celebrate.

00:00:29 ◼   ► To all who celebrate, yes.

00:00:30 ◼   ► Whoever they are, wherever they are.

00:00:32 ◼   ► - I have a snow talk question for you.

00:00:34 ◼   ► It comes from Seb.

00:00:35 ◼   ► Seb would like to know,

00:00:36 ◼   ► how much has the video version of Upgrade

00:00:38 ◼   ► complicated the recording process

00:00:40 ◼   ► when you are away from home?

00:00:42 ◼   ► - Hmm, hmm.

00:00:44 ◼   ► Well, for me, so I was away from home last week.

00:00:47 ◼   ► It only complicated it 'cause I use,

00:00:51 ◼   ► actually, I use for both travel

00:00:53 ◼   ► and for when I'm here at home,

00:00:55 ◼   ► I use camo with my iPhone as my camera.

00:01:00 ◼   ► I don't use continuity camera

00:01:03 ◼   ► because I found that continuity camera

00:01:05 ◼   ► is a little flakier than camo

00:01:07 ◼   ► in the direct wired connection.

00:01:08 ◼   ► I have more control over it.

00:01:10 ◼   ► So I'm using camo instead of just continuity camera.

00:01:13 ◼   ► So the real complication is just that

00:01:17 ◼   ► I have to bring something to put the camera on

00:01:21 ◼   ► to get the proper angle.

00:01:22 ◼   ► And I actually have got now a little setup

00:01:25 ◼   ► where I've got a, I bought a little tripod,

00:01:28 ◼   ► a little cheap tripod on Amazon

00:01:30 ◼   ► that has a like flip out phone holder attachment,

00:01:32 ◼   ► like a glyph, except it's built into it.

00:01:35 ◼   ► And it's got a little tilt head and stuff.

00:01:37 ◼   ► And then it, but I didn't like the legs,

00:01:41 ◼   ► but it's actually standard tripod connector.

00:01:45 ◼   ► And my Insta360 little selfie stick tripod thing

00:01:49 ◼   ► with the, the cheap one on Amazon

00:01:53 ◼   ► didn't have an adjustable,

00:01:54 ◼   ► like you can't lift it up and push it down.

00:01:56 ◼   ► It's only one height,

00:01:57 ◼   ► even though it's got the tilt head and stuff.

00:01:59 ◼   ► The Insta360 combination selfie stick tripod thing,

00:02:03 ◼   ► that's its whole thing is it's super adjustable.

00:02:05 ◼   ► So I actually am using the base from the,

00:02:07 ◼   ► I'm using the Insta360 thing

00:02:09 ◼   ► with the head of the other cheap tripod thing.

00:02:12 ◼   ► And it folds up real nice.

00:02:14 ◼   ► It works with my phone.

00:02:15 ◼   ► It fits on the desk at my mom's house

00:02:18 ◼   ► where I was doing the show last week.

00:02:20 ◼   ► It's great.

00:02:21 ◼   ► So that is my only, I'd say my only real complication

00:02:25 ◼   ► because I got, I got USB cords and I got my phone with me.

00:02:28 ◼   ► So there's a little bit of like lighting issues there.

00:02:31 ◼   ► I'm more concerned about them for when I do Mac break weekly

00:02:33 ◼   ► because that is a video show primarily,

00:02:36 ◼   ► or at least produced that way.

00:02:38 ◼   ► And so I'm a little more concerned about that.

00:02:41 ◼   ► But you know, even then I have a,

00:02:43 ◼   ► I have actually I have a green screen at my mom's house

00:02:46 ◼   ► and the lighting is very good

00:02:47 ◼   ► 'cause there's a wall out the window

00:02:49 ◼   ► that in the morning bounces the light off

00:02:52 ◼   ► of the stucco wall and into my face.

00:02:54 ◼   ► It's actually shamed me about how bad my lighting is

00:02:57 ◼   ► at my studio because the lighting is better

00:03:00 ◼   ► at my mom's house.

00:03:01 ◼   ► It's true.

00:03:02 ◼   ► It is better there.

00:03:03 ◼   ► So other than a little bit of brain power

00:03:06 ◼   ► to like think about it and having invested in that tripod,

00:03:10 ◼   ► which I also use like when I'm in the Studio B

00:03:13 ◼   ► back of my house, I use the same setup.

00:03:15 ◼   ► So, you know, not a lot, but a little bit.

00:03:17 ◼   ► I mean, more than not worrying about it at all.

00:03:20 ◼   ► How about you?

00:03:22 ◼   ► - I like the idea of the green screen at your mom's

00:03:24 ◼   ► 'cause you could just green screen your own office.

00:03:27 ◼   ► - Look at everybody look at last week's Mac break weekly

00:03:30 ◼   ► and it looks like I'm in my office.

00:03:31 ◼   ► - Oh, really?

00:03:33 ◼   ► - Oh yeah.

00:03:33 ◼   ► - Oh, I need to go check that out.

00:03:34 ◼   ► I'm gonna go look at that right now.

00:03:36 ◼   ► - Yeah, I need to build a video loop.

00:03:39 ◼   ► That's my next to do is to build a video loop of my office.

00:03:44 ◼   ► - Why would you need that though?

00:03:45 ◼   ► - Because I've got, so I've got the,

00:03:48 ◼   ► for Mac break, I turn on the lava lamp in my background

00:03:51 ◼   ► and it has little bubbles moving

00:03:52 ◼   ► and there's just a bubble that suspended forever.

00:03:54 ◼   ► And that's the tell.

00:03:56 ◼   ► And I actually kind of love the idea that it's-

00:03:57 ◼   ► - Oh, this is really good, Jason.

00:03:59 ◼   ► - Right?

00:04:00 ◼   ► - This looks really good 'cause you blurred it too, right?

00:04:01 ◼   ► So like-

00:04:02 ◼   ► - Oh yeah, yeah, it's got, I put the bouquet in there

00:04:04 ◼   ► just to make it a little less obvious that it was,

00:04:07 ◼   ► yeah, exactly.

00:04:08 ◼   ► - 'Cause the funny thing is Alex Lindsay,

00:04:11 ◼   ► I assume is sitting in his actual office

00:04:14 ◼   ► and has a really good camera or whatever.

00:04:15 ◼   ► And so he has a bit of a blur, so keep doing it too.

00:04:19 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:04:21 ◼   ► That's very funny to me.

00:04:23 ◼   ► You're just like, well, you can play it that game.

00:04:25 ◼   ► - Yeah, I see, yes, that's right.

00:04:26 ◼   ► I can do that too.

00:04:27 ◼   ► Anyway, I did get a message last week from somebody who said,

00:04:30 ◼   ► "Wow, do you have a new setup?

00:04:31 ◼   ► "You looked great on Mac break weekly."

00:04:32 ◼   ► And I thought, oh boy, I like, it's a worse,

00:04:35 ◼   ► it sounded great.

00:04:36 ◼   ► I'm like, it's a worse microphone.

00:04:38 ◼   ► It's not any different camera.

00:04:39 ◼   ► It's the lighting.

00:04:40 ◼   ► - I will just say like, we didn't mention it

00:04:43 ◼   ► on last week's episode,

00:04:44 ◼   ► but like you were using a different mic.

00:04:45 ◼   ► I hate that mic for you.

00:04:47 ◼   ► Like, and I've said to you before,

00:04:48 ◼   ► it's just because I am used to a very specific sound of Jason

00:04:53 ◼   ► and I don't like it.

00:04:54 ◼   ► I don't even like the USB-C version

00:04:58 ◼   ► of that microphone that you have for you.

00:05:00 ◼   ► - Yeah, no, that's what that is.

00:05:02 ◼   ► So I use, I use the podcasting nerdery,

00:05:06 ◼   ► but like there's a commonly promoted by us,

00:05:11 ◼   ► like best cheap starter podcast mic,

00:05:14 ◼   ► which is the Audio-Technica mic.

00:05:16 ◼   ► And I traveled with that because I made two stops.

00:05:20 ◼   ► I went to LA and I went to my mom's house.

00:05:23 ◼   ► I was gone for six days

00:05:25 ◼   ► and I felt I needed a little more space in my suitcase.

00:05:28 ◼   ► I think in hindsight, I should have just taken the MV7,

00:05:31 ◼   ► which is the, what I have in the back of the house,

00:05:34 ◼   ► which is very similar to the SM7B I have out here.

00:05:38 ◼   ► And I chose not to.

00:05:41 ◼   ► And then I had the moment where I thought, you know,

00:05:43 ◼   ► I could just leave the Audio-Technica mic

00:05:45 ◼   ► at my mom's house with the green screen

00:05:47 ◼   ► and the mic stand and all of these other things

00:05:49 ◼   ► and just kind of leave it there

00:05:50 ◼   ► so I don't need to travel with it.

00:05:51 ◼   ► And I had that thought of like, hmm, no,

00:05:55 ◼   ► I don't want this to be the mic that I use when I'm here.

00:05:58 ◼   ► So in future, I'm gonna travel with the Shure mic,

00:06:02 ◼   ► which is a better sound.

00:06:03 ◼   ► It's more like this one.

00:06:04 ◼   ► - But yeah, to actually answer,

00:06:07 ◼   ► 'cause I got sidetracked by your incredible

00:06:09 ◼   ► audio video. - Background.

00:06:12 ◼   ► Don't tell anybody it's secret.

00:06:13 ◼   ► You'll never know now, never know.

00:06:15 ◼   ► - It has been well-documented, especially in Upgrade Plus.

00:06:18 ◼   ► I have been putting a lot less effort into the video

00:06:23 ◼   ► than Jason has mainly because really,

00:06:26 ◼   ► you are doing a podcast that I think in Mic Break Weekly,

00:06:31 ◼   ► I don't know if incongruously is the word I'm looking for,

00:06:35 ◼   ► but like, Twitch shows go video, the video first,

00:06:38 ◼   ► even though-- - They're TV shows

00:06:39 ◼   ► that have an audio podcast version, but they're TV shows.

00:06:42 ◼   ► They're built as TV shows.

00:06:43 ◼   ► Leo's History, yeah, it's TV.

00:06:45 ◼   ► - So you kind of have to put the effort in there

00:06:48 ◼   ► where we're very much just playing around with stuff.

00:06:51 ◼   ► And the clips really, I think, it's fine.

00:06:56 ◼   ► By the way, I will implore people to check out

00:06:58 ◼   ► either our Instagram, TikTok, or YouTube.

00:07:00 ◼   ► I put links in the show notes.

00:07:01 ◼   ► If you have any of these platforms,

00:07:04 ◼   ► if you not follow us on those, you should.

00:07:05 ◼   ► The short clips, especially, they're just really good fun.

00:07:09 ◼   ► Like, you may think to yourself,

00:07:10 ◼   ► but I've already heard them say that.

00:07:13 ◼   ► It's really fun to watch back our reactions

00:07:16 ◼   ► to the things that we say sometimes,

00:07:17 ◼   ► and our editor, Chip, puts in some fun little details.

00:07:20 ◼   ► Sometimes there's also stuff

00:07:21 ◼   ► that we never actually spoke about in the show,

00:07:23 ◼   ► but we did record it, but it's more interesting as a clip

00:07:27 ◼   ► than it is as being in the show, so they're there for you.

00:07:30 ◼   ► But I have a whole plan that I delayed

00:07:33 ◼   ► because of Vision Pro expenses

00:07:35 ◼   ► to make my setup better for video.

00:07:37 ◼   ► So I can have a whole plan.

00:07:38 ◼   ► I'm very excited about it, actually.

00:07:40 ◼   ► It's gonna look better.

00:07:40 ◼   ► And once I've actually done that,

00:07:42 ◼   ► my video when I travel will be able to be better.

00:07:44 ◼   ► 'Cause previously, I've just been using,

00:07:48 ◼   ► when I was traveling,

00:07:49 ◼   ► I just used my laptop camera, which is terrible.

00:07:52 ◼   ► I hate it.

00:07:53 ◼   ► But I'm actually planning on buying a refurbished iPhone

00:07:56 ◼   ► for my camera in the studio,

00:07:59 ◼   ► and then I'll just take that with me

00:08:01 ◼   ► and have that as my camera for if we record

00:08:04 ◼   ► when I'm traveling.

00:08:05 ◼   ► So it is, just in general, though,

00:08:08 ◼   ► the video has complicated things,

00:08:10 ◼   ► but not to a level that we haven't got used to.

00:08:14 ◼   ► And also, there is kind of like, we're still audio first.

00:08:17 ◼   ► If something goes wrong with a video,

00:08:18 ◼   ► it is kind of just like, oh, well, that's what happened.

00:08:22 ◼   ► - I'd say there's almost an effort cutoff.

00:08:24 ◼   ► Like when I went to my daughter's graduation from college,

00:08:31 ◼   ► I recorded an episode of "Upgrade" in an Airbnb.

00:08:34 ◼   ► And you know what?

00:08:35 ◼   ► It was on the MacBook Air webcam in bad lighting.

00:08:38 ◼   ► It looked terrible, but it crossed the line

00:08:41 ◼   ► of I just, I couldn't do it.

00:08:44 ◼   ► Now I've got a better setup.

00:08:45 ◼   ► Like we're building, I think what I would say

00:08:47 ◼   ► is we're building our setups to get us across the line

00:08:51 ◼   ► of this is appropriate, but it has required me

00:08:54 ◼   ► to buy different tripods and try different setups up.

00:08:58 ◼   ► We'll get there about it.

00:08:59 ◼   ► So not nothing, Seb, not nothing, but it's fine.

00:09:04 ◼   ► Like we're also not overdoing it

00:09:05 ◼   ► because we are a podcast first

00:09:06 ◼   ► and the video is entirely secondary.

00:09:09 ◼   ► That said, I hope that for our podcast listeners

00:09:12 ◼   ► or people who don't listen a lot to podcasts

00:09:14 ◼   ► because they're sort of YouTube first people,

00:09:16 ◼   ► I mean, that's one of the reasons we're doing this

00:09:18 ◼   ► is the short version is we don't intend

00:09:20 ◼   ► to become a YouTube show or anything,

00:09:21 ◼   ► but I do think that there are people out there

00:09:23 ◼   ► who don't get podcasts.

00:09:24 ◼   ► They don't understand it or it doesn't work in their life

00:09:27 ◼   ► and they love YouTube and they have YouTube stuff

00:09:30 ◼   ► on all the time.

00:09:30 ◼   ► And I would like us to make our show available there

00:09:33 ◼   ► and if we can make it available with our faces

00:09:35 ◼   ► instead of just like a logo on a screen,

00:09:38 ◼   ► I think that would be better.

00:09:39 ◼   ► So-

00:09:40 ◼   ► - You know what we should do,

00:09:41 ◼   ► which I don't think we have done, but we should do

00:09:44 ◼   ► is actually tell YouTube that our channel is a podcast.

00:09:48 ◼   ► - Oh, maybe we could do that.

00:09:50 ◼   ► Can we do that?

00:09:51 ◼   ► - I don't know how you do it.

00:09:53 ◼   ► - How do we break that to them?

00:09:54 ◼   ► - It's doable.

00:09:55 ◼   ► Like there is a thing that you can do.

00:09:57 ◼   ► I mean, this is like a weird thing that Cortex is it,

00:09:59 ◼   ► but we didn't do it.

00:10:00 ◼   ► YouTube did it for us.

00:10:01 ◼   ► - Yeah, oh, interesting.

00:10:02 ◼   ► - But I know that there is a way now to kind of be like,

00:10:05 ◼   ► "Hey, this is a podcast."

00:10:06 ◼   ► And what that allows is people can watch the video,

00:10:09 ◼   ► but then they can also tap a button

00:10:10 ◼   ► and it turns off the video

00:10:11 ◼   ► if they just want to listen to us as a podcast.

00:10:13 ◼   ► - So another funny little data point,

00:10:15 ◼   ► a podcast that I mentioned during the upgrade

00:10:17 ◼   ► is "The Rest is History," a podcast I really like

00:10:19 ◼   ► with the two British historians.

00:10:21 ◼   ► I found their YouTube channel while I was traveling

00:10:24 ◼   ► and I watched one of their episodes as a video on YouTube,

00:10:27 ◼   ► because it turns out they have recently started doing

00:10:29 ◼   ► exactly what we're doing,

00:10:31 ◼   ► right down to the fact that one of them is facing left

00:10:33 ◼   ► and one of them is facing right

00:10:34 ◼   ► and they're recording it separately from there.

00:10:36 ◼   ► It's hilarious.

00:10:38 ◼   ► It's like exactly what we're doing.

00:10:41 ◼   ► And I kind of nodded along and I was like,

00:10:43 ◼   ► "Okay, this is great."

00:10:44 ◼   ► Like if I want to watch them in a YouTube context, I can,

00:10:47 ◼   ► but if I just want to listen to their audio episodes,

00:10:49 ◼   ► which is true most of the time, I can do that too.

00:10:52 ◼   ► And then they also do little clips,

00:10:53 ◼   ► which I enjoy.

00:10:55 ◼   ► And the Flop House does that.

00:10:56 ◼   ► They don't post the full episodes, but they post the clips.

00:10:58 ◼   ► And I like watching clips of things I've already heard

00:11:01 ◼   ► because I get to see their faces

00:11:02 ◼   ► and it's the funniest of the jokes from that episode.

00:11:05 ◼   ► And so that's,

00:11:06 ◼   ► I don't mind listening to the funny jokes again.

00:11:08 ◼   ► So yeah, it's, anyway, this is a lot.

00:11:10 ◼   ► I wonder if, is this listener Seb,

00:11:11 ◼   ► who I actually met last weekend in LA?

00:11:14 ◼   ► Maybe it is anyway.

00:11:16 ◼   ► Hi, listener Seb.

00:11:17 ◼   ► - Let's do some Vision Pro follow-up.

00:11:21 ◼   ► So we had an anonymous person write in

00:11:23 ◼   ► and they said, "I work in Apple retail.

00:11:26 ◼   ► From mid-January, we started receiving training

00:11:29 ◼   ► for the Vision Pro on delivering the perfect script

00:11:32 ◼   ► for the demo of the Apple Vision Pro.

00:11:35 ◼   ► There was no training on what light seal numbers mean.

00:11:38 ◼   ► Vision Pros are meant to be picked up in store,

00:11:40 ◼   ► so everyone in theory gets the right light seal

00:11:43 ◼   ► and band size before they come into us.

00:11:45 ◼   ► But we have no guidance on what their sizes

00:11:47 ◼   ► and numbers actually mean.

00:11:49 ◼   ► We just follow a questionnaire to get a new size

00:11:52 ◼   ► if requested, which can change every time

00:11:54 ◼   ► on how subjectively the person answers Seb questions."

00:11:57 ◼   ► - Uh-huh, yeah, you can literally game it.

00:11:59 ◼   ► - Yep.

00:12:01 ◼   ► - 'Cause you can do that online too

00:12:02 ◼   ► when you're doing a return.

00:12:04 ◼   ► 'Cause I got the 14 or whatever and I'm sending it back

00:12:06 ◼   ► because it's just not, or I have sent it back now

00:12:09 ◼   ► because it didn't fit at all.

00:12:10 ◼   ► It really put all the pressure on my cheekbones

00:12:13 ◼   ► and I'm not convinced I have the right size.

00:12:15 ◼   ► I think the 21 is maybe the right size for me,

00:12:18 ◼   ► but I've sort of tried this and failed

00:12:20 ◼   ► and I don't know what I'm gonna do.

00:12:21 ◼   ► But this follows up what we were saying before,

00:12:23 ◼   ► which is lots of focus on the demo

00:12:25 ◼   ► and getting every word right.

00:12:26 ◼   ► And then kind of being at sea

00:12:29 ◼   ► when it comes to the sizing stuff,

00:12:32 ◼   ► which I think they should do a much better job of.

00:12:34 ◼   ► - Yep.

00:12:36 ◼   ► Vision Pro units are cracking.

00:12:38 ◼   ► - (gasps)

00:12:39 ◼   ► Crack gate.

00:12:40 ◼   ► - Crack gate.

00:12:41 ◼   ► - How is a Vision Pro like a G4 Cube?

00:12:44 ◼   ► - Crack gate.

00:12:45 ◼   ► - Cracks.

00:12:46 ◼   ► - Crack gate.

00:12:47 ◼   ► - So there's been a bunch of articles written about this.

00:12:49 ◼   ► It's, I believe, started with a selection of users

00:12:53 ◼   ► on the Vision Pro subreddit,

00:12:55 ◼   ► posting that they have cracks along the center

00:12:57 ◼   ► of the front screens at their Vision Pro.

00:12:59 ◼   ► So right in, basically right in the middle.

00:13:02 ◼   ► No one obviously knows at this point why this is happening.

00:13:06 ◼   ► It appears to be, you would assume

00:13:07 ◼   ► some kind of manufacturing issue.

00:13:10 ◼   ► One of the things to me

00:13:11 ◼   ► that really kind of lent credence to this,

00:13:14 ◼   ► because you never really know what's going on

00:13:16 ◼   ► with this kind of stuff,

00:13:18 ◼   ► is it actually happened to Engadget's review unit as well.

00:13:21 ◼   ► The same crack.

00:13:22 ◼   ► So it's essentially on the middle of the front glass

00:13:25 ◼   ► is where it's happening.

00:13:26 ◼   ► There's a bunch of images in the Verge article

00:13:29 ◼   ► and the Engadget article that I put in the show notes.

00:13:32 ◼   ► But yeah, it's definitely making me,

00:13:34 ◼   ► every time I pick up my Vision Pro in the morning,

00:13:36 ◼   ► just taking a look.

00:13:37 ◼   ► Just like, oh, it got the crack.

00:13:38 ◼   ► No, that's great.

00:13:40 ◼   ► There you go, it's happening. - Just give it a look

00:13:41 ◼   ► and check it out.

00:13:42 ◼   ► Yeah, no, I mean, it's 1.0 hardware.

00:13:44 ◼   ► It's incredibly complicated.

00:13:45 ◼   ► I'm actually not surprised.

00:13:47 ◼   ► And I would imagine, I mean, either Apple will say,

00:13:50 ◼   ► look, it doesn't affect your,

00:13:52 ◼   ► we know that it might happen and it doesn't affect it,

00:13:55 ◼   ► or they'll say, we will replace it.

00:13:57 ◼   ► You know, send it to us and we'll replace it or whatever.

00:14:01 ◼   ► - But it does seem like so far,

00:14:02 ◼   ► like with the people that have had it happen,

00:14:04 ◼   ► like it isn't affecting anything, but it's there.

00:14:07 ◼   ► It seems to be, at the moment, mostly a cosmetic issue,

00:14:11 ◼   ► which I think is also good.

00:14:12 ◼   ► Because if something like that happens

00:14:15 ◼   ► and it disrupts the cameras or whatever.

00:14:17 ◼   ► - Nobody wants to see you in this thing anyway.

00:14:19 ◼   ► - Not great.

00:14:20 ◼   ► - No matter what it looks like.

00:14:22 ◼   ► - What's new with your Vision Pro experience?

00:14:26 ◼   ► - Oh, what's new with the Vision Pro?

00:14:28 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:14:29 ◼   ► - So I mentioned I traveled last week.

00:14:30 ◼   ► I mentioned I used it on the plane.

00:14:32 ◼   ► Had the weird errors.

00:14:34 ◼   ► Used it a little bit and Phoenix have used it here too.

00:14:37 ◼   ► Big story for me, I think,

00:14:38 ◼   ► is that I went on the developer beta.

00:14:40 ◼   ► - Oh God, Jason, why?

00:14:42 ◼   ► Why'd you do it?

00:14:43 ◼   ► - You know, because it's my job.

00:14:45 ◼   ► I figured like, okay, let's try it and I can report.

00:14:47 ◼   ► I think the personas are better.

00:14:49 ◼   ► I did a very quick persona capture in Phoenix

00:14:53 ◼   ► when I was not at my best.

00:14:55 ◼   ► And I still think it is a much better representation of me

00:14:58 ◼   ► than the one I was using before.

00:15:01 ◼   ► So I think the personas are better.

00:15:03 ◼   ► However, I'm just gonna say, don't put the beta on people.

00:15:08 ◼   ► The eye tracking and other input stuff

00:15:10 ◼   ► isn't just a total mess.

00:15:11 ◼   ► I can't, I was writing a lot.

00:15:13 ◼   ► I think one of the things that I found

00:15:15 ◼   ► in the vision pro that I like

00:15:16 ◼   ► is that it is another place for me to write.

00:15:18 ◼   ► I can sit on the couch or whatever,

00:15:21 ◼   ► and I can kind of isolate

00:15:23 ◼   ► and just get a screen in front of me

00:15:24 ◼   ► with like runestone on it.

00:15:25 ◼   ► And I can write articles and have things to the side.

00:15:28 ◼   ► But like mostly I'm focused on the thing.

00:15:30 ◼   ► I like that.

00:15:32 ◼   ► It's like writing on the iPad.

00:15:34 ◼   ► I've got a little Bluetooth keyboard.

00:15:35 ◼   ► It's great.

00:15:36 ◼   ► But I kind of can't do it on the developer beta

00:15:39 ◼   ► because eye tracking is all over the place.

00:15:42 ◼   ► Input is all over the place.

00:15:44 ◼   ► I get lots of inaccurate clicks.

00:15:49 ◼   ► Clicks when I'm not moving my fingers together.

00:15:52 ◼   ► My eye tracking is not looking at the right place.

00:15:54 ◼   ► Even if I rerun eye tracking, it just doesn't seem right.

00:15:58 ◼   ► It is kind of broken.

00:16:00 ◼   ► So I'm here to warn you not to do it

00:16:05 ◼   ► because no improved persona is worth this.

00:16:09 ◼   ► - And I am assuming there's kind of no way to go back, right?

00:16:13 ◼   ► - Well, I could put it in reset mode.

00:16:15 ◼   ► Since I have a developer strap, I could actually do that,

00:16:19 ◼   ► but I'm not gonna, I'm just gonna grin and bear it.

00:16:22 ◼   ► And that's, it's fine.

00:16:24 ◼   ► It's fine.

00:16:25 ◼   ► - Oh, I actually, similarly,

00:16:28 ◼   ► I've had some flakiness of eye tracking

00:16:31 ◼   ► and I'm on the shipping version.

00:16:33 ◼   ► Like today I had to redo my eye tracking again

00:16:36 ◼   ► to get it to work.

00:16:37 ◼   ► It just, I would look at something

00:16:40 ◼   ► and it was selected for a second and flick away.

00:16:42 ◼   ► It's like, I couldn't move any windows.

00:16:44 ◼   ► I have also noticed sometimes the system knows

00:16:49 ◼   ► where you're looking, even though it's not highlighting that,

00:16:53 ◼   ► if that makes sense.

00:16:54 ◼   ► So sometimes I've found that I can look at something

00:16:57 ◼   ► and it's not highlighting, but if I pinch,

00:16:59 ◼   ► it will do what I want.

00:17:00 ◼   ► And so I think there was a combo of both things happening.

00:17:04 ◼   ► But once I redid my eye tracking,

00:17:06 ◼   ► it was perfect, like it worked perfectly again.

00:17:10 ◼   ► But I don't know why that's happening, right?

00:17:13 ◼   ► Like, which is just interesting.

00:17:14 ◼   ► It's like, what's changed?

00:17:15 ◼   ► But this is the bleeding edge-ness of this computer.

00:17:19 ◼   ► It's like something, it is perceiving something differently.

00:17:22 ◼   ► I have no idea what it is.

00:17:24 ◼   ► - Yeah, it could be something on your face.

00:17:25 ◼   ► It could be that your hair has grown or been cut

00:17:30 ◼   ► and the fit is a little different.

00:17:32 ◼   ► And so the angle is a little different, right?

00:17:34 ◼   ► Like there's so many things it could be.

00:17:36 ◼   ► - Yep, so I kind of, I'm giving the machine grace, right,

00:17:40 ◼   ► in doing these things and not being like,

00:17:43 ◼   ► oh, this is so annoying,

00:17:44 ◼   ► but it is just a thing that I'm spotting.

00:17:47 ◼   ► I have kind of set on something for me

00:17:50 ◼   ► for where I think this device really works best.

00:17:52 ◼   ► So I leave my Vision Pro at my studio.

00:17:57 ◼   ► I don't take it home because it's just too much weight

00:18:01 ◼   ► to just keep moving backwards and forwards.

00:18:04 ◼   ► So I leave it there.

00:18:05 ◼   ► And so I'm mostly using it when I'm here,

00:18:07 ◼   ► which actually works best for me anyway,

00:18:09 ◼   ► of like a way that I would want to use it.

00:18:11 ◼   ► Like when I'm at home,

00:18:12 ◼   ► I'm either gonna be wanting to spend time with my wife

00:18:15 ◼   ► or be playing video games.

00:18:17 ◼   ► And the Vision Pro is not the right device for me

00:18:19 ◼   ► for either of those things.

00:18:20 ◼   ► And so it would be mostly wasted at home.

00:18:23 ◼   ► And so what I've been doing mostly

00:18:25 ◼   ► is like I'm trying to do my intense work in the mornings

00:18:29 ◼   ► with the Vision Pro on,

00:18:31 ◼   ► and then also just using it sporadically through the day.

00:18:34 ◼   ► And where I've found the device to be the most enjoyable

00:18:37 ◼   ► and the way that I kind of think of it

00:18:39 ◼   ► is the Vision Pro is like the perfect noodling computer,

00:18:42 ◼   ► which from what I mean by that is,

00:18:46 ◼   ► so like there is a point in the day where I say today,

00:18:49 ◼   ► I've done my work in the morning of preparing upgrade,

00:18:52 ◼   ► which is like the biggest job I do on a Monday.

00:18:55 ◼   ► And then I have one meeting,

00:18:57 ◼   ► then I have the stretch of like 90 minutes

00:18:59 ◼   ► before I have another meeting.

00:19:02 ◼   ► And so during that time, typically,

00:19:03 ◼   ► I'm just kind of noodling around.

00:19:05 ◼   ► I'm doing this little task here,

00:19:07 ◼   ► reading these messages here in Slack,

00:19:12 ◼   ► looking at this email here or whatever.

00:19:15 ◼   ► And I kind of consider this as like noodling around.

00:19:17 ◼   ► And iPads are really good for this, I find.

00:19:20 ◼   ► You're just like poking around,

00:19:21 ◼   ► you're going from this to this.

00:19:22 ◼   ► Hey, what's going on over here?

00:19:24 ◼   ► The Vision Pro is perfect for this

00:19:25 ◼   ► because you can do all of the noodling

00:19:28 ◼   ► with all of the apps open, right?

00:19:29 ◼   ► And that's what I like about it.

00:19:30 ◼   ► Like I can just set a bunch of apps

00:19:32 ◼   ► and I'm like, what's going on over here?

00:19:34 ◼   ► Oh, can we go check on these tabs?

00:19:36 ◼   ► Oh, like in today,

00:19:37 ◼   ► I was like looking at some home furnishing stuff

00:19:39 ◼   ► and I was like, oh, just like clicking around this website,

00:19:42 ◼   ► which is really nice with the eye tracking,

00:19:44 ◼   ► like, oh, I like that cushion.

00:19:45 ◼   ► This looks nice, that looks nice.

00:19:47 ◼   ► Let me add that to a note, send it to my wife.

00:19:48 ◼   ► Like that kind of work,

00:19:51 ◼   ► the Vision Pro is the best computer I own at it.

00:19:55 ◼   ► Like it's better than an iPad

00:19:56 ◼   ► because it's many iPads, right?

00:19:59 ◼   ► It's like six iPads at once.

00:20:01 ◼   ► - It's many iPads.

00:20:02 ◼   ► So I find for like the intense work stuff,

00:20:05 ◼   ► it's definitely getting the job done,

00:20:07 ◼   ► but still I'm mostly just using the Mac inside of it.

00:20:10 ◼   ► And at that point, it's not that much better.

00:20:14 ◼   ► It's better in some ways worse than others.

00:20:16 ◼   ► I think that this could be improved

00:20:18 ◼   ► by there being a native Google Docs application.

00:20:21 ◼   ► Like I think that will help if and when that ever happens

00:20:24 ◼   ► because using Google Docs in Safari,

00:20:26 ◼   ► while it works is not ideal.

00:20:27 ◼   ► Maybe it will be better,

00:20:28 ◼   ► but I'll probably still prefer my Mac for it.

00:20:32 ◼   ► So I find it to be good at the intense stuff,

00:20:35 ◼   ► but excellent at the kind of noodling around stuff.

00:20:39 ◼   ► - Yeah, I agree with you.

00:20:40 ◼   ► I have the same sort of feelings

00:20:41 ◼   ► that you end up kind of like flipping around

00:20:43 ◼   ► to a bunch of different stuff.

00:20:44 ◼   ► And part of that is what it's good at right now

00:20:47 ◼   ► and what apps are available.

00:20:50 ◼   ► I did watch a movie in it for the incomparable.

00:20:54 ◼   ► I watched most of a movie just that was my homework in it

00:20:58 ◼   ► because it was a bigger screen.

00:21:00 ◼   ► So I was literally sitting in my living room,

00:21:03 ◼   ► not four feet from my 4K TV.

00:21:06 ◼   ► And I was watching it on the Vision Pro instead

00:21:08 ◼   ► 'cause Lauren was gone and I was, why not?

00:21:13 ◼   ► So I did.

00:21:14 ◼   ► And it was nice 'cause it was a huge screen and it was fun.

00:21:18 ◼   ► - There's also an app that I wanted to point people to,

00:21:21 ◼   ► which is television from Sandwich.

00:21:24 ◼   ► This is just- - Yes.

00:21:27 ◼   ► - This is the exact kind of thing that I want to exist

00:21:30 ◼   ► on the Vision Pro because it's just like fun and joyful.

00:21:35 ◼   ► It is an app that currently you can watch media

00:21:39 ◼   ► you've downloaded or media from your iCloud,

00:21:41 ◼   ► but they seem to be working on the ability

00:21:43 ◼   ► to watch streaming services within this app as well,

00:21:47 ◼   ► where you essentially can select a television from history,

00:21:52 ◼   ► from the beginnings of televisions to now.

00:21:55 ◼   ► One of my favorite ones is a wall of televisions

00:21:57 ◼   ► that you can watch media on.

00:21:59 ◼   ► And you essentially watch it like a screen.

00:22:02 ◼   ► - It's a 3D model of televisions from history.

00:22:07 ◼   ► And they exist in space.

00:22:10 ◼   ► They're not like, when I opened this app, I thought,

00:22:13 ◼   ► oh, okay, this is the kind of Vision Pro app

00:22:16 ◼   ► there aren't very many of right now.

00:22:18 ◼   ► And that I thought would be the ones

00:22:20 ◼   ► that would truly take it.

00:22:21 ◼   ► And I understand why they aren't

00:22:23 ◼   ► because it is not something you can do

00:22:25 ◼   ► by converting an iPad app, right?

00:22:27 ◼   ► Or easily, it's much harder.

00:22:30 ◼   ► And so it's a 3D object in 3D space

00:22:34 ◼   ► that then plays a video right now.

00:22:36 ◼   ► - On the screen.

00:22:38 ◼   ► - On the screen, mapped onto the screen of the TV or TVs.

00:22:41 ◼   ► So like I was able to get an old TV with rabbit ears

00:22:44 ◼   ► and place it on my coffee table

00:22:46 ◼   ► and play an old Star Trek episode on it.

00:22:48 ◼   ► I played an old Star Trek episode.

00:22:50 ◼   ► Then I played the Star Wars holiday special.

00:22:53 ◼   ► Then I played an old Dr. Who episode

00:22:55 ◼   ► because I wanted that vibe of old four by three TV set

00:22:59 ◼   ► with rabbit ears.

00:23:00 ◼   ► And it was just kind of delightful.

00:23:02 ◼   ► But I also liked the idea.

00:23:03 ◼   ► I was talking to Dan Sturm who worked on this product,

00:23:06 ◼   ► a friend of the show who works at Sandwich.

00:23:09 ◼   ► And Dan, what I said to Dan was,

00:23:14 ◼   ► this is the kind of app I was hoping for.

00:23:18 ◼   ► And he said, it's just so easy to leave it somewhere,

00:23:22 ◼   ► like off to the side.

00:23:23 ◼   ► And the way it works is like

00:23:24 ◼   ► the audio comes out of it spatially.

00:23:25 ◼   ► It's literally like you're sending a TV set

00:23:28 ◼   ► somewhere in your space.

00:23:29 ◼   ► And then the TV sets there and you can play it.

00:23:32 ◼   ► And what they've said is like the use case here is

00:23:36 ◼   ► you kind of wanna, if you want like some background stuff,

00:23:39 ◼   ► which for some people is super distracting

00:23:41 ◼   ► and for other people it's comfortable.

00:23:43 ◼   ► So this is the idea is like,

00:23:44 ◼   ► you want something playing in the background

00:23:46 ◼   ► off to the side that you can look at

00:23:47 ◼   ► and look back and it's in this little TV.

00:23:49 ◼   ► And like, is it novel?

00:23:50 ◼   ► Yes, it is a novelty app for sure.

00:23:52 ◼   ► But at the same time I look at it and I think,

00:23:54 ◼   ► yeah, that's kind of what I want for something like

00:23:57 ◼   ► broadcasts or other audio apps,

00:24:00 ◼   ► where I kind of wanna put essentially like a radio

00:24:02 ◼   ► or an object that is just kind of emitting

00:24:04 ◼   ► and put it in the corner, put it on a wall

00:24:07 ◼   ► and have it be not,

00:24:09 ◼   ► it doesn't need to be like a vision pro OS window

00:24:13 ◼   ► that's like an iPad app for that part of it.

00:24:15 ◼   ► I just kind of want it to be,

00:24:16 ◼   ► especially if you think about the future of vision OS

00:24:18 ◼   ► and potentially having objects that

00:24:20 ◼   ► permanently live in a space that we all kind of

00:24:24 ◼   ► expect that they will do,

00:24:25 ◼   ► where if I hang this thing in my house, right in this place,

00:24:28 ◼   ► it'll, I can say, keep it here geographically.

00:24:31 ◼   ► This is where I want this thing.

00:24:34 ◼   ► That it opens up a lot of possibilities.

00:24:35 ◼   ► So it's just a fun app.

00:24:39 ◼   ► I really loved having,

00:24:40 ◼   ► I watched most of a Star Trek episode on it, it was great.

00:24:43 ◼   ► - Yeah, I really look forward to when it can,

00:24:45 ◼   ► they've put YouTube in there, which they're working on.

00:24:47 ◼   ► 'Cause you could, you know,

00:24:48 ◼   ► I could have imagined having one of those

00:24:50 ◼   ► like lo-fi beat to chill two things

00:24:52 ◼   ► and just putting it in the corner,

00:24:54 ◼   ► looking over and seeing the image,

00:24:55 ◼   ► but there's music in the space.

00:24:57 ◼   ► This is the kind of stuff that also I hoped would exist.

00:25:01 ◼   ► Just these fun little toys, but they're useful, right?

00:25:04 ◼   ► But they're joyful in a way.

00:25:06 ◼   ► And I think there will be more.

00:25:08 ◼   ► I think that it requires two things for a lot of developers,

00:25:12 ◼   ► which is like time and effort,

00:25:13 ◼   ► well, three things, time, effort,

00:25:15 ◼   ► and a genuine love for the platform,

00:25:18 ◼   ► because the audience is small right now.

00:25:20 ◼   ► And this requires a lot of work, right?

00:25:23 ◼   ► - Also makes me wonder if Vision OS should have something,

00:25:26 ◼   ► and I know they've got a lot on their plate for Vision OS,

00:25:29 ◼   ► but if they should have something

00:25:30 ◼   ► that's sort of like what picture in picture is

00:25:32 ◼   ► on iOS and iPad OS and Mac OS,

00:25:34 ◼   ► which is the ability for apps to say,

00:25:38 ◼   ► you know, knock out, place this video out,

00:25:41 ◼   ► and then the ability for other apps to say,

00:25:43 ◼   ► I'm a player for that, right?

00:25:46 ◼   ► 'Cause imagine if you could do that,

00:25:48 ◼   ► then Sandwich, you know,

00:25:49 ◼   ► Sandwich's television could be a player

00:25:53 ◼   ► for the picture in picture,

00:25:54 ◼   ► and then there wouldn't need to be

00:25:56 ◼   ► compatibility things built into the app.

00:25:59 ◼   ► You could build a player that is like television,

00:26:03 ◼   ► and then all the video apps would just,

00:26:05 ◼   ► you know, you could just send it out to that other app.

00:26:09 ◼   ► I wonder if you could do that,

00:26:10 ◼   ► because it seems very similar

00:26:12 ◼   ► to the picture in picture API.

00:26:13 ◼   ► I would love it, something like that.

00:26:15 ◼   ► But failing that, yeah,

00:26:17 ◼   ► I hope Sandwich builds in some stuff for this.

00:26:19 ◼   ► I'd love, again, it's like,

00:26:22 ◼   ► whether it's them working with various services,

00:26:25 ◼   ► or whether it's third-party apps, maybe,

00:26:27 ◼   ► working with Sandwich, which would also be cool.

00:26:30 ◼   ► Like if you're the developer of Plex,

00:26:32 ◼   ► and you want to come to the Vision Pro,

00:26:34 ◼   ► do you talk to Sandwich and say,

00:26:36 ◼   ► can we license television for our Plex player,

00:26:39 ◼   ► or work with you, or something, right?

00:26:42 ◼   ► Yeah, I love the name, by the way.

00:26:44 ◼   ► It's so silly, right?

00:26:45 ◼   ► Like it's, 'cause a lot of the,

00:26:48 ◼   ► 'cause they're so good, their marketing is just,

00:26:50 ◼   ► obviously they're so good, they're just so good.

00:26:52 ◼   ► And you know, the idea of like, we invented television.

00:26:55 ◼   ► Like, 'cause the, you know, I like it,

00:26:57 ◼   ► and they're very, like, I love it so much.

00:26:59 ◼   ► Imagine object in your space that's playing video on it.

00:27:04 ◼   ► We call it television.

00:27:05 ◼   ► I think if I remember rightly in the video,

00:27:08 ◼   ► there's a television in the room

00:27:10 ◼   ► that they're doing the promo stuff in,

00:27:13 ◼   ► and they're just moving it around,

00:27:14 ◼   ► but it's like an actual TV, it's just, it's fantastic.

00:27:16 ◼   ► We call it television. It's television, so good.

00:27:18 ◼   ► It's just, yes, it's delightful, but also, again,

00:27:21 ◼   ► it is a spatial piece of software.

00:27:27 ◼   ► Now, our friend James, friend of the show, James Thompson,

00:27:30 ◼   ► he's got a first, like, experimental beta of Dice by Peacock

00:27:34 ◼   ► that does this too, right?

00:27:35 ◼   ► Where the dice tray is in your space.

00:27:37 ◼   ► And like, again, it's one of those apps that I go,

00:27:39 ◼   ► ah, yes, here we go, right?

00:27:41 ◼   ► It's software, but it's existing in a space.

00:27:43 ◼   ► This is, not every piece of software

00:27:46 ◼   ► needs to be like that, right?

00:27:47 ◼   ► Like, I don't need Slack to appear in a,

00:27:51 ◼   ► like, in a frame like you could hang it on a wall, right?

00:27:56 ◼   ► I don't need that. I don't need that.

00:27:58 ◼   ► But for some stuff, I think it's a really fun use

00:28:02 ◼   ► of what this product is.

00:28:04 ◼   ► - Yes, I agree.

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00:30:19 ◼   ► Jason, what is that sound?

00:30:23 ◼   ► Can you hear it in the background?

00:30:24 ◼   ► - It's the neighing of horses that have not been fed.

00:30:26 ◼   ► - It sounds like horses because saddle up partner.

00:30:29 ◼   ► It's time to return to the Rumor Roundup

00:30:32 ◼   ► or how I have missed you.

00:30:35 ◼   ► I spent so much time today just going through

00:30:39 ◼   ► my Apple note that I save of links

00:30:42 ◼   ► to just try and pick like, what are we going to talk about?

00:30:45 ◼   ► 'Cause there's basically a month's worth of rumors,

00:30:48 ◼   ► but I've decided to pick out three different areas

00:30:51 ◼   ► that we're going to talk about a little bit today

00:30:53 ◼   ► in Rumor Roundup.

00:30:54 ◼   ► First, Mark Gurman is reporting that iOS 18

00:30:58 ◼   ► could be quote, the biggest update in the company's history

00:31:02 ◼   ► as they ready their release of AI features.

00:31:06 ◼   ► Previous reporting has indicated that some of these features

00:31:09 ◼   ► could include a revamped Siri powered by Apple's own LLM,

00:31:13 ◼   ► as well as AI infusion into the system apps,

00:31:17 ◼   ► stuff like messages and music and the iWork Suite

00:31:20 ◼   ► to try and make them better,

00:31:21 ◼   ► as well as advancements to Xcode to make development easier.

00:31:24 ◼   ► So you're looking at kind of like those co-pilot

00:31:26 ◼   ► kind of features to help with code completion,

00:31:29 ◼   ► as well as app testing as well by using AI.

00:31:32 ◼   ► Apple is also working on making Spotlight better as well,

00:31:36 ◼   ► as Siri, we have a quote here.

00:31:38 ◼   ► "Early designs of the Spotlight overhaul

00:31:41 ◼   ► include using LLMs to answer more complex questions

00:31:44 ◼   ► and the ability to tap deeper into apps

00:31:47 ◼   ► to launch specific functions.

00:31:49 ◼   ► The current version of Spotlight is mostly limited

00:31:51 ◼   ► to launching apps, making basic web searches

00:31:53 ◼   ► and pulling up information."

00:31:55 ◼   ► So I want to get into iOS 18 AI in a bit more detail.

00:32:00 ◼   ► But the first thing I wanted to say is,

00:32:02 ◼   ► is Spotlight a better brand than Siri?

00:32:04 ◼   ► - I mean, maybe, it depends on how badly we think.

00:32:10 ◼   ► 'Cause Siri, so here's the thing,

00:32:12 ◼   ► I know that especially all of us

00:32:14 ◼   ► think about all the issues with Siri,

00:32:16 ◼   ► but wow, more people know Siri.

00:32:18 ◼   ► - They know the name though, right?

00:32:19 ◼   ► And that might be the reason. - Siri, they know the name.

00:32:22 ◼   ► And I think the argument there is that I know people are like,

00:32:24 ◼   ► "Oh, but it's negative, it doesn't work."

00:32:25 ◼   ► It's like, "Yeah, I think you can turn that around."

00:32:27 ◼   ► I think that it's,

00:32:28 ◼   ► I think that the negativity of the Siri brand

00:32:30 ◼   ► is kind of overemphasized and overstated

00:32:33 ◼   ► in our little community.

00:32:35 ◼   ► And that the most important asset is that it's known

00:32:40 ◼   ► in a way that Spotlight is just, is not known.

00:32:42 ◼   ► Now, I mean, I could make the argument

00:32:47 ◼   ► that throwing the Siri name away

00:32:49 ◼   ► and having it be all about Spotlight would be better,

00:32:52 ◼   ► but I don't know, I don't know.

00:32:54 ◼   ► I feel like, I mean, Spotlight brand could get elevated,

00:32:56 ◼   ► but Siri is the brand people know.

00:32:58 ◼   ► - So I agree with you,

00:33:00 ◼   ► and I'm not really advocating for just thinking about it.

00:33:02 ◼   ► 'Cause like Zach has said,

00:33:04 ◼   ► I don't think anybody knows Spotlight as a name,

00:33:06 ◼   ► and that's kind of my point.

00:33:08 ◼   ► So the Siri name is well-known, people are aware of it.

00:33:13 ◼   ► Apple has done a good job of publicizing it.

00:33:16 ◼   ► It's been around for an incredibly long time,

00:33:18 ◼   ► I think like a decade now, right?

00:33:19 ◼   ► Started with like the iPhone 4S or something.

00:33:22 ◼   ► But it hasn't got like a super positive association to it.

00:33:26 ◼   ► Like people are just kind of aware of it.

00:33:27 ◼   ► Like, but I think by and large,

00:33:30 ◼   ► people are ambivalent to it.

00:33:32 ◼   ► Spotlight is also a cool brand name,

00:33:35 ◼   ► and it's another thing that Apple has.

00:33:37 ◼   ► And like, I think it's kind of cool.

00:33:40 ◼   ► The reason I bring this up is just because like Apple's,

00:33:43 ◼   ► the majority of competitors Apple has,

00:33:46 ◼   ► has actually changed their names

00:33:47 ◼   ► with their existing thing, right?

00:33:49 ◼   ► So like Bing is now just co-pilot,

00:33:53 ◼   ► which is just, I think, a great name for the AI stuff.

00:33:58 ◼   ► And Google hilariously introduced the name

00:34:02 ◼   ► and then rebranded it, right?

00:34:03 ◼   ► So Bard became Gemini.

00:34:05 ◼   ► And I just wonder if like, with a big change like this,

00:34:09 ◼   ► is it worth kind of cutting your losses a little bit

00:34:13 ◼   ► because you're about to introduce something

00:34:16 ◼   ► that in theory is so dramatically better

00:34:18 ◼   ► than what it replaces that maybe it's best

00:34:21 ◼   ► to just cut any negativity away and start over?

00:34:25 ◼   ► - I'll just say no.

00:34:26 ◼   ► I don't think so.

00:34:27 ◼   ► I think you're better off saying it's the all new Siri.

00:34:31 ◼   ► And it's so awesome.

00:34:33 ◼   ► And we revolutionized voice assistants 10 years ago

00:34:36 ◼   ► when we introduced Siri,

00:34:38 ◼   ► and now we're revolutionizing it again.

00:34:39 ◼   ► And I know everybody else will be like, blah, blah, blah.

00:34:41 ◼   ► It's like, okay, but it's Apple marketing.

00:34:42 ◼   ► They say stuff like that.

00:34:43 ◼   ► But that idea of, well, this is the new Siri

00:34:47 ◼   ► and it's awesome.

00:34:47 ◼   ► And then, so who are your competitors at that point?

00:34:50 ◼   ► Gemini, which nobody's heard of.

00:34:52 ◼   ► ChatGPT people have heard of.

00:34:53 ◼   ► Bard is gone.

00:34:55 ◼   ► Co-pilot is a good name, but again,

00:34:57 ◼   ► it's kind of a new concept.

00:34:59 ◼   ► If Apple is integrating with their operating systems

00:35:02 ◼   ► on their phones, especially like Siri, it's already there.

00:35:05 ◼   ► Like the new Siri with AI, Siri AI,

00:35:08 ◼   ► you could even call it if you wanted to.

00:35:10 ◼   ► But like, I think you keep the name

00:35:11 ◼   ► because even if there's some negative connotations with it,

00:35:14 ◼   ► and I think there are some,

00:35:15 ◼   ► but I don't think they've destroyed the brand or anything.

00:35:19 ◼   ► I think it's ready to be revived by new features.

00:35:21 ◼   ► And people get what it means, right?

00:35:23 ◼   ► Which is an assistant who helped me do things

00:35:25 ◼   ► when I talked to it.

00:35:26 ◼   ► - I do agree with you, by the way.

00:35:28 ◼   ► I was just, it was in reading the thing about Spotlight.

00:35:31 ◼   ► - Oh, I know.

00:35:32 ◼   ► - It was just like, it was like,

00:35:33 ◼   ► oh, they do actually continue to have both of these names

00:35:36 ◼   ► and maybe it doesn't make sense to.

00:35:39 ◼   ► - I think my argumentative response,

00:35:41 ◼   ► I was really arguing with some of our listeners, I think.

00:35:45 ◼   ► So it's the straw man kind of thing,

00:35:46 ◼   ► but just bear with me here.

00:35:48 ◼   ► I think those of us who are so focused on Apple stuff,

00:35:50 ◼   ► know how bad Siri has been

00:35:52 ◼   ► and know how bad it's been for so long.

00:35:54 ◼   ► And it's a constant irritation to us.

00:35:56 ◼   ► Whereas I think the general public uses it.

00:36:00 ◼   ► And if they give a bad result, maybe they stop using it.

00:36:04 ◼   ► But that's about it, right?

00:36:05 ◼   ► Like, I don't think that there was that same like,

00:36:07 ◼   ► I hate it so much, for years I've hated Siri.

00:36:10 ◼   ► Like, I don't think that is a thing.

00:36:12 ◼   ► I think it's, and in marketing,

00:36:14 ◼   ► the most important thing is explaining what you are.

00:36:16 ◼   ► To be known.

00:36:17 ◼   ► It's that lesson that I was taught many years ago

00:36:20 ◼   ► by one of my old bosses, who was a sales guy.

00:36:22 ◼   ► But he was like, the first thing is to be known.

00:36:25 ◼   ► You must be known

00:36:26 ◼   ► before anybody will consider buying your thing.

00:36:28 ◼   ► Well, Siri is known, it's a huge asset.

00:36:31 ◼   ► You don't get rid of it just because,

00:36:34 ◼   ► it hasn't been so great.

00:36:36 ◼   ► Because in general, the most important thing is that,

00:36:38 ◼   ► when you say Siri,

00:36:39 ◼   ► people know what that feature is supposed to do.

00:36:42 ◼   ► And you say Siri AI, and they're like,

00:36:43 ◼   ► oh, they made Siri better with AI, great.

00:36:45 ◼   ► And then you're done, right?

00:36:46 ◼   ► Like, all the nerds will be like,

00:36:47 ◼   ► but Siri has been so bad for,

00:36:49 ◼   ► it's like, it doesn't matter anymore.

00:36:50 ◼   ► It's over, right?

00:36:51 ◼   ► I think that's it. - And maybe at this point,

00:36:52 ◼   ► the public perception of AI is so much

00:36:56 ◼   ► that if you know that Siri was made better with AI,

00:36:59 ◼   ► you might be more willing to trust it

00:37:00 ◼   ► or give it another go.

00:37:02 ◼   ► - Right?

00:37:03 ◼   ► - Yeah. - Right?

00:37:04 ◼   ► - So what do you think about Apple's prospects

00:37:06 ◼   ► of AI in iOS 18 and this idea that,

00:37:10 ◼   ► it is being referred to internally

00:37:13 ◼   ► as maybe their biggest update ever?

00:37:15 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:37:15 ◼   ► Well, I mean, I love, here's what I love about it.

00:37:19 ◼   ► I love that it's, Apple has been riding so high for so long.

00:37:24 ◼   ► And even in the early days where they were,

00:37:28 ◼   ► in the early days of the iPhone,

00:37:29 ◼   ► they were being pressed by Android, right?

00:37:31 ◼   ► Android was pushing a lot of buttons in terms of,

00:37:34 ◼   ► oh, but we do this thing.

00:37:36 ◼   ► They were intentionally implementing things

00:37:38 ◼   ► Apple didn't implement in order to give Android a leg up

00:37:42 ◼   ► in certain areas that Apple wouldn't

00:37:44 ◼   ► or couldn't implement or just hadn't.

00:37:47 ◼   ► Boy, it's been a long time, right?

00:37:49 ◼   ► It's been a long time since that was the case.

00:37:50 ◼   ► So now, Apple is riding high.

00:37:53 ◼   ► They make a lot of money.

00:37:54 ◼   ► The iPhone's doing great.

00:37:56 ◼   ► And you know, the smartphone velocity has slowed down.

00:38:00 ◼   ► And this chatbot AI thing has really,

00:38:03 ◼   ► I think, kicked Apple in its complacency.

00:38:07 ◼   ► And so I'm excited to see what they do

00:38:10 ◼   ► because it does feel like they are like, oh crap,

00:38:14 ◼   ► let's get this in more places.

00:38:16 ◼   ► And that they made a concerted effort.

00:38:17 ◼   ► Now, do I think that will work out?

00:38:19 ◼   ► I think the answer is some of it will work great.

00:38:22 ◼   ► And it will be things like,

00:38:23 ◼   ► things we've been saying all along,

00:38:25 ◼   ► like why can't the iPhone do this?

00:38:28 ◼   ► And the answer has really been like,

00:38:30 ◼   ► Apple has chosen not to do that.

00:38:32 ◼   ► And now some of that stuff is gonna get eroded.

00:38:34 ◼   ► It's gonna be like, ah, but Tim Cook says AI.

00:38:37 ◼   ► So the people who are against it are now outvoted.

00:38:40 ◼   ► And they're gonna insert stuff in.

00:38:41 ◼   ► And that's why I think Siri will be better

00:38:44 ◼   ► because Siri has been so bad for so long,

00:38:46 ◼   ► as we just discussed.

00:38:47 ◼   ► I think in part because people involved with Siri are like,

00:38:50 ◼   ► no, no, no, we've just got, it's complicated.

00:38:52 ◼   ► It's that story about it takes months

00:38:53 ◼   ► to update like little decision chains and the Siri thing.

00:38:57 ◼   ► And it's like, then Tim Cook says AI and they're like,

00:38:59 ◼   ► all right, I guess we're throwing this away

00:39:01 ◼   ► and we're doing something with AI.

00:39:02 ◼   ► I assume that that will happen.

00:39:03 ◼   ► And similarly, other OS features that could be simplified

00:39:09 ◼   ► by using AI systems that again, might've been like,

00:39:12 ◼   ► well, deprioritize or we're waiting for it to be better.

00:39:15 ◼   ► And then all of a sudden Tim Cook says, no, now do this.

00:39:19 ◼   ► And they're like, okay, I guess we'll do this now.

00:39:21 ◼   ► Do I think some of them are gonna ship

00:39:23 ◼   ► and we're gonna be like, what?

00:39:25 ◼   ► This doesn't make any sense?

00:39:26 ◼   ► Yes, I do.

00:39:28 ◼   ► And that'll be fun to notice when those things happen.

00:39:30 ◼   ► But I'm excited by the possibility

00:39:32 ◼   ► because this is one of those areas Apple has been very,

00:39:35 ◼   ► if I had to sum it up,

00:39:36 ◼   ► I would say Apple has been very conservative

00:39:37 ◼   ► with their implementation of machine learning stuff.

00:39:39 ◼   ► They use it, but they're really conservative about it.

00:39:42 ◼   ► And I think what we're gonna see,

00:39:45 ◼   ► this is a little bit like that column

00:39:46 ◼   ► I wrote about Apple getting weird.

00:39:48 ◼   ► I think Apple has been caught so off guard

00:39:51 ◼   ► by the advances in AI,

00:39:53 ◼   ► that it has been this kick to their complacency

00:39:56 ◼   ► and that they are going to do some stuff

00:39:58 ◼   ► that is a little outside their comfort zone with iOS.

00:40:01 ◼   ► And I think it's been a long time

00:40:03 ◼   ► since Apple has done something outside its comfort zone

00:40:06 ◼   ► because they have felt so comfortable with their position.

00:40:10 ◼   ► And they're like, no, no, no.

00:40:11 ◼   ► And their conservatism about releasing new features

00:40:15 ◼   ► tends to override those like,

00:40:18 ◼   ► let's take a chance on this wild idea.

00:40:19 ◼   ► Sometimes there are weird ideas,

00:40:21 ◼   ► but a lot of it is like really basic

00:40:25 ◼   ► because they don't wanna go overboard.

00:40:27 ◼   ► You see it with their camera stuff where they're like,

00:40:30 ◼   ► like the magic eraser thing that Google does.

00:40:32 ◼   ► What bugs me about the magic eraser ads for Google

00:40:34 ◼   ► is that I've been able to do magic eraser on my iPad

00:40:39 ◼   ► for ages now using photo mater

00:40:43 ◼   ► is what it's called now, right?

00:40:44 ◼   ► It's pixel mater photo, now it's just photo mater.

00:40:46 ◼   ► Where you literally color in the thing you wanna remove

00:40:49 ◼   ► and it uses machine learning and it erases the thing

00:40:51 ◼   ► and replaces it with something that should fit there.

00:40:53 ◼   ► Like I've used that for years now,

00:40:56 ◼   ► but Apple has refused to put something like that in photos.

00:41:00 ◼   ► They just won't do it.

00:41:02 ◼   ► They just won't do it.

00:41:03 ◼   ► And this is the kind of thing where there's a kick of like,

00:41:06 ◼   ► no, you need to do this.

00:41:09 ◼   ► And I can't wait to see it.

00:41:11 ◼   ► Some of it's gonna be bad.

00:41:13 ◼   ► Some of it's gonna be great.

00:41:14 ◼   ► That's the thing when you are caught off guard

00:41:18 ◼   ► and have to rush to catch up.

00:41:20 ◼   ► So I'm really looking forward to it.

00:41:23 ◼   ► I think it's gonna be a bizarre release potentially.

00:41:27 ◼   ► And I'm here for it, right?

00:41:30 ◼   ► I'm here for Apple trying all sorts of weird stuff,

00:41:33 ◼   ► especially I'm here for people in different areas

00:41:36 ◼   ► within Apple's OS group and apps groups,

00:41:39 ◼   ► looking at the AI mandate and coming up with,

00:41:43 ◼   ► and they know their software really well

00:41:45 ◼   ► and coming up with unexpectedly weird but good things

00:41:49 ◼   ► and bad things, sure, bad things,

00:41:50 ◼   ► but like also weird but good things.

00:41:52 ◼   ► I think that could be great.

00:41:53 ◼   ► And just, I like Apple trying weird stuff and being hungry

00:41:57 ◼   ► and like, 'cause the Vision Pro is super weird, right?

00:42:00 ◼   ► And it's got issues, but like, there's also stuff in it

00:42:02 ◼   ► where you're like, wow, that is really smart.

00:42:04 ◼   ► That is really clever.

00:42:05 ◼   ► And it's been a little while since I've felt that way

00:42:08 ◼   ► about like an iOS feature.

00:42:10 ◼   ► It's like, oh, that's good, that's nice.

00:42:11 ◼   ► They added this thing that we've been clamoring for

00:42:13 ◼   ► for five years and they finally added it.

00:42:17 ◼   ► But this is gonna be, I think more of an OS release

00:42:20 ◼   ► where we look at it and we're like, what?

00:42:23 ◼   ► And that's exciting, right?

00:42:24 ◼   ► Like, what did they do?

00:42:25 ◼   ► What did they did, it's gonna do what now?

00:42:28 ◼   ► That's, for me, that's really great.

00:42:30 ◼   ► I assume that you feel similarly about it.

00:42:32 ◼   ► - I have so many questions about it.

00:42:35 ◼   ► Like, and I just don't, I have,

00:42:38 ◼   ► I'm not sure how they're gonna do it, right?

00:42:40 ◼   ► Like, how much is this stuff gonna be on device?

00:42:44 ◼   ► How much is gonna be in the cloud?

00:42:45 ◼   ► Like, what ramifications are there from that?

00:42:47 ◼   ► Like, I'm intrigued about these things,

00:42:49 ◼   ► but I'm intrigued about exactly what features

00:42:52 ◼   ► they're going to have, what they're going to enable,

00:42:55 ◼   ► like, will Siri have a personality now?

00:42:58 ◼   ► Like, will it be one person?

00:42:59 ◼   ► Like, all of these little things,

00:43:01 ◼   ► like, how far are they gonna go?

00:43:03 ◼   ► Like, what are they willing to do?

00:43:04 ◼   ► And then all of the drama that will naturally,

00:43:08 ◼   ► like, ensue from it.

00:43:10 ◼   ► I'm really intrigued and excited about it.

00:43:11 ◼   ► - Well, we did the draft of the Aegis, right?

00:43:13 ◼   ► Where I predicted that there'll be a scandal

00:43:15 ◼   ► about some terrible thing that one of their AI things does

00:43:18 ◼   ► that they have to apologize for.

00:43:19 ◼   ► - I mean, like, Google's going through it

00:43:20 ◼   ► all right now, right?

00:43:21 ◼   ► Like, it's going to be really intriguing

00:43:25 ◼   ► to see how Apple and its corporate culture battle AI.

00:43:30 ◼   ► Like, I'm really intrigued by it.

00:43:35 ◼   ► - The on-device, off-device thing,

00:43:36 ◼   ► I think, is really interesting,

00:43:37 ◼   ► because what I think it means

00:43:42 ◼   ► is that they're gonna try to do things on device,

00:43:47 ◼   ► but they're gonna have some things

00:43:48 ◼   ► that have to be in the cloud.

00:43:49 ◼   ► They're gonna make statements about how the cloud stuff

00:43:51 ◼   ► is all anonymized and not logged and is personal to you,

00:43:54 ◼   ► which I think is good, right?

00:43:56 ◼   ► Like, that they're gonna want to say,

00:43:58 ◼   ► we're not, you know, it's our model and our data,

00:44:01 ◼   ► and we're not gonna do anything with your queries.

00:44:06 ◼   ► I do wonder, like, how those,

00:44:07 ◼   ► there might be some hybrid models

00:44:09 ◼   ► where it's like there's an LLM that runs on the iPhone

00:44:11 ◼   ► that then does web queries.

00:44:13 ◼   ► It knows to do the queries,

00:44:14 ◼   ► but then the queries happen remotely,

00:44:16 ◼   ► and then information gets filtered back.

00:44:19 ◼   ► I don't know, you're right.

00:44:20 ◼   ► How do they have to change either their philosophy

00:44:23 ◼   ► or how they describe their philosophy in order to use this?

00:44:26 ◼   ► And then, yeah, what are the pitfalls?

00:44:27 ◼   ► Because again, I think that one of the reasons

00:44:29 ◼   ► they've been so conservative with this stuff

00:44:31 ◼   ► is that they want a level of control

00:44:33 ◼   ► that is not necessarily possible with this stuff right now.

00:44:36 ◼   ► And so there are two choices there,

00:44:38 ◼   ► which is one, you make something

00:44:39 ◼   ► that's actually not as good as the competitors,

00:44:42 ◼   ► because you've been so conservative

00:44:43 ◼   ► with your decision-making, or you let it rip,

00:44:47 ◼   ► and maybe some bad things happen,

00:44:50 ◼   ► and how do you label it a beta?

00:44:53 ◼   ► Do you have a footnote that says, you know,

00:44:55 ◼   ► it's experimental and it might give you bad results?

00:44:58 ◼   ► I don't know what those things look.

00:45:01 ◼   ► I'm very interested in the Xcode part of it too.

00:45:04 ◼   ► Like, how do you train, if you're Apple,

00:45:06 ◼   ► what is your code base of Swift and Swift UI especially

00:45:10 ◼   ► that you've trained on?

00:45:12 ◼   ► Is it just like stuff on GitHub?

00:45:14 ◼   ► Is there a lot of, basically what I'm thinking is there,

00:45:16 ◼   ► is there a lot of Swift code out there

00:45:18 ◼   ► that you can train this on

00:45:20 ◼   ► if you're not gonna train it using Apple's internal code?

00:45:24 ◼   ► And a lot of apps that use Swift are not open source

00:45:28 ◼   ► and the source isn't available.

00:45:29 ◼   ► Like, can they train that to be a good co-pilot feature

00:45:34 ◼   ► inside Xcode?

00:45:35 ◼   ► I don't know, it's interesting question.

00:45:37 ◼   ► - As well as AI features,

00:45:40 ◼   ► Mark Gurman is reporting that iOS 18

00:45:42 ◼   ► will feature some design refresh.

00:45:44 ◼   ► Gurman says the company is working to update

00:45:47 ◼   ► the design of iOS,

00:45:48 ◼   ► but I don't believe it will be a total overhaul

00:45:51 ◼   ► that mirrors Vision OS.

00:45:53 ◼   ► Makes sense.

00:45:54 ◼   ► I feel like there's always room for refreshing,

00:45:57 ◼   ► but I think history has shown

00:46:00 ◼   ► don't do the whole thing at once.

00:46:01 ◼   ► It can tend to be a problem.

00:46:03 ◼   ► - It feels like there's some design language changes

00:46:05 ◼   ► that they're gonna make.

00:46:06 ◼   ► And we will talk about this in our next segment, I believe,

00:46:10 ◼   ► because I think that we've gotten some clues

00:46:12 ◼   ► about the direction they're going, but not an overhaul.

00:46:17 ◼   ► They're not trying to build.

00:46:19 ◼   ► It would be, I would think it would be foolish

00:46:21 ◼   ► to launch a brand new 1.0 product

00:46:24 ◼   ► and then try to overhaul the lineup to be like it.

00:46:27 ◼   ► Like, I don't think that that's the plan here.

00:46:29 ◼   ► I do think Vision OS things will seep in.

00:46:31 ◼   ► The ones that work will seep into the other products

00:46:33 ◼   ► 'cause that's how it works at Apple.

00:46:35 ◼   ► But that seems premature right now.

00:46:37 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean like there could have been things

00:46:40 ◼   ► that were designed visually for Vision OS

00:46:43 ◼   ► because they were gonna be everywhere, right?

00:46:45 ◼   ► Like rather than it being,

00:46:46 ◼   ► oh, we made it for Vision OS and it looks real good.

00:46:49 ◼   ► So now like it's what we do, you know what I mean?

00:46:53 ◼   ► But as you say, it would be strange

00:46:57 ◼   ► if that was just the way that they went immediately.

00:46:59 ◼   ► It was like, oh yeah, this is what we're gonna do

00:47:01 ◼   ► with our stuff.

00:47:02 ◼   ► It's all gonna look like this.

00:47:03 ◼   ► - I could see stage manager, especially on the iPad,

00:47:06 ◼   ► looking more like Vision OS.

00:47:07 ◼   ► That's an area where I feel like I could just sort of like

00:47:09 ◼   ► push those things closer together.

00:47:11 ◼   ► - That'd be nice.

00:47:12 ◼   ► So moving on from iOS 18,

00:47:16 ◼   ► Digitimes is reporting that the upcoming OLED iPad Pros

00:47:20 ◼   ► may not see the huge price jumps

00:47:22 ◼   ► that were rumored after all.

00:47:24 ◼   ► So last year, there were a lot of headlines generated

00:47:27 ◼   ► when the ELAC had reported

00:47:29 ◼   ► that pricing for the OLED iPad Pro models

00:47:31 ◼   ► could start at $1,500 for the 11 inch

00:47:35 ◼   ► and $1,800 for the 12.9 inch

00:47:38 ◼   ► due to these new OLED panels.

00:47:39 ◼   ► And I remember we were talking about the time

00:47:41 ◼   ► like that seemed too much, but if it is gonna be that,

00:47:45 ◼   ► well, what are you giving me for it, right?

00:47:47 ◼   ► However, Digitimes is now saying that they predict

00:47:51 ◼   ► an increase of $160 as a maximum on each current model.

00:47:57 ◼   ► This would see starting prices of $950

00:48:01 ◼   ► and $1,200 respectively.

00:48:03 ◼   ► - I mean, it's still a lot of money for an iPad,

00:48:05 ◼   ► but it's not as much money as we feared.

00:48:07 ◼   ► - Nope.

00:48:08 ◼   ► - Right, because our statement about it was very much like,

00:48:13 ◼   ► how do you convince people that $1,500

00:48:16 ◼   ► for an 11 inch iPad makes sense, right?

00:48:18 ◼   ► And if it's 950 to start, again, it's not cheap, right?

00:48:23 ◼   ► You're in MacBook Air territory there,

00:48:27 ◼   ► but it's an OLED screen, yeah, interesting, interesting here.

00:48:32 ◼   ► Keep in mind also there's probably gonna be

00:48:34 ◼   ► a new Magic Keyboard and that's probably gonna cost

00:48:37 ◼   ► you know, $350, something like that.

00:48:38 ◼   ► - Yeah, you could get to $1,500 and $1,800.

00:48:41 ◼   ► - Easily, easily.

00:48:42 ◼   ► - But it's not what the iPad's gonna start at itself.

00:48:45 ◼   ► These iPad Pros are also, so 9to5Mac reported this,

00:48:50 ◼   ► they are set to get a little bit larger, but also thinner

00:48:53 ◼   ► because of the OLED panels inside,

00:48:55 ◼   ► with the key part being, I think, that the new iPad Pros

00:48:58 ◼   ► are expected to be just five millimeters thick,

00:49:01 ◼   ► which is wild and it's still expected

00:49:04 ◼   ► that we will see them released by the end of March.

00:49:07 ◼   ► - They're currently six and six and a half, essentially.

00:49:11 ◼   ► And they're gonna go down to five, which is pretty wild.

00:49:16 ◼   ► Whereas the Air will be six, so Air doesn't mean

00:49:22 ◼   ► what you think it means, but it is, yeah.

00:49:24 ◼   ► I mean, I love my iPad.

00:49:26 ◼   ► I have to admit that I've been thinking like,

00:49:29 ◼   ► am I overly committed to the large iPad lifestyle?

00:49:33 ◼   ► And I do love that big screen, but it is bigger.

00:49:37 ◼   ► But then I see a story like this

00:49:38 ◼   ► and I think, hmm, maybe it's okay, right?

00:49:43 ◼   ► - 'Cause maybe, I don't know,

00:49:44 ◼   ► I wonder what the weight change will be, if at all.

00:49:46 ◼   ► - I wonder.

00:49:48 ◼   ► - But that thinness is pretty, pretty awesome.

00:49:51 ◼   ► Going back to Mark Gurman reporting now

00:49:54 ◼   ► and his power on newsletter, Mark has said

00:49:56 ◼   ► that Apple started work, early work,

00:49:59 ◼   ► on a home part of a screen.

00:50:01 ◼   ► - Yeah, this is almost like a wet blanket kind of thing.

00:50:03 ◼   ► 'Cause we've talked about this before

00:50:05 ◼   ► and he said that they were working on it.

00:50:07 ◼   ► And this report seems to be very much like,

00:50:09 ◼   ► nobody get their hopes up.

00:50:10 ◼   ► This is not a 2024 thing, right?

00:50:13 ◼   ► This is like, it's out there.

00:50:15 ◼   ► This is a thing that they're trying out,

00:50:19 ◼   ► but it's not something that's shipping imminently.

00:50:21 ◼   ► 'Cause I think that maybe some reports

00:50:22 ◼   ► made people too excited.

00:50:24 ◼   ► Like they were, oh, they're testing it

00:50:26 ◼   ► and they're getting ready to ship it.

00:50:27 ◼   ► And he's like, no, no, no, no, no.

00:50:28 ◼   ► That is not what's happening.

00:50:30 ◼   ► It's gonna be a lot further out.

00:50:32 ◼   ► So don't get your hopes up.

00:50:33 ◼   ► - Yeah, part of this reporting

00:50:34 ◼   ► was that 9to5Mac found references

00:50:37 ◼   ► to such a device existing in a tvOS 17.4 beta.

00:50:42 ◼   ► It was referencing like a screen and a home pod in tvOS,

00:50:47 ◼   ► which doesn't make any sense

00:50:49 ◼   ► unless they're testing something like this

00:50:51 ◼   ► 'cause no such product exists.

00:50:53 ◼   ► And it is still expected that this device

00:50:55 ◼   ► would be some combination of an Apple TV,

00:50:58 ◼   ► a home pod and an iPad of a FaceTime camera.

00:51:02 ◼   ► - Oh, sounds good.

00:51:03 ◼   ► - I think really the key is like good audio, right?

00:51:05 ◼   ► So home pod, FaceTime camera so you can call people.

00:51:09 ◼   ► The iPad part is just, it has a touch screen,

00:51:12 ◼   ► but the operating system looking and feeling like tvOS,

00:51:15 ◼   ► like that makes a lot of sense,

00:51:17 ◼   ► that whole kind of stack of things to do.

00:51:19 ◼   ► - Simplified operating system, there are apps for it.

00:51:22 ◼   ► You could do FaceTime and Zoom on it, right?

00:51:24 ◼   ► Like they've got all that stuff in there

00:51:25 ◼   ► 'cause the tvOS stuff with continuity camera,

00:51:27 ◼   ► it's like, well, that's interesting,

00:51:28 ◼   ► but you gotta have continuity camera.

00:51:30 ◼   ► But if there is a product behind it

00:51:32 ◼   ► that has an integrated camera and runs tvOS,

00:51:35 ◼   ► it makes a lot more sense.

00:51:36 ◼   ► And the software is already there for it at that point.

00:51:39 ◼   ► So there's a lot to be said for this.

00:51:41 ◼   ► - Let me tell you what I want this device to do,

00:51:43 ◼   ► but we're very, very far away from that

00:51:45 ◼   ► if it ever happening.

00:51:46 ◼   ► I want this to be an eye tracking focused device.

00:51:49 ◼   ► - Oh, interesting.

00:51:51 ◼   ► - If I'm in the kitchen, I'm usually busy.

00:51:55 ◼   ► My hands are dirty, I'm cooking, whatever.

00:51:58 ◼   ► To use a device like this, yes, I could use my voice,

00:52:01 ◼   ► but I would also like to be able to look at it

00:52:02 ◼   ► and tap with my fingers.

00:52:04 ◼   ► I also felt like I wanna do this with my watch too, right?

00:52:09 ◼   ► 'Cause the Apple Watch,

00:52:12 ◼   ► we always wanted to be a one-handed device.

00:52:15 ◼   ► It's how we thought about it before.

00:52:16 ◼   ► Oh, it's a one-handed device, right?

00:52:18 ◼   ► It's simple, but it's not, it's two hands.

00:52:21 ◼   ► It is more two-handed than anything else that you use.

00:52:25 ◼   ► But wouldn't it be nice if you could look at your watch

00:52:29 ◼   ► and just use the single tap motion

00:52:32 ◼   ► that it should potentially be able to detect

00:52:34 ◼   ► to do things in the watch?

00:52:36 ◼   ► We're far away from technology like that,

00:52:39 ◼   ► but I also, I mean, a few years ago,

00:52:42 ◼   ► wouldn't have imagined that they could have eye tracking

00:52:45 ◼   ► so good on the vision.

00:52:47 ◼   ► - Now keep in mind that the eye tracking is right by your eye

00:52:50 ◼   ► and this thing is across the kitchen from you,

00:52:52 ◼   ► but I think that there are things that they could learn.

00:52:54 ◼   ► So my Google Nest Home, whatever it is,

00:52:58 ◼   ► has very limited gestural support.

00:53:01 ◼   ► It basically means that I don't have to tell it

00:53:03 ◼   ► to stop the alarm or tap on the screen.

00:53:05 ◼   ► I can actually wave my hand at it

00:53:07 ◼   ► and it turns the alarm off.

00:53:08 ◼   ► And I think maybe there's something like

00:53:13 ◼   ► a combination of hand gestures

00:53:15 ◼   ► and maybe even like attention sense.

00:53:21 ◼   ► So if you think about the idea that if you're looking at it,

00:53:25 ◼   ► can it determine, does it have an ML model of like,

00:53:28 ◼   ► oh, now it's looking at me.

00:53:30 ◼   ► And then you do a command with a gesture and it does it.

00:53:34 ◼   ► That's not eye tracking per se.

00:53:36 ◼   ► - What if like you could, I don't know,

00:53:39 ◼   ► tvOS is very big, like the point.

00:53:42 ◼   ► What if it had some kind of thing,

00:53:45 ◼   ► like some kind of radar thing in it, like that Pixel had,

00:53:49 ◼   ► where you could just move your hand, right?

00:53:50 ◼   ► And it's just selecting what you're looking at.

00:53:54 ◼   ► There are things to do.

00:53:55 ◼   ► - Yeah, maybe, or maybe it's the motion, right?

00:53:58 ◼   ► 'Cause tvOS is very much like a left, right, up, down,

00:54:01 ◼   ► select for most stuff.

00:54:02 ◼   ► So if you can imagine that maybe it only triggers

00:54:05 ◼   ► when you're looking at it,

00:54:07 ◼   ► and then you've got hand gestures for,

00:54:09 ◼   ► which would be very easy, I would think,

00:54:11 ◼   ► for left, right, up, down, and enter.

00:54:13 ◼   ► So you could basically go like right, right,

00:54:16 ◼   ► move your finger, right, right,

00:54:18 ◼   ► and then go with your palm of your hand or something,

00:54:20 ◼   ► go boop, and it selects a thing.

00:54:24 ◼   ► There might be a simple set of those kind of gestures

00:54:26 ◼   ► for when you wanna be hands-free

00:54:28 ◼   ► and not putting your oily, chickeny,

00:54:31 ◼   ► whatever they are, hands on the screen,

00:54:33 ◼   ► which is super gross in the kitchen.

00:54:35 ◼   ► So I think there's potential there.

00:54:36 ◼   ► And they have this tech.

00:54:37 ◼   ► - Keep salmonella out of the kitchen, you know?

00:54:40 ◼   ► Let's just keep that out of the kitchen.

00:54:41 ◼   ► No raw chicken hands.

00:54:43 ◼   ► - Well, I mean, salmonella might be in the kitchen,

00:54:45 ◼   ► keep it off your screen for sure.

00:54:47 ◼   ► - Yeah, but I mean, you're more likely to get it

00:54:49 ◼   ► if you're just putting your like gross chicken hands

00:54:51 ◼   ► on the screen. - Exactly.

00:54:52 ◼   ► You should keep it contained.

00:54:53 ◼   ► Keep your contaminants contained.

00:54:56 ◼   ► You don't want them on the screen of your device.

00:54:57 ◼   ► - It's right there, you know, contaminant, contain, right?

00:55:00 ◼   ► It's the clue's in the name.

00:55:02 ◼   ► Finally, iPhone schematics and leaked production molds

00:55:07 ◼   ► suggesting that the iPhone 16

00:55:09 ◼   ► will feature a vertical arrangement

00:55:11 ◼   ► of the two camera lenses.

00:55:12 ◼   ► Clearly this is for spatial video.

00:55:15 ◼   ► - Clearly, very clearly. - Right, because they have been

00:55:17 ◼   ► horizontally aligned from each other for years now.

00:55:21 ◼   ► And now they would be vertically aligned.

00:55:25 ◼   ► Diagonally, sorry, not horizontally,

00:55:26 ◼   ► diagonally aligned from each other, right?

00:55:28 ◼   ► And in the little square on the iPhone 16 for a long time.

00:55:31 ◼   ► - But if you have one right on top of the other,

00:55:33 ◼   ► then you have the ability to flip the phone on its side

00:55:36 ◼   ► and capture spatial video.

00:55:38 ◼   ► - There are also rumors that suggest the iPhone 16

00:55:42 ◼   ► will gain both an action button

00:55:44 ◼   ► and the rumored capacitive capture button,

00:55:46 ◼   ► which is interesting to me,

00:55:48 ◼   ► that they would put the action button straight on that phone

00:55:51 ◼   ► and then immediately as well,

00:55:52 ◼   ► if they're gonna add this capture button this year,

00:55:54 ◼   ► that there's a possibility of it coming to both phones

00:55:56 ◼   ► at the same time.

00:55:57 ◼   ► - I think Apple is much more aggressive

00:56:00 ◼   ► taking things off the pro

00:56:01 ◼   ► and putting them on the main models

00:56:02 ◼   ► than we give them credit for.

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00:57:16 ◼   ► And now, Uni's electric Vault 12 pizza oven

00:57:19 ◼   ► means that you can make pizza both indoors and outdoors.

00:57:23 ◼   ► Uni ovens are for more than just pizza though.

00:57:25 ◼   ► You can cook juicy burgers, sizzling fajitas,

00:57:27 ◼   ► buffalo wings, and so much more.

00:57:29 ◼   ► They are ovens.

00:57:31 ◼   ► That's what they are,

00:57:32 ◼   ► but they're perfect for pizza and everything else.

00:57:34 ◼   ► Uni pizza ovens start from just $299

00:57:37 ◼   ► for free shipping to the US, the UK, and the EU.

00:57:39 ◼   ► They also make cast iron cookware, pizza peels,

00:57:42 ◼   ► thermometers, and loads of other accessories

00:57:44 ◼   ► to help you level up your cooking.

00:57:47 ◼   ► Jason, can you tell us a little bit about the convenience

00:57:51 ◼   ► when you come to using your Uni pizza oven?

00:57:53 ◼   ► - Oh, convenience, interesting.

00:57:55 ◼   ► It is, well, I mean, the idea here

00:57:57 ◼   ► is that you can set it up outside.

00:57:59 ◼   ► I have the gas-powered one,

00:58:01 ◼   ► and it uses the same gas cylinder as my gas grill.

00:58:06 ◼   ► So I don't have to have, like, I've got two of those,

00:58:09 ◼   ► one attached to each, but if one runs out,

00:58:10 ◼   ► I can just flip over to the other one, super easy.

00:58:13 ◼   ► Actually, the same as also our outdoor heater thing.

00:58:15 ◼   ► So it's like, it's all kind of the same containers,

00:58:18 ◼   ► which is really nice, the propane.

00:58:20 ◼   ► And then it doesn't, in the summertime,

00:58:23 ◼   ► it doesn't heat up the house because it's outside,

00:58:25 ◼   ► so I don't make as much pizza.

00:58:27 ◼   ► Like, in the oven, I gotta get it up,

00:58:29 ◼   ► and I can only get it up to 500,

00:58:31 ◼   ► and it just, the whole house is hot.

00:58:32 ◼   ► So the summer, it's just a no-go.

00:58:34 ◼   ► Don't have to worry about that.

00:58:35 ◼   ► I can get the oven much hotter outside,

00:58:37 ◼   ► and it doesn't heat up the house.

00:58:39 ◼   ► And then the speed, as you mentioned, you can cook it.

00:58:42 ◼   ► Once you get it up to temp, really,

00:58:46 ◼   ► not only does that make it easy to cook multiple pizzas,

00:58:48 ◼   ► because they're all done within a very short time

00:58:51 ◼   ► of one another, you just put it in,

00:58:53 ◼   ► and you actually use the peel,

00:58:54 ◼   ► like, to turn it around a little bit,

00:58:56 ◼   ► and it's got this L-shaped burner

00:58:58 ◼   ► that lets it get all crispy and melty and all of that.

00:59:02 ◼   ► It, you know, so it can be done in a minute or two,

00:59:05 ◼   ► and then you put the next one in,

00:59:06 ◼   ► and it's done in a minute or two,

00:59:07 ◼   ► and then you sit down, you've got two different pizzas

00:59:09 ◼   ► with different toppings.

00:59:09 ◼   ► And it's just, it's all very pleasant and convenient.

00:59:13 ◼   ► And then I have a little, I bought the little case for it.

00:59:15 ◼   ► So now when it's very rainy, I just keep it outside,

00:59:19 ◼   ► but I've got it in its little case, yeah.

00:59:22 ◼   ► - I'm very excited, because Ooni has sent me

00:59:24 ◼   ► one of the electric ones.

00:59:26 ◼   ► - Oh, man.

00:59:27 ◼   ► - So that's on its way.

00:59:28 ◼   ► So next time we talk about this, I'll be able to,

00:59:31 ◼   ► I will be able to tell you what it's like

00:59:33 ◼   ► to use the Vault 12. - Unbelievable.

00:59:35 ◼   ► - I liked the idea of cooking inside and outside.

00:59:38 ◼   ► That was, that was very appealing to me.

00:59:41 ◼   ► Listeners of this show can get 10% off their purchase

00:59:44 ◼   ► of an Ooni Pizza Oven.

00:59:45 ◼   ► Just go to Ooni.com and use the code UPGRADE2024 at checkout.

00:59:49 ◼   ► Ooni Pizza Ovens are the best way

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00:59:57 ◼   ► and use the code UPGRADE2024 for 10% off.

01:00:00 ◼   ► Our thanks to Ooni Pizza Ovens

01:00:02 ◼   ► for their support of this show and Relay FM.

01:00:06 ◼   ► - Apple has launched a sports scores app

01:00:10 ◼   ► and Jason had the chance to talk to Eddy Cue about it.

01:00:13 ◼   ► What a great time for everyone.

01:00:15 ◼   ► - I did, I talked to Eddy one-on-one.

01:00:17 ◼   ► I mean, there was other Apple PR people about it.

01:00:19 ◼   ► It was just me and Eddy talking.

01:00:21 ◼   ► Yeah, just hanging out with Eddy Cue.

01:00:22 ◼   ► First time for me I've ever talked to Eddy Cue, honestly.

01:00:25 ◼   ► - Was it a good time?

01:00:26 ◼   ► It seemed like a good time. - Yeah.

01:00:28 ◼   ► I think Eddy Cue is exactly who you expect him to be,

01:00:30 ◼   ► who you see him as.

01:00:31 ◼   ► He seems really smart, but also like a real person.

01:00:36 ◼   ► He cares about sports, obviously.

01:00:38 ◼   ► That was in my story.

01:00:39 ◼   ► I basically said, "Look, you know one thing about Eddy,

01:00:41 ◼   ► he cares about sports.

01:00:42 ◼   ► He's a court side at the Warriors games."

01:00:44 ◼   ► When I talked to him,

01:00:45 ◼   ► he had just come back from the Super Bowl.

01:00:47 ◼   ► Like, literally that morning he had come back

01:00:51 ◼   ► from the Super Bowl was the day after the Super Bowl.

01:00:53 ◼   ► And so to do this app and have like a sports score app,

01:01:00 ◼   ► like clearly it's driven by his personal passion

01:01:05 ◼   ► for this subject and frustration.

01:01:07 ◼   ► One of the things that he and I talked about,

01:01:09 ◼   ► he was like, "Well, where do you get your scores?"

01:01:10 ◼   ► And I said, "Honestly, I've given up on score apps.

01:01:13 ◼   ► I just use Google."

01:01:14 ◼   ► And he says, "Yes."

01:01:17 ◼   ► He basically is like, "Yes, this is the problem,

01:01:20 ◼   ► is that the apps," and I think he's right.

01:01:24 ◼   ► The apps that you make for sports scores

01:01:26 ◼   ► are generally, the focus is on something else.

01:01:30 ◼   ► They're trying to get you to do something else,

01:01:33 ◼   ► subscribe to their thing or use their betting app,

01:01:37 ◼   ► or there's so many other things that they,

01:01:39 ◼   ► or just load you in with ads.

01:01:41 ◼   ► And he was like, "We just wanted to make something

01:01:43 ◼   ► that gets you to the scores fast."

01:01:44 ◼   ► And that was our whole charter for this thing.

01:01:46 ◼   ► It was obviously coming out of his group

01:01:47 ◼   ► and probably a very small group of people.

01:01:49 ◼   ► And they're like, it's a passion project for them.

01:01:52 ◼   ► But I think that there's also behind it,

01:01:54 ◼   ► there's a lot of strategy going on.

01:01:55 ◼   ► So it's really interesting.

01:01:57 ◼   ► Even if you're not interested in sports or sports scores,

01:01:59 ◼   ► I think it's interesting in how it's built

01:02:01 ◼   ► and how it interlinks with other stuff Apple's doing

01:02:04 ◼   ► and how Apple maybe can do something that starts simple,

01:02:08 ◼   ► but also has a lot of potential for interlinking

01:02:10 ◼   ► with other things Apple's doing.

01:02:12 ◼   ► - So as Eddie says, and I quote,

01:02:15 ◼   ► "I just want the damn score of the game."

01:02:18 ◼   ► - Yep, that's what he said to me.

01:02:19 ◼   ► - It's one of the greatest quotes

01:02:21 ◼   ► from Apple executive of all time.

01:02:24 ◼   ► - And they said, when you talk to Eddie,

01:02:26 ◼   ► the top part of it before we get into the demo

01:02:28 ◼   ► is on the record.

01:02:29 ◼   ► And I'm like, when he said that, I was like,

01:02:30 ◼   ► "Well, that's not something they'd put in a press release."

01:02:32 ◼   ► And I love it because that's it, right?

01:02:33 ◼   ► I just want the damn score.

01:02:35 ◼   ► That's what I want.

01:02:36 ◼   ► And I mean, he said,

01:02:38 ◼   ► he said he was literally standing courtside

01:02:39 ◼   ► at the Warriors games where he has tickets

01:02:42 ◼   ► and looking at the scoreboard

01:02:44 ◼   ► and looking at the app when it was in beta

01:02:47 ◼   ► and sending notes back about how long the app was delayed

01:02:51 ◼   ► from what the real time was.

01:02:52 ◼   ► 'Cause part of the goal of this

01:02:54 ◼   ► was not only to get you the scores fast,

01:02:56 ◼   ► but get them to be not super laggy.

01:02:59 ◼   ► He wants the data source to be as current as possible.

01:03:03 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:03:03 ◼   ► What's going on with that data source?

01:03:05 ◼   ► Because that was a thing, right?

01:03:06 ◼   ► That you were mentioning in the article

01:03:08 ◼   ► and I've heard other people mention.

01:03:10 ◼   ► Apple seems to have some kind of very, very fast data source,

01:03:14 ◼   ► like something's going on here.

01:03:15 ◼   ► Do you know what's going on there?

01:03:16 ◼   ► Like, do you know anything about it?

01:03:18 ◼   ► - I don't know what their data sources are.

01:03:20 ◼   ► I think they've got different partners.

01:03:21 ◼   ► I think that one of the reasons why

01:03:23 ◼   ► there are certain sports that are in there

01:03:25 ◼   ► and certain sports that aren't,

01:03:26 ◼   ► some of that has to do with like what's,

01:03:28 ◼   ► like there's everybody's like,

01:03:29 ◼   ► oh, I can't add my favorite NFL team.

01:03:31 ◼   ► It's like, guys, there's no NFL scores until August.

01:03:34 ◼   ► So hold on.

01:03:35 ◼   ► But I get it on one level,

01:03:37 ◼   ► but on another level I get why they're like,

01:03:39 ◼   ► no, we're not gonna do that now.

01:03:41 ◼   ► But I think some of the lower leagues in like,

01:03:45 ◼   ► it released in the US, Canada, and the UK.

01:03:48 ◼   ► And in the UK, one of the things that people pointed out

01:03:50 ◼   ► is it's just the premier league.

01:03:52 ◼   ► And it probably should have

01:03:54 ◼   ► some of the lower leagues in there too.

01:03:56 ◼   ► I think that has to do with the data source.

01:03:57 ◼   ► That's my suspicion is that they're not happy.

01:04:00 ◼   ► And they may even have some standards

01:04:01 ◼   ► for like how quickly the data source updates.

01:04:04 ◼   ► And if the data source isn't very good,

01:04:06 ◼   ► my guess is that they're pushing their data source providers

01:04:08 ◼   ► because they want that data,

01:04:10 ◼   ► but they're launching with the data

01:04:11 ◼   ► that they're comfortable with

01:04:12 ◼   ► because they wanna show off

01:04:14 ◼   ► that they've got a good data source.

01:04:15 ◼   ► The other funny thing about the data sources,

01:04:17 ◼   ► this is not a new data source.

01:04:19 ◼   ► If you have had favorite teams in Apple News or Apple TV

01:04:22 ◼   ► before, you've been getting live activities

01:04:24 ◼   ► and can continue to get them for those teams

01:04:28 ◼   ► on your lock screen of your iPhone.

01:04:30 ◼   ► That's the same data source.

01:04:31 ◼   ► Like I got up a couple of days before I went down

01:04:35 ◼   ► and talked to Eddie and Arsenal was playing.

01:04:37 ◼   ► It was actually the day before, 'cause it was Sunday.

01:04:39 ◼   ► They played the morning of Super Bowl Sunday.

01:04:41 ◼   ► And I'm walking out to get my tea in the morning

01:04:44 ◼   ► and on my iPhone in standby,

01:04:47 ◼   ► instead of it being like the clock and the weather,

01:04:49 ◼   ► it's the Arsenal score and a play-by-play

01:04:52 ◼   ► of the Arsenal game.

01:04:54 ◼   ► And I thought to myself, "Oh yeah, right, live activities."

01:04:57 ◼   ► And in fact, now that spring training has started,

01:05:00 ◼   ► I'm getting those live activities for the Giants as well.

01:05:04 ◼   ► And what's funny is that those scores

01:05:05 ◼   ► aren't in the Scores app.

01:05:06 ◼   ► And I think that, again, this is one of those cases

01:05:08 ◼   ► where their live activities data feed

01:05:12 ◼   ► has some spring training data in it,

01:05:14 ◼   ► but the Sports app isn't yet,

01:05:17 ◼   ► I think that they've got stuff they wanna do

01:05:19 ◼   ► to properly present baseball

01:05:21 ◼   ► and they're waiting for the regular season

01:05:23 ◼   ► to properly present it.

01:05:25 ◼   ► 'Cause they've got a, it's not just the score,

01:05:27 ◼   ► it's also like the pages that have like the box score

01:05:31 ◼   ► and stats and stuff.

01:05:32 ◼   ► And I think that they, I don't think that's ready.

01:05:35 ◼   ► They also have a March Madness thing that they're gonna do

01:05:37 ◼   ► for the NCAA basketball tournaments

01:05:40 ◼   ► that he said that that will be specific to that

01:05:45 ◼   ► and they'll push that out for the tournaments.

01:05:47 ◼   ► So there was clear intent here

01:05:49 ◼   ► that this thing is gonna get updated a lot.

01:05:52 ◼   ► And that is not just presentation,

01:05:54 ◼   ► but it's also the data sources.

01:05:55 ◼   ► So I think that there's more here,

01:05:58 ◼   ► but when I say this, I mean,

01:06:00 ◼   ► it also talks about the fact that this is kind of a,

01:06:04 ◼   ► it's kind of funny, right?

01:06:06 ◼   ► Because the data source is already there,

01:06:08 ◼   ► it's in the TV app.

01:06:09 ◼   ► And then I heard a lot of people say,

01:06:10 ◼   ► well, why aren't they doing things like with the Stocks app

01:06:12 ◼   ► where you're basically like reading news

01:06:14 ◼   ► about your stocks that you're following in the Stocks app.

01:06:17 ◼   ► But like you read news about the teams you're following

01:06:20 ◼   ► in the News app and that all syncs.

01:06:23 ◼   ► And like, so on one level that makes sense.

01:06:26 ◼   ► On another level, I wonder if the long-term play,

01:06:29 ◼   ► like this app is not called Apple Scores, right?

01:06:32 ◼   ► It's called Apple Sports.

01:06:34 ◼   ► So I wonder if the long-term plan is to integrate

01:06:37 ◼   ► more of that stuff into one app.

01:06:39 ◼   ► But right now it's sort of three apps.

01:06:42 ◼   ► - It's a brand.

01:06:43 ◼   ► This is the brand.

01:06:44 ◼   ► It's not, you should say, it's not sports scores.

01:06:46 ◼   ► It's Apple Sport, like Apple TV, like Apple weather,

01:06:49 ◼   ► like all of these things.

01:06:50 ◼   ► - Exactly.

01:06:51 ◼   ► - And we'll talk in a minute about like,

01:06:53 ◼   ► I wanna talk to you in a minute about like

01:06:54 ◼   ► bolder ambitions and stuff.

01:06:56 ◼   ► I mean, this is interesting.

01:06:57 ◼   ► Like, yeah, my main sport is Formula One.

01:06:59 ◼   ► That's not in here.

01:07:00 ◼   ► And I think I feel like I understand why.

01:07:02 ◼   ► I don't even think this is a data thing.

01:07:04 ◼   ► I think that is just a completely different way

01:07:07 ◼   ► of showing scores of something.

01:07:09 ◼   ► 'Cause it isn't really scores, it's not really scoring.

01:07:11 ◼   ► - Yeah, I'm sure they will get there, right?

01:07:14 ◼   ► Because I'm sure they would like to harness F1 fans

01:07:17 ◼   ► and get them in, but it is, yeah.

01:07:19 ◼   ► It's a different paradigm that they have to build

01:07:21 ◼   ► and I can see why they would leave it out

01:07:23 ◼   ► at the first version.

01:07:24 ◼   ► It's a little less, when they have soccer scores in there,

01:07:26 ◼   ► it's a little less to be like,

01:07:27 ◼   ► well, why isn't the championship in there?

01:07:28 ◼   ► And why isn't the Champions League in there?

01:07:31 ◼   ► - And I assume that is a, you know,

01:07:32 ◼   ► you're saying about the data, but I reckon it's like

01:07:34 ◼   ► how much money is in the system, right?

01:07:36 ◼   ► And like Premier League has more money.

01:07:38 ◼   ► They can maybe have better data, better real-time data

01:07:42 ◼   ► because the data exists.

01:07:43 ◼   ► But if Apple's very, like very fixed on this,

01:07:47 ◼   ► like it's got to be immediately fast or whatever,

01:07:52 ◼   ► then that's gonna cause them a problem.

01:07:56 ◼   ► - Doesn't it sound like for them to have a higher standard

01:07:58 ◼   ► and it means that things get omitted from their app

01:08:00 ◼   ► and people complain about it, but they're like, no,

01:08:04 ◼   ► we have a higher standard.

01:08:05 ◼   ► And then there's a question of like,

01:08:06 ◼   ► will they get people to raise the bar for the data sources?

01:08:10 ◼   ► Will they lower their bar a little bit

01:08:11 ◼   ► for some of the other scores?

01:08:13 ◼   ► Who knows?

01:08:14 ◼   ► But they're going out with the data sources

01:08:16 ◼   ► that they think are, first off, are the biggest ones

01:08:19 ◼   ► and that probably the best ones.

01:08:21 ◼   ► So it is the NBA.

01:08:23 ◼   ► And MLS, of course, it launched on MLS opening day.

01:08:26 ◼   ► That's why it launched when it did, clearly was that.

01:08:29 ◼   ► But they've got MLS, NBA, NHL, Premier League,

01:08:33 ◼   ► a bunch of other European soccer,

01:08:35 ◼   ► even though it didn't launch in other European countries.

01:08:38 ◼   ► I think it was strongly implied to me that Luca Maestri,

01:08:42 ◼   ► the CFO at Apple, really wanted Serie A to be in there.

01:08:46 ◼   ► - Fair.

01:08:47 ◼   ► - So, there's a lot of people who follow European leagues

01:08:50 ◼   ► who are not the top level leagues,

01:08:52 ◼   ► but again, the lower level leagues aren't there.

01:08:53 ◼   ► - Come on in, Phil.

01:08:54 ◼   ► I know Phil Schiller is a big Formula One fan, so.

01:08:57 ◼   ► - I know, right?

01:08:58 ◼   ► - Why doesn't Phil get this treatment?

01:09:01 ◼   ► - I think it's harder.

01:09:01 ◼   ► I think that's the answer, right?

01:09:03 ◼   ► It's like, it's a completely different way

01:09:05 ◼   ► to visualize data for races than it is for a soccer match.

01:09:10 ◼   ► - There is an app out there called BoxBox

01:09:12 ◼   ► that Apple should just buy that team

01:09:13 ◼   ► 'cause they've done it, like, they've built a live activity

01:09:17 ◼   ► for Formula One races, which is like, it's so good.

01:09:20 ◼   ► Like, it updates live with times and lap numbers

01:09:23 ◼   ► and stuff like, it's a different way of showing things.

01:09:26 ◼   ► One of the things that I find super interesting

01:09:29 ◼   ► and I find it quite complicated and very strange

01:09:31 ◼   ► at the same time is that it has betting, betting lines,

01:09:35 ◼   ► betting information, right?

01:09:37 ◼   ► The odds on games are in this app.

01:09:41 ◼   ► - In the app.

01:09:42 ◼   ► - I don't know why they've done that.

01:09:43 ◼   ► - Well, I can tell you why, which is in the U.S. right now,

01:09:49 ◼   ► an enormous amount of attention and money

01:09:54 ◼   ► is happening with legal sports gambling.

01:09:56 ◼   ► Legal sports gambling is new in most of the U.S.

01:09:59 ◼   ► And there's a huge amount of money in there.

01:10:02 ◼   ► And I think that what happened is there is a perception

01:10:05 ◼   ► that betting is a part of the sports market

01:10:11 ◼   ► and the sports audience.

01:10:12 ◼   ► And so they didn't want to ignore it.

01:10:14 ◼   ► I think five years ago, this wouldn't have happened.

01:10:16 ◼   ► - You can't bet in the app.

01:10:17 ◼   ► - No, you can't bet in it.

01:10:18 ◼   ► No, it just shows you the odds.

01:10:20 ◼   ► - So why is that useful to you?

01:10:23 ◼   ► - I don't know.

01:10:24 ◼   ► I mean, I'm not a bettor, so I can't tell you.

01:10:26 ◼   ► I think maybe there's like, who's favored.

01:10:28 ◼   ► - Yeah, some people like to know that, right?

01:10:30 ◼   ► But there's, it's weird to me because it's Apple, right?

01:10:35 ◼   ► - Yep.

01:10:36 ◼   ► Then again, I'll just point out again,

01:10:38 ◼   ► when they launched the major league baseball stuff,

01:10:41 ◼   ► their pregame show was sponsored by a betting company.

01:10:46 ◼   ► So like Apple has been involved with sports betting.

01:10:49 ◼   ► And I know people feel differently about it.

01:10:51 ◼   ► There is, as far as I can tell from the reaction

01:10:54 ◼   ► that I saw on Mastodon, I think in mainland Europe,

01:10:58 ◼   ► there is a very strong anti-betting opinion.

01:11:03 ◼   ► But I will just say that in the U.S. and the UK actually,

01:11:07 ◼   ► where these things have launched,

01:11:08 ◼   ► and I don't know about how candid it feels,

01:11:10 ◼   ► there it is a part of the culture

01:11:14 ◼   ► and it's not a part that I am a part of,

01:11:16 ◼   ► but it is very normal.

01:11:18 ◼   ► I'm really just surprised that it either doesn't ask

01:11:20 ◼   ► or that it doesn't put the setting in the app itself.

01:11:22 ◼   ► You have to go to settings and then drill down

01:11:25 ◼   ► all the way into the sports app and then turn it off.

01:11:27 ◼   ► But you can turn it off.

01:11:29 ◼   ► And I didn't even have to ask.

01:11:30 ◼   ► It was on my list of questions to ask about.

01:11:32 ◼   ► And before I could in the demo, they're like,

01:11:34 ◼   ► you can turn it off.

01:11:35 ◼   ► It's there if you want it and you can turn it off.

01:11:37 ◼   ► - It's weird to me that they've done it.

01:11:38 ◼   ► It's weird.

01:11:39 ◼   ► You say they've partnered with DraftKings for this?

01:11:42 ◼   ► - Apparently it is the data source.

01:11:44 ◼   ► It says that it's the data source, yeah.

01:11:46 ◼   ► - But it's also strange to me

01:11:48 ◼   ► that you can't do anything with it.

01:11:50 ◼   ► Yeah, okay, it says it in settings.

01:11:52 ◼   ► Sports settings, betting odds provided by DraftKings.

01:11:55 ◼   ► So it says that in the settings app.

01:11:57 ◼   ► It doesn't say it in the thing.

01:11:58 ◼   ► And it can't do anything with that.

01:12:00 ◼   ► It's just that's where they have the data.

01:12:02 ◼   ► So I guess for DraftKings, this is just a way to make money.

01:12:05 ◼   ► But so let's talk about some of the future of this.

01:12:07 ◼   ► Like, and I will start with that question is,

01:12:09 ◼   ► can you imagine a world where Apple's into sports betting?

01:12:13 ◼   ► - Not really.

01:12:15 ◼   ► But I think that it's possible

01:12:20 ◼   ► that there might be a partnership or links out.

01:12:25 ◼   ► I have a hard time imagining

01:12:27 ◼   ► that they would do it more than that.

01:12:29 ◼   ► I think that they'll keep it at arm's length.

01:12:32 ◼   ► It's possible that they will allow...

01:12:35 ◼   ► 'Cause then they would be linking to third party apps.

01:12:37 ◼   ► I don't think it'll be in the app at all.

01:12:39 ◼   ► So I think this is probably the most it'll be.

01:12:40 ◼   ► In fact, I wouldn't be surprised

01:12:41 ◼   ► if they scale it back a little bit

01:12:43 ◼   ► based on reaction from people.

01:12:45 ◼   ► Like, yeah, I don't know.

01:12:49 ◼   ► We'll see, we'll see.

01:12:50 ◼   ► Like I said, I don't really understand the psychology

01:12:54 ◼   ► of people who are focused on betting for sports.

01:12:57 ◼   ► But I know that it's a huge part of the audience

01:13:00 ◼   ► and they wanna capture that audience.

01:13:02 ◼   ► I'm not sure that audience needs to see the odds in the app.

01:13:05 ◼   ► Because they're probably seeing the odds

01:13:07 ◼   ► in their betting app anyway.

01:13:09 ◼   ► So I don't know if I entirely understand this part of it.

01:13:13 ◼   ► I doubt it will be a direction for them.

01:13:15 ◼   ► - Who knows, maybe like if you're that person,

01:13:18 ◼   ► like if you're using the sports app because you like it

01:13:20 ◼   ► and then you notice the odds change maybe during the game

01:13:23 ◼   ► that maybe you'll wanna...

01:13:24 ◼   ► But I don't even know if that's the thing that happens.

01:13:26 ◼   ► It's weird.

01:13:27 ◼   ► I think it's the weirdest part of this.

01:13:29 ◼   ► And to me, it's interesting

01:13:31 ◼   ► because it's like this is a nice app.

01:13:33 ◼   ► Like, and then a lot of the conversation has been focused

01:13:35 ◼   ► around Apple and sports betting,

01:13:37 ◼   ► which is just like, you know, it's something.

01:13:39 ◼   ► - By the way, one of the things

01:13:40 ◼   ► that our dear video producer Chip pointed out

01:13:43 ◼   ► to us just now, which I alluded to,

01:13:45 ◼   ► but I didn't mention in detail.

01:13:48 ◼   ► Sports betting is only legal in certain states in the US.

01:13:51 ◼   ► - Right.

01:13:52 ◼   ► - So if they were to want to interlink in the US,

01:13:56 ◼   ► they would have to do like geography

01:13:58 ◼   ► down to the state level and stuff.

01:14:00 ◼   ► And I think that honestly, direct betting links in the app

01:14:04 ◼   ► alone was aligned too far,

01:14:06 ◼   ► but certainly it adds enormous complexity

01:14:08 ◼   ► if you go beyond that.

01:14:09 ◼   ► But I think that, I don't think that they wanna do it.

01:14:11 ◼   ► - No.

01:14:12 ◼   ► But you mentioned linking out.

01:14:15 ◼   ► One of the things that this app does

01:14:17 ◼   ► is if there is a service, a streaming service that has-

01:14:22 ◼   ► - Connected to Apple TV.

01:14:25 ◼   ► - It's connected to Apple TV

01:14:27 ◼   ► that is showing the game that you're looking at live,

01:14:30 ◼   ► you can tap a button to take you to the app.

01:14:35 ◼   ► - To take you to the TV app.

01:14:37 ◼   ► - To TV app, to watch it.

01:14:38 ◼   ► - Take you to the TV app from which you can go

01:14:42 ◼   ► to the provider or start a live activity

01:14:47 ◼   ► from the TV app for that event.

01:14:52 ◼   ► So basically the link in the sports app

01:14:53 ◼   ► is open an Apple TV app, and then in the TV app,

01:14:58 ◼   ► you can watch it if you have an interlinked thing

01:15:00 ◼   ► where you can follow the live activity

01:15:01 ◼   ► if they offer a live activity for it.

01:15:03 ◼   ► Which is weird, right?

01:15:04 ◼   ► Because it's a bunch of extra taps in a different app,

01:15:08 ◼   ► but that's how they built it right now

01:15:10 ◼   ► because those features already exist, right?

01:15:11 ◼   ► They're already in the TV app.

01:15:13 ◼   ► So they're just sort of like,

01:15:15 ◼   ► I don't know whether this is a philosophy

01:15:16 ◼   ► that Apple wants to follow broadly,

01:15:19 ◼   ► which is a whole bunch of small focused apps

01:15:22 ◼   ► that interconnect, or if it's more just a function

01:15:25 ◼   ► of this app being built late.

01:15:27 ◼   ► After that, those features are elsewhere.

01:15:29 ◼   ► And so for now, they're just interlinking,

01:15:32 ◼   ► but that the goal in the longterm

01:15:33 ◼   ► would be to integrate it all in the app itself.

01:15:36 ◼   ► Six and one half dozen of another right now.

01:15:40 ◼   ► I can see the advantage of both.

01:15:42 ◼   ► - On upgradey award-winning

01:15:44 ◼   ► and my favorite podcast, "The Town,"

01:15:47 ◼   ► Matt Bellini of Puck, his prediction that he made

01:15:50 ◼   ► at the end of the episode is that this is the beginning

01:15:53 ◼   ► of Apple wanting to become the mega content provider.

01:15:57 ◼   ► And this is their beginning of that,

01:15:59 ◼   ► of everybody come to us and we'll program all of this

01:16:03 ◼   ► for you in our applications and people,

01:16:05 ◼   ► like in Apple sports, right?

01:16:07 ◼   ► They would become the program guide for this.

01:16:11 ◼   ► And I was listening to it and I was like,

01:16:13 ◼   ► that's a great idea,

01:16:14 ◼   ► but I don't believe people are gonna let them.

01:16:16 ◼   ► I don't think that, I think if that was the case,

01:16:20 ◼   ► then the TV app would be more successful than it is,

01:16:22 ◼   ► but maybe for sports, it is more successful

01:16:25 ◼   ► than it is for other types of content.

01:16:27 ◼   ► - I would actually argue that this is a great leg up

01:16:30 ◼   ► for the TV app because people are gonna be more interested

01:16:33 ◼   ► in sports who might not even know that the TV app

01:16:36 ◼   ► knows what their favorite teams are

01:16:37 ◼   ► and can immediately take them to the app

01:16:39 ◼   ► that's got that team's game live.

01:16:42 ◼   ► And if you're thinking like people are,

01:16:43 ◼   ► the future of sports is people watching on their iPhones,

01:16:45 ◼   ► let's say, then having a scores app that will immediately

01:16:50 ◼   ► or through a second app,

01:16:52 ◼   ► which is why I think that ideally you can't,

01:16:54 ◼   ► you've got to integrate it into this app directly,

01:16:56 ◼   ► but like using that data to say, oh, well, you've got max.

01:17:01 ◼   ► So you can see this game on, it's the NBA on TNT.

01:17:04 ◼   ► That's how I did it when I was testing this out

01:17:06 ◼   ► on the first or second day I was out.

01:17:08 ◼   ► It's like there was an NBA game on and I have max,

01:17:11 ◼   ► which means for now at least I have the bleacher report add

01:17:14 ◼   ► on 'cause they're giving it away for a limited time.

01:17:18 ◼   ► And it just put me into the NBA game

01:17:20 ◼   ► that I was looking at that was live.

01:17:22 ◼   ► That is potentially pretty powerful, right?

01:17:25 ◼   ► Because if you're those sources,

01:17:29 ◼   ► whether it's something like YouTube TV or Fubo or Hulu Plus,

01:17:34 ◼   ► or whether it's Paramount Plus with the CBS stuff

01:17:39 ◼   ► or the spooloo thing that might happen,

01:17:41 ◼   ► which is the joint venture that might be coming this fall.

01:17:44 ◼   ► If Apple can be the premier sort of like,

01:17:50 ◼   ► we know what sports you care about

01:17:51 ◼   ► and we can get you to the video or the score or whatever

01:17:55 ◼   ► as quickly as possible, there's value in that.

01:17:58 ◼   ► And it makes more sense for that to come out

01:18:00 ◼   ► of the sports app than it does to come out

01:18:01 ◼   ► of the sports area of the TV app,

01:18:05 ◼   ► because it's not even a tab, right?

01:18:06 ◼   ► It's a scroll down on the iPhone.

01:18:09 ◼   ► On the Apple TV, it is a tab,

01:18:11 ◼   ► but on the iPhone, it's a sort of scroll down

01:18:13 ◼   ► until you get to the sports and then tap sports.

01:18:15 ◼   ► And then it takes you to the sports page,

01:18:17 ◼   ► which is not quite as exciting.

01:18:19 ◼   ► - No.

01:18:20 ◼   ► Do you think that this is also just a continuing signal

01:18:24 ◼   ► that they would like to have more content of their own?

01:18:28 ◼   ► Like more than just MLS, like Apple sports,

01:18:31 ◼   ► it's like they want more leagues, they want more?

01:18:33 ◼   ► - I think they do, but I think they also want

01:18:35 ◼   ► to be an aggregator of other people's content, right?

01:18:39 ◼   ► I think that they do want to have some sports content

01:18:43 ◼   ► of their own and they find value in that.

01:18:45 ◼   ► But when you think about how many iPhones are out there

01:18:50 ◼   ► and also potentially doing this on Apple TV,

01:18:52 ◼   ► although there's some questions about the success of that,

01:18:54 ◼   ► but how many iPhones are out there?

01:18:56 ◼   ► And maybe we throw in iPads, but especially the iPhone.

01:19:00 ◼   ► Having all of your sports, like knowing your favorite teams

01:19:05 ◼   ► and having Apple be the mediator to say,

01:19:08 ◼   ► oh, this favorite team is now on,

01:19:09 ◼   ► especially with the sports world fractured like it is,

01:19:12 ◼   ► where like, oh, where is my favorite team's game?

01:19:14 ◼   ► It's on ESPN tonight, but then Friday night it's on Apple.

01:19:18 ◼   ► And in the meantime, it's on local cable

01:19:20 ◼   ► that I get through YouTube TV or whatever, right?