502: It's the Way Towards Colour


00:00:00   (music)

00:00:08   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 502 for March 4th, 2024.

00:00:15   Today's show is brought to you by Fitbod, ExpressVPN, and Squarespace.

00:00:20   My name is Mike Hurley, and I'm joined by Jason Snow. Hi, Jason.

00:00:23   - Hi, Mike. We are marching forth today. - March the 4th be with you, Jason.

00:00:28   - Mm-hmm, and also with four. - With all four.

00:00:33   I have a Snow Talk question. It comes from John, and John wants to know,

00:00:37   "Jason, did you ever attend the Apple Expos in Europe when they were a thing?"

00:00:43   - Gonna be an easy answer, no. - Okay. What were they?

00:00:47   - We did, Apple did some events in Paris. - Yeah.

00:00:51   - We did send, I think we sent Phil Michaels to one of those.

00:00:55   We sent people to them occasionally, but basically they were like little European

00:00:59   trade shows, but that Apple was the driver of, not IDG, and they did them for a few

00:01:05   years, and then they stopped. But they made some minor announcements there.

00:01:10   No, we didn't, I never went. I've never been, I have never been to France.

00:01:17   I have been through France on a train, but a couple of times,

00:01:23   but I've never been to France. So, I have no, no is my answer.

00:01:28   - Probably the biggest thing announced there was Mac OS X public beta.

00:01:34   Look at the Wikipedia page. - Yeah.

00:01:36   - It's got iCloud and iSync in 2002, big deal. - Uh-huh.

00:01:40   - Big deal. If you would like to send in a question for us to open a future episode

00:01:46   of Upgrade, just like John did, go to upgradefeedback.com and send in a Snow

00:01:51   Talk of your own. I have some follow-up for you, Jason.

00:01:55   - Okay. - So, we've got a number of people

00:01:58   write in with various pieces of follow-up about the sports betting lines and odds

00:02:03   in the sports app. Ryan and Peter both wrote in to say that while they never

00:02:07   place bets, they're interested in the odds as a tool to help predict an outcome of a

00:02:11   game, which is good to know. Chris says, "If a person doesn't have a

00:02:16   particular interest in either team, maybe they don't know much about them,

00:02:19   but would want to know who the underdog is," which is also a good thing.

00:02:23   And Logan wrote in with something I thought was quite funny, saying,

00:02:25   "The data source for the Apple Sports app is too fast. I'm watching the Warriors

00:02:29   game live on YouTube TV, and I can find out if a team scores before they even

00:02:33   cross half court." - Yeah.

00:02:35   - Yeah. - It's true.

00:02:38   Streaming is often behind what you'd see on, like, more traditional TV,

00:02:41   and I found actually that the local feeds are further behind for whatever reason.

00:02:46   So, yes. And, you know, Eddy Cue is standing at courtside demanding immediacy,

00:02:51   and then you get -- do they have to put in a delay for, you know,

00:02:54   can you set your streaming delay so that you aren't spoiled by it?

00:02:57   I mean, probably if you're watching the game, you shouldn't need to look down

00:03:00   to see the score. - Or I feel like maybe push notifications

00:03:03   so you wouldn't want -- I don't know if -- I don't know if the sports app does them,

00:03:06   but you maybe wouldn't want that in some of these apps.

00:03:09   - Well, yeah, the TV app does, though, so you might see, like,

00:03:12   "It's a close game," and be like, "Uh..." - Is it?

00:03:14   - I actually had that happen during the Super Bowl where I was --

00:03:17   where it was very clear that the 49ers were going to give up that touchdown

00:03:21   to lose the Super Bowl, and I got condolences from a friend

00:03:26   before the final player was run. - Oh.

00:03:29   What service did you watch the Super Bowl on?

00:03:33   - On Fubo, on my local TV channel, CBS, which, like I said,

00:03:37   the local streams are further behind.

00:03:39   - We were talking about how we don't like Apple News because of the news sources.

00:03:43   Jeffrey, I'm of a top tip for anybody who wants to use Apple News to say,

00:03:47   if you go to Settings, News, and Restrict Stories in Today,

00:03:50   you can see just stories from the sources that you choose to follow

00:03:53   rather than the stuff that's recommended.

00:03:55   - So I turned this feature on. - Very good.

00:03:58   - And it makes Apple News really weird.

00:04:00   - Okay. - And there are still a lot of things

00:04:04   where you are seeing weird sources. - Uh-huh.

00:04:07   - But I will say, yeah, it does make it better if you basically say,

00:04:11   look, just don't show me literally anything I haven't said as a source.

00:04:15   - Uh-huh. - That, it makes it better.

00:04:18   So I appreciate it.

00:04:20   Again, I still don't feel like Apple News's judgment

00:04:24   about what I want to see.

00:04:26   It matches at all what I want to see.

00:04:28   So I think it's a product I would like to refrain from using,

00:04:31   but I will say thank you to Jeff

00:04:34   because it's a lot less terrible source-wise.

00:04:38   So yeah, that's a good feature.

00:04:40   - We were talking about the television app by Sandwich for VisionOS.

00:04:46   The version 1.1 is out now, which has YouTube support.

00:04:52   And they also put a couple more TVs in it.

00:04:54   So I was just watching a 5.12 video on a Macintosh TV

00:04:59   before we started recording today to get that full experience.

00:05:02   - Nice. - So you can now watch YouTube in it,

00:05:03   which is really good. That's a good addition to the app.

00:05:06   Very fun. - And the Mac TV.

00:05:08   - Yeah, the Macintosh TV. It's in there.

00:05:10   - Yeah. - And so on last week's episode,

00:05:13   we were also talking about the idea

00:05:15   of how a HomePod with a screen could work.

00:05:19   And I was saying that maybe it would be cool

00:05:21   if you could have some kind of eye-tracking

00:05:23   or hand-tracking gestures to use the interface.

00:05:26   Basically, as soon as we finished recording,

00:05:28   I was on Threads and I saw a post

00:05:31   from Swift student challenge developer Vedat of Vedat Apps.

00:05:35   They posted a video of their submission of their app

00:05:37   doing exactly this. So I think they're using it on a Mac.

00:05:42   No, it's on an iPad. It's on an iPad of Magic keyboard.

00:05:46   They're using hand tracking,

00:05:47   which I think is part of the accessibility stuff

00:05:50   to highlight UI. And it kind of looks similar to tvOS.

00:05:55   So I thought that was kind of funny.

00:05:56   Like the technology kind of exists.

00:05:58   It maybe could work as a way to use a device like this.

00:06:02   Would be pretty cool.

00:06:04   - Yeah. Good.

00:06:04   Thank you to Vedant for sending that in.

00:06:08   It's just, it's all things are possible.

00:06:11   - iOS 17.4 is due out today or this week,

00:06:17   like next couple of days.

00:06:19   So it will be interesting to see how the DMA stuff advances

00:06:22   over the coming days.

00:06:23   If we're going to get any more about it,

00:06:24   any more information.

00:06:26   Setapp has announced that it plans

00:06:28   to offer an alternative app marketplace in April.

00:06:32   They have said that it will showcase a carefully selected

00:06:35   assortment of apps,

00:06:36   including fan favorites from the Setapp catalog.

00:06:40   Developers are able to apply to be in their marketplace now.

00:06:43   I'm intrigued how that's going to work.

00:06:45   - The way that this is phrased is interesting.

00:06:46   Cause as we've said, if you are a developer of an app

00:06:50   and you want to be in an alternative marketplace,

00:06:55   you have to opt into the new terms for Europe.

00:06:59   So I was thinking about this,

00:07:02   it can't be a one-to-one for Setapp apps

00:07:05   in a Setapp marketplace,

00:07:06   because some of the apps that are in Setapp

00:07:09   are probably not going to want to be in,

00:07:13   aren't going to want to opt into the new terms, right?

00:07:16   So it's a selected assortment,

00:07:20   including some from the Setapp catalog.

00:07:22   Like it'll be interesting to see how they position

00:07:23   this whole thing, but that's going to be the challenge,

00:07:27   right?

00:07:27   Setapp as a collection and as a product with a subscription,

00:07:32   well, that's one thing,

00:07:33   but like as an alternative marketplace,

00:07:35   the only apps in there will be apps that choose to be a part

00:07:38   of the European alternate terms.

00:07:42   And we'll see how they feel about that.

00:07:44   - And also for Setapp as well,

00:07:48   like maybe they're going to want the apps

00:07:51   that they would be willing to pay the core technology fee

00:07:54   for, right?

00:07:56   Like there is an element of any app that a company

00:08:00   like this brings onto the marketplace.

00:08:03   They kind of maybe want it to make sense for them.

00:08:07   And you know, like there's gotta be some element there,

00:08:10   but I'll be interested to see how it works,

00:08:12   but we won't see it,

00:08:13   but we'll see other people talk about it, I guess,

00:08:17   because we won't be able to see them.

00:08:17   - Yes.

00:08:19   Yes, I look forward to hearing from Europeans

00:08:21   about how this goes.

00:08:22   - Yep.

00:08:23   - Today, the European commission has issued a 1.9 billion

00:08:27   Euro fine to Apple for quote abusive app store rules

00:08:31   to music streaming providers.

00:08:33   There are two--

00:08:33   - Today.

00:08:34   - Indeed.

00:08:35   - This is not the DMA, but it is today.

00:08:36   - It's very today.

00:08:38   I mean, I feel like it fits in here, right?

00:08:41   Like it's adjacent to the DMA.

00:08:43   So it's European legislation corner.

00:08:46   - Very nearby.

00:08:47   - So there's two press releases

00:08:50   I'm going to put in the show notes.

00:08:51   One is from the European commission.

00:08:52   One is from Apple.

00:08:53   I think I saw the Apple one first.

00:08:55   I don't know who published first,

00:08:56   but obviously Apple knew this was coming today.

00:08:58   I think we spoke about this last week or the week before

00:09:01   that there was a fine coming,

00:09:04   but it was much less expected than 1.9 billion.

00:09:07   So the European commission post says things like

00:09:10   the commission found that Apple applied restrictions

00:09:12   on app developers,

00:09:14   preventing them from informing iOS users about alternative

00:09:17   and cheaper music subscription services available outside

00:09:20   of the app, quote anti-steering provisions.

00:09:23   This is illegal under EU antitrust rules

00:09:26   and Apple's conduct, which lasted for almost 10 years,

00:09:29   may have led many iOS users to pay significantly higher

00:09:32   prices for music streaming subscriptions

00:09:34   because of the high commission fee imposed by Apple

00:09:37   on developers and passed on to consumers

00:09:40   in the form of higher subscription prices

00:09:42   for the same service on the Apple app store.

00:09:45   I will just say,

00:09:46   I will commend the European commission

00:09:48   for making a very readable press release.

00:09:51   Like when I opened it up, I was like,

00:09:53   this is going to be full of legal stuff,

00:09:54   but I actually found it to be very readable and clear,

00:09:57   which I appreciated.

00:09:58   Apple publish a post of their own saying things like quote,

00:10:02   "The decision was reached despite the commission's failure

00:10:04   to uncover any credible evidence of consumer harm

00:10:08   and ignores the realities of a market that is thriving,

00:10:11   competitive and growing fast.

00:10:14   Today, Spotify has a 56% share

00:10:16   of Europe's music streaming market,

00:10:18   more than double their closest competitors

00:10:21   and pays Apple nothing for the services

00:10:23   that have helped make them one of the most recognizable.

00:10:27   Spotify wants to bend the rules in their favor

00:10:29   by embedding subscription prices in their app

00:10:31   without using the app store's in-app purchase system.

00:10:36   They want to use Apple's tools and technologies,

00:10:39   distribute on the app store and benefit from the trust

00:10:42   we've built with users and to pay Apple nothing for it."

00:10:47   Apple's post is very big, long and dripping

00:10:50   with feelings.

00:10:52   - Scoring.

00:10:54   - Apple will appeal to this decision,

00:10:56   as you would assume.

00:10:58   Do I need to restate how I feel about this?

00:11:02   I think it's honestly wild to me

00:11:05   that Apple tries to pretend

00:11:08   that the steering stuff doesn't exist.

00:11:10   I find that so strange.

00:11:13   - We can see it, you know.

00:11:16   - I pay.

00:11:16   - We were looking right at it.

00:11:17   - Yeah, like I pay more money for my YouTube subscription

00:11:21   because I choose to do it in the app store.

00:11:25   Now, how is that, like me as a consumer,

00:11:30   my experience, I'm paying more money because of it.

00:11:34   So, so what then, you know?

00:11:37   Like this is exactly what Europe's saying,

00:11:40   that people are paying more money for their subscriptions

00:11:43   because companies increase the prices

00:11:45   so they're not taking a 30% cut

00:11:48   because Apple wants a 30% cut on our,

00:11:51   in some instances, I think arguably for not a lot of reason,

00:11:54   I think Spotify is one of these.

00:11:55   Like Apple did not, Apple would like you to believe

00:11:59   that Spotify is successful because of them.

00:12:01   I don't believe that's the case at all,

00:12:04   but that's what Apple is trying to say.

00:12:06   - No, the nice thing about that Apple newsroom press release

00:12:09   is it lays out Apple's argument very clearly,

00:12:12   which is successful apps that are on the iPhone

00:12:17   are successful in part because of all of Apple's good works

00:12:22   and that Apple is a partner to you.

00:12:24   And quite frankly, Apple's not thrilled

00:12:27   that they let you do that without giving them any money,

00:12:30   but they're willing to accept that

00:12:33   as long as you accept all their rules.

00:12:34   Like you can see the attitude, it's very clear.

00:12:37   This is the attitude that has driven Apple.

00:12:39   So they're doing us a favor by making it very clear

00:12:42   about their approach here.

00:12:44   Now, I do think they score some points.

00:12:46   I think Spotify, look, Spotify not wanting to be part

00:12:52   of the reader app thing apparently is interesting, right?

00:12:57   'Cause that was Apple's like,

00:12:58   well, we'll let you put a link in.

00:12:59   It was a very dumb thing, right?

00:13:02   It was a smallest of concessions possible.

00:13:05   Spotify could have taken them up on it

00:13:06   and that would have lessened the blow.

00:13:07   And I think that's why they didn't.

00:13:08   So Apple calling them out, I kind of get that.

00:13:11   - I think it would have completely undermined their case,

00:13:14   which I think is fair to make, right?

00:13:15   Like if they would have taken that,

00:13:17   then they have no case anymore.

00:13:18   - But it allows Apple to score a point in reverse saying,

00:13:21   we gave them the ability to do the thing

00:13:23   that they're complaining about and they refused.

00:13:26   But again, yes, I can see both sides,

00:13:30   but I think it allows Apple to make that point.

00:13:32   It's interesting, like Apple's point is,

00:13:33   oh, but Spotify's successful anyway.

00:13:34   And it's like, well, yeah, but like they're successful

00:13:37   even though you have in-app purchase

00:13:39   with no commission to any middleman and they don't,

00:13:43   and they're still successful.

00:13:44   That doesn't necessarily mean

00:13:45   that they wouldn't be more successful still

00:13:48   if you were not doing these rules.

00:13:51   And these are the worst rules, right?

00:13:52   These anti-steering rules where it's like no,

00:13:55   don't admit that you have a service outside the app store.

00:13:58   Don't admit that there's a place

00:14:00   you can go to pay for things.

00:14:01   Just put up a screen that says,

00:14:04   log in with that account you made somewhere else.

00:14:06   We don't even know where, right?

00:14:07   Like it is-- They are the most flimsy

00:14:10   because it's like, oh, physical purchases.

00:14:12   No, no, they're okay.

00:14:14   It's like, what difference does it make?

00:14:16   Like why does Amazon not have to use in-app purchase

00:14:20   to buy things from Amazon?

00:14:22   But because music is digital for some reason,

00:14:25   like it doesn't, the steering stuff

00:14:28   is the worst of the worst.

00:14:30   And I would say this is the worst

00:14:34   when Apple has a direct competitor, right?

00:14:36   Like that's the biggest problem is.

00:14:39   And the like Apple music is pre-installed

00:14:44   on every iPhone, right?

00:14:46   Like Apple has so many advantages here.

00:14:50   And the fact, and this is the same with like

00:14:52   something like books versus Kindle, it's the same thing,

00:14:55   which is Apple has this home field advantage

00:14:57   and they built a product to take advantage

00:15:00   of the fact that they're the platform owner.

00:15:01   That's the stuff that really irks me.

00:15:03   So I appreciate Apple's post

00:15:07   because it really gets to the heart

00:15:08   of sort of what Apple's philosophy is about all of this,

00:15:11   which comes back to, I think,

00:15:12   a core part of Apple's corporate personality,

00:15:15   which is that anything that succeeds

00:15:17   that involves the iPhone,

00:15:19   Apple is one of the reasons it succeeded.

00:15:21   And on one level that's true,

00:15:23   but what I very rarely see is the reciprocal from Apple,

00:15:26   which is the iPhone has also succeeded

00:15:28   because of the apps that are on it.

00:15:30   Apple really, their attitude is that

00:15:33   they created a beautiful marketplace

00:15:35   and everybody came to the marketplace

00:15:37   and Apple is the landlord and Apple wants its rent.

00:15:41   And that's just the way that Apple views it.

00:15:43   And it's been clear all along,

00:15:45   but this newsroom post kind of clarifies that further.

00:15:48   I mean, there are like, look, I think that there are,

00:15:50   I have questions about some of the EU rulings

00:15:53   because to the point of bashing a market market,

00:15:59   market leaders competitor for not letting the market leader

00:16:04   have even more advantage.

00:16:05   It's like, there's the practical

00:16:07   and then there's the real, right?

00:16:09   There's like detail of like, well, Apple's a platform owner

00:16:11   and they're using their platform powers.

00:16:13   It's true.

00:16:13   Also, we're protecting the dominant player

00:16:17   from one of its competitors.

00:16:19   And it's worse 'cause it's the dominant Europe-based

00:16:22   competitor over the American company

00:16:25   that's not in first place.

00:16:27   Like there are ways to read this that are very protectionist

00:16:31   and also silly in the same way that the books ruling

00:16:36   against Apple was silly in that what it was doing

00:16:38   was protecting the dominant force over competition.

00:16:42   But that all said, like, I think in the end,

00:16:46   we've been talking about this a lot.

00:16:49   This is about Apple.

00:16:50   This is some of the worst of Apple's policies, right?

00:16:53   'Cause this is literally pretend, no web links.

00:16:57   Like you can't go out to a web browser.

00:16:59   You can't tell people that you have things.

00:17:02   That's just some of the worst of what they do.

00:17:05   - Yeah, the protectionist argument, I don't really like.

00:17:09   Like I know that people make it,

00:17:10   but it's just like, this is Spotify

00:17:12   going to their government.

00:17:13   Like, would it really, something like this will,

00:17:16   if it hasn't already started happening in America,

00:17:18   it doesn't actually make a difference.

00:17:19   Like the fact that they're in Europe,

00:17:21   they're just going to the, they're going to the government

00:17:23   is gonna help them out the most.

00:17:25   There was one other thing that I really liked.

00:17:26   I can't find the quote now just in skimming through it,

00:17:28   but they reference, Apple references in one point

00:17:31   about at one point they sent like some of their developers

00:17:35   to Spotify to help them with some stuff.

00:17:37   Yeah, we've flown our engineers to Stockholm

00:17:40   to help Spotify's teams in person.

00:17:42   And they talk about again, and again,

00:17:44   Spotify pays Apple nothing.

00:17:46   And that to me is like kind of proving the point

00:17:49   of how like Apple values Spotify being on their platform

00:17:54   because they know it's important

00:17:56   for the selling of their iPhones.

00:17:58   Like, I feel like this is that,

00:17:59   in trying to make their point about how helpful Apple is,

00:18:03   I think it kind of, the mask slips a little bit

00:18:06   about the other point, which is Apple also needs Spotify

00:18:09   to be on their phones, because if it wasn't,

00:18:12   there would be an amount of people

00:18:13   who would be less satisfied with their iPhone.

00:18:16   - See, I think this section also is,

00:18:18   I think it's actually dumb.

00:18:20   I think this is a case where Apple is way over its skis now,

00:18:23   because what it's describing here is,

00:18:27   wow, Apple's really running a terrible business, right?

00:18:30   Because if Spotify is truly doing all of this

00:18:35   and Apple gives them nothing, like is that out of largess?

00:18:37   Like what it says to me is,

00:18:39   maybe you should have chosen a different set of rules

00:18:42   where a company like Spotify building a huge business

00:18:46   on your platform, maybe you and Spotify

00:18:47   should have worked out some sort of agreement about it.

00:18:49   But instead, what they're left with is,

00:18:51   well, you kind of gave the rules for free

00:18:53   and they took advantage.

00:18:55   So now we're putting the screws to them

00:18:57   because it's the only, these are the rules

00:18:59   that let us put the screws to them.

00:19:00   And there's no alternative, right?

00:19:01   There's no alternative involving competition.

00:19:05   Their only alternative is to give Apple 30%.

00:19:07   Those are their choices here.

00:19:09   So I look at this and it actually makes me chuckle

00:19:12   'cause it's like, oh, we did all this stuff for free.

00:19:14   We give and give and give, and they still want more.

00:19:17   And I look at it and go, well, maybe that's dumb.

00:19:21   Like maybe you should have had a different model,

00:19:25   but this is the model you chose

00:19:26   and patching it with very weird,

00:19:29   it doesn't justify the 30% cut, right?

00:19:32   It doesn't, it's unconnected from them.

00:19:37   Spotify plays Apple at nothing.

00:19:39   It sure is hard to beat free, they say, okay.

00:19:43   And also like this idea that they say all the time,

00:19:45   like we treat all developers equally.

00:19:48   I mean, clearly not, right?

00:19:49   Because you sent developers to Sweden to help them.

00:19:55   And the same, like we frequently expedite reviews

00:19:58   at Spotify's requests, frequently?

00:20:00   I don't think most developers

00:20:02   get frequent expedited reviews.

00:20:05   They get, I think there's a limit to it, right?

00:20:07   That you can actually ask for a year for most apps.

00:20:11   So there you go.

00:20:13   - Yeah, it is the, it's funny because the DMA is coming

00:20:18   and this is like the fine for everything

00:20:20   in front of the DMA, essentially.

00:20:23   If you want a clear distillation of how Apple views it,

00:20:25   I think that the newsroom post is very, very well written

00:20:29   and makes Apple's case very clear.

00:20:32   But, and I think that, like I said,

00:20:35   I think they score some points in there,

00:20:36   but I think in general, it is trying to make the best

00:20:41   of a situation that, look, it built these rules

00:20:45   and then felt it was being exploited.

00:20:47   So it built more rules inside of it.

00:20:49   And then it built more rules inside of that.

00:20:51   And those rules turned out to be not,

00:20:53   be anti-competitive and rent-seeking and all those things.

00:20:55   And like, this is why on one level,

00:20:58   I kind of feel like what Apple,

00:21:00   like Apple's decision to have new business terms in the EU,

00:21:04   on one level, that really does make sense

00:21:06   'cause it is Apple saying, all right,

00:21:09   let's change the rules.

00:21:10   But it only changes the rules in the one place

00:21:12   and you have to opt in.

00:21:13   It's like, okay, all right.

00:21:15   It's, it is what it is.

00:21:16   It's, Apple will appeal the decision.

00:21:19   So, oh boy, we'll probably talk about it more in the future.

00:21:21   Plus we're entering the DMA era.

00:21:23   So we'll see how that changes things.

00:21:25   - I'm in my DMA era.

00:21:28   It's everyone's favorite.

00:21:33   This episode is brought to you by Fitbaud.

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00:23:17   I really love the way that Fitbaud works

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00:23:28   But if I see the name of an exercise I'm not familiar with

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00:24:00   and Relay FM.

00:24:04   - So this morning there was another press release.

00:24:08   It followed the Spotify press release.

00:24:11   Introducing the world to the M3 MacBook Air.

00:24:15   - Yeah. - Above 13 and 15 inches.

00:24:18   - I'd like to thank Apple for finally lining

00:24:21   its product announcements with upgrade.

00:24:23   We appreciate it.

00:24:25   - Yes.

00:24:26   Well, at least this one.

00:24:27   We don't know.

00:24:28   I feel like maybe there's some other stuff coming.

00:24:30   You don't think so? - Finally.

00:24:32   - Well, this is it, the only one.

00:24:34   - Just, Mike, just declare victory.

00:24:36   I clearly, this is what it's gonna be like

00:24:38   from now on forever, okay?

00:24:39   - A mission accomplished banner just fell behind me.

00:24:42   - Great. - We did it.

00:24:44   So there's a few things about this one.

00:24:45   I'm gonna read a couple of little quotes.

00:24:47   So we've got the midnight colorway now features

00:24:49   the breakthrough anodization seal to reduce fingerprints.

00:24:53   That was in the space black MacBook Pro, is that right?

00:24:57   - That's right.

00:24:58   - So midnight, which has become a little bit of a joke,

00:25:01   I think in some circles as being the fingerprint version.

00:25:03   They've now added that,

00:25:05   which I think just makes that color even better.

00:25:07   It's not that bad, no.

00:25:08   - By the way, to be clear, jargon alert,

00:25:10   you're the one who said colorway.

00:25:12   The word colorway has not yet appeared

00:25:14   in an Apple press release.

00:25:15   - I mean, at this point though, come on.

00:25:18   You don't like it?

00:25:20   - No, I just colorway. - 'Cause you like just color?

00:25:21   - A stupid word, color.

00:25:22   There's a word for it, it's color.

00:25:24   - I like color.

00:25:25   - What way is that color?

00:25:26   - It's the way towards color, you know?

00:25:28   That's what it means.

00:25:29   It's this way towards color.

00:25:31   I have no problem with colorway.

00:25:32   Although I am a person who doesn't like jargon,

00:25:35   so maybe I should get rid of that one

00:25:37   because I've got to kind of like live to my own ideals

00:25:40   in this world.

00:25:41   The M3 MacBook Air features Wi-Fi 6E,

00:25:44   which is apparently two times faster, which is nice.

00:25:47   But here's the big thing.

00:25:48   Here's the thing, we've burned a lot of minutes

00:25:51   talking about this exact idea.

00:25:54   MacBook Air with M3 now supports up to two external displays

00:25:58   when the laptop lid is closed.

00:26:01   So it can support one display of up to 6K

00:26:05   and then a second up to 5K resolution.

00:26:09   - That's right.

00:26:09   - Now this is really interesting

00:26:11   because this is the thing we were talking about a lot

00:26:15   that the M3 MacBook Pro didn't do this, right?

00:26:19   Like it was, you could just have your display open

00:26:24   and plug in one display.

00:26:25   If you tried to hook up a second display, it wouldn't work,

00:26:28   but also you can't just close it and see two displays.

00:26:33   It was your internal display and one external display

00:26:35   or bust, whether you're using the internal display or not.

00:26:39   What do you think is going on here?

00:26:40   What do you think they've done?

00:26:41   - I don't know.

00:26:43   I'm real interested in finding out

00:26:47   because this is not a feature in the M3 MacBook Pro

00:26:52   low-end model.

00:26:54   So what happened?

00:26:58   I don't know.

00:26:59   Is it something integral in the hardware

00:27:02   where the way they've integrated this display

00:27:06   allows it to do that?

00:27:07   Or is it, I don't know.

00:27:12   I mean, this is one of those things

00:27:13   where I look forward to talking to Apple

00:27:14   and asking them why this is like this now.

00:27:17   It's great.

00:27:18   The people who complained about this feature

00:27:21   will just shift to complaining

00:27:22   about how it doesn't do it lit open.

00:27:24   But for me, this is one of the major drawbacks

00:27:29   of the MacBook Air and Apple Silicon

00:27:31   that has been rectified.

00:27:32   - Yes.

00:27:33   - If you need to run three monitors simultaneously,

00:27:36   the two externals and the internal monitor,

00:27:40   buy a MacBook Pro.

00:27:42   - There's always one more monitor.

00:27:43   - I feel okay about that.

00:27:44   - There can always be one more.

00:27:45   - There will always be one more monitor.

00:27:47   - But this does make,

00:27:48   and I remember we were talking about this at the time

00:27:51   where we were like, why not, there are two displays.

00:27:55   Why not always run two displays,

00:27:57   whether it's open or close, right?

00:27:58   So if you've closed it, then run two displays.

00:28:01   And so it seems like they found a way to do it.

00:28:04   I wonder if this is going to like,

00:28:06   would you assume this has to be a hardware change?

00:28:10   I mean, I know we can maybe try

00:28:12   and find this information out,

00:28:14   but would you expect that this is a actual change

00:28:16   to the M3 chip?

00:28:20   - No, no, I think the chip has not changed at all.

00:28:23   I don't think, no, I think an M3 is an M3 is an M3.

00:28:26   I think it has to do with the particular,

00:28:28   it's either a firmware thing,

00:28:30   or it is a particular way that the MacBook Air

00:28:35   has been built to allow it to turn off.

00:28:38   'Cause remember the Mac mini supports two external displays,

00:28:41   with M1 and M2,

00:28:43   because it doesn't have a third display wired.

00:28:47   So it may just be the way that the display

00:28:50   on the MacBook Air is connected,

00:28:52   is different than the way it was,

00:28:55   the display was connected on the M2.

00:28:57   And it allows the system to shut down that display

00:29:02   and use that resource somewhere else.

00:29:04   But I don't know, right?

00:29:05   Like I don't know enough about

00:29:07   what all the moving parts are.

00:29:08   I don't expect that the chip is any different.

00:29:10   I don't think that's it.

00:29:11   I think it's how the computer was built,

00:29:13   or it's a firmware kind of thing

00:29:16   that they've updated the firmware

00:29:18   to shut down that internal display

00:29:23   and drive it to external displays.

00:29:25   And if it's firmware,

00:29:27   I mean, maybe they could do an update

00:29:29   that would enable that on the MacBook Pro.

00:29:32   That's what I have to ask.

00:29:33   But my gut feeling is that they built it

00:29:36   into the MacBook Air,

00:29:37   and that's why the MacBook Air can do this.

00:29:39   - 'Cause it would be a shame, I think,

00:29:42   if there wasn't a way to bring this capability

00:29:44   to the MacBook Pro.

00:29:45   Like, because I've got to wonder

00:29:49   if they worked on this capability

00:29:52   because of people talking about it on the MacBook Pro.

00:29:55   And then if like, if that's the case,

00:29:56   like it's a really strange thing to be like,

00:29:58   yeah, but the MacBook Air does it.

00:30:00   Don't worry about the MacBook Pro.

00:30:01   The MacBook Air does it.

00:30:03   'Cause you know, like we talk about this

00:30:05   and lots of people talk about this.

00:30:06   Like Apple's product lineups are strange

00:30:09   to work out sometimes.

00:30:11   And this would definitely make it more complicated, right?

00:30:14   Because this is a more powerful feature, right?

00:30:19   That the MacBook Air would have over the MacBook Pro.

00:30:23   - Right.

00:30:24   - For like getting work done.

00:30:26   - For the base model, yes.

00:30:28   - And the MacBook Pro is supposed to be the thing

00:30:31   that is the more powerful

00:30:33   to let you get the best work done, right?

00:30:34   - Right, but in the base model, you would pay more,

00:30:36   you would get that display, but you wouldn't get the two.

00:30:39   Well, I mean, it's not that complicated.

00:30:41   If you want to use two external displays,

00:30:44   don't get that one, get this one.

00:30:45   - Yes.

00:30:46   - And because the chip is the same.

00:30:48   So it's really just that,

00:30:49   but what you will lose is that beautiful internal display

00:30:54   that's on the MacBook Pro. - Which is really amazing.

00:30:56   This also does make me think that like,

00:30:58   one of the things that we were talking about at the time

00:31:00   is like we had expected that the MacBook Air

00:31:02   had kind of become the default machine that people get

00:31:07   in a lot of workplaces or should be.

00:31:11   And I feel like this just underscores that.

00:31:13   Like the MacBook Air 100% should be the computer

00:31:16   that your employer buys you,

00:31:17   unless you have a very specific need, right?

00:31:20   - Right, and we've heard those stories before,

00:31:22   and those will only continue now,

00:31:24   where somebody gets ends up with a substandard,

00:31:27   like just an M3 base MacBook Pro instead of a MacBook Air.

00:31:32   And they want to use two external displays

00:31:36   and they can't, right?

00:31:37   Like that'll happen.

00:31:40   And they'll be very frustrated

00:31:41   that there was another option out there

00:31:43   that would have done it

00:31:44   and probably given them better specs, right?

00:31:46   Because they would have been able to price it up

00:31:48   a little bit to get it to MacBook Pro base model price,

00:31:51   and it would have had more stuff in it.

00:31:53   And then it will just not,

00:31:54   their company will be like,

00:31:55   "Well, no, that's a consumer laptop.

00:31:56   We need a pro laptop."

00:31:58   Yeah, it's weird.

00:31:59   - And how about this paragraph for foreshadowing?

00:32:04   "With the transition to Apple Silicon,

00:32:05   every Mac is a great platform for AI.

00:32:09   M3 includes a faster, more efficient neural engine

00:32:12   along with accelerators in the CPU and GPU

00:32:14   to boost on-device machine learning,

00:32:16   making MacBook Air the world's best consumer laptop for AI."

00:32:21   - Right, which just means that it's Apple's consumer laptop

00:32:25   and it's got the new neural engine in the,

00:32:27   or with more cores in the M3.

00:32:30   - They're talking about AI.

00:32:32   - It's meaningless.

00:32:33   Yeah, AI has become a checkbox.

00:32:38   - Yeah.

00:32:39   - A bullet point.

00:32:40   You've got to mention,

00:32:41   everybody was like, "Well, what about AI?

00:32:42   I hear AI is big.

00:32:44   Can this computer do it, the AI?"

00:32:45   And Apple's like, "Yep, yep, great.

00:32:47   We got some stuff." - Well, boy, does it.

00:32:48   It does AI like you wouldn't believe.

00:32:50   But I feel like they have,

00:32:52   they've stayed away from using this term,

00:32:55   I feel like, by and large.

00:32:57   And it feels like,

00:32:58   I guess now they're just embracing it

00:32:59   as they should, I think.

00:33:00   - They're just embracing it, yeah.

00:33:02   So the, right,

00:33:04   'cause they lean on machine learning a lot more.

00:33:07   I think it's funny.

00:33:09   It's always funny to see what they use as their examples.

00:33:12   So for AI, it's like GoodNotes 6 with AI math assistance,

00:33:17   Pixelmator Pro photo enhancement,

00:33:21   background noise removal in CapCut.

00:33:24   Like, it's very specific.

00:33:27   Like, we've got some ML enhanced things in software,

00:33:31   and it could run LLMs and diffusion models

00:33:36   for image generation locally,

00:33:37   which I guess is basically like those apps

00:33:39   that you download the open source model and run it.

00:33:42   So, I mean, it's not untrue.

00:33:44   It's just something that,

00:33:46   just like how they always mention recyclability,

00:33:48   like these Macs have,

00:33:51   they say first Apple product to be made

00:33:53   with 50% recycled content, 100% of the aluminum,

00:33:56   but also 100% of the rare earth elements and magnets,

00:33:59   100% recycled copper in the main logic board,

00:34:01   which is a first for them.

00:34:03   So, and 99% fiber-based packaging, right?

00:34:05   Like, they always say that.

00:34:07   Well, it's a checkbox.

00:34:09   The environmental thing,

00:34:10   Apple got criticized like 20 years ago by Greenpeace.

00:34:13   And since then, it has been calling out

00:34:15   its environmental commitments in their PR.

00:34:17   And that's just part of what they do.

00:34:19   Well, the AI drum beat has gotten so loud

00:34:24   that they're like, all right, we'll list our AI,

00:34:28   we'll disclose our AI hardware that we've built,

00:34:31   that we've improved, and here it is,

00:34:34   just because somebody is gonna ask.

00:34:36   And like, does it address some of the questions

00:34:38   about Apple software and AI?

00:34:40   No, it does not.

00:34:42   But it does, they're pointing at the hardware

00:34:44   and they're pointing at the neural engine,

00:34:45   they're pointing at the stuff that they can point at

00:34:47   and say, yeah, sure.

00:34:48   We have an AI story too, and it's the neural engine.

00:34:51   - The lowest configs start with eight gigabytes of RAM.

00:34:55   I'm mentioning that 'cause there's always a thing, right?

00:34:59   It's always a good thing.

00:35:00   - Good to make people mad.

00:35:02   - Yep.

00:35:02   - We took the fingerprints away from you.

00:35:07   We took the two external displays away from you.

00:35:09   Where can people be mad?

00:35:10   - There's always gonna be something, we gotta find it.

00:35:13   We're gonna find it, and that's where it is.

00:35:15   - It's great, yeah.

00:35:18   Eight gigs of RAM, 256 gig SSD for 1099.

00:35:22   I'll just point out, that's an M3 at 1099.

00:35:26   Remember that the M2 MacBook Air started at what, 1299?

00:35:30   So they have managed to get the price down on these things.

00:35:34   And one of the ways they do it is those are configurations

00:35:37   you're probably gonna wanna upgrade.

00:35:38   So for 1299, you can get the 10 core GPU with 512 SSD.

00:35:43   And for 1499, you can get that product

00:35:47   that that sad person whose company bought them

00:35:49   an M3 MacBook Pro instead of the M3 MacBook Air.

00:35:52   This is the one that they want, right?

00:35:53   'Cause it's 10 core GPU, 16 gigs of RAM, 512 SSD for 1499,

00:35:58   which is a pretty good value.

00:36:01   But they got the base models down,

00:36:02   and then they pushed the,

00:36:04   the M2 version is still available at 999.

00:36:09   So that product has come way down

00:36:11   from when it was introduced a couple of years ago,

00:36:13   all the way to a base model at 999.

00:36:16   And I guess that means- - Yeah, so we say goodbye

00:36:18   to the old MacBook Air design, it's gone now.

00:36:21   - Farewell, and it is the classic MacBook Air design.

00:36:24   The M1 MacBook Air was sort of the last computer

00:36:28   to have the classic MacBook Air design.

00:36:30   And all of our talk about maybe they'll just keep it around

00:36:33   and keep getting it, nope, it's gone.

00:36:35   Just gone, gone, gone, gone.

00:36:38   And instead there's a 999 M2 Air,

00:36:41   899 in education, right?

00:36:43   So like they're basically saying that's it, right?

00:36:48   Like that's as low as they need to go.

00:36:50   They don't need to go with their laptop,

00:36:52   at least right now, any lower than that.

00:36:54   - It was funny, I was talking to my wife about this today.

00:36:57   I didn't use this as an M1 MacBook Air.

00:36:59   And I was just saying, "Oh, they did this."

00:37:00   And she's like, you know, saying,

00:37:02   "Oh, they got rid of the one that you have."

00:37:03   And she's like, "Oh no."

00:37:04   I'm like, "What?"

00:37:05   She's like, "I love the way that mine looks.

00:37:07   That's the one that I want.

00:37:08   Like I want to hang onto it for as long as possible."

00:37:10   I'm like, "Great, you can."

00:37:11   Like the M1 MacBook Air is great,

00:37:12   you'll have it for a long time.

00:37:14   And I'm like, "What do you like about it?"

00:37:15   She's like, "I like how sleek it is."

00:37:17   And I'm like, "You know, mine's thinner, right?"

00:37:18   She's like, "Yeah, but I like the curvy look of it."

00:37:20   Like it is a design style that some people prefer. And she does, she doesn't like mine. She's like, "It's too square, it's too boxy."

00:37:27   And she's like, "I like how light mine is."

00:37:29   I'm like, "Mine's lighter."

00:37:30   She's like, "No, but mine feels lighter."

00:37:32   I'm like, "What are you talking about?"

00:37:34   But you know, different strokes.

00:37:36   - Time moves on.

00:37:36   - Yep, it sure does.

00:37:38   - Yeah.

00:37:39   - There were rumors about this coming,

00:37:41   that there were going to be products released this week.

00:37:44   And I've got a report from MacRumors

00:37:48   where they had a source about some stuff

00:37:50   and they got it right that there would be MacBook Airs

00:37:52   and there would be, there are also new iPhone cases

00:37:54   and watch bands and stuff like that.

00:37:56   But the other big rumor out there is iPads.

00:38:00   So I wonder if we're going to see them,

00:38:01   hopefully next Monday, you know,

00:38:03   so that we can keep the upgrade train going here.

00:38:05   - Keep it running.

00:38:06   - Keep it running.

00:38:07   - Yeah, I think maybe so.

00:38:08   - We'll keep, that's what we'll assume next Monday.

00:38:10   But that's still on the horizon.

00:38:12   Do you have anything more to say on these MacBook Airs?

00:38:15   - No, I mean, can't wait to get my hands on them.

00:38:18   Interested to see,

00:38:18   oh yes, I have one other note,

00:38:20   which is in the pantheon of short-lived Apple products,

00:38:25   we must now induct the M2 15 inch MacBook Air.

00:38:31   - Oh yeah.

00:38:32   - Which is gone.

00:38:32   - Oh, they only, they don't do a quote unquote,

00:38:36   like cheaper model of the 15.

00:38:38   It's just the-

00:38:39   - No, just the 13.

00:38:41   So the 15 inch M2 MacBook Air,

00:38:44   which arrived last summer is now dead.

00:38:47   - Wow, but that's okay.

00:38:49   - That did not last a very long time.

00:38:50   - 'Cause the M3 models are exactly the same.

00:38:53   I mean, from all my read on that,

00:38:56   and this is the thing,

00:38:56   it's like this is an internals update,

00:38:59   it's really an M3 update.

00:39:01   Everything else about these things,

00:39:03   other than the anodization seal, yeah, yeah.

00:39:06   And the way, and how they look are the same.

00:39:09   So they, yeah, they don't wanna do a discounted 15.

00:39:15   They just want the current 15.

00:39:17   So they do that with some stuff, right?

00:39:19   Where it was like, well, no, but this is the,

00:39:21   there's only gonna be one of these.

00:39:23   We're not gonna, we hit our,

00:39:25   that old M2 is down there in the price list

00:39:28   for price reasons.

00:39:29   And the old 15 inch would not be down there, right?

00:39:32   It would be competing at a higher price

00:39:35   and they don't want that.

00:39:36   So the RIP M2 15 inch.

00:39:39   - Man, I gotta say stuff like this,

00:39:42   like that specific thing,

00:39:44   it's like, I would love to know

00:39:46   how Apple's inventory management works.

00:39:49   How could they have predicted the amount

00:39:52   that they would need for this period,

00:39:54   for a product that hadn't existed before?

00:39:57   - That's a good question.

00:39:59   I'm sure they watched the sales and stopped making them

00:40:01   when they felt they had enough, right?

00:40:03   And then they have outlets.

00:40:04   They'll have any leftovers end up getting in a,

00:40:08   they're put on Amazon or they're sold to partners

00:40:11   or like they can do it with the remnants of it.

00:40:13   But I think what they, starting last,

00:40:15   remember last summer, they're able to monitor 15 inch sales

00:40:19   and they don't, remember Apple doesn't like having

00:40:21   a lot of inventory on hand.

00:40:22   So they don't make, they wanna make

00:40:25   as many as they can sell.

00:40:26   So even if they made a bunch of,

00:40:28   the only time that Apple gets burned by that

00:40:30   is if they make a bunch of something upfront

00:40:31   and then the sales aren't anything close

00:40:33   'cause they have to fill the channel

00:40:34   and then they're like, oh no, we made so many,

00:40:37   we don't know if we'll ever empty the channel.

00:40:38   Like the HomePod was like that, right?

00:40:40   Original HomePod, they made a lot of them.

00:40:42   And then they realized that they were gonna struggle

00:40:46   to sell all of them.

00:40:47   But with a 15 inch AR, my guess is that that's not the case

00:40:50   and that they knew very quickly how many

00:40:52   they would need to make to get to this point.

00:40:54   And again, probably the M3 models are a minor change

00:40:58   in terms of manufacturing because they look

00:41:01   for all intents and purposes identical

00:41:04   to the ones that came before.

00:41:06   So it was probably not a huge change.

00:41:08   But yeah, that 15 inch model, gone, gone.

00:41:13   - I was well into my twenties before I realized

00:41:16   that that phrase was not intensive purposes,

00:41:19   all intensive purposes.

00:41:21   - No, it's not, it's intense and purposes.

00:41:25   It's one of those English phrases where you say,

00:41:27   where you are repetitive in order to make a point.

00:41:30   It's, you know, our language is very special.

00:41:35   - Very special, but whatever you do,

00:41:37   don't say colorway.

00:41:39   - It's, colorway is bad.

00:41:41   It's just a dumb, it's just dumb.

00:41:43   It's just dumb jargon.

00:41:46   Like how do we dress up a word?

00:41:47   Well, let's just add a little,

00:41:48   it's like saying incentivize.

00:41:51   It's like, or you could just say it gives an incentive.

00:41:54   No, no, no, it incentivizes the upsell of the, you know,

00:41:59   sorry, Merlin's got a list of all those terrible phrases.

00:42:01   Monetize and incentivize.

00:42:03   It's like, I like when people say copious, you know,

00:42:08   I feel like it's copious, it's like a word that people use.

00:42:11   So they sound smart, just say lots, it's fine.

00:42:14   - Yeah, I mean, there are fun words out there

00:42:17   that have fun meanings, but yeah, that's colorway.

00:42:19   I tweaked to colorway at some point because I thought,

00:42:22   oh, somebody just came up with like a stylish sounding word

00:42:27   for it is a color.

00:42:29   We offer this in, I mean, the other thing is colorway

00:42:33   can mean like a collection of colors.

00:42:35   I think in that way, it actually works for me

00:42:38   where I was like, well,

00:42:38   and you can see in our sandstone colorway,

00:42:42   we offer these various sort of like earth tones or whatever,

00:42:45   but when it's like, it comes in blue and brown,

00:42:48   those are our colorways.

00:42:49   It's like, no, those are just your colors, dude.

00:42:51   They're just colors, it's fine.

00:42:52   - The Oxford dictionary defines colorway

00:42:55   as any of a range of combinations of colors

00:42:59   in which a style or design is available.

00:43:03   - Combination of colors.

00:43:05   - And the word started being used in like the 1920s.

00:43:10   - Yeah, it's gross, make it die.

00:43:12   - This episode is brought to you by Express VPN.

00:43:16   There are tons of VPN providers out there,

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00:44:24   Hotel Wi-Fi is bad enough,

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00:45:01   One last time, expressvpn.com/upgrade to learn more.

00:45:05   Our thanks to Express VPN for the support of this show

00:45:08   and Relay FM.

00:45:09   We now get to do something that we have very seldom done

00:45:14   in the history of this show.

00:45:15   I'm not sure if you've ever done it.

00:45:17   We get to raise like a banner into the arena of upgrade,

00:45:23   the upshift podcast artwork, which was created

00:45:28   a couple of years ago for whenever we would talk

00:45:30   about Apple's car efforts.

00:45:32   We get to raise it up into the sky

00:45:35   for everybody to look up at because the Apple car--

00:45:39   - It's a weird metaphor.

00:45:40   - Is no more.

00:45:41   You know like, isn't that what you do in sports?

00:45:43   You like raise the jerseys?

00:45:45   - Well, you raise a banner if you win a championship,

00:45:48   you raise the jersey, you're retiring a number.

00:45:50   I think the way I would put this is,

00:45:52   we are doing a very special thing today,

00:45:54   which is we are retiring upshift as a topic on upgrade.

00:45:59   It's more than just the art, it's the topic, right?

00:46:04   It's beautiful art.

00:46:05   But like what we're really doing is we are saying goodbye

00:46:08   to a beloved question mark topic on our podcast,

00:46:13   because as goes the Apple car project,

00:46:18   so goes the upshift segment.

00:46:20   - Yep, Mark Gurman at Bloomberg first reported on Tuesday

00:46:25   that Apple has decided to cancel its plans to build a car,

00:46:29   also known as Project Titan.

00:46:31   This project shifted a lot throughout the 10 years

00:46:33   that it was in development from full self-driving

00:46:36   to partial self-driving and everything in between.

00:46:38   Mark Gurman says that almost 2000 people

00:46:41   were working on the project up until recently.

00:46:44   It had been headed most recently by Kevin Lynch,

00:46:46   who along with COO, Jeff Williams made the call

00:46:49   to stop their efforts.

00:46:51   Many of the employees that are in this team,

00:46:53   which is known as the Special Projects Group,

00:46:55   will now have their efforts turned towards AI work

00:46:58   and will join John G and Andrea's team.

00:47:01   What do you think about this?

00:47:04   - Well, so I wrote a lot of words about this on Friday.

00:47:15   I am not one of those people who's like,

00:47:19   I'm glad that they killed this project

00:47:20   'cause I never thought it was a good idea, right?

00:47:22   Like breaking news,

00:47:25   your opinions were validated a decade later.

00:47:28   I feel pretty strongly like there was a moment

00:47:34   like 10 years ago when this apparently all started,

00:47:37   when if you think back to that,

00:47:39   like who was even making electric cars then?

00:47:41   It was Tesla and they really only had the one model

00:47:45   that they were shipping to consumers,

00:47:48   which was the Model S, very expensive one.

00:47:52   But then they were talking about self-driving and all that.

00:47:54   There was a moment, I think, where Apple could have said,

00:47:57   we see how the computer technology

00:48:02   is gonna eat the car industry.

00:48:04   And we know computer technology.

00:48:07   And we're not worried about the details

00:48:08   of like a drive train or whatever,

00:48:10   like we'll buy our license or whatever.

00:48:12   It's not that big a deal,

00:48:13   but like what's more likely that the car industry

00:48:17   is gonna understand hardware and software for computers

00:48:20   and sensors and batteries and all those things,

00:48:23   or that we who understand all those things

00:48:26   can come into the car market.

00:48:28   The idea that cars and computers are converging

00:48:30   in the late 2020s, let's say,

00:48:33   and that Apple had just as much of a chance

00:48:36   to get there as GM did, if not more, right?

00:48:39   I think that was the argument.

00:48:42   As far as I kind of considered it,

00:48:45   what was there's a place here

00:48:48   where the car makers are asleep

00:48:51   and Tesla is the only one playing this game

00:48:54   and we could play this game

00:48:55   and we have more resources than Tesla.

00:48:57   And we could eat the lunch of the auto industry

00:49:01   and even maybe get to the point

00:49:03   where we have technology that's so advanced

00:49:04   that they're gonna either come to us begging

00:49:06   or we're gonna be able to leverage their expertise

00:49:12   in the car part of it, but at our terms.

00:49:16   I think that there is a really strong case to be made

00:49:18   at the beginning that computer cars essentially

00:49:22   are gonna be a thing and why not Apple?

00:49:25   And if you're a company that has all the money

00:49:28   and is worried about where your future revenue growth

00:49:30   is gonna come from, that is worth placing a bet.

00:49:35   Now, keep in mind, I also wanna say,

00:49:37   'cause by all accounts, this is like a 10-year-old project.

00:49:40   That's an era, they hadn't even 10 years ago,

00:49:43   they hadn't even done a bigger iPhone yet, right?

00:49:47   They hadn't even done the iPhone 6 Plus yet.

00:49:50   So they weren't really talking

00:49:53   about their services business yet.

00:49:55   The Apple Watch hadn't come out yet.

00:49:58   It came out like 10 years ago or nine years ago.

00:50:02   It was announced a little less than 10 years ago.

00:50:05   So it was a long time ago,

00:50:08   but like if you're looking at the future

00:50:10   and your growth as a company

00:50:11   and knowing that Wall Street will demand infinite growth,

00:50:14   placing a bet with all of your cash that you have on hand,

00:50:18   and they had a lot back then, it's not a bad idea.

00:50:21   So I think that there was something there at that time

00:50:25   for a product, but it feels to me like what happened

00:50:29   is at some point, and maybe it was there at the inception

00:50:31   or maybe it was shortly thereafter,

00:50:34   there ended up being a group of people inside Apple

00:50:37   who really believed that the only way that NAPLCAR made sense

00:50:41   was that if it was fully autonomous,

00:50:44   that it was that they were on the edge

00:50:45   perhaps of a breakthrough, somebody in the industry,

00:50:48   like Elon Musk always talked about

00:50:49   that it was right around the corner.

00:50:50   That has proven to not be true at all

00:50:52   and that it's still around the corner for him

00:50:55   and it may always be around the corner.

00:50:57   But we ended up doing, we did an episode called,

00:51:02   what is it, "Hey, car, stop."

00:51:04   Yeah, something like that.

00:51:05   Which I looked at it and made me laugh.

00:51:07   That was a funny, like using Siri to tell your car to stop.

00:51:10   About the moment when Mark Gurman came out much later,

00:51:13   he came out with a report that they were still

00:51:15   hanging onto this idea, which was they designed a car

00:51:18   that wasn't like a car.

00:51:19   It was like a little mobile salon that you sat in

00:51:22   and it didn't have a steering wheel and they wanted it.

00:51:26   And this was apparently Johnny Ive's vision was they,

00:51:30   let's just make a car that has no steering wheel.

00:51:32   It's super minimal, sounds like Johnny Ive.

00:51:35   And to me, this is the moment where it got off track

00:51:38   because the, I admire the ambition,

00:51:43   but I would also say the arrogance of thinking

00:51:45   we're gonna be able to make a car

00:51:47   that never needs to be driven.

00:51:48   Like we're gonna solve it so completely

00:51:51   that we can throw out the idea of a car.

00:51:53   And then probably if Apple's gonna make a car,

00:51:56   it must be the perfect magical car

00:51:58   that drives itself everywhere.

00:52:00   And I don't know, I mean, you gotta really believe in that

00:52:04   because for me, it felt obvious that you always

00:52:08   are gonna need to be able to drive your car, right?

00:52:10   Not all scenarios are going to be handled

00:52:12   by the magic computer.

00:52:14   I think the moment that the group of people who decided,

00:52:18   no, the Apple car project is this aspirational project

00:52:21   about something that will absolutely be self-driving

00:52:23   all the time and we're gonna just bet on that.

00:52:27   And in their diagram, there's just a big cloud

00:52:29   with a question mark there because nobody had done it

00:52:32   or has done it.

00:52:33   And worth a try, right?

00:52:35   Could be revolutionary.

00:52:36   But the way that Tesla always approached it was,

00:52:39   we're gonna make a car and yeah, we're confident

00:52:42   that it'll be self-driving next year.

00:52:43   And they keep saying that, but like in the meantime,

00:52:46   we made a car that's like a computer car

00:52:48   and it's got driver assist features.

00:52:50   And it's got all these nice things about it

00:52:52   and it's electric.

00:52:54   And the other guys are still like a decade behind.

00:52:56   So they could have done that.

00:52:58   And then like a vision pro, and this is the thing,

00:53:02   like the vision pro, it feels very much like

00:53:05   there's a contingent inside Apple that is like,

00:53:07   don't ship it until it's perfect.

00:53:08   And so for the vision pro was like,

00:53:11   there was that story about how there's a contingent

00:53:13   inside of Apple of designers, especially that were like,

00:53:16   no, no, no, if you can't make AR glasses, just don't ship it.

00:53:20   And Apple's like, Apple executives were like,

00:53:22   no, no, we're gonna ship vision pro.

00:53:25   And then iterate, you ship it and then you iterate.

00:53:27   It seems like with a car at some point,

00:53:30   the argument to not ship something

00:53:32   that is not the magical perfect future was one.

00:53:37   And so they changed into this entire project contingent

00:53:42   on full self-driving all the time, no steering wheel,

00:53:45   which I mean, I just took one look at that report

00:53:49   and I was like, well, that's literally never gonna happen.

00:53:51   That was the moment where I went from,

00:53:52   I'm open-minded about this.

00:53:54   There's an interesting potential here to what are they doing?

00:53:57   And many years had passed since then.

00:53:59   And so when they finally, a couple of years ago,

00:54:00   apparently refactored this whole thing and said, no,

00:54:02   why don't we try to ship something that's like a Tesla?

00:54:05   Like the moment had passed, like there was a moment,

00:54:09   like 2014, you could have made something by 2019, 2020

00:54:14   that would have been in the market

00:54:15   and would have sort of like defined

00:54:17   what a modern computery car was

00:54:19   and maybe had some wizzy Apple features

00:54:20   that people have been like, oh, Apple really got this,

00:54:23   watch out Tesla, watch out other new people,

00:54:25   Apple really figured it out.

00:54:27   But instead they put their money on a breakthrough

00:54:29   that never came.

00:54:30   And by the time that they decided to refactor back

00:54:32   to the other thing, it was too late.

00:54:34   And I think that fundamentally

00:54:36   that is not how you should design a product.

00:54:38   You should design a product based on practicality

00:54:42   and then work towards your breakthrough.

00:54:44   And that's not what they did.

00:54:45   And so I think there was a root of a good idea 10 years ago.

00:54:50   And by the time that they got to the realization

00:54:53   they weren't gonna ship their unrealistic idea,

00:54:56   it was too late 'cause like today,

00:54:57   I don't feel like if Apple shipped a Tesla like car

00:55:00   and I think this is the decision they made

00:55:02   that it would make a difference.

00:55:03   Like it's too late.

00:55:04   The car makers have all gotten

00:55:07   into the computer car thing now.

00:55:09   Computer cars, even non-electric cars are computer cars now

00:55:12   and then there are more electric cars too.

00:55:13   So like the moment has passed.

00:55:16   So that's my thought about it is I do not agree

00:55:21   that Apple should never have investigated this.

00:55:24   I also don't believe when people are like,

00:55:26   oh, think of the kinds of products Apple makes.

00:55:28   This is so different.

00:55:29   I've seen enough of Apple shifting gears.

00:55:32   Like Apple can do what they want.

00:55:33   Apple retail was something everybody said couldn't happen.

00:55:37   'Cause can you imagine Apple having like a retail store

00:55:40   with employees all over the world and a bunch of different,

00:55:43   and they're like hundreds of stores.

00:55:44   I'm like, well, it was important to them

00:55:46   and they made it happen.

00:55:47   Like I think if a car had been important to them,

00:55:51   they would have made it happen

00:55:52   and it would not have been unreasonable

00:55:53   to make a computer car that was not made of magic,

00:55:57   but that was actually realistic and then iterate from there.

00:55:59   But for whatever reason in the mid 2010s,

00:56:02   they listened to the people who said,

00:56:05   let's put all our chips down on full autonomy

00:56:08   and it's not a thing that they could do.

00:56:11   - Yeah, something you're saying a minute ago

00:56:13   seemed like there's like the thing,

00:56:18   the ideology that Apple has didn't align with reality,

00:56:22   which is like, they like to try and have their thing, right?

00:56:26   Like we've done, you know, this product market exists,

00:56:29   but we've done our thing that makes our version better.

00:56:34   And like realistically, a car is so big and complicated

00:56:38   that if they were gonna try and wait for their thing,

00:56:41   which was maybe for self-driving,

00:56:43   like that was a bad place to start, like in hindsight,

00:56:47   where really what they should have tried to do

00:56:49   was make the best version they could of the current thing,

00:56:53   that as you say, like impresses on,

00:56:55   like it has this feature and that feature and this feature

00:56:57   and it's nice and it looks good and like it has lots

00:57:00   of little bits rather than they're like,

00:57:03   we've transformed how cars work, here it is,

00:57:06   because just getting to the point

00:57:08   where they had a good enough version of the current thing

00:57:12   was a big job.

00:57:14   And one of the things that you question in your piece,

00:57:17   which again, I think like in hindsight,

00:57:18   it was probably the way to go,

00:57:19   is why didn't they just buy a car company?

00:57:22   Like if they would have bought a car company,

00:57:24   they would have been able to leapfrog all the way

00:57:26   to we have a car, now we can put our stuff on top.

00:57:31   - Yeah, they, I think a lot of that

00:57:34   is not invented here syndrome, right?

00:57:36   Which is just like, why would we buy a car company?

00:57:38   We're Apple, we can just do it.

00:57:40   Which in hindsight, yeah,

00:57:42   they absolutely could have done that.

00:57:44   There weren't very many car companies like right

00:57:46   at the start, there was really just Tesla.

00:57:49   Apple could have bought Tesla, but-

00:57:50   - Over that 10 year span.

00:57:52   (laughs)

00:57:53   - But over that 10 year span, yes.

00:57:55   I think, and I think the problem was the timing, right?

00:57:57   By the time that they're doing Rivian and Lucid

00:58:00   and all of these other like electric car startups,

00:58:05   some of them started up by car companies,

00:58:07   but some of them were on the outside.

00:58:09   - Or even, like a Kia or what,

00:58:14   they could have bought a company of that size

00:58:15   if they wanted to.

00:58:17   - I mean, Apple could have done a strategic investment

00:58:19   with a traditional big car company,

00:58:21   but I think that one of the electric car startups

00:58:22   would have been the thing to do.

00:58:23   But at that point, not only did they have

00:58:25   the not invented here syndrome,

00:58:26   but they were deep in the,

00:58:28   they were very high on their own supply

00:58:31   of magical self-driving car.

00:58:33   And I think that's, look, I'll just come out and say it.

00:58:36   Especially since Trip Mickel, my favorite author,

00:58:39   co-byline the story about this in the New York Times.

00:58:41   And Trip, if you don't remember,

00:58:43   wrote that book that Mike liked and that I didn't like,

00:58:46   that he had lots of designer sources.

00:58:48   And it was like Apple lost the soul of its company

00:58:50   when it stopped listening to its designers.

00:58:52   And I would argue that not only were the,

00:58:53   according to reports, the designers behind

00:58:55   the ridiculous argument to not ship the Vision Pro

00:58:57   and instead just wait for the future

00:58:59   when magic AR glasses would happen,

00:59:01   I think that the way that I read the reports

00:59:04   about this story is that it was that same group of people

00:59:06   led by Johnny Ive who said, "No, no, no,

00:59:08   "let's not make a regular car.

00:59:10   "Let's make an impossible car

00:59:11   "that will only work with perfect technology,

00:59:13   "because we have faith that the perfect technology

00:59:15   "will come along," and they destroyed the project.

00:59:17   At that point, I think the project was never gonna work.

00:59:20   And I guess the answer is, well, yeah,

00:59:23   but what if there was a breakthrough?

00:59:24   And I would say it's irresponsible to design a product

00:59:26   for a breakthrough that hasn't happened yet.

00:59:29   You can't, it's science fiction.

00:59:31   You're making sketches for a movie.

00:59:34   You're designing props at that point.

00:59:35   You have to build a real product.

00:59:37   This is a fundamental, dare I say it,

00:59:40   Steve Jobs kind of thing of a product,

00:59:42   you gotta build a real product.

00:59:43   What can we build today?

00:59:45   Not if we invent a thing that's never been invented before,

00:59:50   what product would we make?

00:59:53   And I think that that attitude, whoever it came from,

00:59:57   but like I said, my strong sense,

01:00:00   at least from some of the reports,

01:00:01   is that it was a lot of people in the design group,

01:00:03   especially, who wanted to design a magic car,

01:00:07   and it destroyed the product,

01:00:08   'cause that's not how you make that product.

01:00:09   So I think by the time they could have said,

01:00:11   why don't we just buy Lucid or we'll buy Rivian

01:00:15   in the early days of that company?

01:00:18   I think they were too far down the road of like,

01:00:21   well, yeah, but we hired all our own people

01:00:23   and we're working on this project

01:00:24   and we're over here doing that.

01:00:26   But yeah, in hindsight,

01:00:27   they would have been much better off

01:00:28   doing something like that.

01:00:29   As it is, I think it's okay.

01:00:30   I think that the moment has passed.

01:00:31   I think that I honestly don't think Apple has much

01:00:34   to contribute to the car industry now.

01:00:37   Maybe that new car play,

01:00:40   again, it would be nice to see more uptake

01:00:42   because that would be a nicer thing.

01:00:43   - That's what they have to contribute.

01:00:45   That is Apple's genuine contribution.

01:00:48   Apple does not need to make an actual car.

01:00:52   They should try the best they can

01:00:54   to make operating systems for cars.

01:00:56   That is their best contribution

01:00:59   to people driving in their automobiles.

01:01:02   I think that is the best thing.

01:01:04   Kind of wrapping this back around

01:01:05   to start again a little bit,

01:01:07   'cause I kind of threw us off track with the buying part.

01:01:10   Me personally, I'm actually like,

01:01:13   I'm hearing a lot of people saying

01:01:14   like they were stupid to ever try this,

01:01:16   they spent all this money,

01:01:17   they spent all this time.

01:01:18   From my perspective, it's just like,

01:01:20   I mean, they have all the money in the world, right?

01:01:22   Like, I'm happy that they took the time

01:01:27   because I agree that it was a good thing

01:01:28   for them to start looking at, right?

01:01:30   At the time that they started looking at it,

01:01:32   this is an interesting thought.

01:01:34   Let's look at this, right?

01:01:35   And they started looking at it.

01:01:37   The fact that they spent 10 years and billions of dollars,

01:01:40   like for me, I can kind of like,

01:01:42   for them, so what, right?

01:01:44   Like they have the money to spend on something like this.

01:01:48   They should investigate everything they possibly can.

01:01:51   This unfortunately was inherently just an expensive,

01:01:53   one of these things to try and look at.

01:01:56   But then they decided,

01:01:58   they made the decision that that didn't matter,

01:02:01   that they were happy to just cut their losses.

01:02:04   And I think that that is a positive.

01:02:07   - I agree, it should have happened a long time ago,

01:02:10   but I do appreciate the discipline

01:02:12   that finally was applied.

01:02:14   And it sounds like the way it worked

01:02:16   is that somebody like Tim Cook said,

01:02:18   I need a go or no go on the car.

01:02:21   And that's when they refactored is,

01:02:22   well, what could we ship

01:02:23   instead of what do we dream about shipping?

01:02:26   And then they looked at it

01:02:27   and I think made the right decision,

01:02:28   which is we don't have anything to offer here,

01:02:30   which is a huge thing from a corporate ego perspective

01:02:32   to say it's not worth it for us to go down this route.

01:02:36   But I think that that is where they ended up.

01:02:39   But I, so I think they should have killed it sooner.

01:02:43   I think that they should not have listened to the people

01:02:44   who said let's design something for technology

01:02:46   that doesn't exist.

01:02:47   I think that was an enormous mistake early on.

01:02:50   I wanted to mention,

01:02:50   'cause you and I talked about this in the early days,

01:02:52   especially of upgrade a lot,

01:02:55   which is this is the period,

01:02:57   so Steve Jobs has died.

01:02:58   Tim Cook is new to the job.

01:03:02   The perception is, oh no, he's not Steve Jobs,

01:03:05   which he's absolutely not.

01:03:07   This is an era where because Steve is gone

01:03:11   and Tim is new and Johnny Ive is still there

01:03:14   and Johnny Ive is not super,

01:03:17   he's burning out or if not burned out, he's bored.

01:03:22   He, they're keeping him around.

01:03:24   And I remember saying this back in the time,

01:03:27   like this is the deal is Johnny will pay you anything

01:03:30   and you could do whatever you want to stay

01:03:31   because Wall Street is really nervous

01:03:33   about a huge brain drain at Apple

01:03:35   and that there's nobody who's designing these products.

01:03:37   And so they kept Johnny around,

01:03:39   I think way longer than he was necessary

01:03:42   and way longer than he was contributing

01:03:45   necessary from a product design perspective.

01:03:49   He was necessary for like an optics perspective,

01:03:51   but I think it was a sham.

01:03:52   Anyway, so this product really,

01:03:56   even at the time, didn't we hear

01:03:59   like Johnny really is interested in cars.

01:04:01   And so when he was told he could kind of like design

01:04:03   a future car, he perked up,

01:04:04   like it feels a little bit like that too,

01:04:06   that part of the original sin here.

01:04:08   - Not dissimilar to some of the watch stuff, right?

01:04:11   Just like you like watches or that you make a bald watch.

01:04:12   - He likes watches, he likes cars.

01:04:14   He's a rich Englishman.

01:04:16   Let's give him things that he can appreciate.

01:04:19   So I think that was probably part of it too

01:04:22   in terms of internal politics.

01:04:23   I don't know, but that's just my guess

01:04:25   based on the reports is that that was some of it.

01:04:27   - But also like from what you were saying

01:04:29   a minute ago as well, like Tim was new

01:04:34   and it was pressure on him.

01:04:36   And so I expect he was just much more like,

01:04:39   well, I've got to do something.

01:04:41   So like, I'll green light this and this and this and this,

01:04:44   and we'll see what works.

01:04:46   And I think what we've ended up with--

01:04:47   - Let Johnny do what he wants.

01:04:48   - Is a watch and a VR headset.

01:04:50   These are the projects that probably these three

01:04:54   were all started not within two different time period

01:04:58   to each other, probably even a few years.

01:05:00   - I think that's true.

01:05:01   And I mean, to be clear,

01:05:03   I think we can't afford to lose this person.

01:05:07   So let's pay them a lot of money

01:05:08   and let them do whatever they want.

01:05:09   While not great for your organization as a whole,

01:05:13   I totally understand why that decision might make sense

01:05:16   in the moment. - For that point in time.

01:05:17   - Exactly, exactly.

01:05:19   And then you have to unwind it.

01:05:21   And it does have the danger of something like that

01:05:23   is that it distorts things where your organization

01:05:26   makes decisions it would not normally have made

01:05:28   because you're trying to appease the person

01:05:30   who you're keeping around for other reasons.

01:05:32   And I will say the salon car

01:05:36   and the solid gold Apple watch (laughs)

01:05:40   are examples, I think, of distortion happening

01:05:44   because Johnny Ive was unkillable

01:05:47   and they just literally had to keep him around.

01:05:51   - But the solid gold Apple watch

01:05:52   was part of the Apple watch,

01:05:54   which has been a big success.

01:05:56   Like it took time.

01:05:57   - Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:05:58   But that feels, that always felt like a little like,

01:06:00   why did they do that?

01:06:01   And I was like, well, I think Johnny wanted to work

01:06:04   with those materials.

01:06:05   And again, I don't think it was a complete wasteland,

01:06:07   but I think that the reason that a project like this

01:06:10   exists in part is probably to make somebody like Johnny Ive

01:06:13   excited about something when you're trying to keep him.

01:06:15   And then it builds up a momentum

01:06:17   and you've hired all these people

01:06:19   and you think it's always...

01:06:20   Just fundamentally, I keep coming back to the fact

01:06:23   if as the report suggests,

01:06:25   they designed this without a steering wheel,

01:06:27   they are counting on technology to be invented

01:06:30   that hasn't been invented yet.

01:06:32   And that is super dangerous,

01:06:35   which doesn't mean you don't do it for a while,

01:06:38   but I would argue that the right way,

01:06:39   the Apple-y way to do it would be to build,

01:06:42   okay, we're gonna do cars

01:06:44   and we wanna get to full self-driving.

01:06:45   Well, where do we start?

01:06:46   Well, let's ship a car.

01:06:47   And how do we do that?

01:06:49   And then you ship a car.

01:06:50   And instead at some point they're like, no, no, no,

01:06:51   we're gonna just design it so that we have to wait

01:06:55   for that feature to come available.

01:06:57   And that just seems like a mistake.

01:06:58   Work on that feature, put a lot of R&D into that feature,

01:07:02   but start shipping products

01:07:03   because I feel very strongly like with the Vision Pro,

01:07:06   once it's out there, you learn and you grow

01:07:09   and you can still be hanging your hopes

01:07:10   on full self-driving,

01:07:11   but you gotta ship a product and learn and iterate.

01:07:15   And they didn't seem to want to do that.

01:07:18   I've heard a lot of people talk about spinoff tech.

01:07:21   It'll never be worth the money they put in.

01:07:22   Whatever spinoff tech they come out of this

01:07:24   will never be worth the money they put into it,

01:07:25   but there will be spinoff.

01:07:27   - AI and that would be great.

01:07:29   - Yeah, computer vision that has value, right?

01:07:31   There's a lot of things where you're taking input

01:07:32   from cameras and then trying to process it.

01:07:34   A lot of that is using machine learning stuff.

01:07:36   Like they will pick over the body for parts, right?

01:07:41   But they're not gonna be able to use

01:07:42   all the parts of the Buffalo.

01:07:44   There's gonna be a bunch of stuff left behind.

01:07:46   It's just like not, right?

01:07:48   It's never, you're just making,

01:07:50   you're making what you can out of the issue.

01:07:53   And yeah, there may be some great breakthrough in there.

01:07:56   - You didn't need to build a car chassis

01:07:59   to have someone come up with better LIDAR technology, right?

01:08:03   Like that was not needed.

01:08:05   - Exactly, and it's not worth $10 billion.

01:08:07   - Yeah, it's what you did.

01:08:08   And as well, like there are obviously good

01:08:10   kind of parallels to the Vision Pro in all of this.

01:08:17   Like part of it is that they didn't abandon the Vision Pro.

01:08:21   So I think that it says something about their commitment.

01:08:24   These are products that maybe were going on at the same time

01:08:26   took a lot of money, took a lot of effort.

01:08:28   But then also going back to what you're saying, right?

01:08:31   Like we all know what the Vision Pro is.

01:08:34   It is the first step towards Apple glasses.

01:08:37   And they think maybe they can only get to glasses

01:08:40   by having this, but it requires starting somewhere.

01:08:45   And they started somewhere with the Vision Pro in public.

01:08:51   What can we actually make and ship?

01:08:53   And they've made that and they're moving forward with that.

01:08:56   And it could maybe one day lead us to something else.

01:08:59   - Yeah, at some point, and I'm not advocating

01:09:01   for shipping a product that's not viable,

01:09:03   but at some point you do need to,

01:09:04   I think it clarifies the mind

01:09:06   to work on a product that's shippable.

01:09:08   And I come back to, again, the moment of saying,

01:09:13   we're gonna invest a lot of money creating something

01:09:16   that requires a breakthrough

01:09:18   that we haven't broken through on.

01:09:20   I think it was a bad idea.

01:09:22   And that's why I was so offended

01:09:23   when I read that Mark Gurman report fairly late in the game,

01:09:25   2019, something like that,

01:09:27   saying they were still designing a car

01:09:29   without a steering wheel.

01:09:30   And it was like, what are you doing?

01:09:32   Because if Elon Musk had said that,

01:09:35   Tesla would have just gone out of business, right?

01:09:38   And this is a guy who was convinced or at least said,

01:09:41   I don't know if he was actually convinced,

01:09:42   but keeps saying full self-driving

01:09:45   is right around the corner.

01:09:46   But he shipped cars with steering wheels,

01:09:49   sometimes bad steering wheels, but steering wheels,

01:09:52   because he also wanted to sell cars and make money,

01:09:57   no matter whatever his confidence was

01:09:59   on full self-driving software.

01:10:01   So I don't know, it was,

01:10:04   I don't think that it was a mistake from the beginning.

01:10:07   I think it got completely off track.

01:10:10   I think they should have killed it way sooner,

01:10:12   given that I'm glad that they killed it now,

01:10:15   because, and I'm glad that they apparently went

01:10:18   through the process of looking at everything

01:10:20   that they'd done and saying, can we ship something?

01:10:22   No, then let's kill it.

01:10:24   I think that that was the right thing to do.

01:10:25   I just think that they should have done it a lot sooner.

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01:12:50   It is time for Ask Upgrade Questions

01:12:55   to finish out today's show.

01:12:57   And Adam starts with a month in,

01:13:00   how much are you using Vision Pro on an average day?

01:13:03   - I don't, I hate these questions.

01:13:08   I don't have an average day.

01:13:09   I don't have an average day.

01:13:10   - Okay.

01:13:11   - I don't have an average day.

01:13:12   Like I record part of a podcast.

01:13:14   - Would you like me to cut this question?

01:13:16   - I write part of an article.

01:13:18   No, I think it's fine.

01:13:19   I just, I don't have an average day.

01:13:23   I will give you an example of a day,

01:13:25   which is on Friday, I was trying to write a column

01:13:29   that was my Apple car column.

01:13:31   And I was struggling with focus and I drank some tea

01:13:36   and I sat down at the computer in the back bedroom.

01:13:39   And I just couldn't, I was like trying to get going

01:13:44   and I was doing like all the avoidance things

01:13:47   of like, I'm just not ready to write this yet.

01:13:49   And then I sat down on the couch with a Bluetooth keyboard

01:13:51   and the Vision Pro and brought up Runestone

01:13:54   and wrote the whole article.

01:13:56   So as an example of a way that I'm using Vision Pro

01:14:00   on a day to do a task, I also watched half of,

01:14:05   I ran out of time, half of Dune part one in 3D

01:14:09   on the Vision Pro because that looked awesome.

01:14:12   And I wanted to rewatch it before I saw Dune part two,

01:14:15   which I saw this weekend and is excellent,

01:14:18   but I didn't get to watch all of Dune part one,

01:14:20   but that was a beautiful thing.

01:14:22   And Lauren was at work.

01:14:23   And so that was a thing I could do that didn't,

01:14:26   that wasn't closing her out.

01:14:28   So I don't have a number of like average,

01:14:31   but I can tell you, I do some writing in it.

01:14:36   I do some sort of, as Mike said, last time noodling around

01:14:39   of like, I'm checking on this and I'm checking on that

01:14:41   to try and, and then I'm also using it for things

01:14:44   that are not normal use, which is like trying apps

01:14:47   that come out and seeing what they're like

01:14:49   and seeing how they're used.

01:14:50   So have I found like a routine?

01:14:52   I haven't.

01:14:53   - Maybe a better way to ask this question is like,

01:14:55   are you finding yourself using it on a daily basis

01:15:00   or somewhat daily basis?

01:15:02   And it sounds like the answer is mostly yes.

01:15:05   - Yeah, it's certainly not every day,

01:15:08   but many days.

01:15:13   And it, again, depending on what I'm trying to do

01:15:17   and trying to find the places where it fits in my life

01:15:21   and the places where it doesn't.

01:15:22   And the two places now that I found it is viable

01:15:26   are another place that's an alternate way

01:15:31   to get my brain out of its, you know,

01:15:34   whatever space it's in for, and focus for writing.

01:15:37   Because as many, you can put a million windows around you,

01:15:40   but you can also just put one window

01:15:42   and put an environment up or even not have an environment up

01:15:45   and just have the one window and focus on it.

01:15:46   And it's, I find that pretty useful.

01:15:49   What about you?

01:15:50   - Yeah, I would say like, I keep my vision pro at the studio

01:15:54   so I only use it on days when I'm here.

01:15:56   So just on work days.

01:15:58   And I find time to use it every day as part of my work day.

01:16:03   And it's very easy for me to do that

01:16:05   because of the idea of it's noodling around time.

01:16:07   And like, it's the computer that at the moment

01:16:10   I am enjoying the most of like.

01:16:12   - For the noodling.

01:16:13   - Because I have a list of things that I want to use.

01:16:16   Like, it's like, you know, like, oh, there's this new app.

01:16:18   Like, so that's part of noodling.

01:16:20   But also is just the kind of like,

01:16:22   I don't have a fixed piece of work

01:16:24   that I'm gonna do right now.

01:16:25   So I'm just gonna be bouncing around

01:16:27   from thing to thing for a little bit.

01:16:28   And that's great.

01:16:29   But also it is just like, I wanna just hang out for a bit.

01:16:33   It's perfect for that.

01:16:34   And it's like comfortable to use.

01:16:35   So at the moment I am very easily finding time

01:16:39   to use it every day.

01:16:40   I don't feel like I'm forcing myself to use it in that way.

01:16:44   I will give some real time follow up from Zach Hall

01:16:48   at 9to5Mac who has confirmed by talking to Apple

01:16:52   that Apple will indeed be adding

01:16:55   the second external monitor with lid closed feature

01:16:59   to the 14 inch MacBook Pro with M3 in a future software

01:17:03   update.

01:17:04   - So it is a software/firmware issue.

01:17:07   Not a like, this is the way we made the hardware

01:17:12   for the MacBook Air different.

01:17:13   It's good.

01:17:15   - It feels more like it is that they can update

01:17:17   the firmware with software, right?

01:17:18   Okay, I feel like it's probably what's happening.

01:17:20   As you say, it wasn't like, oh,

01:17:22   this has a second display controller

01:17:24   and the system on a chip or whatever.

01:17:25   - I would have asked Apple,

01:17:28   but I was doing a podcast.

01:17:29   - Indeed.

01:17:31   - Instead, but yeah.

01:17:32   Yep.

01:17:33   - Chris asks, when the time comes for Apple

01:17:35   to update their Mac accessories,

01:17:37   do you think they keep the Magic Mouse around?

01:17:41   - Yes.

01:17:42   - Yeah, you think so?

01:17:43   - I think so.

01:17:44   I think people use mice.

01:17:46   I don't, but people do.

01:17:47   And I think Apple is committed.

01:17:51   I mean, I'm sure they see the numbers,

01:17:53   but like I'm sure people buy an iMac

01:17:55   and they get it with a mouse, right?

01:17:57   I have a hard time envisioning them not offering a mouse.

01:18:01   I really do.

01:18:01   I get the, the argument is lots of people make mice

01:18:04   and that's true, but like, I don't know.

01:18:07   I think Apple will keep making one

01:18:08   because some people want it.

01:18:10   - I could see a world in which they're like,

01:18:15   you can use a mouse, we just don't make one.

01:18:18   Like I can see that world.

01:18:19   And the reason is this,

01:18:20   like some of the decisions they've made recently,

01:18:23   like Vision Pro, you can't use a mouse,

01:18:26   have to use a trackpad, like mice just don't work.

01:18:28   Stuff like that is like, they're very trackpad focused.

01:18:33   - Didn't I see that in the new beta,

01:18:35   the developer beta, you can use a mouse?

01:18:36   - Oh, really?

01:18:37   They've added that?

01:18:38   I don't know.

01:18:39   I don't use the developer beta.

01:18:40   So you can use mice now?

01:18:42   - I don't.

01:18:43   I thought I saw something about that, but I don't know.

01:18:45   I just, either way, I think they could drop the mouse.

01:18:53   I just don't think they will because people use mice.

01:18:56   So they'll offer it.

01:18:58   I doubt it will ever be innovated severely.

01:19:02   They might change where you plug it in,

01:19:04   but I don't think that that's what they're going for.

01:19:07   But I do think that they'll keep it around.

01:19:08   I just, I can see the scenario,

01:19:10   but I just don't think it'll happen.

01:19:12   - Well, we'll see.

01:19:14   What else have we got?

01:19:16   And Nathan- - Can that be a new segment?

01:19:18   Can that replace "Upshift" with like-

01:19:21   - Just mouse talk? - Mouse talk?

01:19:22   - Mouse talk?

01:19:23   The mouse is in the house or something like that?

01:19:27   - Mouse click?

01:19:28   - Mouse click?

01:19:29   It's the mouse time.

01:19:30   No, Nathan asks, "As CES, Belkin announced

01:19:33   Chi-2 magnetic battery packs."

01:19:35   I've also seen these from Anchor too.

01:19:37   "Do you think Apple's gonna rejoin the club

01:19:40   with their own USB-C MagSafe battery pack

01:19:43   or leave it to third-party accessory makers?"

01:19:47   - I have no opinion about this.

01:19:49   I've never used one of these products.

01:19:50   I don't particularly get them.

01:19:54   I'd say that since Apple, okay, here's my answer.

01:19:56   Since Apple's done it in the past,

01:19:57   when I thought, "Why would they do that?"

01:19:59   Then probably in the future, they'll also make them-

01:20:01   - I mean, it goes back to,

01:20:02   you just said that they make mice 'cause people use mice,

01:20:05   so they'll make mice.

01:20:06   So it'd be people use the battery packs

01:20:07   and have used Apple's cheap battery pack they had before

01:20:11   that they'd stopped making.

01:20:12   Will they make another one?

01:20:15   - It's not quite the same because if you buy an iMac,

01:20:17   you do need a pointing device to use it.

01:20:18   So they have to offer something to you

01:20:21   where a battery pack is optional.

01:20:22   But yeah, I feel like if they find that it's,

01:20:26   I mean, they did, I don't know.

01:20:28   I would say sure, why not?

01:20:30   Because they can make money at it, but it does seem,

01:20:32   I've always thought that that was kind of strange.

01:20:34   How about the upgrade mouse club or Mike's mouse club?

01:20:39   - Mike's, we need another M though.

01:20:43   Like Mike's mouse something.

01:20:47   - No, 'cause it's like the Mickey Mouse Club.

01:20:48   It's Mike's mouse club.

01:20:49   - Oh, Mikey's mouse club.

01:20:51   - Mikey's mouse club.

01:20:52   - Legally distinct, legally distinct Mikey's mouse club.

01:20:56   - All right.

01:20:56   - And finally, David asks, and he's asking to me here.

01:20:59   If I recall Mike, you are wearing the latest Apple watch

01:21:02   ultra two with the tap feature.

01:21:04   So like the double tap.

01:21:06   When wearing the vision pro, do you have any input clashes

01:21:09   as they're using the same pinch gesture for input?

01:21:11   So a couple of things here.

01:21:13   One, the scenario in which that would have to happen

01:21:16   would be rare, right, of like pinching twice,

01:21:19   because typically something has to be going on as well

01:21:22   on the Apple watch.

01:21:23   - And pretty forceful.

01:21:24   And forceful is not a thing on, right?

01:21:27   Because force is doing it in the watch.

01:21:28   - Yeah, they are nowhere near the same gestures.

01:21:31   - It's literally a camera that's looking to see

01:21:33   where your fingers are.

01:21:34   So they're very different gestures.

01:21:36   - But I also do, I wear my watch on my left wrist

01:21:39   and I operate vision pro mostly with my right hand.

01:21:42   I don't know why, it's just the one that I've chosen

01:21:44   probably because it's what I typically

01:21:46   will use my mouse with.

01:21:47   It's like my mouse or trackpad.

01:21:49   In Mikey's mouse corner, I use my mouse.

01:21:52   My mouse corner is on the right hand side.

01:21:55   But so I have never had this happen.

01:21:58   However, Apple in their wisdom have added a feature

01:22:02   that is gonna be in 17.4 to allow you to turn off

01:22:07   double tap when using the vision pro.

01:22:11   So that your watch will know when you're wearing

01:22:15   the vision pro and turn off the,

01:22:18   you can choose to turn off the double tap feature

01:22:21   when you're using it if it was something

01:22:23   that you were getting into trouble with.

01:22:25   But I would find it for me very difficult

01:22:30   to find the way in which that happens.

01:22:32   'Cause it is, while it is still the same finger and thumb,

01:22:36   it is a much different amount of force,

01:22:41   like the way you do it is very, very different.

01:22:45   But maybe you're just furiously clicking around

01:22:47   when you're noodling on the vision pro

01:22:49   and you set things off left, right and center.

01:22:52   If you would like to send us a question

01:22:55   for us to answer on a future episode,

01:22:57   please go to upgradefeedback.com.

01:23:00   It's where you can send in your ask upgrade questions,

01:23:02   just no talk questions or any follow up or feedback

01:23:05   you may have about the show.

01:23:07   If you wanna check out Jason's work, go to sixcolors.com.

01:23:10   I'm sure Jason will have some stuff to say

01:23:12   about these new Macs.

01:23:14   As soon as he's able to try them,

01:23:16   you'll be able to read from there, sixcolors.com.

01:23:18   And you can hear his podcast here on Relay FM

01:23:20   at the incomparable.com.

01:23:22   We also hear me too, I'm on many shows here at Relay FM.

01:23:25   You can check out my product work over at cortexbrand.com.

01:23:28   You can find us on Mastodon.

01:23:30   Jason is @jsnell on zeppelin.flights.

01:23:33   I am @imike, I am Y-K-E on mike.social.

01:23:37   You can find video clips of the show on our,

01:23:41   we're on Mastodon as upgradeatrelayfm.social.

01:23:43   Also on TikTok, Instagram and YouTube,

01:23:46   we are @upgraderelay.

01:23:48   You can also find, we've put on the YouTube channel now

01:23:50   a couple of segments of the show instead.

01:23:53   If you wanna watch a segment of the show

01:23:55   that maybe you enjoyed,

01:23:56   went to see what our faces looked like during that segment

01:23:59   rather than watching the full episode

01:24:00   in our continued experiments.

01:24:03   We're both on threads as well.

01:24:05   I'm @imike, Jason is @jsnell.

01:24:07   Thank you to our members who support us of Upgrade Plus

01:24:09   where you can get longer ad-free versions of the show

01:24:12   each and every week at getupgradeplus.com.

01:24:15   Thank you to our sponsors, Squarespace, ExpressVPN

01:24:18   and Fitbaud for helping make this episode happen.

01:24:21   But most of all, thank you for listening.

01:24:24   Until next time, say goodbye Jason Snell.

01:24:27   - Goodbye everybody.

01:24:27   (upbeat music)

01:24:30   (upbeat music)

01:24:33   [MUSIC PLAYING]