Upgrade

00:00:00 ◼   ► (music)

00:00:08 ◼   ► From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 502 for March 4th, 2024.

00:00:15 ◼   ► Today's show is brought to you by Fitbod, ExpressVPN, and Squarespace.

00:00:20 ◼   ► My name is Mike Hurley, and I'm joined by Jason Snow. Hi, Jason.

00:00:23 ◼   ► - Hi, Mike. We are marching forth today. - March the 4th be with you, Jason.

00:00:28 ◼   ► - Mm-hmm, and also with four. - With all four.

00:00:33 ◼   ► I have a Snow Talk question. It comes from John, and John wants to know,

00:00:37 ◼   ► "Jason, did you ever attend the Apple Expos in Europe when they were a thing?"

00:00:43 ◼   ► - Gonna be an easy answer, no. - Okay. What were they?

00:00:47 ◼   ► - We did, Apple did some events in Paris. - Yeah.

00:00:51 ◼   ► - We did send, I think we sent Phil Michaels to one of those.

00:00:55 ◼   ► We sent people to them occasionally, but basically they were like little European

00:00:59 ◼   ► trade shows, but that Apple was the driver of, not IDG, and they did them for a few

00:01:05 ◼   ► years, and then they stopped. But they made some minor announcements there.

00:01:10 ◼   ► No, we didn't, I never went. I've never been, I have never been to France.

00:01:17 ◼   ► I have been through France on a train, but a couple of times,

00:01:23 ◼   ► but I've never been to France. So, I have no, no is my answer.

00:01:28 ◼   ► - Probably the biggest thing announced there was Mac OS X public beta.

00:01:34 ◼   ► Look at the Wikipedia page. - Yeah.

00:01:36 ◼   ► - It's got iCloud and iSync in 2002, big deal. - Uh-huh.

00:01:40 ◼   ► - Big deal. If you would like to send in a question for us to open a future episode

00:01:46 ◼   ► of Upgrade, just like John did, go to upgradefeedback.com and send in a Snow

00:01:51 ◼   ► Talk of your own. I have some follow-up for you, Jason.

00:01:55 ◼   ► - Okay. - So, we've got a number of people

00:01:58 ◼   ► write in with various pieces of follow-up about the sports betting lines and odds

00:02:03 ◼   ► in the sports app. Ryan and Peter both wrote in to say that while they never

00:02:07 ◼   ► place bets, they're interested in the odds as a tool to help predict an outcome of a

00:02:11 ◼   ► game, which is good to know. Chris says, "If a person doesn't have a

00:02:16 ◼   ► particular interest in either team, maybe they don't know much about them,

00:02:19 ◼   ► but would want to know who the underdog is," which is also a good thing.

00:02:23 ◼   ► And Logan wrote in with something I thought was quite funny, saying,

00:02:25 ◼   ► "The data source for the Apple Sports app is too fast. I'm watching the Warriors

00:02:29 ◼   ► game live on YouTube TV, and I can find out if a team scores before they even

00:02:33 ◼   ► cross half court." - Yeah.

00:02:35 ◼   ► - Yeah. - It's true.

00:02:38 ◼   ► Streaming is often behind what you'd see on, like, more traditional TV,

00:02:41 ◼   ► and I found actually that the local feeds are further behind for whatever reason.

00:02:46 ◼   ► So, yes. And, you know, Eddy Cue is standing at courtside demanding immediacy,

00:02:51 ◼   ► and then you get -- do they have to put in a delay for, you know,

00:02:54 ◼   ► can you set your streaming delay so that you aren't spoiled by it?

00:02:57 ◼   ► I mean, probably if you're watching the game, you shouldn't need to look down

00:03:00 ◼   ► to see the score. - Or I feel like maybe push notifications

00:03:03 ◼   ► so you wouldn't want -- I don't know if -- I don't know if the sports app does them,

00:03:06 ◼   ► but you maybe wouldn't want that in some of these apps.

00:03:09 ◼   ► - Well, yeah, the TV app does, though, so you might see, like,

00:03:12 ◼   ► "It's a close game," and be like, "Uh..." - Is it?

00:03:14 ◼   ► - I actually had that happen during the Super Bowl where I was --

00:03:17 ◼   ► where it was very clear that the 49ers were going to give up that touchdown

00:03:21 ◼   ► to lose the Super Bowl, and I got condolences from a friend

00:03:26 ◼   ► before the final player was run. - Oh.

00:03:29 ◼   ► What service did you watch the Super Bowl on?

00:03:33 ◼   ► - On Fubo, on my local TV channel, CBS, which, like I said,

00:03:37 ◼   ► the local streams are further behind.

00:03:39 ◼   ► - We were talking about how we don't like Apple News because of the news sources.

00:03:43 ◼   ► Jeffrey, I'm of a top tip for anybody who wants to use Apple News to say,

00:03:47 ◼   ► if you go to Settings, News, and Restrict Stories in Today,

00:03:50 ◼   ► you can see just stories from the sources that you choose to follow

00:03:53 ◼   ► rather than the stuff that's recommended.

00:03:55 ◼   ► - So I turned this feature on. - Very good.

00:03:58 ◼   ► - And it makes Apple News really weird.

00:04:00 ◼   ► - Okay. - And there are still a lot of things

00:04:04 ◼   ► where you are seeing weird sources. - Uh-huh.

00:04:07 ◼   ► - But I will say, yeah, it does make it better if you basically say,

00:04:11 ◼   ► look, just don't show me literally anything I haven't said as a source.

00:04:15 ◼   ► - Uh-huh. - That, it makes it better.

00:04:18 ◼   ► So I appreciate it.

00:04:20 ◼   ► Again, I still don't feel like Apple News's judgment

00:04:24 ◼   ► about what I want to see.

00:04:26 ◼   ► It matches at all what I want to see.

00:04:28 ◼   ► So I think it's a product I would like to refrain from using,

00:04:31 ◼   ► but I will say thank you to Jeff

00:04:34 ◼   ► because it's a lot less terrible source-wise.

00:04:38 ◼   ► So yeah, that's a good feature.

00:04:40 ◼   ► - We were talking about the television app by Sandwich for VisionOS.

00:04:46 ◼   ► The version 1.1 is out now, which has YouTube support.

00:04:52 ◼   ► And they also put a couple more TVs in it.

00:04:54 ◼   ► So I was just watching a 5.12 video on a Macintosh TV

00:04:59 ◼   ► before we started recording today to get that full experience.

00:05:02 ◼   ► - Nice. - So you can now watch YouTube in it,

00:05:03 ◼   ► which is really good. That's a good addition to the app.

00:05:06 ◼   ► Very fun. - And the Mac TV.

00:05:08 ◼   ► - Yeah, the Macintosh TV. It's in there.

00:05:10 ◼   ► - Yeah. - And so on last week's episode,

00:05:13 ◼   ► we were also talking about the idea

00:05:15 ◼   ► of how a HomePod with a screen could work.

00:05:19 ◼   ► And I was saying that maybe it would be cool

00:05:21 ◼   ► if you could have some kind of eye-tracking

00:05:23 ◼   ► or hand-tracking gestures to use the interface.

00:05:26 ◼   ► Basically, as soon as we finished recording,

00:05:28 ◼   ► I was on Threads and I saw a post

00:05:31 ◼   ► from Swift student challenge developer Vedat of Vedat Apps.

00:05:35 ◼   ► They posted a video of their submission of their app

00:05:37 ◼   ► doing exactly this. So I think they're using it on a Mac.

00:05:42 ◼   ► No, it's on an iPad. It's on an iPad of Magic keyboard.

00:05:46 ◼   ► They're using hand tracking,

00:05:47 ◼   ► which I think is part of the accessibility stuff

00:05:50 ◼   ► to highlight UI. And it kind of looks similar to tvOS.

00:05:55 ◼   ► So I thought that was kind of funny.

00:05:56 ◼   ► Like the technology kind of exists.

00:05:58 ◼   ► It maybe could work as a way to use a device like this.

00:06:02 ◼   ► Would be pretty cool.

00:06:04 ◼   ► - Yeah. Good.

00:06:04 ◼   ► Thank you to Vedant for sending that in.

00:06:08 ◼   ► It's just, it's all things are possible.

00:06:11 ◼   ► - iOS 17.4 is due out today or this week,

00:06:17 ◼   ► like next couple of days.

00:06:19 ◼   ► So it will be interesting to see how the DMA stuff advances

00:06:22 ◼   ► over the coming days.

00:06:23 ◼   ► If we're going to get any more about it,

00:06:24 ◼   ► any more information.

00:06:26 ◼   ► Setapp has announced that it plans

00:06:28 ◼   ► to offer an alternative app marketplace in April.

00:06:32 ◼   ► They have said that it will showcase a carefully selected

00:06:35 ◼   ► assortment of apps,

00:06:36 ◼   ► including fan favorites from the Setapp catalog.

00:06:40 ◼   ► Developers are able to apply to be in their marketplace now.

00:06:43 ◼   ► I'm intrigued how that's going to work.

00:06:45 ◼   ► - The way that this is phrased is interesting.

00:06:46 ◼   ► Cause as we've said, if you are a developer of an app

00:06:50 ◼   ► and you want to be in an alternative marketplace,

00:06:55 ◼   ► you have to opt into the new terms for Europe.

00:06:59 ◼   ► So I was thinking about this,

00:07:02 ◼   ► it can't be a one-to-one for Setapp apps

00:07:05 ◼   ► in a Setapp marketplace,

00:07:06 ◼   ► because some of the apps that are in Setapp

00:07:09 ◼   ► are probably not going to want to be in,

00:07:13 ◼   ► aren't going to want to opt into the new terms, right?

00:07:16 ◼   ► So it's a selected assortment,

00:07:20 ◼   ► including some from the Setapp catalog.

00:07:22 ◼   ► Like it'll be interesting to see how they position

00:07:23 ◼   ► this whole thing, but that's going to be the challenge,

00:07:27 ◼   ► right?

00:07:27 ◼   ► Setapp as a collection and as a product with a subscription,

00:07:32 ◼   ► well, that's one thing,

00:07:33 ◼   ► but like as an alternative marketplace,

00:07:35 ◼   ► the only apps in there will be apps that choose to be a part

00:07:38 ◼   ► of the European alternate terms.

00:07:42 ◼   ► And we'll see how they feel about that.

00:07:44 ◼   ► - And also for Setapp as well,

00:07:48 ◼   ► like maybe they're going to want the apps

00:07:51 ◼   ► that they would be willing to pay the core technology fee

00:07:54 ◼   ► for, right?

00:07:56 ◼   ► Like there is an element of any app that a company

00:08:00 ◼   ► like this brings onto the marketplace.

00:08:03 ◼   ► They kind of maybe want it to make sense for them.

00:08:07 ◼   ► And you know, like there's gotta be some element there,

00:08:10 ◼   ► but I'll be interested to see how it works,

00:08:12 ◼   ► but we won't see it,

00:08:13 ◼   ► but we'll see other people talk about it, I guess,

00:08:17 ◼   ► because we won't be able to see them.

00:08:17 ◼   ► - Yes.

00:08:19 ◼   ► Yes, I look forward to hearing from Europeans

00:08:21 ◼   ► about how this goes.

00:08:22 ◼   ► - Yep.

00:08:23 ◼   ► - Today, the European commission has issued a 1.9 billion

00:08:27 ◼   ► Euro fine to Apple for quote abusive app store rules

00:08:31 ◼   ► to music streaming providers.

00:08:33 ◼   ► There are two--

00:08:33 ◼   ► - Today.

00:08:34 ◼   ► - Indeed.

00:08:35 ◼   ► - This is not the DMA, but it is today.

00:08:36 ◼   ► - It's very today.

00:08:38 ◼   ► I mean, I feel like it fits in here, right?

00:08:41 ◼   ► Like it's adjacent to the DMA.

00:08:43 ◼   ► So it's European legislation corner.

00:08:46 ◼   ► - Very nearby.

00:08:47 ◼   ► - So there's two press releases

00:08:50 ◼   ► I'm going to put in the show notes.

00:08:51 ◼   ► One is from the European commission.

00:08:52 ◼   ► One is from Apple.

00:08:53 ◼   ► I think I saw the Apple one first.

00:08:55 ◼   ► I don't know who published first,

00:08:56 ◼   ► but obviously Apple knew this was coming today.

00:08:58 ◼   ► I think we spoke about this last week or the week before

00:09:01 ◼   ► that there was a fine coming,

00:09:04 ◼   ► but it was much less expected than 1.9 billion.

00:09:07 ◼   ► So the European commission post says things like

00:09:10 ◼   ► the commission found that Apple applied restrictions

00:09:12 ◼   ► on app developers,

00:09:14 ◼   ► preventing them from informing iOS users about alternative

00:09:17 ◼   ► and cheaper music subscription services available outside

00:09:20 ◼   ► of the app, quote anti-steering provisions.

00:09:23 ◼   ► This is illegal under EU antitrust rules

00:09:26 ◼   ► and Apple's conduct, which lasted for almost 10 years,

00:09:29 ◼   ► may have led many iOS users to pay significantly higher

00:09:32 ◼   ► prices for music streaming subscriptions

00:09:34 ◼   ► because of the high commission fee imposed by Apple

00:09:37 ◼   ► on developers and passed on to consumers

00:09:40 ◼   ► in the form of higher subscription prices

00:09:42 ◼   ► for the same service on the Apple app store.

00:09:45 ◼   ► I will just say,

00:09:46 ◼   ► I will commend the European commission

00:09:48 ◼   ► for making a very readable press release.

00:09:51 ◼   ► Like when I opened it up, I was like,

00:09:53 ◼   ► this is going to be full of legal stuff,

00:09:54 ◼   ► but I actually found it to be very readable and clear,

00:09:57 ◼   ► which I appreciated.

00:09:58 ◼   ► Apple publish a post of their own saying things like quote,

00:10:02 ◼   ► "The decision was reached despite the commission's failure

00:10:04 ◼   ► to uncover any credible evidence of consumer harm

00:10:08 ◼   ► and ignores the realities of a market that is thriving,

00:10:11 ◼   ► competitive and growing fast.

00:10:14 ◼   ► Today, Spotify has a 56% share

00:10:16 ◼   ► of Europe's music streaming market,

00:10:18 ◼   ► more than double their closest competitors

00:10:21 ◼   ► and pays Apple nothing for the services

00:10:23 ◼   ► that have helped make them one of the most recognizable.

00:10:27 ◼   ► Spotify wants to bend the rules in their favor

00:10:29 ◼   ► by embedding subscription prices in their app

00:10:31 ◼   ► without using the app store's in-app purchase system.

00:10:36 ◼   ► They want to use Apple's tools and technologies,

00:10:39 ◼   ► distribute on the app store and benefit from the trust

00:10:42 ◼   ► we've built with users and to pay Apple nothing for it."

00:10:47 ◼   ► Apple's post is very big, long and dripping

00:10:50 ◼   ► with feelings.

00:10:52 ◼   ► - Scoring.

00:10:54 ◼   ► - Apple will appeal to this decision,

00:10:56 ◼   ► as you would assume.

00:10:58 ◼   ► Do I need to restate how I feel about this?

00:11:02 ◼   ► I think it's honestly wild to me

00:11:05 ◼   ► that Apple tries to pretend

00:11:08 ◼   ► that the steering stuff doesn't exist.

00:11:10 ◼   ► I find that so strange.

00:11:13 ◼   ► - We can see it, you know.

00:11:16 ◼   ► - I pay.

00:11:16 ◼   ► - We were looking right at it.

00:11:17 ◼   ► - Yeah, like I pay more money for my YouTube subscription

00:11:21 ◼   ► because I choose to do it in the app store.

00:11:25 ◼   ► Now, how is that, like me as a consumer,

00:11:30 ◼   ► my experience, I'm paying more money because of it.

00:11:34 ◼   ► So, so what then, you know?

00:11:37 ◼   ► Like this is exactly what Europe's saying,

00:11:40 ◼   ► that people are paying more money for their subscriptions

00:11:43 ◼   ► because companies increase the prices

00:11:45 ◼   ► so they're not taking a 30% cut

00:11:48 ◼   ► because Apple wants a 30% cut on our,

00:11:51 ◼   ► in some instances, I think arguably for not a lot of reason,

00:11:54 ◼   ► I think Spotify is one of these.

00:11:55 ◼   ► Like Apple did not, Apple would like you to believe

00:11:59 ◼   ► that Spotify is successful because of them.

00:12:01 ◼   ► I don't believe that's the case at all,

00:12:04 ◼   ► but that's what Apple is trying to say.

00:12:06 ◼   ► - No, the nice thing about that Apple newsroom press release

00:12:09 ◼   ► is it lays out Apple's argument very clearly,

00:12:12 ◼   ► which is successful apps that are on the iPhone

00:12:17 ◼   ► are successful in part because of all of Apple's good works

00:12:22 ◼   ► and that Apple is a partner to you.

00:12:24 ◼   ► And quite frankly, Apple's not thrilled

00:12:27 ◼   ► that they let you do that without giving them any money,

00:12:30 ◼   ► but they're willing to accept that

00:12:33 ◼   ► as long as you accept all their rules.

00:12:34 ◼   ► Like you can see the attitude, it's very clear.

00:12:37 ◼   ► This is the attitude that has driven Apple.

00:12:39 ◼   ► So they're doing us a favor by making it very clear

00:12:42 ◼   ► about their approach here.

00:12:44 ◼   ► Now, I do think they score some points.

00:12:46 ◼   ► I think Spotify, look, Spotify not wanting to be part

00:12:52 ◼   ► of the reader app thing apparently is interesting, right?

00:12:57 ◼   ► 'Cause that was Apple's like,

00:12:58 ◼   ► well, we'll let you put a link in.

00:12:59 ◼   ► It was a very dumb thing, right?

00:13:02 ◼   ► It was a smallest of concessions possible.

00:13:05 ◼   ► Spotify could have taken them up on it

00:13:06 ◼   ► and that would have lessened the blow.

00:13:07 ◼   ► And I think that's why they didn't.

00:13:08 ◼   ► So Apple calling them out, I kind of get that.

00:13:11 ◼   ► - I think it would have completely undermined their case,

00:13:14 ◼   ► which I think is fair to make, right?

00:13:15 ◼   ► Like if they would have taken that,

00:13:17 ◼   ► then they have no case anymore.

00:13:18 ◼   ► - But it allows Apple to score a point in reverse saying,

00:13:21 ◼   ► we gave them the ability to do the thing

00:13:23 ◼   ► that they're complaining about and they refused.

00:13:26 ◼   ► But again, yes, I can see both sides,

00:13:30 ◼   ► but I think it allows Apple to make that point.

00:13:32 ◼   ► It's interesting, like Apple's point is,

00:13:33 ◼   ► oh, but Spotify's successful anyway.

00:13:34 ◼   ► And it's like, well, yeah, but like they're successful

00:13:37 ◼   ► even though you have in-app purchase

00:13:39 ◼   ► with no commission to any middleman and they don't,

00:13:43 ◼   ► and they're still successful.

00:13:44 ◼   ► That doesn't necessarily mean

00:13:45 ◼   ► that they wouldn't be more successful still

00:13:48 ◼   ► if you were not doing these rules.

00:13:51 ◼   ► And these are the worst rules, right?

00:13:52 ◼   ► These anti-steering rules where it's like no,

00:13:55 ◼   ► don't admit that you have a service outside the app store.

00:13:58 ◼   ► Don't admit that there's a place

00:14:00 ◼   ► you can go to pay for things.

00:14:01 ◼   ► Just put up a screen that says,

00:14:04 ◼   ► log in with that account you made somewhere else.

00:14:06 ◼   ► We don't even know where, right?

00:14:07 ◼   ► Like it is-- They are the most flimsy

00:14:10 ◼   ► because it's like, oh, physical purchases.

00:14:12 ◼   ► No, no, they're okay.

00:14:14 ◼   ► It's like, what difference does it make?

00:14:16 ◼   ► Like why does Amazon not have to use in-app purchase

00:14:20 ◼   ► to buy things from Amazon?

00:14:22 ◼   ► But because music is digital for some reason,

00:14:25 ◼   ► like it doesn't, the steering stuff

00:14:28 ◼   ► is the worst of the worst.

00:14:30 ◼   ► And I would say this is the worst

00:14:34 ◼   ► when Apple has a direct competitor, right?

00:14:36 ◼   ► Like that's the biggest problem is.

00:14:39 ◼   ► And the like Apple music is pre-installed

00:14:44 ◼   ► on every iPhone, right?

00:14:46 ◼   ► Like Apple has so many advantages here.

00:14:50 ◼   ► And the fact, and this is the same with like

00:14:52 ◼   ► something like books versus Kindle, it's the same thing,

00:14:55 ◼   ► which is Apple has this home field advantage

00:14:57 ◼   ► and they built a product to take advantage

00:15:00 ◼   ► of the fact that they're the platform owner.

00:15:01 ◼   ► That's the stuff that really irks me.

00:15:03 ◼   ► So I appreciate Apple's post

00:15:07 ◼   ► because it really gets to the heart

00:15:08 ◼   ► of sort of what Apple's philosophy is about all of this,

00:15:11 ◼   ► which comes back to, I think,

00:15:12 ◼   ► a core part of Apple's corporate personality,

00:15:15 ◼   ► which is that anything that succeeds

00:15:17 ◼   ► that involves the iPhone,

00:15:19 ◼   ► Apple is one of the reasons it succeeded.

00:15:21 ◼   ► And on one level that's true,

00:15:23 ◼   ► but what I very rarely see is the reciprocal from Apple,

00:15:26 ◼   ► which is the iPhone has also succeeded

00:15:28 ◼   ► because of the apps that are on it.

00:15:30 ◼   ► Apple really, their attitude is that

00:15:33 ◼   ► they created a beautiful marketplace

00:15:35 ◼   ► and everybody came to the marketplace

00:15:37 ◼   ► and Apple is the landlord and Apple wants its rent.

00:15:41 ◼   ► And that's just the way that Apple views it.

00:15:43 ◼   ► And it's been clear all along,

00:15:45 ◼   ► but this newsroom post kind of clarifies that further.

00:15:48 ◼   ► I mean, there are like, look, I think that there are,

00:15:50 ◼   ► I have questions about some of the EU rulings

00:15:53 ◼   ► because to the point of bashing a market market,

00:15:59 ◼   ► market leaders competitor for not letting the market leader

00:16:04 ◼   ► have even more advantage.

00:16:05 ◼   ► It's like, there's the practical

00:16:07 ◼   ► and then there's the real, right?

00:16:09 ◼   ► There's like detail of like, well, Apple's a platform owner

00:16:11 ◼   ► and they're using their platform powers.

00:16:13 ◼   ► It's true.

00:16:13 ◼   ► Also, we're protecting the dominant player

00:16:17 ◼   ► from one of its competitors.

00:16:19 ◼   ► And it's worse 'cause it's the dominant Europe-based

00:16:22 ◼   ► competitor over the American company

00:16:25 ◼   ► that's not in first place.

00:16:27 ◼   ► Like there are ways to read this that are very protectionist

00:16:31 ◼   ► and also silly in the same way that the books ruling

00:16:36 ◼   ► against Apple was silly in that what it was doing

00:16:38 ◼   ► was protecting the dominant force over competition.

00:16:42 ◼   ► But that all said, like, I think in the end,

00:16:46 ◼   ► we've been talking about this a lot.

00:16:49 ◼   ► This is about Apple.

00:16:50 ◼   ► This is some of the worst of Apple's policies, right?

00:16:53 ◼   ► 'Cause this is literally pretend, no web links.

00:16:57 ◼   ► Like you can't go out to a web browser.

00:16:59 ◼   ► You can't tell people that you have things.

00:17:02 ◼   ► That's just some of the worst of what they do.

00:17:05 ◼   ► - Yeah, the protectionist argument, I don't really like.

00:17:09 ◼   ► Like I know that people make it,

00:17:10 ◼   ► but it's just like, this is Spotify

00:17:12 ◼   ► going to their government.

00:17:13 ◼   ► Like, would it really, something like this will,

00:17:16 ◼   ► if it hasn't already started happening in America,

00:17:18 ◼   ► it doesn't actually make a difference.

00:17:19 ◼   ► Like the fact that they're in Europe,

00:17:21 ◼   ► they're just going to the, they're going to the government

00:17:23 ◼   ► is gonna help them out the most.

00:17:25 ◼   ► There was one other thing that I really liked.

00:17:26 ◼   ► I can't find the quote now just in skimming through it,

00:17:28 ◼   ► but they reference, Apple references in one point

00:17:31 ◼   ► about at one point they sent like some of their developers

00:17:35 ◼   ► to Spotify to help them with some stuff.

00:17:37 ◼   ► Yeah, we've flown our engineers to Stockholm

00:17:40 ◼   ► to help Spotify's teams in person.

00:17:42 ◼   ► And they talk about again, and again,

00:17:44 ◼   ► Spotify pays Apple nothing.

00:17:46 ◼   ► And that to me is like kind of proving the point

00:17:49 ◼   ► of how like Apple values Spotify being on their platform

00:17:54 ◼   ► because they know it's important

00:17:56 ◼   ► for the selling of their iPhones.

00:17:58 ◼   ► Like, I feel like this is that,

00:17:59 ◼   ► in trying to make their point about how helpful Apple is,

00:18:03 ◼   ► I think it kind of, the mask slips a little bit

00:18:06 ◼   ► about the other point, which is Apple also needs Spotify

00:18:09 ◼   ► to be on their phones, because if it wasn't,

00:18:12 ◼   ► there would be an amount of people

00:18:13 ◼   ► who would be less satisfied with their iPhone.

00:18:16 ◼   ► - See, I think this section also is,

00:18:18 ◼   ► I think it's actually dumb.

00:18:20 ◼   ► I think this is a case where Apple is way over its skis now,

00:18:23 ◼   ► because what it's describing here is,

00:18:27 ◼   ► wow, Apple's really running a terrible business, right?

00:18:30 ◼   ► Because if Spotify is truly doing all of this

00:18:35 ◼   ► and Apple gives them nothing, like is that out of largess?

00:18:37 ◼   ► Like what it says to me is,

00:18:39 ◼   ► maybe you should have chosen a different set of rules

00:18:42 ◼   ► where a company like Spotify building a huge business

00:18:46 ◼   ► on your platform, maybe you and Spotify

00:18:47 ◼   ► should have worked out some sort of agreement about it.

00:18:49 ◼   ► But instead, what they're left with is,

00:18:51 ◼   ► well, you kind of gave the rules for free

00:18:53 ◼   ► and they took advantage.

00:18:55 ◼   ► So now we're putting the screws to them

00:18:57 ◼   ► because it's the only, these are the rules

00:18:59 ◼   ► that let us put the screws to them.

00:19:00 ◼   ► And there's no alternative, right?

00:19:01 ◼   ► There's no alternative involving competition.

00:19:05 ◼   ► Their only alternative is to give Apple 30%.

00:19:07 ◼   ► Those are their choices here.

00:19:09 ◼   ► So I look at this and it actually makes me chuckle

00:19:12 ◼   ► 'cause it's like, oh, we did all this stuff for free.

00:19:14 ◼   ► We give and give and give, and they still want more.

00:19:17 ◼   ► And I look at it and go, well, maybe that's dumb.

00:19:21 ◼   ► Like maybe you should have had a different model,

00:19:25 ◼   ► but this is the model you chose

00:19:26 ◼   ► and patching it with very weird,

00:19:29 ◼   ► it doesn't justify the 30% cut, right?

00:19:32 ◼   ► It doesn't, it's unconnected from them.

00:19:37 ◼   ► Spotify plays Apple at nothing.

00:19:39 ◼   ► It sure is hard to beat free, they say, okay.

00:19:43 ◼   ► And also like this idea that they say all the time,

00:19:45 ◼   ► like we treat all developers equally.

00:19:48 ◼   ► I mean, clearly not, right?

00:19:49 ◼   ► Because you sent developers to Sweden to help them.

00:19:55 ◼   ► And the same, like we frequently expedite reviews

00:19:58 ◼   ► at Spotify's requests, frequently?

00:20:00 ◼   ► I don't think most developers

00:20:02 ◼   ► get frequent expedited reviews.

00:20:05 ◼   ► They get, I think there's a limit to it, right?

00:20:07 ◼   ► That you can actually ask for a year for most apps.

00:20:11 ◼   ► So there you go.

00:20:13 ◼   ► - Yeah, it is the, it's funny because the DMA is coming

00:20:18 ◼   ► and this is like the fine for everything

00:20:20 ◼   ► in front of the DMA, essentially.

00:20:23 ◼   ► If you want a clear distillation of how Apple views it,

00:20:25 ◼   ► I think that the newsroom post is very, very well written

00:20:29 ◼   ► and makes Apple's case very clear.

00:20:32 ◼   ► But, and I think that, like I said,

00:20:35 ◼   ► I think they score some points in there,

00:20:36 ◼   ► but I think in general, it is trying to make the best

00:20:41 ◼   ► of a situation that, look, it built these rules

00:20:45 ◼   ► and then felt it was being exploited.

00:20:47 ◼   ► So it built more rules inside of it.

00:20:49 ◼   ► And then it built more rules inside of that.

00:20:51 ◼   ► And those rules turned out to be not,

00:20:53 ◼   ► be anti-competitive and rent-seeking and all those things.

00:20:55 ◼   ► And like, this is why on one level,

00:20:58 ◼   ► I kind of feel like what Apple,

00:21:00 ◼   ► like Apple's decision to have new business terms in the EU,

00:21:04 ◼   ► on one level, that really does make sense

00:21:06 ◼   ► 'cause it is Apple saying, all right,

00:21:09 ◼   ► let's change the rules.

00:21:10 ◼   ► But it only changes the rules in the one place

00:21:12 ◼   ► and you have to opt in.

00:21:13 ◼   ► It's like, okay, all right.

00:21:15 ◼   ► It's, it is what it is.

00:21:16 ◼   ► It's, Apple will appeal the decision.

00:21:19 ◼   ► So, oh boy, we'll probably talk about it more in the future.

00:21:21 ◼   ► Plus we're entering the DMA era.

00:21:23 ◼   ► So we'll see how that changes things.

00:21:25 ◼   ► - I'm in my DMA era.

00:21:28 ◼   ► It's everyone's favorite.

00:21:33 ◼   ► This episode is brought to you by Fitbaud.

00:21:35 ◼   ► When you want to change your fitness level,

00:21:37 ◼   ► it can be hard to know how to get started.

00:21:39 ◼   ► That's why I'm pleased to let you know

00:21:40 ◼   ► that Fitbaud is an easy and an affordable way

00:21:43 ◼   ► to build a fitness plan and path that is just for you

00:21:46 ◼   ► because everybody has their own path for fitness,

00:21:50 ◼   ► which is why Fitbaud uses data

00:21:52 ◼   ► to make sure they customize things to suit you exactly.

00:21:54 ◼   ► Adapting as you improve,

00:21:56 ◼   ► making sure every workout is challenging,

00:21:58 ◼   ► pushing you to make the progress in the way that you want

00:22:01 ◼   ► and keeping things interesting.

00:22:03 ◼   ► But while you're learning these new exercises,

00:22:05 ◼   ► it's made super easy.

00:22:07 ◼   ► Fitbaud has over 1000 demonstration videos

00:22:09 ◼   ► built right in within the app.

00:22:11 ◼   ► So you see a new exercise, you can read how to do it

00:22:13 ◼   ► and see a video too.

00:22:14 ◼   ► So you're going to be making sure

00:22:16 ◼   ► you're learning every movement the right way.

00:22:18 ◼   ► Superior results are achieved when a workout program

00:22:21 ◼   ► is tailored to your unique body experience,

00:22:24 ◼   ► environment and goals.

00:22:25 ◼   ► This is all stored in your Fitbaud gym profile.

00:22:28 ◼   ► This keeps track of your muscle recovery

00:22:30 ◼   ► so you can avoid burnout and keep up your momentum.

00:22:32 ◼   ► And it also builds your best possible workout

00:22:35 ◼   ► by combining the power of AI with exercise science

00:22:38 ◼   ► and certified personal trainers.

00:22:40 ◼   ► They analyze billions of data points

00:22:42 ◼   ► and they're all fine tuned by these trainers

00:22:44 ◼   ► to make sure it's just right.

00:22:46 ◼   ► Muscles improve and they work in concert with your body.

00:22:49 ◼   ► So overworking some muscles while underworking others

00:22:52 ◼   ► can impact results negatively.

00:22:54 ◼   ► This is why Fitbaud tracks your muscle fatigue and recovery

00:22:57 ◼   ► and designs a well-balanced workout routine.

00:22:59 ◼   ► So they're going to be mixing up your workouts

00:23:02 ◼   ► and your sets and all that kind of stuff.

00:23:05 ◼   ► The Fitbaud app is also really easy to use.

00:23:07 ◼   ► You can stay informed

00:23:08 ◼   ► with their progress tracking charts, your reports

00:23:11 ◼   ► and there's also sharing cards

00:23:12 ◼   ► so you can share your achievements

00:23:14 ◼   ► and your personal best for your friends and family.

00:23:17 ◼   ► I really love the way that Fitbaud works

00:23:19 ◼   ► with my Apple Watch.

00:23:20 ◼   ► So when I'm using it, if it's an exercise that I know before

00:23:23 ◼   ► I can just, yep, I can tap through, I can do it.

00:23:25 ◼   ► I can adjust anything I want to

00:23:27 ◼   ► and I can say I've completed it.

00:23:28 ◼   ► But if I see the name of an exercise I'm not familiar with

00:23:31 ◼   ► then I can go to my phone

00:23:32 ◼   ► and I can watch the videos and continue.

00:23:34 ◼   ► Personalized training of this quality can be expensive.

00:23:37 ◼   ► Fitbaud is just $12.99 a month or $79.99 a year.

00:23:41 ◼   ► But you can get 25% off your membership

00:23:43 ◼   ► by signing up today at fitbaud.me/upgrade.

00:23:47 ◼   ► So go now and get your customized fitness plan

00:23:50 ◼   ► at fitbaud.me/upgrade

00:23:53 ◼   ► for 25% off your membership at fitbaud.me/upgrade.

00:23:57 ◼   ► Our thanks to Fitbaud for the support of this show

00:24:00 ◼   ► and Relay FM.

00:24:04 ◼   ► - So this morning there was another press release.

00:24:08 ◼   ► It followed the Spotify press release.

00:24:11 ◼   ► Introducing the world to the M3 MacBook Air.

00:24:15 ◼   ► - Yeah. - Above 13 and 15 inches.

00:24:18 ◼   ► - I'd like to thank Apple for finally lining

00:24:21 ◼   ► its product announcements with upgrade.

00:24:23 ◼   ► We appreciate it.

00:24:25 ◼   ► - Yes.

00:24:26 ◼   ► Well, at least this one.

00:24:27 ◼   ► We don't know.

00:24:28 ◼   ► I feel like maybe there's some other stuff coming.

00:24:30 ◼   ► You don't think so? - Finally.

00:24:32 ◼   ► - Well, this is it, the only one.

00:24:34 ◼   ► - Just, Mike, just declare victory.

00:24:36 ◼   ► I clearly, this is what it's gonna be like

00:24:38 ◼   ► from now on forever, okay?

00:24:39 ◼   ► - A mission accomplished banner just fell behind me.

00:24:42 ◼   ► - Great. - We did it.

00:24:44 ◼   ► So there's a few things about this one.

00:24:45 ◼   ► I'm gonna read a couple of little quotes.

00:24:47 ◼   ► So we've got the midnight colorway now features

00:24:49 ◼   ► the breakthrough anodization seal to reduce fingerprints.

00:24:53 ◼   ► That was in the space black MacBook Pro, is that right?

00:24:57 ◼   ► - That's right.

00:24:58 ◼   ► - So midnight, which has become a little bit of a joke,

00:25:01 ◼   ► I think in some circles as being the fingerprint version.

00:25:03 ◼   ► They've now added that,

00:25:05 ◼   ► which I think just makes that color even better.

00:25:07 ◼   ► It's not that bad, no.

00:25:08 ◼   ► - By the way, to be clear, jargon alert,

00:25:10 ◼   ► you're the one who said colorway.

00:25:12 ◼   ► The word colorway has not yet appeared

00:25:14 ◼   ► in an Apple press release.

00:25:15 ◼   ► - I mean, at this point though, come on.

00:25:18 ◼   ► You don't like it?

00:25:20 ◼   ► - No, I just colorway. - 'Cause you like just color?

00:25:21 ◼   ► - A stupid word, color.

00:25:22 ◼   ► There's a word for it, it's color.

00:25:24 ◼   ► - I like color.

00:25:25 ◼   ► - What way is that color?

00:25:26 ◼   ► - It's the way towards color, you know?

00:25:28 ◼   ► That's what it means.

00:25:29 ◼   ► It's this way towards color.

00:25:31 ◼   ► I have no problem with colorway.

00:25:32 ◼   ► Although I am a person who doesn't like jargon,

00:25:35 ◼   ► so maybe I should get rid of that one

00:25:37 ◼   ► because I've got to kind of like live to my own ideals

00:25:40 ◼   ► in this world.

00:25:41 ◼   ► The M3 MacBook Air features Wi-Fi 6E,

00:25:44 ◼   ► which is apparently two times faster, which is nice.

00:25:47 ◼   ► But here's the big thing.

00:25:48 ◼   ► Here's the thing, we've burned a lot of minutes

00:25:51 ◼   ► talking about this exact idea.

00:25:54 ◼   ► MacBook Air with M3 now supports up to two external displays

00:25:58 ◼   ► when the laptop lid is closed.

00:26:01 ◼   ► So it can support one display of up to 6K

00:26:05 ◼   ► and then a second up to 5K resolution.

00:26:09 ◼   ► - That's right.

00:26:09 ◼   ► - Now this is really interesting

00:26:11 ◼   ► because this is the thing we were talking about a lot

00:26:15 ◼   ► that the M3 MacBook Pro didn't do this, right?

00:26:19 ◼   ► Like it was, you could just have your display open

00:26:24 ◼   ► and plug in one display.

00:26:25 ◼   ► If you tried to hook up a second display, it wouldn't work,

00:26:28 ◼   ► but also you can't just close it and see two displays.

00:26:33 ◼   ► It was your internal display and one external display

00:26:35 ◼   ► or bust, whether you're using the internal display or not.

00:26:39 ◼   ► What do you think is going on here?

00:26:40 ◼   ► What do you think they've done?

00:26:41 ◼   ► - I don't know.

00:26:43 ◼   ► I'm real interested in finding out

00:26:47 ◼   ► because this is not a feature in the M3 MacBook Pro

00:26:52 ◼   ► low-end model.

00:26:54 ◼   ► So what happened?

00:26:58 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:26:59 ◼   ► Is it something integral in the hardware

00:27:02 ◼   ► where the way they've integrated this display

00:27:06 ◼   ► allows it to do that?

00:27:07 ◼   ► Or is it, I don't know.

00:27:12 ◼   ► I mean, this is one of those things

00:27:13 ◼   ► where I look forward to talking to Apple

00:27:14 ◼   ► and asking them why this is like this now.

00:27:17 ◼   ► It's great.

00:27:18 ◼   ► The people who complained about this feature

00:27:21 ◼   ► will just shift to complaining

00:27:22 ◼   ► about how it doesn't do it lit open.

00:27:24 ◼   ► But for me, this is one of the major drawbacks

00:27:29 ◼   ► of the MacBook Air and Apple Silicon

00:27:31 ◼   ► that has been rectified.

00:27:32 ◼   ► - Yes.

00:27:33 ◼   ► - If you need to run three monitors simultaneously,

00:27:36 ◼   ► the two externals and the internal monitor,

00:27:40 ◼   ► buy a MacBook Pro.

00:27:42 ◼   ► - There's always one more monitor.

00:27:43 ◼   ► - I feel okay about that.

00:27:44 ◼   ► - There can always be one more.

00:27:45 ◼   ► - There will always be one more monitor.

00:27:47 ◼   ► - But this does make,

00:27:48 ◼   ► and I remember we were talking about this at the time

00:27:51 ◼   ► where we were like, why not, there are two displays.

00:27:55 ◼   ► Why not always run two displays,

00:27:57 ◼   ► whether it's open or close, right?

00:27:58 ◼   ► So if you've closed it, then run two displays.

00:28:01 ◼   ► And so it seems like they found a way to do it.

00:28:04 ◼   ► I wonder if this is going to like,

00:28:06 ◼   ► would you assume this has to be a hardware change?

00:28:10 ◼   ► I mean, I know we can maybe try

00:28:12 ◼   ► and find this information out,

00:28:14 ◼   ► but would you expect that this is a actual change

00:28:16 ◼   ► to the M3 chip?

00:28:20 ◼   ► - No, no, I think the chip has not changed at all.

00:28:23 ◼   ► I don't think, no, I think an M3 is an M3 is an M3.

00:28:26 ◼   ► I think it has to do with the particular,

00:28:28 ◼   ► it's either a firmware thing,

00:28:30 ◼   ► or it is a particular way that the MacBook Air

00:28:35 ◼   ► has been built to allow it to turn off.

00:28:38 ◼   ► 'Cause remember the Mac mini supports two external displays,

00:28:41 ◼   ► with M1 and M2,

00:28:43 ◼   ► because it doesn't have a third display wired.

00:28:47 ◼   ► So it may just be the way that the display

00:28:50 ◼   ► on the MacBook Air is connected,

00:28:52 ◼   ► is different than the way it was,

00:28:55 ◼   ► the display was connected on the M2.

00:28:57 ◼   ► And it allows the system to shut down that display

00:29:02 ◼   ► and use that resource somewhere else.

00:29:04 ◼   ► But I don't know, right?

00:29:05 ◼   ► Like I don't know enough about

00:29:07 ◼   ► what all the moving parts are.

00:29:08 ◼   ► I don't expect that the chip is any different.

00:29:10 ◼   ► I don't think that's it.

00:29:11 ◼   ► I think it's how the computer was built,

00:29:13 ◼   ► or it's a firmware kind of thing

00:29:16 ◼   ► that they've updated the firmware

00:29:18 ◼   ► to shut down that internal display

00:29:23 ◼   ► and drive it to external displays.

00:29:25 ◼   ► And if it's firmware,

00:29:27 ◼   ► I mean, maybe they could do an update

00:29:29 ◼   ► that would enable that on the MacBook Pro.

00:29:32 ◼   ► That's what I have to ask.

00:29:33 ◼   ► But my gut feeling is that they built it

00:29:36 ◼   ► into the MacBook Air,

00:29:37 ◼   ► and that's why the MacBook Air can do this.

00:29:39 ◼   ► - 'Cause it would be a shame, I think,

00:29:42 ◼   ► if there wasn't a way to bring this capability

00:29:44 ◼   ► to the MacBook Pro.

00:29:45 ◼   ► Like, because I've got to wonder

00:29:49 ◼   ► if they worked on this capability

00:29:52 ◼   ► because of people talking about it on the MacBook Pro.

00:29:55 ◼   ► And then if like, if that's the case,

00:29:56 ◼   ► like it's a really strange thing to be like,

00:29:58 ◼   ► yeah, but the MacBook Air does it.

00:30:00 ◼   ► Don't worry about the MacBook Pro.

00:30:01 ◼   ► The MacBook Air does it.

00:30:03 ◼   ► 'Cause you know, like we talk about this

00:30:05 ◼   ► and lots of people talk about this.

00:30:06 ◼   ► Like Apple's product lineups are strange

00:30:09 ◼   ► to work out sometimes.

00:30:11 ◼   ► And this would definitely make it more complicated, right?

00:30:14 ◼   ► Because this is a more powerful feature, right?

00:30:19 ◼   ► That the MacBook Air would have over the MacBook Pro.

00:30:23 ◼   ► - Right.

00:30:24 ◼   ► - For like getting work done.

00:30:26 ◼   ► - For the base model, yes.

00:30:28 ◼   ► - And the MacBook Pro is supposed to be the thing

00:30:31 ◼   ► that is the more powerful

00:30:33 ◼   ► to let you get the best work done, right?

00:30:34 ◼   ► - Right, but in the base model, you would pay more,

00:30:36 ◼   ► you would get that display, but you wouldn't get the two.

00:30:39 ◼   ► Well, I mean, it's not that complicated.

00:30:41 ◼   ► If you want to use two external displays,

00:30:44 ◼   ► don't get that one, get this one.

00:30:45 ◼   ► - Yes.

00:30:46 ◼   ► - And because the chip is the same.

00:30:48 ◼   ► So it's really just that,

00:30:49 ◼   ► but what you will lose is that beautiful internal display

00:30:54 ◼   ► that's on the MacBook Pro. - Which is really amazing.

00:30:56 ◼   ► This also does make me think that like,

00:30:58 ◼   ► one of the things that we were talking about at the time

00:31:00 ◼   ► is like we had expected that the MacBook Air

00:31:02 ◼   ► had kind of become the default machine that people get

00:31:07 ◼   ► in a lot of workplaces or should be.

00:31:11 ◼   ► And I feel like this just underscores that.

00:31:13 ◼   ► Like the MacBook Air 100% should be the computer

00:31:16 ◼   ► that your employer buys you,

00:31:17 ◼   ► unless you have a very specific need, right?

00:31:20 ◼   ► - Right, and we've heard those stories before,

00:31:22 ◼   ► and those will only continue now,

00:31:24 ◼   ► where somebody gets ends up with a substandard,

00:31:27 ◼   ► like just an M3 base MacBook Pro instead of a MacBook Air.

00:31:32 ◼   ► And they want to use two external displays

00:31:36 ◼   ► and they can't, right?

00:31:37 ◼   ► Like that'll happen.

00:31:40 ◼   ► And they'll be very frustrated

00:31:41 ◼   ► that there was another option out there

00:31:43 ◼   ► that would have done it

00:31:44 ◼   ► and probably given them better specs, right?

00:31:46 ◼   ► Because they would have been able to price it up

00:31:48 ◼   ► a little bit to get it to MacBook Pro base model price,

00:31:51 ◼   ► and it would have had more stuff in it.

00:31:53 ◼   ► And then it will just not,

00:31:54 ◼   ► their company will be like,

00:31:55 ◼   ► "Well, no, that's a consumer laptop.

00:31:56 ◼   ► We need a pro laptop."

00:31:58 ◼   ► Yeah, it's weird.

00:31:59 ◼   ► - And how about this paragraph for foreshadowing?

00:32:04 ◼   ► "With the transition to Apple Silicon,

00:32:05 ◼   ► every Mac is a great platform for AI.

00:32:09 ◼   ► M3 includes a faster, more efficient neural engine

00:32:12 ◼   ► along with accelerators in the CPU and GPU

00:32:14 ◼   ► to boost on-device machine learning,

00:32:16 ◼   ► making MacBook Air the world's best consumer laptop for AI."

00:32:21 ◼   ► - Right, which just means that it's Apple's consumer laptop

00:32:25 ◼   ► and it's got the new neural engine in the,

00:32:27 ◼   ► or with more cores in the M3.

00:32:30 ◼   ► - They're talking about AI.

00:32:32 ◼   ► - It's meaningless.

00:32:33 ◼   ► Yeah, AI has become a checkbox.

00:32:38 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:32:39 ◼   ► - A bullet point.

00:32:40 ◼   ► You've got to mention,

00:32:41 ◼   ► everybody was like, "Well, what about AI?

00:32:42 ◼   ► I hear AI is big.

00:32:44 ◼   ► Can this computer do it, the AI?"

00:32:45 ◼   ► And Apple's like, "Yep, yep, great.

00:32:47 ◼   ► We got some stuff." - Well, boy, does it.

00:32:48 ◼   ► It does AI like you wouldn't believe.

00:32:50 ◼   ► But I feel like they have,

00:32:52 ◼   ► they've stayed away from using this term,

00:32:55 ◼   ► I feel like, by and large.

00:32:57 ◼   ► And it feels like,

00:32:58 ◼   ► I guess now they're just embracing it

00:32:59 ◼   ► as they should, I think.

00:33:00 ◼   ► - They're just embracing it, yeah.

00:33:02 ◼   ► So the, right,

00:33:04 ◼   ► 'cause they lean on machine learning a lot more.

00:33:07 ◼   ► I think it's funny.

00:33:09 ◼   ► It's always funny to see what they use as their examples.

00:33:12 ◼   ► So for AI, it's like GoodNotes 6 with AI math assistance,

00:33:17 ◼   ► Pixelmator Pro photo enhancement,

00:33:21 ◼   ► background noise removal in CapCut.

00:33:24 ◼   ► Like, it's very specific.

00:33:27 ◼   ► Like, we've got some ML enhanced things in software,

00:33:31 ◼   ► and it could run LLMs and diffusion models

00:33:36 ◼   ► for image generation locally,

00:33:37 ◼   ► which I guess is basically like those apps

00:33:39 ◼   ► that you download the open source model and run it.

00:33:42 ◼   ► So, I mean, it's not untrue.

00:33:44 ◼   ► It's just something that,

00:33:46 ◼   ► just like how they always mention recyclability,

00:33:48 ◼   ► like these Macs have,

00:33:51 ◼   ► they say first Apple product to be made

00:33:53 ◼   ► with 50% recycled content, 100% of the aluminum,

00:33:56 ◼   ► but also 100% of the rare earth elements and magnets,

00:33:59 ◼   ► 100% recycled copper in the main logic board,

00:34:01 ◼   ► which is a first for them.

00:34:03 ◼   ► So, and 99% fiber-based packaging, right?

00:34:05 ◼   ► Like, they always say that.

00:34:07 ◼   ► Well, it's a checkbox.

00:34:09 ◼   ► The environmental thing,

00:34:10 ◼   ► Apple got criticized like 20 years ago by Greenpeace.

00:34:13 ◼   ► And since then, it has been calling out

00:34:15 ◼   ► its environmental commitments in their PR.

00:34:17 ◼   ► And that's just part of what they do.

00:34:19 ◼   ► Well, the AI drum beat has gotten so loud

00:34:24 ◼   ► that they're like, all right, we'll list our AI,

00:34:28 ◼   ► we'll disclose our AI hardware that we've built,

00:34:31 ◼   ► that we've improved, and here it is,

00:34:34 ◼   ► just because somebody is gonna ask.

00:34:36 ◼   ► And like, does it address some of the questions

00:34:38 ◼   ► about Apple software and AI?

00:34:40 ◼   ► No, it does not.

00:34:42 ◼   ► But it does, they're pointing at the hardware

00:34:44 ◼   ► and they're pointing at the neural engine,

00:34:45 ◼   ► they're pointing at the stuff that they can point at

00:34:47 ◼   ► and say, yeah, sure.

00:34:48 ◼   ► We have an AI story too, and it's the neural engine.

00:34:51 ◼   ► - The lowest configs start with eight gigabytes of RAM.

00:34:55 ◼   ► I'm mentioning that 'cause there's always a thing, right?

00:34:59 ◼   ► It's always a good thing.

00:35:00 ◼   ► - Good to make people mad.

00:35:02 ◼   ► - Yep.

00:35:02 ◼   ► - We took the fingerprints away from you.

00:35:07 ◼   ► We took the two external displays away from you.

00:35:09 ◼   ► Where can people be mad?

00:35:10 ◼   ► - There's always gonna be something, we gotta find it.

00:35:13 ◼   ► We're gonna find it, and that's where it is.

00:35:15 ◼   ► - It's great, yeah.

00:35:18 ◼   ► Eight gigs of RAM, 256 gig SSD for 1099.

00:35:22 ◼   ► I'll just point out, that's an M3 at 1099.

00:35:26 ◼   ► Remember that the M2 MacBook Air started at what, 1299?

00:35:30 ◼   ► So they have managed to get the price down on these things.

00:35:34 ◼   ► And one of the ways they do it is those are configurations

00:35:37 ◼   ► you're probably gonna wanna upgrade.

00:35:38 ◼   ► So for 1299, you can get the 10 core GPU with 512 SSD.

00:35:43 ◼   ► And for 1499, you can get that product

00:35:47 ◼   ► that that sad person whose company bought them

00:35:49 ◼   ► an M3 MacBook Pro instead of the M3 MacBook Air.

00:35:52 ◼   ► This is the one that they want, right?

00:35:53 ◼   ► 'Cause it's 10 core GPU, 16 gigs of RAM, 512 SSD for 1499,

00:35:58 ◼   ► which is a pretty good value.

00:36:01 ◼   ► But they got the base models down,

00:36:02 ◼   ► and then they pushed the,

00:36:04 ◼   ► the M2 version is still available at 999.

00:36:09 ◼   ► So that product has come way down

00:36:11 ◼   ► from when it was introduced a couple of years ago,

00:36:13 ◼   ► all the way to a base model at 999.

00:36:16 ◼   ► And I guess that means- - Yeah, so we say goodbye

00:36:18 ◼   ► to the old MacBook Air design, it's gone now.

00:36:21 ◼   ► - Farewell, and it is the classic MacBook Air design.

00:36:24 ◼   ► The M1 MacBook Air was sort of the last computer

00:36:28 ◼   ► to have the classic MacBook Air design.

00:36:30 ◼   ► And all of our talk about maybe they'll just keep it around

00:36:33 ◼   ► and keep getting it, nope, it's gone.

00:36:35 ◼   ► Just gone, gone, gone, gone.

00:36:38 ◼   ► And instead there's a 999 M2 Air,

00:36:41 ◼   ► 899 in education, right?

00:36:43 ◼   ► So like they're basically saying that's it, right?

00:36:48 ◼   ► Like that's as low as they need to go.

00:36:50 ◼   ► They don't need to go with their laptop,

00:36:52 ◼   ► at least right now, any lower than that.

00:36:54 ◼   ► - It was funny, I was talking to my wife about this today.

00:36:57 ◼   ► I didn't use this as an M1 MacBook Air.

00:36:59 ◼   ► And I was just saying, "Oh, they did this."

00:37:00 ◼   ► And she's like, you know, saying,

00:37:02 ◼   ► "Oh, they got rid of the one that you have."

00:37:03 ◼   ► And she's like, "Oh no."

00:37:04 ◼   ► I'm like, "What?"

00:37:05 ◼   ► She's like, "I love the way that mine looks.

00:37:07 ◼   ► That's the one that I want.

00:37:08 ◼   ► Like I want to hang onto it for as long as possible."

00:37:10 ◼   ► I'm like, "Great, you can."

00:37:11 ◼   ► Like the M1 MacBook Air is great,

00:37:12 ◼   ► you'll have it for a long time.

00:37:14 ◼   ► And I'm like, "What do you like about it?"

00:37:15 ◼   ► She's like, "I like how sleek it is."

00:37:17 ◼   ► And I'm like, "You know, mine's thinner, right?"

00:37:18 ◼   ► She's like, "Yeah, but I like the curvy look of it."

00:37:20 ◼   ► Like it is a design style that some people prefer. And she does, she doesn't like mine. She's like, "It's too square, it's too boxy."

00:37:27 ◼   ► And she's like, "I like how light mine is."

00:37:29 ◼   ► I'm like, "Mine's lighter."

00:37:30 ◼   ► She's like, "No, but mine feels lighter."

00:37:32 ◼   ► I'm like, "What are you talking about?"

00:37:34 ◼   ► But you know, different strokes.

00:37:36 ◼   ► - Time moves on.

00:37:36 ◼   ► - Yep, it sure does.

00:37:38 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:37:39 ◼   ► - There were rumors about this coming,

00:37:41 ◼   ► that there were going to be products released this week.

00:37:44 ◼   ► And I've got a report from MacRumors

00:37:48 ◼   ► where they had a source about some stuff

00:37:50 ◼   ► and they got it right that there would be MacBook Airs

00:37:52 ◼   ► and there would be, there are also new iPhone cases

00:37:54 ◼   ► and watch bands and stuff like that.

00:37:56 ◼   ► But the other big rumor out there is iPads.

00:38:00 ◼   ► So I wonder if we're going to see them,

00:38:01 ◼   ► hopefully next Monday, you know,

00:38:03 ◼   ► so that we can keep the upgrade train going here.

00:38:05 ◼   ► - Keep it running.

00:38:06 ◼   ► - Keep it running.

00:38:07 ◼   ► - Yeah, I think maybe so.

00:38:08 ◼   ► - We'll keep, that's what we'll assume next Monday.

00:38:10 ◼   ► But that's still on the horizon.

00:38:12 ◼   ► Do you have anything more to say on these MacBook Airs?

00:38:15 ◼   ► - No, I mean, can't wait to get my hands on them.

00:38:18 ◼   ► Interested to see,

00:38:18 ◼   ► oh yes, I have one other note,

00:38:20 ◼   ► which is in the pantheon of short-lived Apple products,

00:38:25 ◼   ► we must now induct the M2 15 inch MacBook Air.

00:38:31 ◼   ► - Oh yeah.

00:38:32 ◼   ► - Which is gone.

00:38:32 ◼   ► - Oh, they only, they don't do a quote unquote,

00:38:36 ◼   ► like cheaper model of the 15.

00:38:38 ◼   ► It's just the-

00:38:39 ◼   ► - No, just the 13.

00:38:41 ◼   ► So the 15 inch M2 MacBook Air,

00:38:44 ◼   ► which arrived last summer is now dead.

00:38:47 ◼   ► - Wow, but that's okay.

00:38:49 ◼   ► - That did not last a very long time.

00:38:50 ◼   ► - 'Cause the M3 models are exactly the same.

00:38:53 ◼   ► I mean, from all my read on that,

00:38:56 ◼   ► and this is the thing,

00:38:56 ◼   ► it's like this is an internals update,

00:38:59 ◼   ► it's really an M3 update.

00:39:01 ◼   ► Everything else about these things,

00:39:03 ◼   ► other than the anodization seal, yeah, yeah.

00:39:06 ◼   ► And the way, and how they look are the same.

00:39:09 ◼   ► So they, yeah, they don't wanna do a discounted 15.

00:39:15 ◼   ► They just want the current 15.

00:39:17 ◼   ► So they do that with some stuff, right?

00:39:19 ◼   ► Where it was like, well, no, but this is the,

00:39:21 ◼   ► there's only gonna be one of these.

00:39:23 ◼   ► We're not gonna, we hit our,

00:39:25 ◼   ► that old M2 is down there in the price list

00:39:28 ◼   ► for price reasons.

00:39:29 ◼   ► And the old 15 inch would not be down there, right?

00:39:32 ◼   ► It would be competing at a higher price

00:39:35 ◼   ► and they don't want that.

00:39:36 ◼   ► So the RIP M2 15 inch.

00:39:39 ◼   ► - Man, I gotta say stuff like this,

00:39:42 ◼   ► like that specific thing,

00:39:44 ◼   ► it's like, I would love to know

00:39:46 ◼   ► how Apple's inventory management works.

00:39:49 ◼   ► How could they have predicted the amount

00:39:52 ◼   ► that they would need for this period,

00:39:54 ◼   ► for a product that hadn't existed before?

00:39:57 ◼   ► - That's a good question.

00:39:59 ◼   ► I'm sure they watched the sales and stopped making them

00:40:01 ◼   ► when they felt they had enough, right?

00:40:03 ◼   ► And then they have outlets.

00:40:04 ◼   ► They'll have any leftovers end up getting in a,

00:40:08 ◼   ► they're put on Amazon or they're sold to partners

00:40:11 ◼   ► or like they can do it with the remnants of it.

00:40:13 ◼   ► But I think what they, starting last,

00:40:15 ◼   ► remember last summer, they're able to monitor 15 inch sales

00:40:19 ◼   ► and they don't, remember Apple doesn't like having

00:40:21 ◼   ► a lot of inventory on hand.

00:40:22 ◼   ► So they don't make, they wanna make

00:40:25 ◼   ► as many as they can sell.

00:40:26 ◼   ► So even if they made a bunch of,

00:40:28 ◼   ► the only time that Apple gets burned by that

00:40:30 ◼   ► is if they make a bunch of something upfront

00:40:31 ◼   ► and then the sales aren't anything close

00:40:33 ◼   ► 'cause they have to fill the channel

00:40:34 ◼   ► and then they're like, oh no, we made so many,

00:40:37 ◼   ► we don't know if we'll ever empty the channel.

00:40:38 ◼   ► Like the HomePod was like that, right?

00:40:40 ◼   ► Original HomePod, they made a lot of them.

00:40:42 ◼   ► And then they realized that they were gonna struggle

00:40:46 ◼   ► to sell all of them.

00:40:47 ◼   ► But with a 15 inch AR, my guess is that that's not the case

00:40:50 ◼   ► and that they knew very quickly how many

00:40:52 ◼   ► they would need to make to get to this point.

00:40:54 ◼   ► And again, probably the M3 models are a minor change

00:40:58 ◼   ► in terms of manufacturing because they look

00:41:01 ◼   ► for all intents and purposes identical

00:41:04 ◼   ► to the ones that came before.

00:41:06 ◼   ► So it was probably not a huge change.

00:41:08 ◼   ► But yeah, that 15 inch model, gone, gone.

00:41:13 ◼   ► - I was well into my twenties before I realized

00:41:16 ◼   ► that that phrase was not intensive purposes,

00:41:19 ◼   ► all intensive purposes.

00:41:21 ◼   ► - No, it's not, it's intense and purposes.

00:41:25 ◼   ► It's one of those English phrases where you say,

00:41:27 ◼   ► where you are repetitive in order to make a point.

00:41:30 ◼   ► It's, you know, our language is very special.

00:41:35 ◼   ► - Very special, but whatever you do,

00:41:37 ◼   ► don't say colorway.

00:41:39 ◼   ► - It's, colorway is bad.

00:41:41 ◼   ► It's just a dumb, it's just dumb.

00:41:43 ◼   ► It's just dumb jargon.

00:41:46 ◼   ► Like how do we dress up a word?

00:41:47 ◼   ► Well, let's just add a little,

00:41:48 ◼   ► it's like saying incentivize.

00:41:51 ◼   ► It's like, or you could just say it gives an incentive.

00:41:54 ◼   ► No, no, no, it incentivizes the upsell of the, you know,

00:41:59 ◼   ► sorry, Merlin's got a list of all those terrible phrases.

00:42:01 ◼   ► Monetize and incentivize.

00:42:03 ◼   ► It's like, I like when people say copious, you know,

00:42:08 ◼   ► I feel like it's copious, it's like a word that people use.

00:42:11 ◼   ► So they sound smart, just say lots, it's fine.

00:42:14 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, there are fun words out there

00:42:17 ◼   ► that have fun meanings, but yeah, that's colorway.

00:42:19 ◼   ► I tweaked to colorway at some point because I thought,

00:42:22 ◼   ► oh, somebody just came up with like a stylish sounding word

00:42:27 ◼   ► for it is a color.

00:42:29 ◼   ► We offer this in, I mean, the other thing is colorway

00:42:33 ◼   ► can mean like a collection of colors.

00:42:35 ◼   ► I think in that way, it actually works for me

00:42:38 ◼   ► where I was like, well,

00:42:38 ◼   ► and you can see in our sandstone colorway,

00:42:42 ◼   ► we offer these various sort of like earth tones or whatever,

00:42:45 ◼   ► but when it's like, it comes in blue and brown,

00:42:48 ◼   ► those are our colorways.

00:42:49 ◼   ► It's like, no, those are just your colors, dude.

00:42:51 ◼   ► They're just colors, it's fine.

00:42:52 ◼   ► - The Oxford dictionary defines colorway

00:42:55 ◼   ► as any of a range of combinations of colors

00:42:59 ◼   ► in which a style or design is available.

00:43:03 ◼   ► - Combination of colors.

00:43:05 ◼   ► - And the word started being used in like the 1920s.

00:43:10 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's gross, make it die.

00:43:12 ◼   ► - This episode is brought to you by Express VPN.

00:43:16 ◼   ► There are tons of VPN providers out there,

00:43:19 ◼   ► but there's a reason that I use Express VPN

00:43:22 ◼   ► and why we have them as a sponsor is 'cause they're good.

00:43:24 ◼   ► Express VPN doesn't log your activity online.

00:43:28 ◼   ► You can get lots of cheap or free VPNs out there,

00:43:30 ◼   ► but they're gonna make money by selling your data

00:43:32 ◼   ► to advertisers, Express VPN doesn't do this.

00:43:35 ◼   ► They even developed a technology called trusted server

00:43:38 ◼   ► that makes a VPN servers incapable of storing data

00:43:40 ◼   ► because it stores it in RAM, so it just gets erased.

00:43:43 ◼   ► I like that.

00:43:44 ◼   ► Express VPN is super fast.

00:43:46 ◼   ► They use another technology they made called Lightway,

00:43:49 ◼   ► which is a new VPN protocol that they engineered

00:43:51 ◼   ► to make user speeds faster than ever.

00:43:53 ◼   ► If you've tried other VPNs,

00:43:55 ◼   ► you'll know that they can sometimes slow your connection,

00:43:57 ◼   ► but Express VPN is always blazing fast

00:43:59 ◼   ► and they should stream videos in HD quality with zero buffering.

00:44:02 ◼   ► This is my favorite thing about Express VPN,

00:44:04 ◼   ► the biggest use that I get out of it,

00:44:07 ◼   ► Express VPN in general is when I'm traveling,

00:44:09 ◼   ► because if I don't know a Wi-Fi network,

00:44:11 ◼   ► I wanna feel secure on it, so I'll connect to Express VPN,

00:44:13 ◼   ► but then I can also change my location to be back to home,

00:44:16 ◼   ► so I can continue watching that show

00:44:18 ◼   ► I'm watching on Netflix or whatever

00:44:19 ◼   ► that might not be available when I'm traveling,

00:44:21 ◼   ► but if I'm gonna do that,

00:44:22 ◼   ► I don't wanna have to sit through buffering.

00:44:24 ◼   ► Hotel Wi-Fi is bad enough,

00:44:26 ◼   ► you don't want a VPN to make it worse.

00:44:28 ◼   ► I think we have Express VPN and never have this problem.

00:44:30 ◼   ► It's super easy to use as well,

00:44:32 ◼   ► don't need any technical skills,

00:44:33 ◼   ► you just fire up the app,

00:44:34 ◼   ► tap one button and you're connected.

00:44:36 ◼   ► Your kids, your grandparents,

00:44:37 ◼   ► tech savvy people or not, anyone can use it.

00:44:40 ◼   ► This is why Mashable, The Verge and many other tech websites

00:44:43 ◼   ► have rated Express VPN the number one VPN in the world.

00:44:47 ◼   ► So protect yourself online with the VPN that I use

00:44:50 ◼   ► and I trust, go to expressvpn.com/upgrade today

00:44:54 ◼   ► and get an extra three months free on a one year package.

00:44:57 ◼   ► That's expressvpn.com/upgrade.

00:45:01 ◼   ► One last time, expressvpn.com/upgrade to learn more.

00:45:05 ◼   ► Our thanks to Express VPN for the support of this show

00:45:08 ◼   ► and Relay FM.

00:45:09 ◼   ► We now get to do something that we have very seldom done

00:45:14 ◼   ► in the history of this show.

00:45:15 ◼   ► I'm not sure if you've ever done it.

00:45:17 ◼   ► We get to raise like a banner into the arena of upgrade,

00:45:23 ◼   ► the upshift podcast artwork, which was created

00:45:28 ◼   ► a couple of years ago for whenever we would talk

00:45:30 ◼   ► about Apple's car efforts.

00:45:32 ◼   ► We get to raise it up into the sky

00:45:35 ◼   ► for everybody to look up at because the Apple car--

00:45:39 ◼   ► - It's a weird metaphor.

00:45:40 ◼   ► - Is no more.

00:45:41 ◼   ► You know like, isn't that what you do in sports?

00:45:43 ◼   ► You like raise the jerseys?

00:45:45 ◼   ► - Well, you raise a banner if you win a championship,

00:45:48 ◼   ► you raise the jersey, you're retiring a number.

00:45:50 ◼   ► I think the way I would put this is,

00:45:52 ◼   ► we are doing a very special thing today,

00:45:54 ◼   ► which is we are retiring upshift as a topic on upgrade.

00:45:59 ◼   ► It's more than just the art, it's the topic, right?

00:46:04 ◼   ► It's beautiful art.

00:46:05 ◼   ► But like what we're really doing is we are saying goodbye

00:46:08 ◼   ► to a beloved question mark topic on our podcast,

00:46:13 ◼   ► because as goes the Apple car project,

00:46:18 ◼   ► so goes the upshift segment.

00:46:20 ◼   ► - Yep, Mark Gurman at Bloomberg first reported on Tuesday

00:46:25 ◼   ► that Apple has decided to cancel its plans to build a car,

00:46:29 ◼   ► also known as Project Titan.

00:46:31 ◼   ► This project shifted a lot throughout the 10 years

00:46:33 ◼   ► that it was in development from full self-driving

00:46:36 ◼   ► to partial self-driving and everything in between.

00:46:38 ◼   ► Mark Gurman says that almost 2000 people

00:46:41 ◼   ► were working on the project up until recently.

00:46:44 ◼   ► It had been headed most recently by Kevin Lynch,

00:46:46 ◼   ► who along with COO, Jeff Williams made the call

00:46:49 ◼   ► to stop their efforts.

00:46:51 ◼   ► Many of the employees that are in this team,

00:46:53 ◼   ► which is known as the Special Projects Group,

00:46:55 ◼   ► will now have their efforts turned towards AI work

00:46:58 ◼   ► and will join John G and Andrea's team.

00:47:01 ◼   ► What do you think about this?

00:47:04 ◼   ► - Well, so I wrote a lot of words about this on Friday.

00:47:15 ◼   ► I am not one of those people who's like,

00:47:19 ◼   ► I'm glad that they killed this project

00:47:20 ◼   ► 'cause I never thought it was a good idea, right?

00:47:22 ◼   ► Like breaking news,

00:47:25 ◼   ► your opinions were validated a decade later.

00:47:28 ◼   ► I feel pretty strongly like there was a moment

00:47:34 ◼   ► like 10 years ago when this apparently all started,

00:47:37 ◼   ► when if you think back to that,

00:47:39 ◼   ► like who was even making electric cars then?

00:47:41 ◼   ► It was Tesla and they really only had the one model

00:47:45 ◼   ► that they were shipping to consumers,

00:47:48 ◼   ► which was the Model S, very expensive one.

00:47:52 ◼   ► But then they were talking about self-driving and all that.

00:47:54 ◼   ► There was a moment, I think, where Apple could have said,

00:47:57 ◼   ► we see how the computer technology

00:48:02 ◼   ► is gonna eat the car industry.

00:48:04 ◼   ► And we know computer technology.

00:48:07 ◼   ► And we're not worried about the details

00:48:08 ◼   ► of like a drive train or whatever,

00:48:10 ◼   ► like we'll buy our license or whatever.

00:48:12 ◼   ► It's not that big a deal,

00:48:13 ◼   ► but like what's more likely that the car industry

00:48:17 ◼   ► is gonna understand hardware and software for computers

00:48:20 ◼   ► and sensors and batteries and all those things,

00:48:23 ◼   ► or that we who understand all those things

00:48:26 ◼   ► can come into the car market.

00:48:28 ◼   ► The idea that cars and computers are converging

00:48:30 ◼   ► in the late 2020s, let's say,

00:48:33 ◼   ► and that Apple had just as much of a chance

00:48:36 ◼   ► to get there as GM did, if not more, right?

00:48:39 ◼   ► I think that was the argument.

00:48:42 ◼   ► As far as I kind of considered it,

00:48:45 ◼   ► what was there's a place here

00:48:48 ◼   ► where the car makers are asleep

00:48:51 ◼   ► and Tesla is the only one playing this game

00:48:54 ◼   ► and we could play this game

00:48:55 ◼   ► and we have more resources than Tesla.

00:48:57 ◼   ► And we could eat the lunch of the auto industry

00:49:01 ◼   ► and even maybe get to the point

00:49:03 ◼   ► where we have technology that's so advanced

00:49:04 ◼   ► that they're gonna either come to us begging

00:49:06 ◼   ► or we're gonna be able to leverage their expertise

00:49:12 ◼   ► in the car part of it, but at our terms.

00:49:16 ◼   ► I think that there is a really strong case to be made

00:49:18 ◼   ► at the beginning that computer cars essentially

00:49:22 ◼   ► are gonna be a thing and why not Apple?

00:49:25 ◼   ► And if you're a company that has all the money

00:49:28 ◼   ► and is worried about where your future revenue growth

00:49:30 ◼   ► is gonna come from, that is worth placing a bet.

00:49:35 ◼   ► Now, keep in mind, I also wanna say,

00:49:37 ◼   ► 'cause by all accounts, this is like a 10-year-old project.

00:49:40 ◼   ► That's an era, they hadn't even 10 years ago,

00:49:43 ◼   ► they hadn't even done a bigger iPhone yet, right?

00:49:47 ◼   ► They hadn't even done the iPhone 6 Plus yet.

00:49:50 ◼   ► So they weren't really talking

00:49:53 ◼   ► about their services business yet.

00:49:55 ◼   ► The Apple Watch hadn't come out yet.

00:49:58 ◼   ► It came out like 10 years ago or nine years ago.

00:50:02 ◼   ► It was announced a little less than 10 years ago.

00:50:05 ◼   ► So it was a long time ago,

00:50:08 ◼   ► but like if you're looking at the future

00:50:10 ◼   ► and your growth as a company

00:50:11 ◼   ► and knowing that Wall Street will demand infinite growth,

00:50:14 ◼   ► placing a bet with all of your cash that you have on hand,

00:50:18 ◼   ► and they had a lot back then, it's not a bad idea.

00:50:21 ◼   ► So I think that there was something there at that time

00:50:25 ◼   ► for a product, but it feels to me like what happened

00:50:29 ◼   ► is at some point, and maybe it was there at the inception

00:50:31 ◼   ► or maybe it was shortly thereafter,

00:50:34 ◼   ► there ended up being a group of people inside Apple

00:50:37 ◼   ► who really believed that the only way that NAPLCAR made sense

00:50:41 ◼   ► was that if it was fully autonomous,

00:50:44 ◼   ► that it was that they were on the edge

00:50:45 ◼   ► perhaps of a breakthrough, somebody in the industry,

00:50:48 ◼   ► like Elon Musk always talked about

00:50:49 ◼   ► that it was right around the corner.

00:50:50 ◼   ► That has proven to not be true at all

00:50:52 ◼   ► and that it's still around the corner for him

00:50:55 ◼   ► and it may always be around the corner.

00:50:57 ◼   ► But we ended up doing, we did an episode called,

00:51:02 ◼   ► what is it, "Hey, car, stop."

00:51:04 ◼   ► Yeah, something like that.

00:51:05 ◼   ► Which I looked at it and made me laugh.

00:51:07 ◼   ► That was a funny, like using Siri to tell your car to stop.

00:51:10 ◼   ► About the moment when Mark Gurman came out much later,

00:51:13 ◼   ► he came out with a report that they were still

00:51:15 ◼   ► hanging onto this idea, which was they designed a car

00:51:18 ◼   ► that wasn't like a car.

00:51:19 ◼   ► It was like a little mobile salon that you sat in

00:51:22 ◼   ► and it didn't have a steering wheel and they wanted it.

00:51:26 ◼   ► And this was apparently Johnny Ive's vision was they,

00:51:30 ◼   ► let's just make a car that has no steering wheel.

00:51:32 ◼   ► It's super minimal, sounds like Johnny Ive.

00:51:35 ◼   ► And to me, this is the moment where it got off track

00:51:38 ◼   ► because the, I admire the ambition,

00:51:43 ◼   ► but I would also say the arrogance of thinking

00:51:45 ◼   ► we're gonna be able to make a car

00:51:47 ◼   ► that never needs to be driven.

00:51:48 ◼   ► Like we're gonna solve it so completely

00:51:51 ◼   ► that we can throw out the idea of a car.

00:51:53 ◼   ► And then probably if Apple's gonna make a car,

00:51:56 ◼   ► it must be the perfect magical car

00:51:58 ◼   ► that drives itself everywhere.

00:52:00 ◼   ► And I don't know, I mean, you gotta really believe in that

00:52:04 ◼   ► because for me, it felt obvious that you always

00:52:08 ◼   ► are gonna need to be able to drive your car, right?

00:52:10 ◼   ► Not all scenarios are going to be handled

00:52:12 ◼   ► by the magic computer.

00:52:14 ◼   ► I think the moment that the group of people who decided,

00:52:18 ◼   ► no, the Apple car project is this aspirational project

00:52:21 ◼   ► about something that will absolutely be self-driving

00:52:23 ◼   ► all the time and we're gonna just bet on that.

00:52:27 ◼   ► And in their diagram, there's just a big cloud

00:52:29 ◼   ► with a question mark there because nobody had done it

00:52:32 ◼   ► or has done it.

00:52:33 ◼   ► And worth a try, right?

00:52:35 ◼   ► Could be revolutionary.

00:52:36 ◼   ► But the way that Tesla always approached it was,

00:52:39 ◼   ► we're gonna make a car and yeah, we're confident

00:52:42 ◼   ► that it'll be self-driving next year.

00:52:43 ◼   ► And they keep saying that, but like in the meantime,

00:52:46 ◼   ► we made a car that's like a computer car

00:52:48 ◼   ► and it's got driver assist features.

00:52:50 ◼   ► And it's got all these nice things about it

00:52:52 ◼   ► and it's electric.

00:52:54 ◼   ► And the other guys are still like a decade behind.

00:52:56 ◼   ► So they could have done that.

00:52:58 ◼   ► And then like a vision pro, and this is the thing,

00:53:02 ◼   ► like the vision pro, it feels very much like

00:53:05 ◼   ► there's a contingent inside Apple that is like,

00:53:07 ◼   ► don't ship it until it's perfect.

00:53:08 ◼   ► And so for the vision pro was like,

00:53:11 ◼   ► there was that story about how there's a contingent

00:53:13 ◼   ► inside of Apple of designers, especially that were like,

00:53:16 ◼   ► no, no, no, if you can't make AR glasses, just don't ship it.

00:53:20 ◼   ► And Apple's like, Apple executives were like,

00:53:22 ◼   ► no, no, we're gonna ship vision pro.

00:53:25 ◼   ► And then iterate, you ship it and then you iterate.

00:53:27 ◼   ► It seems like with a car at some point,

00:53:30 ◼   ► the argument to not ship something

00:53:32 ◼   ► that is not the magical perfect future was one.

00:53:37 ◼   ► And so they changed into this entire project contingent

00:53:42 ◼   ► on full self-driving all the time, no steering wheel,

00:53:45 ◼   ► which I mean, I just took one look at that report

00:53:49 ◼   ► and I was like, well, that's literally never gonna happen.

00:53:51 ◼   ► That was the moment where I went from,

00:53:52 ◼   ► I'm open-minded about this.

00:53:54 ◼   ► There's an interesting potential here to what are they doing?

00:53:57 ◼   ► And many years had passed since then.

00:53:59 ◼   ► And so when they finally, a couple of years ago,

00:54:00 ◼   ► apparently refactored this whole thing and said, no,

00:54:02 ◼   ► why don't we try to ship something that's like a Tesla?

00:54:05 ◼   ► Like the moment had passed, like there was a moment,

00:54:09 ◼   ► like 2014, you could have made something by 2019, 2020

00:54:14 ◼   ► that would have been in the market

00:54:15 ◼   ► and would have sort of like defined

00:54:17 ◼   ► what a modern computery car was

00:54:19 ◼   ► and maybe had some wizzy Apple features

00:54:20 ◼   ► that people have been like, oh, Apple really got this,

00:54:23 ◼   ► watch out Tesla, watch out other new people,

00:54:25 ◼   ► Apple really figured it out.

00:54:27 ◼   ► But instead they put their money on a breakthrough

00:54:29 ◼   ► that never came.

00:54:30 ◼   ► And by the time that they decided to refactor back

00:54:32 ◼   ► to the other thing, it was too late.

00:54:34 ◼   ► And I think that fundamentally

00:54:36 ◼   ► that is not how you should design a product.

00:54:38 ◼   ► You should design a product based on practicality

00:54:42 ◼   ► and then work towards your breakthrough.

00:54:44 ◼   ► And that's not what they did.

00:54:45 ◼   ► And so I think there was a root of a good idea 10 years ago.

00:54:50 ◼   ► And by the time that they got to the realization

00:54:53 ◼   ► they weren't gonna ship their unrealistic idea,

00:54:56 ◼   ► it was too late 'cause like today,

00:54:57 ◼   ► I don't feel like if Apple shipped a Tesla like car

00:55:00 ◼   ► and I think this is the decision they made

00:55:02 ◼   ► that it would make a difference.

00:55:03 ◼   ► Like it's too late.

00:55:04 ◼   ► The car makers have all gotten

00:55:07 ◼   ► into the computer car thing now.

00:55:09 ◼   ► Computer cars, even non-electric cars are computer cars now

00:55:12 ◼   ► and then there are more electric cars too.

00:55:13 ◼   ► So like the moment has passed.

00:55:16 ◼   ► So that's my thought about it is I do not agree

00:55:21 ◼   ► that Apple should never have investigated this.

00:55:24 ◼   ► I also don't believe when people are like,

00:55:26 ◼   ► oh, think of the kinds of products Apple makes.

00:55:28 ◼   ► This is so different.

00:55:29 ◼   ► I've seen enough of Apple shifting gears.

00:55:32 ◼   ► Like Apple can do what they want.

00:55:33 ◼   ► Apple retail was something everybody said couldn't happen.

00:55:37 ◼   ► 'Cause can you imagine Apple having like a retail store

00:55:40 ◼   ► with employees all over the world and a bunch of different,

00:55:43 ◼   ► and they're like hundreds of stores.

00:55:44 ◼   ► I'm like, well, it was important to them

00:55:46 ◼   ► and they made it happen.

00:55:47 ◼   ► Like I think if a car had been important to them,

00:55:51 ◼   ► they would have made it happen

00:55:52 ◼   ► and it would not have been unreasonable

00:55:53 ◼   ► to make a computer car that was not made of magic,

00:55:57 ◼   ► but that was actually realistic and then iterate from there.

00:55:59 ◼   ► But for whatever reason in the mid 2010s,

00:56:02 ◼   ► they listened to the people who said,

00:56:05 ◼   ► let's put all our chips down on full autonomy

00:56:08 ◼   ► and it's not a thing that they could do.

00:56:11 ◼   ► - Yeah, something you're saying a minute ago

00:56:13 ◼   ► seemed like there's like the thing,

00:56:18 ◼   ► the ideology that Apple has didn't align with reality,

00:56:22 ◼   ► which is like, they like to try and have their thing, right?

00:56:26 ◼   ► Like we've done, you know, this product market exists,

00:56:29 ◼   ► but we've done our thing that makes our version better.

00:56:34 ◼   ► And like realistically, a car is so big and complicated

00:56:38 ◼   ► that if they were gonna try and wait for their thing,

00:56:41 ◼   ► which was maybe for self-driving,

00:56:43 ◼   ► like that was a bad place to start, like in hindsight,

00:56:47 ◼   ► where really what they should have tried to do

00:56:49 ◼   ► was make the best version they could of the current thing,

00:56:53 ◼   ► that as you say, like impresses on,

00:56:55 ◼   ► like it has this feature and that feature and this feature

00:56:57 ◼   ► and it's nice and it looks good and like it has lots

00:57:00 ◼   ► of little bits rather than they're like,

00:57:03 ◼   ► we've transformed how cars work, here it is,

00:57:06 ◼   ► because just getting to the point

00:57:08 ◼   ► where they had a good enough version of the current thing

00:57:12 ◼   ► was a big job.

00:57:14 ◼   ► And one of the things that you question in your piece,

00:57:17 ◼   ► which again, I think like in hindsight,

00:57:18 ◼   ► it was probably the way to go,

00:57:19 ◼   ► is why didn't they just buy a car company?

00:57:22 ◼   ► Like if they would have bought a car company,

00:57:24 ◼   ► they would have been able to leapfrog all the way

00:57:26 ◼   ► to we have a car, now we can put our stuff on top.

00:57:31 ◼   ► - Yeah, they, I think a lot of that

00:57:34 ◼   ► is not invented here syndrome, right?

00:57:36 ◼   ► Which is just like, why would we buy a car company?

00:57:38 ◼   ► We're Apple, we can just do it.

00:57:40 ◼   ► Which in hindsight, yeah,

00:57:42 ◼   ► they absolutely could have done that.

00:57:44 ◼   ► There weren't very many car companies like right

00:57:46 ◼   ► at the start, there was really just Tesla.

00:57:49 ◼   ► Apple could have bought Tesla, but-

00:57:50 ◼   ► - Over that 10 year span.

00:57:52 ◼   ► (laughs)

00:57:53 ◼   ► - But over that 10 year span, yes.

00:57:55 ◼   ► I think, and I think the problem was the timing, right?

00:57:57 ◼   ► By the time that they're doing Rivian and Lucid

00:58:00 ◼   ► and all of these other like electric car startups,

00:58:05 ◼   ► some of them started up by car companies,

00:58:07 ◼   ► but some of them were on the outside.

00:58:09 ◼   ► - Or even, like a Kia or what,

00:58:14 ◼   ► they could have bought a company of that size

00:58:15 ◼   ► if they wanted to.

00:58:17 ◼   ► - I mean, Apple could have done a strategic investment

00:58:19 ◼   ► with a traditional big car company,

00:58:21 ◼   ► but I think that one of the electric car startups

00:58:22 ◼   ► would have been the thing to do.

00:58:23 ◼   ► But at that point, not only did they have

00:58:25 ◼   ► the not invented here syndrome,

00:58:26 ◼   ► but they were deep in the,

00:58:28 ◼   ► they were very high on their own supply

00:58:31 ◼   ► of magical self-driving car.

00:58:33 ◼   ► And I think that's, look, I'll just come out and say it.

00:58:36 ◼   ► Especially since Trip Mickel, my favorite author,

00:58:39 ◼   ► co-byline the story about this in the New York Times.

00:58:41 ◼   ► And Trip, if you don't remember,

00:58:43 ◼   ► wrote that book that Mike liked and that I didn't like,

00:58:46 ◼   ► that he had lots of designer sources.

00:58:48 ◼   ► And it was like Apple lost the soul of its company

00:58:50 ◼   ► when it stopped listening to its designers.

00:58:52 ◼   ► And I would argue that not only were the,

00:58:53 ◼   ► according to reports, the designers behind

00:58:55 ◼   ► the ridiculous argument to not ship the Vision Pro

00:58:57 ◼   ► and instead just wait for the future

00:58:59 ◼   ► when magic AR glasses would happen,

00:59:01 ◼   ► I think that the way that I read the reports

00:59:04 ◼   ► about this story is that it was that same group of people

00:59:06 ◼   ► led by Johnny Ive who said, "No, no, no,

00:59:08 ◼   ► "let's not make a regular car.

00:59:10 ◼   ► "Let's make an impossible car

00:59:11 ◼   ► "that will only work with perfect technology,

00:59:13 ◼   ► "because we have faith that the perfect technology

00:59:15 ◼   ► "will come along," and they destroyed the project.

00:59:17 ◼   ► At that point, I think the project was never gonna work.

00:59:20 ◼   ► And I guess the answer is, well, yeah,

00:59:23 ◼   ► but what if there was a breakthrough?

00:59:24 ◼   ► And I would say it's irresponsible to design a product

00:59:26 ◼   ► for a breakthrough that hasn't happened yet.

00:59:29 ◼   ► You can't, it's science fiction.

00:59:31 ◼   ► You're making sketches for a movie.

00:59:34 ◼   ► You're designing props at that point.

00:59:35 ◼   ► You have to build a real product.

00:59:37 ◼   ► This is a fundamental, dare I say it,

00:59:40 ◼   ► Steve Jobs kind of thing of a product,

00:59:42 ◼   ► you gotta build a real product.

00:59:43 ◼   ► What can we build today?

00:59:45 ◼   ► Not if we invent a thing that's never been invented before,

00:59:50 ◼   ► what product would we make?

00:59:53 ◼   ► And I think that that attitude, whoever it came from,

00:59:57 ◼   ► but like I said, my strong sense,

01:00:00 ◼   ► at least from some of the reports,

01:00:01 ◼   ► is that it was a lot of people in the design group,

01:00:03 ◼   ► especially, who wanted to design a magic car,

01:00:07 ◼   ► and it destroyed the product,

01:00:08 ◼   ► 'cause that's not how you make that product.

01:00:09 ◼   ► So I think by the time they could have said,

01:00:11 ◼   ► why don't we just buy Lucid or we'll buy Rivian

01:00:15 ◼   ► in the early days of that company?

01:00:18 ◼   ► I think they were too far down the road of like,

01:00:21 ◼   ► well, yeah, but we hired all our own people

01:00:23 ◼   ► and we're working on this project

01:00:24 ◼   ► and we're over here doing that.

01:00:26 ◼   ► But yeah, in hindsight,

01:00:27 ◼   ► they would have been much better off

01:00:28 ◼   ► doing something like that.

01:00:29 ◼   ► As it is, I think it's okay.

01:00:30 ◼   ► I think that the moment has passed.

01:00:31 ◼   ► I think that I honestly don't think Apple has much

01:00:34 ◼   ► to contribute to the car industry now.

01:00:37 ◼   ► Maybe that new car play,

01:00:40 ◼   ► again, it would be nice to see more uptake

01:00:42 ◼   ► because that would be a nicer thing.

01:00:43 ◼   ► - That's what they have to contribute.

01:00:45 ◼   ► That is Apple's genuine contribution.

01:00:48 ◼   ► Apple does not need to make an actual car.

01:00:52 ◼   ► They should try the best they can

01:00:54 ◼   ► to make operating systems for cars.

01:00:56 ◼   ► That is their best contribution

01:00:59 ◼   ► to people driving in their automobiles.

01:01:02 ◼   ► I think that is the best thing.

01:01:04 ◼   ► Kind of wrapping this back around

01:01:05 ◼   ► to start again a little bit,

01:01:07 ◼   ► 'cause I kind of threw us off track with the buying part.

01:01:10 ◼   ► Me personally, I'm actually like,

01:01:13 ◼   ► I'm hearing a lot of people saying

01:01:14 ◼   ► like they were stupid to ever try this,

01:01:16 ◼   ► they spent all this money,

01:01:17 ◼   ► they spent all this time.

01:01:18 ◼   ► From my perspective, it's just like,

01:01:20 ◼   ► I mean, they have all the money in the world, right?

01:01:22 ◼   ► Like, I'm happy that they took the time

01:01:27 ◼   ► because I agree that it was a good thing

01:01:28 ◼   ► for them to start looking at, right?

01:01:30 ◼   ► At the time that they started looking at it,

01:01:32 ◼   ► this is an interesting thought.

01:01:34 ◼   ► Let's look at this, right?

01:01:35 ◼   ► And they started looking at it.

01:01:37 ◼   ► The fact that they spent 10 years and billions of dollars,

01:01:40 ◼   ► like for me, I can kind of like,

01:01:42 ◼   ► for them, so what, right?

01:01:44 ◼   ► Like they have the money to spend on something like this.

01:01:48 ◼   ► They should investigate everything they possibly can.

01:01:51 ◼   ► This unfortunately was inherently just an expensive,

01:01:53 ◼   ► one of these things to try and look at.

01:01:56 ◼   ► But then they decided,

01:01:58 ◼   ► they made the decision that that didn't matter,

01:02:01 ◼   ► that they were happy to just cut their losses.

01:02:04 ◼   ► And I think that that is a positive.

01:02:07 ◼   ► - I agree, it should have happened a long time ago,

01:02:10 ◼   ► but I do appreciate the discipline

01:02:12 ◼   ► that finally was applied.

01:02:14 ◼   ► And it sounds like the way it worked

01:02:16 ◼   ► is that somebody like Tim Cook said,

01:02:18 ◼   ► I need a go or no go on the car.

01:02:21 ◼   ► And that's when they refactored is,

01:02:22 ◼   ► well, what could we ship

01:02:23 ◼   ► instead of what do we dream about shipping?

01:02:26 ◼   ► And then they looked at it

01:02:27 ◼   ► and I think made the right decision,

01:02:28 ◼   ► which is we don't have anything to offer here,

01:02:30 ◼   ► which is a huge thing from a corporate ego perspective

01:02:32 ◼   ► to say it's not worth it for us to go down this route.

01:02:36 ◼   ► But I think that that is where they ended up.

01:02:39 ◼   ► But I, so I think they should have killed it sooner.

01:02:43 ◼   ► I think that they should not have listened to the people

01:02:44 ◼   ► who said let's design something for technology

01:02:46 ◼   ► that doesn't exist.

01:02:47 ◼   ► I think that was an enormous mistake early on.

01:02:50 ◼   ► I wanted to mention,

01:02:50 ◼   ► 'cause you and I talked about this in the early days,

01:02:52 ◼   ► especially of upgrade a lot,

01:02:55 ◼   ► which is this is the period,

01:02:57 ◼   ► so Steve Jobs has died.

01:02:58 ◼   ► Tim Cook is new to the job.

01:03:02 ◼   ► The perception is, oh no, he's not Steve Jobs,

01:03:05 ◼   ► which he's absolutely not.

01:03:07 ◼   ► This is an era where because Steve is gone

01:03:11 ◼   ► and Tim is new and Johnny Ive is still there

01:03:14 ◼   ► and Johnny Ive is not super,

01:03:17 ◼   ► he's burning out or if not burned out, he's bored.

01:03:22 ◼   ► He, they're keeping him around.

01:03:24 ◼   ► And I remember saying this back in the time,

01:03:27 ◼   ► like this is the deal is Johnny will pay you anything

01:03:30 ◼   ► and you could do whatever you want to stay

01:03:31 ◼   ► because Wall Street is really nervous

01:03:33 ◼   ► about a huge brain drain at Apple

01:03:35 ◼   ► and that there's nobody who's designing these products.

01:03:37 ◼   ► And so they kept Johnny around,

01:03:39 ◼   ► I think way longer than he was necessary

01:03:42 ◼   ► and way longer than he was contributing

01:03:45 ◼   ► necessary from a product design perspective.

01:03:49 ◼   ► He was necessary for like an optics perspective,

01:03:51 ◼   ► but I think it was a sham.

01:03:52 ◼   ► Anyway, so this product really,

01:03:56 ◼   ► even at the time, didn't we hear

01:03:59 ◼   ► like Johnny really is interested in cars.

01:04:01 ◼   ► And so when he was told he could kind of like design

01:04:03 ◼   ► a future car, he perked up,

01:04:04 ◼   ► like it feels a little bit like that too,

01:04:06 ◼   ► that part of the original sin here.

01:04:08 ◼   ► - Not dissimilar to some of the watch stuff, right?

01:04:11 ◼   ► Just like you like watches or that you make a bald watch.

01:04:12 ◼   ► - He likes watches, he likes cars.

01:04:14 ◼   ► He's a rich Englishman.

01:04:16 ◼   ► Let's give him things that he can appreciate.

01:04:19 ◼   ► So I think that was probably part of it too

01:04:22 ◼   ► in terms of internal politics.

01:04:23 ◼   ► I don't know, but that's just my guess

01:04:25 ◼   ► based on the reports is that that was some of it.

01:04:27 ◼   ► - But also like from what you were saying

01:04:29 ◼   ► a minute ago as well, like Tim was new

01:04:34 ◼   ► and it was pressure on him.

01:04:36 ◼   ► And so I expect he was just much more like,

01:04:39 ◼   ► well, I've got to do something.

01:04:41 ◼   ► So like, I'll green light this and this and this and this,

01:04:44 ◼   ► and we'll see what works.

01:04:46 ◼   ► And I think what we've ended up with--

01:04:47 ◼   ► - Let Johnny do what he wants.

01:04:48 ◼   ► - Is a watch and a VR headset.

01:04:50 ◼   ► These are the projects that probably these three

01:04:54 ◼   ► were all started not within two different time period

01:04:58 ◼   ► to each other, probably even a few years.

01:05:00 ◼   ► - I think that's true.

01:05:01 ◼   ► And I mean, to be clear,

01:05:03 ◼   ► I think we can't afford to lose this person.

01:05:07 ◼   ► So let's pay them a lot of money

01:05:08 ◼   ► and let them do whatever they want.

01:05:09 ◼   ► While not great for your organization as a whole,

01:05:13 ◼   ► I totally understand why that decision might make sense

01:05:16 ◼   ► in the moment. - For that point in time.

01:05:17 ◼   ► - Exactly, exactly.

01:05:19 ◼   ► And then you have to unwind it.

01:05:21 ◼   ► And it does have the danger of something like that

01:05:23 ◼   ► is that it distorts things where your organization

01:05:26 ◼   ► makes decisions it would not normally have made

01:05:28 ◼   ► because you're trying to appease the person

01:05:30 ◼   ► who you're keeping around for other reasons.

01:05:32 ◼   ► And I will say the salon car

01:05:36 ◼   ► and the solid gold Apple watch (laughs)

01:05:40 ◼   ► are examples, I think, of distortion happening

01:05:44 ◼   ► because Johnny Ive was unkillable

01:05:47 ◼   ► and they just literally had to keep him around.

01:05:51 ◼   ► - But the solid gold Apple watch

01:05:52 ◼   ► was part of the Apple watch,

01:05:54 ◼   ► which has been a big success.

01:05:56 ◼   ► Like it took time.

01:05:57 ◼   ► - Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:05:58 ◼   ► But that feels, that always felt like a little like,

01:06:00 ◼   ► why did they do that?

01:06:01 ◼   ► And I was like, well, I think Johnny wanted to work

01:06:04 ◼   ► with those materials.

01:06:05 ◼   ► And again, I don't think it was a complete wasteland,

01:06:07 ◼   ► but I think that the reason that a project like this

01:06:10 ◼   ► exists in part is probably to make somebody like Johnny Ive

01:06:13 ◼   ► excited about something when you're trying to keep him.

01:06:15 ◼   ► And then it builds up a momentum

01:06:17 ◼   ► and you've hired all these people

01:06:19 ◼   ► and you think it's always...

01:06:20 ◼   ► Just fundamentally, I keep coming back to the fact

01:06:23 ◼   ► if as the report suggests,

01:06:25 ◼   ► they designed this without a steering wheel,

01:06:27 ◼   ► they are counting on technology to be invented

01:06:30 ◼   ► that hasn't been invented yet.

01:06:32 ◼   ► And that is super dangerous,

01:06:35 ◼   ► which doesn't mean you don't do it for a while,

01:06:38 ◼   ► but I would argue that the right way,

01:06:39 ◼   ► the Apple-y way to do it would be to build,

01:06:42 ◼   ► okay, we're gonna do cars

01:06:44 ◼   ► and we wanna get to full self-driving.

01:06:45 ◼   ► Well, where do we start?

01:06:46 ◼   ► Well, let's ship a car.

01:06:47 ◼   ► And how do we do that?

01:06:49 ◼   ► And then you ship a car.

01:06:50 ◼   ► And instead at some point they're like, no, no, no,

01:06:51 ◼   ► we're gonna just design it so that we have to wait

01:06:55 ◼   ► for that feature to come available.

01:06:57 ◼   ► And that just seems like a mistake.

01:06:58 ◼   ► Work on that feature, put a lot of R&D into that feature,

01:07:02 ◼   ► but start shipping products

01:07:03 ◼   ► because I feel very strongly like with the Vision Pro,

01:07:06 ◼   ► once it's out there, you learn and you grow

01:07:09 ◼   ► and you can still be hanging your hopes

01:07:10 ◼   ► on full self-driving,

01:07:11 ◼   ► but you gotta ship a product and learn and iterate.

01:07:15 ◼   ► And they didn't seem to want to do that.

01:07:18 ◼   ► I've heard a lot of people talk about spinoff tech.

01:07:21 ◼   ► It'll never be worth the money they put in.

01:07:22 ◼   ► Whatever spinoff tech they come out of this

01:07:24 ◼   ► will never be worth the money they put into it,

01:07:25 ◼   ► but there will be spinoff.

01:07:27 ◼   ► - AI and that would be great.

01:07:29 ◼   ► - Yeah, computer vision that has value, right?

01:07:31 ◼   ► There's a lot of things where you're taking input

01:07:32 ◼   ► from cameras and then trying to process it.

01:07:34 ◼   ► A lot of that is using machine learning stuff.

01:07:36 ◼   ► Like they will pick over the body for parts, right?

01:07:41 ◼   ► But they're not gonna be able to use

01:07:42 ◼   ► all the parts of the Buffalo.

01:07:44 ◼   ► There's gonna be a bunch of stuff left behind.

01:07:46 ◼   ► It's just like not, right?

01:07:48 ◼   ► It's never, you're just making,

01:07:50 ◼   ► you're making what you can out of the issue.

01:07:53 ◼   ► And yeah, there may be some great breakthrough in there.

01:07:56 ◼   ► - You didn't need to build a car chassis

01:07:59 ◼   ► to have someone come up with better LIDAR technology, right?

01:08:03 ◼   ► Like that was not needed.

01:08:05 ◼   ► - Exactly, and it's not worth $10 billion.

01:08:07 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's what you did.

01:08:08 ◼   ► And as well, like there are obviously good

01:08:10 ◼   ► kind of parallels to the Vision Pro in all of this.

01:08:17 ◼   ► Like part of it is that they didn't abandon the Vision Pro.

01:08:21 ◼   ► So I think that it says something about their commitment.

01:08:24 ◼   ► These are products that maybe were going on at the same time

01:08:26 ◼   ► took a lot of money, took a lot of effort.

01:08:28 ◼   ► But then also going back to what you're saying, right?

01:08:31 ◼   ► Like we all know what the Vision Pro is.

01:08:34 ◼   ► It is the first step towards Apple glasses.

01:08:37 ◼   ► And they think maybe they can only get to glasses

01:08:40 ◼   ► by having this, but it requires starting somewhere.

01:08:45 ◼   ► And they started somewhere with the Vision Pro in public.

01:08:51 ◼   ► What can we actually make and ship?

01:08:53 ◼   ► And they've made that and they're moving forward with that.

01:08:56 ◼   ► And it could maybe one day lead us to something else.

01:08:59 ◼   ► - Yeah, at some point, and I'm not advocating

01:09:01 ◼   ► for shipping a product that's not viable,

01:09:03 ◼   ► but at some point you do need to,

01:09:04 ◼   ► I think it clarifies the mind

01:09:06 ◼   ► to work on a product that's shippable.

01:09:08 ◼   ► And I come back to, again, the moment of saying,

01:09:13 ◼   ► we're gonna invest a lot of money creating something

01:09:16 ◼   ► that requires a breakthrough

01:09:18 ◼   ► that we haven't broken through on.

01:09:20 ◼   ► I think it was a bad idea.

01:09:22 ◼   ► And that's why I was so offended

01:09:23 ◼   ► when I read that Mark Gurman report fairly late in the game,

01:09:25 ◼   ► 2019, something like that,

01:09:27 ◼   ► saying they were still designing a car

01:09:29 ◼   ► without a steering wheel.

01:09:30 ◼   ► And it was like, what are you doing?

01:09:32 ◼   ► Because if Elon Musk had said that,

01:09:35 ◼   ► Tesla would have just gone out of business, right?

01:09:38 ◼   ► And this is a guy who was convinced or at least said,

01:09:41 ◼   ► I don't know if he was actually convinced,

01:09:42 ◼   ► but keeps saying full self-driving

01:09:45 ◼   ► is right around the corner.

01:09:46 ◼   ► But he shipped cars with steering wheels,

01:09:49 ◼   ► sometimes bad steering wheels, but steering wheels,

01:09:52 ◼   ► because he also wanted to sell cars and make money,

01:09:57 ◼   ► no matter whatever his confidence was

01:09:59 ◼   ► on full self-driving software.

01:10:01 ◼   ► So I don't know, it was,

01:10:04 ◼   ► I don't think that it was a mistake from the beginning.

01:10:07 ◼   ► I think it got completely off track.

01:10:10 ◼   ► I think they should have killed it way sooner,

01:10:12 ◼   ► given that I'm glad that they killed it now,

01:10:15 ◼   ► because, and I'm glad that they apparently went

01:10:18 ◼   ► through the process of looking at everything

01:10:20 ◼   ► that they'd done and saying, can we ship something?

01:10:22 ◼   ► No, then let's kill it.

01:10:24 ◼   ► I think that that was the right thing to do.

01:10:25 ◼   ► I just think that they should have done it a lot sooner.

01:10:28 ◼   ► - This episode is brought to you by Squarespace,

01:10:33 ◼   ► the all-in-one platform for building your brand

01:10:35 ◼   ► and growing your business online.

01:10:37 ◼   ► With Squarespace, you can stand out from the crowd

01:10:39 ◼   ► of a beautiful website, engage directly with your audience

01:10:43 ◼   ► and sell anything, products, services,

01:10:45 ◼   ► even the content that you create.

01:10:47 ◼   ► Squarespace has everything you need all in one place.

01:10:50 ◼   ► It's so simple to get started.

01:10:52 ◼   ► Squarespace has designs like website template designs

01:10:55 ◼   ► for every single category of website, every use case.

01:10:58 ◼   ► And they're so easy to customize, update the content,

01:11:02 ◼   ► update the look and the features that you need

01:11:04 ◼   ► to fit the unique needs of the website you want to make.

01:11:07 ◼   ► You can make any Squarespace template, do whatever you want.

01:11:09 ◼   ► So your idea, brand or business

01:11:11 ◼   ► will stand out on every device.

01:11:13 ◼   ► This is all thanks to Fluid Engine.

01:11:15 ◼   ► Squarespace's drag and drop technology

01:11:17 ◼   ► for customizing every design detail of your website

01:11:21 ◼   ► works with both desktop or mobile.

01:11:23 ◼   ► You can stretch your imagination online with Fluid Engine.

01:11:26 ◼   ► It's built in and ready to go on any new Squarespace site.

01:11:30 ◼   ► And talking about the functionality to fit your needs,

01:11:32 ◼   ► if you want to sell your goods,

01:11:34 ◼   ► whether it's physical or digital,

01:11:35 ◼   ► they have all of the tools that you need.

01:11:37 ◼   ► It's very easy to just add online store functionality

01:11:40 ◼   ► to your Squarespace website.

01:11:42 ◼   ► And you can keep track of everything

01:11:43 ◼   ► with Squarespace's built-in analytics.

01:11:45 ◼   ► You can learn where your site visitors are coming from,

01:11:48 ◼   ► where your sales are coming from

01:11:49 ◼   ► and analyze which channels are most effective for you.

01:11:52 ◼   ► You can use this to improve your website

01:11:54 ◼   ► and to maybe build a marketing plan of your own.

01:11:56 ◼   ► Whenever I want to put something online,

01:11:58 ◼   ► I just want to go straight to having the website.

01:12:00 ◼   ► Squarespace is the easiest way to do this.

01:12:03 ◼   ► I've been using Squarespace for various projects

01:12:05 ◼   ► for like 15 years now.

01:12:07 ◼   ► And this is the reason why I find it so simple to use.

01:12:09 ◼   ► They have all of the features that I want

01:12:11 ◼   ► and they're always making updates and improvements

01:12:13 ◼   ► to the platform that I get to take advantage of

01:12:15 ◼   ► and I don't need to do any of the work for.

01:12:18 ◼   ► Go and check it out today for yourself

01:12:19 ◼   ► by going to squarespace.com/upgrade.

01:12:22 ◼   ► You can sign up for a free trial, try everything out,

01:12:24 ◼   ► build your entire website.

01:12:26 ◼   ► You only need to sign up

01:12:27 ◼   ► when you are ready to launch it to the world.

01:12:29 ◼   ► And when you do, if you go to squarespace.com/upgrade

01:12:32 ◼   ► and use the code upgrade at checkout,

01:12:34 ◼   ► you'll save 10% of your first purchase

01:12:36 ◼   ► of a website or domain.

01:12:38 ◼   ► That is squarespace.com/upgrade and the code upgrade

01:12:41 ◼   ► when you decide to sign up to get 10% of your first purchase

01:12:45 ◼   ► and show your support for the show.

01:12:46 ◼   ► Our thanks to Squarespace for their support of this show

01:12:49 ◼   ► and all of Relay FM.

01:12:50 ◼   ► It is time for Ask Upgrade Questions

01:12:55 ◼   ► to finish out today's show.

01:12:57 ◼   ► And Adam starts with a month in,

01:13:00 ◼   ► how much are you using Vision Pro on an average day?

01:13:03 ◼   ► - I don't, I hate these questions.

01:13:08 ◼   ► I don't have an average day.

01:13:09 ◼   ► I don't have an average day.

01:13:10 ◼   ► - Okay.

01:13:11 ◼   ► - I don't have an average day.

01:13:12 ◼   ► Like I record part of a podcast.

01:13:14 ◼   ► - Would you like me to cut this question?

01:13:16 ◼   ► - I write part of an article.

01:13:18 ◼   ► No, I think it's fine.

01:13:19 ◼   ► I just, I don't have an average day.

01:13:23 ◼   ► I will give you an example of a day,

01:13:25 ◼   ► which is on Friday, I was trying to write a column

01:13:29 ◼   ► that was my Apple car column.

01:13:31 ◼   ► And I was struggling with focus and I drank some tea

01:13:36 ◼   ► and I sat down at the computer in the back bedroom.

01:13:39 ◼   ► And I just couldn't, I was like trying to get going

01:13:44 ◼   ► and I was doing like all the avoidance things

01:13:47 ◼   ► of like, I'm just not ready to write this yet.

01:13:49 ◼   ► And then I sat down on the couch with a Bluetooth keyboard

01:13:51 ◼   ► and the Vision Pro and brought up Runestone

01:13:54 ◼   ► and wrote the whole article.

01:13:56 ◼   ► So as an example of a way that I'm using Vision Pro

01:14:00 ◼   ► on a day to do a task, I also watched half of,

01:14:05 ◼   ► I ran out of time, half of Dune part one in 3D

01:14:09 ◼   ► on the Vision Pro because that looked awesome.

01:14:12 ◼   ► And I wanted to rewatch it before I saw Dune part two,

01:14:15 ◼   ► which I saw this weekend and is excellent,

01:14:18 ◼   ► but I didn't get to watch all of Dune part one,

01:14:20 ◼   ► but that was a beautiful thing.

01:14:22 ◼   ► And Lauren was at work.

01:14:23 ◼   ► And so that was a thing I could do that didn't,

01:14:26 ◼   ► that wasn't closing her out.

01:14:28 ◼   ► So I don't have a number of like average,

01:14:31 ◼   ► but I can tell you, I do some writing in it.

01:14:36 ◼   ► I do some sort of, as Mike said, last time noodling around

01:14:39 ◼   ► of like, I'm checking on this and I'm checking on that

01:14:41 ◼   ► to try and, and then I'm also using it for things

01:14:44 ◼   ► that are not normal use, which is like trying apps

01:14:47 ◼   ► that come out and seeing what they're like

01:14:49 ◼   ► and seeing how they're used.

01:14:50 ◼   ► So have I found like a routine?

01:14:52 ◼   ► I haven't.

01:14:53 ◼   ► - Maybe a better way to ask this question is like,

01:14:55 ◼   ► are you finding yourself using it on a daily basis

01:15:00 ◼   ► or somewhat daily basis?

01:15:02 ◼   ► And it sounds like the answer is mostly yes.

01:15:05 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's certainly not every day,

01:15:08 ◼   ► but many days.

01:15:13 ◼   ► And it, again, depending on what I'm trying to do

01:15:17 ◼   ► and trying to find the places where it fits in my life

01:15:21 ◼   ► and the places where it doesn't.

01:15:22 ◼   ► And the two places now that I found it is viable

01:15:26 ◼   ► are another place that's an alternate way

01:15:31 ◼   ► to get my brain out of its, you know,

01:15:34 ◼   ► whatever space it's in for, and focus for writing.

01:15:37 ◼   ► Because as many, you can put a million windows around you,

01:15:40 ◼   ► but you can also just put one window

01:15:42 ◼   ► and put an environment up or even not have an environment up

01:15:45 ◼   ► and just have the one window and focus on it.

01:15:46 ◼   ► And it's, I find that pretty useful.

01:15:49 ◼   ► What about you?

01:15:50 ◼   ► - Yeah, I would say like, I keep my vision pro at the studio

01:15:54 ◼   ► so I only use it on days when I'm here.

01:15:56 ◼   ► So just on work days.

01:15:58 ◼   ► And I find time to use it every day as part of my work day.

01:16:03 ◼   ► And it's very easy for me to do that

01:16:05 ◼   ► because of the idea of it's noodling around time.

01:16:07 ◼   ► And like, it's the computer that at the moment

01:16:10 ◼   ► I am enjoying the most of like.

01:16:12 ◼   ► - For the noodling.

01:16:13 ◼   ► - Because I have a list of things that I want to use.

01:16:16 ◼   ► Like, it's like, you know, like, oh, there's this new app.

01:16:18 ◼   ► Like, so that's part of noodling.

01:16:20 ◼   ► But also is just the kind of like,

01:16:22 ◼   ► I don't have a fixed piece of work

01:16:24 ◼   ► that I'm gonna do right now.

01:16:25 ◼   ► So I'm just gonna be bouncing around

01:16:27 ◼   ► from thing to thing for a little bit.

01:16:28 ◼   ► And that's great.

01:16:29 ◼   ► But also it is just like, I wanna just hang out for a bit.

01:16:33 ◼   ► It's perfect for that.

01:16:34 ◼   ► And it's like comfortable to use.

01:16:35 ◼   ► So at the moment I am very easily finding time

01:16:39 ◼   ► to use it every day.

01:16:40 ◼   ► I don't feel like I'm forcing myself to use it in that way.

01:16:44 ◼   ► I will give some real time follow up from Zach Hall

01:16:48 ◼   ► at 9to5Mac who has confirmed by talking to Apple

01:16:52 ◼   ► that Apple will indeed be adding

01:16:55 ◼   ► the second external monitor with lid closed feature

01:16:59 ◼   ► to the 14 inch MacBook Pro with M3 in a future software

01:17:03 ◼   ► update.

01:17:04 ◼   ► - So it is a software/firmware issue.

01:17:07 ◼   ► Not a like, this is the way we made the hardware

01:17:12 ◼   ► for the MacBook Air different.

01:17:13 ◼   ► It's good.

01:17:15 ◼   ► - It feels more like it is that they can update

01:17:17 ◼   ► the firmware with software, right?

01:17:18 ◼   ► Okay, I feel like it's probably what's happening.

01:17:20 ◼   ► As you say, it wasn't like, oh,

01:17:22 ◼   ► this has a second display controller

01:17:24 ◼   ► and the system on a chip or whatever.

01:17:25 ◼   ► - I would have asked Apple,

01:17:28 ◼   ► but I was doing a podcast.

01:17:29 ◼   ► - Indeed.

01:17:31 ◼   ► - Instead, but yeah.

01:17:32 ◼   ► Yep.

01:17:33 ◼   ► - Chris asks, when the time comes for Apple

01:17:35 ◼   ► to update their Mac accessories,

01:17:37 ◼   ► do you think they keep the Magic Mouse around?

01:17:41 ◼   ► - Yes.

01:17:42 ◼   ► - Yeah, you think so?

01:17:43 ◼   ► - I think so.

01:17:44 ◼   ► I think people use mice.

01:17:46 ◼   ► I don't, but people do.

01:17:47 ◼   ► And I think Apple is committed.

01:17:51 ◼   ► I mean, I'm sure they see the numbers,

01:17:53 ◼   ► but like I'm sure people buy an iMac

01:17:55 ◼   ► and they get it with a mouse, right?

01:17:57 ◼   ► I have a hard time envisioning them not offering a mouse.

01:18:01 ◼   ► I really do.

01:18:01 ◼   ► I get the, the argument is lots of people make mice

01:18:04 ◼   ► and that's true, but like, I don't know.

01:18:07 ◼   ► I think Apple will keep making one

01:18:08 ◼   ► because some people want it.

01:18:10 ◼   ► - I could see a world in which they're like,

01:18:15 ◼   ► you can use a mouse, we just don't make one.

01:18:18 ◼   ► Like I can see that world.

01:18:19 ◼   ► And the reason is this,

01:18:20 ◼   ► like some of the decisions they've made recently,

01:18:23 ◼   ► like Vision Pro, you can't use a mouse,

01:18:26 ◼   ► have to use a trackpad, like mice just don't work.

01:18:28 ◼   ► Stuff like that is like, they're very trackpad focused.

01:18:33 ◼   ► - Didn't I see that in the new beta,

01:18:35 ◼   ► the developer beta, you can use a mouse?

01:18:36 ◼   ► - Oh, really?

01:18:37 ◼   ► They've added that?

01:18:38 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:18:39 ◼   ► I don't use the developer beta.

01:18:40 ◼   ► So you can use mice now?

01:18:42 ◼   ► - I don't.

01:18:43 ◼   ► I thought I saw something about that, but I don't know.

01:18:45 ◼   ► I just, either way, I think they could drop the mouse.

01:18:53 ◼   ► I just don't think they will because people use mice.

01:18:56 ◼   ► So they'll offer it.

01:18:58 ◼   ► I doubt it will ever be innovated severely.

01:19:02 ◼   ► They might change where you plug it in,

01:19:04 ◼   ► but I don't think that that's what they're going for.

01:19:07 ◼   ► But I do think that they'll keep it around.

01:19:08 ◼   ► I just, I can see the scenario,

01:19:10 ◼   ► but I just don't think it'll happen.

01:19:12 ◼   ► - Well, we'll see.

01:19:14 ◼   ► What else have we got?

01:19:16 ◼   ► And Nathan- - Can that be a new segment?

01:19:18 ◼   ► Can that replace "Upshift" with like-

01:19:21 ◼   ► - Just mouse talk? - Mouse talk?

01:19:22 ◼   ► - Mouse talk?

01:19:23 ◼   ► The mouse is in the house or something like that?

01:19:27 ◼   ► - Mouse click?

01:19:28 ◼   ► - Mouse click?

01:19:29 ◼   ► It's the mouse time.

01:19:30 ◼   ► No, Nathan asks, "As CES, Belkin announced

01:19:33 ◼   ► Chi-2 magnetic battery packs."

01:19:35 ◼   ► I've also seen these from Anchor too.

01:19:37 ◼   ► "Do you think Apple's gonna rejoin the club

01:19:40 ◼   ► with their own USB-C MagSafe battery pack

01:19:43 ◼   ► or leave it to third-party accessory makers?"

01:19:47 ◼   ► - I have no opinion about this.

01:19:49 ◼   ► I've never used one of these products.

01:19:50 ◼   ► I don't particularly get them.

01:19:54 ◼   ► I'd say that since Apple, okay, here's my answer.

01:19:56 ◼   ► Since Apple's done it in the past,

01:19:57 ◼   ► when I thought, "Why would they do that?"

01:19:59 ◼   ► Then probably in the future, they'll also make them-

01:20:01 ◼   ► - I mean, it goes back to,

01:20:02 ◼   ► you just said that they make mice 'cause people use mice,

01:20:05 ◼   ► so they'll make mice.

01:20:06 ◼   ► So it'd be people use the battery packs

01:20:07 ◼   ► and have used Apple's cheap battery pack they had before

01:20:11 ◼   ► that they'd stopped making.

01:20:12 ◼   ► Will they make another one?

01:20:15 ◼   ► - It's not quite the same because if you buy an iMac,

01:20:17 ◼   ► you do need a pointing device to use it.

01:20:18 ◼   ► So they have to offer something to you

01:20:21 ◼   ► where a battery pack is optional.

01:20:22 ◼   ► But yeah, I feel like if they find that it's,

01:20:26 ◼   ► I mean, they did, I don't know.

01:20:28 ◼   ► I would say sure, why not?

01:20:30 ◼   ► Because they can make money at it, but it does seem,

01:20:32 ◼   ► I've always thought that that was kind of strange.

01:20:34 ◼   ► How about the upgrade mouse club or Mike's mouse club?

01:20:39 ◼   ► - Mike's, we need another M though.

01:20:43 ◼   ► Like Mike's mouse something.

01:20:47 ◼   ► - No, 'cause it's like the Mickey Mouse Club.

01:20:48 ◼   ► It's Mike's mouse club.

01:20:49 ◼   ► - Oh, Mikey's mouse club.

01:20:51 ◼   ► - Mikey's mouse club.

01:20:52 ◼   ► - Legally distinct, legally distinct Mikey's mouse club.

01:20:56 ◼   ► - All right.

01:20:56 ◼   ► - And finally, David asks, and he's asking to me here.

01:20:59 ◼   ► If I recall Mike, you are wearing the latest Apple watch

01:21:02 ◼   ► ultra two with the tap feature.

01:21:04 ◼   ► So like the double tap.

01:21:06 ◼   ► When wearing the vision pro, do you have any input clashes

01:21:09 ◼   ► as they're using the same pinch gesture for input?

01:21:11 ◼   ► So a couple of things here.

01:21:13 ◼   ► One, the scenario in which that would have to happen

01:21:16 ◼   ► would be rare, right, of like pinching twice,

01:21:19 ◼   ► because typically something has to be going on as well

01:21:22 ◼   ► on the Apple watch.

01:21:23 ◼   ► - And pretty forceful.

01:21:24 ◼   ► And forceful is not a thing on, right?

01:21:27 ◼   ► Because force is doing it in the watch.

01:21:28 ◼   ► - Yeah, they are nowhere near the same gestures.

01:21:31 ◼   ► - It's literally a camera that's looking to see

01:21:33 ◼   ► where your fingers are.

01:21:34 ◼   ► So they're very different gestures.

01:21:36 ◼   ► - But I also do, I wear my watch on my left wrist

01:21:39 ◼   ► and I operate vision pro mostly with my right hand.

01:21:42 ◼   ► I don't know why, it's just the one that I've chosen

01:21:44 ◼   ► probably because it's what I typically

01:21:46 ◼   ► will use my mouse with.

01:21:47 ◼   ► It's like my mouse or trackpad.

01:21:49 ◼   ► In Mikey's mouse corner, I use my mouse.

01:21:52 ◼   ► My mouse corner is on the right hand side.

01:21:55 ◼   ► But so I have never had this happen.

01:21:58 ◼   ► However, Apple in their wisdom have added a feature

01:22:02 ◼   ► that is gonna be in 17.4 to allow you to turn off

01:22:07 ◼   ► double tap when using the vision pro.

01:22:11 ◼   ► So that your watch will know when you're wearing

01:22:15 ◼   ► the vision pro and turn off the,

01:22:18 ◼   ► you can choose to turn off the double tap feature

01:22:21 ◼   ► when you're using it if it was something

01:22:23 ◼   ► that you were getting into trouble with.

01:22:25 ◼   ► But I would find it for me very difficult

01:22:30 ◼   ► to find the way in which that happens.

01:22:32 ◼   ► 'Cause it is, while it is still the same finger and thumb,

01:22:36 ◼   ► it is a much different amount of force,

01:22:41 ◼   ► like the way you do it is very, very different.

01:22:45 ◼   ► But maybe you're just furiously clicking around

01:22:47 ◼   ► when you're noodling on the vision pro

01:22:49 ◼   ► and you set things off left, right and center.

01:22:52 ◼   ► If you would like to send us a question

01:22:55 ◼   ► for us to answer on a future episode,

01:22:57 ◼   ► please go to upgradefeedback.com.

01:23:00 ◼   ► It's where you can send in your ask upgrade questions,

01:23:02 ◼   ► just no talk questions or any follow up or feedback

01:23:05 ◼   ► you may have about the show.

01:23:07 ◼   ► If you wanna check out Jason's work, go to sixcolors.com.

01:23:10 ◼   ► I'm sure Jason will have some stuff to say

01:23:12 ◼   ► about these new Macs.

01:23:14 ◼   ► As soon as he's able to try them,

01:23:16 ◼   ► you'll be able to read from there, sixcolors.com.

01:23:18 ◼   ► And you can hear his podcast here on Relay FM

01:23:20 ◼   ► at the incomparable.com.

01:23:22 ◼   ► We also hear me too, I'm on many shows here at Relay FM.

01:23:25 ◼   ► You can check out my product work over at cortexbrand.com.

01:23:28 ◼   ► You can find us on Mastodon.

01:23:30 ◼   ► Jason is @jsnell on zeppelin.flights.

01:23:33 ◼   ► I am @imike, I am Y-K-E on mike.social.

01:23:37 ◼   ► You can find video clips of the show on our,

01:23:41 ◼   ► we're on Mastodon as upgradeatrelayfm.social.

01:23:43 ◼   ► Also on TikTok, Instagram and YouTube,

01:23:46 ◼   ► we are @upgraderelay.