574: Weird Forking Scenario


00:00:00   Are you trying to do like a vision pro layout or what just just don't worry about it. I needed John to be here

00:00:05   I waited longer than normal expecting captain late to be here and I'm wrong. Oh my god. It's you

00:00:10   Wait, what is behind me? I don't even know what that background is. Maybe does zoom at that or does Apple add that?

00:00:18   I think I think zooms doing it is that I don't even know if there's a way to change what's behind me

00:00:22   So I am currently using AirPods

00:00:25   I am recording my real mic and I will change as soon as I have John freak out about how ridiculous I look and then

00:00:31   I will turn all this off and rejoin on my computer. Okay, but it was worth it for the fun of it

00:00:36   Oh, look, there's night. There's ish my hand. No, there it is. There it is

00:00:39   If you look at the trademark Casey thumbs up, I mean the problem is your smile doesn't get big enough

00:00:43   What are you gonna do ain't nobody perfect hi John

00:00:48   What's going on last night? It was a

00:00:52   Did a podcast and I did my normal zoom recording. Hello scary face and

00:00:56   The thing listeners that you have to learn about trying to surprise or shock John, Syracuse

00:01:06   You will never get the reaction you want. We know this from being friends with John for what 13 years or whatever. It's

00:01:16   But whatever reaction you want to get out of John who will not receive it like I believe you got

00:01:22   What about one and a half words of a reaction?

00:01:25   As I said, I've seen a lot of personas now, but we hadn't seen Casey's for some other anyway

00:01:30   That's not to say that I'm not ever surprised about things

00:01:33   Marco was very trying carefully trying to say you won't get the reaction you expect

00:01:36   So maybe I'll be way more surprised than you expected or way less

00:01:43   We have some follow-up apparently John does not know how to do calculations, I presume mental calculations or perhaps arithmetic beforehand

00:01:51   But one way or another you screwed up your PPD. So tell me what PPD is and how'd you screw it up, sir?

00:01:56   The problem wasn't with calculations because I wasn't doing these calculations myself

00:02:00   It was with the little PPD calculator

00:02:02   Which is pixels per degree and we linked the calculator in

00:02:05   Last episode show notes and had a bunch of sliders and text fields and apparently I messed up one of the sliders or text fields

00:02:11   When I was doing the iPad Pro PPD because last episode I said it was 28 PPD

00:02:16   If I have my iPad my 11 inch iPad Pro sitting on a pillow on my lap in the bed

00:02:22   Measure the distance size of screen resolution enter it all in and I got 28 PPD

00:02:27   I had one of the sliders just incorrectly set the correct number is

00:02:32   67 PPD so that kind of changes things because last episode I was like wow

00:02:37   The vision Pro is 34 PPD, which is pretty good for a headset and the iPad that I watch my TV shows on

00:02:43   It's only 28 and that's less than the vision Pro turns out about so much turns out vision Pro 34 ish

00:02:48   iPad Pro 11 inch 67

00:02:51   4k TV 5 feet away 76

00:02:53   Pro display XDR 2 feet 100. So it's making me feel a little bit better about my future OLED iPad Pro purchase

00:03:00   Tell me about field of view and I've movement if you don't mind

00:03:04   This was something that occurred to me after recording last week's episode. We were talking about

00:03:09   the field of view the vision Pro and how it compares to the headsets and so on and also Marco mentioned like

00:03:17   When sometimes when he was looking at targets to like the left and right side of the field of view

00:03:22   it was having trouble with the eye tracking sort of at the extremities and

00:03:25   It occurred to me that those two things combined that when we talk about

00:03:30   Field of view and how narrow it is in the headset as opposed to like, you know

00:03:34   Just your eyes out in the world or even some other headsets

00:03:37   It's compounded by the fact that when you do a Marco was describing which is like keep your head still

00:03:42   But turn your eyes to like, you know in the vision Pro targets a button that's in the upper left corner of your field of view

00:03:48   When you do that, you know, it's it kind of makes sense

00:03:52   It's it's at the extremes of the edges of the screen

00:03:55   You're you're looking through the edges of the lenses that are in the vision Pro

00:03:58   I can understand how eye tracking might be more difficult there

00:04:01   but when you do that in real life and you have your head staying still and

00:04:05   You move your eyes to the left to see something in the upper left corner of your monitor without moving your head

00:04:10   Guess what your field of view moves with your eyeballs, but that does not happen in the vision frozen vision pro

00:04:18   So you see I'm saying when you shift your eyes to the left your whole field of view is always centered on where your eyes

00:04:23   are pointed but when you shift your eyes to left in vision Pro the field of view does not move with your eyeballs because if you're

00:04:30   Not moving your head the screens are in the same place and you know, that's obvious if you think about it

00:04:37   But it really does make the narrow field of view

00:04:39   Feel more narrow because as you shift your eyes the fields of view doesn't shift with them

00:04:45   And I'm not saying it's easy to do that there

00:04:48   What are they gonna do have little motorized the screens that travel around to be very difficult to do that?

00:04:51   But it does make the fields of you feel even narrower and it is also why a lot of people who have used vision Pro

00:04:56   for a longer time now

00:04:58   Get into the habit of or suggested other people get into the habit of moving their head more both to avoid Marco's issue

00:05:05   which is like, you know the eye tracking seems like it's the best kind of run the middle ish of the screen and

00:05:09   Also because if you do want to for example take in a window that you have floating to your left

00:05:15   Merely glancing your eyes over there is not going to reveal any more of that window

00:05:19   it would in real life because the center of your field of view would shift but in vision Pro you actually have to turn your

00:05:24   Head to move the little screen so they know to change what they're displaying, you know, that's a good point

00:05:29   And I also wanted to bring up I was talking to somebody about this and I think I know who it is

00:05:33   But they all remain nameless

00:05:34   But I was talking something about this in I believe it was that last episode that you seemed very

00:05:39   Disgruntled about the idea of moving your head really in any direction

00:05:44   But I think particularly laterally in order to you know, use my fantasy which is actually kind of reality

00:05:49   Magical world where you've got like panels of windows all around you and you seemed and don't let me put words in your mouth if I miss

00:05:56   characters

00:05:58   mischaracterizing what you said

00:05:58   I apologize but it seemed like John you were very perturbed about the idea of moving your head a lot and I was thinking about this

00:06:03   And talking to somebody that we know do you not move your head when you're looking at that?

00:06:08   Humongous XDR like do you really keep your head dead center locked in straight ahead?

00:06:12   Cuz I've got three 5k displays here because I'm a weirdo and and because Marco sent me one

00:06:18   I'm pitching my head laterally

00:06:20   Constantly like all the time granted not up and down and in but it's it's only laterally, but I am always moving my head

00:06:28   Do you not do that with your XDR?

00:06:29   I mean

00:06:30   I'm sure I do move my head but

00:06:31   Considerably less like I'm definitely a one monitor in front of me kind of person because if I if I feel like oh I have

00:06:36   To look over there

00:06:37   Which I guess is there's some like a minimum amount of head movement that makes me feel like that

00:06:41   Like what I want to feel like is that everything is there in front of me now

00:06:44   Obviously the bigger the monitor gets it's not all in front of you and the part of your vision that is in focus is very

00:06:49   Small anyway, but I can flick my eyes over to various I can I could I feel like I can take in my whole XDR

00:06:55   Obviously I can't because the way human vision works

00:06:57   But I feel like I can very easily flick my eyes to any corner and when I do that

00:07:00   I'm sure my head moves, but doesn't move a lot, right?

00:07:03   Whereas if you have a second monitor you have to make that choice that you know

00:07:06   You've made in one way and otherwise

00:07:08   We're just like do I make it so the seam between the two monitors is directly in front of me or do I put one?

00:07:13   Monitor directly in front of me and then one monitor to the side and if you have a big monitor in front of you that monitor

00:07:18   To the side is in head turning zone because you really have to you know rotate

00:07:21   Especially if you want to see like the upper left corner of the monitor that is to the left of the large monitor

00:07:26   That's directly in front of you. You're turning your head a lot and you'll feel it. So I prefer obviously the one big monitor

00:07:32   I don't know what the limit is. It's not it's not 32 inch. All right, I'll tell you when I get to it

00:07:37   I bet if I put my 65 inch television on my desk

00:07:40   That would be past the limit and I'd be turned in my head just to look at the Apple menu

00:07:43   But so far from anything that Apple has shipped that I've used with my computer 32 inch fits within my field of view

00:07:49   Also, like, you know when when people are trying to compare the vision Pro and you know

00:07:55   How it might compare just to computer, you know

00:07:57   regular computer screens like this or how you might be able to use it as a virtual computer screen

00:08:01   The sharpness and density like, you know

00:08:05   Like what John was saying a minute ago about the PPD the density of a good computer monitor is just way higher

00:08:11   And it's way sharper than the virtualized windows that you create within the vision Pro environment

00:08:16   And so what it feels like when you when you're making vision Pro windows

00:08:20   Everything feels like it is larger and further away

00:08:24   Usually than how you would normally set up a computer monitor

00:08:28   You can pull the windows virtually closer to you in vision Pro and you can shrink them down

00:08:31   So they like match the size and the position and the scale

00:08:34   But the resolution is just not there the displays and the vision Pro are not yet high resolution enough to be able to

00:08:41   simulate the same density we get from computer displays that are right there in front of us in the real world, so

00:08:46   You kind of can't directly compare

00:08:49   So if you wanted for instance

00:08:50   If you wanted to have the resolution of the 32 inch pro display XDR be reasonably usable in the vision Pro

00:08:59   You would have to make the window much larger than the then the XDR actually appears in real life

00:09:04   And you probably then either, you know

00:09:06   Push it back from you a little bit further in the distance which then of course

00:09:09   You know shrinks the resolution kind of even further because there's only so many pixels on the physical displays

00:09:14   So that's not really gaining any resolution

00:09:16   It's just changing the perspective or you bring it really close to you in which case it's really big

00:09:21   You have to turn your head more if you actually want to minimize head turning as you're using a computer display

00:09:27   The best way to do that is not in the vision Pro. It's by using a regular high DPI extra monitor

00:09:33   Yeah, you know

00:09:34   I think

00:09:35   Another like not bone to pick that's very antagonistic

00:09:38   But another thing that that I was reflecting on after our last episode that I I don't I just don't think I agree

00:09:44   Is that you know the Mac virtual display? I think it's perfectly fine

00:09:48   Like I don't really argue anything you just said Marco, but for my eyes

00:09:52   Which I will be the first to tell you my eyes are not great

00:09:55   I think I have like 20 25 or 20 30 or something like that vision with my contacts in which is basically the only way I

00:10:00   Live but they're not perfect

00:10:02   So consider your source here when I say that I think the Mac virtual display is pretty darn crisp

00:10:09   And I think part of that may be because I can blow it up to be hilariously large if I so desire and I'm again

00:10:15   I'm not arguing that you know, the effective resolution isn't lower than an XDR or even a 5k machine

00:10:20   but I don't know I've used Mac virtual display in the vision Pro for a couple hours at a time and I

00:10:26   Didn't find it off-putting or frustrating at all. It was perfectly serviceable serviceable

00:10:31   If not an improvement in terms of my ability to get things done over my 14 inch display

00:10:38   You know, my MacBook Pro is onboard display

00:10:39   It's not an improvement in terms of fidelity to your point

00:10:42   But it certainly felt like an improvement in terms of my ability to get things done because I had so much more real estate than

00:10:48   My little 14 inch MacBook Pro has so I don't know. I I don't know how to phrase this

00:10:54   Concisely, like I'm not trying to say you're wrong by any means, but I don't know my my experience was a little bit different

00:10:59   I guess it's the best I can say well, but we're actually talking about two different things

00:11:02   And I think this is an important distinction

00:11:04   You know what you are saying is you can use it as a Mac virtual display and it works perfectly fine

00:11:09   You know, you even said the word serviceable like it works. You can do it

00:11:12   Yeah, it'll improve your productivity over a built-in Mac screen

00:11:14   Maybe like you are correct. I and I spend a little more time with it since last week's episode

00:11:19   I've tried again

00:11:20   I've tried different, you know head sealed shapes and foam cushion shapes and I've tried with and without the reading glasses

00:11:26   I even there was actually a tip somebody puts on reddit and people linked it linked us to it

00:11:31   in the IPD adjustment thing

00:11:33   like when you put it on and it has you hold on the crown and it goes and it moves the you know moves the

00:11:37   Things in in that screen if you tap the other button like the capture button it can scoot them manually back out

00:11:44   so as far as I can tell this is a single a single direction adjustment, but it does it does allow some degree of

00:11:50   manual IPD changes and this person on reddit had said that this made a huge difference for them and like how

00:11:57   Sharp and clear it was to use that ice rain stuff that so I thought of course I got to try this

00:12:00   I tried a little bit. I tried a lot. It didn't really make any noticeable difference for me

00:12:06   I have gone back to not using the Zeiss reader inserts to just using it straight like the way I had it in the lab

00:12:12   Sorry, I went to a lab. That's all I can say about that, but I still find the vision Pro

00:12:17   Sharp enough that I'm pretty sure I'm not having like eye problems by not seeing it sharper

00:12:22   But the Mac screen sharing is still not nearly as sharp as a real Mac monitor now

00:12:29   this is a totally separate discussion from

00:12:32   Whether you can use it and whether it whether it has utility and whether some people can be totally fine using it for many hours

00:12:38   at a time that's a separate discussion my claim is that it is not as sharp as a real Mac monitor the

00:12:45   Kind of sizing and positioning and focus distance issues make it less practical for me

00:12:51   And if given the choice, I would take a regular Mac monitor any day

00:12:54   I also try you know people have reported if you have the developer strap which we'll get to in a second it provides

00:13:00   I guess a faster connection to the Mac that it's connected to and that apparently Mac screen sharing works better with the developer strap

00:13:06   I tried it and honestly I noticed no difference. So I don't know if that's a thing or not. I could tell no difference and

00:13:12   finally, I tried editing this podcast on it last week and

00:13:16   While it was interesting to have that much screen space

00:13:19   I did I didn't notice this when just doing like basic, you know

00:13:23   Email and web browser and stuff like that kind of productivity, but when I started editing the podcast in logic, I immediately noticed lag

00:13:30   Just like, you know moving the mouse around because I'm doing lots of fast mouse movements and fast keyboard and everything

00:13:35   When I'm doing when I'm using something logic

00:13:37   So the lag was actually kind of a deal-breaker for me in addition to the fact that it's almost like you're using screen sharing

00:13:42   Yeah, it's also very awkward trying to like where studio sized headphones while using the vision for like that also proved to be a problem

00:13:49   But there are multiple issues with the Mac screen sharing that make it

00:13:53   noticeably less good than using an actual Mac screen and

00:13:57   Some of those are probably just inherent to the technology

00:14:00   Some of those will probably be fixed in the future or improved in the future with higher resolution screens

00:14:04   So if you're looking for something that's going to directly replace a Mac screen

00:14:09   This won't do that

00:14:10   But this can serve as a Mac screen with some compromises and for many people that will be totally fine

00:14:17   I'm worth the trade-off, but it's not a direct replacement

00:14:20   I think that's the key what you the way you ended that that yeah, it isn't a direct replacement like I guess that's true

00:14:26   However, it is more than serviceable

00:14:30   And I know I said that before but like it was it to me has been pretty pretty good

00:14:34   I haven't occasionally noticed lag

00:14:36   I've actually noticed more pointer lag where I think it's a little confused if I'm trying to control a vision OS window or the Mac window

00:14:41   I've noticed a little bit more pointer lag than I've noticed display lag, but I'm not editing, you know stuff in logic or whatever

00:14:47   But I think I think your point is fair that it is not better than having a dedicated monitor

00:14:52   But if you are ever somewhere other than your desk and you would like to have more screen real estate

00:14:58   I think that this is more than just acceptable. I think it's pretty darn good again

00:15:03   Consider your source. My eyes are not great

00:15:04   So it very well could be that if I had Marco's eyes that I would look at this and go

00:15:08   This ain't great at all

00:15:10   To my eyes which I in general as much as I'm making fun of myself like in generally speaking in day to day

00:15:16   You know use of my eyes. I can't think of a better way to phrase this

00:15:19   like I don't feel like things are generally blurry, but I

00:15:23   Want to make it plain that my eyes are not stupendous

00:15:27   And so I think that like the fidelity is fine. The crispness is fine. I think it works reasonably well

00:15:32   I again, I mean lag could be an issue if you're editing in logic

00:15:36   But for the sorts of things that I do

00:15:37   I think the lag is fine

00:15:38   Like I think this is this is really really good and I was debating if I wanted to bring this up

00:15:43   But I might as well do so. I actually did take the vision Pro to a local library. I did this on Monday morning

00:15:49   I booked a little like conference room sort of thing, which did have a glass wall behind me

00:15:55   But I booked a conference room for a couple hours, which was later like a two-person like study room

00:15:59   I guess I should call it and I had my back to the outside wall

00:16:03   So the only thing that anyone would be able to see is like the weird head headband behind me and I did work

00:16:09   I wrote code for a couple hours and it was

00:16:13   Great, like it was absolutely great

00:16:16   I

00:16:16   Then got booted from my conference room because my time was up and I needed to spend a little time in like the regular

00:16:21   Desks and chairs and cubicles area and I did not have the gumption

00:16:26   Point but for the time that I was somewhat secluded and not completely conspicuous. I thought it was

00:16:34   Wonderful, it was so much better than my rinky-dink

00:16:37   Like what is it like 12 or 13 inch monitor that I bring with me is like a second display

00:16:41   It was so much better than that. So again, I'm not trying to say that anything you've said Marco was incorrect wrong or inaccurate

00:16:47   All I'm trying to say is for me and my uses. It's been great. It's been really really good

00:16:53   Yeah, and I think what you said at the beginning of that is pretty important you were talking about like, you know your eye

00:16:58   quality for the

00:17:01   If you are accustomed to

00:17:04   Not that sharp of vision. You might not see the difference and that's not an insult. Like that's just the reality

00:17:12   The problem if you are accustomed to sharp vision and you're accustomed to the sharpness of Mac screens

00:17:18   when you see the virtual screen like one of the effects I get is I almost feel like I'm getting eye strain because

00:17:24   My eyes are trying to focus harder to resolve the detail

00:17:29   they expect to be there but that isn't actually there because I'm accustomed to seeing a certain level of sharpness on

00:17:35   The physical Mac displays and so when I'm viewing something in vision in vision probably in the Mac screen sharing mode

00:17:41   That is a little bit soft

00:17:42   My eyes think they're not focusing correctly and they try harder to focus on it similar to when I was describing last week about

00:17:48   like when I try to focus on stuff that's out that's in the soft depth of field areas of a 3d movie like I'm thinking I

00:17:54   Should be able to focus on this and it kind of hurts my eyes

00:17:56   To look at a D focused area of the video that I think I should be able to focus on

00:18:01   so it's that same kind of effect when looking at the Mac screen like if you are if you have

00:18:05   You know pretty sharp vision in the physical world

00:18:08   That I think makes it more noticeable to use the Mac screen this way and to see its flaws and to potentially maybe cause some

00:18:14   Eye strain, you know Marco about your lag in when editing the podcast

00:18:19   You just have to wait for the vision OS native version of logic

00:18:23   Which based on the iPad schedule should be here in ten short years. So hang in there

00:18:27   I mean the screens are probably higher resolution by then

00:18:29   Yeah, just to be clear for people like always saying there's lag screen sharing with the Mac like he's using a Mac program to edit

00:18:35   The podcast so he's screen sharing with his Mac

00:18:36   And if presumably if it was a native vision OS version of the thing

00:18:39   There would be conservative s lag as the app would actually be running on the vision Pro which has an m2 and it would be fine

00:18:44   Oh, I would expect no lag if it was native right related to what you were all saying about screens

00:18:48   This also is one final note on the whole field of view and everything and you were kind of both touching on it like

00:18:54   Even before vision Pro came out. There was lots of people speculating about like well, you know

00:18:59   You have such-and-such size monitor on your laptop or on your desk

00:19:04   But once you get to vision Pro imagine you could make it 100 feet tall in front of you, right?

00:19:09   And we heard a lot of that both before the vision Pro is in anyone's hand and now after when people have it

00:19:15   they still make statements like that and

00:19:17   both of you were touching on is this sort of the edges of that but it made me think about like

00:19:21   What does it mean to have a really big screen in front of you?

00:19:25   Obviously one aspect of it that we discussed at length is okay

00:19:29   Well, like how many pixels can I see because when you're doing stuff with like, you know, Mac screen sharing or something?

00:19:34   What it comes down to is like look, you know toolbars take up a certain number of pixels

00:19:38   And if I want to see more stuff on my screen

00:19:40   I need to have more pixels because I don't really care if I can make something 100 feet if it's 640 by 480 pixels

00:19:47   Because there's just not enough information density there, but it also got me thinking about things like watching movies

00:19:52   Oh, you know, well, you could watch movies on your little laptop on a plane

00:19:56   But when I'm on the plane, I can put a 20-foot screen in front of me

00:20:00   And there are a couple of aspects of what what does it mean to look at a big screen?

00:20:04   Especially when thinking about things like movie screens when you're in a movie theater, let's say the screen is a hundred feet diagonal or something

00:20:10   They're really the screens are really big. It's a really big movie theater. It's not a dinky movie theater. It's a big movie theater

00:20:15   That screen is really big

00:20:17   How that manifests in our viewing is one how much of your field of view does it take up and if you're in the front?

00:20:23   Row, it takes up all of your field of view

00:20:25   But you can't even see the whole screen without turning your head right and if you're in the back row

00:20:27   It takes up less but it takes up a certain amount of your field of view

00:20:31   But field of view is not the only thing that makes a screen big if it was we could take our phones and jam them

00:20:37   Up to our eyeballs and be like wow, my phone screen is huge

00:20:41   It's taking up my home with my entire field of view because it's touching the bridge of my nose

00:20:45   Right field of view is not the only thing

00:20:48   That determines a screen a big quote unquote big screen

00:20:52   The second thing is how far away is it from you and in the movie theater if you're watching some gigantic

00:20:58   IMAX screen that's hundreds of feet right hundreds of feet diagonal. It's just a massive screen. That's multiple stories tall

00:21:04   It's also not touching the bridge of your nose

00:21:07   It's probably pretty far away because if it wasn't you wouldn't be able to see anything again

00:21:11   If you were sitting in the front row and you cranked your neck and you can't even see the entire

00:21:15   Screen depending on how well the theater is laid out

00:21:18   Inside vision Pro many things conspire to make it not a good match for anything that I've just described

00:21:26   Obviously the physical reality is their screens like less than an inch from your eyeball or whatever

00:21:30   But that's not how they work because that's not how it feels because of the lenses

00:21:32   So the first thing is field of view

00:21:34   We know the field of view of the entire vision Pro is like 100 degrees

00:21:37   The ideal movie viewing thing is like 40 degrees or whatever field of view. You're fine

00:21:41   You should be able to get something that has the same field of view as a as the biggest movie theater screen

00:21:46   You've ever seen where you have a good seat in the theater

00:21:49   So I feel like we're covered especially for a static thing like field of view pixels. We already know it's not quite adequate

00:21:55   To give the kind of fidelity we expect from a Mac monitor, but it's not awful either then there's distance

00:22:01   One of the things that makes that 100 foot screen feel like it's 100 feet is the fact that it's really far away from you

00:22:06   That it fills a lot of your field of view

00:22:08   But also when you try to look at it

00:22:11   You have to focus I don't know 50 feet away or whatever

00:22:13   Like you have to focus the distance from the middle of the giant theater to the screen and that's never going to happen in the current

00:22:20   Vision Pro because every single thing in there is 1.3 meters from you

00:22:25   So no matter how much of your field of view you make the television screen the movie or whatever no matter how big you make

00:22:31   It even if you make it like I'm sitting in the front row and I can't even see the whole screen and it's just overwhelming

00:22:36   Me it's still going to be

00:22:38   1.3 meters away as far as your eyeballs are concerned because you'll be focusing 1.3 meters away to be able to see what's on

00:22:44   The screen this is not to say that it's bad or good or indifferent

00:22:47   Sometimes having it 1.3 meters away is probably better than having it 50 feet or away

00:22:52   But it explains why when I was in there

00:22:56   I've experimented but like can I make like this video really big to make it feel like I'm watching a big screen and I could

00:23:02   Make it big and I can make it fill my field of view

00:23:05   But it never felt like I was watching an IMAX screen and it's because the IMAX screen is not 1.3 meters from my face

00:23:11   so I don't know what the solution to this other than you know, obviously we talked about a

00:23:15   headset that has a variable focal distance or whatever, but keep this in mind when you're thinking about

00:23:21   What what you want out of a big screen experience when you're talking about talking about the Mac

00:23:25   You probably want more pixels that this thing can't really deliver comfortably

00:23:29   For you when you're talking about a movie screen if you like the feeling of sitting in a giant movie theater

00:23:34   You're not going to get that when your eyes are focusing 1.3 meters away

00:23:37   But in Casey's case or if you're on an airplane or whatever

00:23:41   You can definitely get a larger screen 1.3 meters away that you comfortably can in a physical environment

00:23:46   Either whether that means but you're not carrying your XDR with you to the library to get the view that Casey was getting

00:23:51   Or bring it on to a plane or whatever

00:23:53   How do we turn off a vision Pro? I don't even remember talking about this last episode

00:23:59   Was this it was it was during my demo when the person was twisting the power connector to reboot the vision Pro

00:24:03   Oh, yeah. Yeah. So when the person did that I teasingly said, oh, you know

00:24:07   Apple never puts power buttons on their things because wouldn't that be more convenient to power button and then I suggested to the person

00:24:13   when they were twisting the little thing taking it off and like why don't you just try holding down the

00:24:17   The crown and the button at the same time and they told me no that's not how it works. And then as another head

00:24:23   head to the door a week of people sending me Mastodon messages saying you should have just told the person to hold down these two

00:24:29   Buttons because that will show the little shutdown slider that you see it in from iOS and let you turn down

00:24:34   So anyway, there is an Apple support document explaining how you can turn off the vision Pro

00:24:39   I think it's just called how to turn off the vision Pro and apparently you can do any of the following number one

00:24:44   Press and hold the top button in the digital crown and I'll show like the little shutdown slider

00:24:48   number two go to settings general shutdown and then drag the slider number three say

00:24:53   dingus turn off my Apple vision Pro and

00:24:56   Finally take off a vision Pro place it on a secure surface like a table or desk then disconnect the power cable

00:25:02   It's amazing that they tell you the disconnecting the power cable is one of the ways you could turn it off

00:25:05   I mean, that's true, I guess but that's kind of a

00:25:07   Let's say ungraceful shut down because all the other ones give software time to do

00:25:12   You know and a proper clean shut down disconnecting the power does not do that. It's just gonna power

00:25:17   It's like oh, it's the Apple TV reboot procedure. Just yank out the power cord

00:25:21   Which is kind of interesting too because like no other iOS based device has ever had this right?

00:25:26   Yeah, just TV just TV OS ones all the Apple TV that like I remember when I first got the Apple TV

00:25:30   It's like surely there's a support document telling me how to like, you know, reboot it or shut it down

00:25:34   It's like just yank the cable. Although interestingly. I I understand that you grabbed this from the Apple support document

00:25:39   Not trying to argue with you, but to my recollection when you press and hold the capture and digital crown for a couple of seconds

00:25:46   Then that brings up a force quit menu. So maybe you have to mash it down for even longer

00:25:51   Yeah, I think I think both you eyes are in the same thing. Why don't you just try it?

00:25:55   I've got a strap in again. Hold on

00:25:58   This is not fun to do with headphones on I told you while Casey's doing that

00:26:04   I will bring up another point which is this document says you can do all these things

00:26:08   But I am suspicious about whether all of them are equivalent

00:26:12   I do believe that disconnecting the power will turn it off because there will be no more electricity and those two capacitors will discharge eventually

00:26:19   And as far as we know, there's no backup battery

00:26:20   So turning up disconnecting the power should turn the thing off every other one of these things

00:26:26   I'm suspicious that it's like in a deep sleep mode and it's not really off

00:26:30   You know what? I mean like yeah doesn't say that that's the case here

00:26:33   But bottom line is when power is still attached. I'd always what I mean, you know max have done it for ages

00:26:38   I always wonder if it's like I'm mostly off but I'm kind of a little bit on and occasionally I'll wake up and check for

00:26:43   New email and stuff which is the thing that max have done for ages

00:26:46   So I give this a little bit of side-eye but alright real-time follow-up real-time follow-up

00:26:50   So I'm gonna press down starting now and now I got a force quit menu closing the force quit menu now

00:26:57   I'm gonna press down starting now

00:27:00   Why are we doing okay there we got slide to power off so it was an additional one to two seconds

00:27:05   I will say also like hot tip about powering down the vision Pro

00:27:09   However, you choose to do it

00:27:10   Definitely power it down if you're gonna be not using it for a while and it's not plugged in

00:27:14   Because it drains own battery if you just leave it like on a countertop not plugged in it'll be dead by the next morning

00:27:21   Mine wasn't dead by the next morning, but it was like half the battery

00:27:26   The AirPods max just like the AirPods max is downloading your photos from your iPhoto library. So is your

00:27:31   AirPods max can't display them. It just likes to download them photo analysis D has to run

00:27:36   Actually do you think that's one of the things that melted my battery because I'd done this like the second day I had it

00:27:43   You know, I'd left it somewhere

00:27:44   I forget where and I it was plugged or plugged into the battery pack

00:27:47   But the battery pack was not plugged into anything. And yeah, I when I got to it the next morning

00:27:51   It was at like 50% or something. Yeah, it's downloading your messages

00:27:54   Syncing your notes like it's doing all the things if you have a if you have a long, you know long-suffering Apple ID

00:28:01   let's say it's got a lot of data and this thing's going to try to download it and

00:28:05   Yeah, it's gonna eat your battery. Yeah. All right, let's talk about the developer strap this we all ordered

00:28:12   Was it the day of release? I believe Marco is like the day after it was sometime soon afterwards

00:28:17   But you could kind of tell like maybe they just didn't want people to really talk about it

00:28:21   Cuz I think they they kind of buried this announcement

00:28:24   Yeah, I think I'm pretty sure it was the day of release

00:28:27   But if not, like you said it was the next day one way or another so to recap. This is a

00:28:31   $300 strap so it's it's the white pieces on the vision Pro that

00:28:39   Connect to the vision Pro to the back strap and in certain cases the top strap as well

00:28:46   The light to seal in or shield the light shield and the little light shield cushion

00:28:52   Those do not touch the strap those touch the vision Pro itself

00:28:54   But the back strap in top strap strap if applicable

00:28:57   Connect to these white straps and the white straps also house the ear pods audio pods, whatever they're called. Yeah, it's the right stick

00:29:04   That's right. And so the right hand stick if you get the developer the

00:29:07   $300 did I mention $300 the?

00:29:10   $300 developer. Yeah, are you a little upset about the price maybe?

00:29:15   Like I mean honestly I do to a degree I do get it but whoa golly

00:29:20   So this is the $300 strap that in the same spot that on the left hand side you plug in power to the vision Pro

00:29:26   It has a very similar design like a little nub in if you will and hanging off of that nub in is a USB C

00:29:34   receptacle so that you can plug USB C in on this and USB C in on your computer and then you can do

00:29:42   Things like have better screen sharing allegedly. I mostly agree with you Marco. I haven't really noticed a big difference on that

00:29:48   but one way or another you can have better screen sharing allegedly and you can also do much easier faster better etc development because you're

00:29:55   Not relying on Wi-Fi. I got one of these I ordered it immediately because I was still worried about

00:29:59   Inventory and things like that. It turns out that was I think for naught but nevertheless

00:30:04   I ordered it immediately it came in the Monday that I had left to go to New York

00:30:09   so I didn't get a chance to play with it until this past Monday when I brought it with me to the library knowing I was

00:30:15   Going to be doing vision Pro development and I thought to myself

00:30:17   You know what? I'm gonna leave this thing sealed and it was it was actually in the shipping box at this point

00:30:21   I'm gonna leave it sealed and hopefully I won't need it. You know, hopefully it won't be a big deal and

00:30:25   I connected my vision Pro to my computer via Wi-Fi and it did the I forget exactly what it's called Marco

00:30:33   You probably remember but the like downloading symbols are preparing for development. Whatever it is dance. There's it zero percent at two percent

00:30:41   Four percent at six percent and after literally like half an hour of this

00:30:47   I immediately opened the developer the three hundred dollar developer strap and said the hell with this

00:30:53   I'm gonna have to open this thing up and

00:30:55   When I opened it, I was under the impression that

00:30:59   This was a USB 2.0 device it only only thing it does is apparently a little bit of magic with screen-sharing

00:31:06   allegedly and

00:31:08   It lets you do, you know debugging and whatnot via the cable and apparently John that's not right. So what's going on here?

00:31:14   Yeah, I think this is still just people speculating but they're pulling it up in the system information app and Mac OS and you can

00:31:21   See it listed under the Thunderbolt

00:31:23   Before bus you can see the Apple vision Pro listed under there. Once you connect it with an actual Thunderbolt cable

00:31:29   So this is leading people to believe that

00:31:31   this thing is Thunderbolt capable even if none of the software that we have now is taking advantage of it and

00:31:36   One of the things that lends credence to that is if you look at the standard

00:31:39   little white stick that plugs in there and you take it out and you see the widest lightning connector Apple has ever made that has

00:31:45   Ten contacts on it and those contacts are only on one side. So it's very odd

00:31:50   asymmetrical one-sided curved lightning

00:31:54   The developer strap has 14 contacts are 28 14 on each side, right?

00:32:00   So that's a lot more contacts

00:32:02   Even if it's just for more that's substantial and the fact that they have them on both sides makes me think that this developer strap

00:32:07   Is surely equipped electrically speaking to do more than USB 2.0 speeds

00:32:13   We'll see if the that speed is unlocked in the future

00:32:16   But it sure looks like that. Maybe you might get more for your money more for your $300 than USB 2.0 speeds

00:32:23   If and when new versions of vision OS and or Mac OS and or Xcode are released

00:32:28   Yeah, can you imagine if this thing could and I mean it granted its dongle town all over again

00:32:34   But can you imagine if you could plug in like an HDMI in to this thing?

00:32:38   You know the same ones that you know, you've I've gotten and many people have gotten for their iPads and for their Macs

00:32:43   Especially what's the name of the the app that that's really good for HDMI input on the iPad that the halide people do

00:32:50   I'm drawing a blank now shoot. I'll try to remember to put it in the show notes. But anyways

00:32:54   Yeah, you imagine having an HDMI dongle and then plugging into that HDMI dongle

00:32:58   I don't know like a Nintendo switch or something like that. That would be neat. Is that possible? Who knows probably be an

00:33:04   HDCP whatever

00:33:06   You know handshake violation, you know, it's got a black screen. So don't worry about it. Yeah

00:33:10   But I don't know it would be cool if it was more capable than just doing you know

00:33:15   The developer strap stuff as it is today, and I'm not I mean I am grumbly obviously about the fact that it's three

00:33:20   $100 but nevertheless it is very convenient and and I know I haven't done watch development

00:33:26   Seriously, you know, I've dabbled as we talked about many years ago, but golly I would pay

00:33:31   $3,000 for one of these for an Apple watch. Oh my god

00:33:35   I would no question like if there were some kind of Apple watch developer strap, even if it was also

00:33:41   $100 or more I would buy it in a second because even though the Wi-Fi debugging to the Apple watch has gotten way less

00:33:48   Crappy than it used to be it is still

00:33:51   Compared to any kind of wired debugging like on a phone. So yeah, no question like that and that's why I bought this too

00:33:57   It is clunky to use in the sense that it is now two cables

00:34:02   There's a cable out coming out of each end and that's really yeah, that's not great

00:34:07   However, if you are doing like active debugging or a lot like a fast build and run cycle on the vision Pro from Xcode

00:34:14   It is really nice to have that be as fast as it can be and that is why I bought it because I knew I

00:34:21   always like I've like I've upgraded my entire Apple watch solely because

00:34:27   Underscore told me it would you know build the app a little bit faster in this build and run cycle

00:34:31   like that's how much it matters when you're actually

00:34:33   actively debugging and actively building and running an app in like a tight loop of all right change this fix this run again like

00:34:39   Every second matters for both your productivity and honestly your mood and so for me

00:34:45   It's very high value to try to shorten that loop and try to make make sure there's a little friction as possible

00:34:51   when I got to do that cycle and even though the cable situation is

00:34:55   Stupid the price is stupid

00:34:59   The the fact that it was not built in to the battery cable that itself has communication

00:35:04   Protocols and a USB C port on the battery is the stupidest of them all

00:35:08   however, I'll still gladly I still did gladly buy it and use it because

00:35:14   The debugging cycle is just that much better and it makes that much of a difference in my life

00:35:18   Yeah, I really wish that you could optionally and I and I get why Apple doesn't do this because there's 104 reasons

00:35:25   Why would be clunky, but I wish you could power this thing through the developer strap because somehow give me one cable, right?

00:35:33   That would be that would be tremendous. And I mean USB C can power can carry power

00:35:37   That is a thing USB C can do but unfortunately not here

00:35:41   But I mean the battery we just established last week that the battery puts out a voltage that is not

00:35:46   supported by you as any of the USB power to the respects, I believe it just it's weird because like it seems like

00:35:52   The hardware was designed without ever talking to the Xcode team

00:35:57   Designed in a vacuum with no one ever considering. Hey, what about cable debugging?

00:36:02   I mean, I'm sure they were they were using Xcode to do all the development of the vision. So that's it

00:36:08   So how like okay. I don't want to harper this too long, but just how

00:36:12   Did this not get integrated into the main battery cable somehow that blows my mind?

00:36:17   Yeah, real-time follow-up the the app that you were thinking of apparently according to the chat room is Orion. Yes. That's it

00:36:24   Thank you. Yep. Yep. Thank you

00:36:25   And then one more thing with Marco asking about debugging on the watch like so the rumors are that there there

00:36:31   Is and was a thing that you connect like a little diagnostic port behind the strap for watches

00:36:36   Internal to Apple to do essentially wired debugging on the Apple watch and then the rumor was that future Apple watches

00:36:42   I don't know if that means current or still to come ones used a sort of high-frequency wireless interface

00:36:47   To do that debugging that was better than Wi-Fi

00:36:50   But it's kind of like a direct point-to-point wireless interface with some really high frequency

00:36:54   so what we're saying is that we've always heard that inside Apple the

00:36:58   Build-and-run cycle that Marco was just complaining out for the Apple watch is better inside Apple, but that betterness

00:37:04   Supposedly has not yet trickled out to the regular developers

00:37:07   We are brought to you this week exclusively by ATP members, please consider joining and becoming a member today

00:37:16   So here's what you get the biggest benefit the most commonly used you get an ad-free version of the show

00:37:21   You can basically your own private RSS feed

00:37:24   It's compatible with most podcast apps and you can just paste it in off you go

00:37:28   You get an ad-free version of the show. You also get bonus episodes. This is exclusive content for members

00:37:34   We do all sorts of stuff about once a month or so

00:37:36   We do things like rank certain tech products or review movies or try food stuff like that

00:37:43   It's a lot of fun. Honestly, I've really enjoyed member content and our members tell us they really do too

00:37:47   You also get a bootleg feed this gives you if you want to listen to the show this way you can in addition or instead

00:37:53   This gives you unedited live streams of the show and it's published right after we finish doing the live stream

00:37:58   So it's published about usually, you know

00:38:00   The night before the episode comes out by almost a day and then it's totally raw and uncut

00:38:05   So you get to hear like, you know, if we like flub an intro have to redo it

00:38:09   You'll hear that your Casey's swearing without the beeping it out stuff like that

00:38:13   You'll hear bonus stuff at the beating an end or picking titles and you know

00:38:17   Trying to figure out the format or making you know

00:38:19   Kind of irrelevant discussions before or after the show that we end up cutting all that's included in the bootleg

00:38:23   It's a lot of fun being a member

00:38:25   You can do all this for just eight bucks a month and it is by far the best way to support the show

00:38:29   So please consider doing it. We would really appreciate it ATP FM slash join once again eight bucks a month

00:38:37   ATP FM slash join. Thank you so much for your consideration and now back to the show

00:38:42   Matt Rigby writes to us many quote-unquote 3d films including the recent Star Wars trilogy are actually 3d conversions

00:38:53   That is to say the films are shot in 2d on a single camera and then rotoscope artists

00:38:58   Individually cut out each element of every shot frame by frame

00:39:02   Otherwise known as rotoscoping then map these elements as textures onto rough 3d objects and render those objects in 3d space

00:39:09   Holy fart knockers. I can't believe that that's what people do to make these 3d movies. That sounds terrible, but Matt links to

00:39:16   Real 3d or fake 3d calm that is literally the URL real 3d or fake 3d calm

00:39:22   It's also linked in last last week's show notes

00:39:24   Because that's what I was trying getting at when I was talking about

00:39:26   the 3d movies and mark go ahead watch the Star Wars ones and the 3d wasn't done very well there and

00:39:31   the real or fake 3d hostname is you know, obviously

00:39:35   Extreme basically saying the thing you just read Casey that's fake fake 3d because it was like well

00:39:42   The movie was shot in 2d and then we make it 3d

00:39:44   It's also calls like post conversion or whatever

00:39:46   And so the real or fake 3d comm side it basically lists movies

00:39:49   Like look if you want to know if the movie you're going to watch is real or fake 3d

00:39:53   Look it up on here and you'll know

00:39:55   What it is that you're getting the implication being that you would presumably want to avoid the quote-unquote fake 3d instead of them

00:40:01   the real one

00:40:03   So I talked to our friend and illustrious industrial light and magic a special effects artist Todd vaziri who has worked on many Star

00:40:11   Wars is and many other Star Treks and other movies you may have heard of

00:40:16   about the topic of

00:40:18   3d and in particular the whole thing about a real and fake 3d and he had an interesting take on it

00:40:24   I'm going to try to summarize it here because I didn't

00:40:26   Record our conversation and it was in audio instead of email so I can't quote passages from it. His take was that

00:40:33   Shooting quote-unquote real 3d with two cameras sitting next to each other. You're filming stuff with two cameras in 3d

00:40:41   so you got a right eye and a left eye thing of it is

00:40:43   Kind of a pain in the butt now, it's pain in the butt for some obvious reasons. You have two cameras

00:40:48   They take up more room. They're heavier

00:40:50   It's pain to deal with two cameras to make sure they're all working and everything

00:40:53   You can't get those two cameras into the same places that you get one camera into you have less flexibility there, right?

00:40:57   Also when you're filming with two cameras, you have to make a bunch of decisions

00:41:01   when you're filming

00:41:04   That you don't have to you know, when you're post converting you can change your mind about stuff like that

00:41:09   So for example, the what we were saying the IPD the interpupillary distance

00:41:13   It's called the inter axial distance in the realm of 3d filming

00:41:16   when you film with two cameras you pick that distance by putting the cameras that distance apart from each other and

00:41:22   It's not easy to change that after the fact whereas when you film in 2d and they do that 3d conversion

00:41:28   You're choosing when you do the conversion

00:41:30   What you want that distance to be when when you do the conversion like later after the entire film is put together

00:41:36   but when you're shooting in 3d

00:41:38   you're kind of baking in that distance in every every one of your shots that you make and that's important because there's a whole bunch of

00:41:44   guidelines for doing 3d filming that you want to try to not violate which is like

00:41:50   Don't change that inter axial distance massively from one shot to the next because if you're cutting between them

00:41:56   It'll make people's eyes bug out was like whoa

00:41:58   Suddenly now my eyes are three feet apart now

00:42:01   They're two inches apart another three feet apart another one inch apart

00:42:03   you know like

00:42:04   You don't want to bounce that back and forth in the same way that you wouldn't want to bounce back and forth lots of things

00:42:09   In the 2d world, so you have to be have to have a lot of planning and be careful and be precise

00:42:13   you do have a lot of repair to do when you film in 3d because

00:42:18   You have to sort of make the image from each of the cameras match up in a pleasing way when viewed in 3d which involves

00:42:25   unwarping the lens distortion and making it so that when you actually watch it with 3d glasses or in a headset or something that it

00:42:31   Doesn't look weird if you get lens flares

00:42:34   you'll get different lens flares in each camera because they're in different positions and

00:42:38   trying to reconcile two different lens flares that you're showing in 3d is weird because we're all used to seeing one lens flare because the

00:42:45   Lens flares actually happen inside the lens and when you're shooting with one camera you get one lens flare

00:42:50   And that's what we're all used to seeing in movies

00:42:52   But when you shoot with two cameras you get two lens flares or maybe one

00:42:55   But not in the other one depending on where the lights are and we're not used to seeing that so it's weird

00:43:00   That's very

00:43:03   It makes filming very difficult

00:43:05   And it makes you have to sort of do like a Hitchcock style where you have everything planned out

00:43:09   You know exactly what you want you should only what you need and you can't change your mind easily about a lot of stuff

00:43:14   Whereas post-conversion you shoot it in 2d using all the techniques and technologies that we've always had for 2d

00:43:20   And then later someone comes along and says now I have to figure out how to make this into 3d

00:43:24   And they can slice and dice it and you know it sounds like a lot of work

00:43:27   And it is a big pain, but you can choose

00:43:30   and each individual

00:43:32   Frame of film how you want things to look so you'll know that okay?

00:43:36   We know that scene shot a comes after shot B comes at a shot C

00:43:39   So I'll make sure I don't bounce around the interaxial distance there right because you already know the film is done

00:43:43   It's already put together. You don't have to guess right the people who are filming it have to not guess

00:43:48   But like say well

00:43:49   I hope this shot comes after this shot comes after this shot

00:43:51   But if we decide to change it around it might be jarring because that shot we shot yesterday and the cameras are closer together than

00:43:55   They are now

00:43:56   It's kind of a pain in the butt and as for the Mario movie that I saw in my demo

00:44:01   I was asking like you know

00:44:03   Why would that look like bad 3d or fake looking 3d to me?

00:44:08   It's a CG rendered movie

00:44:10   And I kept saying they have all the depth information and people thought what I was saying is that somehow that there was like that

00:44:15   I was gonna get infinite depth information in the like in the movie itself as opposed to just a right eye and a left eye

00:44:21   I think what I'm saying is like when you're 3d rendering it the rendering software when it's generating the image knows the distance of all the

00:44:27   Pixels, so there's no reason that it would that things should look like they are 2d cutouts

00:44:32   And Todd didn't know any details about the Mario movie

00:44:35   But he said it's completely plausible that someone could have a CG movie and to save money or time

00:44:40   They would render out either the whole thing in 2d and then slice it up and add fake 3d to a CG movie or

00:44:46   render it out in layers and have those be composited together and part of that is again for cost and annoyance reasons if you're doing a

00:44:53   Computer animated movie like a Pixar movie you can do it the quote-unquote real way where you render two different perspectives

00:45:01   You have two virtual cameras in your virtual world and you render from two different perspectives

00:45:06   but when you do that you quickly find oh it turns out that now one of the cameras can see around back behind a piece of

00:45:13   Geometry that I thought was hidden in the 2d version of the movie and now I can see

00:45:16   someplace where we didn't fill in a texture or like

00:45:19   Todd's example was like there's a walk

00:45:21   animation of someone doing a walk thing and they go out of view and once they go out of view the walk animation stops because

00:45:27   You don't need to animate it when they're not in view

00:45:28   But the other camera spots when their legs stop moving and they just start sliding along, right?

00:45:33   So you have it's harder to it's like building a set right? Oh now your sets gonna be viewed from two slightly different perspectives

00:45:39   So be careful. You're not basically

00:45:42   Messing up your movie by trying to do it up to virtual cameras

00:45:45   Then of course two virtual cameras means twice the rendering time because you're not just rendering for one cameras

00:45:50   You need twice the CPU power or twice the amount of time to render each frame

00:45:53   This is why tons of quote-unquote fake 3d happens in movies and it it makes sense, but it also kind of explains

00:46:02   the the thing that I don't like about a lot of those is it does look like

00:46:06   someone cut out through pieces of paper the foreground the mid-ground on the background and they're sliding past each other in a way that

00:46:12   that doesn't

00:46:13   doesn't look convincingly 3d to me in the way that the

00:46:16   cameras in you know

00:46:18   the Alicia Keys studio looked him instantly 3d as if I was there because the cameras were similar distance to my eyes and

00:46:24   That was and they were shooting a real thing that was really there and that's all there was to it

00:46:27   friend of the show Joe Rosen steel

00:46:30   Wrote on six colors and it's a members only post that we're going to apparently steal some of so

00:46:35   I hope we had permission. I'm blaming John. This is these are excerpts from from Joe's summary of his own post

00:46:40   So I would recommend subscribe to six colors and read the entire article which is much longer, but here's Joe

00:46:45   He sent this through email. It's him trying to condense and summarize some of the major points a couple of important definitions off the top

00:46:51   Interaxial is the distance between two stereo cameras the distance between the human eyes is fixed at about 65 millimeters

00:46:59   But the distance between cameras can be anything and secondly convergence

00:47:03   This is where to the two images converge when they have positive

00:47:08   Parallax they recede into the screen and when they have negative parallax they stick out of the screen

00:47:14   So Joe writes with that mind everything you see you see with stereoscopic media 3d stuff is going to be different because you can't just set

00:47:22   Up to cameras 65 millimeters apart and call it a day when I used to work on stereoscopic movies

00:47:27   We would define inter axial and convergence values not just per shot but per element of a shot

00:47:32   because where the objects really were would have been boring to look at films are about directing the

00:47:37   Audiences view a big part of depicting depth and directing the viewers eye in 2d requires adjusting focal distance and aperture

00:47:44   Elements that are extremely out of focus imply depth in 2d and direct the eye in

00:47:48   stereoscopic films the more something is out of focus the more it loses any detail that your brain can use to see disparity between the

00:47:54   Different images shown to each eye and thus positive or negative parallax extremely out of focus elements will mush themselves back toward the depth

00:48:01   Of the screen regardless of them being far away or extremely close

00:48:04   So these these two points that we just went through here are fascinating. So the first is

00:48:09   Defining different like inter axial and convergence values for multiple things in the same shot

00:48:15   So basically it's almost as if like, okay when we shot the foreground characters the cameras were two feet apart

00:48:21   But then the table there's that's behind them. The cameras were six inches apart like adjusting the parallax for the individual things, which is

00:48:28   Obviously not how our eyes work our eyes don't suddenly move two feet apart when we look at one thing and then move back together

00:48:35   When we look at another thing, they're always the same distance apart

00:48:37   But what he's saying is you can't just take two cameras or rather he through the way 3ds or movies have been done

00:48:42   Hasn't just been to take two cameras put them human eye width apart and stick them and point them at something because that is deemed

00:48:49   Either not interesting or as he notes like the they're they're using those two tools the interactual distance and the convergence

00:48:56   To direct the audience's eye towards something which is another thing that I think

00:49:01   Distinguishes 3d movies which I tend not to like from the Alicia Keys and shark swimming towards you thing

00:49:07   Those are straight up two cameras the width of your eyes. And so it feels like you're there right? Whereas a 3d movie

00:49:15   The hand of the artist to the director is more prominent because they are directing your eye and to direct your eye

00:49:22   they're doing things that

00:49:24   Don't exist when you're looking at something like again multiple items in the shot using different

00:49:30   Camera distances apart whether it's real 3d or 2d, you know

00:49:34   So you could do it in real 3d if you shot them separately and then composite of them later or if it's fake 3d

00:49:38   They just you know separated them differently when they were slicing the elements up and that to me looks weird

00:49:44   And the other thing is oh, what about focal distance?

00:49:46   Well things that are out of focus tend to just look like tend to like your eyes can't tell the difference between them

00:49:52   So they just sort of converge on the the center of the screen

00:49:55   Like it's just at the depth of the screen

00:49:57   Even if you made the interaxial distance huge and the parallax they're supposed to be way far back in the screen as soon as you

00:50:02   Blur them people start to perceive them as being exactly at screen level, which is not what you want

00:50:08   and I also kind of feel that when I watch 3d movies where it's like, okay, well, they use a shallow depth of field here and

00:50:14   The 3d things look 3d

00:50:15   But that blurry thing it's blurry in the film because you know, they it was out of focus when they filmed it

00:50:21   But it should feel like it's 10 feet back

00:50:24   But it feels to me like it's right next to the foreground characters because it feels like it's at the depth of the screen

00:50:29   So Joe continues the 3d method used animated post converted or native stereo doesn't really make a film good or bad

00:50:36   There's a tendency to say that all post converted films are bad or fake

00:50:40   But that's not universally true because post conversion can allow for a greater degree of control over the end result if it's done

00:50:45   Well, isn't that what Todd just said?

00:50:47   Conversely native stereo and animated films are not universally more 3d because they captured full left and right eye views

00:50:53   Like if they just set it near to human vision pushed everything behind the screen plane and didn't dial in the depth of field to increase

00:51:00   What's in focus etc. So these came in independently and I don't know exactly when you had your conversation with Todd

00:51:06   But I think a pretty much concurrently Joe and Todd said basically the same stuff

00:51:10   yeah, Joe also works in the VFX industry and it really clarified for me why I don't like three movies because I

00:51:16   Mean, I guess they could be done. Well or not

00:51:19   Well, but first of all the Star Wars ones and the fake 3d that always bothers me for like the paper cutout thing

00:51:24   Like the foreground characters feel like they're closer

00:51:26   But they feel like I'm there they're like being projected onto a flat screen and they're close to me and I actually asked about that

00:51:30   I'm like did they ever especially for the foreground characters? Do they ever make do anything to make it?

00:51:36   So like when they're post converting a 2d thing, the foreground characters don't look like the paper dolls, right?

00:51:40   and apparently sometimes they take like a rough 3d model of a head and they map the

00:51:45   Essentially texture of the 2d filmed guys head on to that

00:51:50   So it so his ear is closer to you than his nose when he's side

00:51:54   You know what? I mean like but that I just look at that

00:51:56   I'm like just shoot it with two cameras man

00:51:58   but like but again all the complexity and the second thing is I

00:52:01   Think there has to be a distinction between what looks good in a headset and what looks good on a movie screen

00:52:05   the reason I'm so wowed by the stuff in the headset is because I'm looking at screens two screens that are I with a part and

00:52:12   The video I'm looking at was shot with a camera where the two cameras were basically two I was apart

00:52:17   So it's straight feels like I'm in the water with the shark feels like I'm in the studio with Alicia Keys

00:52:23   that is very different than sitting in a theater seat and looking at a screen and

00:52:26   then having the the people who made the movie decide where they want to direct your attention with some extremely unrealistic but hopefully pleasing and

00:52:33   Interesting and exciting 3d work and I personally really don't like that second thing, but I really like the shark fair enough

00:52:41   Alright, we've gotten a little bit of news with regard to the European Union's digital markets act

00:52:47   This is the genesis of all the oddness that's going on with the App Store in the EU

00:52:52   But we're not talking about the App Store right now

00:52:53   we're talking about iMessage and iMessage was one of those things that the

00:52:57   DMA people were wondering whether or not it classifies as a what is it a core platform service?

00:53:04   Which is their term of art to mean we're gonna regulate the snot out of you. And so reading from the verge

00:53:09   Apple's iMessage is not being designated as a quote core platform service quote under the European Union's digital markets act

00:53:17   The European Commission announced today. This is yesterday

00:53:20   The decision means the service won't be hit with tough new obligations including a requirement to offer interoperability with other messaging services

00:53:27   The Commission also opted against designated Microsoft's edge browser being search engine and advertising businesses as core platform

00:53:33   Services, although iMessage has avoided the burden of complying with rules that come with the official DMA designation

00:53:39   The period of regulatory scrutiny coincided with Apple announcing support for the cross-platform RCS messaging standard on iPhones

00:53:47   Meta meanwhile has seen two of its messaging platforms. What's happened messenger?

00:53:51   designated as core platform services under the DMA and has been working to make them interoperable with third-party services wampum

00:53:57   I guess like your price is like all the loser things Microsoft edge the search engine that nobody uses

00:54:02   iMessage, yeah, you're not even big enough to be regulated. Sorry. I'm sure Apple likes it, but it's kind of you know

00:54:09   Well, I mean this might have also been the result of like Apple lobbying for it in some way

00:54:13   I mean cuz keep in mind like the DMA is

00:54:17   Not

00:54:18   Defining these standards in a vacuum the DMA

00:54:20   Targets specific companies with specific products and services and then rationalizes it with how it how it draws the lines

00:54:27   Yeah

00:54:28   yeah, like it like it targets them by picking an arbitrary number if you have more than this exact number of customers as of whatever date and

00:54:35   They just look up who has them on that date and they just exactly so like, you know

00:54:39   So for whatever reason it isn't that I message just doesn't qualify

00:54:42   It's that they drew the lines to not include iMessage. Yeah, which I think is fair actually because it isn't

00:54:49   as dominant as the ones they are regulating and certainly Microsoft Edge is not dominant and neither is Bing so

00:54:54   Congratulations, and I'm sorry, I guess and then Riley test it has written in to us with regard to Apple's third party marketplace

00:55:02   system for the the Digital Markets Act

00:55:05   so Riley is the author Genesis creator of alt store and

00:55:11   So Riley has a lot of experience with what is probably the most official even though it's very very very unofficial

00:55:17   third-party app store for the iPhone today

00:55:20   So Riley writes I've been pouring through the marketplace kit documentation for the past week and a half and there's some nuances

00:55:26   I've learned from implementing this for alt store

00:55:28   First of all any developer can choose to distribute their apps to the alternative app

00:55:31   marketplaces regardless of where they live once they've agreed to the new business terms only developers building app

00:55:36   Marketplaces need to be based in the EU or have legal subsidiary in the EU to start using marketplaces

00:55:42   You must first request a security token from an alternative marketplace

00:55:45   Which will allow you to add that marketplace and app store connect

00:55:48   Once you've added a marketplace you can then choose which apps you want to distribute with it

00:55:52   You can distribute any of your apps to any combination of marketplaces including the App Store

00:55:57   Users will have to delete an app before installing the same app from another marketplace though

00:56:01   When you're ready to distribute your app you submit it to Apple through Xcode like normal and wait until notarization finishes once process

00:56:07   Developers can automatically submit notarized apps to marketplaces through Apple or they can manually download the notarized quote alternative distribution package quote

00:56:15   Or ADP and send it directly to the marketplace themselves. It's up to the marketplaces to choose how they want to receive their apps

00:56:20   that's the most interesting thing in this email because before we were saying oh everything has to go through Apple and

00:56:25   It does have to go through Apple, but Apple and Apple can deliver it to the third-party store

00:56:31   But they can also just give it back to you and say you know what you can do this last part

00:56:34   I don't know what that buys you other than more hassle because you do have to go through Apple

00:56:38   And so it's not like you can bypass them

00:56:40   but if you wanted you can say Apple don't send it to the store send it to me and then I'll send it to the

00:56:45   Store and I guess the marketplace would have its own upload portal thing where they accept them

00:56:50   I don't know what the advantages would be but it's interesting that that flexibility does exist

00:56:54   Riley continues I fully agree that third-party marketplaces only really makes sense for apps that can't exist on iOS right now

00:56:59   But not just for the obvious content reasons for example besides the fact that my app Delta isn't allowed in the App Store because it's a

00:57:05   Nintendo emulator it also is entirely monetized through patreon by

00:57:09   Providing pre-release access to beta versions to my patrons this business model is forbidden by the App Store despite it being a proven way to

00:57:16   Monetize software in other markets such as indie video games for this reason

00:57:19   I've actually added deep patreon integration to alt store to encourage other indie developers to monetize apps this way of which alt store takes no

00:57:26   Commission because I genuinely believe it's a better system for smaller developers

00:57:30   now the other thing with the DMA is that you are required to have a million euro line of credit and

00:57:38   What I think all of us took that to mean was you have to have a bank say

00:57:43   Yeah, we will give you up to a million euros if you ask for it like you've already pre-approved you

00:57:48   We will do it if necessary and we had a couple of pieces of feedback about this

00:57:53   But Bobby Perotti writes I work in commercial finance your discussion of the DMA and the required million euro quote standby letter of credit

00:58:00   Quote makes me want to clarify what that actually is

00:58:03   That's money that must be held essentially an escrow by your bank. It's not a line of credit

00:58:08   It's not like a line of credit. It is more akin to a minimum deposit

00:58:11   I think a lot of people assume it means you would be okay as long as you're approved for that amount of credit from a

00:58:15   bank like a home equity line but I can get a home equity line of credit never draw on it and not be

00:58:21   Inconvenient much at all as long as I have home equity a standby letter actually means that the bank is locking those funds up

00:58:27   So the beneficiary in this case Apple can take from it if certain conditions are met

00:58:31   It's your cash

00:58:33   but held unable to be used for anything else a

00:58:35   Good way to think about a standby letter of credit is basically a check that the beneficiary Apple can cash at any time

00:58:41   Small cones small consortiums of indie devs which will probably have trouble getting that kind of money together

00:58:48   In order to control their own distribution dense destiny

00:58:51   So I really wonder what Riley is gonna do about this

00:58:53   Maybe maybe either maybe Bobby's understanding is incorrect. Maybe our understanding certainly sounds like it's incorrect

00:58:59   He sounded pretty sure cuz I went back and forth around a lot and I asked one more clarification

00:59:03   We're just like, okay

00:59:04   Do you actually have to have that money because you can write a check and not have the money for it and only when they?

00:59:08   Person goes to cash it. Do you find out? Oh, you can't actually, you know

00:59:11   Pay for the thing and he said yeah

00:59:13   you not only do you have to have that money and pretty much all cases that he's aware of the

00:59:18   Institution that gives you that standby letter of credit demands that you give them the same bank

00:59:24   That's giving you that letter of credit. You have to give them the 1 million euros

00:59:27   And so it's you got to have that money for realsie reals

00:59:30   Give it to them then they will give you that standby letter of credit and they will hold that money and the money is basically

00:59:35   Sitting there saying if Apple ever wants to take this they can take it for whatever reasons it says in there

00:59:40   You know marketplace contract or whatever, right? So you can't get by saying oh, we're good for it or whatever

00:59:46   No

00:59:46   You've got to have that in cash and you have to give it to the institution who then gives you this

00:59:52   standby letter of credit

00:59:53   So, I don't know maybe alt star has a million euros hanging around and they're gonna sail past this but yeah

00:59:58   It's it's more of a burden than we thought it was. Yeah much more

01:00:02   I mean, it's not even close to what we thought it was

01:00:04   So thank you Bobby for writing in and telling us we don't clearly work in commercial finance

01:00:09   And this I think this basically tells you the kind of entities that we should expect to actually jump through the hoops to run

01:00:16   alternative App Store in the EU

01:00:19   It's not going to be small companies and small developers

01:00:22   It's gonna be probably a very small number of pretty large entities. Yeah

01:00:28   All right. So let's talk vision Pro we again about this last week

01:00:34   Let's let's do some more and I think we left off last week our heroes

01:00:39   We're about to discuss what it's like to let other people try the vision pros. So

01:00:43   John it seemed like you had thoughts about this or you perhaps wanted to direct conversation or am I misreading you entirely you're misreading

01:00:51   You were gonna tell us all mark

01:00:52   I want to tell his story of letting other people try the vision pro and you tell your story

01:00:55   I didn't let any other people with credit visual pro because I was just an Apple star and it was just me fair enough

01:00:59   All right. So what's going on Marco? Well, so I've had a bunch of friends try this

01:01:04   You know in the last whatever it's been week or two

01:01:07   I think enough people have pointed out now the guest mode that you can put it in

01:01:11   From control center to let it to let someone else put it on without your optic ID. Basically, it's fine. I

01:01:17   Would say if Apple wants to give the guest users a good impression of what it's like to use a vision pro

01:01:24   You should probably make guest mode a little bit better

01:01:27   It's fairly clumsy to get started and it's extremely unforgiving

01:01:32   As many people pointed out if the wearer in guest mode lifts the vision pro off their face for even a split second

01:01:39   It resets it completely and kicks it back into your mode

01:01:42   So even if they like lifts up like rub their eye or just the fit a little bit too much or something

01:01:47   Once it's off their eyes, they're out

01:01:50   Did you have to put it back on as you?

01:01:52   Re-log in like with either optic ID or the passcode go back into guest mode and control center and turn it back on

01:01:57   For them to put it back on this is made especially inconvenient because

01:02:02   Every time someone puts it on in guest mode. They have to go through the entire eye setup

01:02:07   So first it has them, you know, hold the crown to align the displays

01:02:10   we discussed earlier then it has them go through the whole intro of like look at the dots and pinch your fingers and then let

01:02:15   Make it make it brighter. Look at that's again pinch your fingers

01:02:17   So it takes a while and it's and it's kind of you know, repetitive and cumbersome. So the guest mode experience is

01:02:24   Not something that you're gonna want to do frequently and I think it's important that if you're demoing for somebody else that you warn them

01:02:31   Don't take it off your face in the middle because it will reset it and have them have to start all over again

01:02:36   I wonder if that's related to so optic ID is like essentially it's like it's like a touch ID your face ID

01:02:43   But for your eyeball and I know from experience using a shared Mac in our house

01:02:47   And you probably know if you've done this on any kind of shared Mac, even a laptop. There's a limit to how many

01:02:52   Touch ID fingerprint II things you can store on a Mac and that limit I believe is determined by essentially the secure enclave and the hardware

01:03:00   So it doesn't matter how big your SSD is doesn't matter what version of the OS you're using whatever number of fingerprints

01:03:05   It is it's like seven or eight or I don't know how everybody is. That's it for the whole system, right?

01:03:10   and so like for example

01:03:12   I want to have like

01:03:13   My fingerprint work on both my wife's account in mine and vice versa because so we don't have to type in each other's passwords

01:03:18   Right, but you run out real quickly because if the kids have their own fingerprints and their accounts and you know

01:03:23   You run out, right?

01:03:23   so

01:03:24   They're not even

01:03:25   Saving the optic ID for guests so that if you give it to a guest and they try it and they take it off in

01:03:30   The next day they want to try it again

01:03:31   It doesn't like recognize them as a guest that it has seen before and boot them back into their guest mode or anything like that

01:03:36   It just doesn't even save their optic ID

01:03:38   So I wonder if a they're storing the optic ID in the secure enclave because it is biometric data presumably and B apparently

01:03:45   They're only storing your optic ID one

01:03:48   You know or two, I don't know one for each eyeball whatever and that's it

01:03:52   Guests don't get anything saved about them. So every time the vision pro sees this person

01:03:57   It's like I have no idea who you are. You're a guest to go through the whole thing

01:03:59   the other major limitation I've run into is that

01:04:03   one of the

01:04:05   best assistive tools for if you're going to be showing someone how to use vision pro is

01:04:09   You can airplay what they are seeing to a nearby Mac or other screen so you can so, you know

01:04:16   I'll have like my laptop nearby

01:04:17   So I will say all right mirror the screen of what they're seeing to my Mac and then I can see what they see and I

01:04:22   Can kind of guide them?

01:04:24   Okay, go to this section of the Apple TV app to go find the 3d videos or whatever, you know

01:04:27   You can kind of walk them through what they're seeing and what you want to show them

01:04:30   The problem is that breaks the DRM assumptions of the video player

01:04:36   So you so if you have screen sharing enabled they cannot watch any

01:04:42   video content that is DRM protected which is all video content basically that you would want to want to show them everything from Apple TV plus

01:04:49   everything from Disney like it's all DRM locked and so if it's air playing it basically

01:04:55   You know breaks whatever DRM requirement is that you're copying the screen and so not only can you not see it on the Mac

01:05:02   They can't see it on the internal displays either

01:05:05   so they can't watch 3d video content in the demo mode if you can see what they can see and

01:05:11   That is a huge limitation in part because it just kind of sucks

01:05:14   Also because as far as I could tell when I did these demos

01:05:17   You can't turn off the screen mirroring because they don't have access to control center in guest mode. There's no

01:05:24   So if you want to show them the only way I could find was to take it off

01:05:29   Reset guest mode turn off screen sharing like go through the whole process again

01:05:33   Well, what you could do is like when I was demoing for some friends

01:05:37   We were air playing to the TV like the to the Apple TV, I guess I should say that that was in the living room

01:05:42   And when you're on an Apple TV, anyway, you can you know, hit the back or menu or what-have-you button to effectively cancel screen-sharing

01:05:50   Now if you're screen sharing to a Mac, I don't know how that would work

01:05:54   I've only ever done that like once or twice, but so you may not have the same option

01:05:57   But it does work pretty well with an Apple TV where you can just basically cancel the screen sharing

01:06:03   Oh, I should try that and I didn't think to try that. But anyway, so that's it just it shows though

01:06:07   Like, you know, like this is Apple TV showing Apple's content on two Apple devices

01:06:13   It totally breaks

01:06:16   Yeah, high-definition copy protection someone put a link to it earlier that's standard has all these things about like

01:06:26   You know what?

01:06:27   It looks like it's on it don't siphon off the video off a side channel so you can record it secretly only it can only

01:06:31   Be displayed on the screen that it is handshake through through the stupid secure DRM protocol again

01:06:37   there was a reminder all this is to make sure no one ever is able to pirate video and we know of course this solved the

01:06:43   Problem of video piracy and now it is impossible to private video. Thank you copy protection. You did your job great

01:06:49   No

01:06:49   what it actually means is that a everything is available for

01:06:52   Pirating and B you're gonna want to pirate it because the legit copy you bought you can't even watch cuz it blacks out all your screens

01:06:58   And the thing is I really wish I don't know maybe that maybe I'm missing the point of how you know copy protection works

01:07:05   But I really wish that perhaps it would be impossible to see

01:07:09   The black square of content that the user was seeing on airplay

01:07:14   So in the device in the goggles, then they're seeing everything you would expect to see but the airplay mirroring

01:07:22   You're getting blackness for the you know, that the square of content or if you're doing something immersive

01:07:27   Perhaps the entire display is black or it's like a checkerboard pattern or something like that

01:07:31   I really wish you could at least do that because what you've said Marco is exactly accurate like

01:07:35   Leaving aside whether or not you can turn off airplay the first time I did this with somebody

01:07:40   You know, they go to go into I think it was Disney Plus we were trying at the time and they were like

01:07:46   Well, it's not working. What are you talking about? And then I look at this the TV and like, oh, you're right

01:07:50   It's not working and it took me a few beats before I realized

01:07:52   I bet you anything. This is DRM. And so then, you know cancelling cancelling airplay seem to do the trick if memory serves

01:07:59   And I only nerds would know that because there's no error message. It just shows it as black just black screen

01:08:04   Yeah

01:08:04   The same thing is when you take a screenshot and on your iPad of trying to take a screenshot of TV show which I do all

01:08:09   The time and I always have reminded. Oh, yeah, this doesn't work

01:08:11   And I think the reason why you can't do it you were suggesting Casey is like, oh

01:08:14   Why don't they just show it to the person but not show it to me then you got your copper protection

01:08:17   I'm assuming it has to do with the fact that essentially once you

01:08:21   Do the mirroring you have like broken the chain of trust like there's no way to do a three-way chain of trust

01:08:26   So now nothing is trusted. You have this weird forking scenario and you have you know

01:08:31   this is not on Apple and so far as Apple is just following these stupid industry standards that we have that Apple kind of has

01:08:38   To follow to work with all of the other

01:08:40   Even Apple even if Apple didn't want to do this with its own streaming service

01:08:44   Which it does but even if it didn't want to it has to work with all the other streamers

01:08:47   so they have to essentially implement this and your hardware and your everything has to be certified so this is all just so you can like

01:08:52   Watch content that's out there and it infects every part of their system as well because their whole video chain

01:08:58   And system is built on it and it's so incredibly dumb. So hopefully they'll do something to fix this

01:09:03   I mean again, especially with Apple's own apps and own streaming platforms and own OS and device

01:09:08   They should be able to fix it for that

01:09:11   Fixing it for any other streaming apps if they ever exist on vision pro. Haha will be more tricky

01:09:18   Yeah, so anyway the showing people the 3d video proved to be tough because you know, the DRM thing is annoying

01:09:25   And again, it's like it's Apple's content on their own streaming service on their devices, you know

01:09:31   They know someone maybe they can talk to and work this out

01:09:34   Otherwise like the and I do suggest for Apple the immersive 3d video should be

01:09:41   Easier to find in the TV app in the vision Pro. Oh my gosh. Yes

01:09:44   Well, I mean it's true anything in any kind of streaming service where it's like what about the thing I want to find

01:09:50   It's like never mind that have you seen these giant things that were advertising for the first two full screen folds until you get down

01:09:57   So it's an effects vision Pro to like any time you're like, hey, here's a video playing app surely

01:10:03   It will be easy to find the things that I watch frequently

01:10:05   no exact opposite it will be

01:10:07   Intentionally hard to find the things that you want because they always want to shove something new in your face

01:10:11   Never mind what you constantly watch never mind anything about what you want or your favorites or your frequency

01:10:17   It's all about what do we have to push on you?

01:10:19   Which is so dumb for vision Pro where they should be allowing you there's so little content

01:10:24   Anyway, they should just be you know, making a same point

01:10:26   But again, it's based on the same code base as the TV app and all their other platforms and it sucks everywhere

01:10:31   That's also you said a second there. There's so little content

01:10:34   That part has kind of surprised me. Like I I would have expected

01:10:39   With the launch of vision Pro I would have expected there to be more of

01:10:43   Apple's 3d and immersive content than there actually is there's actually very little of it

01:10:48   It's like a few demos basically or like, you know one episode of something like it's like, you know

01:10:51   12 minutes here and there like there there's not much content yet

01:10:56   Obviously, I'm sure Apple is gonna like stage it out, you know over the course of the year as they sell more vision pros

01:11:01   whatever else but Apple has has a lot of power here because they they are a video producer and

01:11:07   They have shown that they that they could they will make custom recording gear and record perfectly immersive stuff

01:11:14   That's custom tailored to vision Pro. That's great

01:11:17   They need to be doing a lot more of that because I think it's going to be a while if ever

01:11:22   Before they get large support from other producers of video

01:11:25   So therefore they should step up more and produce a lot more stuff for this than what we're seeing so far

01:11:31   So hopefully that's in the pipeline

01:11:32   But I was kind of surprised and a little bit disappointed that there wasn't more immersive content available at launch

01:11:39   Well, it's the chicken egg thing because even Apple's own like, you know, Creative Wing is saying wait a second

01:11:44   You want us to spend how many millions to make a show that is only possible to be watched by?

01:11:50   500,000 people on the planet like they those are the only people who have the

01:11:53   Capability of watching and you want like let me show you how much money this is per person that you're asking us to spend

01:11:58   They're like, well, you don't understand we need to like drive people who want people to buy the thing

01:12:02   I'm like, yeah, but right now they haven't bought and you can't make more than this many per year

01:12:05   And so I can see that conversation being difficult

01:12:07   Like they're not going to make a you know for all mankind in headset 3d

01:12:11   That can be watched by you and 200,000 of your closest friends

01:12:15   Because that is not you know, and they're like, oh it's for the future

01:12:18   It's the future when we sell 10 million of these things like yeah

01:12:21   But you want us to make it today and I can imagine that being difficult for them to square

01:12:25   They I think they should make more because I think it's the most compelling thing in the entire headset

01:12:30   but I bet what Apple is thinking is instead of that instead of like

01:12:35   Doing what I think would be unprecedented like trying to essentially make

01:12:39   Alicia Keys swimming shark caliber of content that I don't think has ever been made before and sort of like a long-form full

01:12:46   Television thing like with that resolution and those cameras for like a regular TV show

01:12:50   And figuring out how to do that because I don't think anyone knows how to do that. Well at this point

01:12:55   That is much more experimental than the easier thing

01:12:59   Which is we should just do sports like this where you need to get a good sports contract and as Gruber said in those things

01:13:04   But when when Apple lost out for the bid for the NFL thing, he was kind of you know disappointed

01:13:08   But now that he has vision pro he's angry about it because that is a gimme

01:13:12   You saw in the demos how good sports looks and you don't have to make that content

01:13:16   They run around in the field and they make it all for you

01:13:18   You just need to point cameras at it and you can have the cameras be I with apart and you have 17 of those cameras

01:13:23   And you put them in weird places and that is a winner and that is a big draw and you have to pay

01:13:28   Well, you pay way less money to make it

01:13:30   You just have to pay money up front to get the rights to be the one who has the cameras there

01:13:34   So I think that is a easier first path for Apple to go with this. Like how do I make compelling content for vision Pro?

01:13:40   Find a popular sport film it in 3d whether it's the NBA or Major League Soccer or whatever

01:13:47   That seems like an easy first move and I bet Apple wants to do that and is going to do that

01:13:52   Yeah, also concerts, you know other events like that's you see like, you know live events in 3d that seemed like a big market

01:14:00   including sports and other things so honestly anything

01:14:03   Hey sharks swimming in water real popular

01:14:07   I mean, I we're all kind of snarking but I we're all serious. We're all also serious

01:14:12   Like I cannot overstate, you know, I haven't done a demo of the vision pro since you know

01:14:17   The first weekend I had it because we've been just exceedingly busy the last week and a half whatever it's been but that

01:14:22   That first I think was the first day that I had it that I did a handful of demos for a couple of friends

01:14:26   the thing that

01:14:28   unquestionably sold everyone the most was that like sizzle reel of which I think we talked about quite a bit last week of all the different

01:14:34   Like immersive stuff the high the high tightrope walking lady the sharks the soccer game

01:14:40   the rhinoceros the Alicia Keys, like I

01:14:43   Know you can imagine

01:14:47   What it would be like to be watching something but as you twist your head your perspective changes

01:14:54   Right, like that's obvious an easy thing to imagine

01:14:57   but when you're actually doing it and when you're seeing the

01:15:02   Incredible fidelity of the thing that you're watching like this isn't some like 480p

01:15:08   Crappy recording because you know

01:15:11   It just can't handle anything more like it's not flickery and dim and weird like 3d movies with the glasses that you watch

01:15:16   right, I cannot overstate how incredibly impressive this stuff is and

01:15:21   Naturally, like anything that they want to put in this immersive environment

01:15:25   I'm game to at least try it and yeah

01:15:29   The Alicia Keys as Mike had said singing at you is a little bit weird, but it was also

01:15:34   Freaking cool. It was so cool. I actually have to go back and watch the whole thing

01:15:39   But I think I had said last week, you know, I skipped through several minutes of it. I just kind of

01:15:44   exact around and it was phenomenally cool and to build on what Marco was saying a minute ago like I would pay all the money to

01:15:51   Have a really good, you know, Dave Matthews or mute math or whatever concert that that's been recorded with these

01:15:57   Obelisks these white obelisks of 3d cameras. I mean I would I would give all the money and I

01:16:03   Just I cannot overstate how impressive this is as impressive as you imagine

01:16:08   It might be like double or triple that because that's how good it is

01:16:13   So the the video demos again if we get past the DRM and the having them navigate to the Apple TV app

01:16:18   Like it is a very impressive thing. I will also say before I forget that the of the two

01:16:24   straps that come with the vision Pro the fancy one with the crank and the single headband around the back the solo knit band is

01:16:31   Far better for demo purposes than the nice comfortable dual loop band because it's so much faster and easier to adjust it

01:16:40   You know, the dual loop band is like are they you get these two velcroed straps?

01:16:43   you got a you know strap pull it strap it down like that's

01:16:46   Very impractical for demo purposes the hastily assembled one is less practical than the one that they clearly designed from the beginning

01:16:53   Surprise. Yeah

01:16:55   So you want to be using the solo knit band the one with the single loop that goes around the back you want to use?

01:17:00   That for demos if you have it first I had tiff try it

01:17:02   She could not possibly be less interested

01:17:09   You know

01:17:11   nerds out there many of you have

01:17:13   people in your life that you try to demo technology for and

01:17:17   Maybe they will humor you and support you in your love for technology

01:17:22   But you can kind of tell they're kind of doing you a favor. They're they're not their hearts not really in it

01:17:28   That's how this scenario was

01:17:31   So

01:17:33   You know, she she didn't she was not impressed by the fit was not impressed by the weird

01:17:39   What she called the nose cape?

01:17:41   Like I didn't notice that until like I don't know the second or third day

01:17:46   I had it when it accidentally flipped downward. So what Marco is talking about is there's like this very thin

01:17:52   Completely like flapping in the breeze material. That's good that that sits directly on top of your nose, which by default

01:17:59   It's kind of like flipped upwards. So it's it's black against the black inside of the of the vision Pro

01:18:06   So you don't really notice it but then it can't it has give to it cuz it's just a piece of fabric and so flipped

01:18:11   Down once I was like what the hell? Oh

01:18:13   I didn't even know that

01:18:15   Like it took me a day or two before I even realized what the heck that was

01:18:18   But yes nose cape is a very good word for it or term for it. Yeah

01:18:21   Yeah, so so she wasn't super pleased with the physical side of it. It was heavy on her

01:18:27   I mean, it's not fitted to her. Did you get her a different light shield?

01:18:30   No, it's and that's and that's a fair thing

01:18:31   Like, you know, obviously like everyone that I'm having try this is trying my size to everything on it. So anyway

01:18:38   she

01:18:39   Hated having to go through the the eye tracking dot pinching

01:18:44   Introductory thing that was not fun

01:18:46   I have found also many people who try it on do not intuitively get the IPD adjustment

01:18:53   Thing where you have to like double tap the crown to confirm like you it's like hold it down and then double tap it

01:18:58   Like that especially since the instructions are presented to you

01:19:01   Probably in double vision because it hasn't adjusted yet

01:19:04   And so it wants you to look at like a diagram and understand what it wants you to do

01:19:07   But you're seeing double at that point

01:19:09   Well, actually for whatever maybe it's just me even when it's in it's like unset state

01:19:14   I find it fairly clear in in that mode. I mean close one eye obviously. Oh, yeah

01:19:18   Anyway, the funny thing is also like she's an amazing

01:19:21   Tester of my apps. She has a special talent

01:19:24   I can hand her something that works perfectly and within a second

01:19:29   She will find a way to break it which is actually wonderful as a software developer

01:19:32   Like it's that's a great quality for your spouse to have because it's a wonderful first stage of QA

01:19:37   She puts on the vision Pro and this is this is still when I had the 1.0

01:19:41   Software and I now have the 1.1 beta on it. So I don't know if this is fixed yet, but she put it on and

01:19:47   It basically immediately locked up and had to be rebooted. Oh cool. So this is still very, you know, very 1.0 kind of days

01:19:57   Anyway, so she gets through it. She basically said okay. Yeah, it's cool. But why would I want this?

01:20:02   Even even after she saw the shark. She actually bailed out pretty quickly

01:20:08   so I'll I

01:20:11   Had all the testers tried the dining the encounter dinosaurs quote app, which is more of like a brief 3d demo

01:20:17   This is the thing you've heard about another podcast where like you hold your finger out in the butterfly lands on it

01:20:22   So I had I had five different people try this all five of them put their finger out to have the butterfly land on it

01:20:28   It doesn't tell you to do that

01:20:29   but it kind of looks like you can and so you try it and oh look the butterfly that my finger all five people did

01:20:33   That at some point a large dinosaur comes into your field of view which can look somewhat intimidating

01:20:38   Two people that I had tried including TIFF as soon as the big dinosaur big dinosaur showed up

01:20:44   They were just like no I'm out and just like took the headset off

01:20:49   Did you show them the dinosaur before you showed them Alicia Keys and a tightrope Walker, yes

01:20:54   I couldn't find them in the Apple TV

01:20:58   Anyway, so yeah two people like noped right out of the headset as soon as the big dinosaurs showed up and the other three all

01:21:06   Tried to pet the big dinosaur

01:21:08   Yeah, so anyway that's that's roughly you know how it went everybody was fairly impressed with the 3d video content

01:21:18   Everybody was impressed by the dinosaur thing

01:21:20   I do wish there was like a little bit more like one more 3d like

01:21:25   Interactive experience to show people again. This will probably come with time

01:21:29   I assume but it is it is kind of again

01:21:31   It's I wish there was a little bit more a demo because after you watched a couple of sample things and it's like, okay

01:21:36   Well, that's kind of it

01:21:37   Like, you know, you can open up notes or my email if you want to see how that kind of stuff works

01:21:42   It's a little bit. It's a little bit awkward though. You open up photos. Oh, here's a panorama

01:21:45   You know, you can do that kind of stuff, but it's I do wish there was a little bit more demo content available

01:21:50   But again, this will probably go over time

01:21:52   Did you you could have taken some spatial video of Adam with your phone and put it in there?

01:21:56   like I did I'm kind of surprised that

01:21:58   Tiff wasn't convinced by like the birthday scene and like the you know, the spatial video of people, you know

01:22:05   Like seeing the possibilities for your own content like that

01:22:08   not really I

01:22:12   Maybe maybe she was upset with the eye tracking and the nose cape

01:22:16   It was I don't know but it wasn't it didn't really sell her and then finally I got some interesting input from Adam

01:22:22   So this is my 11 year old son

01:22:24   He is a heavy user of the quest series of VR devices had a quest 2 for a while

01:22:30   I recently got a quest 3 he barely cared first of all about using the vision Pro because there's no games

01:22:37   Like for him VR means games. Yeah. Yeah, obviously not a lot of people are gonna be buying a nearly $4,000 VR headset to play

01:22:44   Games on it as the primary purpose, but it's interesting like, you know from a kid's point of view how this is totally irrelevant

01:22:50   It's it's like a Mac Pro to a kid. Like why would I want that? He barely cared?

01:22:53   However, he did try it on he did the dinosaur demo and everything. He instantly noticed that the pass-through is

01:22:59   Better than the quest 3s pass-through

01:23:03   Only when stationary, but it's actually worse in motion

01:23:07   I have since tried his quest 3 and he's exactly right. He nailed it

01:23:11   Motion in the vision Pro in general gets very blurry

01:23:16   I've even noticed that like even when using the virtual Mac screen even when just doing

01:23:21   Computing in vision Pro if I move my head a little tiny bit

01:23:24   I noticed the motion blur and it's it's not ideal

01:23:29   It's not like a massive deal killer, but it is something that you notice and it is yet again

01:23:33   One of the ways that I kind of felt a little eyestrainy when trying to use the Mac monitor mode

01:23:38   Over just using a real Mac monitor. There is that motion blur

01:23:43   Yeah, I heard a lot of people talking about that and I do wonder could you tell whether it is like

01:23:47   Manually created motion blur. So for example a destiny

01:23:51   Has a setting and the settings menu that says do you want us to do motion blur and if you have it checked they will

01:23:57   whenever the camera moves they will

01:24:00   Artificially create motion blur by blending together frames because that's what you're used to seeing from like

01:24:05   You know cameras like film cameras or video cameras or whatever when you move them around

01:24:09   But you can turn that off and say no don't pretend you're a film camera. Don't artificially create motion blur

01:24:15   Just show me the frames which looks less like we expect from our life of watching films content

01:24:21   But if you're playing an FPS game, I find it you can see things better. So I turn it off

01:24:25   So I do wonder is Apple adding motion blur intentionally

01:24:30   Computationally by blending frames together to make it look more

01:24:33   Like how we expect it to look big or is it just like I can't imagine it

01:24:39   It's anything else because they're OLED screens

01:24:40   I imagine the response rate has to be insanely fast like every OLED so it's a little bit mysterious to me

01:24:45   But I heard this exact same complaint in many different reviews. I'm just wondering if if it's on purpose or not

01:24:50   Yeah, I don't know and I mean like the fact that it isn't just motion blurring your pass-through content

01:24:56   But it's also motion blurring the content of windows. Yeah. Well, Tom Vizzier would tell you check your motion blur

01:25:01   Everything has motion blur even lens flares

01:25:04   So yeah

01:25:04   They would motion blur the pass-through the video like the windows that ever they would motion blur everything because that's again

01:25:11   The expectation of how would it look how when you see a TV show and they pan the camera you get motion blur

01:25:16   Yeah

01:25:16   Also for whatever it's worth

01:25:17   one of the reasons why I never really spent a lot of time with the quest 2 is that I would get a little bit motion

01:25:23   Sick after a fairly short time and I when I tried the quest 3 fairly briefly

01:25:28   I had the exact same problem

01:25:31   It is obviously a huge upgrade over the quest 2 but it is not good enough for for me to avoid motion problems

01:25:37   Which I don't usually have in the rest of life

01:25:39   But for some reason quest 2 VR was not good for me quest 3 VR is also not good for me vision Pro

01:25:45   I do not have that problem at all. I have I feel zero motion problems the vision Pro

01:25:50   so a lot of might have to do with the whatever was called there was just something to the podcast that will

01:25:54   Remember to link in the show so you can find it

01:25:56   We're talking about the talk to the CEO of the company that Apple bought back in

01:26:00   2017 and they made an AR thing with pass-through and their whole stick was like

01:26:05   Like the cameras in vision Pro and most headsets are not where your eyeballs are

01:26:09   So their perspective is different than your eyeball

01:26:11   so they have to do computational stuff to sort of remap the camera's view with like an awareness of

01:26:17   What shape the world is so that it looks like you're looking through your eyeballs and not like your cheeks

01:26:22   Which is where the actual cameras are in vision Pro and that mapping I think is either

01:26:26   Not done as well or maybe even not done at all on things like the quest because pass-through is not their emphasis

01:26:33   you know, it's more of a game-playing machine and that could be making you sick because

01:26:36   imagine if your eyes saw out of the center of your cheeks and you moved your head around your brain would be like I'm not

01:26:42   Seeing what I expect to see and it's you know, get the disconnect between what you see and what you feel

01:26:46   That's possible. I mean I so I tried I would use I use the quest 3 for about maybe 20 minutes and

01:26:52   Part of that was I tried

01:26:55   Like a full-screen game and it didn't seem to be any different. It was bad there too. So

01:27:00   Anyway, so but speaking of eyes and eye placement this leads me to my last point about the demo experience, which was eyesight

01:27:07   The display of my eyes on the outside

01:27:10   I have now used it enough around my family that they have seen this

01:27:15   to to most people who have seen this it is creepy as hell and

01:27:20   So that's that's interesting. What's also interesting is

01:27:24   Once I during one of the demos I hand it to a friend and somehow it stayed logged in as me

01:27:30   I don't know how this happened

01:27:32   But somehow it's it like accidentally displayed my eyes on

01:27:37   Their head actually using it and I got to see my own eyes. Oh, that's actually kind of convenient

01:27:43   I'll be at a weird security violation

01:27:46   Yeah, so I get to see my own eyes on someone else's head as they use it

01:27:49   Let me tell you that is a strange experience to see I do not recommend that experience

01:27:54   Anyway, the eyesight though. So I was I was sitting at my kitchen island

01:27:59   Using the vision Pro for a while with my MacBook Air

01:28:02   Testing that out for a while getting some computational, you know stuff done over the weekend and Adam was hanging out like nearby in his computer

01:28:11   like down the island further and he looks over and he's like

01:28:13   Daddy, how are they doing that with your eyes? I was like, what do you mean?

01:28:17   He said how how can I see your eyes? I thought you're looking at screens

01:28:22   He was totally fooled

01:28:25   He thought that that was actually so it worked in the sense that it fooled another person

01:28:31   Who didn't realize that it was a simulation from screens. So he's only 11

01:28:37   Yeah, so like, you know, it didn't fool any of the adults

01:28:40   but it did fool someone and so I feel like it is

01:28:45   Possible to make this feature better enough in the future if they want to to maybe fool adults on a regular basis

01:28:52   But I still don't like it. I see why they did it

01:28:56   You know this I mean we'll be talking this to death over the next three years before they finally kill it

01:29:02   But I see why they did it to try to make this product less antisocial than it really clearly is

01:29:08   But I still don't think it's going to be

01:29:10   Great, but there does seem to be enough room for improvement that maybe they can make it

01:29:16   Passable so the adults won't think it's too creepy and they can just get rid of it in a few years when they realize it's not

01:29:22   Worth the weight and battery savings. Well, so here's the thing about getting rid of it

01:29:25   Obviously the end goal is how about just make clear glasses where they can see your actual eyeballs?

01:29:29   Like that's what they would like to make but we don't have technology for it

01:29:31   But you know, we do have transparent OLED screens

01:29:33   But we we don't have the confluence of technology to be available to make something that light that high fidelity with that brightest greens

01:29:40   you know a yada yada yada, but

01:29:41   The end stage will presumably be they see your actual eyes and you don't have to do all this trickery right getting rid of it

01:29:48   we obviously think for waiting cost reasons if you have to make a low-cost version of this that's an easy way to save money, but I

01:29:54   as weird as eyesight is and as janky as it is and I do think it's pretty janky because I saw a lot of people

01:30:01   doing it in the Apple Store and

01:30:03   You know, it's it's dim. The lenticular lenses only show a couple different images from different angles, so they can't cover them all

01:30:10   So sometimes your eyes don't look like they're in the right place depending on what angle you're on

01:30:13   But it serves an important function to make it so other people are aware when you can see them

01:30:20   Like that's that's important

01:30:22   That's important for the like how socially acceptable is this because we don't like

01:30:26   Seeing people with their eyes totally blacked out the same way

01:30:29   It's considered kind of rude if someone's wearing really dark glasses all the time and you're talking to them and you want to have a serious

01:30:34   Conversation you just want to take off the sunglasses so you can see their eyes

01:30:37   It's just an instinctive thing that we have

01:30:39   It's not the end of the world sunglasses exist and we don't hate everybody who wears them

01:30:42   But wearing dark sunglasses during an important conversation is rude

01:30:46   Considered rude for a reason right or wearing dark sunglasses indoors or at night as the song goes

01:30:51   so

01:30:54   The function I think they can never really like the need for it will always be there until we can see your eyes

01:31:00   The need for that will always be there how it's implemented. There is some flexibility. So

01:31:05   even if they don't ditch it entirely for a cheaper and lighter model you can imagine a

01:31:10   Much much simpler version of eyesight that shows like two big cartoon eyeballs

01:31:16   In fact Apple has patents related to this exact thing and maybe they even prototyped and thought it was dumb

01:31:20   but boy you can make that way lighter if you do like two monochrome E Ink screens on the outside of the goggles look like

01:31:26   Googly eyes don't even pretend to look like your eyes or even like I mean

01:31:29   I think it was in their patent like text like a text display that says I can currently see you or whatever

01:31:34   You know, I mean like why don't just put actually Google Google eyes on there. It's they're much lighter and cheap

01:31:38   Yeah, well, yeah, but but the thing is you want it to be switchable because you it's trying to communicate to people

01:31:44   When can you see me and when can you not see me?

01:31:46   I kind of wish they had this for AirPods where they can tell when when audio is playing them when audio is not playing in

01:31:51   them and so I think that

01:31:53   That the utility of that feature will always exist as a question of how important is it is it important enough for you to pay?

01:31:58   X amount more for it is important for you to add the Y amount of weight

01:32:01   But I don't think we'll ever get to a point where we say

01:32:04   There is no utility being able to tell when people can see you. There's always utility in it

01:32:09   It's just a question of what is the correct trade-off to get that functionality and I think you can get a lot of the benefit

01:32:15   Not the emotional I can see your eyes benefit, but at the very least the binary can this person see me or not?

01:32:20   Benefit you can get that with way less weight and way less cost than they're currently doing and I do wonder every time I see

01:32:27   This is the are these CG eyes that much better than monochrome googly eyes

01:32:33   I mean, they're a little bit better

01:32:35   But I think monochrome googly eyes would be easier to see at a glance when I was seeing people do their demos in the Apple

01:32:41   Store and you get close enough to them to be like in the person range or whatever

01:32:44   So you can see their eyeballs and they can see you when they're doing the pass-through

01:32:47   Sometimes if you're not at the right angle, and there's so many like specular highlights on that stupid shiny thing

01:32:52   You can't even see what the heck, you know, you can't see the dim image on the screen through the lenticular stuff

01:32:58   Whereas if they were monochrome high contrast googly eye eyeballs

01:33:02   Or at least I could see them from every angle and know

01:33:05   When they're totally immersed with the blue wavy stuff now and when they can actually see me

01:33:09   So I think unlike the touch bar, which is my opinion needed to die and be rethought

01:33:14   I think the things that eyesight is trying to do are

01:33:18   Worth continuing to try to do until we can see your actual eyeballs

01:33:23   I'm just not convinced that the way they're trying to do it in the very first vision Pro is

01:33:27   The right path to be traveling down with the lenticular lenses and the really dim eyes and stuff like that

01:33:34   So we'll see what they do for version 2 and if they drop it from one of them

01:33:37   We'll see how much that model is frowned upon because it doesn't have that feature

01:33:43   But I'm I'm not as anti eyesight as other people because I definitely see the point of this feature

01:33:49   And I think that point is always going to be relevant. Yeah, I'd actually like to build on what you said

01:33:53   I am I am Pro eyesight like it's not perfect by any stretch of the imagination

01:33:58   But for all the reasons you enumerated I think it's absolutely worth it

01:34:02   like I think it is useful to get that visual cue whether or not the other person is paying any attention to you and

01:34:09   Get that visual cue whether or not that person is in an immersive environment. Like I think these are all really useful things

01:34:15   Yeah, it looks janky. There's the both of you have said yeah, it's not as bright as it should be

01:34:19   yeah, occasionally it looks like your eyes are not where they're supposed to be but I

01:34:23   Think this is the best that we can do right now and I don't think if Apple can make this better

01:34:29   I don't think that this is a bad path to go down now. Maybe there's other better paths

01:34:34   I'm not saying that this is definitely the winner

01:34:36   But I do think that they've gone down the right path

01:34:39   I do think this juice was worth the squeeze and I do think that it makes the device that much more

01:34:46   appealing for

01:34:48   Regular people and that includes me like I I think I would like this device less if it didn't have eyesight

01:34:53   Even knowing that eyesight is janky and weird. In fact, I would argue in some ways

01:34:58   It's almost better that it's drinking weird because then we can all have a good laugh about how janky weird it is

01:35:01   Well, if you think about this is another sad reality of some Apple today with its restrictive policies and what can and can't be produced

01:35:09   In fact, I just saw someone get division Pro app rejected because what they made look too much like the Mac OS dock or something

01:35:14   So of course Apple rejected it

01:35:16   anyway, if if vision Pro

01:35:19   We travel back in time and it's the Mac of the late 80s and early 90s

01:35:24   There would be APIs that people would either discover or Apple would publish most likely people would discover for controlling that front screen

01:35:31   and we would have

01:35:33   talking moose eyeballs out on the front Yoda eyes like

01:35:37   because they would hack the they would hack the you know,

01:35:40   they would find the API for finding where your eyes are pointing and peep and people would figure out how to use that screen and

01:35:44   We would have tons of fun third-party apps doing different kinds of cartoon eyeballs

01:35:48   And guess what all those silly apps made by indie developers

01:35:51   Distributed for free or just for fun

01:35:54   Would be in a perfect lab for us collectively as a community to figure out

01:36:00   How does it work or cartoon eyeballs good? Should we try photo realistic?

01:36:03   How do these screens work right that kind of sort of laboratory of?

01:36:06   Allowing people to try things and then Apple gets to watch it all happen and then pick the winners and incorporate them into the OS

01:36:13   Is how the Mac got to where it is today and all of Apple's post Mac platforms have been essentially denied the opportunity

01:36:20   To allow that to happen and the only people who can come up with ideas are Apple because they keep all those API's

01:36:25   Themselves and if you try to submit an app with private API's they'll reject it

01:36:28   And even if you try to submit an app that doesn't use private API's

01:36:31   But it looks kind of like the doc they'll reject that but they're like we haven't thought of that yet

01:36:34   so no, we don't want you third-party developer to ever try anything like that and that really annoys me because I

01:36:39   Would like to see fun things in that front screen

01:36:41   Even if it is a scrolling text message that says I can currently see you I can currently see you know

01:36:46   Like who knows what the right choice is obviously Apple prototype the whole bunch of them

01:36:49   But again, you look at those patents, which means they did all that stuff internally what they shipped is the current eyeballs

01:36:54   But I'm willing to believe that there are other ways to communicate some or all of that information

01:37:01   Better and more cheaply and with less weight

01:37:03   Do you think though like you know you mentioned air pods?

01:37:06   Earlier and how nice it would be if people could tell whether you could hear them or not

01:37:10   But I think that also is a kind of interesting counterpoint to this even being

01:37:14   An achievable goal because we've had air pods now for a while. I think people still don't know

01:37:22   When and whether you can hear them with air pods and it still makes people feel weird and and what we learn is that the

01:37:29   Correct kind of societally polite social interaction model is if you're going to stop and talk to somebody while wearing air pods

01:37:37   You should take them out even if you could hear them

01:37:40   You should take them out just so that there's no ambiguity

01:37:42   So they so they know

01:37:44   You can hear them and that you're not listening to something else and I think the same thing is going to be true of vision

01:37:49   Pro you maybe you you know some people might be aware of this weird

01:37:54   I display on the outside and what this indicates versus not indicating

01:37:58   But for most people if someone's coming up to you and wanting your attention or to have a conversation with you

01:38:03   The right move is to take off the vision Pro not to try to teach society

01:38:08   Oh this this means I can see you well, but I think there's a big difference in years in the eyes because

01:38:15   There's nothing to indicate whether ears are accepting sound and other than like you so I see things in your ears

01:38:20   That means you can't hear me, but we all know that's not true because especially if you're not wearing our parts Pro

01:38:24   Having earbuds doesn't mean you can't hear anything, but we all know when someone's looking at us because we can see their eyes pointing at us

01:38:31   That's why Apple's choice to try to do photo realistic eyes

01:38:33   Removes the need for you to understand what the googly eyes mean or know that a green light means that the camera is on

01:38:40   All right like they don't require any of that they just require what your son did which is like hey

01:38:45   I see your eyes that probably means you can see me

01:38:47   That requires no kind of training

01:38:50   But there's no there's no expectation that you could ever look at somebody and know by looking at their ears

01:38:54   Whether they can hear you

01:38:56   There's just there's just not that but the eyeballs tell you so with the eyeballs is a clear solution

01:39:00   So like just show the eyeballs and again the solution being how about having clear glasses where they can literally see your eyeballs

01:39:05   Just show the eyeballs cartoon eyeballs may be a little bit higher learning curve

01:39:10   But and as for the AirPods

01:39:12   I think what society has determined based on my experience wearing AirPods is that

01:39:16   Everyone assumes that you can always hear them. That's my experience both in and out of my house

01:39:20   I have AirPods on my ear every time I take a dog walk and not a single time as anyone even

01:39:26   Considered the fact there might be a podcast playing they just start talking to me and this also happens inside my house

01:39:31   But my family doesn't care

01:39:33   But like and I'm amazed and like you these are not small white earbuds. You can see them

01:39:38   There's no hat covering them and they're like I just assume you can hear everything I can say and then I have to quickly go

01:39:42   Up and pinch the thing so I can actually hear what they're saying in turn and pause the podcast or whatever

01:39:46   The ears is a much more difficult situation because there's no

01:39:51   Sort of obvious way to indicate anything you would have to be learned but eyeballs. There's an obvious way

01:39:58   We just haven't been able to pull it off that well yet, and I think that I think that's probably why Apple didn't do

01:40:03   You know text or funny symbols or cartoon things and they're

01:40:08   Ideally Apple would like to make that image as realistic as possible so that someone thinks I can faintly see your eyes through the really dark

01:40:15   Ski goggles you're wearing outside for some reason weirdo

01:40:18   By the way there is totally a way they could do it with AirPods

01:40:22   They just haven't what they need to do is put an OLED color screen on the outside of each

01:40:27   And yeah, and just have it when you're in transparency mode just have it show a simulated image of

01:40:33   An ear and so it just disappears of the inside of your ear. I mean I mean yeah

01:40:38   Yeah, I like that. I guess the problem is even just seeing someone's ear

01:40:42   You don't know whether they can actually hear you or not because they have those ear earplugs that are like shoved away down your ear

01:40:46   Canal you know what I mean, or you know you could be hard of hearing right and so like another thing with like

01:40:51   You can kind of tell that with people who can't see you because they're if they can't see you

01:40:55   They're not gonna point their eyes at you

01:40:57   Which is like the sign if you see someone's eyes move to you

01:41:00   And they're looking at you you assume they can see you because if they couldn't see you

01:41:04   They wouldn't know where to point their eyes. You know what I'm saying. It's just like there's much less to learn there

01:41:08   Whereas seeing the gross waxing inside of people's ears. I'm not sure if that's much of an indicator

01:41:13   But you could be good if you have like if you did hit your wax problems

01:41:17   They could put a little camera in there, and you could use the AirPods

01:41:20   It's one of those the real the doctor tool call where they stick in your ear is that something a scope is

01:41:25   It's a something a scope for sure

01:41:27   All

01:41:29   Right so do we want to talk about Fitz law yeah, this was an something that came up on dithering

01:41:35   John Gruber Ben Thompson's podcast and they were talking about Fitz law

01:41:39   Which they insisted on pronouncing Fitz's law because the person's name is F I T T s and the correct way to possess a size

01:41:46   That possess a size that's it

01:41:48   Is F I T T s apostrophe s which you pronounce as Fitz's law, but I'm sorry

01:41:54   I'm old and I've been saying Fitz's law for my entire life and the Wikipedia page even says it is often cited as Fitz's law

01:41:59   So that's how I'm gonna say it anyway

01:42:01   Fitz's law for those who aren't a Mac user in the 80s is a thing that says that

01:42:05   The ease of targeting something with a mouse is proportional to the size of the target

01:42:10   Which kind of makes sense if you have a big target and you time people get your mouse into this area

01:42:16   And it's a big giant area

01:42:17   It's real easy for them to get the mouse into it and if the area is like two pixels by two pixels it takes so

01:42:22   Much longer because they move the mouse over to it

01:42:24   But then overshoot then they got it back up and you adjust and adjust and finally get into the two little pixel target

01:42:28   But if it's a really big area like a quarter of the screen

01:42:30   Real fast people can move the mouse cursor mouse pointer into it real quickly

01:42:34   this is research from user interface from the 80s back when the Mac was new and they were trying to figure out the best way to

01:42:39   Define interfaces and the reason it comes up in the context of the Mac is one of the things the Mac interface had from day

01:42:44   One is the menu bar at the top of the screen and this is always cited as a great example of Fitz's law

01:42:50   Because you can just jam your cursor up against the top of the screen

01:42:53   this is before multiple screens anyway jam your cursor up against the top of the screen and

01:42:58   You don't have to care when the mouse cursor stops

01:43:02   It will hit the top of the screen and the cursor won't go off the edge

01:43:05   And so essentially the menu bar has infinite height from a targeting perspective when you plug the numbers into Fitz's law

01:43:10   It's like okay the menu bar is this many pixels wide how many pixels high is it don't put in?

01:43:15   34 pixels or however high the menu bar is it's infinity pixels high because all the person has to do is slam the mouse cursor up

01:43:21   To the top and then they just need to worry about the X position because the Y position is taken care of for them with one

01:43:26   flick of the wrist, that's the canonical example of Fitz's law and

01:43:30   It's always shown to say like what are the value of the screen edges like the dock being on the edge and how you can

01:43:37   slam the cursor to the bottom of the dock and even though it looks like there's a tiny little gap between the bottom of the

01:43:41   Screen in the dock and it's still clickable area because they want to take advantage of Fitz's law if the dock wasn't like that

01:43:46   And if like the bottom pixel of the screen was not clickable that would make the dock harder to target for people

01:43:52   So this came up in the context of vision Pro

01:43:54   Both with your eyeballs and with cursors saying well, there's no menu bar in vision Pro

01:43:59   And so that's maybe one of the reasons that all the targets seem to be a little bit larger because there are no screen corners

01:44:05   to flick a cursor into

01:44:07   And there's no menu bar at the top to slam your cursor up against and it also came up in the context of eyeballs

01:44:13   And saying does Fitz's law apply to eyeballs bigger targets are easier to you know

01:44:19   to look at or whatever that might have to do with the accuracy of

01:44:23   Being able to look like there's an accessibility control where you can enable a cursor that supposedly shows where your eyeballs are

01:44:30   But I bet that is also smoothed out because the uncertainty about where your eyes are looking and how they dart around

01:44:36   Is surely even noisier than the cursor that they will show you

01:44:39   But they have to kind of guesstimate and smooth the way you're looking right so bigger targets

01:44:44   Give you a bigger margin of error and that makes sense

01:44:46   but the key difference between your eyeballs and your hands and arms and when controlling a mouse or a trackpad is

01:44:53   that your limbs

01:44:56   Because of what we use them for in daily life are accustomed to having something that stops them

01:45:02   So if you're reaching for a doorknob, you're gonna fling your hand in the direction of the doorknob

01:45:07   And you're gonna start slowing your hand down as it approaches where you think the doorknob is

01:45:10   But you also know that once you start getting close to the doorknob and you start to feel it

01:45:14   The thing will eventually stop your hand is the doorknob itself. You're reaching for a light switch

01:45:19   You're putting your hand on the wall. You kind of know where the wall is again

01:45:23   You slow your hand down as it approaches the wall

01:45:25   but you have the full expectation that eventually

01:45:27   Your fingertips are gonna touch the wall and then you'll know where the wall is and you'll complete the motion

01:45:32   And then you'll feel the pan on the light switch and you'll find it where your limbs

01:45:36   Hit into things gently you hope but you can rely on

01:45:40   Them finding something and that thing stopping them the menu bar functions like that in the virtual world

01:45:48   You drive your arms upwards and it doesn't actually stop your arm

01:45:51   Your arm goes up on the mouse pad, but the cursor your virtual finger does stop

01:45:56   But your eyes have a different job as you wander around the world when your eyes dart from one place to another

01:46:02   Looking over there looking to see someone coming up your driveway looking back at the TV

01:46:07   There's nothing in the physical world that is stopping your eyeballs

01:46:11   Your eyeballs always have to stop on their own if they if you dart your eyeballs up to the menu bar

01:46:16   The infinite target of the menu bar does not stop your eyeballs

01:46:21   Nothing stops them except for your skull and the length of your muscles or whatever. So the job your eyeballs have done for the entire

01:46:27   Time you've our entire species has existed and all mammals that have eyeballs and everything

01:46:32   They have to be able to move to position and stop on their own. Whereas our limbs have always been able to rely on

01:46:40   Essentially making contact with something whether it's the ground the wall the light switch

01:46:46   Pulling a fruit from a tree, whatever it is that you're doing your limbs have always had something that stopped them

01:46:51   and so it's interesting that

01:46:53   vision OS is an environment in which

01:46:56   fits law for the primary pointing device of your eyeballs is

01:47:00   essentially irrelevant because your eyeballs are really really good at going somewhere quickly and

01:47:07   Stopping on their own and they don't need the help of a screen edge or another thing to slam against

01:47:13   like our hands and limbs do I don't know if this has any consequences for the interface I

01:47:18   presumably has consequences for

01:47:21   When you use a mouse, for example inside vision Pro

01:47:24   Because then you're not using your eyeballs

01:47:26   But now your cursor

01:47:28   Need something to slam against but I assume when you do it in the virtual screen on the Mac if there is no vision OS

01:47:33   Window above you it will stop at the top. Well, it'll stop at the top

01:47:37   It'll stop at the top as long as your gaze remains on the virtual display if I'm not mistaken

01:47:42   I mean I could try this out if we really care but suffice to say to the best of my recollection

01:47:46   As long as you are focused somewhere on the Mac virtual display window you are

01:47:53   limited to keeping your mouse in that display now that works both ways though in

01:47:58   That if you glance to say you're left to look at slack or something like that while you're still mousing about

01:48:04   Well, your cursor is going to try to jump over to that slack window

01:48:07   even if it's a native slack window that you know a native vision OS slack window and so that occasionally can be

01:48:12   Little bit frustrating. I don't know maybe that's a little dramatic of me to say but a little bit off-putting maybe that you know

01:48:17   I'm trying to mouse to the upper right hand corner of this 4k screen which you know

01:48:21   I may have made quite large in my vision OS world

01:48:24   But then I glanced to the left to look at the right or what have you I glanced to the left to look at the vision

01:48:29   OS native slack and next thing I know my cursor is in the slack window because as far as the vision

01:48:34   You know vision OS is concerned

01:48:35   well

01:48:36   That is the active surface right now and it's trying to use universal control to pull the mouse into what I'm looking at which does

01:48:42   Make sense, but it's not exactly what you would expect. You don't expect your cursor to just jump

01:48:47   You know, I don't know a thousand pixels to the left all of a sudden just because you've moved your head and look somewhere else

01:48:52   Yeah

01:48:52   Another one of the disparities that division OS brings up that a lot of people have been talking about in their reviews

01:48:56   I mean we talked about last time with like having to continue looking at something and not glance off somewhere else until you've completed the

01:49:02   click operation for example and people have been generalizing that to the idea of

01:49:06   taking something that is

01:49:09   Traditionally input device our eyeballs. We use them to take in the world around us. They're an input device and

01:49:15   Overloading it and saying guess what eyeball you're now also an output device

01:49:20   You now also determine the position of the cursor in a virtual world our eyeballs unless you're Superman are not output devices

01:49:27   They do not shoot lasers from them

01:49:29   You can't affect the world with more Cyclops

01:49:31   So I'm standing and where you look with them doesn't affect future operations by for example your arms

01:49:36   It's like well, I looked up to the right and then I snapped my fingers and the thing I was looking at burst into flames

01:49:41   No, that doesn't happen anywhere, but a division always does so we are being asked to both use them as an input device

01:49:48   Which is why we're glancing all over the place to scan things or whatever

01:49:50   But also they are I wouldn't call it an output device

01:49:53   It's kind of they're trying to use the reverse but like what we call the mouse we call the mouse and input device

01:49:57   But that's from the perspective of the computer

01:49:59   it provides the computer with input so our eyes are both an input device for our brain and

01:50:04   Also, they are an input device for the computer and an output device for us and that is not something that we're used to

01:50:11   Tell me about command tab

01:50:14   I don't think people were talking about oh

01:50:15   I'm on vision OS and I'm hitting command tab and I wish it worked and maybe in the next version it will and it doesn't do

01:50:21   Expect your things and this made me think about

01:50:23   Window layering in vision OS we talked about it before our marker was like you do not want to have a bunch of overlapping windows

01:50:28   It's a big mess. I tried it a little bit when I used vision Pro

01:50:31   I tried it more in the simulator to get a feel for it and I was kind of surprised at how I

01:50:37   Guess I didn't notice this before I had to use the simulator for ages before but I guess I hadn't done

01:50:41   You know, I wanted to talk to her test it, you know, here I am. I'm a mac Pro

01:50:44   How many windows can open so I went in the vision OS simulator?

01:50:47   I'm like, how how did they implement window layering here? And so I just hope started opened a bunch of windows

01:50:53   It's my core skill set apparently

01:50:55   How it would handle things

01:50:59   And you know, so some interesting things we already know about as we discussed before

01:51:03   How are we many many shows about before the vision for I was even released we were going through the developer documentation

01:51:08   It was like oh by default in vision OS when you push a window far away from you it

01:51:13   Vision OS will try to maintain

01:51:15   The same visual size like the field of view of the window

01:51:19   So essentially when you push the window far away

01:51:21   It will make it bigger as you push it farther away so that so that it fills the exact same field of view

01:51:27   So if it's like if it's 15 degrees of your field of view and you push it back 5 feet

01:51:31   It will still be 15 degrees in your field of view, which means the window will be larger that you can override that

01:51:36   You can make it not do that. Right, but that's one of the behaviors they suggest for your windows

01:51:40   So right away pushing windows farther away from you and pulling them towards you

01:51:44   They maintain the same visual size in some ways

01:51:47   That's just like the Mac when I have a stack of a hundred windows and I bring the back one to the front

01:51:51   It doesn't change size. It becomes quote-unquote the frontmost window. It draws in front of the other windows

01:51:56   It gets the big drop shadow

01:51:58   But it doesn't change size and ditto if I bury that window underneath a hundred windows

01:52:03   It doesn't shrink because it's not getting farther away. This is what I was getting at last time about like on the Mac

01:52:08   We have lots of windows

01:52:10   But we conceptually consider them to essentially be like pieces of paper like they're all

01:52:14   Pretty much at the same depth and yeah, it's magic because you can pull the one from the bottom up to the top

01:52:19   but if I was to look from the side, I would say

01:52:22   This is a stack of paper and then all the paper are touching each other. There's no space between them, right?

01:52:26   Which is why the magical metaphor of like I click on the back comes forward like it works for us

01:52:31   It's like it's just kind of like I took that piece of paper out and slipped it in front of the other ones

01:52:35   But I did it real quick and you didn't see it

01:52:37   so the metaphor works for us. In Vision OS if you make a big mess and have a bunch of windows and some of them

01:52:43   are far away and some of them will close up and you have this huge stack of windows, which is the thing that you can

01:52:46   do and

01:52:47   One of the windows is like it's way in the back like in the simulator

01:52:51   I was pushing it like you can push them through the back wall

01:52:53   but I was trying to stay inside the room one of them is way against the back wall and then like 17 windows between me

01:52:58   and that window and I want that window to quote unquote come to the front and I

01:53:03   Click on or tap on or whatever the hell. I'm in the simulator. So it's weird

01:53:07   Activate the window that's way in the back. What happens kind of surprises me

01:53:12   What doesn't happen is that window does not suddenly leap to the front in 3d space. No, it stays pinned against that back wall

01:53:20   It stays 10 feet away from me, right?

01:53:22   It also doesn't just start drawing on top of the other windows, which would look kind of weird

01:53:27   But it's the thing you can do what it does is it draws in front of everything, but then it fades out all the windows that are

01:53:36   Ostensibly in 3d space in front of it so that you can see the window that's against the back wall

01:53:43   By essentially making ghosts out of all the windows that would be blocking the view which is really weird

01:53:48   Like it doesn't move the window

01:53:50   It doesn't make it bigger

01:53:53   You don't see it animate forward and suddenly it's two feet away from you and then it animates back

01:53:57   But it wants to essentially bring it to the front and this in the context of command tab

01:54:02   Like what would it mean to command tab you'd be command tabbing

01:54:05   You're like, oh suddenly the wind the front most active window is the window that is currently buried behind seven windows

01:54:10   It's five feet away from me

01:54:11   How does that become frontmost and they don't walk that window up to you go do to do to do here comes the window

01:54:17   It's walking through all the other now that window is two feet in front of you

01:54:20   Which they could do because of the whole size maintenance thing

01:54:23   The window would slowly shrink as it moves towards you, but you wouldn't notice because it's moving closer to you

01:54:27   So it's maintained the same visual size

01:54:29   But you'd see like the drop shadow

01:54:31   For example if that window is now two feet in front of you and style against the back wall

01:54:34   But instead they draw that window in front of everything else and fade everybody out like they're a ghost

01:54:38   So what it means is if you have a lot of windows open and you pick one of them and it is not

01:54:43   Literally physically the frontmost the other windows become ghosts the other windows fade away and you can't see them and they come up

01:54:50   It's not just the part that is drawing over but even the edges of them get all fuzzy or whatever and it's super weird

01:54:55   It's kind of like if you had a stack of a hundred text edit windows and you pulled the one in the back to the front

01:54:59   And instead of that window just drawing in front of them all the other windows faded away and became ghostly and that one drew in

01:55:06   Its current position in the back, but with the ghost windows faded out in front of it. I

01:55:12   don't know if this is if this is the correct approach, but this is apparently what vision Pro does now and it explains Marco's

01:55:19   warning last time was like you don't want to run a bunch of windows because that

01:55:23   metaphor and design is

01:55:26   Has no precedent in the 2d space

01:55:30   It's what they decided to do in 3d and I guess maybe they tried all the other ways and they were worse

01:55:35   but it is weird and it does make it so that having lots of windows open is much less tenable because

01:55:43   It won't move them. It won't essentially when you say bring to front and Mac parlance

01:55:48   It will never actually bring that window to the front. It just sort of like it's like plowing

01:55:54   It's like a particle beam that blows away all the other windows and fades them out and disintegrates their matter

01:55:58   so that you have a clear shot at that window that is five feet away from you on the back wall and then when you

01:56:03   Pick a different window all those

01:56:05   Dematerialized windows come back into being and stop being ghosts and start drawing themselves again, and I find it extremely weird

01:56:12   and

01:56:13   Not for me at least in the simulator a comfortable way to manage a lot of windows

01:56:16   Yeah, when I was at the library using this thing

01:56:20   I put myself in the position where I had a couple of windows layered on top of each other and I was seeing that ghosting

01:56:24   And whatever and that was the first time because I was using that Mac virtual display at the same time

01:56:28   that was the first time that I had the

01:56:32   The presence of mind to hit alt tab or excuse me command tab

01:56:35   well, my windows are showing to hit command tab and

01:56:39   and try to you know tab between the windows and of course that didn't work for nothing and

01:56:44   I took me a second realize what I had just done and why it was wrong, but

01:56:48   Outside of you know a bunch of windows on top of each other in 3d space and trying to move between them

01:56:53   I can't say I've ever reached for command tab for any other reason

01:56:56   But that is the one really good way and reason to use it

01:57:00   Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to do anything. But yeah, but if it did like what it would do is

01:57:05   Fire that particle beam and plow its way through all the other windows without moving any of them

01:57:10   So you have a clear line of sight on the one window that is essentially going to draw in front of all the other ones

01:57:15   even though it is still behind them and like it's literally behind them like you can get up and walk over and stand in the

01:57:22   Space between the windows like it's spatial computing, but they like they haven't figured out a way

01:57:29   You know the fake metaphor I just said of like the paper stacked or whatever like that's not based in reality

01:57:34   but it's close enough like the stack of paper analogy like if you had a bunch of papers out and you wanted the one in the

01:57:39   middle you take it out from the middle of the pile and you put it on top and like

01:57:43   You can imagine that's what's going on with all these pieces of paper that are windows on your thing

01:57:47   But if you had a bunch of you know

01:57:49   five foot by three foot

01:57:51   magic glass things floating in your living room and they were all stacked and some of them are against the back wall and some of

01:57:56   Them were in the middle and some of them are real close to you and you want it to get at the one in the back

01:58:00   I

01:58:01   Mean, I suppose you could have it

01:58:03   Fly towards you and pass through the other ones and now that one is the front post and then it could fly in the back

01:58:08   But how do you maintain those positions? Would you want it to fly there?

01:58:11   Would you want the other ones to fly out of the way and part like the Red Sea so you can see that one?

01:58:16   Or do I guess you want all the other ones to become weird ghosts so you can see through them to the one in the back

01:58:21   it's really weird that their

01:58:23   Spatial computing thing is like I have no respect for the spatiality of this world

01:58:28   Yes, you can position windows

01:58:30   But when you ask to see one of them, I am NOT going to move things spatially

01:58:34   To get make your view better of that thing. I am just going to dematerialize

01:58:39   Partially dematerialize the things that are blocking your view

01:58:43   So that I can draw that one in front of the other windows and it doesn't feel that weird to you

01:58:47   But honestly, it's pretty weird

01:58:49   Thank you so much to our members who supported this entire episode. You can join us at ATP FM

01:58:57   Slash-join, there's lots of benefits to being a member. Please consider joining us. Once again, ATP that FM slash join

01:59:03   Thank you so much for listening and we will talk to you next week

01:59:06   Now the show is over they didn't even mean to begin because it was accidental

01:59:16   Accidental

01:59:20   John didn't do any research Marco and Casey wouldn't let him because it was accidental

01:59:27   It was accidental

01:59:29   And you can find the show notes at ATP FM

01:59:34   And if you're into Twitter

01:59:37   You can follow them at

01:59:40   CAS EYL

01:59:43   ISS so that's Casey lis ma RC. Oh ar m

01:59:48   anti Marco Arman

01:59:51   sir AC

01:59:54   SAC recuse

01:59:56   So a few times during the episode I mentioned that I had gone to the library to do some work and I've also been

02:00:13   Working on I got a little sidetrack doing some adding some features to regular plain old call sheet

02:00:20   Which just got released which by the way, if you're interested in how tall actors are or and or your name is Merlin, man

02:00:26   Go get the latest update because where possible I show how tall actors are and Merlin seems very excited, which I'm very happy

02:00:32   What what is your data source on?

02:00:34   Wicked data actually so the same thing that that Wikipedia uses or I don't know the relationship between the two

02:00:40   But it's part of the Wikimedia Foundation as far as I know and yeah

02:00:42   Wicked data has some actors data a lot I would say but not everyone but

02:00:47   Anyway, that's not the point. The point is outside of that distraction

02:00:51   I've been doing a lot of vision Pro work because now that I have the vision Pro now that I have my hilarious

02:00:56   $300 developer strap I've been putting both to good use and trying to work on the vision Pro native version of call sheet and

02:01:05   this this is you know as an aside, we don't need to unpack this right now because it could take hours already running long, but

02:01:14   Running a branch that you're not doing a good job of keeping up to date with Maine and then trying to bring it back in

02:01:21   Line with Maine like a month or two later not fun my friends not fun to the point that I actually

02:01:27   Abandoned like I still have it but I abandoned my initial vision Pro branch the same one that I used when I went to a lab

02:01:33   I've abandoned that and basically

02:01:36   manually replaying a lot of those changes in part because I've got different opinions about what I should do and in part because

02:01:41   Even even though it's only been a couple of months. There's been such a divergence between

02:01:44   Maine or in in this branch that it's just it's a mess. It's an absolute mess

02:01:49   Anyway, I keep getting myself distracted

02:01:52   The point is what was my experience like doing, you know writing code and in trying to get work done both at the library and at home

02:01:57   Because I found that even when I'm at home, even though I've got you know, 15 K's if you will of screen here

02:02:05   It's actually much more easy and and there's a lot less

02:02:10   Lot less friction to

02:02:12   Write code and run it in the vision Pro when you're when Xcode is also in the vision OS world

02:02:18   And so I've been using Mac virtual display for that the developer strap like I had said on the show

02:02:23   Even though I am NOT in love with the price

02:02:25   It is worth it if you're doing any real development because it seems to work much much much better

02:02:29   When I was at the library, I had a very weird thing though

02:02:33   So I have I want to say it's an anchor it's out of out of reach from where I'm sitting

02:02:37   But I have one of those

02:02:40   Two chargers that I use I don't use an official Apple charger. I have I think it's an anchor charger that has one like I

02:02:46   Don't know maybe 100 watt

02:02:49   USB-c port for a computer like a 30 watt port or thereabouts for an iPad or phone or what-have-you and it also happens to have

02:02:56   a USB a port

02:02:57   And what I was doing the library was I had plugged

02:03:00   mag safe from the you know

02:03:04   100 watt slot to the computer a just general USB C connection from the 30 watts to the battery for the vision Pro

02:03:12   and then of course I had a

02:03:14   Different USB C cable going from the vision Pro developer strap to my computer no hubs or anything like that

02:03:20   That's that's all it was and I had my air pods in and when I finally decided to commit to using the developer strap

02:03:27   I was getting this incredibly odd feedback like a like a like a very high-pitched humming sound

02:03:34   That I found was only the case when I had

02:03:37   The computer and the battery pack plugged in and if I unplugged the mag safe or if I unplugged the battery pack it went away

02:03:43   I don't think this has happened since so I don't know if my library happens to have very dirty power or something like that

02:03:48   But it was the weirdest thing and I noticed it several times at the library. That was weird thing number one weird thing number two

02:03:57   So I really enjoyed working in a fully immersive environment in part because the room I was in was wide

02:04:03   but but shallow so, you know, it was probably um, I don't know 10 ish feet so a couple of meters a little bit more than

02:04:11   A couple of meters wide and like less than a meter, you know less than three feet deep or no

02:04:16   Maybe there's a little more than three feet. I know it was not a lot. It was you know wide but but not very deep and

02:04:20   When you're trying to put windows around when you're not immersed you're running into the wall

02:04:26   Like it'll do it, but it just looks weird. And so being immersed was way way way better

02:04:31   I am a pretty darn good touch typist many many moons ago you and I did or you the three of us did a

02:04:37   Like a typing race thing what I think on the air or maybe we did it off the air and compared notes after the fact

02:04:42   But I'm a pretty good typist. I'm no Jason Snell, but I'm pretty good

02:04:46   I don't need to look at my my hands when I type that being said when you're fully immersed

02:04:51   Finding your keyboard is harder than you think. Yes

02:04:55   You've got hands and arms, but you don't have a keyboard, right?

02:04:58   It's it's actually kind of frustrating how difficult it is to find the keyboard

02:05:02   Yeah, like I don't realize how much I need to glance at the keyboard until I'm trying to do that

02:05:07   And then I realize oh, man, I actually do glance down a lot

02:05:09   It's like it was people who buy the keyboards with key caps that have nothing on them to show off

02:05:14   Well, how about how about you can't even see the whole keyboard?

02:05:16   No, yeah, because that's the problem is like to like align myself with the feel of what you know

02:05:20   Where my fingers even go that's where I found myself when I'm in vision pro kind of missing sometimes

02:05:25   Yeah, I feel like that's that's a good upgrade that like so they have obviously the vision pro detects your hands and your arms

02:05:30   Apple detecting its own keyboards. I feel like that is a solvable problem. Yeah

02:05:35   Yeah, because this was on the laptop keyboard and actually the only other keyboard that I use is the

02:05:39   The whatever 104 key whatever it is with touch ID here at home and those are the only keyboards I use

02:05:45   So yes, it should have been able to detect it. Like it's a fine first worldiest of first world problems

02:05:51   But I couldn't find the friggin keyboard and this happened not irregularly and yes

02:05:56   I'm aware of the little bumps on what is that the F&J keys?

02:05:58   You got to find the keyboard enough to find the bumps first though. Exactly exactly. I could not have put it better myself

02:06:04   I think you are slightly kidding. But no, that's exactly right. Also quick aside John

02:06:08   When did the didn't the bumps used to be on D and K or something like that years ago Apple?

02:06:13   Apple had them has them in different positions than other

02:06:16   Keyboards do and I think they've changed over the years

02:06:19   But yeah

02:06:19   Because I vaguely remember when I was a kid

02:06:22   Using Apple keyboards drove me nuts because it was under my middle fingers instead of my pointer fingers like the little lumpies or whatever

02:06:28   Anyways, couldn't find the damn keyboard air pods were having a little bit of feedback, which again, I don't think I've heard since

02:06:34   But one of the things is and I I don't know if I ever linked to this in the last week's show notes

02:06:38   But I put up a blog post sure. I think I mentioned it last week

02:06:40   I don't know if I linked to it, but I put up a blog post shortly before

02:06:43   Before the vision Pro came out like literally a couple of days before

02:06:46   Where I was talking about how hey, this would be really neat if I could you know

02:06:49   have this whole like array of windows around me with native of vision OS messages native vision OS slack and

02:06:56   Safari from vision OS and all that all that different various sundry windows

02:07:00   Oh, you know all around me and I can do that and it works pretty well

02:07:04   However, as many people have said and I am not the only one

02:07:10   the

02:07:12   IO or the iPad OS native apps and in this case, I'm picking on slack, but it's not just slack

02:07:17   iPad OS native apps

02:07:20   kind of suck

02:07:21   Vision OS and the thing of it is is I don't know if it's something on Apple's side or the way the apps are designed

02:07:28   Or both but and again, I'm not the first to say this but finding the touch targets is really difficult

02:07:33   Particularly I found on on slack in the upper left

02:07:37   I think I mentioned this last week in the upper left where you choose which workspace you're in, you know

02:07:42   Say relay FM or something else

02:07:44   It's really hard to get vision OS to actually activate that thing with your eyes

02:07:50   Now with that said with universal control, it's not so terrible because you can just mouse right up there

02:07:54   But the slack a slack app on vision OS I am really looking forward to and I don't even know if they've announced anything

02:08:00   But I'm really looking forward to getting that as vision OS native because I think it'll be much better

02:08:04   But yeah overall really great experience. It's a little teeny bit of a bummer when I'm at home when I'm losing

02:08:10   I'm when I'm going from 15 K's of real estate and at least having more than one window

02:08:15   It's a bummer to bring that down to one and I think we talked about last week, you know

02:08:19   There's rumblings that maybe Apple can do two windows on the same or it's you know, two

02:08:24   Anyway, it seems like especially given our the supposed revelations about the developer strap and the potential of higher bandwidth there that it could

02:08:33   Be something that comes to a later version of the OS if only for people with the developer strap. Yeah. Yeah, definitely

02:08:39   But yeah, I would love to have a second virtual display

02:08:44   But all all that being said like, you know, there's some things I would definitely tweak about this, but it's pretty nice

02:08:51   I've really been enjoying it and I wouldn't to Marcos point during the episode

02:08:56   I wouldn't necessarily choose to give up, you know, my 15 K's of real estate

02:09:01   I wouldn't necessarily choose to give up my standing desk in my situation at home, but I do like quite a bit

02:09:07   Going somewhere else to do work

02:09:10   But of course, of course that raises the question if I'm sitting on Mount Hood in the library

02:09:15   Why couldn't I sit on Mount Hood at home or at my desk?

02:09:19   And and I don't really have a good answer for that other than the the tea ceremony if you you know

02:09:24   Compare to vinyl the tea ceremony of going somewhere

02:09:27   I kind of miss like I'm very thankful and lucky that I don't have to do that every single day

02:09:32   But I like to at least once a week go somewhere

02:09:36   Wegmans Publix a library whatever and

02:09:40   This it's it's in some ways

02:09:43   It's so much nicer and better now because I feel like I'm bringing you know

02:09:46   Like a LG ultrafine 4k display with me without having actually having to carry very much

02:09:51   But the flip side of that is it's almost not even necessary anymore, which is a weird and odd feeling

02:09:58   Like I'll probably still do it

02:10:00   Even if I do, you know use the vision Pro when I'm wherever I'm going

02:10:03   But it seems a lot less necessary now than it has ever been before

02:10:07   So anyway, I just thought it was interesting to discuss

02:10:09   It's also getting out of the house right like when you're at wait when you're at Wegmans

02:10:12   Someone can't yell your name and ask you to come do something. Oh, well, it's only Aaron but your point is still fair

02:10:18   And I think leaving aside who is at my house. You're exactly right for me

02:10:23   Anyway, I really do like being able to get out of the house and go somewhere and just change my scenery and have the act

02:10:29   Of going somewhere now

02:10:31   That's because I believe in superior computers that you can move very easily and don't need to worry about carrying multiple pieces

02:10:37   Marco, I believe you are also an enlightened individual that believes in these weird funky things multiple pieces. You're bringing a headset with

02:10:45   Yeah, but I don't have a I don't have a 15-pound monitor though. Thank you very much

02:10:49   But nevertheless, I believe Marco you are also an enlightened person that believes in these funky things called laptops

02:10:55   No, he doesn't he's using a desktop laptop

02:10:57   No, I mean honestly like the for the purposes, you know, obviously I

02:11:02   Share some of your need for getting out of the house one time because we work for ourselves in our houses

02:11:07   And so it is nice to get out in the world and work or be somewhere else

02:11:11   You know on some kind of regular basis just to get yourself out of the house

02:11:15   I think using the vision Pro to do that does kind of ruin the point

02:11:20   But I think the answer is not stay in your house more

02:11:23   I think the answer is go out with a laptop and don't bring the vision Pro sometimes

02:11:27   like that's that's the answer because yeah, like I'm gonna like, you know, go work in a coffee shop or something part of the joy of

02:11:32   it is

02:11:34   interacting with the world

02:11:35   It being out there, you know seeing people saying hello to people when they come in if you've seen them before

02:11:42   Focusing your eyes on distances other than 1.3 meter

02:11:44   It's like so a part of the appeal is to be a little bit in the world now if you're using vision Pro out in a

02:11:53   Place like a coffee shop. First of all, you're already covering your eyes and immersing yourself, etc

02:11:58   Even if you're in pass-through mode you are projecting, you know, the anti-social version of yourself

02:12:03   As we've mentioned the vision Pro speakers are very open

02:12:07   And so if you need any kind of audio as part of your work if you're watching or listening to something

02:12:13   Or if you are trying to edit audio or whatever you're gonna need air pods now

02:12:17   You're covering up your eyes and your ears and sealing yourself off even more

02:12:21   I feel like at that point you aren't only being extremely anti-social to the people around you and to the business that you're in

02:12:27   But also you are then losing quite a bit of the value of being there in the first place for me in that context a laptop

02:12:35   Optionally with headphones is much better because at least then your eyesight is totally unencumbered

02:12:41   You can see everything people can see you they could they know they can see you

02:12:46   They know you can see them as it's as discussed earlier

02:12:48   I feel like you're getting more of the environment that way even if you have air pods in for whatever reason you need that

02:12:54   So again, I see the appeal very much to vision Pro for things like immersive entertainment

02:12:58   If you're gonna watch a movie bring it on a plane, I think there's a lot of arguments for that

02:13:03   But like working in a coffee shop or working in you know out in public somewhere for the sake of

02:13:09   Getting out in the world and you know getting out of your house. I don't think it's working for your purposes there

02:13:16   I think it's actually working against your purposes there

02:13:18   Don't underestimate. Like I said, like don't underestimate the value especially if you're working on a programming problem or whatever of

02:13:24   Looking out the window and you can say I can look out the window with vision Pro. It's got pass through

02:13:29   No, I mean looking out the window and focusing your eyes 50 feet away at the tree across the street while you think about a problem

02:13:37   I know you can do the thousand yard stare inside the headset

02:13:39   But it really for if you're working on computer for a long period of time. I feel like it does help to

02:13:44   Focus your eyes on a different distance even forget about the headset even just sitting in front of your max monitor

02:13:50   Don't just stare at the monitor two feet in front of you for eight hours

02:13:53   You will have a bad time like get up and walk around look over your monitor

02:13:58   I used to do this at work look over your monitor out the windows that hopefully are in your office and out in the distance

02:14:03   Look down the hallway

02:14:04   Look at your neighbor seven cubicles away and wave like it's just good to to focus your eyes at different distances to relax and to

02:14:12   Have a an environment where you can think about things and that that remains one of the weaknesses of a headset with a fixed focal

02:14:18   Length unless you're doing the defocus your eyes and have a thousand yard staring you're not looking anything

02:14:22   Which I suppose you can do in the headset. It's difficult to

02:14:26   Remind yourself to focus on different distances to avoid eye strain and honestly and you know in my programmer head

02:14:33   Looking off at something in the distance like a tree across the street is

02:14:37   somehow connected to solving programming problems in some complicated wiring that goes on when you've been a programmer for

02:14:44   20 something years

02:14:46   (beeping)