00:00:00 ◼ ► So I've been using your vision pro a lot this week? Are you asking genuinely or are you I feel like I'm walking into something
00:00:06 ◼ ► And I don't know what I'm a little scared. No, I've been using it a medium amount. I feel a little bad
00:00:12 ◼ ► Because I haven't really been using the vision pro and I feel like I'm being a bad Apple fan and a bad
00:00:20 ◼ ► Developer and a bad podcaster by not really using it much, but you think we haven't talked enough about vision pro. Is that what you're worried about?
00:00:30 ◼ ► Don't know cuz like I so so finally like I so I've been in this, you know, we're doing our house renovations
00:00:39 ◼ ► I don't want to like buy my new desk and set it up here only to move it in a few weeks or whenever we actually
00:00:45 ◼ ► Finally get out of here any day now any day now, right? Can I interrupt you? Can I interrupt you right there?
00:00:53 ◼ ► But you have somehow ended up with a bespoke monitor just for this just for this purpose not entirely wrong, but not right
00:01:00 ◼ ► All right settle in everyone let's let's hear so I had all these hopes of like, okay when the vision pro comes out
00:01:07 ◼ ► I'll use the Mac mirroring mode and cuz like I had the rental has this like, you know crappy basic
00:01:25 ◼ ► Adjustable height desks easily. Most desks are too high for comfortable computer use for me
00:01:31 ◼ ► And I would argue correct ergonomics for almost anybody, but that's a separate discussion
00:01:44 ◼ ► I don't have space to like lay everything out on the tiny little thing and I'm like I should just
00:02:04 ◼ ► I just work in that for like a month. And again, it's just it's kind of just not compatible with my eyes
00:02:14 ◼ ► That's still all in boxes and moving blankets somewhere in there. There's an old IKEA desk frame and somewhere else in there
00:02:33 ◼ ► That will be the right size and the right height like so anyway long story short dug through the garage
00:02:51 ◼ ► I also ordered another protos play XDR because that's the read the reason I mailed you the LG ultra fine
00:02:58 ◼ ► Which I'm very thankful for I'm looking at it. Literally as we speak it is plugged into my computer right this very moment
00:03:04 ◼ ► Yeah, so the reason I made it to you is that I intended to once we moved to replace it with another XDR
00:03:13 ◼ ► They haven't and I was also hoping to have been moved in five months ago. That hasn't happened
00:03:18 ◼ ► So it's been sitting in the box like waiting to be used again same same rationale like do I do I want to like?
00:03:23 ◼ ► Unpack this giant monitor from its giant box and set it up just to have to move it again in a few weeks
00:03:29 ◼ ► I'll just use the vision Pro Mac screen-sharing mode that didn't pan out the desk ergonomics sucked a few days ago
00:03:36 ◼ ► I finally was like, you know what? I think we're gonna be in this house for like three more weeks
00:03:47 ◼ ► Maybe I'll waste an afternoon and have to waste another afternoon taking them all down and moving them in three weeks
00:04:01 ◼ ► I wish I would have done it weeks ago or a couple months ago even oh my god working on a correct height desk
00:04:08 ◼ ► With a giant monitor. I am so happy for the people out there for whom the vision Pro Mac screen-sharing mode is working
00:04:19 ◼ ► It's not the case for me. And so now that I have like the real thing again. Oh my god. What a difference
00:04:26 ◼ ► Night and day in terms of comfort ergonomics my productivity my eyes working. Oh my god, it's
00:04:33 ◼ ► Fantastic. So long story short. I finally moved some furniture around that was really worth it. It's a super exciting story
00:04:40 ◼ ► I'd answer the question that you were originally asking perhaps as an excuse to tell this story, which I don't I don't begrudge you for
00:04:49 ◼ ► Have been using my vision Pro. I have certainly been using it less than I had in the first couple of weeks. I had it
00:05:05 ◼ ► But in the last week, I've gotten to the point that I've gone from actively embarrassing to well this kind of sucks
00:05:15 ◼ ► For the select few that are on the test flight and I am NOT looking for more at the moment
00:05:20 ◼ ► But thank you for asking the select few that are on the test flight. Do you have a vision Pro version? My hope?
00:05:25 ◼ ► Not a guarantee in fact probably won't happen. But my hope is that I'll have it done before my birthday
00:05:32 ◼ ► But I am actively working on it and I tell you what the easiest way in my personal opinion
00:05:37 ◼ ► To do vision Pro work is to do it using match Mac virtual display in the vision Pro environment
00:05:50 ◼ ► Maybe even like it plus plus I certainly don't like it more than three physical 5k monitors that are staring me in the face
00:05:59 ◼ ► I don't find it burdensome or bothersome in the ways that you do and as we've covered before like that's not to imply that that
00:06:16 ◼ ► Some I've gotten sidetracked with other professional nothing bad, but other professional responsibilities
00:06:24 ◼ ► But I will say that last night Erin had her monthly book club which happens in the evening time
00:06:32 ◼ ► and so I had a couple of hours to kill, you know, once the kids were in bed by myself and
00:06:43 ◼ ► Collection within Apple, you know the Apple TV app in terms of movies that I've bought which really amounts to you know
00:06:55 ◼ ► But heat is one of them and so I watched the scene from heat Marco you have not seen heat
00:07:00 ◼ ► I assume I think I might have no it's a miracle. It's a great movie. But um, anyways, I watched the bank heist scene from heat
00:07:08 ◼ ► Which was amazing and then I just I didn't want to watch the whole movie because I'd seen it relatively recently
00:07:24 ◼ ► It is not 3d or anything like that. It's just a regular 2d movie, but there is a 3d version of it
00:07:33 ◼ ► I thought maybe I was looking at the wrong one or maybe they might not they might not offer 3d version of it
00:07:41 ◼ ► Well, whatever whatever ended up happening be that user error, which it very well could have been but the one I was watching was not 3d
00:07:48 ◼ ► But it was pretty delightful, you know, this is not the sort of thing I would do if Erin was with me
00:07:55 ◼ ► I watched but I would not be sitting there with the goggles on my face watching movie while she's next to me
00:08:08 ◼ ► Who has a pretty good theory about maybe why it's not working out so well for me with the max stuff in the vision pros
00:08:15 ◼ ► Sam's dad says like a few of us Marco is blessed with perfect vision until his 40s because he didn't have to rely on glasses
00:08:21 ◼ ► He's probably more accustomed to moving his eyes than someone like Casey or John who had been burdened with glasses their entire lives
00:08:27 ◼ ► Because I think it is more natural for native eyeglass wearers to change their field of view by moving their head instead of their eyes
00:08:33 ◼ ► I believe the foveated rendering is less evident to them than someone like Marco. I can test this
00:08:38 ◼ ► Why would I not move my eyes? It's not like I don't have glasses. I can't look through the edges
00:08:46 ◼ ► I can look at the Apple menu through my glasses and the Apple menu is not warped or bent or broken or blurry or anything
00:08:51 ◼ ► Like that. It's perfectly crisp and clear. Maybe it's because I don't have progressives
00:08:57 ◼ ► But I don't the part that where this the logic falls apart is the idea that because you wear glasses
00:09:03 ◼ ► I think multi monitor people are more likely to turn their head because they have to turn their head
00:09:07 ◼ ► Otherwise, they can't see the stuff that's on the far left of their far left monitor, but I'm a single monitor person
00:09:11 ◼ ► So yeah, anyway, so I thought it was an interesting theory, but maybe John is more right than not
00:09:19 ◼ ► We keep seeing some you know various doom and gloom things about vision Pro like oh, it's you know
00:09:31 ◼ ► Somewhat frightening decline in the number of people using overcast on vision Pro over the last two weeks
00:09:40 ◼ ► Yes using the iPad version of an audio only podcast player in a virtual reality headset
00:09:49 ◼ ► but but I've seen you know, basically the week after launch is about twice as many users as I currently have this week now really
00:09:56 ◼ ► Quickly, is that basically how many people and your check-in is not the right turn turn of phrase
00:10:01 ◼ ► But how many people like checked in and open the app each day? Is that how you're computing this?
00:10:05 ◼ ► Yeah, and no matter how I smooth out Lee if I do like, you know weekly rolling average, it's the same pattern
00:10:16 ◼ ► Everyone's still figuring out what it is and what they want to do with it and what it's for and it's gonna take
00:10:24 ◼ ► You know finding its legs and and and finding like the really great things and having those great things
00:10:29 ◼ ► mature into actual developed app markets and content markets if we all buy vision pros and then half of us decide this is not
00:10:42 ◼ ► That's not like a failure of the product that just means our expectations were a little off
00:10:51 ◼ ► Every other like major new tech product category. They've all gone through similar arcs
00:10:57 ◼ ► there have been very few exceptions that were just instant hits and instant like perfect market and
00:11:02 ◼ ► Usefulness fits right right at the right at the door, you know, we've had a few complaints
00:11:06 ◼ ► I've seen a few complaints people who are like what you know, I'm so down on division Pro, you know
00:11:11 ◼ ► Why am I such a you know, evil person insulting the work of all these hard engineers or whatever and I don't really see it
00:11:19 ◼ ► That way I think this is a product that has a lot of potential most of which is unrealized so far
00:11:39 ◼ ► So, oh the watch will replace the smartphone or whatever. I'll get all my work done on my iPad
00:11:44 ◼ ► I wanted to buy a laptop and ever again like that kind of thing and what we see over and over again is
00:11:48 ◼ ► That might be true for some people but not for most and then we figure out what it is good for and it finds its market
00:11:58 ◼ ► It's way too soon to declare anything great or terrible for any particular use and it's gonna take time to sort it all out. I
00:12:15 ◼ ► Revolutionary is a bit dramatic but like revolutionary apps that that were available at launch day
00:12:29 ◼ ► IOS and I loved it. I haven't had a chance to try it on vision Pro yet, but I've heard it's very very good
00:12:35 ◼ ► But there wasn't too much like crouton is another one that I've heard is that's a recipe app that that does some really cool and great
00:12:42 ◼ ► Stuff with like timers and placing a timer like over the pot you're cooking you saw this enjoy in a Stearns video
00:12:49 ◼ ► Well, so that's what I was that's exactly where I was going with. This is that television
00:12:53 ◼ ► I don't think was available at launch although honestly, you know, we're a month later or whatever
00:13:02 ◼ ► Television is definitely very very cool. And my understanding is that YouTube support for it is coming out soon
00:13:08 ◼ ► I should back up television allows you to put one of what feels like an infinite number of TVs like physically set-top
00:13:20 ◼ ► You can just stick that in your space and have it on as like an ambient background noise
00:13:28 ◼ ► And so you can stick a TV somewhere put your own, you know video file in it or presumably
00:13:46 ◼ ► That is very strange that you've decided this this is the app to put on a television in the background
00:13:53 ◼ ► But in any case another great example this I don't remember the name of the app offhand
00:13:57 ◼ ► but I just tried earlier today some app by for flight that lets you see it puts like a disc with a
00:14:05 ◼ ► Mildly 3d version of the landscape around an airport and we'll show you real-time flights coming in and out of that airport
00:14:13 ◼ ► It's one of those things that's kind of silly and it doesn't really need the vision Pro
00:14:23 ◼ ► And it's stuff like that should be able to trace the paths for the planes to land with your finger
00:14:27 ◼ ► Yeah, right. Oh, man. I love flight control so much. That was my favorite up to this day might be my favorite
00:14:32 ◼ ► iPhone game that would have been actually a good vision Pro launch app if the people who currently own that IP
00:14:38 ◼ ► Did like flight control and it was basically just flight control but in 3d really hard to do with the hand tracking that Apple offers
00:14:47 ◼ ► But anyways, my point that I'm that I'm getting at slowly here is that I feel like we're starting to see a bunch of much
00:15:03 ◼ ► Especially unique about the vision Pro build. Well, all I'm really doing is making the iPad build
00:15:19 ◼ ► It's just it's just a very fancy iPad app and and I feel like things like television like this for flight app whose name escapes
00:15:31 ◼ ► Better examples of thinking outside the box with vision OS and I suspect over time and I think this is basically what you're saying Marco
00:15:42 ◼ ► What is this device really good for and to quickly answer the question that you've kind of implied?
00:15:52 ◼ ► But I don't know that I would have spent the money on one originally if it wasn't for you know
00:15:58 ◼ ► But I do like having it like if you if you consider that obscene amount of money awash at this point
00:16:04 ◼ ► I really like having it and I am probably going to be taking some plane travel next month and
00:16:12 ◼ ► You bet I'm gonna be watching a movie on the plane or doing work or whatever the case may be
00:16:20 ◼ ► I think I speak for Marco and seeing this, you know, if we're down on it, we sound like we're down on it
00:16:27 ◼ ► It's just everyone including the three of us slash two of us are trying to figure out where it fits in our lives
00:16:32 ◼ ► Yeah, exactly. And I think it's gonna be very much like, you know, it's to bring it back to our roots here
00:16:58 ◼ ► We don't know what to do with it Apple doesn't know what to do with it, but we can tell it's really cool
00:17:02 ◼ ► Some people have found some things to do with it already and we're gonna just grow them from here and it is largely a dev kit
00:17:08 ◼ ► For developers right now again, like I don't think there's much of an app market to speak of yet
00:17:17 ◼ ► We're not no one's gonna be able to declare this like oh this thing is great or this thing is terrible
00:17:23 ◼ ► so far unrealized potential that will just take a long time to develop like I'm talking on the order of
00:17:31 ◼ ► like it's probably going to be a couple of years before there's really like a decent amount of stuff on vision Pro decent amount of
00:17:39 ◼ ► And and certainly it's gonna take longer than that for the prices to come down and for the capabilities to get better
00:17:49 ◼ ► It's just gonna you know, it might be it might take a while for us to really see that. Yep agreed
00:17:56 ◼ ► While you were talking I pulled this item which I was gonna say for next week's follow-up
00:18:03 ◼ ► So new top item new top item breaking news vision Pro demand is higher than expected returns down to 1%
00:18:10 ◼ ► Reports 9 to 5 Mac Ming Chi Kuo writes the US shipments are expected to be between 200 and 250,000 units this year better than Apple's
00:18:20 ◼ ► Apparently according to 9 to 5 Mac Apple has asked suppliers to increase production which quote which Ming Chi Kuo believes is due to a mix
00:18:26 ◼ ► Of relatively high US demand and plans to roll out sales in other countries in the coming months
00:18:34 ◼ ► But I would expect him to know about that Apple has asked suppliers to increase production because that's his beat Apple supply chain
00:18:48 ◼ ► No one wants them sales are down or even market was saying you could get one immediately
00:18:52 ◼ ► but whatever Apple's estimates were apparently they either they either did a conservative first order and now are asking for more or
00:19:06 ◼ ► Anonymous writes I work as an applied cryptographer and have been researching this stuff for several years including deploying it into production systems at my
00:19:16 ◼ ► It's not that the data would be encrypted twice once with classical crypto like ECD H and then twice with PQC
00:19:24 ◼ ► rather two separate shared secrets are established one classical one PQC and then combined cryptographically to form a single session key that
00:19:31 ◼ ► inherits the security properties of both crypto systems with a single encrypt operation
00:19:36 ◼ ► The reason for this is not entirely to hedge against potential bugs in the PQC implementation
00:19:40 ◼ ► But also to hedge against the selected PQC algorithm itself becoming broken by continued crypt analysis
00:19:50 ◼ ► PQC selection process the algorithm is called psych as IKE which I love was broken with a ten-year-old laptop whoopsie-dipsies
00:19:57 ◼ ► So keeping the classical crypto in the equation means that you at least fall back to the security of today
00:20:02 ◼ ► Which is battle-hardened for millions of hours of research attempting unsuccessfully to break it
00:20:06 ◼ ► I thought that was neat like the because a post quantum cryptography is so new it hasn't really been battle tested
00:20:13 ◼ ► So people have ideas we think this will be you know protected against quantum computers and oops
00:20:19 ◼ ► It's not protected against a ten-year-old laptop. Well, let's try let's try again, right?
00:20:27 ◼ ► What if they messed it up or whatever, but it could just be they implemented it perfectly and but the algorithm is so new
00:20:37 ◼ ► Cryptography things like that all the weaknesses that were found in things that were once considered a state-of-the-art like, you know
00:20:46 ◼ ► Much less strong now than we thought they were back in the day and that could happen with
00:20:50 ◼ ► Apple selection of their post quantum cryptography thing. So underneath it all is the cryptography
00:20:55 ◼ ► They've been using up till now which has you know, thus far so the test of time continuing another
00:21:00 ◼ ► Peculiarity, I wanted to call out was the choice of security levels in Apple's hybrid construction
00:21:08 ◼ ► Which is roughly equivalent to the security level of an AES 256 or in NIST's parlance a level 5
00:21:14 ◼ ► But they're combining with the elliptic curve algorithm p256, which is roughly equivalent to AES 128 or level 1 in NIST's
00:21:22 ◼ ► The level terminology is confusing because Apple seems to have invented their own leveling system. That is unrelated to the levels
00:21:33 ◼ ► So they are going with the highest security level possible while keeping the lower classical crypto level presumably
00:21:39 ◼ ► This is so that they continue doing their comparatively more efficient per message rekeying on the classical portion of the hybrid construction
00:21:53 ◼ ► Just keep doing the the classical one in the you know in the way that's efficient and doesn't you know burn more resources and take
00:22:05 ◼ ► Very sound and well-considered doesn't mean that they're not gonna have to you know, take a second or third pass on it
00:22:11 ◼ ► But it's better to move now for the reasons we talked about last week that like we're not
00:22:15 ◼ ► There's no quantum computers out there now that are able to efficiently crack Apple's systems
00:22:21 ◼ ► But if someone's storing a bunch of iMessage data now by intercepting it and they have this pile of encrypted stuff that they think they
00:22:27 ◼ ► Can't read you don't want them cracking that open 10 20 years from now when they can read it
00:22:32 ◼ ► So the sooner Apple starts the big conversion of like sort of silently in the background kind of like they did with APFS
00:22:37 ◼ ► Silently in the background all your iMessage conversations will start converting to this as long as everyone who's participating them has at least iOS
00:22:49 ◼ ► John males writes something I discovered recently you can download your data from Apple in Google takeout style including Apple notes from privacy
00:22:56 ◼ ► Apple calm the notes are downloaded in a format that includes the data importing the data back into notes would be tricky. I presume
00:23:08 ◼ ► I think maybe last time I did it that was using some app or script that exports them as PDF or just exports the text
00:23:17 ◼ ► Structured very much like Google takeout, which is just sort of like a little, you know form that you fill out
00:23:26 ◼ ► You can pick like a maximum size give it to me and files no bigger than five gigabytes or whatever you want
00:23:31 ◼ ► And just like Google takeout you finish filling out the form and it says, okay, we're working on your export
00:23:36 ◼ ► We'll send you an email and it's done unlike Google takeout. This seems to take a long time
00:23:52 ◼ ► I mean Google takeout does take some amount of time, but I don't think I've ever waited more than 24 hours
00:24:00 ◼ ► I did the takeout thing because I wanted to see what format does it give it to me in any format?
00:24:05 ◼ ► It's probably better than nothing. So I may add this to my sort of annual like paranoid data dump backup of online stuff because at this
00:24:12 ◼ ► Point I have a lot of stuff and notes and I would be sad if it all went away due to some weird bug
00:24:17 ◼ ► Is this gonna be a better alternative than just having some app like read the SQLite file in Mac OS and dump it for you?
00:24:24 ◼ ► I will say like I mean part of what's in the notes is I have these nicely formatted documents with like
00:24:29 ◼ ► photos and text coloring and like in inline images and styled text and you know, like they're nice documents and so if I just had like
00:24:37 ◼ ► You know if I just dumped the text file from some blob and sequel light plus a bunch of attachment images
00:24:43 ◼ ► That's not the same thing. You know what I mean? But I will see what for on this isn't it could be equally useless
00:24:49 ◼ ► Preserves some of the fidelity of the the work I've put into some of the more complicated documents like
00:24:58 ◼ ► but there's a lot of pictures of couches in there and URLs and informations and measurements and images and
00:25:08 ◼ ► Wait, are you gonna actually buy new couch? That's major news. I mean signs say no, but
00:25:14 ◼ ► For many years now, I've been trying to buy a new couch and failing most recently we did a tour of like five local furniture
00:25:24 ◼ ► Yeah, cuz you know remind the listeners how many new couches have you bought in your entire life never bought a couch never
00:25:35 ◼ ► Grandparents hand-me-down couches currently they bought them. These are their new couches. So they bought them probably in the late 80s early 90s
00:25:42 ◼ ► They're both sleepers and they weigh a ton. Oh, yeah, you're never getting out of your house
00:25:46 ◼ ► I carried them into my house. I carried them from my grandmother's house in New Jersey into into a
00:25:50 ◼ ► You haul like rental truck and then accidentally drove it on the parkway. Sorry everybody
00:26:04 ◼ ► But what kind of any would take a truck on the parkway? Everybody knows that. Oh, I didn't realize I'm a truck now
00:26:15 ◼ ► It sounds like you are and we have not done so in the last few years and we need to not we don't have
00:26:22 ◼ ► We are in the market as well. And I don't know. I just I haven't found the one that sticks for me
00:26:34 ◼ ► Like you have to find them in a store. I did one on the sitting tour. I was like, this is it
00:26:37 ◼ ► I've candidate couches. They're all like roughly the right measurements. They have all the things I want about them
00:26:42 ◼ ► I'm gonna sit on them and you'd sit on them and you'd be like what I've said to myself was
00:26:45 ◼ ► Grandma's couch that is like torn to shreds and incredibly ugly. It's more comfortable than this
00:27:02 ◼ ► Fits you comfort wise like you have to just go to a big furniture store and sit in a whole bunch of them and you
00:27:07 ◼ ► Usually at the end of that you'll have either one or zero that you like. Yep can confirm
00:27:15 ◼ ► Writes that Marco is right. Hey calibration can prevent a magnetic watch band from throwing off the compass
00:27:25 ◼ ► I hope I pronounced that right to figure out which way they're pointing even with magnets and ferrous metals nearby
00:27:30 ◼ ► The key is that those disturbances are fixed with respect to the satellite or watch while the Earth's magnetic field is locked to the earth
00:27:36 ◼ ► Use GPS to look up the local magnetic field take measurements while rotating the device and solve for the calibration
00:27:44 ◼ ► So this could be entirely transparent to the user or it could be a prompted swirling motion the iPhone compass apps sometimes asked for
00:27:55 ◼ ► They have magnets that Apple doesn't know the strength of that doesn't matter because the Earth's magnetic field is always in the same place
00:28:03 ◼ ► Right. So even if you put different strength magnets or whatever that Apple didn't anticipate the key is
00:28:08 ◼ ► Whatever those things are pick any strengths you want they're going to be attached to the watch
00:28:24 ◼ ► Zev Eisenberg writes regarding magnets messing with the magnetometer aka the compass and watches the core motion framework can cancel it out and it's not
00:28:32 ◼ ► Just about calibration of onboard magnets at the factory all iOS devices with magnetometer
00:28:36 ◼ ► Except the original iPad also have a gyroscope core motion takes them both into account to cancel out magnets moving with the device
00:28:52 ◼ ► So this seems I mean not that this makes it any more plausible that the straps are gonna be attached with magnets
00:28:59 ◼ ► Orlando Herrera writes on a professional cinematographer and camera operator and I dabble with iOS and now vision OS development as a hobby
00:29:05 ◼ ► Based on my observations the pass-through cameras at the are at the heart of the color and motion blur issues when using
00:29:11 ◼ ► Pass-through, I suspect the shutter speed of the cameras is slower possibly to reduce the risk of triggering adverse reactions and individuals who are sensitive to strobing
00:29:19 ◼ ► You can see the degree of motion blur change based on whether or not you are in a well-lit environment versus a dim environment
00:29:25 ◼ ► You can also observe that the pass-through video motion blur is different than the motion blur of vision OS windows
00:29:33 ◼ ► Similarly, I think the vibrancy saturation depth of colors when viewing vision OS windows and content is higher than the pass-through because the pass-through color
00:29:41 ◼ ► Bit depth is lower to reduce processing time. So the device can maintain its low latency target
00:29:46 ◼ ► I imagine an improved pair of processors and a future device could increase the color bit depth while maintaining low latency
00:29:56 ◼ ► Do you find this ring true to you because I'm asking about the motion blur which I didn't notice myself is the the the pet
00:30:10 ◼ ► I mean this makes sense to me because like that the cameras on the vision Pro are I mean, they're they're fine
00:30:18 ◼ ► the the fidelity of things that are being drawn in vision OS is obviously going to be as perfect as it can be because they're
00:30:23 ◼ ► Not passing through a camera and a sensor or whatever and yeah cameras with sensors that small especially in the room is dark
00:30:30 ◼ ► They're gonna have to keep the shutters open for a longer period of time to get enough light and that's definitely gonna cause blur
00:30:35 ◼ ► But what I had heard is for some people complaining that there was a blur on things when they move their head
00:30:50 ◼ ► I noticed it in particular when trying to like scroll text and read it in Safari just you know within the vision Pro Safari app
00:30:57 ◼ ► Again, it's not like unusable. But if you notice the motion blur in other areas, you will notice it there, too
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00:33:24 ◼ ► Gottfried chin writes I recently saw an interview using metas version of personas called Kodak avatars. They are
00:33:35 ◼ ► Basically photo realistic, but the scanning process is highly complex and not feasible with consumer hardware
00:33:43 ◼ ► The interview was done using quest Pro which I assume is inferior division Pro regarding device sensors
00:33:48 ◼ ► So I wonder if Apple should offer high quality persona scanning stations in Apple stores
00:33:59 ◼ ► The quality is night and day better than the personas and I say this as a persona apologist. Well, so here's the thing about the
00:34:06 ◼ ► Avatars these Kodak avatars obviously, you know setting aside the fact that I don't know what they use to scan them
00:34:15 ◼ ► but it's not you know, as we said last time we discussed this the miracle of the personas as you take the headset that you
00:34:20 ◼ ► Bought you just pointed your face for two seconds and it gives you one. This is something else but
00:34:25 ◼ ► The uncanny value which people just throw out that phrase without re-explaining and just assume everyone knows what it is
00:34:36 ◼ ► But anyway, the idea is that as you make something more and more realistic looking it gets more and more appealing to you
00:35:10 ◼ ► It's just kind of like a wavy line craft and it's like they don't really make any strong stances about how close you have to
00:35:14 ◼ ► Get it's just a general trend. It's like things look better right up until they don't but then after you're perfect again
00:35:20 ◼ ► You know people like them and this is all about how does it feel to a person has it does it appeal to a person?
00:35:24 ◼ ► because you want your avatar to be appealing not repulsive to a person I say all this because these
00:35:30 ◼ ► Much more finely detailed much more photorealistic avatars the the codec avatars from Facebook
00:35:36 ◼ ► Are I think further into the uncanny valley than personas? Oh, they are closer to being perfect
00:35:46 ◼ ► I think they are like over the edge of the rollercoaster thing and screaming down in the middle of it like so
00:35:52 ◼ ► You know the the personas ones what they have going for them. Is that their blurriness and sort of slight cartoonish ness?
00:36:04 ◼ ► Farther up the hill, you know farther up the big dip that is the uncanny valley in that graph, you know
00:36:12 ◼ ► We'll link to the the paper about this and Facebook's video about it from was it from a couple years ago a couple months ago
00:36:22 ◼ ► But part of the problem with doing like actual photorealistic humans where there is not a bunch of like fuzzy
00:36:28 ◼ ► Gaussian blur around everything and sort of you know, a little bit of caricature is that as you know
00:36:36 ◼ ► it's really difficult to do convincing humans because we know what they look like and things like subsurface scattering underneath translucent skin a
00:36:43 ◼ ► Technology that was sort of pioneered maybe 15 years ago and is now pretty commonplace is
00:36:48 ◼ ► Necessary for you to not look like you're not made of plastic and I think this is doing that
00:36:54 ◼ ► But doing that well gets expensive real fast. And then if you see these things in motion, they're not
00:37:02 ◼ ► You'll see the video of it but you can see the actual human wearing the headset and then you see their avatar
00:37:17 ◼ ► Like maybe the mouth doesn't move quite as much and when the mouth moves like the earlobe doesn't move and you might not think those
00:37:24 ◼ ► More than just your lips moves and that's very difficult to do unless you carefully model or observe that which is why I think
00:37:31 ◼ ► Apple's personas when you look at this Apple's persona starts to look a lot more like me emojis because they
00:37:39 ◼ ► Most important parts that need to move and they've probably put in some simple heuristics of saying look
00:37:46 ◼ ► But basically every time they make this noise at this volume with this mouth sound move the earlobe a little bit or whatever
00:37:55 ◼ ► Just give me the gist of it and use what you know about how people talk to make it convincing
00:38:03 ◼ ► But hey, everyone has their own opinion on these so you should take a look at it as for the question though
00:38:09 ◼ ► Well, I think not if they end up looking like this, but either way, it's not it's not feasible
00:38:21 ◼ ► So that they should continue to work the solution the way they have you buy the device you take it home you do the scan
00:38:26 ◼ ► The privacy of your own home after you've done your hair and makeup the way you like it
00:38:32 ◼ ► They should just keep making that better rather than saying you need to come in for a three-hour session in our laser scanning booth. I
00:38:42 ◼ ► I really really do and and to me the personas which again I did I am a defender of the personas
00:38:49 ◼ ► I think that they are a pretty good idea and they work pretty well. I think the Kodak avatars look way way better
00:38:54 ◼ ► Do you think they're on the other side of the uncanny valley or they haven't dipped into it yet?
00:38:57 ◼ ► Do you know the only uncanny valley chart I'm talking about? I gotta find. Yeah. Yeah. I think that the Kodak
00:39:08 ◼ ► I think they're dipping in but if you think the personas look better than you like the personas aren't even in the uncanny valley for
00:39:17 ◼ ► Retelling of my opinion. I don't want to I don't want to imply that you feel the same way
00:39:20 ◼ ► This is kind of like a Bezos trade. I just put a link from the Wikipedia page to the uncanny valley thing and
00:39:27 ◼ ► Mean, I guess like where where is the dip? Is it like at 90 ish percent? It's a very fudgy. Yeah. Yeah
00:39:41 ◼ ► And I feel like this is comfortably on the upswing if not the top on the other side of the valley for me
00:39:52 ◼ ► That's actually a really really good point because these look about as good as like, you know
00:39:56 ◼ ► The cutscenes and last of us part two, for example, you know, that's a really good point
00:40:00 ◼ ► Actually, I think you were saying it kind of tongue-in-cheek, but I think you're right because I very rarely play any video games
00:40:05 ◼ ► I don't know what the state of the art is on this sort of stuff yet, but kind of tangentially related to this
00:40:21 ◼ ► But you know, he speaks phenomenal English and we did this in the same style as as Gruber in sandwich
00:40:28 ◼ ► Adam Lisagor on the talk show and yeah, we were doing this just with our personas and I've never met him in person
00:40:35 ◼ ► And so I don't know what he looks like and to me his persona looked completely good like completely big great even
00:40:44 ◼ ► In fact entirely because I don't know what he actually looks like like I've seen photographs of him, you know from time to time
00:40:55 ◼ ► Relationship a physical relationship with this person in so far as you've never been in the same space before it
00:41:07 ◼ ► that's probably that would be very different if I was talking to you or Marco or Mike or Jason or what have you but
00:41:14 ◼ ► But for an instance where this person who is not a stranger but is sort of kind of a stranger like I'm underselling our relationship
00:41:26 ◼ ► There's YouTube video which will English I know it's if you want to see this for yourself, but I thought it was really good
00:41:37 ◼ ► some Apple vision Pro units develop an identical crack and the cover glass reports Mac rumors a
00:41:42 ◼ ► Small number of Apple vision Pro owners have claimed that their headsets developed a hairline crack right down the middle of the front cover glass
00:41:48 ◼ ► Despite never having been dropped or mishandled and there's a link in this article that makes it pretty clear what they're talking about
00:41:54 ◼ ► Yeah, I mean this kind of thing like it looks like, you know, it's kind of a standard, you know
00:41:58 ◼ ► Manufacturing defect or weakness with like a certain stress point in the glass that probably is you know
00:42:07 ◼ ► Again, it's unfortunate but it's a version one product and of a very very complicated design
00:42:23 ◼ ► Apple has officially canceled project Titan ending a decade long and allegedly 10 billion
00:42:31 ◼ ► billion billion dollar efforts this is reported by Bloomberg and also the New York Times will put links in the show notes from
00:42:38 ◼ ► Bloomberg Apple Inc is canceling a decade-long effort to build an electric car according to people with knowledge of the matter
00:42:43 ◼ ► Abandoning one of the most ambitious projects in the history of the company Apple made the disclosure internally Tuesday
00:42:48 ◼ ► Surprising the nearly 2,000 employees working on the project. Was it really that much of a surprise? Yeah, I guess fair fair
00:42:54 ◼ ► The decision was shared by chief operating officer Jeff Williams and Kevin Lynch a vice president in charge of the efforts
00:42:59 ◼ ► the two executives told staffers that the project will begin winding down and that many employees on the team working on the car known as
00:43:05 ◼ ► special projects grouped or SPG will be shifted to the artificial intelligence division under executive John John
00:43:11 ◼ ► Giannandrea something like that. I'm sorry. Those employees will focus on generative AI projects and increasingly key priority for the company
00:43:23 ◼ ► The fact that they're taking some employee first some employees are gonna be leaving the people who knew how to build cars
00:43:27 ◼ ► I'm not sure Apple needs those people but shifting the other employees to AI projects made me think of exactly
00:43:33 ◼ ► You know, I was even thinking of blogging this but enough time because it just came out today how I would sum up
00:43:48 ◼ ► When I was a kid, I read a lot about computers and stuff and I used to read a lot about AI because who wouldn't
00:43:59 ◼ ► You want to learn about computers that are like hell 9000, but don't kill people spoiler alert. Yeah, seriously, I've never seen it. Sorry
00:44:06 ◼ ► When our computer is gonna be smart and talk like people that'll be so cool. It's all in all the science fiction
00:44:12 ◼ ► Let me learn about where computers are today. And let me tell you when I was a kid in the 70s
00:44:19 ◼ ► Stories on PBS and books that I'd check out of the library and stuff that would they would say like look here's here's this
00:44:36 ◼ ► but I can talk to it and ask it questions and it understands the sentence and it knows what the different parts of the
00:44:49 ◼ ► It's 1974 but in 1975 computer chips gonna be even better in the 1976. They're gonna be even better
00:44:56 ◼ ► You can see that in the year 2000 computer chips are just gonna be massively more powerful than they are now
00:45:03 ◼ ► And then you look at this AI thing and look what we've done now and it's so it's kind of dumb now
00:45:10 ◼ ► and so if we just follow this graph by the year 1988 computers should be smarter than any human on the planet and
00:45:20 ◼ ► You kind of realized that since the 60s or the 50s or whenever they first tried to do this
00:45:25 ◼ ► Everybody thought how 9000 is gonna be like, you know at most 20 years in the future because just look at this graph, right?
00:45:31 ◼ ► I mean, I didn't know the term Moore's law then or whatever, but I was experiencing the advance of technology
00:45:41 ◼ ► I played in the 70s were so much worse than the video games. I played in the 80s and 90s or whatever
00:45:45 ◼ ► So you I was living the progression and yet artificial intelligence before the current AI trend that is in a computer that thinks and talks
00:45:53 ◼ ► Like a person like again how 9000 but not murderous or any other things to see in sci-fi
00:46:02 ◼ ► Really believed that you know, although we what we have now is not great in five to ten years
00:46:13 ◼ ► Let's talk about this in rectus ages ago the discovering the parameters of the world. Can you move things with your mind?
00:46:21 ◼ ► Are we gonna make computers that think one of the parameters of the world was people always kind of think?
00:46:26 ◼ ► breakeven fusion and artificial intelligence are much closer than they actually are and
00:46:34 ◼ ► And you saw the same stories and everyone said it's probably five to ten years in the future
00:46:43 ◼ ► To fit to this problem. We found the right approach to flying which is like fixed-wing aircraft with engines
00:46:49 ◼ ► We found the right approach to doing math because we're getting really good at that with our computer chips that that approach
00:46:55 ◼ ► We just like that. That's the way just start scaling it, you know, and that's served us well up until today
00:47:00 ◼ ► But we haven't yet found the right approach to computers that can think and so with the car project
00:47:17 ◼ ► Cars that drive themselves are probably right around the corner. Look what we can do now
00:47:23 ◼ ► It's pretty impressive and if we just extrapolate and say if we just continue along this path and our computing resources get better like in
00:47:33 ◼ ► all of our cars are gonna have no steering wheels and they're gonna be driving ourselves because look at our progress and look how
00:47:51 ◼ ► that's why Apple embarked on this project because if that's gonna be a thing that is a big disruption to the
00:48:00 ◼ ► Making a drive that making a car that was autonomous in some way and if you're wondering why Apple thinks they should make a car
00:48:06 ◼ ► It's not because you know, they just wanted to make something in an industry like in a low-margin industry
00:48:11 ◼ ► They wanted to get a part of they're like, well this this industry is about to be disrupted
00:48:19 ◼ ► where the interview was asking him essentially about the car project or about automotive stuff and Tim Cook flat-out says I
00:48:45 ◼ ► The cars will drive themselves so many companies looked at what they had and just like the AI people said
00:49:00 ◼ ► No one knows how to make a car that can drive itself as well as humans can drive in all conditions
00:49:08 ◼ ► Waymo has cars that can totally drive themselves in limited circumstances and limited areas doing a pretty good job
00:49:34 ◼ ► We can make a car that helps you drive a little bit better and the jury's still out on whether it helps you or not
00:49:42 ◼ ► But we haven't found the right approach where it's like if we just do this for five more years
00:49:51 ◼ ► We look on the right approach for that right or planes or whatever and that's disappointing for everybody involved
00:50:04 ◼ ► Important people at Apple like Tim Cook or if you read the New York Times story, Johnny Ive
00:50:08 ◼ ► Had convinced themselves or had been convinced by the hype or the other people they respect in the industry
00:50:17 ◼ ► They thought they could do like they said look look at look at what Tesla's for example been able to do now
00:50:26 ◼ ► Maybe we can beat them to it because surely one of us is gonna crack this problem in the next five years
00:50:37 ◼ ► I don't know is the current approach the right one seems like not you could but maybe it is and we just have to do
00:50:45 ◼ ► Everyone thinks what we've done is amazing. What we've achieved is amazing extrapolate and we'll get there and this is yet another
00:50:55 ◼ ► Lots large portions of smart people in the world thinking that a thing was right around the corner and it wasn't which is weird because most
00:51:01 ◼ ► of the time if you listen to a tech podcast or you're interested in tech most of the time tech does sort of
00:51:10 ◼ ► video games got so much better like so much if you if you could take like child me and show them like a
00:51:20 ◼ ► Right that really did happen just like everyone thought it do in fact maybe even faster the internet the internet look at that
00:51:26 ◼ ► Happened so much faster than people thought it wasn't people underestimated that but sometimes if you think something is around the corner
00:51:36 ◼ ► And I think all of humanity so far has been barking up the wrong tree and getting cars that can drive themselves as well as humans
00:51:47 ◼ ► The little versions of me who are seven years old checking books out of the library about self-driving cars now
00:51:51 ◼ ► And they're gonna have to learn they guess they just didn't figure it out doesn't mean we're never gonna figure it out
00:51:57 ◼ ► Let's say Apple is taking a break for a few decades before they take another run at this because if it does become plausible
00:52:11 ◼ ► We're kind of giving up on the whole self-driving everywhere thing and we're just concentrating on limited circumstances
00:52:16 ◼ ► Everyone who has tried this has as they say in Dune they tried and failed they tried and died well
00:52:36 ◼ ► We've been saying for a long time now that we didn't really understand why they were doing this obviously
00:52:46 ◼ ► We don't really know how much progress they were making but it sure has seemed like over time
00:52:53 ◼ ► We've heard of a number of reboots and reorganizations and changing directions change. You know there's been so much
00:53:05 ◼ ► Well on that though like my 2017 video Tim Cook flat-out says we think there's going to be disruption on the automotive industry
00:53:13 ◼ ► But then the most recent reboot that we heard about and talked about in the show was Apple said yeah forget about self-driving
00:53:35 ◼ ► that basically turned out to not be the case in the time frame that they cared about and so
00:53:41 ◼ ► You know changing the project like oh, let's reboot it, but now we're just gonna make a plain old car
00:53:51 ◼ ► Even if they had gotten the self-driving part to to progress further and and that was still the plan for the project
00:53:58 ◼ ► Even then I still don't think Apple is the right company to do that for lots of reasons
00:54:14 ◼ ► fit that into their new carbon goals for instance like you know their goal with carbon neutrality is
00:54:19 ◼ ► To have their products be carbon neutral end-to-end over their entire lifetime including the energy they use during their useful lives
00:54:54 ◼ ► Infrastructure to be carbon neutral to power all their cars no and so that I feel like the the carbon plan
00:55:00 ◼ ► Was always at direct odds with the car project, and I don't know how they could have possibly ever resolved that and the other thing
00:55:07 ◼ ► Is like we've heard through a few different channels about Tim Cook really believing very strongly
00:55:18 ◼ ► Period like Apple does not make products that kill people at least you know directly obviously you can text in your phone and crash
00:55:25 ◼ ► And I think that's that's a very good thing both for the world and of course on a small level for their brand
00:55:29 ◼ ► And it's a luxury. It's a luxury for their because they're a company that currently doesn't sell things that can directly kill you, right?
00:55:37 ◼ ► And so they're getting they're thinking of getting into a business where you can't avoid that cars people dying car accidents, right?
00:55:51 ◼ ► But we also want to get into the car business. Well. I have some bad news for you about cars
00:55:55 ◼ ► There's no such thing as a car that doesn't sometimes kill people due to car accidents at least not yet
00:56:05 ◼ ► You know that's that's kind of like you're making that choice like you could just keep making phones and computers
00:56:11 ◼ ► And they're not gonna like crash into you and kill you right, but you're choosing to try for a car
00:56:19 ◼ ► We've we've been wondering for years why this project was still going on it seemed like it was a
00:56:32 ◼ ► For all the tumult this is gonna cause the actual people working on it including probably a bunch of lost jobs. That's not great
00:56:38 ◼ ► But for the company strategically and and for the leadership to have chosen a direction
00:56:43 ◼ ► I think they made the right call I kind of don't know why they didn't make it years ago
00:56:46 ◼ ► But I'm sure they had their reasons whatever the reasons were now. They've made the right call this project is seemingly
00:56:52 ◼ ► You know really finally dead, and I think it's better that they don't continue to waste all of this
00:57:03 ◼ ► A project that's very unlikely to ever be very good for them because now they have freed up that capacity
00:57:09 ◼ ► Maybe not the exact people because it's different specialties, but they've at least freed up like that
00:57:13 ◼ ► Organizational capacity that money how about that sure you know the money is a big part of it of course
00:57:19 ◼ ► But also just you know focus talent. You know like there's other other limited resources. They have
00:57:27 ◼ ► Products and and you know improvements to their other products that are much more likely to actually benefit them and their customers the car project
00:57:37 ◼ ► It was very very expensive and so if they're now redirecting that towards things like better Siri
00:57:44 ◼ ► You know which is what you know or you know whatever we're gonna call all their new AI efforts
00:57:48 ◼ ► That's way more likely to both a succeed and be to actually benefit their customers in useful ways and to benefit
00:58:06 ◼ ► They share parts they share techniques that like they share manufacturing you know strategies and things between all the different platforms
00:58:15 ◼ ► With the car it was always kind of like does this have any chance of benefiting their other products not much
00:58:24 ◼ ► It's not even clear from the outside how much carplay was shared with project. It seemed like not at all
00:58:33 ◼ ► Yeah, maybe some underlying stuff like it's it's so hard to tell and on this topic by the way not to get back into vision
00:58:37 ◼ ► Pro, but you know this is something that's come up with all the demos like when you see obviously AR kit and stuff
00:58:43 ◼ ► We saw all that coming out iOS and Mac OS. It's like. Oh, that's gonna be for the headset, right, and I'm yeah
00:58:47 ◼ ► Yes, there's a connection there right, but now that vision Pro is out, and you see universal control
00:58:55 ◼ ► Bet they did universal control for the headset, and it can't just came out earlier on Mac and iOS
00:59:05 ◼ ► Oh, I owe an iOS and the headset to interpret team adopted it, but that's the nature of things inside Apple
00:59:12 ◼ ► Between their projects when it makes sense to get the most value out of it and from the outside
00:59:17 ◼ ► It's very difficult to tell did for example universal control start with the headset team and and trickle down to iOS and Mac OS
00:59:31 ◼ ► They developed they developed universal control, and it has broad applicability across their products
00:59:35 ◼ ► And so now you look at the car project what things on in Mac OS iOS iPad OS or whatever have broad
00:59:42 ◼ ► Applicability to the car and vice-versa, and you know you go for carplay. It's like well carplay
00:59:47 ◼ ► That's got to be a thing, but because we know so little about the car and because carplay is such a odd duck
00:59:52 ◼ ► It's like maybe not even that was shared so I the best you can come up with is like maybe like whatever real-time
00:59:57 ◼ ► operating system and tooling and stuff they came up with the car they'll find a use for
01:00:00 ◼ ► But it's so hard to tell from the outside and the the synergies are not quite as obvious as like universal control or AR kit
01:00:08 ◼ ► and I think there's probably just fewer of them in general and that like that's why I think
01:00:20 ◼ ► The company might have actual other use for in much larger scales because you know we see with Apple
01:00:32 ◼ ► But still you you don't really want them like as a fan of their products and as a customer their products
01:00:45 ◼ ► We actually see that there is a decent amount of you know shared innovation between vision Pro and their other products
01:00:56 ◼ ► Whatever, we would benefit from that would be much more limited with the other products
01:01:05 ◼ ► So those people weren't even at Apple to begin with so you're not stealing them any people from other teams and because there's so little
01:01:26 ◼ ► You're not getting a new version of Mac OS because we put all those people on the phone because it's more important
01:01:29 ◼ ► Sorry, I'm sure that did happen, but to a lesser extent just because so many more people had to be hired from
01:01:37 ◼ ► I think that's part of the reason this project lasted so long like the open secret that they were doing this and
01:01:42 ◼ ► Didn't you know it didn't sideline the whole company for a decade right the company continued to do what it was doing
01:01:58 ◼ ► Project Titan didn't do that project Titan was just just like a 10 billion dollar quiet little leech off in the corner, but Apple
01:02:07 ◼ ► I mean, and it's a very different company you know in this in that decade than it was before that as well
01:02:13 ◼ ► But I do think it's interesting to consider like for years we had heard about these two
01:02:18 ◼ ► Giant skunkworks projects the car and the headset well now the car is dead, and we have the headset
01:02:34 ◼ ► And I'm sure we're gonna see more of that as the rumors indicate you know probably this summer and honestly
01:02:51 ◼ ► I think this is the time maybe to talk about this which I think will very clearly probably
01:03:02 ◼ ► People who really want Apple to make a car have been saying you know Apple if you've decided
01:03:07 ◼ ► That disruption in the automotive market is not imminent due to self-driving which I think is the correct conclusion
01:03:18 ◼ ► people and your team know how to make cool dashboard things like the new car play or you just want to
01:03:22 ◼ ► You want a new platform that you can own like you want to own the infotainment stack or whatever?
01:03:30 ◼ ► For Apple to be in the car business and part of the thing when we've talked about the car project in the past
01:03:35 ◼ ► We're like Apple's good at making electronic gadgets, and if you squint you can call a car an electronic gadget
01:03:48 ◼ ► That's that's kind of like saying like my oven is electric gadget because it has a control panel on the front of it
01:03:55 ◼ ► Travel like the whole the the skill set we're hard to do that, and that's before you even get to stuff like
01:04:04 ◼ ► Knowledge about from all of its gadgets, but it's a different scale entirely there and electrical motors
01:04:09 ◼ ► Which you know there are there are some in the vision Pro. I guess but not Apple's area of expertise for sure
01:04:35 ◼ ► Instant expertise lucid has the best power trains in the entire industry and the best EV packaging in the entire industry
01:04:51 ◼ ► How big is the engine how much power does it produce how efficient is it lucid has the best electric power trains in the industry?
01:04:57 ◼ ► They might not have the best batteries, but their batteries are pretty good Rivian is really the only game in town for
01:05:07 ◼ ► pickup trucks and truck like SUVs because you know the mainstream makers make them, but Rivian is the froofy kind of Apple ish brand and
01:05:15 ◼ ► The important thing about Apple buying both of those one. It will probably cost less money than they already spent in project Titan
01:05:25 ◼ ► As far as I know does not know how to do like all the rumors are like they're gonna build their own card like oh
01:05:37 ◼ ► Lucid we're all like the lead engineer for the Tesla Model S started lucid like they they cut their teeth at Tesla
01:05:43 ◼ ► And then they came over and did lucid Apple has done none of those things so they think out of the out of the gate
01:05:50 ◼ ► An electric car that they you know solve all these manufacturing problems before everyone else has such a head start on them
01:05:58 ◼ ► You know the PC people aren't gonna walk in but let me tell you a cell phone is much closer
01:06:09 ◼ ► I don't know that I think they shouldn't because this is low margin business and Apple products don't kill people in yada yada if they're
01:06:18 ◼ ► Much faster better way to spend that money is to save these two companies that are currently having some difficulties
01:06:33 ◼ ► If some if Tim Cook decided he's a CEO and if he and the board think that Apple should be selling EVs
01:06:46 ◼ ► you know making a car in 20 to 50 years and maybe the self-driving thing will have will be more plausible then but
01:06:52 ◼ ► Yeah, like I'm with Marco that I'm relieved that they're not doing this because once they're not making a self-driving thing
01:07:10 ◼ ► At all like nothing they've done makes me think boy. If only Apple would make a car. They'd be great at it. Nope
01:07:27 ◼ ► It's not something that you get right on the first try or the second try or the third try
01:07:32 ◼ ► car companies have been around for a long time they've had time to work out a lot of this stuff and
01:07:40 ◼ ► But like just the first the first several years of Tesla the first several years of living Rivian and lucid
01:07:45 ◼ ► manufacturing big important things like that complying with regulations making them safe reliable
01:07:51 ◼ ► Like just it's really hard and Apple has never done anything like that at that scale and it is so different
01:07:57 ◼ ► Than cell phones and computers that I don't think they could pull it off. So if they really really want to do this
01:08:06 ◼ ► You know, that's you can read the story that they tried to buy Tesla way back when so it's clear
01:08:16 ◼ ► I hope the car dream is not alive at Apple and they should just ignore this for another 50 years. Well, I think if anything
01:08:23 ◼ ► First of all, I think you're right. That would be probably the best way for them to get into it at this point
01:08:27 ◼ ► but if anything that shows why they shouldn't get into the car business because suppose tomorrow Apple buys
01:08:36 ◼ ► Okay. Now what like why why did they do that? And then how do they how do they integrate that into the rest of their?
01:08:42 ◼ ► Business. Well, it's still a massive question of like now Apple's a car company great now
01:08:47 ◼ ► Why do they want to be a car company and now now they have to deal with being a car company?
01:08:50 ◼ ► Well, but they already had that would give them two car companies that are already car companies and they're car companies with problems
01:08:59 ◼ ► Like they don't have to worry like will we make a car that people want will we make a good car?
01:09:02 ◼ ► Those two companies have already made cars that people want that are good. They're just not making money making them
01:09:07 ◼ ► Apple could you know Apple has the runway to has a little bit more runway than those two companies do
01:09:13 ◼ ► To figure out a way to start making them profitable and obviously they would integrate with them
01:09:18 ◼ ► And I think Jeff Johnson had a good snarky tweet about this whole thing, which is snarky
01:09:22 ◼ ► But also I think there's kind of a point in that why Apple might want to be in this historically low margin business
01:09:33 ◼ ► But I so wanted a car that demanded 30% of every shopping trip and refused to travel to destinations unapproved by the manufacturer
01:09:42 ◼ ► That's the kind of the reason Apple was interested in and this thing is like oh the automotive market is being disrupted
01:09:50 ◼ ► For us to find another place for one of our platforms and modern Apple when they find a place for one of their platforms
01:09:57 ◼ ► They're like we we need to have a platform which we will then leverage to extract, you know, 30% from everybody, right?
01:10:06 ◼ ► Hasn't been going that great, but they got it. They hit it out of the park once with the iPhone
01:10:11 ◼ ► And so they've used that model for every other new platform. They've tried to roll out Apple TV vision Pro
01:10:18 ◼ ► iPad I know those all kind of look like you squint and like oh, that's just an extension of the iPhone, right?
01:10:24 ◼ ► But the inside of the car the inside of any sort of mod inside of cars are becoming more looking more and more
01:10:31 ◼ ► Like a platform that Apple could participate in the trouble is if Apple doesn't isn't literally a car company
01:10:38 ◼ ► It might be difficult to pull a Microsoft and become the plot the software platform for everybody else's hardware
01:10:49 ◼ ► So why would Apple want to be in the car business at all? I think cars will continue to be low margin, but I think
01:10:58 ◼ ► You know using the terminology extracting rents from the plot the software platform that lives inside cars
01:11:06 ◼ ► Certainly every car manufacturer wants to do that. Just ask GM. That's why no one car play in the car
01:11:12 ◼ ► Skimming off the top of everything that happens inside the car that they can I'm not sure there's a business plan there
01:11:27 ◼ ► Another place for a platform is I think what would still have a chance to attract Apple to cars
01:11:35 ◼ ► But who knows like maybe they maybe the carplay project is that and they don't need to make a car
01:12:23 ◼ ► They're gonna say let's spend a sum total of roughly 20 billion dollars because that's the sum total of the market cap of the two companies
01:12:29 ◼ ► Today, let's spend 20 billion dollars on two companies that are barely keeping themselves afloat
01:12:42 ◼ ► Beleaguered, you know failing companies. Yeah, we're getting them on the cheap. But if they were good, they wouldn't be beleaguered and cheap, you know
01:12:51 ◼ ► like that their problem is they don't like their their problem is they need to get through like the
01:12:56 ◼ ► Scary growth period like the Tesla barely made it through like Tesla almost went out of business several times, too
01:13:01 ◼ ► Right, but there it takes so much capital to sort of get to get the ball rolling to work out
01:13:06 ◼ ► All the kinks and both of them are kind of on the bubble like they're probably gonna make it but Tesla just like barely made
01:13:13 ◼ ► It due to like some savvy fundraising and government mooching from Elon Musk in the right time, right?
01:13:18 ◼ ► Like it's a tough gig in the car business. So I don't think they're beleaguered because they have bad products
01:13:28 ◼ ► Making a car cost a lot of money and they're not entirely sure that they'll get past the point where like they're just plowing and plowing
01:13:35 ◼ ► In money and then they're selling a smallish number of cars for a very low or negative margin
01:13:40 ◼ ► Then it's like just kind of like Amazon's let's just give us another decade to not make any profit
01:13:48 ◼ ► Rivian and lucid remains to be seen if they will be able to find the funding to give himself that runway
01:13:59 ◼ ► Especially after having been burned by being ten billion dollars in and having not a lot to show for it
01:14:13 ◼ ► Ultimately matter but it is an interesting thought exercise of nothing else. Yeah, I mean honestly
01:14:18 ◼ ► I feel like they'll Apple will not do this because they should they're just I think they're done with cars for a while
01:14:22 ◼ ► Right, but yeah, if if someone inside Apple just demands it like just like no we need to be in cars
01:14:27 ◼ ► Which I don't think it's true because again if Tim Cook's whole reason was that there was it was about self-driving disruption
01:14:34 ◼ ► That would be the only feasible way to do it because if they didn't and they tried to make a car on their own
01:14:38 ◼ ► I think it'd be embarrassing for them because their car would they wouldn't have to worry about losing money because I got so much money
01:14:44 ◼ ► But they'd make a car and that car would have to compete with beleaguered Rivian lucid and then not beleaguered Tesla, right?
01:14:51 ◼ ► and I don't think it would fare that well because I don't think Apple is good at almost any of the things you need to
01:14:56 ◼ ► Be good at to make a good car. So yeah, I just you know, I just I think I should leave it alone
01:15:02 ◼ ► But if they don't leave alone, they should buy Rivian Tesla and heck even if they don't want to be in the car business at all
01:15:06 ◼ ► Apple should just you know, give an investment to lucid and reap it when the company comes roaring back two decades from now
01:15:14 ◼ ► Yeah, I don't know. We'll see where it goes. I think I am certainly in support of Apple
01:15:28 ◼ ► either new jobs than Apple or new jobs entirely like that that stinks but I think on the whole it's
01:15:35 ◼ ► Better for Apple to go this way. I think it might be interesting seeing people who surely are very good at
01:15:42 ◼ ► You know computer vision and an artificial intelligence thing and things of that nature working on other
01:15:55 ◼ ► Alright, I'd shared the same theory a while back and I feel like somebody to debunk tip
01:16:02 ◼ ► I wonder if the real-time OS or some of the things that they learned building a real-time OS for the car
01:16:07 ◼ ► Or used in the r1 for the vision Pro and I don't know maybe maybe not. Yeah, there was debunked
01:16:13 ◼ ► But like I think you'd have a good point with the computer vision aspect because Apple does now have a platform
01:16:20 ◼ ► And so those people on the car project who are probably super isolated from the headset project because why wouldn't they be?
01:16:24 ◼ ► Bring those people to vision Pro now because that is expert even if it's not technology that they're currently using on the cross is over that
01:16:36 ◼ ► Talent and budget and executive focus freed up from this project if you think about like what else could they do?
01:16:43 ◼ ► Even without having like good uses of the of like share technology with their other products
01:16:48 ◼ ► They could do something like pour more money into the idea of a glucose monitor for the Apple watch
01:16:57 ◼ ► Of course, if you told me what they should give the money to it's just fixing bugs in Mac OS
01:17:18 ◼ ► Our first episode in January 2024. We did like what do we expect this year to be for Apple?
01:17:23 ◼ ► And I think one of the things that we got right based on all the stories to come here now
01:17:28 ◼ ► 2024 the year when Apple sprinkles AI sauce on a bunch of stuff. I talked in a recent rectum episode about this
01:17:34 ◼ ► It's gonna come out soon. What are they gonna sprinkle it on? What will actually ship this year?
01:17:48 ◼ ► I don't think that's it because kind of like self-driving cars at this point. I would say that
01:17:53 ◼ ► They're like large language model AI stuff has proved its utility kind of like, you know smart lane holding
01:18:13 ◼ ► You can't just do more of that faster and get to how 9,000. Maybe it's a piece of the puzzle
01:18:23 ◼ ► don't think the next big thing equivalent of the car project is Apple should make a computer that thinks because nobody knows how to do
01:18:30 ◼ ► That and I don't think the current approaches are gonna get us there but all that LM stuff has proven utility
01:18:40 ◼ ► Apple needs to use that to make its stuff better in all the ways that everyone else is making their stuff
01:18:47 ◼ ► But make Siri better make image search better maybe like we know like there's no question
01:18:52 ◼ ► It does that forget about how 9,000 you can use this technology Apple to make your current products better
01:19:00 ◼ ► But I think getting a bunch of people put into that part of the organization is a good thing
01:19:07 ◼ ► So like rather than you know, the car project and the headset are both kind of like pie in the sky
01:19:11 ◼ ► We have a great idea. We think this is the future. We're gonna try to do it one of them
01:19:16 ◼ ► They shipped one of them they didn't but they're big pie in the sky things. This is not pie in the sky
01:19:21 ◼ ► This is keeping up with the Joneses. This is hey, have you noticed what everyone else is doing Apple?
01:19:38 ◼ ► If that's all that came out of this like that Apple never came up with the next new big thing
01:19:48 ◼ ► like you can extrapolate from vision Pro and say where is this gonna go and unlike self-driving and how
01:19:55 ◼ ► And you can see a fairly straightforward path of like just keep iterating on the vision Pro
01:20:00 ◼ ► With increases in technology that we expect to happen and as you know screens get better
01:20:05 ◼ ► CPUs get better like just we can see that progressing. We don't quite know how to get all the glasses
01:20:22 ◼ ► Big enough project a brand new platform that is very much more ambitious or different than competing platforms
01:20:36 ◼ ► We need to start something new and it's setting aside all the health stuff that we know they're already doing
01:20:39 ◼ ► I don't think should be like hovercrafts like or we're gonna start an airline or you know, like just
01:20:44 ◼ ► Chill out you got just can we just do the vision Pro for 10 years and see if that works out because there is a runway
01:20:51 ◼ ► There you have so many other platforms that you're working on. You're still trying to do all the health stuff
01:20:58 ◼ ► You got the app store like I don't think Apple should be looking to you know, have a rebound
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01:22:33 ◼ ► Here's to know how each of you handle this on both iOS and Mac OS and what you feel are the best clients
01:22:37 ◼ ► I feel like this is one of those as John often describes annual or sometimes semi annual
01:22:43 ◼ ► Questions that people always want to know what email clients we use and I don't know that it's changed like
01:22:48 ◼ ► Properly changed for any of us since we started recording the show in 2013 2014 creatures of habit
01:22:58 ◼ ► Briefly using whatever that one is is a mail plane that everyone loves something that everyone loves for Gmail
01:23:06 ◼ ► And then when I switched to fast mail I put that aside and went crawling back to mail that app and that's what I use
01:23:11 ◼ ► Everywhere and I thought that was the same for Marco, isn't it? I have actually really never gone for many other mail clients
01:23:18 ◼ ► Sorry, I just meant that you're all in on mail. Yeah. Yeah, I'm all in on mail that app and I am mostly
01:23:31 ◼ ► Treat email as a very kind of functional thing that I have to deal with somewhat reluctantly
01:23:37 ◼ ► And I deal with it as little as possible apples mail apps. Let me do that on their platforms with lots of you know
01:23:52 ◼ ► Like none of the email apps that are out there would do a meaningfully better job at making me hate email less
01:24:06 ◼ ► My one big feature request for Apple's mail apps having used them now for how many years
01:24:11 ◼ ► When the iPhone first shipped and the iPhone had its you know version of mail that app on it
01:24:31 ◼ ► Many times I end up having to go search on my Mac mail app instead and it will find things the iOS app will not
01:24:39 ◼ ► Find including this literally just happened today. I assume the reason why is because mail on the Mac
01:24:44 ◼ ► Downloads everything off the IMAP server and indexes everything locally whereas mail on the iPhone appears not to do that
01:25:13 ◼ ► It says download all mail and let me search all mail in the iOS mail app with the exact same search
01:25:19 ◼ ► Characteristics and results that I would get if I did it on my Mac. It's 2024. I'm pretty sure Apple can make that happen
01:25:25 ◼ ► John you still using the Gmail web client. Yeah, the main sort of performance characteristics that I'm looking for an email client
01:25:32 ◼ ► Date all the way back to you know, my the early days my very first email clients on the Mac
01:25:46 ◼ ► They what I loved on those things is they had like rules that you could apply to mail that would ferry your mail into various
01:25:52 ◼ ► Folders or whatever, but it was so frustrating when I'd have all those rules set up on my home computer
01:26:04 ◼ ► but then the rules would be on my home computer and this was before the days of ubiquitous cloud sync and it was
01:26:14 ◼ ► If you popped it from a second location the second location wouldn't have it because it didn't pop it
01:26:19 ◼ ► So now you have the same message appearing in two different places. They had to be routed the same
01:26:22 ◼ ► We should probably we should probably explain that just a little bit more because everything everything you said was accurate
01:26:30 ◼ ► So most email clients or most email servers, excuse me from I don't know 15 20 25 years ago
01:26:40 ◼ ► Generally speaking granted you could tweak this but generally speaking what would happen is your email client would go to the server
01:26:50 ◼ ► So like John was saying let's say you have a machine at home that is checking your email
01:26:56 ◼ ► Generally speaking the machine at home would check your email delete the email and then it would be living or alive
01:27:01 ◼ ► Oh those emails would only be living on that one computer if you went to any other computer because you know
01:27:06 ◼ ► You wouldn't go to a cell phone at this point if you went to any other computer and went to get mail
01:27:09 ◼ ► Well tough noogies it ain't there because it was deleted off the server in this was normal
01:27:32 ◼ ► And it would download it which is why both computers needed to have the same set of rules because as far as they're concerned
01:27:38 ◼ ► It's like the home computer downloads the message and files it away the work computer downloads that same message now these two computers
01:27:48 ◼ ► They better route it to the same place otherwise home and work will slowly get a sink like they're not even connected at all
01:27:55 ◼ ► but if they don't have the same rules as things flow in they won't go in the same boxes and
01:28:15 ◼ ► It sends a message up to the pop server so that when I go home. No no that doesn't happen. It's one way right so
01:28:22 ◼ ► Trying to deal with that just home and work being able to check my my personal email at work
01:28:37 ◼ ► And I do like routing and I do like everything to be the same everywhere right and I map you say well
01:28:51 ◼ ► I'm app servers and depending on your ISP and where your email from it was very confusing and annoying
01:29:02 ◼ ► But I wasn't a big fan entourage and Claris emailer back in the day where they did support both pop and I'm up
01:29:11 ◼ ► The server is the source of truth. I have all your email that your only email only exists in one place folders rules
01:29:27 ◼ ► Gmail Google has all your email and all your rules and all your settings and all your preferences and when you mark something is read
01:29:39 ◼ ► That is all happening on Google servers. And what it did was gave me blessed freedom to say
01:29:56 ◼ ► I don't care if it work at home on any computer that I have when I load up at gmail.com
01:30:01 ◼ ► My email looks exactly like it did the last time I left it if I marked a thing as red if I replied
01:30:11 ◼ ► I can search my email really easily and it also in the back of the day lets you import all your old email
01:30:16 ◼ ► So this is a long-winded way to say gmail. I use the gmail gmail for my email and I use the gmail web interface. I
01:30:24 ◼ ► Like the gmail web interface. I miss you know, the days of entourage and Claris emailer, but I've moved on since then
01:30:36 ◼ ► So I use the gmail web interface on my phone. I use the Google's gmail app, which is not very good
01:30:47 ◼ ► I just put the phone down pick up literally any other computer log into gmail and there's all my mail
01:30:51 ◼ ► Big proponent of gmail and it's been one of my favorite products over the years and I'll be very sad when a Google eventually cancels it
01:31:02 ◼ ► No, I bet I think I'll be dead at retired by the time they do that too much valuable data goes through
01:31:09 ◼ ► Warren McKay writes you recently mentioned Marco's love of the Microsoft ergonomic keyboard
01:31:14 ◼ ► Which I've always liked why isn't Marco constructed a do-it-yourself mechanical keyboard in the ergonomic key layout
01:31:19 ◼ ► He prefers with the switches. He wants etc. This seems like exactly the kind of project
01:31:24 ◼ ► He would love and he'd end up with the keyboard customized to his personal specifications
01:31:35 ◼ ► You like the the Microsoft ergonomic keyboard and I don't know as I get older and more crotchety
01:31:41 ◼ ► I feel like there's less space in my life for fiddly things and I'm assuming that's probably where you are, too
01:32:16 ◼ ► We're very low effort. And if I were to customize something with the world of like custom keyboard enthusiast kind of stuff. I
01:32:32 ◼ ► Even though I know there's different key switches with different volume levels. All of them are way too loud for me
01:32:38 ◼ ► I've tried them all yes, even the you know, the Cherry MX Brown or you know, whatever whatever every few years
01:32:44 ◼ ► There's a new one and people say oh this one's like this one's quieter or whatever and I try it and it's loud
01:32:47 ◼ ► So that is problem number one is that I I don't really like the the giant mechanical key switch
01:32:58 ◼ ► Relatively standard scissor mechanism of the sculpt ergonomics keys. Like that's not a problem. I'm looking to solve
01:33:05 ◼ ► I understand why people like those things. It's just not that important to me. I don't like the noise trade-off
01:33:17 ◼ ► If I would actually create an ergonomic layout that has kind of the two key elements of what makes it help
01:33:36 ◼ ► Probably a larger overall finished product and I again to create that it's solving problems
01:33:43 ◼ ► I don't have to make a result. That would be worse for my preferences. That's why I don't do it
01:33:53 ◼ ► Availability of sculpt ergonomic keyboards as we've discussed. It's kind of in flux right now
01:33:57 ◼ ► So that that could be getting better with like the the Matthias recreation or the was it in case who took over that business
01:34:10 ◼ ► You know that the Matthias recreation could be fine or could be ruined. I don't know yet
01:34:14 ◼ ► I've pre-ordered both and we'll see what happens and I still have a few sculpts left from my from my stock
01:34:20 ◼ ► My personal stock so we'll see but right now this is a problem that I don't really need to be solved
01:34:24 ◼ ► Every time I use the sculpt, I'm not thinking like god. I hate this thing. I can't wait for until there's a replacement
01:34:31 ◼ ► No, I actually like it. I prefer it and whenever they die, I just pop a new out of the closet and move on with my life
01:34:38 ◼ ► Anonymous writes as tech enthusiasts. How interested are you in LLM's and generative AI?
01:34:44 ◼ ► Or do you actually dive into these topics and do some of your own research and follow up question for which use cases?
01:34:50 ◼ ► Have you been using chat bots like chat GPT if at all and what were your experiences for me?
01:34:55 ◼ ► I'm interested. Certainly. This is the new hot thing and unlike crypto. It doesn't make me want to vomit all over myself
01:35:08 ◼ ► Nominal understanding of how it works and in a very broad and basic understanding of how it works in terms of how I use it
01:35:15 ◼ ► I don't typically do anything with generative, you know, like making images or anything like that
01:35:21 ◼ ► first trying to come up with a placeholder icon for call sheet then called flick look up I was trying to come up with a
01:35:28 ◼ ► An icon that was at least passable not to ship with but just to ship like a beta with and I
01:35:35 ◼ ► Couldn't even get something that looked even remotely what like what I wanted at the time and they all that very well could have been user
01:35:47 ◼ ► every once in a while typically to solve some sort of programming problem with something that I'm not familiar with or a great example of
01:35:57 ◼ ► how do I do this particular ffmpeg incantation because I know a lot of the things that I do regularly and
01:36:07 ◼ ► But there's a ton of things that it does in almost infinite amount of things that it does that I don't know how to do
01:36:16 ◼ ► I have a folder in Apple Notes with you know individual notes of like different recipes if you will for ffmpeg
01:36:21 ◼ ► But there's certainly times that I'm like, well how the heck do you do that and chat GPT?
01:36:27 ◼ ► Oftentimes, we'll either get it right or get me close enough that I can get it right quickly
01:36:30 ◼ ► And that's actually applicable to a lot of programming problems. So that's how that's how I've been using it
01:36:35 ◼ ► I feel like I picked on Marco first a lot recently. So John. What are you doing with this?
01:36:43 ◼ ► it's kind of you know, I tried to learn as much about them as I could without actually having any reason to
01:36:53 ◼ ► It's not my area of expertise, but I think I have somewhat of a handle on what their approach is
01:36:58 ◼ ► but the most important thing like the distinction between crypto is that these these things is large language models in generative AI
01:37:05 ◼ ► Have practical utility you can use them to do useful things. It's very obvious to everybody
01:37:13 ◼ ► I'm like crypto where it's like the useful thing is make a bunch of people a lot of money, you know
01:37:26 ◼ ► Augmentation to Google search right? So anything that I'm doing where I would be using Google
01:37:31 ◼ ► I will throw in these various large language model things into the competition just like I may I
01:37:38 ◼ ► You know put all my little voice cylinders in the house against each other and I asked them all the same question to see how
01:37:47 ◼ ► So sometimes you know when I'm programming is a great example when I'm programming very often you Google for things, right?
01:37:55 ◼ ► You know, what is the what is the order of arguments to this function? I can't remember right?
01:38:01 ◼ ► You can use Google for that and you find a stack overflow question or you find the reference documentation or you know
01:38:46 ◼ ► You could Google for it and it will probably point you to the reference docs that you can read to get that answer
01:38:50 ◼ ► one of the utilities that things like chat GPT provides is you could just ask them for the call that you want to make and
01:39:06 ◼ ► Use this bit mask for the first argument use this bit mask for the second or even based on what you asked me
01:39:11 ◼ ► So it already has found the the what order the arguments are in and it found their credit
01:39:17 ◼ ► Correct bit mask things to order together and the right things and it gives you me the result faster than if I had done that work
01:39:39 ◼ ► I could step through it in the debugger. I can see yes, it's working. No, it's not working, right?
01:39:56 ◼ ► I wouldn't have asked and so now I'm faced with the answer says all this movie came out in this year. Is that right?
01:40:05 ◼ ► But now I have to go check somewhere to see if it actually is right and if I'm gonna go check somewhere
01:40:10 ◼ ► Anyway, I might as well just start in Google and end up at the Wikipedia page or the IMDb page or whatever
01:40:28 ◼ ► How much do I just you know this result from the New York Times or The Verge or whatever?
01:40:34 ◼ ► With large language models when it just gives me the answer for fact-based things. It's useless to me because I
01:40:47 ◼ ► Don't know where that answer came from. And if it's right or if it's wrong, like there's no
01:40:58 ◼ ► They're just smooshing together a bunch of stuff and spitting out something that is plausibly an answer to the question asked
01:41:07 ◼ ► Entire useless for me in that area and I would say also dangerous because you might think you're getting the answer and even like when Google
01:41:18 ◼ ► Kind of for the same reason I've been ignoring the thing that Google's been doing for many years before generative AI which is like
01:41:30 ◼ ► So I just ignore it and I go to the plain old search results and then I have to make the judgment myself
01:41:37 ◼ ► It's in the first ten results are all like that or do I want to actually go to something more?
01:41:42 ◼ ► authoritative or if I go to the Wikipedia page is this page constantly being in edit wars and the talk page shows there's a much
01:41:48 ◼ ► Controversy about this. Does everyone agree that this movie came out on this date, right? So I do use it
01:41:53 ◼ ► I think it there is there is a bright future of utility for things like this and the the image generators the same type of thing
01:42:08 ◼ ► Description of an image and get an image back is a useful thing to do if we can get the rest of the stuff worked out
01:42:12 ◼ ► So yeah, I'm definitely incorporating it into my into my normal workflows and I have found things
01:42:20 ◼ ► Kind of like Steve Jobs said about the iPad like there should be something where the iPad is the best device to use it
01:42:39 ◼ ► There are things where right-clicking and looking it up in the reference docs is faster
01:42:48 ◼ ► Direct lookups and reference documentation blind Google searches and now right alongside there ask a large language model
01:43:12 ◼ ► I shouldn't have been spending on it really and so I had I need something quick and dirty
01:43:25 ◼ ► So I tend not to use it that much but it's a tool that I'm glad it's there when I need it
01:43:42 ◼ ► So for instance, like if I'm editing a photo of myself and I want to you know, remove like the pimple on my forehead
01:43:53 ◼ ► Involve generative AI in that kind of feature you can usually do a better job of it or other things other kind of image
01:43:59 ◼ ► manipulation things like you you have a low res image and you want to make a high res version of it and you want to
01:44:04 ◼ ► You know do whatever you can to extrapolate whatever the details might have been in a higher resolution of that image great
01:44:09 ◼ ► That's a great use of a lot of these generative AI type techniques to do things like that
01:44:14 ◼ ► So these features by themselves in like the current, you know standalone products that we see them in
01:44:25 ◼ ► but I'm looking forward to and and I already still currently benefiting from some of the
01:44:30 ◼ ► implementations of those techniques into tools that I use so again other instances like you know
01:44:36 ◼ ► If if Apple ever realized that there's five of us out there who use logic to edit podcasts
01:44:42 ◼ ► They can probably add a whole bunch of really interesting useful features to logic to make editing podcast better
01:45:09 ◼ ► I'm looking forward to advances like that, you know that being integrated into more things like one of the big hopes
01:45:27 ◼ ► I'm hoping that this year it gets substantially better because maybe they're using some AI type models to to you know
01:45:34 ◼ ► Improve their transcription. They've already been going in that direction in you know small steps here and there. So that's the kind of thing
01:45:43 ◼ ► There's gonna be fun new problems that arise that we didn't even think about that they can all of a sudden solve and it revolutionizes
01:45:54 ◼ ► Boring tasks that we've done for a long time things like as mentioned before answering emails, you know doing various media manipulation
01:46:27 ◼ ► There's tons of possible applications for the existing AI techniques even the existing models that have already been built in
01:46:39 ◼ ► They kind of can't get built without somebody okaying it like in the case of Apple being a gatekeeper over their platforms
01:47:00 ◼ ► Does the vast majority of the time for informational questions? Well, I wouldn't say it's more accurate
01:47:07 ◼ ► I can't help you or go look on the web. But honestly, I that's more that's that's the writer answer
01:47:13 ◼ ► I don't want something just giving me plausible BS when I ask a question if you can't answer it don't answer it
01:47:20 ◼ ► I do not want plausible BS when I when I asked him when that movie was released Alexa should tell me the real answer not
01:47:32 ◼ ► These awesome new AI techniques and models into the rest of our boring computing lives making them a lot better
01:47:40 ◼ ► That's where I see the most promise and yeah, we'll have some cool products along the way that are more exciting than that
01:47:45 ◼ ► But in the grand scheme of like how is it going to impact most people? I think it's gonna be more like the former more
01:47:52 ◼ ► Just making our everyday tasks better and making the tools that would that do them better
01:47:56 ◼ ► And to be clear Apple has been doing that for years and years back before the AI buzzword. They used ml, right?
01:48:04 ◼ ► The magic thing where you can I don't even know if this would even qualify for a quote-unquote AI table like subject detection where?
01:48:12 ◼ ► Apple's photo search where you can search for like, you know tin can or whatever and as I has a set of work like
01:48:16 ◼ ► That was ml and not AI but that's exactly the type of stuff we're talking about and what we're saying is hey
01:48:29 ◼ ► You can search for things like dog or cat or bed or spoon or car or parking lot, right?
01:48:36 ◼ ► But if you try clipboard you might see that. Oh, the autocomplete isn't bringing up clipboard
01:48:41 ◼ ► Well, can't I just type clipboard and the answer is no Apple has decided there's a fixed number of things where you can search for well
01:48:45 ◼ ► Technology is marched on and you can do text-based photo search a little bit better than Apple's doing it with quote-unquote AI
01:48:53 ◼ ► Technologies instead of the quote-unquote ml that they use for that before just make your existing features better mark out the transcription is a perfect
01:49:06 ◼ ► But we're just saying like keep up with the Joneses people are doing cool stuff and Apple is being left behind
01:49:20 ◼ ► Way, these things could be interesting. It's just that you know, you type words and it makes an image. Let's go
01:49:28 ◼ ► Mid journey or like oh, you know this all sorts of things that can generate images for you
01:49:49 ◼ ► So you just start typing and it's generating images and you add another word another word and add generates it generates it generates
01:49:55 ◼ ► And you might think oh, that's a fun party trick, but I'd rather have it rather let you can
01:49:59 ◼ ► I just type a whole sentence then you generate really really awesome. I don't need you to do it to me fast
01:50:05 ◼ ► Being having the thing react to you in real time with like a smaller faster model does change how the interactions feel
01:50:12 ◼ ► and this is just another example of like, you know, when I think about Apple doing stuff on device or
01:50:16 ◼ ► You know, what's the advantage of doing it locally, especially if your model needs to be smaller
01:50:30 ◼ ► Expensively requiring a network round-trip or whatever just depends on the thing that you're trying to do
01:50:34 ◼ ► So I'm very optimistic that Apple can find many many places and it's existing products where it can use these technologies
01:50:42 ◼ ► Which everybody knows Apple has been working on to make all of its products better in I guess
01:50:47 ◼ ► What mark I would describe as boring ways, but honestly, it's not boring to me if my image my photo search starts working better
01:50:57 ◼ ► You can join us and become a member at ATP FM slash join. We will talk to you next week
01:52:11 ◼ ► Maybe a slight updated design but also like tons of AI stuff. I am looking forward to this
01:52:15 ◼ ► Yeah, but what I talked about in the rectus episode was like what stuff will they have ready for this year, right?
01:52:28 ◼ ► And the big question for me is is this the year where they do the apology Siri essentially and say Siri
01:52:34 ◼ ► It doesn't suck now because that seems like the hardest one like Siri is the hardest one making like, you know, transcribing audio better. I
01:52:45 ◼ ► They could probably ship this year, but the Siri one is the big one and I honestly it's a kind of a distraction
01:52:50 ◼ ► But marketing wise and PR wise like because I would be perfectly happy if it's like this isn't the year we make Siri better
01:52:59 ◼ ► We already changed that to a transformer model last year, but guess what now it's a little bit better and searching your mail
01:53:04 ◼ ► It's a little bit better like this so many places where they can apply this to just make it a little bit better
01:53:13 ◼ ► But I'll be perfectly happy with a WWDC this year or every single piece of every single OS
01:53:36 ◼ ► Well, all this new AI stuff is breaking on the scene, but it's a little too new for Apple to do much with it
01:53:44 ◼ ► They've had you know generative AI stuff and LLMs have been really like broken into the scene now for
01:53:49 ◼ ► What about two years now or a year and a half, you know, it's it's been it's been enough time that
01:54:11 ◼ ► Probably bigger scale efforts from Apple in this front. Yeah, like I said, they did do the LLM base auto complete
01:54:22 ◼ ► They've already shipped some stuff that says hey, we've found a way to use this tech to make something in our OS better
01:54:35 ◼ ► Like we're gonna see this over the over the following few years. I would expect I do expect to see a whole bunch of
01:54:40 ◼ ► Those like, you know, as you mentioned like little stuff around the system features already existed
01:54:45 ◼ ► Maybe that are just now better. That's what I want to see and honestly as a developer like
01:54:49 ◼ ► Yeah, I guess I probably should have gotten into this with my answer. I guess we're doing this now in the after show
01:55:02 ◼ ► I'm in the middle of this rewrite laying the groundwork for it to be easier for me in the future to make bigger changes
01:55:09 ◼ ► But during this time of relaying groundwork, I can't make those bigger changes. I don't have the time but in the future
01:55:22 ◼ ► Would require me to do the work on the server. That is something that I could invest into
01:55:28 ◼ ► But I don't think it would be a great use of my time and I think it would be very expensive for me
01:55:34 ◼ ► Even if I wasn't running like the most cutting-edge models or the biggest models or whatever
01:55:43 ◼ ► it's probably not going to be worth it to me and when I look at what I would want out of
01:55:56 ◼ ► Recommending systems like like the recommending algorithms that that would be the two major areas of value for overcast
01:56:04 ◼ ► But those are actually like relative to what people expect out of my app. Those are not
01:56:13 ◼ ► Percentages of the value so to speak I want to have transcription and I want to have you know
01:56:18 ◼ ► A more sophisticated recommendation algorithm, but if I never do those things, it's not the other world for my product
01:56:24 ◼ ► And so therefore it is not worth investing a huge amount of time and money on the server end
01:56:40 ◼ ► I would expect much of that to be exposed through API's for instance the you know, the the speech transcription
01:57:01 ◼ ► Locally on device for all the same reasons that I don't want to run a whole bunch of AI stuff on my servers
01:57:06 ◼ ► Apple doesn't either on their servers because the scale they would be dealing with with
01:57:24 ◼ ► Well, they're already doing a small subset of this with podcast transcription on the server side, right?
01:57:33 ◼ ► They just they just transcribe all their own podcasts once and then everyone every customer gets the benefit as opposed to essentially letting users say
01:57:40 ◼ ► Take this image and make a description of it for me or something. Yeah, you don't have to transcribe everyone's videos
01:57:49 ◼ ► like that's in server side at least and so, you know what Apple has Apple has this massive asset of
01:57:55 ◼ ► All of these iPhones out there in the world that are pretty capable hardware devices that they don't have to pay server time to run
01:58:07 ◼ ► Pushing as much of this as possible to the device side to because they have this this fleet of computing capacity
01:58:18 ◼ ► I also have a smaller version of that a much smaller version of that with overcast like as I lean into AI based
01:58:40 ◼ ► That is possible. There are a few apps that integrate whisper in certain certain, you know features
01:58:51 ◼ ► But even even the small ones on the phone are pretty substantial and a pretty heavy lift
01:59:15 ◼ ► Deploy iOS 18 with some really nice features that I can use for my first like feature update after them after the main rewrite release