577: Colorful Criticism


00:00:00   My son learned a valuable lesson tonight.

00:00:02   This is ominous.

00:00:03   We were eating dinner at the table and I had some jam band music playing by Goose over the speakers.

00:00:11   And he said, "Can I put my music on after this song?"

00:00:15   Oh, no. Oh, no.

00:00:18   You know what the kids call that, Marco? Let's see how tuned in you are to your tweensy tween now, right? The tween lingo. What is that called?

00:00:26   I don't know.

00:00:26   I have no idea.

00:00:27   Well, in case he doesn't know, his kids are too young. All right, well, I'll leave it as a mystery to you.

00:00:31   No, I need to know now!

00:00:33   You can't do that!

00:00:34   Everyone who listens to our show is old like us, I feel like, because when I say things like this, no one chimes in and is like, "You old dummies, it's blank."

00:00:40   So this is a test for people.

00:00:42   Uh, I don't know. Should I do that? I don't know if we want eight weeks' worth of fall.

00:00:44   No, no, no, no, no. Let her rip. Let her rip.

00:00:47   We should give the chat room. Give the chat room a chance.

00:00:49   The chat room is just making fun of us and suggesting "You old dummies" as titles.

00:00:53   Yeah, they don't have any idea either. They're all old like us.

00:00:56   Chat room, young people in the chat room, what is it called?

00:00:58   Adam, Marco's young son, wanted to be able to play his music, presumably through the speakers or whatever you're listening to.

00:01:04   What is that called?

00:01:05   Isn't that just called being a kid? Like, doesn't every kid want to play their music instead of their parents' music?

00:01:09   There is a modern slang phrase for that.

00:01:12   I'm assuming DJing is not the answer.

00:01:15   Yeah, do they even know what DJs are?

00:01:16   We have a 23-year-old who doesn't know, a 35-year-old who doesn't know.

00:01:20   No one knows.

00:01:21   A 37-year-old is all fogies. Listen, you're an IRC channel. Let's be honest, you're probably pretty old.

00:01:26   An IRC channel for a podcast. Like, let's be clear, this is not a young person's game here.

00:01:31   Yeah.

00:01:32   Hit the aux, suggests somebody in the chat.

00:01:34   There you go. Somebody knew it.

00:01:37   Adam asked you to put him on aux.

00:01:39   That's what they call it?

00:01:40   I have never heard that before.

00:01:41   And now, you know why? As old, we know why they call it that.

00:01:45   It's back in the old days when you had an aux input in a car.

00:01:47   The auxiliary input, it was like a headphone jack that you could plug an audio source into in your car and it would play.

00:01:53   Or like in a stereo system, there'd be a headphone jack that says "A-U-X" on it.

00:01:56   And you'd plug in a Walkman or an iPod or whatever.

00:02:01   So they say, "Put me on aux." That means give me control of the thing that is playing music so that I can play my music through it.

00:02:07   I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the time of the Walkman did not overlap the time of the aux jack very much.

00:02:12   The Discman, maybe.

00:02:13   Well, no it did. The aux jack existed. You'd buy those stereos with dual cassette tapes in them so you could copy cassettes.

00:02:21   And they had an aux input on the thing so you could put the Walkman into the aux input and then record on the cassette.

00:02:25   But Jon, you're missing Marco's point. It wasn't a Walkman because you are even older than us.

00:02:29   And normally that doesn't make a big difference, but in this one particular circumstance it does, it would be a Discman or Discman or whatever you want to call it.

00:02:36   No, I'm saying it went as far back as the Walkman. The one with the cassette tape in it.

00:02:41   Aux jacks existed back then like on stereo equipment, but you would never have one in a car or on any kind of speaker anybody was using.

00:02:47   No, they were in cars still, yeah.

00:02:49   In the era of portable cassette players, there were aux jacks in cars? I don't think so.

00:02:53   Yeah, yeah.

00:02:54   No, there weren't.

00:02:55   I really think Marco's right about this.

00:02:56   They came out during the iPod era.

00:02:58   So you could play from your cassette player through the car stereo.

00:03:01   No, but cars had cassette players.

00:03:04   If you had a car that didn't have a cassette deck or if your cassette deck was broken.

00:03:08   Cars that were so early or low end enough to not have cassette decks also wouldn't have had aux jacks.

00:03:13   Anyway, aux jacks are not universal because I remember lots of my Accords didn't have them and I had to add one through a stupid header thing.

00:03:18   So I'm not saying that they were commonplace, but they did exist because it's just it's literally just a headphone jack.

00:03:23   Are you really pulling an infinite timeline style argument on us right now?

00:03:26   No, I'm clarifying that they weren't common.

00:03:28   I mean, the funny thing is like aux jacks actually did not have a very long era of popularity in cars because they were mostly added during the late stages of the iPod era.

00:03:38   And in the early stages of the smartphone era, but then Bluetooth took over pretty effectively.

00:03:42   My cars still have them.

00:03:43   I mean, I know my cars aren't that old, but at 2014 and 2017, they both have aux jacks on.

00:03:48   Well, but Marco, you skipped a step.

00:03:49   You are broadly correct.

00:03:51   But yeah, they started becoming a thing during the iPod era to me.

00:03:55   And yes, John, I'm sure a few cars had it before then.

00:03:57   But realistically, the aux jack became popular during the iPod era.

00:04:01   And then, yes, there was Bluetooth not too long after.

00:04:04   But you're skipping the USB like what was the term? It was like an iPod protocol.

00:04:10   Yeah.

00:04:10   And there was a couple of years of that.

00:04:12   Don't forget the FM adapters. Those were so bad.

00:04:14   Well, those were early. FM and cassette, yeah.

00:04:15   And cassette adapters were actually pretty good.

00:04:17   Yeah, cassette adapters were better than FM, but only barely.

00:04:20   Oh, no, they were way better.

00:04:21   Yeah.

00:04:22   They were almost a perfect line in.

00:04:23   Like it was a very, very close.

00:04:25   I had a lot of I had bad luck with the cassette adapters in terms of them being reliable and continuing to function.

00:04:30   And they sounded bad.

00:04:31   And yes, FM sounded bad, too.

00:04:32   But no, honestly, cassette adapters sounded very close to a real line in because like the way they worked is actually very clever and extremely simple.

00:04:39   Maybe I just had bad ones.

00:04:41   They kept breaking and flaking out.

00:04:43   No, we had one for literally like 20 years.

00:04:46   There's no moving parts.

00:04:47   How did they break?

00:04:48   Maybe it was the wire.

00:04:50   Maybe I just wasn't like the little skinny wire that would dangle out of the thing.

00:04:54   Maybe it was the cassette tape part and the stupid like, you know, like the way it clipped into the thing.

00:04:58   I don't know.

00:04:58   I just had really bad luck with them.

00:05:00   And FM adapter things I also had bad luck with.

00:05:02   Well, those were always garbage.

00:05:04   Because Honda didn't have aux jacks forever.

00:05:05   That's why I had to add them to my 2004 Accord.

00:05:08   I had to remember that I opened up the whole dashboard and wired in the aux jack.

00:05:11   Anyway, kids knew it from from the iPod era.

00:05:14   Like kids, kids who say this, I assume they picked it up because when they were kids, they had an iPod and they wanted to hear it in their parents old car.

00:05:20   And their parents old car had a thing for iPods to play through.

00:05:23   And so put me on aux continue.

00:05:24   And I bet a lot of people using that phrase today who have no idea what it means because, you know, once it goes into the lingo, you don't really.

00:05:30   Question it, put me on aux.

00:05:31   If that's the actual phrasing they are using like that doesn't make a lot of sense.

00:05:35   No, it doesn't.

00:05:35   And also, like, how how would the parent connect the kids phone themselves?

00:05:41   Like, wouldn't the kid have to like, take the cable or let me go on aux or whatever?

00:05:45   Like, ask Adam if he knows this phrase.

00:05:47   Oh, is he awake?

00:05:49   Send him a message now.

00:05:50   No, I'm not doing this now.

00:05:51   Oh, boo.

00:05:52   Real time follow up.

00:05:53   We need it.

00:05:54   OK, hold on.

00:05:55   Oh, gosh. Hey, while while Marco is paging Adam, you know, I was looking up a Wikipedia link for the show notes and I'll give you one guess what happened in Chrome just now.

00:06:03   Come here. We have a question for you.

00:06:05   All right.

00:06:06   Hi.

00:06:06   Hey, what's up?

00:06:07   All right.

00:06:07   They want to know, are you familiar with the phrase put me on aux?

00:06:11   No.

00:06:12   Oh, no.

00:06:15   Oh, no.

00:06:16   If you wanted me to have you put your music on the speakers, is there a phrase you would use for that?

00:06:20   Can you put on my music?

00:06:21   That's that's very straightforward.

00:06:23   Thank you, son.

00:06:24   You've proved my point.

00:06:25   That is what I would say.

00:06:26   Yep.

00:06:27   Yeah, because that makes sense.

00:06:28   I'm going to go play Forager now.

00:06:30   OK.

00:06:33   All right.

00:06:33   We have our follow up.

00:06:34   You're wrong.

00:06:35   It's the no, it's it is a phrase.

00:06:36   It's just Adam doesn't know it yet.

00:06:38   Anyway, thank you to Antique Composite, the twenty three year old in the chat room with the rest of the old people who got us across the line or got the two of us across the line on that.

00:06:50   Yeah, people suggesting us also pass the aux or I'm on aux.

00:06:53   Yeah, there are there are many variants.

00:06:54   That's so weird.

00:06:56   Anyway, so the lesson he learned earlier was when he did not ask to be put on aux, but when he instead asked, could could he play his music over the speakers after my song was over?

00:07:05   He has a jam band, dad, and my song was thirty five minutes long.

00:07:12   Jeezy peasy.

00:07:13   And it was halfway to it only had like 17 minutes left.

00:07:16   Oh, my goodness.

00:07:18   So I'm like, yes, sure.

00:07:20   We agree to this.

00:07:22   And then I told him, like, a minute later, by the way, there's 16 more minutes left to learn to be text out and say, can I just can I just glance at the now playing screen on your on your phone to see like where the progress bar is?

00:07:32   Maybe how many minutes are left?

00:07:34   Well, it would have looked it was right in the end, thanks to our modern iOS design.

00:07:37   It doesn't tell you time remaining.

00:07:38   It does, but it's the tiniest, dimmest text on the screen.

00:07:43   Yeah, on the Mac, of course, it would require hover.

00:07:45   But, you know, on iOS, we don't have that luxury.

00:07:47   So they they designed it away into tiny little low contrast text.

00:07:50   John, you have received your notes export.

00:07:55   It came via carrier pigeon, I'm quite sure.

00:07:57   What was the result?

00:07:59   Disappointing.

00:08:00   So it was three hundred thirty seven megabytes, which I thought was promising.

00:08:04   I'm like, oh, this must have all the stuff that I want.

00:08:07   And what I got was a whole bunch of folders, which I think were basically named after like my notes folders, kind of.

00:08:13   And in those folders were dot txt files, plain text files.

00:08:16   So all my like, you know, bold headings, all of my style text, all that gone, all of my links mostly gone or expanded into the plain URLs.

00:08:28   And then a bunch of image files in subdirectories below that.

00:08:31   So wherever I place those images in the document, however I scaled them or cropped them or did anything with them, all that is also gone.

00:08:37   So this is not a faithful reproduction of the work I put into each one of these notes.

00:08:43   Right. Like, for example, I was looking for my one about sofas, right?

00:08:46   There's just a text file with a bunch of text and there's kind of like blank lines between sections of text where I know that images should go like this image goes with that.

00:08:55   But also the images are like, as I originally downloaded from Web pages before I cropped them and everything so you can show smaller portions.

00:09:01   It's just it's it's not great.

00:09:04   Like it's better than nothing if you really want to have a backup and like, oh, I really want to have that important text that was there and those important images.

00:09:11   But it does not preserve the rich text nature of notes, which is a shame because remember, this is.

00:09:16   Apple's own export, I know there are tons of utilities that will do this for you that will try to preserve it, that will try to make an RTF file out of it, that will make a PDF out of them.

00:09:26   But Apple should really up its game here.

00:09:28   It's great that they offer a text file and images like I don't object to that being an option, but it's not it's not a backup of all of the work that I put into my notes.

00:09:37   James Anthony writes, the potential overlap between Apple's car project and Apple Vision Pro with regard to spatial computing could be huge.

00:09:44   How about this? Instead of making a massively expensive, high stakes, fully autonomous robot to transport human beings safely across Earth,

00:09:50   try developing a robotic product at any size or price point that can transport anything of any size or weight, any distance inside of my own home or office.

00:09:58   Despite the advances in cameras and I and robotics in twenty twenty four, there still exists no consumer product at any price point capable of moving from room to room,

00:10:05   locating a physical object and manipulating it. Nothing that can go press a button or turn a knob or open or close a cabinet drawer lid door or window.

00:10:12   Nothing that can hide dust or fold laundry or check on and feed your pet, let alone make you a sandwich or bring you a beer here in the car project.

00:10:21   People getting reassigned to the team makes perfect sense to me, and I'm glad to hear it.

00:10:26   You know, this reminds me of I can't remember the name of the thing, but there's this little like orb of a robot that I think I saw advertised on Instagram a lot that would follow you around.

00:10:34   And the theory was or something was I don't know what I'm thinking of, and I think it was mostly meant for city dwellers.

00:10:40   And I don't mean that derisively at all, but it was meant for city dwellers like you're in New York City, you go to like your local bodega or whatever, or maybe, you know, local grocery store.

00:10:48   And you're only picking up a few things and you put it in this little pod that falls behind you and it will follow you home and so on and so forth.

00:10:54   You don't have to carry your groceries. And it was both the most ridiculous and dumb thing I've ever seen. And I wanted one immediately.

00:11:00   It's not it's not Gebo, right? I just put the Gebo link in the chat room. But what you described is not this, I'm assuming.

00:11:05   I've seen that, though. I think it was on like college campuses or something. I don't remember. But yeah,

00:11:09   they do have a lot of delivery robots on college campuses. We talk about delivery robots on Robot or Not a lot that deliver food from place to place.

00:11:15   Oh, that's probably where I heard about it. It was probably on Robot or Not.

00:11:17   Yeah. So on this topic, this is actually somewhat relevant, mostly because of Elon Musk.

00:11:25   Like he's got that one of his many ridiculous things that he thinks he's doing is like, we're going to make a humanoid robot, you know, that whole thing.

00:11:32   And he had the person come out and like a person come out of like a suit and say, this is what it would be like, but robot ridiculous.

00:11:39   The interesting thing about robots, like household robots that do more than like a Roomba, you know what I mean?

00:11:47   I'm not going to say the smarts part of it is not hard because it is.

00:11:52   But surprisingly, the main barrier, as far as I can tell, is the the boring parts.

00:11:59   What cars have going for them is we figured out the thing about making a machine that you can ride inside that travels from place to place on roads.

00:12:06   Like we have we figured that out. You put wheels, you have brakes, we have traffic controls and signs and roads that we've paved and we plow them.

00:12:15   It's like, you know, we've we've got that part sorted out.

00:12:19   We now we just need something to drive them. That turns out to be really hard, right?

00:12:22   Inside the house for a thing that you're going to buy for like, you know, like a Roomba type level of device.

00:12:28   I think the moving from place to place and doing useful things is actually like we're not even over that hurdle.

00:12:35   Like that is the first thing that you have to do before you get to the point where, OK, now technically we have something that can do that now put in the smart.

00:12:42   So it does something useful because to make anything that can move around your house and do useful things, even if it's just like getting you something out of the fridge,

00:12:52   requires an amount of mechanical machinery that probably pushes the price of this too high to be useful in the market.

00:13:01   Like Roombas could be better if they cost 10 times as much.

00:13:04   You can make a house cleaning robot that is a lot better than a Roomba, but it would be so much more expensive.

00:13:09   They really have to control costs on that. That's why it's so limited, right?

00:13:13   That's why it's like, why can't you just make it go up and down stairs? We get robots go up and down stairs.

00:13:16   College kids do it all the time. It's not hard. It's just expensive.

00:13:20   And I think that is actually the difficult barrier, making a cost effective thing that can traverse your home and grab things and transport them.

00:13:31   And if you somehow are able to do that, then it's like, OK, now how do you get it smart enough to do that without killing your pets or doing other terrible things that it can do?

00:13:40   Like, I'm not saying it's easier than self-driving because the stakes are lower, speeds are lower.

00:13:45   If it knocks over a drink instead of bringing it to you, oh, well, it's not that bad, you know, probably won't kill your pet because you just make sure it's really weak and can't actually kill a pet.

00:13:53   But the hard part of this, I think, is actually the robot for not too much money part.

00:14:00   And so I would suggest Apple not go into this business.

00:14:04   It doesn't seem like it's exciting enough for them, you know, and I wouldn't I don't think there's much value to extract from the car project to apply to that kind of thing.

00:14:14   By the way, did you I don't know if you saw yet a couple hours ago, Mark Gurman published this giant feature story in Bloomberg.

00:14:20   Yes, I was going to put that as the fourth topic.

00:14:22   Yeah, all about the like just detailing all sorts of insider info about the car project over time, like all the different phases they allegedly went through, you know, angles they allegedly tried to, you know, and how they allegedly tried to do it.

00:14:34   And by the way, I think everything that was in that article had been leaked before, but this is more like confirmation just reminding you now that people are willing to talk and all that stuff was more or less true because I remember reading about all those things individually, but individually, you're like, really?

00:14:46   And now all together as a summary when the project's over, I'm like, okay, I kind of buy it now.

00:14:51   Yeah, it's it just seems on so many levels.

00:14:53   First of all, I didn't know all that stuff. I knew about half of it, I think already. So a lot of it was news to me at least. And there's there's a lot of like commentary woven throughout about, you know, from different sources of people who had allegedly worked on it. But it was, it was really something to see what was basically a decade of this of this failed project, like all the different phases that went through what they thought they wanted each point different partnerships from different companies that ended up falling through for whatever reason, there must be such a big story to tell there and we're only getting a little bit of it.

00:15:21   It's kind of shocking as as an Apple fan to see like how long they, you know, wasted away for so long on that project for how much money and how much talent all for what seemed to have begun as a Johnny I've vanity project.

00:15:36   I don't know, but it's not a giant vanity project. But at one point, they said they according to whatever their source was that they considered buying McLaren because it would make Johnny I've happy. It's like talk about a bad reason to do something. He's becoming disengaged with the company seems like he might leave we should buy McLaren because he likes that they need to have a car design studio in the UK. It's like, no, don't don't buy a company to satisfy your super important person. Like that's I'm glad they didn't do that. But oh, yeah, but yeah, but I don't think it was a vanity project for him. But like, the problem is, you know,

00:16:06   we'll put a link in the show notes to the article. I think you need a Bloomberg subscription to read it. But like, or Apple news, they had a bunch of different ideas. And we talked about this. That's why I didn't want to cover it this week because we kind of covered the car project. And there's nothing really new to talk about with really the project. But this kind of outlines the whole like it should drive itself and not have a steering wheel stuck around for a really long time. And there were there are proponents, obviously, there were strong influential proponents of that strategy inside the company. And only towards the end when we, you know, when the rumors came out, they said, how about not and we just put a steering wheel in.

00:16:35   It was like, you know, eight years into the program, right. And as we said, turns out, they couldn't make the car without the steering wheel and all and by the way, all their ideas of how of what the car without the steering wheel should be like, I think would have been disastrous. Like this is one thing I didn't get to talk about with when we talk about the car thing of like that. I think Apple has vastly underestimates and also has no idea how car styling works. Like car styling is such an important part of making cars and it is deadly and fraught and way more difficult.

00:17:05   And I think Apple realizes all of their ideas were pretty bad. Like we just see vague rumors or whatever, but I think it shows a misunderstanding of what makes people buy $100,000 car or an $80,000 car or hell, any car. Car styling is so car styling is so dangerous and so complicated and so culturally enmeshed. Like it's so easy to get wrong and so hard to get right. And I think Apple would have just disastrously blown it.

00:17:34   Obviously if the car drove itself, no one would care, but they couldn't do that. So if they feel that a regular car and they tried to style anybody, Johnny Ive, anybody at the company, like the only way it would be okay is if they got just actual car people from car companies style and didn't let Johnny Ive anywhere near it. But every time I hear the descriptions of the Johnny Ive influence car, I'm like, yeah, nobody, nobody without much money would want that.

00:17:56   And by far my favorite little tidbit in this story was that allegedly Johnny Ive wanted to offer the car only in white.

00:18:03   Are you serious?

00:18:04   Yeah, with white interior, white cloth interior. Have you ever been in anything?

00:18:08   And a white wall tires.

00:18:12   I was rolling like what is this 1950 all over again?

00:18:15   Before Johnny I have to go to New England in winter.

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00:20:17   Matt Johnson writes, "I keep hearing tech people, including ATP, talking about Apple Vision Pro saying various things indicating that Apple's ideal and eventual form factor for the Vision Pro is a pair of glasses.

00:20:26   This seems logical but it also seems like many of the touted features in this version one are dead ends.

00:20:31   Theater mode, immersive environments, and more all seem to rely heavily on a fully controlled VR environment even when they are mimicking AR that I think that any glasses will always struggle to provide.

00:20:40   Maybe these are just features that sell the current product until Apple can get where it wants to go and when it does they're no longer important anyway.

00:20:47   We've also had plenty of other devices that have tried to attack the problem from the AR side first.

00:20:52   The Xreal, Rokid, Ray-Ban meta, etc. have all tried various things, albeit with less polish than Apple can provide and they've barely registered notice and when they have it's often received ridicule.

00:21:05   For example, the way ahead of its time Google Glass.

00:21:07   So are glasses actually the end goal and how can Apple Vision Pro get from here to there?

00:21:12   Would working from the other direction even with Apple's polish have been a bad idea?

00:21:17   You know I've been thinking about this a bit in part because of Matt's feedback and I've been thinking about it from hearing similar things from other people.

00:21:23   I can't help but wonder if there will eventually be two versions of the Vision Pro and you know whatever the naming may be that's mostly irrelevant.

00:21:30   But like one of them is completely immersive like it is today and one of them is a more sleek more AR oriented thing because Matt's right.

00:21:40   Like some of the best things to me about the Vision Pro today anyway are when it's fully immersive. Watching a movie in it is incredible.

00:21:48   Looking at panoramas are incredible you know it's incredible to do that.

00:21:51   Some of those things to Matt's point would not be better with a more glasses like form factor.

00:21:58   So I wouldn't be surprised if they kind of fork this thing for lack of a better term and go two different directions concurrently.

00:22:04   Because you might want to be immersed say on a plane or something like that.

00:22:07   You might want that or if you're watching a movie or you might not want that if you're around family or in the real world or whatever the case may be.

00:22:15   Yeah it seems like the glasses imagined version of this that's just glasses it's not like that's close.

00:22:23   What the Vision Pro is today all the different challenges it faces especially just in terms of physical realities of like the batteries required the computer hardware required.

00:22:32   Like yes a glasses version would have different requirements some of them would be lesser like there was no screen obviously well no traditional style screen there's some kind of projecting something in there.

00:22:43   But we are so far from that that I think it's it's it would have to almost be two different products because if that's if that was actually their end goal for this product we wouldn't even have this yet because we're nowhere near that.

00:22:58   It's probably almost like the difference between an iPhone and an Apple watch.

00:23:03   Like yeah those are both based on a lot of the same you know core components and some of the some of the shared software underneath it.

00:23:08   But an iPhone and an Apple watch do a lot of very different things and are designed very differently with very different capabilities and different priorities.

00:23:15   And similarly like the like clear glasses version of whatever Vision Pro you know whatever AR glasses that would be that would have so many restrictions on it compared to anything that can have any kind of bulk to it.

00:23:28   Like a headset it would be a very very different feature set way fewer of the current Vision Pro's features and I think I think it would be more like an Apple watch in the sense that it would do a small number of focused things that can be done within a very very tight power envelope.

00:23:47   And that's not at all what the Vision Pro is. The Vision Pro is a whole laptop on your face. The Vision Pro is doing very very different things with extremely different classes of hardware and classes of size and weight so we're talking about different products at this point.

00:24:01   Whether they can ever actually do those like clear glasses thing who knows but I don't consider what we know that what we see the Vision Pro today I don't consider that even in the same lineage as AR glasses because think about how many things are different.

00:24:13   Like first of all there's no closing out the world visually like you can't. That takes out all of the most popular features so far with the Vision Pro which is mainly about immersion and movie watching.

00:24:23   Those would both be terrible on clear glasses. It would also have an interesting challenge of like well how does it see your hands? Well where do you put all these cameras?

00:24:32   The Vision Pro right now has what like six cameras on it or something? Where do you put all those on glasses? And then where does the power come from? Where is the hardware? Where's the computational hardware?

00:24:42   Is it just in the stems? There's not that much space or weight available there. So like there's all sorts of major challenges. I don't think it's the same product at all.

00:24:51   Yeah so the reason everyone talks about glasses in the context of Vision Pro partly because that was one of the rumors and partly because Apple has always talked about AR so much and with respect to AR obviously clear glasses solve the pass-through problem because hey you're looking at the world. It also solves the giant heavy thing on your face problem, the seeing people's eyes problem like tons of problems that Vision Pro has are solved by the glasses form factor.

00:25:15   I do think that it is the same lineage. If you look at some of the existing devices that are essentially glasses that you can see through that also have images they can protect on them. HoloLens does that. What is the other one called? Magic Leap? I think the X Real thing. There's a bunch of like Ray-Ban has like kind of cheapish glasses that you can buy that stick a bunch of electronics in the stems as we call them but they're actually called the temples so we always forget that and just call them stems.

00:25:41   Oh I thought I was going to say sticks I knew that was wrong. I think it's called sticks.

00:25:45   Anyway some of them have wires to go down or whatever but like there are a bunch of products that do this. Obviously the screens in them are terrible but anyway you can that that's why this person says people do that they haven't really caught on. It's because the screens are terrible and because they're not actually as slim as you want them to be. The reason I think it's the same lineage is you're going to need to do a lot of the same things setting aside where you hide the cameras and I think there are clever places to hide them.

00:26:10   Especially if they get much much smaller or whatever. You still kind of have to solve a lot of the same problems with augmenting reality by painting things over the real world in a way that is useful.

00:26:22   You know having the computing working on screen tech granted it's different screen tech but it probably is vaguely related if you look at the existing ones in the market they don't you know they all use kind of screens that kind of project themselves into your field of view. The way I would think about it in a future when it actually is possible to get something decent looking in glasses for thirty five hundred dollars or whatever is that it's the necro robotic core right if you have the glasses and they can show high res bright stuff like vision pro can.

00:26:52   That is a subset of the block out the world if you have those glasses it's pretty easy to put a thing over them that now makes it immersive because now you know you put the whatever I whatever you call the light shield but say over it and now you blocked all your vision except for the screens which presumably would fill even more of your field of view than the current vision pro does especially if they're like wraparound type glasses or whatever.

00:27:13   And there you've got your immersive vr vision pro experience and maybe that the light shield thing has additional sensors for pass through or whatever but like if you can do the glasses you can do the vr thing and I don't even think they need to be separate products if you go make a robotic core and say this is the smallest that can be but if you want the immersive experience add add this thing onto it to essentially block out the rest of your vision blocking out your vision is pretty easy to do it's all the other stuff that's hard so I don't think this is anywhere close to being here.

00:27:43   And Matt's question about like should Apple start in the other direction I think the answer is definitely no because everyone who started in the other direction has sort of aimed to be like inexpensive lightweight thing that you can watch movies on in like 1080p in a kind of dim way with poor color reproduction that doesn't wow anybody.

00:28:00   I really would not want to use like my Mac's virtual screen inside one of those things the resolutions too low they did to Marcos point they don't have any cameras or sensors for hand control number whatever it's not close enough to be useful it's not it's not anything impressive or useful now it's way more or less expensive than $3,500 but vision pro at least what it has going for it is it does impressive things it does things better than anyone has done them and it fits into Apple's ecosystem using your iPad apps controlling your Mac.

00:28:28   It's trying to be useful today as opposed to just saying oh if you're on a plane you can watch not great looking movies and not great looking screens on these glasses that look like really bulky glasses division process if you're willing to put the giant thing on your face we can look way better and we think you like it so I don't think they start from the wrong direction but it's going to be a lot to Marcos when it's going to be a long time before they can do the glasses even as well as vision pro and by the time they can the vision pro caliber $3,500 thing that you stick on your face is going to be even better.

00:28:58   So it's not going to be within the next few years so just be patient and that's important to point out that as the technology gets gets better and more miniaturized to do maybe those you know the clear glasses down the line everything else will also get faster and better and the resource levels will go up and expectations will go up that's why even though the Apple watch is now been out for almost 10 years right this is the 10th year I believe yes but it hasn't replaced phones and the current trajectory is for it not to replace phones.

00:29:27   You know effectively ever probably and the reason why is because our expectations of what everything does and what technology is able to do with a given amount of space and power goes up over time and so while the Apple watches today might be as fast as the iPhones 10 years ago and you know they might have all a lot of the same kind of hardware capabilities at the raw level as phone 10 years ago did our phones are now that much better when you apply more power and more space and more money.

00:29:54   And also the watch's screen is still roughly the same size sure yeah like that's that's the biggest limiting factor on the utility of the watches is just it's just so it's small and it's on your wrist and you can't use it with two hands and it's that's the thing those are those are like physical form factor restrictions that will always keep the watch a certain amount behind the phone in terms of hardware capabilities well the same thing is going to apply with these two types of eyewear you know that the headset versus the glasses they're both things in front of your eyes though they are but the headset is always going to have way more.

00:30:23   Space and weight budget in it for things like a bigger battery or higher computational power components whereas the glasses will always need to be lighter smaller thinner like everything everything will be more interested there yeah but but what they both have going for them though is like the watch is limited by its form factor because it's a watch and human wrists aren't really changing size and the fact that we only have two hands isn't really changing rapidly but putting things in front of your eyes.

00:30:50   Eventually this is you know eventually eventually you you reach the limits of human perception audio quality in the music we listen to not that it is the best it could possibly be but it has reached a point where pursuing better audio quality for consumer audio is not fruitful screens are getting close to that for like desktop screens like retina is you know I think they can go a little bit farther but you're pretty close to exhausting in terms of resolution we could do better on color and brightness but like.

00:31:20   We're getting close to limits of human perception so for the VR thing once the thirty five hundred dollar thing or whatever equivalent is starts to reach the limits of human perception in terms of resolution then the AR glasses can essentially catch up because there's no sense in going higher resolution there's still you know light field cameras and be able to focus your eyes there's always another frontier to jump to but there is a reasonable point of equilibrium because they're both competing to put screens in front of your eyes so I think there will be.

00:31:48   There will be an area where there is overlap between them until the next breakthrough comes that requires a thirty five hundred dollar thing by the way while we're on this in our vision pro corner I discovered a new pro and a new con for vision pro usage this week the con which kind of goes along with what John was just saying is in movie experience.

00:32:09   I miss the subwoofer like when you watch a movie with a decent speakers in a subwoofer you've you get those awesome like low bass sounds and and parts of the music and everything and in the vision pro since it's all headphone based you don't get that no matter what you're wearing 'cause headphones don't really do that just put your vision pro on ox.

00:32:29   Your stereo system puts send the sound through your home theater system which has surround speakers of course I know what police have a subwoofer sick burn real quick though are you using the audio pods you're not using like AirPods or anything like that I tried both and but the thing is like headphone look I love headphones I'm a huge headphone nerd headphones in general do not have the kind of low bass response that subwoofers have they can't like it's just that you run into physics problems even like the very best headphones that the very best low frequency response cannot reach as low.

00:32:59   You're not going to feel that rumble in your chest exactly and that is part of a good movie experience in my opinion for many movie types so I do kind of miss that the pro I discovered is that the vision pro is the first computing device that I can use while I'm while I have moisturizer or other lotion on my hands without it like gumming up the screen like it's winter my hands are always so dry and usually I like before bed I like put moisturizer on my hands then I'm like well now what do I do like I gotta like wait for it to dry.

00:33:28   Well you gotta be careful touching the things that the glass that's in front of the cameras though but you don't have to touch it you put the vision pro on and then you put the moisturizer in your hands and then you can sit there and let it dry okay all right well then you're taking it off yeah well by that time it's dry all right I'm not a moisturizer person I don't know the parameters of the moisture problem but I'm like oh yeah I don't want to touch electronics with moisturizer either but yeah because you have to touch the vision pro on like the glass and aluminum part you can't grab it by the light shield so anyway.

00:33:55   Look John not all of us are oily like you are some of us need a little synthetic oil I'm like that all the time I'm not putting anything on it goes on all my devices you don't need moisturizers I don't I don't use it.

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00:36:03   Let's talk about the semi-breaking news there are now M3 MacBook Airs.

00:36:09   Well actually before we get German had a rumor right before this broke that he was saying hey there's not going to be any March event for Apple stuff that they're releasing iPads, Macs, etc and shortly after he posted that sure enough MacBook Airs came out and there was no event for them.

00:36:27   I when he first posted this I'm like really no event for the first redesign of the iPad Pro in six years or wherever it's been but since Apple press release you know you know release the MacBook Airs maybe maybe there's they don't want to have an event for I just feel like for the iPads I would think they would want to explain stuff but who knows so so far he's one for one M3 MacBook Airs no event just a press release.

00:36:53   Yeah it was surprising there was a very brief gate if you will very very brief kerfuffle about the fact that it is stated in the I guess press release or whatever that it now supports up to two external displays which first of all heck yeah that was one of the biggest complaints I saw of the M1 and M2 MacBook Airs that they only support one external display.

00:37:16   Although when you saw it Casey didn't you think wait a second I remember as one of the hosts of ATP that we had many discussions about how the M3 system on a chip cannot support three monitors and that's why the M3 don't you know like the limitations from the M2 haven't changed that thought occurred here.

00:37:37   I was pouring over the tech specs for afterwards I'm like how did they do this I'm like how is it different from the 14 inch M3 MacBook Pro right we talked about it so much was like we had a whole thing of I guess they just decided that for the M3 they you know they're sticking to what they did in the M2 and you can have three monitors right but the answer that was eventually evident.

00:37:56   Yeah so they say that the only way you get two external displays is if you close the lid on the MacBook Air so you can clamshell it to get two external displays and honestly I don't think that's an unreasonable trade-off like obviously in a perfect world you would want to be able to do three displays you know one the onboard and two externals but I mean that's what the other chips are for and we have a little bit more information about this but supposed to say one external display up to 6K at 60 Hertz so you can drive your beloved XCR display.

00:38:25   Or you can close the lid to get two 5K displays at 60 Hertz and I think that's pretty decent I think that passes muster for me anyway but how is this working so Hector Martin who is I think basically the primary if not only developer of what is it a Sashi a Shahi something like that.

00:38:44   Thank you the Linux that's destined the Linux that is destined for the Apple Silicon Macs Hector writes Apple introduced this capability into the M2 already what it's why the M2 Mac Mini supports two displays over type C or Thunderbolt while the original M1 Mac Mini does not the laptops are logically equivalent to a Mac Mini with the HDMI port hardwired to the internal panel.

00:39:10   Whoa the only reason this wasn't enabled on empty laptops so far is that it requires extra firmware support to disable the internal panel and reconfigure the primary display pipe for external mode the firmware has lots of special support for the internal panel so it's not quote unquote just another screen connected to the system there's a lot of stuff that has to be done properly to make this work as intended now the question is whether Apple will backport this to the M2 or not.

00:39:33   DCP firmware nominally has an identical interface sync between all platforms so it should be a common code base so it should be easy to do but they might explicitly lock it out today I learned.

00:39:45   Yeah so this makes perfect sense because obviously we've known the M2 can support two displays let's just because I have a built-in one and of course the MacBook Air supports two displays the built-in one and one external one and so allowing it to ignore the external one makes sense as for this being backported to the M2 this definitely smells like something that Apple wouldn't bother doing unless they essentially get it free as Hector was saying like look if it's if it's a shared code base and they just have to throw more everybody gets it and related to that.

00:40:14   So there was a brief window of time several hours where everyone was losing their mind and mostly understandably that hey there's a 13 excuse me a 14 inch M3 MacBook Pro that exists in the world that cannot do this it's not the M3 Pro it's not the M3 Max it's just the straight up M3 MacBook Pro it can't do this what the what well Apple got it gets on the horn with nine to five nine to five Mac and says oh we're gonna backport that so Apple's confirmed to nine to five

00:40:43   Mac that software update for the 14 inch MacBook Pro will gain the ability to drive two external displays with the lid closed this feature will work identically to how it works with the new M3 MacBook Air we don't know yet which software update of course that's also an M3 so the question remains will it be backported to M2 and even if Apple sort of gets it for free because it's like a shared firmware base or whatever it's kind of strikes me as one of those cases where Apple would be like you know what it's a good differentiator for the M3 models to be able to do this in the M2 not people who bought the M2s bought them without an expectation that they would have the

00:41:13   this feature even if it's technically possible it I do wonder if Apple's going to bother backporting it so I'm glad the M3s are all getting it I'm glad they essentially backported it to an M3 product that existed before the M3 MacBook Air I think this is a good compromise I do continue to hope that in the M7 or whatever the hell timeline allows them to make changes based on feedback they will say you know what to display controllers in the M3 line might be limiting not for desktops but for the laptops

00:41:43   because I mean we'll see we'll see how people like the M3 like people are annoyed like when I when I dock my laptop at work I can't use my two monitors well now you can are you happy now or are you still annoyed that you can't also have your lid open and use the built-in display and as we pointed out when we looked at this we were originally discussing this why it is why did they not make this change in the M3 the display controls take up space on the die they cost money this is the lowest end M chip how do you want to spend the money in that space in that power budget or whatever

00:42:13   it still might be the right thing for Apple to do on its lowest end laptops to only support two but at a certain point as transistors shrink I think they should spend some of that bounty of additional transistors to put maybe another display controller on there

00:42:28   indeed so some of the features that are a little bit different for audio voice isolation and wide-spectrum microphone modes and enhanced voice clarity and audio and video calls do you think that is do you think that's just like software using the M3 is better neural engine that doesn't strike me as hardware differences and seem like that sounds a lot like because they've done similar tricks in the past really like the webcam got better and it's like the same component just with better software and image processing so it's probably the same thing and why would it be M3 as opposed to M2 like the M3 does have a better

00:42:58   neural engine you know like I don't know but anyway there's not a lot of differences so we're reading you all of them

00:43:02   indeed connectivity moves from Wi-Fi 6 to Wi-Fi 6e and with regard to the environment the new MacBook Air

00:43:10   is the first Apple product to be made with 50% recycled content including 100% recycled aluminum

00:43:15   in the enclosure 100% recycled rare earth elements and all magnets and in another first for Apple 100%

00:43:20   recycled copper in the main logic board MacBook Air meets Apple's high standards for energy

00:43:25   efficiency and is free of mercury brominated flame retardant and PVC the packaging is 99%

00:43:30   fiber-based bringing Apple closer to its goal to remove plastic from all packaging by 2025

00:43:35   well done yeah every product they come out with it's nice to see like they get new stuff to brag

00:43:39   about to show that they're making incremental progress towards their goals which is nice there's

00:43:43   one more one more important feature that the M3 MacBook Airs has have it is quoting from Apple's

00:43:48   documentation available in midnight which figures features a breakthrough anodization seal to reduce

00:43:54   fingerprints remember that coating that the black one the black MacBook Pro has got this makes me

00:43:59   think that the midnight one is getting that coating too which will really help because the

00:44:02   midnight one looked awful when anybody touched it the M2 not the M3 but the M2 13-inch MacBook Air

00:44:09   still for sale starting at a thousand bucks this is in comparison to 1100 for the M3 the M1 MacBook

00:44:15   Air is no longer for sale brand new sad sad the M1 MacBook Air uh is gone because you know basically

00:44:21   M2 uh replaces it in the line at the same price point I'll miss the wedge I think there was a

00:44:26   Verge story about specifically missing the wedge but I think we've all mourned this when you know

00:44:30   when they knew when the MacBook Air was redesigned but I still think that M1 MacBook Air is so great

00:44:35   uh obviously it would have been better if it had magsafe but you can't have everything

00:44:38   yeah this honestly I yeah it had a great run the M1 is pretty old now it was time to let it go out

00:44:45   of the lineup I've bidded a fond farewell I love that computer it was extremely important and

00:44:51   amazing but yeah it's it's old now so it was time to to bid it farewell and honestly for I was you

00:44:56   know consulting with some people about like should I buy this you know someone was asking like should

00:45:00   I want to buy a cheap laptop what should I get I said well you should get an M2 MacBook Air but

00:45:03   the M3 is going to come out soon and this was like weeks ago lo and behold the M3 did come out but

00:45:08   what I said was like look the M3 is going to come out but it it's not better in any ways that you

00:45:13   care about probably so wait for the M3 to come out and then get the M2 cheaper and you can do

00:45:18   that right now like I don't know how long they're going to sell M2 maybe you know just like they did

00:45:21   the M1 for the entire duration but you you know you can configure an M2 for up to like several

00:45:28   hundred dollars cheaper than you used to be able to configure it a couple days before and are you

00:45:32   going to notice the M3 differences maybe the dual display thing if they don't backport it if that's

00:45:36   important to you but the speed difference or anything like that and this class of machine is

00:45:40   not going to be impactful to you the the battery life Apple's rating them exactly the same this is

00:45:46   a good time to get a cheap M2 maybe towards the end of this year then the M2 will be a little bit

00:45:53   longer in the tooth but right now you can get a good deal on M2 MacBook Air and that's a good

00:45:57   machine and if you swapped out someone's M3 MacBook Air with an M2 one and they didn't use

00:46:01   two external displays how long would it take them to notice well it depends on whether they

00:46:05   get the navy blue model or not they'll notice that one particularly your friends would show up yeah

00:46:08   no but that's and that's that's great because again like the MacBook Air it's so important

00:46:12   to hit low price points with that computer you know the M2 version has all the modern stuff it

00:46:18   has the magsafe it has the new design it has the new finishes like all the stuff that the M1 version

00:46:23   didn't have and now it's it's that low priced option that is fantastic I love the MacBook

00:46:29   Air line it is just a delightful computer to use it's amazing to pick up and hold and bring places

00:46:36   it is a great all-around computer and it is by far the default choice for almost any needs if

00:46:43   somebody says I want a computer you can just say get the MacBook Air unless you know specifically

00:46:46   that they have some really good reason why they can't get their worst on a MacBook Air

00:46:50   that's the default for everybody and it's great that it got better and the low-end model got

00:46:54   better and it's just great news all around yeah speaking of great news no actually what's the

00:46:59   opposite of that uh speaking of I guess this is like a category that's been a category in this

00:47:05   show and a category in the news for it seems like years now I guess we would call it apple versus

00:47:10   the world seriously all right so apple was fined approximately 2 billion us dollars that's billion

00:47:19   with a b billion dollars by the eu for app store practices this is covered in the verge from the

00:47:26   verges summary apple's been hit with a fine of 1.84 billion euros or about 2 billion bucks by

00:47:32   the european union antitrust regulators over its app store rules and has been told it cannot stop

00:47:35   music services from advertising cheaper subscription deals outside of apple store

00:47:39   apple issued a scathing response to the ruling which i'm sure we'll talk about saying the

00:47:42   commission failed to quote uncover any credible evidence quote of consumer harm or anti-competitive

00:47:47   behavior the company also says that spotify wants to quote rewrite the rules of the app store quote

00:47:52   to gain competitive advantages while paying nothing to apple despite apple claiming the

00:47:56   app store was crucial to spotify's current market domination apple says it will appeal the decision

00:48:02   uh i think maybe i'm reading this wrong but the the thing that struck me so funny about um

00:48:08   about i think it was from the verge uh the summary from the verge but the way they wrote it just

00:48:14   struck stuck out to me the quote is this decision sent a powerful message no company not even a

00:48:19   monopoly like apple can wield power abusively to control how other companies interact with their

00:48:23   customers and this is so funny to me because this is an example of like apple's perspective leaking

00:48:29   into the verges um coverage of it like these well who do you think there refers to though it's not

00:48:34   clear that's that's the thing that's why i said maybe i'm misreading it but i read that as this

00:48:39   is apple yet again saying these are our customers they're not marco's customers your customers and

00:48:43   my customers for you know call sheet and overcast and and whatnot it's apple's customers yeah i

00:48:48   think i think your read is right uh for looking at the sentence again that's gross man that's so

00:48:52   gross well i mean that's that's that's the way apple always frames it oh i know it is i know it

00:48:57   i forgot i forgot to give my my framing of this i got too distracted by apple versus the world

00:49:01   um i do i do want to talk about just to summarize this is a specific ruling and apple's going to

00:49:07   appeal and blah blah blah and the news here is like the fine is bigger than they thought it was

00:49:10   going to be because there was a leak that it was going to be like 500 million turns out it's 2

00:49:13   billion and we'll talk more about that in a second but i i do want to sort of give the overview of

00:49:17   this because i think it is it is instructive and kind of sort of defined sketches the outline of

00:49:23   this whole debate in a way that is easy to miss because of all the details that we're going to

00:49:28   get into uh this is the european union uh we've said this before but reiterate deciding that

00:49:34   there's insufficient competition uh in certain markets and they want to increase the competition

00:49:39   and i know this sounds stupid but bear with me in the u.s people are in the u.s we're familiar with

00:49:44   you you know study history or social studies class or whatever the sherman antitrust act

00:49:48   the idea is like say only one company in the united states they can sell cars that's bad

00:49:52   for consumers because if you don't like the cars from that one company uh you don't have a choice

00:49:57   where to buy something else and you're like well someone will just start a competing car company

00:50:01   that's capitalism but then if you try to start a competing car company and of course car companies

00:50:06   get all their parts from this part supplier network and you're like i'm gonna buy uh you

00:50:10   know you start a new car company and you go try to get buy tires from the tire company and the

00:50:14   one big car company says hey if you sell tires to that startup we're not going to buy any of your

00:50:18   tires anymore and you're going to go out of business that would be an example of abusing

00:50:21   monopoly power right and we have laws against that that's what the sherman antitrust uh act is about

00:50:27   in this country to say if there is what we call it a monopoly one big giant company that controls

00:50:32   too much stuff it's bad for consumers uh for exactly that reason it's not illegal to be a

00:50:37   monopoly but it is illegal to say to the tire manufacturer if you sell tires to any of those

00:50:42   startups that are trying to compete with us we will cut you off and you will go out of business

00:50:46   that's abusing monopoly power the eu says there's insufficient competition in you know smartphones

00:50:53   or whatever like whatever whatever however they define the market there but in the eu they don't

00:50:57   have the same rules as we do about like there needs to be one big giant company that is overall

00:51:03   dominant they've decided that apple and android as sort of a duopoly with two companies more or

00:51:08   less dividing up the entire market for like smartphones for example it doesn't matter that

00:51:13   you know neither one of them is the only game in town it's like well you don't like apple you can

00:51:17   go to android and if you don't like android you can go to apple see competition the eu has decided

00:51:21   that's not enough competition so everything they're doing is based on that theory that there's not

00:51:29   enough competition and when there's not enough competition it's not good for consumers more

00:51:33   specifically there happens to be a few important companies in europe like say spotify that obviously

00:51:39   lobby them and have a vested interest in saying you know apple is being real unfair to us on

00:51:44   their platform and we don't like this and so on and so forth that's kind of details though i just

00:51:47   don't want to you know the big picture is in theory not enough competition according to the

00:51:53   eu and their rules are different than ours and they want to find a way to make more competition

00:51:59   with varying degrees of success i think keeping that in mind helps to frame this not as like

00:52:08   who's the good guy who's the bad guy who's right who's wrong apple should be able to do this why

00:52:13   can't apple do what it wants with its customers is the eu being mean is the eu being good like

00:52:17   you can have your opinions about it but what the eu is trying to do makes sense if you understand

00:52:26   their world view for i mean us perspective it doesn't make like you just read in that thing

00:52:29   like that apple uh uh was this was this quote from the verge no company not even a monopoly

00:52:34   like apple the thing that you just read i'm pretty sure it was from the verge yeah a monopoly like

00:52:38   apple american reads that and says apple's not a monopoly like in the smartphone in in no market

00:52:46   is apple a monopoly like they don't have like 99 smartphone share they don't have 99 share of like

00:52:52   even like air pods or like they're they're not a monopoly and it's like that's the eu doesn't care

00:52:57   that they don't dominate the eu care is that they're too big there's no like percentage market

00:53:05   share percentage profits or whatever they said it doesn't matter that they're not the only game in

00:53:09   town there's too few games in town there's not enough competition and we read that and saying

00:53:14   that's unfair like i've said this in the past trying to say you know according to us or whatever

00:53:18   it's like it's like saying honda has a monopoly on honda cars i mean they do it's kind of tautological

00:53:24   right but it's like but there are other car makers and the eu has said there's not essentially there's

00:53:28   not enough there's not enough competition and so we need to make this playing field more level

00:53:34   grubber had a post about some of the things we're going to talk about today as well saying like

00:53:38   well what is the eu saying who should decide who gets to like do things on apple's platform

00:53:42   shouldn't apple get to decide that is is the eu saying they should get to decide it and my answer

00:53:47   to that is yeah that's what they're saying they're saying you apple because you're too big and

00:53:52   android and oh whatever we are going to impose rules on you even though you made the platform

00:53:57   is your company you do the thing and in your american sensibilities and your american concept

00:54:02   of monopoly you say i should be able to do whatever the hell i want i'm a private company

00:54:05   who is the government to tell me who i can and can't allow on the app store if i say spotify

00:54:09   can't put a link to alternate payment methods it's my platform i make their if they don't like it they

00:54:13   can go somewhere else the eu is saying that would be fine if there was more competition but there's

00:54:19   not and so we've decided we're going to imply impose rules on you and that i think gets lost

00:54:25   in a lot of this discussion i mean i feel almost like i kind of got lost in grubber's thing of like

00:54:29   him not under not even understanding what they're saying it's like yeah that's 100 what they're

00:54:33   saying that's their whole point not enough competition government steps in to in theory

00:54:38   restore competition for the good of consumers now are they successful at that like the dma we don't

00:54:45   know how it's going to work we talked about in many past shows but we have some questions and

00:54:49   same thing here but i do want to just put this long-winded framing up front to put everyone in

00:54:54   the right mindset of like what's happening in the eu and why we've talked about this so much and i

00:55:00   don't know that there's much more well of course there's much more to say because it's the three

00:55:05   of us but i'm trying not to go down the rabbit hole that we find ourselves in so much about

00:55:09   apple's attitudes towards third-party developers but i mean i'm i'm not upset by this to be honest

00:55:15   with you like i i feel i feel like the more i read about the more maybe it's a little more narrow

00:55:22   than i want it to be so let me read some excerpts from the eu's actual press release about it which

00:55:26   to the best of my knowledge is the only real documentation we have so far but the eu the eu

00:55:30   press release reads in part apple is currently the sole provider of an app store where developers

00:55:35   can distribute their apps to ios users this is them essentially saying honda has a monopoly on

00:55:40   honda cars yeah the commission's investigation found that apple bans music streaming app

00:55:44   developers from fully informing ios users about alternative and cheaper music subscription services

00:55:48   available outside of the app and from providing any instructions about how to subscribe to such

00:55:53   offers these anti-steering provisions are neither necessary nor proportionate for the protection of

00:55:57   apple's commercial interests in relation to the app store on apple's smart mobile devices and

00:56:02   negatively affect the interests of ios users who cannot make informed and effective decisions on

00:56:07   where and how to purchase movement music streaming subscriptions for use on their device this is them

00:56:12   essentially like they're not saying this but the implication is that look users don't have a choice

00:56:18   to go elsewhere if you assume users are stranded on ios like there's no real choice for them to

00:56:23   go elsewhere which we know is not true they can go to android but they're basically saying like

00:56:25   there's not enough choice so that your normal answer of saying hey whatever we do on our

00:56:31   platform man they don't like it they can leave the the premise of this is that they can't make

00:56:39   effective decisions on how to purchase streaming music or whatever yeah they can't do that on ios

00:56:43   because of apple's rules but why do they have to be on ios and the eu is like it's too much man like

00:56:48   there's only two companies and they both do very similar things and so the out is not for apple or

00:56:53   android to say if they don't like it they can go to our one competitor the eu says just assume

00:56:58   they're stranded given that they're stranded given that like they have no choice like like it's like

00:57:03   the public airwaves like there's only one set of public airwaves or whatever there's only you know

00:57:06   air pollution there's only one atmosphere for all of us right there's only one ios for all of us

00:57:11   at android and ios and we all have to be there to live our lives this is why the eu has decided

00:57:15   there's insufficient competition on these two important platforms they're dispensing with the

00:57:19   notion that there is any real competition and that people can make choice and they're saying

00:57:23   given that people are essentially trapped again i know they're not but that's what given to people

00:57:27   that are where they are and realistically there's nowhere else for them to go we have to make sure

00:57:31   that this place where they're effectively trapped is fairer than it is and that i think is really

00:57:36   interesting because again when apple looks at us they're like what the hell man it's our platform

00:57:41   we should be able to do what they want and the eu is like well given that people are stuck on your

00:57:44   platform i was like well how are they stuck on our platform they can just go to android and android

00:57:47   does the same thing about apple and like honestly it's not the way we do things in the us but i see

00:57:53   their point of view and i also see how a duopoly is especially with respect to the sherman antitrust

00:57:59   act and our monopoly laws having a duopoly like uh android and ios is a very convenient like kind

00:58:06   of get out of jail free card according to us laws if it's like we're not a monopoly and never will

00:58:11   be so now if we and android more or less do kind of similar things that's competition right and

00:58:18   we all know like we all have to have mobile phones and there's like there's no place for us to go

00:58:23   except for the other company that does exactly the same thing so i kind of i kind of do feel

00:58:26   that there's insufficient competition in this market yeah and just to quickly reiterate and

00:58:31   recap the issue or at least the way i understand the issue is that apple forbids generally speaking

00:58:38   forbids people from saying hey if you don't want to buy our thing on the app store using an app

00:58:42   purchase whatever go to you know www.spotifyischeaperontheweb.com and we'll sell it to you

00:58:49   there for less money because the the implied thing there is we're not paying 30 to apple and apple has

00:58:55   made it very plain since i can remember that that is forbidden that's the anti-steering thing you

00:59:00   are not allowed to steer your customers not apple's customers your customers to your own website in

00:59:07   order to establish a relationship with them you're not you're not allowed to steer them to your own

00:59:12   website in order to sell at a cheaper uh rate than what you would sell on apple's platforms none of

00:59:18   that is allowed and that's the crux of the issue spotify doesn't like it they can just get off the

00:59:22   ios platform right isn't that isn't that a perfectly viable thing for spotify to do what's

00:59:27   the problem 100 i don't i don't know why they're whining that's what you feel like you know maybe

00:59:30   there's a better analogy like instead of users being trapped like that's not an option for

00:59:33   spotify just just stop selling to 50 of the population what's the big deal spotify

00:59:38   and setting the level of this continuing from the press release and setting the level of the fine

00:59:42   the commission took into account the duration and gravity of the infringement as well as apple's

00:59:45   total turnover and market capitalization it also factored in that apple submitted incorrect

00:59:49   information in the framework of the administrative procedure womp womp in addition the commission

00:59:53   decided to add the bait to the basic amount of the fine an additional lump sum of 1.8 billion euros

00:59:59   to ensure that the overall fine imposed on apple sufficiently deterrent in addition the fine must

01:00:04   be sufficient to deter apple from repeating the present or a similar infringement and to deter

01:00:09   other companies of a smaller size and with similar resources from committing the same or a similar

01:00:13   infringement so interestingly the eu didn't like apple's behavior like they didn't seem very

01:00:18   cooperative or nice and so they punished them for it keep this in mind for a future topic

01:00:22   the commission has also ordered apple to remove the anti-steering provisions and to refrain

01:00:26   refrain from repeating the infringement or from adopting practices with an equivalent

01:00:30   object or effect in the future dear apple get [ __ ] love the eu

01:00:37   well i don't know if two billion dollars is a is a see i'll do it nicely is a get f to response

01:00:42   because apple might be like this annoys us but we make two billion dollars in start to stop watch

01:00:47   like it's not nothing it's not nothing but apple makes a lot of money so i do like it's so hard to

01:00:54   figure out what is a deterrent versus what is like you know what is the amount that makes apple leave

01:00:58   the eu versus what is the amount that is too cheap for apple to notice i think this kind of hits the

01:01:03   right level because apple seems pretty annoyed about it but i'm not sure it deters apple from

01:01:08   anything i mean keep in mind though like you know the the amount the european commission is is you

01:01:14   know assigning as a fine seems arbitrary enough that if apple does just blatantly say all right

01:01:20   fine we'll pay it and keep doing what we're doing they can just then find them a lot more next time

01:01:24   oh yeah no i don't think they're going to keep doing it i think they'll me because a lot of the

01:01:27   stuff this is part of the debate on this is this is this is a previous ruling that is superseded

01:01:32   by the dma which doesn't allow it has disallows the anti-steering thing anyway which is part of

01:01:36   apple's response and and i expect we're going to be debating and they're going to be going through

01:01:41   court for years on whether their dma response is compliant with the dma or not i don't know

01:01:48   if that's a court for years thing but we still haven't we still don't know the answer to that

01:01:52   yeah i think it's going to be you know i i assume epic's going to fight it with that in a bit we're

01:01:55   going to i assume spotify might continue to kind of lobby against it in the background we'll get

01:02:00   to that yeah no there have been many people filing filing briefs essentially saying hey we

01:02:04   saw apple's response to the dma and we company that's out here thinks it's totally not compliant

01:02:09   just for what's that worth what for what's that's worth uh go ahead european commission and tell us

01:02:12   whether it's really compliant you know what hits home here for us is uh we have apple continuing

01:02:17   to tell this you know storyline to themselves and the press and the courts and the world

01:02:25   that effectively says that developers bring nothing to the platform and that we owe apple

01:02:32   for all of our business and that we provide no value to the platform that certainly

01:02:37   you know the iphone doesn't need spotify spotify needs the iphone the iphone doesn't need any of

01:02:41   our apps the iphone would sell itself without any apps whatsoever you know we are just sucking on on

01:02:47   the value that they're providing and we owe them everything i don't think apple has ever said that

01:02:51   that's how you feel and that's a lot of things apple says in that direction but apple has never

01:02:56   i'm going to be fair to apple they've never come straight out and said that no but that's basically

01:02:59   their argument here and you know and in their response to this they they really lean on that

01:03:03   pretty heavily uh agreed and and by the way this response is something it is first of all yeah it's

01:03:09   terribly written like whoever wrote this it had to be a very high up executive because whoever wrote

01:03:15   it didn't get edited enough and so it had to be somebody so high up they couldn't get edited

01:03:20   enough whoever wrote this should not be writing things for apple's press releases in a future

01:03:24   topic we have some we have some things that apple wrote that actually have names signed to them so

01:03:28   you you can tell me if you think it sounds like the same person it's poorly written it sounds

01:03:32   juvenile it sounds petty oh god yes and i wonder the whole time i'm reading this i'm wondering

01:03:37   who is this for who are they writing this for is it for the public because it's not a good look

01:03:44   is it for regulators because i don't think they need to write press releases to regulate

01:03:48   is it to courts i doubt it that's not really the venue for that either like who is it for

01:03:52   i think it's in the media did they think this would make them look good though it's the reason

01:03:57   we have this link is because every single article that talked about this linked to apple's response

01:04:01   and quoted it so that's who it's for there's going to be stories on this fine and apple apple wants

01:04:05   to have its say on those stories and this is apple say apple should not have this say it's for their

01:04:10   best of their for their own good they should not be saying this in this way i'm not sure how well

01:04:14   they job did it but that's the target audience now i think you're both right i think marco is

01:04:19   100 correct that this is extremely petty extremely juvenile extremely vindictive you know uh somebody

01:04:26   in the chat room just said they're acting like a petulant child couldn't agree more but i also

01:04:29   think that john is right the purpose for this is to have some sort of official statement for the

01:04:33   press so let's read a few excerpts today the european commission announced a decision claiming

01:04:37   the app store has been a barrier to competition in the digital music market the decision was reached

01:04:42   despite the commission's failure to uncover any credible evidence of consumer harm and ignores

01:04:46   the realities of a market that is thriving competitive and growing fast oh and so on that on

01:04:51   the consumer harm again from an american perspective and the various laws and cases that have been on

01:04:57   things like this they're very usually pretty well defined uh things that you have to show to be

01:05:04   evidence of consumer harm very often in us law it's fixated on prices has the price of x gone up or

01:05:11   down over time and if the price hasn't gone up then where's the harm to consumers obviously the

01:05:17   we know uh and i think most people involved in these cases know that consumer harm can take more

01:05:24   forms than just high prices uh lack of choice uh things that consumers never even get a choice to

01:05:30   pay money for because they're disallowed all of that is harm that is not as simple as saying hey

01:05:36   look at the price of this thing is gonna that's that's that would be such a hamfist way to do it

01:05:39   like the amazon model like we'll put everyone else out of business and once we have a dominant market

01:05:44   share then we'll just crank up the prices uh that that's like a you know evil pharmaceutical bro

01:05:51   level of uh because that has happened to pharmaceuticals right but and it's it's like

01:05:56   nakedly evil but like the smarter strategy is just to maintain your dominant position reap your good

01:06:01   margins and not not kill the golden goose by suddenly jacking up the prices a thousand percent

01:06:05   or whatever so apple's saying there's no consumer harm i think the whole eu thing says like look

01:06:10   here's what we consider consumer harm they don't have a choice that spotify can't explain a better

01:06:15   deal to them and yeah like the prices may be the same or lower or flatter not you know not changing

01:06:20   that much but there are many other ways to judge harm so this is a place where apple and the eu

01:06:24   essentially disagree or apple is being disingenuous and saying we don't see any consumer harm show us

01:06:29   the consumer harm the eu is like we're trying to show you the consumer harm but it's not as simple

01:06:32   as look how the price has gone up if you took your fingers out of your ears maybe we could talk to

01:06:37   you about it anyway going back to apple's response spotify has a 56 share of europe's music streaming

01:06:41   market more than double their closest competitors according to who i wonder but anyway and apple

01:06:47   pays and pays apple nothing for the services that have helped make them one of the most recognizable

01:06:51   brands in the world a large part of their success is due to the app store along with all the tools

01:06:55   and technology that spotify uses to build update and share with their app with apple users around

01:06:59   the world see this is where i think marco and i jump in and say this is it this is apple saying

01:07:04   we did all the work right but they say a large part of their success is due to the app store

01:07:08   they don't say all of their success 100 of their success they say a large part they don't even do

01:07:13   a percentage come on i don't think a lot of people are discovering spotify through the app store

01:07:19   i'm pretty sure people know about spotify who want to search for it and they just need to download

01:07:25   the spotify app i don't think the app store is really delivering a lot of value there apple is

01:07:29   not saying that they're bringing no value to the cloud that spotify brings no value to the ios

01:07:34   platform of the iphone they're towing the line they're coming right up the line and saying okay

01:07:38   i'm just saying like it's i know it makes you feel that way and that is the emotional impact of it

01:07:42   but they literally aren't saying that and as for the market share this is a great one because

01:07:46   i believe that spotify has a free tier yes that's a huge part of their business and that's got to

01:07:51   massively impact their market share how many people pay for spotify versus how many people

01:07:56   pay for apple music what does that share break down to it because you know spotify doesn't make

01:08:00   money from free customers like it wants to convert them into paying customers but like it has to pay

01:08:05   money for the for the music that the free customers stream they are negative right and so yes spotify

01:08:11   that has a free tier has 56 percent market share that is actually damning for apples that say look

01:08:17   your competitor has a free option and they're barely ahead of you or i don't know what apple

01:08:21   share is maybe it's not the other you know remaining 44 percent or whatever but like there's

01:08:25   other players but apple's a pretty big one but yeah like like i was citing this market share and

01:08:29   by the way market share is not the bo end all but citing this market share when spotify has a free

01:08:33   tier is really not particularly convincing continuing we're proud to play a key role

01:08:39   supporting spotify success a key role in supporting spotify success as we have for

01:08:44   developers of all sizes from the app store's earliest days the european commission is issuing

01:08:49   this decision just before their new regulation the digital markets act comes into force apple

01:08:53   is set to comply with dma in days and our plans include changes to the rules challenged here

01:08:57   what's clear is that this decision is not grounded in existing competition law it's an effort by the

01:09:01   commission to enforce the dma before the dma becomes law they say look you already you already

01:09:06   scolded us for this and we're changing it and we're totally compliant aren't we uh so i don't

01:09:11   know what you're doing this fine for and it's like apple you got in trouble for this before the dma

01:09:16   like you have to sort of like i know things take a long time and they overlap with each other but

01:09:20   like it's a timeline of events it's like you did this bad thing and then we pass the dma and now

01:09:25   you have to comply with that but just because like you already passed the law that's making

01:09:28   me fix this you still get punished for doing it i mean i'm again i don't necessarily agree with

01:09:33   like you can say the eu shouldn't it's it's like if you want to sell things in the eu you got to

01:09:37   deal with the e the the eu and their rules and this is how their system works and you don't get

01:09:42   to erase your pass fine because now you're doing something that makes the bad thing you did

01:09:47   impossible anyway as far as you're concerned again assuming you comply so not a strong response but i

01:09:53   think it could have been worse and i i do think that apple is trying to thread the needle uh they

01:09:58   they even had a thing the one thing i think you can really call them on it's not quoted here also

01:10:01   i'll try to do it from memory but at one point they said you know app store is great uh it's

01:10:06   a level playing field for everybody like this is not the exact language but today developers

01:10:10   compete on a level playing field on the app store apps are reviewed according to a comprehensive set

01:10:14   of rules which are designed to protect our users and meeting those rules means developer developers

01:10:17   of all sizes can reach more than a billion devices around the world all right so that's that that's

01:10:21   their level playing field argument and they've said that before or whatever and then in the same

01:10:24   document i believe they say hey we flew apple engineers out to spotify to help them with their

01:10:29   app mm-hmm that's not a level playing for how many apple engineers has apple flown out to you casey

01:10:34   to help you with your i'm not saying this is wrong i say it makes perfect sense but like apple can't

01:10:39   do both arguments in the same document and say it's a totally level playing field everybody gets

01:10:44   the same shot but we flew engineers to spotify just don't say it's a level playing field it's not

01:10:48   and also why might it have been valuable to fly engineers to spotify right right yeah why why

01:10:53   does spotify get but you get different treatment i mean maybe it's because an iphone that didn't

01:10:58   have a spotify app would be less valuable to iphone customers hmm what a concept yeah i mean

01:11:05   and again i've said for since the first time we discussed this years ago apple should do that

01:11:10   big customers and the good customer should that's one of my complaints about the app store that

01:11:14   being a quote-unquote good developer that makes quality apps doesn't get you enough privileges in

01:11:19   apple's book right agreed agreed so but all i'm saying is that in this in the same document they

01:11:24   also want to say it's a level playing field and it's obviously not nor should it be in this way

01:11:29   obviously the eu wants to make there be more competition and the main playing field they're

01:11:33   trying to level is not between different companies in the app store it is always between all the eu

01:11:39   stuff is between all the companies in the app store and the person who owns the app store the

01:11:44   company that owns the app store it's always between apple and n developers it's not between

01:11:48   like spotify and title that the eu is not trying to level the playing field between spotify and

01:11:53   title because they think spotify is getting unfair preferential treatment from apple that could be a

01:11:58   thing that they could complain about but i but that's not what they're complaining they're

01:12:00   complaining that apple who owns the platform and doesn't pay itself 30 has a huge advantage over

01:12:06   spotify we've even flown our engineers to stockholm to help spotify's teams in person

01:12:11   and the result is that when a user opens the spotify app listens to music on their commuter

01:12:14   asks siri to play a song from their library everything just works and again spotify pays

01:12:18   apple nothing those engineers that they fly out there they should have them work on apple music

01:12:23   because sometimes it doesn't just work there for real also earlier or just a bit earlier in the

01:12:27   same document our app review team has reviewed and approved 421 versions of the spotify app

01:12:32   usually with same day turnaround and frequently expedites reviews at spotify's request but yes

01:12:37   all of us are equal yeah it must be freaking nice well in all fairness app review has been a lot

01:12:41   faster recently for everybody it has been you're right you're right it is but yeah but they're

01:12:45   they're getting they're getting nice treatment and again i think they should but like that's

01:12:48   you know it's it's just weird for them to say in the same document level playing field they're all

01:12:51   developers treated the same well and the thing is and i think apple actually they do make some good

01:12:57   points in this document which is why like i see what they were going for they do have some good

01:13:03   points one of the one of the best points they make is that spotify for some reason does not use the

01:13:09   reader app exception we should explain real quick what it what it is so reader apps which is a very

01:13:16   poor name but it's the name that apple landed on are apps like ebook apps netflix things where

01:13:22   basically you're getting new content regularly and and certain apps fall into this category like you

01:13:29   know netflix and spotify where they can apply for and get an exception to this anti-steering thing

01:13:35   and that only has happened in the last few years i think i don't remember exactly what it was yeah i

01:13:39   think it was a year and a half ago or so and it's it specifically it isn't just apps that have new

01:13:43   content it's apps where like the primary purpose of the app is to access media that you have

01:13:49   purchased on their website or have a streaming subscription or something and so like netflix the

01:13:55   kindle like stuff like that that is the main purpose of the app is to consume certain predefined

01:14:00   types of content audio video books and this allows them to link out to their website by putting up

01:14:07   first putting up a scare sheet using apple sdk saying you're about to leave the web you're about

01:14:13   to leave this app and apple can't protect you from the scary scammy website stuff's gonna get stolen

01:14:18   but it but you can you can get an exception you can have a single fixed link that your app can

01:14:24   link out to with certain design requirements around what the link has to look like that

01:14:28   basically says you can create an account on netflix.com and then net Netflix.com can be

01:14:33   an underlined blue label that you can click on and it will show this scare sheet and then kick you

01:14:38   out to netflix through in the web browser and they are allowed to then have you purchase things there

01:14:43   without paying apple any commission with no that's it apple's out of the game no requirements after

01:14:48   that it is like the one major exception to the app store like you know no no external payment kind of

01:14:55   integration at all it's the one big exception apple made this exception for this one category

01:15:01   of apps the reader quote category and spotify qualifies and for some reason they don't do it

01:15:08   i think i can understand why they don't because it's so limiting like they want more essentially

01:15:13   like you know they want freedom to basically be able to have a big flashing banner that says save

01:15:18   30 lower price dollar sign this like all the rules that apple has about that link are so incredibly

01:15:22   restrictive that spotify i think strategically decided that like look let's continue to lobby

01:15:27   the eu regulation body to say we're a european company we're getting screwed by apple we want

01:15:32   you to fix things and it makes their case stronger to say look at the state of our app we don't even

01:15:38   have a way to let people go over there like maybe if they had done this then apple would say look

01:15:42   they're already linking to us there's no problem to be solved and i don't know if it makes their

01:15:45   case stronger or weaker but either way i don't think spotify is satisfied with the reader

01:15:50   exception and so their argument now has clarity of saying look here's the app uh we we can't link out

01:15:56   to our things uh we should be able to we should be able to without draconian restrictions about it

01:16:02   yeah and and because the main restrictions on it are first of all the link you link out to has to

01:16:07   be like a a statically defined url so you cannot have like a user id appended to the end of it or

01:16:13   something and so to use it to actually like bump someone out of the app buy something on your

01:16:18   website and then kick back into your app can be very cumbersome for the user and would have a low

01:16:22   conversion rate as a result so and apple knows that that's one of the reasons why they require

01:16:26   it to be a fixed url with no parameters so that's one reason but also they have actually rules

01:16:31   against like you can't say around the link in your ui this is cheaper on our website go get it here

01:16:37   for only ten dollars instead of thirteen or whatever yeah let alone by how much cheaper it is

01:16:41   like you can't you can't do is like basic marketing like this you will save this amount of money by

01:16:45   clicking here yeah you can't even say you will save money by clicking here you can say nothing

01:16:49   about it you can you can simply say in neutral language like you can create an account on our

01:16:53   website here you can create an account on our website you can attend a lab but don't say

01:16:57   anything else but and then also if you use the external payment reader app exemption that app

01:17:04   is not allowed to also use an app purchase so apple is saying fine you know what you're you're

01:17:08   going to have competition with our system you don't get you don't get our system at all and so

01:17:12   for for some apps they would rather offer both because then they can get the higher conversion

01:17:16   rates of people who will only use an app purchase then they get them as well but apple says nope if

01:17:21   you apply for this exemption you are not allowed to use our system at all we're going to take our

01:17:25   ball and go home which honestly i think that's their prerogative to do but but but at that point

01:17:31   it's not it's not fair because they're it's like oh so we can make our own system that looks as

01:17:35   nice as and works as well as in-app purchase like no you're literally not allowed to not that you're

01:17:38   not technically capable of it you're literally not allowed to make something that's as nice as

01:17:42   an app purchase and that purchase can show you the prices it can send information loop you back

01:17:46   through like you don't lose any like it's just they they are disallowed technic they're by by

01:17:51   rules not allowed to make something that actually is competitive with an app purchase and that's

01:17:56   ridiculous but that being said like i think the reader app exemption is by far the the biggest

01:18:02   hole apple has opened up in their tight grip on iap spotify qualifies to use it and they don't use

01:18:09   it i see why they wanted to what you were just saying like strategically they want to go to

01:18:14   regulators and say we're not going to do this this you know highly restrictive half-baked solution

01:18:18   because this is not what we want but i think it leaves apple a huge counter-argument to then say

01:18:23   look we gave them this door and they're willingly not taking it i'm not sure that's much of a

01:18:27   counter-argument though given who they're arguing to which is the european commission and spotify's

01:18:32   a european company and like i just when you're not in something there's not like legal precedent or

01:18:36   whatever because these are government bodies like it's a difference when we talk about these things

01:18:39   in the us and we'll talk about epic in a second but like when there's court cases and there's

01:18:43   law and there's precedent and there's rules of evidence it's different than like a lot of those

01:18:48   court cases what they say is like look if you don't like the decision then you know congress

01:18:52   should pass a law that changes this and in the eu it's not a court case where they're trying to

01:18:57   interpret current law and say whether you're violated the eu is basically just saying like

01:19:01   we're we're making a bunch of rules the dma is a bunch of new rules there that is the equivalent

01:19:06   of like here are some new rules that you have to follow if you want to be here in the u.s we just

01:19:10   accept the fact that congress can actually pass any laws uh but in the eu they can make up new

01:19:16   regulations apparently with reasonable efficiency are those regulations good or well written no but

01:19:22   they make them and so it's not like oh they have a good have a strong argument here because the eu

01:19:26   will say yeah no we decided we we don't buy that that's why we made these new rules so do it

01:19:31   i get the argument that apple makes that look they put in a lot of money and a lot of time

01:19:38   and a lot of effort making this platform that we are all as developers and as users eager to use

01:19:44   and they deserve to be compensated in some way shape or form for that effort and so far so far

01:19:49   i think i'm with them but it's what marco said right first of all they're pretty handsomely

01:19:54   compensated and second of all i don't feel like i am getting 30 of value from what they give me

01:20:02   and that's i think the disconnect is if they were doing a whole bunch more and maybe you know

01:20:09   sometime we can argue about what that would look like but if they were doing a whole much more a

01:20:12   whole bunch more for me maybe i wouldn't grumble so much about 15 to 30 but i feel like i'm getting

01:20:19   very little from the app store and i feel like i'm getting poked in the eye from apple on a

01:20:26   regular basis with regard to all these policies well maybe not me i shouldn't say that i'm not

01:20:30   personally getting poked in the eye but i'm seeing all of these other developers getting poked in the

01:20:34   eye and it kind of makes you wonder all right when is when is it my turn and and it's tough because

01:20:39   it's hard for me taking trying to take myself out of this situation as much as possible and trying

01:20:44   to be a neutral third party i get apple's point like they made the platform they want to be

01:20:50   compensated for it i get that but i think that they've really lost sight of we said this a while

01:20:54   ago they've lost sight of the fact that that platform would be a piece of [ __ ] if it wasn't

01:20:58   for all of these third-party apps right i don't think they've really embraced or understood this

01:21:03   and i don't know that they ever will short of all of us you know unifying and deciding to pull our

01:21:08   apps from the app store for a few days which will never freaking work anyway but no i just don't

01:21:12   think they'll ever get it and it's that like like entitled attitude that i just it just makes my

01:21:18   skin crawl and that's what i find so upsetting and so when something like this happens i'm like

01:21:24   yeah all right cool i'm here for it yeah and and again like and it hurts them in so many other

01:21:29   areas like again look at vision pro here's a brand new platform desperately needs software and no

01:21:34   one's there for it yeah i don't know if we want to over index on that i know i know we said that and

01:21:39   it's a it's a narrative that makes sense but like also they haven't sold a lot of them and it's

01:21:43   expensive and i think a lot of the people who i think it's part of the reason developers sat out

01:21:47   as sort of a protest but honestly they're gonna come they're gonna make apps for it if the platform

01:21:51   is successful like that's in the end that is how these things usually work like maybe they'll make

01:21:56   them grudgingly and maybe they won't be great and it won't be as popular as the iphone platform or

01:22:00   whatever but i suspect that if if they sell many millions more vision pros all those companies that

01:22:08   sat out will suddenly be like i guess we have to make an app for this thing too but but to your

01:22:12   point it's not going to be the vibrant developer ecosystem where everyone is anxious to hop on board

01:22:17   like the iphone was in the early days it just continues kind of the the sour attitude that

01:22:22   apple keeps creating among developers and and and you know small and large you know obviously the

01:22:28   large companies are not huge fans of apple right now and have not been for a while because of all

01:22:34   this stuff and and you know they've also now they're they keep souring the small developers

01:22:39   with their attitude too and i think it's going to be i think it's gonna be difficult for them to to

01:22:44   keep drumming up developer interest in ways that will benefit their platforms tremendously and and

01:22:49   it is i think a long-term strategic error as i've said before that they they don't loosen up any

01:22:55   further and it causes all these problems that will potentially affect their platforms in much larger

01:23:01   ways you know whatever profit they're making on on the difference between what they make now from

01:23:08   the app store and what they would make if they if they loosen the grip a little bit that's nothing

01:23:12   compared to what they make from a new platform's hardware sales like the iphone like the apple

01:23:18   watch like the ipad like the they they have these these platforms that need good app ecosystems they

01:23:24   need people to want to develop apps for them they need new apps that are coming on the market to be

01:23:28   developed for them first or only and right now the customer volume on mostly the iphone is really the

01:23:38   main driving factor there they're really losing a lot of the developer goodwill they've burned it

01:23:43   all over the course of the last 15 years or so like they've lost so much of it developers used

01:23:48   to be willing to make a lot of apps for platforms that didn't have massive numbers of users like

01:23:54   historically almost everything apple's ever made and now that attitude has been severely eroded

01:24:01   by the tim cook era of like squeezing every single penny out of developers and then as you start

01:24:09   seeing you know some of the hardware products mature and the growth slow down you start

01:24:14   scrounging around the couch cushions hey where can we squeeze next and you start doing really

01:24:18   ridiculous things like some of the net purchase rules and you know just starting to eye companies

01:24:22   and saying hey you're making money how can we get a piece of that and i mean it does make the money

01:24:27   in the short term but i think that is very much being counter thinking and missing the big picture

01:24:32   of what is this doing to the long-term health of our platforms and specifically our hardware

01:24:39   platforms where we make way more money than this little piddly you know app store tax yeah let's

01:24:45   hear from one small developer who's happy about apple oh but only because of the rules that they

01:24:49   just had to comply with exactly so uh riley test it who runs alt store which is a kind of side

01:24:58   loading marketplace sort of thing that was using like was using like enterprise certificates or

01:25:02   some other technically test flight stuff i don't recall exactly how it works i thought you had to

01:25:07   do something with the developer account yeah did that start in the jailbreak era yeah it's what it

01:25:12   sounds like an alternative store was a place where you could go to install apps onto your phone that's

01:25:17   not the app store and you're like wait a second i thought that was impossible well they were using

01:25:20   every possible trick in the book to try to use apple's supported schemes like enterprise

01:25:24   certificates or Tesla i don't actually know what they use but like it was never a mainstream thing

01:25:28   because it was always on the fringes of allowability so as you can imagine with the

01:25:33   with the digital marketplace act and apples in theory compliance with it now apple supports

01:25:38   third-party marketplaces and you would imagine that alt store would be first in line and setting

01:25:43   aside how the hell they got a 1 million euro oh they don't have to did you not see that they

01:25:49   apple has changed the rules oh no i didn't see that please tell me that yeah it's like yesterday

01:25:53   i think that came out it's too much news man i know it's a big week suffice to say it might

01:25:58   have even been on apple's developer site again i don't know if i'll be able to put my finger on a

01:26:02   link for you but this should have been a follow-up i'm sorry if i had seen this i would have put it

01:26:05   there nevertheless they made a few small tweaks to their um rules and procedures and policies with

01:26:12   regard to the dma stuff and one of them was and i can't remember the specifics but basically

01:26:17   you don't always or perhaps don't ever need a line of credit or whatever that term is letter

01:26:23   of credit yeah um but basically they said it isn't always always always required as they had

01:26:29   previously said so anyway the story is alt store got its marketplace kit entitlement which in

01:26:35   developer speak means they got the thing from apple that says you are now allowed to use

01:26:40   the framework that you have to use to make a third-party marketplace so alt store is going

01:26:45   to make a third-party marketplace if you're wondering whoever under these rules is actually

01:26:49   going to make a third-party marketplace now that they don't have to have a million euros in the bank

01:26:53   the answer is for one alt store so i guess good for them assuming that what apple has done is

01:26:59   compliant with the dma which we still don't know the answer to but hey everyone's making app stores

01:27:03   and you know who else is excited to make an an alternate marketplace for ios before you get the

01:27:09   real-time follow-up so from the uh from a different page linked from that newsroom post or that

01:27:14   developer newsroom post uh blah blah blah blah blah blah you can do either of the following

01:27:18   number one provide apple with a standby letter of credit in the amount of 1 million euros from

01:27:22   a financial institution that's at least a rated or equivalent by snp snp fitch or moodies and maintain

01:27:28   that standby letter of credit as long as your alternative app marketplace is in our operation

01:27:31   or and i think this is the new thing be a member of good standing in the apple developer program

01:27:36   for two continuous years or more and have an app that had more than 1 million first annual installs

01:27:41   in on ios in the eu in the prior calendar year what a weird set of requirements i mean yeah i

01:27:48   guess so weird so i guess if your junk is popular and you're going to owe us the whatever it is the

01:27:53   fee the core technology fee there was also like i said the charity and non-profit exceptions in

01:27:58   there but i guess it doesn't apply to alt star i don't think so but who knows anyway uh that that's

01:28:03   that's apparently the breaking news so one of the bits of news that we didn't get too many weeks ago

01:28:08   was that epic uh the game company that's been in big fights with apple uh had said we're totally

01:28:14   going to have our own alternative marketplace for ios in the eu and you'd be like epic how can you

01:28:19   do that you don't even have a developer account it's like no we got one we we made a new developer

01:28:24   account in like sweden or something and apple gave it to us and that was a story several weeks back

01:28:28   we didn't get to because we have too much content but basically epic got a apple developer account

01:28:32   for like some other subsidiary name thing or whatever like it's not their old account back

01:28:37   it's like a new account and then apics like we're going to use this one to make a third-party store

01:28:43   and they were super excited about it until like yesterday or today i guess yeah well because what

01:28:49   changed yeah so on the verge uh epic says that its ios game store plans are stalled because why

01:28:55   because apple has banned its developer account no not that one the new one yeah exactly the new one

01:29:02   oh my god from the verge epic's plans to release its own third-party app store on the e on ios and

01:29:07   eu could be in trouble could be in trouble after apple terminated the developer account it planned

01:29:12   to use in a blog post published today the company shared a letter sent by apple's lawyers which

01:29:16   called epic quote verifiably untrustworthy quote apple does not believe that epic will comply with

01:29:21   its contractual commitments under its developer agreement yeah so all right so let me let me just

01:29:26   say so epic we only have epic side of this which is always suspect because you know there's a lot

01:29:30   of bad blood there whatever epic posted a bunch of images of text because they're dumb um of email

01:29:35   exchanges like the emails between them and apple i'm sure this is not an exhaustive list of email

01:29:41   so it's not every back and forth it's the back and forth epic wanted us to see but just in those back

01:29:46   and forth there's lots of juicy stuff i don't know like apple did approve this account like they had

01:29:51   to go through talks with apple and say hey you know we know we're like we're epic and we would

01:29:56   like to make a new account because we're gonna make a third-party store is that cool like we

01:30:00   didn't see that exchange but that obviously happened like apple didn't accidentally i don't

01:30:03   know that it did because why it's all automated like if i wanted to create a new store account

01:30:08   right now no no i'm pretty sure epic even said hey we work with apple to get our developer account

01:30:13   it's not like apple just noticed it appeared apple allowed this account to exist and then i think

01:30:19   through some ill-advised exchanges like epic epic was complaining to apple that they didn't get

01:30:25   access to something and they thought it should be treated well like well did you see the verge had

01:30:29   the emails like the verge posted the emails for between epics people and phil shiller but again

01:30:34   we don't know if it's all the emails but what i'm saying is how did epic begin conversing in an

01:30:40   adversarial way that eventually led to and we're going to get to exactly how because it's funny

01:30:44   led to their banning because it's kind of like you had the account if you had just kept your mouth

01:30:49   shut and not antagonized apple and gotten into a fight maybe you'd still have your developer account

01:30:55   because the reason their account was rejected again it's not because apple didn't know they

01:30:59   created one and was surprised to see it and said oh we totally need to ban that apple allowed it

01:31:02   to be created no knew it had been created but then essentially i think epic basically like

01:31:07   made a poor choice to get in a fight with apple and so let's let's just go through the the broad

01:31:15   strokes of that fight uh like you can you can you see the emails we'll link to them you can look at

01:31:20   the stupid images or whatever but here here's what it boils down to you should read read phil shiller

01:31:24   basically explaining why apple has decided to ban this account after allowing it to be created

01:31:31   in the past epic has entered into agreements with apple and then broken them for example you

01:31:34   testified that epic games inc entered into the developer program with full understanding of its

01:31:38   terms and then chose to intentionally breach the agreement with apple and by the way you and this

01:31:43   you is this is epic he's he's talking to tim sweeny and epic you also testified that epic deliberately

01:31:47   violated apple's rules to make a point and for financial gain more recently you have described

01:31:52   our dma compliance plan as quote hot garbage quote a quote horror show quote and a quote devious new

01:31:58   instance of malicious compliance quote and you have complained about what you called quote junk

01:32:03   fees quote and quote apple taxes quote your colorful colorful criticism of our dma compliance

01:32:09   plan coupled with epic's past practice of intentionally violating contractual provisions with

01:32:13   to with which it disagrees strongly suggests that epic sweden does not intend to follow the rules

01:32:18   another intentional breach could threaten the integrity of the ios platform as well as the

01:32:22   security and privacy of users you have stated that allowing enrollment of epic gabe sweden in the

01:32:27   developer program is a is quote a good faith move by apple quote we invite you to provide us with

01:32:32   written assurance that you are also acting in good faith and that epic game sweden will despite your

01:32:37   public actions and rhetoric honor all of its commitments in plain and qualified terms please

01:32:42   tell us why we should trust epic this time so this is phil shiller a named person in an actual email

01:32:48   to epic saying hey you burned us before remember that time where you intentionally broke the rules

01:32:52   and we had a lawsuit and we won and we kicked you out of the store do you remember that and now we

01:32:55   let you have this you know epic game sweden thing and you're telling us you want an alternative app

01:33:00   store tell us you're going to be good provide us with written assurance that you're acting in good

01:33:05   faith tell us that you're going to follow the rules so here's tim swinney ceo of epic here's

01:33:10   tim swinney's reply thanks for reaching out epic and it's such corporate speak i love it epic and

01:33:15   its subsidiaries are acting in good faith and will comply with all terms of current and future

01:33:20   agreements with apple and we'll be glad to provide apple with any specific further assurances on the

01:33:24   topic that you'd like that's the entire email by the way that's it so phil shiller says epic you've

01:33:30   been bad are you going to be good tell us in writing you're going to be good tim swinney says

01:33:35   in a very very short paragraph we're totally going to be good we will comply with all your terms

01:33:40   current and future if there's anything specific you want us any specific assurances if you want

01:33:44   us to say specifically we won't like tp your house like we'll say it just let us know so i

01:33:51   saw this exchange and i'm like all right well so phil shiller is basically saying look we don't

01:33:56   like you you're bad you're saying mean things about us seems like you're going to break the

01:34:00   rules tell us you're not going to break them tim swinney says we totally not going to break the

01:34:03   rules here's apple's response mr swinney's response to that request was wholly insufficient

01:34:09   he's the ceo how is that not credible anyway it boiled down to an unsupported trust us i mean well

01:34:17   yeah what did he want what could be in that document in text when written form that would

01:34:23   not be trust is there some kind of like like blockchain derived like trusted intermediate

01:34:30   like needs it notarized you asked for written assurances you got written assurances and it's

01:34:35   like yeah they were wholly insufficient like was there not enough groveling did he not apologize

01:34:42   for the hot garbage i have to assume there's a lot more going on here that was not part of

01:34:49   the correspondence yeah like is this this is not all the emails maybe there has to be more to this

01:34:53   than this i mean because first of all i mean look this this is really stupid that this even happened

01:34:59   it's like a flame-worn usenet it totally is it is and and i understand if apple really wants to

01:35:06   still stick their finger in epic's eye but then why let them create the second account in the

01:35:11   first place yeah it's it's almost like they changed their mind of anyway finish reading

01:35:15   apple's response here are the parts that we've excerpted from it all right so again apple's

01:35:18   response mr swinney's response to that request is wholly insufficient and not credible it boiled

01:35:22   down to an unsupported trust us history shows however that epic is verifiably untrustworthy

01:35:27   hence there there it is hence the request for meaningful comm commitments and the minimal

01:35:32   assurances in mr swinney's kurt response not enough groveling swiftly undercut by a litany

01:35:38   of public attacks on apple's policies compliance plan and business model they provide an example

01:35:42   tweet well okay so now i think we have to uh as uh since we've made this running joke for like

01:35:49   years and years now we have to now say this is a legit example where running to the press did not

01:35:54   help it's true because they're like you're still being mean to us in tweets basically they're

01:36:01   saying uh you're you are unverifiably untrustworthy so like why ask for assurances from somebody who

01:36:07   no matter what you say you're not going to trust them and then saying and also you keep being mean

01:36:12   to us well and and why again like what whenever they gave them that new account like two weeks

01:36:17   ago whenever that was like what changed between the lawsuit a few years ago and that that then

01:36:23   changed back i think apple thought they were like this this the reason i refer this to like a flame

01:36:28   war like an argument online is like this is no longer a company versus company it's so nakedly

01:36:33   person versus person like i don't like you and i don't like your face and you're not being

01:36:38   sufficiently deferential and i don't trust you and i asked for assurances but you weren't nice

01:36:43   enough and you're making mean tweets about us so yeah and again i'm not saying whether this is

01:36:47   right or wrong legally legal or whatever i'm just characterizing what we're seeing here and in the

01:36:51   end a lot of these corporate things do boil down to that as corporations are run by individuals

01:36:55   and individuals have feelings and emotions and do stuff like this but you almost never especially

01:37:01   when it comes to apple get to see this personal indignity and uh and and this final one by this

01:37:09   apple we say apple response i think they had they went through their law firm to do it or whatever

01:37:12   but it still reads like it's phil it still reads like it's phil shiller saying it personally yeah

01:37:17   so continuing moreover a recent submission in the australian litigation suggests that epic games

01:37:22   sweden ab is part of a global effort to undermine or evade apple's rules it's a grand insidious

01:37:27   conspiracy apple is rightly concerned that epic game sweden ab is does not intend to adhere to its

01:37:32   contractual commitments to apple and is in fact a vehicle to manipulate proceedings in other

01:37:36   jurisdictions and by the way uh epic games sweden ab is the that's the account that they got like to

01:37:41   make their app store given the past and current conduct of epic apple cannot allow epic games

01:37:45   sweden ab to be part of its ecosystem please be advised that apple has effective immediately

01:37:50   terminated the developer program membership of epic games sweden ab as you know in addition to

01:37:53   the concerns we have outlined above the u.s judgment expressly provides that quote apple

01:37:58   has the contractual right to terminate its dpla with any or all and then i lost the rest of the

01:38:04   quote yeah sorry the last thing that's going on but what they're basically saying is hey remember

01:38:07   that court case we won against in the u.s part of the judgment was we can totally deny you for any

01:38:11   reason and guess what we're gonna um um we're gonna deny you and we don't need to tell you why

01:38:15   but they did they said you're mean to us and we don't like you and we don't trust you and

01:38:19   even though you said you're gonna follow the rules we don't think you are in fact we think this

01:38:23   company is part of this wider effort to undermine us in other jurisdictions and you know the apple

01:38:29   epic uh won a court case against apple in the u.s not in the eu and the epic versus you know the

01:38:35   what the eu is going to say about apple versus epic if anything will be interesting to see but

01:38:41   this is just like i'm gonna say it's unseemly it's unseen before all parties but epic like i feel

01:38:48   like tim swinney has always just been out there as a personality and he's he is who he is and

01:38:53   especially in the gaming world this is unfortunately not as uh uncommon as you

01:38:58   might think where there are big personalities trash talking each other in the press or whatever

01:39:01   but that's not how apple usually works and this is not like discovery in a court case because we

01:39:07   saw so many good things in the epic trial for example this is apple emailing with a big company

01:39:12   and the big company doing one of the rudest things you can do as an individual is like i'm just going

01:39:17   to post all our private emails that we've back and forth because they show you to be a jerk

01:39:21   that's right up their alley right and by the way did epic show all the emails or is epic you know

01:39:26   like well we'll see that's apple's mo is usually not to say hey you didn't post all the emails but

01:39:30   it's more like to you know give responses through their lawyers um this is this is mostly i know

01:39:35   this just seems like it's a silly thing and honestly it is i just thought it was super

01:39:40   entertaining i don't think there's any big news here other than uh apple's dma compliance and

01:39:46   third-party marketplaces that whole thing even if it is compliant it's not going great for anybody

01:39:51   i mean alt store got their marketplace kit thing but they are a small player in the grand scheme of

01:39:56   things epic it seemed like apple epic or patching things up but somehow epic got re-entangled and

01:40:02   pissed off apple again and got booted out again and it's just who's where are all these third-party

01:40:07   marketplaces giving increased competition to the people in the eu we talked about it when we talked

01:40:11   about the the dma compliance is this actually is the dma actually achieving the ends that uh

01:40:17   the the eu wants it to achieve i'm going to say the answer remains no it's not it's not working

01:40:26   well uh it's because you know because the apple's compliance with the dma is incredibly restrictive

01:40:32   because apple is still wielding sort of personally vindictive power against the people that doesn't

01:40:37   want to have stores and the number of people who would even like epic is one of the few people who

01:40:42   would want to have a store because they'd want to have it out of spite essentially like even if it

01:40:45   costs the money they just want to have it and be in there and everyone else is like these terms don't

01:40:49   look great so things things are not going well in the i don't know if they're not going well for the

01:40:56   eu they're not going to apple i say both they're not going well for either party in this whole

01:41:00   thing and apple we didn't even have time to put this in the notes but apple just released ios 17.4

01:41:05   which has all their supposed dma compliance and all the scare screens and all the pick your default

01:41:10   browser and all that stuff and people who are looking at that are saying this i mean the choice

01:41:16   is good and you know making apple comply and giving people browser choice is good or whatever

01:41:20   but the user experience is worsened because of the kind of passive aggressive way that apple

01:41:26   has implemented all this so and here we are in the us where we don't get any of this which is

01:41:33   both a blessing and a curse but we do get to watch it play out yeah i think part of the problem is

01:41:40   that the eu regulations seem to be written i mean look this is all maybe above our heads but it

01:41:48   seems from the outside that they are written with a certain degree of optimism about how they will

01:41:52   be followed and over and over again we see apple dodge and weave and and find new ways to be

01:41:59   prickly and stingy it seems like no matter what regulation has in mind for how things quote should

01:42:07   be in in the regular in the regulators mind apple finds ways around it very easily and very deftly

01:42:13   and and then the whole thing is kind of a joke and doesn't really achieve what they wanted to achieve

01:42:19   i don't know why anyone thinks it's going to be different you know with different uh different

01:42:24   attempts at the same thing well if they if they say apple's dma compliance is in fact not compliant

01:42:29   then the apple would have to go back and change things to make it more compliant and i don't know

01:42:36   how long that can go back and forth but i think the teeth that the eu put on the dma are bigger

01:42:40   than the we'll just find you i have some it's like some percentage or something it's it's some number

01:42:45   that would be monstrous for apple so somehow apple and the eu are going to have to work this out

01:42:50   at this point i really hope the eu doesn't say we looked at apple's response and we have determined

01:42:54   that it is compliant because that's basically them admitting we screwed up when we wrote our

01:42:58   regulation right because if this is compliant you screwed up if they say it isn't compliant then how

01:43:03   does that resolve itself what is that what do you want apple to change how do they have and they do

01:43:07   that back and forth and it's not this is not great like this is one of the benefits of the uh the more

01:43:14   uh the the system that uh people in america are more used to is like oh it's competition between

01:43:19   companies and they all work in their best interests and the marketplace sorts it out but all these

01:43:23   things that we're talking about here is like well when that stops working when there's too little

01:43:27   competition how do you solve that it's like well that's when the government has to step in that's

01:43:31   why we have antitrust laws and doing that essentially taking a competitive marketplace

01:43:37   that has become insufficiently competitive your opinion and putting the competition back in not

01:43:43   by adding new competitors but by essentially making the players who are dominating it now

01:43:49   saying there's certain things that they can't do it's really hard because it's like the government

01:43:54   saying be less successful companies and that's not a thing that companies like and that's also

01:44:02   kind of a form of impairing competition so trying to restore competition through regulation is

01:44:08   actually really really hard it's an important thing and it's the role of government to do that

01:44:12   they shouldn't shirk that because it's hard but i do want to acknowledge that it is hard because

01:44:16   a lot of things that you can do either don't work or make things worse thanks to our sponsors this

01:44:21   week squarespace and trade and thanks to our members who support us directly you can join us

01:44:26   at atp.fm slash join and we will talk to you next week now the show is over they didn't even mean to

01:44:38   begin because it was accidental oh it was accidental john didn't do any research marco and casey wouldn't

01:44:48   let him because it was accidental it was accidental and you can find the show notes at atp.fm

01:44:59   and if you're into twitter you can follow them at c-a-s-e-y-l-i-s-s so that's casey list m-a-r-c-o

01:45:12   a-r-m-n-t-marco armen s-i-r-a-c-u-s-a syracusa it's accidental

01:45:29   so we didn't have time for ask atp this week but we have one relevant ask atp topic that we thought

01:45:39   maybe we could bump into the after show mark robinson writes if you were apple ceo for a day

01:45:46   and only had enough time to resolve just one of apple's many legal problems which problem would

01:45:50   you resolve and how very good question john can we get all your whining and moaning about the

01:45:55   parameters of the question out of the way real quick so we can then answer it yeah my main wine

01:45:59   is what defines a single legal problem of course because like take the eu for example the anti-steering

01:46:08   thing is that one legal problem or can you combine that with the dma or are those two separate legal

01:46:14   problems and you have to pick which one you want to resolve is it one court case anyway difficult

01:46:19   i know what they're getting at though i understand the spirit of the question if the letter of it is

01:46:22   very difficult to define also we're gonna we're gonna breeze right over the fact that it's pretty

01:46:26   much impossible to solve anything in one day yes we are i know but it's it's the i think it's like

01:46:30   a magic wand like you have you have uh you know a magic wand that can do it yeah solve one legal

01:46:34   problem ish somehow yeah we're not saying how to solve it i'm i'm gonna say it's the magic wand

01:46:39   thing because otherwise it's like well how do you solve it if there was a easy solution apple would

01:46:42   have done it by now or well not really anyway magic wand magic wand is in play right magic

01:46:48   wand is in play uh so i'm gonna pull a top four and deviate from the purpose of the question and

01:46:54   answer a slightly different question entirely if i were apple ceo for a day and i only had enough

01:46:58   time to resolve one problem that maybe is legal but maybe isn't i would get the heck out of china

01:47:03   like as best as i can and i think that includes you know having handed over uh icloud is that a

01:47:09   legal problem it's just i i already said i'm i'm taking a turn all right you're bad influence

01:47:15   marco yeah i know it's it's true it's the devil on my shoulder um no i think i would i i it makes

01:47:21   me feel really gross what they've done with you know handing over or having all their software

01:47:25   running on on china controlled servers for icloud or i forget the details i might have that slightly

01:47:30   wrong but you get the point i'm driving at i don't love that i don't love that all the manufacturing

01:47:34   is there i get why i get why they did the icloud thing i get why the manufacturing is there but

01:47:39   i would divest from china using my magic wand i would divest from china as quickly and as

01:47:44   effectively as i possibly could because to me i think that is the number one thing that should

01:47:51   keep apple up at night and i don't know that it is it might be but that's the thing that scares

01:47:55   me the most and that's what i would do which i know it's not in two ways so i think that in one

01:47:59   way that's a good use of a magic wand because that is like incredibly hard to do i believe apple is

01:48:03   doing it but it's going to take like just so many years and so difficult to do but on the other hand

01:48:07   it is the worst thing to use a magic wand on because if you did have that magic wand and you

01:48:11   used it that that would invoke maximum retaliation from china essentially apple would be out of china

01:48:17   which is a huge market which part of the reason apple is doing things the way they are and slowly

01:48:22   kind of trying to disentangle from china real slow but never but real slow is because they want to

01:48:28   continue to sell products to the billions of people in china oh yeah no i get it if you were

01:48:32   to magic wand your way out of china china would be like sorry you're gone kind of like facebook right

01:48:37   it's like no no no more china for you i hope you're happy with what you've done by magic

01:48:43   wanding a gigantic supply chain into existence and presumably magic wanding millions of people

01:48:48   to work that supply chain this is definitely not a legal problem that you can solve and it's really

01:48:52   stretching the the magic wand because replacing china manufacturing is such a gargantuan problem

01:48:58   that it's like multi-decade thing that only apple could possibly even have a chance of of doing and

01:49:05   i still don't know if they're going to be successful but i i like your uh i like your

01:49:10   chutzpah even though you can't read the question it didn't solve a legal problem right all right

01:49:15   so marco since i i'm hoping that you will also take a left turn or perhaps a right turn to my

01:49:19   left turn uh what is your answer uh i'm going to continue on the theme of the episode a little bit

01:49:25   and i i want to my modification would be or my action would be to try to diffuse the tension

01:49:33   around app store payments in a way that is most likely to actually be somewhat palatable to apple

01:49:41   and least likely to disrupt their precious services revenue while also providing the maximum

01:49:45   amount of like relief on the pressure and around this and so my proposal here is remember that

01:49:52   reader rule we were talking about earlier the reader exception where quote reader apps that

01:49:57   have like you know av services or books or whatever can link out to external payments

01:50:02   after showing a scare sheet with a whole bunch of you know qualifications and restrictions on

01:50:07   what the url can be and how it's displayed but once you're linked out to safari for the payments

01:50:12   you owe apple no commissions you have to track nothing you have to have them audit your books

01:50:16   never like there there's no other restrictions on it but right now it's only for those reader apps

01:50:22   my proposal would be allow all apps except games to use that exception with a few modifications

01:50:33   so you would still have the ability to link out just like the current system you would have to

01:50:39   apply and get that entitlement so apple can track it and and look at it and make sure it works the

01:50:44   way they want it to it would still show the scare sheet first to warn people you're going out to a

01:50:50   website this is not going to be through apple etc you still pay apple no commissions on those sales

01:50:55   what i would modify besides what apps are allowed to use it would be remove the restrictions on the

01:51:02   url being a single url let it have a query parameter i don't care remove the restrictions

01:51:07   on the language around the ui of the url let people say create an account on a website and

01:51:12   save money whatever they already can't use iap i would retain though the one rule that requires

01:51:19   part of the reader exception rule now is you are required to use the store kit api to check to see

01:51:25   if purchases are enabled on the device because there are situations like if you have a device

01:51:29   for a young kid where a lot of times parents will use the parental controls to disable in-app

01:51:35   purchase for that device entirely just to keep the kid from getting in trouble so that is one

01:51:40   one feature that makes sense other than that remove all the restrictions on how it needs to

01:51:44   be designed all the you the you know not being able to tell people you can go make a purchase here

01:51:49   just let all apps choose if they want to to link out using the scare sheet and using this framework

01:51:56   and they would still have the trade-off of the not supporting apple's in-app purchase system because

01:52:00   that wouldn't be allowed anymore but fine if that's when i choose that that's fine and by

01:52:04   not letting games do it by letting all other apps do it except games you remove a huge amount of

01:52:12   anti-competitive accusations and and regulatory pressure from them because most types of

01:52:18   businesses that are being worst affected by apples in-app purchase policies and taxes would

01:52:24   then have this major relief valve to get out if they want to and then by not letting games do it

01:52:31   you keep the vast majority of your services revenue because it turns out as we've learned

01:52:34   from various court cases and disclosures it turns out that the huge vast majority i think it was

01:52:40   like 87 according to a court case like a year or two ago the vast majority of apple's in-app

01:52:45   purchase tax revenue is from games it's so it's not like the netflixes of the world because most

01:52:51   of them don't use in-app purchase anymore anyway they wouldn't even lose that much from this because

01:52:57   the actual revenue they make is mostly game based if you did this and let all apps use this if they

01:53:02   wanted to with those trade-offs i think you really lift a lot of the pressure off apple in terms of

01:53:09   all the scrutiny of this and you give up almost no revenue it's also very very good answer i dig that

01:53:14   that's not very magic wandy and i'm not sure which legal problem it's solving you could say it's

01:53:18   solving the anti-steering thing but in a different way but apple would say they already solved the

01:53:21   anti-steering thing but only apple believes that yeah well so so i'm going to use that same loophole

01:53:27   to say that the one legal problem i would solve is the dma and you would say well apple already

01:53:31   solved that well we don't have a ruling on that yet apple thinks they solved it jury's still out

01:53:35   but it's not a jury anyway uh so i'm going to pick the dma and i would magic wand that one

01:53:40   and the reason i would is because i think that is the the most comprehensive legal challenge they

01:53:45   face because it gets at the as i said before it gets at the heart of the issue which is like

01:53:49   there's not enough competition and this is trying to restore that competition and that is a legal

01:53:53   problem for apple because apple doesn't want to do that uh that's the one i would magic wand how

01:53:58   i would magic wand it to uh since both of you offered solutions especially marco with more

01:54:03   details i would say um essentially realign incentives within apple to make your digital

01:54:13   marketplace the app store compete based on the quality of the marketplace as opposed to

01:54:19   competing because it's you know because you make rules that make it so that you always win or that

01:54:23   you have an advantage and all that other stuff whatever so open the marketplace up run your own

01:54:28   app store not at break even but do the marco thing of like almost no commissions for anybody except

01:54:32   for games because they can tolerate it and compete based on what you have going for you it's i mean

01:54:38   including some of the things that only the app store can do but mostly do it based on like look

01:54:42   you're not going to go to another store because your commissions are low we basically do that cost

01:54:46   we just charge for that you know our payment processing thing is 30 how about three percent

01:54:50   for everybody except for you games um in-app purchase is a good system no restrictions on what

01:54:56   you can do you can make your own awesome system you can link out whatever but we think you'll use

01:54:59   ours because it's good oh you don't uh you want some features from that purchase you want better

01:55:03   features in app store connect we'll compete based on that compete like i think apple would still win

01:55:09   that competition a because they have such a huge head start with historical like the historical

01:55:14   momentum of what people expect from that platform that they could coast on not only being a little

01:55:19   bit better for years but b realign your incentives everyone working on the app store should have

01:55:26   third-party app stores that they look at and say we need to make our store better than those stores

01:55:31   for consumers and developers by doing things that people like not by applying rules to them to tell

01:55:39   them they can't do things that developers like they can't do things that customers like because

01:55:43   we won't let them how about we do things that developers and customers like to keep the 100%

01:55:50   market fair we currently have and yes some of the market share would bleed out or whatever but like

01:55:53   that's that's the legal problem i would solve and i would solve it by like it sounds from apple for

01:55:59   today's apple perspective they say what do you mean give up i'm like if that's how you have to

01:56:03   say it to yourself yeah but basically like you know i'm not saying run the app store at breakeven

01:56:07   like you can still get your money from games because i think they will tolerate that but

01:56:11   make your app store you're gonna purchase your payment processing your stuff win because they

01:56:16   are the best for consumers and developers not because you forbid anyone else from doing anything

01:56:20   better than you