497: The Poison Pill


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:08   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 497 for January 29th, 2024.

00:00:16   Today's show is brought to you by Notion and Oodie Pizza Ovens.

00:00:20   My name is Mike Hurley and I'm joined by Jason Snow. Hi, Jason Snow.

00:00:24   Hi, Mike Hurley. How are we so close to Upgrade 500?

00:00:26   I know. I have a little task which is like check the 500 draft.

00:00:30   Yeah, really.

00:00:31   I'll be doing that soon.

00:00:32   Wild.

00:00:34   I have a Snow Talk question for you, Jason.

00:00:35   It comes from Eli, last name withheld, who says,

00:00:38   "Jason, did you enjoy the Flop House live on Friday?

00:00:41   I hope I wasn't too much of an overbearing fan of Upgrade."

00:00:45   No, Eli was very nice.

00:00:46   I did very much enjoy the Flop House live on Friday.

00:00:48   It turned out, although Eli did and his wife chatted with me and my wife briefly,

00:00:54   then Merlin and his kid sat down at their table.

00:00:58   And then we didn't speak to them again because they just talked to Merlin and Merlin's kid after that.

00:01:05   So, yeah.

00:01:06   That's pretty great. Did you speak to, did you see Merlin?

00:01:09   I gave a little hug to Merlin. Yeah.

00:01:11   I mean, he saw me, he spotted me and because, because I think Eli said,

00:01:14   "Oh, you know, we were just talking to Jason."

00:01:15   And then our eyes locked across, you know, two tables.

00:01:18   And he came over and gave me a hug and we chatted a couple of times and made jokes about John Syracuse.

00:01:23   You know, as you do. As you do.

00:01:25   Basically when any of us get together, there's always jokes about John.

00:01:30   Well, you gotta, you know.

00:01:30   Can you believe, by the way, can you believe the Mac Pro?

00:01:34   I just like, I feel like I can't believe from last time.

00:01:37   That John picked the current Mac Pro as the Hall of Shame?

00:01:41   Yes.

00:01:41   I just, I can't, I can't accept it.

00:01:43   I can believe it because it's John.

00:01:46   No, no.

00:01:47   I just, I can't.

00:01:49   I don't endorse it.

00:01:50   I'll put a link in the show notes to one of our video clips.

00:01:53   So you can see my reaction for when, for John's pick.

00:01:57   Because it's-

00:01:58   You were not happy.

00:01:59   No, I wasn't happy.

00:02:00   Did the two times people flipped off the camera,

00:02:03   make it into the video version?

00:02:04   Do we know that?

00:02:05   I don't know if that happened or not.

00:02:07   I don't, I don't know why-

00:02:08   There were two times where people got sniped for picks

00:02:11   and gave the finger to the picking person.

00:02:14   Anyway, I was a little behind the scenes about that.

00:02:16   Wow, look at you now.

00:02:17   Throwing it out there.

00:02:20   If you would like to send in a snow talk question of your own

00:02:22   to help us open a future episode of Upgrade,

00:02:27   just go to upgradefeedback.com and send it in.

00:02:30   We were talking a little bit about the 40th anniversary

00:02:33   of the Mac draft just there.

00:02:34   That's what we were referring to.

00:02:36   Jason spoke about the video.

00:02:38   This is, I think, the best video episode of the show so far.

00:02:42   So-

00:02:43   Certainly.

00:02:44   If you've been wanting, you know,

00:02:44   maybe you want to see what it's like,

00:02:45   maybe you want to see what a video version of the show

00:02:47   is like, wonderful video editor, Chip,

00:02:49   did a great job with this episode.

00:02:51   Absolutely.

00:02:52   We have video of every participant in the draft,

00:02:54   and so people can go and check that out.

00:02:57   I'll say, I also just wanted to thank so many Upgradients

00:03:00   who said so many nice things about that episode.

00:03:03   It was, I was terrified about that episode.

00:03:06   I didn't think it was going to work.

00:03:07   I thought it was too many people,

00:03:09   and I was worried that it wasn't going to work.

00:03:10   But as we were doing it, I was like, oh, this is working.

00:03:13   And so, Jason, you were right to push for that episode.

00:03:16   It was a good idea from you.

00:03:18   Like I said, it's the one, the funny thing,

00:03:21   I also heard from some people who don't know what a draft is,

00:03:23   and I had to explain what sports drafts are.

00:03:25   Oh, okay.

00:03:26   You pick, and then once somebody picks it,

00:03:28   nobody else can pick it, and you pick in sequence.

00:03:30   They clearly don't listen to Upgrad, these people.

00:03:33   Yeah, well, or they just don't understand.

00:03:35   It may be that they were new listeners to Upgrad,

00:03:38   which is great.

00:03:39   We welcome them.

00:03:40   But, so I had to explain that to a few people.

00:03:43   But what I've learned in the incomparable many drafts

00:03:47   that we've done over the years is that

00:03:49   while I am deeply reluctant to have a large panel

00:03:53   on a regular episode,

00:03:54   our panels are large enough as it is, right?

00:03:57   But for a draft episode, I'll put 10 people on.

00:04:01   I don't care.

00:04:02   Because although people do chime in and all that,

00:04:05   the fact that it's a turn-taking format

00:04:07   makes it a lot easier.

00:04:09   It's more manageable.

00:04:10   It's not perfect.

00:04:11   It is hard, but it's more manageable.

00:04:13   And so we had a smaller group than an incomparable draft.

00:04:17   And I know it was a lot and terrifying to you,

00:04:20   but I thought it would work because of the turn-taking.

00:04:24   And it did.

00:04:25   So, yeah.

00:04:26   Yeah, it came up really well.

00:04:28   And if you do want more on the 40th anniversary of the Mac,

00:04:31   Jason wrote a bunch of stuff on The Verge,

00:04:34   and on Six Colors.

00:04:35   I'll put links to all that in the show notes.

00:04:37   I was actually hoping we could talk about

00:04:38   some of this today,

00:04:39   but we got some other stuff that we need to cover.

00:04:42   Other stuff to talk about.

00:04:43   But yeah, I mean, we also gave,

00:04:46   did a long episode about the 40th anniversary of the Mac.

00:04:49   So this podcast has fulfilled its need.

00:04:51   But yeah, I wrote 1,500 words or whatever

00:04:53   about it at The Verge.

00:04:54   Always nice to see an article I written

00:04:56   at the top of The Verge.

00:04:57   That's fun.

00:04:58   And then I wrote another 1,500 words or so

00:05:00   at Six Colors about it.

00:05:01   And then I have a piece where I talked to

00:05:04   Greg Jostwiak a little bit, just very briefly about it,

00:05:07   because that's what I seem to do every 10 years,

00:05:09   is check in with Apple executives about

00:05:11   where they reassure me that the Mac is not going away.

00:05:14   That's a trend I've discovered

00:05:17   in how I apparently live my life.

00:05:20   So yeah.

00:05:21   - One last piece of follow-up here.

00:05:23   Apple has not been successful in winning the many appeals

00:05:27   that they've been going through with the Apple Watch

00:05:29   and the blood oxygen sensor.

00:05:31   And so it now has decided to continue selling

00:05:36   both the Apple Watch Series 9 and the Apple Watch Ultra 2

00:05:39   with the blood oxygen sensor disabled.

00:05:44   That's what they're doing.

00:05:45   So they've just disabled it.

00:05:46   It doesn't work.

00:05:47   It's still in there, I believe, but it's not happening.

00:05:50   And they're gonna continue down the lawmaking process

00:05:53   and the legal process here,

00:05:55   which I find the whole thing to be very strange.

00:05:59   But there you go.

00:06:00   If you're in the US and you don't have an Apple Watch

00:06:03   and you want one, well,

00:06:04   that feature's not gonna work for you.

00:06:06   And that's the way it is.

00:06:08   - I have some breaking follow-up.

00:06:12   - Okay.

00:06:13   I'm gonna put it here.

00:06:14   Is it follow-up?

00:06:15   I don't know, but I'm gonna put it here

00:06:16   'cause we have so much to talk about today.

00:06:18   I'm just gonna say, we do this podcast on Zoom.

00:06:20   - Yep.

00:06:21   - Breaking just now, Zoom has announced

00:06:23   they are doing a Vision OS app.

00:06:25   It will support personas

00:06:27   and it will support a spatial experience

00:06:29   to make meetings immersive.

00:06:31   So will there be a immersive version of upgrade in Zoom

00:06:37   on a Vision Pro at some point?

00:06:39   Only time will tell, but this makes it,

00:06:41   I'd say, a little more likely.

00:06:44   - Huh.

00:06:44   - Yeah.

00:06:46   - So reading from The Verge,

00:06:48   "Zoom says it's planning on bringing more features

00:06:52   "to the app later this spring,

00:06:53   "including something called real-world pinning.

00:06:56   "This is supposed to make calls feel more immersive

00:06:58   "by letting Vision Pro users pin

00:07:00   "up to five Zoom meeting participants in a physical space

00:07:04   "while removing the caller's background."

00:07:06   - Hmm, yeah.

00:07:08   Well, they have some weird tech in Zoom now

00:07:11   where you can have a, it's like a fake meeting room

00:07:15   and it'll cut out the people's, just their body,

00:07:19   not the background and place them in that space.

00:07:22   - Yeah.

00:07:22   - So it's kind of,

00:07:23   they're already experimenting with stuff like this.

00:07:25   So I imagine there's gonna be more of that going on.

00:07:28   But I don't know, just, it seems like people are starting

00:07:33   to announce their Vision Pro apps, is what I'm saying.

00:07:36   I like, yeah, this is all,

00:07:40   this is all starting to happen.

00:07:42   I have multiple app announcements in my mailbox, right?

00:07:45   - Oh yeah?

00:07:46   - Yeah.

00:07:47   - Oh boy, well, that's exciting.

00:07:48   I'm excited about that.

00:07:50   - Mm-hmm.

00:07:51   - This episode is brought to you by Notion.

00:07:55   There is no shortage of helpful AI tools available today,

00:07:59   but using them means switching back and forth

00:08:02   and from one tool to another tool,

00:08:03   from this tool to that tool, copy, paste.

00:08:06   Like you just, you're kind of like running

00:08:08   in a little gauntlet over here.

00:08:10   So instead of simplifying your workflow,

00:08:12   these tools just make everything more complicated.

00:08:15   That is, unless you're in Notion.

00:08:19   Notion combines your notes, your documents and projects

00:08:21   into one space that's simple and beautifully designed.

00:08:24   And you can save time and write faster

00:08:26   by letting Notion AI handle the first draft for you.

00:08:29   You can jumpstart a brainstorm or turn your messy notes

00:08:32   into something more polished.

00:08:34   You can even automate tedious tasks

00:08:36   like summarizing meeting notes or finding next steps.

00:08:39   Notion AI does all of this and more

00:08:41   while freeing you up to do the deep work.

00:08:43   My favorite thing to do in Notion AI,

00:08:45   I will write out like a blog post or email

00:08:49   that I want to send out and I ask Notion AI,

00:08:52   hey, can you, it's a very simple prompt.

00:08:53   I just say, can you improve the grammar, but keep my style?

00:08:57   And it goes, doodle-doodle-doo-dap-bop.

00:08:59   And then the whole thing,

00:09:00   I've got like an entire copy of my email

00:09:02   rewritten for me by Notion AI.

00:09:04   I can then go in and tweak what I want to,

00:09:06   but I get it tightened up and that's what I really like.

00:09:09   And I love that it's all there.

00:09:10   I don't have to go somewhere else.

00:09:12   It doesn't replace what I've written.

00:09:13   It just helps add to my work and help make it better.

00:09:17   - Does it make that noise?

00:09:18   Does it go dip-doo-doo-doo-dap?

00:09:19   - No, that's me.

00:09:20   I do that part.

00:09:22   - You do that when you run it.

00:09:22   - But Notion, if you want that sound, that's for you.

00:09:24   You're free to have that if you want that.

00:09:27   Notion can have that.

00:09:28   The fully integrated Notion AI helps you work faster,

00:09:31   write better and think bigger.

00:09:32   Doing tasks that normally take you hours

00:09:34   and just seconds.

00:09:35   Notion is used by over half of the Fortune 500 companies

00:09:39   and teams that use Notion,

00:09:41   they end up sending less email.

00:09:43   They cancel more meetings because they don't need them.

00:09:45   They save their time searching for their work simply.

00:09:47   They reduce spending on the many tools they may need.

00:09:50   This helps also keep everyone on the same page.

00:09:52   Notion really is an awesome tool.

00:09:55   Try it out for free by going to notion.com/upgrade.

00:09:59   That is N-O-T-I-O-N.com/upgrade to try the powerful,

00:10:02   easy to use Notion AI today.

00:10:05   And when you go there,

00:10:06   you're also helping support the show.

00:10:07   There's notion.com/upgrade.

00:10:10   Our thanks to Notion for their support of this show

00:10:12   and Relay FM.

00:10:13   All right, so, okay.

00:10:19   - Yeah.

00:10:21   - My plan for today's episode is we were gonna,

00:10:24   we were gonna like,

00:10:25   we were gonna do some Rumor Roundup stuff.

00:10:27   - Yep.

00:10:28   - We've been carrying some things over.

00:10:30   - B-Tails.

00:10:31   - Yeah, some B-Tails we could've done.

00:10:33   And then also I wanted to talk about the Vision Pro.

00:10:35   We are still gonna talk about the Vision Pro today

00:10:36   'cause we are just a few days away.

00:10:39   But then over the last,

00:10:41   over the last Thursday, I think it was.

00:10:43   - Yep, mm-hmm, big week.

00:10:45   - Apple published their response and their kind of plan

00:10:49   for how they were going to deal

00:10:51   with the European Union's Digital Markets Act, the DMA.

00:10:55   And inherently they have upended tons

00:11:00   of what the App Store and what iOS could be to,

00:11:05   they have proposed a series of upendings to this

00:11:10   for their plan for how they will work

00:11:12   within the European Union's new rules guidelines.

00:11:17   So I'm gonna give a disclaimer to this.

00:11:19   All of this stuff that we're about to talk about

00:11:21   is incredibly complicated.

00:11:23   We have both worked for hours to try and understand this

00:11:27   the best we can.

00:11:29   But it is going to take longer than today's episode

00:11:32   to fully comprehend it.

00:11:32   So I expect you will hear us say things today

00:11:36   that may be wrong or may be misunderstood.

00:11:40   I have already listened to many podcasts

00:11:42   with many of my favorite creators who are doing that too.

00:11:45   They're saying something and I'm like, I know that's wrong.

00:11:48   But this is just where we are right now

00:11:49   because the complication of this is kind of massive.

00:11:52   So what I am going to try and attempt to do here

00:11:55   is to go through the salient points

00:11:59   of Apple's response to the DMA

00:12:02   and then we're gonna talk about them.

00:12:03   And Jason, I'm just gonna read,

00:12:05   I'm gonna start reading this stuff.

00:12:06   You can jump in wherever you want.

00:12:08   But other than that, we're gonna have

00:12:09   like a big conversation about it at the end.

00:12:11   But I feel like we have to kind of try

00:12:12   and set the table for this because I also know

00:12:16   a lot of our listeners are interested in this

00:12:18   but don't want to spend the three hours reading it.

00:12:20   So that is like what we provide you today.

00:12:23   So Apple is making a series of changes to iOS

00:12:28   and the available terms for developers

00:12:30   who distribute their apps in Europe.

00:12:32   The changes to iOS, they're more simple.

00:12:35   So there'll be the introduction

00:12:37   of alternative app marketplaces.

00:12:40   These are other app stores, third party app stores

00:12:43   but Apple doesn't call them that.

00:12:45   I think because app stores is a term that Apple owns

00:12:47   and so they don't want, that's their intellectual property.

00:12:51   So they will be called alternative app marketplaces.

00:12:55   As a communicator of technology,

00:12:57   I like that it has a different name

00:12:58   because it's easier for me to shorthand it.

00:13:00   Effectively, what users can do, they can install them.

00:13:05   So you install them from the app store, I believe,

00:13:09   or from websites, I think.

00:13:11   - From websites.

00:13:12   - Right, from websites, you can install the marketplaces.

00:13:15   Then you can install apps from those marketplaces.

00:13:18   And even as a user, set one of them

00:13:20   as your default marketplace for applications.

00:13:24   - Yeah, it doesn't have to be, but you can.

00:13:27   - Yes, any apps downloaded from a marketplace

00:13:31   do not have things like screen time restrictions

00:13:34   applied to them, which I do think--

00:13:35   - Yeah, shared family things.

00:13:38   There are other like app store niceties.

00:13:40   - I mean, that stuff's obvious, right?

00:13:42   Like the stuff that the app store,

00:13:44   which by the way, Apple's talking about refunds.

00:13:46   Has anyone ever successfully just gotten a refund from it?

00:13:49   - Oh, it does happen.

00:13:50   - But it's really, I know it's possible,

00:13:52   but it's very hard to do, right?

00:13:53   There isn't like a process for getting refunds.

00:13:56   You have to like speak to Apple support

00:13:58   and then sometimes they'll help you.

00:13:59   Although actually in Europe, there is a different law,

00:14:01   but nevertheless.

00:14:02   - I think the most important thing about this,

00:14:05   this is there is a line in the DMA

00:14:08   that is that companies like Apple

00:14:11   that are found to be gatekeepers

00:14:15   have to allow sideloading or alternative marketplaces.

00:14:20   And Apple has taken the or and run with it.

00:14:23   And I gotta be honest, I hate this.

00:14:26   And I think this is why Apple's doing it.

00:14:29   So Apple could have fulfilled the DMA by saying,

00:14:33   okay, we're not gonna let anybody create their own app store,

00:14:36   but you can go through a process, which we'll talk about.

00:14:39   There is a process for apps to be outside of the app store,

00:14:42   but you just go to their website and you click

00:14:45   and you go through the process and you get the app.

00:14:47   And Apple has said, nope, we're not gonna do it that way.

00:14:50   And I understand Apple's perspective here being

00:14:53   by concentrating availability in alternative marketplaces,

00:14:58   there's a little more visibility, understanding,

00:15:00   and honestly, there's a company that has to be responsible

00:15:04   for posting that app instead of it just being willy nilly.

00:15:08   Some company with an alternative marketplace has to say,

00:15:11   yes, we are gonna put your app in our marketplace

00:15:16   that's not an app store.

00:15:17   Don't call it an app store.

00:15:18   But what it means essentially,

00:15:22   and so I think Apple is making a smart for Apple move

00:15:26   because Apple's goal here is to make it as unpleasant

00:15:29   as possible to get outside of Apple's restrictions.

00:15:34   We're gonna see this time and again,

00:15:35   but the no sideloading, 'cause it's not,

00:15:37   there's no sideloading.

00:15:39   There's alternate loading through someone else's store.

00:15:43   And we're gonna get into some of the details

00:15:45   of what you have to do to become a marketplace.

00:15:48   And in addition then, apps that would be

00:15:51   in that marketplace have to go through a whole other process.

00:15:54   So it's extra complicated and not like what it is on the Mac

00:15:58   and how they could have implemented it,

00:16:00   but have chosen not to, which is I'm a developer.

00:16:04   I wrote about this last week on six colors.

00:16:09   There's a great iTunes or it's music, sorry,

00:16:12   the music app for Mac.

00:16:13   There's a utility for it called Sleeve

00:16:15   that does like a little floating palette

00:16:17   of the currently playing album and it puts in shortcuts

00:16:20   and it does scrabbling and it does all these things.

00:16:22   It's a great little app.

00:16:23   And if you go to their website,

00:16:25   you'll see download on the Mac App Store

00:16:27   or just buy it from us.

00:16:29   And it's like, you can't do that with this.

00:16:30   You can't do that with this.

00:16:32   It could be downloaded on the App Store

00:16:33   or downloaded on XYZ store, sorry, 123 store,

00:16:38   but I mean, sorry, 123 Marketplace.

00:16:42   Let's get the terms right here.

00:16:42   - 123 Marketplace, yeah, get it right, Jason, please.

00:16:44   123 Marketplace.

00:16:46   But what they can't do is say, just get it from us.

00:16:48   You can't, even with this freedom in quotes that's happening,

00:16:52   you cannot sideload independently as a developer.

00:16:56   You have to go to some gatekeeper.

00:16:59   This is essentially what the way Apple has interpreted

00:17:03   the DMA and I think they've done it correctly

00:17:05   as far as I can tell for the words in the DMA,

00:17:08   not necessarily the intent, but the words in it

00:17:10   is the solution to having one gatekeeper

00:17:14   is to make more gatekeepers, which is,

00:17:19   if I was an independent developer or honestly as a user,

00:17:24   I hate it.

00:17:25   I understand why Apple's doing it, but it's like, oh good.

00:17:28   Alternate gatekeepers. - You can kind of see

00:17:30   a little bit though, right?

00:17:31   'Cause that breeds competition.

00:17:33   Competition may breed different rights

00:17:35   and that may help some companies, but it's not simple.

00:17:38   It's not the simple move,

00:17:39   but it is a move that could at least change

00:17:42   what there currently is,

00:17:44   where Apple sets 100% of the rules, right?

00:17:47   - Sure, no, I'm not saying it doesn't address issues.

00:17:52   I think what I'm saying is, you and I know enough developers

00:17:56   that we know that one of the issues is the existence

00:17:58   of a gatekeeper intermediating the relationship

00:18:01   between the developer and the user.

00:18:04   And the DMA as implemented by Apple here

00:18:07   to the letter of the law, I think, is essentially saying,

00:18:11   gatekeepers are not the problem.

00:18:13   In fact, they're still required.

00:18:15   I just think that's hilarious 'cause it's the first in,

00:18:19   I assure you in this segment, a long series of things

00:18:21   where everybody goes, oh, oh, and is disappointed.

00:18:26   - And I guess from the iOS/user side,

00:18:31   another part about apps from marketplaces is,

00:18:34   let's imagine you have the Spotify app from the App Store.

00:18:37   Spotify moved their app to a marketplace.

00:18:39   You can't just download the Spotify app

00:18:42   over the place of the existing Spotify app.

00:18:44   You have to remove your current Spotify app from your phone

00:18:48   and then download the new one.

00:18:50   I see why that's the case, right?

00:18:51   Like, well, that sounds annoying,

00:18:52   but I also kind of like, from a technological perspective,

00:18:55   understand why that might have to happen,

00:18:58   even though I think there's probably,

00:19:00   there could be ways around it, but they haven't got them.

00:19:01   Anyway. - Yeah.

00:19:03   - Staying on the, what is changing in iOS,

00:19:06   web browsers can use engines other than WebKit.

00:19:10   So you'll be able to have a web browser on the iPhone

00:19:13   that is Chromium, which I think used to be the case,

00:19:16   and then it changed at a certain point when--

00:19:19   - I don't know.

00:19:19   - Anyway, it doesn't matter.

00:19:22   And European users will be given an option

00:19:24   to choose a default browser for their iPhone

00:19:28   from a list of options on the first use.

00:19:31   - Yes, a randomized list of options, no less.

00:19:33   And there is a defined list of which browsers

00:19:37   will be shown in each country.

00:19:39   Yeah, actually differs country to country.

00:19:41   MacStories has that list,

00:19:42   if you're so inclined to want to know.

00:19:44   Apple will also use a new system to check

00:19:48   if you're in the European Union.

00:19:50   So you can use the marketplaces

00:19:54   and all this other stuff as a user.

00:19:56   It features a combination of checking the billing address

00:19:59   on your App Store account,

00:20:00   the current location that you're in,

00:20:02   the device, the region your device is set into,

00:20:05   and the class of device,

00:20:06   'cause all of this only applies to the iPhone,

00:20:09   the iPad, the Mac, everything else

00:20:11   does not get the app marketplace stuff.

00:20:16   And I guess one other thing,

00:20:16   which is I just think really feels like categorically good,

00:20:19   where everything else is a little murkier.

00:20:21   Worldwide now, Apple is going to be allowing

00:20:26   game streaming services to exist on the App Store,

00:20:29   which is fantastic.

00:20:30   - Right, but that's everywhere.

00:20:32   That's not just in the EU, it's everywhere.

00:20:35   So it's a different change that Apple is making.

00:20:38   - So no longer do they need to split the games

00:20:40   into individual apps, which Apple wanted them to do.

00:20:43   This is just a thing that will exist.

00:20:44   And so now Xbox Game Pass can have an app on the iPhone,

00:20:48   and that's that, which I'm excited about that hopeful future.

00:20:52   So that's the simple part, I think.

00:20:55   That's the simple part.

00:20:56   So that's like, if you are a user in the European Union,

00:20:59   these are the things that will become available for you

00:21:02   asterisk sometime in March, right?

00:21:04   So in 17.4, this kind of functionality

00:21:07   will become available for you.

00:21:09   If you are a developer,

00:21:11   this is where it gets significantly more complicated.

00:21:15   So everything that we're gonna talk about here

00:21:17   are part of new business terms that Apple has created.

00:21:20   And as a developer, you have the opportunity,

00:21:22   if you so want to, to opt into these new business terms.

00:21:27   You can stay with the current system,

00:21:29   if you want to, which we know,

00:21:30   we know everything about that system already,

00:21:32   but you can opt into these terms if you want to.

00:21:35   It changes the agreement,

00:21:37   it changes what is applicable to you.

00:21:38   But if you opt in, it's a one-time thing.

00:21:41   You cannot go back.

00:21:43   - And if you're asking yourself, why would they opt in?

00:21:46   Well, we're gonna get into the details.

00:21:48   It's required that they opt in

00:21:51   if they want to take advantage

00:21:53   of specific new EU-only features, right?

00:21:57   So you can't say, oh, here's a new freedom I have in the EU.

00:22:01   I want that, but I don't want to keep the old business terms.

00:22:04   That's not how it works.

00:22:05   You either are in sort of like plan A,

00:22:08   which is the way it's always been,

00:22:11   including all the rules, or at least most of the rules,

00:22:14   or plan B, which is all these new openings,

00:22:18   but you have to agree to these new terms as a developer.

00:22:22   - Yep.

00:22:22   Top line, new commission.

00:22:26   So what we consider as the 15 or 30%

00:22:30   that we've had for a long time now has changed.

00:22:34   It is either 10% for small developers, down from 15%,

00:22:38   or 17% for everybody else

00:22:40   if you're not in the small business program.

00:22:42   This also counts for digital goods and services.

00:22:45   These are at 17%.

00:22:46   This is the base commission.

00:22:48   If you use Apple's in-app payment system,

00:22:52   you pay an extra 3% on top of this,

00:22:55   making it 13% and 20%.

00:22:58   - Right. - Yep.

00:23:02   - So if you do the math here, by the way,

00:23:05   if you think of it as 13 and 20,

00:23:07   so let's assume that you're using Apple

00:23:10   for payment processing,

00:23:11   'cause you don't have to now.

00:23:13   Let's not get into that just yet,

00:23:15   because that will probably also be roughly 3%

00:23:18   if you go with someone else.

00:23:19   You'll be paying it to someone who isn't Apple,

00:23:21   but you're still paying it.

00:23:22   Okay, so the small business program

00:23:25   for companies that have less than a million dollars

00:23:28   in sales a year,

00:23:28   so indie developers and things like that,

00:23:31   are already 15%.

00:23:34   So this is not really much of a deal for them.

00:23:38   If you are a larger developer

00:23:40   and you're currently having Apple take 30%

00:23:43   of everything you do,

00:23:44   20%, including the credit card fee,

00:23:50   is a much better deal.

00:23:52   So on this one level, if you look at this,

00:23:55   you can see that this change is not much of an incentive

00:23:59   for a small developer, and there's more to come there,

00:24:02   but that it does provide a bit of a financial incentive

00:24:07   for some larger developers

00:24:10   who want to take more money away from Apple.

00:24:15   - And I wanna, this is something that,

00:24:17   we had this question in Discord just now,

00:24:19   and I've confirmed, I've struggled to get the exact answer

00:24:21   for this, but I think I understand it to be the case,

00:24:23   which is developers all around the world can opt into this,

00:24:28   but it just applies to your European Union-based business.

00:24:32   So you can be an American developer,

00:24:35   but then this will apply to the customers

00:24:38   and money made in the European Union.

00:24:41   Yeah, I just wanted to just double check that.

00:24:43   I thought that was the case,

00:24:44   but that was something which I struggled

00:24:46   to 100% confirm, so I'm happy that you read it

00:24:48   the same way.

00:24:49   So we mentioned payment systems.

00:24:51   As a developer, you are now able

00:24:53   to use your own payment system,

00:24:54   either in app or linking out to the web.

00:24:58   You are still expected to pay,

00:24:59   the aforementioned 10 or 17% commission to Apple,

00:25:02   if you remain in the app store.

00:25:05   This is no longer, there is no longer a requirement

00:25:07   to use Apple's in-app purchase if you opt to use your own.

00:25:11   - Right, you don't have to use Apple's system.

00:25:14   You can use your own credit card system.

00:25:16   - Yep.

00:25:17   - And if you're outside of the app store,

00:25:20   some different rules apply,

00:25:21   but this is even if you're in the app store,

00:25:23   you can use your own payment system.

00:25:25   You're still paying Apple this fee,

00:25:26   so why do you do it?

00:25:27   And the answer is you're not doing it to save money.

00:25:29   And this is an important point

00:25:30   because this comes up a lot when we're talking about this.

00:25:34   I believe because in part,

00:25:37   a lot of the developers that have been pushing for this

00:25:40   talk a lot about freedom and competition,

00:25:43   but what they really want is to make more money

00:25:45   by not paying Apple as much money.

00:25:48   And that's not the same.

00:25:50   And so this is a case where you have freedom

00:25:52   to use your own processor,

00:25:54   you're still gonna essentially be paying

00:25:55   the same amount of money, including a portion to Apple.

00:25:58   What it does give you is control of your credit card,

00:26:03   customer credit card data,

00:26:04   which means that you could then, they're your customer.

00:26:07   You could email them, you could track them,

00:26:10   you could sell their information, you could do whatever,

00:26:13   I mean, is allowed under the rules,

00:26:15   but like you would own that transaction

00:26:17   in a way that you don't when it goes through Apple.

00:26:19   So there still might be a reason to do it,

00:26:22   but it won't be in this one scenario

00:26:25   where you're in the app store

00:26:26   and you're using your own payment system,

00:26:28   it's not actually going to save you money.

00:26:30   - But there are things about control and data and information

00:26:35   that could be attractive to a business to do it this way.

00:26:38   - Could be.

00:26:40   - If you are in an app marketplace,

00:26:42   those commissions, the 10 and 17%,

00:26:46   you don't have to pay them.

00:26:48   So if you are not in the app,

00:26:50   these commissions, the 10 and 17 plus the payment 3%,

00:26:54   these are only applicable if you as a developer

00:26:56   choose to remain in the app store.

00:26:59   If you decide you wanna go out to an app marketplace,

00:27:01   you are free of the commission,

00:27:03   there is no more commission for you.

00:27:05   - From Apple. - You pay, yeah, from Apple.

00:27:08   You obviously, you're doing whatever deals you're doing.

00:27:10   - Because I'm gonna guess that

00:27:11   anyone who's running an app marketplace

00:27:13   is probably gonna want their cut too.

00:27:16   - Yes, but we don't, look, we can assume this is the case,

00:27:20   but these cuts could be much fairer,

00:27:22   they could be different, there might not be any at all.

00:27:24   Like, you know, whatever,

00:27:25   'cause there could be reasons that some companies

00:27:28   wanna have a marketplace of their own

00:27:31   and they just need more apps in it

00:27:32   because you can't just have a marketplace of your own,

00:27:34   which we'll get to in a minute as well.

00:27:37   But the core technology fee,

00:27:38   I think this is the biggest part.

00:27:40   It is maybe the most confusing

00:27:42   and probably has the largest ramifications.

00:27:45   The core technology fee, in essence, is like a license.

00:27:51   - It's essentially a per active user license of apps.

00:27:55   It's, it is, and there's been a lot of confusion about like,

00:27:58   oh, it's per install, per update, all of these things.

00:28:02   But the way it works is it's per Apple ID and it's one,

00:28:06   and once it's one, that's it.

00:28:08   So essentially, if you have an app

00:28:09   and you update it or download it during a 12 month period,

00:28:14   you're essentially considered an active user,

00:28:17   but that's all they're really tracking

00:28:19   is that download or update for it.

00:28:23   And Apple is then saying, okay,

00:28:25   so now we know how many people

00:28:26   are active annual users of your app

00:28:30   and you will pay us half a Euro for each.

00:28:35   - Yep.

00:28:37   I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna explain it again,

00:28:39   because again, very complicated, right?

00:28:41   It is 50 cent fee for an individual.

00:28:46   The threshold is calculated on a rolling 12 month basis.

00:28:50   This is a fee for using iOS, essentially.

00:28:53   - Yeah, it's for being, for access to Apple's,

00:28:56   it's the same argument that they've been making all along,

00:28:58   which is it's access to Apple's platforms,

00:29:00   to its intellectual property,

00:29:02   to its developer tools and to its APIs.

00:29:04   They feel that they are entitled to a payment

00:29:09   that was previously embedded in the percentage

00:29:12   they took from the app store.

00:29:13   And now they're going to take it a different way,

00:29:17   which is by charging on active installs.

00:29:20   So for example, rough back of the envelope calculations,

00:29:23   if you're Spotify and you have maybe 40 million

00:29:27   iPhone users in the EU, something like that,

00:29:31   they would be paying Apple, not 20 million Euro,

00:29:35   but 19 and a half million,

00:29:37   because the first million is free.

00:29:39   After that though, it's 50 cents per user.

00:29:42   And that would be, even if they were a free user,

00:29:45   Spotify would still need to pay 50 cents a year

00:29:47   for that free user.

00:29:48   - Yep.

00:29:49   It is inclusive of new downloads,

00:29:51   it is inclusive of updates,

00:29:52   but it's tied to the individual, as Jason said, right?

00:29:56   The first million is included in your developer program fee.

00:30:00   So you pay Apple to be a developer,

00:30:03   as part of that payment,

00:30:04   they give you the first 1 million downloads.

00:30:07   That is whether you are in the app store

00:30:09   or in an app marketplace.

00:30:12   You only pay the core technology fee for over 1 million.

00:30:15   So 1 million and one.

00:30:17   And it's not like,

00:30:18   I remember the small business program,

00:30:21   basically once you got over a million dollars,

00:30:23   I think you kind of lost it.

00:30:24   It isn't that.

00:30:26   So if you get to a million and one, you pay for one.

00:30:29   You don't pay for a million and one.

00:30:31   The first million is included as your fee

00:30:35   for being a developer.

00:30:36   So you only pay for what's on top.

00:30:39   The way that Apple bills developers for this

00:30:42   is even more complicated.

00:30:44   It is billed monthly divided into 12ths.

00:30:48   I have, I felt like my brain was leaking out of my ears

00:30:52   trying to understand this part.

00:30:53   - The idea is you're not gonna get a bill.

00:30:57   So I said, Spotify is gonna get this bill

00:30:59   for 19 and a half million euros, right?

00:31:04   But they're not.

00:31:06   They're gonna get 12 bills for 1.6 million euros

00:31:11   every month.

00:31:13   That's how it's gonna work. - Well, but it could change.

00:31:14   If you get more users, you pay even, it goes up and down.

00:31:18   - Sure, sure.

00:31:19   Because it's a rolling 12 month install thing.

00:31:23   The idea there, I think this is reasonable.

00:31:25   The idea there is to smooth out this

00:31:27   and have it fairly accurately reflect

00:31:30   your 12 month moving basis user base.

00:31:34   So if you have a bunch of people install your app

00:31:36   and you go over a million,

00:31:37   and then half of them or a quarter of them delete it,

00:31:42   you're gonna come back down over time.

00:31:46   - And so there's obviously Apple has this stuff.

00:31:51   They have lots of stuff about this.

00:31:52   They have a graphic where they've created an app

00:31:55   and like shown how it would be billed.

00:31:57   So you can kind of look at that.

00:31:57   But they also built a calculator tool.

00:32:00   So you can go in and you can say what type of app you are,

00:32:03   if you're in or out of the store

00:32:04   and they have all the different options and permutations,

00:32:07   and you can plug in a bunch of information

00:32:09   and it will tell you how much money you'll owe Apple

00:32:12   over a yearly basis.

00:32:13   It will estimate that for you.

00:32:15   Some of these numbers get really high

00:32:17   and it becomes really hard to wrap your head around.

00:32:20   Apple state that less than 1% of developers

00:32:23   would have to pay the core technology fee

00:32:25   if they remained in the app store.

00:32:28   They also say that under the new business terms,

00:32:31   99% of developers would pay less or the same

00:32:35   of what they are currently paying to Apple.

00:32:38   The core technology fee applies to paid apps and free apps,

00:32:42   educational institutions, government agencies

00:32:45   and registered nonprofits do not pay the CTF.

00:32:49   It is for any other type of app though.

00:32:51   If you're a free app, you have no monetization,

00:32:53   you still pay the fee once you go over a million.

00:32:56   I think that is the explanation of the CTF

00:33:00   probably taken care of for a bit.

00:33:03   I wanna talk about it in more detail in a minute

00:33:05   if you're okay with that, Jason.

00:33:07   - Sure.

00:33:08   - So alternate app marketplaces,

00:33:11   they all need to be approved by Apple

00:33:12   before they can be created.

00:33:15   They require a 1 million Euro letter of credit

00:33:18   to make sure that they can pay fees to Apple.

00:33:21   This is not as big as it seems.

00:33:23   You can get a letter of credit for a smaller fee from a bank

00:33:27   is essentially showing your solvency as a company

00:33:30   because you're gonna have to pay Apple money.

00:33:33   You cannot create an alternative app marketplace

00:33:37   as a developer to only distribute your own applications.

00:33:41   It must be set up as a store that accepts submissions.

00:33:45   You can specialize to a subject area.

00:33:47   So Epic have already announced they're gonna be bringing

00:33:51   the Epic Games Store to iOS in Europe

00:33:54   because the Epic Games Store is a game store.

00:33:57   People apply to be in the Epic Games Store.

00:33:59   It's not just Epic's apps.

00:34:01   So that is an example of how that would work.

00:34:03   But like Facebook couldn't create a alternate app

00:34:07   marketplace to put Instagram, Facebook

00:34:09   and threads inside of, they can't do that.

00:34:12   - Right, they could create,

00:34:13   in fact, I was thinking about this.

00:34:14   I don't think Facebook's gonna wanna do this

00:34:16   unless there, we may see some shenanigans where there's like,

00:34:19   we're gonna set up a company

00:34:20   or we're gonna work with a company

00:34:22   that is going to be owned by or partially owned by Facebook

00:34:25   that's gonna be an app marketplace.

00:34:27   There are ways that they could do it.

00:34:28   But I was thinking about this,

00:34:29   that if you're Facebook, probably what you wanna do is not,

00:34:32   you don't need necessarily your apps

00:34:34   to be in that marketplace,

00:34:36   but I could see it being like a games marketplace

00:34:40   that is run by Facebook or a Facebook proxy

00:34:44   so that they can get basically people to,

00:34:47   to get back to directly click on a link in a Facebook ad

00:34:51   and go and get it from that marketplace, right?

00:34:54   I could see a scenario there.

00:34:56   Complicated though, 'cause we don't know what Apple will do

00:34:58   and what will be allowed and it's,

00:35:00   and there's more to this 'cause then you add in

00:35:02   how many free app installs does Facebook have

00:35:05   and that means that they're now paying

00:35:07   for a thing that previously they didn't pay Apple for

00:35:10   and that's part of the overall thing, but we'll get to it.

00:35:12   - There isn't an app review, but there is notarization.

00:35:17   So if you want to submit your application

00:35:22   to the Epic Games Store,

00:35:24   which will be an alternate app marketplace,

00:35:26   it still has to be submitted for notarization.

00:35:30   - Yeah, so let me explain what notarization is

00:35:33   'cause it happens on the Mac,

00:35:35   but it's gonna be different for this process,

00:35:37   but it's based on the Mac.

00:35:38   It's what we said all along,

00:35:40   which is Apple has been testing this technology on the Mac

00:35:43   and it's clear that they will use that

00:35:45   when they have to do something like this.

00:35:46   So you submit your app to Apple.

00:35:49   Yes, even though it's not gonna go in the app store,

00:35:51   you submit your app to Apple.

00:35:53   This happens now with Macs that are not in the Mac app store

00:35:56   or Mac apps that are not in the Mac app store.

00:35:58   You submit the app to Apple.

00:36:00   On the Mac, you don't have to do this,

00:36:01   but it makes it way easier for everybody if you do.

00:36:04   What Apple does is they have an automated scan

00:36:07   and then they cryptographically sign it,

00:36:09   which helps in terms of your security

00:36:13   because it means that if the app is then modified later,

00:36:15   it doesn't match the signature and the system can say,

00:36:17   whoa, something happened to this app.

00:36:19   So you get, as a developer,

00:36:21   some reassurance that the system is making sure

00:36:24   your app isn't monkeyed with after the fact

00:36:26   for some sort of nefarious purpose.

00:36:28   Great.

00:36:29   So with this version, what they're also doing

00:36:32   is they're gonna add some layers of review

00:36:33   because they want to make sure that,

00:36:35   again, that the app is not malicious.

00:36:37   They're barred by the DMA from making kind of judgment calls

00:36:41   about the kinds of app they want on the platform,

00:36:44   but they can have some authority

00:36:46   in terms of misrepresentation or danger to the user.

00:36:51   So they're gonna add basically app review.

00:36:53   A human version of the scan that is incredibly limited,

00:36:58   but still a review that happens.

00:37:01   And on top of that, another interesting thing

00:37:03   is you're thinking, oh, well, notarization,

00:37:04   it's not in the App Store.

00:37:06   The developer who is submitting to notarization

00:37:10   actually supplies description, screenshots,

00:37:15   all the kinds of things you would expect

00:37:16   would be App Store metadata.

00:37:19   And the reason for that is that'll all get consumed by Apple

00:37:22   and wrapped and signed and then kicked back to the developer

00:37:25   to put in the marketplace.

00:37:27   But what it means is that when you're in the marketplace,

00:37:30   no matter what the marketplace says about that app,

00:37:33   when you tap to install it,

00:37:36   you see what the description was that was submitted to Apple.

00:37:41   And this is important because Apple is envisioning a scenario

00:37:45   where somebody misrepresents what their app does

00:37:48   in the marketplace,

00:37:49   and it actually does something very different.

00:37:52   And in this scenario, what happens is

00:37:54   they have to represent what it does to Apple,

00:37:57   and it has to match what the app is.

00:37:59   And if it doesn't match, Apple can say,

00:38:01   no, this is misleading, nefarious, whatever, and block it,

00:38:04   even though it's not an App Store app.

00:38:06   And that data rides along.

00:38:08   So even if somebody were to lie

00:38:10   on their marketplace description about what the app was,

00:38:13   when you tap, you're gonna see what they told Apple.

00:38:17   And that supposedly will give you greater confidence

00:38:20   and safety that this app is what they say it is.

00:38:23   But what it does mean is that App Store metadata essentially

00:38:26   is gonna ride along with the app,

00:38:28   even if it's not in the App Store.

00:38:30   - I have lots of thoughts, concerns,

00:38:34   questions about lots of things here.

00:38:37   I think this is maybe the thing

00:38:38   that makes the most sense to me.

00:38:40   Because I would not expect that

00:38:44   if you are a good faith developer,

00:38:45   that you would be rejected from this process.

00:38:48   I think that the eyes of the regulator are on them.

00:38:51   The language in the regulation is clear

00:38:54   that they cannot kind of pick and choose what they want.

00:38:57   It's only for bugs, safety, malware,

00:39:02   it's trying to steal your information.

00:39:06   It's like literally there is a very limited remit

00:39:09   of what Apple can scan.

00:39:10   And I would also say we had what, six years, seven years

00:39:15   of notarization on the Mac App Store.

00:39:17   And a lot of people are on the Mac,

00:39:19   not even the Mac App Store, on the Mac.

00:39:21   And a lot of people at the time were like,

00:39:22   "Oh, here we go, Apple's gonna take."

00:39:24   The fact is Apple's notarization, and it's not the same

00:39:27   as it is gonna be on iOS and the EU,

00:39:29   but Apple has not used that

00:39:33   as a de facto App Store rejection system.

00:39:36   And I don't expect them to do it here.

00:39:38   If you submit a porn app or an emulator

00:39:43   or any other category of thing that Apple says,

00:39:45   "No, we're not gonna let you do this,"

00:39:48   they can't turn you away if you aren't buggy,

00:39:54   causing harm, containing malware,

00:39:56   misrepresenting who you are, right?

00:39:58   They're not allowed to do that.

00:40:00   And so theoretically, they will just pass those apps through.

00:40:04   - I heard something today

00:40:07   that they're still enforcing app tracking transparency.

00:40:11   - Yes. - Which I find

00:40:12   to be very frustrating.

00:40:14   But it's part of what Apple considers to be security, so.

00:40:17   - Right. - So be it.

00:40:18   - And it's an API.

00:40:19   I mean, it's an API, so they're basically saying,

00:40:21   you need to ask.

00:40:22   And that's how they've done it up to now, right?

00:40:24   Which is you need to ask, and then people say no,

00:40:25   and then they don't get to track.

00:40:26   And they're using that API

00:40:29   because they're still running on iOS, right?

00:40:31   So that's a place where Apple can enforce.

00:40:34   Like, Apple has looked very clearly, they have mapped out.

00:40:36   There's a whiteboard somewhere inside Cupertino

00:40:38   where they have very cleverly mapped out

00:40:42   what they're allowed to do

00:40:43   and what they're not allowed to do

00:40:44   and placed certain features inside or outside that area.

00:40:49   - With this notarization,

00:40:53   it also gives Apple malware protections.

00:40:55   I assume that these two things are linked together

00:40:57   because by doing this, you are giving,

00:40:59   like, Apple is kind of like granting you

00:41:01   the ability to run on iOS,

00:41:03   which means there is some kind of link

00:41:04   that the system is aware of the app as it's running.

00:41:07   So for example, if an app became malware,

00:41:10   Apple can shut it down, even if it's not in the app store.

00:41:13   This is the case on the Mac right now.

00:41:14   If you download an app, a notarized app,

00:41:18   from an unknown source on macOS

00:41:22   and Apple has identified it as containing malware,

00:41:27   it will not run it.

00:41:30   And in fact, even if it's not notarized,

00:41:33   Apple has a kill switch,

00:41:34   but they also will do things

00:41:35   like they can kill the developer account

00:41:37   'cause the developer account associated with the signed app

00:41:40   is known by Apple.

00:41:41   So Apple can also say that developer is shut down

00:41:43   and all their apps will then not work on macOS.

00:41:48   So they have a big hammer that they can slam down.

00:41:52   But again, it has to be in the name

00:41:54   of an actual security threat.

00:41:57   - 'Cause we've seen this before on the Mac,

00:41:58   that one of the classic ones,

00:41:59   there was a, I think it was a BitTorrent app

00:42:01   called Transmission,

00:42:02   and there was a server hack for them

00:42:06   where malware was put into the application

00:42:09   and it was not known by the developer,

00:42:11   but because it had been notarized,

00:42:12   Apple was able to shut it down.

00:42:13   So when people tried to open the application,

00:42:16   where it would probably try and install malware

00:42:17   on their Mac, it wouldn't open.

00:42:19   And like, so that's the benefit of having this.

00:42:22   So it gives them that. - That's the idea.

00:42:24   That's the idea.

00:42:25   So I get people being uncomfortable with the idea

00:42:27   that it makes, the system that makes Apple

00:42:30   no longer a gatekeeper

00:42:31   immediately reinstalls Apple as a gatekeeper.

00:42:34   I totally get the optics of that,

00:42:37   but even written into the DMA,

00:42:40   it's saying, look, we're not saying that platform owners

00:42:45   don't have the authority to shut down things

00:42:47   for security, privacy, safety reasons.

00:42:52   And I think that's sensible, right?

00:42:54   This is not quite the wild West here.

00:42:58   Apple has some authority to protect its users

00:43:02   on its platform, but it doesn't have the level of power

00:43:06   in this scenario that it does on the App Store.

00:43:09   - They don't get to make decisions about content,

00:43:11   which I think is like,

00:43:13   or like what types of businesses can run.

00:43:15   - Yeah, we don't like this app because,

00:43:17   and we've seen so many App Store rejections

00:43:18   that are also things like,

00:43:19   we just don't like this app

00:43:20   because it doesn't do anything we think is valuable.

00:43:23   - There's not enough features.

00:43:25   - Yeah, it's the old no fart app rule

00:43:27   that has been extended to all sorts of apps

00:43:29   that are actually useful.

00:43:31   Plus it's things like, we don't want emulators.

00:43:33   We don't want, you know, we don't want pornography.

00:43:36   We don't want, I mean, there are classes of apps

00:43:38   that they're just like, like if somebody wrote

00:43:40   a really great iOS, and sadly not on the iPad

00:43:43   'cause it's not covered here,

00:43:45   emulator for Mac OS, let's say.

00:43:49   Apple's gonna go, nope, uh-uh, no,

00:43:52   we're not gonna let that in there.

00:43:53   But that's not, they can't reject that

00:43:58   under these agreements.

00:43:59   They would have to let it go, just like they do on the Mac.

00:44:02   There's all sorts of weird Mac apps that they notarize

00:44:06   because that's not what it's there for.

00:44:09   - All right, final few things, and then we can talk about,

00:44:13   we can have more of a conversation about this.

00:44:15   So developers have access to using the NFC chip

00:44:19   for banking or wallet apps,

00:44:20   so you don't have to go through Apple Pay

00:44:22   if you don't want to,

00:44:24   so Apple doesn't take their cut from your transaction.

00:44:26   There are some, I think the most nebulous thing

00:44:29   out of all of this is the creation

00:44:31   of what is called an interoperability request,

00:44:33   where a developer can submit a request to Apple

00:44:36   to ask for access to other iPhone hardware or OS features.

00:44:40   I expect this email address just goes straight

00:44:42   into a trash can, and you can also enable,

00:44:47   and to enable all of this functionality,

00:44:48   so everything we've spoken about here today,

00:44:50   there are over 600 new APIs available for developers,

00:44:55   which includes, as you would imagine,

00:44:56   lots of new warning screens that Apple has designed

00:45:00   if a customer wants to choose to use any other system

00:45:02   in the Apple Zone, payments, marketplaces, stuff like that.

00:45:05   Shout out to Mark Gurman here.

00:45:07   13 months ago, in December of '22,

00:45:13   he reported that Apple's OS group was gearing up

00:45:16   to do a major update to iOS that would address the DMA,

00:45:21   and we see now with over 600 new APIs,

00:45:23   this is what he was talking about, and it's funny,

00:45:27   I would argue this might be the biggest unannounced

00:45:31   iOS feature rolled out in a dot release ever.

00:45:36   Because this was, 'cause I had somebody ask me,

00:45:39   what does this mean about the next version of iOS?

00:45:41   Is it gonna be scant because they had to build

00:45:44   all this stuff for the EU?

00:45:45   And my response was, no, no, no,

00:45:47   this was always part of last year's iOS development cycle.

00:45:52   They knew they didn't have to ship it until March,

00:45:55   'cause that was their deadline,

00:45:56   but based on Gurman's reports,

00:45:59   and based on the scope of this,

00:46:01   clearly last year's iOS development cycle

00:46:05   included all of this planning and work, because it's huge,

00:46:11   and there was no way they were gonna do

00:46:13   sort of just a late cycle kick in

00:46:15   to get it to work with the DMA.

00:46:17   It's a much more expansive set of features.

00:46:20   It is, in fact, and I think Apple knows this,

00:46:23   there will be other places where things like this

00:46:25   will be necessary, and so they might as well build it

00:46:27   into the operating system and in their mind, do it right.

00:46:31   Not have it be a hack, but have it be like,

00:46:34   no, there's a whole API for marketplace apps,

00:46:36   and here's how it works.

00:46:37   There's a whole API for apps that are outside the app store

00:46:40   and a whole system for submitting them,

00:46:42   and here's how that all works.

00:46:43   And they've built it now.

00:46:45   The rules may change, the laws may change.

00:46:47   In fact, if some country said,

00:46:50   you just have to allow sideloading,

00:46:52   I think all those APIs are in there.

00:46:54   I think you could do that in a different country.

00:46:56   If Korea, if South Korea said,

00:46:59   just turn on sideloading, it's the law now,

00:47:01   Apple has done that work,

00:47:03   even though it wouldn't behave exactly like

00:47:05   it's behaving theoretically in the EU with the marketplaces,

00:47:09   because they've done all this work,

00:47:10   work they didn't ever wanna do,

00:47:12   but now they have to do, and they've done it.

00:47:15   And I think that is also interesting,

00:47:16   because now that work is there.

00:47:18   - Yep, it's, you wouldn't do it,

00:47:22   you wouldn't do all this work,

00:47:23   and it only work in this one instance, right?

00:47:24   Like, well, you gotta hope, you really gotta hope.

00:47:28   That they put the, this is like the foundations are in place

00:47:32   for all types of things being split up into pieces,

00:47:35   or in all different types of regions.

00:47:37   All of this would go into effect in March,

00:47:42   provided that it meets what the EU want.

00:47:47   My understanding though,

00:47:49   is that they don't get told this beforehand,

00:47:54   and people are submitting their objections

00:47:59   to the European Commission right now

00:48:01   about what Apple has put out there.

00:48:04   So while this may all look very final,

00:48:06   it is actually Apple's proposals

00:48:09   for how they would comply with the Demarcus Act.

00:48:12   - And I, if there was one piece of writing about this

00:48:14   that I think is the perfect sort of chef's kiss,

00:48:17   it is, John Gruber wrote a very, very,

00:48:20   very long piece about this.

00:48:23   I know for a fact he talked to a lot of people

00:48:25   inside Apple about this, to get their perspective on it.

00:48:28   But the last section of Gruber's thing is so good,

00:48:31   because basically what he says is, well, look here,

00:48:34   just as developers over the years

00:48:37   have submitted their apps to Apple,

00:48:39   and hoped that they would be approved

00:48:42   by a somewhat untrustworthy, capricious,

00:48:45   you just never can tell with those guys

00:48:47   what's gonna happen.

00:48:48   Now Apple has effectively submitted their work

00:48:52   to the EU and the European Commission,

00:48:55   and said, what do you think, sirs?

00:48:57   And they are in the same boat, right?

00:49:01   Which is, they might get rejected, right?

00:49:04   Just like a developer gets rejected.

00:49:05   And that is a very funny,

00:49:08   and I think trenchant observation by Mr. Gruber.

00:49:12   - Yep.

00:49:13   So, how do you,

00:49:20   is it too big a question to ask how do you feel about this?

00:49:23   - Feels, let's talk about the feels.

00:49:25   I'm surprised by some of it.

00:49:30   - Yeah.

00:49:31   - I sort of thought that they would go with the approach

00:49:36   that they've done elsewhere, where they've said,

00:49:40   okay, you can use your own thing, but you still owe us 30%.

00:49:45   And it must be that they're reading of the DMA

00:49:47   that they can't do that.

00:49:48   - I think they know they can't get away with it,

00:49:49   otherwise they wouldn't have done this.

00:49:51   'Cause they've made it quite clear

00:49:53   what they think they should have

00:49:54   everywhere else in the world,

00:49:56   but this time they've changed that, right?

00:49:58   The commission is different.

00:50:02   And for some people, as Apple have said, lower.

00:50:05   - Yeah, so I think that's interesting

00:50:08   that they have done more than I thought,

00:50:10   but what really has struck me in reading it

00:50:14   and thinking about it and writing about it

00:50:16   is that this is Apple, like I said before,

00:50:21   it's Apple very carefully mapping out

00:50:23   what they're required to do

00:50:25   and what they're not required to do.

00:50:27   Okay, so I need to back up and say,

00:50:29   we've talked about these issues

00:50:30   for the last couple of years here on the podcast.

00:50:32   And one of the things that I've said a few times,

00:50:34   I'm gonna repeat now,

00:50:35   'cause I think it's super important,

00:50:37   which is there are regulators and governments

00:50:41   that are comfortable regulating specific kinds of behaviors,

00:50:46   but are much less comfortable telling a company

00:50:51   essentially that their product

00:50:54   doesn't belong to them anymore,

00:50:56   that their method of making money,

00:51:00   their internal business costs and calculations

00:51:04   that are going to be seized essentially

00:51:08   and taken control of by the regulator of government.

00:51:10   And I say this because Apple structures a lot of this stuff,

00:51:14   including everything they've done here.

00:51:16   I mean, if I wanna be incendiary,

00:51:19   I can say they're daring them to do this,

00:51:21   but I think also Apple has this feeling

00:51:25   like there is a limit beyond which the regulators

00:51:27   won't step with a company.

00:51:29   So what you see here is Apple has built these structures

00:51:34   essentially to make it so unpalatable

00:51:38   that nobody will want to do them

00:51:41   and or that very, very few people,

00:51:43   very few companies will want to participate.

00:51:45   And that core technology fee is a really great example

00:51:48   of a poison pill, because I thought immediately,

00:51:52   well, Facebook will clearly do this

00:51:54   and Epic will clearly do this.

00:51:57   And what will happen with Spotify

00:51:59   and how are they gonna handle this?

00:52:01   But charging 50 cents for every free install

00:52:05   is a shot across the bow of the model most cultivated

00:52:08   by the App Store economics, which is the freemium model.

00:52:11   Get our thing, use it for free,

00:52:13   we'll make money somewhere else or we'll upcharge you later.

00:52:16   And so like if you're Facebook,

00:52:19   you gotta be confident that going outside

00:52:22   or using your own payment processor

00:52:23   so you can do more tracking or whatever,

00:52:26   you gotta be really confident that that's worth it

00:52:30   because your business is run on free apps

00:52:33   that will now be charged by Apple

00:52:35   at a rate of 50 cents per year.

00:52:38   - Which that amount of money,

00:52:40   so okay, huge amount of money it can become, right?

00:52:43   50 cents a year for per customer

00:52:48   is not a large amount of money

00:52:51   if you have a decent business model, right?

00:52:53   Like if you have a business model that is working for you.

00:52:56   - But the challenge for Facebook is,

00:52:57   there's a part of Facebook that's like,

00:52:59   oh man, wouldn't it be great if we could just put those web,

00:53:01   like in the old days,

00:53:02   put those web links in Facebook to app sales

00:53:05   and then we follow them and we can charge them

00:53:08   'cause it's our marketplace

00:53:09   and like all of these things about it.

00:53:12   I'm sure there's a group in Facebook that's like,

00:53:14   yeah, let's do that.

00:53:14   But my question is,

00:53:16   what revenue does that generate in the EU?

00:53:20   And does it, 'cause it's not 50 cents per user

00:53:21   who is buying those apps,

00:53:24   it's 50 cents per every user of Facebook

00:53:27   and every user of Instagram

00:53:29   and every user of WhatsApp, right?

00:53:31   And every user of Messenger.

00:53:34   It is everybody, it's 50 cents.

00:53:38   And those are big apps that are used by lots of people.

00:53:42   So the price tag is gonna be big.

00:53:44   Can Facebook afford it?

00:53:45   Of course it can.

00:53:46   But my question is,

00:53:48   you better be able to offset that.

00:53:51   Otherwise you're better off just staying

00:53:53   with the current terms.

00:53:54   - We know Facebook can though, right?

00:53:57   We know how much money they make.

00:53:59   We know they can afford that.

00:54:01   - But that's not my point.

00:54:03   Not my point.

00:54:04   So you're Facebook and you're given two choices.

00:54:07   Choice A is stay with the status quo.

00:54:10   Choice B is spend 30 million euros a year on free apps

00:54:15   in exchange for what you get out of it,

00:54:21   which is some reduced terms for payments,

00:54:23   which you're not really taking,

00:54:25   and some enhanced ability,

00:54:27   but not as much as you'd think to track

00:54:29   in terms of web clicks and credit card transactions

00:54:34   and the like.

00:54:35   And my argument would be,

00:54:37   the group of people that's into that stuff in Facebook

00:54:39   is gonna be like, yeah, yeah, yeah, let's do it.

00:54:41   Let's do it.

00:54:42   But if I'm running Facebook

00:54:43   and I'm looking at the whatever it is,

00:54:45   40 million, 50 million, whatever that fee is,

00:54:50   I have to be confident that by making this move,

00:54:53   I'm gonna make that money back and then some.

00:54:57   And if I can't, why would I do it?

00:55:00   Why would I do it?

00:55:01   Right?

00:55:02   Like, 'cause then I'm losing money to make,

00:55:04   I'm making a move to make less money.

00:55:06   That is bad business, right?

00:55:09   And that's the poison pill here for a lot of people.

00:55:11   Also, anybody who's an indie developer, right?

00:55:13   First off, the terms aren't as good.

00:55:15   So your terms will improve by a couple of percentage points.

00:55:19   It's not really much of anything.

00:55:20   And you risk any of your free apps.

00:55:22   And let's face it,

00:55:23   most indie developers have a freemium model

00:55:25   because the app store really pushes you

00:55:28   to have that freemium model.

00:55:29   Suddenly, our friend James Thompson just told us

00:55:32   in the Discord, like even a little, sorry, James,

00:55:35   little app like Peacock Lite

00:55:37   is over the threshold in the EU.

00:55:40   So he would be on the hook for a large amount of money

00:55:43   from his free app that is, because it's a free app,

00:55:46   not generating revenue.

00:55:49   So like that's the poison pill at the center of this,

00:55:51   I think.

00:55:52   - I feel like a company,

00:55:57   we'll just keep using Meta as the example here, right?

00:56:00   I could imagine a scenario where

00:56:04   if this becomes the worldwide model,

00:56:07   which I think we both assume it could, right?

00:56:10   That like governments in America, governments in the UK,

00:56:14   governments all over, you know,

00:56:15   governments in Japan might look at this and say,

00:56:18   that's the model, thank you Europe.

00:56:20   - And Apple's already built it.

00:56:21   - Yeah, because it's done.

00:56:22   - Apple's already built it.

00:56:23   So Apple can't say, oh no, that's gonna be onerous for us.

00:56:26   They built it, it's done.

00:56:27   - It's done.

00:56:28   So this is like the easy way to say we've regulated Apple,

00:56:31   da da da da da.

00:56:32   If this became the model in say 60, 70%

00:56:37   of where Facebook has its customers,

00:56:40   I could imagine a scenario in which they are willing

00:56:44   to lose or pay the fee to have a bit more control.

00:56:49   - Yeah, it comes down to the details.

00:56:53   Like I don't know what happens when you tap

00:56:55   on an app download ad in Facebook in this model

00:57:00   and you go to a webpage and they track you,

00:57:03   like does Apple do some anti-tracking?

00:57:05   Like I don't know some of the details

00:57:07   that probably won't be known until this gets launched

00:57:12   in your Facebook and you're trying to figure it out.

00:57:14   Like I wouldn't, do we think Apple's not trying

00:57:18   to make that as hard as possible for Facebook to do

00:57:21   on top of everything else?

00:57:23   But let's say you could get the leverage,

00:57:25   let's say you could get value in it,

00:57:28   then that's your business decision, right?

00:57:29   Is it worth it for me to pay 50 cents for every parent

00:57:34   and grandma that's using Facebook to look at pictures

00:57:39   of cats in order to be able to monetize somewhat differently

00:57:43   with this one part of my business?

00:57:45   That's the question.

00:57:46   I'm not saying it's not.

00:57:47   I'm just saying it's not as obvious as you would think.

00:57:51   - And maybe even like a better, like a different example,

00:57:54   like a very interesting example is Epic, right?

00:57:56   They have the Epic Games Store.

00:57:58   They have, I don't remember what it is,

00:58:00   but I know that their fee on other platforms

00:58:03   is smaller than what Apple's cut is.

00:58:05   I think it might be similar now

00:58:06   because of this reduced thing.

00:58:09   But that is a business where there is sense to be made

00:58:13   for having your own app store, right?

00:58:15   Because it is tailored.

00:58:18   - I think an app store with a product

00:58:20   that is generating a lot of money is,

00:58:25   or sorry, an app marketplace.

00:58:26   - A marketplace where the inherently

00:58:28   all of the apps within that marketplace

00:58:31   are expected to be paid, which is video games.

00:58:34   Or they have a very lucrative freemium model.

00:58:39   - Yes, and that's it.

00:58:40   You know, like Epic knows how many people play Fortnite

00:58:45   or whatever and don't pay versus pay.

00:58:49   What's the average?

00:58:50   And it's ARPU, right?

00:58:51   Average revenue per user is the term there.

00:58:53   And if your ARPU is above whatever that breakeven is,

00:58:56   whether it's like above 50 cents or a dollar or whatever,

00:59:01   then it starts to be worth it, right, to do that.

00:59:03   And I think that high generating apps like games

00:59:08   are the scenario that is the most likely for this.

00:59:11   Now it is irrevocable and it means

00:59:13   that you're gonna be paying Apple that

00:59:14   regardless of whether you're in the app store or not.

00:59:17   But I can see how being,

00:59:20   how somebody like Epic could construct a place

00:59:22   where gamers in the EU know, like there are good games

00:59:26   and they will install the marketplace

00:59:31   because there are good games there.

00:59:35   And those games are generating enough revenue

00:59:38   that it's worth paying the tax to Apple on the downloads,

00:59:43   on the active users.

00:59:44   It's not even downloads, it is.

00:59:45   So like if you get Fortnite and you delete it,

00:59:48   you will fall off, but you will no longer be counted.

00:59:54   So there's that too.

00:59:54   Yeah, I think it's quite possible that games is the place

00:59:58   where you might see this scenario.

00:59:59   - It's the easiest one, it's the easiest one, right?

01:00:02   Because you should as a game developer

01:00:06   be making 50 cents per year.

01:00:09   - Right, you should not be able,

01:00:10   and if you're not, you need to rethink your model, right?

01:00:12   This is the whole, like I've been playing like Marvel Snap

01:00:15   for more than a year and I did finally buy something in it.

01:00:18   After more than a year, I paid $5 for something.

01:00:22   And I thought, well, they've now gotten $5 out of me

01:00:25   in 14 months, is it worth it for them?

01:00:28   I don't know, I have that thought, which is I'm not sure

01:00:32   because I was able to, like as a user,

01:00:35   I'm very happy to not have to pay to play that game.

01:00:39   But thinking about the business, I thought,

01:00:43   maybe it's a little too easy to play this game for free.

01:00:46   But the business is no, and the game companies

01:00:48   are very good at monitoring and doing the mechanics

01:00:51   and knowing what the ARPU is.

01:00:53   And that's the figure here is average revenue per user.

01:00:57   And if you can say, and you just do the math,

01:00:59   like, okay, we'll throw in Apple's tax,

01:01:01   but we get this back and we control this

01:01:04   and we're gonna, and Epic is gonna take this cut,

01:01:08   which is smaller, and then we're left with,

01:01:10   let's run the numbers.

01:01:11   And the answer is, oh, it's worth it for us to do it

01:01:14   and they'll do it.

01:01:15   And I can see that scenario, but what we're not gonna see,

01:01:17   I think, is this incredible flourishing of marketplaces,

01:01:20   let a thousand marketplaces bloom.

01:01:22   I don't think that's gonna happen.

01:01:23   And even stuff that I thought on Thursday

01:01:26   was more likely to happen,

01:01:28   like Alt Store said they're gonna go there.

01:01:30   And it's like, okay, fine, Alt Store, fine.

01:01:32   That's an existing sort of outside the App Store,

01:01:36   gray market, the kind of marketplace.

01:01:39   But like, I thought SetApp would be a good example of this.

01:01:42   But the problem is a lot of those SetApp apps

01:01:44   are utilities that are very useful

01:01:47   and that are also in the App Store,

01:01:49   because right now they have to be.

01:01:50   And presumably they would stay in the App Store,

01:01:53   but for them to be in the marketplace,

01:01:54   they have to opt into the new terms.

01:01:57   And will that make sense for them?

01:01:59   I don't know, right?

01:02:00   So it gives me pause for something

01:02:04   like a subscription service like SetApp to do it,

01:02:07   because all their partners have to opt into the new terms

01:02:12   and that might be economically unhelpful.

01:02:15   So there are just lots of questions here.

01:02:18   - But someone could make something else like that, right?

01:02:21   And in such, you model the business in a way

01:02:24   that you understand that the CTF exists

01:02:28   and that you kind of, for every user,

01:02:30   you have to generate 50 cents a year.

01:02:32   - It's just a different model.

01:02:33   And honestly, having an ARPU for a free app above 50 cents

01:02:38   is not hard.

01:02:39   - No.

01:02:40   - But in the App Store,

01:02:40   the way that Apple has had the App Store

01:02:43   for the last 15 years, you haven't had to do that, right?

01:02:46   Like this is Apple weaponizing the fact

01:02:49   that they've let free apps be completely free of charge

01:02:54   in the App Store.

01:02:55   Now they're saying basically like,

01:02:56   "All right, you want better terms,

01:02:57   "we'll give you better terms.

01:02:58   "You want more freedom, we'll give you more freedom."

01:03:00   But free apps aren't free anymore.

01:03:03   Bottom line, again-

01:03:05   - Because they weren't in the first place.

01:03:07   - Huge hit free apps aren't free anymore.

01:03:11   We should put it that way, right?

01:03:12   Because it is over a million.

01:03:13   So congratulations to James Thompson.

01:03:15   Pcalc Life is a huge hit.

01:03:17   It's over a million.

01:03:18   - You can see through all of this, right?

01:03:20   You see through all of this,

01:03:21   how much money Apple's making

01:03:23   from in-app purchases from games.

01:03:25   - Yes.

01:03:27   - That's what the CTF is.

01:03:28   - That's what this is all about.

01:03:30   That's why I get frustrated

01:03:31   when indie developers talk about this.

01:03:33   'Cause the truth is that if you look at Apple's policies,

01:03:36   everything resolves itself.

01:03:38   Why did they do the small business program

01:03:40   and cut the fees to 15%?

01:03:42   It was one, to get the heat off of them.

01:03:44   And two, they don't really care

01:03:46   about people who are making small amount,

01:03:48   under a million dollars a year in the app store.

01:03:50   They don't.

01:03:51   They just don't care.

01:03:52   There are a few huge game developers

01:03:56   who are selling digital goods.

01:03:58   It's what John Syracuse always calls what?

01:04:01   Casino games for children.

01:04:02   But it's not just children, it's also adults.

01:04:06   And it's buy more gems or buy more spins

01:04:10   or buy that beautiful set of Marvel snap art,

01:04:14   which is what I did.

01:04:16   And those few companies that are excellent

01:04:21   at monetizing all digital items in their apps,

01:04:25   obviously are the vast bulk of app store revenue.

01:04:30   Obviously.

01:04:32   And that's what Apple cares about is in the end,

01:04:35   Apple is trying to protect the money they get

01:04:38   from the big players in the game space.

01:04:42   That's it.

01:04:43   - When I read about the CTF,

01:04:45   I'm kind of like, I wished it was just this way always.

01:04:48   I wished it was this way from the beginning.

01:04:51   When I read about it,

01:04:52   I wished Apple had a fixed amount of money

01:04:55   they could make from a developer

01:04:57   over a million downloads in a year.

01:04:59   Then we would not have had all of the stuff

01:05:02   we have had around in-app purchases.

01:05:04   We would not have had all of this terrible monetization

01:05:06   in video games.

01:05:08   It would have saved so many bad things from happening,

01:05:11   like the thousands and thousands and thousands of people

01:05:14   getting laid off across the gaming industry

01:05:16   each year at the moment,

01:05:17   because games exploded with the freemium models

01:05:20   during the pandemic.

01:05:22   I wished there was just a flat fee and that was it.

01:05:26   And that people built their business models around that.

01:05:29   And if you're like, how could you say that, Mike?

01:05:31   I'm an idiot.

01:05:32   No, 'cause you wouldn't have built your business

01:05:33   the way you've built it.

01:05:35   To me, the idea that you run a business,

01:05:38   look, I have a very different business, right?

01:05:39   To me, the idea of running a business

01:05:42   and not being able to afford 50 cents per user,

01:05:45   like that is, you will run in on some odd margins

01:05:49   to the way that things seem simple to me, right?

01:05:51   - Right, but there's zero cost to it.

01:05:53   So I can sort of see like,

01:05:55   if your ARPU is below 50 cents,

01:06:00   but you are able to monetize,

01:06:03   like, again, I don't know,

01:06:06   you've got 5 million users

01:06:09   and the percentage of them who buy the upgrade

01:06:11   is relatively small,

01:06:13   but it doesn't have to be that big

01:06:15   for it to be material to you.

01:06:17   And it doesn't matter that your conversion rate is low.

01:06:20   And what the 50 cent charge is,

01:06:21   it matters if your conversion rate is low.

01:06:23   You can't run that business.

01:06:26   You can't have a deeply inefficient freemium app business

01:06:30   under this scenario.

01:06:31   You can't do it.

01:06:32   And I take your point, which is,

01:06:34   you're running a bad business

01:06:35   if you can't monetize your free app like that.

01:06:37   Like, I mean, it's true.

01:06:38   That's just the truth of it is.

01:06:39   The whole purpose, okay,

01:06:42   we should say there are free apps

01:06:45   that people just do for love.

01:06:47   - Probably they're under the million.

01:06:48   - And can't be monetized.

01:06:49   They're probably under the million,

01:06:51   or they are just under the old terms, right?

01:06:55   It doesn't matter.

01:06:56   They're completely free.

01:06:57   It doesn't matter.

01:06:58   But yeah, if you're trying to make money from a free app,

01:07:02   which means it's got an in-app purchase,

01:07:03   it's got an upgrade of some kind,

01:07:06   you should be able to convert.

01:07:08   Whatever you're charging,

01:07:09   you should be able to convert

01:07:11   probably at a level above 50 cents a download,

01:07:14   an active user.

01:07:15   You've got 5 million active users

01:07:18   and can't convert them at that level.

01:07:22   That's not great.

01:07:24   - It's weird. - It's not great.

01:07:25   - Like, on the face of it, it just seems strange to me.

01:07:28   It's like Spotify is saying they can't afford it.

01:07:30   And it's like, yeah, Spotify, you have a bad business,

01:07:33   model everyone already knows this.

01:07:36   Like, I don't think there's anything that Apple can do

01:07:39   for you that's gonna help your business model.

01:07:40   We all know that.

01:07:42   - If you've got 5 million active users

01:07:44   and you can't make $2 million a year on them,

01:07:47   there's something wrong.

01:07:49   - Yeah.

01:07:50   - 'Cause that's, right?

01:07:51   That's $2 for every five users.

01:07:54   - Yeah.

01:07:55   - So you're converting whatever that is, 40%.

01:07:58   And that's for a dollar, you're converting at 40%.

01:08:01   For $4, you're converting at 10%, right?

01:08:04   I like, again, I'm just doing the math in my head here,

01:08:07   but like, anyway, but what I will say, Mike,

01:08:09   is free ride on the App Store means nobody cares

01:08:14   what your conversion rate is, right?

01:08:15   They don't care.

01:08:16   It's like, oh, I just put it out for fun

01:08:18   and there's a tip jar and sometimes I get money for it.

01:08:21   - That's why I'm saying- - That's okay.

01:08:22   - I wish it started this way, right?

01:08:25   Like, I know why now this is hard.

01:08:27   I'm just saying I wished the 30% thing never existed.

01:08:31   - Right, because Apple has, I don't wanna say distorted,

01:08:35   but like the terms of the App Store have led the App Store

01:08:38   in this direction and one of the terms

01:08:41   from the moment Steve Jobs unveiled it was,

01:08:43   if it's free, it's free.

01:08:44   We don't charge you anything.

01:08:45   You can just be there.

01:08:46   We'll pay for your downloads and all those things

01:08:49   and your hosting, you don't have to worry about it.

01:08:51   Free apps are just free.

01:08:52   And that was from the beginning.

01:08:54   And one of the reasons they did that

01:08:56   is because there was this fear, I think,

01:08:58   that nobody would, if you tried to put an app up for free,

01:09:03   Apple can't charge you for it, really.

01:09:06   Like, that's really rough,

01:09:08   but they're not letting you out of the store.

01:09:10   And so they were like, okay, look,

01:09:12   we're gonna control everything,

01:09:14   but if you're not charging, we'll just let you ride.

01:09:16   And that's fine, but what happened with the,

01:09:18   and remember, Mike, at the beginning,

01:09:20   you couldn't be free with in-app purchases.

01:09:22   - I was just about to say that.

01:09:23   It's one of my favorite facts that I think

01:09:25   is hard to wrap your head around,

01:09:27   that when they introduced in-app purchases,

01:09:29   they were only for paid apps.

01:09:31   - Yes, free apps were not,

01:09:34   freemium was not there on day one,

01:09:35   free apps were there on day one.

01:09:37   And the premise originally for free apps was,

01:09:40   look, they're never gonna make any money for this thing.

01:09:42   It's just free.

01:09:43   Or it's happening somewhere else.

01:09:45   So it's just free.

01:09:46   But the moment that you could do free with in-app purchase,

01:09:49   everything was different about what a free app was

01:09:51   and how it was there.

01:09:52   And then everybody has followed it.

01:09:54   And I'm not saying it's a fundamentally wrong model.

01:09:57   It's proven to be incredibly successful as a model.

01:09:59   Try it for free and then pay.

01:10:01   And we have lots of friends

01:10:02   who have made very successful businesses

01:10:05   on the free with in-app purchase model.

01:10:08   Most, actually, I would say all the developers we know

01:10:11   who are successful have made money on this model.

01:10:14   But this is how it works.

01:10:15   'Cause this is how the App Store works now.

01:10:18   - Yeah, I see what you're saying there,

01:10:20   but I think there's like a slight,

01:10:22   there's a twist in that, right?

01:10:23   Which is just like, they follow the rule,

01:10:25   like how the App Store's supposed to work.

01:10:27   You know what I mean?

01:10:28   But like if the App Store was paid upfront,

01:10:30   they still could have been,

01:10:31   but it's a different reality to the one that we're in.

01:10:35   - That's absolutely true.

01:10:36   But yes, because of the way it's worked,

01:10:38   it has led lots of developers to work this way.

01:10:41   Like, we know lots of developers

01:10:45   who've had apps for a long time

01:10:46   where the apps used to be paid.

01:10:49   And now they're all free with in-app purchase

01:10:51   because that's where the market went

01:10:54   and they had to go there.

01:10:55   And I don't like it either.

01:10:57   I understand it because Apple also didn't offer

01:11:00   like free trials or things like that at various points.

01:11:02   And so try it for free and then pay for the features

01:11:05   has just become the model.

01:11:06   But there are certain kinds of apps that are gonna look,

01:11:08   and that's how it can be a poison pill,

01:11:12   is that Facebook has lots of free apps.

01:11:14   And that means they're gonna pay Apple a lot of money

01:11:16   if they switch to this new system

01:11:19   and they have to make a pencil out

01:11:21   because they don't get those apps for free anymore.

01:11:24   - I wanna talk about the 1 million threshold a little bit

01:11:26   because you're right.

01:11:27   I think understandably,

01:11:29   a lot of indie developers in the community

01:11:31   are freaking out, right?

01:11:32   Like, "Oh, I'd go overnight and be an overnight success

01:11:35   and now I owe hundreds of thousands of dollars."

01:11:38   That is incredibly rare.

01:11:40   Can you name one other person other than David Smith

01:11:43   that that happened to?

01:11:44   - He's the example.

01:11:46   - Yes.

01:11:49   He's the one?

01:11:51   - I'm sure like Flappy Bird Man.

01:11:54   - That's a game though.

01:11:57   I'm talking like, I think like,

01:11:58   if I'm talking about like the listeners of our show,

01:12:00   the people in our community

01:12:01   tends to be independent app developers, right?

01:12:05   It is incredibly rare for that to occur.

01:12:09   And David can speak to this for himself

01:12:14   if he ever wanted to,

01:12:15   but maybe he had that and had enough success

01:12:18   that he could have afforded it, right?

01:12:20   But like it happened,

01:12:21   but David has a subscription in his app.

01:12:24   Maybe it was successful enough

01:12:25   that he could have paid for what would have happened.

01:12:28   I genuinely don't know the answer to that,

01:12:30   but that might, you know,

01:12:31   so like you're like, "Oh, what if I wake up

01:12:33   and I have 2 million users?"

01:12:35   It's like, "Well, how many people signed up?"

01:12:36   You know, maybe you're okay now, I don't know.

01:12:39   - It goes back to what we said before too

01:12:40   about your business model.

01:12:42   Like David launched WidgetSmith

01:12:43   not knowing it was gonna be an enormous viral hit,

01:12:47   but with $2 a month, $20 a year premium upsell in the app

01:12:52   to get features that people were gonna want.

01:12:55   Calibrated carefully,

01:12:56   and I'm sure he learned a lot as he took that ride,

01:12:59   but like he benefited

01:13:00   from having an enormous amount of installs.

01:13:03   He got to see how people were using it.

01:13:05   He got to craft his app

01:13:06   so that the premium features would have real reasons

01:13:10   for you to buy them.

01:13:11   And certainly his goal there

01:13:13   is to make a pretty good average revenue per user,

01:13:16   even though a bunch of people

01:13:17   are just gonna use the free version.

01:13:19   - As Nathan in the Discord is saying,

01:13:22   if you are in these terms,

01:13:24   all you need is a one euro a year subscription, right?

01:13:27   Which I think a lot of people pay anyway,

01:13:30   but look, my point of that is, right?

01:13:32   Like if you are a developer

01:13:35   and you like the sound of some of this stuff,

01:13:36   you just have to prepare for this possibility,

01:13:40   which is about having a business model.

01:13:44   But if you don't wanna have a business model,

01:13:47   don't do this, right?

01:13:49   But there is, I think for a lot of people,

01:13:51   there is more money to be made for your business

01:13:55   outside of the app store potentially,

01:13:58   on paper, on paper there is.

01:13:59   - I would say if you're a developer of a small app

01:14:03   that is already doing fine in the app store

01:14:06   and you're under the 1 million threshold,

01:14:09   so you're in the small business program,

01:14:11   I would say it would not be impossible

01:14:14   but it's gonna be a harder sell.

01:14:16   - You just gotta look into it though, right?

01:14:17   Like you have to work out what it could mean for you.

01:14:20   - Everybody should do the math,

01:14:21   but I'm just saying the reduced commission

01:14:24   is not as great for the people under a million

01:14:25   as it is for the people over a million.

01:14:27   The people, the business is over a million,

01:14:29   that's a substantial, you're going from 30 to 20,

01:14:33   but going from 15 to 13 or whatever is not fantastic.

01:14:37   And now presumably you're paying

01:14:40   for all of your freemium installs

01:14:41   if you're over a million, which we know,

01:14:44   Pcalc Lite is, so like there are gonna be

01:14:46   a lot of longstanding apps that are gonna pick up those.

01:14:48   So you're gonna have to run the numbers.

01:14:49   I think that there are gonna be a lot,

01:14:52   a lot of developers who are gonna look at this and say,

01:14:56   I am just gonna stay with the terms I've got

01:14:58   because I'm comfortable and I'm just gonna stay

01:15:00   in the app store and there's no opportunity here.

01:15:01   Some will find opportunity here,

01:15:03   but I do think it's gonna be more the big guns

01:15:08   that are gonna be seeking the opportunity.

01:15:10   And it is funny how Tim Sweeney of Epic posted on Twitter

01:15:15   about how this was terrible and Apple is evil

01:15:18   and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

01:15:19   - There's nothing Apple can do with Tim.

01:15:21   What I, I'll tell you what I love.

01:15:22   - Well, just wait, just wait, just wait.

01:15:24   What I'm saying is Tim Sweeney can say all of that.

01:15:26   But what also happened?

01:15:28   Epic posted, we're totally coming back in the EU

01:15:31   with Fortnite, here we come, right?

01:15:33   So it's like, yeah, I hear you, Tim, you still hate Apple,

01:15:37   but your company is immediately going to take advantage

01:15:40   of this deal, this bad deal that Apple is offering you.

01:15:44   So you tell me.

01:15:46   - What I love about Tim Sweeney is he's consistent.

01:15:49   You know, like there is nothing they can do

01:15:52   that he will be happy with.

01:15:53   And you know what? - No.

01:15:54   - I respect it.

01:15:55   I respect it.

01:15:56   Like he has an opinion and his opinion is complete freedom

01:16:00   or it's criminal.

01:16:01   And there are times where I agree with him

01:16:04   because here's the thing, right?

01:16:07   Why does the 10/17% commission exist on the App Store?

01:16:12   Why does that still exist?

01:16:15   If you want to be in the App Store,

01:16:17   what are you paying Apple 10% for?

01:16:21   If the core technology fee exists, Apple consider that,

01:16:25   they consider 50 cents per customer per year

01:16:31   to be their fee for you using iOS, right?

01:16:35   - For using core technology, yes.

01:16:36   I would say the App Store- - So what is the 10% for?

01:16:39   What is the 17% for?

01:16:40   - It's marketing.

01:16:41   It is being- - Who markets you?

01:16:44   - Apple. - Do they?

01:16:46   - Yeah, well, yeah.

01:16:47   So it's being in the App Store.

01:16:50   It's being eligible for highlights and promotion

01:16:54   and editorial pieces in the App Store.

01:16:57   And it's, wait for this, Mike, 'cause I gotta say it,

01:17:00   it's being in the EU's premier iOS marketplace,

01:17:05   the App Store, and everything that comes from it

01:17:09   because so many users are always

01:17:12   just gonna use the App Store.

01:17:13   And so by being in there, that is worth it to you.

01:17:18   That's the argument.

01:17:19   That's the argument.

01:17:20   - Look, I think in 2024, the claim about its marketing,

01:17:25   I just don't think it holds up.

01:17:28   Like there may be 0.00001% of applications

01:17:33   benefit from this, but they're all paying 10%.

01:17:37   - Being in the search results is your number one reason

01:17:40   you're in the App Store, and that is marketing of the sort.

01:17:42   - Well, but these days, Jason, you have to pay

01:17:44   to make sure you're gonna be at the top of the search.

01:17:46   - Sure, that's true.

01:17:47   You get to pay Apple in order to pay Apple.

01:17:48   - This is what I'm saying.

01:17:49   Like the terms of the deal has changed so significantly

01:17:52   since the App Store was introduced.

01:17:53   I'm not sure why they take a commission anymore.

01:17:56   - We will see, well, because they want your money

01:17:58   and they think that-

01:17:59   - But like I don't know what grounds

01:18:01   in which they can argue it.

01:18:02   - Well, I just said it.

01:18:03   So let me- - But I don't agree with it.

01:18:06   - Okay, well, let me repeat it then.

01:18:08   I think for a lot of apps, it's just better

01:18:10   to be in the App Store and you're gonna have more app sales.

01:18:12   And I'll say this, we're gonna find out.

01:18:16   Because if some apps decide, if they decide

01:18:19   that it's just way better to either be in the App Store

01:18:23   and another marketplace or just not be

01:18:26   in the App Store anymore and be in an alternate EU

01:18:28   marketplace where they're gonna make more money

01:18:31   and have more customers and whatever else,

01:18:34   then I guess we'll have our answer.

01:18:36   My guess is that lots of people don't wanna install

01:18:40   app marketplaces, they're just gonna stay with the App Store

01:18:43   and those developers are not gonna want

01:18:46   to abandon being in the default.

01:18:49   I think that the default is powerful enough.

01:18:51   Now, if 10 or 17% is still too much

01:18:56   and that they're better off being on the outside,

01:18:59   then Apple will have been proven wrong.

01:19:01   But to me, the power of the default is so great

01:19:04   and they're not yet putting up a randomized list

01:19:08   of marketplaces for you to use, right?

01:19:10   It's the App Store by default and then you have

01:19:12   to find another marketplace and install it.

01:19:14   I think being in the default is probably worth 10%.

01:19:18   - See, you actually started leaning into what I was gonna

01:19:20   talk about next to kind of wrap this back around again.

01:19:22   So I've been seeing lots of people and hearing lots

01:19:25   of people really concerned that Chrome is gonna become

01:19:27   the most popular web browser on the iPhone

01:19:30   because people will be given the choice

01:19:31   rather than Safari, right?

01:19:33   They're like given the choice, they'll choose Chrome

01:19:36   rather than Safari 'cause it's what they're used to.

01:19:38   It's what they choose on their Mac,

01:19:40   it's what they choose on their PC, they choose Chrome.

01:19:42   And I've seen people being like,

01:19:43   "Ah, well, this is what people choose, they choose Chrome."

01:19:46   So Apple has to work to make them want Safari, right?

01:19:50   Instead.

01:19:51   So my point is that yeah, Apple has the premier default

01:19:56   App Store place to get apps because they have been

01:20:01   the only one and even now when there is the opportunity

01:20:05   for there to be marketplaces, they have set the terms

01:20:10   for the other marketplaces to be in their favor.

01:20:13   So it's like, I agree with you, right?

01:20:14   You are making, that is the point, right?

01:20:18   That you will stay and pay your 10 or 17%

01:20:22   because you wanna be in the main place,

01:20:26   but Apple set that table for themselves.

01:20:30   - Sure.

01:20:31   - And so, and just at this point, I don't understand,

01:20:35   like I just, why, well, I know why, no, look,

01:20:38   I understand why, obviously I understand why.

01:20:41   But in a, this is a business relationship

01:20:44   between Apple and every developer,

01:20:46   what do the developers actually get for giving Apple a cut

01:20:51   of every transaction and then an additional one on top

01:20:57   when they hit a million, you know?

01:20:58   It's like, what is the deal?

01:21:00   And then you look at things like the, you know,

01:21:02   we haven't really spoken about this,

01:21:04   but obviously I would assume most of the listeners

01:21:05   are aware of it.

01:21:06   So a lot of like hand wringing about how many apps

01:21:09   are gonna be on the Vision Pro and how many developers

01:21:12   are not bothering and, you know, I think John Gruber

01:21:17   we spoke about earlier has been referencing the idea

01:21:19   of like Apple is reaping what it's sown at this point

01:21:22   because they have not engendered themselves to developers.

01:21:27   They have not made it feel like an ongoing relationship.

01:21:32   It has been an ongoing set of adapting rules

01:21:37   and guidelines that people need to just accept

01:21:40   they have no choice.

01:21:41   And even when given a choice, most developers feel now

01:21:45   like they actually can't even make the choice

01:21:49   because they're worried that it won't work out

01:21:51   for their businesses.

01:21:52   - Yep, yep.

01:21:54   What I would say about the competition in the marketplaces

01:21:57   is if there is true competition,

01:21:58   Apple gets the home field advantage, right?

01:22:01   Which I think they should because they're the platform owner

01:22:04   but I think it shouldn't be that they shut out

01:22:06   everybody else.

01:22:07   But in a scenario where people can choose different

01:22:09   app marketplaces, which I agree that, I mean, Apple

01:22:14   because of the poison pill, lots of things,

01:22:16   Apple has stacked the deck here.

01:22:17   I don't think that those marketplaces are gonna be successful

01:22:20   except for very specific niches of product.

01:22:22   But what I would say is if you were in an environment

01:22:24   where there was true competition, then we would find out

01:22:27   whether being in Apple's app store was worth it or not.

01:22:30   But I think it's because the competition is limited

01:22:32   and it's the default, it's probably worth it

01:22:34   for most developers to be there regardless.

01:22:37   But yes, in a true competition environment

01:22:39   which is not strangely what the DMA is asking for

01:22:42   or at least not how Apple has interpreted the DMA's rules,

01:22:46   we're in a situation where we don't get to see Apple

01:22:51   have to decide does it lower its commission

01:22:53   in order to make itself more palatable for app developers.

01:22:58   And look at the Mac App Store, it's not required

01:23:00   and it's pretty quiet.

01:23:02   There's stuff, there's a lot of stuff in the Mac App Store.

01:23:04   There's also a lot of stuff that's not in the Mac App Store.

01:23:06   And even with the Mac App Store being more expansive

01:23:09   than it used to be and maybe being a place

01:23:11   that some developers are like, it's worth it being in there

01:23:13   because some people are gonna use the Mac App Store.

01:23:16   It doesn't have the power that something like iOS does

01:23:19   because of all of the limitations

01:23:21   and the fact that there's no competition.

01:23:22   Now, Safari, I wanna mention here too,

01:23:25   because like if everybody starts using Chrome,

01:23:28   is that a bad thing?

01:23:30   Because they chose it.

01:23:31   And that means that Apple has to compete

01:23:33   on browser with Chrome.

01:23:35   And if Chrome is better, shouldn't it win?

01:23:39   If Chrome is better on iOS than Safari,

01:23:41   and I hear people say, oh no, but Chrome is bad

01:23:43   'cause it kills the battery.

01:23:44   Hey, if it kills your battery on iOS

01:23:48   like it does on a Mac laptop,

01:23:50   don't you think people will notice and say,

01:23:52   oh, I'm not gonna use Chrome

01:23:53   'cause it kills my battery? - That will get out there

01:23:54   pretty quick. - That's part

01:23:55   of the competition.

01:23:56   That's part of the competition of all of this is that.

01:24:00   So again, I don't have,

01:24:03   like I think Apple should welcome competition

01:24:07   because I think it makes Apple, it keeps Apple honest.

01:24:11   And Apple will always say, well, no, we're always just,

01:24:14   our dedication to our users is the most important thing.

01:24:17   That's what drives us.

01:24:18   And like that is true to a certain point.

01:24:21   But if Chrome is breathing down your neck on iOS

01:24:25   and everybody in the EU is like, oh man,

01:24:27   Chrome is so much better than Safari.

01:24:29   Safari is really lagging behind in these areas.

01:24:32   Do you not think people at Apple are gonna be like, oh no,

01:24:36   we need to do better with Safari.

01:24:38   It's natural, of course that's gonna happen

01:24:41   'cause that's the magic of competition.

01:24:43   - I wanna just state for the record,

01:24:46   and believe it or not, I do believe that Apple

01:24:50   deserves the right to earn money.

01:24:51   I would have been happy, genuinely happy here

01:24:55   if they would have chosen one or the other, right?

01:24:58   Reduce the App Store commission

01:25:00   or introduce the core technology fee, right?

01:25:03   And just have one or the other.

01:25:05   'Cause to me it would have felt like, great.

01:25:06   They've made a concession.

01:25:08   They are like holding their hands up to the fact

01:25:10   that they have the entire market

01:25:13   and they have all of the leverage and they're adjusting.

01:25:17   Like, 'cause this is all I've wanted them to do

01:25:19   for a long time is adjust.

01:25:21   Like you set the terms so many years ago,

01:25:26   it's over a decade, right?

01:25:29   The App Store, yeah.

01:25:33   - Yeah, oh yeah.

01:25:34   - They set the terms all that time ago

01:25:36   and then haven't really adjusted them,

01:25:40   but the world has changed so significantly

01:25:42   that adjustment I believe is necessary.

01:25:46   But in the end, they've adjusted it,

01:25:50   but adjusted it in such a way that it still kind of

01:25:54   behooves most people to not move.

01:25:57   It's like, it's not really a choice.

01:25:59   If people feel like they don't have a choice.

01:26:01   But I think that they deserve money.

01:26:03   - Yeah, oh, I agree.

01:26:05   And I think that that's part of Apple's strategy

01:26:08   is to couch all of this in terms of access to marketing

01:26:12   in the App Store, access to the platform that Apple puts.

01:26:15   I mean, can we argue Apple spends a enormous amount of money

01:26:19   maintaining and operating the operating system

01:26:21   and all the APIs for developers and all the developer tools?

01:26:24   And they're essentially free?

01:26:26   So to say you've built an entire business

01:26:32   like let's say Instagram, you've built an entire business

01:26:37   on a free app download using our APIs.

01:26:40   Is it wrong for Apple to say, you should probably pay us?

01:26:45   I don't think it is.

01:26:47   That said, the problem is over the years,

01:26:49   Apple has often acted like what I've said before,

01:26:53   'cause I am colored by their actions

01:26:57   toward Mac world over the years.

01:26:59   The feeling that they view themselves

01:27:04   as the creator of value and that everybody else is a taker,

01:27:08   a way of value and almost like a parasite.

01:27:11   And I think that that is part of the attitude

01:27:13   and has been all along.

01:27:15   And both those things can be true.

01:27:17   Apple could deserve to be compensated

01:27:21   for access to their platform.

01:27:24   At the same time though, the apps on the platform

01:27:27   have made the platform.

01:27:29   And Apple makes a huge amount of profit per iPhone sold.

01:27:34   So Apple's already reaping, but viewed a certain way,

01:27:37   Apple is already reaping the benefits

01:27:40   of the work they put into their platform,

01:27:42   which is they sell expensive phones

01:27:45   that are very profitable and people buy them

01:27:47   because of the apps that are on them.

01:27:49   And that's the transaction.

01:27:51   But we can debate it and say, okay, yes,

01:27:54   but there should probably be an extra cut

01:27:56   for the tools that make those apps,

01:27:58   even though Apple's already making their money.

01:28:00   Look, billionaires who have more money than God

01:28:04   ask cash strapped cities and states to build stadiums

01:28:08   for their baseball teams and their football teams.

01:28:11   There are lots of examples where very wealthy,

01:28:14   rich individuals or companies still want more money.

01:28:18   That's why they got so rich.

01:28:20   And so, okay, maybe Apple does deserve something

01:28:23   from these businesses that are building huge businesses

01:28:26   on Apple software platforms.

01:28:28   But you're right, what is that?

01:28:30   And what is fair?

01:28:32   And what, I would say, what allows businesses to flourish,

01:28:36   Apple to flourish and consumers to benefit,

01:28:39   Apple's customers to benefit?

01:28:41   That's part of the question here.

01:28:43   And the danger of Apple taking this very,

01:28:47   very careful approach to carving out exactly what the DMA

01:28:50   makes them carve out and nothing more

01:28:52   is that you end up with sometimes

01:28:54   some very weird, distorted behavior.

01:28:56   I'm not sure it's gonna fly.

01:28:58   The idea that free to be, to sell your, not even to sell,

01:29:03   to allow your free app to be downloaded

01:29:06   in an alternative marketplace,

01:29:08   if your free app has more than a million users,

01:29:13   free app, no monetization at all, you owe Apple money.

01:29:18   Because of the act of being in an external marketplace,

01:29:21   you now owe Apple money for all of your users,

01:29:25   even though you are still not making any money.

01:29:28   - Yeah, that's wild.

01:29:29   When you put it that way, that is so wild, right?

01:29:32   - Right?

01:29:32   - Yeah.

01:29:33   - It's not, 'cause the rule is not,

01:29:35   if you make money in this app,

01:29:39   which I wonder sometimes if that should have been the rule,

01:29:41   right, which is here's our rule,

01:29:43   and it's not for free apps, it's not for all apps,

01:29:45   it's for apps that make money.

01:29:48   It's hard because it's like ads in Instagram make money,

01:29:53   and they're not like in app sequences.

01:29:55   So I don't know how you would carve them out.

01:29:57   - Well, I mean, Jason, Apple these days

01:29:59   are fine with ordering your books, so they could find a way.

01:30:02   - Exactly, so that's what I would say

01:30:04   is I'm a little surprised,

01:30:06   because one of the things that this rule does is say,

01:30:08   I am a developer of a thing that's based on open source,

01:30:12   and I just love it, and I put it in the App Store,

01:30:14   and I'm in the EU maybe, and like,

01:30:17   oh, I like the alt store people, and I wanna be there too.

01:30:21   This is just a utility, it's already in the App Store,

01:30:23   it's approved by Apple, it's fine.

01:30:24   But I wanna put it somewhere else.

01:30:27   And then you say, oh, but I have 1.5 million active users

01:30:31   in the EU of my free app that I just give away for fun.

01:30:36   Apple basically has said, you can't have the freedom

01:30:39   to give it away somewhere else,

01:30:41   because we're gonna charge you,

01:30:43   and this project is never, ever, ever gonna pay for it.

01:30:45   I know that's an extreme example,

01:30:47   but it strikes me as being one that goes to the heart of,

01:30:50   like, this doesn't seem quite right.

01:30:52   Not that Apple shouldn't find ways to make money,

01:30:54   but that some of these aspects of these rules

01:30:58   don't quite seem fair or right, morally,

01:31:03   if not legally, right?

01:31:06   So I don't know, I'm skeptical that these will stand for,

01:31:10   even if they're allowed in March,

01:31:12   I am skeptical that Apple,

01:31:15   the danger of Apple sort of saying,

01:31:17   ha ha, we followed the letter of the law,

01:31:19   but nobody's gonna like it, is that if nobody likes it,

01:31:21   and it makes no changes to the way that apps behave

01:31:24   in the EU, they're gonna write DMA2,

01:31:28   and they're gonna come for Apple again.

01:31:31   That's the problem here, is that if nothing changes,

01:31:34   then the regulators are not gonna be satisfied.

01:31:38   - One can hope, I think.

01:31:41   - We'll see, we'll see.

01:31:43   I do think, and we mentioned this earlier,

01:31:45   I just wanna reiterate,

01:31:48   the act of Apple building all of this technology

01:31:52   undercuts one of Apple's arguments,

01:31:54   which is how dare you demand that we use our employees

01:31:59   to build special features for you, 'cause here they are.

01:32:03   And Apple must know, I mean,

01:32:05   Apple knows that this won't be the last place

01:32:07   where some aspect of this is gonna be made a rule,

01:32:10   and so they're gonna do things

01:32:14   based on this now going forward, that's fine.

01:32:16   The other risk Apple has here, by the way,

01:32:18   is that they've always said,

01:32:19   once you allow this kind of unfettered access

01:32:22   to the platform scams and-

01:32:24   - Terrible things will happen.

01:32:25   - And terrible things will happen.

01:32:27   And if those don't happen in the EU,

01:32:30   they can't make that argument anymore either.

01:32:33   And I do foresee, first off,

01:32:35   I foresee that Apple's marketing and PR group

01:32:37   is going to spring on any example of bad actors

01:32:41   in third-party marketplaces,

01:32:45   because even if it means that Apple's own customers

01:32:47   are gonna be harmed,

01:32:48   they're also gonna wanna make it clear

01:32:50   that this is an example that wouldn't have happened

01:32:51   without the DMA.

01:32:52   I think they will try to make hay with that.

01:32:54   It's gonna be tough, but I think they're gonna try.

01:32:56   But the reality is every other organization on the planet

01:33:00   is looking at this and saying,

01:33:01   oh, we could do that too.

01:33:04   And now maybe they'll let the machine run in the EU

01:33:07   for a while and see what the ramifications are,

01:33:09   but it has just gotten so much easier

01:33:12   for any regulatory body

01:33:17   to demand things of Apple because of this.

01:33:21   And so that may lead to some interesting places

01:33:24   or nowhere at all, depending on what happens in the EU.

01:33:27   But I can totally see other countries and regions saying,

01:33:32   give us that, right?

01:33:35   Do that like you did in Europe.

01:33:36   We want that. - Thanks so much.

01:33:38   - And writing their regulations or laws specifically

01:33:41   to do that or to do that with a twist

01:33:43   because they don't like this part of it or not.

01:33:46   All of that is gonna happen.

01:33:47   So I feel like this is only the beginning.

01:33:50   We're not even at day one yet.

01:33:52   This is only the beginning of this,

01:33:53   but the next phase of all of this is gonna happen

01:33:57   as we watch what happens in Europe,

01:33:58   but also as everybody else who has the power

01:34:01   to force Apple to do things in their markets

01:34:03   watches what Apple does in Europe.

01:34:05   - This episode is brought to you by Uni Pizza Ovens.

01:34:10   Uni is the world's number one pizza oven company

01:34:13   letting you make restaurant quality pizza

01:34:14   in your very own backyard.

01:34:16   They make surprisingly small ovens powered by your choice

01:34:19   of the wood, charcoal gas, and now electric,

01:34:22   thanks to the introduction of the Uni Vault,

01:34:24   which works indoors or outdoors

01:34:26   with a bunch of incredibly smart technology

01:34:28   to give you restaurant quality pizza

01:34:30   and an electric oven as well.

01:34:32   It was so good in 2023,

01:34:34   Oprah put it on her favorite things list.

01:34:36   I mean, if Oprah's gonna do it, you know what I mean?

01:34:38   If it's good enough for Oprah, it's good enough for you.

01:34:40   - Pizza, you get pizza, you get pizza,

01:34:43   everybody gets pizza.

01:34:45   - And that's what can happen with an Uni Pizza Oven

01:34:47   because they're incredibly portable,

01:34:48   they can fit into any outside space

01:34:50   and you can cook pizza, restaurant quality pizza

01:34:52   in as little as 60 seconds.

01:34:53   So you only need a minute for every person

01:34:55   that's gonna be there.

01:34:56   So yes, everyone can get pizza with an Uni Pizza Oven.

01:35:00   Uni Pizza Ovens reach temperatures

01:35:02   of up to 900 degrees Fahrenheit, 500 degrees Celsius.

01:35:05   The high temperature is what separates the pizzas

01:35:07   you can make in these ovens

01:35:08   from what you can make in a conventional oven.

01:35:11   Another of Uni's really popular models is the Koda 16.

01:35:14   This is a gas powered oven that can cook

01:35:16   up to 16 inch pizzas with an innovative L-shaped burner

01:35:19   at the back to give you even heat distribution.

01:35:22   Their ovens start at just $299

01:35:24   and they do free shipping in the US, the UK and the EU.

01:35:27   Jason, does everybody get pizza in the snow house

01:35:30   when the Uni's out? - Yeah, everybody.

01:35:31   I mean, there's not that many of us now, humans.

01:35:33   The animals don't get pizza, the humans get pizza.

01:35:36   - Right, makes sense, makes sense.

01:35:37   I have big Uni news in the Snell household

01:35:40   which is it's always pizza season now

01:35:44   because I bought, rather than pack away the Uni

01:35:48   for the winter, 'cause our winter

01:35:50   is not particularly harsh here,

01:35:51   I bought a cover for my Uni Oven.

01:35:56   And so now it can just stay, it just stays out

01:35:59   in the backyard on the table and I can uncover it

01:36:02   and make things in it and then cover it back up again.

01:36:05   And I don't have to bring it in from the elements.

01:36:07   - Very cool. - So yes.

01:36:09   - Yeah, they do all of that stuff.

01:36:10   You can get covers, you can get all the kinds of accessories,

01:36:13   peels, cutters, tables, the whole nine yards.

01:36:17   Just go to uni.com, O-O-N-I.com, use the code upgrade,

01:36:21   either try upgrade 2023 or upgrade 2024 at checkout

01:36:25   and you can get 10% of your purchase of an Uni Pizza Oven.

01:36:29   Uni Pizza Ovens are the best way

01:36:31   to bring restaurant quality pizza to your own backyard.

01:36:34   That is uni.com, O-O-N-I.com.

01:36:37   Thanks to Uni Pizza Ovens for their support

01:36:39   of this show and Relay FM.

01:36:40   I,

01:36:44   now for me, the DMA is in the rear view, right?

01:36:52   - Okay. - We've spoken about this now.

01:36:55   It will come back, but I wanna put that behind me

01:36:59   because I want to focus on what I have been excited about

01:37:03   and what I am excited about is Vision Pro this week.

01:37:08   Vision Pro. - Let's do it.

01:37:09   This is the week. - But I wanna hear from you

01:37:12   'cause you got to try it again.

01:37:15   - I did on Friday.

01:37:17   I went down, you know, I went down to Apple Park

01:37:20   as you do. - Swung by.

01:37:21   Swung by. - Just did some power sliding.

01:37:23   Yep, yeah, I did.

01:37:26   I went to Apple Park, I parked under the visitor center,

01:37:29   went across the street up to the Steve Jobs Theater

01:37:31   and got another demo experience.

01:37:36   Very similar, I would say, to our WWDC experience,

01:37:41   but I would say more polished.

01:37:47   Clearly it's gotten more polished.

01:37:51   There was stuff that happened when we did it

01:37:53   that was sort of like,

01:37:53   "Here, we're gonna play a video for you now."

01:37:56   And instead it was like, go to the TV app

01:37:59   and go to the spatial and then tap on this video

01:38:02   and play it and then use this control to make it immersive.

01:38:06   So like there's UI for things that were more sort of wired up

01:38:10   as demos before.

01:38:11   I did, I found it funny that I have internalized

01:38:16   some gestures that are not right over the last six months

01:38:21   where I thought like, "Oh, what you do to move a window

01:38:24   is you reach out with your hand and grab it."

01:38:26   And that's not what it is.

01:38:27   You look at the grab bar and then you just make

01:38:29   the pinch gesture anywhere.

01:38:31   And I was like, "Oh, right, this is actually less work

01:38:35   than I remember it being."

01:38:36   - Your eyes are doing all the work really, right?

01:38:38   - Yeah, yeah.

01:38:39   And I would say the challenge with any of these things

01:38:42   and why I'm so looking forward to people

01:38:44   who've spent time with this product outside

01:38:46   and I imagine in the next day or two,

01:38:48   we'll probably get a bunch of embargoed reviews.

01:38:50   I do not have one, by the way.

01:38:51   I will not be doing an embargoed review.

01:38:53   I don't have a Vision Pro, just there's the canary.

01:38:56   But I imagine once we start getting people

01:38:58   who've gotten them under embargo,

01:39:01   we will finally have some first impressions

01:39:03   that are not based on the walkthrough.

01:39:06   And it's not just that Apple is walking you through

01:39:08   and controlling everything you see and do, it is that.

01:39:10   But it's also that honestly,

01:39:12   there's just a sensory overload.

01:39:14   When you're in a thing that you've never been in before

01:39:16   or haven't been in for six months,

01:39:17   the first 10 or 15 minutes is just like,

01:39:20   I can't apply any critical faculty to what I'm doing.

01:39:24   I'm just trying, my brain's just trying to process

01:39:27   what it's being sent.

01:39:28   And it was only the last half of the demo

01:39:30   where I started to have questions about,

01:39:32   oh, this is an interesting interaction that they've chosen.

01:39:36   Like I noticed only after about 15 minutes, I was like,

01:39:39   oh, every time an app wants you to generate

01:39:44   a 3D object in space or put you in a immersive space

01:39:49   or anything like that, there's a button to enable it.

01:39:55   And I had that moment where I thought,

01:39:56   oh, this is interesting.

01:39:57   They are asking, and I asked, and they said, yes,

01:40:01   that one of the best practices of this thing is

01:40:03   if you're gonna enter a very different kind of mode,

01:40:06   like an immersive mode or generate an object,

01:40:09   that it needs to be the user saying, let's do this now,

01:40:14   rather than it just sort of happening.

01:40:16   But I was, it took me 15 minutes into it

01:40:19   before my brain was capable

01:40:21   of sort of appreciating interface details

01:40:24   just because it's so much.

01:40:25   So I feel very strongly by the way,

01:40:28   that although there will be some embargo reviews

01:40:31   in the first few days, next few days,

01:40:34   this thing is so huge that even if somebody's had it

01:40:38   for a week-ish, maybe a little less than a week,

01:40:42   do I think that those will be great first tests

01:40:47   of first impressions, but I'll just say it now,

01:40:51   nobody is gonna be able to do a complete comprehensive review

01:40:54   of this thing in six days,

01:40:56   even if they take all six days to use it.

01:41:00   - The apps aren't even available yet.

01:41:02   You can't even get the apps, right?

01:41:04   - Exactly.

01:41:04   - I'm sure that there's some you can,

01:41:06   but like a lot of stuff that we're gonna find

01:41:08   to be really cool and maybe interesting use,

01:41:10   'cause they're not available yet.

01:41:12   - Yeah, yeah, I mean, I'm still,

01:41:13   as we've been talking today, I've been getting notes.

01:41:15   Obviously Apple has encouraged people

01:41:18   to announce their Vision Pro apps today

01:41:20   because I keep getting emails

01:41:21   with more Vision Pro apps in them.

01:41:23   But yeah, and it's more than anything else,

01:41:28   it's also a new platform and a new interaction model.

01:41:30   Like I think after, if you spend six days with it,

01:41:33   and by the way, when you get a product and you review it,

01:41:34   you don't actually spend six days with it.

01:41:36   You spend some number of days with it,

01:41:38   and then you also have to write your review

01:41:40   and capture your video and do all those other things.

01:41:42   I think those are all essentially gonna be first looks,

01:41:45   first impressions.

01:41:46   I think it's gonna take a long time,

01:41:48   and there are so many different angles here

01:41:50   that there will be much more to say about it

01:41:54   from everybody involved.

01:41:55   Don't take those first impressions as the be all end all.

01:41:59   I think that there's a lot more to come

01:42:02   because there's just so much there.

01:42:05   I would be, if I had been given an embargo

01:42:08   and told you've got five days with this,

01:42:10   I would be grateful, and I would work very hard

01:42:13   to do a first impressions piece about it.

01:42:15   But do I think that if I had been given five days

01:42:18   with the Vision Pro, I could write a thorough

01:42:20   and complete review of the whole experience?

01:42:22   I do not, 'cause I think it's too much for that.

01:42:25   I think it's too many things.

01:42:27   It's gonna take time.

01:42:28   But I did appreciate seeing the latest state of the art.

01:42:32   There are more apps.

01:42:33   There are third-party apps.

01:42:35   I was able to run, I ran DJ from Algorithm,

01:42:38   which is always there at every new Apple platform

01:42:42   that happens. - DJ Palace Lighter

01:42:43   in the house.

01:42:44   - Yeah, so yeah, well, it was really hilarious,

01:42:47   me and competently DJing.

01:42:48   But you pop out a 3D turntable.

01:42:51   You press that button and a 3D turntable pops out

01:42:54   and you stand at the turntable

01:42:55   and you can actually use your hands to, what is it?

01:43:00   It's not jogging, it's scratching.

01:43:03   Is that what it is?

01:43:05   When you take your hand on the record and go,

01:43:07   "Vwoop, vwoop, vwoop, vwoop."

01:43:09   - I'm choosing not to help you.

01:43:11   - What's that called?

01:43:13   - I'm enjoying this.

01:43:14   Yeah, scratching is what you're looking for, yeah.

01:43:16   - I don't know.

01:43:17   Anyway, I did it.

01:43:19   I did it.

01:43:20   - You did it.

01:43:21   - I did it, yeah, it was really good.

01:43:24   I said, "Where's the middle-aged dad music

01:43:26   "to choose from here?"

01:43:27   And they said they don't have that there.

01:43:28   - No tears for fears on these decks today?

01:43:30   - I picked some beeps and boops

01:43:32   and they were beepy and boopy and that's fine too.

01:43:34   I like beeps and boops.

01:43:35   - Yeah, I've been keeping an Apple Note of apps

01:43:37   that I'm seeing online

01:43:39   and I'm like, "These are the ones I wanna try."

01:43:43   So I've just got a running list of stuff.

01:43:45   DJ is one of them just because I think it's going to be,

01:43:49   well, 'cause one, I know they've had a lot of access

01:43:51   because they've been in press releases

01:43:53   going all the way back to the beginning.

01:43:55   So I expect it should be polished when it's released.

01:43:59   It should be one of the more,

01:44:01   but it also is one of the only apps

01:44:03   that I've seen anybody talk about.

01:44:06   So I was doing some interesting stuff

01:44:08   to use hand tracking to interact with something

01:44:12   that's not a video game.

01:44:14   So I'm intrigued about it for that

01:44:16   and I wanna try it out for that because I think--

01:44:19   - It's got dials and stuff

01:44:20   that you actually can grab and slide too,

01:44:22   which again, will that be the right interface?

01:44:25   Is it too skeuomorphic?

01:44:27   I don't know, but it's an interesting experiment

01:44:30   and that's why I found it fascinating.

01:44:32   They had me watch the Super Mario Brothers movie clip

01:44:34   as I mentioned before that they're using in the demos

01:44:36   even though freaking Avatar is right there.

01:44:39   We're like, "No, no."

01:44:40   - Did Mario look good?

01:44:41   - Listen to Chris Pratt going, "It looked fine."

01:44:44   Chris Pratt was great in that movie.

01:44:45   - Chris Pratt was great in that movie.

01:44:46   He was great in that movie.

01:44:47   - Whatever.

01:44:47   - He was.

01:44:48   People didn't like him, but he was great in that movie.

01:44:50   - I have no interest in watching that movie,

01:44:52   let me tell you.

01:44:53   - It's me.

01:44:54   - So yeah, he says that.

01:44:56   He does a little, "Oh, what's that?"

01:44:59   I'm like, "Oh no, no, no, no, thank you."

01:45:01   Anyway, so I did watch that.

01:45:03   The immersive video looks really great.

01:45:05   Again, boy, I can't wait to see what they do with that.

01:45:09   Those, I saw the clips, but those are all programs

01:45:13   in the TV app.

01:45:14   So like the Alicia Keys concert where she's singing to you

01:45:19   and you're standing there awkwardly saying,

01:45:21   "But I don't even know you, Alicia.

01:45:22   Surely somebody more important is in this room.

01:45:25   Perhaps you should talk to them."

01:45:27   I should, can I step out of the room now?

01:45:29   The whole thing is there and the sharks and the rhinos

01:45:34   and like all, there are like programs with that stuff.

01:45:37   So that'll be interesting to watch.

01:45:39   There's a goal from above the bar,

01:45:43   the crossbar of the soccer goal.

01:45:46   - Did you get to see the Disney+ app?

01:45:50   - I did.

01:45:51   - Was it good? - I did.

01:45:53   It's good.

01:45:54   So they have their own immersive environments

01:45:58   that are just in the Disney+ app.

01:46:00   So like you can choose the scare floor, tattooing.

01:46:06   You're actually like in Moss Icely among,

01:46:10   it's almost like you're at the land speeder drive-in

01:46:12   at Moss Icely is basically where you are.

01:46:15   There's Avengers Tower that's got little,

01:46:18   and they've dressed it up, you know,

01:46:21   they've dressed it up like Disneyland.

01:46:22   Like the Avengers Tower reminded me so much

01:46:25   of the Avengers headquarters at our Avengers campus

01:46:29   at California Adventure, because it's the same thing

01:46:31   where it's like, it's a set essentially

01:46:33   from the Avengers movies, but they've also placed

01:46:36   in a very Disney way, little objects everywhere

01:46:40   that are things referring to the Avengers and stuff, right?

01:46:45   So those are in there and you can watch,

01:46:48   and then they have a bunch of 3D content

01:46:51   because a lot of their movies are in 3D.

01:46:53   My understanding is that when you start to play something,

01:46:57   I think in the TV app and in the Disney+ app,

01:47:01   this may only be true in one of them,

01:47:03   you basically are told there's a 3D version of this,

01:47:08   do you want to watch that?

01:47:09   And then you choose that, and then you're watching a 3D,

01:47:11   if you want, movie at the edge of the Avengers Tower

01:47:16   or on the scare floor for Monsters Inc.

01:47:20   And then when you're in the TV app,

01:47:24   Apple's immersive environments are available for that too.

01:47:27   But the Disney+ app, yeah, I was impressed.

01:47:29   It shows you the possibilities there.

01:47:31   I think the only thing that I think is funny

01:47:34   is that the environments, the Disney environments

01:47:38   are only available in the Disney app.

01:47:39   So you can't watch somebody else's movie

01:47:41   on the scare floor, right?

01:47:42   - Yeah, but you get that though, right?

01:47:43   - That's not allowed.

01:47:44   I do, I do, and I think it's okay.

01:47:45   - Because also Apple said, right,

01:47:46   that I hope that it changes in the future.

01:47:48   I hope it's not like watch faces,

01:47:50   that all the environments are theirs,

01:47:53   that they're the only ones that you can mix and match

01:47:55   apps and environments, it's Apple's environments.

01:47:57   - Right, right, they're like system-wide environments

01:48:00   versus app-specific environments.

01:48:01   But anyway, Disney did app-specific environments,

01:48:04   and I saw a couple of them, they were really good.

01:48:07   - Which I think is great.

01:48:08   I'm happy that Disney have done that,

01:48:10   'cause I bet that's gonna be something

01:48:11   that people are really excited about,

01:48:13   and I hope that it encourages more companies.

01:48:16   I mean, it's quote-unquote easy for Disney

01:48:18   because they have like obvious things they can do.

01:48:20   Like some companies are gonna struggle,

01:48:22   like what is the thing we would put our app in?

01:48:25   But there are lots of companies

01:48:27   that could do a similar thing, right?

01:48:29   Like insert your favorite franchise here, right?

01:48:34   Like why could you not watch that?

01:48:36   Why could you not watch Lord of the Rings

01:48:37   sitting on the top of a hill in New Zealand?

01:48:41   - Right, yeah, so you could also go to New Zealand

01:48:45   with your iPhone and do that, by the way,

01:48:47   but it would be more logistics.

01:48:49   - It's quite, actually even more expensive

01:48:51   than getting a vision pro. - More expensive

01:48:52   than the vision pro.

01:48:53   So the fourth item, there's a question in the Discord

01:48:55   about will watching movies in immersive video

01:48:58   fade away and appeal over time?

01:49:00   Maybe, it is a novelty, but like the fourth Disney location

01:49:04   is a theater, a movie theater.

01:49:07   And what I found is on the Quest,

01:49:11   they have lots of ridiculous things

01:49:13   like you can watch in space and stuff.

01:49:15   I like the movie theater.

01:49:17   You're sitting in the best seat in the house

01:49:19   in a movie theater, and then it's got interactive lighting.

01:49:23   So like when the movie is bright,

01:49:25   the light is on the seats, and when it's dark,

01:49:28   there's not lights on the seats.

01:49:29   It feels really realistic as being in the context

01:49:32   of a movie theater.

01:49:33   I am looking forward to testing

01:49:35   the Disney movie theater experience and seeing how that is,

01:49:37   because in the end, after you've had your fun

01:49:40   at the Tatooine drive-in or the Tony Stark drive-in,

01:49:44   it might be that the best thing

01:49:45   is the really nice movie theater environment or nothing.

01:49:50   But so I also, among the things

01:49:53   that I think is more polished,

01:49:54   although I can't decide how much of this is out,

01:49:56   I think it's a little bit of both,

01:49:57   how much of this is Apple and how much of this is the,

01:50:01   well, it's all Apple.

01:50:02   How much of it is Apple making some feature decisions

01:50:04   and how much of it is Apple improving the product

01:50:08   since it was in beta back in June?

01:50:11   But the Safari demo where they say,

01:50:15   "Oh, look at that crisp text and the readability,

01:50:17   et cetera, et cetera."

01:50:19   You remember that, right?

01:50:20   - I did.

01:50:21   - I think they've made the fonts bigger,

01:50:25   which is probably good because if the fonts are bigger,

01:50:29   everything is gonna look crisper in that way.

01:50:32   I do think it was crisper though.

01:50:35   I don't know for sure,

01:50:37   'cause I can't compare exactly what I saw six months ago

01:50:39   to now, or I guess seven months ago to now.

01:50:42   - Well, here's a question I have for you.

01:50:43   Do you feel like it fit you better than the first time?

01:50:46   - Well, let me finish this thought

01:50:47   and then I have some thoughts about that.

01:50:49   So I think the text rendering though was crisper and clearer.

01:50:52   I think that maybe one of the reasons

01:50:54   that I've heard people say,

01:50:55   "Oh yeah, I can read in it just fine."

01:50:57   Where I felt kind of like it didn't,

01:50:59   it wasn't, it was a little muddy back in June.

01:51:03   Whatever has happened, it felt like the text was better.

01:51:07   But I think that it was also larger,

01:51:09   but I do think it was better.

01:51:11   Fit is a huge one.

01:51:12   So I think in the end,

01:51:14   that knit band is gonna go down in history

01:51:17   with like the digital touch on the Apple Watch.

01:51:20   'Cause they had us all wear that knit band.

01:51:23   And in June, you remember my report about that, right?

01:51:27   Which is like, my face hurt, my head hurt.

01:51:29   And I couldn't get comfortable.

01:51:30   And I was trying it lower down on the back and higher up

01:51:33   and I was cranking it tighter and cranking it looser

01:51:35   and moving around on my front of my face

01:51:38   and just trying to get it to work so that it didn't hurt.

01:51:42   And I never did.

01:51:43   It really was uncomfortable the entire time I used it.

01:51:46   So this time they had me use the dual strap.

01:51:48   They didn't even have me.

01:51:49   The knit strap was just laying on the table.

01:51:52   They had me use the dual strap.

01:51:53   And when I put it on, they actually said,

01:51:55   "Oh yeah, you can basically unvelcro it and move it

01:51:58   until you get it and you can adjust it to go."

01:52:00   Once I got that adjusted, it was fine the whole time.

01:52:05   I had no issues whatsoever with comfort.

01:52:08   So I don't know.

01:52:12   - Well, something I wonder about

01:52:13   is if you can combine the two.

01:52:15   Like, can I use the knit strap with the top part?

01:52:18   'Cause that's what we did at WWDC.

01:52:20   It was a combo.

01:52:22   - I, they didn't suggest that.

01:52:24   They suggested that this is the strap.

01:52:26   And I've heard through the grapevine

01:52:27   that this is the snap you use for longer experiences.

01:52:30   That it's harder to adjust and harder to get into,

01:52:33   but it also is much better in terms of a proper fit

01:52:37   than the other thing.

01:52:38   Also, people are asking in the Discord

01:52:40   about how it worked.

01:52:44   It worked very, I brought my glasses,

01:52:47   although actually I sent them a prescription in advance,

01:52:50   my glasses prescription, which I had,

01:52:52   'cause I made an order of one.

01:52:54   And then they scanned my face there.

01:52:56   And then they used that as setup.

01:52:58   They used the, essentially the same app

01:53:01   that they use for the store to scan my face for that.

01:53:05   And then very nicely at the end, they said,

01:53:09   "Can we save your personal data for your review unit?"

01:53:14   And I said, "Sure."

01:53:17   It was nice of them to ask, but they had,

01:53:20   'cause this is the rare Apple product

01:53:21   that requires exact measurements.

01:53:24   So hopefully I will get a review unit at some point.

01:53:26   Don't know when, but hopefully I will.

01:53:28   - Do you know if the sizing matched what you had scanned?

01:53:32   - That I do not know.

01:53:33   They didn't tell me.

01:53:34   So when I get a review unit, I will know the size of that.

01:53:38   And I'll know if it matched the one that I ordered

01:53:40   from the Apple store to come on Friday.

01:53:44   So we'll see.

01:53:45   But yeah, it felt, I used the dual strap

01:53:48   and it felt really good.

01:53:49   And it was vastly superior.

01:53:52   Like I was comfortable wearing it.

01:53:54   And I couldn't say that in June.

01:53:55   Now back in June, I said, "Look, we couldn't get it right.

01:53:58   The goal was to get through the demo.

01:54:00   It was a very limited amount of time.

01:54:02   I wasn't gonna push it.

01:54:03   And I'm sure that I would figure out

01:54:05   how to be more comfortable down the road."

01:54:08   I'm happy to report that this demo,

01:54:10   I didn't have any comfort problems at all.

01:54:12   - I do wonder too, 'cause they specifically

01:54:15   thought of WWDC that they didn't have

01:54:18   that many light seals available,

01:54:20   like the part that goes in the front of the face.

01:54:22   And I wonder if like another component of it,

01:54:25   as well as the straps, which I completely understand,

01:54:27   we'll call the massive difference.

01:54:29   But like, I wonder if maybe it fit better

01:54:31   to your face this time than last time.

01:54:33   We don't know the answer to that,

01:54:34   but I could imagine that being something.

01:54:37   - Also, I wanted to mention just a funny thing.

01:54:41   They did the spatial video thing.

01:54:42   So they showed a video, some of which were very familiar

01:54:45   of a spatial video shot with Vision Pro.

01:54:48   And then they showed a video shot with iPhone 15 Pro.

01:54:51   And it made me laugh 'cause it's a mom and kids

01:54:54   blowing bubbles on like a grassy area.

01:54:58   And you know why they're blowing the bubbles,

01:55:00   is 'cause the bubbles are in that foreground

01:55:02   where you're gonna get a 3D effect.

01:55:04   And the 3D effect is really limited on the iPhone

01:55:06   because the distance between the two lenses

01:55:09   isn't particularly great.

01:55:11   But what made me laugh was very clearly somebody,

01:55:14   or probably something, a bubble machine,

01:55:17   had been placed just off camera to the right.

01:55:21   Because while this scene with the kids was going on,

01:55:24   a constant stream of bubbles was being emitted

01:55:27   right in front of me.

01:55:28   And I just laughed.

01:55:29   And I actually said to the people in the room,

01:55:31   the Apple PR people in the room with me,

01:55:33   I said, "Does it come with a bubble maker off to the right?"

01:55:37   And they just chuckled.

01:55:38   But it's like, you know, 'cause I appreciate like

01:55:41   a lot of the 3D effects, especially on the iPhone,

01:55:45   are gonna be subtle because of all of the technical reasons.

01:55:48   And I just, I appreciate that they're like,

01:55:50   "Nope, we're gonna have a bubble machine."

01:55:52   Or again, I don't know that for sure.

01:55:53   Or a couple of interns frantically blowing bubbles,

01:55:57   but there were a lot of bubbles coming from off screen,

01:56:00   is all I'm saying, in order to give that extra effect.

01:56:04   Extra, "So turn on the bubble machine."

01:56:07   That's a very old reference.

01:56:08   - I don't get it.

01:56:09   I'm very excited for Friday.

01:56:13   I don't truly know what to expect

01:56:16   from having an extended period of time with this.

01:56:20   Like, you know, what is it gonna be like

01:56:23   when I'm in hour two?

01:56:25   I don't know, but I'm excited about it.

01:56:28   I'm excited about all of the apps that are gonna appear.

01:56:31   I'm excited to watch an Avengers movie

01:56:34   sitting in Avengers Tower.

01:56:36   That's exciting to me.

01:56:38   Yeah, we're on the verge of this thing.

01:56:43   Whatever it's gonna end up being.

01:56:45   - Whatever it is, yeah.

01:56:48   - What is it gonna be like to prepare

01:56:50   for next week's upgrade while wearing it?

01:56:52   'Cause that will be my plan, right?

01:56:53   I'll do all my show prep wearing it.

01:56:55   - Sure.

01:56:56   - What is that gonna feel like?

01:56:57   How is that gonna be?

01:56:58   Like, am I gonna use my Mac?

01:57:00   How much am I gonna use my Mac?

01:57:01   - Oh, I typed.

01:57:03   - Oh. - I typed.

01:57:04   - Okay.

01:57:05   - I did hand typing,

01:57:07   where you type with fingers on the keyboard.

01:57:09   It's kind of dumb, but it works.

01:57:11   I typed sixcolors.com.

01:57:12   - How different is it to using like a virtual keyboard

01:57:15   and an iPad, like a software keyboard and an iPad?

01:57:17   Like, is it very, very different?

01:57:19   - It's suspended in the air.

01:57:21   I'd say it's much slower and it really is.

01:57:23   I felt like it was a finger typing experience.

01:57:25   However, they said you can also use,

01:57:27   and this is a mind bending thing.

01:57:29   You can I type.

01:57:31   - Yeah, I don't think that's good for us.

01:57:32   - Which is you look at a letter and pinch your fingers

01:57:34   and look at a letter and pinch your fingers.

01:57:35   I don't recommend that either.

01:57:36   - Can you swipe type?

01:57:38   - I don't think so.

01:57:39   I didn't try, but I assume not.

01:57:41   Maybe, I don't know.

01:57:42   I have real doubts about the precision available

01:57:46   on that keyboard.

01:57:47   I think the answer is, and I did try this too.

01:57:51   There is talk to type where there's also

01:57:53   a little microphone icon that you can look at and tap.

01:57:57   Actually, you don't even tap.

01:57:59   You look at the microphone icon

01:58:00   and then you say words and they come out.

01:58:02   - That's cool.

01:58:04   - Right, you don't even have to tap.

01:58:06   That's smart because that's gonna be your best way

01:58:09   to do short field text input is your voice.

01:58:13   It's gonna be the easiest way to get that text out.

01:58:16   - Just a couple of days away.

01:58:19   - I know it's amazing.

01:58:23   I don't even know what I'm gonna do with it.

01:58:29   I feel like I don't have like a list of like,

01:58:31   here are the 10 things to do when I put it together.

01:58:35   I think I'm just gonna kind of feel my way around.

01:58:37   I imagine I'll use the built-in apps.

01:58:40   I will finally, all these nice people who put me

01:58:42   on their test flights for the Vision OS apps,

01:58:44   I'm like, finally, I'll actually be able to use that.

01:58:48   'Cause I get the updates.

01:58:48   It's like, oh, I did a new beta.

01:58:49   I'm like, ah, I still don't have it.

01:58:51   Third party apps.

01:58:54   Then yeah, it's gonna be FaceTime calls and personas.

01:58:59   - I'm looking forward to whoever I can persona call

01:59:01   with first, right?

01:59:02   Like this is gonna be a race.

01:59:04   Who can I persona call with first?

01:59:06   That's gonna be a train wreck in the lower form.

01:59:09   - And I wanna try to use it with a Mac and see how that goes.

01:59:12   - I'm looking forward to 3D movies too.

01:59:14   I'm gonna give that a go.

01:59:16   - Yeah, I was telling a friend who was visiting this weekend,

01:59:20   I said, I'm gonna have to do some testing.

01:59:21   And he's like, oh, like watch a whole 3D movie.

01:59:23   I'm like, yeah, but for my work,

01:59:25   I'm gonna have to watch a 3D movie for my work

01:59:27   or at least portions of various 3D movies for my work.

01:59:30   That's gonna be good.

01:59:31   So should I ask?

01:59:34   - I assume you've got a transatlantic flight coming up.

01:59:38   - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:59:39   I'm going to America,

01:59:39   I'm picking one up on a Friday morning

01:59:42   and then spending best part of the week.

01:59:46   We're kind of turning it into a little bit of a vacation too.

01:59:49   And so, 'cause I've got to make the trips

01:59:51   and I'm gonna make the most of it.

01:59:52   And also it's like one of those things where like,

01:59:53   I wouldn't wanna pick it up on Friday.

01:59:55   Then when am I gonna leave?

01:59:56   'Cause I don't wanna leave and like arrive

01:59:58   and then like mess up all my shows, right?

01:59:59   'Cause I'm all weirded out and jet-glagged.

02:00:01   'Cause it's a big week, right?

02:00:03   Like recording all these shows, it's gonna be a big week.

02:00:06   Like this is no matter what, as we said before,

02:00:09   no matter what way this goes, it's big content for us.

02:00:12   And so like, I wanna be on it and ready and raring to go.

02:00:15   I'm very excited, very excited.

02:00:19   And it's gonna be, and I'm preparing for headaches.

02:00:24   You know?

02:00:25   - Sure, yeah.

02:00:26   - 'Cause I'm gonna overuse it.

02:00:28   - Parasite them all.

02:00:29   Like I will be using this over the first few days

02:00:33   more than I assume I would use it on a regular day.

02:00:37   That would be my assumption, but we'll figure it out.

02:00:39   - I think that's probably right for both of us.

02:00:42   That's true.

02:00:42   Wow, this is weird.

02:00:43   It's like we're holding hands

02:00:46   and jumping into a new world together, right?

02:00:49   Like this is the last upgrade of this era

02:00:51   and then a new era begins of whatever it is.

02:00:54   - Yeah.

02:00:55   Like this is one of the reasons

02:00:57   I'm so looking forward to this

02:00:59   because I just don't feel like we've done this

02:01:02   anything like this before.

02:01:03   - No.

02:01:04   - Right?

02:01:05   This just isn't a thing that me and you have gone through

02:01:07   in the history of our show nearly 500 episodes.

02:01:11   - Yeah.

02:01:11   - And like now we're like this thing's about to happen

02:01:13   and we don't really know what to expect from it.

02:01:16   And it's gonna change the trajectory of the show

02:01:17   for an amount of time.

02:01:19   - I have said to several people over the last week,

02:01:23   this is why I got into this business

02:01:28   is seeing what new things are

02:01:32   before it's ready for everybody else,

02:01:36   but getting that glimpse of the future,

02:01:37   trying to understand it,

02:01:39   trying to communicate what it is, what the issues are,

02:01:42   but like the fundamentally the idea

02:01:44   that you are seeing something that is

02:01:47   at the edge of what we can make right now.

02:01:52   And that might be telling us things

02:01:55   about what the future is like.

02:01:57   Even, you know, that is,

02:01:59   I just think that's really exciting.

02:02:01   - We'll be there and we'll be back next week

02:02:04   where we will have our impressions.

02:02:06   Very excited about that. - We will.

02:02:08   I think, yes, we will, won't we?

02:02:10   - Yep. - Wow.

02:02:12   Just like that.

02:02:12   - I'm sure that you'll be writing more

02:02:13   at sixcolors.com over that time.

02:02:15   - Sure, I'll be writing them all with one finger

02:02:18   on a little funny keyboard.

02:02:21   And I'll say for me, I'm gonna be planning to post like

02:02:24   videos and photos and stuff probably on Instagram.

02:02:28   I'm like I-M-Y-K-E of my whole vision quest

02:02:30   that I'm gonna be going on to pick this thing up.

02:02:33   You can find us on Mastodon.

02:02:35   Jason is @jasonel on zeppelin.flights.

02:02:37   I am @imike, I-M-Y-K-E on mike.social.

02:02:41   You can find video clips of the show

02:02:43   on our Mastodon account.

02:02:44   We are upgrade@relayfm.social.

02:02:46   You can also watch clips of the show there

02:02:48   and on TikTok, Instagram, and YouTube,

02:02:51   where we are @upgraderelay.

02:02:53   If you would like longer ad-free versions of the show

02:02:55   each and every week, go to getupgradeplus.com.

02:02:58   This week, we're gonna talk about podcast transcriptions

02:03:01   in 17.4 and how that makes us feel.

02:03:05   Thanks to our sponsors for this week's episode.

02:03:07   Thank you for listening.

02:03:10   Until next time, say goodbye, Jason Snow.

02:03:13   - Once more into the breach, Mike.

02:03:15   Once more, here we go.

02:03:17   (upbeat music)

02:03:20   (upbeat music)

02:03:22   (upbeat music)