498: Leap the Uncanny Valley


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:08   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade episode 498 for February 5th, 2024.

00:00:16   This episode is brought to you by Fitbud, ExpressVPN and Squarespace.

00:00:21   My name is Mike Hurley, I am currently in New York City.

00:00:24   I'm joined by Jason Snell, but we are both in a brand new era.

00:00:28   Hi, Jason Snell.

00:00:28   We are. Am I talking to you or your digital persona right now?

00:00:33   Who could tell? We're in our vision era now, Jason.

00:00:36   That's the vision era, that's right. 498 onward. The vision era.

00:00:41   But just because we're in a new era, things still stay the same.

00:00:44   Like the Snell Talk question for this week that comes from Mark, who says,

00:00:47   "What is your preferred time of day to record a podcast?"

00:00:53   This is a very interesting question because preferred is a word that...

00:00:59   I mean, when would I prefer to record all my podcasts? I'm not sure.

00:01:04   What I've found is that I record all my podcasts at 9am.

00:01:08   But do you like doing that?

00:01:09   Well, I mean, it gets me up out of bed ready to go for the day.

00:01:13   We do this, we do the Six Colors podcast, I sometimes schedule other podcasts at 9am.

00:01:18   It's not a bad time, I have a lot of collaborators who are further east than me.

00:01:23   I don't know. And the incomparable tends to get recorded in the evening, like six or seven my time.

00:01:31   Which is hard on those east coasters, because it's so late for them.

00:01:37   But, I don't know. I mean, as it turns out, both have their advantages.

00:01:43   I do downstream in the middle of the day, usually it's like a two in the afternoon.

00:01:47   It's actually kind of weird. So the simple answer to the question is 9am Pacific, noon Eastern.

00:01:52   5pm London. When we do upgrade.

00:01:56   Yep. I prefer what I'm doing right now, which is like 12 o'clock in the afternoon.

00:02:00   That's wonderful, but I so rarely get to do it.

00:02:03   Really, I only record at the time I want to record when I'm in America.

00:02:07   When I'm at home, I don't want to record at the time that I record.

00:02:10   But such is life, that is just when it is, and it's fun.

00:02:12   You have all the American collaborators, so you have to record late. That's just how it is.

00:02:16   I sure do.

00:02:17   If you would like to send in a question of your own to help us open a future episode of Upgrades,

00:02:22   just go to upgradefeedback.com and send in a Snell Talk.

00:02:26   Now, of course, we do have a lot to cover today with the Vision Pro,

00:02:32   but we have other things first that we want to do,

00:02:35   and then we can get all high in the sky and talk about the Vision Pro.

00:02:39   The first is some follow up about the Digital Markets Act.

00:02:42   Now, we are going to be talking about this a lot, I still think, over the next few months,

00:02:47   but we had four pieces of feedback at upgradefeedback.com that I wanted to talk about,

00:02:52   maybe to clarify some things we were talking about and to also add some different perspectives.

00:02:55   Scott said, "I appreciate you both covering the DMA news,

00:02:59   but I take issue with one thing that you said.

00:03:02   You went hard about how a 50 cent per user fee is not hard to make up for a proper business model.

00:03:07   I don't disagree, but the bigger issue is now apps must have business models.

00:03:12   I know that you're both business owners, and I am too,

00:03:15   but I also know there are tons of people who want to make their work 100% free on principle,

00:03:20   and now they either can't or hope they don't get popular."

00:03:22   - I'm going to disagree back with Scott.

00:03:25   We were discussing if you accept Apple's terms.

00:03:27   You don't have to accept Apple's terms.

00:03:29   So anybody who has no business model, the way that this works is you don't accept the terms,

00:03:34   and you can stay free in the App Store.

00:03:36   You just can't leave the App Store.

00:03:37   And I believe what we said in the episode.

00:03:39   So again, I'm going to disagree a little bit with Scott here.

00:03:42   I think one of the points that I made in that episode is that what this does

00:03:48   is effectively keep those apps in the App Store.

00:03:53   If the idea is to have competition, the apps that Scott described is basically,

00:03:57   they don't want to risk exiting the App Store.

00:04:00   Although again, you'd need more than a million users at that point.

00:04:03   But yeah, for an app that just wants to stay free,

00:04:06   you can just stay in the App Store and do it.

00:04:07   The problem with the way it's currently constituted is those apps don't have a choice

00:04:13   if they want to stay risk-free and cost-free.

00:04:17   Again, the cost is after a million, but still, there is a real danger there for a hobby project

00:04:22   that somebody is suddenly going to be on the hook for a big bill.

00:04:25   But don't forget the fact that you can just opt not to take the new terms and stay free

00:04:33   in the App Store.

00:04:34   And because the way it's working right now, or it's proposed to work right now,

00:04:37   that's what all of those apps will do, is just stay in the App Store for free.

00:04:42   Yeah, and I definitely feel that as the two of us I was leaning more on,

00:04:45   I think that the core technology fee is kind of how the App Store should work.

00:04:49   But maybe I didn't cover this fully, but if you have no intention of ever making money

00:04:54   from an application, you shouldn't have to pay it, I feel like.

00:04:57   But if you want to make money from an app, I think it makes sense to have just like a

00:05:00   flat fee that everybody pays rather than a percentage of anything.

00:05:04   But that's just my view, but it's a good view from Scott.

00:05:06   Mark says, "Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't developers pay Apple an annual fee

00:05:11   to be able to put apps in the App Store?

00:05:13   Isn't that how Apple makes money from free apps?"

00:05:16   Yes.

00:05:18   Like it's true, it's a thing, they make money from free apps that way.

00:05:23   $99 if you want to submit it to the App Store, although even then I think if you're like

00:05:29   an education or nonprofit or whatever, that you get it for free or there's a discount

00:05:33   or something.

00:05:33   I mean, does Apple make money at $99 a year off of a free app?

00:05:38   I mean, come on.

00:05:41   But don't forget now in the EU, that $99 pays for your first million installs, right?

00:05:47   Without the core technology fee being applied to it.

00:05:51   So that's what that's paying for now.

00:05:52   I doubt Apple views the $99 a year developer fee, which used to be mandatory and now you

00:05:58   can, I think it's only if you're going to be in the App Store, otherwise it's free,

00:06:02   I want to say.

00:06:02   That's not a big profit center for them.

00:06:07   No.

00:06:09   And I was talking about, I was laughing about the idea of Apple providing refunds as like

00:06:14   a thing that you won't get if you use an app marketplace potentially.

00:06:18   Marlies wrote in to say, "I requested a refund for an in-app purchase last month.

00:06:22   It was fairly easy to do so on the phone and Apple approved it within 24 hours, the day

00:06:26   after the money appeared on my credit card balance.

00:06:29   I remember how this used to be very bothersome, but it's not anymore, at least not in the

00:06:32   EU.

00:06:33   I have no idea if that's a factor, but I suppose it could be."

00:06:35   So I'll say a couple of things.

00:06:36   One, it 100% is a factor, like if it's easier, it's because there, but also Apple do it,

00:06:43   but they don't like really do it.

00:06:45   Like it's not like they're very, "Oh, hey, do you want a refund?"

00:06:49   Like it, I don't believe that the way that Apple pitches the idea of refunds as being

00:06:54   a benefit of the App Store is like as real as it actually is in reality.

00:06:58   Yes, you can get them, but can you?

00:07:03   And Alexei writes in to say, "I had some thoughts on the quote, we were saying, why is the 15

00:07:08   or 30% still a thing?

00:07:09   Like why does Apple still get a commission?

00:07:11   It's worth mentioning all the regional tax and other regulations that Apple takes care

00:07:15   of for developers.

00:07:16   The complexity of accounting, if your app is distributed in worldwide markets, is enough

00:07:21   by itself for me to find value in what Apple provides."

00:07:23   So this is a good point, but Apple's not the only company that could provide this service.

00:07:30   They just do.

00:07:31   And so other companies do and can provide this kind of stuff.

00:07:35   Like I think Stripe do a lot of this stuff.

00:07:36   I think Stripe does it, yeah.

00:07:38   And they don't take 30%.

00:07:39   So yes, they do a lot of things for you, but they take a much higher percentage than a

00:07:47   competing company would.

00:07:48   And ultimately this is about competition.

00:07:50   One of the reasons the 15, 30% is still a thing is that Apple has no competition.

00:07:55   Apple has made it that they are the only game in town for this up to now.

00:07:59   And they're still setting a bunch of rules.

00:08:02   And that I think is one of the big reasons that it's still a thing is just that there's

00:08:07   no, yes, I don't think we ever are saying like Apple doesn't do anything but pass along

00:08:11   the credit card fee, right?

00:08:12   Like they host everything, they do marketing, they have a whole app store marketing team,

00:08:17   editorial team.

00:08:19   They do all sorts of stuff that they spend money on for the app store.

00:08:23   It is not zero.

00:08:25   But I do think it's very much debatable if 30% off of an in-app purchase of a game that

00:08:31   somebody is playing is really earned by what Apple provides or not.

00:08:36   And we can't tell because there's no competition.

00:08:38   Nope.

00:08:39   So that's the DMA for today.

00:08:41   We'll come back to the DMA again.

00:08:43   DMA today.

00:08:44   DMA today.

00:08:45   Let's not make that a segment.

00:08:46   No, let's do it.

00:08:47   Come on.

00:08:48   DMA today.

00:08:49   DMA today.

00:08:50   It comes on after snow talk, right?

00:08:52   Good morning.

00:08:53   Yeah, that's right.

00:08:53   All right.

00:08:54   All right, Mike, how'd you do?

00:08:55   This week, how you feeling?

00:08:56   All right, well, let's get to the DMA news.

00:08:59   I have just renamed this chapter in my document to DMA today.

00:09:02   DMA today.

00:09:04   All right, get that alert JD.

00:09:07   It's time for some custom DMA today art.

00:09:10   Looks like the today show has got a little rainbow.

00:09:12   We'll see about that.

00:09:13   A EU flag.

00:09:14   Jason, I ticked off a bucket list item a couple of days ago.

00:09:19   Oh man.

00:09:20   This is like, okay, what was the most exciting thing about your Friday?

00:09:24   Was it getting the Apple Vision Pro or something else?

00:09:29   I met Tim Cook.

00:09:30   It was pretty awesome.

00:09:33   It was pretty awesome.

00:09:35   So I'm in New York right now.

00:09:36   That's where I went for my apps to get the Vision Pro.

00:09:41   And I did the Fifth Avenue store because I thought it would be the one that would have

00:09:47   the most stock when I was trying to buy.

00:09:49   Yeah, why not?

00:09:50   But also I thought that it would be a cool experience to see, right?

00:09:56   That like it would be very big and vibrant and a lot going on, which is definitely the

00:09:59   case.

00:10:00   It was amazing in there.

00:10:01   Plus that was the store where they put up the big vision like outline, right?

00:10:05   Like that was the sort of Apple chose to dress up.

00:10:07   And when I got to the store, I came down the stairs and I saw Greg Joswiak just standing

00:10:15   there talking to a few people.

00:10:17   Jos.

00:10:17   And then I saw probably a group of about 150 people in a huddle.

00:10:23   And I was like, Tim's here.

00:10:25   And he was.

00:10:25   I went into the store.

00:10:28   I did my whole thing and was kind of like hanging around talking to some friends who

00:10:32   were there too.

00:10:32   So a wonderful friend and contact to Apple PR said to me, would you like to meet Tim?

00:10:38   Which I was like, okay.

00:10:43   Like it was a very nerve wracking thing for me because I didn't really know what to do.

00:10:49   Like, what do you say to him?

00:10:52   Right.

00:10:53   In an environment like that.

00:10:54   So I was pulled through this huddle of people and I was standing there and they said to

00:11:00   me, can you just hold on for one moment?

00:11:02   I was like, yep.

00:11:02   And then Neil Patrick Harris comes up and he starts having a conversation.

00:11:07   I'm standing in front of Tim Cook and Neil Patrick Harris having a conversation about

00:11:11   the Vision Pro and it was just one of these things that I was like, what is happening?

00:11:18   Right.

00:11:18   You know, I felt like an out of body experience.

00:11:20   It was like, what is actually happening right now?

00:11:23   This is very peculiar.

00:11:24   And so I waited for a moment.

00:11:29   They were very nice.

00:11:29   And so I didn't have anything planned.

00:11:32   I didn't know what to say.

00:11:33   And so I just said to Tim, like, what an amazing day.

00:11:37   Like, this is super cool.

00:11:39   Like, I'm really excited.

00:11:40   And the, you know, and he was like, you know, and he was saying like, yeah, we're really

00:11:44   excited about this too.

00:11:45   Like, it's such an amazing product.

00:11:46   And I was like, this store is incredible because it looks so great and people are so excited.

00:11:49   And he was like, oh, this is like the perfect place to do something as we love it.

00:11:53   I then said something else that I don't remember.

00:11:55   Like, I just don't remember what happened after that.

00:11:57   We were talking for like a minute and then I asked if we could take a selfie, which he

00:12:01   was like so good at.

00:12:02   It's like, yeah, of course.

00:12:02   And took a selfie, took a bunch of pictures.

00:12:04   I said, thank you.

00:12:05   I shook his hand twice, which is kind of cool.

00:12:07   And then I just ran off into the night.

00:12:10   And then I went and just, then I went and chatted to Jaws.

00:12:13   And like, with Jaws, I was like, oh, I'm Mike, I work with Jason.

00:12:16   He's like, oh, we love Jason.

00:12:18   I was like, me too.

00:12:19   He's the best.

00:12:19   And we were just chatting a bit.

00:12:20   And so Jaws says hi.

00:12:21   Thank you.

00:12:23   Yeah, I love Jaws.

00:12:23   Jaws goes back a million years.

00:12:25   Like everybody knows him now.

00:12:26   He's in the videos.

00:12:26   He's dark.

00:12:27   He's dark iPhone man, right?

00:12:29   He's the night iPhone.

00:12:30   He's the Batman of the iPhone.

00:12:32   But like, he was like a PowerBook product manager back when I was a very junior editor.

00:12:39   He's been doing it forever.

00:12:41   Well, that's really great.

00:12:44   I have never met Tim Cook, although I have been in the scrum by Tim Cook, but you know,

00:12:49   it's also, I'm doing my job and, and also, no PR people have said, would you like to

00:12:54   meet Tim?

00:12:55   So I haven't had that conversation yet, but that's great.

00:12:58   It's possible that the thing that you blurted out that you don't remember was something

00:13:01   like, oh, you put my podcast art back on the keynote.

00:13:05   This is my regret.

00:13:07   If I would have thought I would have had that picture to show him, like that's, that's

00:13:11   my only regret of it.

00:13:12   But also like, I don't like, you know, it's one of those things like, really what he would

00:13:16   have said.

00:13:16   It's like, oh, that's cool.

00:13:17   And also I didn't really want to get into who I am with Tim Cook.

00:13:23   Like with Jaws it's a different thing, right?

00:13:26   Because I know like you had just spoken to Jaws, right?

00:13:30   Like two weeks ago.

00:13:32   And so like we had that connection and if it was like someone like Phil Schiller, I

00:13:35   would do a very similar thing.

00:13:37   But like, I know that no one I know knows Tim.

00:13:40   Like, you know what I mean?

00:13:41   It's like, we don't even have that level.

00:13:43   And like, there's many layers between you and...

00:13:46   But let me tell you, like, I've been watching the West Wing.

00:13:49   I choose, whenever I fly, I choose like a show that I work through and I've been working

00:13:52   through the West Wing and it looked like the president.

00:13:55   Like in the sense of like, there were people handling people around him.

00:13:59   Like I said, the scrum is real.

00:14:01   It was madness.

00:14:02   The scrum is real.

00:14:03   They're the handlers and the kind of like perimeter people.

00:14:06   There's the PR.

00:14:07   They're not even PR.

00:14:08   You got led there by a PR person, but he has executive relations, which is a different

00:14:14   thing.

00:14:14   And then, and that's a whole structure.

00:14:17   By the way, you did it exactly right.

00:14:18   You are a pro at this.

00:14:19   Because whenever I have been brought into an awkward situation where I'm talking to a senior

00:14:24   Apple executive, especially when it's usually around a product launch, what do you say to

00:14:30   that person?

00:14:31   And I always say, congratulations, it's a big day.

00:14:33   I know you guys have worked really hard on this, right?

00:14:35   Like for me, that is the generic answer because it's always true, right?

00:14:38   Like I ran into Phil Schiller after I was at an event with Phil Schiller after WWDC one

00:14:44   year on day one.

00:14:45   And he's got a beer and I got a beer and we're standing outside in San Jose.

00:14:49   And I said, Phil, congratulations, good to see you.

00:14:51   And I mean, I've been in meetings with Phil and talked to Phil going back again a long

00:14:56   time now, early days of OS 10 kind of time.

00:14:58   And he vaguely knows who I am, I think.

00:15:00   And I said, congratulations on your big product launch.

00:15:04   'Cause I know that one, it's a huge effort to do any product launch event.

00:15:09   And two, what else am I gonna say to them?

00:15:11   Right?

00:15:11   Like, I'm not gonna say like, hey, Phil, I have opinions about your product launch.

00:15:15   No.

00:15:15   - Or I could just be like, hey, Tim, that core technology fee, you know what I mean?

00:15:20   Like, what are you gonna do?

00:15:21   Really?

00:15:21   - Yeah, yeah, exactly.

00:15:25   That's the last thing.

00:15:25   Although you could have said, I loved all the color that you added to the analyst.

00:15:30   Call yesterday.

00:15:31   You could have said that.

00:15:32   - I could have said that.

00:15:33   - What's Wumsie Bohan really like?

00:15:36   - How's AI?

00:15:39   But you know, I'm happy you fought the way.

00:15:42   'Cause to me, it's just like, look, I'm just gonna be in this moment.

00:15:44   I'm a human talking to another human.

00:15:46   Like that's all I am.

00:15:47   And he was so gracious, so lovely.

00:15:51   - He's a famous person.

00:15:52   - Yeah.

00:15:52   - Famous person, doesn't owe you any time.

00:15:55   - No.

00:15:55   - Kind of generous to have the time.

00:15:58   He's there for work.

00:15:59   But I feel like it's not like you ran into him on the street

00:16:02   where you might even be like, I'm just not gonna say anything

00:16:04   'cause he's walking his dog or whatever.

00:16:06   But yeah, it's a little interaction with essentially a famous person

00:16:11   who's so far up in the chain and is at a corporate event.

00:16:15   What are you even gonna say?

00:16:17   It's more like, you got to meet him and he got to meet you.

00:16:20   And that sort of was the whole point of the thing, was that.

00:16:23   - And I was happy.

00:16:24   I'm so, so happy because I'd never do this on my own.

00:16:27   I would never walk up to him.

00:16:28   I would never ever do that.

00:16:29   - Fortunately, we know PR people who are fundamentally extroverts.

00:16:33   - Like years ago, I was at an Apple store and Johnny Ive was there.

00:16:37   Do you remember that?

00:16:37   - Yeah.

00:16:39   - And I just left him alone.

00:16:40   It's like, I'm not gonna go anywhere.

00:16:41   - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:16:42   - But this was a thing that was arranged.

00:16:44   And I'm so thankful for the person that did it

00:16:46   'cause it was like, wow, so amazing.

00:16:48   Just like for me, I really wanted to come here and pick up the thing

00:16:51   'cause I wanted to have it as soon as possible.

00:16:53   But this is just another check in the box of like,

00:16:55   was it a good idea for me to come to New York to get the Vision Pro

00:16:59   rather than trying to get it shipped to me?

00:17:00   And yeah, the answer is, yeah, it was pretty great.

00:17:03   - Yeah, yeah, I think so, bonus.

00:17:05   - Last thing before we get to Vision Pro,

00:17:08   you mentioned the analyst call.

00:17:10   It's money, money, money, money, money, money time.

00:17:11   - Money, money, money, money quickly.

00:17:13   - And we must talk about it.

00:17:14   - Kaching quickly.

00:17:15   - So I'm gonna go through this.

00:17:16   Overall revenue for Q1 2024 was up 2% year over year.

00:17:21   iPhone was up 6% year over year.

00:17:23   The Mac was up 1% year over year, breaking a four quarter streak

00:17:27   where it's been down, down, down, down in comparison.

00:17:30   So that's great.

00:17:30   iPad is down 25% year over year.

00:17:34   - Just to stop you on the iPad,

00:17:37   7 billion in revenue down 25% year over year.

00:17:40   All I have to say is actually maybe not that bad for literally every product

00:17:45   that was bought with that $7 billion is at least 10 months old, if not older.

00:17:50   - This is the one to me.

00:17:51   - Maybe it's not so bad.

00:17:52   - I've been seeing people talk about this online,

00:17:54   being like, "Oh, look at these iPad numbers."

00:17:55   That is, as you say, it's incredible.

00:17:57   They didn't release a new one.

00:17:59   - $7 billion in stale iPads.

00:18:01   - This is the first holiday quarter, right?

00:18:05   Or like Q1 and the same with the holiday.

00:18:08   Where Apple has had an iPad, no iPad, no new iPad for sale

00:18:13   in its entire product history.

00:18:15   And so the fact that they're only a quarter down is kind of,

00:18:17   I think actually shows the power of the iPad as a gift

00:18:20   that still so many people bought one, even though there wasn't a new one.

00:18:23   There were fewer upgrades, right?

00:18:27   Like these were mostly, I expect, new or upgrading a really old iPad.

00:18:31   It's not like some people who upgrade every year or whatever,

00:18:34   because there was nothing to upgrade to.

00:18:35   - That's a good point.

00:18:36   It shows you the power of the product cycle

00:18:38   that we think in a year over year way.

00:18:40   And people do hold, right?

00:18:42   Like how should I put this?

00:18:44   A new product motivates buyers, right?

00:18:48   Like a new product, you're like, "Oh, I'm going to get the new thing."

00:18:50   But there is, in the background, there is a whole huge other chunk of the market

00:18:55   that doesn't pay attention to new products at all.

00:18:57   And they're all just about the cycle.

00:18:59   Or some combination, right?

00:19:01   Where it's like, it's got to be long in the tooth

00:19:03   and they've probably got to be prompted.

00:19:05   But when you look at the $7 billion, well, they weren't prompted, right?

00:19:09   There's been no iPad news in a year.

00:19:11   So this is all product cycle.

00:19:14   This is all people who are like,

00:19:16   "I would like to get either an iPad for the first time

00:19:19   or a new iPad to replace this old iPad."

00:19:22   And again, I'm not trying to make light of the fact

00:19:25   that it's 25% down year over year.

00:19:27   They had a very good holiday quarter last year.

00:19:29   It was their best quarter ever.

00:19:30   So there's a reason that they were not going to ever hit that number.

00:19:33   But still, $7 billion is not terrible for a product line

00:19:37   that is completely stale.

00:19:38   Just that's my iPad note.

00:19:40   Wearables are down 11% year over year.

00:19:43   Woof.

00:19:44   I don't think Vision Pro is going to help this.

00:19:46   Yeah, I don't know what's going on.

00:19:48   I think the Apple Watch and AirPods are just kind of stale right now.

00:19:53   I think that's what's going on there.

00:19:54   What time period does this quarter run over?

00:19:58   Like these results?

00:19:59   This is October through December, the end of December.

00:20:02   It's the last three months of the year.

00:20:04   Do you think there's any possibility that part of that is like a chilling effect of the Apple Watch?

00:20:09   That people weren't buying them because of the Massimo thing?

00:20:11   It's possible?

00:20:12   Because of the Massimo?

00:20:13   I guess it's possible.

00:20:14   I doubt it really had a huge impact, but I guess it's possible.

00:20:17   I don't think it would be 11%, right?

00:20:19   But like maybe it's something.

00:20:19   No, no.

00:20:20   I think it's more that the Ultra 2 is just the Ultra again.

00:20:24   The Series 8 or whatever, or Series 9 is just the...

00:20:26   I think the Apple Watch feels kind of warmed over,

00:20:30   which means that not that there isn't a buying cycle,

00:20:32   but a lot of people bought a lot of Apple Watches in the last five years.

00:20:35   So are they really going to update those,

00:20:37   especially when the trajectory isn't that much?

00:20:39   And then AirPods Pro similarly, or AirPods in general,

00:20:42   that line has not really given Apple...

00:20:44   Apple hasn't given anybody a reason to upgrade.

00:20:46   And then let's not even talk about...

00:20:49   Home is also part of this category.

00:20:51   And Home is basically like an empty wasteland for Apple too.

00:20:56   So my quick response here is to look at wearables, home and accessories and say,

00:21:01   "This is like me writing on the top of their paper, like, 'See me after class.'"

00:21:07   This needs more attention to this category.

00:21:10   This category feels lonely.

00:21:12   Now I know Vision Pro is going to be in it,

00:21:13   but again, how much impact can Vision Pro make,

00:21:16   even if they per quarter...

00:21:18   You can make a little bit of an impact,

00:21:20   but it's going to be less than a billion dollars.

00:21:22   It is not going to dramatically move a category that was $12 billion.

00:21:26   Not in the near term anyway.

00:21:29   - No.

00:21:29   And I think it says that the service is up 11% year over year, which fine.

00:21:34   We expect services.

00:21:35   - Yeah.

00:21:36   And it's not a seasonal category.

00:21:37   I took the little black four quarter rolling average line off of this,

00:21:42   based on some feedback last time when somebody pointed out to me,

00:21:45   "You know, it's not seasonal."

00:21:48   It's like, "You're right.

00:21:49   It's not.

00:21:50   I don't need to smooth that out.

00:21:51   It's a pretty smooth chart already."

00:21:53   - It's just the four quarter rolling average is just a line going up and to the right.

00:21:57   - It kind of just chasing...

00:21:58   It just chases the bars.

00:22:00   They go up together.

00:22:01   It's not that interesting.

00:22:02   - Two interesting tidbits.

00:22:05   I'll start with maybe the least interesting one to us,

00:22:08   which is sales in China specifically fell by 15%

00:22:12   and Luca Maestri stated that revenue will decline in the next quarter

00:22:16   by they're expecting about 5 billion year over year.

00:22:18   So it would be less than Q2.

00:22:21   They state that it's kind of...

00:22:23   I put this word in.

00:22:24   A tough compare due to last year

00:22:26   because there was some pent up iPhone demand

00:22:28   and it's actually going to be more in line with Q2 '22 than Q2 '23.

00:22:33   - I think that's the message that they're getting out there,

00:22:37   which is basically like Apple had some good times

00:22:40   like a year plus ago and then they're not going to match.

00:22:45   They're going to be more like a year before.

00:22:47   Look, this is where Apple is right now.

00:22:49   They set all those records for all those quarters.

00:22:52   The problem is the bar is set so high

00:22:54   and they're going to come off of it a little bit.

00:22:56   And if you're an analyst or an investor who wants to see growth,

00:22:59   you're not going to get it really.

00:23:01   But they keep making them profits and spending a lot of money on...

00:23:06   Not only do they boost the stock price with buyback

00:23:10   because of all those profits and dividends,

00:23:12   but also they're investing in new categories

00:23:16   like Vision Pro, maybe like a car at some point.

00:23:18   And they've got a story to tell,

00:23:21   but it's going to be down next quarter.

00:23:24   The guidance is down.

00:23:25   - And then the last thing is Tim stated

00:23:30   there will be more to come later this year on AI.

00:23:33   - Oh, man.

00:23:33   Yeah, I think Apple is so insecure

00:23:36   about being viewed as being behind on AI.

00:23:40   Even though, as we've said here,

00:23:41   they're behind on parts of AI, right?

00:23:44   Like they have actually done a lot with the neural engine.

00:23:47   They built it into their chips for a long time.

00:23:49   They've used ML modeling and lots of different features.

00:23:52   But what they miss the boat on is generative AI

00:23:56   and large language models.

00:23:57   And those are the ones that have captured the world's attention

00:24:01   and they're behind on them.

00:24:02   And so remember, the analyst call is an hour long exercise

00:24:08   in financial industry people trying to bamboozle Tim Cook

00:24:13   into secretly revealing things about future products.

00:24:17   And it is hilarious because it never works.

00:24:19   And they mostly learn, but then every now and then,

00:24:21   one of them flies a little too close to the sun

00:24:24   and gets to be smacked down again.

00:24:26   And there's much laughter

00:24:27   and where they try to reword it in a clever way.

00:24:29   And this in his prepared statement, Tim Cook said,

00:24:35   "As we look ahead, we will continue to invest in technologies

00:24:38   that will shape the future.

00:24:39   This includes artificial intelligence,

00:24:41   where we continue to spend a tremendous amount of time

00:24:44   and effort, and we're excited to share the details

00:24:46   of our ongoing work in that space later this year."

00:24:50   It's a product tease from Tim Cook,

00:24:53   scripted in the analyst call.

00:24:55   That doesn't happen that often.

00:24:56   He does the little nod like, oh, AR is an area of interest

00:24:59   or the wrist is an area of interest,

00:25:01   but here is like, stay tuned for AI, wink.

00:25:04   - I think this made sense.

00:25:06   I think this is a good idea.

00:25:08   Like, it's not really saying anything,

00:25:10   but what you're saying is like, hey, at this time--

00:25:13   - But don't stonewall them, right?

00:25:14   Like the last, it doesn't serve Apple for you to be like,

00:25:17   "Mm-mm, we're not," everybody's like,

00:25:18   "AI, please, Apple, are you behind our head?

00:25:20   We don't know."

00:25:21   They're like, "We won't tell you until June, ha ha ha."

00:25:23   And all it does is hurt them.

00:25:25   So they're like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, we're on it.

00:25:27   Watch, literally watch this space."

00:25:30   - Well, 'cause if you think about Wall Street, right?

00:25:32   Like, they look at Meta, right?

00:25:35   Meta invested all that money, changed the name

00:25:37   of their company 'cause of the Metaverse and their headsets,

00:25:39   and then they moved on to AI.

00:25:40   And now Apple's just released a headset.

00:25:42   I think like, if they don't say we're working on AI,

00:25:46   there could be a perception that they are,

00:25:47   quote unquote, like behind the curve, right?

00:25:50   - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:25:51   - If all of technology is moving to AI now,

00:25:53   they wanna kind of say, "We're doing that too,"

00:25:56   as well as this other thing that we're up to.

00:25:58   So I think it was a good, I think it was good to do.

00:26:00   - Yeah, I also liked, and this is always one of the things

00:26:02   I actually like the best from these analyst calls,

00:26:05   is that you get to hear Apple, like you and I

00:26:09   and all of our colleagues, like we analyze Apple,

00:26:11   we learn their behavior, we explain to people,

00:26:14   like you gotta understand about Apple,

00:26:15   especially in our, I would say in our external,

00:26:17   like actual lives, people are like,

00:26:19   "What's Apple doing with this?"

00:26:20   And you're like, "Okay, let me tell you how Apple works."

00:26:21   Right?

00:26:22   But it is refreshing, and also I would say affirming,

00:26:27   to have an Apple executive state clearly the thing

00:26:34   that you have been trying to interpret from their behavior.

00:26:37   Every now and then they just say it,

00:26:39   and you're like, "There it is."

00:26:40   And so what Tim Cook said was,

00:26:42   "Our MO has always been to do work

00:26:46   and then talk about work and not get out

00:26:49   in front of ourselves."

00:26:50   Like, that's it.

00:26:52   He says, "But we got things we're excited about

00:26:54   that we'll talk about later this year."

00:26:55   So then he kind of goes back away from it a little bit,

00:26:58   but like he says it right there,

00:26:59   he's like, "Look, you gotta understand,

00:27:00   we don't pre-announce things."

00:27:03   We do the work, and then we talk about the work.

00:27:06   And that has been true of Apple since Steve Jobs came back.

00:27:10   But he wants to say, "Yeah, so I know,

00:27:13   I just want to reassure you, we're doing it,

00:27:15   but we're not going to talk about it."

00:27:16   And I like that.

00:27:17   I think that's, again, I just enjoy it

00:27:20   when they say the thing that we've all been thinking

00:27:22   or talking about, and like, "I think Apple works this way."

00:27:25   And then Apple says, "Let me tell you."

00:27:26   Tim Cook just stands up on a call and goes,

00:27:30   "This is how we do it."

00:27:30   We're like, "Yeah, that's it.

00:27:32   I told you."

00:27:33   It's good to hear from your good friend.

00:27:36   - My good friend, my new buddy.

00:27:37   - He had a meeting with Mike in his future.

00:27:39   Also, somebody asked what product the Vision Pro

00:27:45   was going to be the most like,

00:27:45   what previous Apple product launch it was going to be most like.

00:27:48   And Tim gave the most Tim answer

00:27:49   because he basically said he loves all his children equally.

00:27:51   He's like, "Every product has its own journey,

00:27:54   which they should put on a T-shirt.

00:27:55   Each product has its own journey."

00:27:58   Yeah, you know, little Jimmy,

00:28:00   he's not like his big sister and that's okay.

00:28:05   He's going to have his own little journey

00:28:07   and we'll see what happens,

00:28:09   but we're not going to get ahead of ourselves.

00:28:11   We're going to do the work and talk about it later.

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00:30:43   So now is the time.

00:30:46   We need to give our impressions of our first four days of the Apple Vision Pro.

00:30:52   And I think, Jason, I'm going to do the thing.

00:30:54   I think I'm going to put it on for this segment.

00:30:56   You're going to put it on?

00:30:59   I think so.

00:30:59   I think I'm going to do this segment wearing the Vision Pro.

00:31:03   So give me one second while I take off my headphones and strap in.

00:31:08   Okay.

00:31:09   Have you done that all? Have you done any podcasts of it on yet?

00:31:12   No. No, I haven't.

00:31:15   All right. So I've taken off my AirPods Max, because I'm going full strength here.

00:31:20   AirPods Max and Vision Pro.

00:31:22   Take off my glasses, because I got my prescription.

00:31:29   All right.

00:31:30   I'm back with you.

00:31:33   All right.

00:31:36   And now, okay.

00:31:37   Now I have my show notes in front of me and I'm looking out at Haleakala right now.

00:31:44   Oh.

00:31:45   Yeah.

00:31:48   Well, I mean, you're in a hotel room. That's not that exciting.

00:31:51   All right. I'm in. I'm in as well.

00:31:54   Yes. Let's do it. Let's go.

00:31:56   All right.

00:31:56   Where am I? I'm at Joshua Tree.

00:31:59   Oh, is that your favorite?

00:32:00   Uh, I think so. It's got pretty close.

00:32:03   I like Haleakala.

00:32:04   It's California.

00:32:04   I like looking out on the mountain and I find it to be-

00:32:06   Haleakala is great. I've been there. I've actually been to where that picture is from.

00:32:09   Yeah. Of course.

00:32:11   Yeah.

00:32:11   All right. Put my Mac over there. I got my show notes in front of me.

00:32:16   So I wanted to kind of just say to start, like, I am finding talking about this product to be

00:32:25   difficult because it feels so monumental and so huge.

00:32:33   And even just using it is like sensory overload.

00:32:37   Like I find myself wanting to do something. I'm like, oh, I'll go check this thing out.

00:32:41   And then I get lost because I get excited about trying something else.

00:32:45   Like, I feel like I knew this anyway, but it's going to take more than four days of

00:32:51   using this thing to fully form all my opinions about it. Right. Would you agree?

00:32:56   Yes, I would agree. I feel like it's going to take, um,

00:33:01   a lot of time. And this is, I said this on, I think MacBreak Weekly last week, that

00:33:06   I actually appreciate that Marques Brownlee has done multiple videos over the course of the last

00:33:11   week, because I feel like that is really the ultimate strategy here is that even if you had

00:33:15   this thing for six days and as an advanced reviewer, you're just still processing it.

00:33:20   And I feel the same way. Like I wrote a little FAQ story over the weekend, but the truth is

00:33:25   I'm, I've taken lots of notes and I've done a lot of thinking, but it is, it's an entire platform

00:33:32   with an entire new interaction model. And that's going to take some getting used to.

00:33:37   I guess we should probably start by talking about the comfort of the product, right.

00:33:42   And the hardware itself. What strap have you been using?

00:33:46   Dual strap. Yeah, me too.

00:33:49   Dual strap away here. I tried the solar strap and I like it.

00:33:53   But if you're using it for multiple hours at a time, which I have been,

00:33:57   like I've been using this product for hours and a time, it's been fine.

00:34:04   You need the support of the top strap. And I am disappointed that they did not find a way

00:34:11   to combine the straps because at WWDC, that was what we had. It was the solo knit strap with a

00:34:19   top band to it as well. But that seems like the only place that that ever showed up. And I wish

00:34:24   that there was that option because I like the comfort and the look and the feel of the solo knit

00:34:31   strap. But it just doesn't provide enough support for long periods.

00:34:35   For the record, I've taken it off again now because I think I want to give this my...

00:34:42   I'm still getting used to... I haven't done a podcast with before. I'm not going to do that.

00:34:45   Yet. Yet. Because this is so important and I want to focus and it's sitting on my cheeks.

00:34:53   And it feels a little weird when I talk. I'm going to join you. We tried. We tried our best.

00:34:59   We'll do a special thing at the end where we have digital personas and people can find it probably

00:35:03   on YouTube or something and we'll figure something out. But it is... I feel like this is so important

00:35:09   that we actually need to talk about it while we're not messing around with Vision Pro.

00:35:13   I'm back with you now. I'm back in the real world.

00:35:15   So people who... Close followers of Upgrade. I don't know. In June, we got our demos. And that

00:35:24   was with a solo strap, I think with the strap coming over the top. Anyway, it hurt my face.

00:35:30   It hurt my face. It hurt my forehead. The whole half hour, I was uncomfortable.

00:35:34   And then I was in a demo a couple of weeks ago with a dual strap and it didn't hurt my face. And

00:35:41   I reported that back last week. So I got it out of the box and I put... I had the solo strap was

00:35:49   on it and I put it on my face with the solo strap and it immediately started hurting my forehead.

00:35:53   The same way. And I was like, oh, this is how it hurt in June. You know, like I had forgotten.

00:35:58   I remembered that it hurt, but I had forgotten the details of it. And then the moment that I felt

00:36:01   that I was like, oh, this is it. So I just took it off and put on the dual strap and the dual strap

00:36:07   has been fine. In fact, I used it for like six total hours on Friday and probably close to that

00:36:15   on Saturday. It wasn't really a problem. Wasn't a problem. I just, in general, I am surprised

00:36:21   how long I can use this and feel comfortable compared to other headsets I've tried. And

00:36:27   I think what it's come down to to me is the clarity of the display. I think any problem I've

00:36:32   had with VR headsets in the past has been eye strain and headaches. And I think that has come

00:36:39   from not having clear text. And I will also say I've never used a headset with vision corrected

00:36:47   lenses. And for the first day I didn't have my lenses. And when I put them in the next day,

00:36:53   everything felt really good. But the first day wasn't a problem either, but like things are just

00:36:57   clear. My vision's not that bad. Um, but it was clearer and that was helpful. But I would say that

00:37:03   like, it's definitely more comfortable for me to use this for long stretches of time than any other

00:37:11   product I've tried like this before. Yeah, I think I might agree with that. It's um, they obviously

00:37:16   took a great deal of care with this. Um, and like I said, I just couldn't be more impressed with the

00:37:21   feel on the, on the dual band. The dual band really just solved it for me in a way that,

00:37:29   and it's not that there isn't weight there. Uh, there absolutely is. And you do sort of have to

00:37:33   get used to it, but I was able to settle in and, um, and use it for extended periods of time. And

00:37:40   it wasn't a big deal. Yeah. Every time I put it on, I'm a bit surprised by the weight and then I

00:37:46   get used to it. So it's like, to me, it's like every time I put it on, I'm like, oh, that is

00:37:49   heavier than I remember. Which kind of tells me that how I find it comfortable that over a long

00:37:54   period of time, I just don't even think about it anymore. Yeah. I got that, that top strap adjusted,

00:38:00   right? Because the top strap bearing a lot of the weight really helps get it off of my face. And I

00:38:05   don't mind it so much being kind of like spread out across my whole head, but when it's really

00:38:09   just kind of burrowing in to my face, um, you know, and the pulling from the back in order to

00:38:15   hold it in place, it's just not, not great. So the top strap helps a lot. I would say as well,

00:38:21   I've, uh, I've really come around to the look on this thing. I think it looks cool. I just think

00:38:25   it looks cool. I think it is a cool piece of technology, really interestingly designed.

00:38:29   I actually think it looks good on people. Like I started to come around on this

00:38:35   when the reviews were coming out and seeing reviewers use it. And it's like, oh yeah,

00:38:41   I actually think this thing looks pretty good. I mean, for what it is, I agree. Having a quest

00:38:46   three, the quest three looks dumb. It looks dumber than the quest two. It's got like, so I'll say

00:38:53   this. There's a lot of debate about the idea of eyesight and having your little virtual eyes

00:39:01   peeking through and having the glowing thing on the screen on the front and all that. Worth a

00:39:05   conversation, but I will say this having it be dark in the front instead of it or a screen

00:39:14   instead of it being what meta is, which is sort of like light plastic with sensors. Like it's better.

00:39:22   It feels less alien and feels more like ski goggles than the meta, uh, at least the quest

00:39:29   three, which, so I think it is a better look. Yeah. I think like written the eyesight thing,

00:39:33   it does not look as good as we, as like Apple led us to believe that it was going to look,

00:39:37   but I think it does the job and I think it's fine. Like I've seen my eyes in a mirror.

00:39:42   I've been talking to Adina. She's here with me, right? And when I've been wearing it,

00:39:47   she's tried it on and like I've seen kind of, uh, how it can look without the eyes and stuff.

00:39:52   I actually think it's fine. It does the job of what they're attempting to do. It isn't particularly

00:39:59   impressive, but I still stand by their thinking and would like to see them continue to improve it.

00:40:05   Like the idea that you can very easily indicate to somebody that something is on and it's working

00:40:10   and you're doing something and when they can see you and when you can see them, I think that there

00:40:15   is merit in that idea for looking at a device like this. I do think it makes sense. Just the execution

00:40:22   leaves something to be a bit desired in version one, but it is version one after all.

00:40:29   Yeah. I'm not entirely convinced that there isn't a way to do this that's simpler and

00:40:33   and less costly to indicate presence or absence rather than having a screen with the lenticular

00:40:40   layer and all of that stuff. Like is this, I like, I like the idea, like you said, of

00:40:48   can I see you? Can I not see you? And all that. Not sure you need a whole screen with a rendered

00:40:55   set of eyes to do that, but that'll be the debate on the inside, especially if you could save money

00:41:00   and cut the price. That would be a way you could do that. And the weight and exactly and the power

00:41:05   consumption, the whole and processing time and all of that. But we'll see. I've been seeing a lot of

00:41:11   conversation about the field of view, like when you've actually got the headset on, how much

00:41:15   you're able to see and like the fact that there is kind of this border around it. You've got the

00:41:20   foveated rendering, which can create some fuzziness. What is your impression and what are your feelings

00:41:25   about when you've got the headset on and you're using it, how it looks like just looks like a

00:41:31   little screen that you have in front of you. Right on the inside. Yeah. I will tell you,

00:41:36   I wonder if you felt this way too. My memory of June is that it was a much wider field of view

00:41:43   than it actually is. Yeah. I think I was so blown away by the whole experience in June

00:41:49   that I, thinking back, I was like remembering how amazing it was and not really having that moment

00:41:56   where I kind of look at the field of view and compare it to my regular vision and all that.

00:42:01   Although I wear glasses. So the field of view is actually quite similar to what I see through my

00:42:09   glasses. It's just that there's, I've got peripheral, fuzzy peripheral vision out on the

00:42:15   outside where I don't have that with this. So it's noticeably narrow. I think Marcus Brownlee said

00:42:23   that his number one thing that he would want improved on this is the field of view. And I agree.

00:42:30   I think that it breaks the illusion a little bit, although you get used to it. I don't think it's a

00:42:37   killer. I don't think it's a deal breaker, but yeah, if I were coming up with a constructive

00:42:41   list of things for Apple to work on for version two, finding a way to widen the field of view

00:42:47   would be on the list because it would be a better experience if you could see in the periphery

00:42:54   more than you can. Well, there's like a simple metaphor for it, which is,

00:42:59   look at every device Apple's ever made. All we ever want them to do is make the screen bigger,

00:43:04   right? Like the Apple watch, the iPhone, the Mac. You always want the screen to get bigger and the

00:43:10   bezels to get smaller. This is the same thing. You just want the screen to get bigger and the bezels

00:43:15   to be smaller. Cause that's what it is right now. Like this kind of binocular like effect is

00:43:19   effectively the screen bezel is what it is analogous like. But to me, it doesn't bother me.

00:43:25   I feel like I have such a wide, like, cause the difference with this product to the others is I

00:43:33   can turn my head and get more screen, right? Which I can't do with other things. So yes, exactly.

00:43:39   The screen's there. You just, you just can't see it out of the corner of your eye. And the screen

00:43:42   itself is amazing. Like looking at that screen, I thought to myself, this is, this is, this is why

00:43:52   they, they don't have that many that they're going to be able to make this screen or screens one per

00:43:58   eye is so good. And I know I'm coming from like the quest two and three, but even if you look

00:44:06   through the cameras at the AR kind of stuff, the things around you, especially in the light that

00:44:13   we often live in, cause we don't live in super brightly lit places, regular people don't need

00:44:18   that because their eyes can see, but cameras do. So everything's a little grainy. It's just natural.

00:44:23   That's just sort of how it's going to work with the pass through. It's going to look a little

00:44:26   grainy. Anybody who's had a quest to it's like, Oh, it's in color and you can see objects and it's

00:44:31   not terrible. Yeah. This is all true. But my point here is that the screen is way better than that.

00:44:36   Like I was watching a YouTube video. I was actually watching Marcus Brownlee's latest

00:44:41   video in the vision pro. I'm using that app that, uh, Juno, cause you sell it. Yeah. It's really,

00:44:49   yeah. Christian said like, uh, which is just a YouTube player. It's nothing fancy, but it's nice

00:44:55   cause it's a vision pro app. Like having MKBHD up in front of me in vision pro. I was, I was looking

00:45:04   at his face and like his skin tone and, and totally listening to his content too, but also

00:45:12   just like marveling. It looked so good. And that's so that, and that was that moment. And you'll,

00:45:18   sometimes you look at the 3d movies and stuff and you're like, okay, but like there, we're not used

00:45:24   to looking at 3d movies. So sometimes the novelty of the 3d is there in the immersive videos.

00:45:29   Sometimes the novelty of the immersion gets you with a flat 2d YouTube video. I was able to just

00:45:35   sit there and appreciate this looks great. Like this, the displays are absolutely spectacular.

00:45:44   My moment like that was just looking at photos, not spatial ones, just like photos we have taken

00:45:51   on this trip. I was just flicking through them. I was like, this is the best device I have to look

00:45:56   at my photos on because it's massive. The colors are incredible. And I get that like dark, like it

00:46:03   goes dark around the, like my images that I take on my iPhone look spectacular on this device. And

00:46:10   like for me, it's just like, Oh, this is just an incredible way to look at the images that I've

00:46:14   taken. Like let alone all the things that can do with like panoramas and special, just like standard

00:46:21   photos. Yeah, you're right. The screens are incredible. And like similarly the clarity of text,

00:46:28   I don't understand how they've done it. Like, cause I, you know, we, every device I've used in

00:46:36   this class, text is hard to read. It is. It is so clear. It's not as clear if you're using the

00:46:45   Mac screen sharing, although it's usable, it's quite usable. What I would say, I mean, we'll get,

00:46:52   we'll talk about Mac sharing in a bit, but what I am impressed by is that on native apps and iOS

00:46:58   apps, iPad apps, the text is very clear. It's I'm also surprised because my initial response

00:47:05   to Safari back in June was that I didn't think the text was good enough. And I think that they

00:47:09   must've made some changes because it is good enough now, which is it's that I heard through

00:47:15   the grapevine, somebody who's told me that they're like, it was good to read on, on it. And I thought,

00:47:19   well, that can't be, but I can see it now. Like, I feel like it's unnecessary to use a Vision Pro

00:47:25   just to read a book or something, but you could do it. And the text would look good because the text

00:47:30   really does look very nice. Do you have any different opinions to what we had thought

00:47:37   previously about the eye and hand tracking? One that keeps coming to me, having used the Oculus

00:47:44   Quest is that I have one of those, remember that iMac ad with there's no, there's no step three.

00:47:51   Remember that this is like that where I put on the Vision Pro and there's no step two.

00:47:59   Whereas with the, with the Quest, you can't just put on the headset. You also have to pick up the

00:48:07   hand controllers and put them in your hands. And I know they do hand tracking. It's not very good.

00:48:14   Um, but really you want to just have the controllers. And so while I realize they've

00:48:20   given up some precision by not having controllers and that they should probably at some point support

00:48:28   maybe a third party precision controller for certain games or something, like I'm actually

00:48:33   really happy that I don't need anything but the headset to use the headset to its fullest.

00:48:41   Yeah. Eye tracking is the key. Like the eye and hand tracking is the key. If this is going to be

00:48:48   a computer, because I want to use a keyboard, I can't use a keyboard. If every time I need to

00:48:54   select part of the interface, I have to pick up a controller to do it. Right. Right. Because then I

00:49:00   can't keep working. I'm like pick up, click, put down, like, and it's different to using say a

00:49:07   mouse or a trackpad in that way. Like the eye tracking is I feel closer to that than trying to

00:49:14   like point at something and click it with a, like with a remote, you know, I, the eye and hand

00:49:20   tracking is fantastic. I was seeing it in using it for the time that we've used it. I mean, I've

00:49:25   noticed it sometimes it just doesn't work the way you want it to. I don't know why, you know, like

00:49:29   I'm looking at a thing and it's not doing it. And the thing right next to it is selected. Like,

00:49:35   come on around the edges. I especially noticed that right. Where I'm like up a little bit high

00:49:40   and I actually have to move my head up. Yep. Which puts it more in the center. And then the tracking

00:49:47   is a little more accurate and then it gets it. So there are those moments where I think, oh,

00:49:51   see around the edges, sometimes you end up just a little bit, like I can't get that little bit more

00:49:56   until I kind of lift up and then it, and then it goes to the next item and hand tracking.

00:50:00   Similarly, it's easy, especially if you're not paying attention to where your hand is.

00:50:04   Like I have that too, where sometimes I'm like, I'm sitting and I'm doing the hand gestures and

00:50:10   it's all working fine. And then I look to my left and I do the hand gesture and it stops working.

00:50:15   The reason is my hand hasn't moved, but the Vision Pro has moved and now I can't see my hand.

00:50:20   And, and some of that is just body language and learning, learning the language of it,

00:50:25   but it is noticing like, oh, you can't, you can't have your hand covered up. You can't

00:50:31   have your hand all the way over to the right while you're looking all the way to the left,

00:50:35   because it's not going to be able to pick it up and just kind of keeping that, you don't have to

00:50:38   have it right in front of your face, but you do need to have it somewhere where it's visible. And

00:50:42   I have to remind myself of that from time to time. Have you had any issues with the hardware? Like,

00:50:49   has it let you down in any, any spot? So the surprising issue that I've had,

00:50:55   and I don't even know enough, I'm kind of hopeful that they will get feedback from their logs

00:51:00   as people use this and they will improve this. Cause I don't know how to report,

00:51:05   I guess I could file out feedback about it. I don't know. The big hardware issue I've had is

00:51:10   Optic ID. So when I set it up the first time, it said, okay, look at this thing for Optic ID.

00:51:18   And then it, and it's got a little animation and it goes doodle doodle loop, doodle doodle loop.

00:51:22   It didn't work. Try again. Doodle doodle loop, doodle doodle loop. It didn't work like 10 times.

00:51:29   So I'm like, okay, I don't really want to enter a six digit passcode. I'll do that. I continued

00:51:33   with the thing. I ran the software update on it to go to 1.0.2 or whatever. Hilarious. We'll get to

00:51:40   it, but like hilarious how all of your Apple skills just translate to this thing. Open the

00:51:45   settings app, go to software update. Oh, there is a software update. Let's run that. Let's reboot

00:51:50   our face. And then we'll see what happens next. Set up Optic ID on the new version. Still didn't

00:51:57   do it. Eventually I like repositioned the headset and I opened my eyes and what I would describe as

00:52:04   like a glare, like, I'm glaring at you. And I got it to train. And, but even then,

00:52:12   a lot of times Optic ID fails for me, especially when I first put the device on. And I feel like I

00:52:20   then have to kind of like move it around a little bit and again, do the little glare. And eventually

00:52:25   I can get it to recognize me with Optic ID. But my experience with Optic ID is that it was hard

00:52:30   to train and not consistent. And so I'm a little frustrated by that. When you set it up the first

00:52:37   time, did you have your lenses? Yes. Yeah, see, because I set mine up without my lenses

00:52:42   and then I've really struggled to set it up because you can do a second. Yeah, because

00:52:49   you're supposed to, it's supposed to change how it does Optic ID based on your lens. Different

00:52:54   lenses have different Optic ID. And it was failing like time after time to actually set that up.

00:52:59   Then I've rebooted it and it worked. I don't know why. But yeah, I was having to, this is obviously

00:53:05   a very new way of them doing this stuff. And I wonder if there's like a thing with your eyes that

00:53:10   it's tripping up on. So my eyes are unusual and I wonder if they haven't, and this is why I don't

00:53:16   know what to do other than talk about it and maybe file a feedback about it. But like one of my

00:53:20   eyelids droops, one of my pupils is bigger than the other one most of the time. So I have unusual eye

00:53:27   things. And I wonder if some of my unusual eye things are what are making Optic ID go like,

00:53:33   Oh, I don't know. I don't know who this guy is. I don't know. I can't, or even I can't train on

00:53:38   this guy, which is weird. So I hope that this gets better because I would like it to be more reliable

00:53:43   for me. When it works, it's great. When it works, it's really nice to not do anything. And it's like,

00:53:50   Oh, one password needs to enter a password here. Done. You just don't do anything. Just have your

00:53:58   eyes with you. And I do usually. So that part is great. It's just that that initial, it's usually

00:54:04   when I put it on because then it's positioned kind of wrong and maybe it's pushing on my eyes

00:54:10   a little differently and my eyelids and whatever else. And it's getting in a weird state. And then

00:54:14   I have to kind of struggle with it to get it to unlock. And then usually once I get to that point,

00:54:19   it's good after that. Yeah. This is, um, I'm pleased that it works for you once you get it

00:54:28   working. Cause if it doesn't, if it didn't work, that would be really awkward. It's unfun to I type

00:54:36   a, uh, uh, access code every time. Yeah. Not fun. You talk about personas pretty like for a bit.

00:54:44   Yeah. Let's talk about it. What do you think of the personas? They are simultaneously

00:54:52   impressive and weird. Yep. And I've seen some other reviewers say the same thing, which is

00:55:02   I kind of can't believe that Apple is able to generate a passable digital replica.

00:55:09   It's not perfect by any means. It's not even great. Like they look weird, but

00:55:17   it looks like me in a video game, right? Like it doesn't look like me. It looks like me

00:55:26   in a video game, which is still pretty cool. It's just not me. Right. And so the fact that they can

00:55:38   do that with like a quick scan of your face and they can build a 3d replica of you and your

00:55:44   clothing. Like I think it's amazing technology. It is weird. People, some people are not going to

00:55:50   like it. I will say it is better off than I wouldn't want to not be able to do a FaceTime

00:55:57   or a video call in the vision pro. I'm sure it will get better. I have some criticisms of the

00:56:04   policy, which is that there's no way to use sort of like an alternate character or something.

00:56:09   That's not you as a, like a, for people who are unhappy with their appearance to be able to not

00:56:15   use it. But I'm impressed with the technology. I think it'll get better. I don't love how I,

00:56:22   even my digital personas, I've come around to thinking they're okay. I also took like six of

00:56:31   them. I think you look really good. I think my latest one is the best one. Yeah. You look like

00:56:36   you to me, like genuinely. Like I look at him like, oh, that's Jason. That is the question

00:56:41   is, is do you look like you? I think I do too. I have a particular problem.

00:56:47   In normal conversation, the mouth of my persona does not move. It is a problem. I have no mouth

00:56:56   and I must scream. You do have a mouth. It just doesn't open. It's like you're talking.

00:57:00   Yeah. That's what it looks like. I can get the mouth to open if I open my mouth wide. And I

00:57:08   believed to be the case and have spoken to some people who seem to know some things who agree

00:57:13   beards are problems. Beards are problems. And so I submitted a feedback, which you can do. There's

00:57:24   actually a direct thing in the persona part settings to submit feedback about your persona.

00:57:28   It's a really interesting process where it asks, it shows you, this is a capture of your persona

00:57:35   and then it shows you a photo that the vision pro takes of you while you're doing the capture.

00:57:42   And it says, can we submit both of those? I said, yes. It then asks you a bunch of questions,

00:57:49   which are just like, and this is where I think it kind of falls down a little bit. It's like,

00:57:53   you just tick a bunch of boxes. Like, what do you like? What do you don't like? And it's like a

00:57:56   survey, but you can't communicate to them anything. But because I know how to use it.

00:58:00   My mouth does not move. Exactly. Which I need to tell them, but it doesn't show me that in

00:58:04   the options. But because I know how this works, I then go to the feedback app and I can add some

00:58:09   more text in, which I've done. This is one of those things where they just need more data,

00:58:14   I expect, right? They need to see more people with more types of facial hair to allow them to

00:58:19   understand how to make this work. And so like, this is why this is a beta. This is how I feel

00:58:23   about Optic ID is the same thing actually, which is, and I mean, we can talk about it more later,

00:58:28   but like, one of my main observations in using this for three days is it's a 1.0 OS.

00:58:36   And like, you get in the corners and you run into things where you're like, well, this is just a

00:58:41   bug, right? Like this is obviously they, this is, they had to ship it. And like, I don't know,

00:58:46   maybe it's 30 years of writing about software and 40 years of using software maybe, but like,

00:58:53   you get that spider sense, right? Which is like, oh yeah. It's like, this just,

00:58:59   this got left behind. This got shipped, but they know it's probably, they probably know it's broken

00:59:05   or this got shipped because it worked okay. And they know they need to fix it. And then people

00:59:10   are going to tell them how it's broken. But like, I get that vibe a lot. Not saying that it's super

00:59:14   buggy, but I'm saying that I get those moments where I'm in the corners of the OS and I think,

00:59:19   oh yeah. Okay. Yeah. Like that's just, it's a, it's a bug. It like I do, there are just things

00:59:25   that ha it's a new OS on a new device and like that stuff happens, even if you're working on

00:59:30   it for a decade, like you ship it and there's stuff in it. The persona is they even labeled

00:59:35   it with beta. So they're really like, yes, we know. I just, I'll go back to what I said before,

00:59:40   which is it would be nice if they let you have, if they built some characters that were obviously

00:59:47   not people, real people, but that people could inhabit. I think that that would be good because

00:59:52   not everybody wants to inhabit their, their particular body. And that would be a good thing

00:59:59   for them to do for those people. But, um, I'm sure the personas will get better and they definitely

01:00:04   have to solve the beard problem for sure. For sure. Um, but I will say, look, I was super low

01:00:10   on personas like, because in my WWDC experience, the persona I was talking to broke in a pretty

01:00:17   catastrophic way. I am a persona believer. Like I've had multiple FaceTime calls with people now.

01:00:27   And to me, I think they look great. Like considering what you do, which is, it's so

01:00:34   simple. Like it takes a minute and it generates them in like a minute. I thought it would be like,

01:00:40   come back tomorrow and it will be ready for you or something. And the amount of, when I talk to

01:00:46   people, it's a better experience for me talking to people and the people talking to me. There's

01:00:50   so much expression in the faces and the expressions that the faces make look like my friends. Like,

01:00:56   I've had like four calls now with four different people. And like, you know, most of these calls

01:01:02   have lasted a little while because we're kind of just like using it. Me and you had quite a long

01:01:06   call. And by the end of it, it was just like me and Jason are just hanging out right now.

01:01:10   It really felt that way. I didn't have that same experience because your mouth didn't move.

01:01:14   Yeah, pretty upset. Yes, I agree. So there are a couple of things going on here. One,

01:01:17   it's your actual voice. Two, it looks like you. Three, it does have some facial expressions. Four,

01:01:23   you don't see yourself. You're just with the person. Five, am I up to that now? You can bring

01:01:31   them close and it's like a 3D window into their face, but you can also move them around. It's like

01:01:36   you're moving the camera when they're off to the side. You're looking off to the side. It has this

01:01:40   kind of a spatial skeuomorphism kind of thing going on there. I think there's a lot to be said

01:01:46   for it that I think we talked a lot about the uncanny valley of personas and they are viewed

01:01:52   out of context uncanny. In context, we kind of like leap the uncanny valley a little bit because

01:02:00   of all those other things I listed because you're talking, it's their voice. It looks more or less

01:02:05   like them. It is making real facial expressions. I'm not sure you ever think it's a video, right?

01:02:12   I'm sure that will happen where somebody will call a family member and they won't know that they're

01:02:17   using a persona. I think we're also very critical. It's like looking at Tarkin in Rogue One and

01:02:22   everybody who knows that that's a CGI character and that Peter Cushing died a long time ago.

01:02:27   You look for the flaws, but if you talk to somebody who doesn't know who Peter Cushing is and

01:02:32   just has a recollection of him as being in Star Wars and you see him in Rogue One, those people,

01:02:38   by all accounts, don't notice because they're like, "Oh yeah, it's that guy," and they just move

01:02:43   on. I think that there is some truth in that here too that we're kind of looking for the flaws.

01:02:47   There are flaws, but the added context of the conversation I think makes them, if not go away,

01:02:54   it certainly mitigates them. Yeah, and what I love about the persona calls is you don't see yourself

01:03:02   which I really like because I think that that adds a lot in those videos and then also

01:03:06   in that thought you can look however you want if you're going to have one of these calls with

01:03:13   someone. You don't need to get ready. So I was going to say I do a lot of podcasts

01:03:21   especially, but most of them are audio only. When I do a podcast that's video like our

01:03:29   like Total Party Kill, this one, right, I have to take a shower, but Total Party Kill is a good

01:03:34   example because we play Dungeons and Dragons, we do that on video, and it is a very gender-balanced

01:03:41   podcast. And when I talk to my women friends who are on that podcast, one of the things that always

01:03:49   comes up is the fact that, and I can basically roll out of bed and do a podcast, but socially

01:03:57   they have to put on makeup and make sure that their appearance is acceptable because that is how

01:04:04   society judges women. And this is not a podcast about society, but I will just say this. I believe

01:04:11   the way this works is if you dress up and primp and get a haircut and shave or put on makeup or

01:04:19   whatever you need to do and then make your digital persona, they look like that forever.

01:04:26   I was really surprised that it takes your clothing and uses them.

01:04:31   Yeah, I ended up putting on a t-shirt and a hoodie in my most recent one because I wanted to be like

01:04:36   super on-brand, but I have thought about like tuxedo persona and you can only save one, which is

01:04:43   another problem, right? It would be interesting if you could down the road save different ones

01:04:47   with different clothing or different makeup or whatever you wanted to do. But I have thought like,

01:04:52   "Oh, you could do a shirt and tie persona for your business call and then you don't have to wear a

01:04:57   shirt and tie, but it would be in your persona because my UCSD t-shirt and my navy hoodie are

01:05:04   in my current persona." Yeah. I realized that when I was talking to Steven and he had a Relay FM t-shirt

01:05:09   on, I'm like, "Hang on a minute." Because I just figured it just put you in something like what

01:05:15   me emoji have, right? It's just like generic t-shirt, generic sweatshirt, whatever. Yeah. Look,

01:05:22   I've been totally surprised by this part of the product and I'm actually pretty excited about it

01:05:29   and where it's going to go because as well there's that whole thing they spoke about WWDC spatial

01:05:33   personas. Yeah, that's the missing piece here, right? Which is they're still in a window and I

01:05:40   think what you ultimately want is what you and Grey have talked about on Cortex, which is

01:05:47   ultimately you want to be in the same room with these people you're talking to. And again, we can

01:05:53   talk about what the fidelity is like and they can't map your whole body and all that, so how do you

01:05:58   show that and do they have legs? That was a whole Facebook thing that came up, right? But the one

01:06:05   thing that's missing is they are spatial but they are floating in a little square and you're not

01:06:11   sharing a common space. And those are the two things that I when I look at this that I think are

01:06:15   the immediate things that need to be addressed is I need to be able to share a space with them and

01:06:23   not use SharePlay or iCloud to connect to a document in an app that's shared and then we

01:06:32   each have each other on a window. But literally like a consensual set of items that we see together

01:06:41   which is, you know, right? Like I want to be in the space with them looking at the same object as

01:06:48   them. It sounds like Zoom is working on that too, right? Yeah, well Zoom's got that weird thing

01:06:53   where they like they cut out your background and then put you in a painting or something like that,

01:06:58   right? Like they have that technology so they are working on that. You know, it's going to be Zoom,

01:07:03   like it's probably going to be weird but it's not bad. But like Apple should do that too because that

01:07:08   should be... I appreciate that clearly things like SharePlay, like all that stuff is stuff that is

01:07:14   laying the foundation for what they're going to be able to do with collaboration on and sharing on

01:07:19   this platform. But that's the thing that jumps out to me is I want to be in the same room as the

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01:09:11   show and all of Relay FM. So there's this thing called environments which are basically full or

01:09:18   can be full VR worlds that you can be in. Apple has a selection, some other apps have them too.

01:09:26   What has been your experience of environments so far? I like them. I feel like they're contextual,

01:09:33   right? Like there are moments where I find my surroundings distracting and it's nice to be able

01:09:39   to dial that in. I also had a moment where I like dialed it in halfway. I think using the digital

01:09:43   crown, at the time I thought, well, this is a weird choice of the digital crown to have it be

01:09:47   this. And is dialing in environments, is this going to be a thing or are they going to discard

01:09:52   this and say, okay, we take it back, that's a dumb idea. After having used it for a few days,

01:09:55   I don't think it's a dumb idea. I actually think it's a really smart idea. The idea that you can

01:10:00   reach up physically and say, I want to drop in or out of this virtual environment. By the way,

01:10:06   if you press the digital crown, it drops you out. If you immediately need to go,

01:10:10   you can short circuit this in a few ways. But I like them. I think it is funny that a bunch of

01:10:19   them are just coming soon. So like they shipped with a smaller number of them that they're going

01:10:23   to have. That is so weird to me. There are two, right? And it just says coming soon. It's like,

01:10:31   what is that? Why is that here? You could just not have them. Also other apps supply them.

01:10:38   There should probably be, and maybe this is the first time I've ever said this about VisionOS.

01:10:42   So congratulations VisionOS, you're a real operating system now. There should probably

01:10:47   be an API that allows developers to supply their environments to the system. Because right now,

01:10:58   apps can have environments now, but they're only in those apps. And it leads to some weird

01:11:01   situations where like, if you want to watch a Disney movie in Avengers Tower or at the Disney+

01:11:06   theater, you have to go to the Disney+ app and then play. Because if you are in the TV app and

01:11:12   it says, oh, would you like to resume Avengers Endgame? You can click that, but it doesn't,

01:11:19   it just plays it in the existing environment. And so you end up in these weird things also where

01:11:23   like, hey, I really like the Avengers Tower and would like to work there. You can't, you can only

01:11:29   use it for Disney+. And I feel like you should be able to contribute to the system. And it's obvious

01:11:36   that they will do that. It's coming soon. But I likened it to my little FAQ piece that I wrote,

01:11:41   I think I mentioned this. When I write sometimes and I really need to focus, I put in headphones

01:11:47   and crank up music, even if I'm working by myself in my house and there's nobody else here. And I

01:11:53   could just put it on the speakers. I don't, I put in the headphones and it's isolating and focusing

01:11:58   in a strange way. Something in my brain kind of ticks at that moment. I've already had a couple

01:12:04   of moments where I thought, would I focus a little bit better if I dialed out my surroundings right

01:12:10   now and went to one of these empty spaces that is an environment? And I think maybe, I think maybe.

01:12:17   There were also other times where like, I'm looking at something and I'm in the, and Lauren's

01:12:20   in the other room and she's probably going to come in at some point and tell me that it's time to

01:12:23   start making dinner or whatever. And I want to see her in the doorway. So I'm not going to dial it

01:12:28   in. Right? Like that also is a thing that can happen. So I think they're really nice. They're

01:12:33   high quality. They're like have subtle animations that are really fun. And sound. I want more of

01:12:39   them in the ability for again, developers to build them. Yeah. Subtle sounds, but very nice sounds.

01:12:45   I really, I really do like them even though I only use them some of the time, but I think that's the

01:12:50   whole point of the Digital Crown is you only use it some of the time. I use an amount of environment

01:12:56   the majority of the time that I've been using it. Like I kind of dial it into about 50 or 60%. So

01:13:01   it's mostly just in front of me. Although you are in a hotel room, right? Yeah. It might be different

01:13:05   at home. Maybe. And like, so that is actually been really nice, right? We're like right now,

01:13:09   I kind of wish that I had the headset on because it's nicer to look out over Haleakala than to be

01:13:13   sitting and looking at just the television in my hotel room. Like just this blank screen.

01:13:18   I really like it. And I like the dialing in too, because they haven't done keyboard occlusion,

01:13:25   which they should do. So if you have an external keyboard, Apple should, they can, they know the

01:13:31   keyboards there because they detect it and put that little thing above the top. So you can see

01:13:34   a text entry, which is very clever, but they're not showing me the keyboard. They show my hands,

01:13:39   but I can't see the keyboard. So we want to see the keyboard. I kind of dial it into about 60 or

01:13:43   70%, which I kind of like anyway. And then I can see my keyboard in front of me. I can look around

01:13:47   and see what's behind me, but in front of me is just this beautiful mountainscape. And I actually,

01:13:54   for window management, really like it because it just feels more natural if I have this, what looks

01:14:00   like an infinite space in front of me that I can just put my windows wherever I want. Like it kind

01:14:04   of, the mental model makes more sense for me to have these huge windows or loads of windows all

01:14:11   over the place in an almost infinite space. If I had looking at an infinite space, it kind of

01:14:17   helps me kind of lock in a bit more. I do wonder, this is a sort of separate thing, panoramas.

01:14:25   I have some spectacular panoramas and I know panoramas aren't immersive, right? They're not

01:14:31   animated. They don't have sound and all of that. I do wonder if maybe allowing users to take their

01:14:38   panoramas and make them in an environment might be a thing that you could do, just almost like

01:14:43   wallpaper. But I think generally these are going to be not commonly made because they are full

01:14:48   360 renders with sound and subtle animation. They obviously take an enormous amount to make, but

01:14:55   more would be better. Although like I live in Joshua Tree, I did the thing,

01:15:00   so there's a Vanity Fair article that came out where Tim Cook said he watched a whole movie on

01:15:03   the ceiling while laying in bed. Somebody asked me if you could do that, and so I did it. I opened

01:15:11   the Disney+ app and I put Moana on the ceiling and I was watching that. I was in Joshua Tree,

01:15:19   I wasn't using one of the Disney+ spaces, and I dialed in Joshua Tree. Since I was looking up,

01:15:25   it was just blue sky with clouds. Mike, I almost turned off the movie and just looked at the blue

01:15:35   sky with clouds because I was like, "Oh, that's so nice. It's just pleasant." That's the point,

01:15:40   right? Whether you're blocking out the outside world, and Apple philosophically doesn't want

01:15:45   this device to be something that completely blocks out the outside world, but if you're going to do

01:15:49   it, there needs to be a purpose. It's sort of like to block out distractions and to relax you or make

01:15:55   you focus. I think they're really good. I want more of them. It's saying coming soon. I guess

01:16:02   that's a promise for more of them, but it does seem a little bit weird. It's also not just these VR

01:16:09   landscapes either. There are a set of them that just color your room with different types of light.

01:16:14   You're just looking through the pass-through, but I think it's like a morning light and a summer

01:16:22   light. It also changes the sound that comes through the ear pods. There's a name. Sound

01:16:30   pods. There's a wintry one where you hear a crackling of a fire. They're also nice because

01:16:39   it's like, imagine you want still to have the signal to you of like, "Oh, I write in the morning

01:16:45   light," or whatever, and it gets you in, like you're saying, with music, but you're still seeing

01:16:48   everything. You don't have to be locked off to the world. I like that balance, but yes, I want more

01:16:52   of them, and I want to be able to have third-party ones too that are available for me. I want to

01:16:58   record a podcast sitting in Avengers Tower. I want to do that. Let me do that. I want to do that.

01:17:04   Yeah, I agree. I agree. Right now, that's also probably a coming soon, but it feels like it's a...

01:17:10   And then you get the benefit of being... I assume, depending on how they want to do that,

01:17:15   it's like if you're a Disney+ person, you get to be in this environment. That's a benefit of having

01:17:21   Disney+, is that you get those environments. I like that. I think that's a fun idea. It's

01:17:26   branding for Disney and also the idea that like, "Oh yeah, I just work on the scare floor now.

01:17:32   That's what I do. That's great. Let's do that." That scare floor one is great too. If you look

01:17:38   up, you can see dust particles floating in a cycle. You really went all out on these. They're

01:17:43   amazing. This is a computer. This is spatial computing. What is your computing experience

01:17:51   being like? Away from the novelty of it, like doing work in VisionOS. What has that been like for you?

01:17:58   Am I wrong in thinking that this basically feels like a 3D iPad?

01:18:01   With Windows management? Well, that's the 3D part. This feels so much like iPadOS.

01:18:13   It feels like an iPad on your face. Yeah, okay. But think of it this way. An iPad where everywhere

01:18:23   is screen everywhere around you and you can place windows anywhere you want. Because the iPad has

01:18:34   fought this, right? This is one of the unique things about the Vision Pro is actually for tech

01:18:40   nerds anyway. It's the first completely arbitrary multi-window placement device that Apple has made

01:18:48   since the Mac. All of the work on iPhone and then iPad about like simplify one app at a time,

01:18:56   maybe two apps at a time, maybe you could go into a special windowing mode, but it's limited and

01:19:00   it's got all these things. This one's like, "No, want more windows? Great. Put them wherever you

01:19:05   want. Stack them in front of each other. You have to stand up to find that other window because it's

01:19:10   behind the other one. We don't care. Go ahead. Do it." There's no expose for it. There probably

01:19:14   should be some window management actually because I do lose windows from time to time.

01:19:18   Although if you look at the close box on a window and you hold, it actually lets you hide all the

01:19:25   other apps, which is that's actually good sometimes. But it feels very iPadOS. The iPad

01:19:32   apps feel actually not that far from being at home in this environment. They're fine to use.

01:19:37   They don't feel broken not being full Vision OS apps. I think that's because Vision OS is adding

01:19:42   some effects and some extra things you can do with 3D and with translucency and things like that.

01:19:47   But the fact is, if you are comfortable and the apps that you use have not opted out,

01:19:53   if you're comfortable on an iPad, Vision OS is like all the iPads you could want in one place at

01:20:01   one time. I got that moment of like, "Oh yeah, spatial computing. I see what you mean now."

01:20:10   Because that's kind of what it is. It's like a spatial iPad. I mean that in a good way. I like

01:20:14   the iPad. My iPad is limited, but I like that. Then you can also do the thing where you connect

01:20:18   to a Mac and then have all the other app windows around you. Then you've got both going on.

01:20:28   For me, yeah, I feel like spatial computing, I get why they have talked about it in those terms,

01:20:33   because that's really what it is. What if you could put windows everywhere,

01:20:37   but it's iPad windows more than it is Mac windows. There's no spatial mode when you connect to a Mac

01:20:43   where you can take individual windows on the Mac and play some places. They just go on a 2D plane

01:20:47   of your screen. But you can have iPad and Vision OS apps everywhere else.

01:20:54   I like the feeling of setting up my workspace. Like, "Alright, I'm going to open this. I'm going

01:20:59   to put it over here. I'm going to put that right up there." I like that feeling of grabbing

01:21:04   and moving these windows around me. There is a physicality to doing it. It feels good. I like

01:21:11   that. The window persistence is really great too. You've used it, you take it off, you put it back

01:21:16   on, your windows are back. The problem is when you have to reboot the device, they will go away.

01:21:22   Because of the battery life on this device, you reboot it frequently.

01:21:26   Not necessarily if you can keep it plugged in or whatever and not totally power it down.

01:21:32   But if you reboot it, they've got to fix that. That's high on the list of things to fix.

01:21:37   It's like the Mac knows my windows mostly. It doesn't do a good job with

01:21:41   Stage Manager actually. It's terrible. If you reboot a Mac and you use Stage Manager,

01:21:46   it just forgets where everything goes. But if you do it regularly, it remembers the windows

01:21:51   that are open and reopens them again on a Mac. So VisionOS needs that too.

01:21:54   Yeah, I agree. The text input is broken. That is one of the most 1.0 things about this

01:22:04   whole platform. I think the platform isn't very good at text input. I think that adding a keyboard

01:22:11   or a keyboard and a trackpad or universal control, which we can talk about in a minute,

01:22:15   I think that helps a lot making this thing navigable. Especially even just adding a keyboard.

01:22:20   Because looking and tapping with your fingers will get you a long way. But text input,

01:22:25   the floating, like eye typing or finger typing on a virtual keyboard is doable, but it's not good.

01:22:33   I would say there are also bugs. If you have a Bluetooth keyboard attached, it works really well.

01:22:41   But in many contexts, it still puts up that floating keyboard and it occludes your content.

01:22:48   It floats right in front of your face. This feels like one of those things that's going to be fixed

01:22:53   soon because it's so obviously busted. I've got a keyboard, I'm typing in this window,

01:22:59   suddenly another window appears. It's like Clippy. Another window appears in front of it and goes,

01:23:03   "Hey, I got a keyboard for you." And I'm like, "Okay, one, I have a keyboard."

01:23:07   "Hey, I see you like keyboards. Do you want another one?"

01:23:09   "You want another one? Let's fill the screen with keyboards." And it's right in your field.

01:23:15   It's in your view. I know they want it to be where you can type on it, but it's also blocking

01:23:19   the thing I want to type. I find that very frustrating. Again, I know that they're trying

01:23:26   to come up with the answer to how do you input text when you don't have another means. I don't

01:23:31   think it's great. I think it's also really confusing because you have this proxy keyboard

01:23:36   and it's got a dictation icon on it. What happens is when you dictate, it dictates into the proxy

01:23:44   keyboard. It's also entering that text into the app that the text input is going into,

01:23:50   which you may not be able to see. I had several instances where I was trying to dictate something

01:23:54   into messages and was frustrated that it wasn't working. Then I realized I was actually dictating

01:24:00   into messages via the proxy keyboard, but I couldn't see it because it covered the text

01:24:05   of your window of messages. What are you doing? Also, if you want to edit that text, it's so hard.

01:24:10   It's so hard. Basically, all of the means of text entry that are contained within VisionOS itself

01:24:20   are for simple things only. If you want to do any kind of text entry, you need a keyboard.

01:24:28   You either always need to use a Mac and use a universal control or you need a keyboard.

01:24:36   I use the magic keyboard with it and it worked great. It doesn't do command-tab,

01:24:40   which bothers me. I don't know what it would do, but it bothers me that it doesn't do command-tab.

01:24:44   But it does command space. Spotlight exists in VisionOS.

01:24:48   However, in my experience, Spotlight doesn't want to go away.

01:24:54   Oh, interesting.

01:24:56   I open Spotlight. I open an app. The app opens. Spotlight remains open.

01:25:02   Spotlight's like, "What are we going to do next, buddy?"

01:25:04   "What do you want, bud? I'm still here if you need me."

01:25:06   It's like, "No, Spotlight. We're done now. Me and you. We're fine."

01:25:11   Spotlight's waiting for a tip. You're in a hotel. Spotlight's waiting for a tip.

01:25:15   "You've got to tip me before I leave here."

01:25:17   Yeah, I haven't had that experience. I love that Spotlight exists there, but I agree with you.

01:25:21   Could they do a better job? Certainly. I know it's a hard job, but I keep thinking

01:25:27   there's got to be a way to do a voice-driven text input. I know you don't always want to

01:25:31   use your voice. You're in a public place or whatever. Yes, I think Bluetooth keyboard is

01:25:38   your friend. That's number one. They do some amazing things. You mentioned it before.

01:25:41   It recognizes your keyboard and puts a floater that's attached to the top of the keyboard so

01:25:47   that if you're typing and not looking at where you're typing because you're not a touch typist

01:25:51   and you're looking down, it will show you what you're typing. That one is really brilliant and

01:25:58   cool. It's the other one that's not so great. Bluetooth keyboard is your friend.

01:26:01   That's where the passwords exist too. It's the QuickType bar. If you're using a keyboard

01:26:08   and you want to enter a password, that little guy is floating there and you can just look at it.

01:26:12   It's really good, but there are tweaks. There are bugs. The fact that the software keyboard

01:26:21   just keeps popping up and it seems to always be where you don't want it, which is very funny.

01:26:27   I just find if you are doing some content consumption stuff, which this thing is

01:26:33   incredible for, just use the on-screen keyboard. If you are looking to do any kind of work,

01:26:38   you need a keyboard. To me though, that is exactly how I expected it to be anyway.

01:26:44   The thing is it works really well. That's the thing. Other than the text input getting in the

01:26:48   way sometimes, depending on what you want to do, if all you have with you is Vision Pro and

01:26:56   a Bluetooth keyboard, you can go a long way. It's like using an iPad. That's what you're doing at

01:27:04   that point. In space! I was meant to bring a trackpad with me and I forgot to bring my trackpad,

01:27:11   but I have my Mac. I would say that using the trackpad is good, but it's also just a keyboard

01:27:16   and eye tracking work great together. It's a very cool combo actually. I look where I want to type

01:27:26   and start typing, I look at another window and it follows you around. That is really cool. That

01:27:33   the combination of eye tracking and a physical keyboard is pretty sick. I'm digging it.

01:27:40   I found myself doing a lot of like, I'm typing, I'm typing, and then I need to use a mouse gesture

01:27:46   basically. Instead I go look, tap, move, slide, whatever, and then I'm back to typing. It's

01:27:53   different but it's natural. You're using those gaze and hand movement gestures as your trackpad

01:28:00   or mouse, but you're still using the keyboard as the keyboard. We didn't even really talk about

01:28:05   the gestures. I've been getting on with them pretty fine. I'm still learning some and trying

01:28:11   to work out how much of a gesture do I need to do for scrolling and stuff like that. I've found it

01:28:17   to be something I've gotten used to very quickly. The look and pinch, look and pinch, look and

01:28:22   double tap, long press. As you say, these things, you're really just taking a thing you already know

01:28:28   and translating it to a different gesture in a way. Somebody asked me if it was fatiguing.

01:28:35   It's not. I would say they're more natural gestures than using a mouse or a trackpad.

01:28:41   I think you're probably less likely to get RSI from them. I think it's fatiguing at first because

01:28:47   you over act it. When you first use it, you're like, "Your arms are all over this." Come on,

01:28:53   we're going to scroll here. But the more you get used to it, the more comfortable it starts to feel

01:29:00   as it becomes more natural. You're a little more subtle gesture. That's the same with your eyes

01:29:03   too. When you first use this thing, you're moving your eyes way more than you need to.

01:29:09   Steering daggers at every icon everywhere. You're like, "I got you now." You got to get away from me.

01:29:14   I don't need to do that. Just glance. Obviously, we're Mac users and this has a very cool

01:29:21   integration with the Mac where you can bring a Mac into the Vision Pro and use the Mac, use the Mac's

01:29:29   keyboard and trackpad, use continuity and universal control, which I'm so thrilled that they added to

01:29:36   this device because I didn't know they were going to do it. It feels very much to me like one of

01:29:40   those reveals of like, "Oh, this is why universal control exists." I reckon, I'm just going to guess

01:29:49   we have very different experiences right now because I am currently on a 13-inch MacBook Air

01:29:54   in a hotel room. So the idea of being able to get a 30-inch screen for my Mac where I can actually

01:30:01   do my window management how I like has been very cool and very appealing to me. I did the thing

01:30:07   where I took the screen of a Mac attached to a... And it works with any Mac that's running...

01:30:15   Maybe it has to be Apple Silicon, but it's running Sonoma desktop, laptop. There's this weird thing

01:30:21   going around where people are like, "Oh, it doesn't work with desktops." It's not true.

01:30:24   I was just using it with my Mac Studio. But I did the thing where I connected and I resized the

01:30:30   window and I had it be exactly where my monitor was, but using the window. And you don't want to

01:30:36   do that. If all you're doing is using a Mac and you've got a 27-inch Retina Studio display,

01:30:41   you're fine. Just use the real display at that point. However, there are lots of scenarios where

01:30:48   you don't have or are not with your nice monitor. And you gave that perfect example. I did a bunch

01:30:55   of Mac work this weekend with my MacBook Air in my lap, but a giant screen that I actually positioned

01:31:03   sort of right where the MacBook Air screen was. So it was like MacBook Air keyboard and then giant

01:31:08   screen comes out of the top of the MacBook Air. And that is really nice. And then of course,

01:31:13   you can also add stuff to the sides and have a whole kind of experience happening inside the

01:31:18   Vision Pro separate. And the latency is low and it's a pretty good experience using a Mac.

01:31:25   - I mean, honestly, to me, I don't feel like there is any latency. The only thing is just the

01:31:31   crispness of the text. And I've been just been doing some things to mitigate that. So like I was

01:31:36   doing some work in Google Docs. I just increased the zoom level of Google Docs and it was great.

01:31:42   So rather than 100%, 125%, I can also make the window bigger if I want to.

01:31:46   - Yeah, 'cause it's not as clear as it is if it's a native app, but it's still pretty good.

01:31:51   And yeah, basically it feels like you're using the Mac. The illusion is perfect.

01:31:54   And there are so many scenarios where it's better than the Mac experience that you would otherwise

01:32:00   have. And so that's pretty great. And then universal control, it is mind blowing to have

01:32:09   that moment where you've got an app, a Vision OS app off to the left and your Mac screen is in

01:32:14   front of you and you move the track pad on your Mac and the cursor flies off the edge of the Mac

01:32:20   and pops as a little iPad cursor onto the Vision OS app and behaves just as an iPad app when you're

01:32:28   attached to a Magic Keyboard would work. And you can do that in a 3D space. It never floats in

01:32:32   space. It pops to the window you're headed for, essentially. I did have some bugs. I had a moment,

01:32:39   I had to reboot basically. I had a moment where I couldn't see the pointer anymore. I could see what

01:32:43   was highlighting that happened at one point. A reboot fixed it. And that was one of those

01:32:47   moments of like, that's a bug. That's a bug. - You don't even have to do the dragging.

01:32:51   Like you can just be in the Mac and then you go over there and look at Notes and move the track

01:32:57   pad and it's there. I genuinely cannot get my head around how they've made that work. There is a

01:33:06   thing to me where it's like, if I have a Mac and an iPad, these are two physical things in the world,

01:33:10   they can be maybe aware of where each other are. They're doing whatever they're doing. But the idea

01:33:15   that I have a Mac in front of me and I can take the screen and put it on the right and then go

01:33:20   left and I'm on the Notes window on the left, it is absolutely mind-bending to me. It's like magic.

01:33:26   It is like actual magic. I cannot work out how they're able to do that. It is really, really,

01:33:33   really cool. But not just cool, really useful. Like you have this kind of like Macintosh escape hatch

01:33:41   for all the things that Vision OS can't do. I just have this window. It's right there. And you know

01:33:45   what? I need a keyboard anyway. And I have that. So I got my keyboard. Truly bravo to whoever it was

01:33:54   who had to fight really hard to get this to be the thing that it can do because it immediately

01:34:00   elevates this product to being able to be usable by more people to get their work done. Because you

01:34:06   can have an environment where you have whatever app it is in your Mac that you need open and then

01:34:12   surround it with native Vision OS apps. And you now have eight monitors that you're getting your

01:34:18   work done with in this one little package. It's really cool. It's really cool. So my tech issue

01:34:27   here is that I saw the connect button one time. It's very flaky for me too. So generally what

01:34:36   happens and when it happened that was awesome because it's also a kind of one of these cool

01:34:42   AR tricks where it's floating right over your laptop. It's detected where your laptop is.

01:34:46   It sees it. It knows it can connect to it. But that only happened to me one time. I've had times

01:34:52   where it hasn't listed the Mac that's literally in my lap. All the settings are right. It used to

01:34:57   connect. Now it doesn't. I've rebooted things and eventually it comes back. But the good news is you

01:35:03   can use Control Center which you get to by looking up and a little firefly appears that expands into

01:35:11   Control Center and you tap on it and it opens. And there's a connect to a Mac button in Control

01:35:16   Center and it shows all the Macs that are nearby that you can connect to. And that has worked

01:35:20   much more reliably. Although again I've had moments where my MacBook Air just doesn't show

01:35:26   up and it's sitting in my lap and I don't know what that is. It feels very of a kind with some

01:35:32   of Apple's other continuity features that sometimes are a little flaky. It's like, "Oh, why is this

01:35:38   shared clipboard not working?" And the answer is, "I don't know. I guess there's a reason." But when

01:35:43   it works, it's great. And the auto connect is really nice. The one thing I'll say is,

01:35:48   if you've got a Mac that doesn't have input devices on it, you can't really drive your Mac

01:35:54   with your eyes. So it really is for laptops or for desktops that have keyboards and trackpads

01:36:01   attached. It's not a VNC client. You really want to be right there with it. But it works really

01:36:08   great. I'm really excited about it. I would say I've had to do the Control Center trick a bunch

01:36:15   of times too, but it actually just works really easily. I never have that part fail. I'm happy

01:36:21   that they did that. I don't know why they put that in there, but I feel like they know it doesn't

01:36:24   work 100% of the time. There's two ways to get it. Clearly. This episode is brought to you by

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01:38:26   Now obviously, this is a truly fantastic content consumption device. What has been,

01:38:34   you mentioned Moana already, but what has been your media experience like in the Vision Pro?

01:38:39   Clouds. Let's start with the immersive videos, right? So Apple has offered, they're a series,

01:38:46   like this first episode's a various series of these things. So they're short, but there are

01:38:51   these immersive videos. We've seen, there's the real, actually, if you go to search and

01:38:56   tap on immersive, you can actually get the highlight reel that they, the demo reel is

01:39:00   available too. That's got a bunch of stuff that is not currently in the store. That's where the

01:39:05   soccer goal and the baseball play is. Like what we saw. It's actually the version that I saw.

01:39:13   It's a little different from what we saw in June. It's the version I saw a couple of weeks ago.

01:39:16   They've changed some of it, but very similar. And so they've rolled those out and those are like 180

01:39:22   degree-ish, 3D immersive scenes. And so this is the woman who puts the lines across the, you know,

01:39:32   in the fjord with like hundreds of feet below her. And then she walks across it. And the, the,

01:39:37   it's, it's very impressive. Or it's Alicia Keys singing to you. That one's really interesting.

01:39:43   - Alicia Keys singing at you. - At the beginning.

01:39:47   - Yeah, I don't like it. - Yeah. It's, it's, it's a little,

01:39:50   yeah, all your social cues are like, why me? No, no, Alicia, not me. But that's got, that's,

01:39:55   that's seen as three cameras and you can actually see there are these little white kiosks in the

01:40:00   room. And one of them is cropped out at one point, but then they switch to the other view and you're

01:40:05   like, oh, there, that's what my previous view was. And there are three of them. So you can see that

01:40:10   they, for that one, at least they built a little thing to capture this. Also with the prodding of

01:40:17   Will Carroll, the sports writer, I did figure out the, what baseball game that one shot is from in

01:40:21   the, in the demo reel. It's an Apple TV plus game. What a surprise that they were, Apple was already

01:40:27   there when they captured that. So those things, which is apparently this proprietary capture

01:40:32   technology that Apple has built, they are so impressive. Like the rhinos are amazing. The

01:40:40   woman who is out over the fjord is amazing. Like the dinosaur stuff was cool. Although again,

01:40:48   a completely CGI capture is not as impressive to me as something that is from the real world,

01:40:54   but still very impressive. The Alicia Keys thing is, is you're just a fly on the wall, except when

01:41:00   she's looking at you. And that's a little disturbing. I, so those are amazing, right? And

01:41:05   those are the fully immersive, like this is not something you could go to a movie theater and see.

01:41:10   It's like you're in the room. Um, I found those pretty incredible. What did you think of those?

01:41:15   I haven't done many of them yet. I only, I just played around with, uh, encounter dinosaurs again,

01:41:22   cause that one was fun. Which is interactive. So it's not actually a video. It's, it's a little

01:41:26   more than that. Yeah. But I haven't watched the immersive videos yet. I had Lauren run

01:41:31   encounter dinosaurs when she was in guest mode. And that was amazing to watch her, like react to

01:41:36   the dinosaur coming in and all that. I think that's very impressive. I think that's the demo.

01:41:42   That's why it's there. Yeah. It's fun. That's why they broke that one out as an app. Right. Like

01:41:46   it's, yeah. It's, it's meant to be experienced. Yeah. Cause it's cause it is interactive. It has

01:41:51   to be an app, but, um, but it is immersive. So yeah, anyway, I think the immersive videos are

01:41:56   great. I think my question is what's going to get shot in this format. Did you see, uh, Tim Cook and,

01:42:04   and, uh, the NBA commissioners Nate silver. Is that his name? No, that's Adam silver. Nate silver

01:42:10   is a different guy. Nate silver is the, is the five 38 guy. Close. Yeah. Close. Uh, they were together

01:42:18   a couple of days ago and we're kind of talking about like, yes, this is the thing we're going

01:42:23   to work on this and you know, it seems like that's the thing. NBA has a NBA has an app that, um,

01:42:31   you know, where you can see you're going to have multiple games. It's, it's definitely like the

01:42:34   quad box gone completely wild. But, um, uh, but yeah, that is my open question about immersive

01:42:42   is can you do, I mean, I'm sure you could do immersive highlights. Can you do immersive live

01:42:49   or is it just too much data? And I don't know in the future. Sure. Right. Like it feels like

01:42:55   something you can get to, but yeah, maybe you have to wait a day and then you can watch the basketball

01:43:00   game using that and maybe that will be worth it for some people. That was when I got HDTV for the

01:43:06   first time. Um, it was so early in HDTV that they had HD from the Olympics, but you got the, you got

01:43:12   it the next day, which is, I thought was really funny. They're like, well, you gotta wait. So yeah,

01:43:17   maybe, or it'll be highlights or something like that. But still, I would think that they're going

01:43:20   to be doing a lot of experimentation with that probably with MLS and major league baseball and

01:43:26   the NBA. Um, these are all good partners for Apple and, uh, and there are also some media partners

01:43:34   like ma there's a max app and max is a media partner of the NBA. So you can see that there

01:43:39   are scenarios where these different groups come together. And of course, Disney is ESPN. So there

01:43:44   are a lot of Apple partners on vision pro that are also, uh, rights holders. Plus the leagues are

01:43:51   interested in there's an MLB and NBA app on there on day one, the MLB app, by the way, right now,

01:43:56   what it does is it plays you the ninth inning of game one of the world series last year.

01:44:01   But in addition to the video, you've got like a 3d space where the pitches go. So you can see where

01:44:06   the pitches were, or you can switch to a 3d space of the field and you can see where all the fielders

01:44:11   are as they move sync to the video. It's a, it's a debt. I haven't tried it yet, but I've downloaded

01:44:16   the PGA app because they've got some like some previous, um, golf games matches, some golf, golf

01:44:24   stuff where you can watch the, where the shots go on a map, like a 3d map. As you're watching the

01:44:32   game, like a thousand people have sent me that F1 concept. Right. And I think that that kind of

01:44:37   thing could happen in the future because F1 is also a very data rich sport. So you could have

01:44:42   like a live 3d map of the cars going round and watch. Like, I think that is actually the, really

01:44:46   the way to consume a lot of sports is like, not necessarily like you could do the immersive thing,

01:44:51   but there's also this other thing of like using the data that you have about the game as it's

01:44:55   being played to give cool ancillary content that is really interesting to help you like

01:45:01   further your experience of watching the game and be like, right. A active participant in it without

01:45:07   moving your head left and right to watch where the ball's going or whatever. Like there are two

01:45:11   different ways to do this. And it's interesting to see how these are going to roll out, but I've,

01:45:15   I've watched some 3d movies and a bunch of stuff in the Disney stuff. I haven't watched anything in

01:45:19   full, but I've watched lots of clips. It's so good. It's so good. Like I've never seen 3d look

01:45:25   this good because the color is bright. And also the spatial audio I was watching what I did first

01:45:32   as I went to the Disney plus app, sat down in Avengers tower freaked out because I could not

01:45:38   believe it. It was so good looking around and seeing all the little Easter eggs. Then I put the

01:45:43   climactic fight scene of Avengers end game is what I wanted to watch. And so I watched that scene

01:45:49   in 3d with spatial audio on this huge screen at night. It's funny. I'm in New York and looking at

01:45:57   New York, right. Which is also kind of funny, but yeah, that, that experience is so, so good. And

01:46:03   like my plan is I haven't had the time yet. I'm probably going to wait till I'm home now.

01:46:07   I'm going to watch Avatar in it. Like I've wanted to do that. Apparently it's really good. I'm

01:46:11   going to watch Avatar in it. Yeah. I agree. Um, for those who don't know the way 3d movies are

01:46:17   projected in movie theaters is, uh, they're, they have to project two images, which means that you

01:46:22   lose half the light. Yeah. And so they're often very dim. Yep. Very dim. And, and you have to

01:46:28   wear, you know, the 3d glasses, glasses, right? Right. So this is a superior experience because

01:46:36   the both, both eyes are full brightness and you don't have glasses over glasses.

01:46:44   And, uh, it's a good display. So they look really good in a way. I don't love 3d movies as a

01:46:50   concept, but I like them a whole lot more in this context. And even on, even on the quest, I would

01:46:55   watch 3d movies that I would like rip from a Blu-ray because it was interesting, but also

01:47:01   it was not a bad experience and it's way better on this. So I, I think it's going to be interesting

01:47:06   to see. There's a lot of 3d content out there. It's mostly movies because there are 3d versions

01:47:12   of movies in theaters. They're never turned into home video anymore. Right. Cause 3d TVs didn't

01:47:18   work. I would imagine that everybody's going to dust off all their 3d content and make it

01:47:22   available. I think the questions are what's available for rent or purchase in the TV app.

01:47:30   What's available on, uh, on apps. So Disney's got 3d content. Now the max app doesn't have 3d

01:47:36   content, but Warner, Warner has lots of 3d movies that they could put in max if they wanted to.

01:47:43   I don't know whether they do or not. This is the question. I also did run into a bug,

01:47:47   which is interesting. And I don't know what form resolving it will take, but if I go into

01:47:54   my library and the TV app and show 3d, it shows me like nine movies that I bought that are in 3d

01:48:01   and I play them and they're in 3d and it asks you, it says, do you want to play this in 2d or 3d?

01:48:06   Yeah. Which is nice. If I go into their store where they list everything they've got in 3d,

01:48:13   some of the movies in that list are movies I own,

01:48:19   but they're not in my list of library 3d movies. So like into the spider verse. So I tap on into

01:48:27   the spider verse and it brings it up and it says, well, you own this. Do you want to watch it in 3d?

01:48:32   And I say, yes, there's actually even a, a tile plan 2d plan 3d. I tap play in 3d and it plays it

01:48:39   in 2d. I can't decide whether this is a technical issue or if Sony hasn't licensed existing purchasers

01:48:53   of, into the spider verse on apple TV to get access to the 3d version. But also it's not

01:49:02   possible for me to buy the 3d version because I already own it. I'm sure it'll get resolved either.

01:49:10   Either it'll show up or Sony will ask me to pay more money to upgrade it to 3d inside the TV app.

01:49:16   I don't know what it's going to be. It's a bummer because that's a really great movie in 3d,

01:49:20   into the spider verse. Cause it's like, it's just beautiful. It's beautiful anyway,

01:49:25   but it's extra beautiful in 3d. It's one of, one of those kind of like really good movies

01:49:28   to watch in 3d. So they've got, they've got a story issue there where there are movies that

01:49:33   are marked as 3d, but you don't, they don't show up in your library as 3d and you don't have access

01:49:37   to them as 3d. So that's kind of a bummer. But there's still a bunch of 3d content and I hope

01:49:43   there's more. And it makes me want apple to at the very least start shooting some of their TV shows

01:49:49   in 3d. But I don't know if they'll do that. Cause it does cost to do a 3d conversion costs. Even if

01:49:55   you don't shoot it in 3d to convert it. It does make me wonder if they're going to go back and

01:49:59   like convert Ted Lasso to 3d or something like that. I don't know. They could do it. It's all a

01:50:05   post-production conversion. They could do it if they want to do, that would be weird. More likely

01:50:11   they're going to have like an, they're going to like work with Sony and license it and whatever

01:50:15   they have to do to make like an immersive environment of the locker room or something

01:50:19   or the field. Well, I want to watch for all mankind sitting in Jonestown instead of just being on the

01:50:25   moon, which is a little more sterile be right there saying hi, Bob. So, so all that's good. Um,

01:50:32   and the, and I'm, I'm curious about them. I have a note about speaking of the quad box and the

01:50:37   multi box and the Infini box, uh, that's possible with this. One of the issues is I said it was

01:50:44   basically iPadOS as we know iOS and iPadOS really don't want to play more than one thing at the

01:50:49   time. And so sometimes something will play and your music stops or your video stops,

01:50:54   even if you're multitasking. So I tested this out a little bit on visionOS and with two

01:51:01   visionOS native apps playing video at the same time, not getting immersive in any way,

01:51:13   it works. I was able to get like the max app and I forget what the other app was.

01:51:19   That's in the app. I was able to get two native visionOS apps to play video in different places

01:51:26   at the same time. I was like, yes, that's cool. Right? Cause that's a thing you can't do on the

01:51:29   iPad. However, if I used the Fubo app, which is an iPad app running in visionOS, it stopped

01:51:38   other video or stopped itself. So there's still some stuff to be worked out, but the dream is

01:51:45   alive. Right? And this is the thing that I really want to see. Yeah, that's, it's there. Right.

01:51:50   Cause the fun, that's the hardest thing is to get the fundamental thing to work. Right. So what,

01:51:55   what we need is the ability to have multiple video players playing simultaneously in a space

01:52:02   because, and separate from that, when you generate, if you're a video app on an unvisionOS,

01:52:09   you need to be able to support multiple windows as well. Right. You shouldn't be locked into one.

01:52:15   So if I want, if I'm in the max app, let's say, and I want to put up CNN in one window and a live

01:52:24   NBA game from bleacher report in another window, both in the max app, I should be able to do that.

01:52:31   And then if I want to add an MLS match from the TV app, and I don't want to be immersive, I just want

01:52:37   to show me the soccer match. I should be able to open that out and have three of them running.

01:52:43   I really should be able to open even more. I know that at some point the processor will yell at me,

01:52:47   and the network will yell at me and it's going to have to manage that. But like,

01:52:50   this should be a way of doing that. Cause this is, we're now in a, with visionOS,

01:52:54   we're in a multi window space and all the apps need to work at once.

01:52:58   - Talking about media, do you have any thoughts on the battery life?

01:53:03   Has it been a concern or a problem for you? - I've been mostly tethered. So it hasn't been at

01:53:08   one point I was using it thinking I was tethered, but I mean, you're technically,

01:53:12   we're always tethered to the battery, right? Which it's a learning experience of like,

01:53:17   where am I going to put the battery in a pocket next to me? If you put it next to you and you

01:53:22   stand up, then like, Oh no, the battery has to come with me. Um, there's, there's a learning

01:53:27   curve there. It's not ideal. It's a little awkward. You learn it, but it, you know,

01:53:31   obviously in the long run, you don't want to have the external battery. That's just where we are now.

01:53:35   Um, but I did leave it unplugged at one point and I got the little chime, the little sad chime that

01:53:43   comes from AirPods that said, Oh, you're a 20% or whatever. I was like, Oh, okay, I'll plug it in.

01:53:49   I haven't tested the battery life in terms of like timing it. I've just been trying to test

01:53:53   the interface. It's yeah, I think, I think it gives you enough time to spend a couple of hours

01:53:59   if you're completely untouched. I will say that in most contexts these days, you actually have a

01:54:06   place to plug in a USB device, uh, like on airplanes and in cars and you know, whatever else,

01:54:13   wherever else you might be in the backseat, of course. Um, but, but yeah, it seems fine to me

01:54:20   other than just being awkward. Yeah. I, it hasn't, the battery, the battery is not a problem.

01:54:27   Like just having the physical thing for me. Cause I'm like stationary when I'm using a device. So

01:54:31   I'm getting up and walking around. So it's not an issue. And the battery life, again, as you say,

01:54:37   like I haven't found it to be a problem because I can, if anywhere that I can imagine myself

01:54:42   realistically wanting to use this, I have access to power. Like, and I think that that is fine and

01:54:49   we'll see how that goes in time. Right? Like we might have different feelings on that a month from

01:54:53   now. And that's, that goes for all of this. Like this is not a review, right? Like we have not reviewed

01:54:58   this. These are our impressions and like there's so much stuff that I've, and you, I'm sure we've

01:55:05   had lots of things we haven't even touched on today. This is going to take a lot of time to

01:55:11   talk about. Like I have a question, like my final question I wanted to ask ourselves today is what

01:55:16   will we use it for? And I just don't know if we can realistically answer that right now, but at

01:55:20   the moment, my answer is I'm trying everything. Right. And seeing how it works. During this

01:55:25   episode today, I found out, I don't think it's good to record a podcast of this thing on, but

01:55:30   yeah, you know, like these, but I'll work that out. Maybe in a month I will know how to do that.

01:55:36   And it will be very comfortable for me. And it will be a great way for me to record podcasts

01:55:39   with one of these things on, but at the moment I'm trying everything and I will know in time

01:55:46   what I want to use it for. Yeah, I look, this is early days. I think one of the challenges here is

01:55:55   people are going to view this through the lens of so many products that we talk about, which is

01:55:58   should I buy it? And this is an immature product in an immature product category. So should you buy

01:56:05   it? Like, should you buy it for real practical purposes is going to be a tough sell given the

01:56:10   price, even though it's very capable. I think there's an element of, I want this because it's

01:56:15   the future that has to be calculated for it to make sense. Cause otherwise you got plenty,

01:56:20   you got a super computer that lives in your pocket. You got incredibly powerful computers

01:56:24   that you can buy. Like this thing is the future. And that's why you buy it because you want to get

01:56:29   a taste of the future, or you have a very specific use case of where it makes sense.

01:56:33   But for the most part, this is exploratory. This is the beginning of a journey. This is a

01:56:37   new product in a relatively young category. It's super cutting edge. It's very impressive,

01:56:43   but you know, a lot of the reviewers, the reviews that have already happened are,

01:56:47   it's incredibly impressive. In fact, I would say we haven't really talked about this.

01:56:51   I think the reviews are way more positive than I ever expected for this. I was surprised by that.

01:56:57   Because it is such a weird product and it's so expensive, but you know, pretty much all the

01:57:03   reviewers have said it's very impressive, which it is. It is Apple, like MKBHD said something in

01:57:12   a couple of his videos that I thought was so great. It's like people complain all the time

01:57:16   about, Oh, it's just another speed bump. It's just another minor incremental update. When will they

01:57:21   do something new and interesting? And then this comes out and there's a reaction from some people

01:57:25   that is like, Oh, this stupid thing. It's like, no, no, no. You don't understand. This is what

01:57:30   we've been asking for. This is Apple making a wild new product that is not like anything it's really

01:57:35   made before in some ways and trying to figure out what it is and what it's for. And like,

01:57:41   I think that's why so many of us got into this business is the exploration of like cutting edge.

01:57:49   We don't even know what it's for. Let's all figure it out together kind of stuff. And that's what

01:57:53   this product is. So I'm excited by it. I don't know what it's for either. The use cases that I

01:58:01   keep thinking up are when you're, you know, one is travel or when you're in a space where you don't

01:58:07   have your stuff, right? Maybe you've got a laptop, but you don't have a big screen. You know, if

01:58:13   you're in a hotel room, I think that's really a good thing. Maybe if you're on an airplane,

01:58:17   although there will be the social issues of being the person who's wearing the headset, that'll

01:58:22   maybe go away at some point. I don't know, but it'll be there for a while. I feel like that's,

01:58:27   that is a use case. Clearly the entertainment part works. Like the screens are great now in terms of

01:58:34   that part of it, but the price and the availability of like content for it is still a question mark.

01:58:40   But that I feel like that is, you know, for a product that Apple, I think wants to be part of a

01:58:45   long journey to a future product line. One of the tricks you have to do is you have to make it like,

01:58:53   what do we get for people to buy a now that keeps us alive for the future where we know we're going?

01:58:59   And I think entertainment really is not, you know, the immersive stuff, the 3D stuff, and then just

01:59:06   the quality of it as a video player for privacy and travel and things like that, I think it's

01:59:11   pretty good. And then yeah, as a computing device that gives you much more screen space,

01:59:19   that's a thing where it, I think is a winner now in some, for some people. And beyond that,

01:59:25   I mean, who knows? I still don't know. I, and I've been using it a lot. So I, I'm sure that over the

01:59:31   weekend I've been using this in ways that are not ways that I would normally use it because I'm

01:59:36   pushing it because I'm trying to learn about it. It, it remains to be seen what use cases I will

01:59:42   embrace for it. Um, beyond, you know, uh, a night where, you know, Lauren's working late and I'm

01:59:50   watching a movie by myself in 3D that I want to see that she doesn't want to see stuff like that.

01:59:55   - But you can rest assured we're going to be talking about it here on the show over the next

02:00:00   weeks, months, years, I guess this is our era now, we're in the Vision era, but in the meantime,

02:00:07   if you want to see what we're talking about, what we're thinking, you can find us online.

02:00:11   Jason's at sixcolors.com. I'm sure he'll be writing about a bunch of stuff there. Uh,

02:00:17   he is @jsnell on zeppelin.flights on Mastodon. I am @imike, I M Y K E on mike.social and on

02:00:25   threads and all those kinds of places. I've been posting stuff on Instagram too, uh, you can go

02:00:29   check out like photos and videos of me using this stuff. Uh, if you want to find video versions of

02:00:35   this show and clips, you can go to YouTube. You can see the entire video there. We are @upgraderelay.

02:00:41   We're also on Instagram, we're @upgraderelay. You want to see clips and also on TikTok as well,

02:00:46   where you can find us. Uh, thanks to our sponsors this week, the fine people over at Squarespace,

02:00:51   ExpressVPN and Fitbud. Thank you to our members who support us of Upgrade Plus. You can get longer,

02:00:57   ad-free versions of the show every week by going to getupgradeplus.com. If you have feedback,

02:01:03   follow up, or you'd like to ask us some questions, especially Ask Upgrade for next week. We ran way

02:01:07   too long for Ask Upgrade this week. If you have questions about the Vision Pro, go to upgradefeedback.com,

02:01:12   send us in there and we'll do our best to answer as many of them as we can over the coming weeks.

02:01:17   Until next time, say goodbye Jason Snow. Goodbye Mike Hurley.