Upgrade

00:00:00 ◼   ► (upbeat music)

00:00:02 ◼   ► From Relay FM, this is Upgrade episode 499,

00:00:13 ◼   ► for February 12th, 2024.

00:00:16 ◼   ► This show is brought to you by Factor, Delete Me and Nom Nom.

00:00:20 ◼   ► My name is Mike Hurley and I am joined by Jason Snow.

00:00:23 ◼   ► Hi, Jason.

00:00:24 ◼   ► - Hi, Mike Hurley.

00:00:25 ◼   ► We're right on the precipice of 500 now.

00:00:26 ◼   ► It's amazing. - Yep.

00:00:27 ◼   ► - Amazing. - Yep.

00:00:28 ◼   ► - Amazing.

00:00:29 ◼   ► - It's gonna be incredible.

00:00:30 ◼   ► - It'll be a big episode next week.

00:00:31 ◼   ► Forget about this episode.

00:00:32 ◼   ► No, no, this episode will be great too.

00:00:33 ◼   ► - No, no, keep listening to this one.

00:00:34 ◼   ► Also a big episode today,

00:00:35 ◼   ► but it'll be another big episode.

00:00:37 ◼   ► In fact, we're just like big episode after big episode

00:00:40 ◼   ► this season, it feels like. - I know, we've gone.

00:00:42 ◼   ► There was a, it was real quiet there for a while

00:00:44 ◼   ► and then all of a sudden, bang, zoom.

00:00:46 ◼   ► Everything's happening. - Hit off the hit.

00:00:47 ◼   ► - Yep.

00:00:48 ◼   ► - I have a snow talk question for you.

00:00:50 ◼   ► It comes from me and I wanna know, Jason,

00:00:52 ◼   ► did you enjoy the Super Bowl?

00:00:54 ◼   ► - You know, the Super Bowl was extremely entertaining,

00:00:56 ◼   ► except, you know, neither team played very well, honestly.

00:01:00 ◼   ► Although I think part of that is that the other,

00:01:02 ◼   ► I think part of that is that the other team was very good.

00:01:06 ◼   ► I mean, this is, we have this tendency to focus on,

00:01:08 ◼   ► like, the offenses didn't do a lot

00:01:10 ◼   ► and therefore the teams were disappointing,

00:01:11 ◼   ► but I think the truth is that the defense

00:01:13 ◼   ► has played really well and they're both very good teams

00:01:16 ◼   ► and so they struggled, but they also made mistakes.

00:01:19 ◼   ► What I liked about the Super Bowl also was that in the end,

00:01:25 ◼   ► either team could have won by making one more play.

00:01:28 ◼   ► Literally, both teams, if they had lost,

00:01:30 ◼   ► would have had a litany of things

00:01:32 ◼   ► that if they had just done that one thing differently,

00:01:35 ◼   ► they would have won the game.

00:01:36 ◼   ► Unfortunately, it was a replay of the Super Bowl

00:01:39 ◼   ► four years ago and my beloved 49ers lost, but it's fine.

00:01:44 ◼   ► Patrick, I mean, again, Patrick Mahomes, they called him,

00:01:48 ◼   ► I think Tony Roble called him the Michael Jordan of football.

00:01:50 ◼   ► I mean, he is kind of that.

00:01:52 ◼   ► He's young, he's talented,

00:01:53 ◼   ► he's already won three Super Bowls.

00:01:55 ◼   ► Anyway, a little bit of a bummer

00:01:56 ◼   ► 'cause my childhood team lost the Super Bowl,

00:01:58 ◼   ► but as I was telling our pal Lex Friedman today,

00:02:02 ◼   ► NFL football is probably my third, fourth favorite sport

00:02:07 ◼   ► and so that eases the pain a little bit.

00:02:09 ◼   ► - I assumed you supported the 49ers,

00:02:13 ◼   ► but you never talk about them,

00:02:15 ◼   ► so I wasn't sure if you did, actually.

00:02:17 ◼   ► - No, and I'm somewhat ambivalent about the NFL.

00:02:20 ◼   ► I used to be more of a 49ers fan.

00:02:23 ◼   ► There were, yeah, yeah, but I mean,

00:02:26 ◼   ► baseball obviously is number one

00:02:28 ◼   ► and then between soccer and college football,

00:02:33 ◼   ► the NFL is in there,

00:02:35 ◼   ► but it's probably third or fourth in my heart.

00:02:38 ◼   ► So that makes it a lot easier.

00:02:39 ◼   ► When I was younger, actually when I was younger,

00:02:41 ◼   ► it was great 'cause the 49ers won the Super Bowl five times.

00:02:44 ◼   ► That was awesome and they haven't won since.

00:02:47 ◼   ► But I'm older and I appreciated all those wins.

00:02:50 ◼   ► So it's a lot easier to get over that.

00:02:52 ◼   ► Once your team has won, especially in a formative age,

00:02:55 ◼   ► it's a lot easier to accept loss after that

00:02:57 ◼   ► because you've been there and you've seen it

00:02:59 ◼   ► and you've had that life experience.

00:03:00 ◼   ► And that's how I felt when the Giants won the World Series.

00:03:03 ◼   ► In 2010, they had been my lifelong team

00:03:06 ◼   ► and my favorite team and had never won.

00:03:09 ◼   ► And that was a magical moment.

00:03:11 ◼   ► And I would love them to do well going forward,

00:03:14 ◼   ► just I would love the 49ers to do the same,

00:03:16 ◼   ► but it's not the same once you've been on the mountain top.

00:03:19 ◼   ► Like I feel, I was thinking how unique yesterday was

00:03:23 ◼   ► in the sense that like there have been eight days in my life

00:03:26 ◼   ► where my favorite football team is playing in the Super Bowl

00:03:28 ◼   ► and that was one of them.

00:03:29 ◼   ► And then I thought, wait a second,

00:03:31 ◼   ► a very old Detroit Lions fan

00:03:34 ◼   ► and a very old Cleveland Browns fan

00:03:36 ◼   ► have never had that experience

00:03:38 ◼   ► 'cause they've never been in the Super Bowl at all.

00:03:39 ◼   ► So I should, you know what, I got it pretty good.

00:03:42 ◼   ► And it was a tight, taut, stressful game.

00:03:48 ◼   ► And I made some, I heated up some bagel dogs,

00:03:53 ◼   ► like little hot dogs inside bagel wrappers

00:03:55 ◼   ► and we ate those.

00:03:56 ◼   ► So, you know, we had a good day.

00:03:59 ◼   ► - I watched the halftime show.

00:04:03 ◼   ► I think Usher was very fun, did a good job.

00:04:05 ◼   ► - Okay. - I enjoyed that.

00:04:06 ◼   ► - I'm gonna, upgrade listeners already know

00:04:08 ◼   ► that I am an old, but I'm just gonna put it out there.

00:04:10 ◼   ► I don't know who Usher is.

00:04:12 ◼   ► I don't know anything about Usher.

00:04:13 ◼   ► - I mean, Usher has been around for like 30 years, but.

00:04:16 ◼   ► - Yeah, no, I got the sense very clearly that I think

00:04:21 ◼   ► one of the things about having kids, especially,

00:04:23 ◼   ► is that you lose whole periods of time where you're so,

00:04:26 ◼   ► like, I can't tell you anything about Usher,

00:04:29 ◼   ► but I can tell you a lot about the Wiggles, okay?

00:04:31 ◼   ► So, but I'm gonna say this,

00:04:33 ◼   ► from a position of being a complete Usher,

00:04:36 ◼   ► like no knowledge guy, he's real good.

00:04:39 ◼   ► Like that was a great show. - He puts on a show, yeah.

00:04:41 ◼   ► - Incredibly talented, really great performance,

00:04:44 ◼   ► loved the many channelings of Michael Jackson

00:04:48 ◼   ► as a child of the 80s.

00:04:49 ◼   ► I was like, he had a guy, he had a glove on at one point.

00:04:52 ◼   ► There were guys dressed as Michael Jackson

00:04:54 ◼   ► in his dance group at various points.

00:04:57 ◼   ► The guest stars were really great.

00:04:58 ◼   ► Alicia Keys, our, all Vision Pro users know,

00:05:02 ◼   ► our close personal friend, Alicia Keys,

00:05:04 ◼   ► she came out and killed it.

00:05:06 ◼   ► So anyway, yeah, there's a great documentary

00:05:10 ◼   ► about the Wiggles on Prime Video, so check that out.

00:05:13 ◼   ► Michael Jackson was very much an influence for Usher.

00:05:16 ◼   ► Usher's first album was in, I think, '94

00:05:18 ◼   ► or something like that, so he's been around for a long time.

00:05:21 ◼   ► I was a big fan of 8701, which is one of my,

00:05:26 ◼   ► like was one of my favorite, I really liked it.

00:05:29 ◼   ► I thought it did a great job.

00:05:30 ◼   ► I really enjoyed the show. - Yeah.

00:05:32 ◼   ► - And also-- - The Appomusic halftime show,

00:05:34 ◼   ► of course. - Yeah, Appomusic halftime show

00:05:35 ◼   ► and I will also say, as just, you know,

00:05:37 ◼   ► as a person who loves love and fairy tales,

00:05:40 ◼   ► I'm happy that the Chiefs won,

00:05:41 ◼   ► 'cause I just think it's great.

00:05:42 ◼   ► I just love the whole thing and I know people hate it

00:05:44 ◼   ► and I get it, but I love it.

00:05:45 ◼   ► I just love that Taylor was there

00:05:48 ◼   ► and like, it's just fun for me.

00:05:49 ◼   ► I just think it's-- - No complaints.

00:05:51 ◼   ► - Incredible, what a time to be alive.

00:05:53 ◼   ► - I have no hate in my heart for Patrick Mahomes

00:05:56 ◼   ► and for the Kelseys and Taylor Swift, obviously.

00:05:59 ◼   ► No, none at all.

00:06:00 ◼   ► I'm bummed out because the 49ers had many opportunities,

00:06:04 ◼   ► like the Chiefs did, to make a decisive move,

00:06:07 ◼   ► one thing different and would have won the game.

00:06:09 ◼   ► And in the end, actually, I mean, really,

00:06:13 ◼   ► in the end, neither of them did, sort of,

00:06:15 ◼   ► until the very, very end.

00:06:16 ◼   ► So it was one of those games.

00:06:18 ◼   ► So I just have to shrug and say, it is a great story.

00:06:22 ◼   ► I realized that everybody else in the world

00:06:24 ◼   ► was hoping to see Taylor Swift be happy

00:06:28 ◼   ► watching the Chiefs win and that's what happened.

00:06:30 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, I can imagine too,

00:06:33 ◼   ► as far as a Super Bowl goes, very exciting.

00:06:36 ◼   ► Feel like it to unfold in the very closing moments

00:06:39 ◼   ► of the game, like that is an exciting thing,

00:06:41 ◼   ► unless it's your team.

00:06:43 ◼   ► - Over time too, there's only been two overtimes

00:06:45 ◼   ► in Super Bowl history.

00:06:46 ◼   ► I mean, it came down, there was a moment

00:06:48 ◼   ► in the fourth quarter where they're like,

00:06:50 ◼   ► oh, this is a great one, it's coming down to the end.

00:06:52 ◼   ► And Lauren sitting next to me on the couch is like,

00:06:54 ◼   ► come on, it's not a great one,

00:06:57 ◼   ► but it is coming down to the end.

00:06:58 ◼   ► So it is dramatic in that way.

00:07:00 ◼   ► - It was an exciting one, maybe, for that.

00:07:02 ◼   ► - Exciting, messy game.

00:07:03 ◼   ► - It wasn't a...

00:07:06 ◼   ► - There were like fumbles and interceptions

00:07:09 ◼   ► and dropped punts and there was lots of mistakes.

00:07:11 ◼   ► - It's better than a domination though, right?

00:07:13 ◼   ► Like if you're watching the sporting event.

00:07:15 ◼   ► - For sure, for sure, for sure.

00:07:17 ◼   ► What you want if you're CBS and you're selling

00:07:19 ◼   ► lots of commercials especially,

00:07:20 ◼   ► is a close game to the end and bonus overtime time

00:07:25 ◼   ► for more commercials, like great.

00:07:28 ◼   ► Like you absolutely want that and it is drama.

00:07:32 ◼   ► It was very dramatic.

00:07:33 ◼   ► Anyway, did I enjoy it?

00:07:34 ◼   ► Sure, am I sad?

00:07:35 ◼   ► A little, but that's okay.

00:07:37 ◼   ► - A couple of items of follow-up.

00:07:40 ◼   ► Well, one is a follow-up section inside a follow-up,

00:07:42 ◼   ► which we'll get to in a second.

00:07:44 ◼   ► - Great.

00:07:45 ◼   ► - But last week we did, in Upgrade Plus,

00:07:49 ◼   ► we did an extra segment where we put on our Vision Pros

00:07:53 ◼   ► and we had a persona call and our video editor, Chip,

00:07:57 ◼   ► put it into the video version on YouTube.

00:08:00 ◼   ► So I'll put a link in the show notes

00:08:02 ◼   ► to our full video version of last week's episode.

00:08:05 ◼   ► If you're intrigued in seeing what it looks like

00:08:07 ◼   ► when me and Jason were talking to each other

00:08:09 ◼   ► with our personas in a picture in picture,

00:08:11 ◼   ► there's a way to do that.

00:08:12 ◼   ► - We actually have a video of just that segment too,

00:08:15 ◼   ► if people wanna see that.

00:08:16 ◼   ► There's a video of just that segment.

00:08:18 ◼   ► - I would quite like people to click the link

00:08:20 ◼   ► for the actual full YouTube public video though, you see?

00:08:23 ◼   ► - All right.

00:08:24 ◼   ► - So it increases the view count and feeds the algorithm,

00:08:28 ◼   ► you see, rather than on the unlisted video,

00:08:31 ◼   ► which won't help us out.

00:08:33 ◼   ► - Well, it's listed now (laughs)

00:08:34 ◼   ► with a better title,

00:08:35 ◼   ► because I think it'll be better for the algorithm,

00:08:37 ◼   ► but this is YouTube talk.

00:08:38 ◼   ► We don't need to talk about it.

00:08:39 ◼   ► - Well, whatever, you know, whichever way you do it,

00:08:41 ◼   ► I'm gonna, did you just click the link

00:08:43 ◼   ► and go watch the thing, you know, and that will be fine.

00:08:45 ◼   ► - Yeah, watch it.

00:08:45 ◼   ► Well, I mean, we did, Chip did an amazing job

00:08:47 ◼   ► 'cause it is us in the Vision Pro headsets

00:08:50 ◼   ► and our personas talking for about eight minutes

00:08:52 ◼   ► so you can get the full experience

00:08:54 ◼   ► of Mike's mouth not opening and the whole thing.

00:08:57 ◼   ► - Cool, then that's gonna be in the show notes.

00:08:59 ◼   ► Go get it.

00:08:59 ◼   ► I don't know if you've done it yet, Jason,

00:09:01 ◼   ► but it's still unlisted, but the title's good.

00:09:04 ◼   ► I relisted it.

00:09:05 ◼   ► I don't know what it's, I'll re-undelist it

00:09:08 ◼   ► or whatever they do on the YouTubes.

00:09:10 ◼   ► - This is YouTube.

00:09:10 ◼   ► Everything takes 10 more clicks

00:09:13 ◼   ► than the two clicks it's supposed to take.

00:09:15 ◼   ► - I don't wanna give away too much

00:09:17 ◼   ► about conversations I have with our friend CGP Grey,

00:09:19 ◼   ► but I did have a YouTube conversation with CGP Grey

00:09:24 ◼   ► where I said, are there,

00:09:28 ◼   ► I'm gonna boil it down to its specifics.

00:09:29 ◼   ► I said, are there things we should be thinking about

00:09:33 ◼   ► strategically about our videos?

00:09:37 ◼   ► And he was like, yes, but don't listen to anybody's advice

00:09:41 ◼   ► 'cause it's all wrong.

00:09:42 ◼   ► I was like, perfect.

00:09:44 ◼   ► - Yeah, that sounds about right.

00:09:46 ◼   ► I think so.

00:09:49 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:09:50 ◼   ► - All right, DMA today time.

00:09:53 ◼   ► ♪ DMA today ♪

00:09:55 ◼   ► ♪ He talking about the DMA ♪

00:09:59 ◼   ► - Is this a song that I should know

00:10:02 ◼   ► or is that like an original composition?

00:10:03 ◼   ► - Only if you're an American who remembers the ads

00:10:06 ◼   ► for USA Today in the 80s on TV.

00:10:08 ◼   ► But yeah, anyway, DMA today, here we are.

00:10:10 ◼   ► - Jason created artwork.

00:10:11 ◼   ► So if you use a podcast app that shows chapter artwork,

00:10:15 ◼   ► you will now see DMA today artwork.

00:10:17 ◼   ► - Enjoy, DMA.

00:10:18 ◼   ► We made this up last week.

00:10:20 ◼   ► Now it's a segment.

00:10:21 ◼   ► - Yes, and so there's basically what,

00:10:23 ◼   ► there's a couple of items of follow-up

00:10:25 ◼   ► that I wanted to address that were related to this

00:10:28 ◼   ► and then also a couple more debate.

00:10:32 ◼   ► - I feel like we're having a slow debate with our audience.

00:10:37 ◼   ► - Yeah, sort of.

00:10:38 ◼   ► - This comes from Matt who says,

00:10:41 ◼   ► "In your disagreement with Scott's feedback

00:10:44 ◼   ► "on last week's episode about the burden

00:10:46 ◼   ► "of a 50 cent core technology fee places on developers,

00:10:50 ◼   ► "you said that free apps can just remain in the App Store

00:10:53 ◼   ► "under the current rules.

00:10:54 ◼   ► "That is true, but only if the apps are a type of app

00:10:57 ◼   ► "that is allowed in the App Store.

00:10:59 ◼   ► "Consider emulators explicitly legal by US law,

00:11:02 ◼   ► "but banned from the App Store."

00:11:04 ◼   ► And Rowe also wrote,

00:11:06 ◼   ► and I'll say lots of people wrote in the variation of this.

00:11:09 ◼   ► Rowe added, "In particular, open source applications

00:11:12 ◼   ► "that Apple doesn't want on the platform

00:11:14 ◼   ► "are effectively prohibited by the proposal."

00:11:16 ◼   ► - All right, so here's the problem with podcasts

00:11:21 ◼   ► is we're not gonna cover every issue every episode.

00:11:27 ◼   ► I have talked about emulators and App Store

00:11:30 ◼   ► rejection policies on it's gotta be at least a half dozen,

00:11:33 ◼   ► if not a dozen episodes of upgrade.

00:11:36 ◼   ► Not gonna mention it every time.

00:11:37 ◼   ► So you're right, yes, I can't mention every single issue,

00:11:41 ◼   ► but this is absolutely true.

00:11:42 ◼   ► One of the whole points of what's going on here,

00:11:46 ◼   ► and one of the reasons you'd might wanna be

00:11:48 ◼   ► in an external marketplace is that you're making a product

00:11:52 ◼   ► that Apple has decided they don't want on their platform.

00:11:56 ◼   ► And therefore, how do you get it out there?

00:11:59 ◼   ► I guess if you're using open source code

00:12:02 ◼   ► that does not allow you to charge money for it,

00:12:05 ◼   ► it's extremely difficult.

00:12:07 ◼   ► If the license allows you to do that,

00:12:09 ◼   ► then perhaps you could charge a dollar or something

00:12:13 ◼   ► and do it that way.

00:12:15 ◼   ► But yes, absolutely the case that there are apps that,

00:12:20 ◼   ► I thought I even said last week, open source apps.

00:12:25 ◼   ► But anyway, yes, I'll agree.

00:12:27 ◼   ► I don't understand the you haven't talked about it part

00:12:30 ◼   ► 'cause God, we have talked about it so much, but okay.

00:12:33 ◼   ► Yes, I agree.

00:12:35 ◼   ► - I don't think anybody said we didn't talk about it,

00:12:36 ◼   ► but I guess it's implied.

00:12:38 ◼   ► Look, here's the thing.

00:12:39 ◼   ► I don't have a lot of sympathy for this argument

00:12:45 ◼   ► because they don't exist on the App Store currently, so.

00:12:48 ◼   ► Right?

00:12:50 ◼   ► - Well, the other context of last week's discussion

00:12:52 ◼   ► is we were talking about the challenge

00:12:54 ◼   ► for people who are in the App Store with their apps

00:12:56 ◼   ► and they're free and would they go to the marketplace,

00:12:59 ◼   ► which is not this scenario.

00:13:01 ◼   ► This is a different scenario where you are saying,

00:13:03 ◼   ► should I bring my app now inside Apple's official policy

00:13:08 ◼   ► here 'cause let's be clear, these apps already exist.

00:13:11 ◼   ► They just exist through like Alt Store

00:13:12 ◼   ► and they're completely outside of Apple's domain.

00:13:15 ◼   ► And this is like, they're bringing them into Apple's domain.

00:13:17 ◼   ► Would they do that?

00:13:18 ◼   ► But the conversation last week was mostly about people

00:13:20 ◼   ► who have free apps on the App Store,

00:13:21 ◼   ► would they enter into this system?

00:13:23 ◼   ► And that's, you know, it's a different argument.

00:13:26 ◼   ► - Right, this doesn't seem difficult to me, right?

00:13:28 ◼   ► Like, if you're an open source app,

00:13:31 ◼   ► go on the App Store as it is currently.

00:13:33 ◼   ► You're not gonna make any money,

00:13:34 ◼   ► so what's the problem?

00:13:35 ◼   ► No problem to you, right?

00:13:36 ◼   ► If you're an open source app or an emulator or whatever

00:13:41 ◼   ► and you're not accepted onto the App Store,

00:13:43 ◼   ► well, you're currently not on the App Store anyway,

00:13:45 ◼   ► so nothing's changed for you.

00:13:47 ◼   ► If you wanna be, well, you have to charge.

00:13:51 ◼   ► And, you know, I'm sure you can work it out, right?

00:13:54 ◼   ► Like, maybe the open source apps could come together

00:13:56 ◼   ► into some kind of store and like,

00:13:58 ◼   ► there's like a fee for all of these apps,

00:14:00 ◼   ► but it's a nonprofit organization.

00:14:03 ◼   ► You know what, there are ways around it.

00:14:05 ◼   ► Like, my point is like,

00:14:07 ◼   ► if an app currently doesn't exist on the App Store,

00:14:09 ◼   ► this hasn't changed that,

00:14:11 ◼   ► 'cause they still don't exist before or after.

00:14:16 ◼   ► Like, in theory, there's now a path for these apps,

00:14:18 ◼   ► but there's a fee for it.

00:14:19 ◼   ► And I understand that might be inelegant,

00:14:24 ◼   ► it might be difficult, potentially impossible,

00:14:26 ◼   ► but it hasn't, it's like Schrodinger's App Store, right?

00:14:30 ◼   ► Like, they don't currently exist on the App Store,

00:14:32 ◼   ► so nothing's changed.

00:14:34 ◼   ► There is now a path in which they could,

00:14:37 ◼   ► but that doesn't, in my eyes, really affect anything?

00:14:42 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:14:43 ◼   ► I feel like all I'm doing is creating more fodder

00:14:45 ◼   ► for next week's DMA today.

00:14:46 ◼   ► - It's fine.

00:14:47 ◼   ► I just, I do think that there is a scenario

00:14:50 ◼   ► that is gonna be potentially an issue here,

00:14:53 ◼   ► where it's open source apps that are prohibited

00:14:56 ◼   ► by the license to charge,

00:15:00 ◼   ► who essentially can't be more than at a million.

00:15:03 ◼   ► Although, I wonder, is there a feature of a sideloading,

00:15:06 ◼   ► you know, sorry, an alternative app marketplace

00:15:09 ◼   ► of like, we'll warn you when you get near a million

00:15:12 ◼   ► and you can just-

00:15:13 ◼   ► - Cut it off.

00:15:14 ◼   ► - Turn it off at that point.

00:15:16 ◼   ► I know what you're saying about that,

00:15:17 ◼   ► but like, those apps don't exist right now,

00:15:20 ◼   ► so like, nothing's changed.

00:15:22 ◼   ► - We don't know.

00:15:23 ◼   ► - It hasn't changed.

00:15:24 ◼   ► - It hasn't changed.

00:15:25 ◼   ► This is like a new question.

00:15:27 ◼   ► One of the things that we felt was a positive

00:15:28 ◼   ► of having alternative app marketplaces or sideloading

00:15:31 ◼   ► was going to be that the idea that I can develop an app

00:15:35 ◼   ► and know that it will come out because Apple can't say no,

00:15:38 ◼   ► I can put it somewhere else, does run into this.

00:15:41 ◼   ► But you're right, it's theoretical,

00:15:43 ◼   ► because those apps have not been in the App Store,

00:15:45 ◼   ► and we were really talking about apps

00:15:46 ◼   ► that were in the App Store for free

00:15:48 ◼   ► and what those developers could choose to do.

00:15:50 ◼   ► I appreciate the feedback.

00:15:51 ◼   ► I don't disagree with it.

00:15:51 ◼   ► I'm just a little frustrated,

00:15:53 ◼   ► 'cause I feel like we've spent tens of hours,

00:15:55 ◼   ► 20s, you know, so many hours talking about these topics,

00:15:59 ◼   ► and it feels like listeners are coming in saying,

00:16:02 ◼   ► I can't believe you didn't mention this thing.

00:16:03 ◼   ► It's like, well, it's not what we were talking about.

00:16:05 ◼   ► - We cannot assume that people remember

00:16:08 ◼   ► everything we've spoken about.

00:16:09 ◼   ► Like, it is a private joke at this point,

00:16:13 ◼   ► but also a public one, of like,

00:16:15 ◼   ► I can't believe you didn't read my blog post,

00:16:17 ◼   ► and like, this started with Casey.

00:16:19 ◼   ► Like, we can't assume people remember.

00:16:22 ◼   ► - I appreciate it, but at the same time,

00:16:23 ◼   ► we can't talk about every single issue

00:16:26 ◼   ► in every single episode. - For sure, for sure.

00:16:27 ◼   ► - It's not possible, so I agree.

00:16:31 ◼   ► - But in the context of the DMA,

00:16:33 ◼   ► maybe we didn't fully cover this one thing,

00:16:37 ◼   ► because we got a lot of feedback about this specific thing.

00:16:40 ◼   ► But now we said it, and I'm sure you made it better,

00:16:42 ◼   ► and I made it worse again.

00:16:44 ◼   ► We'll find out next time on DMA Today,

00:16:45 ◼   ► but I have more. - It's the balance.

00:16:47 ◼   ► - I have more.

00:16:48 ◼   ► So I wanna read a quote from Mark Zuckerberg

00:16:50 ◼   ► about Apple's proposal.

00:16:51 ◼   ► I've edited this a little bit,

00:16:53 ◼   ► because it was a little,

00:16:55 ◼   ► it was a spoken and then transcribed by The Verge,

00:16:59 ◼   ► so I edited it a little bit for clarity.

00:17:02 ◼   ► Mark says, "I don't think that the Apple thing

00:17:05 ◼   ► "is going to have any difference for us.

00:17:07 ◼   ► "I would be very surprised if any developer chose

00:17:09 ◼   ► "to go into the alternative app store that they have.

00:17:13 ◼   ► "They made it so onerous, and I think it's so at odds

00:17:16 ◼   ► "with the intent of what the EU regulation was,

00:17:19 ◼   ► "that I think it's gonna be very difficult for anyone,

00:17:21 ◼   ► "including ourselves, to really seriously entertain

00:17:24 ◼   ► "what they're doing here."

00:17:26 ◼   ► - And there's somebody inside Apple who's like,

00:17:29 ◼   ► "Mission accomplished." (laughs)

00:17:31 ◼   ► - Well, yeah, but this is the thing.

00:17:32 ◼   ► It's like, from Apple's perspective,

00:17:34 ◼   ► this is exactly what they wanted,

00:17:36 ◼   ► but this might be the exact thing they don't want

00:17:39 ◼   ► when it comes to the approval from the European Union.

00:17:41 ◼   ► - Well, even if the EU and the European Commission say,

00:17:46 ◼   ► "Look, Apple is in compliance with the DMA,"

00:17:49 ◼   ► if nothing happens, it seems to me that it will be unlikely

00:17:54 ◼   ► that they will stop and say, "Well, we tried," right?

00:17:57 ◼   ► That's probably not what will happen.

00:17:59 ◼   ► Instead, what will happen is that they will take things

00:18:01 ◼   ► like Mark Zuckerberg's comments and say,

00:18:03 ◼   ► "Oh, we need to do more."

00:18:06 ◼   ► And we'd previously spoken about the idea that Apple,

00:18:11 ◼   ► and you would reference this,

00:18:12 ◼   ► and I thought it was really insightful,

00:18:14 ◼   ► that Apple's gonna do the best that they can

00:18:16 ◼   ► to highlight every possible risk that appears

00:18:19 ◼   ► from an alternative App Store app, right?

00:18:22 ◼   ► That like, any scam, any anything,

00:18:25 ◼   ► Apple's gonna like, shout about it.

00:18:27 ◼   ► And in the expectation of that,

00:18:30 ◼   ► I would like to look at it from the other side

00:18:32 ◼   ► based on some news that came out this week,

00:18:34 ◼   ► but I will start by reading from Apple's developer guidelines

00:18:37 ◼   ► regarding alternate App Stores.

00:18:39 ◼   ► Apple say, "If not properly managed,

00:18:41 ◼   ► alternative distribution poses increased privacy, safety,

00:18:44 ◼   ► and security risks for users and developers.

00:18:47 ◼   ► This includes risks from installing software

00:18:49 ◼   ► from unknown developers that are not subject

00:18:51 ◼   ► to the developer program requirements,

00:18:53 ◼   ► installing software that comprises system integrity

00:18:56 ◼   ► with malware or other malicious code,

00:18:58 ◼   ► distribution of pirated software,

00:19:00 ◼   ► exposure to elicit objectionable and harmful content

00:19:04 ◼   ► due to lower content and moderation standards

00:19:06 ◼   ► and increased risk of scams, fraud, and abuse.

00:19:10 ◼   ► This past week, an app called LastPass,

00:19:13 ◼   ► or LastPass, appeared on the App Store,

00:19:17 ◼   ► basically creating a spoof of the password app LastPass.

00:19:21 ◼   ► So this app didn't necessarily seem to be trying

00:19:25 ◼   ► to steal login information,

00:19:27 ◼   ► but they were trying to get you

00:19:28 ◼   ► to sign up for a subscription.

00:19:30 ◼   ► You think you're signing up for LastPass, but you're not.

00:19:32 ◼   ► This app has since been removed,

00:19:34 ◼   ► but this is an example of something

00:19:36 ◼   ► that never should have gotten through App Review.

00:19:38 ◼   ► And then I feel like with the DMA rules in our minds,

00:19:41 ◼   ► these things are also gonna happen,

00:19:43 ◼   ► where it's gonna be much easier to highlight areas

00:19:47 ◼   ► where App Review falls down,

00:19:49 ◼   ► and we've never expected them to be perfect,

00:19:51 ◼   ► but Apple is speaking in such high and mighty terms

00:19:54 ◼   ► about the risk of fraud from alternative App Stores.

00:19:58 ◼   ► Their own App Store has this problem,

00:20:00 ◼   ► and has always had this problem,

00:20:02 ◼   ► and will continue to have this problem.

00:20:03 ◼   ► And I just thought this was particularly interesting,

00:20:07 ◼   ► and probably got more attention because of the DMA,

00:20:11 ◼   ► but I think is a very good example of the kinds of things

00:20:14 ◼   ► that I think we're gonna be talking about a lot,

00:20:16 ◼   ► where there's gonna be a bunch of tit-for-tat

00:20:18 ◼   ► with this stuff. - For sure.

00:20:19 ◼   ► I feel like this is one of the things

00:20:22 ◼   ► that our sort of specific community talks about a lot.

00:20:25 ◼   ► That is the counterargument to Apple's claims

00:20:31 ◼   ► that they are the great protector of the platform,

00:20:35 ◼   ► is that we have endless examples of dangerous and bad apps

00:20:40 ◼   ► that just get approved,

00:20:42 ◼   ► while at the same time perfectly reasonable apps

00:20:44 ◼   ► get rejected for no apparent reason,

00:20:46 ◼   ► and sometimes require like whole media blitzes

00:20:50 ◼   ► in order to get somebody at Apple to pay attention

00:20:52 ◼   ► and approve it.

00:20:53 ◼   ► And it's very confusing why some stuff that is terrible

00:20:57 ◼   ► just slides on through,

00:20:58 ◼   ► and then other stuff that's perfectly fine

00:21:00 ◼   ► in following the rules gets rejected multiple times.

00:21:03 ◼   ► So this is the, yeah,

00:21:06 ◼   ► what are the developers paying for

00:21:08 ◼   ► if this is what they get?

00:21:09 ◼   ► - I don't think that it would necessarily,

00:21:11 ◼   ► I don't think it's fair to point at every possible scam

00:21:15 ◼   ► and say, "Ha ha."

00:21:16 ◼   ► But something like this specifically

00:21:18 ◼   ► should never have gone through, right?

00:21:20 ◼   ► - Nope, not in a million years.

00:21:21 ◼   ► - Because this is a spoof app of a massive company

00:21:25 ◼   ► with huge privacy implications, right?

00:21:27 ◼   ► That this could have been an app

00:21:29 ◼   ► to ask for your LastPass login, right?

00:21:32 ◼   ► Like, you know, and maybe trick people

00:21:35 ◼   ► into giving that information away.

00:21:37 ◼   ► But it didn't seem like it was doing that,

00:21:39 ◼   ► but it never should have gotten through App Review.

00:21:42 ◼   ► Like there should be,

00:21:42 ◼   ► and I'm sure there are types of applications

00:21:45 ◼   ► that if they look like they're supposed to be something else

00:21:48 ◼   ► they don't get through.

00:21:48 ◼   ► And I bet they mostly focus on that with copyright material.

00:21:52 ◼   ► I bet you couldn't do like, "Dibney Plus,"

00:21:54 ◼   ► you know what I mean?

00:21:55 ◼   ► Like, "Oh, sign up for 'Dibney Plus.'"

00:21:57 ◼   ► No, it's not gonna happen, is it?

00:21:59 ◼   ► With like, Mikey Moose or something.

00:22:01 ◼   ► It's not, that's not gonna happen.

00:22:04 ◼   ► But LastPass did.

00:22:06 ◼   ► - Nestflix, Nestflix. - Nestflix.

00:22:08 ◼   ► It's not gonna happen.

00:22:10 ◼   ► - Probably.

00:22:11 ◼   ► - Well, I don't know if they would care so much

00:22:13 ◼   ► about Netflix right now, but.

00:22:15 ◼   ► - Okay, but they're serious partners.

00:22:18 ◼   ► - Yeah.

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00:25:01 ◼   ► So we've got a lot of Vision Pro to talk about, obviously.

00:25:06 ◼   ► We've had more time with that.

00:25:07 ◼   ► - Don't we ever.

00:25:08 ◼   ► - I wanna start by talking about your review.

00:25:11 ◼   ► So you published a, how many word reviews?

00:25:14 ◼   ► - 8,000 word reviews.

00:25:17 ◼   ► - That's chunky.

00:25:18 ◼   ► Like that is a chunky review for you.

00:25:20 ◼   ► - It's the longest review I have written in quite a while.

00:25:22 ◼   ► I've been in the 5,000, 4,000 word camp for a while.

00:25:26 ◼   ► And I just, Stephen Hackett then did this shortly thereafter.

00:25:29 ◼   ► And it's that thing where you're writing and you're like,

00:25:30 ◼   ► "Oh, I'm 3,000 words in and there's no end in sight."

00:25:33 ◼   ► And it ended up at about 8,000 words, yeah.

00:25:35 ◼   ► - Which isn't a surprise to me because like, you know,

00:25:37 ◼   ► I've recorded many episodes of podcasts

00:25:40 ◼   ► about the Vision Pro now.

00:25:41 ◼   ► We did a, I was really happy with the episode of Cortex

00:25:43 ◼   ► that we did, which I'll put in the show notes too.

00:25:46 ◼   ► - Can't wait to listen.

00:25:47 ◼   ► - We're doing this and like, I still like,

00:25:49 ◼   ► I was using it today obviously,

00:25:51 ◼   ► and I'm still finding out things that I like

00:25:54 ◼   ► and dislike about it, right?

00:25:55 ◼   ► Like it's still happening.

00:25:56 ◼   ► Like I'm still forming opinions about this.

00:25:59 ◼   ► - Well, that's the other thing about doing this

00:26:03 ◼   ► is I end up saying to myself,

00:26:07 ◼   ► I need to finish, right?

00:26:12 ◼   ► Like I need to get it out there.

00:26:14 ◼   ► And I've got, I could have written 20,000 words, right?

00:26:18 ◼   ► But then the review wouldn't be out there for ages.

00:26:22 ◼   ► And so I decided I would, you know,

00:26:26 ◼   ► I would call it at some point and say,

00:26:29 ◼   ► "Okay, this is the first thing."

00:26:30 ◼   ► And then I know I can write about all sorts of aspects of it,

00:26:34 ◼   ► but at some point you just gotta

00:26:36 ◼   ► kind of get the first response out there

00:26:37 ◼   ► and then move on with the rest of your life,

00:26:39 ◼   ► which is what I was trying to do.

00:26:41 ◼   ► - I loved your framing.

00:26:42 ◼   ► So like the, which I recommend people go read this.

00:26:45 ◼   ► People should go read this.

00:26:46 ◼   ► Even if you just read the intro and outro,

00:26:48 ◼   ► you should read more, but like the framing of your review

00:26:52 ◼   ► being that like, you know,

00:26:53 ◼   ► you were there when computers started

00:26:55 ◼   ► and it was very similar to this.

00:26:57 ◼   ► Like I love this quote,

00:26:58 ◼   ► there was very little software available

00:27:01 ◼   ► and the suggestions your computer salesperson

00:27:04 ◼   ► would give to adults were impractical things

00:27:06 ◼   ► like keeping a recipe database or balancing your checkbook.

00:27:10 ◼   ► Like these are the kinds of things

00:27:11 ◼   ► that are happening when people were getting Macs

00:27:12 ◼   ► for the first time and stuff like that.

00:27:14 ◼   ► - And they, well, it's before that, it's even,

00:27:15 ◼   ► it's the Apple IIs and Commodore pets and TRS-80s

00:27:18 ◼   ► and the very, very, very early,

00:27:20 ◼   ► and it extended for a while,

00:27:21 ◼   ► but especially in that earliest of personal computer time,

00:27:25 ◼   ► it was clear these, you know,

00:27:26 ◼   ► it's like gotta get a computer,

00:27:28 ◼   ► we gotta get them in schools, get them for home.

00:27:30 ◼   ► If you can afford it, they were very expensive,

00:27:32 ◼   ► you know, five, $6,000 in today's dollars

00:27:36 ◼   ► for a personal computer and it didn't do anything.

00:27:39 ◼   ► Today's stuff, I mean, the Vision Pro does a lot more

00:27:41 ◼   ► than these things do, but it still gave me that feeling of,

00:27:44 ◼   ► yeah, it does a lot more, but what do you do with it?

00:27:47 ◼   ► Like, what is the practical application for it?

00:27:49 ◼   ► And it feels very much like it's a technology searching

00:27:53 ◼   ► for a practical application,

00:27:54 ◼   ► but very clearly cutting edge, futuristic,

00:27:58 ◼   ► we gotta get on board.

00:28:00 ◼   ► That's the vibe that this really reminded me of is that,

00:28:04 ◼   ► which is we don't know quite what it's for yet.

00:28:06 ◼   ► We're trying, we're throwing a bunch of things out there

00:28:08 ◼   ► that may be things that you could do to apply this

00:28:11 ◼   ► to your life, they're not that practical,

00:28:14 ◼   ► but still it's cutting edge and it's the future

00:28:17 ◼   ► and you should probably pay attention to it.

00:28:19 ◼   ► I get the same feeling from this as I do

00:28:21 ◼   ► from that era when I was a little kid.

00:28:23 ◼   ► - And you know, like, I think it's relative to, right?

00:28:27 ◼   ► 'Cause we were talking about this some months,

00:28:29 ◼   ► so many months ago about the table stakes

00:28:31 ◼   ► for the Vision Pro, right?

00:28:32 ◼   ► Like the base stuff that a computer of any kind needs now,

00:28:37 ◼   ► they had to build, which they did,

00:28:39 ◼   ► but then we're building from the table stakes,

00:28:40 ◼   ► like, all right, it does all the stuff a computer should do,

00:28:43 ◼   ► but what do you use it for?

00:28:45 ◼   ► So the question is still the same,

00:28:46 ◼   ► even though the Vision Pro is more capable

00:28:49 ◼   ► than an Apple II was,

00:28:52 ◼   ► like what it can like just do straight out of the box.

00:28:55 ◼   ► - Right, obviously it's much more capable

00:28:57 ◼   ► and there's software for it,

00:28:59 ◼   ► which was one of the issues

00:29:00 ◼   ► with the early personal computers

00:29:01 ◼   ► is that there wasn't a lot of software available,

00:29:03 ◼   ► but the use case, searching for a use case

00:29:07 ◼   ► is the thing that is similar, absolutely.

00:29:09 ◼   ► - You say in your review,

00:29:11 ◼   ► this is the most impressive piece of hardware

00:29:14 ◼   ► I've ever seen.

00:29:16 ◼   ► - Of Apple hardware?

00:29:17 ◼   ► It is, I mean, if you take the light seal off

00:29:19 ◼   ► and you just kind of hold the thing,

00:29:21 ◼   ► like those displays are incredible and they're so tiny.

00:29:25 ◼   ► And then, and the thing,

00:29:26 ◼   ► I know we talk about how heavy it is and all,

00:29:27 ◼   ► but like the core unit of it is so small

00:29:31 ◼   ► and it's this glass aluminum thing.

00:29:33 ◼   ► I mean, they put a lot of work into it.

00:29:36 ◼   ► It's a very impressive, it's all packed in there.

00:29:38 ◼   ► Again, I feel like there's two things you can say.

00:29:41 ◼   ► You can be appreciative of what it is

00:29:44 ◼   ► and how it was built and how cutting edge it is.

00:29:46 ◼   ► And you don't have to believe it, right?

00:29:49 ◼   ► You don't have to believe in it to appreciate those things.

00:29:51 ◼   ► And so that's what I was trying to say is,

00:29:53 ◼   ► this is, let's stop and appreciate it for a minute.

00:29:58 ◼   ► And then we'll talk about whether it's implausible,

00:30:00 ◼   ► impractical, what's going on with it.

00:30:02 ◼   ► But clearly this is not Apple doing a half-hearted job.

00:30:06 ◼   ► This is full throated Apple trying its best

00:30:10 ◼   ► to make a cutting edge product.

00:30:12 ◼   ► And I love to see it, love to see that.

00:30:14 ◼   ► - One of the things I've been pretty,

00:30:16 ◼   ► I think I've actually been pretty surprised about is,

00:30:19 ◼   ► it has become pop culturefied in the past week quite quickly.

00:30:25 ◼   ► Like lots of celebrities are wearing them.

00:30:29 ◼   ► And producing social media content wearing them.

00:30:34 ◼   ► - Sure.

00:30:34 ◼   ► - But not as a joke, right?

00:30:37 ◼   ► Like I think it has become a little bit of a status object.

00:30:41 ◼   ► I think similar to how the Apple watch did at first,

00:30:44 ◼   ► even though people were statusifying with the gold one.

00:30:48 ◼   ► But I think it's the look of the hardware

00:30:51 ◼   ► has allowed for that, right?

00:30:53 ◼   ► It looks expensive as well as the fact that it is expensive.

00:30:59 ◼   ► And I think that leans itself into a certain type of person

00:31:02 ◼   ► online, the type of person who've been using it, right?

00:31:06 ◼   ► Like it seems to be popping up all over the place

00:31:10 ◼   ► for me at the moment anyway.

00:31:12 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:31:13 ◼   ► - How did you write this review?

00:31:14 ◼   ► Did you write it using the Vision Pro?

00:31:16 ◼   ► - I wrote it almost entirely in the Vision Pro

00:31:19 ◼   ► using a magic keyboard.

00:31:22 ◼   ► I wrote part of it in one writer,

00:31:27 ◼   ► which is my iPad app of choice for writing

00:31:31 ◼   ► and is available as a compatible app.

00:31:33 ◼   ► - Okay.

00:31:34 ◼   ► - I wrote about the first half of it in that.

00:31:37 ◼   ► And then after I gave some feedback

00:31:40 ◼   ► to Simon, the developer of Runestone,

00:31:45 ◼   ► a text editor that is out for Vision Pro

00:31:50 ◼   ► about this challenge I was seeing

00:31:53 ◼   ► where whenever I tried to type, it made the window wide,

00:31:56 ◼   ► even though the text was narrow.

00:31:57 ◼   ► And he and I talked about that a little bit.

00:32:00 ◼   ► And then all of a sudden there was an update.

00:32:02 ◼   ► It wasn't even a test flight build.

00:32:03 ◼   ► There was just an update that fixed that issue.

00:32:06 ◼   ► And I switched over and then I used Runestone

00:32:10 ◼   ► to write the rest of it.

00:32:11 ◼   ► And Runestone doesn't have like all the features

00:32:13 ◼   ► that I want that one writer has, but it's good.

00:32:16 ◼   ► It's a good solid markdown text editor.

00:32:18 ◼   ► And it gave me the experience of writing,

00:32:22 ◼   ► not just writing on the Vision Pro,

00:32:24 ◼   ► but writing on the Vision Pro in an iPad app

00:32:27 ◼   ► and then in a Vision Pro native app

00:32:29 ◼   ► and the difference there, which was kind of interesting.

00:32:32 ◼   ► The iPad app, all the targets are smaller,

00:32:34 ◼   ► but at the same time, it was a familiar app.

00:32:38 ◼   ► It was a full featured familiar app.

00:32:41 ◼   ► It's set up to sync to Dropbox

00:32:43 ◼   ► and Runestone syncs with iCloud.

00:32:47 ◼   ► So I kept having to like copy my review back and forth.

00:32:50 ◼   ► This turned out to be good

00:32:51 ◼   ► because at the end of the process,

00:32:53 ◼   ► I was just kind of, I had one writer open

00:32:56 ◼   ► and I did something with my hands

00:32:58 ◼   ► and it interpreted it as a swipe all the way to the left

00:33:01 ◼   ► to delete the file.

00:33:03 ◼   ► Yeah, it was a dropback box.

00:33:08 ◼   ► I was able to undelete it

00:33:09 ◼   ► and I did have a copy somewhere else,

00:33:10 ◼   ► but I had that thought of like,

00:33:11 ◼   ► well, this isn't great, right?

00:33:12 ◼   ► And I think that's a good example of things

00:33:14 ◼   ► that iPad app developers might not anticipate

00:33:17 ◼   ► about how easy it might be to, for example,

00:33:19 ◼   ► just delete a file with a swipe gesture

00:33:22 ◼   ► because the swipe gesture is no longer quite as explicit.

00:33:24 ◼   ► It can be done really, really accidentally

00:33:27 ◼   ► and undo on a Vision Pro doesn't seem to exist

00:33:31 ◼   ► or at least is not that common.

00:33:33 ◼   ► Anyway, the actual act of writing was pretty good.

00:33:36 ◼   ► I started writing and I wrote a little bit in BB edit

00:33:39 ◼   ► in a Mac, but the truth is that the text clarity is greater.

00:33:43 ◼   ► I mean, it's fine in the Mac, but it is nicer.

00:33:47 ◼   ► The text is nicer in Vision Pro in an iPad app

00:33:50 ◼   ► and even nicer, honestly, in a Vision OS app.

00:33:54 ◼   ► I did a lot of it with,

00:33:55 ◼   ► I was sitting on my couch for a lot of it

00:33:57 ◼   ► with just the keyboard in my lap.

00:33:59 ◼   ► I had environments on for some of it.

00:34:03 ◼   ► I had environments not on for some of it.

00:34:05 ◼   ► I had this thing where,

00:34:07 ◼   ► especially when I like let my dog outside,

00:34:09 ◼   ► I would dial in the environment enough

00:34:10 ◼   ► so that when I was staring straight ahead,

00:34:12 ◼   ► I was seeing the environment.

00:34:14 ◼   ► But if I looked off to the right

00:34:15 ◼   ► to the doors in our living room

00:34:16 ◼   ► to see if the dog was out there or whatever,

00:34:19 ◼   ► I could see whether the dog was out there or whatever.

00:34:22 ◼   ► And that was good.

00:34:23 ◼   ► I wrote some of it at my dining room table

00:34:25 ◼   ► with just a magic keyboard

00:34:28 ◼   ► and a magic track pad in front of me,

00:34:29 ◼   ► no monitor, right, but using the Vision Pro.

00:34:32 ◼   ► And that worked fine as well.

00:34:35 ◼   ► So I can say authoritatively

00:34:38 ◼   ► that one can write an 8,000 word review in the Vision Pro.

00:34:42 ◼   ► That is absolutely true.

00:34:43 ◼   ► Would it be my choice to always do that

00:34:47 ◼   ► for everything I write?

00:34:49 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:34:50 ◼   ► Probably not, but maybe.

00:34:52 ◼   ► I do a lot of those sort of like,

00:34:54 ◼   ► I'm gonna go write in a different environment things.

00:34:56 ◼   ► Like I don't write as much at my desk as you would think.

00:35:01 ◼   ► I do a lot of, I'm gonna go write in the other room

00:35:04 ◼   ► now that I've got Studio B or write at the bar on an iPad

00:35:08 ◼   ► or in the summertime, right in the backyard.

00:35:10 ◼   ► And I do that, and I used to do it at cafes.

00:35:13 ◼   ► I do that to get out of my usual workspace

00:35:17 ◼   ► and like shift gears.

00:35:19 ◼   ► Well, now you could just go to a different environment

00:35:22 ◼   ► environment and sit at the same desk.

00:35:25 ◼   ► And maybe sit in a more comfortable place

00:35:27 ◼   ► because ergonomically there are more places

00:35:29 ◼   ► that I could sit and work and have a screen in front of me,

00:35:32 ◼   ► like on the couch,

00:35:34 ◼   ► when I could do that with a laptop in my lap.

00:35:36 ◼   ► But like, one of the reasons I'm sitting at the bar

00:35:38 ◼   ► is that I've got an iPad in a stand

00:35:41 ◼   ► and that is where I do that.

00:35:43 ◼   ► And that's fine,

00:35:44 ◼   ► but also this might be a little more flexible ergonomically.

00:35:47 ◼   ► So I don't know,

00:35:48 ◼   ► I'm open to the idea of using this for writing,

00:35:52 ◼   ► but I definitely did it for this review.

00:35:54 ◼   ► I felt that was important and I think it was.

00:35:57 ◼   ► - I wanted to touch on a couple of things

00:35:59 ◼   ► that you said there.

00:35:59 ◼   ► So like, obviously the Mac display,

00:36:03 ◼   ► the Mac virtual display is not as clear,

00:36:05 ◼   ► but it's clear, but it's just a little fuzzy.

00:36:07 ◼   ► It reminds me of like,

00:36:08 ◼   ► if you use a non-retina display with your Mac, right?

00:36:13 ◼   ► - Right. - Or like a non-retina

00:36:14 ◼   ► resolution display on your Mac is what it looks like.

00:36:16 ◼   ► Everything is perfectly readable.

00:36:17 ◼   ► It's just not crisp.

00:36:19 ◼   ► - No, I did the thing where I actually sized it

00:36:23 ◼   ► for the size of my studio display

00:36:25 ◼   ► and placed it right where my studio display was.

00:36:28 ◼   ► And that allowed me to say, oh, don't do this, right?

00:36:32 ◼   ► Like if you've got a studio display,

00:36:33 ◼   ► you should use the studio display.

00:36:35 ◼   ► - Or make it bigger. - 'Cause it's not

00:36:36 ◼   ► as good as that.

00:36:36 ◼   ► But that doesn't mean it's a failure, right?

00:36:38 ◼   ► It is a, yeah, it's a non-retina

00:36:39 ◼   ► or at least less than what we're accustomed to thing.

00:36:43 ◼   ► And we know people who have multiple monitors

00:36:45 ◼   ► and those aren't all retina displays, right?

00:36:47 ◼   ► Like, so you can do it and you can get up close

00:36:51 ◼   ► and see it pretty well,

00:36:54 ◼   ► but that's not really how you would work with it normally.

00:36:57 ◼   ► From a normal working distance, it's lower resolution.

00:37:00 ◼   ► It's perfectly usable, but yeah,

00:37:02 ◼   ► it's not that high resolution that we're used to.

00:37:05 ◼   ► This will be more useful, I think,

00:37:06 ◼   ► if they add multiple display support

00:37:10 ◼   ► for Mac mode at some point,

00:37:12 ◼   ► 'cause then you could really emulate the,

00:37:14 ◼   ► I've got two slightly less than retina resolution monitors

00:37:18 ◼   ► in a side-by-side or an up and down configuration.

00:37:20 ◼   ► I know that people love that.

00:37:21 ◼   ► I don't do that, but I know people do love that.

00:37:24 ◼   ► That would be nice.

00:37:25 ◼   ► - I mean, so today I did all of my show prep

00:37:30 ◼   ► using my Vision Pro sitting in front of my studio display.

00:37:35 ◼   ► And I, 'cause I wanted to see what that would be like.

00:37:40 ◼   ► And it was, for me, just a truly fantastic experience.

00:37:44 ◼   ► So I had the Mac, which is where I was,

00:37:47 ◼   ► I had that as like the main screen in the middle.

00:37:49 ◼   ► I had Google Docs in there

00:37:50 ◼   ► because it's way better on the Mac

00:37:52 ◼   ► because Google, it's just not good in a web browser.

00:37:57 ◼   ► It will be better when they have an app,

00:37:59 ◼   ► which I'm confident they will at some point.

00:38:02 ◼   ► And I had like all these windows around me, right?

00:38:04 ◼   ► Like the Vision OS apps,

00:38:05 ◼   ► I felt like I had multiple monitors going on

00:38:08 ◼   ► 'cause I could have all of my chat windows, Slack.

00:38:11 ◼   ► - Yeah, I had messages over on my right.

00:38:13 ◼   ► I had Slack over on my left.

00:38:15 ◼   ► Yeah, music up top.

00:38:16 ◼   ► - And I said the Mac in the middle,

00:38:18 ◼   ► and it was where I was doing a bunch of stuff.

00:38:20 ◼   ► I was reading your article in Safari Vision OS,

00:38:24 ◼   ► a Vision OS Safari, because it was nicer to read.

00:38:27 ◼   ► But then at one point the copy paste stopped working

00:38:30 ◼   ► between my two devices.

00:38:32 ◼   ► But I really enjoyed that today.

00:38:34 ◼   ► And I don't know what to do about that in a way,

00:38:37 ◼   ► because as soon as I took it off and looked at my display,

00:38:41 ◼   ► it's like, oh, that is nicer.

00:38:42 ◼   ► But now I feel kind of like hamstrung

00:38:47 ◼   ► by not having all of these other windows around me.

00:38:50 ◼   ► Like that can be huge.

00:38:51 ◼   ► And I love being in the environment

00:38:53 ◼   ► because it's nicer than looking at the white wall

00:38:55 ◼   ► behind my desk.

00:38:56 ◼   ► So it was, I've got to try and contend with this

00:39:01 ◼   ► a little bit 'cause, yeah,

00:39:02 ◼   ► and I could feel it when I was reading your review,

00:39:04 ◼   ► you're talking about, you make a bunch of references to,

00:39:08 ◼   ► and I found them enjoyable about the idea of like,

00:39:10 ◼   ► this is gonna restart the iPad versus Mac war, right?

00:39:15 ◼   ► - The iPad wars, yeah.

00:39:17 ◼   ► - Because it's like, oh, there's gonna be people

00:39:18 ◼   ► that are gonna be trying to like force some stuff

00:39:21 ◼   ► and like maybe jump through some hoops.

00:39:23 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, I didn't mention Federico by name,

00:39:27 ◼   ► but like, obviously I think it's gonna happen with him.

00:39:29 ◼   ► But in general, like remember we had the iPad wars

00:39:31 ◼   ► where it was like, oh, I can do work on an iPad.

00:39:33 ◼   ► I'm gonna force it, I'm gonna push this.

00:39:34 ◼   ► I'm gonna explore this, which I love that

00:39:36 ◼   ► because it's really, hey, here's a new computing platform.

00:39:39 ◼   ► Let's see what it can do.

00:39:40 ◼   ► Let's take it out for a spin.

00:39:41 ◼   ► Is it all gonna be something that everybody wants to do?

00:39:44 ◼   ► Well, no, but that's not the point.

00:39:45 ◼   ► The point is to try and see where the edges are

00:39:48 ◼   ► and what the issues are.

00:39:49 ◼   ► I've always appreciated the people who did that.

00:39:52 ◼   ► I sort of did that to a certain extent,

00:39:54 ◼   ► but never to the extent that many other people did.

00:39:57 ◼   ► I look at this and I think, oh, same thing's gonna happen.

00:39:59 ◼   ► And we're gonna get the same arguments again.

00:40:01 ◼   ► And I think what I said in the review is sarcastically,

00:40:06 ◼   ► oh boy, can't wait to bring back the iPad wars

00:40:10 ◼   ► as the Vision Pro Wars, but it's 'cause it is so iPad-esque

00:40:14 ◼   ► that people are absolutely gonna try that.

00:40:16 ◼   ► That said, I had that moment, Mike, where I thought,

00:40:19 ◼   ► I don't know if I mentioned this last week or not,

00:40:21 ◼   ► but I had that moment where I thought, huh,

00:40:24 ◼   ► would I have bought that studio display for Studio B now?

00:40:28 ◼   ► Or would I have been just like,

00:40:29 ◼   ► I can just put a laptop back there

00:40:31 ◼   ► and use the Vision Pro when I wanna be back there.

00:40:33 ◼   ► And I think maybe that would, I wouldn't have.

00:40:36 ◼   ► I think maybe I wouldn't have, even though,

00:40:38 ◼   ► 'cause again, not that I would not buy a studio display,

00:40:41 ◼   ► I have one and I would not have one at all,

00:40:44 ◼   ► but I bought a second one for a second workspace

00:40:47 ◼   ► 'cause I felt like I had no other decent options.

00:40:50 ◼   ► And now I keep thinking, one,

00:40:53 ◼   ► I could use that space much more as a temporary space

00:40:56 ◼   ► when I need to use a Mac to record a podcast.

00:40:58 ◼   ► Do I need a big monitor for that?

00:41:01 ◼   ► And do I even need to work there at all?

00:41:04 ◼   ► I could work kind of anywhere with a Vision Pro

00:41:06 ◼   ► and a MacBook Air.

00:41:07 ◼   ► So I don't know,

00:41:10 ◼   ► but it's certainly a different set of circumstances.

00:41:13 ◼   ► - It feels like the Mac display is quite polarizing

00:41:17 ◼   ► in how people find it to be useful or not.

00:41:21 ◼   ► I feel like the more content I consume of people

00:41:24 ◼   ► talking about this, the more I get some people say

00:41:27 ◼   ► that it's like, it is the best thing

00:41:29 ◼   ► and it absolutely makes the device

00:41:31 ◼   ► and then others were saying this is absolutely unusable.

00:41:34 ◼   ► And it's very interesting to me to hear the polarizing of it

00:41:38 ◼   ► but I'm not really sure what's causing it with people.

00:41:43 ◼   ► - I don't get it.

00:41:44 ◼   ► I do, we'll talk about this later,

00:41:46 ◼   ► but I do think that part of this

00:41:48 ◼   ► is actually ergonomic related

00:41:50 ◼   ► because some of the takes that I've heard about Mac mode,

00:41:53 ◼   ► I can't square it with reality.

00:41:55 ◼   ► And that's the problem.

00:41:56 ◼   ► Everybody's welcome to their own opinion,

00:41:58 ◼   ► but I hear descriptions of things like the Mac mode

00:42:03 ◼   ► as being like really substandard

00:42:07 ◼   ► and blurry and artifacty and all these things.

00:42:09 ◼   ► It's like, I have a vision pro and eyeballs

00:42:14 ◼   ► and I don't see it.

00:42:15 ◼   ► I do not see it,

00:42:17 ◼   ► which leads me to believe

00:42:18 ◼   ► that this is not necessarily an opinion,

00:42:21 ◼   ► but instead might have something to do with somebody

00:42:24 ◼   ► having a vision issue or a light seal issue

00:42:28 ◼   ► or something that is not,

00:42:31 ◼   ► 'cause I do not see it.

00:42:32 ◼   ► I don't understand anybody who would say that it's unusable.

00:42:36 ◼   ► I think that there's a really good debate to be had about

00:42:38 ◼   ► since it is lower resolution, what is it good for?

00:42:42 ◼   ► But I think it is good if you are traveling with a laptop

00:42:46 ◼   ► and want a big screen.

00:42:47 ◼   ► And then not only is it a big screen,

00:42:49 ◼   ► but it's a big screen where some of the apps

00:42:51 ◼   ► you might have open there,

00:42:51 ◼   ► you can now open in Vision OS and keep your big screen

00:42:55 ◼   ► in the center for the very Mackie stuff you need.

00:42:58 ◼   ► I think it's kind of great.

00:43:01 ◼   ► I think it's one of the banner features of the product.

00:43:03 ◼   ► I'm not gonna go so far as to say

00:43:05 ◼   ► you should never buy a monitor again,

00:43:07 ◼   ► because having gone back and forth,

00:43:10 ◼   ► like retina monitor that's real,

00:43:12 ◼   ► it's 27 inches that's right in front of your face

00:43:14 ◼   ► is pretty nice.

00:43:16 ◼   ► I'm also a little bit baffled.

00:43:18 ◼   ► And again, I don't know whether this counts

00:43:19 ◼   ► as ergonomics or not,

00:43:20 ◼   ► but I've also heard some people who are go,

00:43:22 ◼   ► well, yeah, the problem with the Vision OS

00:43:25 ◼   ► is the field of view.

00:43:25 ◼   ► And so like you have to turn your head to see stuff.

00:43:30 ◼   ► And I think don't people, I mean, if you have two monitors,

00:43:34 ◼   ► you have to turn your head then.

00:43:36 ◼   ► You can't, are people staring forward

00:43:38 ◼   ► and then using their eyes and going side to side

00:43:41 ◼   ► and keeping their head locked?

00:43:42 ◼   ► I mean, you in the human real world,

00:43:44 ◼   ► you also move your head around in order to look at windows

00:43:47 ◼   ► if you've got a very large display.

00:43:49 ◼   ► It's one of the reasons I don't have a very large display

00:43:52 ◼   ► is that it sometimes seems like it's just way over there,

00:43:55 ◼   ► really far away.

00:43:56 ◼   ► And one of the nice things about Vision OS

00:43:57 ◼   ► is I can arbitrarily move those windows around

00:44:00 ◼   ► to anywhere I want so that I can look at them

00:44:03 ◼   ► instead of having a monitor that is fixed

00:44:06 ◼   ► and on a stand or something.

00:44:08 ◼   ► So I don't know, I am on the pro Mac virtual display side,

00:44:13 ◼   ► not like a hundred percent over there,

00:44:15 ◼   ► but I admit to being baffled

00:44:17 ◼   ► by some of the negativity about it.

00:44:19 ◼   ► I think there's a debate to be had

00:44:20 ◼   ► about when it's good to be used and when it's not,

00:44:23 ◼   ► but it's pretty solid in my experience.

00:44:25 ◼   ► I was impressed with it.

00:44:27 ◼   ► - I think the variance of opinions

00:44:31 ◼   ► on all things Vision Pro related is fascinating to me.

00:44:36 ◼   ► I feel like there is a lot of conversation

00:44:40 ◼   ► about things people feel they do and don't do.

00:44:43 ◼   ► Like I've heard a bunch of people now

00:44:45 ◼   ► talk about doing things on a Mac

00:44:49 ◼   ► when they're not looking at them.

00:44:52 ◼   ► And I don't think that's real.

00:44:55 ◼   ► Or maybe this is so different to me.

00:44:59 ◼   ► Well, I've heard this multiple places

00:45:00 ◼   ► on multiple podcasts.

00:45:02 ◼   ► John Siracusa was talking about it.

00:45:03 ◼   ► I've heard lots of people talk about this now

00:45:05 ◼   ► of like, oh, I'm always doing things on my Mac

00:45:08 ◼   ► without looking at them.

00:45:10 ◼   ► And I'm just not sure that that,

00:45:12 ◼   ► I don't understand how that's possible.

00:45:15 ◼   ► So like, I think that more than anything

00:45:18 ◼   ► with the Vision Pro and Vision OS,

00:45:22 ◼   ► I think there are way more divides

00:45:24 ◼   ► in the your mileage may vary

00:45:26 ◼   ► than any products they've made before.

00:45:28 ◼   ► 'Cause I think that we're bumping up against like

00:45:31 ◼   ► things people do, things people think they do

00:45:35 ◼   ► and things people can't think they do.

00:45:36 ◼   ► - Invisible, I don't even wanna say invisible ergonomics,

00:45:41 ◼   ► invisible ways of working with computers

00:45:44 ◼   ► that we all took,

00:45:45 ◼   ► we're all our own individual quirky people.

00:45:50 ◼   ► But I think part of being a person is being like,

00:45:55 ◼   ► I just do this thing.

00:45:56 ◼   ► We all do this, right?

00:45:57 ◼   ► We all do this, right?

00:45:59 ◼   ► And then you get a moment like this where you're like,

00:46:01 ◼   ► oh no, they do what?

00:46:04 ◼   ► And then there's that second layer, which is,

00:46:06 ◼   ► I don't believe that they actually do

00:46:08 ◼   ► what they say they do.

00:46:10 ◼   ► And there's no way to, unless you get a camera on them,

00:46:13 ◼   ► you have to take their word for it.

00:46:15 ◼   ► And I agree, I've had some moments where I'm like,

00:46:17 ◼   ► oh yeah, I just moved my pointing device

00:46:21 ◼   ► and without looking, I do a thing with a window

00:46:23 ◼   ► and I'm like, what?

00:46:25 ◼   ► I don't understand that, but okay.

00:46:27 ◼   ► Like, all right, I guess that's your thing.

00:46:30 ◼   ► I also was a little baffled by some of the criticism

00:46:32 ◼   ► that I've heard about selecting windows in Vision OS.

00:46:37 ◼   ► Now, the criticism that multiple windows

00:46:39 ◼   ► in front of one another on the Z axis is bad, I agree with.

00:46:43 ◼   ► It's if you get a window trap behind another window

00:46:45 ◼   ► and you're like, oh my God, and you can't toggle,

00:46:47 ◼   ► you can't command tab, you can't command tilde,

00:46:50 ◼   ► you've got to like take your window

00:46:51 ◼   ► and move it out of the way

00:46:52 ◼   ► and then get that other window and move it away

00:46:53 ◼   ► and then move your other window back.

00:46:54 ◼   ► And I hate it, absolutely the case.

00:46:56 ◼   ► However, I had great success in,

00:46:59 ◼   ► if I have a window sticking out,

00:47:01 ◼   ► of another window behind it,

00:47:04 ◼   ► being able to look at the back window and tap

00:47:06 ◼   ► and then it comes forward.

00:47:07 ◼   ► I didn't have any trouble with that.

00:47:09 ◼   ► - I have 100% done this constantly.

00:47:10 ◼   ► Like it to me feels just like the Mac, right?

00:47:14 ◼   ► That like, if there's a window in front of the other window,

00:47:16 ◼   ► I just click the other window and it comes forward.

00:47:18 ◼   ► And I've done this, the windows on top of each other,

00:47:20 ◼   ► you can see the corner of the other one,

00:47:22 ◼   ► you tap it and you can bring it forward.

00:47:24 ◼   ► - Yeah, if it's a little, I mean, the difference is this,

00:47:26 ◼   ► is the precision, right?

00:47:27 ◼   ► Like if it's really close, it's not great.

00:47:30 ◼   ► And I'm actually a little surprised

00:47:32 ◼   ► that they aren't doing something with Vision OS

00:47:33 ◼   ► that they do on the iPad now,

00:47:36 ◼   ► where if a window is entirely behind another window,

00:47:40 ◼   ► they slide it a little bit.

00:47:41 ◼   ► So it's poking out enough for you to be able to select it,

00:47:44 ◼   ► which is a great user interface thing.

00:47:46 ◼   ► - I think I kind of like that it doesn't do that.

00:47:48 ◼   ► - That it just leaves it there.

00:47:50 ◼   ► I mean, maybe it would be an option.

00:47:51 ◼   ► - I just wanna be in full control

00:47:53 ◼   ► of the placement of all my windows.

00:47:55 ◼   ► That's one of the things I love about Vision OS.

00:47:57 ◼   ► - I get that.

00:47:58 ◼   ► My only hesitation is sometimes due to nothing you want,

00:48:04 ◼   ► a window is completely behind another window

00:48:07 ◼   ► and probably I didn't wanna put it there and it's lost.

00:48:13 ◼   ► - In that scenario, what is the problem?

00:48:15 ◼   ► - A window that I want to grab is invisible

00:48:21 ◼   ► because it's hidden behind another window.

00:48:23 ◼   ► And for me to get it, I need to move a window

00:48:26 ◼   ► and then move another window

00:48:28 ◼   ► and maybe move another window back.

00:48:29 ◼   ► - You can also launch it again

00:48:31 ◼   ► and it just brings it to the front.

00:48:33 ◼   ► - Hmm, I mean, yeah.

00:48:35 ◼   ► - And I'm not saying it's ideal,

00:48:36 ◼   ► but I'm saying it's a thing you can do.

00:48:38 ◼   ► You can ask your assistant

00:48:40 ◼   ► or you can bring up the thing and just launch it again.

00:48:43 ◼   ► - Have you had the minority report thing?

00:48:45 ◼   ► I've had a few moments where I really felt

00:48:47 ◼   ► like I was in minority report,

00:48:48 ◼   ► where I have had a window

00:48:51 ◼   ► and I need to bring it into my vision more,

00:48:53 ◼   ► it's off to the side.

00:48:54 ◼   ► And I literally look at it and I go flip

00:48:56 ◼   ► and now it's close to me and I go,

00:48:58 ◼   ► (mumbles)

00:48:58 ◼   ► and I do something and then I go, okay, now be gone.

00:49:00 ◼   ► And I grab it again and I go flip

00:49:02 ◼   ► and I put it back out to the left.

00:49:03 ◼   ► I'm like, oh, that's the stuff I use.

00:49:06 ◼   ► Window management.

00:49:07 ◼   ► - Right, like music, I mostly just leave the mini player,

00:49:10 ◼   ► but if I wanna do something more,

00:49:12 ◼   ► I'll grab the mini player, bring it down,

00:49:13 ◼   ► open it up, do what I need, put it back.

00:49:15 ◼   ► Like I love spatial computing.

00:49:19 ◼   ► Like I love this idea of I'm sitting on my desk

00:49:23 ◼   ► and I have all of these windows around me.

00:49:26 ◼   ► I do kind of like the fact that they make the cone,

00:49:31 ◼   ► but I would like to be able to more easily rotate them

00:49:34 ◼   ► on their X axis, right?

00:49:36 ◼   ► - Oh, interesting.

00:49:37 ◼   ► Just slide them all around.

00:49:39 ◼   ► This gets us something that I think is on my top

00:49:42 ◼   ► on my wishlist of Vision OS 2, which is just,

00:49:44 ◼   ► I feel like there needs to be more window management

00:49:46 ◼   ► scaffolding, it's like, I understand it's a 1.0.

00:49:49 ◼   ► - Yes.

00:49:49 ◼   ► - And I say that in the article, it's like, I get it,

00:49:51 ◼   ► it's a 1.0, but clearly one of the places,

00:49:54 ◼   ► window management scaffolding, right?

00:49:56 ◼   ► Like it just doesn't exist really on Vision OS

00:49:58 ◼   ► because it doesn't really exist on iPad OS

00:50:00 ◼   ► and iOS with the exception of stage manager,

00:50:03 ◼   ► which is, this is not that, but the Mac has it.

00:50:06 ◼   ► And I kept finding myself rotating the windows around you,

00:50:10 ◼   ► like you're spinning a carousel is a great idea.

00:50:13 ◼   ► I thought about like Expose, where they all kind of show up

00:50:16 ◼   ► or being able to toggle between them in some way,

00:50:18 ◼   ► 'cause you're right, there are workarounds,

00:50:20 ◼   ► but like I kept thinking or spaces that save,

00:50:23 ◼   ► the idea that I'm like, save this collection,

00:50:25 ◼   ► but now I want it to go away and do something different,

00:50:28 ◼   ► but then come back to it later.

00:50:30 ◼   ► And like, I'm sure they'll get there,

00:50:31 ◼   ► but like those are all the things that struck me,

00:50:33 ◼   ► it's like, this is good, but it's so 1.0,

00:50:35 ◼   ► where it's like, nope, fend for yourself right now,

00:50:37 ◼   ► that's what you have to do.

00:50:38 ◼   ► - For me, the most important of all of them,

00:50:41 ◼   ► like I understand the idea of like having an Expose,

00:50:44 ◼   ► the most important for me is there needs to be

00:50:47 ◼   ► some kind of memory of my window placement with a restart.

00:50:52 ◼   ► - Yes, for sure.

00:50:54 ◼   ► - Because this thing, the standby battery is bad,

00:50:58 ◼   ► like it's bad, if you do not have it plugged in,

00:51:01 ◼   ► it will be dead tomorrow,

00:51:02 ◼   ► like I've experienced that multiple times.

00:51:05 ◼   ► And so then all of my window management

00:51:07 ◼   ► from the previous day is blown away.

00:51:09 ◼   ► And like what I ideally want is it to work like a Mac

00:51:14 ◼   ► that doesn't use Stage Manager,

00:51:16 ◼   ► 'cause Stage Manager by the way, every time you reset,

00:51:18 ◼   ► it just blasts all your stages into infinity,

00:51:20 ◼   ► you have to reset them all up again.

00:51:22 ◼   ► But Macs without Stage Manager,

00:51:24 ◼   ► I can't believe that that happens by the way,

00:51:26 ◼   ► considering this feature exists,

00:51:27 ◼   ► if you don't use Stage Manager,

00:51:28 ◼   ► your Mac remembers where your window placement is.

00:51:31 ◼   ► But that's what I want VisionOS to do,

00:51:34 ◼   ► that when I restart, it does that.

00:51:36 ◼   ► Otherwise, give me some kind of shortcut placement

00:51:40 ◼   ► or something, that I can say open them and put them here

00:51:43 ◼   ► and put them there or whatever.

00:51:45 ◼   ► I made a shortcut by the way, this is hilarious,

00:51:47 ◼   ► like I just wanna see what happens,

00:51:49 ◼   ► 'cause you can make shortcuts to open apps, right?

00:51:52 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:51:53 ◼   ► - I made a simple shortcut that opened three apps,

00:51:54 ◼   ► 'cause I thought what I could do is I could run a shortcut,

00:51:57 ◼   ► it opens my five apps and I just move them, right?

00:52:00 ◼   ► So it's like less buttons.

00:52:02 ◼   ► - Sure. - So it had three actions,

00:52:04 ◼   ► it was open Safari, open Todoist, open Notes.

00:52:07 ◼   ► What happened was it opened Safari, then it opened Notes,

00:52:11 ◼   ► but Safari was gone.

00:52:13 ◼   ► So like it was just opening one app at a time,

00:52:16 ◼   ► but like resetting everything, it was very weird.

00:52:20 ◼   ► If anybody's had better luck with shortcuts for this than me,

00:52:24 ◼   ► let me know, I don't know what happened.

00:52:26 ◼   ► But it was like, it just removed all of like the other app,

00:52:30 ◼   ► it was very peculiar.

00:52:31 ◼   ► But they need to have some kind of,

00:52:35 ◼   ► I think that's the start,

00:52:36 ◼   ► and then like window management in general

00:52:38 ◼   ► needs to be better.

00:52:39 ◼   ► Have you come across the force quit yet?

00:52:42 ◼   ► - Yeah, oh yeah.

00:52:43 ◼   ► - What a wild thing that that is there.

00:52:45 ◼   ► I don't remember how I got it,

00:52:48 ◼   ► I think if you press and hold a button,

00:52:50 ◼   ► I think it might, I don't know which it is,

00:52:52 ◼   ► you get a little force quit menu,

00:52:54 ◼   ► which is of all of the things to have,

00:52:58 ◼   ► that is hilarious to me, that force quit is there, right?

00:53:03 ◼   ► Like iPad OS doesn't have force quit.

00:53:08 ◼   ► You have multitasking where you can swipe them away,

00:53:12 ◼   ► but it is very interesting to me that like,

00:53:14 ◼   ► they chose to have a force quit menu,

00:53:17 ◼   ► buried within Vision OS is kind of incredible really.

00:53:22 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's a Mac like kind of thing,

00:53:24 ◼   ► yeah, you press and hold both buttons down

00:53:26 ◼   ► and the force quit comes up.

00:53:27 ◼   ► - I love it, I think it's hilarious.

00:53:29 ◼   ► - Yeah, get rid of that.

00:53:30 ◼   ► - So going back to your review,

00:53:33 ◼   ► were there any apps for you,

00:53:35 ◼   ► I would say actually during the review process

00:53:37 ◼   ► that were missing, like did you have any issues with,

00:53:41 ◼   ► like there was an app that you needed or wanted

00:53:43 ◼   ► for the writing of it?

00:53:45 ◼   ► - I think Discord was the one that I actually check in

00:53:48 ◼   ► on regularly that really I had to use the Mac to use.

00:53:51 ◼   ► I mean, I guess I could log in in Safari,

00:53:53 ◼   ► but I did not wanna do that.

00:53:55 ◼   ► - It's in compatibility mode though.

00:53:57 ◼   ► - Hmm, is it?

00:53:58 ◼   ► - Yes.

00:53:59 ◼   ► - I didn't see it there when I was working on it.

00:54:00 ◼   ► - I have it, yeah, I have it.

00:54:01 ◼   ► - You have it?

00:54:01 ◼   ► Okay, all right.

00:54:02 ◼   ► No, I mean, the truth is it mostly,

00:54:05 ◼   ► most of the apps that I needed were there,

00:54:07 ◼   ► that I use are there.

00:54:08 ◼   ► And again, iPad compatibility mode was helpful.

00:54:12 ◼   ► So speaking of iPad compatibility mode,

00:54:14 ◼   ► I'll just say it here, 'cause it's in the review.

00:54:17 ◼   ► I feel like the iPad apps are maybe scaled

00:54:22 ◼   ► a little too small, maybe.

00:54:24 ◼   ► - Yes.

00:54:25 ◼   ► - But I feel like the VisionOS apps are too big.

00:54:28 ◼   ► I feel like they're not quite dense enough.

00:54:33 ◼   ► And I know this is a real intangible thing

00:54:35 ◼   ► and I get why they're so big,

00:54:36 ◼   ► but I have a moment where sometimes I'm working

00:54:39 ◼   ► with both iPad apps and VisionOS apps.

00:54:42 ◼   ► And the iPad apps are like, here's all this content

00:54:46 ◼   ► in a little tiny box.

00:54:48 ◼   ► And the VisionOS apps are,

00:54:49 ◼   ► here's a little bit of content in an enormous box.

00:54:52 ◼   ► And I think, and this, it's related

00:54:55 ◼   ► to other window management issues that we should,

00:54:58 ◼   ► or app window management topics that we should talk about.

00:55:02 ◼   ► Like, I wanna minimize things, right?

00:55:08 ◼   ► So many of these VisionOS apps are so huge

00:55:11 ◼   ► that I can't keep them open all the time,

00:55:13 ◼   ► but I don't really wanna close them.

00:55:15 ◼   ► And I don't have a thing to do.

00:55:17 ◼   ► And like mini player, apps with mini players are great.

00:55:20 ◼   ► Like music, and I was using Long Play,

00:55:22 ◼   ► which has a mini player, so great.

00:55:24 ◼   ► And I had that moment where I'm like,

00:55:25 ◼   ► oh, I've got Fantastic Cal open.

00:55:27 ◼   ► It's great.

00:55:28 ◼   ► It's enormous.

00:55:29 ◼   ► - I can't believe there isn't a small version

00:55:31 ◼   ► of Fantastic Cal.

00:55:33 ◼   ► - I've already complained to them about the fact

00:55:34 ◼   ► that I want to reduce it down.

00:55:37 ◼   ► I wanna be able to reduce it down to the sidebar.

00:55:39 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:55:40 ◼   ► - Right?

00:55:40 ◼   ► But like, what I really want is not just for them

00:55:43 ◼   ► to invent a mini player.

00:55:44 ◼   ► I want Apple to say,

00:55:46 ◼   ► here is a way you can have your app minimize.

00:55:51 ◼   ► And if you wanna show something that is widget-like,

00:55:53 ◼   ► you can do that.

00:55:54 ◼   ► And otherwise we'll show like an icon.

00:55:57 ◼   ► And then when you tap on it, it springs back out.

00:56:01 ◼   ► And that's just not there.

00:56:02 ◼   ► Again, it's 1.0, I get it.

00:56:03 ◼   ► But like, I kept having those moments

00:56:06 ◼   ► because these VisionOS apps are beautiful,

00:56:09 ◼   ► but they are huge.

00:56:11 ◼   ► And the iPad apps are more compact.

00:56:14 ◼   ► And I'm not saying that the iPad apps are the right size.

00:56:18 ◼   ► I'm saying that I appreciated their compactness

00:56:21 ◼   ► when compared to VisionOS apps,

00:56:23 ◼   ► which to me seem to be huge.

00:56:25 ◼   ► And one way you could fix that

00:56:27 ◼   ► is to scale everything down a little bit.

00:56:30 ◼   ► Another way that would help

00:56:31 ◼   ► would be to have a little more of an affordance

00:56:33 ◼   ► to pop them into mini player mode quickly

00:56:37 ◼   ► when you don't need them at that moment.

00:56:39 ◼   ► And then when you tap on them, they spring back out.

00:56:41 ◼   ► And that is another window management thing

00:56:43 ◼   ► that needs to happen down the road.

00:56:46 ◼   ► - So I'll give you a couple of points in there.

00:56:49 ◼   ► For Calendar, I've been using an app

00:56:51 ◼   ► that I found on Mac stories called Day Ahead,

00:56:54 ◼   ► which is wonderful.

00:56:55 ◼   ► There's a beautiful little app

00:56:56 ◼   ► for like just having there and visualizing a day.

00:57:00 ◼   ► Yeah, I think the idea of having some kind of,

00:57:03 ◼   ► if it wasn't widgets, like maybe it could be widget,

00:57:05 ◼   ► but maybe it's also just like small apps, right,

00:57:08 ◼   ► that can expand would be great.

00:57:10 ◼   ► And VisionOS does feel like this really weird mix

00:57:15 ◼   ► of Mac ideas and iPad ideas together, right?

00:57:18 ◼   ► Where it's like, you can have the windows wherever you want,

00:57:21 ◼   ► but you can't minimize them.

00:57:22 ◼   ► You just close them like on an iPad, right?

00:57:25 ◼   ► Because they'll be ready for you when you come back.

00:57:27 ◼   ► But it's like, yeah, but.

00:57:29 ◼   ► - We thought the iPad was already a weird mix

00:57:31 ◼   ► of iPhone and Mac.

00:57:33 ◼   ► VisionOS is like, wait a second.

00:57:36 ◼   ► It is even weirder 'cause it is even more like the Mac.

00:57:39 ◼   ► - Yes, it's like hold my beer.

00:57:40 ◼   ► - But without the underlying 40 years

00:57:43 ◼   ► of Mac window management rules.

00:57:44 ◼   ► So it's sort of like, close it maybe, I guess.

00:57:47 ◼   ► 'Cause they just, and again, I get they needed to ship this.

00:57:50 ◼   ► I get that it's 1.0, but this is one of those areas

00:57:52 ◼   ► where it's like, oh boy, you got a lot of work to do here.

00:57:54 ◼   ► You got a lot of work to do here

00:57:56 ◼   ► because some of this stuff is really great.

00:57:59 ◼   ► And then you're like, okay,

00:58:00 ◼   ► I don't need to see the Calendar right now,

00:58:02 ◼   ► but I'm gonna want it again in a little bit.

00:58:04 ◼   ► And then they're like, well, you just got to close it, man.

00:58:06 ◼   ► That's all you can do.

00:58:07 ◼   ► That's sorry, that's it.

00:58:09 ◼   ► That's all you can do.

00:58:10 ◼   ► - The iPad compatible apps though for me

00:58:12 ◼   ► is where I have the majority of my eye tracking failure.

00:58:17 ◼   ► - Yes, I agree.

00:58:18 ◼   ► - I think it's because stuff is so small and close together.

00:58:21 ◼   ► And so I think there is a middle ground though, I'm sure.

00:58:23 ◼   ► Right?

00:58:24 ◼   ► 'Cause I feel like Fantastic Cal is an example of an app

00:58:29 ◼   ► that has a lot going on and I deal with it fine.

00:58:32 ◼   ► Like it looks a lot like the iPad app.

00:58:34 ◼   ► Like it's not like they spaced everything out way too much.

00:58:37 ◼   ► - No.

00:58:38 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:58:39 ◼   ► It's not like the future recedes into the background.

00:58:41 ◼   ► I mean, it is just a VisionOS updated version

00:58:45 ◼   ► of their iPad app, but it's good.

00:58:47 ◼   ► It just seems, it's big

00:58:49 ◼   ► and I don't want to keep it open all the time.

00:58:51 ◼   ► And I don't really want to, I guess I can put it,

00:58:53 ◼   ► hide it behind other windows or whatever.

00:58:55 ◼   ► But you're right, the touch targets,

00:58:56 ◼   ► I guess they're eye targets, right?

00:58:58 ◼   ► But the scaling of the iPad app, like I said,

00:59:00 ◼   ► I appreciate the density,

00:59:01 ◼   ► but it is where most of my failures happen.

00:59:06 ◼   ► I'll also say, I think it varies from app to app

00:59:08 ◼   ► because like apps that are super,

00:59:11 ◼   ► iPad apps that are super optimized for the pointer,

00:59:16 ◼   ► for hover and pointer support

00:59:19 ◼   ► are way better on VisionOS.

00:59:21 ◼   ► Right?

00:59:23 ◼   ► Ones that always give you feedback wherever you're looking,

00:59:27 ◼   ► which is the equivalent of hovering an Apple Pencil, right?

00:59:31 ◼   ► This is one of those cases where Apple is recycling

00:59:33 ◼   ► all these things as they move their platforms forward.

00:59:36 ◼   ► So they did the pointer support

00:59:38 ◼   ► that is also the hover support for the Pencil.

00:59:40 ◼   ► And it's now the hover support for gaze in VisionOS.

00:59:45 ◼   ► And the ones that do that pretty well are navigable.

00:59:50 ◼   ► And then there are other ones that do it less well

00:59:53 ◼   ► and that they're harder to use.

00:59:55 ◼   ► But I also agree that, yeah, in general,

00:59:57 ◼   ► the gaze targets are all small enough

01:00:00 ◼   ► that I find that hard.

01:00:01 ◼   ► Sometimes I was in Slack, I think,

01:00:03 ◼   ► which actually does a pretty decent job,

01:00:05 ◼   ► but I had a moment where I was trying to tap on an item

01:00:07 ◼   ► in the sidebar and I couldn't do it.

01:00:10 ◼   ► It was either the one below it or the one above it.

01:00:14 ◼   ► And I couldn't get it to look at the one

01:00:16 ◼   ► until I grabbed the window, moved it over,

01:00:18 ◼   ► made it bigger, stared at it for a little while.

01:00:20 ◼   ► It knows what it did.

01:00:21 ◼   ► And then it finally selected.

01:00:23 ◼   ► And that's a sign.

01:00:24 ◼   ► I do really appreciate, by the way,

01:00:26 ◼   ► iPad compatibility mode, I didn't mention this before,

01:00:29 ◼   ► has rotation support.

01:00:31 ◼   ► So there's a little icon in some apps that support rotation

01:00:34 ◼   ► in the upper right that you can tap.

01:00:36 ◼   ► And it goes from portrait to landscape and back again.

01:00:38 ◼   ► And so when I wrote all those words in one writer,

01:00:41 ◼   ► I was using it in vertical orientation.

01:00:44 ◼   ► So I had a big sheet of paper in front of me

01:00:46 ◼   ► and that was really great actually.

01:00:47 ◼   ► But I mean, the iPad compatible apps,

01:00:49 ◼   ► I guess what I would say,

01:00:51 ◼   ► I don't know what you think about it.

01:00:53 ◼   ► Like there are issues, but they're usable.

01:00:57 ◼   ► And I'm really glad they're there.

01:00:59 ◼   ► - This episode is brought to you by DeleteMe.

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01:03:04 ◼   ► Our thanks to DeleteMe for their support of this show.

01:03:06 ◼   ► And we'll AFM.

01:03:07 ◼   ► You love panoramas.

01:03:12 ◼   ► - I do.

01:03:14 ◼   ► - And I felt like- - They're really great.

01:03:15 ◼   ► - We shared a moment in your review.

01:03:18 ◼   ► You said, "Seeing a friend give a toast

01:03:19 ◼   ► at another friend's wedding

01:03:21 ◼   ► and being able to look around to spot other people

01:03:23 ◼   ► in the crowd, that was special."

01:03:25 ◼   ► So I remember this happening during my wedding.

01:03:28 ◼   ► I think Steven was giving a toast, my toast.

01:03:32 ◼   ► - He was. - And I saw Jason stand up

01:03:33 ◼   ► and walk and take a panorama.

01:03:35 ◼   ► And I thought to myself, "Oh, that's good.

01:03:36 ◼   ► I would quite like that."

01:03:37 ◼   ► And you sent it to me and I have that panorama.

01:03:39 ◼   ► I've looked at it multiple times.

01:03:41 ◼   ► And you sent it to me again recently

01:03:43 ◼   ► with a second that I didn't have, actually you took two.

01:03:46 ◼   ► And I opened that panorama and I looked at it.

01:03:50 ◼   ► And the panorama is odd in spots, right?

01:03:53 ◼   ► As they tend to be.

01:03:54 ◼   ► But I got a huge lump in my throat

01:03:58 ◼   ► because I was back at my wedding.

01:04:00 ◼   ► And it was very surreal and very emotionally touching.

01:04:06 ◼   ► It was really cool.

01:04:09 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, what was great about it is not only is it,

01:04:13 ◼   ► you and Nadine are there and Steven's giving a toast,

01:04:15 ◼   ► but like all these people I know are sitting

01:04:18 ◼   ► at these tables, especially the table, right?

01:04:19 ◼   ► In front of me.

01:04:20 ◼   ► So I'm able to see, I saw Tina, Sarah-Q,

01:04:23 ◼   ► so John's not there 'cause John is also shooting photos

01:04:26 ◼   ► at this point.

01:04:27 ◼   ► But like David Smith is there and I mean,

01:04:29 ◼   ► Gray is there and like David Sparks and I mean,

01:04:32 ◼   ► it's just all these, my kids are there.

01:04:33 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:04:35 ◼   ► That will probably be the biggest assembly

01:04:38 ◼   ► of Relay FM hosts ever, I think.

01:04:41 ◼   ► Which is very nice to me.

01:04:45 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's a fun thing.

01:04:47 ◼   ► And this is the thing.

01:04:48 ◼   ► I know that Apple has talked a lot about like the 180 video

01:04:52 ◼   ► and that they're doing their immersive video

01:04:54 ◼   ► and that the spatial video from the iPhone

01:04:55 ◼   ► and from the Vision Pro and the 3D spatial shots

01:04:59 ◼   ► you could do with the Vision Pro.

01:05:01 ◼   ► But the panorama, if you get a good panorama,

01:05:06 ◼   ► it really is spectacular.

01:05:08 ◼   ► And I have been shooting panoramas

01:05:11 ◼   ► before there was digital photography.

01:05:12 ◼   ► I was shooting panoramas when you had to have

01:05:14 ◼   ► special software to stitch the panoramas together

01:05:17 ◼   ► and then eventually like Photoshop added it.

01:05:20 ◼   ► And then eventually your phones just had a panorama mode

01:05:23 ◼   ► and boy, wasn't that nice.

01:05:24 ◼   ► But I've been doing it for a very long time.

01:05:27 ◼   ► And I have some that I shot so much that you can,

01:05:31 ◼   ► it's most of the way behind me too.

01:05:32 ◼   ► And depending on the angle and Apple processes

01:05:35 ◼   ► is the other funny thing, right?

01:05:37 ◼   ► It shows a panorama as a photo

01:05:40 ◼   ► and then there's a little like panorama button

01:05:42 ◼   ► at which point it enters this mode and it's doing stuff.

01:05:46 ◼   ► It is finding a way to place that panorama in the right way

01:05:50 ◼   ► and de-distort it and do all these things

01:05:52 ◼   ► to put it around you.

01:05:53 ◼   ► And it's not, I mean, you look up

01:05:55 ◼   ► and you can see your ceiling and you look down,

01:05:56 ◼   ► you see your floor.

01:05:57 ◼   ► Like it's not completely immersive, but it's powerful.

01:06:02 ◼   ► I was looking at a thing I shot about a year ago now

01:06:06 ◼   ► on a bridge over a river in New Zealand and like,

01:06:11 ◼   ► oh, it's so good.

01:06:12 ◼   ► Like I'm on that bridge again,

01:06:14 ◼   ► looking down at that bright blue water,

01:06:17 ◼   ► light blue water coming out of the glaciers.

01:06:21 ◼   ► And it really, I mean, it's not the same as like,

01:06:24 ◼   ► oh, now you're, it's like a memory because it's a 3D video.

01:06:27 ◼   ► It's not quite the same as that, but it's pretty great.

01:06:30 ◼   ► I mean, it is pretty great.

01:06:31 ◼   ► Not enough reason to buy this like on its own,

01:06:33 ◼   ► but like I think an underappreciated thing that it can do.

01:06:38 ◼   ► And then of course my thoughts immediately went to,

01:06:42 ◼   ► well, you can't make panoramas into environments

01:06:45 ◼   ► because they're not as immersive as that.

01:06:47 ◼   ► But I started to think one,

01:06:48 ◼   ► I feel like there's gonna be,

01:06:50 ◼   ► I wonder if there will be options down the road

01:06:52 ◼   ► to build a more immersive environment from panoramas

01:06:57 ◼   ► or from panorama mode, right?

01:06:59 ◼   ► Like iOS might get a thing where you shoot more of it

01:07:01 ◼   ► all the way around and it creates an environment

01:07:04 ◼   ► that you can use, not animated, not with sound,

01:07:06 ◼   ► but like an environment you might be able to inhabit

01:07:09 ◼   ► in the Vision Pro either to work or just to be in.

01:07:12 ◼   ► I wonder about that.

01:07:13 ◼   ► And I also wonder about generative AI

01:07:15 ◼   ► and if they might actually be able to do stuff

01:07:17 ◼   ► where you can take a panorama

01:07:18 ◼   ► and then fill it with generative AI.

01:07:20 ◼   ► 'Cause it's like probably mostly like sky and stuff

01:07:23 ◼   ► and maybe it fuzzes out at the edges

01:07:25 ◼   ► and then goes to nothing

01:07:26 ◼   ► or goes to just sort of a harmonious color.

01:07:29 ◼   ► But like, not only would that be nice to look at,

01:07:32 ◼   ► but I do wonder if it like some of these shots,

01:07:34 ◼   ► these panorama shots, I could work in that panorama

01:07:38 ◼   ► if it was just a little bit more.

01:07:39 ◼   ► So I don't know, I think they're great.

01:07:41 ◼   ► I do, you're right, I do love panoramas.

01:07:44 ◼   ► They're really good.

01:07:45 ◼   ► And I have them, Mike, in 1997,

01:07:48 ◼   ► when my parents sold the house I grew up in,

01:07:51 ◼   ► I shot panoramas of every room in the house

01:07:55 ◼   ► and many things outside.

01:07:58 ◼   ► And I made a QuickTime VR oven back in the day.

01:08:01 ◼   ► Back in the day.

01:08:02 ◼   ► And now I gotta get those files out

01:08:04 ◼   ► and I have them all on a film camera, by the way,

01:08:06 ◼   ► shot on a film camera.

01:08:07 ◼   ► So I've got the scans and I can rebuild those.

01:08:11 ◼   ► And those are gonna, you talk about having,

01:08:14 ◼   ► that house burned down.

01:08:15 ◼   ► Like, talk about having memories

01:08:18 ◼   ► and being able to be present in a memory.

01:08:21 ◼   ► I can't wait to be able to do that.

01:08:23 ◼   ► - And I've seen more examples of like,

01:08:26 ◼   ► and I've had like photos and videos,

01:08:28 ◼   ► I've been sending around like the spatial ones.

01:08:31 ◼   ► Sometimes they hit-

01:08:34 ◼   ► - I let you sit on my couch.

01:08:35 ◼   ► - Yeah, sometimes they hit.

01:08:39 ◼   ► - Sometimes they do.

01:08:41 ◼   ► - And like, I had a, we were visiting with a friend

01:08:44 ◼   ► a while ago and they took a video of me and Idina

01:08:46 ◼   ► and it was like, it was weird.

01:08:47 ◼   ► I watched it today, they sent it to me

01:08:49 ◼   ► and they were like, and it was kind of like,

01:08:51 ◼   ► oh, it's like I have a memory of myself.

01:08:54 ◼   ► It was very, sometimes they work, sometimes they don't.

01:08:58 ◼   ► I think I said this on last week's episode,

01:09:01 ◼   ► but I remember now, like the examples that I have

01:09:03 ◼   ► that I've taken, it is way better to have no movement

01:09:07 ◼   ► of the phone.

01:09:09 ◼   ► Like if the phone is still and there's movement occurring,

01:09:14 ◼   ► that is what makes a good spatial video.

01:09:17 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's a different techniques

01:09:19 ◼   ► and what works and what doesn't.

01:09:21 ◼   ► But I think that there is a, at least,

01:09:23 ◼   ► I don't know if it's the only way it works,

01:09:24 ◼   ► but a way that it works is that you are there,

01:09:27 ◼   ► it's still and you're in the moment instead of,

01:09:30 ◼   ► once you start panning around,

01:09:32 ◼   ► there's an author and it's not you.

01:09:34 ◼   ► - It also loses the, I feel like it loses the impact

01:09:37 ◼   ► of the effect a little bit too, when there's movement,

01:09:42 ◼   ► like that's caused by the camera.

01:09:43 ◼   ► I feel like it's just not as effective, I think.

01:09:48 ◼   ► But yeah, I'm intrigued to see the advancement

01:09:52 ◼   ► of this stuff.

01:09:53 ◼   ► I did today, I took a 3D photo of the desk in front of me

01:09:58 ◼   ► and then opened it and it freaked me out.

01:10:02 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:10:03 ◼   ► Because it was like, ah, my desk,

01:10:05 ◼   ► 'cause it also was like a little bit higher than my desk.

01:10:09 ◼   ► But it made my brain go weird for a second,

01:10:13 ◼   ► like I'd fallen, it was very strange.

01:10:15 ◼   ► I don't recommend doing that.

01:10:16 ◼   ► Or do it, but it's weird, be aware of that.

01:10:20 ◼   ► I've traveled with my vision probe.

01:10:22 ◼   ► I will tell you right now, I chickened out

01:10:25 ◼   ► of wearing it on the plane, I didn't do it.

01:10:28 ◼   ► And there were two reasons for this.

01:10:29 ◼   ► One, I feel like--

01:10:30 ◼   ► - You don't wanna be that guy?

01:10:31 ◼   ► - I don't wanna be that guy, 'cause that guy,

01:10:33 ◼   ► the idea of that guy had already proliferated enough

01:10:36 ◼   ► over the week that I didn't wanna be that guy.

01:10:37 ◼   ► Plus, we took off at nearly midnight, I had to sleep.

01:10:41 ◼   ► And so I just slept.

01:10:42 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:10:43 ◼   ► - And so I didn't do it, but I also feel like,

01:10:45 ◼   ► as time went on, it felt less important to do that.

01:10:49 ◼   ► But what I'll say is, the Vision Pro is heavy for travel.

01:10:54 ◼   ► It's not impossible, but that thing in a backpack

01:10:57 ◼   ► is not comfortable to carry.

01:11:00 ◼   ► - Did you have a case?

01:11:01 ◼   ► - I have the Apple case, yeah.

01:11:03 ◼   ► Which is also heavy.

01:11:05 ◼   ► - Does that fit in your backpack?

01:11:06 ◼   ► - In the backpack I have, yes.

01:11:07 ◼   ► I will say it actually fits horizontally in my backpack too.

01:11:12 ◼   ► I use the Bellroy Venture Ready,

01:11:16 ◼   ► I'm gonna put a link to it in the show notes.

01:11:17 ◼   ► If somebody wants a backpack where they can fit it in,

01:11:21 ◼   ► I was able to fit my dongle bag,

01:11:26 ◼   ► which is also a Bellroy tech pouch,

01:11:28 ◼   ► my Vision Pro thing, and my AirPods Max in a case.

01:11:33 ◼   ► Like a full hard case, it'll all fit in the bag.

01:11:37 ◼   ► So this bag is great for Vision Pro.

01:11:40 ◼   ► But then I got my laptop and my iPad in there as well,

01:11:42 ◼   ► because that was what I had on the track.

01:11:43 ◼   ► And that's a lot.

01:11:45 ◼   ► Like it's, you got a lot going on in that bag, it's heavy.

01:11:50 ◼   ► But it is a fantastic computer for traveling.

01:11:56 ◼   ► So when I got home, I wanted to finish and post cortex

01:12:01 ◼   ► 'cause it was done.

01:12:02 ◼   ► And that's still like multiple hours of work for me.

01:12:05 ◼   ► But I was at home, so I only had my laptop.

01:12:07 ◼   ► So I used the Vision Pro and then I had a huge screen.

01:12:10 ◼   ► And like logic on a 13 inch laptop

01:12:14 ◼   ► is not a great experience.

01:12:16 ◼   ► But I had like a 40 inch monitor with logic on it instead.

01:12:19 ◼   ► Like it really, like the Vision Pro is perfect

01:12:23 ◼   ► for making a small laptop more functional.

01:12:25 ◼   ► And more ergonomic, like it really is an excellent pairing

01:12:30 ◼   ► with those two things.

01:12:33 ◼   ► And so like it will be a great travel computer for sure.

01:12:37 ◼   ► But you have to be aware of the fact that it is heavy.

01:12:40 ◼   ► It is heavy.

01:12:41 ◼   ► - I'm traveling toward the end of this week.

01:12:45 ◼   ► And I'm looking forward to experiencing all of the issues

01:12:49 ◼   ► that come with it, pro and con.

01:12:51 ◼   ► I am very much looking forward to it.

01:12:53 ◼   ► - Yeah, I think you're gonna dig it.

01:12:56 ◼   ► I do, I think you'll dig it.

01:12:57 ◼   ► But you just need to be aware

01:12:59 ◼   ► that if you put it in a backpack,

01:13:00 ◼   ► like you're gonna feel it because--

01:13:03 ◼   ► - I'm sure. - Do you have the case?

01:13:04 ◼   ► Do you have a case?

01:13:05 ◼   ► - I do not have a case.

01:13:06 ◼   ► - Okay, you gotta get a case.

01:13:08 ◼   ► - I'm going no, I'm going no case.

01:13:10 ◼   ► I'm gonna go no case and I'm gonna see what the issues are

01:13:13 ◼   ► and then I'll decide.

01:13:14 ◼   ► I got to see the Apple case, the big puffy pillow.

01:13:19 ◼   ► Don't think I really like it,

01:13:20 ◼   ► but I'll decide whether I want a case or not.

01:13:24 ◼   ► - How are you gonna travel with it?

01:13:27 ◼   ► You're just gonna put it in a bag?

01:13:29 ◼   ► - Yep.

01:13:30 ◼   ► - Ooh, okay.

01:13:32 ◼   ► - I'll put it in a bag, yeah.

01:13:33 ◼   ► - You got bigger guts than me is what I'll say,

01:13:36 ◼   ► putting that thing just straight into a backpack.

01:13:38 ◼   ► It feels, I don't know if it feels delicate,

01:13:42 ◼   ► but I treat it delicately, if that makes sense.

01:13:46 ◼   ► - The main part of it's pretty solid.

01:13:47 ◼   ► There are those, there are the little bands and all that,

01:13:50 ◼   ► but I got, you know, I don't know.

01:13:51 ◼   ► I'll stick some socks in there and pat it.

01:13:54 ◼   ► - So today is the first day I worked in the studio with it

01:14:00 ◼   ► and I answered two very important questions for myself.

01:14:04 ◼   ► - Okay.

01:14:05 ◼   ► - One is, which I was really worried about,

01:14:08 ◼   ► how was it gonna deal with the terrible overhead lighting

01:14:10 ◼   ► that I have, right?

01:14:12 ◼   ► I've spoken about this on the show before, right?

01:14:14 ◼   ► That Mac webcams struggle with it.

01:14:17 ◼   ► It was fun.

01:14:19 ◼   ► - Nothing, no flickering, nothing.

01:14:21 ◼   ► So thank you to Apple for dealing with that.

01:14:24 ◼   ► And also I was wondering,

01:14:26 ◼   ► will my fancy keyboards plugged in via USB

01:14:30 ◼   ► work with universal control?

01:14:32 ◼   ► And they do, they work fine.

01:14:34 ◼   ► - Of course they do.

01:14:35 ◼   ► - But mice don't.

01:14:36 ◼   ► What is going on with that?

01:14:41 ◼   ► - Do the mice even not work in universal control?

01:14:43 ◼   ► - Nothing.

01:14:45 ◼   ► - Huh, interesting.

01:14:47 ◼   ► - So my Logitech mouse, it just stops at the edge of the Mac

01:14:50 ◼   ► and doesn't do anything.

01:14:50 ◼   ► - It stops at the edge, wow, that's wild.

01:14:52 ◼   ► - I don't know what the thinking is there

01:14:54 ◼   ► because mice work on iPad.

01:14:57 ◼   ► - Yeah, they don't like it.

01:14:59 ◼   ► - Weird.

01:15:00 ◼   ► - They think mice are afraid of vision pros.

01:15:02 ◼   ► - That was very, very strange to me,

01:15:05 ◼   ► but I was super happy that my nice,

01:15:06 ◼   ► I care more about the keyboard

01:15:08 ◼   ► 'cause I use a mouse and a track pad at my desk.

01:15:11 ◼   ► I use both and so I can just use that.

01:15:13 ◼   ► And also to be honest, I'm still mostly using eye tracking

01:15:18 ◼   ► than a track pad when I'm like going from window to window.

01:15:25 ◼   ► Like I just use the mouse on my Mac

01:15:28 ◼   ► and then I look at something on another window

01:15:30 ◼   ► and I'm using eye tracking and typing and stuff like that.

01:15:33 ◼   ► So I use that combo and I love that combo

01:15:35 ◼   ► that you have all of these different input methods.

01:15:38 ◼   ► It's like one of the things I loved about iPad.

01:15:43 ◼   ► Talking about that quickly,

01:15:44 ◼   ► I've had a lot of people say to me like,

01:15:46 ◼   ► oh, why is nobody talking about the fact

01:15:47 ◼   ► that you can directly manipulate an app?

01:15:50 ◼   ► Because it's not a good experience is why.

01:15:52 ◼   ► Like, you know what I mean?

01:15:54 ◼   ► You can bring an app to you and you can like scroll it

01:15:57 ◼   ► and tap it and that kind of stuff.

01:15:58 ◼   ► - Oh yeah, right, right, yeah, you can.

01:16:00 ◼   ► - It is not nice to do.

01:16:01 ◼   ► - I hate it.

01:16:02 ◼   ► - It's not a good experience, which is like the reason,

01:16:04 ◼   ► like people, I'm seeing a lot of videos made about it.

01:16:07 ◼   ► Like, oh look, you can do this.

01:16:09 ◼   ► It's like, it looks good for a video,

01:16:11 ◼   ► but it is not a nice experience to like try and scroll

01:16:14 ◼   ► and stuff like that.

01:16:15 ◼   ► - Yeah, what the videos don't show is that inside

01:16:18 ◼   ► you're touching a thing that isn't there, has no feedback.

01:16:23 ◼   ► Like typing on that keyboard is terrible enough,

01:16:26 ◼   ► but the idea that you're now tapping on the,

01:16:28 ◼   ► you know, it's not there on the invisible place

01:16:31 ◼   ► and not, and your finger just passes through

01:16:34 ◼   ► and when it passes through, it registers the tap.

01:16:36 ◼   ► It's, I hate it, it's awful.

01:16:38 ◼   ► - Yep, the eye tracking is great.

01:16:40 ◼   ► The kind of like finger tracking is not good, right?

01:16:42 ◼   ► Like, you know, so it is not a good experience to do that.

01:16:46 ◼   ► Like you can, but you shouldn't.

01:16:48 ◼   ► You really should be using all the other different methods

01:16:51 ◼   ► of input that they have.

01:16:53 ◼   ► - Yeah, agreed.

01:16:55 ◼   ► - What else would you like to talk about today?

01:16:57 ◼   ► - Oh, I didn't realize this, but there are some videos

01:17:03 ◼   ► in the Disney+ app that are high frame rate,

01:17:06 ◼   ► including "Avatar" and Disney has said,

01:17:08 ◼   ► I think "Titanic" is gonna go in there in high frame rate.

01:17:11 ◼   ► I, one of the things that we haven't talked about a lot

01:17:14 ◼   ► is that this device supports high frame rate video.

01:17:17 ◼   ► And so like the "Avatar" movies are in 48 frames a second,

01:17:20 ◼   ► 3D, and while it is, you know, high frame rate is weird

01:17:25 ◼   ► in a sense that you almost get that soap opera effect

01:17:28 ◼   ► a little bit, but "Avatar" is so unreal already.

01:17:33 ◼   ► And honestly, getting rid of motion judder

01:17:36 ◼   ► and having everything be smooth,

01:17:38 ◼   ► especially in these, you know, almost entirely CGI,

01:17:41 ◼   ► 3D scenes in "Avatar", it's really good.

01:17:44 ◼   ► I actually really like it.

01:17:46 ◼   ► There are moments where I'm watching "Avatar"

01:17:48 ◼   ► and I feel like I'm literally just watching

01:17:49 ◼   ► a video game cut scene, but I think that that's because

01:17:52 ◼   ► video game cut scenes are literally trying to be movies.

01:17:55 ◼   ► And this is a movie that's trying to be a movie too.

01:17:58 ◼   ► It's not trying to be a video game cut scene,

01:18:00 ◼   ► but there are those moments that I have that where I'm like,

01:18:02 ◼   ► what is this?

01:18:04 ◼   ► But the high frame rate video, oh, like again,

01:18:07 ◼   ► not for everything, it's got issues, but I'm curious.

01:18:10 ◼   ► And I would actually really like to see if whoever is it,

01:18:15 ◼   ► would it be in "Max"?

01:18:16 ◼   ► I don't know where the "Lord of the Rings"

01:18:17 ◼   ► or the "Hobbit" movies that were shot in high frame rate are,

01:18:20 ◼   ► but I'm actually kind of curious.

01:18:21 ◼   ► I know that people, a lot of people didn't like it,

01:18:23 ◼   ► but like, this is a device that's capable

01:18:26 ◼   ► of showing high frame rate and capable of showing 3D.

01:18:29 ◼   ► And I think that's cool because we don't have a lot of like

01:18:32 ◼   ► video viewing devices that will offer those things.

01:18:36 ◼   ► So anyway, I just wanted to mention that,

01:18:38 ◼   ► that it's actually in like a,

01:18:40 ◼   ► I think a Disney press release that they have these movies

01:18:43 ◼   ► that are gonna be in high frame rate.

01:18:45 ◼   ► - That's cool.

01:18:45 ◼   ► - I mentioned last week, by the way,

01:18:48 ◼   ► that some of my movies were in 3D, but not in 3D.

01:18:52 ◼   ► It turns out a bunch of people sent this in

01:18:55 ◼   ► and including I heard from somebody inside at Apple

01:18:57 ◼   ► who said that like, it's an issue with movies anywhere

01:19:00 ◼   ► where you buy it on a disc and you put in a code

01:19:02 ◼   ► and then it goes in your iTunes library

01:19:03 ◼   ► where it was not registering.

01:19:05 ◼   ► So the issue was it said you could play it in 3D,

01:19:09 ◼   ► but it didn't play in 3D.

01:19:11 ◼   ► If it was a movies anywhere movie.

01:19:13 ◼   ► And they seem to have adjusted that on the store side

01:19:15 ◼   ► where now it doesn't say you can play it in 3D.

01:19:18 ◼   ► Now it's still a real bummer because one,

01:19:20 ◼   ► I'd like it if I could, thank you very much.

01:19:22 ◼   ► There's probably a licensing issue there

01:19:24 ◼   ► where like the movies anywhere, you don't get the 3D,

01:19:27 ◼   ► like how some of them, you don't get the 4K upgrade.

01:19:29 ◼   ► You just have to stay back with whatever you bought.

01:19:31 ◼   ► That's kind of a bummer, but it's also a user.

01:19:33 ◼   ► It's still a problem because there's no way for me to say,

01:19:36 ◼   ► I would like to give Apple money

01:19:37 ◼   ► to get the 3D version of this.

01:19:39 ◼   ► It just isn't possible.

01:19:42 ◼   ► Like if you got it via movies anywhere,

01:19:44 ◼   ► now it's not gonna say it's in 3D for you,

01:19:47 ◼   ► but you also can't get it in 3D.

01:19:50 ◼   ► It's sort of blocked.

01:19:51 ◼   ► Now that may be a short-term fix

01:19:53 ◼   ► and there's a long-term issue

01:19:54 ◼   ► when they may be dealing with the licensing.

01:19:55 ◼   ► But anyway, a little bit of follow up.

01:19:57 ◼   ► That was what was going on.

01:19:59 ◼   ► It's a movie I bought on disc

01:20:01 ◼   ► and the rights aren't there for that movie apparently.

01:20:04 ◼   ► And so it doesn't get shown.

01:20:07 ◼   ► We promised to talk about ergonomics

01:20:08 ◼   ► and I do wanna talk about ergonomics a little bit.

01:20:11 ◼   ► I went to the Apple store

01:20:12 ◼   ► because I still have had issues on and off with Optic ID.

01:20:18 ◼   ► And I've talked to some people who have said

01:20:20 ◼   ► they think that that is because I'm too far away

01:20:23 ◼   ► and that my light shield is the wrong size.

01:20:27 ◼   ► So I reran the light shield measurement,

01:20:29 ◼   ► which keep in mind, I ran on the day I ordered it.

01:20:32 ◼   ► And it gave me a different size,

01:20:35 ◼   ► a smaller size of light shield.

01:20:38 ◼   ► It gave me the, I wanna say 21W,

01:20:40 ◼   ► which was completely sold out

01:20:41 ◼   ► because it's the most popular size.

01:20:44 ◼   ► I went on Apple support site.

01:20:45 ◼   ► They have the ability to ask,

01:20:47 ◼   ► they ask you a bunch of questions about your fit.

01:20:51 ◼   ► You can't just specify a size.

01:20:53 ◼   ► So I started like answering all the questions

01:20:55 ◼   ► in different ways to see what sizes

01:20:57 ◼   ► it was trying to give me.

01:20:59 ◼   ► A friend of mine who works at Apple suggested

01:21:03 ◼   ► a smaller size that is about the same size,

01:21:06 ◼   ► just slightly smaller than the 21W

01:21:09 ◼   ► that has apparently worked for some people.

01:21:13 ◼   ► And I did a swap with that.

01:21:17 ◼   ► So I'm gonna get that today and try it.

01:21:19 ◼   ► And hopefully that will be better

01:21:21 ◼   ► and I'll be a little closer.

01:21:23 ◼   ► 'Cause what happened was I took my cushion off

01:21:26 ◼   ► and that meant I was a little closer to the display.

01:21:30 ◼   ► It's not, without the cushion,

01:21:31 ◼   ► it's not gonna be comfortable for very long,

01:21:33 ◼   ► but I did it to see if I could get a little closer

01:21:35 ◼   ► and then Optic ID started working perfectly.

01:21:38 ◼   ► I thought, oh, okay.

01:21:40 ◼   ► - So that was the main issue for why you wanted to change

01:21:43 ◼   ► was because of Optic ID.