571: Adding Some Carrot


00:00:00   Wow, we're gonna get to bed tonight before 10 o'clock. I am very happy about this because Daddy didn't get a nap today. Oh, poor you.

00:00:06   I usually try on ATP days. I usually try to get a little snooze in and I do not have the chance.

00:00:12   This would be a lesson to me because I did cut off some follow-up and like we don't have time.

00:00:15   We got so much stuff, but I could have left it in. Oh no, John.

00:00:18   This is not the lesson you should take from this. The last thing this episode needs is more follow-up. Yep.

00:00:23   John, I hear we have some YouTube updates you would like to share with the class.

00:00:30   Yeah, as we said last episode

00:00:32   YouTube has a thing where they'll read your podcast RSS feed and make little quote-unquote videos out of each podcast episode.

00:00:38   There's nothing in the video except for the logo of the show. There is no actual video component,

00:00:43   but at least the audio is there and we did that because it's, you know, it doesn't require anything of us.

00:00:48   It's just an RSS feed like any other podcast and YouTube, you know, consumes it and does this.

00:00:52   It's like great because we know some people like to use, for whatever reason, they like to use YouTube to listen to audio.

00:00:58   And so now they can with our podcast.

00:01:00   A few updates on that.

00:01:03   First is that

00:01:04   YouTube will import the

00:01:06   the quote-unquote descriptions of the video from the RSS feed.

00:01:11   So basically our show notes that have all our links YouTube will import that. Our show notes are in HTML.

00:01:16   The YouTube podcast RSS ingestion thing,

00:01:19   I don't know what it's doing, but it ends up taking our HTML and turning it into

00:01:24   plain text filled with tons and tons of blank lines.

00:01:28   It looks awful. I don't know what it's doing.

00:01:31   I mean, obviously it extracts all the URLs and puts them out longhand in the thing

00:01:35   so there's no like link that you don't know where it's gonna go.

00:01:37   Everything is HTTP called like you can see the URL.

00:01:40   So it does that with the links which also lengthens it a little bit, but then it put tons of blank space in there.

00:01:44   So I wrote an automation to get rid of all the blank space. Then the second problem was

00:01:48   if my automation didn't run fast enough to sort of slim down the show notes

00:01:55   to get rid of all the blank spaces, sometimes they were too long and YouTube would truncate them for us helpfully by just cutting them off.

00:02:03   Apparently YouTube can host petabytes of video.

00:02:06   I forget what the absurd number is, like how many gigs of YouTube videos are uploaded per second.

00:02:11   It's some ridiculous number, but the descriptions are limited to 5,000 characters because they don't want to waste space.

00:02:16   You really have to think about the space efficiency.

00:02:19   You know, if you let everybody put, I don't know, like four kilobytes of

00:02:24   text in there, what's gonna happen?

00:02:26   Anyway,

00:02:27   and so I was fighting with that with my automation and then someone suggested that wouldn't be great if YouTube when they ingested the RSS feed

00:02:34   would also understand our chapters because we put chapters in the podcast because YouTube now supports chapters and wouldn't be great if they could just

00:02:42   take our chapters and stick them in there.

00:02:44   And so all this conspired

00:02:46   to make me eventually decide, you know what, I'm just gonna put a link to the show notes.

00:02:51   So it just says show notes colon

00:02:53   HTTPS colon slash let's say ATP fm slash one two three four

00:02:57   and

00:02:59   then you can just get to the show notes that way and they'll be correctly formatted and you'll see all them and they'll never be truncated.

00:03:03   Well, then the chapter stuff turned out to be super easy because I was already had a script that was modifying the description.

00:03:09   Apparently the way chapters work on YouTube is you just put some text in the description that looks like a chapter list.

00:03:17   Oh, yeah.

00:03:18   YouTube parses that?

00:03:20   Oh, the time you like put timestamps as text. Yeah. Yep. That's it. That's literally yeah overcast also parses that. That's their system

00:03:27   and so I'm like, oh great. So now I know what all the show notes will be.

00:03:29   So I'll just replace all the show notes with show notes colon link to show notes and then chapter chapter chapter chapter.

00:03:35   So for people who are listening on YouTube now you get access to chapters too. Here's one caveat though. To do all this

00:03:41   I had to use the YouTube API which is like, you know part of the Google some Google developer platform.

00:03:46   So I have to like get a Google developer account and say I want to use the YouTube data API v3 and

00:03:52   Deal with off and do all sorts of crap like that and then I'm writing my script and I'm debugging it

00:03:57   I'm trying to get it to work right and every time I did this I've been doing this for like four days now

00:04:02   I blow through my API quota

00:04:05   Like there's a number of requests per day that you're allowed to use and the first time I blew through it

00:04:10   I was like, I didn't know there was a quota. Well, I guess there's a quota. I'll just be more careful tomorrow, right?

00:04:15   But every single day I've worked on this I've blown through my quota within like less than an hour

00:04:19   You can I was like, I'll just pay the money here here Google. Here's ten bucks. Give me more API requests

00:04:25   I just need this for a few days to finish development of this thing after that

00:04:28   I'm not gonna need a lot of requests, right? But apparently they won't take your money. So you have to request more more

00:04:33   API access and there's this form that you thought it's like tell me about your application. What are you using it for?

00:04:39   How many people are using this? Can you send us your source code?

00:04:42   Why do you need to use this API if you didn't use this the API what would happen?

00:04:45   Like they just want to know so much about you. Like where are your parents from?

00:04:48   right now

00:04:51   Anybody about this script has anyone seen this script? What are you gonna use it for?

00:04:54   It's I just can you just give me more requests? And anyway, they came back to me today and said

00:05:00   Tell can you send us a source code to the script that you use to upload your videos what for the umpteenth time?

00:05:07   I don't upload my videos as I said at length last time I wrote to you and filled out your giant form

00:05:13   It's your feature. That's reading my I don't upload the videos. They're already there. I'm just want to change the descriptions

00:05:18   Oh my god, it's such I'm never they're never gonna give me more requests. Anyway

00:05:21   Final thing is you may be wondering why you blowing through the API request

00:05:24   Are you just doing something dumb on the first day? I was like, oh I must have just you know

00:05:27   Had some loop to loop too many times and burnt, you know, when you're just writing code

00:05:31   I didn't know there was a limit I probably did something dumb

00:05:33   But now I've realized that I have no idea how the things I'm calling relate to their API

00:05:39   Queries or whatever because as far as I'm aware and I've stepped through it in the debugger

00:05:44   Here are the calls list videos in playlist, right and it's 50 per page

00:05:48   So I got to call that 10 times because they have a paging system, right?

00:05:50   so that's 10 requests 10 or 11 requests to loop through all the

00:05:54   500 and something videos, right but that's five calls to the Google API function. I'm doing this in node, right?

00:06:02   What I think is maybe yeah, I'm calling a function five times

00:06:05   Maybe each one of those calls fires off

00:06:08   100 API requests or something and then while I'm looping over them

00:06:13   The only thing I ever do is I loop over the things that I've just got from this query

00:06:17   You know 50 at a time, right?

00:06:18   And I look at them and say do I need to update this description?

00:06:21   And if I do I call it update API once and I say update this description, right?

00:06:24   But somehow I blow through the my daily quota of 10,000 requests within an hour. I'm like, there's no way I

00:06:32   Made 10,000 function calls and now I'm thinking like is there some some internal retry logic that I don't understand or anyway

00:06:39   I'm almost done with the script

00:06:41   But of course I can only work on it for a few hours a day before I blow through my quota

00:06:44   So tomorrow I get 10,000 new requests

00:06:46   All right, see if I can like manage not to blow through all those but I did manage today to update all the descriptions

00:06:52   So they're all up there on the off chapters. Please do enjoy Wow. We appreciate your service salute emoji

00:06:59   By the way, here's what the limits are queries per minute 1.8 million

00:07:03   queries per minute per user

00:07:06   180,000 queries per day

00:07:09   10,000 what?

00:07:11   You can do 1.8 million queries per minute for a fraction of a second

00:07:16   And then you're done for the day oh

00:07:19   my word

00:07:21   Google well genuinely

00:07:23   I know I sounded sarcastic a moment ago

00:07:24   But truly I do appreciate your service because this is a pain in the tuckus that I am pretty freaking confident

00:07:30   I can speak from Arco and saying I would have given up on this long ago and said hey

00:07:33   You should be using that used to be anyway tough. No, I would never even attempted this right exactly. So again, we appreciate you John

00:07:40   All right. We appreciate you even though apparently you don't know what the back of a Mac looks like. Tell me about this, please

00:07:45   Yeah during our connector tier list thing

00:07:48   I had said that the the DB 50 connector was discuss you that was on the back of the Mac

00:07:52   And that's not the case. It was DB 25 which of course looks exactly like DB 50 but a little bit narrower

00:07:56   And when things aren't really to scale and a bunch of little thumbnails, it's hard to tell I apologize for this mistake

00:08:01   I think the last time I plugged in a SCSI DB 25 connector was many decades ago. So

00:08:06   What can I tell you we regret the error the offending party has been sacked John if you haven't heard this episode and don't know

00:08:14   What the crap it is we're talking about. What can you do?

00:08:16   You can go to ATP that FM slash join and become a member

00:08:20   We have these member specials that we do and they're silly and fun and the last one we did was ranking various computer connectors

00:08:27   It was a blast. You should check it out. Indeed. It was a lot of fun

00:08:31   If you go to ATP dot FM slash join then you can not only get access to this member special

00:08:36   But all the member specials that preceded and at this point we're building up a fair

00:08:40   Repertoire not repertoire a catalog is the word I was looking for and so you might want to check those out ATP dot FM slash join

00:08:47   Iowa screen sharing we were talking about how to help perhaps in a

00:08:51   Relative that is a bit older and less tech savvy or maybe just someone who in general who's less tech savvy and John you said something

00:08:58   That I would have called you on had I realized that you were wrong, but I thought you were exactly right

00:09:02   It turns out we were both wrong because as it turns out iOS does have screen sharing. Can you tell me about this, please?

00:09:09   Yeah, some people saying this was rolled out in iOS 15, although I think it might be older than that

00:09:13   I'm not sure when it rolled out. But yes, you can do screen sharing in iOS, but

00:09:17   screen sharing in the way of

00:09:20   They can share their screen with you so you can see it which don't get me wrong is very helpful

00:09:24   But you can't control it. I didn't think there was any way to control it. But then someone named Jenga said

00:09:29   There's no remote control unless you're on the same Wi-Fi network with the same Apple ID and switch control is enabled

00:09:37   well

00:09:37   Those things are probably not gonna be the case if you're trying to help a relative because if you're on the same Wi-Fi network

00:09:41   Let's walk over and help them with their thing right and the same Apple ID. They're probably not using your Apple ID

00:09:45   So it's interesting to know that that is possible to remote control it under this narrow circumstance

00:09:49   But with regular screen sharing all you can do is see their screen and then just try to talk them through it

00:09:54   Which is again way better than not being able to see their screen

00:09:57   But the beauty of the Mac one is you just get to take over because a lot of the times

00:10:00   They're not interested in learning how to fix it or what went wrong

00:10:03   They just want you to fix their computer and that that is made so much easier by just okay

00:10:08   You know hit the accept button and now I've got control of your computer and I'll fix it for you and you're done

00:10:13   Indeed. All right. We had a fair bit of feedback about

00:10:17   our slash my rant about Apple and their 30%

00:10:21   And I think John you had maybe not corrections, but some notes you would like to add

00:10:25   Yeah

00:10:26   Obviously we've talked about this topic tons and tons of times in the past and very often when we talk about it

00:10:31   For the 15th or 16th time. We don't say all reiterate all the same things

00:10:36   I know it sounds like we do but we don't actually say all the same things that we said last time and then people write

00:10:40   In to tell us about them and in this case, we got a lot of people coming back to say, you know

00:10:45   The the fee that Apple charges for its in-app purchases, but it's 30% or 27% or whatever. That's not for payment processing

00:10:52   So, I don't know why you were talking about stripe and how much they charge and that they would make a replacement

00:10:56   Purchase thing or whatever because Apple's not charging you for payment processing

00:10:59   They're charging for you for access to their intellectual property, you know hosting and distribution marketing

00:11:05   Whatever whatever thing people thought like they were we were explained to us and then presumably we would hear them and say oh

00:11:11   We hadn't thought of that. You're right. They should get 30%

00:11:13   And obviously the stripe comparison because stripe is a payment processor

00:11:17   Like what we were saying a stripe would do all the same things Apple does in terms of API's and so on and so forth

00:11:21   Right, but here's the thing and here's this is the reason I keep mentioning and linking my stupid blog post about this

00:11:26   that apparently is not clear enough for people to

00:11:29   Understand what I'm saying, or maybe they just don't read it which you know fair enough

00:11:33   But the thing is it doesn't really matter

00:11:36   What Apple thinks the 30% is for or what you think the 30% is for or whether 30% is actual?

00:11:43   Actually for whether it's for payment processing those for access to intellectual property or it's this that the other thing

00:11:47   None of that matters

00:11:49   The only thing that matters is how do people feel about paying the 30% the people who have to pay the 30%?

00:11:55   How do they feel about paying for it?

00:11:56   did they feel like that's fair price or did they feel terrible about it and and they resent it and

00:12:02   It's fair for

00:12:04   You to try to convince somebody who resents to 30% that they shouldn't be resentful

00:12:08   They just need maybe they just didn't know that they're actually paying for access to

00:12:12   Intellectual property and maybe you think you can convince them and then they will feel okay with it

00:12:16   But I can tell you that all the arguments put forward by people saying here's no

00:12:21   Here's what Apple's 30% really is for have thus far not proven convincing to the developers who resent

00:12:27   percentage and then the second thing I'll say is that Apple itself

00:12:32   Really does not spend any time at all

00:12:34   Trying to convince developers that 30% is the right amount

00:12:39   Like you see much more from people who are trying to explain on Apple's behalf what they think the 30% is quote unquote for

00:12:46   But how much do you see Apple making an effort to explain when they're not on the witness stand in a court case?

00:12:52   Why it is that they think they should get 30% and that I think might contribute to the dissatisfaction

00:12:58   Like that's what it boils down to do you think any answer they would actually give would actually

00:13:02   You know make people all of a sudden be oh, okay

00:13:05   I guess I guess I will pay it like I don't think the people who don't want to pay it

00:13:09   Would be satisfied by any explanation Apple could possibly give if Apple attempting to explain it at least there would there would be some kind

00:13:15   Of conversation. I don't obviously, you know, that's part of the

00:13:17   Here's the thing. That's why I was talking about game consoles Apple developers

00:13:22   Some of them resent the 30% but game console developers resent it less

00:13:28   Right, that's the 30% that they pay not the same

00:13:30   They don't resent it, but they resent it less and that must seem unfair to Apple

00:13:34   But I would say to Apple have you made any effort whatsoever to try to figure out the origins of the status action

00:13:41   Dissatisfaction and talk about it. Not that you're gonna be able to talk them into it or whatever

00:13:45   But the first step along that road is communicating about it. Whereas Apple's like

00:13:50   How about we just say nothing and continue to insist on 30% and that of course leads to more resentment and this doesn't

00:13:55   I know this doesn't seem fair. It doesn't seem like well, that's not you're not being fair about why do they not like it?

00:14:00   But that's what I tried to write about in that blog post like at this point with this going on for so many years for so

00:14:06   long

00:14:07   It's clear that for whatever reason

00:14:10   There is resentment about the amount of money that Apple asks for. Is it fair? Is it unfair?

00:14:16   Should people not feel that way should people feel that way the fact is they do and so far nothing

00:14:22   It hasn't it's beginning worse and not better and that may seem

00:14:26   Like not right to certain people but it is what it is. That's what the art of the possible post is about

00:14:32   It's like you may not think it's fair Apple. You may think you're justified but there is resentment there

00:14:37   It is an unhealthy relationship that is not getting better. So something has to change if you want

00:14:44   Resentment to go away and that's what I would say to all the people who say you don't understand

00:14:48   The 30% is not for payment processing. It's for X Y or Z doesn't matter what it's for

00:14:53   It only matters if people are okay with it and people are less okay with it then and then Apple wants them to be and

00:15:00   It fosters a relationship where there's this sort of distrust and resentment between the two parties and that has ramifications

00:15:07   Like for example division pro launching without a Netflix YouTube or Spotify app on it

00:15:12   so I talked about this a little bit on the talk show coming up soon, but I

00:15:16   think Apple

00:15:18   does not know how to either court developers or

00:15:23   To negotiate when they are not in a position of power, which is basically any negotiation

00:15:28   That's like because you know Apple what they know how to do is dictate and they know how to be fond all over

00:15:34   But when people aren't busting down the doors to get into their app stores and to you know participate in their new platforms

00:15:40   They don't know what to do. They don't negotiate

00:15:44   They don't really do a lot of outreach or or you know trying to build those relationships

00:15:49   All they do is manage when people come to them they and and even that it's it's really more of a of a dictation scenario

00:15:56   They're very controlled in their messaging and they don't get roped into arguments

00:16:01   They don't want to have which is just good PR, right?

00:16:03   But you're right that like the thing I was talking about like they don't spend any time

00:16:07   Trying to convince people that they should feel better about the deal. They're getting that's what they don't do. I'm convinced

00:16:12   They really do not know how to negotiate or build those relationships because to a large degree

00:16:19   They never really had to so much of of Apple in the last, you know, 15 years or whatever

00:16:25   During so much of that time

00:16:27   They have been in the position of power in the areas that they would need this the skill potentially

00:16:32   And so they would they really haven't had to use the use any kind of negotiation or relationship building, you know developer outreach

00:16:38   You know, even developer relations is is fairly minimal in its interaction with most developers

00:16:44   So Apple doesn't know how they just think everyone just comes to them all the time and and they seem

00:16:51   genuinely surprised

00:16:54   when

00:16:55   They put something out there and it goes kind of poorly

00:16:59   With some people in the community or with certain developers or whatever like I don't think they know what to do

00:17:05   Because they they literally do not know how to negotiate

00:17:08   They've never really had to in most ways and if you look at the ways that they are not in power

00:17:14   You know app stores for lesser platforms that don't have the you know

00:17:18   The the massive reach that the iPhone has or whatever else like if you look at you know, certainly, you know content deals

00:17:22   In many of those other areas. They actually don't do very well. They don't succeed very much

00:17:28   Because they don't have this skill

00:17:30   So when it comes to this, you know

00:17:32   The 30% thing like they are just so accustomed to being able to dictate whatever they want for the iPhone and have people

00:17:39   You know grumble and bend over backwards to accommodate them because the iPhone is such a big market

00:17:44   That when it comes to something like the vision Pro launching

00:17:47   No wonder so many developers especially especially the big companies. No wonder they're like, why should I work with you?

00:17:53   There's not the big audience here to make it worth it

00:17:56   So why should I give you more power when I'm kind of tired of what you've done with your power

00:18:02   And that's the apples usual move their main negotiating tactic is

00:18:06   Well, we'll just sell as many of these as we can if we make a good enough product

00:18:08   We'll make the market big enough that you'll have to pay attention to us and that's that is an important strategy and a good idea

00:18:14   It's just made more difficult by the fact that you don't have

00:18:16   As much help from third-party developers as you could have you had a better relationship. That's also not negotiation

00:18:22   That's literally just dictating to the market, but it is it is a form of saying a form of saying

00:18:28   Can we make this more attractive to you?

00:18:30   And one way to make it more attractive is that well we Apple it's our job to make a product that people want to buy

00:18:34   So they'll sell a billion of them that's on us

00:18:36   We'll do that and that will make the platform more attractive to you. It's not taking away the bad

00:18:40   It's not taking away the stick. It's adding some carrot

00:18:43   Anyway, one final thing on this

00:18:46   We also the last episode we were talking about the whole you want to use a link out to a third-party

00:18:50   Payment thing you can do that, but you still have to pay us pretty much the same amount. You always paid us

00:18:54   we talked about that last episode and

00:18:56   Some I saw some discussion online of people saying well given all of this given that it's just like the Dutch dating app thing or

00:19:03   Whatever like why would anybody?

00:19:05   Choose to do use a third-party payment processor because it just seems like more work and you pay exactly the same amount

00:19:10   so it's like

00:19:12   Even if they're complying with the letter of law, which epic says they're not but we'll see how that goes in court

00:19:18   How you know who would choose to do this it's like they've given an option and they'll have zero

00:19:22   People who want to do it and as we've discussed many many times in the past, but didn't mention on last episode

00:19:29   We were really right

00:19:30   The one remaining important motivating factor is when you send somebody through a third-party behavior processor or whatever have them pay on your website

00:19:38   Unlike with the App Store you now quote-unquote own that customer, you know who they are

00:19:42   You know what they paid with you probably have their email address like

00:19:46   When when someone does something through in-app purchase Apple owns the customer Apple knows who they are

00:19:51   You don't know you just get the money that you know the 70% or whatever of the money they gave you

00:19:56   But you know nothing about them, right?

00:19:58   That if you have the type of business where quote-unquote owning the customer in that way is valuable

00:20:04   You may be willing to pay exactly the same amount as you paid before do a lot more work

00:20:09   subject yourself to audits from Apple also now you can own the customer and what kind of

00:20:16   Business might it might it be really important that they own the customer probably businesses that are gonna make some money on the side selling information

00:20:22   About you or spamming you or doing other things

00:20:24   So yeah

00:20:25   There is a reason somebody a company might want to go through these hoops to do this

00:20:30   Even though they're paying Apple is like the same amount is just to get ownership of the customer

00:20:34   ownership of the customers information all that stuff and

00:20:37   with that in mind

00:20:39   I'm happy to report that the rumblings about how Apple will

00:20:44   Handle this forthcoming EU law about sideloading is that they're gonna be extremely jet. Oh, I'm sorry breaking news

00:20:49   No, they are not going to be extremely generous my mistake

00:20:52   They are going to continue to be petulant turds

00:20:54   according to the Wall Street Journal which writes Apple is planning to add new fees and

00:20:58   Restrictions when it begins allowing people to download apps outside of the iPhones closed ecosystem

00:21:02   Apple's approach to the EU law will help ensure the company maintains close oversight of apps downloaded outside the App Store a process known as

00:21:10   Sideloading the company will give itself the ability to review each app downloaded outside of its App Store

00:21:14   Apple also plans to collect fees from developers

00:21:17   Of course, they are that offer downloads outside of the App Store said people familiar with the company's plans

00:21:22   Who to thunk it? Yeah, I mean we don't know a lot about this yet

00:21:27   But I think anybody who is surprised by this I think is not paying attention

00:21:32   because we have seen over and over again if a regulator or a lawmaker

00:21:39   Passes some law that says like they have to

00:21:41   Somehow give up some of their controller money in the App Store

00:21:44   They will do it only kicking and screaming and only the bare minimum

00:21:48   They need to do and they will make it as absolutely painful as possible. So with the EU DMA and and you know forcing

00:21:55   you know sideloading by law I

00:21:57   Can't imagine apples going to just say okay

00:22:01   Well, I guess we have to allow it and just throw their hands up and say alright done

00:22:04   no, we've seen they're going to make it as incredibly hostile and

00:22:10   painful and expensive as possible because they don't want to be doing this and

00:22:16   honestly

00:22:18   For this particular case, like I feel very differently as we talked about last week about you know

00:22:22   whether apps should be able to link out to external payments, but

00:22:25   for sideloading and third-party App Stores, I

00:22:30   Really don't think this is a great idea for iOS. I am worried about what it could do, especially with you know

00:22:36   Imagine we don't have to imagine it's been in the news a Facebook App Store or excuse me a meta App Store

00:22:42   There are so many ways that can go badly for users and developers. I really don't want that to be the case on iOS

00:22:48   So I'm not surprised Apple is gonna be you know, probably very painful on this and in this particular case

00:22:56   I'm not gonna be upset about it

00:22:58   but certainly if you were just if you were hoping that

00:23:02   They would just allow you to like, you know

00:23:04   Download something off someone's website and that'd be it and it'd be super easy and you can totally bypass

00:23:08   the app, you know the App Store review process or you know code signing with Apple or rules or whatever or and especially bypass

00:23:16   You know any kind of financial arrangement with Apple?

00:23:18   I think that's only going to happen through a lot of painful lawsuits and legislation again down the road

00:23:24   But for now Apple is going to do the bare minimum they can and make it so make it so

00:23:29   Hostile and expensive that nobody will do it

00:23:31   It does make me wonder like the people who are writing these laws

00:23:35   Like this is just like an example of regulatory

00:23:37   Cap regulatory capture where the regulated company is really running the show here because it's just a bunch of rich companies and people who are

00:23:43   in sway to rich companies sort of

00:23:45   Arranging for them. We're gonna pass this law which looks good to our people but really behind the scenes Apple

00:23:50   You can just do whatever you want. You're still gonna get all your money. You're still gonna have all your control

00:23:53   It'll be fine. Just go with it or

00:23:55   Did they actually try to?

00:23:57   You know pass this digital markets act that would like increase

00:24:00   Competition for apps on the iPhone and just did such a bad job of it that Apple's approach as described in this rumor

00:24:06   complies with the letter of the law because if Apple's still controlling everything about it and still getting the same amount of money

00:24:14   How is that competition?

00:24:16   Like how you haven't made the market and like what was your what were you trying to do EU is presumably trying to increase?

00:24:22   Competition right people can't put their apps on the iPhone unless Apple says they can so let's fix that by allowing Apple to decide what?

00:24:29   apps can go on and collect money like I

00:24:31   It's fine. It hard to believe they would have done such a terrible job that all this would be allowed

00:24:36   But maybe they did and maybe it's just a bad law

00:24:39   Anyway, or maybe this rumor is not true or maybe this is what Apple wants to do, but EU will say no that doesn't fly

00:24:45   We'll see how it shakes out, but it is baffling to me, but I will say one thing just like I said before like

00:24:51   Why would anybody do this with that with the third-party payments the answer was to own a customer?

00:24:54   There is still one thing that this EU law

00:24:58   And this approach to satisfying it would provide that didn't exist before and that is and again

00:25:05   This is another assumption based on information

00:25:07   We don't know the assumption being that even though Apple gets all its money and gets to like

00:25:11   You know check the apps from malware and do whatever

00:25:13   Still I would assume that the whole point of this is that if you want to put an app on

00:25:18   If you want to put an app on your own App Store on the thing and Apple doesn't want that app to be distributed

00:25:23   They can't stop it

00:25:24   So like if you want to put up a Nintendo emulator or some other app that Apple refuses to put in there

00:25:29   You want to have a different web browser engine or something like that, right?

00:25:32   What this would allow is yes, Apple gets the same amount of money. Yes, Apple still does code signing

00:25:37   Yes, they scan from malware, but Apple can't actually stop you from

00:25:41   Putting up an iOS version of Chrome that uses the blink engine

00:25:45   For example, if they can stop that then this is totally pointless and I don't know why they did it all but that is the one

00:25:50   Additional thing that even this terrible solution would provide

00:25:53   If there's an app that Apple wouldn't let you put it on an iPhone

00:25:57   Now in theory you can get it on there through one of these third-party app stores because Apple

00:26:01   Well, I wouldn't say can't stop it, but Apple won't stop it

00:26:05   speaking of Apple and legislative and related issues

00:26:10   Apparently their workaround for the massimo related import ban on the Apple watch is software

00:26:16   So over at Daring Fireball John Gruber writes Apple refuses to say so but it seems clear that this is a software change

00:26:22   These new watch units still have the blood-oxygen sensor, but the sensor is disabled by software

00:26:27   This workaround definitely does not apply to the already sold watches even after those watches upgrade to future versions of watch OS

00:26:32   The reason why is that the ITC injunction is an import ban

00:26:36   Apple's banned from importing watches that violate massimo's patents units that have already been sold aren't affected by an import ban

00:26:42   Yeah, that's what we were wondering about last time

00:26:44   This seems like pretty solid info even though if it's not officially confirmed by Apple

00:26:48   And by the way, if you go to Apple's website and you go to the Apple watch page

00:26:52   You'll see a big blue banner on the top that fades to black after a few seconds

00:26:56   It says Apple watch series 9 and ultra 2 no longer include the blood oxygen feature

00:27:00   I presume you won't see that banner if you're not in the US

00:27:02   But if you are there it is boom right at the top of the page before it fades out

00:27:06   Never mind. It might come back. We'll see

00:27:09   We are brought to you this episode by

00:27:13   Squarespace the all-in-one website platform for entrepreneurs to stand out and succeed online

00:27:18   Whether you're just starting out or managing a growing brand

00:27:21   Squarespace makes it easy to create a beautiful website engage with your audience and sell anything your products your content

00:27:28   Even your time all in one place and all on your terms

00:27:32   Squarespace has never been easier to use to make your website and business take off. They now have this new fluid engine

00:27:39   This is a next-gen website design system from Squarespace

00:27:42   It has never been easier to unlock your unbreakable creativity you start with one of their amazing templates

00:27:48   These are best in class and then you customize every detail you want to customize so it really looks like yours you have

00:27:54   Reimagined drag-and-drop tech that now works on desktop and mobile you can really stretch your imagination online

00:28:00   With the new fluid engine built in ready to go on all new Squarespace sites

00:28:04   And of course Squarespace supports whatever kind of online store or business functionality you might need whether you sell

00:28:10   Physical goods digital goods even service products Squarespace has the tools you need to start selling online

00:28:16   Everything you might need is there things like flexible payment options credit card PayPal Apple pay buy now pay later service support

00:28:25   Everything you might need for a modern high conversion rate checkout you have analytics to back it up

00:28:29   Email templates to send out campaigns and stuff so much on Squarespace

00:28:34   You can see for yourself by building your site with a free trial at Squarespace comm you can build the whole site in trial mode

00:28:41   And see for yourself how Squarespace works see how great it is for you when you're ready to launch go to Squarespace comm

00:28:47   ATP for 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain so once again

00:28:53   Squarespace comm start that free trial see for yourself how great Squarespace is when you're ready to buy it go to Squarespace comm

00:28:59   ATP for 10% off your first website or domain purchase. Thank you so much to Squarespace for sponsoring our show

00:29:06   And then we have some information from some I'm going to call them optometrists, maybe they're ophthalmologists, I always get them backwards

00:29:17   I'm so sorry, but people I professionals I care professionals. Let's go with that

00:29:21   Todd's are well writes as further proof that you have a listener in every profession

00:29:24   I'm an optometrist there we go who has been listening to you since today's hypercritical and build and analyze

00:29:29   Here's some information about the math of focal distances if you're using metric measurements the additional close power is just the reciprocal of the focal

00:29:37   Length in meters if you're correct about the vision Pro excuse me the Apple vision Pro

00:29:41   Having focal distances of 1.3 meters

00:29:43   And you'll need one over 1.3 or about 0.7 diopters of additional power or add power over your normal distance corrections

00:29:51   So if you usually wear negative 6d prescription for distance

00:29:53   You'll need about a negative 5.25 D to see effort free at 1.3 meters if you wear a plus 2d to see far

00:30:01   You'll you'll want a plus 2.75 D

00:30:04   And if your glasses prescription includes a stigmatism this adjustment will only expect if effect the sphere power of course

00:30:11   This is assuming you want the lenses to do all the focusing work for you most people under 40

00:30:15   Who want for the three of us can all can do all the focusing they need to see things up close

00:30:19   And I'd even say many people under 50 whoa could focus up to 1.3 meters without additional add power

00:30:25   But trying to sustain that focus for long periods of time could become uncomfortable

00:30:29   I'd be curious to learn how the folks at Apple will approach this will they just use the distance prescription will they automatically adjust it

00:30:34   By adding 0.75 will it will it be age dependent for example under 40 years old no adjustment 40 45 year old plus 0.25

00:30:41   Etc I have a hard time believing that they'd want people to get specific glasses prescriptions that are adjusted to focus at 1.3 meters though

00:30:47   The easiest thing to do would would be to just extrapolate from the distance prescription

00:30:52   Dealing with people's reading prescriptions computer prescriptions etc would just introduce a lot of confusion into the process

00:30:57   Yeah, this this brings up one point that I saw all people asking questions about they're like

00:31:01   Why would it be a focal distance of 1.3 meter? No one's gonna have glasses that are calibrated to 1.3 meters

00:31:06   They're gonna have their distance glasses and their reading glasses for like reading distances with the add power that we talked about then I was

00:31:12   Talking about like what you can go to your eye doctor

00:31:13   Just tell them what normal distance you look at

00:31:16   The the important point that's put out brought up by Todd here is when you adjust prescriptions like if you have

00:31:23   You know regular eyes with lenses them even if you're an old person

00:31:26   You still have the ability to use the muscles in your eye to squish your eye lens into a different shape to change your

00:31:34   Focal distance like that that gets worse as you get older, but it doesn't go away

00:31:38   So you don't need a prescription exactly suited

00:31:43   To your eyes in a total relaxed state at 1.3 meters. That's where you say

00:31:47   Accommodation right like you could get that you could say give me a prescription and lets me see 20 20 at 1.3 meters

00:31:53   Without me having to do anything with my eye muscles, right?

00:31:56   But most people and you know have some ability to change their focal distance by using their eye muscles

00:32:02   It just decreases how much and how far you can go so you don't need

00:32:05   Glasses calibrated a prescription calibrated to 1.3 meters

00:32:09   You can have it calibrated any distance away from that that you can accommodate

00:32:13   By squishing your eye muscles to focus on that and again as you get older that

00:32:18   The amount that you can squish gets worse because I guess your lens gets harder or whatever

00:32:23   Because you're getting old and you're just getting crusty, right?

00:32:26   That's why old people need two sets of glasses because they can no longer

00:32:30   Change their focal distance as much as they could when they were young and healthy and vibrant. Yes, but anyway, hey

00:32:37   I'm still mostly healthy and vibrant as Todd points out

00:32:40   If it's near the edge of what you can accommodate like you really got to use your eye muscles to really squish your hard little

00:32:46   Lens to see it. It might be uncomfortable a long period of time

00:32:49   So you want some prescription that's close to 1.3 meters

00:32:52   But don't think that you have to get a prescription is exactly 1.3 meters when I was a younger person

00:32:56   I just had one pair of glasses and I could see every distance with them and I didn't have any add power on my prescription

00:33:02   I was a young person had supple lenses

00:33:04   I would say here's my prescription I can see right in front of my face and all the way down the road and that just changes

00:33:09   When you get older, right? So that's the important thing to remember your eyes do focus themselves. They have the ability to do that

00:33:15   Most people's eyes anyway, I think if you get like cataract surgery and they put like solid lenses in there

00:33:20   You might lose a lot of that ability. But anyway

00:33:22   so don't think you need some special prescription and I'm also curious about what Apple's doing because I

00:33:27   Would imagine they're just using your distance prescription because for most people with your distance prescription

00:33:33   You can do 1.3 meters for me. It's borderline if I put on my distance prescription

00:33:38   I can focus at 1.3 meters, but it hurts my eyeballs because I'm old

00:33:41   So that's kind of at the limit of my but anyway

00:33:44   Don't think you have you don't have to buy glasses for every focal distance, right? Your eyes will do some work themselves

00:33:49   It's just a question of how old are your eyes and how much work can they do then?

00:33:53   Jay khan k rights optometrist here. You mentioned the focal distance of the Apple vision Pro. Excuse me of Apple vision Pro

00:33:59   Hi, I'm Casey being 1.3 meters add powers are written as the inverse of a meter or 1 over 1.3

00:34:05   Which is about plus 0.75

00:34:06   So people looking for a typical single vision correction at 1.3 meters would would be their distance prescription plus 0.75

00:34:13   We typically add or excuse me

00:34:14   We typically test add powers at 40 centimeters making 1 over 0.4 or plus 2.5 a common reader prescription

00:34:22   However, this all assumes the patient has no accommodation or eyes focusing power that they are adding younger

00:34:28   Thank you. Thankfully a j khan k provided a

00:34:31   Pronunciation guide which I will now butcher younger presby oops

00:34:35   Still can accommodate or focus some so the bifocal strength is less. I think that John this is what you were talking about

00:34:41   Interestingly the Apple website instructs people to pick the reading insert that matches their prescription

00:34:46   So I'm sure that if the lenses are compensating for the difference in the Apple vision Pro

00:34:50   Sorry in Apple vision Pro focal length versus how it's typically measured either way

00:34:54   I'm really curious to hear more about the vision. Sorry the about Apple vision Pro insert process is so awkward

00:35:00   Why do they make us do this as well as feedback on the visual experience? Also, it's worth noting. I didn't realize this until

00:35:05   Just earlier today when I was doing research for the episode

00:35:09   I there are two different kinds of inserts and I think we're gonna talk more about this later

00:35:14   But there's reader inserts and that's apples words where you just I guess you kind of just tell them what kind of a script you want

00:35:20   It's like the kind of glasses you could buy the drugstore

00:35:22   Yeah, cuz you don't need a prescription to buy reading glasses in the US

00:35:25   You just used you just know I'm a plus 1.5 or whatever, you know, right?

00:35:29   We're right and then there's the what we have already been talking about the like full-on scripted or prescription

00:35:35   inserts which is what

00:35:37   What I think Todd's are well was talking about and it sounds like jcon K is more talking about the reader inserts

00:35:44   I wish I had given that context before I apologize. But anyway, there you have it

00:35:48   Let's talk vision Pro baby. So the pre-orders have happened

00:35:53   I did notice by the way that the URL for the vision Pro is not Apple comm vision Pro but rather

00:36:00   Apple comm slash Apple - vision - Pro because of course, but nevertheless pre-orders happened

00:36:07   We'll talk about what we did or did not order in a minute and whether or not we caved or you're kept up to our

00:36:12   Theories from last week, but let's go about let's go through what was available to order

00:36:18   Now there were three storage tiers. The default was 256 gigs which came in at three thousand four hundred ninety nine dollars then

00:36:25   512 gigs so doubling that is an additional two hundred dollars to basically 37 hundred bucks and a terabyte is

00:36:32   Plus four hundred dollars. So doubling it again

00:36:35   So a total of thirty nine hundred dollars, which is a lot of money then Apple care plus is

00:36:42   $500 or maybe $4.99 or alternatively 25 bucks a month

00:36:46   And then there's a litany of accessories so you can order so gentlemen, please jump in and interrupt me when you're ready

00:36:51   We start with an extra battery. That is $200. There's a travel case a bespoke travel case, which is also

00:36:59   200 flippin dollars. It's like optioning a Porsche. Everything is at least $200. Yeah, right. Yeah, it's so true

00:37:06   It's so true. Yeah, the travel case in particular like woo. That's that's a lot of money for that made that of $1 bills

00:37:12   And unknowingly I knew that I think was spigot-speaking whatever they're called came out with a travel case

00:37:19   that was something like 30 to 50 bucks and I saw that it was a thing and

00:37:23   If I had ordered a vision Pro, I should have ordered it

00:37:27   And so I regret not having done so but that's neither here nor there. Don't worry

00:37:31   Like I mean so keep in mind also like, you know stuff that's not proprietary to the vision Pro like a case

00:37:36   You know anybody can make a case very easily for this or a battery probably possible

00:37:40   Well, I don't know. I think it has a custom connector. We'll see how it goes

00:37:44   Yeah, but anyway, like any of these things like that, you're basically paying for

00:37:48   Day one, you know Apple nice version of this. It's always gonna be a huge premium

00:37:53   Whereas if you just wait a few months at most you'll be able to buy like, you know

00:37:57   A million thirty dollar versions on Amazon of things like the travel case and stuff like that

00:38:01   Yeah, I looked on Amazon to see if there was anything there yet

00:38:04   I mean look like I know what you got you in a second of like the Belkin battery holder

00:38:10   Which is basically a plastic bracket for the battery. That's $50 for your $200 battery. Yes

00:38:15   Well, but that's barely third-party yeah, they work with Apple on this for sure

00:38:22   But you can get a Belkin piece of plastic with a liquid with like, you know

00:38:26   a belt clip for the battery for

00:38:29   $50 because of course the battery

00:38:31   In typical Apple design the battery is just a smooth featureless blob of metal

00:38:37   And you can sell even like even in the vision Pro travel case for $200 to hold the battery

00:38:42   They have to like strap it in because they designed this blob of the battery that has zero way to attach anything to it

00:38:50   So you like so the only ways to attach it to things or to attach things to it are incredibly

00:38:55   Inelegant wraparound or you know straps or plastic kind of things like they couldn't have just put like a mounting hole or a slot

00:39:03   Oh, it's just like the air tag. It's like you make a robotic core you add what you want to it

00:39:08   But we're not gonna tell you need a clip. What if you just want a slippery little stone?

00:39:11   You can't make it smaller, but you can always make it bigger buy this $50 case. All right

00:39:16   All right, so then light seals are $200 apiece. So now let's look at this here

00:39:21   We have a piece of electronics the battery

00:39:23   We have a piece of cloth the case and we have a cushion II thing. All of these things are

00:39:28   $200 really these are equally valuable equally

00:39:33   Just the light seal that seems especially egregious because it's like it's a wear part

00:39:39   It is well not I mean the thing on the front actually it's not the cushion

00:39:42   Yeah, the cushion is what touches your face. Oh, if you're thinking by the way, Oh light seal

00:39:46   That's the thing that goes in your face. No, it's an extra $30 to get a complete thing that goes in your face

00:39:51   No, no, it says it says it includes the cushions in two sizes. All right, all right replacement cushions are 30 bucks

00:39:55   Yeah

00:39:55   but it but like if

00:39:57   First if for instance you need to change the size of the light seal like if you're if you're adding another person to it or giving

00:40:04   It to someone else or selling it to someone else. They probably have to spend $200

00:40:08   It's bananas and it's just like I mean, what is this made of it's like, you know, some probably some kind of like, you know

00:40:17   Rigid, you know plastic frame with cloth wrapped around it. It's 80% recycled material. I mean

00:40:24   For what it's worth I do I don't really begrudge Apple for this being not cheap, but this is quite expensive

00:40:30   So, yeah, I mean, I don't know what to make of it

00:40:32   But anyway, so the light seal which by the way a friend of the show Quinn Nelson pointed out to me somebody m1

00:40:37   Astra on on Twitter pointed out there appear to be according to this individual

00:40:42   28 light seal sizes my world. That's why they don't list them

00:40:47   I put the sizes here, but when you look at the light seal when you're trying to buy it

00:40:50   It says what size is available. They're gonna make you measure your face with their scanner thing

00:40:54   You don't get to pick from a pop-up menu of 28 sizes you used anyway

00:40:58   What it gives you is like a number and a letter like, you know, we'll talk about it with the ordering process later

00:41:03   But like it just tells you the size and presumably when you go to the store

00:41:06   They'll do the same thing scan your face with the face ID scanner and then it comes up with the size and obviously if you're at

00:41:11   The store you could probably try it on if you're doing a tryout thing and decide it doesn't feel right or whatever

00:41:15   But yeah a lot of sizes

00:41:17   Indeed then the light so cushion is discussed is $29 30 bucks sizes and and plus W and W plus I guess

00:41:24   Normal and why narrow and narrow and wide not normal. Let's not be normative. It's narrow and wide then we have these solo knit band

00:41:32   So this is the one that goes behind your head of a non mistake

00:41:35   It's the one that the one that looks like it's the one Apple wanted to me. Yeah, it's the one that looks cool

00:41:39   It looks less cumbersome

00:41:41   Let's slap together and in the last minute, all right

00:41:45   so that's a hundred bucks which honestly that seems more in line with what I would expect because that

00:41:50   Appears to be a relatively complex thing to make it's it's an inert piece of fabric

00:41:55   It has a knob on the side, all right sure

00:42:01   Okay hundred dollars and it does seem it does seem complicated to construct

00:42:04   But yeah hundred bucks in size is small medium or large

00:42:06   Then there's the dual loop band now this one to your point John does look like they threw it together at the last minute

00:42:11   Got twice as many loops. It's the same price. What a bargain

00:42:15   It's also small medium and large then the optical inserts for reader style are

00:42:19   $100 optical inserts full-on prescription style are

00:42:23   $150 and both of those are for pairs so hundred dollars for a pair

00:42:27   $150 for a pair and just to be clear when you buy the vision Pro you get a battery you get a light seal with a

00:42:33   Cushion you get the solo band and the dual loop band. You don't get the optical inserts of any kind

00:42:39   So it's not like you have to add all these numbers that you put up together you pick your storage size

00:42:42   Which who knows how anybody knows what storage size to pick because we don't really know what we're gonna be storing on it

00:42:47   And then if you want a travel case you can add that on and if you if you need optical inserts

00:42:53   You can add them on but everything else comes in the box with it

00:42:56   So it does have a lot of stuff like it does come with both the straps, which is nice

00:42:59   You don't have to pick one of them. Yes at these prices. It comes with $600 of accessories in the box

00:43:03   Yeah, well can't afford not to buy one. Oh my gosh. You're not kidding. Are you holy smokes? No. I'm not oh

00:43:08   So Marco, would you order I got the base model?

00:43:12   What?

00:43:13   You I didn't get any glasses. I didn't get any extra storage. Do you not need glasses with it?

00:43:19   I don't think so

00:43:20   So, you know if we're correct that we're roughly doing like a you know, 1.3 meter focus distance here

00:43:26   I don't need the only glasses. I need a reading glasses for up-close stuff and my my minimum focus distance is

00:43:32   Still less than my arm length. So I think I am fine

00:43:38   I don't think I'm gonna need any kind of reader insert

00:43:40   But just if for some reason I do I can always just get those afterwards. Yeah

00:43:43   Well, you heard it here first Marco bought the base model of something. I know I am shocked on purpose for himself

00:43:50   No, I know tell so I'll tell you why so okay

00:43:53   First of all, I didn't get Apple care because it's $500 and I don't see myself

00:43:59   Taking the vision Pro many places

00:44:02   And I think by the time I am using the platform that much if that time ever comes

00:44:08   There will probably be another model out that will probably want to upgrade to say because I think this is again

00:44:13   I think it's gonna be a fairly slow build up in like the app ecosystem and stuff like that

00:44:17   So I didn't necessarily think Apple care wasn't it was worth it for $500

00:44:21   Also, I'm pretty careful with my stuff most of the time so I don't see myself breaking it

00:44:24   anyway, and then this on the storage tiers, I got the 256 base model because I'm

00:44:29   Considering this basically like an iPad and I think like how do I use iPads?

00:44:36   I don't foresee myself

00:44:38   loading it up with a whole bunch of stuff to take on a plane that would actually

00:44:42   Exceed that level and if it's anything other than like loading it up with media

00:44:47   I don't know what I would use that much space for

00:44:49   You know, it's like I didn't want to like super option up this one and then have all these resources

00:44:56   I never used and then when I want to buy the next one

00:44:59   That's even better in two years to have invested so much in this one for stuff. I never used

00:45:03   Oh, I totally I don't think you should be like ashamed or kicking yourself or whatever about getting this is out of character

00:45:09   It's yeah, it's just extremely out of character and I'm very proud of you

00:45:12   Well, I mean and you know when I buy iPads and stuff, I don't I don't ramp up the stores that much

00:45:16   Yeah, but that's I mean, it's kind of like, you know, you like you said you you know, how you're gonna use an iPad

00:45:22   It's a known quantity. I think that's the problem with the storage in this one

00:45:24   Nobody knows like is storage gonna be important or is it gonna be like the Apple TV where it is mostly a non-issue

00:45:29   We don't know. We don't know the app ecosystem

00:45:31   Look gonna look like and so everyone especially when you see these prices

00:45:34   You're like, let me just get the base one like it's cuz like you said mark if it turns out that you're wrong

00:45:39   You're like, oh I shouldn't have got that one. It's constantly being filled up by the time you're annoyed by it

00:45:42   You're just gonna get the next model anyway, so yeah, and I mean and to be fair like I do expect

00:45:48   Media for this is going to be large, you know, if they had a 128 I wouldn't have gotten that one

00:45:54   Yeah, yeah, like a 3d movie

00:45:56   There's gotta have basically a separate movie for each eye or even you know, what I what I expect to enjoy on this a lot

00:46:02   Is like immersive experiences put me on a mountaintop or whatever that I expect to enjoy a lot

00:46:07   But I mean how many of those am I gonna have on there at once? Like how big can they possibly be? I think

00:46:13   200 gigs of free space should be plenty for what will for my purposes

00:46:19   Mostly be a dev kit and a messing around occasionally kind of device

00:46:23   Well, we still have like questions like mmm, but what if you turn on iMessage in the cloud? Oh, well your storage is gone now

00:46:29   That's dumping a problem because I message gives you lots of ways to control how much space takes up your devices

00:46:34   So don't worry. It'll be fine. No, it doesn't it just takes all your space and there's nothing you can do

00:46:39   Okay. All right. So for me, I also ordered the base model. I did not get any accessories

00:46:46   I did not get Apple care

00:46:48   Although I'm thinking I might actually add Apple care because I saw well

00:46:52   It was repair prices. Yeah, I saw the repair prices which we'll get to but suffice to say

00:46:56   I think I might add Apple care and the part of the reason I think I might add Apple care is

00:46:59   If you'll permit me a slight tangent, I'd like to tell a funny story. So I was at I was at a friend's house

00:47:06   I was a total of four couples inclusive of Erin and myself and you know the associated children

00:47:12   We were hanging out at somebody's house

00:47:13   This was I think the day of pre-order the day after or something like that

00:47:16   I forget exactly what it was

00:47:17   We're all hanging out and they're all just beating me up in a friendly way about you know

00:47:21   Spending this pile of money on this thing that I may or may not even want

00:47:24   But and that was totally justified for the record

00:47:27   But nevertheless, it was clear pretty quickly in the conversation that as much as they're giving me a hard time about it

00:47:33   everyone in the group was

00:47:36   At least intrigued by this thing and I started to explain. Well, here's the thing though

00:47:42   I don't know if you could try mine

00:47:44   Like I'm happy like I'm happy to have you try it

00:47:47   but it may not be a particularly great experience because your faces may be differently shaped than mine while they are differently shaped than mine and

00:47:54   You know the light seal may not match

00:47:57   So then that got into a conversation about what the hell does that mean? What are you talking about? Blah blah blah

00:48:01   Well, how do we figure out if what we if what you got works for us?

00:48:04   Well come to think of it

00:48:06   Why don't you all bust out your iPhones and go and pretend like you're buying a vision Pro?

00:48:10   And so the next you know, and I wish I had taken a picture

00:48:13   I didn't have the presence of mind to take a picture

00:48:15   But the next thing you know our video would even better all of them are looking at their phones doing the and I know this

00:48:21   Is not a video podcast but doing the?

00:48:23   Thing for scanning your face like face ID style in order to get their size

00:48:28   And so everyone was checking out out pretty much at the same time checking out what size light shield they would need

00:48:33   So they could see whether or not they could have a good experience

00:48:36   Testing out my vision Pro and the answer was of a total of eight people

00:48:41   inclusive again of Aaron and myself

00:48:44   And they were all boy-girl couples as it turns out all but two of the women

00:48:50   Could use my or were sized to be the same as me even though

00:48:55   These body types are wildly different among the people that are allegedly the same size as me

00:49:01   The body types are wildly different which I thought was quite funny

00:49:04   But yeah, just imagine a total of eight adults, you know, all of us pretty much all of us in our early 40s

00:49:09   just doing the

00:49:11   Thing all at once trying to size ourselves. Maybe it was one of those experiences you had to be there

00:49:15   But it was hilarious to be watching all this go down

00:49:18   But yeah

00:49:19   I bring all this up to say and this is relevant for the Apple care plus thing

00:49:23   Because even though all of them are probably better with their stuff than I am

00:49:26   I just have a vision of like I have a vision ding of

00:49:29   Handing, you know handing the vision Pro from one person to the other and it dropping on some tile or something like that and holy

00:49:37   Monkey we let's just skip forward to the to the repair costs

00:49:41   John did you order a vision Pro? No

00:49:45   No, but I did go through the order process to get my size you should just help the people

00:49:51   Oh, don't worry. If you want to try mine out just buy a new light seal for 200 bucks

00:49:54   Just 200 bucks to try Casey's headset, right right and then I would have a collection of them at the end

00:50:01   Oh for the record not that it matters solo knit band small do loop band small light seal 21w

00:50:07   someone was saying

00:50:09   That they were getting different size measurements when they whether or not they said they had prescription lenses

00:50:14   But I could have just been variability in the face scanning bit

00:50:16   I actually heard that a lot as well in my understanding which I am not sure is correct

00:50:21   Is that it actually accounts for a little bit of depth for the inserts if you're getting inserts again?

00:50:26   I don't know if that's true. I could be accidentally lying to you, but it does stand to reason that maybe that's true

00:50:33   I don't know just a theory. Yeah, that's why I mean obviously I didn't order one

00:50:37   But if I had I ordered one like it would just make me feel a lot more comfortable

00:50:40   To be able to sort of try on to know oh, yeah

00:50:43   Definitely, you know, especially since we don't know what like the the return exchange situation will be like

00:50:47   Because of the variability because it's just your phone scanning your face because some people have reported

00:50:52   I guess if you're on a borderline between two different sizes

00:50:55   Depending on what mood it's in and when you scan your face if it's gonna put you on one side or the other

00:50:59   It's like trying jeans. I mean you can know your gene size, but it really helps to try them on first, right?

00:51:04   Yeah, I'm very curious and I think Marco you had told me privately you're doing some in-store pickup somewhere. Is that correct?

00:51:10   Yeah, because I basically figured if for some reason the light seal doesn't fit right or whatever

00:51:16   I figured that's a lot easier and they might even you know, like depending on what the process is for in-store pickup

00:51:21   They might even have me take it out and try it on there before I go

00:51:25   So that I figure in person is probably best for something like this

00:51:28   yeah, I feel the exact same way in that and partially because

00:51:32   My delivery schedule for UPS and FedEx seems to be at the end of the day and partially because it just seemed like a smarter

00:51:39   Approach I am also doing in-store pickup

00:51:41   And so by the time I got through the ordering process which we should briefly talk about actually

00:51:46   But I went through the ordering process as quick as I could I was trying to toggle between or I was alternating between my iPad

00:51:52   my iPhone and my Mac and it so happened that the iPhone landed first and that was excellent because that seemed to be the thing that

00:51:59   Was most equipped to scan my face and so on and so forth

00:52:02   It took a little while to scan my face

00:52:04   I think in part because I was in a relatively dark room in the house

00:52:07   I was in the office and it was you know, still dark outside or maybe it was an overcast day

00:52:11   I don't recall and and you may be hearing this and say but Casey face ID doesn't need light it just uses infrared

00:52:17   What that's true to make what the lighting was

00:52:19   Well, I can tell you that the scanning that you do in the Apple star app on your phone

00:52:23   Demands that your room is well lit

00:52:26   I don't know why it does but I just tell you for a fact that will tell you that your room is too dark and face

00:52:30   I will never tell you that face ID I believe does not use the plain old light camera. It uses the IR spreader entirely

00:52:37   So whatever they're doing for this thing

00:52:38   Apparently it also wants to actually see your face

00:52:41   You need to be well it it also it threw me off too because it this one made me do just up down left

00:52:47   Right, not a big circle. So I kept doing it wrong and I kept yelling at me

00:52:51   Exactly the same trained us for years to do the roll your head around

00:52:56   Muscles and now you gotta go up down left right? Yep. I screwed up particularly. I think they have you scan it twice

00:53:01   And I think it was the second time

00:53:02   I don't know why I did it right the first time and not the second but I screwed up

00:53:05   The second time because I was doing the roll just as you were saying Marco and that is an important point John

00:53:10   I appreciate you jumping in there. Yeah, I definitely got yelled at once or twice that the room wasn't bright enough, but nonetheless it was

00:53:16   Really easy for me other than my own issues following directions and doing up down left or not doing up down left

00:53:23   Right and rather doing a circle. It was pretty easy

00:53:25   I mean, I didn't get the eight o'clock time slot which a little bit of a bummer, but I'm a big boy

00:53:29   I can wait 30 freaking minutes

00:53:31   And so yeah, I'm five stars on the ordering process. I thought it was really really straightforward. I heard a lot of people

00:53:37   had problems particularly in busier stores where

00:53:41   They would go to you know, pick a pickup slot appointment, whatever and then during the time

00:53:47   They're doing the financial portion of the checkout

00:53:50   Then the pickup slot would run out of like available spots and I guess it was presented as a payment error

00:53:56   but really the issue was that the

00:53:59   Pickup slot had been snatched out from under them and this is huge Apple Energy to show either no error or an incorrect error

00:54:07   There's something wrong, but I didn't have that problem

00:54:10   Like it was lickety-split for me, but I did hear a lot of reports of that

00:54:13   But I don't know of anyone that I had seen that was deeply interested in getting one

00:54:19   that in in plan to get one that wasn't getting one either day one or you know within the first week or something like that and

00:54:26   You know friend of the show Alex Alex Cox

00:54:28   They ended up ordering one late on launch day if I'm not mistaken and still was able to find a day one delivery

00:54:35   I don't think it was first thing in the morning, but you know still a day one delivery, which is pretty cool

00:54:38   Yeah, we'll get to the rumored sales numbers a little bit, but I hoisted up the repair costs so we can talk about next

00:54:42   Oh, yes. Thank you. I got myself sidetracked

00:54:44   So yeah

00:54:45   So as I was saying, you know as all of my friends are scanning their faces and we look like a bunch of dorks

00:54:50   Nevertheless it occurred to me

00:54:52   I will be potentially passing this backward and forward and I think I will probably go on at least a couple of trips with this

00:54:56   Thing and at first I thought there's no way I want to pay $500 for AppleCare and then I saw the repair prices

00:55:03   cracked cover glass

00:55:05   $800 with AppleCare plus the extraordinarily affordable $300 it only saved it doesn't even save you the entire price

00:55:14   Of course, it doesn't you're paying $500 for this AppleCare plus to save you a few hundred dollars

00:55:19   Well wait to wait for the next repair though

00:55:22   And then additionally what we assume to be a full replacement due to quote other damage

00:55:27   $2,400 if you do not have AppleCare

00:55:34   $2,400 if you do not have AppleCare, but it is comparatively genuinely affordable at $300 if you do. Oh my god

00:55:44   So for me, I think as long as they let me retroactively, you know

00:55:48   How they typically in the first month or so let you add AppleCare. Yeah

00:55:51   I think I'm probably gonna be adding AppleCare cuz the holy jamolis

00:55:55   Yeah

00:55:55   Well, so here's the thing if you crack the cover glass you wouldn't you just leave it cracked who cares if people can see your eyes

00:56:00   As long as everything else works fine. I think people are gonna be like, yeah

00:56:04   I'll pass on the $300 with AppleCare glass replacement so people can see my computerized eyeballs

00:56:11   But like what if it affects the cameras and stuff that's that's the question

00:56:15   Well, here's the thing like the two categories will they put a link on the show notes to the webpage?

00:56:19   The only two things you can pick are crack cover glass and other damage and other damages covers everything

00:56:25   I what I'm wondering is like, okay, but what if there's no damage?

00:56:28   What if just like something goes wonky like your r1 chip fries itself or something?

00:56:32   Is that also a $300 repairs like is any kind of thing $300 AppleCare?

00:56:37   Well, that would be warranty for you know, the first year for the first year

00:56:40   Yeah, but after that anyway, man, so I I don't know. I don't know how to gauge the AppleCare on this

00:56:45   I remember when I noticed that the AppleCare had run out on my 2019 Mac Pro which happened several years ago at this point

00:56:50   I was like

00:56:52   Because if anything breaks on this thing is also like a bazillion dollars

00:56:55   So yeah

00:56:56   I mean I guess this is this argues for the doing the $25 a month thing instead so you can just continue it

00:57:00   indefinitely but for this particular product

00:57:02   If you make it for the first two years, you're probably buying a new newer better one potentially

00:57:06   Yeah, because I can't imagine like, you know, if you get really into this two years from now

00:57:10   There's gonna be a better one that you're gonna want and you're gonna want it. Yeah. Yeah David Schaub in the chat makes a good point

00:57:16   They only have one part other than a full hardware replacement. So that's probably why at least for now. It's cover glass or

00:57:23   Anything else? It's just like the Apple watch

00:57:25   They don't even replace the cover glass and that it's just total replacement. Yeah. All right the weight

00:57:30   So let's talk about weight. This is in grams

00:57:33   Alright, so I'm gonna start with other things and end with a vision Pro

00:57:37   PlayStation VR to 560 valve index

00:57:40   810 meta quest to 503 grams meta quest 3 515 grams meta quest Pro which is the closest

00:57:48   I think most analogous device to the vision Pro

00:57:50   722 grams the Apple vision Pro. I'm sorry, not the Apple vision Pro Apple vision Pro

00:57:56   600 to 650 grams depending on the light seal on the headband, but John you helpfully reminded us of something

00:58:03   Can you tell me about why these numbers aren't really fair?

00:58:05   So some of these in fact other than the valve index all these headsets have their batteries built in

00:58:13   Whereas that Apple vision Pro weight is just the weight of the Apple vision Pro not including the weight of the battery

00:58:17   And I think that's fair because the point is that Apple didn't put the battery on the headset

00:58:22   You put it in your pocket or wherever else you're gonna put it with that $50 clip

00:58:26   And so the weight actually isn't in the headset, but you can see it's it's pretty heavy

00:58:32   You know the the meta quest 2 & 3 are lighter, and they have the batteries with them

00:58:36   So the meta quest 2 & 3 are 500 and 3 515 and the abolition Pro is 600 to 650 and those those quest ones

00:58:43   Have the battery in the headset the valve index is the big chonker

00:58:47   But it is also probably the the beefiest sort of gaming thing that includes the battery inside it anyway

00:58:52   I don't think it's outrageous. I think the weight is reasonable. I think Apple did a pretty good job keeping it light

00:58:57   I think Apple made a wise choice not to have the battery

00:59:00   As part of the headset, I just wish they had made the dangling battery a little bit bigger

00:59:04   Yeah, it doesn't this doesn't seem that bad. I mean like my my big favorite headphones are 500 grams, so

00:59:10   Goodness it. I mean this seems like pretty normal for like high-end thing you'll have on your head

00:59:17   I mean how much are the AirPods max?

00:59:19   Yeah, 384 point 8 grams you are pretty darn close. I mean they feel really heavy on your ears for a long time

00:59:27   But again, that's part of their design

00:59:29   based on this the vision Pro doesn't excuse me Apple vision Pro doesn't really say you like it is a

00:59:33   You know particularly heavy compared to its peers. Yeah, and then

00:59:38   apparently

00:59:40   Attaching the Zeiss optical inserts to the Apple vision Pro there. I go again to Apple vision Pro

00:59:45   They're not the boss of UKC. You can say it. However you want. They're not gonna come in

00:59:49   I'm trying to make a point. I this is this is my you're not you're making a point by obeying their marketing

00:59:55   No, I'm making a point that it's so ridiculous that they that this is the way they want to pronounce when nobody actually pronounced it

01:00:01   This way except marketing at Apple. It doesn't matter attaching Zeiss optical inserts to Apple vision Pro requires pairing the on 95 Mac

01:00:08   They write it the pair of Zeiss optical inserts comes with a quote personal code quote to pair the lenses to Apple vision Pro

01:00:15   After attaching the optical inserts magnetically to the headset users will have to quote scan the pairing code on the card inside

01:00:20   Zeiss optical inserts box to finalize the pairing process quote the code question appears to be an app clip code that triggers a system action

01:00:27   To pair the Zeiss lenses to the Apple vision Pro that's interesting and kind of cool. So this this brings up a

01:00:32   Point that was mentioned before right?

01:00:35   You may be wondering and I don't know if this is different in other countries. Why can you get readers?

01:00:40   Like we were saying in the drugstore like you don't need a prescription. You just go buy them

01:00:44   whereas

01:00:46   Apple is insisting that you have a prescription

01:00:49   signed by a

01:00:51   US

01:00:52   qualified optometrist or whatever to be able to even buy these inserts like why all of the

01:00:58   Stricture around

01:01:01   Certain kinds of vision correction and not others

01:01:04   I don't actually know the answer an optometrist will write in maybe in next episode and tell us here's my best guess

01:01:09   My best guess is based on we were just talking about like accommodation and everything

01:01:13   That if you have if you put on a pair of readers and you pick the wrong one you pick plus

01:01:18   2.5 instead of plus point or whatever one or whatever

01:01:21   that

01:01:23   It doesn't cause as much eye strain like you're not gonna mess up your eyes by doing it

01:01:27   It'll just kind of like things will be blurry and things close up will be bigger than they were or whatever

01:01:30   Whereas the prescription lenses that you need a prescription for like these inserts work for for people who can't just use readers

01:01:38   if you were to get the wrong prescription and wear them for a long time that it could

01:01:43   If not mess with your eyes then at least cause problems with your eyes in terms of like causing eye strain

01:01:49   And potentially I suppose mess with your eyes, and I've seen a couple of stories recently about

01:01:53   What causes

01:01:56   Nearsightedness what causes people not to be able to see things far away was it was part of a scare story of like oh kids

01:02:01   They're staring at the phone screens up close

01:02:02   And if you do a lot of that

01:02:03   It will make you nearsighted

01:02:05   Kind of like the the thing that your parents used to tell you if your nose is buried in books you'll end up wearing glasses

01:02:09   Because you're focused on things up close and turns out there is some medically explainable

01:02:15   mechanism within how the eye forms and grows over time

01:02:18   That lends some support to the idea that if you spend a lot of time focusing

01:02:22   I think it's really close that your eyes can become misshapen in a way that makes you not able to see things far away

01:02:27   That's my guess if you're an optometrist and you're out there

01:02:30   And you know why is it is it just some you know historical regulatory thing doesn't make any sense

01:02:34   Or is there actually a medical reason not to let people say I know by a prescription

01:02:39   It's this that and that give me these lenses

01:02:41   Is that why we're not allowed to do that in this country or is it just some weird thing and anyway this pairing process you?

01:02:46   Only need to pair

01:02:47   I think the ones that well

01:02:48   We'll see when people get these I would imagine you don't need to pair the readers for the same reason that you don't need a prescription

01:02:54   To buy the readers, but we'll see how that works out if you do need to pair the readers

01:02:57   Then I don't understand this feature at all

01:02:59   You can even get these engraved by the way because it's hard to tell like one insert from one person insert from other they like

01:03:04   Magnetically snap in but I think you get free engraving on them or you can put your name on the insert

01:03:09   So if you have a whole family using the vision Pro and they have different inserts and presumably different $200 face shields

01:03:14   That's how you can do it

01:03:17   Just look for the tiny

01:03:18   Incredibly low contrast engraving that you won't be able to see without your actual reading glasses, and then you'll know which answer

01:03:23   wonderful

01:03:25   Alright, we made a brief mention of this earlier in the episode Mark Gurman writes

01:03:30   I've been told that Apple's initial inventory for launch weekend is about 80,000 units

01:03:35   Which the company sold out in the first hour of pre-orders?

01:03:38   And it's not true though. I don't think that's actually true. Well read the next rumor

01:03:43   This these are all people guessing about how many units that have German is usually pretty well sourced

01:03:47   But you know so then Ming Chi Kuo writes Apple sold between 160,000 and 180,000 vision Pro headsets during its first pre-order weekend

01:03:55   According to Apple analyst Ming Chi Kuo. I'm sorry. This is being recounted by Mac rumors

01:03:59   Kuo said that the headset sold out soon after the pre-order process opened with shipping times for all models slipping by five to seven weeks

01:04:05   While the instant sellout and extended shipping times appeared to be positive at first glance Kuo cautioned that shipping dates remain unchanged

01:04:11   48 hours after pre-orders opened indicating that demand may quickly be tapering off after core enthusiasts place their orders again

01:04:18   I don't I don't really like it's hard for me to square this which I'm not trying to say that they're wrong

01:04:23   But square this with what app but what what Alex had where they were able to order?

01:04:27   I think it was like my evening time and still get a day one delivery now

01:04:30   Maybe they felt like they're saying for the first weekend first weekend is two days right mmm fair

01:04:34   Yeah, okay, not like on the very first day like I didn't check, but if you were to go to order now

01:04:38   I'm assuming you can't get they won't deliver. Yeah, I didn't check either, but I presume

01:04:41   But I mean the thing we all don't know we're trusting

01:04:43   Rumors like German whoever to tell us is like we don't know how many have been made and are ready to ship to people and

01:04:49   You know I presumably only Apple knows that well, so I haven't confirmed this but Chris 3 in the chat, right?

01:04:55   I just went on and could get one for the 3rd of February in store, but late February if shipped yeah

01:04:59   That's the other factor very often with everything that Apple sells if you try to get it shipped to your house you get one shipping

01:05:06   Date, but if you're willing to go to a store pick it up

01:05:07   You get a different one because I guess there's different pools of inventory for a retail store

01:05:11   It's like they always want to have stuff available in retail stores at the expense of people who are ordering it for delivery

01:05:15   The so see what happens and then of course we have to bring up the reseller market

01:05:20   And there's a post on 9 to 5 Mac which talks about this and apparently

01:05:24   Based on both what 95 Mac is found and what we looked at briefly it looks like generally it's between

01:05:30   Five and ten thousand dollars yes, I said ten thousand dollars for for one of these

01:05:36   I did try to look for completed auctions on eBay, and I think I did find one for something like five thousand dollars

01:05:42   So that's the thing yeah, it's some story. I wish I had the link for notes of saying like you know that's

01:05:47   People who are wanted to resell this

01:05:50   Basically had found a way to automate the process that we all just described of like going through the Apple store app and scanning your

01:05:57   Face and buying one apparently they found it a way to automate that I don't know

01:06:00   I'm just picturing like mannequin heads or something or whatever so they could order tons of them for resale that that was the store

01:06:06   I don't know if there's any if the story is true

01:06:07   I don't remember where I saw it

01:06:08   But I just just imagine you know the the motivation to get a bunch of these on day one so you can resell them kind of

01:06:14   Like ticket scalpers is motivating somebody to come up with a way to

01:06:17   quickly and in an automated fashion go through the face scanning process and

01:06:21   Then a couple of videos that are I genuinely think are worth your time first of all there's the Apple vision Pro guided tour

01:06:28   Which you can find on Apple's website? There's different segments, but they stitch them together into one cohesive movie

01:06:35   That's something like ten minutes, and I think it's uh it's a pretty good

01:06:39   representation of what the vision Pro is all about and they do briefly talk about

01:06:44   Using your Mac within the context of vision OS I wish I had a better shorter description for that

01:06:50   But anyways they show that among many other things the one funny thing about this though

01:06:54   And I'm not the first to point this out is that they have someone who they claim had never used a vision Pro

01:07:00   Which I do take on face value that that's probably true, but the the person the gentleman that's using the vision Pro

01:07:07   They have a persona or they have the eyesight turned on and I'm pretty sure they set it up off camera

01:07:13   Right that exactly so they must have at least done enough setup to get through the orientation process and eyesight scanning process off-camera

01:07:21   Yeah, that that was a really weird

01:07:23   like I

01:07:26   Have a hard time believing that those were his first reactions. They're actors. Yeah, tell anybody yeah like still and they were so

01:07:33   The reactions were so well in line with how marketing want to describe things and everything was so

01:07:41   Infusive they're reading from a script don't tell anybody there's there is no way it's a commercial. Yeah

01:07:48   I thought it was tastefully done. I thought it was nice

01:07:51   Yes

01:07:51   We all we all want to believe that we will be happy and our beautiful clutter free home led through a magical experience of this

01:07:57   Apple product by attractive charismatic people

01:08:00   like I like

01:08:03   The content of it was good. Just like that the conceit that oh, this is allegedly this person's first time ever

01:08:08   Yeah, I don't I don't I don't really buy that

01:08:11   I thought it was fine

01:08:12   I mean the important job the reason I think that it's worth looking at is if you're wondering if you just want to see for

01:08:17   The umpteenth time or you've never seen it before what are all the things you can do with this they go through all them

01:08:21   Here you go. This is what it looks like. You can do this. You can you nap you can look at a movie

01:08:25   You can do they just go through it all very quickly and it's a nice overview. It's a guy tour

01:08:29   I thought I thought it was a well done video if someone if for example of like Casey if you're having dinner over something

01:08:34   They're like, what is this thing you're talking about?

01:08:36   I would send them the link to the video and say if you actually want to see what this thing is that we're talking

01:08:40   About this video will more or less explain it

01:08:42   You know as long as you get the idea that what you're seeing very often is what that person is seeing inside the headset

01:08:48   You'll be fine. Yeah, they also have a like minute and a half long making Apple vision Pro video, which is very much

01:08:55   You know marketing it's almost like, you know, it's the sort of thing that usually accompany Johnny in his white room

01:09:00   But it was a seriously sweet 90 second video. So it's worth your time

01:09:04   It's it's bananas the stuff that they're going through in order to make these things

01:09:08   It's trying to make you feel better about the price you say well, it is really complicated to build and we have

01:09:12   Although I always wonder with these things like how do you square the beauty of these videos and the machines making it with?

01:09:20   what must surely be the much more cluttered and

01:09:23   sad looking factories where things are put together with workers being oppressed by you know, like it's just there's

01:09:30   There's the marketing video of the factory and there's what a real factory looks like and how the people who work in that factory feel

01:09:36   About working there and it's I think there's still some distance between those by the way some quick real-time follow-up

01:09:41   I also just now checked the vision pro ordering to see like how backorder does it now?

01:09:44   And so now we are almost a week from ordering being opened up. I'm able to get all three

01:09:52   capacities at it like not that like any store I want but at a store that's that's you know within a decent drive for

01:10:00   Day two or three delivery like February 4th, February 5th, February 4th, like it's all like, you know, really right there. So

01:10:07   Maybe there's some and and they're all back order, but you know for mail order out to like February 28th

01:10:13   But that's a little it. That's very surprising to me. Like I think maybe

01:10:19   obviously, you know, they're gonna probably reserve a lot for for retail but

01:10:23   Maybe these are not actually selling out as quickly as we think

01:10:27   We don't know how many they made if they already made as many as they can make like they made all of them now and they're

01:10:33   Just sitting there waiting then. Yeah, you're not gonna sell through a year's supply in the first week

01:10:37   But if they made, you know 20,000 of them, they still have some left. That's much more concerning but yeah only Apple knows

01:10:43   I also wonder if they favored and I think Marco you were just alluding to this if they favored the retail experience

01:10:48   And I wonder if they have you know

01:10:50   Like regional caches of vision pros or something like that, which they can easily get to a retail store

01:10:56   But maybe is a little bit harder to get into the shipping ecosystem for whatever reason. I know nothing about logistics

01:11:01   Maybe that's that's an extremely well

01:11:03   It is an extremely ignorant to say some people were speculating that

01:11:06   The Apple might be making decisions about what other countries to open up based on how much stuff they have lying around like Canada

01:11:12   Or whatever, you know, so we'll see speaking of other countries. I was a perfect segue. Thank you

01:11:16   John Apple vision Pro App Store Apple music and TV app require US Apple IDs. So this was

01:11:23   Stated on Apple's website in the pre-order section, but Mac rumors has a pretty good summary

01:11:27   For international customers who are thinking of purchasing Apple vision Pro in the United States and using it in their own country

01:11:33   Apple has cautioned that they will be faced with several limitations when attempting to use the device

01:11:36   According to an FAQ on Apple vision for Apple's vision Pro pre-order page

01:11:41   first of all

01:11:42   The Apple vision Pro only supports English us for language and typing and English for Syrian dictation

01:11:49   Number two Apple store requests using the App Store requires an Apple ID with region set to the US number three purchases on Apple music

01:11:55   And the TV app require an Apple ID with region set to the US

01:11:58   Number four for customers with vision correction needs nice will only accept vision prescriptions written by US

01:12:03   I care professionals and will only ship to US locations

01:12:05   number five customers may not be able to access certain apps features or content due to licensing or other restrictions in those countries or regions and

01:12:12   Finally number six Apple support is only available in the US

01:12:18   This is fascinating. This is particularly fascinating for a lot of our mutual friends. I don't recall where I heard the story

01:12:24   probably on connected or maybe app stories, but the length to which

01:12:29   Federico and and Mike have gone to procure these devices is

01:12:35   Astonishing and it is worth listening to their stories again. I would look at connected

01:12:39   I probably won't put a link in the show notes because we're not sure where I heard this for sure

01:12:43   But anyways, it is worth investigating this because it is both funny and amazing what they've done in order to make this work

01:12:48   But yeah

01:12:49   It is kind of crummy for those not in America and I get especially if they're inventory constrained why they would start here

01:12:55   But I do feel for our you know, European and UK friends

01:12:59   Also, I'd be terrified to change the region on anything happening with my Apple ID because all the horror stories I've heard about it

01:13:05   So, oh, yeah, you don't want to do that

01:13:07   You basically just gonna end up using a test out by day

01:13:09   Which is great because again if you used your own Apple ID and you synced your messages, it would just fill the message

01:13:13   I don't know. I don't know that that's true

01:13:16   But I'm just bashing on Apple's poor control of storage and the iPhone when it comes to messages

01:13:20   Hello listeners, we are brought to you this episode by ATP membership and you can join today and become a member yourself

01:13:30   Here's what this gets you. First of all the big one an ad free version of each episode

01:13:34   You have your own private RSS feed to add to whatever podcast app you want

01:13:38   So you can listen ad free with your own feed there. You also have a bootleg fee

01:13:43   This gives you unedited copies of the live streams many listeners choose to listen this way because it's kind of like a raw

01:13:50   Uncut version of the show usually has some extra bonus stuff kind of mixed in here and there you get to hear Casey swear

01:13:57   It's totally unedited and it comes out right after we finish recording

01:14:01   So it comes out usually about a half a day to a day earlier than the regular show and then also you get bonus episodes

01:14:08   Exclusively for members. We've done a lot of really fun bonus episodes recently. Everyone's raving about the connectors tier list

01:14:15   We've also done some movie episodes some different tech stuff non tech stuff food stuff. It's a lot of fun

01:14:21   So all of that with ATP membership at ATP FM

01:14:25   Join, it's about eight dollars a month or whatever your local currency might be. We have the annual discounts

01:14:31   We have gift memberships now so much stuff in our membership program. So consider becoming a member today

01:14:36   It is the best and most direct way to support the show and we give you all this cool stuff and we think it's pretty

01:14:41   Fun and our members seem like they want to see like they enjoy it

01:14:44   They keep telling us how much how much they're enjoying all the you know, extra stuff the bonus episodes the bootleg stuff like that

01:14:49   So check it out ATP FM slash join. Thank you so much for considering it and now back to the show

01:14:56   Let's do some ask ATP I think we've actually slacked on this accidentally for the last couple of weeks

01:15:05   So one way or another we're getting back to it, baby

01:15:07   Nigel Warren writes listening to the quote vision pro tidbits segment of episode 570

01:15:13   I was struck by how the lens inserts complicate things in a variety of ways

01:15:16   Do you know why the vision pro doesn't have some kind of focal adjustment diopter like a camera viewfinder would use?

01:15:22   Sure seems like it would make the buying using sharing of the device easier

01:15:26   Are there specific requirements or constraints that make it not practical for a headset do other headsets use lens inserts or have some kind of?

01:15:32   Built-in adjustment system. I thought a lot of other headsets or at least the meta quest

01:15:36   I thought they do take inserts, but I am talking way outside my comfort zone

01:15:41   Do one of you actually have facts to share about this? Well, I mean, I think this ties into everything we just discussed

01:15:46   All right. So what I was speculating about is there something about

01:15:49   Prescription lenses

01:15:53   That make that requires that justifies us having to have a prescription in this country to get them unlike readers, right?

01:16:00   In other words some some kind of health damage or thing that could be done

01:16:02   There will be bad for your eyes

01:16:04   If you're just allowed to do it will you know you really need someone to give you a prescription if that's true

01:16:10   Then maybe they don't want to provide the type of adjustment

01:16:12   But setting all of that aside the much easier explanation is any kind of adjustability for lens stuff

01:16:20   adds space and complexity

01:16:23   Maybe not a lot but it is additional space and additional complexity versus snap and inserts and I can imagine the snap and inserts

01:16:29   Can be higher quality because it is just one lens element that doesn't move. That's exactly the right position

01:16:34   That is exactly your prescription and then finally there's more to your prescription than can be adjusted easily now

01:16:41   Obviously you can't adjust it when you go to the eye doctor

01:16:43   You know that big thing you sit in front of and they go one or two or three or four

01:16:45   It's got a million different lenses that go in front of your eyes that can adjust for everything

01:16:50   That's all it's the doctors, you know, it's their device for figuring out what your prescription is

01:16:53   But there's more than just that, you know, the sphere number or whatever you can have a stigmatism

01:16:57   They make you look at the lines tell you which one is thicker like it is possible to do all those things

01:17:02   But when I look at the size of the thing at the eye doctor, I think to do that

01:17:06   Well probably require space they don't want to spend on the inside of this device space weight complexity cost all that

01:17:13   that those I think are the main reasons that this doesn't exist and the Apple vision Pro because

01:17:19   It's it makes for a smaller lighter simpler headset not to do that and especially if you wanted to do it

01:17:26   Well, you know, I don't know the details of what's going on inside that big thing

01:17:30   The doctor's office aside from things tumbling in front of my eyes and things looking different

01:17:33   But I know it's not as simple especially again

01:17:35   If you have a stigmatism of just having a lens that you move farther and you know

01:17:39   Closer and farther riff in your eye if you have bad enough eyes

01:17:42   There's all sorts of things that can be wrong with them that are not solved by taking a single lens element and moving it farther

01:17:47   Or closer to your eye

01:17:48   Lawrence Kotaff writes

01:17:50   Do you have an email backup regime outside of time machine or local computer backups recently a family member accidentally deleted all of their?

01:17:56   iCloud and email in the Mac mail app not realizing that they had all the folders selected when they hit the delete button

01:18:02   And being a very fastidious email user they immediately emptied the trash folder without noticing

01:18:07   Apple does not provide any way to restore trashed email

01:18:10   So we were left with restoring the mail database from a back place backup

01:18:13   This got most of them back

01:18:14   But apparently Apple mail does not always download and store the contents of emails and attachments so many of them are blank and lost

01:18:20   I haven't found an obvious solution for automatically backing up an email account and I wanted to know if this is something you've considered before

01:18:26   For me it is not I don't have a good answer

01:18:30   It's just I I'm not terribly worried that I will put myself in that position I say as I knock on wood

01:18:36   But I don't I don't have any good answer for this Marco. Do you do anything about this not besides just local file backups?

01:18:42   I mean I first of all I am not an aggressive

01:18:46   trash emptier like that's I mean that like the the purpose of the trash is

01:18:52   To be like a buffer so that you're not constantly if every single time you delete anything you immediately empty

01:18:59   It's trash of what you know whether it's in your mail app or the you know trash on your Mac

01:19:03   You're kind of you know ruining the point of the trash

01:19:08   I think of that every time I delete something from my media volume on my Synology because the Finder says just so you know

01:19:14   I'm gonna delete this immediately and not move it to the trash is that okay, and the only choice you have is yes

01:19:19   It's okay or no don't bother deleting it

01:19:21   Yeah, so I think getting getting out of the habit of trashing everything or emptying the trash constantly like that is that would be

01:19:28   Extremely beneficial for you know to whatever degree you have control over it for you know whatever people you're talking about here

01:19:33   You know so I don't have this problem because I let the trash be the trash

01:19:37   I let it be a temporary buffer for deleted stuff in case I need to go get something out of it

01:19:42   But I accidentally threw away or decided I didn't want to throw away

01:19:45   And I only empty the trash if I'm running low on space

01:19:48   I find it funny that both of both of my children and both in real life and on their computers never empty the trash

01:19:54   Because like unless you unless you are out of space you need the space right now

01:19:58   There's not much reason to empty it right after you've been deleting. Oh, there's a reason

01:20:02   There's a reason the same reason that this person's relative

01:20:05   I'm to the trash that reason is very simple a full trash icon bothers people oh

01:20:10   That's what it is. It's like it's like notification badges, right?

01:20:15   I wish there was a way in the finder to say don't show the crumpled up paper because it makes people want to empty it

01:20:20   Makes me want to do the trash. Yep. That's fair point John. Do you have any backup strategies for this?

01:20:24   What do you think I'm sure you know first? I do how many is the question right?

01:20:29   Yeah, so here's the things I do with me all right first strategy, so I use Gmail for everything

01:20:34   I use the Gmail web client I use it and like it

01:20:36   But I also use Apple mail for this one purpose which is to pop to use the pop protocol

01:20:43   To pull my Gmail using pop down to my Mac because that way I know I've got a copy

01:20:49   It's not like I map where it might be somewhere else, and you know the problem

01:20:52   They were having it's like oh, but mail didn't have all the the mail locally some of it was still on the server

01:20:56   I use pop which is an older dumber protocol

01:20:58   Which says just give me a copy of the mail from the server and I use Apple mail

01:21:03   Periodically run it so it will pop all my Gmail down and fill its Apple mail database

01:21:08   But of course I don't trust Apple mayor as far as I can throw it so that's just one thing

01:21:11   I do the main thing I do once per year on a calendar

01:21:15   You know reminder that I think it's sometime in December. I use the very good

01:21:20   Google takeout feature that allows you to download data your Google data onto your computer and

01:21:26   Google will make you a tar ball tar dot gz file of all your Gmail on

01:21:32   Demand whenever you want it, and I do that once a year and that gives me all my I think it's in like mbox format

01:21:38   Or whatever so worse kit and then of course once those are files

01:21:41   They're in my backup vortex and they get backed up or whatever so worst case scenario

01:21:45   I'm gonna lose on average six months of mail assuming my Apple mail thing totally doesn't work at all which again

01:21:50   I'm not sure I entirely trust it so those are my strategies

01:21:52   Pop from Gmail using a mail client that I don't actually use for mail

01:21:56   I just launched Apple mail every once in a while

01:21:57   Just let it run in the background and then quit it right because it catches up pretty quickly and then Google takeout

01:22:02   I suggest everybody who uses Gmail as their main email thing

01:22:06   Put a reminder in your calendar once a year once every six months

01:22:09   Whatever you're comfortable with to download all your Gmail you can set the options

01:22:13   It will give you a single file a single multi gigabyte file to buy how much mail you have it compress us really well

01:22:19   So gzip compression will get it down pretty small because mostly text

01:22:22   And that's what I suggest and then yeah that put that file into your own personal backup vortex and have it go on time machine

01:22:28   You super duper clone and your cloud backup the whole nine yards

01:22:32   Severin writes do you use I message contact key verification? I just stumbled upon it in settings and I was 17.2.1

01:22:38   I've never seen it before so

01:22:40   In short this is a mechanism by which you can verify that the people you are talking to or the people they claim to be

01:22:47   you can do a manual contact key verification by way of

01:22:51   Getting a key and then over like FaceTime or a phone call

01:22:55   Whatever you read your two keys and verify that they're what you what you expect

01:22:59   I don't use this because I don't think anyone's gonna like man in the middle me for state secrets

01:23:04   Like I just don't think I'm important enough

01:23:06   But I don't know do you guys use this? Let's start with Marco again. No for the same reasons

01:23:12   I mean for I didn't know about it until fairly recently

01:23:14   But I think it's a pretty recent thing. I think it's iOS 17.2 that added it, but I don't

01:23:19   really have the need for this level of

01:23:23   Security it like in my eye message now, you know

01:23:26   If this becomes easy and on by default and everything then sure

01:23:29   Yeah, but you know for the same reason I don't use that like ultra lockdown protection mode of iOS

01:23:35   I forget what that's called lockdown mode. Is that it? Yep

01:23:38   Yeah, so I don't use that either for the same reason that like, you know

01:23:41   I don't I don't really deal with data that sensitive or and that big of a target

01:23:45   but if I were

01:23:47   Dealing with very sensitive stuff if I was like a whistleblower or a journalist or you know

01:23:51   Like that would be different then I then I would be very happy to speak to her here

01:23:55   But the way it is now, I don't need them

01:23:57   John I

01:23:58   Do actually want to try it with somebody because I want to see how onerous it is

01:24:02   It seems kind of onerous like it seems like a burden that you would not want to deal with unless it was like super important

01:24:08   Like Marcus like you're you're in an actual secure situation

01:24:10   We want to make sure you're talking to you think you're talking to I just wanted to see what that burden was

01:24:14   So I have do you have to like use some side channel to do something?

01:24:17   Is it done all through the phone? I was willing to try it, but I haven't found anyone to try it with

01:24:23   So I currently do not have this enabled or used at all and related to that

01:24:28   17.3 is out now iOS 17.3 and it has the stolen device protection and I turned it on

01:24:33   I turned it on to my phone and I had my wife update hers and turns it on her phone and I'm trying to get my

01:24:38   Kids to turn it on have you guys turned it on I haven't yet, but I probably should I have it

01:24:42   I'm doing to his phone probably this weekend with it because that's one of those things really because

01:24:46   Like she can access our shared bank account and stuff

01:24:50   Like I feel like this is like a family IT security policy thing that is worth

01:24:54   You know closing all the doors on well, they can still get to your bank account. They just can't take over your Apple ID

01:24:59   well, but again, yeah, that's that's

01:25:01   It's it's a high risk enough situation and also her passcode hygiene is not great

01:25:08   Anyway, the reason I did on my wife's own is remember the the family photo library is on her Apple ID now with the great

01:25:16   Shared library feature. I get access to all of them

01:25:18   But technically it's her Apple ID. So having her Apple ID get taken over is really the worst case scenario. Not mine

01:25:24   Although I have all the purchases so we'd lose all their movies, but honestly I'd much rather lose the movies in the photo

01:25:29   So yeah, I want her to have stolen device protection on

01:25:32   Thanks to our sponsor this week Squarespace and thank you to our members who support us directly

01:25:37   You can join us at ATP that FM slash join and we will talk to you next week

01:25:43   Now the show is over

01:25:48   They didn't even mean to begin

01:25:50   Because it was accidental

01:25:53   It was accidental

01:25:55   John did any research Marco and Casey wouldn't let him because it was accidental

01:26:03   was accidental

01:26:06   And you can find the show notes at ATP

01:26:10   And if you're into Twitter you can follow them

01:26:16   @CASEYL

01:26:19   ISS so that's Casey Liss, M-A-R-C-O

01:26:23   ARM

01:26:26   Auntie Marco Armin S-I-R-A-C

01:26:30   USA, Syracuse

01:26:33   It's accidental

01:26:35   It's accidental

01:26:37   They didn't mean to

01:26:39   Accidental

01:26:41   Tech podcast

01:26:43   So long

01:26:46   Has Adam or Tiff shown any enthusiasm for the vision Pro

01:26:49   Adam because he is so into the quest three. Yeah, he's so into that. He has requested that I please let him try it

01:26:58   Tiff doesn't care at all

01:27:01   What does Adam know that there's no controllers? Yes, and because he's a big fan of

01:27:05   Because there are so the quest to

01:27:09   Some games could use like just hand recognition the quest three I based on what he's told me it seemed like that has gotten better

01:27:15   But not every game will use it. So he still uses the controllers because you know, it makes sense

01:27:21   I can understand why like for gaming purposes

01:27:23   Controllers are generally a better option, you know because because you want the higher precision you want maybe more buttons

01:27:30   You know because most of the gesture recognition of these systems it can do like a handful of gestures

01:27:35   No pun intended, but it's not doing like every single finger individually, you know stuff like that

01:27:40   So and and latency is better with controllers presumably. Yeah, I would assume so, you know when you look at the vision Pro

01:27:45   It's very clear that this is a device that's made for computing first and games maybe second or not at all

01:27:53   Right exactly

01:27:54   Whereas like, you know

01:27:55   The quest is a game console and to be fair to Apple like you can just use like a PlayStation controller with the vision

01:28:01   But like that's their solution essentially. Oh you want to play a game in the vision Pro?

01:28:03   Just literally use your Xbox or PlayStation controller, right?

01:28:06   Which is not the same thing as a VR controller which like in that like in the valve games like oh

01:28:10   You have a virtual hand and you're reaching out to grab the ladder or the gun or the bottle like that's not a thing

01:28:16   That Apple is showing or promising at all

01:28:19   It's more like oh you can put something in front of you and here hold the PlayStation controller

01:28:22   Now you get low latency fast access to buttons. Yeah. Yeah, so but it seems it seems like you know

01:28:28   The way Apple has designed the vision Pro they they want it to be a computer

01:28:33   And that is a very different set of priorities and a very different set of choices than game consoles

01:28:39   The quest series those are game consoles first that Facebook keeps trying to make computers and they're not very good

01:28:45   They're they're game costs and you know and all this stuff that the vision Pro does it's not games

01:28:50   Adam doesn't care. He might someday but he doesn't now it's not his job. He's 11. He's about games

01:28:56   Hey, man

01:28:56   Like the movie thing or the panorama like imagine that they have like a you're riding on a roller coaster

01:29:01   Immersive experience thing that would be fun to do like I'm thinking about games and the vision Pro all that resolution

01:29:07   That's good for looking at like your documents is not good for games games don't want to push that many pixels

01:29:12   They want high frame rates and you can't get high frame rates in a you know, a headset type thing with a low power

01:29:18   SOC and GPU on there and so not having so many pixels to push is an advantage to those less expensive ones

01:29:25   But yeah, the only thing I can think of where it'd be an advantage is oh you're on a roller coaster

01:29:29   Yeah, you might want to see in like HDR, you know 4k for each eyeball

01:29:33   Yeah, but I feel like I would think that's amazing. I

01:29:36   Don't think Adam would like he would just be like, okay, that's cool

01:29:40   And then he would just go back to his game show him the gerbils demo from quick draw 3d

01:29:43   Neither one of you knows what that is. Oh

01:29:45   You know quick draw 3d is

01:29:48   Mmm, I know what quick quick draw that was like the the toolbox functions in the original Mac that made they made fast window drawing

01:29:55   Stuff right? Yeah, it was the drawing API

01:29:58   It's like, you know, like core graphics is now yeah draw was so what was quick draw 3d

01:30:02   Yeah, so quick draw 3d was at a certain point and this this is the time when Apple did its quote-unquote

01:30:09   Most serious push into gaming they made libraries for gaming stuff called game sprockets it input sprockets and a bunch of other sprockets like handling

01:30:17   Joysticks and you know doing game type stuff and they had a 3d API, you know

01:30:22   Like instead of OpenGL or DirectX or whatever and they called it quick draw 3d

01:30:28   and it was it was you know, the 3d API just like all those other ones I described except for much much worse and

01:30:33   And made by Apple and one of the demos they had for it like in a typical Apple fashion

01:30:37   Once they came up with quick draw 3d like it works everywhere. There used to be a desk accessory called the scrapbook

01:30:43   I don't know if you guys remember that. Nope

01:30:45   you go to the Apple and you'd pick scrapbook and it was just basically an application with a bunch of

01:30:49   Like a horizontal scroll bar and a bunch of different things and what do you put in the scrapbook anything you wanted?

01:30:54   You could paste in text you could paste in images you could paste in a movie and once quick draw 3d came out

01:30:59   You could paste in 3d objects

01:31:01   So you'd get a Mac with a 3d and you'd open the scrapbook and there would be a 3d model of a palm tree that you

01:31:07   Could rotate anyway, one of the things they had I believe it was a demo application called gerbils

01:31:12   I think and it was a quick draw 3d application that

01:31:16   modeled I believe a bunch of

01:31:20   supposedly furry gerbils riding on a roller coaster in in 3d if you can find a movie of what gerbils look like

01:31:27   It is the most hilariously not impressive to young people think you've ever seen your life and the frame rates were awful

01:31:32   I don't think there was any 3d hardware acceleration either. So it was all in software

01:31:36   Not an impressive experience, but if someone can port gerbils to

01:31:41   vision Pro I guarantee a bunch of old people like me

01:31:45   Actually had a vision Pro will buy it for 99 cents and try it. I'm like, yeah

01:31:50   So they sell like 12 copies, right? Yeah. Yeah. No, it's a big big market for gerbils

01:31:54   You

01:31:56   [beeping]

01:31:58   you