573: Look at It Harder


00:00:00   We have some follow-up to do. We have a lot of follow-up to do.

00:00:02   So wait, this show that we have like our first impressions of actually using the Vision Pros,

00:00:07   we're going to be doing a lot of follow-up first, is what we're saying here?

00:00:09   But a lot of follow-up about Vision Pro.

00:00:11   Don't look at me. This is all John. I would love to just cut it.

00:00:15   I mean, I debated putting all the Vision Pro stuff down in the Vision Pro topic section,

00:00:18   but these are just follow-ups about Vision Pro before we get to the meat of Vision Pro. It's all

00:00:22   Vision Pro, though. I mean, technically, isn't everything about Vision Pro follow-up because it's

00:00:25   a device that we already talked about before? No, follow-up is a complicated thing that you

00:00:29   still don't understand that I could explain to you at length, but you don't want to hear it.

00:00:32   Yeah, we should punish John. We should just do the Vision Pro review right now, Marco. We can go

00:00:37   rogue, the two of us. And this will be John's punishment for putting all this follow-up in

00:00:40   the beginning of the show. I should be rewarded because this is high quality Vision Pro follow-up.

00:00:44   Let's start with Christian Selig, who we do like. And Christian writes, "It was funny hearing John

00:00:50   talk about the, 'Oh yeah, this isn't Vision Pro at all.' We can skip this."

00:00:53   I know, but it's a celebrity. No, we got to do it.

00:00:55   He mentions Vision Pro in the middle there. Oh, gosh.

00:00:59   I am under protest. I would just like everyone to know. Christian, who is not guilty,

00:01:04   it's John who's the guilty one. Christian writes, "It was funny hearing John talk about the YouTube

00:01:07   API this week as I was playing around with a different part of the YouTube API for a Vision

00:01:11   Pro app." There you go.

00:01:12   And he got me remembering that back when I started Apollo, without even having to ask,

00:01:16   YouTube's API limit was 50 million per day. And I assume that's where that comical 1.8 million per

00:01:21   minute other stipulation comes in. After they lowered the limit, they started auditing Apollo

00:01:26   annually to know how I was using it. And I used it a fair bit. And shortly after Apollo shut down,

00:01:30   I didn't do the audit. They kept, and I didn't do the audit, they kept reducing me from 50 million

00:01:35   all the way back to 10,000 per day or 0.02% of what I was allowed at peak.

00:01:40   Those were the days. 50 million per day. Oh, well.

00:01:44   All right. So explain to me how this next piece of follow-up is related to Vision Pro, John?

00:01:47   Because we were talking about zooming things in on the Vision Pro and how close you can

00:01:51   get to them to Pixel Peep. This is weak.

00:01:54   The next one is weaker, but still. You're taking longer than the actual item complaining about it.

00:01:59   Please proceed.

00:01:59   This was about Photoshop. And I was complaining about how it didn't zoom the way I wanted it to.

00:02:04   And someone on Thread said, "Hey, here's a video of me doing it. And it zooms the way you said you

00:02:08   wanted it." And then I sent a video and said, "Hey, here's a video of me doing the same thing

00:02:11   and it behaving differently." And so then he sent me a picture of his preferences with the preferences

00:02:16   that he thought were related to zooming circled in red. And I said, "I have all those settings

00:02:19   set exactly the same way you do." Eventually, I figured it out. It was the overscroll setting in

00:02:24   the Tools section of Photoshop Preferences and the overscroll setting when enabled, it allows

00:02:29   scrolling past the normal bounds of the window. So that was the secret. If you, like me, want

00:02:34   Option Scroll Wheel to zoom where your cursor is all the time, make sure you have overscroll set.

00:02:38   And then Proton suggested another way to do it. If you press and hold in sequence,

00:02:42   the space bar, then Command, your mouse cursor will change to a magnifying glass. And then while

00:02:46   holding these keys down, click and hold left mouse button and right drag to zoom in or left

00:02:50   drag to zoom out. That doesn't actually solve the problem entirely. If you still have overscroll

00:02:54   turned off, it still does the bad behavior in some situations, but it's better than nothing.

00:02:58   - More Not Vision Pro follow up. Russ writes, "I have a Euro 50 coin and it quote,

00:03:04   '50 Euro cent' quote is stamped onto the face of the coin." And someone, I presume Russ, provided a

00:03:10   convenient little image there. Economically, the UK is also in this little stamped in the

00:03:17   coin here, which I find funny, but nevertheless, it is a 50 Euro cent.

00:03:21   - And it's called cents, yeah, which was a topic of much debate. And also on the previous episode,

00:03:26   when talking about the core technology fee, which is 50 Euro cents, I said about 100 times 50%

00:03:33   instead of 50 cents. I apologize. Every time you heard me say 50%, just substitute 50 Euro cents or

00:03:38   50 cents. - That's what happens when we get older. We're all losing our marbles, all three of us.

00:03:42   - And neither one of you, usually when I do that, like the third or fourth time,

00:03:45   one of you corrects me, but- - I remember you doing it once or twice.

00:03:48   - I did so much, it was so bad. I'm like, why do I keep saying 50%? 50 cents, 50 Euro cents.

00:03:53   - Tell me about Vision Pro prescription lens pairing, please.

00:03:57   - We were discussing like, why do you have to pair them? Is this a DRM thing? Some people theorize

00:04:02   that to get Zeiss to be the supplier of these lenses, they had to provide some kind of sort

00:04:07   of DRM so that they would be the exclusive supplier and people couldn't make knockoff

00:04:11   third-party lenses for less money or something like that. But now that we all know much more

00:04:17   about the Vision Pro, it's clear that at least one aspect of the Vision Pro lens pairing is because

00:04:22   the lenses affect how the device works and, you know, like the eye tracking, for example,

00:04:29   and you need to sort of calibrate the device based on the prescription, right? In one instance,

00:04:35   somebody had a, like the Vision Pro thought they had a different prescription than they actually

00:04:38   had, like there was a pairing problem and the eye tracking was all wonky until they got that

00:04:42   straightened out. So it's not just for DRM, it may be for that purpose additionally, but that

00:04:46   whole pairing process is essential for the device to work correctly and track your eyes when you

00:04:52   have lenses inserted. - Excellent. So I believe John put in the notes and I love this, there's

00:04:59   wider lightning and widest lightning as it turns out. So over the last couple of days, people have

00:05:05   figured out how to eject, if you will, or unpair perhaps the cable that goes from the Vision Pro

00:05:12   battery pack to the Vision Pro itself. - And by the way, I'm so proud of myself because the second

00:05:16   I saw that battery and I saw a little black dot, I'm like, that's gotta be a, you know, stick a

00:05:20   paperclip in and eject that connector thing and lo and behold, it was, which is a miracle because

00:05:24   if I had talked about it in the show, I would have said, no, Apple would never do that,

00:05:27   but it totally looks like one of those holes. Well, guess what? It was. - Turns out, although I think

00:05:31   I read somewhere, I don't know if we have the, I don't think we have the link handy, but I thought

00:05:34   I read somewhere that they specifically said, do not put a paperclip in there that you have to use

00:05:37   a bespoke tool. - Yes, of course. It's a very special tool. We'll see a picture of it later.

00:05:41   - Indeed. So anyway, so there's wide, wide light or wider lightning and widest lightning. Wider

00:05:46   lightning is the connector between the battery and the Vision Pro. It really legitimately does look

00:05:52   like a wider lightning point or port. Man, I cannot speak tonight. What is there like 10 or 12

00:05:56   pins, something like that? - Yeah, I think it's 12 instead of eight. - Okay. And then apparently it

00:06:01   also runs at a higher voltage than standard USB-C, which is different. And then we also got word,

00:06:07   I want to say it was Saturday, maybe it was late Friday. I forget exactly when it was,

00:06:12   but apparently the developer strap is available for purchase. I actually have one in the house.

00:06:17   I haven't opened it yet and I'd actually kind of like to return it if it turns out I don't need it,

00:06:21   but I wanted to order it immediately just in case there were supply issues. So I figure I'm going to

00:06:26   do some development without it, see how miserable I am. And if it's actually not bad, then I'll return

00:06:31   it. If it's like the watch, I will buy six of them just for principle. But anyways, the straps,

00:06:38   so I should back up, I'm sorry. So the developer strap is you replace the right hand side white

00:06:45   piece on the Vision Pro, the piece that goes from the goggly part through and including the speaker,

00:06:52   and then what eventually gets mated to the band that either goes behind your head, over your head,

00:06:57   or both. And that means that the developer strap has to include the speaker all over again. So in

00:07:04   the house, I have three speakers for the Vision Pro, you know, one left-hand speaker and two

00:07:10   right-hand speakers. But the piece de resistance of the developer strap is behind the speaker.

00:07:15   There's a little dongle that has a USB-C receptacle, so you can plug your Vision Pro

00:07:23   into your computer and then build and run much easier that way. The whole design of the developer

00:07:32   strap kind of annoys me. So the Vision Pro, one of the less graceful things about it is that

00:07:38   you have a cord coming out of the left side all the time running to a battery. Well, if you want

00:07:43   to connect it to a computer via a cable for live debugging, so your other option if you want to do

00:07:48   debugging with Xcode, you want to like build and run on the device to do debugging, you can do that

00:07:53   wirelessly. Just over its regular Wi-Fi debugging, they've had that forever on the watch and they've

00:07:58   had it kind of, you know, in recent years they've had it for the phone as well and the iPad,

00:08:02   and it works fine in recent years, it's just slower. So like any kind of build and run cycle

00:08:07   you do in Xcode, you know, send this to the device, go, that process is going to take,

00:08:12   you know, maybe two or three times longer over Wi-Fi than it takes over a cable.

00:08:16   So there's a pretty good reason why developers want to run cables to their devices most of the

00:08:20   time and the cables tend to be a little more reliable, but honestly Wi-Fi debugging in the

00:08:24   last like year or so with just iPhone development has been way better than it used to be. So anyway,

00:08:31   the Vision Pro, brand new platform, you know, designed from scratch, no cable debugging is

00:08:35   supported directly. So we're going to have this cabled battery that runs out off one side

00:08:42   with a 24-pin connector and a USB-C port on the other end of the battery.

00:08:48   You want to wire it to your computer with USB-C? Oh, you can't use that. No. You have to instead

00:08:54   buy a $300 accessory to wire this to your computer for development that has to replace the entire

00:09:02   other side arm of the thing and then you have two cables, one on each side running out from the back

00:09:11   of your headset. It is so cumbersome and it's such a weird decision. Why didn't they just enable this

00:09:21   same data connectivity through the many-pinned custom connector they made on the battery?

00:09:28   That's the mystery of the battery port. Why does it have even more contacts than regular lightning

00:09:34   when all it is doing so far is providing power? I mean, I'm sure there's some like there's,

00:09:40   I'm sure there's a small amount of communication pins, you know, for like for the battery to

00:09:44   communicate with the Vision Pro. Right, but did you need more pins than lightning? It's supplying

00:09:48   a lot more power than lightning ever supported, so I'm sure it has to split it up between those pins,

00:09:51   but they designed a custom connector with like with obviously, you know, with probably what it

00:09:57   seems like the future in mind, like future capabilities in mind with this large connector

00:10:01   and then they have a USB-C hole in the battery, but oh, you want to connect to your computer USB-C

00:10:07   or you know, through USB-C to the headset? Oh, you can't do that. You have to have now two cables

00:10:11   running out of it. We still haven't gotten to why this is in this section, which is that the thing

00:10:15   that connects that stiff little developer strap to the headset is another one of those things with a

00:10:20   tiny hole where you're not supposed to put a paperclip, but you probably totally can,

00:10:23   and what it does is eject the little stiff little things that are on the side of the headset,

00:10:27   and so you can put your developer one in, and how does it plug in? It plugs in with an even wider

00:10:32   lightning looking thing that is curved, so it's like curved wider lightning with many,

00:10:37   many contacts, and I think it's asymmetrical. I think there's more contacts on one side than

00:10:40   there is on the other. What like one more, how many different lightning looking connectors can

00:10:46   Apple make? This product alone has two brand new ones that we've never seen before. They can't stop

00:10:52   it. You know, they stopped making the main lightning connector on the new phones, and now

00:10:55   they're like, "We're itching. We got to keep using lightning. Somehow we're hooked." Yeah, they have

00:11:00   all these machines that know how to make lightning connector. Well, to be fair, the developer strap

00:11:04   one is, I mean, it looks like lightning, but it's not like a dead ringer for lightning like the

00:11:09   battery one is. It is the fact that it's curved, the size of the contacts, it's different, and

00:11:14   anyway, that $300 strap, yeah, it's expensive, but it does come with a special Vision Pro logo stamped

00:11:21   shiny silver ejection tool that's totally not a paperclip. That's going to be a collector's item.

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00:13:24   All right, so with regard to Vision Pro Wait, and we're going to talk about this article in the

00:13:31   future as well, I think, but there's a very good, I thought it was very good Vanity Fair article

00:13:36   that came out, I don't know, sometime over the weekend, I think. And Richard Howarth,

00:13:40   Howarth, the vice president of industrial design said, quote, "There's nothing we could have done

00:13:45   to make it lighter or smaller." Howarth explained, quote, "This is the state of the art." I don't

00:13:50   know if that's true, but I mean, I believe it. There's nothing we could have done like nothing.

00:13:54   So here's like my translation of that is if, uh, if we made it out of aluminum,

00:14:00   which we're totally going to do, and there's no way we're ever going to change that there's

00:14:02   nothing we could have done to make it lighter or smaller. And that I believe if you look at the

00:14:06   teardowns, they did a really good job of the thing, just lightweight materials. If you say it

00:14:09   has to be made of a single piece of aluminum carved out, they did a good job of that. I'm not so sure

00:14:15   it needs to be aluminum. Could it had been a piece of plastic? Maybe it couldn't, maybe the plastic

00:14:20   would melt. Maybe the plastic wouldn't be stiff enough. I don't know. But Richard Howarth is

00:14:24   unequivocally saying there's literally nothing they could have done to make it lighter or smaller

00:14:28   when the thing is made out of aluminum and glass. I'm going to give that a little side.

00:14:32   - With regard to peripherals, Vision Pro only works with some Bluetooth peripherals as per

00:14:38   a support document. Apple Vision Pro compatibility with third-party Bluetooth devices and accessories

00:14:43   isn't guaranteed. If you have trouble connecting Apple Vision Pro to your third-party device,

00:14:47   contact the devices manufacturer for help. - Good luck with that. Yeah, and we've heard in

00:14:50   particular this seems to apply a lot to mice and track pads and stuff. Basically, you can use Apple

00:14:55   stuff and you can try to use anyone else's stuff, it may or may not work. - I heard some people who

00:14:58   had some Apple stuff that wasn't working with it until they did the firmware update on the Apple

00:15:03   devices. So even within the Apple realm, you have to make sure your keyboard's firmware is updated.

00:15:08   And by the way, if you're wondering how to do that, you can Google for it. But since I use my

00:15:12   Apple keyboard plugged in, apparently it will never do a firmware update unless it's connected

00:15:17   through Bluetooth. So you have to unplug it, connect it through Bluetooth, and I think go

00:15:21   to the system settings or something and it will update the firmware. And then you can plug it back

00:15:24   in. - Oh, that's interesting. - Yeah, I didn't know that. That's fascinating. Speaking of your

00:15:29   piece of garbage computer, John, Apple Vision Pro's virtual display feature works with Intel Macs,

00:15:34   but limited to 3K resolution. Womp womp. If you have a Mac with Apple silicons, writes Apple,

00:15:39   it can appear in Apple Vision Pro at resolutions up to 4K. If your Mac has an Intel processor,

00:15:43   it can appear at resolutions up to 3K. - I guess I just don't have enough GPU power in this machine

00:15:49   that has more GPU power than any other Mac. - Seems not. - And then related to that, some people

00:15:55   were asking because a lot of reviewers seem to be saying this unequivocally and just getting it

00:16:01   wrong, saying that you can't use the Vision Pro to project the screen from your desktop Mac.

00:16:06   That is not true. If you look at all the Apple documentation and literally I know people who

00:16:11   have taken their Mac Studio and projected it into their Vision Pro, it doesn't have to be a laptop.

00:16:16   Now, when you have a laptop, I think there are some enhanced features like the little floaty

00:16:19   thing over the top of it or whatever that you click into to do the thing. But even if you have

00:16:25   a plain old desktop Mac, you can do the mirroring thing where you see your Mac screen inside Vision

00:16:31   Pro. So don't worry about that. - Yeah, anybody who's using screen mirroring in Vision Pro. So

00:16:36   there's the one way to do it where you look at your laptop and it sometimes puts up the little

00:16:41   connect bubble above it, as John was just saying. But the other way to do it, which is much more

00:16:45   reliable and will show your desktop as well, is if you open up the control center in the Vision Pro,

00:16:50   one of the buttons in the control section of it is screen mirroring for the Mac. And you hit that

00:16:57   and it just lists your Mac and you just pick it from a list. I have found so far that is far more

00:17:01   reliable than looking at my MacBook Pro and waiting for it to say connect. - Moving right

00:17:05   along, the Vision Pro syncs data when not in use. And I actually have a little bit of experience

00:17:10   with this myself. So there's a MacRumors post that says the battery pack for the Vision Pro

00:17:16   also powers Apple Vision Pro when you're not wearing it, allowing the device to sync your

00:17:19   mail photos and more. So last night I was using the Vision Pro in the hotel room watching a little

00:17:26   bit of a 3D Black Panther Wakanda forever, just to kind of try it out and see what I thought.

00:17:32   And I left it plugged in overnight. And when I had taken the Vision Pro off to go to sleep,

00:17:37   I want to say it was at like 80 or 90% battery, something like that. When I woke up, it was at

00:17:41   like 30%. It's like, wow, what the hell happened? And then it occurred to me, oh, I bet it was

00:17:45   syncing stuff. Cause it seemed like a lot more photos were actually on the device than were

00:17:49   previously and so on and so forth. And then I read this in the show notes. So I suspect that this is

00:17:54   all one of the same thing. - Yeah. And it's like for something with such short battery life,

00:17:57   if you're not plugged in, it's important to actually give it time to like, you're like,

00:18:01   why don't I see all my photos? Well, it has to, at some point have time to download those photos.

00:18:05   And we know that all of Apple's photos, things are afraid to do that unless you're not using the

00:18:10   device. So don't reflexively disconnect the power every time you stop using it, because then it will

00:18:14   never have time to download your photos because you're either using it or it's literally powered

00:18:18   off. - Is that the Vision Pro version of force quitting all your apps on the iPhone? - I have

00:18:23   a story about that a little bit later too. Yeah. - Oh no. - Yeah, that's not good. With regard to

00:18:29   performance throttling, Apple is trying to get ahead of the gate apparently. Apple Vision Pro

00:18:33   has built-in software and hardware systems that help reduce performance impacts that may be noticed

00:18:37   in certain conditions, such as a battery with a low state of charge, a high peak power situation,

00:18:42   or a chemically aged battery. The system is automatic, always on, and works to provide the

00:18:46   best possible performance. Power needs are dynamically monitored and performance is managed

00:18:51   to address these needs in real time. The system allows Apple Vision Pro to balance and reduce

00:18:57   performance impacts as much as possible. The user may or may not notice the effects on device,

00:19:01   which may be temporary. Depending on the device battery state and the tasks that your Apple

00:19:05   Vision Pro is handling, some examples of these effects might include longer app launch times,

00:19:10   lower frame rates, reduced wireless data throughput, screen dimming, or lower speaker volume.

00:19:14   If your device performance has been impacted by an aged battery and you would like to get help

00:19:18   with the replacement, contact Apple Support. - I feel like they're really covering their basis

00:19:21   here. We're just like, it could get hot and run low on battery and things are gonna get janky.

00:19:25   - Yeah. - You've been warned.

00:19:27   - Well, I mean, but to their credit, at least the battery is external. And so it's very, you know,

00:19:32   it's kind of costly to replace, but it's very easy to replace. Unlike most of their devices where

00:19:37   if you have an aged battery, you know, it can become very difficult.

00:19:40   - And the people who have taken apart will have links in the show notes to the iFixit

00:19:44   teardown. So the people who have taken apart the battery pack, there's the rating that's on the

00:19:47   outside of like the milliamp hours or the watt hours of the battery pack, right? But when they

00:19:53   took it apart and looked at the actual like little black, you know, lithium ion, bat pouch battery,

00:19:58   they're not pouches, whatever they are, like the battery packs that are in there,

00:20:00   it seems like based on what's stamped on that stuff, that the number that's on the outside of

00:20:07   the battery pack and watt hours is 20% lower than the actual capacity. So they may essentially be

00:20:12   giving you 20% more battery, but then lying to you and saying, there's not 20% more battery in here,

00:20:17   like essentially forcing that battery to never go above 80% charge. It's basically like three big

00:20:23   iPhone batteries inside there. So that's interesting if they're doing like the, essentially the electric

00:20:28   car thing of like, this is how much battery you have to use. Yes, there's more battery in there,

00:20:33   but that's not for you. Kind of like how SSDs are over-permissioned or whatever. And I think that's

00:20:37   a really good idea, especially for something with such low battery life as the, you know,

00:20:40   two and a half hours for the Vision Pro. - Jon has been on a tear with regard to

00:20:46   Vision Pro color reproduction. And I'm not going to handle this, Jon, this is all you,

00:20:52   but I will say that when you started down this path, I was like, Jon, nobody cares. Nobody cares.

00:20:59   You're the only one who cares. Nobody cares. And then I was using my Vision Pro in my hotel room

00:21:04   yesterday, day before, whenever it was. And I was doing the Mac virtual display thing where your

00:21:09   laptop is in the Vision OS world. And I looked down at my MagSafe connector and the laptop

00:21:16   was charging at the time. But I tell you what, whatever color that charging indicator was,

00:21:21   it was not the orange I expected. So even though in most cases, I don't notice this at all,

00:21:28   even having watched a modern film on the Vision Pro, there may be something more here than I

00:21:33   originally gave you credit for, Jon. - Well, so here's the thing, like,

00:21:36   obviously one of the reasons I'm evaluating the Vision Pro is because I watch a lot of television

00:21:40   and movies, and this is a great television movie watching device. So how does it measure up? And

00:21:45   I started down this journey learning that one of the areas where the Vision Pro is behind,

00:21:50   not just like good television sets, but also behind Mac displays is that the Vision Pro displays,

00:21:55   for all their amazingness, which we will discuss in a little bit, don't even do a hundred percent

00:22:00   of the P3 color space, which Macs have done for many, many years, right? We'll put a link to the

00:22:05   show notes to show you a diagram of how big is the color space for like plain old HDTV or the P3

00:22:10   color space or the more modern Rec 2021. So good televisions like mine do a hundred percent of P3,

00:22:17   and so do pretty much all good Mac monitors, but they also do over 90 percent of Rec 2020.

00:22:22   The Vision Pro doesn't even do a hundred percent of P3. So for color reproduction, it is not really

00:22:28   up to the task of showing all the colors in that Hollywood, modern Hollywood movie, as well as a

00:22:34   television set. Probably not a big deal, but worth considering this is a first generation thing, and

00:22:39   I was kind of surprised to see that it didn't even cross the bar that good Mac monitors have

00:22:43   crossed ages ago. And this of course led me down a journey of like display specs, because now people

00:22:47   have these, they're tearing them down, they're putting them underneath microscopes. So here's

00:22:52   what iFixit had to say about the Vision Pro resolution. As measured by literally ripping out

00:22:57   the Sony displays and looking at them in a microscope and measuring them, they're guesstimate

00:23:02   for resolution. And I think there's been official resolution numbers, but anyway, I'm just telling

00:23:06   you iFixit's guesstimate based on measuring, right, is that each one of the little eye displays is

00:23:11   3,660 by 3,200 pixels, and that is about 11.7 million pixels per display, which is roughly

00:23:18   the total of 23 million that Apple says it is. And the important thing that they were discussing is

00:23:22   like, you know, how good does this display look? I know we always talk about DPI or PPI, pixels per

00:23:27   inch, when we talk about Mac monitors and retina resolution, but now once we're talking across

00:23:33   Vision Pro and iPhones and all this other stuff, it's the equation changes a little bit because,

00:23:38   you know, those Vision Pro screens are like less than an inch from your eyeball. Like,

00:23:42   they're really close to your eyes. So all the stuff of like, oh, a good Mac monitor has to be 200 PPI.

00:23:47   Yeah, that's when you're looking at the monitor from like a foot and a half, two feet away.

00:23:51   What about when it's one centimeter away from your eyeball? Suddenly what you care about now is not

00:23:57   PPI, which the PPI for these screens is insane. I think it's over like 3,000. What you care about

00:24:02   is pixels per degree, as in if you look one degree to the right, how many pixels have you just

00:24:08   crossed, right? And there's 360 degrees all around you. So pixels per degree, PPD. And the Vision Pro

00:24:13   is 34 PPD, which is apparently pretty good for a headset display. And it's got roughly 100 degree

00:24:19   field of view, which is okay. I think the MetaQuest one is a little bit wider one.

00:24:24   According to THX, the movie people, the ideal viewing angle for movies is 40 degrees.

00:24:30   And the minimum recommended angle is 36 degrees. So you've got 100 degree field of view. And if

00:24:35   you're watching a movie the way THX wants you to watch it, and like the Motion Picture Association

00:24:39   have similar numbers, the movie screen should be 40 degrees in your field of view. So you shouldn't

00:24:44   really be filling your entire field of view with the movie screen. But you know, you do you,

00:24:49   whatever feels comfortable. Some people like to sit in the front row. Anyway, so that led me down

00:24:52   the run of doing the PPD calculator for all my other devices. I first compared it to my iPad Pro

00:24:57   11 inch, which I watch a lot of stuff on sitting in bed. That only has 28 PPD when viewed from the

00:25:03   distance that I view it at like 14 inches. It has 3.9 million pixels, which is fewer pixels than

00:25:09   a single one, significantly fewer pixels than a single one of the Vision Pro displays. And it has

00:25:13   a lower PPD, a lower pixels per degree, and an 86 degree field of view at that distance, right?

00:25:19   So Vision Pro wins in terms of resolution, number of pixels, probably everything except for color

00:25:26   reproduction, because again, iPad Pros do 100% of P3 at the least. A 65 inch 4K TV from five feet

00:25:32   away is 76 PPD and 8.3 million pixels. So it's fewer pixels by a little bit, but it's higher PPD.

00:25:39   Isn't that a bit close to be sitting to a 65 inch TV five feet away?

00:25:44   I don't know. I measured it in my house and my couch is kind of farther away. So I subtracted

00:25:47   a foot or two, but like five feet, you know, it depends on if you're in like a, you know,

00:25:51   some people have their TVs surprisingly close where they can actually stick out their feet

00:25:54   and almost touch the television. But five feet, I don't know, you can adjust it. It's still higher

00:25:59   PPD. Like maybe it's not more than double like 76 to 34, but you know, anyway, we'll link to the

00:26:06   PPD calculator so you can put in the distance because the distance matters obviously. So you

00:26:09   can put in the distance that your TV is, get out tape measure, measure to your couch, and then,

00:26:13   you know, put in the distance if you're curious. And that's a five feet away from a 65 inch TV is a

00:26:17   70, 51 degree field of view, which is still a little bit closer than the THX wants it. And then

00:26:23   finally Pro Display XDR from two feet away, which is about how far I sit from my monitor,

00:26:28   that's 20.3 million pixels, which is close to the amount of one of the Vision Pro displays. And it

00:26:33   is a hundred PPD at a 60 degree field of view. So the PPD Vision Pro is better than an iPad.

00:26:39   It's not as good as a TV and definitely not as good as a Pro Display XDR.

00:26:45   Yeah. And I think, and we'll get to this later as we talk about our experience with it, but

00:26:49   I look forward in general, I look forward to the Vision Pro display is getting much better. And

00:26:56   that's interesting because like they are remarkably good in their category right now. Like they are

00:27:02   cutting edge and super high end in their category, but this kind of gives you some idea of like

00:27:07   how far they have to go before they're really going to compete on a lot of these specs with

00:27:12   professional monitors. Like what we get in almost every other Apple product.

00:27:15   Yeah. Cause they're so close to your eyes. Like they're a feat of engineering. Like they,

00:27:19   they showed in the diagrams and the videos that we'll link of like, uh, how many Vision Pro pixels

00:27:24   can fit inside one iPhone retina pixel. It's like these, these pixels are like the size of red blood

00:27:29   cells. It's like, they're, it's so amazing. Cause they're so close to your eyes. I need to,

00:27:34   I need to just clarify here. That's not you being hyperbolic. I read somewhere. I don't have link

00:27:39   handy that no, that is legit legitimately inaccurate comparison. They are roughly the size

00:27:44   of a red blood cell. They are very, very, it's an amazing, you know, and you know, it's not,

00:27:48   not, it's not just Apple that has these displays. So I'm sure we'll sell them to other people once

00:27:51   they fulfill Apple's demand. And the, I think the meta quest pro has something close to that as well.

00:27:55   But, uh, but yeah, moving back from the monitor is a big win. So like pro display XDR is, you know,

00:28:01   or any, essentially any retina monitor, like the studio display, anything, any Mac retina monitor

00:28:05   with around 200 PPI viewed from normal monitor distances is better has finer detail than the

00:28:12   displays, but that's because the displays are just like stuck to your eyeballs. Right. So it's still

00:28:16   an amazing technological feat. Um, but yeah, they, they they've got a little way to go to catch up to

00:28:21   our plano monitors in deed. And then we will put a link in the show notes to the, I fix it tear downs

00:28:26   in video form and, uh, that they had at least one news like blog post about it. So we'll put links

00:28:32   to all these in the show notes. I haven't seen the videos yet, but, uh, I glanced at the, the text in

00:28:38   picture tear down and it was fascinating. I mean, a lot of it, I felt like we had seen in Apple's,

00:28:42   uh, like marketing materials and whatnot, but it's still fascinating. I strongly suggest that you

00:28:48   watch at least the part one video because the amazing thing about it is what it takes to

00:28:54   disassemble it. Cause it, it really, you know, Apple's been, been, you know, talking about how

00:28:58   this is the most complicated consumer electronic device ever made or the most, you know, whatever

00:29:02   words they're using. And when you see this video, you're like, Oh wow, that's correct because there

00:29:07   is so much stuff crammed into the vision pro. No wonder it's so expensive. You know, not only are

00:29:14   they using very high end components, but just the assembly alone on this, it must be absurdly

00:29:20   expensive because there is just, there are so many parts that are arranged in such like all, you know,

00:29:26   crazy custom ways, all in a very small space with probably ridiculous tolerances. Like I can't even

00:29:32   imagine the logistics of manufacturing this. And so it is worth, it is worth watching that part

00:29:38   one video just to see all those different parts that are in there and what it takes to actually

00:29:43   disassemble it. It kind of makes me even more annoyed that the XDR doesn't have a camera in it,

00:29:47   or if it did, it would be a cruddy camera when looking how many sensors and cameras and IR

00:29:51   sprayers and LIDAR things are jammed to that tiny device. It's only $3,500. It's a bargain.

00:29:56   One more thing about the teardowns, one of the more destructive teardown people who just like

00:30:00   damages things as part of his whole shtick, spend a little bit of time investigating the,

00:30:05   the scratch resistance of the front glass. And here's the thing about the front glass.

00:30:10   The front glass is a quote unquote glass laminate, but unfortunately slash fortunately,

00:30:16   the top layer of the laminate is plastic. And that's there, I assume so that if it shatters

00:30:20   little pieces of glass, don't go flying out into the world, right? Like kind of safety glass type

00:30:24   of thing. But that top level plastic, super easy to scratch like in court. Like I think it was like

00:30:31   between two and three on the Mohs hardness scale, which is not hard. And you may say,

00:30:37   Oh, I don't care if there's scratches over my fake eyeballs. What you care about if there's a scratch

00:30:42   over one of the umpteen cameras that are on that thing. So be careful with your vision pros and do

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00:32:47   Do you want to start with John and your experience with Vision Pro?

00:32:55   Yep mine will be the briefest because I have the least time with this but it is now a non-zero

00:32:59   amount of time. I did the in-store demo thingy that they offer.

00:33:03   I'm very glad you did. Did you do the thing where you just walk in or did you sign up in advance?

00:33:07   I signed up for an appointment and the first weekend it was for sale they wouldn't let you

00:33:10   sign up for an appointment so I had to sign up for the Monday after the weekend. I don't know

00:33:13   how long they're going to be doing this in the store but I would encourage everybody hey it's

00:33:16   free. You get to try Vision Pro for free, you can make an appointment, schedule some time to do it,

00:33:21   and get all the get-ins good. Anyway I went to do this just to have some experience with it at all.

00:33:27   The one thing to note about the experience is when they were setting it up obviously they've only

00:33:33   been doing it for like two days there's this whole big process that's not that interesting

00:33:36   where they measure your glasses and have you scan your face with your phone and do all this stuff

00:33:40   and then they bring the Vision Pro out with the lenses already in it. It's all nice and appley.

00:33:44   And then they have an iPad where the person who's guiding you through it will be able to see what's

00:33:49   on your screen. And that whole process of pairing, it was like an iPad Mini, pairing the iPad to the

00:33:55   Vision Pro so they can see and stuff wasn't working and I could clearly see that the person

00:33:59   who was doing the demo was trying to hit a button it wasn't working and I got to see right off the

00:34:04   bat when things aren't working what do you need to do? Twist that power connector on the Vision Pro

00:34:11   because there's no on/off button. You can't just turn it off and then turn it back on. You got to

00:34:15   disconnect the power connector and connect it back in. And the person did this a few times

00:34:20   and eventually called over one of the more senior Apple Store people to say hey I can't get the

00:34:27   thing to pair or whatever right. And you know what the solution was of course. I learned this from

00:34:33   messing with my Sonos stuff. You learn this by doing it. I learn this every time I help my kids

00:34:36   with something's wrong with their computer what is the first thing you try? They'll spend an hour

00:34:40   banging their head against it they'll be super mad they'll come to you and say you need to fix this

00:34:43   and then when I fix it they'll say what did you do? And you know what I did. You unplugged it and

00:34:48   plugged it back in? You got it baby. Person needed to reboot their iPad Pro as well. Oh well.

00:34:54   Don't just reboot the headset reboot both devices. Why do I reboot the Sonos? Reboot the phone.

00:35:00   Now it's working. Always turn it off and then on again. Anyway that started working. So putting

00:35:06   the thing on my face. I had read so much about the comfort and fit of the thing I kind of knew

00:35:10   what I was going for in terms of like how tight should the strap be? Where should you feel the

00:35:15   pressure? I tried to kind of make the pressure even between like my forehead and my cheekbones

00:35:21   right. They did not offer the dual loop so it's just the single thing only. So I got that as as

00:35:28   good as I could get it. I did notice and I don't know if this is a prescription lens thing or not

00:35:33   maybe you two can tell me or at least Marco can tell me because correct Marco you don't have

00:35:37   prescription lenses at all in yours? I actually got the reader lenses. I'll get to that later but I

00:35:42   I've been using them. Okay well anyway I have the prescription lens obviously and I did notice a

00:35:48   what I what I thought and I continue to think is some kind of reflection of Apple Store beige you

00:35:54   know the Apple Store beige like the tables and everything right? Some kind of reflection of

00:35:58   Apple Store beige in the lenses inside the headset at certain angles and there is light like the

00:36:05   light guard thing does let light in so there are places where the light is coming in. I don't know

00:36:09   if that was light coming from like behind me like in the gaps between my like temples you know what

00:36:14   I mean? Occasionally I did see that. I assume a more controlled lighting environment or a better

00:36:19   fit would solve that problem but I just thought it was worth noting. It would not. No I've seen

00:36:23   I've seen a fair bit of something that's either a smudge but I don't think it is or reflective

00:36:29   in inside the Vision Pro and this has happened to me fairly regularly so maybe my fit is totally

00:36:36   jacked I don't know but I don't have any lenses in mind because remember my eyes are trash but

00:36:39   the only way I can fix my eyes are with hard contacts and so I didn't put any lenses in

00:36:44   mind. I don't have any in the house you know mine is a vanilla Vision Pro. So for whatever it's worth

00:36:51   so a bunch of reviewers did mention glare issues and you know some you know whether it's glare or

00:36:57   flares or both on lenses that is definitely an issue with even the stock you know no additional

00:37:02   lenses configuration but also for whatever it's worth I'm in kind of a maybe unusual position here

00:37:09   that I have some need for reading glasses at certain distances but not a strong need so I

00:37:16   actually can use the Vision Pro just fine with or without these. So I've actually spent a decent

00:37:21   amount of time with both trying to figure out like what you know what is best and sharpest and most

00:37:25   comfortable for me so I can tell you for sure there is some flare with the stock lenses no

00:37:31   matter what and then also when I add the reader lens inserts to it there is noticeably more like

00:37:38   I like if you if you just like look up and down like move your head up and down you will see

00:37:44   reflections on the lenses it with almost any content you're looking at in almost any room

00:37:49   you're looking at. Do you think it's a reflection like an internal reflection of the screen image or

00:37:53   do you think it's light from outside? I think it's internal reflection but I could be wrong I mean

00:37:57   the and I'll maybe I'll get to all this I'll do some of this stuff early I'm glad I went to the

00:38:02   store because I got to try on a few different face shields and pads because however I was wearing it

00:38:10   there was always a decent amount of light leaking around my nose and apparently what we're hearing

00:38:15   from people is that that's actually kind of to be expected and there isn't really a perfect nose

00:38:19   seal for many people I guess I guess I have an insufficiently sized nose I'm not sure. I mean my

00:38:24   nose is plenty big and I still had that gap. Same and same. It's just the nature of the beast I feel

00:38:30   like it was like some people even arguing like that if you did maybe get an aftermarket thing

00:38:34   to seal off that part that it would just make the environment even less kind of breathable I know

00:38:38   the fabric is breathable and everything but like maybe that air gap actually serves a function but

00:38:43   yeah. Yeah regardless so so there are there are noticeable there's noticeable like glare and

00:38:47   reflections on the lenses whether you use lens inserts or not but there are more of them if you

00:38:53   use the lens inserts. Yeah so the the first thing you see obviously after the eye calibration thing

00:38:59   where the little motors move the stuff to line themselves up is pass through where you see the

00:39:04   world around you. Oh slow down slow down we should be a little more specific because remember not

00:39:07   everyone has tried this so the first thing that happens when you put on the vision pro if you if

00:39:11   it's not yours and you haven't in you've or if you haven't you know set this up for yourself yet

00:39:17   is you see an image that's kind of a representation of the vision pro and it says all right mash down

00:39:21   on the digital crown and what it does is it moves the eyepieces laterally inside the vision pro in

00:39:27   and out in order to fit your pupillary pupillary distance I think I both said that right and that's

00:39:32   correct the distance between each of your pupils the center point of your eyeballs that's what

00:39:35   it's trying to line up the things because it really and it when it's not lined up you see like

00:39:39   a double image and when it is lined up you don't I mean you might again you might have seen this

00:39:43   the eye doctor when they're adjusting the little thing that you're going to look through and you

00:39:45   see a double vision until it like comes together anyway that's that and yeah then it turns on the

00:39:50   pass through the pass through I've seen a lot of videos of people using the pass through and

00:39:54   obviously now I'm using the pass through the pass through is kind of like you're looking through

00:40:01   sunglasses indoors when that it's dimmer and I think that is a software choice that they're

00:40:08   making the real world dimmer and the reason I think it's a software choice is that when the UI

00:40:13   starts coming in the UI is not dim the UI is plenty bright that is customizable in software

00:40:20   and they they kind of raise and lower the light level in different conditions intentionally in

00:40:24   software so sometimes it is like just pure you know brightness transparent etc but like if if

00:40:29   for instance you go to watch video content usually it will dim the surroundings there there's also

00:40:33   some of the environments that you can set are just lighting modifications to your transparent

00:40:39   environment so you know some of them some of the environments you can set are like I'm going to be

00:40:42   on top of a mountain but some of them are just like make my room have fall light or something

00:40:47   like that yeah and just kind of tints the lighting color of the room or makes adjustments so anyway

00:40:51   so that that is that is variable if you try when he's on you're like oh the vision pro display

00:40:55   suck this is so dim it's not the displays believe me it's the brightness is not their their weak

00:41:00   point so that was interesting to note and oh by the way I had some friends who also did the in-store

00:41:05   demo one of my friends said he did this before me he did like I think the walk-in thing or actually

00:41:11   I think he he yeah it must have been the day before me anyway he said hey I tried it and at

00:41:17   one point they had me going through panoramas which I'll get to in a little bit and I got

00:41:20   motion sick and I had to bail in the demo and I was like oh no with just panoramas my friend is

00:41:27   not known for being particularly motion sick and he was getting motion sick and in the you know

00:41:34   30-minute in-store demo vision pro I hadn't even thought about this in ages like you know VR you

00:41:38   know that's basically the reason I thought about it is we've seen tons of reviews all the you know

00:41:42   people who use the WWDC all the press that went to review it then the reviews that are on YouTube

00:41:46   pretty much nobody is mentioning motion sickness and then I hear like a day or two before I'm going

00:41:50   to do my demo that my friend got so motion sick he had to bail out of the demo and like this does

00:41:55   not bode well for me right so I was so afraid I even told the person I'm like you just to let you

00:42:00   know I get motion sick so if there's anything you can do to like help me prevent that from happening

00:42:06   and I was already going to try to like not wave my head around like a madman or whatever but anyway

00:42:10   that's my mindset going into this so the the UI comes up I'm struck by the stability of the UI

00:42:16   again I'm pretty sure this is the very first VR headset I've ever used but what I have seen of

00:42:22   course is tons of video of other people using VR headsets like the you know they'll post a YouTube

00:42:26   video or whatever and I've also seen tons of video of people using vision pro when they post their

00:42:30   videos and this is one of the weaknesses of vision pro from marketing if you've seen a video of like

00:42:36   this is what the person inside the headset is seeing and everything's shaking all over the

00:42:39   place and it looks janky rest assured it does not look like that when you're in the headset

00:42:43   right because your eyes and brain perform a stability function and what that means is that

00:42:50   like when those icons of the home screen are floating over the table what everybody says

00:42:53   about them is true I am amazed at how non-jittery crap is inside here whatever windows icons things

00:43:01   and what I mean by that is like you're seeing pass through you see the apple store table you see the

00:43:05   whole apple store when those icons plop themselves in front of you they're like a foot in front of

00:43:09   you or whatever over a certain position in the table they do not move from that position in the

00:43:12   table now again I wasn't shaking my head around like a madman I'm sure I could jank it up a little

00:43:16   bit I'm intentionally trying to go you know but but they don't jitter they don't jump they don't

00:43:21   move around they are so incredibly stable and I'm like okay they did a good job with this again I

00:43:26   have nothing to compare it to I'm just saying like objectively with no other comparison other than

00:43:31   what is a real circle hanging in front of me look like they looked very very stable and it's very

00:43:37   impressive on the flip side of that is the part where you take your hands and put them in front

00:43:41   of anything that is displaying a window a background a panorama their ability to mask out your limbs

00:43:48   not hot it is probably the most janky thing that I have experienced inside the vision pro is how it

00:43:54   masks out your limbs granted it's a hard problem but if you want to see something that looks all

00:43:58   flickery and cyberpunk put your hand in front of something it's yeah it it you know it is what it

00:44:04   is it's not a big deal because it really doesn't affect you're using things and believe me like

00:44:07   you're not going to have your arm out in front of you when you're doing stuff right I'm sure the

00:44:11   apple store people would have told me not to do that if I had done it but of course I already

00:44:14   knew not to um eye tracking this is one of my experiences when I was doing stuff I was trying

00:44:19   to sandbag a little bit but obviously I already know how everything works right so they're like

00:44:23   do this and look at that and do this thing or whatever and one of the things I experienced

00:44:26   they'd be like okay just go you know see that x over there look at that and close the window

00:44:31   and whatever uh and I would look at it and the x wouldn't highlight and then I'd look at it harder

00:44:36   I don't know what I was trying to do in my brain what does that mean like once I'm looking at it

00:44:43   I'm already looking at it and they'd be like yeah just look at the x and close it and I'm like

00:44:47   believe you me I am looking at that x and so sometimes it wouldn't highlight and and so what

00:44:53   I would do in those scenarios is I was I would look at it and then I would look at it harder

00:44:57   which does nothing and means nothing but like mentally in my brain I'm like maybe I need to

00:45:00   look at it harder um but then I would just click which is you know the pinching gesture with your

00:45:05   hand then I would just tap and it would close the window but the x was never highlighted so I'm like

00:45:09   so that's how it's going to be basically like look even if it doesn't highlight like I don't know if

00:45:14   it's like the iphone keyboard where it's like you didn't hit the key you want but I know you're

00:45:18   probably going for that x so there you have it so maybe the calibration was over something but

00:45:22   there's that second thing is at one point I was watching video which I'll get to in a little bit

00:45:27   and and there was I wanted to resize the window to make it super big and everything and moved around

00:45:30   and stuff but the windows controls weren't there like normally when you look down below a window

00:45:34   you see the little control up here and you can look at it move the window and you and you can

00:45:37   look at the lower right corner and see the resize thing and I was looking in those places and the

00:45:41   controls weren't appearing so again I would look at them harder and nothing would happen because

00:45:45   that doesn't mean anything or doing it it's like I'm trying to conjure an orb and run around the

00:45:50   line parlor it's like I'm thinking in my head like look harder the control but no they would never

00:45:54   appear and the the uh the demo person was stumped as well until we eventually figured out it's kind

00:45:59   of like a a mac ui where you have to click before it will show the controls yeah I did the pinch

00:46:05   gesture once and then now when I look well and in hindsight it makes perfect sense because if you're

00:46:10   watching a video you don't want every time your eyes wander to the bottom of the screen like say

00:46:14   it has subtitles you don't want the freaking resize controls to constantly fade in and out

00:46:17   as you read the subtitles right and so this prevents that so just fyi a little ui tip there

00:46:22   and then finally they had me they were having me launch a bunch of apps and one of them was like

00:46:25   go to the compatible app section they had me launch an ipad app I think they have everybody

00:46:28   launched the same ipad app which is some like uh yumly like door dash type service right so it's an

00:46:33   ipad app it's running in a window when I you know it had like a tab bar at the bottom of the ipad

00:46:37   app and when I looked at like the home icon and the star icon or whatever they would not highlight

00:46:41   because it's an ipad app and whatever control they were using had no facility for an idea of anything

00:46:46   hovering over it right because you know an ipad app might have something hovering because it has

00:46:50   cursor support but whatever control they were using didn't know about hover so but I could

00:46:54   still use them so if I looked at the star nothing would happen it wouldn't highlight but if I did

00:46:59   the tap gesture it would click the star but there were other elements in that ui that did highlight

00:47:03   when I looked at them because they had kind of a sheen on it so that's an interesting you know

00:47:07   side effect using ipad apps I'm sure you'll both have much more to say about that when you talk

00:47:10   about using mac apps which is something I did not get to do despite asking um one final thing on

00:47:16   basic interactions um and I wrote a whole blog post about this we'll link it in the show notes

00:47:20   it's about spatial computing but uh from my perspective uh indirect interaction the vision pro

00:47:27   does not ask you to go out and grab things for the most part there are some things that do that you

00:47:31   can put your finger out and a butterfly goes on it and in those 3d scenes that we were talking about

00:47:35   you can manipulate things with your weird blinky hands that aren't masked out well or whatever but

00:47:38   in generally you're looking at things and then you're essentially clicking on them by making a

00:47:44   gesture with your hands and it doesn't really matter where your hands are which is an incredible

00:47:47   benefit because you do not want to hold your hands up you want them to just be sitting in your lap

00:47:50   it's way more comfortable but because we are human beings and we're used to reaching out and grabbing

00:47:54   things I found myself even though I knew about this even though I wrote a blog post about it I

00:47:59   found myself unconsciously essentially reaching for the lower right corner of windows to resize them

00:48:05   and that does not work like you know what I mean I'd be looking I'd be looking at video and I'd be

00:48:09   like now I just want to make this bigger and we do it on the max all the time like you're looking

00:48:12   at video and you just grab the the lower right corner and you resize it while you're still

00:48:15   looking at the video I found myself reaching my hand out to the very real looking lower right

00:48:20   corner of the video player and trying to pinch it with my hand and drag it out to make it bigger

00:48:25   and I did this more than once and both times I'm like why isn't this working and I'm like

00:48:30   of course it's not going to work that's not how this UI works so that was a I kind of wish it did

00:48:35   work that way because that would be super awesome but this is another thing that everyone is saying

00:48:38   which is like you have to get used to the idea that you literally have to look at everything

00:48:41   you manipulate which is not how we work in the real world I mean I hardly ever look at my mouse

00:48:45   and even when I'm using my mouse sometimes I'm not looking at the cursor because I know where

00:48:48   the cursor is and I'm using it to resize while I'm looking somewhere else so that was interesting and

00:48:53   embarrassing and we're kind of like when I pinch to scroll a paper magazine uh pinch to zoom a paper

00:48:58   magazine and it does not work panoramas was the next thing uh that's just the panoramas you take

00:49:03   with your iPhone right uh and they look cool because they wrap around you panoramas what will

00:49:09   what they show you is something that I found was one of the defining characteristics of this device

00:49:13   this device will show you the limits of the source material panoramas do not have enough

00:49:18   resolution and this is like the the apple demo panorama so whatever this panorama was taken on

00:49:23   it's the best panoramas provided this is not mine these are apples uh it does not have enough

00:49:28   resolution to look really cool but that's not the the worst thing about it because the next thing we

00:49:32   did was environments where you know you turn the little dial and you can be you know wherever that

00:49:36   place is with the lake and the mountains or you could be on the moon or you can be stuff like that

00:49:40   and for someone who has never been in vr before this and this is towards the end of the demo this

00:49:47   is where we start what I would call the convincing phase of the demo because all the rest of the star

00:49:52   is like oh you've got windows and it looks real cool but if you don't know about the technology

00:49:54   involved it's not that impressive once you turn that dial you might be thinking if you've never

00:49:59   used a vr headset or if you've never used vision pro you're going to turn that dial and it's going

00:50:02   to show a big wraparound picture of a mountain that is not what's going to happen what it's going

00:50:07   to show is what looks to you for all the world like a real mountain and a lake and it's just 3d

00:50:16   like we've all yeah I went to captain eo when I was a kid at epcot I've seen 3d movies it's

00:50:21   just showing a different picture to each eye they had like those uh what are they called um

00:50:25   things in like the 1900s they would you'd hold up to your face there's stereoscopes yeah there's

00:50:30   some other word for them right showing a different picture to each of your eyes is not a new human

00:50:34   technology uh what is new I think is showing each eye 11 million pixels the size of red blood cells

00:50:41   in front of your eyes and that does actually make a difference the difference between looking at a

00:50:47   panorama in this thing and turning on one of those environments is huge and now it's it's probably

00:50:55   going to be like I don't know think of anything that happened in my lifetime a color television

00:51:00   high definition television I remember when I first saw a high definition television that I was super

00:51:05   impressed by it but you the impression being impressed fades and it becomes you know a thing

00:51:09   you're used to that will happen with this as well but right now we're in the impressed phase

00:51:14   and it was something that I had never seen before like literally never seen before because

00:51:20   when have I ever had that many pixels in front of my eyes without some weird dimming or polarized

00:51:25   lenses or like flickering thing or whatever there is no comparison in any experience that I have

00:51:30   ever had of seeing something with that high fidelity in stereo and it really did feel very

00:51:37   different than looking at a big wraparound picture and there's just no way to express that in an ad

00:51:42   or a youtube video or anything like that you have to see yourself and then they they were then they

00:51:47   really cranked it up and they were showing like the spatial video from the iphone 15 pro and spatial

00:51:51   video from the vision pro I think in that order because the 15 pro wasn't as good because the

00:51:55   cameras aren't that far apart and the resolution is low and the frame rate is low the spatial

00:51:59   video from vision pro does better and then to top it all off they do what I think was described

00:52:04   the people at the apple store have like a script that they're essentially reading from the ipad

00:52:07   I think they actually described that as 8k I don't know what that means in this context but the 8k

00:52:13   360 degree spatial video of like Alicia Keys singing to you or a shark swimming up to you or

00:52:19   a rhino and again there is no there's nothing like that that I've ever experienced in my entire life

00:52:27   it's just two really high resolution HDR images being shown to each eyeball but if you've never

00:52:32   experienced it you should and eventually you will don't worry we all will and it will become boring

00:52:38   and our grandchildren will think it's dumb that we're even talking about it because that's just

00:52:42   how the world works but right now is not that time I urge you to go and try this if you've

00:52:48   never tried all the the big janky headset the heavy thing on your face the windows you don't

00:52:53   care about any of that just go to see a shark swim up to you in this headset when you see a

00:52:58   youtube video of it you'll be like so what it's a stupid video of a shark how many videos of a

00:53:02   shark that I've seen when you're in the headset it does not look like a video of a shark it looks

00:53:06   like you're in the water with a damn shark and I know that sounds dumb I know that sounds simple

00:53:11   but take this moment to if you've never experienced this too and if you have like

00:53:15   meta quest bro you experience this you're already there you were ahead of us you're an early adopter

00:53:20   but I have never done this before and like I went into this thinking I'll try it or whatever

00:53:26   just so I have something to talk about on the show I did not come close to buying one of these things

00:53:30   but I am way closer than I was before I entered that store this experiencing this device in real

00:53:38   life is very persuasive right like very persuasive and what it makes me look I was like look this

00:53:49   the stuff that I'm seeing it's a bunch of demo stuff there's nothing you can get like this it's

00:53:52   not a big deal like but I but you immediately see like in the future there will be content for this

00:53:57   and the thing will be better and it will be lighter and the price will be lower

00:54:01   like seeing sports and stuff and from it's like just it is extremely compelling and also the final

00:54:07   thing that I'll say is some of the things they were showing where like you're in a room with

00:54:11   people you see people playing sports or whatever it occurred to me also that media produced like

00:54:17   this like a like a television drama or a movie or whatever will be upsetting or compelling compelling

00:54:25   slash upsetting in a way that existing media is not probably the same way people felt when

00:54:30   seeing something like seeing violence in a movie in you know color right is more upsetting maybe

00:54:37   than reading about it in a book because you viscerally feel more like you're there like a

00:54:41   war scene with bullets flying over in the audio and surround sound like the the fidelity of the

00:54:46   experience can affect your emotions well I can tell you that the fidelity of the experience of

00:54:51   now seeing that in non-janky 3d where it literally feels like you're there and you can look around

00:54:56   is it feels so much more like you are in the room like in an upsetting way and so if there ever is

00:55:04   like dramatic fictional content which I imagine there will be someday in this format for old

00:55:09   people like us who did not grow up experiencing this it is going to be upsetting like maybe in

00:55:15   good ways maybe in bad ways but like like viscerally like imagine if there's like a play

00:55:20   that you're watching but you're on the stage during the play right and forget about stuff

00:55:24   that's not fiction like if you're watching if someone does like news footage from a war zone

00:55:28   in this format like there should be content warnings because it is so much more like you

00:55:33   were actually there than looking at it on a screen there are limitations you can't really move the

00:55:38   camera around that much all sorts of stuff that would probably would have made me motion sick

00:55:41   but apple was real smart in its demos where the camera was either locked off and did not move at

00:55:46   all which thumbs up for me or it moved super duper slowly and by the way once the camera did move like

00:55:51   they had one where it's like the camera was moving like the apple tv screensavers where you know like

00:55:54   whatever they're flying is going super slow towards an island in hawaii or something the

00:55:59   camera was moving it like like really slow if you've seen that screensaver like not fast at all

00:56:04   it moved three inches and I felt like I was like had been dropped out of a helicopter like that

00:56:09   you know stinking stomach feeling or like if you've ever done the sauron ride at epcot or

00:56:13   whatever multiply that by like 100 and it was moving like a half a mile an hour I can only

00:56:17   imagine looking at like going on a roller coaster in this thing or flying in a plane or whatever

00:56:22   it was something else and I know this is all that for everybody who tried this wwc everyone's had it

00:56:28   for a week I used to think for 30 minutes who cares but all I'm going to tell you is that

00:56:32   if you have not ever experienced hdr high-res stereo video of literally anything a stupid

00:56:38   bird someone walking back and forth in front of you you must do this because eventually your

00:56:44   grandchildren will be bored of it yeah you know just to jump in very quickly I think it's important

00:56:48   to reiterate or perhaps further explain that there's several different things that we're

00:56:53   kind of intermingling here you can watch a 3d movie and I haven't watched avatar yet maybe

00:57:00   avatar is different but with regard to like um wakanda forever which is what I chose to watch

00:57:05   it's still a rectangle that does not take up that much of the available viewport but there's a depth

00:57:13   to the image you're seeing there that's fairly similar to how spatial video works it's less

00:57:17   rigid on the edges but there is a viewport to what you're seeing there's depth within the viewport

00:57:24   but there's still a viewport and I have to add because they did that was part of the demo they

00:57:28   forgot to mention they had me watching the mario movie which is a computer it's a cg movie so it's

00:57:31   all 3d um I felt the same way watching the mario movie as I did watching like avatar in the theater

00:57:37   in 3d only it wasn't as bright uh I don't think the 3d in movies is designed with headsets in

00:57:45   mind in other words I think there is less depth like I know that you're talking about the viewport

00:57:49   but forget about the viewport pretend there was no viewport just the depth data is not

00:57:54   realistic depth data it is more like I don't know if it's compressed there's something about it that

00:58:01   and there's no reason on the cg thing for it not to have 100 depth data because it's literally a

00:58:04   computer they know the depth of every single pixel in that scene so it's not like they have to like

00:58:08   pick regions like oh this was the live action and this is the cg the whole thing is cg so there's no

00:58:12   reason for it to be like this but it was it looked flat and it wasn't just the rectangle the rectangle

00:58:19   didn't help but it wasn't just the rectangle so if you're going in this thinking you're going to and

00:58:22   again I didn't see avatar either but if you're going in this thinking 3d movies are going to

00:58:25   look radically different they won't they'll look like they do in the theater but uh much brighter

00:58:30   but that is night and day from alicia keys yeah and that's and that's the other kind of thing

00:58:36   that happens so there's a different mode for lack of a better way of describing it which is immersive

00:58:42   is I think the key word that they use here and what that is is you no longer have a viewport

00:58:48   we're not in the same way I was referring to it earlier as you move your head you are looking

00:58:53   around within the scene in which you're watching so in the case of alicia keys you know I was

00:58:58   talking to mike over the weekend and he described it I think very aptly as alicia king's singing at

00:59:02   you but that being said it is incredible to watch and what you're you you are in a studio I think in

00:59:09   la or something like that and as you pan and tilt and move your head around the image that you see

00:59:16   is moving along with it it is a fully immersive image and it's as far as the eye can see now there

00:59:22   is eventually an edge to it but it's as far as the eye can see you know when you first start it and

00:59:27   then as you look around you can eventually get to the edge but it's all around you and in the

00:59:31   alicia keys thing I watched a bit of that more than the demo you know I watched like maybe a

00:59:36   third of it or something like that and as you're watching it you can see that there's these white

00:59:41   pieces of furniture they're almost like obelisks and there's five of them or something like that

00:59:46   stationed throughout the studio and come to realize those are the 360 cameras because over time and

00:59:51   they don't show this in the demo they switch between these different points of view and in

00:59:56   every one of them you can turn your head left and right and the sound which you haven't mentioned

01:00:00   yet john but the sound coming from these these ear pods it is not as good as air pods pro at least

01:00:07   but it is astonishingly good and also the the surround the faux surround is astonishingly good

01:00:15   given that you've got these two ear pods that are solid you know a couple of centimeters away from

01:00:19   your ears it is very very good but anyway so yeah they're these immersive experiences I watched the

01:00:25   alicia keys one I watched the I think it's called highline or something like that it's about a

01:00:29   yep the tightrope walking one and then there's a dinosaur one and I think that might have been all

01:00:35   I saw but um they're incredible they're just mind-shatteringly good because it's like you are

01:00:42   in that scene you are there in a very different way for me anyhow in a very different way than

01:00:49   spatial video like spatial video you can say oh yeah that's about what it looked like isn't it

01:00:53   that's kind of similar to what it was like whereas with immersive you're freaking there it's it's

01:00:59   absolutely unreal spatial video is another example of showing limitations of the source material

01:01:03   it's definitely on the iphone where it's like I think it's like 1080p 30 frames per second or

01:01:06   something it's it's not yeah high resolution well it's not that much better from the vision pro I

01:01:11   think it's actually uh roughly the same specs like it has better space right but the vision pro has

01:01:15   the cameras farther apart like the cameras are eye width apart and I feel like that does make

01:01:19   a difference oh it could have it could have also I mean apple is providing this media so I didn't you

01:01:23   know whatever maybe they just had better lighting conditions for the uh like the one I saw was the

01:01:26   birthday one where they put the cake real close to you um those were not nearly the experience of

01:01:31   seeing the shark swim towards you in the water or whatever but I saw that and I said we need to start

01:01:37   shooting janky iphone 15 pro video of my kids right now right even though it's going to be

01:01:42   janky it's not going to look as good as the cool stuff but like look it's better it's literally

01:01:46   better than nothing we have an iphone 15 pro the cameras are too close together the frame rate is

01:01:51   too low and still we should shoot some of it not all of it we should still take regular video at

01:01:55   4k and everything but I want to have some of this so that was convincing enough to let me know

01:02:00   it's like unlike live photos and portrait mode and other stuff that apple introduced that I have no

01:02:04   interest in I'm going to do this if my kids will let me I won't tell them I'm doing it um even

01:02:09   though I know this is the worst version of this is ever going to be because it is more emotionally

01:02:15   connecting than seeing a flat photo in some cases right and so I want to have both I'm gonna have

01:02:20   high quality flat photos I'm gonna have good high resolution video and audio and I want to have some

01:02:24   of this spatial 3d stuff that's that's why I think when I look at this like my mind just shot forward

01:02:29   and like this is going to be so boring to my grandkids right this is just going to be something

01:02:34   that's in the world uh just like high definition television is not something my children think

01:02:38   about at all but I was so impressed when I saw the first high definition crt television like wow

01:02:42   looks like it's real uh that's this moment for me and and like the the sports stuff right like it's

01:02:49   not it's not going to replace everything in the whole world but it's it's compelling enough that

01:02:53   as soon as someone people see this they're going to say I will make a place for this in my life

01:02:59   just like we've all made a place for television and the internet and computers and all the other

01:03:03   things that we have that we don't use 24 hours a day and don't consume our entire lives but we make

01:03:09   a place for them because they do something that nothing is done in the same way before or don't

01:03:14   do it as well right so this this you know showing a high resolution high resolution picture to each

01:03:19   eye I feel like is the obvious next step in visual stuff and we've been trying to do it for ages and

01:03:25   this is not the first vr headset and I'm sorry if this sounds stupid for people who've been using

01:03:29   their meta quest for years and years and already know all this but this is my first experience with

01:03:33   it and just so happened my first experiences with these insanely high resolution screens and a really

01:03:39   solid like coherent experience with regard to the demo or well pickup experience I had an 8 30

01:03:46   appointment at the local apple store and our apple store is tiny it's it the all the people that work

01:03:52   there are extremely nice and I really enjoy them in the rare occasions I go in and chit chat with

01:03:57   them but they refer to themselves as like you know the wild west because this is not the fifth

01:04:02   avenue store which I was in yesterday this is not the soho store which I walked by yesterday you

01:04:07   know this is not the grand central store which you and I were in a couple of months ago like this is

01:04:10   a very tiny store and I thought well I'll just show up early because you know they never turn

01:04:15   me away for iphone stuff they're not going to turn me away now and I walk in I say hey you know I'm

01:04:19   early but I have an 8 30 appointment they said wonderful we'll see you at 8 30. oh really okay

01:04:24   yes never never tell them the time of your appointment just say you have an appointment

01:04:27   for whatever it's worth like I also went to a very small like long island store to pick mine up

01:04:32   my appointment was at 2 p.m I showed up at about 8 30 because I like I had something to do later

01:04:37   in the day and so I show up I'm like I'm like I hope they'll take me like I don't think they

01:04:42   even know what time your appointment is for I think they just know your day so you just give

01:04:45   them your name and never tell them the time well because I mean because I showed up and you know

01:04:49   because my store was also kind of the wild west could be you know because long island is the south

01:04:52   of the north it was empty like there was not only was there no line there was almost no one in the

01:04:59   store this was only 30 minutes after they had opened on launch day so the funniest thing about

01:05:04   the store was as I'm walking up to it and like you said Mark it was mostly empty I mean it was busy

01:05:11   for 8 30 in the morning since it doesn't typically open until 10 but given that it was the launch of

01:05:16   a brand new apple product it was effectively empty and as I'm walking in and I see off to the side

01:05:21   oh that's funny they had all the bollards or whatever you call it you know the like line

01:05:27   management the crowd control stuff yeah yeah exactly it was all still on the cart they used

01:05:32   to bring it in and out but it was clear they were prepared for a line that never showed up when I

01:05:38   was talking with the apple store person who gave my demo they offered the same exact thing because

01:05:42   I was commenting on how many people in the store and they said yeah on launch weekend we had the

01:05:46   the line thingies set up and we just ended up taking them down because we didn't need them

01:05:50   yeah yeah because for all you know because we were like you're saying like we were planning on this

01:05:55   to be like an iphone launch in our minds but you know you don't realize the scale of iphone launches

01:06:01   and then you know when they're now launching this brand new thing that's just a totally different

01:06:04   scale product you know the people people don't even know that they want it and also they do know

01:06:08   it's 3500 yeah exactly exactly so I go in they tell me and they're very kind about it but they

01:06:13   basically say looking at the wait so I'm chit-chatting with another person that was waiting for an 8 30

01:06:17   appointment I'm chit-chatting with some of the apple people whatever whatever at 8 30 they say

01:06:22   okay you know it's demo time and I'm like okay and I didn't I kind of wanted to get a marketing demo

01:06:28   but it seemed odd to me like I've already bought the freaking thing like why am I doing a demo

01:06:32   and I think the reality of the situation situation which I figured out after the fact based on

01:06:37   talking with a couple other people that went to other stores and my own store and and just

01:06:41   piecing everything together I think they wanted to do the demo in part to show you like how all

01:06:46   this works but also to do a fit check yeah but apparently you could have opted out of the demo

01:06:51   if you're really forceful about it but they would all but force you to do a fit check to like go off

01:06:57   to the side try on an example of a vision pro with the with the light shield and whatever that your

01:07:02   your app says you need and they would take a look at it and then if you pass the paycheck then they'll

01:07:07   give you your device and off you go I think that makes perfect sense they've got you there in

01:07:10   person anyway and they and like they don't know how well this whole face scanning thing is working

01:07:14   for people who are doing it at home so yeah it makes sense yeah for whatever it's worth I actually

01:07:17   did exactly that I opted out of the full demo because you know I knew I you know I'd already

01:07:22   had some time with it with the lab I attended a lab and then I also knew that like you know I was

01:07:28   going to get at home and just play with it all the time anyway so I'm like you know I and I knew I

01:07:31   kind of knew like okay they're gonna go through the press demo I've heard this press demo a thousand

01:07:34   times I've seen the video of the of the actor going through it they posted a few days earlier

01:07:39   like I don't need to go through this again but my the staff at my store was extremely nice and

01:07:44   extremely accommodating and again there was not a lot of other people there so they had a lot of

01:07:48   time to to deal with me being weird and so I I did just the fit check I didn't have the full walk

01:07:54   the demo they I just did the fit check and you know you go through you do the eye setup and you

01:07:59   kind of just see how it feels and see how it sits in your face and everything and I actually had

01:08:02   them bring out a couple of different cushions as I mentioned earlier so I I went through a process

01:08:06   of trying a couple different combinations of things but they were they were delightful and I

01:08:10   was out of there probably in 20 minutes speaking of fit though is one thing I've had to mention

01:08:13   when I took the thing off at the end of the demo there was sweat all around that thing like the

01:08:18   little that they on when they did give you the in-store demos they put kind of like a I don't

01:08:21   know some kind of like one of those tissue thin things like that you put on a public toilet seat

01:08:25   or whatever yeah around the it's a tasteful apple one don't worry about it but anyway they put some

01:08:29   removable stuff around the squishy face cushion thing and I for sure sweated straight through

01:08:35   that I didn't think I was sweating that much when I was in it it didn't feel like I was sweating

01:08:40   and I can't judge comfort in a half an hour though I will say that it I did not really like for as

01:08:46   someone who doesn't like air pod process they go in my ears I'm not a big fan of having that thing

01:08:50   strapped to my face not because it's heavy but because it presses against my face I'm not a fan

01:08:54   but I also sweat way into those little thingies that I never did get motion sick I didn't have

01:08:59   any problem with that but I was in an indoor controlled environment I wasn't overdressed

01:09:04   like and I didn't even realize I was sweating until I took it off I'm like oh there's some

01:09:09   moisture evaporating on a big ring around I felt like I should apologize so then for

01:09:13   sweating through the thing but I guess they'll just take it in the back peel the thing off and

01:09:17   you know if you're gonna do one of these demos maybe go now yeah no I asked them about like you

01:09:22   know like the logistics of you know how they how are they like doing stuff between people and

01:09:25   everything and they basically just said like they just have this whole process they go through in

01:09:29   the back of sanitizing everything between each person because you know it would be it would be

01:09:32   a little cumbersome and wasteful to have every single person get a whole new eye cushion just

01:09:36   just for sizing yeah no they're 30 bucks each retail yes exactly so they do have like a set

01:09:42   of ones that they reuse and they just clean them somehow and for the implication was it was fairly

01:09:47   involved yeah it's like at the bowling alley where they spray in the shoes same thing wow and then

01:09:52   what's interesting is like the one they bring out for you to test the fit with that's not the one

01:09:56   that you walk out of the store with they have the set of them that they test the fits with and then

01:10:00   they make sure your box has the right stuff in it and send you home with that box yeah which

01:10:05   actually that's the perfect segue because when it eventually becomes my turn at 8 30 or 8 35 or

01:10:10   whatever I go and I sit and there's somebody there with I think it was an iPad mini which is what

01:10:14   John was talking about which is you know going to mirror what's going on on the vision pro that I'm

01:10:18   using and I explained to them oh look you know I've done the I've done to the lab experience and

01:10:24   I can't tell you anything about it but I can tell you enough that you know it I can do the eye

01:10:29   tracking you don't need to tell me about all that can I just do like the the video related portions

01:10:33   of the demo you know the get me through I don't need the window management stuff just give me the

01:10:37   good stuff and dude was totally chill it's like yeah absolutely no worries it took something like

01:10:42   half an hour for me to get my bespoke vision pro to try this isn't the one I bought to try and it

01:10:49   does come on a delightful little platter which is very very cool and looks neat but they bring it

01:10:54   out it took forever for them to get me mine and I think reading between the lines based on what I

01:10:59   overheard and what I was able to glean from the Apple employee it seemed like our particular store

01:11:05   only had a couple I'm filling in some blanks here but only had a couple of light seals in each size

01:11:10   or and and the light seal in the cushion or whatever in each size and it seems like every

01:11:15   damn person that was doing a demo at 8 30 or 8 30 ish at you know the store I was in all wanted the

01:11:21   same one and so I'm in men's shoes yeah exactly and so what ended up happening was there's

01:11:26   effectively a queue just to get a light shield or whatever the heck it's called I always get it

01:11:30   wrong but to get the the the shield or in in cushion that I needed because everyone else was

01:11:36   using it at the same time they were starting to get not with me at all they were super chill with

01:11:39   me but they were starting to get pretty frustrated about the fact that was taking so long and it did

01:11:42   and it was it was not a delightful experience like the the store people made it as great as they

01:11:47   could but it was not great anyway so I do my demo and then I you know go and I ask for you know I

01:11:53   say okay I'm ready to pick up my device and then it took like a solid 20 30 minutes for that to get

01:11:58   put together and I didn't realize at the time and Marco I think you you said so just a moment ago but

01:12:04   what they're doing is they're filling this gigantic box with the particular components that you need

01:12:10   and then they're sealing it in the back of the store so the good news is you know they're not

01:12:13   making you like unbox it and do a fit check with the one that you bought you know they're doing

01:12:16   this all with fresh stuff in the back like you had said Marco but it took for freaking ever I

01:12:22   walked into that Apple store at eight and I think walked out at 10 or something like that it was

01:12:26   bananas how long it took yeah and keep in mind too like you know this was day one the morning

01:12:31   immediately at the beginning and and and like the the retail logistics of this are so complicated

01:12:38   like yeah absolutely and and again like you mentioned like the people are the retail staff

01:12:42   largely at Apple stores is delightful like they're they they they hire very well they train very well

01:12:47   it really shows like the the people in Apple stores are always the nicest people and and you

01:12:51   could tell like they are that that first day you could tell they were like a little bit running

01:12:55   around with their heads cut off because it was just there was so much you know new logistical

01:12:59   stuff to deal with yep I couldn't agree more yeah and they were you know I noticed when they were

01:13:03   going through the thing I was on the third day and they were still like going through the scripts you

01:13:06   know learning the parts of like they hadn't done this a lot and I was shocked when I went there I

01:13:10   went there at 10 30 on a Monday I think it was and I'm like what are all these people doing the Apple

01:13:17   store don't these people have jobs because I thought I'd be the only one in the store who the

01:13:21   heck is going to the Apple store at 10 30 on a weekday right but they were doing like six vision

01:13:26   pro demos at the same time so they met I got the couches but they apparently got enough vision pros

01:13:31   to run a lot that's all there was in the store was just like one sad person who had a broken computer

01:13:36   and then just a phone or whatever and then just vision pro demo demos as far as I could see and

01:13:41   and speaking of the little tray like you know the little you know there's a special tray of course

01:13:45   there has to be that exactly fits the vision pro that they bring it out to you on or whatever

01:13:48   I'm told but I think if someone said this I'm asked on that if you are at one of the fancy stores

01:13:53   that has the new like colorful benches that you sit on for vision pro that there's like a little

01:13:57   uh like a nightstand or a little like a desk arm thing like a place where they put the tray when

01:14:02   they bring it out to because you're not at a table you're sitting on kind of a bench there's a place

01:14:05   where they put the vision pro on the tray and according to this person the tray has magnets in

01:14:10   it and there are magnets in the place where you put it so it will always be exactly correctly

01:14:14   centered and aligned on the thing that they put the tray down on that's unreal it's really

01:14:19   important that you're doing your I mean I the only thing I can think of is maybe they don't want you

01:14:22   accidentally knocking the tray off or something but yeah they're thinking everything over there

01:14:26   do you think apple might be the world's leading consumer of magnets could be I don't know are they

01:14:33   recycled magnets I don't know oh I mean probably they're just iron but they're not just iron

01:14:38   oh yeah right all the rare they're all the rare earth magnets yeah now they're yeah magnets what's

01:14:42   interesting too like speaking of magnets before I forget this one little nitpick that the vision pro

01:14:48   hardware design has the light shield and then the pad on the front of the light shield both attaching

01:14:56   to each other and then the headset via magnets the way you would naturally pick up this device

01:15:02   yeah I think in many cases you would pick it up by the light seal apple clearly knows this because

01:15:10   they tell you so many times the correct way to pick it up with like two fingers what you

01:15:16   basically pick it up by like the nose bridge and the top center of of the actual you know you pick

01:15:21   it up by the aluminum part yes and you can tell because like one time I did accidentally pick it

01:15:25   up a little bit by the light seal and it just popped right off I'm like oh yeah I think they

01:15:28   calibrated it to the magnets to be weaker so that you don't that you literally can't pick it up by

01:15:34   the because if they had if they're like oh they should make the magnets that's just asking for an

01:15:37   accent I think they made them as light as they could nobody but the problem is you can pick it

01:15:42   up by the light seal and then it will fall down really I guess the thing was so loose that I felt

01:15:46   like you couldn't even lift it up from it those magnets are not strong maybe they need to make

01:15:49   them even looser because it's not like that like it's it's under compression when it's on your face

01:15:54   so it's not like it really needs much to just be positively aligned but they yeah they need to make

01:15:58   it so loose that it is literally impossible for you to pick it up by that because it is going to

01:16:02   come off no I think they need to have that just attached via latches like there has to be you know

01:16:06   have a release button somewhere like have it be mechanically attached have both pieces not magnetic

01:16:11   because the number of people who are going to drop and break their vision pros because of that

01:16:16   I think is going to be substantial and that that's that's that's just a bad design like that that

01:16:21   should really be more physically secure maybe people will pick it up by the strap and you can't

01:16:25   pick it up by the strap I guess yeah but trust me this a lot of there's gonna be a lot of broken

01:16:30   vision pros because people pick it up by the light ship by the light seal I guarantee it all right so

01:16:34   that was my my in-store experience like it was not stupendous but like Marco had said you know it's

01:16:39   the beginning it was the early in the day you know there it was said I was set up for failure

01:16:43   you know head to toe top to bottom but then that's okay I did get to you know use it a bit over the

01:16:50   weekend I did some demos for friends and that mostly went okay but most of my exposure to the

01:16:57   vision pro because I've had such a busy weekend and then a few days when I was in New York most

01:17:01   of my a lot of my exposure was over the last couple of evenings before bed and on the train

01:17:05   but I'd like to save that until after Marco how is your you've mostly covered your pickup experience

01:17:10   but what have you been doing over the last few days with this thing so I want to start just with

01:17:15   like the the eye can you know I set up you know how does it look how you know what's the physical

01:17:22   reality of this so again with the disclaimer that I do have prescribed a need for reading glasses

01:17:29   for things that I that I hold close to my face you know maybe a distance of you know it's less

01:17:34   than my arm distance but it's not that much less than my arm distance and it's a very it's a minor

01:17:39   it's like a 0.75 reader prescription for that distance so it's it's a fairly minor and and light

01:17:45   reading prescription so that being said the vision pro I cannot really get it to look very sharp most

01:17:53   of the time and I've heard a couple of other people say this or say similar things so I think it's not

01:17:59   just me somewhat it might just be like the limits of the displays of just which parts when you say

01:18:05   not sharp like give me an example I see that and it looks doesn't look sharp to me where I notice

01:18:10   it most is actually in the immersive video content and so I'm not sure if it's the limitation of the

01:18:15   resolution of the content or if it's the device but also like I've seen I've had similar issues

01:18:21   with the quest headsets when I've tried them the main issue is like stuff in the center of the

01:18:28   of the screen is fairly sharp as I look at things more towards the edges of my field of view it's

01:18:34   less sharp and there's also a lot more like color fringing that that I see along the periphery of

01:18:41   the view and again so I don't know how much of that is the optics that everyone sees or how much

01:18:45   that is just my eyes is this with or without the lenses in it so I've tried it both ways so I I got

01:18:51   the Zeiss reader inserts that are for that range the 0.75 to 1.25 I think so I got those and I've

01:18:58   used it about half the time with those about a half time without those and every time I swap them

01:19:03   I go and recalibrate everything and go through all that just to make sure I'm giving it the best

01:19:06   possible chance I've tried both straps different tightness levels both the regular cushion and in

01:19:14   the box they give you a regular depth cushion and like an extra deep it's like the w plus or the n

01:19:19   plus cushion and the vision pro once yelled at me that I my eyes were too close once I once I

01:19:25   inserted the reader lenses it said my eyes are not too close I think my my glorious eyelashes might

01:19:30   have been hitting the glass you don't want that and so it says you should really use the w plus

01:19:35   cushion so I switched to that so I've tried a lot of different combinations and I again I've done

01:19:40   as much like recalibration and adjustment and everything as I possibly can and it's hard for

01:19:45   me to get everything to look sharp but it's close enough now that like like the native UI elements

01:19:52   the windows the text like that kind of stuff looks sharp enough like that it looks pretty sharp where

01:19:57   I have issues is again the periphery of the view and a lot of the like immersive video content that

01:20:03   that's a little bit tricky for me speaking of sharpness and the video content one of the things

01:20:08   that I did when they were showing one of the first quote unquote 8k whatever immersive videos is I

01:20:13   looked all the way to my left to see essentially where the horseshoe of the viewport ends like if

01:20:18   you can imagine like a billboard in front of you wrapped around you in a u-shape you can if you

01:20:22   look all the way to the left find where the edge of that billboard is like and same thing if you

01:20:26   look down in front of you you can see where it essentially intersects with the desk that's in

01:20:29   front of you or whatever anyway I made it a point of looking at those intersections and I think two

01:20:34   things were working for me here one the pass-through is another example of this device being limited by

01:20:40   the source material because the pass-through cameras are not up to the resolution on these

01:20:45   displays like they it looks kind of potato-y um because I think it's just because the cameras

01:20:50   aren't good enough right uh so whatever fine um it's more important for it to be in sync it is

01:20:55   but then when I looked at the edge the edge of the big wraparound billboard the edge of that

01:21:00   billboard of whatever Alicia Keys room or whatever the thing was in was so razor sharp I must have

01:21:05   stared at it for an amount of time that the demo person was like why is this person looking at

01:21:09   don't they realize the action is happening in front of them I looked at the like rounded corner and

01:21:14   razor sharp edge of this giant billboard that was wrapping around me I'm like how can that be so

01:21:18   sharp and I'm looking for chromatic aberration right I'm looking for the things you're talking

01:21:21   about it was so razor sharp and it may just be because the background was the pass-through was

01:21:26   potato-y and dim whereas Alicia Keys was being fed from a file that's on the device and did not have

01:21:32   to deal with the go through the camera but it looked so sharp so like I cut myself on it I was

01:21:38   like I cannot believe the the resolution of this thing on the other hand when I was scrolling safari

01:21:43   I'm like ah this text is you know this text could be better like my xdr looks safari looks better on

01:21:48   my xdr but whatever the hell they're doing with the hdr video and the edge treatment of that thing

01:21:52   thumbs up so I guess whatever sharpness problems you were having because if you think about

01:21:57   periphery I'm turning my head but I'm also turning my eyes mostly because I was kind of embarrassed

01:22:01   to be looking literally to my left when Alicia Keys is in front of me or whatever I think I

01:22:06   was looking at the edge of the the tiny screen while also looking at the edge of that thing

01:22:11   and sharpness absolutely did not suffer and also I never noticed the foveated rendering I also never

01:22:17   noticed which obviously was happening every time I look anywhere but I was never able to catch it

01:22:21   some people said they've been able to catch it but maybe I was just too wowed but I I never caught it

01:22:26   like following my focus and rendering you know what I mean I mean so on some level I am kind of

01:22:32   relieved to hear that it's not a problem inherent to the hardware on another level this sucks

01:22:37   because I can't get it to look as good as your is it's looking to you I mean people have said that

01:22:40   they've seen chromatic reverberation and people who have like analyzed it like by machine and not

01:22:44   vision it could just be my vision is too crappy to notice it but I I stared at it for a while you

01:22:49   couldn't not notice the level that I'm seeing maybe it's because my regular vision is not as

01:22:52   sharp as yours right and it's just it's it it passes the bar for me or whatever but people have

01:22:58   like there's a tremendous amount of processing going on with that image that these people who

01:23:03   are like analyzing it but like shoving like a camera up to the thing and fooling it into running

01:23:06   you can see all the tricks that it's doing but whatever tricks it was doing those tricks worked

01:23:11   on me well I'm I'm glad I I hope at some point there's a version of this that I can see very

01:23:18   sharply as sharply as you seem to be seeing it because again like the rest of my eyesight is as

01:23:22   far as I know perfect like you know I'm 20/20 for everything else just like you know I'm I'm 41 I

01:23:27   need reading glasses for things up close now that's it so I don't know what it is but again I've had

01:23:32   the same problem with the quest headsets I've tried oh well we'll move on because you know this

01:23:37   sounds like it's just a me problem which again is frustrating it doesn't get worse over time no like

01:23:42   if you're in it for an hour no it stays exactly the same the whole time from the beginning to end

01:23:46   anyway so otherwise like you know comfort and fit wise otherwise I have not any real problems with

01:23:53   it I haven't been I haven't used it for like a whole movie yet I haven't had time to like watch

01:23:58   an entire movie front you know beginning to end so maybe after a long time I might you know I might

01:24:02   start to feel the weight but so far for me comfort wise it's fine I would love it to be lighter of

01:24:07   course like everyone else but I can deal with it I've tried both straps that you know the little

01:24:11   two strap version and this and the big fancy singular solar strap they're both totally fine

01:24:17   for me in different ways neither one of them seems to have any major problems on me so that's good I

01:24:21   mean it's probably you know I have neither hair nor makeup so that helps I think with all the

01:24:28   strap issues but otherwise like that's been fine moving on to the tv and movies a little bit you

01:24:33   know I was just saying like it was actually fairly difficult for me to watch the what you're

01:24:39   describing like the 3d immersive videos like with the have like the 180 degree field of view

01:24:44   because two reasons I think I've had trouble with them so I watched Alicia Keys I watched

01:24:50   the High Line I think there's one more that I watch oh the dinosaur one with like the those

01:24:54   weird like bird dinosaur things in the sand the problem I have two issues with these number one

01:25:00   is that what they're shooting looks like a 3d scene that you are freely in and can look around

01:25:07   because it's the 180 degree field of view but it was still shot with cinematic cameras and a

01:25:13   cinematic style and what that means is there is shallow depth of field very frequently because

01:25:19   that's how things are shot on video and that's partly optics it's partly a creative choice

01:25:24   but there are certain things in the video that the filmmaker chose to make in focus in each scene

01:25:29   and certain things that they didn't but if you're looking at a scene that takes up your entire field

01:25:34   of view and that you feel immersed in I kind of feel like I should be able to look around the

01:25:37   scene and look at anything and what I'm looking at should be naturally in focus the way it would

01:25:42   be if I was there looking at it I meant to mention that a lot the most convincing 3d ones I've seen

01:25:47   and I also think their environments benefit from essentially having a really narrow aperture in

01:25:52   camera thing where the depth of field is huge which what that means is that things are in focus

01:25:57   one foot from you two feet five feet ten feet all in focus because the aperture on the camera is

01:26:03   very narrow and the only light rays of light that go in it are the ones that are so called linear

01:26:06   but anyway like that works best for exactly that reason because unless it's not clear where it

01:26:13   tracks where you look but the as we've discussed at length of the past the focal distance is always

01:26:17   the same and yeah it knows where you're looking but it does not currently change the focus like

01:26:23   you could have like a light field video or something that could change the focus or something

01:26:26   that's not how this works right so when you're looking at the video you look at that blurry part

01:26:29   it is never going to not be blurry it is it's blurry in the video it's a h.265 compressed file

01:26:33   it's playing for each of your eyes and that video you're looking at you can look at it all you want

01:26:37   it's going to be exactly as blurry as it is in that encoded video file and the environments like

01:26:42   by the lakeside type thing i think part of the reason they look so amazing is they've somehow

01:26:46   taken it so that like everything is in focus the dirt on your feet is in focus well those

01:26:51   environments are rendered they're not video yeah there you go that's why like our friend

01:26:57   steve tratton smith like found like it's all they're all like you know i think they're like

01:27:00   you know reality 3d whatever scenes like they so the reason with the environments look so good it

01:27:06   because and if you think about it for a second it makes sense in those environments you can shift

01:27:11   your head around a little bit to like you know you can shift your head left right in out and

01:27:16   the environment the view the environment you can you can like kind of look around the edge of the

01:27:20   rock that you're that you're next to or whatever so which you can't do in recorded 2d video right

01:27:24   so it kind of has to be a 3d rendered environment or have other some other kind of ridiculous some

01:27:30   other kind of composite i don't actually know how they're doing it yeah but whatever it is like the

01:27:34   the the environments that you can like you know set as your background those seem to be just 3d

01:27:40   renders of very high quality you know so maybe they captured it with some really good cameras

01:27:44   and then modeled it after who knows but those are renders not videos when i'm actually watching

01:27:49   videos i do i find that i have this problem a lot where like what i'm focusing on is not what they

01:27:54   focused on and it kind of breaks the illusion for me and makes me feel like i almost like feel like

01:28:00   i'm getting eye strain trying to trying to watch it yeah that's also one of the problems with like

01:28:04   the mario movie because it's a similar type of thing there's like shallow depth of field in a

01:28:07   particular shot or whatever and it looks 3d ish but it's the same thing you know if you watch any

01:28:11   3d movie in the theater it's exactly the same problem if you if you decide that what you're

01:28:15   interested in is something that is not in focus it will never be in focus because it is just one flat

01:28:19   video uh and you know there are technologies that allow uh you to focus on different ports like the

01:28:25   light field camera things that have like a million lenses and you take one photograph and then you

01:28:28   can put different areas in focus and this is not portrait mode where it just blurs crap it's

01:28:32   different than that it gathers the light information for all those different depths of field

01:28:36   and if you combine that technology with a technology that is not in the vision pro but

01:28:40   that facebook has done a lot of research into which is hey when we know where they're looking

01:28:44   change the focal distance you could achieve what we're you know what you get what maybe

01:28:49   our great-grandchildren will get which is wherever i look when i refocus my eyeballs i can see the

01:28:55   blurry things like that that is technologically within our reach but it would cost you know

01:28:59   twenty thousand dollars and still kind of be janky so apple kind of hit the sweet spot here where it's

01:29:02   like fixed focal distance uh the stuff that looks best is the stuff that's in focus and every

01:29:07   everywhere uh and if you look at something that's not like that uh it'll be like watching you know

01:29:13   avatar in the movie theater where yeah some things are going to be out of focus don't spend time

01:29:16   staring at them yeah and so for whatever it's worth so like a 3d movie like avatar like that

01:29:22   kind of like before i had watched it in the vision pro i had never seen a 3d movie ever anywhere not

01:29:27   in the not in the theater not on some weird tv from ces 15 years ago like never so i was looking

01:29:32   through like you know what's available and it turns out um the uh the three most recent star

01:29:37   wars trilogy movies episode seven eight and nine those are all available in 3d i know i like them

01:29:42   hey it's just i don't want to hear it i like them and you know what i like all three of them and

01:29:47   screw you anyways no i'm saying for that so that for the uh no that's not what i'm groaning about

01:29:51   i love the first one okay the third one is bad but anyway i like it it's because it's the 3d

01:29:56   right so here's the thing cg movies like i said could in theory have perfect 3d because it's

01:30:00   literally a 3d scene in a computer and it knows the depth of every single pixel but for live

01:30:05   action movies that are quote-unquote shot in 3d especially older ones they would not cheat but

01:30:11   like yeah they use a stereoscopic camera for this but the background plate is flat and they could

01:30:15   end up having that kind of like effect that you get in like uh what is it called the uh

01:30:19   disney animation thing where you have multiple uh multi-plane stuff parallax yeah parallax right um

01:30:26   so it can sometimes look like you're looking at a diorama like some 3d things on top of a 2d plane

01:30:31   that's behind a 2d plane i again the mario movie i don't know why it looked like that that must have

01:30:36   been a choice they made to sort of flatten out the 3d and to make it look more like a you know a bunch

01:30:40   of parallax uh 2d animation but older especially older 3d movies i don't know if it's a star wars

01:30:45   movies in particular because i haven't seen them in 3d but especially older 3d movies they're from

01:30:48   sort of the dawn of 3d that are not avatar caliber and not all cg can look a little bit like you're

01:30:55   looking at a toy box with a bunch of paper cutouts that are stacked in front of each other which is

01:30:58   cool but it is not the full 3d experience but anyway you think the full didn't the star wars

01:31:03   movies didn't look like that to you so i only watched like you know a few minutes of force

01:31:07   awakens i don't have time for what's the whole thing but i was pretty impressed by how it looked

01:31:12   like i because i had heard that complaint about 3d movies in general i didn't know if the if it

01:31:16   has that problem it wasn't enough for me to notice it but again this was only over a few minutes but

01:31:20   i will say my experience of watching the 3d star wars movie in the regular like you know movie

01:31:26   rectangle that's floating in a fixed space optically speaking that was way better for me

01:31:32   than the fully immersive 180 degree video views i didn't have the sharpness problems that i have

01:31:37   with the 180 degree videos i didn't have as much like you know weird issues with me focusing on

01:31:42   things that were actually soft in the video like i didn't have any of those issues when i was

01:31:46   watching 3d star wars so i i think for me personally this this is a much more compelling device for

01:31:53   movies like for regular movies or 3d regular movies rather than the filmed immersive video

01:32:00   but that being said what i like better than both of those is the rendered environments that you

01:32:05   can sit in and have your podcast playing in or what or you know put in your notes document or

01:32:09   whatever i love those environments and i really hope apple continues to add more of those on a

01:32:15   regular basis i would i would absolutely love more of those same when i came out of that store i said

01:32:20   national geographic should be selling packs of these for 25 they will make a bazillion dollars

01:32:26   like just the environments like because this is a consumable this is the this is that you're

01:32:29   wondering what the beer drinking app is for the vision pro it's this those environments and again

01:32:34   if you're thinking like what is it just like you're looking at a big picture of mountains

01:32:37   around you no that is not what it's like i cannot tell you how much that is not what it's like no

01:32:41   and if they sold packs of those i would be throwing i you know five dollars to one ten dollars

01:32:47   to one like and what is the cost of this some fancy camera equipment or 3d you know thing like

01:32:53   like there there is you know making one of these good is probably costly but a good 3d artist can

01:32:58   probably do it and oh boy i i would spend so much money on those because they are so compelling to

01:33:03   just sit there and you're like so what do you do like you just turn it on and then you're there

01:33:06   like yeah that's it that's literally it well you can that can you that can be it you can just sit

01:33:11   there or you can open up windows and work there like it you know and then it's like you're working

01:33:17   on a mountain or whatever like that's you can totally and and yeah though i am with you i that

01:33:21   is possibly my favorite thing to do on vision pro is just go those environments and just hang out

01:33:26   or do something simple like that that i think is a huge market for vision pro is kind of just

01:33:32   transport me to a nice place and make it seem as realistic as possible i don't need there to be a

01:33:37   story happening around me just bring me somewhere nice like kind of like you know a virtual virtual

01:33:41   vacation or virtual tourism um or any just even just again like like almost like a you know

01:33:46   meditative spaces could also be useful here there are so many great applications for that and that is

01:33:51   extremely compelling when you're in the vision pro that is by far my favorite immersive type

01:33:56   of experience and the little dial that that fades it in they do that in a smart way so there's kind

01:34:01   of like a semi-circular cut out in front of you like so i've seen a lot of people online who

01:34:06   basically like oh i so i pick my favorite immersive environment right and i dial the little dial so

01:34:10   that i can still see everything on the desk in front of me so like there's a little semicircle

01:34:15   in front of them where their desk is visible and pass through where they see whatever it is they

01:34:18   have in front of them and then the immersive environment appears and they basically dial it

01:34:22   in so they can interact with the stuff that they need to interact with but everything else is you

01:34:26   know the moon or like uh you know whatever that lake is at the side of the mountains i even saw

01:34:30   some person was using it on a rowing machine and they wanted to be able to see like the i don't

01:34:35   know some stats or screen that's on their fancy rowing machine but also feel like they're on like

01:34:39   a mountain lake type thing or whatever again i wouldn't recommend wearing this for exercise that

01:34:43   was the point of this video is like can you use it for exercise but the way they've implemented

01:34:47   immersive environments and the way they allow you to dial it in is not just like how much do you

01:34:52   want it is literally uh dial it so that you can do all the things in the real world with your real

01:34:57   hands on your real physical surfaces that are in front of you while also getting to experience the

01:35:02   immersive environment and then by the way when you dial it all the way to like 100 percent

01:35:06   uh you have arms and you have hands but you do not have a body or feet or legs so just be prepared

01:35:12   for that when you look straight down you will see the dirt below you you will not see anything but

01:35:17   you will see your flickery poorly masked arms and hands it's kind of fun another very useful benefit

01:35:24   of that kind of like partial environment view as you were saying like the oval in front of you is

01:35:29   environment that's very useful if for instance uh there you're in a place physically where whatever

01:35:36   is immediately in front of you might be distracting or prevent windows from showing up correctly so if

01:35:41   you're trying to get work done with some windows in the space and there's say an airline seat

01:35:46   directly in front of your face or some or maybe a very distracting or busy background you will often

01:35:52   want to dial that in partially just to have something that you can like a solid or solid-ish

01:35:58   background that you can you can do work against so that's it's also very useful for that so anyway

01:36:01   love the environments please expand the environments oh speaking of airline seat

01:36:06   remember our question from back then it's like well what are you going to do with an airline

01:36:09   seat when the airline seat is two inches from your nose but you want the movie screen to be

01:36:12   10 feet away from you the answer in vision pro is they just draw 10 feet away from you

01:36:16   and you would think that the the sort of disconnect of like but that's impossible or whatever

01:36:21   uh it does look weird sometimes but usually because they dim the background so much and

01:36:27   because the vision pro content is so much more compelling in hdr like i did it with the with the

01:36:32   semicircular thing the semicircular thing was three feet past the apple person who was sitting

01:36:36   next to me but it was drawing over them right it's like it's like a z uh a z index problem like in a

01:36:42   video game and it's like well wait a second if it's five feet past them how can it be drawing in

01:36:47   front of them and the answer is your your brain just eventually accepts it because you look at

01:36:51   the shiny bright pixels right if you look at the edge it doesn't make any sense but so you know the

01:36:56   answer to like if you're watching a movie on a seat back in front of you and the screen is going

01:37:01   to be two seats up it's just going to draw over the seats and it will look like you're looking

01:37:05   through the seats they're not even there and here's here's your window yeah i know and if you

01:37:08   look at the edge it'll be like this doesn't make any sense how is it cut off or whatever but like

01:37:11   because you know it's all fake and it's a screen it mostly works i don't know what else they could

01:37:16   do i didn't know what they were going to do i don't know if they were going to try like forbid

01:37:19   it or try to whatever the answer is they just draw over it like and it mostly works out so

01:37:24   let's talk productivity this is not going to be a productivity device for most people text input is

01:37:35   terrible and it will probably always be terrible i don't know if i agree about the productivity in

01:37:41   je in a broad sense but yes could not agree more it is infuriating how bad text entry is you're

01:37:50   talking about without a physical keyboard obviously yes and and you know and i think that is that is

01:37:55   fair because many times i mean look i have a physical keyboard i have a bluetooth keyboard

01:38:00   i bought just for this i don't always have it with me and and so and there's lots of times when like

01:38:06   you will need to enter text on the vision pro directly through some for for some reason whether

01:38:10   you don't have the keyboard or it's not right there or it's not working whatever text input is

01:38:14   very bad now some of this can be tweaked a little bit here and there but i think a lot of it is just

01:38:19   inherent to the physical realities of what you're doing so this is never going to be i think as good

01:38:26   of a text input platform as say a mac or even an ipad with a keyboard because what you don't

01:38:32   realize with text input it text input is not just typing it's also things like moving the cursor

01:38:38   selecting things moving text cut copy paste all that's you know all the different stuff that you

01:38:42   do with the text as you're working with it so combination of typing and all of that other stuff

01:38:48   and in the vision environment it is rough like that even with a keyboard a keyboard makes it

01:38:55   a lot better but it doesn't it still doesn't make it good because all the still all of that

01:38:59   manipulation stuff is still all pretty rough this is going to be a problem for a lot of people and

01:39:06   by the way i mentioned that uh you have arms and you have hands one thing you don't have is a

01:39:10   keyboard because it does not even attempt to mask it out so if you dial that environment in so it's

01:39:14   taking up where your keyboard would be you'll see your hands you won't see your keyboard yeah um

01:39:20   one other one other um kind of kind of inherent problem that i've had so far and i think some of

01:39:27   this will get better over time and some of it won't is that the eye tracking and gesture based system

01:39:35   in my experience and a number of viewers have mentioned this um it is not super reliable like

01:39:41   it works well enough in the sense that like most of the taps that you do and most of the places you

01:39:46   look with your eyes will be correct but there's a very huge difference between most and all and you

01:39:52   know when you are operating precise pc and mac input devices keyboards mice trackpads like

01:39:59   they're all pretty precise and they're all extremely reliable butterfly keyboard accepted

01:40:04   but you know we're past that era now thank god so part of the reason why the butterfly keyboard was

01:40:09   so infuriating was that even if it would make an error like you know 0.1 of the time it turns out

01:40:17   you type keys a lot and so that would add up and it would actually be very annoying or very you

01:40:22   know destructive to your workflow if you had even even that tiny of an error rate the vision pro is

01:40:28   is trying to read all these kind of real world squishy analog inputs that you're doing with your

01:40:35   hands and where you're looking with your eyes and trying to create a very reliable input method from

01:40:40   that and they've done a really good job with what they can do but the the physical reality of that

01:40:47   is that that's never going to be as precise and as reliable as the other input devices that we're

01:40:53   accustomed to in the pc world so i have found personally some of this i think is is habits that

01:41:00   i can improve as i learn to use the device better for instance john you mentioned this earlier that

01:41:05   like like when i look at an eye target in vision os i will look at it and i will begin to do the

01:41:11   tap gesture with my fingers and as i'm doing that i am moving my eyes to the next thing yeah yep and

01:41:17   then i click the wrong thing because by the time my fingers actually reach each other my eyes have

01:41:23   actually moved slightly over you know on the way to the next thing i'm doing you know i haven't

01:41:27   realized it because it's just like subconscious like i i think look click move you know and it

01:41:32   takes a while and you know everyone's reporting the same thing it takes a while for you to realize

01:41:36   as the user like wait no my eyes are the pointer and therefore i have to keep looking at this thing

01:41:42   until the tap is registered then i can move my eyes and that is very different from any other

01:41:49   computer device we've ever used so that that's that both slows me down and combined with the

01:41:55   squishy analog factors it increases my error rate so i'm frequently clicking the wrong thing

01:42:00   it's not just the fact that you have to keep looking at it like remember those heat map things

01:42:04   where they're like let's see where people looking on this web page so we can optimize it or whatever

01:42:08   one thing is that you'll realize that i realized when i was doing like menu selections it's not

01:42:13   just that i have to remember to keep looking at the thing one thing that apparently i do and i

01:42:16   imagine other people do is hey when a menu pops up with a bunch of different choices

01:42:20   even though i know the one i want is whatever i scan them all and even when i'm about to select

01:42:26   the one like i would see my selection going up down up down up and it's because i'm realized i'm

01:42:30   looking at what all the choices are as what if i was doing this on the mac the menu would come up

01:42:35   and what would happen is my cursor would make a b-line for the one that i want to click while my

01:42:40   eyes scanned all the other options especially if it's an app that i've never used right and

01:42:44   in vision pro that is not helpful because your selection in the menu of seven items is going top

01:42:51   bottom top bottom top bottom and you're like but no i just and it's like you don't realize that

01:42:54   your eyes essentially scan things to like you know let me especially again using an app for the first

01:43:00   time what are all the options while i'm going to now go into that menu and select whatever and i'm

01:43:05   going and i'm selecting but i'm also scanning them all and it's like conflict because you don't you

01:43:09   don't your eyes are for scanning but now your eyes are also for are also the pointer and they can't

01:43:15   be both at once along with a few other a few other like you know just physical and design

01:43:21   considerations that i think is the biggest hindrance to me so far whenever i've tried to do

01:43:25   productivity work with this whether it's just basic email or notes or even safari youtube like

01:43:30   all this other stuff there's so much stuff where i i'm kind of trying to bounce between different

01:43:35   windows or or do something in an app and that eye tracking mechanic gets in my way and creates a lot

01:43:42   of a lot of error so first of all i can i can strongly encourage developers out there as you

01:43:45   design for vision os undo please support undo it is very important because i think this is especially

01:43:54   as people are new to it i think it's it's gonna have pretty high error rates of input but you know

01:44:00   more generally with productivity tasks too so you know so you have pretty rough text input you have

01:44:06   kind of coarse grained and kind of not great reliability on pointer input that hurts it in

01:44:14   some areas what i think also hurts it is you know kind of accounting for that and accounting for the

01:44:19   space you're in the controls and the layouts and vision os for productivity apps everything has to

01:44:25   be very chunky and fairly low information density it feels a lot like i'm using apps on my apple tv

01:44:34   but with you know more more advanced input and larger screen space i wouldn't want to do certain

01:44:39   kinds of work this way what we're accustomed to in the pc and mac world is high resolution highly

01:44:46   precise highly reliable inputs and outputs and that's not what we have here we have a lot of

01:44:51   other advantages here but those aren't among them and so the design of the apps that we use has to

01:44:57   be totally different on vision os and there and there's different designs that feel and work better

01:45:03   or worse than others and what we are accustomed to with most productivity apps in the pc platforms is

01:45:08   again like very very dense things made for very precise you know mouse pointers and stuff and

01:45:13   that just doesn't work in vision os everything in vision os has to be very similar to like a very

01:45:19   blown up ipad design for instance one of the one of the questions i had early on with with like

01:45:25   all of our friends who got pressed down was i asked them all in june like hey how is scrolling

01:45:29   especially vertical scrolling because so much of app design in the modern world based on phones

01:45:34   is based on lots of vertical scrolling i i had suspected that it might be clumsy on vision pro

01:45:40   and now that i've been using vision pro i can tell you for sure it works but yeah it is clumsy you're

01:45:45   not going to want to like be browsing a social feed by vertical scrolling constantly on a vision

01:45:50   pro it's tedious and it's not nearly as nice or direct or reliable as doing it on a phone screen

01:45:56   yeah i mentioned that in my blog post which i wrote the blog post obviously before i'd ever

01:46:00   use visual and also before i'd read any reviews or seen any review videos and stuff and so i

01:46:06   i intentionally tempered what i said to not be too sensational or adamant but in my heart i knew

01:46:14   everything that morco was saying i'm like this is totally how it's going to be but i'm like hey you

01:46:18   haven't tried it don't don't come out and say it's definitely going to be this way you don't know

01:46:22   so if you look at what i wrote like in the last few paragraphs and the things that i say

01:46:26   i say them in a nice way but what i'm trying to say is like this is not going to be like flicking

01:46:33   i think it did they make the comparison flicking your thumb on your phone to scroll and i and i also

01:46:40   gave myself a hedge but i said this is also not going to be like 1984 and i grab my mouse and i

01:46:45   grab a menu right because the directness of that connection even though it's not direct you're on

01:46:51   a mouse the mouse is on a mouse pad and the cursor's on your screen it's sort of mechanically

01:46:56   close enough that within five minutes my eight-year-old mind i was grabbing the file menu

01:47:03   with my hand right and as i try to explain without going on too much in my old man mode grabbing

01:47:10   things with your hand is something we learn to do from birth because it's important to live our

01:47:15   lives and feed ourselves and navigate the world seeing something and grabbing it with your hand

01:47:20   we're all really good at that because we have to be because we have bodies and we live in a world

01:47:26   and to the extent a computer interface can take advantage of that it's awesome and it feels

01:47:31   efficient the phone even better we literally we see the thing we want we touch it with our stupid

01:47:36   meat fingers flick scrolling with your thumb on the phone just such a beautiful combination of

01:47:42   like of real spatial computing we already know how to do all that stuff with our hands they make the

01:47:48   images on the screen pretend like they have inertia and it makes sense to our little monkey brains

01:47:52   right and and it is just so satisfying and pinch scrolling in vision os is not that and same thing

01:48:00   with the resizing that you have to look like that you can't just grab the window we're real good at

01:48:05   reaching out and grabbing the corner of the window and yanking it but that's not how vision os works

01:48:09   it might someday but today it does not and so it it kind of reminds me of like very often when i

01:48:14   use my phone or my ipad if i have to do something complicated with my computer i feel like i'm using

01:48:18   my computer with mittens like i just need to get to my mac even if it's just like to get arrow keys

01:48:23   and to be able to you know just text manipulation and i gotta have three browser windows and i gotta

01:48:28   i have a file that i want to save this and i want to convert it to this and i want to put it into

01:48:31   this document and i want to put it in this folder in my website and like it's just so much easier to

01:48:35   do it on the mac because i feel like my hands are in there in the mac with like these high fidelity

01:48:40   interfaces of the keyboard and the mouse and you'd be like that's not direct manipulation you're

01:48:45   using a thing down there and your screen's up there it is so much more direct than the quote

01:48:48   unquote spatial computing of the vision pro because the vision pro does not ask us to manipulate

01:48:55   things with our hands the way we manipulate a keyboard and mouse now yeah you can use a

01:48:58   keyboard and mouse with vision pro and as i said in my article it could be that the full solution

01:49:03   is really hey this screen tech combined with plain old boring a keyboard and mouse but trying to use

01:49:09   the vision pro without a keyboard without a mouse without a pointer just using your fingers gesturing

01:49:14   in space where they where they never ask you to grab anything and by the way if you were to grab

01:49:18   it it wouldn't be there because it's not real unlike the mouse and keyboard which you can feel

01:49:22   it is so much less efficient less direct and less quote unquote spatial than moving a windows moving

01:49:30   windows around on your mac with a trackpad or mouse it doesn't mean that it's bad and the screen

01:49:35   obviously as i said in the post and the vision pro can do things that the mac absolutely cannot

01:49:42   but being really efficient for doing like text editing or moving files around or even just

01:49:48   resizing or moving windows which you know i love to do the vision pro has a long way to go there

01:49:54   it doesn't mean that it's bad or doomed or whatever but i do kind of feel like like your

01:49:59   impression marco of obviously use it way longer than i have and i'm glad to hear like that's what

01:50:03   i imagined it would be like if i had one of these in my house and had to use it for an hour i felt

01:50:06   like i would feel like what you just described and i mean i use it for 30 minutes again i don't want

01:50:11   to be come down too strongly on it i was mostly wowed by the visuals but like like if if trying

01:50:17   to trying to do stuff on my phone or my ipad it's like wearing mittens trying to do stuff in vision

01:50:22   pro is kind of like wearing a straight jacket or with one arm tied behind your back or maybe

01:50:26   sending messages to someone and asking them to do it wow like it's amazing that it works at all

01:50:32   but i cannot imagine trying to do any of my computer stuff in that environment that's before

01:50:37   even getting the stuff that you were talking about with with information density because again i

01:50:41   didn't have enough experience to know if that's like just apple's apps or if it's you know like

01:50:45   it's whatever but like even setting that aside just i don't feel like my hands are in there

01:50:50   doing stuff in the same way that i do on the and even on like the ipad and the phone like that's

01:50:56   as direct as you can get i see stuff like push my finger on it i move my finger like that becomes so

01:51:01   second nature and feel so efficient right up until we have to do anything involving text editing

01:51:04   but like the way you mentioned text setting i feel it like that on the software keyboards on the

01:51:10   phone and the ipad and i can actually touch those unlike the one in vision os which you can't

01:51:16   actually touch because it's not there and and on the you know on the the spatial design front too

01:51:21   you know everything optically as we've discussed both earlier this episode and also in previous

01:51:26   episodes it's all kind of optimized for that like 1.3 meters away from you focal distance

01:51:30   and the whole system is designed around that of course because if if you have a lot of stuff

01:51:34   that's much closer than that you do risk getting eye strain from vac again as we've discussed

01:51:40   so if you think about like you're using all of these apps at you know greater than arms distance

01:51:46   away and so the design of them is very big and chunky also and you are limited you know when

01:51:53   you're having things be that far away naturally and again if you put everything closer to you

01:51:59   you're also not only risking eye strain but like the displays aren't actually high high resolution

01:52:03   enough to make that look very good a lot of times anyway so you're going to be operating mostly like

01:52:07   at that distance things are going to be placed at that radius around you by default and you're

01:52:11   going to be operating mostly that distance well with the information density of the apps even if

01:52:17   you set them to their smallest setting of like like it's kind of like a display size setting for

01:52:21   how big content should be even at the smallest setting apps and windows are huge so while you

01:52:28   have the whole room around you and the whole space in front of you and everything to place them

01:52:34   you can't actually fit that much on screen or rather in your viewport you can't actually fit

01:52:38   that much without having to like turn your whole body around different parts of the room like if

01:52:43   you're just going to face generally forward and try to fill you know whatever like 90-ish degrees

01:52:47   that are ideal for you to be looking at you're not going to be able to fit that much on screen

01:52:52   and if if you make things smaller the distance that you that they are placed away from you

01:53:00   it will start to look too small and and you'll start to like you know have to squint to see things

01:53:04   so this is an environment that is not made for a lot of information dense and control dense apps

01:53:12   that's what productivity typically requires so i'm not saying that nobody will be able to get their

01:53:19   work done on this that's not true but i think as a general purpose work device this is not what most

01:53:25   people are going to want there's going to be certain fields certain types of productivity

01:53:30   where it's going to be amazing but that's not it's not going to be what most people consider

01:53:35   productivity work on computers that that's that's not great on this again and this is not to say

01:53:40   that there's no use for this there's tons of great uses as we've gone over and but i think apple

01:53:46   having focused on entertainment for this first generation of this product is very wise because

01:53:52   on the entertainment front it's excellent and on the productivity front it's really not if you want

01:53:57   a distraction-free writing environment where you just have one text editing window in front of you

01:54:01   like there's all those apps that did that on the mac like oh we'll we'll fade out all your other

01:54:04   windows or we'll hide them all or whatever like this it's perfect because what you can have is one

01:54:09   pretty big window directly in front of you and if you're just writing text and you want the

01:54:14   distraction of your environment you want to be on the moon and you just have what your text editing

01:54:17   window and you have a physical keyboard you're off to the races that is your productivity

01:54:21   environment but when marcus's productivity is like what if you're like doing something on the atp cms

01:54:26   and you're editing html and bb edit and you've got a web browser window open to preview and you're

01:54:30   making images in photoshop and then you're saving them and then you're putting them in the folder

01:54:33   and then copying them into the git directory and making directories for the file and then you're

01:54:37   going back and reloading and then you've got docker running right like that's too much not even it is

01:54:44   doesn't even have to be that complicated even just like if you're gonna have like four apps open where

01:54:49   you're like moving data between them like even if it's just as simple as like you know notes email

01:54:54   photos and a web browser like that this is you know it doesn't have to be like a nerdy developer

01:54:58   workflow to run into problems here even regular like office work and email and stuff like that

01:55:04   you will you will hit these these issues and it's again it's not that you can't do it you'll feel

01:55:09   less efficient yeah and i think you will very quickly go back to doing it on a pc or even an

01:55:13   ipad like i think you'll find that a lot better you'll feel less efficient you'll be turning your

01:55:17   head and or rotating your seat much more than you thought you might and it will like it's it's again

01:55:22   it's why i'll do a certain amount of things on my ipad and my phone but at a certain point i get

01:55:26   frustrated and i just get up and leave the room and get off my butt leave the room and then walk

01:55:31   to my mac and then it's like it's just it's like it's like flying again and you may be saying oh

01:55:36   it's because you're old and you're used to the computer or whatever it's that's not it like this

01:55:39   is what i tried to get in the spatial computing force like there is uh the efficiency of humans

01:55:45   doing things increases uh to the degree that we can leverage abilities that we have essentially

01:55:50   innately like the ability to find things with their hands and feel them and move them around

01:55:55   and the farther we get from that the more sort of like remote we are from that the more we feel like

01:56:00   we're steering a thing that's steering a thing that's moving a thing uh the less efficient it

01:56:04   feels because then some part of our brain is is being is working on that part of it whereas when

01:56:09   you know when you're using your phone which is the newer device to you know to so that it's not just

01:56:14   because i'm old and used to max the phone is the newer device and yet flick scrolling how many

01:56:19   people have you had to teach to flick scroll people pick that up faster than they pick up like

01:56:24   breastfeeding like it's just like it's just it's you know that was referencing a thing of like

01:56:29   intuitive interfaces from like toggzzini interfaces whatever like a toggzzini always get his name wrong

01:56:34   um the interface had to be intuitive and the idea is like they don't have to be taught you just

01:56:39   innately know how to do them and the the counter saying to that back in the 80s was

01:56:43   the only thing that's intuitive is the nipple like what thing do you not need to be taught

01:56:47   you don't need to teach a baby to breastfeed which is not really true if you've ever had a baby but

01:56:51   anyway uh that was the idea nothing can ever be intuitive as in you're already born knowing it

01:56:55   but uh our genes are nicely designed to uh let us learn to manipulate the world around us with

01:57:05   our hands eventually when we stop being useless little babies um and that's because the ones that

01:57:10   did that less well didn't pass on their genes right so we're all here in the 3d world with

01:57:14   our meat bodies and grabbing seeing things with our hands and grabbing them and manipulating them

01:57:20   is something that we do not need to uh spend much mental energy on once we reach a certain age

01:57:28   and almost everything in vision pro is not like that one thing that is like that is looking around

01:57:33   in wonder at the amazing things we're seeing we're great at that uh but doing the gesture to scroll

01:57:39   with the little pinchy thing so far from flicks scrolling through twitter with your thumb so far

01:57:44   from that yeah um so you know kind of building off the productivity um limitations and trade-offs

01:57:51   here with you know you know sizing and density and everything it leads me into max screen sharing

01:57:58   this is the feature where you can project a max screen into vision pro give it a large screen make

01:58:04   it you know 10 feet wide or whatever well you know whatever you want to do with it um this is

01:58:08   i know this is an area that a lot of people thought and hoped that that would revolutionize their life

01:58:13   and i think it's kind of getting mixed reviews and i think there's good reason for that um

01:58:18   in my experience i i did this for a few hours the other day trying to just get get some work done on

01:58:24   my mac uh in this mode where i'm in the vision pro looking at a large screen that is that is being

01:58:30   projected from my laptop because i was some i was away from my main office so like this is perfect

01:58:33   i can like i'm staying at this house for a little while i'm like this is great i can just have my

01:58:38   laptop and not bring my xdr because it would be you know large and cumbersome to do that and i

01:58:44   can just have my laptop and i'll use a screen the vision pro perfect i'm not going to be doing this

01:58:49   very frequently uh it's just too blurry everything is blurry everything and part of this i think a

01:58:58   big part of this is as we were saying uh last episode that you know they're they're rendering

01:59:03   the max screen down to a lower resolution to send it over the wire or over the wireless

01:59:09   to be displayed so you have you have some loss right there where you know whatever the the you

01:59:16   know the high res max screen that i have on my macbook pro that's being sent at it's gonna be

01:59:21   it's being rendered at a higher resolution virtually then shrunk down to the 4k display

01:59:26   stream to be sent to be displayed inside a virtual window on a device that is simulating this window

01:59:34   being shown but showing it to your eyeballs with around 4k of pixels each so there's a lot of

01:59:40   scaling and reduction of detail going on in this in this process in this pipeline and i have found

01:59:47   that at the default setting of the of basically the simulated 5k amount of space it's really

01:59:53   pretty bad if you if you push it one resolution step down which gives you basically 1080p at 2x

02:00:00   that is better it just makes everything larger and that fixes one big problem in the sense that

02:00:08   you can then push it further from you virtually you can push it back to the ideal distance of

02:00:16   1.3 meters because when i did it for a couple hours the other day i had the regular default

02:00:22   5k resolution and i positioned it closer to me the way i would position a screen that size

02:00:27   and i got massive eye strain from doing that for a couple hours i felt awful my eyes were exhausted

02:00:35   i think this was me experiencing vac i put it too close that for the focal distance thing this is

02:00:42   vac now i get it okay so what i have found is that if i'm going through the mac monitor the right way

02:00:50   to do it is to put it at or to leave it at that 1.3 meter default distance and to have it be you

02:00:58   know larger in the vision pro like scale the window up so it's large so that the detail works

02:01:04   at that distance and also have it set at the simulated 1920 resolution which is the one step

02:01:10   down from default and what this results in is a still kind of blurry fine performing window that

02:01:18   is not that much higher resolution than the screen in my 16x macbook pro it's only like a couple

02:01:23   hundred pixels more what i ended up creating was a very complicated limited still blurry setup

02:01:32   that is only marginally better than my laptop's built-in display in in screen space and so to me

02:01:37   that is just not worth it it it was there's too many downsides there's too many gotchas there's

02:01:42   too many what-ifs and also the reality is having having carried both the vision pro and my 16x

02:01:50   laptop in the same backpack it's heavy like this this it would have to be really great to have that

02:01:57   be worth it and for me this is just it's just not worth it i hope in the future if the vision pro

02:02:04   gets much higher resolution screens down the road which i assume it will eventually i mean it might

02:02:09   be a while but if the vision pro can like you know get you know the the 2x version of what it has now

02:02:16   you know basically 8k screens in each eye or whatever whatever that would be i think there

02:02:20   might be enough resolution at that point to make the mac pass through like really good for my

02:02:26   standards but the way it is now it is just a very very cumbersome way to get a very blurry screen of

02:02:31   your macbook pro and it's just not worth it to me and it's not just the fact that it might be blurry

02:02:36   it's like the the dream of having a big monitor whether in real life or a virtual one is that you

02:02:41   can see more stuff like that it is higher resolution like the xdr isn't just the same

02:02:45   resolution as the studio display but bigger it has more pixels and that means we can see more stuff

02:02:50   right and in the mac retina world is whatever the standard ppi is 200 and change or whatever

02:02:55   uh adding more stuff it adds more information but what you're forced to do is take this virtual 4k

02:03:01   window and make it no more information dense possibly less information dense than your actual

02:03:07   laptop screen and at that point the size of the window no longer really matters except for

02:03:12   ergonomics of maybe not having your head looking down at a laptop having a look across you're not

02:03:16   getting the benefit that we want of like i can have a really big screen because when we say that

02:03:20   with a mac like i have a really big screen it's like now i can have more windows and you say that

02:03:24   because you've got more pixels but you're not getting more pixels no matter how big you make

02:03:27   that window it's 2x a 1080 screen and you're not you're not getting any more information so the

02:03:33   dream of having a big monitor is not being realized and at that point like you said you

02:03:38   could just look at your laptop screen which is going to be sharper it's maybe again maybe

02:03:42   ergonomically less good because you know sort of looking down at your laptop that's attached to the

02:03:47   keyboard is a one of the many reasons the laptops are bad uh but and in vision pro like you know you

02:03:52   separate that the keyboard is down here by your hand and the laptop is ergonomically directly in

02:03:56   front of you and that may be better but it's not like what people want out of the experience is

02:04:01   like i can't have a big mac monitor with me all the time but i can have this and this is a big

02:04:05   mac monitor and no it's not a big mac monitor it's a mac monitor it's not that big and you know

02:04:10   currently uh those of us outside apple can only have one of them supposedly internally that they

02:04:15   have a thing that can show two mac screens which would i think help a little bit because then having

02:04:19   two 1080 screens that's definitely something you don't have with a laptop i can't with you but

02:04:23   honestly i don't know how much that would help in my because like to avoid the my what i think is my

02:04:28   vac problem i would i have to make the screen so big because it's it's like simulated further away

02:04:34   it's far away that like i don't even know if i would necessarily have a lot of comfortable room

02:04:38   to have two of them in my field of view at once like because it it the way it feels comfortable

02:04:43   to avoid vac it almost feels like you are using your computer on a large tv like if you ever like

02:04:48   you know wired with hdmi to a big tv it feels a lot like that uh and so i i don't i don't know

02:04:55   that would solve my problem i mean i i don't know how people use dual monitors all the time anyway

02:04:58   is i don't like the head turning which is why i like the one big monitor but yeah i would imagine

02:05:02   you have to turn your head and at least because again that is another advantage that the vision

02:05:05   pro has that a laptop doesn't or is that you don't have to take a physical space with it so if you do

02:05:09   have two monitors you can have one over there and one over here and you just turn or swivel your seat

02:05:14   and now you've got double the information both equally dense which is better than just one again

02:05:19   you can't even do that now although like the rumor is inside apple you can do it but someday we might

02:05:23   be able to but yeah i think the solution to this is probably eventually going to be resolution i

02:05:28   suppose so but we're not quite there yet all right so that's actually a really good time for me to

02:05:32   jump in because i have thoughts about mac virtual display and just generally thoughts about the

02:05:37   device um i am not going to say that anything you've said is wrong or incorrect particularly

02:05:44   for you and you know the way your eyes work and so on so comma um comma i f***ing love

02:05:51   mac virtual display i have admittedly used it very briefly i have not had a two-hour session with it

02:05:57   so consider your source here it has been very brief sessions here and there but it has been

02:06:04   incredible i think some of the difference and some of the reason i'm so excited about this is because

02:06:09   i willingly chose a 14-inch laptop i don't have a 16-inch laptop so i have considerably i think it's

02:06:14   considerably less screen real estate than you do additionally i just happen to be traveling which

02:06:19   is not too dissimilar from what you're working with with your you know temporary housing and all

02:06:24   that but i was in a hotel room you know how often it is i have a nice 4k display in a hotel room

02:06:29   friggin never literally never so i thought it was tremendous i i loved that i could make the screen

02:06:39   hilariously large yes that does mean i need to move my neck and move me or you know twist my

02:06:44   head and move my and move my head around in order to see everything don't care it was all gigantic

02:06:50   so no matter how bad my eyes are and that's not i really don't think that i had problem with

02:06:56   crispness in terms of the device i think it's just because i need things to be a little bit bigger

02:07:01   because i'm old and because i have terrible eyes um and so anyways i could have a gigantic a

02:07:07   physically gigantic 4k resolution screen right in front of me and then i can put the vision os slack

02:07:14   on one side of it this is what my blog post was about you know right before it came out i can put

02:07:18   messages on the other side i can put safari above or you know or to the to the further to the side

02:07:23   i can put a freaking video i can watch yo wakanda forever i keep picking on that because that's when

02:07:27   i watch it i can watch wakanda forever off in the corner whatever man i've got infinite canvas baby

02:07:32   i can put whatever wherever and it is great the other thing is holy flipping crap how does

02:07:42   universal control work as well as it does it is not perfect but it is astonishing how good a job

02:07:49   it does because what you're doing a universal control means you can use your max keyboard and

02:07:55   your max mouse to control things even within vision os just like you can with an ipad right

02:08:02   doing that with the keyboard is not that remarkable like whatever that that stands to reason if you're

02:08:08   looking at a text field and you start typing okay put the word put the letters in there fine however

02:08:12   the pointer is so good and the thing that's good about it like of course it's just a mouse pointer

02:08:19   like it looks like an ipad pointer within one window you look at another window there's the

02:08:23   pointer sometimes usually you can go between windows i don't know it's in 3d space i don't

02:08:30   know how i guess i am looking i guess and maybe that's what it's doing and i'm attributing to

02:08:34   magic what's really just my own gaze but it feels like freaking magic it is so good and that's

02:08:40   extremely important because what you were saying a little while ago about needing considerably less

02:08:45   information density i think in terms of visual not acuity but in order to see things for me

02:08:53   i don't think i necessarily need less information density in order to see and read and whatnot

02:08:57   where the information density becomes a problem is when you have a lot of controls that are not

02:09:03   spaced out very well the perfect example of this for me is basically any any ipad app that's running

02:09:10   on the vision os in particular things like slack so if you think of slack and i don't as much as

02:09:16   i love to slag on slack i don't think this is really a slack being garbage issue i think it's

02:09:22   just that it's a hard problem and slack has not been designed specifically for vision os

02:09:26   but if you're trying to choose between like the the icon of the slack you're on all the way in

02:09:30   the upper left or the home dms activity i'm looking at the mac version but i think it's the same on

02:09:35   ios or uh vision os in order to get my eyes to correctly focus the one i want it's like john was

02:09:44   saying way earlier i need to like look harder or look past where i think i need to look and i think

02:09:48   it's because all of these different buttons are just too close together there's just not enough

02:09:52   space between them and even though the eye tracking is astonishingly good at least i mean

02:09:57   i have nothing compared to you but it is astonishingly good but still i think there

02:10:01   needs to be more or less density more space between these different controls but if you

02:10:06   have a mouse you can mash that bad boy right on the icon you want because it's a little blob

02:10:11   hovering right over the icon you care about and so i freaking love it i was on the train

02:10:16   coming back from new york and i had wakanda forever over to the side i had my screen my

02:10:23   max screen in front of me i was balancing our checkbook because it just so happened that our

02:10:27   you know statement came in well first of all i'm doing that in complete and utter privacy because

02:10:31   my max screen is black second of all i now have considerably more real estate so i can put my

02:10:36   little it's not quick in it what is it called uh banktivity who i think sponsored way way back when

02:10:41   but i've been using the app uh before that i have banktivity on one side of my screen i have the

02:10:45   pdf of our statement on the other side of the screen and i don't need to be showing anyone how

02:10:50   rich or poor we are you know nobody's looking over my shoulder at my credit card statement or

02:10:55   checking statement whatever i can do all this in a big huge window that's kind of in the seat back

02:11:01   in front of me which is a little weird um i could do that all right there i have i have a 4k an lg

02:11:08   ultra fine 4k on the train that is amazing i cannot wait to be that freaking loser that's

02:11:17   using this library or wagmans or whatever i don't know if i have the gumption to do it yet i was

02:11:22   thinking maybe i would like rent a little meeting room and i would be the only or uh you know reserve

02:11:26   a little meeting room at the library and i will be the only one in there and maybe i'll face the wall

02:11:30   so it's not too obvious but it would be so amazing to have this at the library i'm so excited for it

02:11:37   i am so pleased with how mac virtual display and universal control work together it is amazing and

02:11:44   it blows my mind again my eyes are different i haven't used it for two plus hours straight

02:11:51   maybe if i did i would change my tune but from what i know today it's amazing and i love it

02:11:57   one thing to note about you saying how you like set up like oh here's my mac screen in front of

02:12:00   me and then here's the vision os version of slack to my left and here's the wakanda forever movie

02:12:04   over here um this is one area where we'll definitely benefit from advancements here

02:12:10   the field of view like i said before when i was talking about the specs is only 100 degrees and so

02:12:15   when you were saying oh look i can have all these things you have this here this left and right right

02:12:19   are um yeah you have to end up turning your head to see those oh yeah on a big on a big mac monitor

02:12:25   those can all be in front of you and why is that because our eyeballs have better than 100 degree

02:12:29   field of view like that's fair like there's lots of people on youtube trying to show the reviews

02:12:33   like oh it looks like you're looking through goggles like you don't notice it that much

02:12:36   but the the field of view is limited right it's limited because the size of the screens like

02:12:40   they're they're they're not four by three ratio if you see the screens when they yanked out of it

02:12:44   and i fixed it they're almost kind of square right they're not 16 by 9 they're not wider you know

02:12:49   they're a little bit wider than they are at all right and they they combine to give you a field

02:12:53   of view that is narrower than you expect so you will end up having to turn your head more and it's

02:12:58   in this case assuming the information density is all right it's not because like uh there's not

02:13:03   enough like it's because your vision is narrowed it's like you know if pretend there's nothing in

02:13:07   the headset you rip everything out of the headset but you still put it on your head it's not exactly

02:13:12   like that but it's pretty close like your field of view is narrowed and that makes you have to

02:13:17   turn your head and that makes you have to use the ability to put things in space around you

02:13:22   that combined with the resolution things that mark was complaining about mean that

02:13:25   what you could get away with having all on one screen in front of you even a 4k screen all in

02:13:29   one mac 4k screen in just native vision os apps you might have to arrange a raid out uh alongside

02:13:36   you and have to end up turning your head because of the field of view although that brings up one

02:13:39   more point that i've already heard people complaining about it i haven't heard either

02:13:41   one of you mentioned probably because you don't work like me but um you can layer windows in

02:13:46   vision os you can put one in front of another oh you don't want to you don't want to though

02:13:50   but you probably don't want to because as i noted it does not feel like your hands are in there

02:13:55   like they are on the mac or at least it feels like that for me like on the mac to bring a window to

02:13:59   the front you there are caveats and asterisks on this but you can click on places in the window and

02:14:05   the window will come to the front in vision os as far as i know i didn't get to test this uh you

02:14:11   can't just look at a part of the window and tap your fingers and it comes to the front is that

02:14:15   right um i don't know if that's right but i i so i have ended up with layered windows here and there

02:14:21   and it is cumbersome at best it is not something i recommend like think think of vision os as

02:14:28   you're inside of a sphere and you can put you can stick things on wherever you want along the sphere

02:14:34   but you don't want to ever have things overlap each other it's it's terrible it's kind of weird

02:14:38   though because like i wrote about this in my thing like you know there's there's uh uh the mac has

02:14:43   overlapping windows right but and they have they have always since the beginning had some kind of

02:14:48   like little drawn shadow to like make it look like one is in front of the other but if you were to

02:14:52   like take the world of the mac and like rotate it sideways and look what i think the both the visual

02:14:58   and mental model we all have is that those windows are pretty close together like the total depth of

02:15:02   like having three windows is not one foot between each of the windows they're like they're within

02:15:06   millimeters of each other they're stacked on top of each other more like pieces of paper would be

02:15:10   on a desk imagine that desktop metaphor right so yes their magic pieces of paper where if you tap

02:15:15   one of the one that's behind suddenly that piece of paper jumps in front of the other one but they

02:15:19   could be literally touching despite the huge deep drop shadows that mac os draws them right where in

02:15:24   vision os you don't have to imagine it's literally a 3d space and you could probably take a ruler in

02:15:29   the virtual world and measure the distance between them but it's so weird that like i mean some of us

02:15:34   certainly me are comfortable having tons of overlapping essentially pieces of paper on our

02:15:39   mac screens but when you have four of them and vision os and they're one of them is in front

02:15:44   of the other ones is like oh no i can't figure out how to deal with it and i think part of it

02:15:47   is because you don't feel like you can reach in there and manipulate them like you could papers

02:15:50   on a desk and like we all do windows on a screen but i think the other part is just the window

02:15:54   management controls are meant to keep you at a distance right you have to look you have to

02:16:00   activate them that's the only way for the move things there's no real title bars to speak of

02:16:05   or like you know window control widgets are differently arranged like it's not it's not set

02:16:10   up to like the the whole mac all of the mac interfaces like look the window chrome we've got

02:16:15   window control widgets we've got a title bar we used to have scroll bars back in the day

02:16:18   that is the window frame there used to be an actual little window frame before they got rid

02:16:22   of that in mac os 10 and then all your content is inside it and those frames we have ways to

02:16:26   manipulate them you can grab them you can move them around you can use utilities and like vision

02:16:31   os is like you're not going to be doing a lot of that you can you can grab the bar on the bottom

02:16:36   and you can move them you can grab the little thing in the corner and move them around but it

02:16:40   just seems like it's not it's not made to make it really easy for you to shuffle those papers around

02:16:46   and i think also a huge limitation there is just the precision of the eye tracking you know the

02:16:51   the design of the system apps is pretty good to kind of help conceal how coarse-grained i think

02:16:58   it actually is went to you know you don't have super fine pointer accuracy with the eye tracking

02:17:04   a lot of the mechanics of operating overlapping and stacked windows requires you to like oh let

02:17:11   me get this pointer between these two and get you know grab this edge of this one yeah just snag the

02:17:15   corner of a window yeah and that's i think in vision os things have to be larger and more

02:17:21   you know more chunky than that and so that's one of the reasons that doesn't really work i think

02:17:25   it's like the ios keyboard where it's it it's trying to like average like well where do we

02:17:30   think like i know where you did tap right but where do we think and and if it has to make that

02:17:34   choice and you're trying to snag the corner of some window that's poking out from behind another

02:17:38   one the right bet is you were actually trying to look at the upper right corner of the front most

02:17:42   window not oh what he was actually trying to do was was snag that little piece of the window that's

02:17:48   poking out i snag pieces of windows that are poking out all the time that's how i use my

02:17:51   mac all the time but like that's if you were to guess like if you just had an average probability

02:17:56   cloud based on where you're looking which i imagine if there was like a debug mode you could

02:17:59   see like the actual like giant point cloud of where your eyeballs are racing all over the place

02:18:05   and it has to average them together and kind of guess like the ios keyboard yeah but what did they

02:18:09   mean to look at it's always going to guess the top right corner of the front most window it is never

02:18:14   going to guess the two pixels of the window that's behind it no the mac virtual display stuff was

02:18:19   great i really really like the idea of spatial computing maybe it's a gimmick and maybe i'll

02:18:26   get over it quickly but again on the train and i think in the post show we're going to briefly

02:18:31   talk about my train experience because there's a couple funny things that happen but um but in on

02:18:36   the train at one point i was watching the movie and to my right hand side i put you know apple

02:18:42   maps watching myself you know come down the east coast so i could see where i was off to the left

02:18:48   i had messages just so i could see you know if anyone was trying to send me a text or whatever

02:18:51   the case may be and it was amazing yes i do have to turn my head a bit that doesn't seem to bother

02:18:56   me as much as i guess it bothers you john but it was amazing and i was doing this privately i was

02:19:02   doing this in in a tube that was not in the air but that was hurtling down the eastern seaboard

02:19:07   at like you know anywhere between 20 and 120 miles an hour like this the technology is amazing and i

02:19:12   can't believe that i can do this and broadly i i think we've mostly covered all of the the kind of

02:19:21   different aspects of the vision pro um the spatial videos are very cool i will be taking them more

02:19:28   frequently i don't think it's going to be like john had said quite a bit earlier on i'm not going

02:19:31   to do every video that way but having some moments like that are really cool i am a sucker for the

02:19:36   panoramas i do not argue that they need a lot more fidelity but nevertheless i am a sucker for them i

02:19:41   think they're really neat um the 3d movies in the sense of like disney plus 3d movies i think i said

02:19:47   earlier you know you get a 3d viewport that's neat i would probably choose a 3d movie for the vision

02:19:53   pro if i had the choice but if i didn't you know i'm not going to miss it um i agree with what

02:19:59   marco was saying about the environments they are extremely cool i wish i purposely didn't use them

02:20:06   on the train because i wanted to see if people were you know staring at me and we'll talk about

02:20:10   whether or not they were um later on but i i briefly turned it on toward the end of the

02:20:15   journey when i knew i was about to take the whole vision pro off and suddenly you are somewhere else

02:20:20   and it is truly incredible and like john had said earlier take all my money national geographic

02:20:26   apple i don't care who you are take all my money give me all the environments take all my money

02:20:29   because i don't need to go on a graycation if i can just go to mount hood or you know shendon doe

02:20:34   national park or whatever the case may be take all my money please and thank you well not that

02:20:38   you haven't already but take more of all of my very good things yeah they're very efficient

02:20:43   consumable we would all pay five dollars for one of these even just like i don't even know if it's

02:20:47   local five bucks take it like it's like paying five dollars to go to a place and you're like

02:20:51   well what if you go there and it's boring it was only five dollars like it is that is a money-making

02:20:55   machine if you can produce compelling ones of these and let alone when eventually someone makes

02:20:59   a game of that fidelity that you're in in the headset that's more difficult because the beautiful

02:21:03   thing about the environments is you're sitting still which is ideal once things start moving

02:21:08   around and you know there's anyone who's played uh vr games knows the difficulty of the virtual

02:21:14   world coming in conflict with your physical world and you walking into walls or hitting your coffee

02:21:19   table and stuff like that but sitting still in the middle of one of these places is like the platonic

02:21:23   ideal of like look you're in the sweet spot sell me these things for five dollars make a million

02:21:28   bucks yep uh so all in all i don't think it's for me to make a judgment statement about whether or

02:21:35   not this thing was worth thirty five hundred dollars sitting here now and ask me again in a

02:21:41   month and they ask me again again in a year but sitting here now is this a necessary purchase for

02:21:47   me leaving aside that i i needed i feel like i needed one for this very moment of talking about

02:21:52   it is it a necessary purchase no what i did i do i really want to spend 35 plus hundred dollars on

02:21:59   it no not really but it is so cool and you know how lucky are we to be alive right now that this

02:22:08   is what's being released and we and yeah everyone keeps saying and i think half jokingly half

02:22:12   seriously this is the worst of the vision pro will ever be and that's true but it is freaking cool

02:22:18   and it is freaking amazing and i am so thankful and lucky that we get to experience this not you

02:22:26   know we broadly we the three of us i'm so thankful for it and so lucky that this is what's going on

02:22:32   and i don't think this is going to become the accidental vision pro podcast but we're probably

02:22:37   gonna have to season of it for the next few weeks because oh my word there's so much to say there's

02:22:42   so much to capture there's so much to process there's just so much here and i'm so excited

02:22:46   you put it very well because like there's so much on this platform like we we still haven't talked

02:22:50   really that much about pretty large areas of it like we had i i still haven't really tried any

02:22:56   games there's not that many to start with but you know i still haven't tried any games i still

02:23:00   haven't watched an entire movie we didn't even talk i didn't talk too much about like you know

02:23:04   photo and video consumption and stuff like that like there's still so much to talk about here

02:23:09   personas oh you're right that oh gosh you're right yeah that entire thing like there's so we're

02:23:14   going to be covering this over a few weeks we're obviously running a little long tonight but this

02:23:17   is going to be a process that we cover over a few weeks but and or probably months more likely but

02:23:23   and and i don't want to have to end on a negative note that you know because i said the productivity

02:23:28   angle wasn't very good because whenever something new comes out you know we try to wedge it into

02:23:33   what we already know when and i've i've i've ranted about this before i'm gonna do it again

02:23:37   because it's important when the ipad came out everyone said we're gonna stop buying computers

02:23:44   this will replace them for some people it might have for most people it didn't

02:23:47   and that's fine now we have another thing when the watch came out so many nerds were like oh my god

02:23:53   this phone i have right now might be the last phone i ever buy because i'm just gonna

02:23:58   do everything on my watch and then it turned out no we all still have phones but you know we now

02:24:04   some of us also have watches and that's what this is when when this was you know announced but not

02:24:11   yet out and we were all trying to make plans of how we're gonna rationalize purchasing this device

02:24:16   by saying you know we're gonna get all of our work done on this we're never gonna have to buy a big

02:24:20   mac again or whatever i think that's wrong but that doesn't mean it's a failure it just means

02:24:26   it's for other things mostly there are some people who do all their work on ipads and don't buy

02:24:31   laptops anymore but most people who need laptop style work still buy laptops to do it there are

02:24:38   people who are going to be able to do all their productivity work with the vision pro but i think

02:24:43   most people with productivity work are going to choose to do on other other things instead

02:24:45   but the vision pro can do a whole lot of stuff really really well in different areas that i think

02:24:53   is extremely exciting again even if i could just be transported to those environments and just sit

02:24:59   for a few minutes that's amazing it's like the ipad like we're saying like oh the ipad has to

02:25:04   be better at some things and one of the things the ipad is better it's like oh sitting on your

02:25:07   couch and casually scrolling the web you could do that on the laptop but the ipad does that job in

02:25:11   a more pleasing way the vision pro is exactly like that a lot of things that you can do but on a

02:25:16   vision pro and on a mac and on an ipad some of those the vision pro does them the best right and

02:25:21   i would argue looking at 3d video clear winner like the other ones can't do it at all so thumbs

02:25:27   up right and i had a tv that used to be able to do and it sucked so right it's like you're there's

02:25:32   a competition among all the devices in your life of like yeah i can do this here i can do this here

02:25:37   or i can do this here but which one makes me want to do it on it and you know that you know the ipad

02:25:42   is perfect a perfect example of like aren't you doing things that you could also do in your phone

02:25:46   and that you could also do in your mac why are you choosing to do them on the ipad you're like well

02:25:49   the ipad screen is bigger than my phone but it doesn't have a keyboard attached and i can sit

02:25:53   on the couch to do it and it feels more comfortable and it's like all these nuanced reasons but that

02:25:57   you find yourself like what do you choose to use your ipad for versus what you use your phone for

02:26:02   which is what you use computer for people will naturally gravitate to wherever they are most

02:26:07   comfortable doing that thing and that's just with a bunch of rectangles that are screens that are

02:26:12   different sizes they're not even that different from each other this is so different that the

02:26:16   things that it does well and there are things that it does well it basically has no competition

02:26:21   there is no other thing that you own unless you own other vr headsets that can do this stuff at

02:26:26   all so i feel like the place in the ecosystem for devices like this like it's well carved out the

02:26:33   fact that the ipad could find a place when there was a rectangle that was slightly smaller that

02:26:37   did all the same things is a testament to how easy it will be for this thing to find a place

02:26:40   in people's lives once it doesn't cost 3 500 and weigh a ton yeah all right thanks to our sponsors

02:26:46   this week squarespace and trade coffee and thanks to our members who support us directly you can

02:26:52   join us at atp.fm slash join and we will talk to you next week now the show is over they didn't

02:27:03   even mean to begin because it was accidental it was accidental john didn't do any research

02:27:12   marco and casey wouldn't let him because it was accidental it was accidental and you can find the

02:27:22   show notes at atp.fm and if you're into twitter you can follow them at c a s e y l i s s so that's

02:27:35   casey lis m a r c o a r m anti-marco armen s i r a c u s a syracuse it's accidental

02:27:48   they didn't mean to accidental

02:27:53   tech podcast so long i gotta hear a train story what was it like using this on a train with people

02:28:04   who could maybe see you so on the way up uh you know i was in business class as we discussed in

02:28:10   the bootleg and may or may not have discussed in the release version of the show and there were not

02:28:15   a ton of well there weren't a lot of people on the train anyway but there weren't a ton of people

02:28:19   and my understanding before i went on the journey was that it is the the travel mode or whatever i

02:28:26   don't forget exactly what it's officially called it's okay so travel mode is it wasn't clearly

02:28:32   stated as far as i could tell until in the last couple of days or maybe i just discovered it in

02:28:37   the last couple of days but it is not really travel mode it's plane mode it's called travel

02:28:43   mode to john's point but it's actually plane mode because we already have something called airplane

02:28:47   mode exactly yeah yeah exactly right and so i talked to a couple of people on the inside who

02:28:52   indicated to me yeah it might work on the train but probably not and so i tried it initially

02:29:02   on the way from richmond to dc and that's relevant because of dc um you stopped for a while and i'll

02:29:08   explain why in a minute but i tried on the way to richmond from richmond to dc and you go into

02:29:13   control center and or maybe it's the thing no it is control center you go into control center

02:29:18   because there's like something before control center i don't know what they call that but then

02:29:21   there's control center off of it anyways you go into control center and i you know tapped on the

02:29:25   little airplane because i was turning on airplane mode i didn't realize until the return trip they

02:29:31   know you idiot that's the turn off all the radios mode i don't know what i was thinking i don't know

02:29:37   what i was thinking but you were you looking for travel mode or was it in your brain i'm looking

02:29:42   for plane mode i think it's because it was in my brain i was i knew that i didn't want to turn off

02:29:47   the radios i don't want the traditional definition of airplane mode but because i was you know just

02:29:52   convinced in tunnel visioning on airplanes i tapped or you know pinched on

02:30:00   airplane mode and i saw the radios turn off but i still just didn't think twice about it because

02:30:04   i'm a freaking idiot and so i put the thing on right you know i i was able to do that and it

02:30:10   was getting kind of upset that i forget exactly what the dialogue says but like tracking tracking

02:30:15   failed or something like that and things are not going well and then i you know put it i turn on

02:30:19   the airplane mode which again as i later realized was not what i wanted but at this point in the

02:30:24   story i don't realize that yet and sure enough like windows are bouncing all over the place i'm

02:30:30   to some degree bouncing all over the place like it is it's not great it's not great at all i think

02:30:34   i had the thing on my face for a minute and a half two minutes and i was like well that's that

02:30:38   well we get to dc and the way the trains work here is or down here in virginia is that in virginia

02:30:46   um the the commuter or not computer the the the the travel train the people train actually travels

02:30:54   on train tracks that are owned by the freight train company so um not only that but the freight

02:31:00   train company has no need for electric trains because to my limited understanding i don't know

02:31:05   if they would work as well if if i'm wrong it doesn't matter one way one way or another there's

02:31:10   a diesel locomotive pulling the Amtrak train south of washington dc and when you're in dc you stop

02:31:16   for like half an hour well they literally switch locomotives from diesel to electric i knew this

02:31:21   going into it i knew it before my trip to marco you know it's all fine it's no big deal well once

02:31:26   we get to dc we're stationary so i'm like hell yeah i'm gonna turn on you know a movie and i'd

02:31:31   start you know wakanda forever and we're there for 20 30 minutes and we go to take off and again i

02:31:38   think that i have travel mode on i don't but i think i do so we go to take off and i don't know

02:31:44   if you saw the casey nistat video well he was on the new york city subway and he was sitting you

02:31:48   know with his back to the outside of the car so the car is moving laterally from his perspective

02:31:54   and when he took off the the the screen just stayed behind you know he just went through

02:32:00   the center of the train of the subway car and stayed behind it's very funny to see i don't

02:32:05   know if he had travel mode on or not i really don't but when we took off immediately i went

02:32:12   through the screen because the screen was in front of me and the screen stayed still as i went

02:32:18   through the screen it was hilarious you could have turned around and looked at the back of it which

02:32:24   would have i guess been entirely white because they don't show the river it would have been

02:32:27   entirely white yeah but immediately i took the vision pro off and i was like well that's that

02:32:31   and i honestly i was really disappointed because i really wanted to be able to use this thing on

02:32:34   the train in no small part because i had six and a half hours to do something and it would have been

02:32:39   great to watch a movie or do whatever and outside of the time that they're switching locomotives

02:32:44   there's ac outlets right at the seat so i mean i have infinite battery power for all intents

02:32:49   and purposes i was really genuinely kind of bummed about it on the way back today i was doing the

02:32:55   same thing i'm like you know let me try it again just to see and i did this i forget when it was i

02:32:59   don't recall if i did it in dc or some sometime before but one way or another i decided i'm gonna

02:33:05   try it again and i look at control center i'm like wait what the hell is this like goggles with like

02:33:11   other like ray or like goggle uh ripples off of it and i tap that and it says oh travel mode enabled

02:33:18   son of a gun i screwed this up i didn't even realize so this whole time on the way up i

02:33:25   probably could have been using vision pro but i didn't and because i thought i couldn't because

02:33:30   it was janky as hell well the reason was janky as hell is because i'm an idiot so it was not

02:33:35   perfect you know things were dancing about a bit like john you had said early on in your review

02:33:39   that the home screen was just locked into place and i completely agree with you

02:33:44   if things were not locked into place as this train was jostling you know and rumbling down the track

02:33:50   and i don't think it was bad at all in fact it worked better than i thought but at that point i

02:33:55   realized well holy smokes i can use this thing for the remaining you know two to three hours of the

02:33:59   train ride or whatever the heck it was um and so i was very happy about that but i i really was bummed

02:34:05   and remain bummed that uh you know i couldn't use it the rest of time but to get back to your

02:34:10   question um i didn't i think one person walked by and gave me like a double take but other than that

02:34:16   nobody seemed to give a crap and i was very surprised because i expected everyone who walked by

02:34:22   was going to be like what is this idiot doing look at this guy with his fancy goggles wasn't he cool

02:34:29   nobody cared i don't think a lot of people noticed but nobody cared and i was very surprised by that

02:34:35   and actually made me feel a lot better about the idea of using it anywhere am i going to go to

02:34:40   wegmans where it's just like a cafeteria area and sit there and use it maybe eventually but not not

02:34:46   today and not tomorrow but i genuinely think the way i'm going to ease myself into this is

02:34:51   you know renting or i keep saying renting um reserving because it's free you know reserve a

02:34:56   room at the library and probably face the wall because i don't want to call that much attention

02:35:01   to myself but that's a way i can ease into it and i really think this will be a very powerful tool

02:35:05   for me to use anywhere other than home that i want to get work done and but it was a truly hilarious

02:35:12   moment watching the screen go through my body as we took off from dc northbound i i i couldn't help

02:35:20   but laugh when that happened it was very very funny all right john how long do you think it

02:35:24   takes casey to use it at wegmans i say one week yeah i mean so i'm of two minds i think he'll get

02:35:30   over the embarrassment quickly but i'm wondering if he will tire of its utility in the same way

02:35:35   that you kind of have for productivity tasks yeah so that's that's the conflict but yeah i think i

02:35:40   feel like you'll not a lot of people are going to have these for a while but like i i think

02:35:49   i i think as you said on the train fewer people care what you're doing than you think

02:35:54   right yeah like in general have nothing to do with vision pro just like whatever

02:35:59   (beeping)