569: Do Grasshoppers Have Tongues?


00:00:00   So a giant storm blew through here last night and so I was up all night dealing with it.

00:00:07   I'm very tired.

00:00:08   I will say, so a few systems I had in place ended up working very well.

00:00:13   One of those is I have solar panels and power wall batteries and they back up some of the

00:00:18   outlets and stuff in the house.

00:00:21   Critical stuff like the fridge and a couple of outlets, a couple of lights.

00:00:25   Not the whole HVAC system because we have way too much power for that, but it worked

00:00:30   perfectly.

00:00:31   We had a huge power outage for, well not huge by disaster standards.

00:00:36   It was like a four hour power outage and it worked perfectly fine.

00:00:41   I did learn, I don't know if this is a thing, I had all my Wi-Fi gear, of course that's

00:00:45   backed up because that's the most important thing.

00:00:48   It goes fridge and then all of the networking gear.

00:00:51   And I had a UPS on the networking gear as well.

00:00:55   The outlet that it plugs into is backed up by the solar battery thing, but I had a UPS

00:00:59   there just because I had an extra UPS and I was like, "I'll put it up there, give myself

00:01:02   a little more time if I need it."

00:01:03   And for whatever reason, when the AC power switches from the grid to the solar battery

00:01:10   back up, the UPS thinks there's been a power outage and doesn't take the power and switches

00:01:15   into like, "I'm off mode" and starts supplying power.

00:01:19   And the UPS eventually then ran out and died and turned off.

00:01:24   And even though there was power at the outlet, why?

00:01:28   What happened there?

00:01:29   Is it having something like fake grounding or something?

00:01:33   What could that be?

00:01:34   - It could be under-volted maybe?

00:01:35   - Oh, that's interesting.

00:01:36   Maybe if it only outputs like 100.

00:01:38   - The UPS is super sensitive to having whatever it expects the voltage to be and the power

00:01:43   wall, I don't know how these things work, but I imagine maybe the power wall actually

00:01:46   supplies a little bit less than the actual grid.

00:01:48   Or a little bit more, I mean, either way, if it's not exact.

00:01:51   - Yeah, okay.

00:01:52   - It's a kilowatt thing, I'll plug it in next time and I'll let you know.

00:01:55   - Okay, is there a manual button on the UPS you can press to say, "Hey, power's back,

00:01:58   start using that?"

00:01:59   'Cause I know my UPSs flip out if there's even like a little flicker, but they realize

00:02:05   pretty quickly that, "Oh, power is actually back on now and I can get off of battery,"

00:02:09   and they switch back.

00:02:10   - We're fortunate that we don't actually have extremely frequent power outages, so I'm not

00:02:14   really a power user, no pun intended, of my UPSs.

00:02:17   I hardly ever need to do anything with them.

00:02:19   So if there's any kind of weird options or buttons or gestures or things I could press

00:02:24   to fix it, I probably don't know about it.

00:02:27   - We had the same storm blow through here yesterday, and I'm not saying it was quite

00:02:33   as bad here as it was there, but it was bad for us anyway.

00:02:36   And we had our power flicker a few times, and many years ago, my parents had a Honda

00:02:44   inverter generator, and a big one.

00:02:48   It's on wheels because it's not the sort of thing you can carry, right?

00:02:51   And I forget exactly how many watts it is, but it's big.

00:02:55   It's physically large, and it can power...

00:02:57   It might even be able to power our HVAC, maybe, but that would probably be a stretch.

00:03:03   Well, anyways, they eventually put a generac on their house, and they long-term loaned

00:03:07   us this generator, and the power flickered like three times.

00:03:10   And I'm thinking to myself, "Oh, do I have to get the generator out?

00:03:13   Is this the time?"

00:03:14   Which is both like, "Ugh."

00:03:15   And also, "Yes, this moment has finally come!"

00:03:18   Oh yeah.

00:03:19   This is like every dad really wants to use the gear that we have.

00:03:23   That's just a thing.

00:03:24   We have all this gear.

00:03:26   We kind of want an occasional need to use it.

00:03:29   I don't want to live somewhere with super unreliable power, but it is nice to have one

00:03:33   blackout a year where it's like, "Yes, I get to use all my cool stuff."

00:03:37   It's such a pain to get it hooked up and whatnot.

00:03:40   We have a bespoke generator hookup right by the fuse box.

00:03:43   We have a generator interlock in the fuse box, as you are supposed to do, and blah,

00:03:46   blah, blah.

00:03:47   But it's just a pain in the tuckus.

00:03:49   And so I was mostly happy that we didn't have to deal with it.

00:03:52   And the one time I have used it in the several years that it's lived here, the one time I

00:03:56   have used it, I forget what the situation was, but we lost power for like an hour.

00:04:00   And then you play the game of like, you don't want to put too much gasoline in the thing

00:04:04   because it's really not...

00:04:05   I think this actually might be fuel injected, but especially for carbureted things, you

00:04:08   don't want to leave gas in there because it'll gum up the carburetor.

00:04:10   And so you're putting in like little teeny, teeny, teeny, tiny bits of gas, just enough

00:04:14   to keep you going so you don't have to run the generator for 18 hours after the power

00:04:18   comes back just to get the gas out of it.

00:04:20   And so it's just, it's the sort of stress that dads live for to your point, but it's

00:04:25   still a moment of stress, nevertheless.

00:04:27   To be clear, your gas powered version of this sounds awful to me because I know that's a

00:04:31   very common thing, but to me, like...

00:04:33   The worst.

00:04:34   I know.

00:04:35   The worst.

00:04:36   I'm not even going to argue that right now, but that, yeah, the idea of this using gas

00:04:39   sounds horrendous to me because you're right, because all of the stuff you have to deal

00:04:43   with.

00:04:44   Like, you know, for me, if we have a power outage that lasts 10 minutes, I just have

00:04:47   power.

00:04:48   Like, I mean, to these handful of outlets, like it just works.

00:04:51   Like I don't have to think about it.

00:04:52   I don't have to go haul out a thing and, you know, start it, hook it up, start it up, dump

00:04:57   a bunch of gas in it, like hear it all that time because, you know, batteries are awfully

00:05:01   quiet in operation.

00:05:02   So it's a very different experience.

00:05:05   That's true.

00:05:06   The difference between you and me is that if we had like a multi-week outage, I can

00:05:10   add gas.

00:05:11   You're f*cked.

00:05:12   No, I'm not.

00:05:13   I have solar topping it off every day.

00:05:14   I can go longer than you can.

00:05:16   Oh!

00:05:17   Damn it.

00:05:18   I thought I had you on that one.

00:05:20   Nope.

00:05:21   All right, I'll allow it.

00:05:22   Well, what if it's really, really rainy for a really long time, Marco?

00:05:25   What then?

00:05:26   I mean, there's still light in the sky.

00:05:28   Like it's not, maybe not as much, but like there's still light.

00:05:32   I genuinely, as much as I'm snarking, I don't know the first thing about how well solar

00:05:36   works in anything but like bright sunlight.

00:05:38   And for all I know, you get like 95% of the power generation, even when it's cloudy.

00:05:44   I have no idea.

00:05:45   No, well, so in my experience, like, I mean, it depends on the season, of course, like

00:05:49   how many just hours of daylight you even have in a day.

00:05:52   So like, you know, in January, even if it's a very sunny day, there's way fewer daylight

00:05:56   hours than you have like in August.

00:05:58   That's true.

00:05:59   But just for reference, like on a really great day in the summer, my panels might make like

00:06:04   90 kilowatt hours.

00:06:07   And on a really terrible day in January, they'll still make like 20.

00:06:11   So it's not, it's not like nothing.

00:06:13   It's not a ton, of course, but that's a pretty, like that's still a decent amount of power

00:06:17   considering it's free.

00:06:19   And you know, so, so, you know, obviously there's a lot of asterisks on that, on that

00:06:22   free, but like it's, it's substantially easier to get than, you know, having to go get gas

00:06:28   somewhere and everything.

00:06:29   That's all right.

00:06:30   All right.

00:06:31   We should probably get this show on the road.

00:06:34   Let's do some follow up.

00:06:36   Video Alex writes, I was listening to your discussion on the watch bands breaking compatibility.

00:06:41   I think the new bands will most likely be one surface with a clasp or perhaps bracelet

00:06:44   style with magnetic section to hold the watch unit to it.

00:06:48   Surely a pass through hole for sensors, et cetera, in the band.

00:06:51   The best example I can think of is Swatch has a system like this or had a system like

00:06:55   this, excuse me, in the eighties and nineties, which you can see in this eBay listing.

00:06:58   And we will put that in the show notes.

00:07:01   I get what we're going for here, but I don't know, it's just, this doesn't smell right

00:07:09   to me and I can't put my finger on why.

00:07:10   Yeah.

00:07:11   The only reason I can see a motivation for this idea is like, we need more surface area

00:07:15   for the magnetic attachment rumor to be true.

00:07:17   So if, if, you know, people should look at the link that we put in, but it's like, it's

00:07:21   like if you had just a continuous strap that goes around your wrist, there's no watch on

00:07:25   it.

00:07:26   It's just a strap, right?

00:07:27   That you know, slips through a sort of holder that the watch and then magnetically snaps

00:07:33   into.

00:07:34   Right.

00:07:35   And so you have more surface area for the magnets cause your, your, your watch is magnetically

00:07:38   attaching like vertically onto the strap.

00:07:41   The straps aren't pulling on the sides of the watch, but that's got a lot of things

00:07:44   going against it.

00:07:45   I mean, it's difficult not to make that raise the watch higher up off your wrist, which

00:07:48   is the last thing that they want.

00:07:50   It really limits the options fashion wise.

00:07:53   I just, you wouldn't, you know, you don't want to strap underneath your watch.

00:07:57   And I think I'm not sure how much more surface area we give you unless it class the outside

00:08:01   of the watch, like the swatch thing does, but it looks really ugly.

00:08:04   So I'm, I'm gonna put my money against this.

00:08:07   Yeah, me too.

00:08:08   I don't.

00:08:09   So there's a number of problems with this theory.

00:08:11   So number one, as John said, it raises the watch off your wrist more.

00:08:14   So it makes it effectively thicker.

00:08:16   You don't want that.

00:08:18   And you can see, this is all like, you don't have, this isn't theoretical.

00:08:20   The entire rest of the watch world has gone nuts over the last decade or so for something

00:08:26   called a NATO strap.

00:08:27   It's exactly this.

00:08:29   It's like a continuous loop of fabric that goes under the watch and the watch sits on

00:08:33   top of part of the strap.

00:08:35   And it does this.

00:08:36   It pushes the watch up.

00:08:37   It makes it thicker.

00:08:38   It's a certain look.

00:08:39   It works for certain watches, but all the watches that it works on are thin.

00:08:43   And the Apple watch, the watch body is kind of, you know, medium thickness for a watch.

00:08:48   What is it about 12 millimeters?

00:08:50   But then it has the big bulge in the bottom.

00:08:52   It's like, you could kind of make it work, but I think it would still raise up off the

00:08:56   wrist more than not doing this.

00:08:58   And then also if it's attached by magnets, remember magnets hold very strong straight

00:09:02   on, but very weakly to sideways motions.

00:09:05   If that attached magnetically head on, it would very easily get knocked off the strap

00:09:10   with any kind of side impact to it.

00:09:13   The swatch one that they show the picture of has like sidewalls to essentially to mechanically

00:09:17   prevent sideways movement.

00:09:18   Yeah, the swatch one is more like a protective case for the watch almost.

00:09:22   Like it goes all around.

00:09:23   Yeah, but if you had sidewalls, they wouldn't need to go up that high.

00:09:26   You just need them to go up high enough to prevent movement laterally and then the magnets

00:09:30   would prevent the up and down movement.

00:09:31   But see, and see then, I can't see Apple doing that either because then first of all, that

00:09:34   would kind of constrain how large the watch body is and what shape it is based on whatever

00:09:42   the strap ecosystem has been working with so far.

00:09:45   And even like the size of the sensor hole, what if they want to change the sensors in

00:09:49   a future model of watch, but they won't fit in the hole?

00:09:52   It would be like making a bunch of keyboards for the iPad that needed to be exactly the

00:09:56   size for each individual iPad.

00:09:57   It would be nuts.

00:09:58   Yeah, so yeah, I don't see them going in that kind of direction and I don't, and I think

00:10:02   if they did, it would be worse and that's probably why they won't.

00:10:05   All right, I meant to bring this up originally and then it slipped my mind because I didn't

00:10:10   put it in the official show notes.

00:10:11   I only put it in the ones that we eventually released to people.

00:10:14   But anyways, your time shifting was a success.

00:10:18   I thought we should call this out that your time shifting, to some degree, if you had

00:10:22   just done the standard Marco/Casey approach of procrastinating, this problem would have

00:10:27   solved itself.

00:10:28   Yes, I was trying to time shift the Fish concert that had happened and it turns out they just

00:10:34   released the meat of it for free on YouTube for everybody.

00:10:40   What do you mean by the meat of it?

00:10:41   I'm not trying to be funny, I'm genuinely asking.

00:10:43   The meat stick of it, you know.

00:10:44   Well done, well done.

00:10:45   That was a different show.

00:10:46   So no, it was a concert with three sets and the really important New Year's Eve historic

00:10:57   segment of it was only kind of one and a half of those sets.

00:11:00   And so what they released was that part, the big story that all the fans have been waiting

00:11:05   for to be told in this way for 30 years.

00:11:08   And so anyway, that is the part that was released.

00:11:11   It was not the whole concert, but it was the most important part.

00:11:14   Gotcha.

00:11:15   Well anyway, we will put a link in the show notes in case you want to punish yourself.

00:11:19   I'm sorry, in case you want to participate in this sort of thing.

00:11:22   So I posted on it like earlier, like yes, they released it.

00:11:26   I've gotten some amazing responses because people are going to watch it who have no idea.

00:11:29   Because here's the thing, it's basically like an acted out musical of this whole story that's

00:11:37   like ancient Fish lore.

00:11:39   If you're not a Fish fan, this would look ridiculously weird to you.

00:11:44   And I respect anyone who's actually like trying to get into this as their first experience

00:11:49   of this band because that's really diving into the deep end.

00:11:53   And I applaud you if you could make it through it without just being like this is weird and

00:11:57   turning it off.

00:11:59   This is not a great introduction to the band as a result, but it is an adventurous one.

00:12:03   So if that's what you're looking for, go for it.

00:12:05   But it's going to be very strange to people who are not already like dedicated Fish fans.

00:12:11   Indeed.

00:12:12   OLED iPad Pros could start from $1,500 rising to as much as $2,000 plus.

00:12:20   This is according to MacRumors.

00:12:22   MacRumors writes, "This is the second time a Korean source has claimed that Apple's new

00:12:25   iPad Pros will be vastly more expensive than the company's existing models.

00:12:28   Last March, a report by the Elec estimated prices starting at $1,500 and $1,800 for the

00:12:33   18 and 13-inch models respectively.

00:12:35   If accurate, these price hikes could make the new 11-inch device over 80% more expensive

00:12:40   than the existing 11-inch iPad Pro with LED Liquid Retina display, which starts at $800.

00:12:45   As for the 13-inch model, assuming a base configuration cost $1,800, it would be around

00:12:50   60% more expensive than the current 12.9-inch iPad Pro with Mini-LED Liquid Retina XDR display,

00:12:55   which starts at $1,100."

00:12:56   Oh, Nelly, I'm already really uncomfortable with the potential expenditures in the next

00:13:01   couple of weeks, but, hoo, I mean, I'm not in the market for an iPad right now, but my

00:13:05   word.

00:13:06   - There's a lot of, it depends here.

00:13:08   A lot of this could be storage tiering, where maybe they just eliminate some of the lower

00:13:13   storage tiers of the iPad Pros, and so it's not quite an apples to apples comparison.

00:13:21   So there could be some of that going on, but I think it really depends for me, whether

00:13:26   this is a good idea and whether the market will bear this, depends a lot on what they

00:13:29   intend to do with the next iPad Air model.

00:13:32   Because what we've seen over the last couple of years is that the iPad Air has been elevated

00:13:39   into many more formerly Pro-only features.

00:13:43   It is still missing some big ones.

00:13:44   For me personally, the big thing that's missing is Face ID.

00:13:48   So if they can bring some of what makes an iPad Pro down to the iPad Air model, which

00:13:53   again, they've been on this path, that I think would free up the iPad Pro to kind of let

00:13:59   it be higher end components, let it be more pricey, let it serve the high end that is

00:14:04   there.

00:14:05   Now, that leaves a large question of what high end is there, and how big that is and

00:14:08   whether this will work or not, but the high end iPad market definitely exists.

00:14:14   I don't think it's very big.

00:14:16   So it kind of makes sense for Apple to make it a more premium thing, extract more money

00:14:21   from the people who are in it, as long as the people who are not in that market have

00:14:26   other models that can serve their needs at their price points.

00:14:28   So if they decide to kind of push the Air a little bit higher, give it a couple of Pro-only

00:14:33   features like Face ID, I think that would free them up, and then I don't think this

00:14:38   is that big of a deal, because there are people who will buy a $1,500, $2,000 iPad.

00:14:43   Those people exist, there just aren't a ton of them.

00:14:46   - I don't know, I think these rumors of pricing are always suspect, because pricing is the

00:14:51   type of thing that Apple can keep very close to the vest, doesn't need to share with anybody,

00:14:56   and change to the last minute, it's even easier to change than things like the name of the

00:15:00   product.

00:15:02   So the idea that some other, I don't know if this is a supply chain thing, but anyway,

00:15:08   sources far away from the people who are actually making the decision would know about the pricing,

00:15:12   seems strange to me, unless of course they're saying, "Look, we know that these new OLED

00:15:17   screens they're gonna put in cost X amount of dollars, and if you just apply Apple's

00:15:20   traditional margins, that means the final product has to be this much, and last Apple's

00:15:23   gonna take a hit to their margins."

00:15:25   And I don't think they gave that to supporting evidence of based on the cost of the screen,

00:15:29   these are gonna have to be X amount more than the old ones, especially an 80% price increase.

00:15:36   I know the OLEDs are probably more expensive than the LCDs, and they're also probably the

00:15:41   most expensive thing in the product, because the SOC, for all its importance, is much less

00:15:46   expensive than that screen.

00:15:47   I still don't think it would justify an 80% price increase based on parts, so then they'll

00:15:51   just be like, "Okay, well the parts don't justify it," but then you have to go to Marco's

00:15:54   idea of like, "Oh, they're just going upmarket, and they're just gonna make them more expensive,"

00:15:58   but how would they know that?

00:15:59   That's definitely the type of thing that Apple would not need to discuss with a large number

00:16:02   of people, so I'm taking all this with a grain of salt, with the only exception being that,

00:16:06   as we all know, if you just go to the top storage tier, these things cost as much as

00:16:09   a car no matter what, because of Apple's magical fairy dust diamond-coated SSD prices, right?

00:16:16   So if they offer this with an 8TB SSD, what is the add 8TB SSD prices, like $2,200 on

00:16:21   max or something?

00:16:23   Let's add $2,200 to the existing price of the iPad, so if they offer an 8TB iPad, yeah,

00:16:28   it's gonna be like five grand or something, and it's stupid and sucks, and we all hate

00:16:32   it, but that could also be the source of this rumor, so when they come out, someone will

00:16:35   go to the configurator and say, "See, the rumors are right.

00:16:37   I can configure this $2,000."

00:16:38   Yeah, of course you can.

00:16:40   Anyway, I'm holding out.

00:16:41   I hope that they don't start at $1,500.

00:16:42   I'll still buy it at $1,500, to be clear, but I prefer not to, because all I want is

00:16:46   that really nice screen, and a really nice 11-inch OLED screen is not really $1,500.

00:16:53   And I know there's an entire computer attached to it and a battery and face ID sensors and

00:16:58   so on and so forth, but boy, that's pushing it, considering even Apple's own 27-inch

00:17:03   monitor, 5K monitor, is $1,600.

00:17:07   I guess that's not OLED, but still.

00:17:09   So here's hoping it's not $1,500 to start.

00:17:13   Anonymous writes, "In my capacity as an AWS solutions architect, I've worked with Apple

00:17:18   over the past two years as they leverage several of AWS's ML services.

00:17:21   From my experience, Apple has mostly been interested in smaller open-source LLMs.

00:17:25   In particular, a crucial factor for the Apple teams I was working with was always the token

00:17:31   context window, or in other words, how many tokens you can fit into the prompt for an

00:17:35   LLM.

00:17:36   This makes sense, especially when thinking about multi-turn conversations with Siri,

00:17:40   as all the previous conversations fit into the context window in order for Siri to keep

00:17:43   track of it.

00:17:44   In 2022, the token context windows for open-source models was usually about 512 tokens.

00:17:49   But as with so many things in the LLM space, we saw massive progress in 2023 to the point

00:17:55   where the best open-source models, for example, Metas, Llama 2, now have a 32,000 token window,

00:18:03   which corresponds to 25,000 words, or between 50 and 100 pages.

00:18:08   With regard to virtual assistants and the fact that LLMs are not optimized for correct

00:18:11   answers, but for plausible sounding answers, one approach that I found very promising when

00:18:14   working with customers is retrieval augmented generation.

00:18:17   This is the process of optimizing the output of a large language model, so it references

00:18:20   an authoritative knowledge base, for example, IMDB, the internet, SQL databases, etc., outside

00:18:26   of its training data sources before generating a response.

00:18:29   The Alexa team has been working a lot with this method to ensure that questions like

00:18:32   Michael Jackson's age are answered correctly.

00:18:34   You can find more info on RAG here, and we'll put a link in the show notes.

00:18:38   And then finally, with regard to how LLMs work, John was correct with his description

00:18:42   of LLMs, just predicting the next word without really knowing where this prediction came

00:18:46   from.

00:18:47   It's equivalent to me writing an email and then someone asking me where those words come

00:18:49   from, to which I would only respond, "I don't know, I guess I read a lot during my lifetime."

00:18:54   Here's a very good blog post that explains how LLMs and the various parameters to manipulate

00:18:57   the probability distributions work.

00:18:59   We'll put that link in the show notes.

00:19:00   And then, just as an addendum, while that post that I just mentioned is almost four

00:19:04   years old, it still holds up and explains accurately how LLMs work.

00:19:08   David Webb writes, "One of the reasons Alexa is so good at general knowledge questions

00:19:12   is that there's a whole community of people writing answers for these questions in return

00:19:15   for karma points.

00:19:16   You can find the Alexa answer site here.

00:19:17   I had no idea this was a thing and this blew my friggin' mind."

00:19:21   Oh, I had no idea.

00:19:23   Right?

00:19:24   That's the Amazon approach, Mechanical Turk.

00:19:26   Yep.

00:19:27   How do they do this?

00:19:28   They pay a bunch of people not too much money to do it.

00:19:30   Oh, well, do they even pay?

00:19:32   Oh, these are really sad.

00:19:34   They're just sad.

00:19:35   But do they even pay or are they just doing it for karma?

00:19:37   Well, I don't know what karma points are, but...

00:19:39   So here's the thing, these two things go together.

00:19:41   Talking about the retrieval augmented generation, the idea that you have a piece of software

00:19:46   that looks to the side at a database of authoritative information before it goes to the LLM, it's

00:19:54   like, wow, that's a clever...

00:19:55   We've talked about this before, some way to either constrain or provide additional data

00:20:02   that is more authoritative than just guess based on your giant soup of knowledge.

00:20:05   But then the other route is, no, don't do that, just pay people.

00:20:08   Or just get people to figure it out.

00:20:09   Just get someone to look it up and put it into...

00:20:13   Essentially how does that retrieval augmented generation, how does that database off the

00:20:17   side get populated?

00:20:18   Just have people putting in answers to questions.

00:20:22   When did Michael Jackson die?

00:20:23   Someone puts that in.

00:20:24   And now that is part of that authoritative database that the software looks up before

00:20:28   it goes to the LLM.

00:20:29   Because that's what you really need.

00:20:31   For IMDB and stuff, you've already got that data, but for just like, what's a thing that

00:20:35   somebody might ask?

00:20:36   I don't know, all the US presidents, their ages and birthplaces, sports results in popular

00:20:43   sports for the past several decades, famous people.

00:20:47   And so just to generate all those facts and put them into sort of a structured form so

00:20:52   you can look aside at that information, the Amazon approach to that is get people to do

00:20:57   it.

00:20:58   That's bananas.

00:20:59   I mean, I'm not surprised.

00:21:00   As soon as I read it, I was like, what?

00:21:01   Oh, yeah, okay.

00:21:02   But still.

00:21:03   All right.

00:21:04   So we have a section of questions from this site.

00:21:06   Does white bread have bleach in it?

00:21:08   What does the name Supreme mean?

00:21:11   And my favorite, what's open heart surgery?

00:21:14   Oh, my.

00:21:15   These are, I mean, see, the thing is, what does Amazon know?

00:21:18   Amazon knows what people ask, because they have thousands and thousands of microphones

00:21:22   at people's houses that are just listening and people are asking them questions and when

00:21:25   they don't know the answer, I'm sure they write them off to the side somewhere and tally

00:21:30   them up and smush them all together and find out, boy, a lot of people want to know if

00:21:33   white bread has bleach in it.

00:21:34   Let's add that to the list and throw it into the list and some human picks it out and writes

00:21:39   in the answer that says, "You hope not."

00:21:42   Oh, I think I found my soulmate.

00:21:44   Somebody asked, "What is the golf tournament?"

00:21:49   How do birds get water in the winter?

00:21:51   That's actually a good question.

00:21:52   That was bad before.

00:21:53   Oh, my God, this is amazing.

00:21:55   Magnets, how do they work?

00:21:57   I'm so, on one hand, some of these are very endearing.

00:22:01   Many of them are just kind of sad.

00:22:02   Well, you know, people need answers.

00:22:06   Where does Cupid come from?

00:22:09   My word.

00:22:10   All right, final note.

00:22:12   Apparently, everything's coming up Marco.

00:22:13   I mean, Milhouse, I mean Marco right now.

00:22:15   Microsoft's keyboards and mice will live on, baby.

00:22:18   Microsoft surprised everyone last year by deciding to discontinue its range of popular

00:22:22   mice keyboards and PC accessories.

00:22:24   I don't know where this is from.

00:22:25   I apologize.

00:22:26   I can't cite the source, but anyways.

00:22:27   I think The Verge had a big article about it.

00:22:28   Okay, after decades of Microsoft branded PC hardware, the software giant has decided to

00:22:32   focus on the Surface brand instead.

00:22:34   Now a unique partnership will see Microsoft's PC accessories live on thanks to Accessory

00:22:37   Maker Incase.

00:22:38   There are 23 products in total that will be available later this year.

00:22:42   We will put a link in the show notes.

00:22:44   Yeah, this is great, you know, because Microsoft over the years has made some pretty great

00:22:47   keyboards and mice, and they tend to make them for a very long time because, you know,

00:22:52   they tend to not be, you know, super exciting.

00:22:54   You don't need to change them that often, and people like them and, you know, businesses

00:22:58   buy a ton of them.

00:23:00   So it's a pretty decent business to be in.

00:23:02   It's, you know, it's not super exciting, but it's, you know, nice reliable income for products

00:23:06   that they've designed and manufactured, you know, oftentimes like 15, 20 years ago, and

00:23:10   they're still making.

00:23:12   So you know, it did kind of baffle everyone when Microsoft, you know, announced like,

00:23:16   "Hey, we're just going to stop doing this after a very long time.

00:23:19   You know, we're going to stop doing this fairly low needs business for reasons.

00:23:24   I don't know why."

00:23:25   And a lot of people were upset because like when you can't get your keyboard anymore,

00:23:28   I mean, the downside is like my favorite keyboard, the Sculpt ergonomic, is extremely short-lived.

00:23:34   It only lasts like two or three years usually before it dies and you have to buy a new one.

00:23:39   So a lot of fans of these keyboards were very upset about this.

00:23:43   And so now, Incase has effectively entered some kind of partnership with Microsoft where

00:23:48   they're not like, you know, making their own brand new things.

00:23:52   They're just basically continuing Microsoft's existing manufacturing operations to make

00:23:56   these keyboards.

00:23:57   They're continuing what sounds like basically the same factories, you know, the same parts,

00:24:01   the same designs, same suppliers.

00:24:04   It'll just have the Incase branding on it and then Incase will then, I assume, support

00:24:08   these.

00:24:09   I guess that's good.

00:24:10   I don't know a ton about Incase.

00:24:11   You know, they seem like one of those kind of like mass semi-budget brand makers of a

00:24:17   bunch of different PC accessories over the years.

00:24:19   So it's probably not a bad thing, you know, for the quality of the product or anything.

00:24:24   It's just a good thing.

00:24:25   They're going to keep having these keyboards and mice that we love so much.

00:24:28   They're going to keep being made.

00:24:29   And that's great.

00:24:30   And I would love for some, you know, in some future I would love for one of these thousand

00:24:35   different, you know, fancy keyboard companies that exist to make something that is as ergonomic

00:24:40   as the Sculpt ergonomic keyboard but no one ever has.

00:24:43   Yes, I know about the new Logitech one.

00:24:45   It's not.

00:24:46   Like no one ever has matched this keyboard.

00:24:50   Please, for the love of all that is holy, someone make ergonomic keyboards that A, make

00:24:55   them tilt downwards towards the top of them, not downwards towards the bottom.

00:25:01   So that's called reverse tilting.

00:25:02   B, have kind of a bulbous peak in the middle of them that then slopes downward to the left

00:25:08   and right.

00:25:09   That's called, I believe that's called tenting.

00:25:11   And C, does not have the giant extended numpad on the right side.

00:25:16   That way you have to keep your mouse like all the way in New Jersey off to the right

00:25:19   side and it forces your arm to bend out more.

00:25:22   Ergonomic keyboards are very simple to make.

00:25:23   If you follow those three guidelines, no one does it.

00:25:26   I don't know why.

00:25:27   But anyway, until anyone else does, we can now buy the Microsoft once again through,

00:25:32   well we can soon rather, buy the Microsoft once again through Incase.

00:25:36   If you look at the, that article, they list the products that Incase will be making.

00:25:42   I think it's like 23 individual products.

00:25:45   Guess what's not on that list?

00:25:46   Oh no.

00:25:47   What?

00:25:48   My mouse.

00:25:49   Oh no!

00:25:50   Come on!

00:25:51   I thought it was a Marco oh no, it turns out it's a John oh no.

00:25:55   Oh no, I checked.

00:25:56   Yeah, I was so disappointed.

00:25:58   At first, when I first saw the story, I'm like, oh my mouse is there, I'm fine.

00:26:00   But it's not.

00:26:01   It's the Bluetooth ergonomic mouse, which I think does not support a wired connection,

00:26:07   which is how I use mine.

00:26:08   So it's the same shape as mine, but then I couldn't use it plugged in and I haven't had

00:26:14   good luck with the various wireless things here.

00:26:16   So I don't know what I'm going to do.

00:26:18   I mean, they make the Bluetooth ergonomic mouse, why don't they also make the Microsoft

00:26:22   Precision mouse, which is just the Bluetooth ergonomic mouse, but with a wired connection.

00:26:26   Or maybe what they're calling the Bluetooth ergonomic mouse will also have the wired connection.

00:26:30   We'll see, I can't tell from the picture, but it's not looking great for my mouse preferences.

00:26:34   And my mouse, kind of like Marco's keyboard, as we noted, aside from all the problems I

00:26:37   have with it, the rubber thing on the side wears out and gets like a soft, gross spot

00:26:42   on it.

00:26:43   So it has a lifetime ticking down on it as well.

00:26:47   Sounds like great products.

00:26:48   I mean, to be fair, like I don't think that's that unreasonable for keyboards and mice,

00:26:53   which are these like very high moving parts, high motion, high usage kind of product.

00:27:00   It's unreasonable for, I don't know how to speak to your keyboard, but I think it's unreasonable

00:27:03   for a mouse because of what I think I had my other, my original mouse for what maybe

00:27:09   it was like one or two years, maybe it was less than a year, but like we have materials

00:27:14   for mice that can withstand holding and using it.

00:27:16   I use mice for years and years and years.

00:27:19   And if they just make the whole mouse out of that plastic, you're fine.

00:27:23   Or if you make it out of a rubber that survived, like Logitech rubber, I've never worn through

00:27:26   the rubber on a Logitech mouse.

00:27:27   I'm sure it varies depending on your skin chemistry and which particular mouse you have.

00:27:32   But like, I'm not doing anything really weird to my mouse.

00:27:35   It should last way longer than these last, like way, way, way, way, way longer.

00:27:39   Like, and I feel the same way about your keyboard.

00:27:41   I use an Apple extended 2 keyboard for like, you know, 10, 12 years and it was fine despite

00:27:46   the, you know, broken off F5 key.

00:27:49   And that was, that was the fault of a pocket knife, not the keyboard.

00:27:52   I think your standards are too low for peripherals.

00:27:54   How's your, what do you call it?

00:27:56   Apple mouse.

00:27:57   Is there anything wearing off on that one?

00:27:59   I mean, very slowly, the big long strips of plastic that kind of serve as like anti-skid

00:28:04   things, they very slowly develop scratches over time, but otherwise, no.

00:28:09   And you can replace the little Teflon feet.

00:28:11   Like you can just take those out and get, put new ones in there.

00:28:13   That's on most good mice.

00:28:15   But yeah, this, again, the only reason I'm using the Microsoft one is one, the scroll

00:28:19   wheel feels really good.

00:28:21   It feels the way I want it to feel that people have different preferences and their squirrel

00:28:24   wheels, but I liked the way this one feels.

00:28:25   And two, the shape of this mouse is as close as I could get to the shape that I prefer.

00:28:30   The scroll wheels are like transmissions.

00:28:32   You know, what's better than a manual transmission.

00:28:34   No transmission.

00:28:35   You know, it's better than a great scroll wheel.

00:28:38   No scroll wheel.

00:28:39   I kind of like squirrel wheels.

00:28:40   The magic mouse, man.

00:28:41   It gets me every day.

00:28:42   It's like you try to use anything else.

00:28:44   It's like, oh, I got to click this thing.

00:28:45   Like what year is this?

00:28:46   See, the funny thing is, so I am, I am a track, a Magic Trackpad user for the last several

00:28:53   years.

00:28:54   We've been over this before, but I was one of the last people that I knew to use a Magic

00:28:57   Mouse.

00:28:58   And the thing that the Magic Mouse that got me was not the scrolling and the initial,

00:29:02   inertial, excuse me, scrolling, which I agree with you, Marco.

00:29:05   I'm not arguing that a bit, but what got it, got me on the Magic Mouse, which I guess you

00:29:09   can do this with some of these like MX Master mice or whatever, but you can do the two fingers

00:29:13   side to side, or maybe, no, I'm sorry.

00:29:14   It was two fingers side to side, go forward and back.

00:29:16   That's what it is on Safari.

00:29:18   And three fingers side to side is what I was trying to say to go through different virtual

00:29:22   screens, which I think I'm the only one of the three of us that does that, but you know,

00:29:25   to go through different spaces.

00:29:26   And so it's the lateral two and three finger things that really kept me on the Magic Mouse

00:29:31   for years.

00:29:32   And I don't remember what the impetus was for me to go to the track pad.

00:29:36   I think I just wanted to give it a shot and then ended up really liking it.

00:29:40   But I've been all track pad.

00:29:41   I think since my iMac Pro, if I'm not mistaken, it's been a fair bit of time now.

00:29:46   There's a lot more room on a track pad to three finger swipe sideways.

00:29:49   I mean, doing that on the surface of a mouse is tight.

00:29:52   Or maybe, I'm sorry, maybe it's wrong.

00:29:53   Maybe it's one finger left and right.

00:29:54   I forget.

00:29:55   It's been so long since I've used Magic Mouse.

00:29:56   I have one.

00:29:57   I just haven't used it.

00:29:58   In fact, I think I have my iPad Pros one, but I've used them so rarely.

00:30:01   But whatever the situation was, it was like one or two fingers to go back and forward

00:30:04   in Safari.

00:30:05   I wanted to say it was two and then like three to do spaces if memory serves.

00:30:08   But again, I might have that wrong.

00:30:10   But if it's wrong, it doesn't matter.

00:30:12   But you get my Mac Pro came with a Magic Mouse.

00:30:14   It's still in the box.

00:30:17   I think it came with it.

00:30:18   It must have come with one, right?

00:30:19   I don't remember.

00:30:20   Yeah, it was the game of the keyboard and I'm using the keyboard.

00:30:22   So yeah, the mouse has got to be in the box.

00:30:23   Well, it could have come with a track pad.

00:30:24   I think you could have optioned one or the other or I would never have optioned the track

00:30:27   pad.

00:30:28   Although now I have a track pad.

00:30:29   We finally found my wife's old track pad.

00:30:30   We were cleaning up in the office and now I have this track pad sitting on the desk in

00:30:33   front of me.

00:30:34   I'm so sorry that you have to be that close to a piece that's similar to a laptop.

00:30:37   Yeah, I don't know what I'm going to do with it.

00:30:40   I got to, is there, they're hard to store because they're all got a wedge shape.

00:30:41   I'm like, maybe should I try to use it?

00:30:42   So just put it on my desk.

00:30:43   I don't know.

00:30:44   It's just sitting there now.

00:30:45   You try to store it in a stack and everything slides off slowly.

00:30:48   It's paired to the computer.

00:30:50   Like I moved the cursor with it and like, okay, nevermind.

00:30:54   Do grasshoppers have tongues?

00:30:56   Are we back on Alexa?

00:30:58   This is like, what is it?

00:31:00   Yahoo Answers?

00:31:01   What's the definition of watering?

00:31:03   Yeah, the origin of how is Babby formed?

00:31:06   What's the difference between couch and sofa?

00:31:08   That's a good question.

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00:32:48   [Music]

00:32:52   Apple announced that the Vision Pro is going to launch on February 2 and you'll be able

00:32:57   to order it on Friday the 19th.

00:32:59   Apple, I'm very surprised, is continuing to be kind to these coasters within 8 a.m. introduction

00:33:06   time which I am here for.

00:33:08   I am very appreciative of that, whether or not I end up ordering one.

00:33:12   Basically, it will be available at all United States Apple Store locations and it will also

00:33:17   be available online.

00:33:19   It's unclear to me and I don't think it has been made clear whether or not you must pick

00:33:23   up at a store which was a rumor that we heard for a while.

00:33:27   You can get lenses for it.

00:33:28   You can get reader style optical inserts for $100.

00:33:33   I presume that's $100 for a pair.

00:33:36   I actually don't know.

00:33:37   I would, yeah.

00:33:38   Yeah, it's interesting they didn't say that but it does say plural so I'm going to say

00:33:41   pair.

00:33:42   Yeah, reading glasses lenses are very cheap.

00:33:43   They are in Apple land, they're $100.

00:33:45   Yes, everywhere else it's like $5.

00:33:47   Apple.

00:33:48   You can buy them at a drug store for $2 or from Apple for $100.

00:33:52   And then if you need full on prescription lenses or optical inserts, excuse me, that's

00:33:56   $150.

00:33:57   Again, the assumption is for a pair but that isn't absolutely stated so we're not sure.

00:34:03   And that is actually quote unquote inexpensive as compared to the ridiculous system we have

00:34:07   in the US for actual prescription lenses that you buy.

00:34:12   Some people were discussing this online about the pricing for the prescription lenses in

00:34:16   particular were thinking if you were to buy glasses, you know, plain old glasses at a

00:34:20   regular glasses store in the US and you had prescription lenses and you got those lenses

00:34:24   for $150, they're going to be the cheapest lenses the place has to sell to you.

00:34:29   So they're not going to be this super fancy high index, you know, plastic where they'll

00:34:35   make lenses thinner or whatever.

00:34:36   Probably less of an issue because inside a headset and no one's looking at them anyway.

00:34:40   But I do wonder what material these are made out of and what the index is.

00:34:44   High index is like how much does this bend the light for the thickness, right?

00:34:48   And so if you if you have really bad vision like I do to get something that is my correct

00:34:52   prescription and it's not high index plastic, the glasses are incredibly thick.

00:34:57   You talk about Coke bottle glasses, but they're such a number of those things that make sense

00:35:01   to older people, maybe not younger people.

00:35:03   Coca Cola used to come in glass bottles and you cracked off the bottom of the glass bottle,

00:35:07   the glass in the bottom was thicker.

00:35:09   And if you had really thick glasses, people would say you had Coke bottle glasses because

00:35:12   they look like really, really thick glass.

00:35:15   I did.

00:35:16   I got them once.

00:35:17   My parents got me non high index plastic glasses.

00:35:20   They were so thick.

00:35:21   They were like a centimeter thick.

00:35:22   It was ridiculous looking, just huge, massive.

00:35:26   Every time you see like glasses frames in the store or like a model wearing glasses,

00:35:31   they're always wearing them with these lenses that are like wafer thin.

00:35:35   Right.

00:35:36   But when you have actual bad vision and you don't use high index plastic, the lenses become

00:35:40   thicker than the glasses frame very quickly, like five times thicker, not just a little

00:35:46   bit thicker.

00:35:47   So it's no longer like, oh, look at this person wearing these glasses with probably no lenses

00:35:51   in them at all.

00:35:52   They look fashionable.

00:35:53   They don't look fashionable when a centimeter thick piece of plastic is in the middle of

00:35:55   each one of them.

00:35:56   Anyway, it's interesting to see what kind of material these $150 prescription lenses

00:36:02   are made out of.

00:36:03   And again, maybe it makes no difference inside the headset, but I have to think thickness

00:36:07   might be some factor because some people are using this headset with no lenses.

00:36:10   People who are blessed with very good vision and that means the screens like these lenses

00:36:16   are an additional thickness between you and the screen.

00:36:20   And I don't know if you're, if you have very long eyelashes, are they going to brush against

00:36:24   the prescription lenses because they're so close to the screen?

00:36:27   Maybe you two can answer these questions, but you can't talk about it.

00:36:29   Well, we'll find out in a little bit.

00:36:30   Anyway, I'm mostly happy with these prices because even if it's per eye $150, it's still

00:36:36   less than I was fearing they would be.

00:36:38   So I guess that's good.

00:36:41   I wonder too, I mean, first of all, like, you know, the prescription lens industry is

00:36:44   famously like very inflated.

00:36:46   But I wonder too, like they, there's so many things that like, you know, reasons that you

00:36:50   would get higher end prescription lenses that wouldn't really matter inside the Ozenpro.

00:36:54   You know, you mentioned thickness, like, you know, a lot of, I would assume a lot of the

00:36:57   reason why thin lenses are in fashion is first of all, because they look better, like fashionably

00:37:01   wise.

00:37:02   Second of all, because they're lighter weight.

00:37:04   In here, neither of those things is substantially significant, you know.

00:37:09   And also, you know, all the different coatings you can get, like the anti glare coating,

00:37:13   anti scratch, like all these different coatings they try to upsell you on with prescription

00:37:16   lenses.

00:37:17   None of those are really in play here, like that they wouldn't really matter here or be

00:37:21   necessary.

00:37:22   So maybe the combination of all those factors means that it really is not that expensive

00:37:25   to give you prescription lenses.

00:37:27   So the two things that I think are still factors, like I said, is distance, how much space is

00:37:31   there for a really, really thick lens, right?

00:37:33   And the second thing is like sort of the sidewall dimension, like the thicker the glass is,

00:37:37   the bigger the sidewall and the sidewalls are not really participating optically, except

00:37:43   in so far as light may enter the lens and bounce off the sidewall and come back to you

00:37:48   and you don't want that light, like especially since the sides of lenses are often not like

00:37:52   the lenses themselves are clear and polished and everything, but the sidewalls are kind

00:37:55   of like smoky, you know what I mean?

00:37:57   Like that, I know from experience, having worn those glasses that were way too thick,

00:38:01   that were the not high index plastic, those thick smoky sidewalls often were sort of in

00:38:07   my peripheral vision and I felt like light would like light them up, like it would light

00:38:10   up frosted glass and that you probably don't want even inside a headset.

00:38:14   So we'll see.

00:38:16   All right.

00:38:17   So the Vision Pro comes with a solo knit band, which I think is the big thick thing they

00:38:25   pictured most often that goes around the back of your head.

00:38:28   Yeah.

00:38:29   It's like a catcher's mitt on the back of your head.

00:38:30   Exactly.

00:38:31   It was in, I think it was the only thing in the original, like the launch video and all

00:38:35   of the launch artwork for the headset with the exception of maybe one image, it was that

00:38:39   one big single strap that goes behind your head and gets really wide when it goes in

00:38:44   the back of your head.

00:38:46   Then it also has a dual loop band, which Apple says gives users two options for the fit that

00:38:51   works best for them, or I guess between the two bands.

00:38:53   Is that the Hermes version that goes around your head twice?

00:38:58   It's one above your head and one behind your head, right?

00:39:01   And then there's...

00:39:02   Oh, wait, wait.

00:39:03   No, that's what the two options they're talking about are.

00:39:05   One is the solo.

00:39:06   Right.

00:39:07   I have these names.

00:39:08   One is the single strap band and one is the one with two straps, right?

00:39:10   Yeah.

00:39:11   Right.

00:39:12   And then it also includes a light seal, two light seal cushions.

00:39:16   I guess, what are the differences between them there?

00:39:18   So the light seal is the big thick part and the cushion is the part that's actually pressing

00:39:22   against your face?

00:39:23   Yes.

00:39:24   And that's probably why, as the father of a child who has used a VR headset a lot very

00:39:30   heavily, the part that squishes against your face gets really gross and stinky.

00:39:34   Cool.

00:39:35   So it's good to be able to replace those easily.

00:39:37   I wonder if they're machine washable.

00:39:39   Yeah, for goodness, who knows?

00:39:41   So yeah, two light seal cushions, an Apple Vision Pro cover for the front of the device.

00:39:45   I saw that.

00:39:46   I saw that people have patent filings on it.

00:39:48   I'm like, "This is interesting.

00:39:49   I wonder if they'll ship this," and lo and behold, a few days later, a cover for the

00:39:53   front of the device.

00:39:55   The front of the device, I know there's a screen there and it's made of glass and it

00:39:59   shows your eyeballs or whatever, but it really doesn't participate much in the process of

00:40:02   what you see as the wearer.

00:40:04   So I guess you're covering the screen so people can get a scratch-free view of your virtual

00:40:11   eyeballs?

00:40:13   Will it operate with the cover or will the cameras shoot through the cover?

00:40:17   Are there openings for all the cameras?

00:40:19   I'm assuming this is for storage and transport.

00:40:21   Yeah, that's what I thought.

00:40:23   That's why I assume.

00:40:25   For a cover to actually have it be operated through, you'd have to have openings for all

00:40:29   the cameras, all the vent holes, the digital crown, all the different parts of it that

00:40:33   are required.

00:40:34   They probably are not doing that.

00:40:35   It's probably just a cover for storage.

00:40:37   Yeah, that would be like a screen protector, but this has a cover for the front of the

00:40:40   device.

00:40:41   I'm kind of picturing the weird bra they have on the AirPods Max, but for this.

00:40:46   Yeah, because that went so well.

00:40:47   Well, similar, because again, if I'm going to transport this, something that merely covers

00:40:54   the screen on the front is not doing the job of making this transportable.

00:40:59   The whole rest of this ungainly thing is still out there flopping around, right?

00:41:03   And that's one of the big, I think, restrictions and challenges on this whole design they've

00:41:08   gone with, of having the outside be a screen.

00:41:11   Again, look at every other VR headset.

00:41:13   The outside is just a flat piece of plastic with some sensors on it.

00:41:16   And Apple's like, "No, this is going to be a single giant piece of glass that'll show

00:41:20   some creepy version of your eyes through it."

00:41:22   And it's a bunch of trade-offs for sure.

00:41:25   And one of the trade-offs is, well, it's more expensive and bigger and much heavier and

00:41:29   everything else.

00:41:30   Another one of the trade-offs is that it becomes much harder to transport.

00:41:34   All right.

00:41:35   And then you get a free, for the low, low cost of $3,500 plus dollars, polishing cloth,

00:41:39   which is very exciting.

00:41:41   You get a battery, which is compulsory to use the device, a USB-C charge cable, and

00:41:47   a USB-C power adapter.

00:41:49   So that is what's in the box, which to be honest is not an insignificant amount of stuff.

00:41:54   I mean, that is a fair bit of stuff.

00:41:55   I saw some rumors and discussion, again, based on patent filings or whatever, of other possible

00:42:01   strap options, including...

00:42:03   So the straps that they show in their PR photos have that little, I don't know, little pod

00:42:09   that has the speakers in it that fires the sound down into your ears.

00:42:12   But of course, if you decided that you're going to use your AirPods or something with

00:42:16   it rather than using those speakers, you don't need those pods anymore.

00:42:20   So like we saw when this thing launched, these straps are actually made up of two portions.

00:42:24   One is kind of a stiff portion that connects to the headset, and two is the loose sort

00:42:29   of strappy thing that goes around your head that you could replace the stiff portions

00:42:33   with ones that don't have the speaker pods in them for a sleeker or lighter weight thing.

00:42:37   But it seems like that's not a thing that they're shipping, it was just something they

00:42:40   considered during the design.

00:42:41   - Yeah, overall, this is actually pretty well accessorized, it seems, right in the box.

00:42:47   And this is just one of the wonderful things of it being a brand new product line.

00:42:51   Like originally, the iPod came with the dock and the cable, all this other stuff, right?

00:42:56   And then as the iPod line went on, it became cheaper and cheaper, and there was a lot less

00:43:02   stuff in the box and more stuff that you had to buy separately.

00:43:05   Same with the iPhone.

00:43:06   The iPhone used to come with more stuff in the box than it does now.

00:43:09   - Like a charger, at least this comes with something you can charge it with.

00:43:12   - So at least right now, we're still in the really early part of this, and so they're

00:43:16   gonna give us all the accessories, but I bet in five years, whatever Vision line products

00:43:21   are out then, you're gonna see a lot less of this stuff coming with them.

00:43:24   - I mean, the most glaring one are the straps, 'cause it's like, okay, one of these straps

00:43:28   is probably going to quote unquote win, you know what I mean?

00:43:31   Like I know people's heads are shaped differently and everything, but them shipping both the

00:43:36   straps is kind of like, we couldn't figure out one strap that worked the best for everybody,

00:43:41   so here's two, good luck.

00:43:45   And obviously the one with the top strap should help a little bit with the weight, because

00:43:48   it literally goes over the top of your head rather than having to pinch the thing against

00:43:51   the front and back of your head to keep it from sliding downwards.

00:43:55   But they're still shipping the single one, so it's like, it's not even like, the thing

00:44:01   weighs the same no matter what.

00:44:03   Is the single strap one just for people like me with big noses who can support the weight

00:44:06   of this, but you really don't want the weight to be supported on your nose, so I don't understand.

00:44:10   The two straps being shipped here is kind of like, they're just throwing up their hands

00:44:14   and like, it's $3,500 and we can afford it and we couldn't figure it out.

00:44:18   I have to think that the correct strap is probably neither of these, it's something,

00:44:24   it's an evolution of one of them.

00:44:25   And I think having real people buy this thing and use it and complain about it, people with

00:44:30   different hairstyles and different size and shape heads and different tolerance for pinching

00:44:35   in different places and different size skulls, because again, you can get a different face

00:44:40   shield for this, but it doesn't come in different widths.

00:44:43   It doesn't even come in two different sizes like the Apple Watch.

00:44:45   It is the size it is, and they do the best they can to make it conform to your face,

00:44:49   but if you have a really, really wide head or really, really narrow head, there's only

00:44:53   so much you can do instead of with the strap.

00:44:55   So this is definitely sort of an experimental kind of like, let's see what sticks, here's

00:45:01   two straps, good luck.

00:45:03   But it also might just be that the last thing they want is for someone to dislike the product

00:45:09   based on some fairly avoidable comfort issue.

00:45:13   They're really putting themselves out there with this.

00:45:14   They're launching this whole new thing.

00:45:15   It's a massive risk, and you know there's gonna be a whole bunch of people who get it

00:45:19   and try to make YouTube videos about how much it sucks, whatever.

00:45:24   They're trying to cover their bases.

00:45:25   They're trying to make sure, we don't want anyone to go through the process of spending

00:45:30   $3,500 plus on this thing, going to the store, getting themselves fit for the shield, getting

00:45:36   the prescription optical inserts and all this other stuff.

00:45:38   This is quite a process to get this thing made for you and fit for you, only to then

00:45:43   discover, oh, it's kind of uncomfortable.

00:45:45   So that's probably why they're including both straps, like give people all the options.

00:45:49   - I mean, that's gonna happen no matter what though.

00:45:51   That's the thing about this, because they haven't, like how many people have ever worn

00:45:55   this in the entire world?

00:45:56   You could probably put them in a pretty small theater.

00:45:59   Not many people have ever used this, and now you're gonna sell a million of them in a year?

00:46:04   You're gonna very quickly find out, okay, this part of this strap pinches this percentage

00:46:08   of people, and the bands are too wide or too narrow or tilt down too much or not enough.

00:46:14   They could do all the testing they can internally, but you're only gonna find out once this,

00:46:18   and it's inevitable that it's gonna be uncomfortable.

00:46:21   I know from, again, from wearing glasses, glasses frames can be uncomfortable.

00:46:25   That's one of the main things that I use to choose my glasses frames, and also one of

00:46:28   the reasons I'm wearing glasses frames that are older than my children is because I find

00:46:33   a lot of glasses frames uncomfortable.

00:46:35   And yes, I know with glasses frames, you can bend them and put them into little hot beads

00:46:38   and try to get them all lined up and do all these things, but the combination of durability

00:46:42   and comfort and which frames work rest on your face with your nose and your ears and

00:46:48   everything else, it's a very personal thing, and it's extremely difficult to find something

00:46:53   that works, especially things that get strapped to your head.

00:46:55   Even shopping for things like ski goggles, which are kind of similar to this, and they

00:46:59   have the advantage of you probably wearing a hat to cushion the strap going around your

00:47:03   head.

00:47:04   So yeah, I think they're probably doing the best they can, but I look at all these straps

00:47:07   and I'm like, "These cannot be the final form."

00:47:09   I mean, obviously the real solution to this problem is make the headset smaller and lighter,

00:47:14   and I hope they do that, but judging by their love of that stupid aluminum frame and curved

00:47:18   glass front, I'm not sure what kind of progress they're gonna make on that in the next year

00:47:21   or two.

00:47:22   I bet the front screen is the first thing to go in future revisions of this product.

00:47:27   On a cheap model, yeah.

00:47:28   Yeah, I'm sure there's going to be a Vision Air or something like that.

00:47:31   They can just put stickers there with eyeballs on them.

00:47:33   Yeah, and it'll be...

00:47:35   Because aluminum is much lighter than glass, so if the front of it becomes mostly a flat

00:47:40   piece of aluminum with some cameras on it or whatever, that would actually be a significant

00:47:45   weight savings.

00:47:46   They should really make it out of plastic.

00:47:47   I think there's more of an excuse to use the AirPods Max because headphones at least get

00:47:51   banged around and your head could hit something sideways, but honestly, this thing, what is

00:47:54   this going to be banging into?

00:47:55   Hopefully nothing, especially since they always want you to be seated while you're using it.

00:47:58   They never show you up and playing Beat Saber.

00:48:01   But that's during use.

00:48:02   You still got to get it places if it ever leaves your house.

00:48:04   Just put it in that little cover.

00:48:06   That'll totally protect you.

00:48:08   Honestly, Jon, you're right.

00:48:11   Both the AirPods Max and the Vision Pro should probably be made of more plastic than they

00:48:16   are because that would make them both lighter and that would significantly improve comfort.

00:48:19   That's why I keep hoping that Apple will get into carbon fiber or something.

00:48:22   I know it's not feasible.

00:48:23   We're always looking for, "How about something that's lighter and durable but is not metal

00:48:28   and carbon fiber fulfills those things except it's extremely expensive and annoying to manufacture

00:48:33   and has also some other advantages?"

00:48:35   But if you're going to stubbornly refuse to do plastic, is there some other material that

00:48:40   you feel okay about using?

00:48:41   I don't know.

00:48:42   Magnesium?

00:48:43   Titanium.

00:48:44   Yeah, I guess.

00:48:45   Yeah, we'll see.

00:48:46   I think, keep in mind too, one of the major reasons they would want to save weight is

00:48:50   to then immediately spend it by putting the battery inside the headset.

00:48:53   Oh, no.

00:48:54   They don't want to do that.

00:48:55   They don't want to do that but I think they need to do that at some point.

00:48:59   Yeah.

00:49:00   What the other people do is they put the battery behind your head to try to balance the weight

00:49:04   in the front but it's still weight.

00:49:06   It's not great.

00:49:07   Well, even that, the Quest 2 ... Yeah, because now Adam got a Quest 3 for Christmas so now

00:49:13   I have some experience seeing both of them around the house.

00:49:17   All of those headsets have internal batteries to the front of the headset also but they

00:49:21   now offer extended battery head straps that have more battery on the back of the head.

00:49:27   I can see Apple doing something like that down the road maybe but I think step one is

00:49:32   get the price down of this product and then step two is get the battery inside of it.

00:49:36   And so I think any advances they're going to have and any changes they make to eliminate

00:49:40   weight or size should be spent then going towards those goals.

00:49:44   Yeah, maybe.

00:49:45   I'll have to see what this battery is like in real life to see what kind of weight are

00:49:48   we talking about because we know the battery doesn't last very long as it is.

00:49:51   So I think it should sound like a ... We talked about the iPhone MagSafe backpack as a magnetically

00:50:00   attached backpack strap.

00:50:02   Imagine an actual backpack that a human could wear with two straps and had a huge battery

00:50:07   in it and you could be in your Vision Pro for 48 hours.

00:50:09   Oh, someone will definitely sell that I'm sure.

00:50:11   It'd be very healthy.

00:50:12   Talk about a stinky cushion.

00:50:15   Yeah.

00:50:16   Wow.

00:50:17   Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:50:18   All right.

00:50:19   So Apple also noted that the Vision Pro is designed with the environment in mind with

00:50:22   100% recycled rare earth metals ... Excuse me, rare earth elements in all magnets and

00:50:27   100% recycled tin, soldering and gold plating in multiple printed circuit boards.

00:50:32   The frame and battery enclosure contain 100% recycled aluminum and the light seal and solo

00:50:36   knit band are each made with over 70% recycled yarn.

00:50:40   The Vision Pro meets Apple's high standards for energy efficiency and is free of mercury,

00:50:44   brominated ... I hope I pronounced that right ... flame retardants, PVC and beryllium.

00:50:49   The packaging is 100% fiber based, bringing Apple closer to its goal of eliminating plastics

00:50:53   in all packaging by 2025.

00:50:56   Kudos to them.

00:50:57   Yeah, pretty cool.

00:50:58   Yeah, they've made pretty good effort here.

00:50:59   Like we talked about the watch as like the one product that was totally carbon neutral

00:51:02   and everything.

00:51:03   And you can tell like there are some parts of it that they still couldn't do.

00:51:08   Not everything is 100% recycled, but they're trying as hard as they can here to use recycled

00:51:13   materials in all the places where they can, which is good.

00:51:15   It's interesting that the solo knit band is 70% recycled, but the double loop band, no

00:51:22   recycled stuff.

00:51:23   Well, I'm sure some of it ... Well, I would assume, I shouldn't say I'm sure.

00:51:26   They would have listed it.

00:51:27   Yeah, but if it was only like 10%, I don't think they would have listed it.

00:51:30   I mean, it kind of makes me think that the original plan was, "Hey, this one strap is

00:51:34   going to work for everybody."

00:51:35   And they eventually learned late in the game, as in two years ago, "I know we thought this

00:51:41   was going to be the strap."

00:51:42   Because if you look at these two straps, look at the one they show in all the PR things,

00:51:45   the single one with the big catcher's mitt, and then look at the double strap.

00:51:48   The double strap is like, "Is that a prototype?"

00:51:51   Or is that the final ... It doesn't have that Apple look.

00:51:55   And it would make sense that they spent all this time making sure they could make what

00:51:58   was going to be the one and only strap.

00:52:00   "Can we manufacture that with 70% recycled yarn?"

00:52:03   And then, like I said, late in the game, as in a year or two ago, they said, "We need

00:52:08   another strap.

00:52:09   This one doesn't work for enough people.

00:52:10   Can we slap some of the other real fast?

00:52:11   Fine, but we can't do the recycled stuff.

00:52:13   Fine, just ship it."

00:52:14   Fun.

00:52:15   All right, so we also got some more Vision Pro info.

00:52:18   The Vision Pro ... This is from Bloomberg.

00:52:19   "Will be equipped with 16 gigs of RAM, the same amount of memory that was included in

00:52:23   the Vision Pro development kits distributed by Apple last year."

00:52:25   Wish I could have gotten one of those.

00:52:28   Germin says that, "YouTubers and members of the media selected for reviews will meet with

00:52:32   Apple on January 16th for a hands-on experience with a follow-up meeting to take place on

00:52:37   the 23rd to go over the device's features a second time.

00:52:40   Reviews are set to be published at the end of January."

00:52:42   I will be the canary in the coal mine and say, "I did not get invited to this."

00:52:48   I also did not get invited to this.

00:52:49   So, Jon, you're going to go?

00:52:51   No, but the interesting thing about this is that ... And they've done this with Vision

00:52:55   Pro already.

00:52:56   So, Gruber, for example, saw it when it was launched, and then they also called him back

00:53:01   to have him look at his photos and the spatial video thing and stuff.

00:53:05   A bunch of people have done that, right?

00:53:07   The whole idea of, "We're going to have media see this before everyone else," fine, that's

00:53:12   normal.

00:53:13   But having them come back twice, I think, is especially for this product, because they're

00:53:16   going to meet with them on the 16th and give them a hands-on experience, and I'm assuming

00:53:21   they're going to send them home with devices, and then they'll come back on the 23rd.

00:53:27   And I think coming back on the 23rd is where they're going to hear from the people who

00:53:30   said, "I tried to use this, but it's hurting my head here, and this is fogging up, and

00:53:34   blah, blah, blah, and I think I got the wrong prescription," because that's the second for

00:53:37   Apple to get good reviews, essentially.

00:53:39   That's a chance for them to address the concerns that are only going to come up when the people

00:53:43   take these things home and try to actually use them for extended periods of time for

00:53:46   real work.

00:53:47   And I feel like that January 23rd thing is essentially the final fitting.

00:53:52   "Okay, how did this work for you?

00:53:54   Did we give you the right face shield thing, or do you need a different one?

00:53:58   Did that strap work for you?

00:53:59   Which strap did you like better?

00:54:01   Tell us more about why," all of that.

00:54:04   That is really doing everything they can so that 50% of the first-waiver reviews isn't

00:54:10   just, "Eh, it was a little uncomfortable because I don't think it fit me right, but oh well,

00:54:13   the 23rd is a chance for Apple to fix that and say, 'Okay, you did pick the wrong face

00:54:17   shield.

00:54:18   Try this one.

00:54:19   Try the bigger one.

00:54:20   Try the smaller one.'"

00:54:21   I'm guessing the 16th is a preview because pre-orders open a few days after that, and

00:54:25   they want people to talk about them so that people will pre-order it, and then I'm guessing

00:54:29   no one gets review hardware until the 23rd.

00:54:31   Maybe.

00:54:32   I mean, if what I said is not what they're doing, it's what they should be doing.

00:54:35   Well, they should be inviting us.

00:54:37   Right.

00:54:38   Well, no, but honestly, I think having a second round where you hear people's complaints is

00:54:44   so much more important.

00:54:45   If they have complaints about software or bugs, you can't fix that, right?

00:54:49   But if it's about complaints about fit, it's like, "You can fix that.

00:54:52   We have different face shields.

00:54:53   I can give you suggestions on the strap.

00:54:56   Tell me what problems you were having.

00:54:57   Maybe we had them too.

00:54:58   We can help you with them."

00:54:59   It's not like when people get an early thing and there's a bunch of bugs in it, what are

00:55:04   the marketing people going to do?

00:55:05   They're like, "Oh, we can't fix that software before this launches, so just oh well."

00:55:09   All right.

00:55:10   And then Apple released an ad for the Vision Pro, which they call Get Ready.

00:55:17   And the general gist, it's only 30 seconds.

00:55:20   And if I were to paint you a word picture, it's basically a bunch of movie characters

00:55:24   either putting on helmets or face masks or things over their eyes.

00:55:29   And I had forgotten about this, but a lot of people pointed out that this is very much

00:55:33   in the vein of the Hello iPhone ad, which was a bunch of people answering the phone

00:55:37   from movies and saying hello, how can I help you, what's up, etc., etc.

00:55:42   And very, very spiritually similar between the two.

00:55:45   I thought it was a good ad.

00:55:47   It's not making me run up and get ready to order a Vision Pro immediately, but it was

00:55:51   a good ad.

00:55:52   The thing I like about the original iPhone ad is the only people who remember that ad

00:55:59   were people who were paying attention to the iPhone when it was launched, because that

00:56:03   was the launch ad for the original iPhone.

00:56:06   And that means it was just a bunch of Apple nerds, because everyone else was like, oh,

00:56:09   Apple came out with the phone, whatever, but people weren't that interested in the iPhone

00:56:13   anymore than they were interested in the Mac or anything else at that stage.

00:56:16   I guess the iPod was out there.

00:56:18   Disagree.

00:56:20   That's not how I remember it at all.

00:56:21   No, I know there was lots of hype around the iPhone, but look at how well it sold in the

00:56:26   first year, and it's not because they couldn't make enough of them.

00:56:29   People were not that jazzed to get an iPhone.

00:56:31   It's like, that's an Apple thing, I like my iPod, but I also like my current cell phone

00:56:35   and it'll be fine or whatever.

00:56:36   I strongly disagree.

00:56:37   I don't remember it that way either.

00:56:38   Yeah, I don't remember it that way.

00:56:39   Well, Casey didn't even remember the ad, and he is an Apple nerd.

00:56:42   I think if you ask the average person on the street, do you remember the original iPhone

00:56:45   ad, and then ask the same question of do you remember the original Mac ad, you're going

00:56:50   to get very different answers.

00:56:51   That's not a fair comparison at all.

00:56:53   Why not?

00:56:54   Because, first of all, the Mac ad was during the Super Bowl, and I don't recall when the

00:56:59   Hello Ad was.

00:57:00   I think the Hello Ad did get a lot of airplay, but I think people are like, yeah, that's

00:57:04   that Apple phone thing anyway.

00:57:05   No, I remember the time span from January to June.

00:57:09   So January was the announcement, and then it was available in June.

00:57:12   That time span, everyone was buzzing about the iPhone for six months.

00:57:17   Everyone in our world, yes.

00:57:18   No, I disagree.

00:57:19   It was mainstream.

00:57:20   It was everywhere.

00:57:22   Everyone was buzzing about it for six months straight.

00:57:24   But they didn't buy it when it came out because it was too expensive and who wants an Apple

00:57:27   phone?

00:57:28   No, no, a lot of it was waiting until your contract was up on your current phone or whatever,

00:57:32   because again, that was a very contract-based buying period.

00:57:35   Everybody had one or two year contracts on their phones.

00:57:38   And also, AT&T sucked at the time.

00:57:41   In America anyway, you had to have it on AT&T.

00:57:44   I remember that was not going to happen for years.

00:57:49   For my own purposes, I didn't want to do that.

00:57:52   And then eventually I decided I'd lusted after and wanted the iPhone so badly that I'd be

00:57:56   willing to try AT&T.

00:57:57   And then I had to sell Aaron on it because we were on a joint plan.

00:58:00   Why'd you have to sell Aaron on it?

00:58:03   Everybody loves the iPhone.

00:58:04   The level of hype it had and buzz around mainstream audiences was way bigger than what the Vision

00:58:09   Pro has now.

00:58:10   Oh, I agree.

00:58:11   I think they're both similar.

00:58:13   I think you're misremembering the iPhone because the iPhone is now the iPhone.

00:58:16   But back then it was like Apple's trying to do a phone and people aren't sure how well

00:58:19   it's going to do.

00:58:20   But anyway, it's coming out.

00:58:21   Nerds are excited about it and it's interesting, but it's also just kind of a curiosity and

00:58:25   off in the corner because the real cell phone market is Nokia or whatever.

00:58:28   It took so long to turn people.

00:58:30   Just look at the sales figures.

00:58:31   Look at the sales chart for the iPhone.

00:58:32   No, but you're misconstruing two different things.

00:58:35   The iPhone was crippled when it was new, which at first sounds like I'm agreeing with you.

00:58:40   But so is the Vision Pro.

00:58:41   It's $3,500.

00:58:42   You can't do tons of things you can't do with it.

00:58:44   It's like it'll run iPad apps.

00:58:46   No, a lot of people are saying with the Vision Pro, I don't even see why I would want that.

00:58:49   Whereas the original iPhone, it was like, okay, next time I get a new renewal on my

00:58:54   contract slash when it comes to my carrier, I'm jumping on that.

00:58:58   Bingo.

00:58:59   Bingo.

00:59:00   I think you had to look at the sales number and see that that's not the way it played

00:59:04   out.

00:59:05   I think you're, you're a misremembering history and thinking the iPhone was always a hit that

00:59:07   everybody wanted and it wasn't.

00:59:09   It took a while to convince people.

00:59:10   It was mostly a curiosity to add lots of hype.

00:59:12   And I think that's exactly like the Vision Pro.

00:59:14   It's a curiosity that has lots of hype.

00:59:16   Will the Vision Pro prove itself like the iPhone?

00:59:18   We'll see.

00:59:19   I think we are all perhaps misremembering because I could not disagree more with your

00:59:23   characterization of what it was like in 2007.

00:59:25   And especially, even if I were to take your incorrect memory as fact, I would say that

00:59:33   the moment anyone put their hands on a smartphone, immediately it clicked.

00:59:37   Because I remember...

00:59:38   But they hadn't when the ad aired.

00:59:39   That's my whole point.

00:59:40   It was skepticism.

00:59:41   Skepticism about the iPhone.

00:59:43   Well, but again, I mean, yes, I think there was a degree of skepticism, probably more

00:59:47   than I'm giving it credit for, but certainly a lot less than I think you are remembering.

00:59:52   I don't think people were near as skeptical as you seem to believe they were.

00:59:56   But even on top of that, I think I agree with Marco that it was more about, "Wow, that sounds

01:00:01   cool, but A, I've got another year and a half left on this phone.

01:00:04   B, it is very expensive.

01:00:06   And C, there's no friggin' way I'm getting on Singular or AT&T or what have you because

01:00:11   they suck."

01:00:12   And I mean, I cannot overstate at the time.

01:00:15   Now it's very different.

01:00:16   In fact, I would say even a few years into the iPhone, it was very different.

01:00:19   But at the time, Singular was, and AT&T both, were terrible.

01:00:24   God, were they terrible.

01:00:25   That's the reason people weren't as interested.

01:00:27   Once they heard it was AT&T only or Singular only or whatever, it's just like, "Oh, it's

01:00:32   a curiosity," whatever.

01:00:33   Everyone in the Apple world was insanely hyped about it.

01:00:36   Anyone who had touched it loved it.

01:00:38   Tech nerds were totally into it.

01:00:39   But look at the sales.

01:00:41   Look, two years later, people's contracts drop.

01:00:43   It's 2009.

01:00:44   Wow, look at those sales.

01:00:45   They're better than they were in 2007, but they're nothing like what they would become.

01:00:48   No one's arguing that it sold massively the first year.

01:00:52   We're not saying that.

01:00:53   What we're saying is that there is huge buzz.

01:00:55   Well, that's what I'm saying.

01:00:57   And it's not because people were like, "Oh, I want to get one the second I can."

01:01:00   They could, and they didn't.

01:01:01   They chose not to buy it.

01:01:02   Right, because of other circumstances.

01:01:03   I don't think it was because they were unconvinced.

01:01:04   It was because of other circumstances around it.

01:01:07   Yeah, I don't think it's like, "Oh, I wish I had one, but they're not on my network."

01:01:10   I know that's exactly what it was for me.

01:01:12   That was a huge part of it.

01:01:13   What are you talking about, John?

01:01:14   That was a massive part of it.

01:01:16   That's why you could see the sales spike every time they would add a new major carrier.

01:01:20   The sales spike for this thing was the iPhone 6 when they finally made a big phone.

01:01:24   Oh my God.

01:01:25   No.

01:01:26   Anyway, the point is when that ad aired, people were not like, "Oh, I can't wait to get an

01:01:29   iPhone."

01:01:30   Nerds were like that, but even among nerds, not everyone got one because they were expensive

01:01:34   and it was AT&T only.

01:01:35   So the ad aired and people were not like, "Oh my God, it's that phone.

01:01:38   Everyone's going to get it."

01:01:39   Because everyone didn't get it.

01:01:40   Look at the first year sales numbers.

01:01:41   Look at the second year sales numbers.

01:01:42   When the ad came, people were not dying to get it and unlike the original Mac ad, they

01:01:47   weren't intrigued by a mysterious thing they didn't know anything about because they'd

01:01:50   already seen the introduction.

01:01:51   I still think you're 100% wrong, but the Vision Pro does not have anywhere near the level

01:01:57   of mainstream interest and hype as the iPhone did.

01:02:00   Concur.

01:02:01   I think it's going to be a much slower launch and given manufacturing and supply realities,

01:02:06   that's probably fine.

01:02:08   I saw a few people on Maston over the last couple of days refer to it almost like launching

01:02:13   a dev kit as a product.

01:02:15   That's actually a pretty good analogy because what we're going to see over the next year

01:02:20   with the Vision Pro is basically very low sales numbers.

01:02:24   It's a budding market.

01:02:26   The initial buyers are going to be largely early gadget adopters at the high end of the

01:02:30   market and then developers and people who are getting it for some kind of testing or

01:02:35   development role.

01:02:36   We're going to see the app and content market probably very slowly grow over time.

01:02:42   It really is kind of like a tech preview that they're selling.

01:02:45   It's so early still and the mainstream consumers I think are going to have relatively little

01:02:51   interest in jumping on this yet.

01:02:54   The price obviously is a massive thing holding it back.

01:02:58   All the different physical limitations and awkwardness of it I think are going to keep

01:03:02   it small for a while.

01:03:05   It doesn't need more than that right now just because they can't make more of them anyway.

01:03:11   It's going to be a huge hit.

01:03:12   It's going to sell out.

01:03:13   It's going to be back ordered.

01:03:14   I'm going to try to order one on day one.

01:03:15   I think it's going to be very difficult to actually get early delivery on it.

01:03:19   I'm sure it's going to be one of those things where you refresh the Apple Store app over

01:03:23   and over again until the time comes around and then all of a sudden it's like, "Oh, 12

01:03:27   weeks out, 18 weeks out, 24 weeks out."

01:03:28   It's going to be that kind of thing.

01:03:30   There is no comparison to the level of consumer excitement for the Vision Pro compared to

01:03:36   the iPhone.

01:03:37   I think it's pretty good comparison.

01:03:38   But anyway, my point with this ad thing-

01:03:39   Oh, my word, Jon.

01:03:40   Can everyone tell him how wrong he is, please?

01:03:43   Please write him right now and tell him how wrong he is.

01:03:45   Don't ask for people to write in because you're not going to like what they say.

01:03:48   Anyway-

01:03:49   Oh, oh, that's fire.

01:03:50   Wow.

01:03:51   People remember because people remember.

01:03:52   So do we.

01:03:53   People who are not in the Apple tech nerd sphere remember Apple people being excited about

01:03:57   the phone but them going, "Yeah, whatever.

01:03:58   I'll check it out later."

01:03:59   Anyway, my point is when people see this ad, A, they're not going to remember the Hello

01:04:04   ad just like you didn't, Casey, and you were kind of into Apple stuff at that point.

01:04:08   They're not going to remember the ad that's echoing.

01:04:11   I did.

01:04:12   It seemed ridiculous to me that anyone who was in the Apple world would not remember

01:04:15   it but experience has shown that talking to people that lots of people didn't remember

01:04:18   it.

01:04:19   So they're not going to remember the Hello ad.

01:04:20   When someone sees this ad on TV, they're going to be like, "What is this?"

01:04:23   They're going to say to themselves, "Oh, yeah, it's that Apple headset thing I heard about,"

01:04:26   and then they're going to forget about it.

01:04:28   Then in 15 years, when we say, "Hey, do you remember the launch ad for Apple Vision Pro?"

01:04:33   They're going to be like, "No."

01:04:34   "Oh, it was just like the launch ad for the iPhone."

01:04:36   You're like, "The launch ad for the iPhone?

01:04:38   The what?"

01:04:39   Nobody's going to remember these things because it's not a proven product yet.

01:04:43   That's the whole point.

01:04:45   People don't have it.

01:04:46   People haven't used it.

01:04:47   It's not a proven product.

01:04:48   So when you put out an ad like this, it's memorable to people like us because we're

01:04:51   super hyped about it because we're super big Apple followers.

01:04:54   But unless it is a big artistic statement or a tease that everyone was curious about,

01:04:59   like the 1984 ad, it's not going to stick in popular culture's mind.

01:05:03   So that's why I think this ad is a good match with the iPhone ad to basically be a copy

01:05:09   of the same ad, but saying, "Instead of people and movies picking up phones, it will be people

01:05:12   and movies putting things over their eyeballs."

01:05:14   All I'm saying is kudos to Apple because I think you appropriately calibrated this ad

01:05:20   to be a match for the iPhone.

01:05:21   Of course, Apple's hope is, "Just like the iPhone, this is going to be a huge hit."

01:05:25   And we'll see about that.

01:05:27   But the parallels are obvious to me, both in the ads and in my expected reception of

01:05:33   the device.

01:05:34   I don't know.

01:05:35   We'll see.

01:05:36   I don't know anyone personally that is amused by the Vision Pro that isn't a tech nerd,

01:05:45   like a true up and down tech nerd.

01:05:48   And I think a lot of people are casually interested, and I think amongst my peer group, for example,

01:05:53   I think the assumption is I will probably get one amongst these people.

01:05:56   And I'd actually like to talk to you two about that in a minute.

01:05:58   But the assumption is I'll get one, and I think every single one of them will, figuratively

01:06:02   speaking, line up to try it.

01:06:05   But I don't think that any of them are even for a fleeting moment considering buying one.

01:06:11   I think they are at most like, "Oh, I wonder what that's like to use."

01:06:15   It's way more expensive than the iPhone was, obviously.

01:06:18   And talking about the dev kit aspect of it, all VR headsets, all things that you strap

01:06:23   to your head that put screens in front of your eyeballs, they all look like and essentially

01:06:28   behave like, not dev kits, but like things that are tech nerdy in a way that is beyond

01:06:36   normal, what a normal person expects to endure.

01:06:39   Right?

01:06:40   I mean, it was used in jokes for movies for ages.

01:06:43   Oh, you put these big headset on with screens in front of your eyeballs.

01:06:46   And yes, if people do VR gaming videos and that is kind of nerdy.

01:06:51   Anything this big, a big ski goggly screen thing that goes in your eyeballs has not penetrated

01:06:56   to the point where like AirPods, they started off weird and then very quickly, "Oh, everyone

01:07:00   just wears AirPods.

01:07:01   It's fine."

01:07:02   Again, Apple hopes that's what will happen with this, but at $3,500 it's not going to

01:07:06   happen, right?

01:07:07   But right now, this entire product category is a weird thing that tech people do.

01:07:13   It has not graduated to a thing that everybody does or a thing that normal people do.

01:07:19   And I'm not sure this is the product that's going to put it over that line, but certainly

01:07:22   at the point now when it hasn't even launched, everyone is just looking askance at this entire

01:07:26   product category of like, "Remind me again why I'd want to strap that to my face?"

01:07:31   Because they haven't tried it.

01:07:32   So Apple hasn't had a chance to prove to them why they'd want to.

01:07:36   And then the people who do use them are like, "Okay, well, can I play my favorite VR game

01:07:40   on it?"

01:07:41   "No."

01:07:42   "Okay, meta whatever."

01:07:43   No.

01:07:44   I'm very surprised that they didn't do some sort of keynote to just remind us why we should

01:07:49   be excited about this.

01:07:51   And this ad, the Get Ready ad, I don't debate that it's a good ad, but it did not make me

01:07:56   think, "Yes, I can't wait to do blank in my Vision Pro."

01:08:01   Yeah, because it's for people who are already anticipating it.

01:08:03   Well, I wonder if they're kind of holding back a little bit on how hard they pushed

01:08:08   this to consumers yet because they know it's kind of a tough sell to most consumers right

01:08:13   now.

01:08:14   Yeah, and it gives them, like I said, it gives them breathing room to work out the issues.

01:08:19   Maybe they still got the straps wrong.

01:08:21   Maybe there's an issue with, again, condensation or breathability or something.

01:08:25   Whatever the first year, like stories about the design screw-ups they did or whatever,

01:08:29   don't overhype it at this point.

01:08:32   Under promise, over deliver, have this be a year where you work out the kinks, figure

01:08:36   out what works and what doesn't, figure out what people want to use it for, see what this

01:08:41   deal is with the app ecosystem.

01:08:43   Apple has the breathing room to just spend this year doing that, which is why an ad that

01:08:48   is aimed at people who already are anticipating this is good.

01:08:51   It'll get those people excited.

01:08:52   It'll let them, it'll have an echo of the other ad, but it's not overhyping it to people

01:08:57   who don't even know what it is.

01:08:58   I think they will show this during big football games, however, most people will not pay any

01:09:02   attention to it.

01:09:03   Or if they know anything, I'll be like, "Oh yeah, I heard about that.

01:09:05   It's a thing.

01:09:06   I'm not sure."

01:09:07   But it's not like, "Apple Vision Pro will change the way you live your life."

01:09:10   It's not saying that in that language to regular people.

01:09:13   It's not making that promise at all.

01:09:14   It doesn't even show the product, right?

01:09:15   Or maybe at the very end it does, I guess.

01:09:18   It's definitely kind of an ad for the people who are already sold.

01:09:23   I think too, the initial batch of reviews is probably going to be all over the place.

01:09:28   They're not going to all be universally positive, because we know, like gadget reviewers, tech

01:09:32   reviewers, tech people on YouTube, we know price is super important to those markets.

01:09:39   And anytime somebody releases something that's very expensive in a market, that's the headlining

01:09:44   theme of all the reviews.

01:09:46   "Well, it's nice, but it's really expensive."

01:09:49   And so we're going to keep hearing that.

01:09:51   That's going to be most of the reviews early on.

01:09:53   "Okay, I tried it.

01:09:55   It's cool, but it's really expensive."

01:09:58   That's accurate.

01:09:59   It is.

01:10:00   So again, that's why I think they're going to actually try to low-play it, because they

01:10:06   don't want every consumer in the world to get the impression this is just some expensive

01:10:11   thing they don't need.

01:10:13   So again, I think they're going to play it a little more slowly, give it time to develop

01:10:18   its ecosystem, which is not going to happen in the next three weeks.

01:10:22   Just give it time to develop its ecosystem over a year, maybe more.

01:10:26   Give it time for them to maybe get a version two out there that can maybe get a little

01:10:28   bit lower in price, and then we'll start seeing them pushing it harder and harder over time.

01:10:33   But I think it's going to be a slow ramp up to that level of promotion.

01:10:38   And I know we're getting off on a tangent here.

01:10:39   I know we've talked about this in the past, but as we approach launch day and as I see

01:10:45   developers who are submitting their apps or thinking of submitting their apps, I'm getting

01:10:50   more and more of a terrible feeling about what the state of the app ecosystem is going

01:10:54   to be.

01:10:55   "Oh, it's going to be bad."

01:10:58   And I was thinking about this the other day.

01:10:59   I had mistakenly thought for a moment in my mind, "Oh, people can just use their Macs

01:11:04   too, because it's got that screen, the thing where you can see your Mac screen inside the

01:11:07   thing."

01:11:08   But the thing I had in my mind was like, this product would almost be better sold as a display

01:11:16   for a Mac or as a, or like you'd have a Mac built into it, like a little, like the motherboard

01:11:20   of a MacBook Pro, like a little container with the battery or whatever.

01:11:26   Like the Mac apps, like the Mac apps that need a really big screen that have multiple

01:11:30   windows and stuff like that.

01:11:33   That is actually the best use case for this with no software until and unless an app ecosystem

01:11:39   can build up around it.

01:11:40   And I know that instead they're saying, "Well, it's iPad apps.

01:11:42   You can run your iPad apps on it if they allow you to do it, blah, blah, blah."

01:11:45   But iPad apps seem to me, I don't know, like I've never had a dream of this iPad app would

01:11:51   be better if I could have it on a bigger screen or if I could have multiple copies of, because

01:11:57   they're just so focused on a single screen and yeah, you've got slide over and split

01:12:00   view and stuff like that.

01:12:01   But Mac apps are the ones that you want to have a million different windows and big things

01:12:04   out in front of you and everything like that.

01:12:06   But this is not a Mac and it's trying to be its own platform.

01:12:10   And in the meantime, it's like, well, I can run some iPad apps if you want.

01:12:13   And just that first year, like, especially with Apple's general inability to foster a

01:12:18   healthy app ecosystem on anything except for a device they sell billions of copies of,

01:12:23   makes me worry a lot about not so much the hardware and does it fit on people's faces

01:12:28   and everything like that, because that is going to be a problem, but that can be worked

01:12:30   out.

01:12:31   But like once all that's worked out, what do I see inside this thing?

01:12:34   What software do I want to use inside it?

01:12:36   And I keep thinking Mac software, Mac software would work well in there.

01:12:40   It's the next version of this could be the best screen you've ever had for your Mac,

01:12:45   really complicated, lots of windows using a mouse and keyboard in front of you that

01:12:49   you can see because you can see your keyboard through the transparency mode thing, or you

01:12:53   can touch type or whatever.

01:12:54   Like, I don't know, maybe I'm entirely wrong considering I've never used one of these things,

01:12:57   but I'm really worried about what's going to be inside that headset.

01:13:01   And you know, and if it's a $3,500 really good movie viewer, then it's kind of like

01:13:05   me buying the OLED iPad to watch TV on it.

01:13:08   I mean, it's a use case, but I'm not sure it's going to be that common.

01:13:12   I would suggest don't preset expectations in your mind too much beforehand about how

01:13:20   you might use this device before you've actually used one.

01:13:23   I think it will surprise you in a few ways.

01:13:26   I mean, I would love to watch TV shows on it, but $3,500 is a lot.

01:13:30   Yeah, but you know, I frankly, I don't see that Mac use case being that big of a use case.

01:13:37   I mean, I don't mean the one that they're shipping, which is like screen sharing with

01:13:40   the Mac.

01:13:41   I mean, I don't see apps running on the headset.

01:13:43   No, yeah, I know.

01:13:44   Yeah.

01:13:45   And presumably, you know, I can imagine a future version of that feature where Mac windows

01:13:50   actually get broken out and can free float in the space.

01:13:53   Like maybe I'm just describing, I don't mean like Mac windows with like the stoplight buttons

01:13:58   and all that stuff floating in front of you.

01:13:59   I mean, like what somebody said, Mac style apps, you know what I mean?

01:14:03   Like the correct donor, the correct donor platform for apps on the vision pro is not

01:14:09   the iPad, but it's instead the Mac.

01:14:11   So that it just because the limitations of iPad applications, like the fact that they

01:14:15   don't even have the concept of windows vision pro has windows.

01:14:18   I know they're not quite windows, but like it has individual floating things.

01:14:21   That's its whole deal.

01:14:22   It's got the ornaments and separate accessory windows and you don't have to lay things on

01:14:25   top of each other.

01:14:26   You can just put it next to it cause you can turn your head a little bit and there's more

01:14:28   crap over there.

01:14:30   That's a Mac paradigm.

01:14:31   Well, iPad doesn't work like that.

01:14:32   So I'm thinking like native vision pro apps that are essentially vision, proified versions

01:14:37   of the Mac apps, not vision, proified versions of the iPad apps.

01:14:41   But again, I haven't used either one of these things, so I'm just speculating.

01:14:44   I think you'll be surprised like when, when this comes out, when you do at some point

01:14:48   somehow use one, I think you'll be surprised.

01:14:51   And so again, like just, I strongly urge people like don't make too many assumptions about

01:14:57   how you might use this until you have a chance to actually use one.

01:15:01   And if that means that you can't justify paying $3,500 for it upfront without knowing quite

01:15:06   how you'll use it, that's understandable.

01:15:08   You probably shouldn't jump on the preorder then.

01:15:11   Leave more room for me please.

01:15:13   But you know, it's a very different device and paradigm than most people have ever used

01:15:19   before.

01:15:20   So, you know, like, like when the Apple watch came out or especially before anybody had

01:15:24   actually used it, you know, when it was announced, everyone was, was kind of assuming they would

01:15:28   use the Apple watch much like a tiny iPhone.

01:15:31   And then we got the Apple watch and we, and anybody who tried that was very quickly, just

01:15:36   out of that notion because it was a terrible tiny iPhone, but it was really great for other

01:15:40   things.

01:15:41   People thought the iPad was basically a giant iPhone and they would use it just like a giant

01:15:45   iPhone.

01:15:46   Well, I mean, you kind of can, but it's better if you use it like an iPad, it's kind of its

01:15:49   own thing.

01:15:50   You know, even like the Apple TV, when the Apple TV, the one with apps, you know, the

01:15:55   whatever generation that was with that added the apps, when that was first announced and

01:15:58   shown off, everyone's like, "Hmm, maybe I'll do some computing on my TV."

01:16:01   And that didn't really pan out that way.

01:16:04   Instead we do other things with it.

01:16:06   This is going to be the same kind of thing.

01:16:08   We are trying to project onto it the paradigms we already know from devices we already have

01:16:14   and have used and saying, "Okay, well, I'm going to use this like a giant Mac."

01:16:18   It's like, "Well, you might, but probably not.

01:16:21   There's probably going to be other ways you use it that are, that are like it.

01:16:24   They're, you know, you're going to use it like you're going to use a vision pro.

01:16:27   You're not going to use it like any of the, any of the platforms because it's very different

01:16:31   from all the other platforms in so many different ways."

01:16:33   So don't go into it saying like, "Okay, well, I can justify this because it'll be like a

01:16:38   really big monitor."

01:16:39   And it's like, "Yeah, well, I mean, maybe you might do that, but go in with a more open

01:16:43   mind."

01:16:44   It might go a different direction for you.

01:16:46   And until everyone has these and you can try them and you can see that you can see all

01:16:50   the video reviews, you can see what kind of apps come out for it and everything.

01:16:53   Don't make too many assumptions early on.

01:16:55   I mean, that's, that's the whole thing.

01:16:57   Apple needs to provide, get enough people to write applications that are for this.

01:17:02   But I'm saying in the meantime, in the meantime, Apple's stopgap is in the meantime, people

01:17:06   can use iPad apps.

01:17:07   Like they're in their own, in their announcement, which I think maybe we'll get to if we keep

01:17:10   going here.

01:17:11   So like, "Oh, it has a million apps."

01:17:12   What they mean is a million people have said, "Yes, you can run my iPad apps on your thing."

01:17:17   I'm assuming like, because how do they know how many apps?

01:17:19   So they just, they just opened up submissions the same day they put out their press release.

01:17:22   We haven't even opened submissions for the, for the vision pro app store yet, but we know

01:17:25   there'll be a million apps.

01:17:26   Why?

01:17:27   Those are iPad apps.

01:17:28   That's their stopgap.

01:17:29   That's their way of like, you get this, what can I run out besides the built-in apps?

01:17:32   Well, you got a million iPad apps that you can run, and that's not what we want you to

01:17:36   do with it, but it's something until those apps start shipping.

01:17:40   So it's up to Apple to foster an ecosystem that makes people make actual native vision

01:17:44   pro apps.

01:17:45   So what I'm saying is I think the correct donor platform for the stopgap apps is more,

01:17:49   it would be better to be the Mac because those apps are designed to have multiple windows

01:17:55   arranged.

01:17:56   Maybe not all around you, but arranged all over the place.

01:17:59   But we'll say maybe just multiple iPad apps is exactly fine as a stopgap.

01:18:03   But I would think if you, if anyone, I mean, I know because of the API things, that's not

01:18:06   how it works, but someone porting a complicated app, final cut pro for vision pro, should

01:18:12   it be, should you start from the iPad version of that app or should you start from the Mac

01:18:16   version?

01:18:17   You're making a native vision pro version, but which version should you start from?

01:18:20   And I think you should start from the Mac one, but they certainly won't because of the

01:18:24   API differences.

01:18:25   So that's a whole other kettle of fish, but you know, spiritually, I feel like, you know,

01:18:29   the canvas provided by the vision pro is so much more expansive than the canvas provided

01:18:33   by the iPad.

01:18:34   It makes me think more of the Mac.

01:18:36   Well, I think there are some critical differences though.

01:18:38   Like, you know, as, as a lot of like the VR bloggers and stuff have pointed out, like

01:18:43   the density of the displays and the sizing of them, I would think about it more like

01:18:48   TV screens than monitors.

01:18:50   Like, you know, you look at computer monitors, they're very dense.

01:18:52   You look at them much closer up.

01:18:54   TV screens are big and beautiful.

01:18:56   And you look at them from like, you know, eight or 10 feet away maybe.

01:18:59   And it's a very different way of using it.

01:19:01   Like, you know, imagine if, if computing was, was really fast and easy on an Apple TV and

01:19:08   you had an infinitely sized screen on the Apple TV, like, but you're still sitting on

01:19:11   the couch looking at something six feet away.

01:19:13   When you look at how windows are laid out in these VR headsets, like the, you know,

01:19:18   the distance they're simulating of how far in front of you they are, relatively how large

01:19:21   they are.

01:19:22   And you look at things like the density of the displays, like how many pixels they actually

01:19:26   have.

01:19:27   It's nowhere near the density of computer monitors.

01:19:29   And so I would be surprised if when, when people actually use these, if they ended up

01:19:36   actually wanting Mac-like density of controls and density of text and things that I think

01:19:41   what we're going to want is going to end up looking kind of halfway between iPad apps and

01:19:45   Apple TV apps.

01:19:46   Yeah.

01:19:47   Well, with the current density, you're right, because you know, it's 4K per eyeball, but

01:19:51   as we talked about when these initially launched, your floating window does not fill up.

01:19:56   Fill your entire field of vision probably.

01:19:58   So you're not even getting a 4K screen, which is, it's, you know, it's a, it's an achievement

01:20:02   that they've apparently achieved the text legibility that they have, but it's not 200

01:20:06   pixels per inch, four feet from you.

01:20:08   Not even close.

01:20:09   And it'll probably be a long time before we had that kind of hardware.

01:20:12   I don't know how long, they've, they've making good advances, but yeah, but the initial version

01:20:15   isn't.

01:20:16   So that, I mean, that's, that's why a lot of these screenshots, they do look like Apple

01:20:19   TV apps, like viewable from six feet away, big chunky controls, but they do also have

01:20:25   lots of accessory stuff floating around.

01:20:27   Yeah, they do.

01:20:28   That's why they like, I mean, it isn't, there is no like direct paradigm, like, Oh, it's

01:20:31   just like a big iPad or what you can't say it's just like any of the platforms, but I,

01:20:37   I really think it's going to end up being more like a combination of iPad plus Apple

01:20:42   TV than Mac anything.

01:20:44   Like I think that the sizing and the density and everything is all wrong for the Mac.

01:20:48   I mean, if we had displays that could support it though, it would be great to do during

01:20:54   for doing Mac stuff in the same way.

01:20:56   If you had three pro display XDRs in front of you, right?

01:20:59   If you had the density in that device to support the actual resolution of three protests, why

01:21:03   XDRs at arm's length around you, that would be amazing.

01:21:07   And people would love it because it's smaller and hopefully cheaper than three protests

01:21:10   the ours, and you don't need to connect them with cables, but that's not this generation

01:21:14   or product.

01:21:15   Yeah.

01:21:16   I do understand what you're saying though, John, that the Mac does at a glance seem like

01:21:21   a better donor platform.

01:21:22   But I think I have to come down on where Marco is in that.

01:21:26   I think we're going to end up in this kind of weird, and I don't necessarily mean bad,

01:21:30   but just maybe unusual halfway world between like iPad and Apple TV, like Marco was saying.

01:21:35   And I expect that.

01:21:37   That's another reason why TV applications like as in watching actual movies and television

01:21:40   shows is great for this because you're not going to notice the resolution deficit because

01:21:46   it's television.

01:21:47   Yeah.

01:21:48   So with that in mind, we've been talking and kind of glancing off the discussion about

01:21:52   the app ecosystem and whatnot.

01:21:53   So I've been thinking a lot about what I want to do with regard to this and history says,

01:22:00   I will be the first to tell you, I'm starting right out and telling you history says I'm

01:22:03   going to pre-order one because I'm a sucker and that's what I do.

01:22:05   Of course you are.

01:22:06   But I'm trying to, I'm trying to be rational about this, which is not something I'm typically

01:22:11   capable of doing.

01:22:12   And I'm probably wasting everyone's time by even talking about this because I'll end up

01:22:15   ordering one.

01:22:16   But like, I don't think coming back to our conversation a little while ago about like,

01:22:22   did people really want an iPhone?

01:22:23   Like sitting here now, I don't know if I want to spend $3,500 starting at ease.

01:22:31   The starting at as, as a consumer.

01:22:34   Now this is with my consumer hat on.

01:22:36   I have not yet put on my developer hat, but as a consumer, I don't know what I would use

01:22:43   this for that would justify $3,500.

01:22:48   Like that is a tremendous amount of money, a truly tremendous amount of money.

01:22:54   And for people who are saying, Oh, you buy laptops like that all the time.

01:22:57   You know what you're going to use the laptop for.

01:22:59   Like it's not a speculative use case.

01:23:00   You know, you're going to get out of the box and you know exactly what you're going to

01:23:03   use it for.

01:23:04   I mean, just for the point of comparison though, John, how much is that really nice TV that

01:23:07   you like?

01:23:08   I know what I'm going to use that for too.

01:23:09   That's what I'm saying.

01:23:10   It's speculative because like, it's not so much the price cause I'm, I'm, I'm preempting

01:23:13   people who are going to say you're complaining about $3,500, but every computer you ever

01:23:16   buy is more than that.

01:23:17   Yeah.

01:23:18   But we all know what we're going to do with the computers or the television.

01:23:21   We know exactly what we're going to do with them.

01:23:22   We know how the well they're going to do it.

01:23:24   And we know there, we already have something that we're doing and this is going to be a

01:23:26   better one.

01:23:27   So we plunked down that money for those easily.

01:23:29   But for this one, I think Casey's question is apt, which is like, if I wasn't a developer,

01:23:33   even though it seems like a cool thing to get for $3,500, what am I going to do with

01:23:37   it again?

01:23:38   Like the fear is you get it, you try it.

01:23:39   You try the few pieces of software for it and then it's $3,500 thing sitting in the

01:23:43   corner of your room.

01:23:44   Right, exactly.

01:23:45   And I think in the defense of expensive TVs and expensive computers, whether or not Marco

01:23:50   or I change computers like underwear, which I don't think either of us does as much as

01:23:55   I give Marco a hard time.

01:23:57   And I certainly don't think I do, but that being said, any of the three of us could use

01:24:03   any of the computers that we've bought recently for years, years and years and years.

01:24:08   And sorry, that implies that you are literally incapable of using a vision pro for years.

01:24:13   That's not what I mean.

01:24:14   But my M1 MacBook Pro that I just recently got rid of, I did not need to get rid of that.

01:24:22   I chose to because I'm a sucker for space black and I'm an idiot, but I didn't need

01:24:27   to.

01:24:28   I could have held onto that computer for another probably two to maybe even four years, which

01:24:34   would have made a sum total of what, four to six years of in-service, which for a laptop,

01:24:39   I know how much we hate laptops, John, but like for a laptop, I think two to somewhere

01:24:44   between four and six years is a pretty good run.

01:24:46   It's not, you know, it's not a humongously long run, but it's not a bad run by any stretch

01:24:51   of the imagination.

01:24:52   Your TV, when did you buy your fancy pants, non-plasma TV?

01:24:56   That was what, two years ago, a year ago?

01:24:58   2022, I think.

01:24:59   Okay.

01:25:00   So it was almost two years ago.

01:25:02   And what's the likelihood you're going to replace a TV in the next two years?

01:25:06   Very low.

01:25:07   Exactly.

01:25:08   And so whether now you might choose to do it in a couple of years because there's a

01:25:12   technology that you're really jazzed by and you're really understood, but I'm saying like

01:25:17   we could elect one could elect to replace these things, but I don't think it will be

01:25:21   compulsory.

01:25:22   Whereas with the vision pro, I am less convinced that it will hold up for much more than two

01:25:29   years.

01:25:30   It's like a series zero watch.

01:25:31   It's the first worst one.

01:25:32   Right.

01:25:33   Exactly.

01:25:34   This is going to be, hopefully that will be the worst one they ever make.

01:25:36   And if they do any kind of like significant turns in the course they're taking, like for

01:25:42   instance, if they did get rid of the front facing display or things like that, if they

01:25:46   were able to integrate the battery into the unit, like there are like some turns that

01:25:51   they might be making with subsequent revision of the product that will make this one feel

01:25:55   and look really old within probably a much shorter time than the useful lifetime of the

01:26:00   next one that will come out just because it is version zero.

01:26:03   Don't buy the apple vision pro edition.

01:26:04   Some advice.

01:26:05   It's not going to hold up.

01:26:07   So as a consumer, like I don't, it's hard for me to justify spending $3,500 and the

01:26:14   funnily enough, the thing that I think most strongly makes me want this as a consumer,

01:26:21   again, we'll talk developer in a second, but as a consumer, I think the thing that I'm

01:26:25   most interested in for this is if I could put aside the fact that I'll look like a total

01:26:30   doofus wearing this thing, if I could bring this to like a library or Wegmans or, you

01:26:37   know, a coffee shop or what have you.

01:26:39   And if I could, if I just, if I could not care about what I looked like, which I don't

01:26:42   think I'm capable of, but if in this fantasy world where I don't care what other people

01:26:46   are thinking as they're looking at me, I guess I'm always in the, uh, the completely, uh,

01:26:50   in, you know, uh, the, the, what do they call it?

01:26:52   The experience where you can't see anything around you, uh, immersive.

01:26:55   There it is.

01:26:56   I'm always in the immersive experience.

01:26:58   So I never, I can never see the people that are looking at me like I'm an idiot.

01:27:00   But anyway, uh, the thing that I think is most appealing about this to me is having

01:27:04   a 4k version of my laptop screen and you know, wherever I want, wherever I go.

01:27:10   And that strikes me as though it would be extremely cool because then I can have my

01:27:14   4k laptop screen right in front of me and I can have maybe the iPad version of Slack

01:27:18   off to the side.

01:27:19   I have an iPad version or vision pro strictly speaking version of Safari off to the other

01:27:23   side.

01:27:24   And now I've got one heck of a nice workstation that I can bring pretty much anywhere.

01:27:29   And that does appeal to me.

01:27:31   I don't think it appeals to me for $3,500 but it appeals to me nonetheless.

01:27:36   And so as a person, I want Marco to buy one and I want him to tell us what he thinks.

01:27:43   You know that'll happen.

01:27:44   Right.

01:27:45   And I want like a local friend.

01:27:46   I don't have one in mind, but just, you know, I want one of my local friends to buy one

01:27:49   a little friend with the same shape faces you.

01:27:51   Yeah.

01:27:52   The same prescription.

01:27:53   Well, no, you can snap in and out the prescription lenses.

01:27:55   Can't you?

01:27:56   Oh yeah.

01:27:57   But no, I take your point though.

01:27:58   You know, I want a local friend to get one so I can play with it, but I don't know that

01:28:01   I want one for me yet.

01:28:04   And I'm not saying that's forever, but I don't know if I want one for me yet.

01:28:07   So all that in mind, now I put on my developer hat and everything gets real muddy real quick

01:28:13   because it's not money.

01:28:15   For that is you need one because you're developing an app for it.

01:28:18   The end.

01:28:19   Well, but, but for what income?

01:28:20   Well, so it's both sides of this, right?

01:28:22   So on the one side, yes, I agree with what you said, John, that I, I'm going to have,

01:28:27   I don't know if I'll have it on launch, probably not at launch day, but I will have a version

01:28:30   of call sheet that works reasonably well, hopefully on the vision pro.

01:28:35   And I think it makes a lot of sense in the vision pro because if you can have, and I've

01:28:39   had people write, write to me and confirm that this is possible because I genuinely

01:28:42   truly do not remember it from my experience at the lab.

01:28:45   If it is possible to have a non immersive video player, and then you can slide call

01:28:50   sheet right next to it, which people are telling me that's possible.

01:28:54   You can slide call sheet right next to it and you can be looking at a video and looking

01:28:58   at call sheet at the same time, you know, mind exploding.

01:29:00   It's amazing.

01:29:02   And that sounds really cool.

01:29:03   And it sounds like it would be a really great idea to have it there.

01:29:08   And it would be very useful to have it there.

01:29:10   Additionally, as the chat room is pointing out, if by some miracle I can get it there

01:29:14   for launch and it isn't a pile of garbage, which are two big ifs, then I could maybe

01:29:18   get Apple to feature it or have, you know, reviewers featured.

01:29:21   I mean, imagine if iJustine gets a copy of this and somehow stumbles upon call sheet.

01:29:25   I don't know how that would happen, but just for the sake of discussion, then suddenly

01:29:28   I'm having my widgetsmith moment.

01:29:29   I don't expect that, but you never know.

01:29:32   On a platform that has no users.

01:29:33   Yeah, you can have a widgetsmith moment on a platform with a million users.

01:29:37   Sorry.

01:29:38   I'm going to have a widgetsmith moment on this platform for some time.

01:29:40   No, you can sell to 100% of the user base and you're still not there.

01:29:44   Exactly.

01:29:45   And the problem is, and I was actually, I had a monthly FaceTime with James Thompson,

01:29:48   a friend of the show, James Thompson, who does pcalc and many other things.

01:29:52   And he and I were chatting this morning and he pointed out to me a really good thing,

01:29:55   which is so obvious, but I hadn't thought about, that even if call sheet arrives on

01:30:00   the Vision Pro and even if I can, you know, I can get it to the point that it's not embarrassing,

01:30:06   even despite those things, it's the same skew as it is on iOS, on iPadOS, on MacOS.

01:30:12   It's all universal.

01:30:13   It's all the same skew.

01:30:15   So a lot, maybe even all of these users have already paid me.

01:30:20   They I've already gotten the money from them.

01:30:22   Why is it necessarily the same skew?

01:30:24   You can make a dedicated vision OS version.

01:30:25   I could, but I don't plan on it.

01:30:27   I mean, I could, I absolutely could, but I was not planning on it.

01:30:29   No, you totally should.

01:30:30   Why wouldn't you?

01:30:31   But you would have a shared subscription model.

01:30:35   You can have the same bundle ID and have it still be running native.

01:30:37   Like you can, like there's all, but you, but you'd have to like submit it to the Vision

01:30:41   Pro side of the app store separate.

01:30:43   That's the only thing that has to be separate.

01:30:44   Yeah.

01:30:45   I mean, like I think, I feel like universal apps where you, you write one app and it runs

01:30:48   on all the platforms you can pay for it once.

01:30:50   Customers love them, but as a single indie developer, it's economically unfeasible.

01:30:54   I feel like.

01:30:56   No, honestly, it depends a lot on how much you, how much work you have to do from your

01:31:03   existing code base to support this new platform.

01:31:05   And that's why, you know, I think we're going to see a lot of people doing what I'm going

01:31:08   to be doing, which is I'm going to permit my iPad app to run for a while.

01:31:12   And I do intend to have a native version of Overcast for Vision Pro.

01:31:17   I'm not going to make it anywhere near launch day.

01:31:20   So for now iPad version, and then we'll see.

01:31:22   Very similar in a lot of ways to if you have an iPhone app and you want to make it run

01:31:27   on the iPad.

01:31:28   Well, if the iPad is going to be a huge part of your market, maybe put a lot of time and

01:31:33   thought into that.

01:31:34   If it's only going to be kind of an accessory part of your market, you don't have to do

01:31:38   everything custom for the iPad.

01:31:40   You can just let the phone app run on the iPad with minimal modifications and it maybe

01:31:44   it won't be ideal, but it'll be fine.

01:31:48   That's something we can do here.

01:31:49   Like you know, this, this platform is going to have very low sales volume for a while,

01:31:53   so it's not going to be able to financially justify huge investments of custom work for

01:31:58   it for an existing app necessarily, unless there's a really big market for it on this.

01:32:03   As mentioned last time, I don't think I have a big market.

01:32:05   I think Casey yours is bigger than mine, so your calculus will be different than mine

01:32:08   here.

01:32:09   But when I bring Overcast to Vision OS, I have some ideas on how I can do it and kind

01:32:16   of the experience I want it to be like.

01:32:18   And to be honest, they're all pretty simple ideas that will require a bit of a more limited

01:32:22   experience than like the full everything app with every single feature crammed into whatever

01:32:28   window size I can get it crammed into.

01:32:30   Like I'm looking at a very different design, but it would be a lower effort design for

01:32:34   lots of reasons.

01:32:35   That's going to be easier to justify because this platform is going to have no users basically

01:32:39   for a while.

01:32:41   And so, but you know, so what you're saying Casey is like there is a clear market for

01:32:44   you to bring CallSheet to Vision OS with a native app that uses the same IAP as your

01:32:51   iOS app and much or most or all of the same code even.

01:32:56   I don't know how much effort it will be worth for you to like invest two months of development

01:33:01   time into it.

01:33:02   That is probably not worth it.

01:33:03   Oh no.

01:33:04   At least at this point.

01:33:05   No, I don't think it's worth it at all.

01:33:06   And I guess the question I'm really asking both indirectly and now directly is I think

01:33:12   I should put a modicum of effort into it to the order of like two weeks, not two months.

01:33:18   And I think that's fair, but I don't know if I even I think putting two weeks or so

01:33:24   of effort is fair.

01:33:25   But do I really want to spend $3,500 worth of money or leaving aside the effort?

01:33:30   Do I want to spend all that money just to get CallSheet on here?

01:33:32   Like I don't know if it's because I don't think I'll recoup.

01:33:34   Well, it's not worth it for the two week effort app, but I think I mean aren't you in visiting

01:33:38   a future where you would spend more than two weeks to make a an actual really good Vision

01:33:43   OS version of your thing to be alongside the video when people are watching it?

01:33:47   Like potentially yes, but that would I don't I wouldn't be justified in doing that unless

01:33:52   I felt like I was getting some sort of financial return from the effort.

01:33:55   What you're getting is a first mover advantage or you'd be early in the market.

01:34:00   No, the first year you're not going to make that money back probably.

01:34:03   But year two or three, you're already there.

01:34:05   You're the one that people know when they read the reviews.

01:34:07   Oh, if you're watching movies, you want to watch a thing.

01:34:09   IMDb just has a shovelware port of their iPad app and it's terrible, but CallSheet looks

01:34:13   OK.

01:34:14   Like you're getting in early in the hopes that you'll be the de facto look things up

01:34:18   about the video that I'm watching in Vision Pro.

01:34:21   Yeah.

01:34:22   I think from a developer's point of view, even though I don't particularly want to spend

01:34:27   $3,500 on this, particularly after spending a whole pile of money on this laptop, which

01:34:30   I probably shouldn't have done, I think I'm sitting here now, I'm leaning towards buying

01:34:37   one.

01:34:38   And then the other thing that I need to consider is I actually have a third hat, which is the

01:34:41   one I'm actually wearing right now, which is as a podcaster.

01:34:45   And I think it would make for much better programming on this very show if at least

01:34:50   one, preferably two, or in a perfect world, three of us have one of these to play with.

01:34:55   Well, I have a solution to that, by the way.

01:34:57   It's called Apple Sends Us Review Units.

01:34:59   If only, John.

01:35:00   If only.

01:35:01   You don't get to keep them forever.

01:35:02   I'll talk to Gruber about that.

01:35:04   Define forever.

01:35:05   On an infinite timeline, Gruber will return all his products.

01:35:08   Yeah, exactly.

01:35:09   No, I mean, I agree with you that I'd love a review unit, but ultimately, for better

01:35:14   or worse, I can continue to whine and moan about this.

01:35:16   But ultimately, it seems clear that we are not on Apple's radar in that capacity.

01:35:20   And so I have to just understand I can't wait for that to happen.

01:35:24   So I have to understand.

01:35:25   That's not going to happen.

01:35:26   Don't wait for it.

01:35:27   Right.

01:35:28   So I need to take matters into my own hands.

01:35:29   And I think as a podcaster and as a developer, two of the three hats that I'm wearing say,

01:35:34   "I should probably try to pick one of these up."

01:35:36   Now, I haven't talked to the family CFO yet, and I have a feeling they might have some

01:35:41   conflicting opinions about this.

01:35:44   But sitting here now, it seems like—and I still have made a final decision—but it

01:35:48   seems like it's probably prudent for me to get one so that this way I can make CallSheet

01:35:52   as good as it can reasonably be done.

01:35:54   Because I can tell you, I don't think it's unfair for me to say that spending the day

01:36:00   in the lab gave me a lot of useful feedback.

01:36:05   And I'm saying just from myself, in using the app, it was incredibly useful to experience

01:36:13   it on the actual platform as compared to the simulator.

01:36:16   And the simulator is very good for what it is, but having experienced it on the actual

01:36:20   device gave me all sorts of clues and ideas and things to do that I never would have considered

01:36:27   had I not had the thing on my face.

01:36:29   And I don't think Apple would be grumpy at me for saying that.

01:36:32   So in so many ways, I think I'll probably also be lining up on the virtual queue on

01:36:37   a week from Friday or whatever it is, and trying to put my hands on one.

01:36:41   I will probably get the cheapest one they will possibly sell me, which is still a damn

01:36:44   fortune.

01:36:45   Yeah, I would call it the least expensive, not the cheapest.

01:36:47   Yeah, exactly, exactly.

01:36:49   But I don't know.

01:36:50   It's funny because I seem so morose and down on it, and I actually don't mean to.

01:36:55   And again, now I'm getting into dangerous territory because I don't want to talk about

01:36:58   what happened at the lab.

01:37:00   But there is a lot about this platform to be very excited about.

01:37:04   And I think Marco was hinting at the same earlier.

01:37:06   There's a lot to be excited about here.

01:37:09   It's just I find the price so off-putting, which may sound nuts, but I think of myself

01:37:15   as a relatively frugal person.

01:37:17   And I know especially in the last six months, some of my expenditures may indicate otherwise.

01:37:21   But generally speaking, I don't enjoy spending money just for spending money's sake.

01:37:26   And I really try to be prudent and frugal with my expenditures.

01:37:31   And it's so much money.

01:37:34   It's so much money on what seems to be a hope and a prayer.

01:37:38   And that's the thing that just freaks me out.

01:37:41   And I hope so much that...

01:37:44   I can tell you there's a lot of potential in this platform.

01:37:46   And again, now I'm starting to get into dangerous territory again.

01:37:48   But there's a lot of potential in this platform.

01:37:51   And I really hope that between Apple and third-party developers it gets realized because there's

01:37:55   a lot there.

01:37:56   I think, first of all, however much we want to hem and haw about the price will not matter

01:38:02   at all.

01:38:03   Because if there's any truth whatsoever to the rumors that they can only make, say, a

01:38:07   million a year, there's enough rich people in the world who will jump on this that it

01:38:12   won't matter what the YouTubers say and what we all say about the price.

01:38:15   That's an interesting point, yeah.

01:38:16   If they can truly only make it in relatively small volumes, there are enough buyers out

01:38:20   there who will buy it at that price.

01:38:22   It won't matter.

01:38:24   So setting that aside, for a developer's point of view, I think your suspicion is correct,

01:38:30   you will not make $3,500 in sales on this platform in all likelihood in the first year.

01:38:37   That seems very unlikely.

01:38:39   And so, again, gauge your level of effort accordingly.

01:38:43   For us in particular, I think it makes total sense to buy it just because, again, this

01:38:46   podcast is a big part of our careers and jobs and income, and so we need it just for that,

01:38:51   honestly.

01:38:52   Even if none of us had any other use for it other than to try it and talk about it, we

01:38:56   should probably all get it just for that purpose alone.

01:38:59   Nerds like us are going to try to somehow rationalize this price because it's cool,

01:39:05   but you don't need to rationalize the price.

01:39:08   It can just be cool.

01:39:10   There are concert tickets that are this expensive, and people pay them because it's cool and

01:39:16   they want it.

01:39:17   Like, that's it.

01:39:18   That's enough of a reason sometimes.

01:39:20   We can try, again, try to justify it as much, whatever you need to do to justify it, justify

01:39:24   it.

01:39:25   That's fine, but many of the buyers of the Vision Pro, especially in this first year,

01:39:31   are going to be people who are buying it because they think it's cool and they want it.

01:39:34   They don't need to say, "Well, I'll be able to get my work done," or, "I can fund it with

01:39:37   my development."

01:39:38   Nope.

01:39:39   You don't and you can't.

01:39:40   It's just cool and you want it.

01:39:42   That's okay.

01:39:43   As long as you can lose that amount of money and not harm your family as a result or something,

01:39:49   or not get yourself into debt.

01:39:51   If you can afford it, it's okay to spend money on things that make you happy and are cool

01:39:56   to you.

01:39:57   That's all it needs to be, and there's enough people in the world who can spend that money,

01:40:02   who will do it just solely for those reasons.

01:40:04   They'll be fine.

01:40:05   They'll be sold out and backordered the entire year.

01:40:08   So it doesn't matter if we think it's too expensive or if some YouTuber with the O face

01:40:12   on their thumbnail says it's too expensive.

01:40:14   "Is this really worth it?"

01:40:16   You know you're going to see a thousand of those, and the answer will be, "They're going

01:40:19   to say it's not.

01:40:20   All the commenters are going to say it's not, and you still can't buy one because they're

01:40:22   backordered."

01:40:23   So it doesn't matter.

01:40:25   Enough people think it's cool that they're going to sell all of them.

01:40:29   Now whether there is an at market for you as a developer, that's a different question,

01:40:33   of course.

01:40:34   It's so hard to step around lab experiences here.

01:40:41   So I'll make an analogy for something I can talk about because I had no pre-release access

01:40:44   whatsoever.

01:40:45   The iPad.

01:40:47   I was running Instapaper at that time.

01:40:49   That was my app, and the iPad came out, and as you recall, because we remember previous

01:40:56   Apple product launches and their hype cycles, John, as you recall, the iPad was announced

01:41:02   a few months before it was available.

01:41:03   I believe it was announced in January, came out in April, something like that.

01:41:06   So during that time, we had the SDK for it, so we could run the iPad simulator exactly

01:41:12   like we have the Vision Pro today.

01:41:13   We have the Vision OS simulator, but we don't have the hardware yet as developers.

01:41:17   So just like that, we had a few months where we had the simulator for the iPad, and we

01:41:21   could get our apps ready for the App Store and get them there on day one.

01:41:25   Great.

01:41:26   So I did that with Instapaper.

01:41:29   We did all sorts of things, we made cardboard mockups so we would know how big the iPad

01:41:33   was in our hands and print out the screenshot on paper at the exact right size of the iPad

01:41:38   screen so we could see, "Is this big enough?"

01:41:40   And all of that, it felt like we were really preparing for this platform.

01:41:45   And then I remember I got the iPad on launch day, and I launched Instapaper on it, and

01:41:50   I used it for five minutes, and I was like, "This is all wrong."

01:41:54   Everything I had done for months with the simulator and with paper mockups and cardboard

01:41:58   and everything, it was all immediately upon using the real hardware, I'm like, "Oh, yeah,

01:42:03   this is not a good design for this.

01:42:04   This doesn't work.

01:42:05   This is different.

01:42:06   This should be like this."

01:42:07   It was so clear to me that the design I had made based on the simulator and guesses was

01:42:12   just not right.

01:42:14   I had the same feeling when I ran the app that I have in progress for Overcast on the

01:42:19   Real Vision Pro.

01:42:20   Everything I thought about the design of how it should be was wrong and bad.

01:42:25   I would strongly suggest to anybody who actually is going to take this seriously as a developer,

01:42:31   if you really want to make a Vision OS version of your app that is not just your iPad app

01:42:37   running on a window, if you're actually using the native controls, you want it to actually

01:42:41   be a first-class Vision OS app, even not even, be a third-class Vision OS app, you need the

01:42:47   hardware.

01:42:48   That's it.

01:42:49   It is so different than seeing your app in the simulator.

01:42:52   I have done zero further development on Overcast for Vision OS after the lab because I learned

01:43:01   in the lab, "Oh, I'm wrong about everything, and I need the hardware to know that, and

01:43:05   I need to develop whatever I'm going to develop for it.

01:43:08   I'm going to need to develop it with the hardware."

01:43:10   I have totally paused Vision OS development of Overcast until I have a Vision Pro.

01:43:15   I strongly suggest for all developers out there, if you are going to take this platform

01:43:19   seriously and try to make a good version of your app, don't even bother doing it now.

01:43:24   Do it when you have the hardware, and definitely get the hardware.

01:43:27   You're going to need it.

01:43:28   You're not going to be able to make a good app with simulators alone.

01:43:31   You just can't on this platform.

01:43:32   It's too different.

01:43:33   It's way too different.

01:43:35   You don't even realize how different it is if you haven't had the chance to go to a lab.

01:43:39   If you intend to have an app on this platform, you need the hardware, period.

01:43:42   Don't even worry about the cost.

01:43:44   Just consider it a cost of developing an app for this platform.

01:43:47   Unless you're making the Vision Pro beer drinking app, in which case, just do it in the simulator.

01:43:51   It'll be fine.

01:43:52   I'm sure they'll get right on approving that in the App Store.

01:43:54   It's an impulse purchase.

01:43:55   People will get it because they want to try something fun on the Vision Pro.

01:43:58   Your app will stink for the reasons Marco stated, but it doesn't matter because you've

01:44:00   already got their money.

01:44:02   Finally, Apple has some Vision Pro app submission advice.

01:44:08   There's a bunch of interesting things here, some of which I'm really giving some serious

01:44:13   side eye to.

01:44:14   John, you put an image in the show notes here.

01:44:18   It says, "Don't tilt or distract from your app window.

01:44:22   Don't depict cluttered surroundings, and don't show foveated rendering."

01:44:25   Do you want to show the one?

01:44:26   Those are the screenshots that you would submit for your app.

01:44:29   Here's my app in action.

01:44:30   They give an image to show all the don'ts, which I thought was hilarious.

01:44:34   First of all, the tilting, I would do wonder if they would actually enforce this, but you

01:44:39   should know this from our past conversations.

01:44:40   It's a Dutch angle.

01:44:41   It was tilted, right?

01:44:43   The second one is the one that's getting the most play.

01:44:45   Don't depict cluttered surroundings.

01:44:46   As someone pointed out in Mastodon, it would take me a week to get my house to look this

01:44:50   uncluttered.

01:44:51   This is their example of cluttered surroundings.

01:44:54   It must pain Apple's set dressers to try to make cluttered surroundings.

01:44:58   They're like, "I guess we can put an extra item on the coffee table."

01:45:02   It's like, "Oh, it hurts me so much to do this, but here's an extra item.

01:45:05   Instead of just a plant, now there's a plant and a book.

01:45:08   And oh, on the floor is an item.

01:45:11   What item?

01:45:12   There's an item on the floor, and it's open, and someone put their jacket on the table.

01:45:15   I can't look.

01:45:16   I can't look.

01:45:17   It's too cluttered."

01:45:18   This is like the neatest house you've ever seen in your entire life.

01:45:20   Do not depict cluttered surroundings.

01:45:23   So ridiculous.

01:45:24   And then the final one is weird to me.

01:45:26   Foveated rendering is when you render the part that the people aren't looking at at

01:45:29   lower resolution.

01:45:30   Is it even possible to grab screenshots in the Vision Pro with foveated rendering?

01:45:36   I thought the screenshots were always everything rendered at full res, but maybe I'm wrong.

01:45:42   Maybe if you capture a video feed of it, maybe it would follow your gaze?

01:45:45   I don't know.

01:45:46   I mean, I guess you could simulate it, but why would you do that?

01:45:48   But yeah, no, you can't use foveated rendering if you don't know where people are looking.

01:45:51   The whole image has to be rendered at the complete resolution.

01:45:56   And ultimately, on the clutter angle, I think that actually might slightly hinder the product

01:46:02   in-- Because no one has that environment?

01:46:05   Yeah.

01:46:06   Who is working in an environment that is uncluttered enough to have all these windows floating

01:46:11   on top of it?

01:46:12   I guess you could just send simulator screenshots, right?

01:46:14   Yeah.

01:46:15   And yes.

01:46:16   I mean, yeah, the reality is for apps for screenshots, that's what everyone's going

01:46:18   to do.

01:46:19   They're just going to use simulator screenshots.

01:46:21   But for actual use of the product with windows floating in space when you're not in an immersive

01:46:26   environment, I think that's actually going to be somewhat of a limiting factor.

01:46:30   Because like Casey gave the coffee shop example earlier, I mean, first of all, I would never

01:46:34   wear this in a coffee shop.

01:46:35   I feel guilty wearing AirPods in a coffee shop.

01:46:38   So this is way out of my comfort zone.

01:46:40   But if you're actually going to be computing in it, you're probably going to want to be

01:46:46   in the fully immersive mode almost all of the time when you're out in the world.

01:46:49   And even in your own house, probably much of the time, it's like, my office is not that

01:46:53   clean.

01:46:54   Where am I in my house that is that clean?

01:46:56   Never.

01:46:57   Anywhere.

01:46:58   And I think most people don't have a space in their house that is anything like what

01:47:02   Apple shows in the simulator as possible good environments for the vision pro.

01:47:06   Maybe in a model home, if you go visit a model home or something.

01:47:10   Or yeah, or like an empty museum as one of them.

01:47:13   I guess maybe, but it's a very ideal view of the world that I think does not reflect

01:47:18   people's actual houses and offices very well.

01:47:20   Indeed.

01:47:21   So they continue, don't break Apple vision pro over two lines.

01:47:26   Okay guys.

01:47:27   This is hilarious.

01:47:28   Okay.

01:47:29   So the name of the product is three words of spaces Gmail, Apple vision pro.

01:47:33   Like if I put that text somewhere in my description, which we'll get to in a little bit, but it's

01:47:40   this thing they're actually going to allow.

01:47:41   Thank you so much, Apple.

01:47:43   I can't control if it's over two lines.

01:47:45   I don't know.

01:47:46   Like non-breaking space, baby.

01:47:48   Yeah, can use a non-breaking space, Apple amp, NBSP vision amp, NBSP pro.

01:47:51   Well then why don't they just say that?

01:47:53   Is that what they demand?

01:47:54   Or are they just saying don't break it over two lines?

01:47:56   They don't say it should be Apple vision pro with non-breaking spaces between all the words.

01:48:01   And even then non-breaking spaces that, you know, if it's rendered in some context, it

01:48:04   doesn't honor them.

01:48:05   Then it's just, it's, it's such a demand.

01:48:08   I'm sure Apple doesn't want them broken up, but it's like, okay, Apple, then you don't

01:48:11   break them up.

01:48:12   I know I can't control what you do with my text.

01:48:15   Yeah.

01:48:16   Also like I think it is, they have their work cut out for them.

01:48:19   If they want people to use all three of these words, cause that's what they say in their

01:48:25   guidance.

01:48:26   It's Apple vision pro.

01:48:27   It's not just vision pro it's Apple vision pro.

01:48:29   Everyone's going to call it vision pro.

01:48:30   No one's going to call it Apple vision pro.

01:48:32   Well I mean this is in text that they can audit, right?

01:48:35   Yeah, but like it's just like, you know, when they, when they launched like the Apple watch,

01:48:39   no one just called it watch because that's too generic of a word.

01:48:42   But and so if, if they would've called this vision just by itself, Apple vision, maybe

01:48:47   they would have stood a chance of people calling it Apple vision or not just a vision.

01:48:51   Yeah.

01:48:52   People would have called it Apple vision with no space then.

01:48:53   Yeah, right.

01:48:54   So by calling it Apple vision pro, vision pro by itself is uniquely identifying enough

01:49:01   in this time and place that everyone will just say vision pro.

01:49:05   Like I think that's going to go right out the window.

01:49:07   And there are people pointing out that, that some Apple stuff just says vision now, just

01:49:11   as Apple vision or vision, I think even their navs just says vision.

01:49:15   Like, so there's, Apple itself is trying to do the generic term to essentially make room

01:49:21   for the fact that there'll be a non pro someday.

01:49:23   Yeah.

01:49:24   Ultimately, I mean, maybe they should have, they should have actually called it Apple

01:49:27   vision, you know, just to get to kind of like lay that groundwork better because now when

01:49:32   everyone's going to be calling it vision probe without the Apple for, you know, however many

01:49:37   years, it's the only product in the lineup.

01:49:39   And then once they make one that's not called pro at the end, they're going to have to like,

01:49:43   we're going to all get up, like retrain ourselves to start saying Apple in front of it where

01:49:46   we weren't saying it.

01:49:47   But it's just, it's, it's a mess on their homepage.

01:49:49   By the way, Apple currently has the Apple logo, no space vision space pro.

01:49:55   We aren't allowed to do that.

01:49:56   Right.

01:49:57   Exactly.

01:49:58   I mean, in all fairness, they also style watch and TV that way.

01:50:00   Yeah.

01:50:01   Yep.

01:50:02   Also, anyway, continue with the last of these, uh, Casey, cause they're all fun.

01:50:05   This one drives me freaking Patty and it's consistent at least are consistent across

01:50:11   all their products.

01:50:13   It reads as follows.

01:50:14   Don't use the article.

01:50:15   The before Apple vision pro.

01:50:17   It's not the iPhone.

01:50:19   It's iPhone.

01:50:20   It's not the iPad.

01:50:21   It's iPad.

01:50:22   It's not the Apple vision pro it's Apple vision pro.

01:50:24   I don't know why this drives me nuts.

01:50:25   It's it's, I should let it go to be honest with you, but it drives me knots that they

01:50:30   don't do that.

01:50:31   And that's like, I'm going to say, Oh, that's a recent, yeah, it's recent in the past 25

01:50:34   years.

01:50:35   Uh, people always just talk about software being available on the Mac.

01:50:37   Uh, but these, you know, in the past several decades, that software is available on Mac.

01:50:42   Yep.

01:50:43   Oh, it drives me bananas.

01:50:44   Uh, don't refer to Apple vision pro generically as a quote unquote headset.

01:50:49   Good luck with that.

01:50:50   Yeah.

01:50:51   The phrase, the phrase Apple vision pro can't be included in your app name, but it can be

01:50:55   included in your app description.

01:50:56   Oh, well thank you.

01:50:57   Thank you so much.

01:50:58   Thank you.

01:50:59   Hey, you can't put the word iOS in your Mac apps description.

01:51:02   It will get rejected, but we're allowing you to say the name of our product in your description.

01:51:06   Not like it's like, like Mac Beth or something.

01:51:09   It's so generous to allow us to tell our customers what platform this runs on.

01:51:14   Exactly.

01:51:15   Uh, you know, updated future versions of Mac OS.

01:51:17   Don't mention Mac OS.

01:51:19   We don't want people to know about it.

01:51:21   And then you, uh, should, you, you can, you should refer to your app as a spatial computing

01:51:26   app.

01:51:27   Don't describe your app experience as augmented reality, AR, virtual reality, VR, extended

01:51:32   reality XR or mixed reality MR.

01:51:35   Even if it's one or all of those things, don't say it.

01:51:38   Don't say it.

01:51:39   We can say it.

01:51:40   Apple can say it, but you can't say it.

01:51:42   Yeah.

01:51:43   Oh, these are, these are very, um, they're very Apple.

01:51:47   These are very, you know, very persnickety little things that are, I think a little bit

01:51:50   optimistic, uh, you know, on how people talk.

01:51:53   This is Apple.

01:51:54   This is part one of the parts of Apple I do not care for.

01:51:56   Like I understand the motivation here on their end, but just chill out.

01:52:00   You guys chill out.

01:52:01   I mean, it makes sense as, because to give the context again, here, these are app submission

01:52:06   guidelines.

01:52:07   You and your regular life can call it a headset all you want.

01:52:09   We call it a headset on this program.

01:52:10   All we want Apple would prefer us not to, but in the end they have no control over it.

01:52:13   They would prefer us to just call it headset.

01:52:15   Right.

01:52:16   But, but when it comes to the app store, uh, that they do have control over and they will

01:52:20   reject your app.

01:52:21   If you put like vision pro, the Apple vision pro in the name of your app, like new, you

01:52:27   know, flappy birds for Apple vision pro and that's the name of your app rejected.

01:52:30   Well, probably not because someone's going to let it go through because they didn't read

01:52:33   these guidelines.

01:52:34   But anyway, to the extent that any app store stuff is applied consistently, that's the

01:52:37   one thing that they can control.

01:52:38   Uh, meanwhile, everybody in all their reviews is going to be capitalizing vision pro when

01:52:43   it's the first word in the sentence or vision os when it's the first word in the sentence

01:52:46   and you're not supposed to do that.

01:52:47   We're going to be calling it a headset.

01:52:49   People are going to be mentioned in ar and vr and there's nothing Apple can do about

01:52:51   it, but somewhere.

01:52:52   So Apple marketing person will have a single tear roll down their cheek as they read the

01:52:57   reviews.

01:52:58   And then very, very quickly before we go, Apple is going to offer vision pro demos at

01:53:01   its retail stores for regular people.

01:53:03   Apple writes, you mean Apple vision pro demos?

01:53:05   Sorry.

01:53:06   Yes.

01:53:07   You failed me in the show notes.

01:53:09   That's the verge.

01:53:10   The verge failed you.

01:53:11   Fair enough.

01:53:12   Starting at 8am on Friday, February two, we invite you to sign up for demo of Apple vision

01:53:15   pro at your local Apple store.

01:53:18   Demo times will be available Friday through the weekend on a first come first serve basis.

01:53:20   We can't wait to see you there.

01:53:22   Interesting.

01:53:23   And it's, it implies by the way, and I think the verge said this, that it's only the first

01:53:27   weekend, which seems bananas to me, but maybe that's the story.

01:53:31   I don't know.

01:53:32   It'll be sold out after that.

01:53:33   It is probably quite an ordeal to provide those demos like time per person, how much

01:53:40   staff hand, how much handholding it's really a big time sink to run indefinitely.

01:53:44   I don't know if it's just going to be the first weekend, but it seems like a lot.

01:53:47   Yeah, we shall see.

01:53:49   I only have one more question.

01:53:51   How tall is Egypt?

01:53:54   Someone will answer that and then they'll get Amazon karma for it and then you'll be

01:53:57   able to ask your little a cylinder in the house.

01:54:00   Was Superman real?

01:54:01   Yes.

01:54:02   Yes.

01:54:03   Superman's alive.

01:54:04   Why is there a past tense?

01:54:05   Oh my God.

01:54:06   All right.

01:54:07   Thanks to our sponsor this week, Trade Coffee, and thank you to our members who support us

01:54:12   directly.

01:54:13   You can join us at ATP.fm/join and we will talk to you next week.

01:54:18   Now the show is over.

01:54:23   They didn't even mean to begin.

01:54:25   Cause it was accidental.

01:54:27   Oh it was accidental.

01:54:29   John didn't do any research.

01:54:33   Marco and Casey wouldn't let him.

01:54:36   Cause it was accidental.

01:54:38   Oh it was accidental.

01:54:41   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm.

01:54:46   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S.

01:54:56   So that's Casey List M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M-N-T.

01:55:01   Marco Armin S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A.

01:55:06   Syracuse.

01:55:07   It's accidental.

01:55:08   It's accidental.

01:55:09   They didn't mean to.

01:55:10   Accidental.

01:55:11   Accidental.

01:55:12   Tech podcast so long.

01:55:13   I have one more Vision Pro tidbit to smuggle into the aftershow, which I forgot to mention

01:55:24   when we were talking about it before.

01:55:25   I know I talked about it in Slack as well, but I'm still curious what the actual focal

01:55:30   distance is.

01:55:31   Is Apple provided to you?

01:55:32   You can't tell me if they sell it to you in the labs.

01:55:35   But anyway, as we discussed in the past, we all, at least I still think that it is a fixed

01:55:39   focal distance inside the headset.

01:55:41   What is that distance?

01:55:42   Is it one feet, two feet, five feet, three feet, eight feet?

01:55:46   And I ask again because I'm an old person and I want to know what prescription I should

01:55:50   tell them.

01:55:51   It might even be in the design guidelines for Vision OS apps.

01:55:56   It might be stated there.

01:55:58   I think they talked about the default distance of windows that are floating in front of you

01:56:01   and that you assume that's also the focal distance, but it seems like a tech spec.

01:56:05   The reason I bring it up with the demo is when you sit at the demos, like we said before,

01:56:10   they're going to say, "Okay, what's your prescription?"

01:56:12   Tell me the focal distance.

01:56:14   I would ballpark it as like, in a typical living room, whatever you would use to watch

01:56:21   your TV, that's probably what you want.

01:56:24   I was going to say the same thing.

01:56:25   My TV is kind of far away.

01:56:26   I just want to measure my feet.

01:56:27   I'm trying to help you out, man.

01:56:29   I know, I know.

01:56:31   It seems like they're going to have to ask people that, right?

01:56:34   And they're going to find out when they give the people the lenses and they're like, "Oh,

01:56:37   it's still blurry," and they're going to give them different ones and it's just like, "Just

01:56:40   tell us the distance."

01:56:41   Oh my God.

01:56:43   What does a princess mean?

01:56:46   What is the focal distance of the Apple Vision Pro?

01:56:48   No "the"?

01:56:49   Why don't you put that in the karma question?

01:56:52   Someone will answer it.

01:56:55   Do you want that answer, though?

01:56:56   Yeah, sure.

01:56:57   They'll, you know, someone for Amazon Karma, someone will break into Apple Park and find

01:57:01   out the answer.

01:57:02   Oh my God.

01:57:03   How many cups is three eighths cup?

01:57:07   I think we've created a monster here, folks.

01:57:09   You could ask that to one of your cylinders.

01:57:10   I hope that gives you the right answer.

01:57:12   Well, now it doesn't know because I'm so dumbfounded by the answer.

01:57:16   Apparently, so was the Alexa system and it also can't answer this and is asking people

01:57:20   for answers.

01:57:22   [beeping]

01:57:24   (beeps)