494: Copyright Violation Machine


00:00:00   Hello Upgradians, I have a note before we get started today.

00:00:03   We had hoped that this was going to be our first regular episode,

00:00:07   but there was one slight wrinkle that we didn't think was going to be a problem.

00:00:11   Jason is travelling today as we usually record on Monday the 8th,

00:00:15   so we recorded Sunday the 7th. We came in on our weekend like, "We'll do the show,

00:00:19   we'll make sure everybody has a new episode of Upgrade for them." However,

00:00:23   we now have Vision Pro pre-order information. So, beginning on January 19th is when you'll

00:00:30   be able to order this thing. It's on sale from February 2nd. Apple says they're going to be

00:00:34   available in all US Apple stores starting at $3499 for a 256GB model. It will come with two

00:00:42   head straps, the one we've seen and another with a top strap that me and Jason got to use when we

00:00:46   tried them on in June. The Zeiss lenses will start at $99 for readers and $199 for prescription.

00:00:53   Why am I telling you this? Well, as you can imagine, big chunks of today's episode are us

00:00:57   pontificating on when and how the Vision Pro would be announced and put on sale.

00:01:02   So we had to pre-record this segment. We hope that you will be able to enjoy it. There's still

00:01:06   a bunch of stuff in there that's post the launch frame and talking about what will happen for the

00:01:11   rest of the year. So, still tons of stuff in there. But you will get to be able to enjoy and maybe

00:01:17   grade us on just how right or how wrong we are and how we thought this thing was going to be

00:01:23   announced. I will say from my perspective, big surprise that they announced it with a press

00:01:27   release and when this thing is going to be going on sale. No more information than that as of right

00:01:31   now. We'll be back to normal next week to break down all of this news. Please enjoy today's episode.

00:01:46   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 494 for January 8,

00:01:53   2024. Today's show is brought to you by Factor, Vitaly, and Nom Nom. My name is Mike Hurley,

00:02:00   I'm joined by Jason Snow and welcome to the January upgrade-ies. That's what we're doing.

00:02:06   It's all upgrade-ies all the time. All the time? All the time. No. Let's shorten it to just like

00:02:11   upgrade. We'll call it just upgrade. All right, that's good. Well, we'll just award every piece of

00:02:16   news. That's what we're going to do now. We're back to normal now. Thank you to everybody who

00:02:23   checked out our December episodes. We had the weirdest scheduling of over Christmas day and

00:02:28   New Year's Day episode and I think we did a good job. People seem to really enjoy the episodes and

00:02:34   I'm very happy that we made it all work. Yeah, I mean as a Monday show we had multiple holidays

00:02:39   plus travel. There was a lot going on there and so we... it was weird though because we did

00:02:45   essentially record two and a half episodes in a two-day period. Yep. So that was... there was a lot

00:02:51   and then there was nothing. Yep. We have definitely part of my... recorded since December 18th which is

00:02:56   very strange for us. It is. It's very weird but we're back now. We are indeed. Just like that. We're back

00:03:04   with all of the trimmings that you expect including a Snell Talk question. This Snell Talk comes from

00:03:10   Ryan who wants to know, "Jason, how do you keep track of the books that you want to read?"

00:03:15   Oh, books that I want to read. Oh, I wish I could say I have a system. My system is

00:03:24   generally one of two things. I start with Libby which is a fantastic iOS app that works with

00:03:34   OverDrive which basically if you have a library card and if you don't you should get one for

00:03:40   your local library you can do ebooks from your library and Libby is the interface for that and

00:03:47   if you have multiple libraries and you may find that there are multiple libraries that you're

00:03:50   allowed to... you don't... you're not limited. It's not like voting where you can only vote in one place.

00:03:55   You can actually sign up for multiple libraries and sometimes there are even reciprocal

00:03:59   library agreements. I actually am logged into four different library systems in my Libby

00:04:03   which is a little confusing but I'm eligible for all four so I have all four. Anyway, so great thing

00:04:10   about that is that I hear about a book and I can search for it and if they've got it I can either

00:04:16   borrow it right then and read it on any device I want or I can... if it's not ready I can wishlist it

00:04:23   and if I'm not ready to read it right now but I want to remember it I tag it in Libby. Libby has

00:04:29   a tagging feature and I have a "I want this book" tag that I'll put on it and that allows me to look

00:04:34   later and say oh here are books... here are library books that I wanted to read at some point and

00:04:40   you know then I can put myself... like if they're available right then I can be like oh I'll just

00:04:44   check it out right now and read it and so that's really great. If it's not available in the library

00:04:50   or I want to read it right now and it's not available in the library for months then I will

00:04:56   usually just go to Kobo since my primary reader is a Kobo. I'll just go to kobo.com generally and buy

00:05:05   it and then it's on my device so I sort of have two places to look for books when I'm deciding

00:05:09   what I want to read. I have my e-reader itself and I have Libby on my iPad or iPhone and those

00:05:15   are the places that I get my books. Libby is never not weird to me. Like I understand it but I still

00:05:21   don't... can't fully get my head around the idea of like library ebooks. Yeah it's... I mean it's really

00:05:30   kind of amazing. So if you have a Kindle you check out the book and you choose send to

00:05:34   Kindle and it opens a web page and you basically say okay you log in if you're not logged into Amazon

00:05:40   and say okay and it just shows up on your Kindle. With Kobo, my Kobo is logged into one of the

00:05:47   libraries so with Kobo I just check it out and sync the Kobo and it just shows up on I mean on

00:05:54   next sync whether I sync it or not. So that's... and it's just there and then it's got an expiration date

00:05:59   it will take it you know 21 days later it will it will take it away from you if you haven't

00:06:04   finished it and on the Kobo when you get to the end it actually says would you like to return the

00:06:07   book now and you say yes and it connects to Libby and it boop or overdrive and it and it checks it

00:06:13   back in for you and then you can even download it to your computer using Adobe Digital Editions

00:06:22   which is a very bad piece of software but it will sync with e-readers too. So the other way to do

00:06:28   it is you can download the file on your computer and then sync it that way and that also works. So

00:06:32   there's lots of different ways to do it. It's actually not that more complicated than

00:06:37   checking out than buying a book somewhere. Yeah overdrive is a weird name for a library app. Libby

00:06:42   is a good name. Overdrive that doesn't tell me what it is at all. Yeah you know so the service

00:06:48   the service is called overdrive and they're sort of I think stuck with it but and they used to have

00:06:53   an overdrive app but they created Libby as an app and I think for the reason that you just suggested

00:06:58   which is it's actually for a library branded friendly consumer facing library thing Libby is a

00:07:05   good name for an app. What's the name for that library book app? Overdrive. Yeah okay yeah yeah

00:07:13   just because you might you know need to go into overdrive I don't I don't know why it's like

00:07:18   you know some brand names don't make are not the best like there's the the library also offers a

00:07:25   bunch of video stuff including movies and things you can get from your local library that are

00:07:29   digital and that's usually on Hoopla which is a thing that is a name that doesn't say anything

00:07:36   about anything so Libby in the grand scheme of things. You know what I here's the thing it would

00:07:41   not surprise me if getting streaming video from the library is a bit of a Hoopla you know. Ah it

00:07:47   is in fact it is 100 Hoopla. There you go so maybe that one they actually chose the name correctly.

00:07:53   But Libby and Hoopla I think you have like a limited number of movies you can check out in a

00:07:58   month or something like that but Libby it's just like you know you just read the book and then turn

00:08:01   it back in and then read another book it's once I got in the habit and as I realized just the yeah

00:08:06   the support that the e-readers have I highly recommend it if you or even if you're reading on

00:08:10   like a on your iPhone I mean you can actually read in the Libby app or you can send it to the

00:08:15   Kindle and read in the Kindle app there's lots of different options it's pretty amazing so check in

00:08:21   with your local and regional libraries find out where you can get a card and see who's got

00:08:25   overdrive. I highly recommend this episode brought to you by libraries. Libraries they're your friends.

00:08:30   Thank you to Ryan for that snow talk question if you would like to send in a question to help

00:08:36   us open a future episode of the show go to upgradefeedback.com where you can submit one.

00:08:45   I have some follow-up for you Jason Snow. I will say today is lots of followed where I think by

00:08:51   and large we are going to be covering what has been going on over the last few weeks while we've been

00:08:58   doing we giving out awards. It's been a month yeah since we addressed current events. I also wasn't on

00:09:05   the last regular episode so which is right because that was John Siracusa. Yeah was I no I came back

00:09:13   one never it doesn't matter anyway follow up killers of the flower moon is debuting on Apple

00:09:18   TV plus on January 12th so we have a date you decided to wait like I did just in the end I was

00:09:26   just procrastinating now I'll be able to watch this movie for quote unquote free next weekend

00:09:31   which I'm looking forward to in two installments probably we're going to do the same it's gonna

00:09:36   it's it's gonna get lots of Oscar nominations everybody I I'll watch it in one go but we've

00:09:41   three and a half hours yeah well okay that will that will also work right so I did with the Irishman

00:09:46   you know or it's like take a break we just did our our annual well it's not annual we just did our

00:09:53   recurring family event when Jamie was visiting us too we were all here and we did the six nights of

00:09:59   the Lord of the Rings where we watched the extended editions oh boy which on disc and we I actually

00:10:06   have the 4k h you know HDR ultra HD whatever is the blu-ray that I bought after we went to New Zealand

00:10:13   yeah the it's great so you watch those extended editions they're super long but they they break

00:10:19   in the middle and you watch one half a night for six nights and it was a lot of fun so I the

00:10:27   intermission they don't make movies with intermissions anymore but that was a good kind of

00:10:31   like set by the filmmakers intermission process and I you know sometimes I wonder if if for

00:10:37   something like Killers of the Flower Moon if Martin Scorsese could like offer it in two forms like

00:10:41   with an intermission and without an intermission but I guess for most people the pause button

00:10:45   is the intermission I just I like I kind of like the idea of the filmmaker saying

00:10:49   actually this would be a good time to go to the bathroom if you want you pause it here this is an

00:10:55   appropriate because sometimes I pause it thinking like oh man another two hours I gotta go to the

00:11:00   bathroom now and then I come back and I and I unpause it and like the scene ends and then

00:11:04   there's like a a huge like story break and I'm like oh why did I save those last 30 seconds but

00:11:10   you don't know if you're watching it for the first time anyway didn't Martin Scorsese do the exact

00:11:14   opposite of this where some places were putting intermissions in and he got really mad about it

00:11:19   and like made made the theaters stop doing it I don't know if I know that story but but this is

00:11:25   the thing is like I you shouldn't do it without the filmmaker's permission but the fact is home

00:11:32   video gives everybody permission and so you know the counter argument would be you know what if

00:11:38   filmmakers who are making very long films actually built in an intermission either in theaters or for

00:11:45   even home video would what would that look like could you do an intermission in software where

00:11:48   it's sort of like there was a fade out and then it was like take a break or continue I somebody

00:11:53   should experiment with that yep there were two cinema chains one in the uk and one in amsterdam

00:11:59   where they put intermissions in and they got in trouble with paramount that's not allowed

00:12:03   you're doing it it's not allowed well talking about not allowed the japanese fair trade

00:12:09   commission is working on a law similar to the digital markets act in the eu that could force

00:12:15   companies like apple to allow well not to allow to force companies like apple to allow I should

00:12:21   say sideloading I said allow three times yeah but I knew what I meant you said it out loud did yeah

00:12:26   so japanese fair trade commission they were the organization that had the first ruling for links

00:12:37   being put in to sign up for a service remember that a very long time ago now good times and they

00:12:44   are now looking to go down the same routes as the eu have when it comes to sideloading and also like

00:12:52   dominant browsers and all that kind of stuff this is for google and apple and anyone else

00:12:56   so I'm just putting that on the radar because I think it's going to be a thing we're going to be

00:13:00   talking a lot about again this year yep apple have announced the first vehicles or at least

00:13:06   the first vehicles to get the new carplay have been announced this includes the Aston Martin

00:13:12   db12 coming in 2024 hello governor you're gonna get one of those no and Porsche have said that they

00:13:20   will be adding the new carplay to their cars but gave zero details other than saying that they would

00:13:27   adopt it I've got a link in the show notes to a macrumors article where they have images from

00:13:32   Aston Martin showing how they are actually going to implement it into db12 and then there was a

00:13:39   there was like a mock-up image from Porsche or something that they might want to do so this is

00:13:44   you know the new carplay where apple is controlling your uh odometers and all that fun stuff so you

00:13:51   get your speed and like I know you're not gonna buy an Aston Martin but like you should contact

00:13:57   you're you're a British person you should contact Aston Martin pr okay and see if in somewhere in

00:14:03   swinging London uh-huh they might have a demo of the new Aston Martin with carplay do you think that

00:14:10   my lack of a driving license could be a problem I think carplay is is perfectly fine from the

00:14:19   well I mean you do need to be in the okay you got me get up step one get it because because they're

00:14:24   going to be right in front of you too because you're actually controlling it it's not just on

00:14:27   the screen yeah could be yeah well they're not going to they're probably not going to trust you

00:14:32   to drive that fancy car anyway so you just sit in the they'll just sit in the showroom and they'll

00:14:36   let you look at it there how about that how about that I'll do what I can on that one no promises

00:14:41   just tell them that you can drive and see what happens what they say I mean would they really

00:14:46   check you know you're a fully licensed media professional that's all that really matters

00:14:51   that's true I do have my license from the media professional agency that's right on that the

00:14:58   apple store apple's infinite loop campus will be closing on january 20th pull one out for the the

00:15:03   company store I've been there this was the apple store before there was an apple store this was the

00:15:08   apple store and they always sold stuff that you couldn't get anywhere else we got a onesie for our

00:15:13   baby yep company store at one point in the in the uh what 2002 era um the for our baby who is a

00:15:23   college graduate now that that baby so um it is you know it's kind of been surpassed they built a

00:15:29   whole store at apple park right a store slash visitor center and it also sells unique stuff

00:15:35   like merchandise that is just not available in any other apple retail store and it's about five times

00:15:40   the size of the infinite loop store yeah it is it is also I mean the infinite loop store has sold I

00:15:47   don't know I haven't been there in years now um they did used to sell like there were computers

00:15:51   there and there were there were um peripherals there and stuff like that it was um always you

00:15:59   know right it predated the retail store and then at some point they put it into retail but it wasn't

00:16:03   quite the same as a real retail store the apple store at apple park is a real apple retail store

00:16:07   with extra stuff and the company store uh the infinite loop store never really felt quite like

00:16:13   that so small so it's I think the writing was on the wall I honestly am surprised that it is still

00:16:20   there but it will shortly not be there anymore my understanding is they did sell some unique items

00:16:24   because they sold some infinite loop specific items not apple there's a lot of apple park

00:16:28   branded apple merchandise at apple park as well as but like that's where I've got a t-shirt with

00:16:35   a rainbow apple logo on it I'm like where do you buy that and the answer is you buy it at one of

00:16:40   these stores that's that's the the only place they don't sell those it's a funny quirk of apple

00:16:45   retail that apple does not spend any money on buy a t-shirt with the apple logo on it in any

00:16:51   place other than when you make a pilgrimage to cupertino it's pretty funny I went there um the

00:16:57   last wwc so wwc last year because I wanted to take it in there and it was closed uh they were

00:17:04   they were doing set up for a developer event there or something like that and so it was very hot and

00:17:09   we had to then stand and wait for an uber to take us away again which was very sad yeah but she got

00:17:14   her picture in front of the sign which is really the real reason to go there yeah what's rapidly

00:17:20   becoming a nostalgia trip since there's a I mean it's not the center of the universe anymore at

00:17:27   apple although it used to be and it's uh I mean it's they built a replacement for it oh and it's

00:17:35   like a thousand times better like the visitor center apple park is fantastic right that like

00:17:41   it's a store and like an exhibition space and a cafe and seating area and like there's also

00:17:48   something to look at because no offense to infinite loop not much to look at but you can look at apple

00:17:53   park you can see some hints of it from the from that little viewing area at the top like there was

00:17:58   a world in which they did none of that and I'm happy that they ended up doing all of it sure the

00:18:02   people that well I think they knew they knew that people were going to come because people come to

00:18:06   the infinite loop and they're like okay how do we deflect them right it's like we don't want them in

00:18:11   the ring because like literally infinite loop you can just drive around it yeah you can walk up to

00:18:17   you can walk inside I mean they'll stop you but like you can you can drive and park you can drive

00:18:21   all the way around you can power do some power sliding as you drive around the loop you can you

00:18:25   can and then you can park anywhere which is also where the employees park although you're not

00:18:30   supposed to I think you're supposed to park only by the store and then you can walk you can walk in

00:18:34   or walk up to pretty much any of the buildings and then they will stop you because you don't just you

00:18:39   know you don't deserve to be there you don't belong there you don't have a pass you're not

00:18:42   seeing anybody you're get out get out and stay out they very rarely said that to me but you know

00:18:49   occasionally and you know I don't know whether they plan on like gating that entrance but they

00:18:56   on mariani avenue but they could because it was always a little bit weird so when they built the

00:19:00   new one they're like no no uh parking and everything is completely separate but across the street from

00:19:07   the security gates we've made a little place for the general public to go and you can you can stay

00:19:13   there if you want and the apple watch series 9 and apple watch ultra 2 are currently back on sale so

00:19:21   now in upgrade continuity we have to be clear we never covered them going off sale okay because

00:19:29   as we recorded our last episode they had just uh said that they were going to go off sale and we

00:19:35   we were like well let's not even break the seal on that one because who knows how it's going to

00:19:40   change between now and uh and and beginning of january which is where we are now so they went

00:19:45   off sale and then they came back on sale i'm gonna not give all the details but basically they're in

00:19:50   a patent battle of a company called massimo over the block oxygen sensor if you do not know about

00:19:57   this right now there'll be some links in the show notes you can read up but the point thank you for

00:20:01   only listening to upgrade and no other tech podcast i guess if you've never heard about it

00:20:05   you never know i mean surely with at least one person's only source of apple news right

00:20:10   no i'm sure i've heard i've had people say that the upgrade is their uh their apple or tech

00:20:15   podcast which we appreciate very much there's an apple watch kerfuffle involving patents and it was

00:20:20   briefly off sale and then when the biden administration declined to uh overrule the patent

00:20:28   organization which they did for apple's benefit in a dispute with samsung but samsung not an american

00:20:35   company massimo is an american company and despite the name which makes it sound like it's done by

00:20:41   italian spies i keep thinking it's italian check with federico on that one but it's not it's an

00:20:46   american company it's based in irvine it's like a mile from where my in-laws live massimo so i

00:20:50   could check it out i could reconnoiter at some point in irvine in orange county so uh they the

00:20:57   biden administration said nope we're not going to do it apple immediately appealed the appeals court

00:21:01   immediately basically said okay it can go back on sale while we consider the case because it is

00:21:05   taking a product off sale is harm and generally courts are like let's not do harm while we're

00:21:12   waiting to process what's going to happen and uh and as a result apple has appealed and can keep

00:21:18   appealing and until it's all wrapped up um it will still be on sale and presumably apple and massimo

00:21:25   i don't know are they talking there it feels like this is all jockeying for leverage yeah yeah the

00:21:30   u.s customs and border protection have to make a decision on january 12th as to whether software

00:21:38   changes that apple wants to make would be deemed acceptable of massimo's patents right the appeals

00:21:44   court that apple went to that put like a stop to the the ban or a stay as it's called i was also

00:21:50   asked the itc the international trade commission to consider whether they would be willing to just

00:21:55   stay the ban completely until the full appeals process has been completed one way or another so

00:22:02   they could potentially be ruled against and have to take it back off sale or they could be told

00:22:07   and again i feel like in general courts and and other organizations you kind of want to not

00:22:16   that's what stays are for is you kind of want to not do harm i mean i guess massimo would argue

00:22:21   that the existence of the apple watch is doing them harm yeah but um if there's a penalty that

00:22:27   could potentially come uh you know if it's in dispute about whether an appeal is likely to be

00:22:33   one or not i mean i don't know we'll see i i feel like that apple's got a real shot here for them to

00:22:38   say you can keep selling it while this processes but this this may also be apple just kind of

00:22:42   running out the clock yeah the itc happens on january 10th to confirm what they think about that

00:22:48   that like you know obviously if the customs and border protection say it's okay then that's going

00:22:53   to help them but if they don't then the appeals court has asked the itc if it can still be sold

00:22:58   but failing all of this apple has another hearing on january 15th for the us court of appeals to try

00:23:03   and get everything overturned entirely this is very messy this is very messy this is massimo

00:23:09   i think some would probably call it okay they've got a something's gonna get done about this

00:23:15   because it's kind of i will say i'm very happy we've not covered this week to week

00:23:20   that like it's been happening while we've been mostly on break because this story is kind of

00:23:25   exhausting to me to be honest and uh you calling it messy mode does not make it better so it does

00:23:32   it makes everything what if what if there was like a big apple story and we just didn't cover it on

00:23:36   upgrade we're like nope i mean we haven't not done that you know there are things that are going on

00:23:41   where we just don't bother because it's like not really like you know that there are people talking

00:23:47   about it but it's kind of for us there's not really much to add so we just don't but this one

00:23:52   is big enough that we would have and are now so like you know we'll probably give follow-up in

00:23:58   the next couple of weeks as to exactly what's happening with this because it is a big story

00:24:02   the idea of a product just being taken off sale which it was yeah wild it's also just a lot of

00:24:09   court stuff which realistically is not really super interesting when all you can do is say

00:24:16   what we've just said like there was an appeal that appeal was said yes appeal was said no two things

00:24:22   um more that i wanted to say about this one is buying psychology which is i don't know about you

00:24:30   i mean you you have a you have a an ultra 2 i do when it was right before christmas and they're

00:24:36   like oh it's gonna go off sale because of this part of my brain was like jason just buy an ultra 2

00:24:41   right now okay like why and the answer was because it's going away so maybe you should get it now and

00:24:51   i'm like i don't think i really even want an ultra 2 i'm very happy with my previous generation

00:24:56   titanium watch it's black it's titanium it's beautiful um i find it funny that apple has sold

00:25:02   this titanium watch because it's i don't know if you could even tell that it's not an aluminum

00:25:07   watch but i know right i know that it's titanium but and it's and it's it fits my wrist and it's

00:25:12   fine i don't need an ultra 2 but part of my brain was like jason but the ultra 2 it's going away

00:25:17   maybe you should get it now before it goes away because what if at some point in the future you

00:25:21   decide you do want an ultra 2 and it's not available in any store what will you do then

00:25:26   and i didn't buy it but i just i thought about it and i thought that was a really funny bit of

00:25:30   buying psychology right like oh we're gonna take it off sale and part of my brain was like oh buy

00:25:35   it now then before it goes away even if you don't want it you gotta buy it now anyway my other thing

00:25:41   is just that if they really wanted to make this uh perfect confluence it would be uh leonel messimo

00:25:50   love it uh i don't know why you think that was acceptable but mine wasn't um no i'm just going

00:25:55   further into the into the garbage dump there so you're welcome to me this whole thing is hilarious

00:26:00   because of the feature that is the problem which is like realistically a useless feature of the

00:26:05   apple watch because of how it's been implemented which is the blood oxygen reading compared to the

00:26:11   other health stuff it's you know i know right like if this was the heart rate sensor it's like okay

00:26:19   fight this i mean it will it will do some warning and i do wonder if like the sleep apnea detection

00:26:25   that they're rumored to be working on if part of what that is going to include is an oxygen monitor

00:26:30   and like do they how they but there's all the the fda approvals and things like that and as a result

00:26:36   there are some alerts but mostly it's just you go to the app and it gives you a number and we know

00:26:41   that the number isn't like as accurate as some other equipment would make it but it is something

00:26:48   uh but yeah it's it's very funny this is this is hardly a honestly if if the ruling came down and

00:26:54   they said look just turn the feature off on new hardware or even new and existing hardware until

00:27:00   we rule on this would it really be a material destruction of functionality of the apple watch

00:27:05   to have the blood oxygen sensor shut off for a while yeah because it's just a feature that

00:27:09   they've never really even when it's never felt core yeah well they just never did a good job

00:27:16   of explaining what you could use it for and and i don't even think it's the case of like oh it's not

00:27:21   fda approved because like the temperature sensors are not as good as they could possibly be but it's

00:27:27   actually implemented into a useful part of the product right right although very specific part

00:27:33   of the product and there's potential yes but other potential uses it they have shied away from sure

00:27:39   so i don't know but the blood oxygen sensor is it doesn't even ever really feel like to me it

00:27:45   even had that one thing that it was doing that was super beneficial yeah i am a blood oxygen sensor

00:27:53   hater yeah i know you are you you could the knives are out for the blood oxygen sensor

00:27:58   i am massimo that's what you are are you are you mike massimo is that you are you from italy or

00:28:07   from southern california which is it answer the question this episode is brought to you by factor

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00:29:14   to cook a factor meal uh disruptive is not a word i would ever even use it's super easy but what i

00:29:22   i mean you can see in the microwave and it takes two two three minutes and that's it and then it

00:29:27   comes out and it tastes good and i'll just say again i think i've said this here before um they

00:29:32   sent us another box and lauren just would steal them and take them to work with her yep i mean

00:29:38   like i i said hey wait a second they our very nice sponsor sent those to me so that i can talk about

00:29:43   it on a podcast and uh she was not really interested in hearing that and just took them to

00:29:48   work with her and the comment she also gave me as she stole my lunches away to take to work for to

00:29:54   use as her lunches was i don't know how they make microwave chicken taste good which i agree with

00:30:03   that you you might think about it like reheating a microwave meal and you can heat them up in a

00:30:06   toaster oven or an oven too if you want to but um but it's easy in three minutes in a microwave

00:30:11   um if you've reheated microwave food before or frozen food in the microwave you know sometimes

00:30:16   especially with like meat you're like this isn't quite right there's stuff and that's just not the

00:30:22   case i don't know what they're doing uh some of it is the high quality ingredients but um it's just

00:30:26   good and and uh and and all of it that's that's what impresses me it's in three minutes you've

00:30:32   got something that does not feel like it came out of a you know lab somewhere and was extruded from

00:30:37   a microwave instead it feels like fresh good ingredients it's pretty remarkable and like i said

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00:31:30   saddle up partner it's time for a round up uh the horse is happy to get out in the back 50 again

00:31:38   the new york times is reporting that apple is in talks with various publishers to license their

00:31:43   content to be used for training their large language model at apple the times is reporting

00:31:50   that apple is offering quote multi-year deals worth at least 50 million dollars and has made

00:31:56   these deals to publications like condonist and nbc news and i wonder maybe the new york times

00:32:02   could it be you know i find that to be very funny uh like how did you get this information new york

00:32:09   times well you know certainly the reporters don't know but um but it is always funny when they're

00:32:16   like we're reporting on something that's happening inside the building that's always pretty hilarious

00:32:22   so this is in contrast to i guess what open ai is doing where they are doing some of these deals but

00:32:29   they are reportedly very small and i think and the new york times has taken has taken open ai to court

00:32:37   and open ai said hey we were talking to them we were trying to arrange something and my

00:32:41   expectation is open ai was like that's not enough money see you in court right so uh a couple

00:32:47   thoughts here one is there is this ongoing debate about whether you know training a model on

00:32:56   copyrighted material is allowed if that's legal and also if if it is legal what is legal in

00:33:07   terms of how it gets presented because that lawsuit that was filed which is i think the

00:33:12   new york times filed against microsoft and open ai they said basically we can we can make a prompt

00:33:18   that gets gets your model to spit out a paragraph that is verbatim from our source and i know it was

00:33:27   a complex it was like literally pasting the first two graphs of the story and saying write the next

00:33:31   graph but that's not the point the point is if you can coerce an ai model to output copyrighted

00:33:39   material that i i'm fascinated by this argument because i i'm moved by the idea that google

00:33:46   indexing the web is not copyright infringement but google republishing your article is copyright

00:33:51   infringement and there's a gray area in between where it's sort of like are they stealing your

00:33:58   you know ability to make a business on it by summarizing it in a way that devalues it and

00:34:02   they're using it as raw material and and uh but leaving that aside i feel like the big problem

00:34:08   with a lot of these models is that is not necessarily that they're trained on copyrighted

00:34:13   material i do think that's a problem but that there's no control over what they output and

00:34:19   and they will frequently output something that contains portions of somebody's work

00:34:26   and so it's like a copyright violation machine right in some ways like if you think about it

00:34:34   like let's say it's legal to train on everything that's owned by everybody but it's still not legal

00:34:40   to reproduce copyrighted material and i start if i'm a lawyer especially i start to look at uh

00:34:47   at these llms and think wait a second what's stopping the llm from generating something that

00:34:53   will get us sued for copyright infringement and the answer is as far as i know absolutely nothing

00:34:59   and i think a lot of the controversy is about that which is these things don't know what their

00:35:07   sources are and because you're feeding the copyrighted material in you will get it back out

00:35:12   and there's two solutions to that one is only uh you know it's either you you do a filter at the

00:35:18   end that says does this look like something that actually exists oh it does and don't do that or

00:35:23   some sort of licensing agreement that says it's okay not necessarily just to train but like it's

00:35:29   okay to train and that the output might contain some of my content because we've got a license

00:35:34   for that and i don't know what the nature of this deal is that's being reported that they're talking

00:35:38   about with apple i would imagine that apple is thinking of both those things apple is thinking

00:35:43   on one hand we want to do a license a content license because that's going to put us in opposition

00:35:47   to microsoft and open ai and we like that and it also is giving us a business relationship with the

00:35:53   people who are generating the content so when the content comes out it is okay because we all are on

00:36:00   the same page about this i also though wonder if it's more than that if it's also that apple

00:36:04   is then apple's llms are then allowed to summarize or quote from the material because it's licensed

00:36:12   and that would be one way to get better quality output right in some ways is having the confidence

00:36:17   to say when you build your model that if they're you know if you can find a good source you could

00:36:24   actually say here's what the new york's times said about it and it would be all cool because

00:36:29   they're or here's what these wired magazines said about it i don't know it's an interesting approach

00:36:34   i mean apple has a history of this right so they're the the machine learning algorithms that

00:36:40   they built photo recognition on was on licensed imagery because i remember the question at the

00:36:47   time of like you're using our images to train your algorithm and it was like no i remember

00:36:53   craig vidry i think he said on the talk show said we have we are using licensed imagery so you

00:36:58   imagine they must have spent millions like just buying up all this imagery so they could train it

00:37:04   on and i guess what is one of the best ways to get this kind of text information is like to go to

00:37:10   an institution with as much information as something like the new york times and just be

00:37:14   like we'll just take all of that please just check out yeah and conde nast and nbc news and you build

00:37:19   a sort of a licensed engine that is going to be distinct in some ways from some of the other

00:37:25   models and i again this llm stuff and all the machine learning stuff it's really interesting

00:37:33   i have no doubt that apple misjudged the public's interest in the in the llm chatbot kind of thing

00:37:40   i still am kind of amazed when i see some articles that are like oh apple's like mark german's

00:37:47   newsletter this week said apple's years behind on this and i'm like okay i can believe that

00:37:52   apple is years behind that apple you know that people have been working on this for years and

00:37:56   that apple really only kicked it into gear last year okay i'll accept that but then his examples

00:38:00   are like because because google barred and the thing in bing are out there and it's like those

00:38:07   things are embarrassing experiments they're not real apple doesn't do embarrassing experiments

00:38:11   in public and it feels like a version of that same argument which is oh apple's late to the

00:38:17   apple watch because apple waited until it was ready to release the apple watch and even arguably

00:38:23   they should have waited another year but the pressure was pretty intense it feels a little

00:38:26   like that to me which is like well wait a second barred and the the gpt inside bing and what was

00:38:34   the other thing that he he said he said uh oh there was another ai thing where it's like oh

00:38:39   apple's way back oh amazon announced a new version of alexa like i mean did they even ship that or is

00:38:46   it just sort of like a it's just an announcement that they're gonna do it like to compare that to

00:38:50   what apple's doing like i'm sorry you i'm inclined to believe that apple's a few years behind on ai

00:38:57   these are not great examples because they're not things apple would do right apple is not going to

00:39:02   put out uh something like the the barred experiment where it's sort of like i don't know the results

00:39:08   aren't very good but you could try it out and they're not going to do something like pre-announce

00:39:12   that syria is going to be better eventually in two years or whatever right like they they famously

00:39:17   they don't do that so i need more evidence here about all of this stuff but um and i'm inclined

00:39:24   to believe that yeah they're late to the party but what's interesting about this report is it

00:39:28   suggests that they also got a different approach to this than some of their competitors and maybe

00:39:33   that is born out of the fact that they're late to the party um maybe it's born out of the fact that

00:39:39   their ml people are really skeptical about where all the ai stuff is has been going and is going

00:39:46   and are are trying to approach it and that doesn't necessarily mean it's a better approach but they're

00:39:50   approaching it differently i don't know but this is another data point i mean also though there's

00:39:56   there's i think there's just a difference in the companies i think apple is well aware that there

00:40:01   is no world in which anyone would accept apple taking this data without paying them like people

00:40:08   are asking questions about open ai like i think right so but if apple did it we're in a whole

00:40:13   different scenario no one's going to accept that right so so like that they're going about it the

00:40:17   right way i mean google's doing it amazon's doing it so but i think you're right in the sense that

00:40:22   apple wants to differentiate and there are lawsuits going on and like it let me tell you

00:40:27   it is no coincidence that the lawsuit and the apple is going to pay stories happened within a

00:40:34   day of each other right that is not a coincidence yeah that is the whole message is here's the right

00:40:39   way to do it here's the wrong way to do it from somebody perhaps the new york times i don't know

00:40:43   but like it's yeah it's it's interesting i don't know again i'm not trying to say oh apple i i've

00:40:52   got the inside scoop apple really is killing this like i don't know they they probably were behind

00:40:57   they were caught flat-footed but they're also their attitude to machine learning has always

00:41:01   been different they've been shipping machine learning based products for years they have

00:41:05   different standards and they're again there's an argument that maybe their standards are a little

00:41:09   too high but time and again what we've seen is apple gets criticized for being late to the party

00:41:15   because everybody else is pre-announcing things or doing experimental things and then apple comes in

00:41:21   at a moment when it's a it's a product that apple would actually be proud of and all of what what is

00:41:30   surprising when you're in it is that all that stuff fades away like do we really remember now

00:41:37   really unless unless we do this for a living maybe that like that first apple watch when it was

00:41:44   coming out when it was uh like six months before it was even introduced let alone shipped people

00:41:50   were writing stories about how apple desperately needed a new product and tim cook needed something

00:41:57   to justify him being the ceo those were ridiculous then but there was a lot of it there was a lot of

00:42:02   heat because people are you know people are people and they're impatient and they want to be

00:42:07   entertained and it doesn't necessarily mean that you know apple has to exercise discipline to be

00:42:12   like i know people want to be entertained people want us to the hot thing is chatbots we need to

00:42:17   launch a chatbot but we need to do it right now that could lead to complacency and it could lead

00:42:21   to apple missing the boat it absolutely could but i just i keep thinking about things like the apple

00:42:26   watch where it was the most important thing ever and yes a lot of us looked at it then we're like

00:42:32   guys the iphone is the most important thing and it's going to remain the most important thing the

00:42:36   apple watch is a nice thing if it happens but it's it's never going to be more important than the

00:42:41   than the iphone and yet that was the case and then the apple watch shipped and it was what it was

00:42:47   and six months or a year later it blew over and everybody was kind of over it and and like i said

00:42:54   earlier i think we could all agree thinking back on that original apple watch it was kind of too

00:42:58   early right like it was running everything on the phone and projecting it onto the watch it was like

00:43:02   it was a little it was a little early if anything but they shipped it because they were under

00:43:06   intense pressure to do it so i think about the with the ai stuff is that we're comparing apples

00:43:10   to oranges here we're talking about companies that can afford to put up experimental things and have

00:43:17   them be terrible and have like horrible output that misleads people and makes people file like

00:43:22   legal briefs that are citing cases that don't exist and they're like eh what you're gonna do

00:43:27   it's all an experiment and apple couldn't get away with that but it also is possible and i think

00:43:33   actually likely that apple's vision of where machine learning tech was going to be applied

00:43:41   in its products maybe maybe lacked a little bit in terms of where the technology was going to take

00:43:51   great leaps and capture people's imagination and i think both of those things can be true so i'm

00:43:56   interested this is going to be a great year to answer this question of like well what can they

00:43:59   get in a product this summer what can they get in the os is um but uh this story this this story

00:44:06   about the licensing says it again right which is like if you're expecting apple to just jump in and

00:44:11   play the exact same game as everybody else they're not gonna i'm like what part of apple do you not

00:44:16   understand they're not gonna do it they're just it's just not how they're wired um and they may

00:44:22   succeed they may fail but they're not playing the same game they're just not main qi quo is

00:44:28   reporting that the ultra wide camera on the iphone 16 pro will feature a 48 megapixel sensor this

00:44:35   would allow it to capture much more light and generate higher quality images uh i would love

00:44:41   this because i have been unhappy for the last couple of years of how frequently the iphone

00:44:46   switches to like the ultra wide macro setting when you're close to stuff because it produces

00:44:52   a worst looking image like they can be like definitely not as good in low light so my hope

00:44:57   would be that this would help make that better if they had a lens with that sensor behind it that

00:45:01   could take things from closer um instances to get that benefit so that would be good if they do it

00:45:08   a lot of good bits here um remember ultra wide gives you even more area like you could use this

00:45:17   for um for center stage um you could use this uh for macro and i think one of the big motivators

00:45:26   here is if you use this with the main camera to do um stereo videos um 3d videos for the for the

00:45:36   vision pro it's cropping from a much higher sensor because it's you know what it's going to be one of

00:45:43   the eyes along with the main camera that's how they do that but the current one that's implemented

00:45:48   on the 15 it's cropping a low megapixel sensor in order to get the same field of view as the main

00:45:56   camera which means that's why it's like a 1080 picture is because the quality just isn't as good

00:46:02   so if they put it at 48 not only yeah your ultra wides are going to look good and you can you can

00:46:11   zoom in like center stage like you can zoom into parts of it and it's actually going to be good

00:46:15   macro is good stereo capture is good it's funny because in a normal world apple probably looks

00:46:21   at the ultra wide and it's like why does this need to be higher quality uh but then you start

00:46:26   to tick off oh but we use the ultra wide it's like a utility camera we use it for a lot of other stuff

00:46:30   okay like i think they use the main for center stage when you use continuity camera but like

00:46:36   the ultra wide has more coverage so i could see a scenario where you even used it for that

00:46:40   and said if you need to go outside the frame switch to the ultra wide and then you can go

00:46:44   even further to the left or the right and get everybody in there like there there are a bunch

00:46:49   of uses for it right to having that ultra wide and so we've reached the point now where they

00:46:52   look at the ultra wide camera and they're like oh yeah i guess it should be better which is great i

00:46:57   love this report the idea that apple's not sleeping on its other cameras that you know

00:47:03   because they they all should keep getting better and mark german is reporting that the iphone 16

00:47:09   lineup will include a new dedicated button that you can press for taking video i'm assuming also

00:47:15   photos but mark has just said video it will be a signable i don't know it will be a capacitive

00:47:21   button on the bottom right side of the phone where the millimeter wave antenna is if you have a us

00:47:26   model the button will not physically move but it will feature haptic feedback and force sensitivity

00:47:32   so it'd be an area that you'll you'll press apple did this with the uh the home button for many

00:47:37   years when it moved to touch id this is very interesting and weird to me it's like it's just

00:47:45   like a button like why now like i know right now but also ours emerged from their tomb after many

00:47:50   years it's this is odd this is an odd one um i would like it like why not but it's like it's

00:47:57   one of those things where like you know we were just talking about the the 3d video like you know

00:48:04   like spatial videos this might be part of the reason but it is just like a funny thing to after

00:48:09   all these years you now put a physical quote unquote button on the phone for capturing media

00:48:17   of two new buttons and two new buttons in two years yeah two new buttons in two years the iphone

00:48:23   20 the entire rail of the phone will be all buttons just all buttons it's all buttons yeah i

00:48:29   mean it puts one it puts an action button on the other side that's part of it we know that they

00:48:34   were trying to do capacitive pressure sensitive you know fake button buttons with the action

00:48:40   button and the report is they couldn't get it to work so they or with the volume buttons i think

00:48:44   it was right like and they couldn't it was it was the volume and the the action button was supposed

00:48:50   to be action but that's what the rumors said anyway initially anyway and that they had to back

00:48:54   out of that so this is on the other side it's on the other end i think it maybe addresses the issue

00:48:58   of having it be held upright for um you know held for 3d captures that you put a more natural place

00:49:07   for your finger to go i i mean as i'm speaking to you now i'm capturing video on my iphone using a

00:49:14   amount that's like the the studio neat glyph so it's a it's like a clip and i keep you know it's

00:49:19   halfway down the phone because above it there are buttons and you can't press the buttons now this

00:49:24   if it's capacitive actually i think the any kind of mount will not affect it because it's being

00:49:30   touched by not a human not human skin but i do have that moment of like how am i going to even

00:49:36   mount my phone anymore but that all said like i love it this is i'm just going to replay we

00:49:41   could just go to the clip uh what i said about the action button which is there is something amazing

00:49:46   about having tactile it's it's like uh physical interfaces in cars instead of touch screens it's

00:49:52   the same thing like having to deal with software and like how do you get there well you tap on this

00:49:57   and then you scroll here and you swipe down and then you tap and then you open the glove

00:50:01   compartment in a tesla right it's like or you set the setting on your iphone like it's so much better

00:50:08   to turn on the air conditioning with a with a button or a switch it's so much better to start

00:50:15   capturing video or take a photo by pressing a button or doing whatever with the action button

00:50:20   but i think the the goal of the action button initially was literally i want a shutter button

00:50:25   and this sounds like the primary goal is i want a let's start doing video button and i think that

00:50:30   that is i think what it shows is that apple is really analyzing how people how regular people

00:50:37   use their iphones and that one of the complaints about using their iphones is a camera which is

00:50:42   probably the number one thing that people use their iphone for or certainly top three

00:50:47   is is oh i got it like do i unlock it and i have to go and i find the app and then by the time that

00:50:53   i do all that the moment has passed and i know there are shortcuts and stuff you can swipe in

00:50:57   this direction and do that but like there's nothing like the the smooth physical action

00:51:01   of pulling your phone out of your pocket it's in your hands you press the button you don't even

00:51:05   need to look you press the button and know that the capture is starting i think that's the key

00:51:10   part and you're capturing video you can get it going before you've even looked at the display

00:51:15   just with your hands feeling the phone that is powerful because and because you don't have to

00:51:22   interact with software at all it is like a physical like camera from the old days right

00:51:28   where if you're a photographer if you ever had a camera you probably know that you can just go like

00:51:34   turn in the old days like turn it on and then put your finger where the shutter is and then halfway

00:51:40   down and click and you know you're and you're taking pictures there's no like okay well first

00:51:44   you gotta turn on the camera and then you've gotta tap on the on the on the back of it in order to

00:51:50   like that no it's muscle memory it's it's physical and there's great power in that especially for

00:51:55   something like capturing video or stills where your eyes are not really on the phone and you

00:52:00   don't want them to be on the phone you want them to be on the subject so i you know i don't know

00:52:04   where this comes from that apple is just suddenly adding buttons everywhere but i love it like bring

00:52:10   it on bring on the all button phone fine let's we'll figure it out uh well you know but like a

00:52:16   few discrete buttons you don't want to overwhelm people with buttons then it's like the apollo

00:52:20   lunar lander right like it's like this is maybe too many buttons but surely a few more buttons

00:52:26   would be welcome for things like capture this is great i love this rumor i look forward to

00:52:31   the disasters of cases again oh man yeah yeah well you know case making is a lucrative business

00:52:39   and nobody said it would be easy you gotta you gotta toughen up case makers

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00:54:10   thanks to vitally for their support of this show and relay fm so let's look ahead a little bit to

00:54:17   the rest of this year and the vision pro specifically so here's my kind of imagination

00:54:24   for how this thing plays out roughly right okay we're going to start the year with an announcement

00:54:29   of some kind right however that happens doesn't really make too much of a difference for the fact

00:54:34   that it will happen then units will start going out to reviewers presumably there would then be

00:54:40   reviews before customers buy them customers will buy them apps will be released then wwdc rolls

00:54:47   around presumably for operating system improvements i expect we'll see some wwdc then later on in the

00:54:54   year a new version of the os and moving forward i doubt would i cannot imagine any more hardware

00:55:01   this year but by the end of the year more countries right would start to potentially be

00:55:06   receiving the ability to buy this product so this year no matter what is the story right like we are

00:55:15   going to be talking about the vision pro throughout all of 2024 like with the product actually

00:55:22   existing not just the way we've been doing it for the last couple of years where we've been talking

00:55:27   about what it might be and then talking about our experiences and then wondering more about it but

00:55:31   like we should see it in january probably some this is when this stuff will start to kick off

00:55:36   and then it is the entire year right yeah the whole year yeah for sure are you excited about

00:55:43   that prospect um yeah this is this is this is it right like whenever we were talking about like

00:55:51   looking forward to 2024 what i keep saying is it's going to be a great year i know i heard you guys

00:55:56   talking about this uh on connected last week that it doesn't matter how it goes i was trying to tell

00:56:06   this to leo leport who's a real skeptic on mac break weekly a real skeptic about the vision pro

00:56:11   and my point is it's okay to be a skeptic it's a weird product in a weird category that apple's

00:56:17   never done before and they're trying a bunch of stuff but the point is first off they are trying

00:56:23   a lot of stuff this is not a half-baked product this is cutting edge you and i both used it it is

00:56:32   amazing technically it is an amazing piece of hardware so this is the world's number one

00:56:40   technology company spending years building a product that is basically the best product

00:56:46   money can buy to do this thing that people think many people think is going to be the future of

00:56:50   computing and that's why they're doing it is because they think this is a future direction now

00:56:54   are they wrong what are the it's a 1.0 product it's guaranteed because it's a 1.0 product that

00:57:00   you're going to look back in five years and go boy right like because just even if it's successful

00:57:05   because you learn things and the tech march is on but you got to start somewhere so regardless like

00:57:12   look i i'm not an apple investor right and i'm not an apple employee so i don't have that kind

00:57:19   of investment in it where i oh it needs to work because i need my stock to go up i i i'm not

00:57:26   coming from that perspective but like as somebody who is enthusiastic about the kind of march of

00:57:32   technology what a story this is succeed or fail because like start with what are the decisions

00:57:41   they made we've got now a clue about that with the june announcements and with our 30 minutes each

00:57:46   on it and they were very impressive but like it was a constrained environment extremely constrained

00:57:52   we were told what to do for 30 minutes it was not free form so what what is that broader experience

00:58:00   like what are the choices they made where do they fall down where do they succeed again regardless

00:58:05   of whether it's a success or a flop because i don't think we're gonna know right like even if

00:58:10   it's got a lot of of limitations it's a 1.0 product and i think they're in this for the long

00:58:16   haul so they're going to be a lot of hot takes right that that's going to happen but like the

00:58:21   big story here is it's an entirely new apple platform where they've spent a huge amount of

00:58:26   time building incredibly cutting edge not just hardware but like software user interactions

00:58:32   like the eye tracking based stuff i can't wait to see it and dig into it and see where it takes us

00:58:40   and that's why 2024 is going to be i think is going to be great because i'm not saying the

00:58:46   product is going to be great but i'm going to say the product it's impossible to look at that product

00:58:51   and conceive that product and not think of how interesting and particular and peculiar that it's

00:58:59   going to be and i don't think even apple understands because you never know until it's out there how

00:59:05   people are going to use it how software developers are going to dive into it the ones that do like

00:59:12   all of that is you can't even conceive of it until you start the clock and start shipping it

00:59:17   like there are just fundamental questions that we don't have the answers to like what is it like

00:59:23   to use it for one hour is it uncomfortable 30 say what is it like to use it for 32 minutes right like

00:59:32   we don't know we don't know like what is it truly like to watch a movie on this thing like is it

00:59:37   actually a nice experience like it looks like it would be but we don't know what is it like to

00:59:42   write an email you know like what does the keyboard like to use on this thing like there are just all

00:59:48   the things that we that are fundamental to the product that we do not understand yet and like

00:59:55   just this whole idea this this this idea of spatial computing that apple is trying to bring

01:00:01   to the world here right where this thing isn't just a media entertainment device it is a full-on

01:00:08   computer computer you can use it like what is that world truly like right an ipad you put on your

01:00:16   face what is that what is that like do you want to spend your afternoon moving your head left right

01:00:20   up and down like is it nice or is it not no we don't know these things that is one of the

01:00:25   questions that i really am curious about is if i sit at this this desk and instead of using

01:00:33   the display the 27 inch display that's here i use a big display or a great use case for me is if i go

01:00:39   visit my mom in phoenix and i sit at her dining room table with my macbook air but hovering above

01:00:46   it now is a giant screen that is my mac in vision pro would i you know could i do that could i could

01:00:54   i use it that way they say you can but like they say a lot of things right that's that's when

01:01:00   reality meets pr is that that's when we we get in there and we're like okay well here's here what

01:01:05   the issues are and i don't even i can't even make up what those issues are i don't know is there a

01:01:10   is there an amazing workflow where there's like i was thinking about like the fact that it runs

01:01:14   a lot of common apple apps i thought you know i i can do stuff on the ipad without having a mac

01:01:23   around i can do a lot of stuff not everything but a lot of stuff and i thought i haven't even

01:01:26   considered like what's it going to be like if i can put slack over here and calendar over here

01:01:32   and mail up here and like do my working on the ipad but i'm on vision pro instead like

01:01:39   theoretically i can do that but we don't know whether we you know you do that for half an hour

01:01:47   and you're like nope forget about it or whether it's something you could do for all day or half

01:01:52   a day or a couple of hours like yeah and and watching a movie and relaxing and doing playing

01:02:01   a game like we don't know we just don't know about about that because all we've people inside apple

01:02:07   know and maybe some people developers know a little bit more in the developer labs but really

01:02:12   nobody on the outside is going to know until we set these things up and use it for minute 31 on

01:02:21   we like what are the apps going to be like right like people have been dreaming this stuff up in

01:02:26   their minds for a while like what they're working in the simulator there is the opportunity for

01:02:32   experiences and applications that truly open our minds to what this world can be like i've said

01:02:41   this in a few places now so i'm apologizing for repeating myself but i am kind of coming to this

01:02:46   is this is probably the most important thing that apple has done in my time covering them

01:02:56   professionally because it is a brand new thing with large ramifications like the apple watch is

01:03:06   the only other thing that was brand new but it was never positioned as being a computer like that's a

01:03:15   different that's a different thing right right it's an iphone accessory and and also that was

01:03:20   10 years ago 10 years 10 years ago it was a very different time this is a computing platform yeah

01:03:26   it's a new apple computing platform completely new well i mean completely within asterisk i guess i

01:03:31   would say the last time that there was anything even remotely like this was the ipad introduction

01:03:35   and although the ipad was a lot like the phone the vision os has a lot in common but it's also

01:03:41   10 years on so i would say you could make a very easy argument that this is the biggest apple

01:03:45   hardware introduction since the original iphone and like the way that i have been thinking about

01:03:50   this in my mind is like it is adding the third input mechanism right so we had the mouse we have

01:03:59   touch we have eye tracking eye tracking which yeah i was over christmas when we were in Bucharest

01:04:06   there was some some of our friends were asking me about it and i kind of hit on a thing which is how

01:04:11   i remember it being and again as i said to them i have not dined out so much on half an hour in my

01:04:17   entire career as i have on that one 30-minute experience that i got right but as i've reflected

01:04:21   on it for the last six months one of the things that i remembered is like the move the eye

01:04:28   tracking almost when you get into the flow of it feels a little bit like mind reading it does

01:04:34   because you naturally naturally look where you want to interact with so the fact that you are

01:04:42   like oh i want to look at discord right now and your eyes will just go to discord and then discord

01:04:49   is ready for you to interact yeah there is so little delay between these things happening in

01:04:54   your brain it just feels like it felt like the device was just ready and working with me and and

01:04:59   that is very cool well it's reading your mind and the reason that it feels like it's reading your

01:05:04   mind is because like you're i mean people can look at your vision look at your eyes and and

01:05:13   intuit things from it but at a very gross level right like oh you're looking you're looking over

01:05:19   to the i'm talking to you and you're looking over to the left and you know you're bored or distracted

01:05:23   or whatever this isn't like that this is like nobody knows exactly what i'm looking at exactly

01:05:29   right it's only me because i i can see like it's it's a private like our gaze is at least i think

01:05:38   most of us categorize our gaze at least specifically as a private like internal thing

01:05:44   and the vision pro is like no i know i know where you're looking it knows what word you're looking

01:05:49   at in a sentence yeah that's next level which is why which is why the privacy stuff is so

01:05:54   important right because you can imagine bad apps and things building a profile of you based on

01:06:01   where your eyes go and that's gross that's really gross because they're trying to read your mind

01:06:06   but at a system level what it's doing is it's making the whole landscape around you in the

01:06:12   vision pro you know augmented reality space it is it is like your companion who knows exactly what

01:06:20   you're thinking at that at that moment and and i it's i don't want to overstate it but you are

01:06:25   exactly right that like you it's like you think about doing something and tap your fingers

01:06:30   together and the thing happens now what you're actually doing is you're looking at it and tapping

01:06:34   your fingers and the thing happens but there is a leap i think that our brains make of you know

01:06:40   thought to sight to action and by vision pro being able to take that that jump to sight it's like it's

01:06:48   connecting thought to action directly and i think that that is going to be the thing that surprises

01:06:54   people the most like i think that will be the thing that when people use it they will be kind

01:06:59   of blown away why is is the accuracy again if it truly is as accurate as our experience was

01:07:05   right and it does need to be for it to to have that effect um but it was very good when we used

01:07:12   it and it was that part in the demo where they kind of stopped telling you what to do

01:07:16   and it's a very clever trick that they play really well like at first like look over here and do that

01:07:21   and then eventually it's like just click photos for me and like you just go and do it like there

01:07:25   is a because it ends up becoming quite intuitive that's what i expect will be quite startling to

01:07:32   people how kind of how good it is um but yeah i i'm i'm very excited for this year i think that the

01:07:43   opportunities for content are massive like for us like i am so excited for what we will be able to

01:07:51   talk about like i am very excited about it i mean we do okay when nothing's going on but it's great

01:07:56   when stuff is going on and it's like even yes it's like even better yeah and you know my only thing

01:08:01   that was just like how long until i get one i'm like trying trying to plan this out in in my year

01:08:07   is the most complicated part but i will try everything possible in within my power time for

01:08:15   another visitor to to uh the united states i guess i mean that is my plan right like my plan is yeah

01:08:23   order one and then book a flight schedule a pickup book a flight yeah yeah the um i wanted to say the

01:08:30   one thing that um i'm most interested in seeing i'm sure there are going to be a lot of things

01:08:35   that are in the shipping version of the vision pro that surprise us that apple has withheld

01:08:39   that they perhaps will even mention i'd be actually a little disappointed if they're like nope

01:08:43   everything we showed in june is all that there is and the rest of it we took out i would be a little

01:08:48   disappointed i want there to be some more stuff that they withheld but the one thing that i'm

01:08:53   sure they withheld that i'm really curious about is is voice control because we didn't see any

01:09:03   indication of siri or anything like that and and when you start to think about stuff especially

01:09:10   what i think about is text input right but also you know more abstract commands in general i can

01:09:17   see how you can go really fast with vision pro with your eyes and with your hands but i wonder

01:09:25   if you can really take a leap production wise productivity wise if you can add your voice to

01:09:32   the mix yeah because they said it was possible but they they never showed it they never showed

01:09:37   anything right and tapping on a keyboard like if i want to answer somebody's text uh who sent me a

01:09:43   message i i will see but like i have a hard time imagining that my preference is going to be to tap

01:09:50   on a virtual keyboard instead of being able to dictate the answer yeah and and i i just will that

01:09:57   be iphone level or will there be some quirks and interesting things that may that elevated a little

01:10:03   bit because if you okay this is a little unfair but like if you have to break out the keyboard

01:10:10   and the trackpad they blew it right like that you you shouldn't have to do that like if you want to

01:10:15   be like oh i need to type a lot i'm going to bring out a bluetooth keyboard and go and i'm typing

01:10:20   into something and it shows up in the vision pro great great do that if you need to do that but

01:10:24   like i i if i'm tapping things out on the little virtual keyboard inside uh like there needs to be

01:10:32   some more so i i'm anyway i'm curious about how well that integrates and if it's just iphone level

01:10:36   siri or if there's some extra stuff going on there i'm digging around on the page and again this is

01:10:42   nothing wild but they're like to dictate you just look at the microphone button and start speaking

01:10:47   is one of the things on the page yeah baby see see and we weren't we didn't get to use that but like

01:10:52   that's the that's that that's that um mind reading thing again right which is you look at the

01:10:56   microphone and you give a command and then you look away and it's not it's not i don't know it

01:11:02   feels that feels different to me than having to sort of take a deep breath and call the assistant

01:11:08   to you ahoy telephone i give you a command now right and instead it's sort of like you just look

01:11:16   and go this thing and then you move to the next thing and it's just it it becomes part of the

01:11:20   user interface that's really interesting depending on how they execute it it's probably not long now

01:11:27   not long now not long now not long no it's uh i love that we don't really understand how the

01:11:33   rollout's gonna go that's also exciting but uh but like this month like weeks away if not days now

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01:13:56   fm it is time for some ask upgrade questions i was worried that there could have been a backfiring you

01:14:08   know because well they had to power up yeah it's they haven't been used in a little while so they

01:14:11   get shut off to save some power we shut them off at the end of the year but now they're back yep

01:14:16   back for a new year powered up the carbon neutral so we turn them off when they're not needed oh

01:14:21   yeah they're recycled 100 recycled lasers yeah they just fire around the container we just

01:14:26   they use them yeah yeah it's like uh yeah well it's solar power so we get the light from there

01:14:31   and then we generate the lasers connor asks i'm looking to upgrade my intel macbook air and i'm

01:14:37   looking at either the m2 macbook air or the m3 pro macbook pro cost is a factor but i also don't want

01:14:45   to hit a ceiling in a few years i'm on zoom all day for work with an external display then i use

01:14:51   xcode at night for my side project i travel about once a month on average so weight is a consideration

01:14:57   but not a huge one i'm mostly worried about performance what do you think connor should go

01:15:02   with jason well the key phrases i zoom into here are i use xcode and i travel about once a month

01:15:13   so weight is not a huge consideration and i put those two things together and i say especially

01:15:19   since you were coming from an intel macbook air you could look you could get an m2 air and you're

01:15:23   going to be fine you're going to be happy but you also are concerned about hitting a ceiling in a few

01:15:28   years and you're using xcode and you don't travel every week you're traveling once a month and you're

01:15:33   not desperately concerned about weight and so i'm going to say macbook pro i think xcode your the

01:15:40   performance is a concern for you and xcode means that you're actually using it pretty intensely so

01:15:47   that's where i come down is i think you could get an air and it would be fine but i think you're

01:15:52   going to be happier in the long run with the pro because of that xcode use and because the weight

01:15:58   isn't super sensitive for you yeah while i am definitely a team macbook air i do think in this

01:16:05   particular circumstance like if you can stretch to the m3 pro macbook pro you'll probably get more

01:16:10   out of it yeah the xcode was the flag for me if he hadn't said xcode i've been like you know the air

01:16:15   is going to be fine it's going to be good enough for performance and battery and it's nice and

01:16:18   light and it's fine x kind of like okay yeah probably you should try to get a macbook pro

01:16:23   but pro m3 pro like he said yeah i do i i do still pause a little bit on and i am one of these people

01:16:31   just because how my circumstances ended out which is using the macbook pro with an external display

01:16:37   because the display on the macbook pro is so good it's almost like you're robbing yourself or

01:16:41   something which is fresh it's frustrating i can i am still frustrated that apple have not released

01:16:48   a standalone display with the same uh specs as the macbook pro display right with pro version

01:16:54   and stuff like that i think it's you're you're taking this beautiful display and closing it and

01:16:58   then plugging it into an inferior display which is what i do and so many people do it and i think

01:17:03   it's a shame but when you do use it uh as a laptop when you're traveling you'll have a great time

01:17:08   with that display yeah darian writes in and says what do you guys think of my prediction

01:17:15   given the max 40th anniversary on january 24th and accordingly the anniversary of the famous 1984 big

01:17:24   brother ad at the super bowl combined to the launch of the vision pro early early this year

01:17:29   what if we combine all of these things together apple will revisit that history of another super

01:17:35   bowl ad that introduces the largest audience on earth to the new vision of spatial computing

01:17:40   while calling back to the big brother ad and honoring the 40th anniversary all in one shot

01:17:45   well okay largest audience on earth doesn't see the ads they only see the game so that's the first

01:17:49   thing um it is the highest rated i think thing i mean the olympics are this year so i mean pretty

01:17:55   close in endurance uh defense the ads of the super bowl are are like an event they are an audience

01:18:04   unto themselves that's true i think that apple super bowl ad i think yes probably tied to the

01:18:08   40th anniversary and the big brother ad with vision pro uh i mean it's not impossible that

01:18:13   they'll do something like that i i would have a hard time imagining the vision pro will i don't

01:18:18   know i think there'll be an apple super bowl ad vision pro may be involved it may not be they may

01:18:23   just be like iphone we gotta sell more iphones because the iphone is where they're gonna make

01:18:26   their money but it wouldn't i my answer to darren is maybe like i wouldn't bet against it

01:18:33   but it's a very specific prediction right i will eat a hat you'll eat a hat i will eat a hat if

01:18:40   they do a big brother ad are you kidding me they are big brother now they are big brother don't

01:18:47   nobody mentioned big brother anymore like that is nobody mentioned they can't do that like the last

01:18:52   time we saw the big brother ad and what i think more people living today referencing to is when

01:18:59   fortnight ripped it off about apple about apple yep and i i don't i i i don't pro vision pro

01:19:10   i mean who knows but i would say uh remember the apple did the thing where they where they put the

01:19:16   ipod and the head earbuds in her ears you remember that where apple t faced their own ad no i don't

01:19:24   remember that oh yeah they did it in the ipod era they did it they did a version of the ad where

01:19:29   she's wearing the white earbuds yeah but that was still pre iphone right yeah yeah no i'm just saying

01:19:36   that they've they've tried that i don't i don't i don't think i think there will be an apple ad in

01:19:40   the super bowl and it might be for vision pro but that's about all as far as i would be willing to go

01:19:44   brandon asks what do you think the storage tiers will be for the vision pro i hope there are none

01:19:53   i hope it's yeah one configuration please don't make me choose right like it should have a lot

01:20:00   more than enough it costs three and a half thousand dollars don't make me choose like the

01:20:05   only things that should add expense to this are my prescription lenses and any accessories i want to

01:20:11   buy yes there should not be multiple storage tiers i think when it starts at 34.99 i agree i think

01:20:17   probably not storage tiers and instead you you got to pay for the lenses you got to pay for the cover

01:20:23   you got to pay for an extra battery or an extra cable like there are there are accessory issues

01:20:30   that you'll pay extra for but i i agree with you i hope i and i can't even conceive of what the

01:20:36   tiers would be but like the idea of like well for 34.99 you only get 512 but if you're really going

01:20:43   to use the storage the disc on the headset then we'll bump it up to a terabyte so i have no idea

01:20:53   why i what am i doing with it you know what like why would i need storage downloading a movie but

01:20:58   you probably just stream it right so yeah i i i hope not i i'm with you i hope not and kevin asks

01:21:06   my current television is a 50 inch 1080p plasma instead of dropping thousands on the latest

01:21:11   greatest television do you think i should just wait and get a vision bro i live alone so family

01:21:15   use is not involved oh kevin buy a television kevin yeah i think so like i think so because

01:21:24   then it's just all you can you can have it when you're cooking dinner when you're you know you're

01:21:29   not gonna have a play video games right like you know yeah you buy television honestly if you're

01:21:35   really concerned um and you've got a plasma now like you you get an oled for fairly reasonable

01:21:42   you can get a enormous uh regular non-oled backlit display that does hdr and has local dimming for

01:21:50   under a thousand dollars that's way larger than your current tv so you could also just get a nice

01:21:56   4k hdr tv and save the rest of your money for a few more years until this all gets shaken out but

01:22:02   i would even if you want to buy a a pricey oled i would buy a pricey old lead buy it just buy it

01:22:09   nice just just treat by tv television and like maybe yo self there will be used for a vision but

01:22:15   i i really don't think it's going to be the only way you'd want to watch stuff was with that i

01:22:21   can't conceive of i can't conceive of that no no and we also don't know the story about like what

01:22:26   apps are going to be there because like it's disney bob eiger says disney plus will be there but like

01:22:31   great point is your tv provider going to be there is netflix going to be there like what's going to

01:22:34   be there and are those going to be good and and that you get you're going to be tethered because

01:22:40   the battery only lasts so long like don't don't do it don't do it's too early there may come a day

01:22:45   where we all say you know what single people who never watch media with other people don't even

01:22:50   need a tv anymore because of the vision pro i don't think we're there yet and i don't think this

01:22:53   new version this first version is going to bring us oh they'll even be like oh there's it's it's

01:22:57   cheap enough that everyone in the house has one like a phone and we can share play and just watch

01:23:01   it like you know like there is a world in which that happens but sure years away anytime soon

01:23:07   yeah right if you would like to send us in your feedback follow-up and questions for ask upgrade

01:23:13   you can always go to upgrade feedback.com until next week you can check out jason's work over at

01:23:19   six colors.com and you can hear him on podcast here on relay fm and at the incomparable next

01:23:24   week does my am i am i getting fired from six colors next week well i have to wait and see

01:23:28   we're on a we're on a seven day rolling contract right now talk to my talk to my boss talk to your

01:23:33   agent you can listen to me here on relay fm and check out my work at cortexbrand.com you can find

01:23:39   this week until next week but maybe and i have to talk to look it has been known over the last

01:23:44   future has promised to know i just real quick aside it was one of the weirdest experiences

01:23:50   that i've had while listening to a podcast which was at the end of the episode of the talk show

01:23:55   where john sirocusa was on they were talking about me not being on upgrade much in december

01:24:01   and that was a very weird thing to hear people talk about was like referring to the fact that

01:24:09   john stepped in for me and also i was like i think they compared me to johnny carston

01:24:14   which was funny it was very funny to me but yeah that was like a strange thing but yes

01:24:20   i'm here now you can find us on mastodon jason is that j snell on zeppelin flights i am at i mike

01:24:26   i m y k e on mike.social you can find the show as upgrade at relay fm social you can watch video

01:24:32   clips of the show there that we produce every week we have loads of really fun clips the best

01:24:38   moments in the show every single week but these are also on tik tok and instagram and youtube

01:24:45   where we are at upgrade relay i am on threads is that i mike i m y k e jason is at j snell

01:24:52   j s n e double l thank you to our members who support us with upgrade plus thank you to our

01:24:57   sponsors the fine folk over at nom nom vitally and factor we'll be back next time until then

01:25:06   say goodbye jason snow happy new year everybody