566: Using It Is Wearing It Out


00:00:00   Your OLED screen will last longer if you do not turn it on.

00:00:03   - Unlike batteries, which will not.

00:00:05   - Yeah I gotta come up with a better, speaking of batteries,

00:00:08   I gotta come up with a better system for like,

00:00:10   when the power goes out, I have to wander all around

00:00:11   my house dealing with each UPS.

00:00:14   It's just, I wish,

00:00:15   I don't know if the USB connecting thing to your Mac,

00:00:18   that it'll shut itself down.

00:00:19   But I never trust that, I do it myself.

00:00:21   You know what I mean?

00:00:22   Because I'm always just afraid that it'll be like,

00:00:23   review these terminal windows and then it won't shut it down

00:00:25   or whatever.

00:00:26   So just, - Oh, yeah yeah.

00:00:28   - Shut everything down the old fashioned way.

00:00:30   If too many UPSs and then when the power comes back on,

00:00:35   I have to remember that like,

00:00:36   even if I don't want to turn these things back on,

00:00:38   I have to activate that UPS

00:00:39   'cause there's a router attached to it, right?

00:00:41   And if you don't have that router on,

00:00:42   nothing works in the house and.

00:00:44   - Sounds like a lot of work.

00:00:46   Why don't you just get laptops everywhere?

00:00:48   - Yeah, right?

00:00:49   Yeah, my laptops are plugged into UPS too.

00:00:51   (laughing)

00:00:53   (upbeat music)

00:00:54   - Do we want to talk about some gift memberships, John?

00:00:57   Do you want me to do the pitch?

00:00:58   Do you want to do the pitch?

00:00:59   How do you want to handle this?

00:01:00   - I have a moment of pause because I could do it,

00:01:03   but I kind of want to hear what you would do.

00:01:05   This is a form of entertainment.

00:01:07   - All right.

00:01:08   Here we go, kids.

00:01:09   Buckle up.

00:01:10   It's time to talk gift membership.

00:01:12   So our friend, my friend and yours, John Siracusa,

00:01:15   my best worst friend, worst best friend,

00:01:17   I always get it wrong.

00:01:18   I'm sorry, Merlin.

00:01:19   - You got it wrong twice.

00:01:20   So there you go.

00:01:20   - What's the right one then?

00:01:23   - Worst friend.

00:01:24   It's like best friend,

00:01:25   but the word best has been replaced with worst.

00:01:27   - No.

00:01:27   - For humor value.

00:01:28   - No, no, no.

00:01:29   'Cause that's semi-aggressively negative.

00:01:32   And I thought he was more--

00:01:33   - That's what it is.

00:01:34   I didn't make it up.

00:01:34   - No, but this is the Casey version.

00:01:36   The Casey version is recalling,

00:01:37   I'm trying to make a reference to another show,

00:01:39   but making it nicer.

00:01:40   - Right, exactly.

00:01:41   - There you go.

00:01:42   - A little more friendly version.

00:01:43   - We'll chalk it up to niceness and not poor memory.

00:01:46   - It's like ineptitude.

00:01:48   So yeah, my worst best best worst friend,

00:01:50   John Siracusa, copyright 2023 Casey List.

00:01:52   Anyways, he has put in a genuinely large amount of work

00:01:56   and I put in a slightly more than zero amount of work

00:02:01   in making GIF memberships a thing on our website

00:02:04   and our membership system.

00:02:06   So if you have a nerd in your life

00:02:09   that probably is listening to this,

00:02:10   I don't know how this is gonna work,

00:02:11   but hey, if you have a nerd in your life

00:02:13   that might be interested

00:02:14   in our plucky little Apple-related show

00:02:17   and maybe they're a little bit too frugal

00:02:21   or as I would call myself cheap to pay for a membership,

00:02:24   you can pay for a month or even a year of membership,

00:02:26   you can go to ATP.fm/gift.

00:02:29   You can gift this person a membership.

00:02:31   Now we never ever ever tell them

00:02:33   that they've been gifted a membership.

00:02:34   That is on you in part because we're lazy

00:02:38   and didn't have the time to do it,

00:02:39   but mostly because we wanted you to be in control

00:02:41   of how you message that whole thing.

00:02:42   You can print something out,

00:02:44   you can just send them an email,

00:02:44   you can drop a random link in an iMessage conversation.

00:02:47   I wouldn't recommend using Beeper,

00:02:49   but you can give it a shot.

00:02:50   But nevertheless, one way or another,

00:02:52   you can go to ATP.fm/gift to gift someone a membership.

00:02:56   Now, a couple of quick points of order.

00:02:57   You need to create an account with us that is free

00:03:01   for reasons in order to gift a membership.

00:03:03   You can immediately delete that account afterwards

00:03:05   if you so desire, or you could sign up for yourself.

00:03:08   You can stack gift memberships

00:03:10   because Jon did not do the bare minimum of work.

00:03:13   You can stack them, so if you are lucky enough

00:03:15   to receive several gift memberships,

00:03:17   they will stack such that when one runs out,

00:03:19   the next one will begin.

00:03:20   And you may not have to pay for a long time,

00:03:22   which would be super fun.

00:03:23   But yeah, ATP.fm/gift, it is all right there.

00:03:27   Jon has written an FAQ for you to read.

00:03:29   There's all sorts of wonderful and fun stuff

00:03:33   that you can check out, ATP.fm/gift.

00:03:35   The time is running out, we are recording this,

00:03:36   I believe it's the 18th, I don't even know,

00:03:38   I'm all over the place.

00:03:38   Yes, it's Monday the 18th, we record this.

00:03:41   These gifts are ready instantly, so you could be,

00:03:45   if you are the kind to celebrate Christmas,

00:03:47   you could be doing this on Christmas morning if necessary,

00:03:50   and write a very unusual URL on a piece of paper,

00:03:53   put it in an envelope and say, hey, Merry Christmas to you.

00:03:55   So go check out ATP.fm/gift.

00:03:58   Jon, anything to add?

00:03:59   - That was everything I dreamed it would be, Casey.

00:04:02   (laughing)

00:04:03   - I'm so happy for us.

00:04:04   - Classic Casey-less promotion.

00:04:07   - Yeah, yes.

00:04:08   - Yeah, the only thing I would add is,

00:04:11   the way it works is if you're listening to this

00:04:13   and you want a gift membership,

00:04:15   just text somebody who you think is gonna give it to you

00:04:18   and say, hey, if you're looking for something

00:04:20   to get me for the holidays, ATP.fm/gift,

00:04:23   you have to deliver the URL to them

00:04:26   and then they buy it for you.

00:04:27   That's how the system works.

00:04:28   They're not gonna be listening to the show.

00:04:29   How would they ever listen to the show?

00:04:30   They don't know about the show.

00:04:32   All they need to know is that this is a fun gift

00:04:34   that you would like, you who's listening now.

00:04:36   Give somebody else the URL, they'll get the hint.

00:04:39   - This is the equivalent of leaving the catalog open

00:04:41   on the table with the thing you want circled and dog-eared.

00:04:44   - Exactly.

00:04:45   - And this, I gotta say, as somebody who,

00:04:48   I listen to a lot of podcasts for which I am paying members

00:04:51   or Patreon supporters or whatever.

00:04:52   And so that is one of the, it is a great gift

00:04:55   to give somebody because taking something

00:04:57   that you're already doing in your life

00:04:59   and making it a bit nicer is a fantastic gift,

00:05:03   especially if it's the kind of thing that like,

00:05:05   the person probably would not have spent the money

00:05:08   on it themselves for whatever reason,

00:05:11   but you could make this thing nicer for them.

00:05:13   Like that is always the best kind of gift.

00:05:14   Like you buy somebody like a really good tool

00:05:16   for some hobby they're doing

00:05:17   or you upgrade something for them

00:05:20   that they would really appreciate

00:05:21   that they wouldn't necessarily spend the money on

00:05:23   or something like that.

00:05:24   That's like the category of great gifts in my opinion.

00:05:28   And this is exactly in that category.

00:05:29   Like if for someone who likes the show,

00:05:31   if they're on a member and you buy the membership,

00:05:34   like that just makes the show better for them.

00:05:35   So it's a wonderful thing.

00:05:37   Whenever there's a podcast that I listen to

00:05:39   that has a paid version, I almost always get it.

00:05:42   And I'm always happier with it 'cause I honestly,

00:05:44   I don't like having to skip ads if I don't have to.

00:05:47   I'd rather just have them not be there.

00:05:48   And any kind of bonus stuff that comes along with it

00:05:51   is very helpful.

00:05:52   - Indeed, atp.fm/gift.

00:05:55   Give a gift to you, to your friend, to your loved one.

00:05:58   And by doing it through us, you're giving a gift to us too.

00:06:01   So hey, thanks.

00:06:02   But anyways, yeah, check it out and we appreciate it.

00:06:05   Let's do some followup.

00:06:06   We have a handful of people that have written in

00:06:08   with regard to an Ask ATP last week

00:06:10   about Apple devices and OLED burn-in.

00:06:13   We start with David Jim Curcio.

00:06:16   I hope I got that right.

00:06:17   I actually did have burn-in issues on my iPhone XS.

00:06:21   I had it plugged in and on a stand at work

00:06:23   using it as an always-on display before that was a feature.

00:06:25   And fuzzy versions of the battery, Wi-Fi strength, and clock

00:06:28   became permanent fixtures on my screen.

00:06:30   This is, I think, effectively nightmare fuel

00:06:32   for John Syracuse.

00:06:33   - That's just how burn-in works.

00:06:35   And by the way, the reason they were fuzzy,

00:06:36   we didn't mention this last week,

00:06:38   but in the long list of burn-in mitigation techniques

00:06:41   that OLED screens use are something

00:06:43   that I believe plasma screens also use,

00:06:45   which is like they shift the image a little bit

00:06:47   from side to side so it's not always on at the same place.

00:06:50   I don't know if the XS did this,

00:06:51   but I believe the current ones do it as well.

00:06:52   So I always question the value of that feature.

00:06:57   And by the way, modern TVs, in case you're worried

00:07:00   that you're gonna be losing parts of the picture,

00:07:01   which you did back in the bad old days of plasma,

00:07:03   modern TVs over-parison the pixels.

00:07:05   So even when they pixel-shift it,

00:07:07   you aren't losing any pixels.

00:07:08   They're just shifting the image around

00:07:11   and not lighting up some pixels on one side.

00:07:12   The good modern TVs do that.

00:07:14   - Oh, so the physical panel is actually larger

00:07:17   than the picture by a little bit?

00:07:19   - By a little bit, yeah, too,

00:07:20   because it used to be in the plasma days,

00:07:21   like you do that, they have these various calibration tests

00:07:24   where it'll show you like this,

00:07:25   you should be able to see this rectangle

00:07:27   and it would put a thin rectangular

00:07:28   on the whole screen, right?

00:07:29   And you'd know if you had like the, what do you call it,

00:07:32   the overscan thing on, you'd be like,

00:07:33   oh, I can't see the rectangle, it's screwed up,

00:07:35   so you'd fix the overscan feature.

00:07:36   But the pixel-shift or pixel-orbiter thing,

00:07:39   it would cut off one of the borders.

00:07:40   But then when it shifted to like the left,

00:07:42   you wouldn't see the left border anymore

00:07:43   'cause it would be like a one-pixel line,

00:07:45   it would be shifted off the edge.

00:07:46   Now I believe all the good OLED TVs

00:07:49   have enough pixels to move it around.

00:07:51   I think they do that on most, like computer monitors,

00:07:54   I don't know if the iPhone does it.

00:07:56   It's a very difficult thing to find out

00:07:57   because they tend not to list it.

00:07:58   They will list the pixel-shift feature

00:08:00   under some branded name, but they won't always say,

00:08:02   oh, and also we over-provisioned by seven pixels

00:08:04   on all edges to handle this.

00:08:06   Pixels are so small now on Redis displays, it's hard to tell,

00:08:09   but on TVs, I think you can actually see this

00:08:11   if you look up real close.

00:08:12   - Yeah, and I think it's important to point out too,

00:08:13   like this instance of burning on a XS,

00:08:17   as David said, who wrote it in,

00:08:19   this was kind of creating an always-on situation.

00:08:22   Plugged in and on a stand at work,

00:08:24   using it as an always-on display before there was a feature.

00:08:27   So what this means is, 'cause with the iPhone,

00:08:29   you can tell it to never sleep the screen.

00:08:31   Like that's a setting that you have access to.

00:08:34   Any phone can be left on all the time.

00:08:36   I don't recommend this for lots of reasons,

00:08:38   but this is, again, this is what happened here.

00:08:40   And so this kind of shows like,

00:08:42   when always-on came out as a feature,

00:08:44   some people were like, wait, why can't they have this

00:08:47   like added via software to the older models?

00:08:51   One of the technical reasons why they might not have wanted

00:08:53   to do that or might not have been able to do that

00:08:55   is because they knew when launching the 14 Pro,

00:08:59   they knew this was going to be a feature of it,

00:09:01   and they were able to make decisions with like,

00:09:04   exactly what specs the OLED panel had,

00:09:07   what kind of OLED it was, how it was gonna be driven,

00:09:11   within what range it was gonna be driven.

00:09:13   And they were able to launch this feature knowing

00:09:16   what the hardware was going to be for it,

00:09:18   slash pick the hardware knowing that this feature

00:09:20   was going to be important for them,

00:09:22   so that they could have a panel that could get more use

00:09:26   this way without having burn-in become a problem.

00:09:29   Whereas on the older phones,

00:09:31   that wasn't necessarily possible.

00:09:33   As time goes on, like components change,

00:09:35   types of OLEDs change, and different ones

00:09:37   have different tolerances for this.

00:09:38   So, the modern ones where they actually launched

00:09:41   this feature in mind with these hardware panels

00:09:45   can usually take it a lot better.

00:09:46   - Oh, and I can imagine my point about the pixel orbiting

00:09:49   and my doubt about the feature.

00:09:51   Like, imagine you've got a rectangle

00:09:52   that's your little battery,

00:09:54   pretend that it's always full, it's just a white rectangle,

00:09:56   orbiting it by a few pixels, like shifting it over

00:09:58   and up and left and right by a few pixels,

00:09:59   all that's gonna do is make a slightly less burned-in halo

00:10:04   around the burned-in rectangle, right?

00:10:06   Like, you're not actually stopping burn-in,

00:10:09   you're just trying to spread it around by a tiny little bit.

00:10:12   So, I've never been a fan of that feature.

00:10:14   I'm like, I don't think this helps me.

00:10:16   Like, having a fuzzy burned-in rectangle for my battery

00:10:20   instead of a crisp one, the rectangle is still there.

00:10:23   But you know, people do what they can.

00:10:26   - Jameson Weiss writes, "I am currently using

00:10:28   an iPhone 14 Pro that shows no signs of burn-in,

00:10:31   but my previous phone, an iPhone 11 Pro,

00:10:33   did show noticeable burn-in around the menu bar icons.

00:10:36   I could very faintly but noticeably see the ghosts

00:10:38   of the battery icon and the clock in the Wi-Fi symbol."

00:10:42   Keith writes, "My Apple Watch Series 5 and iPhone 13 Pro Max

00:10:45   both have OLED burn-in, the watch has the complications

00:10:47   burned-in and the phone has the status bar burned-in."

00:10:51   So, it's apparently on the watch as well.

00:10:53   And then an anonymous person writes,

00:10:55   "Apple Store technicians have a diagnostic

00:10:57   that will check and tell us if the device

00:10:59   has developed a display profile.

00:11:01   The display profile helps mitigate

00:11:03   through software OLED burn-in.

00:11:04   When we do repairs such as rear system

00:11:06   or mid system replacement,

00:11:07   we must run an additional diagnostic during repair.

00:11:10   This test involves connecting the customer's original rear

00:11:13   or mid system and the repair device to a Mac,

00:11:15   which then allows us to transfer the display profile.

00:11:17   We do these steps because the display itself

00:11:19   does not have the components to store the display profile.

00:11:22   It is instead stored on the main logic board.

00:11:25   When this display profile test was first introduced,

00:11:27   we originally had to replace the whole device

00:11:29   when it was flagged because we did not have the tools

00:11:31   to perform the display profile transfer.

00:11:34   But now we perform this repair daily.

00:11:36   I personally have seen a display show burn-in

00:11:38   before performing this display profile transfer diagnostic.

00:11:41   Anecdotally, always on display has not led to an increase

00:11:44   in these display profile transfers that I've noticed.

00:11:46   Further instances of noticeable burn-in

00:11:48   have also been very rare."

00:11:50   - This is what I was talking about last week

00:11:51   with burn-in mitigation.

00:11:53   Basically, if you don't drive every single pixel

00:11:55   on the display to the maximum amount,

00:11:57   you have a little bit of headroom.

00:11:58   So, if the displays get worn out

00:12:00   and they're a little bit more dim,

00:12:01   the display can compensate by sending,

00:12:04   essentially, more electricity to that pixel

00:12:06   to make it the same brightness as its neighbors.

00:12:08   Televisions do this through a series of sort of,

00:12:11   again, they have branded names for everything in televisions,

00:12:13   but they do these cycles when the display is turned off.

00:12:17   I'm not quite sure how, but they do.

00:12:19   But when your television is turned off,

00:12:21   if you have a modern OLED television,

00:12:22   at some regular interval,

00:12:23   it does some tests to essentially recalibrate itself

00:12:26   to make sure all the pixels are the same brightness,

00:12:29   every single individual sub-pixel, right?

00:12:30   So, if you've worn out the red sub,

00:12:32   one particular red sub-pixel is not as bright as its neighbor,

00:12:35   they can figure that out somehow,

00:12:36   and they will give that red sub-pixel

00:12:38   a little bit more electricity than its neighbor,

00:12:40   basically trying to even it out.

00:12:42   The rthings.com burn-in test

00:12:44   that they've been running for years,

00:12:45   actually ran into this recently

00:12:46   because the test that they were doing

00:12:48   didn't allow certain brands to run

00:12:51   their sort of display update cycle thing,

00:12:54   because they all cycle based on like,

00:12:56   oh, you have to be idle for this amount of time or whatever.

00:12:58   And they were just running the screens

00:13:01   just 24 hours a day or something close to it,

00:13:03   so it never got to run the compensation cycle,

00:13:05   so it looked like the burn-in was awful.

00:13:07   But then once they figured that out,

00:13:09   once they figured out how to detect

00:13:10   when it's running the cycle,

00:13:11   they let it run its cycle and it was a dramatic difference.

00:13:14   And so, what this Apple store technician is telling us

00:13:17   is basically that, but for iPhones,

00:13:20   that the iPhone also can figure out,

00:13:22   oh, you've worn out these pixels,

00:13:24   and now we need to drive them a little bit harder.

00:13:26   And that display profile, I imagine,

00:13:28   it's like a big map of like,

00:13:29   hey, for every single sub-pixel on the display,

00:13:32   does it need a little bit more juice

00:13:34   than its neighbors and how much more?

00:13:36   And the fact that they used to just chuck the whole phone

00:13:38   or eventually recycle it or whatever,

00:13:40   because they couldn't just transfer the profile,

00:13:42   which is just data, right?

00:13:43   It's just they couldn't transfer it.

00:13:44   It's like, well, we have to give you an all new phone

00:13:47   because there's no way I can transfer this stuff.

00:13:49   It's good that they've introduced the ability to transfer it

00:13:52   but yeah, that's part of how you make OLEDs

00:13:56   quote unquote not burn in.

00:13:57   You're still wearing out the pixels.

00:13:59   Every time, it's like vinyl, Casey,

00:14:01   every time you use it, you're wearing it out a little bit.

00:14:03   - Jeez, you're peasy.

00:14:04   - Using it is wearing it out.

00:14:05   There is no way to use it without wearing it out.

00:14:07   Every time your screen is on,

00:14:08   you are degrading the organic compounds

00:14:10   and those OLED pixels.

00:14:11   But if you weren't driving them at the maximum amount,

00:14:14   you've got a little bit of headroom

00:14:15   and the display can figure it out and compensate for it.

00:14:19   - All right, let's talk stolen device protection

00:14:21   in the 17.3 beta.

00:14:22   Russell Quinn writes, "Trusted locations is kind of,"

00:14:25   let me get some context here, I'm sorry.

00:14:27   So one of the things that they've said is

00:14:29   you have an hour delay when you go to do certain operations

00:14:34   like changing your Apple ID password,

00:14:36   except if you're at a trusted location

00:14:39   which is allegedly like work and home.

00:14:42   So Russell Quinn writes, "Trusted locations is kind of flawed

00:14:45   "because most people will have those very addresses,

00:14:47   "home and work, in their contacts app

00:14:48   "right there in the My Card at the top.

00:14:51   "If your phone is swiped in a bar, et cetera,

00:14:52   "there's a reasonable chance

00:14:54   "that you're not that far from home."

00:14:56   Russell is implying then that the thief could go drive

00:15:00   or train or what have you to your house

00:15:02   or your work as quickly as possible.

00:15:03   And hopefully for them,

00:15:05   change your Apple ID password

00:15:09   before you have the chance to lock all of this

00:15:11   using iCloud on another device.

00:15:14   - We didn't have this in here,

00:15:15   but there was some other feedback

00:15:16   from I guess someone who has used the beta

00:15:18   that these locations, these trusted location things

00:15:21   are configurable.

00:15:22   It's not like it demands to be home and work

00:15:24   and it just pulls them from your address book or something.

00:15:27   And I think there either is some kind of lock

00:15:31   on those locations,

00:15:32   or maybe the person was saying there should be.

00:15:35   Lock meaning like if someone gets your phone

00:15:37   that they can't see or change those locations or whatever,

00:15:39   but I'm not quite sure how that'd be possible

00:15:41   once they have your phone and your passcode.

00:15:42   But we'll see how this works out.

00:15:44   For the people who are very paranoid,

00:15:45   I assume what you can do is just say

00:15:47   there are no trusted locations.

00:15:48   I always have to wait an hour.

00:15:49   So then you eliminate this whole issue.

00:15:52   But asking people to make the security

00:15:56   and convenience trade off is always dangerous

00:15:58   'cause they'll always pick convenience.

00:16:00   You kind of, if you don't sort of default them

00:16:03   to having like at least their home be a safe location,

00:16:06   they're not gonna like add it themselves.

00:16:09   They're like, why would I make my life more difficult?

00:16:11   Or they wouldn't, maybe someone would convince them to do it

00:16:13   but the first time they had to wait an hour,

00:16:17   they would get rid of it as soon as possible.

00:16:18   So, interested to see how this shakes out

00:16:21   when they actually ship this feature

00:16:22   and what the actual effect is

00:16:24   based on the defaults they choose.

00:16:26   - Richard Harris also made an interesting point.

00:16:29   You described a scenario where if my phone

00:16:31   and its passcode have been stolen while I am out,

00:16:33   but I have enabled stolen device protection,

00:16:35   I can use someone else's web browser within an hour

00:16:37   to log into icloud.com and find or wipe my phone.

00:16:40   However, with two-factor on in my iCloud account,

00:16:42   I cannot log into icloud.com from an untrusted browser

00:16:46   without also entering the six digits

00:16:47   that are sent to my trusted device,

00:16:49   which in this case was just stolen.

00:16:50   Since most people should have two-factor enabled

00:16:52   on their iCloud account and most people do not leave

00:16:54   the house carrying their iPad or laptop,

00:16:56   even if they have such devices,

00:16:58   how does the new stolen device protection feature

00:17:00   help in the most frequently cited scenarios?

00:17:03   I don't have a good answer for this

00:17:04   other than if you have like say 1Password

00:17:07   or something like that, you could potentially log into

00:17:10   your 1Password account on the web.

00:17:11   However, that also requires a very, very large

00:17:15   grid looking thing, which I certainly do not have memorized

00:17:18   and would also be stored in a 1Password on a trusted device,

00:17:22   which presumably has just been stolen.

00:17:24   So I don't have a good answer for this.

00:17:26   - Yeah, well, that's why we were talking about

00:17:28   whether one hour is the right amount of time

00:17:30   because there are solutions to this, okay?

00:17:31   So obviously if you're within an hour of your house

00:17:34   and you can get back at your house,

00:17:35   and if you're like us and have more than one Apple device,

00:17:37   like you don't need your phone,

00:17:38   you can use a Mac that is a trusted device

00:17:40   or other ways to get into it.

00:17:42   Also, there are backup codes.

00:17:44   I don't know if a backup code will be sufficient on its own

00:17:47   because I haven't actually tried this,

00:17:48   but there is a thing that exists

00:17:49   where you can get backup codes to sort of recover

00:17:51   if all else fails, and you should have those printed out

00:17:54   and stored in a physically secure location

00:17:56   that hopefully you can get to within an hour.

00:17:58   And then the final thing is, again,

00:18:00   if you can actually get home,

00:18:02   you can sign in from one of your Macs

00:18:06   that is already able to sign into iCloud

00:18:08   without going through the 2Factor stuff

00:18:09   because it's always signed in, because, you know.

00:18:11   Yeah, so again, I'm interested to see

00:18:13   how Apple pitches this.

00:18:15   The idea is that if your phone is stolen

00:18:18   and that hour timer starts,

00:18:20   hopefully you can do something within that hour

00:18:23   to get yourself in.

00:18:24   Obviously, you can't do anything

00:18:25   if you don't have a phone and you're alone.

00:18:27   You have to find somebody else

00:18:28   who's gonna let you use their web browser or whatever,

00:18:30   but if they do, depending on how nerdy you are,

00:18:32   there are various scenarios you can imagine,

00:18:34   like, you know, using some sort of a web VPN interface

00:18:39   to get into your house and remotely control a computer

00:18:41   that's already signed into your iCloud account,

00:18:42   yada, yada, yada.

00:18:44   Backup code seems like the most regular person friendly,

00:18:48   but even that's tough.

00:18:49   Like, what you'd do is you'd have those codes printed out.

00:18:52   You'd have them in your wallet somewhere.

00:18:54   You would not label them.

00:18:55   That's a little security tip.

00:18:56   Don't say, "These are my Apple ID backup codes."

00:18:59   Just put them on a piece of paper.

00:19:00   You know what they are.

00:19:01   Bury them in some pocket of your wallet

00:19:02   that you don't frequently use.

00:19:03   Make sure it's waterproof

00:19:05   and the ink is not gonna smear or whatever,

00:19:07   and then worst case scenario,

00:19:08   you can, you know, find a browser and log in.

00:19:10   Again, I don't know if the backup code

00:19:12   all by itself is sufficient.

00:19:13   It might also require a two-factor.

00:19:16   So that's, you know, one hour is what I think

00:19:18   the time is in 17.3 beta.

00:19:22   Having that time be configurable

00:19:24   might be interesting for people who care,

00:19:26   but again, when you ask people to choose

00:19:28   between security and convenience,

00:19:29   maybe things don't come out the way you want.

00:19:31   So we'll see how it goes.

00:19:32   Again, this is beta.

00:19:33   Hasn't yet shipped.

00:19:35   - All right, Mathos Wollard writes,

00:19:38   "One thing to note in the EU's

00:19:40   "removable battery legislation

00:19:41   "is that they explicitly carve out exceptions

00:19:43   "for devices that have a high level of water resistance."

00:19:47   So maybe batteries don't have to be

00:19:49   so easily removable, question mark?

00:19:51   - Yeah, I don't think any of this stuff is finalized.

00:19:53   I do wonder if Apple isn't currently

00:19:56   at that high level of resistance,

00:19:57   if they wouldn't make sure they're at the water resistance,

00:20:00   just so they don't have to do the battery thing.

00:20:03   Again, we'll see how,

00:20:04   we'll see what actually comes out of this

00:20:06   as a law or guideline or whatever when they're done.

00:20:10   - Skeen Harshley writes,

00:20:12   that is a great name, my word.

00:20:14   It is absolutely correct, or I'm sorry,

00:20:16   John, sorry, I'm sorry,

00:20:17   he says absolutely correct about Vext,

00:20:19   and the best part is someone ported it to iOS as Vext Plus.

00:20:22   This was John's beloved Palm OS game,

00:20:25   and apparently you can get it on your iOS device.

00:20:27   So that's cool.

00:20:27   - I immediately snagged that,

00:20:29   although one thing I noticed,

00:20:30   this is the part of any kind of retro type gaming thing.

00:20:35   I got it on my iPhone,

00:20:36   I'm like, hey, it's the same level as I remember,

00:20:38   and it looks a little different

00:20:39   on your iPhone or whatever,

00:20:40   and then I realized, oh, it feels totally different

00:20:42   when I'm swiping the blocks with my finger

00:20:44   than using a stylus.

00:20:45   And not only that sounds dumb, right,

00:20:47   but it's just like, what is my memory of playing Vext?

00:20:49   Apparently, a big part of my memory of playing Vext

00:20:51   is pushing little blocks with the stylus.

00:20:54   (laughing)

00:20:54   Sorry.

00:20:55   - I mean, I gotta say,

00:20:56   like having playing with my Palm pilot,

00:20:58   like having played Hearts and stuff on it now

00:21:01   in my meal board game.

00:21:02   - Not a Palm pilot.

00:21:03   - Whatever.

00:21:04   My Palm OS device that was--

00:21:06   - On my Nintendo.

00:21:08   - It was released after the Pilot 1000

00:21:10   and Pilot 5000 models, but not that much after.

00:21:13   Anyway, so a big part of the feel of what,

00:21:18   like what gives me the nostalgia and the feel of it

00:21:21   is the feel of having that stylus

00:21:23   and tapping those little things on the screen.

00:21:24   It's something that we don't have anymore, really.

00:21:28   Like you kind of have it with the Apple Pencil on the iPad,

00:21:32   but not really, like it's--

00:21:33   - The screen doesn't squish.

00:21:34   - Yeah, it's a very different feeling.

00:21:36   And what we have now is generally better

00:21:39   for almost every way.

00:21:41   Like it's generally much better now,

00:21:43   and I'm not saying we should go back to this,

00:21:45   and if you try an old resistive, you know,

00:21:48   squished screen like this,

00:21:50   you will almost certainly think it's worse.

00:21:51   But it is different, and so if you play these same games

00:21:55   on a touchscreen or with a mouse, they are different,

00:21:58   and it doesn't feel the same.

00:21:59   So if what you're looking for is the nostalgia

00:22:02   of how it used to feel to use a, excuse me, Palm OS device,

00:22:07   not a Palm Pilot, John, if you're looking for that feel,

00:22:10   you're not gonna get it right with like any kind

00:22:14   of emulation with a touch screen or a mouse pointer.

00:22:17   - And it was kind of, you know,

00:22:18   so the idea of direct manipulation,

00:22:20   I've talked about this in many past shows,

00:22:21   but like moving a block, in VEX basically,

00:22:24   you have these little blocks,

00:22:25   and they're actually very small on the screen.

00:22:27   They're much smaller than they would be,

00:22:28   like to be good touch targets.

00:22:30   - Moving that block with the stylus on a Palm device

00:22:34   feels like direct manipulation.

00:22:36   You feel like, especially since the screen squishes,

00:22:37   you feel like you're shoving the block off

00:22:39   because there's gravity on the screen.

00:22:40   So if you shove the block off of another block,

00:22:42   it just falls down, right?

00:22:43   You feel like you're directly manipulating the block

00:22:45   with your little prod, right?

00:22:47   When you play on the iOS version, which is a faithful port,

00:22:51   first of all, your finger entirely covers the block

00:22:55   and maybe a little bit of some of its neighbors

00:22:57   because the blocks are, again, not, they're not 44 points.

00:22:59   They're much smaller than that, right?

00:23:01   You can't really see what you're doing.

00:23:02   And when you slide with your finger,

00:23:04   yeah, it pushes the block over,

00:23:05   but by the time you lift your finger up

00:23:07   so you can see the screen again,

00:23:08   the block has already basically fallen.

00:23:09   It doesn't feel like you're directly manipulating.

00:23:12   It feels almost like you're swiping on the screen

00:23:14   in the vague area of the block,

00:23:16   and then a block goes down.

00:23:17   It is much less satisfying, but I would still say,

00:23:20   I mean, no one's gonna buy a Palm on eBay

00:23:23   so they can play this game.

00:23:24   So definitely check out the game.

00:23:25   I think it's free.

00:23:26   I don't know, I buy iOS apps without thinking about it.

00:23:29   It's either free or extremely cheap,

00:23:31   but check it out because it is a fun puzzle game.

00:23:34   It is very much like every puzzle game you've ever seen.

00:23:36   Like, oh, it's a little bit like Tetris,

00:23:38   a little bit like Bejeweled,

00:23:39   but it's not exactly like any of them,

00:23:41   and the levels are very clever

00:23:42   and they do a good job of teaching you the mechanics.

00:23:45   You should check it out

00:23:46   and go through the first 10 levels or something.

00:23:47   Have some fun.

00:23:48   - By the way, I tried installing it on my Palm 5X

00:23:50   and it crashed.

00:23:51   So I have to figure out,

00:23:52   maybe I had like the wrong version or maybe I had,

00:23:54   like I think I might have had too new of a version

00:23:57   'cause with the Palm devices,

00:23:59   like you went from these super simple 160 by 160 monochrome

00:24:04   and then gray scale screens over the following years,

00:24:07   you went to higher resolution screens,

00:24:09   much faster processors, color screens,

00:24:12   and various different OS and networking upgrades

00:24:15   and stuff like that.

00:24:16   And so a lot of the like kind of high-end Palm OS games

00:24:21   were really made for those later systems

00:24:23   and they don't necessarily work on my Palm 5X running OS,

00:24:27   whatever it is.

00:24:29   So I gotta maybe find an old version.

00:24:31   - Let's talk about Apple's required reasons thing

00:24:35   for certain APIs.

00:24:36   This blew up, I wanna say two, three months ago.

00:24:40   They decided that for certain APIs,

00:24:41   a lot of which I think made sense,

00:24:43   but some of which, particularly user defaults,

00:24:45   was quite surprising.

00:24:47   User defaults is the thing that most app developers use

00:24:50   to store like preferences for their app or apps

00:24:53   and things of that nature.

00:24:54   And they were saying, you know,

00:24:55   it was very, very scary what Apple was not really threatening

00:24:59   but saying they were gonna do that, you know,

00:25:01   oh, you're gonna have to provide reasons

00:25:02   for using user defaults and it's gonna be big and scary.

00:25:05   And since every freaking app uses user defaults,

00:25:08   it seemed a bit silly.

00:25:10   So apparently Apple's updated its required reasons thing

00:25:14   for using certain APIs and user defaults has new reasons.

00:25:17   It has three of them with very odd code names.

00:25:20   The first one, declare this reason to,

00:25:22   or I guess this is why you would use it,

00:25:23   declare this reason to access user defaults

00:25:25   to read and write information that is only available,

00:25:27   accessible, excuse me, to the apps, app extensions

00:25:30   and app clips that are members of the same app group

00:25:32   as the app itself.

00:25:33   So in other words, stuff that you write

00:25:35   that only you and your apps can touch.

00:25:39   The next one, declare this reason

00:25:41   if your third party SDK is providing a wrapper function

00:25:44   around the user defaults APIs for the app to use

00:25:47   and you only access user defaults APIs

00:25:49   when the app calls your wrapper function.

00:25:51   This reason may only be declared by third party SDKs.

00:25:54   This reason may not be declared if your third party SDK

00:25:56   was created primarily to wrap the required reason APIs.

00:26:00   So jump in, fellas, if I've got this wrong,

00:26:02   but I guess if I were to vend a framework

00:26:05   or a facade in front of user defaults,

00:26:07   then I could claim this to explain

00:26:09   why I'm using user defaults.

00:26:10   Is that about what this sounds like to you?

00:26:12   - I believe it's saying you can't, Jing,

00:26:14   you can't claim this.

00:26:15   So the way I interpret this is if you make a library

00:26:19   that happens to allow user defaults access

00:26:22   as kind of some other kind of--

00:26:25   - I see.

00:26:26   - Ancillary function than yes.

00:26:27   - Like if the SDK had its own settings, for example.

00:26:30   - Yes.

00:26:31   - It has some persistent state that's part of the SDK

00:26:33   that it stores and it wants to store them

00:26:34   in your app's user defaults

00:26:37   because it's running within your app.

00:26:38   - Right, but if you happen to make Swift defaults

00:26:41   as your library name and it's really just a thin wrapper

00:26:44   around user defaults without much other purpose,

00:26:46   I think they're saying you can't use this code for that.

00:26:48   - Well, I mean, I'm not sure about that,

00:26:50   but what they say is if your SDK was created primarily

00:26:52   to wrap required reason APIs,

00:26:55   not necessarily this API user defaults,

00:26:57   but you can't use it as like API laundering.

00:27:01   Like essentially you make an SDK and it's like,

00:27:03   call through this SDK and we'll get a name of your API,

00:27:05   any other required reason APIs.

00:27:07   It's interesting, I mean, the first one that Casey read

00:27:10   was the one that I was complaining about

00:27:11   back before I realized this doesn't apply to Mac apps yet.

00:27:14   Was that, hey, app groups, it's an Apple concept.

00:27:18   Everyone uses it.

00:27:18   It's having a shared user default in my app groups

00:27:21   is a huge use case.

00:27:22   So finally they addressed that, so that's great.

00:27:25   The third party one I really didn't expect them to do,

00:27:27   but I guess it's been so long

00:27:29   and they've gotten so much feedback that they realize

00:27:31   a lot of people are in this situation

00:27:32   and they use a third party SDK.

00:27:33   That SDK has some setting somewhere that it persists

00:27:37   and it's gonna persist them in your app's user defaults.

00:27:40   'Cause that's like where else would it put them?

00:27:42   So they have to allow that.

00:27:44   And I think this bottom part is,

00:27:46   I guess preventing it from being an API laundering thing.

00:27:50   Maybe it's like a third party SDK

00:27:53   for just wrapping user defaults.

00:27:55   I don't see why that would be banned,

00:27:57   but reading this language,

00:27:58   it makes it seem like it would be.

00:27:59   'Cause it's like, well, it's only exists,

00:28:01   it's a library, a convenience library around user defaults.

00:28:04   But what are you using it for?

00:28:06   To read and write your own apps user defaults.

00:28:08   Like that's not laundering anything.

00:28:09   You could have done that yourself.

00:28:11   You're just using a library for it.

00:28:12   That's why I think the part where it says

00:28:14   create a parameter to wrap required reason APIs.

00:28:17   Not specifically the user defaults API,

00:28:20   but any of the other APIs that are on the list

00:28:22   that you have to have reasons for.

00:28:23   We're just listing the ones for user defaults

00:28:24   because it was the most egregious one

00:28:26   in the original list of APIs

00:28:29   because everybody's app uses it.

00:28:31   And it was so restrictive

00:28:32   that you just couldn't do basic app things.

00:28:34   So they're addressing that here.

00:28:36   - Yeah, and when this first was announced,

00:28:38   I believe in the late summer, early fall,

00:28:41   when we did talk about it,

00:28:43   and I believe I said the same point then,

00:28:45   so I'll be quick this time,

00:28:46   but we don't usually know the level of trickery

00:28:51   and scamminess that apps try to pull off

00:28:55   to try to track people and do creepy stuff.

00:28:58   And so whenever we see stuff like this from Apple,

00:29:01   some kind of weird new privacy or security requirement

00:29:04   that it seems like it shouldn't be necessary

00:29:07   or it seems like unnecessarily persnickety,

00:29:10   generally the reason is this has been abused

00:29:14   or is being abused for some kind of creepy thing

00:29:17   and we just don't necessarily know about it

00:29:18   or can't quite figure out how could this be abused.

00:29:22   So in this case, I'm sure they added these things carefully

00:29:27   with their inscrutable numbers.

00:29:29   Why are these numbered the way they are?

00:29:31   I don't know.

00:29:32   But whatever the reason is

00:29:34   behind this obtuse requirement they're creating here,

00:29:38   it is probably because it was actively

00:29:40   being exploited in the wild.

00:29:42   So every single word of this,

00:29:44   like every little clause, every condition, every exclusion,

00:29:49   I guarantee you it was because

00:29:51   somebody was being tricky with this stuff.

00:29:54   - And then finally, declare this reason

00:29:56   to access user defaults and read the blah, blah, blah key

00:29:58   to retrieve the managed app configuration set by MDM,

00:30:01   mobile device management,

00:30:03   or to set the yada, yada, yada key

00:30:05   to store feedback information to be queried over MDM

00:30:08   as described in the Apple mobile device

00:30:10   management protocol reference documentation.

00:30:12   - Yeah, so these reasons,

00:30:13   I mean, again, we're just focusing on user defaults.

00:30:15   We'll put a link in the show notes to all the new reasons,

00:30:17   but there are a ton of them.

00:30:18   And it's been a while since we talked about this,

00:30:20   but this just shows how thorough Apple has been

00:30:23   in making sure that all the use cases

00:30:26   that they got feedback about are addressed.

00:30:29   So just plain old user defaults.

00:30:31   There's the one thing that I thought of,

00:30:33   which is just obvious, app groups, right?

00:30:35   Then there's a third party SDK thing,

00:30:36   which we didn't even discuss last time.

00:30:37   Then there's the MDM thing,

00:30:38   which we definitely didn't discuss this time,

00:30:40   but you can just see, you can say,

00:30:41   oh, you look at that,

00:30:42   oh, I see how that could affect people.

00:30:44   Oh, I see how that could, you know,

00:30:45   how many people have their own apps

00:30:48   that they distribute over MDM to their corporate devices

00:30:51   that are owned by their company?

00:30:52   And they're like, well, our thing doesn't work anymore

00:30:54   because we access user defaults

00:30:56   and we do it through the MDM thing.

00:30:57   And no one who doesn't have an MDM distributed app

00:31:00   is thinking of that, but so many apps out there do that.

00:31:02   So this, Apple took a long time to come up with this list,

00:31:06   but it seems like they've addressed a lot of stuff.

00:31:08   Now I'm sure there's still stuff that they missed,

00:31:09   but this is a much bigger expansion

00:31:12   than I thought they would have.

00:31:13   Again, look at the full list.

00:31:14   This is just user defaults, but like I expected,

00:31:17   maybe, maybe they'd allow app groups,

00:31:19   but they added much more above and beyond that.

00:31:21   So I hope this is now at the level where,

00:31:25   let's say 98% of the apps fit within it.

00:31:27   It's still, I don't think they've changed anything

00:31:30   about the strictness of it.

00:31:31   I think there's some kind of timeline of like,

00:31:32   well, it'll be advisory for a while,

00:31:34   but then eventually they'll require it.

00:31:36   But Apple's usually pretty good about not coming up

00:31:39   with a new set of requirements and making it mandatory

00:31:41   on day one and just destroying their entire Apple ecosystem.

00:31:44   They'll do it slowly and hopefully get to the point

00:31:48   where everybody's on board.

00:31:49   And again, crossing my fingers,

00:31:51   this still does not apply to Mac apps.

00:31:52   I hope it never does.

00:31:53   Please, Apple, leave the Mac alone.

00:31:55   (both laughing)

00:31:57   - Also, real-time follow-up from who?

00:31:59   Someone in the chat, I've already lost where it was.

00:32:03   MTZ Federico pointed out that if you don't have an iPhone

00:32:08   or other Apple device to use Find My,

00:32:10   you can use Find Devices on iCloud.com.

00:32:12   When you sign in, you might be asked

00:32:15   to enter a verification code sent to a trusted device.

00:32:17   If you lost your only trusted device

00:32:19   or otherwise can't get the code,

00:32:20   select the Find Devices button instead of entering a code.

00:32:23   I don't really know what that means

00:32:24   and I don't have the ability to research it right this second

00:32:26   but apparently they have a plan for you

00:32:29   if you are in that situation.

00:32:30   And this does not seem to indicate

00:32:33   that you need a backup code.

00:32:34   So I'm not really sure what the situation is here

00:32:36   but it's apparently been at least considered.

00:32:39   - Yeah, these are all things we never wanna find out.

00:32:41   And unlike restoring from your backups,

00:32:43   you can't, it's not easy to safely rehearse this.

00:32:46   Like I wouldn't, like if you rehearse it

00:32:47   and you find a problem with your system, guess what?

00:32:49   You just intentionally lock yourself

00:32:50   out of your own Apple ID forever.

00:32:52   So don't maybe test this to the limit.

00:32:56   But I guess, you know, it's up to Apple

00:32:58   to try to communicate this to people and say,

00:32:59   "Here's what you need to do to be safe."

00:33:01   Right now, it's not entirely clear.

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00:35:19   - A lot of stuff happened today.

00:35:23   Generally speaking, this is a little inside baseball,

00:35:25   but generally speaking, the morning that we record ATP,

00:35:27   I like to go somewhere else to work.

00:35:29   You know, oftentimes it's, you know,

00:35:31   the grocery store that I like Wegmans

00:35:32   or maybe it'll be a library or something.

00:35:34   And I'll sit there and I'll read through all the links

00:35:36   and make sure and watch all the videos,

00:35:37   make sure I know what the heck it is

00:35:39   I'm gonna talk about that night.

00:35:40   And I typically do that, you know,

00:35:41   from like eight in the morning until roughly lunchtime.

00:35:45   And then at that point I consider myself

00:35:46   having done the research and job well done.

00:35:48   Pat on the back for me.

00:35:50   Well, all sorts of broke stuff broke today.

00:35:52   And so I'm shooting from the hip a little bit at this point,

00:35:55   but here we go.

00:35:56   And let's start with what happened at something like

00:35:59   nine o'clock in the morning, Eastern time.

00:36:01   It was broken, I think specifically to 9to5 Mac

00:36:05   or at least in part to 9to5 Mac,

00:36:07   but 9to5 Mac wrote that Apple is pausing sales

00:36:12   of the Apple Watch Series 9 and Apple Watch Ultra 2

00:36:15   in the United States due to a patent dispute.

00:36:17   And there had been rumblings about this in the past.

00:36:19   I don't think we ever talked about it on the show,

00:36:22   but in short, there is a company whose name

00:36:25   I don't have in front of me,

00:36:26   but I believe begins with an M,

00:36:27   that has patents on how to do blood oxygen detection.

00:36:31   And they have claimed that Apple

00:36:34   is infringing on those patents.

00:36:36   And I guess it's going through the courts

00:36:38   and that's not going as quick as this company wants.

00:36:40   So they appealed to some other organization,

00:36:44   the International Trade Commission, there you go,

00:36:46   that has said, okay, yeah, we agree with you,

00:36:49   other companies, so we're gonna tell Apple

00:36:51   they have to pause sales of the devices

00:36:54   that infringe on these patents,

00:36:56   which is basically the Series 9 and Ultra 2.

00:36:58   For now, as we sit here on Monday the 18th,

00:37:01   they can still sell them through other retailers,

00:37:04   so like Amazon and Best Buy, for example.

00:37:06   They can still sell these devices,

00:37:09   but it is possible that around Christmas time,

00:37:12   they will also not be able to sell these devices.

00:37:14   So it's a big mess and I'm surprised it's gotten this far.

00:37:18   I don't even know what to make of this.

00:37:20   - I mean, this is why we really haven't covered it

00:37:23   on the show yet as far as I am concerned,

00:37:25   is like there's weird patent claims

00:37:28   against companies all the time.

00:37:29   And then they settle and then it goes nowhere and it's fine.

00:37:32   Like someone pays some money and the lawyers make most of it

00:37:35   and it's in, like all use of patents,

00:37:38   it's just a tax on everybody

00:37:40   and it doesn't really protect anybody from anything.

00:37:42   And the lawyers make out with all the money, the end.

00:37:45   Congratulations, that's the US patent system.

00:37:48   So a lot of good there, promoting innovation.

00:37:50   Good job, everyone.

00:37:52   So normally these cases, they breeze through the news

00:37:55   and they don't go anywhere because they get settled out

00:37:57   and you never hear about them again.

00:37:59   So when this stuff started with Massimo as the company,

00:38:03   when it started them making claims against the Apple Watch,

00:38:05   I think they've been making claims against the Apple Watch

00:38:07   for years now.

00:38:08   Again, we just thought, at least I just thought,

00:38:10   well, it's gonna fizzle out and get settled or something.

00:38:13   Like that's what's going to happen and that's it.

00:38:16   And so to have us be at the point now

00:38:19   where Apple has announced that like,

00:38:23   possibly as early as next week,

00:38:25   they might have to stop selling

00:38:27   their two flagship models of Apple Watch,

00:38:29   leaving only the Apple Watch SE in the current lineup,

00:38:34   that's substantially different news than we usually hear.

00:38:37   Like that's a big deal.

00:38:40   I'm guessing it won't actually get that far

00:38:42   or if it does get that far,

00:38:44   it will be a fairly brief shutdown of sales.

00:38:48   You gotta figure like Apple is pulling out all the stops

00:38:51   to try to get this resolved in some way.

00:38:54   But you also know that Apple is,

00:38:58   I don't think Apple is super willing to give

00:39:01   on threats of patent litigation like this.

00:39:05   Like I don't think they're gonna just say,

00:39:06   all right, Massimo, here's a whole bunch of money,

00:39:08   we're gonna license your patents

00:39:10   and give you whatever you want.

00:39:11   Like I don't see it ending that way necessarily.

00:39:14   What's probably going to happen is they're going to try

00:39:18   to get around it with some kind of technicality

00:39:21   and then there will be more lawsuits

00:39:22   and it'll prolong stuff and it'll just kick the can

00:39:25   down the road further.

00:39:26   That kind of thing can be successful for years.

00:39:30   So that's probably what's going to happen here.

00:39:32   But in the meantime, if they actually go through with this,

00:39:35   'cause all they said so far is basically

00:39:37   that they think they'll have to go through with this.

00:39:40   If they actually have to go through with this

00:39:42   and actually have to stop selling most Apple watches

00:39:46   in the US for a while, whatever that,

00:39:49   and look, it could be a week.

00:39:51   I'm guessing if it happens at all,

00:39:52   it's going to be very brief.

00:39:54   It would surprise me if it was more than a week.

00:39:57   But we'll see what happens.

00:40:00   Stranger stuff has happened, I guess, in tech.

00:40:02   But it will kind of be interesting as tech enthusiasts

00:40:06   and as a tech podcast, it will be interesting

00:40:09   to see if it does happen because this kind of thing

00:40:11   pretty much never happens in our world.

00:40:13   It doesn't make it up to the level of being visible

00:40:16   to consumers like this.

00:40:17   So this could be interesting.

00:40:20   - Yeah, so Apple released a statement about this

00:40:22   and you can see the glimmer of Apple's potential strategy

00:40:26   because you would think Apple's statement about this

00:40:28   would be all about how, usually Apple statements are,

00:40:32   here's the thing we're doing.

00:40:33   So first of all, this one's weird because it says,

00:40:36   here's a thing that we might have to do in the future

00:40:39   if everything continues the way it's going,

00:40:41   which is weird, right?

00:40:42   But the very first sentence of the statement

00:40:46   kind of hints at what they're going for.

00:40:48   It says, this is from Apple's statement, first sentence,

00:40:51   a presidential review period is in progress

00:40:53   regarding an order from the International Trade Commission,

00:40:56   blah, blah, blah, blah, right?

00:40:57   So it starts by saying, hey, there's a thing

00:41:00   that's under review by the president.

00:41:03   And if nothing changes and if their review period

00:41:07   goes through and we have to do all this stuff,

00:41:08   we're gonna do these things, right?

00:41:10   It's like, you know, Apple says,

00:41:12   Apple is preemptively taking steps to comply

00:41:15   should the ruling stand, right?

00:41:18   So what does that even mean?

00:41:19   I mean, I guess you could like,

00:41:20   well, get ready to stop selling stuff.

00:41:22   I guess there may be there's something they need to do,

00:41:24   but why issue a statement about, just so you guys know,

00:41:28   there is a presidential review period

00:41:30   and unless things go our way,

00:41:33   unless someone changes their mind,

00:41:36   we're gonna have stop selling Apple watches.

00:41:37   Convenient for Apple, by the way,

00:41:38   that they have to stop selling them essentially

00:41:40   on December 24th and 25th.

00:41:41   So they get all their holiday sales,

00:41:42   but they don't really get any post-holiday sales.

00:41:45   And of course, you know, Amazon and Best Buy and stuff

00:41:47   can sell through their inventory or whatever.

00:41:49   So the interpretation of the statement is basically,

00:41:52   Apple announcing to the world/president saying,

00:41:57   you wouldn't want us to stop selling Apple watches, would you?

00:42:00   'Cause it's kind of a popular product

00:42:02   and we're kind of a popular company.

00:42:04   And if you don't do something, Mr. President,

00:42:06   we're gonna have to stop selling Apple watches.

00:42:08   Doesn't that sound terrible for you?

00:42:10   So just, we're putting out this public statement.

00:42:14   I mean, everybody involved knows this, right?

00:42:17   But Apple puts out a public statement that says to the world

00:42:20   and you know, we're talking about it on this podcast,

00:42:22   something that everyone involved in this, you know, issue,

00:42:26   the review board, the two companies,

00:42:28   everyone already knows that,

00:42:29   but Apple is kind of putting it out in the world

00:42:31   to put pressure on the president to, you know,

00:42:34   overturn this or to, you know, whatever,

00:42:36   they have the ability to this review period of saying,

00:42:38   'cause either you let it stand

00:42:40   or you like counteracted in some way.

00:42:42   And I think Apple's hoping that the president will say,

00:42:44   oh, don't stop Apple from selling Apple watch.

00:42:46   They're a big, important company

00:42:47   and they make a lot of money.

00:42:49   I'm not quite sure how the system works.

00:42:50   I don't pay too much attention to patent law.

00:42:52   I'm not a lawyer.

00:42:53   I hate patents with a passion.

00:42:55   I'm not sure that gambit is going to work,

00:42:57   especially because Apple put out the statement.

00:43:00   If Apple wanted to do this,

00:43:01   they should be working back channels,

00:43:02   not running to the press because that never helps.

00:43:04   (laughing)

00:43:06   - I mean, you can assume they probably

00:43:07   have tried that already.

00:43:09   - Right, this is like the last ditch thing of like saying,

00:43:11   hey world, we're gonna have to stop selling Apple watches

00:43:13   for dumb patent reasons.

00:43:14   And this kind of is related to yesterday's last episode

00:43:18   where we were saying that Apple is a US company

00:43:20   and they are subject to US laws.

00:43:22   And sometimes there are those laws that they don't like,

00:43:25   like laws about handing things over to the government,

00:43:27   or in this case, patent laws.

00:43:28   Apple patents everything because as a big company,

00:43:31   they have to.

00:43:32   The system we have is you have to participate in it.

00:43:36   You don't get to be the size of Apple

00:43:37   if you don't patent everything under the sun.

00:43:39   A lot of the times you're patenting all this bogus stuff

00:43:42   and so you can use it as defense against other people

00:43:44   using their bogus patents against you.

00:43:45   And this war of mutually assured destruction,

00:43:48   which is totally pointless and stifles innovation

00:43:50   and the only people it makes happy are lawyers.

00:43:53   It's terrible, but it is the system

00:43:54   that we currently have.

00:43:55   And Apple sure as hell participates in that system.

00:43:58   It's kind of a bummer for Apple.

00:44:00   In this case, it seems like they don't have enough patents

00:44:02   to retaliate against Massimo

00:44:04   and Massimo's playing hardball

00:44:05   and it's not being bought off at the price

00:44:07   Apple thinks is reasonable.

00:44:09   So it's a game of chicken now.

00:44:10   It's like, do you, people and the government of the US,

00:44:14   really want Apple to stop selling

00:44:16   its two flagship Apple watches indefinitely

00:44:19   because of some company you've never heard of

00:44:20   with some super dumb patent?

00:44:22   You don't want that to happen, do you?

00:44:23   And Apple is not currently lobbying for reforming patent law

00:44:27   and I'm not sure if they even would

00:44:28   because again, Apple participates so much in this system

00:44:30   that it's hard to know whether they like it or not,

00:44:33   but they have to participate in the system.

00:44:35   It would be great if they lobbied for reform

00:44:38   on software patents and reform on patents in general,

00:44:40   but that is an uphill battle

00:44:42   with lots of forces going in the other direction.

00:44:44   It doesn't seem like Apple has much appetite for that.

00:44:46   So here we are, they're just out there saying,

00:44:49   I know we have a stupid system

00:44:51   and we tried to settle our way out of this.

00:44:53   Now we're doing, making a last ditch sort of plea

00:44:58   to anyone who can overturn this and say,

00:45:01   how about just let's not do it in this case?

00:45:04   I don't know how that's gonna work.

00:45:06   One thing I think is for pretty sure,

00:45:08   Apple will not stop selling its flagship Apple watches

00:45:11   for very long.

00:45:12   I mean, worst case scenario, Apple just buys the company.

00:45:15   Like Apple can solve this problem with money.

00:45:17   They just don't want to.

00:45:19   They don't want, whatever Amasama wants,

00:45:20   they don't wanna pay it.

00:45:21   But believe me, Apple can pay it.

00:45:24   Whatever the amount is, Apple can pay it

00:45:26   and will eventually pay it if this goes on long enough.

00:45:28   So Amasama is betting that they can just drag this out

00:45:33   to get a little bit more money.

00:45:34   But in the end, Apple's not gonna spend a year

00:45:35   not selling its two flagship Apple watches.

00:45:37   They're gonna pay whatever it takes to make this go away

00:45:39   eventually, but they're gonna try everything else first.

00:45:42   And this is one of those things.

00:45:45   - Yeah, I mean, that's kind of the racket of patents.

00:45:48   It's just extortion.

00:45:49   I mean, that's like, that's again, promoting innovation

00:45:52   with patents, what you're really doing is creating

00:45:55   legal methods of extortion.

00:45:58   And that's, again, it's one of the many reasons.

00:46:00   - And it makes it so that only the richest companies

00:46:02   can even participate because it's impossible,

00:46:04   as we've discussed in the past shows,

00:46:05   it's impossible to make any technology product

00:46:07   without infringing tons and tons of patents

00:46:09   that you can't afford to license.

00:46:10   Like that is not, the purpose of the patents

00:46:12   is supposed to be for whatever the quote is

00:46:15   from the relevant law of the encouragement

00:46:17   of the whatever arts or whatever.

00:46:18   And it does the exact opposite.

00:46:19   It makes it so the only way that you as a small company

00:46:23   can have a tech product is if you get lucky and hide.

00:46:26   Because, and the big companies violate so many patents,

00:46:29   but they also acquire tons of patents to retaliate against

00:46:33   anyone and then you have patent trolls who are like,

00:46:34   ha, we don't make anything, so you can't retaliate

00:46:36   against us and it's just, it is the worst system.

00:46:39   And here we have, hopefully this will motivate

00:46:42   some patent reform or maybe give Apple an appetite for it

00:46:44   because again, Apple participates so heavily in the system

00:46:47   that I can imagine within Apple,

00:46:49   there are sections of the company that think,

00:46:50   oh patents are great, we just,

00:46:51   our patents are super important.

00:46:53   Remember when Steve Jobs was up there with the iPhone?

00:46:54   Oh boy, have we patented it, right?

00:46:56   They always sound great when you're on the side

00:46:57   of like using your patents to beat down other people.

00:47:00   It's not so great when it goes the other direction.

00:47:02   - And look at how well that worked for them.

00:47:03   Like it didn't even work that well for them

00:47:05   in the end of the day. - No, it doesn't work.

00:47:06   It'll never work, it's because everything is stupid

00:47:08   and everyone, all the big companies acquire tons

00:47:10   of these really dumb patents and they make it like,

00:47:12   Apple licensed the one click patent, do you remember that?

00:47:15   Amazon, for kids who don't know, Amazon.com,

00:47:19   the place that used to sell books online

00:47:20   and now sells everything, patented the ability

00:47:22   to buy something with a single click.

00:47:25   Which if that sounds dumb to you, welcome to patents.

00:47:27   And I believe Apple licensed it for like the iTunes store

00:47:30   or whatever, right, because that's the way it works.

00:47:32   It's like, how many dumb patents do you have?

00:47:34   How many dumb patents, that's why patent cross-licensing

00:47:37   agreements happen, I think Apple did a big cross-licensing

00:47:39   agreement with Microsoft, it's like look,

00:47:40   we have tons of dumb patents and so do you.

00:47:42   How about we just agree that I can use all your patents

00:47:45   and you can use all mine.

00:47:46   So at least we can ignore each other and just worry

00:47:49   about the other people who are constantly suing us

00:47:51   for patents and stuff.

00:47:53   And we don't have time for an entire show

00:47:55   about why patents are dumb, I'm sure people disagree with us.

00:47:58   See many past episodes where this has been discussed

00:48:00   including a couple on my old Hypercritical podcast.

00:48:03   Our position has not changed since then.

00:48:05   And especially, I think the entire Apple ecosystem

00:48:08   got a taste of it with the, what was the round

00:48:11   that came through and swiped a bunch of developers we know,

00:48:14   some stupid thing about audio playing or something.

00:48:15   - Oh, that was a different one, that was something like,

00:48:18   was something like home audio, something like that.

00:48:20   The EFF struck that one down, I think.

00:48:23   No, LODSYS was, it was some kind of,

00:48:25   I think it was an in-app purchase thing.

00:48:27   I forget what the details were, thank God it actually

00:48:30   never hit me, but it hit a bunch of people close to me.

00:48:32   Like a whole bunch of people you all know.

00:48:35   - And the small developers had to pay for it

00:48:38   and it really is like extortion because they come to you

00:48:40   and they say, look, we can destroy your company with this.

00:48:43   So pay us all the money you can afford to pay us.

00:48:45   Because they wanna get money, they don't wanna destroy

00:48:47   the company 'cause they destroyed the company

00:48:48   and they get nothing.

00:48:49   So they basically say, how much can you afford to pay us?

00:48:52   Like how much money do you have in your wallet?

00:48:54   Just give us all of that, right?

00:48:55   And so for smaller developers who don't have a lot

00:48:57   of their money, they'll say, okay, well, just tell us

00:48:59   how much is in your bank account and we won't charge you

00:49:01   any more than that.

00:49:02   That's the shakedown of these things.

00:49:04   Like for the big company, obviously they can't do it

00:49:06   with Apple 'cause Apple has billions of dollars.

00:49:08   They're not gonna get all of that, right?

00:49:09   But for the small developers, it's not like there's

00:49:11   a flat fee, like everyone has to pay $2 million.

00:49:13   No, 'cause they know no small developers can pay that.

00:49:15   But if you're a small individual developer,

00:49:17   they still want your money.

00:49:18   So like, can you pay us 30,000?

00:49:20   Can you know, and people would do it just to make,

00:49:22   but you can't afford to fight it.

00:49:23   - Yeah, 'cause the alternative is like, all right,

00:49:25   then you can try to hire a lawyer for $100,000.

00:49:27   Like that's, again, it's extortion.

00:49:30   It's just the mob, but legal.

00:49:32   Like it's exactly like, you know, hey, it'd be a shame

00:49:34   if that building burned down, it pays for protection money.

00:49:36   It's that, it's just that, but legal.

00:49:39   Like that's why, I mean, the patent, it's so,

00:49:41   now we're getting all mad, but like,

00:49:42   that is so dysfunctional in practice.

00:49:45   It's one of those wonderful stories that we tell people.

00:49:48   Oh yeah, well, you can be an individual inventor

00:49:51   in your garage and come up with a great million dollar idea

00:49:54   and patent it, and the reality is so far from that.

00:49:57   That is not how it works at all.

00:49:59   Like the only people who have patents

00:50:02   are fools and (beep) holes.

00:50:05   That's it, because to get a patent,

00:50:07   if you are an individual, to get a patent

00:50:09   that is actually like properly written, properly filed,

00:50:12   and has any chance of at all maybe being enforceable,

00:50:16   it costs tens of thousands of dollars

00:50:19   just to file a patent like that.

00:50:20   So how many individual inventors in their garage

00:50:23   are gonna have tens of thousands of dollars

00:50:25   to pay a lawyer and file everything

00:50:27   and get it all written up and get it done?

00:50:28   And then once you actually,

00:50:30   if you actually get that patent granted to you,

00:50:34   that doesn't prevent everyone from using it.

00:50:36   That just gives you a tool that you can use

00:50:38   to sue people who use it.

00:50:40   Guess what, that takes more money.

00:50:42   So the only people who can actually get a patent

00:50:46   and then afford to try to enforce it against somebody

00:50:50   are people with tons of money already,

00:50:52   and chances are it won't really stop a big company

00:50:57   from stealing the idea and using it,

00:50:58   because big companies, guess what they have?

00:51:00   More money and more lawyers and more time than you.

00:51:03   And I know this is kind of making the case for Massimo,

00:51:06   but that's the reality.

00:51:07   So if you are a small inventor

00:51:09   and you think a patent's gonna protect you, it won't.

00:51:12   It just will cost you tons of money,

00:51:14   and then at the end of the day, it still won't protect you.

00:51:16   So that's the fool side of it.

00:51:19   And then there's the asshole side of it.

00:51:20   It's people who actually intend to deploy this thing

00:51:25   against unsuspecting people, 'cause here's the thing.

00:51:28   Patents are allegedly required to be novel

00:51:33   and to be not some kind of solution

00:51:36   that a layperson would have just kind of come up with

00:51:38   on their own in the field.

00:51:39   So this is the argument against many software patents,

00:51:42   is like many people end up allegedly violating patents

00:51:47   accidentally, because the thing that is patented

00:51:51   just became kind of common sense

00:51:53   to anybody who was in that field.

00:51:54   So if you're writing an app and you have a certain problem

00:51:57   you're trying to solve with some algorithm

00:51:59   or some technique, you might just come up with that

00:52:01   on your own.

00:52:02   The reality is that's how most invention works,

00:52:04   and simultaneous invention's a real thing,

00:52:06   kind of destroys the whole myth the patent system

00:52:07   is based on, but anyway,

00:52:09   so I'm gonna hold that aside for the moment.

00:52:12   Most patent infringement in most of tech

00:52:16   is done accidentally and unknowingly,

00:52:18   because so much has been patented by people

00:52:22   who are just opportunistic thieves and vultures

00:52:25   who want to be parasites on the world

00:52:27   and want to shake people down for money

00:52:29   because they think, well, I'm gonna stake out my claim

00:52:32   and get these patents and these things,

00:52:33   and then everyone has to pay me when they do them.

00:52:36   There are many ways to go through this life,

00:52:39   and I try very, very hard to be the total opposite

00:52:42   of that kind of (bleep)

00:52:43   and I hope most of you out there make the same choice.

00:52:46   Anyway, so the patent system doesn't work

00:52:49   the way anyone thinks it does.

00:52:50   The only people who benefit are lawyers and giant companies,

00:52:53   and here's a patent fight that is between two giant companies

00:52:58   who are both trying to extract as much money

00:53:00   out of the other as possible.

00:53:02   And these views that I hold on patents

00:53:04   and that John holds on patents are not super rare views

00:53:07   in the tech business especially.

00:53:08   Most of the tech business doesn't like patents.

00:53:11   And so there is no way that Apple is going to be amenable

00:53:16   to any solution that requires them to pay Massimo

00:53:20   for every Apple watch they make,

00:53:22   which is probably what Massimo is asking them to do,

00:53:24   and probably a lot, because Apple doesn't want

00:53:27   to be stuck with that forever.

00:53:28   Patents last a very long time.

00:53:30   I believe it's something like 20 or 30 years,

00:53:32   depending on whatever it's in.

00:53:33   Patents last a long time.

00:53:34   So Apple does not want to be paying this company

00:53:37   for every single Apple watch they make some dollar amount

00:53:40   for an idea that Apple thinks they don't deserve

00:53:43   to have exclusivity on.

00:53:44   Apple is very, very principled.

00:53:46   We know that.

00:53:47   We saw how hard they fought against Epic,

00:53:51   which maybe we'll get to that in a little bit,

00:53:53   but we saw the principled stand they take

00:53:57   about protecting what they believe is theirs

00:54:00   in the app store and the taxes they charge to developers

00:54:02   in the app store and the gatekeeper fees they charge.

00:54:06   They feel so strongly that, a lot of times to Apple,

00:54:10   they're a very opinionated company,

00:54:13   a very principled company,

00:54:14   and usually that is a very good thing.

00:54:16   You know with stuff like this,

00:54:18   they're not gonna just say fine,

00:54:19   we'll give you five bucks per Apple watch or whatever.

00:54:21   They're not gonna say that,

00:54:22   because they are probably so mad

00:54:25   that this company even thinks they deserve five bucks

00:54:28   from each Apple watch,

00:54:30   because Apple probably thinks they invented this stuff

00:54:33   or this stuff is common sense

00:54:34   or it shouldn't have been patented or whatever,

00:54:37   because again, that's how patents work.

00:54:39   They're all BS.

00:54:40   So I don't see Apple being necessarily willing

00:54:44   to solve this problem with money

00:54:46   if the solution with money involves

00:54:48   we'll give you five bucks for every Apple watch we sell

00:54:50   for the next 15 years.

00:54:51   - No, they would never do that.

00:54:52   They would just buy the company at that point.

00:54:54   - Maybe, but then what does the company want them to pay?

00:54:58   Because Apple probably hates this company

00:55:01   and they would rather probably bury this company

00:55:04   in lawsuits for years than to actually buy them.

00:55:09   Because again, they're a principled company.

00:55:11   - I'm saying buy the company jokingly

00:55:13   because they wouldn't actually sell an Apple

00:55:14   and offer to buy them.

00:55:15   But what I'm saying is that money can solve this problem

00:55:17   in many ways. - Oh, it can.

00:55:18   - There's no way they would sign up

00:55:20   for that protection racket where they'd pay that.

00:55:23   If they license the patent,

00:55:25   they would do it the way they license all their patents,

00:55:27   which is like, we just want to be done with you.

00:55:28   We never want to see you again.

00:55:30   Kind of like what they did with Arm,

00:55:31   not that it's adversarial,

00:55:32   but like getting the architecture license.

00:55:34   Whatever that license is,

00:55:36   it seems like they can now can do what they want with Arm

00:55:39   without worrying about that anymore.

00:55:41   Same thing with the cross-license patent agreements.

00:55:43   They just want this to be over and go away.

00:55:45   And whatever reason, Massimo is playing hard ball

00:55:47   and they haven't agreed on a price.

00:55:49   But I feel like they have to,

00:55:50   because there's no way they're gonna stop selling

00:55:52   the Apple watch, right?

00:55:53   They're gonna figure it out.

00:55:54   I mean, not for a long time.

00:55:55   I mean, maybe they'll do it for a week or a month

00:55:57   or whatever to put political pressure on,

00:55:59   but they're not gonna forego an entire year worth

00:56:01   of Apple watch ultra sales.

00:56:03   - So what do you think about patents, gentlemen?

00:56:06   - Not a fan.

00:56:07   - Not a big fan.

00:56:10   All right, I think we have time to keep on keeping on.

00:56:12   So let's talk about the next breaking piece of news

00:56:15   from earlier today.

00:56:16   Adobe is giving up on their 20 billion

00:56:20   with a b-b-b-b dollar acquisition of Figma.

00:56:23   The two of them have decided that there is no chance

00:56:26   this is gonna get through regulators in the UK and the US.

00:56:29   So the heck with it, we're gonna part ways.

00:56:31   Oh, and apparently Adobe owes Figma

00:56:33   a billion dollars in termination fees.

00:56:36   Whoopsie-doopsies.

00:56:37   I can't say this is terribly surprising to me.

00:56:40   And I honestly don't know a whole bunch about either company

00:56:43   'cause I've never really used Adobe stuff

00:56:45   and I've never had the occasion to use Figma.

00:56:46   - You've never used Adobe stuff?

00:56:48   - Not really, not in any regularity.

00:56:50   I never touched Photoshop with any--

00:56:52   - What about Acrobat back in your PC days?

00:56:54   - Oh, okay, well that's fair.

00:56:55   I didn't think about that.

00:56:56   Yeah, that's true.

00:56:57   But anyways, yeah, so apparently they're breaking up

00:56:59   and a billion dollars to Figma.

00:57:02   You know, you may pass go and you may collect a billion dollars.

00:57:05   - It seems so weird that they had such a big breakup fee

00:57:07   in what would always look like a risky thing

00:57:10   'cause Adobe, despite Casey not using it,

00:57:12   is a pretty well-known company

00:57:13   with a couple of products you might've heard of

00:57:15   like Photoshop.

00:57:15   They are the big dog in the markets

00:57:18   that they participate in.

00:57:20   Adobe has gobbled up a bunch of its competitors in the past,

00:57:23   either gobbled up or defeated or both its competitors

00:57:26   being the bigger and bigger dog.

00:57:28   And Figma was the first company in a long time

00:57:31   to start giving Adobe a run for its money.

00:57:33   So Adobe trying to acquire them,

00:57:36   you have to, everyone involved has to know,

00:57:38   boy, this might be tough to get past regulators

00:57:40   because in general, if a company like Adobe

00:57:43   started out as being an important company in their market

00:57:48   and just grew and grew and ate their competitors

00:57:51   and grew and ate and defeated their competitors

00:57:52   and grew and ate and defeated their competitors

00:57:54   and then wants to buy some,

00:57:55   the one company that has challenged them in ages

00:57:59   for 20 billion, you're gonna look askance at that and say,

00:58:02   this probably doesn't seem like it would make

00:58:04   for a healthier market.

00:58:05   And so they put a $1 billion breakup fee in there.

00:58:09   And as Daniel Jock had pointed out earlier today,

00:58:11   like I think Figma has like a thousand employees.

00:58:14   So that $1 billion breakup fee,

00:58:17   in theory you could give a million dollars

00:58:18   to every Figma employee,

00:58:20   which of course is not what's going to happen, right?

00:58:22   Because that's not how capitalism works.

00:58:23   But like- - Can you imagine though,

00:58:25   that would be unreal.

00:58:26   I know it will never happen.

00:58:28   I'm not arguing it will never happen.

00:58:29   But can you imagine if any one of these,

00:58:32   what did you say, a thousand people,

00:58:33   rank and file employees? - Yeah, those employees, yeah.

00:58:35   - Can you imagine if just,

00:58:36   they snapped their fingers Thanos style,

00:58:38   but then all of a sudden everyone's a billionaire,

00:58:40   excuse me, a millionaire, that would be unreal.

00:58:43   What a cool story that would be.

00:58:45   Unfortunately, it will never happen.

00:58:46   - I mean, I think they all stood to make a lot more

00:58:48   in their Adobe stock or whatever they're gonna get

00:58:50   as part of the deal.

00:58:50   So this is, obviously, yeah, all this money is gonna go.

00:58:53   A few people are gonna make a lot of money

00:58:55   with this breakup fee,

00:58:56   and most of the employees are gonna make nothing,

00:58:57   I would assume.

00:58:58   'Cause that's the way capitalism works.

00:59:00   But yeah, that's a big breakup fee for a deal

00:59:03   that if you had to place odds on,

00:59:05   it would be difficult to know which side to bet.

00:59:07   I'm glad they went against not knowing the details,

00:59:10   but my general inclination is competition is good

00:59:14   and the market that Adobe's in needs more competition,

00:59:17   not less, and I have used Adobe and I have used Figma.

00:59:21   And I do see how they compete with each other.

00:59:23   They also are slightly complimentary

00:59:24   because they come at things in a different way.

00:59:26   And the places where Adobe's strong

00:59:28   is not where Figma is strong.

00:59:30   But the whole point is people were using Figma

00:59:32   instead of the equivalent or non-equivalent,

00:59:36   non-existing Adobe tools.

00:59:37   And that's why the market was shifting a little bit.

00:59:40   It was like, hey, Figma has something that Adobe doesn't.

00:59:42   It's competition.

00:59:43   They weren't making a Photoshop replacement

00:59:45   that was better than Photoshop.

00:59:46   They were coming at it from a different angle,

00:59:48   really focusing on collaboration

00:59:50   and focusing on the use cases that for the modern world

00:59:53   that were, you know, lots of Adobe products

00:59:55   were created before the web existed.

00:59:56   So that really colors their lineage and their feature set.

01:00:00   And Figma is totally focused on a world

01:00:03   where we're all connected and collaborating on things.

01:00:06   So yeah, my instinctual inclination

01:00:09   and when any of these huge mergers come is

01:00:11   let's not do that.

01:00:12   Well, let's just let them go on their own.

01:00:14   And Figma is not, I think Figma can exist on its own.

01:00:18   People are like, well, who's gonna buy Figma now?

01:00:21   I don't like the idea that the only reason a company exists

01:00:23   is to get bought by a larger company.

01:00:25   I know that's a big thing

01:00:26   and there's some disinheming, hawing about this.

01:00:28   Like, oh, if they don't let this deal come through,

01:00:29   how are startups gonna get funded?

01:00:31   Because the only way startups get funded

01:00:32   is they assume they'll eventually get bought

01:00:34   by the bigger company.

01:00:35   It's like, that's not healthy.

01:00:36   If the whole purpose of making a startup

01:00:38   is to be eventually be acquired by the bigger company,

01:00:40   all you do is feeding people and ideas

01:00:42   into the bigger company

01:00:43   that just keeps getting bigger and bigger.

01:00:45   You can actually make a competing company

01:00:47   that makes a profit and pays employees

01:00:51   and makes a product and improves it.

01:00:52   Like, lots of the companies that are around today

01:00:54   started that way.

01:00:56   If they weren't, like every single company

01:00:58   that we talk about on the show would all be owned

01:00:59   by IBM or something and there'd just be one company

01:01:01   that's called IBM and it owns the former Microsoft

01:01:03   and it owns the former Apple and it owns the former Atari

01:01:05   and it owns the former everybody

01:01:06   'cause they just buy everything.

01:01:07   Like, hey, what's wrong with that?

01:01:09   - I feel like that's the current environment.

01:01:10   - I bet they would make really great products.

01:01:12   - Yeah, which is like the,

01:01:14   like whatever the big companies are that exist now,

01:01:16   it's like, well, no other companies can exist

01:01:18   except for these ones.

01:01:20   And from now on, the only thing you can do

01:01:22   is make a startup that you hope will be acquired

01:01:24   by one of them.

01:01:25   I think the last big one that appeared,

01:01:26   I assume we would say like Facebook and Google

01:01:28   were the last two big ones to appear.

01:01:29   And now it's like, this is it, this is the set.

01:01:32   And your company's just gonna get acquired

01:01:34   by the stupid abbreviations they have for it.

01:01:38   I forget what it is, like Famp or whatever,

01:01:39   it was like Amazon, Apple, Google, Microsoft, Adobe,

01:01:44   like just like these big companies

01:01:47   in each of their markets that are so dominant,

01:01:49   they stop them from buying everybody, right?

01:01:51   And if Figma can't make it on its own,

01:01:52   it's like, oh, we invested so much money,

01:01:55   the only reason we've been able to make this good product

01:01:56   is 'cause we're not viable as a standalone business,

01:01:59   our only purpose is to be acquired.

01:02:01   Well, that's a bad business plan, don't do that.

01:02:03   Being acquired, fine, maybe that can happen.

01:02:05   That's a fine way to exit for certain companies.

01:02:07   But if you grow to the size of Figma

01:02:08   where the biggest company wants to buy you for 20 billion,

01:02:11   you probably have a viable business on your own.

01:02:13   At least I hope you do.

01:02:14   You've got 1,000 employees,

01:02:15   someone wants to buy you for 20 billion,

01:02:17   you can't make money?

01:02:18   You can't figure out how to be

01:02:19   a profitable standalone company?

01:02:20   You have to be acquired or is it because your investors

01:02:22   are like, well, the only way we get our big payday

01:02:23   is if you get acquired?

01:02:25   Ugh, it's more distasteful side effects

01:02:29   of our economic system.

01:02:30   So I don't, again, I'm not being gleeful saying,

01:02:32   because they get these Figma employees,

01:02:34   you know, they're working within the system we have

01:02:36   and part of the system we have is one of the big payoffs

01:02:39   you might get from working at this company

01:02:41   is you might get acquired

01:02:41   and you might make out like a bandit, right?

01:02:44   And I just don't begrudge them that.

01:02:45   I think they deserve that

01:02:47   as much as anyone deserves anything,

01:02:48   but it's another example of working within a system

01:02:50   that I think is bad.

01:02:51   And we all have to work within it

01:02:53   because it's a system that we have,

01:02:54   but I really wish we would work to change that system.

01:02:57   And part of the system, like it or not,

01:03:00   are regulators that sometimes say

01:03:01   that a big company can't buy some other company.

01:03:04   And in this case, it was the UK and the EU

01:03:06   instead of the US, but you know,

01:03:08   that's also part of the system.

01:03:10   It's also part of the risk of being an employee

01:03:12   and hoping you're gonna get bought out by a bigger company.

01:03:15   That merger may be stopped by regulators.

01:03:18   And in this case, I'm not sad that it was stopped.

01:03:20   - All right, and then the last piece of breaking news

01:03:24   from earlier today is that data from test flight servers

01:03:29   from 2012 to 2015.

01:03:30   So this is before Apple certainly took ownership.

01:03:35   I think it was before Apple even said

01:03:37   they were going to buy test flight,

01:03:39   or it was before all that happened, I believe.

01:03:41   - Yeah, test flight used to be a separate company,

01:03:44   like a little startup.

01:03:44   It was much more limited and much harder to use,

01:03:48   but it was pretty useful at the time.

01:03:51   - Yeah, definitely very well put.

01:03:52   Anyways, there's a bunch of data

01:03:54   that maybe has been leaked.

01:03:56   I'm not sure that leak is really

01:03:58   the right classification here.

01:03:59   And maybe we'll figure about that in a second.

01:04:01   Uncover might be a better word for it, thank you.

01:04:03   But anyways, a bunch of data, like terabytes worth of data,

01:04:05   has been exposed or uncovered, like Marco had said,

01:04:10   from test flight servers back in the 2012 to 2015 era.

01:04:14   And so we're not entirely sure how this came to be.

01:04:17   We're not even entirely sure if this was recent,

01:04:19   but certainly it's become a bit of a brouhaha

01:04:21   over the last 24 hours.

01:04:24   Yeah, a lot of old builds,

01:04:26   a lot of old data coming to light.

01:04:28   It appears that this may relate to Amazon S3 buckets

01:04:33   that were not properly protected.

01:04:35   Maybe?

01:04:36   - That's the fourth hard problem in computer science,

01:04:39   is properly protecting S3 buckets, right?

01:04:41   - Right.

01:04:42   - I think the deal with this,

01:04:44   again, this story just broke this morning.

01:04:45   I think the deal with this is that this data dump

01:04:47   has existed for like a decade

01:04:48   and people are just rediscovering it

01:04:50   because people have short memories.

01:04:52   And it's like, it's in archive.org, right?

01:04:54   Regardless of when this leaked, how old the leak it is,

01:04:57   how much we forgot about it

01:04:59   and are rediscovering it 10 years later

01:05:00   because we all have short memories.

01:05:02   It's not great.

01:05:04   It's out there, right?

01:05:05   It's not the source code for these things.

01:05:06   It's binary.

01:05:07   So what you upload to TestFlight is a build of your app

01:05:12   that you're testing on people's devices.

01:05:13   It's not the final one probably

01:05:15   that you're gonna send to the app store.

01:05:15   Maybe it might be if they decide that build works,

01:05:19   but it's all the in-between builds that you send.

01:05:21   And so they're binaries, or maybe in some cases,

01:05:23   bit code if Apple Watch was around back then.

01:05:27   For tons of stuff.

01:05:28   And people are sort of digging through this giant archive

01:05:31   of binaries, trying to see if there's anything useful.

01:05:34   The link we'll put in the show notes is from Eurogamer.

01:05:36   It's because it's like,

01:05:37   look at these prototypes of games that never shipped

01:05:39   'cause they developed them, they put them out on TestFlight.

01:05:42   They decided they're never gonna ship them.

01:05:43   So if you wanna find some weird unreleased game,

01:05:46   including some unreleased flappy bird variant,

01:05:48   because that's what people at Eurogamer

01:05:51   are excited about, I guess, you could dig through this.

01:05:53   But this is the difficulty of,

01:05:57   leaving stuff unprotected on the internet,

01:05:58   and then when it makes its way into archive.org,

01:06:01   apparently it's hard to get rid of it.

01:06:02   Even 10 years later, if this really is a leak from,

01:06:04   or people say it's not a leak, they just crawled it.

01:06:08   But either way, TestFlight didn't intend

01:06:11   for this to be in archive.org,

01:06:13   and yet it is in archive.org,

01:06:15   because archive.org crawled the TestFlight site

01:06:18   and followed links and eventually found all this stuff

01:06:20   and slurped it all up, and now it's there.

01:06:22   It would be great if Apple/TestFlight could say,

01:06:25   "Hey, archive.org, can you remove all that?

01:06:28   "Because we don't own all that intellectual property

01:06:31   "and neither do you,

01:06:32   "so it probably shouldn't be in archive.org."

01:06:33   'Cause it's basically, it's builds of,

01:06:35   did you use TestFlight in that year range?

01:06:37   Did you upload an app?

01:06:38   Your app's probably in this data dump, right?

01:06:42   And you probably don't want it there.

01:06:43   I mean, maybe it's irrelevant, maybe you don't care,

01:06:45   maybe it's a build of an app that's long dead

01:06:47   or it's useless to everybody

01:06:48   'cause it only runs on all the OSs or whatever.

01:06:49   It's weird, but it's also a cautionary tale.

01:06:55   Check your S3 bucket permissions.

01:06:57   (laughing)

01:06:58   And it just sounds dumb, but like,

01:07:00   Amazon doesn't make this that easy

01:07:03   and they've worked on it over the years

01:07:04   to try to make it more obvious when you screw this up.

01:07:08   There are whole companies, part of their product

01:07:10   is they will go over your stuff in AWS

01:07:12   and make sure you haven't done something boneheaded

01:07:14   and yet it happens all the time.

01:07:17   Someone has an S3 bucket, which for people to know,

01:07:20   it's just a place on the internet where you can store files,

01:07:22   there's lots of imitators.

01:07:24   And they accidentally make it accessible to everybody.

01:07:27   And it's like, how would they not notice this?

01:07:29   You don't notice it

01:07:30   because you can't really get anything out of it

01:07:33   unless you sort of know the file name.

01:07:34   So it's security through obscurity,

01:07:36   especially if they don't allow it,

01:07:37   like essentially directory listing to use web parlance.

01:07:40   Like you can set the permission so,

01:07:42   oh, nobody can iterate over the contents.

01:07:44   You can't list what's here.

01:07:45   But if you know the file name,

01:07:47   you can make a request for it and you'll get it.

01:07:49   And the file names are really big and obscure.

01:07:51   And it's like, well, you wouldn't notice

01:07:54   that it's publicly accessible

01:07:55   because no one would be making those requests.

01:07:56   But if you have a crawler,

01:07:57   especially if that crawler is seeded with like,

01:07:59   it knows that you use like the app ID as the file name

01:08:02   and it has a bunch of app IDs from elsewhere,

01:08:04   then the crawler can just go through

01:08:06   and try all those app IDs.

01:08:08   The whole point is your S3 bucket

01:08:10   shouldn't be publicly accessible.

01:08:11   Random person on the internet

01:08:15   should not be able to pull a file from it

01:08:16   if it's not supposed to be publicly accessible.

01:08:18   There should be some authentication

01:08:20   or you have to be allowed to get that file like

01:08:22   because you're the developer of the file

01:08:24   and that's how you can get it.

01:08:25   But doing that can be a little bit annoying.

01:08:27   And especially with the efficiencies of S3

01:08:29   where you really don't want them to go through your server

01:08:31   or to bounce off your server,

01:08:32   you want them to go directly to S3

01:08:33   because that's one of the wonderful things about S3

01:08:35   is that it's available everywhere

01:08:36   and it's close by and blah, blah, blah.

01:08:39   People take a shortcut and they say,

01:08:42   well, no one's gonna guess this URL anyway.

01:08:44   We'll just make the bucket publicly accessible.

01:08:46   Or they accidentally make it publicly accessible.

01:08:47   But again, they never realize it's publicly accessible

01:08:49   because it seems like you can't get anything from it

01:08:51   without knowing how to get to it.

01:08:52   But especially automated computer crawlers,

01:08:55   they'll just follow links.

01:08:56   They don't know which ones they're quote unquote

01:08:57   supposed to or not supposed to follow.

01:08:58   So if they find an in, they'll just go and crawl and scrape

01:09:02   and pull everything out of there

01:09:03   and it ends up in archive.org.

01:09:05   - I mean, in all fairness,

01:09:07   if you set up a new S3 bucket today,

01:09:10   they make you jump through many hoops

01:09:13   to make it publicly accessible.

01:09:15   Amazon has learned, wow, people mess this up a lot.

01:09:19   So they, like you have to,

01:09:22   it is now so complicated and convoluted

01:09:25   to make any part of an S3 bucket publicly accessible.

01:09:28   So it's better now.

01:09:30   - People are motivated to do it

01:09:32   because they're like, my app's not working.

01:09:33   I keep getting an error on S3.

01:09:34   And they're like, they just bash AWS

01:09:36   until this error stops.

01:09:37   Like, oh, done, now the error's not,

01:09:38   I'm not sure what I did,

01:09:39   but now I'm not getting any more errors pulling from S3.

01:09:41   So I guess everything's fine.

01:09:42   And then, you know, fast forward 10 years

01:09:44   and someone has scraped everything out of their bucket

01:09:46   and it's in archive.org.

01:09:49   - As mentioned earlier,

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01:11:47   and back to the show.

01:11:48   - All right, let's do some Ask ATP,

01:11:54   and Tom Bullock writes, "What's the best way in 2023

01:11:56   to run an old version of OS X, for example, Tiger?"

01:12:00   I don't know, to be honest with you.

01:12:03   I know that Apple has a bit of sample code,

01:12:07   and I think eRambo might have put something together

01:12:09   where you can like use whatever the hypervisor is.

01:12:13   - Virtualization framework.

01:12:14   - Yeah, yeah, and you can very, very cheaply

01:12:17   and reasonably easily create and run a virtual machine.

01:12:22   I dabbled with this briefly like six months or a year ago,

01:12:25   and it was pretty good.

01:12:26   I would assume that the right answer is something

01:12:29   like VMware Fusion or Parallels, but I honestly don't know.

01:12:33   I think, Jon, you might be the best person

01:12:36   to answer this question.

01:12:38   - Best is the trickiest part here.

01:12:39   - Yeah, best for what?

01:12:41   - What is the best way in 2023?

01:12:43   Well, getting back to our discussion about Palm devices,

01:12:47   the best way is to use an old Mac,

01:12:49   'cause that will give you the authentic experience

01:12:53   of what it was really like.

01:12:54   For that definition, if that's your definition of best,

01:12:57   that's gonna be the best.

01:12:58   You need like a CRT, you need a blue and white G3,

01:13:02   you need, that's one definition of best,

01:13:05   but I'm assuming that's not what this person wants to know.

01:13:08   People wanna run it without getting an old computer

01:13:13   or dealing with all that hassle.

01:13:14   Here's the problem though.

01:13:15   All of the virtualization stuff that Apple offers so far

01:13:18   doesn't let you sign into an Apple ID,

01:13:21   which maybe back in Tiger isn't that big of a deal,

01:13:23   but as the versions advance,

01:13:25   not being able to sign into an Apple ID

01:13:28   really cramps your ability to do stuff with it.

01:13:32   Like if you're there, 'cause you're like,

01:13:33   "I wanna try out all the old apps and see how they work,"

01:13:36   and it's like, "Oh, I can't do this

01:13:37   'cause I have to sign into Apple ID

01:13:38   or I can't use this sync thing or whatever."

01:13:40   If you don't care about that, then yeah,

01:13:42   any virtualization thing will work there.

01:13:44   The reason people have made these virtualization apps

01:13:47   is because Apple has a framework for virtualization,

01:13:50   and if you can put a fairly thin app wrapper around that,

01:13:53   the framework does all the virtualization stuff,

01:13:55   you just have to deal with making an ICY,

01:13:57   I think people set things up and install or whatever,

01:14:00   so that's why you see a lot of these hanging around.

01:14:02   VMware, I think, still uses its own virtualization framework

01:14:06   from way back in the day.

01:14:07   That will probably be more straightforward

01:14:10   and more supported.

01:14:12   Even with VMware, there are limitations.

01:14:14   I have VMware and I have old versions of Mac OS X here

01:14:18   hanging around for some old software and some curiosity,

01:14:21   and it's not, not everything works.

01:14:24   Like if you expect it to be just like it,

01:14:25   if you had pulled out that old Mac, it's not going to be.

01:14:27   I'm not sure if it has the same Apple ID and limitations,

01:14:30   but definitely the graphics acceleration,

01:14:32   especially on old versions, super jank.

01:14:34   Either it doesn't exist at all or it exists,

01:14:36   but it doesn't work the way you expect it to,

01:14:38   or it seems slow, and if you like,

01:14:40   sometimes they all click there in safe mode

01:14:42   where there's like no transparency

01:14:44   and everything's really slow,

01:14:44   you have to figure out how to enable the GPU acceleration.

01:14:48   It's not straightforward.

01:14:49   So the reason I mentioned the hardware thing

01:14:51   is that really is the best.

01:14:54   You'll get as much as you can possibly get,

01:14:55   and even then, referencing what Mark was talking about

01:14:58   last episode, there may be issues with TLS and SSL versions,

01:15:03   which mean that you can't use the web browsers.

01:15:08   Like you won't be able to really use it like it was

01:15:10   back in the day because the world has moved on,

01:15:12   but the closest you can get is with hardware.

01:15:14   Everything else is gonna be in compromise.

01:15:16   So it really depends on what specifically you wanna do.

01:15:18   If you just wanna run some specific app

01:15:20   and it doesn't need your Apple ID,

01:15:22   and doesn't need to do any weird networking

01:15:23   that's not gonna work because of TLS upgrades,

01:15:26   then yeah, any VM solution will work.

01:15:28   I liked VMware.

01:15:30   I still use it.

01:15:31   I think they're going into a subscription model soon,

01:15:33   so if you wanna get the last sort of licensed version

01:15:36   that you can buy and use until it breaks,

01:15:38   run and get VMware Fusion now,

01:15:40   or otherwise look at all of the various

01:15:42   virtualization projects, but realize you're always

01:15:44   going to be taking some kind of hit in functionality,

01:15:47   which is a shame, until, fast forward a decade or two,

01:15:51   kind of like we run classic Mac OS,

01:15:54   you'll be able to run Tiger in a web browser

01:15:56   using some JavaScript thing, right?

01:15:57   But we're not there yet.

01:15:59   - Also, I mean, do the virtualization apps,

01:16:03   to the best of my knowledge,

01:16:04   none of them will provide architecture emulation, right?

01:16:07   So the idea is, for an old enough version of Mac OS,

01:16:11   if you are, say, running on a Apple Silicon MacBook Pro

01:16:16   or whatever, you're not gonna be able to run something

01:16:19   that could only run on Intel or Power PC,

01:16:22   so you're going to need something that can emulate

01:16:24   those processors, and in addition to virtualization

01:16:27   of the underlying OS, and I don't--

01:16:29   - Yeah, I was trying, I was trying to think

01:16:29   if VMware would do that for you.

01:16:31   - Does anything do that on Apple Silicon?

01:16:32   I don't think we have that yet.

01:16:34   I could be wrong, but most of the big solutions,

01:16:37   including anything that uses Apple's virtualization framework

01:16:40   they don't virtualize x86 emulation on Apple Silicon Macs.

01:16:44   So you can't run an Intel OS using Apple's

01:16:48   virtualization framework on Apple Silicon.

01:16:51   - Yeah, yeah, so VMware is, I mean,

01:16:54   I guess I'm still stuck in the Intel world

01:16:55   thinking old VMware will just run natively

01:16:57   on your Intel thing, but if you don't have an Intel Mac,

01:16:59   yeah, and the virtualization thing does not exist

01:17:02   for Intel Macs, it's an ARM-only thing,

01:17:03   but that doesn't stop you, there's tons of,

01:17:06   before Apple came up with their virtualization framework,

01:17:08   there are free ones, what is that?

01:17:09   VirtualBox is another free one,

01:17:11   there's one other free one I'm forgetting.

01:17:13   VMware is just a fancy, oh, there's Parallels,

01:17:14   which is another commercial one.

01:17:16   But like I said, all those options have some,

01:17:20   I've used all of them at one point or another

01:17:21   on Intel Macs, and they all have weirdness about them,

01:17:24   every single one, there's no one of them

01:17:26   that's gonna be like running it on hardware.

01:17:27   - Yeah, licensing is weird too, like a lot of the old OSs,

01:17:31   you legally aren't supposed to virtualize them

01:17:34   or aren't allowed to virtualize them,

01:17:35   or you have to find some pirated installer or whatever,

01:17:38   that could be both a pain in the butt

01:17:39   and not entirely legal if you need that

01:17:42   for some kind of compliance reason.

01:17:43   So again, old hardware, as Jon said,

01:17:46   the only major downside of old hardware,

01:17:49   besides having to have this physical thing

01:17:52   that you're running, which can be physically cumbersome,

01:17:56   I wouldn't say it's expensive, it's not,

01:17:58   'cause old PC hardware is very inexpensive

01:18:00   'cause nobody wants it, but it can be a pain in the butt

01:18:05   to get stuff on and off of it.

01:18:07   Like the advantage of virtualizing on your own computer

01:18:10   is that usually the virtualization intermediate software

01:18:14   will have some convenient ways to share files back and forth

01:18:17   between the two, between your computer

01:18:19   and the emulated computer or whatever.

01:18:21   When you're dealing with physical hardware,

01:18:24   it becomes a lot more manual of a process.

01:18:26   You have to do things like maybe transfer stuff

01:18:28   with USB drives and deal with the realities

01:18:32   of that situation and stuff like that.

01:18:35   Networking, as Jon said, networking can be tricky,

01:18:37   especially if it involves any kind of modern

01:18:39   security requirements like browsing the web at all

01:18:42   can be very difficult on old computers.

01:18:45   So it is a bit of a pain in the butt

01:18:47   to kind of integrate an old computer into your environment

01:18:52   for whatever reason you need to be running it,

01:18:55   but you kind of save a whole bunch of possible butt pains

01:19:00   by not dealing with virtualization or emulation

01:19:03   or anything like that.

01:19:04   So you're kind of trading some butt pain

01:19:05   for different butt pain.

01:19:07   - Well, I mean, it's not like a classic Mac OS.

01:19:09   It's like anything that can run Mac OS X has USB, right?

01:19:12   And so thumb drives, that'll like,

01:19:14   an HFS+ thumb drive will work in,

01:19:18   and even when you run Mac OS X,

01:19:19   it'll also run in any modern Mac.

01:19:21   So it's way better than classic where you're like,

01:19:23   what the hell is this Apple Talk thing

01:19:24   and how do I deal with that?

01:19:26   Or like you have to install an extension to get TCP/IP

01:19:28   and you gotta figure out how to connect to the internet.

01:19:30   - Yeah, or you have to figure out

01:19:31   like floppy disk formats somehow, good luck.

01:19:34   - Yeah, get a USB floppy drive,

01:19:36   plug it into your Mac, see how that works.

01:19:39   - Oh, yay yay.

01:19:40   All right, Rankari Anand writes,

01:19:43   I was looking at the current set of EVs

01:19:46   and they all seem very unappealing

01:19:48   for one reason or another.

01:19:49   So I decided to put together a list of my requirements.

01:19:52   I will read these.

01:19:53   This is a lot.

01:19:55   And I don't think you should be surprised

01:19:58   that you can't find anything that fits all of these.

01:19:59   But anyway, the requirements are as follows.

01:20:01   No full glass roof, a sunroof that can open,

01:20:04   physical button HVAC controls while you're out.

01:20:06   At this point, you might as well give up.

01:20:09   Physical buttons for, or lever for the gear selector

01:20:12   and no motorized controls for the gear selector.

01:20:15   I'm not sure what that means, but I'll go with it.

01:20:17   Physical button seat adjustment controls,

01:20:19   radar adaptive cruise control, carplay,

01:20:22   preferably have a speedometer in front of the driver,

01:20:24   not in a center screen.

01:20:26   And the center screen must not be safety critical.

01:20:28   In other words, the car should be fully operational

01:20:30   even if the center screen dies.

01:20:32   How is this the future?

01:20:34   How is this a future that we have built ourselves?

01:20:36   - I mean, first of all, this all sounds very reasonable

01:20:38   in theory, but second of all,

01:20:41   even if you just say not even just EVs,

01:20:44   what new cars satisfy this?

01:20:46   Not that many of them, I don't think.

01:20:48   - Yeah, yeah.

01:20:49   I mean, the new Golf R, for example,

01:20:51   which I know is, I believe,

01:20:53   no, it's the manual transmission that's dying.

01:20:54   But anyways, the new Golf R doesn't meet all of these,

01:20:56   if I'm not mistaken.

01:20:58   - It's tough to find a car that would meet all these,

01:21:01   you know, even not an EV, but especially an EV.

01:21:03   The reason I put this in here is because,

01:21:05   we'll get to, his final question is,

01:21:07   what requirements do you have for your next cars?

01:21:09   You can have a list like this,

01:21:10   but you've kind of got to sort it by priority

01:21:13   and decide where you're going to accept,

01:21:15   because you're never gonna get all of them.

01:21:16   Like I think, I'm pretty sure there are,

01:21:18   if there's any car that satisfies all of these,

01:21:20   you don't want it.

01:21:21   It's probably not a good car.

01:21:23   It's probably a car that you,

01:21:23   because you didn't list things like,

01:21:25   how many people fit in it?

01:21:27   - Yeah.

01:21:28   - I feel like that is a bigger requirement.

01:21:29   Do you need to fit six people, or do you need two?

01:21:32   They're, like, if you say, okay, we got a car that fits--

01:21:34   - Do you need a lot of space for luggage?

01:21:36   - Yeah, we got a car that fits this,

01:21:37   but it has a driver's seat, a passenger's seat,

01:21:39   and no back seat of any kind.

01:21:41   Does that work for you?

01:21:42   Like, no, I've got five people in my family, right?

01:21:44   That should probably be a higher priority

01:21:46   than no full glass roof, I'm just saying.

01:21:48   So you've got to prioritize,

01:21:49   but the reason I think this is a fascinating question,

01:21:52   there was a story we had that's probably buried

01:21:54   in the show notes, maybe it'll come up again at some point,

01:21:56   about how customer satisfaction with their new cars

01:22:01   has been declining, mostly blaming infotainment.

01:22:05   And we've talked about this in the past,

01:22:07   how everyone who's making an electric vehicle

01:22:10   feels the need to do stupid things

01:22:13   that are appealing in the showroom,

01:22:16   but that people hate once they get the car home.

01:22:18   And I was hoping that would be like something

01:22:22   that would only happen in the beginning of the age of EVs.

01:22:25   Like we've talked about how and why

01:22:27   it was probably a good idea for Tesla

01:22:28   to do these things in the beginning,

01:22:30   because you want the car to seem cool and futury,

01:22:32   but we're well past that now.

01:22:34   EVs are not entirely mainstream,

01:22:38   but the only thing keeping them out of the mainstream

01:22:40   is their price, right?

01:22:42   They're not exotic and weird, I see EVs all the time,

01:22:46   most of them are the ones I see are not Teslas.

01:22:48   So there's no reason that every single company

01:22:52   that makes an EV needs to do this, but they do do it.

01:22:54   And I think the reason they do it is like,

01:22:55   well, EVs aren't new, but this is our first EV.

01:22:58   It's like, I don't care if it's your first EV.

01:23:00   EVs have been out for what, a decade or what?

01:23:02   Like they're very common now.

01:23:04   I know you're super proud of your first EV,

01:23:07   but think twice before you, for example,

01:23:10   decide to make the door handles crappy.

01:23:12   Every single EV company is doing that.

01:23:15   We've got an EV, the door handles better be annoying

01:23:18   and harder to use and break more often.

01:23:21   Why?

01:23:22   Because EV, and if you say anything about aerodynamics,

01:23:25   I will hit you with my little cartoon hammer and say, no,

01:23:28   no, that's not why you're doing this.

01:23:29   Admit it, you can make flush door handles

01:23:33   that are not stupid, but they don't,

01:23:36   they make them all stupid.

01:23:37   It's like, it's okay for Tesla to do that.

01:23:39   Only Tesla, Tesla's the only company

01:23:41   that gets a buy to do that because they were first

01:23:44   and they had to be cool in computer, and that's their brand.

01:23:47   That shouldn't be your brand, Volkswagen.

01:23:49   Just make door handles that work.

01:23:51   People just want to pull the handle and open the door

01:23:53   and they want it to happen every time

01:23:55   and it would be nice if it still worked

01:23:56   when it was like an ice storm or something.

01:23:58   Stop making them electronic, stop making them stupid.

01:24:01   Same thing goes for everything else inside the car

01:24:03   with the HVAC controls.

01:24:05   Oh, you want to address your side view mirrors?

01:24:06   Have fun navigating the touchscreen.

01:24:08   No, stop it.

01:24:09   Removing stalks from the steering wheel, stop all of that.

01:24:12   But people who are making EVs are doing this.

01:24:16   And it's kind of like the Apple Silicon things,

01:24:18   like how many years does it take from conception

01:24:20   to the shipping of things like seven years or whatever.

01:24:23   The cars that we're seeing now,

01:24:24   what I hope is that every one of these car companies

01:24:26   has learned A, no more piano black plastic,

01:24:29   and B, stop putting everything on screens.

01:24:32   But the problem is there's a countervailing force here

01:24:34   because the countervailing force is part of the reason

01:24:35   that Tesla continues to do this.

01:24:37   It's cheaper to put them on the screens.

01:24:38   And so despite how much people hate them,

01:24:41   it's basically like, look, if we all do this,

01:24:44   if we all make our cars worse, what are they gonna do?

01:24:47   They're not gonna go to a competitor.

01:24:48   So let's all just do it.

01:24:49   Let's all reap the savings.

01:24:50   Let's just have one screen and no buttons.

01:24:53   And it sucks for everybody.

01:24:54   But if all cars are like this, we'll be fine.

01:24:56   It's not that all cars are like this, but EVs, among EVs,

01:24:59   there is a lot of sameness.

01:25:01   Outside of EVs, there are still a few companies

01:25:04   that now are bragging in their press things,

01:25:07   saying, if you'll notice,

01:25:09   we have physical controls for HVAC, right?

01:25:12   And that's a selling point to them.

01:25:14   They're using it as a selling point.

01:25:15   Can you imagine in our childhood of saying,

01:25:18   so you're telling me you have buttons

01:25:19   to change the fan speed, that's great.

01:25:21   That's, is that a bullet point in your brochure?

01:25:23   'Cause every car has that.

01:25:24   It's like, well, in the dark future,

01:25:27   not every car will have that

01:25:28   and we'll make it use a touchscreen.

01:25:30   And the other thing I'll throw in under the bus

01:25:33   is because like, and Mercedes is doing stuff

01:25:35   like the thing we coined about before.

01:25:37   Oh, don't worry, we don't have touch controls.

01:25:39   That would be, that's not good.

01:25:41   We need physical feedback.

01:25:42   So what we have instead is like on the steering wheel,

01:25:44   instead of having touch controls,

01:25:46   because you'll swipe those accidentally

01:25:47   and you'll activate stuff.

01:25:48   No, our things, our buttons,

01:25:50   you press them and they physically move in.

01:25:51   It's not even haptic.

01:25:52   They physically move in and out.

01:25:54   But what they do is they make a giant piano black plastic

01:25:57   panel with six glyphs on it for six different functions.

01:26:01   And when you press any one of those buttons,

01:26:04   the entire panel moves in with a creak,

01:26:07   and a plastic creak and some tilt,

01:26:09   and the entire panel moves out.

01:26:11   Rather than making six individual buttons,

01:26:12   it's essentially one big button with capacitive sensors

01:26:16   to know where on the big giant button your finger was

01:26:18   when you pressed it.

01:26:19   And they think this is better than making six buttons.

01:26:22   - Glen River did that on my Defender.

01:26:23   (laughing)

01:26:25   It's not better.

01:26:26   - Everyone is doing it because it's cheaper

01:26:28   to make one giant button with capacitive controls

01:26:30   than to make six individual buttons and it is so, so bad.

01:26:33   So we all just have to hang in there and yell and scream

01:26:37   as much about this as possible and try to find

01:26:40   the one car company that like pick one of these things

01:26:43   that's the most important to you.

01:26:44   Like my thing is like I don't think I can buy a car

01:26:47   with stupid door handles and I think physical HVAC.

01:26:50   Those would maybe be my top two priorities.

01:26:52   But you can only do what you can do.

01:26:54   In the end, there's no car that has those two things

01:26:56   that I just have to buy what I have to buy.

01:26:57   But we just have to make it through this terrible phase

01:27:00   and come out the other side.

01:27:01   Or we just need some brave car company to say no.

01:27:04   We're gonna design their interior of our cars to be useful

01:27:08   and not to be inexpensive and look, let's see,

01:27:12   in the showroom, but we were in a dark, dark period

01:27:14   for cars and I thought we'd be out of it by now.

01:27:16   I thought this is gonna happen.

01:27:18   The first few generations of EVs are gonna be like this.

01:27:20   People are gonna snap out of it.

01:27:21   They're not snapping out of it.

01:27:22   Or if they have, we haven't seen the fruits

01:27:23   of that labor yet.

01:27:24   They're getting worse.

01:27:25   Brand new cars like Volvo's new line of cars.

01:27:28   Here's our new EVs.

01:27:29   We made EVs before.

01:27:30   Like we have Polestar and everything.

01:27:31   We're experienced.

01:27:32   We've done this before.

01:27:33   This isn't even our first radio.

01:27:34   Our new EV, no rear windscreen.

01:27:37   Like no rear window at all.

01:27:40   We'll just put a camera there.

01:27:41   No, Volvo, stop.

01:27:42   What are you doing?

01:27:44   Maybe that's the Polestar.

01:27:45   I forget which one it is.

01:27:46   No screen in front of you, just a center screen.

01:27:48   Like the Model 3, it's like, have we learned nothing?

01:27:50   Where are you going?

01:27:51   What, like, it's so terrible.

01:27:53   So I feel for this person.

01:27:55   I understand the frustration,

01:27:57   but the pickings out there are so slim

01:28:00   and there are so many bad ideas

01:28:02   and I would have more confidence they would go away

01:28:03   if they weren't all less expensive.

01:28:06   That's the reality.

01:28:07   Less expensive in your $80,000 car.

01:28:09   We gotta save the five cents.

01:28:11   We can't have six individual buttons on your steering wheel.

01:28:14   - I think that's one of the most profound

01:28:17   and impactful changes that technology has seen

01:28:21   in my lifetime.

01:28:22   It used to be, not that long ago,

01:28:25   maybe 15 years ago, screens were very expensive,

01:28:29   just in general.

01:28:32   Like any kind of screen technology.

01:28:35   Growing up, screens were very expensive.

01:28:37   That's why you'd have early computers

01:28:40   that plugged into your TV

01:28:41   because most people would have a TV,

01:28:43   but you wouldn't necessarily have the money

01:28:45   to buy a separate computer monitor,

01:28:47   so you'd plug everything into your TV or whatever.

01:28:49   And then later on, cars, for most of cars' existence,

01:28:55   couldn't have bitmap screens.

01:28:57   They had dials and lights and occasionally,

01:29:01   once you got into the '80s and '90s and stuff,

01:29:05   you could have little LCD segment displays and stuff.

01:29:07   - Do you remember the Buick that had a little,

01:29:09   I think it was the Buick that had a CRT in the dashboard?

01:29:10   I think we've talked about it before.

01:29:12   Someone did put a CRT in a car

01:29:13   in case you were wondering if that ever happened.

01:29:15   It was a monochrome CRT, I believe, but it was there.

01:29:17   Terrible, super terrible.

01:29:19   - Yeah, but screens were expensive.

01:29:22   And so there was always so much effort put into

01:29:26   trying to do whatever you could without a screen,

01:29:28   like without having a screen.

01:29:30   Even my first BMW that I got in 2009 or '10

01:29:35   or whatever that was,

01:29:38   the screen that would have given me the navigation system

01:29:40   was like a $5,000 option, so I didn't take it.

01:29:43   So it just had the little LCD segment display on the radio

01:29:47   and that was it.

01:29:49   The reason it didn't have all these features

01:29:51   was because screens were expensive.

01:29:54   And only in the last, again, like 15 years maybe,

01:29:56   that has flipped over so that now screens cost nothing,

01:30:01   relatively speaking.

01:30:03   Screens are so cheap now that yes,

01:30:07   a screen is still more expensive than a button,

01:30:10   but a screen might actually be less expensive

01:30:14   than 25 buttons and all of their associated wiring

01:30:19   and all of their service over the course

01:30:21   of the vehicle's warranty period.

01:30:22   Like if one of those buttons flakes out

01:30:24   and they gotta replace it.

01:30:25   Once you factor in the total cost of having

01:30:29   all these buttons and stocks and everything

01:30:31   that need to be manufactured, assembled, installed,

01:30:36   maintained, wired, tested, all that stuff,

01:30:39   it actually is now cheaper in a lot of cases

01:30:41   to just put everything in software on the touch screen.

01:30:44   And the idea of that, to tell someone 15 years ago

01:30:47   that it's cheaper for cars to have a giant screen,

01:30:52   a giant color high resolution touch screen,

01:30:56   like that's cheaper than having like 15 buttons?

01:30:59   Yes, actually, in some cases when you factor

01:31:03   in certain things, yes, it actually is.

01:31:06   But anyway, going back to the actual question,

01:31:08   I would suggest, despite everything we just said,

01:31:14   you can get used to a lot of things

01:31:16   that you might not think.

01:31:18   So things that are important about a car

01:31:23   are things like can it fit my family?

01:31:26   Can it fit the stuff we have to do?

01:31:27   Can it fit in my garage or whatever?

01:31:29   Like physical, large physical characteristics

01:31:32   of it are important.

01:31:34   Is it physically capable of fitting in my life

01:31:37   and handling the tasks that I want it to handle?

01:31:40   Is it an EV or not?

01:31:43   Is it fuel efficient or not?

01:31:46   The big questions like that, those all matter a lot.

01:31:50   Stuff like whether you have to move your seat

01:31:53   with physical controls or things on a touch screen,

01:31:56   that matters a lot less.

01:31:58   So what I would suggest is shift your priority list.

01:32:02   A lot of these are nice to haves,

01:32:05   but maybe not requirements.

01:32:08   Because what you will find is that if you're willing

01:32:11   to bend on a few of these kind of more superficial

01:32:15   or less important things,

01:32:17   how often do you move your seat?

01:32:20   If you move it every day, well, then how often you move it,

01:32:24   or how you move it matters a lot.

01:32:27   If you are mostly the only driver of your car

01:32:29   and you don't move your seat that often,

01:32:31   it matters a lot less.

01:32:32   - And by the way, with all this technology,

01:32:34   speaking of moving your seats and stuff,

01:32:35   memory seats, the feature has been around

01:32:38   since the late '70s, early '80s.

01:32:40   Still, still car companies are stingy about doing that.

01:32:43   And sometimes when they do it,

01:32:44   they only have two positions,

01:32:45   'cause they can't store the extra three kilobytes

01:32:47   of memory things. (laughing)

01:32:49   It's insane.

01:32:50   And if, you know, you mentioned seat movement,

01:32:53   if you move the seat,

01:32:54   you're probably also moving the mirrors.

01:32:55   If you get one of these EVs,

01:32:57   where to adjust the side view mirrors and the seat,

01:32:59   you have to use the touchscreen,

01:33:01   and it doesn't have seat memory,

01:33:02   or it has enough seat memory for two people, but not three,

01:33:05   and you have three people using the car,

01:33:07   if every time you get in the car,

01:33:08   you are swiping around on a touchscreen

01:33:10   to adjust both your mirrors and the seat,

01:33:13   you are going to be hating life, right?

01:33:15   And so when I say prioritizing features,

01:33:17   figure out, like, if I had to prioritize them,

01:33:21   it would be like, what things do you do most often?

01:33:22   And changing seats, you know, again, like Mark said,

01:33:25   it may be something you never do,

01:33:26   or something you do almost every time you get in the car,

01:33:28   because it's a shared car, for example,

01:33:29   among two or three people.

01:33:31   So think more about turn signals,

01:33:34   and less about the hood release.

01:33:36   - Yeah. - So like--

01:33:38   - Stuff you use a lot.

01:33:39   - Yeah, turn signals, changing gears,

01:33:42   those are things you use a lot.

01:33:44   I would weight them way more heavily, and door handles.

01:33:47   Every time you get in the car, use door handles,

01:33:49   or maybe you don't, maybe you have your phone in your pocket

01:33:52   and the door automatically pops open, but like, you know,

01:33:54   because that's the things you can get used to,

01:33:56   but think about the thing you're gonna be using every time,

01:33:57   because as annoying as it is to use the touchscreen

01:34:01   to open the glove box on a Tesla,

01:34:03   you're gonna open the glove box way less often

01:34:05   than you're going to signal turns,

01:34:06   unless you're a BMW driver.

01:34:07   (laughing)

01:34:08   - Yeah, but also, you know, like,

01:34:09   to play a little bit of devil's advocate here,

01:34:11   like, you know, some of these requirements

01:34:14   are things that you could get used to

01:34:16   if they weren't satisfied, and some of them you can't.

01:34:20   So for instance, if you really want a sunroof

01:34:23   and the car doesn't have a sunroof,

01:34:25   you're never gonna get used to that.

01:34:27   - Yep, can confirm, 'cause that's where I am right now.

01:34:30   - Me too. - Or if you don't want

01:34:31   a sunroof and your head hits the headliner,

01:34:33   it's always gonna hit the headliner.

01:34:34   You're not gonna shrink that fast.

01:34:36   - Yeah, like, if you, you know,

01:34:37   you want radar adaptive cruise control,

01:34:39   and if your car doesn't have that,

01:34:41   you're never gonna get used to it not having it.

01:34:43   Like, you'll just always not have it.

01:34:46   Whereas, like, if you say you want

01:34:48   physical HVAC control buttons,

01:34:50   you could actually get used to the screen just fine.

01:34:52   You know, it wouldn't, it might not be as ideal,

01:34:55   but like, so that's like a little bit

01:34:56   of a squishy requirement.

01:34:57   What I would suggest is, if there's an EV

01:35:00   that you think you want or might like,

01:35:03   but it fails one of those, like, preferential things,

01:35:05   like physical buttons for HVAC controls

01:35:07   or something like that, like,

01:35:08   I would suggest go test drive it,

01:35:10   or even, if you can, rent one for like a few days.

01:35:13   Because a lot of that stuff,

01:35:16   you'd be surprised how quickly you get used to it

01:35:19   and it isn't a big deal.

01:35:20   This is what Tesla people have been

01:35:21   telling everyone else forever.

01:35:23   Just try it, like rent one for a weekend or something.

01:35:26   Like, try it and you'll see a lot of the stuff

01:35:29   you think is a big deal is not a big deal.

01:35:31   Whereas a lot of the stuff that you might not

01:35:33   have thought of might be a bigger deal than you think.

01:35:35   Like, I hate most Tesla door handles.

01:35:38   Like, as John was saying, the door handles

01:35:40   on Teslas are really annoying, all of them.

01:35:42   Every model Tesla has differently annoying door handles.

01:35:46   Even the new Cybertruck, if you haven't talked about it,

01:35:49   and probably won't, they found another way

01:35:50   to have annoying, stupid door handles.

01:35:53   That is, if anything, Tesla's most innovative department

01:35:56   might be the department that makes

01:35:57   annoyingly bad door handles.

01:35:58   - It's really important for the Cybertruck

01:36:00   to be aerodynamic, Marco, you understand.

01:36:02   (laughing)

01:36:03   - Like, they just keep finding new, creative ways

01:36:05   to make bad, annoying door handles.

01:36:08   But anyway, that, like, to me, the door handles

01:36:13   are worse on Teslas than the lack of certain

01:36:17   physical controls, like, 'cause the lack of physical

01:36:19   controls, like, a lot of that you just get used to

01:36:21   within the first day or two of driving the car.

01:36:23   And it just isn't as big of a deal as you think beforehand.

01:36:25   - Uh, yes but no.

01:36:28   So, let's take an example.

01:36:30   Aaron's XC90, that has the HVAC controls

01:36:35   on the center screen.

01:36:37   I am used to it, so you are correct,

01:36:41   but it is objectively crappier not to have physical controls

01:36:46   you know what I mean?

01:36:47   So it's not that you're wrong, 'cause you do get used to it.

01:36:50   But just because you're used to it

01:36:51   doesn't mean it's superior.

01:36:53   Not having a gauge cluster in a Model 3 is crappy.

01:36:57   Like, I'm sorry Tesla people, it's crappy.

01:37:01   It's not an improvement.

01:37:02   Oh, but you can see the two inches above your hood.

01:37:05   I don't care, it's worse.

01:37:07   - You're totally right on that.

01:37:09   - Actually, on that front, a lot of the,

01:37:12   a recent trend of the couple of car makers has been

01:37:14   to still have the instrument cluster in front of you,

01:37:17   but to make it a very slim, low profile ones.

01:37:20   - Yes. - You get the benefit of,

01:37:22   oh, you have better visibility over the hood,

01:37:23   but we've shrunken the thing down.

01:37:25   - Didn't the Prius do that a thousand years ago?

01:37:27   - Oh, the Prius also had the offset one, I believe.

01:37:30   Toyota used to say, "Oh, it's better for your eyes,

01:37:34   "'cause they're focusing farther away."

01:37:35   It's like, yeah, it's six inches farther away.

01:37:36   - Didn't the Civic do one of those too,

01:37:38   like around 2004 or so?

01:37:40   - I don't think so.

01:37:41   Civic has always had an instrument cluster, I believe.

01:37:44   - I can tell you for sure, the Mustang Mach-E does that.

01:37:46   It has a very small display that's your gauge cluster

01:37:50   that has the bare minimum of useful and usable information,

01:37:54   but that's all you really need.

01:37:56   And it's a little slimline display

01:37:57   right where you expect it to be,

01:37:59   and it's, I was gonna say it's perfect,

01:38:01   that may be a bit dramatic, but it's really good.

01:38:04   And then they have the hilariously large center

01:38:07   touchscreen thing where you would expect it to be,

01:38:10   but at least you have some amount of gauges in the center.

01:38:12   Like, I know you can get used to it,

01:38:14   and I heard you say, Marco, that you're on Team Casey

01:38:18   for this gauge cluster thing,

01:38:19   but like, to talk to the Tesla Zealots,

01:38:22   you can get used to the center screen.

01:38:24   I'm not saying you can't get used to it,

01:38:26   but it's objectively worse.

01:38:28   It's just worse.

01:38:30   - The mirror adjustments is another example.

01:38:31   I think of this every time I adjust it,

01:38:33   because we do have shared cars in my family,

01:38:35   every time I adjust the side mirrors, they're powered,

01:38:38   'cause we have the luxury of powered side mirrors,

01:38:40   'cause they used to not be,

01:38:41   you used to have to reach over and do them,

01:38:42   and it was really annoying.

01:38:43   Kids, ask your parents.

01:38:44   But I adjust them without looking anywhere with my eyes,

01:38:49   except for at the mirrors.

01:38:51   You can't do that with a touchscreen.

01:38:52   You have to look at the touchscreen to navigate,

01:38:55   and then maybe if you're lucky,

01:38:57   you have swipe controls in your steering wheel

01:38:58   to do the adjustments once you've navigated it,

01:38:59   but literally, because they're physical controls,

01:39:01   and they're always in the same place,

01:39:02   and I can feel them in the dark,

01:39:03   I don't have to look at them at all,

01:39:05   I can and do routinely adjust the mirrors

01:39:07   without looking anywhere except for at the mirrors.

01:39:10   That is a better experience than using a touchscreen,

01:39:13   and I don't want them to save the $5

01:39:15   that it would take to save on all the wiring or whatever.

01:39:17   I'd rather have those controls there.

01:39:19   So when I saw the latest Volvo coming out

01:39:21   with nothing on the door panel,

01:39:22   including no window up/down switches,

01:39:23   no mirror adjustment switches, like no, no Volvo.

01:39:26   There should be something on that door.

01:39:27   There's a reason people put controls on the door,

01:39:30   because it's a convenient place for your left hand to be

01:39:32   when you're adjusting the mirrors.

01:39:33   And if you're, you know, oh, just, I don't,

01:39:36   I wanna take those people and shake them.

01:39:37   Like, there's no excuse to be doing this for a 2024 model

01:39:40   to have a door card with literally nothing on it

01:39:42   except for an electronic door release to get out.

01:39:45   Bad.

01:39:46   - Yeah, so I think you guys are broadly correct, though,

01:39:51   that you need to have some amount of prioritization here.

01:39:55   And I think that some things will be must haves

01:39:58   and some things are want to haves.

01:39:59   And you know, you're never gonna get used to,

01:40:02   as you had said, Marco, or maybe it was John,

01:40:03   one of you said you're never gonna get used

01:40:05   to not having a sunroof.

01:40:06   I can confirm, 'cause that's where I am.

01:40:08   But you can get used to having on-screen HVAC controls.

01:40:12   They still suck, but you can get used to it.

01:40:15   - They're not that bad. - And eventually,

01:40:16   you just have to, you're gonna have to compromise.

01:40:18   That being said, I haven't driven my parents' Chevy,

01:40:23   what is it, Boltervolt, I always get it wrong, Bolt,

01:40:25   in a couple of months now,

01:40:27   but I think it may actually meet all of these requirements.

01:40:32   Now, the problem, though, is that most people who buy an EV

01:40:35   want to look fancy and cool and hip.

01:40:38   And a Chevy Bolt does not look fancy nor cool nor hip,

01:40:42   but it is a stunningly good EV

01:40:45   given the price that it costs.

01:40:47   Like, I'm grading on a curve here,

01:40:48   I'll be the first to tell you.

01:40:49   But it is stunningly good for what it is,

01:40:52   and I think it might actually meet

01:40:54   all of these requirements.

01:40:57   For me, we haven't bought cars since 2018,

01:41:01   and I have no current plan to replace either of our cars.

01:41:06   But for me, I absolutely will not buy a car without CarPlay,

01:41:11   and basically everything else is malleable.

01:41:14   I vastly prefer cars with a sunroof,

01:41:17   but I bought one without because all told,

01:41:20   it was the best option I had.

01:41:22   Like, I am a devout sunroof person.

01:41:25   As much as John hates sunroofs, or sunroofs, whatever,

01:41:28   I love them.

01:41:30   It kills me that my car does not have a sunroof.

01:41:33   But eventually, you're gonna have to compromise.

01:41:35   That's the way this works.

01:41:37   And so for me, the only thing I can think of

01:41:39   that I literally will not compromise on is CarPlay,

01:41:42   with a close second probably being

01:41:44   I really dislike front-wheel drive a lot.

01:41:47   A lot, a lot.

01:41:47   And so it would take a lot for me

01:41:49   to get into a front-wheel drive car.

01:41:51   I would probably cave on that if I absolutely had to,

01:41:54   but it would take a lot.

01:41:55   If I were to buy a car today,

01:41:58   I would probably buy the Honda,

01:42:00   or no, I'm sorry, the Kia EV6 GT preferably,

01:42:03   which is very odd looking.

01:42:06   I've heard very crummy things about Hyundai and Kia dealers,

01:42:09   so I might hate that car if I were to buy it today,

01:42:12   but that's probably what I would get.

01:42:13   Or they just came out with, what is it, the IONIQ 5?

01:42:16   No, IONIQ 6.

01:42:17   There's a Hyundai version of the Kia EV6.

01:42:20   I forget what it is.

01:42:20   Or maybe there's something that was just announced.

01:42:22   - Is that the one with the square lights everywhere?

01:42:24   It looks like pixels.

01:42:25   - Yes, but there was--

01:42:26   - Honestly, I think those look really cool.

01:42:28   - They just announced a new one

01:42:30   that's like a direct competitor to the EV6.

01:42:32   And for the life of me,

01:42:33   I can't remember what exactly it's called.

01:42:34   But nonetheless, I would probably buy one of those

01:42:37   because it seems to fit all of my preferences.

01:42:42   Note I did not say requirements.

01:42:44   It seems to fit all my preferences the best.

01:42:46   The chat room is saying the IONIQ 6.

01:42:48   That's probably, no, the IONIQ 6 is ugly as sin.

01:42:51   I don't know, it's something else.

01:42:52   They have an N-line, I think they call it,

01:42:55   which is their hot rod version of their,

01:42:57   maybe it is the IONIQ 5.

01:42:59   I don't recall.

01:43:00   It doesn't really matter.

01:43:01   But anyways, I'd buy one of those.

01:43:02   And again, you're just gonna have to compromise.

01:43:05   That's the way this works.

01:43:06   Or in some cases, spend like a quarter billion dollars

01:43:09   on Porsche, Taycan, or whatever.

01:43:12   - That's what I was saying about your seating situations,

01:43:15   'cause maybe the only one that fits your requirements

01:43:17   is $200,000 Porsche.

01:43:19   - I mean, honestly, I'm pretty sure Tif's i3

01:43:21   fits this requirement list perfectly.

01:43:24   - People don't know what their requirements are

01:43:25   until they see the i3 and they say,

01:43:26   "Oh, I didn't have not butt ugly on my list."

01:43:29   - There you go.

01:43:30   No, I mean, but Marco, you make a good point

01:43:32   that if you want an EV that actually works reasonably well

01:43:36   for regular people, you're probably going to wanna look at,

01:43:41   I know BMW and budget probably don't belong

01:43:43   in the same sentence, but you're probably gonna wanna look

01:43:45   at a budget EV like the i3, which was not exactly budget,

01:43:49   but kind of in that spirit, or the Chevy Bolt,

01:43:52   or something along those lines,

01:43:54   because they are not fancy or trendy or hip or cool

01:43:57   or whatever, but they do cross off,

01:44:00   or they do check all the check boxes.

01:44:01   So what's more important to you?

01:44:03   Getting all of these things on your very long list

01:44:06   or looking cool?

01:44:07   And that's for you to decide.

01:44:08   - Well, and not even just necessarily looking cool,

01:44:10   but when you think I wanna buy an EV,

01:44:12   what you typically think of is the big names in EVs.

01:44:16   So you think Tesla, you think the models that you've seen

01:44:21   either where the whole company is only an EV company

01:44:24   like Tesla and Rivian or Lucid or whatever,

01:44:26   or you think of the car models that were launched

01:44:31   as electric models conceptually from the makers,

01:44:34   and all of those are electric.

01:44:35   And when you look at either the all electric

01:44:38   kind of tech forward companies,

01:44:39   or those EV statement models from other companies,

01:44:44   those tend to be the most aggressive

01:44:47   in their efforts to be futuristic,

01:44:50   to get away from a lot of the stuff

01:44:52   that we're saying we actually tend to want.

01:44:54   'Cause a lot of the clean, minimal design

01:44:59   that takes away all the buttons that we like,

01:45:01   a lot of that is an effort to be futuristic

01:45:03   and to be a statement.

01:45:04   What will probably give you better luck

01:45:06   is not only necessarily going with budget models,

01:45:09   but going with models of cars that were not always electric.

01:45:13   So from companies that have made gas cars forever,

01:45:16   get the electric BMW 3 Series or whatever,

01:45:21   like the electric versions of cars

01:45:24   that car makers are now reluctantly making,

01:45:27   being dragged, kicking, screaming into EVs,

01:45:29   those actually will probably give you more of your list

01:45:33   if what you're looking for is basically an old style car,

01:45:35   which is what this basically is.

01:45:37   That will give you more of that

01:45:38   than the cool concept car from the tech company.

01:45:42   - Yeah, Mercedes really screwed that up

01:45:43   by not going to be in your wrap,

01:45:45   but instead deciding to make an entire parallel line of cars

01:45:48   for their EVs.

01:45:49   BMW said, "We're gonna make a 5 Series.

01:45:51   "You can get an electric and not electric."

01:45:53   Mercedes says, "You can get S class."

01:45:56   We have this whole other line over here, the EQ, S.

01:46:00   Not the same car.

01:46:02   You want an E class or do you want an EQ, E?

01:46:07   Not confusing at all. - And let me tell you,

01:46:09   the EQ line, the interior of the cars is way dumber.

01:46:12   Way dumber.

01:46:13   The bad thing about BMW is, yes, it's true

01:46:17   that the interiors will be similar

01:46:18   between the electronic and regular,

01:46:19   but the regular cars have gotten dumber too.

01:46:21   So yeah, it's tough.

01:46:24   At least the door handle should be semi-normal.

01:46:25   And by the way, I was just looking at a picture

01:46:27   of the IONIQ 6, which I do think is the one

01:46:28   you were thinking of, Casey.

01:46:29   Stupid door handles, what a surprise.

01:46:31   - Yes, it does. - No, no,

01:46:32   the IONIQ 6 is ugly as sin, if you ask me.

01:46:34   - It's a sedan, that's what you're talking about,

01:46:35   four-door sedan, right?

01:46:36   - No, it's not, I'm talking about their hatch.

01:46:38   - I know the EV6 is not really a sedan,

01:46:41   it's a short squat crossover with bad headroom.

01:46:44   Great, love it.

01:46:44   - Oh, and the one that I said looks cool is the IONIQ 5.

01:46:47   - Yeah, it's the IONIQ 5N.

01:46:48   - Yeah, the 5N, I guess the one with the fake EV gear shifts.

01:46:52   People are loving that.

01:46:54   They basically make the EV engine go vrrr, vrrr, vrrr, vrrr,

01:46:57   for no friggin' reason.

01:46:59   - So stupid.

01:47:00   - They interrupt power when you do the fake shifts.

01:47:02   This is great, this is a car with, I believe,

01:47:04   one fixed gear ratio, and when you hit the little

01:47:06   flappy paddle, they intentionally interrupt power

01:47:09   to the electric engine to make you feel like you're shifting.

01:47:12   People love it, apparently.

01:47:14   Talk about skeuomorphism.

01:47:15   - I'm guessing that lasts two model years,

01:47:17   and then discontinue it.

01:47:18   - Well, it'll last until everybody who remembers

01:47:20   what that's imitating is dead.

01:47:22   - No, it'll last until everyone tries it and realizes,

01:47:24   "Oh, actually, it's just better to turn this off."

01:47:26   - No, people try it and they love it.

01:47:27   They love it because they're people who know what that is.

01:47:30   Because it doesn't really, you can do a convincing job

01:47:33   of pretending to be an internal combustion engine

01:47:34   when you have all the torque all the time.

01:47:36   You just interrupt it in ways that they make the sounds,

01:47:39   they do all the things, and everybody who tries it,

01:47:41   they're like, "I thought this would be so dumb,

01:47:42   "but I'm having so much fun."

01:47:43   But those people will eventually die,

01:47:44   and then we'll be rid of this.

01:47:45   But unfortunately, we are also those people,

01:47:47   so we'll also be dead.

01:47:48   (laughing)

01:47:49   - I'm not.

01:47:50   - You are, you know what that's imitating.

01:47:52   You know about gear shifts.

01:47:53   - Well, I know what it's imitating,

01:47:54   but I ran away screaming from it

01:47:56   once I found electric vehicles, 'cause they're better.

01:47:58   - Yeah, but if you tried it, you'd be like,

01:47:59   "I admit this is fun."

01:48:00   It's basically a video game, it's a dumb video game.

01:48:03   - I will say one other thing, though,

01:48:04   in the trade-off between old-style controls

01:48:09   in a car that started out as a gas car

01:48:12   and was later made electric,

01:48:14   versus a car that was electric from the start,

01:48:16   or a company that made electric cars from the start,

01:48:19   what you are losing by sticking with

01:48:22   the old classic car model from the old car company,

01:48:26   even after it has become an EV,

01:48:28   you don't usually get some of the really nice,

01:48:31   interesting, techie features of the pure EV companies.

01:48:36   Tesla and Rivian, for all of their shortcomings,

01:48:38   especially in not supporting CarPlay,

01:48:40   but anyway, for all those shortcomings,

01:48:44   one of the, I mentioned a few months back,

01:48:49   I really missed dog mode.

01:48:51   When I had Teslas for a while,

01:48:53   and then I had to get the Land Rover for my sand permit,

01:48:56   and I really missed dog mode,

01:48:59   which is a thing where you could leave your car

01:49:01   and tap two buttons on the screen,

01:49:03   and it keeps the climate control running,

01:49:05   so if you have to leave your dog in the car

01:49:06   and go into a store, your dog doesn't freeze or overheat.

01:49:09   And it shows on the screen, my dog is fine,

01:49:12   here's the temperature, so nobody breaks into your car

01:49:14   to free your dog, either.

01:49:15   This is a feature that I assumed would be on any EV,

01:49:19   and it's just not.

01:49:20   It's on almost none of them.

01:49:22   There's a whole bunch of those features where,

01:49:24   yeah, it seems like kinda goofy stuff

01:49:27   that usually Tesla will be the first ones

01:49:29   to come up with a lot of this stuff,

01:49:30   and it seems goofy, and it seems like,

01:49:32   why would anybody ever use that?

01:49:34   And then you use it, and you're like,

01:49:35   oh, that's actually really nice.

01:49:36   All cars should have this feature. (laughs)

01:49:39   And a lot of the newer companies that are tech-focused

01:49:43   and very EV-native, like mostly Tesla and Rivian,

01:49:48   they tend to have way nicer features like that

01:49:50   and way more of them, and the old car companies

01:49:53   that have more old-style approaches,

01:49:56   less integration, less software control

01:49:58   over their own vehicles,

01:49:58   less ability to run over-the-air updates

01:50:00   because they're tying together a million different things

01:50:02   from a million different providers, stuff like that.

01:50:04   The older companies tend not to have

01:50:08   many of those tech-forward or clever new features.

01:50:11   So it's a trade-off you're making.

01:50:13   If you wanna stick with the old-style controls

01:50:15   and physicality and everything, that's great,

01:50:18   but you will be missing out on a lot of that new,

01:50:21   fun tech stuff that EVs do offer

01:50:23   from the overly minimalist companies.

01:50:27   - All right, moving on.

01:50:28   Josiah Katz writes, "How's Call Sheet going?"

01:50:32   Well, breaking news, as of today,

01:50:33   doing really freaking great because our friends,

01:50:36   well, because our friends at Upgrade, spoiler alert,

01:50:38   have awarded Call Sheet an Upgradey,

01:50:41   which I was very, very excited to hear.

01:50:43   - Oh, congratulations!

01:50:44   - Well, thank you. - Look at that timing.

01:50:45   - Yeah, I know, perfect, right?

01:50:47   I didn't even put this in the show notes.

01:50:49   I think this was John that put the topic in there.

01:50:51   But yeah, Jason had sent me a message saying,

01:50:54   in so many words, "You really need to listen

01:50:56   "to the beginning of Upgrade,"

01:50:58   which I did with the family, actually.

01:50:59   We all listened to it together for the very first time.

01:51:01   And the kids were extremely excited, which was very cool.

01:51:05   So yeah, that was very kind of them.

01:51:06   So check out Upgrade this week.

01:51:08   But no, Call Sheet's doing well.

01:51:10   I'm very honored, I'm genuinely quite honored

01:51:13   to have received an Upgradey.

01:51:15   And as Mike had said on the show,

01:51:18   there were other opportunities where if this was just,

01:51:22   I'm going to give this to my friend,

01:51:23   they could have done this before.

01:51:25   But it seems like I genuinely earned this one,

01:51:27   which I'm quite happy about.

01:51:29   But it's been going well.

01:51:30   Development has slowed a little bit

01:51:33   because life has been getting quite busy,

01:51:35   as it has for basically everyone in this time of year.

01:51:38   But releases are still happening.

01:51:39   In fact, just a couple hours ago,

01:51:41   a release just finished a one-week rollout

01:51:44   earlier this evening.

01:51:46   There's definitely a lot of stuff I want to do,

01:51:49   which is in contrast to most of my other apps

01:51:51   where there were things I wanted to do,

01:51:52   but if I get to it, I get to it.

01:51:54   If I don't, I don't.

01:51:55   I have a laundry list of things that I desire to do

01:51:59   to and for Call Sheet.

01:52:02   My first priority list, as I call it, is only one item.

01:52:07   But let's see, there are 44 other items

01:52:10   that I have noted as things I would like to do.

01:52:13   Now, a lot of these, some of these are small,

01:52:15   some of these are investigations,

01:52:17   but a lot of these are features.

01:52:19   And I feel like for the most part,

01:52:24   I think I've gotten most of the low-hanging fruit.

01:52:27   There's a couple of exceptions there.

01:52:29   But I've gotten most of the low-hanging fruit,

01:52:30   so I'm pretty happy with that.

01:52:32   And I feel like the app is in a pretty good spot.

01:52:35   There's definitely ways I want to enhance and expand,

01:52:38   but it's in a pretty good state.

01:52:40   And with regard to money, it's done pretty well.

01:52:44   It's not, it is not done as,

01:52:48   I tried, I just tried to start seven sentences

01:52:51   all at the same time.

01:52:52   So if you look at how much time it took me

01:52:55   to write Call Sheet, which was around about six months

01:52:58   as a broad estimate, if this was the only income I had,

01:53:03   I don't think I earned six months worth of income from it,

01:53:07   if that makes sense.

01:53:08   Like if I hadn't been doing Call Sheet

01:53:09   and instead was like doing independent consulting

01:53:12   at roughly independent consulting rates,

01:53:15   I would have lost money.

01:53:17   But it's in the ballpark now,

01:53:21   which is really freaking great.

01:53:23   And what's incredibly great is that in theory,

01:53:27   I'll be getting another payment of a lot of this money.

01:53:31   Hopefully a large portion of this money

01:53:33   will come again next year.

01:53:34   And that, that my friends,

01:53:37   is incredibly empowering and incredibly cool.

01:53:39   So my hope is as I continue to add features

01:53:43   and fix bugs and so on and so forth,

01:53:45   hopefully that will encourage people

01:53:47   not to abandon their subscriptions.

01:53:49   It will hopefully encourage people to go ahead

01:53:51   and tell their friends about it.

01:53:53   And hopefully their friends and family and whatnot

01:53:55   will subscribe.

01:53:56   And hopefully over time, this becomes another item

01:54:00   in the financial quiver, if you will.

01:54:03   Which is really important to me

01:54:04   because as much as I am so lucky for what I do

01:54:08   and I'm so lucky that I'm able to put a roof over our heads

01:54:11   and food on the table doing it, it's still scary.

01:54:14   If Marco or John drop dead tomorrow,

01:54:18   God help us and God help me,

01:54:20   that would be a really big financial issue for me.

01:54:22   I mean, leaving aside the fact that I'd be devastated

01:54:24   that one of my dearest friends has had something happen,

01:54:27   it would be a real financial problem.

01:54:28   And so hopefully over time, all three of us,

01:54:31   and I think Marco has done a very good job of this,

01:54:32   but he had a pretty big headstart,

01:54:34   but we all diversify and have other means of income.

01:54:37   And so now this has moved the needle on the family income,

01:54:41   which is exactly what I had hoped

01:54:44   and what I had dreamed would happen.

01:54:47   So yeah, I mean, if there's anything you two wanna ask,

01:54:49   I'm happy to entertain questions.

01:54:51   But in short, it's been going really well

01:54:53   and I'm riding a real big high right now

01:54:55   on account of the upgradey.

01:54:56   So I'm in a good spot.

01:54:58   - Yeah, that's awesome.

01:54:59   First of all, the upgradey is a huge deal.

01:55:01   That is awesome.

01:55:02   I've been around long enough.

01:55:04   I've had enough success in my app career

01:55:07   that I've gotten a decent number of awards

01:55:10   from blogs and podcasts and everything.

01:55:13   It matters every single time.

01:55:15   It never stops feeling cool.

01:55:17   It never stops being a huge honor.

01:55:19   I absolutely love it.

01:55:20   I'm secretly hoping that when I release my big rewrite

01:55:25   for next year sometime,

01:55:28   I'm hoping to get awards for that as well.

01:55:31   That matters a lot and it's always a big deal.

01:55:33   - You're not gonna get an upgradey though.

01:55:35   - Well, I have a lifetime achievement so I can't.

01:55:37   - Lifetime achievement award.

01:55:38   So you are ineligible.

01:55:40   - Yeah, I think I can get a Mac Stories award

01:55:42   for the rewrite, I think.

01:55:43   I don't know.

01:55:44   There's gonna be a lot of competition.

01:55:46   What I would really want is an ADA, but we'll see.

01:55:48   That's-- - Yeah, I hear that.

01:55:51   - That's my white whale.

01:55:52   I want an ADA so badly.

01:55:54   - Yeah, I feel like the idea,

01:55:55   don't you feel like the ADA has been devalued

01:55:57   through no fault of the people who've awarded?

01:55:59   Congratulations to all of them.

01:56:00   But I feel like sometimes, it's kinda like the Oscars.

01:56:03   Sometimes you question the judgment of the academy,

01:56:04   you know what I mean?

01:56:05   - I wouldn't say they've been devalued,

01:56:07   but they have shifted over time with different priorities.

01:56:11   And that's, first of all,

01:56:13   I think that actually gives me a chance.

01:56:14   Because in the original definition of the ADAs,

01:56:16   I stood no chance.

01:56:18   'Cause I'm not that great of a designer.

01:56:19   - Right, right, right.

01:56:20   You just gotta hope you're using whatever API

01:56:21   Apple's promoting that year.

01:56:23   - Yeah, but I think I'm leaning so heavily

01:56:27   into Apple's new stuff, like with SF Symbols and SwiftUI.

01:56:31   I think I have a better chance than ever.

01:56:34   That might not be enough of a chance,

01:56:36   but it's certainly a better chance than ever, so we'll see.

01:56:38   - It's an honor just to be nominated.

01:56:40   - It actually, it genuinely is.

01:56:41   It really, honestly is. - Yeah, it is.

01:56:43   If you think, especially on iOS,

01:56:45   how many iOS apps are released every year?

01:56:47   It's worse than the Oscars.

01:56:49   It's just like you get a one in two million chance.

01:56:53   - But also, the kind of app that used to win ADAs

01:56:58   doesn't really exist anymore.

01:56:59   Nobody makes that kind of app anymore.

01:57:01   So if they were trying to give out ADAs

01:57:03   for just that style of app,

01:57:05   they wouldn't have enough candidates every year.

01:57:07   So at least enough good ones.

01:57:10   So it had to shift over time,

01:57:13   and the app market is constantly shifting.

01:57:14   But yeah, honestly, that is my white whale.

01:57:16   I am going to keep trying until I win one.

01:57:19   And it might never happen, but that, if I ever do,

01:57:23   just know that will mean a tremendous amount to me.

01:57:27   That will be like, that will make my year,

01:57:30   that will make my decade.

01:57:31   I want one so badly, but we'll see.

01:57:33   Again, I never think I have that great a chance.

01:57:37   - You can just probably buy an old one on eBay.

01:57:39   - It's not the, I could totally,

01:57:41   but it's not the same, you know.

01:57:43   - We were just talking about people

01:57:44   who were selling Eddie Awards.

01:57:45   You guys don't remember this, but back in the day when,

01:57:49   was it Mac User, yeah?

01:57:50   The magazine would sell the little,

01:57:52   or maybe it's Mac Word. - No, it's Mac Word.

01:57:53   I have one. - Yeah.

01:57:55   The big statues with the person holding up

01:57:57   the Mac SE over their head.

01:57:58   - Which, by the way, that is the coolest award

01:58:00   I've gotten, I think.

01:58:01   I got one for Instapaper.

01:58:03   - But anyway, those are available on eBay now

01:58:05   for going for a lot of money, apparently.

01:58:07   So you may be able to get an ADA cube eventually

01:58:10   when someone dies and their estate puts it up on eBay.

01:58:12   - Yeah, but I don't want someone else's ADA cube on my desk.

01:58:15   I want one that I was issued, that I--

01:58:18   - Well, you take what you can get.

01:58:19   (laughing)

01:58:20   - We'll see.

01:58:21   If I get desperate enough, maybe, but no.

01:58:23   - The old ones had batteries in them, right,

01:58:24   to light up or whatever, so I wonder if that battery

01:58:26   will still be good in 20 years.

01:58:28   - I think that was actually user-replaceable,

01:58:30   and now we've come full circle, baby.

01:58:32   - Yeah, wasn't there an iFixit tear,

01:58:34   somebody actually did a battery replacement guide on those.

01:58:38   I think half as a joke, but it was actually real.

01:58:41   - Yeah.

01:58:42   - Anyway, so all this is to say, Casey,

01:58:44   winning an upgrade is a huge deal, and that's awesome.

01:58:47   - No, it really is.

01:58:48   You know, for me, I don't know if you and I

01:58:51   have ever met, Marco, but I have a wee bout

01:58:54   of imposter syndrome, and so--

01:58:57   - You?

01:58:58   - Yeah, I know, right?

01:58:59   And so, for me, all kidding aside,

01:59:02   for me to have won an award for my work,

01:59:05   and I absolutely had help on the app,

01:59:09   but it's still my work, and that is a tremendous compliment,

01:59:14   it's a tremendous honor, and it's a little bit of,

01:59:19   it's a way for me to convince the nastier subconscious,

01:59:24   or the nastier subconscious part of my brain,

01:59:27   that no, when you really do try hard,

01:59:30   you actually can make this work, you know?

01:59:32   And even though I do believe that for the most part,

01:59:35   as with everyone, but especially with me,

01:59:39   a lot of times I feel like I'm faking it,

01:59:41   and I'm gonna be found out tomorrow

01:59:43   that I'm a big dummy, and so on and so forth,

01:59:44   and I mean, hell, listen to the first two years

01:59:46   of this program, and I think my confidence

01:59:49   for, to the degree that it existed at all,

01:59:52   was not what it is now, and so,

01:59:55   for me to have this tangible, to a degree,

01:59:59   evidence that when I try hard,

02:00:01   and I do something difficult, I can succeed.

02:00:05   Like, that's a really incredible compliment,

02:00:07   and a really incredible feeling,

02:00:08   and it really helps me feel better about doing the thing,

02:00:11   you know, the job that I do,

02:00:13   and so I'm extremely thankful for it,

02:00:15   and yeah, I didn't put this topic in the show notes,

02:00:18   but it was extremely fortuitous timing,

02:00:19   so thank you, Jon.

02:00:21   - Yeah, I'm not out here doing it for the awards,

02:00:24   I do it for the money, and I get neither.

02:00:25   (laughing)

02:00:28   I'm sorry, wah-wah.

02:00:29   - Thank you so much to our members

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02:01:41   - What was your Eddie award for?

02:01:44   Was it overcast?

02:01:44   - Instapaper.

02:01:46   - Instapaper, yeah.

02:01:47   - Yeah, Instapaper was early enough in the App Store

02:01:51   that I got a whole bunch of awards

02:01:53   for things that don't exist anymore.

02:01:54   (laughing)

02:01:55   - Yeah, they're different categories.

02:01:56   The other thing, unlike the Oscars, the Eddie,

02:01:58   the Eddie award, the ADA categories have really changed

02:02:03   from year to year, just depending on whatever Apple

02:02:05   feels like doing.

02:02:07   - Of course, yeah, 'cause again,

02:02:08   the app market is so different.

02:02:10   Right now, how many indie developers are there

02:02:15   that are crafting pixel perfect UI today?

02:02:18   There's not that many left.

02:02:19   - I mean, there are still ones out there.

02:02:21   That's why it's so kind of fun when somebody wins

02:02:23   and you're like, not only does that app show off the API,

02:02:26   Apple wants you to use and does all the things right,

02:02:28   but it also is pixel perfect and beautiful.

02:02:30   They do exist, they're just more rare than they used to be.

02:02:32   - Yeah, exactly, but the thing is,

02:02:34   there are so few of them left that Apple probably

02:02:39   doesn't have a lot to choose from for the ADAs each year

02:02:42   for that kind of thing.

02:02:44   - That's why, how many years went by with this?

02:02:45   I think they did like no Mac apps got ADAs

02:02:48   for a bunch of years.

02:02:49   - Yeah, exactly, 'cause like how many awesome new Mac apps

02:02:52   are being released every year?

02:02:53   - That aren't web views.

02:02:54   - Yeah, it's not a huge number, unfortunately.

02:02:57   And so, I wonder too, it's always a question of

02:03:02   what they're gonna try to promote with the ADAs.

02:03:04   So this year, I'm sure anything good on VisionOS

02:03:06   is gonna be substantially looked at.

02:03:10   But it's always, they talk about other stuff,

02:03:15   there's always diversity and inclusion metrics,

02:03:17   there's fun metrics, there's games.

02:03:20   - All the game categories they have,

02:03:21   do you see all the game categories this past year

02:03:24   or whatever, no, that was like the App Store.

02:03:26   - That was the best of the App Store, right?

02:03:27   Which is different.

02:03:28   - But even though it's, I look at those awards

02:03:31   and I can't figure out how they pick,

02:03:33   how Apple picks game of the year,

02:03:36   because it's not the same way that, for example,

02:03:38   a gaming website would pick its game of the year.

02:03:40   I feel like gaming websites are picking it like,

02:03:43   which they think is the best game

02:03:44   and Apple is using something else.

02:03:47   Not that the games that win aren't good games,

02:03:49   they're all good games, right?

02:03:50   There's a lot of good games out there,

02:03:51   but like, why this game?

02:03:54   I think it's like, I think Apple will pick,

02:03:57   for example, I think one of the games,

02:03:58   they'll pick like a game that is only made for iOS

02:04:01   and is a good game over a game that is better,

02:04:04   but it's not a great port for iOS, you know what I mean?

02:04:06   - Well, of course, 'cause that's what they're picking.

02:04:08   They're not picking the best game

02:04:09   in the entire games industry,

02:04:10   they're picking the best game on their platforms.

02:04:11   - Oh, I know, but they'll have a game on their platform

02:04:13   that's a better game and it was ported to iOS,

02:04:16   but the port is only okay.

02:04:18   But in the end, once you're into the game

02:04:20   and playing the game, the game is better,

02:04:22   but this game was made exclusively for iOS

02:04:24   and uses all of Apple's APIs

02:04:26   and isn't available on other platforms,

02:04:27   then it gets the award.

02:04:28   It's the platform tax and their awards.

02:04:30   It's kind of hard to take them seriously

02:04:31   when it comes to games.

02:04:33   - Well, but again, I think they're looking

02:04:35   for different things too.

02:04:36   Like what you look for in a game for,

02:04:40   if you're like a gaming website

02:04:43   that covers the major AAA games of the world,

02:04:46   that's a very different audience

02:04:47   with very different priorities

02:04:48   and very different games

02:04:50   than what succeeds on iPhones for people.

02:04:54   It's so different, it's a radically different market.

02:04:58   And Apple has different incentives, of course, as well,

02:05:00   'cause they are, you don't usually get a whole bunch

02:05:03   of Game of the Year awards from Nintendo or from Sony.

02:05:08   In this case, Apple is the platform,

02:05:10   so of course they're gonna have

02:05:11   not only different priorities, but different incentives.

02:05:14   So yeah, of course they're gonna prefer games

02:05:16   that are exclusive to them

02:05:19   and show off their stuff really well

02:05:21   and take advantage of any initiative they wanna push.

02:05:23   Games that are in Apple Arcade

02:05:24   or games that are cross-platform

02:05:26   that work on your Apple TV also or whatever,

02:05:29   of course they're gonna push that stuff harder.

02:05:30   That's the nature of them being the platform owner

02:05:33   and also issuing awards.

02:05:34   [beeping]

02:05:36   (static buzzing)