565: Trickle-Up Concern


00:00:00   We've entered lined pants season.

00:00:04   - Quarter eyes, you mean?

00:00:05   - No, what?

00:00:06   No.

00:00:07   - Pants have lines on them, they're quarter eyes, right?

00:00:09   - Oh yeah, that's pretty good, no.

00:00:12   - Oh, you mean line, like as in they have linings, yeah okay.

00:00:14   - Yes.

00:00:15   - Lined pants, it's called thermal underwear, Marco,

00:00:18   look into it.

00:00:18   Every pant can be a lined pant.

00:00:20   If you wear a thermal underwear under it,

00:00:21   I'm wearing thermal underwear under my pants right now.

00:00:23   - See the problem with, okay, that is a solution.

00:00:27   - It's modular.

00:00:28   - You gotta do what you gotta do, right?

00:00:29   That is a solution.

00:00:31   It's not my favorite solution because then you add

00:00:34   a bunchable layer gap, you know,

00:00:37   with properly lined jeans.

00:00:39   Like when you have, so I'm talking about like the jeans

00:00:41   that have like the flannel lining in them.

00:00:42   - Yeah, but they're floating away from your legs

00:00:44   and puffing out all your nice manufactured warm air

00:00:46   every time you take a step.

00:00:48   - Yeah, maybe, but see the problem with, you know,

00:00:51   the separate underwear layer is that then they can move

00:00:55   independently from the pant leg which causes bunching.

00:00:58   - You just gotta get good ones that stay in place.

00:01:00   They're not moving around.

00:01:01   You gotta get good, nice, high quality thermal underwear

00:01:03   that does not move around or bunch up or like,

00:01:07   you're not getting good ones that are not fitting you right

00:01:08   if that's happening.

00:01:09   They're like tights, they're like leggings.

00:01:10   They shouldn't go anywhere.

00:01:12   - Also, I must admit, I do not like the process

00:01:14   of putting them on.

00:01:15   - You mean sliding them over the ends of your legs?

00:01:19   - They're too tight.

00:01:20   - Are you putting them over your head?

00:01:21   Is that what you're doing?

00:01:22   - No, they're too tight.

00:01:24   You gotta like, you know, even them out,

00:01:26   like make sure they're on.

00:01:27   Like, I'm just, I'm not a fan.

00:01:29   - You would not survive as a woman.

00:01:31   - Right, I was about to say, like, this is considered

00:01:34   the comfortable clothes for most women I know.

00:01:36   And here we are as men complaining and moaning about it,

00:01:39   which I'm not saying you're wrong, Marco,

00:01:41   but this is like--

00:01:42   - I'm saying you're wrong.

00:01:43   I don't think putting them on thermal underwear

00:01:44   is onerous at all.

00:01:46   It's just like a really big sock with no ends on it.

00:01:48   - On a wildly unrelated note, I am drunk with power right now

00:01:55   because I had an epiphany a day or two back.

00:01:59   And you two already know what I'm talking about,

00:02:01   but a day or two back, I had an epiphany.

00:02:03   And it occurred to me my,

00:02:05   and I can't believe I'm saying this, but you know,

00:02:07   here we are, my bespoke ultrafine 5K porch monitor,

00:02:10   because although we do have seasons

00:02:12   and we do have something that vaguely resembles winter,

00:02:14   and so because of that, it is cold outside,

00:02:17   by my definition.

00:02:18   I'm sure you two would laugh at it, but for me, it's cold.

00:02:20   And so it occurred to me this bespoke ultrafine 5K

00:02:25   that I would typically use on the porch

00:02:26   during the nice weather is just gonna be sitting

00:02:28   for the next several months.

00:02:30   What if I added it to my existing array of 5Ks?

00:02:34   - I don't understand how you got the starting point,

00:02:37   that it's just gonna be sitting.

00:02:38   Why would you think it would be sitting?

00:02:40   - Well, wait, am I gonna, I'm not gonna use it.

00:02:42   I mean, that's--

00:02:43   - How would you leave it on the porch?

00:02:44   It seems like the default would be

00:02:46   everything's coming in off the porch

00:02:48   and my monitor is going onto my computer desk

00:02:49   'cause where else would it go?

00:02:51   - It was sitting on the floor of my office

00:02:52   'cause I didn't know what else to do with it.

00:02:53   And then it occurred to me, wait a second.

00:02:56   - What do you do with this rectangle that lights up?

00:02:58   I have no idea.

00:02:59   There's a computer over here

00:03:00   and there's a light up rectangle over there.

00:03:02   Are they related in some way?

00:03:04   We'll never know.

00:03:05   - When you already have 10Ks of resolution,

00:03:08   do you really need 15?

00:03:09   Well, damn it, yes I do.

00:03:10   So now I have 15Ks of resolution

00:03:13   and I am very excited about it.

00:03:15   You two with your measly 6K a piece,

00:03:18   I have more than the two of you combined

00:03:20   and I think we're still talking about monitors.

00:03:21   So here we are.

00:03:22   - It's our contiguous space, it's all broken up.

00:03:25   - That's true.

00:03:26   I look full on grandma's boy right now, it's ridiculous.

00:03:29   And I'm loving every second of it.

00:03:30   And this is gonna be great.

00:03:31   And I told myself I wouldn't incept Marco, but here we go.

00:03:34   This is gonna be great until Marco listens

00:03:36   to this recording of my track and says to me,

00:03:38   oh my God, you've created an echo chamber, never again.

00:03:41   - We'll hear all the fans on those two LGs going.

00:03:43   - Yeah, exactly.

00:03:44   (laughing)

00:03:45   Oh my God.

00:03:46   - So yeah, so we'll see what happens.

00:03:48   But right now I am mad and drunk with power

00:03:50   and nobody can stop me.

00:03:52   - You can have three windows open now, Casey.

00:03:54   - Three entire windows.

00:03:57   Imagine that.

00:03:58   Yeah, yeah, all right.

00:03:59   So we have a bunch of happy administrative

00:04:01   to take care of.

00:04:02   First and foremost, there is a new,

00:04:05   hot off the presses member special

00:04:08   that we released earlier today.

00:04:09   If you are not a member, you can go to ATP.fm/join.

00:04:13   You can join and become a member.

00:04:16   You can do that and you can get all of the member specials

00:04:19   we have ever recorded, not just the ones

00:04:21   that are forthcoming.

00:04:22   And you can get the bootleg, which is the,

00:04:24   immediately after we finish recording,

00:04:26   it's the version of the show that has all our mistakes

00:04:30   and all of me swearing and everything.

00:04:32   And you can also get an ad-free version of the show,

00:04:34   which is pretty great.

00:04:35   But in this particular instance,

00:04:37   what we're talking about is the ATP holiday special.

00:04:39   Marco, would you like to tell me

00:04:40   about what the holiday special is, please?

00:04:42   - Yes, so it turns out we tried to talk about

00:04:46   holiday traditions or things we're looking forward

00:04:49   to or our favorite things to do

00:04:50   or our least favorite things to do.

00:04:52   And Casey wanted this episode to be 30 minutes long.

00:04:56   - I was just trying to say that it didn't need

00:04:59   to be more than 30 minutes.

00:05:01   - You needed to go to bed, you was sweeping.

00:05:03   - I mean, that's every day.

00:05:05   That's every day when we start the show.

00:05:06   - Well, let's just say it lasted longer than 30 minutes

00:05:11   because it's us, of course.

00:05:13   And I thought it was pretty fun.

00:05:15   And so we had a fun holiday episode.

00:05:18   It is a light, fluffy, and fun thing that we made

00:05:21   and you can enjoy it.

00:05:22   - Yeah, that is available.

00:05:23   Please go ahead and join at ATP.fm/join

00:05:26   if you haven't already and have a listen.

00:05:28   It really was a lot of fun.

00:05:29   A lot of nostalgia, especially if you happen to be

00:05:31   an old dude or like listening to old dudes talk about toys

00:05:34   from 30 years ago, you're really gonna like it.

00:05:35   But there's more than just that.

00:05:37   Now, what if, Jon, imagine a scenario where,

00:05:41   because of whatever your life situation is,

00:05:43   you don't really have the spare cash to send our way,

00:05:46   which we get, that's totally fine.

00:05:48   No offense taken.

00:05:49   But you really wanted to listen to these holiday specials.

00:05:51   You shouldn't steal them.

00:05:54   But is there any other thing that you could do instead?

00:05:57   - This is the season of giving.

00:05:59   And in that spirit, we have done what programmers always do

00:06:03   at the end of the year, which is rush like mad

00:06:05   to get a feature out the door

00:06:07   before the holiday season is done.

00:06:10   People have asked for it and we have hastily implemented it.

00:06:14   - Jon has hastily implemented it.

00:06:16   - I gotta stop you there.

00:06:17   - We did not hastily implement anything.

00:06:18   - I didn't do anything for this.

00:06:20   (laughing)

00:06:22   - I lightly participated and Marco sat on the sidelines

00:06:24   and said, "Good work, fellas."

00:06:26   - I'm including you all in case it doesn't work.

00:06:29   - Fair enough, okay, I'll allow it.

00:06:30   - We have added gift memberships.

00:06:32   Go to ATP.fm/gift.

00:06:34   Many people have asked for this.

00:06:36   It is exactly what, it sounds like someone else

00:06:40   can buy you an ATP membership

00:06:42   rather than you buying it yourself,

00:06:43   or you can buy someone else a membership

00:06:45   so that they become a member.

00:06:47   Here is the, the timing of this obviously

00:06:51   is meant to get it out the door

00:06:53   before the holiday season is over.

00:06:55   That's why we're in such a big hurry.

00:06:56   If there's some feature that's missing from gift membership,

00:06:59   you can email us and we'll implement it,

00:07:01   but we thought it was really important

00:07:02   to get this out the door

00:07:03   before the holiday season is over.

00:07:05   And in particular, all the people who signed up

00:07:09   for membership to get the discount in the ATP store,

00:07:12   the ATP holiday store that came and went a while back,

00:07:15   all those people's memberships are now expiring.

00:07:18   'Cause we always say, hey, just sign up for the store,

00:07:19   get the discount, buy your stuff, it's worth it,

00:07:21   and you can cancel, you know, it's really easy to do, right?

00:07:24   That's happening right now.

00:07:25   We are seeing people's memberships slowly disappear

00:07:27   because they're like, yeah,

00:07:28   I just became a member of the store,

00:07:29   I got my stuff and now it's over.

00:07:31   Here's what those people can do.

00:07:32   Ask somebody to buy you a membership

00:07:36   as a gift for the holidays.

00:07:37   Then the next time the store comes up,

00:07:39   you'll already have a membership

00:07:41   because they bought you a gift membership.

00:07:42   So you still don't have to actually

00:07:44   get the membership yourself.

00:07:45   It's a great way to save money.

00:07:46   All you gotta do is give somebody a URL.

00:07:48   They don't, all they need is this URL.

00:07:50   They can just go there and obviously a credit card

00:07:51   or something and buy you a membership.

00:07:53   You need to give them the URL, ATP.fm/gift.

00:07:56   The other thing they need to know is what email address

00:07:59   you signed up for your membership account.

00:08:01   If you haven't signed up for a membership account,

00:08:04   don't worry, they can just use any email address that's you.

00:08:06   If they enter the wrong email address, don't worry,

00:08:07   you can change it later.

00:08:08   But for everything to go seamlessly,

00:08:10   it would be good if they knew what email address

00:08:13   you would like to use at the website.

00:08:15   The final thing I'll add is the way these work,

00:08:18   again, because of time constraints,

00:08:19   is the person who buys the gift membership for you,

00:08:21   after they successfully buy it,

00:08:23   they'll be presented with a screen that says,

00:08:24   here's what the person has to do to redeem their membership.

00:08:26   And there's a code you can enter.

00:08:28   There's also a link that you can go to,

00:08:30   but here's the most important part.

00:08:32   And it's in red, bold, italic text on the page

00:08:35   that they land on after they buy it.

00:08:37   They have to give you that link,

00:08:40   that redemption code, whatever.

00:08:42   It's not gonna get to you any other way.

00:08:44   How can they give it to you?

00:08:45   They could write it down on a piece of paper,

00:08:46   they could print it, they could send it to you in a message,

00:08:48   they can make a nice little card.

00:08:50   But the point is, they have to give you

00:08:52   that redemption code, that link, somehow, some way.

00:08:56   Why don't we make a nice card and email it to you?

00:08:58   Time constraints, we apologize.

00:09:00   But that is the system, somewhat manual,

00:09:02   but I can attest that it actually works.

00:09:05   Someone actually has already purchased and redeemed

00:09:07   a gift membership, so the system works.

00:09:09   Please go to ATP.fm/gift,

00:09:11   or rather, please send that URL to people in your life

00:09:13   who you would like to buy you a gift membership.

00:09:16   And we'll be back here crossing our fingers

00:09:17   and hoping this whole thing works.

00:09:19   - All right, well, a couple of things

00:09:20   I think we need to point out.

00:09:21   First of all, what happens if I am an active

00:09:24   and paid member, but I'd like a little bit

00:09:28   of quote-unquote free membership?

00:09:29   Can I ask for a gift of ATP membership,

00:09:31   even if I'm already a paying member?

00:09:33   - You sure can.

00:09:34   If you get a gift, and by the way,

00:09:36   the gift codes, when you redeem them,

00:09:38   they start immediately.

00:09:39   But if you already have a membership,

00:09:40   all it does is shove your membership down into the future.

00:09:43   So the gift membership begins immediately,

00:09:45   and your remaining membership that you paid for,

00:09:47   that will just resume once the gift membership is done.

00:09:49   And in fact, if you get multiple gift memberships,

00:09:51   so many people wanna get you gift memberships,

00:09:53   you get five of them.

00:09:55   Redeem all five, they'll just stack one after the other.

00:09:57   The first one you redeem will start immediately,

00:09:59   the second one you redeem will just queue it up

00:10:00   right behind it, the third one will be

00:10:01   queued up right behind it.

00:10:03   There's no limit to the amount of gift memberships

00:10:05   people can buy you, and again, as you redeem them,

00:10:08   if you redeem multiple memberships, they will be queued up.

00:10:10   And if you love it so much,

00:10:12   and your gift membership is about to run out,

00:10:14   you can subscribe for real, and your real membership

00:10:16   will start as soon as your last gift membership expires.

00:10:19   So we hope all this works as described,

00:10:22   but the whole point is,

00:10:24   you can give the gift of ATP membership.

00:10:25   You can receive the gift of ATP membership.

00:10:28   'Tis the season.

00:10:29   - Additionally, just another point of order here.

00:10:33   Let's suppose I bought a gift membership for you, John,

00:10:37   but I screwed up your email address,

00:10:39   or you would prefer a different email address.

00:10:40   What can I do about that?

00:10:42   - Yeah, the way the gift memberships work

00:10:43   is on your member page,

00:10:44   either the page for the person who purchased it,

00:10:46   or the page for the person who received it,

00:10:47   you'll see all the gift memberships

00:10:49   that you've dealt with in any way.

00:10:50   So if you were the sender,

00:10:51   you'll see all the ones that you sent,

00:10:53   you'll see redemption instructions underneath there,

00:10:55   and you'll also be able to change the address

00:10:57   that it sent to.

00:10:58   That's another constraint here.

00:11:00   You can only redeem the gift membership

00:11:01   if it was sent to you specifically,

00:11:03   your specific email address.

00:11:05   So if you're like, oh, I don't actually use

00:11:06   that email address at ATP.fm,

00:11:07   I use a different email address.

00:11:08   Just tell the sender,

00:11:09   they can go to their member page at ATP.fm,

00:11:12   and then change the email address associated with the code,

00:11:15   and then you'll be able to redeem it.

00:11:16   So it's a pretty flexible system.

00:11:18   If you have any problems with it,

00:11:19   membership@ATP.fm, send us an email, we'll fix it,

00:11:21   but we think it should be all self-service,

00:11:23   including the delivery part.

00:11:25   Remember, make a nice card on construction paper,

00:11:27   use glitter, just put that redemption code right in there.

00:11:29   (John laughs)

00:11:31   - Well, thank you, John, genuinely.

00:11:32   Thank you, John, for all of your hard work.

00:11:34   You really did quite a lot in not a lot of time.

00:11:36   I will speak for myself.

00:11:38   I am loving the no day job, Syracuse,

00:11:41   because you are just hammering through all the ATP to-do's

00:11:45   that Marco and I have become exceptionally good

00:11:48   at kicking that can right down the road,

00:11:50   and you have been just knocking them out left and right.

00:11:51   So my public and heartfelt thanks to you, John,

00:11:54   for quitting your job.

00:11:55   - Yeah, me too.

00:11:57   For all these years, because John had a day job

00:12:00   that was not anything we could really ever see

00:12:03   in our side of the world, we didn't really ever know,

00:12:06   is John, how much of a programmer is John?

00:12:10   We knew he was very smart.

00:12:12   We knew he knew a lot about programming.

00:12:14   We knew--

00:12:14   - I see all my Perl modules.

00:12:15   - Yeah, we knew he wrote Perl, but who cares about that?

00:12:18   So this--

00:12:19   - You should see all the Perl I wrote at my day job,

00:12:21   just thousands upon thousands upon thousands

00:12:24   of lines of it.

00:12:25   - Well, and see, now we can actually see

00:12:27   what the fully deployed John is capable of.

00:12:31   It's pretty impressive.

00:12:32   GIF memberships, this is, John has had this

00:12:35   on the request list for our CMS for almost the entire time

00:12:38   we've had a CMS, and I was always very reluctant to do it,

00:12:43   'cause we would start talking like,

00:12:44   okay, well, how would this work?

00:12:46   There's so many little details that you have to figure out

00:12:49   and account for and build.

00:12:51   There's a lot to make this work and work well

00:12:54   and not have weird side effects or weird issues.

00:12:56   It's like, we sometimes will run ads on our show

00:13:00   for platforms that do this kind of thing for you,

00:13:02   and there is no better advertisement for platforms

00:13:05   that do this for you than hearing how much work it takes us

00:13:07   to try to do it ourselves.

00:13:09   And the amount of work and the size of the diff

00:13:14   on the code base for this was so big.

00:13:18   Like, again, it of course vindicates,

00:13:22   I was right to not do it all this time.

00:13:24   - I'm not sure that's the lesson

00:13:26   you should be taking from this.

00:13:28   - But yeah, also, yeah, thanks, John.

00:13:31   It's pretty great that you're doing this now,

00:13:33   and both that it is done and that we didn't have to do it.

00:13:38   Thank you.

00:13:39   - Indeed.

00:13:40   The PR, it was 2,800 lines added, 135 removed.

00:13:44   So not a small PR by any stretch of the imagination.

00:13:48   It's also been hilarious,

00:13:49   although I didn't hear much of it this time,

00:13:50   but it's been hilarious seeing Marco kind of react

00:13:52   to us doing quote-unquote real work in GitHub,

00:13:55   doing pull requests and issues and things like that.

00:13:58   And I feel like Marco's just sitting back there

00:14:00   like Michael Jackson in "Thriller" eating his popcorn,

00:14:03   going, "Wow, that's a lot of work."

00:14:04   - Yeah, watching me enjoy that PHP, just loving it.

00:14:07   - I mean, that part is very fun, I gotta be honest.

00:14:10   But yeah, again, still moving.

00:14:13   So I wish I had any time to sit back and eat popcorn

00:14:16   at any time for anything ever right now,

00:14:18   but I'm really very thankful

00:14:20   that I'm not having any of this put on my plate.

00:14:22   Thank you.

00:14:23   - All right, let's do some follow-up.

00:14:25   Thank you, John.

00:14:26   That's your gift to Marco and me, is doing all this.

00:14:28   So thank you, John.

00:14:30   Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah.

00:14:31   All right, so let's do some follow-up.

00:14:33   Let's talk about John's Blue Ocean.

00:14:35   You have some footnotes here, John.

00:14:37   How do we wanna handle this?

00:14:38   - This was a footnote in the actual article

00:14:40   from the day it was published,

00:14:42   but I should have made it more prominent

00:14:43   because I forgot about it too when we talked about it.

00:14:45   Here is the footnote.

00:14:46   This is basically the exact same URL

00:14:48   that I linked to in the footnote that many people sent us.

00:14:50   And it is a story from June 24th, 2023

00:14:53   from "The Verge" that talks about European Parliament

00:14:57   voting on regulation that would,

00:14:58   among other things, require smartphone manufacturers

00:15:01   to make their devices' batteries

00:15:02   more easily user-replaceable.

00:15:04   And that was the Blue Ocean discussion,

00:15:05   my idea that for replaceable batteries and Apple things,

00:15:08   and everyone was saying,

00:15:09   "Hey, EU's gonna make it."

00:15:10   Apple do it.

00:15:11   Of course, as with all things related to the EU

00:15:13   and their various regulations and things that they vote on,

00:15:16   takes a while to get going,

00:15:17   and you're not quite sure how it's going to work exactly.

00:15:20   Jason Eccles says that Apple says

00:15:23   it already complies with this law.

00:15:24   Of course, Apple would say that.

00:15:26   You can buy an iPhone today and change the battery.

00:15:28   They already have user-serviceable batteries.

00:15:31   They're even loaning you the tools

00:15:32   so you don't need to buy them.

00:15:34   And they've even made the removal of the back cover

00:15:35   on the phones easier for two years in a row.

00:15:38   So that is exactly the position I would imagine

00:15:40   Apple would take, but here's some more from "The Verge."

00:15:43   According to a draft version of the regulation

00:15:45   on the EU's website,

00:15:46   the batteries should be replaceable, quote,

00:15:48   "With no tool or a tool or set of tools

00:15:51   "that is supplied with the product or spare part

00:15:53   "or basic tools."

00:15:55   I mean, that's a lot of things.

00:15:57   It either has to be replaceable with no tools

00:15:59   or a tool or set of tools that is supplied

00:16:02   with the product or spare part.

00:16:03   I mean, I guess Apple complies with that

00:16:05   'cause when they sell you the part,

00:16:07   they rent you the tools or basic tools.

00:16:10   Anyway, it also says that spare parts should be available

00:16:12   for up to seven years after a phone's release

00:16:14   and perhaps most importantly,

00:16:15   the process for replacement shall be able

00:16:17   to be carried out by a layman.

00:16:19   We'll see how this ends up working.

00:16:21   - I look forward to some court case in the future

00:16:24   where Apple tries to argue that first of all,

00:16:26   that some kind of hex torque security bolt

00:16:29   is a common basic tool and what defines a layman exactly?

00:16:34   - Oh, hex tool, forget it.

00:16:36   These things are glued together.

00:16:37   There's always some process where you heat things up

00:16:39   and pry things apart and I would,

00:16:41   I don't know what the regulation's actually going to be,

00:16:45   when it's going to take effect,

00:16:47   how much of this language will still be in it,

00:16:49   but it's out there lurking potentially.

00:16:52   - I mean, and Apple's not the only one here.

00:16:54   Every big smartphone maker has essentially sealed in

00:16:58   batteries that are annoying and difficult to replace.

00:17:03   Forget about doing with no tools.

00:17:05   With tools that are supplied with the product,

00:17:08   I mean, that seems like it would cover anything.

00:17:10   It's like now, every time you buy, you know,

00:17:13   oh, I guess supply with the product or spare parts.

00:17:16   So if you buy the battery,

00:17:18   the only way you can get the replacement batteries,

00:17:19   it comes with a gigantic set of tools in Pelican cases.

00:17:22   It's like, yeah, we're compliant with the, I don't know.

00:17:24   I don't know what they're trying to do with this thing.

00:17:26   Are they trying to make it so people's phones last longer?

00:17:27   Are they trying to make it so that you can actually

00:17:30   have user replaceable batteries?

00:17:31   We'll see, but that's out there,

00:17:34   just like the USB-C thing was.

00:17:35   We talked about it for years and it eventually happened,

00:17:38   so maybe this one will too.

00:17:39   - All right, let's talk about the beeper battle.

00:17:43   So last, where did we leave this last?

00:17:45   It was working last we spoke about it, right?

00:17:47   Is that correct?

00:17:48   - Yes, and we were saying like, hey,

00:17:50   maybe don't get too used to this working for very long.

00:17:53   - Exactly, so Apple has, since that time,

00:17:57   Apple cut it off and then apparently beeper

00:18:01   has come up with some workarounds.

00:18:03   I'll get into a little bit of details here.

00:18:05   Come up with some workarounds to get it back asterisk.

00:18:08   And that's the most recent as we record

00:18:11   on Wednesday night as far as we know.

00:18:12   So this all started with Apple issuing a statement.

00:18:15   Apple says, at Apple, we build our products and services

00:18:18   with industry leading privacy and security technologies

00:18:20   designed to give users control of their data

00:18:22   and keep personal information safe.

00:18:24   We took steps to protect our users by blocking techniques

00:18:28   that exploit fake credentials

00:18:29   in order to gain access to iMessage.

00:18:30   These techniques pose significant risks

00:18:32   to user security and privacy,

00:18:34   including the potential for metadata exposure

00:18:36   and enabling unwanted messages, spam, and phishing attacks.

00:18:38   We will continue to make updates in the future

00:18:40   to protect our users.

00:18:41   - I don't know why you moaned about the pose significant

00:18:43   risks to security and privacy,

00:18:45   because I think that's pretty much 100% true, right?

00:18:49   Like the whole idea of the iMessage ecosystem

00:18:52   is they have clients and servers and Apple writes them both.

00:18:54   So Apple knows that they're not secretly taking your messages

00:18:57   in plain text and sending them off to a server somewhere,

00:18:59   because Apple could do that.

00:19:00   Like if it's encrypted, Apple can get your messages.

00:19:03   Well, they could, because they display them on the screen.

00:19:05   Like they write the client application.

00:19:07   But Apple knows they're not doing that

00:19:09   because they're Apple and they control all the ends.

00:19:11   Once there's a third party client doing this,

00:19:14   of course, at some point, the third party client

00:19:15   has to decrypt and decode the messages

00:19:18   and display them on people's screens.

00:19:19   And at that point, they could send them off

00:19:21   to a server somewhere and save them.

00:19:22   And you know, like, and Apple doesn't have any control

00:19:25   over those third parties.

00:19:26   So I think it does pose a significant risk

00:19:28   to the security and privacy of everyone who's on the network

00:19:31   because if you can't tell that you're messaging somebody

00:19:33   who's using a third party client,

00:19:34   that third party client could be doing anything

00:19:36   and Apple has no idea what it's doing.

00:19:38   Now, is Bieber doing that?

00:19:39   No, I'm sure it's not.

00:19:40   Like that's not their business,

00:19:41   not stealing all your messages.

00:19:43   But Apple doesn't know that.

00:19:44   So when you have a system like iMessage and their servers,

00:19:48   where the security, where Apple can voucher the security

00:19:50   because they make the client and the server

00:19:52   and they don't allow third party clients,

00:19:54   that's kind of an essential part of the system.

00:19:56   And now is that, you know,

00:19:57   were they really concerned about people's security?

00:19:59   Is that the main reason they did this?

00:20:00   No, maybe not.

00:20:02   But it is definitely a reason

00:20:03   and I think it's a valid reason.

00:20:06   - All right, that's fair enough.

00:20:07   - There's multiple battles going on here.

00:20:08   You know, one is like the technical battle

00:20:11   between Bieber and Apple and maybe they'll try

00:20:13   to play some cat and mouse game for a little bit longer,

00:20:15   maybe not.

00:20:17   Also there's the PR battle and I think this is,

00:20:20   I think Apple's trying to squash this

00:20:22   and move on as quickly as possible.

00:20:23   Beeper is, I think, trying to prolong the PR battle

00:20:28   or inflame it as much as possible

00:20:30   because at the end of the day,

00:20:32   while I applaud this level of like reverse engineering

00:20:36   and hacking because I think it's kind of cool as a nerd,

00:20:40   they have no right to do this.

00:20:42   Like there is, I don't think it's a good thing

00:20:45   for anybody, you know, the world or Apple or Beeper

00:20:50   for them to keep trying to fight this fight

00:20:54   and I don't think it's a great experience

00:20:56   for their customers to have to try

00:20:57   to ride this rollercoaster with them.

00:20:59   I think the reality is what this is very clearly

00:21:03   is, you know, not only, you know, some kind of,

00:21:06   you can call it a hack maybe, you know,

00:21:08   that word has grown very vague over time

00:21:11   but I would also call it theft of services.

00:21:13   They're building a commercial business

00:21:16   on stealing access to Apple's iMessage servers

00:21:20   and service in an unauthorized way.

00:21:23   - That's a great business plan.

00:21:23   Our business plan is we're not gonna run servers,

00:21:26   we're gonna use somebody else's servers.

00:21:27   Oh, so they're letting you use their servers?

00:21:28   No, they're not letting us.

00:21:29   - Yeah, like--

00:21:30   - But they're gonna be a foundational part of our business

00:21:32   so we're gonna use their servers without any permission

00:21:35   and hope that we don't get caught

00:21:37   or they can't stop us.

00:21:38   Write that into your business plan.

00:21:39   See how much funding you get.

00:21:41   And by the way, who is the company?

00:21:42   Oh, it's the richest company in the world.

00:21:43   Oh, that'll work out great.

00:21:44   - And they really don't want you to be doing this.

00:21:46   So like, it's not like iMessage just some like,

00:21:49   you know, side thing for Apple they don't care about.

00:21:51   No, it's pretty important.

00:21:52   It's a very important aspect

00:21:54   of their most important product.

00:21:55   - And if you didn't wanna be noticed,

00:21:56   you can't like have publicity in marketing.

00:21:58   Like maybe Apple wouldn't notice.

00:21:59   If it was just that high school student

00:22:01   making his own client and running it against iMessage

00:22:04   and impressing all his friends with his blue bubbles,

00:22:05   Apple probably never would have noticed.

00:22:06   But if it's a business, they'll notice.

00:22:08   - That's the thing.

00:22:09   You know, so they can keep playing

00:22:11   the technical cat and mouse game.

00:22:13   Ultimately, I would imagine they will have

00:22:15   a legal battle on their hands

00:22:16   and they will lose that one promptly and severely.

00:22:20   And so I can't imagine this is going to end well

00:22:24   for Beeper or anybody who relies on this.

00:22:27   I said last time, this is, you know,

00:22:29   it kinda like the Hackintosh,

00:22:30   like you know, you shouldn't,

00:22:31   as a customer, I wouldn't advise that you assume

00:22:34   this will work at all in the future.

00:22:36   I wouldn't make any hardware buying decisions based on this.

00:22:38   So for instance, if you were not buying an Android phone

00:22:42   because you wanted iMessage and this comes out

00:22:45   and you're like great, now I can buy an Android phone?

00:22:46   Like I would maybe not count on that being a thing.

00:22:49   Like if you wanna, if you already have an Android phone,

00:22:52   fine, if you wanna buy an Android phone anyway

00:22:54   for other experimentation, fine.

00:22:55   Or if you wanna convert to it for other reasons, fine.

00:22:58   But don't make any decisions based on this working

00:23:00   'cause it already is semi-broken

00:23:02   and I think will be promptly shut down by Apple legal

00:23:07   pretty soon if nothing else.

00:23:08   Because you know, again, like when you're building

00:23:11   a Hackintosh or you know, unlocking your DVD player

00:23:14   or whatever, that's a little bit different

00:23:16   because you are like gaining access to a device

00:23:19   that you already bought that kinda doesn't leave your home.

00:23:23   So who cares?

00:23:24   But in this case, they are literally like

00:23:27   hacking Apple's service.

00:23:29   They're running this service.

00:23:31   They are literally hacking into Apple's service

00:23:33   and stealing use of it and then making

00:23:35   a commercial product out of that.

00:23:36   Like that is beyond any reasonable line

00:23:39   and whatever you think about iMessage and Lockin

00:23:43   and anything else, frankly, I don't think it's that big

00:23:45   of a deal because you know, if you look around the world,

00:23:47   iMessage is pretty big in the US.

00:23:49   It's not very big outside of the US

00:23:52   because the rest of the world has discovered things

00:23:54   like WhatsApp and Line and all the other different chat apps

00:23:59   that everyone uses in different places.

00:24:01   WeChat, you know, all the big ones that are

00:24:04   in the rest of the world outside of the US,

00:24:06   iMessage doesn't really have that much of a monopoly there.

00:24:08   If anything, I think any market for this

00:24:11   has probably already come and gone

00:24:13   because anybody who has mixed chat groups

00:24:15   or uses an Android with, you know,

00:24:18   outside of the US or whatever,

00:24:19   those groups are all using other apps

00:24:21   for their chat platforms.

00:24:23   If anything, this shows maybe Apple should have made

00:24:26   iMessage for Android a long time ago

00:24:28   but today it's almost moot.

00:24:29   You know, I don't think this is gonna change much

00:24:31   of anything but regardless, Beeper, it's a cool hack

00:24:35   that the 16 year old kid who figured out

00:24:37   this reverse engineering, it's very technically impressive

00:24:41   but this is not a business and the sooner this stops,

00:24:45   the better it'll be, honestly, for Beeper

00:24:47   'cause it's only gonna get worse from here.

00:24:49   - Yeah, Beeper re-enabled it and they had a reply

00:24:53   to Apple's statement that we'll link in the show notes

00:24:56   where they were very indignant and they're like,

00:24:57   what is Apple saying about security?

00:24:58   We made it more secure because previously people

00:25:00   were sending SMS and all sorts of, you know,

00:25:02   ridiculous statements like that where it's like,

00:25:04   look, if people on Android wanna talk to people

00:25:06   on iPhones with end-to-end security,

00:25:08   they can just use WhatsApp.

00:25:09   Like, it's not like you're the only possible option here

00:25:12   but anyway, they eventually get down to like

00:25:13   the bargaining stage, like, look, if Apple's worried

00:25:15   about security and privacy, we'll give them the source code

00:25:18   so they can see if it's secure themselves

00:25:20   and we'll even have a third party security team look at it

00:25:23   and if they really want us to, we'll put a pager emoji

00:25:25   next to all of our messages so they'll know messages

00:25:27   are coming from us and it's like, they don't wanna vet

00:25:30   your source code, they don't want you to use their network

00:25:32   at all, they didn't invite you, they didn't tell you

00:25:34   you can use their servers, like, if they're worried

00:25:36   about security here, you look at our source code.

00:25:38   What are you, trying to give them homework?

00:25:40   They just don't want you to use their servers.

00:25:41   Like, this kind of bargaining, like, saying, look,

00:25:44   we're doing everything we can, we're bending over backwards,

00:25:46   I don't see what Apple's problem is.

00:25:47   The problem is they never invited you to use their servers.

00:25:50   It's not a public service, it doesn't have a public API,

00:25:52   it is not a platform, do you understand, you're not allowed

00:25:56   to use it and they don't, we'll give them our source code.

00:25:59   How about you just go out of business?

00:26:01   Like, if you're willing to, like, you know, do whatever

00:26:03   Apple wants you to do, Apple wants you just to go away.

00:26:04   - You can't sit with us.

00:26:06   - Yeah, exactly, like, if Apple wanted iMessage on Android,

00:26:09   they would just make it themselves, they don't need

00:26:12   Beeper to do this for them.

00:26:13   - Well, here's the thing, like, if you wanted to go

00:26:15   this route, you should've gone to Apple and said, hey,

00:26:17   we think you should open up iMessage and we think we should

00:26:19   be the contractor to build the third party client

00:26:22   for Android, and if Apple said, okay, then they would have

00:26:23   a contract and you would do that and that, you know,

00:26:25   would Apple agree to that, probably not, they'd probably

00:26:27   try to do it themselves and do a bad job, but whatever,

00:26:29   that's the Apple way for, you know, apps that are on other

00:26:31   platforms, see QuickTime and Safari for Windows.

00:26:34   It's like, but that didn't happen.

00:26:36   Apple doesn't appear to want that.

00:26:38   If you want that to happen, you need to convince Apple

00:26:41   because it's their service, I don't understand it, so.

00:26:43   - And you won't convince them.

00:26:45   - It's so, I mean, maybe you would, maybe you can convince

00:26:47   them, I don't know, like, maybe Apple's gonna decide

00:26:49   to do it on their own, but that's not what's happening here.

00:26:51   Instead, it's just, it's really like, the high school

00:26:53   student is a great sort of avatar for this because it is

00:26:56   kind of the level of like, the, you know, sort of

00:26:58   indignant child saying, what do you want from me?

00:27:00   I just, I don't know why you won't let me use your servers

00:27:02   and charge people for it, so mean.

00:27:05   Here, look at my source code, it's fine, look, we're not

00:27:07   doing, it's everything, ugh, anyway, not a fan of Bieber.

00:27:10   - Yeah, I'm trying to picture like, how I would react

00:27:12   if someone did this to Overcast, like if someone

00:27:14   reverse engineered the Overcast API and made an Android app

00:27:17   and started charging money for it.

00:27:18   - Yeah, they were making Android podcast client,

00:27:21   they didn't want to run their servers, so I just used

00:27:23   Marco's servers.

00:27:24   - Yeah, and just advertise, oh yeah, this is Overcast now,

00:27:26   you're using Overcast right here.

00:27:27   - And they would charge a subscription for their app.

00:27:30   - Right, that's probably more expensive than mine,

00:27:32   and then they would come to me.

00:27:33   - And they would say, Marco, if you're worried about it,

00:27:34   we'll send you the source code to our app,

00:27:36   and then you'll know that it's okay.

00:27:37   - Yeah, I can just audit that on my own time somehow

00:27:39   whenever I feel like it.

00:27:40   - And let you continue to make money while using my

00:27:42   server backend that you're not paying for.

00:27:44   - And I have no control over what they do with my app

00:27:46   or, you know, the service, or yeah, that's, like,

00:27:48   I would shut that down so quickly, like,

00:27:51   and I wouldn't care if I burned all my old clients.

00:27:53   I would still, I would shut it down immediately,

00:27:56   and I would not feel bad even for a second.

00:27:59   And so I cannot fault Apple for this at all.

00:28:02   Apple is 100% in the right, it is their prerogative

00:28:05   to do whatever they want with the service,

00:28:07   and the idea of having some other app interact

00:28:10   with your servers that you don't control,

00:28:12   where the, as John mentioned at first,

00:28:14   like, the security of the entire thing is part of your

00:28:19   main product, it's part of the integrity,

00:28:21   it's part of the selling point.

00:28:22   - The most used app in iOS, at least in the US anyway.

00:28:25   - Yeah, like, I would never in a million years allow

00:28:29   a third party to be, you know, hacking my stuff

00:28:31   on the side there with my service outside of my control.

00:28:34   That, I would never in a million years allow that,

00:28:36   and Apple sure as heck won't,

00:28:38   and this is going to be over very soon.

00:28:40   We are sponsored this week by Notion.

00:28:44   Notion combines your notes, documents, and projects

00:28:47   all together in one beautiful space,

00:28:50   and now Notion has a really powerful new AI feature.

00:28:54   Notion AI makes it easier than ever to navigate

00:28:57   your beautiful notes, documents, and projects.

00:28:59   It's an AI assistant called Q&A that can answer questions

00:29:03   about your content, so answers questions about, say,

00:29:05   next quarter's roadmap, or you can find that

00:29:07   marketing campaign proposal you're looking for,

00:29:09   you can dig up a long lost link all in seconds,

00:29:12   and it makes use of your entire database of knowledge

00:29:15   to make sure the answers are actually helpful.

00:29:17   And also, it does this while keeping your data secure.

00:29:20   Notion AI is designed to protect your information.

00:29:23   No AI models are trained with your info.

00:29:25   The data's always encrypted, and answers will never

00:29:28   use information from pages you don't have access to,

00:29:30   so it preserves all the access controls

00:29:32   and privacy that you need.

00:29:33   You can ask Q&A questions from anywhere in Notion.

00:29:36   You can find exactly what you need

00:29:38   without leaving the document you're in right now.

00:29:40   You can stay focused on your important work.

00:29:42   You can just ask Notion AI, ask the Q&A feature,

00:29:46   anything you might have asked, maybe a coworker before.

00:29:48   It can search through thousands of documents in seconds,

00:29:51   and answer your question in clear language,

00:29:53   no matter how large or complex your workspace is.

00:29:56   So with Notion AI, it's even easier than ever

00:29:59   to do your most meaningful work.

00:30:01   Try Notion AI for free when you go to notion.com/atp.

00:30:06   That's all lowercase letters.

00:30:08   Notion.com/atp, all lowercase,

00:30:11   to try the powerful, easy-to-use Notion AI today.

00:30:15   I'm gonna use that link, you're supporting our show.

00:30:17   One more time, that's notion.com/atp.

00:30:20   Thank you so much to Notion and the powerful new Notion AI

00:30:24   for sponsoring our show.

00:30:25   - ECC RAM, it just won't die.

00:30:31   - I mean, it won't die because there are still nuances

00:30:35   that we haven't gotten right,

00:30:36   so we're gonna keep doing it until we get it right.

00:30:37   This'll be the last time, though.

00:30:38   This has gotta be the last time we gotta get it right.

00:30:40   - Well, it will die, but it will tell you that it has died.

00:30:43   - Yeah, exactly.

00:30:44   So to refresh everyone's memory,

00:30:45   this was originally like an Ask ATP question,

00:30:48   basically saying, ECC memory used to be a thing,

00:30:51   now on Apple Silicon.

00:30:52   Is it a thing?

00:30:53   Should it be?

00:30:54   What's the deal?

00:30:54   And we've been narrowing,

00:30:56   getting closer and closer to the truth.

00:30:58   One final update from, of course, Jonathan Dietz Jr.

00:31:02   And where last we left it was basically to summarize

00:31:08   that the RAM used in the latest Apple Silicon things

00:31:10   have on-die ECC and support link ECC,

00:31:14   which is the ECC in transit between the RAM and the SOC.

00:31:18   But we weren't sure if Apple was using that.

00:31:20   So the upshot was like, oh,

00:31:22   they could have as good ECC as the Xeons did.

00:31:26   We're not sure if they do,

00:31:27   but they should have better ECC

00:31:30   than the plain old consumer Intels

00:31:32   that didn't have ECC in the old days.

00:31:33   Here is further clarification for that.

00:31:36   On-die ECC is not part of the JEDEC,

00:31:39   is that right, JEDEC?

00:31:41   - I always heard JEDEC.

00:31:42   - There you go.

00:31:43   On-die ECC is not part of the JEDEC specifications

00:31:46   for LPDDR memories.

00:31:47   It is implemented in various proprietary fashions

00:31:49   by DRAM manufacturers to increase the yields

00:31:51   on leading edge process notes.

00:31:52   This is what we heard from a lot of people,

00:31:53   like, oh, that error correction is not for correcting errors.

00:31:56   It's actually just for correcting errors,

00:31:57   which is very confusing,

00:31:58   but it's like, what was the motivation?

00:32:00   The motivation, I'll continue reading here.

00:32:03   Not all LPDDR4 chips incorporate on-die ECC, however.

00:32:07   Many do.

00:32:08   It really depends on which manufacturing process you use,

00:32:10   and we'll link to a white paper

00:32:11   that sums up the issue in the show notes.

00:32:13   Jonathan continues, as you correctly surmised,

00:32:17   Apple has gone out of their way to minimize trace lengths

00:32:19   to ensure the highest possible signal integrity

00:32:21   with their on-package memory for Apple Silicon.

00:32:23   They also minimize electrical loading

00:32:25   by placing only a single die or rank on each LPDDR channel

00:32:29   and have elected to stick with relatively conservative

00:32:31   LPDDR6400 speeds rather than pushing the envelope

00:32:34   with something like LPDDR5X9600.

00:32:37   Apple doesn't appear to have link ECC enabled

00:32:40   on the M series chip, and it's not clear to me

00:32:42   that the memory controller is necessarily supported.

00:32:44   If they're simply using DesignWare IP from Synopsys,

00:32:47   then it's probably along for the ride, but who knows?

00:32:50   Classic sideband ECC, where you have extra DRAM devices

00:32:53   written in red back by the memory controller

00:32:54   provides end-to-end SECDED, Sec-ded?

00:32:59   Yeah.

00:33:00   Single bit error correction, double bit error detection.

00:33:02   I think we talked about this in the past show.

00:33:04   Neither on die nor link ECC do that.

00:33:07   So this is the important distinction

00:33:08   that we didn't get at before.

00:33:09   All this ECC stuff we're talking about

00:33:11   does not do single bit error correction

00:33:12   or double bit error detection.

00:33:14   So what does it do?

00:33:15   On die ECC silently corrects any single bit errors

00:33:18   that happen on die with no involvement from the host system.

00:33:20   This allows DRAM manufacturers to sell chips

00:33:22   that may contain a sprinkling of defective bits

00:33:25   as known good dies and their customers are none the wiser.

00:33:27   As an added benefit, on die ECC will also correct

00:33:30   any single bit errors caused by external factors

00:33:32   in rows that are otherwise free of manufacturing defects.

00:33:34   Did you get that a little bit?

00:33:35   So like they do this so they can sell you RAM

00:33:38   that has bad bits because they know the ECC will fix it.

00:33:41   But also if a cosmic ray hits your chip,

00:33:44   they'll fix that too, provided it happened

00:33:47   on one of the things that didn't already have a defect.

00:33:50   So if the cosmic ray hits one of the good cells in the RAM,

00:33:55   it causes an error, ECC sees it,

00:33:57   on die ECC sees it and fixes it, great.

00:34:00   If the cosmic ray hits one of those rows

00:34:02   that had a bad manufacturing defect

00:34:03   and it was only working because ECC

00:34:05   was fixing the one bit errors,

00:34:06   now you've got a two bit error and it can't correct that.

00:34:09   So this is the important distinction.

00:34:11   John, I think I didn't use.

00:34:14   There is no mechanism present to inform the host system

00:34:17   when errors are corrected or uncorrected errors

00:34:19   are encountered.

00:34:20   So if you get that two bit error,

00:34:22   not only is it not corrected,

00:34:23   but the RAM chip can't tell you about it.

00:34:25   So that error is getting passed on and link ECC

00:34:28   doesn't matter because at that point

00:34:29   you've got erroneous data coming off the RAM chips.

00:34:32   So that's a bummer.

00:34:34   When the memory controller handles ECC,

00:34:35   it can track errors using counters

00:34:37   and provide substantially more robust features.

00:34:39   For instance, John's Xeon based Mac Pro

00:34:41   reports memory errors for each DIMM and system information

00:34:44   and macOS will alert you when the DIMMs are failing

00:34:46   and require replacement.

00:34:47   This is a fun thing from back in the Intel days.

00:34:50   I think it was my 2008 Mac Pro,

00:34:51   might've even been my G3, I don't remember,

00:34:53   but one of those big tower computers with an Intel CPU

00:34:57   that I owned that had DIMMs in it

00:34:59   had little red LED lights on each little slot

00:35:03   that the memory DIMMs went in.

00:35:05   And if you had a band DIMM or inserted in the wrong place

00:35:07   or whatever, it would light up red

00:35:08   to tell you which one was bad.

00:35:10   Amazing, loved it.

00:35:11   - You can even see it in the, like about this Mac thing.

00:35:13   It would tell you like the,

00:35:14   I think it would tell you the error count

00:35:15   on each DIMM, right?

00:35:16   - Yeah.

00:35:17   And that's the full fledged ECC

00:35:19   where every single DIMM has extra memory.

00:35:21   We talked about it before.

00:35:22   That's implemented by the memory controller, right?

00:35:24   That is a more robust solution.

00:35:25   So Jonathan continues,

00:35:27   all DDR5 memories implement on die ECC,

00:35:30   yet DDR5 DIMMs with extra chips for Sideband ECC

00:35:33   are still a thing.

00:35:34   In fact, because DDR5 DIMMs are divided

00:35:36   into two 32-bit channels,

00:35:37   the ECC versions are 80 bits wide

00:35:39   and require two or more additional chips

00:35:41   to store the ECC data.

00:35:43   LPDDR channels and die interfaces are both 16 bits wide,

00:35:45   so adding one extra die per channel to implement Sideband ECC

00:35:48   will require doubling the number of DRAM dies.

00:35:51   This is obviously not a practical solution.

00:35:53   If you want to achieve the same level of ECC available

00:35:55   on Xeon's and AMD Epic platforms using LPDDR memory,

00:35:58   you have to implement inline ECC.

00:36:00   In this scheme, the memory controller stores ECC code

00:36:02   along with the actual data on the same die

00:36:04   without making the channel wider.

00:36:05   Obviously, this comes along

00:36:07   with some performance implications

00:36:08   and a reduction in memory size available for storing data.

00:36:11   To date, Apple has not implemented inline ECC

00:36:13   on Apple Silicon Macs.

00:36:14   So to sum up,

00:36:17   ECC, is it a thing on Apple Silicon?

00:36:19   Not in the same way it was on Intel Xeons,

00:36:23   but in slightly more ways than it was on non-Xeon Intel Macs.

00:36:28   Could Apple have been, Apple still can benefit from it?

00:36:31   I think so, yes, but the costs involved mean

00:36:34   that the only place it would really be appropriate

00:36:36   would be on the Mac Pro,

00:36:37   if Apple continues to make that a thing,

00:36:39   and maybe on the highest of high-end Mac studios.

00:36:42   And based on all of this,

00:36:44   my guess would be that Apple is never going to do

00:36:46   either one of those things,

00:36:47   because it's so expensive,

00:36:50   and like, 'cause they don't wanna do the inline one,

00:36:52   'cause you don't wanna take a performance hit,

00:36:53   and the other one is just so much more expensive,

00:36:56   that I don't think there's any appetite for that

00:36:58   from Apple's customers or from Apple itself,

00:37:01   which is kind of a bummer,

00:37:02   but as many people who wrote in, you know,

00:37:06   pointed out or supposed,

00:37:08   we got ECC for all those years on the Intel Mac Pro,

00:37:12   because Intel put it there,

00:37:14   and Apple essentially got it,

00:37:15   because if you wanted a Xeon,

00:37:16   it supported ECC memory,

00:37:17   like it's just, you know, there you go, right?

00:37:20   I suppose they could have not taken it or whatever,

00:37:23   but it was already there.

00:37:24   It was part, it was priced into the package.

00:37:25   Now that Apple gets to decide what features exist,

00:37:28   and now that Apple's decisions

00:37:29   about what features to implement

00:37:31   really are not focused on the Mac Pro,

00:37:33   like at all, I can't imagine this ever appearing,

00:37:36   but I still think that if there's one computer

00:37:39   that it would be appropriate for, it would be the Mac Pro.

00:37:41   The rest of them, probably not.

00:37:44   Anyway, watch out for those cosmic rays.

00:37:46   (laughs)

00:37:46   - Yeah, I mean, I think you're probably right.

00:37:48   They probably won't ever do it again,

00:37:50   but if they are looking for more things

00:37:53   to differentiate the Mac Pro,

00:37:55   and maybe even the Mac Studio,

00:37:57   from say, the laptops or the entire rest of the product line,

00:38:01   that is something they could do.

00:38:02   Again, I think you're probably right, they probably won't,

00:38:05   but it would be at least a differentiating feature.

00:38:09   - Yeah, I mean, and why does Intel do it?

00:38:11   Like, everyone always points this out

00:38:13   in their emails to us.

00:38:14   Like, well, where is it really important

00:38:16   that you handle these error cases?

00:38:18   Things like money, right?

00:38:19   One bit gets flipped and you don't detect it

00:38:21   in a money transfer thing.

00:38:23   That could be a lot of money gained or lost

00:38:25   in a millisecond, right?

00:38:26   It's a big deal, and so you want redundancy,

00:38:30   protection against everything you possibly can.

00:38:33   And cosmic rays, like, they're gonna come,

00:38:35   they're gonna tunnel through your data center,

00:38:37   and you don't know how deep underground you make it,

00:38:39   there's probably some cosmic ray that's getting in there,

00:38:41   errors in manufacturing.

00:38:42   You do not want those to happen without you knowing about it.

00:38:46   It's fine to detect it and throw up your hands and say,

00:38:48   "I cannot continue," and just halt the whole machine.

00:38:50   That is better than accidentally adding

00:38:51   or moving billions of dollars

00:38:53   because some bit flips somewhere, right?

00:38:55   Or thousands, or, you know, one cent, or like, whatever.

00:38:58   You just, you really want the numbers to add up

00:39:00   at the end of money stuff.

00:39:02   And similarly for like safety systems on, you know,

00:39:05   weapon systems or medical things or whatever,

00:39:07   there are cases where you wanna do everything

00:39:09   you possibly can to protect the integrity of the memory,

00:39:13   but there's pretty much nothing that Apple does

00:39:15   except for the car that they haven't ever shipped,

00:39:16   where that rises to that level of reliability concern.

00:39:20   So then it's really just a matter of, okay, well,

00:39:22   are they putting so much RAM in some machine

00:39:24   that the odds of an undetected one-bit error

00:39:27   become 100% over the course of a year of running

00:39:29   or something, and how important is that, you know?

00:39:33   So I loved it when I had it.

00:39:34   I liked the little lights on the DIMMs.

00:39:37   I would take it if they gave it to me,

00:39:39   but reading all this makes it seem like

00:39:41   I'm not gonna get it.

00:39:43   - Joe Lyon has some thoughts on US fabs

00:39:46   and the semiconductor business.

00:39:47   Joe writes, "In addition to Intel and TSMC

00:39:50   building fabs in the US,

00:39:51   Micron is building two fabs in the US as well.

00:39:53   That sentence would have been unthinkable

00:39:55   just a few years ago.

00:39:56   When Moore's Law was going at full steam

00:39:58   in the '80s to 2000s, semiconductor companies

00:40:00   could be careful about building too many fabs

00:40:03   because process node shrinks basically made it

00:40:05   so that companies could continue to pump out

00:40:07   more transistors year after year,

00:40:09   while using roughly the same amount of wafers,

00:40:10   or increasing the wafer outs or the number of fabs

00:40:13   at a reasonable pace.

00:40:14   But with silicon shrinks slowing way, way down

00:40:17   for all kinds of chips, in the future,

00:40:19   the main way to pump out more gigabytes of memory or storage

00:40:21   or more logic transistors, et cetera,

00:40:23   is going to be to build new fabs and generate more wafers.

00:40:26   Instead of relying on process shrinks

00:40:28   as a way to continue growing transistor outputs,

00:40:30   the future is going to have to also rely

00:40:31   on massively expanding the number of fabs and wafers

00:40:33   to keep up with transistor demand growth."

00:40:36   - So watch for that gigantic silicon fab opening

00:40:39   somewhere near you.

00:40:40   - I am at least not at all well versed

00:40:42   on things like world politics,

00:40:44   or even the ins and outs of the semiconductor trade.

00:40:47   But looking at things like the US,

00:40:49   the CHIPS Act or whatever it was called,

00:40:51   where we're funding a whole bunch of fab stuff,

00:40:53   and I know a lot of it's basically going to Intel

00:40:55   and stuff, that's fine.

00:40:56   But looking at a lot of this stuff,

00:40:58   the computer industry has grown up during an era

00:41:03   of pretty stable world peace in most of the world.

00:41:08   We've been able to have things like free trade with China,

00:41:13   with Taiwan, all these very globalized economies.

00:41:18   We have this assumption that we will always be able

00:41:20   to do this, and therefore, like,

00:41:22   oh, we can build all these chips in Taiwan

00:41:24   because of course that will always continue to be available

00:41:28   and we won't have any problems at all by doing that.

00:41:32   And I think it's probably better for the industry

00:41:36   to start building in some safeties, to start diversifying.

00:41:39   Have factories in multiple countries

00:41:42   that make critical parts, be able to do as much stuff

00:41:45   as you can domestically in a country as big as the US.

00:41:48   Hopefully we should have our own capacity

00:41:51   for a lot of this stuff.

00:41:51   And I know, again, I don't know anything about this business

00:41:54   to the level that other podcasters do talk about this,

00:41:57   and analysts and stuff.

00:41:59   But to the extent that we can,

00:42:01   I know we are pretty far from being able to make

00:42:06   cutting edge chips and cutting edge fabs here in the US.

00:42:09   I know that.

00:42:11   And we might stay that way forever, who knows?

00:42:13   But it is probably a good idea, for lots of reasons,

00:42:18   to build as much as we can with our own capacity here.

00:42:23   And so all the stuff that we're seeing,

00:42:25   new fabs being built, funding for them,

00:42:27   different geopolitical effects,

00:42:29   I think this is probably for the best.

00:42:31   The more we can build here, probably the better.

00:42:35   - And even things like TSMC, not a US company,

00:42:38   having them make fabs inside the US is another hedge,

00:42:41   because they can, in theory,

00:42:43   do have the cutting edge knowledge.

00:42:45   The fabs they're making here

00:42:46   I don't think are going to be cutting edge,

00:42:47   but in theory they could be in the future.

00:42:49   - Yeah, exactly.

00:42:51   You gotta start somewhere.

00:42:52   And so all this reinvestment

00:42:56   and this new capacity we're building out,

00:42:59   it's a good start.

00:43:00   It is far from the end, but it's a good start.

00:43:03   - Yeah, and I would say, second only to healthcare,

00:43:06   I think computer chips are going to be a business

00:43:10   for the foreseeable future.

00:43:12   (laughing)

00:43:13   It's not like they're going away.

00:43:14   Maybe they'll be replaced by quantum things.

00:43:16   All I'm saying is this is an industry

00:43:18   that is not a flash in the pan.

00:43:21   Computers will be with us for a very long time,

00:43:24   and as they evolve, we should make sure

00:43:26   we have some piece of that business.

00:43:28   Obviously we have many parts of that.

00:43:29   The US is doing great in terms of operating system platforms.

00:43:32   The two main phone platforms are US,

00:43:34   it's Google and Apple, right?

00:43:36   And the PC platforms, Microsoft and Apple.

00:43:40   We've done a lot of great things here,

00:43:41   but there are some gaps,

00:43:42   and silicon chips are definitely one of them.

00:43:45   - Jon, tell me that you've found a solution

00:43:48   to this problem that only you are having

00:43:50   with the Sonos Roam.

00:43:52   - Yeah, so I have been gathering a bunch of stuff

00:43:55   related to my Sonos Roam that would occasionally stutter

00:43:58   when I tried to play music to it through AirPlay,

00:43:59   and my solution, my workaround had been

00:44:01   to either restart the Roam, restart the phone, or both.

00:44:04   I've also tried the thing that someone suggested,

00:44:06   maybe it was Gee Rambo or something.

00:44:07   If your phone is set up as a developer device

00:44:10   and you go to the developer settings screen,

00:44:13   there's a thing that says reset media services.

00:44:16   That also works, by the way.

00:44:17   I've done that a few times.

00:44:18   Reset media services usually also fixes the problem.

00:44:21   Anyway, since I reported that,

00:44:24   many, many people sent me many, many links

00:44:27   from many long-suffering Sonos customers

00:44:30   over the course of many years

00:44:31   having exactly the same problem with the Sonos Roam.

00:44:34   We will put many of those links in the show notes.

00:44:37   Solutions are offered.

00:44:40   All the solutions they suggested

00:44:41   did not actually fix the problem for me,

00:44:43   but people continue to suffer with it.

00:44:45   Someone even thought it was a manufacturing defect

00:44:47   and that the new ones didn't have it.

00:44:49   I don't think that's true

00:44:50   because I've purchased two of these

00:44:51   over the course of many years,

00:44:52   and the most recent one has the same problem as the old one.

00:44:54   Here's the upshot.

00:44:55   The current situation is that I have heard

00:44:58   that this problem is being worked on inside Sonos.

00:45:02   So I'm out here,

00:45:03   kind of like I was with the wind of Dragonbug,

00:45:04   saying fingers crossed, they know about it at Sonos.

00:45:08   They should know about it

00:45:09   because a lot of the links we're gonna put in

00:45:10   are like the community sites on Sonos,

00:45:12   like the Sonos' own forums.

00:45:13   People were complaining about it for years,

00:45:15   and maybe me complaining about it on a podcast

00:45:17   gave it a little, you know, nudge, kick,

00:45:20   but it's still happening,

00:45:22   but in theory, someone is working on it,

00:45:24   so that's the situation.

00:45:25   I will let you know if and when a firmware update arrives

00:45:27   in my house that fixes the problem.

00:45:29   In the meantime, I'll just keep rebooting things.

00:45:32   - Fun.

00:45:34   Feedback from at this point, two or three months ago,

00:45:36   we were talking about AWS S3 Glacier,

00:45:39   and this is, I don't know if I'm the best person

00:45:42   to give a summary of it,

00:45:43   but basically long-term file storage

00:45:44   that's allegedly very slow, but it's very cheap,

00:45:48   and I forget exactly who it was.

00:45:49   I assume Jon was theorizing,

00:45:51   oh, maybe it's on like optical media or tape

00:45:53   or something like that.

00:45:54   - It was a rumor.

00:45:55   It's a story that you hear.

00:45:56   If you're involved with AWS S3

00:45:57   and you hear about Glacier,

00:45:58   someone will mention the rumor that,

00:46:00   oh, they're using optical drives or Blu-ray discs

00:46:03   or something, whatever was like the cheap but slow.

00:46:05   Yeah, exactly.

00:46:07   - Yeah, because the whole thing is like,

00:46:08   you know, Glacier, it's like S3 sort of.

00:46:11   However, it's way cheaper to store things,

00:46:15   and the idea is the trade-off you're making

00:46:17   by it being way cheaper to store things

00:46:19   is they make it more expensive to get data back out,

00:46:22   and it's slow to get data back out.

00:46:24   So the idea of Glacier is if you have a lot of data

00:46:27   to store that you tend to write a lot more than you read,

00:46:31   so for instance, archives of log files

00:46:34   or like database backups or things like,

00:46:37   you're writing them a lot,

00:46:38   you hardly ever have to read them,

00:46:39   but you really want very cheap storage,

00:46:43   then that's what Glacier's for.

00:46:44   So that's why there were all these weird rumors

00:46:46   when it came out, like how are they doing this?

00:46:48   It was way cheaper than S3.

00:46:49   They were like, maybe they have some kind of

00:46:52   like tape robot and they just have a million backup tapes

00:46:55   and like a million tape robots that are going through

00:46:57   fetching them or who knows what they were.

00:47:00   - It's like, what was it, was it a racer

00:47:02   with Vanessa Williams and Arnold Schwarzenegger

00:47:04   where there was like a climactic scene

00:47:05   where they were getting like mini-discs or CDs or something?

00:47:08   I think they were like, what is it, the tray?

00:47:10   We were talking about this just a month or two ago,

00:47:12   the tray that you would put the CD in and the CD--

00:47:14   - The caddy?

00:47:15   - The caddy, that's what I was looking for, thank you.

00:47:17   And they would like spit out a caddy

00:47:19   and Vanessa Williams had to like,

00:47:20   I don't know, copy it or something like that.

00:47:21   It was a delightfully crappy movie.

00:47:23   I should watch that again.

00:47:24   - Caddies were awful but they looked really cool in movies.

00:47:27   - Yep, exactly.

00:47:28   Anyways, all this to say that Anonymous is written in

00:47:31   with regard to AWS S3 Glacier.

00:47:33   I worked for AWS.

00:47:34   Glacier has never been optical discs nor tapes.

00:47:37   It's always been hard drives.

00:47:39   The way they make storage cheaper

00:47:40   is they over-provision the storage racks

00:47:42   and only a fraction of the drives

00:47:44   are powered at any given time.

00:47:46   - Yeah, so what I assume this means is like,

00:47:48   'cause obviously power is a major cost for a data center.

00:47:52   It might even be the biggest cost for a data center

00:47:54   and so the idea is I guess they just have racks

00:47:57   that are just stuffed full of hard drives.

00:47:59   Most of them are just powered off

00:48:01   and they power on the ones that they need

00:48:03   upon request, I guess.

00:48:04   - And over-provision, I'm assuming,

00:48:06   means that they couldn't turn them all on at the same time

00:48:08   because they wouldn't be able to

00:48:09   get the heat out fast enough.

00:48:10   - Yeah, presumably they're limited

00:48:12   by either heat or power or both.

00:48:14   And so they, but they stuff them full

00:48:15   and they say, all right, at any given time

00:48:16   we can power on 40% of these or whatever

00:48:19   and they manage it that way.

00:48:20   - And I'll give my little A to B west pitch now.

00:48:22   If you're using S3 and you haven't looked at it

00:48:24   in a while, Marco, no, maybe it's not relevant for Marco,

00:48:27   but for people who are actually storing

00:48:29   huge amounts of data--

00:48:29   - Is it still super expensive?

00:48:31   Yes, it's not relevant to me then, okay.

00:48:33   - For people who are storing huge amounts of data,

00:48:36   there have been advancements in the,

00:48:39   financial advancements in S3,

00:48:41   the most recent of which is S3 Intelligent Tiering.

00:48:44   They had so many ways to like, oh, you can save money,

00:48:46   just take your least recently used files

00:48:47   and tier them down to a cheaper storage

00:48:49   and do this and do that.

00:48:50   And it's like, yeah, you could do that,

00:48:52   but am I gonna write some weird sophisticated algorithm

00:48:54   that figures out which files I should tier down

00:48:56   and which files I should tier up?

00:48:57   Because of course you get charged every time

00:48:58   you tier them and everything.

00:48:59   Like several years ago, AWS introduced

00:49:03   S3 Intelligent Tiering, which yes, they do charge you for,

00:49:07   but net net, the fact that AWS does it for you

00:49:10   is probably going to save you money, right?

00:49:12   So basically you just say, here, Esther, here's my file.

00:49:15   If I don't access it in a while,

00:49:17   just put it in cheaper and cheaper storage,

00:49:19   cheaper and cheaper and slower and slower storage, right?

00:49:21   And when I get it, pull it up to the faster storage,

00:49:23   like just, Esther, just do everything for me

00:49:25   and try to save me money.

00:49:26   Because I think as AWS learned over the years,

00:49:29   that if you give all these different tiers

00:49:31   and different price structures and everything,

00:49:33   and hope that people will write some sophisticated algorithm

00:49:36   that moves all their data

00:49:37   to the most economically advantageous tier, they won't.

00:49:41   It's too hard to do, right?

00:49:42   They just want you to do it for them.

00:49:44   And that exists.

00:49:45   It's called, I believe it's called Intelligent Tiering.

00:49:47   So look into that.

00:49:48   If you're paying a lot of money for your stuff

00:49:49   that started in S3, I believe Intelligent Tiering

00:49:51   might even go all the way down to Glacier, but I'm not sure.

00:49:53   But anyway, if you haven't looked at their pricing stuff

00:49:55   in a while, there may be something out there

00:49:59   that will save you some money

00:50:00   with little to no work on your part.

00:50:01   - And then finally for tonight,

00:50:04   Photos Not Processing Faces or Pets.

00:50:08   So this was you, remind me, John,

00:50:10   you wanted it to process stuff, you wanted to sync now

00:50:12   or your process now button and you didn't have one, right?

00:50:14   Or something along those lines?

00:50:15   - Yep, Photos does a bunch of things in theory,

00:50:18   but it does them when it damn well feels like it

00:50:20   and you can't make it do it any faster.

00:50:22   - Nice.

00:50:23   So this is via Justin Mercer.

00:50:24   Justin writes, "It's not going to help John's situation,

00:50:27   "but this Stack Exchange on just unplugging

00:50:29   "an external monitor immediately fixed my own problem

00:50:31   "overnight after not making progress for three weeks

00:50:35   "on detecting faces in Photos.

00:50:37   "Coincidence or not, added to the Photos

00:50:38   "homoeopathic remedies."

00:50:40   And so the TLDR on the Stack Exchange

00:50:42   is that somebody did a lot of spelunking

00:50:44   and found, if I recall correctly,

00:50:46   that the GPU felt like it was thermal,

00:50:49   well, maybe not thermal throttling,

00:50:50   but it was not in a position thermally

00:50:53   to do a lot of this AI, ML sort of detection and whatnot.

00:50:58   And once the person Stack Exchange

00:51:01   unplugged their external monitor,

00:51:02   thus putting less of a burden on the GPU,

00:51:05   suddenly everything started churning

00:51:06   and churning almost immediately.

00:51:08   - That's the problem with all these background things

00:51:10   that I talked about, like Apple's trying so hard

00:51:12   to be nice to your system, so much so

00:51:14   that they refuse to run if they're afraid

00:51:16   this will use too many resources.

00:51:18   And what I'm always looking for is the button that says,

00:51:19   "Just use all the resources now."

00:51:22   Like, and then I'll push the button when I want you to stop.

00:51:25   Like, I'm telling you now, it's okay.

00:51:27   You don't have to only run on the E-Core.

00:51:29   You don't have to only run not on the discrete GPU.

00:51:32   Like, do not, like, you know, because by default,

00:51:35   the services are, this is, I have something

00:51:36   this is back in the Intel days when you had

00:51:37   the integrated GPU and the discrete one or whatever.

00:51:40   Just like, don't worry about it.

00:51:41   If you see a resource on the computer, just use it.

00:51:43   Use all the resources now, this is the thing

00:51:45   I want you to do, and then have a button that say,

00:51:47   "Okay, I'm back on my computer,

00:51:48   "I want you to stop doing that."

00:51:49   And that doesn't exist yet, so hopefully

00:51:51   that'll be next year's big photos feature.

00:51:53   - All right, let's do some topics,

00:51:56   and it seems like it's all security all the way down.

00:52:01   And let's start with the very uncomfortable news

00:52:04   that governments are apparently spying

00:52:06   on Apple and Google users through push notifications,

00:52:09   which is super fun.

00:52:12   There was an article on Reuters,

00:52:14   unidentified governments are surveilling

00:52:16   smartphone users via their apps push notifications,

00:52:18   a US senator warned on Wednesday.

00:52:21   In a letter to the Department of Justice,

00:52:22   Senator Ron Wyden said foreign officials

00:52:25   were demanding the data from Google and Apple.

00:52:27   Although the details were sparse,

00:52:28   the letter lays out yet another path

00:52:30   by which governments can track smartphones.

00:52:32   Apple and Google's push notification services

00:52:34   give the two companies unique insight into the traffic

00:52:37   flowing from those apps to their users,

00:52:40   and in turn puts them in a unique position

00:52:42   to facilitate government surveillance

00:52:44   of how users are using particular apps, Wyden said.

00:52:47   He asked the Department of Justice to quote,

00:52:49   "repeal or modify any policies," quote,

00:52:51   "that hindered public discussions

00:52:52   "of push notification spying."

00:52:54   From his letter, the data these two companies receive

00:52:57   includes metadata detailing which app

00:52:59   received a notification and when,

00:53:00   as well as the phone and associated Apple or Google account

00:53:03   to which that notification was intended to be delivered.

00:53:06   In certain instances, they might also receive

00:53:09   unencrypted content, which could range

00:53:11   from backend directives for the app

00:53:13   to the actual text displayed to a user in app notification.

00:53:16   In a statement, Apple said that Wyden's letter

00:53:19   gave them the opening they needed to share more details

00:53:21   with the public about how governments

00:53:22   monitor push notifications, so Apple said, quote,

00:53:25   "Now that this method has become public,

00:53:27   "we are updating our transparency reporting

00:53:28   "to detail these kinds of requests."

00:53:31   We have a little more here, but let me take a breath.

00:53:33   Gentlemen, anything you'd like to add?

00:53:35   - Yeah, so this situation and Apple's response to it,

00:53:38   this is just the fact of life in this country

00:53:40   and I assume in all countries.

00:53:42   Companies operate within governments.

00:53:46   Apple is a US company, they are subject to US laws.

00:53:50   And sometimes those laws say that Apple has to do things

00:53:54   for the government and that Apple

00:53:55   also can't tell anybody about them.

00:53:57   And I'm sure Apple doesn't like that,

00:54:01   but they are a US company and are subject to US laws.

00:54:03   So they do it.

00:54:05   And in this case, I'm assuming, of course,

00:54:07   Apple knows that they're being asked

00:54:09   for push notification stuff,

00:54:10   but they are apparently also constrained

00:54:12   from telling anybody that that's happening

00:54:14   for security reasons.

00:54:15   But now that it is public, now that the senator

00:54:17   has said this and it's public, apparently,

00:54:19   and I'm not a lawyer, but apparently Apple's lawyers

00:54:21   now believe that because it is public,

00:54:23   they can say, "Yes, this was totally happening to us.

00:54:25   "We couldn't say anything before,

00:54:26   "but now we can say something."

00:54:28   Which is crappy, but that's the way things work.

00:54:30   And this isn't more of a government issue

00:54:34   than a tech issue, but it's the intersection

00:54:37   of those two wonderful things.

00:54:39   Because in our country, in theory,

00:54:42   the laws that we subject the companies to

00:54:45   are the laws that we have chosen

00:54:47   by electing representatives who then make the laws

00:54:50   and so on and so forth.

00:54:51   That process, the distance from what the people want

00:54:54   to which laws companies like Apple are subject to,

00:54:57   often seems like a long distance.

00:54:59   It's like, what can I do as a voter to change this?

00:55:03   This issue is not going to be, quote unquote,

00:55:07   on the ballot anywhere.

00:55:08   It's not gonna be in campaign ads.

00:55:10   It's not gonna be front of mind for a lot of people.

00:55:11   People who don't listen to tech podcasts

00:55:12   probably don't know about it.

00:55:14   And yet, somehow, laws related to this

00:55:16   that basically say when and how the government

00:55:18   can demand something from a tech company

00:55:21   and when and how the government can force that company

00:55:23   not to say anything about it,

00:55:24   those laws are written and exist.

00:55:28   And if you don't like them and they sound like,

00:55:30   hey, I don't like that.

00:55:31   I don't want to live in a country

00:55:32   where my government can do that.

00:55:34   You might say, I want to change that.

00:55:36   Is there some way I can change that through voting?

00:55:39   And the answer is, in theory, yes.

00:55:41   In practice, probably there are more important things

00:55:45   like preserving democracy, stuff like that, you know,

00:55:49   that may, you know, like, when do we get down to the point

00:55:52   where you're voting based on nuances of policy

00:55:56   about security for tech companies?

00:55:57   We're probably not at that point, which is disappointing.

00:55:59   I personally find frustrating

00:56:01   'cause I do care about these issues,

00:56:02   but I care more about preserving democracy

00:56:04   and abortion, for example.

00:56:06   So you're really, it's like,

00:56:09   and our stupid two-party system is like,

00:56:11   look, you already know who you're voting for anyway.

00:56:13   There's not that much you can do about it,

00:56:15   except I suppose to become more informed

00:56:17   and pressure the representatives that are closest to you

00:56:20   so that hopefully, somehow,

00:56:22   this is like the reverse of trickle-down economics

00:56:23   and probably works about as well,

00:56:25   trickle-up concern where you voice your esoteric concerns

00:56:28   to the representatives who are closest to you

00:56:30   in the hopes that somehow, some way,

00:56:33   some message might filter upwards in the chain

00:56:35   to someone who has some power over this.

00:56:37   The good thing about stories like this,

00:56:39   and this wasn't Reuters and was picked up

00:56:40   and maybe not the mainstream press,

00:56:42   but like the mainstream-ish press,

00:56:44   is that this puts it into people's minds.

00:56:46   They say, hey, you may not know this,

00:56:48   but this is a thing that your government is able to do.

00:56:51   It's able to do this stuff,

00:56:52   and it's able to force the company not to tell you.

00:56:54   And we know Apple, in general,

00:56:56   doesn't like to be in that position,

00:56:58   has fought the US government before over issues like this,

00:57:01   of like, we want the texts of this person,

00:57:03   and Apple says we can't give them to you,

00:57:05   and the government wants them to put in back doors

00:57:07   and all this other stuff.

00:57:08   Like, to the degree that this enters the public mind

00:57:12   by being in the New York Times

00:57:13   or being in your local newspaper or whatever,

00:57:14   I think it's good, but I'm so pessimistic

00:57:20   about the ability to change any of this

00:57:25   just because of how distant I feel as a voter

00:57:27   and how distant I think we all are as citizens

00:57:30   of this country from what happens at the way

00:57:32   far other end of the government.

00:57:35   So like I said, this is not really an Apple story.

00:57:37   I think Apple is doing mostly the right things here

00:57:39   with one caveat that we'll get to in a second,

00:57:42   but hearing this story does not make me happy.

00:57:46   - Yeah, I mean, this,

00:57:48   I know our government has done stuff like this

00:57:50   for a pretty long time, decades,

00:57:53   and that's nothing new, but it doesn't make it any better.

00:57:57   I can't think of something that's less American,

00:58:00   at least less of the ideals of what American means,

00:58:05   than we're gonna have some kind of police action against you

00:58:10   and we're gonna prevent the company

00:58:13   that we are getting your data from

00:58:15   from even telling you that they gave us your data.

00:58:18   That is, I would love to hear,

00:58:23   some of the founders of the country

00:58:25   I think would have a pretty big problem with that.

00:58:27   I certainly do. - Well, I wouldn't go

00:58:28   that far, but the other thing is

00:58:30   that's why those canaries exist,

00:58:31   where they'll have a page that says,

00:58:33   we have not, this thing has not happened to us,

00:58:36   and what they do is they just remove that from the page

00:58:37   if it ever happens to them, so they can plausibly say,

00:58:40   we didn't tell anybody it happened,

00:58:41   we just removed something from our website, right?

00:58:44   And I don't know if this, the problem with the canaries

00:58:47   is you kind of have to anticipate the thing

00:58:49   that might happen, so you can put a statement,

00:58:51   you can put the negative version of the statement there

00:58:53   and then remove it, so I don't know

00:58:55   if that was an issue here, but anyway,

00:58:58   senators apparently can find out this information

00:59:00   and make it public, which then gives Apple cover

00:59:02   to say something without violating the law or whatever,

00:59:04   so maybe that's also part of the system working.

00:59:06   And by the way, if you're wondering how these laws happen,

00:59:08   this is kind of a terrible ratcheting mechanism

00:59:10   we have in this country, and others I'm sure,

00:59:13   which is based on fear, whenever there's a crisis

00:59:15   and people are afraid, that's the perfect time

00:59:17   to pass a bunch of laws that give expansive power

00:59:18   to the government to invade people's privacy

00:59:20   for quote unquote safety, and when the danger is gone,

00:59:23   those laws go away, of course not,

00:59:25   it only goes in one direction, any time there's a crisis,

00:59:28   pounce on it, make more laws, you know,

00:59:29   the Patriot Act, 9/11, whatever, you know,

00:59:32   people are afraid, pass more laws that gives the government

00:59:34   more power to invade people's privacy,

00:59:36   and we'll repeal that when the danger's gone,

00:59:38   they never will, it's like the tolls

00:59:40   that are there to pay for the bridge,

00:59:41   once the bridge is paid for, do the tolls go away?

00:59:43   No, they never go away, in fact, they just keep going up.

00:59:46   So that's another reason I'm pessimistic

00:59:49   about reversing this stuff, it's not that nothing

00:59:51   can be done, 'cause, you know, again,

00:59:53   these stories coming out helps it get into the front

00:59:56   of mind, people do have hearings about it,

00:59:57   and some of our representatives do care about this

01:00:00   and try to do, try to make things better,

01:00:02   but boy, it's an uphill battle.

01:00:04   - Yeah, I think more interesting than this is like,

01:00:07   what data did Apple give law enforcement agencies,

01:00:12   or whatever this was, like, what information

01:00:13   does Apple have to give them?

01:00:15   So Apple runs the push notification service,

01:00:17   Apple has, you know, the metadata,

01:00:20   they cited metadata detailing, you know,

01:00:22   which apps sent and received the message,

01:00:24   and you know, and what, you know,

01:00:26   to what phones with what push notification tokens,

01:00:30   and so presumably, if, you know, suppose

01:00:34   some law enforcement thing is, you know, basically

01:00:37   wire tapping someone, you know, for whatever,

01:00:39   again, I'm not a lawyer, but so whatever,

01:00:41   whatever the modern day equivalent of that

01:00:42   would be called, basically, you know,

01:00:44   wire tapping's, you know, a phone.

01:00:46   They can go to Apple and say, hey,

01:00:47   any push notifications that go to this person,

01:00:50   we want a copy.

01:00:51   Presumably Apple has to say yes, as we said,

01:00:53   so that data, you know, the app sends data

01:00:56   through the push notification service to Apple,

01:00:59   Apple can then capture it on the way to the phone.

01:01:01   I can't think of any other way this could work.

01:01:04   You know, I would assume that they couldn't just, like,

01:01:08   use basically an SSL proxy on somebody's connection,

01:01:12   'cause I would assume the push notification service

01:01:13   would not deliver those then.

01:01:15   I assume it does some kind of--

01:01:17   - Yeah, it's just metadata, like,

01:01:18   that's why I quoted the part of the thing

01:01:20   where they said it might be unencrypted data,

01:01:21   'cause I can imagine, 'cause this is both Apple

01:01:22   and Google, by the way, it's not just Apple.

01:01:24   I can imagine there are some situations

01:01:26   where there might be some unencrypted payload

01:01:28   that is not related to the push notification,

01:01:30   but maybe, especially on Google platforms,

01:01:32   maybe there was a time where there was unencrypted data,

01:01:34   but essentially it's just metadata.

01:01:35   It's kinda like the metadata that we talked about

01:01:37   with the government, you know, tapping phones,

01:01:39   and basically like, who's calling who and for how long?

01:01:41   They don't know anything that was said.

01:01:42   They can't see the contents of it, right?

01:01:44   But they just know this person called that person

01:01:45   for that amount of time, and that metadata

01:01:47   is incredibly valuable.

01:01:48   Even if you have no access to what was said,

01:01:50   merely just knowing this thing happened,

01:01:53   then this person got a message as push notification,

01:01:55   then this person got a message as push notification.

01:01:56   You can start connecting the dots and seeing how people,

01:01:59   you don't know what they're saying, right?

01:02:00   'Cause it's end-to-end encrypted and Apple can't tell you,

01:02:02   but just knowing how the dots are connected,

01:02:04   that metadata is so valuable and can reveal so much

01:02:07   without having to see any of the information.

01:02:09   And practically speaking,

01:02:10   Apple can't give you the information

01:02:11   because it's end-to-end encrypted.

01:02:13   So this is like the best you can get from Apple and Google

01:02:16   for essentially tapping communications

01:02:18   on these end-to-end encrypted networks.

01:02:19   At least we're not like the UK

01:02:20   where their government's trying to make it

01:02:21   so that end-to-end encryption is illegal,

01:02:23   you have to have backdoors and everything.

01:02:25   We kind of fought that battle in the '90s

01:02:27   with the chips and TVs or whatever,

01:02:29   and hopefully it won't come back up again.

01:02:30   So I suppose things could be worse.

01:02:32   - Yeah, but also, so from Senator Wyden's letter,

01:02:34   it says, "In certain instances, the data that's captured

01:02:38   "might also have unencrypted content of the messages."

01:02:42   For anybody who doesn't know the way this works,

01:02:44   for Overcast to send a notification to my apps,

01:02:47   basically when you say yes,

01:02:48   allow this app to send me notifications,

01:02:50   the app gets a token, just a long string.

01:02:53   And then so on sync back to my servers, it reports,

01:02:55   hey, this user has this push notification token.

01:02:57   So anytime new episodes of shows,

01:02:59   this, this, and this are published,

01:03:00   send notifications to this token.

01:03:02   So if I send, new episode released,

01:03:05   here's the title, here's the description,

01:03:06   if I send that in a notification, Apple has access to that.

01:03:09   And so if Apple's being forcibly tapped here by a government,

01:03:12   the government would have that.

01:03:13   Now, a different way I could send it is,

01:03:15   what you send to Apple is an arbitrary JSON dictionary.

01:03:20   You can put whatever you want in there.

01:03:21   Now, by default, if you put things like title, message,

01:03:25   it'll display those exactly as you'd expect

01:03:27   in like the kind of basic default way.

01:03:29   But you don't have to do that.

01:03:31   You can send it in whatever format you want,

01:03:33   and then your app can have a custom extension running

01:03:37   that's a notification content modifying extension.

01:03:40   When your app receives that notification from Apple,

01:03:43   it'll receive that JSON dictionary,

01:03:45   and before the phone displays the notification to the user,

01:03:50   you're allowed to run on the local phone app,

01:03:52   you're allowed to run this extension for a short time

01:03:55   to modify or add to the content of the notification

01:03:59   between the notification services payload

01:04:02   that you sent from your servers through Apple

01:04:03   with the JSON dictionary and being shown to the user.

01:04:06   So what I assume, I actually don't know this,

01:04:08   but what I assume is that the security conscious chat apps

01:04:13   most likely encrypt the data they send to Apple servers,

01:04:17   and then they have their notification content

01:04:19   modifying extension decrypt stuff on the app side.

01:04:23   This kind of tapping wouldn't work.

01:04:24   That's what I assume is happening

01:04:27   when the Senator's letter says in certain instances

01:04:31   they might be able to receive unencrypted content.

01:04:33   I'm guessing most of these apps probably do that,

01:04:36   and that's why it isn't always unencrypted content.

01:04:39   And it's certainly interesting to think like,

01:04:41   how could Apple, 'cause you know,

01:04:44   Apple does not like when governments

01:04:46   force them to hand over data.

01:04:48   They really don't like that.

01:04:49   They have and they continue to change the security

01:04:53   and design of their services to minimize the amount of data

01:04:57   they have in the first place for governments

01:04:59   to even come looking for.

01:05:00   So it wouldn't surprise me if maybe at some point

01:05:03   Apple changes the push notification service

01:05:06   and the way it works to have much more encryption built in

01:05:10   so that Apple has less ability

01:05:12   to even tap this data in the first place.

01:05:15   - Yep, agreed.

01:05:16   So Apple has since updated their law enforcement guidelines

01:05:19   to require a judge's approval before handing over

01:05:23   these records.

01:05:24   Gruber had called them out amongst others,

01:05:26   but had called them out saying it's kind of BS

01:05:28   that Google apparently required a judge's order,

01:05:32   whereas Apple just took it on scout's honor at the time

01:05:36   that you were really a police officer

01:05:37   and you were on the up and up.

01:05:39   And so they've changed it.

01:05:41   And previously Apple required only a subpoena

01:05:43   to turn over push notification records,

01:05:45   whereas Google required a subpoena subject

01:05:46   to court oversight.

01:05:48   Apple has now updated its guidelines

01:05:49   and now requires a search warrant.

01:05:51   And it reads, "The Apple ID associated

01:05:52   with the registered APNS token,"

01:05:54   that's Apple push notification service,

01:05:56   "and associated records may be obtained

01:05:57   with an order under some government code

01:06:01   or a search warrant."

01:06:02   So there you go.

01:06:04   And we will put relevant links in the show notes.

01:06:07   - Yeah, it's kind of weird that Apple is so against this,

01:06:09   but then they were slightly more lax than Google.

01:06:11   Maybe they didn't know they could get away with

01:06:12   requiring what Google required,

01:06:14   because you would think like, it's not kind of,

01:06:16   again, it's not really up to the company

01:06:17   to decide what they do and don't comply with,

01:06:19   but maybe Apple wasn't aware until all this came out

01:06:21   that they could have been more restrictive than they were.

01:06:24   So now they are more restrictive.

01:06:26   - Indeed.

01:06:28   So yeah, this is gross.

01:06:30   I mean, it's not surprising, but it's gross.

01:06:33   And I'm glad that Apple has swiftly taken action

01:06:37   to be more transparent about this.

01:06:40   Well, maybe not transparent, but more, I guess,

01:06:42   restrictive is a better word about this.

01:06:44   But either way, it's gross.

01:06:46   Governments, generally speaking,

01:06:48   I don't think they should be doing this, but here we are.

01:06:49   - It's not that they shouldn't be doing it.

01:06:51   It's just that the way we want it to work is

01:06:53   when it's super really important, yes,

01:06:55   but when it's not super really important, no.

01:06:57   And the way it actually works is

01:06:58   as soon as they're able to do it,

01:06:59   they do it all the time as much as they can.

01:07:01   It doesn't matter how important it is.

01:07:02   - Yep. - Right?

01:07:03   So that's what we're complaining about.

01:07:05   Not that we think, oh, government should never,

01:07:06   because this is the role of government.

01:07:07   They should be allowed to force companies to do things

01:07:10   for security reasons in extreme circumstances.

01:07:13   That's part of the function of government

01:07:15   that I think we all agree on.

01:07:16   The problem is when there's no transparency

01:07:18   and no oversight, what we know happens is

01:07:21   the government just does it whenever they feel like it.

01:07:23   And it's real easy to do that

01:07:24   when nobody can tell you they're doing it.

01:07:26   So they're doing it, and they're like,

01:07:28   no one's gonna know that we're doing this anyway.

01:07:29   I just wanna know what my neighbor had for lunch yesterday,

01:07:32   so I'm gonna check his text messages, right?

01:07:34   And the company can't tell anybody I'm doing it

01:07:36   because that's against the law, you know what I mean?

01:07:38   Like, that's not that that's people doing that,

01:07:40   but for sure people are using it

01:07:42   to like spy on their significant others

01:07:44   and other bogus stuff.

01:07:45   Like, just look at all the history

01:07:46   of all surveillance laws and tech.

01:07:49   It is just so massively abused,

01:07:50   and a complete lack of transparency and oversight

01:07:52   just makes that worse.

01:07:54   And the normal, you know, it can be secret oversight,

01:07:56   as in your representatives in Congress or whatever

01:08:00   have committees that oversee this,

01:08:02   but someone needs to be aware of it.

01:08:04   Someone who's accountable to the people

01:08:05   needs to be aware this is happening,

01:08:06   and ideally it would only happen in extreme circumstances

01:08:09   and not just all the time whenever people feel like it.

01:08:12   And I think all of our collective faith

01:08:14   and the government's ability to do that is very low

01:08:17   because we just assume, based on past events,

01:08:20   that they'll just do it whenever they feel like it

01:08:22   and not tell us about it.

01:08:23   - Yeah, 'cause that's what actually happens.

01:08:24   Like, it's not like we're just like, you know,

01:08:26   being conspiracy theorists here.

01:08:27   Like, no, we have decades of history showing us

01:08:29   that's exactly what happens.

01:08:30   It's this is not a theoretical, this is just what happens.

01:08:33   - Fun.

01:08:34   Now, speaking more about things that you can do yourself

01:08:38   to protect yourself, in the new iOS Beta for 17.3,

01:08:43   there is a new feature called Stolen Device Protection.

01:08:46   So let's set the stage.

01:08:48   I think it was in the spring or thereabouts.

01:08:51   It was Nicole Wen and Joanna Stern, I believe,

01:08:54   wrote a couple of articles that were really, really good

01:08:56   about how apparently it has become a thing

01:09:00   for thieves to look over your shoulder

01:09:02   or put you in a position so that it is easy for them

01:09:05   to look over your shoulder as you type your iPhone passcode.

01:09:09   They will then swipe your phone, they will run away with it,

01:09:11   and because they have your iPhone passcode,

01:09:13   they basically have the keys to your entire Apple kingdom.

01:09:15   They can change the passcode on your phone,

01:09:17   they can disable remote wipe, but more importantly,

01:09:21   they can go in and change the password on your Apple ID.

01:09:24   So this is not your phone's passcode,

01:09:26   but your Apple ID password.

01:09:27   And then you're screwed.

01:09:28   - Yeah, then they own everything, all your photos,

01:09:31   all your data, all your movies, all your everything.

01:09:33   And in this situation, Apple can't help you

01:09:35   because they don't have any way

01:09:36   to get that account back from you.

01:09:38   They don't have any proof that you are who you are.

01:09:39   You're just SOL, it's just a bad situation.

01:09:42   And I have to say, by the way, that article about,

01:09:44   you know, thieves are watching over your shoulder in bars

01:09:46   and stealing your phone is totally one of those scare stories

01:09:49   that makes people like, you know,

01:09:50   "Oh, I'm afraid now I'm gonna read this thing."

01:09:52   Like, who even knows how frequently that was happening?

01:09:55   But in this case, it doesn't matter

01:09:57   because the story does conclusively show this is possible.

01:10:01   This is A, has happened,

01:10:02   'cause here are some people it happened to,

01:10:04   and B, it is possible.

01:10:05   So even if it only very, very rarely happens,

01:10:08   it's the type of thing that's like, well, if it's possible,

01:10:10   can we do something about it?

01:10:11   That doesn't seem ideal.

01:10:13   I don't entirely believe that there's an epidemic

01:10:15   of this going on, and suddenly I'm afraid

01:10:16   that everyone's gonna swipe my phone or whatever,

01:10:18   but knowing that it's possible makes me think

01:10:21   there's something that could be improved

01:10:23   about the phone that I'm using,

01:10:24   because it seems like that shouldn't be possible,

01:10:26   and clearly it is.

01:10:27   So that's something that needs to be fixed,

01:10:29   regardless of how often it actually happens.

01:10:32   - Yep, couldn't agree more.

01:10:33   So Apple has come out with, in 17.3,

01:10:37   this new feature called Stolen Device Protection.

01:10:39   If you enable the new Stolen Device Protection,

01:10:41   your iPhone will restrict certain settings

01:10:43   when you are away from a location familiar to the iPhone,

01:10:46   such as your home or your work.

01:10:47   Here's the rundown, writes, I believe this one, Gruber.

01:10:50   An Apple ID password change.

01:10:51   If you do nothing, so if you don't enable this new feature,

01:10:56   a thief can use the passcode

01:10:57   to change your Apple account password and lock you out.

01:10:59   This move is the key to thieves turning off Find My

01:11:02   and wiping phones for resale.

01:11:03   Since you, the iPhone's owner,

01:11:05   don't have the changed Apple ID password,

01:11:06   you can't immediately locate your phone

01:11:08   or remotely wipe its data.

01:11:10   With this new feature, again, only in beta right now,

01:11:12   with stolen--

01:11:13   - And by the way, I wanna emphasize this,

01:11:14   that yeah, you can't remotely,

01:11:15   you can't look at your phone or wipe your data.

01:11:17   Also, you will never have access

01:11:19   to any of your stuff ever again, right?

01:11:21   Like your photos, your purchases, all that,

01:11:24   it's potentially gone.

01:11:25   Because the thief doesn't care about that.

01:11:26   They're not stealing your photos,

01:11:27   although maybe they'll wander through it

01:11:29   looking for nudes or whatever.

01:11:31   But they do wanna sell your phone,

01:11:32   and they don't care that they just locked you

01:11:34   out of your stuff, because they changed all your stuff

01:11:36   on your Apple ID.

01:11:37   You don't have the new information, you never will,

01:11:38   they're not gonna send it to you.

01:11:40   That's why it's a bummer.

01:11:41   - And also, I mean, they could,

01:11:42   like depending on what else they can access,

01:11:45   once they have access to everything else on your phone--

01:11:48   - Like all your bank account passwords.

01:11:49   - Yeah, they can possibly go into something like PayPal

01:11:52   or something, or your bank, and they can take your money.

01:11:54   And there are documented cases of that happening

01:11:58   exactly by this method.

01:11:59   If somebody has your phone and your Apple ID

01:12:04   and your passcode to your phone, they can do a lot.

01:12:08   And that was the real, I think,

01:12:11   the really eye-opening part of this story

01:12:13   when it broke last year, or earlier this year,

01:12:16   the really eye-opening part of that was,

01:12:18   I didn't, like, most people, I think most nerds especially,

01:12:22   we didn't know that with a phone and a passcode

01:12:25   you could reset the Apple ID password.

01:12:27   And so we didn't realize, like, wow,

01:12:30   the passcode to your phone is way more of an attack vector

01:12:34   than we would have potentially thought of before.

01:12:37   That was the real shock here.

01:12:39   - Because most people use a passcode

01:12:40   that's just a bunch of numbers.

01:12:41   They don't use the longer alphanumeric one

01:12:43   because it's just too annoying to use.

01:12:45   So that's why it's easy to shoulder surf

01:12:47   because you can see the giant buttons they're hitting,

01:12:48   and people don't think about it.

01:12:49   People are like, oh, my Apple ID,

01:12:50   that's a big, complicated password,

01:12:52   and I've got two-factor on, and I've got this,

01:12:54   and I've got that, but like, so we talked about this

01:12:56   when we originally talked about the story.

01:12:58   For a bunch of historical reasons

01:12:59   and in modern days customer support reasons,

01:13:02   that stupid numeric passcode, which might be, you know,

01:13:05   I think, do they still allow you to forge it at once?

01:13:07   I hope they don't, but anyway,

01:13:09   a small number of digits on a gigantic keypad

01:13:11   that's easy to see, that alone,

01:13:14   plus possession of your phone,

01:13:15   is enough for them to just break everything,

01:13:17   and that is not great.

01:13:19   - Yeah, I don't think most people realize,

01:13:21   like, the way most people kind of, you know,

01:13:24   cavalierly both handle their phone

01:13:27   or set it down on tables in public,

01:13:30   or, you know, type in the passcode over and over again

01:13:32   when Face ID fails, like, the way people treat their phones

01:13:37   and entering their passcode, the level of casualness

01:13:40   that people treat their phones and passcodes

01:13:42   means that having a phone and having a passcode

01:13:46   should not be as powerful as it is,

01:13:48   and that's the great thing that Apple is addressing that,

01:13:52   and, you know, this is a very, very, very early version of it

01:13:55   it literally just came out today, I think, or yesterday,

01:13:58   like, so, it's very new, and it's beta,

01:14:01   it's right just now in this very first beta for 17.3,

01:14:05   so we'll talk about it in a sec,

01:14:06   but, you know, we're gonna see how this goes,

01:14:08   but this is very, very new kind of first draft attempt

01:14:12   at making some changes here,

01:14:14   so I think some changes here are badly needed,

01:14:17   so this is a very welcome thing to see,

01:14:19   and we can nitpick the details here and there,

01:14:21   but overall, I'm super glad they are actually addressing this

01:14:24   - Yep, so we never explain the difference,

01:14:27   so if you do have this feature on,

01:14:29   if you wanna change an Apple ID password

01:14:31   when away from a familiar location,

01:14:33   the device will require your Face ID or Touch ID,

01:14:36   so the idea is it requires the user that's using the phone

01:14:40   to prove they are the owner of the phone.

01:14:43   It will then implement an hour-long delay

01:14:45   before you can perform the action.

01:14:48   After that hour has passed, you'll have to reconfirm

01:14:51   with another Face ID or Touch ID scan.

01:14:53   Only then can the password be changed,

01:14:54   so I think the theory here is A, you're proving it's you,

01:14:58   B, you're doing it twice, and C, you're delaying this,

01:15:02   so if somehow you got through the first touch point

01:15:04   where, you know, you've proven that you wanna do this,

01:15:07   the thief would still have to wait an hour,

01:15:09   and hopefully in that hour,

01:15:11   particularly when it comes to a phone,

01:15:12   you have realized that your phone is gone,

01:15:14   and you've borrowed somebody else's phone

01:15:17   to either remote wipe the phone

01:15:18   or do whatever you need to do

01:15:20   in order to prevent them from stealing it.

01:15:22   - You put it in lost mode,

01:15:23   like there are lots of things you can do pretty quickly

01:15:25   just from any web browser.

01:15:26   You can go to iCloud.com, log in with your password,

01:15:28   just remember, they couldn't change

01:15:29   'cause they're on the hour delay, right?

01:15:31   So they've still got your phone

01:15:32   and they're still probably gonna resell it or whatever,

01:15:34   but you can just get to a web browser within an hour,

01:15:37   or I guess call like 1-800 SOS Apple

01:15:40   or whatever the hell the number is now,

01:15:41   and just say, look, you don't need the phone to do it,

01:15:45   you don't need another Apple device that's logged in,

01:15:47   you just need a web browser

01:15:48   and the ability to go iCloud.com,

01:15:50   and hopefully you know your Apple ID, password,

01:15:51   or have a backup code written down somewhere.

01:15:53   So we were debating in Slack whether we think an hour

01:15:55   is the right amount of time for that,

01:15:57   because remember, if you have this turned on,

01:15:59   what this also means is that when you legitimately

01:16:01   wanna change your Apple ID password,

01:16:03   you also have to wait an hour.

01:16:04   So is one hour the right amount?

01:16:06   Is it, should it be four hours?

01:16:08   Should it be 24 hours?

01:16:09   You're, again, security versus convenience.

01:16:11   If you want more security,

01:16:13   it's gonna be way more inconvenient at that time

01:16:14   you do wanna change your Apple ID password,

01:16:16   and there are probably some edge cases

01:16:18   we're not thinking of where it's really, really important

01:16:20   for you to change your Apple ID password now, now, now,

01:16:22   but you have an hour delay.

01:16:24   So I think this is a good start,

01:16:26   because I mean, the obvious thing that we talked about

01:16:29   when we originally said this is like,

01:16:30   why don't they just make it so your passcode can't do that?

01:16:32   Why don't they just make it so the passcode

01:16:34   is insufficient to do that at all?

01:16:35   And all the answers we got from people in the know at Apple

01:16:38   is like, that's not really viable,

01:16:40   because people forget everything in their life,

01:16:43   essentially, except for their phone passcode.

01:16:46   And that's like the only lifeline to rescue their stuff,

01:16:49   and that happens, to my point before

01:16:51   about how often has it actually happened

01:16:53   that people are shoulder surfing your code.

01:16:54   The thing about people forgetting all their stuff

01:16:56   and being rescued by their passcode

01:16:58   that they only know 'cause they type in a million times,

01:17:01   that happens so much more.

01:17:04   Thieves shoulders are ring is incredibly common.

01:17:06   So that's why Apple didn't and essentially can't

01:17:09   do the thing where they just say,

01:17:10   yeah, your passcode won't be able

01:17:11   to be this powerful anymore,

01:17:13   because it would be a support burden nightmare.

01:17:16   Basically, if your goal is to reduce the number of people

01:17:18   who lose all their stuff, making that change

01:17:20   would increase the number of people who lose all their stuff.

01:17:22   They'd be losing it for a different reason

01:17:23   for quote unquote, their own fault, right?

01:17:26   Instead of thieves doing it, but you know,

01:17:28   what you're trying to do is make it so fewer people

01:17:31   lose all their stuff, not more.

01:17:32   So this is an attempt to say, okay,

01:17:34   we're gonna implement a system where we keep

01:17:36   all the benefits of being able to save people's bacon

01:17:38   if they just know their passcode,

01:17:40   while also preventing the thief scenario,

01:17:43   giving you that one hour gap to save yourself somehow.

01:17:48   - Yep, I mean, I dig this in principle.

01:17:50   It seems well thought out.

01:17:51   It seems to be not punitive if you're at a place

01:17:54   that your phone recognizes, you know, home or work.

01:17:56   Assuming that that actually does work,

01:17:58   I saw somewhere on Mastodon today

01:18:01   that somebody tried all this out and said it,

01:18:02   their phone, or maybe it was Gruber actually,

01:18:04   I think had said that his phone had been somewhere

01:18:07   for a long time, or it was like a test phone,

01:18:10   and it didn't, it still, or I forget, something was not--

01:18:13   - Yeah, it was Gruber who did it.

01:18:14   He did it in his house.

01:18:15   Like that's part, the location thing is trying

01:18:16   to balance the convenience of saying like,

01:18:18   ah, if you're in your house,

01:18:19   you can change your Apple ID password,

01:18:20   but like home and work, that's tricky

01:18:22   because if you work in a big office building

01:18:24   and someone shoulder-surfs your phone

01:18:25   at like the little cafe in the lobby

01:18:28   and goes into the lobby bathroom,

01:18:30   they're still at your work.

01:18:32   And so now they don't have the hour delay.

01:18:33   So that's the tricky bit about like,

01:18:35   are we gonna have to pick the locations

01:18:37   that we consider safe, you know what I mean?

01:18:38   Probably someone's not gonna shoulder-surf your passcode

01:18:40   inside your house and then go into another room

01:18:42   and change your Apple ID password,

01:18:44   but at your quote-unquote work, that could totally happen.

01:18:46   So I hope there's some flexibility there.

01:18:48   - Yeah, I don't love that little exception.

01:18:51   I would rather, I'd rather see that

01:18:53   either removed or controllable.

01:18:57   - Yeah, and again, home, I feel like that's semi-reasonable,

01:19:00   although if you're not home and the thief steals your phone,

01:19:02   which you're out with out, I guess,

01:19:04   and then just goes into your yard and changes it,

01:19:06   it's just, security versus convenience.

01:19:08   There's no easy answers here.

01:19:10   What you rapidly find out if you're ever involved

01:19:12   in any way in implementing one of these things,

01:19:14   because it's so easy when it's happening to you,

01:19:16   it's saying, this should be more secure

01:19:17   and it should be like X and be like Y,

01:19:19   but for the whole rest of your life,

01:19:21   this should be easier, I shouldn't have to wait an hour.

01:19:23   Right?

01:19:24   Yeah, everyone wants everything to be

01:19:27   just the way they want it when they need it,

01:19:28   but there are trade-offs, that's the practice of engineering.

01:19:32   - Indeed, so if you wanna turn this on on the beta,

01:19:33   settings, face ID and passcode, or touch ID and passcode,

01:19:36   stolen device protection in there.

01:19:38   - Are you two going to turn it on?

01:19:40   - Absolutely.

01:19:41   - I probably will, yeah, I don't see any reason not to.

01:19:44   - I'm definitely gonna turn it on,

01:19:45   if only to see how annoying it is, right?

01:19:47   Because I want the protection and I'm willing to tolerate

01:19:50   a reasonable amount of annoyance,

01:19:52   and so the only way to find out how annoying it is

01:19:54   is turn it on and try it.

01:19:56   - Not only am I turning it on,

01:19:57   although I think I'm gonna wait until maybe after the beta

01:20:00   to turn it on, I don't know if I wanna turn on

01:20:02   the beta one version of this

01:20:03   in case it hoses my account somehow,

01:20:05   but as soon as this is stable enough,

01:20:07   not only am I turning it on,

01:20:09   I'm gonna require it for all devices in my house.

01:20:11   We are brought to you this week by Squarespace,

01:20:15   the all-in-one website platform for entrepreneurs

01:20:17   to stand out and succeed online,

01:20:19   whether you're just starting out

01:20:20   or managing a growing brand.

01:20:22   Squarespace makes it easy to create a beautiful website,

01:20:24   engage with your audience, and sell anything,

01:20:26   your products, your content, even your time,

01:20:29   all in one place and all on your terms.

01:20:31   I love Squarespace.

01:20:32   First of all, they've been the best supporter

01:20:34   this show has ever had.

01:20:36   They've been with us as a sponsor

01:20:37   since the very beginning of the show,

01:20:39   even with Neutral before ATP.

01:20:41   They've been with us forever and we greatly appreciate that.

01:20:43   And Squarespace as a service and as a product is incredible.

01:20:47   I've used it myself, used to host our own site there.

01:20:49   My wife currently hosts her online storefront there,

01:20:52   and I also set up Squarespace sites

01:20:54   for lots of other people who need them.

01:20:55   They never have to come to me for tech support.

01:20:57   Even my wife, we're in the storefront.

01:20:59   They have a ton of store features,

01:21:01   all sorts of stuff that would be pretty complex

01:21:02   to do in other places or to make yourself,

01:21:05   and they just nail it.

01:21:06   It's so easy.

01:21:07   They have incredible features,

01:21:09   whether you sell physical goods, digital goods,

01:21:11   services, time slots, newsletters, paid podcasts.

01:21:16   They support all that stuff.

01:21:17   Memberships, anything that you might wanna sell,

01:21:22   Squarespace can probably help you sell it.

01:21:24   They have powerful analytics to back it all up

01:21:26   and help you optimize your content,

01:21:27   make sure your marketing channels are working.

01:21:29   They have all sorts of payment options for your customers

01:21:32   so you can optimize those conversion rates,

01:21:34   things like of course credit cards,

01:21:35   but also PayPal, Apple Pay, Afterpay, Clearpay,

01:21:38   everything you might want to optimize those checkouts,

01:21:41   they support it.

01:21:42   You gotta see for yourself what Squarespace can do.

01:21:44   It's really amazing.

01:21:45   Go to squarespace.com and start a free trial.

01:21:48   You can build the whole site in trial mode.

01:21:49   You can see how it works.

01:21:51   When you're ready to launch,

01:21:51   go to squarespace.com/ATP for 10% off your first purchase

01:21:55   for website or domain.

01:21:57   So once again, squarespace.com, start that free trial.

01:21:59   Go to squarespace.com/ATP at purchase to save 10%.

01:22:03   Thank you so much to Squarespace

01:22:05   for all of their support of our show over the years

01:22:07   and for of course having a really great service.

01:22:09   Thanks, Squarespace.

01:22:11   (upbeat music)

01:22:13   Let's do some Ask ATP.

01:22:15   Will Lineweber writes,

01:22:17   "Iphones have had OLED screens for a while now.

01:22:19   Does the prospect of OLED burn-in

01:22:21   make the always on display option a bad idea?

01:22:24   Likewise, what about the new iOS 17 standby mode?"

01:22:27   Will, I have now seen the FedEx logo

01:22:30   and now I am stressing about something

01:22:31   that I didn't think about until I read this.

01:22:33   So thank you, Will, for that.

01:22:35   To be honest, I've not worried about this.

01:22:38   I've had a couple of iPhones with OLED now

01:22:41   or a handful of iPhones with OLED.

01:22:43   I can't even keep track.

01:22:44   And I haven't noticed any burn-in

01:22:46   and I'm just gonna continue to try not to notice it.

01:22:48   So for me, I don't really care.

01:22:50   Let's start with Marco

01:22:51   and then we'll talk about Mr. Worried himself afterwards.

01:22:55   So Marco, what's your thoughts?

01:22:57   - We've had OLED screens and iPhones for a while,

01:23:00   as Will says.

01:23:01   The always on display we've also now had

01:23:03   for a couple of years,

01:23:04   I assume either the physical panels

01:23:07   or some of the software implementation details or both,

01:23:11   somehow Apple has mitigated the risk of burn-in enough.

01:23:15   Now, the always on phones,

01:23:17   no one's had them yet for four or five years, so we'll see.

01:23:21   But not only have I not seen any burn-in problems,

01:23:25   I haven't even heard of anyone having any burn-in problems.

01:23:28   - Yeah, well put.

01:23:29   - So it seems like if there are any,

01:23:31   they must be so rare that it's really not a problem.

01:23:36   So it seems, I was concerned about that as well,

01:23:39   like when they first announced the always on,

01:23:41   I thought surely that runs as risk.

01:23:43   Maybe the always on is such a small percentage

01:23:47   of the possible brightness of the screen,

01:23:49   maybe that helps a little bit.

01:23:51   But I don't know, but whatever it is,

01:23:53   it seems to not be a problem.

01:23:55   - So the screen tech in tiny OLED screens

01:23:59   is not quite the same as in like televisions,

01:24:01   although it is closer to monitor type things.

01:24:05   All OLED stuff does eventually burn-in and wear-out.

01:24:09   What's happening is the organic compounds are degrading

01:24:12   in the light-up thingies.

01:24:13   There's lots of stuff you can do in software

01:24:15   to compensate for that.

01:24:15   What you really wanna have is headroom,

01:24:17   such that if it degrades, the circuitry compensates for it

01:24:21   because you weren't driving it

01:24:22   at its maximum brightness anyway.

01:24:23   So if it degrades a little,

01:24:24   you just give it a little bit more extra juice

01:24:26   and it maintains its brightness.

01:24:27   And those are the mitigation factors that most OLEDs use.

01:24:31   The thing that phones have going for them

01:24:32   versus televisions are many.

01:24:34   So the first used to be before the always-on displays

01:24:37   is they're just not on all the time, right?

01:24:39   If you're not using them, phone screens go to sleep.

01:24:42   That changed with the always-on display.

01:24:43   But as Marco noted, Apple's implementation of always-on,

01:24:47   including on the watch, but also in standby mode,

01:24:49   has been, and the always-on display on phones and everything

01:24:52   has been fairly conservative with the, you know,

01:24:55   how bright the display is.

01:24:57   And that's related to the second thing, which is HDR.

01:25:00   Televisions, if you have them on all the time,

01:25:03   like people tend to keep them bright,

01:25:04   especially if it's in a bright room.

01:25:06   And if you happen to be watching HDR content,

01:25:08   it could be even brighter.

01:25:09   Our phones are HDR capable,

01:25:11   but most people do not leave their phone on a static screen

01:25:16   of an HDR, an HDR static screen for hours and hours at a time

01:25:19   with a static, you know,

01:25:20   CNN ticker at the bottom or whatever.

01:25:22   And that's pretty much what it takes

01:25:24   to burn one of these things in

01:25:25   in a one or two or three year period.

01:25:28   'Cause remember the phones,

01:25:28   because they don't have replaceable batteries,

01:25:31   end up getting chucked in three years anyway,

01:25:32   because the batteries are bad, right?

01:25:34   Or recycled or whatever, right?

01:25:36   So I think all of those things are protecting the screens.

01:25:39   Like burn-in happens based on time and brightness

01:25:43   and the staticness of the element

01:25:44   and how much headroom the screen has.

01:25:46   And our little screens are not on that long,

01:25:48   are not kept that bright,

01:25:50   and are fairly resilient against the burn-in

01:25:52   because these tiny little screens,

01:25:54   first of all, they don't even get as bright as televisions.

01:25:56   Televisions are going, I mean, even,

01:25:58   even MacBook Pro screens,

01:25:59   well, those aren't OLEDs or whatever,

01:26:00   but television screens are now breaking through

01:26:02   the 2000 nit barrier going up even higher than that.

01:26:05   With OLEDs, our phones are not there.

01:26:08   And it's like my Pro Display XDR.

01:26:11   All day it's sitting here,

01:26:12   not that it's an OLED or anything,

01:26:13   but all day it's sitting here showing me

01:26:14   quote unquote white windows,

01:26:16   but they are at most 500, 600 nits.

01:26:18   And unlike Margot, I don't have them at that brightness.

01:26:21   They're not at 1600 nits.

01:26:23   Like they're not HDR brightness.

01:26:25   And that's also true of our phone screens.

01:26:26   And that is really, really protecting them.

01:26:28   Right?

01:26:29   There are other manufacturing differences

01:26:33   between how, like how do the OLED screens

01:26:36   in our phones work and how do the OLED screens

01:26:39   in our televisions work?

01:26:40   They're not the same.

01:26:41   You know, depending on which OLED tech,

01:26:42   there are certainly not QD OLEDs.

01:26:43   And even the WRGB OLEDs from LG,

01:26:47   they use a white backlight with color filters

01:26:48   versus the AMOLEDs that are in our displays now

01:26:52   are actually also slightly different, right?

01:26:54   All that has conspired to make it

01:26:57   so that our phones do not suffer from burn-in

01:27:00   that we notice.

01:27:01   That is the key part, right?

01:27:03   It could be happening and it's being compensated for,

01:27:05   but the bottom line is,

01:27:05   do you see any part of your phone screen

01:27:07   where something is bothering you

01:27:08   in the normal lifetime phone?

01:27:10   So far the answer has been no.

01:27:12   And I think that will continue to be the case.

01:27:14   So I think it will be spared.

01:27:16   The rumor by the way for the OLED iPad is

01:27:18   that it's gonna be a double layer OLED from Samsung.

01:27:21   So it'll be two OLEDs that you're essentially run

01:27:24   at lower brightnesses stacked on top of each other.

01:27:27   So the total brightness is higher,

01:27:29   but each individual OLED is running at lower brightness.

01:27:31   So therefore you're preserving more of the part

01:27:34   that wears down through brightness.

01:27:36   That's the key.

01:27:37   Just don't show things very brightly.

01:27:39   Don't send a lot of electricity to those OLED pixels

01:27:42   and they'll wear out slower.

01:27:44   - All right, Julian Gamble writes,

01:27:46   Marco has talked about his quote,

01:27:47   "extreme minimalism" quote,

01:27:49   "approach to coding projects

01:27:50   and in particular adding libraries."

01:27:52   It has given us all great joy to see Marco embrace Swift

01:27:54   and Swift UI.

01:27:55   I do note that these have less of a minimalist approach

01:27:59   in coding culture when it comes to libraries.

01:28:02   Has Marco's conversion of Overcast to Swift

01:28:04   meant that he has moved away from his library minimalism?

01:28:07   What's going on there?

01:28:08   - Not only have I not moved away from using,

01:28:11   from my aversion to using third party code in libraries,

01:28:15   I'm actually going more in that direction.

01:28:16   And now Overcast already didn't have

01:28:19   much third party code in it.

01:28:20   I think at some point I had the one password SDK.

01:28:24   I use a little, it's literally like one file

01:28:29   called TP Circular Buffer,

01:28:30   which is an audio ring buffer library.

01:28:32   It's one C file with a handful of functions in it,

01:28:35   mostly macros.

01:28:37   And I use this Facebook KVO utility,

01:28:43   which I hated the fact that I had Facebook code in my app,

01:28:46   even though it also was like two files

01:28:48   and I could read it all and it was very minimal.

01:28:51   But the new version so far uses none of those things

01:28:56   except for TP Circular Buffer.

01:28:57   Like my audio ring buffer library, that's it.

01:29:01   That's the only thing.

01:29:03   So I don't even like Overcast originally use FMDB,

01:29:06   Gus Mueller's library for SQLite.

01:29:09   I don't use that in the new version either

01:29:11   'cause I wrote Blackbird and it talks directly to SQLite,

01:29:13   so I don't even need that.

01:29:15   I've gone more in the direction of my own code.

01:29:17   Now, I don't honestly see why Swift and SwiftUI

01:29:22   make it harder to do this or make it,

01:29:25   would push me more in the direction

01:29:28   of using third-party code.

01:29:29   - So let me jump in here.

01:29:30   - Yeah, why would I be doing this?

01:29:32   - All right, so I think Julian's point is that Swift,

01:29:37   less Swift but maybe more SwiftUI,

01:29:39   is a pretty big framework.

01:29:43   And I don't think that Julian is considering--

01:29:45   - Is it though, compared to what?

01:29:47   Compared to UIKit or AppKit?

01:29:49   No way. - No, no, so hold on.

01:29:50   Here's the thing.

01:29:51   I don't think Julian is making the distinction

01:29:52   between first and third party.

01:29:54   I think if you were to look at this

01:29:57   as both of them being equivalent, which I do not,

01:30:00   I'm just saying I think that's where Julian's coming from.

01:30:03   - My guess was it has to do with Swift package manager.

01:30:05   Like basically with Swift, unlike Objective-C,

01:30:07   Swift has an Apple-supported

01:30:10   actual package management system

01:30:13   and a culture of making packages and sharing them.

01:30:16   And Objective-C never had that.

01:30:17   Objective-C had CocoaPods and whatever that other one was,

01:30:19   and they were never really officially Apple-supported,

01:30:22   and it was just kind of janky.

01:30:23   But if you're doing anything in Swift,

01:30:24   it's becoming kind of like as good as Perl was

01:30:28   in the late '90s, where you can look up a package

01:30:32   that does what you want and grab it

01:30:33   and add it to your project pretty easily.

01:30:38   And that culture just didn't exist in the Objective-C days.

01:30:42   - Yeah, or it was much smaller.

01:30:43   So I am using Swift packages,

01:30:46   but they're all packages I wrote.

01:30:47   The current version of the rewrite has, I think,

01:30:51   four packages, but they're all just OC Audio, OC Utilities.

01:30:56   It's all of my Overcast utility classes and common classes,

01:31:00   and Blackbird.

01:31:03   - And that's, by the way, why every language should have

01:31:06   an officially supported package system.

01:31:08   Even if you never use anyone else's packages,

01:31:10   using it for your own stuff is just so much nicer

01:31:12   to have actual official support right there in Xcode

01:31:15   that's going to, and I know Swift package managers

01:31:17   had growing pains, and it's young,

01:31:18   but just the fact that we're on that road

01:31:22   and that Apple actually supports it,

01:31:23   and that there's one true thing

01:31:25   that the whole community get behind

01:31:26   just makes everything so much better,

01:31:27   even if you never use anyone else's code.

01:31:29   - Yeah, in the olden days, we had frameworks.

01:31:32   We had Objective-C frameworks that are fully supported

01:31:34   on iOS as of not too many versions in,

01:31:38   and I just never got into frameworks.

01:31:40   I tried, as a developer, I am not an advanced Xcode user.

01:31:45   I am not an advanced build system engineer.

01:31:50   Anything that requires weird build settings

01:31:52   and a lot of trickiness in Xcode.

01:31:57   - Or even running things from the command line,

01:31:59   doing builds from the command line,

01:32:00   which I know a lot of people are into.

01:32:01   - Yeah, any of that, that kind of stuff

01:32:04   becomes a huge block for me to do

01:32:07   anything that requires it, because I'm not good at it.

01:32:10   The documentation is minimal.

01:32:12   The usability of Xcode, doing advanced stuff like that

01:32:15   is usually pretty awful, because it's like,

01:32:16   everyone just kind of knows how to do it

01:32:18   from a million years ago, and they've never made it easy.

01:32:21   So anything that involves advanced build system tricks,

01:32:25   I usually can't and won't do,

01:32:29   because I, and if I try to do it, it costs me hours,

01:32:33   and I eventually come up with some brittle thing

01:32:35   that then breaks six months later

01:32:37   when I try to do something else.

01:32:38   So I try to avoid that kind of thing.

01:32:40   So Swift packages have been mostly great.

01:32:44   The downside is that Xcode is buggy as hell

01:32:47   when dealing with them, but the good news is that

01:32:50   when it works, if you're willing to clean your build folder

01:32:54   and clear all issues and maybe quit Xcode a lot

01:32:56   and be careful what you have open at the same time

01:32:59   across two different projects,

01:33:00   then if you baby it in those ways,

01:33:04   the system actually is conceptually pretty simple

01:33:07   and is certainly much easier to use.

01:33:09   - And it's getting better, and we know Apple is behind it,

01:33:11   so it's not just like, oh, well,

01:33:12   is this gonna be the one that wins it?

01:33:13   This is gonna be the one that wins.

01:33:14   Like, Apple is, you know, it's gotten better already.

01:33:17   It still needs to get better than it is now,

01:33:19   but I have full confidence that they will continue

01:33:23   to work on this, and the community seems to be behind it.

01:33:25   I can look for Swift packages and find them sometimes

01:33:28   for things I'm interested.

01:33:29   Again, even if I'm not gonna use them,

01:33:31   it just makes it easy to just make a new empty project,

01:33:33   pull the package in, and poke around in it.

01:33:35   - Yeah, and to be clear, the reason why I don't use

01:33:39   third-party code much, if at all,

01:33:42   is mostly because I've been burned by it in the past a lot,

01:33:46   and when I'm doing the calculus of,

01:33:50   like, is it worth it to write my own version of this,

01:33:55   I might have different requirements than you do.

01:33:57   You know, when I'm, like, Overcast,

01:33:59   the code base is now 10 years old,

01:34:02   and I am, like, I'm writing it now

01:34:05   for hopefully the next 10 years or beyond.

01:34:08   This is something, like, if you're just trying

01:34:12   to get something out there quickly,

01:34:13   and your concept of, am I still gonna be,

01:34:16   like, whatever thing I'm building right now,

01:34:19   am I gonna be the one responsible for it 10 years from now?

01:34:23   Like, if your answer to that is maybe not,

01:34:25   or definitely not, or ha ha, what are you talking about,

01:34:28   then you have different priorities than me.

01:34:29   Then if you need to build something faster,

01:34:33   if you're building something for, say, a company,

01:34:35   and it doesn't really matter whether you use

01:34:37   someone else's even or odd library or not,

01:34:40   go for it, get your job done faster.

01:34:42   You won't even be there in 10 years, who cares?

01:34:44   If you're building something for a hackathon,

01:34:46   if you're building something as a prototype,

01:34:48   if you're building something as, like,

01:34:49   a version one that you think might become a business,

01:34:52   but maybe not, or you're just doing it for fun on the side,

01:34:55   by all means, build it however you want, build it quickly.

01:34:58   - Or if you're building something that other people

01:34:59   might have to work on, using the library

01:35:01   that everybody uses for that thing means

01:35:03   that they can hire another person who has a chance

01:35:05   of understanding it without having to read

01:35:06   all of your code and figure it out.

01:35:07   Like, you know, that's the argument for third party,

01:35:10   you know, there are lots of positive arguments

01:35:12   for third party libraries, not just like it's always bad

01:35:14   and Marco can avoid that badness because he's lucky.

01:35:17   Sometimes there's goodness.

01:35:18   - Yes, exactly, but you know, my priorities are so different

01:35:23   and my needs are very different.

01:35:24   It isn't just me being a juric, I mean, it's partly that,

01:35:27   but I need to know that whatever I'm writing now

01:35:32   is gonna never give me trouble and never surprise me

01:35:36   with, say, discontinuation or never surprise me

01:35:40   with some detail on how it works that I wouldn't

01:35:43   have expected or might be hard to find.

01:35:46   I'm building stuff for the long term, you know, for myself.

01:35:49   And so I don't care who else works on it

01:35:51   because no one else is gonna ever work on this code

01:35:53   in all likelihood.

01:35:54   - Yeah, I was waiting for that, I was waiting for that.

01:35:57   - In a case where this might have backfired,

01:35:59   it's Parker Wright's own PHP framework

01:36:01   because he's the only person who's ever gonna work on this

01:36:03   so it doesn't matter that he used some third party

01:36:05   or thing that people might be familiar with

01:36:07   and there'll never be anyone parachuting into the code

01:36:09   who suddenly has to not only understand the product

01:36:11   but also the framework it's built on.

01:36:13   - What PHP framework would you have been familiar with?

01:36:16   - I mean, sure, granted, but still.

01:36:18   (laughing)

01:36:19   I could find documentation for, I don't even know

01:36:21   what the PHP frameworks are, I know when we talked

01:36:22   about this on the member special I wrote in

01:36:24   and said you should have used Blorp or Gloop,

01:36:26   but anyway, I'm sure there's documentation online

01:36:30   for those frameworks.

01:36:30   - I think it's all Laravel now, right?

01:36:33   I don't know, I've never used it.

01:36:34   - I think Laravel is the bespoke one, or not bespoke.

01:36:37   - No, it's far from bespoke, yeah, yeah.

01:36:39   I think it is so taken over PHP culture that like,

01:36:43   in the same way that if you're building a web app in Ruby,

01:36:48   you're probably building it in Rails

01:36:50   and Rails was so successful that it took over all of,

01:36:53   like whatever, if there was anything else going on.

01:36:55   - Not only did it take over, like there was one point

01:36:58   where like the new version of Rails was essentially

01:37:00   the big, they absorbed the Rails competitor

01:37:03   and say the new version of Rails is the thing

01:37:04   that used to be competing with Rails.

01:37:05   I'm getting the details wrong, but something like that

01:37:07   more or less happened.

01:37:08   - Right, yeah, and to that extent, I think Laravel

01:37:13   or Laravel, I've never used it, I think that has absorbed

01:37:15   so much of PHP that like, if you're using PHP,

01:37:19   it's kind of just assumed that you're using Laravel,

01:37:21   I think, for most people.

01:37:22   - Is that how you pronounce it?

01:37:23   I think Blorp or Gloop that I said

01:37:24   was probably just as good.

01:37:25   - I have no clue.

01:37:27   I've never heard it spoken about.

01:37:28   - Now we're gonna get feedback.

01:37:30   - All the Blorp users are gonna write in.

01:37:32   - Yeah, the four--

01:37:33   - Fight with the Gloop users.

01:37:34   - The four remaining Blorp users are gonna write in

01:37:36   and say, it's not pronounced that at all, but that's all right.

01:37:40   Anyway, all right, let's move on.

01:37:42   Torstein writes, "Two months in,

01:37:43   "how do you like the action button?

01:37:44   "Is it useful?

01:37:45   "Is it just meh, irritating, or gimmicky?

01:37:47   "Any accidental activations?

01:37:50   "Wishlist for future upgrades to it,

01:37:52   "or will it go the way of the touch bar

01:37:53   "and get less and less attention from Apple?"

01:37:55   For me, I like it.

01:37:56   I don't think it's been world-changing,

01:37:58   but it's nice to have something in a place

01:38:01   where I had effectively nothing.

01:38:03   And by that, I mean the most useful thing

01:38:06   that the Ring Silent Switch did for me

01:38:08   since the moment I got my Apple Watch

01:38:10   was being a good fidget toy,

01:38:12   which, well, really a terrible fidget toy, if I'm honest,

01:38:14   but I used it a lot as a fidget toy.

01:38:15   And so now I have something useful there.

01:38:18   For me, I'm using it for the camera.

01:38:20   I haven't come up with a better way,

01:38:22   or not a better, a more useful thing

01:38:25   that I think I would prefer.

01:38:27   And so I've stuck with the camera,

01:38:28   and I do like having it.

01:38:30   I like having the camera available to me

01:38:33   without thinking about it.

01:38:35   I am fully aware it's on the lock screen.

01:38:37   I am fully aware it's in Control Center,

01:38:39   but this is still faster, and I like having it there.

01:38:42   And honestly, I don't have any plan to change it.

01:38:45   I know that Federico, amongst others,

01:38:46   have been doing some really impressive and wild things

01:38:49   with the action button and shortcuts,

01:38:51   but that's filling a need I don't think I have.

01:38:53   So I like it.

01:38:54   I don't think it's do or die, so to speak,

01:38:56   but I definitely like it,

01:38:57   and I prefer it over the Ring Silent button.

01:38:59   John, I picked on Marco first the last couple times.

01:39:02   John, what do you think?

01:39:02   Well, you don't have one of these.

01:39:03   Never mind, back to Marco.

01:39:04   - I don't have one, but I do have something to add here.

01:39:08   It was the last part of the question, I was like,

01:39:09   did we think it would go to the touch bar

01:39:10   and get less and less attention?

01:39:12   The rumors for iPhone 16 is not only will they all

01:39:15   have the action button, not just the Pro ones,

01:39:16   but the whole 16 line will have the action button,

01:39:19   but there's, I mean, I know we're almost a year out,

01:39:22   but the other rumor is that they're gonna add another button

01:39:25   to the other side of the phone near the bottom,

01:39:28   like basically below the power button,

01:39:31   and I don't know, this is one of those rumors

01:39:33   where it's like, really?

01:39:34   Are you misunderstanding some kind of thing

01:39:36   in the supply chain or something?

01:39:37   But anyway, watch for that.

01:39:39   I'm all for adding more buttons.

01:39:40   Obviously, there's a limit.

01:39:41   You can't have buttons up and down the sides

01:39:44   and the tops and bottoms of the phone,

01:39:46   but I feel like we were in a button drought,

01:39:49   kind of like the port drought on the laptops for a long time

01:39:51   and the action button has sort of broken through.

01:39:53   I think Apple's committed to it.

01:39:55   I think you're gonna see it on phones going forward,

01:39:57   I think, especially the action button,

01:39:59   taking over that spot is an easy win

01:40:01   because you already had a control there,

01:40:03   so it's not like you're carving out a new spot for it,

01:40:05   and if it actually adds another button

01:40:07   to the other side somehow, we'll see.

01:40:09   Maybe it'll be a button bonanza.

01:40:10   - Wow.

01:40:13   Marco, what do you think?

01:40:14   - I love it.

01:40:15   It's not like a world-changing thing, but it's a nice thing.

01:40:18   So I have mine mapped to the flashlight,

01:40:22   which, again, like the camera,

01:40:24   it's usually on the lock screen, so I could just do that,

01:40:26   but I have a dog and it's winter,

01:40:29   and I often am taking him out for a second.

01:40:32   I don't wanna go get the big flashlight off the shelf

01:40:34   and bring it.

01:40:35   I wanna just like, oh, I'm outside?

01:40:37   Let me see this.

01:40:37   Or I'm reaching under a cabinet for something.

01:40:41   Oh, let me quickly pop this on.

01:40:44   It's very useful as a flashlight in my life,

01:40:46   and so I have it as that.

01:40:47   It's not super exciting.

01:40:49   It has been a nice minor improvement.

01:40:52   I've never had any accidental activations

01:40:55   to answer Torsion's question,

01:40:56   and whether they add more buttons in the future

01:40:59   or more sequences of presses that you could do

01:41:03   to have different actions on this, who knows?

01:41:06   But I look forward to these little minor things adding up.

01:41:09   The other thing is that I used to,

01:41:11   I'm not a monster, and so my phone does not ring

01:41:16   most of the time.

01:41:18   It vibrates or whatever else.

01:41:20   And I used to, every night before bed,

01:41:23   flip it to out loud mode again,

01:41:26   and then I'd wake up and get ready in the morning

01:41:28   and flip it back to silent mode,

01:41:30   and occasionally I would forget to do that.

01:41:34   And so occasionally my phone would

01:41:35   unexpectedly ring out loud,

01:41:38   and every time I'm like, ah!

01:41:40   It was so jarring when that would happen,

01:41:42   and man, if that would happen somewhere

01:41:45   like around other people, I would be mortified.

01:41:47   So by removing the ring silent switch,

01:41:51   it has removed the ability for me

01:41:53   to quickly and easily change that setting.

01:41:56   So the result is I don't change it anymore.

01:41:59   I just leave it on silent mode all the time.

01:42:01   - If you did wanna do it,

01:42:02   couldn't you schedule it with shortcuts?

01:42:04   - Probably. - I don't know.

01:42:06   - I don't know. - I think you can make

01:42:07   shortcuts fire based on time of day,

01:42:09   and then you could just, I think you can just,

01:42:11   anyway, I endorse not turning your ring around

01:42:14   when it's nighttime, especially if you have your phone

01:42:17   on vibrate, if it's on a hard surface,

01:42:18   it'll wake you up too just with the vibration.

01:42:20   - Yeah, and the thing is, the reason I would do it

01:42:23   was just an old habit of I wanna make sure

01:42:26   if I'm getting alerts that my servers are down or whatever,

01:42:29   I want those to make noise and wake me up,

01:42:31   or if someone in my family is calling me,

01:42:33   maybe somebody's having an emergency

01:42:35   I need to know about, whatever.

01:42:38   But now there's all these different settings

01:42:39   of things like do not disturb and all these different,

01:42:43   you can put different settings and different contacts

01:42:45   and filter modes, you can have things break through,

01:42:47   and so there's so many options now

01:42:50   to let important stuff break through the silent switch

01:42:54   that I'm fine, I just have it on all the time now,

01:42:56   it's great. - Plus, you're a parent,

01:42:58   so if you're anything like me, your ability to sleep

01:43:00   through any kind of noise has been destroyed

01:43:02   by having an infant, so again, if you just put it on vibrate

01:43:05   and put it on your nightstand, it will wake you up.

01:43:07   - Thanks to our sponsors this week, Squarespace and Notion.

01:43:12   And thanks to our members who support us directly,

01:43:14   you can join us at ATP.fm/join,

01:43:17   and we will talk to you next week.

01:43:20   (upbeat music)

01:43:22   ♪ Now the show is over ♪

01:43:25   ♪ They didn't even mean to begin ♪

01:43:27   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

01:43:29   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:43:30   ♪ Oh, it was accidental ♪

01:43:32   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:43:33   ♪ John didn't do any research ♪

01:43:35   ♪ Marco and Casey wouldn't let him ♪

01:43:38   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

01:43:39   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:43:41   ♪ It was accidental ♪

01:43:42   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:43:43   ♪ And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm ♪

01:43:48   ♪ And if you're into Twitter ♪

01:43:51   ♪ You can follow them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S ♪

01:43:56   ♪ So that's Casey, Liz, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M ♪

01:44:02   ♪ Auntie Marco, Armin, S-I-R-A-C ♪

01:44:07   ♪ USA, Syracuse ♪

01:44:09   ♪ It's accidental ♪

01:44:11   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:44:13   ♪ They didn't mean to ♪

01:44:15   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:44:16   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:44:17   ♪ Tech podcast ♪

01:44:19   ♪ So long ♪

01:44:22   - So you got a new toy apparently?

01:44:24   - I got a new desk toy.

01:44:28   And maybe away from my desk sometimes too.

01:44:32   I'm gonna send the picture to you, hold on.

01:44:33   I got myself something I had in college and high school.

01:44:37   - Oh my gosh.

01:44:38   - I got myself a Palm Pilot, specifically the Palm 5X,

01:44:43   which I think was the best Palm Pilot ever made.

01:44:47   Now I'm a little biased,

01:44:48   'cause it's the one I had in college.

01:44:50   In high school I had a Palm 3X for a couple years,

01:44:55   the end of high school.

01:44:56   And this, what I have learned is that Palm Pilots now

01:45:02   are available on eBay for basically nothing

01:45:06   in good working order.

01:45:08   So this cost $20.

01:45:11   - Oh my word.

01:45:12   - Came with the full box, docking cable, everything.

01:45:15   Charger, like everything.

01:45:16   - You could've just gone out to my attic,

01:45:17   'cause I've got one.

01:45:18   My suggestion is you get VEXed.

01:45:20   V-E-X-2-X is V-E-X-X-E-D.

01:45:23   Really fun game.

01:45:24   - Oh okay, I will lift it up.

01:45:25   Yeah, so in high school I never had a phone,

01:45:29   'cause this was like 1996 to 2000.

01:45:32   So it was too early for teenagers to have phones.

01:45:37   Some people had pagers or beepers in this time,

01:45:40   but I did not.

01:45:42   That was not gonna happen for me.

01:45:44   So at some point I got a job,

01:45:47   I was working at a natural food store,

01:45:49   just basically a grocery kinda thing.

01:45:51   And I got a job and eventually I had a few hundred dollars

01:45:54   built up and I wanted so badly I got myself a Palm 3X.

01:45:59   I was a junior in high school.

01:46:02   What did I need an organizer for?

01:46:04   What did I have to organize?

01:46:06   - You weren't doing any homework anyway.

01:46:07   - I wasn't doing any homework.

01:46:09   I didn't have calendar events to organize.

01:46:12   I didn't have a ton of phone numbers to keep track of.

01:46:15   I didn't have a massive to-do list.

01:46:17   - Did you want just a really expensive thing

01:46:19   that plays games worse than a Game Boy?

01:46:21   (laughing)

01:46:23   - Well honestly, frankly I might disagree

01:46:24   with that statement, 'cause the Game Boy was not,

01:46:27   I know people have a lot of nostalgia for the Game Boy.

01:46:29   The Game Boy was not a great system in my opinion.

01:46:32   But it was also--

01:46:33   - It had great games for it, that's the key.

01:46:35   - Yes, so I got this Palm Pilot in high school.

01:46:39   It might have been the first major electronic thing

01:46:41   that I paid for with my own money,

01:46:43   with the money from that job.

01:46:44   And I just loved it.

01:46:46   None of the teachers in school knew what the heck it was,

01:46:49   so I could just be tapping around on it, playing a game,

01:46:51   and they wouldn't know what I was doing.

01:46:53   They would think I was organizing my life or whatever,

01:46:55   or they might think it was just a weird calculator.

01:46:58   Who knows?

01:46:58   So I was playing with it all day in school.

01:47:01   I love Palm OS.

01:47:04   A few months back, it floated through our RSS news circles

01:47:09   that people had made this awesome web emulator for it,

01:47:12   and you could just play all these

01:47:13   old Palm games in your browser.

01:47:15   And so of course I opened it up,

01:47:17   and I found the meal-born game I always played

01:47:20   called Rally 1000, an implementation of the popular

01:47:24   French card game, Meal-Born, also called 1000 Miles.

01:47:27   Anyway, booted that up, and that's the game

01:47:29   that was one of my big time waster games

01:47:31   throughout all of high school and college.

01:47:33   And I loved playing it again.

01:47:35   Like it brought back those memories,

01:47:37   and I haven't owned a Palm Pilot since probably 2004, 2005.

01:47:42   - Like an old person calling them all Palm Pilots.

01:47:44   I don't think they dropped the Pilot name

01:47:46   by the time this product came out, right?

01:47:48   - Oh yeah, yeah.

01:47:49   Like it was, I think even my Palm 3X,

01:47:52   I believe that was after it was bought by 3Com.

01:47:54   I think it had the 3Com logo on it.

01:47:56   I no longer have it, so I can't verify.

01:47:58   But anyway, the Palm OS was really delightful.

01:48:01   I think it was extremely well designed.

01:48:04   And keep in mind, the era these are from,

01:48:07   these are from the late 90s, I looked up the specs.

01:48:10   It had like a 20 megahertz processor,

01:48:14   something like four to eight megabytes of RAM,

01:48:17   depending on which one you got.

01:48:18   The screen was 160, we had 160 monochrome or grayscale.

01:48:22   Like it was very, very basic from a computing standpoint.

01:48:26   But they did some really clever things,

01:48:28   and for instance, the handwriting recognition system,

01:48:31   graffiti, first of all, I thought that was the coolest thing

01:48:34   in the world, like I would write graffiti on notebook paper

01:48:36   just 'cause I thought it looked cool.

01:48:38   - Oh my gosh, that is a whole new level of nerdy.

01:48:40   - Oh, of course, yeah.

01:48:41   At the time, to have reliable handwriting recognition,

01:48:45   asterisk, like you had to write this certain way,

01:48:49   but if you wrote that certain way,

01:48:51   it was very fast and reliable.

01:48:53   And so when you compare it to the Newton,

01:48:54   which I never own, but I use them once or twice,

01:48:57   and the Newton tried to have freeform

01:49:00   handwriting recognition, and it didn't work that well

01:49:02   'cause the computing power just wasn't really there yet.

01:49:05   - The thing about the Newton, though,

01:49:06   like yes, it didn't work as well, but here's the thing,

01:49:08   especially the original version of the Newton,

01:49:10   you could write cursive.

01:49:12   And the first time I wrote cursive on a Newton

01:49:14   and it changed it into print, I was like,

01:49:15   this is the future, this is the most amazing device ever.

01:49:17   And then I wrote another sentence

01:49:18   and it totally mangled it.

01:49:19   But like the fact that it could ever do it even once

01:49:22   with like my cursive, which is not particularly good,

01:49:25   I'm like, how is it doing it, what is this witchcraft?

01:49:28   I think that later versions of Newton OS,

01:49:29   they dropped the ability to support cursive,

01:49:31   but I was amazed by it with the original Newton.

01:49:34   Of course, the original Newton was humongous

01:49:36   and massively more expensive than this,

01:49:38   and that's why Palm did so much better

01:49:40   than the Newton in the market.

01:49:41   - That's the thing, like these were,

01:49:43   like when I bought the 3X, it was something like $300,

01:49:47   and then when I later bought the discounted 5X,

01:49:49   it was something like $200.

01:49:50   That was, for the time, relatively inexpensive

01:49:54   compared to like a computer or a Newton,

01:49:57   like Newtons were much more than that, I believe.

01:49:59   And they were also much larger.

01:50:00   - Yeah, they were more expensive, they were bigger.

01:50:02   They were also substantially more powerful, but.

01:50:04   - Yes, but what was genius about the Palm,

01:50:08   whatever Palm pilots, whatever you're calling these,

01:50:10   what was genius about them is that instead of like,

01:50:13   the Newton was like, let's do,

01:50:16   let's tackle a really hard problem in a really big way.

01:50:19   Palm was more like, hey, you know what, let's scale it back.

01:50:23   Let's simplify what we're asking the hardware to do

01:50:27   so it can be a lot more accessible

01:50:29   and a lot smaller and cheaper.

01:50:30   - It was a lot like the Game Boy in that way,

01:50:32   and like saying like, look,

01:50:33   we have a constrained environment,

01:50:35   so what can we do in that environment?

01:50:37   Let's make a product that fills the role

01:50:40   within those constraints.

01:50:41   And Apple was like, there are no constraints.

01:50:43   We want you to have something

01:50:44   that's even more powerful than a Mac,

01:50:45   but it's in your hand.

01:50:47   - Yeah, it's almost like, I mean, look,

01:50:48   see also like the Vision Pro, like that's like,

01:50:50   you know, they're like, they're shooting for the stars

01:50:52   with that one, like we're gonna have this amazing thing.

01:50:54   Yeah, it's gonna be, you know,

01:50:55   this thing with this big battery pack

01:50:57   is gonna be really expensive, but it's gonna be amazing.

01:51:00   The Palm Pilot was like, you know,

01:51:01   it was more like the Quest.

01:51:02   It was like, we're gonna simplify this way down,

01:51:04   but it'll be a lot cheaper

01:51:05   and a lot simpler in certain ways.

01:51:08   So the Palm Pilot at the time, like it was revolutionary,

01:51:12   but it's interesting, like looking back on it now,

01:51:14   like what I see now is it was,

01:51:18   you know, keep in mind this device

01:51:19   has no built-in networking, barely any built-in like sound.

01:51:24   Like there is like a little like PC speaker kind of,

01:51:26   you know, buzzer beeper kind of thing, but it's very basic.

01:51:29   There's no headphone jack, there's no way to play,

01:51:31   there's no like, you know, MP3 built-in playing functionality

01:51:33   later models added stuff like that.

01:51:36   But like, there's no modern features on this.

01:51:38   If you want to have like your contacts

01:51:41   and your calendars and stuff sync to it,

01:51:43   the way you would sync it was it had a cradle

01:51:45   that plugged into a serial port on your computer.

01:51:48   They had this whole hot sync system

01:51:51   where you'd sync on the cradle

01:51:52   and you'd sync it almost like an iPod,

01:51:54   you know, so it would sync with your computer

01:51:56   when it was on the cradle and you'd take it with you--

01:51:58   - And the connector was like the iPod too,

01:51:59   like remember the 30-pin connector?

01:52:01   - Yeah. - The palm connector

01:52:02   was very much like that, but even crunchier.

01:52:04   - Yeah, but honestly, I think the palm connector

01:52:06   was a little bit more sturdy,

01:52:08   'cause there's like way fewer moving parts

01:52:10   and way fewer pins, but anyway,

01:52:12   it had this whole sync protocol,

01:52:14   and actually, what I was kind of aping with Instapaper

01:52:18   was an app I used to use all the time

01:52:20   on the Palm Pilot called AvantGo.

01:52:22   - Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:52:24   - AvantGo was basically like a web clipper

01:52:27   that would run over the sync process,

01:52:28   so it would, and I think, I forget the details,

01:52:31   I think they actually had deals with publications,

01:52:35   like newspapers and magazine sites that--

01:52:36   - I think that's true. - So you could like,

01:52:38   get your daily newspaper through AvantGo

01:52:40   and it would be fully navigable,

01:52:42   but it would basically save web content

01:52:44   for reading offline on your Palm Pilot.

01:52:46   Again, synced just like an iPod.

01:52:48   I loved that, like I went on a trip one time

01:52:51   in high school and I didn't have any laptop

01:52:54   or anything yet or any cell phone,

01:52:56   so I just loaded up my Palm Pilot

01:52:58   with as much as I could get on AvantGo

01:53:01   'cause I wanted to read material for the trip.

01:53:03   And like, just used it for like a week,

01:53:05   just totally offline, I had a couple of ebooks,

01:53:07   I had a whole bunch of AvantGo stuff.

01:53:08   - Yeah, you could've put ebooks on it, like I said.

01:53:11   I always say that when I say I read

01:53:12   The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit

01:53:13   on the 160 by 160 pixel screen, this was that screen.

01:53:16   - Yeah, exactly.

01:53:17   Like, I just, I love this thing.

01:53:19   It was so far ahead of its time,

01:53:20   and then, you know, so I had the Palm 5X,

01:53:24   you know, as I mentioned in college,

01:53:27   and I remember I was thinking back,

01:53:28   like man, it took a long time for cell phones

01:53:32   to match what the Palm 5X was, like form factor-wise.

01:53:37   Like, the Palm 5X is way smaller than you think it is,

01:53:41   it weighs almost nothing, it weighs like 115 grams,

01:53:45   I mean, it's like half the weight of a modern iPhone,

01:53:48   and it is small and light.

01:53:50   It has a built-in lithium rechargeable battery,

01:53:53   it doesn't last very long after 23 years,

01:53:56   but 24 years, excuse me.

01:53:59   I actually, I've ordered myself a replacement battery,

01:54:01   we're gonna see how that goes.

01:54:03   The installation process is not easy,

01:54:06   according to YouTube videos,

01:54:07   but this whole thing was only 25 bucks,

01:54:09   so if I break it, I can just buy another one.

01:54:12   (laughs)

01:54:13   It is remarkable how many of these there are on eBay,

01:54:16   Palm 5s, Palm 3s, like all the different varieties,

01:54:19   the later ones, like the M series,

01:54:22   they're all over eBay for like 20, 30 bucks

01:54:24   for really good condition ones, and it's kinda fun.

01:54:27   And the thing is, you can't really do anything with it.

01:54:29   I did actually install the sync software on my gaming PC,

01:54:34   and getting it installed was a little,

01:54:37   you had to go to some weird places on the web

01:54:39   to even get a copy of the software

01:54:41   that would run on modern Windows,

01:54:43   then you have to do a couple of weird things,

01:54:45   like make it run as administrator,

01:54:47   I had to get a USB to serial adapter

01:54:49   from God knows who on Amazon.

01:54:50   So there were some hoop jumping to go through,

01:54:54   but I wanted people to install my games.

01:54:56   So it was nice for that, but it is kind of interesting,

01:55:01   this device is just totally on its own,

01:55:03   because it has no built-in networking,

01:55:06   and yet you can get modems and WiFi add-ons,

01:55:09   but they're huge and most of them don't work anymore.

01:55:12   With no networking, it is very limited in what it can do,

01:55:15   it is closer to a Game Boy these days

01:55:17   than to anything useful as a computing device,

01:55:19   but that also means that it's not broken yet.

01:55:24   Anything that relies heavily on networking

01:55:27   that's pretty old is probably totally non-functional today.

01:55:31   - Like the Palm 7 that did have cellular,

01:55:33   I wonder if that just doesn't work anymore

01:55:34   'cause it was analog cellular, you know what I mean?

01:55:36   - Yeah, like what network would that even run on?

01:55:38   That definitely wouldn't work today,

01:55:41   and even if the networking part of it worked,

01:55:43   what is it connecting to?

01:55:45   With what SSL protocol, like,

01:55:47   SSL breaks everything old.

01:55:49   Like that's how the modern internet is like,

01:55:53   basically any devices that have to connect to the internet

01:55:55   to do useful things, after 10 years, they're useless,

01:55:59   because they're gonna fall behind SSL requirements.

01:56:02   But this thing doesn't, because it is self-contained.

01:56:06   If you wanna be even more future-proof,

01:56:08   I would say get a Palm 3X or 3Xe,

01:56:11   because those were, I believe,

01:56:13   the last models to use just regular AAA batteries

01:56:18   instead of lithium batteries.

01:56:19   'Cause that will be even more future-proof

01:56:21   in the sense that you don't have to worry

01:56:22   about this battery that's now 24 years old,

01:56:24   any possible risks of using it,

01:56:26   or just it being very low capacity.

01:56:29   So anyway, I just started playing these games again

01:56:32   the last couple nights, just sitting on the couch,

01:56:34   everyone else was watching TV,

01:56:35   and I'm playing my version of Hearts,

01:56:37   or my version of Mule-Born on here.

01:56:39   It brought back so many memories

01:56:41   of wasting time with this thing,

01:56:42   and it's delightful.

01:56:44   And yeah, the screen is really hard to see.

01:56:47   Like, you can hold the power button down for a backlight,

01:56:52   and the backlight is not much easier to see.

01:56:56   It is old, like the screen technology is very, very old,

01:56:59   and it of course is very limited.

01:57:01   But it is delightful to use this thing,

01:57:03   and I gotta say, I have spent $25 on way worse things.

01:57:07   I'm very happy that, even if it ends up

01:57:11   only being like a fun desk toy,

01:57:13   it makes me so happy to just see and hold

01:57:16   and use this thing.

01:57:17   And I would venture to say, again,

01:57:20   the Palm 5 and 5X both, I think, came out in 1999,

01:57:24   I would say it took at least until the first iPhone

01:57:29   before cell phones had caught up to this form factor,

01:57:32   and maybe even the iPhone 5,

01:57:35   because of how it made it much smaller and lighter

01:57:39   and everything.

01:57:40   I would say the Palm 5 and the Palm 5X,

01:57:42   not only were these the best Palms, in my opinion,

01:57:44   across the entire lineup that were ever made,

01:57:46   just like form factor-wise and like classic looks-wise,

01:57:48   they looked the best, they feel the best,

01:57:51   but also, they were so far ahead of their time,

01:57:54   like maybe a decade ahead of their time.

01:57:56   And yeah, they weren't phones, you know, I get that,

01:57:58   but like, the form factor and the design

01:58:01   and the hand feel and how it feels in the pocket,

01:58:04   and these were amazing devices, super iconic,

01:58:08   way ahead of their time.

01:58:10   And I think Palm OS, as I was saying earlier,

01:58:12   Palm OS, just like the fonts, the widgets,

01:58:16   the interface widgets, the designs,

01:58:18   I love the way this OS looks and feels.

01:58:21   Yeah, of course, it's dated,

01:58:23   but I don't know the history of this,

01:58:25   I would not surprise me if there were some similar talent

01:58:27   between Palm and Apple going on here.

01:58:29   It is way closer to Apple-like than to Windows-like.

01:58:34   And I know, because I also later,

01:58:36   afterwards, when the Wi-Fi era of these things

01:58:39   really came around, I switched to a pocket PC briefly,

01:58:42   between my Palm 5X and my phone eras, I had a pocket PC.

01:58:46   - Same.

01:58:47   - You know, it was better in the sense,

01:58:48   like technically, you know, it had a web browser,

01:58:51   it could very slowly load web pages and everything,

01:58:53   like, so it was better in those ways,

01:58:56   but the design of the OS, the usability, the style,

01:59:01   way better on Palm, way, way better.

01:59:04   And so yeah, it makes me very happy to see this.

01:59:08   I still marvel at the fact that this is 24 years old,

01:59:12   and it just was so far ahead of its time.

01:59:15   So yeah, if you, like me, are nostalgic for old Palms,

01:59:20   I can strongly recommend getting one on eBay

01:59:21   for 20 bucks or 25 bucks, you'd be surprised

01:59:24   how easy and cheap they are to get

01:59:27   for being in relatively good shape.

01:59:29   - And don't forget, in the sort of death throes

01:59:32   of the life of that company, they also had WebOS,

01:59:34   which included lots of UI innovations

01:59:36   that eventually iOS and Android would copy.

01:59:39   And now it runs on your LG television.

01:59:41   - Yep, yep, yep, literally it happens.

01:59:43   On the rare occasions that the TV, like,

01:59:45   fully reboots itself, I don't mean just powers off,

01:59:48   but fully reboots itself.

01:59:49   You see WebOS right there on the TV.

01:59:51   I went through a PalmPilot phase in high school

01:59:53   because we are the same age.

01:59:54   I think it started, I've told this story before on the show,

01:59:57   but it started with an IBM, they had,

01:59:59   what's the less gross term for white labeling?

02:00:03   I can't think of it, but rebranded, let's say,

02:00:07   the Palm, early PalmPilots as, oh gosh,

02:00:11   like message pads or something like that?

02:00:12   I don't remember what they were called.

02:00:13   - Oh yeah, the IBM like work pad or something?

02:00:16   - Yeah, yeah, I forget exactly what they called it.

02:00:18   And Dad was issued one through work,

02:00:20   didn't, used it like twice and said, "This isn't for me.

02:00:23   "Let me screw around with it."

02:00:24   And then eventually I got a Palm,

02:00:26   I think I also had a 5X if I'm not mistaken.

02:00:28   And then I had a Pocket PC, I had a Toshiba E740,

02:00:31   which is important to know because this was one of,

02:00:34   if not the first Pocket PC that had onboard wifi.

02:00:37   And this was when I was in college,

02:00:38   when Virginia Tech was just rolling out wifi on campus.

02:00:43   And it also had a, what was it?

02:00:45   A compact flash port at the top of it

02:00:47   or whatever the IBM micro drive was.

02:00:50   And so what I did was Dad had gotten his hands on a,

02:00:55   I think a one gig micro drive.

02:00:57   And so everyone around me was carrying like Rio or Rio

02:01:00   or whatever it's called, the little crappy,

02:01:03   like 64 meg MP3 players, which I had one

02:01:06   and it was delightful and also a piece of garbage.

02:01:09   The really fancy dudes or people had the nomads

02:01:13   that looked like disc men.

02:01:15   - Yeah, they had a whole hard drive in there.

02:01:16   - Right, but they had a whole hard drive in there.

02:01:18   That was what the fancy kids did.

02:01:20   But what I did was I put a micro drive in my Toshiba E740

02:01:24   and I had a gig worth of, or maybe it was a half a gig,

02:01:27   I don't know, it was a lot for the time.

02:01:28   You know, this was early 2000s.

02:01:30   And I had basically a gig worth of music in my pocket PC.

02:01:35   And it was a complete piece of garbage.

02:01:39   It was slower than dirt.

02:01:41   And I loved this thing.

02:01:44   And I'm looking at it on eBay now.

02:01:46   Not that I necessarily want one,

02:01:47   but it would be neat to see one for a little bit.

02:01:49   And it looks like there's one that they're making no claims

02:01:52   that it works at all for 50 bucks.

02:01:54   And then another one for $325.

02:01:58   And I can assure you it was probably more than $325

02:02:01   when it was new and it wasn't even worth that much.

02:02:03   So it's definitely not 20 years on.

02:02:06   But man, did I love that thing.

02:02:07   Even though I agree with you, Marco,

02:02:09   that the Palm was so much better designed

02:02:12   and operated better, but this was the early 2000s

02:02:15   when it was no longer useful to have a thing

02:02:18   that was a satellite to your computer or not as useful.

02:02:21   You wanted a thing that could actually operate

02:02:23   on the internet on its own.

02:02:24   And that's what this Toshiba did.

02:02:27   And it was pretty cool.

02:02:29   - Jon, you didn't really talk about your time at Palm

02:02:31   or the Palm.

02:02:32   - When you guys were all playing with your things,

02:02:33   I was working for Palm.

02:02:34   When you're playing with your devices in college, yeah.

02:02:36   That's the only reason I ever got Palm stuff.

02:02:38   I never wanted to really buy one myself.

02:02:40   I really wanted a Newton, of course,

02:02:41   but couldn't afford one.

02:02:42   And then when I worked for Palm,

02:02:44   I got the devices free, which is why I have an attic full of them.

02:02:48   Not an unlimited number, but basically,

02:02:50   they give you a device when you got there,

02:02:52   when new ones came out.

02:02:53   And so, yeah, I have a whole bunch.

02:02:54   I even have some handspring stuff over there.

02:02:55   You remember them?

02:02:56   - Yeah, yeah.

02:02:57   - Okay.

02:02:57   - Like an offshoot and then got remerged back in, right?

02:02:59   - Yep.

02:03:00   - When were you there?

02:03:01   What years were you there?

02:03:02   - I remember I got laid off and my son was an infant.

02:03:06   So, I was around 2004-ish was the one that ended.

02:03:11   And I was only there for like maybe a year and a half

02:03:13   or two years or so.

02:03:14   So, 2003, two, three, four.

02:03:16   - Oh, so that was pretty late.

02:03:17   - What was the stack at that point?

02:03:19   Was it C, C++?

02:03:20   - I was doing the web part of it, so I don't know.

02:03:22   But I know the people who were doing it.

02:03:25   We had a Windows C Pocket PC person.

02:03:28   We had a Palm OS person.

02:03:30   We had a Mac OS person and we had a Windows person.

02:03:33   And the Windows and the Pocket PC person

02:03:35   were the same person.

02:03:36   And the Palm OS and the Mac person were the same person.

02:03:38   There wasn't a lot of people in this company.

02:03:40   And I was the web person.

02:03:42   There was one other web person there as well.

02:03:44   - Golly, that's bananas.

02:03:45   - So, yeah, it was a skeleton crew.

02:03:47   But yeah, I got to use all the devices frequently.

02:03:49   I got to support the devices by telephone

02:03:51   for people who couldn't get their eBooks

02:03:52   onto their Palm devices.

02:03:54   Because we would rotate who had phone support duty.

02:03:57   Which is, you know, people say like,

02:03:58   oh, you should have a job working in fast food

02:04:00   so you know what working's like.

02:04:01   And the techno-equivalent of that

02:04:02   is everyone needs to do support.

02:04:04   - It's funny too.

02:04:05   Like all these games I'm talking about,

02:04:07   like my version of Mealborn, 25 kilobytes.

02:04:12   Minesweeper, 14 kilobytes.

02:04:15   - Go get fixed.

02:04:16   It's really good.

02:04:17   - Reversi, seven kilobytes.

02:04:19   Everything is so tiny.

02:04:21   It goes on here.

02:04:22   I mean, the whole thing's only eight megs of storage,

02:04:24   but still like that's really pretty great.

02:04:26   - You should look at it.

02:04:27   Playdate games are like that now.

02:04:28   It's a lot like the non-black monochrome screen.

02:04:30   There's a game that's like a 3D,

02:04:32   like third person 3D flying a spaceship through space.

02:04:35   It's like 25 kilobytes for the whole game.

02:04:37   It's like, how is that possible?

02:04:38   It's all like programmatically generated.

02:04:39   It's really cool.

02:04:41   Not that storage space is a real concern these days,

02:04:43   but it is fun to see how small they are.

02:04:45   (beeping)