563: Drain the Attic


00:00:00   If we didn't go until super duper late tonight, that wouldn't be so terrible.

00:00:04   Oh yeah? What do you think is going to happen?

00:00:06   I'm waking up early. Well, no, I'm waking up early to FaceTime with Jelly. Time changes

00:00:10   mean that there is no convenient time for me to talk to Australia. So I'm waking up

00:00:15   early after having gone to bed late because I'm a big baby and an old man. That means

00:00:20   it would be lovely if we ended before 10.30. How early is early? 5.30 I'm going to be on

00:00:27   the FaceTime call. Oh, wow. I remember those days.

00:00:29   Yeah. I forgot that you had all that time with, what was that, East Asia? Is that right?

00:00:33   FaceTiming with India, yeah. I mean, there was lots of overlap time, so sometimes the

00:00:37   overlap times are, you know, 5 a.m., 5.30 a.m. local time.

00:00:41   My reason for waking up early tomorrow morning is to meet the movers. I am finally, we're

00:00:47   moving out of the old house and oh my God, this has been a process.

00:00:54   Fine. I have a couple of family members who over

00:01:01   the years we've been like, "Why doesn't he move? He's unhappy where he lives. Why

00:01:08   doesn't he move?" You're talking about other family members,

00:01:11   so like Joe and Susie or whatever. Right, right.

00:01:13   Okay, right. I'm with you. And now that I am moving as an adult for the

00:01:18   first time, like, you know, I moved, like, before we bought a house, I moved between

00:01:21   apartments here and there every few years like most young people do. That was also a

00:01:26   terrible process, but moving a house that has accumulated, like, you know, 13 years

00:01:31   of stuff, wow, what a process this has been. I no longer fault anyone for not wanting to

00:01:40   do this process. Like, if you're somewhere and your family's like, "You should move,"

00:01:44   and you don't want to move, you are right. You probably shouldn't move because moving

00:01:49   is terrible. Oh my God, is it bad. I mean, momentum is a mother. It's a lot.

00:01:58   Momentum is a lot. And the thing is, like you said, if you don't happen to live in

00:02:02   a house, and I don't necessarily mean a standalone dwelling, like a townhouse or like a place

00:02:08   where you have lots of nooks and crannies for things, let me assure you that no matter

00:02:12   how clean your house is, you have put, in your case, 13 years of miscellaneous detritus

00:02:18   all over that house. And the easy answer for you, Marco, is to just throw money at the

00:02:23   problem and have movers collect all the detritus and all the other things and pack it up and

00:02:26   move it to somewhere else. But if you're smart, and I know you are, and certainly Tiff

00:02:31   is, you will try to figure out places or, you know, cull and get rid of some of the

00:02:37   detritus. Oh, we've done all of these things. So we have culled, like we filled a whole

00:02:43   dumpster. I think I mentioned on the show, like about a year ago.

00:02:46   We have culled, we have gotten rid of lots of stuff. There's lots of stuff that we are

00:02:50   not taking, that the new buyers of the house, like they're taking some of our furniture

00:02:54   from us because we don't need it. And yet, like, you know, you're in a house for so long,

00:02:59   you're like, "Oh, I could, I'll hang a shelf here." And then that shelf collects stuff.

00:03:05   Now you have more stuff and it's just there forever until move-out day. So we have gotten

00:03:10   rid of stuff, we have cleared out stuff, we have given away stuff. We have given away

00:03:14   lots of our possessions and furniture and things that we don't need in the new house

00:03:18   to friends, relatives, neighbors, some of them to the new buyers, like just trying to

00:03:23   try to minimize stuff. But there's still so much stuff because behind and under and around

00:03:27   and on top of all the stuff is more stuff. Like it's ridiculous how much, and by the

00:03:33   way, like the most shameful part of this is we probably need like 10% of this stuff. Like

00:03:39   most of the stuff we really don't need. Oh man, there is just so much. That's just the

00:03:45   easy state when you have a house, the easy state is to slowly fill it. And so when you

00:03:51   are somewhere for, you know, 13 years, like, and especially like this is where, you know,

00:03:57   we've gone through a huge change in our life in this house. We first got a dog, then we

00:04:03   had a kid and the kid has grown up here. And so, and we've grown over the last, you know,

00:04:09   13 years. Like we, so it's just been all these different phases of our lives and different

00:04:14   people and, and members of the family, you know, and going through all this stuff and

00:04:18   collecting all this stuff, going through different ages. Oh my God, it's so, so much. And I,

00:04:25   I've read the books that Merlin recommends to like get rid of your stuff. And I know

00:04:29   about Marie Kondo and it just, there's still so much stuff. I can't believe it. So anyway,

00:04:35   so we did everything. We got rid of stuff. We called stuff, we give stuff away. And for

00:04:40   the first time we have hired packer movers like they pack and move your stuff for you.

00:04:46   I don't know how that goes and I've never used that service cause any previous time

00:04:50   I moved, we couldn't afford that kind of service. So this is, this is a new thing. So we'll

00:04:55   see how this goes. But also of course we care a lot about certain stuff. So a lot of our

00:05:01   stuff, we've packed ourselves anyway, even though there's literally going to be people

00:05:06   here tomorrow who we are paying to do this for us. But in advance of them coming, you

00:05:11   have to pack some stuff yourself. Not only do you have to pack some stuff, move some

00:05:13   stuff yourself. Oh yeah. My car is full again. For what it's worth. I think we've talked

00:05:21   many times about how my dad has a multi hundred album, a vinyl collection. And for years we

00:05:27   moved every couple of years because my dad worked for IBM and it just so happened that

00:05:32   part of his role, we, we moved geographically, you know, many hours away from home every

00:05:37   couple of years when I was growing up. And early on in this process, mom and dad found

00:05:43   it happened to be a Mayflower moving company or a Mayflower truck driver, owner, operator,

00:05:49   whatever that they explained, all right, we're very particular about this, that and the other

00:05:53   thing, you know, please treat this, that and the other thing in a, in a respectful way

00:05:56   and so on and so forth. And the guy was really, really great about it. Right. Well then they

00:05:59   moved to Connecticut, which is where I went through middle school and high school and

00:06:03   both of my younger brothers went through effectively their whole schooling. So they were there

00:06:07   for something like 20, 25 years. And when he came down to Virginia, I think they either

00:06:10   lost contact with their beloved Mayflower mover, what have you, and they had Mayflower

00:06:15   the company, but a very different, you know, operator go ahead and do the move. And among

00:06:20   the things they did, despite, I'm pretty sure having been instructed otherwise, is they

00:06:24   just randomly threw dad's multi-hundred album vinyl collection into random cardboard boxes.

00:06:28   So we get Virginia and Aaron and I start unloading it and realize, Oh my God, these have been

00:06:34   effectively randomized. And my dad, whom I love dearly, does not deal with that kind

00:06:39   of thing well. So Aaron and I, we tell my mom quietly, here's the situation. The vinyl

00:06:45   is completely out of control. We're going to alphabetize it all. Don't tell dad. And

00:06:50   he was running around like a crazy person doing other things. And so that's what, that's

00:06:54   what I ended up doing with Aaron and I re alphabetize this several hundred album vinyl

00:06:58   collection. And I think that saved all of us potential heart attacks because he would

00:07:03   have been beyond had, had he had to deal with that. So yeah, I don't blame you for wanting

00:07:09   to pack your own stuff in, at least in for the important stuff. And I concur with John's

00:07:13   assessment, even though John, you haven't moved in like 20 years yourself, but still

00:07:16   he's right. Yeah, but when we moved from Georgia up to Massachusetts, it was my wife's work

00:07:21   paid for the move and we had those packer movers. And that's, so that's all I know.

00:07:25   Like from experience they do, they did an okay job, but if you really care about certain

00:07:30   things of packing, can you guess which things I packed and moved myself? Granted, keep in

00:07:34   mind that I had a 1992 Honda Civic DX with one side mirror. That was my transport device

00:07:39   for anything that I, anything that wasn't going to go on the truck was going to go in

00:07:42   there and I had a wife and a dog. It's got to be your mat collection and maybe the dog.

00:07:48   The dog was in the car. The mat collection was not, no way it would fit. It was books.

00:07:52   You know me and my books because you cannot let, because they don't care about like the

00:07:57   corners of the books or the spines of the books or the dust jackets. They don't care

00:08:01   about any of that stuff. So they will just, I mean, they'll try to do an okay job, but

00:08:05   books are heavy. I mean, you get a bunch of them in a box and they're sloshing around

00:08:08   with each other, especially dust jackets are easy to tear, corners are easy to pinch. It's

00:08:12   really bad. So yeah, I, I carefully packed my books in a liquor boxes, you know, like

00:08:17   a very thick cardboard boxes meant to hold a large glass bottle, soap with liquid. So

00:08:22   they're very heavy duty and a pack them in the car. There's no way any of my max, remember

00:08:26   this was the CRT. I had a 17 inch Apple, what's it called? Cinema display, the big 17 inch

00:08:31   CRT. The box that thing came in probably wouldn't have fit anywhere in my civic, except for

00:08:36   maybe the backseat if I could have got it in, but definitely not in the trunk. I mean,

00:08:41   it makes perfect sense given your unique perspective on keeping your books extraordinarily pristine

00:08:48   and perfect. I'm not surprised now that you say that, that that's what you chose to do.

00:08:52   So what time are you waking up then Marco? Uh, like six. That's early, but that's not

00:08:57   completely obscene. Well, good luck. And so the move is hypothetically just tomorrow or

00:09:03   is this a multi-day affair in theory? Well, in reality, this is a multi-month affair because

00:09:07   we are, we are moving into the new house, which is not currently livable yet and still

00:09:12   does not have a bathroom yet or interior doors or other requirements to make things livable.

00:09:20   And so we are moving the stuff into not a storage unit because we did that already and

00:09:25   it's full. We did that with like an earlier culling of stuff resulted in us getting a

00:09:30   storage unit and putting like, you know, stuff that, that couldn't tolerate like temperature

00:09:34   extremes in there. The rest of our stuff is going into the new houses garage for a little

00:09:41   while until the new houses livable and at least for stuff. And then we can bring the

00:09:46   stuff into the house. Um, and no, while the stuff does not require a bathroom, um, we

00:09:52   can't bring it in the house yet because we are sanding the floors next. And of course

00:09:57   that's, that's not something you want your furniture around for. Sounds fun. I would

00:10:03   strongly suggest not renovating houses. And if you do renovate your house, um, I would

00:10:08   strongly suggest never moving. Just don't just never move. Moving is terrible. Get the

00:10:15   right house the first time and then never move. Way ahead of you. Yeah. You love your

00:10:21   house so much, John. It was definitely the right house. We got the right house and we

00:10:26   haven't moved. Oh my God. Yeah. Don't. I mean leaving aside the whole house falling down

00:10:30   thing or so you claim. Yeah, well, that's a video. You keep throwing money at it and

00:10:34   it stays up and you don't have to move. So John, I know you've discussed in, in, in past

00:10:41   podcasts, um, you've discussed like your plan with your family was basically like your deal

00:10:46   with your wife was that, um, at some point, uh, you retire and move to move back to long

00:10:52   Island. Is that, is that still the plan? Like do you, do you plan to actually do this? Cause

00:10:57   I'm telling you, I, I have trouble believing that you will do it now that I'm seeing what

00:11:00   it takes to do it. The good thing about that plan is it, uh, it presupposes retirement.

00:11:06   So that gives you several years to do the process you're trying to cram into like a

00:11:09   few months here. Yeah, true. And it will take several years just to drain the attic. And

00:11:16   you know, who knows if I die before then, then my kids have to deal with it in the grand

00:11:20   tradition of, of, uh, parents dying and leaving all that crap to their kids to deal with.

00:11:25   For what it's worth, you are not allowed to retire from this program. You can retire from

00:11:29   everything else. I would say you could retire from your blog, but you've never really been

00:11:33   unretired from your blog, but you are not allowed to retire from this program. That

00:11:36   is, that is part of the deal. We have some information about keyboard where Ezekiel Ellen

00:11:43   writes, note on keyboard where I experienced this too, especially in my 2014 and 2016 MacBook

00:11:48   pros. In every case, the Apple store would do onsite replacements for free, including

00:11:52   on the butterfly keyboard. Oh, sorry. Trigger warning, Marco, not under warranty. They just

00:11:56   took it in the back and clicked on a new key cap in five minutes. Yeah. I wonder if that,

00:12:01   I wonder if that's a policy or if they just got lucky. Cause I actually went back and

00:12:04   forth. I said, did they, was your thing under warranty? Cause under warranty. Yeah, sure.

00:12:07   They'll replace it. That makes sense, but not under warranty. They'll just do it for

00:12:10   you. That sounds great. I think everybody with a Warren key should take advantage of

00:12:13   that. Uh, we talked last week about open AI and as predicted, everything changed at least

00:12:19   six more times since the time we had recorded. And as we sit here right now and it seems

00:12:24   like the dust is settling. Uh, Sam Altman is back as open AIs chief executive. It seems

00:12:30   like basically the board has mostly gotten ousted and Sam is back in the King has returned.

00:12:36   So reading from a New York times article, Sam Altman was reinstated late Tuesday as

00:12:40   open AIs chief executive. The company said successfully reversing his Alster by opening

00:12:44   AIs board last week after a campaign waged by his allies, employees and investors. Companies

00:12:50   board of directors will be overhauled jettisoning several members who had opposed Mr. Altman,

00:12:54   Adam D'Angelo, the chief executive of Quora will be the only holdover. Fun. Also, I think

00:13:00   John, you put in the show notes, uh, there's a pretty good overview article called five

00:13:04   days of chaos, how Sal Sam Altman returned to open AI and we aren't going to go through

00:13:08   the minutia about how this happened, but you can go ahead and read. That's a pretty quick

00:13:12   and easy summary. So check that out. We all have links in the show notes. Moving on. A

00:13:18   Neil Weinstock was one of a couple of people I think who wrote into remind us of something.

00:13:23   So Neil writes, anyone thinking of buying a new thermostat should check out their energy

00:13:26   company to see if they have deals on the, on these things. Look at the bonkers deals

00:13:29   on the store page on Jersey central power and light, all of which blow away anything

00:13:33   you'll ever get on Amazon or Best Buy or whatever. Yes, that's the cheap nest for one stinking

00:13:37   dollar. They really want you to have these things. I briefly looked into this for my

00:13:41   power company, which is called dominion Virginia power and the ecobee smart thermostat premium.

00:13:47   They're selling for $190, which allegedly is down for two from 250 if you believe dominions

00:13:51   on website and it looks like the fancy nest is down from $250 to $144. So yeah, that's

00:13:59   the thing. Uh, you should check it out. I think that's what I did for mine, but I got

00:14:02   a, when I bought mine, I don't think I bought it through the power company, but I think

00:14:06   that Massachusetts has something where they'll give you a rebate. So you just got to send

00:14:09   him the receipt and I think I got like $100 back on mine. You do have to, you do have

00:14:13   to check though. Sometimes there are some strings attached. I'm like, a lot of utilities

00:14:16   will have these programs where somehow they are able to control your thermostat. If say

00:14:22   for instance, like they're overloaded during a peak summer hour, everyone's ACs are on

00:14:27   and they need to like raise you a few degrees. Yeah, they're going to turn off my AC. Yeah,

00:14:32   you don't have that problem. But yeah, so anyway, it's worth like, make sure if, if

00:14:36   you are getting one of these discounted thermostats from your energy company, make sure either

00:14:41   there are no strings attached or that you are okay with the strings they are attaching.

00:14:44   Yep. Fair enough. Marco, a lot of people were either confused or grumpy about your ecobee

00:14:51   slander. I tells you slander. So do you want to talk to me about how many taps it takes

00:14:56   to change temperature please? Okay. So everyone, I was complaining last episode that my, my

00:15:02   echo be two episodes ago actually. Wasn't it? Ah, whenever. Yeah, I was basically complaining

00:15:06   how like I'm, I'm tired of how clunky it is and they redesigned the UI. I think earlier

00:15:12   this year there was some kind of software update sometime recently, um, redesign the

00:15:15   UI to make it even clunkier and a bunch of people wrote in. Some of them said, you are

00:15:20   right. It is terrible. Most of them said you are wrong. You are terrible. Um, which is

00:15:24   a good summary of most feedback that most podcasts get about anything can confirm. But

00:15:29   the gist of the, I am wrong. Uh, people is that, uh, apparently the one that I have is

00:15:36   an older generation of the hardware. And so when I bought, I bought them about three years

00:15:39   ago, they were transitioning between two models. I bought the best one that didn't have a microphone

00:15:45   and a voice assistant built into it because I thought that's kind of weird. I don't need

00:15:49   that in my thermostat. I think what that actually meant was it was older hardware too, like

00:15:53   older guts, maybe slower processing guts. Well, that was fine under these, the software that

00:15:58   came with them. Um, which it was never, look, the UI was never great and I had lots of problems

00:16:05   getting them set up with home kit. I had lots of problems overriding their dumb smart behaviors

00:16:09   that they wanted me to keep doing and they would override home kit and home kit would

00:16:13   override them and they would fight and home kit would say it was holding with them. Thermostat

00:16:17   wouldn't be holding or it set it to some ridiculous temperature that would make the thing go full

00:16:21   blast like all the way up to 80 degrees or whatever. So they took a lot of babysitting

00:16:25   and a lot of weird set up stuff. They were, they were never great, but at least with the

00:16:29   original software, they were slightly usable and the software update that they did earlier

00:16:34   this year or whenever that was made them substantially slower and less responsive. So for me to change

00:16:39   my thermostat temperature actually requires walking up to it, tapping it to wake it up.

00:16:43   It doesn't wake up on its own for some reason. Tapping it to wake it up, waiting a second

00:16:47   for it to wake up, then tapping the little zone of changing the temperature, which is

00:16:53   a very small tap target now for some reason, waiting for that to activate cause that's

00:16:56   not responsive either. So that's another second gone. Then tapping the actual temperature

00:17:01   up or down or whatever. So in practice I hardly ever do it and I will instead prefer to do

00:17:05   it via, you know, Siri or whatever through home kit. But still that's what I was annoyed

00:17:10   about. Apparently the newer model with the newer hardware is faster and more responsive

00:17:16   and most people say when they walk up to it, it wakes up reliably before they even get

00:17:20   to it. So that saves them one of the taps and one of the animations and wake up delays.

00:17:24   So maybe the new echo bees that I don't have are less crappy than the ones I have, but

00:17:31   you know what's even better? The Nest. I also, I was told by a bunch of people over many

00:17:36   months actually about this product called the Starling Home Hub and this is this little

00:17:40   like hundred dollar, basically what appears to be like a preconfigured raspberry pie kind

00:17:45   of box where it is, it's like a bridge product, a self contained automatic bridge thing that

00:17:50   bridges all Nest products into home kit. Nest cameras, Nest thermostats, whatever, it bridges

00:17:56   them into home kit and a bunch of people wrote in over the last few months to basically say,

00:18:00   I have one of these things and it's great and it bridges Nest into the home kit world

00:18:05   perfectly. So I ordered one of those. I'm going to see how it goes. But everyone recommended

00:18:09   this thing. It's, we've been hearing about it for a while now. Now that I just bought

00:18:13   some new Nest stuff, I figured I'd give it a try. So I'll report back once I have some

00:18:16   time with it to see how it goes. But it comes very well regarded.

00:18:20   No snark. Why buy this thing in not like a raspberry pie? You just wanted the problem

00:18:25   to go away. Oh yeah. The last thing I want to do is try

00:18:28   to monitor like various, you know, things like home bridge or whatever. I was like,

00:18:32   I don't, I don't want to be dealing with that stuff. And for a product that kind of just

00:18:36   is like a self contained version of that, that someone else manages and make sure works.

00:18:42   That is very appealing to me. And plus it was, I think it was only a hundred bucks and

00:18:45   like to get a decent raspberry pie set up these days, you're not looking at that much

00:18:48   less than that. So you know, that was, it was a no brainer to me.

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00:20:47   our show.

00:20:51   We've got a whole bunch of feedback about chip packaging. I can read it. You can talk

00:20:56   us through it. How do you want to do this?

00:20:57   You can read it and I'll just stop off at each point to give you a rest.

00:21:01   All right. Anonymous rights is stop one on our journey. Everyone.

00:21:06   I'm stopping you already.

00:21:08   Anonymous rights.

00:21:09   No, I'm stopping you already.

00:21:10   Really?

00:21:11   Yeah. The fact that I meant to make this point later, but here we are. This is an anonymous

00:21:16   bit of feedback. Okay. Um, one of the things that you have to keep in mind when getting

00:21:23   an anonymous bit of feedback is usually these people aren't going to tell you anything secret,

00:21:28   but they know secret things and they're going to hint at them. And I will point out at various

00:21:33   times when this anonymous person tries to do that and I will translate from anonymous

00:21:39   podcast feedback to English.

00:21:41   All right. I'm excited. Anonymous rights for anyone interested in the topic. I would like

00:21:45   to highlight two excellent videos by Asian, Asianometry. I think I have that pronounced

00:21:50   right, which is a YouTube channel on packaging that should be very accessible to a tech enthusiast

00:21:54   audience. And I did watch two or both of these. Um, and yes, I think they were pretty accessible.

00:22:00   So there, I think a sum total of like 20 to 30 minutes altogether and they are worth checking

00:22:04   out when Gelsinger, which is the Intel head and Srouji, who is the chip head for Apple,

00:22:11   uh, talk about packaging. They are mostly talking about the increased level of integration

00:22:15   where components that used to sit on a shared PCB are now much closer together and integrated

00:22:20   into one unit.

00:22:21   Apple's ultra series chips are the results of state of the art packaging. The trend is

00:22:25   to increase integration and go from two and a half D to 3d architectures from chiplets

00:22:32   to use AMD terminology that are mostly packaged side by side to packaging solutions where

00:22:36   chips are also layered on top of one another components that used to be in different locations

00:22:40   on the motherboard are put closer and closer together. I see a few main drivers that are

00:22:44   behind the increased importance of packaging. And so this is like topic number one, beating

00:22:50   the radical limits. The radicals, the area that a lithography machine can expose in a

00:22:54   single shot. Currently the radical measures 858 square millimeters. Are they right? Yes.

00:23:00   Some zions are close to 700 square millimeters. Nvidia's hopper chip has a die size of 818

00:23:06   square millimeters. The next generation of ASML lithography machines, high NA, UV, high

00:23:12   numerical aperture, extreme ultraviolet have a radical that is half as big. That means

00:23:17   Nvidia will not be able to fab a chip the size of hopper on a two nanometer process.

00:23:21   Even about 400 square millimeter chips, such as Apple's max series chips are close to the

00:23:26   radical limit of a high NA, UV tool and will be less economical as a result. Technically

00:23:32   you can expose two half radicals and get back to the old radical limit of 858 square millimeters,

00:23:37   but this will be significantly more expensive. Moreover, wafer output is decreased. I doubt

00:23:41   many customers will opt for this route and will choose the chiplets instead. Yeah. So

00:23:45   when a Suruji was talking in his interview about how they're interested in different

00:23:52   approaches to packaging and how changes in technology are going to essentially change

00:23:55   the way chips are made. He didn't mention the radical limit, but I have to think this

00:24:01   is a probably the biggest factor. Like Apple makes chips that are bigger than the radical

00:24:06   limit, like it's going to the new radical limit after a three nanometer, right? It's

00:24:11   half as big. So I mean, even even right now, the M3 max could not be fabbed at five nanometer

00:24:17   because it's too big for the radical limit of a five nanometer. It can only, they can

00:24:22   only get that onto a single die because at three nanometer, the feature sizes are a little

00:24:26   bit smaller. Um, so if they're going to have the radical limit next generation, all sorts

00:24:32   of stuff that Apple already makes will no longer fit. So what do they do? The, the two

00:24:36   half radical thing sounds expensive and Apple has in the past chosen, you know, and three

00:24:40   be a very expensive way to get out of a problem like this. But it seems like one of the reasons

00:24:45   that everyone has suddenly becoming super interested in chiplets and different packaging

00:24:49   things is nobody wants to have half the area that they had in the last generation. And

00:24:54   yet that seems to be the case. So everyone's like, I guess we make smaller chips and stick

00:24:59   them together. And so that, you know, it'll be mentioned later with that. Well, what is

00:25:02   it? The, uh, UCI or whatever the, uh, interconnect standard for, uh, you know, putting a bunch

00:25:09   of, you know, UCI. Yeah, I was close to the UCI interconnect standard that we talked about

00:25:13   in the last episode, all the different manufacturers are getting on board so they can all agree

00:25:17   on how these chips are going to talk to each other. Everybody is motivated by the same

00:25:20   thing because nobody has some secret technology that can fab at two nanometers with the old

00:25:25   radical size. The next topic producing chiplets in optimized process nodes. There are process

00:25:30   nodes specific to DRAM memory, which are developed completely independently from process nodes

00:25:35   optimized for logic. They have completely different names such as microns one beta process

00:25:40   caches could be manufactured with cheaper process nodes since there's little or no gain

00:25:44   in terms of memory density by using a smaller node, but you can go even further cell radios

00:25:49   and other components with analog circuits need to be manufactured with yet other processes.

00:25:53   Yeah. That's what we talked about last week of, you know, some PR RAM doesn't benefit from

00:25:58   these processes, but of course if it's all in the same die and you're talking about your

00:26:00   L one cash rail to cash, that's all in the same die as your SOC and you're doing the

00:26:04   whole SOC at three nanometers. So that means you're doing the RAM at three nanometers too.

00:26:08   And that's just a waste because there's no benefit to using the super expensive node.

00:26:12   But once you're breaking things up and if you want to have, you know, if you're breaking

00:26:16   up into little chips anyway, if you can get some of that cash memory onto an entirely

00:26:20   different process that is optimized for memory that may even be better than trying to do

00:26:24   in three nanometer and it frees up space in your actual die. That's interesting. And then

00:26:28   the cell radio thing, obviously Apple has been trying for many, many years now to stop

00:26:33   buying Qualcomm cell radios recently. They didn't give up, but they delayed, they delayed

00:26:39   their triumph even further by saying by, you know, signing a new deal with Qualcomm and

00:26:44   says, yes, we'll buy your cell radios for another whatever years because Apple's attempt

00:26:49   to make a cell radio themselves using Intel's old cell radio business that they bought has

00:26:55   not been going well and there's been many delays. And this is just, as far as I know,

00:26:59   as far as any of us, as far as I think we know from the outside, what they're trying

00:27:03   to do is just make a chip to replace the qua, the chip that they buy from Qualcomm, but

00:27:07   it would be even better if the cell radios could be shoved into the same package with

00:27:12   the SOC using some technology like this and those cell radios and other sort of analog

00:27:17   components. They don't want to be or need to be, and maybe some of them even can't even

00:27:22   be manufactured on these very tiny processes because they need to be a little radio chips.

00:27:26   So having them manufactured on whatever is the appropriate process for them, but also

00:27:31   shoved inside the same package, Apple would love that. Tune into it in 2027, I guess.

00:27:38   Next topic, integrating components from different manufacturers, especially memory. While TSMC

00:27:43   might make Apple's SOCs, memory is supplied by someone else. The big drivers integration

00:27:47   of memory though, AMD has versions of their last two generations of chips that feature

00:27:51   an extra cash chip on top of a CPU chiplet. For example, hypothetically speaking, you

00:27:56   could integrate a modern chiplet with other components into a single SOC. The UCI interconnect

00:28:00   standards should make that easier and cheaper. So when anonymous sources, hypothetically

00:28:04   speaking, they're telling you about a thing that exists. Someone, maybe not Apple, but

00:28:10   someone is integrating a modem chiplet with other components in a single SOC. I don't

00:28:14   know who that is. It might be Apple, it might be somebody else, it might be whatever, but

00:28:18   and they're probably using UCI-E to do that. And I think in the videos that Casey mentioned

00:28:24   earlier, one of them talks about how iPhones have been doing the thing where they, it's

00:28:28   not the same thing here because they're talking about things being kind of, you'll see in

00:28:33   the video, like in the same, I don't know, I should say in the same package, but like

00:28:37   if you take two chips and slap them on top of each other, that's what's in iPhones today

00:28:41   and has been for a long time. But they're basically two independent things that are

00:28:45   manufactured independently and shoved on top of each other. So there's kind of like a sandwich

00:28:48   of crap between them. Actually layering them without that middle stuff saves space because

00:28:52   you don't have to make two independent things that are sort of, you know, weather sealed.

00:28:55   I'm using the wrong terms here, watch the videos. But anyway, it isn't really called

00:28:58   a sandwich of crap. Yeah. But putting two, putting two chips on top of each other without

00:29:05   encasing each one individually saves you depth essentially. And that would be useful for

00:29:10   a phone. So whenever Apple can do that, I'm sure they will. Next topic, leveraging economies

00:29:15   of scale. Chips made up of chiplets are cheaper to produce for more reasons than just yield.

00:29:21   AMD can produce the exact same chiplets for a vast array of products, starting from its

00:29:25   consumer desktop CPU's to its server parts. The only thing that changes is the IO die

00:29:29   and potentially the number of CPU chiplets. AMD can dynamically and flexibly change what

00:29:33   products it makes based on demand margin and other considerations, whether it makes more

00:29:36   server or consumer chips is up to them. Yeah, obviously Apple hasn't gone this route, but

00:29:42   they have tried to do things to save money, especially in the M one and M two generations,

00:29:46   making the M one and M two pro and max basically the same chip, but the pro had a bunch of

00:29:51   GPU cores chopped off. That's a way to save money in time because you don't have to design

00:29:56   a whole third chip this generation. They did design a whole third chip. The M three pro

00:30:00   is different than the M three, which is different than the M three max. And none of those things

00:30:04   are sort of like, there's nothing modular about that. There's modular things in the

00:30:07   design, but they're still all done on one die in a chiplet world. Apple could pull an

00:30:13   AMD and try to break out the parts of the chip and reuse like the IO component across

00:30:18   all the pro chips, for example, instead of having to design each one of the dies, but

00:30:22   we'll see. Like I feel like AMD did a lot of this stuff, not just necessarily because

00:30:27   it's the best, but because of the economies of it. And if you do put everything all in

00:30:33   one die, it has advantages. It's more expensive and it's more of a pain, but that is an advantage

00:30:37   that Apple has. They can pay for the more expensive thing and endure the pain of that

00:30:42   AMD couldn't. So we'll see how this goes. And then final topic, cross pollination of

00:30:47   key technologies. I have to be vague here, but a lot of the technologies that enable

00:30:52   new process nodes for a single chiplet also enable better integration of different chiplets

00:30:56   and vice versa. For example, finding another quote unquote boring application allows companies

00:31:00   to develop a tool or technology over the years until it matures and entirely new applications

00:31:04   suddenly become possible. Other times, the same processing step can be used in very different

00:31:08   ways. I'm very excited about what is around the corner. One last thing, often the buzz

00:31:14   is all about the fabrication of CPU's and GPU's, but many forget about all the other

00:31:19   product categories. When Apple's vision pros announced, I was fascinated by the displays.

00:31:24   A lot of this manufacturing of sticking stuff on top of stuff, using more technical terms,

00:31:29   you know, at the sort of dye level. The sensors for cameras, for example, use some of that

00:31:37   technology of putting stuff on top of stuff mostly to make sure that the light sensing

00:31:41   stuff takes up most of the area of the chip, even though there's also circuitry kind of

00:31:45   behind it. And screens obviously are a kind of reverse version of that where you want

00:31:52   to put a bunch of control circuitry behind a bunch of things that produce light. I'm

00:31:57   not sure what this person is getting at with the vision pro and the displays. I mean, we

00:32:01   know we saw the stories about Sony making those really fancy displays that are used

00:32:04   in the thing, but I'm not sure how that connects to the things we just discussed, like chiplets

00:32:09   and boring technologies and older process nodes, but maybe we'll find out with time.

00:32:13   Just make a mental note of this.

00:32:14   All right, now let's go into ECC corner. So the context here was, I think it was in Ask

00:32:19   ATP where we were asked, "Hey, how come there isn't ECC and Apple Silicon stuff?" And Grady

00:32:24   Borders wrote in, "Historically, the only way to add error detection or correction to

00:32:28   a computer was to add more DRAM chips to store all the data plus the parity information.

00:32:33   These implementations covered both errors in transit and errors in memory. This was

00:32:36   implemented by the chipset independent from any coordination with the memory outside of

00:32:39   extra DRAM chips on the DIMMs."

00:32:42   And I remember these on my Mac Pro, like, there's some more detailed feedback on this,

00:32:46   but like when you would buy ECC memory for your Mac Pro or for your Xeon PC or any sort

00:32:50   of Intel architecture that "supported ECC memory," what you got was a memory DIMM that

00:32:57   had one more chip than the ones without ECC. And they were all just the same type of chips.

00:33:02   It wasn't like there was eight regular chips and then a parity chip. It was just nine chips.

00:33:06   I don't even know what the number was, but whatever it was. And they were all the same

00:33:09   and they were treated all the same. It was just a dumb bucket of memory. And it was the

00:33:14   circuitry that talked to them and filled them with stuff that used that extra space to store

00:33:19   parity information. But the interesting thing about it is obviously those DIMMs are more

00:33:24   expensive, even more expensive. You bought them from Apple, obviously, but you know,

00:33:28   they were practically speaking, they were more expensive because they had one more RAM

00:33:31   chip on them than anything else. They were also bigger. They were also hotter. Everything

00:33:35   about them was more, you know, pro-y or enterprise-y or however you want to say it.

00:33:42   Grady continues, "Today, these two error paths are covered in different ways. Communication

00:33:45   errors are covered by some type of link CRC or ECC. Link coverage is optionally supported

00:33:51   by DRAMs on DDR4 and LPDDR4 and subsequent memories. Implementations require both DRAM

00:33:58   and chipset support. In addition to taking a small amount of bandwidth, the chipset has

00:34:02   to implement a buffer to hold transactions until it is sure no DRAM chip will send back

00:34:05   a link error. The next generation of memory standards will likely require more link ECC

00:34:10   as the data rate keeps increasing. Starting around LPDDR3, the low-power memories began

00:34:17   to implement internal memory array ECC."

00:34:22   Then different feedback from Joe Lyon continuing on that idea, "With array memory ECC, instead

00:34:27   of the system having additional DRAM chips to account for parity data, each DRAM chip

00:34:30   itself has additional 'array space' built directly into the chip. So a 1 gig chip has

00:34:36   1 gig of addressable memory, but about 1.13 gigs of physical storage, obviously at the

00:34:41   cost of a larger chip, fewer dies per wafer, etc. Additionally, the ECC logic is built

00:34:45   directly into the DRAM chip and at the interface between the DRAM array, where the data is

00:34:50   stored, and the DRAM data path, how data moves from the array to the chip I/O pins."

00:34:56   So this is in contrast to the old sort of dumb bucket of bits approach with the DIMMs,

00:35:00   where it was the chipset doing the stuff. This is why the separation of link ECC and

00:35:08   memory ECC are two separate things here, because the chips themselves have some ECC circuitry

00:35:12   built into them, but that's just for the data when it's still on the chip. It hasn't

00:35:16   left the chip yet. So there needs to be a second form of ECC for once the validated

00:35:21   ECC-corrected data leaves the chip, it could still be damaged on its way to the thing that's

00:35:26   receiving the data, and that's why there's this separation that didn't really exist

00:35:30   before, because before it was just a big dumb bucket of chips, and then the chipset would

00:35:33   fill them with data and parity data, and the memory controller would do all the ECC calculations

00:35:37   when it received the data from the big dumb bucket of chips.

00:35:41   The M1 Pro and Beyond all use LPDDR5 or LP5. The M1 SoC used LPDDR4X or LP4. All LP4 and

00:35:50   LP5 chips have on-die ECC built in, which is always on and always working. On-die ECC

00:35:55   will capture and correct DRAM array-related failures, which are historically the vast

00:35:59   majority of memory-related bit flips and memory corruption problems. As with any ECC, there

00:36:03   are limits on the number of bits that can be corrected per access. All the LP5-based

00:36:07   SoCs have the option to enable Link ECC to provide additional ECC protection for channel-based

00:36:13   corruption. From a system perspective, I think we have no way to know if the M series chips

00:36:16   use Link ECC or not. It can be enabled or disabled in real time, so it's possible that

00:36:20   the SoCs always use it, never use it, or sometimes use it. But all LP5 SoCs are capable of it.

00:36:25   The combination of on-die ECC and Link ECC is effectively equivalent to the traditional

00:36:31   system or module-level ECC that servers and high-end workstations use. So you could say

00:36:36   that basically all M series systems already have better ECC protection than any consumer-level

00:36:39   Intel Mac ever did, and potentially equivalent to the ECC protection on the high-end Xeon

00:36:43   Macs. So, boom! How's that feel, Jon? It's pretty good. I'm kind of surprised that the

00:36:50   Link ECC can be turned on and off in real time. That's so weird. We had a bunch of people

00:36:57   speculating, like, maybe the Apple only turns it on for the Pro Max, or maybe they only

00:37:00   turn it on when it's above a certain temperature. I have to think it's either on all the time

00:37:04   or off all the time. But the other thing to consider is the path from the RAM chips to

00:37:08   the CPU is really small in the M series processors. The RAM chips are right, you can see them

00:37:14   in the package. There's the SoC, and there's the RAM chips that are like millimeters away

00:37:20   from it. They're not going across a bus on a motherboard, they're not going through a

00:37:23   bunch of connectors that a DIMM slot thing goes into. So I wouldn't be surprised if in

00:37:27   Apple's testing they said, "You know what? Link ECC is not worthwhile because the Link

00:37:33   is 2 millimeters in length and most ECC-based corruption errors happen inside the chip and

00:37:38   not on transit." But then, if you're able to turn it on and off in real time, it makes

00:37:42   you think you basically get it for free? I know there's supposedly a bandwidth cost to

00:37:46   doing that or whatever, but maybe you're paying that price all the time. So if you're getting

00:37:49   it for free anyway, maybe they have it turned on. I guess we need someone in the know at

00:37:54   Apple to tell us whether Link ECC is enabled or not on the LP5-based Apple SoCs. But yeah,

00:38:01   this is a much more concrete explanation of the thing that I had heard way back when they

00:38:05   went LP DDR4, that LP DDR4 had some kind of thing inside them that was effectively the

00:38:12   same as ECC but not quite, and this is the detailed explanation. The thing they have

00:38:18   is errors that happen within the chip, but then you still need another form of ECC to

00:38:23   make sure the data that is safely leaving the chip makes it to its destination without

00:38:27   corruption.

00:38:28   All right, breaking news from I think last week was that Apple announced that they will

00:38:32   support RCS, which is, what is it, Rich Communication Service, something like that? Which is sort

00:38:39   of kind of, and don't jump on me yet, but sort of kind of like iMessage but not strictly

00:38:45   for Apple stuff. Basically it would allow, from an Apple user's perspective, it would

00:38:50   allow you to send images to Android users that are not potato quality and presumably

00:38:56   receive them in good quality as well. I believe it has an affordance for typing indicators

00:39:01   and read receipts and things of that nature. So there's a lot of very cool and interesting

00:39:08   features that would improve the messaging experience between iPhone users and Android

00:39:15   phone users.

00:39:16   Additionally, we got confirmation that these messages would remain green, so it's not like

00:39:20   they're going to get a different color. They're certainly not going to be blue, but they will

00:39:25   remain green, so they are still second-class citizens. I mean, they're still not iMessages.

00:39:30   And it is worth noting that RCS does not have any official spec for end-to-end encryption,

00:39:36   which is allegedly why Apple was sticking its heels in and refused to implement it.

00:39:42   We don't know what their change of pace is, but I'm sure it had nothing to do with increased

00:39:46   regulatory pressure basically everywhere. Surely that had nothing to do with this whatsoever.

00:39:52   I think Apple does such anyway, because here's the deal, especially with the way they're

00:39:55   handling it. iMessage is Apple's messaging service, but there is also the messaging service

00:40:01   that is not owned by any of the platforms. It's not owned by Google, it's not owned by

00:40:05   Apple, then that. In the olden days it was SMS, because it was owned by the, it was part

00:40:09   of the cell network, it was sort of shoved into the cell network in a clever way. It

00:40:14   predates the existence of these big smartphone platforms, so that was kind of like the messaging

00:40:19   system that nobody owned. But of course SMS was terrible, very limited, very old, not

00:40:24   secure in any way whatsoever. So Apple from day one, not day one on the iPhone I guess,

00:40:29   well I don't know, do you remember, when did iMessage come, was that before 2007 or after?

00:40:34   It was after, I think it was iOS 4 or 5, Steve Jobs was alive for that.

00:40:39   Right, well anyway, in the whole history of time that Apple has had iMessage, which is

00:40:44   its better messaging service that uses encryption and Apple owns it and controls it and uses

00:40:49   the internet and is built in, that's Apple's thing, they've also always had to support

00:40:54   the thing that everybody else uses, which back in the day was SMS. I don't think that's

00:40:59   ever going to go away, there's a huge explosion in things like iMessage, WhatsApp, Line, WeChat,

00:41:07   those are giant platforms, but still, they have all those combined, iMessage, maybe it's

00:41:12   because they're separate, iMessage, WhatsApp, Line, WeChat, all those things have not yet

00:41:16   been able to eliminate SMS. SMS is still the lowest common denominator, so many things

00:41:22   that you do online or whatever essentially expect lowest common denominator, I need to

00:41:27   be able to send you a quote unquote text message with SMS, at least in the US. Obviously in

00:41:33   other countries, things like WeChat are just so dominant that maybe they have essentially

00:41:37   eliminated SMS, but globally SMS has not been expunged, like smallpox, they're still, not

00:41:42   like smallpox maybe, what was that thing, polio they recently almost entirely got rid

00:41:47   of, right? Anyway, the US, we still have SMS and a little bit of polio anyway, because

00:41:53   of vaccine deniers. It's worth building on that just very briefly, because if you're

00:41:57   European or basically any other developed country, it is extremely weird to think that

00:42:02   SMS is still a thing, but truly, if you're in the United States, the only common denominator

00:42:09   that you can pretty much guarantee that everyone can communicate with is SMS. We don't have

00:42:15   a de facto standard between Line or WeChat or WhatsApp, I know that each country or region

00:42:25   tends to kind of settle on one of these third party apps that's not by a platform vendor.

00:42:32   We're going to have really did that. And so the closest we have to everyone being on WhatsApp

00:42:37   is everyone can send SMSs. And so if I were to send a text message to the people in my

00:42:45   life that have Android phones, that's going to be an SMS. And like John said, that technology

00:42:49   is ancient as crap, and it's creaky as crap, and it stinks for everyone involved. But that's

00:42:55   what we've got. And real time follow up iMessage was 2011.

00:42:58   Yeah, and not only is like, oh, we have this lowest common denominator, businesses and

00:43:03   websites and other things. They don't just do the lowest common denominator, they do

00:43:07   nothing else. There's not like, oh, well, if you have our message, we'll send you an

00:43:10   iMessage. And if you use WhatsApp, we'll send you no, they'll never do any of that they

00:43:13   will only send you SMS, which sucks for so many reasons, like, you know, sim cloning

00:43:18   and other security things like two factor stuff is very often SMS and only SMS, they

00:43:23   don't give you an option to use iMessages, they don't give you an option to use WhatsApp,

00:43:26   they don't have an option to use Signal. No, it's just SMS. And I know like, you know,

00:43:32   like so many other things, you know, the metric system or whatever, it's like, well, it's

00:43:35   just the US and a few other weird things. But we're pretty big and you know, Apple and

00:43:39   Google are here. So sorry, we apologize. But that's, that's the problem, right? So RCS,

00:43:44   right? RCS is not as terrible as SMS, it is not as good as any of the modern end to end

00:43:50   encrypted systems or whatever. But in theory, RCS is not controlled by any of the individual

00:43:55   platforms not controlled by Apple's not controlled by Google. It's kind of controlled by all

00:43:58   the carriers together, but they're so technically incompetent, we don't worry about them too

00:44:02   much. So if and when the lowest common denominator changes from SMS to RCS, of course, Apple

00:44:09   was going to support it. They're not in a big rush. They're not enthusiastic about it.

00:44:13   They're not going to say RCS is great, everyone should use it. No, but Apple hates SMS just

00:44:19   as much as all of us do. And I think one of their complaints about RCS is like you made

00:44:23   a new standard and you didn't deal with encryption. That was seems like a bad move. And I agree.

00:44:28   But it's like, look, if it's better than SMS, it was inevitable that Apple would support

00:44:33   it. It remains to be seen whether RCS will supplant SMS. Like I know that's kind of the

00:44:39   plan. It's like it's SMS is old, and this is the new carrier supported thing that's

00:44:43   not owned by Apple or Google. So blah, blah, blah. Of course, Google has its own proprietary

00:44:47   encryption extension on top of RCS that Apple is not going to use because why would they

00:44:51   use the thing made by Google? But I'm not entirely sure that RCS will come and slowly

00:44:56   but surely everyone who's getting SMS messages will start getting through RCS. But if it's

00:45:01   successful, you know, people who live in our world where when people say text message,

00:45:06   what they mean is SMS and MMS, that people will continue to say text message, but oh,

00:45:11   they don't know it's actually arriving through RCS, the new lowest common denominator. So

00:45:15   I'm not surprised by this. But Apple will always, you know, as long as Apple continues

00:45:21   that policy of supporting their thing, and also the lowest common denominator, they will

00:45:24   track the lowest common denominator they will. And it really should be greatest common denominator.

00:45:28   I know the mathematical foundation of that expression in English does not make sense.

00:45:32   I'm sorry, people from other countries who don't like the math, but that's what we call

00:45:36   it here. Again, we use literatively, demean figuratively and vice versa. It's a mess. So

00:45:42   I think that this is a straightforward thing. Like, you know, unless Apple decides, you

00:45:47   know what, we're just going to go all iMessage and that's going to be that and maybe we'll

00:45:50   expand iMessage to other platforms. This is just going to be a fact of life. If and when

00:45:54   RCS comes up with an end to end encryption thing, which Apple is trying to contribute

00:45:58   to, like not Google's proprietary extension, but a thing that's part of the standard for

00:46:04   encryption, I think Apple will support that too. Apple's job with iMessage is to continue

00:46:10   to make it better than the lowest common denominator. And I think they're currently succeeding. And

00:46:16   even if RCS gets standard end to end encryption, I think iMessage will still be slightly ahead

00:46:22   of it due to the integration, due to the probably additional security and so on and so forth.

00:46:26   So I give Apple thumbs up on this move. I was never quite sure why they were so cranky

00:46:31   about RCS other than trying to highlight how much better iMessage is, but I'm not surprised

00:46:36   to see it support it. And I'm not surprised to see them continue to be green bubbles because

00:46:39   that's what RCS is, the new thing that's behind your green bubbles, maybe.

00:46:43   Yeah, I mean, I don't think it's a coincidence that this is, that this was sat on until very

00:46:51   large regulatory scrutiny came about. Like, look, Apple means well and they don't usually

00:46:57   hold stuff back artificially. You know, that's true in almost every way. But Apple knew and

00:47:04   knows as well as we do that those blue bubbles and the iMessage functionality is not only

00:47:11   very strong lock-in to iOS, but also it creates peer pressure. When you have that one friend

00:47:18   who turns your group chats green and makes them suck for everyone else because they're

00:47:22   on Android, when it comes time for that person to replace that phone, you know their friends

00:47:27   are telling them, "Just get an iPhone, please." Like, for the love of God, stop green-ifying

00:47:32   all of our group chats.

00:47:34   And by the way, the other part of that dynamic is another reason Apple is doing this. All

00:47:38   right, so that's that dynamic we're all familiar with. Oh, you green-bulbified it, you fill

00:47:41   out that one because you don't have a blue. The flip side of that, which I'm sure Casey

00:47:44   has experienced, is you're in an iMessage thread and someone is a green bubble, right?

00:47:51   And yes, so they get the pressure of like, "Oh, why don't you have an iPhone?" or whatever.

00:47:54   But then what happens is that thread becomes unreliable. People are missing messages, you

00:47:59   can't tell what's what, things are going out of order, you only see it on one device. And

00:48:03   when that happens, you've already been angered at the green-bulb person, like, "Oh, why don't

00:48:08   you have an iPhone? Be like us, get iPhones," or whatever, right? That's already happened.

00:48:11   Now what happens is, why don't we use something other than iMessage? Because it's clear that

00:48:17   the iPhone, quote unquote, or your iPhones, or our iPhones, or iMessage, are not up to

00:48:22   the task of communicating in this group of people that we need to communicate with. So

00:48:27   why don't we go to WhatsApp or whatever, right? Because WhatsApp is available on Android,

00:48:33   WhatsApp is available on the Mac, and oh, now the thread doesn't lose messages anymore.

00:48:37   And that is what Apple absolutely does not want. So one of the things that is touted

00:48:40   about RCS is, "Oh, now you can have group conversations with those green bubble people

00:48:46   and maybe they'll actually work better." That's the promise. I don't know if that's actually

00:48:49   going to happen, but that is, I think, becoming the dominant factor. And I see a lot of my,

00:48:54   you know, people I know in my life and my children getting off of iMessage and moving

00:49:00   to something like WhatsApp because it is cross-platform and actually works.

00:49:04   I mean, I'm sure that plays a role, no question. But I think the regulatory pressure here played

00:49:09   a much greater role in the timing of this. You know, I think what Apple is going for

00:49:14   here, strategy-wise, there's, you know, places like the EU are looking at iMessage as this

00:49:20   major, like, you know, abusive monopoly kind of lock-in thing and a couple angles about

00:49:25   it that I think Apple wants to minimize in the eyes of regulators. Maybe they want to

00:49:29   say iMessage isn't its own separate network, but it's part of SMS or part of messaging,

00:49:35   whatever. So that might be part of their argument. But I think a bigger thing is there is this

00:49:41   perception, which I think is backed by, you know, pretty solid evidence, that the iPhone

00:49:47   makes SMS or like makes messages from other platforms worse. It makes the experience worse.

00:49:53   And look, if everyone else, if all of Android supports RCS features and Apple's sitting

00:49:58   here with, you know, the limitations of old ancient SMS, I can see that argument that

00:50:03   Apple is maybe quote, artificially holding back non-iPhone chat capabilities to make them

00:50:10   look worse and to make people, you know, want to buy iPhones more or whatever. And if Apple

00:50:15   goes to the level of RCS and not Google's variety of RCS, but just says, we're going

00:50:20   to support this standard and we're still going to color them green so that that way, you

00:50:24   know, they can say, look, people want to know whether they're secure or not, or whether

00:50:28   they support the full feature set or not, but we're going to, we're going to rise to

00:50:31   the standard of the industry cross-platform standard features. We will support those just

00:50:38   fine. We're so therefore we are not holding anything back. We are not artificially penalizing

00:50:43   Android people. We're going to support this industry standard just fine. And also if the

00:50:48   message is blue, you know, that's more secure. Like I think that's going to be more of their

00:50:51   argument here. I don't think they really care that much about having the experience actually

00:50:57   be nicer for Android people in this particular case, because this is a very powerful thing

00:51:01   that sells iPhones. So I think ultimately this is a hundred percent regulatory defense.

00:51:06   And again, I don't describe, uh, you know, less than good motives to Apple with a lot

00:51:11   of this stuff because I know it's usually not true in this particular case, the strategic

00:51:16   and lock-in value of the iMessage is so massive to Apple's most profitable and most important

00:51:22   platform product. It would be, I think foolish to rule it out as a reason. I think this is

00:51:28   absolutely regulatory defense probably on those angles.

00:51:31   I think it's more like USB-C where Apple is going to do it anyway. It's just a question

00:51:34   of the timing and yeah, regulatory pressure can rush along the timing or dictate time,

00:51:40   but you know, USB-C they did it a year before they had to RCS. I'm not sure how much this

00:51:44   is actually going to defend them. I mean, it looks good and it's a little bit of cover,

00:51:47   but if the complaint is that you're you, the platform owns a messaging service that they

00:51:52   privileged, they will continue to privilege it. Right. Yeah. RCS exists. And you know,

00:51:56   you could say, Oh, we'll see, look, we upgraded from SMS. So now it's not as bad, but yeah,

00:52:00   the interoperability angle though is actually a problem for Apple's customers. And if they're

00:52:04   not thinking this, they should be because not being able to have a group conversation,

00:52:09   a quote unquote, heterogeneous group conversation, meaning people from Apple and non Apple platforms,

00:52:14   not being able to have that reliably makes Apple's phones worse. Right. And it makes

00:52:19   people want not want to be on iMessage because very few people can sort of purify their life

00:52:25   by ensuring that everybody they communicate with is going to have an iPhone. I certainly

00:52:29   can't, it's probably like 50, 50% of the, the business text messages I send and text

00:52:35   messages to like, you know, other parents or like other school related things, or, you

00:52:40   know, anybody like people coming to my house to do work, are they going to have blue bubbles

00:52:45   or they can have green bubbles? Am I in a group conversation with multiple parents in

00:52:48   a school thing or whatever? You just can't, there's no way to say they're all going to

00:52:53   be blue. So what actually happens is you buy an iPhone, you want to use iMessage, you find

00:52:57   yourself in heterogeneous conversations and they're just not reliable. And that's frustrating

00:53:01   and it makes you think your phone is broken. And in this country, at least you can't say

00:53:05   to the whole parent teacher group, Hey everybody, let's get it on WhatsApp. That does not work.

00:53:10   No one knows what that is or wants to do it. Or they just say, I just want to use texts.

00:53:15   And so you're the problem now you're the blue bubble person is the problem because it's

00:53:19   working fine on my phone. I don't see what your problem is. I'm not missing any messages

00:53:22   or whatever. Again, I'm not saying that's why Apple is doing this, but it should be

00:53:27   part of their motivation because they actually have a problem. And if adopting RCS can make

00:53:33   heterogeneous conversations more reliable, that's going to be a perhaps surprising to

00:53:38   Apple huge win for them, whether they know it or not.

00:53:41   All right. And then another quick piece of, uh, I guess this could have been follow-up,

00:53:44   but we'll treat it as a topic. Uh, Apple has kicked the can with regard to the iPhone 14

00:53:50   satellite features. So this was the year ago iPhones. They had said on launch that you

00:53:55   would get free satellite nine one one or nine nine nine or whatever your particular equivalent

00:54:00   is. Uh, you would get that for free for a year. Apple announced, uh, sometime earlier

00:54:04   this month, they're going to extend it for an additional year for iPhone 14 users. And

00:54:08   for the 15 users while you get a free for a year. So we don't have to worry about that

00:54:11   yet at least. So, uh, the words can kick that can and hope for the best.

00:54:17   Yeah, this, this is so, so basically to summarize, since launching emergency SOS via satellite,

00:54:23   um, Apple has not yet announced what the plan will be when your free coverage period of

00:54:30   that runs out. So, because so far no products have, have lapsed into that, you know, out

00:54:35   of the free state yet. And looking at this, like, can you imagine what a, just a PR and

00:54:43   just a human nightmare it would be if someone dies and could have been saved by this feature,

00:54:50   but their subscription has expired. Like I don't see any good way out of this PR wise

00:54:56   except just make the feature free for the lifetime of these phones. Like, and ultimately

00:55:02   I think that's probably what Apple will end up doing here when they launch it. I think

00:55:07   they set a time bound in part because they probably didn't really know what their usage

00:55:13   of this feature and therefore costs of this feature would really be. I'm sure, I mean,

00:55:18   I'm sure they had some kind of estimates, but until you get this out into lots of people's

00:55:22   phones in the real world, it's hard to really know. Well now they know they have a year

00:55:26   of usage from the iPhone 14 line having it. Now the iPhone 15s of course also have like,

00:55:31   by now I think they have a much better idea of what this feature is actually costing them

00:55:36   in practice. And that allows them to do two things. You know, number one, it allows them

00:55:40   probably to go to the satellite vendor that they're doing this through and maybe negotiate

00:55:44   better rates over time because now they have more predictable usage. And then number two,

00:55:50   this allows them to better account for it and control their costs in terms of how are

00:55:55   they accounting for this and the purchase price of the phone. And I just don't see any

00:56:01   other outcome other than they just keep kicking the can down the road until they finally just

00:56:05   say, all right, you know what, it's just free forever for these phones. Because I don't

00:56:10   think it's being used so heavily that they would need, you know, cost wise that they

00:56:15   would need to limit it too much because the feature itself, it's already limited in terms

00:56:19   of like you can't do a lot of like chatting or data usage over the satellite. Like it's

00:56:24   engineered to do extremely low data usage, kind of preset things and, and not cost that

00:56:31   much in terms of satellite usage. So I bet it costs them little enough that they, they

00:56:39   will eventually choose just to make it free for the last time of these phones because

00:56:42   the alternative of having to like asking people to pay for this or only including it in certain,

00:56:49   you know, iCloud plus plans or whatever, if they ask people to pay for it, they know most

00:56:54   people won't pay for it. And I, you know, Apple is, especially like, you know, I've

00:56:59   heard Tim cook in particular has, has apparently multiple occasions use the phrase Apple products

00:57:07   don't kill people. Like really like he believes very firmly Apple products don't kill people

00:57:13   in parentheses directly. Right now. And, and that, by the way, like, and I heard, I heard

00:57:17   that was in the context of like, of the old car project. Like you better make sure you

00:57:22   don't mess this up because Apple products don't kill people and we'll get, and that's

00:57:25   a whole, the car project. I think if it wasn't dead already, I think their, their carbon

00:57:31   neutral plans killed it because there is you talk about like, how would you make that product

00:57:37   carbon neutral beginning to end, including the energy it uses during its lifetime. Good

00:57:42   luck. So anyway, I think that project is well and truly dead at this point. But anyway,

00:57:48   going back to the, the, the satellite SOS thing, I think Apple loves that feature. They,

00:57:55   they I think feel very proud as they should, that it really is saving people's lives.

00:58:01   It like they, you see these news stories pop up all the time now from, from some, you know,

00:58:06   car accident victim or hiker or something that was saved by this particular feature

00:58:11   in an area where they wouldn't have had any or many other options. So that's a, that is

00:58:16   a great thing for the world. It's a great story for Apple. It's a great thing that sells

00:58:20   iPhones and it really is helping people greatly and possibly and in many cases saving people's

00:58:26   lives. And, and I think for, for the probably very minimal cost it is costing Apple in satellite

00:58:33   usage relative to the, you know, the overall margin on these phones and everything, I think

00:58:37   they will probably conclude whenever the time comes that they have to make a firm decision,

00:58:42   they will probably conclude it is not worth risking losing people's lives who could have

00:58:49   had this feature, who have the hardware to do it and just didn't buy the $5 a month extra

00:58:54   thing on their, on their plan to, to allow it.

00:58:57   No, because it's so inexpensive. The easy way to still get money for this is you just

00:59:01   charge for per usage retroactively, right? So no one signs up for anything. No one pays

00:59:05   for anything, but Oh, did you use it to save your life? Guess what? You get charged 10

00:59:08   bucks. And once you've been saved from the wilderness, you'll pay that $10 happily. It's

00:59:11   the best $10 you ever spent in your life, right? You're never going to be stopped from

00:59:14   sending the SOS. You never need to sign up for anything, right? But like, again, they

00:59:18   know how low the usage is. If the usage is pretty low and you, you'd only charge them

00:59:23   retroactively, right? And they just eat the cost. Like, well, what if someone's on an

00:59:26   iPhone and they don't even have an Apple ID to then just do it for free, right? But in,

00:59:29   in the common case where someone has an Apple ID, Apple knows who they are. Apple probably

00:59:33   already has their credit card, charge them retroactively, you know, and, and charge them

00:59:36   retroactively a small fee.

00:59:39   You know what I mean? And that's like, Oh, it's going to discourage people from doing

00:59:41   it. If you're trapped in the wilderness, you're going to use it. You're not going to care

00:59:44   that you're going to get charged two bucks. Like you won't buy that extra iCloud space,

00:59:47   but when you're freezing on the mountain, you'll use the SOS feature. Despite the fact

00:59:51   that, you know, that in your next month's bill from Apple, you're going to see a $2

00:59:54   charge or whatever doing for free would be great. But I mean, once you start going that

00:59:58   route, you say, well, you know, it would be great if Apple gave you like two years of

01:00:02   unlimited cloud storage with each phone that you bought, because that would encourage people

01:00:04   to get new phones. Then people would actually save their photos. I just had this conversation

01:00:07   with my sister where she said, Hey, I need you to help me set up the iCloud thing for

01:00:12   my photos. And it made me realize she still doesn't have iCloud photo library enabled.

01:00:16   So all her photos are only on her computer. What is she Casey? Yeah. Oh, I have an enable

01:00:21   now. You're just doesn't have a cloud back person that or anything. Why? Well, who pays

01:00:24   for storage? Like it doesn't, you know, but Jesus, but she's finally succumbed to this

01:00:28   after years of being my sister and hearing me complained about this. Now she's finally

01:00:32   willing to pay, but she's doesn't quite know how to do it. But anyway, yeah, people don't

01:00:36   want pay to save their photos. And when the photos are gone, if you told them, Hey, retroactively,

01:00:40   if you give me a hundred dollars for every year that you use this phone and I gave you

01:00:43   all your photos back, they throw that money at you, right? Cause then their family photos

01:00:46   are gone. But before it happens, like, I'll be fine. It's not quite the same as dying

01:00:50   on a mountain, but it would be nice if Apple built into the cost of the phone enough money

01:00:55   to give Apple its margins for two years worth of iCloud storage. But of course, if you look

01:00:58   at that, well, how much does that actually cost? They make so much more money from the

01:01:02   tiny number of users that actually pay for it. Uh, because you know, what does like you

01:01:07   buy a 256 gig phone? What does 256 gigs of, uh, of iCloud storage actually cost you per

01:01:13   year? It's not like two extra dollars. So anyway, it's just part of the topic that we

01:01:18   probably won't get to this week, uh, about, uh, when you pay more for a product, uh, like

01:01:24   how do you deliver extra value for the extra money? And lots of historically lots of expensive

01:01:29   products have been very expensive, but have given you something that you can't get for

01:01:32   less money. Whether it's like buying clothes from an expensive store where you get easy

01:01:36   hassle-free returns or back in the day, you'd buy very expensive, you know, luggage and

01:01:41   they would be high quality and last a long time. Remember those days, um, you used to

01:01:46   get things for the money, not proportional. You'd pay two times as much and, but it would

01:01:51   be 20% better or you'd pay 17 times as much and it would be 15% better, but it would actually

01:01:56   be better. And it'd be better in ways that, that are perceived, uh, to be more valuable

01:02:02   than they are like, well, you know, I don't have to deal with hassles of returns if I

01:02:06   don't like it, I just returned it no matter how long it's been. Or was the story about

01:02:09   the Merlin tells about some returning snow tires at like a Nordstrom or something and

01:02:13   they don't sell snow tires, but you just take the return anyway, because that's how you

01:02:17   keep a rich customers happy, right? Apple is not in the same class as that, but they

01:02:22   also sell very expensive phones. So it'd be nice if paying that extra money got you some

01:02:27   stuff that people consider valuable and free SOS satellite service for every iPhone customer

01:02:33   definitely fits that bill. So would a free storage equivalent to the size of the phone

01:02:38   that you bought for the life of that phone. And if you only did it for two years instead

01:02:42   of for life of the phone, it might encourage people to upgrade as well. But Apple is not

01:02:45   yet on that page, so we get five gigs for free. Two more little quick things on the

01:02:50   SOS thing before I forget. And before people write in about it, uh, number one, uh, there

01:02:54   are a lot of, um, cellular Apple devices. I don't know if iPads do it, but I know phones

01:03:00   do it and I think watches might do it too. Where, um, even if you don't have a cellular

01:03:05   plan activated, you can place free emergency nine one one calls from those devices at any

01:03:11   time. Yeah, that's a legal requirement in some places too. I think I would, yeah, probably.

01:03:15   And I'm sure there's some deal with the carriers where like, you know, maybe Apple doesn't

01:03:17   really have to pay for that, but, but there is some precedent for, you know, for like

01:03:21   free cellular nine one one access for the life of the device. Um, and again, I'm sure

01:03:27   it works differently with the satellite providers and legality and everything, but that is something

01:03:30   to think about as like a possible parallel or precedent to set here. Um, and then secondly,

01:03:35   there was a rumor that breeze through this fall rumor season, um, that Apple might be

01:03:40   looking to expand the satellite SOS feature into what sounded like from the rumor, basically

01:03:47   free text chatting, like, like, like free form, full texting, not just, uh, you know,

01:03:53   sending kind of canned messages or, or locations. I wonder if maybe the plan here and maybe

01:03:58   they just haven't finished it yet, but maybe the plan here is to launch a paid satellite

01:04:04   messaging plan where maybe the, maybe the current thing that we know of as emergency

01:04:09   SOS, which is just like location and nine one one basically like if that remains free,

01:04:15   but then they have like a premium tier as you know, whether separately or part of one

01:04:19   of their bundles, maybe that is, you know, you can, you can text wherever you are for,

01:04:24   and that might be useful for people who frequently go outside of cell phone coverage areas. Um,

01:04:29   and you know, so maybe, maybe the plan here is this, this free thing will remain free

01:04:34   and it will be partly funded by this premium thing that we're going to launch as, as an

01:04:38   extra bonus, you know, at some point in the future.

01:04:40   Yeah, that'd be small potatoes to Apple, but maybe if to the satellite companies, they

01:04:43   would like those custom, that's lucrative for them because they can, you know, charge

01:04:48   Apple a lot, which then Apple can charge their customers even more because so few on the

01:04:51   grand scheme of things, percentage wise, iPhone customers need to be able to text them edges

01:04:56   from SOS, but the ones that do, you can probably charge them a lot cause they're, you know,

01:04:59   they live in the mountains and it's worth it to them. Uh, and again, that's a tiny,

01:05:03   tiny percentage of iPhone users, but a tiny, tiny percentage of iPhone users is a large

01:05:07   number of people, absolute values to the satellite companies maybe. So we'll see.

01:05:10   Yeah. And like there already are like, I know Garmin sells these products called inreach

01:05:15   satellite communicators that a lot of hikers and stuff use. And they're, they're literally

01:05:19   just like little tiny smartphone like things that just have satellite mode and built into

01:05:24   them and they sell these plans and I think they're like 10 to 50 bucks a month. Like

01:05:29   for the, for the plans, I have one buried somewhere for like super emergency stuff,

01:05:33   but I have like the bottom end plan that allows almost nothing there. This is a whole market

01:05:37   of these satellite communicator things that allow text messaging at certain plan levels

01:05:42   and stuff like that. And so there is clearly a market. It wouldn't surprise me to see Apple

01:05:47   get into this market with their new SOS feature and to just have it be like a five or $10

01:05:52   a month add on or part of Apple one premium plus whatever. You know, I think that's probably

01:05:58   where this is going to head, but I still bet that the, that the SOS feature set we have

01:06:04   now at the emergency nine one one calling and stuff, I bet that remains free forever.

01:06:08   I sure hope so. Yeah. And it was designed from day one to be as minimally intrusive

01:06:13   use as little bandwidth as possible, just basically to be as cheap as possible essentially

01:06:17   and to work in more places, you know, cause like a lot of times, like, you know, if you

01:06:21   don't have a very good view of a satellite, like suppose, suppose you're like stuck in

01:06:24   a, in a, you know, Canyon or something like if you don't have a great view of the satellite,

01:06:30   you might, it might take you a very long time to reliably transmit enough bits to even communicate

01:06:36   what you need to communicate. So they, the protocol that it sends the satellites is very

01:06:40   simplified and uses very few bits of actual data transfer because it has to get through

01:06:46   some pretty severe, not only very long distance, but also like some severe conditions and like

01:06:51   very low signal or high noise ratios and stuff. It's made to be extremely resilient and simple.

01:06:57   So I need to use it. I'm picking my daughter from her school because her high school of

01:07:01   course is in a cell phone dead zone. So when you arrive and you want to text your child

01:07:05   and say, Hey, I'm here to pick you up. You can't, you get to see the little blue bar

01:07:08   I message go almost all the way across the top of the screen and then just sit there

01:07:12   and just waiting to see that word delivered and they're trying to text you. And of course

01:07:17   they're in school wifi, so they think that all their messages are going through, but

01:07:19   none of them are reaching me and why they don't just take a gigantic cell tower in the

01:07:23   center of the school's campus. I don't know, but by the time that happens, my kids will

01:07:27   have all graduated. But yeah, maybe I should try satellite next time and help them in a

01:07:30   canyon slash outside the high school. It's like when people used to like, like bit pack

01:07:36   a their, their messages to their parents when you're calling on the pay phone from school,

01:07:41   come pick me up into the like, uh, the collect calling name field. Will you accept the charges

01:07:46   from, Hey, pick me up at the high school? Yeah, exactly. Like I explained to my kids

01:07:49   that not only could I not text message, my parents went to get me, I would just sit outside

01:07:53   of the high school and just wait and assume at some point a parent will realize I'm not

01:07:56   home and come to get me. It could be hours. It just could be hours. I'm just there. I

01:07:59   was just there for hours. Other people are getting picked up by their parents. The late

01:08:03   bus is long since gone. I missed that one. I'm just going to be at the school. It's getting

01:08:06   dark now. Now I'm inside cause it's cold. The janitors are cleaning up and you know,

01:08:11   and your life is if you can't, if I don't immediately respond to your text message to

01:08:14   come and pick you up. It's like, where are you these days? Oh goodness. So we've had

01:08:22   something in the show notes for months at this point. I don't even know, but we've had

01:08:26   a heading Thunderbolt five and a link to an Intel announcement announcing Thunderbolt

01:08:31   five Thunderbolt five will deliver 80 gigabits per second of bi-directional bandwidth with

01:08:36   and with bandwidth boost. It will provide up to 120 gigabits per second for the best

01:08:40   display experience built on industry standards, including USB for version two because how

01:08:45   can that be more confusing? I know there's a USB four V two. Yes. Before all caps, no

01:08:51   space, then a space, then a capital V and a number two because why not? Yep. How many

01:08:56   different ways has the USB consortium named versions of USB? It's like the joke about,

01:09:03   you know, uh, you know, uh, term paper, a final final V two, you know, for real this

01:09:08   stuff like they have, they have gen numbers, they have version numbers with dots in them.

01:09:13   They have two X two. Now they've got V, but then they took the number and shoved it against

01:09:18   the thing. It's just like, it's a contest to see how many like they, they wrote down

01:09:22   at the beginning, they had a brainstorm meeting and they say, here's all the ways we can think

01:09:25   of diversion something. And they're just going down to listen, checking them off. Indeed.

01:09:29   Well anyways, uh, built an industry standards, including USB for space V two Thunderbolt

01:09:34   five will be broadly compatible with previous versions of Thunderbolt and USB. Why do we

01:09:38   care, John? Why do we care? Well, first thing I think is fun about this is the bandwidth

01:09:43   boost thing. So it's 80 gigabits per second, which is twice as fast as our current Thunderbolt

01:09:47   four. So yay, because Thunderbolt four didn't get any faster than three. It just like up

01:09:51   the USB for compliance to crap, but it was still 40 gigabits. Now they're going to 80.

01:09:56   We like that. Great. Double speed, right? Uh, but it also has 120 gigabits bandwidth

01:10:02   boost. So it's like, where, where did the extra gigabits come from? Why don't you use

01:10:05   them all the time? Does it come from a turbo button that you have to push to make it go

01:10:08   faster? No, it comes from NAS. So the reason they have it is to basically to support big

01:10:13   displays with lots of pixels at high frame rates. Like that's why that feature exists.

01:10:17   And I'm assuming they're not doing it for data because it's like, well, this is the

01:10:21   display mode and we trust that you won't have really long display cables. Like I'm not entirely

01:10:28   sure how they can build the standard so that it supports this for high bandwidth, high

01:10:32   frame rate displays, but not support it for data, but whatever. That's what they're doing.

01:10:36   It's part of the spec. And I'm glad because if you look at, you know, 40 gigabits is not

01:10:41   really enough to do like an 8k display or even a 6k one at like 120 Hertz and stuff,

01:10:45   you know what I mean? Like, so we need a new standard, just the new display port standards

01:10:50   that they'll tunnel over this. We're also having, you know, so now let's go to 80, but

01:10:53   no, no, that's not just going to 80 because if I do the math on 80, what if you have an

01:10:56   8k display and you want to 240 Hertz, Oh, we're out of bandwidth again, how about 120?

01:11:00   And of course you have display stream compression and all that other stuff. So I give this a

01:11:03   thumbs up and I like the fact that it has extra bandwidth for display purposes, but

01:11:09   the one small thing that I want to say about this other than yay, I can't wait for Thunderbolt

01:11:13   five to be on our Mac someday is whenever we talk about Thunderbolt, USB setting aside

01:11:20   the stupid versioning number things, we always complain about the same thing, which continues

01:11:23   to be an issue because this one, as they say, will be quote unquote broadly compatible with

01:11:27   previous versions, which means the connector will be a USB-C shaped plug. And that's a

01:11:33   good connector, but our complaint is always, I have a bunch of cables that have that connector

01:11:38   on them and I can't tell which ones support which things just power is this Thunderbolt

01:11:43   one, you know, two or three, what version of USB does it support? You know, just, you

01:11:48   can't tell by looking at the cable and it's knowing. And I agree with that, but I feel

01:11:52   like with Thunderbolt five is a time to at least recognize the thing that we never talk

01:11:59   about, but still exists, which is the advantage of doing this. And I thought of it related

01:12:04   to when we were talking about dynamic caching, where they're like, Oh, we used to have three

01:12:07   buckets of memory in the GPU. And if you didn't use them efficiently, one of the buckets would

01:12:11   be going to waste and the other one would be full. That's the problem we used to have

01:12:15   on the side of laptops or on the back of desktop computers, but laptops space is tighter. You

01:12:21   would have to divide up your connectors into buckets. Here are the connectors for this

01:12:25   purpose. Here's the connectors for that purpose. And here are the ones for this purpose. And

01:12:29   especially as Apple reduced the number of connectors, if they only gave you two from

01:12:34   this bucket, one from this one and one from this one, you're like, Oh, I really need three

01:12:37   from the middle one, but I just have one of those having all of the holes in the side

01:12:43   of your Mac book pros or most of the holes be USB-C shaped. And on the good computers

01:12:49   support all support Thunderbolt or whatever lets you avoid having to do the other analogy

01:12:55   uses the Linux partitioning thing where I got to figure out ahead of time, how much

01:12:58   I want for user, how much I want for slash and how much I want for swap. It's just all

01:13:02   uniform. And again, on the good fancy computers, they're all Thunderbolt, your cables, you've

01:13:08   still got that problem, but it solves a real problem on the side of laptops is we don't

01:13:13   have to guess how many display connectors do you need? How many networking connectors

01:13:18   do you need? How many storage connectors do you need? Storage display, you know, the,

01:13:24   what was the other one I just said, like everything that you can do, it's all the same shaped hole

01:13:30   and all the same capabilities again on the high end computers, even on the low end ones,

01:13:34   they're all USB-C or whatever. That is an advantage. It's better than the bad old days

01:13:39   when Apple would come up with a new laptop and you'd have to get all new cables and all

01:13:44   new devices sometimes because this one comes with fire 800 and all your things are fire

01:13:47   400 and you can try to get a dongle. And it was just, we don't have that problem anymore.

01:13:53   When they go from Thunderbolt three to Thunderbolt four to Thunderbolt five, you won't get to

01:13:57   get a new Thunderbolt drive. You won't need to hopefully get a new monitor that, you know,

01:14:01   all your old stuff will continue to work. It will fit in the same size and shape of

01:14:04   hole. We still just have the problem of, you know, you can't tell what the hell the wire

01:14:09   support or what the devices support, but I think on the whole, I prefer this world where

01:14:15   we can't tell what the heck the wires are, but the holes are all the same than the old

01:14:18   world where all the wires were easily distinguishable, but every time we got a new laptop, we had

01:14:22   to get all new wires and sometimes all new devices.

01:14:24   Yep. It's a, it's going to be a mess as always. The USB.

01:14:28   That's not my point. My point is not a mess. My point is we should appreciate, we should

01:14:32   appreciate Thunderbolt and USB and all the USB-C things. We should appreciate the good

01:14:36   that's about them. If we know Thanksgiving is on, but we should give thanks because it

01:14:39   was worse than the old days. It is silly that that is still a problem, but we should appreciate

01:14:45   the important advantage that Thunderbolt and USB-C give us, especially now that our phones

01:14:50   have the same shape hole in the bottom of it. It's a better world. Could it be better

01:14:53   still? Yes, but it is better than it was. It's better, but it's still going to be such

01:14:58   a mess. I just, I keep coming back to the, the very oddly named thing. I'm gonna have

01:15:02   to look it up and put it in the show notes. It's like cable QC or something like that.

01:15:06   I forget what it is, but it's a Kickstarter that I, that I backed forever ago that has

01:15:10   two USB-C receptacles in it and a crap load of LEDs that light up based on whether or

01:15:16   not individual lines within the cable are connected or not. Because if you have a USB-C

01:15:20   shaped cable, you can have like USB-2 compatibility, USB-3 compatibility, Thunderbolt compatibility.

01:15:28   And this at least gives you some notion as to what that cable can handle, but it's just

01:15:32   nuts that this is a thing that we have to worry about. And yes, I agree with you that

01:15:37   it's better to have one connector generally, but it's bananas that we have to go through

01:15:42   all this to figure out what the hell this, this connector or this cable can, can handle.

01:15:48   It just drives me nuts. Yeah. And then by the way, my proposed solution to that would

01:15:52   be if they had, as part of the standard come out with a tasteful, this is the problem with

01:15:57   Apple with why Apple reject us, a tasteful standardized labeling policy for connectors.

01:16:03   They came out with a standardized labeling policy where like the spec requires you to

01:16:07   have this symbol on it. If it's Thunderbolt two and this symbol, it would be so ugly.

01:16:11   Apple would hate it and they would put it in really light gray ink on their white connectors

01:16:14   and would no one be able to see it. So it would have to be like in cooperation with

01:16:18   Apple, come up with some kind of thing, preferably some kind of like inset or raised thing that

01:16:22   you could feel like it's a hard design problem. I admit, cause these connectors are small.

01:16:27   The quote unquote good connector companies do do that. They put some kind of thing on

01:16:31   them where you can tell thunderbolt forward and it'll say TB four on it, or it'll have

01:16:35   a little lightning bolt in a four like, or say USB gen or put it, put a gigabit rating

01:16:40   or the ones that have the little LCD displays in them, which is a little bit over the top

01:16:43   or whatever, but like that's where the solution to this problem lies. It's not like let's

01:16:47   make all the connectors different again. It's let's solve the actual problem is I can't

01:16:51   tell what this cable does and yes, a cable tester solves it, but that's stupid. Like

01:16:55   just we have room on the cable to print or emboss something. It's just that everybody

01:17:00   does something different. There's no standard and if there was a standard, it would be solidly

01:17:03   the Apple refused to use it.

01:17:05   Pretty much worth. I, I, first of all, I would love if there was like a, not a Kickstarter,

01:17:12   but like a just a regular product you could buy that, that was a cable tester that would,

01:17:18   that would actually tell you not only like physically what lines are connected, but like

01:17:22   tell me what consumer facing standards this cable supports. So like I don't need to know

01:17:27   if it's connected to the, to the g positive three line. Like just tell me like, does this

01:17:32   support usb 3.2 two by two speeds or does it support Thunderbolt four or like tell me

01:17:38   that and, and one thing I've seen from a couple of people have suggested on mastodon, I'm

01:17:43   sorry if I forget who, so sorry. But a couple of people I've seen suggest that like, wouldn't

01:17:48   it be cool if you plugged in the two ends of a cable to two usbc ports on your Mac book

01:17:56   and Apple told you what the cable supported. Oh, that would be amazing. Like that would

01:18:00   be so cool. They could just test it to run the data though. I think I also saw mastodon

01:18:04   one company is doing like, look, we know people don't know the names of the standards, so

01:18:07   they just put a gigabits rating on them even better. Yeah. I mean, it's hard again, cause

01:18:11   the print, the printing has to be small and embossed and you know, like it's, it's a little

01:18:15   bit tricky and standardization would help. But if you're, if you're interested, you can

01:18:18   find cables that are labeled in a sane way. We don't, we all own ones that aren't. I mean,

01:18:23   look at the, look at the, the image in this diagram or in the show notes, it's from like

01:18:27   an Intel presentation that will link even in their thing. They have a thunderbolt and

01:18:31   a four and a thunderbolt and a five. So in the, in the picture we can tell, oh, that's

01:18:35   the thunderbolt for one. That's the otherwise are identical, but Hey, a number four and

01:18:39   number five. I bet though, when Intel sells their connectors, they don't have the four

01:18:43   and the five of them or the Thunderbolt. One thing also like I, I, you know, as you know,

01:18:49   they've been lamenting how weird and broken this world tends to be the, the weird and

01:18:54   broken area of this world is much more in the USB neighborhood than in the Thunderbolt neighborhood.

01:19:02   A while back, I think it was at the, um, the 2018 Brooklyn event that we, that we went

01:19:07   to Casey with the apple press event that had the, uh, the new, new at the time, Mac book

01:19:11   air, a retina map of air and the 2018 11 inch and new 12.9 iPad pros. Um, at that event,

01:19:21   we had a briefing afterwards and um, I don't, I probably shouldn't say who, but somebody

01:19:27   at apple, um, who, who was fairly high up. I was complaining about how, look, you, you're

01:19:34   leaning so heavily on USB-C here with all these new products, but the, the world of

01:19:39   USB-C, you know, dongles and hubs and everything is terrible. Again, this was 2018 like you

01:19:45   think it's terrible now. It was, it was way worse then. And, and what this person said

01:19:50   has stuck with me. Um, they said, you know, really the, the world of Thunderbolt stuff,

01:19:56   if you get Thunderbolt certified stuff that actually, you know, like that has passed a

01:20:01   number of tests from Intel and certification and everything like the, the Thunderbolt products

01:20:06   that actually bear the logo and, and, and are tested are held to a much higher standard

01:20:12   than most of the USB products. And so yes, Thunderbolt products are fewer in number.

01:20:19   They are more expensive for sure. Um, they usually, you know, have like less graceful

01:20:24   things like, you know, the power situation, like they usually require these giant external

01:20:28   power bricks. Just Thunderbolt can supply a lot of power to its ports. Um, so, you know,

01:20:32   Thunderbolt hubs and Thunderbolt equipment, there's less of it and it's more expensive,

01:20:36   but it usually tends to be really rock solid. Like this is what this person said in 2018.

01:20:42   And I've, I've remember that ever since. And whenever there was a Thunderbolt version of

01:20:46   something I'm looking at, I choose that. And that is not very often. Uh, but, but whenever

01:20:50   there is one, I choose that. And sure enough, they've been right. Like the, the USB hubs

01:20:55   and dongles and docs and stuff I've gotten over the years have all been flaky pieces

01:20:59   of crap. The Thunderbolt things have all been solid. Uh, so it is unfortunate that like

01:21:05   this is the more technically complex protocol that therefore brings a lot more cost and

01:21:10   limitations to it and everything. But the world of USB-C shaped equipment is much, much

01:21:17   better on the Thunderbolt side than the USB side. So if you need something to be really

01:21:22   reliable and if there's a Thunderbolt option and if you can afford it, that it really is

01:21:27   better. So that, that area of this world I think is fine. It's just limited. Um, but

01:21:33   you know, it's the USB side of things that that's on that side of the, uh, of the wall

01:21:38   here. That's, that's been where I've seen the most problems. We were brought to you

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01:23:30   All right, let's do some Ask ATP and it is the holiday season. In fact, as we record

01:23:37   this, it is the end of cyber Monday and still can't believe people use that term. Gary Owen

01:23:43   wants to know now that we are seeing the new crop of TVs, is this the year I should splurge

01:23:47   and upgrade my bargain bin for KLCD TV to something better? John, I think you should

01:23:53   probably handle this. So what's, what's the situation? What is the landscape these days?

01:23:58   First I want to apologize to Gary. His question is from January, 2023. Sometimes you don't

01:24:02   get to these questions for a while. He was talking about CES. I removed the CES part.

01:24:07   But I did put this in here because this is my last chance to do this. And people very

01:24:11   often ask about this very topic. I'm going to tell you what the best TVs of this year

01:24:18   are to buy. First answer Gary's question. Yes, this is a good time to buy a television

01:24:22   to get rid of your crappy old bargain bin for KLCD. And you know, if I could have waited

01:24:28   until this year, I would have, I couldn't wait. I waited, already waited too long, but

01:24:31   Gary, you've probably already waited too long. So if you haven't already bought a new TV,

01:24:35   you should. Now people ask me what, what TVs should I buy or what are the best TVs? You

01:24:40   have to first understand where I'm coming from. When I'm looking for quote unquote,

01:24:44   the best TVs, what I want from my television is a TV that shows the image as accurately

01:24:51   as possible and accurate. What does that mean? What does accurately mean? Well, when video

01:24:56   content is made, there are various standards for every part of the process, but also including

01:25:02   the coloration of the video that the people making it adhere to. They have very expensive

01:25:08   monitors, sometimes upwards like 30, $40,000 that adhere to these standards. So they can

01:25:14   say, I want it to look like X and they look on their $50,000 monitor. And if it looks

01:25:19   like the way they want it to look, that's they've, you know, that's how they want it

01:25:23   to be. What I want is when I see it in my house for it to look like it did on their

01:25:26   $50,000 calibrated monitor, because otherwise they're making it a certain way. And they

01:25:33   think, all right, I've made this scene. So it looks kind of this tinge with this color

01:25:37   and it's this dark and it's this light in this area. It looks the way I want it. There's

01:25:41   people whose job it is to do that. The various colorists and the people who control the lighting

01:25:44   on the show, like they want to look a certain way. They've made it a certain way. If they

01:25:48   send it out into the world and it gets into people's houses and their television is just

01:25:51   screwed all up and it looks weird, they're like, oh, that's not, that's not what I made.

01:25:55   I made, I wanted it to look like this, but then all these people are seeing it this way.

01:25:58   And that is the difficult, the difficulty facing anyone who's making video content.

01:26:02   You want, you want to make it a certain way and have control over the process. Ideally

01:26:06   it would look that way in people's houses. That's how I'm picking TVs. That is not how

01:26:10   most people pick TVs. Most people, as we discussed in the past, pick TVs on whichever one is

01:26:13   brighter, right? Kind of like you pick whatever stereo is louder, pick whatever TV is brighter,

01:26:20   whatever colors are the most garish, the most oversaturated, like people just want things

01:26:24   they think look startling, look you know, they, they, they look dramatic, but that's

01:26:31   not what they're supposed to look like. So if you don't care about that, then don't listen

01:26:36   to any of my TV recommendations, right? Second thing is I'm looking for the best. The best

01:26:41   also is going to mean the most expensive. These are very, very expensive TVs. You should

01:26:46   not buy one of these expensive TVs unless you care a lot about the television looking

01:26:52   as good and as close to quote unquote, correct and accurate as possible. You don't care.

01:26:56   Don't spend this much money on TV, spend it on something you do care about. So with that

01:27:01   aside, in case you're wondering, given that framing, what TV should you buy in 2023? The

01:27:08   answer is the Sony, a 95 L for the second year in a row, Sony has the best television

01:27:15   buying those. It's an old led display comes in 55, 65 and 77 inches. We'll put links in

01:27:20   the show notes to reviews from my favorite YouTube channels about this TV, including

01:27:23   bunny limb, which was a blind, one of the channels as a traditional blind viewing tests

01:27:29   where they invite a bunch of people from the industry in and TV calibrators and stuff to

01:27:34   judge televisions with a bunch of test footage, but they disguise the televisions. So you

01:27:37   can't see any part of the bezel or any part of the stand. Like they, you know, put cardboard

01:27:42   and black stuff all around it just because otherwise you'd be able to tell which TV is

01:27:45   which and then your biases of like liking a particular brand might come in. And for

01:27:49   the second year in the row, the Sony won that contest as well. It's a quantum that OLED

01:27:54   television. It is much brighter than it was last year. And it now comes in 77 inch size

01:27:59   and it is horrendously expensive. But that's the answer. Sony and the five L the answer

01:28:03   next year may be different. So don't hear this and think you're going to buy next year's

01:28:08   best Sony because maybe won't be the best next year. Maybe things will have changed.

01:28:11   But for 2023 if you want a TV and you want it to be the best, it's the Sony a 95 L which

01:28:17   for the record is $3,300 on Amazon on cyber Monday. But that's the 65 inch, right? Correct.

01:28:26   77 is even more expensive. That is five grand for a television and you can't get a bigger

01:28:32   than 77 TVs do come in bigger than 70s anyway. So the net, the runner up is the LG C3. LG

01:28:37   has traditionally been the leader in OLED televisions. They don't have a quantum dot

01:28:40   television but they do have these micro lens array things where they put the tiny, tiny

01:28:44   microscopic lenses over the front of them. It makes it super duper bright. It does have

01:28:48   some advantages of the Sony 85 L but has more disadvantages. One of the advantages it has

01:28:53   is it comes in 83 inch size. It's also way less expensive than the Sony. It's less expensive

01:28:58   because LG in general is less expensive than Sony. And it's probably less expensive because

01:29:02   the the LG makes the the panels, the OLED panels and the quantum dot ones are made by

01:29:08   Samsung. So Sony has to buy them from Samsung and has to repackage them. LG C3 is great.

01:29:13   If you care about gaming, which you'll notice I didn't mention before, the LG televisions

01:29:17   support more high bandwidth ports for like PC gaming. If you want to connect a gaming

01:29:22   PC to this and play it like 120, 140 Hertz, the LG supports more better gaming related

01:29:29   standards. So not that the Sony is bad for gaming, but if you are connecting a gaming

01:29:33   PC to it, or even if you're connecting, you know, Xbox Series X and you want to run that

01:29:38   at really high frame rates with HDR and everything, the LG TVs are a better bet. Speaking of OLEDs,

01:29:44   the the final thing I'll tell you about the best televisions this year is since they are

01:29:48   both OLEDs, OLED burns in. It just does. If you have never had an OLED television or you

01:29:55   leave CNN on your television all day for hours at a time, don't get an OLED. You'll be sad.

01:30:01   If you are going to play a game with a permanent opaque HUD on the screen for hours and hours

01:30:06   and hours every day for years at a time, you will burn in your television. Don't do that.

01:30:11   Don't get an OLED. We'll put links in the show notes to RTINGS many months, this might

01:30:16   maybe years long burn in tests of OLEDs. So you can just hopefully it'll be like one of

01:30:20   those scared straight videos that they show you to try to keep you off drugs in school.

01:30:24   When you see what these televisions look like, if they're left tuned to CNN all day with

01:30:27   a news ticker at the bottom, you will maybe think twice about leaving the room with the

01:30:31   television pause to go to the bathroom. I know these TVs all have screensavers and they

01:30:35   have all sorts of features to mitigate this, but the bottom line is do not leave static

01:30:39   elements on your OLED screen for a long period of time. They will burn in, you will be sad,

01:30:43   it will look bad. Don't do it. That's also part of the price you're paying for the very

01:30:47   best picture quality. It means you can't play a video game with a permanent HUD on it for

01:30:54   hours and hours a day. You cannot watch CNN for seven hours a day on these televisions.

01:30:59   It will ruin them. Don't do it. Watch movies, watch TV shows. Yeah, and definitely don't

01:31:03   play Minecraft unless you want to see the heart bar on everything you ever watch forever

01:31:07   after that. Yeah, that's why I was so excited about Tears of the Kingdom because I forget

01:31:11   a Breath of the Wild bits, but Tears of the Kingdom has a mode with no HUD. I was like,

01:31:14   yes, played the whole game, hundreds of hours on my television, no HUD. It's also a more

01:31:19   immersive experience. It's great. Although the Hallmark Channel is now putting a stupid

01:31:22   bug in the bottom corner of the screen half the time, which is really annoying. Does the

01:31:26   Hallmark Channel usually specify in very immersive experiences? I'm just like, what they have

01:31:32   in the bottom is like, you know, I don't know what that, the branding is for like Hallmark

01:31:36   Home for the holidays. It's like, I get it. We know we're watching a Hallmark movie. You

01:31:39   don't need to put a red text in the lower right corner of the screen for two hours.

01:31:42   It's annoying. So what if you can't deal with an OLED? What if you plan on leaving it on

01:31:48   CNN all day? What other options do you have? They do make televisions that are not OLEDs,

01:31:52   that are almost as good, but not quite. And my recommendation there is the Sony X95L,

01:31:59   which comes in 75 and 85 inch sizes only. So this is a really big TV. This is an LCD

01:32:04   television with led backlights. Sony does a really good job with these of controlling

01:32:10   the backlights and controlling bloom while still again, Sony's big thing is still having

01:32:14   accurate color and all of these things. You have to actually go to the settings and turn

01:32:17   them into whatever the accurate mode is called. I forget. I think it's called like custom

01:32:22   or professional on the Sony's. It's called filmmaker mode on the LG, which supports filmmaker

01:32:26   mode, which is a branded thing to basically say, just show it how it's supposed to be

01:32:30   shown setting up the television is complicated and it's beyond the scope of these buying

01:32:35   recommendations. But yeah. And the other option for LCD television is the Sony X 90 L, which

01:32:42   is as far as I can tell, it's like a smaller size version of the X 95 L it comes in 55,

01:32:47   75, 85 and 98. I guess it's probably older. It comes in really big size. It's older than

01:32:54   the X 95. I just don't understand why the X 95 only comes in 75 and 85, but it does.

01:32:58   But both of these televisions are good choices. If you don't care about gaming, cause you

01:33:02   should just get an LG something if you do. Um, and, but you can't handle OLED cause you're

01:33:07   just not going to deal with that burn and stuff. So Sony X 95 L Sony X 90 L these televisions

01:33:13   will not have OLEDs burning issues. They will not look as good as OLEDs, but they'll look

01:33:17   pretty darn good. And by good, I mean pretty darn accurate. And the final thing that I'll

01:33:22   say is if you want to hear about televisions that are not horrendously expensive because

01:33:27   you don't care about any of this accuracy BS, watch the digital trends, best TVs of

01:33:31   2023 video that we'll put a link to in the show notes. It shows you televisions that

01:33:35   regular people buy for way less money that are also really good and that are also way,

01:33:39   way better than Gary's bargain bin for KLCD television because the technology has come

01:33:44   a long way and for reasonable, pretty low prices, you can get a really good looking

01:33:49   TV that is way better than the television you bought like five years ago, especially

01:33:54   if what you bought five years ago was not a horrendously expensive television. That

01:33:59   actually took a lot less time than I thought. I think that might've been quicker than your

01:34:01   Thunderbolt five. And I've also gone through, I've been advising a friend about buying a

01:34:06   fancy television this year. So I had to, not that I'm not usually on top of this stuff,

01:34:10   but I had to go through the list and find what all the best televisions are. And for

01:34:14   a little while it was touching go because they identified L was released after all the

01:34:18   other televisions. So for a while it was like, is the Sony going to be the best one this

01:34:22   year? But the answer is yes. So that's kind of a shame because 2024 is going to be here

01:34:25   and the 2024 TVs, guess what? They'll be better. So you have to do what I did, which is like

01:34:31   at the time you buy, you just look at what's available and buy the best choice. If you

01:34:34   keep waiting till next year's model, next year's model will always be better. So there's

01:34:39   just no getting off that treadmill. And that's how you end up replacing a plasma television

01:34:43   with an OLED. Like I did.

01:34:44   Out of curiosity what, what, what part of the year does the model year typically turnover

01:34:50   for TVs? That's a good question. It used to be more synced up to be kind of like spring

01:34:55   after CES, but the Sony like barely came out in the fall. I think some of that might've

01:35:01   been like delays with the second generation QD OLED panels. So at this point it's like,

01:35:06   I mean, it's still mostly spring, but because the best TV this year is out in the fall,

01:35:13   it spreads it over the whole year. So like the reviews have kind of been staggering out.

01:35:16   It's like, Oh, the LGs are out pretty soon because they're not too different from the

01:35:19   ones that came before. And then Samsung's QD OLED comes out cause they make the panel

01:35:23   and they give themselves source dibs. And then finally Sony's comes out. So they're

01:35:27   smeared across kind of the whole middle of the year, which kind of sucks, but it's just,

01:35:31   that's something you have to do. You can't like, there's no like, Oh, buy now. And then

01:35:34   finally, there'll be a year turnover. If you buy the Sony 85 L now, but Sony comes out

01:35:38   with a new TV in the spring, you'll have a very short window when this was the best TV

01:35:42   available. But you know, that's, that's the way it is. You can't, you can't wait forever.

01:35:47   And I honestly, I think the jump from the first generation QD OLED panel to the second

01:35:51   in terms of maximum brightness and everything is bigger than whatever the jump will be next

01:35:56   year from the second generation to the third. Who knows, maybe there won't be a new panel

01:36:00   and maybe it'll just be a new chip set. That is the one annoying thing that I should mention

01:36:03   there, which again, you can't do anything about, but, um, the reason LG is good at gaming

01:36:08   is because they make their own chips for handling like the HTMI crap and everything. I think

01:36:13   they're the only company that supports full bandwidth, 48 gigabits per second, HTMI 2.1

01:36:19   on all their HTMI ports. Every other TV in the entire world supports it on like two ports.

01:36:24   And why? Because they have to buy their chip sets from, I think media tech or whatever

01:36:29   the other companies to do it as well, maybe. And these companies only support 48 full 48

01:36:34   gigabits per second on a small number of ports. Their chipsets just don't support it on. So

01:36:38   they put four HTMI ports, but only two of them are the quote unquote good ones. Again,

01:36:41   this only matters for high frame rate, meaning like 120 frames per second, high bit depth

01:36:47   stuff. So it really only matters for PC gaming or high, you know, high end console gaming,

01:36:50   but really PC gaming. So most people don't care, but it is disappointing that like we've

01:36:55   been, you know, HTMI 2.1 has been out for many years now. And still when you buy a television,

01:37:00   you have to look in the manual and say, which one is HTMI one or two or three, like which

01:37:04   one of these are the quote unquote good ones. And do I care for the device that I'm connecting

01:37:08   it? There was a rumor back before CES speaking of CES that a media tech was coming out with

01:37:13   a new pentonic chip set that was going to have HTMI 2.1 on all four ports. But that

01:37:18   was marketing BS live because as we discussed before, you can call your say for HTMI 2.1

01:37:23   if you support like any subset of the features. So yeah, only two of the ports were 40 gigabits

01:37:27   per second. And that was disappointing. So yeah, it does make that much of a difference.

01:37:32   But like I next year, the year after at some point, all the HTMI ports are going to be

01:37:37   the good ones. It's kind of like if you bought a MacBook Pro and there was like one thunderbolt

01:37:40   four port and the rest of them were USB and you had to remember which one it was. That's

01:37:43   what televisions have been like, I don't know for many, many years now. And I just, we're

01:37:48   just all waiting around for one of these third party companies that does the, the chip sets

01:37:53   say all the ports are good. They're all, they all support all the things and we're still

01:37:56   not there. And that's one of the reasons, by the way, one of the reasons Sony is expensive

01:38:00   and one of the reasons it wins and speaks, Sony puts its own additional processing chips

01:38:04   inside there to help out the crappy media tech one to make the television look better.

01:38:09   It also adds a little bit of input lag, which is another reason you should get an LG if

01:38:11   you care about gaming.

01:38:13   Steven Tyler writes, have we have a file stored in iCloud drive randomly revert to an earlier

01:38:17   version? I had a large PDF stored in iCloud drive on my up to date MacBook and iPad. I

01:38:22   found that iCloud drive suddenly reverted back to a version of the file that predates the

01:38:26   most recent edits by four days, losing around 10 sets of edits that happened over those

01:38:31   four days. I had no time machine backup because I had been away from my time machine external

01:38:34   drive and assumed I was safe because I was editing a file live synchronized with iCloud

01:38:38   drive. Apple support escalated to Apple engineering and engineering replied that no forensic data

01:38:43   was available and the recovery of the most recent version would not be possible. So,

01:38:48   in other words, apparently piss off Steven Tyler. Uh, that's not fun. I use iCloud drive

01:38:54   extremely sparingly, so I can't say I've witnessed this. Uh, Marco, have you ever had anything

01:39:01   like this happen? Are you even using iCloud drive for anything? Um, I use it again like

01:39:05   you extremely sparingly. I only have a relatively small number of files in there. Usually it

01:39:12   is, you know, it's the handful of documents that I have in like numbers and pages and

01:39:17   stuff just for ease of cross device use from those apps. Um, but for the most part, I don't

01:39:22   really use it. Um, I, I still use Dropbox as the backing store and the maestro client

01:39:29   app to access it on my max. Um, and so basically I use Dropbox and with a third party app and

01:39:36   uh, that's it. So I, I've never seen this problem in any part. One of the reasons I

01:39:41   don't use iCloud drive for more things is that we occasionally hear about problems that

01:39:46   are in this ballpark, some kind of data integrity problem or data loss problem. Um, that it

01:39:52   just makes me, I know lots of people out there using iCloud drive just fine and never having

01:39:56   any problems. And in my very light use of it, I haven't seen any problems like that

01:40:01   as far as I'm aware, but because we've heard occasional things like this from people, it

01:40:07   makes me hesitant to ever dump Dropbox and go all in on iCloud drive. Yeah. Well, one

01:40:13   thing to emphasize here is a, once again, cloud storage is not a backup. I know that's,

01:40:18   you know, like, Oh, here's a way from his time machine drive, like, okay, do whatever.

01:40:21   But like, you know, you think you're safe because it's safely in the cloud. That's not

01:40:24   a backup. That's a live, that's the live place where you're messing with the data. And if

01:40:29   that service messes it up, that's when you need your backup. Uh, if you don't have one,

01:40:33   it's bad. Uh, iCloud drive, I've always been wary of it in the beginning was super duper

01:40:38   buggy. And even though it's supposedly gotten better, uh, you know, regardless of what you

01:40:43   think the reliability is going to be based on anecdotes that you hear from people or

01:40:46   on podcasts or whatever, one thing we do know is it has very limited user control. There's

01:40:52   not a lot of knobs and buttons that you can press. We'll put a link in the show notes

01:40:55   to some articles from eclectic light company, which is a website where, uh, the delves into

01:41:01   lots of these nitty gritty details. iCloud drive on MacOS has changed so much since it

01:41:07   was introduced. It's always been the same service and you like you pay for it and it

01:41:10   has like a branded name or whatever, but what has implemented that the actual code that

01:41:14   runs on your Mac and probably also as far as, you know, we don't know, but it's the

01:41:18   code that runs on the servers that has changed so much over the years. But through all of

01:41:22   it, it has never been a time where it's been like Dropbox where there's like a button you

01:41:27   can press and say, sync everything now or, you know, like do the thing like Dropbox.

01:41:31   It would just, in the olden days, you just launched Dropbox and it would, when it starts

01:41:35   up, it would look at all your files and it would look at everything into the cloud and

01:41:37   it would synchronize them and do something. And if you wanted to do the thing again, you

01:41:41   could quit it and relaunch it, which is a crude type of control, but not even having

01:41:46   that type of control in the Mac has always been a problem. People will be like, I'm getting

01:41:52   on a plane. I want to make sure these three files are synced. Uh, which little icon in

01:41:56   the finder do I click? How can I make it do it now? I put, click the little cloud icon

01:42:00   and it should be downloading, but it's not changing. What can I do? Like Apple has this

01:42:05   problem. We've talked about it with photos or whatever. I, it's part of the design of

01:42:09   iCloud. And I like, when I say design, I don't mean like the way the code is laid out. This

01:42:13   is the features that they've chosen to expose. It's great if, if it worked a hundred percent

01:42:18   reliably, but it doesn't. And when it doesn't, you're left reading articles like this, like

01:42:23   company ones and keep doing kill all bird D or whatever the hell they're trying to find

01:42:26   out, whichever demon controls this these days and figuring out what's changed in Sonoma

01:42:32   versus the previous version and whether you're using the file provider version of the thing

01:42:36   or like just, it's not what I want out of my cloud storage. Dropbox is also increasingly

01:42:42   helpful. I want to have my cloud storage. Sometimes I look at it and I'm like, I yearn

01:42:46   for the days of FTP where you explicitly did operations. And when you did them, they were

01:42:50   completed. Um, obviously the best defense is all this is action having actually real

01:42:54   backups, but I'm personally super duper wary of iCloud drive still because I don't feel

01:42:59   like it gives me enough control and I'm still using miraculously somehow the non file provider

01:43:05   version of Dropbox, which I mean is the version of Dropbox that doesn't use Apple's new file

01:43:09   provider API APIs and uses whatever the bad old version of Dropbox use where it did sneaky

01:43:14   things behind the back of the iOS. But that one still for me, despite all of its nags

01:43:19   and annoyances works reliably and I can, when I quit it, I know it's not running. And when

01:43:24   I launched it sinks everything back up again. You know, there are other solutions to, you

01:43:30   know, many other companies that are looking to be cloud storage for you. I know iCloud

01:43:33   drive is built in. My kids use it for all their stuff so far. They haven't come crying

01:43:37   to me to tell me all their stuff has gone. And practically speaking, most of their stuff

01:43:42   is not backed up. My son is at college. He's not getting time machine backups onto the

01:43:45   Synology like he would back when he was back in the house. So it's just iCloud drive or

01:43:50   nothing. In my experience, Google drive is more reliable, not the Mac version of Google

01:43:55   drive, but Google drive as used through the web, which is a lot of what both of my kids

01:43:59   use for their schoolwork because schools, as we've discussed in the past, like to use

01:44:03   the Google family of products. And I have faith in Google drive as used on the web.

01:44:07   I say so at the night that there's a story about Google drive disappearing and we'll

01:44:11   put a link to that in the show notes. So no cloud storage is perfect, right? That's why

01:44:16   you have to actually have backups. Cloud storage is not a backup. You could have a backup in

01:44:21   cloud storage, but if you're like, I don't need a backup, my files are in Dropbox. My

01:44:25   files are in Google drive. My files are an iCloud drive. That's where your files are.

01:44:29   That's what you need a backup of. That is not a backup. That's what you need to back

01:44:35   up. Make another copy of that. Put it elsewhere. Not an iCloud. Take the stuff that's an iCloud

01:44:40   drive and put it someplace that's not iCloud drive. Take the stuff that's in Google drive,

01:44:43   put it someplace that's not in Google drive. You can cross back up them to each other.

01:44:46   Hell, my photos are also quote unquote backed up to Google photos as a backup of last resort

01:44:52   in addition to the 700 other places they backed up just because it's another place, right?

01:44:57   And what you're hoping is they don't all get hosed at the same time. So yeah. Anyway, moral

01:45:01   of the story is I personally would still stay away from iCloud drive, but I know lots of

01:45:06   people use it and it does come with your back.

01:45:08   All right. Marcos Venetius Petri writes, considering that push notifications are unaffected by

01:45:13   disabling background app refresh, which apps should we allow or block from refreshing in

01:45:18   the background? What kind of convenience will I lose by disabling it and how much more battery

01:45:22   will my phone consume if I leave everything turned on? So just as a single data point

01:45:27   here, with CallSheet, I sync a handful of things like search history and spoiler settings

01:45:34   and stuff like that. I sync that via iCloud via cloud kit and that is done as far as I

01:45:41   can tell that that works by Apple sending push notifications to your phone to say, Hey,

01:45:46   go update yourself. And I'm not explicitly requesting that. That's just based on the

01:45:51   fact that things have changed in cloud kit. Apple will say, Oh, you know, you need to

01:45:55   go and fetch these updates. And that all happens through this background app refresh mechanism

01:46:01   as far as I'm aware. And so if, for example, you turn that off the CallSheet, is that not

01:46:06   true? Okay, so correct me. Well, background. So background refresh for apps is it's an API

01:46:13   that like apps, apps can register with the system and say basically like wake me up six

01:46:18   hours from now and let me know like when I can update my data. Cloud kit seems to be

01:46:23   kind of a separate process, but background refresh, there's a, there's this framework

01:46:26   called a BG task and it used to be done via a few older methods, but that's the current

01:46:33   way to do it. And it's literally you request that the system wake you up sometime in the

01:46:37   future so that you can then have a short time, usually like, you know, maybe a minute or

01:46:42   half a minute in the background that you can like fetch news data from your server or update

01:46:47   your widgets or whatever else. There's a couple other mechanisms as well. There's a background

01:46:51   processing task, which the phone will only let your app do if it's plugged in. But that

01:46:58   allows you to use a bunch of CPU power in the background, which normally you'd be terminated

01:47:02   for doing. But so if you need to do something like overcast does it's search indexing with

01:47:07   that process where if you, if you plug your phone in overnight, you know, it'll probably

01:47:12   wake overcast up at some point in the night and overcast will make sure the search index

01:47:16   is up to date for all the, all your downloaded podcasts. The other method of background refresh

01:47:21   sort of is you can send from your servers, you can send a silent push notification that

01:47:28   simply wakes the app up. It's called a content available push notification and that wakes

01:47:32   the app up in the background and gives you a few seconds really to like, you know, kick

01:47:36   off network tasks or try to try to do something in the background. And those are not guaranteed

01:47:41   to wake your app up. They're kind of like a best effort thing and the system can throttle

01:47:44   them if it's not really a good power state or if it thinks you're sending too many of

01:47:48   them. And so all, all of those mechanisms are throttleable and actively throttled by

01:47:54   IOS depending on the power state, the, you know, whether, whether there's wifi or not

01:47:59   in some cases. But, but power state's the most important. So in low power mode, I believe

01:48:04   it does almost none of these things or none of these things. That's one of the things

01:48:08   that changes when you turn on low power mode. Normally in other cases it will, it will monitor

01:48:13   the battery level. So if your phone is plugged in, it will allow these things to run pretty

01:48:18   much whenever, whenever they want to on some responsible non abusive interval. If your

01:48:24   phone is not plugged in, but you have like, you know, 75% battery, it's probably gonna

01:48:29   let these things run. Now, yes, you can go in there and you can manually toggle off all

01:48:36   these switches and everything. But my hot take on this is you're wasting your time.

01:48:43   Don't bother. Let the system manage it because the system is really good at managing it.

01:48:46   It isn't it when, when, when you're, when you have background app refresh enabled for

01:48:51   an app, the system is not letting the app continuously run in the background. It is

01:48:56   still doing a kind of like, you know, wake up periodically, do something quickly, and

01:49:00   then we will suspend you again. Kind of, kind of a mechanic there. So it's not, the app

01:49:06   is not running continuously. And as mentioned, you can only do the super CPU intensive tasks

01:49:12   from the background processing task type that only runs when the phone's plugged in. The

01:49:16   regular background refresh when you're out there on battery, the phone is also enforcing

01:49:20   certain CPU usage limits so that you're not burning too much battery power then. And it

01:49:25   only lets you run for a certain amount of time. So you can't be doing that much for

01:49:29   that long. The other side of it is like, if you turn off background refresh for an app,

01:49:34   oftentimes you are making things worse for yourself. There is precedent like, you know,

01:49:38   when a while back, we've talked about this before, a while back, if you would quote force

01:49:42   quit an app, if you remove it from the multi-tasking switcher, it wouldn't allow background refresh.

01:49:47   And Apple in a later iOS version changed that to no longer affect background refresh state,

01:49:53   or at least maybe it acts as an input to how frequently to do it, maybe, but probably not

01:49:57   even that anymore, because people were disabling background refresh unintentionally by quote

01:50:02   force quitting the app, and then the apps weren't working that well. They were not getting

01:50:06   updates. The apps were not working the way the user expected them to work. When you go

01:50:10   mesh with these settings, you think you're achieving a certain gain, but you probably

01:50:17   are not achieving that much of one because the system's automatic behavior is really

01:50:22   good at managing this stuff. I mean, again, see also force quitting apps. There's a lot

01:50:25   of overlap what I'm saying here. You know, force quitting an app because it is stuck

01:50:29   on something is one thing, but force quitting an app just because you think it'll save your

01:50:32   battery power, that's a little squishier and a little bit harder to prove and oftentimes

01:50:38   not doing what you think it's doing. So same thing with disabling background refresh. Generally

01:50:42   speaking, you should leave it alone unless there is a specific problem you've identified

01:50:47   with a specific app that is really out of control in some way. But it's very unlikely

01:50:51   to be due to background refresh because the system manages it pretty, pretty tightly.

01:50:57   One factor you might want to consider is if you have a lot of apps installed, but there's

01:51:03   a bunch of ones that you never use, like ideally the system would notice that you never use

01:51:06   them and not allow them to back or refresh, but it does currently, I don't think it currently

01:51:10   does that to the degree of it. No, it does. Well, I'll give you an example. I have flighty

01:51:16   installed. I rarely use it, but I do use it, but very rarely when I'm picking something

01:51:21   up from the airport or when I'm flying myself, which is enough to allow flighty to do stuff

01:51:26   in the background because not like, well, he never uses this app, but 99% of the time

01:51:31   I do not want flighty to refresh in the background. So if I wrote, and if I found that it was

01:51:35   using a lot of background energy or whatever, if it showed up in my battery list or whatever,

01:51:39   I would say, why is flighty on the list? I don't have a flight that I have to deal with

01:51:43   for three months. At that point, you could turn flighty off. You have to remember to

01:51:47   turn it back on though, because you're going to be like, why isn't flighty working to Marco's

01:51:50   point? Like, why aren't I getting updates about this flight? Yeah, you want it to, you

01:51:54   know, so if you're not going to remember to do that, if you're not going to micromanage

01:51:57   it, then you might want to deal with it manually for apps that you, not apps that you never

01:52:03   use, but apps that you use infrequently. And flight tracking is a great example because

01:52:07   this, especially things that do a good job, they're constantly checking where is this

01:52:11   flight versus, you know, hopefully there's the apps are smart. And when you don't have

01:52:14   anything in your, my flights, let's still don't do that or whatever, but like you want

01:52:18   the value from that app when you use it. But if you know, for sure, I'm not interested

01:52:22   in flights for three months, then you can turn it off. The other option is just uninstall

01:52:26   apps that you're not actually using, which might be better for your life for a lot of

01:52:30   reasons. But, um, yeah, if you really want to, if you feel like, oh, I'm going to, I'm

01:52:35   going to do the opposite. I'm going to do opt in. I'm going to turn a background refresh

01:52:37   off on everything. And I'm only going to turn on the apps that I care about. Just to use

01:52:41   low power mode at that point, low power mode will do that for you. Essentially not allowing

01:52:46   things to run in the background, except for super duper essential stuff. If you really

01:52:49   care that much about your battery, or if you have a phone that like the battery is dying

01:52:52   on and you don't want to replace the battery, use low power mode and you'll see what it's

01:52:56   like to have a phone that doesn't really refresh in the background anymore. And then every

01:53:00   time you launch an app, all the data, and it's out of date or whatever, uh, that's if

01:53:04   you have apps that are currently disabled, if you ever launched them and you're like,

01:53:08   ah, I launched it. I just got to wait for it to refresh. If the app is good and you

01:53:12   enable background refresh, it will make the experience better so that when you've launched

01:53:17   the app, oh, look, all my podcasts are already up to date. I don't need to pull to refresh

01:53:20   them because it did it already when it was plugged in overnight. Right. That's a great

01:53:23   example because like podcasts, you know, people mostly care about, let me see my new podcast

01:53:26   for the day. They don't need to see the new podcast every two minutes. It'll refresh during

01:53:31   the night when it's plugged in if you allow background refresh. So, you know, consider

01:53:35   that for the apps that you do use, make sure background are just turned on for them. I

01:53:38   mean, I would even go as far as to say like, don't do what John just said, but like turn

01:53:41   it off if you don't use it for awhile because a iOS, I don't know if the current versions

01:53:46   do this, but frequency of use and most recent use was, were factors that could, that the,

01:53:53   that iOS would consider when deciding how frequently to allow apps to background refresh.

01:53:59   So that's already kind of being done automatically for you as far as I know, at least it was.

01:54:03   And secondly, the whole idea of, oh, I'm going to turn this off now and I'll maybe I'll remember

01:54:08   to turn it back on later. You won't, you definitely won't, it will stay off and flatty will just

01:54:13   suck for you. Like that's like, so like you shouldn't be like, this is like, you know,

01:54:19   back back when I worked on the internet, it was always kind of frustrating when we would

01:54:24   get reports from people saying feature X is broken on your website. And after some digging,

01:54:31   it would turned out to be, oh, they're running some browser extension that interferes with

01:54:35   the JavaScript that breaks this website. And so it's like they modify their experience.

01:54:42   Then later something broke and they blamed us and not themselves and the modifications

01:54:47   they made. And that causes support headaches and it causes bad user experiences. And it

01:54:51   causes oftentimes bad reviews. I feel like once you're, when you're going and messing

01:54:55   with those kinds of settings with, you know, I'm going to lock down these apps and make

01:54:59   sure they can't abuse my system. Then what happens is you have worse experiences with

01:55:03   those apps and you might not remember why, or you might not realize why, or you might

01:55:07   be toggling a switch that does something that you didn't quite intend for it to do, where

01:55:12   you didn't fully understand what it did. And so you're better off again, unless you've

01:55:16   identified a specific problem with a specific app that you need to address this way, don't

01:55:21   mess with it. Just let it do the default. Because again, iOS does a very good job already

01:55:27   at managing background refresh frequency for apps. And so you don't really need to override

01:55:32   it. Thanks to our sponsors this week, Hatch and Notion. And thanks to our members who

01:55:37   support us directly. You can join us at atp.fm/join and we will talk to you next week.

01:55:46   Now the show is over. They didn't even mean to begin. Cause it was accidental. Oh it was

01:55:53   accidental. John didn't do any research. Margo and Casey wouldn't let him. Cause it was accidental.

01:56:04   It was accidental. And you can find the show notes at atp.fm. And if you're into Twitter,

01:56:14   you can follow them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S. So that's Casey List M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M. N-T

01:56:26   M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M-N S-I-R-A-C U-S-A-C-R-A-C-U-S-A. It's accidental. They didn't mean to. Accidental.

01:56:45   Tech broadcast so long. What do we have to talk about? I had the idea of maybe our fitness

01:56:50   requirements/routines because we were talking about that earlier Casey and it seems like

01:56:56   you seem to be wanting to exercise every day or something like every day. And I thought

01:57:04   that was kind of an interesting thing to discuss because I think that's, I don't think that

01:57:10   has always been the case for you. No it certainly hasn't. Near history yes. Longer history

01:57:19   no. I'm trying to think when this became a thing but it's probably, I would guess it

01:57:26   was during COVID. I don't know I can look at my streak in the health app and see how

01:57:30   long it's been. There have definitely been days that I have not done a dedicated workout

01:57:36   but my streak for closing my exercise ring, which is my trends yes, my trends which I

01:57:44   don't know if Underscore even supports anymore. I have 870 days of, that's with rest I think,

01:57:52   oh no that's without rest, 870 days of exercise goal hit and move goal hit. Apparently I missed

01:57:59   my stand ring once a couple hundred days ago so I only have 204 days there. I guess I'm

01:58:07   no longer a blue ring stud but nevertheless, yeah I think whatever, that is a deep cut,

01:58:14   so whatever 870 days before today was I started getting more serious about doing something

01:58:20   that at least vaguely smells like exercise every single day. Typically I'm doing some

01:58:27   sort of video based workout. Sometimes that's Apple Fitness Plus and often but not always

01:58:33   it's lifting weights occasionally it'll be like a hit high, what is it high intensity

01:58:38   interval training. Thank you. Oftentimes and I feel like I've talked about this on the

01:58:44   show at some point but it certainly hasn't been recently. A lot of times what I'll do

01:58:49   is I'll do, it used to be called Beachbody now I think it's called Body. You would know

01:58:54   them because they're the P90X people and their whole service is very interesting. There's

01:59:04   a lot of really gross stuff to it about how you need to take such and such supplement

01:59:10   and otherwise you'll never get the exercise, the gains that you want and so on and so forth

01:59:14   which I don't pay any attention to. But what they do have is they do have a pretty robust

01:59:18   library of basically fitness and exercise videos, not unlike Fitness Plus. One of the

01:59:22   things I like about Beachbody is that there are programs. So where Fitness Plus in my

01:59:29   opinion falls down and I haven't really used Fitness Plus in the last couple of months

01:59:32   and I think they're starting to add features like this. But one of the ways that Fitness

01:59:37   Plus falls down to me is that it doesn't have any concept of a longer term thing and so

01:59:45   you can go every day and just pick out a random strength training video and you can specialize

01:59:49   and say I'd like an upper body strength video or I'd want a lower body one or a full body

01:59:54   one. But there's no real concept of like over time I would like to have some sort of consistency

02:00:01   that is externally directed. Whereas with Beachbody, whatever they're called now, you

02:00:08   can do like a three to six to eight week program where you're doing basically the same moves

02:00:15   in different orders and in different combinations and whatnot over the course of that two months

02:00:19   or what have you. And so unfortunately because I like food too damn much, I don't know the

02:00:25   next time you see me Marco, I don't know that I'll look that different. In fact, for all

02:00:29   I know, maybe I've gotten bigger. I haven't been on a scale in a while because that doesn't

02:00:32   really matter to me that much. I don't recommend it. Honestly, I understand the utility of

02:00:38   it, but I mostly agree with you that I don't think that number is terribly useful. But

02:00:43   I can tell you unequivocally that I am the strongest that I think I've ever been in my

02:00:48   life. Not to say that I'm an exceptionally strong person, but I am way stronger than

02:00:53   a total complete weakling, which is how I spent the first 30 to 40 years of my life.

02:00:59   So there's that. There are definitely bulgy things that vaguely resemble muscles in places

02:01:06   that never used to be. And I mean, again, you'll look at me and probably be like, Hey,

02:01:09   you look about the same to me. But there's certainly, I can notice some changes. And

02:01:15   Erin said something in this all, but stemmed from Erin starting to take fitness and nutrition.

02:01:20   She's much better with her nutrition than I am with mine. She's taken that much more

02:01:24   seriously over the last two to three to five years. But one of the things she said to me

02:01:30   a couple of years ago now that really rang true to me was leaving aside that you want

02:01:34   to be there for your kids, leaving aside that is the right thing to do to exercise if you

02:01:38   have the ability to do so. And the three of us now have the luxury that we can do this

02:01:42   at basically any time of day. And if I'm completely honest with you, most of the time

02:01:45   I work out at about two o'clock in the afternoon, sometimes after an afternoon siesta, not always,

02:01:49   but sometimes whatever works for you, whatever works, man. But one of the things that Aaron

02:01:55   said to me, which now is less relevant because both the kids are in school, but she said,

02:01:59   you know, I want to see my kids, our kids, you know, taking, I want our kids to see us

02:02:05   taking care of ourselves. And for that to be clear to them that it's an important part

02:02:11   of our lives is doing some sort of physical exertion and activity. And so, like I said,

02:02:16   you know, typically during the week, I'll do some sort of generally strength or, you

02:02:19   know, HIIT training, um, generally directed by some sort of program on, on Beachbody or

02:02:24   whatever it's called. A lot of times I'll do like an eight week program on, on Beachbody

02:02:29   and then I'll take a couple of weeks and just do random Apple Fitness Plus workouts to kind

02:02:32   of clear my palate. And then I'll choose a different program on, you know, eight week

02:02:36   program or what have you. And then typically in the weekends, um, in lieu of like a full

02:02:41   on rest day, Aaron and I will go on a long walk together. So we'll walk like effectively

02:02:45   a 5k, so like three, you know, three ish miles and we'll do that on the weekends. And that

02:02:50   gives us our exercise. Um, and, and, and we're not lifting over the weekend. That is probably

02:02:55   80,000 words where 10 would have done. But, uh, since you asked that, that's where I stand.

02:03:00   Yeah, exactly. Uh, but you also, you and Tiff both have also gotten very, and this happened,

02:03:05   I think before the pandemic is I feel like I saw the beginnings of this when we last

02:03:09   saw each other in 2019. Uh, but you guys have also gotten extremely serious and you made

02:03:13   mention of your bespoke laptop for fitness and, uh, and your personal trainer and what

02:03:17   have you. So this has also been a pretty serious thing for you guys. Yeah, it really has. I

02:03:22   mean, you know, for, it started out, um, that, you know, it was, she's probably seven or

02:03:27   eight years ago. Um, Tiff started training with this trainer that was in our neighborhood,

02:03:33   um, that, you know, a few of her, a few of our other friends here were using. And then,

02:03:37   uh, and I thought it was just like for all the moms cause that's what all the groups

02:03:40   were. And then like one day Tiff's like, you know, you should really start this. I'm like,

02:03:44   I don't, I don't think the moms want me to come into their fitness class. Um, and, and

02:03:49   turns out that like he, that he was just starting a guy class together. Like they, like they,

02:03:53   they, there was like one guy's class that was happening like one day. I'm like, all

02:03:57   right, you know what, I'll go to that. Sure. And it was hard for me because you know, this,

02:04:01   I was, I was in my, you know, early to mid thirties at this point. I've never, I've never

02:04:06   been like super overweight, but I've never been fit in my life before that. And, and

02:04:10   so I never felt good going to gyms. Like I, I go to a gym and there'd be, you know, all

02:04:14   these like big guys and their big muscles going on all the equipment and like, I can't

02:04:20   do any of that and I don't even want to be here seeing you do it. And the last thing

02:04:25   I want is for me to try to do that in front of all of you like that. So, um, I'd had gym

02:04:32   memberships occasionally before and I, it just never stuck cause I would go and I would,

02:04:37   I would be intimidated or not know what to do frankly. Um, and, and I never really enjoyed

02:04:43   it before. Anyway, so fast forward. So this trainer, um, I was a little, you know, he's

02:04:49   still skeptical, um, to go, but I finally made myself go and, and, and this guy, he,

02:04:54   he has really become a very good friend of our family. We've been training with him

02:04:58   for geez, something like seven or eight years now. He is very unlike what you would expect

02:05:03   a trainer to be if you've never had a good trainer. Like he, you know, when, when most

02:05:08   people picture, you know, trainers from gyms, you picture those guys or some kind of like,

02:05:14   you know, drill Sergeant, you know, come on, step it up, don't be a whimper. You know,

02:05:19   you picture that kind of thing and I am not compatible with that at all. Um, but the good

02:05:25   thing is our trainer is wonderful and is nothing like that at all. He is relentlessly positive.

02:05:32   He never makes you feel bad about yourself at all. He trains people at all levels. Like

02:05:36   I went to the, the first class I went to, that was a group class with him. There were

02:05:39   guys who were older than me. There were guys who were younger than me. There were guys

02:05:42   who were more fit than me, guys who were less fit than me. Like I didn't feel intimidated

02:05:46   and he is so amazing and positive and awesome. If anybody actually needs a trainer, feel

02:05:52   free to write it. Cause he, what happened was during COVID, um, he moved and we switched

02:05:57   to FaceTime. And so he does training via FaceTime and zoom now, which you would think wouldn't

02:06:02   work. It surprisingly works. Like he sees everything and look, the downside, of course,

02:06:08   I'll tell you, I'll be honest, downside is personal training. One on one is expensive

02:06:12   because you're paying for someone's time directly to work with you. So of course it's going

02:06:16   to be way more expensive than most other ways to do this. Um, the advantage, if you can

02:06:20   swing it, um, is that for me, nothing ever stuck because I would be like, Oh, you know,

02:06:28   I'm a little, I'm really busy today or I'm feeling a little, a little energy today. I'm

02:06:32   going to skip the workout today when there's a person who you are going to meet that changes

02:06:39   things. I, I will make all sorts of excuses to not do a workout on my own, but I also,

02:06:47   one of my greatest personality flaws, it makes me, makes me vulnerable to every type of sales

02:06:53   person imaginable is that I really want to please people. I very much care about like

02:06:59   being there for people in my life, showing up, pleasing people, making people like me.

02:07:04   I very much care about that to a fault. And so I never miss workouts. Basically like if

02:07:11   I, I will jump through ridiculous hoops to make the scheduled workouts in part because

02:07:16   I am meeting a person who is now a friend of mine and I don't want to disappoint him

02:07:22   and anything he asked me to do in the workout, even if it seems really hard, I'll try it

02:07:28   because the last thing I want to say is, I don't think I can do that. Like, and, and

02:07:33   so, you know, it is, it is wonderful. Again, if you're in the market for a virtual trainer,

02:07:38   I can strongly recommend my trainer. He is the best. And if you think there is like,

02:07:44   if you think like, oh, he's maybe, you know, if you're intimidated by the idea of a trainer

02:07:48   or you think it's like some kind of drill Sergeant thing, trust me, this is not that

02:07:51   at all. Like he's so good and so positive and never makes you feel bad about yourself.

02:07:56   And every workout is different and you can be like, oh, I slept weird on my neck. My

02:08:00   neck hurts. And like, all right, we'll modify it. I'll modify it on the fly to like, you

02:08:03   know, fit whatever you need to fit. Like he's great. Anyway, so that, that really has changed

02:08:09   things for me because I went from, you know, before training with him, I went from basically

02:08:14   never exercising or very rarely exercising to at first doing it once a week, then slowly

02:08:19   ramped up. Now we're, now we're doing three times a week and between those I will occasionally

02:08:24   row or run depending on the season. And now I've finally crossed over to the point where

02:08:30   I care enough that I feel bad when I don't work out for a while. Like if we're traveling

02:08:36   and have to miss a couple workouts, like I really feel bad and I'll, I'll try to like,

02:08:40   you know, go to the hotel gym or whatever and do something just so I'm, you know, so

02:08:44   my body stays awake in certain ways. Like, and that's kind of how it feels now. Like

02:08:49   when, you know, like whenever I go on vacation for a while or I'm not able to work for a

02:08:53   while, my brain kind of feels like, Oh, I really want to use my brain, but I haven't

02:08:57   been able to cause I'm out or whatever. Now my body feels like that. Like now if I'm out

02:09:02   and I like if I'm traveling or whatever and can't work out for a few days, my body gets

02:09:07   that same kind of like itch to like, Hey, I want to do something. I need to need to

02:09:11   do something. Which if you would've told me 10 years ago that was, that'd be saying

02:09:15   that right now, I would've told you you were crazy. But that's what happens. And, and

02:09:19   I'm glad I'm glad I have gone through this, this journey because I too, like you, like

02:09:24   I don't, I probably don't look that strong cause I'm not doing like bodybuilding stuff.

02:09:28   I'm also 41. There's only so ripped I can get, but I am way stronger than I've ever

02:09:36   been before, even though I look about the same, I think I am way stronger than ever

02:09:40   before. And as you get older too, like, and, and this is one of the, one of the greatest

02:09:44   things about having somebody guide you like as a trainer or a training app or something,

02:09:50   I would never think to do some of the exercises that we do. Most of them I would never think

02:09:54   to do. And there's all sorts of like little weird muscles that I've now strengthening

02:09:58   and training and toning and everything. And that's great as you get older because that

02:10:03   is good for like avoiding injuries as you get older or you know, chronic pain centers

02:10:09   and stuff like that. Like I used to get RSI, I don't anymore. I used to get back pain.

02:10:14   I don't anymore. And now I know like as I get older, the areas in which you can get

02:10:20   pain or injuries only go up as you get older. And so now I know like because I'm doing

02:10:25   all this, you know, wonderful mixed training of all these different muscles, I know that

02:10:30   my odds of getting those injuries and chronic pain down the road are lower and that if I

02:10:34   do get any kind of weird injury, my odds are better that I, that it will heal better and

02:10:39   faster and you know, it won't affect my life as much maybe. And so as you get older, it's

02:10:43   kind of like saving for retirement. Like you should really start doing it as soon as you

02:10:47   can ideally. And the earlier you start, the more you'll appreciate that when you're

02:10:52   older. That's how like an exercise routine is also like when you're young, you can

02:10:56   get away with not doing it as you get older. You really can't get away with that as

02:11:00   easily anymore. And the best time to start is, is now if you can like do something and

02:11:06   whatever it is like I know our friends over at cortex, I love the fit bot app. I know

02:11:11   great talks a lot about how that has, that has really changed his life and that, that's,

02:11:15   that's something that like if my trainer ever stopped, stop working or something, I

02:11:19   would probably try that next. But ultimately for me, I really need the human that I want

02:11:24   to please for me to really stick with something.

02:11:26   Very quick real time follow up. Then I'd like to hear John, what your situation is.

02:11:30   I was poking about generating links for the show notes and I thought I had seen something

02:11:37   about this and it appears I was correct on fitness plus they now have a feature called

02:11:42   custom plan where the little blur marketing blur breeds stay consistent on your fitness

02:11:47   journey with custom plans. Choose your personal preferences, including the days,

02:11:50   durations, workout types, meditation, themes, trainers, and music, and fitness plus will

02:11:53   generate a custom plan just for you and with stacks, which is another new thing of theirs

02:11:57   that I haven't played with yet. You can move seamlessly from one workout or meditation

02:12:00   to the next with no interruptions. Just set it and then get it. So I, this is more along

02:12:05   the lines of what I feel like I do get from the beach body stuff, which I think is called

02:12:08   just body now. And, and I never felt like I got that from fitness plus, particularly

02:12:14   the plan part, like the stack thing where you roll from one workout to another, whatever.

02:12:18   But the whole custom plan thing, again, I haven't fiddled with this yet, but once I

02:12:22   finished my current program on, on body then I'll probably at least fiddle with this custom

02:12:27   plan thing. And I will say that if you're new to this, well, first of all, talk to somebody

02:12:33   who actually knows what they're doing, preferably like a doctor or a or a fitness specialist,

02:12:37   which is not either of us. But, um, but the fitness plus stuff is really a really good

02:12:42   introduction and they're really, really good about not being broey. The body stuff can

02:12:48   get a little broey from time to time and not, not to say it's all dudes that are training,

02:12:53   but you know, given that it came from P90X, you can see how it could get a little aggressive

02:12:58   and generally speaking, it isn't bad. And generally speaking, I actually quite like

02:13:02   it. Again, if you can filter out all the, you know, take this chemical, that's the only

02:13:07   way you'll get fit business. Um, but nevertheless, uh, with the fitness plus stuff is a really

02:13:13   approachable way to ease into any sort of fitness and just see if it's something that

02:13:19   you can physically do without hurting yourself. And if there's, if it's anything that you

02:13:23   enjoy. So, uh, especially if you happen to be an apple one or whatever it's called subscriber,

02:13:27   um, I would definitely at least give it a whirl. And I really do quite love having, and

02:13:33   this is unique to fitness plus because you know, it's integrated and all that. You can

02:13:37   see your rings right there on the screen as you're doing a workout, which is super nice

02:13:40   to see yourself as you're doing this workout, see yourself cranking through your red ring

02:13:44   and your green ring and what have you. I find that to be very motivating. And speaking of

02:13:49   rings, and I promise John, I'll give you a chance here. Um, I think what has helped for

02:13:53   me is having gotten a 800 plus day streak going. And there definitely have been a couple

02:14:01   of days where I probably should have just not worked out or whatever, but on the whole,

02:14:08   I think similar to you saying Marco that you had someone to answer to, I have this momentum

02:14:13   that I don't want to lose. And I think that has been helpful for me. And so, you know,

02:14:19   I'm going to be doing a little bit of traveling soon and I've been thinking through and I

02:14:23   was talking with Marco about this, you know, what, what can I do for some modicum of exercise

02:14:28   during this travel window? And I think what I'll end up doing is just going for a walk,

02:14:31   which is not what I would normally do on a weekday, but it's fine. I just want to do

02:14:35   something to get my body moving, something to close my rings and keep that momentum going

02:14:39   because I probably speak for Marco, but I definitely will say for myself that too many

02:14:44   missed days and I can, I can see myself immediately just giving up on it just out of complacency.

02:14:50   Like not, not because I desire sitting here to not work out. I actually do enjoy it like

02:14:55   Marco was saying, but I, it would not take that much to get me to be very complacent

02:15:00   and fall into my natural state of being, which is, I'll, I'll worry about that tomorrow.

02:15:04   So, um, the rings have been helpful for me, even though they've probably also caused

02:15:09   me to exercise at times and maybe I shouldn't, I shouldn't have. Uh, Jon, I, I will stop

02:15:14   talking now. I apologize. What is your regimen to have you worked on this at all? I think

02:15:18   before you, you quit and went full, full Indy, I thought you had said that this was one of

02:15:23   your priorities, but have you had time to make it a priority yet?

02:15:26   I hate working out. I don't like it at all. It's not what I prefer. Uh, in, in my youth,

02:15:32   uh, what I wanted to do was play sports. Uh, and as a side effect of playing sports, you

02:15:37   get exercise, but that's not why I'm doing it. I'm doing it to get better at the sport

02:15:41   and to enjoy the sport and the exercise is just a nice side benefit. Uh, I ran, I played

02:15:47   tennis in high school. I also ran in high school and in running I got terrible, terrible

02:15:52   shin splints, which, uh, kind of ended my running career prematurely at the end of my

02:15:56   high school career. Uh, and surprisingly has stuck with me since the age of 18.

02:16:01   So the ripe old age of 48 or whatever the hell I am now, um, they're still there lurking.

02:16:07   Uh, they, uh, you know, and what it, what it basically does is eliminate running for

02:16:12   me as a possible activity, which I think I probably would have done because even though

02:16:16   running is not, you know, I'm not gonna say it's not that much of a sport, but it's not

02:16:21   like a sport with a ball or a type of skill thing. It's more of a, you know, it's an endurance

02:16:25   thing. It's, it's aerobic activity and stuff like that. But there is a goal like you're

02:16:28   trying to get your times to go better or whatever and not being able to run for exercise kind

02:16:34   of sucks. Uh, but I hate the idea of just doing a workout for the sake of a workout

02:16:39   like exercise with no goal in mind. And so for most of my adult life, I haven't done

02:16:45   any exercise or working out at all, which is probably not a great plan. Um, I also didn't

02:16:53   do much sports stuff because a surprising number of sports things make my shin splints

02:16:57   flare up. Even something as simple as basketball or tennis, even though you're not, don't seem

02:17:01   like you're running that much, you are kind of running a little bit. Uh, and so, and you

02:17:05   know, practically speaking, especially when I was, had my jobby job and doing all my extra

02:17:10   things at the same time, there was just no time, kids, family, work, uh, side jobs, all

02:17:15   that. There's no time to do anything. It's part of my burnout. Part of what, uh, made

02:17:20   me leave my job was I need some time to do something. Right. Uh, so now, uh, in my indie

02:17:28   career, I have carved out some time to do something and what I've latched on is the

02:17:32   thing that I can do, which is not, it's better than nothing, but it's not really complete.

02:17:37   There's still lots of holes in my thing here, but I've latched onto is the thing I can do.

02:17:41   It's kind of like running, but you don't go anywhere. And that's weightlifting because

02:17:46   weightlifting has the same kind of number go up mentality as running or I guess I'm

02:17:50   running it's number go down. Right. But like that's the, that's essentially the game, right?

02:17:54   There is a, there is a gamified component of it. There is progression. Oh, my time is

02:17:58   getting better. I'm lifting heavier weights. It has the advantage that lifting weights

02:18:03   doesn't take as much time because you know, you do a couple of sets of, uh, a handful

02:18:09   of reps, uh, and it's really hard to do, but it's over relatively quickly. And even if

02:18:15   you have like, you know, 30 seconds between them or whatever, like it doesn't take a really

02:18:18   long time. Unlike like if you're doing some kind of aerobic exercise, you might have to

02:18:22   do it for a very long time to get benefit from it. But you know, five sets of five reps

02:18:26   with a weight that's just at your limit that you slowly increase over each week as you

02:18:30   do it. Uh, that does something and it's better than nothing. I still need much more aerobic

02:18:36   exercise that I'm getting. I still am not really doing a complete workout. I should

02:18:40   still really be playing sports, but, uh, it's not really a surprise to me, but maybe surprise

02:18:44   to people who have young children and think, Oh, it'll be so much easier when they're older.

02:18:48   Maybe there's a period in the middle there where that may be true, but once you start

02:18:52   getting towards high school in the end and like the whole rush of college and, uh, you

02:18:57   know, the whole college application process and SATs and driver's licenses and the teen

02:19:02   years in general, there's a big push kind of towards the end of like getting the kids

02:19:07   out of the nest, uh, that involves a surprising amount of parent involvement. So much more

02:19:12   than you had been doing when they were like 12 or 11, kind of at the same level that you

02:19:17   were doing it when they were much younger, only it's much, much worse because they're

02:19:21   full fledged people and the things they're doing are more like have adult annoyances

02:19:26   because now they have to deal with bureaucracies and you have to help them navigate them. And

02:19:30   it's just, anyway, all of that is to say that although I have carved out time, I do the

02:19:36   weightlifting about three times a week. I'll put a link in the show notes to Casey Johnson's

02:19:40   couch to barbell, uh, program, which is loosely what I initially based what I was doing on

02:19:46   and bought a bunch of weights during COVID like so many other people did. And I've upgraded

02:19:49   that weight set a few times and have an adjustable things. Now I don't have a very fancy setup.

02:19:53   I don't have a home gym. I don't have a gym membership. I don't want to go to the gym.

02:19:57   That's another good thing about weightlifting. If you can buy heavy, the right kind of heavy

02:20:01   objects for lifting and you can do a surprising number of exercises in your house. I think

02:20:06   Marco is also doing all his exercises in his house with limited equipment. You don't need,

02:20:11   you don't necessarily need a gym to do stuff. And believe me, the weights on lifting are

02:20:15   not heavy, but they're heavier than nothing. And that is what's important. And for the

02:20:20   few periods of time when I have like, you know, I didn't do any working out when I was

02:20:24   on my long Island vacation that I came back from it. You feel it, you feel you skip a

02:20:28   week and you're like, what happened? I mean, I guess it also doesn't help that I'm, you

02:20:32   know, old and getting close to 50 or whatever. But yeah, like it shows me that something

02:20:38   is happening and I guess what number goes up, you know, you start out lifting this much

02:20:42   weight. And then after a week, you had five more pounds and yet another five more pounds

02:20:45   and yet another five more pounds. Like eventually you get to a limit where I mean, I eventually

02:20:49   I'll get to the limit of my, my weight sets where they can't put on anymore, but I haven't

02:20:53   reached that yet. So that's what I'm doing. It's better than nothing, but it's not enough.

02:21:00   And so my, you know, it's always like, Oh, tomorrow will be better, right? My current

02:21:05   plan is like, okay, or I have one kid in college now and one kid going through that process.

02:21:10   When I have both kids out of the house and in college, then I won't be, which I'm currently

02:21:16   in drive my daughter to school in the morning, picking her up in the afternoon, driving her

02:21:19   to see her friends in the evening, driving her to her driving lessons, driving her to

02:21:24   her driving test, which is scheduled for December. And we'll see like lots of driving people

02:21:28   around. That's not good exercise, but that does occupy a large portion of my day dealing

02:21:33   with, you know, kids activities, driving to get my son at school, driving them back to

02:21:36   school, which I did today. A lot of driving. And so even though I have more time and I

02:21:41   have carved out three days a week to do exercise, and I have tried to pack an efficient kind

02:21:45   of exercise in there. Cause again, I think weightlifting is very time and space efficient.

02:21:51   I would like to do more. And honestly, if I get more time, you know, I don't ever go

02:21:55   to school. I want to do a sport. I don't want to work out like, wait, I don't, I don't enjoy

02:22:01   the weightlifting either, even though it's kind of gamified, would much rather be doing

02:22:04   a sport, but in terms of like the results that I see, like capabilities gained before

02:22:10   you couldn't do X and now you can do X right. Weightlifting does have that going forward.

02:22:15   It's just super boring and I'm not really into it. So I really want to get back into

02:22:18   sports, but tune in in about a year and a half when I have, or you don't have two years.

02:22:24   I don't know what it's going to be when I have both kids in college, assuming I'm, you

02:22:28   know, not destitute and living on the street at that point. I'll hopefully be doing more

02:22:33   exercise. This is how much college will cost for Maggie. You got to put in the clip from

02:22:37   the Simpsons. It's terrifying. I don't even want to think about it. Scholarships kids.

02:22:41   It's just to put a period on the sense from my point of view, to build on what I think

02:22:46   both of you have said, it is a pretty amazing feeling, particularly as someone who has always

02:22:50   associated himself or self identified as a nerd, as someone who is not strong and not

02:22:56   fast for more than about 50 yards. It is extremely cool to get to the point that I need to get

02:23:04   a, that I need to pick up a bigger weight than I did before. And then what's really

02:23:09   amazing is when you have to order a bigger weight than you previously had, you know?

02:23:15   And so like, I don't remember exactly when it was, but Aaron and I both needed, you know,

02:23:20   a set of 40 pound dumbbells relatively recently, a few months ago, I think.

02:23:24   Well, and now I had those, I hated them cause like they're so big and clunky. They, they're

02:23:30   very difficult to, to manipulate. I love them. I love to be able to just, just dial in the

02:23:36   weights. They are kind of big and clunky, but like, I feel like that's part of the challenge

02:23:39   that makes them more harder to deal with. You know what I mean?

02:23:42   I get, I get this, I, because I did, when I was using the smaller weights, I wasn't

02:23:47   using non-adjustable ones, but then I had to, I had to go to the next size up like Casey's

02:23:50   talking about. And at that point I just went adjustable and I don't regret it.

02:23:54   Yeah. I mean one way or another, but the point is just that, you know, when you, when you're

02:23:57   ordering something that facilitates 40 pounds, be that because it's literally 40 pounds or

02:24:02   because it can, you know, add plates or what have you to get to 40 pounds, that's a cool

02:24:06   feeling. And then, you know, eventually we needed a 50 pound dumbbell and we're getting

02:24:09   to the point that we probably need a second 50 pound dumbbell and we didn't get two at

02:24:13   the time because we didn't think we would need a second, but both of us are kind of

02:24:16   getting to that point. We'll, we'll maybe need 50 pound dumbbells. And that's, that's

02:24:20   a really awesome feeling. And it, in, in the same way, like you said, John, that you're

02:24:23   seeing a time go lower and lower as you're running, seeing my weights go up and up is,

02:24:29   is a really rewarding thing that I never had that experience as a kid. So, oh yeah,

02:24:34   neither did I. I mean, John was the most athletic of the three of us probably, but like,

02:24:39   I was never strong, but I was always, uh, yeah, I was, I felt like I was athletic. And

02:24:43   even when I, before I was working out, a good judge is doing crap around the house. Like,

02:24:48   uh, to compare before I was lifting weights and after I was lifting weights, uh, both

02:24:52   of those errors, I had to carry my, uh, downstairs freezer up and down out of my basement. And

02:24:58   it felt similar both times. Like, so even when I am totally doing nothing, I've been

02:25:02   coasting on good genes essentially to not be terrible. Like, I mean, it's, I, I don't

02:25:08   know, you know, maybe I'll feel when I get old eventually, but it's like, I still feel

02:25:12   like I can do all the things I did. I could spend an entire day crawling around a crawl

02:25:15   space and, you know, picking up things in the yard or going up and down on ladders all

02:25:21   day or like whatever. Uh, and I have no problem doing it. The only difference is, is that

02:25:25   if I'm not in my pre-working out times, I would be more sore the next day or these days

02:25:31   probably not sore at all. Um, but I can still do it all. I don't get out of breath doing

02:25:36   things. I, you know, I do need more aerobic exercise, but I'm coasting on good genes a

02:25:40   lot for that. So that needs to be showed up. I like bike riding too, but I feel like I'm

02:25:44   going to die being hit by a car because I do not live in a bike friendly place. So the

02:25:48   risk reward trade-off is not great. So then you're like, you're driving your bike to a

02:25:52   bike trail that feels like weird and wasteful. So aerobic activity is still a problem. A

02:25:57   stationary bike, so boring and I don't have room for one on my house. So it's, it is still

02:26:02   a thing that I'm working on. Uh, but you know, we'll revisit this topic when both my kids

02:26:06   are in college to see how much better I'm doing. Yeah. I mean, ultimately I think the,

02:26:09   the best answer to that is figure out something that you can get in your house. Like whether

02:26:14   it's a stationary bike or elliptical or a row or something, some kind of aerobic machine

02:26:19   that you can tolerate that can fit somewhere somehow in your house. Like in a child's bedroom

02:26:23   who no longer lives with you. Yeah. I mean, honestly, yeah, that's what a lot of people

02:26:27   do. Like there's a reason for that. Um, I think that is the ultimate, the answer. Cause

02:26:31   I, you know, generally like, yeah, weightlifting is great, but you're right. You should also

02:26:35   be doing some kind of aerobic something. Um, I mean, I'm walking the dog every day, but

02:26:39   you know what that's like. I mean, it's like test is technically aerobic. You're going to

02:26:42   walk in a few miles every day and I walk at a brisk pace, but me, yeah, I mean that's

02:26:46   ideally you'd have more than that, but yeah, I mean, and it's, I, I, I, I to Casey like

02:26:53   the, the number of times that somebody has called me strong in my life, I can probably

02:26:57   count on one hand. Um, but they've almost all been like in the last two years. So, and

02:27:05   I remember every single one of them, uh, because that means a lot to me because I was always

02:27:09   the scrawny nerdy kid. You know, I was, I was not very athletic. Um, I actually was

02:27:15   held back in T ball for an extra year. Uh, you couldn't reach the T. Oh, that's brutal.

02:27:21   No, I just kept, uh, yeah. Anyway, so, but like, you know, to, to be, you know, growing

02:27:29   up that way for, and spending most of my life that way. And then, you know, at age 40, you

02:27:34   know, to be able to, to do, to have someone else notice that you're strong, that that

02:27:39   is not the common case in most of my life. I'm not strong either. And my son has zero

02:27:44   ounces of body fat, his entire body and his young. Uh, but when I was doing my weight

02:27:48   workout, when I first started, I encouraged him to, uh, this was over the summer after

02:27:53   his freshman year of college. I encouraged him to do one workout with me and he had one

02:27:56   and he's just like, I'm never doing that again. He could do it. Like, it's not like he couldn't

02:28:00   do what I was doing, but I was at the point where I was about to increase the amount of

02:28:05   weight and he was just like, the next day he was complaining about how sore he was and

02:28:08   everything. So I think he's got college student bod, which is looks fit from the outside.

02:28:13   Again, he's got, you know, six pack abs, not an ounce of fat as an entire body, but he's

02:28:17   weak. He's small and weak. Yeah. And the problem, the problem is once your metabolism slows

02:28:22   down and you, and you get a little older, then if that becomes much harder. Yeah. I

02:28:26   said, take a look at my midsection. This is your future. So.

02:28:31   (laughing)

02:28:33   (beeping)