564: Always Get the Biggest Pizza


00:00:00   It's funny, we just talked last night to do to record our next member special and so I spent last night talking to you guys

00:00:06   I spent you know a good chunk of today editing that conversation

00:00:11   Finish editing that conversation and now oh we're back talking again, and then I'll spend most of tomorrow morning editing this conversation

00:00:18   Good thing good thing. I really like you guys then you won't have to hear from us again until next week

00:00:25   Times that and actually that's very apropos because you and I were together

00:00:30   Just a week ago actually a week ago today wasn't not it was Wednesday that we that we got that we got into Manhattan

00:00:37   And we're gonna talk about that at length on the after show and here's what we're gonna do

00:00:41   We're gonna do a what we in the biz like to call a teaser

00:00:44   In the after show I can explain how in the span of an hour and a half

00:00:47   I murdered two of Marco's vehicles and that's your teaser for the after show. Don't skip. I know there's chapters

00:00:54   Don't skip you got to earn it. You got to earn it all right

00:00:56   You got to sit through all this tech BS in the meantime

00:00:59   Let's start with some follow-up and we have some follow-up with regard to our prior member special about other people's code

00:01:08   Which by the way those of you who reached out and said?

00:01:11   Really anything, but you know we heard a lot of really really kind words about that

00:01:15   And I don't think we mentioned on the show that that was very kind of you to take your time and say so so thank you

00:01:20   But we have a related piece of optional homework John. Can you tell us about this, please? Yeah, it's kind of timely

00:01:26   I mean the thing we're talking about is a members special that we did we're talked about me working on the

00:01:32   CMS that runs ATP that Marco originally wrote

00:01:34   And it was partially framed as look at me playing with PHP, but also it was about other people's code

00:01:41   And there is a great talk about other people's code that I happen to see in YouTube by Laura Savino

00:01:47   And I posted about it a mastodon this week, and we'll put a link to it in the show notes

00:01:50   If you want to see a vastly expanded and much more professional and non PHP focused example of that

00:01:56   Lots of good information in there a lot of it resonated with me after my long career editing other people's code

00:02:03   excellent all right and then throwback to ATP

00:02:08   541 we were talking about solid-state cooling. I think it was in the context of follow-up

00:02:14   It doesn't really matter, but we were talking about solid-state cooling and there was a company that I don't remember if it's the name

00:02:19   It's the floor FR o re is name of the company and they make a product called air jet which is a physically very very very

00:02:26   Thin apparently solid-state not a fan

00:02:29   but a thing that moves air and there was an article in the verge week or two ago where in the

00:02:35   Ferrari or whatever you call them people the the air jet people

00:02:38   retrofit a

00:02:41   MacBook air and I mean it was a pretty involved pretty kind of gross retrofit, but they put a series of these

00:02:48   These fans in there and wouldn't you know when you put active cooling in a computer it actually performs way better who'da thunk it

00:02:55   Yeah

00:02:56   and this is not a great demo for them because

00:02:58   It was very invasive to the point where they had to mill out part of the case because obviously the MacBook air is not designed

00:03:04   To have active cooling in it so they had to make a lot of room

00:03:06   They removed a lot of parts from the computer and milled out the case and put their little air jet things in there

00:03:11   They look kind of like really flat like PCMC a cards, but of course inside them inside

00:03:18   There are these little tiny little tiny mechanical like micro level things that swish the air out of them and they go whooshing noise

00:03:25   It's kind of like a fan, but with nothing rotating

00:03:27   They're weird

00:03:29   But I've seen people take earlier

00:03:32   iterations of the like thing was the m1 MacBook Air and just put like better passive cooling in not active cooling but just like a

00:03:40   Better heat sink they also put a better heat sink of this by the way

00:03:42   But if you just put a better heat sink and better thermal paste you can also get some mileage out of it

00:03:47   I'm still I mean, I guess they're doing this as a you know

00:03:51   Hey a marketing stunt for their product like look, you know Apple your computers could be better if you bought these things from us

00:03:57   Wouldn't that be great?

00:03:59   I

00:04:00   Kind of hope that Apple doesn't put these things in the MacBook Air because I like having the low-end laptop not have a fan at all

00:04:08   despite the thermal throttling and

00:04:10   As Casey point out like yeah, if you put active cooling in a machine that didn't have it it thermal throttles a lot less

00:04:16   But I feel like that's the that's the trade-off of this thing. It's totally silent. There's no fan whatsoever

00:04:20   It will also thermal throttle sometimes and that is a trade-off

00:04:23   I think should that should be in the product line for people who want it

00:04:27   I mean that same trade-off exists in the 14-inch MacBook Pro, right Casey

00:04:30   You know the amount the the amount of trash that you've given me about my 14-inch apparently utterly crippled MacBook Pro is

00:04:40   approaching the amount of trash I've given you about your well, I was going to use a

00:04:44   Descriptive term that's not kind about your car

00:04:47   But as we'll learn later on here's another teaser folks as we'll learn later on

00:04:51   I have decided to I've sworn off making fun of your car. I'm not doing it any minute

00:04:55   So I like to stand out with a gigantic bread box Volvo you drive around it

00:04:59   It's parked in your driveway and you drive it frequently I think no, I don't try I mean I do drive it maybe

00:05:08   Once a week at most that's pretty quick for a car that you're saying is not yours. I don't know. It's it's very

00:05:14   I'd say it's once a month is a better description. But anyways, it doesn't matter. It's a pretty car to that later

00:05:20   It's a pretty car. I don't care what you two say

00:05:23   I think the Volvo I genuinely think the Volvo is pretty car and granted I'm biased

00:05:26   I have priors if you will to use a Merlin ISM, but I think I really think it's pretty but that's well

00:05:31   Well again, we'll bigger about that later

00:05:33   And like, you know to be clear about like the thermal throttling what's interesting about this is that you even if you jump through

00:05:41   you know substantial hoops to add a

00:05:43   Pretty complicated cooling setup to a MacBook Air. Yes, it makes it faster because it doesn't throttle anymore

00:05:50   But it doesn't make it a ton faster. Yeah, that's fair and and it's you know

00:05:54   The same thing with you know, the difference between the fortune and 16 inch, you know, m3 max MacBook Pros

00:05:58   It's not a big difference

00:06:00   So even when these chips throttle

00:06:02   It's not like you know

00:06:04   Like the olden days of like the original the very first generation MacBook Air that thermal throttled a lot severely all the time

00:06:09   It's nothing like that. Like when we say thermal throttling, you know, it's you know

00:06:14   Look iPads and iPhones do it too and no one ever says anything because it matters so little in most in most ways

00:06:21   That's how this is like MacBook Air's, you know

00:06:24   Ever since they went to the Apple silicon generation where they went totally fanless

00:06:27   I think they've always throttled just it took a while before you get there and even then what you see is is maybe you know

00:06:34   Five or ten percent slower on long sustained loads then then a you know something with a fan. It's not a huge difference

00:06:41   It isn't like, you know half as fast or a quarter as fast. It's it's a very small difference

00:06:46   and so if anything it speaks to

00:06:48   How little anything like this would be necessary in a product like the MacBook Air that it really it is doing just fine

00:06:55   Without any fan at all and for the vast majority of workloads

00:06:58   not only does nobody even notice for the vast majority of workloads, but I

00:07:02   Would even say there isn't even a difference in the vast majority of workloads that you have to be doing some

00:07:08   Fairly specific things before you're gonna see these these chips throttle and even when they do the performance difference is not massive

00:07:15   So this is not like the thermal throttling we make a big deal of it on tech podcast because it is a difference and it

00:07:21   Is something worth knowing if you have one of those workloads, but in reality in almost all usage

00:07:27   It is totally not a thing and you shouldn't worry about it at all and it certainly doesn't need hardware modification to take care of

00:07:34   There's also the question of the power draw of these things I was looking the article that we're gonna link in the notes

00:07:39   I don't think they say the power draw but I thought I remember someone saying they were taking like five watts or something

00:07:43   Which is a lot like that's how much like the SOC takes but I don't know if that was accurate

00:07:47   I might just be misremembering

00:07:48   I also don't know how how much power like the fans take in Apple's laptops that have fans

00:07:53   but anyway, if this company is actually going to pitch Apple on

00:07:57   Licensing their technology for use in let's say a future 14 inch or something

00:08:02   They have a long way to go because they have to show not only does it cool things by blowing air

00:08:07   But you know, can it be as quiet or as pleasantly quiet as the existing weird asymmetrical fan things?

00:08:13   How much power does it draw? How much cost is it add? How much space does it take up?

00:08:17   Yeah, it's a long way to go even like how many can they even supply like can't like, you know

00:08:22   This is a small startup company

00:08:23   Like can they even make enough to be a component of the next MacBook Pro or MacBook Air? Probably not

00:08:28   Well if Apple gives them a few billion dollars they can

00:08:31   It's the same way everybody makes enough of anything Apple gives them a lot of money and sometimes buys a lot of machines for them

00:08:37   Yep, that's what it is

00:08:39   Alright moving on Zed writes that key cap

00:08:42   replacements are free at the Apple Store as long as the mechanism below the key cap is functioning and parts are still available to order if

00:08:48   You have a vintage Mac go to a store that opened before your Mac became vintage and it hasn't been remodeled since then

00:08:54   That's a tall order, but I'll go with it and odds are they will still have at least some of the key caps left

00:08:58   This is a nice thing this later when we talk about one of the main topics this may come up

00:09:04   But I feel like Apple should advertise this more if it is true, which you know

00:09:08   Multiple people have worked at Apple stores said yeah

00:09:09   We we've got key caps and doesn't matter if your thing is under warranty

00:09:12   Doesn't matter how old it is if you come in you've got a damaged key cap

00:09:16   It's basically just a cosmetic issue that the switch underneath works fine

00:09:19   We'll just take it in the back

00:09:21   See if we have one spare snap it in and give it to you and we've all had experiences like that at the Apple Store

00:09:26   We're we what we assume is like someone's discretionary

00:09:29   You know nicety like they'll do something for us that they don't have to do then maybe it's not official policy

00:09:34   But it's just nice like they'll swap something for you or give you a replacement because they happen to have one and this

00:09:41   Builds brand loyalty and if you know if the key cap repressant really is a policy Apple should talk about it more if it's not

00:09:48   A policy maybe they just want it to be like the secret menu it in and out

00:09:50   We're like, oh what you don't know if you can go to the Apple Store

00:09:52   You can get new key caps because I don't think a lot of people know this you see you see people with laptops with not

00:09:58   Just the ones where they where the people's fingers wear through the key caps

00:10:00   But just key caps that are weird or broken or have something wrong with them or some sort of cosmetic damage

00:10:05   Have you told them hey, you can just take that to the Apple Store and they'll just give you one like well

00:10:09   I bet they'll charge me for it. Well, it's no it's free. Oh, I mines not under warranty like

00:10:13   People don't know and it will make them happier if they have it done now that I know this if I have a key cap

00:10:18   Problem, I'm definitely into that

00:10:19   I wish I could have done that for my Apple extended to that I dropped my pocket knife onto and it

00:10:23   Put a big gash in the it was the f5 key. It's very disappointing to me

00:10:27   I wish I could have just brought the two Apple store, but they didn't exist

00:10:30   Well, but if you can find one that hasn't been remodeled since 1975 or whatever, maybe they'll have one of those in the back

00:10:36   Apple extended to 1990 no

00:10:39   1989-87 that's what I said

00:10:46   What do you said, you know you dropped it on the keyboard I assumed that there was going to be you know

00:10:51   Like the e key or something like that, but no it was the commonly pressed f5

00:10:55   Well, it was on it was like the shelving units were over like where my computer desk was and the pocket knife was on the shelf

00:11:01   And it tumbled off. So just yeah

00:11:03   I think I think it just had like the flathead screwdriver part out

00:11:07   So didn't have like the blade out or anything, but the flathead screwdriver, you know falling from a height

00:11:11   And landing just right on the key cap of the f5 key really gouged it. I'm so sorry

00:11:15   Alright moving along speaking of Apple stores

00:11:19   Apparently they'll price match this was broken or or discussed at least on macworld.com

00:11:25   In apparently up to two weeks from the date you received your device it will price match against and this is the key any

00:11:32   Authorized Apple reseller and the person who wrote this article who I don't have their name in front of me apparently did it over the phone

00:11:39   So they just refunded them over the phone, which is kind of cool

00:11:42   So yeah, that's a thing. I didn't know that either again if you would think that lots of stores advertising

00:11:48   They're advertised their price match to get you to shop there. You would think Apple would advertise this

00:11:51   Maybe they don't want to give people free money

00:11:54   but I think sometimes people do feel more comfortable buying from the Apple store than having to

00:12:00   Battle everyone and Best Buy to try to get someone to you know, uncage your Apple product for you or whatever

00:12:06   and by the way Apple extended to

00:12:08   1990 I was close you were close

00:12:12   All right and continuing right along

00:12:14   Abe white writes in episode 562 a listener asked about photographing their kids art

00:12:20   My latest side project was making kid art an app to solve that exact problem for myself and only myself as it sits unnoticed

00:12:26   You know, this is my kind of self-promotion its self-promotion wrapped in self-deprecation

00:12:32   This is huge Casey energy

00:12:34   Anyway, Abe continues it has some niceties like organizing about artists in age and it can use the vision framework to autocrop very cool

00:12:40   This is basically a Casey app. This is like it's a it's a bespoke app that deals with photos and children in a way

00:12:46   That is like exactly what one person needed

00:12:50   You're you're not wrong. I can't find the lie. So Abe continues

00:12:55   It has some niceties like organizing by artist age

00:12:57   It can use the vision framework to autocrop, but most importantly it stores in your photos library

00:13:00   So you're never locked into the app and we will put a link in the show notes

00:13:03   This sounds really good and I gotta give this a shot

00:13:07   John tell me about Thunderbolt 5 and 80 versus 120 gigabits per second. Yeah, this is what happens something system

00:13:14   It's too long that Thunderbolt 5 thing had been the show notes for weeks and weeks maybe multiple months

00:13:19   I don't remember how long it was there, but one part of it talked about this

00:13:22   bandwidth boost mode where you get 120 gigabits per second for display purposes and

00:13:29   As soon as I saw the explanation I realized I had known this in the past but forgot

00:13:32   How does it get 120 gigabits per second when normally it's 18 and 80?

00:13:37   Only a gig of a second and 80 is twice what Thunderbolt 4 is so that's already great

00:13:42   Thunderbolt 5 double the speed of Thunderbolt 4 thumbs up. Where's the 120 come from?

00:13:46   Well, it's just four lanes of 40 and they just changed the direction of one of the lanes

00:13:49   Like it's rush hour on a bridge or something. So it's

00:13:52   Three lanes of 40 in one direction for 120 and only 40 in the other direction

00:13:58   So when it's in the mode where you're driving a display if you want more bandwidth

00:14:01   They just send you know, three out of the four lanes in a single direction. That is the explanation

00:14:06   Excellent. No, that was easy with regard to ECC RAM at this point friend of the show Joe Lyon writes after reviewing the LPD

00:14:15   Dr. Five data sheets

00:14:16   I am happy to see that when link ECC is enabled the overall bandwidth or throughput is not impacted

00:14:21   And this is because the regular data is transferred on the standard data

00:14:25   I/O pins but the ECC data transmitted is transmitted on his pin that is not normally used during the write and read accesses

00:14:32   There's a slight penalty in latencies when ECC is enabled because the extra time required to calculate the ECC data same as in the quote-unquote

00:14:38   Sideband system level ECC from the Xeon days, but at least you're not taking memory bandwidth hit when ECC is enabled

00:14:44   Also somewhat interesting is that link ECC can be enabled separately for write and read accesses

00:14:50   So a controller could choose to disable link ECC for writing data to DRAM but enable it for reading data from the DRAM and vice-versa

00:14:55   Again how the m3 chip actually chooses to use these features is unknown to the outside world unless Apple decides to tell us

00:15:01   kind of disappointed nobody from Apple wrote in to tell us because this is you know,

00:15:05   We're so close to just getting at the truth because we now know in the abstract. Alright, so LPD dr5. It's got the array

00:15:11   Some something like array ECC inside it for correcting areas inside the chip and it could in theory use link

00:15:18   ECC for the very short journey from the RAM chips to the the the actual m3 or whatever processor

00:15:24   We don't know if it does that and apparently there's not a really easy way to tell

00:15:29   So someone from Apple should just tell us I use only KCC all the time some of the time on reads on writes every other

00:15:34   Read every other write only on Wednesdays

00:15:36   Inquiring minds want to know and there's apparently John and Joe Lyon. So the two of them would like to know

00:15:44   All right, Apple. He was last week established or excuse me announced expanded partnership with Amcor

00:15:51   Am kor for advanced silicon packaging in the US

00:15:54   This is an Apple press release and I will read from there Apple will be the first and largest customer of the new Amcor

00:16:00   manufacturing packaging facility being developed in Peoria, Arizona

00:16:03   Amcor will package Apple silicon produced at the nearby TSMC fab where Apple is also the largest customer

00:16:10   So basically when you have a gazillion dollars or hoe gillion dollars like you were saying earlier John then things can happen turns out

00:16:16   Yeah, this is vaguely related to our recent discussions of silicon packaging. They talk about advanced packaging this that the other thing

00:16:22   They say Apple silicon, but I'm assuming

00:16:25   When they say advanced packaging they just mean yes stuff is Apple or stuff that Apple is already doing elsewhere and not any of the

00:16:32   Newer type of things that Apple isn't currently doing that we were discussing and when they say Apple silicon

00:16:37   Maybe they're making like h2 chips for the new headphones or something. Like this is years in the future

00:16:42   I'm not entirely sure that they're gonna be manufacturing, you know

00:16:46   weird chiplet based m4 extreme chips in Arizona, but baby steps getting any amount of

00:16:55   And if anything remotely close to cutting-edge silicon fabrication in this country is great

00:17:01   Intel is working on that Intel recently got some money from the US government to help with that

00:17:07   TSMC is not a US company but having them in the US

00:17:11   And trying to sort of build the expertise in our country is that part of one of the biggest problems is not that it's expensive

00:17:17   To do here or whatever. It's that we don't have people who can work in those factories

00:17:22   So it's kind of a a personnel surprise supplier problem

00:17:25   But you can solve that chicken and egg dilemma with lots of money if you build a giant factory and say we're hiring a bunch

00:17:30   Of people hopefully they'll motivate people to learn this trade and start working in those

00:17:35   Factories which are presumably offer some, you know good high paying jobs because this is cutting-edge stuff

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00:19:44   So even though

00:19:49   You have their Apple has infinite money. There are some things they cannot do

00:19:55   and apparently what they cannot do is generate or create a 5g a custom spoke 5g modem because allegedly

00:20:02   They are they're canning that process and they are no longer working toward making their own 5g modem

00:20:10   Maybe there's conflicting reports here. So

00:20:13   Reading from Mac rumors according to the operator of the news aggregator account

00:20:17   YEUX 1 1 2 2 the well-known YEUX 1 1 2 2

00:20:22   The neighbor YU 10. Yeah, probably who knows?

00:20:26   supply chain sources related to Apple's 5g modem departments claim that the company's attempts to develop its own modem have failed so far which I

00:20:33   Think we knew and that Apple's in the process of winding down its years-long investment in the project separately

00:20:38   The leaker known as tech Reeve today said that they heard similar reports from a Japanese supply chain source

00:20:43   This is pretty loosely sourced. Like I don't know how much to make of this and it sounds like Marco you are not buying it

00:20:49   I'm not I mean, so

00:20:51   There's there's a lot of words in here that matter. So keep in mind number one supply chain sources

00:20:58   From what we've heard it is pretty clear that Apple is trying to build a modem

00:21:04   there's a lot of value for them to build their modem as we've talked about whenever this rumor comes up like

00:21:07   you know, the the cellular modem and a phone is a is a pretty large and pretty complex and

00:21:12   Substantial chip that's in there

00:21:14   And so if they can do their own not only does that you know

00:21:17   Potentially give them a lot of control over how it's done and maybe they can do better than Qualcomm

00:21:22   Maybe not who knows but you know, they're they're certainly gonna try. I mean keep in mind, you know

00:21:26   There was a time when it was considered outrageous that Apple would ever make chips better than Intel for their CPUs

00:21:33   But here we are

00:21:33   I think it's possible for them to do a better job if they you know

00:21:36   If they have the talent and the resources and everything

00:21:39   but anyway

00:21:39   It also gives me the ability to possibly integrate it into the package of the main chip and that could have all sorts of benefits

00:21:46   For you know things like efficiency certainly space inside the devices and of course costs that you know

00:21:52   They so there's a lot of motivation for them to do this and also, you know

00:21:56   The whole Tim Cook doctrine of wanting to control the key technologies behind your products

00:22:00   The sub modem is a key technology behind their most important product

00:22:03   So it makes sense why they want to do this and that's why they've been

00:22:07   You know apparently spending a lot of money and they've made some acquisitions in this area some pretty big ones

00:22:12   You know allegedly they're they're the big thing

00:22:14   So when we hear rumor that says supply chain sources say that they're just gonna bail out on making a 5g modem

00:22:22   What that probably means what we've heard so far in recent weeks and months is that?

00:22:27   Apple's cell modem project is behind schedule and it missed whatever target they had said initially like they wanted it done by

00:22:35   You know time X apparently they they have missed that target and so they're gonna you know, keep working on it

00:22:41   Well supply chain sources if Apple was talking to them and saying hey

00:22:46   We're gonna maybe need you to build a whole bunch of these for us or we're gonna we're gonna need all these parts to make

00:22:50   These or whatever, you know, whatever goes into it. We're gonna need these for say 2025 and if Apple missed their target

00:22:57   They don't need those for 2025 anymore. And so the supply chain sources might be told something like scrap that

00:23:03   That doesn't mean Apple's not making a modem. That just means Apple's not making that modem at that time

00:23:10   Yeah, so and and keep in mind the supply chain also

00:23:13   There's a lot of there's a lot of you know parties in in the industry

00:23:18   Who really want Apple not to be making a modem and who would possibly benefit from Apple not making a modem?

00:23:24   Like for instance their current modem supplier

00:23:27   So, you know, there's when when people want the rumor to be true or they want they want to be sure like a lot of times

00:23:34   You know it spreads

00:23:36   Through human nature or malice or you know, usually just human nature and so I would take this with a grain of salt

00:23:43   there is still tons of reason for Apple to make a sub modem and

00:23:46   And I believe I think as Jason pointed out an upgrade this week if Apple actually actually can this whole project

00:23:53   They would probably be laying off like hundreds of people like it would be it would you would feel it in other ways

00:23:59   Not just somebody on Twitter or whatever like it you would you would feel it in big ways

00:24:04   So I bet Apple is very much still working on a modem

00:24:08   It just isn't ready yet

00:24:09   And that means they're not ready to manufacture it yet

00:24:12   And so the supply chain was probably told hey that thing we told you we wanted for next year. We don't need it anymore

00:24:16   Alright, and if that's the case is a real

00:24:19   Trailing indicator considering on past episodes we discussed the the actually fairly old story that Apple signed another

00:24:27   Long multi-year dear with Qualcomm. You don't do that if you got your own modem chip

00:24:31   See, you know, there you have an expectation of and it's many it's not like just like oh, well, we'll use Qualcomm for next year

00:24:36   I think it was like a three-year deal four-year deal or whatever

00:24:39   Yeah, but that's that's not many years like, you know, if it was a 15 year deal, I'd say oh boy

00:24:43   Maybe they're not doing it

00:24:44   But if it's it's only a few years that probably just means they need a few more years to finish theirs

00:24:49   I know but I give the idea if this supply chain is saying this now because they sort of canceled their orders for whatever as

00:24:55   Soon as that deal was made they're like, well, I guess they're not I guess they're gonna be any Apple 5g modems next year

00:25:01   Because they just signed a three-year deal. Oh come on. Yeah, I mean it's possible that like the rumors have always been like

00:25:07   The the first year they have one of these say they eventually, you know succeed and make one

00:25:12   It's not like they're gonna put it in the flagship iPhone immediately

00:25:15   Even back when they did the Intel modems in like half the iPhones. That was not a great experience

00:25:20   So the rumors are like that

00:25:22   They would put the first Apple modem chip and like the iPhone SE 4 or something like some lower volume

00:25:28   Not as big a deal thing and it would be a slow roll out over many years

00:25:32   So, you know if they haven't canceled the car project

00:25:34   They're sure as hell not canceling the cell modem project because it is really important for them to do this

00:25:38   They did buy the Intel's business

00:25:41   I and honestly considering they make so many other things not just the SOC

00:25:46   But as you know, I mentioned before like the H chip the r1 chip like they're good at making silicon

00:25:51   Obviously cell radio stuff is different in that first

00:25:55   You've got the radio part of it which is not just you know digital logic, but as analog radio technology

00:26:00   So I understand that's a whole lot of can of worms

00:26:02   But Apple has lots already lots of this the right talent and experience to get this done. And as you said Marco

00:26:08   Cellphones the important part of cell phones is the cell modem and hey if they put it in the SOC

00:26:13   Maybe just maybe it could appear in a Mac. Mm-hmm

00:26:18   You know on the Mac, they really don't have enough room to put it anywhere

00:26:22   Whenever you bring this up people say bring up the thing of like Oh Qualcomm chargers are percentage of purchase price

00:26:27   We went through this many years ago around in circles in this I believe the resolution of this was that

00:26:32   Cost is not the reason not

00:26:35   Not a reasonable reason for them to keep it out of the MacBooks because it's not a percentage of the price like oh I fit

00:26:40   By a $7,000 MacBook. I have to play Qualcomm $700 because they get 10% of the purchase price or something

00:26:45   When that was true, even if it is still true

00:26:48   But when it was true, I believe the upshot was that there's a limit and pretty much everything Apple sells would be at that limit

00:26:54   So it's not like it goes up and up forever and it's just a percentage of the price

00:26:57   And also we have no idea what kind of deal Apple has with Qualcomm

00:27:01   Like when they make these multi-year deals with Qualcomm, we don't know all the terms Apple buys a lot of modem chips

00:27:06   Presumably they can get fairly favorable terms

00:27:08   But yeah cost when you're making it yourself

00:27:10   You don't have to pay make a deal with yourself and pay yourself weird profit margins or whatever

00:27:15   So it'll be cheaper and better for Apple to have its own chips. They are almost certainly continuing this process

00:27:21   But it is possible that they've said you know what we plan to make a 5g modem and at this point

00:27:26   We blew it by the time because the lead times on these are so long

00:27:30   They could know that like look by the time we're done. We need to have a 6g modem

00:27:35   So the 6g modem project that we've had running for several years now

00:27:38   That's our new main focus take everybody off the 5g modem put them on the 6g modem

00:27:43   Which of course will also be able to do 5g because it has to so that could be going on

00:27:48   But you know again product Titan has been rebooted a million times and that's something we're not even sure Apple should ever make

00:27:52   Apple should definitely make a cell modem

00:27:55   Yeah, so they're apparently doing 6g

00:27:57   That's the thing and Mac rumors reports Apple's work on implementing 6g cellular cellular connectivity

00:28:02   This devices appears to be ramping up according to Mark Gurman 6g is not expected to emerge on consumer devices until around

00:28:08   2030 for goodness sakes that's not that long from now

00:28:12   It's like the calendar your number keeps going up

00:28:15   As long as I'm still here for it. That's all I care about but yeah, it's yikes

00:28:19   I mean that's not yeah, I just feel like that's both forever away and tomorrow

00:28:24   No, but that's neither here nor there long long lead times on silicon

00:28:27   but yeah, the 6g obviously isn't you know, it's dependent on whatever the you know for us the

00:28:32   Country-wide rollout of 6g if it goes as well as 5g might be well

00:28:40   indeed John

00:28:42   Dare I ask what's going on with your window snapping window dragging bug? What's the lead?

00:28:47   Oh, this has been in the notes so long. I have to update it

00:28:49   This is beta for but beta 5 came out like what two days ago or something

00:28:52   Yeah, this is Mac OS 4 no one else is keeping up with the Mac OS 8 Mac OS 14.2 beta

00:28:57   And why do I keep installing?

00:28:59   the new Mac OS betas because I'm always looking to see if my window dragging bug has been fixed and

00:29:04   for the past couple of betas

00:29:06   So here here's the deal I

00:29:10   first of all

00:29:11   The feedback item one of my feedback items had a status update that seemed to indicate that the fix was in some build

00:29:17   I figure where the details were. It wasn't a reply. It wasn't a comment but up in the header part of the feedback

00:29:21   It says like fix possibly implemented in build blah blah blah

00:29:24   I haven't gotten that thing that you get sometimes which says we believe this is fixed

00:29:28   Please verify it or your bug will be closed blah blah blah

00:29:30   I haven't gotten that on it yet, but I did get that status update and I've been loading the you know

00:29:35   The 14.2 betas and testing them out and my reproduction on my specific computer setup with all of my hardware

00:29:42   Was very straightforward. You just log into users open 25 text edit windows drag stick. It's real easy to do. It's not subtle

00:29:49   It's not like you have to look for it real hard. I have plenty of videos doing it and

00:29:53   by that yardstick my window dragging bug is fixed in the

00:29:57   2.2 beta right because if you open 25 windows and drag a sticky, it's fine. Nothing wrong with it

00:30:03   But now I know too much. Oh now I know

00:30:06   That like well, I know that

00:30:08   as you open more windows

00:30:11   things get worse

00:30:13   so I

00:30:15   Mean, I guess I'm kind of like, you know, what I would think is that computer is powerful

00:30:20   The computer is powerful we have today with hardware

00:30:22   Compositing and the window manager and you know

00:30:26   What am I asking you to do move an opaque rectangle around on top of a bunch of opaque rectangles?

00:30:30   It should be perfect all the time. Shouldn't it like there should be no

00:30:34   Degradation as I open more windows. I'm not running out of RAM. The CPU isn't pegged. The GPU isn't pegged like nothing is stressed

00:30:42   Nothing is happening on the system. Nothing is running. They're just empty white opaque windows and they're just

00:30:50   Rectangles and I just want to be able to drag one around should it matter if there's a hundred?

00:30:55   Or 200 and the answer in Mac OS is it still does in 14.2 if you open

00:31:01   200 windows it's laggy when you're dragging that little sticky window around than it is when you have when you have 25, right?

00:31:09   You know and you can hold on the option key to stop the window snapping thing from going but like no way

00:31:14   Hold on. What's your baseline from like from previous versions of Mac OS before this bug was there?

00:31:20   That's the question because before you weren't looking I wasn't looking for this

00:31:23   It's like I just I never noticed anything having to do with window dragging ever since quartz extreme in like whatever that was

00:31:28   Mac OS 10.4 or 5 or whatever

00:31:31   Tiger or leopard or something whatever quartz extreme came out

00:31:34   It was the thing where they did GPU accelerated compositing as soon as they did that

00:31:38   Winter dragon was fine, right and when we talk about compositing and in the original versions of Mac OS 10

00:31:43   When you had to draw a window with its like fuzzy drop shadow

00:31:46   They had to calculate the transparency of okay. We're laying a drop shadow over what's behind it now

00:31:51   What's behind it and blend that together with whatever the color?

00:31:53   You know gray is at that point with that transparency level and they would do that on the on the CPU

00:31:59   Every single pixel they do the math and go to the CPU

00:32:02   It's okay now take this pixel blend over that one. Tell me the result take this place

00:32:04   I'm going over that one time incredibly slow

00:32:06   Right once they moved it onto the GPU which is designed to do that and they can do it much faster and in parallel

00:32:12   Window dragon was like oh the problem solved I can drag the window around it never lags behind

00:32:18   So I guess I window resizing which has to do with the contents on it, but just dragging that's done by the Windows Server

00:32:22   The application doesn't even know that it's happening, right?

00:32:24   It's never been a problem only when I started encountering this bug which was obviously noticeable to anybody

00:32:30   Then I start even noticing window dragging and now that I know that apparently, you know, Mac OS 13 and 14

00:32:37   Have this thing where as you open more windows window dragging gets crappier. I'm always looking for

00:32:41   Alright, well now what does it take to get crappy?

00:32:44   How many windows do I need to open for me to notice that it's crappy and what I mean by crappy is you'll grab the

00:32:50   title bar and you'll move the window around and the the

00:32:54   Pointer will not stay on the title bar as you move the window around obviously when I had the bug if you look at my videos

00:32:59   I can pull the pointer three inches off that title bar in slow motion

00:33:04   And I can watch the stickies window move across the screen real slowly trying to catch up with my pointer and my pointer is moving

00:33:09   Real slow and it's like catch up with me sticky. You can catch me catch up with me, right?

00:33:13   super bad, right

00:33:15   Now on fourteen point two if I open two hundred windows and I move it around I can get the pointer

00:33:20   Maybe a centimeter off the title bar before but it catches up real fast

00:33:23   You know what I mean?

00:33:24   But there's a difference between when I have two hundred window and when I have one hundred when I have twenty five, right?

00:33:29   There's a difference. I don't understand what the difference is

00:33:33   But anyway, I'm gonna close this bug as fixed once fourteen point two comes out assuming

00:33:37   Oh used to work like this because hey the bug was twenty five windows opened

00:33:40   It looks like molasses that doesn't happen anymore twenty five. It's

00:33:43   It's as good with twenty fives. It is with zero, right? It's just it is what it is

00:33:48   But now I have this little bug in my head about but why is it not?

00:33:54   Perfect, like what what is it? That's not you know

00:33:59   What would it take because I feel like it like in a video game type thing if you had like a cursor and like, you know

00:34:04   Sometimes they make like fake operating systems for fake computers and video games, right?

00:34:07   If they did this in a game engine you couldn't get the pointer to stray from the pixel

00:34:13   It was on when you held down the mouse button

00:34:14   You know what?

00:34:15   I mean like you grab the title bar you hold down the mouse button you move your mouse

00:34:18   That pointer would never move from the title bar but on the Mac because the cursor is controlled by something that's different than the window

00:34:24   Server the cursor updates and it moves however, if your mouse moves and the window service is like wait

00:34:29   Oh the cursor it looks like the cursor moved. I have to redraw the window underneath it and

00:34:33   To the degree that they lag behind each other. That's where you get separation. So I'll continue to watch this but I am excited to learn that

00:34:41   my

00:34:42   long national nightmare of

00:34:44   Loggy window dragging will be gone in 14.2 so I can concentrate all my energy on our network changed

00:34:50   Which continues to plague people just today

00:34:54   I retweeted somebody who couldn't update an extension in Visual Studio why because Visual Studio was a video studio code

00:35:00   It just said yeah VS code Visual Studio code uses chromium under the covers and they tried to do something involving

00:35:05   Extensions and it just failed and looked in the output and then well lo and behold

00:35:09   Why did it fail or a network changed over and over again?

00:35:11   I'm seeing it semi frequently now and it's one of those things. I forget the um, the term for it

00:35:18   But once you're aware of it, you know, you see it all the time all of a sudden

00:35:21   Stuff doesn't work like it's a lot of door this I don't use Chrome. Yes, you do

00:35:25   You don't know you're using chromium, but it's under everything now. Yep

00:35:29   Yeah, I'm seeing this way more frequently recently and I am not loving it. So thanks John. I appreciate I didn't make it happen

00:35:37   I've still never seen it. I don't really use chrome based things much at all

00:35:42   Like as far as I can tell I've never seen it. I mean you're using slack

00:35:46   Cross chromium base, isn't it? Is it I believe so

00:35:49   I thought so and I might have that wrong but I sure that most people are sending error message from discord slack may just be

00:35:53   Eating those errors this card will throw up a dialogue to let you know what it is

00:35:56   But you know if like like Gmail I said before if the app you're using is good about retrying

00:36:02   You it just might be hidden from you that it's making HTTP requests

00:36:05   They're failing and it just retries them and because it's all happening behind the scenes

00:36:08   You never notice it but especially if there's no place you can look at an error console or something. You don't know that it's happening

00:36:13   But honestly, that's preferable if vs code was better about retrying this person wouldn't have had that problem. But you know

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00:38:30   Let's talk about

00:38:36   What we're gonna do another tease apparently for the after show

00:38:39   Why was it and how was it possible that I for me to destroy two of Marco's vehicles in the span of 30 minutes?

00:38:46   Well, maybe 90 minutes, whatever it was. Well, that's because Marco and I were both in Manhattan

00:38:51   basically a week ago and we were there for the vision Pro developer lab and

00:38:57   I would like to at this time tell you everything I that Marco and I are allowed to tell you about the vision Pro lab

00:39:03   So buckle up wait, you just did I just shoot you're right. I just did. All right, that's all we got

00:39:08   We attended a lab. That is all we are allowed to say about it

00:39:11   I think you were telling me for that like you can't even characterize it. No. Yeah. Oh, I can't tell you that the lab

00:39:18   Well, can you just tell me if it was good or bad? Oh, that would be characterizing it and you're not to do that either

00:39:22   So a lab was attended. Yes. Yep. A lab was attended. So there we go. I would like to levy a brief complaint

00:39:29   Marco and I were trying to rendezvous at the hotel. We were staying at Manhattan and

00:39:34   Marco hit apparently 17 walls of traffic all in all at once and

00:39:40   Did the thing that that one would expect, you know a good friend of yours to do and what Marco did was he said?

00:39:46   All right, you know rather than having me update you or you requesting an update of my location every five minutes

00:39:51   How about I'll just share my location with you so far so good

00:39:55   How is it five or ten or however many years and find my friends?

00:39:59   When somebody shares their location with you unless I missed it

00:40:03   Which I'm pretty sure I didn't when somebody shares their location with you. It says Marco is sharing his location

00:40:08   Would you like to share yours?

00:40:10   So far so good

00:40:11   but the thing is

00:40:12   How long is Marco sharing his location for?

00:40:15   Because if he was sharing his location for I think the option is like the rest of the day or maybe it's like an hour

00:40:20   It's like one hour rest of day and forever, right?

00:40:23   So what if Marco was sharing his location just for an hour which was enough time in theory for him to reach

00:40:29   You know that our mutual meeting point

00:40:31   Spoiler alert I did I did do it just for an hour thinking it would be enough time and it definitely was not enough time

00:40:37   Thanks to Long Island traffic

00:40:40   But here it is, you know, so you share for an hour

00:40:42   And then captain thirsty over here is like yes forever

00:40:45   Yes, and then I then I look like a dork cuz I'm cuz you were trying to do what you thought was necessary

00:40:51   Nothing wrong with that. And here I am like sure stalk me forever

00:40:55   Why not and I just wish that Apple would make it clear

00:41:00   What the other person has done if is this a is this like a privacy thing that I just can't put my arms around

00:41:08   They have to be so careful with this stuff

00:41:10   Think about like all the possible ways. This could potentially be abused by creepy people

00:41:17   Jerks like they're they're just so they are so careful with this and

00:41:23   Even if they go a little bit too careful on some of these features that are like about location sharing

00:41:30   I would say that's fine. Be it be extra careful be overly, you know, overly cautious in this because you know

00:41:38   Even metadata being shared

00:41:40   Can be abused by someone somewhere

00:41:43   So I don't I don't I can't think right off the top of my head of you know

00:41:47   Why it might be bad to tell someone how long you have shared location for but I think it's best in this case

00:41:53   Like be as careful as possible

00:41:55   And so, you know and and maybe you want to avoid the situation like maybe you're being pressured to share location with somebody through

00:42:01   You know some kind of you know work obligation or some kind of societal norm or just some other kind of pressure

00:42:07   And you're like, alright final share location and then you're like, you know, but for one hour, you know

00:42:11   And then maybe you can you know get out of that situation in some other way in the meantime

00:42:14   And then you're not sharing location with them forever and they don't know that until you're long gone or whatever like

00:42:19   there's always you got to figure like how could this be abused and you know chances are

00:42:24   Every little detail of any kind of location based anything on iOS has been

00:42:30   Considered to death by people inside of Apple thought to death push to death

00:42:35   Experimented with to death and unfortunately, you know hacks to death by anybody on the outside who's trying to get around it

00:42:41   So, you know, they're being cautious here probably for very good reasons. Oh totally. I totally agree

00:42:46   I just wish it was clearer to me and maybe this is my own failing like what the the the

00:42:52   What's the the threat model is that you know?

00:42:55   What specifically do they think they're preventing because I agree with you like be precious about it

00:43:00   And I don't mean that flippantly like be precious about it and don't leave an avenue for this to be abused

00:43:05   I just wish I understood it because this doesn't happen to me often but on the occasions it does happen

00:43:10   I always feel so guilty and that I don't know how to reciprocate appropriately like, you know

00:43:15   What if you shared your location forever and I'm like, yeah screw you one hour eat it, you know, like it's not a big deal

00:43:21   I just wish it was more clear and and that's why when I send these

00:43:25   What I always do is I say I'm about to send you my location for you plank, you know

00:43:30   I'm about to send you my location for the next hour or I'm about to send you my location, you know forever

00:43:34   Whatever the case may be and it shouldn't I shouldn't have to do that. It should be clear what the situation

00:43:39   You're overthinking this but you just pointed out why they would want to keep it private because if it's if it's implemented the way

00:43:45   It is now or neither one of you knows

00:43:47   Then you don't have to worry about you can just make your own decision, right?

00:43:51   I know you're what you want is I want to reciprocate

00:43:52   I want to know so I can so I can make a decision based on what they did

00:43:56   But the flip side of that is you are free to make your own decision without declaring it to the other person

00:44:01   You know what? I mean?

00:44:01   Just like I said, it's like well if he's sharing it forever and you share one hour he might be insulted

00:44:05   But knowing that both of you don't know it's not automatically sent to each other

00:44:09   You can make your decision in isolation if that's what you want to do

00:44:12   What your complaint is I can't make my decision not an isolated

00:44:15   But of course you can because you can just ask Marco

00:44:16   How long did you share it for and the same way when you don't want to make it an isolation on your end?

00:44:21   You send the information. I just shared it with you for an hour

00:44:23   So the current system probably is a better bet than the other one

00:44:28   Although you could have used a check-in feature if you could figure out how to do that, I suppose. Oh, that's true

00:44:32   I didn't think about that. I that would have been a really good time for I don't even know how to activate that

00:44:36   I see it advertised occasionally

00:44:38   If memory serves what you got to do is I'm gonna try right now you go into messages you go to send a message you

00:44:44   Hit the little plus and then I believe if you scroll down. Yes

00:44:48   There's it's the the icon is a yellow checkbox and it says check in and then I think there's like a prompter wizard or what?

00:44:54   Have you guys all know just like is that one way or two way? I don't know how that works

00:44:57   But I think it's one way I think in this case you should try it

00:45:00   I think it's more for like when you're on your way home

00:45:02   So they know or if you're if a kid is going somewhere you want to know whether they got there or whatever

00:45:05   But it is but I think that would have been a perfectly valid use and now I kind of regret that

00:45:09   We didn't think to use it

00:45:11   It would have been a perfectly valid use case here. But yeah, that's that's my

00:45:14   That's that's my complaint for the day. So please and thank you

00:45:18   Breaking news a day or two ago just a couple of days ago

00:45:22   Beeper mini which I had heard of beeper before and I think it's been under several names several different flavors of beeper beeper this beeper

00:45:29   That but beeper many brings I messaged Android. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sure

00:45:33   It does we've heard this many times before and many times before we've seen what that means is there's some sort of like

00:45:38   V a VM that's running Mac OS that you're supposed to send your credentials to and then it sits in

00:45:44   Messages and it forwards all your stuff back and forth and so on and so forth and it's gross. It's gross

00:45:50   It's a huge threat to your security. It's just everything about it top to bottom is disgusting

00:45:56   Except that's not what this is doing. What this is doing is apparently it is legitimately

00:46:02   talking to Apple servers and having you

00:46:05   present your phone number as as an iPhone and

00:46:09   It will allow you to register for honest gosh first party iMessages and it will communicate with Apple's

00:46:17   You know a pns servers directly. There is a proof of concept written in Python by a high schooler

00:46:22   That is still on github last I looked and I have not played with the code myself

00:46:27   But a friend of the show Quinn Nelson over at snazzy labs

00:46:31   He put together a really really great like 10 minute video on it. We're in he has a

00:46:37   Linux laptop. This is not an Apple laptop running Linux. It's an honest to goodness like system system 76

00:46:44   I forgot what was called Linux laptop. Wait people actually have and use Linux laptops

00:46:49   Well, apparently youtubers do but a laptop with Linux on it. I don't know it's system 76 specifically dedicated to Linux laptop

00:46:55   I think that's correct. Maybe I'm wrong, but I believe that to be correct. I mean, otherwise nothing would work on it, right?

00:46:59   No, Wi-Fi no sound great. Yeah, exactly exactly

00:47:02   It's well done. Well done gentlemen, but anyways, I'm right in I know Linux has gotten better. Yeah

00:47:07   Has it has it though? But anyway, so yeah, so this legitimately seems to work

00:47:13   I don't know what specifically Apple could do in order to shut this all down

00:47:19   but I am stunned that this has lasted more than five minutes and I do think as an as a

00:47:27   Engineering exercise. This is extremely cool. I don't know how I feel about it more broadly than that

00:47:34   But as an engineering exercise, I cannot believe anyone was able to do this much less a high schooler operating on his own

00:47:40   Incredibly cool. I believe it because I think Quinn had the exact right analogy in his video. It's like hackintoshes

00:47:46   It's almost exactly like that right because so here's the thing if Apple's running the iMessage service, right?

00:47:51   The problem for Apple is how do I know that the thing using the iMessage service?

00:47:56   Isn't a real Apple device an iPhone a Mac whatever right? That's actually a pretty hard problem

00:48:02   and

00:48:05   Hackintoshes have the same problem. You saw you want to run Mac OS in this computer Mac OS is like wait a second

00:48:10   How do I know this computer is a Mac and not like a PC that you're tricking me?

00:48:15   It's really difficult to do that

00:48:17   There's only so much you can do with the hardware to make it appear authentic and most of that stuff

00:48:24   It's kind of like DRM right the information about the authenticity of the hardware has to be sent to Apple

00:48:31   Like you have to leave the machine and go to Apple and say I am legitimate

00:48:35   and there's stuff you can do with secure enclaves and things like that, but

00:48:39   For the most part what Apple has done and the reason Hackintosh's exist is they do lots of stuff with like oh you need a legitimate

00:48:45   Serial number I need to be able to look it up on my Apple database

00:48:47   And that's that's a lot of how Hackintosh stuff works, and that's that's how this works right so high school student doing it

00:48:53   That's really cool and everything

00:48:55   But it's the same as the people who figure out how to get Mac OS on PC hardware

00:48:59   You just have to convince whatever Apple things that you are a legitimate piece of hardware that you're supposed to be installing on

00:49:05   And the push notification servers apparently can be convinced not with not too much difficulty, right?

00:49:12   You just need to know have some fake essentially fake credentials that you can send

00:49:15   and

00:49:18   You know that the thing Quinn says in the video is well

00:49:21   Why doesn't Apple just block the fake credentials because in the github repo?

00:49:24   There's one set of fake credentials that like makes it masquerade as a serial number of like a legitimate phone

00:49:28   Why they just block that problem solved, right?

00:49:30   But then you just get another one right as he was showing a Hackintosh tool

00:49:35   Where you can essentially randomly generate like Mac serial numbers for Hackintosh's until you find one

00:49:40   That's a real one because Apple has services that you can you know look up your serial number with or whatever right?

00:49:45   It's actually kind of annoying for Apple to deal with this

00:49:49   There are possible solutions to get increasingly draconian involving again the secure enclave and cryptographically secure stuff

00:49:57   But like like all security stuff the other side of the security coin is convenience and the more difficult Apple

00:50:02   It makes this for Hackintosh people and for this messaging things

00:50:06   The more spillover there is impossible inconvenience for their legitimate customers and practically speaking

00:50:12   It seems like there's probably not going to be a ton of these customers. What's Apple's best tool to get rid of this?

00:50:18   It's not technical. It's always legal

00:50:20   Lots of things may be technically possible

00:50:23   But Apple has a lot of lawyers and lots of things you can technically do Apple may not want you to do and can stop

00:50:28   You doing legal. We'll see if it raises to that level of concern

00:50:32   There are also technical things they can do but why do the cat and mouse game with technically?

00:50:36   Why does Apple do the cat and mouse game with Hackintosh's they do it?

00:50:39   But in a kind of a half-hearted way like Hackintosh's are still possible

00:50:43   They're harder than they used to be but there's not that many people making Hackintosh's Apple's not super duper concern those people problem

00:50:49   We're gonna buy a max anyway, so they do do things to thwart Hackintosh's year after year after year

00:50:54   But they're not dedicating billions of dollars to it right. It's not that important. We'll see what happens with this

00:51:00   I feel like with this thing like

00:51:02   I have to imagine that when you use any legitimate Apple product

00:51:06   There's some screen that none of us reads that says you agree that you only use official Apple devices to talk to you

00:51:11   Let's say our iMessage servers, you know what I mean? That's gotta be in there somewhere

00:51:14   So they're probably already in violation of some agreement where like because you know, they're they're using Apple servers

00:51:20   They're sending messages that beeper also has service by the way

00:51:23   Because the beeper servers like when your phone is off the beeper servers are listening to Apple servers, but anyway bottom line is

00:51:28   They're using Apple servers. They're sending data to them. They're receiving data from them. That's not free, right?

00:51:33   That's a service that Apple provides to augment its products and almost guaranteed

00:51:38   There's something in some agreement that you have to agree to when you get an Apple ID for instance or do anything that says hey

00:51:44   You're only allowed to use Apple servers if you you know have a legitimate Apple device or whatever

00:51:48   So this is way better than the thing where you run a Mac mini at a data center and sign into it and give strangers

00:51:54   access to all your data

00:51:56   And it may survive a lot longer than those

00:51:59   especially if it stays kind of like

00:52:02   Obscure that only tech nerds know about it and not many people use this app

00:52:05   But considering beeper is charging two dollars a month for this service and they probably want to grow their business

00:52:09   I'm not sure how obscure it's gonna stay. So I think this is interesting, but I

00:52:13   Would not bet a lot of money

00:52:16   that it's going to

00:52:18   Take over the world and continue to be a real thing that people rely on any year or two

00:52:22   yeah, like whenever you're dealing with any kind of

00:52:25   Hack like this, you know, I'd say the same thing about hackintosh as I said, you know, it's a good example

00:52:29   it's a fun thing to

00:52:31   experiment with

00:52:33   but I wouldn't

00:52:35   Buy new hardware for it that you wouldn't otherwise buy

00:52:39   I wouldn't make long-term plans about you know assumptions that it will work in the future and

00:52:44   And I sure as heck wouldn't build a business on it. That's for sure

00:52:48   It is a wonderful technical feat that people figure out ways around this stuff

00:52:53   That's that's great. And I kind of love the whole, you know hacker mindset that makes people want to do this kind of thing

00:52:58   That's that's great

00:52:59   but I think what makes it even riskier than a hackintosh is a

00:53:04   Hackintosh might work just fine for you on your desk, you know indefinitely as long as you don't do

00:53:11   You know software updates that might break it or whatever

00:53:13   But iMessage is a service that can break at any time and yeah

00:53:19   you know what john said was right like it would probably be a pain in the butt for Apple to

00:53:23   kind of play cat and mouse and try to intentionally keep breaking this thing, but

00:53:27   The reality is like when you're talking to a service that is that is out of your control

00:53:32   Apple can do a lot of things on its end that can break you at any time and you know

00:53:38   Unlike a hackintosh like, you know, you can control when your hackintosh turn, you know does its offer updates

00:53:43   You can turn off auto update and you can you know

00:53:45   Be careful with what you do and everything and maybe you can get it to run for a while

00:53:49   But with this you don't control when your thing keeps running or breaking it is out of your hands

00:53:54   So I would strongly recommend if you want to experiment with this like cool have fun with it

00:53:59   But like I wouldn't for instance

00:54:01   you know buy dedicated hardware for this that you can't afford to lose or the or

00:54:06   Make any assumptions that you can't afford to to have broken for you unexpectedly

00:54:10   And honestly the reward is you get to use iMessage which is probably not the best of all the cross-platform messaging services

00:54:18   So yeah

00:54:19   I mean I guess if you're in high school and all your friends have iPhones and you feel left out

00:54:22   By all means install it on your Android phone and run it for it probably lasts through junior year or whatever. But

00:54:27   but you know for regular people like I

00:54:31   don't I'm not sure there's an

00:54:34   Appetite that everyone's like, oh finally I can get iMessage on my Android phone like people have Android phones who are

00:54:40   not

00:54:42   caught up in the status of blue bubbles

00:54:44   Which I have to imagine is most people with Android phones because a lot of people have Android phones are already using whatever the most

00:54:49   popular cross-platform messaging app is in their

00:54:52   WhatsApp line we chat whatever all that stuff and you know and for my own kids I could see my own kids

00:54:58   It's not like they're dedicated to one messaging platform

00:55:01   They use like for some people they have to use a WhatsApp for some people

00:55:05   I don't know if they anything use line or they use all sorts of things

00:55:08   They use iMessage for some things some people it's SMS through iMessage green bubbles blue bubbles. What's up?

00:55:12   It's it's not like anyone lives a life of such purity

00:55:16   That you can somehow choose a single messaging service and only use that unless you're one of those people who refuses to talk to anyone

00:55:21   Unless they're using signal or whatever, but that's not the way most people work

00:55:26   Some people in your life some things that you have to do you have to use messaging app, whatever, you know someday

00:55:32   Maybe your kids will be in school and you'll have to go to a Facebook page. It happens to everybody

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00:56:51   All right, so a couple months ago now

00:56:57   John did something unheard of

00:57:00   You blocked for like the third time this year or something like that. I don't know what to make of this. Are you feeling okay?

00:57:08   Yeah, I'm doing average last year I did

00:57:10   Let's see four months out of the year. I blogged something this year. I'll end up doing four again, you know

00:57:18   It's average. I I promise at least one post a year on average across multiple years and I'm holding up that end of the bargain

00:57:27   Fair enough. All right. So let's talk about this. What is Apple's blue ocean?

00:57:33   This is something I had it in mind for a while and I you know, I've I kept thinking about writing this and it was just too

00:57:40   Nebulous, so I tried to focus it the blue ocean ocean thing is something we've talked about on this show before I

00:57:46   It's not a very long article so you can read it

00:57:48   But I summarized it in the article blue ocean is a thing that I first heard about

00:57:52   related to the Nintendo Wii

00:57:54   So I'm getting it already secondhand

00:57:57   I believe it was like a

00:57:58   Business book or some business paper or something big thing in the business world that business people are now mad that everyone else is

00:58:04   You know getting a more pop culture reading on it

00:58:07   But mine is the pop culture reading on it and the reason came up in the context of the Wii is that we was Nintendo's

00:58:11   Console with had the big remote control thing that you wave around to play games

00:58:14   But the whole thing about the Wii is that was the generation of console when all of the other console competitors were growing high

00:58:20   definition instead of standard definition television with HDTV and

00:58:24   Nintendo did not

00:58:26   Which seems like a terrible decision?

00:58:28   Everyone else is going high def every other console generation before it had been all about you know Nintendo's

00:58:34   64 64 is bigger than 32 we have more bits. We've got blast processing. We've got 3d like everything is about

00:58:41   Graphics power and technology, that's how you sell game consoles, and then Nintendo says we're not even gonna do high definition

00:58:48   Everybody else is doing it, but we're not

00:58:50   That that was their example of the blue ocean strategy because the red ocean is over there

00:58:55   Where all the sharks are just eating the fish and blood is filling the water are trying to kill each other to get all these

00:59:00   Fish right that's saying we got a we got to have better and better graphics better and better technology faster CPUs faster

00:59:06   GPUs more memory bigger hard drives more you know more more more

00:59:10   That's the red ocean of game consoles that existed for pretty much the entire history of home game of console starting with the Atari

00:59:16   It was a red ocean based on

00:59:19   Competition over who can make the most powerful console that still is a reasonable price that people would buy right?

00:59:25   Blue ocean was

00:59:27   While all the sharks are over there filling the water with blood and eating everything in sight

00:59:31   We're gonna go way over here where there's nobody and believe me there was nobody over in the let's make a game console

00:59:37   That's standard definition with a weird remote control TV remote control that you wave around that was a blue ocean now

00:59:43   The blue ocean purists who say that's not what blue ocean is blue ocean is actually about making new markets

00:59:48   And the we did not make a new market

00:59:50   It was the game console market or whatever

00:59:52   But that's what I meant when I say the pop culture definition of blue ocean is like

00:59:55   Let's go compete along an axis that our competitors aren't interested in

01:00:00   Microsoft and Sony were not interested in making a standard definition game console that cost a lot less money

01:00:06   That was the size of three DVD cases on top of each other that had a motion control

01:00:09   There was nobody over there. It was a blue ocean no blood in the water and tendos all by itself

01:00:15   Now obviously

01:00:18   Doing something that none of your competitors want to do is really easy

01:00:21   Often they don't want to do it because it's a dumb idea

01:00:25   Alright, we turned out not to be a dumb idea

01:00:28   So that's the trick of the blue ocean strategies to go to a place where your competitors are not and also have it be a good

01:00:35   idea

01:00:36   So in the context of Apple what I've been thinking about is

01:00:38   What is Apple's blue ocean because Apple has done a lot of blue ocean II kind of moves no

01:00:43   They haven't made entirely new markets of the arguably they've come close with things like the iPhone and hey, maybe the vision pro will say

01:00:49   But they've done a lot of things that their competitors were not interested in doing that ended up being successful

01:00:55   Like, you know, even something making a candy-colored computer with no floppy drive their competitors were not interested in doing that

01:01:02   They had plenty of opportunity to do it. There's no technical innovation in the iMac that anyone else couldn't have done. You can make a a

01:01:08   PC with no legacy ports. That's all-in-one. That's teal and shiny and plastic

01:01:13   In fact, everybody did do that after the iMac came out

01:01:15   But that was example of Apple going where you know other people aren't and there's other things they've done like that

01:01:20   Examples to give the article is making a smartphone without a physical keyboard other people actually had done that

01:01:26   They just did a crappy job of it

01:01:28   You know the iPod something that was probably technically possible for any company to do

01:01:32   It's not like there was any special Apple sauce in there

01:01:34   Especially since Apple at that point was not very good at making tiny little consumer electronics like that

01:01:38   But Apple did do it. The competitors were much larger and bulkier and competed in two long different axes. Anyway,

01:01:45   The reason I've been thinking about this is one specific thing that I keep thinking that Apple could do that would be blue ocean e

01:01:52   that I think

01:01:54   Would work pretty well, and I think the window of time

01:01:57   This is not something around the article the window of time for them to do it is

01:02:00   Finite so this article, you know, we'll look back on this article at 2031 and we have our 6g modems in our max

01:02:07   We'll say oh they didn't age. Well, right there's for any of these things

01:02:11   There's a time limit based on the technology and I'll explain that in a second. So the thing I'm suggesting is that Apple

01:02:16   Start selling products with removable batteries, which sounds ridiculous

01:02:20   Whatever happening arguably one of Apple's blue ocean moves was getting rid of the replaceable batteries

01:02:28   Everybody had replaceable batteries in their cell phones, right and in their laptop computers and in both those cases Apple said, you know

01:02:35   We're not gonna do that. We're gonna sell you a laptop the batteries sealed in you can't even remove it

01:02:40   And and there was nothing stopping anybody else from doing that

01:02:43   It's not a technological innovation where no one could figure out how to seal a battery inside a case

01:02:47   but Apple chose to do it and stuck to their guns and that

01:02:50   Ended up being good move and a lot of PC laptops do that these days as well

01:02:54   Same thing with cell phones used to be able to take the batteries out of them. Now you can't

01:02:57   So why would they ever

01:03:00   Go back on that

01:03:01   What would be the point because the advantage of the sealed in battery where he talked about it when whatever the PowerBook 17 came

01:03:07   Out 17 inch came out the source one to seal the batteries and I think

01:03:10   I

01:03:11   Mean advantages it makes your device is smaller more reliable. You can fit more battery inside them. They're lighter like just

01:03:16   You know up and down

01:03:18   Disadvantages have also always been obvious and pretty much everyone has aside. Yeah, but the advantages that way the disadvantages

01:03:24   So don't worry about it and the disadvantages are you know, the battery dies?

01:03:28   It's harder for you to replace you have to bring it in to get service to get a new battery

01:03:32   You can't take extra batteries with you and just swap them in so we have all these battery packs

01:03:37   So we connect with USB or mag safe. All right, we've come up with all these solutions. No one thinks about this

01:03:41   No one thinks it's a big problem, right?

01:03:43   but

01:03:45   There is a window of time with current battery technology

01:03:48   Where Apple could be out in a new part of the ocean where there are no competitors

01:03:53   selling its products based on a feature that no one else has because it's too hard to do well and

01:04:00   As Johnny Cerulli said when it gets really hard, that's where Apple excels because it's so hard that only Apple can do it

01:04:05   I don't know if that's true. But if that's the spirit they should give it a try

01:04:09   What would the advantages be a removable batteries? We know the ones I just described but the big advantage

01:04:14   That is increasingly important to Apple has to do with their

01:04:18   environmental initiatives

01:04:20   lots of electronic stuff gets thrown out because the battery is no longer good and it's too annoying or

01:04:26   Expensive or both to replace you can replace a battery in an iPhone. You're gonna place a battery in a laptop

01:04:33   Can't really do it in AirPods. That's a bummer

01:04:35   but like people don't do it because like oh doesn't seem worth it because

01:04:40   Take it in to get serviced and how much is it gonna cost and Apple doesn't let third parties do it because then you get

01:04:45   Like a thing that complains it's not legitimate batteries

01:04:47   You have to pay Apple's prices and how much does it cost to replace it a battery in an iPad it costs how much?

01:04:52   And people don't do it and they just end up recycling it right if you're lucky

01:04:55   They recycle it if you're unlucky they gets thrown in a garbage somewhere or there

01:05:00   You can make a device that lasts longer as in has a longer useful life if it's easy to swap out that battery and that

01:05:06   Is related to battery technology because the rechargeable batteries we have now they wear out in a not too long period of time

01:05:13   We have all had

01:05:15   Devices that we say well this would still be good as like a kid iPad or a phone that I would give to my youngest

01:05:20   Child or something but the battery is dead and it costs me

01:05:23   $80 plus an annoying trip to somewhere plus a trip to get it back to get it replaced

01:05:27   So I'm not gonna bother and I'll just find something else right

01:05:30   At the high end if we could sell you a iPhone that you said like my iPhone is fine. It's not slow

01:05:37   I got a top-of-the-line one

01:05:39   But three years into using it all day the battery is going and now I have to wear a battery case or bring a battery pack

01:05:45   With me and it's just you know

01:05:46   Same thing with the Apple watch well that's a harder sell because it's not hard to get a remove battery to that

01:05:50   We'll talk about that in a second

01:05:52   if you can make a device last longer that's better for the environment and people are more satisfied with their product and this is a

01:05:58   Business model like we talked about the key cap things that fits well with premium brands

01:06:04   You know Nordstrom taking the exchange of your snow tires buying something from an expensive luggage company or buying these stupid expensive chairs that we're all

01:06:12   Sitting on that like 12 year warranty is like if anything breaks in those 12 years

01:06:16   You paid so much money for this chair. Don't worry about it

01:06:20   We'll fix it for free for 12 years, which is unheard of that's why the chairs cost so much money, right?

01:06:24   But people are satisfied with that you're selling a premium product. There should be a premium experience. I just heard the

01:06:29   Very Scottish CEO of Volvo on the decoder podcast doing an interview essentially saying

01:06:35   What they're trying to sell rather than subscriptions to heated seats are

01:06:39   Services that make the ownership experience of a Volvo better like hey will come and was like in Sweden or whatever

01:06:45   It's mandatory that you change the snow tires in the winter. So since everybody has to do it. Don't worry

01:06:51   Nintendo knows that you have a Nintendo

01:06:53   Wow

01:06:55   Volvo knows that you have to switch the snow tires

01:06:57   They will for a price come to your house swap your snow tires

01:07:00   Take your summer tires store them for you and bring them back later

01:07:03   That's awesome

01:07:04   And you don't have to worry about making an appointment to get them swapped and can you get it in and you know like or figuring

01:07:08   Out what you like follow will do it for you, right?

01:07:10   You know for what it's worth in the States it started during kovat and as far as I know it's still a thing

01:07:16   They do something called they were calling Volvo valet and they would come to your house pick up your car

01:07:22   Bring it to the service center service it bring the car back and have you sign something and you know

01:07:28   Do whatever payment you need to do and then they take off and that's that so you have not

01:07:33   Really interacted or you've never left your house. You've interacted with somebody once or twice

01:07:38   I guess for like five minutes each and that's it and we haven't done it in a long time

01:07:42   Because we own the car only goes in once a year and even then

01:07:46   We've brought it in the last couple times

01:07:48   But we did do this once or maybe twice and it was amazing and it was to the best of my knowledge at the time

01:07:54   Anyway, completely free now granted the service servicing a European car is a fortune

01:07:59   But there was no obvious added cost and no line item for the vote for the Volvo valet

01:08:05   That's the thing if you can provide additional value you can charge more money, right?

01:08:09   If you know like and I mentioned this in the article

01:08:11   It's like all these these these benefits of replaceable batteries environmental benefits the satisfaction with your product of getting a longer life out of it

01:08:18   All those things go against one of the one of the goals of Apple, which is their financial

01:08:23   You know their financial goals, which is like if you don't buy a new iPhone, we don't make money

01:08:29   So doesn't Apple want you to keep buying iPhones? That's the balance that all these premium band brands have to make if Apple makes a product

01:08:37   That that lasts longer that is better for the environment

01:08:40   They can charge more money for it if people are more satisfied with the product

01:08:43   That's that whole chasing the the you know up the price ladder

01:08:46   Which Apple loves to do those services the Volvo provides whether they're free or not of all also wants to provide like insurance and everything

01:08:52   Like they don't worry if all those getting their money somehow these services

01:08:55   Like you said the service itself at the dealership is expensive the cars themselves have higher margins, right?

01:08:59   There's a way to get that money as long as you're delivering the value now

01:09:05   the reason I can't bring up replaceable batteries as a possibility is because

01:09:09   Like it's hard to do it's hard to do that. Well, there are lots of obvious problems with racial fires. What about waterproofing?

01:09:16   What about starting fires? What about when the battery starts to swell?

01:09:19   What about be taking the battery out and the thing turns off like, you know?

01:09:22   And you have to have a battery inside it to keep it going while the batteries removed from it

01:09:25   I don't know how ugly it is. Everything gets bigger. Everything gets heavier. Lindt gets caught inside there. You have creases like

01:09:32   tons of problems and

01:09:34   That's why this is why the possibility for Apple to do if they can figure out how to do replaceable batteries

01:09:40   Well and deliver the benefits with fewer of the drawbacks

01:09:44   They will be the only one out there doing that and it will be harder for people to follow them

01:09:47   A lot of the innovations that Apple has done have been quickly followed by their competitors unlike Nintendo

01:09:52   It was had more durable benefits like no one was chasing them to do standard def consoles

01:09:56   People didn't really chase them into motion controls, right?

01:09:59   And it's really hard to chase them. Let's just make it a game as good as Legend of Zelda. That's hard to copy, right?

01:10:05   I think a good replaceable battery would also be difficult to copy

01:10:09   So like this is this is my suggestion to Apple it's like I'm not it's not a prediction as I said in the article

01:10:15   it's not a prediction it's a suggestion and there's a time limit on it because if and when battery technology improves and

01:10:21   Batteries wearing out after three years is no longer a thing. You missed the window for this, right?

01:10:26   This is only relevant now because so many products that we have in

01:10:30   their life prematurely

01:10:33   because of the battery going bad and

01:10:35   you know again with the 2030 thing and the the

01:10:39   Carbon impact of all their products or whatever having products with longer useful life is valuable

01:10:45   It's valuable to Apple and it's valuable to customers and I feel like there has to way be a way for them to

01:10:50   handshake on that value and come up with something that is

01:10:54   Beneficial to both and then Apple can brag about it like crazy our computers last three years longer than average because we have these replaceable

01:11:02   But and you know, they can pick a product just do it on the phone. Just do it on the iPad

01:11:06   Just do it on the watch just do it on the Mac

01:11:08   It's like you need to do it across all of them

01:11:09   But figure it out find out a way to do it make it a big selling point how they kind of sort of already have

01:11:15   replaceable batteries for the headset

01:11:16   So maybe they're going in that direction because there is no battery in the thing. The one battery you have is easily replaceable

01:11:21   So you could just swap it for another one. Of course the whole thing turns off when you unplug it

01:11:25   So they'll have to work on that. But uh, yeah, that's my thoughts about this

01:11:28   and I know it flies in the face of what everyone thinks because especially in the Apple world like when Apple does something they get

01:11:33   Rid of the floppy drive they get rid of the optical drive like, you know, they make these moves and eventually

01:11:39   Apple fans say well, that's just the way it has to be we've we complained about in the beginning

01:11:44   But it was obviously the right thing to do and we're never going backwards. Why would we ever go back to that?

01:11:49   We're not gonna re-add optical drives

01:11:50   We're not gonna put floppy drives back on but replaceable batteries

01:11:53   I think are different especially because the environment of the environmental handle because the benefits of them never went away and

01:11:59   Batteries still have the problem where they wear out and so many of our things are battery-powered and we use them so so much

01:12:05   That so many of us experience essentially

01:12:09   Battery death as the end of the life of our products. I can think of pretty much every one of my iPhones

01:12:14   like my only

01:12:17   Dissatisfaction with it when I got a new one and I'm on a two-year cycle

01:12:19   Was that the old phones battery is kind of wonky and yeah

01:12:22   I should have just got the battery replace instead of getting a new phone

01:12:25   But I've got a tech podcast so I gotta get a new phone every two years

01:12:27   But I'm so sorry. Yeah, I know it's it's a hard life. But yeah, but but yeah, that's like I

01:12:33   Feel like this is a common experience of batteries going bad

01:12:36   That's why I feel like this is not just like some weird tech nerd thing replaceable batteries who cares

01:12:41   Everybody has experienced the pain of batteries going bad in a device. That's otherwise good. And I think most people alive today

01:12:48   Remember what replaceable batteries and things were like just because so many things still have replaceable batteries our phones don't but other things that I do

01:12:56   Have replaceable batteries

01:12:57   Wrestle batteries are good Apple could make a really good version of replaceable batteries

01:13:01   Give it a stupid branded name that we would make fun of but make it really really cool and I'm here for it

01:13:06   Do you you know obviously one of the big?

01:13:09   One of the big like, you know naysayer arguments against something like this

01:13:14   Because even assuming even if Apple could do a really good job

01:13:18   Designing like a battery door a battery module, you know, whatever or whatever

01:13:24   It would be that would that would you know make this easier and better and effectively give you know replaceable batteries

01:13:29   Even if they could do a good job of that. I

01:13:33   Think that the cynical take here that's most obvious is they make a lot of money from

01:13:38   Sales of new devices that maybe wouldn't have been sales of new devices. No, I cover that

01:13:44   Yeah, but of course, of course that's against our financial interest

01:13:47   But it's the same thing with everybody who sells anything that lasts longer like our stupid chairs that we're sitting on

01:13:51   You figure out how to make the math work

01:13:53   How much do I have to charge for the stupid chair to provide 12 year warranty?

01:13:57   Right to make the math work out and the only way you can charge more is to deliver additional value

01:14:03   so you have to

01:14:04   put something in the product that people are willing to pay more for and then you charge more for it and

01:14:08   It all works out like the expensive luggage that if anything breaks out

01:14:11   They'll replace the zipper for 50 years or whatever like it's not easy

01:14:15   But it's a thing that lots of products do including current Apple products. I would argue

01:14:19   I mean one argument against you know having having any kind of you know, replaceable battery thing

01:14:26   One of the biggest arguments that was given throughout, you know the history of this transition of going to permanent batteries is

01:14:31   basically

01:14:33   We're able to make the product better this way in the sense that like it's better in ways people will care about and therefore buy

01:14:40   More so for instance one counter-argument would basically go something like well if we made this laptop have a replaceable battery

01:14:47   Then it would be a little bit bigger and a little bit thicker and therefore nobody would want that and I think that is

01:14:55   Probably true at some point to some degree

01:14:58   Well, it would be bigger and thicker

01:15:00   But the nobody would want it is difficult because they I mean they did just make the laptops bigger and thicker and nobody cared like

01:15:06   That's that's the amount we're talking about a few millimeters like that

01:15:08   Your laptop that you have now is thicker than they were back when Johnny I've had designed the case

01:15:12   Nobody cares it's important for for Apple to

01:15:16   Not assume that whatever lesson they think they might have learned

01:15:21   Ten years ago would still apply today or in the future, you know, because what happens is over time people's priorities change

01:15:28   device and tech and consumer product fashion changes and so

01:15:33   You know as we as we go forward in time

01:15:36   I I think more and more people are getting environmentally conscious

01:15:40   More and more people are kind of having a backlash against you know, the most extreme consumerism and and you know rampant waste

01:15:48   Yeah, and especially people who are who don't have tech podcast who aren't tech enthusiasts

01:15:51   They don't want to buy a new phone every three years because the battery ran bad

01:15:54   They're happy with their phone as it is. They don't want the hassle of replacing it

01:15:58   They don't want to pay for it to replace and they don't want to buy a new phone

01:16:01   They just want their battery to be like it used to right. They're not interested in getting a new phone constantly, right?

01:16:06   And that's that's from the tech enthusiasts. Like I'm gonna buy a new device

01:16:09   Anyway, who what do I care but people very little people aren't like that there if you're not into tech

01:16:14   You just want a phone that works and if it continues to work

01:16:17   Like it's less disruption. You've relied to just keep using your phone

01:16:20   but again, like the hard part is like how do you get Apple to

01:16:24   Be willing to take a risk like that

01:16:27   When it would most likely result in fewer unit sales down the road

01:16:32   Yeah

01:16:32   Now that's they have to they have to figure out like because obviously the value delivered by removal batteries is not equal across their product

01:16:38   Line, that's fair. Where is it the most valuable, right?

01:16:41   It's probably not the most valuable in the watch maybe because it's so tiny

01:16:44   Who'd want to even mess with that little tiny battery or whatever? Although I'll tell you what though

01:16:48   The watch is where where you need it pretty well that I know that's you know, that's the problem current battery technologies

01:16:53   Where you need it the most but also nobody wants to be fiddling with like

01:16:57   Can you imagine trying to make a replaceable battery in the watch?

01:16:59   That is probably the hardest problem and you'd lose them like the kids would swallow them

01:17:03   right and you know see also air pods to like I

01:17:06   Was at the watch and air pods are probably where this is needed the most because they have the smallest

01:17:11   Batteries that I think I think last the shortest time before it becomes hard to use the product

01:17:17   when we talked about when the air pads first came out the idea of like having the stems be screw on and

01:17:22   Unscrewable and have that essentially be the battery part of it

01:17:25   But that's not how they've I think of the new air pods the battery isn't even in the stem anymore. So doesn't even matter

01:17:30   There are definitely like, you know some some like, you know legal or regulatory challenges here too

01:17:35   Like, you know, so so for the you know, the batteries if they are removable if they are consumer replaceable what you just said

01:17:41   Like, you know a kid might swallow it. They have to think about that

01:17:43   Like there there are certain regulations air tags air tags are the example because they use standard button batteries

01:17:48   But they're they're they're not like the watch because the air tag batteries last a long time. I'm like the watch

01:17:52   But yes

01:17:53   I mean this the reason they did replaceable batteries on the air tags is like it's untenable to make a product that price was sealed

01:17:58   In batteries and it's way it would be wasteful, right?

01:18:00   So, you know most of the mass of that product is the battery and it's a standard battery

01:18:05   They didn't even make their own they didn't even come with a great solution

01:18:08   I don't even particularly like how they do the battery on the air tags

01:18:11   We have to twist that thing and never feels quite right to me, but they did it

01:18:14   So, I mean that's that's one end of the spectrum

01:18:17   I'm thinking something, you know for the more expensive products, but I don't know where deliver the most value obviously

01:18:22   People have their individual needs like I wish I had this on my phone or I wish it had on my laptop

01:18:27   iPad would be really weird

01:18:29   I talked about this in the article like if you make the battery on the iPad replaceable the structural integrity of the product disappears

01:18:36   Like where you take a battery out of an iPad, it's like, okay

01:18:40   So now it's just like a two millimeter thick screen or something

01:18:43   There are hard problems here for sure. But I you know, that's that's why I'm asking Alex

01:18:49   Apple not my son to rise to rise to the challenge, you know

01:18:54   And I would be excited by how they would brand it

01:18:57   Like if they came up with the good solution and gave it some you know

01:19:00   Dorky name and some weird kind of like magsafe, you know

01:19:04   Not that you know connecting things with magnets was an amazing innovation, but they branded it works really well

01:19:08   People loved it so much them and they took it away. We complained until they brought it back

01:19:11   and as you said like the

01:19:13   there is an ebb and flow to

01:19:15   Technology market and that's that's the

01:19:19   That's the beauty of the strategy everyone else is like well sealed in batteries

01:19:22   We're at whenever we're going back to the other way and Apple could be like, you know what?

01:19:25   Let's not close the door on that

01:19:27   Let's look, you know until unless we get solid-state batteries last for years and don't die after three years

01:19:33   This is the time for us to potentially

01:19:35   Find a little section of blue ocean where nobody else is even trying this and see if it's a good idea

01:19:40   And you know if it's not a good idea like try it on a low-profile product and retreat and they did it with a touch bar

01:19:45   right I

01:19:47   Hear what you're saying and my first

01:19:51   Knee-jerk reaction is no freaking way because I just I can't fathom a way to do this. That isn't trash and

01:19:59   Yes, I know that that's like the whole point right, you know, is that Apple waves its magic wand over this problem

01:20:05   And suddenly it's how do you feel about the air tag?

01:20:06   So speaking of the way to do it, it's not trash because I think it's kind of trash

01:20:09   Oh, I actually think the air tag approach is fine. Like it's not terribly appley. It's a very

01:20:15   How many of those batteries have your place does it feel good to replace them?

01:20:18   I can never tell if they last about a year, but I would say yeah

01:20:21   But I can never tell if I've got the new battery in securely

01:20:24   You have to press in like twist and I will say I recently had to like restore an air tag to like it's unpaired status

01:20:32   I could pair it to a different account. Have you ever have you ever had to do that?

01:20:35   You know what the process is is there a pinhole somewhere?

01:20:37   No, you you basically just pop the battery cover on and off five times in a row

01:20:42   So you basically booted up, you know doing five times in a row and then it plays a different sound effect

01:20:48   And then you compare it then it shows up. I don't know if I could accomplish that. It's so hard to twist that little thing

01:20:52   It's a slippery. It's like smooth metal or whatever. Yeah, I answer your question

01:20:57   Like I don't think it's a premium feel but it doesn't actively like bother me or anything like that. I think it's fine

01:21:03   I mean, I feel like that's the bottom of the barrel

01:21:05   What I'm envisioning is the premium experience like not magnets, but imagine the battery equivalent of mag safe

01:21:12   I mean the best comparison is probably power tools, you know

01:21:14   They all have some standardized crappy battery that they have for like, you know, the wall power tool your Makita power

01:21:19   They all sell their own bespoke. You can only buy this type of battery because it fits into these

01:21:23   That's like the Fisher price kind of like big tough toy thing and imagine that but an Apple techie version

01:21:29   Yeah, I mean I I again I I think

01:21:33   I'm

01:21:34   Struggling getting past the vision of how how does this what does this look like and something?

01:21:40   Where there is no extra space anywhere, but let's assume

01:21:43   Let's assume it's possible to make it work even though I'm very skeptical about that

01:21:48   The thing that the the trump card that you have I really got to stop saying that

01:21:52   But anyway, the the ace in the hole that you have he ruined so many things like red hats

01:21:57   Really? So sorry about that. I am still sorry about that about the hats still sort

01:22:02   but nevertheless, I think the the ace in the hole that you have though is that

01:22:08   Apple really cares about the Earth's blue oceans see what I did there and I really think that the

01:22:16   environmental impact is the way in which this starts to make a lot more sense and

01:22:20   Everything else I can think of I'm not sure I'm with you on this John, but the environmental side I get it

01:22:28   And yes, I actually that's not fair

01:22:29   I do agree with you that if they could make it work

01:22:31   You know if we could wave our magic wand and make it work and make it work nicely

01:22:34   That is a competitive advantage and that is something that would bring people to the to their products and their platforms

01:22:41   But I just find that hard to believe and I get some Apple branded batteries and prevent third parties from selling

01:22:46   Of course, I've got a lot of Apple synergies in there

01:22:50   Yeah, but I think you're right though Casey like the the climate angle is

01:22:54   You know, if you look at Apple as a company like what what's important to them and you know

01:23:01   Number one seems to be you know, well it between money and making good products, you know

01:23:07   They're really good at making money and they are

01:23:10   you know when when

01:23:12   when they have to choose between being

01:23:14   Stingy to make more money or giving away a little too much. They're stingy to make more money every time

01:23:20   They always choose very consistently on that point

01:23:23   And so it's hard for us to look at something like this and say how could they possibly ever?

01:23:28   Make a choice that would result in possible lower sales, but I think the environmental

01:23:35   Initiative is one of those areas that actually is powerful enough that might that it might actually push them

01:23:42   To sway in that direction sometimes and you know, they're not gonna sway in that direction all the time. Of course

01:23:47   they're a big company, they're really good at making a lot of money, but

01:23:49   that is one area that they also care very much about it's like up to the highest levels of the company and

01:23:56   Therefore like, you know, if you're gonna get through Tim Cook's spreadsheets to make it make less profit

01:24:02   What can do that health and environmental stuff like those can do that? Well, I bet environmental stuff though

01:24:08   I don't think you have to go through his spreadsheets because I think they believe that I think they're right that

01:24:12   environmental stuff

01:24:13   Is good for the the spreadsheets in the long run and I would make the same argument about this

01:24:19   It's like look this is not we're not doing this as a charity project

01:24:21   Even though in the short term you're gonna see like you're gonna take some losses and there's gonna be R&D and so on and so forth

01:24:27   The whole idea is that you're gonna be out there in the blue ocean in the same way that the Wii was the best-selling console

01:24:31   In that generation it was standard definition. It had a remote control on it

01:24:34   The idea is you're gonna make more money like that's the whole point of the blue ocean. There are no competitors

01:24:39   You're the only one out there. No one else thought this was even an idea worth entertaining

01:24:42   So, of course when you come out with a thing everyone's laughing at she was like what a dumb idea and then it sells a whole

01:24:46   Jillion of them right again. You got to pick the right one

01:24:49   It's easy to do something. None of your competitors are doing and flop on your face

01:24:52   But I'm what I'm saying is I think this is potentially one of the right ones

01:24:56   So if you're gonna sell it to Tim Cook

01:24:57   You know to say well because you care about the environment so much you should do this, but it'll make you less money

01:25:02   No

01:25:03   It will also make you more money like that's I think that's part of the reason they do this environmental stuff like in the end

01:25:08   Apple converting itself to use all renewable energy and all of its data centers and all of its you know

01:25:14   headquarters and all of its factories like that's good for Apple financially in the long run because everyone's going to eventually do that and if

01:25:22   You're ahead and you've done it first you reap the benefits before everybody else setting aside all the PR angles

01:25:27   They're going to be a more modern company that pays less money to run itself

01:25:32   It's stupid donut that they made with it being like how much does it cost to heat and cool that the way they did it

01:25:38   Which cost them bazillions of dollars up front over the years?

01:25:41   That's gonna make its money back because the old dumb buildings that are heated and cooled dumb way

01:25:46   Costs so much more money per square foot or per person, right? That's the pitch

01:25:50   It's not you don't go to Tim Cook and say lose a little money to be good for the environment

01:25:54   You say be good for the environment and also make more money

01:25:57   I think that's how most of these things were not that you know, the all they care about is money

01:26:01   But it's like it's win-win if you do it the right way and the real kicker for the environmental stuff is

01:26:06   All the things they can do with the environmental stuff

01:26:09   Recycling we're using renewable energy carbon offsets all that in the end as many people point out and as Apple itself knows

01:26:17   the only real way to make a dent in this stuff is to do things like

01:26:23   Use less packaging like oh, we're using recycled cardboard

01:26:27   No, just use less whatever you're using use less of it make the box smaller take

01:26:31   Boats and not planes, right? And so how do you make a dent in the big picture?

01:26:36   Keep products for longer like don't throw them away. Don't recycle them

01:26:41   Don't don't don't initiate that churn in the whole machinery of like now

01:26:45   we have to re harvest the cobalt from those batteries and send it through a factory and reset like

01:26:49   Slow that down make the products last longer in the customers hands that makes Apple less money

01:26:55   Then you got to figure out a way to charge more like that's that's the pitch

01:26:57   the pitch is like you're never gonna make a dent in the environment by just

01:27:01   Like using a better plastic for your cables, right?

01:27:05   But having everyone keep their iPhones for one extra year would make such a huge

01:27:09   Impact on the environment that it would just like if they have some environmental goals that they want to get to

01:27:14   that's the only way you really move needle like making the box is smaller and

01:27:18   selling fewer of them for more money

01:27:20   Do the Jerry Maguire code Casey? Do you know this one? Jerry Maguire, please? I can't ask Marco. He doesn't know

01:27:27   I I've seen it once a long time ago, but show me the money John

01:27:30   No, that's the part everyone remembers

01:27:32   But the part I remember of him it is remember he writes a a memo to the company and send it to the whole company

01:27:36   It's not a memory says the mission statement. Do you remember that? I don't know. Anyway, his his pitch he worked

01:27:42   He's a sports agent Marco. You heard this conference Tom Cruise playing the lead

01:27:45   He's a sports agent and you know, this company is like they get all that they sign all the big-name athletes and take a percentage

01:27:50   Of their money or whatever. It's sport agents, right? His memo. Here's the pitch in his memo

01:27:54   Fewer clients less money. I may be misquoting it but as you can imagine that picture does not go over well in HQ

01:28:02   What I'm saying to Tim Cook is

01:28:05   fewer products but more money

01:28:11   Thank you to our sponsors this week trade coffee green chef and collide and thanks to our members who support us directly

01:28:18   You can join us at ATP that FM slash join and we will talk to you next week

01:28:24   Now the show is over they didn't even mean to begin because it was accidental

01:28:34   Accidental

01:28:39   Research Marco and Casey wouldn't let him because it was accidental

01:28:45   was accidental

01:28:48   And you can find the show notes at ATP

01:28:52   And if you're into Twitter you can follow them

01:28:58   Cas ey l is s so that's Casey lists and a RC o a r m

01:29:07   anti Marco Arman s I are a see

01:29:12   USA, Syracuse

01:29:15   We have a lot to talk about we need to do a trip recap and

01:29:30   And none of what we're talking about will have to do with the lab, but everything else we can talk about

01:29:36   indeed

01:29:38   We about I don't know. It's like a month month and a half ago

01:29:41   I realized that there are vision Pro labs in New York, which we cannot talk about wait

01:29:47   I think I can say I'm very happy that Apple brought these to New York

01:29:52   So I didn't have to fly to California that I was dreading like when they announced the labs in I believe early fall

01:29:58   They announced with you know, the locations and or late summer. No, I think it was still in the summer. It was it was early

01:30:03   They they had labs in like a few places around the world

01:30:07   But the closest places to the East Coast were either California or I think London was like not that much further

01:30:14   And that was it like there was nothing anywhere on the East Coast

01:30:18   So then they later in the fall

01:30:22   added New York City labs and I'm very very thankful for that because I

01:30:27   Would all fall like, you know

01:30:29   I had this all this stuff going on in my life with the move and everything and I'm like the last thing I need

01:30:33   Is to have to fly to California this winter like it's for some few days span here and there to get you know an unknown

01:30:41   Amount of unknown experience with this unknown device like, you know

01:30:45   It was that was a big I was dreading having to do that and I was I was afraid

01:30:50   You know of that eventuality and by move by having options in New York that made everything

01:30:55   Dramatically easier for those of us on the East Coast. So thank you Apple for that. Yep, indeed

01:31:00   And so we both registered for labs on the same day

01:31:04   This was I think Thursday the 30th or something like that something somewhere around then and sure enough

01:31:08   We both got selected. So we got to go to the lab

01:31:10   I got there by doing the most un-American thing that I have done in a long time. I

01:31:16   took a train and

01:31:18   Did you know like watch soccer on the way like no, I should have excuse me, sir. It's football. Thank you very much

01:31:24   But no, I did not watch any soccer on the way

01:31:27   But did you know the trains are actually freaking great who knew why didn't the Europeans say something about this?

01:31:32   We should have been no we should have been told we should have been told well, their trains are great

01:31:36   I don't know how great ours

01:31:38   Well, it's funny you say that because I dedicated I dedicated an entire day to

01:31:43   traveling up and then an entire day to traveling back and I got on the train here in Richmond and

01:31:49   I got off the train in Penn Station and then you know reverse the trip two days later

01:31:54   And I got to tell you it was pretty freaking great like when I travel via plane

01:31:59   I am a ball of stress

01:32:02   Charitably from the moment I leave the house, but realistically from the moment. I opened my eyes in the morning

01:32:08   I am just a walking stress ball and

01:32:10   When I took the train I

01:32:14   Left the house

01:32:15   I got a ride from a friend because Aaron was dropping the kids off at the school at the time and

01:32:18   I walked into the train station waited a few minutes and I walked on the train and

01:32:22   Then I walked around the train when I wanted to walk around the train

01:32:25   I went to the cafe car when I want to wanted to go to the cafe car and then eventually I got to New York

01:32:30   Now admittedly I did get there like 90 minutes late

01:32:32   But nevertheless I got to New York and it was pretty freaking great

01:32:36   I know that you know a lot of the reason that we can't have good trains here is because we are not say compared to

01:32:42   You know Great Britain. We are not a wee island nation, but nevertheless

01:32:46   In the areas where there are trains, they're pretty great and that's pretty awesome

01:32:51   So Marco and I we arrived in Manhattan and Marco

01:32:55   What is the one obvious thing that you and I should do if we're in Manhattan around dinnertime?

01:32:58   Well, I mean, I think it's only it's only fair that I have to figure out I have to try this amazing

01:33:03   Life-changing wonderful pizza that you are constantly raving about is the best pizza in New York and it changed your life

01:33:12   You already tried it. We already tried it

01:33:17   Yeah, so non members might I know that we for we we did actually try Casey's pizza

01:33:23   Frozen on a member special shipped to us via Goldbelly and you can listen to the member special at e-mail

01:33:30   Slash join to hear how that went

01:33:32   But but I will spoil it slightly and say I don't think it went super well for a Casey's

01:33:37   It honestly even even myself and my family who had had like Aaron's had Johnson Bleeker many times and

01:33:47   I and I the kids have had once they had had mail-order pizza that a friend had gifted me which is very kind

01:33:54   But even we said, you know what the ones that were sent

01:33:59   For the member special were okay, like they were still good in our opinion, but they were not stellar

01:34:06   And so what did we do? We went the two of us to John's a bleaker and I I genuinely don't know although I have a theory

01:34:14   I don't know if Marco just put on the happy face when he was there or if he legitimately legitimately thought it was good

01:34:21   But I think it's the latter. I think you and I'm gonna give you a chance a second

01:34:24   I feel like you legitimately thought it was good, but one way or another we had Johnson Bleeker

01:34:29   There was a brief question as to whether we should get the larger of the two of the available sizes or the smaller

01:34:34   There was no question that well there really wasn't I thought there was a question and you immediately said get the larger one

01:34:41   You had a question. I had an answer

01:34:44   Exactly, you always get the biggest pizza

01:34:46   No one ever says I wish you ordered less pizza, right always get the biggest pizza

01:34:51   So that's what we did and it was a critical

01:34:55   decision on Marcos part because between the two of us we ate the entire pizza and

01:35:00   Tim for me and I promise I'm gonna give you a chance here for me. It was

01:35:05   Just perfect. I mean it is the same restaurant

01:35:10   It's always been I mean, I think they strictly speaking change the entrance a little bit or added an entrance if you will

01:35:15   Because we went in not the normal entrance that I'm used to from literally a decade ago

01:35:19   But but in spirit it is effectively the same restaurant. The pizza was the same. I remembered it

01:35:25   It was so so good and I am so glad that

01:35:30   Whether whatever you thought on the spectrum

01:35:33   I'm so glad that at least you got to experience it the real way the proper way

01:35:37   So to Marcos credit at the time, you know, of course

01:35:40   I interrogated him about it and he very much put on the happy face to the point that it seemed legitimate to me that you

01:35:46   Genuinely enjoyed it now that I am no longer within arm's reach so I can't punch you in the face

01:35:50   If you if you say you don't like it, what did you actually think? I liked it, but oh

01:35:56   Come on, I think the environment like the the actual restaurant, you know, it's this classic old

01:36:04   East Village restaurant it has like their stuff all over the walls

01:36:07   Like it's like, you know, there's pictures of all the celebrities who have been there

01:36:10   Everyone's like carved their initials into the wooden benches and everything

01:36:14   So there's like there's a lot of personality in the actual restaurant call that ambiance

01:36:19   Yeah, and you know when you see something like this, that's always fun

01:36:22   No matter where you find that kind of personality in any kind of restaurant

01:36:25   That's always fun when you find that when it's genuine when it isn't just like, you know

01:36:28   Some Chili's has there has you know created this across the across America artificially like it's not that

01:36:34   It's the real thing like this. You could tell this place had real history

01:36:37   I like that like, you know, it's it's a Manhattan small restaurant crammed full tables

01:36:43   I like that it was crammed so full of tables that our neighboring table to us was actually just like

01:36:49   You know a foot away so we could totally hear everything they were saying they could totally hear everything

01:36:53   We were saying we actually talked to them for part of the meal

01:36:55   I like that kind of thing

01:36:57   Like where it's you're kind of like forced to be communal with the people around you because it's just that crammed in

01:37:01   See also the Hofbrau house that we went to in Munich. I really enjoyed it for that reason. Yes, that's true actually

01:37:06   But anyway, so I really enjoyed

01:37:09   The the place and the the atmosphere I the experience of it. It's it is an experience

01:37:16   The pizza was good

01:37:18   But first of all, it is different from what most New York style pizza tends to be these days

01:37:25   Mainly it is it does not have the same crust style

01:37:29   Yeah, we noticed that when it was frozen that the crust was not like that

01:37:32   Usually you expect it to be flat flat pizza and then like a rounded crust. That's sure something York style. Yeah

01:37:37   Yeah, yeah, and we could tell that it was flatter than that

01:37:39   It's more of a what they call like coal-fired type of pizza where it's got the leopard spotting on the bottom

01:37:45   Yeah, it's it's like a it's like a like a wood oven like, you know that like the yeah

01:37:48   It's that that kind of pizza. It's almost like a large personal pizza, you know

01:37:52   And even their biggest pie was by most pizza places in New York. I would call it a medium or

01:37:59   Yeah, that's probably fair. And by the way, what do you call Frank Pepe's is also like this if you ever had their pizza

01:38:05   It is also not New York style obvious is not New York style

01:38:08   It's not New York pizza, but like it it has the same crust profile

01:38:11   I realized that because we got we have a local instance of and I get pizza from there occasionally

01:38:15   I'm like, you know what this this reminds me of the not the taste doesn't taste like John's little bleaker

01:38:19   But the shape of the crust is like it. Yeah

01:38:21   But anyway, it was better than the frozen version by by a decent margin like I would hope so. Yeah

01:38:28   But you know, it was it was not perfect. They did burn part of the crust. I noticed that mmm some people like that

01:38:34   Yeah, it's a choice, you know, but I just I enjoyed the atmosphere

01:38:39   This is a place that you go for the atmosphere and the history first and the food second

01:38:45   But that doesn't that isn't meant to be an insult. The food was good, but not super memorable

01:38:50   But the atmosphere and and that everything around the experience was very memorable. So that was really great. I

01:38:57   Really appreciated that it was very fun. I would totally go back

01:39:01   I even we are our current like, you know time-wasting TV show is friends and

01:39:06   Like in some of the b-roll and friends it showed the East Village and it showed like the old John's a bleaker sign

01:39:13   I'm like, oh I know where that is now. That's awesome

01:39:15   But anyway, so it was a great experience. I would absolutely go back there

01:39:20   But the pizza itself it was good

01:39:24   But if you if you're in New York, you can get good pizza every 15 feet

01:39:29   And so it's there it wasn't better than everyone else's pizza

01:39:32   It was just good New York pizza in a really great experience

01:39:36   No, and I appreciate that and I think that that's a fair characterization

01:39:39   Well, it was it was good pizza in New York, but it wasn't as you pointed out

01:39:42   It wasn't like stereotypical New York pizza. That's that's true

01:39:45   Good thing that I feel like that's a change in my lifetime is that there is more non New York pizza in New York City

01:39:51   You know, I mean like different kinds of pizza more sort of like again the sort of you know

01:39:56   Coal-fired artisanal leopard spotted bottom that was that's not traditional New York pizza and there's way more of that now than there used to be

01:40:02   That's true. Yeah, I'll give you that too that that you know, if if what you're picturing is

01:40:07   New York pizza, this is not the style of pizza you're picturing

01:40:10   It's it's close, but it's not the same thing and like, you know what you're picturing by New York pizza

01:40:16   Usually with those words is what slice places serve, you know

01:40:20   The big puffy crust the pretty large slice with you know, like the very even cheese lately

01:40:26   That's what you're picturing. That's not what they serve there, but what they serve there is good

01:40:31   But you're like for me, I'm I would go there for the experience first

01:40:35   Not you know, not not that I have to have that particular pizza

01:40:39   Well, I think that's fair. But I'm glad I'm genuinely glad that that you got to go

01:40:44   I'm glad that you don't associate Johnson bleaker with the admittedly subpar frozen meal experience that costs so much money

01:40:51   So I'm glad that that you know, your opinion has changed for the better

01:40:56   And but yeah, so after that, you know, we went back and had a drink at the hotel bar, which was weird but fun

01:41:01   And then yeah, we went to the lab which we cannot speak of and then Mark would had the idea a few days

01:41:08   I guess a week or two before

01:41:10   Hey, we're gonna be so close

01:41:13   And why don't we stay at the beach house and after the lab and so that's what we did and we

01:41:19   We took the subway up to Grand Central, which by the way, I had yet to experience

01:41:23   Express transit and that was super cool the last time I had been in Manhattan

01:41:27   I needed to go and buy myself a metro card

01:41:30   Then you had to do the arithmetic to figure out whether or not you wanted like an unlimited card or a single fare or what?

01:41:35   Have you and I just swiped my phone and it was great

01:41:37   Yeah

01:41:38   It was awesome because now like now all the the entire New York subway system now has like just regular phone Apple pay kind of

01:41:44   Support and that Express transit thing where you don't even have to like activate it first

01:41:47   It was so nice to have that because it took him a while to build it out to all the stations and

01:41:53   That was a very nice change. Yeah, it was really great

01:41:56   So then we went to Grand Central then we got on Long Island Railroad and then we arrived at the car

01:42:01   Which I know this isn't unique to an electric car, but it is pretty delightful and Aaron's car can do this

01:42:07   John's cars can't my car can't because you can't do this with a stick

01:42:10   But it is pretty delightful

01:42:12   Getting into a car that is already heated on a cold day

01:42:15   Like I cannot do that my car and John you can't either because they would roll away if you started them remotely because you leave them

01:42:20   In gear, but it is pretty nice and and that was quite delightful. So

01:42:25   Where do you go?

01:42:27   If you find yourself on Long Island for in my case the first time in in 20 ish years

01:42:33   Well, obviously you go to Emilio's that's what you do

01:42:36   Which should be for listeners. That's John Syracuse's favorite pizza place

01:42:40   Indeed. We went to Emilio's which is John's beloved pizza place from his youth one of two one of two beloved

01:42:47   Okay, fair enough. And so we went to Emilio's it looked to me as though this place had been freshened up

01:42:55   Sometime in the last 60 years, but it did not appear to me that it had been meaningfully changed in

01:43:01   It has been changed multiple times when I lived there and multiple times since I've gone. So yes

01:43:06   Physically the place has changed a lot

01:43:09   well, either way we went in and we got some slices which is the thing you cannot do at John's and

01:43:14   We got a corner piece a Sicilian corner piece. We got what else did we get?

01:43:21   Shoot we got some garlic knots which I am very grumpy by the way Marco

01:43:26   I didn't tell you this

01:43:26   Very grumpy that I didn't either

01:43:28   Steal those and take them home or at least have one in the morning and you had gotten them out for me if I'm not mistaken

01:43:32   I got a man for breakfast and then I completely forgot about it

01:43:34   And I'm very grumpy that I didn't have any more of them, but that's my fault. Not yours

01:43:37   So we got garlic knots. We got the Sicilian slice. I should just pull up the picture

01:43:41   We got a slice that Tina was very enthusiastic about us trying the first

01:43:45   Yeah, something like that's it. She's a big fan of the Crispino that you you found out the dangers of the Crispino bike buying it

01:43:53   Yeah

01:43:53   It's basically like fresh sliced tomato fresh mozzarella dollop and some sweet red peppers on a crust

01:44:00   That's supposed to be crispy. But yes, just put a lot of watery stuff on it. Yes

01:44:04   Quickly fell apart. Yeah, and then a couple of slices of you know, we're traditional, you know, triangular pizza

01:44:10   I don't even remember what specifically was but it was all like a margarita style but with like yes and basil in it

01:44:15   So yeah, I think I came to this the way Marco came to John's which isn't a bad thing

01:44:20   But I don't have 20 30 years of nostalgia powering me in this experience. It was

01:44:26   Unquestionably very very good that Crispino whatever. It was a little soggy

01:44:31   Like you had said, you know, but both of you gentlemen have said it was you know

01:44:34   Trying a little too hard to keep away all of that moisture and it just it lost the fight

01:44:39   Especially if you're getting crispy if you're buying it by the slice that's been sitting there for a while

01:44:43   So you would you really want it? It needs to be fresh on a sense. It's very to get pulled off

01:44:48   Yeah, but it was very very good

01:44:52   I mean, I'll take John's any day of the week and twice on Sunday

01:44:54   But you're also fighting and I would have said speaking of the garlic knots if you can get one of those Sicilian slices

01:44:58   Don't even need it. Just bring it home wrap it in foil and reheat it in your toaster oven the next day

01:45:03   So good. I don't have to I could just go there every day if I want to

01:45:06   It's like lasagna in that way. I feel like it is better reheated at home

01:45:11   Oh, there's not a lot like that and I'd buy it. I would definitely buy that. This is one of those things

01:45:15   It was very very good. I would take John's but you're fighting 20 years of nostalgia. There's no way 30 years in nostalgia

01:45:20   There's no way gonna beat that but it was unquestionably extremely good. It was very fast people. They were very nice

01:45:26   I I would absolutely without a shadow of a go back if I find myself going to Fire Island again anytime soon

01:45:32   I will probably ask Marco to facilitate either, you know

01:45:34   We take out order or have us eat in at Emilio's because it was really good

01:45:38   They do have a restaurant there as well like so the restaurant I

01:45:41   So the restaurant had a couple of interesting dishes that I remember vaguely fondly from my youth, but the restaurant is weird

01:45:47   Like okay, so yeah the other thing so there's Emilio's and there's branch and Ellie's and this is weird family history between them

01:45:54   But the bottom line is the pizza at least the Sicilian pizza is the same in both of them

01:45:58   Which is super weird, but not that far from each other

01:46:00   And again, this there's a family relation or there's some kind of falling out about ownership

01:46:04   anyway

01:46:04   the restaurants branch and Ellie's is a sit-down restaurant and Emilio's has a stat restaurant and those restaurants are

01:46:09   Nothing like each other and the branch and eyes restaurant. I could mostly endorse for straight up the middle

01:46:14   very

01:46:16   You know bog standard old-style Italian restaurant and Emilio's has always wanted to be a little fancier as you can probably tell from the decor

01:46:23   They just felt like they've been a little bit fancier. They put some sun-dried tomatoes in your pasta in 1994. Ooh

01:46:28   You know, that's what Emilio's is there's still some good stuff in that menu I think but it's definitely different

01:46:36   So if you're gonna sit down if you want to go to a sit-down Italian place go to branch and Ellie's across my old high

01:46:41   School and try that but the pizza is pretty much the same both places

01:46:43   No, Crispino at branch and Ellie's though. It probably fell apart on the way there. But no it was it was good

01:46:48   It was definitely good. Definitely glad we did it and it was it was a lot of fun

01:46:53   I think we so hungry with all this pizza talk. You're killing me

01:46:55   I know I know you could have had some as I said to Tina

01:46:58   Speaking of something that would probably keep freeze that Sicilian and ship it to me go belly. Where are you? I

01:47:04   Said I said to Tina who I enlisted numerous times to try to convince your sorry pain

01:47:10   I'm painting my butt to come and visit us and happen

01:47:12   You're the worst but I said to her the following day

01:47:15   I think the day I got home, you know, John could have been having leftover Emilio's right now

01:47:19   He could have but he chose not to and that's on you John. That's on you. I'll be down there this summer

01:47:24   So anyway, so we go to bed that night

01:47:26   We actually I don't think we have time to talk about it now

01:47:29   But Marco did something truly terrible and a good friend would not have done this

01:47:33   But I asked him to play for me

01:47:35   Sono Sarah 100s and eventually sono Sarah 300s and we don't have time to believe it right now

01:47:40   But my god, I regret having listened to both of those because holy crap

01:47:44   They sound so good and you are terrible human for having indulged me in that. So thank you. But no, thank you, sir

01:47:49   You're welcome

01:47:51   Nevertheless, they're really in phenomenal speakers. I'm really stunned by them and I and I know Sonos pretty well at this point

01:47:58   I'm still stunned but the next day we wake up and you know

01:48:01   I was treated to a very beautiful sunrise which was lovely and you know, mark when I chatted we we had breakfast

01:48:07   I made myself some scrambled eggs and Marco insisted that I put some boom-boom sauce on it and I gotta tell you

01:48:12   It's pretty tasty on scrambled eggs

01:48:14   You skipped out when you went to his house he drove you across the sand right wasn't that fun it was but it was dark

01:48:22   So well, like even more fun to see the deer jumping out in front of you

01:48:25   But yeah, I mean it was enjoyable and it was not as terrible as I expected actually

01:48:31   I should say it is when you had talked Marco about driving on the sand

01:48:35   I think I said this to you that night what I envisioned was the sand of a summer beach

01:48:41   Where it is flat

01:48:43   And there's like maybe one set of tracks from like the quad or whatever vehicle is used to collect trash

01:48:50   But this is not a summer beach Marco

01:48:52   This is a winter beach and the winter beach is nothing but ruts as far as the eye can see and that

01:48:58   I did not expect again. Once you think about it for even a flash. It's quite obvious

01:49:02   That's what's gonna happen

01:49:03   But I did not expect that and and it was funny watching Marco try to navigate it or since they try to navigate it that implies

01:49:08   You're bad at it. But you know to say oh, well, it would be a little easier over here

01:49:12   But there's a small chance you get sucked into the ocean. So you probably don't want to do that

01:49:16   And in so it was fun and it was informative and interesting but because was so damn dark

01:49:22   There wasn't but so much I could really do other than bounce my way, you know across the sand

01:49:28   So we get up the next morning. We decide we're gonna do a biking tour of the of the town and

01:49:33   You know Marco has his bike and he said hey, you know, would you be cool with you some tips bike?

01:49:38   I was like, yeah, of course, you know, and it's approximately the correct height and I only need it for what 15 minutes

01:49:44   So yeah, absolutely. So Marco starts taking me on this tour

01:49:47   Everything is going well and we are from my recollection

01:49:51   anyway at basically the extreme end of the tour at approximately the time in which we would turn around and

01:49:57   Marco had gotten slightly ahead of me because I'm I'm ridden a bike in years for more than three feet

01:50:02   So I was giving the the bike a little bit extra chutzpah in order to catch up and all of a sudden I realized well

01:50:07   That doesn't feel right this particular bike is belt driven. But you know, you could think of it as chain driven

01:50:12   It's the same basic principle and it appears that somehow I have popped the belt off of the rear sprocket

01:50:18   So here it is. I have borrowed Tiff's bike and I've now broken her bike

01:50:25   We pull over I mean we were on a like a deck or a walking path or something like that

01:50:29   We pull over we quickly ascertain that yes, this is you know, presumably repairable, but nevertheless it is broken and

01:50:36   I'm thinking to myself

01:50:38   well

01:50:39   This is undesirable because I do need to at some point get to a train station and although I thought we had more than enough

01:50:45   Time to walk the bikes back to his house

01:50:47   We are at the after all the extreme end of the journey and that's going to take a lot more time than I think either

01:50:52   Of us had allotted for this particular extravaganzas, but that's okay

01:50:56   So Marco and I fiddle with the belt a little bit and we were able to get it on enough

01:51:00   For me to you know, basically limp at home that works out just fine. We get to Marco's Beach House

01:51:05   We make a I was gonna say half-hearted attempt

01:51:08   It was a full-hearted attempt but over extremely short amount of time to repair the bike and we were not successful

01:51:15   unfortunately, so

01:51:17   The bike is as per our discussion before we got on the show still in a state of disrepair and it is still my fault

01:51:23   And I still I mean to me bad about it to be clear

01:51:27   I said it was no big deal. This spike is it's you know, it's a very old belt driven priority coast bike

01:51:33   It's probably a 10-minute fix. Yeah, I don't yet have the time to give it those 10 minutes

01:51:38   But and it isn't that pressing but literally the belt just fell off the rear thing

01:51:44   Like I we couldn't put it back on like by fingers because I have to probably move the rear thing

01:51:49   To let the belt get back onto it, but that's fine. It like it'll take me like 10 minutes

01:51:55   Yeah, but I'd still feel bad. I felt bad. I feel that's it. Look look

01:52:00   I don't I don't talk about you know bikes much but I tell you what the the priority bikes and bikes with belts in general are

01:52:06   Amazing and I can strongly recommend unless you have a reason you need a chain

01:52:12   And there are there are some some instances where change are still better unless you have a reason you need a chain

01:52:17   Go belt next time you have to buy a bike

01:52:19   It's so nice and I can strongly recommend priority bikes in general

01:52:24   They've we have a whole bunch of them and they've been wonderful. Yep

01:52:27   So apologies again public apologies this time to TIFF for at least temporarily breaking her bicycle. That was certainly not my intention

01:52:34   I don't think it was from negligence or anything like that. It was just a

01:52:37   crummy set of circumstances, but here we are and I do feel bad about it, but

01:52:41   It's fine. We make it back into into Marcos credit

01:52:45   He has been super chill from the moment it happened until this very moment super chill about the whole thing. Not his bike

01:52:49   It's not his bike. Right, right

01:52:51   well about that so

01:52:54   Ostensibly it was not the point for me

01:52:57   But I think a lot of the point for Marco

01:52:59   For us going back all the way back from Manhattan to the beach only for me to return the following day

01:53:04   Like 12 hours later was for me to have an opportunity to drive his truck on the beach

01:53:10   And so now it is daytime

01:53:12   We have left behind a lightly broken bicycle

01:53:15   But nevertheless we set off Marco says to me in a very kind way

01:53:20   I think it's for the best if I drive us from the house to the sand

01:53:26   I think I would have lasted five feet if I was in the driver's seat before I said no actually I'm good

01:53:31   You did you take care of this because the clearances for a freaking Rivian are not great

01:53:38   Driving around your wee little beach town it it gave me all the shivers watching watching you very deftly

01:53:45   But nevertheless it gave me all the shivers watching you navigate out to the beach

01:53:49   but nevertheless we get to the beach we switch drivers and next thing, you know, I am heading to the beach and

01:53:55   We I guess there's several different places that you can hop from like the kind of more inland area onto the beach and Marco

01:54:02   Please interrupt me when you're ready

01:54:04   and we had aimed for one and we didn't we didn't look closely at the tides or the calendar or anything like that and

01:54:11   As we rose

01:54:13   Crested over the hill to eventually go down the dune onto the beach Marco says whoa

01:54:18   And I was not looking more than like 10 feet in front of the car

01:54:22   So I didn't really understand the issue was but Marcus is hold on. Hold on and I look out and I realized oh

01:54:28   There's not much beach there as it turns out because it was high tide and as much as I would have loved to you know

01:54:34   bombing up the water and down the beach and so on and so forth that did not seem like a good way to start my

01:54:39   first beach driving experience and so

01:54:41   You know, we reversed our way back. We went through the inland area a little bit further

01:54:45   And then eventually we wound up on the beach proper we get to the beach proper

01:54:50   The Rivian is laughing at everything as am I actually is laughing at everything it is that is being put in front of it

01:54:58   Everything is going swimmingly. I am behaving I have not at this point started trying to do drifts or anything like that

01:55:05   I haven't tried to you know fishtail on purpose or anything that nature at this point

01:55:10   I'm just trying to get us up the beach because it is not

01:55:14   Challenging, but it is certainly more challenging than one would expect. You have a lot less control than you think you would. Yep

01:55:22   yeah, it's I guess the best analogy I can give is

01:55:26   Imagine if you were driving in quite deep snow

01:55:29   but

01:55:30   Thicker or perhaps heavier or just more resistive anyway like sand and snow like sandy if you will then snow typically is

01:55:38   Right. And so yeah, that's kind of what it was like and once you end up in a rut

01:55:43   Which you know, that's not a bad thing if you're following that somebody else's tracks from earlier

01:55:48   but once you end up there it takes a surprising amount of torque and energy and

01:55:53   Strength if you will to get the car out of that rut and you could arguably I guess that's actually the closest

01:56:00   This car will be to truly self-driving is because you could have taken your hands off the wheel and not even thought about it

01:56:06   At that point but anyways, so we're like two-thirds of the way down the beach, which I don't know

01:56:10   How many miles would you say that is Marco like three or four or five? It's about three

01:56:14   So call it two miles down the beach

01:56:16   I'm getting to the point that I'm trying to eyeball a place that's maybe a little less ruddy and a little

01:56:23   Flatter so I can start doing a little bit of fish tailing and burning out and so on and so forth

01:56:27   I haven't started yet, but I'm eyeballing it and

01:56:29   I noticed at a glance. There's some sort of dialogue

01:56:34   And I quickly read it aloud and I don't remember the exact words

01:56:38   It said but it said something along the lines of air network changed

01:56:42   How did you know

01:56:46   so

01:56:47   It says something along the lines of you know, there's a fault reduced power

01:56:52   I'm sorry what and so I said well I said to Marco

01:56:55   Oh, I just read this and then sure enough somewhere on the dash. It says, you know reduced power top speed

01:57:01   I think was 19 miles an hour. It probably deactivated some of the cylinders that yeah, that's what happens

01:57:05   It's at least two of the eight cylinders, right?

01:57:07   So yeah

01:57:09   So next thing I know

01:57:10   The car is now in as I later found out from from a friend who works at Rivian actually

01:57:16   It's colloquially referred to as turtle mode

01:57:19   And so I'm now in turtle mode and limited to 19 miles an hour now on the sand

01:57:23   19 miles an hour is sufficient like that. I didn't really need to go. I wasn't really going more

01:57:27   Yeah, that's about as fast as I go most of the time right exactly. So so far no big deal. However

01:57:33   At some point we need to leave the sand and as I said getting out of a rut

01:57:39   Requires a surprising amount of torque which means a surprising amount of depth if you will to the accelerator pedal

01:57:45   I don't know what's going on. Marco doesn't know what's going on. I said to him at the top well later

01:57:50   I said to him and I will say again now publicly I

01:57:53   am so thankful that

01:57:55   It was Marco's car in Marco

01:57:57   In Marco in the passenger seat for this because had the roles been reversed

01:58:02   I would not have been chill like Marco was because Marco was extremely chill shatter that windshield in a second with your phone

01:58:08   Marco was extremely chill

01:58:12   extraordinarily chill and

01:58:16   First of all, I'm already dying and second of all if this was my car

01:58:20   I don't know if I would have been better or worse like it. I it was it would have been terrible

01:58:25   so thankfully Marco had the presence of mind and

01:58:27   To just chill because I was probably enough stress for both of us. Did you just reboot in safe mode?

01:58:33   Well done the shift key on the steering wheel

01:58:36   Would you slow down? This is my story John and you're ruining it because that's exactly what we did as soon as we got off the

01:58:41   Sand tech skills come in handy again, right? So we pull off into the area where I guess Marco

01:58:47   You had told me at the time that people you know

01:58:48   Reinflate their tires or what have you so we figure out how to reboot the thing we reboot the thing and at this point

01:58:53   I am dying because this is Marco's effectively brand new car

01:58:59   That I have now broken not to mention the fucking bike that I just broke half an hour ago

01:59:05   So this is not a good this is not a good morning for your guy. I am not happy

01:59:10   This is something like I have had such a wonderful time with one of my best and oldest friends for the last 48 hours

01:59:15   And this is how I'm leaving him is well Marco. Enjoy your broken bike and broken car

01:59:20   Also, not only that also you're gonna miss your train

01:59:24   Not only that we have to go on what I would call an interstate

01:59:28   I think Marco would call it a highway you weirdo Californians call it a freeway

01:59:31   We have to go on one of those things where you're supposed to be doing like 65 70 miles an hour

01:59:34   Yeah, that that was my biggest worry because like at this time like it was saying like, you know contact Rivian service

01:59:41   And I'm like, okay

01:59:42   well

01:59:42   if my car can only ever go 20 miles an hour until I go get it serviced somehow like first of all

01:59:47   You have to get it serviced off the beach like the Rivian mobile service vans can't come on to the beach

01:59:52   They don't have a permit so like so they I would have to keep get off the beach anyway

01:59:56   But to get it off the beach requires going over a couple of bridges and highways

02:00:01   And so like I'm like, okay first I have to get through that at 20 miles an hour

02:00:05   You know probably very much angering everybody around me and possibly being a safety hazard

02:00:09   And then second of all like well, then where do I go?

02:00:12   What I'm like, I really hope I don't have to bring this to a service center and it would be you know

02:00:17   A logistical challenge to do that

02:00:19   But then second of all we had time this all out for you to make this train at a train station

02:00:24   That is you know, ten minutes away at 60 miles an hour

02:00:28   But you know, how are we gonna get there now in some kind of reasonably safe way at 20 miles an hour

02:00:36   Right why you needed me here you're planning trips without enough, you know safety margin for you to get a flat tire or whatever

02:00:43   Well, normally I do have that kind of margin

02:00:45   But this this was a hyper compressed trip

02:00:47   And so I was doing my best to try to do everything and yet, you know have enough time for almost nothing

02:00:52   I also should mention I skipped a step as we're as Marco and I are discussing how to proceed with you know

02:00:58   Turtle mode Marco says to me very sternly very politely, but very sternly

02:01:04   Please don't stop because if you stop then there's a very good likelihood

02:01:09   We're gonna need a tow and that ain't gonna happen anytime soon like you were saying a moment ago

02:01:13   You know

02:01:14   You're not exactly going to find a tow truck that is going to want to or perhaps even be capable of getting onto the beach

02:01:20   so that was advice that I took to heart quite seriously and quite immediately and

02:01:25   Very much made sure that no matter what happened. I was always making forward progress. Yeah, that was really weird

02:01:32   I'm like, you know, whatever whatever error code the car is throwing or whatever subsystem is failing if you stop it might not let you start

02:01:38   again, right

02:01:39   So again, Mark was extremely chill and I'm so very thankful that you were because I was into some degree

02:01:45   Large large degree remain a walking ball stress about all this. But anyway

02:01:49   We do we do the reboot we take off and it's clear immediately

02:01:54   things are still not right and I am really starting to want to crawl in a hole and die and

02:02:00   We had made it. I don't know a few hundred feet. I don't know maybe a quarter mile at most

02:02:05   I feel like all of a sudden it felt like like you had pressed the accelerator harder

02:02:10   Yes

02:02:10   and I knew that you didn't and

02:02:12   About that same time that I was like, oh then you looked at me you looked down or looked at me or whatever and said

02:02:17   Oh, oh, oh, we're back next thing, you know, we're back and better than ever baby and

02:02:21   And we were able to make it to Babylon train station. No problem and life was good

02:02:28   Outside of the fact that I murdered Tiff's bike and I almost murdered Marco's brand-new car

02:02:32   I had a very enjoyable trip and I'm really glad that I went but oh my word that morning was

02:02:38   Something it was something else. It was not your day

02:02:42   What was the problem with the car?

02:02:45   I I don't know I so I actually called Rivian because when when we when I when I did the reboot and when it showed that

02:02:51   Message a brief message appeared on screen that says something like captured diagnostic. Yeah, I figured the car took a cyst diagnosed

02:02:58   right

02:02:59   Put it on the feedback. Yeah, so so I figure you know, okay

02:03:02   Well, that probably means it's being uploaded somewhere maybe because it's a very connected car

02:03:06   So I gave it like, you know a few days and I called them like hey, by the way

02:03:10   This thing happened on this day at this time. It said a captured diagnostic

02:03:14   Can you tell me anything more about like what actually the problem was?

02:03:17   So maybe I can like avoid some something like you know, maybe did the motors overheat did the suspension over?

02:03:24   Like, you know, what what could have what could this have been?

02:03:27   That's related to Casey, you know, like blaming himself and say well Casey, but you just you're just driving the car, right?

02:03:35   It's an off-road vehicle and you were off road and you were driving it in a straight line

02:03:40   Yeah, and I think and and by the way and like in between like since he since this happened

02:03:45   I have driven across the sand on the same route

02:03:47   probably seven or eight times and

02:03:51   It's been fine and I'm not like babying the car more than necessary

02:03:55   I'm doing everything exactly the same that I always do it and it's been a hundred percent fine. So I don't know what happened

02:04:02   But anyway

02:04:05   I called Rivian and and they they basically said they can't really look at it remotely like they don't have access and like I

02:04:11   Like bring it to a service center to you know, figure out what actually happened

02:04:15   So I'm not gonna do that

02:04:16   But if it happens again, obviously then I will because other than other than that one little weird thing that happened when Casey was driving

02:04:24   it's been an amazing sand vehicle it has been a

02:04:27   Ridiculously good off-roader for this context like and like the the Land Rover Defender was a very very good off-road vehicle

02:04:36   This for the sand I can't speak to other offered needs

02:04:40   But for the sand the Rivian is even better by by a significant margin

02:04:44   That's saying a lot because the defender was really good. But the Rivian as a sand vehicle is

02:04:49   Awesome. It is so good. It has so much power so much traction

02:04:55   It is just a ridiculously good sand vehicle

02:04:58   And that's why I like I want to I want to know what happened because if if something if whatever happened was like oh

02:05:04   I made the motors to her case made the motors too hot

02:05:06   It shows you the motor temperature on the off-road, you know extra gauge cluster thing so I can watch that

02:05:12   I actually I have been watching that like since since then I've been watching to see like

02:05:15   All right, if I drive it kind of harder in the sand, you know, this temperature goes up to like, you know

02:05:19   190 degrees is that too much? I don't know. I still I haven't seen the error case happen again

02:05:25   So I can't tell you you know, but who knows? I don't know. I wish I knew what happened

02:05:31   But it nothing bad has happened since then. So

02:05:35   Okay, I guess no, right, right

02:05:38   Yeah, it I wish I knew I don't know if maybe like a chunk of sand lodged itself somewhere the other interesting piece

02:05:46   Which probably was unrelated but the only other thing I saw or that we saw

02:05:50   The auto hold feature where you come to a stop and the car holds the brakes for you

02:05:55   You can take your foot off the brake, but you don't move

02:05:57   It explicitly said that that was disabled which made me wonder

02:06:01   Hey

02:06:02   it could be like the air suspension or something like that like Markowitz said a minute ago or

02:06:06   Perhaps is there something with the brakes that got upset and it just didn't want to get this

02:06:10   900,000 pound vehicle going more than 20 miles an hour

02:06:13   I don't know nothing about the brakes felt wrong to me when I was driving it

02:06:17   But I mean I wasn't really getting on the brakes much because I didn't want to freakin stop

02:06:21   But generally on the sand you don't want to use a lot of braking. It makes you dig in and get stuck

02:06:27   So it seemed fine to me

02:06:29   I don't know it as it turns out it appears that everything worked out

02:06:33   You know it's if spike at least at the moment notwithstanding, but huh that was it was not my morning y'all not my morning

02:06:40   Well, thanks for visiting

02:06:42   But but yeah, it was it was really lovely to

02:06:47   Spend time in New York, which I hadn't done in quite some time

02:06:51   It was lovely to spend time with Marco which I haven't I mean we hadn't been together since 2019, which is criminal

02:06:57   I tell you but nevertheless it was great to see the beach house. It was great to get the the tour

02:07:03   of the beach town

02:07:04   and I'm so glad that even though I went up on a Wednesday came down on a Friday and

02:07:10   Probably should have figured out a way to spend more time both with you and up north in general nevertheless

02:07:15   I'm really glad it worked out, and I'm really glad that we were able to make it happen for both of us and

02:07:19   And hopefully sometime in less than four freaking years

02:07:24   I can get back there and we ate a lot of pizza and we ate way too much pizza, and I have no regrets

02:07:29   Yep, there is no such thing as too much pizza the system works

02:07:32   (beeping)