00:00:20 ◼ ► Because first, I must thank FitBod, Electric, TextExpander and Vitaly for their support
00:00:40 ◼ ► You're familiar with the Wallace and Gromit meme where Gromit is putting the tracks down
00:00:54 ◼ ► I don't know if there is that much thought in my brain before I say it but I'm just talking
00:01:04 ◼ ► Comes from Jason, another one, called, "What kind of uniform does Jason wear for curling?"
00:01:32 ◼ ► Some people get them and they keep them warm and they wear them sometimes, but it's not
00:01:50 ◼ ► And so I wear some of those, you know those Mack Weldon sweatpants that you like, Mike?
00:02:32 ◼ ► I have some Cal stuff and I have a beautiful throwback San Jose Sharks jersey that looks
00:02:54 ◼ ► I care very little for hockey, but wearing a hockey jersey on ice seems like a good idea.
00:03:47 ◼ ► There's just people who are members of the club can wear the jacket that says I'm a member
00:04:05 ◼ ► If you would like to send in a question where Jason says no and then answers for 15 minutes
00:04:20 ◼ ► I would like to take a moment to reference the upgrade is again, you can make your nominations
00:05:07 ◼ ► We have a very good, a very good episode that I'm excited to share with people when the
00:05:27 ◼ ► It's the start of the holidays and the start of the holidays usually means deals and oh
00:05:38 ◼ ► I mean it is a black Friday in the sense that black Friday now extends for multiple weeks
00:05:50 ◼ ► If you like this show and you've heard us talk about upgrade plus before and you thought
00:05:54 ◼ ► to yourself, I would like to hear no ads and I would also like the bonus content, but I
00:06:10 ◼ ► You can get an entire year of upgrade plus by using the code holidays 2024 at checkout.
00:06:16 ◼ ► When you go to get upgrade plus.com you can also give this as a gift to people or if you
00:06:34 ◼ ► just go to get upgrade plus.com sign up for upgrade plus and use the code holidays 2024
00:07:01 ◼ ► You get access to obviously say ad free longer episodes of the show each and every single
00:07:06 ◼ ► week access to relay.com members discord hundreds of hours of bonus content going back all the
00:07:11 ◼ ► way from 2014 2015 when we started doing our member specials every year and you also will
00:07:19 ◼ ► be able to go back and listen to all of the upgrade plus segments from all of the other
00:07:31 ◼ ► Jason, we've got a lot of follow up now a lot of follow up got a lot of follow up where
00:07:44 ◼ ► Okay most of it people were just mad and so it didn't really feel like I wanted to bring
00:07:49 ◼ ► that to the show but there's some where people have got some points about the M3 Pro before
00:07:59 ◼ ► Dr. Warren writes in and says I am an auditory neuroscientist and I have a quick comment
00:08:05 ◼ ► on hearing aids for you and why a lot of people resist wearing them which is something we
00:08:14 ◼ ► It can take several weeks for your brain to get used to a hearing aid as your brain now
00:08:39 ◼ ► I think what we were talking about is more the initial resistance which is people resist
00:08:55 ◼ ► I had no idea about that but I guess it kind of makes sense but I would have just assumed
00:09:14 ◼ ► We mentioned on the last episode that, and I specifically mentioned it, I was surprised
00:09:20 ◼ ► that I feel like we haven't heard about a lot of developer kits going out into the wild.
00:09:25 ◼ ► We put a call out for some anonymous feedback to be given and we have three pieces of anonymous
00:09:38 ◼ ► This is a developer whose app and themselves personally has been featured in several iPad
00:09:58 ◼ ► Well you know they shared it off the record with me but I put it on the record you know
00:10:30 ◼ ► The last one says I can confirm that vision pro development kits have gone out at least
00:10:38 ◼ ► more feedback on the software stack than we are used to in the community from what I've
00:10:43 ◼ ► heard from those who have used it the hardware is pretty finalized but there are software
00:11:16 ◼ ► I was I was given some tough love I was given some cold water I figured the people wouldn't
00:11:44 ◼ ► A computer that literally crashes doing basic multimedia tasks is not a good look especially
00:12:14 ◼ ► What I get is a lot of arguments of but if you have a lot of chrome tabs on it's it gets
00:12:24 ◼ ► I don't know what to tell you first off reputation with whom and secondly Apple always is going
00:12:31 ◼ ► I'll just say because I have a lot of perspective on this that's a nice way of saying I've been
00:12:39 ◼ ► People have been complaining about Apple space models being not what they think they should
00:13:06 ◼ ► Drew's statement also consumers don't need to be geeks to price compare with other brands.
00:13:24 ◼ ► they're going to see 8 gigs of RAM and price compare it with a Dell and buy a Dell it's
00:13:56 ◼ ► For those that buy a Mac from those places they're probably not having the best experience.
00:14:15 ◼ ► It's probably a good experience for the buyer who's buying a Mac at Costco that they would
00:14:28 ◼ ► I don't agree and I think that they're stretching it in order to try to make this more of a
00:14:32 ◼ ► dramatic thing than it is which is there are people who think that Apple should stock their
00:14:37 ◼ ► computers with more stuff at the base model and those prices would then, I'm telling you,
00:14:46 ◼ ► They're going to raise the price because of the cost of doubling the RAM inside of them
00:14:57 ◼ ► Well, they may not have a new computer but at least they didn't buy a computer that runs
00:15:16 ◼ ► I appreciate that a lot of people are really enjoying being up in arms about this and righteous
00:15:26 ◼ ► And people who want to be really angry and righteous about this are going to be mad about
00:15:48 ◼ ► From a letter to Apple from a bipartisan committee, "While companies have the right to determine
00:15:55 ◼ ► what content is appropriate for their streaming service, the coercive tactics of a foreign
00:16:07 ◼ ► Members of Congress can write as many letters as they want and they can bring people in
00:16:26 ◼ ► But there was just something when I saw this headline on 9to5Mac which just made me chuckle.
00:16:48 ◼ ► which is why I'm pleased to let you know that Fitbod is an easy and affordable way to build
00:16:54 ◼ ► Everybody has a fitness path of their own, so Fitbod uses data to make sure they customize
00:17:01 ◼ ► They use a powerful algorithm to learn about your body, your goals, and your training ability
00:17:11 ◼ ► They present all of this in an app that makes it super easy to learn how to perform every
00:17:25 ◼ ► Fitbod knows that your muscles improve when working in concert with your entire musculoskeletal
00:17:51 ◼ ► as well as mixing up the exercises that you're doing so you're keeping your body sharp but
00:17:57 ◼ ► I really love how the Apple Watch app works with Fitbod so you can see what you're doing
00:18:46 ◼ ► Ming-Chi Kuo is expecting Apple to release a low cost MacBook in 2024 intended to compete
00:18:56 ◼ ► This was from a couple of weeks ago and I'll read a quote from Tim Hardwick at MacRumors.
00:19:01 ◼ ► He says "According to the original report out of Taiwan, Apple's more affordable MacBooks
00:19:06 ◼ ► will adopt some design changes to enable them to achieve the low price, while the outer
00:19:12 ◼ ► appearance will still use a metal casing to maintain a distinctive Apple Mac aesthetic,
00:19:19 ◼ ► Bloomberg's Mark Gurman was first to spark serious rumours about reintroducing a 12-inch
00:19:32 ◼ ► In January of 2023, Gurman said that a 12-inch MacBook was no longer on the company's near-term
00:19:37 ◼ ► roadmap but stopped short of ruling the device out completely, meaning that it being pushed
00:19:49 ◼ ► Yeah, I mean, it is, I'm really just tapping the sign and saying, I wrote about this in
00:20:06 ◼ ► Ming Chi Kuo and it's like, "Oh, let's compete with Chromebooks and all that, like, is it
00:20:19 ◼ ► The ball starts rolling and it leads to very weird places that I think are not likely to
00:20:25 ◼ ► My best guess is that these reports are all about Apple trying to create a lower priced
00:20:31 ◼ ► entry-level MacBook or MacBook Air because as we enter the M3 generation, the M1 MacBook
00:20:56 ◼ ► Remember, it's the old design language because they didn't rev the design language until
00:21:23 ◼ ► and then can stay there and then get price cuts and drop down into, like those base-level
00:21:38 ◼ ► And so, I put those things together and that's what I keep thinking here, is that this is
00:21:41 ◼ ► sort of a, if you think about the iPhone SE, maybe a little bit like that, this idea of
00:21:45 ◼ ► can we take something using kind of existing pieces that does not cost that much for Apple
00:22:01 ◼ ► Because I don't know if the M2 Air is enough, because it's a newer generation, like can
00:22:17 ◼ ► Or are they going to just replace the M2 Air with an M3 Air and then keep the M1 Air at
00:22:45 ◼ ► just trying to engineer the bottom of the MacBook line, because they really like having
00:23:09 ◼ ► And I don't think that a Mac laptop, I can't conceive of a Mac laptop ever really competing
00:23:32 ◼ ► And then they are able to sell that iteration for three or four years and then three or
00:23:36 ◼ ► four years down the line, they just leave it alone, but replace the chip in it and keep
00:23:46 ◼ ► I should say again, referring to angry commenters from earlier, like cheap for Apple, which
00:24:04 ◼ ► I know we're all sort of like grasping for, it's like the, it's the men and the elephant
00:24:14 ◼ ► And trying to like use the information and let go of the narrative and then try to figure
00:24:21 ◼ ► That's my best take in it is that it's got, is that it feels like that, which is M1 Air
00:24:36 ◼ ► I mean, the M2 Air maybe could get there eventually, but it's really nice and it's of a new generation
00:24:47 ◼ ► since the M3 Air would presumably look exactly like the M2 Air, is that as good a place to
00:24:53 ◼ ► build a product as it is to build something that's essentially an M1 Air replacement for
00:25:29 ◼ ► It's an M3 13 that starts at like 1099 and then you replace the MacBook Air M1 with this
00:25:59 ◼ ► Apple really does want, I just keep coming, the reason I keep coming back to the M1 Air,
00:26:07 ◼ ► I just worry that it's going to feel a little creaky after a while, but I look at that and
00:26:19 ◼ ► But I think a lot of people really like that base model MacBook Air and it is the cheapest
00:26:38 ◼ ► It's proven, and I think Tim Cook knows this, Apple's much better at engineering products
00:26:42 ◼ ► and then letting them get cheaper over time than it is under engineering cheap products.
00:26:47 ◼ ► But I do wonder when this rumor is out there, if that's what the goal here is to just build
00:26:53 ◼ ► the low-end MacBook that they can keep, like the iPhone SE, that they can maybe vary it
00:27:08 ◼ ► be as cheap to make as Apple is willing to make it and built so that they can every few
00:27:24 ◼ ► We've been, all these debates about the MacBook Pro in the middle of the price list, but like
00:27:36 ◼ ► It's the same story because I'm sure a lot of people who complain about MacBook Pro would
00:27:48 ◼ ► And the reason is the same actually, which is there's a market that refuses to pay more
00:27:54 ◼ ► And I wonder if that's the goal here for the MacBook Air or the low-end MacBook Mac laptop
00:28:27 ◼ ► M2 MacBook Air, which is like in the new style for cheaper than the M4 or M5 MacBook Air.
00:28:38 ◼ ► To me, that makes the most sense than creating a brand new product and making it the cheap
00:29:06 ◼ ► gotten that they make up volume and they've understood how to make it as cheap as possible
00:29:10 ◼ ► and then make it cheaper by putting in older guts and just sell it forever, which I think
00:29:36 ◼ ► Because they generally are not good at doing a brand new, like, it's just not what they
00:30:13 ◼ ► Um, and I mean, it had, it was underpowered one port, all those things too, but also like
00:30:38 ◼ ► And I wonder if that is either too confusing or they decided, well, no, no, if we're going
00:30:42 ◼ ► to do this in the long run and we want something down here, the right way to do it is to build
00:30:58 ◼ ► I think, I think there's a real good chance that comes out and it's $999 or it's $1099.
00:31:02 ◼ ► I thought this was the cheap MacBook that was going to be down there with a Chromebook.
00:31:05 ◼ ► And the answer is again, it would not be surprising if the answer is, well, no, it's $999 and
00:31:19 ◼ ► And then eventually they get it down there and they can keep it down there, or they can
00:31:30 ◼ ► I just, I'm trying to guess why would they, why would there even be rumors of a product
00:31:41 ◼ ► I feel like it's pretty clear that they want a laptop that's sub a thousand and the only
00:32:00 ◼ ► That is about, I can't imagine, I can't imagine a MacBook getting thinner than that one, honestly.
00:32:51 ◼ ► Trust me, as somebody who's an 11 inch MacBook Air for a while, it was very clear that Apple
00:32:55 ◼ ► was like, I would literally get dialogue boxes that I couldn't, that couldn't fit on the
00:33:03 ◼ ► So Apple has been kind of assuming that the average user is using a 13 inch MacBook Air
00:33:13 ◼ ► So to have it be a smaller screen, I actually, I think that's the part that gives me the
00:33:27 ◼ ► Mark Gurman is reporting that Apple's plans to build cell modems into MacBooks could take
00:33:35 ◼ ► The timelines that Apple have been working on for shipping their own iPhone modems, which
00:33:44 ◼ ► Current estimates would be the 2026 iPhone at the earliest to get Apple's own modem chips.
00:33:51 ◼ ► Once they've done this, Gurman says that Apple would need multiple years from then on to
00:33:56 ◼ ► get their other products up and running, which would be the watch, the iPad and the Mac.
00:34:04 ◼ ► The plan will be to obviously integrate this technology into the Apple Silicon system on
00:34:13 ◼ ► That is part of the report here is that the ultimate goal would be that all the cellular
00:34:17 ◼ ► stuff would just be built into the package like everything else, into the M series chips
00:34:54 ◼ ► And that only happened because Apple was trying to get Qualcomm to blink and Qualcomm wouldn't
00:35:36 ◼ ► And Apple's problem is Apple can't surreptitiously license their modems to phones that are being
00:36:18 ◼ ► if you tried it on the Mac or the iPad, because if the cellular didn't work very well on the
00:36:41 ◼ ► - Yeah, it keeps getting kicked on as Apple continues to not be able to do what they want.
00:36:45 ◼ ► But it's gonna get kicked on further because if they're gonna start in 26, remember the
00:37:12 ◼ ► And so I saw some articles over the weekend that said something like, "Big news, Apple's
00:37:18 ◼ ► And I'm like, I really admire the person who read that story and took that away from it,
00:37:24 ◼ ► because it is a fact that is stated that the goal is ultimately to get them in the Mac.
00:37:28 ◼ ► But it's literally after they do everything with everything else as a standalone thing,
00:37:41 ◼ ► So like, I don't know, I'm getting closer to saying that the Mac isn't gonna have Apple
00:38:09 ◼ ► But the reason I think about it is if imagine taking Antennagate and Apple Maps and smooshing
00:38:29 ◼ ► There was like the Intel one and the Qualcomm one and people were like, "Oh, you don't want
00:38:35 ◼ ► So like, if like, you know, as we were saying, right, imagine if the iPhone just doesn't
00:38:54 ◼ ► This feels so hard to do because it is absolutely core to the experience of using this device,
00:39:13 ◼ ► It will never win the argument that it's more worth taking the risk than paying Qualcomm.
00:39:23 ◼ ► As long as there's risk, it will never win that argument because you would be like, which
00:39:51 ◼ ► - Let me put out, this is probably not true, but I'm gonna put it out there as a little
00:40:08 ◼ ► Never allow a third party to be in control of a thing that is key and core to your business,
00:40:17 ◼ ► And this goes back, my memory of the best example of this from the early days was Safari
00:40:25 ◼ ► because Macs were getting raked over the coals as being inferior to PCs at web browsing in
00:40:30 ◼ ► the '90s and early 2000s because the default browser was Internet Explorer on the Mac and
00:40:38 ◼ ► And yes, that meant that Apple was being unfavorably compared to Microsoft because Microsoft's
00:40:51 ◼ ► How is it that people's judgment about whether our computer is good or not is based on the
00:41:36 ◼ ► And this is not quite the same, but what if the whole reason Apple bought the Intel business
00:41:40 ◼ ► and is working on this, maybe it is ultimately to build those cellular chips, but maybe it's
00:41:55 ◼ ► And what if Apple is okay pushing back the launch of their chips with cellular capabilities
00:42:09 ◼ ► What if Apple's okay with it because its deal that it just made with Qualcomm is fine and
00:42:15 ◼ ► they don't want to be beholden to Qualcomm forever because that would affect their relationship
00:42:28 ◼ ► So what if this is not Apple's crash course to replace Qualcomm and by gum they're going
00:42:33 ◼ ► to do it, by hook or by crook, because they got to get out from under the thumb of Qualcomm.
00:42:37 ◼ ► And it is instead Apple's going to keep puttering away on this and maybe at some point they'll
00:42:56 ◼ ► I mean, I know they're spending money on it, but like there is value in just working on
00:43:01 ◼ ► it until it's ready and having your supplier know that if they screw up or displease you
00:43:17 ◼ ► They had those lawsuits, although it's all settled now, but like Qualcomm wants Apple's
00:43:27 ◼ ► One of their executives was quoted as saying, "If it lasts longer than this deal, it's all
00:43:41 ◼ ► So I do wonder if maybe it's not a conspiracy and Apple doesn't actually intend to ship
00:43:47 ◼ ► I don't think that's true, but I do wonder if it's a continuum where it's sort of like,
00:44:03 ◼ ► Speaking of delays, Mark Gorman is also reporting that the Vision Pro is now being targeted
00:44:20 ◼ ► And I also saw recently on MacRumors, they posted some onboarding videos that were found
00:44:32 ◼ ► the beta all of a sudden, but it seems like now maybe it's still a couple of extra months
00:44:44 ◼ ► next month and the amount of effort to launch a product in January, Gorman always points
00:44:52 ◼ ► One reason they don't love it, this is one of the reasons they didn't want to do MacWorld
00:44:55 ◼ ► Expo anymore because that was in early January, they don't love it is that Apple likes to
00:45:17 ◼ ► I said last week, I felt like it was going to be soon and in winter and not like, I didn't
00:45:27 ◼ ► It's a little later than I thought but I wasn't really expecting it at a particular date.
00:45:30 ◼ ► I just thought it would be sooner rather than later because it just seemed like they were
00:45:36 ◼ ► getting there but I guess they're not getting there quite as quickly as they would like.
00:45:52 ◼ ► You have to keep your ear to the ground for the things that will help you take it to that
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00:47:55 ◼ ► Friend of the show, Chance Miller at 9to5mac got a HUGE scoop from Apple that in 2024 they
00:48:16 ◼ ► RCS, also known as Rich Communication Services is essentially a replacement for SMS and MMS
00:48:23 ◼ ► It is widely used on Android as a way to ensure high quality media is shared with messages.
00:48:30 ◼ ► It supports read receipts, has typing indicators and can also support encryption in some cases
00:48:39 ◼ ► There has been a wide push from Android device makers including Google and Samsung for Apple
00:48:44 ◼ ► to adopt RCS to allow Android users to reach parity with iMessage and stop the green bubbles.
00:49:13 ◼ ► This will work alongside iMessage which will continue to be the best and most secure messaging
00:49:25 ◼ ► high quality media, read receipts and typing indicators, location sharing and of course
00:49:47 ◼ ► Apple confirmed additionally they will still be classing these messages as green bubbles
00:50:00 ◼ ► does it will not integrate fully with iMessage it will not replace anything specifically.
00:50:08 ◼ ► Apple has also said that it will work with the GSMA to further enhance the RCS standard.
00:50:23 ◼ ► Device makers, OS or manufacturers can put end to end encryption on top of RCS but it's
00:50:31 ◼ ► So it's on the Google Pixel for example it has end to end encryption for messages using
00:50:47 ◼ ► got in an argument about this where I said Apple should just do this it feels like spite
00:50:55 ◼ ► This is not about blue bubbles versus green bubbles it's about making the experience of
00:50:59 ◼ ► talking to your green bubble Android friends not stink and it's an iPhone user experience
00:51:05 ◼ ► issue it's not just an Android user experience issue and just saying by your grandma on iPhone
00:51:36 ◼ ► join us join us and they do that for years and then finally they're like Apple look it's
00:51:40 ◼ ► a standard GSM Association endorses it join us and Apple starts walking toward them and
00:51:49 ◼ ► Google's like oh my god they're picking me they're picking me they're coming over they're
00:51:58 ◼ ► to be working with the GSMA and in the future we'll work with them on more stuff like encryption
00:52:23 ◼ ► stands are going like but me right like you're gonna look at me right and Apple Apple's never
00:52:29 ◼ ► gonna look at you that's what's going on here I think it's kind of fascinating right Apple's
00:52:34 ◼ ► just like hey GSMA has this thing called RCS we're gonna work with them on security and
00:52:41 ◼ ► and Google's like oh I did security and Apple's like is there a buzzing sound anyway we're
00:52:53 ◼ ► like okay in talking about this yeah we're not like this is the right thing to do Apple
00:53:06 ◼ ► like obviously as a human being in the world I think it would be great if this all just
00:53:11 ◼ ► worked and people didn't have to make those distinctions right but we also need to when
00:53:16 ◼ ► we're talking about this be realistic right in understanding that Apple use iMessage as
00:53:34 ◼ ► bubbles means something it means and the people who argue about the blue and green bubbles
00:53:57 ◼ ► able to tell whether your message was secure or not and that's not great yeah but so let's
00:54:02 ◼ ► be real though if they are able to get end-to-end encryption on RCS they're still not gonna
00:54:12 ◼ ► because we're nowhere near there at this point we're nowhere near there and you do need to
00:54:19 ◼ ► they chose color to differentiate initially because they built this whole new system that
00:54:22 ◼ ► uses IP you know instead of using the carriers and that is encrypted and that has all these
00:54:29 ◼ ► other features and they used blue to differentiate it now with this they're gonna get something
00:54:43 ◼ ► like if it does have security would you not want to indicate security regardless but like
00:54:47 ◼ ► there's a reason why but again why why would Apple Mike why would Apple announce a feature
00:55:15 ◼ ► a big like GSMA event no no that didn't happen we cast our eyes over to our friends little
00:55:22 ◼ ► least of here in the European Union yeah Apple is trying to prove that it is not a gatekeeper
00:55:30 ◼ ► to stop the EU telling them they need to fully open up and make everything interoperable
00:55:49 ◼ ► that so Apple I think a couple of days ago so a couple of days after the RCS thing filed
00:56:05 ◼ ► and this is one of the things that they will have put into that challenge and like exactly
00:56:10 ◼ ► hey we're interoperable and open we're integrating with RCS so people like they and this is also
00:56:20 ◼ ► in the whole way of like we have these list of things that we are doing and are willing
00:56:32 ◼ ► are very willing to see the new iPhones yeah to do you know we are very willing to be a
00:56:40 ◼ ► do is say you are a gatekeeper we demand that you open up this this and this and make this
00:56:52 ◼ ► what's going on here yeah it is part of their argument my guess is going to be that that
00:57:01 ◼ ► trying to first off I think it's impractical to force a company that has built a secure
00:57:08 ◼ ► system for their users to make it open or make it insecure or make them build new software
00:57:18 ◼ ► to run on other platforms because it's like a common carrier it seems this is one of those
00:57:29 ◼ ► we want to have it everywhere so you just have to do that now is I think kind of ludicrous
00:57:36 ◼ ► but in order to make their counter argument what they're saying is look look look there
00:57:41 ◼ ► they got their arm around their buddy GSMA and they're like look we're going to support
00:57:45 ◼ ► this standard and we're going to work with them to make it more secure on a broad level
00:57:50 ◼ ► I guess okay whatever and that's that's the what they're trying to do is make a contrast
00:58:01 ◼ ► of thing yay and then we're also going to do our own thing for our customers and that's
00:58:06 ◼ ► our business and get out of our business but we will also support this more broadly yeah
00:58:12 ◼ ► and that argument doesn't work if you're like yeah you know there are other things out there
00:58:16 ◼ ► they offer potentially in the future security and functionality to other users but we don't
00:58:27 ◼ ► again I'll point out doesn't exist and won't exist until later next year which who knows
00:58:39 ◼ ► 17 feature who knows who knows what that is but they need to they need to get it out there
00:58:55 ◼ ► could also you know the European Union could say that's fine make an iMessage app for Android
00:59:07 ◼ ► back to something we talked about way back when about the US government talking to Apple
00:59:11 ◼ ► where the US government at one point basically said or part of the government the FBI or
00:59:17 ◼ ► whatever said we want Apple to build a special version of iOS for us to use for hacking the
00:59:25 ◼ ► phones of suspects in crimes and what I felt then I feel now which is seems awfully weird
00:59:34 ◼ ► for regulators and governments to demand that companies build certain kinds of software
00:59:43 ◼ ► in certain places seems awfully strong intervention right doesn't mean they can't do it I don't
00:59:49 ◼ ► know the legal legal deals of it but that's what the DMA is for right like this is this
00:59:56 ◼ ► is the European Union create trying to create a new law to say if you are deemed a gatekeeper
01:00:16 ◼ ► bouncer at the club entrance has to let everybody in or the subway has to let everybody in right
01:00:24 ◼ ► it's and that's what that gatekeeper is trying to do is say like it becomes de facto kind
01:00:33 ◼ ► think there's a real strong argument especially since iMessage isn't particularly popular
01:00:49 ◼ ► find it deeply offensive that you could build a product for your customers that's so good
01:00:55 ◼ ► that everybody else wishes they had it so a government or entity comes in and says it's
01:01:00 ◼ ► the law that you have to make it for everybody else now like that's bananas well okay so
01:01:06 ◼ ► here's here's I think I straddle these lines sometimes at a certain point does something
01:01:15 ◼ ► not become so large it's like a utility and if something becomes like a utility shouldn't
01:01:24 ◼ ► there be rules about how it can operate like we're entering monopoly discussion right in
01:01:33 ◼ ► saying is at what point is your club so large that the bouncer has to let everybody in that's
01:01:39 ◼ ► the question I guess you go from like nightclub to park right at that point yeah yeah yeah
01:01:51 ◼ ► it but there's a question like if you if does Apple Park have to let everybody in because
01:01:55 ◼ ► it's really nice like I this is the question public versus private and controlling these
01:02:00 ◼ ► powerful private entities and telling them what to do and it's it's a difficult question
01:02:04 ◼ ► I I think somebody in the the discord is saying well what about demanding rot not in demanding
01:02:10 ◼ ► that they make I message for Android but demanding that I message be opened up to be interoperable
01:02:15 ◼ ► in some way and that the challenge there is you start to say well do we lose all our security
01:02:56 ◼ ► Apple can't have the App Store and that's not quite what they're saying they're saying there
01:03:01 ◼ ► have to be others and there has to be competition on Apple's platforms I see that's where I
01:03:07 ◼ ► sort of straddle it which is like well first off they're not a monopoly they're a monopoly
01:03:11 ◼ ► on their products which are not a monopoly therefore they're not a monopoly at the same
01:03:16 ◼ ► time they exert so much control and the user choice is so limited especially since it is
01:03:22 ◼ ► a monopsony it's really just Apple and the Play Store controlling most of this that you
01:03:28 ◼ ► do need to provide alternative access because they've gotten too much power over their customers
01:03:33 ◼ ► because it's like they they you could I feel like you can make an argument it's hard that
01:03:51 ◼ ► the things to talk about it's it's just like the I message thing it feels just like kind
01:03:58 ◼ ► of like FOMO to me like it's irrelevant it's irrelevant there are so many different messaging
01:04:04 ◼ ► apps there's so much competition in messaging I'm what does I message lock anybody into
01:04:11 ◼ ► really right especially in Europe like there are so many different chat alternatives to
01:04:17 ◼ ► do that are encrypted that have better features that don't have stupid tap back emoji stickers
01:04:23 ◼ ► but real emoji reactions sorry got off track there there's just so much that of all the
01:04:34 ◼ ► might not even solve that problem like it's irrelevant there are bigger fish to fry something
01:04:39 ◼ ► like the App Store is certainly a better target than I message of all things I say the hero
01:04:52 ◼ ► million users so Apple saying it has under that and look that's one thing but this isn't
01:05:03 ◼ ► also the App Store and like this is the shoe that hasn't dropped they are obviously over
01:05:16 ◼ ► as a proxy here right and then like imagine this conversation in the US right about gatekeeper
01:05:35 ◼ ► not switch to Android because then they won't have I message anymore okay so what I would
01:05:42 ◼ ► say about that is I think that I think that it is true it is one of the reasons that people
01:05:46 ◼ ► stay on iPhone but I would say I don't think making your product be one that people want
01:05:55 ◼ ► to keep is fundamentally wrong I don't I think it's like saying it's like saying oh Apple
01:06:03 ◼ ► you make these nice aluminum chassis for your computers you can't do that you're people
01:06:17 ◼ ► they can say oh no no people like people like to use I message in America so we need to
01:06:25 ◼ ► so everybody needs to be able to use it that's such a strange way to take it and again I
01:06:30 ◼ ► this is why I'm saying I think the App Store there are much better arguments for that I
01:06:34 ◼ ► message it just seems stupid to me like there are so many other options there's no issue
01:06:49 ◼ ► to them in some way that's not the same that's just not the same if we look at the whole
01:06:57 ◼ ► look at the bigger picture on this right which is where I feel more strongly is like I message
01:07:09 ◼ ► need to soften is that it's when you get when you create a product which people want to
01:07:22 ◼ ► success and what Apple chose to do with that success was take every single penny they could
01:07:29 ◼ ► right like they sure we talk about right looks like the way in which they lock things down
01:07:35 ◼ ► with developers and then they don't let them link out of the App Store and then when they
01:07:40 ◼ ► you know and that's like oh we're gonna create this whole method for you to use your own
01:07:45 ◼ ► purchasing but then we're gonna audit you for 30% it's like create this incredible product
01:07:52 ◼ ► that people want to use get loads of customers have tons of success but then there are all
01:07:59 ◼ ► these other parts around it where I feel like for me I can't argue for them because I don't
01:08:06 ◼ ► think that they use their whole suite of levers in a way that always sits with me I feel like
01:08:23 ◼ ► could do less that sometimes this is the even back to I message for a second like that was
01:08:29 ◼ ► why I made the argument about Apple supporting RCS last week before they said they would yeah
01:08:34 ◼ ► is it's one thing to say people like I message and another thing to say although this form
01:08:40 ◼ ► other format has been out there for a long time we're gonna not support it and and just
01:08:46 ◼ ► keep the thing that we built into the iPhone in 2007 that is really bad compared to the
01:08:52 ◼ ► other things that are out there because we want to squeeze it we want it to hurt so that
01:08:56 ◼ ► you have to stay on I message because if you go this other way it's gonna be painful because
01:09:02 ◼ ► we've withheld things that would make it less painful and on the app store side there are
01:09:11 ◼ ► bothers me like I'm not sure I really like this idea that maybe it's gonna be alternate
01:09:16 ◼ ► app stores because it just means alternate gatekeepers I hate that I hate that idea but
01:09:33 ◼ ► preferred its own store and because it acts as its own middleman that's so anti-competitive
01:09:38 ◼ ► and ridiculous and I hate it you can't link out to things on the web other than like now
01:09:44 ◼ ► one thing somewhere and not really anything useful it's ridiculous and for me the biggest
01:10:03 ◼ ► reason doesn't like your idea or doesn't like you or doesn't like your app you can't ever
01:10:10 ◼ ► release it you can't ever release it on iPhone and iPad because at the the place where you
01:10:15 ◼ ► ply your trade because Apple is the only path I hate that too so there's lots of things
01:10:20 ◼ ► to hate here I just I roll my eyes at iMessage in Europe especially because like for Pete's
01:10:25 ◼ ► sake I realize it's part of a larger conversation and I actually think that's why the RCS move
01:10:31 ◼ ► is such a great move because it is Apple finally saying all right we will not aggressively
01:10:46 ◼ ► move but like there are so many other places where I feel like Apple as you say has all
01:11:06 ◼ ► this episode is brought to you by text expander when you work in a small team every moment
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01:13:03 ◼ ► of November 2023 and the entire world of technology has been raptured over the weekend by the
01:13:13 ◼ ► goings on open AI and I give the date because probably about a time with the way that this
01:13:20 ◼ ► news has unfurled the last four days by the time this episode comes out I expect things
01:13:26 ◼ ► to have changed again I don't know but it's impossible to at least I there will be developments
01:13:39 ◼ ► the last four days so effectively the summary is on November 17th open AI's board kind of
01:13:50 ◼ ► out of nowhere announced that co-founder and CEO Sam Altman had been removed as CEO effective
01:13:57 ◼ ► immediately the board said that after review it quote concluded that he was not consistently
01:14:04 ◼ ► candid in his communications of the board hindering its ability to exercise its responsibilities
01:14:15 ◼ ► really talk about anything that's been rumored has been conjecture but nothing else then
01:14:20 ◼ ► there were talks over the weekend which was even I think the most bizarre thing of this
01:14:25 ◼ ► where then open AI's board were having talks with Sam Altman about bringing him back kind
01:14:42 ◼ ► he was gone they installed a interim CEO Mira Murati I believe was who they put in as the
01:14:52 ◼ ► CEO if I'm remembering correctly there's been so many interim there's another interim CEO
01:14:57 ◼ ► now so it's hard to now yeah to as Emmett Shear who was the former boss of Twitch which
01:15:02 ◼ ► I can't even get my head around that one maybe I don't know enough about Emmett Shear then
01:15:22 ◼ ► oh by the way we're creating our own new division and Sam Altman's going to be CEO of it and
01:15:27 ◼ ► then I think earlier today I saw that I think there is a there is a letter circulating within
01:15:34 ◼ ► open AI that 500 current employees have said they will go to Microsoft unless Altman comes
01:15:44 ◼ ► back that's kind of where we are now and he's not coming back he ain't coming back now this
01:16:15 ◼ ► think it was built on a premise that was rapidly it's a premise that Silicon Valley can't handle
01:16:22 ◼ ► right because it was built as a nonprofit that was going to build artificial intelligence
01:16:34 ◼ ► happening is that they had a for-profit entity that they were managing that was because they
01:16:47 ◼ ► AI stuff right so they they needed funding for Microsoft and other places and they built
01:17:04 ◼ ► situation where open AI and and with their partner Microsoft was being run as a business
01:17:10 ◼ ► it's like a business of of like a startup except he doesn't actually own the stock because
01:17:17 ◼ ► it's a nonprofit like it's and it's broken that's a broken set of a set of characteristics
01:17:29 ◼ ► AI was broken from the start or at least broken at the point where they realized that they
01:17:33 ◼ ► needed to have this other entity I would say it it broke at the point that chant GPT exploded
01:17:39 ◼ ► because then it just couldn't it's its fundamental structure could not support where it was going
01:17:50 ◼ ► rather than do what they have done which yes the bad which is bad because now they probably
01:17:55 ◼ ► torpedoed the company at this point right so two things two reasons one is it's a having
01:18:00 ◼ ► a nonprofit that's about humanity is a good fig leaf over your thing it's like no no no
01:18:06 ◼ ► we're all for the good but but the truth is it was misaligned priorities and and it was
01:18:14 ◼ ► it was all probably going to come apart and the number one reason is exactly what happened
01:18:31 ◼ ► Sam Altman telling them things that they didn't believe were true because and I don't know
01:18:40 ◼ ► to look at it and say what Sam Altman wanted to do with open AI was very different from
01:18:45 ◼ ► what the board thought they were getting into board of a nonprofit I've been on a board
01:18:53 ◼ ► nonprofit versus people on a board of a big profit-seeking company yeah and so that structure
01:18:59 ◼ ► was broken it's not surprising in that way that he got fired because they're that board
01:19:19 ◼ ► they're there and what makes me feel a little bit uneasy is the the suggestion at a few
01:19:26 ◼ ► points that the way that this should have worked and maybe did work for a while is let's
01:19:31 ◼ ► pretend that we're a nonprofit and cloak ourselves in the nonprofitness but we all know what
01:19:36 ◼ ► it really is and finally the board apparently some members of the board enough a majority
01:19:48 ◼ ► because it really is like Silicon Valley mindset but inside a thing that is not built to match
01:19:58 ◼ ► like okay I get it but then I think about like Microsoft and Microsoft's whole business
01:20:03 ◼ ► strategy is based on their partnership with open AI and and and that's a problem because
01:20:08 ◼ ► they're a big for-profit business entity and this is a nonprofit but the idea that Satya
01:20:14 ◼ ► Nadella was told minutes before the announcement went on and it was happening one minute yeah
01:20:19 ◼ ► great that's right in 60 seconds this this company will self-destruct first off my first
01:20:31 ◼ ► they're talking about like Sam Altman wants to do a startup or something else and I thought
01:20:46 ◼ ► ended up doing and so the net result is Ben Thompson wrote about this in Stretachery today
01:21:05 ◼ ► I believe they wanted to buy them when they invested yeah but they knew that they wouldn't
01:21:16 ◼ ► like I think Microsoft just felt they were not allowed to buy companies so they effectively
01:21:22 ◼ ► bought everything except the company structure right like because they have the license to
01:21:32 ◼ ► AI as much as open AI does and now they're going to have probably most of the employees
01:21:38 ◼ ► of open AI some but I saw someone in chat I don't have this verified but said apparently
01:21:49 ◼ ► said that they'll move there you go and Satya Nadella has already said we have a space for
01:21:54 ◼ ► everyone yep so what they're effectively doing like is Trojan horsing open AI into co-pilot
01:22:03 ◼ ► right which is the new brand oh what if the board wanted this all along let's spread that
01:22:08 ◼ ► conspiracy what if this was the plan all along I've said this for a while right Satya Nadella
01:22:13 ◼ ► he is a stone cold killer right yes I it's just business I find him absolutely fascinating
01:22:21 ◼ ► he seems like a nice guy right like he seems like a nice guy and is doing super interesting
01:22:26 ◼ ► things with Microsoft rebuilding this company and make and as you know been slowly and steadily
01:22:37 ◼ ► on new things and he is now going to position co-pilot back to on like he's going to come
01:22:47 ◼ ► position it on top again like which is where he wanted it but chat GPT kind of yeah had
01:22:51 ◼ ► it but now that's probably gonna go away wasn't always weird though that Microsoft's like
01:22:56 ◼ ► key thing that they're doing in AI was always like well we've got a partnership with the
01:23:02 ◼ ► best which is open AI yeah but it's a partnership it's like well yeah your core everything is
01:23:06 ◼ ► open is co-pilot which is your branding but it's like their technology isn't that a little
01:23:11 ◼ ► weird and the answer is not weird now right now by the way point pointed out in our discord
01:23:17 ◼ ► that the the random person in the chat who said it's up to 700 is chance Miller who was
01:23:29 ◼ ► the show the next you're just a random person just a guy that's just how life is just a
01:23:33 ◼ ► guy in the chat sometimes sometimes you get exclusive huge news and sometimes you're just
01:23:44 ◼ ► sometimes Jason all right you know like yeah it's true you just gotta be it's because it
01:23:53 ◼ ► hours and this happened then then said moment happened and it was all so yeah Microsoft
01:23:58 ◼ ► gets gets to walk away with this stuff like lock stock and barrel which seems pretty amazing
01:24:02 ◼ ► they've got the license I do wonder what will happen to open AI as a nonprofit and will
01:24:06 ◼ ► it become some sort of other AI entity I didn't we didn't even mention the other part of the
01:24:11 ◼ ► AI story which is that the anthropic was created a separate company by a bunch of people who
01:24:30 ◼ ► of fantasy by a bunch of galaxy brains Silicon Valley types that oh AI what it really needs
01:24:37 ◼ ► is a nonprofit that can guide toward positivity in humanity and we saw that immediately that
01:24:44 ◼ ► started falling apart because the people who are doing it are still thinking like Silicon
01:25:02 ◼ ► it to your advantage it's supposed to be what the business is like and I always I mean over
01:25:12 ◼ ► it like makes it seem like it's just a mom-and-pop open source whatever but it's being run like
01:25:27 ◼ ► and it feels like this is kind of something that was inevitable in fact there are those
01:25:36 ◼ ► building hardware for AI processing and I wonder if part of the friction with the board
01:25:41 ◼ ► was them thinking that he was basically going to go do a startup and take all his all his
01:25:52 ◼ ► has a license right no matter what the situation is that the board thought was going on or
01:25:58 ◼ ► what they wanted to get what they are ending up with is what they wanted right like Sam
01:26:02 ◼ ► Altman's gone they're gonna go back to being a company about any products because there's
01:26:08 ◼ ► not gonna be any product people left yeah yeah and they'll be the you know they'll they'll
01:26:16 ◼ ► the license for the open AI core technology and which will last which will be important
01:26:23 ◼ ► for as long as it's important because like you know I was talking to a few friends about
01:26:26 ◼ ► this earlier today as everyone's been talking about it yeah the there is absolutely no way
01:26:33 ◼ ► that Microsoft wasn't also building its own LLM and yeah oh and they can base it on open
01:26:39 ◼ ► AI because it doesn't matter because they have they have a I think a an eternal license
01:26:43 ◼ ► to all the open AI work so they're only gonna prop up open AI for as long as they need to
01:26:49 ◼ ► until the co-pilot LLM is you know is everything they need but but the thing is now they don't
01:26:54 ◼ ► even necessarily need to do that because now they've got open AI's whole presumably entire
01:27:04 ◼ ► like but they have the license to the intellectual property it is a robbery it is a straight
01:27:21 ◼ ► have because how so how exciting would it be for this to happen if you're here and just
01:27:32 ◼ ► wanted to buy it but I couldn't now I don't need to well you know the power move is gonna
01:27:56 ◼ ► be amazing if they're like yeah why don't you just let us assume your your office space
01:28:13 ◼ ► them to move it's so interesting how Microsoft is now building all of these like sub companies
01:28:21 ◼ ► with its own CEOs right because like Microsoft gaming has its own CEO like they're doing
01:28:28 ◼ ► this now a lot too they're kind of doing this thing that like like what Google did with
01:28:33 ◼ ► alphabet right but without actually doing the name change. And so counter to the Balmer
01:28:38 ◼ ► era where everybody was subservient to Windows it's now Satya Nadella is just like nope we
01:28:58 ◼ ► Lot of time. This episode is brought to you by Vitaly. Customer success teams today are
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01:30:26 ◼ ► Our thanks to Vitaly for their support of this show and Relay FM. We'll finish out today's
01:30:32 ◼ ► episode with some ask upgrade questions. First one comes from Dan who says there's been a
01:30:50 ◼ ► standalone display. Do you think there are any odds Apple would come out with this product?
01:31:04 ◼ ► already built the iMac but I think the thing is the iMac is that it doesn't stand alone
01:31:10 ◼ ► but that's it. That's what it is. It's a pretty good price and it has a computer in it and
01:31:16 ◼ ► I think they're happy with that and I don't think they are interested in making a thinner,
01:31:23 ◼ ► cheaper version. I don't think that's where their focus is. I think that making a better
01:31:28 ◼ ► studio display will be their ultimate goal, not making a display that undercuts the studio
01:31:56 ◼ ► So my guess is it'll be a long time but that there will be some special spatial video content
01:32:08 ◼ ► the Vision Pro to get a spatial look at the new products but I don't think it's necessarily
01:32:14 ◼ ► the Event video if that makes sense. I can't make a decision on this one. Like, I can imagine
01:32:22 ◼ ► they're doing it, I can imagine they're not doing it. But they're gonna wanna have stuff
01:32:39 ◼ ► the trouble of either shooting in 3D or doing a 3D process of your Event video? Movies do
01:32:46 ◼ ► it, they could totally do it and make it available. I wonder, my thought there, and you're right,
01:32:57 ◼ ► that conversation inside and saying "what's better?" Spending the money on a 3D conversion
01:33:03 ◼ ► of our Event video so that if you look at it in spatial video or on the Vision Pro you'll
01:33:08 ◼ ► see it in 3D or make some custom content for Vision Pro that is gonna blow them away. Or
01:33:25 ◼ ► Steve Jobs Theater lobby and can get an angle on all the new Apple products or something
01:33:30 ◼ ► like that. So that's the question, do you just spiff up this video or do you do something
01:33:37 ◼ ► special? Because I'll tell you, I think doing something special is gonna show off the hardware
01:33:47 ◼ ► Francois asks "With Apple's eye on services growth and the recent rumors around AI features
01:33:52 ◼ ► in future iOS updates, do you think that an advanced Siri could be a service they launch
01:33:57 ◼ ► to give additional features on top of Siri? It could be standalone but also rolled into
01:34:08 ◼ ► It's an interesting idea that I have not thought of. Off the top of my head I don't like it
01:34:11 ◼ ► because I feel like you need to make Siri better fundamentally. But I do wonder if there
01:34:39 ◼ ► do Siri Plus, I think it might be more like they add other services or other AI features
01:34:50 ◼ ► The overall base is increased but it can do more things now but you need to be an Apple
01:34:59 ◼ ► But fundamentally, Apple doing machine learning voice assistant on the iPhone well is job
01:35:07 ◼ ► one because it reflects on the iPhone. And so it's gotta be good. And if you're perceived
01:35:12 ◼ ► as withholding some of that goodness behind a paywall, I think that's dangerous for Apple.
01:35:18 ◼ ► I think they're playing with fire there. So my guess is that that won't be something that
01:35:21 ◼ ► they do initially. But it wouldn't shock me if there was a advanced, you know, if you're
01:35:25 ◼ ► a news plus subscriber, the voice assistant is gonna do a better job and offer you other
01:35:36 ◼ ► I could also imagine there being some features that are behind the subscription because they
01:35:46 ◼ ► I could also see maybe if they did it as like a beta at first and it was only available
01:35:57 ◼ ► Steve wrote in the essay, "I really enjoyed Mike's breakdown of the meaning of pro, which
01:36:11 ◼ ► the Vision Pro out of the lineup. So for the both of you, where do you think the Vision
01:36:35 ◼ ► I got a solution for you. We don't know because we don't know how the Vision Pro will be used.
01:36:41 ◼ ► That's my answer right now is we don't know. It's possible that the Vision Pro will find
01:36:46 ◼ ► its niche in high-end, you know, it's computer people who can put up big screens and work
01:36:52 ◼ ► at it all day and they're doing a bunch of high-end stuff and there's 3D models and they're
01:37:02 ◼ ► or it's our friend programmers who are like able to do all sorts of things in that development
01:37:06 ◼ ► environment. It's also possible that it turns out like the most amazing things about this
01:37:11 ◼ ► product are games and 3D movies and immersive experiences and that the using it as a computer
01:37:22 ◼ ► is less impressive than those. At which point if it falls that way, pro will be about the
01:37:41 ◼ ► the price and that you can afford it because it's going to be very expensive. But as how
01:37:52 ◼ ► Okay. Does that help? No. The price. That's my non-answer answer? The price is an interesting
01:38:01 ◼ ► factor to this. It's so expensive that it should only be bought by people that are really
01:38:08 ◼ ► going to want to put it through its paces. I would also say, again without it being available,
01:38:15 ◼ ► without even knowing what kinds of software are available, the fact that, let's compare
01:38:20 ◼ ► the Vision Pro and the Quest. The Quest is marketed mostly for games, right? Like games
01:38:28 ◼ ► and fun things. Apple is saying we have built a spatial computer, which is very different
01:38:35 ◼ ► to saying this thing is for games. So if they are able to land the "this is a computer",
01:38:43 ◼ ► I think that shifts the equation. Especially because I'm still unconvinced about what games
01:38:48 ◼ ► are going to look like on the thing. Sure. Because we really don't know what that's going
01:38:51 ◼ ► to be like yet. You're right, it's being positioned as over on the actual Pro scale, right? The
01:39:02 ◼ ► mentality scale more than the branding scale. Right now, that's where Apple is trying very
01:39:06 ◼ ► hard to position it. That's true. But we just, we won't truly know until the thing is shipped
01:39:13 ◼ ► and we see what it can do. And like, how capable is it? And all these kinds of things. And
01:39:28 ◼ ► buy one of these Apple things because they have this NBA content and you're sitting right
01:39:32 ◼ ► there and it's amazing and you just have to do it." And that would be on the other end,
01:39:42 ◼ ► I need it for my work, but more like if you can afford it, it's a great experience. That's
01:39:53 ◼ ► No. If you would like to send us in a question for a future episode of the show, just go
01:40:24 ◼ ► I don't read it out. That would be the entire show. I would just sit here reading follow
01:40:32 ◼ ► You can check out Jason's work over at sixcolors.com and you can hear his shows here on Relay
01:40:37 ◼ ► FM and at the incomparable.com. You can listen to my podcast here on Relay FM and check out
01:40:42 ◼ ► my work at cortexbrand.com. You can find us online. We're on Mastodon. Jason is at Jason
01:40:48 ◼ ► now on zeppelin.flights. I am at iMike, I M Y K E on mike.social. You can find the show's
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