559: The Tall Lettuce


00:00:00   - Good morning.

00:00:02   (laughing)

00:00:03   - Well done, well done.

00:00:05   - I had to do it, it's so, okay so we're recording

00:00:07   in the morning, this almost never happens.

00:00:10   It's very strange like to be here,

00:00:13   Casey, you're probably like wearing a tuxedo

00:00:15   'cause I don't know what you wear during the day.

00:00:16   We both have our like you know fully awake,

00:00:18   well asterisk, you know, as much as they kind of be awake,

00:00:21   our dogs, you know in day time mode.

00:00:24   Possible outside noise from you know,

00:00:26   lawn mowers and stuff like that.

00:00:28   - It's a crazy day.

00:00:30   - Yeah, everything is upside down.

00:00:31   My voice is apparently upside down as well.

00:00:33   There's some viral thing going around Richmond

00:00:35   and probably the entirety of America right now.

00:00:37   But anyway.

00:00:38   - I think there's more, I think there's a couple maybe, yeah.

00:00:40   - Yeah, fair.

00:00:41   But yeah, so Michaela was sick last week

00:00:43   and had like a cough and runny nose

00:00:46   and we took her in and she was tested for all the things

00:00:49   and the doc said, "No, it's just a viral thing."

00:00:51   And so I think it's now my turn.

00:00:53   But anyway, so I sound a little weird.

00:00:55   It's not Marco's editing, it's not anything like that.

00:00:58   Or it could be, maybe it was because I was so excited

00:01:00   about colors and we'll talk about that in a little while.

00:01:03   Maybe that's why I was just screaming at the top of my lungs

00:01:06   in excitement last night.

00:01:07   - Well, I mean, continuing Apple's Halloween theme,

00:01:09   maybe you're just doing like a Dracula voice or something.

00:01:12   - That's what it is.

00:01:13   - What do you mean, I always sound like this?

00:01:16   - I have come to suck your wallet dry.

00:01:18   Or at least that's what Tim said to me last night.

00:01:20   (laughing)

00:01:22   But nevertheless, yeah, so everything is upside down.

00:01:24   ATP is not in morning show.

00:01:26   We all sound weird to some degree.

00:01:28   Actually, Marco, you sound normal.

00:01:30   But John typically has a morning voice.

00:01:32   I haven't heard too much of it yet.

00:01:33   I obviously sound all sorts of funky.

00:01:35   So we're just gonna have a whole

00:01:38   Halloween extravaganza this morning.

00:01:39   Oh, that's what I was gonna say.

00:01:40   I am in my official Limitless LLC dress, costume, tuxedo,

00:01:45   no, whatever it's called, dress code, there it is.

00:01:48   I have on an ATP shirt because I am that guy

00:01:51   that wears his own band's t-shirt almost all the time.

00:01:53   I feel like we talked about this recently.

00:01:54   - But during your own concert, you are wearing your shirt?

00:01:58   - Yeah, yeah, yeah, oh yeah, absolutely.

00:02:00   And I have on Mack Weldon, former sponsor,

00:02:03   I don't think future sponsor,

00:02:04   but certainly former sponsor Mack Weldon Sweats,

00:02:06   or I forget what these are officially called,

00:02:07   but I call them sweatpants,

00:02:08   and they are the most comfortable.

00:02:10   - The ace sweatpants, I believe.

00:02:11   - Yes, yes, I think that's right.

00:02:13   The most comfortable sweatpants that I've ever put on.

00:02:15   And I actually do have Mack Weldon slippers as well.

00:02:19   - They aren't sponsoring this episode, man.

00:02:21   I'm basically a walking Mack Weldon billboard all the time.

00:02:24   They really shouldn't still be sponsored.

00:02:26   - Yeah, so anyway, so I did have their slippers,

00:02:29   which I also recommend.

00:02:30   I am a rubber sole slipper kind of person.

00:02:33   I know that's a very controversial topic.

00:02:36   So I did have those on, although I've kicked them off

00:02:38   because the office gets very warm

00:02:40   when I close the door and start recording.

00:02:42   So that is the situation here.

00:02:44   Marco, you said you're a walking Mack Weldon advertisement.

00:02:47   - Well, mostly.

00:02:48   I'm also a marine layer advertisement,

00:02:51   another one of our former sponsors.

00:02:53   See, being a nerd, I basically never go clothes shopping

00:02:58   ever out in the world.

00:03:02   All of my clothes come from podcast sponsors

00:03:06   and Instagram ads that I've come across.

00:03:07   And it was funny, I recently, I was buying,

00:03:11   I wanted this, somebody made a really nice looking

00:03:14   fake suede bomber jacket.

00:03:15   I'm a sucker for jackets, I love jackets.

00:03:17   I'm so, this morning, I got to wear my beloved

00:03:20   Relwen Instagram ad, Relwen vertical insulator jacket,

00:03:23   which I think is my favorite jacket I've ever owned

00:03:25   'cause it was finally cold enough to wear it.

00:03:27   I'm such a Relwen fanboy.

00:03:28   Anyway, I was getting this vegan suede jacket thing

00:03:32   from one of the big mainstream stores on clearance

00:03:35   on their website.

00:03:36   I was doing the find my fit thing.

00:03:37   Oh, should I get a smaller or medium?

00:03:39   It was like, all right, which of these popular brands

00:03:41   do you own something from to compare?

00:03:44   And it listed all basically the mall clothing brands,

00:03:47   all the big names.

00:03:48   And I literally had zero shirts from any of them.

00:03:52   (laughing)

00:03:53   'Cause all my stuff is from internet brands.

00:03:56   - That's amazing.

00:03:57   - So it really told me, wow, I'm living in a very

00:04:00   different world than most people with my fashion choices.

00:04:04   - So John, it is after July in Boston.

00:04:09   So I assume you have on approximately,

00:04:10   let me do some mental math, carry the one, 15 layers on?

00:04:14   - It's been still pretty hot here.

00:04:16   We've been having the thing where the summer lasts

00:04:18   longer and longer.

00:04:19   We had like an 80 degree days last week,

00:04:21   so I was still in shorts and a t-shirt.

00:04:22   But yeah, now we're back to fall weather at least here.

00:04:26   So it was like, what, 39 degrees this morning.

00:04:29   I was thinking about it, I'm kind of dressed like

00:04:32   how people dress in the hospital.

00:04:34   Like if you're in the hospital, but you're like--

00:04:35   - What?

00:04:36   (laughing)

00:04:37   - You're not stuck in a bed.

00:04:38   Like you're a patient in a hospital,

00:04:39   you've been there for a while,

00:04:39   but you're not stuck in a bed.

00:04:41   - Do you have your rump covered right now

00:04:42   or is that flapping in the breeze

00:04:43   because you have a hospital gown on?

00:04:45   - Not like that, but just like what are the most comfortable

00:04:48   clothes that you wear when you don't care

00:04:50   if anybody sees you and that's how I dress

00:04:52   pretty much all the time.

00:04:53   That's living the dream.

00:04:55   Yeah, so I'm just wearing sweatpants and a sweatshirt.

00:04:59   - What did you wear?

00:05:00   Wow, did you hear my voice crack there?

00:05:01   Apparently you're going through puberty today as well.

00:05:03   What did you, what did you, what did you wear?

00:05:05   - Putting on a lot of costumes today.

00:05:07   (laughing)

00:05:09   - What did you wear when you went to the office?

00:05:10   Was your--

00:05:11   - I always wear jeans, I wear jeans and sneakers,

00:05:14   running shoes usually.

00:05:15   And then I would wear some kind of long sleeve shirt

00:05:19   just sometimes with a collar.

00:05:22   You've seen my long sleeves like striped rugby shirts.

00:05:25   I have various other kind of like waffle-y pattern shirts.

00:05:28   Not too dressy, but it was always long sleeve

00:05:30   even in the summer because the air conditioning

00:05:32   was freezing in the office all the time.

00:05:34   - That's big John Energy there.

00:05:35   - And it's a t-shirt underneath.

00:05:36   Like I'm wearing a t-shirt underneath my sweatshirt,

00:05:38   t-shirt underneath whatever long sleeve thing

00:05:40   I would wear to work.

00:05:41   - Yeah, this is also controversial these days.

00:05:43   I always wear what I would call an undershirt.

00:05:45   It's just a white tee under my clothes,

00:05:48   regardless of the time of year.

00:05:49   And this is apparently a very nerdy or old man thing to do.

00:05:53   - What?

00:05:54   No, it's a sweat control thing.

00:05:56   - That's what I thought.

00:05:57   - At minimum, if you wear a long sleeve thing

00:06:01   on top of nothing, it's gonna be sweatier in there

00:06:04   and grosser smelling.

00:06:05   - Yeah, you can't do that.

00:06:06   That's illegal.

00:06:07   I will say though, it is kind of amazing.

00:06:09   We're recording this on Halloween

00:06:10   and Apple's done this spooky event.

00:06:13   Can you think of anything scarier than tech podcasters

00:06:16   talking fashion?

00:06:17   (laughing)

00:06:18   - We're really good in the spirit.

00:06:19   - I mean, we're talking about clothing.

00:06:20   Let's, yeah, that's all that's--

00:06:22   - Is that that much better?

00:06:24   - We do cover our bodies with stuff.

00:06:27   Fashion, I feel like is something different.

00:06:29   - We should probably dig in and as per tradition

00:06:33   and as per the pre-flight that none of you got to hear,

00:06:36   we are not allowed to talk follow-up

00:06:37   and we will jump straight to Apple's October 30th event.

00:06:42   This was very quick.

00:06:43   It clocked in at, I think just barely over 30 minutes.

00:06:46   So if by ATP tradition says we should go somewhere

00:06:51   between two and three hours this episode.

00:06:53   So we'll see what happens.

00:06:54   But we're getting a lot of attention to the Mac

00:06:57   and all the good Macs 'cause we don't have to talk

00:06:59   about the Mac Pro, right, John?

00:07:00   - Ooh, sick burn.

00:07:01   - I mean, they did really emphasize

00:07:03   that they were talking about laptops,

00:07:04   but you know, whose fault is that?

00:07:06   Not ours.

00:07:08   - It's mine.

00:07:09   It's actually Marco and mine 'cause we don't have desktop.

00:07:11   - No, it's Apple's fault.

00:07:13   - Yeah, it was interesting.

00:07:15   Right from the start, there was Tim Cook's intro.

00:07:18   Well, first there was a little video

00:07:20   about how Macs are doing all this hard work

00:07:22   and making it easy on us, which was cute, fine, forgettable.

00:07:26   But the cool thing was they did this event at night

00:07:30   and it had this Halloween theme, the whole thing.

00:07:34   They're playing all these spooky sounds

00:07:36   and there's the choir chanting in the background

00:07:39   as they zoom through Apple Park at night.

00:07:41   And then Tim comes in and says, "Good evening,"

00:07:43   'cause he normally--

00:07:44   - He should have said good evening like a vampire,

00:07:46   but he didn't.

00:07:46   - I don't think he has that in him.

00:07:48   - Yeah, right?

00:07:49   - It is not possible to make Apple Park spooky, I'm sorry.

00:07:52   I'm not sure.

00:07:53   It's kind of like, do they have Halloween in California?

00:07:56   All I can say is at Apple Park, not spooky.

00:07:59   Like, they can't, I don't know if they have fall there,

00:08:02   but they did amazing effects, amazing visual effects

00:08:05   by adding fog and it's dark

00:08:07   and they have fake bats flying around.

00:08:08   I was like, great, good.

00:08:10   It's not spooky.

00:08:10   Apple Park is not spooky.

00:08:11   Anyway, I give them an E for effort.

00:08:14   - Yeah, I mean, it's, look,

00:08:16   what Apple is challenged to do recently

00:08:20   is not seem like one of the biggest corporations

00:08:23   in the world run by mostly a bunch of older white men.

00:08:25   - The way to do that is not to spend this much money

00:08:27   on a half an hour presentation

00:08:29   where you introduce a couple of rats.

00:08:31   How much money did this cost?

00:08:33   - Yeah, but I gotta give them credit.

00:08:35   To whatever degree they are able to

00:08:38   as a giant corporation,

00:08:40   they seem to have some fun with this.

00:08:43   And yeah, of course it's still a very corporate,

00:08:45   basically commercial, but they did have some fun with it.

00:08:49   I think it worked.

00:08:50   I think it would be a little much

00:08:52   if they did this frequently, but they don't.

00:08:54   So it was a fun thing for this one.

00:08:56   - It kinda reminds me of the holiday events they have

00:08:58   in live service video games,

00:09:00   like video games that are ongoing,

00:09:02   sometimes you pay a subscription or whatever.

00:09:03   Like, they'll always have like a,

00:09:05   some kind of non-denominational winter holiday event

00:09:09   and something for Halloween or whatever.

00:09:11   Just because that's a fun thing to do

00:09:12   because you have a bunch of people who are there

00:09:14   and you want to mark the change of the holiday

00:09:16   so you take your game stuff and you're like,

00:09:18   "Oh, let's have pumpkins on top of our sci-fi setting

00:09:20   or our fantasy world or whatever."

00:09:22   And now it's like Apple's doing that too

00:09:23   because I guess their keynote events

00:09:25   are kind of like a live service game

00:09:26   where the community that's always hanging around.

00:09:28   So yeah, I endorse it.

00:09:29   I think it's fun.

00:09:30   It was just a little bit silly.

00:09:32   - Yeah, and it wasn't too heavy-handed, like you guys said.

00:09:35   I loved Johnny Srouji's "Welcome to My Lab."

00:09:37   I don't know, there's just,

00:09:38   something about that just made me giggle.

00:09:39   - He could have done that in a vampire accent.

00:09:41   - Also true.

00:09:42   But yeah, so we're here to quote,

00:09:44   "Celebrate a product we all love, the Mac."

00:09:46   Which, I don't know, I'm here for it,

00:09:48   but it just kind of struck me funny

00:09:50   that we're now saying a product that we all love, the Mac,

00:09:52   when we were all pretty convinced

00:09:54   and I feel like it was all but officially stated

00:09:56   that nobody cared about the Mac for a few years.

00:09:59   - But they've turned that around.

00:10:00   I mean, I feel like now at this point,

00:10:02   it's a little bit where every time they emphasize it,

00:10:06   it makes me believe them less now.

00:10:08   But anyway, the point is, with their actions,

00:10:09   they've shown that they do.

00:10:11   So I feel like they don't need to say it anymore.

00:10:14   What they've done has convinced us all.

00:10:16   Yes, you're doing good.

00:10:18   - Yep, yep, agreed.

00:10:19   So we go talk to Johnny and for the first time,

00:10:23   to the best of my recollection,

00:10:24   I believe Stephen Hackett had a post about this.

00:10:26   I'll try to link that in the show notes,

00:10:27   but for the first time, we got all three,

00:10:29   or three of the four, we would assume,

00:10:32   of the different flavors of M3 all at once.

00:10:35   We got the M3, the M3 Pro, and the M3 Max,

00:10:38   and all three nanometer.

00:10:40   Which three nanometer though, John?

00:10:41   How do we know?

00:10:42   - Yeah, so that's tricky.

00:10:43   So having them all at once is interesting.

00:10:47   It makes it for a good presentation.

00:10:48   Like great, they can like roll out the whole,

00:10:50   the quote unquote whole line out really.

00:10:51   Obviously, we assume there's gonna be an ultra

00:10:53   and maybe one more, but probably not.

00:10:55   It's great that they can roll them all out at the same time.

00:10:58   Why?

00:10:59   Why are they able to roll them out at the same time?

00:11:02   That is the mystery.

00:11:04   Is it because the M3 is late,

00:11:07   and so it came out at the same time as the other ones?

00:11:10   I think I said that in the last episode,

00:11:11   and someone sent in some follow-ups saying,

00:11:13   actually, if you measure the time

00:11:16   from between the M1 and M2,

00:11:18   the M3 is not behind schedule.

00:11:20   The plain old M3 is not behind schedule.

00:11:22   In fact, it had like a month or two more to go

00:11:25   to still be on schedule, so I apologize for that mistake.

00:11:28   But so what that means is basically the M3,

00:11:29   if you look at the spacing between the plain M1,

00:11:31   the plain M2, and the plain M3,

00:11:33   this is more or less on schedule for that chip,

00:11:36   if not a little bit early.

00:11:38   And that means the Pro and the Max are very early

00:11:41   because they usually come after the plain M3.

00:11:43   We talked about it in the last episode.

00:11:45   What, you know, you were in the same case,

00:11:47   like maybe this won't be three nanometer, right?

00:11:49   Which is a reasonable thing to think,

00:11:50   'cause like what could, you know,

00:11:52   we've heard all about the M3D process

00:11:54   and how it's expensive,

00:11:56   and how like they wanna move on

00:11:58   as quickly as possible to M3E.

00:11:59   This is TSMC we're talking about,

00:12:01   which will be less expensive because it has better yields,

00:12:04   and Apple is the only company that's buying M3B.

00:12:08   And in the earnings call that we talked about

00:12:10   in the last episode, TSMC said they would be ramping up

00:12:13   volume production in the fourth quarter of 2023 on M3E.

00:12:16   And we're like, hey, it's the fourth quarter of 2023.

00:12:20   Maybe these chips will be on M3E.

00:12:22   Obviously, as predicted, Apple did not use the phrases

00:12:26   TSMC, M3B, or M3E anywhere in any of their presentations

00:12:30   or media communication about this.

00:12:32   I'm not sure if ask a direct question

00:12:34   if they would answer the question.

00:12:37   So we are left to speculate.

00:12:39   One thing they did say though is three nanometers.

00:12:41   So that narrows it down substantially.

00:12:43   It's one of those M3 somethings,

00:12:45   and the only two possible ones we think it could be

00:12:47   is M3B or M3E.

00:12:48   And last episode, it seems like,

00:12:51   hey, M3E, volume production fourth quarter,

00:12:53   that must be what they're doing.

00:12:55   But our good friend Jonathan Deets Jr.

00:12:58   wrote in to tell us, this is an inserted follow-up

00:13:01   into an event episode, unprecedented.

00:13:03   - Ooh, what? - But it has to be done.

00:13:04   - What?

00:13:05   I'm telling Jon, this is unacceptable.

00:13:08   - But it's very relevant, because that's what we were

00:13:09   thinking, like, what the hell?

00:13:10   So here's what he says.

00:13:12   M3B cycle times, reading from his message here,

00:13:15   M3B cycle times are extremely long.

00:13:17   The cycle time is the total amount of time it takes

00:13:19   to go from wafer start, when blank silicon wafer

00:13:22   begins its journey, to wafer out,

00:13:23   when a finished wafer comes off the production line.

00:13:25   Exposure times for EUV, that's extreme ultraviolet

00:13:28   lithography tools, are considerably longer

00:13:30   than for DUV tools.

00:13:31   Or is that not extreme?

00:13:33   D, I don't know what the D stands for anyway.

00:13:34   It's less extreme than E.

00:13:36   - Wait, hold on, real quick, didn't they mention,

00:13:38   I swear they mentioned something about

00:13:40   ultraviolet lithography very briefly.

00:13:42   - Yeah, yeah, no, they did.

00:13:42   Like, that's emphasizing that all the three

00:13:44   nanometer things are EUV.

00:13:46   But anyway, remember we talked about

00:13:47   how many different exposures?

00:13:48   Anyway, continuing from the thing here.

00:13:50   That means the more EUV steps a process requires,

00:13:54   the longer it takes.

00:13:55   The cycle time for M3B, the most EUV intensive

00:13:58   manufacturing process to date, is said to be

00:14:00   in excess of 100 days.

00:14:03   That means Apple likely had to begin ramping up

00:14:05   production of the A17 Pro and Q1 of this year

00:14:07   in order to ensure sufficient inventory

00:14:09   for September iPhone release.

00:14:10   And he continues, anything three nanometer

00:14:13   that ships this year is M3B.

00:14:16   M3E should just be reaching volume

00:14:17   manufacturing milestone now.

00:14:19   That means TSMC will start to manufacture

00:14:21   the first orders now, with finished wafers 90 days out.

00:14:25   Those wafers will still need to be diced

00:14:26   into individual ships, tested, sorted, packaged,

00:14:29   sent to the device manufacturer to be included

00:14:31   in the final end user product.

00:14:32   Then that needs to be assembled, packaged,

00:14:34   and shipped around the world to various

00:14:35   retail channels prior to the product launch.

00:14:37   Apple requires volume manufacturing by April to ship now.

00:14:40   M3E products and shipping in 2023 has always

00:14:43   been a non-starter since the day TSMC announced M3E.

00:14:46   So here's Jonathan coming down strongly saying,

00:14:48   these cannot be M3E because there's no way

00:14:51   anything would be produced in time for that.

00:14:54   Which means, leaving the only alternative,

00:14:56   that these would be M3B.

00:14:58   Which, as we said, is the more expensive,

00:15:00   but better, higher density, more layers, whatever, process.

00:15:05   And that is interesting because, you know,

00:15:08   obviously we knew they would do it for the phone.

00:15:11   You gotta do what you gotta do, phone's gotta be out,

00:15:13   you want it to be three nanometers, spend the money.

00:15:15   Do it on M3B.

00:15:18   But here we have a full suite of the main M3 family

00:15:23   of processors for Macs that seem like

00:15:27   it's likely they are on M3B.

00:15:30   Related to that, and possibly, you know,

00:15:33   hurting Jonathan's credibility,

00:15:34   but I think I'll include it here.

00:15:36   Before the event, Jonathan said,

00:15:39   an M3 max size die on a three nanometer process

00:15:43   is impossible right now due to the economics

00:15:45   of making it ship that size in this point

00:15:47   in the yield curve.

00:15:49   Defect densities have to settle down

00:15:50   before you can go that big.

00:15:51   If Apple were to do that, it would be unprecedented

00:15:53   on so many levels.

00:15:55   Well, they did it.

00:15:56   (laughing)

00:15:58   Because they said three nanometer,

00:16:00   and they introduced the Pro and the Max and the Plane,

00:16:02   and they're all three nanometers.

00:16:03   So after the event, Jonathan had this to say.

00:16:05   This lends credence to the rumor

00:16:07   that Apple struck a deal with TSMC

00:16:08   to only pay for known good dies

00:16:11   rather than paying for a fixed wafer cost.

00:16:13   What a deal, like, you know,

00:16:14   we don't wanna pay for your mistakes, just, right.

00:16:16   He says, I guess if you give TSMC $3.5 billion,

00:16:20   they'll run their leading edge fab at full capacity

00:16:22   for the better part of the year to deliver your order,

00:16:24   even if they end up scrapping half the output.

00:16:27   It is the most efficient way to run the fab

00:16:28   and the quickest way to improve yields.

00:16:30   Like I said before, unprecedented.

00:16:32   So this all seems reasonable to me,

00:16:36   the fact that these would be M3B.

00:16:37   It also fits with the rumor we were saying about,

00:16:39   oh, Apple's manufactured all these IMAX,

00:16:41   which we'll get to later, already,

00:16:43   and they're sitting around since June or August.

00:16:45   With all the lead times involved

00:16:46   and the fact that they said they'd begin volume production

00:16:48   and it takes 100 days from the time a silicon wafer goes in

00:16:52   to the time it comes out finished,

00:16:54   I am willing to believe that these are M3B,

00:16:56   which is kind of cool from our perspective,

00:16:59   because again, M3B is the best process available.

00:17:02   M3E will be cheaper, but slightly worse,

00:17:06   and then there'll be the other processes after that.

00:17:08   So this is pretty cool.

00:17:10   If either Apple is eating this cost

00:17:13   or Apple is forcing TSMC to eat this cost,

00:17:16   we may be getting better three nanometer MAC chips

00:17:18   than we would have otherwise.

00:17:20   - I think the only weird kind of side note to this

00:17:23   is that by all accounts from every analyst,

00:17:27   including Jonathan Dietz, who knows a lot about this,

00:17:29   a lot more than us, and all the tech analysts

00:17:32   who follow the chip business more closely,

00:17:33   by all accounts, this M3 or M3B,

00:17:36   as it's called by a lot of us,

00:17:38   this process is quote, a dead end,

00:17:40   meaning that it doesn't seem like TSMC intends

00:17:43   to produce these for a long time into the future

00:17:45   on this process.

00:17:47   And if you look at Apple's products,

00:17:49   the Pro and Max chips in each family of these M series chips,

00:17:54   they're like the iPhone Pro line.

00:17:57   They're produced for only the time

00:17:59   they are the current version.

00:18:01   And as soon as a new version comes out,

00:18:02   like as soon as the M2 Pro and Max came out,

00:18:05   they stopped selling things with the M1 Pro and Max in them.

00:18:09   So they could stop manufacturing the M1 Pro and Max,

00:18:11   presumably, around that time,

00:18:12   or you know, shortly before, or whatever.

00:18:14   And so with this, we've assumed,

00:18:16   and I was speculating last episode,

00:18:19   that maybe the reason they would do the M3 Pro and Max now,

00:18:23   but not do things earlier,

00:18:25   actually, I wasn't even talking about that,

00:18:26   I was talking about the A17 Pro,

00:18:27   but regardless, if TSMC is not intending

00:18:30   to run this process for a long time,

00:18:33   then Apple probably isn't gonna be selling these chips

00:18:36   for longer than the current generation,

00:18:39   which is interesting in the context of, say, the iMac,

00:18:42   which was on a two year cycle before.

00:18:44   Are they gonna keep making non-Pro M3s

00:18:47   for longer than they make the M3 Pro and Max?

00:18:51   On this process, that's apparently a dead end, maybe?

00:18:53   I don't know how the timelines work on that.

00:18:55   - Again, you keep talking about it as dead end.

00:18:57   Like, I know what you mean,

00:18:58   in saying that they're not gonna keep running this

00:18:59   for five, six, seven years.

00:19:00   Like, I feel like that's true of all their processes,

00:19:03   is that they eventually get to the most economical variant

00:19:06   of five nanometer, or seven nanometer, whatever,

00:19:09   and that's the one they run for years,

00:19:10   'cause they have a bunch of ones that are not quite as good

00:19:12   that they run for short periods of time,

00:19:14   but eventually they find the one that is the sweet spot.

00:19:16   I don't know how they pick that.

00:19:17   Is it the cheapest?

00:19:18   Is it the one with the best yields?

00:19:19   Whatever.

00:19:20   Is it the highest performance?

00:19:21   But yeah, the very first one you do

00:19:23   is probably not the one you're gonna be running for years,

00:19:25   and I forget, I've already deleted this from the notes,

00:19:27   but I forget which one of these processes

00:19:29   were sort of compatible.

00:19:30   Like, the idea that if you have a chip design,

00:19:32   and you've designed it for N3B,

00:19:34   can you use it in N3E?

00:19:35   Can you use it in N3S or P, or all these other things?

00:19:39   It's not always straightforward to say,

00:19:40   "Oh, I'll just use your new process

00:19:42   "to fab my chip that I already designed."

00:19:45   That's not always easy to do.

00:19:47   So I get where you're going, it's like,

00:19:48   look, if they're gonna make M3s

00:19:49   for the next two to three years in that iMac,

00:19:53   does that mean TSMC's running N3B for three years,

00:19:56   instead of stopping running it as soon as they possibly can?

00:20:01   The thing I think about related to that question is,

00:20:04   what are the volumes?

00:20:06   Like, maybe they sell so few Macs compared to iPhones,

00:20:10   that they'll just fab all the M3 chips on N3B, they think,

00:20:14   within the next six months, right, they think they need.

00:20:17   We'll just get 'em all, put 'em in a box,

00:20:18   put 'em off to the side.

00:20:20   Same thing with the Mac chips, maybe.

00:20:21   Maybe I'm wrong, maybe they would never do that,

00:20:23   and it's like, you'd be guessing.

00:20:24   - I doubt it, 'cause think about the risk you'd be running

00:20:27   of there being a big shortage if you ran out,

00:20:29   and then you didn't have a new MacBook Pro

00:20:31   slated for six months away,

00:20:33   then you just couldn't make MacBook Pros?

00:20:34   - Yeah, no, and plus, you'd have to pay for them up front,

00:20:36   it is mysterious, but here's the thing.

00:20:39   If these really are N3B, then people are like,

00:20:42   "Oh, the only thing that will ever be an N3B is the A17 Pro."

00:20:45   If these are really N3B, that assumption was wrong.

00:20:48   Like, the idea is that, yes, N3B is more expensive

00:20:52   and crappy or whatever, but maybe Apple is saying,

00:20:54   "I don't care," because the three-animator process

00:20:57   from TSMC came out later than TSMC originally

00:21:00   had hoped it would, right?

00:21:01   And I think it came out later than Apple had hoped it would.

00:21:03   That was part of the rumor with the new GPU core

00:21:06   that's in the A17 Pro and also in these Mac chips.

00:21:08   That GPU core was rumored for last year,

00:21:11   well, not last year, really, but anyway,

00:21:13   that was rumored for the M2 generation.

00:21:16   But I think that GPU was designed for three-nanometers,

00:21:19   so of course, they couldn't put it on the M2,

00:21:20   because three-nanometer wasn't ready.

00:21:21   So I think that has disrupted everything here,

00:21:25   and maybe Apple is saying,

00:21:26   "Look, I know you don't wanna do it,

00:21:27   "and I know the financial terms of our deal

00:21:30   "would mean that we're kinda screwing you

00:21:31   "by making you do it, but you're just gonna have to keep

00:21:34   "making the N3B stuff for us for longer

00:21:36   "than you would otherwise want to, eating the costs."

00:21:39   And I know you basically said you can never make it

00:21:41   as good as N3E in terms of yields,

00:21:43   and every chip you make, you're gonna have to throw out

00:21:45   half of them or whatever, but tough luck,

00:21:47   because that's what we need you to do,

00:21:49   and we're your biggest customer,

00:21:50   and so there may be something like that going on.

00:21:52   I guess we'll find out.

00:21:54   There are still unknowns here.

00:21:55   First, we don't know that these are N3B.

00:21:57   We think they might be based on this feedback,

00:21:59   but we don't know for sure.

00:22:00   Surely, once people get these chips

00:22:01   and start chopping them open or something,

00:22:03   someone will be able to tell, and second is,

00:22:06   we'll have to wait to see how long.

00:22:07   Maybe they actually update the iMac to the M4.

00:22:11   Maybe they just sell it with the M3 briefly.

00:22:13   Maybe the M4 comes sooner than we think

00:22:14   now that three nanometer is selling down.

00:22:16   There's a lot of questions here,

00:22:17   but I think despite all the questions,

00:22:19   I think it seems like the outcome is good no matter what.

00:22:24   We don't have these chips in our hands yet,

00:22:26   and we'll talk about their specs in a second,

00:22:27   but if they're N3B, we like that

00:22:31   because that's the best process,

00:22:32   and if they're not, we like that because it means

00:22:35   that we got this whole family of chips all at once

00:22:38   when maybe we wouldn't have.

00:22:40   Even though I'm curious about the details here,

00:22:44   I think no matter what the case is,

00:22:46   I'm happy with all these chips coming out all at once,

00:22:49   and I'm happy that they're all three nanometer.

00:22:51   - I think the real tell will be

00:22:54   whether we end up seeing the M3

00:22:57   in products that are usually kept around

00:23:00   as the cheaper last year's model.

00:23:01   So for instance, the MacBook Air,

00:23:03   that would be a real tell.

00:23:05   Does the MacBook Air get the M3?

00:23:07   Maybe the MacBook Air stays on M2 and skips M3

00:23:10   and goes right to M4.

00:23:11   - Yeah, 'cause the MacBook Air has higher volume.

00:23:13   That's what we're talking about.

00:23:14   They usually roll out the plain M3,

00:23:16   and they usually roll that out first in the cheap computer,

00:23:17   but here they are rolling out the plain M3,

00:23:19   but they're not rolling it out on the cheap laptop first,

00:23:22   maybe because the cheap laptops sell too many.

00:23:24   - Yeah, or maybe they are longer term

00:23:28   gonna create some segmentation,

00:23:29   and maybe they're gonna always keep the MacBook Air

00:23:31   one behind the Pro, who knows?

00:23:33   I mean, there's lots of different paths they could take here

00:23:35   and typically, we are presented as the public

00:23:39   and the nerds are in the circle.

00:23:41   Apple presents us with a product lineup

00:23:44   that generally abstracts away

00:23:47   all of the stuff that's happening below,

00:23:49   behind the scenes with chip manufacturing

00:23:51   and supply chain, stuff like that.

00:23:52   We don't see any of that.

00:23:54   All we see is this year you got M3,

00:23:57   last year you had M2.

00:23:58   You have those nice clean, the illusion

00:24:02   of a much simpler arrangement behind the scenes

00:24:05   than what actually is going on.

00:24:07   Occasionally, some detail about the manufacturing situation

00:24:11   leaks out into the products,

00:24:12   where you get, oftentimes you get some weird long delay

00:24:16   before a product gets updated,

00:24:18   or something skips a generation,

00:24:20   and oftentimes the reasons for that

00:24:21   are some of those details.

00:24:23   I think it'll be interesting to see

00:24:24   as we go through the next year to 18 months,

00:24:28   what happens to the M3 line after it's no longer the newest?

00:24:32   Does it stick around?

00:24:33   Does certain products never get it?

00:24:36   Who knows?

00:24:36   - Does Apple revise it so it does work on an M3e?

00:24:39   'Cause that's a thing they can do.

00:24:40   You know, it's more cost, more work, more time,

00:24:43   but if they really do want to keep

00:24:45   the plain old M3 around for a long time

00:24:46   and eventually put it in the MacBook Air

00:24:47   and they want it to be an M3e,

00:24:49   they can change it to make sure it works with M3e.

00:24:52   - We are brought to you this week by Trade Coffee,

00:24:57   helping you make the best coffee you can right at home

00:25:00   and discover all sorts of new coffees.

00:25:02   So the best way to make great coffee at home

00:25:05   is freshly roasted beans.

00:25:07   Coffee goes kinda stale after not that long.

00:25:10   So with Trade, they know fresh is best.

00:25:12   So every coffee sent to you has been roasted within 48 hours

00:25:15   and shipped directly to you by one of their partner roasters.

00:25:19   And they connect you to the best roasters in the country

00:25:22   so that you can discover all sorts of great coffee

00:25:24   to brew at home.

00:25:25   They have over 450 coffees to choose from.

00:25:28   So Trade guarantees you'll find something new to love.

00:25:32   And this is great for discovering

00:25:34   all sorts of new craft coffee.

00:25:36   These are from over 55 of the top indie roasters

00:25:39   in the country so that you can make

00:25:40   your best cup of coffee at home every day.

00:25:43   And they curate it to your taste.

00:25:45   So they use their matching algorithm

00:25:47   to curate exactly what you will like.

00:25:50   And they have these wonderful feedback mechanisms

00:25:53   if you want to tweak anything,

00:25:54   but honestly, you probably won't need to.

00:25:55   I haven't needed to.

00:25:56   And they also have created flexible subscription plans

00:25:59   and a diverse assortment of roasts

00:26:00   tailored to whatever your volume needs,

00:26:03   taste preferences, whatever it is.

00:26:05   You can of course pause it, cancel it,

00:26:07   change whatever you need to change anytime.

00:26:09   It's super easy to manage.

00:26:10   And it's all, all the coffee is roasted fresh to order.

00:26:14   I love fresh roasted coffee and Trade is an amazing way

00:26:18   to discover all sorts of great new beans,

00:26:21   great new roasters, great new roasts.

00:26:23   I really enjoy Trade.

00:26:25   So upgrade your morning routine with better coffee.

00:26:28   Right now, Trade is offering you a free bag of coffee

00:26:32   with any new subscription at drinktrade.com/atp.

00:26:36   That's drinktrade.com/atp for a free bag of coffee

00:26:41   with any subscription purchase.

00:26:42   Drinktrade.com/atp.

00:26:46   Thanks to Trade Coffee for sponsoring our show.

00:26:48   - So where did we leave off?

00:26:53   We're still in the lab with Johnny

00:26:55   and we're talking about how it's three nanometer.

00:26:59   And then something was brought up

00:27:00   and I genuinely don't understand what this is.

00:27:04   Like I understand the words that were used

00:27:06   in the explanation, but I don't think

00:27:07   I understand the application.

00:27:09   So Johnny starts talking about dynamic caching

00:27:11   and he says it's in the hardware,

00:27:13   it's transparent to developers.

00:27:14   And he starts explaining that, oh, you know,

00:27:17   a lot of decisions are made at compile time

00:27:20   and we're gonna basically do them just in time at runtime

00:27:22   with regard to memory allocation, specifically on the GPU.

00:27:27   John, do you have any idea what this is about

00:27:28   or Marco, either of you, can you explain it?

00:27:31   - In the presentation, it was very confusing.

00:27:34   They showed some diagrams that basically saying,

00:27:36   we're making more efficient use of resources,

00:27:37   which I think is the level you should present that

00:27:39   if you're gonna say anything about it at all

00:27:41   in this kind of presentation.

00:27:42   Fine, you showed me diagram,

00:27:43   I can look at the little boxes and say,

00:27:44   you're making more efficient use of resources,

00:27:46   thumbs up, right?

00:27:47   But from a technical perspective,

00:27:49   I didn't know what they were talking about.

00:27:51   - Here is a quote from Jason Snell's article

00:27:54   and he actually talked to Apple folks.

00:27:56   So I'm hoping he has a better take on it,

00:27:58   but I still have questions.

00:27:59   So we'll put a link in the show notes to his article,

00:28:01   quoting from Jason.

00:28:02   "Memory is usually allocated to different threads

00:28:05   at compile time,

00:28:07   meaning that some threads allocate a larger amount of memory

00:28:09   in order to handle peak need,

00:28:10   while other threads might choose a smaller amount of memory,

00:28:12   but risk a bottleneck.

00:28:14   The M3 graphics system dynamically allocates

00:28:16   the memory per thread in a way

00:28:17   that's completely transparent to software developers.

00:28:20   Apps don't need to be rewritten to take advantage

00:28:21   of the new system,

00:28:22   which Apple says makes some huge gains

00:28:23   by bringing a lot of memory efficiency out of the system.

00:28:26   Memory that was previously reserved for a specific thread

00:28:28   can be given to a different thread instead.

00:28:30   A thread that's in a bottleneck can be given more space.

00:28:33   It's all to the goal of increasing overall throughput."

00:28:36   So here's the question that I have

00:28:38   about this whole big thing.

00:28:40   Apple's architecture, as they emphasize many times,

00:28:43   is a unified memory architecture

00:28:44   where there is not a separate pool of VRAM and regular RAM.

00:28:48   There's just a pool of RAM and the GPU has access to it

00:28:51   and the CPUs have access to it.

00:28:53   This idea of allocating memory to threads at compile time

00:28:58   based on their peak need in the GPU,

00:29:01   there's too many words there that I don't understand.

00:29:04   - Right? Okay, so it's not just me.

00:29:05   - Yeah, so here are some possibilities.

00:29:08   Again, hopefully someone with knowledge

00:29:09   of Apple's GPU architecture will write in and tell us.

00:29:12   One, even though there's a unified pool of memory,

00:29:15   maybe the GPU, just like the CPU, has a cache hierarchy.

00:29:18   Or maybe it is the CPU's cache hierarchy

00:29:21   of level one cache, level two cache, so on and so forth.

00:29:23   And maybe those chunks of small pools of local cache memory

00:29:28   that are local to the GPU or local to the GPU cores,

00:29:32   maybe that's what's being statically allocated

00:29:35   at compile time, where when you compile something

00:29:37   for some code that's gonna run on the GPU,

00:29:40   it says, "Okay, for this thread

00:29:42   "where you're gonna be running,

00:29:43   "you're gonna need this much memory

00:29:44   "and what memory are they talking about?"

00:29:46   Some kind of tiny, very local pool of memory

00:29:50   inside the GPU core.

00:29:51   That is a possibility, 'cause GPU cores do that,

00:29:54   there is cache hierarchy does exist or whatever.

00:29:57   The second possibility is they're talking about

00:29:59   chunks of main memory, and somehow things that run

00:30:02   on the GPU, again, are hard-coded at compile time

00:30:06   to preallocate chunks of main memory

00:30:08   that they sort of have exclusive access to for their threads

00:30:11   so they don't thrash with that memory getting pulled.

00:30:13   Maybe they wire it so it doesn't get swapped out or whatever

00:30:16   and that's what they're using more efficiently?

00:30:18   I don't know, I don't know the answers to those questions.

00:30:21   This also could, with anything that Apple says about GPUs,

00:30:24   it's very possible that what they're saying

00:30:26   is either something that has existed in the,

00:30:29   quote-unquote, PC GPU space for ages,

00:30:31   but Apple just has a different name for it,

00:30:32   or they're doing something new to accomplish a task

00:30:35   that PC GPUs have been doing for a long time.

00:30:37   It's very rare that Apple does anything with their GPUs

00:30:40   that is unprecedented in the GPU,

00:30:42   where they're not the GPU leader,

00:30:43   but they do do interesting things

00:30:45   because their trade-offs are different.

00:30:46   So maybe this thing that they're doing is novel

00:30:50   in that the PC GPU world just uses brute force

00:30:52   and they don't care about this,

00:30:53   but Apple does care about more efficient use of resources.

00:30:55   So I understand conceptually that it's basically saying,

00:30:57   "Hey, your program may be written to do this,

00:31:00   "but that is an inefficient use of resources,"

00:31:02   what those resources are, we're not sure.

00:31:04   And so dynamically, without your program knowing,

00:31:07   we will shuffle things around

00:31:08   to make more efficient use of resources, and that's good.

00:31:11   So again, even though we don't understand this,

00:31:13   kind of like the N3E, N3B thing,

00:31:15   even though we don't know the details,

00:31:17   it all sounds good, right?

00:31:18   More efficient use of resources is better.

00:31:22   We can't really, I was thinking about this

00:31:25   when we were watching the presentation.

00:31:27   We're gonna talk all about this presentation

00:31:29   that Apple gave, and Apple did provide

00:31:30   a bunch of performance charts,

00:31:32   but when I was thinking about what we were gonna discuss,

00:31:33   I'm like, "Well, of course we can't talk about performance."

00:31:36   And the reason I say, "Of course we can't talk

00:31:37   "about performance," is the only thing we have to go on

00:31:39   are Apple's charts that have like, they're so abstract

00:31:43   that they might as well, they're not Bezos charts,

00:31:45   'cause there is like, there are labels on the axes, kind of,

00:31:48   but they're real close.

00:31:49   I feel like we can't talk about performance

00:31:51   until people actually get these and start testing them

00:31:53   and benchmarking them.

00:31:55   Because Apple's claims, it's not that they're useless,

00:31:59   it's good to know what they think in the ballpark,

00:32:01   but with respect to dynamic caching,

00:32:04   that's all well and good, cool presentation.

00:32:08   What does this mean for the performance of this GPU

00:32:11   in a given task?

00:32:12   Does it run games at a higher frame rate?

00:32:14   Does it do some rendering thing in some video app faster?

00:32:17   Like, I don't care that much about the details

00:32:22   of the tech stuff in terms of like, a presentation

00:32:25   meant for the general public, unless it provides something.

00:32:29   And they didn't say, "Hey, now that we've done

00:32:31   "dynamic caching, you get an hour extra battery life

00:32:33   "when playing Resident Evil Village on your MacBook Pro,"

00:32:36   or something like that, because we make more efficient use

00:32:37   of resources so it burns less power to play the game

00:32:41   at the same frame rate, or something like that.

00:32:42   They didn't make any claims like that, really.

00:32:45   So I say the jury's still out on dynamic caching.

00:32:47   Seems cool, I would love to see it in a WWDC presentation,

00:32:49   like that's the level you would expect to see

00:32:51   all these little block diagrams and the dynamic allocation,

00:32:54   but it was kind of weird to see it in this presentation.

00:32:56   I get that they're proud of it and it's a new feature

00:32:58   of their GPU, but all I wanna know is,

00:33:00   show me the frame rate, like what is this doing for me?

00:33:03   - So let's talk about the different CPUs,

00:33:07   themselves, we start with the M1, the CPU cores--

00:33:11   - M3. - I'm sorry, sorry, M3,

00:33:14   that's what I meant.

00:33:15   I was reading ahead, the CPU cores, as compared to the M1,

00:33:19   there we go, the performance cores are 30% faster,

00:33:22   the efficiency cores are up to 50% faster.

00:33:27   - That was a good time to mention that Apple loves

00:33:29   to compare this chip to the M1.

00:33:30   - Yeah, this entire presentation was comparing it

00:33:33   to the M1 mostly, and then, oh, also the M2.

00:33:37   Like it was a very, which actually, I love that,

00:33:40   because here I was, I skipped the M2, and so I'm like--

00:33:44   - It's a marker, it's just for you, Marker, yeah.

00:33:46   - No, it was for both of us, it was the ATP presentation,

00:33:48   because I am also sitting on an M1 Max MacBook Pro.

00:33:52   - Yeah, so I get by, and I've said this on Mastodon,

00:33:54   people were like, well, but a lot of people are,

00:33:56   not everyone's upgrading from the M2,

00:33:58   like that's why they do it, like, I don't object to them

00:34:00   comparing it to the M1, I object to them not comparing it

00:34:02   to the M2, right?

00:34:04   - Well, they did both, ultimately,

00:34:05   like they did show, for most of the performance comparisons

00:34:09   they made, they showed M1 and M2 comparisons.

00:34:12   - Yeah, they showed it on the graph,

00:34:14   but they didn't say it as much, or didn't emphasize it.

00:34:16   Sometimes they would just say the M1,

00:34:18   sometimes they would say both of them,

00:34:19   but here's the reason why comparing to the M2 is important,

00:34:22   even if you don't own an M2, because when Apple releases

00:34:26   a new line of computers, especially in the Pro line,

00:34:28   where they're emphasizing performance, like scary fast,

00:34:30   it's the theme here, even if you don't own an M2,

00:34:34   and you just own an M1, what you wanna know,

00:34:37   as a buyer, as a tech nerd buyer, anyway,

00:34:39   is how big of a leap is this new line of computers

00:34:44   over its predecessor?

00:34:45   Like, is this the generation I should buy, right?

00:34:47   'Cause let's say the M2 came out,

00:34:49   and it was 1% better than the M1.

00:34:52   You don't care how much better it is

00:34:53   than like the past Intel one, of course, Apple,

00:34:55   compared stuff to the Intel as well.

00:34:57   You care, like, is this generation like a big leap

00:35:00   over the previous one, is this the time to buy,

00:35:02   or should I wait, is this a generation

00:35:04   that's just kind of like, ah, it's a really incremental

00:35:06   update, maybe you should wait?

00:35:07   And you're not waiting because it's not faster

00:35:09   than what you have, like say you still have Intel, right?

00:35:12   You're waiting because you think, ah, this one seems like

00:35:15   it's not as big a leap over its predecessor

00:35:18   as it could have been, so maybe I should wait.

00:35:19   That's why comparison of the M2 is important.

00:35:21   We're just saying, how well did you do, Apple,

00:35:23   in this new generation?

00:35:25   Is it the same, you know, the distance between the M1

00:35:28   and M2, is the distance between the M2 and the M3 the same?

00:35:31   Is that bigger or smaller, right?

00:35:33   And I think that is a very relevant piece of information

00:35:36   regardless of what you currently own.

00:35:38   Because I think most people, like, everyone doesn't upgrade

00:35:42   every year, right, most people have computers

00:35:44   that are so old that no matter what they get,

00:35:46   it's gonna be fantastically faster.

00:35:48   Like, I'm in that situation and I'm a tech nerd

00:35:51   because I buy these really expensive computers,

00:35:52   it takes a long time to save up this money, right?

00:35:54   But like, you're not questioning whether it's gonna be

00:35:56   faster than what you have, you know if you buy anything,

00:35:58   you know, if you buy like a low-end MacBook Air,

00:36:00   it'll be better than your Intel iMac or something.

00:36:02   What you wanna know as a tech nerd is like,

00:36:04   is this the one to buy?

00:36:05   They really knocked it out of the park this year.

00:36:07   And by knocking it out of the park this year,

00:36:09   what you mean is how much faster is it than the M2?

00:36:11   And that's why I wish they didn't just show the M2 on slides

00:36:16   but also made it the primary source of comparison.

00:36:19   And then I feel like you can say, they can say, you know,

00:36:22   we did, you know, X percent better than last year.

00:36:25   And then they can say, and by the way,

00:36:27   if you've still got an old M1,

00:36:28   look how much better we are.

00:36:30   Like, like ramp it up to that, you know,

00:36:32   don't not compare to the M1, do,

00:36:34   but that's like, that's your cherry on top.

00:36:36   I really wanna know how it compares to the M2.

00:36:37   Anyway, they did put it in the graphs most of the time.

00:36:39   And here's the thing, very often those graphs

00:36:41   were impressive versus the M2.

00:36:43   It's not like they're trying to hide something like,

00:36:44   oh, we can only compare to the M1

00:36:45   'cause it's not that much better than the M2.

00:36:47   No, very often it was better than the M2

00:36:49   by a significant amount.

00:36:50   So weird decision.

00:36:52   - Continuing with the, the vanilla M3,

00:36:55   same multi-threaded performance as the M1

00:36:57   but at half the power.

00:36:58   It's one quarter the power of what they claim

00:37:01   to be an equivalent PC chip or Intel chip.

00:37:04   It's one fifth the power. - Whatever that means.

00:37:06   - Yeah, exactly.

00:37:07   I think they did actually have

00:37:08   in the bottom right hand corner what they were using.

00:37:10   And I think it was an Intel i7, I wanna say,

00:37:12   but I don't remember for sure.

00:37:14   It was, it's one fifth the power of the equivalent PC,

00:37:18   sorry, it uses one fifth the power

00:37:20   of the equivalent PC GPU.

00:37:22   It's got a 16 core neural engine,

00:37:23   engine which is 60% faster than M1.

00:37:26   And then I didn't understand for a moment

00:37:29   what they were talking about.

00:37:30   They said the media engine adds AV1.

00:37:32   And I was like, man, I've heard of this.

00:37:33   Why do I know this?

00:37:34   And then they continued for YouTube and Netflix

00:37:35   and other things like that.

00:37:36   Oh, okay, that makes sense.

00:37:38   So M3, eight CPU cores for performance for efficiency,

00:37:42   which is the same quantities as the M2.

00:37:45   10 GPU cores or eight if you get the cheaper version,

00:37:48   same as on the M2.

00:37:50   25 billion transistors,

00:37:52   which allegedly is five billion more than the M2.

00:37:56   And eight to 24 gigs RAM, same as the M2.

00:37:58   But, and Marco, future Marco,

00:38:01   feel free to edit in the sad trombone here.

00:38:04   Only one external display, wamp, wamp.

00:38:07   - Yeah, I don't understand that at all.

00:38:08   Like, I mean, it being the same makes sense.

00:38:11   It's the low end one.

00:38:12   I think they think for performance and for efficiency

00:38:14   is a reasonable balance.

00:38:15   It's a small GPU 'cause it's the small, cheap chip.

00:38:18   Where did the extra five billion transistors come from?

00:38:20   Remember that these are not the same GPU cores, right?

00:38:23   They're the new fancy ones with dynamic caching

00:38:26   and the ray tracing stuff and all sorts of things.

00:38:28   So, you know, I'm assuming that's where

00:38:29   a lot of the transistors come from.

00:38:30   And also the CPU cores are not the same either.

00:38:33   They're a little bit better, as you just noted.

00:38:34   Like they're, you know, they're more efficient.

00:38:37   They can do the same work with less power

00:38:39   and they have a higher top end.

00:38:41   When you're in there making your brand new M3 chip

00:38:45   and you've had two generations where people have been annoyed

00:38:48   by the fact that there's only one external display supported,

00:38:51   this would be the time to add it.

00:38:52   Like when the M2 came out, we excused it and said,

00:38:54   well, you know, yeah, one external display,

00:38:56   but maybe they didn't realize that people would be cranky

00:38:58   about it and, you know, the M2 had to be planned.

00:39:00   They didn't have enough time to make this change

00:39:01   for the M2, but maybe in the M3 generation.

00:39:03   And the answer is no, not in the M3 generation.

00:39:06   So maybe Apple thinks this is fine

00:39:07   and that you should just buy a better chip

00:39:10   and not get the plain old M3

00:39:12   if you need more than one external display.

00:39:14   And yeah, there are also workarounds

00:39:15   with all sorts of USB-C things and stuff like that.

00:39:17   It just, it seems like an odd choice.

00:39:19   It seems like it's gotta be driven by, you know,

00:39:23   the size and the power draw and the space and the cost

00:39:26   of supporting more external displays

00:39:28   in the lowest of low-end chips.

00:39:29   And they really want this to be able to extend down low.

00:39:32   Maybe they wanna make sure they can jam it

00:39:35   into a Vision Pro in the future, for example,

00:39:37   like a context where external display support

00:39:40   doesn't make any sense and why would you burn

00:39:42   the chip space and power budget on that?

00:39:45   So I don't know exactly what happened here,

00:39:47   but that is the one disappointing aspect

00:39:50   of the plain old M3.

00:39:51   - I think at this point, you know,

00:39:53   there is some element of a trade-off

00:39:57   of how you spend your limited die space on the CPU die.

00:40:01   There's a whole bunch of stuff that has to go in here.

00:40:03   Display controllers and Thunderbolt controllers

00:40:05   are not small, I mean, they're not massive,

00:40:08   but they do take up space on the die.

00:40:10   And so it's a trade-off.

00:40:11   When you're making this smaller chip made for lower-end,

00:40:14   smaller, cooler-running products,

00:40:16   there's only so much die space you have,

00:40:18   you gotta choose the trade-off for different things.

00:40:20   But I think at this point, three generations later,

00:40:24   this seems a lot more like intentional market segmentation.

00:40:26   And I don't think that's totally unreasonable.

00:40:30   - It's a little bit unreasonable, given the fact

00:40:32   that this is, as we'll say in a little bit,

00:40:34   it's in a MacBook Pro now.

00:40:36   - Yes, but that new MacBook Pro has a few asterisks on it,

00:40:40   which, and we'll get to that in a second,

00:40:41   I'm actually very happy about that product overall,

00:40:43   but at this point, they're very clearly saying,

00:40:46   if you're gonna drive more than one external display,

00:40:49   you're gonna need the Pro or Max chips.

00:40:51   And I don't think that's totally unreasonable.

00:40:55   I do think if you're holding out hope

00:40:57   that maybe the M4 will support two external displays,

00:41:00   I think you can probably stop holding out that hope.

00:41:02   - Well, so here's the thing.

00:41:04   I have heard some rumors that the M3 was originally planned

00:41:08   to support more than one display.

00:41:10   And obviously, that plan changed.

00:41:11   Plans change all the time.

00:41:12   But the fact that it was planned to support more than one

00:41:14   shows that someone thought that maybe the M3 generation

00:41:18   would be the time to reconsider that decision.

00:41:20   But then they reconsidered it back, which makes me think,

00:41:23   that's why I was thinking about the Vision Pro.

00:41:24   Like, in terms of the trade-offs or whatever,

00:41:27   what is their most important product

00:41:29   where it's really important

00:41:32   that the M3 be able to extend low?

00:41:34   I don't think it's the MacBook Air.

00:41:35   I think it's the Vision Pro at this point,

00:41:37   because you really don't,

00:41:38   like the power budget on the Vision Pro is harsh.

00:41:41   It's, even with that external battery back,

00:41:42   two hours of battery life is not great.

00:41:44   That is a great reason to say,

00:41:47   look, we need the M3 to go all the way down

00:41:50   to our face-mounted thing with a tiny battery.

00:41:53   So remember we planned more than one display?

00:41:55   No, that gets cut.

00:41:56   We can't afford the power budget, the space,

00:41:59   anything like that.

00:42:00   So who knows?

00:42:01   I mean, every year we'll keep checking.

00:42:02   But I mean, if they're gonna have a limitation like this,

00:42:05   you're right that the lowest end chip it makes sense on,

00:42:07   but this M3 is being asked to do a lot.

00:42:09   I'm assuming it will eventually be in the Vision Pro

00:42:12   unless they have an all-new chip for that

00:42:13   with a V in the name or something in the future,

00:42:16   which means it has to go all the way from

00:42:18   the head-mounted thing with a tiny battery

00:42:20   all the way up to the lowest end MacBook Pro.

00:42:22   And that is a tough task for this chip.

00:42:26   - Yeah, it's a bummer though.

00:42:27   I concur with what Marco was saying that

00:42:30   it certainly smells to me like market segmentation,

00:42:33   which stinks, like I get it, that's there, right.

00:42:36   But I know there's been a handful of times

00:42:39   that I've been talking to people

00:42:40   about what Mac they should get.

00:42:42   And even if it's a non-technical person,

00:42:46   I always have to ask, well, what are you plugging this into?

00:42:49   Is this getting plugged into HDMI?

00:42:52   'Cause that may make you want a MacBook Pro.

00:42:54   Is this getting plugged into multiple monitors?

00:42:56   Well, then you definitely don't want

00:42:58   like a MacBook Air, for example,

00:42:59   even though from a compute standpoint,

00:43:01   it would have been more than sufficient, et cetera, et cetera.

00:43:03   So that's a little bit of a bummer.

00:43:05   - Yeah, I mean, speaking of those caveats,

00:43:07   thought about this one, we'll get to the line

00:43:10   of the computers in a second,

00:43:11   we're still just talking about the CPUs,

00:43:13   but that's kind of the way, now that,

00:43:15   especially the Apple's laptop line is in such good shape,

00:43:18   the way I'm measuring how well they're doing

00:43:21   is no longer saying like, does the keyboard work?

00:43:23   Does it have a reasonable number of ports?

00:43:24   Is the performance good?

00:43:25   Like that's all good.

00:43:26   - Yeah, the basics are taken care of.

00:43:28   - Yeah, now it's like, is there anything

00:43:30   I need to warn people about, to Casey's point?

00:43:32   Like, you know, 'cause we feel so great about these computers

00:43:35   like if you get one, you're getting a great computer,

00:43:37   don't worry about it.

00:43:38   Like we said the same thing about the M2s,

00:43:39   we said, you know, the MacBook Pros

00:43:42   were not in desperate need of an update.

00:43:43   We love that they got updated,

00:43:44   but they weren't desperate need of it

00:43:45   because the M2 ones were already great.

00:43:47   But this, the whole like, oh, wait, wait, wait,

00:43:50   are you gonna use external displays?

00:43:51   And like I said, you can use more than one external display

00:43:54   through various USB-C shenanigans

00:43:55   that we've talked about on past shows.

00:43:56   It's just a complication that if someone is asking you

00:43:59   about what computer to buy, you should ask them about it.

00:44:02   Oh, do you plan on using two external displays?

00:44:06   How are they connected or whatever?

00:44:07   And the second thing is the whole one SSD chip versus two

00:44:12   that has the speed of your SSD.

00:44:14   I don't yet know if they're still doing that

00:44:16   in this generation, but I would assume they are.

00:44:19   So that's also a bummer.

00:44:20   And that's the list of like,

00:44:22   on this amazing line of computers we all think are great,

00:44:25   the two things we need to ask people is

00:44:26   if you're getting M3, do you have more than one display?

00:44:28   And if you're planning on buying any of these,

00:44:31   if you're buying one of the models

00:44:32   that has the single chip SSD,

00:44:35   that's worth at least having a conversation about.

00:44:36   It doesn't mean you shouldn't buy it and it's terrible,

00:44:38   like maybe you don't care, but it's not like 1% slower.

00:44:42   It's like half the speed.

00:44:43   So it's worth discussing.

00:44:45   - Indeed.

00:44:46   So let's talk about what you would do

00:44:47   if you were to go the next step up.

00:44:49   Let's talk M3 Pro.

00:44:51   So the M3 Pro has 12 CPU cores.

00:44:53   That's four more than the M3.

00:44:56   That's six and six, so two and two more than the M3.

00:45:00   18 GPU cores, which is eight more than the vanilla M3.

00:45:05   It's also 14 on the cheaper version,

00:45:09   but both are one fewer than the M2 Pro,

00:45:12   which was 19 and 16, which is a little bit different.

00:45:15   So, or I guess it's one fewer and two fewer

00:45:18   than the M2 Pro.

00:45:19   Nonetheless, 40% faster than the M1 Pro.

00:45:23   It's 37 billion transistors,

00:45:26   three billion fewer than the M2 Pro,

00:45:29   which had an even 40 billion,

00:45:30   which had eight perf cores, four efficiency cores,

00:45:33   and up to 19 GPU cores.

00:45:35   Max RAM, 36 gigs, up from 32 on the M2 Pro.

00:45:39   - This is a weird chip.

00:45:41   Why does it have six efficiency cores?

00:45:43   None of the other M series chips, M3 series chips,

00:45:47   have six efficiency cores.

00:45:48   The little one has what, four?

00:45:50   - Four. - And the big one,

00:45:51   the max, has four.

00:45:53   The M3 Pro has six.

00:45:55   And again, fewer transistors than its predecessor.

00:45:59   Part of that fewer transistors is probably due to the fact

00:46:02   that it has fewer power cores, right?

00:46:05   And then more efficiency cores.

00:46:07   I would have thought that with this arrangement

00:46:10   that Apple would have made, you know, had an explanation.

00:46:12   Here's why we did it this way.

00:46:14   'Cause I can think of reasons, like, you know,

00:46:15   the efficiency cores, they emphasize,

00:46:17   the efficiency cores keep getting better and better.

00:46:18   If you're thinking of these as crappy little cores,

00:46:21   they're not.

00:46:21   Like, every year, the efficiency cores

00:46:23   get better and better.

00:46:25   They haven't done the comparison yet,

00:46:26   but I imagine there's gonna be a point

00:46:27   where the efficiency cores are more powerful

00:46:28   than the power cores in some past M line chip.

00:46:31   So maybe having six efficiency cores and six performance cores

00:46:34   is a better trade-off for this middle thing,

00:46:37   you know what I mean?

00:46:37   'Cause you get more parallelism,

00:46:39   'cause now you've got 12 cores.

00:46:41   I don't know, Apple didn't give an explanation,

00:46:43   but it is notable.

00:46:44   And it's also notable when we get to the max,

00:46:46   is that, I meant to look this up,

00:46:48   'cause my memory's getting so bad,

00:46:49   but in the earlier M lines, wasn't the fact

00:46:52   that the Pro was basically just the max

00:46:54   with GPU cores cut off?

00:46:55   Which generations did that?

00:46:56   Was it just the M1, or was it M1 and M2?

00:46:59   - I think it was both.

00:47:00   And that's what's interesting here,

00:47:01   is the M3 Pro and the M3 Max

00:47:05   are basically nothing alike from their die design.

00:47:09   It's totally different.

00:47:10   - Yeah, one is not the other with things cut off.

00:47:13   They're separate chips.

00:47:15   - If anything, the M3 Pro looks a lot more like the M3

00:47:19   than the M3 Max.

00:47:21   It's closer to that.

00:47:22   - Yeah, and the uniformity in that it's got

00:47:24   four performance, four efficiency, M3,

00:47:26   and six and six on the M3 Pro,

00:47:28   so there's a symmetry there.

00:47:30   I'll have to look at the die shot

00:47:31   to see if there's any family resemblance.

00:47:33   But this, again, I like this.

00:47:35   I understood, oh, isn't it cool

00:47:38   they can just sell the Pro and the Max

00:47:40   and they just chop off the cores or whatever?

00:47:41   But I like three separate chips,

00:47:43   where they say we've got our low on one

00:47:45   that has to do these jobs,

00:47:46   we've got the middle one that most people will buy,

00:47:47   and we've got the big one.

00:47:49   And I encourage Apple to do exactly this,

00:47:52   which is make a separate chip for all three of those.

00:47:54   We're not asking a lot.

00:47:55   Obviously, you share cores and stuff like that.

00:47:58   And it seems that they've done that.

00:47:59   My only question is, why is six and six

00:48:00   the right choice for this middle one?

00:48:03   Again, we'll find out in the benchmarks.

00:48:04   Maybe it shows, oh, this is a great trade-off

00:48:05   because it's the one most people buy,

00:48:08   and it has better battery life, for example,

00:48:11   because it has more efficiency cores.

00:48:13   And the efficiency cores are more powerful now,

00:48:14   and you rarely use the performance.

00:48:16   Whatever the explanation is,

00:48:17   I'm willing to believe that this is a good arrangement,

00:48:19   but I love the fact that it is its own chip now.

00:48:22   - I think when you look at the relative sizes

00:48:26   and capabilities of these chips now,

00:48:29   again, the M3 Pro is a lot closer to the M3

00:48:32   than it is to the M3 Max.

00:48:33   I think what we might see now is more products

00:48:37   being offered with M3 and M3 Pro options.

00:48:41   So for instance, the next generation of Mac Mini,

00:48:43   if it gets this, then maybe you'll see that.

00:48:46   Maybe, again, maybe you'll see the M3 Pro appear

00:48:48   in the next 15-inch MacBook Air as an option.

00:48:52   - Yeah, that'd be cool.

00:48:52   - Because it's really not that much bigger than the M3.

00:48:55   And again, many of the capabilities look like they scaled up

00:48:59   the M3 for the M3 Pro, and then the M3 Max

00:49:01   is this totally different design.

00:49:03   We might start seeing these lines get shifted around

00:49:05   as to what products get which of these chip options.

00:49:08   The M3 Pro sure looks like it was designed

00:49:11   to be in more products than the M1 and M2 Pros were.

00:49:14   - Yeah, and like I said, I think it does seem like,

00:49:17   on paper, a good middle chip.

00:49:20   Because I think it is differentiated enough from the M3,

00:49:24   if only from supporting more than one display.

00:49:26   But 12 cores versus eight is a big difference.

00:49:29   But it is not a giant monster chip like the Max.

00:49:32   And I really do think this is the one

00:49:34   that most people will buy, because the M3

00:49:37   is clearly the bottom of the bottom line,

00:49:39   and it has a bunch of compromises or whatever.

00:49:41   And the M3 Max is really expensive and big.

00:49:43   So if you're getting a MacBook Pro,

00:49:45   when I say most people, I mean most people

00:49:46   who are buying MacBook Pros.

00:49:47   When you're getting a MacBook Pro, I think people will,

00:49:49   just from price anchoring, grab towards the middle option,

00:49:52   and this is the middle option.

00:49:53   I hope it is good, I hope this middle option is good.

00:49:54   We'll see, again, we'll see when people

00:49:56   start benchmarking this and checking at the thermals

00:49:58   and all this stuff like that.

00:49:59   I hope this is a good compromise,

00:50:00   but I like the fact that it is its own thing.

00:50:03   And also, the Max RAM being 36.

00:50:07   We'll get to RAM in a little bit

00:50:08   when we talk about the Max chip.

00:50:10   But some weird amounts here, for reasons that,

00:50:13   again, we'll explain, but instead of 1632, you've got 1836.

00:50:18   - Right, 'cause there are multiples of three,

00:50:20   'cause there's three sets of memory controllers.

00:50:22   - Yeah, yeah, but anyway, that's two more in each measure.

00:50:26   I like that, we so rarely get this.

00:50:28   It's always like, oh, well, you can only go up by doubling.

00:50:30   It's either gonna be 16, 32, 64, and it's like,

00:50:32   well, this year, on this machine,

00:50:36   we're not moving up from 16 to 32,

00:50:38   so you're just gonna be stuck on 16

00:50:39   until you get enough activation energy to make the leap to 32.

00:50:43   I love going from 32 to 36, that's great.

00:50:45   (laughing)

00:50:46   I like the idea of buying a newer computer

00:50:49   and it having more stuff than the previous one,

00:50:51   even if it's not double.

00:50:52   So I know, again, there's reasons for that

00:50:54   in terms of the memory chips or whatever,

00:50:56   but I give that a thumbs up even if it was just an accident.

00:50:59   - All right, and then let's talk about the M3 Max, baby.

00:51:03   16 cores, 12 performance, which is four more

00:51:07   than the M2 Max, and four efficiency.

00:51:09   So fewer efficiency cores than the M3 Pro,

00:51:12   but obviously more performance cores.

00:51:15   40 GPU cores as compared to 18, or 30 instead of 14

00:51:20   for the cheaper one.

00:51:22   So the M2 Max was 38 and 30, now we're 40 and 30.

00:51:27   Up to 128 gigabytes of RAM, the previous limit was 96.

00:51:32   And here's where the computer initially got sold

00:51:37   to one Casey Liss, up to 80% faster than the M1 Max.

00:51:42   My goodness, 92 billion transistors,

00:51:45   25 billion more than the M2 Max,

00:51:47   which is 67 billion. - That's a lot.

00:51:49   That is a lot of Bs, a lot of Bs.

00:51:51   - That's a big increase year over year.

00:51:54   This Max is not just like an incremental increase

00:51:58   over the previous one, it is,

00:52:00   like this is separating itself from the rest of the line.

00:52:02   Like four more performance cores,

00:52:04   25 billion more transistors.

00:52:06   The GPU cores, even though there's only two more of them,

00:52:08   again, they're different GPU cores.

00:52:10   128 gigs of RAM is great because if you squint at it,

00:52:13   you can say the Ultra's gonna have 256 as the Max,

00:52:16   which is, you know, wonderful.

00:52:18   I think the minimum RAM is 36.

00:52:21   I mean, I guess now is the time to jump

00:52:22   into the RAM things for the Max because there's,

00:52:25   well, we'll do the RAM things for all the things in a second.

00:52:28   But yeah, let's just talk about the Max.

00:52:30   I heartily approve of this chip.

00:52:33   If it is not a giant power and heap destroying monster,

00:52:36   which I suspect it is not, boy, this is great.

00:52:39   And this really does make people

00:52:41   with M1s and M2s look twice, I think.

00:52:44   - Oh yeah, that's what got me too.

00:52:46   (laughs)

00:52:47   - We'll get to that, but yeah.

00:52:49   This is-- - It's incredibly impressive.

00:52:50   - Yeah, especially to go,

00:52:53   you know, they had a process shrink here

00:52:55   from five nanometers to three,

00:52:57   and so you would expect that you're able

00:52:59   to cram in more stuff with the same general size

00:53:03   class of chip.

00:53:04   And to go from eight performance cores to 12,

00:53:08   that's a huge increase.

00:53:10   That's amazing.

00:53:11   50% more performance cores,

00:53:13   and to have each of the cores be more powerful

00:53:16   than the previous ones by something like 15%,

00:53:20   that's really good.

00:53:21   That's a nice, you know,

00:53:23   when we sit around as nerds and we watch the process sizes

00:53:27   from the fabs and we're like, oh man,

00:53:29   we can't wait until the next process shrink

00:53:31   'cause it'll be a big jump.

00:53:32   And in this case, I think it was.

00:53:35   I think this shows you that this was a big jump.

00:53:37   This was worth, like if you had M1

00:53:40   or if you didn't even get that,

00:53:41   and if you kind of skipped M2,

00:53:43   'cause you're like, well, M3 might be a process shrink.

00:53:46   This is the kind of jump you were waiting for.

00:53:49   And that's fantastic.

00:53:51   - Well, they didn't give the size of the die in millimeters,

00:53:54   did they though?

00:53:55   'Cause that's the question.

00:53:56   Have they just simply made a bigger chip,

00:53:58   which again, I still approve of,

00:53:59   but I'm not ready to put a Laurel wreath

00:54:04   around the three nanometer process quite yet.

00:54:06   'Cause if they just simply made the thing bigger

00:54:09   and the density is similar as the five nanometer process,

00:54:11   that's not impressive.

00:54:12   And again, we have to see the power draw figures.

00:54:14   I endorse adding more power.

00:54:17   I'm not entirely sure how much of that more power we got,

00:54:21   not for free, but we got as a benefit

00:54:24   of the new three nanometer process.

00:54:26   - I think time will tell and benchmarks will tell

00:54:28   and real life use will tell.

00:54:29   But you can, they did give you some idea

00:54:32   in the presentation with their mostly label-free graphs.

00:54:35   It appears that the M3 line of chips

00:54:39   will push higher at peak power than the previous ones.

00:54:43   It's a similar move that the M2 did compared to the M1.

00:54:45   It is able to peak higher, but they also claim,

00:54:49   it does seem like it's going to be more efficient

00:54:51   in the same way that the M2 is technically more efficient

00:54:53   than the M1, even though it peaks higher.

00:54:55   But also, they claim longer battery life

00:54:58   on the 16-inch now.

00:55:00   So the 16-inch max versus max,

00:55:01   they're basically claiming one additional hour

00:55:03   of battery life compared to the previous ones.

00:55:05   - Yeah, I would think that the battery life claims,

00:55:07   we'll get to them when we get to the machines,

00:55:08   but I would think a lot of them have to do with the fact

00:55:11   that pretty much all of Apple's battery tests

00:55:14   are not like, let's max everything out.

00:55:16   - Oh, not even close.

00:55:17   - Because the efficiency cores are more efficient and better

00:55:21   and because overall efficiency is better,

00:55:23   I would imagine that yeah, the battery life is gonna go up

00:55:25   because you're mostly hanging out on the efficiency cores

00:55:28   and they're better, but we never see the,

00:55:31   okay, what's the everything maxed out battery life?

00:55:34   And I would imagine as we go from M1 to M2 to M3,

00:55:36   the everything maxed out battery life is going to decrease,

00:55:39   even though the work you accomplish

00:55:41   while burning your entire battery should be increasing.

00:55:44   - That seems likely, I think that's right.

00:55:47   But when you compare, from my position as an M1 owner--

00:55:51   - Who keeps his laptop plugged in.

00:55:53   - Yes, well, I do bring it when I travel somewhere.

00:55:56   I've always thought the M1 Pro and Max

00:55:59   didn't have enough E-cores, the efficiency cores.

00:56:01   We only have two E-cores and then we have eight

00:56:04   Pro Core, performance cores.

00:56:06   And when you look at modern Mac OS,

00:56:09   certain background type of tasks,

00:56:11   things like indexing and stuff,

00:56:13   only ever take place on the efficiency cores.

00:56:16   That's the way the OS schedules them.

00:56:17   And so when I look and I see my iStat menu's menu graph

00:56:20   in my menu bar here, those first two cores

00:56:23   are almost always well above 50% use.

00:56:26   Sometimes they're peaked at 100% both for a while,

00:56:29   if it's like indexing something or whatever.

00:56:31   But the efficiency cores get well used on modern Mac OS.

00:56:36   And so to go from two in the M1 line

00:56:38   to four in the M2 line, that's a nice jump.

00:56:41   And that's the kind of thing,

00:56:44   when you're looking at overall battery life usage,

00:56:46   my understanding, what I've heard from people

00:56:48   who know more than I do about this,

00:56:49   is that maxing out the efficiency cores

00:56:52   is basically free in terms of power budget

00:56:55   and battery life.

00:56:56   You really don't notice them.

00:56:58   They're that efficient, they're that low powered

00:57:00   that you can basically max them out

00:57:01   and not really worry about it.

00:57:03   And so all of this adds up to this overall

00:57:05   battery life picture of these chips,

00:57:07   where yes, you're right, that if you actually do

00:57:11   push them hard, of course they're not gonna get

00:57:13   22 hours of battery life.

00:57:15   That's your movie watching kind of battery life.

00:57:18   But as time goes on, more and more tasks

00:57:22   that you actually do are running on those efficiency cores.

00:57:26   Or a larger portion of what is happening

00:57:28   is running on the efficiency cores.

00:57:29   And as the performance cores get better,

00:57:32   they do finish their work in less time.

00:57:34   So I think there is a lot of merit to the fact

00:57:37   that yes, these actually are getting probably

00:57:39   slightly better or the same battery life

00:57:42   as the predecessors, even though the chip

00:57:44   might be running bigger or hotter or whatever.

00:57:46   - Related to the M3 Max, obviously there's no

00:57:49   ultra announcement today, because the Max Studio

00:57:51   was just updated, and it's probably not ready.

00:57:54   Looking at the Max, it's tempting.

00:57:56   I'm excited about the Max, 'cause it's a great chip

00:57:59   for the laptops, it's more powerful.

00:58:00   Love to see the separation from the middle tier,

00:58:02   love to see going harder on the high end.

00:58:05   - And you love laptops.

00:58:06   - Yeah, if they do the Ultra as two M3 Maxes,

00:58:10   that means the Ultra will be that much more powerful.

00:58:12   Again, 256 gigs maximum RAM, all this GPU,

00:58:15   so many cores, looks great.

00:58:17   I gotta find a link to this in the show notes,

00:58:19   but I watched a video recently of Johnny Ceruggi

00:58:22   giving a talk at his old university.

00:58:24   I'm not sure how recent it was, but anyway.

00:58:26   Obviously he's not gonna say anything about anything.

00:58:30   But if you watch these Apple executives

00:58:32   during presentations, they're very careful.

00:58:35   But usually you can glean something from them.

00:58:38   And of all the questions about what is Apple gonna do

00:58:41   about X or what do you have planned for Y or whatever,

00:58:43   he was willing to say one thing, kind of in the way,

00:58:47   the same reason we all knew that Apple's gonna make a phone.

00:58:49   Once Steve Jobs started saying the phone

00:58:52   is very interesting or whatever,

00:58:54   it's kind of like, I don't know if y'all are using

00:58:55   Tim Cook phrase, but Tim Cook would talk about AR/VR

00:58:57   in the same way, sort of an open secret.

00:58:59   You haven't said Apple is gonna do anything.

00:59:01   Once executives say an area is interesting in some way,

00:59:06   you listen.

00:59:07   So what he said about future silicon stuff or whatever,

00:59:10   'cause obviously that's his business,

00:59:11   his part of the business,

00:59:13   was that he thought that packaging,

00:59:16   I'm not using the right phrase,

00:59:17   but packaging was an area of interest.

00:59:18   Packaging for the future might be an interesting area

00:59:21   of innovation or something to that effect.

00:59:22   And by packaging, I mean you take the silicon chips

00:59:25   that you get from the wafer and you stick them

00:59:28   inside a container with all of the other stuff

00:59:30   that they need and in the Apple's case,

00:59:33   you put the RAM chips in there and everything.

00:59:34   You make a little package out of it.

00:59:35   That's your SOC.

00:59:36   He said that packaging might be interesting.

00:59:42   I'm not sure if the silicon interposer between the Maxes

00:59:45   that makes the Ultra counts as packaging

00:59:48   because I'm not entirely clear on, you know,

00:59:50   does that nomenclature apply to the silicon interposer?

00:59:53   Is that actually part of fabbing?

00:59:54   Like what do you consider that?

00:59:55   But we do know, and we've talked in the past,

00:59:57   that many other chip manufacturers have used

00:59:59   various packaging innovations to put more stuff

01:00:03   in a single package.

01:00:04   The chiplets things, the various,

01:00:06   we've talked about this in the past episode years ago,

01:00:07   like the various words for the different technologies

01:00:10   of arranging a bunch of different chips

01:00:12   inside a single package and how you connect them

01:00:14   to each other and what the cost trade-offs are

01:00:16   and what the efficiency trade-offs and all of that.

01:00:19   And because I'm desperate to hear good news

01:00:20   about Desktop Max, I heard him say that

01:00:23   and saw this monster M3 Max and thought,

01:00:25   maybe in the M3 generation or the M4 generation,

01:00:28   'cause the timelines of these are so long,

01:00:30   they won't do the end-to-end Maxes as an Ultra

01:00:34   with the interposer.

01:00:35   Maybe they've come up with a new way to package

01:00:39   multiple units of stuff that they've made

01:00:42   inside a larger chip that would allow them to,

01:00:45   here it comes, put four of them in.

01:00:48   (laughing)

01:00:49   I would love that.

01:00:51   I'm basing that on nothing other than the fact

01:00:53   that Johnny Serugio said the word packaging

01:00:55   in a talk that he gave where he otherwise

01:00:57   revealed nothing about Apple's future plans.

01:01:00   But when I look at this M3 Max, at least I think,

01:01:04   okay, if you make an Ultra out of this,

01:01:05   it will be a good Ultra, good thumbs up.

01:01:08   By Ultra, I mean you put the two Maxes together.

01:01:10   But if this really is a generation

01:01:12   where there'll be packaging changes,

01:01:13   and based on the fact that the M3 Pro is its own thing

01:01:17   and not its own thing, but I guess it is more differentiated

01:01:21   from the Max than it used to be.

01:01:23   To Marco's point, it's less differentiated

01:01:24   from the plain M3 than it used to be, maybe,

01:01:27   but it's more differentiated from the Max.

01:01:28   So maybe Apple is putting some separation

01:01:32   between the middle and the upper upper high end.

01:01:36   So stay tuned to see if there are any packaging innovations

01:01:39   that happen when we finally go beyond M3 Max,

01:01:42   or if this is just another Ultra interposer year.

01:01:45   - Did you wanna talk memory stuff now,

01:01:48   or do you wanna save that for later?

01:01:49   - Yeah, let's talk about RAM, because it is actually,

01:01:51   people have questions about the RAM of the machines,

01:01:53   and we'll talk about the machines in a moment.

01:01:55   But in the end, the SOC, the M3, M3 Pro, M3 Max,

01:02:00   dictates a lot about the memory configurations

01:02:03   of the computers Apple sells.

01:02:04   So here, this is from Cameron McKay,

01:02:07   another inserted follow-up in an event episode.

01:02:09   He says-- - Unprecedented.

01:02:10   - Yes, "I'm not a chip designer,

01:02:12   "but I work in a related field.

01:02:13   "Here's how I make sense of the strange RAM configurations

01:02:16   "on the M3 series.

01:02:17   "This is based on looking at the memory controller blocks

01:02:19   "around the perimeter of the M3 series die shots

01:02:21   "and Apple's tech specs."

01:02:23   And Apple does put, like in their presentation,

01:02:26   they put what we assume are real die shots,

01:02:29   where you can actually see the silicon chip,

01:02:32   photoshopped a little bit, it's beautified,

01:02:34   as it would be in the wafer,

01:02:36   where you can see the different functional blocks

01:02:38   by how the little transistors are arranged.

01:02:41   Cameron continues, "The M3, two RAM chips

01:02:45   "with 100 gigabytes per second of memory bandwidth,

01:02:47   "and you can divide up those two RAM chips this way.

01:02:49   "If you've got two four-gigabyte chips,

01:02:51   "that's an eight gigabytes of RAM.

01:02:52   "If you've got two eights, that's 16 gigs,

01:02:54   "and two twelves, that's 24."

01:02:56   So that explains the memory configurations

01:02:58   of the plain old M3.

01:02:59   You can get eight, 16, and 24.

01:03:01   We'll talk about the eight later

01:03:02   when we talk about machines.

01:03:03   But anyway, there's only two of them,

01:03:04   and those are the sizes they come in,

01:03:07   and that's what you get.

01:03:08   M3 Pro, three RAM chips,

01:03:11   150 gigabytes per second memory bandwidth,

01:03:13   because there's three memory controllers,

01:03:16   50 gigabytes per second each.

01:03:18   If they're six-gigabyte chips,

01:03:21   that three times six is a total of 18,

01:03:22   and if they're 12-gigabyte chips,

01:03:24   three times 12 is 36.

01:03:25   That's where you get 18 and 36 from.

01:03:27   That's where we got our little bonus.

01:03:28   Instead of 16 and 32, we get 18 and 36.

01:03:30   It's because it's three times six, so three times 12.

01:03:33   The M3 Max with the 14-core CPU has three RAM chips,

01:03:38   300 gigabytes per second of memory bandwidth,

01:03:40   and it's either three times 12 for 36

01:03:41   or three times 32 for 96.

01:03:44   And then finally, the M3 Max with the 16-core CPU

01:03:48   has four RAM chips, one more than the 14-core one does.

01:03:52   So it's 400 gigabytes per second memory bandwidth,

01:03:54   and you get four times 12, which is 48,

01:03:56   four times 16, which is 64,

01:03:58   and four times 32, which is 128.

01:04:00   Camera continues, "The M3 Max is a bit odd.

01:04:03   "The memory controller blocks in the die shot

01:04:05   "are twice as big as on the other M3 series chips.

01:04:07   "I assume that means twice the bandwidth

01:04:09   "to each memory chip.

01:04:10   "Maybe the memory chip packages

01:04:11   "each contain two memory dies?

01:04:13   "Apple says memory bandwidth

01:04:14   "is up to 400 gigabytes per second.

01:04:15   "I'm assuming this means that the top-end M3 Max

01:04:17   "is 400 gigabytes per second,

01:04:19   "and the lower 14-core version is 300 megabytes per second.

01:04:22   "The available RAM configurations

01:04:23   "support this interpretation.

01:04:25   "It makes sense that Apple would disable

01:04:26   "one memory controller in the lower-end M3 Max.

01:04:28   "Look how much die area those memory controllers take up."

01:04:31   So this is another example of Apple

01:04:34   really pushing the top end,

01:04:36   like to the point where the big Max

01:04:38   is better in a substantial way than the not-so-big Max,

01:04:41   because the big Max has four RAM chips,

01:04:44   400 gigabytes per second memory, four controllers.

01:04:47   But if you just saw the right-hand side

01:04:50   of this little thing, it says,

01:04:51   so the configurations are 36 and 96 for this Max,

01:04:55   but 48, 64, and 128 for this one, what the hell?

01:04:59   This is why.

01:04:59   It's how many RAM chips and what size they come in,

01:05:02   and that ends up bifurcating,

01:05:06   especially the computers that come with the M3 Max,

01:05:08   into these weird RAM tiers that don't make any sense

01:05:11   when you're using a configurator.

01:05:12   In fact, Apple has a little message I feel for them,

01:05:14   'cause I was making similar messages

01:05:15   on our membership thing,

01:05:16   of like when you click a different CPU,

01:05:19   it changes the RAM for you because it has to,

01:05:22   and then it pops up a little apology message,

01:05:23   and it's like, "Sorry, based on the CPU you picked,

01:05:26   "we've changed you to 48 gigs of RAM,"

01:05:28   which is a number you're probably not used to seeing,

01:05:29   but it makes sense if you look at the chips on the SoC.

01:05:33   - Yeah, and in fact, user F. Hausler,

01:05:36   earlier in the recording, posted a mastodon,

01:05:39   an annotated diagram of the chip dies

01:05:42   to F's best guesses of what these different sections are.

01:05:46   And it looks right to me, or at least plausible,

01:05:48   or at least I'm sure most of it's probably right.

01:05:51   So it's helpful to look at this to see

01:05:53   how these chip designs differ,

01:05:55   what they're using their die space for,

01:05:58   kind of the trade-offs that they make, so it's interesting.

01:06:02   (upbeat music)

01:06:03   We are sponsored this week by Collide.

01:06:05   If you work in security or IT,

01:06:07   and your company has Okta, this message is for you.

01:06:10   Have you noticed that for the past few years,

01:06:12   the majority of data breaches and hacks you read about

01:06:14   have something in common?

01:06:16   It's employees.

01:06:17   Hackers absolutely love exploiting

01:06:19   vulnerable employee devices and credentials,

01:06:22   but it doesn't have to be this way.

01:06:24   Imagine a world where only secure devices

01:06:27   can access your cloud apps.

01:06:29   In this world, phished credentials are useless to hackers,

01:06:32   and you can manage every OS, even Linux,

01:06:35   from a single dashboard.

01:06:37   Best of all, you can get employees

01:06:38   to fix their own device security issues

01:06:40   without creating more work for IT.

01:06:43   The good news is, you don't have to imagine this world.

01:06:46   You can just start using Collide.

01:06:48   Collide is a device trust solution for companies with Okta,

01:06:52   and it ensures that if a device isn't trusted and secure,

01:06:54   it can't log into your cloud apps.

01:06:56   Visit collide.com/ATP to watch a demo and see how it works.

01:07:01   That's Collide, spelled K-O-L-I-D-E, .com/ATP.

01:07:06   Collide.com/ATP.

01:07:09   See a demo today.

01:07:11   Thank you so much to Collide for sponsoring our show.

01:07:14   - We have to talk about the MacBook Pro.

01:07:20   It appears to be the same with some asterisks

01:07:25   and daggers and double daggers.

01:07:26   So there is no more 13-inch touch bar MacBook Pro.

01:07:31   Ding dong, the witch is dead.

01:07:34   - Thank goodness.

01:07:36   We've been talking for a while.

01:07:40   One of the most scary things we've ever heard from Apple

01:07:43   wasn't in their scary fast event.

01:07:44   It was, I believe, last WWDC when they said that

01:07:49   that was their second best-selling laptop.

01:07:51   Remember that?

01:07:53   And everyone was like, oh God, really?

01:07:57   That's, and it makes sense.

01:07:59   As we talked about before, there's a lot of individuals

01:08:02   who go into an Apple store saying,

01:08:03   I want something called a MacBook Pro,

01:08:05   and that's the cheapest one by a lot,

01:08:06   and so they pick that.

01:08:07   Also a lot of corporate and volume buyers,

01:08:09   they say, oh yeah, we'll give our employees a MacBook Pro,

01:08:11   and then they buy them that one,

01:08:13   'cause again, it's the cheapest laptop

01:08:16   that's named MacBook Pro in the lineup.

01:08:18   And so a lot of sales of that were basically people buying it

01:08:22   because it was the cheapest thing called Pro,

01:08:24   not because it was necessarily the one they liked the most.

01:08:27   And so it seemed kind of a tragedy to us nerds

01:08:30   that all of the modern conveniences

01:08:33   of the actual new MacBook Pros and even the MacBook Airs

01:08:38   were not applying to this product,

01:08:41   and yet they kept selling so many.

01:08:43   So it seemed like one of those kind of tragedies

01:08:47   in the lineup, similar to the old non-retina iMac

01:08:50   with the spinning hard drive.

01:08:51   They're like, man, when are they gonna get rid of this thing?

01:08:53   They got rid of this thing.

01:08:55   - Yeah, and there's an explanation for this,

01:08:57   which is not very satisfying, but I've come to believe,

01:09:01   we joke about it all the time,

01:09:01   and I've come to believe it more and more.

01:09:02   In fact, I think I said in Slack earlier today,

01:09:05   this is the real Tim Cook doctrine,

01:09:07   or the real Cook doctrine, which is not own and control

01:09:09   the primary technologies behind your products or whatever.

01:09:12   It's actually keep selling old products

01:09:14   that you already manufacture to maintain margins

01:09:16   on your product line, because we've heard

01:09:18   from actual sources inside the company

01:09:20   that it's not just a thing we think on the outside,

01:09:23   but that decisions are actually made inside Apple

01:09:26   based on the overall margins of the product line.

01:09:29   So why has this laptop been around

01:09:31   for so long with the touch bar or whatever?

01:09:32   Why didn't it get the M2?

01:09:34   Why do we have to wait until the M3?

01:09:36   It's not because the people making these computers

01:09:38   don't know how to make good computers,

01:09:40   or are trying to stick it to you or whatever.

01:09:42   The straightforward thing to do would be,

01:09:45   okay, well the touch bars are going away,

01:09:46   so let's upgrade everybody to non-touch bar.

01:09:49   I bet the people who control these product lines,

01:09:54   that's their first plan.

01:09:55   Like, yeah, all right, well, we've decided

01:09:57   we're leaving behind touch bar, we got this new design,

01:09:58   let's just do it.

01:10:00   And apparently, inside the company,

01:10:02   there is actual pushback from people

01:10:04   who care about the numbers saying,

01:10:07   if you did that, the overall margins

01:10:09   on the Apple laptop product line,

01:10:11   or the MacBook Pro product line,

01:10:13   would be unacceptably low.

01:10:15   So you have to keep selling the touch bar one

01:10:17   for another year to maintain our margins.

01:10:22   We don't wanna hear that on the outside,

01:10:23   but that's just the fact of running a company sometimes.

01:10:26   You know, again, maybe that's not the way

01:10:28   we think it should be run, but we see from the outside

01:10:31   that that is how it happens, and apparently,

01:10:34   it's not just an accident, or like,

01:10:36   they're not thinking about it, or like,

01:10:38   whoopsie, they forgot to update that one.

01:10:40   It's someone inside Apple saying,

01:10:43   you gotta keep selling the crappy one for another year.

01:10:45   And this is the type of thing where it's like,

01:10:47   I know Apple's big thing is we make long-term decisions,

01:10:50   not short-term ones, but I do feel like

01:10:53   that type of decision, it doesn't,

01:10:56   it hurts Apple's reputation as a company

01:10:59   a tiny, tiny, tiny bit.

01:11:02   Because if you buy one of these not knowing

01:11:06   the weird limitations and the fact that the features

01:11:09   have been updated on the other laptops

01:11:11   and you might be happier with them,

01:11:13   maybe you're slightly less satisfied,

01:11:15   or maybe even if you just listen to a tech podcast

01:11:17   and everyone is saying that's the bad one

01:11:18   and you bought the bad one, you feel bad about it

01:11:20   or whatever, that type of situation,

01:11:22   it's not a big deal, it was still an okay computer,

01:11:24   it's fine, right, but the fact that they sold so many of them

01:11:27   they're not selling their best work.

01:11:29   They know they can do better.

01:11:31   They have done better, but they're still selling

01:11:33   this lesser computer that is less satisfying to customers

01:11:36   and less useful overall.

01:11:37   To maintain the margins on the product line

01:11:40   of the MacBook Pro, that is not long-term

01:11:44   brand-preserving thinking in my opinion.

01:11:46   Maybe it is the right decision if you care

01:11:50   about the long-term financial health of the company,

01:11:52   but as a tech nerd, I care less about that to the degree,

01:11:57   as long as they're not going out of business

01:11:58   and they're doing well, I don't care about

01:12:00   the tiny percentages, I don't have a bunch of Apple RSUs

01:12:03   that are investing or something, I'm not investing.

01:12:04   And honestly, I don't think Tim Cook cares.

01:12:07   He's a bazillionaire, he doesn't need any more money,

01:12:08   but I feel like Tim Cook, the real Tim Cook doctrine is

01:12:12   don't let margins fall, do what's right

01:12:15   for the company financially.

01:12:16   Not because he's greedy and wants money, he doesn't care,

01:12:19   but I think as a CEO of a company,

01:12:21   as a person whose expertise was in operations or whatever,

01:12:25   I think he sees that as his responsibility

01:12:28   to make sure the company does well financially

01:12:31   in addition to all the other things.

01:12:32   And he's really good at that.

01:12:35   And so he does things to pursue that goal

01:12:38   that I personally think are the wrong decisions

01:12:40   for the Apple brand in the long-term,

01:12:43   even if they're the right decisions

01:12:44   for the Apple stock price in the long-term.

01:12:47   - Yeah, I don't think it's as ruinous to the brand

01:12:50   as you seem to think so.

01:12:51   - I said a tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny bit,

01:12:55   but non-zero, measurable, real.

01:12:57   - Yeah, it's not ruinous so much as corrosive.

01:12:59   - Yeah, you know, that's a better word for it.

01:13:01   - And not even corrosive, it's just like,

01:13:02   it's a less optimal decision.

01:13:04   If your decision was I want our customers to be the happiest,

01:13:06   you wouldn't keep selling that computer for a year, right?

01:13:09   I don't think it's a big deal, but it is a thing.

01:13:12   It is a trade-off.

01:13:13   - Well, if they wanted their customers to be happiest,

01:13:14   they wouldn't have anything that starts

01:13:16   with 256 gigs of disk space either.

01:13:18   - Oh yeah, we'll get there.

01:13:19   (laughing)

01:13:20   - All right, so moving right along.

01:13:21   So no more touch bar, the touch bar is dead.

01:13:24   - Oh, thank God.

01:13:25   - But what was the other, the dagger, if you will,

01:13:29   on that laptop?

01:13:30   It only has two non-Thunderbolt ports.

01:13:33   - Yes.

01:13:34   - Non-Thunderbolt for USB-C ports, right?

01:13:36   - Yes, so this new kind of lower end 14 inch

01:13:40   is basically a replacement for that touch bar Mac

01:13:44   price-wise, sort of.

01:13:45   It kind of replaces the high end of the price.

01:13:48   Starts at 1600 bucks, the outgoing touch bar one,

01:13:52   I think was 1,314 or 1,500 as two configs in that ballpark.

01:13:56   So this is a little more money.

01:13:58   But first of all, I think the need for that

01:14:01   in the price slot is greatly reduced by the existence

01:14:05   of the 15 inch MacBook Air.

01:14:06   And frankly, the 13 inch MacBook Air.

01:14:09   The MacBook Air is, I think, will solve almost

01:14:12   everyone's needs who have this kind of need,

01:14:14   with very few exceptions.

01:14:15   But anyway, what's interesting about this new low end

01:14:18   14 inch Pro, yes, it does only have two USB-C

01:14:22   Thunderbolt ports, only the two left ones.

01:14:25   There's no more one on the right for that model.

01:14:27   And that's because the M3 does not support three

01:14:31   USB-C Thunderbolt ports, it only supports two.

01:14:33   So there is a reason for that in the silicon.

01:14:35   Again, die space, market segmentation, these are trade-offs.

01:14:38   That's why they did this.

01:14:40   They didn't just delete the port to save 10 bucks

01:14:42   on the cost of the port or whatever.

01:14:44   They deleted the port because the entire silicon

01:14:47   chip does not support that many of them.

01:14:49   That's the same reason why MacBook Airs only have two ports,

01:14:51   'cause they're using the same chip trade-offs.

01:14:53   And I think that's fine.

01:14:56   Again, this is a low end product.

01:14:57   It's kind of a mid range product at this point,

01:15:01   because what's interesting also,

01:15:03   when they were starting the presentation and they said,

01:15:06   we have all three of these chips, and they said

01:15:08   they're all gonna go into MacBook Pro,

01:15:09   I thought for a second, oh crap,

01:15:11   they updated the Touch Bar one.

01:15:13   'Cause where else would the regular--

01:15:14   - You thought they were gonna put an M3

01:15:15   in the Touch Bar one, that would have been terrible.

01:15:17   - 'Cause where else would they put the non-pro and max chip?

01:15:21   I figured, well, it's not gonna go in the 14 and 16,

01:15:23   so it must go, anyway, so over time,

01:15:26   as they were introducing this low end 14,

01:15:28   then I was thinking, wow, okay, so they added

01:15:31   a low end config to the 14 to fill that void.

01:15:33   That's great news, but surely they're gonna do things

01:15:36   like take away some of the nice pro screen stuff.

01:15:40   Maybe it's not HDR or it doesn't have 120 hertz or whatever.

01:15:44   And they didn't do that.

01:15:45   Then I thought, oh, maybe they'll take away

01:15:47   like some of the speakers or the microphones or whatever,

01:15:50   make the webcam worse.

01:15:51   They didn't do any of those things.

01:15:53   They really just took the 14 inch Pro

01:15:56   with all of the proneness, which by the way,

01:15:58   matches the 16 inch in almost every way

01:16:00   in terms of like nice pro features.

01:16:02   They took the existing awesome 14 inch

01:16:06   and pretty much only changed the chip down to the M3

01:16:11   rather than the M3 Pro and deleted a port.

01:16:14   There's not much other change.

01:16:15   And that to me is actually a huge win for the lineup.

01:16:19   Yes, it is a lesser computer than the 14 inch

01:16:22   with the M3 Pro and Max chip, of course.

01:16:24   That's why it costs $400 less also.

01:16:27   But it is a significant upgrade from the Touch Bar 13 inch

01:16:32   that it's kind of mostly replacing.

01:16:35   And so I consider this, I know this is kind of a hot take

01:16:38   against everyone else, all the YouTubers

01:16:39   are given that face about this,

01:16:41   the YouTube thumbnail face.

01:16:43   You lost a port, oh my God.

01:16:46   But I think this is a win.

01:16:47   This seems like they made this new low end 14 inch

01:16:51   way better than I would have expected

01:16:54   for a replacement to the 13 inch Touch Bar model.

01:16:57   - Yeah, I agree with you.

01:16:58   This is a solid machine.

01:17:00   - I'm glad that the Touch Bar one is gone

01:17:01   'cause that machine was ridiculous.

01:17:03   In this day and age, I'm glad they've got this new one.

01:17:05   I like how they phrased it as a price drop.

01:17:07   I phrased this as a price drop.

01:17:08   They fooled me for a second.

01:17:09   I was like, did they drop the price of the, no, nevermind.

01:17:13   Because they had never sold this line of product

01:17:17   with this hardware case and all that stuff

01:17:20   with the plain M3 in it, or with a plain M whatever in it.

01:17:23   And now they were, and that is why the quote unquote

01:17:25   price drop didn't really drop the price of anything.

01:17:27   Although to be fair, they didn't also crank up

01:17:29   the prices either.

01:17:30   And this is a slight price increase from what I use.

01:17:34   But it's a better machine.

01:17:35   Again, in the age of SOCs, as you pointed out,

01:17:38   when you get the M3, you get everything that comes with it.

01:17:42   In the days when the components were more separate

01:17:45   and battery life was worse, you could do things

01:17:48   like buy the low-end CPU with a ton of RAM.

01:17:51   Can't do that in this day and age.

01:17:53   It's just a side effect of the architecture

01:17:55   Apple has chosen.

01:17:56   It's not that bad.

01:17:58   The plain M3 can go up to 24,

01:18:00   which is fine for a low-end config.

01:18:02   The fact that eight gigs is still the default

01:18:06   in a thing that is called the MacBook Pro,

01:18:08   I still think is not, and here's the thing.

01:18:10   I wouldn't care if they offered that

01:18:13   if we didn't know that Apple's RAM

01:18:15   and all of Apple's upgrade prices are insane.

01:18:17   That's where the margin is.

01:18:19   That's where Tim Cook, right?

01:18:20   It's not so much that they're offering an eight.

01:18:22   It's not even that eight is the default

01:18:23   and that it's unusable with eight.

01:18:24   It's none of those things.

01:18:25   It's that we all know this second,

01:18:27   like in a Porsche dealership,

01:18:28   the second you want anything that comes with it by default,

01:18:32   the price goes up so fast,

01:18:34   because that's where all the margins are.

01:18:36   And that's another thing we have to talk to people about

01:18:39   on all these computers.

01:18:39   This is not specific to the laptops or anything like that.

01:18:42   It's just about Apple.

01:18:44   It's like, okay, you're gonna go in there

01:18:46   and they're gonna get you in the door

01:18:47   with the price that you're gonna see is like,

01:18:49   starting from blah, blah, blah.

01:18:51   Now let me begin the long process

01:18:53   of convincing you not to buy that one.

01:18:55   Doesn't have enough RAM.

01:18:59   And yes, as soon as you see how much it costs

01:19:01   to upgrade those to even the very next notch,

01:19:03   like the reasonable notch of like 512

01:19:05   instead of 256 SSD, you're gonna be like,

01:19:07   whoa, whoa, whoa, you sure I can't get by

01:19:09   with this like, please do not buy a 256 SSD in your laptop.

01:19:12   You're spending so much money.

01:19:14   Trust me on this.

01:19:15   You're gonna fill it and then you're gonna be sad.

01:19:18   So it's not that I think this machine is bad.

01:19:21   I think that Apple has still essentially done nothing

01:19:24   to address the real problem,

01:19:27   especially on their lower end devices of huge margins

01:19:31   that they collect on the upgrades.

01:19:32   Huge margins disconnected from reality every possible way.

01:19:35   That's where their margins are like, I get it.

01:19:37   I understand, but it's just, it's so painful.

01:19:40   That's why we're always waiting for the kind of like

01:19:42   we were with the, what was it like the 16 gig iPhones

01:19:44   or whatever they were stuck at for years.

01:19:45   We're waiting for that year where Apple finally says,

01:19:48   okay, this is the year where we raise the floor

01:19:51   and now you can't get an iPhone

01:19:53   with less than this amount of storage.

01:19:55   So it should lessen the pain.

01:19:58   When does the low end of Apple's, you know,

01:20:00   of the Mac line get off of eight gigs?

01:20:03   Because that will be such a relief

01:20:06   because we assume, I hope, that they will in fact double

01:20:09   and go up to 16 and not go to like nine

01:20:12   or something like that.

01:20:14   When they go to 16, like that first year that they go to 16,

01:20:17   again, thinking about when is the year to buy,

01:20:19   when are the good ones?

01:20:20   That year that they bumped to 16,

01:20:21   if they don't wait a ridiculous amount of time,

01:20:23   that's a great year to buy

01:20:24   because you will never have a healthier amount

01:20:28   of default RAM and then you can, we hope,

01:20:30   if they fix the SSD situation,

01:20:32   buy the base machine and not be punished for it.

01:20:35   But right now, if you buy the base M3 MacBook Pro

01:20:38   with eight gigabytes of RAM,

01:20:40   I think it does come with 512 on the Pro at least,

01:20:42   but that's a machine

01:20:44   where you have to really think twice about.

01:20:45   So yeah, that's just the Cook Doctrine plus the M3 equals,

01:20:50   be a little bit careful with this machine.

01:20:54   - So Marco and I, well,

01:20:56   I don't know if I speak for you on this.

01:20:57   I think I might, but Marco and I have wanted for years,

01:21:02   for sure we've wanted a cellular modem

01:21:05   in the MacBook Pro, that's not happened unfortunately.

01:21:08   But in my computing life, I have very few regrets.

01:21:13   I had a long time in the PC world, I don't regret it.

01:21:16   I know John regrets it on my behalf, but I don't regret it.

01:21:18   - I do, I'm sorry for you.

01:21:20   Sorry that happened to you.

01:21:21   - But perhaps in part because of my long time

01:21:24   in the PC world, I spent a lot of time,

01:21:27   as we discussed on a member special,

01:21:29   I spent a lot of time with Thinkpads.

01:21:31   And those Thinkpads were almost always black

01:21:34   or at least all the good ones were.

01:21:35   And one of my computing regrets was not buying,

01:21:39   not ponying up the 150 bucks, whatever it was,

01:21:42   to get a black book, a polycarbonate,

01:21:44   black polycarbonate MacBook as my first Mac.

01:21:46   Those things were so freaking hot.

01:21:49   And I wanted one so bad, but I was too cheap to do it.

01:21:52   And I had a white one that immediately had

01:21:55   all my hand grease all over it, it was not great.

01:21:57   However, I can write this wrong

01:22:00   because space black is here baby and I'm excited.

01:22:04   I think this thing looks real good.

01:22:07   And I'm told from Jason Snell among others

01:22:09   that I need to pump the brakes a little bit.

01:22:12   It's not as black as I want it to be,

01:22:13   but oh man, this thing looks good.

01:22:16   And Marco, we didn't get our cellular modem,

01:22:18   but we got space black and I'm excited.

01:22:20   - So first of all, again, I gotta see this in person.

01:22:23   I'm really curious about it.

01:22:24   I think it would be cool to have a really black looking

01:22:27   MacBook Pro for the first time ever.

01:22:29   But yeah, by all accounts, it's hard to tell

01:22:32   from the YouTube hands on videos.

01:22:34   When you click the thumbnail after they give that face,

01:22:37   usually you can see some kind of clip

01:22:39   from behind the scenes of the event Apple held yesterday

01:22:41   with all the YouTubers being able to take B roll.

01:22:43   And they're turning the MacBook around.

01:22:45   But it's under this harsh spotlight

01:22:47   because they have all this trendy lighting.

01:22:49   And so it's really hard to tell

01:22:51   how these are gonna look in person.

01:22:52   It seems like they're gonna look fairly dark,

01:22:55   but space gray was not a very dark gray at all.

01:22:58   Space black looks like it is darker,

01:23:01   but then you see the black plastic of the keyboard well,

01:23:04   and you're like, well, that's much darker

01:23:05   than the black aluminum surround.

01:23:07   So I don't know.

01:23:09   - Yeah, it's not ThinkPad black.

01:23:10   - No. - It's not even

01:23:11   Blackbook black.

01:23:12   The original black MacBook, I think,

01:23:14   was blacker than this thing appears to be.

01:23:16   - Yeah, and I'm not sure what color Apple thinks space is.

01:23:21   (laughing)

01:23:22   They have had a number of colors over the years

01:23:25   called space gray and space black and midnight

01:23:28   and all these terms that suggest an absence of light,

01:23:31   which would suggest black.

01:23:34   And yet, they keep making all of these different shades

01:23:37   of what basically are medium to dark grays.

01:23:40   Look around your office,

01:23:41   look around anywhere in the electronics business,

01:23:43   lots of stuff is actually black, just black.

01:23:46   Like power cords, black cases for other things.

01:23:48   - The keyboard.

01:23:49   - Yeah, like lots of stuff.

01:23:51   There's a very clear reference

01:23:52   for what black means in electronics.

01:23:55   (laughing)

01:23:56   And I don't know what they're doing here.

01:23:58   - I mean, I think there's a threshold.

01:24:01   Like obviously, the keyboard is not actually black black.

01:24:03   It's not like that Vantablack, it's not like a black hole.

01:24:05   Like it absorbs all light.

01:24:07   But there is a threshold where most people will consider

01:24:09   that is passed now from dark gray into black.

01:24:11   And no computer hardware that Apple has made

01:24:15   in recent years has passed that bar.

01:24:16   I think the original black MacBook did pass that bar.

01:24:18   I think if you show that to anybody,

01:24:20   they would say this computer is black.

01:24:22   But if you show this space black computer people,

01:24:24   I think they will say it is really dark gray.

01:24:26   - Yeah, that's what it seems.

01:24:28   And yet it's called space black,

01:24:30   which is a different shade of black

01:24:31   than the space black on the Apple Watch.

01:24:33   It's a different shade of black than space and black.

01:24:37   Like it just--

01:24:38   - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:24:39   - And so one of the issues with black,

01:24:41   like on the midnight MacBook Air,

01:24:43   which is a very dark blue, is fingerprints.

01:24:46   And so Apple actually has something regarding

01:24:49   that they set it in the video,

01:24:51   that has a special finish that makes it so fingerprints

01:24:53   don't show up as much, whatever their wording was.

01:24:55   But the idea is that they know this is a problem

01:24:58   and they have what they think is a solution.

01:25:00   And I've heard two different reports about this.

01:25:03   Jason Stell says, "You can still see fingerprints."

01:25:06   They're not as prominent,

01:25:07   and it is a big improvement over the midnight one,

01:25:09   but it does not totally fix the fingerprint problem.

01:25:13   John Gruber says, as far as he could tell,

01:25:16   it pretty much solves the fingerprint problem.

01:25:18   So I guess it depends on what lighting you're in,

01:25:21   how greasy your fingers are.

01:25:22   Any improvement is good though.

01:25:24   The fact that it's a coating worries me a little bit,

01:25:26   'cause it's that coating wear off.

01:25:28   Same thing with the color, the dark gray color.

01:25:31   One of the advantages of the more natural looking silver

01:25:36   and even the old space gray thing is

01:25:39   that if you do scratch it and get through that finish,

01:25:42   there's not much of a contrast.

01:25:43   But we've seen with the iPhone 15 Pros,

01:25:45   with their various finishes this year,

01:25:47   where the YouTubers take like a razor blade to it

01:25:49   or whatever they do for views,

01:25:51   and jab it into the side. - Why?

01:25:53   - Yeah, underneath there is very shiny titanium in that case

01:25:56   and it really shows up a lot.

01:25:58   So the darker you make this thing,

01:25:59   if the darkness is just a coating,

01:26:01   when you scratch that coating,

01:26:02   it's gonna stand out more than if you had a lighter color.

01:26:06   So the coating for the fingerprints,

01:26:09   plus the fact that the anodization is darker

01:26:11   and the aluminum underneath presumably is lighter,

01:26:14   may present some challenges for the appearance

01:26:19   being preserved over a long period of time.

01:26:21   But we'll find out once people get these.

01:26:22   Like maybe the coating holds up really well,

01:26:24   maybe the anodization doesn't scratch easily.

01:26:26   Either way, I endorse them addressing this problem

01:26:29   instead of saying Johnny Ive style.

01:26:31   We've made the perfect computer, now don't touch it.

01:26:33   - Yeah. (laughs)

01:26:34   Yeah, first of all, I think it's really funny

01:26:37   that I think they spent almost as much time

01:26:40   introducing the color as they spent

01:26:42   introducing the M3 Max chip. (laughs)

01:26:45   Like that's how important--

01:26:45   - It's a very important innovation.

01:26:47   They've almost figured out how to make black.

01:26:49   - Yeah, exactly.

01:26:50   I mean, almost, not quite, maybe next year.

01:26:52   (laughs)

01:26:52   And it's funny too, literally all the YouTubers,

01:26:55   all the ooh faces, half the video is about the color.

01:26:58   So I get it and that is a big appealing thing

01:27:02   for people who like shiny things

01:27:03   and don't care about setting money on fire.

01:27:05   So I get why it's a big deal to everybody.

01:27:07   But it is pretty funny how big of a deal it is

01:27:12   that we took your silver and gray laptop choice

01:27:16   and made it silver and darker gray

01:27:18   and everyone's freaking out. (laughs)

01:27:21   It's amazing.

01:27:22   - I can give the people what they want.

01:27:24   - Yep, I'm excited.

01:27:25   So then we got Kate Berger on to come up

01:27:28   and tell us a little bit more specifics.

01:27:29   A 14-inch MacBook Pro, 11 times faster

01:27:32   than the fastest Intel MacBook Pro.

01:27:33   See ya, Intel.

01:27:34   I felt like they were, I wanna say snarkier.

01:27:37   I don't think that's the word I'm looking for,

01:27:38   but they were more aggressive

01:27:40   about crapping all over Intel this presentation.

01:27:43   - But the thing is they're not crapping all over Intel.

01:27:45   Intel is actually making better and better chips,

01:27:47   but they're crapping all over is whatever chip

01:27:49   was in Apple's Intel laptop like three years ago.

01:27:52   - Yeah, that's there.

01:27:53   - They're crapping all over themselves.

01:27:55   Intel is not a stationary target.

01:27:57   Intel continues to put out new CPUs

01:28:00   and some of them are actually getting better.

01:28:02   And so it's not like,

01:28:03   they have to stop comparing to Intel eventually

01:28:06   because maybe the idea is if you just say Intel,

01:28:10   people won't think and they'll say,

01:28:11   that means that Apple's chips are 11 times better

01:28:14   than anything Intel has to offer,

01:28:15   which is obviously not true.

01:28:17   I guess they don't realize they're comparing

01:28:18   to a really old computer, but like how long do you compare?

01:28:22   How long were we comparing PowerPC computers,

01:28:24   68K counterparts?

01:28:25   How long did we compare the Intel ones

01:28:27   to the PowerPC predecessors?

01:28:29   Like you gotta let it go eventually.

01:28:31   'Cause eventually the number becomes meaningless

01:28:34   'cause so many things have changed.

01:28:35   The operating system has changed, everything,

01:28:37   all the software has changed.

01:28:38   It's no longer meaningful.

01:28:40   So as much as I complained about not comparing to the M2,

01:28:42   comparing to Intel, I guess it's fun to put a big number

01:28:47   on the screen, but it's silly and they should stop doing it,

01:28:50   let's say next year.

01:28:51   - Yeah, I think the context is basically,

01:28:54   when they're making that kind of comparison

01:28:56   to the fastest Intel version of XYZ, of their own computers,

01:29:01   I think they're talking less to PC people

01:29:04   and more to Apple's customers who haven't upgraded

01:29:07   to the M series of chips yet.

01:29:08   That's really the idea here is like,

01:29:09   hey, look, this old Intel iMac you're holding onto,

01:29:13   you gotta upgrade, now's the time.

01:29:15   - Yeah, I know, but the thing is,

01:29:17   they can make that point in other ways.

01:29:19   And I think those people know.

01:29:21   People with really old computers,

01:29:22   they know that no matter what they get,

01:29:24   it's gonna be so much faster.

01:29:26   And maybe they need Apple to say 11 times faster

01:29:28   or something to convince them, but I don't know.

01:29:32   I feel like that point could be,

01:29:34   maybe it's because it tends to be in the same part

01:29:37   of the little thing where they're talking about benchmarks.

01:29:39   And so they're basically jumping from,

01:29:41   here's what you need to know in terms of

01:29:43   what kind of incremental performance improvements we've made

01:29:45   to jumping immediately to, and by the way,

01:29:47   if you've got an old Mac, you should really buy a new one.

01:29:49   - We would like to stop supporting Intel, please,

01:29:52   and thank you, so now's the time.

01:29:53   - Shh, shh, stop.

01:29:55   - 11 times, oh, yeah, sorry, John.

01:29:57   11 times faster than the fastest Intel MacBook Pro.

01:30:00   Kate specifically said, "For the vast majority of workflows,

01:30:02   "you'll never hear the fans," ahem, gentlemen.

01:30:05   - Applause for that line, by the way.

01:30:07   - 1080p FaceTime camera.

01:30:09   I wrote down, but I wonder, I might have this wrong,

01:30:12   I think it's for HDR specifically,

01:30:14   it's 1000 nits sustained, 1600 nits peak.

01:30:17   - That was unchanged.

01:30:18   What was changed was that the non-HDR, SDR, regular content,

01:30:23   that max went from 500 nits to 600.

01:30:26   - And they made an interesting point,

01:30:28   which it took me to the second viewing

01:30:29   to put it together what they were talking about,

01:30:31   that if you have a studio display,

01:30:33   that also for SDR content, or I guess for everything really,

01:30:36   is 600 nits, so the brightness, the max brightness

01:30:40   between the two screens is identical,

01:30:42   just in terms of brightness, and that's kinda neat.

01:30:45   I mean, it's not a big deal, but it's kinda neat.

01:30:47   - They haven't raised that in a while,

01:30:49   so that's why that was noteworthy.

01:30:50   It's been 500 on the Pros for some time.

01:30:53   - Yep.

01:30:54   - And isn't it 600 on the, what is it 600 on,

01:30:57   the MacBook Air, something that's out now is 600.

01:31:00   - I don't remember offhand.

01:31:01   - I have you thinking of a phone, but yeah,

01:31:03   now this is a thing in the world of televisions as well,

01:31:07   because you've got high dynamic range, HDR video,

01:31:11   and then you've got, I guess, SDR, standard dynamic range,

01:31:14   which is like regular TV, and there are specifications,

01:31:19   before high dynamic range, there were specifications

01:31:22   for regular TV that would say,

01:31:25   here's what the maximum brightness should be

01:31:27   for a non-high dynamic range video signal.

01:31:31   But that brightness is pretty low,

01:31:33   and so most TVs these days say,

01:31:36   yeah, even though the spec says we shouldn't show higher

01:31:38   than whatever it is, 300 nits or whatever,

01:31:40   it's really low, like what the non-high dynamic range TV

01:31:44   maximum brightness should be,

01:31:45   we know that it makes the thing hard to see

01:31:47   if you've got a sunny room.

01:31:49   So pretty much every TV says, hey,

01:31:51   if we can make the non-HDR stuff brighter, we will.

01:31:54   And I think that's what Apple is doing here,

01:31:55   not that there's any spec dictating what,

01:31:58   you know, they should have on the screen,

01:31:59   but like, yeah, at HDR, you can do this amazing stuff,

01:32:01   but like, your UI is not HDR.

01:32:04   The windows, the titles, the menu bars, the buttons,

01:32:06   the background of your text editor, none of that is HDR.

01:32:09   Unless you're looking at HDR video,

01:32:10   it's quote unquote, SDR or whatever.

01:32:13   But, and they wanna separate the two,

01:32:15   because otherwise high dynamic range doesn't look high,

01:32:17   'cause it's the same as, you know,

01:32:19   but raising the standard dynamic range level

01:32:22   so you can see it better is a,

01:32:25   is probably one of the most important things they can do,

01:32:27   because unless you're editing HDR video all day,

01:32:30   you're looking at your screen in the, you know,

01:32:33   standard dynamic range mode all the time.

01:32:36   And if you can't see the screen 'cause it's sunny

01:32:38   and you're at the beach or whatever with your laptop

01:32:39   getting sand in it, it's great that you can now crank that up

01:32:43   obviously it will burn your battery more,

01:32:44   but I do wonder how, like, 'cause they could choose,

01:32:47   they could, and there are utilities you can get to do this.

01:32:49   You can just run your screen at 1600 nits all the time

01:32:51   when your windows can be 600 nits.

01:32:53   I do not recommend this, it will burn your retinas out,

01:32:55   but they could keep creeping those two things

01:32:58   closer and closer to each other, like, oh, the max is 16,

01:33:01   and then the regular non-HDR max was 500.

01:33:04   Now it's this, now it's that,

01:33:05   and like, they can keep creeping it up,

01:33:06   but if they get them too close to each other,

01:33:08   then HDR loses its effect, so maybe the HDR peak

01:33:12   will start moving up because, you know,

01:33:13   televisions can go higher than 1600 these days,

01:33:16   but we'll see.

01:33:17   - They also have 16 inch versions of all these models,

01:33:20   which, that's not for me, it's not to say they're bad,

01:33:22   just not for me.

01:33:23   - They're for me, they're great.

01:33:25   - Fair enough.

01:33:25   The release schedule, John Turnis took us through the,

01:33:30   so you could order anything immediately.

01:33:32   The M3 is available immediately,

01:33:36   the M3 Pro is available this coming week,

01:33:40   or next week, I guess, actually, I'm sorry,

01:33:42   and then the M3 max later in November is all we know.

01:33:45   - It's the teens, it's like the teens of November

01:33:47   are all the ship dates for the M3 maxes.

01:33:49   - Okay, I guess we can talk here about

01:33:51   whether or not we ordered anything,

01:33:53   then we have to briefly talk about the postscript

01:33:55   of this entire presentation.

01:33:57   - The entire iMac, you mean?

01:33:59   - That's exactly right.

01:34:00   I have not yet ordered anything,

01:34:02   but my current intention is to basically

01:34:04   duplicate this machine, but in space black with an M3 max.

01:34:07   So I currently have a 14 inch M1 max

01:34:10   with 64 gigs of RAM and four terabyte storage.

01:34:14   My intention is, although, again,

01:34:16   I just haven't had the time to do it,

01:34:17   my intention is to order a space black 14 inch M3 max

01:34:22   with 64 gigs.

01:34:23   The 96 is tempting, and 128 is tempting,

01:34:27   but I don't think I would ever use it.

01:34:28   I probably don't even need the 64,

01:34:30   if I'm really honest with myself, but here we are.

01:34:32   - Well, also, if you want all the CPU cores,

01:34:34   you can't pick 96.

01:34:36   - Oh, that's right, I forgot about that.

01:34:37   Yeah, you're right about that.

01:34:39   And then I tried to convince myself

01:34:42   that eight terabytes would be nice

01:34:43   for a little extra breathing room, but--

01:34:45   - Now you saw the price.

01:34:46   - Then I saw the price, and I said,

01:34:47   "Nope, I'm just gonna have to delete some stuff,

01:34:49   "'cause that's not gonna work."

01:34:51   And so I'm gonna go four terabytes again.

01:34:53   So, like I said, I plan to get a replacement

01:34:56   for this computer.

01:34:58   I'm not entirely sure what I'm gonna do with this one,

01:35:00   to be honest with you.

01:35:01   I might just trade it in.

01:35:02   If somebody's looking for one, let me know.

01:35:05   But Aaron doesn't need one, and the kids don't need one,

01:35:08   so I'm not sure what I'm gonna do, but we'll figure it out.

01:35:12   Jon, I know you bought at least three laptops, right?

01:35:14   - As excited as I am for the M3 max,

01:35:18   I think it's gonna be great in a laptop.

01:35:20   I don't like laptops, I'm not getting one.

01:35:21   - All right, so Marco, the person I actually wanted

01:35:24   to talk to about it, I just had to get Jon out of the way.

01:35:26   So what have you ordered, or what will you plan to order?

01:35:29   - You know, as I've talked about many times in this show,

01:35:31   I've loved using my 16-inch M1 max MacBook Pro

01:35:36   as a desktop this entire time.

01:35:38   I have the ridiculous Pro Display XDR,

01:35:41   I have this amazing laptop that has been

01:35:44   a fantastic desktop this entire time.

01:35:47   This has been amazing, best computer I've ever had,

01:35:49   my favorite computer I've ever had.

01:35:51   All of the downsides of using a laptop as a desktop

01:35:54   from pre-M1 days are gone.

01:35:56   It is reliable, and I keep it in clamshell mode

01:35:59   and a little stand-up stand.

01:36:01   It is reliable, it is quiet, it is silent,

01:36:04   like I never hear of a fan.

01:36:05   It has just been fantastic.

01:36:07   And when the Max Studio came out, it was tempting.

01:36:11   Hey, maybe I should double my CPU performance

01:36:14   by getting the M1 or M2 Ultra versions of the Max Studio.

01:36:18   A lot of things kept me in the desktop/laptop lifestyle.

01:36:22   Number one of which is I've been portable.

01:36:24   I've talked about, I'm moving my house,

01:36:26   and so I'm back and forth a lot to different places.

01:36:29   I'm so happy with the 16-inch as that role,

01:36:32   where when I'm actually traveling somewhere,

01:36:36   I bring that, and I have all my stuff on it,

01:36:39   I can get all my work done on the biggest screen

01:36:42   that is available in an Apple laptop.

01:36:44   That's why I haven't gone to the desktop,

01:36:46   and I haven't gone to the studio,

01:36:46   even though the performance jump would be substantial.

01:36:50   I could double my CPU performance.

01:36:52   And for all my super heavy-duty Xcode work

01:36:56   that I've been doing over the last few months,

01:36:57   and that I will continue to do

01:36:58   for probably the next year very heavily,

01:37:01   I really am maxing out the CPU all the time,

01:37:04   doing a lot of Xcode compilation, a ton of Swift UI work,

01:37:08   a ton of Swift work, like tons of very

01:37:11   CPU-intensive work happening here.

01:37:14   I skipped M2, 'cause it was a nice upgrade,

01:37:17   but it wasn't quite enough to make me replace it.

01:37:19   This one I'm going with.

01:37:20   This one I'm buying this, so I got the 16-inch M3 Max.

01:37:25   I'm not gonna apologize for this even a little.

01:37:30   I maxed the whole thing out, it's ridiculous.

01:37:32   - Oh, my word.

01:37:33   - Because I actually use this.

01:37:36   - You think you'd use the RAM?

01:37:38   I can get behind the SSD,

01:37:39   and I can get behind the cores and whatnot,

01:37:41   but you really think you would use all that RAM?

01:37:43   - I mean, his other choice is 64, though.

01:37:45   That's the problem. - That's the thing.

01:37:46   If 96 was an option, I would've picked it,

01:37:48   but I wasn't gonna give up CPU cores for that,

01:37:51   and I actually do occasionally use swap on my 64,

01:37:55   and I'm expecting this to last me another two to three years,

01:37:58   so I'm like, well, if I'm already kissing that 64 limit now,

01:38:02   what's gonna happen over the next two years?

01:38:04   - But when you say you use swap, like everybody uses swap.

01:38:07   The swap files will be created,

01:38:08   and there will be things in them,

01:38:09   but they could be just dormant stuff, so are you swapping?

01:38:12   Do you see, I don't know what weird resource-destroying

01:38:16   things you're running in your menu are,

01:38:17   but do you see swapping activity where your computer

01:38:21   is spending time shuffling things to and from the swap file

01:38:23   when it could be doing useful work,

01:38:24   or is it just the fact that you see a swap file

01:38:26   has been created and it exists and has some stuff in it?

01:38:28   - I see Activity Monitor reports

01:38:30   there haven't been swap usage.

01:38:32   - I mean, that's what I'm saying.

01:38:34   There'll almost always be swap usage,

01:38:37   because when things get dormant,

01:38:38   they'll get put into the swap file,

01:38:39   swap files will be created.

01:38:41   What you care about is swapping,

01:38:42   which is excessive movement of things to and from.

01:38:45   To accomplish, this is the worst case of swapping,

01:38:48   to accomplish your task, you need some stuff that's in swap,

01:38:51   but then to do stuff later in that same task,

01:38:54   you need to put things in swap

01:38:55   and get the things you put there back out again.

01:38:57   That is swapping, 'cause then you're going like,

01:38:59   to do a single thing, you're going back and forth

01:39:01   and back and forth and back and forth.

01:39:02   I'm not saying you shouldn't buy more RAM.

01:39:04   I'm all for buying more RAM.

01:39:06   Again, with my computer, you just wanna solve

01:39:07   the RAM problem so you never have to think about it again.

01:39:10   It sounds like, whether it is justified or not,

01:39:12   you are currently thinking about RAM a little bit sometimes.

01:39:15   So by going 128, you get in a situation

01:39:18   where you can be like me and no longer think about RAM,

01:39:20   but I'm not entirely sure that it was actually

01:39:22   a thing that was affecting your life, performance-wise.

01:39:25   - Maybe not, but again, this is kind of

01:39:27   being forward-looking.

01:39:28   Also, there is a trade-off.

01:39:29   RAM uses power, and so if this was a laptop

01:39:33   that I frequently used on battery

01:39:34   and was really stretching battery life needs,

01:39:36   I would not have jumped that RAM up,

01:39:38   because I would wanna keep the power usage

01:39:39   a little bit lower to conserve battery life.

01:39:42   - Although I do wonder, I mean, you're right

01:39:44   that more RAM is gonna use more power than less,

01:39:46   but back in the bad old days, where a lot of our instincts

01:39:50   about computers came from, if you got more RAM,

01:39:53   it would be in the form of more DIMMs,

01:39:56   and each of those would have X number of chips on them

01:39:58   and have to be powered and everything like that,

01:40:00   but these days, the RAM increases pretty much

01:40:03   within a certain range come entirely

01:40:05   from larger-capacity chips but of the same number,

01:40:08   so you're getting four RAM chips no matter what, I think.

01:40:11   It's just a question of how big they are,

01:40:12   and yes, the big ones do use more power

01:40:14   than the smaller ones, but it's not the same

01:40:15   as doubling your RAM and then doubling the number of chips.

01:40:18   That's what it was in the bad old days.

01:40:20   - No, but you are doubling the number

01:40:23   of those little transistors that store the bits.

01:40:25   - Yeah, it is true.

01:40:27   I do wonder what the difference is.

01:40:29   I think it was much worse when you had

01:40:31   an entirely new printed circuit board

01:40:32   with all of its power regulation stuff,

01:40:35   as opposed to just paying the price

01:40:37   for the extra transistors that implement the memory.

01:40:42   What I'm saying is it's not as bad as it used to be.

01:40:44   This is one of the advantages of the SoC era

01:40:46   is that doubling your RAM is not as big a hit

01:40:50   to your power usage as it used to be.

01:40:52   - You're probably right, it isn't as big of a hit,

01:40:53   but it does still use power the more RAM you have,

01:40:58   and from my understanding, as of a few years ago,

01:41:00   this might be out of date now, but as of a few years ago,

01:41:03   that power budget was not nothing.

01:41:05   It was not massive.

01:41:07   It wasn't as big of a deal as maxing out the CPU

01:41:09   versus not maxing out the CPU.

01:41:10   - Or turning out the brightness on your screen.

01:41:12   - Right, right, but it seemed to be a contributor

01:41:15   to battery life of something on the order

01:41:17   of maybe 5% of your battery life,

01:41:20   five or 10%, something like that.

01:41:22   That's, I believe, what it was a few years ago.

01:41:24   Again, I don't know what it is now.

01:41:26   So it wasn't nothing, but it wasn't massive.

01:41:29   But anyway, so I wouldn't max out the RAM

01:41:31   if this was my portable battery life monster.

01:41:35   Then I would actually be more conservative with it.

01:41:37   But again, this is my desktop.

01:41:40   And I love, by the way, I love so much

01:41:44   that being in the desktop/laptop lifestyle,

01:41:47   we get the good chips first.

01:41:50   The Mac Studio and the Mac Pro have to wait

01:41:53   until the Ultra chip is ready.

01:41:56   Right now, if you want the fastest Mac at most things,

01:42:01   it's a MacBook Pro.

01:42:03   And that has been true for the last two years,

01:42:05   and will probably continue to be true

01:42:08   for the foreseeable future that

01:42:10   there are large parts of each year

01:42:12   where the fastest Mac at most tasks is a MacBook Pro.

01:42:16   - When you say most tasks, though,

01:42:17   are you just excluding anything

01:42:19   that has to do with the GPU?

01:42:20   'Cause you kinda have to.

01:42:22   - No, well, I'm thinking things like

01:42:24   the individual single-core performance is pretty important.

01:42:28   - Yeah, yeah, no, sure.

01:42:29   And even multi-core, even most multi-core things

01:42:32   can't take advantage of the parallelism,

01:42:33   but the GPU thing is really the elephant in the room.

01:42:37   And also because if regular people are doing anything

01:42:40   over the computer that they find slow,

01:42:42   chances are good it's a game.

01:42:43   And in that case, the Ultra is gonna stomp all over the Macs

01:42:45   because it's got twice as much.

01:42:46   - Well, chances are they're not playing

01:42:47   the game on a Mac, though.

01:42:49   - I don't know, Apple, that was one of the rumors,

01:42:51   by the way, we didn't talk about this,

01:42:52   but like, why was this at 8 p.m.?

01:42:54   Oh, because it's spooky.

01:42:54   That seems to be the answer, because it's spooky,

01:42:56   but there was a lot of things like,

01:42:57   oh, they want it to be during the daytime in Japan

01:43:00   because they're gonna have the big gaming announcement,

01:43:02   and they're gonna have all people

01:43:03   from Japanese game companies,

01:43:04   and they did talk about gaming,

01:43:06   and they did show the same games they always show.

01:43:08   Like, whatever, like, but it was not,

01:43:10   they didn't have like famous people

01:43:11   from Japanese game companies talk to us about their games.

01:43:14   They didn't have any announcements about any partnerships

01:43:16   with big Japanese game companies.

01:43:18   So I feel like the whole,

01:43:19   we wanted this to be on during the day in Japan thing

01:43:22   didn't really pan out.

01:43:23   But then, you know, and they emphasized gaming

01:43:25   in the same way that they always do

01:43:27   when they talk about the Mac lately,

01:43:29   but they didn't have anything to announce in this area.

01:43:32   I do like that the Mac's GPU is better.

01:43:34   We'll see what the benchmarks look like,

01:43:35   but, you know, don't game on a Mac laptop,

01:43:38   I guess is the answer.

01:43:39   - I mean, I think at this point, you know,

01:43:41   regarding gaming, it is wonderful,

01:43:44   and it's a huge game changer, sunglasses.

01:43:48   - See what you did there.

01:43:49   (laughing)

01:43:50   - That all Macs with Apple Silicon

01:43:53   now have decently gaming capable GPUs.

01:43:56   That was something that was not the case in the Intel era.

01:43:59   Like, the Intel era, only the MacBook Pros,

01:44:02   and only the high-end MacBook Pros had GPUs

01:44:05   that could do anything in games.

01:44:07   Now, every Mac with Apple Silicon,

01:44:09   which is now every Mac that's sold,

01:44:11   has a decently gaming capable GPU.

01:44:14   Yeah, I know it's not the highest end thing in the world,

01:44:16   but it's decently gaming capable.

01:44:18   That wasn't the case until, again, the modern era.

01:44:20   The issue with gaming on the Mac now is not GPU power.

01:44:26   Now, it's, say, environmental factors.

01:44:30   - It's a little bit GPU power on the high end, still.

01:44:32   - But only on the high end.

01:44:33   But again, Apple's not getting high-end gamers.

01:44:35   Like, high-end gamers are gonna build gaming PCs.

01:44:37   - But I know, but Macs are the PCs of the Apple world.

01:44:41   (laughing)

01:44:42   Like, this is that market, right?

01:44:44   And to the extent that you're looking at that market at all,

01:44:48   as in PC gaming, when you say PC gaming,

01:44:51   you usually mean the games that will stress your PC,

01:44:54   and people want the PC that costs more money

01:44:57   than they can afford, that will play the game

01:44:58   that they wanna play on their PC at a better frame rate.

01:45:02   And to the extent that Apple wants to be

01:45:04   at that market at all, they are now less competitive

01:45:07   than they had ever been.

01:45:08   That's just that market.

01:45:09   In the whole rest of the, you know,

01:45:11   if you don't look at PC gaming, but you look at, like,

01:45:14   mobile gaming, casual gaming, stuff like that,

01:45:16   playing AAA games that everyone else played three years ago,

01:45:20   yeah, Apple's doing well in that area.

01:45:21   - From a game maker perspective, in the Intel era,

01:45:25   there were not enough people who would buy games on Macs

01:45:30   who had gaming-capable GPUs, 'cause everyone had

01:45:33   these crappy Intel-ingrated GPUs on almost every Mac.

01:45:36   So that limited the market by a lot.

01:45:38   Now, the numbers are now there.

01:45:41   Now, it's not gonna be as much.

01:45:43   - Well, the percentages are there.

01:45:43   The percentages are there.

01:45:44   - Well, right, yes.

01:45:45   - Now, the percentage of the Mac user base

01:45:48   that can play your game at all and have a good experience

01:45:50   is going way up, which is great.

01:45:52   But the absolute numbers of Mac sold

01:45:55   is really the convincer in terms of, like,

01:45:57   should we make a Mac version of this game?

01:45:58   This is a thing that I'll follow up with,

01:45:59   and we'll talk about it in a future episode

01:46:00   about another company saying, yeah,

01:46:02   we're not gonna make the Mac version of a game anymore.

01:46:04   And why?

01:46:04   It's not because Mac hardware is bad.

01:46:06   So just aren't enough Mac users.

01:46:07   Even if literally 100% of Mac users

01:46:09   that exist in the entire world bought your game,

01:46:11   some people may be like, eh, not sure.

01:46:14   We can just, and that's on Apple.

01:46:15   Like, that's why iPhone gaming is so popular.

01:46:18   You know how you get gaming to be popular on the iPhone?

01:46:20   Sell a bazillion iPhones.

01:46:22   And then people are like, my potential customer base

01:46:25   is how many billion people?

01:46:26   Sure, yes, whatever my game is,

01:46:28   I will make sure I can port it to the iPhone

01:46:31   because you've sold so many of them.

01:46:33   If Apple could sell as many Macs as iPhones,

01:46:35   gaming on the Mac would be amazing,

01:46:37   but we're not quite there yet.

01:46:38   - Well, and I know this is probably a better discussion

01:46:41   for another day, but like, you know,

01:46:43   Apple seems to have an institutional inability

01:46:48   to court developers.

01:46:50   Developers come to Apple willingly

01:46:52   for the high volume platforms, mostly the iPhone,

01:46:56   because we are so motivated to be on those platforms

01:47:01   that we will tolerate Apple's BS as a developer,

01:47:04   that they give us as developers.

01:47:06   Whereas the platforms where Apple kinda has to try

01:47:09   to get people to them, they are terrible at that culturally.

01:47:13   They are not used to not having the power

01:47:15   'cause Apple is so, they think of all

01:47:17   of their developer markets the same way

01:47:19   they think of the iPhone.

01:47:20   Like, why aren't people lining up and knocking on the door

01:47:23   and tolerating all of our BS and paying all of our fees?

01:47:25   What do you mean everyone isn't desperate to do that

01:47:27   on this platform that has way lower volume?

01:47:30   But Apple is just incapable, culturally,

01:47:34   of dealing well with those markets,

01:47:35   of actually courting developers,

01:47:37   of actually getting big companies to care

01:47:39   about their platforms in a strong way

01:47:41   and devote a lot of resources when they don't have to.

01:47:44   You know, and it's unfortunate,

01:47:46   but that's the way Apple is culturally,

01:47:48   and it would take a lot of change

01:47:50   in the company to change that.

01:47:51   - Yeah, we saw that in a lot of the court cases.

01:47:53   Like, it's kind of like an attribution mistake,

01:47:55   which is understandable, but like,

01:47:56   when they were talking about the App Store

01:47:58   and their fees that they take

01:48:01   and whether it's justified or whatever,

01:48:03   it seemed like when a lot of Apple executives are up there,

01:48:06   the misattribution they were making was,

01:48:08   we have made this amazing product, the iPhone,

01:48:11   and you wanna be on it because of the great job

01:48:16   that we did in making this great product,

01:48:19   and that's why we deserve some of the value

01:48:21   because without this platform,

01:48:24   what would you be deploying your thing on?

01:48:25   Like, it's a give and take, but they're saying like,

01:48:26   it's because we did such a good job with the iPhone

01:48:28   that you wanna be on it, but it's, like you said, Margo,

01:48:32   like, the actual thing is,

01:48:34   the thing you did a good job with Apple

01:48:36   is selling a lot of iPhones.

01:48:38   Now, yes, those are two things that are connected.

01:48:39   Oh, they sell a lot of iPhones because it's a good phone.

01:48:41   Like, I get it, right,

01:48:42   but I feel like the Apple executives feel like,

01:48:45   because we have made a really good product,

01:48:47   that's why we deserve to be successful in this market,

01:48:50   to have developers wanting to develop or whatever.

01:48:52   Same thing with the Vision Pro.

01:48:53   Like, the Vision Pro may be an amazing product,

01:48:54   but like, eventually,

01:48:56   how do you get sustained developer interest?

01:48:59   You have to sell a lot of your product,

01:49:02   and despite the fact that those two things

01:49:04   are linked to product quality and how many of them you sell,

01:49:08   they diverge in certain areas for historical

01:49:11   and other reasons, like on the Mac, right?

01:49:14   The Mac is a great product, we love it.

01:49:16   They don't sell as many of those as they do iPhones.

01:49:19   They don't even sell as many of those

01:49:20   as the world does Windows PCs.

01:49:22   And so the thing Apple always seems to be proud of

01:49:24   is the quality of their product,

01:49:26   but I feel like I should say,

01:49:27   we deserve part of your money

01:49:30   because we sold 17 billion iPhones.

01:49:32   That like, we did that,

01:49:34   and that makes you able to make money on our platform.

01:49:37   Why?

01:49:38   Not because the phone is great,

01:49:38   but because you sold a billion of it.

01:49:39   It's like one degree, like, they're so focused on,

01:49:42   we've done such a good job on our products,

01:49:43   that's why we deserve this.

01:49:44   I wish they were focused more on,

01:49:46   how can we sell more of these?

01:49:47   And if you wanted to sell more Macs, for example,

01:49:49   you'd cut your margins,

01:49:50   you'd make a low-cost MacBook that we keep talking about

01:49:53   that will maybe eventually be released.

01:49:55   There are different ways to sell more Macs,

01:49:57   and I love the fact that they made the Macs better,

01:49:59   and they're great, and they're awesome,

01:50:00   that should help them sell more.

01:50:02   But if you ever really wanna move the needle on Mac gaming,

01:50:04   you shouldn't be like,

01:50:05   people should be making games on our platform.

01:50:07   Maybe we just need to make the technology better.

01:50:09   No, Apple, you need to sell more Macs.

01:50:11   That's how you do it.

01:50:12   Sell more Macs.

01:50:13   I know Tim Cook doesn't need to hear that.

01:50:15   - And in the meantime,

01:50:16   it is kind of a chicken and egg problem.

01:50:18   Yeah, there's not a lot of gamers who wanna game on Macs

01:50:20   because there's not a lot of games on Macs.

01:50:21   There is a bit of a chicken and egg problem there,

01:50:23   and the way you solve that is not by making APIs

01:50:27   or making faster hardware.

01:50:29   - You gotta do that too.

01:50:30   - You do, that's not, yeah.

01:50:31   But the way you solve that

01:50:33   is by making much larger changes and investments,

01:50:36   things like paying for your own games to be made

01:50:39   or dealing better with game developers.

01:50:41   - Buying a couple of gaming studios

01:50:42   and bringing them in-house

01:50:43   like every other big game platform does.

01:50:45   - That's how you do that kind of stuff.

01:50:47   Apple has spent decades giving the finger to gamers mostly

01:50:51   and game developers.

01:50:52   And so you can't just all of a sudden expect that to change.

01:50:57   There's a deep cultural resentment of Apple

01:51:01   among many gamers and game developers

01:51:03   based on their actions over years and years and years

01:51:05   and based on the market realities

01:51:06   over years and years and years.

01:51:08   And you don't just change that.

01:51:09   I mean, God, look at the Mac App Store.

01:51:11   It's an abandoned flea market at this point.

01:51:14   There's so many problems they would have to address.

01:51:16   Certainly no one's gonna wanna pay them 30%.

01:51:19   Look at Apple Arcade, a wonderful idea

01:51:22   that seemed to have a decent start

01:51:24   that has seemingly been super either under-invested in

01:51:28   or at least under-promoted.

01:51:30   - It's being so successful they raised the price.

01:51:32   - Exactly.

01:51:33   (laughing)

01:51:34   Like, they would have to change a lot

01:51:37   to make big impacts in gaming.

01:51:38   They seem to be standing around twiddling their thumbs

01:51:43   expecting developers to just line up

01:51:46   and knock down the door.

01:51:47   And that's just, that's not gonna happen with gamers.

01:51:50   - And again, if you want to essentially force developers

01:51:54   to pay attention to you and go on your platform,

01:51:55   sell a bazillion more Macs.

01:51:57   Seems easy, right?

01:51:57   - Yeah, or apply money to the problem.

01:51:59   Like, you know, buy a studio.

01:52:00   Whatever it is, that's how you do that.

01:52:02   - I mean, and to be fair,

01:52:04   that seems like what they're trying to do,

01:52:05   bootstrapping this.

01:52:06   They are spending more money, more time, and more attention.

01:52:09   It's slow going, right?

01:52:11   But I just always get back to like, you know,

01:52:15   if they sold 10 times as many Macs,

01:52:17   this conversation would be so much easier for them.

01:52:19   Because it would be like they are with the iPhone.

01:52:21   We're like, no matter how annoying you are,

01:52:23   people are like, well, I gotta grit my teeth and do it

01:52:25   because look at all those iPhone customers.

01:52:26   - Yeah, exactly.

01:52:28   Anyway, so, yeah, I bought the big MacBook Pro.

01:52:31   And I decided to get the black one,

01:52:32   which is uncharacteristic of me,

01:52:34   but I've had silver now for a few generations in a row.

01:52:38   And I just kind of wanted a new change of pace color,

01:52:41   even though if it looks a lot like space gray,

01:52:45   I'm going to be disappointed by that.

01:52:47   - It doesn't match your stand.

01:52:49   - Well, the stand is wood, but it doesn't,

01:52:51   the bigger thing is it doesn't match my monitor stand

01:52:53   or my headphone, like I, yeah.

01:52:55   - It's not gonna match.

01:52:56   - But it's all the way off to the side.

01:52:57   So I don't actually look at it that much.

01:53:00   - And by the way, on this desktop laptop thing

01:53:02   and your discussion of it again,

01:53:04   I just wanna reemphasize the point that we gloss over a lot

01:53:08   when we talk about this.

01:53:10   One of the biggest advantages of your desktop laptop,

01:53:13   of you not having to,

01:53:14   like you basically having your life with you in that thing,

01:53:16   like when you go from place to place and you put it down

01:53:19   and you connect it to a monitor, there you are,

01:53:20   like you pick up right where you left off.

01:53:22   I feel like that, that huge advantage

01:53:25   is kind of a condemnation of Apple's adoption

01:53:30   of cloud storage and syncing.

01:53:32   We talked about it with the Chromebooks

01:53:33   and everything like that.

01:53:34   That is a fact of life because most things are local

01:53:38   and there is no easy solution

01:53:40   for syncing that much local storage efficiently.

01:53:42   But imagine if Apple only made Chromebooks.

01:53:45   You wouldn't be having this conversation.

01:53:46   You'd be buying Mac Studios

01:53:48   for every place where you need it to be

01:53:49   because you'd be like,

01:53:50   well, of course all my stuff is there.

01:53:51   I'm not saying that Apple should do this and it's easy.

01:53:54   Like I understand, like there are technical reasons

01:53:56   why we're not there yet.

01:53:58   - Most people don't do a whole lot

01:53:59   of their work on Chromebooks.

01:54:01   - Right, exactly.

01:54:01   Like I get it, especially with the more demanding you work,

01:54:04   the more important it is.

01:54:05   But like when I look to the future and I say,

01:54:07   this is actually a vestige of history

01:54:11   that when technology, we should be working towards

01:54:14   making it so we don't have to deal with that.

01:54:15   Because I feel like that is one of the biggest reasons

01:54:18   you use this, Rick.

01:54:18   And looking at the machine that you're buying,

01:54:20   I do think it is ridiculous.

01:54:21   Like you want a desktop, you're maxing out this laptop

01:54:24   to the extent that you're sacrificing,

01:54:25   like it's portability and battery life,

01:54:27   but you want the power.

01:54:28   Why are you doing that?

01:54:29   - You want a gaming PC, you bought a Mac Pro.

01:54:32   - I know, but I'm saying like the reason you're doing that

01:54:35   is the massive advantage of I unplug it,

01:54:37   I will go somewhere else, I plug it into a monitor,

01:54:39   there's nothing else I need to do.

01:54:41   Everything is exactly how I left it.

01:54:42   That advantage is so huge that you're willing to do this

01:54:46   because it's the best option available to you.

01:54:48   And I do look forward to a day when the availability

01:54:53   of our stuff, of even your bazillion files and Xcode

01:54:57   and the SDK and your Git repos and like just all that stuff,

01:55:00   everything, your entire computing life,

01:55:02   was as available to you everywhere as like my Gmail is.

01:55:05   We're not there yet, but I hope I live long enough to see it.

01:55:08   (upbeat music)

01:55:10   - We are brought to you this week in part by ATP members.

01:55:13   Please consider becoming an ATP member today.

01:55:17   Membership comes with all sorts of great little fun things,

01:55:19   chief of which is the ad-free version of the show.

01:55:22   That's what most people get membership for,

01:55:25   or the bootleg version of the show,

01:55:27   both of which are really fun.

01:55:28   So the ad-free version, it's just this show with no ads,

01:55:31   easy.

01:55:32   The bootleg version is the unedited live stream.

01:55:34   So there's been no editing, no moving stuff around.

01:55:37   You get all the beginning and ending kind of,

01:55:39   you know, extras and detritus that I would normally edit

01:55:44   out of the, you know, the polished show.

01:55:45   You get all of, you know, my jokes that don't land.

01:55:47   You get all of Casey swearing.

01:55:49   You get, you know, all the talk overs.

01:55:51   It's a more kind of raw version of the show

01:55:54   that a lot of people actually really prefer.

01:55:56   So that's there in the bootleg.

01:55:58   You also get occasional discounts on merchandise sales

01:56:01   and occasional other little perks,

01:56:02   but those are the big ones.

01:56:03   You get the ad-free feed and the bootleg feed.

01:56:06   You also get member specials.

01:56:08   We've been ramping this up recently.

01:56:10   We get extra exclusive member content,

01:56:12   entire kind of bonus episodes.

01:56:14   And sometimes they take fun different directions.

01:56:16   Sometimes they're tech, sometimes they're non-tech.

01:56:18   It's a lot of fun.

01:56:19   So go to ATP.fm/join to learn more.

01:56:24   Plans start at just eight bucks a month.

01:56:26   There's also annual plans.

01:56:27   You get a small discount if you wanna do that instead.

01:56:29   John has done a whole bunch of work on the membership system

01:56:31   recently, so there's a whole bunch of new options there

01:56:33   to check out.

01:56:34   ATP.fm/join.

01:56:36   Thank you so much to all current and future

01:56:40   and past members.

01:56:41   It's the best way to support the show.

01:56:42   It really supports us a lot.

01:56:44   So we very much appreciate all the members out there,

01:56:48   most of whom I guess aren't probably hearing this message

01:56:49   'cause they're listening to the ad-free version.

01:56:51   But anyway, thank you so much to all members.

01:56:53   And for you, if you are hearing this

01:56:54   and considering becoming a member, thank you very much.

01:56:57   ATP.fm/join.

01:56:59   Thanks so much to our members and our future members

01:57:01   and our current members and our past members

01:57:02   and all members out there.

01:57:04   Thank you.

01:57:04   (upbeat music)

01:57:07   - All right, so we should probably talk about the iMac

01:57:10   before we hang up the phone.

01:57:12   There is a new 24-inch iMac.

01:57:14   It gets the M3, not the M3 Pro, not the M3 Max.

01:57:17   No soup for you.

01:57:19   But it does have a bunch of nice features.

01:57:21   Gets Wi-Fi 6E, Bluetooth 5.3.

01:57:23   It's two and a half times faster

01:57:24   than the fastest 27-inch iMac.

01:57:26   I don't know if that includes the Pro.

01:57:27   - What's a 27-inch iMac?

01:57:29   - See this, by the way, this is one area,

01:57:32   John Turnus, so what he said, he was describing this

01:57:35   and he said, he was talking about how the 4.5K 24-inch screen

01:57:40   is quote, "The perfect size to replace both the 4K

01:57:45   "and the 5K Intel models."

01:57:48   That to me says, if you've been holding out hope

01:57:51   for a 27-inch iMac replacement,

01:57:53   you might wanna give up that dream.

01:57:54   Like maybe in the distant future that might come,

01:57:57   but that statement to me says, stop waiting.

01:58:00   - It'll come in time for me to win my bet.

01:58:03   - We'll see. - It's in the calendar.

01:58:05   - I don't even remember when that was.

01:58:06   - Yeah, you gotta look forward in the calendar.

01:58:07   It's in there.

01:58:08   - All right, so yeah, so it's two and a half times faster

01:58:11   than the fastest 27-inch,

01:58:12   four times faster than the fastest 22-inch.

01:58:15   It gets a quote, "Unmatched video conferencing experience."

01:58:18   1300 bucks, you could order it yesterday

01:58:21   and that's basically it.

01:58:23   All the colors are the same, size is the same,

01:58:25   everything's basically the same.

01:58:26   Still lightning port peripherals.

01:58:29   - Yeah, it looks a bit bummer.

01:58:30   - No USB-C for, yeah.

01:58:31   - Because reasons.

01:58:32   - I mean, so I think I talked myself

01:58:34   into feeling weirdly about these Macs in our past episodes.

01:58:39   I love the fact that they have M3.

01:58:42   This was the machine that needed to be updated the most

01:58:44   and it did, thumbs up, right?

01:58:47   But as I said, when I look at this machine,

01:58:50   I think, okay, but the thing that needed to be updated

01:58:53   the most about this is the base configs,

01:58:55   the maybe the eight gigabyte or less,

01:58:57   but the 256 gigs of storage

01:58:59   and the fact that it costs 200 bucks to go to 512

01:59:02   and 400 bucks to go to a terabyte.

01:59:04   Regular people don't use a lot of CPU,

01:59:09   but even just regular non-tech enthusiast people

01:59:14   can and do eventually use a lot of storage space.

01:59:16   It feels like, I don't know,

01:59:22   maybe this isn't the year.

01:59:23   Maybe this isn't the year for the iMac

01:59:25   to bump its base configs.

01:59:27   And it's certainly not the year for it to decrease margins

01:59:30   on the bumps to its configs.

01:59:32   But at a certain point, this thing is gonna be overdue

01:59:37   for one or both of the baseline specs to move up

01:59:40   while maintaining the same price range.

01:59:42   And honestly, I think at this point,

01:59:44   it's the SSD that is worse because 256 gig SSD

01:59:47   is going to affect people's lives

01:59:49   much more than eight gigs of RAM.

01:59:51   And so if someone was buying one of these machines

01:59:53   and I had to convince them

01:59:55   to click one of those upgrade buttons,

01:59:57   I'd be working hard to convince them to do the SSD one.

01:59:59   The fact that this gets to the M3,

02:00:01   that doesn't help with any of this.

02:00:03   Like that's why I feel like I'm slightly more disappointed

02:00:04   with this machine.

02:00:05   Like I thought the M1 is not going to be so slow

02:00:08   that people are like, oh, you're using a slow computer

02:00:10   'cause they all have SSDs, everything's nice.

02:00:12   You can do all the things you wanna do.

02:00:13   The M3 is great.

02:00:14   I endorse it as an upgrade,

02:00:15   but it doesn't fix any of that other stuff.

02:00:17   And as far as I can tell, none of the upgrade pricing,

02:00:19   none of the baseline pricing,

02:00:21   none of sort of the value proposition of this machine

02:00:23   has changed except for the fact that you get way more CPU

02:00:27   and a better wifi and connectivity and stuff like that.

02:00:29   But every other value proposition thing

02:00:31   has not changed in three years

02:00:33   in terms of like what do you get for a given amount of money

02:00:37   in terms of RAM and SSD.

02:00:39   So I really hope this machine,

02:00:41   keep it on the M3 for three years.

02:00:43   I think it'll be fine, but next year or the year after,

02:00:46   get rid of that 256 gig SSD option.

02:00:50   - I would love to see that kind of thing happen,

02:00:53   but ultimately I think the iMac seems to be,

02:00:56   you know, there isn't a huge market for this,

02:01:00   but the market that there is for it,

02:01:02   it seems to still be serving it just as well

02:01:04   as it did two years ago.

02:01:05   So they seem to be putting as much effort

02:01:08   into updating it as the market justifies,

02:01:10   and it seems to be serving it well.

02:01:11   You know, this is a market that oftentimes

02:01:13   has very low-end needs where they're kind of like terminals

02:01:17   for things in like, you know,

02:01:18   front desks of offices and stuff like that.

02:01:20   Like, so I think they're doing fine with this product,

02:01:23   and there's not much to talk about.

02:01:24   - I mean, and to that end,

02:01:26   I think the lightning on the peripherals,

02:01:27   I don't care that much about it.

02:01:28   Like, it's--

02:01:30   - I do.

02:01:31   - It's, I know this is, people think it's a shame

02:01:34   because they think this machine is gonna be around

02:01:36   for a long time, which essentially extends

02:01:38   the maximum lightning peripheral lifetime

02:01:40   out to the lifetime of this line of iMacs,

02:01:42   which could be two or three years, and I get that,

02:01:44   but from an end user perspective,

02:01:47   the fact that this uses lighting for the peripherals

02:01:49   doesn't really affect their life.

02:01:52   Like, the computer comes with the cable that does it.

02:01:54   The only things you're dealing about

02:01:55   are the keyboard and the mouse

02:01:56   that are right next to the computer all the time,

02:01:58   and it has the cable, and so it's not the same

02:02:00   as phones not being updated or like other, you know,

02:02:03   other things, it seems silly, but I think it's fine.

02:02:08   - No, I think most of the reaction about,

02:02:10   oh God, it still has lightning ports on the peripherals,

02:02:13   is not because we all wanted to buy iMacs

02:02:16   and we're upset about that cable.

02:02:18   It's that we all wanna buy new peripherals that have USB-C,

02:02:21   and we were curious-- - You're not gonna buy

02:02:22   these colored iMac ones anyway, right?

02:02:24   Like, all the iMac peripherals are color matched

02:02:25   to the iMac, so. - Yeah, but they come in gray.

02:02:28   - Yeah, there's a silver one, I guess.

02:02:29   - And then also, like, you know, everyone kinda wants,

02:02:31   like, hey, wouldn't it be nice if they updated the mouse,

02:02:33   maybe, to be less bad? - Updated it to what?

02:02:36   Be careful what you wish for.

02:02:37   I don't even use that mouse.

02:02:38   It is, but like, you do not want them to--

02:02:40   - That's what I was thinking.

02:02:42   Like, I was a little afraid going into the event.

02:02:43   Like, the Apple Magic Mouse is, I think, the oldest Apple

02:02:48   product that I use.

02:02:49   It is my mouse, I love it.

02:02:50   I would change the charging situation, but otherwise,

02:02:54   this is my favorite mouse, and this is the one

02:02:56   I use everywhere, and so, like, I was a little afraid,

02:02:58   like, what if they ruined my mouse?

02:03:00   But they didn't touch it, so I guess that's better

02:03:03   than ruining it.

02:03:04   - How old is it?

02:03:05   We should look that up.

02:03:05   What's your guess, is it eight years old?

02:03:07   - I think it was like 10? - 20, well, there's some

02:03:09   asterisks 'cause they revised it.

02:03:11   Like, it used to have the double-A batteries,

02:03:13   and then they later changed it to just have the lightning

02:03:15   port and the built-in rechargeable battery.

02:03:17   - I'm just talking about the overall shape,

02:03:19   like, the overall shape of this mouse.

02:03:20   - 14 years ago, October 20, 2009.

02:03:24   - Oh my God. - Yeah.

02:03:25   - I mean, I'm not complaining.

02:03:26   Like, I think if people like it and it works for them,

02:03:28   I think it is beautiful to look at.

02:03:29   Some people do like the mouse.

02:03:31   I don't think it's, you know, bad that Apple can use this.

02:03:33   I hate it, but like, whatever, you can always buy

02:03:35   another mouse, but it is interesting.

02:03:37   Like, when will they decide now is the time

02:03:39   to make a new mouse, and what will they do

02:03:43   at that point?

02:03:44   I can only imagine what a mouse made by modern Apple

02:03:47   would look like.

02:03:48   It would not look like this, that's for sure.

02:03:50   - I'm picturing, like, you sitting down at my computer,

02:03:53   like, so, you'd be sitting down to a laptop

02:03:57   with an Apple mouse and a Microsoft keyboard.

02:04:00   This is like your idea of hell.

02:04:01   - Obviously, I think I would like your keyboard better

02:04:03   than the default Mac one that doesn't have

02:04:05   the inverted T arrow keys, like, the default key,

02:04:08   the default small keyboard.

02:04:09   Sitting in a desk with that keyboard,

02:04:11   I see people do it all the time, and I can't,

02:04:12   especially even programmers, like, why are you doing this

02:04:14   to yourself, but your Microsoft one is weird,

02:04:16   but at least it has arrow keys.

02:04:18   Did you just send me a tooth that was reminding me

02:04:21   that the small keyboard has arrow keys?

02:04:23   Well, stop, because I know that.

02:04:25   They're just not as conveniently placed

02:04:26   as they are on the extended keyboard.

02:04:28   That's what I don't like, and they're half size.

02:04:31   - All right, thanks to our sponsors this week,

02:04:33   Trade Coffee and Collide, and thank you especially

02:04:36   to our members who support us directly.

02:04:38   You can join us at atp.fm/join,

02:04:41   and we will talk to you next week.

02:04:43   ♪ Now the show is over ♪

02:04:48   ♪ They didn't even mean to begin ♪

02:04:51   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

02:04:53   ♪ Oh, it was accidental ♪

02:04:56   ♪ John didn't do any research ♪

02:04:58   ♪ Marco and Casey wouldn't let him ♪

02:05:01   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

02:05:04   ♪ Oh, it was accidental ♪

02:05:07   ♪ And you can find the show notes at atp.fm ♪

02:05:12   ♪ And if you're into Twitter ♪

02:05:15   ♪ You can follow them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S ♪

02:05:20   ♪ So that's Casey, Liz, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M ♪

02:05:25   ♪ N-T, Marco, R, M-N-S-I-R-A-C ♪

02:05:30   ♪ U-S-A, Syracuse ♪

02:05:33   ♪ It's accidental ♪

02:05:36   ♪ They didn't mean to accidental ♪

02:05:39   ♪ Accidental ♪

02:05:41   ♪ Tech podcast ♪

02:05:43   ♪ So long ♪

02:05:45   - So I know Casey, so Casey wants to get to lunch

02:05:48   and I know that 'cause I had the wonderful idea

02:05:51   we should all pack box lunches for ourselves

02:05:54   for this recording.

02:05:55   - That was a good idea.

02:05:56   I did not do it though.

02:05:57   - How much time do you think we have

02:05:58   to pack a box lunch?

02:06:00   - Yeah, unfortunately that idea did not get traction

02:06:02   in our Slack channel.

02:06:04   - No, I was here for it.

02:06:05   I just didn't do it 'cause it seemed like

02:06:08   that wasn't actually a thing.

02:06:09   - I think what would be in your box lunch

02:06:11   if we had gotten our acts together and actually made them,

02:06:13   what would be in your box lunches?

02:06:15   - Is this a box lunch for the purpose

02:06:17   of eating while podcasting?

02:06:19   Like am I making something that I can eat

02:06:21   in front of the computer?

02:06:22   - Yeah, that's part of the logistical challenge

02:06:23   of one of the reasons I didn't push it harder

02:06:25   than just saying wouldn't this be a fun idea?

02:06:27   Nobody actually wants to hear us eat lunch on a podcast.

02:06:30   - No.

02:06:31   - But if you were to pack a box lunch

02:06:34   for eating right now, as we are still recording

02:06:37   in front of the three hours, what would it be?

02:06:40   - That's a good question.

02:06:41   So yesterday I was volunteering at Declan's school

02:06:43   and I did bring a lunch and I don't eat sandwiches

02:06:47   very often, typically for lunch I'll make myself a salad.

02:06:51   But on occasion I will have a sandwich

02:06:53   and in this particular case I had a ham and cheese sandwich

02:06:56   yesterday and that would probably be what I would do

02:06:59   in this sort of scenario as well.

02:07:01   A salad is, assuming you don't absolutely drown it

02:07:04   in your dressing, a salad is in many cases

02:07:06   a lot more healthy and that's what I typically eat.

02:07:08   - That was my question, in your salad thing.

02:07:11   What is in your, when you make yourself a salad,

02:07:13   what's in it?

02:07:14   - So it's a lettuce base.

02:07:15   I would use spinach which is arguably more nutritious,

02:07:18   healthier, et cetera, but I developed a spinach allergy

02:07:21   a few years ago that I haven't been brave enough to test

02:07:24   to see if it was like a couple a year thing

02:07:26   or if it was a forever more thing.

02:07:29   Anyway, so I use whatever the tall lettuce is,

02:07:32   not the circular lettuce, the tall one.

02:07:34   - The tall lettuce, not the circular one.

02:07:36   - What?

02:07:37   - Food aficionado Casey Liss identifies Romaine lettuce

02:07:40   by its height.

02:07:41   - Does it have a roughly edge or a flat edge?

02:07:43   - It's Romaine, he's based on it.

02:07:46   - It's Romaine, I think that's right.

02:07:47   I think that's right.

02:07:48   - So tall lettuce.

02:07:49   - Anyways, so that's the base and then I,

02:07:54   you know, it's just the three of us here, right?

02:07:56   So I can be honest.

02:07:58   - Do you put chocolate chips in it, just tell us.

02:07:59   - No, they'll be the shells and cheese just lump on top.

02:08:01   - If only, if only.

02:08:02   No, the thing that's going to get me--

02:08:04   - Wait, can I guess, is it gonna have bacon bits in it?

02:08:07   - Oh, I love bacon bits but now I don't.

02:08:09   I typically do not.

02:08:10   No, the thing that's gonna get me

02:08:12   to move to California one day,

02:08:14   it's not the weather which is perfect in most places.

02:08:18   It's not that the cities at least

02:08:20   are super liberal and whatnot.

02:08:22   It's not the fact that it's going to fall off

02:08:24   the continental United States one day.

02:08:26   It's not the fact that it's hilariously overpriced.

02:08:28   It's the avocados 'cause I have become obsessed

02:08:32   with avocados recently and so I probably put

02:08:34   an unhealthy amount of avocado in.

02:08:37   Typically, the protein will be either some shrimp

02:08:40   that I'll just quickly cook with not a lot on it

02:08:43   or occasionally some like chicken.

02:08:46   You know, we'll oftentimes get a chicken from Costco

02:08:48   and strip the skin off and use that.

02:08:52   What else do I put in there?

02:08:53   Chickpeas sometimes, onion, what else?

02:08:57   I'm trying to think.

02:08:58   - When you say onion, you mean like red onion,

02:09:00   raw red onions you cut up?

02:09:01   - Yeah, raw or red or white but always raw.

02:09:04   I don't typically like saute it or anything like that.

02:09:07   - This is quite a mishmash you've got going here

02:09:08   but let's get to the--

02:09:09   - This is a complicated arrangement too.

02:09:11   - No, it takes me a while.

02:09:12   Yeah, it takes me a while every day.

02:09:13   - Let's get to the big finish though.

02:09:15   What dressing are you putting on this?

02:09:17   - Oh, that's what you're aiming for.

02:09:18   We talked about this once before.

02:09:20   It depends how health conscious I'm feeling at the moment.

02:09:22   I try not to use a lot regardless.

02:09:24   But you know, I think we had this very conversation

02:09:27   on the show at some point semi recently.

02:09:29   But Ken's, what is it, low fat or locale,

02:09:33   Thousand Island is so good.

02:09:35   And that's my fat free, no it's not the fat free

02:09:37   I don't think.

02:09:39   I don't know, I'll have to look it up.

02:09:40   I forget.

02:09:41   - That's better than I thought it would be.

02:09:42   I mean, I'm not sure culinarily if it holds together

02:09:44   with all those ingredients you just described

02:09:46   but health wise, it seems like you're getting

02:09:48   a lot of different food groups in there.

02:09:49   - Yeah, and I got, usually I'll use cherry tomatoes.

02:09:51   There's different colors.

02:09:53   I don't put on like, you know, tortilla chips or anything.

02:09:58   Or anything like that.

02:09:59   - Yeah, it's low carb so far, right?

02:10:00   No croutons.

02:10:01   - Yeah, I did do croutons for a long time

02:10:03   but I've weeded that out of my diet

02:10:05   even though I love them.

02:10:06   - So you replaced it with avocado.

02:10:07   - Yeah, pretty much, yeah, it's true.

02:10:09   - I've replaced all of my carbs with tons of fat.

02:10:11   - Yeah.

02:10:12   - Well, you know, you make your choices, right?

02:10:15   But anyways, no, I'm trying to think what else.

02:10:18   'Cause I used to make much unhealthier salads

02:10:20   and I've been doing better.

02:10:21   Oh, carrots, I always include carrots.

02:10:22   I love carrots.

02:10:23   - So you wouldn't do that as your box lunch

02:10:24   'cause I guess it's too much stuff.

02:10:26   It's too messy and it's too long prep time.

02:10:28   - Well, also you have some temperature contrast

02:10:30   going on in there that would not age well in a box lunch.

02:10:32   Like your hot cooked proteins.

02:10:35   - Yeah, no, that'd make it perfect for WWDC.

02:10:37   - Yeah, right?

02:10:38   (both laughing)

02:10:40   - Yeah, it's a Ken's light, real time follow up.

02:10:41   Ken's light thousand island.

02:10:43   So I'm pretty sure what my favorite is.

02:10:46   - I'm kind of surprised you don't go ranch.

02:10:47   Ranch would be within your character,

02:10:49   within your Americana processed food, Velveeta shells

02:10:52   and sheaves character would be ranch.

02:10:54   - I like ranch and Ken's, if memory serves,

02:10:57   makes a pretty decent light ranch as well.

02:10:59   There's a vinaigrette, a balsamic vinaigrette

02:11:01   that I've used periodically.

02:11:02   I also like a Caesar dressing quite a bit,

02:11:04   although that tends to be very unhealthy

02:11:06   if you're not careful.

02:11:08   - Look at any dressing.

02:11:09   They're all-- - Oh, that's also true.

02:11:10   - They're all unhealthy, like comically so.

02:11:12   - Yeah, but I was talking to a couple of friends of mine

02:11:14   that I meet for lunch like once a month

02:11:16   and we were discussing our routine lunches

02:11:19   and I was describing the salad the same way

02:11:21   and they were like, "My God, that must take you forever."

02:11:22   And it takes, I don't know, maybe 10, 15 minutes

02:11:25   on an average day, it's not that bad.

02:11:26   And I'm not too fussy about chopping the ingredients

02:11:29   in a particular way or anything like that.

02:11:30   But that's my typical salad.

02:11:32   I don't know how we, this is a show of tangents, but--

02:11:34   - Actually, no, sorry, before we get into salad,

02:11:37   speaking of chopping, how do you address the lettuce?

02:11:41   Do you cut it up into pieces?

02:11:42   Do you tear it?

02:11:43   What is your lettuce size target for salad?

02:11:46   - So it used to be that I would chop it up

02:11:51   because I really, I have an unreasonable,

02:11:56   unnatural distaste, well, that's a poor choice of words

02:12:00   given we're talking about food,

02:12:01   but I really don't like when the backbone

02:12:04   of the romaine leaves.

02:12:06   (laughing)

02:12:07   - More very precise culinary terms, yes, we know what you mean.

02:12:10   - The spine.

02:12:10   - So I like to split the backbone such that--

02:12:14   - That's the best part.

02:12:15   People love that crunch, yeah, okay.

02:12:17   - No, I like the crunch, but I don't like when I have this

02:12:19   like four inch wide piece of lettuce

02:12:21   with the backbone right in the middle.

02:12:23   It's hard to get it in your mouth.

02:12:24   - Well, that's got to be my question,

02:12:25   is that you're cutting it into things that are four inches.

02:12:26   - No, that's what you stab with the fork.

02:12:28   - Well, no, but are they four inches wide?

02:12:30   Like what is your maximum dimension

02:12:32   you're willing to accept in lettuce piece?

02:12:34   - Right, so what I used to do for a long time,

02:12:36   I was fussy about it, and I would cut straight down

02:12:38   the backbone, and then I would just chop it up

02:12:41   into, I don't know, an inch or two per bit.

02:12:45   - Basically squares or rectangles.

02:12:46   - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

02:12:47   - Per side.

02:12:48   - Yeah, exactly, and then Aaron eventually was like,

02:12:51   what are you doing?

02:12:52   Just tear the damn thing.

02:12:53   And I was like, yeah, and then eventually I got to the point

02:12:55   of what am I doing, I should just tear the damn thing.

02:12:57   And so that's what I do, and I try to tear

02:13:00   off of the backbone, such as the backbone is still there.

02:13:03   It's not like I'm throwing the backbone away.

02:13:04   It's just that it's split between two different bites.

02:13:07   - You gotta stop calling it the backbone.

02:13:08   - What is it called?

02:13:09   What is it, the spine?

02:13:10   I don't know. - The stem maybe?

02:13:11   I feel like you're going against the grain here.

02:13:13   - Definitely not a backbone.

02:13:14   It's not a vertebrate.

02:13:15   - Well, no crap.

02:13:17   I just didn't know what else to call it.

02:13:18   - No, the best way, in my opinion, the best way

02:13:20   to cut a romaine heart, which is what I assume

02:13:23   you're actually using, being that it's the tall lettuce.

02:13:24   - The tall lettuce.

02:13:26   - Yeah, is if you stand it on its end upwards,

02:13:30   you're cutting it in the horizontal axis

02:13:33   in that orientation. - Right, right, right.

02:13:34   - And cut it at one inch intervals, and that way

02:13:37   every strip contains two or three inches of leaf,

02:13:42   and then the spine in the middle.

02:13:44   - In the middle, yeah.

02:13:45   - And then that you can stab with the fork,

02:13:47   and so that way you're not squishing the soft parts

02:13:50   of the fork and not being able to pick it up.

02:13:51   You pick it up really easily, you get that nice crunch,

02:13:54   you don't have to throw away any part of it,

02:13:55   and that's how the best Caesar salads are always chopped.

02:13:59   - Yeah, he's being saved in his cutting by the fact

02:14:02   that romaine lettuce, the leaves aren't that wide,

02:14:05   so he doesn't even have to cut along that dimension

02:14:06   if he doesn't want to, but his allergy to the spine,

02:14:10   as we call it, is causing him to mess up his romaine.

02:14:13   Anyway, now we all know more than we ever need to know

02:14:16   about your salad, which is not what you would pack

02:14:18   for your bok choy.

02:14:19   - No, oh, and I also had bean sprouts, or I think,

02:14:22   what are they, broccoli sprouts, bean sprouts,

02:14:23   little sprout things.

02:14:24   I used to hate those, but over time I got into--

02:14:27   - The little white wormy things?

02:14:29   - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

02:14:29   - Yeah, they're great for food safety, too.

02:14:30   - Bean sprouts, yeah.

02:14:31   - Yeah, oh, that's true.

02:14:33   They're little spermies, but anyways,

02:14:35   but for bok choy, I'd probably pack like a sandwich,

02:14:37   either a peanut butter and jelly or ham and cheese

02:14:39   or something like that, just to make it easier.

02:14:42   - See, if I'm packing a boxed lunch for consumption

02:14:45   on a podcast, I would go for things that are very dense

02:14:50   that I could eat fairly quickly and not need a bunch

02:14:53   of accessories, like maybe too many drinks or silverware.

02:14:56   So I think I would go a banana and some cheese cubes.

02:15:01   Nice and simple, it covers some of the basics,

02:15:04   will keep me full for a while until the show's over,

02:15:07   but it doesn't require a big ordeal or special tools to eat,

02:15:11   and I can eat it somewhat quietly.

02:15:13   - You know, I actually meant to bring up,

02:15:15   and now I wish I had, 'cause I'm starting to get hangry,

02:15:18   I had meant to bring up, I have, is it Archer Farms?

02:15:22   No, I don't think it's Archer Farms.

02:15:23   There's some beef jerky vendor, whatever,

02:15:28   that makes just these absolutely delicious teriyaki,

02:15:31   I call them beef sticks, I think it's actually jerky,

02:15:33   strictly speaking, but anyways, and I meant to bring one

02:15:36   of those up as like a holdover, a lot of protein,

02:15:38   it'll hold me over until after we're done recording,

02:15:41   and I accidentally forgot to bring one up,

02:15:42   so now I'm hangry.

02:15:43   - All right, Jon, what's in your box lunch?

02:15:45   - I would never eat on a podcast, so I don't like

02:15:46   the idea of the premise of this whole thing.

02:15:49   - I don't even like laptops.

02:15:50   (laughing)

02:15:51   - For any box lunch thing, though,

02:15:53   like I think portability is key, so I would probably go

02:15:56   with the sandwich, the food invented for its portability,

02:15:58   rather than like the fruit and nuts type route,

02:16:03   although I did think about yogurt,

02:16:04   because you can eat that silently or more silently anyway,

02:16:06   and I do like yogurt for lunch sometimes,

02:16:08   but no, I'd probably go with the sandwich,

02:16:10   and like there are many, many unhealthy sandwiches

02:16:14   filled with lunch meat that I would love to eat,

02:16:15   but we tend not to have it in the house,

02:16:16   because if we have it in the house, I will eat it,

02:16:18   and it's not good for you, so what we usually have

02:16:21   in the house, and what I usually go to,

02:16:22   in case you already mentioned it,

02:16:23   I'm a peanut butter and jelly guy,

02:16:25   I like peanut butter and jelly, and my move

02:16:26   with the peanut butter and jelly is I often make it

02:16:28   on toast, because I think sometimes that improves it.

02:16:31   - Huh.

02:16:32   - So peanut butter and jelly on toast, it's not great

02:16:34   for a podcast, because it's a little bit crunchy

02:16:36   and a little bit crumbly.

02:16:37   - Yeah, I would destroy my office,

02:16:39   like it would be covered in crumbs, like.

02:16:41   - Yeah, no, it is a good portable box lunch,

02:16:43   so if I set aside the idea that you're saying

02:16:44   we're gonna bring this to a podcast thing,

02:16:45   a sandwich of some kind would work,

02:16:47   I mean I wouldn't do toast probably,

02:16:48   if I actually, if you said you have to eat it

02:16:50   when you're on the air, I would not toast it,

02:16:52   I would have a softer bread or whatever,

02:16:53   but yeah, peanut butter and jelly is a good meal,

02:16:55   and then maybe some, a little side snack,

02:16:58   again, this is not great for podcasting,

02:17:00   but I have been on Nut Kick lately,

02:17:01   trying to find inexpensive and yummy nuts,

02:17:04   they're good, and I would probably throw them in

02:17:06   as my side snack.

02:17:08   - I found it, real time follow up again,

02:17:10   Wenzel's Farm teriyaki sticks, I don't think you can get

02:17:14   these on Amazon, which has been a point of contention

02:17:15   in the family, 'cause they're a pain in the butt to order,

02:17:17   I forget where we source these,

02:17:19   because we get like a box and they last friggin' forever,

02:17:22   but the teriyaki beef sticks are super duper tasty,

02:17:25   I really, really like these.

02:17:27   - They look like dog treats.

02:17:28   - They do, they absolutely do.

02:17:29   - Like all jerky does, yeah.

02:17:31   - Dog treats for people.

02:17:33   (beeping)