Upgrade

00:00:00 ◼   ► [Music]

00:00:08 ◼   ► From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 481 for October 16th, 2023.

00:00:16 ◼   ► Today's show is brought to you by Electric, ZocDoc, DeleteMe, and Notion.

00:00:20 ◼   ► My name is Mike Hurley, and I have the pleasure of being joined by Jason Sunell. Hello, Jason.

00:00:25 ◼   ► Hello, Michael Hurley. It's a new week. It is good to hear you.

00:00:29 ◼   ► It is a new week. New Upgrade, new week, everybody.

00:00:32 ◼   ► We get it started. Let's get it started now. Let's get it started in here.

00:00:35 ◼   ► It's time to upgrade your week with us.

00:00:38 ◼   ► Every week is upgraded by having Upgrade be in it.

00:00:44 ◼   ► I have a Snell Talk question from Mark.

00:00:46 ◼   ► He says, "Of all of the recent talk about the fine woven iPhone cases,

00:00:50 ◼   ► some people mention that the case comes into contact with their keys, and it scratches the case.

00:00:56 ◼   ► Do you keep your keys in the same pocket of your phone?"

00:01:00 ◼   ► Um...

00:01:03 ◼   ► Two part answer here.

00:01:05 ◼   ► When I carried keys back in the before time,

00:01:12 ◼   ► I did not keep them with my phone because it will scratch the screen.

00:01:16 ◼   ► And you're a monster if you put your keys or any other scratchy thing in the pocket with your phone.

00:01:22 ◼   ► You can't do it. Don't do it.

00:01:23 ◼   ► Phone pocket is just all it is. Phone pocket.

00:01:27 ◼   ► Phone pocket.

00:01:28 ◼   ► You could put something soft in there if you really wanted to, but you probably shouldn't.

00:01:31 ◼   ► No. It's the same as when you put your phone in a bag.

00:01:33 ◼   ► It goes in its own pocket with nothing else in it.

00:01:36 ◼   ► Ah, yes.

00:01:37 ◼   ► That's the way love.

00:01:39 ◼   ► But the truth is I don't carry keys anymore.

00:01:42 ◼   ► I have, just as I no longer, several years ago, switched to the I don't carry cash,

00:01:49 ◼   ► which the Apple Wallet has been great for,

00:01:51 ◼   ► because now I just have a little magnetic thing with three cards in it on the back of my phone, and that's it.

00:01:56 ◼   ► You have a fine woven one of those, don't you?

00:01:59 ◼   ► There is one in my house.

00:02:02 ◼   ► I am still...

00:02:04 ◼   ► Actually, I had that moment the other day where I was looking down at my brand new iPhone 15 Pro

00:02:11 ◼   ► and the leather case on the back, and I was like, "Forbidden.

00:02:16 ◼   ► You're not supposed to know about this iPhone 15.

00:02:19 ◼   ► We used to make things out of leather."

00:02:21 ◼   ► (laughs)

00:02:23 ◼   ► But don't tell it.

00:02:24 ◼   ► Don't tell it what it is.

00:02:26 ◼   ► It thinks it's fine woven, I'm sure.

00:02:28 ◼   ► I'm sure it thinks that.

00:02:29 ◼   ► Anyway, so I did that.

00:02:31 ◼   ► I don't carry a wallet.

00:02:34 ◼   ► I don't carry cash.

00:02:35 ◼   ► And I've managed to get to the point where I don't need to carry keys,

00:02:39 ◼   ► because there are, you know, I've got...

00:02:44 ◼   ► If I leave the house and have to drive a car,

00:02:49 ◼   ► there is a key hanging on a little hook by the door,

00:02:54 ◼   ► and then I will take that, and I will...

00:02:58 ◼   ► I suppose it may end up in a pocket at some point, right?

00:03:01 ◼   ► I have to put it in a pocket at some point.

00:03:03 ◼   ► It will be the non-phone pocket.

00:03:06 ◼   ► But it's...

00:03:07 ◼   ► That's like, my key usage is real low at this point.

00:03:11 ◼   ► Like, I used to have a key ring with keys on it.

00:03:15 ◼   ► Our front door doesn't need a key anymore.

00:03:17 ◼   ► Like, I just...

00:03:19 ◼   ► I don't have keys anymore, which is great.

00:03:23 ◼   ► I love it, because it furthers my,

00:03:25 ◼   ► I guess what we discovered

00:03:26 ◼   ► when I was going through that therapy session with Steven,

00:03:28 ◼   ► my apparently minimalist approach to life,

00:03:31 ◼   ► which is, you know, I'm reducing clutter in a lot of areas,

00:03:35 ◼   ► and then focusing all my clutter on podcast t-shirts.

00:03:38 ◼   ► Makes sense.

00:03:39 ◼   ► Who wouldn't want to do it?

00:03:40 ◼   ► That's where I'm not a minimalist,

00:03:42 ◼   ► to the point where I now have two drawers of my dresser

00:03:44 ◼   ► full of t-shirts,

00:03:45 ◼   ► and I have a drawer out here in the garage

00:03:48 ◼   ► of other t-shirts that I rotate in, because...

00:03:50 ◼   ► - Do you mean t-shirts, like the wonderful wares available

00:03:53 ◼   ► at upgradeyourwardrobe.com for like one more day,

00:03:57 ◼   ► if you're listening to this,

00:03:57 ◼   ► but then we also have the Undermind t-shirts

00:03:59 ◼   ► that are always available?

00:04:01 ◼   ► - Well, what I was going to say is,

00:04:02 ◼   ► if you'd like to be like me and be a t-shirt maximalist,

00:04:05 ◼   ► a podcast t-shirt maximalist, upgradeyourwardrobe.com.

00:04:08 ◼   ► Right now, for some, always for others.

00:04:12 ◼   ► But if you're with a hoodie, now, right now.

00:04:14 ◼   ► - Thank you to Mark for sending in that question.

00:04:19 ◼   ► If you would like to help us open a future episode

00:04:21 ◼   ► of the show, just go to upgradefeedback.com

00:04:25 ◼   ► and send in your own Snow Talk question.

00:04:28 ◼   ► We have a variety of follow-up today, Jason Snow.

00:04:31 ◼   ► There's a bit of a grab bag of follow-up here.

00:04:34 ◼   ► First, it says, "Jason went to a concert last week

00:04:37 ◼   ► "and used AirPods Pro as earplugs.

00:04:39 ◼   ► "I think you, along with about 50% of the people

00:04:43 ◼   ► "I follow on Instagram, went to see Death Cab for Cutie

00:04:46 ◼   ► "this weekend in one of the various places

00:04:48 ◼   ► "that they were playing."

00:04:49 ◼   ► - Yep, I saw them at the Greek Theater

00:04:51 ◼   ► in Berkeley on Wednesday.

00:04:53 ◼   ► Fantastic, just fantastic.

00:04:56 ◼   ► I've been to, I think, four different shows now

00:05:00 ◼   ► where a band has played their album.

00:05:03 ◼   ► This is a thing now, right?

00:05:05 ◼   ► - Yep, classic album. - Where a band just plays

00:05:06 ◼   ► an album front to back.

00:05:10 ◼   ► And I have two thoughts about this.

00:05:12 ◼   ► One is everybody stop.

00:05:16 ◼   ► Death Cab for Cutie and the Postal Service did it.

00:05:17 ◼   ► It's not gonna get much better than that, so stop.

00:05:20 ◼   ► - Oh, interesting. - Because otherwise,

00:05:23 ◼   ► some of the other concerts I've been to,

00:05:25 ◼   ► there was one where the realization partway through was,

00:05:29 ◼   ► oh, I skip a lot of tracks on this album.

00:05:31 ◼   ► It's a classic album with a lot of great hits,

00:05:33 ◼   ► but there's also a lot of songs that aren't very good.

00:05:35 ◼   ► And I wondered if the band thought that too,

00:05:37 ◼   ► but they said they would play it, so they played it all.

00:05:40 ◼   ► And then I had another one where it was almost like

00:05:42 ◼   ► the artist had been held hostage by his bad decision

00:05:45 ◼   ► that was suggested by his manager.

00:05:47 ◼   ► And you could tell, he'd be like,

00:05:48 ◼   ► "Oh yeah, my manager suggested

00:05:49 ◼   ► "that I play this whole album."

00:05:50 ◼   ► And then later in the show, he's like,

00:05:52 ◼   ► "Okay guys, we gotta get through this."

00:05:54 ◼   ► And I realized, oh no. - Oh no.

00:05:56 ◼   ► - He also has decided that this is not a great show

00:05:59 ◼   ► playing an album straight through.

00:06:00 ◼   ► That said, I've also been to a good album show before.

00:06:03 ◼   ► And then this one, which was great,

00:06:06 ◼   ► legitimately just great.

00:06:07 ◼   ► It was "Transatlanticism" and "Give Up."

00:06:10 ◼   ► And it was wonderful.

00:06:12 ◼   ► And I didn't, I thought, what am I gonna do for earplugs?

00:06:16 ◼   ► I have in the past taken literally my in-ear monitors

00:06:21 ◼   ► and put them in my ears without just, you know,

00:06:25 ◼   ► not plugged in.

00:06:26 ◼   ► I thought, you know, AirPods, let's try the AirPods Pro.

00:06:29 ◼   ► Let's see how those work.

00:06:30 ◼   ► And it's funny 'cause then I listened to Marco

00:06:33 ◼   ► talk about this on ATP and I was like,

00:06:34 ◼   ► "Ah, Marco, did you wait for the week

00:06:36 ◼   ► "that I actually got to try this out

00:06:38 ◼   ► "and then talk about your experience at a Phish concert?"

00:06:40 ◼   ► Although he tried it in an iOS 16 era.

00:06:43 ◼   ► So I got to try out adaptive transparency as well.

00:06:46 ◼   ► I'm here to report that for my money,

00:06:48 ◼   ► transparency mode is the best mode.

00:06:50 ◼   ► With the reduced loud sounds turned on,

00:06:54 ◼   ► it sounds really good without blowing out your eardrums.

00:06:58 ◼   ► Adaptive transparency, it's trying to filter out

00:07:02 ◼   ► certain kinds of sounds, it sounds weird.

00:07:04 ◼   ► - I don't think that would be good for a concert,

00:07:06 ◼   ► I don't think.

00:07:07 ◼   ► - No, and noise canceling's worse.

00:07:09 ◼   ► Noise canceling is like, it's like what it's filtering

00:07:12 ◼   ► and what it's not, it's a very distorted, strange view

00:07:14 ◼   ► of what's going on in the outside world.

00:07:16 ◼   ► But I had pretty good luck with transparency mode.

00:07:19 ◼   ► It sounded pretty good.

00:07:20 ◼   ► I did not bring standard earplugs like Marco did

00:07:24 ◼   ► to compare it to, but I was actually pretty happy with that.

00:07:27 ◼   ► And the bottom line is if you're somewhere

00:07:29 ◼   ► and you don't have earplugs and you do have AirPods Pro

00:07:32 ◼   ► and you're worried about hearing protection,

00:07:34 ◼   ► you should use them because it will afford you

00:07:36 ◼   ► some degree of protection from it.

00:07:38 ◼   ► And the Death Cab set in particular was real loud

00:07:42 ◼   ► and I was able to put those in my ears and it was quieter.

00:07:47 ◼   ► And then I took them out for quieter songs,

00:07:50 ◼   ► but for the real loud songs, I popped them back in.

00:07:52 ◼   ► - Probably would need them for postal service.

00:07:54 ◼   ► I'm gonna guess.

00:07:55 ◼   ► - Postal service was loud, but not that loud.

00:07:58 ◼   ► And I in fact took them out for postal service

00:08:01 ◼   ► 'cause it was fine.

00:08:01 ◼   ► I had them out for the Beths and postal service,

00:08:04 ◼   ► but for Death Cab, I had to put them in

00:08:06 ◼   ► for a lot of the songs 'cause they were super loud.

00:08:08 ◼   ► - Do you not feel socially awkward

00:08:11 ◼   ► wearing AirPods at a concert?

00:08:13 ◼   ► - No.

00:08:14 ◼   ► - See, I think I would. - I don't care.

00:08:16 ◼   ► I don't know any of those people other than Lauren

00:08:18 ◼   ► and she had hers in too.

00:08:19 ◼   ► I just don't-- - You have a healthier view

00:08:21 ◼   ► of the world-- - I don't care.

00:08:21 ◼   ► - And of yourself, but I think I would feel strange

00:08:24 ◼   ► wearing AirPods at a concert.

00:08:27 ◼   ► - No, I just don't, I don't care.

00:08:29 ◼   ► I mean, ultimately I don't know any of those people.

00:08:32 ◼   ► Actually, somebody did come up to me in between the breaks.

00:08:34 ◼   ► Dan Wood of Karelia Software,

00:08:37 ◼   ► a developer and local area resident,

00:08:40 ◼   ► spotted me apparently and came over and said hi.

00:08:43 ◼   ► He was working the event.

00:08:45 ◼   ► He had a windbreaker on.

00:08:47 ◼   ► He said, "Yeah, I get to guard the VIP area

00:08:50 ◼   ► "and see a lot of free shows."

00:08:52 ◼   ► I'm like, actually that's kind of cool.

00:08:55 ◼   ► So, but yeah, it doesn't bother me.

00:08:57 ◼   ► Like again, I'm not, you can't hear anybody anyway.

00:09:01 ◼   ► So you're like, it's not gonna block you out.

00:09:03 ◼   ► It's really just that there are AirPods in your ears

00:09:04 ◼   ► and like everybody's already making decisions

00:09:06 ◼   ► about if they have headphones in their ears or not.

00:09:09 ◼   ► I just didn't care.

00:09:11 ◼   ► I just wanted to protect my ears.

00:09:12 ◼   ► And so I did.

00:09:13 ◼   ► It was fun.

00:09:15 ◼   ► - I've made a concerted effort

00:09:17 ◼   ► to use the adaptive transparency mode.

00:09:21 ◼   ► - Mm-hmm, I love it.

00:09:23 ◼   ► - Because I tried it and didn't like it.

00:09:25 ◼   ► But that was just one day.

00:09:28 ◼   ► And I was like, no.

00:09:29 ◼   ► Like they've obviously done this for a reason.

00:09:31 ◼   ► Let me try it.

00:09:32 ◼   ► So I've been using it every day since I was 17 came out.

00:09:37 ◼   ► And it's not perfect,

00:09:41 ◼   ► but I think it's good for like my daily usage.

00:09:44 ◼   ► Depending on where I am

00:09:47 ◼   ► depends on how much I notice it or not.

00:09:49 ◼   ► You know, like when I'm in louder environments,

00:09:52 ◼   ► I notice that it's happening, right?

00:09:53 ◼   ► Because it feels like I'm in noise cancellation mode.

00:09:58 ◼   ► For me at least,

00:10:01 ◼   ► noise cancellation mode has a certain feeling

00:10:03 ◼   ► and adaptive transparency mode

00:10:06 ◼   ► has a little bit of that feeling sometimes.

00:10:08 ◼   ► But I do figure like I am at least in areas there

00:10:11 ◼   ► where there is loud stuff happening.

00:10:14 ◼   ► And I've been putting it through certain tests just myself.

00:10:18 ◼   ► Like if I'm walking around

00:10:19 ◼   ► and it's filtering out traffic noise,

00:10:21 ◼   ► I'm like focusing on what's around me

00:10:22 ◼   ► and like can I hear these other things?

00:10:25 ◼   ► I would say it does a surprisingly good job for me of,

00:10:28 ◼   ► I don't feel like the world is drowned out completely,

00:10:33 ◼   ► which is what would worry me.

00:10:34 ◼   ► So I've decided I'm gonna keep it in this mode.

00:10:38 ◼   ► Like it's an interesting idea.

00:10:39 ◼   ► It's one of these things

00:10:40 ◼   ► that I think will get better with time too.

00:10:43 ◼   ► But overall, like what I would say is if you tried it

00:10:49 ◼   ► and then immediately stopped using it,

00:10:51 ◼   ► I think it might be worth a little bit of a longer try

00:10:54 ◼   ► in like different environments.

00:10:56 ◼   ► Like one of the places that I really like is like,

00:10:58 ◼   ► if I'm not listening to a podcast in my studio,

00:11:03 ◼   ► in the bathrooms they have like their hand dryers, right?

00:11:06 ◼   ► And if I'm drying my hands, it like shuts that sound out,

00:11:11 ◼   ► which I just think is pretty cool.

00:11:12 ◼   ► It's like not massive of a thing to do for my life.

00:11:17 ◼   ► But I like that it's doing that.

00:11:18 ◼   ► It's being pretty smart.

00:11:21 ◼   ► But the thing I've actually come to value more

00:11:23 ◼   ► is conversational awareness.

00:11:24 ◼   ► I know you don't like it for the reason you don't like it.

00:11:27 ◼   ► - Yes, talking to animals. - When you're talking

00:11:28 ◼   ► to your dogs.

00:11:29 ◼   ► But I don't have that problem.

00:11:30 ◼   ► And I would say it is very, very good, right?

00:11:33 ◼   ► Like I'm listening to something

00:11:35 ◼   ► and I wanna say something to my wife

00:11:37 ◼   ► or I'll go to a coffee shop and I'll make an order.

00:11:39 ◼   ► I just start talking and I know that my AirPods

00:11:42 ◼   ► are gonna take care of everything else.

00:11:44 ◼   ► It will first lower things, then it will pause it

00:11:46 ◼   ► and then it will wait and play again.

00:11:48 ◼   ► Like I think it's pretty good.

00:11:49 ◼   ► - So note to Apple, if there's anybody who works

00:11:52 ◼   ► on this team who's listening,

00:11:54 ◼   ► I'd love to be able to assign conversational awareness

00:11:57 ◼   ► on off to a gesture on the AirPods,

00:12:00 ◼   ► like left AirPod squeeze.

00:12:02 ◼   ► So I could do right AirPod squeeze

00:12:04 ◼   ► for toggling the sound modes

00:12:05 ◼   ► and left conversational awareness,

00:12:07 ◼   ► because I'm about to go on an airplane.

00:12:10 ◼   ► Conversational awareness is great on an airplane

00:12:12 ◼   ► because the flight attendant comes up to you and says,

00:12:15 ◼   ► "Do you want something to drink?"

00:12:17 ◼   ► And I used it on a plane flight a while ago

00:12:21 ◼   ► and was like, "Oh yeah, this is really nice."

00:12:23 ◼   ► And then I got home and I tried to talk to my dog

00:12:25 ◼   ► and I was like, "Oh God, I gotta..."

00:12:26 ◼   ► And you gotta go into the settings to turn it off.

00:12:27 ◼   ► It's not convenient to do so.

00:12:29 ◼   ► So I would like that.

00:12:31 ◼   ► Adaptive mode, I love it.

00:12:33 ◼   ► What I try to describe it to people is

00:12:37 ◼   ► it is adaptive transparency.

00:12:39 ◼   ► So it's like a better transparency mode.

00:12:42 ◼   ► The idea with transparency is I'm gonna pipe everything

00:12:45 ◼   ► through to you as if you're not wearing these.

00:12:47 ◼   ► And then noise cancellation is

00:12:50 ◼   ► I'm gonna try to block everything I can

00:12:52 ◼   ► so that you're in this vacuum,

00:12:53 ◼   ► which leads some people like you to feel like

00:12:56 ◼   ► a weird kind of feeling

00:12:58 ◼   ► 'cause it's that vacuum feeling, right?

00:13:02 ◼   ► And this feature is trying to split the difference

00:13:04 ◼   ► and I think it does a great job.

00:13:06 ◼   ► I don't use transparency mode anymore,

00:13:09 ◼   ► except at a rock concert where I turned it on.

00:13:12 ◼   ► But normally I toggle between adaptive and noise canceling

00:13:16 ◼   ► because adaptive, like when I'm out on a run,

00:13:20 ◼   ► adaptive works for me.

00:13:21 ◼   ► It is, I can hear everything that's going on around me,

00:13:26 ◼   ► but it's like I live near a freeway.

00:13:32 ◼   ► There is broadband freeway noise in the background,

00:13:35 ◼   ► especially on my run

00:13:36 ◼   ► when I run right up to next to the freeway.

00:13:38 ◼   ► It filters some of that stuff out,

00:13:41 ◼   ► making it easier to hear what I'm listening to,

00:13:42 ◼   ► but I can still hear the world around me.

00:13:44 ◼   ► I still know when cars are coming

00:13:46 ◼   ► and where they're coming from and all of those things,

00:13:47 ◼   ► which is really great.

00:13:49 ◼   ► In certain public spaces at an airport, something like that,

00:13:53 ◼   ► I might wanna be more aware of announcements

00:13:56 ◼   ► or something like that.

00:13:57 ◼   ► I don't wanna go full noise canceling necessarily,

00:14:00 ◼   ► but having it dampen it down a little bit is nice.

00:14:04 ◼   ► So I'm a big fan of it

00:14:05 ◼   ► and I'm using it now instead of standard transparency.

00:14:08 ◼   ► I think that's a really good feature.

00:14:09 ◼   ► Conversational awareness, yeah, I just like to turn it on

00:14:11 ◼   ► and off more quickly because there are modes when I want it

00:14:15 ◼   ► and modes when I don't.

00:14:16 ◼   ► - I had a question from Tim who wants to know

00:14:22 ◼   ► what photo slide scanning service did Jason use

00:14:26 ◼   ► for his mother-in-law's slide photos

00:14:28 ◼   ► in the 1960s as mentioned last week?

00:14:31 ◼   ► - Right, I specifically didn't mention it only

00:14:33 ◼   ► because I always am reluctant to mention something

00:14:35 ◼   ► when I literally tried it once,

00:14:37 ◼   ► everybody's results will vary

00:14:39 ◼   ► and I didn't compare it to anybody else's, right?

00:14:41 ◼   ► So all you're getting is a word of mouth like,

00:14:43 ◼   ► I tried Scan Cafe, it worked fine.

00:14:46 ◼   ► I don't know if it's better or worse

00:14:47 ◼   ► than any other service that's out there.

00:14:50 ◼   ► All I can tell you is I tried it and it worked fine.

00:14:53 ◼   ► So Scan Cafe is the answer.

00:14:54 ◼   ► - Sometimes that's all people need.

00:14:56 ◼   ► - I just wanna do that caveat.

00:14:57 ◼   ► Yeah, I know, it's just, again, it's not-

00:14:59 ◼   ► - I know what you mean.

00:15:00 ◼   ► - 'Cause it makes it sound like an endorsement

00:15:01 ◼   ► and the only thing I can endorse is I did it once

00:15:03 ◼   ► and they properly scanned the things that were in there

00:15:06 ◼   ► and now I have them.

00:15:07 ◼   ► - Yeah, you don't wanna be responsible

00:15:10 ◼   ► for someone's family photos being melted.

00:15:12 ◼   ► - I can't believe you recommended Scan Cafe

00:15:14 ◼   ► because they did a terrible thing to me

00:15:16 ◼   ► and I'm like, guys, I can't believe

00:15:19 ◼   ► you recommended Scan Cafe.

00:15:20 ◼   ► Didn't you know they're owned by vampires?

00:15:22 ◼   ► I'm like, look, I just looked on.

00:15:25 ◼   ► It was, they did the mesh.

00:15:28 ◼   ► Anyway, I didn't do that.

00:15:29 ◼   ► I looked at a bunch of sites and what their policies were

00:15:33 ◼   ► and what their prices were and tried them out

00:15:35 ◼   ► and here's what I will recommend,

00:15:38 ◼   ► just doubling back on this whole topic.

00:15:40 ◼   ► If you have stuff locked away

00:15:43 ◼   ► or you have relatives with stuff locked away,

00:15:45 ◼   ► Lauren's mom gave us these slides.

00:15:47 ◼   ► These are from her first marriage.

00:15:49 ◼   ► So she got them in the divorce basically

00:15:54 ◼   ► and yet they were from an unhappy time in her life

00:15:56 ◼   ► and they've mostly sat completely unused.

00:15:59 ◼   ► I mean, they're slide carousels.

00:16:01 ◼   ► When was the last time they pulled out

00:16:02 ◼   ► a slide carousel at all?

00:16:03 ◼   ► Probably never.

00:16:05 ◼   ► And she gave them to us

00:16:08 ◼   ► 'cause they were cleaning out the garage

00:16:09 ◼   ► and she was basically like, this is when you were a baby.

00:16:12 ◼   ► You might want these and Lauren took them

00:16:15 ◼   ► and they sat in our garage taking up lots of space.

00:16:19 ◼   ► I delayed this forever.

00:16:21 ◼   ► I could not be happier to have gone through this process,

00:16:24 ◼   ► whether you use Scan Cafe or something else.

00:16:27 ◼   ► Literally the way it worked is they sent you,

00:16:30 ◼   ► part of your price includes the shipping

00:16:33 ◼   ► which I think is a really nice touch.

00:16:35 ◼   ► So you just get air bills.

00:16:36 ◼   ► You just get things to stick on a box

00:16:38 ◼   ► and take it to, in our case, the UPS store

00:16:40 ◼   ► which is right around the corner and just hand them in.

00:16:45 ◼   ► And they do have a drop-off place in some places.

00:16:48 ◼   ► If you're afraid they'll get lost in the mail.

00:16:50 ◼   ► But for me, it was just like, no, get them out of here.

00:16:52 ◼   ► I don't want them back.

00:16:53 ◼   ► I want them gone and then in digital form

00:16:56 ◼   ► because then we can actually look at them.

00:16:58 ◼   ► And there are some amazing pictures in there

00:17:00 ◼   ► that were lost forever until they got unearthed in this way.

00:17:05 ◼   ► So I'm a real proponent of the idea

00:17:07 ◼   ► of scanning in old negatives or even prints.

00:17:11 ◼   ► It's better if you've got a backup, if those exist.

00:17:14 ◼   ► Some of them exist as prints

00:17:15 ◼   ► 'cause then you're taking a risk.

00:17:17 ◼   ► But boy, in the end, we live in an era

00:17:20 ◼   ► where if they're not in your photo library, they don't exist.

00:17:23 ◼   ► So your digital photo library.

00:17:25 ◼   ► So I was very happy to do it.

00:17:27 ◼   ► And at one point here, I'm gonna round up all of our

00:17:31 ◼   ► negatives and send them all in too from the film era.

00:17:33 ◼   ► - Matt wrote in to say,

00:17:35 ◼   ► Jason's story about user forums hits home.

00:17:38 ◼   ► I just wanted to say that not all of Adobe's forums

00:17:41 ◼   ► are the same, it varies by product.

00:17:43 ◼   ► I work on the Premiere Pro engineering team

00:17:46 ◼   ► and every new forum post goes directly

00:17:47 ◼   ► to a Slack channel that we monitor.

00:17:49 ◼   ► We can't reply to all of them.

00:17:51 ◼   ► We won't be spot one where we know we can help.

00:17:52 ◼   ► We jump in and do so.

00:17:54 ◼   ► I wanted to give Adobe the opportunity

00:17:56 ◼   ► to speak for themselves.

00:17:57 ◼   ► - I appreciate this, the idea that maybe it varies by product

00:18:00 ◼   ► and I was really, my biggest user forum complaints

00:18:03 ◼   ► were about Apple's forums.

00:18:05 ◼   ► I was looking up something else over the weekend.

00:18:07 ◼   ► I heard from somebody who said they just do a,

00:18:09 ◼   ► in Google, they do minus site colon discussions.apple.com.

00:18:13 ◼   ► Like search Apple, but not that Apple.

00:18:15 ◼   ► I don't want those.

00:18:16 ◼   ► - I mean, really these days, I think realistically

00:18:20 ◼   ► what you're looking for is the subreddits.

00:18:22 ◼   ► It seems to be where that is,

00:18:24 ◼   ► where the majority of useful stuff,

00:18:26 ◼   ► even though it's also a lot of that nonsense,

00:18:28 ◼   ► but the upvoting, downvoting system

00:18:30 ◼   ► can deal with a lot of that.

00:18:32 ◼   ► - Yeah, there are, yeah, I think you're right.

00:18:35 ◼   ► But here's the thing, this is why I did that,

00:18:37 ◼   ► I did that rant about those user forums is,

00:18:40 ◼   ► they had this veneer of being official

00:18:42 ◼   ► and they allow the actual companies to link to them

00:18:46 ◼   ► and say, oh yes, we'll use our forums.

00:18:48 ◼   ► And I don't think, like I said last week,

00:18:51 ◼   ► I actually think that that's kind of giving up

00:18:54 ◼   ► and you're right, there are better places

00:18:55 ◼   ► to discuss this stuff than the official forums.

00:18:58 ◼   ► And you end up with these people who have 20,000 points

00:19:01 ◼   ► and seem super official, but they're not,

00:19:04 ◼   ► and they're not always particularly helpful.

00:19:06 ◼   ► And I did hear from a bunch of people who were like,

00:19:08 ◼   ► oh boy, I know what you're talking about and it's terrible.

00:19:11 ◼   ► So anyway, yes.

00:19:13 ◼   ► Oh yeah, yeah, we did some,

00:19:16 ◼   ► I did a couple of rants last week.

00:19:20 ◼   ► I saw somebody complain, they're like,

00:19:22 ◼   ► oh, every week they're just ranting about stuff.

00:19:24 ◼   ► And I'm like, what?

00:19:25 ◼   ► Did it once.

00:19:27 ◼   ► Anyway, a lot of positivity about it.

00:19:28 ◼   ► - Maybe they think every episode's a rant.

00:19:31 ◼   ► - I'm not gonna do a rant every week and that's fine,

00:19:33 ◼   ► but it just worked out that way.

00:19:36 ◼   ► I don't know, I don't know why.

00:19:37 ◼   ► - I've never liked the word rant, I don't like it.

00:19:40 ◼   ► - Yeah. - I don't like it.

00:19:42 ◼   ► It's not one of my favorites.

00:19:44 ◼   ► Sonoma video reactions, so the camera,

00:19:47 ◼   ► little video reaction things that you can do with Sonoma.

00:19:51 ◼   ► They're being frowned upon by online therapy company,

00:19:53 ◼   ► Simple Practice, who now shows an interstitial warning

00:19:57 ◼   ► before calls.

00:19:58 ◼   ► So we saw this in a Slack that we're in

00:20:01 ◼   ► and it was actually from Matt Howey, who is--

00:20:04 ◼   ► - Matt Howey, he posted it on Mastodon too.

00:20:06 ◼   ► This is in my to write list for six colors,

00:20:09 ◼   ► 'cause it's such a fascinating idea of a,

00:20:12 ◼   ► I think maybe misguided or misunderstood choice by Apple

00:20:17 ◼   ► in building this feature where they didn't really think

00:20:20 ◼   ► about all of the details

00:20:22 ◼   ► when they created a new feature

00:20:23 ◼   ► and then turned it on by default

00:20:25 ◼   ► without a lot of warnings about it, yeah.

00:20:28 ◼   ► - Because Matt was mentioning it,

00:20:31 ◼   ► he posted it on Mastodon and led to The Verge

00:20:33 ◼   ► writing this up where someone was on a call

00:20:36 ◼   ► with their therapist and the therapist gave a thumbs up

00:20:39 ◼   ► and fireworks started exploding behind them

00:20:41 ◼   ► during a very awkward moment

00:20:45 ◼   ► and I wanted to just jump in and say

00:20:46 ◼   ► I had the exact same thing happen to me.

00:20:49 ◼   ► I was on a call with my therapist and all of a sudden

00:20:52 ◼   ► balloons started appearing behind me.

00:20:53 ◼   ► - Balloons!

00:20:54 ◼   ► - And he said--

00:20:55 ◼   ► - Was it the happiest therapy session ever?

00:20:57 ◼   ► - No, no.

00:20:59 ◼   ► And so I think, I don't even know what causes balloons

00:21:03 ◼   ► by the way, like I couldn't work it out.

00:21:05 ◼   ► - That is, what is that?

00:21:08 ◼   ► Two thumbs up?

00:21:10 ◼   ► Or is that fireworks?

00:21:11 ◼   ► - I think that's fireworks.

00:21:13 ◼   ► I think it might be the peace sign, I think,

00:21:15 ◼   ► or something like that.

00:21:16 ◼   ► But nevertheless, look, this is a good feature

00:21:19 ◼   ► and it is a fun feature and I will say,

00:21:21 ◼   ► someone in the discourse, isn't it relatively easy

00:21:23 ◼   ► to disable, that is really not a great,

00:21:26 ◼   ► it's just not a helpful thing to say

00:21:28 ◼   ► if you were in a therapy session and you weren't,

00:21:31 ◼   ► and me, person who cares about this stuff,

00:21:35 ◼   ► one, it's turned on automatically, right?

00:21:38 ◼   ► When you upgrade to Sonoma.

00:21:40 ◼   ► It was, I think, I've been using Sonoma for two days

00:21:43 ◼   ► and I do want it on sometimes,

00:21:45 ◼   ► so I do want the feature on 'cause I think it's funny,

00:21:48 ◼   ► but the idea that you could,

00:21:50 ◼   ► it's just not context aware, it's a good feature,

00:21:54 ◼   ► but it's just like, it's also an awkward feature.

00:21:57 ◼   ► I think it would maybe be better to have it as like,

00:22:01 ◼   ► opt in, opt out on certain apps and services,

00:22:04 ◼   ► which I don't know if it's possible to do,

00:22:07 ◼   ► but I just don't really, this is an interesting feature,

00:22:11 ◼   ► it's a cool thing that it does,

00:22:13 ◼   ► but it also is a little bit weird.

00:22:17 ◼   ► - Yeah, I think there's a reactions pop-up that happens

00:22:22 ◼   ► when you first connect a camera your first time in Sonoma,

00:22:25 ◼   ► but we also know that everybody ignores those

00:22:29 ◼   ► and clicks through them, right?

00:22:30 ◼   ► They're like, 'cause you're in the act of doing something,

00:22:32 ◼   ► get me to my thing, right?

00:22:34 ◼   ► But we also know that if you don't turn on the feature,

00:22:37 ◼   ► it is unlikely to ever be turned on

00:22:39 ◼   ► because people don't go past the defaults very often.

00:22:43 ◼   ► Also saying, yes, as you said,

00:22:44 ◼   ► saying it can be turned off is one thing,

00:22:46 ◼   ► but knowing how to turn it off is an entirely other thing.

00:22:50 ◼   ► And the moment happened regardless, right?

00:22:53 ◼   ► So I think this is interesting.

00:22:56 ◼   ► I agree that there should probably be an API

00:22:59 ◼   ► that tells Apple, 'cause remember,

00:23:00 ◼   ► this is happening in the video subsystem,

00:23:02 ◼   ► it's not happening in the apps.

00:23:03 ◼   ► The apps are just getting camera

00:23:05 ◼   ► and the camera has been processed by the system.

00:23:08 ◼   ► So giving app developers an API to control this

00:23:11 ◼   ► or turn it off so that, for example,

00:23:14 ◼   ► a teletherapy app could say, no, right?

00:23:19 ◼   ► Just no.

00:23:22 ◼   ► Or a Zoom or something like that

00:23:24 ◼   ► could have it be in Zoom preferences

00:23:26 ◼   ► where you might look for it,

00:23:27 ◼   ► even though it's actually up in the menu bar.

00:23:29 ◼   ► There are, and you could maybe set it per account

00:23:33 ◼   ► or something like that.

00:23:33 ◼   ► There's probably more controls

00:23:35 ◼   ► that could be done here about this.

00:23:37 ◼   ► I'm fascinated 'cause I imagine Apple was like,

00:23:40 ◼   ► "No, this is great, we'll just turn it on."

00:23:42 ◼   ► And wasn't thinking about people

00:23:45 ◼   ► having intense therapy sessions

00:23:46 ◼   ► and then random animations are happening in the background.

00:23:50 ◼   ► So yeah, it's fascinating.

00:23:54 ◼   ► Again, I don't think this is one of those like,

00:23:55 ◼   ► "Oh, how dare Apple?"

00:23:57 ◼   ► But it's like, this is the challenge, right?

00:23:58 ◼   ► 'Cause they want the people to use the new feature,

00:24:00 ◼   ► they think it's fun, they turned it on.

00:24:04 ◼   ► I think for reasons, I think there's a warning,

00:24:06 ◼   ► but the truth is people are still gonna be caught unawares

00:24:10 ◼   ► and some of those contexts are not great.

00:24:12 ◼   ► - Yeah, because I do want the feature.

00:24:14 ◼   ► I do want the feature, but I'm not necessarily thinking

00:24:19 ◼   ► when I'm accepting it as like in my mind during FaceTime

00:24:23 ◼   ► that when I'm having my Google Meet calls with my therapist

00:24:27 ◼   ► that I could, 'cause here's the thing,

00:24:30 ◼   ► you don't necessarily think about the fact

00:24:33 ◼   ► that you might just hold your hand to your face

00:24:36 ◼   ► and then the balloons go off,

00:24:37 ◼   ► which I think is what happened to me, right?

00:24:39 ◼   ► Because I just put my hand to my face

00:24:41 ◼   ► and then all of a sudden there were balloons

00:24:43 ◼   ► or something like that.

00:24:44 ◼   ► - I thought there were balloons for some, it was a right,

00:24:47 ◼   ► it was not now computer, not now.

00:24:49 ◼   ► Again, I think letting the individual apps

00:24:55 ◼   ► kind of make their decisions might be good.

00:24:58 ◼   ► I don't know, I'm sure they had the question of like,

00:25:02 ◼   ► the first time this is gonna be triggered,

00:25:03 ◼   ► do we not trigger it and then put up a dialogue?

00:25:05 ◼   ► And you're like, "Yeah, but you're in the middle

00:25:07 ◼   ► "of a video meeting right then."

00:25:09 ◼   ► So people aren't gonna wanna pay attention.

00:25:12 ◼   ► Do you wait until after it's triggered for the first time?

00:25:16 ◼   ► Do you wait in a delay

00:25:18 ◼   ► after they're in their first usage of video

00:25:20 ◼   ► but it's done to say, "Hey, we've got this new feature."

00:25:24 ◼   ► It's not an easy answer, but it leads to instances

00:25:28 ◼   ► like what you experienced or what Matt experienced,

00:25:30 ◼   ► which I just, yeah,

00:25:31 ◼   ► I think it's a tough decision-making chain.

00:25:34 ◼   ► - Yeah, and it's a good feature.

00:25:35 ◼   ► It's a fun thing to have.

00:25:37 ◼   ► It's just like, and I don't think this should mean

00:25:40 ◼   ► that they do or don't make it,

00:25:42 ◼   ► but this is the result of making a decision like that.

00:25:46 ◼   ► 'Cause Ramon in the Discord is like,

00:25:49 ◼   ► "It should just be limited to FaceTime."

00:25:51 ◼   ► I wouldn't want it to be the case.

00:25:52 ◼   ► I actually am happier

00:25:53 ◼   ► that they've baked it into the camera system,

00:25:56 ◼   ► but this is the downside of doing that.

00:25:59 ◼   ► - Right, and also talk about having

00:26:01 ◼   ► a challenging decision to make.

00:26:04 ◼   ► I believe that the settings on it are,

00:26:08 ◼   ► are they global or are they per app?

00:26:11 ◼   ► And that's part of the challenge too, is if you think,

00:26:14 ◼   ► I think they're per app,

00:26:16 ◼   ► which means you think you turned it off

00:26:19 ◼   ► and then you're in a different app and it does it again

00:26:21 ◼   ► and you're like, "What?"

00:26:22 ◼   ► The good thing is if it's per app,

00:26:24 ◼   ► you can have it on in FaceTime and Zoom

00:26:26 ◼   ► and not have it on in Chrome or whatever, right?

00:26:29 ◼   ► And that would work.

00:26:30 ◼   ► For the record, if you're using Sonoma,

00:26:32 ◼   ► when a webcam is in use, a blue camera icon

00:26:35 ◼   ► appears in your menu bar.

00:26:37 ◼   ► And if you click on it,

00:26:38 ◼   ► you can see all of your camera controls.

00:26:41 ◼   ► And there are lots of them.

00:26:42 ◼   ► There's some really great stuff in there.

00:26:43 ◼   ► It's a new feature.

00:26:44 ◼   ► You can like zoom and not use center stage,

00:26:47 ◼   ► but instead have it center you one time, click to center.

00:26:50 ◼   ► And then there's reactions and you can turn them off.

00:26:55 ◼   ► You can turn them off.

00:26:56 ◼   ► And if they're on and you don't wanna make the gestures,

00:26:58 ◼   ► you can also trigger them without making the gestures

00:27:01 ◼   ► from that same menu.

00:27:02 ◼   ► There's lots of stuff in there,

00:27:04 ◼   ► but you have to know that there's the blue menu

00:27:06 ◼   ► with the camera icon and that there are controls under it.

00:27:11 ◼   ► But I do think it's per app, which means that,

00:27:14 ◼   ► if you turn it off once, you haven't turned it off forever.

00:27:18 ◼   ► You've only turned it off forever for that app.

00:27:20 ◼   ► And you need to keep that in mind too.

00:27:21 ◼   ► So if you do all your family stuff on FaceTime

00:27:23 ◼   ► and that's great, and you do all your corporate stuff

00:27:25 ◼   ► on Zoom and that's not great,

00:27:26 ◼   ► you can, I believe it's per app and you can do that.

00:27:31 ◼   ► We're not on video now, so we don't know.

00:27:33 ◼   ► (upbeat music)

00:27:35 ◼   ► - Good is brought to you by Electric.

00:27:38 ◼   ► When you are leading a small business,

00:27:41 ◼   ► it's not all glitz and glamor.

00:27:42 ◼   ► In fact, sometimes it's a matter of spending hours

00:27:45 ◼   ► onboarding your employees,

00:27:46 ◼   ► which are well equipped to deal with,

00:27:48 ◼   ► but maybe you don't have all of the time to deal with it.

00:27:52 ◼   ► Because building a business takes work.

00:27:54 ◼   ► You wanna make sure that you're focused

00:27:56 ◼   ► on what's coming next for you and your employees,

00:27:59 ◼   ► so you can take your business to the next level.

00:28:01 ◼   ► And sometimes just keep it going from day to day.

00:28:03 ◼   ► Your attention is pulled in different directions.

00:28:05 ◼   ► That is the reality of leading a business.

00:28:08 ◼   ► The team over at Electric,

00:28:09 ◼   ► they know that small businesses like yours

00:28:12 ◼   ► face these challenges.

00:28:13 ◼   ► And that's why they're on hand to help

00:28:15 ◼   ► with all of the time consuming parts of your business,

00:28:18 ◼   ► like standardized device security setup

00:28:21 ◼   ► with best in class device management software.

00:28:23 ◼   ► So you're able to implement best practices across the board

00:28:26 ◼   ► and be ready to scale.

00:28:27 ◼   ► They have employee onboarding and off boarding solutions

00:28:30 ◼   ► done for you,

00:28:32 ◼   ► which will save you an average of eight hours per request.

00:28:34 ◼   ► Electric will also help you keep a single point

00:28:37 ◼   ► of visibility into your IT environment

00:28:39 ◼   ► so you can control your devices, network and applications

00:28:42 ◼   ► with simplified reporting to allow you to achieve

00:28:45 ◼   ► and maintain compliance, which is important stuff.

00:28:49 ◼   ► Electric also has proactive IT recommendations

00:28:52 ◼   ► and automated workflows to make your IT easy to manage,

00:28:55 ◼   ► even for non-technical users.

00:28:57 ◼   ► If you're hearing this and you think that your company

00:28:59 ◼   ► could use some of these services,

00:29:00 ◼   ► but you're not sure how to get started,

00:29:02 ◼   ► Electric also have experts on hand to guide you

00:29:05 ◼   ► through the process of establishing standardized IT processes

00:29:09 ◼   ► for your organization.

00:29:10 ◼   ► Maybe you don't know how to get,

00:29:13 ◼   ► I mean, honestly, I wouldn't know how to do this.

00:29:16 ◼   ► I'm a very technical user.

00:29:18 ◼   ► I don't know how would be best to set up

00:29:20 ◼   ► a standardized IT process for my business

00:29:22 ◼   ► and all the people within it and all the devices.

00:29:25 ◼   ► I don't know how to do that.

00:29:26 ◼   ► I wouldn't wanna take the time to learn

00:29:28 ◼   ► 'cause that's gonna take my attention away

00:29:29 ◼   ► from other places.

00:29:30 ◼   ► This is why Electric is great.

00:29:32 ◼   ► They do all of this hard stuff for you,

00:29:34 ◼   ► so you don't have to.

00:29:35 ◼   ► You don't have to take the time to learn it.

00:29:36 ◼   ► You don't have to take the time to manage it.

00:29:38 ◼   ► All you need to do is go to electric.ai/upgrade.

00:29:43 ◼   ► That's where you can sign up.

00:29:44 ◼   ► And for upgrade listeners,

00:29:46 ◼   ► Electric is offering a free pair of Beats Solo 3 headphones

00:29:48 ◼   ► for taking a qualified meeting.

00:29:50 ◼   ► That's electric.ai/upgrade.

00:29:53 ◼   ► Go there now to get your free pair

00:29:55 ◼   ► of Beats Solo 3 headphones today for scheduling a meeting.

00:29:58 ◼   ► A thanks to Electric for their support of this show

00:30:00 ◼   ► and Relay FM.

00:30:01 ◼   ► I have a room around up Jason Snow.

00:30:05 ◼   ► There's some spicy stuff in here today.

00:30:07 ◼   ► - Ooh, yee-haw.

00:30:09 ◼   ► - So we're gonna start off by talking about an article

00:30:14 ◼   ► written by Jeff Poo, who is,

00:30:17 ◼   ► well, there's an analyst, Jeff Poo,

00:30:18 ◼   ► who's predicting that the first Apple product

00:30:21 ◼   ► to get a micro LED display

00:30:23 ◼   ► is still going to be the Apple Watch,

00:30:25 ◼   ► but it may not be until 2025.

00:30:28 ◼   ► The reason I wanted to mention this

00:30:30 ◼   ► is 'cause I'm thinking maybe over the next few months or so,

00:30:33 ◼   ► or next 12 months, to be looking out for things

00:30:36 ◼   ► that may or may not be in that rumored Apple Watch X

00:30:40 ◼   ► that Mark Gorman was talking about.

00:30:42 ◼   ► And one of the things that we were wondering

00:30:44 ◼   ► is if it was going to get this new display technology

00:30:47 ◼   ► and it looks like, no, that it would miss that.

00:30:50 ◼   ► And what I wanted to ask you is,

00:30:51 ◼   ► do you think that a new display,

00:30:53 ◼   ► some kind of micro LED display,

00:30:55 ◼   ► which would be better clarity, better color,

00:31:00 ◼   ► and probably a better battery,

00:31:02 ◼   ► do you think we would see this come to the Apple Watch Ultra

00:31:06 ◼   ► or the regular Apple Watch first?

00:31:08 ◼   ► What do you think makes the most sense?

00:31:10 ◼   ► - I don't know.

00:31:13 ◼   ► I mean, it depends on a lot of things.

00:31:14 ◼   ► It depends on availability.

00:31:15 ◼   ► It depends on how much it costs, if it's expensive.

00:31:18 ◼   ► Ultra seems to be a great place to introduce these features

00:31:22 ◼   ► 'cause it's more expensive, right?

00:31:24 ◼   ► Unless they've got a fancy,

00:31:26 ◼   ► the Apple Watch X 10 whatever rumor is interesting

00:31:30 ◼   ► because the idea there is there's like

00:31:32 ◼   ► a next gen Apple Watch coming

00:31:33 ◼   ► and would they do it like the iPhone 10

00:31:35 ◼   ► where they'd keep the series around,

00:31:36 ◼   ► but then they'd have this new watch

00:31:38 ◼   ► that was like the future watch and it was expensive.

00:31:41 ◼   ► And that's different from the Ultra, I guess.

00:31:44 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:31:45 ◼   ► I guess.

00:31:46 ◼   ► - The Apple Watch X, which I'm calling it for now,

00:31:48 ◼   ► just because it's easier in my brain,

00:31:50 ◼   ► that is a terrifying prospect for me, honestly,

00:31:52 ◼   ► 'cause I'm really loving my Apple Watch Ultra

00:31:55 ◼   ► for the battery life, especially.

00:31:58 ◼   ► And I'm wondering if they bring out this Apple Watch X

00:32:01 ◼   ► with these new features,

00:32:02 ◼   ► will I have to go away from the Ultra

00:32:04 ◼   ► to get the best Apple Watch again?

00:32:06 ◼   ► - I would hope not.

00:32:08 ◼   ► - Well, I mean, but what about the battery life, right?

00:32:10 ◼   ► Like I feel like that's gonna be a thing,

00:32:11 ◼   ► which is because this thing is big

00:32:14 ◼   ► is why it's got the biggest battery life.

00:32:17 ◼   ► And so if they made like a new one in the regular line,

00:32:20 ◼   ► which is this new next gen one,

00:32:22 ◼   ► I can't imagine it would necessarily

00:32:23 ◼   ► have the biggest battery.

00:32:25 ◼   ► I mean, it reminds me of the iPhone X

00:32:28 ◼   ► where I had to go down in screen size.

00:32:30 ◼   ► - Right, right, exactly.

00:32:32 ◼   ► It's also possible that they will try

00:32:34 ◼   ► some of this stuff out in the Ultra

00:32:36 ◼   ► and then bring it to a next gen Apple Watch base model

00:32:41 ◼   ► either simultaneously or at the next cycle.

00:32:45 ◼   ► But you're right, it's possible it'll happen a year before.

00:32:51 ◼   ► Even Mark Gurman who talked about this Apple Watch 10 thing,

00:32:54 ◼   ► it seems like everybody's sort of like,

00:32:56 ◼   ► "Yeah, maybe not next year," right?

00:33:00 ◼   ► Like this seems like,

00:33:02 ◼   ► I read this as being a kind of a corroboration

00:33:04 ◼   ► of the idea that next gen Apple Watch,

00:33:08 ◼   ► whatever they wanna call it,

00:33:09 ◼   ► may not happen until 25 at this point, right?

00:33:13 ◼   ► Like there's the tech that they wanna have in it,

00:33:16 ◼   ► that it's their real kind of like redesign of the concept

00:33:19 ◼   ► for the first time since the beginning.

00:33:21 ◼   ► I mean, the Ultra is that too, right?

00:33:24 ◼   ► But like for the regular watch

00:33:26 ◼   ► to do a different version of it.

00:33:28 ◼   ► And I don't know, I mean,

00:33:31 ◼   ► I think this is a fascinating story

00:33:33 ◼   ► because there's the question too of,

00:33:35 ◼   ► is this a replacement for the Apple Watch series

00:33:38 ◼   ► or is it another model, right?

00:33:41 ◼   ► Because we saw that Apple really varied the iPhone models,

00:33:48 ◼   ► that there's lots of different iPhone models now.

00:33:50 ◼   ► Would they do that with the Apple Watch

00:33:52 ◼   ► or would it be more like a replacement for series,

00:33:54 ◼   ► but they'll also keep series around for a little while

00:33:57 ◼   ► because they can get that one cheaper

00:34:00 ◼   ► and then they've got the sort of a spread going on

00:34:03 ◼   ► between the cheaper watch and then the nice watch

00:34:06 ◼   ► and then the nice big watch.

00:34:08 ◼   ► I don't know, they've got a lot of decisions to make here,

00:34:10 ◼   ► but I look at a rumor like this

00:34:14 ◼   ► and I think maybe this dream of theirs

00:34:16 ◼   ► of reinvigorating the base model series

00:34:20 ◼   ► is not gonna happen next year.

00:34:22 ◼   ► - All right, so we're recording on Monday.

00:34:26 ◼   ► - Yep, October 16th. - Which I think is helpful

00:34:28 ◼   ► to note again for this topic

00:34:31 ◼   ► because there are lots and lots of conflicting rumors

00:34:34 ◼   ► as to whether we will be getting new Apple products

00:34:37 ◼   ► this week, namely iPads.

00:34:39 ◼   ► So Mark Gurman says no.

00:34:43 ◼   ► 9to5Mac says yes and not only yes,

00:34:46 ◼   ► but it will be on Tuesday, so tomorrow, the 17th.

00:34:50 ◼   ► - Huh.

00:34:51 ◼   ► - So Filipe Esposito at 9to5Mac had a report

00:34:54 ◼   ► that with the next set of iPad,

00:34:57 ◼   ► this rumor came slightly before the date rumor,

00:34:59 ◼   ► but this is setting the stage for then what comes next.

00:35:02 ◼   ► So Esposito says that a refresh to the iPad Mini

00:35:06 ◼   ► will happen of an A16 chip.

00:35:09 ◼   ► We'll likely see the same thing for the base model iPad

00:35:12 ◼   ► and then at some point over the coming months,

00:35:14 ◼   ► we may see a bit of a refresh to the iPad Air,

00:35:17 ◼   ► a quote from 9to5Mac, "Details are vague at this point,

00:35:20 ◼   ► "but it suggests that Apple may be considering

00:35:23 ◼   ► "introducing a larger version of the iPad Air

00:35:26 ◼   ► "or a more expensive model with better specs."

00:35:28 ◼   ► So this is something that apparently Apple is testing,

00:35:32 ◼   ► but that's not necessarily expected for this week.

00:35:34 ◼   ► If there is gonna be an update to the iPad Air,

00:35:36 ◼   ► it will be giving the M2 chip to the iPad Air.

00:35:41 ◼   ► Then Chance Miller at 9to5Mac reports on a post from Weibo

00:35:45 ◼   ► that suggests that changes may be made

00:35:47 ◼   ► to the upcoming iPad Mini to fix the jelly scrolling issue.

00:35:51 ◼   ► Apparently to fix this,

00:35:52 ◼   ► they will change the screen assembly direction.

00:35:55 ◼   ► So Chance says, "For those unfamiliar,

00:35:58 ◼   ► "jelly scrolling is when half of the device's display

00:36:00 ◼   ► "refreshes noticeably slower than the other half.

00:36:03 ◼   ► "This results in a sort of wobble effect,

00:36:05 ◼   ► "hence the jelly scrolling name."

00:36:07 ◼   ► So I have this on my iPad Mini,

00:36:08 ◼   ► so sometimes if I'm scrolling a list of things,

00:36:11 ◼   ► the display kind of down the middle

00:36:14 ◼   ► looks like it's catching up with itself.

00:36:16 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's a little jagged kind of thing.

00:36:18 ◼   ► - Now I just, in general, in the iPad Mini,

00:36:21 ◼   ► want a higher quality panel.

00:36:22 ◼   ► Now I'm not talking about micro LED

00:36:27 ◼   ► or OLED or anything like that.

00:36:29 ◼   ► I just think that the screen on the iPad Mini

00:36:32 ◼   ► is not as crisp as other iPads.

00:36:35 ◼   ► I think it is a lower quality panel,

00:36:37 ◼   ► at least it is to my eyes.

00:36:38 ◼   ► So I would like to see them,

00:36:40 ◼   ► and hopefully this would improve that.

00:36:43 ◼   ► I am aware that for anything more serious,

00:36:46 ◼   ► I'll be waiting some time.

00:36:47 ◼   ► Apparently OLED panels have been rumored for 2026

00:36:51 ◼   ► for anything other than the 2024 iPad Pro.

00:36:54 ◼   ► So that could take a while.

00:36:56 ◼   ► But there's more.

00:36:58 ◼   ► But wait, there's more. - There's more.

00:36:59 ◼   ► - According to Joe Rossignol at MacRumors,

00:37:01 ◼   ► Mac Otakara is reporting that, quote,

00:37:04 ◼   ► "Rather than an update to the iPad itself,

00:37:07 ◼   ► the Apple Pencil 3 will be launched,

00:37:09 ◼   ► which will come with a replaceable magnetic tip."

00:37:12 ◼   ► So we got rumors all over the place, which is rare.

00:37:15 ◼   ► - Yeah, so it's, Gurman's like, mm-mm,

00:37:18 ◼   ► not gonna happen next year.

00:37:19 ◼   ► - Mark Gurman says that Apple does not have enough stuff

00:37:23 ◼   ► to bother, like to warrant doing anything.

00:37:24 ◼   ► - Right, right, which is funny because, I mean,

00:37:27 ◼   ► if you've got new iPads and you can sell them

00:37:30 ◼   ► in the holiday quarter, I think you'd want to,

00:37:32 ◼   ► because those are good holiday purchases, I feel like.

00:37:35 ◼   ► A new iPad Mini or an iPad Air,

00:37:38 ◼   ► I could see the argument there,

00:37:41 ◼   ► but maybe they're like, no, you know, we're okay.

00:37:43 ◼   ► We're gonna wait on those and do them next year

00:37:45 ◼   ► and we'll build up stock and we're gonna be fine with it.

00:37:49 ◼   ► But then there's the other report that it is gonna happen

00:37:52 ◼   ► tomorrow as we're recording this.

00:37:54 ◼   ► And then in comes, in slides the Apple Pencil to say,

00:37:57 ◼   ► "Not so fast, what if it's just me?"

00:38:00 ◼   ► Which is, doesn't it strike you as weird,

00:38:03 ◼   ► the idea that you do an Apple Pencil announcement

00:38:07 ◼   ► without iPads, that doesn't,

00:38:09 ◼   ► I don't understand that at all.

00:38:10 ◼   ► - Honestly, I think that this might be a translation error.

00:38:14 ◼   ► Or something's going on there, because like,

00:38:18 ◼   ► why would you just have an Apple Pencil 3?

00:38:22 ◼   ► Like that's the, and you know iPads?

00:38:24 ◼   ► That seems weird. - What is the pressing issue

00:38:26 ◼   ► that you would release an Apple Pencil 3 now,

00:38:29 ◼   ► but no iPads, right?

00:38:31 ◼   ► - With replaceable magnetic tips, okay.

00:38:35 ◼   ► - Yeah, no, I wanna also say the Apple Pencil 3 would work.

00:38:40 ◼   ► Is somebody saying that the new base model iPad

00:38:49 ◼   ► would be updated?

00:38:50 ◼   ► 'Cause that's the one that I don't think makes any sense,

00:38:52 ◼   ► right, because--

00:38:54 ◼   ► - So 9to5Mac, this was, okay, so this was slightly before,

00:38:57 ◼   ► but they were sticking with, I believe,

00:39:00 ◼   ► Chance Miller, who's in a discord,

00:39:01 ◼   ► can tell me wrong if I'm wrong.

00:39:03 ◼   ► - Yeah, friend of the show.

00:39:05 ◼   ► - The base model iPad would get an A16 chip in it.

00:39:08 ◼   ► - Yeah, well, the question with the base model iPad is,

00:39:11 ◼   ► is it really gonna stay with the old Apple Pencil?

00:39:15 ◼   ► Right, right?

00:39:18 ◼   ► And would you announce that with the new Apple Pencil?

00:39:21 ◼   ► - My word, I forgot about that.

00:39:22 ◼   ► - The base model iPad, remember, it's got the adapter.

00:39:24 ◼   ► - It doesn't have the charging thing on the side, does it?

00:39:26 ◼   ► - It's got the weird adapter

00:39:29 ◼   ► that takes the original pencil with lightning

00:39:32 ◼   ► and puts it in a little janky adapter

00:39:34 ◼   ► so it can attach to the USB-C port, right?

00:39:37 ◼   ► So yeah, I feel like, I don't know.

00:39:44 ◼   ► I'm fascinated to watch that

00:39:46 ◼   ► 'cause like, why is that still a thing?

00:39:47 ◼   ► Why, why is that still a thing?

00:39:50 ◼   ► Maybe they have, one thing you could do

00:39:54 ◼   ► from an Apple Pencil 3 might be to engineer

00:39:56 ◼   ► something in it that, if the iPad doesn't support charging

00:40:01 ◼   ► via the standard charging method,

00:40:06 ◼   ► maybe there's an alternate charging and pairing method

00:40:09 ◼   ► that's built into the Pencil 3

00:40:10 ◼   ► that lets them get rid of the Pencil 1.

00:40:13 ◼   ► I don't know what that would be,

00:40:15 ◼   ► but something like a little charge dock or something?

00:40:18 ◼   ► - Well, I think it would just be better

00:40:20 ◼   ► if they just put the magnetic charging thing on the iPad.

00:40:22 ◼   ► Like that's the way to go, right?

00:40:25 ◼   ► Just put the magnetic conduction charging.

00:40:27 ◼   ► If it's on the iPad Mini, I mean,

00:40:28 ◼   ► I know the iPad Mini is a relatively expensive product,

00:40:31 ◼   ► but I think that that's gotta happen at some point,

00:40:34 ◼   ► and so I would hope that it would happen now.

00:40:36 ◼   ► - Also, my question is, if they,

00:40:39 ◼   ► so it's fascinating that this may or may not happen,

00:40:41 ◼   ► but iPad Air and iPad Mini support the Pencil 2

00:40:43 ◼   ► with the magnetic charging on the side.

00:40:46 ◼   ► The iPad low version, right,

00:40:51 ◼   ► had a whole different system

00:40:53 ◼   ► where it moved the camera to the other orientation,

00:40:58 ◼   ► but the speculation is that that prevented it

00:41:01 ◼   ► from having the magnetic charging and there's all that.

00:41:03 ◼   ► So that's one of the things for the iPad.

00:41:05 ◼   ► We gotta get the iPad back in our brains

00:41:07 ◼   ► 'cause this has been a year

00:41:08 ◼   ► without iPad announcements at all.

00:41:10 ◼   ► But there's a question of like,

00:41:11 ◼   ► where is this whole thing going?

00:41:13 ◼   ► If there is a new iPad Air and a new iPad Mini,

00:41:16 ◼   ► do the camera positions change?

00:41:19 ◼   ► If there's a new Pencil, does the charging situation change?

00:41:22 ◼   ► It's not a given that Pencil 3 will charge

00:41:25 ◼   ► by the same method as Pencil 2, right?

00:41:28 ◼   ► Like they could engineer that thing out

00:41:31 ◼   ► and have some other way that you charge it,

00:41:33 ◼   ► which would then get rid of the issue

00:41:37 ◼   ► on the low-end iPad as well.

00:41:39 ◼   ► So it's all really fascinating,

00:41:40 ◼   ► but then you throw in the idea

00:41:42 ◼   ► that somebody's out there going, no, no, nothing.

00:41:46 ◼   ► Germin is saying that.

00:41:48 ◼   ► I wonder what the source of all this is.

00:41:50 ◼   ► I hope there are new iPads

00:41:51 ◼   ► just because it's fun to have new iPads

00:41:53 ◼   ► and to talk about them.

00:41:54 ◼   ► But I am fascinated by the idea

00:41:55 ◼   ► that some people think it's gonna happen

00:41:57 ◼   ► and some people think it's not gonna happen.

00:41:59 ◼   ► But that's what everybody should keep in mind

00:42:01 ◼   ► if some announcement does happen

00:42:02 ◼   ► is like, how does the Pencil charge?

00:42:04 ◼   ► How does it attach?

00:42:05 ◼   ► Is that different if there's a new Pencil?

00:42:08 ◼   ► And did they move the camera, right?

00:42:11 ◼   ► 'Cause that's a thing they did.

00:42:12 ◼   ► 'Cause that iPad has the weird thing

00:42:16 ◼   ► where it's got like a kickstand back case

00:42:18 ◼   ► plus a thing that you attach that does the keyboard.

00:42:21 ◼   ► It's a really unusual product.

00:42:23 ◼   ► So I guess we'll keep an eye.

00:42:27 ◼   ► But I also saw a rumor that said no base level iPad,

00:42:30 ◼   ► only the two that actually need,

00:42:32 ◼   ► that are the oldest and need the most help,

00:42:34 ◼   ► which is the Mini and the Air.

00:42:36 ◼   ► - I think realistically- - So you get an M2 Air

00:42:37 ◼   ► and a A16 Mini.

00:42:39 ◼   ► - What we can say at this point is

00:42:41 ◼   ► everyone's saying everything.

00:42:43 ◼   ► - Except iPad Pro, which isn't gonna happen till next year.

00:42:47 ◼   ► - Correct.

00:42:48 ◼   ► I have another report from Mako Takara,

00:42:50 ◼   ► which is about the iMac.

00:42:53 ◼   ► They have said that the next revision of the iMac

00:42:56 ◼   ► will "likely be available with M2 and M2 Pro chip options,

00:43:01 ◼   ► Thunderbolt 4 ports, Wi-Fi 6E support,

00:43:05 ◼   ► and Bluetooth 5.3 support."

00:43:07 ◼   ► As Joe Rossino at MacRumors notes,

00:43:09 ◼   ► this conflicts with Mark Gurman's reporting

00:43:11 ◼   ► that the next iMac would feature an M3 chip.

00:43:14 ◼   ► No matter what though,

00:43:14 ◼   ► it seems unlikely that these would arrive in October.

00:43:18 ◼   ► No one's suggesting that for the iMac.

00:43:20 ◼   ► - It's interesting 'cause the iMac this fall

00:43:23 ◼   ► has been discussed.

00:43:24 ◼   ► It makes sense in one way.

00:43:30 ◼   ► The M2 rumor is fascinating

00:43:32 ◼   ► because they've not done an M2 iMac.

00:43:36 ◼   ► And I wonder about the status of the M3.

00:43:39 ◼   ► I wonder if one of the things that's going on

00:43:42 ◼   ► is that the M3, you didn't even mention this,

00:43:45 ◼   ► but there was also a discussion.

00:43:47 ◼   ► I saw a report.

00:43:49 ◼   ► It might've been in Mark Gurman's report

00:43:51 ◼   ► that MacBook Pro with M3

00:43:55 ◼   ► is going to precede MacBook Air with M3

00:43:59 ◼   ► and is gonna come early next year,

00:44:02 ◼   ► but the MacBook Air with M3 won't come until summer,

00:44:07 ◼   ► which is a wild thought, right?

00:44:09 ◼   ► That there would be a,

00:44:10 ◼   ► that the Pro chips would ship

00:44:12 ◼   ► before the Air with the base chip would ship.

00:44:16 ◼   ► That's a wild idea too.

00:44:17 ◼   ► I don't know what's going on with that,

00:44:20 ◼   ► but let's talk about the M3

00:44:22 ◼   ► and the three nanometer process

00:44:24 ◼   ► and whatever's going on with that

00:44:25 ◼   ► 'cause we haven't seen that.

00:44:27 ◼   ► One scenario for the M3 getting a delay

00:44:32 ◼   ► might be to do an M2 iMac, right?

00:44:37 ◼   ► Like that might be one scenario is look,

00:44:41 ◼   ► M3 and the iMac, like, oh boy, that's gonna take forever,

00:44:46 ◼   ► but instead an M2 iMac, which would be fine.

00:44:48 ◼   ► I mean, that would be a nice update for the iMac,

00:44:51 ◼   ► especially if there's a Pro option,

00:44:53 ◼   ► but I don't know, it's just something,

00:44:57 ◼   ► it feels to me like something's going on here

00:44:58 ◼   ► and we can't really see it now,

00:45:00 ◼   ► but I suspect that it's Apple rejiggering

00:45:02 ◼   ► what it's gonna do with M3.

00:45:05 ◼   ► And I don't know whether that has to do

00:45:06 ◼   ► with something going on,

00:45:07 ◼   ► literally with the making of the M3 chip

00:45:10 ◼   ► or availability or volume of the M3 chip,

00:45:14 ◼   ► but I wonder, 'cause for a while it sounded like

00:45:17 ◼   ► the reports were M3 this fall.

00:45:19 ◼   ► And now it seems like, no M3 this fall.

00:45:25 ◼   ► And maybe even potentially higher end M3 chips

00:45:29 ◼   ► before the base M3 chips,

00:45:30 ◼   ► which is not something that they've done in the past

00:45:32 ◼   ► and makes me wonder about, again, chip yields and volumes

00:45:36 ◼   ► and how much is going into the iPhone production line

00:45:40 ◼   ► and the rest.

00:45:41 ◼   ► I don't know, it's a real mystery here.

00:45:44 ◼   ► And will there be products announced in October at all?

00:45:47 ◼   ► I think at the low end, there's none,

00:45:49 ◼   ► followed by just the pencil.

00:45:50 ◼   ► And then the high end, you've got multiple iPads

00:45:54 ◼   ► plus a Mac of some sort, maybe an iMac.

00:45:57 ◼   ► But no event per se, but they can, again,

00:46:01 ◼   ► they can release these things with videos

00:46:03 ◼   ► and press releases and they can do them.

00:46:05 ◼   ► They don't have to do them in one go.

00:46:06 ◼   ► They could do iPads one week and Macs the next week

00:46:08 ◼   ► and that wouldn't be unprecedented at all.

00:46:12 ◼   ► - We take a left turn now

00:46:13 ◼   ► and visit the sheriff.

00:46:16 ◼   ► Mark Gurman said that Apple's focus

00:46:18 ◼   ► for the next version of the Vision Pro,

00:46:21 ◼   ► while very early on in the process, of course,

00:46:24 ◼   ► is to focus on reducing the weight of the device overall.

00:46:27 ◼   ► Apple is also investigating how a version two

00:46:30 ◼   ► could have integrated prescription lenses

00:46:32 ◼   ► rather than snap-in lenses.

00:46:35 ◼   ► Apparently from an operational perspective,

00:46:37 ◼   ► having the many, many, many lens options available

00:46:41 ◼   ► in numbers for shipping is very complicated.

00:46:44 ◼   ► So they are investigating what a build to order process

00:46:47 ◼   ► could look like.

00:46:48 ◼   ► So you would submit your prescription

00:46:49 ◼   ► and they would make you a lens and install it and ship it.

00:46:52 ◼   ► However, this causes more problems

00:46:55 ◼   ► with prescription changes because then how would somebody,

00:47:00 ◼   ► would they send their device in to get the lens changed

00:47:03 ◼   ► and also device sharing becomes basically not possible

00:47:07 ◼   ► at that point. - Right.

00:47:09 ◼   ► It's hard.

00:47:10 ◼   ► - I just took, I got a Quest 3.

00:47:15 ◼   ► - Oh, okay.

00:47:16 ◼   ► - Very exciting.

00:47:17 ◼   ► Maybe we can do a Horizon Workrooms meeting sometime.

00:47:20 ◼   ► - Maybe we can.

00:47:21 ◼   ► - Maybe, I don't know.

00:47:22 ◼   ► - You have a better hardware than me apparently, so.

00:47:25 ◼   ► - Sorry.

00:47:26 ◼   ► No eye tracking though.

00:47:27 ◼   ► So, and I pre-ordered it and it arrived and I was like, oh,

00:47:32 ◼   ► and I realized I had to go online to Zenni Optical

00:47:35 ◼   ► and order my lenses for it because otherwise

00:47:39 ◼   ► I have to wear my glasses while I'm wearing it.

00:47:40 ◼   ► And that's not as fun.

00:47:42 ◼   ► I learned my lesson with the Quest 2.

00:47:44 ◼   ► And I had that thought about Apple, which is, you know,

00:47:46 ◼   ► Apple, typical Apple wants to kind of control the process.

00:47:49 ◼   ► So they got like, oh, there's Zeiss lenses,

00:47:51 ◼   ► but it sounds like what they want to do is sort of have it

00:47:53 ◼   ► be all in the Apple process.

00:47:55 ◼   ► Whereas what Meta has done is basically said,

00:47:57 ◼   ► do you want prescription lenses?

00:47:59 ◼   ► Use our partner.

00:48:00 ◼   ► And that's like, someone else is doing it.

00:48:02 ◼   ► Someone else is making those.

00:48:04 ◼   ► They've worked with a partner.

00:48:06 ◼   ► And this is one of those cases where maybe,

00:48:09 ◼   ► I mean, given the volumes, I mean, who knows, right?

00:48:12 ◼   ► Like if they're intending for this to be a high volume

00:48:15 ◼   ► product eventually, they're going to have to deal with this.

00:48:17 ◼   ► Do they want to control the whole thing?

00:48:19 ◼   ► Do they want to use a partner?

00:48:20 ◼   ► It's certainly nicer to just,

00:48:22 ◼   ► if I could have put in my prescription and placed my order

00:48:24 ◼   ► with Meta right upfront and gotten shipped with the lenses,

00:48:27 ◼   ► that would have been better,

00:48:29 ◼   ► even if they were snap-in lenses.

00:48:31 ◼   ► I'm not sure,

00:48:33 ◼   ► I'm not sure why this is better than just allowing you

00:48:36 ◼   ► to order the lenses and have them pre-snapped in

00:48:39 ◼   ► or included in the box,

00:48:41 ◼   ► rather than having it be like a part

00:48:44 ◼   ► that you have to replace.

00:48:45 ◼   ► That seems complicated, but it's an operations issue.

00:48:49 ◼   ► You know, this is, it's just going to be,

00:48:52 ◼   ► it's fascinating, right?

00:48:53 ◼   ► Like how does, Apple has a way of doing things

00:48:56 ◼   ► and then a product like this challenges

00:48:57 ◼   ► some of those preconceptions, I think.

00:48:59 ◼   ► - And to make a future cheaper version,

00:49:03 ◼   ► Mark Gurman is saying in the 1500 to 2000 range,

00:49:06 ◼   ► this is separate from version two of the Vision Pro,

00:49:09 ◼   ► this is to make the Vision product.

00:49:11 ◼   ► Apple would look to try and remove the external display

00:49:16 ◼   ► and reduce the overall sensors and cameras on the system

00:49:19 ◼   ► as a possibility.

00:49:21 ◼   ► A quote from Mark Gurman,

00:49:22 ◼   ► "Apple is prioritizing the development of a cheaper model,

00:49:24 ◼   ► even at the expense of other initiatives

00:49:27 ◼   ► like the AR glasses project."

00:49:28 ◼   ► Which I mean, obviously, right?

00:49:31 ◼   ► - Yeah, he had another line in there

00:49:32 ◼   ► about the AR glasses project,

00:49:33 ◼   ► which is basically like the AR glasses project,

00:49:36 ◼   ► which doesn't have things that will exist anytime soon,

00:49:39 ◼   ► like it's just not going to happen.

00:49:40 ◼   ► - Of course you would prioritize this.

00:49:43 ◼   ► - Of course you would.

00:49:44 ◼   ► Now, the big change here, right?

00:49:46 ◼   ► Is that we had an earlier report a few months ago

00:49:48 ◼   ► where they were talking about like,

00:49:49 ◼   ► what are the fundamentals of Vision Pro

00:49:51 ◼   ► that we wouldn't change?

00:49:52 ◼   ► And one of them was the external display.

00:49:55 ◼   ► We're like, oh no, no, no,

00:49:56 ◼   ► that's part of the whole value of the Vision Pro.

00:49:58 ◼   ► We got to keep that.

00:49:59 ◼   ► And all of us at the time were like, really?

00:50:01 ◼   ► That's gotta be real expensive for something

00:50:03 ◼   ► that is not necessary for the user

00:50:07 ◼   ► and is more part of your story

00:50:08 ◼   ► about how wonderful this product is.

00:50:11 ◼   ► And based on this report,

00:50:13 ◼   ► it sounds like maybe they caved on that.

00:50:15 ◼   ► Like whoever was like insisting on that was told,

00:50:20 ◼   ► "No, we have to ship a cheaper version.

00:50:22 ◼   ► If we're ever gonna ship this thing in volume,

00:50:25 ◼   ► you're gonna have to give up

00:50:26 ◼   ► your precious external display."

00:50:28 ◼   ► And Mike, it makes me wonder

00:50:30 ◼   ► if the external display is gonna be a one and done

00:50:34 ◼   ► for the Vision Pro.

00:50:35 ◼   ► - I don't know.

00:50:35 ◼   ► Here's the thing.

00:50:36 ◼   ► My feeling on this is,

00:50:38 ◼   ► like I'm seeing a lot of people online being like,

00:50:40 ◼   ► "Oh, so it wasn't core to the product."

00:50:43 ◼   ► I don't think it,

00:50:44 ◼   ► I think it's too soon for people to like,

00:50:46 ◼   ► claim that this was a bad part of the device.

00:50:49 ◼   ► Like I feel like a lot of people,

00:50:51 ◼   ► 'cause we were talking about like,

00:50:52 ◼   ► oh, it seems like it's core to the product.

00:50:55 ◼   ► And like from everything Apple was saying,

00:50:57 ◼   ► it feels core to the product, right?

00:50:59 ◼   ► Like everything they're showing,

00:51:01 ◼   ► everything they're saying,

00:51:02 ◼   ► this seems like an important part

00:51:03 ◼   ► of the overall proposition for them.

00:51:05 ◼   ► So like, I just think it's too soon one way or another

00:51:08 ◼   ► to talk about like,

00:51:09 ◼   ► whether this thing is important or not,

00:51:12 ◼   ► because no one's even seen it.

00:51:14 ◼   ► - Well, it's true.

00:51:15 ◼   ► We don't know.

00:51:16 ◼   ► What this does sound like though,

00:51:18 ◼   ► is that in the battle between,

00:51:21 ◼   ► philosophically you've gotta have the ability

00:51:23 ◼   ► to see somebody using this product

00:51:25 ◼   ► and see into them,

00:51:27 ◼   ► and therefore you need to have a display on the outside.

00:51:31 ◼   ► That versus,

00:51:32 ◼   ► we gotta get the price down, right?

00:51:35 ◼   ► We gotta make a model that doesn't cost $3,500.

00:51:37 ◼   ► How, and going to the product manager basically and saying,

00:51:40 ◼   ► how are you going to make a $1,500 headset?

00:51:43 ◼   ► Which for the record is very expensive still.

00:51:46 ◼   ► Their cheap headset,

00:51:47 ◼   ► which is gonna be maybe half the price of the Vision Pro,

00:51:50 ◼   ► is still very expensive, okay?

00:51:54 ◼   ► And you look at that display on the outside

00:51:58 ◼   ► and you're like, well,

00:51:59 ◼   ► I mean, I can think of one thing

00:52:00 ◼   ► that will drop the price of building this thing

00:52:02 ◼   ► by hundreds of dollars,

00:52:05 ◼   ► and it's that display.

00:52:06 ◼   ► So, you know, you make the choice and you're right.

00:52:10 ◼   ► I don't think it means,

00:52:12 ◼   ► aha, I guess it wasn't core to the product

00:52:14 ◼   ► because it's probably feels like an enormous sacrifice.

00:52:16 ◼   ► And you know, it's Apple maybe,

00:52:19 ◼   ► I'm sure it would be replaced by a less expensive

00:52:23 ◼   ► presence awareness indicator, right?

00:52:27 ◼   ► Something that indicates that they can see out

00:52:30 ◼   ► so that you know that they can see out,

00:52:31 ◼   ► even if it's not a display,

00:52:33 ◼   ► it's a light or I don't know what, something else.

00:52:38 ◼   ► But what it does say is that Apple's serious

00:52:42 ◼   ► about getting that price down

00:52:43 ◼   ► if they're gonna do a cheaper product.

00:52:45 ◼   ► Like, 'cause our initial reaction was in part,

00:52:49 ◼   ► how do you make a cheaper product

00:52:50 ◼   ► and keep that external display?

00:52:51 ◼   ► It seems like one of the easiest decisions to cut it

00:52:55 ◼   ► because it doesn't affect the user experience, right?

00:52:58 ◼   ► It affects the experience of the people around the user,

00:53:00 ◼   ► but it doesn't affect the user experience.

00:53:02 ◼   ► So it does sound like there's a shift here a little bit.

00:53:05 ◼   ► - We'll see.

00:53:06 ◼   ► - Right, 'cause you're, presumably,

00:53:07 ◼   ► if you're building a Vision One,

00:53:10 ◼   ► you are looking at every single decision.

00:53:13 ◼   ► I was thinking about this actually,

00:53:15 ◼   ► as I got the Quest 3 out,

00:53:17 ◼   ► is like, okay, Quest 3 versus Quest Pro,

00:53:20 ◼   ► what are the nice features of the Quest Pro

00:53:25 ◼   ► that they're like, hmm, no, let's make it worse, right?

00:53:30 ◼   ► And Apple is bad at that.

00:53:31 ◼   ► I mean, Apple struggles with that.

00:53:32 ◼   ► That's, I think, one of the reasons Apple is so successful

00:53:34 ◼   ► with their use last year's product kind of approach

00:53:38 ◼   ► is that Apple's better at giving you

00:53:40 ◼   ► last year's cutting edge product

00:53:41 ◼   ► than they are at giving you a middling product, right?

00:53:43 ◼   ► They don't wanna design a middling product.

00:53:45 ◼   ► They wanna design a really good product.

00:53:47 ◼   ► But for Vision Pro or for Vision OS to have a life,

00:53:51 ◼   ► it needs to get cheaper.

00:53:53 ◼   ► So imagine that conversation of,

00:53:55 ◼   ► we chose this really nice woven material for the headband.

00:53:58 ◼   ► You're like, guys, it's gotta be plastic, right?

00:54:03 ◼   ► Like it just has to be.

00:54:04 ◼   ► I'm sorry, 'cause it costs so much money

00:54:07 ◼   ► and we need to get the cost of this thing down.

00:54:09 ◼   ► Again, I've said this before,

00:54:11 ◼   ► to be a fly on the wall for those discussions, right?

00:54:13 ◼   ► How do we compromise our product

00:54:17 ◼   ► in order to make it affordable is a very, I think,

00:54:20 ◼   ► very hard thing for Apple to do.

00:54:23 ◼   ► But with the cost of Vision Pro,

00:54:27 ◼   ► if they wanna ship this in volume,

00:54:28 ◼   ► they really have to do that.

00:54:29 ◼   ► So, well, we'll keep an eye on it, Mike.

00:54:34 ◼   ► - We most certainly will.

00:54:37 ◼   ► At least one, but probably two eyes.

00:54:40 ◼   ► - Probably two.

00:54:41 ◼   ► - Or eyesight, in fact.

00:54:43 ◼   ► We'll keep it in focus, assuming we have the right lenses.

00:54:46 ◼   ► - This episode is brought to you by Zocdoc.

00:54:51 ◼   ► You know that feeling when you finally find the thing

00:54:54 ◼   ► that you've been searching for online,

00:54:56 ◼   ► that exact piece of hardware you were looking for,

00:54:58 ◼   ► or the one, you know,

00:55:00 ◼   ► maybe the one that all those great reviews

00:55:01 ◼   ► are telling you about?

00:55:02 ◼   ► You found those reviews, you found the product, you have it.

00:55:04 ◼   ► It's available in your country.

00:55:05 ◼   ► Get it on Next Day Delivery.

00:55:07 ◼   ► You're a happy person.

00:55:08 ◼   ► So why is it that you can get the most random niche thing

00:55:12 ◼   ► from around the world in two days?

00:55:13 ◼   ► But if you wanna see a good doctor,

00:55:15 ◼   ► it can take forever to get an appointment.

00:55:17 ◼   ► Not to mention, how do you actually know

00:55:19 ◼   ► if they're a good doctor?

00:55:20 ◼   ► Thankfully, there's Zocdoc,

00:55:22 ◼   ► a place to find and book great doctors

00:55:24 ◼   ► who actually have amazing reviews,

00:55:26 ◼   ► many of appointments available within 24 hours.

00:55:29 ◼   ► Zocdoc is a free app where you can find amazing doctors

00:55:33 ◼   ► and book appointments online.

00:55:34 ◼   ► We're talking about appointments with doctors

00:55:36 ◼   ► with thousands of top-rated patient review doctors

00:55:39 ◼   ► and specialists available to you.

00:55:41 ◼   ► You can filter specifically for ones who take your insurance

00:55:43 ◼   ► that are located near you

00:55:45 ◼   ► and treat almost any condition you're searching for.

00:55:47 ◼   ► These doctors have verified reviews

00:55:49 ◼   ► from actual real patients, not bots.

00:55:51 ◼   ► The average wait time to see a doctor booked on Zocdoc

00:55:54 ◼   ► is between just 24 and 48 hours.

00:55:56 ◼   ► That's it.

00:55:57 ◼   ► You can even get same-day appointments.

00:55:59 ◼   ► Once you find the doctor you want,

00:56:01 ◼   ► you can book them immediately with just a few taps in an app,

00:56:04 ◼   ► no more waiting awkwardly on hold of a receptionist.

00:56:07 ◼   ► This is all the ideal world.

00:56:10 ◼   ► Book in an app, see them the next day, perfect.

00:56:14 ◼   ► I hate having to try and call a doctor's surgery

00:56:17 ◼   ► on the phone and then they'll be like,

00:56:18 ◼   ► oh yeah, they can see you in three weeks from now.

00:56:20 ◼   ► Well, the thing that I want to talk to them about

00:56:22 ◼   ► might not even be a problem in three weeks from now.

00:56:24 ◼   ► I want to speak to a doctor now.

00:56:26 ◼   ► That's why Zocdoc is awesome.

00:56:27 ◼   ► Just go to Zocdoc.com/upgradefm

00:56:30 ◼   ► and download the Zocdoc app for free,

00:56:32 ◼   ► then find and book a top-rated doctor today.

00:56:35 ◼   ► That is Z-O-C-D-O-C.com/upgradefm.

00:56:40 ◼   ► Zocdoc.com/upgradefm.

00:56:43 ◼   ► Our thanks to Zocdoc for their support of this show

00:56:46 ◼   ► and all of Relay FM.

00:56:47 ◼   ► So, some time ago before the hubbub of the new iPhone,

00:56:53 ◼   ► before the iPhone event even,

00:56:55 ◼   ► Jason, you wrote a post about your current feelings

00:56:58 ◼   ► of trying to use the iPad as your only computer

00:57:01 ◼   ► when traveling and I've had this in my show notes for ages

00:57:04 ◼   ► and finally we're gonna talk about it today.

00:57:07 ◼   ► It is you giving up the iPad only travel dream.

00:57:11 ◼   ► I would like to read a quote from your article

00:57:14 ◼   ► as a lead in for this.

00:57:16 ◼   ► You say, "For many years, I've tried very hard

00:57:19 ◼   ► "to travel with only an iPad.

00:57:21 ◼   ► "Why bring two devices?

00:57:22 ◼   ► "And I'm not leaving my iPad at home.

00:57:24 ◼   ► "Since the arrival of Apple Silicon, however,

00:57:26 ◼   ► "I've gone back to traveling with both an iPad

00:57:28 ◼   ► "and a MacBook Air."

00:57:30 ◼   ► So what were you doing when you were bringing the iPad?

00:57:33 ◼   ► How did you make that work?

00:57:34 ◼   ► Why has it changed again?

00:57:36 ◼   ► - Well, it's funny 'cause I wrote this

00:57:38 ◼   ► the last time I was visiting my mom in Phoenix

00:57:40 ◼   ► and now I'm about to go back there again

00:57:41 ◼   ► and the same thing, I'll bring the iPad and the MacBook Air.

00:57:44 ◼   ► Well, listen to the show, may remember, may not.

00:57:46 ◼   ► I also wrote about it on six colors.

00:57:49 ◼   ► I tried to just travel with the iPad Pro.

00:57:52 ◼   ► The challenge for me is

00:57:55 ◼   ► a lot of it is podcasting related.

00:57:59 ◼   ► I do podcasts every week

00:58:01 ◼   ► and the iPad OS functionality just isn't there

00:58:06 ◼   ► to do podcasting.

00:58:07 ◼   ► So you end up having to work around it.

00:58:09 ◼   ► The sound system is not particularly sophisticated,

00:58:11 ◼   ► access to it by apps is not particularly powerful.

00:58:13 ◼   ► And so I ended up doing a bunch of things

00:58:16 ◼   ► that were hacks on the podcasting part of my life.

00:58:21 ◼   ► So I brought an external recording device, right?

00:58:26 ◼   ► And wired it in so that I could be on the iPad

00:58:28 ◼   ► talking on Skype,

00:58:30 ◼   ► but also recording to an external recording device.

00:58:34 ◼   ► Which works, but then I don't get

00:58:36 ◼   ► the other person's recording,

00:58:37 ◼   ► which means that there's a backup that's missing.

00:58:39 ◼   ► In the later days, I tried when we were using Zoom

00:58:45 ◼   ► to use Zoom's recording feature,

00:58:46 ◼   ► but Zoom's recording feature,

00:58:48 ◼   ► if you look at their documentation,

00:58:49 ◼   ► there's a little asterisk that says,

00:58:51 ◼   ► "None of this works on the iPad or iPhone."

00:58:53 ◼   ► They just didn't build it,

00:58:55 ◼   ► which is too bad 'cause they could build it to work

00:58:57 ◼   ► 'cause they're literally running as the only app.

00:59:00 ◼   ► They could record your local audio on your microphone

00:59:02 ◼   ► and they don't do it.

00:59:04 ◼   ► And so I had all these different things.

00:59:07 ◼   ► I drew a little chart of what gets connected to what

00:59:10 ◼   ► in order for it to work.

00:59:12 ◼   ► And I ended up,

00:59:16 ◼   ► especially when I got the first Apple Silicon MacBook Air,

00:59:20 ◼   ► I had this thought, which is like, I was taking a trip,

00:59:22 ◼   ► I don't even remember where, and I thought,

00:59:24 ◼   ► am I going to go through all that trouble

00:59:26 ◼   ► or am I just gonna bring the MacBook Air 2

00:59:29 ◼   ► because it's lighter?

00:59:30 ◼   ► And it led to a situation where back in August

00:59:33 ◼   ► when I wrote this post, I had just been on a trip

00:59:36 ◼   ► to Colorado with Lauren's family

00:59:39 ◼   ► and I had to do one podcast while I was there.

00:59:42 ◼   ► And I brought the MacBook Air, I took it out one time,

00:59:45 ◼   ► which was to do that one podcast,

00:59:47 ◼   ► and then I put it away again.

00:59:49 ◼   ► And I thought, well, I mean,

00:59:51 ◼   ► I had to carry this thing around, that's true,

00:59:54 ◼   ► but I really only brought it for the one podcast.

00:59:57 ◼   ► But the truth is though, it's not quite that simple

01:00:01 ◼   ► because the other part of this is the rest of my job.

01:00:04 ◼   ► And while I could do a lot of the rest of my job

01:00:07 ◼   ► with the iPad, in certain circumstances

01:00:10 ◼   ► there was extra effort, right?

01:00:11 ◼   ► Like there's, I don't sit in an iPad all day,

01:00:14 ◼   ► I sit on a Mac.

01:00:15 ◼   ► So I build up work structures based on being on a Mac

01:00:19 ◼   ► and then they're gone on the iPad.

01:00:21 ◼   ► Now I can build up new structures.

01:00:22 ◼   ► So like on that trip to Colorado,

01:00:24 ◼   ► I had to do the charts for the Apple results.

01:00:27 ◼   ► I used the MacBook Air for that too.

01:00:28 ◼   ► So I opened it twice on that trip actually.

01:00:30 ◼   ► And the reason I did use the MacBook Air

01:00:32 ◼   ► is not that I couldn't have done it on the iPad

01:00:34 ◼   ► because I could have,

01:00:35 ◼   ► I built a shortcut that would do it on the iPad,

01:00:37 ◼   ► but that it would be a much slower process.

01:00:40 ◼   ► And since I had the MacBook Air,

01:00:42 ◼   ► I could just use my more streamlined macOS process.

01:00:47 ◼   ► So it just, the story was not,

01:00:50 ◼   ► and it was, it got on Hacker News and stuff.

01:00:53 ◼   ► What the story wasn't is I hate the iPad

01:00:57 ◼   ► and I'm not using it anymore.

01:00:58 ◼   ► I love the iPad.

01:00:59 ◼   ► I use it most of the time, even when I'm traveling.

01:01:02 ◼   ► But I did have that moment where I thought,

01:01:05 ◼   ► I am a happier traveler

01:01:09 ◼   ► and it's not that much extra space in my bag

01:01:12 ◼   ► to just bring the MacBook Air 2.

01:01:14 ◼   ► And if I've got it, use it for what it was intended

01:01:17 ◼   ► and stop because of the fundamental limitations of iOS

01:01:20 ◼   ► or iPad OS that Apple is just not addressing.

01:01:23 ◼   ► I have given up trying to

01:01:29 ◼   ► make the iPad do stuff that it is not,

01:01:33 ◼   ► that its maker doesn't want me to do with it,

01:01:35 ◼   ► if that makes sense.

01:01:36 ◼   ► That sort of is where I ended up is

01:01:38 ◼   ► I'm no longer gonna be kind of like a daredevil,

01:01:40 ◼   ► like trying to jump a canyon on an iPad.

01:01:45 ◼   ► I'm like, ah, it must be done because it can be done

01:01:48 ◼   ► and we must see if it can be done.

01:01:50 ◼   ► And I'm over that.

01:01:51 ◼   ► Like I would love for the iPad to progress to the point

01:01:55 ◼   ► where I could not bring the MacBook Air with me and be fine,

01:01:58 ◼   ► but it's not there and I'm kind of tired of fighting it

01:02:02 ◼   ► because Apple's not enabling this stuff.

01:02:07 ◼   ► So why should I beat my head against this brick wall?

01:02:10 ◼   ► Why not just bring the MacBook Air,

01:02:11 ◼   ► which is perfectly suited for some of these tasks?

01:02:14 ◼   ► - Yeah, I wanna read again from the article

01:02:17 ◼   ► 'cause you're kind of getting close to the thing

01:02:20 ◼   ► that you were talking about and I wanna talk about it

01:02:22 ◼   ► based on what you said.

01:02:23 ◼   ► So this is a longer quote, so bear with me a second.

01:02:27 ◼   ► The beauty of the Mac as a platform

01:02:28 ◼   ► is that Apple doesn't have to think of every use case

01:02:31 ◼   ► and doesn't have to build out every single esoteric detail

01:02:34 ◼   ► in order to enable new features.

01:02:36 ◼   ► On the iPad, advancement doesn't work like that.

01:02:38 ◼   ► Instead, it's decided in various meetings inside Apple

01:02:41 ◼   ► where specific features will get prioritized

01:02:43 ◼   ► or deprioritized for the next operating system cycle.

01:02:47 ◼   ► Once every year or two, we will hear about

01:02:48 ◼   ► some legitimately exciting new features

01:02:51 ◼   ► that will extend the usability of the platform

01:02:53 ◼   ► and that will basically be it.

01:02:55 ◼   ► The waiting begins again.

01:02:56 ◼   ► Apple will determine what I can do with my iPad

01:02:59 ◼   ► and when that changes.

01:03:00 ◼   ► I'm sure they'll let me know.

01:03:01 ◼   ► Until then, all any of us can do is wait.

01:03:04 ◼   ► So of course there are, it doesn't work exactly this way,

01:03:09 ◼   ► but I know you're not saying it,

01:03:11 ◼   ► but people can make things for the Mac

01:03:14 ◼   ► that are outside of the App Store and do stuff.

01:03:18 ◼   ► And so you can find some truly weird and wonderful things

01:03:21 ◼   ► on the Mac because the platform will allow for it.

01:03:24 ◼   ► To a wide extent, Apple with the Mac,

01:03:28 ◼   ► Apple, you can make things for the Mac

01:03:29 ◼   ► that Apple has never intended the Mac to do.

01:03:32 ◼   ► And that go way beyond what Apple

01:03:34 ◼   ► would ever have thought of.

01:03:36 ◼   ► And it's fine.

01:03:38 ◼   ► And I feel like on the iPad, Apple has to have meetings

01:03:42 ◼   ► where they discuss whether they will allow a thing

01:03:45 ◼   ► to be on the iPad.

01:03:46 ◼   ► And then that gets added and we go, yay, but like, that's it.

01:03:50 ◼   ► Like it's a limited space of possibility

01:03:53 ◼   ► that is incrementally expanded by Apple.

01:03:56 ◼   ► Whereas the Mac, while not technically

01:03:58 ◼   ► a completely wide open space,

01:04:01 ◼   ► is pretty much a wide open space, right?

01:04:03 ◼   ► Like you could do almost anything on the Mac

01:04:07 ◼   ► and Apple will, you know, is not standing in your way.

01:04:10 ◼   ► It's just providing a platform

01:04:13 ◼   ► and maybe they'll clamp down on some stuff,

01:04:15 ◼   ► but it's starting open

01:04:17 ◼   ► and then some restrictions are placed on it.

01:04:20 ◼   ► Whereas the iPad is a closed set

01:04:22 ◼   ► that gradually expands.

01:04:24 ◼   ► - And you mean not even just what the platform can do

01:04:29 ◼   ► on the iPad, even if you can do something

01:04:32 ◼   ► weird and wonderful, will it get through app review?

01:04:35 ◼   ► - Well, yeah, I mean, that's always been one

01:04:37 ◼   ► of the arguments about the app store only model

01:04:40 ◼   ► is it has that chilling effect too,

01:04:42 ◼   ► which is some wild ideas that might even be approved

01:04:46 ◼   ► are never done because you would have to build it

01:04:49 ◼   ► and there's no pre-approval process.

01:04:51 ◼   ► You'd have to build it.

01:04:52 ◼   ► And then is it ever gonna get approved?

01:04:54 ◼   ► And then you're left with like a jailbreak and all that.

01:04:57 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:04:59 ◼   ► I mean, I'm at the point now where I think

01:05:00 ◼   ► that it's more likely that at some point

01:05:03 ◼   ► Apple will allow you to run a virtualized version

01:05:06 ◼   ► of Mac OS on an iPad,

01:05:08 ◼   ► than that Apple will allow something like Audio Hijack

01:05:11 ◼   ► to run an iPad OS.

01:05:13 ◼   ► I actually think that the former is more likely

01:05:15 ◼   ► that you've got an M1 or an M2 iPad.

01:05:17 ◼   ► It's fully capable of this stuff.

01:05:19 ◼   ► If you attach a keyboard, the magic keyboard

01:05:22 ◼   ► and you click on the virtual Mac thing

01:05:26 ◼   ► and it just runs Mac OS Sonoma

01:05:29 ◼   ► and you do that for a while and then you leave it

01:05:32 ◼   ► and it shuts itself off, like that why not?

01:05:36 ◼   ► First off, why not?

01:05:37 ◼   ► You could do that.

01:05:38 ◼   ► And second, does that solve your problem?

01:05:41 ◼   ► Maybe, but like the actual iPad OS

01:05:46 ◼   ► and it's not like it's bad.

01:05:47 ◼   ► It's just that Apple's got its priorities with it.

01:05:49 ◼   ► And you can't extend beyond it, not really.

01:05:52 ◼   ► And that's just where it is.

01:05:54 ◼   ► And we all were pushing, I think psychologically,

01:05:59 ◼   ► why people like me and Federico and David Sparks

01:06:04 ◼   ► and all sorts of other people were pushing the iPad

01:06:07 ◼   ► past its limits in that period.

01:06:09 ◼   ► There's two things.

01:06:10 ◼   ► One is the Mac was sort of a drag.

01:06:12 ◼   ► It was a bad time for the Mac.

01:06:14 ◼   ► And the iPad was legitimately exciting and new.

01:06:16 ◼   ► And we've talked about this in another context

01:06:18 ◼   ► where it feels like there was a period

01:06:20 ◼   ► where Apple thought the iPad was the future

01:06:22 ◼   ► and that the Mac was a legacy product

01:06:24 ◼   ► that was gonna go off and sort of like just exist.

01:06:27 ◼   ► And so those of us who felt like that was where it was going

01:06:30 ◼   ► were embracing this new exciting thing that was the future

01:06:33 ◼   ► because we thought as we pushed forward,

01:06:35 ◼   ► we were learning what everyone else would learn

01:06:37 ◼   ► in a few years as the platform expanded.

01:06:40 ◼   ► We were out there on the edge

01:06:42 ◼   ► and this is a thing with tech writers that happens.

01:06:45 ◼   ► You see things like I saw an ad the other day

01:06:48 ◼   ► about those making fun of the fact

01:06:50 ◼   ► that people have to know that like all caps

01:06:52 ◼   ► in a social media post is like you're yelling.

01:06:55 ◼   ► And I thought I learned that lesson in 1985, right?

01:06:59 ◼   ► That's an extreme example,

01:07:00 ◼   ► but like being on the cutting edge of tech,

01:07:02 ◼   ► one of the things you're doing is coming back and reporting

01:07:05 ◼   ► like this is how it's gonna be for you

01:07:06 ◼   ► in two or three years.

01:07:07 ◼   ► So with the iPad, that's what we all thought we were doing.

01:07:10 ◼   ► And I don't know if we misread it or if Apple swerved,

01:07:14 ◼   ► I think Apple swerved,

01:07:15 ◼   ► but regardless all of us look up after a while and say,

01:07:19 ◼   ► you know what, this platform isn't the future

01:07:21 ◼   ► in the way we thought and Apple is not moving it forward

01:07:25 ◼   ► at the pace that we thought they would.

01:07:27 ◼   ► And the Mac meanwhile has become reinvigorated

01:07:30 ◼   ► and Apple Silicon has really sort of like transformed

01:07:32 ◼   ► how awesome the Mac is and is moving it forward

01:07:35 ◼   ► and the laptops are better and they more fun to use

01:07:38 ◼   ► and all of those things.

01:07:40 ◼   ► And that's when we all step off to some degree

01:07:43 ◼   ► and sort of say, okay,

01:07:44 ◼   ► like and that this piece was me not saying that iPad sucks

01:07:48 ◼   ► 'cause it doesn't.

01:07:49 ◼   ► Again, it is me saying,

01:07:52 ◼   ► I am not interested in being a trailblazer

01:07:54 ◼   ► and trying to force it to do things it can't do

01:07:56 ◼   ► because I no longer have faith

01:07:58 ◼   ► that it will ever be able to do them.

01:08:00 ◼   ► And there's another tool that's better for this

01:08:02 ◼   ► and it's the Mac and I can stick,

01:08:05 ◼   ► my backpack is old and it was built

01:08:08 ◼   ► for a much larger universe of laptops than currently exist.

01:08:12 ◼   ► And as a result, the laptop case and my backpack

01:08:15 ◼   ► fits a MacBook Air and an iPad Pro just fine.

01:08:18 ◼   ► I can put them both in there.

01:08:20 ◼   ► And so that's what I do now.

01:08:21 ◼   ► - For me, it was really the thing that David Sparks said,

01:08:26 ◼   ► I think it was in like the 2021 or 2022 report card

01:08:31 ◼   ► where he was saying that like,

01:08:32 ◼   ► I stopped trying to make the iPad be something it isn't.

01:08:35 ◼   ► Like it was a very much a crystallizing thing for me

01:08:38 ◼   ► because the combination of my Apple Silicon MacBook Air

01:08:43 ◼   ► and my iPad mini just changed my relationship to the iPad

01:08:46 ◼   ► because it drew a much stronger line for me

01:08:50 ◼   ► between what these products are for.

01:08:52 ◼   ► When like a Mac could be as portable as my iPad Pro,

01:08:57 ◼   ► changed things a lot, right?

01:09:00 ◼   ► Because the Apple Silicon laptops could be the portability

01:09:03 ◼   ► along with the battery life and the power.

01:09:06 ◼   ► And then the iPad mini gave me enough of an iPad experience

01:09:11 ◼   ► in a truly tiny size,

01:09:13 ◼   ► which I found very good for me at home.

01:09:15 ◼   ► But it helped to them make me realize

01:09:17 ◼   ► what the iPad for me is best at,

01:09:19 ◼   ► which is content, video, social media, reading,

01:09:24 ◼   ► and dealing with light, very light work.

01:09:26 ◼   ► Like that for me was just the best combination.

01:09:29 ◼   ► And like what this conversation isn't

01:09:31 ◼   ► is like the iPad sucks.

01:09:33 ◼   ► No, the iPad is awesome.

01:09:34 ◼   ► It's the computer I use most at home,

01:09:37 ◼   ► but it's not what I get work done on anymore.

01:09:42 ◼   ► Like I don't open spreadsheets on an iPad anymore

01:09:45 ◼   ► like I used to for years, right?

01:09:47 ◼   ► I don't do my show prep on an iPad anymore

01:09:49 ◼   ► like I used to for years.

01:09:51 ◼   ► I don't do all my email on an iPad.

01:09:52 ◼   ► Like I just do that on my Mac now

01:09:55 ◼   ► and I leave my iPad for the things that it is best at.

01:09:59 ◼   ► - Right, I'm fascinated.

01:10:01 ◼   ► So when I was in Memphis,

01:10:02 ◼   ► I got to see you and Steven with iPad minis.

01:10:04 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:10:06 ◼   ► - I think that's really interesting.

01:10:07 ◼   ► I have something that we're gonna talk about in a minute.

01:10:10 ◼   ► I have spent the last couple of years

01:10:14 ◼   ► sort of dabbling with these weird

01:10:17 ◼   ► Android based E Ink devices.

01:10:20 ◼   ► - We'll be talking about that after the break.

01:10:23 ◼   ► - After the break, yeah.

01:10:24 ◼   ► See, I'm forward promoting here.

01:10:25 ◼   ► This is how it works.

01:10:27 ◼   ► Tune in to upgrade to hear the hosts

01:10:29 ◼   ► explain what they're doing while they're doing it.

01:10:31 ◼   ► But, and that's the idea there is giving me iPad

01:10:36 ◼   ► like multitasking where I can choose apps,

01:10:39 ◼   ► but in a Kindle kind of context with E Ink

01:10:44 ◼   ► and not like I'm not watching videos and stuff like that.

01:10:47 ◼   ► And I really like E Ink as is obvious

01:10:49 ◼   ► 'cause I keep writing about it.

01:10:50 ◼   ► I really like E Ink as a display technology.

01:10:53 ◼   ► I think it gets me in,

01:10:54 ◼   ► I think it makes my brain work differently.

01:10:56 ◼   ► I think it allows me to focus on the words on the page

01:10:59 ◼   ► in a way that I don't if I have notifications on my iPad

01:11:02 ◼   ► and all of those things.

01:11:03 ◼   ► And like, I can always swipe to some app

01:11:06 ◼   ► that I know is there.

01:11:07 ◼   ► And it's like, no, I'm just using this device.

01:11:10 ◼   ► That said, I look at the iPad mini that you guys are using

01:11:12 ◼   ► and I think, and I've tried it.

01:11:15 ◼   ► Every time an iPad mini comes out,

01:11:16 ◼   ► I get a review unit, I try it out.

01:11:18 ◼   ► The latest iPad mini is really great.

01:11:20 ◼   ► And I think about like, could I do this instead?

01:11:25 ◼   ► And I could, I prefer not to, but I could.

01:11:29 ◼   ► It's trying to scratch that same edge.

01:11:33 ◼   ► And yes, the iPad is really good at that.

01:11:36 ◼   ► I think to your larger point, it's really good at that.

01:11:39 ◼   ► You were able to sort of take the pro out of the equation

01:11:42 ◼   ► because you now are just using the iPad mini

01:11:46 ◼   ► for what it's really great at.

01:11:48 ◼   ► I still use my iPad for more stuff,

01:11:50 ◼   ► but I feel like I am also constantly reevaluating

01:11:55 ◼   ► that part of it, which is,

01:11:56 ◼   ► am I willing to like get an iPad mini instead?

01:12:01 ◼   ► What does that mean?

01:12:02 ◼   ► It probably means that I'm gonna either try to do some work

01:12:04 ◼   ► on the iPad mini, which is probably not great,

01:12:07 ◼   ► but it's possible. - But it's not a great

01:12:07 ◼   ► experience to really do work on the iPad mini.

01:12:09 ◼   ► - But it means then that I'm using my MacBook Air

01:12:13 ◼   ► to do that, and do I wanna do that?

01:12:15 ◼   ► I'm very happy to very rarely use my MacBook Air

01:12:19 ◼   ► sitting on my couch or in bed, right?

01:12:22 ◼   ► Like I only do that when I absolutely must do it.

01:12:27 ◼   ► And I like that when I'm not traveling.

01:12:32 ◼   ► But I think about it, right?

01:12:36 ◼   ► I definitely do think about it.

01:12:38 ◼   ► - I mean, it was also for me as a way to try

01:12:40 ◼   ► and stop myself from doing like work at home as well.

01:12:45 ◼   ► Right, so like now I do have to grab my laptop

01:12:50 ◼   ► to do something work-related that's serious.

01:12:52 ◼   ► - So you built a barrier.

01:12:53 ◼   ► - So I built a barrier.

01:12:54 ◼   ► I mean, all the work apps are on my iPad

01:12:55 ◼   ► the same way as they're on my iPhone,

01:12:57 ◼   ► but it's more like checking in on stuff

01:13:00 ◼   ► as opposed to like getting active in a thing,

01:13:02 ◼   ► you know, in those devices.

01:13:04 ◼   ► But I'm not home anyway. - Right, and for me,

01:13:06 ◼   ► the barrier has been more, yeah, I could open my MacBook Air,

01:13:09 ◼   ► but the barrier has often been like,

01:13:11 ◼   ► if I'm gonna do that, I might as well just come out

01:13:13 ◼   ► into the office and turn on the computer

01:13:14 ◼   ► and use it out here.

01:13:16 ◼   ► And that's enough of a barrier that sometimes it prevents me

01:13:18 ◼   ► from working when I'm not supposed to be working.

01:13:21 ◼   ► And that's a good thing.

01:13:23 ◼   ► Yeah, and having a MacBook Air attached to a studio display

01:13:26 ◼   ► like in my house in another room is a interesting,

01:13:31 ◼   ► like it's a lower barrier.

01:13:33 ◼   ► So that's kind of interesting of like,

01:13:34 ◼   ► do I just pop into the back room where the MacBook Air

01:13:37 ◼   ► is attached to a keyboard and a monitor

01:13:40 ◼   ► and like wake it up and go on a computer

01:13:42 ◼   ► and then go back to sleep?

01:13:44 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:13:46 ◼   ► But yeah, the iPad, to wrap this up, like the iPad,

01:13:51 ◼   ► I only wrote this article and I think it came across

01:13:55 ◼   ► given the hacker news and stuff like that,

01:13:57 ◼   ► like it was like, oh, trying to get attention.

01:13:58 ◼   ► It was like, literally it was Friday morning,

01:14:01 ◼   ► I was at my mom's house, I was flying back that night

01:14:03 ◼   ► and I thought, I'm gonna sit down and do some work.

01:14:06 ◼   ► What am I gonna write about?

01:14:07 ◼   ► And I had just been thinking in the shower

01:14:09 ◼   ► about the fact that I brought these two computers

01:14:12 ◼   ► and was using them.

01:14:13 ◼   ► And once I had my MacBook Air,

01:14:16 ◼   ► I did my work on the MacBook Air instead of on the iPad Pro

01:14:20 ◼   ► because I had it, I had it, so why not use it to do work

01:14:24 ◼   ► that I would normally do on the Mac?

01:14:26 ◼   ► And I thought, well, I'll just write that up.

01:14:27 ◼   ► And that was literally my point in doing it.

01:14:29 ◼   ► It's just noticing that a thing about myself

01:14:32 ◼   ► that I hadn't really recognized,

01:14:34 ◼   ► or I recognized but I hadn't thought through

01:14:36 ◼   ► and written about, which is that that's where the iPad

01:14:39 ◼   ► is shifted for me, is I'm no longer willing

01:14:42 ◼   ► to be an iPad astronaut, right?

01:14:44 ◼   ► And push the boundaries and go out there

01:14:46 ◼   ► where no one has gone before and say,

01:14:48 ◼   ► did you know this thing?

01:14:50 ◼   ► Like a daredevil, like I said before,

01:14:51 ◼   ► because it's there, I have to do it.

01:14:54 ◼   ► And I feel like lots of us are at that point

01:14:57 ◼   ► where it's sort of like, I like the iPad,

01:14:59 ◼   ► but I'm not gonna try to make it into what it's not

01:15:03 ◼   ► because Apple seems to have an idea of what it's not.

01:15:06 ◼   ► And even if I wish it was that thing, Apple says it's not.

01:15:11 ◼   ► So it's not, and that's okay.

01:15:13 ◼   ► (upbeat music)

01:15:16 ◼   ► - This code is brought to you by DeleteMe.

01:15:19 ◼   ► Everybody wants to keep their personal information personal,

01:15:23 ◼   ► their private information private, right?

01:15:26 ◼   ► That's why it can be uncomfortable to think about the fact

01:15:29 ◼   ► that data brokers can be out there who might make,

01:15:33 ◼   ► who do in fact make a business selling people's data,

01:15:36 ◼   ► especially if they're selling your data.

01:15:39 ◼   ► The good news is you do have the right to stay private

01:15:43 ◼   ► and protect your privacy.

01:15:45 ◼   ► All you have to do, simple,

01:15:48 ◼   ► is contact all of the potential data brokers

01:15:50 ◼   ► out there in the world that might have your information

01:15:52 ◼   ► to check that you're not on their system

01:15:54 ◼   ► and then submit requests to be removed if you are.

01:15:58 ◼   ► Now, I don't know about you,

01:15:59 ◼   ► but I don't have the time to hunt down

01:16:01 ◼   ► all the various data brokers that might exist in the world

01:16:03 ◼   ► that may or may not be selling my personal information.

01:16:06 ◼   ► Well, that is where DeleteMe comes in

01:16:08 ◼   ► because they do it all for you.

01:16:10 ◼   ► DeleteMe helps you purge personal information

01:16:12 ◼   ► that has been captured by data brokers

01:16:14 ◼   ► like your name, address, age, phone numbers,

01:16:17 ◼   ► email addresses, and more,

01:16:19 ◼   ► and it does this by removing them from the source.

01:16:22 ◼   ► You submit the information that you'd like them to search for

01:16:25 ◼   ► and they'll do the rest.

01:16:28 ◼   ► My personal information is important to me.

01:16:30 ◼   ► I like an element of privacy online,

01:16:33 ◼   ► even though I'm a public person online.

01:16:35 ◼   ► I feel like this is the same for all of us these days.

01:16:37 ◼   ► You want to be open with the world

01:16:40 ◼   ► with the things you want to be open about,

01:16:41 ◼   ► but you also want to keep

01:16:42 ◼   ► your personal information private and sphere.

01:16:45 ◼   ► I've gone through and signed up for DeleteMe

01:16:48 ◼   ► and I found this process to be very simple.

01:16:49 ◼   ► They make it very clear what they're asking you for

01:16:51 ◼   ► and why they want it,

01:16:53 ◼   ► and you can just put in as much as you want.

01:16:54 ◼   ► Like I was able to put in all the information

01:16:57 ◼   ► that I wanted to check for,

01:16:58 ◼   ► the information that I wasn't interested

01:17:00 ◼   ► in having them search for, I just didn't provide it.

01:17:02 ◼   ► And then they go out there into the internet

01:17:04 ◼   ► and find out who has that information,

01:17:06 ◼   ► and then they're going to help me get rid of it,

01:17:09 ◼   ► which I'm excited about.

01:17:10 ◼   ► You can now get 20% off your DeleteMe plan

01:17:13 ◼   ► when you go to joindeleteme.com/upgrade20

01:17:17 ◼   ► and use the promo code upgrade20.

01:17:20 ◼   ► The only way to get 20% off

01:17:22 ◼   ► is to go to joindeleteme.com/upgrade20

01:17:26 ◼   ► and enter the promo code upgrade20 at checkout.

01:17:29 ◼   ► That is J-O-I-N-D-E-L-E-T-E-M-E.com/upgrade20

01:17:34 ◼   ► with the promo code upgrade20 for 20% off.

01:17:39 ◼   ► Our thanks to DeleteMe for their support of this show

01:17:41 ◼   ► and Relay FM.

01:17:43 ◼   ► The books, books.

01:17:48 ◼   ► - Books?

01:17:49 ◼   ► - Books, B-O-O-X.

01:17:50 ◼   ► - Books.

01:17:51 ◼   ► - Palmer.

01:17:52 ◼   ► Like the palm of your hand with an A on the end.

01:17:55 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:17:56 ◼   ► - What on earth, Jason, is the books Palmer?

01:17:59 ◼   ► - I want to turn this around and say,

01:18:00 ◼   ► Mike, I showed this to you in Memphis.

01:18:02 ◼   ► What was your reaction when I showed this thing to you?

01:18:04 ◼   ► Because I remembered being something like, what is that?

01:18:07 ◼   ► - That was my reaction.

01:18:09 ◼   ► I could not believe this thing that you were showing me,

01:18:11 ◼   ► which was an e-ink phone.

01:18:16 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:18:17 ◼   ► Yeah, so for a couple of years now, this company,

01:18:21 ◼   ► this Chinese company, Books,

01:18:23 ◼   ► has been sending me these Android-based e-readers

01:18:26 ◼   ► because I really, like I said in the last segment,

01:18:28 ◼   ► I really liked the idea that could I expand,

01:18:32 ◼   ► like what frustrates me about the Kindle and the Kobo

01:18:34 ◼   ► is that they are dedicated readers

01:18:37 ◼   ► and yet I end up reading all morning on my iPad

01:18:39 ◼   ► when I'm waking up and having my tea and eating my breakfast,

01:18:44 ◼   ► I'm reading on my iPad and I like my iPad,

01:18:46 ◼   ► but like I have this whole other device for reading.

01:18:48 ◼   ► Why am I not reading on that?

01:18:49 ◼   ► And the answer is because the Kindle and the Kobo,

01:18:52 ◼   ► they don't run apps.

01:18:53 ◼   ► They only run, Kobo has Pocket.

01:18:56 ◼   ► So that's something you can read articles on the Kobo,

01:19:00 ◼   ► but like they don't run apps.

01:19:02 ◼   ► So can I read my RSS feeds on a Kindle or a Kobo?

01:19:07 ◼   ► I cannot.

01:19:07 ◼   ► Can I read newspapers or magazines that have websites?

01:19:12 ◼   ► There is an experimental web browser, still experimental,

01:19:15 ◼   ► but like it's terrible and not e-ink optimized

01:19:18 ◼   ► and forget it, but they have like, there are apps for those

01:19:20 ◼   ► and I enjoy using those apps on my iPad.

01:19:23 ◼   ► So if you built a Kindle out of Android,

01:19:28 ◼   ► it would have apps on it.

01:19:31 ◼   ► And this company has been trying this.

01:19:33 ◼   ► The problem is that every Android app,

01:19:35 ◼   ► there's two problems, big problems.

01:19:36 ◼   ► One is every Android app is made for a phone screen

01:19:41 ◼   ► with high refresh rate and color.

01:19:43 ◼   ► The e-ink, there is color e-ink now,

01:19:45 ◼   ► and they do have a product that is color e-ink

01:19:48 ◼   ► and color e-ink is surprisingly better than it.

01:19:51 ◼   ► It's not bad.

01:19:53 ◼   ► You can't watch video on it, but it's actually not bad.

01:19:56 ◼   ► And the refresh rates are getting better for e-ink,

01:19:58 ◼   ► but the fact is e-ink doesn't do color 60 frames a second,

01:20:02 ◼   ► let alone 120, right?

01:20:04 ◼   ► It just doesn't do it.

01:20:05 ◼   ► Problem number two, by the way,

01:20:06 ◼   ► is all of these are Kindle sized.

01:20:09 ◼   ► So they're all tablet sized in terms of Android.

01:20:12 ◼   ► And you're not gonna believe this.

01:20:13 ◼   ► You may not have heard this before, Mike,

01:20:15 ◼   ► but Android tablet apps suck.

01:20:19 ◼   ► - No way. - They're bad.

01:20:21 ◼   ► There are some that are okay,

01:20:22 ◼   ► but like they're not very good.

01:20:26 ◼   ► They're just not very good.

01:20:28 ◼   ► They do weird things when confronted with a larger screen

01:20:31 ◼   ► because most Android users by far, 99%.

01:20:34 ◼   ► I mean, the percentage of iPhone to iPad,

01:20:38 ◼   ► it's mostly iPhones,

01:20:39 ◼   ► but the percentage of Android phones to Android tablets,

01:20:43 ◼   ► it might as well be 100%.

01:20:45 ◼   ► Really.

01:20:46 ◼   ► So when things get big, things get weird on Android.

01:20:51 ◼   ► So I get this company is so eager.

01:20:56 ◼   ► They're like, "Yeah, we'll send you, we got a new one."

01:20:59 ◼   ► They sent me the first one and I was like, "I'll try it, sure."

01:21:01 ◼   ► And I wrote it and I basically was like,

01:21:02 ◼   ► "You know what, this hardware is pretty good,

01:21:04 ◼   ► but the software is a mess and it doesn't work very well."

01:21:07 ◼   ► And the apps aren't optimized for E Ink,

01:21:09 ◼   ► so they smudge or they're like all gray scale and weird

01:21:12 ◼   ► and the experience is bad and you can't,

01:21:14 ◼   ► you turn a page and other than the apps that are included,

01:21:17 ◼   ► that nothing happens.

01:21:18 ◼   ► And so you end up having to do like a finger scroll

01:21:20 ◼   ► on E Ink, which is real bad, right?

01:21:23 ◼   ► Because it's just slow refresh rate and smudging as it goes.

01:21:28 ◼   ► It's bad.

01:21:31 ◼   ► And I wrote about it.

01:21:32 ◼   ► And I thought, well, I'm never hearing from those guys again.

01:21:35 ◼   ► And I actually said, "Here's the link to the story

01:21:37 ◼   ► and let me know, I'll send back your product

01:21:39 ◼   ► and there you go."

01:21:41 ◼   ► And instead they're like, "Great, thanks.

01:21:43 ◼   ► We'll send you more."

01:21:44 ◼   ► I'm like, "Okay."

01:21:45 ◼   ► They're like up for it.

01:21:46 ◼   ► - This is just what we wanted.

01:21:48 ◼   ► - But the truth is, I mean, they're looking for coverage

01:21:50 ◼   ► and it wasn't the most positive coverage,

01:21:52 ◼   ► but it gets their name out there.

01:21:53 ◼   ► And the truth is they have improved it a lot.

01:21:55 ◼   ► They have done a lot of things to Android

01:21:57 ◼   ► to try and make it so that you can tap and hold on an app

01:22:00 ◼   ► and tap on optimize.

01:22:02 ◼   ► And it is trying to hack that app to be more contrast

01:22:07 ◼   ► and to use volume buttons as page up, page down buttons

01:22:13 ◼   ► whenever possible.

01:22:14 ◼   ► And that gets you something that is more appropriate

01:22:17 ◼   ► for an E Ink reader.

01:22:18 ◼   ► So they've been improving it as they go.

01:22:21 ◼   ► Their tablet that does color had pretty good software.

01:22:25 ◼   ► The color was weird, but okay, but it was heavy and big.

01:22:29 ◼   ► And I didn't really like it because of that.

01:22:31 ◼   ► And I was thinking, "How am I gonna write about this one?"

01:22:33 ◼   ► And all of a sudden they're like,

01:22:35 ◼   ► "We'd like to send you this thing."

01:22:37 ◼   ► And it's a phone with an E Ink screen.

01:22:40 ◼   ► And it's not a phone.

01:22:41 ◼   ► It doesn't have cellular capability,

01:22:42 ◼   ► but otherwise it's a phone with an E Ink screen.

01:22:45 ◼   ► It's got a side button on one side

01:22:47 ◼   ► and it's got volume up and down,

01:22:48 ◼   ► and then another button, a power button on the other side.

01:22:51 ◼   ► It's got a camera in the back, which is the most,

01:22:53 ◼   ► they have an app called the document scanner,

01:22:55 ◼   ► but it's very clear they're using

01:22:56 ◼   ► an Android phone reference platform here, right?

01:22:58 ◼   ► And then putting an E Ink screen on it.

01:23:00 ◼   ► So they've collected all these,

01:23:01 ◼   ► like would they have chosen to put a camera on it?

01:23:04 ◼   ► Like maybe, but it's really there

01:23:07 ◼   ► because they inherited a camera

01:23:08 ◼   ► from whatever phone platform they're using

01:23:11 ◼   ► as the basis of this thing.

01:23:12 ◼   ► And so they've got document scanner app,

01:23:14 ◼   ► which is just the camera app.

01:23:16 ◼   ► It does by default, it scans it into like a PDF

01:23:19 ◼   ► or something like that.

01:23:20 ◼   ► But I took a picture of you with it.

01:23:22 ◼   ► - It was fun.

01:23:24 ◼   ► - Yeah, and it shows you as a dithered black and white

01:23:28 ◼   ► on the mic. - Maniac, honestly.

01:23:30 ◼   ► - Yeah, so it's a, you know, it's weird

01:23:34 ◼   ► because it is a phone, like the headline says,

01:23:37 ◼   ► it's a phone shaped e-reader.

01:23:39 ◼   ► It's a 6.13 diagonal E Ink screen running Android 11.

01:23:44 ◼   ► And I took it with me on my trip to Memphis